Talking tax cuts
So, everyone appears to agree. The recession's going to be much worse than originally feared. Borrowing's high and going to get much higher. There is, therefore, no money to spend. So, now's the time to spend money on cutting taxes making sure that there's even less money in the exchequer.
Hold on a second. How can this possibly be?
The answer is that politicians and economists are all asking themselves the same big question - what if big interest rate cuts don't get the economy moving again? What, in other words, if the central banks prove to be impotent in the face of the looming crisis? Then, the argument goes, it would fall to governments to act. In the jargon, if a monetary stimulus fails they will have to try a fiscal stimulus.
Now, if you're looking to stimulate a failing economy you're not talking about the sort of figures that are normally bandied about on Budget Day - the odd couple of billion here or there. Economists talk, instead, of spending one or two per cent of national income. Now, one per cent of British GDP is about £15bn. That's where the talk of tax cuts on that scale has come from but that's all it is, so far at least. Talk.
It is, however, talk that Gordon Brown's fuelling. This morning on GMTV he said:
"What I am determined to do is to get all countries round the world trying to get their economies moving again and one way you can do that is by putting more money into the economy by tax cuts or by public spending rises. But that's something that we've got to look at in the next few weeks."
As I've written before, it is still far from clear whether he is simply trying to put a better gloss on the dreadful borrowing figures which the chancellor will have to unveil soon or whether he's seriously contemplating borrowing much more than he's forced to in order to stimulate the economy. Bear in mind that if ministers did nothing in the forthcoming Pre-Budget Report taxes would actually rise - the £2.7bn rise in tax allowances to end the 10p tax fiasco was funded for one year only and the controversial car tax (VED) reforms are looming.
Meantime, the Tories are on the brink of unveiling a tax cut which, they say, will help keep people in work. This is the same party that was only recently saying that "the cupboard is bare" and which boasted that they wouldn't promise tax cuts they couldn't afford. In the FT today, the shadow chancellor insists that they've not shifted their position arguing that "Spending our way out of recession will not work. Targeted tax cuts would help but they must be properly funded". Until we see the colour of their money it's hard to assess how different their ideas really are.
The Lib Dems are the only ones who've consistently proposed major tax cuts for some time (though they're paid for by their tax increases) They propose to cut the basic rate of income tax from 20p to 16p with the £18bn cost being paid for, they claim, by closing tax loopholes for the rich and increases in green taxes. They, like the Tories, argue that tax cuts should not be paid for by extra borrowing.
So, there may be agreement on the need for tax cuts to help stimulate the economy but there is none on the type, the scale or how they should be funded.
Some countries have, of course, already unveiled stimulus packages. The Australian government, for example, recently pledged to spend 10bn Australian dollars - estimated to be just under 1% of their GDP. In stark contrast with Britain, however, they're had budget surpluses for the past decade.
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Gordon Brown is a joke
He has thrown us out of the boat and into the deep waters and then is slowly throwing us a lifeboat- and then claims to be our savour
What a joke!
How about calling a general election?
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Nick
Tell you what, I'll just apply for as many credit cards as I can get and max the lot right up to the limit. I won't have to worry about my fuel bills or christmas presents this winter, or about paying it all back this month. If it's good enough for Gordon, its good enough for me.
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The need for tax cuts has been self-evident well before this crisis struck. The reality has been that taxation policy has made the poor even poorer whilst the rich have been allowed all sorts of privileges.
Now that the better-off have put the economy onto the rocks I don't feel any of their privileges were justified and almost feel like demanding my money back.
However, nothing is to be gained at this stage by being vindictive. What we do need to do is revise our entire attitude to public spending and taxpayer funding.
Current public spending must be restructured so that it feeds directly into the economy. Dogma must be abandoned in favour of practical measures that support the generality. Measures designed to pleasure the bureaucracy, such as ID cards, need to be phased out.
Additional taxpayer support for the economy in the form of the pump priming of technology is also needed. This need not be that expensive and could provide the new industries we now badly need. Changes to corporation tax to facilitate R&D and similar investment would not go amisss.
In all of this it will be possible to balance the books over time. However, in the short term there will be deflation and we need to support the economy by generating demand. Classic Keynsian economics will help when we hit the bottom next year.
I can see that there needs to be a major refocussing of public policy. This can only be done over time. We need to plan for the consequential slump.
We need more industry and less government. We need more productivity and less pontificating. We need less taxation but more effective public spending. We need less privilege and more commitment to the common good. This can be done but it will need a National Government as how else can a common sense of purpose be achieved?
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What a refreshing change it would be for Gordon to give back some of the money he's been taking from us via stealth taxes all these years.
I'm not holding my breath though.
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Dear Nick
House prices are to fall further over the next two years according to the Halifax Building Society, this adds to the Arguement that Housing should be removed from the GDP Calculations, as house prices in many cases are Ficticouis , and over inflated wich show in the crisis of economics.
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I'm in favour of the VED reform, though I seem to be in a minority. I replaced my 11 year old car late last year and the already announced reforms played a part in my choice; already my tax is lower than it was and with the reforms should get still lower. If the reforms don't go ahead and I end up paying more tax instead of less I will feel somewhat cheated.
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Brown? Tax cuts?? The Smoke and Mirrors shop should stock up very quickly.
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Right, now I knew what to do. Went off to the bank for a great big overdraft. Never mind that I'm unemployed, a senior citizen and without assets. The bank refused to oblige, traitors! Next step, using the 'plastic' I' bought up half of the new shopping mall and hired a truck to carry the junk home. Due in court soon, but not to worry. I have the perfect defence - I'm following my prime minister's advice, I'm very patriotic!!!!
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There are 3 obvious problems -
Shortage of money in the system.
Job losses.
and critically - Fear is present in the consumer. This fear is there having been deliberately wound up in order to push the 'bail out' action through.
Anything which addresses these problems has to be welcome.
It is inevitable that there is a bill to be paid in the future, that is not the problem, the problem is stopping the slide. If the downward trend is not stopped then the downside is potentially very much worse. Tax breaks can be removed as quickly as they are put in, they are flexible.
Housing may be becoming more affordable but the much publicised statements advising a 25% drop from peak will inhibit anybody, who can avoid it, buying a house until there are signs the bottom has been hit. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy and a somewhat bizarre thing to say when along side it is the other industry comment that no forecast on housing can be made. The housing sector is making a rod for its own back. It is an unsound strategy as the inertia will build up and the next thing consumers will be looking for more than a 25% drop. The overview can become habit forming in the same way looking for continual growth became habit forming with some.
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Why is the Government talking tax cuts ? Simple. It's hoping to get re-elected.
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Gordon Brown's bloated, inefficient public sector is the albatross hanging around our necks. Brown spent all the money we had on the public sector, then taxes and borrowed in order to spend some more, and that was when times were good. Now we're heading into a recession and his solution is to increase public sector spending once again. Personally, I would prefer a longer and deeper slump, if it causes necessary economic reforms and leads to a more stable economy coming out the back of it.
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So we need £15bn in savings?
Easy, scrap the ID cards scheme and the NHS computer database.
NHS database saving: £12bn
ID cards scheme saving: £5.3bn
That's £17.3bn saved for tax cuts.
Can I have a job at the Treasury now?
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He can do what he wants, i think he is already resigned to the fact that his policies have been found out and he will always be associated with it.....
The labour party would have to get rid of him as leader to stand any chance at a general election, and the public would need to see new faces at the top.........
Yes we need tax cuts but they will need to be massive to offset the food and energy price rises in the last 24 months.....and the already planned massive hike in car duty.
Then when people have paid them bills and only then will they think of "stimulating" the economy.
This country is bankrupt and will be for many many years to come and seeing GB's face will only serve to remind people who the architect of it all was....
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The proposed tax cuts are a vote catcher not a panacea to revive our economic fortunes. The money that is intended to go straight into the pockets of the poor will not feed back into the economy in the way intended because it will be used to pay off debts and save for Christmas and annual holidays needed to mitigate against wretched conditions at home during the rest of the year. Granted it will lower the personal debt of these poor unfortunates during these terrible times of financial hardship but it will do little for the 'real economy'. If the 'real economy' can be stimulated all of us will gain. This is not the way to achieve that aim in my opinion.
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I know, why not apply an extra tax on all those who voted labour and cuts for those that didn't.
Thus aligning obligations with responsibilities.
Labour voters have got what they asked for.
Watch out for the financial crisis coming our way.
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Tax cuts in the form of:
Scrapping ID cards - at least £4 billion
Putting trident on hold for 5 years - another £4 billion
Tell Europe we will not be paying quite so much to them this year - say £2 billion less!
Cutting fuel duty by 5p - dunno how much this would be but it would bring prices down across the economy.
Cutting VAT by 2p - it would be a cut of a few billion and mean business has more money.
Now these would cover the cost of the tax cuts. When do I get to be Chancellor?
It's all well and good talking about hard pressed families, but it is business that needs to get us out of this mess. And currently business is really hurting. The housing market does not need further stimulus and it should be allowed to plummet otherwise we will be seeing a major correction over many years.
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How about getting rid of the following:
1) Abolish Stamp duty
2) Reduce VAT
3) Remove Congestion Charge
4) Reduce income tax
5) Get rid of liscence fee
6) Make council tax fairer
These are a few adjustments that will make people better off, make us spend more and help boost the economy
Taxes always go up- how about they come down for once
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there is a simple reason behind the talk of taxation cuts and it is to win the public over in readiness for a general election.
we all know this countries borrowing has maxed out and every one will have to help repay the loans by taxes etc, so why the talk of cuts.
this government loves stealth taxes and giving people a reduction in income tax will loose the government nothing becouse they will raise duty on tobacco,alcohol,fuel and then add tax onto power and paper a 1 percent raise in vat will offset any losses on tax cuts and the government will make a profit in the process.
do those in westminster realy think the public is that gullable sadly they do and to be honest if they can fool there mindless supporters then there battle is won.
we nolonger have a government for the people in this country recent events have shown that we have a neu labour government for the upwardly mobile.
they harp on about a classles society but they themselves are creating a social class system that rivals communist russia under stalin.
old labour was a party formed for the working people of this country with there unions to help and improove the lives of the common folk, this neu labour party is out for themselves first and seem to have this "im allright jack" idealism that will and has been killing this country to the point we are dependent upon europe to survive.
its time the people of this country did something.
in the words of V " the people should not fear the government, the government should fear the people."
ok people its time to make the government fear us.
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The problem with the measures that have been taken and the ones mooted, is that time is needed for the effects to kick in. A consumer spending increase may occur in the short term, but the more elusive quarry confidence is a different beast altogether.
To illustrate:
About 20 years ago at a CBI Conference, a businessman spoke about the success of his jewelry chain that hehad painstakingly built up over the previous two decades through hard graft and convincing the consumer that they had confidence in product. This was shattered in a stunning 15 seconds when he revealed that essentially the jewelry he sold was c**p! Within months the chain was finished.
The analogy is apt as you can talk the economy down in minutes, but talking it up will always take years. The problem for GB is he does have years, only spin. What is more worrying is that the one so called good bank has just announced a $4.3 bn write down and that they think further write downs are forthcoming in the financial sector. The article did not indicate if these were UK specific or not.
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Nick,
This is getting surreal...........
1. We have to borrow more because Brown ramped up our debt during the good times. That is why the 'cupboard is bare'.
2. Conservatives and Lib Dems have been talking about tax cuts for a long time.
3. 'Spending' - is not the ONLY way out of a recession. A balance of initiatives is needed.
So your post gives the Lib Dems a pat on the back, kicks the Conservatives in the balls and gives no comment on the architect of our financial doom, Gordon Brown?
Really??!!!
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Some years back GB promised to make huge savings by getting rid of 100000 public sector workers - what ever happened to that, and did anyone hold him to account? What/where were the savings?
Why is there not a huge media fuss made of the "£120 per person refund" that is only going to be a one-off? Surely this warrants some major public attention by the Opposition - or are they just as insecure as the Government?!
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does this government understand anything other than spend spend spend and that with money they have not got.
If they want to stimulate the economy why not give everyone access to the same tax free benefots as MP's - if we could all furnish our houses from the John Lewis list tax free on expenses I am sure there would be an immediate retail boost.
For that matter why should our leaders, local and national, be insulated from the pressure faced by the rest. Salaries should be based upon a reasonable average and pensions influenced by the performance of the pensions achieved by the rest of the population.
In the current downturn it appears that less of us will be forced to shoulder a heavier burden of financing our leaders.
That would not be so bad if they had demonstrated competence and value for money. But as it is the similarities with a training scheme for lower management are hard to avoid.
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To coin a phase I smell Fear in the New Labour Camp.
Oh sorry! Didn't see that cow field, it must be something else I smell.
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"The Australian government, for example, recently pledged to spend 10bn Australian dollars - estimated to be just under 1% of their GDP. In stark contrast with Britain, however, they're had budget surpluses for the past decade." - that says it all about Brown's mismanagement of the UK economy.
But in answer to your main question "how can this possibly be?" the answer is simple - there is a general election looming and the main parties are falling over themselves to bribe the electorate to get their votes. The real pain is being saved up for after the election when spending cuts and tax rises will be absolutely necessary, whichever party wins the election.
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My general view remains that interest rates and tax cuts are not a solution in themselves, and that both R&D and employment security must be made more robust. The days of making easy pickings from finance are over, and looking at creating an economy that focuses more on real products and quality of life is key. This may require a bit of imagination and belt tightening but I prefer that to the alternatives on offer.
I've just bought myself a digital camera. I've wanted one for years but only just got around to it. The immediate benefits is it gives me a practical hobby that gets me off my ass. I can turn all the theory I've read about and vague notions into something demonstrable. I have something to do with my spare time, it doesn't cost anything, and there's a whole slew of knock-on benefits. It may not grow GDP but that's a crock anyhow.
Bling and tax cuts are not important in themselves. The key issue was an remains how people approach things. I'm not looking at being a David Bailey or winning awards. My focus is on taking what I have and the opportunities in my city to develop technique and screw the best picture I can out of what's available. The means I have to stop daydreaming and yapping, and haul ass. The same is true for PLC's and the man in the street.
You do what you are, etcetera.
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Brown needs to cut tax as it is generally so high that people are being strangled by it.
The Labour party can cut tax to zero pence in the pound and I would still rather poke my own eyes out than vote for them at the next election. I have never hated a party like this before, there are so many front benchers I would love to meet in a dark alley!
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Tax cuts won't work. The marginal change in take home pay will quickly be absorbed in day to day spending. It won't stimulate the economy but - since most people live beyond their means - just makes a marginal difference to family debt.
The US Republicans favour tax rebates, where households receive a cheque based on a retrospective tax cut. This also doesn't work as sensible people use it to pay down debt (i.e. no new money in the economy) and others spend it on consumer goods which sees most of the money heading towards asia.
To stimulate the economy it is best for the government to spend the money on capital infrastructure projects. That way the money stays in the country, the country gains an asset, and there is invariably a large private investment that will follow.
This is the time to initiate a new high speed rail network (which will stimulate the economy over 20 years) and for a more immediate effect we still need to build the 200,000 houses that we needed before the credit crunch. These actions will recreate the boom that accompanied the expansion of the railways in the 19th century.
If we use the money wisely now we can have a scandinavian quality of life and a solid economy for when the global economy picks up.
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this talk of scrapping things
you never mention scrapping MP's pay rises and there perks,
let alone paying for a customs department that has been made redundent thanks to european rulings,
or pulling our armed forces out of conflicts that are costing money and lives, no
but hit things that already have cost enough to start.
if this government wishes to allow peoples from overseas live here make them pay for the privilage.
tax sports that seem to have money to waste.
there are so many ways this government could raise money and still reduce income tax but are they fair???
the majority voted these people into power and have to accept their choices its too late to start crying now, just sit back and accept your punishment like good little voters.
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Will Gordon Brown and David Cameron be making any statements regarding the X Factor or Strictly Come Dancing? I've come to expect them to pass banal comments on inane matters and ignore them when they attempt to comment on anything else!
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Gordon Brown has banged on for the past few weeks about the current economic crisis being caused by irresponsible lending i.e banks lending to people who have no hope of paying it back. He has then gone on to say there must be greater control/regulation over lending etc etc. So what he has just done? - cut interest rates to stimulate the housing market. Therefore people will be taking new mortgages out on properties which are forecast to lose their value for at least 1/2 years to come. They will therefore straightaway be in negative equity and will not be able to pay their debts if they lose their jobs etc. Isn`t this how all our troubles started in the first place and GB now wants to encourage more of the same by borrowing to give away by way of tax cuts. This country is in debt up to its eyeballs. We get the same old Labour answer when the econony goes belly up as a result of their mismangement - borrow to spend and, "lets just keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best". Its never worked before so there is no chance of it working now. Despite denials from No10 I am convinced Gordon is going to go to the country probably in Feb 2009. Because if he doesn`t the consequences of him staying in power will be the annihilation of Labour at the Polls and the melt down in the British economy which will years to put right. If I were David Cameron, I would start preparing now and get rid of George Osborne and replace him with William Haig who has the ability to run rings round Alisitair Darling. Osborne will have to pay the price for his recent folly and Cameron will have to put country before his friendship with Osborne. Its called leadership.
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Wonder if the bbc will highlight how gordon brown squandered any chance of a 'budget surplus' in the past 10 years....
brownomics 101
overspend in the up turn
overspend in the down turn
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The rub is in the last paragraph, "Australia. like most other westernised countries have run a surplus in the good times"
The much vaunted fixing the roof while the sun shines.
WHEN is Gordon Brown going to be held accountable for his economic mismanagement.
Nick you should ask Gordon one question time and again until you receive a proper answer before moving on.
PMQ's should be exactly the same. EVERY non Labour question should be the same until an answer is given.
The first Question should be why were you so irresponsible with your economic management during the boom years?
It should be put to Brown in every interveiw no matter what subject his spin miesters want to cover. and it should continue on and on and on and on and on until he actually answers
never ask him any other question.
Waterboard him if necessary
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As they would say in his homeland, that's Scotland by the way. Gordon Brown "would sell his Granny" if it would get him re-elected.
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This is madness. We in the UK have had fiscal stimulation for most of the last decade thats why we're in such debt. The last thing we need as a solution is even more debt.
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Brown is at it again, going for the sound bite now, and hoping that when the details come out everybody will have forgotten exactly what he said.
Wanna bet that some of the tax cuts he's promissing will already have been announced, as a means of staving off the 10p tax fiasco?
Also, he's busy proposing the whole world re-stimulate their economies at the same time and in the same way as he is proposing to inflate ours. What if they don't? What if all that happens is that he gives us more inflation, and we splurge the lot on foreign imports without those exporting countries doing anything?
If he's going to follow this disastrous route, at least ensure that any benefits that accrue stay here, one way or another.
Plus, naturally, it goes without saying that these are unfunded tax cuts, if in fact we actually get any, and will be inflationary, and will doubtless be clawed back sooner rather than later, by whatever means possible, and remove any last vestiges of a reputation the man attempted to build for himself and his policies of being prudent and acting in the national interest.
He's supposed to be making the right long term decisions for the future of this country, or at least that's what he was saying six months ago.
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Tax cuts funded by borrowing as a desperate attempt to buy votes . . . . .
We've been here before, y'know. At the end of the Wilson/Callaghan regime.
Inflation took the sting out of the borrowing then, and I don't expect anything else this time around.
