Green's arrest draws parallels
Tory outrage at the arrest of Damian Green mirrors the anger that many in Labour felt when Tony Blair's aide Ruth Turner was arrested in the cash for honours investigation. Although their cases are very different there are important similarities.
Green (pictured left), like Turner (pictured right), was arrested under suspicion of conspiracy. In other words, he has not been arrested simply for receiving leaked government documents, but under suspicion of conspiring to have them leaked.
Also like Ruth Turner, he found a large number of police officers turning up on his doorstep instead of having an arranged interview. The justification will be the same in both cases - that the suspect could not be relied on to produce computer or documentary evidence that the police want to see.
There are plenty of people who believe that Green like Turner is unlikely to ever face successful charges, and there are plenty of parliamentarians who see another parallel with Churchill. He of course relied on a foreign office mole Ralph Wigram to tell him of the failure to prepare to stand up to the Nazi threat. Damian Green's revelations may be on a rather less dramatic scale but they raise real concerns about the capacity of parliamentarians to do their job.
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This is it? Nick are you serious? Have you read any of the papers, the blogs, the responses?
Okay well, if ever I needed 100% proof, I now have it. This blog is extremely tame and ending it with the last line, is not good enough I'm afraid. I can actually not believe this is all we are getting from a political editor of the BBC (actually I can).
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But where's the bit about Brown creating a new Gestapo to fight his political opponents and lock them up?
Where's the comparison with Mugabe?
Some here will accuse you of bias I'm sure.
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Nick - you say "there are important similarities"
In the 'cash for honours' the investigation was about alleged corruption.
This case is about trying to silence a whistleblower, and an attempt to cover-up government ineptitude.
Not the same thing at all!
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Also: Pathetic to drag Turner in this. Difference there was this: She was potentially involved in the government allegedly selling loans for honours.
the question here is: Did Smith know about the arrest (she says no, yet Cameron and Johnson knew?) and was the arrest politically motivated.
Where will this be addressed? Why is this not mentioned? This is an outrage.
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Well done Nick, you missed the point entirely! This is an attack on our democracy. Gordon Brown was not arrested having been the beneficary of leaks while in opposition but Damian Green is - what sort of government do we now have. What price a cancelled election as it is not in the public interest?
It only took 11 1/2 years for Labour to institute the Police state, once they had created the architecture.
I am seriously considering emigrating
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Let the police get on and do their job. The truth will come out in the end.
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And what about the police invading the Palace of Westminster to raid green's office.
I note you do not comment but surely this is against ALL Parliamentary tradition...
Arresting someone at home is one thing, seizing an MP's working papers dealing with constiteuency matters is somewhat different.
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Finally!
Erm and how is the Turner incident a valid precedent?
She was not an MP.
Also what was Turner's role as a decision-making or influencer on honours.
Damian Green is the Shadow Immigration Minister - the documents is his possession were related to?
Nice try but 0 out of 10 really.
Is this the best that Campbell and Mandy can manage?
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I think we are entitled to ask if Sir Ian Blair and Jaquie Smith knew about this in advance?
If not, why not?
If so, how do they justify it?
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So Nick, are you ready for the New World Order, you know, the one Brown mentioned in his speech?
I used to feel certain that it was, at best, a distant dream in the minds of the demented.
Not so sure now. Something is very wrong with Labour, and if they are allowed to continue I don't think it is going to be a whole barrel of laughs - as they say.
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The Labour party are turning government into a dictatorship.
They have had Damian Green arrested for political purposes.
There is a mole in the Home Office and another in the Treasury.
These moles are helping the British people understand how shockingly bad Labour have been in government.
The biggest threat to Brown's personal ambition is his record on the economy.
In arresting Green, Labour are hoping for two things:
1. To flush out or halt the Treasury mole from releasing the truth about the nations parlous financial state
2. To halt the run of bad headlines in the press which have finally woken up to Gordon Browns economic mismanagement
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And why are all comments above awaiting moderation, are they being vetted by the anti-terror sqaud to see if there are any undesirables posting their opinion?
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Well, great start Auntie.
First off it takes til mid-day for something to follow the 20%VAT thread and when it does appear, it has no insight, apart from to try and draw parallels with another event that has nothing to do with it; 9 comments, all awaiting moderation.
Grea stuff. Gis a job, I can do that.
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I was in a position where I could've leaked information that would've blown a Tory minister's career for seriously misleading parliament but Clive Ponting and the Official Secrets Act was ringing in my ears at the time so I chickened out even though there was a clear public interest. That minister's career was over and they got found out later but that's another thing.
This stuff the Tories are whining about is small beer. I see there's plenty of legitimate reasons to examine where the line between stuff that's kept confidential or not is re-examined, and how much MP's can actually use, as I'm not persuaded "freedom of information" as it stands is necessarily very helpful. Indeed, it can be counter-productive.
Instead of having a policy view or putting the hands up, the Tories are just grandstanding and fuelling outrage. I just think that sort of thing is a waste of space, and if people focused on the real issues of policy and MP's competence instead of trying to cheat and slime their way around the system we might all be better off.
Leaks are a feature not a bug. Yeah, right.
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ooo, CEH is on... I need a laugh...
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Good man for a new thread.
A comparison between an investigation in to the alleged selling gongs (and arrest of a non-elected adviser) vs a front bench MP being arrested for revealing true and also awkward facts from the Home Office.
That's an interesting suggestion surely...
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Nick,
I find the parallel between the two cases a little tenuous apart from the same arrest situation...
One was a Labour member, the party in power, so that the police could investigate the party in power over Cash for Honours
This case is an opposition member accused of releasing info that damages the government! Even Chris Huhne of the Lib Dems has said "Receiving information from government departments in the public interest and publicising it is a key part of any MP's role"
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Another blatantly biased comment, Nick.
When will you feel politically independent enough to tell it like it is, whenever it's damaging to Labour?
Fact: Cash for Honours revolved around a criminal investigation, where allegations of criminal misdeeds were being assessed.
Fact: bringing information into the public domain, when such information should have been there in the first place, is the JOB of the Opposition, and is NOT a criminal offence.
All this on a day when Sir Ian Blair is telling us that you should keep "Politics out of Policing", as well!
Really - if this didn't have the political backdrop of eleven years of Labour incompetence, we'd scarcely believe it was possible... as it is, we just shrug our shoulders and expect nothing better.
But we should be able to accept better from you than such blatant political bias....
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I am even more disgusted in the government than I was before. They really have the police under their control to do their bidding. It is sick that this government are doing god knows what behind the electorates back & when someone dares to expose them he is unceremoniously arrested. it is no wonder that government agencies, such as social services, think they can, and do, act in the same way to cover their backsides when they have done wrong.
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It’s about time something was done about all the leaks, its got so bad now that the government must be afraid to even consider some things for the fear that the opposition and media will get hold of it and spin it to their own ends. Decision making at the top requires every alternative to be considered however unpopular, knowing that the current opposition seem to get hold of so much information way before it is anywhere near reality will prevent some of the hard questions from being asked and necessary actions being taken.
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#17 and #640 previous post
For someone with such strong I find it highly unlikely that you have never voted Labour.
Could this be because you are not a UK citizen and hence are not entitled to?
Maybe your interest in UK politics stems from having lived here for a while? I bet you don't have a Bristol accent despite having lived there as revealed by your letters to The Guardian!
Now's you opportunity to clarify this for all the bloggers or are you going to refer me rather than show some real honesty. So - are you British - do you live in the UK? I can reply in the positive to both of these.
BTW, as I work for a US company your use of language/phraseology reveals a very distinct US flavour - I see it every day :) Your postings at odd hours seem to indicate you are still there or are suffering from a sleep disorder.
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As I write this no responses have been moderated but I will agree with them as I have no doubt what their content will be.
Shame on you Nick
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Toenails,
Nice job in trying to take the sting out of the Conservative attacks on the government by the way.
The Labour spin which you have been fed on this is presumably that the Conservatives shouldn't complain because one of us has been arrested under the same charges.
There is a key difference between Ruth Turner and Damian Green which you oddly fail to mention.
Turner was suspected of trying to cover up Government mismanagement, where as Green is arrested for trying to uncover Government mismanagement.
Long live the Stasi. Long Live Pravda.
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Now here is something sensible from the Labour side from the Beeb article:
There was also concern about the arrest on the Labour benches.
Former minister Denis MacShane said that the Speaker should make clear that MPs were entitled to hold sensitive material in the same way as lawyers and doctors.
"To send a squad of counter terrorist officers to arrest an MP shows the growing police contempt for Parliament and democratic politics," he said.
"The police now believe that MPs are so reduced in public status that they are fair game for over-excited officers to order dawn raids, arrests and searches of confidential files held by MPs or those who work for them.
"I am not sure this is good for British democracy."
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So you'll discuss the similarities but not the differences? Why, is it not the right narrative.
This is not the action I expect in a democratic country. Every day, in every way, Brown and his hencemen turn this country into more of a prison. Tame journalists like yourself are complicit in that.
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Nick, I'm absolutely amazed, is this seriously all you have to say on the matter?
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Arrest Brown for handling documents leaked by Government:
Plus nickin' Tory policies
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What an unimpressively dismissive and flippant response, Nick.
Are you now suggesting that the role of opposition politicians is NOT to hold the government to account and bring matters of public interest to light, which otherwise would have been kept hidden?
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And let's not forget to mention Ian Blair in this. This has of course all the hallmarks of one final bit of revenge before his LONG overdue exit. Sickening. This is one of the blackest days in Britain and Nick fails us miserably.
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Why the need to bring Ruth Turner into this? You yourself mention that the cases are very different.
I hope that this isn't politically motivated (I guess we shall see if Gordon Brown tries to make a political point of it). However, this is a worrying sign for our democracy.
If the government of the day (no matter what party) are withholding information that should be in the public domain because it is an embarassment to the government then it is the government that should be investigated and NOT the people who released the information.
The Government is supposed to be answerable to the people, and none of the information released would compromise national security (if anything it shows us just how lax on national security things can be - which is a failing of the mechanics of government rather then the actual party of government).
I am glad that the Lib Dems have not tried to make any political capital from this, and have instead agreed that this is worrying.
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I find it impossible to accept that, if David Cameron, Boris Johnson and the Speaker of the House of Commons knew Damian Green was about to be arrested, no one in the government knew. This proves one of two things , either communication between civil servants (inclduing the police) and government ministers is at an all time low or we are seeing the birth of a police state.
The implications of this, contrary to what the government spokesman stated above, are very dramatic and of enormous consequence to democracy. If MP's can't make public material just because it could discredit the government then why have an opposition at all? Perhaps this question has been answered by the arrest, Big Brother is alive and well.
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This is the final straw, Nick, you must pursue the government to the nth degree on this.
First, that wee old man getting booted out of the Labour party conference under terror laws, then Iceland being treated like a terrorist and now the Loyal opposition. Where will it end? I have never supported a political party before but I joined the Conservatives this morning. This government is morally (and monetarily for that matter) bankrupt.
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Seems that Big Brother is getting bigger and bigger
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Yesterday the Labour Party reaches another milestone in its attack on freedom and democracy in the UK. It is inconceivable that Government Ministers were not consulted prior to this raid - and nobody denies that this probe was launched on the orders of a top Cabinet official, who clearly must be someone close to Gordon Brown. It is indefensible to send anti-terror police to arrest a leading politician whose only crime has been to make public accurate information which is in the public interest. The Labour establishment has revealed that it is prepared to use the tactics of Robert Mugabe in order to silence opposition. The only thing more worrying than the fact that this has happened is the supine response from the media, who have scarcely dared to utter a word that might be deemed critical of the Labour Party since Mandelson's return.
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Ha ha ha ha
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There may be more to the arrest than meets the eye, we will see.
Nick has not picked up on No. 10's denial and the fact it does not preclude the PM or Home Sec knowing about the arrest of a MP, or even an opposition spokeman.
What is striking about this blog is the need to revert to Turner when the similarities are thin at best. Turner's arrest was in the context of an investigation into alleged top level Government corruption. It did not concern making leaked information publicly available. It also did not concern a MP.
Has Nick never 'assisted' a leak? Are all political journalists to be arrested?
As I say we may not know the full picture but this blog is a feeble attempt to map out the potential issues.
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#7 wumper wrote: Let the police get on and do their job. The truth will come out in the end.
Let the Police get on with the job? Such as prosecuting innocent people like the;
Guildford Four,
Birmingham Six,
Bridgwater Four,
M25 Three,
Kevin Callan,
Dave Wood,
Adrian Maher,
Graham Huckerby
Shay Power
Etc etc
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Nick
No wonder it took you so long to blog -- must have taken ages to come up with such a pointless entry.
He is an elected MP and a shadow front bencher!
She was some unaccountable aide.
If you think MPs are so likely to destroy evidence that they have to be tackeled mob handed, then you are more cynical than most of the public that you complain about !
Useless Nick, really useless.
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p.s. What about mandleson/Oleg -- or are you hoping that will go away too?
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Many previous comments are awaiting moderation but I’ll no doubt echo the thoughts of many...
Nick Robinson, Political Editor of the BBC, is this all you’ve got to say on the subject!?
Goodness me. The tin-foil-hat brigade will be wondering why the silence. (After all, you haven’t really said very much in this post.)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#7
Let the police get on and do their job. The truth will come out in the end.
The perverse thing is that this is all about supressing the truth coming out.
Look how Nick is choosing to report it. Conflating it with some arrest (not of an MP mind) from years ago.
Truth come out? I'd like to think so but a decade of this lot has taught me that 'the truth' is whatever they declare it to be backed up with some 'independent expert' that agrees with them.
War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Come on - join in - we've got the two-minute hate of Maggie up next.
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This is very weak. Arresting a confrere of the PM (ie Turner and Blair) is entirely different from arresting a member of the opposition.
I am a Labour supporter, but the lack of respect for basic civil liberties by this government is manifest to all.
I would not vote Tory, nor trust Cameron, but it would be best for all if we had a hung parliament next.
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That's it?
Nick it's very probable our Prime Minister has sold a lie to the British people today, and yet again he is not pulled up on it.
BBC: "Mr Cameron, London mayor Boris Johnson and Commons Speaker Michael Martin were all informed about the raids.
But Downing Street insisted ministers had not been given advance warning and Prime Minister Gordon Brown said it was purely a police matter."
This has to be the biggest load of rubbish I've seen or heard for a while.
It's ridiculous to believe a Member of Parliment gets arrested and the Prime Minister and Home Office does not know before hand.
Why aren't you questioning this?
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Wumper:
"Let the police get on with their job... the truth will out in the end...."
If only it were so Wumper, if only it were so. I can think a certain Brazilian family who would like the truth to out, not to mention the rest of us where the truth about 7/7 has certainly not come out.
Vested interests and political agendas. Dontcha just love 'em?
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Of course Ministers had forewarning of this arrest. Even Diane Abot said as much last night. The crux of this whole matter is that The Government now have little or no integrity in the eyes of impartial observers and resort to fibs whenever they are backed into a corner. Whether or not Green is guilty of misconduct is another issue.
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Oh dear Nick, I'm disappointed.
You are either disingenuous and have decided upon this comparison (between Greene and Turner) on your own (why did it take so long), or have been waiting for the combined forces of Campbell and Mandelson to work out the angle for you.
In either case its taken a long time, and yet you only have a few lines of blog to show for it. Why? Does your line of argument not stand up to more reasoned analysis? Are you afraid to question the possibilities?
How long has the investigation actually been going on? If neither the prime minister nor home secretary was aware of the investigation, and the pending arrest, who was?
Since it is a political issue, was it not prudent to make the head of government aware of the siutation?
How many other possible incidences are being kept away from the government?
Who's in charge?
Is this all purely to provide McCavity with plausible deniabilitiy?
If I were in charge, I'd certainly like to know what's going on, specially if I'm likely to be accused of complicitiy, and if I can embarrass my political opponents over their wrongdoings.
Of course, if it turns out there was nothing untoward happening, and it turns into a political hot potato, then I might not want to be involved, which is normally where the great innocent finds himself.
Who's next I wonder?
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balhamu wrote:
But where's the bit about Brown creating a new Gestapo to fight his political opponents and lock them up?
Where's the comparison with Mugabe?
Some here will accuse you of bias I'm sure.
The sad fact is that if this had happened in an African country the government would have made a big thing of speaking out against it.
However, my guess is that a) the government had no knowledge of this and b) the law will be clarified to prevent this from happening again.
Of course if the government was behind this then I am sure that they have already placed their order with the supplier for the jackboots and the berets!
And to be fair, I think the unneeded comparisson with the Cash for Honours scandal is what is putting a political spin on it (basically "Hey the tories can't complain as they didn't complain when it happened to a Labour aide").
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I wonder if the the Tories will now apologise for imprisoning Sarah Tisdall as leaks are ok!
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'Could do better' comes to mind on this one Mr Nick.
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Rather than Ruth Turner, a better comparison would be Blair himself, to consider what did and did not happen.
Unlike Green, he was interviewed by arrangement, without arrest, in privacy and not under caution.
Unlike Green, he was accused of being complicit in a serious offence equating to large-scale fraud, for personal benefit and enrichment.
Unlike Green, his reputation has survived relatively unscathed.
Unlike Green, he was not interviewed by anti-terrorist police. Why on earth did that happen? Green is neither a terrorist suspect or accused of being complict in terrorist issues.
Green should count himself lucky the 42 day legislation fell. He could have been locked up for six weeks.
Brown’s Mugabie style method of persecuting his opponents is a worrying development. Is Brown intending to rig the next election by arresting the entire conservative party 21 days before the poll?
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I'm amazed that our self-styled Prime Minister Elect believes that using leaks is an essential part of democracy. With the arrogant and unpopular George Osborne likely to be Chancellor I look forward to PMQ's when Cameron will congratulate the Opposition front bench on using leaks to embarass his Government.
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Bit of a hold up in the moderation queue.
Just let em in, hartwidge will tell you what can stay.
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Sorry Nick,
Your political roots are showing, Turner was suspected of being involved in a huge financial scandal and was not a Member of Parliament let alone a Front Bencher, Green is doing his job.
We need a Public Inquiry into the disgraceful misuse of terrorism legislation.
David, Morpeth
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I wonder if our Terrorist Police (sic) couldn’t arrest Britain’s best known alleged terrorist/war criminal, Mr T Blair. You know, of the Iraq illegal war fame? Tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians are dead because of his (…and others, of course!) decisions. His defence that he was doing ‘what he thought right’ is no defence at all. Remember ‘Shock & Awe’ there was a single word for that in the 1930’s… Blitzkrieg.
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44 post pending
How many people work as mods???
Maybe there wouldn't have been such a rapid reaction if Robinson bothered to report the news properly.
This signal the beginning of the end for the BBC. Once the Tories come into power I'm sure they'll begin to scrap this tax on the Great British public
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The police have arrested someone for a suspected offence. It's what they do day in day out. If politicians don't like the law that they've created change it. Until then let the police get on with upholding the law and stop briefing against them every time one of the elite get nicked. Surely it's for the court to decide who if anyone is guilty?
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Most of that would just be internet talk.
While Green may be let off the hook, I'm wondering how much this will undermine the Tories earlier making hay. They gained from squeezing every ounce of emotive juice out of allegations they made against the government and if they rush to defend this one it might let some more air out of their bubble.
I've looked down the list of leaked stuff and it looks trivial. Most of that is just the mistakes and grease of getting an imperfect system to work. But, instead of using that insight to help develop policy or improve the system the Tories look as if they just tried to use it to embarass the government.
Looking at this from a software developers perspective, I'd rather stuff was designed properly and worked well. If MP's feel that they've got to "hack the system" to make things work that suggests there's something wrong with the design. I get no sense the Tories understand that.
If you look at the praise they heaped on the City for its "creative products"and never saying a peep about how "Chinese walls" were routinely broken, you have to ask yourself if the Tory party actually has the capacity to identify and fix the system or, indeed, their own internal problems.
I'm even less certain of Cameron's leadership now than I was yesterday, and I thought that couldn't get any lower. He seems to lack any grip on strategy and is a bit quick to defend his chums without qualification, just more lurid accusations and manufactured anger.
