The sanctity of the Commons
The arrest of Damian Green and the forced search of his parliamentary office have caused anger and concern on all sides of politics. From Tony Benn to David Davis and Nick Clegg, there is fury at the police's violation of the sanctity of the Commons and the challenge to the duty of an opposition member to hold the government to account.
I am grateful to a colleague for pointing me to the defiant words of Speaker Lenthall to Charles I in 1642.
They were uttered when the king tried to have five MPs arrested in the Commons. On his knees before the sovereign, the Speaker explained why he would not co-operate, explaining that his duty was to the House and not to the king.
May it please your majesty, I have neither eyes to see nor tongue to speak in this place but as this house is pleased to direct me whose servant I am here; and humbly beg your majesty's pardon that I cannot give any other answer than this
P.S.: My earlier post seems to have generated anger from those who were appalled at the arrest of Damian Green.
Having covered the cash-for-honours case (rather more vigorously than the government was comfortable with), I was merely trying to answer the two questions which were asked then and are being asked now: why did the police feel the need to arrest Damian Green and to raid his house?
Incidentally, I thought that comparing Green with Churchill might just have hinted that I saw the gravity of the situation.
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Much better, now go and ask the current speaker why he doesn't show the same defiance.
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I think that you should just be honest and admit that your earlier post was (at best) pathetic and completely missed the point that this is a serious constitutional issue. Everyone can have a bad day but better to admit it than try to justify the earlier post in any way.
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Nick,
A bit more like it. Now when are you going to tell us which Minister knew what when? More importantly, did the Speaker authorise this sinister raid? If yes, what do you see as the implications for him, the Commons, the Government and the Police? Then you can start to recover some of your lost reputation.
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Nick,
are you a glutton for punishment?
I for one didn't miss the point of the Churchill reference - some posters need it spelled out less obliquely.
That these events are outrageous is clear and thanks for the quote from Speaker Lenthall.
Would thank Speaker Martin was aware of this piece of history.
When Tony Benn and David Davis are in agreement you know that somewhere someone is having a really bad day.
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This post unlike the last one hits at the true crux of the matter which is the sovereignty of parliament.
The anger that many posted, was no doubt influenced by what seemed to be a contempt for parliament and its rights.
Many will draw inference that this happened on the day before Sir Ian Blair stood down as Head of the Met.
Surely no on can doubt that whilst we stand at a cross roads economically we face a similar cross roads politically.
We have had arguments over 42 days; the issue of increased police surveillance; storage of emails and phone records allied to a national identity card scheme that to many seems not only a huge invasion of human rights but also a scheme that we cannot afford and will not work.
Policitcally as well as economically the next 18 months and the election of the next Prime Minister will see Britain move decisively one way or another.
Much has been made of comparisons with erosion of liberties in the past in other countries and some people are standing up to be counted against what they perceive is a similar process in Britain today.
We are approaching a key step in our countries development for generations to come. It is critical that our rights and freedoms are defended during this time and yesterday was a particularly bad day in that fight.
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I have to say I am getting increasingly concerned about the nature of our present Government. We had the attempt at 90 days detention without trial, then the attempt at 42 days. We have ID cards. We have proposals to monitor every email and mobile phone call. We have had attempts to restrict trial by jury. They want to keep all our DNA on a central database. Anti-terror legislation used against Icelandic Banks and other cases where no terrorism is suspected. Now we have this blatant attempt to intimidate civil servants and members of the Opposition.
Quite frankly, I do not believe Brown and Smith for one single moment, when they claim they were not forewarned of this police action.
It all adds up to a very disturbing picture. I do not trust our Government at all.
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So what are the "important similarities" your last blog mentioned, other than being arrested in a police raid ? They end there as far as I can see.
All a bit lightweight I'm afraid Nick.... you could show a bit more understanding towards the arrest of people with "inside" information as you may be one of them yourself soon.
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Read the words of the spokesman very carefully. All they say is they had no prior knowledge of the arrest.
Well, they wouldn't would they. But did they insitgate the investigation? Did they know of its progress? Did they know an arrest would be made?
No answer to these. Just another nail in the coffin of this country and the freedoms we once had.
The sooner this rotten lot are cast out the better.
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So, Gordon the Golem knew nothing - the Tories are the "do nothings", but the government is the "know nothings".
The lights are going out across the kingdom, they will not be lit again until this discredited pseudo-fascist regime is kicked out. The drift towards a police state cannot now be denied.
As ever, the great Dr Hunter S Thompson has the answer:
"Goddammit. Yeah, I have. First, there's a huge difference between being arrested and being guilty. Second, see, the law changes and I don't. How I stand vis-à-vis the law at any given moment depends on the law. The law can change from state to state, from nation to nation, from city to city. I guess I have to go by a higher law. How's that? Yeah, I consider myself a road man for the lords of karma."
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I -- of course -- acknowledge that the police should arrest suspects in futherence of their investigations.
However, I should think that all right-thinking Englishmen would be proud to have been arrested on so nebulous a charge as: "Conspiring to commit misconduct in a public office".
If Mr Green has any sense he'll have ordered up the T-shirts already; and you, Nick, ought to be first in line. After all, all journalism worthy of the name is guilty of that charge, isn't it?
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It is a measure of the hypocrisy and total lack of principle of our mainstream politicians that both the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats feel "anger and concern" when one of their own suffer at the hands of Labour's 'People's Police' , but have nothing to say when members of the BNP regularly undergo harrassment, arrest, obstruction and blatantly politically-inspired prosecutions.
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Given the events in Mumbai, I would perhaps have thought that the anti-terrorist police would have other things to think about other than arresting an MP member of the shadow cabinet.
Today is also the last day of Iain Blair apparently, and the start of a parliamentary break. This investigation was apparently started by a home office civil servant, and ministers apparently know nothing about any of this !
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Well done Nick for acknowledging the outrage of the contributors to your blog.
Now could we please be told who made the claims that Damian Green leaked confidential Government documents?
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I'm not so sure that this does undermine democracy. What I think it does however do is underline the independence of the police from the politicans, which would appear to me to be rather important in a democracy. It is surprising that the politicians are so up-in-arms about this arrest so early on in the investigation - after all, on the face of it, the police had reasonable grounds to suspect someone of an offence, and made an arrest, just as they would any other member of the public. Do politicans think that they are in some way above the law?
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Thank you, Nick, for recognizing publicly and quickly what I think is a genuine non-partisan anger at the events of the last 24 hours.
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Mr Robinson,
"..I am grateful to a colleague for pointing me to the defiant words of Speaker Lenthall to Charles I in 1642..."
Are you really saying that you needed someone to tell you about those words - some of the most famous in our parliamentary history, and ones which are (or were, given modern educational practice) taught to every child in the land?
And you work as a senior POLITICAL comentator for the BBC? Do you need reminding about what Charles I said just before this response? Something about the birds flying...?
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If we ignore all the nonsense being spouted bt Ms Smith and Mr Brown - let's get to someone who did know
Why did the SPeaker allow such actions to take place?
Either I misunderstand the role of the Speaker or this Speaker does? Or, is it that he too doesn't want anymore investigations into HIS expenses?
Nick, please let us have an interview with the Speaker and get some sort of justification.
My view is he should resign out of embarrassment immediately.
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posters and readers will do well to read this account of the Sally Murer (Khan bugging etc) which, disgracefully has not been covered by our national media.
Note the charge 'misconduct in a public office' appears to have recently become the cover-all probabaly because it carries the threat of a life sentence. perhaps somebody will tell us when this law was passed and when the sentence was set.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7750669.stm
Good to see you re-evaluating your approach to this case, Nick. Many of us do appreciate the levels of vindictiveness which will be applied to the searching journalist and no doubt you too might be offered the aspirin and penknife, but after an hour of net scrutiny and a conversation with a Sunday editor, there are many people of varying persuasions who have quickly grasped what is transpiring before our eyes. Keep on it!
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The behaviour of Mr Martin, who is supposed to be apolitical in these matters is a disgrace!
He should resign.
Begone foul spot!
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How the Government can say that they had not been made aware of this when Boris, Cameron and Speaker Martin had been told.
I was listening to Radio 2 earlier; a lady caller likened this arrest to something that would happen in Zimbabwe or in East Germany!
Lets think about this for a moment, we have an un elected leader (even by his own party) ID cards on the way no matter the cost or implications, No vote on the EU constitution (despite the promise of a manifesto), Some dubious reporting from our flagship media company and now an MP getting arrested for doing his job just because it's not good for the Government.
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Nick,
You still provide no analysis on this very serious matter. Even the reporting of it on the 6 o'clock news was a tame 2 minute effort without your input. Please have something ready by the 10 o'clock news and redeem yourself! You are better than this!
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At last.....Well done Nick Robinson, I knew you would HAVE to update, It was inevitable, since your last post so badly misjudged peoples reaction to this outrage. The problem is that you sat squarely on the fence. Sometimes you have to call it as you see it EVEN IF you work for the BBC. To hint in such vague terms is the reason you have had so many angry comments.
To suggest Fury is the RIGHT on the money..
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It can't be far away time for "the good men who stand by and do nothing" to do something. If the Countryside Alliance can get a million marching through London it can't be beyond the ability of us to take time out and protest.
This disgraced government continually talks the talk but seems to think that is all that is needed.
Gordon and his cronies out!!
Can anyone smell the whif of Mandelson
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OK Nick. You've redeemed yourself somewhat. Now start asking the questions we all want you to ask!
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Nick - I still think you need to do a bit more backtracking. There are major questions to be answered here. It's your job to ask them. Why did the MPS use counter terrorism officers, when the operation was not terrorism related? Why have you not commented on the fact that this arrest coincides with Sir Ian Blair's last few days in office? Do you not think that the most politicised Commissioner in history was trying to make a point and get back at the Tories?
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For what its worth, Nick, I don't think you (or the BBC in general for that matter) is showing any bias on this one.
And given I'm on the David Davis right of the Tory party, I suppose that must mean something!
Very disturbing events, though.
PS why on earth is Charlie saying the Tories are grandstanding? Being arrested is 'grandstanding' now?
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At 5:47pm on 28 Nov 2008, spirite_uk wrote:
Much better, now go and ask the current speaker why he doesn't show the same defiance.
Totally agree. It is irrelevant whether Gordon Brown knew of the impending arrest or not, the principles of democracy from 1642 still apply, otherwise this country becomes more like Burma or Zimbabwe where the ruling party will not tolerate any dissent or criticism.
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The speaker should either resign or he should be subject to a confidence vote.
28/11/08 - the day democracy died in the UK
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Ben is wrong and the rest are proving to the people that politicians are corrupt.
This sad closing of ranks in the face of independant research is naught but defence of ill earned privalage,
If an MP incites or encourages a leak then a crime has been comitted,
We do not know yet.
But such staunch defence does make one wonder as to the morality of those who demand privalefed protection against the rule we the people, simple and honsest, abide by.
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Nick
At this moment in time you're probably the biggest victim of attempted bullying in the UK, Bar none.
Desperate attempts to force you to sing from the same hymn sheet as the reactionary right wing on here is sickening. Just rise above it as usual.
As for this strange affair it is hard to understand what's happening, mainly because no one blogging on here is privvy to any facts about the case whatsoever.
A few things we may all agree on (well possibly)
1 A civil servant leaking any information considered (rightly or wrongly) to be confidential is likely to face sanction.
2 If anyone is encouraging said leaks, then this opens them up to possible investigation (not necessarily prosecution) if encouraging/aiding law breaking.
3 MPs etc should not be above the Law any more than the local "chav".
4 Do we not expect the Police to investigate allegations, as made by a senior Civil Servant in this case to "Go where the investigation leads" to quote Yates of the Yard.
AS yet we know little else.
There will be cries of Stalin/Mugabe etc. But remember, they are exactly the sort of despot that also expects yo be above the Law.
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I wondered if the reaction of 90%+ of the comments to your original blog would mean you'd have to rethink and add another. I was hoping you'd post a proper analysis of the demise of our liberties rather than a justification of your original post.
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The simple question is this:
What is the point of a representative assembly if it cannot hold the administration to account? If its members cannot criticise or investigate without facing arrest and having their possessions confiscated, then it is worse than useless. It conceals the use of naked power behind a facade of democracy.
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NICK,
THAT PARALLEL SEEMS FAR MORE APT.
I AM GLAD YOU DO ACTUALLY TAKE NOTICE OF THE FEEDBACK YOU GET.
SORRY FOR UPPER CASE - AM POSTING FROM MY MOBILE.
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I think you and the BBC should rethink your whole attitude to how you interpret the news. I think it would be much better if you in fact reported the events rather than putting your own sadly inadequate and badly biased interpretation on it. To even suggest similarities in these two cases was a gross misjudgement. One case involved government corruption at the highest level, whereas the other case involves the rights of not only a member of parliament but of a freeborn British citizen to criticise government. This is a right that this nation tore itself apart in civil war to retain and this dreadful government must not be allowed to undermine this right. Perhaps when they get around to removing this self same right from yourself and the rest of the third estate you may notice what they are doing.
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Nick:
I was merely trying to answer the two questions which were asked then and are being asked now: why did the police feel the need to arrest Damian Green and to raid his house?
More than likely the police were coerced into doing it by NuLab*, who were trying to silence the moles so that they could continue to hide the truth from us: that thanks to their gambling, profligacy and dreadful policies, our country--- both economically and socially, is ruined.
*Standby for some huge pay rises/lucrative contracts for those high up in the police. O yes. Wait and see.
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#1 spirite_uk &
#3 doctorJonathanS
Bang on the money.
#2 cherie4glitterball
True, but any movement toward investigative journalism should be welcomed rather than smothered at birth.
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I will not be satisfied until we get full answers from the government on ALL questions asked, including what they DID know about the entire investigation.
As the complaining body who would have brought the Police in they must have known something. These evasive answers only increase the suspicion that they knew more than they'd like to admit.
The invasion of the Parliamentary offices is a very serious action. And nine counter-terrorism officers? Nine? With terrorist attacks in India and British citizens the targets, have they really nothing better to do? Are British citizens not their first priority, or is it only when they've been accused of ruffling the gov's feathers?
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It would be interesting to know who the magistrate was who signed the search warrant allowing the police to search the MP's office in the Houses of Parliament, and whether this was the first time this has ever been done.
Did the magistrate stop and think before he signed the warrant?
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This is looking more and more like a fishing trip to gather evidence. If that is the case it will raise serious issues about the position of Speaker if the governments assertion that they didn't know a thing is correct.
I am a little concerned about the actual words used by Gordon Brown which could be taken two ways.
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FURTHER ABUSE OF PARLIAMENT BY NEW
LABOUR.
TODAY THEY ENDED OUR DEMOCRACY.
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Why did the Home Office have a list of MPs who opposed the 42 day limit? Given what happened yesterday they could be next on the list.
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Eatonrifle , you forget a critcal point, Parliament is the highest court in the land, anyone elected to Parliament has the protection of that Court, and anyone seeking to assist that Court also receives protection.
So it isn't Damian Green who is in the wrong, but the Executive and the Police for showing contempt for the highest court in the land.
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Nick,
You seem surprised that the majority of posters disagree with the line you take, saying you are a Government lackey.
This is the response to every single post you make on this blog.
The conspiracy theorist in me would say that it is in the main (with some exceptions) a concerted campaign to 'astroturf' the blogosphere with the CCHQ line operated by a few sockpuppets.
You won't be adopting the right line for them unless you never criticise Cameron, admit that Brown is a disaster, Stalinist and similar to Mugabe, and take your editorial line from Richard Littlejohn and his friends at the Mail, the majority of posters will continue to suggest you are biased. It's the Guido element.
I would suggest you don't even bother trying it.
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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Labour fill me with disgust
Every time they abuse our trust;
They tax all our cash
And burn it to ash,
No wonder the country's gone bust...
And now they're trying to create
The Nu Labour Party Police State,
Kim Jong Il would be pleased
At the freedoms they've seized...
Control is the Labour trait.
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Cassius in praise of Nick Robinson (for once!)
and issuing a challenge to all:
http://cassiuswrites.blogspot.com/2008/11/honouring-lenthalls-legacy-challenge-to.html
"If Nick Robinson and others are correct, that the outrage at these events goes beyond mere politics, then all of those involved have an important and immediate task which goes beyond their party or political loyalties and to the heart of "Britishness" - to borrow a phrase from Gordon Brown."
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The job of MP's from opposition parties is to question the government and ensure they are running the Country in the correct manner.
Time and time again this government has proven they cannot be trusted with the power they have been given. It seems they now cannot even be bothered to discuss their failings; they simply have people arrested for speaking about them.
This sort of thing happens in 3rd World dictatorships, are we not supposed to have a democracy?
It is the job of the press to find out EXACTLY what BROWN and SMITH had to do with this discraceful situation, I for one suspect they has full knowledge and quite possibly involvement.
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Blimey that was quick, completely missed the earlier reaction
Finally we see the result of all Labour's years of eroding our civil liberties, having an MP arrested for revealing information that is in the public interest - all governments want to keep things quiet, but this, this is truly frightening
I really hope this is the death knell for labour - what is it? the fourth this week?
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I'm prepared (just) to believe Brown didn't know about this.
I'm not prepared to accept that he hasn't been part of a group that has created the environment where this would hapen.
We are losing our traditional liberties under cover of being scared - scared of terrorism (which kills fewer people a year than die on the roads in a week), global warming (feels like it doesn't it?) and whatever they think of next to corrall us into obedience and greater control.
Anyone watch the great speech by "V" in the film/comic "V for Vendetta" where he accuses the British public of being at fault for letting their fear get the better of them and allowing a dictator to rise? I kept it on record because truly I believe it could be written for now.
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Hardley a surprise, after all when the police can kill an innocent Brazilian with impunity, arresting an MP is small beer. We should be very worried and the police ashamed.
Would these fools have held Mr Green for 42 days given half a chance.
What chance for the rest of us?
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Nick,
You, like Damien Green, have been in receipt of leaked material. Perhaps you should be telling the police what cabinet members leaked what to you when.
You could always post their names here, rather than try and divert attention away with silly comparisons to Ruth Turner's arrest.
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So ..... do we expect similar arrests about the leaking of the details of the PBR especially the higher tax band for those earning over £150k and the reduction in VAT which everyone seemed to know about before our cardboard chancellor stood up? Either it's an offense for everyone or no-one. Or is it only when it embarrasses the Government is it an offense?
Ask the questions, Nick, ask the questions ....
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Here's an idea! When many are worried sick about the economic mire that they now find themselves in, how about adding to that by having an Opposition MP arrested for highlighting a few uncomfortable facts about the Government's shortcomings?
Yeah, 'cos that really helps.
Honestly, which brain commando thought that one up?
What also looks really great, always inspires confidence and always reassures people, are the stony-faced looks on the dials of Brown, Smith, Straw, etc, when quizzed about this today.
Of course, no chance of a condemnation of the police for this quasi-fascist action, merely an already tired sounding "I respect the independence of the police" or "I didn't know, it HAS to have been someone else..." (maybe a failing American bank tipped the police off...)
And all the time maintaining the look of an Easter Island statue that's just been told a huge flock of seagulls is on its way to the area.
Has it really come to this? Is this what Gordon's "vision" is all about? Remember that? What he droned on about shortly after clumping his way up Downing Street to get the keys off Slippery Tony?
Some vision.
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Can this country get any more depressing?
Bust, run by clowns into the ground and now behaving like a police state.
It's been coming though; the gradual prohiobition of opinion, however wrong headed, was always a dangerous precedent.
The BNP, those with unpleasant opinions on race etc, should be allowed to speak because only through openness can the poverty of their ideas be exposed. Suppression only serves to glamorise and give encouragement to those seeking to subvert important liberties won by brave men almost 800 years ago.
Now we get this; an MP raided by counter-terrorist police because they were most appropriate for the job. First it's Iceland who have their assets seized using terrorism legislation, now the police get to try out their stormtrooper tactics on an MP. Please Brown, just go. For all our good, just go now.
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re: 56, maggiex3
What chance for the rest of us?
There is hope: an X next to any other party than Labour.
power_to_the_ppl predicts the next General Election will see a record number of postal ballots... ...and a record high of postal ballot fraud.
Power is everything to Labour.
They will see this country burn before they relinquish their grip.
Brown will cling to No. 10 at any price.
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How dare the police try to enforce the law? Don't they know it's only civil servants and other lesser people who get prosecuted for leaking?
After all, every politician does it, so it must be OK.
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I thought that it was against the law for Police to raid an MP's office in the House of Commons!
Also if Gordon Brown did not know about the raid (which he must have done because it is in his territory) why has he not joined the outcry against the Police for raiding his members, even though in opposition, rights?
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How convenient for the government that the arrest coincided with the terrible events in Mumbai.
How convenient that the next PMQs are not until 10th December.
Even if Brown et al knew nothing of this (hard to believe) why are they not joining in the fury that exists on all sides? Parliament and therefore our democracy is under real threat and they don't care!
We have to send this government packing ASAP.
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#48
"This is the response to every single post you make on this blog."
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MP Norman Baker's office was 'burgled' and computer files and other notes were removed when he was investigating the death of Dr David Kelly.
As far as I know, no-one was held accountable.
As for Brown and Smith denying they were involved in Damien Green's arrest, there is nothing they can say that I would now believe.
And you, Nick, - why so timid? ....
...You may not be a Tory,
Civil Rights are for the few,
But who will speak for journalists When 'they' come for you?
( cf Martin Niemoller 1946)
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How about asking the question:
Why did COUNTER TERROR police feel the need to arrest Damian Green and to raid his house.
Is there a terror issue here?
Or are Anti Terror laws being used to harass the opposition and deter future whistle blowers.
Get with the program Nick, 1642 is just so over.
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I'm glad to see this debate - if that's what it is. I consider myself to be a very staid law abiding citizen, but just from reports like this and the demeanour of the police I see on the streets I have no confidence of being treated fairly or reasonably if accused of some misdemeanour. It thus leases me to see politicians waking up to the fears of the population.
