In retreat
The Met appears to be in headlong retreat this morning. The acting commissioner has just appointed a chief constable to carry out an urgent review of the handling of the arrest of Damian Green and the Home Office mole. The question it needs to answer is how an everyday Whitehall drama has been turned into a major constitutional crisis.
As I reported the other day, the police took the view that they had to arrest the Tory frontbencher for the same reasons that they had arrested Ruth Turner in the cash for honours investigation.
In other words, in order to gain access to computer hardware, mobile phones and documents an arrest was necessary because the individual was unlikely to volunteer the material. Not so, say some police insiders. The production of a warrant would have done the trick, or better still, an invitation to the individual to cooperate or face the embarrassment of a warrant or an arrest. The Met have made the first move. We now wait to see how the Speaker will react.
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Were the police armed that raided the MP's office?
Did they have valid warrant for the search?
How many checks where made ?
How long did they wait to gain entry ?
We have state opening of parliament this week, you cant have people in parliament without valid checking, remember guy fawkes
Post 9-11, post Taj terrors we cant have terrorist squad (anti-) gaining easy entry to parliament under any circumstances
this is outrageous....
MPs are worried about thier correspondance with thier voters, they should be worried about the security of thier lives
;)
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Mr Galley's side of this story is now clear:
• He did give "regular" leaks to Mr Green;
• All of it was what his lawyer O'May describes as "embarrassment material" and not documents that would be covered by the Official Secrets Act such as those relating to state secrets, terrorism, national security or which would lead to "financial jeopardy";
• There were no "inducements" offered by Mr Green to persuade Mr Galley to leak (his lawyer said that "the statement was clear re inducements" and it makes no mention of them);
• He would have been happy to confess all to the police if they'd simply asked him rather than sending seven officers to his house to arrest him and then question him for 17 hours.
From your previous post
I would suggest that you too are now in headlong retreat.
This is what happens when you take the Mandelson Campbell Brown Smith line
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I really do hope there will be some sort of independent oversight into this appalling shambles especially given the points raised in your blog yesterday regarding the rather self serving comments made by applicants for the Met Police commissioner role. This sort of bull in a China shop police methodology needs to be stopped in its tracks.
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So the Met went for the sledgehammer option as the method of first choice? Plain heavy handiness or deliberate attempt to maximise embarrassment of the Opposition?
The officer conducting the enquiry, Ian Johnston, will know that his actions & report will be under the closest scrutiny. Any hint of a whitewash will be jumped upon I am sure.
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The Home Secretary needs to act as well. She doesn't seem to be able to answer the straight forwards question "did you know Damian Green was one of the subjects of the investigation".
Until the government come out and answer all the "grey areas", effectively the list of questions put to them by Dominic Grieve - then we do not know to what extent the police were acting under political instruction.
Gordon Brown should either come out and make a very clear and definitive statement or announce a review of government to mirror the internal investigation within the Police.
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Surely the Police must already know who leant on them to make the arrest?
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"Put not your faith in princes (or princesses)" is the lesson learned the hard way for Stephenson and Quick... tough luck about the Commissioner job boys, but that's showbiz.
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Now Damien Green has been 'arrested' he won't be able to travel to the USA. Not on a tourist visa anyhow.
As a potential future Home Secretary what will his status then be?
Exempt?
GC
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Oh for goodness sake......
How exactly is this everyday Whitehall drama has been turned into a major constitutional crisis.
Get a grip man
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Nick
Why no mention on the govt trying to whitewash what the Speaker will say?
I find it a disgrace that they are trying to find a united "story" to cover themselves
Labour are in disarray
Gordon Brown's silence has been deafening
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And so the back-pedalling begins
The ministers refused to comment on a police issue - I can understand that, we just had to wait and see what turned up - but now it is time to stop hiding behind that, clearly Green wasn't selling nuclear secrets to Russia
so it seems the leaks had nothing to do with national security and the fears we initially had were warranted - the extreme fear that Labour have started using the police in a stalinist way is over the top (and idiotic as they should've stifled the free press first, obviously) - but the police have clearly overstepped the mark and once again all these counter terror measures have sent a warning shot across our bow
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9 Guycroft
He wouldn't be visiting the US as a tourist if he's there as a minister would he?
I doubt it's likely he needs to travel to the US as he isn't in the foreign office, and I'm sure governments can get immunity from such things anyway
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Nick, in yesterdays update you reported that the head of ACPO, Ken Jones, had given his support to the way the Home Office and the Met had acted in this matter.
Today we hear that the Met has engaged Ken Jones to carry out a review of the way the matter was handled.
Have the comments from yesterday not prejudged the matter?
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Nick thankyou for the update. Ignore the idiots who try to say you tow the Campbell, Mandelson line. They just get over excited.
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10 Carrots
ask the police, it was an everyday drama until they decided to arrest an MP, an unprecedented move (with regards to leaking issues) - that's incredibly scary
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The Tories sought political gain from leaks and now they've been caught in the act they don't like the political fallout. Golly, what a surprise. How is this a constitutional crisis? It's not. It's just a case that some parliamentary blowhard got rumbled and is being treated like a lot of people who are on the receiving end of the law.
If politicians applied a more reason in their analysis and were more sensitive to the effects that their policies and attitudes have on other people things would be better. This should teach them something. In the meantime, Green should resign and the Tories should apologise because they haven't learned a thing.
How is it that someone like Norman Lamont gets hired for his inside influence with companies like Phorm, that intent to hijack our private data and sell it to the highest bidder, when legitimate protestors get their ISP accounts closed and complaints muzzled? Is this, yet again, one rule for the Tory party and one for the rest of us?
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Once again you get it wrong. The Police did not have to arrest Damien Green. They could have done the same as they did with kid gloves Tony Blair and questioned him. Instead they went in with kick boots and all, and now they look like right idiots. But I do not blame the officers, just like I don't blame the officers at the centre of the stockwell shootings. I blame their bosses who might as well become politicians.
Nick you’re a clever man and see that this was started by ZaNulabour or maybe you are bias as hundreds of people who pay their BBC licence have stated since Thursday. If your bosses read your blogs they must be worried about the amount of criticism you are getting.
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@9
GC we could put him in a diplomatic bag, they are exempt :-)
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#9. guycroft
Surely merely being arrested is not a bar to entry to the US. Being convicted of a crime is something totally different.
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The questions that have to be answered are , who instigated the arrest. what was the departing Ian Blair's role in the affair, and the most important question, did Jaqui Smith sanction the arrest , and if not, why was she not aware of what was going on in her own department. The whole setup smells of either ministerial intrigue or downright incompetence. No doubt at the end of all the enquiries and lies, those responsible will walk away squeaky clean and the police will be blamed as usual. Though I suspect the police were pushed into the position they now find themselves in.
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It's just another political 'snow job'.
Cameron will not be able to bang the desk on Wednesday because Brown and Martin will just leer about it being a police matter and they should wait for the report.
Job done.
Back to the statistics factory.
Meanwhile the economy is in flames. And the 'solution', to spend a mere 500,000,000,000 quid we don't have to 'keep up appearances' in case our European neighbours think we're poor or something, requires us all to imagine that this mother of recessions will be over in six months time. Hey, we're already half-way through. It's not so bad. Yeah. Right.
So, that's 500,000,000,000 quid to buy our way through a four quarter recession then. Phew. Good job it's only a 'mild' recession. And there was me thinking it'd be the biggest one in sixty years. Don't recall who told me that.
And what if it turns out to be (say) an eight or twelve quarter recession? When do we stop spending money we don't have?
No answer. All we can look forward to is more of the same. 'Bullingdon Club', 'Tory Toff', 'Do nothing Party', 'Started in America', 'Uniquely placed'. Blah blah.
All dutifully reported into the nations homes by the BBC.
Oooooh, we're sooo lucky to have an independent service like the BBC. Not like them poor sods in Soviet Russia with propaganda shoved down their throat all day.
I bet they wished they had the good ol' BBC to help them with their thinking.
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Re comment 10: The reason that this "Whitehall drama" has caused such a furore is that a self righteous Cabinet minister in a self-righteous government has been caught trying to suppress leaks about the appalling inefficiency of her own department, while at the same time proposing a further tightening of the leash around the citizen's neck.
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Does anyone know if there will be a PMQ tomorrow?
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#11. mr moe
I'd love to be a fly on the wall at that not so private meeting with the interested parties Harriet's holding today. Perhaps whoever they are 'grooming' for the chief Commissioner job ought to sit in as well.
Harriet, Jaqui and Jill won't be talking about what they'll be wearing for the Queen's speech ("the Armani? Perhaps not in these difficult times...") — that's for sure!
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@16
I take it that you dont think Nick is also in headlong backpedalling retreat then.
Time to wake up and smell the coffee
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The body language of everyone in government i have seen interviewed has said to me " we knew what was going on "
Ms Smiths point blank refusal to answer a straight question was the icing on the cake.
It is the fact that all of the documents mentioned were only of embarrassment value that gets me, if they had been doing there job these should have already been in the public domain.We are not as dumb as they think we are, all it makes us think is what else are they hiding ???
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The more this unravels......
It confirms the Police are out of control.
That the Government continue to abuse
Parliament and all it stands for.
So now we go to SCAPEGOAT MODE.
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Dear Nick
This is entirely the fault of the speaker who allowed access to Parliament.
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The Brown Pimpernel
They seek him here
They seek him there
The electorate seek him everywhere
Is he is Heaven, or is he in Hell?
That damned infernal Brown Pimpernel
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What we know so far, Mr Galley, over a prelonged period gave an opposition MP (DG) information.
So Mr Galley has breached his terms of employment and committed an illegal act.
What we dont know is, what type of information Mr Galley gave to the opposition.
Its not difficult, Mr Galley knew he was committing an illegal act.
So the police are inverstigating an illegal act (fact)
All the tories have done, is set a dangerous
precedence, where the police have to conduct an internal investigation about how they investigate, Jeez, you couldn't make it up.
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Dear All, and # 1,
The raid was carried out by anti-terror police and would, therefore, be armed to the teeth. MP5's, PPK's and stun grenades.
Standard issue assault clothing would have been worn complete with balaclavas, Kevlar helmets and army style assault boots.
Do you think a bit over kill or not enough, considering the robustness of some of our honourable members?
"What out, I think he's got a prawn sandwich!"
Xxxx
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#18
when legitimate protestors get their ISP accounts closed and complaints muzzled
I seem to remember you actually championing such behaviour a few weeks back. Par for the course though.
Your views are to be promulgated as wisdom sent from heaven whereas those who disagree with you should be air-brushed from history.
Very Nu-Labour.
'Bullington Club', 'Tory Toffs', 'Do nothing Party', 'Margaret Thatcher', 'Started in America', 'Leading the world'...blah blah.
That acrid smell? That's the UK's economy in meltdown. Or Mandelson. Hard to be sure.
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So, no mention of Harriet Harman convening a meeting to direct tomorrow's statement from the Speaker??
Or do you buy her line that the meeting is purely procedural to discuss the logistics of holding the statement on the same day as the Queen's speech...??
Of course you don't. No-one with a shred of common sense does...
Why would the Home Secretary & Justice Secretary be invited to such a trivial meeting? Don't they have more important things to do than discuss the seating and lunch arrangements for tomorrow??
It's a clear case of them attempting to concoct a story to cover themselves... If Labour are so keen for police investigations to run their course, shouldn't Harman's little cabal be investigated for an attempt to pervert the course of justice??
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For the home secretary to deny prior knowledge is difficult to believe. If she did not know, she should have known, that is her job.
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Hmmmm, so today, we have the Police investigating the Police?
I expect that yesterday's great statement that "No one is above the law" also applies to the Police. Could someone please remind them that fact.
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Given the Harriet Harman e-mail, surely we will have to wait to see how Harriet wants the speaker to react.
Just plain risible stuff.
I know he is the "Speaker", but he does not have to behave like a peice of dumb electronics just muthing the words of the executive.
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#28
If they'd been doing their job, there wouldn't have been any embarrassing documents to leak.
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#18
Charles, always good value for an amusing interlude. Keep up the good work.
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@32
Dirk, If you actually read the above blog you would know what type of information was leaked.
Keep up!
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The whole thing is a travesty of inappropriate action by the police.
I am intrigued to know also why so many are freemasons?
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Nick,
'an everyday Whitehall drama' ???? ..... Are the police raiding MP's offices commonplace then?
Please .... tell us more
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In the real world: the investigation was launched because of leaks in a highly sensitive department. Of the leaks that are public domain, the police just followed the evidence and caught Damien Green. From that, it looks like investigations are ongoing into leaks that may have a bearing on national security.
In any case, the Damien Green leaks are mere tittle tattle compared to the ones some Tories are saying Labour took advantage of when they were in opposition. How can you compare administrative noise to something like the Tories shutting down the welfare system?
There's mistakes and fudges in every business and private life. Some measure of privacy is needed otherwise nobody would take risks or bullys would just take advantage. I don't see why government is so different. If the Tories are so convinced, perhaps, they'd like to publish all their policies and discussion documents?
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Charles @18...
I interpret from your post that you promote the view that there should be nothing allowed to emanate from Government that the proles might dislike....
quote..
" The Tories sought political gain from leaks and now they've been caught in the act they don't like the political fallout. Golly, what a surprise. How is this a constitutional crisis? It's not. It's just a case that some parliamentary blowhard got rumbled "
Rumbled for what?Obtaining material that is in the public interest,and releasing it?
Of course,you will never agree that this is precisely what all Opposition Parties have been doing since time immemorial.Do you deny that Brown did all of the things you so 'despise' when he was in Opposition?
Or is it that there should be one rule for Labour,and another for all other parties?
Charles..just be graceful for once,and admit to your inability to be reasonable.
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#28
We are not as dumb as they think we are, all it makes us think is what else are they hiding ???
It doesn't matter if you are not as dumb as they'd like you to be. What matters is getting their 'message' across to the voters who are as dumb as they'd like you to be.
Which means that the truth has to be controlled. And only presented in a certain light and from a certain angle. Or plain hidden if it's an ugly truth.
And if it's a really ugly truth then supressesd with all vigour.
Indeed, when you come down to it, and you have a liberal arts education, the truth is just a matter of interpretation so we'll just tell them what we'd like the truth to be and reverse engineer the paperwork.
Hence the latest PBR and projected 'end' of this recession for example. Gordon Brown's annual budget statements for the last decade for another.
The Iraq dossier for another.
It has now become such second nature they don't even realise they're doing anything wrong. But they still hate and fear the truth with a passion hence this parliamentary witch-hunt of Galley and Green.
And there is always plan B. Smear the leaker. Or the opposition.
Or Plan C. Announce an inquiry. A very serious enquiry. An enquiry that will report at some point in the future during a parliamentary recess. Ideally a long time in the future. With terms of reference defined by us. And a report that we won't release. Secret doncha know.
It'd be funny if it wasn't so true. Or is it that it's funny because it is so true?
Take your pick.
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#18
Charles, congratulations for writing the biggest load of tripe I've yet read among these posts. Go back and read post #7 and note that none of those leaks resulted in arrest. I only spell that out for you because apparently you do need to be taught how to suck eggs.
As to criticisms of Nicks reporting on the matter, well you can't please all of the people all of the time. I for one, find Nick's approach very good as I prefer my news not to be laced with personal opinion, preferring to make my own mind up. Nick's reporting has been appropriate all of the way considering the facts available at any given time. It's refreshing to see a journalist who doesn't consider himself to be judge, jury and executioner.
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#38
I know he is the "Speaker", but he does not have to behave like a peice of dumb electronics just muthing the words of the executive.
Clearly you've never seen the guy in action.
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#32 derekbarker
Are you seriously trying to say that the police have NEVER set up an internal review to monitor their investigation techniques in a particular case????
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I think the speaker will react by saying
"it would inappropriate to comment until the police have completed their review and investigation"
This review has bought them more time in the hope it will all be quietly toned down to the point that it's forgotten.
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Just wish the Met had done this when the scullduggery was going on over the war to Iraq. Imagine the headlines 'New Labour Ministers raided in commons' Ooooo it would have been so nice to see.
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18 CEH
For the same reason that ex-Labour ministers do?
Glass houses etc.
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obangobang
Charles must be taking tips from the Business secretary. :-)
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29 Alexandercurzon
Bang on - we are now definitely in Scapegoat mode!!
The government are not making clear ministerial actions and knowledge over this affair.
Instead the government are engineering a "Scapegoat Stand-Off" between The Speaker and The Met police.
That gives two nice weak-links in the chain for the government to exploit:
1. The met police has a temporary boss. If he carries the blame - then the solution is easy - he doesn't get made full time boss.
or
2. The Speaker is blamed for not following parliamentary procedure. He announces his resignation and a review of parliamentary procedures (as per the 'secret' meeting agenda this afternoon).
Either way - the Government get to avoid explaining what knowledge Minister's had regarding the investigation of Green.
Once the scapegoat is delivered - the media will move on and Labour's inappropriate political control of opponents will be forgotten.
New Labour. New Morals.
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It was strange how the Home Secretary seemed to morph into the Head of Child Services at Haringey - the same sort of hackneyed phrases saying "it's not me gov".
The police need us to help them or so they keep telling us, but the actions that have been taken in this case so obviously alienate a great many judging by the bloggers over the last few days.
There is a sinister feel to this - if it can happen to an MP who obtains information that embarrasses the government (that should have been in the public domain anyway if the FOI worked properly) then what hope the rest of us who object to what the government do in our name.
And Nick, you have not made reference to the cosy little get together that Harriet Harman has called to ensure the Speaker gets his words right on Wednesday. Surely all parties should be represented in what is so obviously a cross party issue.
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If/when the Tories ever win another election, I presume Cameron and Co will be perfectly happy when any Labour supporter in the Civil Service starts leaking documents with the sort of gay abandon that the current 'mole' has been?
Oh no, sorry - I forgot, if you leak under a Tory Government you get thrown in jail don't you.
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#pot_kettle
I am not exactly sure if Nick is backpedalling. Actually I think as facts emerge he is giving the latest insight. However because you cannot fing any Nu-lab bias in it you describe it as back-pedaling. You can really interpret any blog how ever you want. I have disagreed with him many times. Thats not my problem.
My problem is with the amount of bloggers and there are a LOT of you, who pour scorn over every article he produces. I think we should concentrate on the debate at hand, not just shout 'LABOUR SPIN!' at everything produced. Its pretty boring.
Do you really think Nick has time to be briefed by Mandelson/Campbell before every blog as some claim. People do know that this blog is only part of his job at the BBC.
I may be thought of as naive but I just think that the author deserves a shade more respect.
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whatever happened to innocent before proven guilty?
Whatever happened to a vote of no confidence?
Whatever is happening elsewhere in the news?!
Oh yes, just saw through a break in the smoke screen-the country is on it's knees!
Never mind, a good gossip and moan lifts us out of the doldrums.
That's alright then!
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18 Charles_Hawtree
Tory rules???? Apologise? learned Nothing?
Do you actually know which party are in power at the moment ?
I have to say that it was good to see a post from you that I could actually understand, and if you swapped the word "Tory" for "Government" then I would actually agree with you. And that really would be a constitutional crisis!
Keep up the good work CEH, and I hope to see another post I can understand soon.
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9 officers to arrest a tory mp-
tough on crime
tough on the causes of crime
I WISH
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Nick
What is really depressing is that whenever I need to find out what the Government spin on an issue is, all I need to do is read your blog. First reaction on Damian Green's arrest said: what about Ruth Turner? (even though the situations were totally different, and Tony Blair would have been a far better comparison)
Second reaction was, Damian Green was "grooming" the civil servant. Then that there were 20 cases being investigated etc. Yet never really an attempt to question whether the objections were valid. Did you not think to ask if there were 20 leaks in all, in some of which the security of the country might have been at issue, what precisely those leaks were. If they had been leaked they were no longer secret so mentioning them in public would change nothing. If they refused to mention them on the grounds that they were not already in the public domain - as inevitably they would - then obviously security had not been breached.
Like all the other excuses the Government spin has simply been a smokescreen. But there it is being faithfully presented by yourself as a genuine explanation of events.
Now that even the Met itself has admitted it got it very badly wrong, and that its behaviour was well nigh inexcusable, it would nice to hear that you were, at the least, over-generous to the Government spin machine.
Fascinating too to note the mauling Vernon Bogdanor is getting in the Guardian for trying to excuse police behaviour.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/02/damian-green-jacquismith?commentpage=1
Why do you not all just admit it was a total farce and that heads should roll?
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The PM's silence is deafening, where is Macavity Brown, our glorious leader?
A general election can't come soon enough to rid us of this odious government.
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The Met is in retreat and is now moving into into its other government appointed role of scapegoat. Meanwhile Nick, no comment from you about the government's clumsy and ill-informed attempt to stage-manage the Speaker's statement to the Commons tomorrow. They really do not get democracy and I think they have been genuinely shocked by the reaction of people of all political hues to this attempt to undermine our legislature. I hope they pay dearly for such abuses.
Today the Speaker and Prime Minister will receive my letters of complaint and protest about this grubby affair. I don't expect resignations to follow, but I'm confident that I will now appear on some covert database of dangerous and seditious subversives. What price my army officer's commission from Her Majesty?
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#22
did Jaqui Smith sanction the arrest , and if not, why was she not aware of what was going on in her own department.
And what about her two-step approach to avoiding answering whether she'd had Green bugged?
'Ms Smith - did you bug Mr Green'?
'I'd have to have signed a warrant to bug an MP'
'Did you sign such a warrant'?
'I don't comment on warrants I have or haven't signed'.
Wow.
What do you all think?
What a convoluted way of not answering a question eh?
One can only speculate why she constructed her non-answer in such a way. I do hope she gets another opportunity to (not) answer the question in the House.
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32 derek
Are you aware of Whistle Blower protection?
Let's hope this isn't revoked in the future.
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What is so embarassing about this for Nick is that several of the Sunday papers (Tory and no Tory), as well as his colleague Norman Smith, said that it was Labour who were pushing the Ruth Turner parallel.
Nick - I do not actually believe you are intrinsically biased. However sometimes being unbiased means being brave and taking your own view of things. This you consistently fail to do and are merely a conduit for the latest line of the spin machines on both sides of the political fence.
The issue here is not what was done - if there was suspicion of a party political mole or the planned political corruption of a department it should be investigated; the issue is how is was done. I expect a few quiet informal discussions between the police and Green could have resolved any question of a criminal investigation. I think the question of the mole's actions, given the nature of the information disclosed, is one for civil employment law, not criminal law.
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Nick,
so now we have a senior police officer doing an inquiry into a police inquiry into an MP.
Surely the Home Secretary is now going back on what she said only on Sunday. She should not be involved in this, so much for principles.
As for the government surely we will now be told, don't worry we are having an inquiry, so we must not prejudge the inquiry.
