Further VAT rise was considered
The Treasury's plan to increase VAT to 18.5% was dropped as late as last Friday. It followed what I'm told was a lively debate between Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling although both sides insist there was no row.
The Whitehall line is that this reflects the sort of choice that governments have to face all the time.
The case for a VAT rise was that it would increase the stimulus effect of a temporary cut in VAT as shops can say "buy now before VAT soars". As it is not a tax on income it would have no disincentive effect and would not encourage the wealthy to move abroad. However, since it is a regressive tax - the poor spend a greater proportion of their income than the rich - it would not fit into Labour's "fairness" agenda. It was, after all, Margaret Thatcher's policy in 1979 to cut income tax and raise VAT.
The arguments for a new top rate of income tax and rise in NICs will have been that it highlighted the choice between the parties. What's more it's not as politically risky as it once was since there's public anger with rich bankers, traders and the like. It's also less economically risky since other countries - the USA, for example - are planning to put up taxes on the rich. The downside, of course, was that it would allow the Tories to say that it was the thin end of the taxation wedge and to claim that New Labour is dead.
Historians will enjoy looking hard at this. They will be fascinated at the light it shines on Gordon Brown's last minute decision making.
However, the story has further to go today.
I have been told by one apparently well informed source that the Treasury were considering a further VAT rise to 20% in 2012.
The question all this raises is - did the Treasury want to promise to raise more tax than was announced in the PBR in order to look credible? Remember that each 1% of VAT raises around £5bn.
Did Gordon Brown fear that this would frighten consumers and voters - undermining the effect of the fiscal stimulus and also, of course, Labour's re-election chances?
In the summer, before the banking crisis worsened, some in Whitehall talked of their hopes that Alistair Darling would become a chancellor like Roy Jenkins or Ken Clarke. In other words someone prepared to raise taxes for the good of the country even if it damaged their party. Indeed, Mr Darling spoke of his desire to be open and transparent with the voters. To be fair to him the PBR did spell out both the scale of the budgetary problem Britain faces and some pretty uncomfortable medicine too.
But did he originally plan to go further?
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The question is whether or not there is a "black hole" in the Treasury figures.
If there is, then the VAT increase is still planned but hidden.
If the sums add up then we will know that someone just forgot to change the text when the proposal was dropped.
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What is wrong with Robinson's memory? Or is it that all BBC political reporters have a Labour chip implanted into their brain?
VAT was brought in by the Wilson Government of 1974 - with a "luxury" tax of 25% - Thatcher, in 1979, nerely ironed that out - and then weighted to the lower end - 15 and 25% became 17.5% - and that was mostly because Europe said we must have it there.
By all means continue the anti-Thatcher rant, but get the facts right, and, perhaps also, remind all New Labourites that it was 18 years of Tory rule (following Thatcher's pattern) that gave them, the benign economy that it took them 10 years to destroy.
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What can one say. If this was in their plans till the weekend, then what were they really thinking?
I'm sorry, but as you keep spinning, each additional explanation becomes less plausible than previous ones.
Unfortunately the joke, such as it is, is on us.
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Why on earth is this news; why not focus on what we know is actually happening? If the Government cannot consider every possible option during unprecedented times without fear of freedom, how can expect them to ever make the correct decision? Nonetheless I'm sure the member of staff responsible for putting up the document in mistake is in hot water.
I also find it amusing how the BBC has repeatedly offered comments from the public about how the 2.5% drop in VAT will make "little difference" yet suddenly a possible 1% increase in VAT is the end of the world! Somewhat of a contradiction, Nick.
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Are we still assuming Darling makes the decisons and not the puppet master?
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Any more surprises Nick? My God this party is in self destruct mode.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
My, My Nick you are rapidly becoming an advertisement for NuLabor.
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Nick,
of course they should raise VAT to 20%.
This is getting seriously bizarre, let me explain.
In the early seventies I was walking down Tottenham Court Road, and had heard that VAT was to be increased. So, I went into an electrical shop and purchased a radio which I wanted, to beat the increase in VAT. Just as you suggest.
The bizarre bit is that I was stopped by a BBC reporter who then asked me what I had done and why I had done it. The answers were braodcast on the evening news and on the radio. My wife went ballistic because we were not exactly flush with cash at the time. I had not told her what I was going to do, yes I know man under thumb and all that!
It was seen by most of the people I worked with and it was just so emabarrassing. But my point is that I would say that I would put up VAT to 25% in 2012 so that there is a real drive for people to spend now. When we got to 2012 I would then say well done, I will only put up VAT to 20%, as a reward.
Problem solved, or am I being just that little bit cynical. Looking forward to PMQs and so glad that there is to be a debate on the crisis budget, good old Pericles wins the day again. Will he name the dead that's what I want to know, the killings go on.
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But did he originally plan to go further?
Darling is a puppet chancellor. Brown's bullying nature prevented him from relinquishing control to Darling.
The corrupt, deluded Brown demands that he run everything himself, and consequently we're all screwed for geenerations because of his mistakes and lies.
Thanks Labour.
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Economics shmeconomics! There is other stuff going on, Nick. Backdoor ID cards anyone? Iraq (The illegal war, remember that?) and Afghanistan a bloody mess?
I read that the National Security Agency in the US didn't trust Tony Blair (Surprise!) and bugged his phone calls. Apparently his code name was 'Anchory'. They had to remove the 'W' as otherwise everyone knew who they meant.
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Nick
It looks as though NuLabour not only hide the surprises in the small print, but now they are hidden off-page, rather like their PFI.
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There's a large black hole in this emergency budget of around £100Bn.
Call me cynical but are there future tax rises coming that Brown n' Darling aren't admitting to? Or rather won't admit to..... until after the next election on the implausible assumption they get re-elected?
Welcome to Brown's "There is no “hidden manifesto” – “everything is above board”."
Isn't the narrative something like this:
- Brown plans 1% rise in VAT
- Brown dithers and chickens out at last minute, cancelling the VAT rise
- Treasury very hasily edits documents and spreadsheets to remove references to it
- Hacks spot the sums don't add up because of the removal of this (and other?) tax rises
- Agh, cock up - miss editing a pesky addendum and the VAT rise becomes public.
This isn't just a cock up as Angela Eagle claims, if so why was the document containinig the VAT rise signed by Stephen Timms?
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Nick,
if I was Cameron at PMQs I would go on this one. Cheshire Cat Gordon should be exposed for what he is a very weak man, he is not a leader, he is led, the only trouble is who is leading him, where does he get his orders from.
As the repercussions of the credit crunch continue to hit the retailers, two apparently in deep trouble today, then it is many poor women who will be hit the hardest. These women are probably the only earners in many families, so much for working families tax credits!
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Lets be clear - we are in a mess and we've got the wrong set of lunatics in charge of the asylum, just to mix up the metaphores.
Since the only plan that Broon and Darkling have is to blam the tories, blame the rest of the world, increase borrowing, put up taexs, blame the tories and the rest of the world, should we be surprised at anything they propose.
The only thing they fail to factor in is that if we don't have any jobs, then we don't have any income, then they can't raise money on any kind of tax.
Everything else is pie in the sky. Forget dogma, do something to create proper jobs, then the money will flow. The only jobs this lot are worried about are their own.
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#11 Poprishchin
Absolutely brilliant, you have brightened up an otherwise dull day. My sides are still sore from laughing.
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Nick
Gordon having a last minute change of mind is just confirmation of his dithering.
Now he has had a few days more, is there anything else that he would like to change? Oops too late, its been published.
When they dropped the VAT rise, what did they fill the gap with? Improved 'growth' projections? or do they admit that their is a hole in their finances?
FWIW: Did you read this story before you posted it, or did you do a 'Timms' and just accept what you were given by brown/darling?
I ask because this line:
it would not fit into Labour's "fairness" agenda. It was, after all, Margaret Thatcher's policy in 1979 to cut income tax and raise VAT.
is frankly pathetic -- 25 years ago, in entirely different circumstances Maggie did something that helped towards the repairing of the british economy - making the ecoinomy so strong, that it has taken a decade of labour incompetence to destroy.
ps. Had a chance to ask mandleson about his tarriff meetings with Oleg yet?
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1. Pensfold wrote:
The question is whether or not there is a "black hole" in the Treasury figures.
There are certainly a few "black holes" where there should be brains in Nu Labour.
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It was already clear to many by Sunday that the Treasury themselves had consulted with the markets and realised just how bare the cupboard was.
That is why debt was the real story on Monday.
http://cassiuswrites.blogspot.com/2008/11/not-much-of-toaster.html
But the suggestion of a VAT rise, as well as the black hole in the figures which no doubt will be debated today - is clear evidence that Labour's grip on the situation is thin; and that they cannot be relied upon to tell the truth.
Remember, Alistair Darling said as recently as Monday that we were in a "relatively strong" position and hence would not suffer so much.
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If raising VAT by 1% raises only £5bn this is going to be a drop in the ocean compared to what this country owes. I'm assuming the amount goes up daily as there is some form of interest to be paid on these loans?
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This uncertainty is one of the many reasons that virtually no retailers will pass the 2.5% vat reduction onto their customers, and retailers will just use it to cushion the blow for them when they have no customers at all next year.
We've recently been contacting our uk clients (we, being an i.t. company) to ask whether they want to pass on the vat reduction to their customers or just pocket the difference by increasing their base prices. So far all the retailers we've asked have said exactly the same thing as each other, without any prompting/advice/suggestions from us:
"we'll pocket the difference ourselves; it's only a couple of quid even on massive items anyway so our customers wouldn't even notice it, and it'll give us a tiny bit of extra cash to help us when things get really bad later on."
Brown/Darling are in a world of their own; they've got absolutely no idea how the real world works.
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pps.
seen this?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/3521147/Germany-and-ECB-resist-calls-for-stimulus.html
Germany have a balanced budget and are better placed than UK to give a stimulus -- but say that you 'cant send your way out of recession' - and the ECB agreee.
Brown is upto his kneck in debt, so what does he care if he lumbers us with a few hundred billion more?
Are you going to write about europe not 'following browns example' ?
Gordon "look at me Im at the front, look, look, I'm leading - where are we going? oh are we, ok let me through - look I'm leading, Im at the front, look at me!" Brown is worthless.
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Four years ago I was giving a lecture to 50 Iraqi Forensic Officers, at Bournmouth University.
At the end of the lecture, on old fellow came up to me and asked.
"Excuse me sir, why has our country been wrecked and how long will it take to repair?"
Frustratingly my answer to him has come to roost.
I replied to him. "You country has been wrecked because my government, never had a proper stratergy, and it will take a minimum of 20 years to clear up the mess."
Sadly ironic.
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Now here's a little thing that nobody has really focused on.
N Ireland might well benefit from a cut in VAT because Eire has a much higher level of VAT, and there's a strong incentive for those who want to buy VATable goods to buy them over the border.
If we were to cut VAT a little more, to cover the transport costs, we could cause Belgian, Dutch and French shoppers to cross the channel and shop here for those VATable items.
That would achieve the economic boost that the government is looking for.
Sit back and wait.
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An additional 2.5% of VAT ain't the half of it. Get used to it, people, whether the next government is red or blue, taxes are going up significantly.
The only question is whether the increased taxes are matched by reduced spending, to minimise the period of retrenchment. Labour don't have the courage to do that and will therefore cop out. Tax more = spend more as far they are concerned. The Tories, as usual, will go overboard and slash and burn the public sector.
Forget about going out and spending before taxes go up, get yourself on the NHS waiting list for your hip replacement op, pronto, because once the Tories get back in, you'll be waiting a lot longer.
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various# the real truth
I dont think Nick is going to talk about Oleg & Mandelson.
Might be worth dropping this one.
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Don't make me laugh...Alistair Darling as the chancellor who wanted to tell the truth? With Gordon Brown as his puppet master? The man who has spun more on the economy than Tony Blair and his dodgy dossier on Iraq.
I'm sorry but newlabour wouldn't know the truth if they drove straight into it at a hundred miles an hour.
Their poll ratings are going straight back down again; the BBC will feel no compunction to support their case because there are going to be public sector cuts whomsoever is in power.
Even the Guardian's poll now has Alistair Darling's PBR as a 71.1% failure vs 28.9% success. If they can't get their own people to supprt they are going to be reliant on balhamu and CEH packing the polling booths in 2010.
This is an incompetent and malicious government. It seeks to portray its narrative of fairness agendas and social justice while simultaneously lifting out of every pocket in the land.
Newlabour are fakes and frauds.
Call an election.
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What Brown, Darling and King fail to grasp is the reason we are in this mess is because people have been spending far too much. This is the culture of "I want it now, so therefore I must have it".
Whatever happened to the idea of 'saving up'? Or making do?
I was down at my local rubbish tip (sorry, recycling centre) the other day, and was amazed to see a skip filled with 'old' plasma TVs. We have become a nation of Squanderbugs. (Younger readers can look this up!)
Borrowing lots of money from the banks in order to buy imported goods will do nothing to help the economy.
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Nick, you are in danger of being the shining example of those in the BBC who have relinquished their responsibility for unbiased reporting, plus the corporation's essential independence of Government.
Your pro-Brown/Darling positioning is sadly embarassing to witness. There is a need for far more rigourous and critical analysis of Brown and his stewardship of our failing economy.
His excessive borrowing, off-balance-sheet expenditures (a la PFI), penchant for stealth taxes, spin and unproductive, excessive spending is what got us all into this mess.
His PBR is simply digging an even bigger hole for the future and we will all lose out, not just the super rich. The actions taken will fail to achieve his goals and result in a prolonged and severe recession, massive national debt and consequential higher taxes for the next Government.
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The government, economy and country is taking a pounding from all the negative comments - are people turning this into political point scoring?
What happened to the British Spirit? Isn't this a time to club together, to work for the common good and ensure survival for all?
I see Britain as a proud nation with creative thinkers, hard-workers and a social conscious. We can be a country to help lead Europe out of recession. We have some of the best economic minds and politically astute people in charge.
Let's support them now and leave the finger pointing until later...
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Dosn't exactly inspire confidence does it? Those in charge(ish) of the Country's finances seemingly flipping a coin to decide whether raising or lowering V.A.T. is the answer to all our problems,no doubt they had people working on spinning either option as a wise and correct decision before it had been made.
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Mervyn wants the banksbanks to lend us more so that we can spend our way happy!
Already we can see Gordon rubbing his hands with glee as he prepares to seize control of the banks if they don't do as they are told - which is what Real Labour has wanted all along.
In their 1983 manifesto, Labour said:
"We expect the major clearing banks to co operate with us fully on these reforms, in the national interest. However, should they fail to do so, we shall stand ready to take one or more of them into public ownership."
New Labour is now replaced by Real Labour!
While you are looking at that, read what they said about the Common Market too!
"the European Economic Community...was never devised to suit us, and our experience as a member of it has made it more difficult for us to deal with our economic and industrial problems."
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So, that budget, Air-Hair-Lair (2), where Sir Geoffrey Howe advised the nation, contradicting all of those denials made by the Tories in the 1979 General Election campaign, that he was doubling VAT from 8% to 15% didn't really happen! Amazing how the mind plays such tricks!
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Nick
There was another slip - in both the Chancellor's speech and all the official Treasury documents.
He forecast GDP growth for 2008 as +0.75% - and said that this assumed a contraction inthe current Q4.
But so far in 2008 the figures have been +0.3% in Q1, nil on Q2, and -0.5% in Q3.
This does not add up.
They must have meant to say -0.75% for 2008 rather than +0.75%.
Why has thos not been noticed? Please raise it. It is a fundamental presentation error.
By the way, I work for a large worldwide bank and internally we consider his projections for 2009 and 2010 as extremely optimistic. It could be much worse.
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Mr Cameron asks whether the 58% figure for the national debt as a proportion of GDP is the same as under Labour in the 1970s. Mr Brown says he is sick of having to deliver "an economic lecture every week" to Mr Cameron
OOOH tetchy
Dave hit the nerve
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Nick why do you just say whatever Labour's PR tell you.
Don't you have your own brain? Why don't you question the government instead of being their voice. Isn't that what the media is there for, to speak for the people.
You really are showing yourself to be so biased after every blog you post
Shame on you
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So Browns answer to EVERY Question today was " The tories would do nothing".
If that is the best he can over he should not "Do nothing" himself
The something he should be doing is RESIGNING and CALLING an election
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Do they consider the cost of businesses changing every price tag, altering their computer systems/websites/invoices and accounting practices?
The businesses that only show vat inclusive prices will not drop prices, this will not help the consumer.
Why not just rise the lower tax band again (that was easy to implement for businesses)
and then implement a higher tax rate, this will take the preasure of low earners, and not effect higher earners much if done right.
The government clearly has no idea of how to manage money, we need some people with real business knowledge to trim the fat of the government...
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BBC political editor Nick Robinson tells BBC Two's Daily Politics says Mr Brown went out of his way to say he would never raise VAT as prime minister and was trying to "kill the notion" that he has been privately trying to arrange doing so.
Nick you got this wrong unless of course you and Brown are admitting that Brown wont PM in 13 months time when VAT rises from 15% back to 17.5%
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My word - the PM's witty repartee is quite breathtaking. At evry charge laid against him by the Tories, his response is to ignore the question and call the Tories the "do nothing" party. Such a towering intellect!!
Isn't it just a little scary that this is the man who is passing on to my 3 month old grand daughter a staggering mountain of debt.
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The VAT reduction is totally the wrong way to go about the problem in my opinion. If passed on to the consumer (which is by no means certain as some commenters have pointed out) it should provide a small boost to consumption which will help the economy in the short term.
BUT the main problem with our economy over the past few years has been that the amount we consume has been rising far quicker than the amount we produce causing the huge private debt explosion which has to be paid back at some point ie now.
Measures to encourage more consumption, more borrowing and to get house prices rising at silly levels again will just reinflate the bubble and delay the day of reckoning, of course a collapse in consumption wouldn't be good but at worst a small drop might take us back to the levels of 2005 or 2006, hardly a disaster.
What we need to do is to encourage PRODUCTION in the UK so that we can AFFORD to consume more over the longer term. A cut in VAT will affect prices of both British made products and imports equally, my preferred alternative of cutting employers and employees national insurance contributions would cut costs for British businesses, thereby encouraging jobs and production here, it would make our exports more competitive and would put still put some money into the pockets of consumers to maintain consumption levels.
My beermat calculations suggest that if the chancellor has decided that he has £15bn to 'give away', he could have reduced employers contributions from 12.8% to 10.8% and employee's contributions from 11% to 10%. As this would also mean a big wage cost saving for public sector bodies such as councils, the NHS etc, this money could be recycled into frontline services and some of their funding increase for next year clawed back to improve government finances. (Or alternatively, this saving could be taken into account to offer slightly bigger NI cuts.)
Of course the public finances should have been in much better condition to start with and we wouldn't be in this mess, several years of relatively strong growth should have left us with several years of budget surpluses and more room for manoeuvre much like say Germany or Canada have. A tighter fiscal policy over the past few years might have also helped to avoid the worst excesses of the housing bubble.
The increases in funding to the health and education sectors should have been more gradual, this would have meant the money could been spent effectively rather than wasted as some has and the public purse would not have been so strained.
Longer term once the immediate downturn is over, I would even consider putting up VAT to 20% to pay for more direct tax cuts to boost our competitiveness. Low income earners spend a higher % of their money on zero-rated and exempt products anyway so they would not be hit as hard as some claim and an increase in the basic pension could help those people who don't pay NI anyway cope with the small price increases that would result from this policy.
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30 MyNewsReview
"What happened to the British Spirit? Isn't this a time to club together, to work for the common good and ensure survival for all?
I see Britain as a proud nation with creative thinkers, hard-workers and a social conscious. We can be a country to help lead Europe out of recession. We have some of the best economic minds and politically astute people in charge."