When I was a kid a policeman was someone you asked to see you across a busy road. Now the kids avoid the police to avoid getting into trouble.
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#48
"This is the response to every single post you make on this blog"
Come on, that won't wash and you know it.
Many of us who are not Tories (I was Labour, now vote LD in the hope of a hung Parliament and PR) have been profoundly disturbed by the recent tendancy of Nick's blogs to be overly (and sometimes overtly) sympathetic to Labour and Gordon Brown in particular, regardless of the circumstances and the topic.
Yes there are a few rabid pro-Tory / anti-Labour people who hog this forum occasionally; a few dyed-in-the wool Labourites, some of whom seem to have a direct line to Labour HQ; and some people who contribute mainly to read their own cleverness on the internet. But I suspect most of us are ordinary Joes, probably retired people like me who still believe in democracy and all that stuff, think we have some experience and expertise, and welcome the chance to have our say that the BBC provides.
When Nick makes balanced posts the response is always more or less equally balanced. It's just there haven't been that many of them lately...
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If it is true that the government had no prior knowledge of this heavy handed police action then it raises another question as to who is running the country?
The State's most senior civil servant appears to have taken it into his head to make the initial complaint without reference to the government, and then in turn, the police having dragged out a singularly obscure offence upon which to act, charged in with a posse of anti terrorist officers who should have better things to do.
So it appears that we are all at the mercy of a faceless bureaucrat answerable to no-one and a police force happy to be creative with obscure laws to justify their actions.
Which strikes me as a long way from democracy and a dangerous development.
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34. Eatonrifle wrote:
Nick
At this moment in time you're probably the biggest victim of attempted bullying in the UK, Bar none
Well that remains to be seen doesnt it, events will tell us over the next week or so if being arrested and detained by COUNTER TERRORIST officers for 9 hours and having his family home and constituency home and offices searched by 9 COUNTER TERRORIST officers, plus having his computers files and mobile phone confiscated can be justified or not.
If it was then youre right and Im wrong and I will write you a 100 word appolgy here on Nicks blog.
DO you fancy a wager?
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#42
You'll have me crying next. The Green affair is totally different and totally unrelated in any way - it is very low to attempt to link it but I expect little else from BNP sympathizers.
The BNP is a reason true democrats have to hold their nose, close the eyes and think twice very seriously before repeating the second part of the old quote (misworded I'm sure but the sentiment is what counts).
"I reserve the right to disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
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Anti money laundering legislation is routinely used to protect the tax base; anti-terrorist legislation to seize Icelandic assets and to enforce council's litter policy; an MP is arrested by special branch officers. This is precisely why there was so much disquiet about 42 day detention and why David Davis was right to take the stance that he did.
Controversial decisions like this are not taken on a whim. If ministers did not know why did they not and they owe parliament a full explanation.
The irony is that this is a government that has consistently leaked stories to the press in contempt of parliamentary procedure. Indeed I thought the advance announcement on VAT was a deliberate leak.
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Nick,
listened to Geoff Hoon on Radio 4 this evening. There was a perfectly proper inquiry by the police into leaks from the Home Office. Confidence, integrity of government, vital trust between civil servants and ministers, civil servants sign up to Official Secrets Act, yeah like they could work without signing it.
By questioning this we are impugning the integrity of the independent police. Hoon is just so wrong, this is the man who has made his career from taking this country into Iraq. I believe he was Defence Minister when we attacked a sovereign state.
If there is a leak from a ministry, damaging to the national security then it must be investigated, yeah but who decides the national security. This is so undemocratic, an MP must be free. The police are operationally independent, strong support for those who are to protect us. The timing of all this is a disgrace. However, we must not disturb Gordon because he is probably too busy watching some TV programme and getting ready to write a letter to the contestants congratulating them on their achievements.
Aaghhh, I continue to both very sad and angry.
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I wonder what the parliamentarians from the same era as Lenthall, who fought for many of our democratic rights, would have made of:
1. 42 / 90 days
2. ID Cards
3. Arrest of opposition politician
4. Secret trials proposal
5. Backdoor attempts to get a DNA database
6. The application of terrorist laws against the public and other countries
7. Dodgy dossiers to justify war
8. Track record of the application of ASBOs
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If leaking information is a crime what about all of the spin. The emergency budget was leaked to the point that there were no surprises, should not the PM and Chancellor also be arrested... They were surposed to anounce the information to parliament first. They are in contempt of parliament.
The government cannot cannot have the unique right to leak favourable information, the opposition should be able to hold this sleazy government to account for things that go wrong, this is their duty to the electorate and right as members of parliament.
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Sounds like we need the army on guard at the Houses of Parliament, to tackle these wayward Police officers.
I find it incredulous the security officers there didn't eject these Police officers, by force if need be. When you hear both sides of the House up in arms...something is seriously amiss with our country. And you are right to draw parallels with previous times...it is how the last civil war started.
A very black day for democracy in this country.
As for Brown and Co saying they knew nothing...sure!
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Nick
Ive just thought of another question you could ask... you know seeing as your a bit short of ideas like....
Why was no one arrested for leaking David Kellys name as the source for the BBC story that Downing Street "sexed up" the dossier on Iraq's weapons.
After all it resulted in a mans death.
I know this is isnt as serious embarrassing nulabour but even so its quite serious.
Dont you think?
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Well it seems to me that there are some very real questions that need to be asked of the government. What has happened is absolutely appalling in a supposedly democratic country. I have yet to see or hear any evidence that any member of this government really cares about it.
Our rights and liberties are being steadily eroded by a government that at best seems clueless on these issues - and I am a member of the Labour party. The press is currently failing us as badly as the parties and the police are.
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#71 badger
Like I said, "with some exceptions".
I've never seen a "balanced" thread on here.
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#34 Eatonrifle
"Desperate attempts to force you to sing from the same hymn sheet as the reactionary right wing on here is sickening. Just rise above it as usual."
If you think the Tony Benn & the LibDems are "the reactionary right wing", you're even more in need of medication than CEH.
NuLab's Politburo have dragged a once left-wing party well to the right of the "official" Tories on civil liberties.
Time for another "What's Left?" campaign I think. Butskellism was positively socialist by comparison with the economic policies of "Duff" Gordon & Capt. Darling.
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Nick, so the govt leaned on you previously, and is still breathing down Auntie's neck, I expect.
I forgive your circumspection!
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Just a thought Nick
If this new law is going to apply to the opposition and its moles, then surely it should also apply to government who are forever leaking stories to the press.
Perhaps Nick could put together a full list of all the leaks he has known about and had info on, cross reference it with fellow hacks, and make a full complaint to the COUNTER TERROR TROPPERS.
Just think we could have half the house facing life imprissonment.
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jim@16
"What I think it does however do is underline the independence of the police from the politicans,"
Just heard Geoff Hoon on Radio 4 Question Time tonight say the same thing. The audience hooted with laughter. So, sorry, that angle isn't going to work.
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Re "maggiemaggiemaggie"
"Would these fools have held Mr Green for 42 days given half a chance."
If they had we would never have known; he simply would have been "unavailable"
---
The Home Office has, obviously, been closely involved with The Met in this investigation from the outset; now it has unfettered access to all the confidential paper and electronic data and records belonging to a senior member of the opposition. Talk of "fishing trip" ... ?
No matter what the outcome of this incident, a very clear message has been given to those concerned in the direction this country is heading, whistle-blowers and "independently-thinking" MPs.
We have all been warned.
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As an ex Labour Party member for over 20 years (til 2001), I want answers. Now we will see if there are any Labour MPs left with backbone or principles. Any who don't condemn this arrest should be ejected at the next election.
Let's face it, if leaking were a crime, many ministers and ex ministers would be in gaol already. Especially Lord Voldemort, recently returned from foreign parts.
I expect people like Paul Flynn, Bob Marshall Andrews and Jeremy Corbyn to speak up.
The Augean stable must be cleansed.
KGB* (UK) must be eliminated as a political force.
*Klunking Gordon Brown
There may be humour in this, but it's not a joke. I'm in deadly earnest. My great grandfather was arrested in December 1938 in Kiev and never seen again. He was executed in secret one month later. My mother came as a refugee to the UK after the war. She was grateful to Britain for taking her in. She earned her citizenship cleaning toilets in hospitals and loved her adopted country with a passion. My English father gave up six years of his life in WWII to fight against tyranny. He was wounded and shellshocked. We must stand up for our freedoms or we shame our forbears.
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#48 balhamu
Just occasionally you make a valid point, but to suggest that this is all a plot by the "official" Tories is past a joke. I can understand that from party loyalty you might be unable to concede that the LibDems and other left of centre parties exist, but to ignore Tony Benn's input you are being plain silly, as the poll ratings will soon show.
They were already down again before this story broke - see the Grauniad's 'Tories extend poll lead amid pre-budget report doubt' - but when even the Grauniad's main Politics section makes no defence of Brown and neither Saints Michael White nor Polly Toynbee leap to his aid, then surely even you would admit that "Duff" Gordon has another big problem of his own making here. Wouldn't you?
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48 Balhamu
Following on from our previous conversation, regarding membership of political parties - according to Wikipedia:
"As with the Labour Party, membership has long been declining and despite an initial boost shortly after Cameron's election as leader, membership resumed its fall in 2006 and is now actually lower than when David Cameron was elected in December 2005.
However, the Conservative Party still has more members (about 290,000) than the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats combined (around 200,000 and 70,000 respectively).
However, the party does not publicly provide verifiable membership figures, making this difficult to confirm."
So who knows!?
Now I will get referred by "Darth Fool" unless I write something on topic as well... so:
Nick has prompted me to look up this chap Lenthall. He seems like a very honourable and brave man. Time to do some Googling.
Political Party membership
P.S. I was mainly persuaded to join the Conservatives by David Davis. He clearly had friends across the political spectrum who were interested in civil liberties and the respect of parliament (Tony Benn and Rita Chakrabait from Liberty).
David Davis is also friends with Alistair Campbell - oh well - if there is someone with little respect for parliamentary process that is he.....
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The rotten NuLabour project cannot be allowed to spin [pardon the pun] out of control.
Bloggers, we must unite under the banner of Freedom! NuLabour have already destroyed our economy!
WE MUST TAKE TO THE STREETS!
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#75 onanmcfly
you wrote
"Controversial decisions like this are not taken on a whim"
On the contrary something of this scale of idiocy has all the hallmarks of a gigantic foul up.
Any politician with even the very rudiments of a brain would not have failed to understand the effects something like this would have. Love 'em or loath 'em they all want to be liked so you vote for them and things like this they just don't plan.
My take is simple and I believe plausible:
Minister during a meeting expresses annoyance at the continual un-sanctioned leaks from his department. (yes you could argue unwritten intent but I suggest off the cuff remark)
Cabinet Secretary feels duty is to uphold the standards of the civil service and asks police to investigate.
Police chasened by the cash for honours debacle play it strictly by the rule book and follow the enquiries wherever they lead.
Police (The Met) for it is they, to avoid being caught, as under Ian Blair, been possibly accused of acting favourably to a particular party now the head of the MPA is of the opposite hue decide what they need to do without having any discussion with a political figure. Hence they come up with a really daft political plan - had they checked with a politician no doubt the folly of the plan would have been obvious.
And so the PR disaster unfolded. No Government minister was told - lest the Met be charged with interference especially as an opposition figure was the target.
You might even look at the notification of Michael Martin some sensible attempt by police bound by the book of elliciting the Lenthall response (and sigh of relief all round).
Boris as MPA chair (the Mets oversight) had to be informed as obviously they had some understanding what would follow - why did Boris not say - you realise what this will mean or perhaps he did and they ignored it - sure Boris could be asked.
Did Boy Dave do the same or was it at 13.59 they were all told just before the van doors opened.
I take this is a plausible scenario which requires nothing more than a casual remark and the following of the rule book.
In furories of such a scale it has been my experience that they are rarely planned to the detail you give them credit for but follow a predictable route which was just not thought about before the initiation.
Is it what actually happened - who knows and perhaps we shall find out, perhaps we shall not.
One thing is certain - even if the actual facts are fully known they are a number of people who will prefer to believe something more complex and sinister occurred.
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#60 Attersee
"And all the time maintaining the look of an Easter Island statue that's just been told a huge flock of seagulls is on its way to the area."
Perfect. Thank you for providing something that made me smile on a grim day for democracy.
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The censorious Labour supporters are coming out of the woodwork again. You won't silence us! We will resist Jackboot Jacqui's Police State whatever it takes!
DNA databases, the arrest of opposition politicians on trumped up charges... How can you support this shameful erosion of our liberty? You have sold your soul.
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The chances that have allowed Clunking Fist into supreme office in this country have led us to the greatest threat to the British state for some considerable time. The police action, which could not conceivably have been launched without ministerial approval at the highest level, has taken viscious, stalinist and bullying conduct to new depths - unconstitutional conduct. I would urge anyone with knowledge of Stalin's conduct to publish it. Their statutory protections may not be assured with this man in command but I cannot believe that honour is completely dead in this country.
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Not much from CEH on this blog, unless he is too busy blowing the lid on corrupt tory MPs!!!!!!!!!
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Nick
Still a bit light on content (actually content free)...
Do you have anything to say about what happened, rather than how your blog was received?
You obviouly can't say any thing critical of the situaiton labour have led us to - how about filling in with something on mandleson and oleg?
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Summarising the views on here:
Civil Servants, who sign a contract promising to follow the Official Secrets Act, can disregard this providing they only leak to opposition politicians (who are the arbiters of what is and isn't in the national interest to pass onto the media or any individual of their choosing).
This doesn't just apply to isolated 'public interest' leaks. Opposition politicians can cultivate (or even hire) civil servants who serially forward on every document they come across. An arrangement where civil servants are being paid by opposition politicians to leak documents is perfectly acceptable and should not be investigated- indeed it is to be encouraged (the public have a right to know).
Opposition politicians should be encouraged to use the information in whatever way they see fit - hide it, pass the policy off as their own and criticise the Government for 'stealing' their own policy from the Conservatives (e.g. HMT Inheritance Tax plans), use it to embarrass the Government - whatever they see fit.
It is unclear if this also applies to agents of foreign governments.
This only holds in time of Labour Government (which hopefully will never, ever happen again).
It's the only way of explaining the uproar on here (and elsewhere) that the police have had the temerity to investigate the systematic breaking of the Official Secrets Act, and what appear to be serious allegations.
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So 80 got referred,
It drew a comparison on leaks with the David Kelly affair, which was caused by a government leak, they leaked his name to the press didnt they?
It led to a mans death.
Nick, could perhaps ask why there was no investigation into this leak.
It was after all more much important than merely causing a little embarrassment to the Home Sec.
Just a thought
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re: 85, carrots
Just think we could have half the house facing life imprissonment.
I can hardly contain my glee
At the thought that I may see
Brown behind bars
And Hoon seeing stars
And Jacqui wailing like a banshee!
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Hey moderators put 42 back.
It wasn;t nice but there was nothing off topic or blatantly offensive in it. It was just sad.
It may not be nice and we may not agree but well hoist....
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
There is no parallel whatsoever between this and the cash-for-honour case.
Here it is about intimidating an opposition MP from disclosing public information that may damage the government.
I think one of the reader who posted here summed it up nicely:
At 1:22pm on 28 Nov 2008, West_London_Willy wrote:
"Cash for Honours revolved around a criminal investigation, where allegations of criminal misdeeds were being assessed.
Fact: bringing information into the public domain, when such information should have been there in the first place, is the JOB of the Opposition, and is NOT a criminal offence.
All this on a day when Sir Ian Blair is telling us that you should keep "Politics out of Policing", as well!"
Questions:
How can the Home secretary not be notified in advance?! And if she didn't, why on earth not?! This is about the arrest of a Shadow minister!
Where was the police when Brown used to weave Tory "secret" info around the House - "public interest" I think was the term he used.
Boris got it spot on as well: it is of utmost irony that anti-terror officers were used against a democratically elected representative when terrorists committed atrocity elsewhere.
Last but not least - where was the speaker when the MP's office was ransacked? He has done what no other preceding speakers had managed - stabbing his own member in the back!
P.S. Nick, I thought your previous blog was disgracefully bias. Have you even read what other papers and people have been saying?! This is, without a doubt, the biggest dent in democracy for a long time.
And the BBC is shamefully taken side:
Where is the "Have your say" section for this article? Or is the BBC afraid to be told off the the "powers that be" in No.10 when everyone from all background and sides seems to think NuLabour is the new ZaNu in Zimbabwe?
Thank God we didn't let that monstrous 42-day detention bill passed through the Lords!
My suspicion that BBC will be utterly confirmed once I see that this post is pulled.
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I think that 'comparing Green with Churchill might just have hinted that I saw the gravity of the situation' was probably just a little bit too far left of impartiality to get you off the accusation of being a New Labour stooge, Robinson.
It's a bit late for you to attempt the light touch, you need to tell the truth, just for a change.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
But who sanctioned the arrest? SOMEONE in high office must have.
The Met says it started the investigated after prompting from the cabinet office. From whom?
Jaqui Smith didn't know about it in advance, but Boris Johnson did... under what circumstances would the mayor of London outrank the Home Secretary who should (in theory at least) be the head of the Police?
Not only Boris, but other members of Parliament were informed in advance too, but not the home secretary. How can that happen? Is she incompetent, lying, deliberately asked not to be consulted or just not in the procedural loop?
I would say (rather cynically) to MPs: welcome to the world of ordinary citizens, the majority of whom do not trust the Police. It took a while, but here's the result of giving them more and more unfettered power.
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You won't silence us! We will resist Jackboot Jacqui's Police State whatever it takes!
DNA databases, the arrest of opposition politicians on trumped up charges... How can you support this shameful erosion of our liberty? You have sold your soul.
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There was a time when the sancitity of the commons was of importance. That was at a time when the aims of MPs was something to do with the common good.
Whistleblowing and the right of politicians to challenge fellow MPs is a vital part of our democratic freedom and must be protected. But most of the 'whistleblowing' is purely of a party political nature and in no way of public interest (sells newspapers and keeps hacks in ajob) and it is an insult to Churchill's involvement which was indeed of national interest.
The antics of politicians of all hues in recent years shows that they have abused the sanctity of the commons using it for baser purposes. Our future is indeed in peril.
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re: 96, tenmaya
Remove "the lid on" from your post, and swap "Tory" for "Labour", and I think that's pretty much spot on.
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Fortunately 'politics' is not a self-contained and mutually exclusive entity, so other facets of opinion will exist, and Nick does not have the pulse of all sides at all.
The 'sanctity' might also be the mock-sanctimoniousness at having the cosy political enclaves of institutions breached by a small matter of upholding the Laws of this country, through the police, which I hope no one considers themselves immune from, or 'above', not even Tory Shadow ministers.
Speculation may well drift onto whether David Cameron is 'accessory' to what is taking place and not above the Law either, even when he Isn't breaking the Highway code and saying 'sorry' every time he rides wrong way up a one-way-street. O-w-s is probably the best description of the shadow cabinet's racist stance regarding immigration, but I suppose we will be regaled with a tale about Protecting the country from the ravages of the Extreme Right, should the BNP membership tip over one percent of the electorate!
Maybe that is another side of political opinion which Nick Robinson will not be bringing himself to report upon with such gusto. It is salutary that people should watch their step regarding the political liberties they take. Last week it was George Osborne playing fast and loose with the fortunes of a jittery economy. This week - the Race card rearing its ugly head once more? Can't wait.
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How come no questions were asked of the Speaker's agreement to the searching of a MP's office? Where was his judgement? How come no pre-prepared statement is released from him? Surely he must have known how much stir this would cause?
This is the biggest stab in the back I could think of for a long time.
P.S. What is going to happen to all the "confidential files" that aren't related to the government? Let's say, some Tory strategies for the forthcoming year. Is the police going to pass it onto Jacqui "nothing to fear if nothing to hide" Smith?
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#88
Thank you for articulating the essentials of this issue.
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#92
Sounds like the run-up to Thomas a Beckets murder!!
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Threatening democracy? Oh please.
Let's leak out everything, then.
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You won't silence us! We will resist Jackboot Jacqui's Police State whatever it takes!
DNA databases, the arrest of opposition politicians on trumped up charges... How can you support this shameful erosion of our liberty?
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isnt it about time you BBC journalists stood up and be counted ? for god's sake ask this discredited government some searching questions, hold them to account instead of just being their conduit when they wish to "leak".......... ask the speaker questions, find out which magistrate signed the order, ask the home office why counter terrorism police were used, find out who instigated this affair....come on earn your salaries as journalists and find out the answers.......
It is no coincidence this happened just as the Met commissioner was leaving.....'blair's revenge" i think, but no doubt with the connivance of this rotten government. Journalists are the upholders of our freedoms do not let us down.
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Re #22: One of the beauties of the offence of "misconduct in a public office" is that it's a common law offence, so no question of statutory definition applies.
It dates back to the eighteenth century, at least.
It was once assumed that corruption had to be involved. That was so in all the 18th and 19th century cases; but in 1979 Lord Widgery ruled that that had been just an "accident of circumstance" every time, and the courts do not now require evidence of corruption.
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Aside from the appalling treatment of Damian Green, this is just one more example of how the disgusting behaviour of this morally bankrupt government is ruining our country.
There is a recurring pattern here:
1)Mandelbrown and co do something outrageous and unprincipled.
2) When there is an outcry the first line of defence is to lie - or, at best, mislead - about any wrongoing/failure/knowlege and claim that their opponents are being politically opportunistic and acting contrary to the public interest.
3) If they are actually caught in flagrante they shed a few crocodile tears, keep their heads down until the fuss blows over, then emerge to be given a better job. No-one is ever guilty, no-one is ever punished. no-one ever accepts responsibility.