Tough for those people with no debts and a fixed income . . . there were a few in my family last time. Somehow, I don't think there are enough of them to decide an election.
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#25 CEH
Lots of people are doing what they are.....and still losing their jobs. What now Charles?
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Those are both good comments and help illustrate where, I think, the focus should be. Mere interest rates and tax cuts won't do a thing for that. Indeed, they can just make things worse as people absorb the benefit and give nothing back in an ever decreasing contraction of capital. This is why how we look at things and what we do is important.
I'm still of the view this recession is just a blip, and if business and government can come up with a more can-do and relaxed approach the pay-off down the road is going to have people giggling at how silly they were. It may look bad now but that's only because we're in it. Better days are down the road and it's important to remember that.
Calm down, relax, be happy. It gets no easier.
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"31.
brownomics 101
overspend in the up turn
overspend in the down turn"
You missed:
- achieve dismal value for money with "investments"
- add layer after layer of pointless bureaucracy, such as the endemic target culture
- reward your client groups (public sector workers, welfare underclass) whilst taxing the wealth-creating private sector into hardship
- move goalposts to make your policies look good (pfi off balance sheet, dumb down exams to make your education policy appear successful, have police reclassify crime to make it look as though we're all safer, etc)
- spin, spin, spin
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In stark contrast with Britain, however, they've (Austrailia) had budget surpluses for the past decade. - wonder why we did not have a budget surplus in a period of sustained economic growth? That might have been prudent ?
And make no mistake here - eventually we will have to pay back this borrowing - this is no 'magic bullet' and the only advantage to Labour is that they will be long gone and the next generation will have to pick up the tab.
Brown was NOT a prudent chancellor and spent OUR money (not his - our!!) like a drunken sailor and has the bare faced cheek to ask us to think well of him as he tries to clear up the mess he helped create.
And if wants an accounting perspective a fair value for him might be possible but a mark to market valuation - none
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Surely we don't want people spending madly again, and increasing their personal debt still further; and we don't want the banks pushing loans onto those who really can't afford them, in order to fund that spending. House prices need to settle back to a reasonable level, instead of ever escalating: inflation, we used to call it - perhaps it's a dirty word now.
We seem, with these proposed measures, to be headed straight back to where we've just come from. Can't somebody suggest something sensible? Something calming, that won't have people rushing out to buy things they don't really need, just to get the economy moving? Something that will stop the fuel and energy companies holding us to ransom? - because that would lower prices and the cost of living at a stroke, freeing us up to buy frivolities like food, and school clothes, and similar fripperies . . . Why will the government not exert itself on our behalf in this area?
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High borrowiing and high spending has got the public finances and the economy into a unholy mess.
Solution - high borrowing and spending.
Therefore, the right man for the job of getting us out of the mess ? It has to be the man who borrowed and spent us into the mess. It is obvious, isn't it?
"Those whom the Gods would destroy, first they make mad."
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Cutting VAT wouldn't prove anything. All cuts in VAT would be soaked up by supplier/producer price rises and Joe Public would gain not one jot.
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This looks like a scorched earth policy by Labour to try and ensure they are only out of power for 1 term.
By the time these tax cuts come into effect (just before an election anybody?) Its not labour but the conservatives that will have to find the money, labour can then claim that while they cut taxes the conservatives have not.
This has nothing to do with helping the country and everything to do with a cynical attempt to avoid another 18 years in the wilderness.
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#1. mr moe
Wants Brown out and a general election
Oh, and you think the other lot will:
1. win
and
2. do any better?
I want a National Government with all parties included to tackle this terrible financial and economic disaster.
Things to do for the National Government:
1. Scrap all Computing projects not yet finished (incl. ID cards, NHS Computing fro Health, various MOD, Foreign Office, Home Office etc. systems) should save at least 20 bn.
2. Stimulate spending by giving money to the poor and the elderly (they will spend it which is what is needed)
3. Cap house price multiples of income at 3.5 - short term pain but it will prevent interest rate falls going straight into house price inflation.
4. Halve VAT for six/nine months.
5. Join the Euro now so that our manufacturers/exporters have a level playing field when competing in our main market.
6. Withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan now - we cannot afford it.
7. Pay for the scrapping of old and inefficient vehicles and ban (or punitively tax) from sale new vehicles if they are inefficient.
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Every time you think Gordon Brown cannot get any more transparently cynical he goes and surprises you.
It's amazing isn't it. They win a traditionally safe Labour seat with a reduced majority but that's enough to send the ego ballooning out of control again.
This is a classic Brown political move. Claim he has managed the economy so prudently that we can afford unfunded tax cuts on top of bringing some public spending forward. When the other parties argue that we need to find savings in other areas of government label them as NHS cutters or that they 'can't take the difficult decisions' (oh the irony!).
This, I imagine, is being used as a trailor for a possible general election because as we all know the Glenrothes vote quite clearly signalled that the electorate has given resounding support for the great leader.
I just hope this latest attempted bribe hasn't lured the Tories into promising far reaching tax cuts beacuse if they do then we've walked straight back into boom and bust fiscal policy. Just about keep the economy on par by slashing taxes then have to raise them all the way through the recovery. Brilliant.
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The money doesn't mean a thing. The illusuary value just enables Australians to be a bit fatter while someone else is a bit thinner. On the other hand, borrowing more of this illusuary stuff focuses attention and takes pressure off other markets.
One could argue the Australian position is worse than the British position as oil economies have found that a pot of gold retards economic development and attitudes. Again, I argue, this is an opportunity if people want to grasp that.
People say they want change and wag fingers but the broken economic fundamentals won't fix themselves. That's an individual and collective issue, and challenges like this are exactly what's needed to propel change: if it ain't hurting it ain't working.
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addendum to #45
Do Public works
make the work:
1. use lots of labour
2. produce something of lasting value here
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From what I've read, GB is going to propose a new solution to his 10p tax fiasco (possibly not temporary this time), postponing the VED changes and a temporary cut in VAT. So, putting off planned unpopular tax rises (not the same as tax cuts) and forcing every business that pays VAT to recalculate their prices, and produce new labels, catalogues etc etc, only to have to do it again 6 months later.
Brilliant (not)! Still at least the printing industry will profit.
As for DC. Again from what I've read he is going to propose cuts in business rates, allowing businesses to postpone VAT payments, and a freeze on council tax. So, a tax cut, a bit of breathing space, and help for every home owner. This would also allow businesses to keep trading during the downturn and pay back any debts when we reach the other side. Almost like a National Business Overdraft (which by the way is a phrase I shall be trademarking!). Sounds sensible to me.
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Housing may be becoming more affordable but the much publicised statements advising a 25% drop from peak will inhibit anybody, who can avoid it, buying a house until there are signs the bottom has been hit.
25% drop from peak? In your dreams. It'll be closer to 40%. And if there is any variation on that guestimate it will be to the down-side.
Stop and think about those halcyon days of 2007. Average house price at six times the average wage. The average wage before tax that is. So more like ten times the average wage after tax.
If you don't eat. Or drink. Or maintain the property. Or go on holiday. Or drive a car.
Bear in mind too that these new houses come with a 10-year NHBC certificate. So you get to take out a 25-year mortgage on a house that's only guaranteed to last 10 years which, given the standard of construction and quality of materials used, is probably a fair estimate.
Yeah. That makes rock solid sense.
This whole pyramid of lunacy was only possible with insane levels of borrowing all-round. The time to nip this in the bud was 2001. Gordon should never have employed one million clip-board monitors on vast public-service pay and conditions. If he really needed to he should have made sure he was balancing the budget instead of borrowing 30bn a year just to meet the payroll of his expanded public service payroll.
It was the effect of handing out one million cast-iron jobs and the salaries that go with them (introducing 30bn a year of borrowed money into the economy) combined with the failure to 'take' 30bn a year out of the economy in higher taxes that lead to the imbalance that gave rise to the property bubble. All that extra borrowed money looking for a 'home'. Quite literally as it turned out.
Far from Gordon's doubling of the national debt being 'invested' in essential infrastructure it has simply evaporated into several million 4x4's, Plasma TV's and exotic foreign holidays. All long since devalued to practically zero. All we're left with is the debt.
And now, in order to try and stave of utter ruination for another 18 months his big plan is to cut interest rates to (near) zero, cut taxes and quadruple the national debt. Much is made of the creed of Gordon Gecko. 'Greed is good...'.
The creed of Gordon Brown appears to be 'Debt is good'. It was 'good' when the economy was going great guns (except it was never going great guns - it was all borrowed money squandered on ludicrously priced houses and the ephemera that we all thought we were entitled to as a result of our brilliantly timed property investment). And now, it seems, debt is good when the rug of consumer borrowing has been pulled by the banks and the economy is in the toilet.
The banks really have been hung out to dry by Gordon Brown haven't they? For a full decade he's been lauding them for their business acumen and for driving the UK economy forward. He's praised them for the prosperity at large in the nation. Not a single word of caution about imprudent borrowing. The second it all goes pear-shaped he's in full-on hind-sight mode babbling on about an era of irresponsibility and pinning the failure of his government to manage the economy on the banks and the yanks.
And as usual, lacking anybody with an enquiring brain, the BBC is four-square behind him. Yes. It was the irresponsible banks wot done it. And Cletus in Iowa with his NINJA mortgage. It's all his fault. Not the government. And their failed interest rate policy. Or their failed fiscal policy. Or their failed social engineering policy. Or their failed regulatory policy.
If I were Fred Goodwin or Andy Hornby I'd be spitting. They must have been bought off or warned off (we'll nationalise you and trash everybodies shares) from speaking out. A decade of basking in the sunshine on the reflected prosperity of the UK banks and when they need help he's using them as political pawns.
Why is RBS remaining independent when it needs capitalisation of 15bn but HBoS has to be subsumed by a bank that itself needs to borrow 5bn? Why do the Scottish bank's directors have to commit sepuku but Lloyds CEO, who himself has his hand out for 5bn quid, gets hailed as a prudent manager?
Give all the banks to me. The bank of U9461192 doesn't need any bailouts. I'm the most prudent one. I should be CEO.
What is going on? Who is separating the sheep from the goats here? To what end? Is it really as simple as trashing the Scottish banks to frighten the people of Glenrothes from the SNP?
The job of the BoE and FSA was to help the banks out on the quiet when they hit funding issues. Their job is to maintain the integrity of the UK banking system. It isn't to hold them up as a scapegoat for the failure of government policy, trashing the long-term reputation of the UK banking industry.
But Gordon Brown doesn't care. What's the long term reputation of the UK banking industry compared to his personal reputation eh? He's screwed up but somebody else must be held accountable. And publicly tarred and feathered.
A job the UK media seem only too happy to help him with.
Now they'll all suck their teeth and decide that, on balance, just printing money and deferring the paying back of debt is in everybodies best interests. No it isn't. It's in very few peoples very short term interest. Top of that list being Gordon Brown's short term interest.
That strategy will only work for another year or two tops though before our entire economy implodes for good. Long enough for Brown to wash his hands of the nightmare of course but not exactly in anybody medium or long term interests.
The fact is that we as a nation, government and individua,l have been living outside our means for the best part of a decade. It's been great. We've all had a blast. But now we have to grow up and assume the responsibility of paying it all back. It ain't okay to just go out, get another loan and hit the town again.
It's the difference between having a lost weekend and going in to work on Monday to pay for it all and being an irredeemable alki with a strawberry nose and urine-soaked newspapers for blankets.
Gordon Brown is just that binge-borrowing nut-case yelling at us at the train station to lend him some money for a cup of tea when we all know full-well he's just going to spend it on (economic) booze again.
Don't let him. Take the bottle off him.
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An enormous fiscal stimulus, at no cost to the government, could be provided by extending national insurance to all earnings, introducing a 50% tax rate on all earnings beyond £100,000 pa and diverting the £10 billion generated every year into the paypackets of average earners, poor pensioners and those on benefits. Labour should have done this in 1997, but it is still not too late.
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The most effective boost to the economy is to increase the resources of those who spend. There's no point in capital gains or inheritance tax giveaways - that's for the rich, or at least the relatively affluent, and such money would largely be saved.
The way forward quite simply is to confirm the new personal tax allowances for the future, and then to increase them significantly. Workers on modest incomes will be the biggest winners, although there is something in it for every taxpayer.
Its redistributive - which is part of what Labour is supposed to be about, and it supports those with income - from earnings of investments.
Temporary reductions in VAT would, apart from any EU issues, eventually have a cliff edge effect to create a new problem in the future.
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Time now to evalute and scythe away the useless quangos that infect this country.
The colossal amount of cash Labour have wasted on stupid things that have no value and no return is the only thing the Tories have to highlight.
I find it offensive that there's money available for some nonentity civic bureaucrat to have taxis wherever he pleases, but our brave boys and girls in the forces have to spend their own cash if they want decent kit.
So tax cuts or no tax cuts; for me Labour is out on its butt whenever I can get the chance. I'm 26. I voted for Labour last time probably because my dad did and his dad before him, (and the alternative was Michael Howard). But I will never vote Labour ever again. Their mess will be inherited for generations to come.
I *so* want the opposition to be good enough though. I am positively willing it.
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Prime Minister Gordon Brown is cementing his position as the world leader driving our way out of this crisis. In a keynote speech delivered tonight, he calls on President Elect Obama to grasp the opportunities instead of withdrawing into protectionism.
Obama talks up the policy bling and presses flesh but his natural personality is deeply conservative and insular. Brown will not gain his respect or have influence if he kowtows, hence his strong man approach tempered with consensus.
Some people will lament over the bare horizon. Others will procrastinate by fiddling with patching holes in the boat. Meanwhile, Prime Minister Gordon Brown is seizing the spirit of winning by focusing on getting the ship to port.
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Grawth
I agree in principle with what you say but freezes and postponements in tax and council tax just tells me that it will all have to be paid eventually, and not written off.
If people can't afford to pay it now, how could they pay it in, say six months?
Not decrying your suggestion, just being objective.
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Once again, Brown has shown his true colours. Frightened by the ideas coming from the opposition parties, he has decided to adopt his usual tactic and steal the ideas whilst claiming claim credit for them. Maybe, if the polls show a Labour revival, he could call a snap election and regain power?
Sadly for him, the public know who is responsible for screwing the British economy over the last 11 years, just as they know who will eventually have to pay the extra tax to settle the debts incurred by Brown's incredible appetite for borrowing.
No matter how much he tries to spin the focus over to his miraculous handling of the Global Crisis (and how he alone will lead the World in Financial Reform) the sad truth is that it was Brown who refused to build reserves during the 'boom' times and has left the British Economy unable to weather the 'bust' times.
So please, before you do any more damage Gordon, call a General Election. Then we can get rid of you and seek the true path to economic enlightenment. One that works and does not burden our children and their children with a debt-ridden economy.
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If this Government is so keen to help small business why is it still INCREASING the taxes on small companies?
We have already seen an increase in corporation tax for SMEs from 19% to 21% and this goes up to 22% in April 2009.
At the same time the tax on large companies is coming down from 30% to 28%. Obviously paid for by the increase in the small company rate.
As always look to the small print with Gordon Brown because he says one thing but we pay for it in another way which he does not mention.
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So Charles thinks "money doesn't mean a thing" and it only has "illusory" value enabling Australians to be "a bit fatter" while others are "a bit thinner".
Charles, can I suggest you take that argument round to the people who have lost / are losing their jobs, or have seen their mortgages skyrocket because they were allowed to borrow too much, or have seen their gas, electric and food bills rise repeatedly.
I humbly suggest that if you try and tell them that "money doesn't mean a thing - it's only illusory", then they will probably introduce you to their imaginary fist, because one thing is for certain, the likes of Tesco Barclays and British Gas etc don't accept illusory things - only cold hard cash.
Still, maybe they could pretend the street they're now sleeping on is a soft mattress, the cold doesn't really exist, and the rumbling in their stomach isn't really hunger, it's just a band of marching pixies practising for the carnival.
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Public Schools such as Eton and Harrow (Winston Churchill) are famed for producing pupils with strength of character. They are character building schools.
Conversely there are some daft twits coming out of comprehensive (like, I mean, like, you know what I mean, like, whatever, innit).
I know people of all ages who went to both and I have to say those who went to Public School have outstanding character and leadership qualities. Why do you think our public schools are world famous? Why do you think people from overseas send their children here to attend them?
There is a kind of inbred snobbery in trying to knock those whose parents thought highly enough of their children to send them to top schools. Actually more parents could but don't because they prefer to spend their money on designer togs, mindless computer games, holidays in Lanzagrotty etc.
ITS CALLED JEALOUSY.
Chalk and cheese.
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@55
He is more like Ahab persuing his Moby
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Following the success of John Sargeant on Strictly Come Dancing, perhaps Nick will be asked to take part in the next series.
Maybe Peter Mandelson can also be put in charge of the music, just to make sure that Nick always dances to the new Labour tunes!
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62.
ha ha Oh Mandy, you came and you gave without taking NOT
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People are worrying about job security at the moment - so are reluctant to spend.
To give people confidence, EMPLOYERS need to be encouraged to maintain staff levels. Employer tax cuts can be effective - 1. making it cheaper for employers to keep staff employed; 2. encouraging inward investment by foreign companies - improving the situation further.
As much as I personally would welcome income tax cuts, these tend simply to improve the life of those in least difficulty - ie those still employed. So not a sensible place for a government to spend our money in a time of need.
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Shellingout,
That's just it though - the freeze in council tax would not need to be repaid later, because it is funded by savings already discussed when it was announced by the Tories at their conference.
Postponing businesses paying VAT should be (in my opinion) a bit like the student loan - you only pay it back when the economy is on the road to recovery. After all, if we insist on the tax being paid in full and on time, then all that happens is the businesses can't do it, because noone is spending at the moment, and so they go bust. If you allow them to wait until things pick up again then you can ensure the survival of most of the business, and therefore most of the jobs. You could even earn a bit of interest on the deferred payment and make a profit for the country.
National Business Overdraft. You heard it here first!
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I'm sure plenty of economists would argue that it's OK for the government not to worry about having to borrow more money than they should right now and to pump money into the economy via either tax cuts or increased spending, as the danger of recession is far greater than borrowing too much. Maybe they're right.
However, what bothers me about that is who are they going to borrow the money from? Didn't we get into this mess because no-one has any money to lend in the first place?
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Borrowing more money to fund tax-cuts?
This is the final part of the jigsaw to confirm that Labour have completely and utterly lost the plot.
Gordon is maxxed out, borrowing more through issuing gilts will:
a) increase interest rates
b) require MORE TAXES to pay for the interest.
In the end, we'll all pay more through higher mortgage and credit payments.
What is required are funded tax cuts.
FUNDED TAX CUTS THROUGH CUTTING GOVERNMENT SPENDING.
Here's how:
Scrap ID Cards and Children's Database = £8bn saved (i.e. money not borrowed) immediately.
Eliminate government waste and get rid of as many quangos as possible. They are thought to cost £60bn a year.
Get rid of half of them now, and half of the remainder in the following year.
That's £8bn saved, another £30bn in year 1 and another £8bn in year 2.
So that's £8bn, £30bn and then £38bn NOT BORROWED for every year.
Then use some of that to cut some taxes.
The tax cuts should be:
Cut employer's NI contributions.
Cut corporation tax for small and large business.
Keep the 10% rate permanately.
Increase income tax thresholds.