I agree with the first bit, but not the second bit. There is a great british spirit, and I think a willingness to all club together to get things sorted out. The problem is that the people in charge are still doing things which are mind-blowingly stupid and which just make things a lot worse.
So, I think we'd all be willing to work together, but you need the people in charge to know what they're doing. It's no good blindly supporting the people in charge when they're doing everything they can to destroy us.
Negative comments would begin to disappear I think if the people in charge had any idea what they were doing; the negative comments are going on not necessarily because we're in a bad situation now, but because the people in charge are actively making it worse.
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What has become patently clear after the last forty eight hours is the underlying motive for the savage attack on George Osborne from Mandelson and Alistair Campbell.
Newlabour were reeling after his attack on the PBR on Tuesday and had clearly not expected such a savaging from someone they had hoped to silence.
Now that Osbornme is back in the ascendancy, we can expect more of the newlabour economic mirage to unravel as it is doing with these VAT revelations today.
The simple fact is the tories proposed cuts of 37bn from public secotr spending and newlanour opposed it. Now newlabour are pickpocketing this policy and proosing 37bn of cuts themselves.
The governemnt is all over the place, reeling form blow after blow raining down on it form the opposition, from the economy and form the truculent banking sector.
They simply can't govern and the tories will now steadily rise again to take over a bankrupt country as the Great British public; resourceful, hard working and honest as they are, reject newlabour for the pack of idealogically doomed fakes that they are.
Call an election
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BBC political editor Nick Robinson tells Daily Politics Mr Brown could do better in a "crisis election" in the near future than a contest in the longer term. Charles Clarke says Mr Brown should announce today that he will not go to the country until 2010. Ken Clarke says he thinks the PM wants to have an election in 2009.
Nick tell us is this another breifing that you have had before parliament
When is the election Nick
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For far too long the banks have been falling over themselves to entice people to take out huge loans they can't afford. Now Mervyn King wants the Banks to resume 'normal' lending.
The Bank of England needs a proper Bank Manger like Captain Mainwaring who understood the need for sensible financial management.
The idea that when you are deeply in debt, you can make things better by spending even more is "sheer folly. We're all doomed...."
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38 mrxavia
If anyone does want to pass on the vat reduction, it'd be a decrease of 2.13% by the way. So here's a big warning to retailers who are thinking of passing it on...
DO NOT REDUCE YOUR PRICES BY 2.5% - YOU WILL LOSE MONEY!
Copied from a techie forum:
"I've just worked it out; if your price holds the vat inclusive figure, then if you wanted to pass on the full vat reduction you'd need to multiply your current price by a factor of 0.9787 (1.15/1.175) to end up with a vat inclusive price where vat changes from 17.5 to 15% (or put it another way, reduce your prices by 2.13%)"
(similar logic also takes effect when it comes to reverting back to a higher level; don't just increase your prices by the vat rate increase)
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Re #21..
Retailers are going to pocket the differential of 2.5% on he VAT reduction to help pay for the Employer NI increases and copy the Govt. example of raising base prices to cover the delta as per alcohol, tobacco and petrol.. what's good for the goose this xmas et al...
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The problem with a tax cut is it seems to be temporary. The tax rises seem to be permanent. So 1% extra will cause lasting problems - in this climate of cut throat sales, the 2.5% will do nothing. Does Darling (guffaw) and the organ grinder Brown do their own shopping? Can someone do the VAT changes calculations on the John Lewis List for me so I can see what my taxes will get cushy MPs for their tax funded second homes?
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You know when the opposition deliver the goods... when either:
a) Brown says "I will take no lectures..."
and reels off the tractor statistics.
It's really good direct hit when...
a2) 'I will take no lectures and he flags up Cameron was there at Black Wednesday.
It's decimated his argument and...
a3) "I will take no lectures" and Brown has to resort to quoting back the Thatcher era.
or
b) Labour do exactly what the opposition say they should do with the line "we were planning this all along."
or
c) a Labour policy announcement has several opposition policies in it, in various states of 'semantically mangled' prose.
So with the VAT thing....
Brown might as well had a 'Kick me' on his back.
Even Mandy has thrown the contents of his handbag all over the floor.
So there has to be truth in it...
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#30.
The British Spirit was strangled to death when Labour:
a) devolved government.
b) labelled everyone into their little groups with tags like "hard working families" or 'middle Britain".
c) favoured one section of society than another.
There is no Britain.
It's currently broken.
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What's the big deal? The government works through all the options, takes into consideration expert opinion on the impact of various options and then decides what to do. I just don't see how this is even vaguely a story. Would it be better if the government didn't look at all the options? The fuss at PMQs looked like a standard piece of cul-de-sac debate - pointless.
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So there we have it! the tory do nothing party, with the do nothing attitude.
While the government continue to work hard for the people with a reduction in Value Added Tax, an increase in family tax,more pressure on the banks to lend and restore confidence, and last but not least a price war in the food stores, with weekly shopping coming down in some stores by up to 40% and theres more with oil now two thirds cheaper than what it was, massive pressure on the energy companies to lower theirs rates.
Yes indeed labour working for the whole nation, while the tories with the NO PLAN play politics in a very serious time.
Wake up clueless rich kids and stop flip/flopping all over the shop.
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"But did he originally plan to go further?"
Well yes Nick. YOU TOLD US remember? Yesterday. You were told that they considered it and then dropped it. In fact you and Peston were told. You then told us that it was all fine as it was published and available online. Then today Labour backtracks and says it was a mistake. Oops! Sloppy briefing by HQ to Nick and Robert.
"plan to increase VAT to 18.5% was dropped as late as last Friday. It followed what I'm told was a lively debate between Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling although both sides insist there was no row."
Did Gordon tell you on Saturday then?
"I have been told by one apparently well informed source that the Treasury were considering a further VAT rise to 20% in 2012."
But you were told before the idea was dropped?
Nick I like you but this is one hell of a weird version of events.
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derekbarber.
Do nothing party? The 'getting rid of newlabour party' will do quite enough for most of us right now thanks very much.
Call an election.
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derek. Your post is the type of reaction that makes us the laughing stock in Europe. read some foreign papers and see how they are amazed at the failure of this governemnt. and then read about how they think our class obsession is silly. I am not rich. I am reasonably well off, but that is because I worked for it. I know that is amazing, but when I get up at 6 in the morning and go to work I put the hours in to make money.
If you think life is for free with your rich kids comments, then it makes sense that you vote Labour. 1 in 4 Brits on benefits (mostly disability). Largest number in Europe. It really disgusts me to read posts like yours that sem to disregard the hard work people like me put in for you to enjoy and then have the cheek to call us rich kids.
Do some work... see how it feels
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Darling and Brown are a double act, good cop bad cop.
It would be nice to think someone in Government is trying to be honest, but it is a vain hope.
The Government shows again and again it is not to be trusted.
The Labour Party will rip itself apart because the huge egos that are clashing now will look to each other for someone to blame.
Mandelson was the final nail in this Labour coffin.
The anger and bitterness is not all comming from the people, it is seething in the Labour Party.
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@51
the big deal is that the document was signed by Timms on the day of the PBR so the tax change is going to happen if Labour get back in and they should have announced it
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#52
Ooh, good job I'm sat down.
For a start, a Conservative government would have already:
1. Frozen council tax (increases of 10% next year are planned)
2. Introduced cuts in corporate tax (not Labour's freeze)
3. Introduced NI deferrals (not a planned hike in them).
That's doing nothing, of course it is.
Oh, and I forgot.
Increased the stamp duty & IHT thresholds...
As for food prices, I'm glad to see you have cottoned on that food is zero-rated for VAT.
Lastly, I'm not a child, neither am I rich (Labour have really been working for me).
As for flip-flops.... too cold this time of year for me.
Perhaps though you could explain to me?
Why Brown is cutting government spending after 2011 more than the Conservatives planned to?
Why is Brown hiding details of the tax rises to come?
Yeah, he's working hard - saving his own neck.
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How much more of this 'the tories would do nothing' rubbish can we take - it's clear that this is going to be the thrust of Labour's pre-election strategy.
Brown is an habitual liar but the Tories don't seem able to counter this by articulately reinforcing the actions they have proposed - come on, get a grip!
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51 1238kmh
"What's the big deal? The government works through all the options, takes into consideration expert opinion on the impact of various options and then decides what to do."
It's good that they were thinking of all options, but it's bad that they didn't consider the impact of those options (or if they did think about them they must have developed a deliberate scorched earth policy)
The vat rate reduction defies all logic; nothing about it is good. Nobody's going to pass it onto customers, it costs tax payers massively, and most of the profit for it will (as other people have said) be eaten up by the subsequent increases in employer/employee national insurance and the costs of changing their systems etc. It simply makes no sense at all; it costs tons of money, yet doesn't stimulate demand or give retailers much of a boost either profit-wise.
It's quite mad; they obviously didn't speak to any small/medium size retailers about it, or potential customers. It just makes no sense.
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Today's London Evening Standard has a pop at both Nick Robinson and Peston for bias in favour of the government.
London Evening Standard
On the subject of the VAT issue they are relatively gentle with Nick:
"The BBC's political editor Nick Robinson rushes to the defence of the Treasury."
....but far more damming about Peston:
"IS Robert Peston spinning for the Government again?
In the wake of the pre-Budget report, the BBC business editor took to the airwaves yesterday explaining that the FTSE 100 was up 9.84 per cent because the City liked the PBR.
As an avid reader points out, "the Germans must have liked it more because the Dax was up 10.34 per cent and the French Cac 40 was up 10.09 per cent. In fact, around the world stock markets were up... nothing to do with the bail-out of the world's biggest bank Citigroup by the Yanks?"
Even Gordon himself likes to blame all our economic fluctuations on the Americans."
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@52
Well spun Mr Barker, you've sucked it up hook line and sinker just as you were expected to.
No plan blah blah blah, How many times has it been calculated you need to say that for it to become true. You must be well on your way.
Tax Bombshell on the way
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#22 the-real-truth
It looks like the Bundestag is blessed with a government with more than 10 brain cells between them unlike the UK's current government.
The Germans are of course absolutely right. Keynesian stimuli didn't work in the 1970s and thay won't work now. All we are doing is delaying the inevitable which will be more severe the longer we put it off.
At least this will stop stupid Labour MPs saying all the world opinion is with them and only the Tories don't think a stimulus is needed. What utter rubbish.
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"52 - Yes indeed labour working for the whole nation, while the tories with the NO PLAN play politics in a very serious time."
Derek, I guess you believe anything if gordon says it enough time.
Labour are only working for their core voters.
As an IT consultant they've just shafted me for around £1000 a year with their vat giveaway, by dropping 2.5% from what I charge but only dropping 1.5% from what I pay due to the flat rate scheme.
Labour don't care about the economy, only about getting simple people to vote for them.
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#58 phaetonflanflinger
..don't forget abolishing ID cards...!!
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I'm sorry Nick, but your rather strange comment below does not hold:
"However, since it is a regressive tax - the poor spend a greater proportion of their income than the rich - it would not fit into Labour's "fairness" agenda. It was, after all, Margaret Thatcher's policy in 1979 to cut income tax and raise VAT."
So, if the glorious Labour goverment were so progressive with their taxes why indeed have they time and time again NOT taxed at the margin and instead added duty on goods left right and centre and indeed the worst of all, the removal of the 10p basic rate, how regressive do you want to get exactly? I find your quite blatant bias somewhat amusing and also very dissapointing from the BBC.
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#55
Juggler, maybe your not to cosy with the EU
however I'm sure you could look into the borrowing rates of Italy, France, Spain and even states such as Norway, it might just surprise you how big their GDP rates are?
Look if your going to quote figs then get them right, jeez, talk about spin!
So do you consider people with cancer and sever disabilities as a waste of time and funds, Wow! brave little trotsky.
Hard work! Ha, what tosh and utter Blah you speak, WAKE UP! twinkle toes!
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#63 jonno
The Germans are of course absolutely right. Keynesian stimuli didn't work in the 1970s and thay won't work now. All we are doing is delaying the inevitable which will be more severe the longer we put it off.
Labour probably know they will lose the next election. I think this is why Gordon and Alastair are delaying the inevitable - which will become severe once the Conservatives have taken over.
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If anyone is in any doubt over the shameless cynicism of this Labour government how about this from the New York Times (and it's on the free tibet site as well) that Brown has changed Britain's position on Tibet in exchange for China giving more money to the IMF.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/opinion/25barnett.html
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The rich will pay the "lion's share" of the tax rises.
Do you believe this as well, Nick?
The 5% hike takes in £650m out of a £118bn debt!! Where's the rest coming from?
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#64
O' the brainS of I T is confused on VAT.
Try three card Bragg, you might like it and lighten up a tone on your ego.
Do you seriously believe that Osborne has any credit as a leading political figure?
A 3 hour debate on VAT, would the tories not be better spending that time on finding a "PLAN"
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Whether it's VAT or taxation this huge borrowing is going to have to be paid back somehow.
At least with VAT you can choose whether to spend or not.
With taxation there is no choice..
I guess with this rather stupid drop in the rate of VAT just introduced GB is trying to soften us all up that VAT rates can be moved up and down which makes me think the VAT rate will be used at a much higher rate in future
Or perhaps both as the projected figures he has used for the economy over the next few years are hardly realistic.
How much can you squeeze the poor taxpayer. Those that haven't left the country by then I mean?
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I have just compared the OECD forecast for UK growth in 2010 (0.9) with the Government's PBR forecast (1.5-2). This suggests the Government's forecast is at the upper end of outcomes for growth. It would be interesting to know what simulations were run through the Treasury computer, and what the projected borrowing figures would be if the OECD projection is correct. Of course the OECD forecast is itself a central projection, so again one could publish a third projection for public debt (based on lower growth).
Iraq WMD dossier. PBR.
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# 56 machinehappydays
"Darling and Brown are a double act, good cop bad cop."
Actually, it's a triple act; Brown, Darling and King
And they are all 'bad cop'.
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Gordon must be weeing his pants with joy about being able to say the word Obama every now and then.
The next G20 will be in London on April 2nd. Gordon will be re-reading yesterdays PBR the day before.
G20 Summit in London
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Well, if Gordon now says that they won't increase VAT to 18.5%, we can all breathe a sigh of relief. After all, he'd NEVER put up taxes if he promised not to, would he?
Maybe we'll find that VAT stays at 15% and then in a couple of years time they introduce 3.5% Value Added National Insurance on top.
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"However, since it is a regressive tax - the poor spend a greater proportion of their income than the rich - it would not fit into Labour's "fairness" agenda."
Sorry, but without wishing to get into whether VAT increases are a good thing or a bad thing, I'm not at all convinced about the premise that VAT is regressive. It's often said that VAT hits the poor harder than the rich, but I just don't believe it. When I was younger and at the very bottom of my career ladder, I had very little money. Such money as I had almost entirely went on food and rent, both of which are VAT, so I paid hardly any VAT.
Given that VAT is charged mainly on inessential items, I remain deeply unconvinced that VAT is regressive.
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To: derekbarker - and all the other staunch Labour supporters
As you are all gloating that Gordon and Alastair have put some money in your pockets, I wonder how long it will be before you all rush to the shops to help kick-start the economy?
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69 Ghanimah
Now that is amazing - and if true disgraceful!
That'll surely even have Labour voters spluttering into their soya milk lattes.
Seems to me that Brown knows he could well tip Britain into bankruptcy and has lined up the IMF to bail us out with what will no doubt be branded as a "fiscal stimulus" in these "extraordinary times".
Roof not fixed. Tibet sold down the river.
Thanks Labour.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Who is this idiot derek barker? Is he a comedian?
Whoever he is (or isn't) ,he clearly is completely ignorant about Economies or Economics (not the same delboy).
I guess that even the most diehard Government apologists here must be squirming with embarassment.
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derek stop twisting my words. Typical lefty. I did not say the genuinly needy did I? It amazes me how barefaced you guys are in twisting people's words. But then.. You are someone that considers Gordon Brown a good leader. I cannot expect much.
I have a friend working at the benefits office. She gets claims in for period pains! For ADD, for depression. Yes. And you know what the latest memo said: Sever backlog, award all cases.
Look you can keep your socialist state. 6 more months... and I will be living in a better country. You and your pathetic lot can have this "no work but we still want pay" state. You dream it will be like Scandinavia where as when I sent that to a friend in Stockholm who has frequently travelled to the UK I got a reply back that was mostly made up of laughing. We are the poor man again. Get used to it and don't be smug.
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Obama intends to cut out all wastage from the public sector
He intends to spend billions of dollars on job creation.
Sounds positive to me.
Doesn't sound like he's taken any notice of Gordon Brown then
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7. Agree. The 10p tax has been repaid in half. No mention of how the other half is to be dealt with or are they thinking £25 increase on the winter fuel payments which apparently all received yesterday will appease them?
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The tax rises announced in the PBR go nowhere near paying off the massive debt being accumulated under this Government. It is clear that taxes will have to go up considerably in the future to bring the PSBR back under control - increasing VAT to 20% is just one of the requirements - I anticipate the basic rate of income tax will also have to increase. Gordon Brown has trashed the country's finances - that is clear.
As an aside, here in "socialist" Denmark, VAT is levied at 25%.
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71. David IS the man with a plan but why should he tell you??? ROFL
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# 78 shellingout
"As you are all gloating that Gordon and Alastair have put some money in your pockets, I wonder how long it will be before you all rush to the shops to help kick-start the economy?"
A good point, but let's not forget whose money they are giving us...
Gordon is borrowing from our future and lending it back to us now in the present.
In other words, we are spending our own money that we haven't earned yet. So when we do earn it, we will find we have already spent it - and have to pay interest.
It's like a plot from Dr Who, with Gordon as the Master, intent on wrecking the world as we know it.
And people wonder why the country is in a mess!
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We do we put up with this guy commenting on the news on the BBC?
Why can’t the BBC just report the news?
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#22 unreal
Germany have a bigger national debt than us (60% of GDP - what "Irresponsibility Brown" proposes debt will rise to in the UK).
With this bigger debt they are obviously in a far better position to increase it further.
It's like 'economies of scale' or something I guess?
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#87 distanttraveller
I know - I'm sorry, I was being sarcastic.
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This is an interesting thing which the media, or at least those parts of it I've seen, have never bothered to mention: Mr Brown's continual failure to predict borrowing figures accurately. Suggest you check out
http://dizzythinks.net/2008/11/why-shouldnt-you-believe-brown-on.html
Just to extract a small part:
- In 2003 Mr Brown said: "borrowing for this year and future years is therefore £27 billion (2003), £24 billion (2004), £23 billion (2005), £22 billion (2006) and £22 billion (2007)."
- In 2004 he said: "borrowing for this year will fall to £34 billions (2004) and in future years fall further to £33 billions (2005), falling again to £29 billions (2006), then falling to £28 billions (2007), £24 billions (2008) and £22 billions (2009)."
- In 2005 he said: "[it] will be £34bn (2005) this year falling to £32bn (2006) next year, then falling again to £29bn (2007), falling to £27bn (2008), then to £24bn (2009) and then £22bn (2010)."
- und so weiter.
I don't have the forecast and actual figures for economic growth, but I'm reasonably certain they've always been wildy and inaccurately optimistic too.
So if Mr Brown has never managed to get the figures right before, why should we believe him (or Mr Darling) this time? I can't help feeling that borrowing will be far higher, and economic growth far lower, than the figures supplied in the PBR.
And how exactly did Mr Brown get this reputation for economic genius?
- He's never got his figures right (see above).
- He fiddles the balance sheets (PFI, Northern Rock, etc).
- He's unable to work out the effects of tax changes (abolition of 10p tax rate = no-one worse off ... err...)
- He sold off gold after making sure that the market fell as low as it could possibly get by advertising it well in advance.