After 11 years of this and a constant stream of lies to cover up everything from immoral wars to economic incompetence, this ethos has now been embraced at all levels of government. Worse still, we seem to have become completely impotent in the face of the constantly escalating level of NuLabour cynicism.
We now take it for granted that our councils will use anti-terrorist legislation to spy on their householders; that children will die in Harringey and no-one will be held accountable; and that the police will continue to hold Parliament and the rest of the population in contempt - just as they have done ever since they sold out to become the provisional wing of NuLabour. This cynical template is now so widespread and well-established that it has infected every tier of society and people such as Brand/Ross seem genuinely surprised when the public is actually incensed enough to demand that some kind of action is taken against them.
In an environment such as this, just how badly will this government have to behave before we wake up and take notice? Will anyone really be surprised when Mandelbrown decide that the international situation is so serious that it justifies the suspension of normal democratic processes - such as elections? Moreover, will enough people really care sufficiently to do something about it?
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re: 118, alphablogwort
Well said.
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60 Attersee
You should write on here more often - that was very funny.
Unless I write something on topic, the blogosphere's very own "techno-Himmler" will refer me to the moderators - so:
Nick - there are a lot of questions to ask on this topic of arresting MP's.
Personally I'm interested in government plans to oust beneficiaries of the Treasury mole - who must now know more than we about Gordon's mismanagement of the economy.
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Good God Robinson,
Have you ever thought of becoming a journalist?
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"there is fury at the police's violation of the sanctity of the Commons"
Maybe that's how they see it in westminster, but I don't think that's how most people see it.
I think the public fury is aimed at Brown/Smith who most likely sanctioned it (for Brown/Smith to feign ignorance just compounds their vile actions), and the fury is not because it's against the sanctity of the commons but that the government used terrorist legislation to try and hide what's in the public interest to know and that Brown/Smith wanted to terrorise an innocent man for simply doing his job.
People aren't angry because he's an MP, they're angry because Brown and Smith have acted like the ss.
There are parallels Nick, but it's not turner/blair, the parallel is clearly Dr David Kelly.
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Euripedy-do-da Euripedy-dad
Those whom the gods would destroy
They first make mad ....
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No36. Holding the government to account is fine, if it is done without being, it is alleged involved in criminal activity. It would be interesting to find out what proportion of the population is familiar with the idea of The Separation of Powers.
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cameron did not object when the police
were investigating blair,levy,and downing street for twelve months for nothing,
let the police do their job,
cameron protest too much i fear ,he shows how green he is ,tory party need a leader
not a howler
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Nick, After your half-hearted apology I have a suggestion - use some of your well-honed journalistic skills and contacts (if they've not been arrested or threatened with 42 days detention) and find out
1) Why the Met thought it correct fit to inform Cameron, Johnson and Martin but not Brown, Smith or another senior government minister.
2) Who in government was informed - and why didn't he/she inform his/her masters.
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I mangled the Speaker Lenthall quote some eight hours ago on Iain Dale's Diary. The comparison is clear - a glaring breach of Parliamentary privilege by the executive. It is a shame that our current Speaker did not show the mettle of his predecessor.
This violates the sanctity of Parliamentary privilege. MPs should expect their contacts and investigations to be utterly confidential. Some of these may be sensitive or concerned with the State. Otherwise, how can constituents have the confidence to contact them? This is the action of a totalitarian secret police force, like the Stasi. The Met are completely unaccountable. The new commissioner should be sacked over this.
I read a post elsewhere: "if the Home Secretary knew about this, we live in an authoritarian state, if she didn't then we live in a police state". Sums it up.
The erosion of our rights and liberties is extremely worrying - what can they do after this, scrap elections? If it continues, some sort of direct action will be needed - mass protests, general strike, civil disobedience, seizing government buildings. This has been said tongue-in-cheek by others but it is turning serious.
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#98 balhamu
I withdraw my post #89. If you actually believe what you've written there then you are as much in need of medication as CEH.
If the inaction of Speaker Martin doesn't disgust you then you are no believer in democracy, even in its deeply flawed Westmidden quasi-manifestation. As such, government by UKIP would be preferable, let alone any of the parties in Westmidden "by right".
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Ah now I get it. According to the Tory blogging mafia MP's get to make laws but are immune from them (if Tory of course all labour MP's should be hanged after a quick flogging of course).
The M.P.S. have made clear who they informed, I wouldn't trust a goverment statement but let's try and work on the basis that the police wouldn't directly lie on this scale and did not inform ministers.
MP's get immunity when on the floor of the house to protect free speach, and this is right although it has been abused. They cannot expect to have immunity from the police.
Particularly as they haven't exactly been bastions of virtue (irrespective of party).
If there is a case to answer he should answer it. IF there is no charge the file should be passed to an independant body to judge whether the arrest was warrented.
Cameron and co should let the process take it's course and then have the high ground afterwards if, as they state, there has been no suspect activity.
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Latest Guardian/ICM poll shows Conservatives have extended lead over Labour to 15 points - and this before the news of the Nu-Stasi regime's latest antics.
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Gordon Brown has been trying to draw parallels between himself and Obama recently.
I can't see Obama either having opposition politicians arrested or saying "it was purely a police matter" - after the sanctity of parliament has been trampled over.
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"The Police today arrested the Prime Minister and confiscated all his papers and computers on suspicion that he might have leaked some truthful information at some time in office. A spokesman said it was highly unlikely that anything truthful was ever leaked from his office. The PM said he was flabberghasted that anyone should think he ever leaked anything truthful and that he had no idea he was about to be arrested, or he would have prepared his answers beforehand. The leader of the opposition said he knew about the arrest, as did the rest of his party the Lib Dems and all Labour MPs - but he doubted that anything truthful had been leaked. He said he'd never known Gordon to give away the truth at any time."
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#96
Don't worry about CEH - most people these days see the name and read the comments for light relief!
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This is still spineless journalism of the first degree. How big does an attack on democracy have to be before you slide off the fence? Trying to stop civil service leaks is one thing, arresting an MP (of any party) in this way has to be a step way too far.
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118 Alphablogwort
Hear, Hear.....
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There is a huge response to this in response to your blog. Why is it not posted as a topic on Have Your Say.
How can the Police arrest an opposition MP and enter the House of Commons without consulting with any member of the government?
Either the police are out of control and answer to no authority, or the government were consulted.
I know what I believe.
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You cannot compare a flunkey of the PM with an MP. If the Police can arrest MPs and search their offices in Parliament at will because the MP has embarrassed the government it is the end of democracy as we have known it in the UK.
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Why are people so surprised about this?
This is exactly what happens when the media becomes the govt mouthpeice.
The arrest of an aide is most definitely not the same thing as arresting an elected member of parliament in opposition, who is actually doing his job and it's about time you started doing yours Mr Robinson.
The police did not act in this manner without authorisation, someone has decided they are above the constitution
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nick
You have seriously underestimated the gravity of the situation. This breaches all international standards of human rights protection. We are fast approaching a police state.
you are guilty of a 'crisis what crisis' response
The police run this country and I say this as a labour supporter with a background in human rights law
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Hasn't Ian Blair rather proved the point that Boris made?
I bet most Londoners are now breathing a sigh of relief that a man who's willing to bash down your door, have 9 officers ransack your house, and drag you out for a 9 hour interrogation just because you disagree with the government line are all now fully behind Boris even if they weren't before.
My guess is that Boris is now saying (with everyone agreeding) - "see, told you so; most definitely not the kind of man you want in charge of the biggest police force in the country."
I guess we should be thankful for small mercies; at least they didn't just shoot Green 5 times in the head at point blank range, reloading in-between, without any warnings.
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This blog obviously provides us with the opportunity to argue a point but it is noticeable that the PM's public questions/comments site has still been withdrawn. At a time when the people need to make their views apparent, GB shows his contempt by refusing the public its right to make its voice heard. But then having spoken on behalf of the world when commenting about Mumbai why should we be surprised that we have opposition MPs arrested and direct public comment is prevented!
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An MP's position is a resposible job ,I like to think that all MP's have a responsible attitude to their work?
Jeez, Does David Davis think his position as an MP is to sanction leak's to gain political favour?
Wow! Davis just goes on wasting tax payers money by calling silly elections and scantioning irresponsible leak actions.
Get real people, David Davis Called a by-election to protest against the 42 days detention, jeez, the bill hadn't even been ratified by the second house, talk about irresponsible action.
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Nu-Labour want the Eye of Gor-Don on us at all times...
We must vote NuLab out so that they can't watch us 24 hours a day. The arrest of Damien Green proves that NuLab will go to any lengths to keep the truth hidden from us.
They must be voted out, or Britain will perish in flames.
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"Boris got it spot on as well: it is of utmost irony that anti-terror officers were used against a democratically elected representative when terrorists committed atrocity elsewhere."
Boris has seen it all before: he took a keen interest in the case of a relation of mine who was arrested under terrorism laws for having a Swiss Army penknife in his locked briefcase in the boot of his car, while driving to work.
The ensuing 15 months of misery for my family were extended by the CPS who 'coincidentally' cancelled no less than 2 of his court appearances, one due to take place on the 11/7/2005 and a further hearing on the 22/7/2005.
We could only draw the conclusion that the two real terrorist outrages might have made the Met police look somewhat foolish in the pursuance of the matter. He was finally acquitted of all charges in March 2006.
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Of course, another way of looking at this is:
a) The Lib Dems and Tories are in touch with what's going on
b) The government is completely out of touch
So far I'm not seeing any inconsistency from day to day parliamentary business.
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I think it is outrageous that David Normington should precipitate this police action without reference to his paymasters. Who is running this country? It would appear not to be this Labour Government. This is just further evidence of the emerging police state where not even the elected government is consulted! I read 1984 as a kid and I thought it was science fiction - now it is becoming reality!!!!!
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Tories extend their lead to fifteen points.
So long Nu-Lab, you won't be missed.
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Many Nazi officials stated after the war they were only doing their job.
I hope that is not the path we are going down.
Somehow i fear it is.
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No wonder moles leak information to opposition politicians like Damian Green
It must be infuriating dealing with not only this mendacious government, but also the critically benign state broadcaster the BBC.
There have been cross party calls for a report concerning Baby P that Ed Balls is trying to suppress.
The story was reported far later and painted in a far more positive light late Friday on the BBC than compared to an earlier Times article:
BBC comment
The Times article, which appeared in print on Friday, also noted the following key points:
1. Richard Thomas, The Information Commissioner has backed disclosure of the report
2. Ed Balls had previously tried to stop opposition MP's from reading the report. Wheras the BBC report is written as if Ed Balls has done the right thing by presenting the report for opposition MP's to review.
3. Richard Thomas says Ed Balls is twisting things for his own ends
The Times report:
The Times article
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Nick,
This is real,it's not some thrilling novel full of plots/twists/subplots, etc.
It affects you as much as all of us.
For G*ds sake man, go out into the real world, those who aren't on the governments payroll, or lost in their own little world of dumbed down tv (soaps/game shows,etc) are VERY ANGRY & VERY SCARED.
THIS IS REAL, IT'S ACTUALLY HAPPENING.
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#102
I'm rewriting this hoping it will be politically correct and not banned again. I'm angry. Angry that a decent, English born MP should be held for nine hours by anti-terrorist police. As I mentioned in an earlier post, on another forum, if he had been from an ethnic minority he could have screeched "Discrimination" and been awarded hundreds of thousands of tax payers' money. Whilst these specialised police were wasting their time detaining and checking out his computer and papers, it is possible that British-born terrorists were commiting atrocities in Mombai. I say 'possible' since it has not yet been confirmed. Would not these dedicated police personnel have been better employed checking out these youths and young men who travel in and out of Pakistan quite frequently?
The second reason why I am angry, is that it is only through whistle-blowers that we the poor citizens obtain information. Baby P is a case in point, Balls was reluctant to release news to the public. Then there is the schoolteacher. Both schoolteacher and social worker who blew the whistle got the sack. Will we now only know whether British born citizens were amongst the terrorists only when some other brave soul blows the whistle?
Many of my blogs have been referred today. I hope I'm not to be gagged too.
But it has!!!! Why? Is it because I've let the cat out of the bag? No, can't be.
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117. EricJT
"Re #22: One of the beauties of the offence of "misconduct in a public office" is that it's a common law offence, so no question of statutory definition applies"
One can only wonder why the former deputy PM Prestcott wasn't arrested for "misconduct in a public office" with
Ms Temple
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These topics relate to the silencing of freedom/democracy, yet lots of replies seem to be getting moderated out of existence for no valid reason, many more than normal.
Ironic, isn't it?
That over-moderation also proves the very points that all the moderated-out-of-existence replies were making.
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125. davidwolves2003
Draper has conscripted some more teenybloggers I see
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Nick,
could the BBC please repeat the comment made by a very young Gordon Brown with regard to leaks. The grin on his face was just so natural, like the cat that had got the cream. The Newsnight report was brilliant for that alone.
I do not trust Gordon Brown. There is something I regard as being seriously flawed in his character, I do not think that his father would be very proud of him. Not proud at all, in fact if I had acted the way that Gordon has been, then I think that if my father was still alive, he would be ashamed of me. Sometimes I am glad that my father is not alive to see all this.
I wonder what tales Gordon tells his children as they go to sleep, what deeds he has done, how proud they should be of him. I would give up now Gordon, you are not a very good father, if this is an example which you wish to set your children. You are meant to be our Prime Minister, well shame on you Gordon, shame on you.
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I just ask this question because it's been bothering me all afternoon and evening ... in 1642, the King attempted to arrest 5 MPs because he believed they were plotting against him... yesterday, the police arrested an MP because they thought he might be involved in gaining access to secret information. .. both were disgracefull actions .... but supposing the police gained information that an MP might be involved in terrorist activities. Would the searching of his/her office and home be ok then ?
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Oddly enough, only a few days ago, didn't Nick tell us that he and Peston were recipients of a government leak about the PBR a few days before it had even been announced in the Commons?
"This fits in with what both I and the BBC's Business Editor, Robert Peston were told in the few days before the PBR."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2008/11/vat_slip.html
They'll be knocking on your door next Nick ;)
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I agree with many that your previous post was a rather transparent effort to make the Damian Green arrest seem less serious. It's interesting that while you are making light of it through your blog, the BBC HYS doesn't bother raising this as a worthwhile topic of debate. Bird spotting is more worthwhile. Or MMR again...
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Post 88.
Hear hear.
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Interesting Green states he "emphatically did nothing wrong" he could have stated that he "emphatically did nothing illegal" why didn't he.
Wrong is subjective, illegal is far more clear cut.
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So the next time the house meets, we can expect some-one like Anne Widdecombe partly dressed as Quashi Modo and shouting sanctuary for tory MP's.
When will the go slow, do nothing mob, get around to asking the question why the police took this action.
As far as I'm aware, the police-force and all its members must not have any membership with a political party, so to tie this action too the government , is just plain
silly tory tripe and hype.
Hey! got a plan yet Cameron and co?
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We shouldn't be surprised that the Labour party have their critics arrested... It's not like it's the first time. Remember Walter Wolfgang at the 2005 Labour Conference?
The mask has slipped and Nu-Labour's true nature has been revealed again. It is horrible and poisonous.
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re: 154, getridofgordonnow
Excellent point. Pity Nu-Labour are too dumb to get it... No doubt they think they have the upper-hand.
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meanwhile... while everybody is concerned with the dastardly treatment meted out to Damian Green, the nauseating sycophant Milliband has been promising maximum support to the government of a preemptive nation that Britain will do anything it wants in the way of more killing and torturing of people going to weddings, schools, in their own houses or going about their business in the street.
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artistic@133
Excellent. ROFL
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Sorry, that should have been artistic@132
Still ROFL, hence mistake!
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If Damian Green has 'actually' done anything wrong or immoral, then I hope he fesses up and resigns immediately.
If, however, he is innocent - then there need to be some very, very serious questions asked of this government.
Personally I suspect the arrest is a cover, to allow bad news to be buried, so that Labour can try and stop the run of bad news stories in the media concerning Gordon's mismanagement of the economy - which had just started snowballing.......
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Well Nick, it seems to me that the public backlash to your last pathetic labour apologist blog has had an effect.
Are you finally coming round to the idea that the general public now realise the damage this government is doing to our once great nation?
How about you ask Gordon Mugabe who else he's going to have arrested.
Maybe the next step in his grand-numpty plan is just to lock us all up? Pity he didn't have enough brain cells to build some prisons while filling up the current ones with pesioners unwilling to pay above inflation rises in council tax.
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re: derekbarker
Yawn. Labour Party HQ wears you like a glove.
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Nick,
it is the time on Wednesday for MPs to show some guts, real guts. Bring down Gordon, don't let him go to the Queen. The Queens speech has already been given anyway, how much more indignity must be heaped on us by this appalling Scot.
Heseltine picked up the Mace. The revolution is close or is it all a sham, where is our democracy.
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156, T A Griffin (TAG)
2I do not trust Gordon Brown. There is something I regard as being seriously flawed in his character, I do not think that his father would be very proud of him"
Sorry TAG, The Gruadian are reporting Lord Meddleson as saying the world looks upon our Hero Gordon as another Moses!
I don't know whether to laugh or cry!
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Attersee@60
Wonderful writing. I can still picture the Easter Island statues. Respect!
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Nick,
am I surprised about what has happened to this MP? No! My son becomes more important every day, the use of injunctions to prevent free speech under the grounds of breech of contract.
Do we know how many injunctions there are preventing disclosures. Is there a list of banned people. I know that you do not allow breeches of court injunctions but how many are there and who are they against. They ought to be listed just like the names of the dead in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Nick
It is good that you acknowledge the anger your earlier piece generated. I'm not entirely sure you have homed in on the reason. In fact. you sound slighly bemused at the reaction.
The similarities to which you referred in the Turner case related only to the police methods in the earlier cases and are of no importance compared to the differences.
Green is an elected MP whose activities set out to challenge and expose the Government of the day in the public interest whilst Ruth Turner was unelected and working for the Government of the day in it's interests.
Your comparison with Churchill was more apt. Like Green, Churchill was elected and his actions aimed at challenging the Government of the day. You forgot to mention the crucial difference - Green was arrested, Churchill was not.
All of that came across as a clumsy attempt to distract from and down play the very significant departure from the past represented by the episode.
Couple that with your refernce to Tory rage as though only they were concerned, and it amounted to a very poor piece of work.
Incidentally, what are your thoughts on the "fact" that no Government Minister knew anything in advance though Boris, Cameron and the Speaker were all notified.
Are we now in the age of implausible deniabilty ? Can't our political masters be bothered any more to go to the trouble of at least attempting to come up with plausible deniabilty ?
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a big part of the problem here, stems from the difference in the way we can act and are treated, as opposed to pre 1997.
- there was always some spin applied to issues, but nothing close to the extent that we see today
- when opposition used to ask questions at PMQs for the most part it could have been about anything, now its completely stage managed and half as frequent
- pre 1997, an inquiry meant exactly that. findings were acted upon. these things cost money, in todays world, most of what they reveal is rejected unless it can be used for political advantage
- when a major event occurred, the review reported back to the commons for debate
- major policy was announced first in the commons, then debated
- important policies werent leaked to the media to gauge how people would react to it, before parliament got to hear of it
- if an incident occurred, the minister in charge of the department would come before the house to face questioning and debate
- the buck used to stop with the minister in charge of the department, major problems resulted in loss of job
many people i know are disillusioned and think the same approach happens regardless of which party is in charge, but the older of us know that running the country wasnt always how blair/brown have led everyone to believe!
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I believe that Malfeasance in Office is a possible charge against the Speaker or any minister if they had prior knowledge of this., and approved or did nothing.
If the commons has the courage, it can Impeach.
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Nick,
just to say the moderators have done well. I'm off to bed now because I am so tired, well done, Nite Nite. Sleep the sleep of the innocent, because I don't think that Gordon will sleep well tonight, not if he has any conscience left.
How is it that it has come to this, the revolution is closer than many think. Gordon cares not for the sanctity of life, so why should he have any for the commons. A few more names to read out on Wednesday, wilof course no PMQs again is there. Too much information may come into the public domain. Brown will probably have the stupidity to go on playing politics with national security if asked anything about Green, or we must await the results of the police inquiry into the case. Piffle.
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#136
"How can the Police arrest an opposition MP and enter the House of Commons without consulting with any member of the government?
Either the police are out of control and answer to no authority, or the government were consulted.
I know what I believe."
Yes, and neither case is acceptable. Either we have a Gestapo or we have a civil service out of control, not consulting their masters.
Have you seen the number of postings referred? The Thought Police have been busy.
The police could have waited until he left parliament.
I suppose all us bloggers will now be phone tapped.
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Looks like all the Moderators have gone to bed at 11:49.
Time now 00:32
Obviously this blog is not considered very important.
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I agree with EatonRifles and balhamu.
The Damian Green leaks are administrative noise. They're not even a scratch on the deliberate and gross misleading of parliament the Tories got up when they were in power. Comparing what I'd read with what I have firsthand knowledge of Labour are squeaky clean.
I also remember the wave of political hysteria in the 1980's which Frederick Forsyth capitalised on in his spy thriller 'The Forth Protocol'. The Tories took full advantage of that and Tory HQ and their online pals seem to be pulling a similar stunt today.
My main interest is seeing freedom of information improved so the line between what should be public and private, and what may be released or not be released by MP's is better drafted. Stuff that's useful should be out but not stuff that just fuels political and media trolling.
Generally, I try to keep one foot in the topic and stay polite but the Guido mob make that near impossible. You can't deal with people who just diss everything or make stuff up all the time. That's deliberate and they scream blue murder if they're called on it.
The Tory grandstanding in parliament and the grassroots campaign started by William Hague, talking down the fiscal stimulus and rubbish from the Guido mob are part and parcel of their campaign. The Toxic Tories are back and wrapping themselves in Web 2.0 doesn't make it any better.
Seen it all before. You're being played, Nick.