That would gut the unproductive wasting of our money and give it to the far more productive effort trying to keep people (taxpayers) in work.
People in work paying tax not receiving benefit.
Increasing winter-fuel payments, more tax credits are laudable but UK plc needs to protect jobs - no jobs, no tax revenue.
Brown has it almost completely wrong.
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#62 U11714077
I awoke to the terrible news on the BBC this morning that Heather Small has ben voted out of Strictly Come Dancing. I couldn't believe it......how could this have happened? My whole world revolves around this show and after hearing this awful news I lost my appetite completely and couldn't eat my Shreddies.
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Gordon has for abused the words 'spend' and 'invest' for so long, he no longer understands what they mean.
For over a deacade he has spent too much and invested nothing; but claimed to be doing the precise opposite.
Now is when the investments (that he never made) should be available to be cashed in, the cupboard is (as the tories say) indeed bare...
The tories are also absolutely correct that you can't spend you way out... although that is what brown is now proposing.
If there is to be more borrowing, then it has to be used for investment not spending.
Investing in the people who are going to turn the recession around by generating wealth in the private sector. Not by spending it on non-productive public sector make-work appointments.
It is not possible to generate wealth at the speed that Gordon spends it - that is a fundamental principal of socialism. However if he gets out of our way, then we can generate enough to keep the country moving.
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Perhaps Nick, you could ask just one probing question:
Given that we managed to put aside the grand total of NIL nil during the best financial decades most of us can ever recall.
Just when does Brown think we will we be able to pay back all this extra borrowing?
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Tax cuts will do nothing unless the public are sure its safe to spend. So all it will do is slow down the recession. If the gun has been fired and does not work then it will be deemed useless in the future.
So confidence needs to return.
We won't get that until there is a full and public understanding of what went wrong and clear measures to put that right. Otherwise we end up with Japanese style stagflation for a decade or so.
Perhaps when Obama comes in there will be an international sea change in this regard as although I think the UK government were complicit in the problems Bush is not going to acknowledge sub-prime and de-regulation as issues on ideological grounds. Therefore Brown won't take the blame on his own.
#59 Grawth
I so agree but perhaps its a new measure that Gordon will propose before the next snap election - bills can now be payed with monopoly money!
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Others will procrastinate by fiddling with patching holes in the boat. Meanwhile, Prime Minister Gordon Brown is seizing the spirit of winning by focusing on getting the ship to port.
That's probably where he's going wrong. You have to fix the ship before it sinks.
There was a show on TV last night detailing Captain Cook getting hung up on the great barrier reef. He has to 'fiddle about patching holes' too. Otherwise the ship would have been sunk and all his men drowned.
Then you can worry about getting to port.
The difference was that Captain Cook was a great sailor whereas Gordon Brown is apparently a great Labour Historian. Thanks Gordon. If I want an opinion on Labour History I'll bear you in mind.
You could be inadvertently right though. Prioritisation doesn't seem to be one of Gordon Brown's skills. So, for example, he seems more concerned with a photo op with Obama than a period of introspection wondering how he could have got it all so badly wrong and then asking some grown-ups to fix it for him like he did with the Standard Chartered chaps who engineered his bank bail-out.
It was all me! Me! My idea! Me! Me! Me! Tell them BBC. Tell them.
He really is like that Viz character in a sailor suit being indulged by his mum isn't he?
More of the grown-ups is what we need. Less of vain, reality challenged Gordon Brown.
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In July there were rumours that Alistair Darling was going to reduce stamp duty on houses.
Result - house sales collapsed as people waited to see how much they would save.
No there are rumours that VAT is going to be reduced.
Guess what's going to happen . . .
How NOT to spin.
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Talking of Mandleson
Bet theres a probing question or two here.
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Personally as the father of a three year old, the thing that would make me spend more, is more help with child care.
Child care costs for me have risen from £28 a day to £41 a day in just under 2 years so for 4 days a week now costing around £8400 a year, close to three times my mortgage (especially now interest rates have dropped further).
Apparently as my wife and I earn around £40k a year between us we are too wealthy to have any but minimal support from the government. The latest reduction in interest rates covers just over 1 day's child care a month - not exactly something to get me out and spending, especially as I work in manufacturing.
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71. megapoliticajunkie
Totally wrong... no point what so ever.
:-)
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69
Here you have the essence of a coherent Conservative argument. The only problem is that the person it should be directed to is David Cameron for his own recent tax proposals are very different. His problem in turn is that he perceives the audience he should be addressing to be the same one that Gordon Brown is addressing. These two are marking each other very closely. Handling the crisis to one's political advanatage is the name of the game until the next election and you can special-plead all you like.
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Given that we managed to put aside the grand total of NIL nil during the best financial decades most of us can ever recall.
I'm afraid you're being over-generous there to the congenitally over-borrowed one. If we'd put aside NIL in the 'best' decade then we'd have been in much better shape. We actually put aside minus 300bn. For 'investment'. Or to make the payroll and interest payments on our debt depending on how you want to look at it.
In addition we took on an extra 500bn or so of pension liabilities and, by our cavalier approach to finance, set the tone for our banks and voters too...
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#55 Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
"Prime Minister Gordon Brown is cementing his position as the world leader driving our way out of this crisis. In a keynote speech delivered tonight, he calls on President Elect Obama to grasp the opportunities instead of withdrawing into protectionism.
.....
Some people will lament over the bare horizon. Others will procrastinate by fiddling with patching holes in the boat. Meanwhile, Prime Minister Gordon Brown is seizing the spirit of winning by focusing on getting the ship to port."
Come on Charles, get consistent.
You constantly say that the British don't do leadership.
Brown is British.
Ergo, Brown's no leader.
Nonsense, isn't it?
I'm sure he's trying to get a bit of order into things. Just left it 11 years too late.
With his track record, he will probably "get the ship" into the wrong port, with a tarpaulin wrapped around the huge hole in the hull, and claim "Victory". Forgetting that all the passengers and most of the crew were obliged to take to the life-rafts, while he "gallantly" pushed ahead.
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How about the government re-introducing MIRAS on all new house purchases. It would certainly help lift the housing industry and be assured of giving the economy a boost across many sectors, ie service industry - legals, estate agency, removers etc and carpet, furniture and appliance manufacture and supply and would guarrantee a stimulas to the economy. I don't see any other tax incentive giving any guarrantees of us spending more or of creating much needed jobs.
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Why is it that the most obvious way of saving money without any pain to us here is never mentioned
LEAVE THE EU
Thanks to TB we will be putting in nearly £20 billion in a couple of years, leaving net contributions of nearly £8 billion. We could then scrap heaps of regulations, plus remove from our national ministeries all the staff we employ purely to ensure we conform to EU rules. The idea that the rest of Europe we stop us trading is ludicrous, as we have a massive trade deficit with Europe. People in our nothern islands would stop having to import milk from the mainland because Eu regulations forbid them from being self sufficient, protect our fishing fleets from being scrapped at our expense, while we are paying subsidies to Spain to replace them.
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The interest rate cuts do diddlily squat when nobody can borrow.
The only way to get to the other side, if at all, is to give direct cash to poorest to spend. It helps inflate the debt burden away.
However anyone with a mortgage, especially a tracker should be aware that it wont be too long before interest rates go into double digits as inflation is 'stoked' by this Government.
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#81 juliap
I was going to suggest MIRAS but I thought it might have been a Conservative idea, which would have been wide open to ridicule by the labour luvvies on here. It was that which helped us get our first home. It's a good idea.
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@75 thanks for something more to get my teeth into
Last week, in a statement to The Sunday Times, Peter Power, Mandelson’s spokesman, confirmed that Mandelson had discussed timber tariffs with Deripaska but said they had never talked about aluminium tariffs. Oh thats alright then!
He said Mandelson’s claim that he had “never” discussed EU matters with Deripaska related only to the time he was on Corfu.
Oh thats OK as well then, so lets be clear though, by on Corfu you do mean "on the Island of" and not "on the yacht of The Russian just off the coast of"
Peter Power graduated with Honours from Ally Campbell "Economic with the truth" Class in 2003
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Won't there be a problem with an income tax cut, given the situation with the 10% band problem.
Unfortunately, I cannot remember what is happening with the 10% band - has it gone? If it has gone, then a tax cut would be to bring it back!
Enlighten me please?
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Let's keep one fact uppermost in our minds as this mess goes from bad to worse. It's now widely acknowledged that the UK is the worst placed of virtually all the world's major economies to deal with perfect economic storm that lies ahead, tax cuts or not. This despite Labour's constant ranting (er, let's call that lying shall we?) about "The UK being well placed to weather the economic storm ...". On who's say so?
Gordon Brown has steered us into this mess using a compass set in a naive understanding of economics and, moreover, a dismal understanding of what makes people tick. On both accounts, he's demonstrated unequivocally that he hasn't got a clue. So now we're about to pay the price for Gordon Brown's hallmark mix of arrogance, incompetence and a Machiavellian pursuit of power. All the worst traits of a politician.
For his time as prime minister, Gordon Brown will soon be infamous for the catastrophic mess he's made of his, brief unelected stint in office. Why did he think he'd be good at it?
Ah well, serves us right I suppose: we get what we (don't) vote for.
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#82 cobber 950
Brilliant. I've always said that our contribution to the EU is too large. The country would save heaps of money and all those Euro MP's on huge salaries would have to find alternative employment. The boot would be on the other foot then.
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Anyone any idea why my post at 71 has been referred, I cant think of anything in the house rules that would have required this
I have not had a post removed before.?
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this country really is in trouble now.
last i heard, our biggest export was financial products!
our manufacturing is mainly for foreign companies, meaning the country only benefits in terms of shop floor and middle management
salaries and business rates. this is insignificant.
we have scant natural resources and we now have a dependency on services from abroad to keep our national grid powered, so as a country we are paying to keep the lights on.
the only thing that has improved recently in this country are the hospitals.
our education system is now a laughing stock compared to practically all other english-speaking countries.
tourism is massive for us as it means we get money from people who aren't being paid from our own treasury, but the prices are now astronomical and the quality of our service industry is still leagues behind many other nations.
the liberal democrat policy is farcical - they cannot seriously believe the super rich will stay here if the tax system becomes unfavorable?! also, a few billion will be spent within a year.
i don't believe this country will have a positive balance sheet for many years. apart from anything else, there are 1million civil servants. that must equate to at least £25billion a year in salaries alone!
how can we pay off the national debt if UK.com is making a loss?!
as a nation we need to go back to the drawing board and re-invent ourselves. we need a product to sell to the rest of the world.
i think we should invest whatever it takes in becoming the world leader of renewable energies and fuels, so we can at least be self-sufficient medium term and have something to sell long term.
another way to stimulate the economy, in stark contrast to mr. brown's plan would be to sack 10% of the civil servants - now that would create some innovation!
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Brown seems to believe his own recent hype that he's somehow the right man for the job. There simply is no rational case for tax cuts now. All it will do is make the recession (or even depression) longer and nastier. However the PM is just playing politics. It's quite clear that the employment report (due on wednesday morning) will be a complete horror story, and this is his motivation. I can't believe that any of the Treasury officials are advocating this madness.
Our home grown Nero seems to be lighting new bonfires rather than playing his fiddle.
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# 89 megapoliticajunkie
I wouldn't worry too much: it's been referred not rejected. I've had the same thing before, and if/when it's approved it'll appear - sometimes 36 - 48 hrs later. I think the mods like to check/substantiate references if you've made a reference to someone/where else that merits being verified.
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#15 offshorebanker
FANTASTIC BEST IDEA EVER ON THIS SITE.
LET THEM REAP WHAT THEY DOTH SOW.
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Here we go again with C.H.Hardwidge and his approval of the pathetic G.Brown.This just again proves to me that the real backers of new Labour are champagne socialist.
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Gordon Brown's individual personality type and Britain's collective personality type have certain qualities. If you examined them you'd understand them and the differences, and have a better grasp of policies and outcomes, and the process of change.
You'll note that I'm not explaining more or giving you much wiggle room. Simply, I've been down that road 1000 times and people don't listen. They have too much ego at stake online, and dealing with the arguing and negativity is a drag.
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Unbelievable.
Hazel Blears has the nerve to criticise anti-government posters and how they disrupt government policy. Now we have Gordon Brown on GMTV flying kites about treasury policy.
This govenment is criminally incompetent; the chancellor manages to trash the currency by blurting out that we are facing the worst crisis for a hundred years, then Gordon Brown repeats the trick on breakfast television and takes the gilt market with it.
They put in place a regulatory structure for the banks that gave the nod to lending geting completely out of control; like no other credit cycle ever before.
We are supposed to believe that 180% household debt to income is okay this time around because it's 'affordable' - it may well be affordable in interest payments but the debt is never getting paid down and now the underlying assets (house prioces) are in freefall.
'Affordable' debt was the excuse all the way up as the banks lent bigger and bigger multiples of salary all on the nod of the tripartite strurcture and its architect in chief Gordon Brown. The only affoedable thing was the interest payment - the debt is still a ludicrously hgih never to be repaid multiple of income.
What are they thinking of pouring more petrol on this blazing fire? This is an absurdly catastrophic and chaotic way to run a country; it's more Argentina than the UK.
When is someone from thje BBC going to stop towing the party line and confront these people with the fact that all our children will be paying this debt off for the rest of their lives?
This is reckless and incompetent government and irresponsible journalism.
Call an election.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
If someone is going to libel me or be rude, patronising, or incite more flamebait the post gets referred every time, and 90% of those referrals are upheld by moderation. Stick to writing good content and playing nice, and there isn't a problem.
Seriously, guys. Cut out the macho and insulting stuff. It's just annoying and drags this place down. It only takes a couple of clicks to bin it and creates more work for the moderators. And if a post has been deleted let it go. Banging on and on about it isn't going to change a thing.
Got that? Good.
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If everyone agrees this is going to be a long, deep recession then why the continued obsession with a 'downturn'?
The current interest rate cut won't be enough to get things going. People also need cash in their pockets with tax cuts and tax breaks but the question is how that would be funded.
It is a pity however that a bidding war seems to be going on at the moment. Everyone is jumping on the bandwagon.
I made the point over the need for a further interest rate cut and tax breaks a few days ago. And, as you point out, once again it is Vince Cable who seems to be talking the most sense.
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/3-isnt-enough-for-deep-recession.html
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The BBC News report that 'Trust in top politicians 'falls'' includes this sad little gem:
'However there were some improvements - 26% of those questioned said they trusted national politicians to explain the reasons for their actions and decisions, up 3% since 2006.'
Time to roll out the bad news... Now only 74% of the electorate don't trust politicians, down from 77%.
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Irresponsible lending is still out there.
As an insurance broker I received a request for loan protection insurance.
From an 84 year-old!
(Needless to say I advised them that I could not offer it - I do have principles)
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Nick
As soon as Mandy and Ali Campbell get their jobs back, the Beeb gets even more dumbed down. Is this just coincidence, or what.......
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Nick,
As ever, I notice another beeb blog that glosses over the constant change of political stance by GB/Darling on borrowing, perferring instead to have a dig at the Tory approach to tax cuts.
Will the beeb ever hold the Govt to account in an unbiased way? The sheer number of posts on this thread that question Govt actions and spin seem to indicate that your focus is off-beam.
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#100 theorangeparty
I'm sure that Ali Campbell and Mandy have advised Gordon that the word, downturn, doesn't sound as final as the word, recession. It's all about public perception......say no more.
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Brown's actions are those of a desperate man and the only thing he's interested in getting elected in 2009/2010. He's now resorted to blatant lies in attempt to hide his culpability in allowing the countries finances to be a terrible state even before the recession arrives.
Nick Robinson and other BBC/Guardian journos are desperate to keep this lot in power (for some bizarre reason) and hence yet another article from Nick trying to portray Gordon Brown in a positive light. Luckily not all people are taken in by this spin and this will lot will be out and gone for at least 3 elections come 2010 (he's not brave enough for 2009).
Words cannot describe how much hatred I have for new Labour and Gordon Brown and their betrayal of this country for their own ends.
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@99 re 98 Gee thanks for the honour hoggy
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#45 John from Hendon
Talk about one flew over the cuckoo nest!
You talk of a Government of Nation unity, who would Nue Labour bring? After all 12 yrs in Government and they are having to bring back disgraced Ex ministers and spin Doctors as they have NO TALENT whatsoever on the Labour benches.
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Why do some people on here keep demanding a General Election?
It must be obvious, as Nick obliquely points out, that 'Dave' and the hapless Osborne do not really have much of an idea.
And why should the Labour Government get off the hook via an election defeat anyway.
I assert that they are partly responsible for the problems we now face, so it is encumbent upon them to get us out of it - and if they fail - then 'Dave' and his motley crew* will by default, fill-the-boots, because that is the way the system works.
It is not ideal, in fact, it is nowhere near ideal but we English are stuck with it for the forseeable future because we suffer greatly from political ignorance and apathy.
No such problems in Scotland, believe me.
It would seem that English people would rather emigrate than try to make England a better place.
* Including a certain Michael Gove, yet another Scottish political professional plying his trade in England. I was reminded of this because Gove writes a column in the Scotland on Sunday newspaper. There was no byline to his piece stating something along the lines of 'Michael Gove is Conservative MP for {someplace} in England'. Maybe Scotland on Sunday readers know this anyway but it seemed like a surprising omission to this reader.
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Nick,
Quoting your post today - there are 4 lines of inquiry that Brown has not been challenged on.
1. "The recession's going to be much worse than originally feared."
2. "Borrowing's high and going to get much higher. There is, therefore, no money to spend."
3. "As I've written before, it is still far from clear whether he is simply trying to put a better gloss on the dreadful borrowing figures"
4. "In stark contrast with Britain, however, they're had budget surpluses for the past decade. "
What is your advice to the public?
How are we to judge anything that Gordon proposes if the media has not tested Gordon fully on these 4 points?
In order for the public to judge Brown's proposals, are we not entitled to know both the positive and negative impact Gordon Brown has had on these issues?
If the balance of impact is broadly positive, then Gordon can claim credibility and request our backing for his proposals and vice versa.
Or - Does the"media narrative" over-rule "public interest" journalism?
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Took longer than usual before the "bias" word was mentioned today.
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In what way does government policy and the general situation relate to what you think and feel? If the policy is sound and helping people, how does filling yourself with rage help things?
As for the Tories, I can't possibly support a party that can't come up with a better alternative or that just stokes hate. It's no solution to anything and, I suspect, why the media has turned off them.
When I'm stuck on writing some code, where's the use in throwing a hissy fit and blaming Bjarne Stroustrup for the issues with C++? There isn't, so I let it go and just get on with it. Ditto politics.
Life is easy. People just make it hard.
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Does this scenario seem familar to anyone?
Especially doctors.
Slowly poison the patient until it is within an inch of its life while pretending to be the carer..because thats your job and thats what everyone thinks you are doing.
Then, on the cusp of death you rush in and provide CPR and save the patient and bask in the adulation of your peers and many beyond.
Munchausens syndrome by proxy ring any bells?
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Nick
If these forecast tax cuts come though then I trust that you will insist that Gordon Brown provides you with a list of all of the hospitals and schools he intends to close over the next year or so?
That has been his standard riposte to tax cuts proposed by the opposition parties to date hasn't it?
What this whole debacle demonstrates (to me at any rate) is that the one principle which defines UK politics is that there are no principles.