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Police interfereing in Parliament is a police state, says Tony Benn
13:31 | 28/11/2008
Tony Benn, Former Energy Secretary
The World At One, BBC Radio 4
Mr. Benn condemned the arrest of Damian Green. He said: “It is a total breach of what accord the privleges of parliament and therefore, the electors. His computers have been searched, his e-mail has been frozen.”
He said that it was tantamount to a Contempt of Parliament. “Once police can interfere in parliament, then we’re into a police state.”
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Leaking of confidential information is something Jaqui Smiths Mob do frequently when it suits them, but when its done to them their rage knows no bounds.
The information was of no consequence to national security but very embarassing to the Home Secretary who is now getting vindictive
However There are many MPs who could easily be arrested and charged with Fraud Perjury war crimes etc (think of Derek Conway) and the police do nothing
Yet when the home secretary wants revenge over the leaking of papers which are of no consequence to national security but highly embarassing to her the police storm in using anti terror powers, incidentallly another example of the way anti terror powers are abused by the people in power
this proves the police are not politically neutral but are the arm of an ever nastier political class
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I wonder if it had occured to Mr Robinson that the next time he is in recept of a leaked document, the anti terror cops might just bang on his front door..... If I were Mr Robinson, I would be at the shredder right now....... Be afraid , very afraid of this ghastly authoritarian Govt.
David Davis was SPOT ON>
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Wouldn't it be great if Mandelson was given the same amount of scrutiny?
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And Turner was busted by anti-terrorist cops? Oh, and a leak ABOUT illegality, covered up in Government, is in the same catagory as corruption at the highest possible level?
Is this really the very best you can do? The best spin you can put on this shameful slide to totalitarianism?
Word on t'street in Macclesfield Nick is that people are more than a little angry with this government, and more than a little ashamed of you.
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What a load of plonkers that comment on here Nick. These pathetic conspiracy theorists would see you as politically motivated if you farted on camera. They truly do not have a brain between them.
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I have to say, these posts are right - Nick, what are you on?
They are completely different incidents and you have totally been spun. Shame on you. The real questions remain unresolved:
What did the PM and Home Secretary know? If nothing, why not when just about every other leading politian and partliamentarian knew? Why were counter-terrorism officers used? Green is about threatening as the proverbial dead sheep. What do Labour think about this? How does this also affect your job - you rely on leaks just as much!
Come off it Nick. This is a serious breach of parliamentary protocol and a blatant attempt to use those police-state powers we all feared. Now please start reporting it properly.
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Nick
the comparison is not apt in any way whatsoever
Ruth Turner was arrested due to an investigation into political corruption in which serious laws had been broken. The outrage felt was by people who thought they were above the law which was something that only little people had to obey
This is a case of the home secretary being enraged by leaks, something she is happy to do herself when its in her interests and using the police to pursue a personal vendetta.
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This whole episode stinks to high heaven. The parallels with the Ruth turner affair are tenuous in the extreme, it is bizarre to claim similarity.
We are heading for a police state.
Election NOW
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I always read Nick's blog - usually to see how he is managing to twist the latest story in the government’s favour - and it usually earns a grudging nod at a job well spun.
But I'm afraid that this is beyond a joke. Where is the righteous and justified outrage? - and from where comes the utterly specious comparison with Ruth Turner?
Nick, you should be ashamed at yourself - you are much better than this....
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This government leaks like a sieve when it suits them, breaking parliamentary tradition to make important announcements in the House, before going to the press.
But when embarrassing news about their incompetence is uncovered by a whistleblower, they send in the police!
Going through an MP's private office is totally unacceptable - unless there was some evidence of a serious crime such as fraud or corruption (which is not the case here)
This government is all about spin, lies and cover-ups. Is it really the role of the police to silence the opposition?
Still, Damian Green should be thankful he was only banged up for a few hours, not 42 days.
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Very much a sign of the times which most of us could see coming.
Using the terrorism act against Iceland was the start of worse things to come.
As soon as the police are given more powers they start to use them in ways they were not meant to use them for.
Thank goodness the 42 days was chucked out.
Everyone should now fear what is next seeing as they can now use this terrorism act for virtually anything they don't like.
Perhaps the bloggers will be next.
We really do need a more sensible government in power.
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Tony Benn on "World At One" thinks arrest is contempt of Parliament. Parliament is a court and court witnesses can't be arrested.
The Permanent Secretary, David Normington, may have been under pressure to involve police:
Bob - halfway down
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I am a regular reader and occasional poster to this blog, and have up to now been able to hold my tongue on what appeared to me to be pretty blatant bias but I can't believe the current post..
Nick says...
Damian Green's revelations may be on a rather less dramatic scale but they raise real concerns about the capacity of parliamentarians to do their job.
Exactly what concerns could you have about a shadow minister highlighting issues which are clearly in the public interest? If the Tories were in power and this happened to a Labour minister I would be just as quick to jump to his or her defence. And I'm afraid where Nick sees the similarities between this and cash for honours I only see a chasm the size of the grand canyon.
One was about a clearly planned and concerted scheme to open the upper echelons of our democracy to bribery ( about which no charges were brought ) while the other is the release of information in the public benefit.
I sincerely hope we can expect police to be arriving at the workplaces of the senior civil servants at HMRC to find the despicable fiends who leaked out the PBR early - but then of course those were 'controlled' leaks weren't they?
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Like so many others, I am very disturbed by this development. Whilst Civil Servants should not Leak, it is the duty of the Opposition to hold the Government of the day to account.
For the Police to undertake a search of an MP’s Office in these circumstances should be a breach of Parliamentary Privilege. If it is not, then Parliament should change the rules urgently, our democracy depends upon it.
I am also concerned that the BBC’s Political Editor was silent on this issue for so many hours. His response is limp. It suggests that the current Government has successfully “tamed” the BBC and is now set to try to “scare” both Civil Servants and Members of Parliament to prevent effective Opposition. Increasingly we appear more like a “Banana Republic” than a leading democracy
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There has to be real and total outrage about this. The government is lying to us, it is behaving like Mugabe's Zimbabwe at the moment.
Green's parliamentary offices were raided, his computer and phone lines cut, and he was questioned for 9 hours. About a leak from the home office. which is by the governments own accounts, a department not fit for purpose.
We have come to a desperate point in this country.
What next - disappearances?
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I seem to remember that Busted Brown himself was the recipient of plenty of leaked information when in opposition and that he did not hesitate to use it to his own advantage.
If challenged he would have said: THE NATION HAS THE RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT THE WICKED TORIES ARE PLANING AGAINST THE FAMILIES, THE SMALL BUSINESSES bla bla bla....
I have great doubts about the honesty and integrity of Brown and his band of merry men but I cannot believe they knew about it or perhaps they are more stupid than what I thought !!! Even the Dodgy Lord himself ( not well known for his straight batting ) will have seen the dangers and the negative consequences of such a stupid act.
By the way Nick any further news about his no business related friendship with the rich russian or is it history and all is well!!
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There's terrorists in India, our economy is going down the pan and MPs are being arrested for telling the truth, and what does Brown deem important:
X-Factor finalists!! I despair!
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20081128/ten-pm-writes-to-x-factor-finalists-ea4616c.html
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Brown is deluded, mad and needs removing before he does any more damage to this country. Surely everyone can see this now. This madness has got to stop!
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I think Nick has really missed the point here. This government has done more to restricts freedoms, install CCTV and monitoring of the population, harden terror laws and now want to introduce identity papers.
When opposition MPs start to be arrested on jumped up charges for doing there job by holding the government to account, the trend becomes clear. Democracy only lasts as long as we protect it. Good intentions pave the way to hell and chipping away at our freedoms leads to a dictatorship.
This blog needs to address these issues rather then paint it a party tit for tat.
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I agree with the general tenor of this blog and am disappointed that it has not been reflected in the Radio4 news bulletins to which I have been listening.
A number of your contributors have referred to "whistleblowers", which is an emotive term that should be restricted to a person acting on a matter of conscience regarding a matter which has come to their attention during the normal course of their duties. It should not be applied, for instance, to someone who seeks out information on governments, perhaps at the behest of a third party, which might be politically embarrassing or simply conflicts with their own beliefs. There should be no protection for Civil Servants who use their position to root out information of this nature or to any of their contacts who encourage them so to do.
Speculation is pointless in this particular case because the facts are not yet public knowledge but the use of the conspiracy laws does suggest that it is not a simple case of an aggrieved Civil Servant passing information on a matter of conscience to an MP in a position to put the matter right.
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It took you all morning to come up with that report did it?
Comparing an opposition spokesman highlighting information being suppressed by the Home Office to an unelected aide potentially involved in corruption?
At the very least comment on the likelihood of the Home Secretary and other senior ministers not being warned in advance when Call Me Dave and Boris were?
While you're at it post a blog on what action you expect to be taken against Treasury officials and ministers who you confirmed on this blog had discussed the PBR before publication. When will the Met be arresting you to gain access to your files?
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Nick - your comparison is ridiculous.
Turner was arrested in relation to suspected corruption.
Green was - allegedly - receiving information from a whistle-blower uncovering Home Office mistakes and failures.
And, is it really believable that although the Met informed Cameron, Johnson and Uncle Tom Cobbley, neither the PM, Home Secretary or any senior government minister was alerted to the arrest of an opposition MP and the likely outrage that would follow?
Why do you fall for Mandy's spin time and again? I'm beginning to think that it's neither accidental or naivety....
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Come on Nick, there is no comparison at all.
If Mr Green had NOT brought to light this incompetance by the Government, he would be guilt of not doing his job - a far greater crime than telling the truth. Ruth Turner was trying to procure an offence and got found out. How you can compare these two unrelated incidents is beyond me.
The comparison with Churchill's sources of information and what was done with this information is much more appropriate, and we all know who was right.
Did the cabinet office complain of its own volition one has to ask, and why did the police use anti-terrorism laws again - answer, because the government have let them.
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I promise that I have pondered long the batch of responses to recent Nick Robinson blogs all alleging bias. I have wanted to believe that my my concerns were misplaced and that my own political views (heavily blue I am happy to confirm!) and subsequent sensitivities would not colour my response to this significant (and, so often in the past, impressive) political and journalistic figure. This blog has removed any reservations that I might have had. This commentary represents a serious misjudgement on Nick's part in making a wholly inappropriate comparison in pursuit, I presume, of balance. We should expect better of the Political Editor of the BBC. The two issues linked to the arrest of these figures are entirely different as various responses have highlighted. Secondly, the roles of the two people concerned are entirely different. Damien Green is an elected representative of the people of Ashford. Ruth Turner was a Party appointment working, in effect, for the then Prime Minister in his role as Party Leader. To compare the two is to demonstrate an incredible lack of historical, journalistic and political judgement on Nick's part. If he wishes to protest that balance was his aim then the only suitable comparison was one G Brown who regularly leaked (in the political sense!) in the 1980s. Of course he was never arrested even though his leaks were often from the much more sensitive Ministry of Defence. This blog from Nick truly defies believe and I cannot wonder that there are so many responses awaiting moderation because I suspect that spluttering rage will have been the quite justified response of several correspondents to this story in general and Nick's spin on it in particular.
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Perhaps you should be worried about freedom of the press next or is that the reason for the lacklustre criticism?
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Nick, is this the most that Lord Mandy would allow you to say?
##1, 3, 4 & 6 say it all really, but it will be interesting to see if any NuLab apologists can come up with something more convincing than balhamu's desperate #2.
Altogether an appropriate number for the first sycophantic post, methinks.
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A very very good post in the circumstances.
This action by the police is incredible in both what they did, how they did it and the ham fisted manner in which they have done it and tried to justify it.
Speaker Martin is an idiot for allowing police into the private offices of a sitting MP on a matter which is fundamentally political. There is no doubt what was leaked was political, it was not a security matter and as is pointed out similar to Wigram and Churchill.
It may indeed be true that no Labour minister was informed in advance though given that DC and Boris were this seems on the surface risible.
That someone asked Jacqui Smith is it ok if we raid and arrest Damian Green I very very much doubt. Even if they did whilst no Einstein I am reasonably sure her answer would have been: NO, have you taken leave of your senses or something very similar.
You may even think some bright spark at the police said don't ask or tell the government because that would cause a major political crisis but we have to tell DC and Boris ( Boris - MPA chair not Boris - Conservative Mayor, we know Boris isn't very good at compartmentalisation).
If it transpires even one Labour minister was informed in advance then this is not just a resigning matter for them - it is such a serious matter that the whole lot should resign and call an election instantly.
When even Tony Benn agrees with David Cameroon you know that someone has made an almightly mistake.
This was a disgrace.
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It looks as if mine is the latest in a long line, starting from 1:14pm, of >50 comments that are "waiting moderation". This seems to be the only place on the BBC where we can comment on Damian Green's arrest.
I'm surprised by your contribution to this debate surrounding this arrest, but I think your last sentence is the most telling,
"Damian Green's revelations may be on a rather less dramatic scale [sic. than Ralph Wigram's] but they raise real concerns about the capacity of parliamentarians to do their job."
This arrest, and allied media storm, comes at a convenient time for Labour, not only because Parliament has gone down, but reports relating to the Iraq "War" will also be carefully buried. The government is appealing against the information commissioner's order to release details of cabinet meetings that might show evidence of inadequate debate leading up to the invasion. Where is this reported on the BBC?
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75
Link in a previous post didn't work, so the one at 75 should be:
http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/2008/11/16/so-long-as-its-not-you-2/
Blog halfway
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Bit slow blogging on this Nick. No.10 a bit slow providing the copy?
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Come on do some moderating!
This is a joke!
Where is our right to use our taxpayer-funded website to discuss these issues of vital importance to our democracy?
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12. Yes, New World Order is beginning to upset some, not least Pakistanis in Bombay.
Think about it. Many ancient civilisations and cultures want to stay as they are and not be interfered with by the West.
Whatever you think they need they can speak and think for themselves but they see that right being taken from them.
Brown is so sinister and hell bent on this New World venture (by the way so is Obama and many others). Idealists in the extreme.
The police in acting so appallingly arresting Green are acting in a very dark manner too.
"Dark Forces are at work in this country".
It's called total control and its very insidious.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
I was in a position where I could've leaked information that would've blown a Tory minister's career for seriously misleading parliament "
And I'm Daffy Duck.
Please take your idiotic ego-massaging manure elsewhere.
Nobody here is interested.
We are more concerned in the erosion of the fabric of our society, than what you dreamt about last night.
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Ours is a country bereft of its historic freedoms and liberties.
The individual is increasingly seen as a hindrance to the advancement of a corrupted government.
They wish to hide from us what they do not want us to know and feed us what they want us to know through an ever-willing state broadcaster.
The curtailment of freedoms of speech was a step on the road to totalitarianism, the active prevention of public knowledge is the proverbial leap.
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and one more thing, out of curiosity, is there anyone on this blog who understands a word that Charles_E_Plonker says?!!
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This is a BIG story Nick, potential mis-use of power, Stasi tactics, Ministerial corruption (power corrupt, absolute power etc), proof that the draconian laws of recent years are not safe in the hands of lazy/desperate politians/police. This must result in a high profile sacking/resignation. Yet again the BBC (and the media in general) do the minimum and wait for the story to go away. Why?
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#17
So why didnt you do it Chas??
If there was a very clear case of public interest?
Your principles come at a price, do they?
You wouldnt happen to be Tariq Ghaffur in disguise would you?
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This won't do Nick. Your Ruth Turner comparison was nothing like this case - she was at the very heart of the cash for honours investigation (selling honours is totally against the law of the land) , following a complaint to the police by an MP.
This scandal is about a Home Office leak. Brown and those around him say they want to support whistle-blowers, but that's a load of mince! They are control freaks and don't want their ineptitude re immigration controls to be highlighted, hence this action to catch the whistle-blower through getting their hands on Damien Green's computer and files. It stinks to high heaven and sets a dangerous precedent. God forbid we give this Labour Government any more powers. We are already well on the way to a police state.
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You mods had better pull your fingers out. I've never seen so many bloggers waiting.
Nicks gone a bit too far this time.
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80 posts waiting for moderation
dear oh dear
How long does it take to read a post and click on accept?
Firstly they arresy an MP for telling the truth, and now we are censored on the website which WE pay for.
What a joke
We need to demonstrate against this government (I'm including BBC in this)
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17 What was he doing in your massage palour Charles?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
What is this country coming to, its the oppositions job to bring to light what the government is doing in our name or what they are trying to bury from the public, I cannot believe that the police acted without approval from cabinet level, if so then this cabinet minister should be sacked.
We are supposed to live in a democracy , but if the government is allowed to get away with this sort of actions we might as well close down parliament, because we will be no better than Russia were opposition is not tollerated.
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#17
I just think that sort of thing is a waste of space, and if people focused on the real issues of policy and MP's competence
Right-ho. Let's talk about competence.
If an MP doubled national debt in the most benign period of world history would you call him incompetent?
No? What if he was so full of himself that he declared he would end the economic cycle using the power of his mind alone would you call him deranged'. If instead of ending boom and bust he presided over the biggest housing boom and bust in UK history would you call him incompetent?
No? Okay. How about if his entire boom was achieved by borrowing 300bn quid and flooding it into the economy would you call him incompetent? If, during his reign of terror, folk took him at his word and borrowed themselves to the point where we are the most indebted nation not only in Europe but the entire know universe would you call him incompetent.
Wow. That is a high bar you have set there for incompetence.
Does Robert Mugabe clear the bar?
And if his big plan to get out of this hole of his own making was to double national debt on top of his initial doubling ie quadruple national debt what word would you use?
A) Incompetent
B) Deranged
C) Sociopath
D) All of the above
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Nick, you really disappoint me with this.
Green is a member of Parliament who has used normal and established methods to hold the state to account.
Turner was a behind the scenes character who was alleged to have facilitated corruption on a large scale and thus undermining the democratic heart of this nation.
The comparison is a non-starter.
What you should have raised, surely, is how on earth neither the Speaker, the Home Secretary or the Prime Minister knew that a senior MP was about to be nabbed by the rozzers for doing his job, even though said rozzers acted upon a complaint from the Cabinet.
Furthermore, why did the Met tell Boris and Dave, but not their boss, Jacqui?
The BBC coverage of this has been a shambles so far and you have obviously had to put something, anything our there to look like you are looking at it.
You've mised the mark by a mile Nick.
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Why did The Speaker agree to a MP's office being raided in the High Court of Parliament? This is all about our ancient freedoms vested in our MP's. I entirely agree with the outrage expressed by Tony Wedgwood Benn on this issue. Nick Robinson is missing this vital constitutional point with the quite unrelated No. 10 episode. Parliament is sovreign; if we lose that concept that we really are heading for the police state. What confidential matters relating to constituents were read or taken away as a result of this police search? It is an outrage.
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When one of Brown's poodle's MacShane admits this is an affront to democracy...
It's an gross affront to democracy.
Nick, I don't doubt that you value the ideals of the mother of all parliaments but your coverage is shameful.
There are unpaid bloggers and members of the public wanting to ask far more incisive and pertinent questions than this 'show' you've put up.
You are our man on the inside.
I think you have to choose who's side you are on.
Or are you afraid you'll lose 'privileged' status to government leaks and inside knowledge?
Or afraid of something else....
Is it because if they can arrest Green, they could arrest you too?
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."
Indeed, you mention Churchill.
In that leak, if Churchill had been arrested for leaking the RAF appraisal of German Luftwaffe firepower prior to WW2 into the public domain; we would never have won the Battle of Britain.
Chilling that thought, isn't it?
So CEH.... that's not just noise and smear or whatever your babbling obfuscated line of defence for the indefensible is...
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Nick,
I feel a little sorry for you. One day you write an article and are lambasted for being pro-Tory.
Next, you write another article and suddenly you are in the pay of the Labour Party.
An impossible position.
That said, it's hardly the most insightful piece of reporting on this incident.
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And now the story has disappeared from the front page of BBC News.
Pravda!
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Nick, you've really missed the point this time. This is an assault on a Member of Parliament, by an arm of the State. The Government's participation (or not, though this seems unlikely) must be made clear.
Comparison with some Number 10 aide is preposterous! MPs must be able to act in ways the Executive may not like in order to hold it to account; this is a direct assault on that principle.
Jeremy, Utrecht, Netherlands
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Parallels with this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nD7dbkkBIA
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Does anyone actually read Charles whatshisface posts? Just asking
Nick. There are a LOT of comments awaiting moderation. This is pretty scary, what are you waiting for?