This is getting seriously bizarre. It is no wonder that the pound continues to fall. Can nobody imagine how this looks to foreign investors. We have a country going hugely into debt, which is fighting what many regard as illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and where now we have the police investigating an MP and raiding parliament.
Then there is a Prime Minister who cannot be found, as usual, when the going gets tough. Mind you he has got form. In the event of him being found he will probably say that everything is about the economy and that is what the government is fighting for, blah, blah. Oh, and you really won't expect me to comment on an on-going police inquiry.
Finally, we have an unelected member of the government, Lord Mandelson, apparently writing the Queens speech, you really can't make it up.
What with the electoral fraud, which has previously been revealed, that we have had nothing on cash-for-honours, and that even the Prime Minister has had no votes from any English for him, can you wonder why many consider this country a banana republic.
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The amount of scaremongering that appears in this blog is ridiculous.
I hope the BBC doesn't take the comments on this blog as the views of the wider British population because it's clearly just becoming a place where ranting loonies vent their anger - copying and pasting their views straight from the Daily Mail/Private Eye.
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The funniest thing about today's developments is that an email convening a "secret" meeting between Harriet Harman, Cabinet colleagues, House of Commons and the Speakers' officials, and the Cabinet Secretary, was sent by mistake to David Cameron's office. Apparently someone in his office has a name vaguely similar to the intended recipient.
This ought to be a lesson for Damian Green and any other of his colleagues tempted to set up risky arrangements to get suppressed Government information.
Don't bother. Just sit by your computer, and eventually the information will turn up by mistake in your email box...
Those who are worried that this Government is becoming Stalinist can perhaps take comfort from its continuing displays of gross incompetence and blundering.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nick,
one thing surprises me. Now we know that some statistics collected by the government should not have come into the public domain. So, why actually collect them if we should not be privy to them.
What exactly is the point of collecting the data, just so that it is there. Surely, if one bit of data is collected, then it should be in the public domain. Issue it all, so that we can all see the information, total freedom. If there are any secrets then the question has to be asked why? Why not tell us. Surely, if the conservatives are ever elected then they will have to have access to all the numbers?
You cannot justify the collecting of any data if you don't want to come into the public domain what you have found. Forexample, if only 1000 people come into the country then many would regard that as good news, so it would probably be published. If 100000 come into the country then that might not be so good, so don't publish.
Of course we should have a free and open society, what have the statisticians got to hide.
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Charles @44.
Frankly,Charles,I can't be bothered to even quote your posts any more..They have moved from the sublime to the ridiculous.
If you are around (which I doubt)when there is a change in Government from Labour (to for example, the Tories),and the same problem arises...what would you be saying?
Let me speculate.. "Tory Toffs ,that bludgeon the ordinary Man into submission are usurping their power to suppress information that should be in the public domain"..or some such stuff.
Charles,for one the loves to lecture everyone on politics ,you are indeed politically incompetent,as you do drop yourself in the quagmire so consistently.
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44 CEH
so your logic is that these matters are trivial compared to what was leaked in the 80s/90s?
that doesn't matter - these issues are probably not a matter of national security (as you hope they are) - and there is increasingly more evidence that this was over some trivial documents
the issue here is that an MP was arrested for what is increasingly looking like he was doing something in the public interest and the police have at least over reacted
in conclusion - you must be on the take to promote such callous denial
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#49
excellentcatblogger,
What I'm saying is, it's a clear cut case
Mr Galley knew he was breaching his terms of employment and committing an illegal act.
Mr Green MP, also knew that the use of Mr Galley as a government employee was an illegal act.
By the way! David Davis has said he sanctioned the leaks, as shadow HS, so there -fore, one must think at some point the leaks involved the detention of terrorist?
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@57
Respect is earned.
So blatantly following one sides breifings and not the other sides has lost Nock that respect.
Benefit of the doubt evaporated over the yacht affair and nothing has been done to re-earn that confidence
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56 Mark
Er, no. Didn't you read #7 organum?
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I have a proposal for a new serious crime. "Falsely claiming national security" if any minister or senior civil servant (or senior police officer) who claimed that national security was involved had to be prepared to back that and if found to be untruthful stood to face the same punishment as those they were accusing could have faced they may be a little less reckless in invoking these powers. There would also be a lot more public confidence in their pronouncements.
The simple act of using anti-terrorist police in these raids seems to be a way of suggesting that Damien Green is a traitor and we should condemn him out of hand. If an African nation had acted in this way our Government ministers would be backing UN action.
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It's all Boris's fault!
If he had not forced the duffer Blair out of his office then he wouldn't have run to his friend Jacqui and stirred up trouble!!
A bigger worry is the plotting between the Speaker, Government and Civil Service to carry out a whitewash.
So much for open and honest Government!
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#62
The PM's silence is deafening, where is Macavity Brown, our glorious leader?
His Supreme Sereneness is spending some time in his own beautiful mind. A land where an additional 500,000,000,000 of squandering produces an everlasting green meadows of votes.
His feet dabbling in the lake of infinite liquidity and perpetual summer.
A land where the grateful populace cry tears of joy in contemplation of his many wonderous works and at the sound of his name.
Then Cambell kicks the door in, waking him from his reverie and informing him that us ungrateful sods have failed to realise his genius and he is back 15 points down in the polls. Again.
Hey, welcome back to reality Brown.
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what an absolute case of 'let's jump on the bandwagon before we know all the facts'. I' have seen comments on the Have your Say forum that are laughable at best and downright dangerous at worst. And it's quite interesting to see the same nom-de-plumes pop up again and again....
There have been some absolutely ridiculous comparisons with Stalin, Hitler and Mugabe.... please don't denigrate the memory or the sacrifice of all those who fought and are fighting against those despicable regimes by aligning these with the arrest and questioning of a single MP.....
The simple fact is that the civil servant in question has stated that he was leaking information to Mr Green over a period of 2 years. Therefore, calling him a 'whistleblower' is disingenuous. Whistleblowers act on conscience and normally leak on a one-off basis. The reasoning being that things have got to such a point, that they can no longer stand by the status quo. The fact that the relationship was ongoing over 2 years, seems to suggest that this person had an agenda that was incompatible with his service to his department. If he felt so strongly about the issues, the correct response would have been to raise those concerns to his management, if he then felt that his concerns were not being addressed, he should have resigned.
As for Damien Green, if he has in any way encouraged the civil servant to leak information, then he has a case to answer. If he has done nothing wrong, the facts will out and the police should make an apology( as they should in every case of wrongful arrest).
I agree with a lot of the comments that the 4 leaks that we know about don't have any National Security implications, however we don't know the content of the other 16 and should wait for the facts to come out before accepting the gospel according to Dominic Greave, Jaqui Smith, the Daily Mail or anyone else who is not party to the facts.
regards,
Nirmal Singh
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Just reinforces my view that 10 years of unchecked socialism under the leadership first of an unashamed thespian and then an unelected megalomaniac was always going to result in the degradation of our society and way of life. We've had a decade of untold administrative incompetence and this is just another notch on the ratchet.
This latest incident with Damien Green is merely a manifestation of the government's culture, ie its values and beliefs: Labour values state control over virtually every quarter of our lives and believes that individual freedoms are more dangerous than they are liberating.
However, for me, it's the Tories who have the most to answer for in all of this, for failing to oppose much of the economic and social decline we've experienced under Labour power.
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#65
Pammy, your talking about the right to express abuse of employment, it's not the case here, Mr Galley was an employee of the government, not an elected representative of conscience?
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56 MarkofSOSH
The dreamy promise of another election!!
How we would love to rid ourselves of this unelected Prime Minister.
On the subject you raise - one of the first priorities of the Conservatives - should be to reform Freedom of Information requests legislation and procedures.
if FOI was working well we wouldn't even be involved in this Damian Green "leak" debate.
Take a look in The Times today - FOI requests just ain't working. We will be reliant on a leak based system until we get FOI actually working.
Here is a flavour of the article:
"In the view of the mandarins there is a more systemic problem. The Freedom of Information Act, designed to open up the workings of the political elite to the masses, has, they believe, turned into a huge distraction.
Last week, the Cabinet Secretary made clear his irritation when he gave evidence to a tribunal considering whether the minutes of Cabinet meetings in the run-up to the war in Iraq should be released.
Other senior civil servants moan about the time they spend on freedom of information requests. "The whole thing has become a nightmare," says one permanent secretary.
"It is starting to hamper the way in which Government works."
Freedom of Information Requests not working
P.S. I believe the government were warned at the time that their proposals for FOI requests were fraught with operational difficulties. In true Labour fashion, however, they focused on the "6th form-esque" nicities of the policy and forgot to address the key issues of delivering the policy.
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Its so much fun now that Mandelson is back. Its looks to me like this is just one of a string of 'diversions' to take the heat off of Gordon. Maybe its his way of ousting the home secretary and making it look that he is not responsible.
I think its Gordons strategy to create as many problems as possible and be seen to be 'coming to the rescue' and get the credit as the man that can fix things.
This is a classic Mandleson trick.
Has anybody else noticed that the gloomier the country gets the happier that Gordon is?
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If police make an arrest it makes it easier to obtain a search warrant.
Such searches may just be fishing expeditions.
Is it becoming common practice for the police to abuse the arrest process in order to get search warrants that they would otherwise find hard to obtain?
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There is a very simple question for Jaqueboots Smith:
Did the mole have access to any information that would endager the state if known to the official opposition?
If not then there could be no reason for any action against Green.
I understand that in the lead up to a GE the opposition are actually given access to smooth any switch over.
What could Green have had that so urgently needed retrieving?
P.S. Nick, who will be reviewing your handling of news relating to Mandleson/Oleg and EU tariffs?
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Dear Nick
One thing is CERTAIN the POLICE are using Terrorism Laws as an excuse to carry out operations, even thought they are not Linked to terror. This is a Blatent miss use of the LAW and their POWERS, WHICH I MIGHT ADD the Government State Police are getting very good at.
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62 rrwhooloway
Our glorious leader is in his bunker, for there is bad news in the air and he only pops out to deal with good news or to re-write history so that good news can prevail again.
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Nice phrase Nick - "Headlong Retreat" is also a useful description of most situations where the Great Leader instigates a Review of the next policy failure, so we should hear it again a few more times as the Brown economy unravels, and the populace revolt.
Moving on and to save time and public money, I can write the Review conclusions now: The Met obviously messed this one up by a) making an unneccessary arrest b) over-manning the raids b) using Counter-Terrorist personnel (doh!) c) briefing everyone in advance, apart from Jacqui Smith, and d) overreacting to a call from the Perm Sec in the Home Office - who seems to have an arrest hot-line on his desk now. etc etc etc
Talking of Reviews, the Speaker clearly made a mess of it as well - but his position is safe as no-one will be surprised at all. His attention was probably on his/his wife's current expenses claim anyway so all very understandable in the circumstances.
On the Jacqui Smith advance knowledge bit, did anyone else laugh when they saw Jack Straw's clumsy cutting in to her interview to say it was all very clear to him? So perhaps we should ask him to explain it to us? All that was very clear to me that Jacqui Smith was simply (and I use the word carefully)avoiding saying that she new Damian Green was being investigated, by issuing a smoke screen of saying she was not told of "details" of the investigation. Just because she didn't know the inside leg measuremnents of the police on the raid doesn't mean she was out of the loop. Sorry to state the obvious, but our Home Secretary is out of her depth - let's get the guy off Spooks in.
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@68
You forgot to call us toffs
No payment for that blog entry.
Please try again
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Nick
Presumably you don't think the police investigation is required - at no point have you suggested that in your 'expert oppinion' anything is wrong have you?
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32 -- I think you need to do some research before you post. Read Mr Galley's statement via his lawyer which clearly confirms the type of information being passed to Damien Green.
"Embarrassing actions by the Labour Government" -- certainly not highly secure or sensitive information -- unless of course you are the head of the Home Office [Ms J Smith I believe].
More imprtantly now is the time for Queen Elizabeth ER to step in and dissolve parliament and call an election.
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Back when I suggested that big business and a failed society were sending Britain down the path to becoming a basket case economy, the usual suspects reacted with outrage because it touched on how the CBI, Tories, and themselves might be part of the problem.
Now Britain is in real difficulty but the government has presented and is executing a plan for recovery, suddenly, those self same people are crying "failed state". As with the Damien Green affair, they trivialise issues of real substance while tub thumping for mere political advantage.
Ah, well. That's ego for you...
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#32
Derek, the things you state as 'FACT' are anything but.
Firstly, we do know what type of documents were passed - those that embarassed the Home Office and exposed failings, but did not compromise any national or international security.
Secondly, breaching the terms of your employment (whether in public or private sector) may well be a case for dismissal, but it doesn't presume any illegality by Mr Galley. Please don't make the mistake of judging him by Jacqui Smith's standards.
Thirdly, since Mr Galley was not necessarily commiting an illegal act, he couldn't have 'known' that, could he?
Fourthly, something you conveniently forgot to mention was that absolutely no requests, inducements, or encouragement to pass information was offered by the Opposition to Mr Galley. Which means he knew that there were things being 'covered up', 'suppressed', or however you want to term it, and felt strongly enough about it to leak the information to the opposition so that it got into the public domain. No state secrets, no security breaches, simply a desire that failings within the Home office be exposed and dealt with.
And finally, if you want to quote precedents, please re-read post #7, and you'll have all the precedent you need......
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I am still unable to see why the Police even bothered to pick up on this case and take the action of the magnitude which they employed.
I think the Police have been duped into following the whim of some autocratic and ill-advised and ill=prepared Government Official.
There are grave doubts about whether there was any illegal activity in the first place.
For example, in the Smith interview with Marr, she evidently approved of embarrassing leaks and of MPs using such leaks; and she stated
'That is a completely legitimate activity it has gone on; it should go on; it will go on'
(see link below)
Thus if the leak and use of this leak is a 'completely legitimate activity' according to Smith, then there can be no crime.
If Smith with all her Home Office Legal Team backup can state that there is no illegality and therefore no crime, then the means of obtaining the results of a non-crime cannot be a crime.
Thus it appears that the Police have been railroaded into the serious business of arrest, use of anti-Terror Squad, invasion of the Commons and homes, and seizure of property - all for what the Home Secretary considers to be a 'completely legitimate activity' of using embarrassing leaks.
So the Review should be initially focused on who made judgement on this, who authorised this and on what legal basis.
Similarly, we need to know what is the illegal activity that Green could be charged with.
Does anyone , anywhere have a clue about what a final charge could be if the activity is 'completely legitimate'?
Thought not
I await the Report and the Smith and Martin statements with interest.
Smith's comments ref legality of leaking is at
http://www.publicservice.co.uk/news_story.asp?id=7869
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Re 44: In the "real world", Charles, gross inefficiency in the Home Office might have a bearing on national security too. Regardless of which party is in power.
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#70
from misleading the financial authorities
Oh no. Not Mandelson again.
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Come on Mr Robinson. Do your job.
Tell us the real story behind the Harman meeting at which they will decide the line of spin Mr Speaker will use to excuse his behaviour.
Any journalist worth his salt would have all the gory details fed to him within minutes of the meeting closing.
We await with eager anticipation!
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Nick,
Any chance your blog could address the central issue.
There was no crime until the police jackbooted their way in.
Even the daftest of civil servants, which Normington isn't, would not have accused a Tory front bencher of the crime the police purport to be investigating.
Normington claims he asked for the leaks in the Home Office to be investigated or at least stopped. The leak is not a crime that would support the investigation. The police fishing trip, for that it must be, is clearly outside this remit.
The crunch is that Normington didn't ask the police to investigate a case of conspiracy to illicit information. So why did the police imagine a crime that then justified them investigating.
The Answer is bleedin obvious Political pressure from Jacqui Smith "threat to National security" through Normington and on to the Police to ensure a witch hunt to nail not just the leak but anyone in the chain.
The point is that that the case could only have been started by political pressure on the police and their failure to reject that politicisation.
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Reading some of these blogs I think it highlights much of what is wrong with our society these days, conspiracy theorist abound, willing to believe one side of the story above the other just because it suits their political views, prepared to accept one persons comments as fact, while dismissing others as spin without ever having any real knowledge of what actually went on, I have no doubt we have not heard the full story, but that applies equally to both sides.
By the way is it right to describe someone who admits to making “regular leaks” as a whistle-blower?
Here is the definition from the English dictionary
somebody who exposes wrongdoing, especially within an organization.
And here is the definition from the same dictionary of a “mole”
“somebody employed by a group or organization such as a government ministry who discloses sensitive information while keeping his or her own identity secret”
Please make your own minds up as to which way the spin has been put on this particular aspect of the story..
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Ive just finished a conversation with a high
ranking Russian Government Official
regarding a transaction we are about to
undertake.
He commented in passing how "THINGS"
had changed in the UK.
As a joke he said maybe the Secret Police
there could learn a few new tricks from the
UK.
Obviously the IRONY was lost on me. HUH?
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32. At 10:49am on 02 Dec 2008, derekbarker wrote:
So the police are inverstigating an illegal act (fact)
All the tories have done, is set a dangerous
precedence
OK so your position is clear.
So when your party is in opposition for the next 8 - 12 years... which they almost certainly will.... Are they allowed to leak any information that they get hold of from moles working for government
YES or NO is all I need.
I say YES they should be allowed to.
You seem to be saying NO
Please clarify in one word.
Just one
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70 CEH
"Like the Damien Green leaks, there's nothing of substance just petty tittle tattle. Osborne and Cameron might stoop that low but that doesn't mean you have to ape it.
Want a better world? Be better people."
--
So you think people should be arrested for peddling "tittle tattle"
you seriously think your weak attempts at deflection and misdirection work on anybody?
...hang on - he's a conservative troll!
how did it take me so long to work this out?
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This investigation needs to follow the money.
Also the Home Secretary was apparantly in a meeting in Brussels at the time and uncontactable. Don't they have phones in the EU offices in Brussels? Wasn't her assistant contactable?
And what about Gordon? Why wasn't he telephoned? Was he busy recording a message for the X factor or something?
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Ref #62
Gordon is on his vocational mission - saving the World.
The potential end of democracy in the UK is a trifling matter best left to others.
Some of the entries on this Blog may give an inkling as to what is in store!
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Like the Damien Green leaks, there's nothing of substance just petty tittle tattle.
That was a pretty nifty hand-brake turn there old chap.
Why, only yesterday it was law-breaking, 'grooming', 'state secrets' and the rest. Yep. Throw the book at 'em. Who do they think they are. Nobody is above the law.
Today it's 'just petty tittle tattle'.
In one respect you're right. Compared to the concerted cover-up at the treasury to prevent the full scale of the economic catastrophe being made public then 5,000 illegal immigrants potentially looting government secrets is small chips.
Still, it is to be hoped that with some 'over-zealous' low-ranking plod tossed out as a scapegoat we can keep Speaker Martin, Browns placeman, in situ to ensure he (Brown) can continue to bat away embarrassing questions from Cameron with a tirade of 20-year old figures to deflect from the utter horlicks Brown has made and continues to make of the UK economy.
Now. Back to your happy place..
'Bullingdon Club', 'Tory Toff', 'Do nothing Party', 'Started in America', 'Uniquely placed'. Blah blah.
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Re 70:
"Want a better world? Be better people."
No wonder you didn't like my comment about self-righteousness.
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Can the techs at the BBC please save my fraying sanity and create an option to allow the page to automatically scroll past any of Charles´s ramblings?
I like this blog and have being reading it for ages now, and I even like to hear all the opposing views, as I like to opens my mind, but even I have my limits.
PS. I signed-up just to say all that :-) I´ll try to make my next comment more of a political insight than a personal gripe, even though I feel I probably share it with a large chunk of the bloggers here.
Be lucky folks! With this government, we need all the luck we can get.
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As I've commented on the Daily Politics blog, reviewing the arrest now seems to be caving in to political pressure.
Having got themselves into this position, the Met Police should have allowed the due process of law to continue, until either they decided not to bring charges, the CPS threw it out or the court reached a verdict.
To have a review at this early stage following the arrest, before the enquiries are completed (in February) seems to be undermining the due process of law.
The review should have waited until thye due process of law had finished...
What a cock-up...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I note, that the stronger my argument the more the substance of alternative views drops off and the more personal attacks rise. Oddly, the most wild conspiracy theories and smears are let through on the nod by the same people when it suits their agenda.
If some of you folks posted under your real names instead of hiding behind the wall of internet anonymity, I suspect, you'd be a bit calmer and more polite. Judgementalism and attitude is easy when there's no kickback but another thing if your real hide is riding on the outcome.
Perhaps, if more politicans, journalists, and public weighed these things more carefully we'd all be less hasty and get along better. Certainly, politics could do with expanding the sweetspot, and this Damien Green affair is part of developing some enlightenment in this area. One hopes "lessons are learned" by all stakeholders.
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"Just reinforces my view that 10 years of unchecked socialism under the leadership first of an unashamed thespian and then an unelected megalomaniac was always going to result in the degradation of our society and way of life." (#81)
Well, that's interesting, but which country had you in mind? The UK has been run by Thatcherite politicians with no care or concern for society as a whole for pretty well as long as I can remember now. And I have to say that the arrest of political opponents is exactly what I would expect to happen under such right-wing politics.
"Unchecked socialism" indeed! I don't know whether to laugh or cry at how easily some people swallow the shallowest of pretences put out by those in power. If Gordon Brown's press office said that he was Superman would you believe that as quickly as you believe his equally ludicrous claim to be a socialist?
But people never change: Hitler called himself socialist too, just as Stalin called himself a communist while enforcing a dictatorship. Look at actions, not labels - especially self-applied labels.
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Of course the inquiry could find no fault. Too many assumptions here, then again that sums up the entire coverage to date..
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Re: the police inquiry into the police iquiry into Damien Brown
I thought that Gordon Brown said that once the full facts are known there will be an inquiry.
So it looks as if we'll have an inquiry into the police inquiry into the police inquiry into Damien Brown.
I remember 'Yes Minister'
"The only reason why we set up a leak inquiry is to say that we have set up a leak inquiry"
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I just don't believe that Brown and Smith didn't approve this arrest in advance.
Brown stayed in his bunker and left Smith to repeat the 'nothing to do with me' mantra.
Now it will become a police problem which will be kicked into the long grass along with any number of other enquiries set up by Brown.
It's always the cover-ups that cause the damage, rarely the event itself.
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#93
Now Britain is in real difficulty but the government has presented and is executing a plan for recovery
I knew what the plan would be weeks before they unveiled it. In fact I could have written the Labour Plan.
The plan is: Keep on borrowing.
It is a Hyacinth Bucket plan. Just keeping up appearances for the neighbours.
Yeah, sure we can afford a new Porsche Cayenne (and a million extra Labour voters on the payroll). We'll just roll over all our little loans (ten billion here, thirty billion there) into one big trillion pound loan.
