Two political gambles
Two rival news conferences, two competing economic approaches, two political gambles.
First David Cameron, then Gordon Brown made their choices clear this morning. The prime minister is promising what he calls a fiscal stimulus, or what you may recall he used to condemn as an unfunded tax cut. This, he claims, is the right time for this new approach.
Meantime, David Cameron has adopted his rival's shunned old friend, Prudence. He insists that it's irresponsible to pay for tax cuts this way and promises instead funded tax breaks to incentivise businesses to take on new workers.
Gordon Brown is gambling that he will be rewarded rather than punished for a policy U-turn at what is a unique time. David Cameron is betting that there will be long term rewards even if there's short term pain in appearing rather too responsible.
Both men have an interest as presenting this as a big political divide. It may in truth turn out to be much less so.
If the government loosens fiscal policy by just a few billion, that stimulus will be dwarfed by the scale of the recession.
In addition, David Cameron's claim that his tax cuts' promises are all "funded" is about to be put under heavy scrutiny as Labour claim he's implausibly promising to spend £12bn in this way.
UPDATE, 2:30PM: At this morning's Downing Street news conference I asked the prime minister whether he'd be honest with the electorate and admit that taxes would have to go up after the recession. He replied that now wasn't the time to make predictions for several years ahead.
The employment minister, Tony McNulty, was clearer when pressed on the same point by Andrew Neil on the Daily Politics this morning as you can see here.
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Can't see the point of tinkering about like this - the recession is coming our way - scientific fact we're taking here ...
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Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee agreed to have a battle...
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All David cameron has to do is cancel the ludicrous ID card scheme
£12 billion at the drop of the hat - no problems
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I think that when one considers what is being proposed by both Labour and the Conservatives, one has to ask the simple question "who led us into this mess in the first place".
Would I trust Brown to lead the UK out of recession, given that he was a major player in getting the UK into this state?
No.
Brown has screwed up our finances and we are broke. Worse than that, we are hugely in debt, thanks to his policies (PFI not least amongst them).
If Brown wants us to trust him to lead, he should apply for a fresh mandate - give us a General Election.
But he won't. He is a political coward.
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Why is Brown allowed to get away with a single answer to a single question at his press conferences ? Surely, as a serious journalist, Nick, you should refuse to accept a 'non-answer' to your question and should make a supplementary.
There are so many contradictions in Brown's actions at the moment - all of his intellectual credibility is vanishing, and instead what we are seeing is blind populism. This is NOT leadership - it is the cheapest form of politics there is.
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The only thing about Gordon Brown's big ideas that I am sure of, is that I will eventually end up paying for them.
Having spent the past 11 years sneakily finding more and more obscure ways to tax us all, this really doesn't sit with view of the world up to now.
We can only watch and wait as to what happens .....
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Nick,
You miss two key things....
1. Labour's jettisoned it's fiscal rules, to borrow to invest.
Not borrow to give away tax cuts. Gordon was only too quick to chide such behaviour.
Rank hypocrisy and intellectual bankruptcy from Gordom.
2. Fiscal stimulus is trying to have your cake and eating it.
So Brown borrows money on behalf of the taxpayer to give money back to the taxpayers he chooses.
Taxpayers who then spend it and then have all taxpayers pay back the borrowing.
So it is no such thing as a tax cuts... it is simply deferred borrowing and even more interest to repay.
In the medium term how is having to provide more taxes to pay back more borrowing any kind of stimulus?
The prudent thing to do would be to curtail government spending and simply give that money back to the taxpayer.
But then, wouldn't be admitting that taxpayers spend their money in ways better than government?
And that would never do.
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This morning's conference was pure Gordon Brown hyperbole - "we need to renew the global financial system"
The usual guff without the manner or method of delivery.
He didn't answer any of the questions because he couldn't; where is the timetable of co-ordinated fiscal policies; how are other governments going to afford it if they haven't been so prudent? Will taxes go up to pay for this at a later date? No answers.
The man is a fraud. "Collleges of supervisers that will cross national boundaries" More rhetoric and hyperbole.
Ill thought through, rushed out non policy to try not to look on the back foot after Cameron's announcements. The sham government. Nothing of substance.
There was also considerable disbelief amongst the questioners that he had actually said anything at all. Because, of course, he hadn't.
Even Gordon Brown has started to understand there is actual nothing coming out of his mouth anymore except blandishment after blandishment "taking the action that is necessary" Who is? With what? It was breathtaking; by the end you could tell that even Gordon Brown had stopped either believing or understanding what he was talking about.
Newlabour have become a tragic charicature of themselves of style over substance; lots of photo opportunites with world leaders and no substantive action whatever.
It's not enough to win an election. I suggest they stay in power while it collapses all around them.
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@ 1
And you can't buck science, can you? - given the severity of the downturn (because of the excess of the boom years) monkeying around with tax at this point is like trying to get water to flow up a hill.
But if it's going to be done, I'd favour a nice simple doubling of the personal allowance, funded by a new higher rate of 50 pc on incomes over 75,000.
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Gordon Brown has derided Cameron for not having the money to pay for the tax cuts then in the same breath says he's borrowing the money to pay for his...forgive me but does that not mean that Brown doesn't have the money to pay for his tax cuts either? Either Brown is stupid or it's me that's stupid, it must be me.. he's the Prime Minister after all.
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weejonnie 11:45 is not being bold enough.
If he wants to save money, start with the ID scheme. Pull out of two wars, reduce civil servant pension schemes, abandon NH computer plans, slow down the new schools program (It never really started), reduce doctors pay, abolish tax credits.
Did Gordon ever correctly predict the PSBR in the last 10 years?
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its time these parties gave up there stupid fighting and resolved there differences in order to sort out this countries problems not just blow there own trumpets.
is it not in the best interest of the people of this country that westminster works towards a single goal with out the media hype or public fighting.
watching these mp's i get the feeling they are straight out of primary school with there hand bags at fifty paces duels and silly arguements.
this country apears to be in the hands of childish fools who are cutting off there noses in spite of there faces.
the BBC should send each mp a copy of the getalong gang as a learning aid to them.
the only other option is for the people to rise up and demand a change.
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Politically a smart move by Cameron. But "National Insurance breaks to firms which employ people who have been unemployed for more than three months"? Three months is a pretty short time in which to second-guess redundancies that arise from a shortfall in business income. And what a marvellous excuse to sack three people now and take two back on in three months time scot free. It is unlikely that an employer needing to save a guy's 25k pay cheque will change his mind for the carrot of 2.5k. You'd need to take on 10 'Cameron staff' to save one job. Benefit saving? What benefit saving?
Fiscally responsible, not necessarily. Good old Tory rhetoric with fiscal vocabulary more like.
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This mornings conferences were miles apart.
DC was clear, concise and explained where the money will be saved to make these small (but needed) breaks.
GB waffled on about the uk/world economic issues and hardly mentioned anything about what he will be proposing to help people.
We all know there is no money to play with, which is why the Tories plan seems reasonable, however small it is. GB mentioned right at the end, "fiscal stimulas, including borrowing". Those 4 words were enough to convince me he has'nt listened at all and is still hell bent on racking up a load of additional borrowing for a pre-election tax cut bribe, I wonder how many people are still thinking how they will be reimbursed next year for the 10p tax fiasco?? I know where my vote is going after this mornings conferences.
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@10 wellerman
If you're stupid, so am I. I thought exactly the same thing.
I suppose that's what Gordon does, makes us all look stupid.
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Interesting, but both Brown and Cameron were condemning Clegg's tax cut plans a month ago. How do they compare with the LibDem original in this field?
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#11 timharkersmith
I agree with your savings. Although even if we were not heading for a severe downturn somerthing would have to be done about civil servant pensions. All final salary pension schemes ought to have an upper limit cap on a pension. There are some ludicrous figures being bandied about from upper six to seven figure sums - given that we will live longer the future costs are mindboggling!
I would also add the two replacement aircraft carriers - the Chiefs of Staff in the Armed Forces are not keen as it virtually swallows up future budgets. Ministers are keen for the jobs in labour constituencies.
Doubtless there are many more.
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Nick,
Why not call it what it is;
Fiscal irresponsibility?
Next a run on the pound with interest rates going through the roof. We will need to borrow, what will be charged by investors to a financially incontinent country? The government gave a clue when it charged financially incontinent banks 12%.
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This country is insane.
Brown has borrowed, taxed and spent his way into recession.
He now wants to borrow, tax and spend his way out of recession - without a care for value for money or the principles of basic financial management.
With barely a challenge - the media let Brown get away with smoke and mirrors and lies on a scale that has probably never been seen before (in any country? ever?).
Why on earth do we allow Brown to remain in office?
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Nick
The words headless and chickens enter my head, univited but loud.
I think we are having to choose between :
Brown who being in a deep hole of his own making, wants to keep digging in order to preserve jobs and in the hope that the howl won't be too deep to climb out and
Cameron who wants to dig a new hole for the same reason in the belief that both will be shallower and easier to fill than the already deep Brown one if he keeps digging.
By the way, I like how Gordon went from years of praising the City whlist insisiting he would not dress up in thier elitist white tie uniform to criticising their irresponsibilty pausing only to join their white tied ranks.
Also his selling the virtues of the 70 year old approach promoted by Keynes whilst simultaneously telling us this is no time for old approaches.
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Repeat from the previous thread but probably more relevant here....
What I think we need, is to get this recession out of the way as quickly as possible. At the moment all we're doing is prolonging the agony by seeking to prop up the price of our insanely over-valued property.
What we need to do is prompt a rush for the door - get property down to sensible prices. Simple. Announce that from (say) 1st May 2009 any capital gain on property will be taxed at 40%. Ie give people enough warning to get their property marketed and sold. Those who have remortgaged for life's little luxuries like 4x4s, Plasma TVs and all-inclusive holidays in Cancun won't be able to sell without getting a tax-bill they can't pay so they'll be forced to sit tight and pay off their debts. Good, the right folk getting their just desserts.
That should do the job. Property crash out of the way by 1st May as folk rush to get their money out. Property at a newer, lower, more affordable level. Property speculation discouraged by the thought of handing 40% of any gain to the thieves of Westminster.
Once our national obsession with property and the 'good' effects of it being insanely over-priced are out of the way we can get on with the business of redirecting our money to more fruitful lines of business.
As for funding tax cuts. Again. Dead easy. Simplify the tax system and then fire all the civil servants who were administrating the old, more complex system. Should be able to halve the payroll at elast.
Fire the entire BBC licencing operation. Sell the BBC to Rupert Murdoch or Al Jazeera.
Fire at least half the DVLC people. Fire everybody connected with ID cards and cancel all the contracts.
Walk through hospitals firing anybody not in uniform. Cancel all their technology contracts.
But those would be 'tough' decisions. What we'll get is the easy decisions. Do you hear that sound? That's the sound of the printing presses down at the Royal Mint. That's the sound of all our futures being flushed down the toilet by the agents of arrogance and incompetence.
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I'm actually with Cameron on this one and I think he's finally done enough to win my vote. Any tax reductions or holidays should be aimed at stimulating business and not simply dished out to taxpayers too terrified to spend.
If Gordon really wanted to make a difference, perhaps he could find the time to finally take the scissors to the miles of red tape that currently strangles our economy and costs the country billions of pounds a year. Scrapping tax credits and raising the starting tax band would save a couple of billion in fraud, miscalculations and civil servants too.
As for Browns' hints at tax cuts, what's the point? As a hard working middle income tax payer, I'm sure Gordon (or should that be Alistair ? do we still have a chancellor?) won't be aiming any tax cuts at me. And if he does, any reduction will probably only amount to an extras £20 in my pocket per month. But given the perilous state of the UK economy, that £20 isn't going to convince me to go out and buy a new car or kitchen any time soon.
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I think labour are making a good comeback. As someone who thought they would definately vote Tory I find labour's willingness to change policies (like VED retrospection, 10% tax and toning down green tax initiatives) is appealing.
The Tories seem to be making very heavy weather of it - where is Osbourne?
When the Tories do say something its quite depressing and still very environmentally correct - which may of us with real and immediate issues don't want to hear.
If it carries on like this maybe Brown can make a real comeback.
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Nick
Brown is dithering.
He keeps saying that things are being done, and there will be anouncements about them, but he doesn't say what they are - maybe because he doesn't know yet?
He also said that he was waiting to see what the rest of the world were going to do so he could try to look like he was leading them !
He said nothing of substance - just more waffle.
Cameron, on the other hand, offered brown a range of measures that could be implemented quickly, simply at no cost.
There really is no competition...
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The Nation's economy is in an appallingly bad condition and we no longer have the luxury of playing politics with it. This is a national emergency.