I have sent all this to one of my good journalist friends in the USA and in Paris who long wanted to do a piece on the joke that this goverment is becoming.
In a way this is a total gift as this is undeniable. And yes I will use you as a sign that perhaps the broadcaster we all pay for, is unable to be unbiased about this.
Shocking.
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#17
You just can't help it can you? You start out all high minded, and being holier than thou, then out comes the bile, and the self justifying cant.
What is a mind that is closed to all thoughts others than those it already holds dear?
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Nick,
This is one of the most spineless blogs you have ever done! Comparing a corruption case, for that is what it was, with this really shows you are in the client media!
Opposition MPs have for a very long time, as long as I can remember and a long time before that, received leaks from within the civil service but have not been arrested; Brown and others spring to mind when they were harrying the dying Major Government. Yet, in Brown's Britain, it now happens, all with a disingenuous degree of acquiesence from the third estate, well the BBC bit at least. This is truly a dark day and you have no right to expect to be taken seriously as a result of such a pathetic piece.
I note nothing has been let through since 1.18pm, a delay of one hour 5 minutes, so I suspect you are getting quite a bit of stick, with which the moderators can not cope, and quite right too!
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24. Manendo: charles is in my opinion a log in that several people use. No one can post that much, or be up all hours (and be as irrelevant).
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Doesn't it seem a little odd?
I don't care which party an MP belongs to. But if he or she allows information to get into the public view, it seems to be what we elect them for.
I'd be really interested to know when the constabulary arrest journalists who receive leaked information about the Government's intentions in commercially important areas.
How is it that Peston could be aware of really critical stuff?
How come Pre-Budget Report information was all over the press before the Chancellor stood up in Westminster?
Some time ago, a Chancellor felt obliged to stand down, because he let something slip while he was on the way to make his budget speech in Parliament.
Nowadays, Ministers have no shame.
It's so hard to get them to consider the basic moralities that it is hardly real to question whether they give a good goddam about why, where and how they waste tax-payers' money...
After all, once they drift over the rim, they just sell themselves and "consult" to businesses who want a bit of access.
If the police have the time to send a mob to check out an MP, why don't they send a mob to stop serious crime? That doesn't mean big crime syndicates, it's the old-fashioned, serious crime like thuggery on our streets.
I didn't see any police action taken when Neil Kinnock sacked a whistle blower in the EU for telling the truth about abject failures of management.
Leaks - to selected participants, for deliberate use - was part of the Blair/Brown project. God knows it had an effect.
Funny that it seems to be coming back to bite them.
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Nick
What on earth are you playing at in trying to draw parallels between the Green, Churchill and Turner cases. There are no important similarities, as you must know.
This is bogus and detracts from the real and very important issue.
Turner was not an elected MP and was working for the Government of the day.
Green is an elected MP and is a member of HM Opposition.
Turner's activities were in support of the Government of the day.
Green's actions were aimed at challenging and exposing the Government of the day.
The interesting comparison between Churchill and Green doesn't lie in the similarities - both elected, both acting to expose and challenge the Government of the day - but in the big difference.
Green was subjected to arrest and searches of his home and political offices.
Churchill wasn't.
The other similar cases you could have cited are the many precedents involving MPs from all parties who put leaked information into the public domain (sometimes via your good self and other free press guardians of democracy) - not one of whom was arrested.
Tories may well be outraged but surely they are not alone in being very concerned at this sinister development ? Diane Abbot has already expressed concerns and I'm betting and hoping that she is not the only Labour MP who feels that way.
Next thing you know we will have the police using terrorism laws to arrest an old man for heckling a Government minister. Surely not ?
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My theory is that the police need some evidence to convict the whistleblowing civil servant.
They would not be able to justify getting a search warrant for Green's premises but by arresting him they can search without needing a warrant. Holding him for 9 hours would be to allow time for the police to carry out searches of the various locations without the MP having the possibility of destroying any evidence.
So the problem may be a general one of police falsely arresting people in order to carry out a "fishing" exercise to collect evidence.
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I was very suspicious of these kinds of paranoid conspiracy theories until George Bush declared a state of emergency and cancelled the US Presidential election. That was a real eye-opener.
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I guess with all these moderation were thinking the same thing. Nick Robinson may as well become the BBC Nu/Old Labour Secretary. Ruth turner was not a MP Nick and she was not arrested by anti terroist police. Guy don't worry come May 2010 people at the BBC best start to worry.
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Really? An arrest of a Government political aide on corruption charges is a precedent for arresting a Shadow Cabinet Minister for allegedly conspiring to leak Government documents that were in the public interest. I think you will need to work on the case for that one a bit more Nick.
You may also want to look at the political motivation element a bit more closely. I find it a bit hard to swallow that the metropolitan police would arrest a member of the Shadow Cabinet without some political coverage.
Finally, does this mean the arrest of all politicians for leaking?
I seem to remember a quote along the lines of 'the ship of state is unusual as it the only ship that leaks from the top'.
Apprpriate for this I feel and I look forward to seeing a member of Cabinet being arrested next time something favourable to the Government is leaked.
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Presumably you have been told, Nick, to say about Damian Greene that many in newlabour would like you to say that newlabour had someone arrested and now the tories have had someone arrested.
Don't you feel this is a rather weak argument?
Never mind the lack of convictions over the cash for peerages scandal. Let's focus on the fact that Tony Blair was the first prime minister not to have a resignation honours list.
Why do you think that is? Do you think that despite the lack of convictions of Blair, Lord Cashpoint, Ruth Turner and the rest that there would have been a public outcry about such a list?
Now, perhaps you should initiate a new post properly examing why exactly Damian Greene was arrested and why the entire government new nothing about it?
This is weak journalism spiked by newlabour spin. If it's the best they can do the great British public will just decide for themseves.
Call an election.
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This arrest draws no parallels at all. Either Nick is parotting the Government line or he wrote this without thinking.
Once again he is nailed by Cassius:
http://cassiuswrites.blogspot.com/2008/11/ruth-turner-damian-green-and-law-which.html
We ought to be getting really worried now.
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Pure coincidence that this happens on the day Sir Ian Blair steps down, or is it?
This is a sad day for British democracy when an MP can be arrested for doing his job. An explaination from the Government is over due!
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Outrageous!
Am I correct in the understanding that Michael Martin would need to give permission for the police to enter the Palace of Westminster and if so what does that say about his political allegiances.
If he or Jackie Smith knew in advance they surely have to go and fast.
John Burdett
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Wrong Nick.
We are talking about an attack on Parliamentary Democracy. Ruth Turner was questioned about alleged government corruption. She was not an MP.
Parliament is a court - ask Tony Benn to put you in the picture.
Come on! You think Gordon and Jacqui Smith didn't know Damian Greene was in the frame to be arrested? Boris says he knew. Cameron was forewarned, plus the speaker and the sergeant at arms.
For God's sake Nick, wake up to what that crowd in government are like? Dissect their weasley words. They knew what was going on, even if they didn't know the exact moment the arrest was about to, or had taken place. When will you learn never to believe the first thing you hear from a politician like Brown? THIS IS SERIOUS.
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Nick
I am curious as to why an event that seems to have such serious ramifications not only to Parliament but to the freedom of all of us seems to have been (so far) treated in such a low-key way by the BBC. Listening to John Pienaar on the radio last night relating the shock and indignation being felt throughout the House of Commons I thought this would be a major news story this morning. The producer of the 8 o'clock news on Radio 4 clearly didn't think so as following Mumbai we had a discussion on the lyrics of Eleanor Rigby. I am afraid I switched off in disgust at that point. Could it be that the BBC is still scared of the Government following their "humiliation" by Tony Blair for broadcasting the truth about Iraq? Even your blog seems somewhat "restrained" when there are so many fundamental questions involved. I really do hope you (and the BBC) have more to say on this matter and sooner rather than later.
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No Nick, it's not remotely like Ruth Turner's arrest. She was not an MP. Parliament is supposed to be the sovereign body and members have certain rights. Did the police really think that Damien Green would not have come in for questioning if they had asked? Perhaps they should have launched a dawn raid on Tony Blair then?
Heres a better parallel from recent history:
"Prime Minister John Major denied all knowledge of last night's police operation in which Robin Cook, Shadow Foreign Secretary, was arrested under a 300 year old law for receiving confidential Government documents.
The documents which were leaked to the press showed the Conservative Government knew that Coventry based Matrix Churchill were supplying arms to Iraq in contravention of UN arms embargoes."
There were leaks all over Major's government, were any of the Labour Shadow front bench arrested? No.
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So receiving leaked documents is a crime now? Or asking for a copy of a leaked document is now a crime?
Is there a political journalist in the country who isn't both outraged at Damien Green's arrest and terrified they'll be next?
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You just can't help yourself can you Nick,the brain washing must have been fantastic.
I trust you are now beavering away in the corridors of power delving and probing in an effort to find out what the government knew about this and who authorised it.
No, tea and buns with Mandy and Campbell ample reward for your weeks 'Good' work.
Awful,awful,awful.If it were possible for the contempt I now hold you in to increase any more it would,have you no shame or professional integrity ?
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Nick,
I used to respect your judgement but this analysis is so pathetically partisan-it stinks.
The BBC is now embarrassinly biased.
Tally Ho
Peter
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I think that the Tories are over egging this whole sorry affair. Both Labour and Tory have given in to demands by the police for more power and then complain when they excercise it.
Please learn something from this, rather than try and score political points. If the police ask for more power and governments give it, who is actually running the country? Are we not heading for a police state?
IMHO it is unquestionably wrong for a member of parliament to be arrested for trying to get the facts on any issue. This seems to me to be an abuse of power and a clear sign we have gone too far.
What do the Tories suggest we do about police powers should they ever get the priveledge of running this country again?
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Soon after New Labour came into power, one of their female members made a speech and I will always remember that she said, "Keep attacking the Tories". So after all these years - nothing has changed.
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Damian Green is an elected member of parliament. Ruth Turner was not. That's a big difference. What a ridiculous comparison.
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Has the Ralph Wigram case ever been proved ? I always thought that it was speculation and, in view of Wigram's early death, his reputation was respected.
The irony is that during the times of which you write Churchill was up to his knees in defying all sides by opposing Indian independence - eventually carried out in too much haste in 1947 and the subject of some adverse swipes in today's news.
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Call me a sceptic, but did a certain Labour supporting senior police officer who leaves office any day now, sacked apparently by a Conservative Mayor, have any say in this decision. As for Brown, Smith etc, of course they didn't know, how could they, they after all are the same motley crew who didn't see the economic crises coming ! Forgive me, but it has now got to the stage that I do not believe a single word that any member of this Government says.
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I seem to remember Tony Blair et al gaining political capital off leaks from civil servants in the Major Government.
Is this 'government' so worried that it has to behave like a mini version of an old style Communist bloc bureaucracy sending its Stasi secret police into parliament?
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96 comments unmonitored. Is this a record?
Are Mandelson and Draper too busy too answer the mods desperate calls for help?
Mr. Robinson, how can you seriously equate the arrest of an elected M.P. with the Ruth Turner episode?
Additionally, the use of Counter-Terrorism Police to raid an M.Ps House of Commons offices is surely a serious abuse of power.
What next? Brown saying the economic situation is so dire we cannot afford an election?
Time for you to do your job properly Mr. Robinson...or go and work for(and be paid by) the Labour Party spin machine!
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This is the best response to Nick's blog that I have so far read
http://cassiuswrites.blogspot.com/2008/11/ruth-turner-damian-green-and-law-which.html
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Has The Speaker no sense of history?
He has allowed the Executive to search the offices at Parliament of a member of The Commons for material which might prove incriminating in ongoing enquiries being made by that selfsame Executive into leaks of its own policy failures.
No Speaker he!
This is a violation of the independence of Parliament as much as King Charles I intervention to arrest Pym and his friends that helped to trigger the Civil War in 1642.
This is the very stuff of the constitution. Once Parliament returns the police officer who authorised this violation of the customs and practice of Parliament needs to be called to the Bar of the Commons to justify his decision and acts
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It seems to me that the Counter-Terrorism act needs a lot of detailed picking apart and re-working.
Iceland has already been mentioned. Wasn't there also a council which used it to justify spying on people to make sure they lived in specific school catchment areas?
Now we have nine (!) counter-terrorism officers being sent to arrest a member of the opposition and search his house seems to require considerable justification. Is Mr Green suspected of being a terrorist, or of having links to terrorist groups?
I suppose you could argue that he has assisted terrorist groups. After all, by exposing the government's incompetence with regard to illegal immigrants and forged documentation, he must have given considerable encouragement to anyone wanting to infiltrate the House of Commons or other government offices for nefarious purposes.
But what about Mr Peston's and other journalists' detailed knowledge of the contents of the PBR and many other financial matters? Unless they all possess a remarkably high degree of clairvoyance, surely these must have originated from the Treasury? (Which I now envisage as a large colander, draining a heap of over-boiled and slightly rotten cabbage (not leeks, far too obvious).) And didn't all of that potentially damage the UK and its interests rather more than anything Mr Green passed on? I don't know about Mr Osborne talking down the pound (although it actually went up the next day); knowing that the government was about to pour billions into the black hole of the UK's finances must have given a knock to Sterling's credibility. So are they all now expecting a knock on the door from the counter-terrorism officers?
Like Fensorient (comment 34), I feel that if Boris Johnson and Mr Cameron were informed beforehand, it's inconceivable that the Ministry of Justice at the very least would not have been told what was to happen.
I wouldn't like to think that the Act was designed to be used in this way, or that the police would let themselves be used for political purposes. But there's a slightly scary comparison of Mr Brown with Mr Mugabe on Guido Fawkes' blog.
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Nick
I am disoppointed in the parallels that you are trying to draw between the arrest of Ruth Turner and Damien Green
Ruth Turner was NOT elected, Ruth Tuurner was part of a clique at Downing Street hiding information from the public
Damien Green's crime is releasing information to the public that is of interest to us all
Shame on you
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Which is more worthy of being on the front page of the BBC news site?
A taxi strike in a Chinese city?
Or perhaps, an unprecented move by the New Labour stasi in arresting an elected member of parliament?
Guess which one is there, and which is not.
Long live Pravda
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Was an offence committed, or are there good grounds for arguing that an offence was committed? Did Green behave politically indiscreetly so that a further damaging embarrassment arises for the complacent Tory leadership? Who knew what? Was it a fit-up?
There are more questions than these including more pertinent questions no doubt. But whether Green is a bit like Churchill (no) and Ruth Turner is surely a bit feeble. Update a.s.a.p. Nick please!
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What is interesting is that even were it to turn out that Mr Green was selling secrets to the Russians nobody has any problem at all believing that this government would use any means necessary to crush an opposition MP who merely pointed out some embarrassing facts.
Or for the heinous crime of doing his job. Holding the government to account. Because we have prior evidence that this government does not wish to be held to account and will use any mal-worded legislation necessary to supress debate. And any rigged numbers necessary to deflect criticism.
The worst part of this is that the only guy who saw this coming and acted was David Davies. He resigned, no doubt expecting an avalanche of similarly outraged resignations from all political parties (particularly Labour) of people who felt that this anti-terror hell-storm of legislation would end in tears.
How wrong was he? Those Labour ex-student-activists-I-dislike-what-you-say-but-I'll-defend-your-right-to-say-it just revealed themselves to be Labour lobby fodder after all.
The Tories should now make it a manifesto commitment that on election they will arrest, without charge, every single Labour MP (if any are left) who voted for the 42 day legislation and hold them for the full 42 days.
That'll learn 'em.
Then, when they've had a taste of the 42 day treatment we can repeal the legislation. And plenty more.
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I am surprized at the admiration shown by most of your correspondents for folk like the late Sir Anthony Blunt. After all what was he but a leaker? Perhaps a little thought is not such a dangerous thing to calm political fanaticisms.
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Nick,
As I write this there are over 100 comments awaiting moderation.
You really do seem to have overdone the sychophantic toadying this time.
What a totally irrelevant and pointless article.
Pathetic Nick, absolutely pathetic
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Nick,
It is not good enough for Ministers to say it is a Police matter and they were not informed in advance. People are outraged. Are the PM and Home Secretary not concerned about unfettered Police intervention in Parliament over a Parliamentary and political matter? What are they doing about it?
If the answer is nothing, then it is in the public's interest to be made aware of this government's relaxed attitude to police control over Parliament whenever it suits their ploitical interests.
Heaven help us all.
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And finally the government's spokesman speaks!
Why did you bother with such a weak and lilly livered blog?
Some people decried David Davies earlier this year for standing up for a principle I hope they now hang their heads in shame.
I cannot believe that neither Sir Ian Blair, nor Jacqui Smith nor Gordon Brown new of this after all lots of others did.
We are sleep walking into a totalitarian state. I hope the gauleiters in the anti terrorist squad are happy with themselves for being used as a pawn of a despotic regime determined to cling on to power.
Yet the police wonder why they are held in contempt by so many?
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17 Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
"I was in a position where I could've leaked information that would've blown a Tory minister's career for seriously misleading parliament but Clive Ponting and the Official Secrets Act was ringing in my ears at the time so I chickened out even though there was a clear public interest. That minister's career was over and they got found out later but that's another thing.
This stuff the Tories are whining about is small beer. I see there's plenty of legitimate reasons to examine where the line between stuff that's kept confidential or not is re-examined, and how much MP's can actually use, as I'm not persuaded "freedom of information" as it stands is necessarily very helpful. Indeed, it can be counter-productive.
Instead of having a policy view or putting the hands up, the Tories are just grandstanding and fuelling outrage. I just think that sort of thing is a waste of space, and if people focused on the real issues of policy and MP's competence instead of trying to cheat and slime their way around the system we might all be better off."
Well. So much for your political and moral courage, Charles.
Ponting made an "ethical", but illegal decision. I applauded his action. But, under the law as it stood, he should have been jailed.
As mentioned previously, if an MP should not "leak" information, then how can budget information be freely released into the market?
How did Peston "know" details before they were announced to parliament?
It's fine to blame him for having an impact on the markets. But why weren't the people who allowed information to leak arrested?
Confidentiality is a norm of commercial - and political - life.
Try telling that to Mandelson and Campbell.
"Spin" has always been a part of political life.
Peddling a pack of lies just gets you deeper into the mucky stuff.
The "Master of the Universe" broke his local budget. So now he wants everybody else to screw up.
As Conan Doyle wrote... "Where do you hide a leaf? In a Forest."
If you can bury your poor management under a pile of other economies' bodies, you may imagine that everything has been forgotten. People don't have such short memories.
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Where in hell do you get the " similarities "? Leaking information that is politically embarrassing to Jaqui Smith by Damian Greene, and Ruth Turner being questioned on suspicion of corruption hardly come into the category of "similar". It also seems that a junior civil servant was arrested, questioned and suspended for passing on information which should have been public knowledge This was not an official state secret, but was being deliberately withheld from the public. Where are the shrieks of protest from the guardians of civil rights who masquerade as the civil service trade union ? This is typical of the way Nu Labour operates, underhanded and on the very edge of what is acceptable in a free society. Sadly I suspect that the views of the BBC seem to reflect the views of the Labour left more and more as the demise of this disgusting government becomes imminent.I trust that when we have a change of government the new administration will take a long hard look at the internal policy making of the BBC.
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gottwald wrote:
Has Nick never 'assisted' a leak? Are all political journalists to be arrested?
Of course not, all Nick's "leaks" are carefully controlled New Labour briefings. It is a way for the government to judge the opinion of the public before actually making a final decision.
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Sorry Nick, I guess you are trying to blur the real issue here. There is a huge difference between Green and Turenr - Green is an elected representative. Try concentrating on the real issue for a change
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I think it's probably a leaving gift to the Conservative party from a very bitter Ian Blair (backed by his Labour masters of course) for quite rightly kicking him out of office.
As for your 'insight' Nick - eh??? What the...???
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There are two conflicting principles involved here. Politicians should not be intimidated by the police into not doing their jobs, but on the other hand they should not be above the law and should be treated by the police in the same way as ordinary citizens. It is important, for example, that they should experience the effect of the draconian security laws that they may have voted for.
Until we know the nature of the police suspicions and the grounds they have for them, it is impossible to decide whether the police actions were justified.