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I'm an American, but I think the earlier comment about a resignation or a vote of no confidence does not go far enough. Brown should be impeached for allowing this. This goes against the cornerstones of Parliamentary procedure. I urge Old Labour, Tories, Lib Dems and others to unite as one on this. Perhaps it will send a message to future PM's...and to Americans...
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#184
Hey! you stole my line Charles.
Funny how who the equilateral triade tories like shooting blanks.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
At what point do Labour MPs start to actually think there cannot be any confidence in the Speaker, Home Secretary, and ultimately the Prime Minister?
If the ministers were not told, why the hell not? Surely arresting any MP should be sanctioned at the very least by the Home Secretary. I cannot believe she was not aware, it is just not credible.
Nick - thanks for this second blog. You work in very tight boundaries, though I do wish you would push for truth rather than soundbites considering the Average Joe will believe you as an oracle. Strive next week to push this to find out the truth - which is all we ever want!
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157 - 183 all of these posts moderated, post 184 published, author CEH!.
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Nice cartoon in the Times, laughable, if it was not so serious.
I agree with previous posters - this signals the death knoll of Democracy.
After this and other events over recent weeks, my prediction is, Duff Gordon will move from the Brown Bounce back to the Flash Flop.
Duff Brown = Midas in reverse. Can the Country really afford him?
Call an election.
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Well done Nick! Don't let the show of mock support for your original stance from balhamu, Eaton Rifle and Charles deflect you from the right path. You have gone up in my estimation and it shows that you do in fact read these blogs and take account of them.
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184 CEH
'administrative noise'
The HO allows 5000 illegal immigrants to be registered for work in security. This is 'not fit for purpose' behavior.
The arrest of an MP and the search of Parliament cannot possibly have been done without the knowledge of the Home Secretary - if it was then her controls are non existent. She should resign immediately.
It now no longer matters what (if anything) what Green may have done. NuLab & the MPS have, by their incompetence, made them the story. All your bluster counts for nought.
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pat@159
That's an interesting question. No reason that I know of why they shouldn't search his home, but an office in Parliament should be a bit different. Theoretically, they should ask the Speaker and I would expect the Speaker to require proof of suspicions and then consult impartial constitutional lawyer, but I'm no expert. What do others think?
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sasha@180
That sound interesting. I wonder if impeachment of members of the party in power can work if it has to be voted on ....
Must do some research.
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#6 Economicallyliterate (and probably others, but this blog has a plethora of posters too tiresome to read)
"This post unlike the last one hits at the true crux of the matter which is the sovereignty of parliament."
A strange English concept "sovereignty of parliament".
You seem happy to have a bunch of politicians to exercise sovereignty on your behalf.
Under Scots constitutional law (and in almost every other country as well), the people are sovereign. It's a much more liberating constitutional concept than the servility of the English constitution.
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Hardwidge 184
Inuendo, misrepresentation, denunciation, "beating the man, not the argument" are the bullets of the modern political war, whichever side you are on.
Look at the PM in PMQs this week, selectively quoting two Tory MPs, not even full sentences, because the full sentences would have weakened the point he was trying to make. And look at the baying mob whipped up behind him.
Look as well at your own words in denouncing the counter-fiscal-stimulus argument. More open-minded people than you regard fiscal stimulus, particularly in the form we are about to witness, as a poorly argued, ill-thought out plan, and elsewhere on this blog have explained why quite reasonably cogently.
Sadly, we are approaching a time when politics will be trivialised to single sentences, maybe even single phrases, for fear of longer arguments being reflexively denounced simply for their length. Sadly, you seem to be part of the wind blowing things along in that direction.
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intresting that MP's apparently think they themselves should be above the statues they enact...
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Yes indeed Nick, why did the police feel the need to arrest Mr Green and by the way, it's not every day an MP is arrested, so, I would say what PJ wouldn't have went with this story?
O' is Cromwell in need of another wart, I think David Davis might be your man!
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I find the whole affair really quite frightening. The Government holds Parliament in contempt and launches all it's policies via media leaks, bypassing Parliament. When an Opposition MP obtains and makes public information that is in the public interest, he is arrested and his premises searched by anti-terror police.
Meanwhile, the press treat the incident as either a joke or an exciting chapter out of a Frederick Forsyth novel, not demanding action for an outrageous step to destroy democracy forever.
Back at the impotent Parliament, the Speaker authorises the bedrock of democracy to be sullied by a politicised police force.
Over at the BBC, barely any searching questions are asked - no matter how awkward and embarrased Jack Straw looks when stood next to in denial Jacqui 'Stasi' Smith.
Meanwhile, Tony Benn, Nick Clegg and David Cameron all condemn what has taken place. Diane Abbott says that it is inconceivable that the police acted without ministerial sanction.
Back in the populace, we have CCTV everywhere, the right to trial by jury eroded, detention without trial, millions of innocent people on a DNA database, biometric identity cards, all of our internet and email useage being compiled and mapped by the Government...
...Labour Party members who are pensioners get arrested under anti terror legislation. Iceland - the country - becomes a terrorist...
...our dustbins are being fitted with spying devices to check that we are not terrorists for wanting to send our kids to the nicest schools - kids who are then fingerprinted at school to take out a library book.
Where is this all headed? What can anyone do about it?
I really have no idea.
All I know is that I really am now scared - scared of Government and scared of police... particularly as I believe that most Britons are now too timid of their oppressors to say 'enough is enough'.
If this carries on, we'll have to escape to North Korea and apply for asylum.
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There comes a defining moment when the character of any corrupt government becomes crystal clear. Once that has happened, it is the duty of all those who believe in the values of a free, democratic, and fair society to stand up for them in whatever way they can. After this point, those who could make a difference - such as journalists like you, Nick - and who choose not to speak out become culpable for the evil that follows.
We have just seen the arrest of a member of the opposition by counter-terrorism police for doing his job and revealing information that was in the public interest. For this, he has been threatened with a charge that carries a life sentence in prison. This is the moment where we can see without the possibility of doubt what Gordon Brown's Government really stands for.
The choice is now clear - to speak out, to investigate, to ask the important questions and give airtime to the issues that matter, or to trivialise these milestone events, obscure the issues, and focus on what is happening elsewhere. It is dangerous indeed to see that overwhelmingly, decision-makers in the BBC are choosing the second option.
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Death of democracy! Freedom! Parliament! Police State! Stalin! Evil! Blah! Blah! Blah!
Come on guys, if this case is still on going, and I believe it is, how can we judge whether the Police acted incorrectly or not?
Do you really think we know all the details of the case and enough to make a truly accurate assessment?
When the details unfold, then make those decisions, don't allow this debate to degenerate into the usual political mudslinging or the importance of this issue will be lost.
Nick, please can we have less froth and a bit more incisive analysis!
I noticed on the Daily Politics, you made remarks to Andrew Neil that it was not the government who leaked the details of the PBR. Have there been whisperings about the police investigations into leaks? I think we would all like to know!
P.S Don't let the mob with torches, pitch-forks, blackberries and keyboards scare you.
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redsox @ 200. you miss the point. in this case MP's are above statute because the police don't have the right to enter the Commons and search an MP's office. this is the reason for the unprecedented reaction to Nick's blog. searching Damian Green's home, however, is argually another matter. in any event, no MP was placed under arrest for 9 hours during Cash for Honours or any other enquiry into the current Administration's misdeeds. Clearly this has Mandelson written all over it. Was he arrested when he lied over his mortgage application, I can't remember.
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To all the labour supporters who are blindly supporting this action:
Apart from the obvious obscenity of trying to justify the government terrorising an opposition MP for simply doing his job, there's this aspect too...
If your logic is correct, then the police should also have arrested Gordon Brown, king of leaks.
Green was just doing his job and bringing facts into the public domain which the public had a right to know, and which were plainly all in the public's interest to know.
Brown, on the other hand, made a point of leaking the stamp duty dithering and single-handedly destroyed the entire property market by doing so.
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#206
Getrid,
Look, it's a police matter, its on going so the SB wont make a statement.
Dont you think your being just a tad OTT, I mean there's one MP, not a whole bunch, well maybe not yet, being investigated. l
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Robinson do you know what is going on in London?
If it were a crime to speak out of turn in Commons or act like a cackling jackass there, the entire House would be in prison. If you don't agree, I suggest you watch the next PMQT. I hope that by now, when you do the same at the local pubs....you've learned when and how to duck.
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I'm just wondering if maybe on this occasion ministers really didn't sanction this totally unjustified police action, although that's not to say it wasn't politically motivated.
I think it's fair to say that certain elements within the Met are not on best terms with the Tories at the moment given the circumstances surrounding Sir Ian Blair's departure. Could this be someone's idea of a leaving gift? If the Met did act without consulting the Government or Speaker first then there needs to be an investigation into who made the decisions within the Met and why.
What I'm most surprised about is that the alleged offence committed by the home office official is a common law offence. Surely there needs to be adequate legislation to protect whistle blowers in public office who bring information of public interest to the attention of said public. Parliament must be able to hold Government to account; this is the duty of all MPs so how can this duty be deemed to be an illegal in some cases?
I urge MPs across the parties who have been speaking out against this insult to democracy to back their words with actions and introduce a Private Members Bill to protect whistle blowers in public office who act in the public interest. Let's put an end to this constitutional anomaly.
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In The King vs John Wilkes MP, 1765, it was decided that as he was a Member of Parliament, he was entitled to be free from arrest in all cases except treason, felony and actual breach of the peace. Re The arrest of D.G. being allowed as parliament was not sitting...a total exemption from arrest applies during the existence of the parliament to which the member was elected, and even after dissolution of parliament the privilege continues for 40 days. The question is whether this act counts as a felony? Does it? More telling here are the words levelled against Charles I " That, whensoever the King (i.e. in our case, the Police, acting as Her Majesty's Police Force) intends to make war against the parliament, it is a breach of trust reposed in him by his people." This is the crux of the matter. Has the State imposed itself on Parliament in such a manner as to lose the public's trust in the State? I would have thought that a member of Privy Council should in the ordinary pursuit of his duties be able to extract information and receive information from the Civil Service, covertly or overtly, as the Civil Service surely should be beholden first and foremost to Parliament and its Members, and surely, not to the Government alone? There is a crime of Contempt of the House - any act which has a tendency "directly or indirectly" to " impede or obstruct any member of the House from doing his duty...can be treated as contempt...even though there is no precedent for the offence". I am no lawyer, but I would have said that this member of the Privy Council was doing what we, the electors, expect him to do - his job - and the police action against him was indeed in Contempt of the House, if not in Law, then in spirit.
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Did anyone think it strange that this all occured on the last day of die-hard Labour activist Ian Blairs last day in office?
Nick ....care to do some digging?? Thought not!
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Nick
One further point are the police empowered to search the House of Commons with a search warrant? Surely Rex v Sir R F Graham-Campbell and others ex parte Herbert (1935) 1 K.B. p 594 applies to this case?
It is some time since I looked the case up but so far as I can recall it was concluded that the Magistrate had no power to order an investigation into how the house conducted itself.
REC
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Voters are left unimpressed by pre-budget report.
ICM poll in tomorrow's Guardian apparently puts Tory lead back up at 15%.
Latest ICM Poll in The Guardian shows Duff Gordon heading for the Flash Flop.
The Poll shows almost a third of people who voted Labour in 2005 agree that it is time for a change.
This was before the arrest of an opposition MP.
Wow - Things can only get better!
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You would have thought that even someone as blindly in thrall to the Labour party as derekbarker (207 et al) would be able to see how utterly devastating to British democracy (forget the Tories) the bahaviour of his beloved party is. And how devastating this is to Labour's reputation as a legitimate party of government.
In its abuse of the police, in its contempt for parliament and, ultimately, in its utter disdain for public freedom, it's become the worst - and most dangerous - government this country has ever known.
Derekbarker needs to choose his friends more carefully in future, lest he be tarred with the same brush - the "win-at-all-costs" political and moral bankruptcy brush.
Parliament is still bigger than the labour party. And it's parliament which represents the people, NOT this labour government.
Get that through your complacent skull if you really hope to make any kind of comeback at the next election (if we ever have it - this is Brown we're talking about).
Damian Green is now a symbol of FREEDOM in this country, not 'right' or 'left' politics: freedom. There is no way in the world that this regime's personnel are equipped to comprehend that development, which is why they are pretty much doomed.
And good riddance to the shocking abusers of the trust and the power we gave them. Derekbarker should share these sentiments if he really is a democrat and not just another paid troll.
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To ALL opposition Party MPs
IF YOU FAIL TO TAKE THE GOVERNMENT TO
TASK OVER THIS.
WE MIGHT ASWELL GIVE UP DEMOCRACY.
SORT IT!
OR BE MADE REDUNDANT.
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I still have no idea what Green is supposed to have "leaked" which wasn't of interest to the public.
The bits which seem to have been quoted seemed quitw "normal" information that should have been in the public domain anyway.
Did I miss something?
I'm still intrigued how major leaks - such as those reported by Peston and Robinson about financial matters that affect everybody - have gone unexamined.
Peston's leaked information moved markets. Who was the source?
The Budget is supposed to be "secret" until reported to Parliament.
If politicians don't like leaks, they should keep their mouths closed.
Of course, with Mandy back at work in the UK, this sort of stuff is likely to be on the increase.
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Delicious irony?
Parliament (both sides of the house) drafted and approved absolutely draconian anti-terrorist legislation that effectively took away all the rights of all citizens/subjects of this country.
Any tinpot official even remotely employed by a government organisation or local administrative centre can use this legislation to determine and control the absolute minutae of yanones life. Do not let a sheet of A4 paper accidently fall into the waste bin designated for plastic....!
To now have anti-terrorist police enter parliament and the domicile of an MP simply highlights what poor and heavyhanded legislation it was.
Parliament no longer knows/understands/comprehends what it is doing or the outcomes of its decisions.
Quite frankly the term 'Hoisted by their own Petard'. Applies. I am laughing my socks off.
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Comrades Brown, Smith, Darling and Brother Mandelson should now fall on their swords.........we know them to be consistant truth economists.....'fool some of the people all of the time'........BRING ON THE ELECTION.......NOW!!!!!!
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i'm sorry but in my humble opinion the idea that the police were off on a frolic of their own beggars belief. i think Smith and Brown are lying
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Well, Well after Duff Brown has played his Master of the Economic Universe trump card it looks like he has come out in a weaker position than when he went into it two weeks ago.
Whatever the twists and turns of the Damiam Green saga are, I predict, it will leave Duff in an even weaker position.
After all Duff Gordon = Midas in reverse.
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It looks like when it rains on Duff Gordon it really pours it down.
Here is an old skeleton in the cupboard that has come back to haunt him and NuLabour.
Evidence ‘proves' insufficient cabinet discussion of Iraq war legality
William Hague, shadow foreign secretary said:
I left NuLabour in 2003 because of the invasion of Iraq - the last straw. If the Tories put this, and scrapping ID cards, into their next manifesto I will lend them my vote at the next election.
One proviso - Do not put Lord Hutton in charge of the inquiry!
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The real question is why did the Speaker allow the police into Parliament?
If we accept Mr Brown's statement that he and other Ministers had no knowledge of the arrest the spotlight must fall on who gave the police permission to enter parliament. One way or the other the spotlight must fall on the Speaker for either allowing them in or not stopping them. We have only had silence from him. MP's need an answer.
Any thoughts Nick?
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I completely agree with traducer above (#219), both major parties were falling over themselves to pass draconian anti-terror laws with no consideration of what the actual consequences might be outside PR-world.
Additionally, I have noticed that some of the comments coming from MPs, most notably Tony Benn, imply that MPs are somehow above the law. If the occasional arrest of a no-name member is what it takes to bring them down a peg or two, them I'm all for it.
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One issue that has been inadequately discussed, is the massive transfer of power from parliament and the courts to the executive. This is seen most clearly in the field of taxation, where there is too much legislation by regulation and explanatory statement and the official view is that reasonable and fairness is what the taxman regards it to be, not what the courts have interpreted it as. This arrogance has been encouraged by government ministers often with limited understanding of their brief.
If you subscribe to the cock-up theory, then it is a direct consequence of this culture.
Shortly, many of the existing courts of first instance, across a wide range of areas such as immigration, tax etc. will be abolished and the first person to whom apeals should be addressed will be a colleague of the person whose decision is being appealed. This has caused distinct unease, but as usual has received scant debate other than in the professional press.
Let us hope that this astonishing drama will prompt a significant debate on the role of the executive within society and its relation to the makers of law (Parliament) and interpreters (the courts), roles, which all too often it usurps.
In 1649, the trial of Charles I established the principle that the law was superior to the Crown. In most civil law jurisdictions this is not the case, hence their need for a human rights convention. Part of this debate must therefore include the Human Rights act, which weakened the existing constitutional settlement and thus gave a dictatorial government and an inadequately controlled and increasingly politicised executive the freedom to behave and legislate in a manner that previously would have been regarded as unacceptable.
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Nick
Perhaps those MPs and the Media elements who are always supporting more Police "powers" etc have finally woken up to what they have really been supporting.
For far too long "Human Rights" and "Civil Liberties" have been as good as swear words for some MPs and newspapers. Ah well if some good has come of this business ....
Apart from that we have the Home Secretary Ms Smith an her Orwellian big brother database and ID cards to come. Perhaps those MPs who vote this stuff through will now hang their heads in shame.
For once the Conservatives would be justified in demanding the resignation of the Home Secretary.
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Wonder if and when we will ever go the way of Thailand. Can't be far off now.
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Both Speaker Martin and the Serjeant at Arms Jill Pay face a backlash from MPs, who argue that the raid was an affront to democracy.
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Well here are two more questions for you Nick;
Who made you feel that you should moderate the tone and content of your reporting on the Damien Green issue as a result of your earlier cash for honours work? and,
What outcomes did you feel were threatened if you had reported fully and objectively on the Damien Green investigation and arrest?
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This transcends party politics; important principles that check the power of the government are at stake here.
Those not grasping this need to learn about our constitution; as an unwritten one there is the constant threat of a dictatorship which is kept at bay by the powers of the Legislature to thwart the Executive. At its heart is a defiant pride over the sanctity of Parliament, where these guys can say/do pretty much what they like without fear of sanction from the Executive. That is why it matters that MPs can have exceptional freedom to scrutinise the Executive, including all matters related to leaks and more, because without that all the cards are held by the Centre.
Tony Benn understands this completely and is rightly outraged. MPs are NOT just ordinary citizens, they are the principal safeguard against a dictatorship. Undermining their freedom to act takes us closer to that terrible state.
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Is this not the Prime Minister who came to power with a promise to restore Parliament's central place in our democracy, this treatment of Damian Green should raise profound constitutional and historic questions.
Begs the question, what kind of democracy does Duff Gordon believe in.
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Michael Crick, in last night's Newsnight, said that this issue could damage the Tories because, according to Labour sources, other senior Tories had been receiving leaked information.
Is this normal Labour background chatter, or is it based on specific knowledge of ongoing police investigations? If the former, why report it? And if the latter then the lie is given to repeated ministerial denials that they had no prior knowledge of the Green arrest (or did the denials relate to knowledge of the Green investigation, I'm still not sure).
I have a scoop. All over the country millions of politically-motivated individuals are conspiring to vote out Labour at the next election. This threat to the New Labour, described by Tony Blair as the political wing of the entire British people, clearly endangers national security. The Met should act immediately.
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The BBC Have Your Say is as bad - I proposed a similar thread yesterday, got frozen out in favour of pro-MMR spin.
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The timing is important - we have a Parliamenty which regularly handicaps itself by its own law.
Parliament was prorogued on Thursday, ending that sitting. Until the Queen convenes it again, it isn't sitting, despite being in the worst economic crisis im living memory, and the cops made hay while the sun shines, as MPs aren't protected by Parliamentary Privilege.
The abuse of legislation involved is an attack on the nation's democracy, and suggests it's time to get rid of a few more than Ian Blair, for being short-sighted.
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The Tories have certainly milked this issue well. If they're not ganging up and bullying they're baiting the government and blaming it when it acts to deal with it. I've seen better politics in USENET than the way the Tories have acted over this faux freedom of information issue.
It's easy to get caught up in the language and hysteria of a tub thumping mob, and they keep the temperature as high as they can in the hope you'll crack. Forget right or wrong, it's all about what they want: they've got caught up in winning. It's a little mental, but there you go.
Polly Toynbee and Peter Mandelson suggest that Labour must find its own voice and develop its own inner harmony. That's true but a key step is to not take what the Tories say too seriously or get too worried about losing. It doesn't matter. Smaller goals and a little humour help.
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Yesterday's post was pathetic and today's is little better. If you want to draw an accurate parallel with Churchil, his remarks in 1945 that a socialist government could not sustain itself without some kind of 'Gestapo apparatus' while pilloried at the time, now seem chillingly accurate.
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When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
Martin Niemöller
They just came for our representatives, to suppress free speech. I may not share this MP's views, but I will defend to the death his right - and given his post, his respnsibility - to express them, and to express them, he must learn and understand the different viewpoints before him, however extreme. Exactly how many Fundamental and Human Rights have just been trampled underfoot?
On the other hand, the police also have a right to defend themselves. In fact, this is so serious they have not merely a right but a duty to explain themselves, and urgently - and that's something they are failing to do. In that failing is an utter contempt for the democractic system, with the judiciary interfering seriously with the executive. The secret de l'instruction, to use a continental concept, does not exist in the UK, and the accused has a right to hear the case against him. There obviously is a case, but there's also a quite horrendous misuse of an MP's time, only being questioned for one hour out of the nine he was under arrest.
If the police won't explain their case exactly and quickly, then it's time we looked elsewhere as another pillar of our civilisation falls.
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A reporter who faced the same charge as MP Damian Green asks: Was he bugged like me?