The Ocean Finance Prime Minister living beyond his (our) means to impress who exactly? Meanwhile the neighbours (that's the French and Germans) are all laughing behind their hand at this lunatic in his shabby suit kidding on that his limited income enables him to live the life of a millionaire.
Which would be just about acceptable if I didn't live here. Because I'll be the one paying the bills for this demented governments delusions.
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post 93 C E H.
UK PLC has been a basket case for 8/9
years.
A BANANA REPUBLIC since 2002
Only the even the BANANAS have BLIGHT.
WE HAVE NOTHING NOW.
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Ms Harman’s office insisted that the advanced meeting was only to discuss the logistics of Mr Martin's statement.
Yeah right, look at the list of names you couldnt get that lot to attend anything other than a key strategy meeting on how to retain power.
A logistics meeting my butt
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7 organum
Having just read the detailed leaks orchestrated by Gordon Brown when in Opposition, the hypocrisy of the Prime Minister and His Government becomes ever more astonishing. The Police may be in retreat but, according to Sky news Gordon Brown has repeated the mantra of Jacqui Smith, saying that no MP is above the law and the independence of the police should be respected.The Home Office have misjudged this whole episode. Jacqui Smith should have done as George Osborne suggests and 'fixed the roof whilst the sun was shining'.Now she can,t understand where all these leaks are coming from. A Government which is economical with the truth will always require the services of a plumber. This just goes to show that this Labour administration is well past it's sell-by date.
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84. toughtopperbrown
I feel I have to disagree - when it came to the economic recovery plan Brown had his main opponents stumped, people are unhappy about it, but don't trust the tories to do anything helpful, or the lib dems to win
This on the other hand, has provided the equivalent of a ballistic missile to the tories - rightly or wrongly this has set the public, and every sector of the media, against the government and is not some trivial matter that covers over the economy, it's another serious blow to Brown's government
I have sensed the hand of Mandy (and Campbell) when they started entering rows over strictly come dancing, rape law and made some comments on businesses - those are examples of dodging the real life threatening issues that we've become so used to
Gordon has no credibility outside of economic policy, so if this is Mandy's work it's either - 1) an uncharacteristic misjudgement or 2) a plot to get rid of the anti-Blair
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I am extremely concerned about the "secret" meeting called for this afternoon to nobble the Speaker:
"Those invited to the talks include Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary Gus O’Donnell, Cabinet Secretary and Jill Pay, who as Serjeant at Arms authorised the police seach of Commons property, and Mr Martin himself. No Conservatives or representatives of any other party were invited. "
This meeting must be gate crashed by members of the Opposition, including Liberal Democrats as well as Conservatives. It is an outrage that the Labour executive is trying to fix it for the Commons authorities who are supposed to be impartial!
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My understanding (and I'm not close, I just read it somewhere) is that the anti-terror police as re-constituted now incorporate the flying squad (as was). The explanation I was given therefore, was that the anti-terror police group were most likely to be involved because historically the flying squad would have deal with such matters.
I'm not an apologist for what has happened, either way, I dont think the police should have been involved, but with this latest announcement of the review into police actions, I have two thoughts.
1. Isn't it strange that the police review their own actions (even if it is done by someone from the Transport Police), and
2. Isn't it strange that this review activity seems to have come from a conversation between Jacqui Smith and the acting head of the Met yesterday.
It sounds like the government are desparate to extracate themselves from this mess asap.
Meanwhile, everyone's still waiting for Gordo. What a pathetice excuse for a leader this man is!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#102 - nice comment - Labour apologists like derekbarker are tying themselves in knots trying to justify the unjustifiable. Beats me why they even try.
Source for the goose is source for the gander as they say (and I mean "source" not "sauce").
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When the Conservatives were in Government, MPs such as Gordon Brown made regular use of information provided by Civil Servants. Now the boot is on the other foot they are complaining about it! I can't remember the police being called in before and certainly they are being heavy handed about it. Asking an MP about it is one thing, but raiding his home, constituency office and office in the House of Commons is totally over the top - and the latter akin to King Charles 1 going after MPs in the House of Commons Chamber.
I suggest that no one in government is giving a truthful answer and I suspect that we'll never get one. Why did Sir David Normington call in the police, and authorise the arrest of an MP without any apparent knowledge or approval of the Home Secretary? The approval of the searching of an MP's office within the House of Parliament by the Speaker or Sergeant at Arms is an affront to Parliament and the Speaker should resign forthwith. He has been seen to be partisan and that is why so many object to Speaker Martin. Speaker Thomas and Speaker Boothroyd, I'm sure would not have behaved as badly.
I have been interested in Parliament since the mid 1960's but this, in my view, is the worst government we have ever had and needs a strong opposition to bring out into the open what they are trying to hide.
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I wonder if any inquest will have the same result as the de Menezes inquest, where the "jury" are told they cannot arrive at a verdict of unlawful killing.
Sickening. We do live in a police state, because they are never wrong, and when there's an inquest into their behaviour, they investigate themselves.
It's like MP's deciding their own salary.
It's a joke people, the joke is on us. And it's time it stopped.
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I have been reading many comments on many different Media, and with very few exceptions, the posters/people are up in arms about this feckless rabble we have to call our Government. This quote has appeared in many many posts and I claim no originality.
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Martin Niem?ller
What I would like to know is how CAN we speak up, how can we mobilise this feeling of despair and dread before they come for me???
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I always thought that members of the Civil Service were supposed to be politically neutral? And yet here we have a Conservative activist deliberately passing on sensitive government documents. All activists of all political persuasions currently working in the Civil Service should be removed from their jobs forthwith. Civil Servants are there to serve the government of the day, not their own parties.
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82 derek
I'll try to make it simple. DG, as an employee who apparently didn't need to sign the Official Secrets Act, blew the whistle in accordance with the procedure on the directgov.uk website:
"The law that protects whistleblowers is for the public interest - so people are encouraged to speak out if they find malpractice in an organisation. They can do so knowing they're protected from losing their job and/or being victimised. Blowing the whistle is more formally known as 'making a disclosure in the public interest'.
"In order for a disclosure to a 'prescribed person' to be protected, you must fulfil the following requirements. You must:
* make the disclosure in good faith;
* reasonably believe that the information is substantially true
* reasonably believe you are making the disclosure to the right 'prescribed person'
You can also make disclosures to others, in certain circumstances, you can make your disclosure:
* to your legal adviser
* to a government minister, if you're a public sector employee
* more generally (eg to a professional standards body or, in extreme circumstances, the media)"
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#92.MGC-Northants:
More importantly now is the time for Queen Elizabeth ER to step in and dissolve parliament and call an election.
Oh yes please!!! Come on Your Maj, England expects... you've got the Iraq/Afghanistan battle-hardened Household Cavalry to protect you, the Government have only got the shooting unarmed innocent Brazilians Met.
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Michael Martin will say something inane, along the lines of 'lessons must be learned'. It's what politicians love saying these days. Well, fine, learn those 'lessons' but couldn't we have some sort of detention (42 days?) for the idiots who get their 'lessons' wrong in the first place!
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Nick,
Just a correction to your interview on Today this morning:
The Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police is NOT the 'most senior police officer in Britain'. He never has been, never will be. He has no seniority over any police officer who is not in the Metropolitan Police. He is on a par with every other Chief Constable in Britain. He is the head of the largest, most expensive, worst-managed and most politically tainted police force in the UK, however.
To suggest he is the most senior police officer, merely reinforces the view that the BBC is a metrocentric organisation that fails to check its' facts.
I've tried explaining this to editors of Today and BBC News, but never even had the courtesy of a reply. Perhaps you'll have better luck when you lead by example and avoid this factual mistake in future :)
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This whole affair has blown up in the faces of our lying government.
They got exactly what they deserved.
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to freecornwall:
The anti -terror laws were not used in this case. Please get your facts right before spouting nonsense........
Anti-terrorist officers were involved in the arrest as:-
The "anti-terror police" criticism is meaningless and misplaced. The Met has always passed inquiries dealing with leaks to the Special Branch. In October 2006, Special Branch (SO12) merged with the Anti-Terrorist Branch (SO13) into a single unit which is known as Counter Terrorism Command (SO15), so that's where the Special Branch leak team is now.
Therefore the officers were the ones from the team that is tasked with investigating leaks!!!!! Nothing sinister in that at all
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That's a good place to start. It's very Zen. I'm sure, our national rebirth under Dear Leader will be accordingly impressive.
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Derek Barker,
Sir, I don't post on here but do read the blog. Might I suggest to you that you review your continuing contributions.
You clearly have strong views and, of course, the right to express them. I fear however, your lack of ability to think through the logic is letting you down. I'm beginning to be embarrassed for you.
Just a thought..
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Carrots,
A special Happy Christmas from me and Gordon to you:
Happy Christmas
This Damian Green affair is just noise that gets in the way of real government business.........
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#117
Ha ha - only 8 years? Stop, my sides are splitting.
Remember the riots of 1981
15% inflation
15% interest rates
4 million unemployed
Ho ho
Bring back the tories
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So Mr.Plod is a bit short in the thinking department.
Quite a number of us out here already knew that
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After Clive Ponting, the rules clammed up pretty tightly, and the Section 5 of the 1989 Official Secrets Act no longer includes a clause for the 'common good'.
If I work in the Probation Service and email a list of known paedophiles in the area to a local newspaper, I can't fall back on the 'common good' cause; I have abused confidential information for personal beliefs outwith of the organisation. If it further turns out that I have - as is being implied - joined the Probation Service IN ORDER to obtain a list of known paedophiles and supply them on a regular basis, then that is deception at the least.
Again, If I'm a doctor and a prominent Catholic priest comes to me with a sexually transmitted disease, again, I cannot release that information outside of the health service without being prosecuted.
The other problem is that people tend to be saying "Look, these are the facts of the case; Green and Galley's defence lawyers say so," without a trace of irony. A defence lawyer's not going to provide a true picture of events any more than a lawyer for the prosecution will. We won't KNOW the relationship between the two men, or the exact content of information leaked until the trial starts, and that's when things will get interesting.
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32# Derek
So, you would be happy for the same jackbooted approach to be applied to the Prime Minister, retrospectively, when he was in opposition? After all, all things being equal... or do you seriously think it should only be used against Tory Bullingdon Toffs in the Do Nothing Party?
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Labour have nothing to say
But the same old lies every day,
They're tired and they're old,
They're stale and they're cold;
If only they'd just go away.
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#130
Pammy, Jeez, care to read what you've just wrote?
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when it came to the economic recovery plan Brown had his main opponents stumped, people are unhappy about it,
I wouldn't put me down as one of his main opponents. After all I've read Guido's blogs. There are some folk over there who really don't like Brown.
I too however must admit to being stumped by his economic plan.
So, to recap, Gordon Brown sits atop the largest squanderfest in British (and probably European history). He doubles national debt, he puts 300bn quid of borrowed money into the hands of a million people who should only be on supplementary benefit. Meanwhile he turns a blind eye to the largest housing bubble in UK history and the largest house-hold indebtedness on the planet.
And when the borrowing has to stop what is his response?
It's all the yanks fault for stopping the borrowing. Borrow more!
Call that a plan?
The only reason I'm stumped is because I can't believe he hasn't been given a chemical cosh and replaced. The man is a lunatic.
I'm stumped because the BBC instead of saying nothing (you know - like your mum taught you - if you can't say something nice, say nothing) they're there broadcasting 24/7 about how he is an economic saviour.
Huh?
What?
I must admit I wondered around for the last five years with incredulity wondering how people could be sleep-walking into such enormous debt. And wondering how house prices could have been allowed to get so out of control. And wondering why the government was pretending this was all quite normal.
But my astonishment this past five years is as nothing compared to my astonishment now to learn that Brown's plan, the 'cure', for this decade of irresponsible/irrational/insane borrowing is to be.
More borrowing!!
This is one of those 'madness of crowds' things isn't it?
This is 'group think' on a national (or at least Labour) scale.
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is it not heartening to know that no one is above the law and that even the legislators are subject to the law of the land, like everybody else. it is not the job of the police to decide on 'poblic interest issues' it is their job to put the matter infront of the courts. It is disturbing to hear MPs complaining at being questions and investigated when a potentail case is discovered.
I look forward to many more investigation and even proceedings to ensure MPs and ministers are whiter than white and subject to the same laws as the rest of us.
If police etc are heavy handed or political then it is for the courts to say so and if justified for the courts or their police authority the PCA to take action.
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Okay, this is really classic.
The Home Secretary has just admitted that this whole affair is grave and sensitive and has therefore intervened (see quotes below).
And yet, despite now confirming how grave and sensitive the whole enquiry is, she claims that she had no inkling of Green's original arrest. Although she was kept up to date with all the other details on the enquiry - she is on record on that.
It strikes me that either she should have been informed like Boris/Cameron given the 'gravity and sensitivity' or the police went totally AWOL and made such a grave and sensitive arrest without even informing her.
Either way, she should resign as either scenario is completely unacceptable and, as Home Secretary, the buck stops with her.
I also find it unbelievable that Boris was informed in his capacity as Head of the Met Police Authority, and yet the police didn't inform the Home Secretary, who is by definition head of the whole shooting match. The whole things stinks to high heaven. But 'plausible deniability' just doesn't cut it on this one.
Anyway, quotes below:
Miss Smith welcomed the inquiry today and revealed she had already sought assurances from Sir Paul that the investigation was 'proportionate'.
'In view of the gravity and sensitivity of this ongoing investigation, I spoke to Sir Paul yesterday to seek his assurance that the investigation was being pursued diligently, sensitively and in a proportionate manner,'
'Sir Paul informed me of his intention to conduct a review of the handling of the case, which I welcomed.'
'No-one should seek to prejudice a police investigation in any way. These are very serious matters, and the police should be free to pursue their investigations without fear or favour.'
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Pfff. That old one. I've got nothing against people dragging up philosophy by people who knew how to apply it but borrowed wisdom on the internet is like handing a gun to a baby at times: it's the intellectual equivalent of sloganised emotionalism, not necessarily correct and quite irresponsible.
Zen Buddhism comments that people spend their time accumulating wisdom but when they've accumulated wisdom they spend their time throwing it away. Simply, people can become blinded by acumulated skills and attitudes. Hence, the phrase: "Zen mind, beginners mind."
"It's not not what you know", or "it's not not what you do" takes a while to get your head around but another Zen phrase provides a clue: "A person is defined not but what they do but what they throw away". Simply, we can spend soo much time balancing the bicycle that we fall off.
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#57 mypetdragon
Do you really think Nick has time to be briefed by Mandelson/Campbell before every blog as some claim.
...actually, yes I do.
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The right procedure should have been to ask a magistrate to sign a search warrant.That would have been interesting I doubt if many magistrates would have found compelling enough reasons to allow it without full disclosure and then that would have made iot even m,ore doubtful.
The right course shpuld have been to invire Green to a plice station to put the points to him and then if they were not satisfied then arrest him and get a search warrant if they still felt it justifiable.
This heavy handed approach does not leave the police in avery good light and makse the charge of a political move more plausible.
The truth will out in the end so Smith and Martin should get it out quickly before it does any more damage to the useless shower.
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TalleyHo
Even we are on the same side with this story. If the Queen did that the it would be the end of her and her monarachy. The person who needs to do that is Golden Brown, but he hasn't the guts.
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#130 Pammyanny
"The law that protects whistleblowers is for the public interest - so people are encouraged to speak out if they find malpractice in an organisation. They can do so knowing they're protected from losing their job and/or being victimised. Blowing the whistle is more formally known as 'making a disclosure in the public interest'.
Pammy, agree that the law is there to allow people to act on their conscience, but I would still make the point that if Mr Galley felt this way for 2 years, then that suggests that either he had a fundamental disagreement with his employers, in which case he should have resigned, OR he was working towards an agenda for party political reasons. The pertinent part of your post is;-
* make the disclosure in good faith;
the question is was Mr Galley acting in good faith or was he 'encouraged' by Mr Green to act on behalf of the tory party.
Nirmal Singh - (using my real name as opposed to hiding behind user names)
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Stepping back a bit, it shouldn't be necessary for an opposition cabinet member to have to rely on leaks to gain information. They should have access to all the information that a government minister has on how a department operates and the work it carries out. Clearly, opposition MPs should not reveal things which could be detrimentral to our security or allow others to circumvent or break our laws, but otherwise . .
This information is necessary both for opposition to hold government to account, and also to prepare them for taking office when their turn comes. Civil servants giving information to opposition cabinet members should be a duty, not a crime.
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#152 shellingout......
please provide any evidence you have for your assertion.
if you don't have any, then please don't make asinine comments......
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Re 70 - Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
'Want a better world? Be better people.'
Absolutely - No such thing as society and all that. Although looking at your posts I'm surprised to see you sympathetic with the teachings of Thatcher - good for you!
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81 - moraymint
"10 years of socialism" - you're kidding, right?
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#144
Look Fubar-Saunders, Mr Galley fed information to the opposition over a prelonged period of time! at no point did he try and fed any information or concerns to a select committee of the house of commons
Did he raise his concerns with his senior staff? did he go to a tabloid about his concerns, did he seek any other media interview?
Why did he persistently fed information to the tory camp? alone.
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A quote from Guido's site which is quite applicable both for this Damian Green affair and the ludicrous decision arrived at by the "independent judge" in the de Menezes inquest:
"There will be no white wash in the sh*tehouse"
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"Zen Buddhism comments that people spend their time accumulating wisdom but when they've accumulated wisdom they spend their time throwing it away. Simply, people can become blinded by acumulated skills and attitudes. Hence, the phrase: "Zen mind, beginners mind."
There,Charles...a wonderful example of your ability drop yourself in the mire.
Now..answers please to the questions?
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139 jc
Are you trying to make Carrots jealous? Tut, tut.
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#32 derekbarker
As long as it makes you happy, you just keep on making up the facts that you personally choose to accept.
There was nothing illegal in what the whistle blower did. It was against his T+C's of employment, but not illegal.
You should be careful about the precidents "you're lot" try to set; given that your employ will clearly no longer be needed by the labour party after the next election they might just come for you....
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You say "the police made the first move".
To be pedantic, the police have made the first PUBLIC move.
Whether they close to move, or were once again pushed by Stalin (whoever he or she may be) is another question - but given this government's track record of contempt for parliament, I doubt we will ever get an answer.
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#155
"Pammy, agree that the law is there to allow people to act on their conscience, but I would still make the point that if Mr Galley felt this way for 2 years, then that suggests that either he had a fundamental disagreement with his employers"
Perhaps, his employers are incompetents of the highest order? Why did you not consider this alternative?
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If it becomes apparent that Smith performed a "Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?" routine in front of the police prior to the arrests will that be sufficient cause for her to have to go?
I wouldn't be surprised if it had happened but would be surprised if she resigned.
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Another day another scandal,
Labour plummet in the polls...
Watch out fellow bloggers---!
Here come the Nu-Lab trolls.
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no. 140
There was never 15% inflation under the torys. This government has said it often enought that now its seems to be fact.
There was talk of it getting there but it was never 15% inflation. Fact.
More Labour lies.
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If politicians of all hues worked together for the good of the people, then Government 'leaks' would be of very little consequence.
It would seem that Hell (and England) will freeze over before that happens.
Or maybe a war is required, as they soon find the political will to pull together in those circumstances ... it is called a 'coalition'.
What these politicians mostly seem to utterly fail to grasp is that we are fully engaged in an economic war, which requires politicians from all parties in this country to work together.
The American Democrats and Republicans seem to have put aside their differences to some extend to tackle this economic crisis, so why are'nt our shower doing the same?
It is all desparately sad and completely fails the people whom these politicians allegedly serve.
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Quote: "I'm stumped because the BBC instead of saying nothing (you know - like your mum taught you - if you can't say something nice, say nothing) they're there broadcasting 24/7 about how he is an economic saviour.
Huh?
What?
I must admit I wondered around for the last five years with incredulity wondering how people could be sleep-walking into such enormous debt. And wondering how house prices could have been allowed to get so out of control. And wondering why the government was pretending this was all quite normal."
-----------------------------------------------
At least I am not the only one, I thought I was pretty much alone back in 2002 - 2007 stating that the current growth is NOT based on productivity, we are not selling anything of real value in the UK anymore and it is all built on a vast mountain of debt. Debt, by it's very nature that has to be repaid with interest. So, as the consecutive quarters of growth were piling up, fuelled entirely by foreign and domestic debt, it was in reality a huge crash waiting to happen and the longer it went on, the bigger the crash was going to be.
I am also in complete agreement in regards to the sanity of the Prime Minister. The man is a certifiable lunatic, devoid of rational thought, living in a delusional world of his own make believe. He is currently one of the single most dangerous people in the UK and he should be locked up for all of our safety.
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no. 140 refering to my post of no 169.
What i ment was that Intrest rates never hit 15%.
oppoligies.
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Am I the only one who finds something really sinister about all of this. That a government should actually consort with its civil servants and the speaker to come up with a story between them to lie to dig themselves out of a hole, where has our democracy gone.They are so inept that they could not keep that a secret either.
Brown himself was the master of leaks so how on earth he can say no one is above the law in regard to Damian Green is unbelievable.
Damian Green has been doing an excellent job at bringing this Government to account, embarrassing them on issues that should have been in the public domain anyway. This whole exercise has been a clumsy attempt to silence opposition and any right minded person can see that, excluding Charles E. Hardwidge of cause.
The police have also shown their lack of independence and the public will now be even more sceptical about them. They need to be dealing with real crime which is out of control instead of being puppets for the Government.
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Were the documents leaked protectively marked? Or was the information leaked from protectively marked documents?
If so the police were completly justified in doing what they did, if they weren't what law was being broken?
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Not entirely off-topic, it has just been announced by the Coroner at the de Menezes inquest that an unlawful killing verdict will not be allowed.
I'm really getting tired of this sort of thing.
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Firstly, apologies for going off-piste, but half the posts on here seem to have gone that way so I thought that I might as well join in.
#112, I find it difficult to reconcile that you simultaneously say that people should look at actions and not labels when you have previously labelled the current government as right-wing.
There's absolutely nothing right-wing about this government at all. Authoritarian yes, but that has nothing to do with being left or right wing.
Ronald Regan once half-jokingly put the left-wing economic philosophy as 'If it moves tax it. If it keeps moving regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidise it".
I'd say that this government has followed that philosophy pretty religiously, although subsidising banks is probably a new twist.
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155 purple
I don't know if DG "felt this way for 2 years". Has anyone in possession of the facts stated this?
"was Mr Galley acting in good faith" This is an important point and probably difficult to disprove unless it can be proved that he did it for gain.
If he didn't do it for gain, I would think that a jury would consider that he did it in good faith.
Scary that the govt is trying to stop juries.
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#151
Irony of ironies.
So if I get it right, Zen requires an acceptance that what you know is useless and that you have to have an empty mind?
Look's like you've cracked it then Charles.