Political sniping will delay doing the right things the party leaders need to come together in a National Government to get things done.
We have a history of National Governments in extreme circumstances - if the current circumstances of an almost bankrupt banking sector and imminent widespread commercial collapse is not such a circumstance I don't know what is.
The three kids (Gordon, Dave and Nick) need to get together and work on solutions. The Nation cannot afford them to be working to destroy each other as that will destroy the Nation.
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The World at One has just given prominence to Gordon Brown's assertion that the Conservative's employment measure is unfunded (even though David Cameron has explained quite convincingly that it is anything but). We are soon going to hear Brown promoting his own measures that he admits from the outset will have to be funded by borrowing.
So, setting aside Browns "factual inexactitude" in his response to the Conservatives, just what is the difference between an unfunded measure and a measure funded by borrowing?
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So the Keynesian argument is a dirty phenomenon this week then?
Any takers on what the hells going to happen nest week?
GB today (11/11/08):
Business Secretary Peter Mandelson would propose a new code for banks on business lending.
Good night everyone. Last one out, turn off the lights.
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This is Brown's scorched-earth policy: having already wrecked the economy, he wants to make sure there's as much poison in the chalice for the next government as he can.
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More bovine biological solids, methinks, from our political class.
Who cares what these fatuous oafs from yesterday have to say? They are becoming irrelevant. Times are changing and changing fast.
They are still trying to stop a recession. We are already in a recession and the worst has not yet hit. The issue now is whether it will be a deep recession or a slump. As always when in situations where it will be an option of either bad or worse, I opt for worse.
Yes, we need less tax. Yes, the people need to keep more of their own money in their pocket. But that is a demand that stands for good times as well as bad. Why the sudden change now?
Will government spending be switched from supporting an ever growing bureaucracy of inspectors, registers, list keepers and box tickers and directed into economic development? Of course not: so what are we talking about?
Oh yes, change now and Brown-Cameron will keep their jobs. That is what it is all about. No principle, no policy just crude survival.
Bring on the tumbrils!
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Novice_boy@15
Actually reminds me of an old episode of Blackadder Goes Forth, very topical for today of course...I think I'll be Baldrick you can be George and good old crafty Gordon can be Blackadder !!
Blackadder: Just use your imagination for heavens sake. [thinks] Wait a minute, that's the answer. I can't believe I've been so stupid.
Baldrick: Yeah, that is unusual, 'cos usually I'm the stupid one.
George: Well, I'm not over-furnished in the brain department.
Blackadder: Well, on this occasion I've been stupidest of all.
George: Oh, now sir! I will not have that! Baldrick and I will always be more stupid than you. Isn't that right Baldrick?
[standing up] Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Baldrick: Yeah, [standing up also] stupidy, stupidy, stupidy.
[Flares are fired, lighting up George and Baldrick.
Blackadder cowers on the ground.]
George: Stupidest stupids in the whole history of stupidityness.
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#22
But given the perilous state of the UK economy, that ?20 isn't going to convince me to go out and buy a new car or kitchen any time soon.
Yep. Good point. The same is true of interest rate cuts. The only people who will be encouraged too go out and start spending on consumer unnecessaries or go out and pay the asking price for a house at the moment are the extremely-hard-of-thinking.
Interest rate cuts and tax cuts are only going to prompt the suddenly awakened UK voter to pay down some of that debt they ran up over the past decade. Gordon Brown might like to join them. Pull in his belt a bit. Cancel all of the miriad pointless projects he has on the go or in the pipeline. Vanity projects that will add no value to UK PLC but will remain as white elephant monuments to his waste for generations to come.
The only people who will take that tax cut or interest rate cut and go out and squander even more money are the people who we should be reporting to the credit scoring agencies. The extreme end of the lunatic behaviour that got us all into this economic mess in the first place. You can be sure that the guy going on the biggest borrowing and squandering binge in UK history will be the guy who has already borrowed more money than all UK chancellors in history added together. And that was before we went into recession.
He's only got another 18 months but I confidently predict he'll have trebled our national debt by spring 2010 and that his printing press economics will take a generation of hard graft to get back under control if indeed it proves even possible to pull out of the tail-spin he's kicked us all into.
We may be looking at a new Year Zero for the UK economy before this is over.
That's how bad the outlook is with this dementor in charge.
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Cameron's increasing desperation does not invoke confidence. Scuttling around studios, changing his tune all the time. Just because he speaks well does not mean he has anything meaningful to convey. His measures (today) seem totally inadequate for what most people are having to face.
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I do hope every one of Gordons Back benchers now shouts at him as they have for every tory tax cutting policy
"WHERE's THE MONEY COMING FROM?"
Gordons answer is "The future"
Next question "What Future?"
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The future for the tax-payer and his children is looking black (or should that be red ?).
The future is definitely NOT Brown.
Roll on the election !
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Could Denis Healey please have a word in our idiotic leader's ear and tell him to reconsider? We have tried Keynesian stimulus before when facing an economic slowdown on the back of a spike in fuel prices. All this extra government borrowing is likely to do will be to force interest rates and prices up, sending the pound tumbling.
A few months into something like this and they could be wheeling out a new prices and incomes policy.
Denis, if you're there, please pick up the phone.
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Nick,
we are heading for a repeat of the Great Depression, it will not affect the same people, the economic structure has changed fundamentally, and people will not be on the bread line, but even here in Exeter they are now running an evening soup kitchen. Beggars on nearly every street corner, big issue sales, people trying to get you to sign up to a charity.
This is the result, soldiers sold down the river, no help with their mental health problems. This is dire, and it won't get any better with the current crop of politicians. We need a change, a fundamental change, because sure as hell the Americans won't bail us out, they will look after their own, they have their own national interests. The solution is not going to come from outside. Foreigners have their own flags, their own national interests, they have elections which they want to win. Get us into the Euro and be quick about it, no doubt we will when the pound and Euro are at parity.
In the meantime, all those pensioners who retired to mainland Europe are suffering alright now, serves them right for deserting a sinking ship. A ship which they are responsible for holing.
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I think all Tory commenters on here should go and see a doctor. Their comments do nothing to help a serious situation. All the bile against a man who is seriously endeavouring to help Britain our of this global mess. Is it so imperative that Cameron and osbourne take over the reins as what i can tell is that these two are clueless to know what to do. All they do is change policy every day and jump on every bandwagon that's going. God help us all if they ever get elected but i know in my heart the people of Britain will never let this happen.
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Surely the point is that at the same time as borrowing increases, there has to be far more time spent looking for savings on government expenditure. The public sector has expanded at a far faster rate that the rest of the economy over the last ten years, funded it is now clear, on unsound money.
There has to be an acceptance on the part of all political parties that government expenditure will have to be cut. Clearly there will then be great gnashing of teeth about cuts in services, but quite frankly, if the private sector is shrinking, so should the public sector. One means of reducing expenditure, without significant reductions in services would be reducing civil service salaries.
Anybody earning over, say, £25,000 accepts a 5% reduction in salary to a minimum of £25k. GPs, senior MPs and top mandarins on six figure salaries can take a greater hit and at the same time institute wholesale reforms of pensions. Add this to the cancellation of ID cards, NHS data contracts, etc. and before you know it, you've got a significant saving. At the same time, the 'real' economy sees that the public sector is prepared to take its share of the pain.
None of this will avoid the necessity for increased borrowing, but without it, there is very little chance of any political party getting support for a spend now, pay later approach.
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Nice work wellerman.
If only Gordon could admit his faults so readily, instead of blaming everyone else.
On a general note, why is there not more public outcry at the bloated public sector (no pun intended). This is not only grossly expensive now, but has the potential to impact finances for decades to come with all the taxpayer funded, index linked final salary pensions that it provides.
Is DC scared to speak out because under Gordon it's inflated numbers now carry real voting clout?
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@37
I've been to the docs, he says all is fine with me therefore now you need to go to be checked as the fault probably lies with you
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You start your piece with the mention of (rival) press conferences.I think you will find that Browns is a monthly conference,and Camerons is the (rival).
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@41
Your post is like GB's heed
Mostly empty space!
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#37
"All the bile against a man who is seriously endeavouring to help Britain our of this global mess."
Bile? I don't regard him high enough to give him bile. It's his personal mess. What do you think he deserves? A round of applause?
Oh and I liked how he found time while "endeavouring", to slate the beeb and Ross/Brand, but that wouldn't be jumping on he bandwagon would it?
"God help us all if they(Tories) ever get elected but i know in my heart the people of Britain will never let this happen."
If Labour get a fourth term, you are more than welcome to him. My wife and I will be emigrating.
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I think Cameron will be proved to have taken the right position on this in the long-term.
Brown's argument seems desperately close to someone who is prepared to do anything to temporarily prop up the economy in order to give him just enough time to call an election before worrying about the dire consequences of his actions.
I still don't think some people have grasped quite how bad this situation is. When you have one of the highest budget deficits in the world AND one of the highest tax burdens in our history (the exact level is of no consequence) that dynamic is so difficult to get out of. Each year we add more and more to the stock of debt and so more and more has to be spent on debt repayments and less and less on productive things. But when we come to try and pay off some of the outstanding debt by raising taxes all we'll end up doing is stifling employment and growth and incomes: and so the budget deficit persists for longer still.
That is why it is so important that we don't treat the economy as a never ending overdraft like so many labour chancellors have in the past.
We must accept that houses in this country are overvalued and people in this country have taken on too much debt. That has to be reversed. Painful but necessary. Endless borrowing only postpones greater problems for tomorrow.
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#37 wumper
Thanks for your post.
Just two comments:
He created this mess in the first place and the only thing he is seriously endeavouring to save is his rather flabby skin.
Anti-Labour does not imply Tory. However I will be voting for Cameron at the next election, unless my doctor advises me otherwise.
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I can't help thinking form reading your post that Brown is simply just gambling and that he has done too much too wrong to stop the slide the way we all know things are going. He'll call an election next year probably because by 2010 we'll all be unemployed and be wheeling out madame Guillotine calling his name.
No one with a brain in this world should give Brown more than the time of day and directions back to his constituency.
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Thanks David i will now sack all my workforce and then re-employ them. What a nice little earner.
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Re magic 43 I will come and wave you off.
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37 Wumper
Firstly - it isn't just Conservatives giving Brown a kicking.
Secondly - Brown's irresponsibility has been one of the major contributors that has got us into this mess.
Thirdly - Brown's strategy to escape recession, is in many ways, the same policy that have got us into dire straits in the first place.
If only there was a grassy knoll outside 10 Downing Street.......
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#48 :-)
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Wumper
"Cameron and Osborne..... All they do is change policy every day...."
So Wumper, if you want to sound like a purveyor of the facts (rather than Labour Party spin), name me a single business, employment, industrial or economic policy that the Conservatives have proposed, say, during the course of the last six months, and then subsequently dropped.
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Nick,
Aside from political u-turns, when our Prime Minister stands at a press conference and says "I?m always honest with the British public" then uses a fake (and let us be clear, it is fake - see the ONS: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=206) debt number as a justification that "Whatever else we want to argue about, let us be clear that we start from a low base in public debt", where on earth are our leading journalists - some of which are employed at the expense of the license fee payer - to challenge him?
The failure at least ask the questions, let alone to hold this Government to account, is a disgrace.
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re jrperry 51 recently Ossie the oligarch said "the cupboard is bare, therefore tax reductions cannot be made" That policy didn't last long did it?
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Can't wait for Gordon Brown to give me a tax cut. I can take it straight to the bank and pay off some of my fixed rate mortgage.
With GB having crippled savings rates by acting the hard man with the banks I'll need a return on this money!
If I had the option I'd get out of this country before Gordon's chickens come home to roost.
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Gordon Brown is slipping into a very low strategy indeed. It is bad enough that Brown & Blair have "bought" votes through handouts in previous elections, this time Brown should be ashamed of the fact that his government spending policies over the past 10 years have been the major cause of the current financial mess.
Nick . . . next time you speak with Brown/Darling ask them the true UK debt exposure including PFI. I would like to see the UK plc balance sheet as it really is rather than Brown's interpretation of what he has decided the public will be told.
I totally agree with David Cameron. Tax cuts can only be funded from reduced spending in other areas. It is time for some major projects to be cancelled. ID cards would be an excellent start point. Reassess the government contribution to the London Olympics and so on. Like all good households there are times that you have to cut back and UK plc has definitely reached that point.
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Hold on just a minute.
One Party is offering FUNDED tax cuts.
Another is offering UNFUNDED tax cuts.
This is a no-brainer.
Living beyond our means got us into this mess. Yet more UNFUNDED policies (for party political advantage) must not be allowed to be rewarded.
