Problem for the Tories
The governor of the Bank of England has created a real problem for the Tories. This morning Mervyn King backed the idea of a fiscal stimulus - borrowing to raise spending or cut taxes - which the prime minister's been pushing and the Conservatives have portrayed as irresponsible.
"In these extraordinary circumstances it would be perfectly reasonable to see some use of fiscal stimulus" he said, before adding riders that two conditions should be met. One is that it will be temporary, purely temporary, and secondly is that it will be clear that there was a medium-term plan to bring tax spending back into the sustainable balance over the medium-term." He went on to explain why he backed the idea in the current circumstances. (See his full quote below.*)
Meantime, many Tories who agree with Messrs Cameron and Osborne on borrowing are criticising them for not promising spending cuts to pay for tax cuts.
Yesterday the shadow chancellor was asked to name a single politician around the world - right wing or left wing - who shared his position. He didn't. Anyone?
* Mervyn King said: "There are two changes which mean that in these circumstances it is reasonable to think about fiscal policy as a complement to monetary policy. One is... credit constraints on households which make fiscal policy likely to be more effective and secondly the fact that the transmission mechanism of monetary policy has been in part impaired through the banking crisis and it's precisely in those circumstances... that fiscal policy has
a role alongside monetary policy. But it still has to be temporary. And it still has to be consistent with a medium-term framework which shows a sustainable path for tax and spending. If not, the benefits can be lost in terms of higher long-term interest rates."
UPDATE: The Tories insist that Mervyn King's comments on a fiscal stimulus should be read as only limited and conditional support for Gordon Brown. They point to these comments by the Chief European Economist at CitiGroup, Michael Saunders who argues that "the governor opened a tentative door to nearterm fiscal stimulus, but hedged that around with ...quite careful conditions."
Saunders goes on "The governor is required to support government policy as long as it does not conflict with the inflation target. But, his comments lay down a marker that only very limited forms of fiscal stimulus would really get his support. It is a clever way of trying to constrain the scale of fiscal easing - and such constraints are important now that the government seems to be returning to a 1970s stance of favouring high budget deficits - without yet being in the awkward position of explicitly opposing the government's fiscal policy."
A view that is, interestingly, backed by the Guardian's economics editor.
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For Tweedledum said Tweedledee had spoiled his nice new rattle...
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If this is the case-I am at a slight loss as to understand why it is deemed necessary for the government and the opposition for that matter, to do anything at all to stimulate the economy.
If Mr Brown is to sustain credibility, he will want to avoid medium term stop/go and clearly if there is to be any stop--then this will be achieved by the bank then putting interest rates back up again!
But of course!!-I keep forgetting that an election must happen before spring 2010.
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on PMQs Brown is now blah, blah-ring about the usefulness of the Post Office. This after this government have been systematically destroying and demolishing a fine old British institute. He also is blabbering about the problems people have with their credit cards. Simple, same solution as what we need to deal with Brown - get rid of them!
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Nick
When are you going to follow up on mandleson now that he is admitting to disucssing tariffs with oleg?
I am starting to think that you are trying to ignore it...
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Nick
Even Andrew Neil thinks you are too cynical about the tories.
You are right that people won't like what you said -- because you always see the worst in the tories, and the best in labour.
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Just a couple of points :
Why do you think that Mervyn King would do anything other than back his boss Gordon ?
Whatever David Cameron says now will be lost in the midst of time when the next election comes around. It will be the deeds that are actually performed by the current government that will be judged. Basically not good news for Gordon then !
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I've already commented on the horror of the Baby P case on the previous forum. On PMQs it was raised, and we all saw the coldness of Brown's reactions. This goes beyond politics. I wonder why the bodies who are always so concerned about human rights for terrorists, foreign born murderers and criminals, who cannot be sent home because they would be in danger, don't concern themselves with British children being tortured in their own homes. Should Amnesty International be contacted?
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Nick
You have misinterpreted Merv and put your own spin on his wording.
The problem here isnt for the Torys but for Brown and Darling
Merv says it must be short term and paid back in the medium term.
Brown and Darling have said they dont know when they will pay it back and that the borrowing must go on "as long as it takes"
Please Nick blog factually as all your responders here from both sides try to.
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BBC political editor Nick Robinson says it was an "extraordinary" PMQs and that people had expected much more debate on the economy. Mr Brown showed a "political tone-deafness" to the mood outside Westminster, he tells Daily Politics.
My goodness is Nick finally getting it.
Sadly no
Nick Robinson asks whether Mr Cameron thought he could not "believe my political luck" with the debate veering away from the economy towards the Baby P issue.
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Quick,
Hide the fact that Brown has totally misread the public sentiment of the terrible abuse of a little baby.
And made some very nasty suppositions of the Leader of the Opposition.
Nick, despite widespread theft of Tory policies by Labour; the Tories aren't in power.
Fiscal stimulus by borrowing large amounts of money means one thing and one thing only.
Higher taxes later.
End. Of.
No amount of spinning, no amount of semantic mangling alters that fact.
Reading the Inflation report overview, the government's entire handling of the economy has been deeply suspect since 2005 in allowing the house price bubble to continue unchecked.
The poor banking regulatory system set up by Brown in 1997 only made matter worse.
Finally, having a background in Economics, there is nothing in that quote supplied above that recommends borrowing money to finance tax cuts.
Fiscal stimulus can also be created by reducing how much the dead hand of the State spends and giving it to the far more dynamic and value seeking public at large and private sector.
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Herbert Hoover.
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I am not too interested in any of the mainstream political parties but it does seem to me that the Tories have lapsed back into a'hapless have'nt-a-clue mode.
Probably the best thing they could do now is simply be quiet and wait patiently for their turn.
Which will surely come within the next 18 months or so.
For a political independent such as myself, that really is quite a depressing thought.
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1159 Just a few minutes to go now. BBC political editor Nick Robinson says the PM should have a "spring in his step". Gordon Brown has arrived.
Nick you still havent answered why you think this buffoon should have a spring in his step in light of the unemployment and BoE economic assessment let alone the baby P fiasco
Is it because he has a "political tone-deafness"
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Still concerning Baby P, it came to light that the mother was only 17 years old. So now we know why her name was withheld. Isn't it typical that Haringey award a disfunctional teenager social housing, simply because she gave birth? This is in an area, like so many, where it is common practice for teenagers to obtain their own homes by pregnancy. The mother must have been under 16 when she became pregnant, a criminal offence in this country. Why wasn't she taken into care and both she and her baby looked after by responsible agencies? Unfortunately, the reasons are political. Social housing instead of going to young hard-working couples is given to the least deserving. Sink estates administered by officials without any decent ethos, and inevitably causing misery for the very people they are supposed to help.
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Never have I felt so ashamed of a British Prime Minister as I did when watching PMQs today. A total inability to respond to a tragic situation in a human way.
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My reading of his words (as opposed to Nick's rewording) is that he considers it reasonable to consider short term solutions as long as it is affordable in the medium term.
That sounds more like the Tory's suggestions of tax holidays for firms to me.
All three parties are suggesting ways of pumping more money into the economy at the present time - the only difference is that only one of them doesn't seem to have considered the long term downside to this. Unfortunately, that party is the one that is currently in Government.
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'Problem for the Tories' ?
PMQs posed another question Nick.
The Labour Party is led by Gordon Brown who appears to hung up on politics and money. Both important (especially now) but I like to see some humanity in the mix.
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If interest rates cuts take up to 18 months to influence the economy we are all 'doomed' until mid 2010 - then everything will go mad and bubble again. Or is the Bank saying we lied about the year to eighteen months business?
If we are all 'doomed' then party political bickering is nothing by rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. The party leaders should grow up and work for the people who pay them - the country!
Get money into the hands of the poor as they will spend it quickly. If a way is found to do this that does not frighten the horses then this has a chance of mitigating the depression. But above all it has to be done quickly.
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14
Why has this comment been referred to the moderators? Nothing in it is libellous or untrue. It is unpleasant, but so is the case. Please let other bloggers decide if it is wrong to print this.
Still concerning Baby P, it came to light that the mother was only 17 years old. So now we know why her name was withheld. Isn't it typical that Haringey award a disfunctional teenager social housing, simply because she gave birth? This is in an area, like so many, where it is common practice for teenagers to obtain their own homes by pregnancy. The mother must have been under 16 when she became pregnant, a criminal offence in this country. Why wasn't she taken into care and both she and her baby looked after by responsible agencies? Unfortunately, the reasons seem political. Social housing instead of going to young hard-working couples is given to the least deserving. Sink estates administered by officials without any decent ethos, and inevitably causing misery for the very people they are supposed to help.
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I have just seen your dreadful excuses for Brown on thr Daily Politics.
Anyone would think Cruddas was the journalist and you the Labour party member.
Sky know Cameron was going to ask about the economy. He couldn't let that go. What was he to do?
On a day when the unemployment figures are huge, when he said 'I will come to that in a minute' it was clear he intended to and had scope.
Your tack was positvely ingenious Labour spin.
Brown couldn't even look Cameron in the eye at the end.
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Brown's attitude to Baby P beggars belief. I can only hope that when he reflects on his performance today at PMQs he realises how cold and heartless and out of touch he is. He demeaned his Office.
To Brown the only issue is the global economy - with desperate steps to try and portray himself as a world statesman rather than a failed Chancellor and PM.
I really hope he comes back to the House and apologises for his appaling behaviour.
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I'm wondering if the BBC's political commentators and analysts have some form of collective ADHD syndrome? I've just reminded myself of the Tories proposals for dealing with recession in the UK and it is a package of financial measures to be funded by killing off unnecessary public expenditure and redirecting how public money is to be spent.
While it may be reasonable indeed to examine whether this package can be fiscally neutral, the need to examine how realistic the government's own plans to spend, spend, spend its way out of recession is also required.
I see nothing in Mervyn King's words to suggest that it can be only a problem for the Tories without it equally being a problem for the government's own, as yet, unannounced proposals.
Surely there is no room for cynicism from commentators, only careful analysis of what is offered by politicians.
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#14 and #19
I would like to know why these have been referred, because nothing within them is libellous nor untrue.
I stated that an unmarried girl of 17 (her age which we know from PMQs) was awarded social housing instead of being put in care together with her baby. Also, that she was under 16 when she became pregnant. Sad facts, but true.
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There is a certain regular 'contributor' to this blog who repeatedly praises Gordon Brown for his leadership qualities,and how he will lead society out of the global recession.At the same time,he also likes to tell us that 'The British are not good at leadership or society'.
I would like to hear how he can square this circle in the light of the disgraceful and shameful scenes at PMQ's this afternoon,with our own Prime Minister neither showing leadership or empathy for society over the horrors of the Baby P affair.
It is clear that British society is revolted by what has happened,yet Brown thinks that party politics is being played over the subject.
I for one, am even more ashamed of this man than I ever was before.
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Gordon Brown is bending himself backwards to reinvigorate the economy in spite of clear recessionary signals. His has a thankless task and whatever sense he uses is ridiculed out of proportion by the Opposition. Gordon has proven financial skills and unlike his critics will not abandon ship when things get really tough. His critics need to get real and give constructive advice rather than heap scorn on him! Remember Gordon is financially astute and has held the ship together despite the financial tempest!
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It is always possible to go to the loan shark for cash to see you through the very short term.
But it's rarely wise.
Likewise, opening the sluice-gates on spending and tax-cuts - which can only be done at the expense of huge problems in future - is a failure to confront today's problems today.
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I know this is off topic but the Baby P case is a gruesome example of just what a multitude of sins 'bureaucracy' covers.
I believe we English are very bad at bureaucracy and consequently should try to strip it out of our lives as far as we practically can.
In the case of Baby P, Dr. Theodore Dalrymple points out that the bureaucracy is almost entirely mechanistic in its approach.
It would seem that there is very little room for humanity in our Social Services.
Just make sure you fill in the forms correctly.
This is the price that is being paid for our political apathy and cases such as Baby P. will happen again and again until we English truly have a 'revolution' in our heads.