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don'tneedthegrief: there you go again, just making stuff up and having a dig. Seriously, that gets annoying and boring - FAST. You're going to have to be more sober and polite if you want anything out of me, otherwise it looks like a bad deal.
Speaking of bad deals, I see the usual suspects hiding behind their wall of internet anonymity are just posting any old guff and slagging people off but posts, I reckon, have more fact in and are polite have been referred. I can swallow referral for sound reasons but that act is dubious.
The usual suspect complain about Gordon Brown receiving leaks of a serious nature but completely endorse the, possibly, partisan motivated tittle-tattle because it suits their purpose. That is inconsistent and a dead ringer for a flawed philosophy.
That Zen stuff that got referred? Read it properly next time. You might learn something, especially from the last post as it cut right to the heart of that. Insisting you're right and being desperate to win corrupt judgement. It's not great and makes "letting go" more compelling.
Calm down. Relax. Be happy.
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#74 derekbarker
Your claims are tenuous at best. If Green had paid for the information and effectively harried Galley into disclosures, then the police could investigate this. But Galley has refuted this yesterday where his lawyer said that Galley made all the "running".
As for Davis instigating an approach to get information out of government departments, this has been going on since time began. The FOI was meant to make the whole system more civilised and above board, but when it takes many months simply to get an acknowledgement never mind a reply to the original request, the whole system falls into disrepute.
I believe that in the US, the American FOI means that a lot of information is already on-line with general internet access. This would preclude the need to make a time consuming request to a particular government department. More importantly it allows civil servants to do their job! Whitehall clearly has a lot to learn.
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111- CEH
You were better when you were talking z.z.zen. You could stay calm while your ego go deflated.
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oh dear...it's all unravelling very fast for newlabour and its apologists...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5272415.ece
Perhaps we could have the expert views of balhamu., CEH, jimbrandt, derekb and other newlabor apologists who appear to think that criminal justice is a matter of opinion.
Call an election.
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I presume it's not only me who confuses David Brent with CEH?
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# 169 stoo82
.......no, but there was 26% inflation under Labour.
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Dear Nick
" Did the Home secretary know?"
Yes she did and all you have to do is put her in a court of Law and swear on oath that she did!! b
SHE DAMN WELL DID KNOW, ------
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Jacqboots says:-
'No-one should seek to prejudice a police investigation in any way. These are very serious matters, and the police should be free to pursue their investigations without fear or favour.'
'Fear or favour' is how the police are supposed to apply their powers - it is not how they should be treated!
Police should be in fear - in fear that if they do anything wrong they will be hung out to dry. The same applies to MPs and Ministers.
The public live in fear - fear that everything they do is monitored, and that their every day activities may lead to massive penalties. Cars crushed for parking violations, licences lost for insignificant speeding infractions, stopped and searched 'without reasonable cause', made homeless for missing community charge payments.
The public sector have it cushy - ministers especially, a bit of fear wouldn't do them any harm either.
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#166 DSD
That may be a plausible alternative, I didn't say that I was a supporter of this government did I?.
Therefore all the MORE reason for him to either have resigned his post, or if he felt so strongly, to report his concerns to one of the select committees in Parliament, not pass information over a SUSTAINED period to 'Her Majestys' "loyal" opposition'.
I do not know whether Mr Green has been guilty of any offence, but unlike a great many others on this forum, I am prepared to wait for all the facts before jumping to conclusions such as 'we are now living in a police state' or that ' Nick Robinson gets briefed by Mandy and Campbell on what he should put in his blog'
regards,
Nirmal
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#138
Care to elaborate your positon Stevesffox.
Has David Davis, sent a poacher.
So what your take, on someone who continuely fed DG information for 2 years?
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When the pension funds don't know where to put their money things are as bad as they can get.
Perhaps they should have a whopping big safe and store it until we have deflation.
It'll be worth much more then.
When hyper inflation begins they can then reinvest happily again
At least they won't lose it.
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168
Its interesting you mention opinion polls..
Yesterdays ComRes Poll - shows Labour 1% point the Tories 37% - 36% I believe.
ComRes have consistently shown a double digit Tory lead.
Now it could be a rogue poll - but since its the first substantive one SINCE THE DG affair - could it be a sign of what I indicated yesterday?
The public DONT understand the political aspect of this - like political bloggers do - they see an MP caught doing something wrong...
Mud as they used to say - STICKS!
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163. PammyAnny
Yeah thanks Pammy
Hes just rubbing it in. We dont have the funds here for a national carrot week and we cant even fund an army of carrot inspectors unlike the spud council. Its just me here.
All our funding has to go on my salary, my merc (just a little sports version you understand) and renting art for the office.
Times are tough indeed.
By the way everyone, as you all know National Chip week is coming (Feb 9th to 15th)
Please can everyone boycot it until carrots are given equal funding. Lets send the government a message.
Fight for equality for vegetables.
If only every vegetable could have a taxpayer funded organisation like this.... siggghhhhhh.
http://www.potato.org.uk/
http://www.lovechips.co.uk/
http://www.lovechips.co.uk/chip-inspector/
http://www.lovechips.co.uk/chip-facts/
http://www.lovechips.co.uk/chip-history/
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I've taken a similar position to Nirmal Singh, so why pick on me unless it's just to mock and win favour with your tribe?
As with the Damien Green leaks, I see nothing of substance, just an attempt to stick the knife in for partisan gain.
I note, you don't badmouth Nick so much cuz he could shut you down. But, you'll try to clumsily silence me cuz you can.
'Nuff said.
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Isn't it very noticeable that one person has once again disappeared off the radar over the last few days wrt Damian Green.
Gordon 'Teflon' Brown has hunkered down again, just as he used to as chancellor whenever Blair took a potentially difficult and unpopular decision. He is obviously distancing himself from any possible personal responsibility again. "It's that Smith woman's fault".
As long as an issue is of an economic he takes command but give him a difficult alternative situation and he's lost.
This country has two chancellors and no leader!
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179. Charles_E_Hardwidge
Im curious
Are you for leaks by both sides or not.
Simple as that. Yes or NO.
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PACE 1984 Code G
Elements of Arrest under section 24 PACE
2.1 A lawful arrest requires two elements:
A person?s involvement or suspected involvement or attempted involvement in the
commission of a criminal offence;
AND
Reasonable grounds for believing that the person?s arrest is necessary.
I find it difficult to imagine that Reasonable Grounds were ever present in the arrest of Mr Green and wonder if this was an attempt to embarrass or intimidate him. Maybe, perish the thought, it was an attempt to avoid applying for a search warrant!
This whole farrago is deeply worrying.
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# 171 PurpleDogzzz
I recall, before the 2005 election, stating my concern about the economy to the supervisor at the garage servicing my car. He looked at me askance. The company was bought out and the later company (national) has now vacated the premises.
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pammy, re 177
Agree that the news about the Menezes inquiry seems strange but I don't know enough about the law to know whether the decision stands up.
As for the 2 years, I believe that Mr Galley, (speaking through his lawyer) stated that he had been passing documents to Mr Green for 2 years.........
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#65 pammyammy
I have to be careful with what I say, as I've had posts removed several times for pointing this out.
The Government legislated to protect whistleblowers in the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998. They also legislated, incidently in the face of opposition from other political parties, to increase the scope of information that the Government were forced to release into the public domain, through the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
It is a good thing that whistleblowers release information into the public domain.
Could you please tell me how the following, entirely hypothetical remember, situation could be whistleblowing?
* An active member of an opposition political party, who stood for election for that party in the past, gets a job as a civil servant
* They land themselves a job in the private office as a minister, where they are able to access a range of sensitive information
* Everything that crosses their desk in a range of policy areas and about a number of subjects that they were not directly involved in (e.g. political communications within the Governing party) they forward to an opposition politician
* They then applied for a job in the office of said opposition politician having, in their view, proved their worth
That hypothetical situation would seem less whistleblowing, more flagrant breaching of their terms of employment, the law and their responsibilities as a servant of the Crown for political reasons and to further their own ambitions.
But it's hypothetical. Remember that. Hypothetical. A thought experiment.
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Perhaps they have been shown this and Bottled their resolve to "uphold the law" all of a sudden?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QIrweIqqsOc
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184. At 1:24pm on 02 Dec 2008, jonties wrote:
# 169 stoo82
#184
the key problem is that they've stitched up the statistics so often it's now impossible to tell. After all we all buy portable digital storage devices every week (I like mine with soy sauce)
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There is something funnier than Harman's leak, and that's watching the lot of you reckon the Transport Police are the UK's crack investigation team. Even woodentops call them woodentops - they're the ones no-one else wants.
So if you really think you're going to get a result from this, you're away with the Tories.
Smith just added a new escape clause to the Yes Minister list.
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The only action the Home Secretary has to take is to resign. In a government of intellectual pygmies Ms Smith has to be the worst example of crass stupidity.
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No 190, cripes, I knew things were bad for Labour, but an opinion poll rating of 1%?
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139. jonathan_cook
You jsut wait JC, my funding will come through and when it does Im going to buy one of THESE
Then youll be sorry.
Laughing at ya......
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I'm still wondering when all the leaks from the Treasury are going to be investigated by the Police ...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Christopher Galley is a Tory Activist (acknowledged fact)
He has applied for posts in Damien Green's Office (acknowledged fact)
He leaked to Damien Green alone as far as we are aware.
He now has a top draw lawyer paid for by who, a possible question?
Party interest is written all over this.
Everyone acknowledges that "leaks" are a matter of fact for all governments. If they were not "procured or induced" I have no problem, its a non-event.
If they were surely that makes a difference, does it not?
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How many people get wrongly arrested every year?
Nobody cares about them so why should we care about this Toff!
If he's been leaking information which is illegal he should be arrested. He'll cry about the public's interest to know, but he still broke the law so he's going down. Let the courts decide whether or not it was in the public's interest.
I hope they took a sample of his DNA and will keep it in their records forever.
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#195 Robbie
"I find it difficult to imagine that Reasonable Grounds were ever present in the arrest of Mr Green and wonder if this was an attempt to embarrass or intimidate him."
Can I ask why you find it difficult? is it because you have personal knowledge of Mr Green, or is it because he is an MP and as we all know, they wouldn't do anything underhand or (whisper it quietly) illegal.
After all, they can be trusted can't they?......
to quote an interview from Radio 5 live:-
Presenter: Mr Greave, how do you know that there are no security implications in the alleged leaks?
Mr Greave: Because Damien told me so
Let's wait for the facts please........
lol
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I hope, and feel fairly confident, that Opposition MPs of all parties will unite on Wednesday to express their outrage at police raids on the House of Commons. As Parliament is the highest Court of the Land are the police now free to raid any Court in order, for example, to seize defence documents that might hinder the prosecution case? (if you're not guilty you have nothing to hide, said the Dear Leader).
I hope that if there is a hung Parliament after the next General Election all opposition parties will unite, if only temporarily, for long enough to set up a series of Parliamentary commitees to investigate all abuses of executive power by Labour over the last 11 years (including Iraq). By the way, I expect there will be long queues at the shredding machines a few days before the next election.
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This was a NU labour inspired arrest 2 initimidate the opposition
Who else would care about the offence in question. It huniliated the Home secretary and she wanted revenge.
The police have never investigated anything like this before and if they had half of the cabinet including Brown would have been arrested.
and how funny the plod never investigate MPs for expense Fraud, perjury criminal negilgence and everything other criminal act that pervades our ruling elite
How else do u explain the 20 anti terror police (evidently our embyonic KGB) when a quiet word would have done
The Obscure offence (thye were looking for a reason to arrest him)
The cooperation of the speaker, like he wouldnt have mentioed it to the Home Sec.
The fact Boris Johnson knew about it in advance so they told the mayor but not the home sec, I dont think so.
The Idea the police would have gone in independently when there were massive consitutional implications, when no one has done this in 4 centuiries and there would be huge political waves I really cant see them not telling the Home Sec
No Jury in the land is going to convict either Green or the Mole so if they continue it can only be through spite
Hopefully some other Mole will leak some profo of what we all knpw to be true
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Of course the home secretary was aware of an eminent arrest .Apparently she was in Brussels and could not be contacted, ( no mobile phone or E-phone within her entourage??) The two Met officers dealing with the case are also bidding for the top job in the Met. I cannot imagine for one second they did not inform the person who is going to decide who gets the Job!!
Either the Home Secretary is embarrassed by the truth ( rightly so) and she is trying to wriggle out it or the two gentlemen from the Met are really stupid and should not be considered for the top job.
Some heads will have to roll ,too many damaged goods in the Home Office.
By the way where is Moses Brown, keeping very quiet, never to be seen when there is danger around .!!Probably still busy saving the world from the troubles that started in America bla bla bla bla................
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The Tories in here were calling other people stupid because they didn't parrot in line with Tory favourable polls. Will the Tories call those same people stupid now the polls are beginning to swing the other way? The public has a right to be told!
Anyway, my general view is that I tend to believe Labour is best placed to govern and the Tories remain unfit to govern. This is a fairly subtle and rounded position, so calling me a 'Labour apologist' isn't right. I don't write blank cheques for Labour and don't disregard that the Tories are people too.
I've also commented on the various party characters and campaigns, and it looks like the initial anger of Blair's Iraq War and success of the Tory ad man driven emotionalism is beginning to wane, and the more fundamental policy and trend issues are beginning to bite.
"The Tories are Machiavellian politicians in a Taoist world."
(That's a bit mean but don't feel bad, okay?)
Maybe. *giggle*
Skip-skip-skip.
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Just to let everyone know.
Gordon came out of the bunker this morning to tell us no MP should be above the law.
Haven't things moved on a bit from there?
Where's he been for the last couple of days.
Perhaps someone should tell him that the same goes for unelected PM's.
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#191 carrots
Off-topic.
Anyone reading carrots on the Potato Council should remember that it is not something you are funding through your taxes.
It is funded by levy on potato farmers. It's a competitive world, the potato industry, so most farmers are small-scale. They cannot afford to do much market-research (e.g. what potatos do people want), get technical expertise (e.g. how to fight the new strain of potato blight) or market their products (e.g. don't eat carrots, eat potatos instead).
There is no push from the potato-farming community to abolish this levy on them. They see that the Potato Council benefits them. If it was abolished, they are likely to see a decline in sales and their profits, as there is less advertising for potatos.
Maybe carrot-farmers, such as our friend carrotsneedaquango, would disagree. He wants to minimise marketing expenditure in the potato sector, as he thinks this will boost the worth of his carrot crop.
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When I was working on an element of policy, the department I was working for was holding onto an idea that I, and some of my colleagues thought unworkable and would not help the people affected by the change in policy. If the department wouldn't listen, through the proper channels, what is a Civil Servant supposed to do?
I would suggest that the only possible answer would be to contact an MP, and for them to be able to ask questions in the right place as only that way would the policy be reconsidered.
A lot of policy areas are very complex, and it is likely that only a few people would be able to put a contrary view and give alternative courses of action, before the final decisions are made. Unfortunately, policy is usually decided at a high level - whereas the day to day 'experts' are usually at a much lower level.
The particular case now in question of many leaks by one individual to a specific MP might be ethically questionable, but I think the country could well be grateful for others putting our MPs in the picture so that democracy can be served.
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Ref: # 179
Nah zen lad, chill out!
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#190
Very true.
Your average punter is not a political blogger.
Your average punter sees DG being arrested and says 'he's a toff politician so he probably deserves it'
Just like the PBR...destroyed on here but the 45% income tax bracket is actually v popular with general public, who dont know or care about national debt, GDP etc etc.
Having said that if this blog reflected the attitudes of the general public then it would be a Tory landslide!
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Ideally Whitehall would be watertight. However, reality is that can leak like a sieve and it is in the interest of politicians, both in and out of government, that it does so. Any civil servant or official who decides to leak information, no matter how noble or ignoble the justification, know the risks that they may face. To that end Mr Galley has leaked and got caught. What is different this time is that the recipient has also been targeted. The prospect of any Member of Parliament being prosecuted for receiving any “sensitive” material is disturbing.
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#190
Excellent. No doubt you will be pushing for an early election, then? Based on these numbers, Labour are only three short of an overall majority, and what with Gordon's mastery of the economic crisis, I'm sure he can get those three in the bag in the next few weeks.
Queen to make surprise announcement of the dissoultion of Parliament tomorrow, anyone?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The Conservatives want to tell you that this is Labour restricting the rights of whistleblowers.
However, they're a bit reluctant to explain how this situation is whistleblowing.
Unless Cameron comes out and says:
a. he is commiting the Conservatives to future legislation forcing it to publish every single document that the Government (and the Conservative party) produces for internal consumption (policy advice to ministers, option development, political advice)
b. he is commiting the Conservatives to removing the Civil Service Code and contractual requirement not to leak documents
c. he is abolishing the Official Secrets Act
d. he would have no problem with a senior Labour politician encouraging a Labour Party activist to get a job in his Private Office once he's PM, getting hold of as many sensitive documents as he can, and passing it all on to the Labour politican
It all just seems mock outrage to distract from being busted for engaging in behaviour that the Met believes could be criminal and warrants police investigation.
If he answers yes to these questions, I would happily say that Cameron is taking a principled stand (though he may do better respecting the rule of law and pushing for change in the mean time). For example, lots of people disagree with the law against marijuana use and would say they are taking a principled stand against it, but Cameron supports using the full force of the law against these people
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#209
Ah yes, that'll be the interview by that well known bastion of impartiality Victoria Darbyshire, who fondly recalls that the offices of the BBC were littered with empty Champagne bottles following the 1997 election.
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And the 'Global solution for a global problem' dive bombs again...
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jU5VfPKfO4r7gLuVuKR8985k4yFQ
So it appears not everyone agrees with the Dear Leader's addiction to cash with everything.
How refreshing.
Call an election
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Theft is theft, whether of documents or anything else. If I stole company paperwork I'd expect to lose my job and a call from the Police would not be so very out of order.
Can't say as I understand what the problem is - unless, having been caught, the players in this hope to get away scot free by squealing very loudly about how "unfair" it all is.
We can't and should not have people who are above the law - that would be an open invitation to corruption on a far worse scale than the leaking of documents.
I hope the Police are never scared off from investigating wrong-doing no matter who is involved.
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207. At 1:51pm on 02 Dec 2008, Eatonrifle
Yes you are right, that is where the law stands, there has to be inducement and that has previosuly been interpreted to mean payment.
So ... As long as there is good reason to suspect that Green was paying for the information I would say that an arrest was justified. It would be wholey wrong for MPs to be able to bribe public officials.
Ill wager you that there will be no such grounds... same terms as last time?
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Brown, Darling Smith, Blears, Mandelson.
Now how bad can it get??????
Yes it is that bad, Green is not the first, just the first of the opposition to be intimidated in this manner.
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Here's an interesting little nugget.
Scotland Yard, on which the Met pays an annual rent of £4,714,500pa, was put on the market by its owner, Land Securities PLC at an asking price of offers over £100m.
They have now secured an offer of £120m. Guess who it's from, and guess who's going to be putting up the cash.
Follow that money, conspiracy theorists.
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i posted this earlier on another NR thread
? anyone know why the HYS on this subject is not posting, appears to be since yesterday, very few have appeared to get through, I'm wondering if it could be that BBC mods are trying
1. to sort out the pro gov posts to give a slightly more favourable impression, i say slightly because pro gov post's are out numbered by about 20 - 1,
2. or they are waiting to dump the post 's on in a block to make it difficult for other people to read as they come.
3. will they just close the blog with out posting the majority?
WHY? are the BBC so intent on promoting and protecting this government??
it appears to me the BBC mods are doing precisly 1 and 2, my HYS post of yesterday 1st dec 4pm ish was posted late this morning 2nd dec 14 pages in, and in most 'recent posts' many posts agree gov line ie not above law etc though there are still over 1000 odd posts still not posted, and the total posts have hardly increased, not hard to see is it..
has it really come to this that our 'public broadcaster' really isnt bothered whether we see their blatant manipulation now, are they so convinced that labour can be manipulated into keeping power?
we may have a recession but time competent government and hard work will get us through. but i think the attack on our democracy and freedoms is by far more serious to our way of life.
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That's true but you get that sort of frustration in any organisation. People may not have the complete picture at the top or bottom.
There's issues with FOI law in that some stuff that should be released probably isn't, and some stuff that should be kept quiet is probably blurted out. Also, organisations can generate and cling onto too much data, and demands to know may be unnecessarily burdensome.
I'm not proposing anything specific but, certainly, management can benefit from listening and explaining more to people below them, and both polices and implementation could be better crafted.
The Anglo-Saxon mentality tends towards boom and bust. People view the world in some sort of linear road to perfection with a trail of winners and loser lost in its wake. While that perspective has its place, a more qualitative, cyclic, and patient development model has benefits that people may be missing.
Is the problem policy and people, or is the problem our culture, how we reason, or how we think and feel? As the Anglo-Saxon model collapses and Asia rises in prominence, we're at a cross roads where this sort of thing becomes an issue. I think, weighing these things is important if we are to improve ourselves and understand people, especially in a globalised world.
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to those people who dont understand and think the quoting of Mugabe, Stalin, Hitler etc is way over the top. please take time to research and think about how these despots rise to power started. eg unquestioning loyal supporters, total reliance on the state for employment, homes, food in mouth, a massive increase and change of law fed by fear, mandate powers given to enforcers, eg bailiffs, car clampers, local authorities, cctv, politicise police, groom press, mislead & suppress the public, create apathy etc, now what?????
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Derek:
Theres no point coming over Gordon Brown on me mate and answering a question with a question. He can fool you with that blustering but not me. The stench of rank hypocrisy has been around for years, but even the public in their legions of public non jobs in the North might be starting to smell it.
As the question has been asked so many times, but you refuse to answer it, if you want to conduct this witch hunt against the opposition, then it is surely also in the public interest for the jackbooted ones to kick in the doors of 10 Downing St to do the same to the PM. As has been referred, look at post #7, the precedents are there and they are many.
And some of them, particularly in reference to the future of Rosyth, I would venture may well have been subject to the Official Secrets Act.
Unless we are about to - or have descended into a one party state - please absorb the following well known sayings:
"People in glass houses shouldnt throw stones"
and
"You cant have it both ways"
and, whilst we're at it, as another one of the legion of Bullingdon-Club-Tory-Toff-Do-Nothing-Party bloggers (ie everybody else on here who isnt blogging from the Politburo HQ) has put it:
"source for the goose is source for the gander".
Until you do so Delboy, I cant see any reason why I should possibly take you seriously. Your posts have frequently reminded me of what the Soviets used to call a Zampoliti...
Over to you. :-)
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#211 all-english:
"No Jury in the land is going to convict either Green or the Mole "
a couple of questions for to answer if you don't mind.....
1. On what basis are you making such a sweeping statement, after all juries are made up of people from all parts of the community and some of them may disagree with your viewpoint.