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Instead of simply reporting the news, Nick seems more interested in justifying it. Arresting a politician for investigating the government (in other words, doing a good job) is totally unacceptable.
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And all this under the regime of Brown who wrote so movingly on 'Liberty' last year
The words come so easily to this philosopher-king, but it's by his deeds ...
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Surely you feel some shame posting this blog having checked the spin with Labour HQ.
Is it everything you ever wished for?
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Nick Read what you have written - do you really feel no shame?
I am sure you are being spun that the Govt knew nothing about it and it was all Sir Ian Blair but that does not ring true to most observers. The Govt is seeing if it can get away with something on a 'bury bad news' day and the BBC is being complicit.
Where will you be when they come for the Jews...or the independent journalists?
I don't think all your colleagues share your view on this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/
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Well, what a surprise to see the Labour immigration minister raise exactly the same comparison as Nick. I guess it saves time blogging when you can just cut and paste from an Alistair Campbell email
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27 Mandybroon
Well said Dennis MacShane.
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How can there possibly be a comparison; what was Ruth Turner doing that was in the public interest? What's happened to your reporting lately?
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Let's have some more Mandelson talk please.....
Or perhaps about Tony Blair's illegal war?
Or the cash for honours scandal which has been swept under the carpet?
The use of anti-terror legislation to remove an elderly man for dissenting with the party line?
Or do you really have no coglioni ?
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Robinson - this is disgraceful - to compare Green to Turner. It is the role of the opposition to stand upto government and reveal their inadequacies. If they don't who will? - this is the thin end of the wedge for me, and soon you will get all broadcasts monitored by the state, speaches by our dear leader televised daily or hourly, journalists TOLD WHAT TO SAY - that may seem familiar to some. DISGRACE.
We have to pay the TV tax for this twoddle.
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The Met are reported to have been acting on a "complaint from the Cabinet Office" and yet we have been asked to believe that neither the PM nor Ministers knew about it in advance. Any explanations?
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Surprisingly off-the point blog entry.
Possible contempt of parliament;
The extraordinary detail of anti-terrorist police being sent on a non-terrorist arrest - don't they have other pressing work?
The government badly caught out - if the government spokesmen are telling the truth then government politicians had no knowledge of a significant act by the police against an opposition politician despite opposition politicians being told. Whether the assurances are true or false, this is surely shocking.
And none of this is worthy of comment by a political editor?
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I am dissapointed that you take this view, it seems that there is real reason to suspect the BBC of political bios.
I believe that there is a question of an erosion freedon of Democracy in the arrest of this MP. It is in the public interest that issues such as immigration should be addesssed especially when a truth challanged government tries to suppress information.
God help us all if we do not have a free media to keep free speech and the counrty falling into a communist state.
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Shows how important this is to the BBC;
Have Your Say items-
Are you worried about a measles epidemic?
Is your garden a nature haven?
Can retail crisis be solved?
How can we tackle throw-away UK?
---------------
Where is the "Do we live in a Police State?"
question?
I don't suppose this comment will get through the Mods
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Will the real Nick Robinson please stand up? Very poor.
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A very weak posting from Nick Robinson. This is a blatant example of New Labour's increasingly successful effort to emasculate Parliament and we should all be concerned. The comparison with Ruth Turner is a red herring for reasons already expelained many times on this blog.
I am pleased to see Tony Benn and Denis McShane denounce this outrageous action and wonder why NR has failed to reflect their comments. He has also not asked about the role of Speaker Martin in this grubby episode; Mr Plod can't go flat-footing into Westminster for something like this without, at the very least, his acquiescence. Any why the Counter-terrorist police? Surely they are too busy searching people's wheelie-bins and arresting octagenarian hecklers.
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Something stinks here and the stench is coming from the Labour side I reckon. We know how shady they are and have been in the past, look at the fiasco with lost data and leaving things on trains what were the police doing then apart from looking for them with their torches?
No minister knew what was happening come of it, if this is the case is Brown gonna start asking questions about the police action... I doubt it do you?
So, just what is there that they don't want us to know about, what great hush hush is there - your a journalist Nick isn't it your job to find out or just to report as ordered!
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Isn't this is tantamount to a constitutional crisis as this action by the Police is a gross breach of parliament’s supremacy.
Police Officers who represent the Crown have been allowed to enter Parliament unopposed to raid a MP’s office.
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As my wife said last night "If the police can do that to a spokesman of HM's Opposition, what hope have the rest of us got?"
At least in the death throws of Major's Government there was a sensible Chancellor at the financial helm and the long term health of the UK was an important consideration. By contrast this Government is thrashing around as its life blood ebbs away, seemingly indifferent to the damage it is inflicting upon our finances, civil liberties, morality and social cohesion. The New Labour project has created a low for British politics, which now seems to be a model for the two major opposition parties. I just hope the Tories have the courage to roll back some of the changes when in power, the most fundamental of which is the politicisation of the Civil Service. I have depressingly low expectation though.
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Absolutely PATHETIC! This drivel is what the BBC political correspondent comes up with?
I used to defend the broadcasting licence as a necessary evil. This rubbish is the final straw. Get rid of the fee, get rid of the BBC.
A leading opposition MP is arrested by anti-terrorism police for gaining access to potentially embarrassing information for the government and this is your response?
Why hadn't Gordon Brown and Jaqui Smith resigned in disgrace before lunch?
When Jaqui Smith was asked if this was acceptable police behaviour her response was something like "I believe in an independant police force". The correct, and only, answer was "NO!".
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48 Magic_2-10
Brown won't have told a lie on this. Not in the strict sense of the word anyway.
He will have "plausible deniability" over the issue.
Brown will have given a carefully worded statement to someone that "the police should use their maximum powers to investigate and hunt out the mole and people receiving information".
He would have then relied on the system to make sure the hint got passed on by someone, probably a junior minister, to ensure the police acted.
Unless we are expected to believe that one day, the police woke up and didn't like what they read in Hansard. They then, off their own backs, decided to drop the murder investigation and knock on Damian Green's door.
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Why all this analysis? Surely you only need to link it to Ian Blair's last day.
Isn't this simply his way of saying "Get Stuffed"?
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Pravda's idea of front page news....
"Taxi drivers have gone on strike in the southern city of Chaozhou, the latest in a wave of protests across China.
Drivers say they are angry that nothing has been done about unlicensed cabs operating in their city.
The industrial action follows strikes in other cities that turned violent before officials bowed to irate drivers' demands."
Get a grip, BBC. I know it's about striking reds, which seems to be your cup of tea, but not one person in this country gives a proverbial about this.
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This latest WHEEZE has PROVED OUR
WHOLE WAY OF LIFE IS AT RISK.
Gordy's GANG is rotten to the CORE.
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How you can arrest an opposition MP for doing his job?
As for Gordon Brown saying he didn't know, well I believe that as much as I believed his limpwristed explanation for not holding an election last year.
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Are the police about to arrest Brown and Darling for widely leaking the Pre-Budget Report over the weekend? Are the reporters who reported it to be locked up?
It is beyond belief that the PM and Home Secretary weren't informed by the police of their intentions. If anyone thinks otherwise then they are very gullible.
Green has only made public information that we as voters have a democratic right to know. If the government wasn't so intent on criminally covering up their own incompetence then there would be no need for leaks.
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Here are tonights Results
Boris Johnson United 1
Ian Blair City 1
(Late Equaliser in time added on)
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An hour of comment moderation. What exactly gives? Someone from the BBC - indeed, whoever is responsible for moderating comments - please explain the delay.
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Since when was it any part of the role of the Metropolitan Police or of the counter terrorism division to act as the Labour government's Geheimegedankpolitzei - the secret thought police? Will not liking Big Brother become an official, imprisonable offence in the next round of legislation?
Can't the kakistocrats who pose as the government even begin to understand that "1984" was written as a political satire rather than a handbook on how to remove our liberties?
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/
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In Nick's defence the Ruth women was more a point on what the Labour MPs thought which is comparable to what the Tory MPs think of this.
Appart from the that it's a wee bit rubbish...
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I take it that Sir David Normanton will be up before the commons committee ASAP to explain his actions as will the head of the anti terrorist squad?
It is clear that the speaker needs to be asked two questions.
1) Did he know about the search at parliament? If not why not?
2) If he did know why did he allow it to take place?
Heads will have to roll over this. If he comes up with the wrong answers then the speaker must be the first and either the Head of the anti terrorist squad or Jacqui Smith as the second because one of them had held parliament in contempt.
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The arrest is astonishing. The Met or Govt Ministers or both have taken leave of their senses. This is more writing on the wall telling us it's getting very late to rein in the power of the state.
Nothing to fear from ID cards? Pull the other one.
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Why weren't the cops arresting Anjem Choudhary who was publicly supporting these brutal murderers in Mumbai?
They are anti-terrorist cops. Not anti-parliamentary-opposition cops.
Something is seriously wrong in our government.
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This may have been said before, or is stacked up in the pile awaiting moderation, but I thought we had a Freedom of Information Act and all that Damian Green has put in the public domain should have been there anyway.
And 63:
Mr Benn is a true democrat whose knowledge of the parliamentary rules is second to none.
Oh yes 62:
If I remember rightly, the Tory policy on immigration, or at least part of it, was taken up by this government.
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Dear Civil Servants,
If you are shocked at the governments mismanagement of the country and wary of their Stasi attitudes but still want to alert the public - then don't worry.
Follow this link - there are multiple ways to do this securely and anonymously if you follow this link:
Secure Whistle Blowing
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Has it ever crossed any of the mainly anti brown bloggers minds that:
A. Mr Green might be guilty of something.
and/or
B. The government had nothing to do with the arrest and it was entirely non politically motivated.
I'm not saying this is the case but are you willing to give it the slightest chance?
Surely there is a realistic chance of the above as opposed to the semi-hysterical 1984 police state theories being bandied around. At least we need to learn the full facts first.
Perhaps I am being to naive?
ps I maybe completely wrong and the thought-police are currently monitoring my brain waves.
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Nick.... just post a red rose at the top of this page.
Ruth Turner was a Downing Street aid.
Green is a leading member of the opposition.
Fine you clearly support the government. No problem. Its what we expect from the Beeb you are after all public sector.
I just think you should support democracy first.
How about asking some searching questions instead of simply seeking to negate the governments position.
How about drawing a comparison with Brown and Blair and all the leaks that they benefited from when in opposition.
After all who benefits more from these leaks than the likes of you?
Have you ever tried to solicit official secrets nick... you know ask about the contents of a budget before the official announcement?
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I'm going to have to write a letter to Mark Byford about this, Nick.
The BBC should be reporting things as they are - not as the Peter Mandleson would like them to be!
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Ubelievable.
Ably assisted by Auntie's mod's who probably have the AT Branch's finest sitting at their shoulders reviewing every single blog entry for suspected sedition whilst devouring box after box of Krispy Kreme's, the Labour apologists are still trying to spin their way out of it with their class obsessed hatred.
Its not going to work this time. If he was guilty of an offence, regardless of how antiquated the law used may have been (Malfeasance in Public Office?), they should have charged him. End Of.
I find it highly disturbing that within 6 months of the Police being given the pay rise that they were on the verge of striking for last year, that suddenly they appear to be on the verge of being Gordo's Private Militia. Despite the fact that they are completely bereft of leadership and their senior officers are too busy playing "me too" politics or suing each other for claims of racism that can be bought off with half a million pounds of public money... unbeleivable.
Come on Charles, balhamu et al. I've not seen one convincing explanation yet.
Oh, and Chas.. "See it from a software developers perspective"... As anyone who has worked with developers will know, You cannot expect to be taken seriously...
Labour have manipulated the media with a skill not seen since Sinn Fein in the early 1970's. And they have done it for the best part of a decade. The problem is, for you guys, eventually the scales will fall from the eyes of the proles and you'll be seen for what you really are.
Manipulation of Terror legislation to arrest political opponents... I was beginning to think it was sensationalist, but now I'm not so sure. We really arent so far removed from Mugabe. That is shocking.
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Nick
First the Guardian (which I copied above), now the Times and Independent also both doing their jobs properly. See below:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5251363.ece
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/green-prosecution-unlikely-to-succeed-says-lawyer-1039711.html
Your blog above is farcical. Why don't you get it when your colleagues at three Labour supporting (as of the last election) national newspapers do?
The BBC is supposed to be the best, most incisive, balanced news source in the country. If you can't even do as well as your commercial rivals, what is the point?
And, yes, I am absolutely up in arms about this as it goes to the core of our democracy. It's not just the usual politcal cant.
PS I voted Labour, but not this time.
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What a cowardly post. The BBC is even more mealy-mouthed than the Guardian over this.
You pay scant attention to the most important point, well put by the Conservatives, and by Tony Benn: Green is an MP.
In arresting him, the police are attacking parliament, and in attacking parliament, they are attacking us.
Anti-terror officers spent nine hours questioning Green; they searched his office, and his computer - which means they have had access to private correspondence between Green and his constituents. They froze his email account, which means his constituents could not reach him.
And your response is this vague meandering journey through the history of the leak from Green to Churchill.
You say: There are plenty of people who believe that Green...is unlikely to ever face successful charges.
No, Green won't face charges. Even the UK police wouldn't dare let a judge and jury loose on this one. The aim was to intimidate him, and to intimidate other MPs.
Of course, as this article shows, the police don't have to bother intimidating the BBC. You're already on message.
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there can be no comparison between the two- this just shows not just how much contempt the idiot Brown has for the public ( which we have all known for a long time) but for the House of Commons too
and you call yourself a journalist Nick- you should be ashamed
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This is the very first time I have ever posted a comment on a blog. It has taken Nick Robinsons blatant labour bias to bring me to this. I fear the BBC will pay for this in the end.
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Nick, embarrassingly you seem to have been very slow on picking this story up, and then shockingly you fall for the Government line on the Police arrest . You can't seem to distinguish between an elected Member of Parliament upholding the right to expose the Government of the day to account, and a criminal investigation of the Executive into corruption. The two cases are completely different. You really are too close to the people you suppsed to report and your ignorance is breathtaking.
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Ooh CEH has got his trigger finger on the refer button again....
What a sad individual....mind you he probably gets a lot of taxpayers' money for this non-job trolling internet forums to promote the government.
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I was to forced to read 'memoirs of a fox hunting man' in school by a poet who fought for freedom that no longer exisits, fox hunting illegal, no freedom of speech, be careful what you tape, copy, finger print the entire blinkin population, ban smoking in pubs now lock up the opposition as well - it was such a relief when they lost all that data - a totalitarian state has to control everything and this lot have shown they can't control anything - in which case locking up the opposition is the best plan
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Per Nick
There are plenty of people who believe that Green like Turner is unlikely to ever face successful charges, and there are plenty of parliamentarians who see another parallel with Churchill. He of course relied on a foreign office mole Ralph Wigram to tell him of the failure to prepare to stand up to the Nazi threat. Damian Green's revelations may be on a rather less dramatic scale but they raise real concerns about the capacity of parliamentarians to do their job.
It's easy to leap to the conclusion that Nick's report is biased, but take the time to study the content and import of the last sentence which immediately succeeds the reference to Churchill's reliance on Wigram to get at the facts, and you could conclude that he is making a strong case that the action by the police was anti Parliament.
Where the blog fails is in its superficiality. There may be legal reasons for that.
Also a bit difficult for him to write that Brown/Smith must have been aware before the event with no evidence to support the statement. The Labour Party and the Beeb have a bit of history - Gilligan
Personally I believe they must have known, but I'm not writing a BBC blog.
Still, all this has got us off the real topic - and that is that the PBR forecasts are not worth the paper they are printed on, and that this Country is going down the financial pan. The PBR represents a far bigger lie (because it affects all of us) than the Green incident.
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I'm very disappointed at Nick's analysis of a fundamental attack on our democratic process. There is no comparison with the Ruth Turner case. If I send confidential material to my MP, it is for me to take responsibility and face any charges. It is the MP's proper role to use their judgment on whether to use the information, and parliament's - not the police or a court's role - to decide whether the MP has properly exercised his judgement.
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Nick, I really think you should consider your position. Your efforts to gloss over what is a very serious event are simply outrageous. To make some feeble effort to compare it to the 'Cash for Honours' arrests is just laughable. Cash for honours was a government accused of selling honours in order to fund their own political party. Damian Green was exposing issues in government to which the public have every right to know. You are starting to lose all credibility now.
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Nick or to any serious political journalist
Perhaps you might like to ask why...
•The November 2007 revelation that the home secretary knew the Security Industry Authority had granted licences to 5,000 illegal workers, but decided not to publicise it.
•The February 2008 news that an illegal immigrant had been employed as a cleaner in the House of Commons.
•A whips' list of potential Labour rebels in the vote on plans to increase the pre-charge terror detention limit to 42 days.
•A letter from the home secretary warning that a recession could lead to a rise in crime.
Should all be kept from the people in the first place.
Perhaps you might even think about why a whips list of labour rebles on the vote on 42 days is even being considered a government matter...
One would think it was a part matter...... No??
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Arrest a Tory and cover up bad economic news such as this in the FT:
UK and Italy struggle to entice investors
By David Oakley
Published: November 27 2008 18:15 | Last updated: November 27 2008 18:15
The UK and Italy struggled to sell bonds on Thursday in a fresh sign of the difficulties governments are facing because of the debt needed for economic stimulus packages and bank recapitalisations.
The two bond auctions saw both governments forced to pay higher yields to attract investors and Italy scaled back the amount on offer.
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I find Gordon Browns comment that he knew nothing about the arrest before the fact straight out of a fairytale book. I certainly think Wacki Jacqui was possibly the motivator as it has her fingerprints all over it in the sense that she has absolutely no regard for due process, freedom of speech or basic human rights.
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Nick Robinson is very shrewd.
He depends on leaks from Westminster and Whitehall, so deliberately hasn't said much and left us to do it all for him.
I think we've done quite a good job, so far, to help him out...
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This just emphasizes the fact that we are in a police state, more and more people are beginning to realize this.
In one way it is a good thing, that more of the electorate are waking up to what is going on.
The big question is, at what point will the British public say enough is enough?
Probably only when tesco's run out of food is my guess.
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Oh for goodness sake. Why all this hype?
It was only from 1992 that we knew how many illegal immigrants were entering UK, or the number of asylum seekers, or the number of people outside the EEC working in UK.
We didn’t even have freedom of information act, which the Tories are all against.
As for crime, only cases that made it to the courts were recorded, which is only a small percentage of what is recoded today. Why?
Besides, did we know that Thatcher was preparing to introduce the Poll Tax and that 99% of her MPs were against? or that she was going to maim protesters and sweep them with horse mounted police?
Looks like the Tories are trying to cling to any tiny hair that they can get hold of to try and rescue themselves from an embarrassing looming defeat!
I now have my doubts about the loss of data of Government Personnel and other private individuals. To wilfully LOOSE personal data when strict security regulations are adhered to - sic!
I now have serious doubts who is behind all this!
Good night Nick.
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Arrest a Tory and bury bad news such as the stinging attack on Gordon Brown's FSA by the Investment Management Association concerning the Lehmans collapse.
FSA critiscised
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With so many in the censorship queue it is hardly worth my time commenting. However.
This act was OUTRAGEOUS, Cromwellian and a step too far. It has the fingerprints of a particular member of the Cabinet all over it and the sooner his influence comes to light the better for all of us.
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Years ago this investigation would have been under section 2 of the Official Secrets Act 1911 which applied to virtually all information. However the Official Secrets Act 1989 deliberately narrowed the categories of information subject to criminal sanctions down to intelligence, defence and relations with foreign governments. The view of Parliament was that leaking other government information should not be a criminal offence.
It's interesting argument that the common law offence of misconduct in public office can apply to alleged acts that Parliament has decided should not be criminal.
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Nick
I am starting to wonder if your blog is nothing more than a No 10 briefing.
I cannot think of any other reason why you would tie the two incidents together.
Does political power now lie with parliament or the Anti Terrorist Police? Who will they pick up tomorrow; it could be you Nick if you disclose a leak. Poor old "Bobby Pesto" must be quaking in his boots.
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Combine this with:
a) Detention without trial
b) Removing trial by jury
c) Identity cards
We've gone to hell in a hand cart and I think your post has underestimated seriousnes of this matter
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I find it unbelievable that as the police rad parliament the head of the same police force states that the law should be changed to stop a politician forcing him to resign.