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Today massive unemployment figures are announced so Nick decides to talk about problems for the tories, not unemployment, not mandelson, and not even Gordon throwing our money at whichever part of society he chooses knowing that the poor taxpayer will have to cover it later.
No, he talks about the tories.
Personally, I'm getting sick of paying for this propaganda machine.
Surely the shine must wipe off gordon eventually?
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Thanks for the update, Nick. It looks like what Mervyn King said today and what Tom McNulty said yesterday joins up. It's also interesting that governments see the value of getting onto the same page, and a more sensible view of personal debt management has been folded in. I have no problems with any of that. It sounds like a good package.
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Brown should apologise to the house for his appalling conduct at PMQ's today - it was truly demeaning to his office, to his party and to those who elected the Government.
And - more now than ever - the BBC should address the atrocious and open bias being demonstrated by their reporters, and in particular Robinson and Peston. The conduct of both reporters has been seriously called into question over recent weeks.
When Robinson produced his apologist act for Gordon Brown on the Daily Politics "no doubt people will complain" he was either being deliberately sensationalist (pretty bad taste, don't you think Nick?) or he was acknowledging in public that he was himself displaying the same petty political bias as Brown.
Which is it to be Nick?
I hope we see as many complaints about this appalling and cynical news treatment as we have about other matters of less National importance on the BBC over the past few weeks.
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The best way of giviing me a financial stimulus is to cut Council Tax.
Which could be done by giving the Local Authorities considerably more in this years spending round. Look out for this in the Autumn statement.
Bet they don't do it...
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Mervyn King is appointed by Gordon Brown; why is he going to risk hs neck saying anyhting different to the government?
The only person who has spoken out so far is Eddie George the previous governer who reported that he encouraged to cut interest rates at a time he thought htere was a risk of furhter house price inflation...and he was righ. Who made him cut rates? Gordon Brown.
This is the mistake with Bank of England 'independence' - it has never been independent becasue it merely does the bidding of the government.
The whole situation is a farce and needs shaking up and the tories are completely correct to oppose more government spending and try to cut taxes.
Hard decisions have to be taken and spending more money is not a hard decision it's pouring more petrol onto the fire to fan the flames.
Call an election.
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I never thought I'd see the day when Cruddas is more honest in his appraisal of the PM than the actual journalist that should be doing that.
The only person that knows David Cameron is David Cameron.
It is a weak journalistic line to second guess someone when there is a story there, played out right in front of you only seconds ago.
Gordon Brown got it utterly, utterly wrong.
"A spring in his step." when thousands of jobs are lost.
"A spring in his step." when the BoE says we are facing a vicious recession next year.
And then Gordon Brown refuses to debate how a local authority can let two young children suffer horrific abuse and refuses the massive public call for an independent inquiry.
Gordon Brown demeaned the office of Prime Minister today.
Where were you Nick?
Or yeah, it's a Tory problem.
Please.
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@25
Has anyone else noticed how Pancha only ever arrives after Gordon has gaffed or there is some bad news that needs deflecting
and also how Pancha also manages to pull the reddest of red herrings out of the bag and that what is said is complete unfactual unprovable undefendable hogwash
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Good Time George has lost it. He seems distracted and only seems to have any energy when he's attacking Lord Mandelson. As the economy is the most important item on the agenda it seems important that Osborne is moved out and replaced with a more enegetic politician. Perhaps John Redwood would be able to give the Tories a new direction. The main message is Osborne has failed and Cameron must stop dithering and show some leadership.
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I can see the value of short term fiscal stimulus to tidy us along for now.
But in the longer term the problems that created the economic crisis, and also meant nobody saw it coming, have to be identified and fixed. Regulation, credit risk analysis, central bank policies etc etc.
Otherwise any action fiscal or otherwise will be a shot in the dark.
If it fails then consumer confidence will be slower to return if consumers can see the "great leaders" never had a clue what they were doing and the banks were worse.
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You miss the point totally the Conservatives do not have a problem Labour does, the other countries of the world start from a better debt level than we do that is why they are able to provide proper stimulus to their economies. Your not reporting things properly and this bias will turn round and bite you.
Why on earth would anyone believe anything Melvyn King says hes had everything wrong up to now.
I wish you would investigate Mandelson instead were there is a proper story.
What is more disgusting was your accusation on the Daily Politics that D. Cameron was making political capital out of baby P. Everyone knows that D. Cameron cares passionately about children because of his own disabled child. His compassion towards children is well known. You may notice that the other guests on the show were shocked when you said that even A. Neil who is a seasoned political reporter and a very good one, was shocked. If I were D Cameron I would want an apology from you too. I have never seen D. Cameron so angry or upset this was obviously genuine and you are the only one who couldnt see it, perhaps you have spent too long with G. Brown and have picked up his unfeeling ways.
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As a useful independent commentator on political (and economic) affairs, Nick Robinson is a "busted flush".
His enthusiasm for the Government and all it's works render him ill suited for his post. I have never seen such outrageous bias in a BBC broadcast (The Daily Politics) as I have today. The BBC and Nick Robinson should be ashamed of such a blatant lack of impartiality and should now urgently review whether it is necessary to preface any programme or article in which Nick Robinson features or authors with these words:
"There now follows a party political broadcast on behalf of the Labour party"
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We all know politicians (and those who comment on them) can be deeply cynical. I think today David Cameron was genuinely furious, and disgusted at Gordon's Brown's inability to relate to what he was saying in regard the Baby P case. It does again bring into play Brown's lack of real empathy with the ordinary electorate. I am reminded again that it was him who really thought it was OK to tax the poorest and give it to the better off ; who believed it was fine to offer OAPs a rise of 75p on their pensions; to cut the money to the armed services making our soldiers less safe. He lacks humanity and that's a serious failure in a Prime Minister.
He did not behave properly today and people will have noticed.
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Brown couldn't even look Cameron in the eye at the end.
Brown despises Cameron and everything he represents. To Brown, Cameron represents the top-hatted capitalists of Animal Farm fame. A perpetual world of cream teas and cucumber sandwiches on the patio with Test Match Special in the radio.
He just hates them. And his loathing shows. He doesn't 'get' that much of middle-England, the swing-voters that delivered public-schoolboy Tony Blair three elections in a row, actually aspires to that lifestyle. And, even if they didn't have it themselves, are prepared to move heaven and earth to make sure their kids get a shot at that lifestyle.
Gordon Brown, by contrast, represents the traditional socialist forces of envy. Not for him the soaring middle-class Marx's ideals of opera and fine art for the masses. Hell no, he's pandering to the mind-set that wants everybody to experience the despond of depressed ambition that characterises the traditional Labour heartlands.
Perhaps his rugby accident occurred playing one of the local private schools - Strathallen or Dollar Academy. For sure he was stitched up by that private schoolboy Tony Blair.
Cameron represents everything that a Labour traditionalist like Brown despises. Confidence, charisma, coherence, leadership qualities. He just can't get over the fact that he doesn't have any of these qualities and is resentful of those that do just because, in his twisted mind, 'Just 'cos his parents paid for it. I could have been like that too if my parents had been rich....'
And Brown represents the typical socialist response. Rather than encouraging parents to become rich and offer those opportunities to their own children he seeks to crush the rich and remove the opportunities for the poorer parents to access those opportunities that are available. Hence his parties relentless campaign against grammar schools and their abolition of the assisted places scheme. They want everybody to have an equally crap opportunity of improving their social mobility.
In that respect Cameron is a great Tory asset because with only a slight bit of extra effort he could have Brown spitting incoherent bile at PMQ and show to the world just how close to the edge of reason our PM is. As it is Brown contents himself with spitting incoherent non sequiturs at PMQ.
Like George Bush he (Gordon Brown) is a person I simply have to turn over when he appears on TV. His leering, disingenuous mouthings fill me with the same contempt that I had for the incompetent George Bush.
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Official, the PM's a cold fish.
Having himself experienced the death of a child himself, I was mortified at his response to a reasonable question, even more so that the need for justice to this case to laid open. Doesn't he realise how shocked the nation is with the case of Baby P, his actions will add to the anger that we are feeling.
Regardless of economy, I truly hope that the people of the UK see this odious PM out of office. Clearly I'm a Tory supporter, but I'd happily see the Labour party in power for another 5 years IFF this pathetic excuse for a human being is gone....
Today is a sad day for Britian, more so when you concider in Children in Need week, remind us that our children deserve justice, not only from the abusers, but from those employed to do this.
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Should NuLab be required to pay a significant part of the licence fee given the BBC is fast becoming its mouthpiece on a stick? Nulab was elected with support from 20% of the electorate. BBC should practice political neutrality or promote opposition views to chime with the majority of its listeners. Less bias please..
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Nick, after watching your appalling attempts to act as an apologist for the PM's barely human response to the Baby P case, I really think that you should resign and let Jon Cruddas take over. You got it very badly wrong today.
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Oh Dear, the Tories are losing their nerve, Cameron came across as the poor man's grumpy John McCain in the Commons. How dare anybody accuse this pure and radiant person of playing Party Politics? Well for somebody who promised to end Punch ande Judy politics but couldn't resist it when he was doing well I have no sympathy. If you play the game and lose you on't get a prize. Why not try the principled politician approach next week?
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Putting to one side the fact that Mr King's comments appear to give the government more of a problem than anyone else (they haven't shown any ability to run the budget "consistent with a medium-term framework which shows a sustainable path for tax and spending" since they came to power in 1997), why should we have any regard for the opinions of a man who has consistently misread the signals in the economy?
He has basically admitted today that he got it wrong, but no apology, no explanations and no resignations. Asked directly does he accept that he was wrong, will he apologise, he avoids answering the question. Who does that remind me of?
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Why has the BBC only put on it's website the abbreviated version of PMQS not the full version like it normally does straight away.
Is it something to do with the fact that Labour MPs and Brown where absolutely shameful.
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Mr King's comments effectively amount to
"Our Plan A won't work. We only have one other Plan, which I call Plan B, or do nothing. In the circumstances, I'd try Plan B"
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I've discussed these things in the past and folks weren't interested, so I've moved on from that. If there was less crap and negativity flying around here I might but it's a waste of time at the moment. It kinda proves the point, but there you go.
Looking at things from a strategic position, the best result is that Labour get a clue and the Tories nuke themselves until they're fit to join the show. My view hasn't changed in over a year and I see it's bearing fruit. This, I would argue, is the best position.
It looks like the BBC has clicked what the fanbois and armchair politicians in here are about. That pretty much means 99% of what's said is discounted and, actually, can work against you. Talk is cheap. The only thing that matters is delivery.
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I am sorry but I thought your comments on the Daily Politics were shameful. Brown and you both demonstrated today why neither of you should hold the jobs you do.
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#28
Today massive unemployment figures are announced so Nick decides to talk about problems for the tories, not unemployment, not mandelson, and not even Gordon throwing our money at whichever part of society he chooses knowing that the poor taxpayer will have to cover it later.
Well said. As for this baby P stuff. Well, to a certain extent I'm with Gordon Brown on this. I don't know what Cameron was doing bringing this up at PMQ unless it was simply to blind-side Brown and expose him as the cruel, heartless misanthrope we know him to be.
Even so, as the father of a couple of young children I don't suppose Brown is wholly untouched by the unfortunate circumstances of the child's death but he is genuinely less culpable for this than, for example, destroying the UK economy.
I bet secretly Brown couldn't believe his good fortune that he wasn't about to be kicked up and down the HoP with a tirade of unflattering figures on unemployment, repossessions etc etc that are all a direct consequence of Gordon Browns cack-handed approach to the economy.
Again, I didn't watch because whenever Brown opens his lying mouth I want to stick my boot through the TV, but if his mental reaction to Cameron's question was anything other than 'Eh, what the hell is he going there for?' I'll be surprised.