- He claims he didn't see the global economic crash coming (I'm no economist, but I could see the UK was going down the pan a couple of years ago).
- Pick your own example.
My personal feeling is that Mr Darling's statement that we were in the worst state for 60 years was the pure unvarnished truth. It was very brave of him to step out of line and be absolutely honest for once. Alas, that day is long gone; it's back to "Britain is best placed to get through this recession", and other blatant lies.
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52 Derek Barker
This video will explain in an easy to understand way who is going to pay off the trillion pound debt.
Click here
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#73 John Harris
I posted this on a previous blog so apologies if you have already read it. If you have yet to read it, don't if you're suicidal.
Worth getting past the intro which summarises the PBR and getting into a critique of the borrowing projections.
The OECD forecast could be optimistic!
http://seekingalpha.com/article/107818-uk-government-debt-will-double-and-tax-rises-will-follow-tax-cuts
I am seriously worried that Labour have bartered reason for political survival.
If they have, may they never be forgiven.
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It is pointless to complain about the eventual tax rises that are being planned.
We're in a recession. Taxes would have to have been risen even if Government did NOTHING to stimulate the economy.
It's incredibly annoying for politicians to gain popularity by attacking tax rises. Even more for those that fall for it.
Once our economy is back to strength, the taxes will be affordable anyway. Their revenues will help pay for things and once we're back in good growth, we'll start saving like everyone here should have been doing the past 10 years.
Also, for this silly sentiment of "what our future generations will pay". Look at what this current generation is paying for. That's right, the past. It will be a common staple until we have wiped out all national debt, in which interest rates can be 0 and free to borrow in relative safety.
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So New Labour is dead.
What has surely died during this economic crisis is Thatcher/Reaganomics.
Remember Financial Services Act and the rush to sell off boring mutaual building societies?
I got my first mortgage with the Bradford and Bingley and a few years later got some unwanted shares. So what happened to the dynamic bank that was so created. They have had to be bailed out by the taxpayer.
Rember the inefficient nationalised industries that were sold to a public that already owned them?
The likes of British Gas and the energy and water companies are ll busy ripping us off by exploiting their monopoly positions.
In fact the irresponsible and unregulated greed that Thatcher and Reagan unleashed and embraced has caused this crisis.
The truth is that the Tories still think this is the way to run an economy. Labour have belatedly woken up to the need to regulate and tame private greed and realised they have been far to timid in tackling the abuses.
Better their instincts however timidly implemented than those of the Tories.
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Nick, this piece is an excellent example of why so many of us now read Guido and Ian Dale. At least they are open about their bias.
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Nick,
Maybe you could consider an article/blog on todays publication of political donations.
Once again I believe the LAW has been broken -is it or is it not illegal to accept a donation from a non-domicile resident outside of the UK NOT subject to UK Taxation?
In which case you or one of your colleagues may like to investigate a donation of £650,137.00 made to the Conservative Party by a company called Bearwood Consultancy Services -who are apparently based in Wokingham in Berkshire.
It appears from Company records that this is a shadow company set up merely to make political donations on behalf of an individual called Michael Ashcroft - who is non-resident in the UK?
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#2
To be fair (and as a Conservative I must be fair!) Nick is actually right. The luxury rate of VAT was cut from 25% to 12.5% in 1976. Geoffrey Howe's first budget in 1997 indeed harmonised the two tax rates, increasing the standard rate from 8% to 15% and the luxury rate from 12.5% to 15%. He reduced income tax in the same budget.
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#82
Bettlejuice or juggler, whatever! didn't you know that employment is at record levels compared to the last tory government.
I take it you found out some scandinavian states have GDP growth of over 60%
So what is your prize goal here, to have interests rates at 15% mass unemployment
Local schools closed, ever state schools to opt out of LEA's public services to be slashed.....ect...ect...
Is that the silent PLAN.
By the way, do you just bail-out when things dont go your way, sad little kid, Eh.
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Re: 94. At 2:31pm on 26 Nov 2008, Hiddenranbir wrote:
"It is pointless to complain about the eventual tax rises that are being planned.
We're in a recession. Taxes would have to have been risen even if Government did NOTHING to stimulate the economy."
Up to a point. The point being that about a third of the tax revenue Brown has been squandering these past few years, has been generated by the City of London. That source of revenue has dried up and will never return to its previous levels (new banking regulation will see to that).
So, in order to attempt to balance the books, there are going to have to be hefty tax rises for all, combined with spending cuts. People have to understand - given where we are, standards of living and public services have only one way to go - down!
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#92
Jonathan, did your easy fingers, find an easy way for you to make another easy mistake.
Keep up old man, you and I may find a common bond.
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@89
I think you should read this and start reassessing your picture
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7746642.stm
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#81
Good grief, what a patsy you are?
Have you any relevant material to add
or do you just say "DONTNEEDGRIEF"
laugh.....laugh.....laugh......................
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Brown's comments about the " do nothing Tories " gleefully repeated by our dear Mr Robinson is just a wee bit irrelevant to the present arguments. Why should , or would the Tories have to do ,or be expected to do anything. It's not their problem, it's a problem made in Britain by the incompetence of Gordon Brown and Nu Labour, " though he'd like the country to think it was all down to global factors. Brown dug Britain into a financial hole, and yesterday's fiasco of lies and hidden agendas will do little to help. Even the pet governor of the bank of England made a half hearted attempt to put a gloss on it but didn't appear in any way convincing. Now Brown is going to put pressure on the banks to take on more bad debt, though short of nationalising every bank in the country, I don't know how he's going to achieve that.
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The truth is that the Tories still think this is the way to run an economy. Labour have belatedly woken up to the need to regulate and tame private greed and realised they have been far to timid in tackling the abuses.
Better their instincts however timidly implemented than those of the Tories.
The madness continues.
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@99
Derek
Find some new Rhetoric, No one cares about the old stuff anymore, after all if the people had memories larger than a gold fish the lefties would never have been elected in 97
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The choice between the two parties come next election is becoming clear. As is the political battlegrounds.
Labour will be on a much higher Tax maintain public spending manifesto. Problem with that is many people are fed up with the level of taxation, lack of fresh ideas and there is the feeling that money is wasted on the public sector. Labour will be defensless against quite dry analytical claims that the taxation proposed will still not cover the spending and debt repayment. They will need to be open and honest and lay out a tax plan that completely covers the black holes and bring off balance liabilities onto the balance sheet.
The Tories on the other hand will play into the maintain/slightly raise tax and reduce public spending manifesto. Problem here is the electorate are squeemish when it comes to public sector custs and the number of people who now depend on public sector spending. Tories will be open to more emotive attacks to visions of hospitals and schools running out of money - people on guerneys out on the street. They need to absolutley and crisply lay out where, when and how much will be cut form what service.
Right now given the likely arguments and the public sector dependants I wouldn't be surprised if Labour just squeek by with a working majority for another term. However, if the SNP and PC can energise their party and grassroots we could see Labour significanly reduced in their hartlands giving the Tories a majority in westminster.
In the event of a returned Labour government, we will see Tax rises that would severly hurt the economy and maybe even reverse a recovery followed by an Orwellian survailance society. In the event of a Tory government with significant majority, the first agenda item will be fix the West Lovian question in such a way that it leans the electoral map to favour the Tories. Second item will be deep, deep public spending cuts.
The choice as they say... is yours.
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Thai army calls for new elections
Thailand's army chief asks the government to call elections and protesters to leave Bangkok's main airport as a crisis mounts.
Not long to wait before this is a reality on this sceptred isle.
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One of the standard throwaway lines of the Tories, and further referred to here, with regard to savings that can be obtained in public expenditure and alternative sources of tax cuts, is the freezing of council taxes.
Now I know that if all we read is the Daily Mail and/or the Evening Standard we might be of the blinkered view that the raison d'etre for all local authorities is the wasting of 'our' money. The alternative view is that councils provide essential housing, community care and other services (libraries, environmental health?) - some of which could perhaps be, on occasion, better managed, but all of which benefit those who have such a need.
Given the increasingly aging population and the resulting greater need for support services, added to the impetus to discharge people from hospitals into the community much sooner than has occurred in the past, increases in council tax that match inflation result in the inability of services to meet needs.
It's a very easy throwaway line to suggest council tax freezes, but this would result in a massacring of essential services, not just cuts. And these people will be the very same people who will quite rightly criticise the 10% income tax fiasco, which hurt those who are not quite as vulnerable as some of the recipients of these essential services!
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Drapes is a swag boy, all blow and no go.
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#58 flanflinger
But how would the Conservatives have paid for that while decreasing the level of borrowing?
Isn't the Conservative view that the deficit should remain the same size as it is and not increase, and debt should increase a lot more slowly (perhaps up to 45% of GDP)? Or are we arguing between 57% GDP and 58% GDP (i.e. Conservatives only disagree with the additional stimulus given by the policy changes in the PBR and not the operation of automatic stabilisers)?
Spending cuts would have had to have been far larger than the value of the tax cuts to realise this vision (and to restrict the impact of automatic stabilisers in the economy to ensure borrowing does not increase).
.
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#106
Are you just comfortable and numb or are the gold fish in your tank boring you?
Mr Pink.....
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re: 102 Pot_Kettle
That's a fascinating link, and is something I've been trying to find for ages (ie debt as a proportion of gdp over the years)
It shows the natural cycles pre-1997 quite well, and also shows that labour inherited a balance from the tories when they started and for the first couple of years (when they were still working to tory spending plans) things were going quite well.
Then, as soon as they got away from tory spending plans and just let-loose firing money in every direction without any thought it all, the deficit has gradually grown even during a boom, and because of Brown's weird refusal to admit that economic cycles actually exist it illustrates what happens when you throw good money after bad (ie an upward spiral in debt, ending in total bankruptcy).
Considering that those 2008+ figures are based on labour growth estimates (which are a joke) and also don't include most of the debt, the graph for real debt would be off the scale.
This is what happens (an upward spiral of debt ending in bankruptcy) when the man in charge of the money (ie brown) point blank refuses to accept that economic cycles do actually exist and follows the logic that you need to keep creating ever-increasing debt.
He's like the man who bets on red and doubles his stake at the roulette table every time it comes up black thinking that he'll always end up winning. The problem is that the table has green double-zeroes all over it in this instance, so his doubling-up gambling stake has now reached a trillion and the red squares have all gone.
We're finished. We need an election immediately.
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cocteau8@109
Council taxes have risen because the govt has consistently reduced its support - particularly in the south east, where everyone's deemed to be rich - HAH. Maybe the Conservatives will increase funding to a level where council taxes can be stabilised. Increased council taxes don't affect the poor in rented accommodation because they can claim Council Tax Benefit. If they're trying to buy their home, they can't claim, which is a little unfair.
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112 derek
And the point of that is?
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Re #2, Air-Hair-Lair, just because you're partisan is no excuse for getting your facts wrong. As #98 pointed out you have your VAT history rather muddled up and secondly you seem to forget the last severe recession (ejection from the ERM and all that) this country had was whilst the Conservatives were in power and that buffoon Norman Lamont was chancellor.
Now I'm not saying that was the cause - but I am saying I am not so partisan I forget history and pretend that the Tories must somehow be the saviour of the world economy because things were so great under the last Conservative government!
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Post 89 Germany is the World's largest exporter; it generally runs a current account surplus as well. As such it is more than able to pay its debts.
Foreigners seem to want to buy BMW, Volkswagen and Mercedes cars. Also they buy lots of things sold by other companies such as Siemens; Bosch; Adidas and many other household names.
The UK meanwhile has decimated its manufacturing base and runs a very heavy current account deficit.
Put bluntly the Germans are repaying their debt and people have confidence they can continue to repay it. The UK however is increasing its debt and no one knows how we are going to pay it back.
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Just watched Vince Cable's speech on the Pre-Budget Report emergency debate. Brilliant, immensely well-received, and a marked contrast to the school-playground atmosphere of the opening hour - notably the puerile party-politics from the Shadow Chancellor.
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#111.
Well, not only did Cameron say that they would slow the growth in spending now (not 2011) but also they would identify areas of waste to finance this.
Met with howls of 'Tory cuts'.
Even the BBC couldn't resist.
Isn't it odd the BBC haven't mentioned Labour spending growth in the PBR is not only lower but in real terms, a spending freeze?
How odd.
It's also odd that in 2005, the government when faced with a Tory proposal to streamline government departments as part of a manifesto pledge; Brown stood up and announced a reduction in 70,000 posts and that all the waste had been identified.
Roll to 2008 and suddenly a week after the Tories, Labour announce an even slower growth in government spending and there is another 5bn of efficiency savings to be found.
How strange.
I'd also wager it's far more than 5bn. The Taxpayer Alliance have identified 100bn.
Also, I've detailed here before that the difference between Labour borrowing and Conservative borrowing is as much as 5% GDP up to 2011.
In terms of the automatic stabilisers, pre-empting these by making it cheaper for firms to employ staff (by reducing corporation tax and NI) is to keep people paying taxes rather than government paying welfare.
Which is certainly better than Labour's plan.
2.5% off VAT is a 'eye-catching initiative' and it's been found out, it does nothing for families autonomous expenditure (which if lowered would put more money in pockets to spend) because Labour have levied all the duty to cancel out all the VAT cut.
Again, not the right policy.
There is little room for manoeuvre for either party so it's a question of credibility.
Labour has none when it comes to reducing the cost of the state and lowering borrowing. The first two years of this administration - they followed Tory plans.
The Tories do have an impressive track record.
No time for a novice eh?
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"I also said that while VAT would come down to 15% it would return to its 17.5% rate at the end of 2009.
"That is the Government's position, it remains the Government's position."
Mr Darling said he asked the Treasury's Permanent Secretary to investigate after he saw reports that a document containing the 18.5% figure had been posted on a website and signed by Mr Timms.
"What I found was this: that the Financial Secretary had not, in fact signed that document.
"It transpires that someone within either the Treasury or HM Revenue and Customs had typed the Financial Secretary's name alongside an impact assessment which he did not know about, had not seen and he'd never authorised."
The government intends to reduce VAT as it stated.
The Financial Secretary had not signed the document.
The Independent.
Good job I couldn't be bothered to comment earlier. This topic had the smack of headline chasing about it and the hysterical bile from the Tory crowd has become routine. The real facts are out and that's comment enough.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
@106 Draper
I'll take that to mean you agree with me then
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@117
we have become the Pikey of Europe
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re: 109 Cocteau8
Council tax is skewed wildly in favour of labour voters/councils due to the funding formula used.
Money is physically taken away from non-labour councils by central government (they're reducing non-labour council funding not just in "real terms" but in absolute terms)
I hope the tories balance this up a bit and start giving people a fairer share of the burden. At the moment a pensioner living in a one-bedroom bungalow where I live will be paying about £1200 a year in council tax.
The only reason they're not paying £1500 a year is because our non-labour council has managed to actually save some money through efficiencies.
We're all being bled dry at the expense of "core" labour voters who are getting monumental amounts of cash for not doing anything.
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Delboy @103.
Relax dear boy...I am not about to give you a lesson in Economics (as your Lord and Master likes to say)...because it would be utterly pointless to waste my time on someone who is incapable of learning from it.
However,if you really believe all that guff you've been spouting over the past couple of days ..e.g. VAT reductions on food ...40% lower shopping bills..60% increases in GDP (over what period??) ,whilst ignoring ,amongst other things, increases in fuel duty,which have a far wider effect on prices than a VAT reduction on items which do not attract VAT anyway..then fine..be happy...
But..just keep your little fantasy World to yourself,please.
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/property_and_mortgages/article5237555.ece
oh dear...looks like Lord Mantelpiece still can't have his wicked way with the banks.
When are newlabour actually going to start governing?
They came to power and carried out the tories spending plans for their first term of office.
Then Tony Blair backed away from reform of the public sector and claimed he alway wished he'd gone further.
They then deregulated further the already deregulated financial sector and forgot to oversee the regulator.
By no any private sector management team would have been fired.
Now they have taken over Northern Rock and can't even be bothered to regulate that.
What a complete shower of a non government.
Call an election
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@120
Good job I couldn't be bothered to comment earlier.
I knew there was something missing from the debate.
Hogwash Zen veiwpoint So what does Zen say about smoke and fire
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Love the comment about Thatcher. Nick just had to get that in. Very current.
At last election the Tories said that they could cut spending, taxes and borrowing. They said that they could do this without damaging services, simply by increasing the amount of money saved through greater efficiency.
Gordon Brown told the Commons that an independent review had shown that not a penny more could be found in savings without damaging services. This was, in fact, Labour's central election claim.
And then, on Monday, guess what? The Chancellor announced that, lo and behold, another independent review had found that there were greater savings that could be made after all.
Well, fancy that.
Who would have thought it.
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From here in Liverpool this seems like a westminster village story- you would hope all the alternatives were considered in full before a final decision was made
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120 Charles_E_Hardwidge
ok, so in that case can you explain where the huge black-hole has come from in their current books? ie if labour were telling the truth and didn't simply lie about the pending raise, why don't the books addup?
Even Nick Robinson is reporting the black-hole which by strange coincidence would have been filled-in if that vat rise took effect.
Where's all that missing debt/tax-rises gone? Did they just press the wrong buttons on their calculators and publish the wrong amounts?
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VAT, as we ought to all know, stands for Value Added Tax. It is a tax paid on 'luxury' goods, those which are not essential to our survival where there is a value add (although I'm sure that one or two might argue that their sexy new digital television is indeed essential to their survival). I say this, because by suggesting that 'the poor pay for it' more than the rich would lead me to believe that they are spending beyond their means in the first place. You don't pay VAT on the things you need to survive: food and rent.
That established, Nick, I refer to your comment: "...it would not fit into Labour's "fairness" agenda. It was, after all, Margaret Thatcher's policy in 1979 to cut income tax and raise VAT."
Does this not neatly encapsulate the problem that we face? New Labour are encouraging the nation to spend their way out of a recession. As I recall, there is a rather a lot of reference to a certain President Bush telling the Americans to go out and spend after 9/11. That reference being his advise is what landed us in this credit-fuelled debt crisis in the first place.
The responsible approach should be to review government spending and focus on driving cost-reductions and greater efficiency in the public sector, for example through better trained and qualified staff, rather than 'reviews' leading to more expensive 'managers'.
We should not be looking to 'kick-start' the banks into lending more, or to spend more ourselves. However painful an economic contraction might be, we as consumers need to be responsible with our money, and in return the government - if it wishes to stimulate the economy - should instead look at improving infrastructure where it requires improvement (not where it grabs headlines).
The Conservative party landed itself with an unenviable reputation because it took a firm stance and made the tough decisions needed to recover our economy after 1979. The time was right for change in 1997, however, I fear that the change we got was not responsible with the trust we invested in it. We may yet see history repeating, such as it is.
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Delboy at 112..
"Are you just comfortable and numb or are the gold fish in your tank boring you?
Mr Pink..... "
Good grief..he can't even get that right..
..How about. "the lunatic is on the grass"
Far more appropriate for you my friend.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. As a vigorous critic of this failing Government I fail to see how this topic has any relevance. More important is the fact that 85% of people in a survey today said that The VAT reduction etc. will have no influence on their spending at all. This thread is a complete red herring!
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Scotch Whisky had duty raised along with the reduction of VAT. The dynamic duo got their simple arithmetic wrong, as it meant that whisky would be more expensive! Suffice to say a U turn was performed immediately! If something this simple was wrong, then what else is totally incorrect?
Does anyone know if the new 15% rate only applies to the UK or does it also apply to exporting to the European Union. If different rates apply it will play havoc with I.T. systems.....
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#107
It makes Vince Cable and the Lib-Dems look more attractive all the time! Not that the LDs would be able to wave any magic wand either, we're in a mess whoever is in power but at least VC seems more astute than most in the Commons.