Well to me this means one thing, a police state, backed by a fascist like government.
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Nick's analysis begins with the words 'Tory Outrage'. Correct, but deep concern has been expressed by politicians of all parties. Forget for a moment (if possible) that this is a Labour Government and a Tory MP. Then one question is, under what circumstances can an opposition MP leak details of Government mis-management and cover-up into the public domain? I would suggest when it is in the public interest to know, when it does not endanger national security, and when it does not reveal highly confidential personal information (and of course ministerial incompetence is not confidential information).
Let's suspend disbelief for a moment, and assume that the Government is honest and that no one in Government knew what was happening. Then the arrest was the responsibility of the police acting on information provided by civil servants. It is deeply disturbing that our elected MPs (of whatever political party) can be arrested for providing information that most people would agree is in the interests of the public to know.
MPs are not above the law, but when they are acting politically they are in a special position because they are our elected representatives. Any arrest of an MP should require pre-approval by a judge. The police should only enter Parliament to provide safety, e.g. from a terrorist incident, properly defined. Documents should be removed from Parliament without the prior approval of a judge, and the circumstances under which this is allowed should be closely defined.
I hope that enough backbench Labour MPs will unite with opposition MPs to establish the truth of this deeply disturbing incident. I didn't hear Tony Benn this lunchtime, but I understand he articulated this concern very well.
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Bill@56
"I'm amazed that our self-styled Prime Minister Elect believes that using leaks is an essential part of democracy."
Why are you amazed now? The Great Leader did the same, only more so.
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Charlie Boy @17 said..
"I was in a position where I could've leaked information that would've blown a Tory minister's career for seriously misleading parliament but Clive Ponting and the Official Secrets Act was ringing in my ears at the time so I chickened out even though there was a clear public interest"
Charlie..I (and most others here) don't believe a word you say.
Have you signed The Official Secrets Act?
Have you ever worked in Government?
Does video game development now comprise the stuff of destroying a Cabinet Members career?
Were you really worried that the Anti Terrorist Squad was going to come in and bang you up?
Come on...if the Tories are whinging on about nothing, then you have nothing to hide by answering these simple questions...
I'm not going to lose any sleep over what will surely be a deafening silence from you.
You really have no credibility ,Charles.
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Sorry Nick but this is absolutely pitiful. There have been masses of comments on here with far more substance than your attempted damage limitation for Labour. In no way does this 'draw parallels' - as others have pointed out Damian Green was simply an Opposition MP doing his job in the public interest, Ruth Turner was a civil servant accused of covering up the scandalous sale of peerages by the Labour party. Nor have you covered Tony Benn's comments about the police being in comtempt of parliament.
It's pretty obvious you've laboured long and hard to try and take the least damaging to Labour line but what a dreadful betrayal of the British people and all those who fund the BBC via the license. The once greatly respected BBC has now gained a reputation for absolutely blatant bias.
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an appalling blog to compare one of blairs hired help to a serving m p who has been detained by terrorist officers for informing the country of more labour failures,we are seeing things happening in this country that relate to an old soviet eastern block country,and this is the best a political editor of the so called imartial bbc can produce,a disgrace in a democracy
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#118
I read every CEH posting.
They are invariably hilarious and every one a candidate for Pseuds Corner. Keep up the good work Charles! You provide much need levity in these difficult times!
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Pathetic, anyone with a brain cell can see this for what it is, except for all the pc handwringing lefty's of course...
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Blimey - seems that a lot of bloggers are keen to make everything personal these days.
Either political leaders, ministers, journalists or anyone else who doesn't agree with them.
It's good to see alternative viewpoints raised on this site. We can get the mainstream news from TV.
Whether or not I agree with your views Nick, I will enjoy debating them with you rather than attacking your ability to do your job.
As for the topic - the police can surely do their job. It came to nothing, but they have the right to investigate as long as they've done due diligence.
It's infantile to point the finger at Brown/Smith.
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WHY IS THIS NEWS ITEM NOT ON THE MAIN UK NEWS PAGE. THIS IS A MAJOR ATTACK ON CIVIL LIBERTIES AND NEEDS TO BE HIGHLIGHTED.
HOW CAN IT BE COMPARED TO CASH FOR HONOURS. YES IT MIGHT BE REVENGE ON BEHALF OF THE LABOUR PARTY, BUT THIS IS MUCH MORE SIGNIFICANT.
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So it transpires that Sir David Normington, the top civil servant at the Home Office is to be Gordon Brown's fall guy for this one.
So the arrest is said to pertain to leaks in November 2007, February 2008, the leaked list of Labour rebels on the 42 days vote and a letter from the home secretary warning that a recession could lead to a rise in crime.
How handy that the arrest comes just as the press have woken up and started attacking Gordon brown over his mismanagement of the economy!!!!!!!!!
BBC Website link
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This blog reminds me of Lloyd George's comment about the House of Lords during the fierst liberal government of the 20th century as they tried to get basic national insurance and pensions through.
He described them as Mr Balfour's poodle. Nick it is clear that you are Gordon Brown's poodle.
You jump when called, bark at and bite those your master tells you to.
You should be ashamed!
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Nick
Why bother with writing this blog? It surely would be much easier for you just to let Mandy do it. There would be no need to wait then until the angle has been decided by NuLab, Mandy could give it to us first hand and avoid the need for an intermediary such as yourself.
You are becoming a laughing stock Nick.
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The parallel with Turner is staggeringly inept. Her arrest was part of an (unproven) investigation in to corruption. The arrest of Green for holding information simply to shut up government opponents goes against centuries of British democracy.
It seems we now have a Banana Republic police force and political system to go with our Banana Republic economy.
What amazes me is that so many left leaning writers here (and I regard myself as very much left of centre) seem to think this is ok. In a different time and place they would have made great Stasi informers.
Don't mess with democracy
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Surprised that you've been as obvious as this, Nick. Linking two different cases together looks like desperation to me. The thin veneer has now come off. The Civil War was fought on issues such as these for goodness sake!!
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I'm astounded that the police are involved in this in the first place. Outside the Westminster Village, this would be an internal disciplinary matter. A civil lawsuit at the most.
That said, it always delights me when a Tory (whose party frequently spouts rhetoric such as "tough on crime" and "zero tolerance") complains that the police are being too tough with them.
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UNBELIEVABLE!!!!
I was never sure of Nicks true colours but but now its abundantly clear.
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This is the first time I've seen a blog where practically all the comments are in agreement! This is really shocking news and a reality check. Nick's silence (or absolute failure to point out the obvious) and lame attempt to divert attention speaks volume.
The country is outraged and so they should be!
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Nick
I think the following might be the important issues:
1. It is a convention that Ministers do not lie to Parliament. Indeed it is an offence to call an MP a liar in the Chamber.
2. Thus, when clear evidence of lying, dissembling, call it what you will emerges, surely the convention must go out of the window and Michael Martin must be dragged FROM his chair (suitably opposite behaviour to his first actions as Speaker, eh?) if he prevents Opposition MPs from disregarding the convention on such occasions.
3. It must in future be the case that ANY CASE OF THIS KIND must be addressed in camera by an ALL PARTY GROUP OF BOTH COMMONERS AND LORDS, in order that no political interference can be seen to be taking place. Do not talk to me about Govt secrecy. In such cases, secrecy goes out the window. This one is NOT national security. NO debate.
4. A new code of conduct for the Prime Minister and his Cabinet must be drawn up in this case and there must be clear actions designated for the resignation column and others in the resignation from Parliament and public life column.
We are starting to see the true Brown emerge. The dictator. Have you looked at his eyes recently? A coldness. A ruthlessness. A lack of concern for democracy. A smug, self-satisfied grin.
Do you think we should be worried by that?
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Following Labour's Stasi like actions and the BBC's Pravda like accusations - it is worth remembering Pravda's impression of Brown's Britain on their web-site at the moment:
"Quite simply, as the UK sinks into the deepest reaches of an Orwellian Police State, where the government tracks every car on the autobahns, every phone call, all Internet usage and even has council members rummaging through people's dust bins before the rubbish is picked up, and all the while their own industry is pushed off to third world nations"
Pravda on Brown's Britain
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Surely the key points are:
If the police didn't tell Sir David Norrington, who engaged them, that they were going to raid/arrest a senior MP, then they should have done so. And the senior police person should resign - except that he just did.
If they did, and Norrington didn't tell a minister, then he should have done so, and he should now resign.
Perhaps what is actually going on here is a battle for control of the Met. Boris Johnson apparently was told in advance and, if he thinks he is in charge, then he should have told them not to do it.
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Nick,
Don't you understand the function of a journalist? If you simply write down whatever spin you think will not upset the Labour Party, THERE IS SIMPLY NO POINT TO YOU AT ALL?
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This is all a bit weird and strange. The police tactics are understandable and would be the same for any raid. Mr Cameron's suggestion of doing it all "by appointment" is crazy.
However, I am not sure I like the thought of this MP being arrested at all given the fact that surely he is supposed to find out stuff which the Government doesn't want us to know. He is on the Opposition benches.
However, Denis Macshane's comments have annoyed me the most. About police not recognising MP's "status" - all equal in the eyes of the law in this country my friend. This was the most unpalatable quote of the day for me.
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#201
B. The government had nothing to do with the arrest and it was entirely non politically motivated.
I'm not saying this is the case but are you willing to give it the slightest chance?
Surely there is a realistic chance of the above
Nope. You have to consider previous form. If this kind of behaviour was a one-off aberation then you'd be inclined to look on it as a cock-up.
But if it helps you to sleep at night to believe that this governments motives are pure then go right ahead. Mandelson is known as 'The Prince of Darkness' for a good reason.
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As soon as the Tories face being accountable to the law like the rest of us out crawls the usual bunch of Tory 'shock and horror' whingers complaining about police states and freedom of speech. They insult the British public's intelligence. If 'Sneaky' is given five years they will be cross!
And to think I thought Nick Robinson had Tory leanings and most policemen were either in the Masons or voted Tory!
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From the BBC article:
Sir David Normington, the top civil servant at the Home Office, said he had taken the decision to ask for police help in identifying the source of a series of "leaks of sensitive information over an extended period," which he said "risked undermining the effective operation of my department".
So there you have it - the reason the Home Office is "not fit for purpose" is because of all the leaks! Odd really as I thought it was because it was staffed by a bunch of idiots.
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The outrage of politicians and instaneous use of this incident to launch political attacks will find little sympathy with the common people.
To those who have been threatened with criminal action for having their bin lids higher than the required amount or been persued by civil servants who use terrorism laws to spy on children to find out which school they should go to, the "outrage" of MP's show how far they are from the realities of life.
Should Mr Green have been arrested? No of course not, but in the same way thousands of normal law abiding folk shouldn't be criminalised for petty offences, but we don't see MP's expressing their united outrage then, only when one of their own is caught in the machine.
I'm surprised everyone is having a go at the speaker, or rather maybe I'm not surprised, certain factions have wanted him out for a while, but as far as I know the Met does not report to him, so how can he be responsible for sanctioning the raid?
If the police have overstepped their legal boundaries then surely it is they that are at fault?
If they haven't overstepped their legal obligation to investigate a crime, then perhaps the MP's should stop being "outraged" and either abide by the law, or change it, that latter option is at least available to them if not the common people, and I'm sure we'll see it used, especially when one of their own is affected.
In this country we like to believe we live in a democracy, but the increasing powers of police and officials to interfer in our lives, proves this isn't the case, hopefully MPs will look at the wider issue of mis-use of official powers, and not just limit it to their own interests.
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I have worked in Downing Street in the past and I was and am appalled at how new Labour have deluded themselves into thinking that this kind of action is right.
We are supposed to live in a LIBERAL democracy, but many of these new Labour politicians - not all but most - are almost anti-Liberal.
How about we give a party with Liberal in their name a chance to run the country, then we can perhaps all sleep easier in our beds.
This is like the Stasi.
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I have sufficient faith in our police that they will have done what they think is right according to the law. I am surprised that the Conservative leadership thinks it is ok to knock them in the way drunk or speeding drivers complain that 'they should be out catching criminals instead'. I also have no problem with MPs being treated in the same way as the rest of us. And let us not forget that official secrets regulations, while they can be misused, also allow government to do their job. Today it's embarrassing, tomorrow it could be leaking dangerous stuff. As always, if he did nothing wrong, he has nothing to worry about.
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I find this whole affair extremely frightning. I would like to know why he was arrested for airing something which, in my opinion, is of import for the public to know when Labour MP's/government employees can lose/leave sensitive information about UK residents and not lose their jobs. As usual it's one rule for Labour and another for the rest of us.
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Are Government ministers also going to be arrested when they deliberately leak stories themselves?
The journalists know who the leakers are! Are they going to be arrested too?
It seems we are only allowed to hear what this government wants to tell us.
This is a very bad day for democracy.
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Another gem from "toenails" Robinson.
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It is too early for informed comment.
If the police have reason to suspect anyone has conspired to obtain confidential information, to which they are not entitled access they have a duty to investigate.
The method of their investigations are also bound by rules that ultimately can be challenged in court.
If the suspect is an MP it is crucial that a Government minister or the Speaker of the House of Commons neither gives or with holds approval for an investigation to take place.
It is reasonable to expect the police to act with decorum when they search and ultimately they need to justify, to a properly accountable body, their reason for carrying out an investigation in the way it is carried out.
In my experience it was not unusual for police to act mob handedly when more might be achieved by an invitation to meet, however, if they have reason to suspect that unless they act mob handedly evidence will be compromised, then they need to act mob handedly.
It seems to me that an authoritative public statement needs to be made by a senior police officer to demonstrate that the police are acting appropriately and to state the methods that can be used for objections to be made.
I am also aware of an inner wheel of justice where decisions are made out of the site of the public. So it is good that there is much public awareness and interest in what is happening,although as an MP's behaviour is involved, at this point ,I do not think much should be made of MPs complaints.
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I understand the delay in Nicks comments was due to his toenails taking a little while to migrate the final inch or so into Labours' back passage.
Shameful post Nick.
As to Nick's blatant bias, here's his bosses take:
"Many thanks for your comments about the Daily Politics programme on 12 November.
I do not believe that Nick Robinson, in any way, questioned David Cameron's sincerity or right to raise the issue of Baby P and certainly he did not suggest that David Cameron had played politics with the case of Baby P. Rather he said David Cameron clearly felt passionately about the case but, also, may have been relieved to have avoided a debate about the economy given the comments of the Governor of the Bank of England that day backing a fiscal stimulus.
It is of course impossible to know what is in any politician's mind when making a statement. However, one of Nick's roles is to analyse the motivation and calculations of politicians and he often has to do that at very short notice, as on this occasion with his interview on Daily Politics.
Yours Sincerely
Robbie Gibb,
Editor, Daily Politics"
Didn't answer the point I was making and is very much a stock reply.
CEH - you still haven't responed to my posts at #24 and #640 on the previous blog. This leads to several possibilities:
1: what I posted was true and you haven't the guts to answer
2: you hope I'll let this drop - I won't
If we don't get an answer I think most bloogers would take it that 1) is the case.
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201 My-Pet-Dragon
"Perhaps I am being to naive?"
Yes.
Labour still need you to turn up and vote for them though. They like to prey on people like you.
Remember - Gordon Brown has shown a ruthless track record:
1. He plotted against and removed an elected Prime Minister
2. Upon gaining 'power' he has not put himself before the public for election
3. He presented as positive, what turned out to be a 10p tax on the poor.
4. He lies to the public to protect his position and to cling to power "no I didn't say an end to boom and bust"
5. He spent billions of pounds of tax payers money to try and buy the Crewe and Nantwich By-election.
There are many other examples out there....... have a look for yourself.......
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212. Fredalo:
I think you have it very right in your analysis - if you have an open mind the meaning is clear to see in what had to be a very carefully worded piece. Irrespective of future outcome currently it is an ongoing police investigation.
Most posters had decided Nick would be biased even before he had typed the first word, this is just par for the course.
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Though the incidents in Bombay are attrocious, isn't it coincidental that this happened during a monumental world story. A good day to bury bad news - to coin a phrase?
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Dear moderators,
why don;t you post a short note explaining why there are likely to be delays on this topic.
e.g.
Sorry for delays in publishing - due to the volume and nature of this story extra care is being taken in moderation for posters and the BBC's own legal protection.
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Calm down people! We are not in a police state!!
In times of terror there will always be increased state intervention in our lives.
You cant on the one hand expect the gov to tackle terror and then cause massive outcry when they arrest (not imprison, beat, intimidate, stone, shoot, dismember) someone to protect the national interest. He is now free.
Am I the only person who feels this way?
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Oh come you lot, lets be honest here, if the Tories were in power and Labour had access to leaked documents, the protests etc would be the same but reversed.
They're all at it, so don't give me all that whiter than white Tory nonsense or for that matter whiter than white Labour nonsense.
As for all the talk of gestapo, hitler etc, as I've told you at least a trillion times,
Don't Exaggerate.
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I think Nick's blog is fine but would have been improved if he had said something to the effect that, at this point there is insufficient information available to make any substantive comments.
Additionally it may have been helpful for him to add the reminder that there are legal restrictions on what can be said, in view of there being an ongoing police investigation.
However, no one, least of all me is perfect.
Now lets get back to considering issues we can take action about to improve our human state, like reducing our carbon emissions and aiding those living in worse conditions than us!
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Nick,
surely when the PM tells us that he was not told in advance, that is the very problem.
When cahncellor he was never to be found during a crisis or a difficult period
In this case surely he should have been told or is everything now so out of control that they thought it better not to disturb him.
Of course he wasn't told, then he can say nobody told me, this is bizarre behaviour. Same with the Home Secretary, you can't just go around arresting people like this. This is as I have said before tell me nothing so I know nothing. Again just like the Germans I don't want to know. This is terrible.
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Accepting a document that is leaked through conscience is part and parcel of the political scene and I would suggest morally acceptable. If Green accepted documents from a whistle blower, at the whistle blowers behest, then there is no problem. The whistle blower would also have a degree of legal protection.
Trying to instigate or encourage a leak is a completely different affair. If done by a foreign national it is espionage, done by a politician it is encouraging an employee to break not only the terms and conditions of their employment, but also potentially the Official Secrets Act.
If Green tried to coerce a leak, encouraged an individual to leak a document, or worse to find a document they did not usually have access to, then that is neither morally acceptable or legal. If you sign the OSA you accept the limitations of it. If you cannot work to these rules don’t sign it or accept the job.
Conscience I can accept, political pressure or worse greed I cannot.
Before we cry Police state, if they were investigating the leak (as an independent agency) and suspected the latter explanation, they were obliged to follow this up. If there was undue pressure on them from Government we would of heard this by now as anyone who remembers the police led leaks of previous high profile investigations will know.
If, and for the sake of politics in this country I hope this is true, Green merely reacted to information offered, then I wish him well and long may it continue. If he tried to coerce, or directly asked for a leak then I hope he is charged and resigns, as I would object to paying his wages..
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Nick,
If you're looking for a damn theme then try this:
Labour Party activist arrested for heckling Jack Straw at conference: arrested using the ANTI-TERRORISM legislation
Iceland finances go into melt down: assets frozen under the ANTI-TERRORISM legislation
MP trying to hold the government to account: arrested using the ANTI-TERRORISM legislation
None of them are terrorists. It's called an ABUSE OF POWER. And that's why people were against those laws in the first place.
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An opposition MP has been arrested by the police for 'conspiracy' to tell the public that the government aren't doing their job - and the BBC has removed the story from the front page.
Why?
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At least all the fuss may cause people to stop and think "If they can arrest and hold an MP for 9 hours what will they do to me?"
After all this is the government that wants to hold people for up to42 days while they (the authorities) think about or try to find something that they (the prisoner) may or may not have thought about doing.
At the end of the day Mr Green should take solace in the oft quoted "If you got nothing to hide you got nothing to fear"
One other thought what will be done with Mr. Green's DNA? Will it be kept indefinately on record? I ask because it has been suggested that an MP's and other selected people's (???) information is considered to sensitive to be held on the propsed National Database and ID Card Scheme Register.