I suppose at least Cameron didn't give him the excuse to reel off a heap of carefully manufactured numbers which, to an observer unfamiliar with the past decade of maladministration and incompetence, would suggest that the UK economy was at the height of it's powers, at levels not seen since Queen Victoria was Empress of India instead of walking naked through the gates of economic hell.
More accurately, we're not walking naked through the gates of economic Hell, we've souped up a muscle car, we've taken a decade-long run-up and are ram-raiding the gates of economic hell.
All this and what angle does the BBC give us? Mervyn King doesn't quite agree with George Osborne. Who cares what Mervyn King thinks? If he had any integrity he'd have not accepted the job after Eddie George cut interest rates to facilitate Blairs re-election in 2005. It became quite evident to anybody who was prepared to listen that the BoE was no more independent than the ONS or the BBC.
From then on it's just vanity to be associated with such a politically controlled conduit of government policy.
If Mervyn King is telling us we're in recession it's only because Gordon told him he could. If Mervyn King cuts interest rates by 1.5% it's only because Gordon told him to. If Mervyn King makes a statement that could be in any small way interpreted as dissing Tory economic policy then, for sure, Gordon Brown approved it.
And if the BBC puts an anti-Tory spin on some sub-paragraph of Mervyn King's on the day that unemployment reaches the same level it was when this government took over (11 years of power, four months of recession and unemployment is worse than when they took over - some record) then you can be sure it's because that's what they were told to print.
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#25 Pascha
Gordon Brown is bending himself backwards to reinvigorate the economy in spite of clear recessionary signals. His has a thankless task and whatever sense he uses is ridiculed out of proportion by the Opposition. Gordon has proven financial skills and unlike his critics will not abandon ship when things get really tough. His critics need to get real and give constructive advice rather than heap scorn on him! Remember Gordon is financially astute and has held the ship together despite the financial tempest!
Gordon Brown is bending himself backwards because he doesn't want to lose power or face. The recessionary signals were there in 2005. Plenty of economists predicted this but Mr Brown, as our Chancellor, just chose to sit back and rake in the stamp duty from the housing boom. The thankless task to which you refer, was of his own making and nothing he can say or do will convince me that, as the orchestrator of all this mess, he is the only one who can solve the problem. The ship is breaking up on his watch, and he is at the helm.
The only reason he will not abandon the sinking ship is because he does not want to lose face, or power. I have not, and do not see any evidence of his being financially astute - this man will bring this country to it's knees before he loses the geneal election in 2010.
His critics are getting real. There are more and more of us every day.
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Nick,
Rather than focusing again on the Tory proposal (for a responsible approach to tax cuts), should you not be addressing the two riders attached to King's statement that you highlight? If Keynesian policies are adopted, Govt needs to a deliver a clear strategy for paying the money back.
If one were feeling particularly daring, some accountability could be forced for the constant quoting of fake borrowing numbers as a means to justify that we "start from a low base in public debt" (#52, http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2008/11/two_political_g.html#commentsanchor) so have appropriate fiscal flexibility.
If I wanted a nodding dog as head of political affairs at the cbeebies, I'd get a free one from the insurance arm of a now part nationalised bank.
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45:
Those were my initial thoughts exactly when I first heard his comments. The Governor of The Bank Of England hasn't exactly covered himself in glory as far as the economic position of The UK is concerned.
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Brown thinks his status as saviour of the financial world will blind everyone to the problems he helped create. Fine, people can delude themselves as much as they like but frankly when the dust settles, the financial system stabilise then I would hope people might just ask themselves when they put the cross in the box for the UK election 'I wonder if I can trust Gordon Brown?'. My view is that you can't so here is one ex-Labout voter who will be looking for an alternative. And before you say 'its about policies, not individuals' forget it - this will be a personal referendum on Gordon Brown
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#44...
Losing their nerve...
Get this...
A small baby is tortured and there is a litany of systematic failures failing to spot it.
There is an enquiry and recommendations to implement.
The local authority agrees to this.
A small baby is tortured and there is a litany of systematic failures failing to spot it.
In the same local authority.
The inquiry is utterly damning of the local authority.
Why no public inquiry? Why should the PM accuse the Leader of the Opposition of making it a party political point?
Who said that James Bulger's murder was a "A hammer-blow against the sleeping conscience of the country."
Did the government accuse the Leader of the Opposition of making a party political point then?
No.
To do so is a disgraceful thing to say; it shows absolute no emotional empathy that in this 'civilised' country such a thing can happen and that good governance has failed to stop this happening and failed to hold those responsible to account.
The same local authority has failed to learn and another innocent life is lost.
Is that acceptable?
No.
Is it acceptable that the media quietly hush it up that their should be action?
No.
Is it acceptable to spin this and keep it from the news?
No.
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Clearly the newspapers which reported on Peter Knowles (Controller of BBC Parliament and Editor of Parliamentary Programmes ) suggestion to 'go easy on Gordon Brown', have got it wrong, it wasn't a suggestion, it was a BBC wide edict!
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"It looks like the BBC has clicked what the fanbois and armchair politicians in here are about. That pretty much means 99% of what's said is discounted and, actually, can work against you. Talk is cheap. The only thing that matters is delivery."
Too right.
And, if Robinson wasn't either confused or biased, this whole blog article would be about what Labour HAVE delivered:-
- rocketing unemployment
- crippling debt (public and private)
- the worst financial prognosis of the developed world
Mervyn Kings revelations this morning are not a problem for the Tories - at least, not in the same sense as they are for the Government who have got us into this mess and who, for the time being at least, we will have to hope can get us out of it.
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Come now Nick you political chaps are losing the plot.Yesterday the best questions to Brown came from an Aussie ,a Frenchwoman and an Icelandic lady (all women) You asked Osborne what politician agreed with him,I suspect if you read the newspapers there are quite a few economists think it may not work.
The fact is some countries can afford bigger stimulus packages that others.We happen to be near the bottom of the pile and our personal debt puts our consumers near the capitulation point and when this happens.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/31/opinion/31krugman.html
I tried an idea on my Conservative MP and was surprised to find how deep their concern of the public finances is .Remember tax flows reflect historic earnings and the savings reduction will hit tax £1 trillion in personal savings 20% of 2%!
Finally budget deficits, Balance of Trade currency devaluation recession etc I feel we are back in the bad old days .The Nice decade was a once off opportunity decide if it was wasted .
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Charles @ 48
"There is a certain regular 'contributor' to this blog who repeatedly praises Gordon Brown for his leadership qualities,and how he will lead society out of the global recession. At the same time,he also likes to tell us that 'The British are not good at leadership or society'.
I've discussed these things in the past and folks weren't interested, so I've moved on from that. If there was less crap and negativity flying around here I might but it's a waste of time at the moment. It kinda proves the point, but there you go."
Perhaps Charles,instead of quoting only the opening paragraph of my post (which was merely the precursor to the main point),you could address the question I put to you ?
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Following all the comments in here about your performance on The Daily Politics I felt obliged to watch it. Frankly your comments were a disgrace and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Given your supposition that Mr Brown would be in his office after PMQs berating himself for a less than spectacular performance, I trust that you will have the decency to accept that, on reflection, your own comments require an immediate retraction and you will issue an apology to Mr Cameron (a perfectly decent individual even if he is a Tory). Failure to do so will be a straightforward admission that, like Brown, there is no level to which you will not stoop to advance the political agenda of the Labour Party.
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Disgraceful. Gordon Brown and Nick Robinson both.
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I hope we're all learning to spot the tricks.
"Lessons must be learned" is surely one of the most well-worn political platitudes of all time.
Only somebody who is just going-thru-the-motions would utter such a trite comment about a very serious matter.
I think that the 'lesson-to-be-learned' is so unpalletable to the politicians and other public sector workers who spent their whole working lives in the bureaucracy that they cannot imagine a stripped-down bare bones system that actually functioned properly for our society.
How do these people sleep?
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#50 U946....
Gordon had all his answers to DC's questions written down. He is well aware of the questions asked and by whom, well in advance of PMQ's so he can veto any questions he doesn't like the sound of. Blair used to do this too.
I will agree though, that he probably didn't expect DC to keep pushing for an answer about the Director of Haringey Social Services carrying out an investigation which involved members of her own department.
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Ref Baby P
Doesnt that just sum up public sector service.
100 million year is spent by that department and not an ounce of contrition from our PM. I bet hed have a totally different take on it if it was a private company that had allowed these children to die like this.
Christ what a country, what a truly shameful government.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nick -
Your level of "journalism" (if it can be called that) is now beyond farcical, and has become truly pathetic.
Remind me - how do I get a refund of my TV licence? Why should I pay for your obvious pro-Labour propaganda?
The BBC, as an organisation that employs someone such as yourself, is shameful.
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Why has the same man been appointed to enquire all over again following the Baby P case?
And why has the BBC not aired the
doubts over his fitness for this position?
All in all it seems the bbc are trying to keep this one out of the news, while spinning the worst economic news for decades as if it was somehow a disaster for the opposition!!!!
Laughable.
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Why has the same man been appointed to enquire all over again following the Baby P case?
And why has the BBC not aired the
doubts over his fitness for this position?
All in all it seems the bbc are trying to keep this one out of the news, while spinning the worst economic news for decades as if it was somehow a disaster for the opposition!!!!
Laughable.
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Oh dear oh dear the Tories on here are getting their knickers in a twist. All they can see is the next election going down the tubes. The rhetoric of these contributors is getting wilder and more abusive. Why not let the PM get on with running the country because all your bile emanating from yourselves will not alter anything one jot. There will be an election in the next 19 months so wait until then.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Brown: unacceptable conduct at PMQs. If this had been the lead of any public body, pressure would be on them to resign.
Nick: I believe Nick gave a fair and honest assessment, with the possible thinking behind the exchange.
I disagree with him - I don't believe that Cameron had time to work out the political calculations, as he was clearly angry about it. That 'upside' (sorry, for use of that word in this context) was a by-product of geniune anger.
However, I do believe that given the initial backlash, the Tories will NOW use the capital of staying the moral highground to maximum effect.
That is all.
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Who has the power to hire and fire the Governor of the Bank of England?
Gordon Brown or David Cameron?
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Actually, that is not all.
A new line of economic rhetoric was released by Brown today - that of "3m unemployed under the Tories".
Although this has been used in the past, with unemployment rapidly approaching the rates that Labour inherited, the line that "unemployement is lower that when Labour took over" will be dropped.
So expect the 3m quote to become a central labour message to get over to the electorate.
That might be all.
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40. U9461192
Absolutely correct - except for your remarks on George Bush.
Bush, unlike Brown is a human being, even if a flawed one. Aren't we all? The exception is Brown and most of his cabinet. They are machines, directed by an ethos of cold, bureaucracy.
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CEH @ 65
"Some people may remember the Stephen King novel and movie adaptation, The Dark Zone, where a politician held a baby in the way of an assassins bullet. Cameron is the sort of unprincipled bully who would do that and he's been caught in the act."
Even for you ,Charles,that comment has stooped below what is remotely acceptable.
Where's your humanitarian Zen philosophy now?
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"65. At 2:16pm on 12 Nov 2008, Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote something very distasteful"
We all know that you are blindly loyal to your master Brown but that was a disgraceful comment, you might not agree with his policies but David Cameron comes across as someone who genuinely cares about children.
Personally I usually ignore your comments because I personally feel that they rarely add any value to the debate, if that is the level of comments you came out with then I just wish there was the function to ban your comments out right.
So what is your follow up? Are you going to accuse members of the Shadow Cabinet of hate crimes?
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Can anything Merv the swerve says be considered valid now that he and his political masters have allowed the country's economy to go down the proverbial tube ? I'm afraid his credibility as an economist is now in the same pigeonhole as Brown and Darling's. All three of them appear to be out of their depth, constantly referring to the state of the rest of the world as the excuse for the state Britain's economy is in. The present crisis is more to do with their incompetence than the obvious world downturn. Britain's economy boomed for ten years, the benefits of the boom were squandered on social handouts aimed at securing votes and long term power at Westminster, now when the incompetence comes home to roost, it's the rest of the world to blame.