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Nick,
I have more sympathy with you than some of your harsher crtics. It can't be easy working with a government that places media control at the top of its priorities at all times. Providing honest opinion under such conditions cannot be easy for you.
But, there are times when your job, your career and even your pension would be better served by standing up to the bullies in their brown suits. The supremacy of parliament, civil liberties and democracy all demand your most vociferous support right here right now.
If you really can't see that then I think you''ll soon be following in John's quick steps......
Cheers,
Charles
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Meanwhile back on the economic front it looks like it's not only banks who are having problems lending.
I wonder if Duff Gordon's UK PLC credit card has maxed out.
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#214 recrec
"One further point are the police empowered to search the House of Commons with a search warrant? Surely Rex v Sir R F Graham-Campbell and others ex parte Herbert (1935) 1 K.B. p 594 applies to this case?"
That's surely the $64,000 question to be asked of the speaker, who has a lot of explaining to do. Does anyone know what the process of holding him to account is or whether a procedure even exists? Is it as simple as raising a point of order?
So far as the government is concerned, as others have said above, it is hard to believe that no minister knew in advance given who else was told, and "Duff" Gordon and Jacqui S seem to be backing themselves into an uncomfortable corner over this.
If they did know they are scoundrels. If they did not they are incompetent. Either way, this would have been a resigning matter with any previous government.
Our "independent" media in general and the BBC in particular will do themselves no good if they do not follow through on this one. Michael Crick's "closing arguments" on Newsnight last night suggested he's already buying new spin that this is not a major embarrassment for NuLab and that other "senior" Tories are to be brought in to the investigation. This does not bode well for the independence of the fourth estate.
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I have just read The Dodgy Lord's interview in The Guardian this morning.
it was a well deserved tonic in these times of economic gloom, terrorism and ZANUlabour police .
I knew he waaman of many talents but did not know he was a stand up comic too!!
To compare Busted Brown to Moses is really hilarious.
The first picture that came to my mind was one of Crash Gordon in the crib in treacherous waters not the one of the saviour of the world.
What a great leader he is ,in these troubled times he still has time to write personal letter to the X Factor candidates!!!
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Charles, that's either stupid or ingenuous. Take your pick.
Do you REALLY want to live in a country where elected representatives risk arrest and imprisonment for looking into the failures of government and exposing them? Whether we agree on the politics or not, who really believes the state needs such heavy sanction over a man who received information and exposed such incompetence as the government employing thousands of people illegally living in this country?
Are you REALLy saying you are happy that the State have to power to crush dissent like this?
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As dear old grandantidote used to say (where on earth is he right now?) barker, hardwidge, eatonrifle and company are surely wearing blinkers down to their knees. There is cross party concern about an action by anti terrorist police which led to an Honorary Member of Parliament being interviewed for one hour and locked up for eight having been decamped from his own home. Nick has gracefully acknowledged the validity of the concern it but these sycophantic partisans haven't.
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Many bloggers on this site use tenuous links to support their political agenda's but I wish those who feel MP's are above the law would take a moment to consider that if that were the case MP's can act at will and break any laws they wish.
What about Sinn Fein MP's in the 1980's. They actively supported Terroism and the Tories would not even allow their real voices to be heard in TV reports. I supported that policy. However if Special Branch had considered that they had illegal information in their Westminster Offices (they took offices but did not sit) they should, and would have arrested them.
Finally this rubbish about Anti Terroist Police is getting tiresome. The officers were from the Anti Terroist Command. It includes all special branch officers the same officers who would be expected to investigate breaches of the Official Secrets Act.
If anyone has stepped over the line here it is the Police and the proper response from Goverment now is to state that the evidence used to support the decision to make an arrest will be examined by a cross party group of peers augmented by at least two law lords ON COMPLETION of the investigation. If found insufficient to have been used the MPS can be made to discipline the decision maker.
Is it now Tory policy that when they regain power all their MP's will be exempt from the rule of law. After all the Tory head of the Police Authority in London takes children illegally in his two seater car, the Tory leader ignores the Highway Code and let's not forget the ex-cabinet ministers with first hand experience of our jails.
It would make goverment easier for them in two years wouldn't it if laws applied only to us mere mortals. The law is for all of us, or none of us.
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Methinks that Brown doth protest too much - I simply do not believe him that neither he nor the Home Secretary knew in advance that Damian Green was going to be arrested.
There must be a full public inquiry into what has happened and those involved in this gross breach of Parliamentary privilege must be held to account! Speaker Martin must go for a start!
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Nick
After the relevation by you and Robert Peston of all of the pre budget report details in advance, presumably you are living in fear of dawn raids on your property. Or do you have dispensation from high levels in government?
Comment on Damian Green has been the most blatantly biased comment I have ever seen from the BBC.
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#219 traducer
"Parliament (both sides of the house) drafted and approved absolutely draconian anti-terrorist legislation that effectively took away all the rights of all citizens/subjects of this country.
...
Quite frankly the term 'Hoisted by their own Petard'. Applies. I am laughing my socks off."
Given NuLab's absolute majority on the votes of less than a quarter of the electorate thanks to Westmidden's undemocratic electoral system, it's a little rich to blame opposition MPs for allowing this to happen. Even the "official" Tories have been less authoritarian than the "provo" ones in government.
The deplorable elective dictatorship our non-constitution has brought us to is hardly a cause for mirth, particularly as "Duff" Gordon could extend the life of this parliament indefinitely tomorrow simply by creating a few hundred new peers.
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All posters saying that regardless what has happened, police should not have arrested (or even investigated) Damian Green for "just doing his job":
Do you agree, or disagree with the following statement:
Civil Servants, who sign a contract promising to follow the Official Secrets Act, can disregard this providing they only leak to opposition politicians (who are the arbiters of what is and isn't in the national interest to pass onto the media or any individual of their choosing).
This doesn't just apply to isolated 'public interest' leaks. Opposition politicians can cultivate (or even hire) civil servants who serially forward on every document they come across. An arrangement where civil servants are being paid by opposition politicians to leak documents is perfectly acceptable and should not be investigated- indeed it is to be encouraged (the public have a right to know).
Opposition politicians should be encouraged to use the information in whatever way they see fit - hide it, pass the policy off as their own and criticise the Government for 'stealing' their own policy from the Conservatives (e.g. HMT Inheritance Tax plans), use it to embarrass the Government - whatever they see fit.
This only holds in time of Labour Government (which hopefully will never, ever happen again).
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# 241 CEH
The Tories new-found love of civil liberties is a delight to behold, if a tad unconvincing.
I seem to remember the Tory government encouraging police forces to travel round the country in the 80's beating in the skulls of miners who wanted to protect their jobs.
And then bringing in discriminatory legislation to make lesbians and gay men second class citizens.
I remember the actions of all governments, Labour and Tory, and draw my own conclusions.
A leopard doesn't change its spots!
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Oh Nick, how awful - MPs treated like "ordinary people" and made to suffer the sort of "Robust Policing" they routinely demand for everyone else.
Do you think the problem might be solved if we had a genuine "Right to Know" for the ordinary folk, rather than a system based on spin and leaks that leaves power in the hands of MPs (and journalists)?
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#231 winstonsmithkodogo
Naughty but nice!
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# 225. At 07:41am on 29 Nov 2008, fluffythoughts
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Posted at here, as free-speech is still appreciated outside of Al-Bean!
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# 254 Vorlon25
Well said! Information is power and we, the people, would like some.
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223 Roll_On_2010
Sadly we have all known for a very long time that Blair forced the war through, like a pet project.
I seriously can't see Brown authorising an inquiry - it would ruin his one man mission to get elected at any cost (to the tax payer).
Like so much with this government they will smother, suppress, intimidate and beat down their opponents. Damian Green is a case in point.
The pervasive NuLabour mindset is very evident on this blog. People who disagree with the government are routinely referred to moderators as a form of suppression.
The corpse-shell of so many referred posts above show exactly how these people operate. The more they refer, the more they show their true selves up.
Blair had better spend his millions quick. Looks like there could be a war crimes trial on its way. Gordon will delay it for a couple of years yet though...........
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While our zenmeister directs us towards fluffy pieces in the Grauniad from St. Polly and Lord Mandy, much more to the point is their lead political story: Blunkett leads attack against police 'overkill' after Green's arrest.
When the NuLab Home Secretary who managed to make Michael Howard look cuddly rails against it, surely even hardline NuLab supporter like balhamu must at least acknowledge that there's something worrying going on. Mustn't they?
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Until such time as my comment is suppressed and referred to the moderators.........I am in agreement with the lead article in today's Times:
"A full account of how the police came to make this woeful decision is urgently required and should be demanded by the Prime Minister. After all, he should be the first to understand the value of the freedom Mr Green was exercising."
The Times lead article
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Seeing as this was a Tory immigration spokesman, the question now is: how long before the BNP is banned by New Nazi Labour?
Probably right after they do well in next year's Euro elections, which are PR. Feurer Brown will then have to find a minority to persecute on to take our minds off his failing financial recovery plan, and the BNP would fit the bill nicely for him.
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237 Charles_E_Hardwidge
Loved the Mandelson spin in that article you posted...."people see Gordon Brown as a Moses figure".
......... nope....... I think more people, given a multiple choice test of biblical figures to select from, would consider Brown to be more like Judas Iscariot given his numerous betrayals of the British people.
It doesn't take long to notch up a list of betrayals either:
1. Iraq
2. Wrecking the economy having promised an "end to boom and bust"
3. Saddling the country with a vast debt
4. Trying to push through heavy handed terror legislation and then using it on countries like Iceland and people like Damian Green.
5. Pretending to the country that we are best placed in the UK to weather a recession
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#254 Vorlon25
#257 vor_tecks
If you're suggesting that it's a shame that NuLab ratted on their '97 manifesto promise of a referendum on electoral reform and other constitutional reforms, then I'm with you all the way.
OTOH, outwith such reform, these actions are aimed at removing the very few constitutional protections we have. When figures as far apart in Labour's spectrum as Tony Benn and Blunkett are concerned, you're burying your head in the sand not to be concerned about these issues.
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As the government ministers seem to know nothing about the arrest, we can assume that Gordon Brown is the "know nothing" leader of a "know nothing" government.
Not that we didn't know that already ....
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This has the potential to be the biggest politcal scandal for decades. That the BBC relegate the story to fifth item on their television news bulletin, and even then with only a two sentence report, is nothing short of a disgrace. I would have expected more influence from their political editor!
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brownedov
I'm no hardline supporter as you know.
I'm just a bit perplexed that without knowing the facts, people say it's the wrong thing to do.
Conceivably, there could have been either a document that is highly damaging to national security/or allegations that the serial leaker was being paid by Mr Green to break the Official Secrets Act, with the police acting on information from the mole.
If right-wingers are going to take the line the police should have not arrested Mr Green and allowed him time to hide whatever it is he is alleged to have done/have, then you obviously believe that whatever conceivable allegation is being faced, the police should not have acted.
It's bizarre that you would think that paying Civil Servants to break the Official Secrets Act is acceptable. Cameron will certainly regret his stance if Mr Green has not told him the whole truth!
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I find it strange that all the usual pro-Labour suspects are out in force defending the actions of the police.
Just think guys - in a few years time new Labour could be out of power and those evil Tories could be the one locking up Labour Shadow Ministers for releasing leaked material.
But as you are so fair minded on everything I am sure you would consider that to be democracy in action!
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#265 - absolutely correct - the Brown Broadcasting Corporation is a disgrace! This gross breach of Parliamentary privilege is a wake up call that our freedoms and democracy are in peril as never before. It should have been prominently covered in the broadcast television news. But the BBC News bulletins seem to be shamelessly edited to favour the governing party.
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I remember the Tories from the last time around and their tub thumping and attitude now is a backwards step that looks remarkably familiar. It's just more Thatcherism and clever clever Saatchi and Saatchi. Same con, different day.
The short memories around here might like to remember the zeal with which the Tories egged on the 'cash for honours' affair, and how they delighted in every crumb that fell from the table. By comparison Labour is being quite mature about it. Don't believe me? Go check.
The Tories don't care if it's good or bad attention as long as they get attention, so the likes of Blunkett and Abbot might like to watch their mouths. Being "principled" is fine but when you're up against a Tory party who will lie or lie by ommision you're just shooting yourself in the foot.
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#269 - Charles, you are onto a complete loser on this one, so why don't you just dry up?
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Matthew Parris calls it well! And this little gem for your delight, http://tinyurl.com/5rafom
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269 Charles_E_Hardwidge
"party who will lie or lie by ommision"
That seems very familiar........
1. Dodgy dossier
2. Not sufficient time given in cabinet to discuss Iraq
3. This country is best placed to weather the recession
4. No more boom and bust
5. No you can't have a referendum we promised you
6. I will serve a full third term
7. Baby P report suppressed
8. The Eccelstone money did not effect government policy
9. I was looking for badgers ;-)
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Two cheers for this website's, Tory questions on Green arrest. They're all good questions from Grieve, but it's a pity that the all-party nature of the outrage isn't stressed, and the by-line given to it doesn't exactly encourage non-partisan readers to press on, and it's given little prominence on the Politics home page.
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# 263 Brownedov
Thanks but no thanks.
I subscribe to my own agenda, just as you so clearly do.
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Well now MP's know what 'normal' citizens are subjected too!
Last week at paddington Station, intimidating officers were searching people with signs saying 'You will be told how the procedure works IF asked to undergo a search' WHY NOT list what occurs for all to see whether searched or not??? Something to hide????
Civil rights are dissipating before our eyes in this country and its the very MP's complaining about the Green Incident that have created this scenario passing lawing willy nilly that erode our rights!
WHO DO THEY THINK PROVIDED THE POLICE WITH THEIR REMIT.......Why its parliament and its trappings!!! Nice to see these unfair rules being applied to those who introduced them!!!! What goes around......comes around!!!!
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Nick,
whilst all this is going on Lord Mandelson has a list of companies which he regards as being strategic and must not be allowed to fail because they are key employers.
This list must be published and in the public domain. I want to know that the firms I am dealing with will not fail, if Mandelson and some civil servants know then how can we rely on that information not being spread amongst 'friends'. A bit like do not go on holiday to some place or other, or don't fly on that plane, because there is strong evidence that something might happen.
Others as well as myself are astounded that more protection seems to be given to the media than to MPs. Your colleague Robert Peston must reveal the source of his 'exclusive' about where he was getting his information from. His actions over that period were totally unacceptable, and must be investigated. Why have they not been, why is he still employed by the BBC. Consider what happened to Andrew Gilligan and Dr David Kelly, as well as some senior BBC executives. Hounded, and one ends -up committing 'suicide'. Again any inquest on Dr Kelly.
As for Mr Green having his computer conviscated can we expect a visit from the police in respect of anybody he has been in touch with. A family member has had to hand over his computer as part of a court judgement, be afraid everybody, very afraid.
Finally, I seriously hope that there are absolutely no images on Mr Green's computer which could be used as some sort of child protection investigation. I fear that people can send through images that the recipient does not want, but which get on the hard disc without the recipient knowing anything at all.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
So, I have been referred to the moderators for pointing out apparent moderation inconsistencies?
Posters have a right to be treated equitably. If the moderators were trying to bring the BBC into disrepute, they couldn't be doing a better job.
Nick - sort it out, or I will be involving MPs of all parties in this.
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The reason Cameron knew about this was Boris told him - thats a FACT Boris is NOT denying.
Boris was told in advance in his role as Mayor of London - therefore Head of Met Police Committee.
Once the arrest had been made - he told Cameron.
The Speaker was informed as following the arrest Greens Parliamentary Office was raided.
The implication Cameron was told is untrue - Cameron was told by Boris - not by the Met Pol. Brown and Smith were also told AFTER THE EVENT!
In any criminal case where documents/items are stolen - if the charged party - in this case the whistleblower - mentions or is found to be collusion with a third party - then the third party will invariably be arrested and question - as has happened here.
If I work for hyperthtically Company A - and steal and pass on confidential info to Company B - then I stand to be charged with theft or similar offences.
What the Police have to ascetain was this - was Green in receipt of stolen documents or is he guilty of the worse charge of asking for material to be stolen to his order.
A leak - is theft - you take something you are NOT supposed to.
The other salient point here that Cameron needs to answer is this - if he knew shortly after 2pm - which he did cause Boris told him - what was he doing between then and approx 7pm - when the story broke...?????
I'll give you a clue - he was rounding up any right wing journalist he could find to spin the story to the fact it was "stalin-esque"...
One final question to erstwhile PM Cameron - as PM would you open up every Whitehall file for public inspection???....or will you like every previous PM - Government - seek Police assistance in tracking down thieves via the rrelevant Government Office as in this case!
We await to see if Damian Green was more complicit in any criminal activity than so far seems the case - but the Public will rightly expect him to be dealt with in exactly the same was as they would if he was found to be in receipt of stolen goods!
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Either way whether The Government were or were not told about this disgraceful raid they have serious questions to answer. In chess it's called 'being in a pair of trousers.'
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Wonder where Robert Peston has been getting most of his information about the financial difficulties facing the country. This is obviously information which the govt wanted to come out but not directly say so, same as the budget information. When does a leak become seroius? Is it only when the info can be damaging to those in power, in which case its classified as secret?
Obviously he is in no danger of arrest as this type of leak is classed as spin, the embarrassing ones bring the full weight of the anti-terrorist laws to bear. Looks like Gordon Brown is reverting to stalinist techniques , ably assissted by the Brown Broadcastin Corporation
This current govt has no moral beacon, the ends always justify the means, in fact with their current poor performance it's not the ends it's the ideals.
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Funny how Labour MPs and ESP 'Jacky' Smith are saying Ministers are right not to intervene in 'police affairs'
Who exactly are the police accountable to if not to Parliament and ministers? No-one?
Sounds like the animals have already taken over the farm.
GC
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# 278 TREBORDOYLE
Yes indeed.
Politicians from all parties are jumping on any passing bandwagon to restrict our freedom.
The less power we have the more power they have, and all done in the name of security.
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel!
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It is of course just a freudian slip that Brown is referred to as Stalin. You cannot believe a word that comes from that quarter at the moment. I see that Mandelson has now said there is no way that the length and depth of the recession can be assessed, in direct contrast to Darling who has documented that it will be all sorted in two years. It is pretty basic to the strategy put in place, so which is it, assessable or not assessable. ID cards and cameras and data collection are all for our good, just as abuse of the terrorism act by the police is also for our collective good. This government extensively uses leaks to the media for its own ends, but anybody else considering it is a danger to society.
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braveSouter wrote:
Next time a burglar enters the house of Cam the Sham - I hope it never happens - can we expect him to say, 'I do not really mind, after all, he was only doing his job'.
What a stupid comment! If you really can't tell the difference between a member of the opposition releasing information that is kept out of the public domain only because it is an embarassment to the party of government and someone who breaks into other houses then I am amazed!
The current government (and the current PM) did it all the time when they were in opposition - the difference is that they were never arrested for it.
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Questions you may wish to raise with Gordon Brown and his team.
Why was Damien Green arrested by the counter terrorism squad -- whereas during the cash for honour investigation -- Tony Blair was "invited" by the police for questioning. Quite apart from the gross misuse of police powers by the Labour Government -- this man wasn't "on the run" for example and I am sure would have happilly co-operated if politely asked to discuss the home office claims. Raiding his office, home etc is just way over the top.
And finally if GB didn't know about this planned arrest -- why didn't he ? It was a very serious breach of democracy.
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Nick,
it is time to impeach the Prime Minister, both this one and the last one. They are both up to their necks on the War in Iraq, one ordered it the other paid for it.
There must be an urgent inquiry into the War in Iraq, and the ocupation. There has been a cover-up in Downing Street, both in No 10 and No 11. Our soldiers have killed and been killed based on lies, they followed orders, it is the men giving the orders who must be prosecuted. This is not the country I thought I lived in, this is just so sad for all those people who have fought and died to bring us democracy, they seem to have died in vain. All my illususions are being shattered with almost every passing day.
I am a mature student studying Politics with the Open University, and as I write my essays I look around me and I feel like crying. So very sad, at this rate I may actually be driven to go on to the streets, much against my natural inclinations. I have always been a conformist, but where is Spartacus.
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Too little, too late, Robinson. Your mealy-mouthed last paragraph is a poor attempt at a figleaf. It fails.
And censorship reigns at Al-JaBeeba, the media arm of ZanuLabor - complicit, unenquiring, fawning.
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#277 vor_tecks
In that case you're being very blinkered. Sensible Aunty Annabel excepted, I despise the BluLab unionists almost as much as I despise the NuLab unionists, and do not believe the UK will long survive in the absence of major constitutional reform which results in home rule for all 4 "home" nations.
Even so, when I see the "official" Tories railing at what is clearly a constitutional outrage I know who's in the right as, seemingly, can most NuLab MPs who are not on the government payroll.
The current government has little or no democratic validity and to give it even more power than it already has would be sheer lunacy.
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Quote: "These leaks are in the public interest"
No, they're not. It is only an interest to the media so they can exploit and glamorise mundane non-issues to rile up our passions over things that aren't even happening. It simply feeds hysteria, the opposition and undermines the government.
Unless the leaks provided are detailing illegal activity this is all just fluff.
Democracy wasn't going to die had we not known that government was considering raising VAT. Or if we didn't weren't privy to some private letters.
In fact, it is a threat to democracy that MPs are trying to protect a privilege that we don't have. If there is corruption in Parliament, the police have a duty to investigate and they shouldn't be stopped by outdated parliamentary tradition. If they find nothing, then it's okay. If they do, then where should that outrage go?
Also, I find the attempt to parallel this event with the build up to our Civil War incredibly offensive and over the top.
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275 Brownedov
That is a great set of questions...... all of which I fully expect to go unanswered.
Imagine how long it would take to get Gordon Brown to answer those questions at Prime Ministers Questions!
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Interesting that the bloggers who spin the official Labour line on here disappear at night and pop up again after 9am. You're not one staffer operating multiple accounts from party HQ, by any chance?