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You talk of a Government of Nation unity
What have the Conservatives or Liberals got to gain from being tied to the incumbent incompetents? The Liberals have had their warning when they were courted pre-1997 with the promise of PR (its in the Labour 1997 manifesto) and then promptly Paddy Ashdown was outed as a philanderer and in the ensuing political fall-out Labour's promise was dropped.
The Tories were, likewise, set up by Blair to share the blame for the Iraq fiasco. Nice fireside talk for IDS who bought totally into the consensus government thing on the same heap of misinformation that was fed to the press. The infamous '45 minutes' memo.
And then the Tories and Liberals repeat the mistake by being invited to number 10 and Gordon Brown getting consensus on the bank bail-outs only to emerge, declare himself sole saviour of UK PLC and trash the banks reputations to boot in an attempt cover up his own inadequacies.
A government of National Unity with a Labour PM as head would be political suicide for the Tories and Liberals. They'll just be used as cover if any decision goes wrong ie it wasnae just me. They Liberals and Tories would have done the same thing (like the bank bail-outs) and will be utterly excluded from any successes that might eventuate.
Gordon Brown is pure Machiavelli. He's not concerned with anything except power for its own sake.
He just hasn't got a clue about how to use it safely. Actually, he just doesn't have a clue beyond power for its own sake.
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I've been saying this for months (and I even wrote to Gordon and Allistar outlining it), why don't the government just pay off everyone's mortgage! This would make the banks happy, stop repossessions and put a fair bit of money back in peoples pockets that they could then spend in the high street, thereby avioding the recession. Yes I know it's marxist utopia but this would work. Who's going to complain abut not having a mortgage? Why bailout the banks, we should be bailing out the people at the sharp end - the workers.
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Totally agree with tax advisor @ 64!
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All those people who are commenting that New Labour would attack the tories for proposing tax cuts forget one thing:
Labour know where they can cut taxes because they were the ones who raised them!
In this position cutting taxes is win-win for Labour, if it works they get re-elected and spend an extra 5 years at the trough and if it doesn't work they have made life very difficult for the next government.
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In what way does government policy and the general situation relate to what you think and feel?
S'cuse me? Government policy has caused what is shaping up to be the mother of all recessions. People will lose their jobs, be repossesses, lose their homes, their assets, their self-respect, possibly their families and for many they will become so depressed they will kill themselves. And it was entirely preventable if this government hadn't encouraged a decade of mock prosperity on a decade of borrowed money.
If the policy is sound and helping people, how does filling yourself with rage help things?
Manifestly this governments policies have not been sound and have not been helping people. Which is why we find ourselves in such an appalling financial position. The rage would be directed at this glib government and their reality-blind apologists who spit in our faces and tell us that it's raining.
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#113 john_constable
I think the reason a lot of people would rather emigrate than try to make England a better place is that we feel worse off and undervalued. Our jobs are not safe, and our houses/mortgages are not safe either. Same goes for our savings and pensions.
Every government who's been in power since I started voting over 30 years ago has always increased taxes. Granted, we've had rebates, but these have always been eaten up by increases in other areas. Governments don't want us asking questions or having an opinion, they just want our money and will promise us the earth, which of course, never materialises. I would demonstrate if I thought it would actually do any good but unless something adversely affects our politicians and their lives, they're just not interested, and legal demonstrating simply isn't enough to get anything done in this country any more.
My spouse watched in amazement a few months back, as someone in the job centre demanded money to buy a mattress and was given it. The exchange of words almost escalated to violence, but in the end, the lady at the Job Centre gave in and money was handed over. Is this what we have to resort to to get ourselves heard? No thanks - I'd rather emigrate.
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As a letter in yesterday's telegraph asked:
Do you expect someone who crashed his car to be able to repair it?
Every time the Tories propose something they are knocked by Labour and the Treasury as economically incompetent then the idea is snatched by Labour.
If Mr Brown had any conscience he would go on TV, apologize to the Nation then resign to take up crofting (or deep sea fishing).
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#112. rockyhippo wrote:
I want to see a "National Government" that includes all parties not as you put it 'a government of national unity'.
Or perhaps you have no faith in any of the elected parties in the parliament? If so please will you let us know how you will select anyone to manage our country - or are you applying for the job?
I don't think you yet appreciate just how bad things are, and will get. We need Brown, Cameron, Clegg and everyone who has to welfare of the Nation at heart (does that exclude you?)
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"Stimulating the Economy"? I would describe it differently.
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#121. U9461192 wrote:
"You talk of a Government of Nation unity" let me assume you mean a National Government.
You ask "What do the other have to gain?" - the welfare of the Nation! Or perhaps you put party gain about the Country?
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118:
'If the policy is sound and helping people, how does filling yourself with rage help things?'
I think people are angry that proper action wasn't taken long ago while at the same time yours truly appears to be soaking up praise for closing the stable door (fairly expertly it has to be said although the proof of the pudding will come later) far too late.
'As for the Tories, I can't possibly support a party that can't come up with a better alternative or that just stokes up hate. It's no solution to anything and, I suspect, why the media has turned off them.'
The Conservative Party doesn't need to stir up hate. Many people actively disliked Gordon Brown well before he became P.M.
I wasn't aware that the media aside from a slightly partisan BBC had turned off The Conservatives. Where is your evidence?
'Life is easy. People just make it hard.'
Try telling that to the hundreds of thousands who are and will suffer as a result of this Recession.
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Brown cutting taxes sounds like a timely bribe for re-election.
Once taxes are cut, expect a general election shortly thereafter... then spend the next five years having taxes raised again to yet higher levels.
... oh, our wonderful government!!!
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A view of the 1929 Depression :
Roosevelt fundamentally thought that the focusing on foreign causes for the Depression was a scam and an evasion... He believed that efforts to lay great stress on the potential of international conferences to achieve much that would be useful were just attempts to shirk responsibility for the monstrous failure for which Hoover as President, and for eight years before that as Secretary of Commerce, was more personally responsible than anyone else.”
Fast forward to 2008 - anyone like to substitute Gordon Brown / Prime Minister / Chancellor of the Exchequer ?
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Brown and Darling have completely lost the place. I suspect that Brown's " Tax cuts to help the lower paid through these difficult times " is a cycical attempt to cut the gap between him and the Tories in the opinion polls so he can call a snap election in May 2009 just after the tax reduction cuts in and before the recession reaches a nadir.
" Help " from Brown is a contradiction in terms; this from the man who has singlehandedly destroyed the economy and saw the banking crisis not as a disaster but as his saviour. If the crisis had not blown up , the economy would have collapsed anyway , he would have been replaced by his own sychophants and we would have had a general election by now. Now we have Mandy and Campbell pulling his strings and no level of deception is too low for these two. The idea of borrowing more money to fund tax cuts is madness. Why not reduce the size of government by about 20%, get rid of all the quangoes and non jobs in local government, this would just about wipe out the country's debt at a stroke.
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People feel put-down and out of the loop, so feeling angry and upset is fair enough. But, you have to take a step back to see why that is and not get caught up in things.
The British don't do leadership and society very well. That creates class and wealth distribution issues. This isn't circumstance but structural, and doing something about it isn't going to please everyone.
By swapping out arrogance for confidence, and 'me, me, me' for service, and taking a slightly longer view, the naughty child of the British economy and society can be turned around. But, you need to want it.
This is not a resource or finance problem. This is a mind problem and, as Zen teaches, it begins with the self. It's from the mind that all action flows so it seems useful to attend to this.
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89. megapoliticajunkie
Ref Where did 71 go?
You made the mistake of criticising he who must not be named
If he doesnt like what you write he reports you to the mods.
His arrogance and hypocrisy knows no bounds Im afraid.
Best not to read his comments or comment on them.
98 Pot Kettle
opps there goes another, shot down with peace and love from the zen cannon.
Vengeance is a dark light that blinds all who seek it
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You ask "What do the other have to gain?" - the welfare of the Nation!
The track record of this government demonstrates that the last thing on Gordon Browns mind will be the welfare of the nation. Hence the baloney about 'tough choices'. What's tough about printing money and cutting taxes. That's easy.
Sure, in the medium and long term you trash the economy but it's the easy way out.
The 'tough' choice would be getting on TV and telling the truth. 'My fellow citizens, we have borrowed long and hard this past decade and now it is time for us all to pay back. It will be difficult and there will be pain but we will emerge stronger etc etc....'
What's tough about printing money and cutting taxes. That's easy. That's just an alcoholic deciding to uncork another bottle.
Sure, in the medium and long term you trash the economy but it's the easy way out.
The Tories and Liberals will only be brought in as fall guys to blame for the failures of any policies (Iraq), their ideas will be conveniently ignored when it suits (PR) and any good ideas they come up with will be stolen and claimed by the little emporer.
It would be a Government of National Unity in name only. I don't doubt that the Tories and Liberals will participate in good faith if asked but I likewise can guarantee you that there will be no good faith in any Labour initiative to invite them.
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#135 CEH
I may be mistaken, but you seem to be over employing the copy and paste functions when writing your blogs. No doubt you have a long repertoire of text to choose from. Other bloggers do tend to write original comments.
It would be more courteous and respectful to your fellow bloggers if an attempt was made to write original comments or rebuttals. Otherwise comment only when you have something to add to the debate.
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This is not a resource or finance problem. This is a mind problem and, as Zen teaches, it begins with the self. It's from the mind that all action flows so it seems useful to attend to this.
To achieve auspicious feng shui always point your desk towards the moon and never let your toad block the doorway. Grasshopper.
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Forget a tax cut that helps from April 2009 business needs help RIGHT NOW!
How's about issuing a directive to HM Revenue and Customs to work with and understand that self employed and small companies are struggling at the moment and may fall behind with tax, not because they do not want to pay, but simply because their cash flow is struggling.
From what I am seeing as an accountant acting for over 300 firms at the moment the main reason that firms will be going out of business will be because they are closed down by HMRC.
I am at a loss as to why the media are not focusing on this and welcome the chance to tell the following story which sums up the official attitude at present:
A client of ours has over 100 employees. They have fallen 3 months behind with their PAYE and have been threatened with a CCJ by the Revenue. This would put them out of business as suppliers would instantly put them on stop and no cashflow and no supplies = no work = no more business
Instead of receiving £1.5 million a year the Exchequer will pay out over £1 million in jobseeker's allowance and tax credits - a net loss to the Exchequer of £2.5 million.
Where is the sense in this attitude?
The HMRC view was for them to approach the bank..... and the bank said, well what do you think?!?
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shellingout @ 126
You do not have to emigrate to obtain a better quality of life.
It is totally within the remit of us English to transform our situation completely, even within the current system.
We simply need to shake ourselves out of our appalling political apathy and use our vote intelligently at the next General Election.
That means giving somebody else a chance, possibly a local 'worthy' standing as an independent, which is always my personal preference.
Alternatively, there are various political parties who deserve some representation, e.g. the English Democrats, Greens, etc - they might be worth considering.
The situation is not hopeless, far from it.
We English need to ensure by intelligent voting that no seat is a safe seat, despite mainstream party attempts to ensure this.
The existing system gives us the power to completely transform the existing political landscape, if we English so desire.
We are very lucky in that respect, the vast majority of countries in the world are more-or-less dictatorships of some description.
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Rabbits and headlights come to mind. Drop interest rates, drop taxes, and hope for the best. He can't make people spend. Too many innocent people are frightened of loosing their homes, jobs, pensions and savings. Keep talking Mr Brown, it gets more scary the more you say.
Cutting interest rates and taxes will take time to impact. Confidence is collapsing. Yes, we will have a nasty recession thanks to your mismanagement of the economy over the past 11 years. With luck, it won't turn into a slump
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I tend to think the focus on policy and consensus is beginning to get some traction, and this pretty much causes the lurid claims and narrow DNA of self-selecting groups to fade.
My general view is all main parties have their issues, and the winners will be the ones who more closely mine the seam of reality. At the moment, I tend to think that party is Labour.
Some people have commented on the need for more focus on industry and putting more money in the hands of the poor. Labour is more ahead of that curve. "Invest in loss" is exactly what's needed.
"Crouching balance sheet, hidden asset." LOL.
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Isn't Brown the chap who in his first budget gave pensioners 75p extra, help the poor my arse. he is only trying to save his own neck.
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#135 CEH
I'm sorry Charles but I have to disagree with you on your post 135.
Feeling put down and out of the loop is a fact of life in the UK these days. I don't feel angry, upset or caught up in things, just the contrary in fact. I've been very pro-active and spent the last 3/4 years trying to put together a plan for myself and my spouse to have a better life elsewhere. This is the action flowing from the mind as in your last paragraph.
What happened in the Job Centre I feel is endemic around the country. I find that most people from the UK are very tolerant, but there came a point at which my spouse and I both agreed that neither of us really wanted to stay in Britain, or had a future here - and we have ties in the UK; two sons, a grandson and both our mothers are alive also.
I can't see that this government has actually done anything to placate the millions of taxpayers that have kept this country going for the last umpteen years.
See if Zen has a saying for this.
You can only kick a dog so many times before it bites you back.
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Massive interest rate cuts, huge tax cuts, I'm calling a May 7th General Election on the back of a minor xmas / spring uptick on the back of all that monetary and fiscal loosening as being the Labour stratgists least bad option before the second round effects of recession, unemployment and possibly even IMF bailout that are likely to follow.
While I'm doing predictions how about the UK being forced in to an emergency adoption of the Euro before the end of next year at less than favourable terms?
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I tend to think a bit more of an open mind and good attitude can help. This is one of those not-so-smart decisions that causes bigger problems because the players lack perspective, flexibility, and a little patience.
Someone commented, earlier, that Ratner's took a lifetime to build up and a moment to destroy. My theory is success is additive but mistakes multiply. People may find some value in reflecting on that.
I hope this is resolved to everyone's satisfaction.
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socialism: the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism
it was labour's plan, apart from the going to communism bit! have a huge percentage of the population working for the government and convincing them they are making their own choices. they HAVE TO VOTE FOR THE GOVERNMENT or they'll lose their jobs.
the country is no longer in a position to have a government that forces the way people act, we need one that lets people innovate otherwise we'll have nothing but huge inward facing public projects and the country will forever be in debt.
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Great to see that the Committee for standards in public life have discovered that after fifteen months of Gordon Brown now only 22% of the population believe politicians tell the truth vs a record 27% low when Blair left office.
Maybe Hazel Blears can learn a thing or two from this as can Alistair Campbell and Peter Mandelson.
It works for a while to massage the news but keep doing it when the statistics are telling a different story and you get mass disaffection.
So after the Brown mini bounce back to a breath taking 30% support in the popinion polls it's interesting to see that must mean a quarter of his own supporter don't even think he tells the truth.
Bad for politics. Bad for the country. Eleven years of non stop spinning have taken their toll.
Call an election.
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#147 Thank you for replying CEH
This is yet another example of a Brown initiative breaking down at the first hurdle
The company in question works in Civil Engineering but is a 2nd tier contractor.
The main client is a local council and Mr Brown instructed that local council's must pay small businesses within 20 days.
That is great for the 1st tier contractor but no one has told them to pay their suppliers (including my client with 100 employees) on the same terms..... so ultimately they are protecting their cash flow and finding any reason to delay payments out.
There are too many perfectly good businesses who are on the verge of collapse, not because of debt or bad management but because of worsening cash flow coupled with banks calling in overdraft facilities and loans (and not re-lending) and the Revenue turning the screw to get some money in (because they gave it all to the banks).
Oh and another gripe I have is regarding VAT. Any businesses paying their VAT late can get hit with (up to) a 15% late payment surcharge - even if only paid a few days late. A great initiative to make the struggling business give up the ghost that little bit quicker.
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Labour's plan to cut taxes through borrowing money make as much sense as taking out a loan you can't afford to pay back to get something you want. Rather than say, sell unwanted items - which is essentially what the Tories are planning to do - Labour want to increase the national debt for which future taxpayers will pay.
It's a tax con - and Brown has a history of them. Don't be taken in this time.
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I read all the blogs and I don't normally add my twopenny worth as everyone here says it better than i could - but I could not resist passing on this titbit - I know someone who works in the benefit office in Lincoln, in housing. She said that a guy who had got a council house went to them saying that he needed a car to get to work - and he was given a cheque for 9,000 pounds .... I expressed my disbelief and outrage and she said "I am sorry but it is true".
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146 michaels
"how about the UK being forced in to an emergency adoption of the Euro before the end of next year at less than favourable terms?"
Do you still think that the Euro will exist? My bet is that the Germans will have their DM back. Just a tip: check the country of origin for large Euro notes. A lot of Germans won't accept Med Euros.
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I hear what you're saying. I have plans to move elsewhere and there's some junk getting in the way. So, our situations aren't too different.
Big business has become arrogant, society and the media have become greedy, and so on, and so forth. But, this isn't just a matter of policy and other people. This is a matter of collective and individual responsibility.
Britain was in a mess and on a curve towards a crash for a long time. The smart money was already moving out a few years ago. We don't make anything, people have got nastier, and foreign investors picked up on those indicators.
Some rats have already left. Others saw no other choice. The rest have a mess to clear up. Now, arguments and recriminations, slashing costs and throwing people to the wolves is just going to contract capital even further. This is why I tend to advocate a more positive, consensual, and patient approach.
Britain is anything but positive, consensual, and patient. Individuals may be but the collective approach is in a sink. One merely needs to look around this blog for a living example of the macro-economic issues.
I figure, if people can aise the bar of their own output, bite it when someone upsets them, and turn the volume down and see posting as a marathon not a sprint, the wisdom of better ways will become self-evident.
Zen is about life and death, being aware, and making choices. As JC comments, we have those choices but often don't realise this. But, by discovering this we can help unlock more of our own potential and all the benefits that flow from that.
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Maybe this is why Brown has forgotten that he promised no return to Boom and Bust
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My theory is success is additive but mistakes multiply. People may find some value in reflecting on that.
You're on a roll. Firstly you correctly identify that Gordon Brown has no clue about prioritisation and now you've put your finger on his contribution to the UK's economic collapse.
It's like an accident investigation course I was on many moons ago. The general premise is that there is a pyramid of outcomes. So (say), for every 1000 'unsafe acts' that occurs - eg handling a knife without a safety glove then you'll have one accident - a cut (say). Then further up the pyramid, for every thousand accidents you'll have one fatality.
The way to prevent the fatality is to reduce the number of unsafe acts. Ie have people wear gloves.
So it is with this government. For every (say) ten unsafe Act they pass there will be one with serious consequences. For every ten serious consequences there will be an economic catastrophe. The way to eliminate economic catastrophe was not to be carrying out so many unsafe Acts (of Parliament).
Unlike this lot who have industrialised Parliament to the point where it generates thousands of pages of legislation a year.
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138
Re 135
And I would add to this a plea to attribute citations. Following and contributing to exchanges can be difficult where this courtesy is overlooked.
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152 Quincecott
That is just the tip of the iceberg.
Speaking from experience (people that I have met) the benefits culture has become a "lifestyle choice".
Benefit money is being diverted to pay for foreign holidays and to avoid work and all manner of other things.
I wouldn't even mind if the amount the government spent on benefit payments stayed the same, so long as it was given to people who genuinely need support from society.
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I just read the figures on the perceived honesty of various professions over on Guido's web-page. It certainly drives home the importance of having the BBC report the nationalisation of the banks as a failure of Thatcherism rather than a failure of the current government, its financial policy, its fiscal policy and its regulatory policy.