2. Do you have access to all of the evidence in this particular case? If so, who leaked it to you?????
Please don't respond with this is just a NU(sic) plot, answer my questions
cheers,
Nirmal
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power_2_the_ppl @183 wrote:
"I presume it's not only me who confuses David Brent with CEH?"
Now that you mention it.....
Nah! Brent couldn't be so pompous if he tried.
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Please stop trying to implicate Brown in this sad debacle. We should have all realised fully that upon his return Mandy would be running the shop. "Just Leave it all to me Prime Minister, you go upstairs and play with the kids, take these Gob Stoppers with you, Bye"
It's surely time for some serious whistle blowering, there must be at least a couple of good men in the labour party ?? In the immortal words of Delia "Come On, Lets Be Hearing From You"
As for the Met, Words Fail Me !
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CEH #221 - your 'response' sums up your attitude precisely:
"I shall be judge of all posts on this blog and will moderate/diss any that fail to fit my criteria views/agenda."
Your narcistic personality is truely getting the better of you - take a pill and chill.
BTW, I think most readers will view your response as being the one that is rude and inflamatory. Please leave it (and this post) here so all can judge accordingly.
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Please stop trying to implicate Brown in this sad debacle. We should have all realised fully, that upon his return Mandy would be running the shop. "Just Leave it all to me Prime Minister, you go upstairs and play with the kids, take these Gob Stoppers with you, Bye"
It's surely time for some serious whistle blowing, there must be at least a couple of good men in the labour party ?? In the immortal words of Delia "Come On, Lets Be Hearing From You"
As for the Met, Words Fail Me !
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#198 and #207
You are right to point out that Galley appears to have been biased and favoured the Tories.
Labour should have been able to make political capital out of that, and had the guy dismissed for breach of contract. However, they didn't.
Instead, they had a shadow cabinet minister arrested on trumped up conspiracy charges.
Why can I say 'trumped up'? Remember, the law used to arrest Green had NEVER EVER been used in this way before, nor was it legislation ever passed by Parliament. The police simply re-interpreted the wording of some common law to achieve an outcome/excuse they wanted. They would simply not have done this without intense political - Labour - pressure.
Initially to gain additional cover, the police tried to make the CPS complicit (it's wasn't us, honest) but the DPP quickly denied any involvement: i.e. even the CPS/DPP can see that there isn't any justifiable in court legal cover for the police's actions.
This is why people like me who once voted for New Labour are outraged: give me one example of any other shadow cabinet minister being arrested in this way over the past 100+ years?
If you guys can't see this - and I am no lover of the Tories - then you forfeit my previous trust in you/Labour to hold high office.
Also: you state several times that what Galley was doing was 'illegal.' This contradicts what others have said as he did not leak anything that was officially secret. Breach of contract and dismissal, yes; illegal, no. So, please, stop using bogus facts to support your case. This simply adds another reason not to vote Labour at the next election.
Labour could have made some political mileage out of this. Instead, by ignoring every rule in the book, the whole thing has exploded well and truly in their faces. I am beginning to think it couldn't happen to a more decent, honourable and trustworthy bunch of people.
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215. balhamu
All costs are eventually paid by the consumer.
If there is a compulsory levy on potato farmers, that cost is eventually recovered from us.
So it is an extra tax on potatoes that we pay.
Not only that, but as vast quantities of potaoes are consumed having been deep fried (as chips, crisps etc) -- we are also being taxed to pay for campaigns to reduce the consumption of fatty foods to counter obesity and all the consequences thereof.
Rather like bidding against yourself at an auction isnt it?
If (as you assert) potato farmers are happy to pay for these servcies at the current fee, then no compusion nor state involvment is requried is it? (A few less gold plated employment contracts for me, my kids etc to pay for in taxes).
It would be pretty cushty to make my customers pay for my services via a levy, instead of negotiating based on all the individual circumstances etc I'd get long holidays, top employment benefits, massive job security, gold plated pension etc -- but then there would be no reason to worry about efficiency, quality, delivery etc would there? And I'd have no self-respect, I'd just be another publc sector parsite.
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My pet dragon
People aren't stupid you know. Debt has to be paid back eventually and the average voter will know that his taxes will have to go up to paid the mountian of govenment debt we have.
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From what I can make out of this debacle is that the MP was more use to the police as a witness than as a possible defendant. To have used him as a witness would have strenghtened the case against the mole, without the many complications the police now face.
Someone in charge of this investigation must have had a mad moment. To have arrested a MP and searched his office in the House of Parliament was sheer lunancy.
There is no likelyhood whatsoever of either person getting a fair trial and I bet CPS will come to the conclusion next year, that, "it is not in the public interest to prosecute".
The Govt will want to bury this matter as soon as possible. It has become a complete and utter embarassment to them. Just think what coverage this story would have had, had it not been for the terrorist atack in India.
Had a sensible approach been made to the MP he would have been "advised" to cooperate. At the end of the day he has nothing to hide. Someone working for the Govt passed information to him which he thought the public should know about.
If this information had related to national security then that would have been quite a different matter. I don`t think for one moment Damien Green would have entertained accepting such information. He seems an honourable chap and I think he would have gone to the relevant authorities straightaway. As it was, the leaks concerned immigration which the Govt were trying to cover up. If the Govt had been more honest and open in the first place (something which Gordon Brown promised when he became PM) then none of this would have happened.
Damien Green is owed a very big apology from Gordon Brown down; but I don`t see him getting on. It is know good everyone hiding behind the party line that the police must be independent of the Govt and do what they need to do without party political interference. If you believe that then Father Christmas really does exist.
Gordon has done his usual disappearing trick and even Peter Mandleson is keeping a bit of a low profile.
I hope MPs do show their disgust tomorrow. The Govt has brought all this upon themselves and have got no one else to blame except themselves.
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#223 wrong
it was on drive in the afternoon but that is really irrelevant to the discussion. Point being:
Dominic Greave believes and quotes as FACT what he was told by 'the accused',
Labour supporters quote as FACT, Jaqui Smiths' response that she didn't know anything about it...
So the rest of us shouldn't take anything either side says as Gospel...........
let's wait to see if a court case ensues, then we can make a judgement.
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190 greatandydudley
that's interesting - sure the poll was taken that recently?
I just question it because the tabloid media are going in the direction of "police state" and "stalinist" and I haven't seen a lot of apologists in the media
likewise I saw Jeff Hoon cut a very lonely figure as he tried to defend the action on Radio 4 - an entire audience, as well as the panel, against him
just seems odd from all the evidence I can see
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191 Carrots
Good heavens, you really do need support don't you?
And how about the greens? Why doesn't the govt help them as well? And no mention of leeks, but probably not surprising.
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#220 obangobang
Queen to make surprise announcement of the dissoultion of Parliament tomorrow, anyone?
....oh, if only....
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#223 obangobang
Ah yes, that'll be the interview by that well known bastion of impartiality Victoria Darbyshire, who fondly recalls that the offices of the BBC were littered with empty Champagne bottles following the 1997 election.
...which, no doubt, the license payers paid for! Did TB promise to up the Beeb's funding in if Labour got elected?.....probably not a good idea to tell me, Nick, it's not good for my health.
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215. balhamu
NO NO I think every vegetable should have the same rights.
Im after the same taxation on all vegetables….. isnt everyone?
Just out on interest how is a compulsory levy not taxation. Vat is a compulsory levy isnt it?, its just for end users.
When you add a compulsory levy to a producer all he does is add it to the production price and it gets passed on to the end user in exactly the same way as VAT.
Not only that but when the collected funds get channelled through a Quango then its taxation plain and simple.
The only difference is that the spud levy is actually ring fenced and spent on chip inspectors.
No its tax payer funded, its just better hidden than most taxes.
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Jeez, the surreptitious actions of the tories,
rather than employ Mr Galley, the tories choose to take information from a government employee over 2 years.
How can giving information to one-side of the political spectrum be in the intrest of the whole public?
Jeez, the tories have a high opinion of them-selves.
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#238 bluntjeremy - that is a brilliant analysis of the issues at stake here - this Labour Government is so far up its own posterior, it could not see that what it was doing was not only incredibly wrong and sinister, but counter productive as well.
Speaker Martin and Home Secretary Smith must be forced out for gross dereliction of duty and partisan decision taking.
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Charles..
"don'tneedthegrief: there you go again, just making stuff up and having a dig. Seriously, that gets annoying and boring - FAST. You're going to have to be more sober and polite if you want anything out of me, otherwise it looks like a bad deal."
Hey,buddy..I was only quoting you.
You see,people find it annoying and boring when you lecture them, and then ignore their questions.
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'...looks like the initial anger of Blair's Iraq War... is beginning to wane...'
No it ain't.
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It should all be pretty clear now.
The person who leaked the information to Green was not paid, rewarded, or induced, or 'groomed' - by his own admission.
The information leaked did not threaten security in any way and did not fall into the category of breaking the Official Secrets Act - as generally reported in the media and agreed by politicians.
The disastrous exercise, now being looked into by the police, and probably later by MPs, was condemned by ministers and MPs of all parties - not just the Tories.
In other words, it was an 'ordinary' leak situation, like all the ones that have gone before, but someone, somewhere, slipped up badly in their judgement.
It's now time to pin down the truth of how it all came about, and for responsibilities to be allocated and acted on.
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The reason they use anti-terror provisions are that they don't need to worry about litttle technicalities such as warrants or probable cause or even an identified crime. Smith is being disingenuous again: she would not have needed to sign a warrant. It is important to note that on the basis of what we have seen so far no crime exists and there are no illegal acts (as opposed to a breach of an employment contract). That may change but if it does not the police should never have been involved in the first place.
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Charles @230...
"That's true but you get that sort of frustration in any organisation. People may not have the complete picture at the top or bottom.
There's issues with FOI law in that some stuff that should be released probably isn't, and some stuff that should be kept quiet is probably blurted out. Also, organisations can generate and cling onto too much data, and demands to know may be unnecessarily burdensome.
I'm not proposing anything specific but, certainly, management can benefit from listening and explaining more to people below them, and both polices and implementation could be better crafted."
This'll surprise you,Charlie...I agree with you for once.
Just shows..when reasonable comment is made,it deserves to be recognised as such.
;-)
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#226
Be carefull Carrots inducment/ covers an array
of bribes? however your probably smug in the knowledge that this investigation is unlikely to go to a court room, when you consider the implications (constitution of parliament and many other area's)
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222 balhamu
"The Conservatives want to tell you that this is Labour restricting the rights of whistleblowers."
I hope my link and extract didn't lead you to this conclusion. I haven't seen it anywhere as Conservative policy
Yes, I applied to join the Conservative party on Saturday, as I reported in previous posts. I have to wait for acceptance by the local branch. I have never previously joined a political party, and have voted for candidates of various political persuasions. I deliver the newsletter put out by my local Lib Dem council. I have joined a political party in the same spirit that I joined a union after 30 years of never feeling I needed one - when I joined an organisation that treated people badly. If the world around has bad vibes, there's some protection in numbers.
How will I vote at the next election? Any way that gets Labour out.
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Comres Poll done by the Independent wouldn't trust it.
If anyone whats to see what the former BBC Political Journalist Steve Richards thinks about this case have a look. He seems to be taking the same line as the present BBC Chief correspondent, Nick Robinson. Now there a surprise.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/steve-richards/steve-richards-who-is-accountable-for-the-police-1047108.html
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Reading these posts today is reassuring. purpleDogzzz you are right to point out some economic hometruths. May I go further and suggest that our trade figures should have excluded finaancial services in the calculations of our governments for a long time. What we produce for resale from raw materials is negligible and our world competitiveness is lousy. What's the point of initiating a spending boom when the items bought are imports like ipods?
Charles_E_Hardwidge calls us amob and now he's calling us proles.Look, mate, what you need to understand is that we don't expect the Tories to help us, we just know they will leave us alone whilst they go about their traditional business of making money and they also know that calling us proles demeans themselves more than us. New Labour, on the other hand,presumes to be our superiors, to intrude us, pry through our keyholes and usually end up like they are now.
They also reveal (invariably within 5 mins of taking office) that they haven't a clue which knife to use for the butter. So when we hear somebody like Campbell or Smith or Brown, we know that they're going to eventually put their foot in it-they'll get the script tangled up and that's what we're seeing them do now.
Many readers will not remember Harold Wilson's first government, but what was amazing was how they knew how to behave in away which didn't affront the ordinary person every single day.
Even when George Brown (foreign sec) was getting pissed at Embassies around the world, he was actually far less of an embarrassment than Tony Blair, Brown and their sycophants. After all, who would really try to gatecrash the Queen Mother's funeral to prove their importance? Common or what?
What distinguishes Mandelson from his present colleagues is that he's actually got some innate talent and a bit of class to go with it which at times like this can be quite welcome and useful, even when one might disagree with his policies.
U9461192 your comments are ones I agree with too.
To the present, the criticism being directed at you, Nick, might be better directed at your superiors who have an amazing track record for cowardice. All I ask of you is if you can honestly look in the mirror and say 'Bob Woodward would have said well done for that piece of journalism' IF you can't then get ferreting a bit deeper because this story is like an Afghan poppy harvest being organised by the clumsiest dealers in town. 'Cheech & Chong do leaks' is coming to a town near you.
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From what I can remember your colleague Robert Peston had a scoop/leak about the take over of HBOS which caused the near collapse of one of our biggest banks.
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#238 bluntjeremy
Not related to this specific case, but a general point.
If an opposition politician incentivises a civil servant through financial (or near-financial) rewards to break the law, is that a crime? Or is it acceptable?
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#232
fubar-Saunders, The point just happens to be that the tories, who, incidently have been caught with their nose in the trough, are trying their best too turn and spin this action against the government.
Jeez! they want to sack everyone from the speaker to the HS, over this issue, clearly the police have got involved and its a police matter now! (yes)
You do make some good points (agreed)
but Hey! we agree to disagree, thats opinions of this nature,Eh.
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In my opinion, a 'disconnect' is developing between the police and the general public.
I think that this happening because of a patent lack of true democratic accountability by the Police Service.
Essentially, I think that the Police should be officials elected by, and mostly funded by, local communities.
The role that the Police Service performs is probably the most crucial in a developed society - check out the Canadian Toronto Police Service strike to see the nightmare that occurs if their labour was withdrawn - but various Government measures, particularly the obsession with speed cameras - has caused public support to be ameliorated over the past couple of decades.
I am deeply suspicious of any vested interest public sector groups, be it police, politicians or judges - who have the power to rig the system to suit themselves.
There needs to be a total recasting, which brings proper democractic accountability to the above-mentioned.
More democracy, not less.
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This is a self-sustaining vortex of cynicism. That's why it's important to focus on developing better policy and consensus, instead of indulging grandstanding and partisan attitudes.
I'll claim that the Tories moaning over trivialities and "grooming" may get votes, cuz people are drawn to a fight, but is directly encouraging the failed state you're concerned about: the Anglo-Saxon model fights fire with fire, which only makes things worse.
I ask you, simply, where's the view on policy and who raced to make capital out of this? Some would say that's a bit unfair but, certainly, more policy and less sloganised emotionalism from the Tories would present a better face to the world.
If Cameron had learned from the Buddhist people he liked being photographed with to 'detoxify' the Tories, wouldn't he be a bit more stoical and flexible, and more inclined to develop policy and shared understanding?
Is Cameron the man he says he wants the world to be, or merely man caught up in delusions of his own self-importance? That's a tough but serious question. Like Labour, the Tories have their mistakes and difficulties but do they accept it?
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228 obangobang
Well, that's interesting.
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238:
At last a balanced view from a Socialist sympathiser. Shows you how serious this issue has become and that it is not just a storm in a teacup as Charles would have us all believe!
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233 purpleincredulous
There are some very familiar phrases and attitudes in your post, you know.
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Jaqui and Jill stitched up the Old Bill
and fetched a pail of whitewash.
Jaqui backed down,
But insulted the Crown
and the Govmint came tumbling after...
I wish.
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Nick, I've been reading your posts and found them to be lucid and informing - despite what others seem to feel. Great work! This is a tangled web indeed, but my instinctive response on hearing the news has yet to be repudiated - that there is something deeply disturbing about police action under these circumstances. However, I'm too young to remember first-hand similar arrests over the last 50 years, yet I understand there have been several. How do these compare?
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#233
after all juries are made up of people from all parts of the community and some of them may disagree with your viewpoint.
Quite so. And if the first jury get the 'wrong' verdict there's always the second jury.
Double jeopardy eh? What a silly out-dated idea.
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#239 real truth
But its a 'tax' that the potato farmers wish to pay.
It's a bit like defence spending. Everyone benefits from it, but if you made spending voluntary no-one would pay. What economists call a public good - you can't exclude a specific potato farmer from the benefits of marketing expenditure, so there's what economists call a 'free-rider' problem.
If this Council didn't exist (assuming its advertising is successful), less potatos would be sold, some potato farmers would go out of business and we may expect the potato price to rise.
Would you have a problem if potato farmers voluntarily paid the subscription?
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oi, what's happened the post from organum listing several examples of previous leaks. If it was becusse The Times was mentioned, someone should tell them they should be thankful for every plug they can get given the latest fall in their ad revenue and daily sales.
It was about as relevant as any post could get in these circumstances .Removing it looks as bad ads the issue we're discussing so please put it back up asap or explain why it has been removed.
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@209
"Ideally Whitehall would be watertight. However, reality is that can leak like a sieve and it is in the interest of politicians, both in and out of government, that it does so. Any civil servant or official who decides to leak information, no matter how noble or ignoble the justification, know the risks that they may face. To that end Mr Galley has leaked and got caught. What is different this time is that the recipient has also been targeted. The prospect of any Member of Parliament being prosecuted for receiving any ?sensitive? material is disturbing. "
I completely agree I think this is less about DG and Galley and more about trying to scare ALL other potential leakers to stop!
It is intimidation as it is now implied that whistleblowers no longer have protection under this government.
This is very dangerous ground to walk onto,
It is the SAME policy as 42 days, It is ANOTHER erosion of civil liberties. Its only one step from their to your kids dobbing you in for THOUGHTCRIME
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#169 and the rest
So interest rrates were never 15% under the Tories - more Labour lies - Ha ha
The Times online notes:
"The UK's prime minister and cabinet members tried all day to prop up a sinking pound and withdrawal from the monetary system the country had joined two years prior was the last resort. Prime Minister Major raised interest rates from 10 to 12 percent, then to 15, and he authorised the spending of billions of pounds to buy up the sterling being frantically sold on the currency markets.
But the measures failed to prevent the pound falling lower than its minimum level in the ERM.
Despite this and a promise later the same day to raise base rates again to 15 percent, dealers kept selling pounds, convinced that the government would not stick with its promise."
Any comments? You've been listening to Norman Lamont, haven't you? Never a good idea.
Bring back the Tories!
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239#
How apt.
Funded by a levy on the industry... compulsory levy eventually recouped from the consumers.... writing its own rule book but not necessarily enforcing it...
Starting to smell less like spuds and more like the Terms Of Reference for the FSA. How curious.
D'ya think they've done this before???
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More balanced reporting by the BBC today on this affair, asking how the police have become involved in what appears to be a case of leaking of information that is just embarassing to the government with no national security implications. Suffered the moderators' curse yesterday, hope for better today.
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249. derekbarker
Stop barking
YSE OR NO ????
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"In view of the gravity and sensitivity of this ongoing investigation, I spoke to Sir Paul yesterday to seek his assurance that the investigation was being pursued diligently, sensitively and in a proportionate manner. " - Jacqui Smith.
Presumably invading an MP's home and office with several policemen as if he were an armed and dangerous master criminal and dragging him off to the station for a 9h grilling also counts as sensitive and proportionate.
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The Speaker should do the right thing and stand down.
Parliament needs someone like Betty again.
She would never have stood for this nonsense.
Seems like some of our MP's need a lesson in parliamentary law so a debate tomorrow should clarify what this democracy stands for.
No whips please
If it is not sorted it could be Labour MP's next time.
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There has been some brilliant opposition politics here. An urgent enquiry into an investigation that has not properly reported yet is quite an achievement. Add to this that the present Speaker seems to look quite at home under a cloud and the Home Secretary is quite happy for him to be there, and you've got yourself a nice little embarrassment. In earlier posts I may have given the impression that I thought Mr Cameron was so complacent and opportunistic as to leave no discernible trace on events. I could be wrong.
But when this mother of all fusses blows over, and it will blow over, what was Mr Green really up to? Absolutely nothing? Just taking surgery?
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Silly me - I thought the Speaker was an independent voice.
Now I find he is "groomed" by Govt Ministers as to what he should say.
Democratic I suppose.
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And #239 real truth
Why don't we have voluntary subscription for defence expenditure?
After all, if people really benefit from it they would pay voluntarily.
Try reading economics of public goods/collective action. Or the 'Tragedy of the Commons'.
Everyone benefits from something, but people can't be excluded from the benefit to give them an incentive to voluntarily pay.
The Potato Council developed because of the inability to coordinate collective action and prevent free-loading potato farmers take the benefits of collective marketing action without paying their fair share,
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262#
Indeed Del, we must agree to disagree. Neither solution is perfect, but as someone once said
"democracy is the worst form of government... apart from all the others"
The only way any of us are going to fix it is to get out of the voter apathy that has plagued us since 1991, for us all to realise that politics IS important, it does involve ALL of us and that those who represent us ARE accountable to us.
Unravelling the effects of the "you get the politicians you deserve" era...
Is that going to mean Proportional Representation? Redrawing the boundaries again? Who knows?
My biggest fear, and Ive said it several times is the advance of the far right. Ms Blears has also recognised it - her comment went something along the lines of "so long as there appears to be a political vaccuum, they will attempt to fill it".
in other words, all the mainstream parties have to do, is keep on doing what they are doing, not appearing to represent their electorate, not appearing to listen to the electorate and the far right will quite happily offer "We know they dont listen... vote for us, we will listen, we will make a difference.."
Already one seat on the London assembly, several councillors in Stoke... expect their first MP at the next general election and for them to be in a similar position to the UUP/DUP within 2 parliaments, ie holding the balance of power.
The two main parties MUST pull their fingers out, find truly inspirational leadership (which Brown and Cameron most certainly are not) and start representing the people again, instead of serving their own interests.
What is happening now cannot continue.
Someone mentioned the possibility of an early day motion calling for a vote of no confidence in the Speaker.
I say now theres momentum, go the whole hog. No Confidence in the Government. Force an election. If Cameron pulls his punches again after having been given an open goal, then it will be plainly obvious that he does not have the capability to be PM. We'd just be back to 97 with an Eton educated (as against Fettes) version of Blair and a newly trashed economy.
Marvellous. Just what we need.
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Ref: #221 and CEH ad nauseum.
I have made a New Year's Resolution to not react adversely to anything Charles may blog.
Fortunately I have a month to go so I can still say that he portrays all the attributes of a pompous academic.