Whoever you are - consider this. The attacks that your overlords have made on political freedom will be still doing damage after the next election. I'll have to vote for Cameron to get rid of Brown - though without great enthusiasm - but I'm yet to be convinced that he has the strength of character to restore the checks, balances, and political freedoms that Brown and Blair have undermined or destroyed.
If Cameron is tempted to keep in place the powerful apparatus of state control that Brown has assembled, after 2010, you could find it being used against you. Would that make you think twice about so enthusiastically supporting measures that Tony Benn yesterday denounced as befitting a police state? Or maybe you don't care, because you're not expecting Brown to allow the British public another free and fair election?
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Gordy??
You must be proud
A trashed economy
A trashed democracy
Roll on going back to the Middle Ages
There is a STENCH in the AIR.
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Post 281 Lady Sasha
Spot on Ive already done the MP appointment.
A letter to the BBC via DLA Piper Solicitors.
TRULY DISGUSTED
WEYBRIDGE
The Curse
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The name of the officer leading this operation is Quick. I hope that something is said very quickly to this individual to remind him that no one - not even senior policemen - is above the law. He is not the sort of individual I want to see leading the Metropolitan Police.
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sashaclarkson:
My Mum was born in Birkenhead and brought up in Middlesborough in the 20's, Bylands Street . Is it still there?
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297 -
I could not agree more on this specific issue!
Fact is - if I steal or obtain documents illegally,I expect to be arrested,maybe charged if the case is proven.
That Green is in receipt of leaked documents is not denied - therefore it is right that he is asked how he obtained these.
Legally,the whistleblower has been questioned,and once a link to Green from him was established-if this is the case - the questioning of Greenw as inevitable.
There also seems to be some inference these documents may not have simply been passed to Green - if it is found that he asked for them - a graver offence has been committed.
What has cloudied the issue is 9a) the apparent over-zealous action of the Police and (b) the "orchestrated Tory response" - no doubt cooked up between 2pm when Cameron found out and 7pm - when the story began to emerge -I suspect every friendly hack had been lined up by then.
But please spare us the shocked Mrs Green - my husband has been finger printed and DNA samples taken - that is normal bog standard practice.
Me thinks Mr Cameron doth protest too much!
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Here's a bit of political history for you to put this affair into better context:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/andrew-grice/andrew-grice-and-the-real-champion-of-leaks-is-1040240.html
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Blair > Brown > Cameron?
That is like re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
I agree with Brownedove to the extent that constitutional change is essential to curb the wilder excesses of any government.
Will any future government enact the legislation to allow that to happen?
Yes, right after turkey's are given the vote and they use it to vote for Christmas.
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sicillian29@247"Nick has gracefully acknowledged the validity of the concern it but these sycophantic partisans haven't."
Nick has done nothing of the sort. I'm sure he's clever enough to see whats going on. I am sorry if you think I'm biased, unlike the hundreds of balanced reasonable people on this blog.;-) LOL
The complaint being investigated is incitement to leak information rather than receiving information anonymously. This is a crime. Tony Benn and Diane abbot are Left wingers who seem see politics as an intellectual game. They were all right when Tony Blair was there to rebel against but now I think they would prefer to take their unrealistic principles into opposition.
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Dear All,
I have just listened to the BBC news, 11.30am and absolutely no mention of this non-news.
Good job BBC, keep it up.
Ooops must go, there is a knock at the door!
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Some posters here, especially the vociferous rump supporting the government, seem to be treating this as the usual tribal political spat.
It isn't. A line has been crossed here which for thinking people establishes a very frightening precedent.
I don't care what the Tories have done in the past, or may do in the future. I am concerned with what is happening now.
Power tends to corrupt whoever is in government, and they usually recover their principles and some humility in opposition.
However, the Blair/Brown government was insufferably arrogant almost from day one. Remember the Uxbridge by election fiasco? Think of the Formula 1 scandal. F1 got what it wanted, but then NuLab had to pay the million quid back. Incompetent as well as apparently venial!
Over the next few years, most of the members in my constituency who had made a Labour Government possible left the party in disgust. For those who remain it is largely the semi-blinkered triumph of hope over experience. And yes, a period of belligerent denial usually precedes the final disillusion.
Think for yourself. Stand up for our rights while you can. This IS Britain, not Zimbabwe.
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The BBC seems intent on playing down this outrageous incident. It's all over today's newspapers but the BBC already seems to have buried it.
Please STOP playing party politics with our democracy. I expect the BBC to be more than the government's Pravda. An outrageous abuse of democracy has occurred and the government is up to its neck in it. INVESTIGATE it, please!
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#293
Seriously, you show total ignorance of the Constitution and the facts.
Green wasn't even involved in the VAT leak, he was looking into the governemnt employing thousands of people illegally in this country.
You also need to swot up on the reason for Parliamentary Privilige etc before writing because you're just flaunting your ignorance at the moment.
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Can someone please tell me how you can copy a website link that then appears in blue writing but shorten or change it before it is finally posted. I think it's quite cool!
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Nick,
I think that we are almost in a state of emergency over the economy, part of an economic war being fought against our enemies. Should the Stock Exchange not be closed because surely divulging information useful to the enemy should not be allowed. Share prices collapse harms morale. In fact all statistical information should be discontinued with immediate effect. The Retail Price Index is too important to come into the public domain. There is actually too much information, think of all the civil servants who should lose their jobs if all the information did not have to be collected and collated and issued to us the public.
How many armoured vehicles are going to be sent to the army for use in Iraq and Afghanistan, 700. That is information useful to the enemy, I should not know this. How many soldiers in the war zones, seven thousand odd, what equipment do they have Prince Harry, what body armour. All of this is useful to the enemy. Get your finger out Gordon.
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#301 "My Mum was born in Birkenhead and brought up in Middlesborough in the 20's, Bylands Street . Is it still there?"
There never was a Bylands St (I have an old map.) Byelands St TS4 is still there: look it up on Google maps. In the 20s it would have been upper working class I'd have thought.
:-)
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Good to see Liberty speaking out on this:
http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/news-and-events/1-press-releases/2008/damien-green-s-arrest.shtml
And Amnesty are waking up:
http://www.protectthehuman.com/bookmarks/senior-tory-angered-by-his-arrest
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#306 "constitutional change is essential to curb the wilder excesses of any government."
I agree, 100%. Separation of Powers.
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30*:
It's non-news if you love wading in The Brown stuff. If you don't then it's yet another indication of BBC bias and an indication that Sky and other news channels are better balanced with their information. It's the way to go. Sad because I have been a staunch BBC fan for many many years.
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Nick,
How many leaked documents have you and Robert Peston have had in the last year?
I suppose its one thing for a minister of the crown to leak something as apposed to an inividual within the organization who is doing it because information is being suppressed by government and they dont want it in the public domain.
Govts leak all the time so it comes out on a "bad news day" plenty of them recently, or they can spin a bad situation to their own advantage.
I dont think we have heard the last of this and Mr Martin`s tenure in office must be at risk.The words used by the PM and the Home Secretary do not discount prior knowledge of the MP`s arrest. Neither when told did they do anything to stop it.
The conclusion one can only draw from all of this is implied approval. Our liberties are at serious risk and the way the police and Govt go about their businss nowadays it is truly frightening.
I just hope for once Nick, you and your collegues get to the bottom of this story. Someone in Govt started all this off and someone in Govt needs to be held accountable.
Ever since Peter Mandleson came back to Govt there has been a noticeable change in Labour - one which I personally find distasteful.
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Yet another referral to the moderators? Can't even say "perceived to be less than lillywhite" any more? "Perceived to be" is opinion, not an allegation. It is therefore not defamatory.
Caesar's wife must be above suspicion, means not only must she be innocent, but she must be perceived to be innocent!
Shall I use shorter words for the benefit of the moderators? Newspeak here we come. My prevous posts can be replaced with one word:
THOUGHTCRIME.
PS, to the moderators, if you don't know what newspeak or thoughtcrime refer to, you really should not be doing this job.
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CEH@269
"the likes of Blunkett and Abbot might like to watch their mouths"
That looks very threatening.
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#312 Right click on the page and select "View Source" , then search for what someone else has done!
Good luck!
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In case it has slipped the tories mind? over the last couple of years we have seen many
files and documents go missing.
Tax files,
Hospital files,
Military records,
Social security records,
Top secret memo's left on trains,
N.I. files,
Jeez, for all we know criminals and terorrist may have all these vital disc's and records.
In these extreme times it is important that responsibilty is adhered to.
Are the tory bloggers really saying that the police, will act with political favour?
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"310. At 11:38am on 29 Nov 2008, starryaeonflux wrote:
The BBC seems intent on playing down this outrageous incident. It's all over today's newspapers but the BBC already seems to have buried it.
Please STOP playing party politics with our democracy. I expect the BBC to be more than the government's Pravda. An outrageous abuse of democracy has occurred and the government is up to its neck in it. INVESTIGATE it, please!"
Well said, the BBC coverage is noticeably poorer and more low key than that of ANY other newspaper (even the Guardian) or broadcaster in this country.
It is shocking, especially as it is the only one we have little choice in funding (assuming we wish to watch television).
Every email about this subject is ignored; Nick only had to issue a new blog story because of the 99% unanimous (with the exception of a couple of the usual NuLabour trolls) response to his original "article" (a high school student could have done better).
Now after realising that they have massively misjudged the public reaction, and that they should have exercised their independence rather than reading from the Mandelson (remember him? remember Oleg Deripaska? or have you been told to desist on this story also) hymn sheet.
It is an absolute disgrace, and the Conservatives will have my support at the next election, even if their only manifesto pledge is to break up the bloated socialist mouthpiece of the BBC
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#160 djlazarus
......They'll be knocking on your door next Nick ;).....
Somehow I very much doubt it, very obviously ths Labour administration are operating cynical double standards. Witness Peston and Nick Robinson being drip fed snippets ahead of the PBR last week, and now, an Elected Conservative MP is arrested for having the temerity to make public information the Government would much rather we, the Proletariat, weren't aware of because, for sure, it shows up their rank ineptitude. I do not believe for one second, the denials of senior Cabinet Ministers and El Gordo and protestations they only became aware after the event. Please!!
For the record, and not simply to appease Labour supporters here, I would be just as disgusted had the roles been reversed, ie a Tory Government running scared and evidence of their incompetence in the hands of a senior Shadow Cabinet member, say Phil Woolas as early as 2009!!
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power@109
ROFL
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What, like Greenpeace used iffy data and targetted Apple just because they wanted some media attention?
And so, we go from The Fourth Protocol to The Bonfire of the Vanities.
Didn't take long...
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derekbarker - haven't you guys at Editorial Intelligence got anything better to do than mould the views of the commentariat on this fine Saturday?
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hypocon@110
"people should watch their step regarding the political liberties they take"
Hmmmm
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327 CEH
I reckon they must have allocated you your own personal moderator! 320 to 326 unpublished. 327 (CEH) published.
Blimey - that is not bad going!
By the way - I heard Dominic Grieve interviewed on the radio a few minutes ago. I don't think the Conservatives are going to let this arrest of an MP issue drop.
We'll just have to wait and see what happens.
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So just let's be clear Charles_E_Hardwidge, you're really pleased to see MPs arrested by counter-terrorism police over publicising leaks of serious incompetence in governemnt?
Just to be clear, because so far all you do is write faux-smart comments criticising the critics of the action.
Let's avoid distractions to what this or that previous government did or didn't do and address the question of the day; is this what you'd like to see our police occupied with?
Look forward to hearing from you (or not perhaps).
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#41 GMTrevellyan Are you any relation to the great historian(s) "A History of England under the Stuarts" was a masterpiece!
I thought is should have been subtitled "Why Kings without heads make better monarchs".
No reference to our present uncrowned "monarch" of course.
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269 Charles_E_Hardwidge
As well as Blunkett and Abott, you'll need to have a word with Dennis McShane and Tony Benn.
Personally I think it is great when you get cross party consensus for something. It makes a change to the usual back-biting.
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If Jacqui Smith didn't know about this arrest then she must go for this indicates she is not in control.
Obviously this government are hell bent in hiding their blushes, just look at the lost data and files left on trains - a norm with this government and something that never happened - I wouldn't trust them with a pea-shooter let alone our security.
If no one did gave the green light then this government must be seen putting the metro's tail between their hind legs in full glory - if not then it's plainly obvious who is responsible, Micheal Martin's position needs to be questioned and not behind closed doors!
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#312 sicilian29
Try this link.
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@ 311
Um, firstly. It was an example about the leaks they are trying to turn into some necessity.
Parliamentary privilege was not so they can disclose nonsense that only serves their party interests. It's an abuse.
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323 Derekbarker
Well Ian Blair, the outgoing head honcho from the Met Police was criticised precisely because he was seen to politicise the role.
For instance, I think it was Ian Blair who came out and wrote an article supporting ID Cards in a newspaper on the day of the important vote.
Rightly or wrongly, it looked like Ian Blair was in the Labour Parties pocket.
The police role should not be political and they should not be seen to be underlings working favours for politicians - otherwise the police will court controversy and suspicion - such as with the Dominic Green arrest.
If Ian Blair hadn't politicised the role of Met Police chief, then maybe people would be more forgiving and less suspicious that Gordon Brown had (with suitable plausible deniability of course) ordered the arrest of a Conservative MP.
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In #200 redsox367 wrote that it was interesting that MPs apparently think they themselves should be above the statues they enact.
But, as I pointed out in #117, the offence charged is an ancient common law one made by judges, and NOT one made under a statute enacted by MPs in Parliament.
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derek@186
"Funny how who the equilateral triade tories like shooting blanks."
What language is this?
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Just Curious
What was the Tory position on
The Freedom of Information Act?
When it was introduced, for it or against it, I genuinely don't know.
Any one know?
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# I am very concerned about the attitude of SOME pro goverment bloggers here.
They seem perfectly happy with the use of the power of the state to harrass/stifle political opposition.
I would like to ask - in what way DO you think you are different from ZanuPF supporters - ok, no guns, but in your attitude to democracy.
To me it seems that "anything goes, so long as it's our guy who does it". Or perhaps "That lot (sort of) did it before, so it's our turn now."
As for sneering at Liberty - remember, Harriet Harman used to chair it once.
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#275 & 294
It is indeed a good set of questions. Worth listing ::
1. Who initiated the original Home Office leak inquiry?
2. Did ministers approve it?
3. When was it initiated?
4. Who ran the inquiry and who had knowledge of it?
5. Were any ministers briefed about the inquiry, how were they briefed, when and by whom?
6. What did the prime minister know and when? Did he call for a leak investigation by the police in the first place?
But surely all can be answered with one catch all response :
"It all started in America"
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331. I just filed a complaint about that very same observation - it has happened repeatedly today and complaints about that don't see that person's posts 'referred to moderators' as everyone else's are...
This blog process looks like just another epiome of BBC bias therefore.
It really is disgraceful and the truth behind the impression of allowing a democratic voice to all is rumbled.
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Right, let me get this straight. People think its bad for democracy that an independent police force can arrest an MP without the say so of someone in the cabinet? The fact is the reverse is true. The moment you say that only the PM or Home Sec can approve an arrest of an MP you are on the road to a police state! The police do not serve parliment, they serve the people! Probably a lot better than parliment do! And frankly I think this is just a simple case of the Tory chickens coming home to roost! They were not screaming when Labour MPs were arrested in dawn raids, they were all over the media saying how sleazy Labour was! They were disgusted when they found out that a Labour Peer would decide if the investigation proceeded (until he stood aside) and this is the fruit of their earlier screaming. Enjoy it!
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The problem is that Labour are trying to deploy a political response to a constitutional crisis. This went way beyond politics and to the heart of Democracy and Freedom the second that Green was arrested. Brown is the only major leader not to have condemned the arrest? By being political here he looks worse.
Gordon Brown is distancing himself from Democracy
The sooner we sort this out honourably, the sooner we can return to all the fun and freedom of confrontational politics.
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@311
Something I forgot to reply at. We don't have a constitution. ;)
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At 11:59am on 29 Nov 2008, derekbarker wrote:
In case it has slipped the tories mind? over the last couple of years we have seen many
files and documents go missing.
Tax files,
Hospital files,
Military records,
Social security records,
Top secret memo's left on trains,
N.I. files,
Jeez, for all we know criminals and terorrist may have all these vital disc's and records.
In these extreme times it is important that responsibilty is adhered to.
Derek, it is the Labour goverment's responsibility to ensure personal and national security information is kept secure within government departments. This is very different from 'leaked information' that is in the public interest, for example exposing poor cleanliness standards in a hospital. All governments try to hide bad news and spin statistics in their favour, but this one is by far the worst and often does it's utmost to prevent the truth coming out. Independent auditors should verify statistics and information produced by government departments, to allow the public to have more respect for this information.
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May I say how bitterly I resent the accusation from Nu-Labour apparatchiks that anyone concerned by this abuse of power is a card-carrying Tory?
Like my parents before me, I'm a committed socialist and have supported Labour through thick and thin (and there's been plenty of that lately).
This outrage, however, is the last straw. I shall vote for whoever looks like defeating the Nu-Labour candidate. In my constituency that will probably be the Lib Dem, but I would be prepared to set aside a lifetime's political loyalty and vote Tory if necessary.
This abuse of democracy must stop now.
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331 jonathan_cook
This CEH moderation censorship game you lot are playing is getting really sad. I've been moderated several times today. Except the one where I criticised the left wing of labour. balhamu Is never even close to being offensive and is always polite about nick and the moderators unlike most and he has been moderated. bravesouter is fair as well and CEH has been moderated several times recently as well.
Lets hope you people are not digging a very deep hole and burrying yourselves in a huge pile of bad karma. I have this sneaking suspicion that you are.
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Thanks for referring my politely worded and utterly innoffensive critique of your post to the mods, Charles.
Good to know your defence of free speech is consistent.
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This is a test....
Gordon Brown has a lot of questions to answer to on the subject of Damian Green.
My only issue is that the Prime Minister hates being straight forwards and honest with the British public.
Brown couldn't even answer a question in PMQ's in an honest and open way.
I suspect that the questions surrounding this case will remain unanswered unless a media storm or embarrassing leak force Brown to come clean on some aspect or other.
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Thank you for this interesting article Nick. My concern is that the police are required to respond to a request from the Home office. As it was a high ranking official who called the police they have to respond. I am not a police officer, though I think they do their best to be fair and it is with a heavy heart that I see photos of police in front of the House of Commons with machine guns on the BBC website. This is not the best image to send around the world. It will be very important to see how the Speaker of the House and the Home Office handle this. It is critical that all MPs be it Gordon Brown or Damien Green have freedom to ask questions no matter which party is leading the country. It is the job of the civil servants to ensure there is fair play between the parties and try not to take one side or another. Was it official secrets that were being released or just information in preparation for a minister to make an announcement? If everything is handled as official secrets it would be impossible to keep a democracy going in the UK. In the US you can ask for next to anything, they just put a thick black pen through info that is viewed an official secret. It is sad that the bastion of democracy has locked the doors and hidden behind the thick walls of the government buildings instead of allowing the parties to debate the pros and cons before us. If we start to misuse our police and courts to handle interparty disputes then we have lost something. It is not fair to push the police and courts into the bickering of politians as they fight amongst themselves to agree a policy or a shadow policy. This is why we have given them the freedom to speak whilst under the protection of Parliament. They can say things there with complete freedom, civil servants know if they are under pressure to do something they disagree with they can find an MP to discuss it with. Yes maybe it will probably be an opposition MP or a backbencher of the governing party but it gives them a way to question policy. We complain when a civil servant does not raise concerns, they can be arrested if they go to the press yet now they are not given access to MPs to share a concern. It is a sad day and your article points to a time when the country responded with civil war, so freedom is important and we need to keep it no matter what our politics are.
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#337
Nope, you still don't understand do you? MPs are priviliged people because they need to be so they can hold the executive to account. You can't do that without latitude.
The rules are confusing to some because our constitution evolved over centuries to develop solutions to the challenges of separations of powers. That's why heavy-handed instruments like the Human Rights Act do more harm than good, because they overlook nuances.
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What can I say? The BBC looks after the talent.
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I recommend anyone who still has faith in the BBC to read Ben Wright's article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7755974.stm.
He seems to think that this is a rather amusing conflict between modern policing and mediaeval customs. Not a threat to our democratic freedoms then, Ben?
Of course, I can see that a Corporation desperate to keep the licence fee might be afraid to antagonise the Government, but even the BBC should realise that this party will not be in power for ever, and that some politicians have long memories.
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#356
More likely just the mods having "fun" because the blog doesn't suit their personal slant on the issue.
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#348
Er.... we do. It's unwritten but it's nontheless there.
You really haven't studied politics at all have you? :)
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#338
Jonathan, Conspiracy theories, claim down?
Its a police matter, let it run it's course.
Do you think GB sanctioned the arrest?
Come on Jon, get a grip, stop trying to score cheap political points.
Jonathan, all this conspiracy tripe does our nation more harm than the actual arrest.(think about it)
Tell you what, why dont the conservatives and their supporters try and convince the public with policies, jeez, the negative tories are so predictable.
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How long is it until the news breaks that a Minister did have prior knowledge of the arrest? It'll be a junior minister that will take the blame for not passing it on. Denials will flow from the home office faster than champagne on a Russians yacht, but eventually the truth will be out and we'll discover who authorised this smear operation and hopefully the outcry will force a much overdue election.
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341 Eatonrifle
I was trying to find voting records on Freedom of Information act.
It isn't the easiest web-site to navigate. From this link it looks like the both the Conservatives and Labour agreed for the need of the act.
It would appear from the link I have posted the the two parties differed in their views of the way the mechanics by which the act should operate.
The Conservatives appear to have suggested it would cause logistical or other issues if from day one the public were entitled to receive all information via the act.