It's just a shame that our unrepresentative electoral system keeps the same two parties in power in perpetuity (even giving comfortable absolute majorities to parties with only 35% of the popular vote) and forces people to vote 'tactically' for parties they don't really like if they want their vote to count for something.
As those same said two parties are the only people with the power to change the system though I wouldn't hold your breath. Under the UK electoral system, genuine democracy is just an illusion and always has been.
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You may be interested in what's happening with the Flat Rate VAT Scheme for small businesses.
The new flat rates, published in Annex E of www.hmrc.gov.uk/pbr2008/vat-guide-det.pdf , sets out the new flat rates for use by small businesses. However, instead of reducing flat rates by the correct amount of 1.85 per cent, they have only done so by only 1.5 per cent.
In fact, it appears that HMRC has rounded the new rates up by 0.35 per cent.
For example, the old flat rate for "Computer & IT Consultancy or Data Processing" was 13%. My calculation is that the new rate should be 1.85% lower (this is actually a general rule for all flat rates - see calculation below), i.e. 11.15%. But the new published rate is actually 11.5%
It seems that the difference of 0.35% is just an increase in VAT flat rates by stealth, of around 400 pounds a year on small businesses with a turnover of say 100,000 pounds a year. So much for HMRC’s helping hand for small businesses!
Surely in this electronic age HMRC should be able to work with flat rates to two decimal places, so why have they rounded to the nearest half per cent?
Or do we have to conclude that the 400 pounds a year is just another stealth tax?
---
Working out new flat rates that are equivalent to old flat rates
Use:
OVR = old vat rate = 0.175
NVR = new vat rate = 0.15
OFR = old flat rate = 0.13
NFR = new flat rate
Here goes:
Full amount of VAT = OVR x NetInvoiceValue
Flat Rate VAT = OFR x (1+OVR) x NetInvoiceValue
Subtracting the above gives:
Saving using Flat Rate = (OVR - OFR x (1+OVR)) x NetInvoiceValue
Divide by 1+OVR gives:
Corresponding net expenses of [ OVR/(1+OVR) - OFR ] x NetInvoiceValue
The equivalence is based on the corresponding net expenses being the same in old and new world. So equate to same thing in new world:
[ OVR/(1+OVR) - OFR ] x NetInvoiceValue = [ NVR/(1+NVR) - NFR ] x NetInvoiceValue
Now start solving for NFR, actually easier than it looks:
OVR/(1+OVR) - OFR = NVR/(1+NVR) - NFR
So
NFR = OFR + NVR/(1+NVR) - OVR/(1+OVR)
Nice simple formula! Plug in the vat rates, and you get:
NFR = OFR - 0.01850139
So in percentage terms
NFR = OFR less a hair over 1.85%
and
13% should drop to 11.15%
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Ref PammyAnny (114) - 'Increased council taxes don't affect the poor in rented accommodation because they can claim Council Tax Benefit.'
And your point is? That they shouldn't receive benefits?
Additionally, you suggest that perhaps the Tories would compensate local authorities of the non-Labour kind (the vast majority nowadays, I think you'll find!) for freezing council tax, as suggested by the boy-genius Osbourne. I somehow suspect that that was not what Georgie had in mind when he was making this suggestion, seeing the tax saving through council tax cuts, but not the compenssatory increase in public spending through compensation offered to local authorities put in dire straits by such a freeze.
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I just tuned into the emergency debate
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/bbc_parliament/default.stm
Some wind-bag from Ellesmere Port and Neston banging on. I'm not sure how this debate will hold the government to account.
I'm guessing the government will force through tax changes they want and that they can and will ignore whatever they wish to. Despite the negative impact on the country.
Anyone know what this emergency debate might achieve?
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Didnt take long for the first zen referal of the day
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If we listen to Gordon Brown then the Tories are a "Do Nothing" party, however if we listen to what was actually said in the PBR it seems that New Labour are the "Do Nothing Useful" party.
It seems that most people don't think the big give away (reduction in VAT) will encourage them to spend more - we are in a recession most people are looking to save money (in case the worst happens and they need it later) and not spend it on luxuries.
The best suggestion was from the Lib Dems - give the people more of their hard earned money, if they are taking home more money every month they might be more encouraged to spend a little more!
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Clarification has already been issued about the tax changes on Scotch.
Naturally it's not simple. VAT is based on cost, but the duty is based on alcoholic content, so changes have had to be written to preserve the Scottish national industry from the ruin inflicted by an ill thought out government measure.
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Lets not beat around the bush
Brown is a liar
Blair was a liar
and Nick Robinson is the most biased reporter in the media. Does he even read the posts made by the Great British public, or is he blinded to the truth just like unelected Brown
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#117 Ian-the-Chopper
Very lucidly put.
You are right - it is not only the level of national debt that matters (although with the amount of debt Brown has taken off the balance sheet ours is probably up around 100% of GDP) but also the budget surplus /deficit. If a country is in surplus then it is able to pay off the debt straight away. This gives it a momentum going into the recession. The UK, on the other hand, has a huge deficit. This is why it will be a while before we even begin to start paying the national debt off, by which time it will have reached a much higher figure.
Your point on manufacturing is also very true. I am not sure decimated is the word I would use to describe British manufacturing but it is certainly not as strong as Germany's.
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Nick,
Please can you report on the missing money?
"The Conservatives say there is a "black hole" in the government's plans to repay record borrowing, which would have been filled by a 1% VAT rise."
This is an awful lot of money, and so far when asked about it all that Brown's said is "you are the do nothing party", he hasn't actually answered the question of where all that money's gone.
The BBC also hasn't questioned anyone on it yet, please can you find out where this money has gone?
It seems to me that there are 3 possibilities:
1) The tories are lying and there isn't a black-hole
2) Labour are lying about the vat rise to 18.5%
3) Labour got their sums wrong and simply missed the odd hundred billion or so when they got their calculators out.
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Q:What muppet would go shopping 2 days before a VAT drop of 2.5%
A: The chancellor
A colleague just told me he heard Darling on the Radio this morning saying that he had been busy and hadnt been able to get to the shops recently so he was planning to go this Saturday.
And this guy is in charge!
So either he is foolishly wasting his own money or worse still he is buying stuff from the John Lewis list that he is planning to claim back from us Taxpayers
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So people in decision making positions are not allowed to try different scenarios till they find one that will do the job?
The trouble with Cameron is that he:
a) doesn't have the foggiest
b) relishes anything he can be nasty about hoping to fool the British public.
I am disliking the Tory front bench more and more - which is a pity since I think few of Labours are up to much.
We are being forced to decide between disorganisation on the Labour side, and a punch of school bullies on the Tory side.
And when it comes to the Lib Dems, we have a party who rarely rolls out their leader as Vince Cable is better. Madness.
If our country falls over, the politicians will never notice as they are far too busy slandering each other.
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Europe are launching a 200 billion euro fiscal stimulus.
Does anyone know if we get a share of this in the UK?
I see the EU are using the stimulus to promote Car Manufacturing and Construction. I bet they won't be frittering the billions of stimulus on some sort of VAT stunt (which will have no effect as a stimulus)
http://www.citywire.co.uk/personal/-/news/money-property-and-tax/content.aspx?ID=322225
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Nick,
we have the pictures of Gordon picking his nose, that was good. Today, however, there was a brilliant moment when the cameras flashed over to Gordon when Cameron was asking a question and Brown was caught just waving his hands in distain as the question was asked.
I personally think that this should be shown again because the man doesn't care at all about 'hard working families' or the dead in Afghanistan. He is a disgrace to the office of Prime Minister.
I thought that it was also very interesting that he didn't announce the inquiry into the terrible events with regard to the incest taking place in Britain where the man has been sentenced to jail. Maybe yet again it was the liberal democrats playing politics, or is it only David Cameron who can be accused of using emotive issues to 'play politics'. Brown actually had his answer already so why leave it Clegg to raise the issue, which exposes this country as being the terrible place it has become.
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136. ThinkABitHarder
Hang on - as 'tax collector' for HMRC - why should small businesses take any reduction?
With an old rate of 13%, the new rate should be 10.5% a full 1% is being stolen from small business by the government...
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An emergency debate seems quite rare and serious.
I still don't know what it might be expected to achieve though........
"An urgent debate is called at short notice in the House of Commons on a subject of a "specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration". An MP may apply to the Speaker for an emergency debate under the rules of Standing Order No. 24.
Many more MPs request emergency debates than are granted. The Speaker usually grants no more than one or two a year and limits them to matters of national importance. They take place within 24 hours of being granted."
Emergency Debate
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cocteau8@137
"And your point is? That they shouldn't receive benefits?"
If you'd bothered to read my next sentence, or maybe you couldn't because of the blinkers, I said "If they're trying to buy their home, they can't claim, which is a little unfair."
For clarity, "they're" refers to the poor i.e. it is unfair if ALL the poor can't access CTB. And I think the Bogeyman wanted to be fair to all?
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Nick,
to those who ask where has the money gone then I repeat this. Exeter High schools, five of them, needed repair, demolished all of them, capital cost of schools GBP98 million, actual cost over twenty five years GBP315 million. The schools will be handed back in pristine condition.
The costs are being met out of revenue, not capital, this is why the figures don't balance. There are billions of pounds of PFI schools and hospitals around the whole country. We are just so busted.
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@ 24 - herb
"... If we were to cut VAT a little more, to cover the transport costs, we could cause Belgian, Dutch and French shoppers to cross the channel and shop here for those VATable items.
That would achieve the economic boost that the government is looking for."
sadly sir, we are unable to reduce the level of VAT below 15% this is the minimum the government can charge, as per European law.
Under the last conservative administration the minimum we could charge was 5% - somewhere under blair/brown this was raised without objection and agreed to.
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re: crowdedisland
"So, in order to attempt to balance the books, there are going to have to be hefty tax rises for all, combined with spending cuts. People have to understand - given where we are, standards of living and public services have only one way to go - down!"
Which is acceptable and understandable since we're in a recession. What this policy should hopefully do is shorten it.
Of course, some might think Darling's expectations are optimistic but I'd prefer positive thinking. Just so long as he is prepared for it not going precisely that way. We'll see.
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cocteau8@137
"I somehow suspect that that was not what Georgie had in mind when he was making this suggestion, seeing the tax saving through council tax cuts, but not the compenssatory increase in public spending through compensation offered to local authorities put in dire straits by such a freeze."
You have access to his mind? Ye gods, surveillance is even worse than I thought!
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I missed a post to reply to and it was the manufacturing industry.
We made a big blunder diminishing them in our country. They were our backbone for so long that it is a real big shame how they've ended up.
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'The chancellor has admitted to MPs that he made a mistake in raising duty on Scotch whisky, which would have led to a 29p rise in the price of a bottle'.
This is now on the BBC newsdesk.
You seriously can't make this up, it gets more bizarre every day. Darling makes an announcement, Gordon Cheshire Cat Brown grins. Chancellor admits mistake, like the VAT, was a mistake, and now anybody who mentions these mistakes is being opportunistic, I don't believe this, am I going insane, no don't answer that!
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cocteau@137
My apologies, I misread. You're just suspicious. I can live with that.
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I do not understand how the 2.5% cut in VAT will help small businesses?
- if a company import anything, then 17.5% vat has already been paid on stock.
have any of the government actually working in a shop/store?
- how does rendering shelf edge tickets for VAT rated items across hundreds of thousands of stores, help the "reduce waste" policies of the government?
- what happens to big businesses that have got their point of sale banners and header cards in place, now they all have to be changed?
- how many extra staffing hours will it cost to implement all the changes?
surely small businesses cannot afford extra staffing hours and extra materials involved? what about all the catalogues already printed?
but the biggest issue i have with the VAT cut, the government "want to help" yet unless i spend, i dont save a penny piece... last time i checked, it is physically impossible to spend extra money (that i dont have) on goods and save at the same time!
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You are all (well most of you) doing Nick Robinson a great disservice. I believe that until he got the BBC Political Editor job he was enraptured by the Thatcher and Major view of politics. He wavered a bit under Tony Bliar but because he was a mere artisan he found himself still out of the inner circle.
Brown was/is the answer to this frustration. Now clearly established as the one to get the favoured nod his status is guaranteed so long as he spins their lines.
Meanwhile, could somebody answer this conundrum:- is derekbarker Lord Mandy by another name?
Explains all.
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herb@141
Yes, a political budget. How can there be justification for keeping the price of whisky low, budget after budget, when there is an alcohol problem that the govt deplores and whisky appears to be quite addictive and produces aggressive drunks? Could it be a way of justifying the need for more alcohol advisers?
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The chancellor has admitted to MPs that he made a mistake in raising duty on Scotch whisky
He cant add up , he should resign from being chancellor immediately
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About the 18.5% rate on VAT - if the government does not consider a whole range of alternative percentages of VAT and their consequences, they are not doing their job properly. So the fact that they considered something is a non-story.
My concern is the Keynesian theory on which the whole rescue plan is based. Put money into the economy, this will encourage spending and create employment which will create more wealth. This seems to make sense if you have a manufacturing base with real wealth creation. But in a service based economy whose wealth is based on the perceived value of money and the charges by hairdressers, financial advisors, nail technicians and so on I am not sure that the basis of the theory is so strong.
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I read that the blessed Gordon, for he is saving the World, is fed up with having to give boy David, for he is still a novice, a lecture in economics across the Dispatch Box every week.
Well that must be the problem because the severe situation we face is not due to a failure of economics but rather financial mismanagement and a total absence of Budgetary Control.
Time for the novice to introduce budgetory control!
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#102 pot_kettle
Those figures look a bit dodgy (do you agree that UK debt is only 30.4% of GDP - if so, why do you say that the roof was not fixed while it is shining?).
And in any case, if they are right, we have an additional 15% of GDP to play around with in the crisis than our German friends (30.4% v 44.5% GDP national debt UK v Germany)
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The chancellor has admitted to a mistake in the PBR on whisky alcohol duty.
OK - fair enough. The issue has been rasied and he is doing something about it.
For me, however, the worrying line is this:
"Mr Darling told the Commons: "I said on Monday that what I wanted to do was to make sure the level of taxation on alcohol and on cigarettes remained the same.
"So that broadly the reduction in VAT would be cancelled out by a change in duty."
So the government have been purposefully finding ways to negate it's own fiscal stimulus?? Are they mad?!
Did they do the same with fuel??!
Alcohol Duty mistake in PBR
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Nick
Yesterday you said :
Not surprisingly the Treasury has a rather more innocent explanation. They insist that it's a document that reflected an option that had been considered by ministers but then rejected before yesterday's statement by the chancellor. This fits in with what both I and the BBC's Business Editor, Robert Peston were told in the few days before the PBR.
That last sentence manages to create a very supportive impression in terms of the Government's stated position but tells us nothing in reality. Intersting that you are silent on this today.
What were you told ? If you were told definitively, before the document came to light, that the Government had considered and ruled out a rise to 18.5%, why don't you say so, in terms?
If, instead, all you were told is that they had considered including an announcement of the intended increase as part of the PBR but had decided against that announcement, then you should say so, in terms.
By the way, did your source tell you what was replacing the 5 billion pounds in the package. A shortfall? 5 billion from an alternative source of taxation? 5 billion from additional reductions in planned spending levels?
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The Labour stooges on here are sounding more desperate and pathetic than ever.
O, the General Election will be so sweet!
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#117 Ian
Interesting - but the current account deficit problems emerged far before 1997.
You can hardly blame Labour for Conservative policies in the 1980s (which Labour opposed at the time) that destroyed our manufacturing base. The structural current account deficit we see now is the fruits of that clever approach.
We haven't operated a current account surplus on the Balance of Payments since 1983. The record current account deficit was in 1989 (now there's a boom) when it was a whopping 4.9% of GDP.
Surplus (deficit) on current account on balance of payments as a % GDP 1979-1997 - see ONS (section B, series AA6H from the link
1979 - (0.5%)
1980 - 0.8%
1981 - 1.9%
1982 - 0.8%
1983 - 0.4 %
1984 - (0.4%)
1985 - (0.2%)
1986 - (0.9%)
1987 - (1.7%)
1988 - (4.1%)
1989 - (4.9%)
1990 - (3.8%)
1991 - (1.8%)
1992 - (2.1%)
1993 - (1.9%)
1994 - (1.0%)
1995 - (1.2 %)
1996 - (0.8%)
1997 - (0.1%)
1998 - (0.4%)
1999 - (2.4%)
2000 - (2.6%)
2001 - (2.1%)
2002 - (1.7%)
2003 - (1.6%)
2004 - (2.1%)
2005 - (2.6%)
2006 - (3.4%)
2007 - (3.8%)
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Apparently it is possible to both cut services and boost services.
A real life case study
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If there is a boom when VAT is about to go back up to 17.5 (18.5 or 20)% then
What happens once it has done and all the purchases have been made? We get a (nother) bust.
Oh I forgot There was an end to boom and bust wasn't there?
Back to square 1.
But isn't ALL credit purchases like this - you buy ahead of when you really should (and pay for the privilege) - then you have to keep on buying (on credit) to keep the country ticking over. Eventuall the supply of credit runs out and we fall over.
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eurofever@160
That thought had crossed my mind too. If he isn't then the Dark Lord must have his hand up derek's fundament.
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Shame really that they did scrap the 18.5% rise after the temporary cut to 15%.
VAT has to be one of the fairest forms of tax there is - its more or less voluntary (if you dont want to pay it don't buy expensive stuff), rich people pay more of it because they buy more exprensive items with VAT on, its also hard for high earners to avoid unlike the new 45pc income tax band. The argument that lower earners spend a larger proportion of their income on things with VAT doesnt mean they pay more in VAT.
As has been mentioned a real VAT holiday of what would have been 3.5% would have been an actual fiscal stimulus (a reason to spend now) that this pbr has failed to produce. It also would not deter people with high incomes from spending, as the NI rise and income tax rise does by confiscating their money. That these higher earners are encouraged to SPEND their money is key to buying us out of recession.
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TAG @ 148 wrote:
'Nick,
we have the pictures of Gordon picking his nose, that was good. Today, however, there was a brilliant moment when the cameras flashed over to Gordon when Cameron was asking a question and Brown was caught just waving his hands in disdain as the question was asked.'
I also noticed that he was constantly bending the ear and sometimes pretending to bend the ear of The Minister next to him on the Front bench while criticisms were being fired at him during the pre Budget debate. To his great credit on a number of occasions this individual made no acknowledgement of being spoken to and stared straight ahead. Vintage body language but a little dangerous on his part methinks!
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MFI and Woolworths both go into administration on the same day because the economy is totally dead thanks to labour.
But don't worry, because according to Gordon Brown we're "best placed" and everything's fine.
Labour can only make it worse because they're clearly running a scorched earth policy.
I really don't care who runs the country anymore, as long as it isn't labour, and as long as it changes hands immediately.
I'd rather have the green party in charge at the moment, at least they wouldn't deliberately sabotage the country for their own twisted political ends.
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#160
Careful matey. I made some comment comparing messrs Barker and Hard_wedge and got referred. I think the offending words were "almost" and "lucid", but who knows. They both appear offended by the truth.
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I completed a YouGov survey last week which asked my opinion about this very matter.
Was I happy for VAT to drop to 15% for a short while and in 2010 to rise to 18.5%?...........no, I was not!
Clearly, for this question to be included in an opinion poll it was being given serious consideration......
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Ref my post @170
My apologies- I meant to type "Apparently it is possible to both cut taxes and boost services"
.........an Alistair Darling style typo there I am afraid
My apologies.............
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Another thought.........
Duty on petrol and tobacco is to be increased to compensate for the 2.5% reduction in VAT so that the price remains the same.
Fair enough.
But on January 1st 2010 when VAT goes back up to 17.5% will the duty on these items be restored to current levels?
I suspect not.........yet another hidden tax rise.