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The PMQ's featured two senior politicians shadow-boxing.
Unfortunately, the public is so jaded and, according to the latest polls, has such little confidence in these politicians, that it is virtually impossible to tell if :
a) Camerons rage is genuine or synthetic
b) Brown's relatively calm dispatch of the political argument masks anguish over the fate of Baby P.
As both of these politicians have suffered tramatic events with their own children, it is a damning indictment of conventional politics that does not permit any shred of 'humanity' to shine through this awful event.
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Mr Bobinson,
Thank you for providing the King quote in full. You'll see, if you read it again, that King says fiscal policy has a role to play in such times. What King does not say is that borrowing to fund a fiscal policy has a role to play in such times.
I appreciate you are a political bobblehead but even you should realise that fiscal policy doesn't have to mean borrowing more money when you find out you are leveraged up to the eyeballs. Cut waste without cutting taxes and re-direct the spare revenue to where it is needed. That would be a revenue neutral fiscal policy and there is ample scope for it.
A good start would be destroying the race baiting Valleys Race Equality Council. Disgraced former Cabinet minister Ron Davies, aka disgraced former Welsh Assembly member Ron Davies is hawking a leaflet around that says it is offensive to refer to people as British.
He couldn't cut it as an MP. He couldn't cut it as an AM. Why am I still paying this man's wages?(Albeit in a roundabout fashion as VALREC is a Local Authority consultant.)
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#65 CEH
Some people may remember the Stephen King novel and movie adaptation, The Dark Zone, where a politician held a baby in the way of an assassins bullet. Cameron is the sort of unprincipled bully who would do that and he's been caught in the act.
The slip during his speech about Thatcherism and this latest burst of mock outrage from Cameron betrays how he thinks and feels. He's a follower and a bully, and people like that rarely lead well. Nobody will say it but his career is finished.
I really can't believe you said that, Charles. Gordon Brown's performance at PMQ's was nothing short of repulsive, and as someone who bangs on about the inner self, I am surprised and shocked to read your post!
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I'm not a Lib Dems, but on the Daily Politics I saw Kennedy, and his compassion showed so sincerely, concerning Baby P. He should be given a position in charge of child welfare, I really believe this man has much to offer away from politics. He has his problems, don't we all, yet I believe he is a far better, caring man than our prime minister.
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Rifleman Yubraj Rai (A 28 year old Gurkha) was killed in Afghanistan on 4th November but it wasn't mentioned in either last week's PMQs or this week's. Have they given up with even offering lip service to dead service personnel?
I understand that their attentions were elsewhere last week as they crawled over each others backs to suck up to the States' new president elect.
A sickening display from our political 'elite'.
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#65
Usually your contributions are just so much drivel and easy to ignore.
That comment is pretty offensive and less easy to ignore. The tragedy of Baby P has become a party political issue because Gordon Brown, and subsequently the BBC, have chosen to make it one, by their highly distasteful decision to question the motives of David Cameron raising a matter of legitimate public concern.
In truth the response is typical of the way in which the government, and its mouthpiece, address any criticism - deflect and avoid. The shameful aspect is that Brown did not distinguish between the day-to-day parliamentary ding-dong, and a matter of enormous public concern wholly unrelated to the political arena.
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Nick
What do you get for repeatedly proving your loyalty to Brown?
It must be clear that your days in your current post are numbered - any ideas on what you will be doing next?
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@44 - billatbasing
"Oh Dear, the Tories are losing their nerve, Cameron came across as the poor man's grumpy John McCain in the Commons. How dare anybody accuse this pure and radiant person of playing Party Politics? Well for somebody who promised to end Punch ande Judy politics but couldn't resist it when he was doing well I have no sympathy. "
Baby P was a human being!
the failures of those that caused suffering are there for all to see, but so to, are the failings of those that "specialise" and are "trained" to spot and deal with extreme cases of this nature.
60 (yes SIXTY) opportunities to do something about this whilst Baby P was alive, not a single one was taken.
it sickens me that anyone could treat another living being like this.
it disgusts me that only 3 written warnings were issued because of the case!
what were the written warnings given for? have the BBC tried to get a copy of them?
wait, they wont be able to as labour have introduced laws that state civil service action (or inaction) in this case cannot be prosecuted!
every file and information document is confidential.
nevermind the tories are losing their nerve.... im losing my nerve when i hear of yet another tragic death that could have been avoided!
my wife cried last night when the news reports came on reporting on this case.
cameron can attack brown over this all he wants, he has my full support!
"If you play the game and lose you won't get a prize. Why not try the principled politician approach next week?"
play the game and lose you wont get a prize?
try "non competitive sports days"
it would appear the labour party you support have different ideas to your own?
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Sorry Nick but you are too generous to Brown and Darling in interpreting Mervyn King's comments.
It seems to me that he has gone out of his way not to be seen to be endorsing any one party's proposals - as is correct in his position. Whilst he has said that increased spending/borrowing may help the position he has added the essential caveat regarding medium term affordability. Bearing this in mind your article could just have easily read 'Trouble for Labour'
This is an area that Labour have avoided answering and given Brown and Darling's history of always borrowing more than they estimated in their Budgets - even in the good times - why are they not being challenged more by you and your colleagues on this?
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Been wondering why the rabid right wingers here (jonthan_cook, etc) who resort to personal abuse of other contributors hate the BBC so much.
I can only assume it is because they want the media controlled by multi-millionaires like Rupert Murdoch and they assume (hope) they will ensure a right wing agenda is followed.
Me - I prefer to pay for a publicly accountable balanced BBC.
Bill McFadden
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Gordon Brown was rumbled long ago. The Tories are being rumbled now. Brown's made a hash of the economy whilst the Tories looked on, hoping to drift into power on the back of Gordon's disastrous performance.
Now that the political scene is white hot, the Tories are demonstrating that, rather like the other lot, they also haven't the faintest idea how to deal with this crisis.
Just wait until our society encounters the full effects of the end of the era of cheap energy, coupled meantime with the impact of our total lack of energy security (ie the lights going out), and we'll see just how appallingly badly we are being governed these days.
Our political class is failing us.
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#65..
What a vile thing to say.
Today has taught me one thing, the Left will say anything to keep their grubby hands on the levers of power.
Aided and abetted by sections of the "narrative-seeking" media.
For "narrative-seeking" read: "Please tell me what to write".
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#76 commenting on #65, Hardwidges comment on Cameron holding a baby in front of a bullet.
I'm reminded that Hardwidge also commented on another person being Cameron's prison bitch. I remember this quite clearly since I complained about it at the time.
I'm afraid people become all consumed by this blogging process and spout all manner of obscenities.
At some point the moderators will probably get around to removing the ability of such people to continue to spout such personal abuse by banning their IP address or whatever.
Either that, or wait until the papers get hold of it. I guess that someone will then have to resign.
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Nick Robinson is now beyond any pretence of political balance.
It is futile to complain to his masters at the BBC. We must wait for the dismemberment of the institution by the incoming Conservative government, and expect the regulation of the publicly-funded rump that remains by Ofcom.
I never remotely thought that I would welcome the break-up of this once-loved institution. But its behaviour in recent times has made a break-up inevitable.
Well done Robinson, Peston, Montague, Quinn, Mason et al.
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Nick, this is another silly headline. Aren’t you being naïve in not expecting the governor of the BoE to agree with the government. Imagine the repercussions in an economic crisis like the one we are in today if the PM and the Governor were thought to be a loggerheads. If he has reservations they should be expressed privately.
Even then his comments were measured. Regarding a fiscal stimulus he said:
“But it still has to be temporary. And it still has to be consistent with a medium-term framework which shows a sustainable path for tax and spending. If not, the benefits can be lost in terms of higher long-term interest rates."
I would be interested in his opinion as to whether there existed a medium-term framework which shows a sustainable path for tax and spending. At the moment we seem to have a structural deficit which is not being addressed. You could equally well have said the governor was making a veiled attack on Brown for a lack of a medium term strategy.
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#89.
Actually I would wager that actually the media (one organisation especially) and the public at large aren't ready for the medicine required.
Less spending on the public sector, lower personal and indirect taxes.
It is possible to grow tax revenues by lowering taxes and growing the economy.
There will also be a huge borrowing deficit to pay back.
You see, the tired mantra is "Cuts in schools and hospitals" is immediately rattled out.
There are plenty of very good ideas on how to reduce the welfare bill and how to make education and health budgets go further without negatively impacted services.
It's just we have a media that is heavy on the opinion, light on the facts.
However, 'Cuts to schools and hospitals' sticks.. a bit like the accusation of 'racism' used when the Opposition challenged the Government's immigration policy.
There are good and bad politicians but I would say as a public - we get the government we deserve.
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"Reasonable" does not mean right or the best option. It merely means that there are reasons to argue on balance for this course of action; and does not preclude the possibility that other options might not be equally reasonable- if not more.
You would hardly expect MK to say anything else. The Government have the right and duty to take the lead in terms of State finance, and MK- like the Civil Service- is obliged to try to make Government Policy work in the overall interest.
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If anyone had any doubts about Gordon Brown, today should have cemented them forever.
I refer to his lamentable response to the questions posed by David Cameron about 'Baby P'.
Brown has become no more than an script and autocue reader. He is fine when notes are written for him, and sticks to the script on the dispatch box.
Ask him a question 'off field' and he hasn't a clue. His attitude today was an utter disgrace and if this is a man with compassion, he does a brilliant job of hiding it.
A truly shameful response to one of the most serious matters he will ever be confronted with.
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65. Charles_E_Hardwidge
I did not see this comment, and in fact despise the writings of this person. But I defend free speech, even to that of Holocaust deniers. I believe that this comment should have remained, so we could all see what a distorted sense of morality this writer has.
He has many times referred me to moderators, as he has others, but I say NO. Let there be free speech. By his writings the man will be judged. Give him enough rope and he will hang himself.
Wonder how long it will be before he tries to have this referred!
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Hi Nick
It's with regret that I have to add my voice to those who consider your comments today on The Daily Politics to be unacceptable - both with regards to the cynicism expressed and the impression of bias they gave.
It's not good enough, but you were expecting comments like this weren't you?
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Well, I've just had a very nice email suggesting ways I could protect my estate from inheritance tax.
Right now I suspect other people are taking care of that far more effectively than anything much that I can do.
Nice of them to think about it though.
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U @ 40
Cameron represents everything that a Labour traditionalist like Brown despises. Confidence, charisma, coherence, leadership qualities
That's comedy gold.
Are U setting us all up for one of the subtlest spoofs on record?
U playing the long game a la SAG as George Smiley?
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The problem for us bloggers is that our credibility, such as it is, amongst our fellow bloggers is predicated upon a consistent and honest approach.
And it is very hard to be consistent.
We must not make mistakes.
I already have made one on this forum and had to apologise for offering misleading information (on mortgages) and bloggers will have mentally noted that.
Say I make another mistake and have to apologise again.
It will be noted again ... and then if I am unfortunate enough to make a third mistake ... well, that is the end of my blogging 'career'.
I suspect the same is true of our politicians, so we rarely, if ever, hear them apologise for anything.
The stakes are simply too high.
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"No, what the economy needs now is something to take the place of retrenching consumers. That means a major fiscal stimulus. And this time the stimulus should take the form of actual government spending rather than rebate checks that consumers probably wouldn’t spend."
The words of Paul Krugman who has the advantage of having seen one tax rebate fail in the US .So I don't think GB is in tune any longer and as for this world summit try http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,589952,00.html
Looking at the uk only press gives the wrong impression . Don't all fall for the global hero bit,
most out there know that the belgians quietly did the bank rescue bit involving a cross border bailout at the end of September!
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MR Robinson,do you read your own blog,if so, answer the question,Why do you give pro labour and brown news reports[even when it's bad news for labour] and lately you have been giving anti tory news[looking for the bad side ,even when the tories or cameron have a good day].Today on the daily politics ,after PM's questons,your answer to cameron on playing politics on the baby p was a disgrace ,inwhich you sounded to be backing brown.The question should have been on Brown on bringing in politics on a serious question .Come on Nick ,answer the majority of blogs that think you are anti tory.