Voting records
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@ 322 and 336 #:
Thanks guys. Much appreciated
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Defenders of the police action against Damian Green emphasise that he might have committed a crime of 'conspiring' to, effectively, induce someone to provide him with sensitive government information.
This opens up a spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are threats of physical violence, harassment, or blackmail; at the other end there is a whispered, "Psst, I've got something here that might interest you."
In the middle there is a casual conversation between two acquaintances, which somehow drifts into an agreement for one to get useful information for the other.
Clearly, in about 99% of possible scenarios, the obtaining and passing of information involves some form of mutual contract. Does this always constitute a 'conspiracy'?
Without thumbscrews, the police would find it difficult to really pin down a crime. And if it's easier than I imagine, a lot of MPs and journalists should be quaking in their shoes.
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"hopefully the outcry will force a much overdue election."
Not if the BBC reports it in minuscule type at the bottom of page 57, so to speak.
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Hi Nick,
Sorry but this is still very tame. I have much respect for you in that you don't censor those comments that are highly critical of you (which may be why your blog is so popular compared to others). However this is an extremely serious matter in terms of political freedom and the government needs to be held to account. It is totally ludicrous to suppose they had no knowledge of the imminent arrest and search of Damian Greens parliamentary office - they need to be taken to task. As do the police who seem to have acted in a very vindictive and heavy handed manner on the flimsiest of legal excuses. Heads should roll for this and it is the political media's job to make sure they do - otherwise I'm afraid you're simply not fit for purpose.
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351 DHWilkinson
Have you not noticed a sudden upsurge in posts being referred to moderation?! It has suddenly jumped over the last two days.
I am asking whoever it is to stop it.
Yes you guys have had the odd thing here or there referred, but I know that I have had things referred that on any other day would be fine.
I haven't got a clue who is doing it. But it is idiotic.
Personally I believe in free speech. I've never referred anyone, not once. People can say whatever they like about me and as rudely as they like and I still support their right to say it.
Someone is on some sort of suppression-power trip.
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Remember those videos of PMQs where Brown pulled those awful fake smiles? And where his hand was shaking as he told the most outrageous lies?
We'll find out the truth alright. Brown's too bad a liar to keep a secret for long.
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#349
Simondav, look any Joe the plumber can tell if a hospital is in need of cleaning ect.
Are you saying that someone like David Davis, entire responsibility is to sanction leaks for his and his parties own political gain.
Call me old-fashioned, but, I like political parties to win elections by the ideas of their manifestoes and what the would actually do as a government.
Simon, are you pre-judging the out-come of this arrest?
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360 Derekbarker
I don't believe much Gordon Brown says these days.
If he didn't stand up and tell such big lies to the whole country, then it would be easier to believe him when he says there was no ministerial involvement.
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Nick will you please persuade your colleagues on the HYS board to post this as one of their debates. It is a disgrace that an item as topical as this has been passed over - simply confirms the disgraceful bias in BBC ranks.
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This whole issue is of serious concern and brings into question the accountability and role of the Executive, along with many more questions that we must demand answers for.
This story must be allowed to run to its natural conclusion and must remain in the public eye.
And yet...
Its no longer an article on the front page of the website; don't tell me Mandy has applied pressure for this to be quietly forgotten about?
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360. That is the whole point. It is not "just a police matter".
Gordon Brown and others (although by no means all) of the Labour party seem to be using this "Police Matter" because, for any other case, it would be true. In almost any other case the Police are rightly free to investigate an offence free of daily intereference from their political masters. This is a good thing.
But this case is totally different.
In this case the Police, who work for the government, have breached the supremacy of Parliament and the privileged relationship between an MP and his electorate. This is an UNCONSTITUTIONAL ACT, going to the very heart of our democracy.
It may seem trivial, or technical - and it is an easy thing to play it that way in the hope that the public will overlook it, but those who are prepared to do so show themselves for the cynical politicians they are. That is what worries me about Gordon Brown's response. HE IS BREACHING THE TRUST OF THE ELECTORATE by not protecting the Democracy which put him in power.
There is no single issue or matter more important than this in our lifetime. If we lose our Parliamentary Democracy, what are we all fighting for anyway?
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#312 sicilian29
Brownedov has a more up to date link, but if you go here you'll find the instructions how to make the smart link.
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dhwilkinson wrote:
331 jonathan_cook
This CEH moderation censorship game you lot are playing is getting really sad. I've been moderated several times today. Except the one where I criticised the left wing of labour. balhamu Is never even close to being offensive and is always polite about nick and the moderators unlike most and he has been moderated. bravesouter is fair as well and CEH has been moderated several times recently as well.
Be honest with yourself you must have noticed that CEH has had his comments posted at times when there were dozens of posts submitted but awaiting moderation (his posts were moderated even before posts numerically before his).
This seems to be only true of one poster, you don't get moved to the front of the moderation queue and neither does balhamu or any of the other posters who viewpoints are pro-government.
CEH himself has even picked up on it and commented on it.
But anyway to bring this back on-topic, I think it is a worrying state of affairs, and even if it is a crime to "conspire to leak" what would the burden of proof be on conspiracy? If someone came up to a MP and informed him of the existence of politically embarassing information, would it be conspiracy to ask if he could provide evidence to back up the claims?
If that is conspiracy then the law is wrong. On the same note would it be a crime if a member of a political party was a "double agent" for another political party?
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Make no mistake, our system is the envy of the world. It is this fragile and sacred contract, or a close copy of it, for which opposition politicians of all colours risk their lives when they challenge Dictators. It is hope for what we have here which trumps fear in the minds of those who leave their houses to vote in the polling stations of Africa. It is our Parliamentary Democracy and the freedoms it enshrines, not a bank rescue and a few sound-bites, which are our true and enduring claim to leadership in the eyes of the world.
On Thursday, the State police force entered Parliament in a forceful act of assault. They seized an MP, and by taking documents, curtailed the freedoms of the people who they are supposed to serve. Whether by reason of accident, bureaucracy gone mad, or politics a line has been crossed and the wound cannot be left to fester, no matter how politically damaging this might be for either side. Those responsible must be brought before the house immediately, and the supremacy of Parliament must be re-asserted.
That this happens, and happens immediately, is the responsibility of each and every MP. It is the debt they owe to those that elected them, and it is a matter above all politics. No party line, no press release, no fluffed enquiry or hidden compromise is sufficient answer. The spin doctors must be sent home for a while, and every individual MP must stop to consider what it really means to sit in that place. It is only by the supremacy of Parliament, that politicians of every side enjoy the freedom to debate, to spin, to disseminate, to rule and to riot on behalf of the people who put them there. If, in years to come, their grandsons and granddaughters are to sit in the same seats as the conscience of a future generation then it will be because of the courage and tenacity of those MP's who realise the significance of the events of the past couple of days.
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It makes you wonder if there actually will be a general election in the next two years. Looks like quite soon the armed forces and the police are going to have to decide whether they are here to defend the State or the Government of the day.
Could there be a Yeltsin moment approaching?
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Were counter terrorism officers used simply because they have nothing to do? If this is the case some ideas where they might be usefully employed:
1. Send them on a prolonged foreign "holiday" to either Afghanistan, Iraq, any African country that will have them or topical Mumbai. Will they be able to hack it against real terrorists?
2. Get them to clean the streets, canals or rivers of Britain.
3. Investigate all the Russian oligarchs resident in Britain that pay no tax to the UK, but that Putin wants extradited back to Russiafor various illegal and repugnant activities.
4. Police the toughest areas in UK towns and stamp out the drug culture in the UK.
Any other suggestions?
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Gordon Brown's clunking/iron fist
Will encourage us all to resist
Labour's rotten regime
(It's like a bad dream)
Which one day will cease to exist.
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I notice that this story has now been removed from the front page of the website and from BBC News.
Nick Clegg described this in as 'a mayday warning for British democracy' - but apparently that's not news.
Tony Benn has described it as marking the beginning of a police state in Britain, but apparently that's not news.
Yesterday, Liberty has reacted with dismay and posed a series of questions that need immediate answers, spoke out, but apparently they're not news.
But of course, only one person's views count for the BBC any more - any Gordon Brown doesn't want this story to be covered.
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Nick you seem surprised because of the opposition to your views. Lets agree the you have always supported the labour view, indeed that is the confessed policy of the BBC. I can,t believe, if you are half the journalist your position deserves, that you hadn,t realized we viewers knew. This labour govt, has taken the policies of both facist and communist regimes. Take control of the media, police , and the army. Well the army is neutralised by the contrived wars it is fighting. The police as shown by this event are a wing of the labour party. The media though has not quite made us as gullible as you thought . Hence , your surprise that we haven,t swallowed your initial analysis. You would make a better image for yourself and your ego if you now really find out the truth, who knew and when.
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It took someone long enough to agree with my earlier comments on the mechanics of policy and implementation. A better policy focus from the Tory front bench instead of corrosive populism would be helpful.
Some may disagree but the general thrust of the Tories has been to oppose national security, economic, and social policies just to score points even if that causes damage, and Cameron has to take responsibility for that.
Cameron's what Texans would call "Big hat, no cattle", and instead of inflicting that ego on the rest of us he might want to try fixing it or give way to someone with more maturity. Sooner is better.
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I think most of these commentators are rushing leming-wise down a blind alley.
I believe the police acted as they did, in these very exceptional circumstances, only with the well considered and absolute certainty that they were doing so within solid legal bounds, and indeed in the interests of Parliament and the public.
There is clearly something more here than meets the eye, and the facts when they reveal themselves will I'm sure make nonsense of all these observations.
Facile' dictu.....
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Is it not time that we went back to the convention - admittedly not hard and fast by any means - of the Speaker being a member of the opposition? George Thomas and Betty Boothroyd were both outstanding examples of the Speaker's craft, solidly Labour, both of them but exemplary in their lack of bias and ability to control the Commons' more kindergarten aspect. The PM would not get away with his tractor statistics nonsense if either of them were in charge!
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207 derekbarker
"Dont you think your being just a tad OTT, I mean there's one MP, not a whole bunch, well maybe not yet, being investigated."
You're missing the whole point, Derek.
Your argument of "well, it wasn't everybody in the country who was arrested for going against the government line" is akin to the "I was only following orders" defence.
Both of those defences are invalid, and very very sinister.
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I see messrs derekkbarker and charles-e finally got their 'lines to take' so were able, belatedly, to join the blog.
Yawn!
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I'm wondering who on these blogs is working for Derek Draper, you know the guy who went to work for the Labour Party to take charge of an online rapid rebuttal unit, designed to kill off damaging stories circulating in the blogosphere.
Any one any ideas, could there be a Derek here, could Charles E or DerekBarker be this guy. After all it takes nerve to rebut the stink that is coming from the arrest of Green and to put it bluntly they're pi**ing into the wind. All that remains to be seen now is how far the stink goes as I'm sure the rats will start leaving the sinking ship called HMS McClown to spill the beans and save their backs.
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croydo wrote:
It makes you wonder if there actually will be a general election in the next two years. Looks like quite soon the armed forces and the police are going to have to decide whether they are here to defend the State or the Government of the day.
We are a long way from the government banning a general election.
There is also no evidence that the government even knew about the investigation before hand, personally I think this is unlikely if the speaker of the house did and senior tories had all been made aware but it is certainly possible that someone minor in the government was told but didn't consider it important enough to inform the Cabinet.
I do feel that the Cabinet's initial response to this has been lacking - it seems to be the political equivalent of sticking their hands in the air taking two steps back and saying "Not me gov!". However, members of the Labour party have rightly condemned the move.
The leaks made were embarassing to the government but haven't endangered national security (if anything they have highlighted flaws in our security protocols!) and the worrying thing is that if our representatives can be arrested under these rules then what hope do we have for a free press - will we see journalists taken in dawn raids? Again, personally I doubt it. My expectations is that this will lead to a tightening up of the law.
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mark_w_elliot@375"Be honest with yourself you must have noticed that CEH has had his comments posted at times when there were dozens of posts submitted but awaiting moderation (his posts were moderated even before posts numerically before his)."
No I haven't. As for the messages that take longer to moderate than the rest. I don't know why that happens. There is a disciplinary action where some messages are checked more thoroughly. Maybe thats it. But I don't believe in any conspiracy BBC or Labour. Sorry I'm of topic but I said everything I could say about this subject in one message but unfortunately it was moderated.
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'383
So by "there's more than meets the eye", we mean all shut up and ignore the overturning of protocol because of a nod and a wink?
Are you in governemnt by any chance?
#382
If you can't address the issue of what happened yesterday maybe you should find a blog that wants to debate Tory policy, because you sure are running hard away from facing up to what happened yesterdays aren't you?
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#382, Charles_E_Hardwidge,
You said "Cameron's what Texans would call "Big hat, no cattle", and instead of inflicting that ego on the rest of us he might want to try fixing it or give way to someone with more maturity. Sooner is better.".
what then would they call Gordon Brown, maybe 'Big head, no brain' or 'Big hat, nothing inside' or even 'Big hat, cow chip'.
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A selection of stories that the BBC sees fit to promote over of this issue;
* Two elderly people found dead
* Trainee police officers arrested
* Woman gives birth after assault
What next? A skating parrot?
Pathetic BBC, really pathetic.
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#385
Getrid, Is it normal to pre-empt a police investigation?
History always throws its conspiracy theoryist at us, building bonfires and storing gun-powder just happens to be a sinister manner to gain support.
Do you trust the police-force?
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# 382 Charles_E_Hardwidge
You say: "Some may disagree but the general thrust of the Tories has been to oppose national security, economic, and social policies just to score points even if that causes damage"
I don't think this is a fair analysis. I can't see anything to suggest the Tories "oppose national security" - but they have opposed anti-libiterian policies put forward by Labour.
The incident with Green is obviously unconnected with terrorism, yet the police use their powers to search an MPs office in Westminster. Even Tony Benn has said "once the police can interfere with Parliament, I tell you, you are into a police state"
The ID cards are another aspect. Many feel these are expensive and will do nothing to improve security, given that the London bombers were British.
We also have more surveillance than at anytime in history, with local councils allowed to intercept phone calls and emails.
People who question these measures do not oppose National Security. In fact, quite the opposite.
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Nicks report misses the most important implication and throws up a nonexistent justifying comparison.As most have noted the real issue is that the police have used a catch-all piece of law to harrass a member of the opposition.To further insult our intelligence we are told Brown and Smith knew nothing.The govt seem to be keeping their head down over this and as someone has said maybe they realise they have gone too far? Either way judging by the strong feelings of many here there should be significant fallout.Always thought the idea that we are moving towards a police state was exaggerated but now not so sure.The actions of a very unbritish form of quasi-political anti-terror police seem to be increasing in boldness.History teaches the anti eventually becomes double speak.Very worrying as our socio-economic fabric is about to become extremely frayed.
Rebuild Britain has its work cut out!
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SO15 is such a clumsy designation for the counter-terrorism squad. May I suggest Security Department, or SD for short?
So far, we have seen 'counter-terrorism' legislation used to check what rubbish goes in which bin, to trap shopkeepers selling alcohol to the under-aged, and now to arrest opposition politicians.
Under those circumstances, SD has a rather nice historical ring to it...
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#377 croydo
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nick Clegg gets it wrong again. He is quoted in the press today as saying "This is something you might expect from a tinpot dictatorship, not in a modern democracy".
This is a tinpot dictatorship. Who voted in this Prime Minister? Look at the abuse of power.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
why are comments merely pointing out that the Police followed normal procedues being moderated?
It is a fact that the use of the anti-terrorist squad was unusual BUT if this was Industrial espoinage or theft of private persons documents or more pertinently if a person was arrested on suspicion of the above and his e-mails implicated a third person - then ALL of the Police activity is entirely normal.
e.g - they arrest you,take you to a Police Station,question you with a Solicitor present,can detain you for up to 24 hours without charge and invariably will bail you to reappear at a future date - to allow further investigation and conference with the CPS.
It is a norm under these circumstances for fingerprints and DNA to be taken - to cross check with Police records etc.
Those are the facts!
Clearly Damian Green has received tip-offs - he has not denied it-it remains to be seen and discovered -where from
That a whistleblower has been arrested and questioned - that is a fact
So whilst this is unusual for MP's - it is NOT unusual for the rest of us....
I suspect it suits Greens friends to create a media storm
If however,he is found guilty of the serious charge of requesting documents be stolen/leaked to provide information - and I would stress that is NOT currently the case BUT may be- then clearly there is a case to answer.
No amount of hyperbole is going to change or speed up the process of the law!
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Dear Nick,
You were right that your blog generated fury and outrage on all sides yesterday. This was an elementary call to make, even before you had 'cover' from MPs of all sides and other press on the issue. (I don't really buy the Green/Churchill link excuse.)
That said, I respect you for moving to redress the issue.
You are right also to recall your cash for honours reporting: you always put the government side clearly and well, but you were also prepared to call a spade a spade. People respected you for that.
Reading between the lines of your post scriptum, you obviously came under a huge amount of pressure from Labour for sticking to your principles on the cash for honours issue.
I respect that this may have been extremely difficult: no scoops, less ministerial contact threatened, and worse I'm sure. Perhaps having been through that, you have subconsciously become more reluctant to call issues as you see them, especially when they do not present the Government in a favourable light.
In other words, you have been, to a degree at least, 'knobbled.'
Perhaps it would help to bear in mind going forward that MPs of all parties, including Labour, need you as much as you need them. If ministers or others start to threaten less contact etc. when they disagree with you, they will ultimately suffer more as they will not be able to get their 'narrative' across to the public as effectively. They will also respect you more if you have the courage of your convictions.
This in turn should actually help to increase the quality of debate: too often recently Labour have been allowed to get away with trite tripe, even when this is patently what it is. If you have the courage to call them out on this, they will be forced to respond more meaningfully and will take your questions more seriously. This goes equally of course for all parties.
Anyway, I respect that you do have a very difficult job to do: that said, it does have its compensations and fascinations.
Finally, it is very sad that as noble an institution as the BBC felt unable to lead on this critical issue yesterday. Instead you were forced to play catch up and follow. This isn't where such a proud and independent institution should be. 'Things can only get better' !!
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393. At 1:40pm on 29 Nov 2008, derekbarker wrote:
Do you trust the police-force?
-----------------------------
No. Do you?
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At 12:57pm on 29 Nov 2008, derekbarker wrote:
#349
Simondav, look any Joe the plumber can tell if a hospital is in need of cleaning ect.
Are you saying that someone like David Davis, entire responsibility is to sanction leaks for his and his parties own political gain.
Labour as well as Conservative have gained from leaked information in the past. Any MP has the right to question government policy, and to find the truth, as long as it does not compromise national security, or put sensitive personal information into the public domain. I agree that all political parties should promote a positive agenda, as well as showing up problems if they exist. No government of any colour has the right to suppress politically damaging information, and at this stage I am assuming that Damian Green is only 'guilty' of annoying the government. I could be proved wrong, but Robin Cook was not arrested for using leaked information detrimental to the Conservatives, or for having opposed the reasons for going to war in Iraq. Public scrutiny is essential for a healthy democracy. I am no supporter of any political party, just a supporter of a healthy democracy, and I am in strong agreement with people like Tony Benn and Liberty.
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#377 croydo
I have often wondered if "the plan" hatched by GB would include under the guise of national security/emergency a reason for not holding a general election in the next 18 months or so. However, this is not the moment.
But if there was a big terrorist incident or great domestic upheaval requiring masive police presence on the streets to quell public uprising then such conditions could fuel a momentum for "indefinite postponement".
I am quite sure that events at the beginning of the year in pakistan are being studied quite closely, to see if certain parallels exist. In a way having contentious blogs such as these can also be used to foment anger, and then who knows what may happen....
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OBEDIENCE ORDER ORGANISATION
The justice minister, Mr Straw, bears an uncanny resemblance to The Children's TV character
The Demon Headmaster
His other motto was "Curiosity is the curse of the human brain!"
Is this the explanation of Mr Green's problems?
I think we should be told!
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Don't worry Mr Robinson!
You WILL be assimilated!
Resistance is futile!
;-)
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Ref 387 - who is Derek Draper.
It could be derekbarker because his blogs replicate the 'message' word for word
It certainly is not charles_e who, being a systems developer (his words), is more likely to give the words to a Draper rather than parrot someone else's.
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Trumping up excuses to arrest the Opposition? It's high time we gave the Gordon "the fisting clunk" Brown the boot.
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Britain's Zanu-Labour shame
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#405
Simondav, I enjoyed your post and you do show a real sense of maturity.
Simon, during the 1980's the thatcher government drove through some very terrible legislation.
Driving a wedge between the public and the police-force is as bad as it gets.
Todays society still bares the scars of that thacher term, which in turn, have caused many policing problems.
Look the police have acted, they have arrested an MP the case is still on-going.
I'm pretty sure your not saying that MP's are above investigation, these are difficult times and the last thing this nation needs, is a collapse of confidence in government and the police-force.
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The fact remains that we are in a struggle for our own future freedoms. It is the job of the opposition to question the perfomance of the government at that time.
This continuous degrading of our civil rights is part of their project to combine the world together, under one world government.
George Orwell was right and many other writers are being proved right. What has become of our nation over the last 11 years? for us to sink to such a lower level of humanity, to erode our god given right as a public presence, but still get lied, cheated and bullied into submission.
What was done to Green was done for a purpose to control their own lies and spin, and to scare the leaks of truth that the public get little insight of.
What ever party you support, what ever way of life and earnings you take, its seems that our government take orders from elsewhere. If you actually look at what happened to America after 911 and what that administration did, with its changing of its own constitution, is no different to whats happening now here in the UK.
This government has a lot to answer for, and pathetic claims of ZEN and total biased opinions from a corporate body like the BBC explains exactly to me whats going on in this nation of ours.
Piece by piece they will errode our civil liberties, and destroy our understanding of our democracy.
Anyone with any sence of whats actually happening in the world today will understand that this is just a game of cards, run by them with power and money.