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Well What a compllete SHOCKER, What a REVELATION this is.
A Government faced with a Global Financial Crisis, needing to make a critical decision on the economy and what do they do, the incompetent Clowns, they look at a range of options, at first rulling nothing in or out, the idiots then consider the options and narrow it down and then, you'll never guess what the buffoons do, they only go and make a final decision after having looked and considered all the options.
Could they be more stupid? Considering options indeed, stupid thicky Labour, what a way to run a country.
I ask you!
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If they intended to or not is of no importance, what matters what they have done, reducing government income to encourage us to spend and browing huge amounts to fill BBH ... Browns Black Hole.
Interesting in the News Bulletin Council Tax hopes to be around 5% increase next year. Inflation according to pundits could be max 2% or deflation. Is the government going to cut the support grant to councils to make up some of the BBH and let us belive its the local council.
At least in Thailand the people have protested to get the government out. What would our army do in the same situation
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Could it be lore rich, an accusation about increasing VAT.
In 11 years not a single VAT increase, just one temporary reduction in an attempt to stimulate the economy.
Compare that to 1979-87 when it doubled. YeS DOUBLED. And introduced to domestic fuel.
Before anyone states the usuall "you cant look back to the last Tory government, ite irrelevent now"
Fair play, but Cameron was delving back to Denis Healey today so if you cant take it don't give it.
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I think middle england should be very very afraid. Future VAT increase or not, sitting on the back burner is the council tax revaluation of homes. When that gets unleashed middle income earners will find themselves being squeezed to the pips with even more money going into the state coffers. Thus pushing more people down the pile towards dependence on the state and the advanment of the social engineering project.
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170 JCook
Sounds about as plausible as cutting taxes and spending more on services.
THe Tories have promised that for years.
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#113
If the man bets on red all the time and keeps doubling his money then, if he had an infinite amount of money, he would be sure to win - and 00 does not affect matters. This in essence is the Martingale System.
The problem is: he does have finite money.
Suppose he goes in with £1024 and bets a pound, doubling each go.
Most of the time he wins a measly £1.00
When he runs out of money (10th losing go on the trot) - he loses £1024!
(Yes I know 00 makes the odds even worse - this is an example)
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From BBC News Report -
"Tony Blair has joined the ranks of wealthy Labour donors, Electoral Commission figures show.
The ex PM - who has earned up to £12m since leaving No 10 - gave £7,500 to the party in September this year."
= = = = = = = = =
Let's look at that again, 7,500 from 12,000,000 is by my, pre-dumbing-down, O'Level Maths exactly 0.0625% of his earnings.
Come on Tony, 10% would have only been 1.2 million for your old mate Gordon, or 1% would have 120,000 .... even 0.1% would have only stung you 12 Grand.
That must be less that Cherry spends on make-up every year??
I guess you must have been privy to the amount of tax you are going to have to pay good accountants to help you avoid in the next 10 years!
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It was fairly obvious when ministerial comments blamed HM Revenue and Customs for the leak of this information that something else had been happening.
HM Revenue and Customs implement tax: they don't devise it.
No; the higher rate of VAT was pulled at the last minute.
This shows that the government's plan is not focussed on getting the UK out of the current recession but to get re-elected in 2010.
Why is this? My view is that we are going to have a long depressing recession; a slump, even.
The government know it but fear to say as much. All they want to do is to protect their salaries.
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re: 176, obangobang
Those two wouldn't know the truth if it bit them on the bum.
You know Derek Barker used to be a troll who typed gibberish phrases on Brian Taylor's blog before his days as a NuLab apologist, have a look at his back catalogue if you want a good laugh.
And as for Mystic Meg, well, nuff said.
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Wow! three hours of rant from the light tory brigade and still "NO" plan or policy to date.
ObangObang tell me! did you get a head-ache, while thinking of that user name.
Camera On Cameron, take 321
Seriously do you people really support the weakest link in westminster?
The nottinghill economist is all blank with nothing in the tank.
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Given the serious times we live in I think its time for the BBC to stop acting as the mouth piece of the Government and start to question the spin they are putting out.
....stock market rises 9% = stock market likes the PBR...obviously nothing to do with Citibank bailout.
How about questioning PFI and what that adds to public debt?
How about questioning Gordon Brown's past statements on tax rises?
How about questioning Mandelson's assertion that Osborne wa talking down the £ when it had already dropped by 25%?
I despair of the BBC - it seems the Iraq war debacle and sexing up documents has made you frightened to speak.
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#170. jonathan_cook
A great link -- shows what you can do if you want to.
The problem with labour is that they don't want to.
Lefties see 'public sector' as a good thing in its own right - so the more the better. If they happen by chance to actually do something useful, that may be a bonus - but should probably be discouraged because if someone in the public sector does something useful, the paying public might come to expect it...
Lean is good - but don't expect a lefty to agree.
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Contrasting Styles
You couldn't have a greater contrast IMO in the respective "Chancellors" at the moment.
On the one hand Darling and Cable debating different viewpoints calmly and intelligently.
On the other hand Osbourne turns up with his ladybird book of politcal rhetoric and rants on and on and on and on. Just like the political Jingos on here, but frankly I think the HM official opposition could be better than that.
I don't mind admitting I think the stimulus package could have been better focussed on the lines Cable is suggesting BUT I also accept that the Treasury probably employs some pretty impressive economists (not quite up to the standards of those on here though such as Carrots and RobinJD - assuming they're two people).
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Well, guess what, it now appears, according to Darling (PBR debate), that 'Timms' 'did not' sign off the document that 'misled' the Tories into believing that Labour was intending to raise VAT to 18.5% in 2011, and that 'it was' someone within the treasury or HM revenue who signed Timms name 'without Timms knowing' very plausible, very convenient, does the public buy this.
NO well i certainly do not. thank god for the Internet.
So why hasn't the BBC/media picked up on this blatant LIE.
And why hasn't NickR made comment on this, could you imagine if this was a Tory leaked document, and the Tories come with this excuse,
look at the fuss re the 'recessions could be good' comment.
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re: 189 derekbarker
At least the tories did better than Brown. When asked why the figures in the book don't add up to the tune of many billions (by strange coincidence it's out by the same amount that would equate to a vat rise to 18.5%), the answer was:
"you're the do nothing party you are. na na na na na."
With people like Brown chanting childish irrelevant slogans and not answering questions, what on earth is the point in having a grown up debate?
The tories are trying hard to have a proper grown up debate, but they're getting thwarted by the childish insults and lack of logic from your mad party.
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The honourable member for West Glasgow referring to the members opposite as having been born with silver spoons in their mouths today. The real face of The newly reemerging Old Labour Party.
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195:
And incidentally if any of those on The Conservative benches referred to their counterparts as working class dinosaurs all hell would be let loose!
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derek@189
"Wow! three hours of rant from the light tory brigade and still "NO" plan or policy to date."
If you stopped spraying vitriol and read the blogs, you'd see some very useful pointers that your masters could use. Maybe they will and you're the smokescreen?
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re: 185 weejonnie
yes, I know that system very well; it's a fairly simple system that most people work out for themselves if they know maths; I used to use it myself as a basis for playing 21/pontoon, but I got thrown out of the virtual casino when they spotted the pattern. (they think it's cheating, I think it's just using your head).
It definitely works, but, like you say, it only works if you're prepared to go to a high stake, and only if the coloured squares aren't all taken away and replaced with green zeroes.
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180. Eatonrifle
Youre not wrong its a daft issue, and Cameron should have had something more serious to discuss. But thats politics and hes playing to an approving crowd.
However, if Brown had just half a brain and just answered the question he would have said...
...No we had no plan to increase VAT to 20 percent. We did consider the option, along with a whole host of other considerations, but decided against it.
You see a plan is something that you intend doing, or are in the process of doing or have done. It is not an idea you happend to discuss at a meeting.
But he didnt say that and tomorrows papers will all say PM refuses to rule out VAT increase to 20 percent.
Brown is a muppet and brings trouble on himself. Hes no leader.
And dont read too much into that and think that Im saying Cameron is fantastic, cos it aint so.
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192. Eatonrifle
Nahhh
Robin JD is a bit right of me.
But we agree on cutting spending.
And in a very short time your leader will be forced into it.
And then you can say sorry to us both.
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179 MrMistofolees
"But on January 1st 2010 when VAT goes back up to 17.5% will the duty on these items be restored to current levels?
I suspect not.........yet another hidden tax rise."
The other hidden rise is right in front of our faces but the BBC isn't reporting on it; businesses can claim back vat, but they can't claim back excise duty, so it's already a tax rise for businesses.
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192 Eatonrifle
"The Treasury probably employs some pretty impressive economists."
Is that the same impressive economists who didn't realise that doubling the tax rate of the lowest paid wouldn't adversely effect people on low pay?
Or the ones who accidentally lost a few billion somewhere in the figures when brown changed his mind about the 18.5% vat rate ?
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er wrote:
'On the one hand Darling and Cable debating different viewpoints calmly and intelligently.'
Well at least one of these is debating intelligently. The other is sticking to his guns and admitting no responsibility for making serious errors of judgement in the lead up to this crisis!
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Carrots @ 199 wrote:
180. Eatonrifle
'Youre not wrong it's a daft issue, and Cameron should have had something more serious to discuss. But that's politics and hes playing to an approving crowd.'
I'd go along with that. I don't know why this issue is being given such credence. More important are a serious of measures which in all probability will do little to get us out of this mess we're in.
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As an ex-Tory voter, this is the reason why I will never vote Tory again as long as this PR of a leader is still at the helm.
On Monday he says that a 2.5% of reduction in VAT is nothing when prices are falling. So what if prices are falling? GOOD, EXCELLENT!
Today Wednesday he claims that the Chancellor was actually going to raise VAT to 18.5%.
Now if 2.5% is pittance then why should there be a fuss on a 1 %, or 1.5 or even 2%?
Labour should raise VAT, even up to 20% to pay for extra borrowing. That means that Labour would have raised it from 17.5 to 20%, an increase of 2.5, while the Tories increased it from 8% to 17.5%, an increase of 9.5, when some people were dying of hunger with our pensioners found frozen to death.
Remember Dave? or were you still a baby in 1992, when thanks to your advice to remain in the ERM, we lost our jobs in the city, including our homes?
A 2.5% reduction in VAT is surely going to reduce inflation much faster!
DavBorne are showing us, that they can smell defeat!
Good night Nick.
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199/200 Carrots
I owe you an apology.
Please accept it, I agree to compare you to the Caped Crusader was truly an insult.
He is as you say a bit "right"
Some say he was once editor of Der Sturmer, we just know him as the Caped Crusader!
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#196 sicilian
And incidentally if any of those on The Conservative benches referred to their counterparts as working class dinosaurs all hell would be let loose!
I take it that was sarcasm.
Wasn't Prescott continually mocked because of his working-class roots by those on the Opposition benches (and much of the media sadly).
From today, I give you Mr David Cameron in PMQs (3rd time he spoke)
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Give it back!
Mr. Cameron: “Give it back!” the hon. Gentleman says—he can get the document on the internet. [Laughter.] There go the dinosaurs
So, if any of those on The Conservative benches referred to their counterparts as working class dinosaurs all hell would be let loose!
Right.
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Only@205
"As an ex-Tory voter"
For some reason, I can't believe you've ever voted Tory. Too much emotive language and hysteria. I think the Dark Lord's hand has moved again.
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Onlywayup, forgive me for questioning the veracity of the statement,
"As an ex-Tory voter, this is the reason why I will never vote Tory again as long as this PR of a leader is still at the helm",
however I feel that anyone with a grain of intelligence has given up believing the present incumbents at any level.
Someone needs to be reminded that the LABOUR PARTY are the ones in charge , and the Tory Party are in opposition, they therefore have to provide neither you nor I nor the BBC with any policies whatsoever.
I am tired of the ridiculous spin and obvious leaks by the Government and the sycophantic attitude of the BBC and other sections of the media.
As for anyone protesting "I'll never vote for them again", when talking about the opposition parties, it is difficult to give them any credence whatsoever.
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#209
Couldn't agree more with you Dorothy, the tories dont even match up to an opposition party, well said, they are in all the "sense" of common values a third rate amateur bunch
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Dear 208 and 209. How do you explain the fact that the Tories, sorry Conservatives, lost three consecutive elections, even though you both voted Tory?
That's right, because people like myself stopped voting for them!
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#198 Yes - of course the main difference between 21/pontoon and roulette is that a roulette table has no memory of previous results whereas a pack of cards has.
(If there have been 3 Kings one round then those 3 Kings can't appear again until a new deck is drawn).
In 21/pontoon there are bound to be situations in the deck that favour the banker and some that favour the punter e.g. if a lot of low cards have gone it favours the punter and vice versa. Also, of course, the punter knows the odds and can change their strategy based on the card 'in the hole' whereas the banker HAS to obey set rules e.g. if you hold at 15 and the banker has 16 the banker has to go on even though in theory it has already won. And, of course is the option to double up in favourable positions.
Since you have a finite 'group' of permutations to work (overall in your favour) with then doubling up should work.
All very interesting but of absolutely no relevance to VAT.
#169 - I think you actually have to look at D28L which shows ACTUAL amounts takinginto account GOODS AND SERVICES.
Yes in 88/89/90 (The Lawson boom?) the figures were quite bad as a %ge of GDP however from 1991 - 1997 the figures are pretty flat (and indeed +ve for 1996-1997 - the last two years of Tory economic management)
Since then (other than the mild recession in 2003) they have steadily got worse in %ge terms and, as GDP has increased in theory, MUCH worse in Absolute terms. We ave thus had the classical situation of increased money supply sucking in imports.
The actual amount since 1997: £518 billion and leaving this country at nearly £4 billion a month at the moment (reducing as credit is seizing up)
You may also like to see the index of production and see how that has increased since 1999. (from 100.00 to 102.00 in 9 years is hardly massive growth)
Read the following and note the last paragraph (taken from ONS)
"Between August and September, manufacturing output decreased by 0.8 per cent. Output decreased in ten of the 13 sub-sectors and increased in three sub-sectors during the latest month. Within the widespread decreases, the most significant decreases in output were 1.8 per cent in the transport equipment industries, 1.7 per cent in the chemicals and man-made fibres industries and 1.3 per cent in the paper, printing and publishing industries. There were no significant increases in the latest month.
Total production output decreased by 0.2 per cent between August and September. Mining and quarrying output increased by 7.0 per cent. Oil and gas production increased by 9.3 per cent with the end of the planned maintenance season."
What would the figures have been like without mining, quarrying, gas and oil?
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It doesn't really matter whether the government considered raising VAT after their rediculous budget has been approved.
Just go back and check the "sensible projections" they made a few years ago about the real state of the UK economy.
The economists who work for the Treasury are simply witch-doctors. They have no more idea about what could happen than Joe and Jane walking down the High Street.
Unfortunately, Joe and Jane get hit by a cancellation of the 10p tax band. Actually a doubling of their tax bands.
Economists dabble in a black art.
A bit like Global Warming scientists.
Everything works, as long as the facts don't mess up the computer models.
Even Brown and Darling should be able to admit that stuff has been a complete mess for several years.
But they can't do that.
It would be to say that the UK's finances have been wrongly forecast for years.
Yet, now, Darling thinks there's going to be a massive jump in GDPgrowth rate in a couple of years.
OK. Maybe.
Release your computer models so other people can check exactly what parameters you have included, so that other folk can explore whether your unbelievable projections could actually take place.
I know it's rediculous, but I always hoped that an elected government, when in place, tried to achieve progress on behalf of the nation - not a dependent sector of the electorate.
Fiddling around with VAT is a nonsense. That's what the French Minister of Finance said.
New Labour seems to be dead. Quite a lot of things I had anticipated. Like "reform" of public services. Turned out to be spending a lot more with no control.
Darling clams there have been billions of "efficiency savings". (That's the stuff the Tories were savaged as being "cuts in service"...)
Is there any evidence of savings? (Freedom of Information evidence?)
If there were savings, why did taxes have to keep rising?
Go check on real companies, in a real world economy. Losing a few percentage points of cost isn't that hard.
But, with this lot, "growth" has to be constant, even if it means bankrupting a nation.
After all, what does it matter if we are all broken, as long as "New Labour" can continue to rule?
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The LieBore party, because they bore us with their lies.
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No multi-coloured rainbow nor yellow brick road for the tories to follow.
Just the plain: same old: same old (cut tax nonsense)
I like confidence, I wish we all could emit confidence.
Every book has an ending and the final chapter of the tories book of theoretical
mish/mash is coming to an end.
Hello, fairlyopenmind, the kids are doing fantastic, working very hard and gaining great ground and knowledge every day.
I'm truly humbled at their work rate, aint it great being a parent.
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Perhaps derekbarker and Chuck E Hogwash are one and the same being? The Tweedledum and Tweedledee of Nick's blog. At times prolix and pompous, at other times random word generation. At all times nonsense.
(Can anyone recall seeing both identities on any one thread?)
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old labour has never been dead,this labour goverment have ridden their luck by public and personal dept as means of growth. Along with a lorry load of spin(lies)and dodgy figures, unemployment, a million shifted on to disabilty benefit, inflation figures not included in housing etc, well you can only have contempt for the voter for so long, their day of reckoning is not far away, some legacy, some mess.
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re: 216, Max
They don't really exist, they're just empty puppet usernames with Labour HQ's greasy fist inside them. Watch them both disappear for a while now they've been rumbled.
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215:
All taxes including stealth taxes have increased enormously under this Government. You obviously support this trend as you say that tax cutting is nonsense. Plainly you are not affected by this drain on your earnings. I'd like some of what you've got!
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210;
You take out of 209's thread what suits you. Basically she is saying a plague on both the main parties's houses and yet you somehow spin the argument your way. Typical of Labour truth distortion and completely in character. Congratulations but you don't fool me and you won't fool the majority of bloggers on here!
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205:
All this ex Tory voter nonsense is a fib. Just don't believe it. Try another one! If true you are in a massive minority. 1997 maybe.
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215 derekbarker wrote:
"Hello, fairlyopenmind, the kids are doing fantastic, working very hard and gaining great ground and knowledge every day.
I'm truly humbled at their work rate, aint it great being a parent."
Funny isn't it that we seem to walk on different political paths.
But your kids and mine are really important.
My daughter has decided to study law in France. (So there's no educational support from the UK, even though it seems to be quite reasonable for people to gain a broader understanding of how we work across the borders..)
It does seem a bit odd that someobody can get a grant in the UK to study a garbage degree, while my gal can't get any support to develop understanding of a difficult subject in a foreign language.
Hey ho.
Best to let Gordon do what he does.
We'll all have to get the shovels out soon, to dig our way out of this hole.
It does seem a bit odd that you and I have a lot of concern about our children but we seem to politically so far apart.
I'd like Gordon tro have found real way around the 10p tax band. It wasn't difficult. And would have helped millions.
I have market-leanings.
Just as those folk in China, India and most parts of Africa.
Make/produce something and sell it.
Pretty simple.
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222
fairlyopenmind, I wish your Daughter success and of course real help with the cost of such an important undertaking.
Strange is it not fairlyopenmind, that parable
story of the shepherd springs to mind.
Sometimes times we choose different ways
but the morale is, the good shepherd never turned his back on the stray, he always held out his hand and welcomed the stray back.
You make many consistent points and maybe we can narrow the path on many split ends, who knows, you might intend to follow the right path and vote labour again.
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11. Poprishchin
"I read that the National Security Agency in the US didn't trust Tony Blair (Surprise!) and bugged his phone calls. Apparently his code name was 'Anchory'. They had to remove the 'W' as otherwise everyone knew who they meant"
I wonder what they knew...could that be why it was necessary for Bliar to invent the dodgy dossier & take us into Iraq?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The great labour redistribution of wealth has meant taking from the productive and giving to the non productive and as ever with this formula the money runs out in the end. Yet another fine mess labour have got us into, as ever, instead of looking at themselves blame everybody else, America, Thatcher etc,
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69. ghanimah
"If anyone is in any doubt over the shameless cynicism of this Labour government how about this from the New York Times (and it's on the free tibet site as well) that Brown has changed Britain's position on Tibet in exchange for China giving more money to the IMF."