22% of folk believe what TV journalists tell them but only 4% believe what tabloid journalists tell them. So, if you're going to be rigging the presentation of the news, make sure it's the TV news.
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#152 quincecott
I read all the blogs and I don't normally add my twopenny worth as everyone here says it better than i could - but I could not resist passing on this titbit - I know someone who works in the benefit office in Lincoln, in housing. She said that a guy who had got a council house went to them saying that he needed a car to get to work - and he was given a cheque for 9,000 pounds .... I expressed my disbelief and outrage and she said "I am sorry but it is true".
I can quite believe this. We know someone who works at a benefit office and she has confirmed that we pay for furniture, TV's, phone bills, electric, gas, driving licences and lessons for people coming in who have no qualifications, and we do this until they have managed to get money coming in and can save. I can't actually write on this blog what I'm thinking because this post will definitely get binned by the moderators!
As Charles says - Relax, Be Happy......Grrrrr!!
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Who is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Could you imagine sulking bully boy Brown allowing Blair to make such announcements. I don't think so!!
Just as long as people remember that the prat who landed us in the mess and seems determined to dig deeper every day is that man Brown!!
Go now for goodness sake, take your lame dog government with you and set your people free.
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#150 youngloch
The normal credit terms where a supplier expects to be paid by the purchaser is 30 days; but this is a convention dating back (not sure when) and was adopted pretty much universally. Exceptions occurred for example in international trade in early 20th century when it could take a ship 6 weeks to travel from Australia to the UK, so you could have 45 or 60 days.
In the modern age 30 days is the norm, but with the advent of large supermarket chains and other purchasers with big buying power there has been flagrant abuse of the system. I seem to remember 20 or 30 years ago some large purchaser bragging about this at some conference and the quote ended up in the news.
Now unfortunately it is widespread. The present policy is inconsistent in that on the one hand it is directly addressing the issue with local councils, yet on the other it gives big business inumerable concessions. Try placing a court order against a FTSE100 company - if they just laugh at you, then you are doing well as it means they at least read it.
When it comes to enacting business policy it is unfortunately a lot of talk for small to medium sized and visible action for large sized business. Hazel Blears made a striking comment today in the article about politicians populaity, saying that more MPs needed to come from a varied background such as unions, nurses, business people etc rather than promoted from the ranks of political researchers. From some of the decision making it shows, painfully so.
Sorry this is background and does not really help. But good luck anyway.
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Where are the usual Government supporters today?
Hope they not in Jonestown or should I say Brownstown drinking his special cool aid.
Bounce huh?
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Hazel Blears made a striking comment today in the article about politicians populaity, saying that more MPs needed to come from a varied background such as unions, nurses, business people etc rather than promoted from the ranks of political researchers. From some of the decision making it shows, painfully so.
I wonder if she'll do the decent thing and resign to make way for someone more fitting?
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159 U9461192
You can bet your life that the "22% of people trusting TV news" is an average, and that more than 22% trust BBC TV news compared to the other TV channels.
So, I suspect, if you're going to be rigging the presentation of the news, make sure it's the BBC TV news.
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Anyway, what's all this about a stimulation package amounting to 1% of GDP. We've been running a stimulation package of 3% of GDP for the last six or eight years and look at all the good that did. I can't see an extra 1% making any difference.
Indeed with the budget deficit likely to be around 6 or 7% of GDP for 2008/2009 and closer to 10% for 2009/2010 that extra 1% of fiscal stimulation will be just a rounding error.
This is a dead economy. It has been nailed to its perch by Gordon Brown.
He hasn't a clue.
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Written like the good New Labour man you are.
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You can bet your life that the "22% of people trusting TV news" is an average, and that more than 22% trust BBC TV news compared to the other TV channels.
My mistake. It was 23% who 'trust a lot' plus 45% who 'trust a fair amount'.
So 68% of people will believe what they're told on TV. Failure of Thatcherism it is then. No wonder the Thief-in-Chief had a spring in his step when they broadcast his version of events in full eh?
Mandelson and Campbell up to their old tricks again. Rewriting history in real-time.
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We have all heard of Lawrence of Arabia, but a new star burns in the skies, Gordon of Arabia. He must have something cooked up, after his visit to Saudi. Has he planned to pawn the crown jewels or what? No wonder he is telling us to spend, spend, spend.....
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"Gordon Brown's individual personality type and Britain's collective personality type have certain qualities. If you examined them you'd understand them and the differences, and have a better grasp of policies and outcomes, and the process of change."
Having started off in natural sciences, many years ago I was fascinated by the impact of the brain, the mind and subsequently "personality" on the performance humans who are essentially the same chemical and physical structures.
So got into a lot of that personality stuff many, many years ago. Topped up, for my enjoyment and interest, as people came up with different personality notions.
I'm a bit bi-polar. Mostly enjoyed the manic bit (during the creative times), but rather depressive when it just happens.
Someone said (can't be identified, as the mods would be invoked) I was a bit like he was (and by extension Gordon Brown). May be true. But in that case, GB's hitting his manic zone because of the depression he has caused for many people. It doesn't and never has worked like that for me. My manic stuff kicks off because of internal factors. Not being relieved that some other poor b****er can take the blame.
Have had a lot of exposure to all that "personality recognition" stuff in the work environment. Most of it pretty crap, but good for half a day's worth of being paid not to do what you would really prefer to be doing...
Driven by "wonderfully balanced" HR people, most of the time. The sort of folk you would really like to expose to the real world of business, but then wake up in a cold sweat when you think what they could spout when dealing with a customer or supplier...
"Britain's collective personality type" is something I've never come across before.
I could understand a country having a "collective personality type" if their citizens came from the same ethnic, cultural, religious and genetic-pool backgroung. How on earth could you take a massive cross-section of the UK populace and determine a recognisable "personality type"?
We are a mongrel (i.e. multi-background) nation. All the better for it. Would you prefer a dog with a mixed background, or one that meets the Cruft's standards, which have changed real breeds into genetic abhorrations. (Churchill talked about a British Bulldog. Would any bulldog now be even fit enough to wander into a bull ring?)
How long does that take to change? Going from a position of global expansionism to reticence is absolutely nothing to do with personality. Just realism.
Politics has little to do with "collective personality". It has to do with protection and money. And some aspects of fairness and self-help.
I'd have thought that recent events prove there is no such thing as a "collective personality" in this country. Or the USA, or anywhere, really...
"If someone is going to libel me or be rude, patronising, or incite more flamebait the post gets referred every time, and 90% of those referrals are upheld by moderation. Stick to writing good content and playing nice, and there isn't a problem."
Patronising?
Said by whom?
Patroniser in chief?
If you mean that people should just accept what you say, as it MUST be right, because you said it, just as Blair and Brown did, you assume that a New Labour agenda is truth, carved in stone.
Just get back to the extraordinary changes to the management of the NHS. Circular is hardly the case.
I guess that someone out there will believe that there has been an attack on his personal position.
Just hope that the mods have a more civilised approach. If you attack truly held positions, it could be badly interpreted as a personal matter.
If someone purports to hold the truth and can refer refuting or antithepetical postings to the mods and make them inaccesible, maybe the mods should consider the "virtue" of the guys doing the referring...
This posting has been copied and could be sent to an MP...
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funny how there was no more money for various pay rises and investments, then by the magic of gordon brown, a huge amount of borrowing under the headline "needed to support the banks" and hey presto!
the police can now be paid their full pay rise, civil service strikes vanish faster than brown can drop his smug grin halfway through announcing bad news, services see increases in funding, and now tax cuts!
brown himself questions shortfalls in other parties requests to pay for X and Y.
yet he can fritter away £2.7 billion on a one-off correction of his own long term tax policy, everyone will see the latest gimmick for what it is... predictable and ill thought out.
- give with one hand and take with the other
- increased funding, whilst racking up big increases in borrowing, which will bring higher taxation in the future
its all headline news catching, but where is the overall direction?
exactly how are we to get through a recession that gordon brown has denied would happen for years?
after creating the highest levels of personal taxation in history, brown is now proposing tax cuts... why didnt he listen to others more knowledgable than himself, and not raise them this high in the first place?
i have absolutely no faith in gordon brown and labour's policies whatsoever.
as others have already posted superbly - if you do away with id cards, cut beaurocracy, etc, the money will be there for cutting taxes, so why do we need to borrow more?
or is brown using the money he borrowed under the disguise of "helping the banking system get moving again?"
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170
I support you. But maybe I'm doing you no favours. I will be referred and moderated for this, and you too will disappear into the void. John Milton or Dante could have created wonderful verse concerning our nemesis!
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81
juliap1950 wrote:"How about the government re-introducing MIRAS on all new house purchases"
This sounds attractive but I wonder if it is really a solution. People will remind me I am no economist, but having the government pay people to afford their homes is different from having the government enable people to afford their homes. Small business could put up quite a good case for that money as could the public spending/project needs that GB is borrowing in order to maintain. Indeed MIRAS would be no 'tax cut' that the govt. could defend politically: the well-off benefit disproportionately. Mind you, with the greatest respect to the poster, expect the Tories to advocate this; while out of kilter with Dave's latest pronouncements on tax (but that's his problem), it is up their street.
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I want to congratulate you for just giving a good lesson to Gordon Brown, he is a joke, completely joke.. just by reading first paragraph i see Brown must be fired..
who can fire Brown?
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# 162
Thanks for the comment and you are completely right.
I am at a loss as to why Mr Brown made a big point of local authorities making payment sooner though knowing full well that further on down the chain it makes not the slightest of differences.
He keeps saying he is helping small businesses and families but when pressed he can only ever say "well we have already refunded £120 to every taxpayer".
Yes that's the £120 you previously took away but more to the point £120 is not going to pay the mortgage if Mum and Dad lose their jobs or pay the winter electricity and gas bills in March or buy this weeks shopping.
The main concern has to be to protect the businesses who pay the wages to the families in the first place and this current HMRC approach of cracking the whip is ridiculous and counterproductive. The Exchequer has nothing to lose and everything to gain by helping businesses cash flow in their payment of taxes over the next year or so - not a blanket policy as Cameron suggested but on a case by case basis. Help those struggling but by all means ensure that everyone else pays on time. Just set up a system that makes it clear to business that they understand and are working with us not against us.
I have to wonder whether they ended up giving the banks too much money? Time will tell whether they are a good investment but considering that Mr Brown's last big tip was to sell gold in 1997 I somewhat doubt it....
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a friend has snatched a government yellow paper with the secret plans of the government on it and its amazing, should i tell??
um would i get in trouble for telling ??
would people believe it ??
well here are a few gems
gordon will offer mandelson the leadership after the next election reguardless of the result.
darling will ensure the country is broke before 2010 so we have no option but to become european and use the euro.
gordon will change parties and join the snp.
to boost popularity they will systematicly reduce taxation giving every one the promiss of more money but in reality far less money in your pocket from stealth taxes.
save money on required items for the country as an example issue the army with slingshots and sell off all rifles, tanks and transports can only be used on a monday the rest of the week to save fuel they remain idle.
the navy will resort to sailing ships and the modern ships sold for scrap.
any one on benefits will have to undergo weekly checks and assesment.
the police are to be armed and ordered to shoot asbo breakers on sight.
any persons coming to live in this country will require either three refferances and or a good bribe to the government.
these revelations may seem odd and insain but then again we did elect a neu labour government and with so many crazy ideas who can say what we will get next.
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rrwholloway @12 wrote:
"So we need ?15bn in savings?
Easy, scrap the ID cards scheme and the NHS computer database.
NHS database saving: ?12bn
ID cards scheme saving: ?5.3bn
That's ?17.3bn saved for tax cuts.
Can I have a job at the Treasury now?"
No!
Your admirable demonstration of intelligence and commons sense - including the ability to formulate simple, productive and effective plans that would be both popular and make substantial savings to public funds - has proven that you are totally unsuitable for the role of a British civil servant.
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U @ 50 etc
Okay, I think I'm convinced. It is a failure of the Thatcherite gung ho free market but it also reflects quite badly on U know who.
So, I don't know what to do now. I cannot vote for the Tories because I'm a left wing extremist and I disagree with just about every one of their policies. Plus, I hate them.
But voting Labour puts him back in and then what?
Don't talk about LibDem or any of that nonsense because I live in a straightforward Labour v Tory marginal.
I never vote for fringe parties like the Communists or the League against Morris Dancing because that's a wasted vote. And I always have to use my vote because people fought and died to give it to me. Abstaining or spoiling the ballot is disrespectful of their sacrifice. Can't do that.
See the problem? U going to help me out or just leave me like this?
Oh and just to mention, this is something I have to get sorted because, as an accredited Clear Thinking Progressive, I have an agreement with the Authorities that my vote counts ten.
Advice please - either from U or somebody else.
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#147 Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
"I tend to think a bit more of an open mind and good attitude can help. This is one of those not-so-smart decisions that causes bigger problems because the players lack perspective, flexibility, and a little patience.
Someone commented, earlier, that Ratner's took a lifetime to build up and a moment to destroy. My theory is success is additive but mistakes multiply. People may find some value in reflecting on that.
I hope this is resolved to everyone's satisfaction."
This from someone who keeps saying he wants to get out as soon as he can...
Not an exactly ringing endorsement for the influence of the Great Leader. Or maybe there are deeper reasonings. But we poor blogger-trash wouldn't be able to appreciate such deep thinking.
Success is addictive. Well, yes. Great insight. But success requires some degree of support to get from an initial level to the next. That should ideally come from a positive private initiative. (That's the way it has been for centuries.) Sometimes companies just don't recognise the benefits they own. Brown would find it hard to realise a positive technological option, unless it allowed greater Governmental control over the citizens.
Funny thing is that, while I don't recognise a "national personality", that C_E_H referred to, the revolutionary French (who got here a while after he Brits) only "allow" governments to rule them. When they get p***ed off, they go and dump stuff outside parliament, burn buildings, or shut ports.
(Maybe not so much anti-Brit as anti-their-own governments. Sad thing is that we don't adopt the same attitude. That may be a pyschological trait, but just seemed like a really good point of view. Maybe we just accept too much crap without reacting in a visceral manner. Had that been the case, I doubt that more than 10 percent of EU legislation would have been accepted. But all that stuff just gets nodded through. By people we chose to elect. Who probably couldn't explain it, if challanged. Just go, ask your MP which bits of EU legislation they actually considered before they agreed that it should, inevitably, be another UK law.)
Don't see too much government support for real technological benefits, rather than the crass support for wind farms. (OK. I don't like them. Think they are a blight on the countryside and only operate at really inefficient levels. Which is why I hate to see so much emphasis on hugely subsidised enterprises that only deliver benefit as the winds dictate. The tides are pretty constant. Where, exactly, has this government invested big money into tidal and wave based technonolgy?)
Some folk talk about the contribution of the Danish wind-farms. Without referring to the fact that most power is exported, as it doesn't correspond with local demands.
So, we have a bunch of windmills. Don Quixote, where are you?
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163#
Harry.
You may struggle with th concept.
Where are all the "government supporters"
On a weekday afternoon.
Could they be at work??
Not everyone blogs all day but a lot and I mean a lot of the Tories on here like yourself, do.
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If Gordon Brown is so keen on global solutions to the current crisis, isn't it time to outsource the government? It is difficult to believe that anyone else could do a worse job, and it would save much more than an ill-fated round of unaffordable tax cuts.
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it's a funny old world .... Brown pumps billions into the banks and says it's an investment and we will get out money back - so we will if the banks are profitable and viable but he also wants the banks to keep lending at loevels he says were excessive and foolish and he wants them to cut their lending rates - can't achieve both surely?
and Brown says we have individually borrowed too much - lived beyond our means yet his solution is for the Goverment to borrow even more and live beyond our means - why is a wrong righted simply because we do it collectively?
and now he wants to increase the spending power of the individual, encouranging us to spend more of our own money ... but isn't that Conservative Policy except that the Tories would also encourage us to save and invest rather than fritter way ......
It's weird, who knows what New Labour stand for from one minute to the next ....
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#179 fairlyopenminded
Funny thing is that, while I don't recognise a "national personality", that C_E_H referred to, the revolutionary French (who got here a while after he Brits) only "allow" governments to rule them. When they get p***ed off, they go and dump stuff outside parliament, burn buildings, or shut ports.
If we did that, we'd probably get arrested under the Terrorism Act!
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Talk about a failure of the Thatcherite (or any other) free market system is to miss the point - every system will fail unless it is constantly managed in our interests.
Arguably even when it is managed, in our view, successfully someone else probably suffers in the thirld world perhaps, or a subsequent generation (Global warming etc) which is why when times are going as well as they have been society gets a bit introspective and moral and we try to aleiviate the damage we are doing to others, but on out terms and in a way that does not impact too much on our own "success".
The reality is that we will always have to deal with "free market capitalism", state socialism and (most dangerous of all) socialist state sovereign wealth funds acting in the "free" capitalist markets. Beibg judgemental about which type of system is best is irrelevant - we have to fight to survive and to fight to prosper and like it or not many of the maligned banker "fat cats" have the skills we need to do so - rather that we paid their bonuses because they benefit the UK economy than some foreign operation does for benefiting theirs at our expense.
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178.
sagamix, vote for what you want to happen. That's the deal. Better or worse, that's the deal. No-one's expecting you to get it right except yourself. You're expecting them to.... Or dont bother.
So, now
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"1. At 11:09am on 10 Nov 2008, mr moe wrote:
Gordon Brown is a joke"
Brother spare me a dime... why it it BBC posting boards stuffed full of these 'jokers' and their little Gorden Clown pen names demanding resignation. Is there some DM, Tory spam bot in operation somewhere.
It is all fruitless, unless something spectacular happens (and don't you think the collapse of capitalism was spectacular enough). Labour are going to rule for a full term and GB is probably going to be their Leader.
Grow up and lump it. You will get your vote when the time comes. You are like children.
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Evening Tory Boys.
Come to terms with Glenrothes yet and what it means?
Do you think its possible that this blog is perhaps not the reflection of public opinion that you hope it to be?
Still, a long way to go yet before Brown is in a winning position for the next GE.
This is how it could go.
Pre Budget Statement; Nov 08
A few Tax measures to continue the Brown recovery plan including the re-introduction of the 10p tax band, funded by a 50p tax on bonus payments paid to £60k / year earners.
Postponeing the intro of increased VED and a £100 winter fuel one off payment.
Largely welcomed but opposed by the Tories
Feb 09
Announcement of Troop withdrawals from Iraq.
Figures for retail spend in December up on previous year.
March 09
Interest Rares cut by .5% in line with continueing drop in inflation rate
Budget 09.
Borrowing confirmed as 45% of GDP still lower than all G7 bar Canada.
Tax Free thresholds increased above inflation to continue Fiscal stimulus.
April 09
Northern Rock confirm 75% of debt to Government repaid. House prices see no drop in value and increase in transactions for first time in 18 months.
May 09
FTSE tops 5000. Commentators say a steady increase in confidence has returned to the market. Bank shares biggest gainers in last 6 months.
Summer recess confirms second quarter of 2009 neutral growth and final troops return from Iraq.
For the first time revelations are made from a former Bullingdon Boy who due to falling on hard times sells story to a popular Tabloid claiming that the "boys" didn't just like a drink but also other "recreational substances" . Cameron and Osbourne both state they "are entitled to a private past" and have no comment to make on the story.