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ref. 7. has got it in one.
Substantially reducing the cost Government by scrapping projects such as IT systems for the NHS,ID cards and closing down the miriade of Quango's who employ highly paid but non added value consultants would be a good start to reduce costs.
Then advise ALL Government departments,including Government itself that their 2009 budgets are going to be slashed by 10% from budget proposed in 2007 for 2009.
The Ministers of State can then get in a huddle with their respective senior servants to find the savings required to fulfil the reduced budget objectives.
There would then be no need to increase borrowing to fund the tax reduction.
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I realise it is current fashion to deride everyone for coming up with ideas and political point scoring is never far away from bipartisan commitments to try and make the changes needed to protect our economy and nation from melt down but are we not forgetting one all important matter?
Confidence
Confidence is what drives behaviour, confidence in the future, confidence in your employer, your market, your government, your suppliers, your partners, your media.
The captains of the universe have been found wanting at best, criminally arrogant at worst with a dose of condescension thrown in for mere mortals for good measure.
People, real people that together process and deliver the macro economic energy and funds that drive our society have simply lost confidence in institutions, the politicians, invisibles are just that and people now crave substances not illusion, hence the trend towards battening down the hatches and clawing your way through this downturn in UKplc fortunes along with the rest of the world.
If we are to fix the future it is all about fixing the underlying issue of confidence, not tweaking round the edges with fiscal stimuli that provide a brief boost as opposed to a lasting change in the fundamental values of our societies approach to fiscal and social responsibility.
Show me a plan that does that and i will show you a plan that last beyonds Christmas
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'Both men have an interest as presenting this as a big political divide. It may in truth turn out to be much less so. '
One of the essential presentation skills is to argue in opposition to others so as to make a strong impact.
Behind the patina of slick words, both men have similar well-hidden motives and goals--a truth is truer than whatever is said to be true by them.
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Quite a gamble indeed Nick, by both leaders in question. However, based on what I've read, I am more inclined to agree with Dave than Gordy! Also, the PM's assertion of "being honest with the British public" is fast turning into a farcical one! He's clinging on to power with hit n' trial-like muddled ideas. Really disappointed with the way the country's being run at the moment.
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Gordo keeps banging on about how low our national debt is at 37.7% compared to many other Countries. What he keeps hidden of course are all the off-balance sheet debts that the tax payer is actually committed to repaying.
PFI Debt: £100 Billion
Public Sector Pensions: £1,025 Billion
Northern Rock: £10 Billion
Plus of course the latest round of bank bail-outs and guarantees.
Now, my math isn't so great, but I reckon all this adds up to nearer 100% than 37.7% of GDP.
Now, he wants to borrow even more for an election bribe. This man either has no shame or no sense. Either way he needs to be removed.
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Wumper - your post 53.
You are confusing an unfunded tax cut like the kind of thing we are told Mr Brown is about to announce (which we can't afford) with a fully-funded employers' incentive (fully funded, because what the government pays out to the employer, it gets back times three in no longer having to pay benefits to the new employee).
I saw your post 47, but let's ignore that - I'm sure you realise iyou were being daft, and anyway Cameron covered that one this morning.
So, have another go. I'm still waiting for policies in the last six months that the Conservatives have proposed and then dropped.
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52 DGlazebrook
Absolutely. I totally agree.
The media are spineless.
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Whumper, 53: rather than resorting to paraphrasing Osborne's speech, why don't you read the extract, http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/sep/29/georgeosborne.toryconference.
"The cupboard is bare. There is no more money. Tax revenues have collapsed. Unemployment costs are rising. Borrowing is out of control. Labour has done it again.
It's no good talking about the big up-front tax giveaways we might like to make, or the big spending increases it might be nice to have. Because I repeat: there is no more money."
Its quite clear that Osborne isn't saying "there will be no tax cuts" but rather that there is no money for unfunded tax cuts.
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Here's something to consider. In the run up to the 1992 GE, Norman Lamont borrowed billions to fund a temporary cut in VAT so as to offset Poll Tax bills. For this he was castigated by Labour, including it's Trade and Industry spokeman Gordon Brown. The Tories defied the odds and narrowly won the GE, then the bills for Lamont's splurge came in and they had to impose a range of tax hikes, including putting VAT on fuel. Mike Smithson of politicalbetting.com will tell you that the polls of that period showed that the Tories had bounced back after Black Wednesday and by early 1993 they were level pegging with Labour until the 1993 budget, after which their poll ratings went off a cliff and never recovered. Contrary to common belief, Black Wednesday didn't sink the Tories, it was when they had to cover the cost of their pre-election splurge. Is history about to repeat itself?
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re: 57, gavin_humph
Couldn't agree more. All of Nu-Lab's rotten schemes are untrustworthy, ineffective, staggeringly expensive and terrible value for money, just like their creators.
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Nick,
Someone - maybe even you- have got to take the PM to task over his problem with honesty.
Here are 4 lies you can tackle in one big "honesty interview":
1. Your own question today was dodged - why can't he be honest with the public about taxes needing to rise with his policies?
2. "I did not say and end to boom and bust"
3. "We are in a unique position to weather the recession"
4. UK debt is only X% of GDP.
If you tackle all the lies together - he may slip up and tell the truth about one of them.
That in itself would be a good start.
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re jrperry 62 Do you think we are all naive? I have already spoken to a local employer who has stated that if he waits just a short time then he would be able to sack a quarter of his small staff (all manual workers)and employ replacements with a different job description. I think you doth protest too much, it surely cannot be down to the latest opinion poll can it?
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I'm afraid for Gordon the game is up.
To quote Lord Scrumptious in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang:
"Had your chance. Muffed it!"
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Brown sulked, manoeuvred and plotted until he got into No 10. He is not about to sign his own eviction order by telling the truth. His craving for power is to great.
The only option would appear to be concerted action by the public such as civil disobedience to get rid of this man.
Mugabe is almost acting like a gentleman compared with this Scottish buffoon.
Go Brown. Go now. Go quickly.
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Nasty little rant from ADB123 at #70. We do pay a price for free speech and for allowing these people airtime don't we?
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David Cameron's proposal to reduce tax on taking on new employees is probably no more "funded" than Gordon Brown's fiscal stimulus.
The tax cut is funded when employers take on people only because there is a tax cut. Which is unlikely in most cases.
This being the case, the more effective proposal is the one that generates the biggest change in behaviour - ie getting people to spend more.
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jonathan crook, 67. This is absolutely required and is the only way to hold GB to account. But how to bring it about, save an election? If we have to wait until 2010, 'we're all doomed' as Pte Fraser might say....
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Nick,
How these tax cuts are funded IS exactly the difference.
Brown is habitually incapable of cutting government spending, that would impact his core vote.
Cameron wants to limit further exposure to the taxpayer of more borrowing, borrowing that the taxpayer will have to pay for one day. It is completely sensible to reduce taxation on jobs to avoid the double whammy of losing income tax revenue and paying out dole money.
Brown will pursue unfunded tax cuts because he doesn't care how the Conservatives will pay for it if they win the next election.
Neither will he show any compunction in hiking taxes if Labour wins that election. A leopard doesn't change his spots.
Even his first tax 'cut' was anything but, it was a raid on those who could least afford to pay.
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So we're going form the 'age of irresponsibility' to the 'age of unfunded fiscal irresponsibility'.
Nice one.
Notice the tactic of the usal newlabour apologists to stay away and watch what the reaction is to Gordon Brown's 'non policy' so the spin doctors can then give Alistair Darling his 'narrative' when he present s the pre-budget report?
It's all part of a grand newlabour spinning plan. Completely transparent now we know their tactics. Bit useless whent he economy is imploding by the day.
Call an election.
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Nick
"At this morning's Downing Street news conference I asked the prime minister whether he'd be honest with the electorate and admit that taxes would have to go up after the recession. He replied that now wasn't the time to make predictions for several years ahead. "
The short answer was NO. Dishonest so and so.
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Mike Smithson of politicalbetting.com will tell you that the polls of that period showed that the Tories had bounced back after Black Wednesday and by early 1993 they were level pegging with Labour until the 1993 budget, after which their poll ratings went off a cliff and never recovered.
See. That's my recollection. All we ever hear about was that the Tories were slung out for 'sleaze'. But they weren't. They were slung out for breaking their promises on tax.
They promised faithfully prior to the 1992 election that there would be no tax rises. They felt safe promising this because they were widely expected to be drummed out of office. Only a real incompetent could possibly have lost to John Major. Luckily Labour has a long and proud history of incompetence and they had just the man for the job. Neil Kinnock.
On the back of their shock victory they then found they had to raise taxes to balance the budget. And you're right. It was this about face that nailed them.
That's why Gordon Brown used every trick in the book in 2001 when the Tories had got wind of his NI increases prior to the General Election. He was repeatedly asked on talk-shows by the likes of Paxman and any other time he inadvertently strayed near a journalist if he had any plans to increase NI.
And it is his disingenuous response that alerted me of his corrupt black soul. His response was of the ilk 'I won't answer that question because otherwise we'll be here all day/night answering questions about any of the other 300 taxes that are constantly under review'
And about a week after the election victory what did we get? An increase in NI.
So, Gordon didn't technically lie. He just didn't tell the truth. Nor could he be made to tell the truth. There is/was always some excuse why he couldn't answer the question with a straight 'yes' or 'no'. Or he simply talks through or past the question.
'Gordon Brown, are you not concerned about the runaway price of house?'
'I am pleased that as a result of the prudent fiscal policies I have pursued that more people are confident in the long-term prosperity of the country to commit to buying their own home'
'Huh?'
'Sorry, times up - next question...'
A technique he continues to use to this day. So when he quotes the ONS statistics it will be a number that he has taken great care to plant at the ONS in the first place. A number less than 40%. It'll be a number that excludes all kind of things and, on examination or questioning, the ONS might disclose exactly what has been excluded to arrive at the fantasy figure but Gordon Brown will skate over that and announce 'According to the ONS blah blah...'
So, on one level he's strictly telling the truth. But only after having taken great pains to rig the parameters.
Same with the rigged unemployment figures. Same with the rigged inflation numbers. Same with the rigged GDP figures. The rigged NHS statistics. All rigged. Same with the '45 minutes' claim in fact.
Sure, there is a document alluding to 45 minutes that was produced by the cloak and dagger guys. But only after they'd been told to go and produce a document that would 'big up' the case for war. No, not good enough. Rewrite it. That's better...
'Look, our secret service tells us that the Iraqi's are ready to deploy WMD in 45 minutes....'
Similarly the so-called Hutton enquiry. Convene an enquiry with such restricted frame of reference that it was a waste of time from the start.
It's how this government operates. It decides it wants to do something. It commissions a 'survey' or 'report' taking care to pack it with people who can be relied upon to produce the 'right' answer. Then it produces this 'independent' report as justification for what they were planning to do in the first place.
As for increasing taxes to balance the books in the unlikely event of a Labour resurgence and general election victory. I doubt that very much. They've shown no aptitude for balancing the books for the past eight years and clearly they've no intention of balancing them for the next 18 months.
If, by some unprecedented wave of postal ballots, they get re-elected then this is the end game. It will be the end of the currency. They will simply print money indefinitely.
Works for Robert Mugabe.
Winston Smith would be proud.
George Orwell really was a genius wasn't he?
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Wumper post 68
I think you must be getting very confused. Your "local employer" who you have just "spoken to" is going to have to wait not just a "short time" but until after the next GE before he can try his little trick with attempting to fiddle an employment incentive. Which would fail anyway, I think. Can you really imagine that such a scheme would be implemented without some kind of safeguard against pirates?
Strange remark about the latest opinion poll - can you explain?
Anyway, where's your list of Conservative U-turns. You seemed to be say they shouldn't be taken seriously, because going back on policy is all they do, so you must have a long list of them.
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# 71
It worked for Labour with the Poll Tax riots against the Thatcher government, didn't it?
Or was that acceptable because it was against the Tories?
What about the Notting Hill race riots? Did they not achieve what the minorities wanted?
Sometimes, when the Government refuses to listen to the public, it takes a good kick to make them listen. Sadly, that seems to be the case with control freak Brown and his cronies.
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Presumably Andrew Neil on today's Daily Politics was pressed for time which was why he was unable to allow Osborne to complete his plausible responses. Perhaps El Gordo can be tomorrows guest and be subject to a similar brusque manner whilst being compelled to explain his economy with the truth. The only economics Brown understands.
Conversely, Tony McNulty's comments were revealing, wriggling like a worm on a hook regarding future debt repayment followed by his completely transparent attempt at defending Gordon Brown's misleading utterances. I would have said bare faced lying but don't have faith in the moderators.