OMG! Thanks ghanimah,
Miliband dumps Tibet a month ago! Why hasn't that been on the news. All that posturing before the Olympics & now a brave nation sold down the river.
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Just who is going to pay of Crash Gordons debt binge.
This spells it out.
Yep Browns legacy to the UK for decades to come.
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Noticed this blog on Guido, it is worth a show on here.
In 1904 JM Barrie invents a character called Mr Darling who doesn't believe in Never-never land.
In 2008 NuLabour invent a character called Mr Darling who puts the whole land on the never-never.
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So dollies trolls are most active after sunset.
Nick,
Any update on Mandleson/Oleg discussing eu Tariffs? - start with wood tariffs and work from there. I look forward to your jouranlistic article.
Oh, and your time line (a'la Osborne in Corfu) regarding your own meetings/briefings with the government regarding pre-released news of the PBR would be appreciated too.
Thanks Nick
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So in 'Dave' Cameron's world, a VAT increase is discussed but then rejected by the government - it will happen.
An option of an even higher rate is reveiwed and the Prime Minister says all options were considered - this means to poor old Dave "TAX BOMBSHELL"!
Mind you, I think if you asked "Dave" what time it was, the words "TAX BOMBSHELL" would be part of the answer. He has not opened his mouth when there has been a microphone within spitting distance without saying "TAX BOMBSHELL" for 4 days now.
Personally I think in time of global financial crisis it is re-assuring that the government considers all options, regardless of how politically unpalatable they may be.
"Dave" is still just the same old shallow PR man he has always been. Shouting an old advertising slogan repeatedly is no substitute for a coherent policy.
Bill
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99. , derekbarker
"Bettlejuice or juggler, whatever! didn't you know that employment is at record levels compared to the last tory government."
Yep! Labour has expanded non-productive employment by 1.3 million public servants(not all are nurses,doctors & policemen)
and allowed around 2million immigrants in over the last 11 years.
Just a shame the "British jobs for British workers" promise by Brown was one more soundbite
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#165
I agree the figure is dodgy - even without including PFI and future liabilities.
It seems to indicate that GDP is £2 trillion - this is not the case - unless some massive earnings have happened in the last 24 hours.
From another site - which puts GDP at about £1.3 trillion (the figure is misleading as it has been quoted in dollars and the pound's fall results in a higher figure). This would mean that the 30.4% is 35% higher i.e. 41% - which seems reasonable given other figures.
"The United Kingdom is an interesting economy in particular because its aggregate consumer debt alone ($2660 US Billion) is roughly equal to the nation’s total GDP. In this sense, the UK is just like your friend that spends exactly what they make, or even beyond their means to try and impress his/her friends. This is worse than living month to month – it’s like living a month to two months behind! And now, the UK is accumulating new debt at a faster rate than the economy. If the UK were a private citizen, it might be time for him/her to sell off what they can and move to Panama, or declare some type of bankruptcy."
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231 BillmcFadden
Evening - how are you?
I too have noticed that Cameron has been banging on about the "tax bombshell" quite a lot recently.
I also noticed that Gordon Brown has been very repetitive and some of his stock phrases have found their way into your post @ 231.
"Global financial crisis" - the old 'nothing to do with me' line that Gordon likes so much.
"PR Man" - Gordon likes to portray himself as 'serious' and Cameron as 'just a PR man' (presumably he dislikes Tony Blair for the same reason)
Maybe Cameron has woken up to "dog whistle" politics and has realised that some people are very susceptible to certain messages - especially if they are repeated often enough.
The "dog whistle" line for this VAT issue, of course, is that it is needed as a "Fiscal Stimulus". Under no circumstances should it be thought of as an election bribe.
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Bill @ 231..
Hiya Bill...
"Mind you, I think if you asked "Dave" what time it was, the words "TAX BOMBSHELL" would be part of the answer. He has not opened his mouth when there has been a microphone within spitting distance without saying "TAX BOMBSHELL" for 4 days now."
Thanks for your illuminating post....
Could you please then explain why your "God" has only referred to Cameron and his lot as being "THE PARTY OF NO ACTION" for the past week,or more?
No trolling..just facts please.
And don't forget the proposals put forward by the Opposition which have now been adopted by Brown!
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I note the usual Tory trolling has continued even after the facts of the matter were published in The Independent.
Anatole Kaletsky comments in The Times that the government could've explained their budget better. I agree. He also comments that Tory posturing is doing huge damage to public understanding and the chances of economic recovery. Again, I agree.
I can't see the Tories backing down from their agressive and corrosive approach. It won them elections in the past and has bought them high polls and column inches. They're caught up too much in "winning" to see what a bunch of losers they are.
If Labour continue to ignore "winning" and focus on confidence and caring, the Tories fear and greed will just eat them up: their "grey hairs" are already worried and their activists are beginning to panic. Ignore them: the toughest enemy is yourself.
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Sure, the Tories are very certain and gently positive when talking up their own stuff, and vacuous and pepper comment with personal attacks when talking about Labour.
I note, the wannabes in here are a policy free zone and positively itch to throw personal attacks at perceived enemies in the hope it upsets them or starts a flamewar.
Osborne and Cameron have been exposed by talking down the economy and the Baby P affair. Nobody forced them. It was their choice. But, they're suffering from a major dose of backwards rationalisation so can't help themselves.
Jonah Lehrer is publishing a new book in February, 'How We Decide', which examines the cognitative and intuitive aspects of reasoning. If the Tories want a timebomb this book will be dynamite and blow a hole in Osborne and Cameron's boat.
It's BIG. It's really BIG.
Yeah, Dave. It's big.
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Your analysis is persuasive but technically wrong on two levels. Gordon Brown is asserting a positive position: he is trying to develop an illuminating narrative. David Cameron is disruptive and negative: he's trying to make himself look good by making someone else look bad.
While both are issues of mere presentation and character, there's a moral dimension the Prime Minister has that David Cameron lacks. I would agree the Prime Minister and Labour in general need to sprinkle more Hollywood pixie dust on their act, but Cameron has no soul.
This is typical of Jonathan Cook's comment. When subject to technical analysis his position is ill-informed and partial. It's just unreality with some emotional manipulation tacked on. It's slick and he does it well, but it's not credible and certainly not very nice.
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#236 Charles_E_Hardwidge
Charlie once again you post an article and forget to read it all.
It has become standard practice for me to read the small print when it comes to NuLabour.
The first blog of that article sums Kalesky up in a few lines:
I find it difficult to believe he could no more predict the weather than the economy, even yesterdays.
The guy has as much credibility as you - Zilch!
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#236 Charles_E_Hardwidge
By the way I did mean Zilch, Not Zen!
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#231 Billmcfadden
My, My Bill you have such a fixture on slogans - TAX BOMBSHELL
But I must admit I have got one as well:
With the predicted 3 Mill unemployed the Tories just need to dig out the Poster they used in 1979.
I suppose my user name is a dead give away!
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Zen is zilch.
I'm up early and being a 24/7 hyperactive all conquering action hero sort of guy I've been looking for an excuse to post a Labour versus Tory TV show comparison.
Labour Shows:
TV Show Number 1.
TV Show Number 2.
TV Show Number 3.
Conservative Shows:
TV Show Number 4.
TV Show Number 5.
TV Show Number 6.
Aw, man. That's a bunch of cringe.
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Dear Nick
Stick to politics and change the subject, Stick to POLITICS Roberts got it on Money, "why"?
Because,----- Britains need YOUR Help, Britain needs your reporting.
--- Pirates have Two British men as Hostage in Somarlia, and The Foreign Office does nothing except state that ----"we do not do ransoms."?
The trouble is the British Government does nothing any way, they do not Care about the individual or their relatives.
America would deal with it, so would Israel, and many other countries by rescue missions, But Oh No! Not the British Governemnt, they sit back on their back sides and hope the situation resolves itself, Thats the problem and trouble with British Officials now a days they have no Back Bone, Hence the saying,----- "we do not comment on individual cases.",
Another very awkward scenario, is the fact that we have too many Scottish MPs, in places of Authority, and not enough English MPs making the RIGHT decisions for England, Because the Scots are making the Decisions, Immigration is out of Control in England, " LETS HAVE AN ENGLISH MAN INSTEAD MAKING THE DECISIONS,"--- the sooner the Better Because the two Scots weve had to date have wrecked GREAT BRITAIN, and i reckon this has been done on purpose,
Before you dismiss this as irresponsible , look closely at what is being said. Thank You.
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The level of debate on these HYS blogs is often pitifully low, why don't people try to make constructive suggestions and arguments rather than just partisan personal attacks and insults directed at other commenters, the journalists writing the piece or the politicians involved. That type of nonsense does nothing but suggest to me that people usually get the government they deserve.
I really do despair at the dumbing down of the British electorate at times!!
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My my. The Government acolytes have been busy tapping away at their keyboards until well after midnight . Must have something to do with 'the last word' and all that. It's no good posting silly links if you happen to be one of these because I don't bother to read baised reports. I can form my own opinion without the help of so called experts (many of whom failed in their duty to see our present economic malaise coming).
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Well another day and a little bit poorer, again.
2010 can't get here fast enough for me and, I suspect, a lot of other people who are tired of the whole approach this government has taken to public spending and financing the debt.
There have been some horrendous mistakes, in overestimating the continuing tax take and not anticipating for a moment the possibility of a recession, and then underestimating how bad it could get, and how quickly.
Aren't you really surprised that an economy that is soundly based, and btter placed than many others, can be brought to its knees in a matter of months?
Of course the grand architect of all this can't possibly admit to all of this, and is willing to do anything to hang on to his ill gotten job.
What am I looking forward to in the period up to the election? An impoverished old age, and yet another series of blatant lies and half truths from this bunch of discredited politicians.
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Spectacularjonesy55, you must not despair ,it has more to do with frustration at the contempt in which the population is held by the politicians of the Labour Party
( who are in power , therefore responsible)
It has to do with anger towards a complicit media , the only people who can voice public concern and hold politicians to account, but who have become sycophantic like a beaten dog.
And it has to do with a deep and burning rage that this Westminster Government has destroyed everything that was even vaguely worthwhile in this country and then turns round and blames everyone and anyone rather than accept responsibility.
It is about taking to the streets in millions and saying NOT in my name over Iraq , and being LIED to by T Blair and the rest.
Then to deny that actions taken by
" terrorists" were nothing to do with UK involvement.
I am so angry!
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227. notsosilentmajority wrote:
Miliband dumps Tibet a month ago! Why hasn't that been on the news. All that posturing before the Olympics & now a brave nation sold down the river.
Milliband is a first generation immigrant. What does he care for Britains historical relationships?
It is more that just Tibet that Brown will sell down the river to try to save his skin - having stolen our pensions, he now sells our kids and grand kids into serfdom to pay off his mad budget binge.
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#247
Could not agree more. I think that there are more angry people out here than people care to admit. I am as bad as everybody else.
I am aseriously fearful for the future, we are saddling our young people with so much debt. I think that a major economy will soon default on its debt, I mean all the countries which hold it are, well made up of nasty foreigners aren't they. Saudi Arabia and China, I mean what harm would it do to America if they say we default, what are you going to do about it. Attack us!
America is also fighting an economic war, I think that they are going to do something really stupid!
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Why is Nick Robinson so enthusiastically trumpeting the Tory smokescreen on a rise in VAT, which is a blatant ploy to deflect from Labour's CUT in VAT?
Is it anything to do with his past as Chairman of the Young Conservatives?
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244. spectacularjonesy55
You are quite wrong.
It is the government who get the electorate they deserve.
and State monopolies get the customers they deserve.
The governemnt cant be trusted and are bad for the country - the people react to this.
The public are forced to finanace the BBC and it nolonger even pretends to be even handed - people react to that too.
Making constructive suggestions implies that you want them fixed -- many people don't want them fixed, they want them swept away.
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It's getting to the time of year when we have to look back and count our blessings. In keeping with the spirit of the thing I've looked back to 1997 and found all the things that we have to rejoice and thank the Labour government for:
Gordon's annual raid on on pension funds by remoival of the tax credit;
the Formula 1 donation scandal, leading to Bliar's declaration that "he's a pretty straight kinda guy";
the introduction of spin into governemtn announcments, never restict good news to just one announcement, keep repeating it, even if this leads to people thinking you've done more than you actually have;
various indiscretions of government ministers, such as Robinson, Mandelson, Vaz, Hain, Prescott etc.;
the infamous 50p increase in pensions;
the shift in council tax subisdy, which has left most of the southern part of England with bigger council tax bills than are justified;
the introduction of a whole raft of stealth taxes, and hidden increases in other taxes which have been Brown's trade mark, and are still in evidence with the fuel and whisky cock-up's now taking place;
the rise in N I contributions, which was the equivalent of an income tax rise - the problem with this is the spinning that accompanied it, not the increased cost;
the Iraq war;
the death of David Kelly;
the cash for honours scandal;
the lack of a referendum on the European constitution;
the various occurences of missing data;
the ID cards nonsense;
the introduction of HIPs, and the subsequent decline in house prices;
the scandal of the misspent billions on the NHS computer system;
the 10p tax fiasco;
the fumble on cannabis laws;
the mess up on drinking laws;
the fiasco with super casinos;
the supposed end of boom and bust;
the plunging of the economy into bankruptcy, which has been both swift and bloody.
I think that's enolugh to be going on with. Anybody who can think of others, feel free to add them.
I couldn't look forward to defending any of them personally, but then I'm not a political satrap.
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p.s. Why do you think the government wants to regulate blogs? Its because they know this is the truth, but don't want it broadcast.
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Isn't it slightly amusing that Gordon Brown's glib gibe to the Tories that they are a "do nothing party" when it is what he has done in the last 10 years that has made Britain so poorly prepared for this economic crisis.
If only he had "done nothing" rather than macro manage the every part of the Economy we might have been better placed.
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#247 DisgustedDorothy
I agree with your sentiments. I to signed up to Not in my name and took to the Streets of London.
I was also among those protesters outside the recent NuLabour conference in Manchester asking the government to bring our troops home.
Unfortunately we have a government that does not listen, they never have.
Yep it wasnae me it was the wee chappie doon the road, or it wasnae me it was them naughty yanks frae across the pond.
My one hope is that Blair, Brown, Ali and Mandy are all on the front seat when NuLabour crashes.
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Seems a bit slow today. Wonder if that's because the labour stooges recognise the game is up, and they're in the stages of the closing down sale?
By the way Nick, thinking ahead and all that, wouldn't a more apposite header for this thread actually be 1% rise in VAT considered for the future?
If it has been considered, and given the track record of the ruling lunatics, it surely has only been postponed, not ruled out?
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242. Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
You missed a out:
NuLabour Show No 1
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Nick,
so we have lost Woolwoths and MFI, despite the attempts apparently by a certain nameless somebody to 'save' the companies.
What has been saved is parliament having to debate the demise of such well known companies. Strange how they have gone just as parliament goes on one of its little breaks again. Don't they know that there is a crisis.
I think that there must be more discussion about the appalling events in the commons yesterday during the debate into the emergency/crisis budget. It would appear that labour just do not want to listen to anybody on the opposition benches without baying about the eighties.
I think that amongst the socialists there is a great deal of self loathing because just as the conservatives can be said to be the do nothing party, which I disagree with, then surely the guilt amongst socialists should be that they did nothing for the working class and public sector workers during the Thatcher period, and the Tory victories at the polls. Where were the socialists during this period, what were they actually doing for the working classes then. They were the do nothings that they now accuse the conservatives of being.
Also, amongst the same group of people they know that what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan is so terrible that of course they should be on the streets demanding our immediate withdrawal. Yet what do they do, just wring their hands waiting for their inevitable defeat when they can then go onto the streets as the undemocratic mob. It will be who governs Britain again, the rule of the ballot box, or the rule of the mob.
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Can I suggest you take some time out and read some of Nicks previous blogs.
Then come back, it is obvious you are a new blogger.
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210. derekbarker wrote:
Couldn't agree more with you Dorothy, the tories dont even match up to an opposition party
Dont worry Derek your team can show us all how its done very shortly.
Hey Derek
How many Labour MPS will it take to change a light bulb after the next election...
Both of them...
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238 Charles-E-Hardwidge
Me thinks you doth protest too much.
In what way is Gordon Brown asserting a positive position when he says:
"No I meant an end to Tory boom and bust"
or
"No I meant no return to 15% interest rates"
or
"The Conservatives are the do nothing party" (The Conservatives have outlined steps for recovery and the government have nicked some of them)
or
"This is no time for a novice" (when America are very positive in the opposite direction and think it is exactly time for a novice to replace the old rear guard of leaders who got us into this mess in the first place)
This VAT issue is supposed to be another positive assertion with the phrase "A fiscal stimulus".
Well I'm afraid a large proportion of the country seem to think the short term VAT reduction will have zero effect as a fiscal stimulus and is just an election gimmick. The suspicion that Labour have also hidden future planned VAT rises makes it seem even more cynical.
"Fiscal Stimulus" is a positive assertion - but it don't seem too genuine.
I admit that Gordon does like a positive spin - certainly when he comes out with these repetitive lines:
"This is a global problem started in America"
or
"We are uniquely placed to weather the recession"
Both positive - but disingenuous because they seek to cover up Brown's past mistakes as Chancellor - the mistakes that have contributed to the problems we face now.
So if you want to consider people that "emotionally manipulate" maybe you should apply your own rigorous standards and analytical powers to Gordon Brown.
Unless of course you truly believe that Labour are "whiter than white". Now there was a promise and a half!
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#246 herb_igone_ex_tuga
Coudnt agree more. Roll on 2010.
In 1997 people were saying NuLabour NuHope.
Now people are saying NuLabour NoHope!
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#253 the-real-truth
To quote the X files, the truth is out there.
All governments, of all political persuasions, would rather we didn't know the truth, whatever it is, but society has evolved such that all the necessary information is available in too many diverse formats for the "authorities" to dotor effectively.
Still, they keep trying.
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Here is an interesting take which makes the VAT issue seem like small beer. See Dizzy's link below.
In essence, new accounting rules in 2009 may force the government to put the PFI debt on the UK books.
Three of the key financial backers for companies undertaking PFI contracts are banks that the UK government is propping up.
The entwined liabilities and sharp rise in the UK's visible debt may tip us over the edge into bankruptcy.
Maybe we don't need to worry about a Tax Bombshell timed to go off during the recovery. Maybe we should be more fearful of a "PFI Bombshell" that hits in 2009?
here
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Why is it that all the "Xspurts", politicians and journalist have ignored the following:
I have just checked with HMRC on 2.5% on domestic heating.
"Zero rated supplies, such as basic foodstuffs, children’s clothing and books; exempt supplies, such as education and health; and supplies subject to VAT at 5 per cent, such as domestic fuel and power are not affected by this change".
So the two main very basic costs of staying alive are food (No Vat) and heating (5%) are in no way affected by the cut. In my case heating is the one non-discretionary payment I have - no help
As a major cost in living costs heating a reduction of vat would have meant something - but to help the householder - not socialist!!!
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247
Completely agree.
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I am happy with the efforts of Darling & Brown. The main reason is that I am Scottish and I like seeing my brethren in top jobs.
Pretty good argument eh?
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261. Jonathan. Well said / written.
CEH is playing computer games with this subject and has taken the challenge of putting himself on the side of the baddie! It would be too easy to side with the majority.