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#89
I'm afraid there aren't any easy answers now that we are in the current mess which does of course have global causes but is compounded by this Government's spending spree of the past decade.
The cupboard is bare so it would be disingenuous of the Conservatives to claim a miracle cure. Both the Tories and LibDems agree that Labour's borrow now, pay back probably at some point but we don't know how strategy is just pie in the sky but differ on what kind of alternative tax cutting scheme can be afforded.
I do agree with your statement that the current Governement has been ignoring our energy needs for too long and we will feel the consequences for many years to come.
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Nick, this blog is really tiresome and when are you going to get off the fence and stop all this pro Labour rubbish.
We now hear nothing at all about all the problems Labour has created from wasted taxes, lost discs, overspending, bribes, 10p tax and so on.
Who is driving you, I suspect those two sacked men who are now back in Downing Street.
Come on Nick spend less time pushing the Labour agenda and more time pushing the real story of how bad labour has been.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Don't follow the main thrust of Nick's piece in this particular case ... I mean, why on earth should we (or anybody bar his immediate friends and family) give a flying about what Mervyn King has to say regarding the economy? Not as if he's an expert or anything, is it? Au contraire - empty suit, just like all the others.
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What is interesting to me about CEH comment 65 is not how repulsive it was - after all we have been here before. Instead it is the fact the it was allowed on the board at all.
Indeed, it is now showing as having been removed because it broke the house rules. Surely it broke the rules when it was written, so why was it allowed. Did the moderators allow it because it was dear old loyal Charles, or did they simply not bother reading it?
One other thing - Charles keeps saying that he and GB have similar personality types. On today's evidence I would find it hard to disagree.
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Why is something that Mervyn King said a "problem for the tories", just because he happened to agree with what the government are planning? How about all the times he hasn't agreed with them, such as the years of borrowing and debt that got us into this position in the first place?
Nick; I understand that in the interest of impartiality you should be asking difficult questions of both parties, but this is getting ridiculous. You're like someone who rushes to the aid of someone in the street receiving a kicking; even though deep inside you know they really deserve it.
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U @ 50
I don't suppose Brown is wholly untouched by the unfortunate circumstances of the child's death but he is genuinely less culpable for this than, for example, destroying the UK economy.
That's very big of U!
So what percentage is he to blame for the child's death?... just approximately, I mean.
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Oh, I see...
Browns master plan for the day was supposed to be:-
1) Mervyn announces backs borrow and spend
2) Nick bloggs in support
3) Brown responds to all PMQ's 'with Bank of England back us; not tories'
4) Darling announces date of pre-budget review
However, as Brown doesn't have a creative/imagnitive bone in his body - so when PMQ's is not about the economy he just flounders.
Merv, Nick and Darling do their bit, Brown flunks his -- Cambell will be dis-pleased...
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How reassuring to see Gordon Brown back to his worst in PMQs today. A few weeks of "fame" over the financial problems and he feels he is invincible again. What a mistake.
Cameron was quite right and only said what everyone knows is correct - that the boss whose team has made a huge mistake shouldn't be the one to investigate it. And Brown, defensive as ever, had to try to make it a party political point himself.
The death of this poor child is far more important than party politics. Harringey Council is has made anothert huge mistake. And no-one is taking the blame - again. This is far worse than the Brand and Ross debacle, and heads rolled there. So they should in Harringey.
And what does Nick do in this blog - try to put pressure on the Conservatives - such lack of moral commentating.
In the end, what the general public will be interested in is the death of Baby P and not the ins and outs of Brown and cameron economics.
Yet again Brown and Robinson have blown it.
But in Nick's case, I think he thought he knew what was coming, and an attempt to help Brown, and wrote his piece well in advance of events.
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Me - I prefer to pay for a publicly accountable balanced BBC.
Bill McFadden
I would prefer to pay for a publicly accountable balanced BBC - how would we go about getting one though?
The BBC I see doesn't seem to be publicly accountable - it is accountable but not to the public as a whole.
And as for balanced some of the recent blogs could have been written by Labour HQ.
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Like many other bloggers I am totally disenchanted with the bias toward NuLab,against Tory that BBC have.
The BBC reporting of politics and current affair by definition has to be balanced because they are reporting to their shareholder-the taxpayer.
The obvious and continuous bias shown by Nick Robinson and Andrew Marr,who is just as bad, should cease immediately as they infact under-mine the purpose of the BBC totally.
If they and the editors can't help themselves and continue to perform as they are then we need to see some demotions to put people in the limelight who are able to report in an un-biased way
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Mr. Robinson,
I endorse some of the comments made above to the effect that you are now so accommodating to the Labour party that it is difficult to see how you can maintain a position with the (supposedly) apolitical and independent BBC.
How you can look at events of the last few days and the Gordon Brown performance at PMQs today and conclude that these add up to a problem for the Tories beggars belief.
The problems are:
1. Gordon has left the country in such a state that is singularly ill-equipped to deal with a world recession. He can blame the rest of the world for the recession but he can't blame anyone else for the fact that the UK was broke when the recession hit.
2. Gordon's solution to the fine mess he's got is into is to give tax cuts (funded by further borrowing) to encourage spending, at a time when the rest of us have realised what prudence actually is and are starting to tighten our belts.
3. Gordon's performance today at PMQ's was shocking and showed just how out-of-touch he is, not just with the electorate but with humanity as a whole. David Cameron (and I am not a Tory by the way) was (in my view) just highlighting the sickening scandal whereby a local authority that messes up on a huge scale, allowing the murders of two small children, was to be allowed to conduct its own internal review.
I saw nothing political in Cameron asking for an urgent independent inquiry, which is clearly the right step. Only Gordon saw this as a political gambit, completely missing the fact that a child was dead because someone had messed up badly and needed to be brought to book fast.
We need an election and we need it now. And Mr. Robinson, you need a new job more suited to your talents and political leanings. How about GB's campaign manager when he is forced to the polls?
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i suggest that you manic right wing bloggers stick to watching Fox News. Look what it did for the Republicans. They had lots of people admitting they were mad at McCain rallies,
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this is so so amusing to read all these tori tofs comments below... i wonder if some of you actually get funding to put your spin comments on here... Nick is making a valid point here and I know it is very hard for tories to see the polls finally changing as the tory leadership is exposed as shallow and nothing to offer this country!
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Is Nick Robinson a Labour "plant" in the BBC? - everyone seems to think so.
Personally I think Nick is just out of touch with the general public. He believes he is a celebrity and tries to court favour.
I believe that his good pro-Labour commentary helps with this celebrity aspect giving him access to inside info that puts him ahead of the competition.
Not bias, just misguided.
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#106 CEH
It's interesting that the usual Tories who make lurid comments and bang on about censorship have taken down my earlier comment on Cameron looking like the presidential candidate in Stephen King's Dark Zone. It must've stung a bit.
The synthetic outrage of Cameron is something he does well and, I disagree with Nick here. His giving up further questions isn't genuine grief, just a salesman's closing tactic. It's a trick to seal a deal before it unravels.
But, this is Cameron all over: stoke the rage and distract people. He saw an opportunity to seize the agenda and went for it. Rah-rah-rah. Charles Kennedy's smug and self-righteous attitude isn't much better. Both of them should be ashamed of themselves.
To say that David Cameron "stoked the rage" is abhorrent, even for you, Charles. David Cameron has a disabled child of his own and he well understands the problems that it brings. I think you should crawl back into the gutter with the Labour Party front bench.
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Didn't see the now infamous 65 comment by CEH before it was removed. Can someone please give me a careful precis of what he said. He does sometimes have a rush of blood and comes out with abusive statements that are totally out of character. On the point in question even Jon Crudass had to admit that the P.M. had made a terrible mistake trying to reduce this issue to one of party politics. He was probably rattled as NR said that the didn't have the chance to gloat over The President of The Bank of Englands morning statement which appeared to support his economic policy.
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Nick - you do seem generally biased and maybe thats just to promote debate , but today you really have made deeply unpleasant remarks that I find extremely offensive.
You really should apologise to David Cameron over this. Its as bad as Ross and that other twerp.
We could all see there were no lights on in gordons head when he was asked about baby P. Why would there be as it gave him no platform to tell everyone how clever he is ?
But somehow you have focused on problems for tories. You must be as stupid as Gordon if you dont see how this childs death has touched people.
You really should feel ashamed of yourself today. Like many others , I will be complaining to the BBC. You are totally out of order.
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The lurid comments, attitude, lack of apology, refusing to accept some truth in something, and lack of consensus is all the product of an ultra-competitive environment.
There's an interesting comment in The Times which highlights the contrasting approaches of Martin Luther King and Malcom X. It's well worth reading.
I've commented that the Anglo-Saxon model is blown. This article helps flesh out how the counter-intuitive Daoist type model offers some solution to that: reverse gear is just forwards by another name.
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I for one don't take anything the Mervyn King says as definitive. The Bank of England has made plenty of mistakes under his watch. Just because he supports Brown stance doesn't mean he is correct.
Just as most experts have got is wrong, so King has a 50:50 chance of being right, or wrong.
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If I understand correctly, Labour want to borrow even more money to add to the deficit, in order to give tax cuts. The Tories would prefer to cut current levels of spending on public services in order to cut taxes in a funded way. Well as a young person that will already be burdened with higher taxes to pay for the ageing generation, I think it would be terrible to saddle younger generations with even more debt. I find it bizarre that Nick thinks that this is a problem for the Tories, when Labour haven't even made any commitments yet. The Tories have put forward tax cuts for businesses because it is businesses that create wealth and will ultimately rescue the economy. Has everyone forgot the last 10 years where Labour always moaned that Tory tax cuts were unfunded?
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Nick
I can hardly express my disgust towards Gordon Brown for his insensitive response to David Cameron's justified probing into the tragic circumstances leading up to the death of Baby 'P'. This man is totally out of touch with reality. It was obvious he had no desire to talk about this matter and was totally out of his depth. He simply replied to David Cameron with a series of platitudes.
Just as outrageous was your response that insinuated David Cameron was playing politics with the child's death. How can you twist it in this way? David Cameron was absolutely justified in asking those questions and Gordon Brown did not deliver any concrete assurances.
It will be interesting to see how this is reported by the BBC and the media. I watched PMQ's in full and this is how I saw it. Gordon Brown has gone down even further in my estimation.
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#106 CEH.
It is not my viewpoint to moderate ANY postings* - often those posts that are silenced are those that are most revealing about the person who posted them.
Sometimes, it's not rabid-right wingers that censor your posts. Sometimes, I suggest, it is because the mark has been overstepped.
Today, Charles, you let yourself down badly with a very poor comment on the Leader of the Opposition. You can stand by those comments or you can retract them, recognising their folly in the 'heat of the moment'. Either way we will all learn a lot about YOUR character and principles.
I hope you make the right choice.
That is all.
*including yours today
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85. the-real-truth
Nick must be after a safe seat at the next election, it can be the only explanation.
Its such a laugh. Mervyn King causing a problem for the Tories... What a hoot. Puts the term Nu Labour spin into a totally new context. Nick needs to get out of Westminster more.
Oh yes and very NICE post at 65 Chuck. You are a Brown man to the core. Just superb. So full of Zen peace and harmony. LOL.
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Just seen a re-run of PMQ's. Camerons snide comment about a 17 year old father that cannot read. Does this mean all young people that cannot read or are of low IQ should not be allowed to have children. Is this going to become Tory Party policy? I think questions should be asked as this has far reaching ramifications.
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28 sweetAnybody
I agree completely about the BBC.
I have always supported the licence fee but am becoming increasingly worried about the lack of balance in the political and business reporting by the likes of Robinson and Peston who prefer to make or perhaps more correctly STEER the news rather than reporting on it.
Perhaps both could take "gardening leave" for the next, say, 18 months.
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#116 & 117.