Perhaps Nick Robinson at some point reasonably soon can adopt a similar technique to get at the truth.
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79 Youngerap
The media don't seem to want to challenge Brown's lies.
The opposition parties don't seem to be able to "pin the tail" on the donkey (even though that must be the easiest thing to do in the world - seeing as Gordon's finger prints are all over the economic crash)
Maybe - it is time for the people take to the streets......
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#80 Ilicipolero
Maybe the BBC's new strategy against the Tories is to talk over them so that they can't elucidate any policies and then to say 'we haven't heard any policies from the Tories'. I have seen a bit of this already and we still have probably over a year to the general election.
The strategy against Michael Howard in the run up to the last general election was almost as sneaky. That is, bombard him with question after question on immigration, the final question being 'why is your campaign so negative and so obsessed with immigration?'. Then give some raving lefty the last word just to remind the population how horrible the thought of a sensible immigration policy would be.
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#81.
What worries me is precisely that... the rioting and civil disorder at the time of the early 80s recession was awful.
This recession hasn't even started yet and things are "lowest since records began" already.
The portents aren't good.
This might be a crisis that started in the US but it's Brown as Chancellor and PM over the last decade that have made the effects here all the more worse.
The media are utterly failing to hold this man to account. He's having a 'good crisis' instead.
Great, tell that to the 2,200 Virgin Media staff that are going to lose their jobs.
Tinkering with VED and winter fuel payments mean nothing and will do nothing to help get us out of recession just deeper in more debt.
Do what Vodafone did today... cut out the 'non-value', the £60bn on quangos, the £10bn on pointless IT (ID Cards).
And give us our money back.
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Like I've been saying for some time now: there's going to be one almighty reckoning for this mess.
The politicians are panicking. Meantime, they're throwing up smoke screens to cover the fact that they're clueless about how to dig us out of the hole into which they're still furiously digging us (and which they conveniently marked out by unleashing the debt boom).
It takes just one common-sense-fuelled peep at what's going on here to realise that our glorious political leaders are now steering us into the biggest financial black-hole in the known universe. Gordon Brown is, therefore, in his element.
The politicians are being tossed around by events. They're taking short-term actions which they dress up as clever, considered policy decisions. They haven't the faintest idea how we'll ever recover from the self-inflicted disaster now being engineered before our very eyes.
We'll start paying the economic and social price for all this in the next 12 - 24 months. Our children will pay the price for a generation, mark my words. The end of cheap energy will be the next steam train to smash into our economic and social systems - and our politicians haven't even begun to think about the impact of that.
I hope this marks the beginning of the end of our current political class and their outdated systems and deceitful relationship with us ordinary citizens.
Let's see what Barack Obama can do for this messed up world, shall we? Meantime, Brown, Cameron, Clegg and their ilk are history - and patently useless to boot.
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Just a few documented occassions when Gordo said "no more boom and bust"
"Mr Deputy Speaker we will not return to boom and bust." (Budget speech 2001)
"No longer the boom-bust economy," he said on 27 September 2004.
"In any other decade, a house price bubble would have pushed Britain from boom to bust," he claimed a year later on 26 September 2005.
"No return to boom and bust." (Budget speech 2006)
"And we will never return to the old boom and bust." (Budget speech 2007)
No mention of "Tory" in any of 'em...
When will you BBC journos pull him on this?
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The opposition parties don't seem to be able to "pin the tail" on the donkey
The pin was hovering right over his big fat backside a few weeks ago. He'd just got back from bailing out the banks and announcing a co-ordinated interest rate cut with the yanks and the EBC.
All we were waiting for was the BBC to report the facts. Pin the tail on him.
Ie Gordon Brown has been forced to bail out the UK banks. This marks a new nadir of incompetence for the Labour government as the fiscal and regulatory policies it has pursued for the past decade are revealed to be fatally flawed. There is growing calls within the Labour party for a change of leadership and a challenge is expected within days.
What we got from the independent BBC was 'Failure of Thatcherism'.
How's that for 'media narrative'?
If we'd got wind of Pravda presenting news like that in the old USSR we'd have fallen off our chairs laughing at how the poor dumb saps were being kept in the dark and fed horse manure. But it happens over here and nobody bats an eyelid. Indeed it is repeated in the print media the following day.
Mandelson is definitely back. He must have tapped the vast Hoover-like resources of the secret services and showed the editors of newspapers and journalists at the BBC all the video tapes they wouldn't want to be shown to their wives. It is the only conceivable explanation. That or outright death threats.
How could the failure of a decade of this Labour governments regulation and fiscal policy be reported as a failure of Thatcherism? What the hell is going on?
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#76 skynine
Interesting that.
Whenever David Cameron says he is unable to give promises on tax changes until his party has a chance to examine the books, Gordon Brown always says the Conservatives have no policies!
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I listened to Tony McNulty's comments. He seemed straighforward and on the ball.
Exactly what the pre-budget report will say is a matter of speculation and, I'm sure, it's still being worked on. 'Fiscal stimulus' paid for by future growth can be written off as just another debt mountain but by giving a boost now the very worst recession can be avoided and recovery brought forward.
Surveys are showing that people have got over the initial shock of the finance crisis and some calm is returning. By getting peoples attention and diverting it into developing business vision and liquidity the chances of growing the economy are higher. Simply, leadership on this issue is a matter of finance and psychology.
Huge potential still exists for new technologies and markets. By stimulating a more positive, flexible, and patient approach this potential can be developed in businesses and communities. But, that can't come from leadership alone. That requires people to seize the opportunity and it helps if you're having fun.
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economic theory suggests that an expansionary fiscal policy (eg a tax cut) that coinsides with an expansionary monetary policy (drop in interest rates) as we have already had, can stimulate growth without pushing up inflation.
This was the obvious decision to make when facing a recession, but it will be interesting to see if macroeconomic policy theory will apply pin practice for the uk economy in the next year or so.
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How dare Mr McNulty suggest it is a moot point that they don't know how they are going to pay for these massive borrowings! Of course it is going to come from higher taxation. Our main source of income is the banking sector, and currently that is on its knees. It won't be allowed to take the risks and therefore make the profits it was making in previous years, so receipts will be down. We are therefore heading towards a recession the likes of which we have not seen for many generations.
Responsible government in difficult times should be scrapping expensive big ticket projects such as ID cards. These are not going to employ many and should be put to one side for the time being. That should be the top of the list of things to scrap by the tories - well it is but they should be harping on about it.
Finally all credibility Brown had with the economy has gone. He is claiming he has made things better but he has just written a cheque with no view of how things are going to be resolved. That is the reality
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Wumper
The problem with you is that like all Labour supporters you are failing to see the point. Your comments seem to be a straight lift from Tony McNulty`s performance on the Politics Show anyway. Gordon Brown is not the hero he is the villain. He is the one who was crowing about low mortgage rates etc when credit was cheap and boasting that there were more people under Labour who now owned their homes. Little wonder - they were borrowing beyond thier means in the expectation that their houses would rise above the value of their mortgages so if things went belly up they they could sell and pay off their debts with no problems at all. Nothing in this life is a certainy and any bozzo - but apparently not this wonderful ex labour chancellor - could not see that this country was spending beyond its means and ibcurring debt on an epic scale and when the day of reckoning came we would be found to be penniless. Now the daft hapeth (GB) wants to borrow more so that people can continue living the high life. We are in debt up to our eye balls and the time has come for it to be paid back - does GB not get that? His policy of reducing tax/ increasing tax credits to the poorest families in the UK - as they are the ones who will spend any increase and not put it aside in savings - is bonkers. What products are they going to buy which will get this country moving again? Are they going to stimulate the housing market? No. Are they going to get car manufacturing going again by buying new cars? No. Are they going to buy quality products to get our High Streets going again? No. Are the middle classes going to be the mugs who are going to have to pick up the tab for all of this? Yes. David Cameron`s ideas are the best way forward: but he must really ditch George Osborne who looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights today when intereviewed by Andrew Neil who quite honestly made him look an incompetent twerp. There is no doubt now with Mandy leaking his proposal to keep all the remianing Post Offices open plus tax bribes for the core of labour voters we are heading for an election in early part of 2009.
GB dare not hang on until the whatsit really hits the fan. But a warning shot to David Cameron that his party had better start behaving like an opposition or he will suffer an election defeat - albeit marginally as there are enough people who think Gordon can do no wrong with the economy and to be quite honest DC has been sitting there quitely hoping GB will fall flat on his face. Unfortunately with Mandy and Alistair back in the driving seat this probably wont happen. Even if it does his spin machine will ensure it won`t seem as he has. DC needs to put in some good performances asap and put some clear choices to the electorate as to what it will meanif they voted Labour or Conservative. Time I think is runnnig out and GB will cut and run for a short election which will be at his dictation not DCs.
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Whilst I'm not convinced that Gordon Brown's unfunded tax cuts are the way forward, David Cameron, once again, proves that he and George Osborne haven't got an answer.
Firstly, the Tories claim that all of their tax cuts are funded..... what rubbish!
Secondly, if they're so keen on Barack Obama perhaps they'd realise that 'trickle-down' economic policies are no longer in vogue. It's time that the very rich pay their fair share in tax so that everyone else can stop paying it for them.
I STILL THINK THE NEWCONS ARE FAKES.
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BBC Pledge watch.
The BBC has a new Internet article examining recent political pledges.
Last week it was" Lap-Tops", this week "Vicars".
Maybe next week it will be "Boom and Bust".
Blair Vicar pledge
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Can you please stop peddling the myth that the bottom part of the economic cycle is a "unique time".
The prevailing logic seems to be that Gordon Brown ended the economic cycle, or as he liked to call it "boom and bust", and that therefore the current situation is in someway different from the previous downturns in the economy. It isn't.
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#88
Huge potential still exists for new technologies and markets.
Even if that were true, which I doubt, unfortunately we no longer have a manufacturing base to take advantage of these wonderful opportunities. You sound like Hitler pushing non-existent armies around the table a week before the Russians enter Berlin.
This idea that everything will be alright if we just think positively and give wise Gordon another twelve years to sort it out is presumably a result of having nothing better to say. In that case, might I suggest it would be better to say nothing.
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Nick,
so we can take it then that the recession will last for several years then can we?
I hope that others pick-up on Gordon Brown detaching his brain from his lips.
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Nick,
the reason why Brown did nothing about inflated Cuty salaries was because he was the beneficary through the tax system. Imagine being given a million poundbonus how much of the actually went to the Treasury through taxes. He was desperate then and he is desperate now.
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81 - jonathan_cook
Tory toffs take to the streets.
I can't wait, hilarious!
TALLY HO!
Bill McFadden
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#37
Surely the point is that we have to say something because the policy of the labour group at the moment seems to be that you said nothing at the time. Therefore if you said nothing then you must agree with me. Well some of us did say things years ago but were not listened to.
I now know how Churchill must have felt in his wilderness years. Nobody listens, well they are now, only they don't like to hear the message.
Of course we will have to pay for this through our taxes, only Gordon will be long gone, don't know where, don't really care, only he must go and go soon before the damage is irreparable.
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#28 (Basil Brush) - scorched earth indeed, capping off a long list of destructive policies.
Reminds me of Jimmy Cagney at the end of White Heat - "Made it Ma ! Top of the world !" - as the balloon goes up
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The Tory Proposals
Can't se how this will stimulate the economy.
The IFS described the assumtion that 1 in 3 of those employed in the Cameron plan would be new employees as "optimistic"
But it's say its right. That means that 2 in three are replacing natural wastage employees who would have een employed anyway! What's the point in that. Where is the "stimulus" other than a subsidy to Macdonalds and similar who have a high natural staff turnover. Now their payroll bill is now being subsidised by thr taxpayer!
Please can I have a Tory Apologist to explain why this is a good idea? How about the Boy Wonder?
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93# Pledge watch
How about the Fuel Tax Equaliser. Is that still a pledge? Would like to know as its current rather than history.
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98 BillMcJockstrap
Toffs!!! Good work!!!!!!!!!!
You must be one of the brighter sparks hammering away with your forehead mounted keyboard prodders....
P.S. Any views on Brown's lies about the economy?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
103
Jonathan-cook,
is that an attempt at humour?
dear, oh dear, oh dear.
Bill McFadden
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104
Eaton - you are right.
Tory party central office employees posing as real people.
Good job no one takes any of this blogosphere stuff seriously.
Bill
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Eatonrifle 101
Not accepting the numbers you used. the notion that one sentence from the IFS is the last word on the subject, or the accusation that by commenting positively on the proposal, I have to be a Tory Apologist. Anyway, here goes.