Grundlewood
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This report is definately a 'Friday Afternooner'. Couldn't wait to get home eh Nick? Or is it your turn to the the Fish n' Chip run?
There is little or no comparison with Turner and Green for the reasons i can't b............. oh it's home time!
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You want to see where the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 is leading
Read this
Hands up who thinks it was designed for this.
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#266
Bit of a GB type response there Charles. Maybe not American but are you British? Have you ever voted in a General Election in the UK.
Not to difficult to answer is it....
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My comment #2 is the "unbiased blog" Nick should have wrote isn't it?
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Its time to reel in police powers on matters like this and start pointing them at Crime
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Well this is it folks!
Then 'they' wonder why we are not happy bunnies, when the politicians and the police work together against the rest of us!
Most of the BBC staff are biased towards who ever is in power, after the Blair fiasco and the sackings etc!
The next sure thing is that we, as a country, will become bankrupt after all this crazy 'political' borrowing!
Perhaps Damian Green was about to tell all and that would have created mayhem in Parliament!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please sign the online petition to Gordon Brown... then please pass it on!?http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/HMRPathfinder/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Naughty moderators fueling the conspiracy theorists' fires. Every entry from 233 until 283 awaiting moderation at 16:15, apart from entry 266, by non other than CEH.
Usually really enjoy your writing Nick, as well as your appearances in the Daily Politics. I've seen you being accused of having a tory bias and I've heard you being accused of regurgitating Labour spin.
I don't honestly think you are guilty of either charge, but this is truly terrible journalism. You are now funded by the tax payer. You said after Iraq that: "It was my job to report what those in power were doing or thinking." Now you aren't even doing that.
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Nick
Good to see there is cross party condemnation of the way this matter has been handled.
What a shame the Home Secretary has failed to see it in the same light. As usual she remains remote and driven by party antagonism.
Any reasonable person would have at least expressed some degree of sympathy towards a colleague having been put through the sort of ordeal suffered by Damian Green.
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#254 MORTONEAST
As soon as the Tories face being accountable to the law like the rest of us out crawls the usual bunch of Tory 'shock and horror' whingers complaining about police states and freedom of speech. They insult the British public's intelligence. If 'Sneaky' is given five years they will be cross!
And to think I thought Nick Robinson had Tory leanings and most policemen were either in the Masons or voted Tory!
Get your facts right and then please wake up and smell the coffee...!!
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I'm sure the police knew that this would draw huge media coverage, so they would have been careful to act within the law, they knew they'd take criticism.
What upsets me the most is the way that MPs across all parties are behaving. My impression is that they consider themselves above the law and that being arrested is only for 'little people' - not for the nobility such as themselves.
Their loudest complaint seems to be that this is "against tradition". Terrifying - they are more concerned that us peasants aren't showing them enough due deference than a criminal investigation is properly pursued.
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Dangerous when the police become an extension of the ruling political party - anaemic coverage and reporting by the BBC. No MP should be arrested for disclosing information unless national security is put at risk which does not seem to be the case here.
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Sorry, Nick, but that's a spineless response to an appalling act of authoritarianism. The use of 'anti-terrorist' police to suppress political dissidence is a chilling echo of Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia.
To pick up on just one point, it's not only "Tory outrage". MP's of all parties have denounced this breach of democratic principles.
As a lifelong socialist, I shall be voting for whichever party looks most likely to unseat this Government at this next election - assuming there is one...
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Nick Robinson,
For a political editor of the BBC - that is embarrassing copy.
Is this really the angle you come at this story from - let's try and make it party neutral.
As a natural labour supporter, I used to chuckle at all of the snide comments people made about your brown-nosing (oun intended).
Now I can begin to see why. Are you on holiday and had a spare couple of minutes to bang up any old coverage?
What a poor reporter - very poor.
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Nick, even post- Kelly you ought to be doing better than trying to parallel Turner and Green. The cases are entirely different.
The bare facts and abrogation of historical precedent of MPs using such leaked information should be alarming to you. But when new Labour has such compelling form-the Railtrack memos about the timing of releasing bad news, raiding Norman Baker MP (whilst he was writing his Kelly book), the Keogh (Bush-Blair memo) case, the Sally Murer (Khan bugging) case, the increasing use of language casting aspersions on the patriotism of those who disagree with its economic policies (a la United Russia Party), we have to be at the very least suspicious of both motive and the integrity of what Smith and Brown might say in response.
We note the timing-Mumbai, cabinet in Leeds, it’s Friday, Ian Blair's last day...oh dear, they should really be using our money for guidance seminars from experts in these arts from Chile, Argentina or Eastern Europe.
Watching the pictures of piles of documents being removed from Green's home and office, can any constituent now feel as though their correspondence with their elected representative is safe from scrutiny or retribution?
Has Parliamentary privilege been suspended in the interest of national unity?
Can we assume that the Speaker of Parliament agreed to the searches at Westminster?
Can we not all see the words by your erstwhile colleague Peter Oborne in his books about the malevolent spite at the heart of New Labour to be correct?
As a correspondent on the State broadcaster, you, Nick and your naïf colleagues will have been trained in language aimed at reassuring us: nothing to be alarmed about, just routine, be trusting in your leaders for they know best, this won't happen to you. You do indeed do this very well as we heard during the Georgia crisis when BBC plied the NATO line so eloquently, but if you can't be a proper journalist on an issue of this magnitude, none of us will want to believe you on much else.
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I really am unimpressed with your response to this, Nick.
Has the BBC decided to just concentrate on using their money creating bland rubbish like 'Strictly...' (as well as paying large amounts of our cash to naughty boys who like telephone pranks, of course)!
Have they just given up on quality news reporting?
That the gold standard of international news broadcasting should be reduced to this just shows how messed up the BBC now is.
This development is serious (and that's coming from someone in favour of a compulsory DNA database) - democracy itself has been attacked. I expect you in the BBC to treat this with the gravity it deserves.
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So thanks Nick for trying to ratchet this up to something bigger than the cash for questions issue. That had real questions for the running of Government with a whiff of fraud about it. This is merely a MP doing his job - Yes the action was way over the top and terrorism laws are being used for the wrong purposes again (see Iceland for details). However the plus side is that there is little or no chance of the holding without charge being extended.
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@307
They've only fast tracked Charles_E_Plonkers posts because they are as clueless as the rest of us as to what on earth he is talking about!!
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Charles @297...
"About my having been in a position to leak and force a ministerial resignation: yes, it's true. But, there were legal and practical issues, and I have no interest in creating the impression that I'm a blabbermouth: nobody would ever trust me again."
Perhaps Charles you could broadly outline the legal and practical issues for us? Of course,nobody would want you to disclose anything that might contravene the OSA.
As to your final concern about trust...you have no need to worry on that count...
Enough said.
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The government says it knew nothing about and it was a matter for the police. But so what? Surely, this is confirmation that the police state is too powerful and that individual rights have been eroded too much. It shows that we need to roll back the new laws this government has made in the name of counter-terrorism.
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First the Stasi arrest Green.
The Pravda do some bias reporting.
Now the "One Man Blog Rebuttal Unit" is in action censoring comments by referring them to the mods.
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Did you report any of these stories, if so you could be an accessory after the fact. Watch out for the dawn raid!
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Sorry Nick - I have reread your posting and quite frankly I think you have started down the wrong line with this story. Time to put a few more grey cells into it please this is afterall democracy we are talking about rather than corruption at the heart of Government.
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PS There is no mention of this operation on the Kent Police website news section. Only live TV footage so far shown was of boxes of documents being rmeoved at a Kent location. That's unusual for the arrest of a public figure.
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Will you lot stop criticising the author who gave you the opportunity to comment?
Are you democratic as long as you have your say, or antidemocratic not to accept other people's opinion?
You are the same people who think that Britain was the most democratic place on earth.
Give us a break will you!!
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281. Hobbehod
Your forgot to add
DETAINING DISABLED CHILDREN
TO HARASS PROTESTERS
STOP AND SEARCH
Time to reel em in
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I agree with those who think that we are becoming a police state, but I think the reason for this has not been fully discussed.
Essentially, I think that government may be making preparations for the civil unrest that could follow an economic catastrophe. The financial market crisis is now spilling over into the 'real' economy of retailing, manufacturing and services; unemployment is rising rapidly; tax revenue is nose-diving; and government finances are shot to pieces.
In this context, preparations for civil unrest are logical, but it is all deeply worrying. I hope we get a different government at the next election. And I hope we get a next election.....
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Is it me, or does our friend Nick seem completely out of touch?
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#297
I think you have been afforded elevated (or at least preferred) postings status. On the previous blog I was moderated for quoting your disgraceful rant about (euphemistically) the psychological status of DC and the moral standing of the Tory Party. I tried twice to post this, explaining the second time it was merely a quotation from your post, but to no avail. Eventually your post was removed, but not before you had been through the Moderators and had your views on-line for several hours.
Are you by any chance receiving First Amendment rights by proxy?
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271. My-Pet-dragon wrote
Read article at 287 and you tell us...
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As others have said this was an opposition doing exactly what the state purse pays him to do, namely to hold the Government to account and to expose them when they are seeking to inappropriately withhold information from the nation and then arresting him for doing his constitutional duty.
In contrast the BBC announcements by Robert Peston on Northern Rock, Bradford & Bingley nationalisation Lloyds takeover of HBOS, the Government’s announcement of the intention to recapitalise the banks, followed by Friday’s accurate account of what the Chancellor was going to say on Monday in the PBS were all predicted with an accuracy which cannot be explained by clairvoyance. Clearly someone in Government or the Treasury was leaking information to Robert ahead of Government statements and Robert was putting this information in the public domain, which leaves me with three questions.
1. Do you believe the fact that the Government wanted the information leaked by Robert means that he has a greater or lesser mandate than that of an opposition politician who is simply doing what we pay him to do.
2. If he does not have a greater mandate then do you feel that Robert should receive a home visit from the counter terrorism branch?
3. If you and you colleagues at the BBC believe that had a greater mandate, then do you think that the BBC should be renamed Pravda.
FINALLY, CAN THE BBC PLEASE REDRESS THE BALANCE BY TELEVISING A PROGRAM IN WHICH TONY BENN AND WILLIAM HAGUE DISCUSS THE CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES.
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Nick, you miss the point.
The arrest is a blatant attempt by a lame government to silence its critics.
The government claims that leaks can damage the government's ability to run the country effectively, inhibiting the open discussion of issues. Having trailed the PBR headlines so blatantly, such a claim is outragous.
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Trying to instigate or encourage a leak is a completely different affair. If done by a foreign national it is espionage, done by a politician it is encouraging an employee to break not only the terms and conditions of their employment, but also potentially the Official Secrets Act.
There has to be a defence of justification if something is being concealed for which it is not in the public interest to be concealed.
This is the Churchill position which Nick helpfully recalls, that was not tested in court!
(Shame, it is not possible to preview comments, as on other BBC MB's?)
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290. balhamu
Yeah... your the epitome of unbiasedness
;-)
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# 263
I got exactly the same reply to my compaint about the Dail Politics piece - word for word. It's definitely a stock email.
As with you, it did not address the point of my complaint.
As regrads this blog, Nick is again engaged in displacement activity, trying to take the spotlight away from the Government. Ruth Turner's case is not similar to Damien Green, she was not an MP engaged in official work and was interviewed in relation to "Cash for Honours", not whistleblowing.
John Normington, the Permanent Secretary of the Home Office who apparently brought in the police in to hound an MP who dared to publish embarassing information, should be summoned by the Speaker for contempt of Parliament.
No chance of that, though.
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I'd be interested to see a graph of the number of people joining the Conservative party each month, mapped against an annotated timeline of Labour outrages.
I joined the Conservatives this summer as a response to the 42 days monstrosity.
I have noticed there have been a few people on the blog over the last couple of days who have said they joined the Conservatives because of the arrest of Green.
I wonder if people are more motivated to join the Conservatives when Labour infringe on basic civil liberties, rather than issues of total incompetence, such as the destruction of the economy and meltdown of our nations financial security?
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Gordon Brown should be worried by the arrest of Mr Green.
It is fairly clear that no one (apart from a couple of people who post here and a Mr N. Robinson) believes his protestations that he was neither involved in nor informed prior to, the arrest taking place.
His personal credibility is now much lower than even Tony Blair's was, and that is not a good position to be in if you are planning to go to the polls (most likely) within a year.
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Ruth Turner was not an elected Member of Parliament.
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Oh! Please Mr Robinson, give your audience credit for just an ounce of common sense.
If Eric Morecombe were alive today he would have you sitting on his knee with his hand up your jacket. Sadly he his long gone but you have surely found another comedian to work you, Mandy has his fingerprints all over your shirt.
Your comments regarding Ruth Turner and cash for robes as a comparison, are pure fiction and a diversion, they have the Spin Masters signature all over them.
Furthermore anyone who believes that Cameron, Boris and the Speaker knew but not Brown, Mandy or Smith, is to say the least, halfway up the Yellow Brick Road.
I have never heard or read such rubbish. The people of this country have a real problem, not only are we Governed by people who wouldn't recognise the truth if it smacked them in the teeth but we have to rely upon commentators like you whose judgement and reporting totally misinforms us.
You above all should understand Luke 8-17 "For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open"
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Its pretty obvious that at this early stage of the investigation Nick can't publish much cutting analysis as the facts have not been established.
Your average blogger on hear won't be happy until he has personally accused GB of being the founding member of the New World Order, son of Judas, Guy of Gisbourne and Crown King of the Lizard people.
I'm sure in the next few days Nick will come back with a more detailed blog as he has more facts to go on.
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Nick, Your blog is a damn disgrace. There is not Tory outrage it is cross bench this is an attack on democracy. There is considerable outrage and concern that this Home Office and this police force are downright dangerous.
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If ever there was a doubt that Nick Robinson is a Labour sympathiser his blog on the arrest of Mr Green is definitely the 'smoking gun'. How could one compare the 'cash for honours' scandal with obtaining sensitive information from the present Stalinist government!
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Surely Gordon Borwn and Alastair Darling are about to be arrested for leaking seriously market sensitive information before the PBR? That was far more serious than anything on this list and totally coordinated.
I think this is a going away present from Sir Ian Blair. It has his hallmarks: heavy handed, incompetent and counterproductive.
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The general opinion of this action is pretty clear by the lack of any calls for Damian Green to consider his position.
Even the Labour Government are keeping quite on that point - perhaps they are fearful they have already overstepped the line.
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I think the number of comments and (almost) unanimous agreement on this blog is indicative of public feeling about the arrest of Damian Green.
Previously I've only read this blog but can no longer contain my anger and contempt for our so called government.
I'd also like to congratulate the moderators on a job well done, they have toed the party line magnificently. Even a collection of phrases that in no way break the house rules are unacceptable in police state UK...
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listening to R4 PM, Eddie Mair
"after the news we'll be talking with 4 MPs provided they haven't been arrested"
priceless,
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#336 jonathancook
Interesting choice.
The Conservative/Labour argument on 42-days is somewhat cosmetic - they both believe that a significant period of locking alleged terrorists up without trial is necessary. For political reasons, Labour want to appear tough on terror (they're not bleeding heart liberals you know) and Conservatives appear not quite so tough on terror (they're not the nasty party any more). But it is largely cosmetic.
If this is a point of principle (i.e. civil liberties don't justify more than one day or so arrest without charge), why not join the Lib Dems.
BTW is actual Conservative Party membership up? Would be interested to see figures - big achievement for Cameron if this is true, and if he is being successful at replacing the older generation of Conservatives
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The excessive misuse of the anti terrorism laws will eventually water it down and be less effective than it's original intended use.
If I were Damian Green I would be asking questions about what may have been left behind following the raids i.e bugging equipment, surely, this is no longer as ridicules as it sounds.
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# 303 mgaved
But of course - just look back to the furore over MP's expenses.
Of course they think that the normal rules of behaviour don't apply to them.
Well said sport.
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The infantile response to the arrest of Mr Green from the ex-spin docter, and Bullingdon Kid - with links to the palace - now leading the Tories, is interesting to say the least. The police were responding to a complaint about criminal activity. Is it now the policy of the Tories to claim that their members are not required to live within the Rule of Law?
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Stalingrad, Beangrad, Stalingrad
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Nick, there are other parallels too. See the story on the BBCs own website here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7750669.stm
The stoy of a journalist arrested for supposedly publishing information the authorities would like to keep quiet.
With more vauge "catch-all" laws being made and more so-called anti-terrorist laws being made and then abused whats your take things?
What are anti-terrorist Police doing raiding the home of an MP? How were anti-terrorist laws used against Icelendic Banks? Why was a heckler ejected from the Labour Party conference using anti-terrorist laws?
Now say that David Davies was wrong to highlight the creeping demolition of civil liberties.
The home secretary says she wasn't involved and didn't know and that she values the independance of the Police. So just who is in control of the Police then?
Does Parliamentary Privilege count for nothing then? Will the Police start rounding up more members of Parliament that release embarrasing information?
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A few postings have questioned why we should be particularly concerned that it is an MP that was arrested rather than an ordinary member of the public.
Good point, and we should certainly be concerned about the civil liberties of anyone arrested, especially under legislation that is vague and imprecise.
However, MPs are not only private individuals, but also our public representatives. They have political responsibilities, holding the Government to account, and representing their constituents. They must be allowed to carry out these duties without fear of arrest. When an MP speaks in Parliament he is protected from laws of libel. The arrest of Damian Green in discharge of his duties is an affront to the people who elected him (whereas of course if an MP was arrested for selling honours or receiving bribes it would be a different matter).
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Did you get Polly Toynbee or Dolly Draper to write this for you? Here we have the worst abuse of power I can remember and all you have to say is it's OK because it happened to Labour too. The two cases are nothing alike. Anti terror officers carted off a member of the opposition and raided parliament, if you can't find anything worthwhile to say about something this serious maybe it's time you made way for someone who will.
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NICK
The biggest story of the last week as never even been reported, The tsunami of opinion......... political that is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V8979VFQF8
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# 336 jonathan_cook
The problem with advancing age is that one remembers what the Tories actually did to civil liberties when in office.
You probably don't remember Section 28 and the homophobic poison it generated towards lesbians and gay men, and all to garner the bigot vote.
Hope you don't live to regret aligning yourself to the Tories.
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I had this removed because it was 'off topic' apparently:
"Derek Draper and the boys don't like it up 'em.
A lot of comments being referred to moderators today.
So little time and so much to suppress........"
Thus to make sure it is on topic I'll add a few more lines:
Suppression seems to be the order of the day doesn't it?
Brown seems to want to suppress the public knowing the facts about government mismanagement at the Home Office.
Also he seems to want to suppress bad news, such as his destruction of the UK's financial position, by arresting a Tory and creating a nice diverting news blanket.
New Labour. New ways of suppressing the people.
Let's be thankfull we have people like Damian Green working to expose this crooked government.
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A quick review of the blog shows Nick receiving a lot of critisiam. Completely justifind in my mind. This is a far more serious matter that the seedy courption of the cash for honours affair. Here we have an oposition polition being arrested and held for nion hours becaus he was involved int he publication of facts which embarased the gonvenment. Those are the bare facts of the case irrespective of how the Gonvenment dresses it up. If they were not directly involoved they are responsible for createin a climate whre the police and civil service feel thyey can behave like this, which is just as bad.
This sort of thing MUST not happen in our democrarcy. I am amazed and shocked that it has.
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what has happened does not surprise me in the least. I am a long standing member of the Labour Party and constantly complain about our internal party democracy. A party that pays the scantess of lip service to its own rule book, to my mind leaves itself wide open to the suggestion that it might govern in a similar vain.
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Like nearly everybody else, I am very disappointed with this poor analysis and weak comparison with an unrelated case.
This is looking like an extraordinary attack on on our Parliamentary and democratic process, a scandal that could become a watershed in our political history. The BBC's response thus far seems hopelessly supine.
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Are the police accountable to anybody or can they simply do what they want? What is going on? An MP is arrested for doing his job - in Britain?
Surely the media should be a bit more concerned about what is happening. It is simply outrageous but alas the logical extension of what this labour government has been doing with civil liberties - ID cards, surveillance, detention without charge, etc, etc.
If journalists had any vision or courage they would be campaigning about the changing relationship between the state and the citizen which is frankly alarming. However, I can see no such campaign and so the trend is set to continue.