September, Brown asks the Queen to disolve parliament and an election is called for 15 October 09.
Old Eaton's Almanac!!
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Why not more effort to get the housing market moving again? I do not believe the wider economy will get going till this happens.
I'm talking not so much house prices but more getting buying and selling going again. HIPS are a joke, universally derided. Some of us, if we look at the things at all (unlikely) look for a low score in hopes the house in question has not been "modernised".
Just think of the unproductive, frustrating time spent by people who need to move jobs and the effect that has on the country of these people being immobilised. Ridiculous.
Obviously there will be some tiresome legal baloney to be overcome (Charges in respect of Maintenance of Church Porches and the like) but what must come first is as clear as day. I am not aware that anybody is ever forced to make an offer for a house but, once they do, as elsewhere, it should be legally binding. If surveys and searches are wanted then they should be satisfactorily completed before an offer is made, just as with an auction.
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If Gordon really thinks tax cuts are a good for the economy, could he please explain why taxes have risen so much under his stewardship?
Has he finally seen the error of his ways?
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The Tories are calling for tax cuts!
Whatever next?
The Pope declaring catholicism is the one true religion?
Bill
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All that Brown is doing is making sure that he has control of the agenda. He lost political control of the country last year when George Osbourne talked about IHT. Ever since then Brown has been trying to act responsibly by taking time to consider ideas when they have come up and he has been accused of dithering.
Now he is taking control of the agenda and making it appear that the Tories are plaaying catch up. His timing has been perfect as the Tories have indicated that tax cuts are the way forward, but have not made a definative statement. Indicating that something will be said in the autumn statement gives him a little time to consider his options without losing ground to the Tories.
If he reduces VAT, it could have an immediate effect on people's Christmas shopping and boost his standing. Whether it is a good economic decision is not the point. It is a good political decision in preparation for a General Election in the early part of the year before unemployment etc begins to rise.
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You need to seperate the general from the specific. I didn't name names or give examples because that just sets the fanbois off. So, you might want to to tone some of that down because it's not helpful.
On personality and culture: you've probably got enough understanding if you want to pick the stuff up and run with it. I might wrap it up in Feng-shui waffle but it's that or enduring 5000 word essays which I don't want to write and you don't want to read. That's Nick's job and he's better at it.
Returning to photography: it's possible to overthink and sit on your ass building up anxiety. Finding a hobby to counter that just helps me calm down and feel better: it turns my inner homicidal sociopath off for moment and gives me some peace. It's nothing, really, just a slight of hand to wind up somewhere better rather than dead.
Moaning, drinking, and queuing - The Telegraph.
Oh, deary me. I'll keep my Zen, thanks.
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#172 phoenixarisenq wrote:
"I support you. But maybe I'm doing you no favours. I will be referred and moderated for this, and you too will disappear into the void. John Milton or Dante could have created wonderful verse concerning our nemesis!"
Nice to have a response that doesn't just assume that I'm a right/ centre/ left wing type.
Just a bloke who always hopes that any government would make a reasonable fist of mangaging our money.
Never expected that a "New Labour" admistration (which I hoped would make a difference) think it was a good move to
destroy simple personal ambition.
All that "means tested" stuff applying to
poor folk or pensioners just doesn't seem very right.
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178 sagamix
You have a year and a half to work it out. My money is on you voting Tory. DC will morph and GB will stagnate and things will not suddenly get better, more gloom to come. LibDems still seem to find it difficult to unseat the incumbents. Mind you it may not matter what you vote, it is those around you who can swamp the ballot box.
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Post 177
Savings take money out of the economy and leads to unemployment which is a drain on the state purse. What you are advocating is a 'stop the economy and rebuild it on a sound basis' model. It will be very painful and will last for years. The 'keep everything going and pay for it later' model which is being suggested by most economists will be less painful but will probably leave us working with a defective model.
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180 Eton
Quite right too, someones got to pay for all this mess eh? Can't believe your still supporting it!
Never mind takes allsorts I suppose.
Anyway my point was on Friday you fellows were all over this blog like a tramp with hot sausages, no conspicuously missing.
Hmmmmmm.
Just wondering whether it's the taste of crow, or just a wee bit embarried that Gordon, has upset the apple cart so soon after such a temultous victory. Which as Gordon said, was a vote of confidence.
God! someone tell that Emperor he has no clothes on!
Eton, watch your tail they way your hero is going we may all be out of work soon.
Have a good evening.
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190 Eatonrifle
I'm not a tory boy and I hope you are right with your economic forecast because uplift is badly needed and I do not care that much who steers the ship as long as the job is done properly. I doubt you are right and I am not convinced the job has been done properly in the last 5 years. I doubt GB and some of his cronies, but not all Lab MPs by any means.
Glenrothes was not a national referendum, it was a local election and the result doesnt mean that much which is what I said before the event. Couldnt understand why it was blown out of all proportion. The SNP lost the opportunity rather than Labour winning - in what was a Labour stronghold. The same may happen in a GE, it depends on the opposition.
However incumbents tend to lose power rather than oppositons win it, and at the moment GB still is heading in that direction. The fact that essentially all parties have some commonality in strategy tells you how bad it could be economically next year.
There is evidently not a lot of room to manouevre now and may not be much whoever gets in after the GE. Public sector cuts will come whoever is in, you cannot prop up constant or expanding expenditure and expanded debt on a shrunk economy with no obvious growth sector. It is just inevitable.
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The Hunt for Red October was orginally intended to be a star vehicle for Alec Baldwin. He said that when he heard Sean Connery was going to play Captain Ramius he privately scoffed at the thought of that aging burn-out filling a role. But, when he first saw Connery with the salt and pepper hair and beard admitted that he knew who the star of the movie was going to be, and it wasn't him.
The Hunt for Red October is one of my all-time favourite action movies, and it has a great soundtrack that would even make a capitalist cry. Folks of a more rightwing leaning may wish to look up The Parallax View. It's a bit of a curveball but another killer movie with a strong political subtext is The Clan of the Cave Bear.
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199 boilerbill
Fair comment. The situation is still basically the one faced in the US, take a bloody nose and pay, one way or the other or let things potentially deteriorate and see unemployment rise and property become unsaleable. It is difficult to argue against taking the hit and paying later and whatever damage is downstream Brown knows there are not many in the electorate who will stand up and argue against tax breaks to put money in their pocket or protect their jobs and their asset value so he is being quite clever with it. Dont fancy the bill though. The system was never going to be rebuilt, take too long and roots too deep.
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203
.............ok thanks.............
You can buy the new Indiana Jones film in Morrisons for eight quid, and that has aliens in it!
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197 fairlyopenminded
Think there is going to be a load more means tested stuff come in. Looks as though they are building up to trying to scrapping council house occupants rights to buy, and long term tenancy rights, and would like means tested council rents. It really is very difficult to see much difference between the Labour party and the Conservative party at times, surprisingly in common at times.
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The panto season has arrived.Prudance has been sold for a bag of beans.Now the question is will we get a gaint killer to climb the bean stork and bring back the golden eggs.Or is our goose cooked
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re: 209, fedupofguildford
I'm tired of Widow Gordy and his Wishee Washee chancellor. Britain's booing them off the stage but they're taking no notice... roll on 2010.
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I generally welcome Cameron's support for creating jobs and retaining employees. This is a complete U-turn and I remain sceptical about how well thought through his ideas are and how deep his committment is. Is it just more of the same telling people what they want to hear, or a genuine change?
The Tories still lack the sort of business vision I'm looking for, and their members and wider constituents haven't accepted that they share a responsibility and may need to give back to the broader business community and society. By that, I mean valuing the contribution of those lower down the chain in a meaningful way.
So, again, I'm left calling for a better R&D focus and the wealthy middle-class who did well out of the incomes redistribution of the Thatcher years to give back some of what they took. That means better opportunity and fair pay, job enrichment and a little squealing as the wealthy find everyone else getting a free roll of the dice.
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I want to see silence from the conservatives and liberals. there really is no need for policy releases.
whenever they announce anything, gordon brown dreams up a new way to appear to have introduced them (so they can no longer use them to attack the government) whilst the small print and actual implemented government policy does what tey wanted it to do, via the small print back door.
the only time that conservative or liberal policies are relevant is when a general election is called, and the opposition parties have seen the UK books.
brown made this mess, let him stew and stop giving him ideas!
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Interest rates going down
Tax going down
Election coming soon
Could these events be in any way related?
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From Chamelion
In his speech he said unemployment should not be seen as an "unavoidable consequence of recession".
Thanks Dave. Would this be the same level of concern about unemployment that we saw after the infamous "Labour isn't working" campaign fro Satchi and Satchi, the original Spin Doctors.
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Horrible thought: I just saw a documentary film on BBC 2 about the relationship between Nazi Germany and Communist USSR. No difference between Stalin and Hitler, no difference between Brown and Cameron.
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All this borrowing, no one ever talks about the day it comes to paying it back, if you have any spare cash get out there and buy some gold, by the the time Brown is voted out the country will be bankrupt and the pound worthless!!!!!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
213 Dist
Possibly
214 Eaton
Labour isn't working
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I think Brown fancies his chances after the Glenrothes by-election and the Osborne yacht fiasco.
Is this a case of tax cut and run?
A sneaky snap election, perhaps?
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190:
You must be one of the few bloggers on here still salivating over Glenrothes. As far as the Bullingdon crack goes it's more likely that Mandelson will do a naughty than George or David. I think you'll find that George may well be out of the picture in DC's next reshuffle anyway. As for an Election next year I doubt it very much. There will be many more disgruntled voters by then and Gordon Brown will want to cling to power as long as he can because when he goes to the country he'll be gone.
I'm a great fan of Californication. David Duchovny's line I thought was very apt in Episode 5 of Season 2. "Shut out this _ _ _ t immediately!"
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What is needed is a transfer from the rich (who will save anything that they gain) to the poor (who will spend it)
The trick is to find a way of doing this without the rich simply running away and taking their income with them.
In this context I do not see how an increase in inheritance tax threshold has any place it will not reenter the economy soon enough to make much difference.
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In the original story, once the Emperor was exposed as naked, everyone woke up. In the sequel, we now see that everyone just decided that naked was the new in-fashion.
The nonsense that is emanating from our political masters is now so far beyond reason that sensible debate is just not possible. Sadly, circumstances will bring this whole charade to a conclusion - i.e. the country will collapse. Our money will become utterly valueless. I therefore suggest, since we are now inhabiting a surreal existence, that we make Robert Mugabe our next Chancellor of Exchequer. he has ample experience of of a valueless currency.
Or maybe I will soon wake up and realise this was just a nightmare!
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#137. U9461192 wrote
I think the economic situation of the Nation is very grave indeed. (as do many commentators - including the Bank of England see 1.5 per cent)
The Nation will not collapse but I am not at all convinced that I can see appropriate steps being taken by any politicians so I am pinning my hopes on a National Government. Labour have managed us into this condition even through many people warned them of its imminent arrival. The Bank of England were similarly warned.
The Tories simply do not have much experience and that they do have is in David Cameron's place of working on the dismantling of regulation and the very steps that let to the destruction of credit and confidence. Nick Clegg is inexperienced but may a moderating force.
All of them if together may be free from political competition for a while in which state may let them take the appropriate decisions. (some of which I set out earlier.)
Both Labour and Tory parties are equally responsible for setting up and maintaining the capitalist system for the last twenty years. The Tories have a long history of dismantling regulation (dating from the initiator Margaret Thatcher's time) for decades. It is the very dismantling of regulation that gave rise to the conditions that Labour continued with that led to the credit crunch.
We have no real choice but to use the politicians that we have, unless anybody else has any ideas? I don't like any of them much but I hope if we can construct the conditions to stop them quarrelling like cats in a sack for a year or so they might just do the best for the country. Then of course they will all have to go in a democratic way through the ballot box. We need a realignment. We need political parties that stand for something, and not for the same thing. But that can wait until the immediate emergency is past 2012/14?.
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#215. phoenixarisenq
wrote:
"no difference between Brown and Cameron"
has that just dawned on you!
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#213. DistantTraveller
wrote:
"Election coming soon"
Aren't things already too serious for that?
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On the subject of inheritance tax my parents who died two years ago were far from wealthy middle earners. We were stung heavily on inheritance tax because of the high cost of housing in The South East. To see this money snatched by Gordon Brown and chucked down a bottomless pit of expenditure still rankles with me and my sisters. Of course those who are not involved in making these payments don't care about the likes of us. My father worked tirelessly for The Government and received an OBE for his contribution to Science research. It wasn't until The Opposition made a move on this last year that The Government belatedly did anything about this pernicious tax.
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#225. John_from_Hendon
John, I hang my head in shame
#217 power_to_the_people
A geisha?
By the way, hope your cold is better, or did you nip it in the bud?
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Guys, I've referred personal attacks to moderation. That's not "censorship" and going on about it isn't helping. Plus, someone referring an on-topic comment I made about Cameron's latest economic statement is what, exactly?
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re: 228, phoenix
Evenin! I'm recovering, ta. (Love the pun by the way. Hehe.)
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#226 John_from_Hendon
me: "election coming soon"
You: "Aren't things too serious for that?"
Even if true to form Gordon delays it for as long as possible, the next election must come within the next 17 months. That's not soon enough for some!
In deciding the timing, the question for Gordon is whether "things can only get better", or will they get worse?
Up till now, Gordon has stood for tax, borrow, spend and waste. The fact that he is now suggesting tax cuts shows he knows the game is up...
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#223 XCAnderson
Your reference to the story of the Emperor's New Clothes is apposite.
In our reality, even the cupboard is bare!
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well good evening everyone!
Not been to this neck of the blogging woods, but my goodness! A feisty place to be!
Can I sue the political parties for plagiarism? I suggested many measures to rescue the economy on a different blog some time ago, and a lot of then have bubbled up in the last couple of days....
I guess that means that some civil servants somewhere have the erroneous task of blog watching, then reporting salient points to be used in political posturing and brownie point scoring.
Some things however remain unresolved or unsaid:
Don't so as I so, do as I tell you
No inquiries nor prosecutions for fraud
Isn't bringing a country to it's knees treason?
When can we expect a ban on off shore bank accounts?
Why not take all the bail out money back and give it back to the people? That way, newly redundant, struggling employed, pensioners etc will have money for food, heat, fuel to get to work and Christmas.
Reduce fuel tax duty
Insist energy costs are halved immediately or slap on a windfall tax
Remove expense allowances for MP's
Fine those bankers personally for their disgraceful gluttony (in the region of their bonuses at least for the last couple of years)
Prosecute for tax evasion - those with massive offshore monies.
Public apologies (I've only heard one so far)
Publication of balance sheets and full details of off book debt (including UK plc)
PAYS, NI and Vat holiday for 1 Year for SME's
Significantly large personal allowance increases for low and middle class workers
A ban on quangos, spin doctors and jargonese
An interest rate rise to encourage investment
Reintroduction of MIRAS
A ban on ridiculous projects like ID cards and overseas Armed Forces commitments
A ban on unnecessary globe trotting for politicians seeking to show their arrogant faces as the world saviours
Investment in emerging UK industries
Wiping off credit history more than 2 years old
All the above will help to keep unemployment to the minimum, as this is what will increase spending dramatically in the coming months.
Ban credit cards, and make lenders lower their interest rate to something nearer 8% instead of 28%
Ban all overseas call centres - make these UK based (I'd prefer to ban them altogether personally)
Force banks to adjust their nodus opperandi to give bank managers the ability to overuse computers and deal with people directly
Make banks offer independent financial advice-one of the great strengths of B&B
I, for one, am sick to death of the arrogance of GB. He thinks the electorate are stupid and has no idea how and no wish to relate to the ordinary working folk who are in financial difficulty. Not everone borrowed more than they could afford-but just look at the example set by banks and our chancellors!
I have offered to interview GB, AD and MK to pin them down about all this-why can noone stop their waffle in it's tracks and demand clear answers?
The more they spin their mirrors and blow their smoke, the less credibility they have!
How dare they treat us like mushrooms?
Will someone PLEASE tell me how to make GB and his cronies eat humble pie, stop telling the world they have all the answers and sort this mess out now?
A lot of sense is talked on this (and other) blogs-we should form a Bloggers Party, and sort out these incompetent politicians.
Voice of the people is supposed to be our MP's. Bring back Oliver Cromwell!
(I'll duck now!)
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I got a kick in the head a few years ago but don't blame the government. I don't think "light touch" regulation or a consumer bubble has helped things but the CBI and their Tory pals share a lot of the responsibility for that, and quality of management and wealth distribution has a lot to do with that. Nobody likes giving up power, status, or wealth: they tend to scream a lot and cause more trouble.
Now, the big issue with management is a serious lack of training and kicking away of the ladder. Income distribution has been savagely skewed in favour of middle to high income earners. Unwinding the poor legacy of Thatcherism isn't something you do overnight. Heck, Bill Clinton nearly lost his arm when he tried to create an American NHS for similar reasons.
Sure, you feel you've lost out and the government hasn't done enough. Hurt tends to generate anger and if you're not getting any clear feedback it can grow. But, how reasonable is this? Are you correct to lay the blame at the government's door, or is it just an irrational grudge? I can't answer that question but you may find value in reflecting on it. Forget the government being honest. Can you be honest with yourself?
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Hey, Pot_kettle and other boys and girls from Tory party central office.
What about the poll in tomorrows Times?
Things are changing....for the better.
Bill McFadden
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apologies for some odd errors in my previous post-my phone has really odd predictive text sometimes!
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# 233
Nice post, but I have to disagree with one point. Instead of Cromwell could I suggest Guy Fawkes?
A man ahead of his time...
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Chuck_E_Hardwidge @229
"Guys, I've referred personal attacks to moderation. That's not "censorship" and going on about it isn't helping."
Of course it is censorship.
(And I'm not here to be 'helpful').
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I am upset by David Cameron on tv this morning. This high unemployment is down to goverment.
There quick fix for the housing problems is to put families in temporary accomodation.
Which in turn the rent can be as high as £400 a week.
Tell me how can anyone return to work with rent so high. the local borough's can place you there for up to 7 years.
this is an unemployment prison. you need to scrap this as like me a young mother. I am unable to work and secure this type of rent. The housing benifit which is ment to assist you. can be as little as a third if you want to work full time.
to pay an employer to take on staff is ridiculous as the housing problems should be addressed.
If you have stable accomodation, you will find a stable job.
wake up and really look at who you are trying to help. ask your self why do we not want to work. maybe the answer is in a previous act of goverment.
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glanafon @ 198
My money is on you voting Tory.
Okay, that's done - 2 pounds @ 50 to 1 - I'll let you know if you've won.
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Well thank you Gordon Brown - Wuppee Tax Cuts at last a return on the £1500 per month tax I've been paying for years.
But wait a minute I've just been made redundant from the Housebuilding industry, so I won't get my tax back - well you could say the £65 a week dole money is the same thing, couldn't you?
have these people no idea what's going on in the real world.
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#190...
Thank you for providing me with my early morning laugh.
Here's a slightly more credible timeline....
Nov/Dec 2008
Government announces tax cuts (or rather freezes) costing £5bn. Criticised for "too little too late."
BoE cuts rates by another 0.5% to 2.5%
Banks cannot pass on cut citing LIBOR at 4.25%
Jan/Feb 2009...
Economy confirmed in recession with a contraction of 0.5% GDP.