The big idea is that the amount that goes to the company is less than the saving on unemployment benefit, jobseekers' allowance or whatever. Therefore if you have a "hit", i.e. a genuinely unemployed person gets a job, then the resulting profit potentially covers the cost of one, maybe more than one, "miss".
That said, shoot me down if I am wrong, but I thought the unemployed person being given a job had to have been unemployed for some time before the package kicked in. Also, I thought only small and medium sized enterprises qualified, which rather cuts out exploitation of the benefit by a big company.
OK?
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Nick writes :
"At this morning's Downing Street news conference I asked the prime minister whether he'd be honest with the electorate and admit that taxes would have to go up after the recession. He replied that now wasn't the time to make predictions for several years ahead."
Mr.Brown gives Nick a response which must be a classic from the politicians toolkit of stock non-answers to awkward questions.
My imaginary Prime Minister would give a rather different answer :
"It is incumbent upon me to be totally honest with the people at all times.
Taxes are not expected to go up after the recession because we are adopting a flat rate tax system, which is inherently more effficient than the current system.
As a consequence of this decision, we will be completely scrapping the NI employer and employee tax because its purpose has become corrupted over time.
The taxpayer expects full value for money and that is precisely what we intend to deliver.
I expect that this revised and drastically simplified tax system will not only be a system that people can actually understand but will also ultimately mean lower tax rates, whilst still delivering the levels of Government services that the people need.
Does that fully answer you question?"
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98:
Are you from the back end of Glasgow by any chance?
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How frustrating is it, Nick, to receive non answers to questions from an overbearing oaf who is supposed to understand our pain, and to feel the pressures we are all experiencing?
You know we deserve better. You know we deserve an answer. You know that Brown is not the person to say what is happening because that the job of THE CHANCELLOR.
You know, the job he had before, and where he took the decisions hat have got us here.
He's abandoned prudence.
He doesn't care about any kind of fiscal rules.
He doesn't care about anybody else's opinion, otherwise you'd get some detailed answers.
He doesn't care that whatever he actually says, and tries to convey that he means, is open to misconstruction, especially when the Autumn Financial Statement is being prepared and about to be published. He'd hide behind that t avoid giving details, but attempt to bask in the reflected glory of gratifying headlines, however inccurate they may be.
He is a man withjout principle, without a redeeming feature, and with a discredited reputation.
Get on his case, for goodness' sake. He can't be allowed to be so cavalier about what where supposed to be "golden" rules that the fiscally prudent should follow.
And for everybody's sake, be sure to challenge hime in a few months time when the bills come due, and he starts monkeying around with taxes again. Actually talking about mankeys - which is the organ grinder and which the monkey? Brown or Darkling?
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Gordon is looking more and more like Mugabe every week. Willing to pay any cost to cling onto power, even the bankruptcy of his country's economy.
How he continues to get away with lies, spin, and evasive non-answers is beyond me.
Why aren't the media taking him to task?
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Censura @71 wrote:
"Nasty little rant from ADB123 at #70. We do pay a price for free speech and for allowing these people airtime don't we?"
Snide little comment.
Cast out the beam.....
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The Tory Toff argument died a terrible death in Nantwich and Crewe in case it missed your attention. Many of the voters who switched away from Tony Blair could hardly be described in these terms. If you haven't got anything useful to say I suggest you inhabit the CBBC forum.
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Cutting costs is easy. Any fool can do it. What's hard is identifying opportunities and building solutions. I tend to think this issue isn't about money but attitude.
Two British PLC's just announced cost-cutting and job cuts. But, I see a huge lack of imagination in their product development, and their loyalty to employees is just derisory. People can't see beyond their own noses which is another reason why Gordon Brown's internationally coordinated approach is so useful. It stops one country gaming the system and creating a rush deeper into depression.
I've floated the idea of companies being set quotas to hire people out of work. There could be some fudging on tax to grease the wheel but it would automatically unlock the job market and give people a genuine choice in what they do and who they work for. Put it this way, I think, it's better than the dutch auction and mass unemployment policies that have been followed in the past.
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I know this is completely off-topic, but I hope it will be allowed. I was shocked and deeply unhappy at the death of a seventeen-month-old baby boy in Haringey, London. This was the same place where poor little Victoria Clumbie died seven years ago. Despite promises that "lessons would be learned" they obviously were not.
I appeal to all the articulate, intelligent bloggers, who all have a social conscience, no matter to what spectrum of the political field they belong, to write to their MPs , demanding urgent action to make sure these terrible things no longer continue under the noses of social services' workers.
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Yours truly made the comparison between the Tory party's campaign attitude and Mugabe. I did it first and better in this blog. You're just a copycat. Really, guys. Come up with something original.
It's not a dead argument. Mostly, it's just a question of positioning and marketing. The Tories may have sanitised their brand on the outside but they still have deep and long-term issues.
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Brown in his ivory tower
Grows greedier with every hour;
He's taxed us to death
(And he's just like Macbeth
In his ruthless pursuit of power).
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Regarding Brown appearing like Mugabe, I don't think so. Maybe he is trying to govern the country? If you don't like it, I suggest you go to Zimbabwe for a few months, then come home and see what the difference is.
I agree with the comments about the BBC and Michael Howard - as a Tory activist last time round - but think that Cameron has had the opposite problem - too little scrutiny of his non-policies. He is getting more of that now that the polls are going down for them - like it or not, the Brown bounce exists - and neither he nor his blogger friends like it because it presupposes that politics is dynamic and back-and-forth and that people change their minds.
I will vote Tory, incidentally, just hopefully not for Cameron. I am certainly not campaigning hard for him, or possibly at all. This policy was, to quote someone else, "bovine biological matter" - good in itself but not worth the fuss the Tories were making on Sunday and Monday about huge new tax cuts.
Sorry, Cameron apologists, but just because Brown is lousy doesn't mean that Dave is much better.
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briangare 91 What a negative person you are. you would think Gordon Brown was responsible for every ill in the world. You really should be worried that the two tweedles are going to lose. By the way i don't support Labour i am a floating voter that is fed up with quality of the opposition. This country can only be strong if the Tories/Lib Dems are credible, which they patently are not.
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#115 Phoenixarisenq
Yes, it deserves to be brought to the attention of all right thinking citizens.
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Also slightly off topic, but deserves to be brought to the fore again.
For yet another year the auditors are refusing to sign off on the EU accounts.
Does this matter, you mihgt ask. You betcha. For one thing we are always told by those who believe they know better that its either not true, or doesn't matter, or it has been addressed and won't recur.
We can see, again, that all previous assurances are wortzh as much as Browns reputation as a fiscally correct chancellor.
Don't forget, we pay the bills for all this, and it STILL ISN'T FIXED.
And, would you believe it, but the same people who keep lying to us about the state of European finances are the same ones who keep assuring us that this country is fine. Old windbag himself was supposed to be sorting this out, and now sits in the upper house. Good old Petie Wetie might give some kind of answer, but on balance I'd tend to discount it.
Ask yourself, ask your MEP, better yet ask El Gordo if we might not be abel to find a better use for the money we currently pay into a lying, morally bankrupt, and totally inefficient organisation that we'd be better off leaving. After all, surely its better than providing an unjustified and totally unfunded tax cut.
Why not put it to the people? I'm sure they'd love a chance to cast a vote on the matter.
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I see that the serene zen afficionado has become less serene again.
Seems he's more grasshopper than master.
I don't think a master would lower himself to rebuke somebody for copying him. After all, isn't that what's supposed to happen?
Try nurturing instead of decrying, and stop being boastful. After all your claims are just that - your claims. Its for other people to decide if soemthing is better, or am I missing the point of zen?
Please enlighten me.
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Nick,
Has Gordon Brown always ignored the specific questions asked of him?
At today's conference he just gave any old answer that wasn't in the slightest related to reporters questions (especially yours!) and proceeded into a monotomous pre-prepared text about the financial problems being global and not his fault at all!
Every question that was asked was met by a totally different answer from Brown. Come on Nick, don't let him get away with it. Next time - keep hassling him to be specific with his answers - and not to move on to another reporter.
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Oh good, I'm monopolizing the moideration queue.
Now, either my inbox will bedome full of rejected posts, or there might be some stimulating debate.
Oh, what am I saying? Th usual blowhards will be here spouting some nonsense about how effective a politician the son of the manshe ish.
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So what do you think, has El Gordo become Hugh Jeers as he gets older?
Could he get the part as Noddy's best mate?
Can he hear me, d'yer think?
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#119 wumper
before berating somebody else for being negative, review your own position. You are basing your own voting decision on negativity, not positivity.
You are entitled to vote however you choose, but please, for everybody elses sake, vote for somehing you believe is right, not because it is less worse.
And when your taxes go up, and your personal financial position worsens, reflect on what might have been.
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#113 sicilian
I think we haven't seen the last of the Tory Toff angle - it's still a fair question to ask of the Conservative party, especially in straightened times.
It'll have be more subtle than painting them as top hat wearing upper-class twits to work though, as that obviously didn't work for them (though Boris's administration in London will provide a rich seam to mine in the run-up to the next election).
More along the lines of they don't understand how most people live, recession as "no new Porsche this year as my bonus was only 100,000 pounds", that kind of thing.
Labour will point to the priorities that the Conservatives have identified for 1 billion worth of tax cuts targeted at those inheriting between 612,000 and 2 million pounds (e.g. every estate worth more than 2 million pays half a million pounds less in tax), or to spend more money reducing stamp duty on shares to revive the stock market. They will emphasise their focus on social mobility and the need for Government intervention to try and level the playing field and equalise opportunities towards rich and poor. They will perhaps try to tap into a 'bash the rich' sentiment likely to occur in recession to propose raising tax on the highest earners, which will raise a real dilemma for Cameron.
The 'Tory Toff' angle will undoubtedly be a big weapon in Labour's armoury, and they will try and demonstrate that the Conservatives only want to gain power to make their upper class brethren better off
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#121
You are absolutely right Herb.
Let's have an argument about Europe, after all, as Hugh Jeers keeps telling us, the situation now is not what it was.
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#122 Herb
Who you talking about? His big serenity hartwinge?
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#123 Lord Mandy
Spot on my friend. Don't be fobbed off by these politicians. Accept their answer, cherish it for a few seconds, then discard it sensibly, and ask the question again.
Keep asking until they let slip the real answer.
After all, real answers are out there somewhere. We just don't have the politicians to give us them.
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Cutting costs is easy.
But politically 'tough'. A 'tough' choice you might say. The kind of 'tough choice' he assures us he's not afraid to make. Yeah, right Pinnochio.
Any fool can do it.
You would think wouldn't you? But clearly there is one old fool who can't cut costs. He simply accrues more costs. He's like a great big ball of velcro when it comes to costs. All them fluffy costs just stick to him like glue.
People can't see beyond their own noses which is another reason why Gordon Brown's internationally coordinated approach is so useful.
Would that be the internationally co-ordinated approach that saw us cut interest rates when Greenspan cut interest rates in 2001? That saw us flooding our economy with borrowed money when Bush flooded his economy with borrowed money in 2001. Yeah. That worked out well for everybody didn't it.
Still, at least Gordon now gets to claim it's an international financial crisis. The Europeans, Japanese and Canadians don't seem to have quite the 'International Financial Crisis' we're having. Couldn't be because they didn't run massive deficits in the good times like us and the yanks could it?
Indeed we seem to be uniquely placed to have a bigger, better 'International Financial Crisis' than any major economy. Nice fiscal positioning there Gordon. We're like the surfer who gets it all wrong and ends up standing on a reef as a tsunami breaks on top of him. That's our economy that is.
If Gordon Brown is looking for an international consensus it is simply because, as usual, he hasn't the first clue how to run an economy and so he's going to hitch his cart to the Americans so at least if it all goes pear-shaped he can point to somebody else and say 'It wanae me! They were doing it too. It's all the yanks fault!!!'.
Anyway, for sure he won't be making any tough choices. The easy thing to do is just print money. That's what he's been doing since 2001 and I confidently predict that's what he'll be doing when the electorate finally give him his well-earned P45. Unless he suspends elections or otherwise rigs the constitution.
He's fit for anything in that arena.
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I asked the prime minister whether he'd be honest with the electorate and admit that taxes would have to go up after the recession. He replied that now wasn't the time to make predictions for several years ahead.
So, a recession lasting several years it is then. And that's even with annual deficits of 8 - 10%. Wow. Uniquely placed to weather the 'global financial crisis' or what?