Nice to see intelligent debate from Gordon's fan club.
Long may it continue.
Incidentally #116, suggesting that the right-wing should go somewhere else...
...isn't that a tacit admission that the BBC is only concerned with the left-wing side of the argument?
Thanks.
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#117.
There's no need to be totally ignorant.
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106. At 3:51pm on 12 Nov 2008, Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
It's interesting that the usual Tories who make lurid comments and bang on about censorship have taken down my earlier comment on Cameron looking like the presidential candidate in Stephen King's Dark Zone. It must've stung a bit.
Tell you what, if you really believe that then I challenge you to prove it - it would be a win win situation for you, you would bring down David Cameron and virtually ensure that your lord and master Brown wins another term.
I am willing to lay good money that you can't prove your twisted accusations, and as such your comments will just be put down (as usual) to the confused mumblings of a disturbed man.
You might think you are fighting the good fight, but I expect that the skinhead thugs of the NF think they are as well.
I doubt it is just the tories on this site who found your comments distasteful I would hope that most people would as well.
But, this is Cameron all over: stoke the rage and distract people. He saw an opportunity to seize the agenda and went for it. Rah-rah-rah. Charles Kennedy's smug and self-righteous attitude isn't much better. Both of them should be ashamed of themselves.
He raised a valid (and topical) point - isn't that what PMQs is supposed to be about? I admit that recently it has just been an excuse for Labour to feed Brown soft questions and Brown to mindlessly repeat the New Labour policies like they are mantras.
Brown came across as cold, heartless and out of touch - still there will be Labour party members who will vote for him regardless.
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Just seen an item on Sky news reporting that the USA treasury has endorsed everything Gordon Brown has done here and are going to do the same. sort of shoots the fox of most bloggers here.
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sicilian29 wrote:
Didn't see the now infamous 65 comment by CEH before it was removed. Can someone please give me a careful precis of what he said. He does sometimes have a rush of blood and comes out with abusive statements that are totally out of character.
It has been quoted by others in this blog, search for Stephen King and you should find it.
I don't think that abusive comments are out of character for CEH, he does seem to come out with a lot of them. However, what does seem out of character from him is his coherent comments!
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Ref Extreme Hoggwash at 106
But, this is Cameron all over: stoke the rage and distract people. He saw an opportunity to seize the agenda and went for it. Rah-rah-rah. Charles Kennedy's smug and self-righteous attitude isn't much better. Both of them should be ashamed of themselves.
So no shame apportioned to the men actually responsible then, just shame for those who point out that this whole Haringey outrage is bloody outrageous.
All hail the android emperor.
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1222;
For someone who professes not to be particularly pro Brown and of an independent mind the phrase: 'You could have fooled me' comes to mind. Didn't see your first comment on The Commons exchange but the second was nasty.
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133:
Unfortunately your supposedly good news has been buried by the latest gaffe. It once again brings into question the judgement of the man.
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Everyone seems to be missing the point.
Brown didn't say that Cameron bringing up failures in social services was a bad thing.
If you read Hansard's transcript of PMQs you will see what provoked the PM to accuse Cameron of making political capital out of the tragic death of Baby B
Mr. Cameron: Let us be honest: this is a story about a 17-year-old girl who had no idea how to bring up a child. It is about a boyfriend who could not read but who could beat a child, and it is about a social services department that gets £100 million a year and cannot look after children. That is what this is about.
In the case of failing schools, we take them over. In this department in Haringey, one in four positions for social workers is completely vacant. It does nothing to help struggling local schools that are failing, and another child has been beaten to death. I do not expect an answer now, because we never get one, but will the Prime Minister at least consider whether the time has come to take over this failing department and put someone in charge who can run it properly for our children?
Notice the connection between the accusation that Government educational policy is failing and the death of the child.
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#133 wumper
Just seen an item on Sky news reporting that the USA treasury has endorsed everything Gordon Brown has done here and are going to do the same. sort of shoots the fox of most bloggers here.
It's common knowledge that the economy in the US is almost as bad as ours. If they listen to Gordon, they won't fare any better then us then. The difference between the Brits and the Americans, is that they will shout about anything they disagree with - and loudly.
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oh yes only the super heroes in the government can bring about the recovery and look good doing it.
but who are we mere mortals to be critical of when watching these parlimentary groups all you see is there own greed and averice.
no one in westminster is there to benefit the public they are there to line there own pockets and become celeb's in the process.
well the majority voted these people in and they should blame themselves for what happens, we can always force a vote and remove them but will we get worse i just dont know.
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I'm truly baffled by Mervyn King's change of mind at the moment.
He seems to be going along with everything The Treasury says.
I fail to see how inflation will come down while the pound is continuing to depreciate. After all most of what we buy is imported . This will only get more expensive including gas and oil which are priced in dollars.
Perhaps they are going to calculate inflation in a different way. They seem to be able to fiddle every other figure
They must be going to include nil interest for savers in the figures. That will certainly bring it right down.
Exports will be cheaper they say. That's all very well if there were enough of them and someone to sell them to who can afford to buy them.
This is only the beginning of a mess which will continue to get bigger and bigger.
Certainly from what I've seen so far of Brown's ideas.
No credible plans. Just more and more mad ideas all going in the wrong direction.
The mess gets bigger and bigger.
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"This morning Mervyn King backed the idea of a fiscal stimulus".
And who helped Gorden get us into this mess?
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For the Government to increase borrowing it need to have a lender. With sterling now down below $1.50 and €1.20 it could well be that interest rates will have to rise.
All we need now is a real run on Sterling and all bets will be off on the Governors predictions.
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128:
Trying to change the subject like this is a mark of desperation. Your man made a mistake. Admit it!!
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#128
Well done, full marks. Have a gold star.
You and CEH really have managed to take this debate to a whole new level.
Alistair and Peter must be very proud of you.
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How about a blog on Problems for Brown?
Unemployment up, he never ever answers a straight question, and completely out of touch with people.
Cameron today showed that whether he had a priveliged upbringing or not he is still far more in touch with the people of this country than Brown ever will be however much spin Alistair Campbell will give him. Cameron has passion in what he says. Brown may feel comfortable talking about money but he doesn't about people.
That is why Cameron will win the next election. Once the economy is no longer the talking point, it will be a Conservative landslide.
The reason is that, on any issue - from social issues, to the environment, to immigration, to Europe, Cameron beats Brown hands down.
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Nick has now given this issue a thread all of its own. Too late now to retrieve the credibilty of a couple of bloggers on here who along with The Prime Minister have thoroughly disgraced themselves today. Not a hint of an apology or any sign of remorse from any of them!
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I also watched PMQ's and couldn't believe what I was hearing from Brown.
His inability to answer a serious non-political issue raised by Cameron and then accuse Cameron of party politics was shameful.
Any you, Nick Robinson, should hang you head in shame for not only trying to defend Brown but to implicate/blame Cameron for the incident.
John Cruddas though came out of this extremely well. His comments earned my respect.
The BBC lost its impartiality many years ago. I too now hope the license fee goes. Perhaps NuLab have threatened to withdraw funding unless the BBC seem more sympathetic to their cause. There has to be some explanation for this blatant bias which is now a daily occurrence.
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I have to agree with other bloggers here. How on earth does this equate to some kind of triumph for Gordon Brown?has Mervyn King not been one of the three who managed to get us into this situation? We are losing all credibility abroad-IMF report, EU report etc we are one of the weakest of the developed economies going into recession. The pound is floundering badly. IN what way should the PM have a spring in his step?I am honestly struggling. Are you all on something?
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From this week's Private Eye:
-42 percent: Drop in Labour vote at Glasgow East by-election, which was apparently Gordon Brown's worst moment in June
-37 percent: Drop in Labour vote at Glenrothes by-election, which was apparently Gordon Brown's finest moment last week
Says it all really. We don't want you or your lies, Labour... call an election NOW.
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Gordon Brown identified problems with the financial system and offered solutions but nobody listened until it went wrong. The issue today is no different. People believe they're perfect and won't give way, yet, when the situation explodes they're full of grandstanding and offers of help.
The basic problem Britain has is people have closed minds and lack empathy. The anti-intellectualism and turf wars create mediocrity, waste money, and kill people, again, and again, and again. Parliament and organisations have some responsibility but this is, also, a collective issue.
People demand answers and stroking but to what end? Cameron made a play and people are hugging their comfort zone but genuine purpose and empathy something else. If people genuinely want better and are willing to pay the price, a less bloated ego might give way to better outcomes.
People are making this out to be unique and terrible, but things like this happen all the time. The consequence may not be so big or obvious but it's no different in nature. This is where the instant and linear approach keeps failing, and why continuous but more patient polishing can help.
Do better... Move on. Do better... etcetera.
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Cameron's difficulty is that he set himself up as `the heir to Blair'.
Blair has gone and so has the rarified air of waffle, pose and bogus action that constituted politics during the Blair period. In those days nobody had to actually deliver any policy they needed only to walk around like matinee idols pretending to be busy.
It is not just Cameron who has this problem: so does the SNP and dear Cleggie.
On top of this the Tory shadow Chancellor is as close to Harry Enfield's Tory Boy as is possible. He likes to think he is very capable but he carries no authority whatsover.
Now Brown knows this and is using this to his advantage. Furthermore Brown knows that in times of difficulty voters will tend to opt for the devil they know. So he is playing that hand as hard as possible. It will fool many.
What is needed now are politicians with an air of competence and authority and not the bunch of chancers, opportunists and poseurs we have today. We need women and men with the harsh experience of tough conditions, who can think on their feet and lead the country through the bad times.
Such people are there in Parliament and around the country which is why I think we have to consider the option of a National Government to get us through the coming slump, rebuild our country into a place that works and set the place up for a brighter and better future without all this sad whaffle and petty nonsense.
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Brown's behaviour didn't surprise me. At heart he is only interested in himself. End of.
Brown can't be compassionate about others, because he isn't interested in others.
It was a perfectly reasonable question for Cameron to ask and Brown dealt with it in his normal vile manner.
I see from the BBC web-site that Cameron's question is seen as barking up the wrong tree because Ms Shoesmith didn't direct the report, only commission it.
However, from today's Evening Standard:
"2pm UPDATE: I've looked into this further and it seems that although Cameron didn't express himself as well as he should, he may be onto something about conflicts of interest.
It turns out that the "Serious Case Review Sub-Committee" of the Local Safeguarding Board was involved in the drafting of the report, as well as setting out the remit. Ms Shoesmith chairs the Local Safeguarding Board."
There may be an issue here-
It seems to me that it was perfectly reasonable for Cameron to have asked the questions he did.
As for Nick Robinson................... well........
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balhamu wrote:
Everyone seems to be missing the point.
Notice the connection between the accusation that Government educational policy is failing and the death of the child.
I guess that you refer to the comment that the boyfriend could not read - if so you are really stretching a connection.
Looking through the transcript it seems that the main problem is that the local social services were over stretched - which is not a failing of the Government educational policy.
And a 17/18 year old should have learnt to read under a Conservative government (reading is typically taught in the first years of school at age 4-6).
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Nick,
Reading the Governor's comments, which you quote at the end of the piece, these are only a potential problem for the Tories. If the Government were actually going to follow what the Governor says fully, then it could be a difficult issue for Cameron and Co. The problem for the Government is they haven't said, yet, how they will deal with the medium term, probably because they haven't yet thought about it. It probably means either much higher taxes or less expenditure or both and that would require a degree of honesty which has hitherto been somewhat lacking as it affects the state sector . After all this is a Government that is hoping nobody will notice their not inconsiderable contribution to our current difficulties through the debt mountain, it is all the fault of American sub-prime loans, after all.
This is therefore a possible problem for both, but more so for the Government unless they enlighten us about the medium term plan, assuming it exists. A pity you went for an easy headline, rather than thinking carefully about it, as you could so easily have avoided the charges of bias. As it is, I am afraid you appear to have fallen this time into the "client media" category, just churning out spin favourable to the Government.