And what have vegetables to do with this Blog topic? Unless of course they are Greens and Leeks.
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Charles:
Cameron is no different to Brown.
He's a professional politician who has (probably) never done a real days work in his life.
Such is the generation of self-serving MP's that we the proles are electing.
See the "you get the politicians you deserve" comment.
They are all as bad as each other.
What needs to change is the attitude of the electorate, what they are prepared to tolerate before they say enough is enough.
Maybe we should be more like the French!
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Nick you are wrong about the motivation for a 'raid'.
A 'raid' is required, not when docuents may not be produced, but because their is beleived to be a risk that the evidence may be destroyed.
The police action indicates that they beleived (or wanted to give the impression that they beleived) that otherwise evidence would be destroyed rather than handed over.
What would be so sensitive that police might beleive that a shadow front bencher would destroy it rather that admit to posessing it?
So the next question for an inquiring journalist should be what could jaquboots have lost (and know to be missing) to cause such a reaction?
If you find an inquiring journalist anywhere at the BBC, may be you should suggest this line to them?
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(PammyAnny & obangobang)
I've just seen the report about the impending purchase of Scotland Yard by the good ol' taxpayer. First I've heard of it.
How can we afford this? Does anyone know where the money is coming from?
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204 Carrots,
With your paltry budget - you just don't have the momentum.
I don't see anybody coming out and talking about carrots with this level of commitment and passion:
"With potatoes on our doorstep, there is little doubt that more modern carbohydrate alternatives, such as rice and pasta, cannot compete with the clear conscience shopping of buying home grown potatoes"
You need more money sucka - you carrot boys are just so small time - how do you expect to influence the vegetable decision makers?!
Pervasive potato awareness
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@275
If you could read you would have noticed that post 169 stated that INFLATION never reached 15% not INTEREST RATES
Do try to keep up!
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"let's wait to see if a court case ensues, then we can make a judgement."
There will be no court case as there is no evidence whatsoever that a CRIME took place.
let's get some stupid misconceptions cleared up.
1. No criminal law was broken. Damian Green MP was arrested, (but but not charged), under an obscure civil law, NOT a criminal one, yet they still required up to 20 anti-terror officers to do this???
2. No official secrets have been leaked into the public domain. (If they had then charges would have RIGHTLY been brought forward against the leaker and Green, before now) The only information leaked into the public domain is information that clearly WAS and IS in the public interest and was only embarrassing to the Labour Government. NO OFFICIAL SECRETS WERE LEAKED. NOBODY HAS OR IS ACCUSED OF BREACHING THE OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT!!!
3. The charge that this is all OK because MP's should not be above the law.
Answer: they are NOT above the law, nobody is suggesting in any way shape or form that they are or should be above the law, that is an ignorant and grossly stupid labour smear.
MPs are NOT above the law, BUT the sanctity of the highest court of the land is, and necessarily so to defend the interest of all constituents. This is what our forefathers fought and died to protect from exactly the same sort of tyranny and despotism that Brown is trying to implement on these formerly free shores.
The police searching through Damian Greens office in Parliament is a clear case of contempt of Parliament, which IS a serious criminal offence. The labour government are certainly doing a very good impression of using the police as their own personal party political "heavies" despite what The Home Secretary states about the so-called independence of the police.
4. If leaking is so serious that 20 anti-terror officers are required, and the sanctity of the highest court in the land is usurped, creating the most serious constitutional crisis for over thirty years, then why should Gordon Brown NOT be arrested for this:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QIrweIqqsOc
Or is it only OK to arrest and put the frighteners on opposition MPs for lawfully carrying out their duties when they are Conservative???
5. That the home secretary claims she knew nothing of this is proof that she is either lying, or not in control of her department and therefore either way is NOT fit for high office.
What some nulabour apologists on here need to answer is:
Are these low-level, non security related, non official secret leaks (of the kind that Brown used a lot in opposition) OK or not?
If they are OK and Green did nothing criminal, then ALL the people involved in instigating this contempt of Parliament MUST be charged with that crime, up to and including the Prime Minister (IF he knew about it in advance)
If this kind of low-level, non security related, non official secret leak (of the kind that Brown used a lot in opposition) are NOT OK, and the arrest of Damian Green MP was right, necessary and proper, then when will Brown and many others in the labour party be charged with the same offence and will you labour apologists support that too?
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@277
He is bound to refer you for that
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275#
You've got a Selective memory, old chap.
Rates were at 15% for 24 hours, then reduced.
ALSO, before you get carried away with your sense of history, you might care to remember the position that Mr Brown adopted around the time of the Exchange Rate Mechanism and precisely which mast he nailed his colours to at the time.
Can you remember, or would you like me to remind you?
Just how much egg you would like on your face?
Well?
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Since when was it acceptable for the speaker to be a member of the party in government.
Dont answer the question was rhetorical..
we all know that it was the Labour party that changed the precedent so that Brown could get away with not answering questions at the despatch box
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There used to be much more of that around here until the mob of pitbulls arrived but they made it impossible and drove other folks away. Some folks think I'm niggled by they antics but I'm not. There's another issue - bad posting habits mess things up for everyone, attract trouble, and set a bad lead for folks new to the internet.
Actually, that's what irritates me about the British: just because someone likes proper form and has consideration for the broader community they scream "authoritarian" or think they're easy game when, really, they're just jumping to conclusions or strangled by their own lack of social skills.
It's a bit indirect but the Damien Green affair has the whiff of that about it. All this grandstanding and finger wagging demeans parliament, undermines the economy, and corrodes society. That's another reason why I bang on about calm. Like the economy, too much obsessing and yap can lead us to a place where we'd rather not be.
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Nick
Pleas elook here for the correct use of the word "Grooming"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/7760717.stm
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I'm just glad DG didnt try to leap over the barrier. Could be worse.
Who let the dogs out.
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#279
Carrots, Topsy-turvy, to turn it around!
This is not one leak, it's about one government employee, who over a long period of time! fed information to one party,
the party he just so happens to support, the tories, jeez, Carrots, this person was in all sense a full-time supplier of government information to the tory party.
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"Someone mentioned the possibility of an early day motion calling for a vote of no confidence in the Speaker.
I say now theres momentum, go the whole hog. No Confidence in the Government. Force an election."
Fubar, unfortunately going the whole hog wouldnt work.
While Labour MP's may join the rebellion to oust the speaker they certainly wouldnt join a rebellion that would remove them from power.
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I still think politicians are basically loving this and don't care a damn that it is our democracy not theirs.
I want police to be able to arrest and question any politician on the same basis as they do the rest of us.
I want politicians complaints about it to be as ineffectual as ours would be.
And if the police have made a mistake? Fine, rather that than have their hands tied.
The MP will get over it - about time the rest of you did too.
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#267 Pammy,
Sorry, I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I asked all-english to explain how he came to the conclusion that 'no jury in the land would ever convict Green or the Mole'.
So what part of that was a ' familiar attitude or phrase' please.....
I just wanted to know why all-english presumed to speak for every citizen that may be called upon to judge this case as a jury.
So please let me know where I have erred.
best regards,
Nirmal
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Speaker Martin has to stand down.
Hopeless performances at PMQs shpuld have been enough.
But then there were his embarrassing expenses.
And no he questions the sovereignty of parliament not questioned sonce Henry VIII
Get rid of him and
Call an election
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@142 : "After Clive Ponting, the rules clammed up pretty tightly, and the Section 5 of the 1989 Official Secrets Act no longer includes a clause for the 'common good'."
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Why are people still harping on about the Official Secrets Act as if that has ANY relevance to this case at all?
NONE of the information leaked into the public domain was an OFFICIAL SECRET, it was just embarrassing information relating to the failure of the government that should have been published, but because of the nature of it, the Government left it unpublished.
If any of the remaining "so-called secrets" that were passed on to Green, which as yet have NOT been leaked into the public domain, prove to be Official secrets, then the police and labour party hacks will have a worthy point and all involved in leaking them deserve prosecution to the full weight of the law. And the fact that NO charges have been forthcoming under the Official Secrets Act which if a breach of the Act had occurred then we would definitely have heard about it by now, then UNTIL such evidence emerges, and no-one outside of labour la-la land has even suggested that might even be the case, then labour apologists and the police have not got a leg to stand on.
All we know so-far is that there has been a serious breach in criminal law by the speaker, the police and others. When are they going to be charged and tried before Parliament for contempt????
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Nirmal
I agree with you.
I cannot be said that NO jury in the land would convict.
It is quite clear that a Jury that contained You, Jacky Smith, Gordon Brown, CEH, Derekbarker, Peter Mandelson, Harriet Harman, The Speaker, laughathetories, Nick and My-Pet-Dragon would definately convict regardless of any evidence.
So you are correct at least ONE jury would convict
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@304 in post 308 I named a jury that would convict.
I dont expect the post to get through though
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Manendo @277,
Very interesting.
According to the record the subject claims to share a 'personality type' with Gordon Brown.
Is nail-biting and bogey-eating an integral symptom of APA DSM 301.81 ?
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#297 PurpleDogzz
"NO OFFICIAL SECRETS WERE LEAKED. NOBODY HAS OR IS ACCUSED OF BREACHING THE OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT!!!"
The information that is currently in the public domain supports that view, but that only relates to the 4 leaks that have been mentioned concerning immigration policy. How can you or anyone else be sure of the above unless you have seen ALL of the evidence....... or perhaps you are one of the officers involved in the investigation?
The allegation against Mr Green as far as I understand it is that, there is a possibility that he encouraged or induced Mr Galley to provide information. I think that is something worth investigating.
I am not a Nu(sic) Labour apologist, but I'll try and answer your other question as well
If others have been engaged in the activity that Mr Green is alleged to have carried out, then YES, they should all be prosecuted as well, doesn't matter who they are.....
regards,
Nirmal
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302#
Yeah, I know, but you cant blame me for trying.... :-)
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#306
Likewise balhamu and NottingHillhammer would make great after dinner speakers..
'Unaccustomed as I am to doing anything other than bulling up a largely incompetent administration...'
LOL
Call an election
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#285
fubar-Saunders, Steady, I know your quite upset about the Calman report.
Hey! dont try and take me on, with the reverse speach method.
Dont you think when you size up the option
on how to deal with the current economic position, that Camera On Cameron is lost and offers nothing credible.
Deep clear oceans, "THATS THE PHRASE"
By the way, when did you change your user name!
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"The American Democrats and Republicans seem to have put aside their differences to some extend to tackle this economic crisis, so why are'nt our shower doing the same?"
-------------------------------------
Because as Barak Obama's administration is becoming full of the same insider neo-cons and neo-libs following the same agenda for 30 odd years or more shows; there are not any great differences between Democrats and Republicans to be put aside. America has a two party dictatorship where, in reality, they get to choose which CFR member leads them down the CFR agenda.
The destination is always the same and even the route to it for both parties is ALMOST identicle. The election is merely a pretence at giving the people a choice.
And as for them working together for the bail-out, well DUH!!!
They have voted for an enormous multi TRILLION dollar package of tax payer bailouts into their own stock portfolios. Main street be damned, we're OK Jack!
In this country, the same basically applies but only in a slightly less obvious way.
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Ref: Derekbarker,
Your argument would hold much more water if Brown and Cook had not made their huge reputations whilst in Opposition on the backs of regular and sustained leaks.
This has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions without success, not only by Bullingdon 'Toffs'.
Clearly a Lord Mandy/Draper LTT.
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balhamu
various posts about potatoes
Not sure if it is drifting off thread because I'm not sure what spuds have to do with it, but anyway.
You appear to accept or propose or even endorse that intervention in a market place is or can be good. Yet you have appear to have support for terminal Nu Lab who actively did not intervene in the domestic property market and can easily be claimed to have exacerbated the current economic problems which are affecting millions, to the short term benefit of same Nu Lab.
I dont want you thinking I'm riding your case because you post some interesting comments and there are other posts far more deserving of criticism but just how do you square your logic because I can't.
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306. Charles is disparaged by newcomers to this blog. It is open to any of us British Citizens - we pay our Licence fees to the BBC don't we?!!!!!!!
Nick, it is wonderful that you have invented this blog for us British to vent our spleens.
Mind you, the moderating is somewhat bizarre given what they allow Ross, Brand, Norton and now John Barrowman to do (seen the Daily Mail??). They are the ones in serious need of moderating!
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bluntjeremy's post citing Martin Bell's article is timely. Note that he too raies the natter of Elizabeth Filkin. She was vilified by New Labour
without ANY justification.
Speaker Martin saw a trough and he's supped from it amply. In Glasgow he'd be described a chancer and better suited to a stall at the Barras or Paddy's Market. He must go.
Richard Shepherd would indeed have made an excellent speaker and some of us will never forget the demeaning way younger Labour members reacted to his contributions during the Lisbon 'debate' though not many of them cared enough about our nation to even attend.
Has the Monarch ever said to Parliament that he/she is not happy with the conduct of government by ministers and therefore finds him/herself unable to proceed with the Speech? Does our constitution ahve any allowance for the Monarchy saying 'I cannot bear this to continue in my realm?
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There is a great deal of difference between the Ruth Turner and Damian Green arrests. Turner was arrested for her part in the alleged corruption by a political party on a massive and unprecedented scale! Damian Green, a Conservative politician beyond reproach just doing his job.
Another distinction is Conservatives are quintessentially law abiding!
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284. Balhamu
People on benefits don't contribute towards the armed forces.
What would you have done with them? National service?
Or doesn't your 'compulsion to prevent freeloading' extend to everyone?
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Critics of politicians like to quote George Carlin but they can (conveniently?) forget he did a great sketch that highlighted how these virtuous politicans we demand don't pop out of thing air but come from society. That society is composed of people you/me/us.
I've commented on a few issues and some folks have just rolled up to diss said 'by the book' material or rant about perceived judgementalism when, really, I've just discussed technique and highlighted that Zen is about self-enlightenment.
Steven Fry has commented that British actors lack the movie star skills of American's, and the reason for that may be that Americans are taught public speaking skills at a young age: they're not afraid to holdan opinion so don't react with so much fear and take the cheap way out by personalising things.
The Japanese tend to be less concerned with matters of fact and base their opinions on a collective understanding, and are equally more focused on achieving agreed goals and working to the benefit of the overall team. They also invest more in training and are more flexible in promoting, demoting, and shuffling people around.
I've found Britain has its wires a little crossed, and things like the Damien Green affair can kick this up. That's why after this storm in a teacup folks might benefit from some reflection, and looking at better ways that might help untangle the British psyche and put it on a smoother and more upward path to recovery and long term success.
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Iain Dale Blog
Sorry to divert from the assault on our civil liberties, back to the assault on our nations finances.
Iain Dale's blog has disturbing news:
Markets Deliver Damming Verdict on Government Borrowing
In the PBR the Chancellor, at a stroke, doubled government debt to more than 1 trillion. The Conservatives warned at the time that this sort of economic recklessness would weaken market confidence in the UK economy.
Figures released this afternoon appear to show this is already happening and as a consequence the market view of the risk of the UK Government defaulting on its debt has reached a record high. The Tories say...
"The markets now rate the default risk for UK Government debt higher than that of Portugal, Belgium, the Netherlands, France, Finland, Germany and Norway, a judgement largely based on the government's decision to take on unprecedented borrowing in last week's Pre-Budget Report. Over the last year, the perceived default risk for the UK has increased almost 15-fold.
"The cost of hedging against default on bonds is shown by the credit default swap spread (the CDS spread). On December 1st, the closing spread on UK 5 year government debt was 99.4 basis points. On December 2nd, Bloomberg reported that the intra-day credit default swap spread for 5 year UK government debt had reached a new record high of 106.5 basis points. On December 3rd 2007, the CDS spread was 7.2 basis points.
"German government credit default swap spreads on December 1st were 38.1 bp, Norway: 32.3 bp, Finland: 48.4 bp France: 54.4 bp, Netherlands: 66.1 bp. Belgium: 74.5 bp and Portugal: 99.2 bp."
No wonder Fox News had that ticker about Britain going bankrupt. Can Gordon Brown really keep a straight face next time he tells us that our economy is better placed than our main competitors? He must know what an outright lie he is telling, or is he doing the equivalent of a spolit child sticking its fingers in its ears and shouting "La la la, not listening!"?
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Nick
Not good enough from the police.
That they made the decision to arrest Damien Green is the problem.
How told them to do so?
What did they do to justify the request?
The whole thing stinks to high heaven.
You talk to these people. What is wrong with them.
As for Speaker Martin how on earth did this self serving idiot ever get to be the speaker in the commons.
Time for a general election and a new strong independent police chief.
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312 Purpleincerdulous
What you don't seem to understand yet, but you'll learn, is that the Right Wing element on here cant differentiate between a fact and their opinions. To them they are one and the same thing.
And they don't need "evidence" or "facts" to back up their sometimes ludicrous statements, they're simply right because they know they are, and lots on here agree with their statments so that proves it!
You'll learn.
PS Who is paying for Galley's legal representation? Anyone think a "third party"?
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Quote Purpleincredulous:
"The information that is currently in the public domain supports that view, but that only relates to the 4 leaks that have been mentioned concerning immigration policy. How can you or anyone else be sure of the above unless you have seen ALL of the evidence."
--------------------------------------
I have stated in other posts that IF some of these other 16 "secrets" that had been passed to Mr Green had been OFFICIAL SECRETS that both the leaker and Mr Green MP should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, without bias, influence or favour.
NOBODY in authority is even getting close to alleging that any of the information leaked to green is of the level of an official secret and IF that had been the case, we would have known about it by now, purely as a face saving measure for the Home Secretary. She would have expedited legal processes to see the charge applied by now.
My case stands.
In fact I am as confident that no criminal law was broken by Mr Green, as I was that the "invented" WMD case against Saddam was fatally flawed before the invasion started in early 2003. I was right then and I am sure that I am right now.
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BBC Have your say
The BBC Have Your Say team are asking if the Queens speech will deliver any surprises tomorrow.
I know one surprise I'd like her to deliver:
"I hearby dissolve parliament and require that there is a general election"
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319# No Flame, have not seen the Daily Mail today. Do you see it quite regularly by any chance? Helps to form your views no doubt unlike the nasty biassed beeb.
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329:
Surprised you don't refer to it as 'The Daily Moan'. That's the usual reference preferred by Brownites on here.
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Slightly off topic but just wanted to ask ...
Does anyone know where the Prime Minister is?
It seems any news that could throw him in a bad light and he heads for the No 10 Nuclear Bunker till the fallout is over...
Also has anyone else noticed that the default rating on UK gilts is now 15 times higher than it was last year? That effectively the market pricing in the fact that they dont think UK is as strong as GB would have us believe. You cant hide from this fact, cant explain it away with the usual 'fiscal stimulus', 'uniquely placed' guff... in the world today the United Kingdom is rapidly becoming a SUB PRIME BORROWER. Thanks a million GB... ( sorry make that billion ) ( on second thoughts make that a trillion )
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What do you expect from Plod? Leave him alone, the issue is why;
1. The Speaker allowed this gross intrusion into Parliament, and
2. Either;
* Why the Home Secretary allowed this to go ahead, or
* Why she wan't told.
It's the constitutional issues that matter. We know Plod is a simple creature who will always wave whatever power he has around. You just have to limit his authority and he'll behave as yhe should.
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#320 micromj
Perhaps that's where Crash is right now, cloistered with Her Maj clutching at her train, sobbing his poor little heart out.
"Please don't say that tomorrow M'am. I promise I'll be good... how about Duchy products winning the exclusive NHS franchise? How about repealing the Hunting with Dogs bill? I'll even let you off your tax..."
"I'm very sorry Prime Minister. One's mind is made up".
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#326
I hope it's the Tory party, as they owe him some support since he was only trying to hold the incompetent government to account.
It would be abandonment if they aren't.
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Zen Charles:
I''ve found Britain has its wires a little crossed, and things like the Damien Green affair can kick this up. That's why after this storm in a teacup folks might benefit from some reflection, and looking at better ways that might help untangle the British psyche and put it on a smoother and more upward path to recovery and long term success.
how imperfect we are, how unreconstructed we are, how unpolished and un besmirched by an alien language of spin, euphemism, and Eurobunkum we are.
Thank God.
Now can we get back to speaking as we find it and sticking two fingers up to the cameras?
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Yeah right. This is all a storm in a teacup (CEH's words not mine). The cavalry in the form of The Speaker, Jacqui Smith and The Met will ride in on Wednesday having together cooked up an explanation to save Gordon Brown's bacon, not!
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Nick, it seems that you are in retreat after such a first non-response
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207 Carrots
re your quoted interpretation of inducement, meaning payment.
From the Timesonline.
"Lawyers have told the Times that to meet its test, money would have had to have changed hands, or some other impropriety or inducement amounting to "misconduct" taken place. Senior civil servants have suggested that the hurdle is lower - that "encouraging" or actively soliciting leaks - even if there was no inducement - is enough for the recipient to have broken the law. "
As you see not quite that straight forward.
AS for the wager, like you I think no chance of a succesful prosecution, but there may be enough for a file to go to the CPS for a decision.
BTW already apologised to you once when I unfairly compared you to Robin (unforgivable)
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Yes Jonathan, I think Her Majesty would very much like to do that!
She would have been alarmed on Saturday as there was quite a skirmish outside Windsor Castle (I have it on good authority) with thugs and violence.
I am NOT amused. Fragmented society it certainly is.
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***Green arrest video released***
Its here http://www.conservatives.com/Video/Webcameron.aspx
This is a PR blunder by the Tories I reckon - its a pathetic video!! I can’t believe they have released this, what a joke!
I thought we’d have a juicy action-packed clip to get our teeth into but THIS! and a poorly delivered commentary from Dominic Grieve which was so boring I can remember nothing of it already!
It actually looks like hopeless party political opportunism, having a video camera hauled in.
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284. balhamu
SO what about carrots then... Eh... Eh...you think they can survive without a marketing board.
Come on then... why doesnt every vegetable get a Quango.
Bet you cant answer that one.... smarty pants.
ITS BLOODY OUTRAGEOUS
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Nick you say the situation went headlong from "everyday?" Whitehall drama to "major constitutional crisis"
To some of us (I am 68) it was something serious from the start and beyond our experience. The police raiding the Palace of Westminster and collecting material including MPs constituents confidential correspondence. Unheard of.
What would be the BBCs reaction if a Government Minister was arrested - everyday Whitehall drama presumably. Some of us wish.
The Met Police REVIEW in mid investigation has helped the Speaker who can say "lets wait until the findings are published.
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After the refusal of the Coroner to allow a verdict of 'Unlawful Killing ' in the Menzes case I look forward to the Judge at Damien Green's trial informing the Jury that they cannot allow a verdict of ' Innocent' .
#151 Chuck - A person is defined not but what they do but what they throw away".- Gordon has thrown away this country . He has literally 'Chucked' it away
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@42 Flamepatricia.