Why do you dignify these conferences with your presence? Surely the thing to do is to get together with the other media and simply not show up. Leave Gordon Brown standing alone in front of a microphone in an empty room. After all, what's the point of going? He just treats you all with contempt.
You ask a question and he gives you some line of moonshine that is utterly irrelevant and not even tangentially related to the question. Fine. Treat him with the same contempt.
Don't show up. Make that the story.
'The Prime Minister was shunned by the worlds press today as journalists finally rebelled against his inability to give an honest answer to any question. Ever.'
But you won't. You'll just keep on taking the BBC shilling and let him continue to make absolute asses of y'all. Even then you could simply refuse to report his moonshine. But you don't. You faithfully reproduce whatever garbage trips off his tongue as if it was fact instead of checking to see how many layers of ambiguity and dishonesty it contains.
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"116. At 7:08pm on 11 Nov 2008, Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
Gordon is looking more and more like Mugabe every week.
Yours truly made the comparison between the Tory party's campaign attitude and Mugabe. I did it first and better in this blog. You're just a copycat. Really, guys. Come up with something original."
Scoring points now are we? There are many posts comparing between Brown and Mugabe and I'm sure neither of us have been the first. Do you think everyone trawls the threads making notes of who said what? Get over yourself.
Brown's failure as chancellor and now as prime minister are obvious for all to see. Anyone who thinks he's handled the economy well only need turn on the news.
He will leave the economy in a far, far worse state than when he found it, and no amount of Zen is going change that fact.
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Its crazy spend your way out with tax cuts. What's next nationalise the banks, convert savings to "loan notes" and hay presto no problem ...cuckoo cuckoo . What a government solution.
Get your cash if you have any and stick it under the bed before this government makes an even worse mess.
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#106
Tory party central office employees posing as real people.
Good job no one takes any of this blogosphere stuff seriously.
Certainly Gordon Brown doesn't. He only pays attention to the little voices in his head. The same little voices that after a decade of power have left the UK with double the national debt of 1997 and a structural deficit of 3% of GDP for the last several years when we were allegedly in a boom.
Now. Flush with his achievements of leaving uniquely vulnerable to any downturn he's going to compound the problem by upping the structural deficit to 8 - 10% of GDP for the foreseeable future. I'd like to think we'll get some decent roads and railways and nuclear power stations out of all this deficit spending but my prediction is that it will all evaporate in state employees pay and unemployment benefit.
He really hasn't a clue.
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124. At 7:52pm on 11 Nov 2008, herb_igone_ex_tuga @124,
Who is this manse and why didn't he have a vasectomy?
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I've been posting here from day one, and compared the Tories campaigning to Mugabe politics before anyone. Plenty of people hijacked it here and went around the net after then. Just a fact.
Cameron's bullish attitude and the grassroots Tory campaign is a fair comparison, given they seem more preoccupied with winning power for the sake of it. But, trying to shoehorn Brown and Labour into that doesn't work because it doesn't fit.
I don't think there's anything wrong with claiming credit or paying attention to the nature of something. This is what I did. That is not something which it is not. This is how things are.
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balhamu @ 127:
Of course The Labour Front Bench know how most people live because they've experienced it themselves haven't they. Have they heck? The toff v working class argument is a non starter as far as the main political parties are concerned. Most of the honorable members have come straight from school to University to politics. They wouldn't recognise an ordinary person if they saw one! Even John Prescott has left his roots far behind although he would like to think he hasn't.
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Why is the BBC reporting the planned job losses at Virgin Media, due to start 4th Quarter next year and to go on till 2012 as being a result of the current economic problems (News at 10 BBC 1 on 11.11.2008) ?
A. Because they like to sensationalise just about every thing that moves....regardless of the facts.
Pathetic.
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These tax measures will evaporate just like interest rates. The banks may have been compelled to pass on the rate reduction but under-handedly have re-jigged their charges raising the costs to borrowers. The tax benefits/borrowing will fade to have minimal effect. The system needs a fundamental overhaul, something no politician is interested in doing preferring self-interest and survival at the trough.
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56. Hobbehod
"One Party is offering FUNDED tax cuts.
Another is offering UNFUNDED tax cuts.
This is a no-brainer.
Living beyond our means got us into this mess. Yet more UNFUNDED policies (for party political advantage) must not be allowed to be rewarded"
I don't think you fully understood what the Prime Minister said.............His tax cuts are NOT unfunded..... They are funded by massive borrowing.....(if he can persuade anyone to lend to him)...You aren't supposed to be clever enough to realise that it will all have to be paid back plus interest!
This will put our grandchildren in hock to the massive debt he is racking up prior to losing the next election....
He won't worry of course.. the utter destruction of the British economy serves his purpose well.....we will all be relying on future Labour Governments for our daily bread...while he can go on to write his memoirs..and try and emulate Bliars £12million lecture circuit income.
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137.
Sorry Charles but you can't copyright a meme.
And besides, who cares?
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104#
Sorry mods for identifying one person with more than one identity who replies to him/herself on here, the boy wonder wouldn't want to be identified as thus.
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86. U9461192
" Gordon Brown has been forced to bail out the UK banks. This marks a new nadir of incompetence for the Labour government as the fiscal and regulatory policies it has pursued for the past decade are revealed to be fatally flawed.....What we got from the independent BBC was 'Failure of Thatcherism'............How could the failure of a decade of this Labour governments regulation and fiscal policy be reported as a failure of Thatcherism?
What the hell is going on?"
Exactly! I think it is worth repeating what you said!
Prior to 1997 Mandelson made it his business to spread tentacles into every corner of the media ...it worked then...and it is still working now.
Mandelson, Campbell & Draper are toxic...I agree with your supposition that they know how and where to apply the pressure.
Remember Lord Goldsmith......he was leant on until altered his view of the legality of the Iraq war... years later we learnt of his infidelity.
Bet this gets moderated ...
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gordon brown's throwaway comment this morning during the press conference, must rank in the top ten of gordon brown quotes:
"I have always been straighforward with the british people!"
beat that blog posters!
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re: 145, denzil69
That's a pork pie so large even Prescott couldn't eat it!
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denzil @ 145:
Here are some other notable Gordon Brown quotes:
"I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the future? the UK should not return to the instability, speculation and negative equity of the 1980s and 1990s" Gordon Brown, Chancellor of the Exchequer, November 1997
- Strangely enough, the UK housing market now faces years of instability and negative equity after the former Chancellor allowed rampant speculation to cause house prices to spiral out of control for 10 yrs.
"I did maths for a year at university. I don't think I was very good at it. And some people would say it shows."Gordon Brown, April 2007
- It certainly does Prime Minister. A surprisingly candid admission from a man who lost $9 billion on his gold sales and then ran our economy for ten years, leaving just before the banking and housing sectors collapsed.
"The failure to support the reform treaty will leave the Czechoslovakian people isolated in Europe." Gordon Brown, March 2008
- Looks like Geography wasn't Gordon Brown's strong point either. Our Prime Minister states his fears in Parliament for Czechoslovakia, a country that ceased to exist 15 years ago.
"There is nothing that you could say to me now that I could ever believe." Gordon Brown to Tony Blair in October 2004, after British Prime Minister appeared to renege on a guarantee not to fight a third term of government.
Prime Minister, trusts us we know how you feel. That's how we feel about you both.
"The Arctic Monkeys really wake you up in the morning." Gordon Brown on the Sheffield band, quoted in 2006 summer issue of New Woman magazine.
Our Prime Minister's reply when asked about his favourite music band. He was then embarrassingly unable to name a single track from their debut album beyond insisting that 'they are very loud'.
"I hope the Spice Girls will come back, although it may be beyond even Bob Geldof to get that to happen."Gordon Brown, June 2005
The Prime Minister reveals his favourite pop group. He also realised that despite being one of the most powerful men in the world, there are just some things you can't have, even if you are friends with Sir Bob.
"To those who feel Westminster is a distant place and politics simply a spectator sport: I will strive to earn your trust" Gordon Brown acceptance speech, May 2007
- Only a few months later, in November 2007, Gordon Brown admitted that the Labour Party had received £600,000 in donations which "could not be justified", were "completely unacceptable" and "were not lawfully declared".
"And to honour those who raised us, I can affirm our commitment to restore the link between the Basic StatePension and earnings." Gordon Brown, Labour Party Annual Conference Speech 2007
- This was after Gordon Brown deliberately ignored warnings to push through pension tax changes in his first Budget in 1997. Officials admit that it cost pension funds up to £75 billion and made millions of pensioners worse off.
"?a small number of hybrid vehicles with virtually no emissions will be exempt altogether through a zero-rated car tax." Gordon Brown promises no road tax on low-polluting cars in his March 2006 Budget
- In a spectacular display of smoke and mirrors, the former Chancellor actually promised a tax cut! Unfortunately officials later admitted to the Times, that not a single car in the UK would qualify for this zero-rated road tax.
"It is about a different type of politics, a more open and honest dialogue." Gordon Brown, June 2007
- Apparently under Gordon Brown, we would have a government with "no spin". We learn now that the Prime Minister is spending more on spin than Tony Blair whilst he was in office. Currently he is paying nearly £2million on personal advisers alone. His team includes Stephen Carter, the former chief executive of Brunswick, one of the world's leading PR companies.
"No more boom and bust." The former Chancellor, Gordon Brown, BBC Election website, 1997
- The Prime Minister's words come back to haunt him now as the economic boom goes bust.
"I believe that by the end of the year the British forces that have been 5,500 can be reduced to 4,500." Gordon Brown re-releases old news of troop cuts he had already promised in Summer 2007 just prior to the election that never was in Oct 2007.
- The Prime Minister learns how easy it is to generate headlines by re-releasing the same story over and over again. On a BBC interview with Jeremy Paxman, the Defence Minister later admitted 500 of these troop cuts had already been promised back in Summer 2007 and the other 500 troops were still in Germany awaiting deployment.
"Factories: not recommended. Early starts and monotonous work." From Gordon Brown's 'How to scrounge off the State' Political Manifesto released during his earlier days as a Labour party activist
- Pearls of wisdom from the Prime Minister, as he advises British workers to avoid working in factories. Could this be why British manufacturing declined so quickly under the former Chancellor?
"If you're caught by police while working any scam, don't worry. You may think you are guilty but legal advice can show otherwise." Surprisingly the thoughts of the young Gordon Brown again in his 'How to scrounge off the State' Political Manifesto
- Reassuring words from our Prime Minister at a time when his own deputy Party Leader, Harriet Harman, had to wear body armour to tour her own South London constituency of Peckham. Even the Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, admitted that she did not feel safe walking home in London at night. This was a government that promised to be "tough on crime".
"I lied. I lied. My credibility will be in shreds. I lied. If this gets out, I'll be destroyed." Gordon Brown quoted directly by Andrew Rawnsley in his book 'Servants of the people'.
- Gordon Brown words after he lied in the national media, by denying knowledge of Bernie Ecclestone's donations on the Today programme, Nov 1997. Interestingly Gordon Brown has never denied this quote. He needn't had worried though, his lack of credibility didn't stop him becoming Prime Minister.
"Counter-information is the key to success." Gordon Brown as young Labour party activist, as quoted in the Daily Mail's expose on his 'How to scrounge off the State' Political Manifesto, 2006
- The words of the same Prime Minister who promised us a spin-free government. Gordon Brown managed to create a whole new industry of spin doctoring and media manipulation with the New Labour project.
"I don't like to use the phrase running commentary, but in this case I am not going to
give a running commentary." Gordon Brown, Daily AM Lobby Briefing 5 March 2008
- Upon hearing that he had been submitted to the Guinness Book of Records by Hertfordshire Conservative Future, as the world's worst Rogue Trader for losing over US $9billion on his disastrous Gold sales. These spectacular losses continue to soar with the rising gold price. It is widely known that Gordon Brown acted against the advice of the Bank of England and City experts when selling this gold. The Treasury however, continues to suppress these documents despite being asked to release them during Parliamentary questioning by Peter Lilley, MP, in March 2008.
"Girls are advised to work as go-go girls." It seems as if Gordon Brown and Peter Stringfellow share much more than the same taste in fashion. As bizarre as it seems, our Prime Minister believes that the modern woman's place should actually be in Spearmint Rhino and not the boardroom. Any comment, Prime Minister?
* The Young Britons' Foundation is a non-partisan, not-for-profit educational, research and training organization that promotes conservatism in schools, colleges and universities. YBF identifies, recruits, trains and places philosophically sound conservative activists in politics, academia and the media.
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105: Bill McFuddle ........................
I thought it was a darned sight funnier than your effort!
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#37 wumper
Is it so imperative that Cameron and osbourne take over the reins as what i can tell is that these two are clueless to know what to do. All they do is change policy every day and jump on every bandwagon that's going.