As for the Daily Politics comment, the less said the better. You fell from your usual high standard, in my opinion.
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This is exacty the point people are missing. They're so quick to rush and take sides it crowded reality out of their minds. This is why listening to what is said and not being so caught up in the projected emotionalism is important.
Cameron made a strong and emotive play. He's good at it. So good that he's able to fool people but not so good enough that it fools everyone. As surely as his speech betrayed a Thatcherite 'tell', so his PMQ betrays a manipulative streak.
Matters of substance and genuine concern to people are never an issue. They are to be dealt with in a timely and proper way. But when Cameron games people like the aspiring exec in Robocop, he shows he's not up to playing with big boys toys.
(Whoops. Another post got mown down. Tory Central Office must be sweating. Thank you for your cooperation.)
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Not only did Brown and Labour mis-read the mood - I think you have too Nick. That was the most shameful PMQ's I have seen. I think you have become too cynical and are now such Brown/Labour fanboy. On Daily Politics show John Cruddas - a man who'se politics and beliefs I hold frankly contempt got it completely right that Cameron was perfectly entitled to raise the issue and was not playing party politics. All respect to him on that.
Here's the thing - the electorate is interested in policies but they are more concerned about judgement and character and Gordon Brown's lack of judgement and poisonous character showed through at PMQ.
Children and their problems are a touchy subject for both men - one reacted with real empathy and concern and one lost the plot. Gordon Brown is not fit to be Prime Minister and the sooner Haringey's social work department is purged the better.
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I think The Governor of The Bank Of England should have walked as soon as the extent of our economic plight became known. He's one of the people to blame for not preparing us for this present mess. All this nonsense about hindsight doesn't cut it for me. He's massively well remunerated to see into the financial future and he's been missing on watch. His comments on present policy don't mean a thing because it's all too late to make a real difference.
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#151
Do better?
Try coherence.
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I don't know why people are surprised at yet another Nu Labour show if insensitivity.
Few months back we had the defence secretary inferring the soldiers get paid less than Traffic Wardens because they probably couldn't get a job as one.
We had Patricia Hewitt with her you've never had it so good line to the Nurses.
Ruth Kelly’s denouncement of NIMBYISMs while opposing a series of housing developments in her constituency.
Treatment of Ghurkhas.
Latest MOD line on truths about soldier’s equipment. Soldiers are spending well over £200 pre deployment on kit not supplied by the Army (on average). I know some that have spent over £500.
10p Taxation.
Beckett and the farmers rebate debacle.
Prescott’s ridiculous class war show, in which his poor wife, looked like she was constantly apologising for his misplaced rants.
Blair’s I did the right thing in your name.
Harmon’s sermon on the class divide.
They don't realise they get peoples backs right up.
The real problem is that these so called public servants barely look around themselves while taking their noses out of the trough.
I hope today’s PMQ's haunt Brown, it illustrated very clearly that he is not the clever orator; he tries to convince himself that he is.
He is sadly scripted, and it is only the support of his ever diminishing cronies, none of whom are up to much, that keep this sad pathetic government going.
We waited for the vision, it isn't there.
The bounce has vanished.
Hopefully so will Brown.
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Nick
What has happened to the Nick Robinson whose blog, when first launched, was a real joy to read and follow! Honest political feedback from the BBC on what was really happening in parliament - independent, unbiased, factual,and refreshingly fearless reporting. But alas no longer.
You appear to have succumbed to some of the worst habits of our political masters - distorted and biased reporting, spin and lack of integrity.
You do yourself a huge diservice Nick. Today for example it seemed you were so taken aback by David Cameron opening his questions at PMQ's with a topic different to the one you had predicted you sought on the BBC's DAILY POLITICS programme to demean his motives for choosing it.
The question was important and quite proper: the reply from the Prime Minister was not befitting the office and was demeaning and disgraceful. Gordon Brown could not even bring himself to apologise when given 3 chances to do so. Yet rather than criticise this you chose to make some absurd suggestion that David Cameron had been saved from a savaging from the PM on his economic plans because he had cleverly dragged the row to cover all his allotted time at the despatch box. Shame on you Nick !
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How can the Governor saying that we are in a recession which will be "long" and "deep" be a problem for the Opposition. Oh and by the way, if you have an income, your £s will buy next to nowt on holiday for the next few years. Sometimes I think you type this blog whilst standing on your head.
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#156
The guy is 32 years old. It's got nothing to do with government education policy, failing or otherwise.
It might help if you weren't so quick to take sides. Now where did I read that?
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I think we're in a lot more trouble than I prevously thought. The Governor of The Bank Of England is in effect a twerp!
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shelling @ 119
To say that David Cameron "stoked the rage" is abhorrent, even for you, Charles
Cameron was playing politics - fair enough because he desperately wants to be the next PM.
CEH is correct and Shelling is a fool.
Sorry Shelling (not) ...
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Re 150 i think you had better go back to school, Labours vote rose 3.7%. Try to do better 0/10
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I think the fake veneer of competence has been scratched beyond repair.
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Why don't you stand for parliament as a Labour candidate Nick Robinson. You give Brown more support than the whole of the cabinet. You should certainly not be working far a so called neutral BBC.
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Much better and balanced coverage on Baby P on ITV at 6.30 than on the BBC at 6.00pm.
They had information about Haringey Council that the BBC didn't touch on.
Such a pity the BBC have to take a political view rather than just reporting the facts. I really do hate it when editors decide what I should have access to, rather than giving me the facts and letting me make up my own mind.
There again I didn't go to Oxford so am probably not intelligent enough to understand the details.
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161 backbencherPete
Nick had quite obviously written his piece, such as it was, in advance of PMQs and was caught on the hop.
Poor journalism, methinks!!!
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I turned up at this blog made a couple of economic points and am shocked at the footie attitude of some .I will not submit any further
comments on the topic which seems to be hijacked.The forensic analysis thet is attatched to PmQ's is more like replays of a ref's decision.The subjective bias of opinions as fact is crass.I have to respond to someone called Charles_E_Hardwidge who wrote"Gordon Brown identified problems with the financial system and offered solutions but nobody listened until it went wrong"
This may be your idea of the truth but he sat at and presided at meetings of the g7/8 finance ministers when they reviewed HLI's
regulation.Try reading
http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2008/10/making-monetary-policy-in-the-uk-has-become-simpler-in-no-small-part-thanks-to-gordon-brown or perhaps
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,588175,00.html
I could go on to the WEF at Davros many of these are minuted meetings.It is wrong to believe that we are not complicit in what went on ,that is a con perpetrated by GB to deflect his part .Hank Paulson today at least apologised for his part.Many in the rest of the world know Brown's part and the arrogance of saving us from his errors is not British.Please stop the parrot political rhetoric of all this and Krugman put a ? mark after his comment but i guess the significance won't mean anything.
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165:
You would appear to be part of an ever growing minority. Long live the moderators!
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Sorry one and all promised I was off to find a better place But £1 less than $1.50 worse fall in a month and the euro .835 Can't beat the markets they about sum this mess up and where is the BBC reporting of this ?Try borrowing money UK plc in sterling 10-15% currency risk plus haircut no way Darling you are without a paddle!
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151:
Oh please. Gordon Brown offered solutions and noone listened. I've got bells on all my appendages. Care to pull them?
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165:
And Gordon Brown desperately wants to stay P.M. So what!
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165:
I beg to differ. CEH is incorrect and Shelling is far from a fool. Sorry sagamix (not).
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#150 pttp
37 percent: Drop in Labour vote at Glenrothes by-election, which was apparently Gordon Brown's finest moment last week
Labour votes in 2005 Glenrothes election - 19,395
Labour votes in 2008 Glenrothes election - 19,946
Increase in Labour votes 2008 - 551
% increase in Labour vote in Glenrothes - 3%
Labour % of vote in 2005 Glenrothes by-election - 51.9%
Labour % of vote in 2008 Glenrothes by-election - 55.1%
Exposing pttp as a fool - priceless
Says it all really. We don't want you or your lies, pttp... call an electrician NOW - someone's turned out the lights in your head
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164:
The Deputy Governor of The B of E was sacked for sleeping at his post as recently as June. I think we can take what his boss says with a pinch of salt.
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Only the BBC could turn massive economic collapse caused by a labour government and confirmed by the governor of the bank of england into somehow being politically bad for the opposition.
Not sure what planet the BBC are on, but on the planet that I'm living on Mervyn King basically suggested exactly what the tories have been suggesting (ie long term balance of the books by cutting spending) but which brown/darling continually refuse to admit ever needs doing.
We're in the worst position economically in the developed world, but, hey, according to Nick labour have done nothing wrong and the tories (despite not being in power) are the only party that we should be looking at.
"Don't mention the debt. I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it."
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Crikey! Someone here (who shall remain nameless) is as unpopular as Brown.
It must be the shared personality type......
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sicilian (and shelling) @ 176
I beg to differ. CEH is incorrect and Shelling is far from a fool. Sorry sagamix (not).
Well of course that's crass for me to call individual bloggers "fools" and I didn't really mean it. What I did mean, however, is that DC is a politician in the Blair/Clinton mode - he's an actor and it's best that we realise that.
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Enough of this. I'm off to bed. What a day!
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177:
Henley by-election result in full
The full results from the by-election in Henley in Oxfordshire on 26 June 2008 were:
John Howell - Conservatives, 19,796 (56.95%, 3.46% increase on 2005 general election share of vote)
Stephen Kearney - Liberal Democrats, 9,680 (27.85%, 1.84%)
Mark Stevenson - Greens, 1,321 (3.80%, 0.54%)
Timothy Rait - British National Party, 1,243 (3.58%)
Richard McKenzie - Labour, 1,066 (3.07%, -11.68%)
Chris Adams, UK Independence Party, 843 (2.43%, -0.07%)
Bananaman Owen - Monster Raving Loony Party, 242 (0.70%)
Derek Allpass - English Democrats, 157 (0.45%)
Amanda Harrington - Independent (Miss Great Britain Party), 128 (0.37%)
Dick Rodgers - The Common Good, 121 (0.35%)
Louise Cole - Independent (Miss Great Britain Party), 91 (0.26%)
Harry Bear - The Fur Play Party, 73 (0.21%)
And your point is?
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177:
Henley by-election result in full
The full results from the by-election in Henley in Oxfordshire on 26 June 2008 were:
John Howell - Conservatives, 19,796 (56.95%, 3.46% increase on 2005 general election share of vote)
Stephen Kearney - Liberal Democrats, 9,680 (27.85%, 1.84%)
Mark Stevenson - Greens, 1,321 (3.80%, 0.54%)
Timothy Rait - British National Party, 1,243 (3.58%)
Richard McKenzie - Labour, 1,066 (3.07%, -11.68%)
Chris Adams, UK Independence Party, 843 (2.43%, -0.07%)
Bananaman Owen - Monster Raving Loony Party, 242 (0.70%)
Derek Allpass - English Democrats, 157 (0.45%)
Amanda Harrington - Independent (Miss Great Britain Party), 128 (0.37%)
Dick Rodgers - The Common Good, 121 (0.35%)
Louise Cole - Independent (Miss Great Britain Party), 91 (0.26%)
Harry Bear - The Fur Play Party, 73 (0.21%)
Total Number of Eligible Votes 71,963
Total Number of Votes cast 41,856
Total Number of Spoilt Votes 67
Turnout % 58.16%
Votes
ResultsSurname Other Names Party Votes
Brick The Flying
The Official Monster
Raving Loony Party
236
Dunwoody Tamsin
The Labour Party
Candidate
12,679
Garrett Gemma Dawn 113
Nattrass Mike UK Independence Party 922
Roberts David Alan
English Democrats -
"Putting England First!"
275
Shenton Elizabeth Liberal Democrat 6,040
Smith Robert AndrewGreen Party 359
Thorogood Paul Richard
Cut Tax on Petrol And
Diesel
118
Timpson Edward
The Conservative Party
Candidate
20,539
Walklate Mark 217
1
% votes is the proportion of votes given for each candidate as a percentage of the votes cast for all candidates.