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Jonathan,
More on the Conservative Membership figures.
Difficult to get anything from the Electoral Commission website on this (apparently it is there). Maybe the Conservative website could also shed some light on it?
This - I have to say probably biased - report on LabourHome suggests that Conservative membership is in decline.
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I agree with view that Robinson is a spineless toad, but what surprises me most is that the head mandarin at the Home Office is on record as claiming to have called in the police to help him maintain discipline in his department, and to have done so without discussing his planned action with the relevant minister. I don't believe it.
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Nick,
Your commentary goes beyond party bias on this occasion. Do you really understand the severity of what has happened?
It is an outrage that a member of HM Opposition should be arrested - except perhaps in the case of an emergency where national security was at stake - something clearly not the case here.
It is mystifying that no government minister admits to prior knowledge. Are we to believe that the police would be sent in on a politically sensitive matter without the knowledge of the Home Office?
If true, why has the Prime Minister not called his cabinet, starting with the Home Secretary to account for not bringing this to their attention?
Nick, as chief political correspondent for a publicly funded and accountable state broadcaster (in theory), it is your duty to ask questions that get to the truth - not to gloss over it.
You have compounded a sad day in parliamentary democracy into a sad day for your personal integrity and the BBC.
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What is the position now for journalists who publish these alleged leaks?
Are we going to see members of the press arrested every time something embarrassing for the government is published?
What happens when ministers themselves leak stories?
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# 346 I_Despise_Labour
Given your User ID your anger and contempt don't exactly come as a shock. LOLOL
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If Mr. Speaker wasn't a time served Labour lackey, he might stand up for the rights of MPs and declare that all information in the public interest, passed by whistle blowers to MPs, is protected by Parliamentary Privilege. This protection should also apply to the whistle blowers and of course MPs.
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Brown waited so long for power that he will not want to give it up. Now he's had a taste of it and is strutting around blaming everyone except himself for the UK economy, he believes he now has a mandate to govern.
All opposition will be suppressed. Those unhappy with policy, who may want to leak information, are now warned off by the ZanuNuLab Stasi and their supporters.
Be afraid, be very afraid. We are becoming a police state and only NuLab supporters don't care.
Nick is obviously too scared to report any differently. He must toe the party line or else!
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The "similarities" with Green and Ruth Turner were made on the Jeremy Vine radio show today by George Foulkes MP (in a very aggressive fashion, I have to say). So at least we know where Nick gets his information.
Meanwhile, let's look at what is NOT similar:
1. Damian Green is an MP, Ruth Turner was not.
2. Cash-for-honours is a capital crime, "misbehaviour in an office" is not.
3. Both Lord Levy and Tony Blair were each questioned more than once in conncetion with cash-for-honours, but the police did not feel the need to arrest Tony Blair. No such faviours for Damian Green.
4. Since it was Nick, and other journalists, were the ones that conveyed the story - and therefore the ones that actually informed the public - will they be questioned too?
5. Journalists demands the right to protect their sources, so how is this so different?
It is going to be tough for Nick to give the Tories a kicking on this one and get away with it.
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348 Balhamu
You know - I could agree to 42 days if someone could give some credible evidence that it was absolutely necessary and explain very clearly how it will work simply, without impacting your every day citizen. As it is I'm not persuaded.
At the time I thought Brown was shameful trying to force through the legislation. It seemed like he was being macho and trying to prove his political virility rather than giving us workable legislation that we actually needed.
The Conservatives are a better bet to back rather than the Lib Dems (if primarily you want removal of Gordon Brown). The Conservatives also make more sense to me than the Liberals do. Lembit Opic - no thanks.
I have no idea if Conservative membership is up. It would be interesting to see.
Since I joined the Conservatives I've received a lot of letters and invites to things. Not been to any though! When it gets around to the election I'll probably donate some money to help them fight the election. I can't see me going around knocking on peoples door or any of that sort of thing.
As you know I've had enough of Gordon Brown. Once he's removed I'll probably settle back down again and get diverted by my normal past times instead......
Given the "one-trick-wonder" is referring people to moderators if they don't write something "on topic" I have to finish this e-mail by saying that it is a disgrace that Damian Green was arrested!
Have a good weekend.
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So lots of people believe that Labour politicians thought it would be a good idea to arrest a shadow front bench spokesman? I believe they are hopping mad, what possible benefit could they get from it and is it worth the fallout?
There is a major problem which goes to the heart of the civil service and how this country is run. I do believe that civil servants should be able to become whistleblowers if it is in the public interest. There were a few examples of whistleblowing on a BBC website this morning. First of all 5000 illegal immigrants passed by a government agency as being suitable to work in the security industry. Allegedly supressed by the Home Secretary. I can see there is a public interest (inept handling by the HS too!) But Labour Party whips have got a hit list of Labour MPs who might not support the government over the 42 day rule? Party poltical interest, but I cannot see it as major public interest - arm twisting goes on all the time. But who decides what is in the public interest? Any disgruntled or well meaning Civil Servant? The problem is that if ministers feel they cannot trust their Civil Servants, they will turn to their 'political advisors'or consultants, groups which I trust less to help run the country than Civil Servants.
Now we can go along the lines that the government decides what is in the public interest - that would be a bad move. Or we can leave it to the police and the courts. I feel the issue is too big to be decided by point scoring by poltical parties. After the next election there will be another party in power and there will come a time when they don't want information published and a Civil Servant will feel it is their responsibility to leak.
One point I am clear on. It is the Civil Servant's decision to leak and they should not be encouraged to do so by anyone seeking purely political advantage.
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Nick is it true that the BBC is paying its staff bonuses based on the amount of traffic their blog receives?
This would certainly explain why you stories are so provocatavely pro the most hated man in britain.
I beleive Toynbee uses the same principal in her writing, for the same reason.
ps. Oleg/Mandy - any update?
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Whistling_Neil wrote:
listening to R4 PM, Eddie Mair
"after the news we'll be talking with 4 MPs provided they haven't been arrested"
priceless,
--------------------------------------------
How long before the anti-terror police call on Mr Mair, I wonder?
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Nick, I'm afraid I agree with the majority of the comments made already. You have failed to reflect the public sentiment on this issue.
Damien Green's arrest is nothing less than an outrage.
If Gordon Brown has any respect left for democracy he should be making heads roll over this. But I fear that won't happen.
UK democracy
d. 28 November 2008
R.I.P
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Brown & Smith claim they had no knowledge.
I don't believe it and no-one with an IQ greater than 1 believes it either.
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censorship? what censorship? about 300 comments on here accusing labour of being either big brother, Nazi communists, mind reading aliens etc.
The Derek Draper unit accusation is funny as well. Are these Conservative fuming first time commenters all genuine? as in Not from PR Dave Headquarters or anything?
Maybe your comments are being moderated because they're harassing or abusive to the staff. That's listed in the rules. They are probable exactly the same as the other 300 anyway so why all the fuss? Be grateful for your little propaganda tool. It isn't much use but at least you get enjoyment out of it.
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This government and everything it represents stinks. Nada mas nada menos.
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Seeng all the comments on this blog, I hope Nick Robinson does the honourable thing - leave BBC and join the Labour front bench!
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Following the logic of your argument and comparisons, we should look forward to the arrest of Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown for leaking details of the pre budget statement before presenting it to parliament. The government practices leaks constantly to set expectations (or spread lies) and the BBC play along by happily publishing their leaks without attributing the source. However it seems they don't like it when someone else does it and they cannot control what the public are told.
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#168 m1chaels
Thanks for the link. It's good to know there's still a little journalistic integrity left in the BBC, albeit outwith the Westmidden village.
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My earlier message which quotes the House Rules has been referred to the moderators.
Are the moderators going to allow this to continue?
What about the rule that says "Action will be taken against anyone abusing the complaints system or technical infrastructure"?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/messageboards/newguide/popup_breaking_rules.html
It's ironic that a story about 'gagging' is itself the victim of those who wish to stifle free speech.
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Moderators - please reinstate my messages 260 and 358.
Neither of them break the House Rules.
The BBC is supposed to be impartial.
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I am rather concerned that the PM or the appropriate ministers were unaware of what was going on prior to Mr Greens problems. Are these not the people who are supposed to be our leaders?
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How ridiculous can this country become. The police bring the might of the terrorist squad to arrest an MP who dares to let the public know what should of been released by the government in the first place. A public enquiry should now be instigated at once to ascertain who gave the police authority to carry out such a ridiculous order. If the home office is involved the Home Secretary should resign immediately.
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#47
A hung parliament would of course be disastrous - or were you trying to hint that a hung-drawn-and-quartered parliament is what we require?
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Nick,
Your disgraceful lack of journalistic integrity is shocking. There is absouletly no comparison between a genuine investigation of government corruption in cash for honours and the dawn raids by Brown's gestapo.
Simply trotting out the labour party line you have been fed by Mandy is not worthy of a impartial journalist.
I for one want to defend democracy and it is vital that government (of whatever colour) surpression and distortion of facts be exposed.
It is distrubing in the extreme that we now have have politically motivated dawn police raids under the pretext of "anti terror" legislation. Arrest and detection is not appropriate when the "crime" is to make Brown feel uncomfortable
Where is your outrage Nick? Don't you care that the police are being used as Labours muscle men?
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Why has no one been arrested for the leaks last weekend that VAT was to be reduced to 15% or Income Tax raised to 45%?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Am I being melodramatic but I feel that this arrest is the most dramatic politicial event of my lifetime. I'm 63.
There is no mystery about the reasons for it. They are purely policticial. Every labour supporter should hang their head in shame and more importantly DONE VOTE LABOUR.
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So who knew Damien Green was going to be arrested?
David Cameron - YES
Boris Johnson - YES
Michael Martin - YES
Gordon Brown - NO
Jacqui Smith - NO
This is incredible....the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary were totally unaware that a senior Conservative Member of Parliament was going to be arrested !
Who controls the Anti terror police?
Who must be told if the Anti terror police are put into action?
Surely in the UK if the Anti Terror police have to be called upon it is classed a so serious that the government must be informed?
I would like to think should the Anti terror police go to an incident our government know what is going on! If not why not?
So in the case with Green do we have the Anti Terro police doing as they god damn feel like? Or does protocal have to be acted on and the government informed of what they are doing?
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"THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN REFERED TO THE MODERATORS /REMOVED FOR BREAKING HOUSE RULES."
SHAME ON YOU BBC
TOTAL SHAME OF OUR GOVERNMENT.
TELL ME ALL THESE POSTS REMOVED FOR DEFAMATION BAD LANGUAGE ETC ETC
SHAME ON YOU.
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From the BBC website, so it must be true:
"Prime Minister Gordon Brown said it was purely a police matter."
So now he's admitted what he thinks of Parliament and democracy.
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# 380 dhwilkinson
I know you don't agree with all of my views, but I hope you will accept that there are messages being pulled which do not actually break the house rules.
The guidelines say "A moderator's job is to remove messages which break our House Rules. Messages will not be removed for any other reason."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/messageboards/newguide/popup_checking_messages.html
It is also against the rules to abuse the complaints system
http://www.bbc.co.uk/messageboards/newguide/popup_breaking_rules.html
Someone is making a lot of unjustified referrals. I think we are entitled to ask why this isn't being looked into.
The topic of this particular blog is actually about the powers-that-be using heavy-handed tactics to suppress information, which is ironic I think!
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If Brown didn't know,I fear for our democracy and if he did I fear for it more. I have been a Labour voter since voting,naively perhaps,for Michael Foot's "longest suicide note in history"in 1983.Brown,with his free market fundamentalism,is taking us into a moral vacuum where growth and profit count for more than civil liberties,workers rights and quality of life.The old right,left thing is largely dead,look at Bush,about as far right a president as I can remember,yet where did the Credit Crunch originate? China carries on abusing it's citizens yet Brown decides recently to recognise its sovereignty over Tibet.Sometimes,sacrifices have to be made for human advancement,short term gain will dilute democracy.Gordon,less pragmatism,more principle please!
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Just stuff, isn't it?
Just would like to see a Government that had a little bit of understanding of economicis.
In other words, take our money, spend it with caution.
Don't assume that changing measurements means that things are getting better.
Get a group of the brightest physics, chemistry and maths students together and make them take old "O" levels.
Then check how well Indian students do, compared to our lot.
Education has been a real mess here. Blair said it was a priority - but wanted new buidlings. I've said before that a buildfing has no relevance.
If it had some impact, Eton would have been destroyed years ago.
Go look at schools around the world.
It just ain't the buildings, it's what teachers do...
But we have a generation's worth of spending on new buildings, with too many teachers who really have no authority to tell kids to shut up and learn, and probably very little understanding of the subject they are supposed to teach.
Just where did that all that stuff come from?
Everybody should win?
Yes, everybody can do something.
Going to a University doesn't mean a thing.
Goodness knows we have MPs and Ministers who have great academic credentials, but minimal understanding of the world that most people live in.
(By the way, New Labour won a great - workable - majority, but the vast part of the electorate did not want them to govern the country.)
Just a bit sad.
New Labour seemed to offer a new approach. Reforming public services. Where did that go?
Dead as a Dodo.
At least, there's a stuffed Dodo to remind us of what it used to look like.
I can't imagine anyone choosing to stuff Gordon Brown.
He stuffed us, let that be enough...
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I trust that someone has asked both Gordon Brown and Jacqui Smith some extremely specific questions about Mr. Green's arrest.
Gordon Brown (and Tony Blair before him) is an expert at answering questions by using very carefully chosen words, which mislead the questioner and avoid giving an open and honest answer.
My own suspicion is that someone in government sought this arrest as a warning shot to whistleblowers in the civil service. There's lots to hide at the moment.
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254 morton
Suggest you read a book on The British Constitution. Start with Walter Bagehot and work your way forward in time.
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#374
Perhaps we can get the Conservatives and Lib-Dems to join forces, then ditch Ozzy in favour of V Cable. We just might save the country following Armagedon Brown.
As for statistics, I'd like to see how many emigrate following the next election if Labour are re-elected.
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What a surprise my post referred for stating that loads of posts were censored on this one.
Today Democracy ended in the UK
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As socialist ( small S) it saddens me to see the results of the last eleven years. With the introduction of the CJA 2000 - enabling the police to keep on record the fingerprints and DNA of innocent ( ie. not convicted in court) people , the introduction of spy in the sky cameras , the introduction of legislation to prevent the citizens exercising their democratic right to protest ( unless the police agree) , the demands to keep persons locked up for long periods of time without charge etc. , the lies to the country regarding foreign adventures with its accompanying suppression of internal dissent - Blair(T) laid the groundwork for a Fascist state that Blair(I) has finally implemented .
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#395
I think you missed a name off your list:
Ronald Reagan - No
(even if was alive I mean)
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Does anyone else see a possible a parallel between the police being used to stop leaks regarding information which is embarrassing to the government (the topic of this blog), and the moderators removing messages critical of the way this blog is being run?
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My Pet@271
You are one of few. Democracy depends on a functioning Parliament. Parliament is a court (Tony Benn). Its members have certain privileges so that they can't be attacked by the executive (government in power).
This basic principle has just been destroyed. I think you will find that all the politicians who believe in British democracy, no matter what party they belong to, are protesting very clearly about this.
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#390 artisticsocrates
"A hung parliament would of course be disastrous"
Why? It would lead to either:
A coalition with the LibDems at the price of the electoral reform promised by NuLab in '97 and bring so democracy to the UK.
OR
A minority government which had to respect the wishes of the electorate, as the Scottish government does.
OR
A grand unionist coalition between NuLab and the "official" Tories which would likely persuade the Scots and the Welsh to leave the UK forthwith.
In what way are these outcomes undesirable let alone disastrous?
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farside@272
Your Great Leader built his career on accessing leaked information. Don't remember him being arrested. Maybe he now thinks he should have been. LOL
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#372
It's very bad of anyone to suggest that there are any similarities between Mugabe and Brown.
Coming to power in a one horse race.
Driving the economy to an irrecoverable position.
Members of the opposition being arrested.
Chronic Megalomania.
(Have I missed anything out?)
I can't see any similarities at all.
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tolkny@275
Do you understand what a democracy is? Do you want to live in one? If the answers are yes, read and learn.
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I was just wondering, when we can expect Messers Brown, Darling and co, to be arrested after all the leaks last weekend on what was in the Pre-budget report.
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carrots@287
Maybe that dreadful piece of surveillance is the first step towards a bonking tax ......
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8.00pm News Update - BBC One
Mumbai - Understandable
Mother of Shannon Matthews cries in court ( again ) - not real news
Measles Epidemic fears - important but not as important as the death of democracy!
Shameful - absolutely shameful.
The editors at BBC should all be fired this evening.
REPORT THE REAL NEWS THAT AFFECT THE U.K. - not just what Flash and Mandy want us to know ( or not, as the case may be ).
P.S. To LAUGHATTHETORIES #38, here's the only reply you deserve. SOB, as the rights that our fathers and grandfathers fought and died for are brushed aside in the interests of political survival. Just remember to laugh when you or your family disappear one night when the regime finds you guilty in your absence.
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Time for a complaint to offcom i think,
BBC yet again panders to Nu Labour!
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Moderators - I know you are not going to let this through, but my last message # 407 was not "referred to the moderators" as stated.
You have simply blocked it yourselves. I know this because I have been watching and clicking refresh every few seconds.
This is really an abuse, because you are in effect censoring messages you personally do not like. None of my blocked messages have broken the rules.
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jc@336
I joined today.
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P.P.S.
Why are so many posts - some 6 hours old - still unmoderated ?
I can only draw comparisons with Tweedledum and Tweedledee in the film GOOD MORNING VIETNAM - who state that news isn't news until they have censored it and cleared it for broadcast.
That explosion didn't happen, those soldiers didn't die and no civilians were killed - good news for those families who loved ones were in pieces. That was fiction, but this latest travesty is real life
I CAN ONLY HANG MY HEAD IN SHAME THAT DEMOCRACY HAS DIED IN THE U.K.
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balhamu@348
"BTW is actual Conservative Party membership up? Would be interested to see figures - big achievement for Cameron if this is true,"
Sadly for Labour it's Gordon's achievement.
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"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Martin Niemöller
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#315 dontneedthegrief wrote:
Charles @297...
"About my having been in a position to leak and force a ministerial resignation: yes, it's true. But, there were legal and practical issues, and I have no interest in creating the impression that I'm a blabbermouth: nobody would ever trust me again."
Well, well.
"Legal and practical issues". Do you ever think that there are always legal and practical issues that make it hard for real people to speak out when really bad stuff is being done?
I have no idea where you work, but speaking out is a fundamental choice.
You obviously chose NOT to do it.
Frankly, if there were any Minister - whether Tory, Labour, liberal or other - who had done something really wrong, and you couldn't take the high moral ground - you lose any credibility.
Blabbermouth?
Whoever would have thought that C_E_H would be a blabbermouth?
Nobody would "trust him" again?
On what topics, dear Charles.
Computer games?
Stuff for the fairies?
REAL things that impact real people?
For goodness sake, I was aware of some really difficult stuff affecting MPs and Ministers a long, long, time ago.
It was really about people stepping a bit out of their zone. To try to help advance a bit of UK business. I had no reason to leak that.
You, C_E_H seem to think that it's normal that somebody, who knew something that may have been damaging to their bosses, should be stiffled.
Well, welcome to Brown-land.
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Arresting Government aides is not the same as arresting Shadow Minister. The police strenuously avoided arresting New Labour politicians despite evidence of 10 years of sleaze.
Is it coincidence that a) Ian Blair has left his post at request of Tory mayor and b) that parliament is not sitting at the moment.
Can't the BBC spot a defining moment in the future of our "democracy"
Labours squeals of "nowt to do with us "rings hollow. Truly Mandelson and Campbell are back in business.
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Evil prevails when good men do nothing.
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Should have known... 140+ shot dead in Mumbai would have been a very good day for trashing democracy.
Jaqui Smith and Gordon Brown's denials of any knowledge in the matter are frankly unbelievable.
As for Ian Blair, I hope the Cameron government make it a priority to investigate his term of office in fine detail.
Similarly, I'm sure the BBC will find a more able and impartial political correspondent, in 2010.