In case you didn't notice, Gordon and his cronies have changed policies and jumped on every bandwagon going. They are so desperate to stop the recession which they were instrumental in creating, because they were clueless and didn't make any provisions fo the country when it all kicked off in the USA. We certainly couldn't do any worse under Cameron and Osbourne.
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#127.
If that is true... please, please, please use the Tory Toff angle again.
I'll let you into a little secret.
It is ok for people to aspire. That's people from all backgrounds and walks of life, it's ok to better yourself.
Why does Labour only pay lip-service to it?
Because people that aspire and achieve, don't vote Labour.
I know, it's shocking but it's true, aspiration and hope for a better future is a perfectly normal thing to wish for.
Aspiration or as it known politically as 'social mobility' is an ideal that has many benefits to a nation, economically and socially.
Labour promised to boost 'social mobility' but it's policies have failed utterly over the last 10 years.
'Tory Toffs' is really nothing more than some 17th Century caricature.
After all, isn't the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party descended from aristocracy?
So what is worse, politicians that make no issue of their social bankground and seek to improve the lives of others?
Or politicians that hide their social background and deny those opportunities to others in the interests of a 'equality'?
The hypocrisy is further compounded when their own private lives contradict their public persona and public oratory.
The majority of people in this country don't give a stuff about whether their MP is from an ex-council one-parent family or from a wealthy, well-connected upper class dynasty.
What people care about is are they going to serve in our interest, use good judgement, try to improve our lot and help us to aspire.
The frustration of many people here is that Labour have used bad judgement, are not serving our interests and are wrecking our opportunities to aspire.
Class war, like patriotism, is the last refuge of the scoundrel. This isn't the 1930s, even Orwell in 'The Road to Wigan Pier' trying to define socialism was utterly dismissive of class war as a means to an end.
When the constituency of Glasgow East, a constituency with a lower life expectancy than North Korea, for the first time in 50 years votes for someone else other than Labour; something is very badly wrong.
One by-election win, re-instating old spin-meisters and 'having a good crisis' means very little.
The hard economic reality is this....
Firms are cutting jobs, the economy is in recession, disposable income growth is in reverse, social mobility is falling.
All the words, spin, the "no more boom and bust" are just that - words.
The deeds are: no-one has any money saved for a rainy day, let alone government. There's no gold, no real assets, just mountains and mountains of debt.
Thousands of people are now losing their jobs as a direct result of actions emanating from this government.
Is anything of this aspirational?
By all means, blame 'Tory toffs' but as each month goes by, every single one of Labour's chickens are coming home to roost.
Labour isn't working.
Time for a change.
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Let us be clear about tax cuts.
* A tax break or holiday is NOT a tax cut.
* A tax cut that is later reversed after a general election is a BRIBE.
Treasury and indeed, Conservative Central Office please note.
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From todays Times.
"George Osborne, who, post-yachtgate, wears the grim face of a condemned man".
Given that yachtgate turned out to be very little and Osborne has admitted he made a mistake and apologised.
What secret is he carrying around to make him look so guilty??
Come on you bright young things at Tory party central office - spill the beans!
Bill McFadden
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#147 sicilian
Interesting reading, but somehow, not surprising.
Do you think there is there a legal way that we can oust a Prime Minister who is obviously not up to the job, before the general election? At this rate, there won't be anything left of UK PLC, for any party to take over.
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152 Billmcfadden
Yes - I also read The Times today. You will have no doubt noticed the Leader article which concluded:
"Banks and consumers are having to re-embrace prudence: so must Mr Brown."
Will Brown face reality?
Otherwise - Osborne deserves to look grim, after stoking the Yacht issue. Mandelson deserves to look grimmer, however, he still has a lot of unanswered questions and appears to have been misleading the press.
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#138 sicilian
Ah yes...you're not allowed to care about the poor and try and implement policies to improve social justice unless you live in a rough council estate on benefits. That old chestnut - hypocritical to care about the lot of the working-classes and the poor unless you are one of them.
Anyway, most of the Labour Party are from the middle-classes - that is true - though there are many from Union backgrounds who are not; for example, Alan Johnson, who's gone from delivering post to Chequers in his 20s to visiting it now, and you mention Prescott (who in my view is still working class - class is where you are from rather than who you become in my view). Many went to redbrick universities and state schools.
Most of the Conservative Party are from the upper middle-classes. Most are privately educated (many were educated at Eton school, for example), and went to elite universities. Their core purpose is to serve the rich (e.g. reduce taxes on the rich, reduce spending programmes that benefit the poor, keep the working-classes locked out of the opportunities to perpetuate advantages for children of the upper middle-classes).
As I said, the basic 'Tory Toff' line is out. But Labour are sure to use it in more subtle ways.
#150 Flanflinger
No problem with aspiration - but surely everyone deserves to start on the starting line, rather than hundreds of metres behind it?
Interesting that you say 'Labour has failed on social mobility'. On what grounds do you say that?
Who do Conservatives care about? Who's the priority for their tax cuts? It seems to me that they pay a lot of lip-service to poverty etc, but when it comes down to it they want to cut taxes on the very wealthy and businessmen
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Balhamu
What do you do for a living?
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Labour's use of "Toff" and"Bullingdon" is just laughable.
The last two Conservative Prime Ministers were a daughter of a greengrocer and the son of a music hall entertainer.
Currently the leader and shadow Chancellor are ex-pupils of Eton and were in the Bullingdon Club - so what?
Do those two people characterise the whole Conservative party - or is Labour guilty of this?
There are also people from different backgrounds in the Conservative party. If people from a distinct group take some leadership positions in the party, what stereotypes will Labour use?
I have started you off here below and left some gaps to hear your views Labour fans:
1. Eton Education = Tory Toffs
2. Older people= Tory Codgers
3. Black people = Tory?
4. Gay people = Tory?
5. Jewish people = Tory?
6. Comprehensive Education = Tory?
7. White people = Tory?
8. Asian people = Tory?
9. From working class background = Tory?
10. From middle class background = Tory?
11. From business = Tory?
12. From academia= Tory?
13. From legal background = Tory?
I would have thought Labour had learnt its lesson at Crewe and Nantwich. People weren't really interested in bigoted politics were they?
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If Cameron wants to win the next election all he has to do is fight for the dispossessed or the soon-to-be-dispossessed, the rest will take care of itself. These groups will be the majority soon and no one is speaking for them. The social consequences of ignoring this sector (and how many reading this are themselves worried about it) will be catastrophic.
If DC were to demand an immediate moratorium on all court actions for indebtedness he would be VERY widely applauded.
Cameron is unproven as a leader of this country but that is a better position than to be a thoroughly discredited one which Gifted Gordon most definitely is. DC has everything to gain and nothing to lose, except a few friends in the Tory Old Guard.
GC
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Noted one comment (#92) that "It's time that the very rich pay their fair share in tax so that everyone else can stop paying it for them". See attached link so that you can have an informed debate on the subject, rather than resorting to outdated rhetoric on income tax. Crux of the piece highlights that the top 5% of earners in the UK carry the burden of almost 45% of income tax revenues. Appreciate that the source may not be to your taste but to the extent that you have questions, feel free to challenge the Revene or the ONS.......... unless you are GB, in which case you will simply ignore them:-
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2177136/why-nigel-lawson-was-the-most-redistributive-chancellor-of-the-exchequer.thtml
As for Bill McFadden's observation that he's "glad that no-one takes this blogosphere stuff seriously", it certainly would be easier for the current Government if people disengaged the brain and switched over to another repeat of Strictly Come Dancing. That people are discussing how OUR money is distributed indicates that people are becoming engaged in what is happening.
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#155.
Most of Labour are middle class and went to state school?
No, most of them went to Grammar schools and some were publicly educated and they took full advantage of that education.
As did some of the Tory frontbench like Hague and Davis.
However, taking full advantage of it and then what do Labour do?
Deny it to the rest of us. They threaten the very instituted that educated them with withdrawal of charitable status, for example.
In terms of social mobility, it's not what I say..
It's the LSE, ESRC, UN, Joseph Rowntree Organisation and Sutton Trust that say it.
The blame lying squarely on Labour abolishing Assisted Places, introducing University fees, abolition of maintenance grants.
Not even the 'evil' Tories would do such a thing.
Your class angst betrays us all, Oxford and Cambridge admit on results and talent, not on social background. All universities do this.
The very fact that working class kids don't make it has nothing to do with 'elitism' but everything to do with the core policies of a government that talks big but delivers very little.
The idea that 'all win prizes' fails to accept basic human nature, we are competitive by design, there are winners and losers.
To encourage the 'winners' to go on and make a big contribution and understand their social responsibility is as perfectly acceptable as giving a hand up to the 'losers' and reminding them of their social responsibility.
Like I say, Labour want the poor to stay poor on the premise of keeping a core vote fuelling it that the Tories are only out for themselves.
The Conservative tax cuts are a recognition that firms employ people to make a profit. Any tax on jobs can only be a bad thing.
Not of all of us are destined to be captains of industry but if Labour destroy the means of wealth creation by wreckless handling of the economy then we all lose out.
A fact sadly lost on Labour that failed to understand anything regarding wealth creation but are addicted to quick-fixes of credit.
Creating labels of people a failure to acknowledge that all have something to contribute and to tear up the social fabric that holds us all together. It is divisive, destructive and serves no-one.
How is 'Tory toff' anymore acceptable than 'Labour council house trash'?
It isn't.
And Labour should be utterly ashamed of itself.
But still, fire in another strawman argument, you have no real answers, never have and never will have.
Labour are just a reactionary force to change, they offer no real change themselves.
The last 11 years have demonstrated that.
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I was watching the news with one of my sons, who doesn't have any particular political loyalties and he said "Why do the Conservatives get so much media time, when they are not in power?". Later Channel Four news showed a snippet of film of First World War veterans at number 10 after the Armistice Day ceremony. I was so taken with this image, I watched BBC news at 10.00pm hoping to see it again, only to be disappointed. But I did begin to wonder why both opposition parties are not given equal amounts of media time and to think I cannot answer to my son's question.
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# 108 continues a visualised conversation between Nick and the imaginary PM :
Nick: Following on from that, can you explain why a flat rate tax system is more efficient?
PM: Yes, by that I mean it is more efficient to adminster and therefore will require less effort and expense to run.
Nobody earning an amount that is less than the current official definition of poverty will pay any tax at all.
The implementation of the flat rate scheme also means that 'tax credits' system will no longer be required.
Another benefit of this flat rate system is that tax avoidance is considerably reduced by virtue of the systems simplicity.
I want to emphasise that a primary reason for introducing the flat rate tax system is not only that it is fairly simple to understand, is open and transparent, but we hope also helps to rebuild trust in politicians.
Nick: What did you mean when you said that the NI tax had become corrupted over time?
PM: I mean that although it was created in the 1950's with the noblest of intentions, that is to fund health and pensions, in reality, it had just become yet another tax going into the general pot.
So as part and parcel of our general theme to make politics more honest, we intend to fold NI into Income Tax so that the people understand that the tax extracted from them through the PAYE system is going into a general pot.
Any more questions?
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161;
This perceived imbalance in the media is over corrected in PMQ's where most of the questions are either congratulatory ones aimed at The P.M. or thinly veiled attacks on The Opposition in a ratio of something like 3-1. I've noticed that The P.M. strives to get his face into every media moment going whether it be The Beijing medal winners or Lewis Hamilton. I don't think he suffers from under exposure. From my own point of view I'd like to see a great deal less of him. He makes my blood boil!
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DUkeJake, we're not even talking about the same subjects or, at least, not taking the same stuff out of it.
It doesn't matter to me or bug me as much as some people would suppose, so you're grasping for a handle that isn't there.
Too many people are obsessed with "winning" and fear loss. I find things go easier if you let go of that.
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#147 sicilian29
Very interesting reading - if only journalists would do more to report such blatant dishonesty in our politicians to a wider audience!
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#160 PhaetonFlanFlinger
If you watched the BBC this morning there was a story about a school who have introduced a "No Tolerance" code and the Headmistress there has issued over 400 Supspension Orders to pupils who are continually disruptive.
Not only has this got rid of the element of children who don't want to learn and love making things hard for those who do, but the school's pass rate for exams has gone up from 50% to 75%. These are ordinary kids from ordinary backgrounds and every one interviewed said the school was better for it.
I am in favour of this 100%. Why should the standard of all pupils' education be dragged down to the lowest common denominator because the needs of the children who aren't interested in learning are more important to the school than the rest of the class.
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Re 155. Before making that statement that your Labour class warriors "are from the middle classes", I'm sure you are aware that...