Sure blame the Conservatives for not chasing the facts up correctly and not showing proper opposition, but arrest them for it? NO
Thats not the job of opposition, its their duty to hold the government to account.
I agree, this government knew very well what the special branch was doing. And sooner this Government and the New Labour Project is dismantled by the people the better!
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derek barker
There is already a collapse of confidence in government.
Jeez. You're so busy living in the 80's that you haven't noticed what's been happening in the last year or so.
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Another thing that concerns me is the matter of the accountability of the Police before Parliament. Police are officers of the Crown. Outside London, the Speaker of the House has ruled that "the day to day administration is in the hands of local councillors", however, accountability to local councillors is restricted because the Police are officers of the crown. Catch-22. Is this acceptable? I don't think it is.
In London, the Metropolitan Police are the direct responsibility of the Home Secretary, but here again Parliamentary accountability is restricted, as successive Home Secretaries have refused to give MP's details of the police forces activities before Parliament. Is this acceptable? Parliament has allowed police accountability to become dangerously weakened. We have given the Police too much power and have not strengthened the counterbalance - the need for Parliamentary Scrutiny. The Police are now a Law Unto Themselves, and in this respect, our constitution is rotten. Indeed, the Home Secretaries in this matter have since 1829, developed a position where they are not accountable before Parliament viz. the Police and Police actions....and thus the police can in theory be used by the Government for political purposes, and Parliament would have no way of finding out. The Home Secretary claims to support the "Independence of the Police" - what she means is she supports the independence of the Home Secretary and her control of the Police before Parliament. It is time we reformed this section of our constitution, and made the police accountable before Parliament, as indeed all servants of the Crown ought to be. We can see from today's actions that the lack of accountability before Parliament is downright dangerous. The Police have accrued too much power. Parliament, as we shall see in due course, have been neutered, and I predict that the Home Secretary will refuse to answer questions regarding this matter before Parliament.
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Derek Barker, Charles_E and anybody else.
If Cassius or another of the bloggers who are - apparently - plants of the Conservative party were to offer to debate you, online in a live webchat with a sensible choice of moderator would you accept? Or find someone from a pro-government standpoint who would?
The motion could be set clearly and by agreement; and written submissions made in addition to the live debate.
I ask this because there are some really important points at issue here from some great contributors and I think readers might be led to believe that some genuinely held opinions are actually the work of party spin doctors.
That would be a great pity.
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I don't normally post comments on blog pages, but I feel such a sense of outrage on this. Some people have questioned if MP's are above the law, and I think Tony Benn last night implied that in a sense they are (or at least should be). So long as they are conducting the proper business of the House - which in the case of the Opposition is to hold the government to account.
Nick please do not let this assault on our democratic ideals pass by quietly. As the Americans say, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
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393. At 1:40pm on 29 Nov 2008, derekbarker wrote:
Do you trust the police-force?
Hey Derek youll like this, 2 Londons finest out on patrol
Now forget about the filming issue, which is a whole different subject. Just consider for a second the professionalism, the respect they demonstrate and the quality of the individuals in uniform.
The question should be... Do I ALWAYS trust the police.
The answer has to be NO doesnt it.
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#413
Derek is it Barker or Draper,
You state as if it was a fact that "Simon, during the 1980's the thatcher government drove through some very terrible legislation.". Whilst I'm sure that any far left union activist of that era e.g. Arthur 'King' Scargill would agree with you there are an awful lot who don't and since she also got elected three times it means she had the majority behind her. Personally Nu-Labour's 'one new law a day' legislations have been far more damaging vis a vis the catastrophic financial state the UK is now in.
As for "Driving a wedge between the public and the police-force is as bad as it gets.", when there is a distinct political flavour in their actions and it's timing, all bets are off. There are a large number of Nu-Labours laws that have driven the wedge between the police and the public so that's where you should be looking.
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In a way it is fortunate that an opposition front bench spokesman, who might become home secretary if the Tories win the next election, should be a victim of the anti-terrorist legislation. His personal experience of what can happen when the police decide that some sort of terrorist threat might be involved, might make him have a wiser approach to these matters in the future.
Fortunately for him he was only detained for 9 hours. Presumably the police decided that they would not claim that they required the full 21 days to analyse the contents of the backing stores of his computers, as they are entitled to do.
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re: 413, derekbarker
The DraperDrone tries to conceal that he is in fact a DraperDrone.
No-one's fooled.
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Hold the executive to account. Not to self-service a particular party's own agenda. That is an abuse. - And all parties have done it.
It should not allow MPs to be immune from police investigations. It is likely Green is innocent from anything serious, which is what the investigation will prove.
What if it was something more serious, though? What then? Would it still have been an affront to 'liberty' that the investigation happened?
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I havle long been a passionate defender of the BBC. I stiill am. Unlike some on the right, and maybe some in new Labour, I do not want us to be dependent upon the organs of Rupert Murdoch for news or anything else.
BUT that means that, as a willing licence fee payer, I must play my small part in holding Auntie Beeb to account.
At the moment, the BBC is too willing to let the government set the agenda, and if the biased moderating of this blog is any indication, in too much fear of government disapproval.
Time we had elections to the BBC governors based upon some kind of single transferable vote system. No-one who has been a member of/donor to a political party in the past 5 years should be eligible. Governors then to take an oath to uphold the independence of the BBC.
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#102 phoenixarisenq
Your posts are not politcially correct - where Damian Green was born is irrelevant. The point is he is an MP.
What may or may not have happened in other circumstances you mention are also irrelevant - they did not.
What is to be hoped is that the reaction of outrage would be the same in either case because they were an MP. Other factors you point to are irrelevant.
The rest of your post is quite reasonable and well put - just cut the irrelevant stuff and people would likely not refer you.
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#416
Shellingout, If you want to protract the argument then do so, I see no problem with your lack of substance.
By way of chance? do the tories have a policy to remove the police-force as an active part of Britain's security?
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This whole episode just goes to show how politicians metamorphosise into self important hypocrites as they climb the rungs of the political ladder.
No one in the commons has benefitted more from leaks than Gordon Brown, when in opposition he made good use of a huge number of leaks and put them to good effect to belittle and harass a beleaguered and failing government.
They helped him turnout the old Tory government and for good reason.
Well Gordon what goes around comes around and now its your turn. If Nick had any intention of reporting this story properly he would have pointed out the complete hypocrisy of the current governments position.
In all probability this will prove to have been nothing but a warning shot across the bows of any future whistle blowers and no doubt somewhere in the mix will be an indication that its linked to the war on terror. The fact that counter terrorism officers are even involved has in fact already implied this.
Michael Martin also embroiled in this affair is also a fantastic example of this transformation principal.
He started life as wee lad from the slums of Glasgow as poor as a church mouse.
He now earns 137k, his pension is worth 1.4M. He has the best grace and favour apartment in Westminster, He pays his wife 25K a year for unlisted duties and his daughter was recently removed from his staff in light of a change in the rules on disclosure. His primary home in Glasgow has no mortgage but he still managed to claim 17,166k last year in running costs Oh yes and his wifes spend 4k in taxis fares a year. We also pay for a full Sky TV package for him. Even his son was eased into the Scottish Parliament on 50K pa
Despite earning all this he gave the Polish ambassador tea on February 19 and still thought to claim 3.77 on his expenses.
This is why you need a dam good clear out every 2 terms.
Now its time for change. I say give the Tories a go, they cant get much wrong in 4 years. By which time we will be able to see how they perform, if its badly then we can all reverse our decision.
But who seriously can vote for another 4 years of this shower?
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409. sashaclarkson
Sasha
I fear your warning has come too late.
The implants seem to be working well.
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What the media have not as yet highlight for me is one of the more serious aspects to this matter, that of the Police seizing MPs documents that could include correspondence from constituents. If I write to my MP about a matter I want that confidential, if one of Mr Green's constituents has written to him about the police, could the police now have access to that letter?
quis custodiet ipsos custodes - "Who will guard the guards?"
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While I feel sorry for the way this MP has been treated, people should remember that many ordinary people have been treated in a much worse fashion over even more trivial things by anti-terrorism squad officers.
On the whole, the entire Special Branch of the MET behave like they were out of the Sweeny, they swagger, bluster and bully. This is the reality facing many innocent people who are arrested and grilled for many, many hours with their rights curtailed by this Govt. under the cloak of fighting terrorism.
We seriously need to roll back the laws and re-instate the freedoms we all had before this draconian controlling Govt. machine came in.
Also, it highlights the way that the MET is now seriously out of control and needs to be broken into smaller sections and be under more control and scrutiny to stop them abusing their powers. When an MP gets arrested, the country should wake up and realise it is high time to make a change, NOW!
Remember, tomorrow it could be you or a friend or family member who is treated in this way for having the nerve to contradict Govt. policy.
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...halfway to reality, it's much much worse. Thanks to Nu-Lab, Britain is ruined.
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What's going on Nick, this is arguably the biggest political story in years and the BBC seem to have lost their nerve.
I've always turned to you in these times for well reasoned and impartial comment but you've really missed the boat on this one.
No ministerial involvement, do they really think we're that stupid, is this what it's come to.
Very worrying times indeed, please don't lose courage.
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Ha ha saddos
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417 - UtinamHaberum
Very good point - hit the nail on the head
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@424
"Hold the executive to account. Not to self-service a particular party's own agenda..."
But the problem is how do you separate the two? Yes, a lot of what goes on in Parliament is self serving party political nonsense. However I'm sure a lot of Labour supporters in the 1930's thought Churchill's opposition to appeasement was "self-service [to] a particular party's own agenda". Only the benefit of hindsight made it clear otherwise.
That is why it is such a dangerous precedent for the Police to interfere in the workings of Parliament in any way. The freedom of the Opposition to oppose without fear is paramount.
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#293 Hiddenranbir
Would you have felt the same had Green (or Brown before '97) been your own constituency MP and the Met taken away his computers, his email service and your confidential correspondence with him?
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Go steady on Charles and Derek some of us get a bit of entertainment with their opinions.
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#294 jonathan_cook
"That is a great set of questions...... all of which I fully expect to go unanswered."
Me too, but not only "Duff" Gordon but also Jacqui S and Speaker Martin are going to be squirming as they're asked. The first few points of order alone could delay the Royal Opening on Wednesday or even result in it being postponed.
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derekbarker
Take a look at a couple of your last posts - yu'll see I'm right.
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Since I first compared Gordon Brown to Ieyasu Tokugawa in this blog the BBC ran a programme, The Shogun, and the right wing have slowly been consumed by paranoia. I'm not saying that opening my mouth and the wider politics are linked but things do go around.
The right wing tend to be prone to agression and paranoia. It's just part of their psychology, and a lot of the guff I've seen firing out from the Tories seems more like their own wet dreams than anything else. If they push any harder they'll give themselves a nervous breakdown.
USENET is full of kooks, and parliament and the media seem to have caught the same fever. Perhaps, that's the media age or the fact we don't make anything anymore. But, I think, folks would benefit from calming down a bit and taking their mental wellbeing more seriously. World's crazy enough as it is.
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#307 dhwilkinson
"Tony Benn and Diane abbot are Left wingers who seem see politics as an intellectual game. They were all right when Tony Blair was there to rebel against but now I think they would prefer to take their unrealistic principles into opposition."
Wow. There speaks the true voice of NuLab. You clearly have no principles at all.
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#312 sicilian29
See my #84 on the New ways into blogs thread and my #75 on the same thread containing more about HTML.
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Stealing our Democracy. How many more examples of having our rights ignored and shown no respect by this present governments are we expected to put up with. At local level and national level, irrespective who you are jo Bloggs or opposition Mp. Theis present government continue mailciously to steal our democracy and police, survillence. What ever happened to our friendly helpful local and national government putting `people first'. The example of Damien Greens arrest is just another emaple of this constant eroosion of our civil liberties. And what has happened to Damien Green is happening at local government level and in our communities. Government seems to think there are no boundaries to intervene into peoples lives and will misue any policy/legislation to justify its actions. Who is defending our liberties and our rights?
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Here's a little thought for the Derek Draper droogs who are making light of what's happened to Green. I guess it's not too late for an official complaint to be made about the number of leaks made to the press and BBC about the pre budget speech a few days ago. Come on you UK residents, make an official complaint and keep us informed about whether the police investigate it or bury it. If they investigate it we can look forward to a number of government ministers being arrested and their computers searched. Now that could really reveal something I'm guessing.
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Interesting...
The Sky News web site main headline is "More Fury Over MP's Arrest" - it's nowhere to be seen on the BBC News front page.
Do I have to get my news from Murdoch now? Is Auntie that concerned about her licence fee?
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The right wing tend to be prone to agression and paranoia. It's just part of their psychology, and a lot of the guff I've seen firing out from the Tories seems more like their own wet dreams than anything else. If they push any harder they'll give themselves a nervous breakdown.
HOGWASH
Everytime you reply it amazes me how arrogant and ignorant you are.
You really do live in your own space and time.
Your not Gordon Brown are you?
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There is now a need for all who believe that government must be accountable to assert the rights of a free Parliament.
It is the duty of all Members of Parliament, whether this be the Commons or the Lords, to unite in condemnation of this vicious attack upon the sovreignty of the legislature.
Our constitution is unwritten. The advantage of this is that it is allowed to evolve and flex with circumstances. The disadvantage is that it's valued customs and practices are not always treated with due respect by those who either do not understand or who do not want to understand the need for a delicate balance between the Executive and the Legislature.
I think the Courts have been well able to demonstrate their independence from both and long may that apply.
Now we have a situation in which the armed wing of the Executive consider that they have every right to interrupt, disturb and disrupt the activities of a leading opposition figure. Not only that, they think nothing of breaking into this individual's offices and removing confidential information which constitutes correspondence between a Member of Parliament and his constituents.
This is not just an assault upon the dignity of Parliament but a vicious attack upon the people of this country.
The best way out of this situation is for the police to back off, return the material they have expropriated and apologise. I suggest the government does the same.
Without that the nature of political discourse in this country will both coarsen and harden. This government will be the loser if it does not calm the matter down.
The real shame of this is that often supporters of the Left accuse the Right of putcshist tendencies articulating the Pinochet regime as an example. This can now be seen to be a tendency for all governments fearful of challenges to their authority.
The crisis in modern Britain is not just a recession it is a crisis of government as well. The pre-Budget Report was wholly insufficent to resolve either our economic difficulties or the deeper rotteness of the state of Britain.
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#346 laughingdevil
Please read my #437 above. If you still feel the same, then either you've been very lucky in never needing your MP's help or I'm afraid you cast your vote for the wrong individual last time.
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"Having covered the cash-for-honours case (rather more vigorously than the government was comfortable with)"
Gosh, that's very worrying - you really must try to keep the Labour government comfortable. I must admire your ability to not get angry about this arrest. By the way, what's the difference between a leak and an unattributed briefing? Perhaps, you'll deal with this in a forthcoming piece, giving recent examples.
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#350 Pigsty Hill
"May I say how bitterly I resent the accusation from Nu-Labour apparatchiks that anyone concerned by this abuse of power is a card-carrying Tory?"
Hear, hear.
FWIW, I'm an old, un-merged, Liberal.
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Arrest of a member of the Opposition for revealing something the government wanted to keep quiet ? I thought I was reading a story concerning politics in a place like Zimbabwe, China, or Belarus.
If we are to have a dictatorship, let our dictator be Her Majesty whose first order should be 'Off with Brown's head'.
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There are powers at work within the Labour party machine unseen by the electorate.
These people have taken politics to it's lowest form in the eyes of the public.
The Labour machine needs stopping because it is dangerous beyond comprehension.
Just look at Dr David Kelly.
There was no way this man commited suicide.
Something sinister within the Labour party machine along with the American secret service was responsible.
We cannot allow this despicable type of act to undermine the very democracy millions of men died for during two world wars to protect.
The Labour party machine needs stopping and the man who should be forced to resign on this occasion is Michael Martin.
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re: 452, richwhome
Well said, sir!
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@448 stanilic
Very well said. I think it would be best for all concerned here to take the party politics out of it.
A simple affirmation from the Government that Parliamentarians have both a right and a duty to investigate government policy and operations, including receiving and acting on information leaked by civil servants, combined with an apology from the police for over stepping the bounds.
Unfortunately it's hard to say you're wrong, but hopefully the police have the sense to see it now.
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Aside from the political/democratic aspect, there's also the criminal aspect which hasn't really been mentioned.
When 9 anti-terrorist (some armed) police officers bust down your door, ransack your house, drag you away, and interrogate you for 9 hours, all because you said something that was embarrassing for the government, then you have to wonder whether or not any witnesses would ever report anything to the police ever again.
I mean, if you were a witness to a real crime, but you knew that if you reported it you'd get your dna put on a permanent database and would be put on their "watch" list, then would you want to talk to the police? I know I wouldn't.
Being shot seven times in the head at point blank range for looking foreign, being carted off at gunpoint for going against the government line, and then the police turn round and simply say "don't worry, we did what was right" - I don't think the police in london will get much co-operation in future from the public.
So next time we get a real crime happening and everyone keeps quiet and refuses to talk to the police, keep in mind that the witnesses are not necessarily shielding the accused, they're more likely shielding themselves as a witness from being terrorised by the police in the future.
In the Green case, it was clearly the police themselves who were the terrorists.
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It was always at night--- the arrests invariably happened at night. The sudden jerk out of sleep, the rough hand shaking your shoulder, the lights glaring in your eyes, the ring of hard faces round the bed. In the vast majority of cases there was no trial, no report of the arrest. People simply disappeared, always during the night. Your name was removed from the registers, every record of everything you had ever done was wiped out, your one-time existence was denied and then forgotten. You were abolished, annihilated: VAPORIZED was the usual word.
Orwell, 1984
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Are all my comments to be referred to the moderators now?
I have asked twice why Nick has made no comment on impact of the event itself - just an attempt to minimise it by comparing it to an entirely different situation that labour found itself in.
And then this, a comment on the reception that his original blog received.
How about a blog on the substance of the matter.
And while you are at it, how about an update on mandleson/oleg ?? You seem to have gone quiet on that since the tories are no longer implicated.
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442 browndov
I am the voice of me! I have principles but that doesn't mean I have to join in your collective insanity. Keep on digging that hole for yourselves.
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I follow so many good points, but two in particular deserve further comment. sashaclarkson (88) talks of Kiev and his relationship with our country.
Orvillethird (185), an American gives us a perspective from acountry which Great Britain has mentored as it has it has grappled with the meaning of the word 'democracy' through its short, frantic history.
GB has sat at the high table of world affairs and our politicians and people have pontificated to the world about how democracy should function and what standards should apply. It is part of our psyche and most of us are immensely proud of it.
Yet, within 8 years we have discovered something unpleasant about ourselves, that most of us believed had been extinquished in the learning time of past centuries: our body politic is every bit as capable of behaving in the very way we describe to others as authoritarian, uncivilised, malevolent, spiteful.
We have watched, helpless as a coterie of our leaders facilitated not only a war, but a decent man to his death in circumstances which, though systematically removed from national news or enquiry, continues to trouble the ordinary man in the street; we have seen how state inspired propaganda has made us feel less safe than when some of us stood but 5 mins walk from an IRA tube train bombing at Oxford Circus; we have seen how arrests previously made with proportional force to the scale of the incident are now media staged displays of the full armoury of state thuggery; we have watched in horror as the dream of multiculturalism so hard earned by a sceptical public is shred by ill-conceived detentions, harassment and anti terror legislation which has achieved no more than to disenfranchise the most patriotic amongst us; we have had to watch as those who defended us in 1939 are ridiculed by faux nationalism preached by people who fail to understand why we sought to defend ourselves, so vapid is their democratic sensibility.
We have contrived to lose every moral imperative we once offered and now, in an act of staggering stupidity, we now find ourselves in a Constitutional crisis on an issue which serves no party within our Parliament, now or into the future, irrespective of who might win forthcoming elections any good.
Not only do we now have to re-evaluate the role of speaker of the House, but we also have to somehow, out of this wholly avoidable mess, have to create the situation whereby whoever is in opposition after the next election is not further subjected to the treatment afforded to Mr Green and his family and his constituents for otherwise we might as well close the doors of accountable Parliament and allow the Executive to pin their dictats on the Town hall wall at their pleasure.
I am trying hard to avoid the thought that there are those within New Labour who may have found Mielke's East Germany a romantic idea and I am also far from convinced that there are not those within the Conservative party who might a strain of non democratic blood within them also, and as there is indeed an malignance within our police force (and or military) then we must seek to isolate them as fast as possible, firstly immediately halting this absurd travesty of an 'investigation'.
For the moment, in advance of the required Commons Select Committee hearings (which MUST be televised live, so important is this issue), many of us are wrestling with the idea that the vilification of Elizabeth Filkin was but a taster of the real mores of the Prime Minister, his Home Secretary( so visibly out of her depth as she is) and the less visible, yet omnipresent purveyors of what is now a trend towards truncating our democracy in any meaningful form.
In summary, this latest crisis will not just go away by indefinitely cancelling a coroners hearing or by a simple withdrawal of the charges when there is another suitable all-embracing news story like Mumbai. The stakes are now far too high to pretend otherwise.
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#307 dhwilkinson
"Tony Benn and Diane abbot are Left wingers who seem see politics as an intellectual game. They were all right when Tony Blair was there to rebel against but now I think they would prefer to take their unrealistic principles into opposition."
That is among the most sinister things I have ever read in a comment or elsewhere.
I can't stand Tony Benn and his views - never have been able to - but I have always admired his principles. I am sure that there are many others like me.
You do not even seem to recognize an honorably held principle, or to understand the need for them. That is the really worrying thing.
I notice that neither you nor any of the other Government apologists on this thread have replied to my suggestion that you organise a live web debate. I suspect that you wouldn't be quick enough on your feet, or that without the "agreed line" you might be lost for words.
Never mind, people will draw their own conclusions.
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