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No surprise re the TWO deletions
TODAY DEMOCRACY ENDED IN THIS COUNTRY
NO BAD LANGUAGE
NOT DEFAMATORY
THIS DOES NOT BREAK HOUSE RULES
Moderators youve just given me even more to complain about to the BBC.
More information to discuss with my local MP
Thankyou so much
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Trying to equate the criminal corruption of cash for honours with a shadow minister simply doing his job is a very very low thing to do, even for the BBC.
Blair was in the frame for accepting money in return for power and favours, and all he got was a friendly pre-agreed visit from a plain clothes officer over a cup of tea in his own home.
Green's home was ransacked by 9 officers and he was forced down to the police station and interrogated for 9 hours just for doing his job.
What's wrong with this picture, Nick?
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#409
Nice comments, but I look back to the '70s when there was general chaos as no-one could claim power. Parties are adversarial by nature and do not co-operate. The smaller party that makes up a useful majority to put a larger party in overall power always regrets the act and they do not get their way - it's all happened before.
I agree with your sentiments - I would LIKE to see co-operation in these times and see the best man in each job regardless of their party, but I don't get the feeling that this is likely. Someone, for instance, would have to give way to V Cable - he is clearly a choice as chancellor. Would Ali D or Ozzy step to one side?
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Euripedy-do-da Euripedy-dad
Those whom the gods would destroy
They first make mad ....
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Labour are making the UK a scary place to live in. Erosion of our freedoms seems to be their primary policy.... but why? Surely even they have seen the failures in dictatorships over the past century. Is there another agenda with these decrepit fools?
Beyond a joke.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
All over the world the word responsibile is echoed, however here is Britain the continuation of irresponsibility and tory boot boys are alive and kicking the hell out of the responsible pact.
Jeez. D. Davis openly admit he sanctioned the whole sorry mess.
Wow! will he hold another by-election to celebrate his irresponsibility.
I guess a knave is a knave.
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Nick - I agree with the overwhelming sentiment expressed on this thread today. It would be nice to hear from you as we haven't done since lunchtime. I expected to see you see you standing outside number 10 on the Six O'Clock and Ten O'Clock News with a live update. Instead we got a reported piece from Carole Walker with no insight. Can you explain why the BBC is choosing not cover this episode to any form of rigorous analysis as it did with Cash for Honours? If there are legal reasons why specific aspects of the case cannot be discussed then fine (although I don't recall this being a problem during Levygate), but there are so many broader questions to be asked concerning the entry of the police into the House of Commons, due process and Parliamentary Privilege. Why is nobody at the BBC asking them?
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Do you really believe what you have written?
I did not realise how incestuous our present politics and political journalists had become.
This case is a line in the sand. if you and your cowardly ilk don't wish to stand up for our rights, for what reason I do not know, then the BBC will receive the wrath of millions.
Even Jeremy Corbyn gets my vote when he stands out against this monstrous step towards fascism.
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Come on Nick - we need you to say what you think not what your obliged to balance out
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????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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Green did wrong - the information was not for publication! What gives him the right to make it public? Why should MPs live by a different set of standards to the rest of us? They all behave like kids in the House at PMQs thus demonstrating they dont deserve our respect and definitely dont deserve special treatment!
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re post 433
What are you on about???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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431 doctorbreezy
"Labour are making the UK a scary place to live in. Erosion of our freedoms seems to be their primary policy.... but why? Surely even they have seen the failures in dictatorships over the past century."
Well, yes, but remember that Mugabe is still in power, it took about 40 years for the berlin wall to come down, and it took nearly 10 years and the entire world to defeat the nazis from the point of their inception.
Dictators may be mad, but they're very intelligent in their own weird/warped way and have a habit of being able to pull the wool over the eyes of the majority by using propaganda against their own people.
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Derek@433
What ARE you on about?? Your post is completely incomprehensible.
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I posted at #16.
It's still being moderated.
Would you at least have the courtesy to make a decision, or be told what the decision is and act on it?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
If our counter terrorist police have time to work on this case then maybe the current terrorist threat is not as high as our government would like us to believe??
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#439
Your probably a young naive recationist getting over excited because a tory MP was arrested.
Hey! kid, the last tory government did some
gut-renching things, you know! thatcher set loose the police force with truncheons smashing on to peoples heads. All because those people wanted to defend their right to a job.
You come on here shouting the odds over one MP and civil liberties, when the last tory government, literary put the boot right into decent people. jeez, kid, get sense of reality.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#428 artisticsocrates
"Parties are adversarial by nature and do not co-operate. The smaller party that makes up a useful majority to put a larger party in overall power always regrets the act and they do not get their way - it's all happened before."
That is only true of the UK and that is because of Westmidden's quasi-democratic plurality voting system, now extinct in the rest of the EU and becoming extinct everywhere in the UK except for Westmidden.
It encourages parties to believe they can win without fair voting so maintaining their adversarial nature leading to abuses of power. In the past century, only the National Government of 1931 achieved 50% of the votes casts yet most had majorities of seats which allowed them to ride roughshod over the wishes of the majority, as the current lot have done.
I know the example of Italy is always dragged out to "prove" that coalitions don't work but that ignores the fact that the Italians got a bellyful of "strong" government under the fascists and aren't in a hurry to repeat the dose. Nice Mr Cameron may not repeat the follies of NuLab authoritarianism but you can be sure that sooner or later someone will if the UK survives and its electoral system does not change.
More relevant is the fact that fair voting generally produces stable government everywhere else in the EU from Finland to Portugal.
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It has taken this extraordinary event to bring me into the world of blogging. This issue has to be pursued. Our democracy is at stake and after 400 years it risks being brought down from within.
"And in as much as we have found by sad experience, That generally men make little or nothing, to innovate in Government to exceed their time and power in places of trust, to introduce an Arbitrary, and Tyrannical power, and to overturn all things into Anarchy and Confusion, where there are no penalties imposed for such destructive crimes and offences."
Lieutenant Colonel John Lilburne, Master William Walwyn, Master
Thomas Prince, and Master Richard Overton, Prisoners in the
Tower of London, May the 1. 1649.
Damian Green's arrest and detention is an historic matter and must become a turning point for the preservation of our liberty and freedom of speech and self expression.
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alex@439
My 441
Snap!
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Nick Robinson - I cannot begin to register my fury at your quisling cr-p. At least in Zim there are some honest journalists struggling to get the truth out, and in Russia many who have died for it. You dishonour those journalists' memories. You should examine your conscience & your political bias very carefully, and consider whether you are the right person to carry the responsibility of this job. As for paying your salary, I now refuse and will cancel my DD for the licence tax, sorry fee.
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#441
Jeez, Pammy, dont tell me you are on here and not up to date with the facts so far?
David Davis was Greens boss at the time of these leaks, Davis told GMTV that it was he(davis) who sanctioned the leaks.
Pammy, come on dont tell me you shout for the sake of shouting.
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A couple of weeks ago I spent an hour in a debate about the BBC. In a room full of other Conservatives saying how the BBC were intrinsically biased and unfair I was almost the sole voice arguing on behalf of the corporation.
I've always liked the BBC. I've never felt the bias was "too much".
I'm feeling pretty stupid now.
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This article shows how little the public are now told about our system of government. The only conclusion that can be made is that the bbc is now buried deep within mr Browns pocket. Where were the anti terror police when Blair was selling our democracy to the highest bidder? why wasn't 10 downing street raided I wonder?
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This whole episode comes down to whether or not the public and the press are entitled to know when things go wrong for the government. In the case of Damian Green he has unquestionably done the public a service by exposing things that the government would rather cover up.
Where does this leave the press, who are often also in receipt of leaked information? And what happens if the person leaking is a part of the government? Leaking is often used as a 'kite-flying exercise' to test public opinion.
The heavy handed treatment Green has received is extremely worrying in a democracy.
It's ironic that this blog has been subjected to the same sort of heavy handed treatment. Quite a few of my messages have been removed (or not even published) for no reason. Messages are not supposed to be removed unless they break the house rules, which mine did not. There is something very worrying going on here and perhaps an official complaint to ofcom will be the only option.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Constant referral for no valid reason
What we have come to expect??
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re post 452
I couldnt agree MORE
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Will we get like 1930's Germany?
I have a feeling we are going down that road.
DENIAL DENIAL DENIAL
LIE LIE LIE
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What a stupid world this is becoming! MP's used to be respected, and the Police used to act in the interest of this Country, and both were Public Servants. Now, morals have been replaced and many laws are made for political ends. How on earth can MP's or Broadcasters tell the truth if they are in fear of being arrested for telling the truth, or, having their Director General replaced because he agreed with a broadcaster disclosing some nefarious deed? When will we again be able to trust what an MP says or what a policeman does?
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What a stupid world this is becoming! MP's used to be respected, and the Police used to act in the interest of this Country, and both were Public Servants. Now, morals have been replaced, and many laws are made for political ends. How on earth can MP's or Broadcasters tell the truth if they are in fear of being arrested for telling the truth, or, having their Director General replaced because he agreed with a broadcaster disclosing some nefarious deed? When will we again be able to trust what an MP says or what a policeman does?
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Nick,
What about the use of counter-terrorism officers regarded by the Met as most apprpriate.
Iseem to remember NuLabour last used these against an 80 year old heckler.
What will Gordon do next to shut down protest (lawful or not)
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Nick, i have to echo many of the comments. It really is rather weak and many would see it as once again showing either your or the BBC bias or perhaps both.
An MP arrested for giving the public information that a government would like to bury. 5000 illegal immigrants working for security firms,they know about and have done nothing and that presumably is the tip of the iceberg. We have a right to know we do not ,as yet, live in a complete dictatorship but if this is left to be a few journalistic asides and considered to be of no consequence then you really should consider your position. By treating this matter as you have to date one has to question who are you serving as it appears you have one or even two too many masters.
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Im an SNP supporter but this is outrageous on the part of the police and serious questions should be asked.
No wonder there is a prevalent mistrust of the police by many of the general public who never commit crimes. Events such as Menendez and this latest counter terrorism sham prove that they are overstepping the democratic laws.
The police are NOT THE LAW - they only enforce it and its time this was realised.
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The arrest of an opposition Shadow Minister from whatever Party, is a very serious development. If the Mayor of London knew, David Cameron knew, why didn't the Home Secretary know? Was the Speaker involved?
This is a complete affront to our Democracy. The country is being turned into a police state the former East German Stazi would have been proud of.
Who initiated this investigation? Who authorised police to arrest Mr Green? Who authorised the anti-terrorist police to intervene? On what grounds was he arrested?
This smacks of an attempt by this dysfunctional Labour Government to smear the Tory Party tand it has gone badly wrong.
No doubt those Labour members of the Home Affairs Select Committee will try and make excuses (white wash) if they cannot make these charges stick.
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I listened to Radio 4 today from about 07:30 onwards and I find the BBC is very quiet about the arrest of an MP and this fundamental attack on the principles of UK democracy. The web coverage is OK but the radio coverage seems to be lacking. Perhaps I missed something earlier or is the BBC still afraid and cowed by New Labour bullies like Alistair Campbell? I doubt very much if the current speaker is aware of the history concerning Charle's 1st encounter with the speaker of the time - unless he watched the Devil's Whore on Channel 4 on Wednesday - even then I doubt if he would have been able to understand that many of his predecessors were far more upright than he is.
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This would make a great story for "Spooks". I can just see Harry getting thin-lipped while the Minister denies all. Funny perhaps if not so threatening a constitutional issue. Come on BBC - this is the big news in UK and there is a story behind this which needs rooting out. Whilst no fan of Labour I have to accept that Tony Benn is spot on as usual.
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I find it an absolute joke that the M.P's are making such a Huo ha out of Mr Green being arrested.
If the police have a suspicion that a person has or intends to commit a crime ...Then I'm sure they can arrest, that includes M.P's or do they think their above the law.
What on earth are the M.P's talking about when they say "it was a bit heavy handed"...they didn't drag him out screaming and shouting handcuffed to a police officer!!!
How dare the M.P's demean the police when one of their own gets arrested.
What's good for the geese is good for the gander..............the police can't do right from wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Crime is crime...so everyone should be dealt with the same (No Privilege's for MPS)
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The single most important political news story of today is the arrest of a Tory MP for doing his job. Why is this completely absent from this morning's BBC news broadcasts? The high handed action by the Police has been condemned by all sections of the press, including Michael White in the Guardian. Even Tony Benn has roundly condemned this action as an affront to Parliament. Yet nothing on the BBC this morning apart from about 30 seconds towards the end of the Today programme. Why is this? Does the BBC have no sense of history, of how our parliamentary freedoms were fought for over the centuries? Or is it the case of pressure from the Government? Whatever it is the BBC has once more failed us. This is a very sad day for the BBC and our Democracy.
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Preachers of hate started it off, now they won't let me speak either, nor will the government-funded, public library PC computer, access ...
''The Fall Online''
gasp,shock,horror !!
My wheelie bin* tells me ''I am obese''
yours e.t.c.,
Mr C.
26th December 2008.
*You do have these new fangled wheelies that ''Speak your Weight'' ??
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Shame on you Nick Robinson.
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Albeit it for one term only, it would serve our shattered democracy well if the Conservatives and LibDems combined to fight the next election.
Such a coalition would surely free us of these Neo Soviet Labour control freaks who are intent upon destroying what little credibility we have left.
Cameron and Clegg would also be well served by inviting the SNP to join the alliance. Alex Salmon is firmly in the cross hairs of of this Honecker style government and unless he is prepared to join forces and support the cause, he will soon be history.
WE the people of all persuasions employ our politicians to care for and protect us, right now the tail is wagging the dog and they show little or no regard regard for their employers.
However radical and whatever political tactic is used, the current governing party must be removed from power.
Such a stratedgy may give Mr Robinson something meaningful to commentate on.
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Albeit it for one term only, it would serve our shattered democracy well if the Conservatives and LibDems combined to fight the next election.
Such a coalition would surely free us of these Neo Soviet Labour control freaks who are intent upon destroying what little credibility we have left.
Cameron and Clegg would also be well served by inviting the SNP to join the alliance. Alex Salmon is firmly in the cross hairs of of this Honecker style government and unless he is prepared to join forces and support the cause, he will soon be history.
WE the people of all persuasions employ our politicians to care for and protect us, right now the tail is wagging the dog and they show little or no regard regard for their employers.
However radical and whatever political tactic is used, the current governing party must be removed from power.
Such a strategy may give Mr Robinson something meaningful to commentate on.
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Nick,
I am surprised that you have taken this line of thought, is it your thought? or are you too frightened to speak out against what seems to many of us a corrupt government.
THE REAL NEWS
The government do not represent the electorate but a relatively small group
of powerful and rich people who want to inherit the world and make slaves
of everyone who is left. In other words back to serfdom where all the poor ordinary, normal people belong.
PROVE ME WRONG!
It also seems that the BBC is complicit in
this endeavour by their total inaction on our freedoms being eroded by the day.
You are supposed to have the freedom to be our front line on defending our freedom and our democray, when in the hell are you going to start?
I am totally sick of the way this once great beacon of democracy is going and to be quite honest I am ashamed to be British and the laughing stock of the world who at one time used to look up to us for fairness and honesty.
I am not convinced that we humans have become sane enough to join together as one world unless it is forced upon us and it is my belief that this is occurring and getting very closer and closer by the day.
This latest episode is one such occurrence and there will be more unless we the people of the United Kingdom stand up for our freedoms and say enough is enough and we must do it now.
Nick I ask you now to grow some and start asking questions about our fears and the way this Country is being governed, after all you are a journalist and it's YOUR JOB.
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derek@451
"you shout for the sake of shouting"
Suggest you look in a mirror.
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brownedov@447
Your argument is well reasoned and I think now that this is the only option for preserving democracy. In the past, the House of Lords could be relied on to preserve the balance of powers, but their own powers have been eroded considerably, and the quality of some who've been elevated in recent years is extremely poor (both main parties are guilty of this), so something needs to be done. But how? Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
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And we pay for this shallow tendentious analysis?
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pearce@467
Suggest you read some books about the British Constitution. They may help you to dismantle it more quickly.
Oh dear, maybe I should refer myself ......
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police state
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Wow! Pammy are you refering to that great and ancient magna carta?
Or is your frame-work shy on evidence.
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Surely, the distinction between the Turner and Green cases is that (a) the former was a step taken as part of an investigation into the allegation an allegation of cash for honours (and as such an investigation which could be described as being adverse to the interests of the government of the day) whereas (b) the arrest of Damian Green was a step taken in the investigation instigated to prevent information which is politically unfavourable to the government from being released into the public domain and thus to intimidate the opposition from performing its parliamentary functions.
In both cases the methods chosen to conduct of the investigatiojn by the police may be open to serious criticism but the abuse of power in relation to Green is inspired by an attempt to prevent parliament from holding the executive to account.
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If Brown and Smith knew about this arrest then they are culpable and should both resign.
If Brown and Smith are running a system in which an MP/Minister can be arrested without their knowledge then they are incompetent and should both resign.
Meanwhile the Speaker of the Commons is a disgrace to his post and tradition and should also resign forthwith.
Meanwhile there's a firestorm across Westminster and those papers who actually care about civil liberties - and we get this limp apology for a blog. Worse we get one that tries to equate a Tory suspected of no worse than trying to get truth out of the Government with a Labourite suspected of trying to conceal corruption at the highest level.
I don't like the habit some people have of throwing "This shows you're biased" at you based on every other blog, but adding this to the whole Osborne/Mendelson saga is starting to make me agree with them.
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#467 pearce9454
Hello newbie, while your opinion is welcome, may I respectfully suggest that you read the issues involved at the top of this thread and, better, the next, newest one before commenting.
Under our non-constitution, the right of opposition MPs to hold the government is one of the few safeguards we have, and your right for your correspondence (be it email or letter) to your MP to remain confidential is as important to the constituent as it is to the MP.
The raiding of files and blocking of email at both the MP's home and in Westmidden is no light matter, whether you think it was appropriate in this case or not.
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Shurely shome mishtake...
Wot?
Nine members of the Met plod on the rampage in a pack and nobody gets shot in the head nine times?
A clear lapse in the command structure, I fear.
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#471 antiblazer
Not a bad idea, and possibly acheivable at the price of a referendum on the electoral reform which is long overdue. It would certainly resolve the issue of constituents' and MPs' rights, which is the nub of this issue.
A simple non-aggression pact would be enough, agreeing to give a clear run at Labour to whoever was 2nd to them in 2005.
The Tories were 2nd in 221, LibDems in 106, Plaid in 7 and the SNP in 18 seats. Such a pact would certainly throw most of the scoundrels out.
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#475 PammyAnny
"I think now that this is the only option for preserving democracy."
I agree, but I suspect it's also the only medium term way of saving the UK. Unless it happens soon, Scotland will likely vote to break away and Wales follow soon after.
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#62 CEH
Charles you said "If you look at the praise they heaped on the City for its "creative products"and never saying a peep about how "Chinese walls" were routinely broken, you have to ask yourself if the Tory party actually has the capacity to identify and fix the system or, indeed, their own internal problems.
I guess you had in mind the following kind os utterances
"Your dynamism allied to the City's openness has led London to innovate: the most modern instruments of finance"
"London has enjoyed one of its most successful years ever, for which I congratulate all of you here on your leadership skills and entrepreneurship"
"I said that our new monetary and fiscal regime was founded on stability first, foremost and always, stability yesterday, today and tomorrow, stability through a stable and competitive tax regime, and stability through a predictable and light touch regulatory environment"
"Let me say I see no case for a European single regulator and will continue to reject such a proposal,"
Said by Cameron or other Tories ? Nope - Gordon Brown. Mansion House speech 2006
So, the system is in good hands.
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By posting on here and complaining about the acts of the MET means that we are probably all on the list of people getting monitored under one of the many anti-terror legislations. Rather than fighting crime or "terrorism" they are probably documenting who you phone, what you eat and what kind of car you drive.
It would be bliss if I was an attention seeker!
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Strange how there is no question relating to this on the main HYS site? Has it been censored by the state?
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Just thought of a possible "parallel" for the storylines...
Turner and Mandelson are both unelected!
And of course the supreme leader himself is also unelected... You are not alone, Alice Cooper!
Reading all this stuff about "not seeing anything about the impending arrest" rubbish makes me think there's a new "they should have gone to Specsavers" ad in the offing...
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