Brown - State school
Darling - Public school
Millipede - State school (including a stint in Boston, MT) the PPE at Oxford
Straw - Public school
Jacqui Smith - State school then Oxford
Hutton - Public school then Oxford
Johnson - rose through the ranks of Unions
Benn - State school (albeit Holland Park, "the Socialist Eton")
Alexander - State school
Harman - Public school (St Pauls)
Purnell - Public school the Oxford
Hoon - Public school
Blears - State school
Balls - Public school then Oxford
Need I go on? Doesn't read like a body of working class heros does it.
Aside from the fact that the public simply don't care about this, if one is going to pick this battle, do try not to look like absolute hypocrites.
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If any party was really thinking of tax relief, then the easiest thing to do surely would be to increase the personal allowance to a real amount.
its accross the board and is reasonably easy to instigate.
To compensate a higher tax rate can be instigated, and realistically the average person would save.
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# 162 continues a visualised conversation between Nick and the imaginary PM :
Nick {laughing}: Prime Minister, I don't think that I have ever heard a politician mention 'tax extracted' before.
PM: Well, we have to be open and honest about these things and it is simply a statement of fact to say that these income taxes are not volunteered, they are extracted.
However, if the people wish to offer some addditional money to the Government, then all contributions are gratefully received!
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#157 jonathan_cook
Yes I agree, Thatcher and Major were not of the Cameron/Osborne breed, which was all to their and the tory party's credit.
That is the sad paradox of the current Tory Party. They try and sell themselves as something new and modern yet the leader and the shadow chancellor are throw backs to a bygone age.
Every major political leader from Obama to Thatcher at some point makes a speech to show how the journey they have made in their lives has shaped them and why this makes them electable.
Brand Cameron ('Dave' to it's friends) is deficient in this respect.
The tories are so sensitive about the use of the terms 'Old Etonian', ' ex-Bullingdon Club' and 'Toff' wholly because in the case of Cameron and Osborne they are factual and cannot be denied.
Bill McFadden
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#166.
I did indeed see that. My sympathy is with teachers that want to teach but find they cannot exercise any form of meaningful discipline to do so.
Labour are fantastic at banging on about rights but totally and systematically fail to understand about the responsibilities that go with them.
Of course, some of these disruptive children may well require more focussed teaching. They used to be called 'special needs' schools.
But then Labour have been closing these very schools to foster intangibles such as 'inclusiveness'.
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How many recall "Are You Being Served"? Just imagine 'Young' Mr Grace coming to examine Gordon Brown's progress. Unemployment up, building down, etc. etc. "You are doing very well, Mr Brown, Carry On!"
All this is part of Brown's Gutterdamerung. The more people homeless, the more families on benefits, the larger his captive 'audience'. If he has to go down, then by heavens, we all go too!
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No, that wasn't bad spelling. Wanted to show its right down the drain!
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I'll duck comment on the Brown versus Cameron thing, and the issues of Tory branding. Steve Richards makes an interesting comment on the character of politicians and the media.
I tend to think that a more confident Labour party and less brash media is probably a good thing. I'm going to take a punt on this and suggest both Labour and the media are developing the new narrative Nick comments on because, well, it's a better direction than the alternative.
The media have seen the crash of turbo-capitalism and are acutely aware of their own sub-prime circulation figures. Tory attitudes and support fueled the crash and this must be playing on the media's mind. Do they really want to swallow the Tory Kool-Aid and go down the same way?
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172
How about Harriet Harmperson as Mrs Slocombe? Nooo, more Mr Peacock. But Hazel Blears can be Mrs Slocombe's cat.
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so balhamu...I see you've slipped in your own cowpat about the tory toffs.
As per usual newlabour think they have an argument but it's 50% hyperbole and 50% hypocrisy.
This governemnt ios falling on its sword faster than you can say 'spin doctor'.
Unemployment rising faster, housing repossessions rising faster, personal insolvencies at an all time high and it's all the fault of the global downturn isn't it?
All we need to do now is call int he spin doctors, prance around on the global stage and throw boatloads of taxpayer cash at it and the next election will be newlabour's.
Er, no. The global downturn is going to be worse here according to the IMF because debt is higher here than anywhere else. it will be worse here because after eleven years of newlabour spinnning we have an even larger financial sector, an even smaller industrial base, an even more bloated public sector and higher levels of personal indebtedness than ever in history.
Affordable debt? Don't make me laugh. Anyone owing vast amounts of cash to the banks will not be worrying about the affordability when asked to repay a mortgage that is five times their salary but worth moer than their house can fetch.
This was a boom built on credit. A newlabour boom.
And it is newlabour's bust.
Call an election.
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170 Billmcfadden
Winston Churchill (Conservative & Harrow) made much of his background and upbringing.
Including:
1. An authoritarian father - who appeared to have little time for Winston
2. Brought up by a nanny - rather than by his parents. He learned a lot of values from his nanny, but still wished his father wasn't so cold towards him
3. He struggled academically in a high achieving school
4. In many respects he was deemed a failure by his father and was forced to join Army as a 2nd or 3rd rate option - compared to what other opportunities might have been open for him.
i.e. It doesn't matter what your background is - you may still have very relevant experience that has "built character".
From the outside Churchill had a priviliged background. Whatever influence he did have - these influences clearly made him ideal for the job the nation asked of him as PM.
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#170
Bill, yes, a politician's past. They have a story to tell about how they got there....
A tear-jerking weepy of triumph over adversity.
Let's see, for example, Harman, Straw and Hewitt, activists and agitators with anti-establishment leanings. So much so, that MI5 had files on some of them.
The Foreign Office particularly describing Jack Straw's actions in Chile on a student visit as an 'troublemaker acting with malice aforethought.'
Or that the current Chancellor who was a supporter of the International Marxist Group in his youth?
Or that the Health Secretary considered himself aligned to the Communist party?
Or the Business Secretary was a member of Young Communist League in his youth and went on a Soviet Union sponsored conference to Cuba?
Hmm, the Tory leader went to Eton and was a member of a notorious dining club is comparable to that I guess.
So if someone called me a 'class traitor' or 'middle class wannabe' because I've worked my way up from working class to the professional middle class.
Is that acceptable?
It's as acceptable as 'class war dinosaur' or 'champagne socialist'.
Or the current ones like 'hard working families'.
So if you aren't a parent, you aren't hard working?
Calling people names detracts from the actual political debate.
Resorting to them can only infer a complete weakness in their argument, a lack of character to debate the real issues and a flippancy for the democratic process.
So please, do carry on.
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1159 Just a few minutes to go now. BBC political editor Nick Robinson says the PM should have a "spring in his step". Gordon Brown has arrived.
I'd like to see you justify why the PM should have a spring in his step on the day the BoE says we've been in recession since mid year and that its getting worse and also the day unemployment hits 1997 levels 1.83m
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1210 Mr Brown says the government will act fully and quickly on the Baby P case and accuses Mr Cameron of making a "party political issue" of the tragedy.
What he meant was stop asking me difficult questions that I cant answer
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PMQs is now on. The dreadful case of Baby P has been raised, and Brown, after his usual platitudes responded to DC's questions with "Lessons must be learned." More inquiries, more lessons, enough! It seems the mother and her so-called lovers have more protection than an innocent baby. Their names must be kept from the public. Surely, the Son of the Manse must know a little of the religion he was raised in. "Suffer little children to come unto Me." The people who are supposed to be involved in protecting our children, are certainly making sure that there are plenty of suffering candidates.
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#170 BillMcFadden
That is the sad paradox of the current Tory Party. They try and sell themselves as something new and modern.........
I seem to remember Labour re-packaging and selling themselves as something new and modern back in 1997.
If the cap fits.....
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#156 shelling
Flattered you take such an interest in what I do for a living. Does it matter?
160 flanflinger
So Grammar schools are private are they? Sorry, I didn't know that. I bow to your superior knowledge of the education system.
Interesting you blame Labour for any decline in social mobility. Those born in 1997 when they came to power are now 11 years old. Those aged 11 in 1997 (and entering secondary school under a Labour government) are now 22. Bit early to be drawing conclusions. The mose recent studies of social mobility look at those born in 1970, who were 27 when Labour came to power. Surely you're not blaming Labour for lack of social mobility in that cohort - it would be unfair to not let the Conservatives take the credit for that as they schooled them.
Amusing you seem to think that it's just as easy for a child of given talent to get on regardless of whether they went to Eton or went to an inner-city comp. And think there is a perfect correlation between academic results and talent.
And I never said the 'Tory Toff' phraseology was acceptable - merely that Labour will use the sentiment.
#176 RobinJD
What do you think was wrong with my analysis of what Labour will do then? Do you think they won't try to use the background of Conservative minister's against them? Or do you just think its irrelevant to the situation (which is something quite different)?
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#183 balhamu
Flattered you take such an interest in what I do for a living. Does it matter?
I take it you don't work then?
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balhamu
read #167
Analysis? I've read several of your posts and am yet to see any analysis. Don't flatter yourself.
Newlabour are hypocrites to criticise the backgrounds of tory toffs. They have their own brigade of the high born and educated and they always did. It's just a shame they wasted their educations thinking newlabour do-gooding was the way to build an economy.
Newlabour regularly trot out their 'progressive policies' vs the lack of tory answers. They are less keen to admit than they don't have a single original idea in their heads. Bank of England independance; sure start; tax credits were all stolen from Alan Greenspan in the US - Gordon Brown's favourite enobled economist. Also he's the man responsible for Gordon Brown's unfaltering belief in the ability of credit to fund growth - now bust on both sides of the Atlantic.
newlabour is as ideologically bankrupt as it was when it came to power in 1997. Even the calls that 'a lot of what Keynes said still amkes sense' are the words of delusional fools. keynes proosed intervention pre the NHS, pre social security, pre disability benefits, pre comprehensive education and pre milllions of public sector employees and nationalised industries.
We already have billions of pounds of governemtn spending we now need to reign it in and get value for money. That's not Firedman or Keynes it's common sense. Something newlabour left in the rubbish bin years ago.
Call an election. Now, before any more public money is wasted on useless enterprises.
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#185 Robin
So I'm wrong then?
Labour won't be attempting to paint the Conservatives as over-priviliged people who only care about the rich. They will not be using the 'Tory Toff' angle or subtle variants on the theme. It will not happen.
Thanks for correcting me.
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#184 shelling
No, I don't work (well not officially).
I try and stay out of work (and get purposefully fired from the jobs the Government finds me) so I can claim my dole money. I find that £60.50 per week is a lot of money (and thats not including the £50 per week housing benefit I get) and it goes a long way. I sit at home in my cockroach-infested bedsit literally swimming in all the money that I have. It's the life to have - I'm so lucky! You work, and I get the benefit.
Some people tell me that I could earn £250-£300 per week if I worked, but I'm just not interested.
I'm really scared of a Conservative government because they might force me to do some work. I have an arrangement with Labour where they pay me benefits for doing nothing, and they stupidly believe that I'm going to drag myself from my bed to go and vote in a general election. Haha.
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Personally I hope that Labour supporters continue with the toff angle because it's been proved to be a vote loser.
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#187 shelling
I forgot to add, my dad used to go out to work, but the Conservatives said that they would pay him to stay at home and do nothing as that was a 'price well worth paying' to control inflation and rapidly restructure the economist. He was looking for work for a long time, but they just told him he should take it easy and pretend to be ill, as it was no good just being part of the unemployment figures.
It's been a long-standing arrangement between politicians and my family.
#188 sicilian
I wouldn't be so sure its a vote loser. There were other more important things at play in Crewe, and the use of the theme was quite crude.
We'll see (though RobinJD is convinced Labour are not going to use the Tory Toff angle).
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Lets face it, Labour have made working for a living a financial suicide mission.
We might as well all resign and live off the state for the rest of our lives.
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And now we learn that the extra Government borrowing will be paid back after all by getting us tp pay higher taxes next year and it follows for years thereafter.
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This horrific case occurred because a young woman. little more than a child herself, apparently did not have the decency and intelligence to care for that child, yet had enough cunning to be able to hide that fact from the local authority's social services. The spat in the Commons yesterday reflected the disgust and horror we all feel that this could occur in this day and age.
I can't see how either the PM or the leader of the opposition can be censored for getting upset about it. They are both reflecting the general shock people feel when the details of the case have been revealed.
My personal opinion is that the tolerance of and widedspread use of of illegal drugs, including cannabis, and the culture of drinking to excess can be the only explanation for human beings to behave in this sub-human way. I find it hard to believe and really I don't want to believe that young people could actually behave in this cruel and evil way outside a severe drug-taking or alcoholic habit.
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