Retailers suffer the worst Christmas sales on record, redundancies are inevitable.
Unemployment tops 2m.
House prices and sales flat.
Repossessions top 50,000.
Bank of England cuts rates by another 0.5% to 2%
CPI inflation reported at 2%, BoE concerned that "deflation is a very real and present danger to the economy"
June/July '09
Economy contracts again 0.5% GDP
Unemployment tops 2.25m
Government announces borrowing requirement hit 90bn pounds. The outlook for 2010 is 110bn pounds.
IMF issues another warning that excessive government spending is slowing economic recovery.
A run on the pound pushes it down to $1.20, record highs against the euro.
Manufacturing in a full recession. Banks complaining that balance sheets are taking much longer to repair. With no incentive to save, falling asset prices, returns are hard to achieve.
Unemployment tops 2.5m
BoE cuts rates by 0.25% to 1.75% in a bid to increase consumption.
Banks report that 'the worst is over', LIBOR falls below 1.5% for the first time since 2008.
Dec 2009.
Economy contracts 0.25% GDP
BoE cuts rate to 1.5%
Retail sales still falling, Christmas again expected to be as bad as '08.
Government Gilts to raise debt largely unsold. City unimpressed with rate of return.
Government places pressure on the BoE to increase bank rate "as a temporary measure" to raise additional government borrowing.
Chancellor announces pay-freeze for "all public sector employees"
Strike action begins in protest.
House repossession hit 80,000.
Public hostility to 'excessive' public spending and government waste. Demand further tax cuts.
Unemployment hits 2.75m
Jan/Mar 2010.
BoE increases rates again on government pressure to increase borrowing to 130bn for 2011 to cover the costs of unemployment benefit & welfare.
Government cannot rule out tax increases as government gilts remain unattractive to the city.
Strike action continues.
Pressure on public sector pay has the unions unwilling to bankroll Labour any longer.
Back-bench revolt and Government bows to pressure for a modest CPI pay increase for public sector employees.
Public angry with poor handling of the economy and public sector pay increases.
IMF issue another warning that excessive government borrowing is prolonging recession and delaying recovery.
GDP contracts again by 0.1% GDP. The worst maybe over but the recovery will be slow and no return to the 'feel-good' factor until 2012.
Unemployment tops 3m.
Opposition detail a £50bn tax cutting package to kick-start economy funded by cutting government waste, abolition, streamlining and privitisation of some government agencies.
Labour swept away in May.
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CEH @ 234:
Sorry but your explanation doesn't make me feel any more sympathetic towards The Government. Not really very surprising is it? I hear this morniing that DC is taking family homes out of Inheritance tax. Good for him but too late for us and many more families whose parents died over the past 10 years.
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#241
have these people no idea what's going on in the real world.
No. Not a clue. These are party wonks and left wing academics promoted to the highest office in the land. Their idea of a broad education is reading esoterict texts by Marx, Marx' biographers, trade union history, the left wing philosophers etc etc.
The Labour apologists are beginning their long march on David Cameron, Eton, class war etc hoping to bring it to the boil come election time but a quick look at their hierarchy reveals them to be from the same upper middle class that they claim to despise in the Tories.
'Son of the Manse' is not a coal-miners son. It's the son of the highest ranked man in the village. The priest. Right up there in all socio-economic scales with doctors. Gordon Brown had a privileged up-bringing hence getting his head kicked playing rugby. All part of that drive to get something on your CV come university entrance time.
Likewise the Millibands and any number of other Labour front-benchers. All the product of a highly honed education paid for by wealthy parents or (in the case of Brown) connected parents who knew how to work the system.
Anyway, the point is their entire life has been dedicated to absorbing the doctrine of socialism and assuming political power. Because it is by espousing the doctrine of socialism that you 'shine' in the 'party'. Hence Gordon Brown being regarded by the socialists as a genius. Which, on the metric of 'knowing a lot about socialist history' that defines a good party member is probably fair.
How that qualifies him to manage people, prioritise or run the country is open to question. Actually it isn't. As events have shown he is manifestly incapable of running anything. Except running for cover. He's real good at that.
As for being any good at all at basic maths then he is your classic 'liberal arts' product. Utterly useless. A Nick Leeson of a chancellor. Just keep betting more and more money and hope it comes up red eventually.
Oh, shame. It came up black. Well, that's what happens if you play roulette with an entire economy.
Gordon Brown's problem is that all his life his mum, his school, his party have all been telling him how clever he is. A 'cleverness' entirely based on his encyclopaedic/photographic ability to remember obscure historical facts. His arrogance has led him to believe that the same 'cleverness' entitles him to run the country And that he'll actually be capable of doing it.
Now 50 million people can see that he isn't. He hasn't the qualities of leadership, the vision, the communication skills, the basic maths. Nothing. He's just an over-promoted incompetent. The Peter Principle in action. Along with his entire cabinet.
The only Labour ex-minister worth considering is John Reid. He appears to have the odd honest bone in his body. The rest of them are crooks, incompetents and political whores whose legacy is now fated to be the final destruction of the UK's economy.
No. They don't have a clue. But watch their swaggering arrogance anyway. The Labour cabinet is like Michael Portillo (pre-1997 - he seems much better these days) had been cloned and put back in government 10-fold. The better to sneer at us.
One of the things I'm really looking forward to is all these perfect 'Portillo moments' come the next election as the legions of the Labour damned get the P45 they so desperately deserve.
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"Eatonrifle wrote:
Evening Tory Boys.
Come to terms with Glenrothes yet and what it means?"
Yeah, it means pretty much diddly squat.
Labour throws everything they have at a by-election in their heartland and they win it with a reduced majority - hardly the ringing endorsement that Brown seems to think it is.
Yet he still seems to think that it means that the voters are behind him - no Gordon it means very little, if you really want to know if the voters are behind you call a general election, let everyone decide and not just a Labour heartland (course he wouldn't do that as even with the so-called Brown bounce Labour would still lose a general election).
Brown knows that tax cuts are win-win for him. If he wins he gets to ruin the country for another 5 years and if he loses he leaves the Tories with a debt moutain to clear.
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I think one of the reasons I am doubly annoyed with this Government is the way in which they changed the rules regarding early retirement, in my particular case a teachers pension. I was not a high ranking teacher but worked full time since 1970 and I am by no means wealthy as you seem to imply that those who are subject to IHT are. Having undergone a triple by pass, a heart attack, the fitting of two stents and a melanoma in my left eye I was forced to take early retirement with a much reduced teacher's pension. My best friend who as a Headmaster was stricken down with bowel cancer and now wears a colostomy bag had to endure a rigorous series of means tests before he was eventually awarded a full pension. In spite of this you see countless unworthy benefits claimants swanning around with thousands of pounds handed out willy nilly by The Government. The proceeds from our family home was a lifeline needed to ensure some quality of life in my remaining shortened years. I am not and never have been stinking rich. Those who have the means to do so are able to exploit tax loopholes and feather their already comfortable nests with impunity.
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239. westlondon1
I really sympathise with this lady, and with all young people trying to keep families together. However, as much as I dislike this government, I do not blame them for the unemployment situation. For years, I've observed and experienced, the greedy attitude of British employers, rather employing cheap untrained youngsters, or preferably even cheaper foreigners. Perhaps if government can be blamed, it is the offices of immigration and the justice system, which are lax in taking up cases, fining where relevant and deporting where possible.
The housing shortage can to a certain extent be blamed on the Thatcher era, when public housing was sold off. Council tenants were able to buy public property, and then instead of sitting back to live in their own homes, became "petty property investors", selling off state lands for quick personal profits. Many of these greedy little investors soon fell back on the mercy of local authorities for new housing. Nu Labour has not concentrated on building for the working class, they are too busy housing foreigners and the native-born disfunctional. Hence, social housing has in large part become a giant sink estate. Now they are housing people in expensive private property, elections will be coming around, and they want to "fill targets".
David Cameron is basically not really any different from Brown and his crew. Government interference, "Paying people to employ other people", sticking plaster first aid to stop a haemorrhage.
Strict observance to civil law, prevention of illegal labour, an end to overseas landlords exploiting the needy. this is all the involvement needed, not Nanny State foolishness.
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Good morning all, long time no chat!!
Apologies in advance if words similar to mine have been posted already, I've not had an opportunity yet to read the entire thread.
The Spanish government of Zapatero, after consultation with the major Spanish banks, have announced a moratorium for mortgage repayments until 2010. It's isn't clear whether this excludes interests amounts due, but given the "helping hand" for our major banks, can those same banks not reciprocate in an effort to stimulate the British economy? I'd imagine this notion would be particularly beneficial for the presently unemployed, is the idea do able in the UK nor not ??
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Lets Get one thing clear
Brown is not proposing any tax cuts.
All he is talking about is delaying introducing some of his unpopular ones.
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As Goprdon Brown has just said at his press conference. The Tories have no strategy to deal with anything - they are constantly announcing random and at times contradictory initiatives simply to try and grab a few headlines.
They are clueless, Cameron and Osborne are obviously out of their (very shallow) depth.
Pot_Kettle perhaps you can help me.
Given that the recent episode with George Osborne and the yatch did not amount to very much. Why is he behaving like a man who is expecting his guilty secret to be exposed at any minute?
No longer the arrogant, smug look of the Bullingdon club photo.
I think we should be told!
Bill McFadden
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This may be a simplistic view of helping to aleviate our current crisis in the area of personal taxation, helping the most vulnerable and making the taxation system more teransparent and not the stupifying nonsensical structure it now is with inpenetrable red tape scaring those in most need away from claimiimg what they are entitled to.
1. Raise personal tax allowances to 10,000 - removing all those who are the most vulnarable from the tax system removing the need for tax credits or other such nonsense
2. Introduce a 10p tax band (OH! we used to have one of those) from 10,000 to 15,000 again to assist the low earners
3. 20p tax band from 15,000 - 30,000
4. 40p Tax band from 30,000 - 75,000
5. 45p tax band for 75,000 and above
And everyone pays the tax they are due at the appropriate rates, no dodges to avoid paying into the system.
I know this is probably a La Manchian dream
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U @ 244
The only Labour ex-minister worth considering is John Reid.
I rather fear that you're not so very wrong about Gordon Brown.
JR though, no thank you - a "hard man" isn't he? - which always means macho bully boy.
See very little wrong with Hazel Blears myself. Also Harriet, Yvette, Jacqui are all okay. And, say what you will, but LM of H and F is, unlike Brown, a genuinely bright bloke.
Plus, Alan Johnson's not the most terrible politician on the planet.
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250 Bill
Can't you see, Poor Darling is finished, everytime he's asked a question he's like a rabbit in the headlights.
He can't say anything unless he gets the nod from Gordon.
Brown has proved his economic Stratergy was smoke and mirrors, and is currently double hatting two jobs. Darling is purely there to spout out todays knee jerk response to public opinion.
The clunking fist has not vision, now appropriately it looks like he has no future.
With a great deal of luck he may not drag us down with him.
I say luck, as that is what it seems he is basing all his economic skills on now.
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#244
Excellent post. It just about sums up everything that's wrong with this shower. Don't forget the civil servants who surround Brown who only open their mouths to tell him how right/clever he is.
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how about Oliver Cromwell and Guy Fawkes? A truly dynamic duo! (I did suggest GF on another post last week!)
David Cameron suggests NI relief for employing jobless-sorry to state the obvious, but he obviously can't see that companies are doing all they can to survive-you only employ more staff when you need them-companies need sales first. It's all they can do not to lay off their workers, let alone employ more!
There should be substantial fiscal support for employers now to ensure they can at least keep the staff they have.
Love the time lines BTW-you missed out increasing suicides, domestic violence, street crime, deaths of the elderly and massive local authority building of homes to house the repossessed families!
Re LIBOR rate-MSN reported last Friday that the 3month and overnight rates were at May and February 2004 levels-yet banks are obviously not lending to each other still. Could it be they all have skeletons in the closet still?
As a business facility, I think LIBOR is dead and buried!
I did offer maths lessons to the government but they weren't interested!
Maybe they should just declare UK plc bankrupt, resign, and put the Bloggers party in power!
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@250
tut tut Bill you didnt mention Toff so your post doesnt warrant a reply.
Tis interesting that Mandy hasnt responded to the revelation that he DID talk to the Russian fellow about Timber tariffs and that said Russian as well as being an aluminium baron is also a Timber baron.
Its ok though he didnt talk to him ON corfu, shh they were off the coast on the yacht (correct spelling) no one will notice the economy of truth will they?
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glen @ 251
That's good - I'd vote for it with just a couple of minor changes. So ...
nil on up to 15,000
10 pc to 25,000
25 pc to 50,000
50 pc to 100,000
75 pc to 1,000,000
90 pc to 5,000,000
99 pc on over that
Yes, that would be about right.
And then no add ons or supplementaries or credits or clawbacks or any of the rest of it. You pay income tax based on income - doesn't matter if you're man or woman, how many kids you've got, how old you are or even what sort of central heating you've got in.
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Nick,
here are some interesting thoughts for you.
Just how inconsistent is our esteemed prime minister?
He spent 10 years as chancellor being rude and not wearing a white tie to Mansion House dinners. what changed? As PM he now wears one. What moral compass tells hime to act in different ways now?
As Chancellor, he spent 10 years preaching to us about prudence, and the importance of the fiscal rules. Now, he's busy promoting the idea of unfunded tax cuts, which of course he was roundly criticizing the other parties about earlier this year. Where is this man's moral compass?
He promised us last year an end to the regime of spin, with government initiatives being leaked in advance to the press, making parkliament itself totally irrelevant in the process. Has this happened? Not as far as I can see.
Only a few weeks ago he was saying that the present crisis was no time for a novice to be at the wheel, yet at the same time he hails Obama, who of course is a novice in these terms, claiming that his new approach will be a guiding light to lead the world out of recession (OK I'm paraphrasing to an extent). So which is it? Experience or inexperience?
He's very busy having our cake and eating it, so no change there in his behaviour over the past 11 years and, as always, he is not being true to his statement of intent, nor to his previous behaviour patterns. He is truly a man for all seasons, the ultimate chameleon but beware, it is wisely said a leoprd cannot change his spots. Two faced will always be two faced.
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#251
Great proposal-certainly workable!
Let's add cuts in fuel tax, vehicle licensing, VAT,employers tax and NI contributions, import and export tax and corporation tax, resurrection of MIRAS, and make football clubs pay their tax and NI. And increase MLR to get investment back. Don't forget investigate and prosecute those who allowed this mess to spiral out of control.
Sounds like a viable plan to me.
Yup! A definite manifesto here. Is this a complete negation of years of stealth taxes?
And so the bloggers party is born!
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Nick,
surely it is about time that people started to address one major problem. We cannot afford to be in the occupation of Iraq and to fight an expensive war in Afghanistan. We are being bankrupted.
Surely, when Gordon Brown went to Saudi Arabia to beg for money the Saudi Arabians would have turned around and said for as long as you are killing our Moslem brothers we cannot support the west. It would have been like America funding Germany in the early days of WWII.
I can only hope that as soon as people see that all politicians are agreed about something then that is the time to be afraid. Debt is not good, I do not want to burden future generations so that my generation can live beyond our means.
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@ 257 - sorry glen, and just for completeness ...
VAT down to 10 pc and Inheritance (aka Death) Tax at a flat rate of 75 pc but only kicking in on estates of 500,000 or more.
This is quite fun, isn't it? - is this what it's like being Gordon Brown?
No wonder he wants to cling to power!
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257 Sagamix
What a frightening totalitarian would you want to live in!!
With that model - anyone earning over £100K would seriously need to consider leaving the UK and moving abroad.
The message to Entrepreneurs - don't bother - take your ideas elsewhere.
Thank-the-lord that the so called "right wing" flank of Labour killed off its left-wing and militant side.
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#261
Excellent! I missed that one out of the Bloggers manifesto! I'll stick that in too!
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247 phoenix
I see you resurfaced a few days ago. Was quiet but I see you have the fire going.
Housing used to be cheap, in the 70's, 10 year mortgages, 2.5 x ave earnings. Housing has been deliberately targeted by successive governments as a way of controlling the population. Houses do not cost that much to build, it is the building land which has become expensive. 60K will build a decent house. The problem is that almost every UK house owner will now oppose cheap land being made available to boost the housing stock as a yet more significant devaluation of house values. Could you imagine the uproar if the supply and demand balance was used to get housing to 50% of todays price.
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Nick,
Ooops.....
You weren't caught celebrating an Obama victory were you??
From today's Times:
Viewers who suspected Nick Robinson had a spring in his step on US election night were not mistaken. “Nick was coming back, I think slightly tipsy, from the American Embassy party and talking about how Gordon Brown and David Cameron would both like to be Barack Obama and clothe themselves in his glory,” said Peter Horrocks, head of BBC TV News. “I think Nick may have had one or two drinks. I wouldn’t be surprised if he hadn’t enjoyed himself a little bit.” It looked like David Dimbleby could have used a stiff drink, too.
Tittle, tattle and gossip
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Oh dear......
Evidence of BBC bias on polling day at Glenrothes???? Surely not!
From yesterday's Evening Standard:
"MORE questionable behaviour from BBC Radio 2. Last Thursday, well before voting finished in Glenrothes, the station's Steve Wright show gave a huge amount of airtime to Alastair Campbell.
The Labour spin doctor, now back in Gordon Brown's inner circle, was ostensibly plugging his latest book but the session turned into a shameless party-political broadcast, with Campbell insisting that voters were returning to the Labour fold.
Strict rules govern political comment on the BBC in the run-up to byelections. How on earth did Wright get away with giving Campbell such a long burst of airtime without having also to interview someone from the Scottish Nationalist, Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties?"
BBC - Fox News for the Left Winger (TM)
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Question for Brown: why is the UK saddled with a structural Budget deficit following 16 years of continuous growth? Ask him the question again and again, because this is his Achilles heel - his only true answer could be because he was irresponsible and borrowed too much when his government should have been running a fiscal surplus.
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264. glanafon
Hi Pal,
Nice to know one is missed. Actually I've been around, had to re-register under new name as a mutual friend kept having me banned. National Enemy Number One - can't imagine what I ever did, save disagree with him.
You are correct concerning house prices, and the furor which would arise if they were levelled to their true price. It's sad the way governments 'control' citizens instead of serving them. Rewards go to the least deserving, i.e. £400,000 pay-offs for police chiefs, peerages for opportunistic businessmen. Ex-soldiers, especially the physically and mentally damaged victims of serving their country get the proverbial b***er all!
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Sometimes, people can be dealt a big blow and be controlled by events. Both Blair and Thatcher found taking on vested interests pretty impossible and just went with the flow. You, me, and the current and aspiring leaders are no different. Hence, the phrase: "People make mistakes and have difficulties". I find it helps encourage me to keep a better sense of perspective.
All entities accumulate damage over time, whether you're talking of people, organisation, or nation states. This damage tends to accumulate until things blow in middle age. I tend to think we're in that sort of time now as new goals and allegiances rise and fall. Sometimes, it can be hard to penetrate that fog. Letting go helps on so many levels and very simple.
...
Reading a comparison of Brown and Cameron's view, I like the sound of Brown's Apollo project style grandeur and his identifying mere detail stands between the various nations and a positive consensus. I've commented, before, that Brown has a similar personality to Steve Jobs and his acceptance of issues which led to the crisis and going for the burn is typical of this personality type.