Are they? How many by percentage?
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#323 CEH
Another lame - and time-wasting - attempt to distract from the brutal facts around us;
* the government hasn't got a clue what to do about paying back the monstrous deb the nation has now been saddled with.
* they will ride roughshod over every convention to protect our tradition of liberty under common law.
Why write such cod psychobabble Charles, when you know nobody buys it?
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#293 purpledogzz
And your proof of that is that this is what the lawyer for the alleged mole says, and what the MP alleged to have encouraged the mole to leak says.
Follow the logic:
* Most people who go to court claim they are 'not guilty' and have lawyers who swear that their client did not commit the crime
* If someone or their lawyer claims they have done nothing wrong, should the police abandon the investigation as they obviously got it wrong?
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#298 pot_kettle
You might be interested in these disgraceful allegations about Cameron, including the Mail on Sunday alleging that Michael Howard was grooming Cameron as long ago as 2004
You might want to write in to them and complain?
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334# I'm sure you're right and it nicely ensures the stories tally.
Glad you recognise the Tory party responsibility in all this, implicated all the way through.
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#317
euforever.
Tut, tut. Another tory rant.
Robin Cook was given the Scott report about the tories arms to Iraq scandal, 2 hours before the debate, "YES" kid, 2 hours before the debate, no leak to rely on there,
eh, the report consisted of over two thousand words, which Robin duly digested and rip apart the tories for their worth.
Jeez, lad! no need for labour to rely on the feeding of a mole for two years.
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319 flamepatricia wrote:
306. Charles is disparaged by newcomers to this blog. It is open to any of us British Citizens - we pay our Licence fees to the BBC don't we?!!!!!!!
I beleive Charles is only disparaged by newcomers because they are the only ones who bother to read him.
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This is interesting - I wonder if it's true!!?
http://www.order-order.com/2008/11/camerons-press-conference-live.html
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To correct matters
Inflation in 1980 reached 20%- that was under the Conservative Government.
Exceptional circumstances.
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#314
I doubt I could be an after-dinner speaker - some goblin would probably want to silence my view if it was not the same as theirs
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#318 glen
I have not said that Labour shouldn't have more actively intervened in the housing market. I think they should have done, and share some of the blame in the bubble for this reason.
Whether it was politically feasible to intervene, given the media pressure to do something and criticism from Conservatives to do more for first-time buyers is a different story.
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291. jonathan_cook wrote
You need more money sucker - you carrot boys are just so small time - how do you expect to influence the vegetable decision makers
Yeah thats right you nasty Tory, pick on the little guy. We work very hard here thanks.
Dont you read the papers... A Norfolk carrot grower has been awarded the title of Vegetable Grower of the Year 2008 thank you very much.
And whats more sucker Ive just been given a grant to employ a consultant lobbyist to persuade the government to give us more funding. Ha.
I see a yacht with a carrot shaped sale on the horizon..
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#322 real truth
So, should there be voluntary subscription for defence spending, yes or no?
If you choose not to pay, you can just choose not to be protected by the British army right?
Why have government at all if collective action can always be done on a voluntary basis?
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Charles@323...
This is getting tedious..I'm almost agreeing with you again!
"The Japanese tend to be less concerned with matters of fact and base their opinions on a collective understanding, and are equally more focused on achieving agreed goals and working to the benefit of the overall team. They also invest more in training and are more flexible in promoting, demoting, and shuffling people around."
Close..but not quite a cigar.
Certainly the Japanese have a doctrine of collective understanding,however it's not true to say that they are less concerned with matters of fact. It's all to do with 'loss of face'..something they cannot abide,and even do their utmost to avoid for an adversory of theirs. If something is proven to be a matter of fact, that they have turned a blind eye to,they will acknowledge in very oblique terms their 'error'..normally as a 'misunderstanding'.This is done to avoid loss of face for all the parties involved.
As to 'demotion',this very rarely happens in Japanese culture..normally,again,it results in maintenance of the individuals' status,but in another position...euphemistically known as 'the window seat'
OK?
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Ssssh, it's all so quiet, then a tory councillor
resigns over an Irish issue and starts another big riot.
Wow! is there anything the tories are not invovled in.
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343. jobby-jabber
Ka...eh.....ka....what?
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People have said that I said that but I actually said "software developer". Plus, I use the term loosely: it gives people a label they can understand while fending off awkward questions. I could give you some more if you like but we're heading into deep Zen territory and that might blow a couple of fuses around here.
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I am still listening and tell you, Nicholas - none of it makes sense.
There is a huge piece missing. And everyone is talking around it. I chuckled at a police inquiry into a police inquiry though.
A week to initial findings? Wow! There's confident, look you!
This may not be a retreat. But we may see.
And if I see another MP whinnying on about "their Parliamentary rights" I will not be responsible for my verbal reaction.
Has anyone seen any of the usual suspects so worked up on behalf of one of their constituents? Genuinely worked up I mean?
I look forward to seeing David Davis's pursing his lips in disapproval before a word has been uttered tomorrow.
Maybe the Queen should call in with her apologies and find another appointment with more urgent need of her attention the Parliament.
The MPs - allegedly - obviously intend to slight her if they do not get their way. By discussing another topic other than her hard worked on Speech.
Ungallant or what?
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211 all-english:
"No Jury in the land is going to convict either Green or the Mole "
a couple of questions for to answer if you don't mind.....
1. On what basis are you making such a sweeping statement, after all juries are made up of people from all parts of the community and some of them may disagree with your viewpoint.
2. Do you have access to all of the evidence in this particular case? If so, who leaked it to you?????
Please don't respond with this is just a NU(sic) plot, answer my questions
cheers,
Nirmal
2 reasons Really Nirmal
1. I dont think any real criminal offence has been commited on the part of the Mole. Nothing was under the official secrets act and what he did is an internal disciplinary matter nothing more.
2. As for Mr Green a/ he was only doing his job and seeking out confidential information 2 embarass the government is common practice with the opposistion the disclosures showed up the home secretary as being dishonest and incompetent
b/ there are scores of examples of Mandleson, Brown Campbell doing precisely the same thing when they were in oppostiion and they have no scruples whatsoever about leaking confidential tit bits when it suits them, such as when they want to scare us over terrorism.
Do you really think a Jury is going to convict Mr Green of something that half the cabinet commit routinely when what he disclosed was something that we have a right to know and when a guilty vedict would deter future whistle blowers and be in the interests of no one but Nu Labour
I dont think so
what are your counter arguments exactly?
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Nick
CUT THE CRAP
Forget all the Cameron crap about "stitch-up".
The Tories are going to use this episode as an opportunity to table a vote of no confidence in the Speaker.
Susie
Carryduff
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Oooops! @ 354 I shot my bolt too early.
Chuck is just an acolyte, not a doer.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I'm finding this quite a boring story - I'm not remotely worried about the surveillence society, or about us becoming something akin to the nightmare vision laid out for us by George Orwell in his famous 1984 tome - I don't know why I'm not worried, I'm just not - I'm actually more concerned about how J Ross is going to handle his comeback, to be honest with you, than I am about our politicians getting all sinnister about personal information - they haven't got it in them to be dangerous in that way - dangerous in other ways, that's for sure, but not like that
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Cuz it makes me feel warm an' fluffy?
Never said I was selling it.
Make your own stuff up.
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#348
The Tories are knee-deep inplicated in the crime of holding this bunch of idiots to account. They will plead guilty as charged.
I guess you're all in favour of continuing to cover up such minor irregularities as employing thousands of people illegally in the country in security capacities. I mean, what nick-pickers!!
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Olympics good for having a party but not much else, secret report warned ministers
Did they listen? Of course not.
Scorched earth.
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"In retreat"? Indeed you are Mr Robinson.
What I'd like to know is why you got this story so completely wrong originally. Your underestimation of its constitutional and political significance was completely at odds with the reactions of EVERYONE I've spoken to - from all political backgrounds.
And it isn't just you. Newsnight, Today and the BBC Website seemed for days to have chosen to play it either as a non-story or as a "Tory anger" story.
The response, both in numbers and in views, in the comments on your blog and in the - incredibly delayed - HYS thread clearly show that people care, find what has happened unacceptable - and deeply disbelieve the Home Secretary's claims.
It reminds me a bit of your bizarre defence of what Gordon Brown did to our pensions!
Given the BBC's recent performance I'd have thought you would be trying a little harder.
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348. Eatonrifle
What exactly do you think the Tories have done wrong.
How does it differ from what Brown did to Majors government.
They both will have encouraged the moles to provide further information.
Your either for the leaks in which case there is no responsibilityeither side.
Or you are against them, in which case both parties are as guilty as each other.
Which is it?
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Brown's limp excuse "MP's are not above the Law" says it all.
Ah....but is he saying that Conservative MP's are not above the law, but Labour MP's are? I seem to remember not so long ago when Labour MP's were being quesioned by the police and among them, was none other than our own Prime Minister, Tony Blair. No charges were brought then.
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357. balhamu
SO you are comparing defence of the realm with vegetable marketing to prove point.
Do you think that actually works?
I think you might be over thinking the issue, have a lie down.
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228 obangobang
LS looks to have a well rounded board, although the chair's biography could benefit from updating
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re 319
Not disparagement, madam!* Admiration, pure
admiration.
* or alternatively !!!!!!??!
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Ref: #349
Ah Derek, poor misguided fool. You forgot about Brown, and Cook was an exponent of speed reading, hence his, and his team's brilliance with the Scott Report. His reputation at holding the government to account was enhanced however, like Brown, by a steady source of leaks. Nothing wrong there - it has been going on for decades regardless of who is in Government, which is why this time it stinks!
So tut tut to you.
Oh - and I object to being called a Tory, Such personal abuse should have been blocked by the moderator.
Apologies please!
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#355
"Whether it was politically feasible to intervene, given the media pressure to do something and criticism from Conservatives to do more for first-time buyers is a different story."
Ah! I knew it was all the fault of the Tories!
Still, makes a change from blaming the Americans I suppose.
Where's the "doh" button when you need it?
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With the Police investigating the arrest, we should organise a competition for the first sighting of the standard "With the Police investigation in progress it would be improper of me to comment on the matter until that has been concluded" copout.
Come on everyone, let's lay bets on how soon we hear it from a government Minister.
I predict sometime late this evening.
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360 derek
Your command of language is extraordinary. Er, which one is it?
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This is just another case of a law which was meant for one purpose being used for another purpose. It happens all the time. When a law is given a meaning that was not intended, it is amended. Everyone agrees with that.
A bad law has been indetified. Even our government at its most stupid would not have actually wanted this. Dopey Dave, Gormless Gordon and Naive Nick should be trying to get our Parliamentay Democracy operating properly as this endless points scoring and electioneering is doing nothing to make Britain a better place to live in. A flaw in our legal system has been identified, so get on with running the country with a government coming up with ways of giving us a better life and the opposition challenging them and improving them. I thought that was what Parliament was supposed to be about.
Or is it just to keep baying bloggers happy? Grow up kids.
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Gordon Brown is no Robert Mugabe - official!
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364 susieflood
That raises an interesting question. If someone calls for a vote of no confidence in the Speaker, will he be in charge of the debate?
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356 Carrots
Schoolboy error Carrots.
Mid Norfolk is a Conservative constituency. Why have you located there?!
The Potato boys are Headquartered in Oxford East - a Labour Constituency - in a road with a politically aspirational name:
Potato Council
4300 Nash Court
John Smith Drive
Oxford Business Park South
Oxford
OX4 2RT
You are only ever going to secure one lobbyist unless you know how to play the system.
Does 'wealth distribution' and 'social mobility' mean nothing to you?!! The whole idea is that you set up your QUANGO in a Labour ward so that tax payers money can be injected directly into the community!
Nobody is interested in Norfolk!
You didn't even locate in a road with a name steeped in Labour history?!
You will only ever be a minor QUANGO unless you wise up like the "Potato Boys" did.
It might be a carrot shaped sail you see on the horizon - but it is also likely to be carrot sized.
I hope the ducks don't sink it on the pond.
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I cannot understand why the video of Gordon Brown, which is doing the rounds on YouTube and posted on a number of blogs, has not been used in a more formal manner by the Conservatives.
In this video, Gordon Brown is being interviewed by Frank Bough sometime during the last Conservative Government. Gordon is happily admitting having a mole within the Conservative Government who has been supplying him with information.
If there is no limitation of proceedings for such a crime, then why have the police not arrested Brown and banged him up for a day or two.
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Having watched the videoI feel cheated. where are the heavily armed police in flack jackets forcing their way in and throwing people to the floor. More like Dixon of Dock Green than the Sweeney
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#370
Don't tell me they sexed up the Intelligence!!??
Surely not!
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Ooops! I shot the bolt too early @354.
CEH is apparently is just a contributer to the blog - not a part of the North American company Radar.
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Re: 371
I'm also amazed at the ignorance from the BBC "pundits", for that is what they seem to be!
The most amazing post from our own NR was, "I am grateful to a colleague for pointing me to the defiant words of Speaker Lenthall to Charles I in 1642."
What political commentator would not be aware of one of the most defining moments in our parliamentary history?
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Browsing through this blog I am struck by the insight if so many bloggers.
The fact is that "dirty tricks" and greater than ever spin have been more prevalent since Mandy and Campbell returned to government.
The fact that news of our hastening move (headlong dash) towards the Euro has been buried by a Police raid on Parliament smacks of classic mandy and Ally.
So we are stuck with the unelected PM and the unelectable Business Secretary.
No wonder there is an ever spreading gloom over this country
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#374 Carrots,
Indeed I am. It's a similar problem from an economic point of view. An Economics lesson for you (I'm sure I've given it before, but there you go)
Defence
It is impossible to exclude people from receiving the benefits of UK expenditure on defence. One person enjoying the benefits of defence spending does not prevent another person enjoying the benefits of that defence spending.
If a voluntary levy to pay for defence were to be levied, no-one would pay it. Why bother when you can get the benefits of defence spending by trying to 'free-ride' on people who pay.
Without the government intervening to force people to pay, there would be no defence spending. The French could invade and impose the Euro on us or even worse. Everyone is worse off because of this market failure.
By imposing a compulsory levy to fund defence spending, we can keep the French out and everyone is better off
Potato Council
It is impossible to exclude potato farmers from the benefits of expenditure on marketing the virtue of eating potatoes in terms of additional potato sales.
If a voluntary levy to pay for potato marketing were to be levied, no-one would pay it. Why bother when you can free-ride on the marketing efforts of those potato farmers who pay the levy.
Without the government intervening to force people to pay, there would be no spending on marketing potatoes. Every potato farmer would be worse off, as less people would buy potatoes meaning less money for every potato farmer.
By imposing a compulsory levy on potato farmers to fund marketing spending, every potato farmer is better off through increasing their sales
So
The net effect of the potato council is that every potato farmer is better off (assuming of course that the marketing expenditure works to increase potato sales by more than the amount of the levy).
The taxpayer has to pay nothing.
There is a tiny impact on price of potatoes to pay for marketing expenditures, in much the same way as there is on most goods sold by oligopolistic firms in the free-market (e.g. Vodafone, Budweiser) to pay for their advertising that they are able to do without government intervention through branding of goods.
If this is a "tax" should we not regulate to prevent every firm from advertising, to avoid the "marketing" tax levied on every single good in the market place
Of course, all this assumes the marketing effort is working, and the Potato Council needs to be accountable to its members to ensure that it is meeting their needs, or can be wound up if it is not.
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Couldn't believe the very biased coverage of the Damian Green affair on the BBC 6.00pm news - following the govt. line that the main concern is the privileges and rights of MPs on the one hand vs the ability of police to investigate wrongdoing by MPs on the other. Even a quote from Brown saying that MPs should not be above the law (but no attempt to point out that Brown quite happily used leaks to embarrass the Govt. when he was in Opposition) Shocking!!!
Most of us are concerned by the politicisation of the police force and the attempt to gag the Opposition from doing its rightful duty in exposing the lies and incompetence of the government.
Compare and contrast the BBC version with the far more balanced coverage on ITN News. How on earth does this tally with fairness, impartiality and objectivity which is supposedly enshrined in the BBC Charter???
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#378 bogbrush
No - it's a combination of factors.
The Government could have:
* Imposed a minimum deposit % on mortgage borrowers (i.e. cap the maximum value of loan that someone on a given income could be given)
* Squashed the buy-to-let market by preventing mortgage products developing for this segment of the market
* Made public pronouncements that houses were over-valued in the hope this would revise expectations
* Increase interest rates above that suitable for the real economy to prick the housing bubble at the cost of recession or lower growth
* Refused to give any support at all to house buyers
* Raise the rate at which stamp duty was charged
* Levy capital gains tax on people's first homes
Quite possible in theory.
However, the Government has to make what it wants to do politicallly acceptable if it wants to be elected (that's good right - it is what kept "Demon Tony" in check and prevented the socialist fires from raging through the economy for the past 11 years)
What do you think the media reaction to some of these policies would be? What would Conservatives have said about this heavy-handed regulation? (Redwood's review and the 2005 manifesto were advocating less regulation in this area for example, and advocating policies to stoke the bubble)?
I suspect it would have lost Labour a lot of votes, which is why the weighed up the disputed evidence that houses were over-valued (I don't recall any of the media or the Conservatives pushing this line until house prices started falling for example) against the high political price they would pay by taking action to reduce house prices, and decided not to act.
So, it's not the Conservatives fault, and with hindsight the government should have regulated. They made a political judgement that they risked not being elected if they pricked the bubble.
Thank God Cameron and Osborne have a crystal ball to enable future decisions to be taken with the benefit of hindsight, and that they are proposing extensive regulation of the whole economy. As their mantra has always gone "The Government knows best"
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We have heard virtually nothing from Gordon Brown over all this. In view of his past knowledge on leaks I think his views would be very relevant.
However he is silent on the matter! I am reminded of Nero fiddling whilst Rome burns.
It is a real pity that both Robin Cook and Mo Mowlem are no longer with us. I would have been very interested in their views on this matter.
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No 390 The gloom clearly arises from a unbelievable lack of understanding. We have never elected a Prime Minister. We elect members of Parliament. The new Business Secretary is a member of the House of Lords, Do you think the Lords should be abolished?
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Still no answer to my #222. Interesting that.
Is any journalist going to brave enough to negotiate THE RAGE and ask Cameron some testing questions about whether he is going to reform laws on FOI to give us wide-open government, or to commit not to take any action at all against moles or if, say, a Labour Party activist infiltrated his private office and passed every single document to an opposition frontbench politician so they could gain political advantage?
I doubt it. THE RAGE has been whipped up to high - the Government are going to interfere in the investigation to stop it in its tracks. Cameron out of this sorry episode smelling of roses.
How come the video of the arrest only surfaced today? I saw the 'heavy-handedness' of 3 unarmed police officers searching the office (one had scary purple latex gloves on - disgraceful), so I guess it explodes that imagery that Cameron was trying to conjure. Also, it keeps THE RAGE going for the showdown tomorrow.
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#393 balhamu
"So, it's not the Conservatives fault, and with hindsight the government should have regulated. They made a political judgement that they risked not being elected if they pricked the bubble."
No, both your lot and the "official" Tories were apparently asleep in their '05 manifestos. Even Cable hadn't woken up to the regulatory issues then, but he did say in '05 LibDem one: "We will tackle irresponsible credit expansion in mortgages and personal loans by curbing misleading advertising and anti-competitive practices by promoters of insurance for mortgages and loans, and of credit cards."
Seems the thread topic has run out out steam, so goodnight all.
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Weird error message on here now when i post.
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balhamu
Trying to reply but the forum won't accept my answer.
Suffice to say that i disagree with your analysis; labout has pretty much done what it lieks for 11 years and they couldn't stop the bubble because the bubble IS the economy.
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357. balhamu
You are the one promoting compulsion to avoid 'freeloading'. Not me.
You still haven't said what how you would apply this to people on benefits.
You are hardly in a position to demand answers from anyone - or do you think you are?
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Let battle commence in the morning. Night all!
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MP's above the law?
No of course not - but parliament is - and if they weren't they would pass a law to make it so - that is 'sovereignty' - that is what we entrust our MP's to be part of.
An MP should not be interfered with by anyone unless parliament has given its consent.
Special Branch were completely out of order - they need to be slapped back into their place.
I will be carrying a video camera all the time from now on - filming every policeman I see - should I be challenged I will simply say "IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE, THEN YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR".
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Is there a difference between terrorism and obtaining information about departmental failings in the Home Office through a leak from a Civil Servant?
Yes, I think most of us know the answer.
It appears that whoever authorised the raid on Damien Green's house and office doesn't.
Should they be responsible for protecting society from genuine terrorists (which is unfortunately a justifiable role for the state given events in recent years) or would both our lives and liberties be beter protected by someone who did understand this difference?
Yes, I think most of us know the answer.
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Fed up with THE RAGE or lack of real eplanation of the issues by journalists
Balanced analysis of Molehills here
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OK - we've had a bit of a debate about freedom of speech on the back of the Damian Green affair.
This is a bit weird coming from me, but their is a 'Labour-Blog' that needs some support to fight a legal issue - libel.
Now - as is probably apparent - I think that Labour need immediate removal (if not sooner), but in the interests of defending free speech, I'm going to do what I can to help.
No need to reply to this post. It is for awareness - and for you to make your own choice on.
Details of the argument are on Iain Dale's blog here:
Labour Home blog in trouble
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From that article I posted above, an explanation of what whistleblowing is under the 1998 Public Disclosure Act:
A qualifying disclosure under the Public Interest Disclosure Act, which is what covers whistleblowing in law, must satisfy one or more of the criteria on this list:
(a) that a criminal offence has been committed, is being committed or is likely to be committed,
(b) that a person has failed, is failing or is likely to fail to comply with any legal obligation to which he is subject,
(c) that a miscarriage of justice has occurred, is occurring or is likely to occur,
(d) that the health or safety of any individual has been, is being or is likely to be endangered,
(e) that the environment has been, is being or is likely to be damaged, or
(f) that information tending to show any matter falling within any one of the preceding paragraphs has been, is being or is likely to be deliberately concealed.
But, such a disclosure is not protected in law if the individual making the disclosure commits a criminal offence in the process, so its impossible to claim whistleblowing as a legal defence if the disclosure breaches the Official Secrets Act and the common law public interest defence used successfully by Clive Ponting was explicitly removed as an option by the Tories in 1989.
Try and put the alleged leaks which occured into one of these categories. There's a challenge for those who would say this is whistleblowing
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I just hope the investigation of the
investigation isn't a sop in order to deflect attention away from the real issue, as all of NuLabours inquiries, reports and investigations invariably end up being.
Nick, why no mention of the extremely sticky situation Jacqui Smith is in? Its obvious she realises she's in trouble from the determined way shes ignoring any and all questions put to her.