CREWE AND NANTWICH BY-ELECTION RESULTS 2008
0.6%
0.3%
2.2%
0.7%
14.4%
0.9%
0.3%
49.1%
0.5%
30.3%
And your point is?
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re: 181 sagamix
I agree with you in that I also don't like the idea of politicians trying to feign emotion for political reasons.
I disagree with you when you say that Cameron was feigning it in this instance; I think he was genuinely really annoyed at a simple question not being answered, especially over something so basic and so important.
The general idea that you shouldn't be allowed to investigate yourself should have been a straightforward and immediate answer. Brown's failure to give such an answer had implications not just for this case but for their whole approach.
Brown wasn't willing to concede that as a general rule you shouldn't be allowed to investigate yourself, and that speaks volumes about how labour work.
Regardless of whether (like the BBC/Labour) you think it was a cynical ploy by the tories, or whether you think it was just a man being massively annoyed at such an inhuman response, the point is that it did the job; hours later Ed Balls did exactly what Cameron had asked Brown to do, and that immediate change of plan only happened because of what Cameron did at PMQs.
Actor or not, Cameron did what was needed, and the country as a whole is now better for it as we will hopefully end up minimising the risk of this happening again, and that wouldn't have happened without Cameron getting so annoyed.
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"Interestingly, some who were watching in the Commons gallery did not. They thought the Tory leader's visible loss of temper showed him in a very poor light"
says Nick Robinson...soon to be ex-BBC Political Editor
So ! Campbell, Draper & Mandy were in the gallery huh! Thanks Nick for letting us know what they wanted you to focus on!
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Nick,
Well done. Campbell and Mandelson has given you a good going over. Terrified of them aren't you? Do you still have nails left in your fingers?
Is it not this King who with Darling and Brown dithering and did not take any action when
Northern Rock was going down the tube?
Is it not this King and his BOE who were neutered by Brown's removal of BOE powers when Brown became chancellor?
The BBC, you and Peston are soon becoming the Tass and Izvestia. You see, people hit by the BBC poll tax and the BBC's open support to Brown wants this partisan news edifice to be privatised. Then you can prattle ll you want and we will not be paying you to do that.
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Nick,
I understand that only Labour will promise the BBC the continuance of license fee poll tax so that it can keep commentators like you, Peston, Naughty, Marr, Sopel etc.. How many of you there? BBC seems overmanned like the Red Army used to.
So you, Campbell, Mandelson, Brown all wanted Cameron on the floor and Brown the sociology lecturer (he did his PhD on Scottish Labour Party and not in economics if you ared to know)from Kirckaldy stand on him. So a 17 month old child life is trivial as Brown did not have his economic rant.
How do you think Brown is going to payback all the debt? Do you know when the WWII debt was finally repaid? This is not simply Tsunami coming from outside as
you and Brown want us to believe. This is cooked and served by Brown. Why so narrow remit to BOE given by Brown when he took over? Why FSA was so weak?
I want to ask Brown two questions: 1. Why Pound is soon becoming monopoly money against Euro and Dollars. USA has similar problems but Dollar is strong, similarly Euro.
2. Why he is so deluded so much that by borrowing trillions he is going to leave the debt for at least 10 generations? We do not have manufacturing, our service sector is in trouble. Where do we generate wealth to pay back the debt?
Why do we pay the license fee to hear from you this Labour trash?
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188:
But we will be paying back the increasing debt in the form of higher taxes. Alistair Darling told us so himself last night so we won't be benefiting from lower inflation after all, particularly if we go on holiday abroad.
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NICK ROBINSON (BBC) versus TOM BRADBY (ITV)
In addition to watching BBC News I have taken to watching ITV news on important political issues, and am impressed by the breadth and balance of Tom Bradby.
Does anyone else have any comments on these two politcal editors and their relative approaches?
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Salaries in the care professions are far too low. Just as front-line teachers had their pay rightly increased to attract people with intelligence and strong qualities, so the pay of front-line social workers must be increased so that the job can attract graduates with legal training.
I also question the "multi-agency" approach: having (in education) worked with other agencies it needs to be understood just how difficult it is to allocate time amidst hectic schedules to the extra communication that is implied in multi-agency work. Consideration should be given to the establishment of a SUBSTANTIAL cadre of highly qualified, responsible and accountable, front-line staff.
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#184 sicilian
Yes, Labour lost in Henley (that was a massive shock to me - almost as big a shock as the Conservatives not winning in Glenrothes), and also lost in Crewe.
However, pttp was complaining that the "fact" Labour receiving "37%" less votes in Glenrothes was being portrayed in the media as success for Brown, and was part of the "Labour lies" infiltrating the media.
He got his stats wildly wrong - I was just pointing it out.
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#194 westcornwall
How can that be?
They're public sector workers - of course they get paid too much. And they have "gold-plated" pensions. And they interfere in people's lives too much - whatever happened to the family?
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193 balhamu
Local government works with the tools it is given by the government, often to excess, like the terrorism laws to watch people dropping litter. It has some remarkably good people and some remarkably bad ones.
In addition local government's boundaries are constantly changing. Its not just a change of national government that affects local government. County and council elections happen regularly changing the political landscape and thus the masters.
Also to gain the funding they need they have to work hard at improving their key performance indicators, often to the detriment of services. Its rather like children working hard to pass their SATS for the reputation of the school rather than learning what is necessary for their own later life.
Local government officers can't operate like company managers because of this extra layer of politically motivated "management", the councillors, who in my experience are often naive and not up to the job. This is why they often employ consultants - to get experience.
So before slagging off local government I think you have to recognise the difference becween public and private organisations.
I have never worked in local government but my wife did for many years before moving to local government consultancy. And the stories she brings home of internal politics, poor management and self-serving appall me.
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Nick,
Sure you saw the Darling interview in The Independent today.
Some thoughts for potential questions for Darling when you next see him:-
1. Could Mr Darling comment on his observation that "We reduced the debt we inherited" by reference to the ONS statistics.
2. "spent money where it was needed on schools, hospitals and transport" - how much of this has been via PFI? What is the 'real' debt number is one were to take a conservative (little c, not C) view of our position and assume that, with the liabilities relating to these ultimately resting with the Govt, we accounted for them in our national debt.
3. "We also go into this period with interest rates the lowest since the year after I was born [1954]". Why is this a positive thing? Could one not argue that we are FORCED to go into the recession in such a position, resulting in little monetary flexibility, rather than by design?
4. "You do have a duty to level with people. There is no point in telling people things are better than they are". See point 2.
5. "There are two sides to it [Keynesian economics]. It is also important that, like anybody else, you live within your means. You have to demonstrate in the medium term how you propose to do that." So, how much will taxes rise, or public expenditure be cut in the medium term to pay for a peculiar brand of prudence over the last eleven years, allowing Govt to balance the books? Clarity appreciated.
I look forward to your pushing these issues publicly at the next opportunity.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/so-mr-darling-how-are-you-going-to-get-us-out-of-this-1015833.html
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Mervyn King doubles up as a world class darts player in his spare time. Perhaps that is what he should now concentrate on because he aint no good at his other job. I don't take any advice or pertinent comments from the man who helped to lead us into this mess!
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The Governor of the Bank of England was thrown on the defensive yesterday after the deepening economic slump forced it drastically to rethink its forecasts for Britain’s prospects.
Mervyn King was forced to deny that he had been “caught with his pants down” by the pace and scale of the country’s slide into a potentially deep and prolonged recession. He was largely unapologetic despite the Bank unveiling the biggest overhaul of its assessment of the economic outlook since it was given independent control of interest rates in 1997.
He said “It is always possible to set policy with the benefit of hind-sight. There is no way in which the committee can have perfect foresight.”
Critics of the Governor’s past handling of the crisis are likely to be inflamed, however, if the economy succumbs to the severe slump that the Bank projected yesterday.
Detractors point out that only three months ago the Bank was predicting only one or two quarters of modest decline in the economy, but its main view now is for GDP to plunge by between 1.5 and 2 per cent next year, in the most vicious slump seen since the depths of the 1980s recession.
Critics also note that David Blanchflower, a dissident member of the MPC, predicted a recession as far back as the spring.
The scale of the change in the Bank’s analysis is emphasised not only by last week’s 1.5 percentage point cut in interest rates to 3 per cent, the lowest for half a century, but also by its indications that it is poised to cut rates further. Mr King conceded that the scaling-back of the Bank’s forecasts for inflation yesterday was the largest in the MPC’s 11-year history.
Mr King’s detractors will also accuse him of staging a U-turn over the case for a fiscal boost to the economy through tax cuts and public spending increases. Having questioned the value of this three months ago, and suggested it could prove ineffective, yesterday he gave cautious backing to expected fiscal action by the Chancellor this month. Subject to conditions he said it would be “perfectly reasonable in these circumstances to see some fiscal stimulus”.
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Come on Nick!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7694646.stm
The title is:
Corfu questions linger for Mandelson
And it is dated 28th October!!
How much longer are you going to let them linger?
It has been reported (elsewhere - not on the BBC!) that he did discuss of EU Tariffs with Oleg - despite earlier denials...
According to: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7727900.stm
Mandleson got the 'spectators newcomer' award - everyone knows he should have qualifed for the 'resignation' award (actually won by david davis re:42 days)
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190 Mikepko
Nick Robinson vs Tom Bradby
I agree about your thoughts on Tom Bradby.
That comparison in fact had been in my mind when I made my comments.
Nick had become by far my preferred Political Editor in recent years but for whatever his reasons he seems to have abandoned his fearless and independant reporting style in the last few months. I just hope this is a temporary relapse.
As for Tom Bradby he is improving all the time . He has certainly grown rapidly into a first rate political commentator - as you say he is always balanced and clear in his reporting but to me his strongest quality is his non partisan approach. Unlike his peers in Sky news (Adam Boulton) and Channel 4 (Jon Snow) who clearly show their political leanings I wouldn't have a clue where Tom Brady's lie. That USED to be the case with Nick Robinson but sadly these days he seems to have joined the rest of the BBC news team . I just hope that this is short lived and Nick's fearless and impartial style will return !
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regarding Tom Bradby, I can help ...
He's a tory of the intellectually challenged middle england school - watching him is like getting the daily mail or the sun on the television. He's also a little bit up himself.
okay if you like that sort of thing, I suppose.
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#194 mike
You're a heretic on this site.
You disagree with the sacred code that binds most bloggers on here.
1. Public sector spending is by definition inefficient and almost certainly a waste of time
2. Public sector wages are far too high and pension arrangements far too generous
3. The previous Labour government have been almost communist in their economic approach
4. Brown is evil and must be squashed
5. Everything Brown and Labour says is completely wrong (even if we'd agree with it coming from the lips of a bluer politician)
6. Everything Dave and the Conservatives says is true (even if it is similar to what Brown is saying or disagrees with the facts)
7. Richard Littlejohn tells it like it is - this country is being destroyed by namby-pampy concerns with human rights, 'elf and safety, the do-gooding liberal media elite, homosexuals, gypsies, Eastern Europeans and the ZaNuLabore PF
8. Labour always spin things
9. Conservatives never ever spin things
10. The Conservatives never, ever said regulation on the City was too high and have always believed that the Government should intervene to question why bankers were getting paid so much money
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Richard Littlejohn tells it like it is
Hope you're not being sarcastic about our foremost social commentator - c'mon, what other country in the world has such a trenchant opponent of all that's spineless and cowardly and such a trenchant defender of all that's fine and dandy?
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Richard Littlejohn v Piers Morgan (a staunch supporter of GB) is no contest. Littlejohn is the man!
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#201
And I forgot to add
11. The BBC is biased and Mandelson/Alistair Campbell have editorial control of everything said. Nick Robinson, a former Young Conservative leader, is a communist now
12. The BBC would be far more unbiased if we privatised it and let an Australian billionaire run things, and gave Richard Littlejohn and Melanie Phillips joint editorial control
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