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Nick
Do you not think that during this chaos in the economy we should be re-skilling, up-skilling UK workers to take full advantage of the upturn when it does arrive. I saw nothing in the PBR to facilitate this.
Nick, do you not think this a wasted opportunity that we have missed?
We will lose out in the long term.
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Researchers find that education standards have been dumbed down
Could explain why the VAT documents were posted in error ;-)
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Now I'm not one for being too picky with government half truths, but some thought needs to be given to Darkling's thought process with this VAT cut.
The figure has been bandied about that this will provide a stimulus of around 12 bn to the economy in a year. So far, so good.
It doesn't apply to food and children's clothes, as we all know.
It won't be allowed to apply to fuel and alcohol, so nobody gains, and business in fact loses.
People are still losing jobs, and have no income to spend.
How many people are going to buy a new car, TV, hi-fi, computer or furniture in the next year?
If there is no spend in these areas, and it's looking increasingly doubtful, then there is no saving being experienced by us, and no boost to the economy.
However, the increases will be applied based on this "notional" saving we have had, and for which we will most willingly pay again.
Yet more sleight of hand I'm afraid.
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Nick does an excellent job at being impartial. Of course he has his own colours to support at the ballot box but in his job and his former post at ITN he is very fair and unjudgemental.
Difficult job because I bet he would like to put his two-penneth in but well done Nick!
Perhaps those complaining would prefer Andrew Marr back - son in law of a Labour Peer? Hmmmm.
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Carrots @ 260:
Would that that were true. Unfortunately The Government have a solid core of supporters mostly in The North who would vote for them whatever mistakes they made. Why that should be so is somewhat contentious so I'll leave it for others to ponder.
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Nick,
to those who say that were on the streets in the'not in my name' protests, one soldier has stood up and spoken at public meetings saying why he disagreed with the war in Iraq. What has happened, this lousy good for nothing governmnet through the MoD has taken out an injunction preventing this one brave courageous man from speaking out. Just what are they afraid of. The truth is out there.
Why are people so silent baout these wars. In Nazi Germany people stayed silent whilst terrible things were done. Well the same is happening throughout the world, in our name.
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267. Even if they are wallies?
I am English, live in England, my family is traceable back to the fifteenth century in Kent and my husband's back to Hereward the Wake and WE DON'T.
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#252 herb_igone_ex_tuga
How about:
We are still waiting!
Oh dear, gone are the heady, halcyon early days of the new millennium. Now NuLabour are relegated to digging holes!
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Tricky this. The lead into this blog indicates a rise in VAT to 20 % was considered, but no thread and no comment to back that up.
Makes you wonder, if that is true, how it can be squared with the continuous claims from the government that we are best placed etc etc.
No other major country in Europe has a VAT rate as high as that. What on earth does it say about economic mismanagement?
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Ponder this for a moment. When the boat that you are in is in danger of sinking without trace do you (a) do nothing or (b) take an axe to the bottom of the boat in order to improve drainage?
For heaven's sake, throw the current bunch of nitwits and their axe overboard and put the Tories (with Vince Cable - oh if only he would defect!!) in charge.
We would certainly end up no worse off!
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Oh dear. I see Delboy/Charlie have taken umbridge again. Oh well.
As a matter of interest, Charles, compared to Gordon Brown, how positive do you think the staff of MFI and Woolworth are this morning?
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Does anyone else think that Tony McNulty and John McFall have a touch of John Prescott about them?
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#252 herb_igone_ex_tuga
How about:
The UK eUniversity. Another NuLabour flop.
If I remember correctly that episode cost GBP10 Million, small change by todays standards!
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This blog should now be closed, further debate is useless.
Why?
Because today in the Times Anatole Kaletsky opined that the Brown/Darling PBR was exactly the correct medicine to cure the patient.
So - we are all doomed!!!!
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Ha ha
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Ha ha ha
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Big reporting this morning that house prices are down but only 0.4% in November!!!
Let me just work that out. It is only the 27th November. There are still 3 days left - 10% of the statistics, and following reading in the Times that many have dropped their prices on average by £17k in recent weeks I think this is playing statistics by somebody.
No more boom and bust anybody??
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What people don't seem able to grasp is with this "New World Order" Brown is playing his purpose out starting off with the big banks being in control of the world. He wants a totalitarian socialist state for the whole world and so far he has managed to encourage other world leaders to comply. The needle is stuck on the VAT issue here but, hey, in his mind it is minor in view of the big gains (he thinks) to be won on the world front.
Of course he is not particularly interested in the ordinary English (or British even) man in the street. He is from Scotland as we know.
Now, is this awful thing in India to do with OTHER nationalisties baulking at the idea of the NEW WORLD ORDER? Maybe they, the terrorists, whoever they are, are protesting. Who knows?
What I do know is Brown is not particularly interested in our small country, its parochialism, industries, culture etc. Cold fish is he.
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What was fascinating to me was reading the biography of the gordon brown site linked above somewhere, because it explains a lot about why he's done what he has done with vat (and also explains the lie about not wanting to raise it to 18.5% afterwards)
Is was fascinating because it proved that throughout his life, his belief in certain ideologies/theories has never really been shaken, even when evidence was clearly against them and they made no logical sense.
When a theory was unpopular in the eyes of the public (eg when thatcher said that the labour idea of murdering the entire private sector was not a good thing) he didn't review his own understanding/analysis of the theory, he stuck to it without thinking, and adjusted his pr to cater for it.
For example, his ideology says that everything should be nationalised and that there should be no such thing as the private sector, and he still believes this, but because the public knows it makes no sense he doesn't carry it out openly because he knows it'd be unpopular to say what he wants to do.
In summary, his whole approach is to stick to his twisted ideology, ignore all evidence/reason, and try to get as much of his way as he can via pr, lies, and bullying.
With that in mind, it's not really much of a surprise that he's developed a scorched earth policy (the vat reduction is a classic example; the only reason for doing it is to scorch the earth, there's no other logical reason for doing something so damaging/stupid)
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283 / 284
Prediction before you have been moderated as acceptable....... will you type:
"ha, ha, ha, ha"
If you like a laugh - can I suggest that you take a look at the Government's Pre Budget Report.
For extra giggles - try and spot how the fiscal stimulus will work.
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I see that Council Tax is projected to rise by an average of 10% next year because of The Icelandic banks collapse and the losses incurred by Councils up and down the country who were ill advised as to where to deposit their surpluses. So that's another avenue of action closed to DC after The GE. I think people are beginning to realise that there will be little room for manoevre whoever comes into power after 2010.
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Latest news! Brown has ordered the purchase of Woolworths, in order to turn the stores into State-run casinos and massage parlours, with Tessa Jowells as CEO, in time for the Olympics.
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Blunkett calls for Mass Volunteering. I think a mass demonstration would be better!
Anyone have any plans on Saturday?
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#284 Laughatthetories
Naw I liked your - They don't like it up 'em - Best
Looks like Draper has another dud!
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Clown @ 283 and 284:
Brilliant argument in favour of Gordon Brown and against The Opposition. Keep it up for goodness sake. I wonder what your compatriots think of this contribution?Perhaps you would be more suited to The CBBC web site.
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Darling is doing what is right - enabling the fluid movement of cash through the economy. It is the only way the economy can be jump started.
Sitting and doing nothing (tories) will lead to deeper trouble.
We will pay for the inflated national debt but this is the (much) lesser of 2 evils.
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247,
Dorothy, thanks for your reply. I often find though that when people complain of media bias, what they really mean is that the media isn't biased towards the viewpoints that they themselves hold.
265,
I don't think this has been ignored at all. It has been perfectly clear that this is a cut in the standard rate of VAT which means that the things you mentioned are not covered, that really goes without saying doesn't it?
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scortched earth policy! give me a break.
Rightly or wrongly I believe GB is trying to do what he believes is right for the people.
I think GB is more honest and less bitter than most give him credit for.
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#290 Phoenix old pal
Ah yes, the olympics. Wonder how they're going to cope now?
Even if we complete the sites on time, and the games are a success, it's just one more burden for us to bear financially for years to come.
I wonder how many sites that are competing for 2016 will want to commit the sums that recent games have cost, and how responsible the IOC might be in encouraging an ever bigger spend.
After all, if one of the best placed economies in the world, with less debt than most of its market competitiors, comes to financial grief, how can anyone else avoid it?
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Quote from Charles on the non issue of a possible VAT hike to 18.5% or even 20%....
"Good job I couldn't be bothered to comment earlier. This topic had the smack of headline chasing about it and the hysterical bile from the Tory crowd has become routine. The real facts are out and that's comment enough."
Of course..the "real facts" as Charles ,and his buddy Delboy would have us believe, now appear to be not so real .
So fellas..where are you now? You've gone eerily quiet.
Could this be because you haven't yet heard from that nice Mr Brown as to how you should respond?
If true that The Treasury was really considering a hike up to 20%,can we assume that The Chancellor was aware of it?
If true that the idea was only dropped last Friday,does this suggest panic within the Government?
How does this all sit with the Fiscal stimulus and the need to protect the poor ?
Your audience is waiting with bated breath, guys.
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286,
Interesting theory, do you have anything to back it up or are you just another paranoid conspiracy-obsessed type who thinks that all of the global media is engaged in a convoluted plot except for 'alternative' sources on the internet which of course can just be accepted as fact?
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Just because Labour say they know what they're doing doesn't mean they do
The sad thing is Brown will cling on til 2010 and nobody will get a say until it's too late - maybe the Thais have got the right idea
Here's to a crushing defeat...
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phoenix @ 290:
If that were true Harriet Harman would jump up and down in fury at the very thought of providing men out there with a bit of pleasure!
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#283,284
I presume, in your little world, you mean those who don't vote Labour, which is something over 60 percent of the populatioon you're laughing at.
Symptomatic of being a labour goon I'm afraid.
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#270 jonathan_cook
Jonathan your link screws up. I am curious about this one. Is there any way you can fix the link?
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294:
You are simply aping Brown and Darling. Never at any stage have The Opposition advocated doing nothing to counter the current economic problems. Please find me a quote to support your worn out argument.
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#294 dragon
What is all this rubbish about sitting and doing nothing?
Last time I checked, the labour party was in power, not the conservatives. It's a very cheap jibe to say they'll do nothing, because right now they can do nothing.
If the conservatives, and liberals come to that, were to provide details of alternatives that worked the government would grab them immediately.
Tell you what, get 'em to call an election, and then we'll see about policies, and who has a sensible plan of action.
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#296 Dragon
Don't worry, Gordon's taking all the credit he can lay his big clunking hands on, yours and mine and everybody else's.
Tell you what, never mind credit, I'll give you and him 10p each in cash if you'll go and sing your nasty little song somewhere else. Somewhere that might apprecaite you. Where? Oh I don't know, Scotland perhaps.
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303 Roll-on-2010
Try this
http://dizzythinks.net/
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303 Roll-On-2010
Sorry - posted the wrong link.... eventually:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article5240805.ece
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#294
We will pay for the inflated national debt but this is the (much) lesser of 2 evils.
How will we pay the inflated national debt? Taxing the rich at 45% won't do it. The interest alone on one trillion quid is 50 billion quid (at 5%). Taxing the rich at 45% will only raise 2bn quid. Even if you tax the rich at 100% you will only raise an extra (2 x 12) = 24bn quid.
So if you tax the rich at 100% you will still only cover half the interest. Not that the rich will hang around if you try to actually do that of course.
Where's the other 26bn quid a year going to come form.
Where's the other 1,000 bn going to come from?
Which other taxes will need to be raised. Or which services will you be cutting?
The UK has been doomed by Gordon Brown's arrogance, incompetence and sheer negligence.
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#267 and #296 My-Pet-dragon
Looks like the wheels have started to fall off the NuLabour tractor.
And you are calling these numpties Scottish. I think they have lived in England to long.
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I have to admit my first thought was to believe the story that this VAT proposal was some SNAFU. An idea that had been tossed around and then discounted but accidentally included in the draft.
I'm coming around to the conclusion that the only SNAFU was to fail to remove it. It certainly goes some way towards explaining how the sums, horrendous as they are, would add up.
So, situation normal there.
Give you some bogus numbers, some bogus growth projections and there you go. Another bogus budget.
We can be sure of one thing however. No government employees will lose their job as a result of this recession. They're safe. They can continue to vote Labour. There will be no strikes since the only people who really go on strike these days are the public sector and they'll be grateful to be guaranteed a job with 100,000 of bankers and retailers losing theirs every quarter.
It'll be getting to the point in a few months time where the only people the banks will lend to will be government employees.
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#294 my-pet-dragon
I take it that you will not sit and do nothing, but go out and spend, spend, spend as Gordon has told you to do.
Yeah right.
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Looks like the PBR has gone down well in the press.
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So the tory trolling continues and the entire 6 tory faithful remain blind and clueless to the current world down-turn.
Why cant any of the part time tory mob offer a sensible alternative to the current down-turn?
Why? because they dont have anything to offer.
The do nothing party with the do nothing followers, silent and violent.
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#314 derekbarker
Oh Derek. When will you understand that this is not a downturn, it's a full-blown recession. You really must learn to keep up.
If you honestly think that the majority of people in this country still support Labour, then I feel sorry for you, I really do.
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The PBR is unbelievable, this government and particularly the prime minster are culpable for the damage that is being done to our country and its economy.
As mentioned in articles elsewhere if this where a public company the Mr Brown would be facing charges bordering on criminal negligence
Time to call for an election
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/ukelection2009/
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#307 and #308 jonathan_cook
Thanks Johnathan. As you have probably noticed my previous blog came from the first link.
I will look at your second link.
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#315
Shellingout, and you fail to grasp the nettle
and offer a sensible tory policy to the said position.
Another rant and another pointless attack
Can you not even muster up support for the high street retail workers facing redundancy.
Jeez! are you aware that the yougov polls
are showing the tory lead is in free-fall?
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#308 jonathan_cook
Johnathan I am not surprised at this one, but it does look stark when you read it.
It’s a crying shame what those NuLabour idiots have done to the education standards in this country!
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Why cant any of the part time tory mob offer a sensible alternative to the current down-turn?
Why? because they dont have anything to offer.
Is it that you don't listen or what?
The sensible alternative to Labour 'strategy' which is best described as 'Squander on regardless' is to not get into this financial situation in the first place. Sensible folk repeatedly implored the Labour beserkers to get control of squandering over the years but then, as now, they just leered triumphally and ignored any well-intentioned advice.
So, given that we are here, practically bankrupt and looking at an 8% of GDP deficit purely to maintain public service jobs I would be looking to cut costs.
I would fire everybody at the BBC licencing unit and sell the BBC to Al Jazeera or Rupert Murdoch or UNITE or USDAW. Basically whoever offered the most money.
I'd fire half the people at the DVLC.
I'd abolish ID cards and fire everybody associated with them.
I'd abolish HIPS.
I'd simplify the tax system to a flat tax, abolish tax credits and fire 50% of the people at HMRC.
For starters.
I'd save a fortune.
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Got a problem?
Need help?
Call the Equalizer.
0800-GORDON-BROWN
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#319
It?s a crying shame what those NuLabour idiots have done to the education standards in this country!
Yep. Getting straight 'A's is now so meaningless as a measure of ability that many private schools are moving wholesale to the International Baccalaureate.
The best bit is that the Labour apologists then point to the 'failure' of private schools to pass so many GCSE's and A Levels (because they're all sitting the IB instead) as evidence that the state sector is improving its results compared to private schools. Thus vindicating in their own diseased minds all those squillions of squandering.
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#321
Got a problem?
Need help?
Call the Equalizer.
I didn't think the idea was to get us all equally in debt.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#320
Wow! Do you see my point about callous tory avengers.
Is that offical tory policy? Hmmmmm
That response is why NO- one should ever consider a tory government again.
Dead wood, adrift and out of touch.
Any-more policies, the advert is good!
Carry on............................................
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http://www.conservatives.com/News/News_stories/2008/11/Keep_Britain_working_tax_cuts_for_new_jobs.aspx
I think the above counts as not doing nothing. The job of the opposition is to oppose, or am I wrong? I think it must show something about the government's confidence in their own position that they keep reminding us that the opposition is opposed.
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All this 'do nothing' Tories.
Well, actually, that's all they can do.
They are not in power, they cannot therefore do anything.
They are there to oppose and they have already said what they would do.
If you missed it, do keep up.
As for the Brown's cheerleader's, nothing at all constructive except sniping at the personalities and demanding more taxes to soak the rich, more government spending and more nationalisation.
It didn't work in the 1970s, it will not work now.
Also, if the Tories are the 'do nothing' party, why have the French and German governments rejected any kind of fiscal stimulus programme?
Maybe because it isn't the right thing to do?
I would say I wish the Labour government were a 'do nothing' party too because every time they do something, it is invariably the wrong thing to do.
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#318 derekbarker
If you had read my previous posts you would see that all my sympathies lie with the people who have lost their jobs. My son is one of those people.
Sadly there are going to be thousands more claiming unemployment benefit and Gordon is partly responsible for it. You can't blame anyone else for your shortcomings.
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#327
Phaeton, funny that, I'm sure Camera On Cameron said he would work with the government. I guess you missed that one as well?
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Kind of figured my tirade against Derek would be referred to the mods somehow. Bit too close to the knuckle perhaps.
Suffice it to say, in absence of that comment that the football terrace style sneering that Derek and his bretheren are indulging in is getting wearisome in the extreme. Its not politics guys, grow up please. You're attempting to defend the indefensible and its not working.
Most of the electorate know they're being lied to. Those that have been bought off dont care, those that havent been would rather emigrate than have another 5 years of this.
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314 Derek Barker
Brown snorted when informed that Ireland and Latvia were said to be following the approach suggested by the Conservatives.
Hate to break it to you but Italy and Germany, like the Conservatives, are more sceptical about the benefits of a massive fiscal stimulus.
You have to stop listening to the Labour indoctrination broadcast that the "Conservatives are the do nothing party" and open your eyes, ears and mind.
There is an alternative to the mad-woman-in-a-shop-throwing -money-about model
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#325
Is that offical tory policy? Hmmmmm
Sadly not.
If it were they'd be 40 points ahead in the polls instead of just 10.
Just as Brown and the left apologists go to their 'happy place' blaming the yanks and the banks and Thatcher for the economic debacle of their own making and hope to consolidate their vote that way.
I think the Tories should use the same trick. Nobody likes paying for their TV licence. Nobody likes the DVLC. Nobody likes HMRC. So they are the obvious places to get rid of jobs and save money. Helped by the fact that more than 50% of the jobs are totally unnecessary. If the government still wants to hire them to keep 'employment' up then they could halve their pay, give them a shovel and have them build some roads. Or pick up some litter.
At least they'd be doing something useful.
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Derek!
You poor sod, the only person rushing to agree with you on this blog is yourself.
Not saying that this blog is a typical cross section of the country, look around you, no one believes in this government.
The Tory lead free fall, even if there was one it's still a Tory lead.
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321 Charles_E_Hardwidge
I'm with Vince Cable and nominate this TV Show for Labour.
TV Show
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Still no comment from the usual suspects about the killed off hike in VAT to 20%.
Come on..don't be shy,and give us your explanation
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Derek,
Brown reminds me of Shelly Levene in Glengarry Glen Ross.
Just give us one more chance, we can win back those glory days.
TOO LATE! Too late my friend. You had your chance and you blew it, not Michael Caine - Italian Job Blew it, but Death Star - Star Wars Blew it!
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#327
Phaenton, one further point: the EU announced only a couple of days ago
a further 200Bn stimulus for the EU.
Oh' dont mention europe in front of a tory?
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#323
No, it's to get us all equally unemployed (except the public sector, obviously).
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Gordon Brown names the date for the end of the recession:
Gordon Brown has decreed that the UK economy will start to grow again in the 3rd Quarter 2009. This will prove to be another fudged figure, but for a laugh here is a countdown to keep track of how long it is until the Brown recession ends.