On the one hand if she knew in advance of the arrest and raids, why didn't she make sure parliamentary protocol was adhered to? If she didn't know (and its hard to believe it given Boris Johnson et al were informed in advance), then she looks increasingly out of her depth and out of control, given it was her own department that had the leaks and instigated the original investigation to find the mole.
The line that the Police investigation should be independant and unhindered by politicians is laudable, but as Home Secretary, she should have oversight of all major investigations, especially ones involving members of parliament. Oversight means just that: being informed in advance of where things are leading. It doesn't mean pulling strings. To not have oversight and not be aware in advance of the course the investigation was taking looks extremely shoddy, unbelievable and unprofessional.
If it was a deliberate ploy to keep her out of the loop so she could deny responsibility that doesn't wash either and looks even more cynical and manipulative.
Lets see you comment on that please.
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Balhamu
Are you a labour mole applying to work at labour head office?
That you are clearly a labour supporter means you are a complete idiot in my book - however I take people as they are (idiots or not).
However, I do think my time is wasted on you.
ps. Nick any update on mandleson/oleg/eu-tarrifs yet?
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No 403 the real truth.
Could you please keep me informed when you are about to start filming. I am doing a little research into a related matter, and your action and outcome, will make a valuable contribution to my conclusion.
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#401 realtruth
We have a tax and benefit in this country that exempts people who don't have money from paying taxes.
Maybe a poll tax is the answer - everyone plays the same amount of tax regardless of their income or their circumstances.
I would LOVE to see the Conservatives go to election with that as their policy. Bring it on.
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210: regarding your comment about Parliament being a Court, and the police entering a Court, the matter is complex - The Court of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal is also a Court of Record, and as such, as I understand it, its privileges remain at all times. However, The Commons on the other hand, is not a Court of Record, and when not in session, its privileges are much weaker. This is why the arrest took place after the Court of Commons was prorogued, as the member's privileges are weaker, and not so clearly stated. However, the Palace of Westminster, as a location of the Queen's Court, has the privileges of a Royal Residence - however, these privileges are also not so clear, and have weakened over time. This matter will be occupying lawyers at present. I imagine Her Majesty is not too impressed at having police swarm into one of her palaces, to arrest a member of the Court of the Commons, but it is highly unlikely she will ever publicly express her displeasure - although Her Majesty has shown (quite rightly as we now see) that she has no confidence in the current Sergeant at Arms - she has - so it has been reported elsewhere - apparently declined to arrange to meet her subsequent to her appointment by the Speaker, when an attempt was made to arrange for the traditional audience following appointment.
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391 Balhamu
"or can be wound up if it is not."
How easy / difficult would it be for potato farmers to get of of the Potato Council and their levies?
What steps would the farmers need to take to remove the "spud bureaucrats"?
Would they need to act as a collective to rid themselves of the marketing benefits of the potato council or can individual farmers opt out?
Is it cheaper to tolerate 'the benefits' of the Potato Council, than invest to get rid of them?
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Given that some folks in here read "systems developer" when I said "software developer", that rules a chunk of you guys out. That's like the Jacqui Smith interview: some of you guys talked her down as haggard when I just saw you didn't get some woman with DD breasts and "come get me" red lipstick.
I think, some of you folks leap on labels like "counter-terrorism" and blow them up and lack broader understanding. I don't think the media helps nor do tinfoil hat comments racing around the net. It's instantly consumable and passable like some 'I love you' virus email but low value stuff.
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#399 Bogbrush - maybe there's a common sense filter in operation
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391. balhamu
I come back to the point that the end user pays the levy. Growers don’t just absorb it and pay for it out of profits do they, they pass it on. So you pay for it when you buy chips and if they are from a chippy, then VAT is also added on top of the levy.
Let me give a really good example how this principle works.
When the congestion charge was introduced it was a fiver, it was essentially a compulsory levy on any vehicle coming into the city. Almost every courier simply stuck 5 quid on a package. I asked a driver that same week why this was the case, surely you make more than one drop a day I remarked. Oh sure he replied its just what everyone is doing. He also offered that the lighter traffic meant he got more drops in a day.
My offices receive and send out a lot of couriered mail, I had admin check this out, and sure enough every company was adding a fiver to each drop.
So not only were the couriers adding the fiver a day, almost all were adding a lot more, I guess a van makes at least 10 drops a day and if so the a levy of a fiver became fifty. I bet the governors of those firms wernt fighting for the levy to be dropped either.
SO who paid for that. Well at first we did, then we got wise (took us about 2 weeks) and we passed it on too.
Now I cant say here what I do for a living but trust me our cost is passed right on, and on and on and its the little guy at the end of the food chain that pays the levy.
And that is one of the most basic rules of economics there is… the little guy pays.
I for one think that this is a little unfair.
So when you hear that Wolverhampton City Primary Care Trust will be recruiting 25 lifestyle coaches at a cost of £700,000 in an effort to get smokers and drinkers to kick their bad habits. (thats true by the way announced today) YOU pick up the tab, you might not actually pay any extra tax, but some other service that you, a loved one or friend requires when they really need it… You know like a incubator for a premature baby or a flak jacket for a son soldiering in Iraq just wont be there.
But hey ho at least that prisoner is getting an hours counselling to help him give up tobacco. Not to mention the councillor himself getting no end of perks and being totally insulated from market forces.
And NuLabour get to feel all warm and self congratulatory about that and the PM just has the small inconvenience of reading out another dead soldiers name before he doest answer any questions.
Funny old world....Eh?
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Is this really of any interest and I mean REAL, earth-shattering, ground-breaking importance or is it just another self-absorbed political and probably personal, opinion poll-driven spat?
Meanwhile the economy collapses, terrorism increases, child care suffers and more and more people lose interest in politicians of both sides who try and score headline grabbing points against eachother rather than getting on with what's real.
I DON'T care if a politician's office and home were raided by police; if he doesn't have anything to worry about, then there is nothing to worry about. Politicians are constantly playing to the media limelight and I take their expressions of "shock" or "outrage" (or indeed anything) with a huge pinch of salt.
By contrast, I DO care about police shooting innocent people on tube carriages, forty something days to hold someone for questioning, racism in the forces and so on.
I'm sure I will be corrected and told that there is something significant, sinister, crucial in all this but my gut feeling is telling me different. Enough footage of polite policeman in an office - so what.
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Nick
Care to comment on Ben Wrights article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7755974.stm.
His headline is:
Police raids herald new era for MPs
I kind of thought this was just an aberration by our unplanned 'national police force' showing why having a 'national police force' is such a dangerous idea.
As policitcal editor what do you think?
A new era? or an aberration?
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No83 Jonathan. Do you actually believe that we elect Prime Ministers? If so could I suggest that you enrol on a political science course - Grade1. Lord Mandelson and Alistair will only need to work at 10% capacity to deal with such nonsense.
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395 Bravesouter
No - you are right - we haven't directly elected a Prime Minister
What makes the current PM a special cause for concern, is that his ambition seems to override common sense or his sense of duty to the country.
The evidence is overwhelming, Gordon wants to win a vote at a general election whilst standing as the candidate for Prime Minister. Nothing else will satiate his ambition.
Take a look at the PBR to feel a sense of the scale of this ambition.
Unprecedented tax cuts and then unprecedented tax rises before and after a certain date in 2010. Look at the numbers (and timing).
The major clue, that this is about Gordon's election ambition rather than being in the benefit of the UK, is that the VAT cut is clearly useless as a Fiscal Stimulus.
The VAT cut will only work as something Gordon can spout on about as "helping hardworking families" on the sofas of GMTV.
We all know it will have no practical effect.
Gordon's personal ambition is going to be expensive for generations to come.
"Generation-X" will hand over to "Generation-taX".
Tax was expensive for the forerunners. It'll be worse for those that have to pick up the pieces post Gordon's election bid.
Is Gordon's ego worth all the pain that millions will suffer over a period of years?
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384. jonathan_cook
My whole business plan is in tatters, Im just not cut out for this public sector lark.
Norfolk is where the carrots are… we are doomed. What do I tell the carrot growers. No levy for you?
I guess the yacht was just a pipe dream. If only I could get one, Id sail the coast marketing carrots to every beach in Britain.
:-(
HEY !!
Don’t suppose you want a consultants job do you, only need you 2 days a month….. 60 K and a small sporty Merc sound alright ??
We can share the yacht.
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#405 sillins
So I take it you would retract that inference if the police did not use anti-terrorism legislation to arrest Mr Green?
The police say they arrested Mr Green on suspicion of "conspiring to commit misconduct in a public office" and "aiding and abetting, counselling or procuring misconduct in a public office".
The Metropolitan Police says that neither the search nor the arrest were conducted under the provisions of anti-terrorism legislation
Leaves you (and the Telegraph article quoted above) with the rather weaker "anti-terrorism" police were used, even if anti-terrorism laws were not.
Even that is misleading.
Special Branch officers have ALWAYS been used to investigate allegations of this type, for example, see Hansard debates of events in 1987
As part of restructuring in October 2006 to help better organise the Met to deal with terror, Special Branch (SO12) was moved into the new Counter Terrorism Command (SO15)
So no surprise Special Branch were used. They're now part of counter-terrorism command. But the 'heavy-handed' imagery you are trying to conjure, or the shock that 'anti-terrorism officers' were used is just ridiculous.
The section of the police who normally investigate criminal behaviour in respect to leaks from the civil service were used - is that such a scandal or a surprise? Surely it would have been a surprise only if someone other than special branch were used for the arrest?
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Quite frankly, I'm surprised the Met didn't shoot Damien Green. He was. after all, wearing a jacket which could have had a bomb under it, and he has got slightly Russian-looking eyes. They would have got away with it, as well - just say "I thought my life was in danger" and nobody's to blame.
Oh, sorry, I forgot - they only shoot innocent people. I guess he's safe, then, until they decide not to prosecute him. Then, Mr Green, watch out - the police are coming to get you. They're coming to get us all!
Gone are the days when the police used to fight the real criminals, and the rest of us slept easy. Now, it's the police against everybody else, and nobody's safe.
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Given the UK's financial situation - this is common sense - but worrying all the same:
"The problem is that whilst the recession will force the private sector to contract, there is currently no mechanism to make the public sector take some of the pain."
More on this subject can be found here:
Don't shoot the messenger - even though you won't like him!
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MPs are not above the law. But neither are the police above Parliament. The police are not the law and they do not get to interpret it. That privilege is reserved to the Courts. And the police are not independent as Jackboot Jacqui would have us believe.
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I must thank a former DPP and Paxo for saving me the research I had scheduled for later this evening. It was, however, only quoted in part, and I therefore quote the entire Article as it is relevant.
ECHR ARTICLE 10
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. this right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or the rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.
In passing, this puts an interesting light on certain experiences various correspondants with this blog have had grounds to complain about of late.
The case quoted was one where a judge recently threw out the prosecution of a leaker because the immateriality of the material leaked did not extend into the scope of the exclusions provided.
However, there are provisions to subject the article to legal constraints in the interest, amongst others:
1. "for the protection of the reputation of others". It is interesting that it does not say the good reputation, it may also be used to establish a bad reputation, therefore this ostensible exclusion falls.
2. "for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence". This is the nub of the matter, does a Civil Servant have a responsibility beyond that of their duty to their Minister? The Cabinet Office website partially provides an answer, that the Civil Service has a Propriety and Ethics team whose responsibility specifically includes both the Civil Service Management Code and quite specifically Civil Servants' involvement in political activities.
In this respect, the Code states:
4.2.2 Civil servants are expected to be prepared to make available official information which is not held in confidence within Government, in accordance with Government policy and departmental or agency instructions. They must not, without relevant authorisation, disclose official information which has been communicated in confidence within Government or received in confidence from others. Government policy in this area is available via the website of the Department for Constitutional Affairs at http://www.foi.gov.uk/index.htm.
...
4.2.4 Civil servants must not take part in any activities or make any public statement which might involve the disclosure of official information or draw upon experience gained in their official capacity without the prior approval of their department or agency. They must clear in advance material for publication, broadcasts or other public discussion which draws on official information or experience.
...
4.2.6 Civil servants must not seek to frustrate the policies or decisions of Ministers by the use or disclosure outside the Government of any information to which they have had access as civil servants.
4.2.7 In discharging their duties under paragraphs 5 and 9 of the Civil Service Code (Section 4.1 Annex A), civil servants must maintain the long-standing conventions that new Administrations do not normally have access to papers of a previous Administration of a different political complexion. The conventions cover, in particular, Ministers' own deliberations and the advice given to them by officials, other than written advice from the Law Officers and those papers which were published or put in the public domain by the predecessor Administration. In applying the conventions to the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales, any information contained in the administrative and departmental records belonging to a Minister of the Crown or a UK Government department should be treated as if it were contained in papers of a previous Administration of a different political complexion.
...
Leaked Select Committee Reports
4.2.10 Civil Servants in receipt of a leaked Select Committee report must not make any use of it nor circulate it further. They must return the report without delay to the Clerk of the relevant Committee, and only then may they inform their Ministers or Assembly Secretaries. Leaked reports from Committees of the devolved legislatures must be handled in the same way.
This is quite clear that government confidentiality has defined limits, and the documents leaked must be examined on a case by case basis for compliance with these fairly generous conditions.
It does not at this point seem that Mr Galley's case has been referred to the Ethics team, which makes any disciplinary measures taken against him (such as being arrested by the Police) a very remunerative mistake.
There is yet another exclusion, "being announced publicly as a candidate for Parliament". As there is no election in the offing, this does not apply, and the Code is clear that political views are not in themselves incompatible with the functioning of a Civil Servant, specifically:
4.4 Annex A: Guidelines and Principles on Participation in Political Activities
1. In exercising discretion over participation by civil servants in the political activities described in paragraph 4.4.3, departments and agencies must pay regard to the following principles:
a. permission should normally only be refused where civil servants are employed in sensitive areas in which the impartiality of the Civil Service is most at risk. Permission may be granted to individuals or groups to undertake either only national or only local political activities;
b. permission should normally be granted in all other circumstances, provided departments and agencies are satisfied that the civil servants concerned are aware of the need to observe the principles set out in paragraphs 4.4.10 and 4.4.11 and the other rules governing the conduct of civil servants, including those relating to the use of official information.
2. In applying these principles, departments and agencies should regard posts as being “sensitive” if:
a. they are closely engaged in policy assistance to Ministers (or to non-departmental Crown bodies) such as tendering advice or executing immediate Ministerial directives;
b. they are in the private offices of Ministers or senior officials or in areas which are politically sensitive or subject to national security;
c. they require the postholder regularly to speak for the Government or their department or agency in dealings with commercial undertakings, pressure groups, local government, public authorities or any other bodies;
...
It is to be noted that the test is both sensitivity AND putting the neutrality of the Civil Service at risk. In this respect, allowing himself to be gagged by the Home Secretary would have fallen under this interdict, whereas this rule actually offers a hard defence for his behaviour - he was obeying the Code.
One wonders how the rest of the Home Office feels, with the possibility of other officials coming under examination. The days of the Star Chamber are back, I fear - research it in wikipedia, its roots and practices are most relevant to yesterday's ministerial meeting.
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I have just read 408 and 410 I think I know who the idiot is.
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And the latest from ZaNuLabour HQ... we're all going to have to hand over our papers on demand else be sent to prison:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/3543266/Police-and-immigration-given-powers-to-demand-to-see-identification.html
Damien Green... police state anyone?
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Misses the point.
The police should never have been involved. The former DDP on Newnight said they should have been consulting the DDP and were not.
Serious questions would have been raised including
- the level of seriousness of the leaks
- the evidence
- the constitution
- parliamentary traditions, including leaking
- the British juries unwillingness to convict leakers.
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I'm beginning to believe Jacqui Smith I don't think she did know about the arrest beforehand because I don't believe she is in control of her department, nor does she appear to know what goes on there
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#410 realtruth
Balhamu
Are you a labour mole applying to work at labour head office?
That you are clearly a labour supporter means you are a complete idiot in my book - however I take people as they are (idiots or not).
However, I do think my time is wasted on you.
Er, right.
Because I disagree with you and I don't buy THE RAGE, the assertion that no wrong-doing has been done by the subjects of the police investigation (I'd rather wait for the facts to come out first, though to be honest it's not looking good for Cameron is it - I suspect this is why there is such a concerted attempt to apply political pressure on the police to halt the investigation), and the comparisons with Stalin and Mugabe.
Because I'm polite, back up my arguments with fact and am willing to talk nicely on here to people I disagree with, rather than bile-fuelled rants either at politicians whose points of view I disagree with or at posters here who I disagree with.
You've lost the argument (and clearly have no understanding of economics) so you are starting a smear campaign to try and discredit my argument that way.
And I am not a Labour Party member, and have criticised them on a number of occasions both in this post and others.
I am no Conservative though, which is something that I guess you have trouble with understanding (or at least someone does given the amount of times I've been referred recently).
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#410 realtruth
I really hope that Cameron embarks on a re-education programme to teach me the true way of thinking and to stop me being an idiot.
Maybe I can join THE RAGE one day?
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#416 jonathancook
I don't know everything about the Potato Council (was interested in carrots continued reference to it so I did a little research into what it did, because he makes it sound like a complete waste of time).
If there is pressure from potato farmers to abolish this quango, it should be abolished. Whether that is the case or not I do not know.
I asked carrots before for some evidence that potato farmers were angry and wanted the Council wound up, but he couldn't provide it. I suspect a Marketing Body would be swiftly wound up if its members did not want it (it would reduce Government spending, which helps the government politically as I rather suspect it does not care that much about potato farmers compared to e.g. the NHS)
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#419 carrots
What if the potato farmers could some how come together voluntarily and market their potatoes and get over this free-rider problem. Would this be undesirable - you'd still pay a tiny amount for their advertising on each potato you buy?
Or if the entire potato farming industry was controlled by 4 or 5 big companies, who were able to brand their potatoes (e.g. by gaining a monopoly over different varieties of potatoes), and so able to advertise the product as unique in the same way e.g. mobile phones, beer or running shoes. Would this be undesirable - you'd still pay a tiny amount for their advertising on each potato you buy?
Do you resent having to pay for the marketing expenditure of virtually every consumer good you buy?
Or is it only marketing expenditure in perfectly competitive industries enabled by the state getting over the free-rider problem you disagree with?
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418 Laughatthetories
I think you must be right.
The common sense filter seems to have deleted the rest of your message.
I think that is called "small mercies 2.0"
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413. balhamu
You really have lost it haven't you.
It is you who suggested that compulsion was required to prevent freeloaders.
So if you want to propose a poll tax on every one - including those that are on benefits?!?!?!, then do so.
But don't take your mad ideas and suggest that they came from elsewhere...
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poor moderators on overtime and stake doughnuts again?
I wonder if all this furore began with a carefully worded phrase with no facts behind it? (crafted political untruth?)
ARE there really 16 other points?
Is it possible that these 2 people discovered something juicy and unsavoury about the lady in question which she ABSOLUTELY had to stop being revealed?
Exactly what constitutes 'inducement'? Does an offer to buy a cuppa or a drnk or a sandwich count?
This fiasco is utterly ridiculous!
We will never know the truth-and as for swearing on a bible to tell the truth-to feel seriously obligated to speak nothing but, a deep sense of respect for the Holy Bible has to be in the oath taker.
If there are police officers of such calibre acting in this way, they must be sat twiddling their thumbs/acting on correct info they are not at liberty to reveal/acting on info they believe is correct/being controlled in order for another to shine in time to get a plummy job!
Betty would have dragged them all out by their ears, and given Jacqui and others a very severe , publically humiliating dressing down!
The longer this goes round in circles, the darker the lack of full info becomes!
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424 Carrots
All is not lost you know. I can help.....
On the plus side - you have a useless venture. That counts a lot when bidding for public money.
So you plan to sail from beach to beach marketing carrots? This is a great idea!
First thing you need though - staff. You are only going to find them in an urban location. At minimum you will need:
1. CEO (You?)
2. Secretary
3. FD
4. COO
5. Head of IT
6. Lobbyists - as many as possible
7. Analysts - as many as possible
8. Consultants with real world carrot experience - 2 or 3 should do.
9. Policy advisor
10. Central Government liaison officer/s
11. Microbiologist (you need to be able to respond in times of crisis - imagine a 'Carrot blight' or worse)
12. HR manager - clearly
13. PR team
14. Accountants
15. Fund raisers
To recruit the dedicated and high quality team that I have outlined above - well you will need to be located in an urban area. The wilds of Norfolk might be nice - but - I think I explained how it works in my previous post.
You should consider Norwich South - MP= Charles Clarke - Labour (OK so he looks like a potato rather than a carrot, but your PR people will deal with this for you).
Next - find a location that proves your commitment to the political cause. Here are some suggestions - check them on Google maps:
Blair House = NR16
Cherie Amour = NR13
BBC Norwich = NR2 (although beware Alan Partridge)
Once you are set up - things get simpler.
The way to prove your QUANGOs worth - is to ensure you raise your budget request annually.
The golden rule is this:
A Budget cut shows no progress achieved. Whereas a budget increase could only be required due to increased public demand for your services.
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when Gordy came out of his bunker,
He began to shout-
You raves and rants are nothing but pants,
Your fears unfounded too!
I'm always right
My fiscal might
Will fix the whole world too!
When Gordy came out of his bunker,
His nose just grew and grew!
It's panto season everyone!
There can be no other explanation for the slapstick of the last few weeks!
Custard pie anyone?
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The one person who's not in headlong retreat, and should be, is Jacqui Smith.
The BBC reported yesterday afternoon that she had the temerity to write to Dominic Grieve QC demanding that he disclose any other leaked material in Tory possession.
When, on earth, did it become the responsibility of an opposition party to give the Government advance notice of embarrassment material?
It is an utterly contemptible response which betrays the woman's complete inability to grasp that a constitutional issue engages at all. What does it say of her respect for Parliamentary Privilege that she could even contemplate such a demand? Rather than make a statement tomorrow, she should resign.
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# 159 MarkofSOSH
No, I'm not kidding. Brown has sought and failed to create an egalitarian society. His muddled understanding of human behaviour and the laws of economics, and his natural tendency to operate by deceit and stealth have meant that his unswerving socialist instincts have not been converted into socialism per se.
But there's no question that the UK now suffers from all of the worst characteristics of a socialist state: a huge, bloated and wasteful public sector; high and growing taxes (applied by stealth); a shameful government disdain for the armed forces; laws and policies that assume the state always knows better than the individual citizen how to solve all of society's problems; a chronic erosion of the UK's economic performance in terms of international competitiveness and productivity.
As Churchill once said of socialism, "No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance".
I wonder if the Met's blunder into Parliament recently might be construed as our "political police" just going about their, er, legitimate business? The Labour Party seems to be wading in behind the Met with gusto. So, yep, I'm confident we've been on the receiving end of 10 years of socialism, albeit incompetently executed - Labour's hallmark.
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