I agree with the Prime Minister that mere tax cuts for creating new jobs isn't enough. The real key remains business vision and employment liquidity. People need to let go of being so rigid and picky, and entertain new ideas and lower thresholds to giving people a chance, take a hard, hard look at quality of products and services, and invest in employee and customer loyalty. Skill is useful but a better attitude is fundamental to embracing necessary change.
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Just some thoughts on the connection between house prices and the current financial crisis.
Mortgage business used to be the preserve of building societies. They funded themselves with peoples savings and lent the money to house buyers.
It used to be very simple business, with mortgages lasting for 25 years. However, as affluence increased, and house prices began to rise, it became difficult to only lend what came from the traditional sources, i.e. savings weren’t enough to fund the house buyers. So gradually building societies were allowed to garner wholesale deposits from the money markets to finance the mortgage demand.
Two things happened. Banks muscled in to the market via a number of ways, and building societies re-shaped their mortgage packages to be closer to money market structures, which is what banks were offering.
Eventually mortgages offered by banks and building societies were indistinguishable from each other, and some societies converted to banks, and we know what happened to them.
Unfortunately the genie is out of the bottle, and there’s no way to get it back in, and I wish there were. In this world mortgage lending needs to be financed with a mixture of personal savings and money market funding.
About the only weapon a regulator might have is related to the proportion of the mortgage book that each sector may support. If a lender becomes overbalanced, lending more from money market sources (NR, B & B for example) then they must reduce lending overall, and reduce their over-reliance on money market as a source of funding.
Now unless some politician decides it necessary to force house prices down real,tive to wages, such that the old 3 x salary ration can be re-introduced (and I have no idea how that could be achieved) we are stuck with the status quo. Besides, would you really vote for somebody who was going to make you substantially poorer?
I think the opinion polls give us a clue there.
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One of the biggest problems facing the econmy is the stagnant housing market. First time Buyers have disappeared because they expect house prices to continue to fall. Nationwide have themselves told us prices will fall through 2009/10. Why would a FTB commit to buying now if they can buy cheaper in 2 years time?
The answer is to re-introduce MIRAS. MIRAS was withdrawn in 1989 and precipitated the last housing price collapse. If FTBs who commit to buying in the next 12 months are given tax relief on their mortgages for a period of, say, 2 years they will have a real incentive to move now into the market. The cost of buying will be less than the cost of renting and the prospect of prices continuing to fall will be less of a disincentive.
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#267 Crowdedisland
Its a good point, but nobody pushes him on it unfortunately. If we were'nt growing, all his statistics from that era were lies. I we were growing, why didn't he use the revenue raised to pay down debt - and the debt figures absolutle prove that he did NOT pay down any debt. The proportion of public debt realted to GDP is the same now as it was 0 years ago. In absoulte terms, in line with growth, the GDP is higher now that it was then, so in absolute terms the debt level is higher now than it was then.
He can't have it both ways, however hard he tries.
Somebody ask him the question, and keep asking.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
268
I don't know why my comment was referred. I wrote saying to 264 Glanafon, that it's nice to be missed. I explained that I had been referred to moderators so many times, it was like I was National Enemy Number One, for the only reason that I disagreed with a certain blogger.
I also said I agreed with Glanafon regarding house prices. I then stated that the least worthy are rewarded, ex-police chiefs get £400,000 payoffs for not giving satisfaction in their work. Businessmen get peerages, whilst ex-soldiers injured physically or mentally, get almost nothing in today's monetary values. What's so bad about all that?
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267 Crowdedisland
I don't think the media will question Brown very hard on that.
Even Paxo - on TV last night, gave up asking the Labour stooge what the UK's real debt was and seemed satisfied to wait until the "pre-budget" report - which will surely still just be smoke and mirrors.
Nick Robinson, has inadvertently, explained why Brown is being given a soft ride - "it doesn't fit the media narrative".
The media have been looking for a "Brown saved the world and Brown bounce narrative".
I suspect the good times will continue to roll for Brown - as the media 'narrative' looks to talk up the special relationship between the UK and US and there will be some staged love ins between Brown and Obama.
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Nick
Looks like you called it wrong...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7721607.stm
Brown isn't actually talking about tax cuts and stimulating the economy; rater he is talking about, talking about it.
Soon he will announce that he will be annoucing an announcement about making a statement, announcing that there will be an announcement containing lots and lots of really, really 'serious' things - so serious that you can't even begin to imaging how serious - (and I think It'll be called surfball).
Brown says "serious times need serious solutions" -- no doubt he will announce some "serious solutions" -- just as soon as he can think of some... or even one...
This is dithering big time.
And he goes on to say that he is sure the rest of the world are making plans, and as soon as he knows what they are, he will show that he thought of them first and is leading the way (look I'm at the front! which way are we going? that way? ok - look I'm at the front! its me! - what that way? ok - look at me I'm at the front!)
Maybe be he is hopeing that the recession will be over before he actually has do do anything.
Also seems he is taking elecution lessons from Prescott:-
that is actually how you do a fiscal stimulus.
Sheesh...
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The historical norms and standards are that top earnings are generally no more than 10 times the lowest earnings. 100K is a ballpark number. Studies suggest that most people are generally happy with this sort of earnings structure. Genuine entrepreneurs who add serious value are rare. We're talking less than 1% of any population. A flash suit and a .COM address doesn't cut it.
Big companies and big earners have to become more receptive to the bottom. As I've commented before, if you don't water the roots the leaves on the tree wilt and die. As a friend commented a few years ago: "Whatever happened to enlightened self-interest?" I think, it got buried under the lies and greed that spewed forth from Thatcherism. Rediscovering better alternatives seems like a good idea.
While the American's have stereotypical behaviour in product development and will sell anything to anyone, the Japanese value quality and service. I'm not suggesting we should aim for Mars before the decade is over or put smiling Geisha at every shop door but the general focus has value: it helps put purpose and people back into the heart of business and society and, I think, that's something we've all forgotten.
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@269
So you contend that Brown is like Steve Jobs. I think you are correct
He takes others ideas then and puts them into production.
Jobs used to work at Parc for Xerox the GUI and mouse technology he and his mate wosniak used for Mac was not their intelectual property.
Brown hasnt had an original idea that would work since birth. Every idea of his own has turned to dust. His only sucesses have come from other peoples ideas.
And he is supposed to be a great intelect.
More like that brain sucking Psiren from Red Dwarf
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#266 Perhaps people ought to register complaints!
At the rate it's going we might be able to get Radio 2 shut down by Christmas!
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#274 phoenixarisenq
I get the same problems with regard to the well known walker, and it is infuriating.
Still we have to retain our sense of humour, and become ingenious about making the point in ways that can't be moderated severely.
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jc @ 262
anyone earning over ?100K would seriously need to consider leaving the UK and moving abroad.
Ah but that's where border controls come in - didn't mention that because we were just talking tax.
Seriously, my scheme is good for low and middle earners, neutral on high earners and tough but necessary on very high earners.
Any of those in the latter group want to up sticks and leave, absolutely no problem - makes more room for others to move up, doesn't it?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
276 The-real-truth
Interesting article....... though the media still didn't press Brown on this claim:
"He claimed the UK's "low public debt" meant it could afford to borrow money to pump money into the economy."
..... yes - really Mr Brown......... ?!!
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@277
You can say what you like about watering roots or the leaves die.
Zen unfortunately is all in the mind.
In reality if you tax the top earners more they either leave or pay someone to save them paying the tax
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Nick
There is at least one good thing about the incoming recession, it should stop the Cooper Balls of this world harping on about the early 90 Tory recession. Now they have their own and it looks like it is a pretty good one too!!!but of course , silly me' it is a global one ,we are the victims and had nothing to do with the causes of it. Every member of the actual government must use the world GLOBAL at least 20 times every time they intervene in public, otherwise it is pants down and 6 of the best administered by Crash Gordon himself !!! Doing so they hope to bore us into believing it, more worryingly it looks as if the ministers start to believe it too!!!
Apparently the dodgy lord had a few chats with his russian friend about tarriffes , the BBC has been extremely quiet about it.
Is it worth it a little research or the BBC does not want us to distract us from Brown's masterclass in recession bursting!!
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Similar things could be said of George Stephenson and John Carmack, both superstars in their respective fields. People like this tend to be visionaries and integrators, and it's the magic pixie dust they sprinkle on that raises their products above the mere pastiche.
It takes something to realise the value in something and make the judgement call. Just copying something or following the crowd, or judging things with perfect hindsight isn't the same thing. You've also got to deliver it, sell it, and keep the show on the road. That takes skill.
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#258 ex tuga
I agree with much of what you write. However, as Eaton has pointed out, the poll in today's Times suggests that the public believes that Brown is the best guy to get us out of this mess.
How has the arsonist become the public's leading firefighter?
I believe there are 3 reasons;
1) At a time of national crisis it is in the nature of the British to support their leader; and Brown is doing very well at portraying himself as a statesmanlike figure
2) Brown's constant repetition of the UK being well placed because it has low debt has been so often repeated and so little challenged by the media that the public are (seemingly) increasingly beginning to believe that perhaps he wasn't the guy with the petrol can and matches
3) The Conservative's contribution to the debate has been woeful to date. This sort of scenario is difficult for oppositions because they can readily be accused of making matters worse by talking the economy down. But what we need to see from them is consistency, strength and gravitas. Unfortunately, I believe they have, to date, scored 0 out of 3.
I am no fan of Brown; I would like to see him gone. But unless the Conservatives get their act together they could grab defeat from the jaws of victory.
Cameron - time to get tough. A good starting point would be to conduct a serious review of the Shadow cabinet's effectiveness. I can think of one member immediately who should be given more time to enjoy his passion for sailing.
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Why would a FTB commit to buying now if they can buy cheaper in 2 years time?
The answer is to re-introduce MIRAS. MIRAS was withdrawn in 1989 and precipitated the last housing price collapse. If FTBs who commit to buying in the next 12 months are given tax relief on their mortgages for a period of, say, 2 years they will have a real incentive to move now into the market
While on one level I support the idea of MIRAS - after all it does seem unfair to ask people to pay tax before they put a roof over their head the only effect that would have might be to stoke the cost of housing to even more ridiculous levels at some future point. Perversely, what I think we need, is to get this recession out of the way as quickly as possible. At the moment all we're doing is prolonging the agony by seeking to prop up the price of our insanely over-valued property.
What we need to do is prompt a rush for the door - get property down to sensible prices. Simple. Announce that from (say) 1st May 2009 any capital gain on property will be taxed at 40%. Ie give people enough warning to get their property marketed and sold. Those who have remortgaged for life's little luxuries like 4x4s, Plasma TVs and all-inclusive holidays in Cancun won't be able to sell without getting a tax-bill they can't pay so they'll be forced to sit tight and pay off their debts. Good, the right folk getting their just desserts.
That should do the job. Property crash out of the way by 1st May as folk rush to get their money out. Property at a newer, lower, more affordable level. Property speculation discouraged by the thought of handing 40% of any gain to the thieves of Westminster.
Once our national obsession with property and the 'good' effects of it being insanely over-priced are out of the way we can get on with the business of redirecting our money to more fruitful lines of business.
As for funding tax cuts. Again. Dead easy. Simplify the tax system and then fire all the civil servants who were administrating the old, more complex system. Should be able to halve the payroll at elast.
Fire the entire BBC licencing operation. Sell the BBC to Rupert Murdoch or Al Jazeera.
Fire at least half the DVLC people. Fire everybody connected with ID cards and cancel all the contracts.
Walk through hospitals firing anybody not in uniform. Cancel all their technology contracts.
But those would be 'tough' decisions. What we'll get is the easy decisions. Do you hear that sound? That's the sound of the printing presses down at the Royal Mint. That's the sound of all our futures being flushed down the toilet by the agents of arrogance and incompetence.
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pot @ 284
In reality if you tax the top earners more they leave
Good news, as per 281 ...
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Well, well, given that 'Dave' Cameron has made a major announcement this morning on the Toiries plans to save the economy - it is somewhat surprising that the normal right wing ranters, Pot_kettle etc..... are not singing it's praises more vociferously!
Could it be that you are embarassed by your leaders lack of vision and practical solutions?
You made a big mistake electing him your leader 3 years ago (yes it's over 3 years and he still does not have a plan). You are probably starting to realise that now.
Bill McFadden
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U @ 288
Hey steady on, you're sounding like Rommel now ...
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281 Sagamix
Your income tax scheme is insanity...
It is so riddled with flaws I don't know where to begin!
But a starter for 10......
Once the high earners have left the UK, tax receipts would be down, so the government would be forced to raise taxes on the remaining poorer members of society.
Anyone who would step up and "fill the shoes" of the rich - who had left the UK - may decide themselves to leave themselves due to the colossal tax.
After a while, the UK would be left with a population of 5 - the names being:
- DH Wilkinson
- Grandantidote
- Sagamix
- Balhamu
- CEH (although he is already thinking of moving to be fair)
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re: 292, jonathan_cook
LOL. I think they should start a commune in the woods and practise what they preach. They could gather nuts and berries and read Polly Toynbee articles to each other every night in left-wing harmony... Give it three days and they'll be hardcore Tories.
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@286
Alternatively you could call them what they are Charlatans
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@289
You think its good that the top earners leave.
Welcome to third world living for those that are left then.
I know you lefties dont understand where the money that pays the workers in starbucks comes from but stop the source and there will be nothing left for the bottom
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Oh dear Bill
You forgot to mention toff again.
Personally i dont really care what Dave says now as he isnt the one making any decisions. Gordon Brown is the PM and Chancellor of the Exchequer until such time as he honours us poor minions with an election.
But with his track record of not putting things to the vote It wont surprise me if we dont get a general election on schedule in 2010
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But with his track record of not putting things to the vote It wont surprise me if we dont get a general election on schedule in 2010
It wouldn't surprise me either. No doubt a quick show of hands from the Labour faithful, a hastily appointed super-majority in the Lords and hey-presto, one-party state.
This dementor is capable of anything in his insane lust for power.
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242 Flan
said
"Opposition detail a ?50bn tax cutting package to kick-start economy funded by cutting government waste, abolition, streamlining and privitisation of some government agencies."
The Oldest trick in the Tory Spin book.
We can fund tax cuts by cutting government waste. Yeah right.
Strangely Flan I suspect you'd actually be pleased for your economic doomcast to come true. You must hate it if some economic good news surfaces such as Northern Rock repaying Government ahead of schedule. If you could have a quick recovery from the Global crisis but a Labour win in the next GE OR Your economic doomsday prediction with Labour swept away, what would you prefer. (I think we know)
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296 and 297.
Your paranoia has no bounds. Truly silly (IMO)
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#268
Thank you, Moderator, for returning this comment which was removed. Despite some naughty character, in the end justice reigns. Long Live Sanity, Vive Compus Mentus!
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pot @ 295
You think its good that the top earners leave?
Only if they want to.
I know you lefties dont understand where the money that pays the workers in starbucks comes from but stop the source and there will be nothing left for the bottom
I'm not a big buyer of "trickle down" - it's about as effective as it sounds.
You seem to think that the rich pay the poor. In fact, the opposite is the case.
I'd say that "lefties" are the only people who understand.
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Well, well, getting moderated again. I'd really like to know what was wrong with the posts that have now been removed.
I'd really like to know exactly how they broke the rules that keep getting pointed out to me in the rejection e-mail.
I don't know if a finger has been pointed, and been let do the walking, or if it's some low level busybody who has the job of reading these posts, or if they've got some kind of spam filter that needs to be re-parameterised.
I would refer anybody interested to read the latest dilbert offering, which relates to a spam filter that has gone power mad, and is busy re-designing the company structure.
Let's see if this gets on at all.
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jcook @ 292
Your income tax scheme is insanity
Au contraire, you only think that because it challenges the status quo - see how I've used Spanish and Latin in the same sentence there, Jonathan? - that's what the Left Wing Intellectual Elite can do.
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that's what the Left Wing Intellectual Elite can do.
I'm more exercised by what they can't do. Balance a budget. Run an economy. Admit they haven't a clue.
It's all very well being able to inveigle their way into some impressionable girl's knickers with an apposite quotation from Shakespeare or Robespierre but, as history demonstrates yet again, it doesn't qualify them to run the country.
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re: 303, sagamix
Au contraire, you only think that because it challenges the status quo - see how I've used Spanish and Latin in the same sentence there, Jonathan? - that's what the Left Wing Intellectual Elite can do.
Since when was 'au contraire' Spanish?
See? You leave lefties in charge and Britain goes down the toilet.
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302. At 2:58pm on 11 Nov 2008, herb_igone_ex_tuga wrote:
Well, well, getting moderated again. I'd really like to know what was wrong with the posts that have now been removed.
I always enjoy your comments, so was sad to see them whipped off.
I suggest you make copies and keep them of all blogs you send in. This wise advice was given to me, and it is useful. I have my suspicions why it's happening, but don't have the bottle today to speak out, as it means he will start referring me again and the whole awful war will start up.
Take care, and enjoy life. Remember, this isn't real living!
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@ 304
It's all very well being able to inveigle their way into some impressionable girl's knickers with an apposite quotation from Shakespeare or Robespierre
I wish!
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@ 305
Since when was 'au contraire' Spanish?
Oh come on! - it's as Spanish as cycling back from the shops wearing a beret, with a string of onions round your neck and a baguette squeezed under your armpit ...
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re: 308, sagamix
I used to live with a Frenchman once, and he actually had strings of onions and a beret. Not content with being a stereotype, he was also a Marxist. We didn't get on.
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Did you see Barack Obama do a Del Boy Trotter at his news confernce the other day? ... finished up with a wave to the press and a "bonjour" as he left the room.
What a guy!
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#306 phoenixarisenq
I know, but its so frustrating. I can only get here intermittently since I do have to do some work occasionally.
The whole issue with moderation, apart from its interference with free speech, is that it really slows down the interchange on the thread, as well as making it disjointed.
I suppose you can use the argument that if you disagree vehemently with an opinion then don't listen to it, and go away and avoid it. However, then you lose the opportunity to pose a counter argument, so it becomes a vicious circle, and then you get a war of attrition.
On balance I ain't going away, and u no hoo will get his, and I'll stay calm. Off to get some beer now, I've done enough work for today.
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Fafing around with tax bands is stupid... Flat rate income tax is the only way to go.
All that really matters is peoples take home pay. If you put up the top rate of tax, then the top earners will be paid more to cover the tax - and where will the money come from? It will come as pay cuts for the lower earners - who won't really care because with lower tax their take home pay won't change either...
Income tax bands are a fraud - only the simple minded could think otherwise.
All that matters it a firms total salarly bill and the total amount that the tax man takes - 'who' it comes from means nothing...
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Seems as quiet here as on the other thread.
Might have to go and do something more interesting than watch paint dry.
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Tax cuts?
For whom?
The rich?
Those on benefits (who don't pay tax anyway)?
How about slashing VAT to 10%, that would help EVERYONE.
I bet their idea of a tax cut is "still take 23% (or whatever) from them, they can claim 10% of that back in tax credits"
In otherwords, making more people dependent on state handouts instead of solving the root cause of the problem ... again.
They should now be known to me as "Nothing Nu Labour"
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If I hear Mr Brown refer to "Hard Working Families" again I will scream!!
What about "Hard Working People" I guess those that don't have families either don't work hard or don't matter?
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