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This hapless Prime Minister and equally hapless Chancellor have no idea on how to run the economy.
When the PM was Chancellor he could not even work out the effect his cancelling of the 10p tax band would have on the low paid. That mess was not even sorted out properly.
What chance have we got of this duo coming up with any credible plan to sort out the recession when they "inadvertently" leave in an intention, which they have now discounted, to raise VAT. Also they made an "error" in the amount of tax to be charged on a bottle of whisky which they had to apologise for.
For years now Brown has buried his head in the sand about the amount of personal debt being run up. How did he expect people able to service mortages 5 or 6 times their income or pay back many thousands of pounds on multiple credit cards.
I think he has been living in lala land.
He retroric about "hard working families" "this all started in America" " I believe" etc etc is wearing a bit thin. Trouble is fewer and fewer people are believing in him any longer.
His giveaway of tax payers money to the banks has not worked. The Government, in the guise of Peter Mandleson who now appears to be more in charge of the economy than the Chancellor and has a status of power within the party and Government equal to that of Gordon Brown, is now threatening nationalisation of the banks unless they do as he wants. Just where is this all going to end?
We are bystanders watching a car crash in slow motion and feel powerless to do anything about it. We are just being swept along the the current of events. Gordon Brown is doing what he always accuses the opposition of and that is playing party politics with the economy.
His plan is a very short term one designed to get him to the next General Election, thereafter who knows what will happen. What I do know is that in the New Year there will be a day of reckoning for the huge amount of personal debt on credit cards which the banks will then be clawing back. As this will affect a much higher percentage of people than the mortgage holders who are already in trouble it will make the banking crisis look like chicken feed. It just seems plain daft therefore that Gordon Brown is encouraging people to spend, spend, spend to get the country out of the recession. He is encouraging more people to get into debt which is where this all started off in the first place.
We have the economic strategy of the mad house. We had better started turning off the lights now or else there won`t be one left to turn off when the last person leaves the country.
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of that comment that the football terrace style sneering that Derek and his bretheren are indulging in is getting wearisome in the extreme.
It's not nice but it's good for the opposition vote. I remember what really turned me against the Tories post 1992 was the sneering, arrogant attitude of Portillo. Treating everybody with utter contempt with his wafer-thin majority.
That's where Labour are now. Their lies have bought them three elections and they think they're untouchable. Maybe. For another 18 months.
After that they can spend another two decades bleating in the wilderness the better to contemplate their crimes against the British people.
Lying to us all for a full decade for one. Treating us all with contempt for another. Destroying the economy (again) for another.
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271. herb_igone_ex_tuga - very nice expose of the stealth-taxing mentality.
This is off topic, but I just noticed something interesting ... the main headline on the BBC News Politics page at 1319 GMT was "We'll defeat terrorism - Cameron".
The report started with what Mr Cameron has said in response to the terrorist attacks in Mumbai, and only then went on to Mr Brown and Mr Milliband.
I find this fascinating. Surely the Prime Minister should automatically be at the top of the list? This is regardless of whether or not you believe in BBC pro-Labour bias. Purely from a status point of view, the Prime Minister's pronouncements should be considered more worthy of report than words from the Leader of the Opposition.
Of course, it didn't last long. At 1330 the headline had already changed to "UK leaders pledge Indian support", and Mr Brown does now appear first in the report.
Still, perhaps I hear the winds of change.
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Jonathan, the Germany economy has struggled to come to terms since the reunionification took place.
Ireland was giving A proper dressing down from the EU when they tried to capitalise on the banking situation.
I'm sure you will be aware of the recent 200Bn stimulus package for the EU.
Jon, the conservative ideals are dead, the whole world now reject conservative agendas.
Stop kidding your-self on Jonathan, the game is up for the tory tosh mobsters.
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#332
U9461192, Well sir, the usual point of support for a political party, is, you read thier manifesto and make a judgement whether you agree with their terms.
If you have a separate agenda (like yours)
then can I suggest to try and find a political movement that supports your outrageous ideas.
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for those labour supporters asking what tory policy is regarding vat and why people aren't hearing too much of it, take a look at guido's blog under the new "Brown's Whips are Paid Yobs" topic.
Tells you a lot about the tactics that Brown uses and why you can't hear what the tories are saying.
It also helps prove my point that Brown is nothing more than an arrogant stupid childish bully.
I don't believe everything I read on either side of the fence, but to me guido's topic rings true and is backed up by 2 national newspapers.
Try to hold a proper grown up debate about a trillions pounds of debt, and Brown's rent-a-mob just shouts "bundle", piles in, and shouts as loudly as they can to disrupt proceedings and to stop the debate by acting like a bunch of hooligans.
So, go on labour supporters; try and defend that action/approach from your glorious leader.
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#326 fragmeister
The job of the opposition is to oppose, or am I wrong?
You're wrong.
The job of opposition is to:
a) Scrutinise and improve legislation that is broadly 'right', oppose legislation and policy that is 'wrong'
b) Represent the political views of those with different views to the Governing Party (e.g. those in the Home Counties against Government redistribution to the poor and deprived areas largely - but not wholly - in the North)
The job of opposition is not to cynically oppose things for political advantage, or to hide facts and mislead the public for political advantage.
Cameron used to believe this - see his party's support for the Schools White Paper 2006 (though that was to embarass Blair more than anything, and was in the times where he was posing as 'ending Punch and Judy' and the 'heir to Blair' - don't here much of either of these things any more).
Now it's oppose anything, don't come up with any credible alternatives and do what's right for the Conservative Party rather than the country (try and stop any action to combat recession to make it deeper and the Government more unpopular to make it easier to pick up the reigns in 2010).
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@314
I see you are still on yesterdays rhetoric Derek
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#335 dontneed
The Government considered increasing VAT to 20%.
Wow - this government are incredibly bad aren't they. They look at the evidence for and against different options before choosing one to go with.
I'd prefer a government that chose an ideological position or one based on 'a feeling in their stomach' and stuck to that regardless of the evidence. I mean - looking at more than 1 option. Ridiculous.
Looking forward to this approach in 2010 - all signs from Dave and Gideon that this is their approach to government.
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Coo, somebody's set light to Barker's tail. Hasn't provided him with a better sense of what's actually going on of course.
The trouble with people who believe in and practice the politics of envy normally don't have a constructive bone in their bodies, even less be capable of con structive thought.
All we get is dogma and a diatribe against anybody who doesn't wholeheartedly and thoughtlessly subscribe to the twaddle that comes out of Downing St.
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#342 Scottish_cheeselog
See, foreign policy leaves old Gordon flummoxed. He doesn't know how to handle anything that is not directly connected to money, and he's only got an elusive grasp on that, at best.
Otherwise we wouldn't be in the parlous state we seem to be in, and we know who's fault it is. Scream and shout as much as they like, and they do, the government and their supporters know who's to blame, and they know we know.
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@165 Balhamu
You dispute the debt figures.
But they were supplied by the Labour mouthpeice Auntie B surely they cant be wrong.
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314. derekbarker asks...
Why cant any of the part time Tory mob offer a sensible alternative to the current down-turn?
I can Derek. The situation and solution is quite simple.
The boom of the last decade has been fun, but its gone on for too long, supported by extravagant government spending and public sector employment. The holiday was great, we all ate and drank way more than we really could afford all because “we were worth it” Spending was and still isnt based on any form of affordability.
So to the solutions. (and these should have been started 12 to 18 months ago)
Cut back on public spending
Stop recruitment to minimal levels.
Move people from non jobs into the sharp end of public services. ( I want my nurses, teachers and social workers, but I do not want smoking cessation advisors in prisons)
Cut back on the massive levels of waste.
Freeze public sector pay where ever possible.
Renegotiate all senior Public Sector bosses salaries and stop all bonuses for 2 years.
Review individuals in terms of productivity and remove (fire) staff that refuse to perform and provide value.
Start to reduce taxation on the wealth and job creators, especially those who export products and also those who bring in foreign investment.
Accept the fact that a recession is necessary to correct the current situation and allow it to run its course for the majority of people.
Protect the young and the old from its effects as much as possible. By that I mean use any spare money to increase child benefit and winter fuel allowances etc. Not to reduce Vat in order to cut the price of a 1k TV by 25 quid.
Make any people on unemployment benefit (who have no dependants) work for it or at the very least do charity work.
Now I know you will think that this is nasty Derek, but basically your credit card is maxed out after the holiday and your bank manager is telling you its time to pay a chunk of it off. If you had gone to Spain instead of the Seychelles then the bill wouldnt be so big and nor would the bill you have to repay.
In short hunker down and get on with it. And dont…. DONT borrow more to pay off your card.
Its time for some pain. Stop wining and work harder.
Its the only way out.
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Someone has thoughtfully posted a handy electronic countdown which continually updates how long is left before the planet's economic leader has decreed that the UK recession shall end:
Countdown
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#343 Mr Barker
Now that you've brought it up, what about this EU package?
My understanding is that its for the EU, not the eurozone. Everything I've understaood about this is that it is for the entire 27 nation membership of the EU, which includes us.
Now, here's the point. Are we, specifically the UK economy, going to get anything from this package? or are we, as always, going to be paying in so that others can benefit at our expense?
And, furthermore, is the cost of our particiapation in this included in the PBR? Or, as with some other things, something thats slipped past unnoticed?
I think we deserve to be told.
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Gordo & Ali are nae bad blokes.
Solid characters. They've got that Scottish resolve that will get us through these tough times. At Uni these two were hitting the books.
Now you want to hand the economy over to the Bullingdon Club! No thanks.
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Seems to be a bit of a mod slowdown.
Maybe we're waiting for government supporters to get back from lunch, so they can weigh in with ill considered comments, their normal stock in trade when engaging in political discussion with people who have better arguments.
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gg@287
If you found the site interesting, suggest you try "Gordon Brown, Prime Minister" by Tom Bower. I'm finding it absolutely fascinating.
For anyone interested, the website is:
http://www.gordonbrown.co.uk/
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#346 balhamu
I'm afraid you're slightly incorrect in the middle of your post - it seems to be the government that hides facts and misleads the people for political advantage.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
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#346
How can anything the Tories, Lib Dems, SNP or anyone else say between now and the next General Election make the recession deeper? What utter nonsense. Now, clearly, not only are Labour apologists blaming the mess we're in entirely on America, any worsening of the situation is because the opposition parties don't agree with a government that has a working majority of over sixty MPs.
The only reason Labour want consensus is so that come the election, when we are even deeper in the mire, they can claim everyone else said they agreed with what they were doing. None of the opposition parties agree with the PBR and no amount of spin can alter that fact. If you are so convinced it is correct, what difference does it make if the opposition oppose it? In fact, you should be glad, because come the election, you should be proved right and be able to make political capital out of that fact.
The fact that Labour are making such a big deal about the opposition to the PBR makes clear their own insecurities about its contents and their obvious fears that they are, indeed, simply making matters worse.
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This is not surprising really, in that Brown has throughout his political career been adept at plotting tax rises whilst trying to appear open and on the side of fairness. But as always the paranoia of being out down by a political adversary ususally means he is likely to make on the hoof changes for political rather than practical changes. The boxing in of the Torries this time will only demonstrate in the long term that it was a self serving exercise by Brown. He has to go!
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#347
Pot-Kettle, no gerrymandering here, just trying to give an honest view to todays circumstances.
Would you care to share your take and fix on todays situations, Osborne and Cameron
are not setting the heather on fire in terms of motions on this crisis (are they)
Giving the PBR and when the budget comes
if the tories do indeed back the cut in VAT
will you agree with that position?
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Shouldn't someone just put the 'For Sale' sign on the White Cliffs of Dover?
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343 Derek Barker
The Australian press are debating this question:
Should the government allow the budget to go into deficit to prevent a recession?
Fixing the roof when the sun was shining
You will need to click onto this link and vote "yes" to ensure Gordon Brown's spend, spend, spend plan is followed by all other countries.
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derek@320
"I'm sure Camera On Cameron said he would work with the government. I guess you missed that one as well?"
Correct. Now explain how he can do that with someone who nicks his ideas, is blatantly rude to him at every opportunity and encourages his drones to do likewise?
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Any reason why comments 336 to 340 are awaiting moderation?
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# 320 U9461192
Where can I sign up to your Party?
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What is this nonsense about 'doing nothing?'
Doing something has landed us with the largest budget deficit on record; the biggest level of household debt to personal income in the world; the largest level of govenrment debt since records began.
Portraying this as some kind of 'achievement' after ten years of benign global inflation; cheap imported goods and labour and globally historic low levels of interest rates is farcical.
Gordon Brown was responsible for noen of the benign conditions yet he managed to let spending, personal and government and leveraged debt with it, get completely out of control.
The biggest housing bubble ever and what did he do; NOTHING.
The only 'do nothing' party is newlabour who did nothing abour personal debt; did nothing about national debt; did nothing about our crumbling power and road infrastructure; did nothing about the railways except let Railtrack go bust; did nothing but meddle with education standards but did nothing to improve them.
No wonder the 'do nothing' party trips so easily off the tongues of newlabour apologists; they've been doing precisely nothing for eleven years.
Now do something and call an election.
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#320 & #332
So your economic policy basically consists of plucking percentages out of the air and firing that number of people in departments you don't like.
Thankfully you are not in a position to implement such simplistic, sub-tabloid nonsense and never will be.
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Come on mods, liven up.
This ones got some legs on it, but the slow moderation takes the pace off the posts.
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Balhamu:
No, you still dont get it.... Government cannot expect to carry the support of the electorate if, when questioned repeatedly trot out the line of "you havent got any ideas, you wouldnt do this, you wouldnt do that, you are either with us or against us.... You didnt do any better 20 years ago, so our decision is the right one."
A bad decision is still a bad decision, no matter how much flapping around and diversion and spinning is indulged in. No matter how you try and dress it up, something that may well have had good, altruistic intentions (FSA, Pension raids, Tax Credits, CSA, Poll Tax, et al) does not translate into good policy if it is badly implemented or badly managed.
And as for "dont do anything, do whats right for the Conservative Party"... Oh come on... The only reason N.R wasnt allowed to go to the wall was because it was in a Labour heartland. And what about Lord Cashpoint and the fact that the Labour party has the proud boast of the only serving prime minister ever to be interviewed under oath by the police? Not to mention the muzzling of the SFO re the Saudi/BAE scandal? And the PFI Timebomb referred to earlier?
You can only convincingly lie to all of the people for so long before they see right through you and see Gordon in particular, for what he really is.. someone who wasnt careful enough about what he wished for. Time is running out.
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#351 Pot_Kettle
Aside from your yawn-inducing swing for the BBC's impartiality (just because it isn't ultra-right-wing doesn't make it biased).
My point was more YOU disagree with those debt figures (I think they are too low as well, but that is by the by)
If you think debt is 30% of GDP in the UK, why are you fussing about the size of our debt? This would suggest Labour have done really well at paying back debt.
And the comparison with Germany (debt=45% GDP) would still look favourable.
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#355 dragon
The posters handbook says engage brain before approaching keyboard and clicking on Post Comment.
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#359 obangobang
Spot on.
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@348..balhamu.
"I'd prefer a government that chose an ideological position or one based on 'a feeling in their stomach' and stuck to that regardless of the evidence. I mean - looking at more than 1 option."
I agree with you..however my point was not that they considered the hike..it was the timing of the killing it off. Also..how could such a hike help the poor.
I would refer you to my post @298 to see what I was really asking.
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I have downloaded the Tory manifestos for 2001 and 5.
The responsibility for the mess that we are in lies firmly with Gordon Brown and Nu Labour however many times he says it's all america's fault.
McCavity is never there when things go wrong
Conservative 2001 Manifesto
Common sense means less tax and regulation for people and businesses
Lower taxes for businesses, families, savers, pensioners and motorists
Public spending not to outstrip the growth of the economy
No more stealth taxes - transparent economic policy
Cut the cost of regulation on business every year
Keep the pound (thats a policy nicked by McCavity)
It is getting harder for people and businesses in Britain to earn a living.
It should be getting easier. The tough decisions and hard choices made by the British people and Conservative Governments in the 1980s and 1990s transformed our economic prospects, and made Britain's businesses competitive.
But instead of advancing further we are slipping back. People who have to watch every penny, see more and more of their money taken by the Government. Businesses are spending too much time dealing with new regulations, with too little time to focus on their customers.
It would be disastrous to re-elect a Government whose central economic policy is to increase tax and regulation by stealth.
It's time for common sense.
We will cut taxes on people and businesses and cut government interference and regulation in order to match the competition in the global marketplace.
Conservative 2005 Manifesto
Value for Money and Lower Taxes
Today, government is spending too much, wasting too much and taxing too much. Britain cannot continue indefinitely to spend more than she is earning without higher taxes or higher interest rates – either of which will harm our economic prospects. If we are to secure our future prosperity, government must once again start to live within its means.
The consequences of Labour’s profligacy are now plain to see. Last year, average living standards fell for the first time in over a decade –and the poorest 10 per cent of Britons became poorer.
We need to change direction.
The way in which a government allocates taxpayers’ money demonstrates its values. By going to war on waste and ending ineffective public spending programmes, we will achieve three simple aims.
First, we will give taxpayers value for money. We will spend the sameas Labour would on the NHS, schools, transport and international development, and more than Labour on police, defence andpensions. But we will save £12 billion a year by 2007-8 by cutting back other expenditure. We will freeze civil service recruitment, remove 235,000 bureaucratic posts, and cut or abolish 168 public bodies.
Over the period to 2011-12, we will increase government spending by 4 per cent a year, compared to Labour’s plans (on current trends) to increase spending by 5 per cent a year.
Second, we will avoid further Labour stealth taxes by reducing government borrowing. Of our £12 billion savings, we will use £8 billion to reduce Labour’s excessive borrowing, so that we can avoid the tax rises that would otherwise be needed.
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My-Pet-Dragon.
What a balanced person you are.
A Class ridden chip on each shoulder.
Get over it for heavens sake.
You seem to very conveniently forget (for a change) that the man who got you elected, a certain Anthony Blair, was as much a toff by his education and upbringing as any of the Tories you're trying to slag off. You seriously think that had it been a choice between Major and Gordon in 97 that Labour would have got in? Not a chance. Thatchers 2 mid-term wins, plus Major's win in 92 were for the same reason that the Conservatives lost 3 on the bounce.. because they were unelectable.
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Well! Carrots at least you've giving an honest answer, however I fear that you
fail to recognise just how serious your do nothing approach would effect this nation.
In the long term your said position would be more catastrophic to the nations wealth.
Creating mass long term unemployment would stagnate the ability to steer a course
for recovery.
Personal preformance wages are unmanagable and often more a conflict of interest than not.(emergency services)
We continue to be miles apart on the public sector and the needs of communities, I simply dont believe in stream-lining public services.
History always deals it hand Carrots,at the begining of the 20th century young men give thier today for our tomorrow.
Today Carrots, the options is, people will give today, we have to go on, and yes, there is always a price to pay, but like history, its about doing the right thing at the right time, people count, all people count
and together we must protect each other.
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343
Having watched to yesterdays PMQs and commons debate, I tend to agree with Vince Cable when he hinted that the governments figures and forecasts on which this whole "fiscal stimulus" action is based are very optimistic to say the least.
The track record of the accuracies of this governments forecasts is poor to say the least. Perhaps you, or anyone else can explain how there will be a ballistic increase in the accuracy of the predictions so that all of tis will work? And whilst you're at it, tell us what happens if this plan doesn't work out.
Vince Cable also pointed out that the governments predictions for the public sector pensions was way off what it actually is, almost an order of magnitude out in fact. He also pointed out that this out of control growth is simply unsustainable in the long term and has to be addressed. I would agree with this and say the same about the number of public sector employees - not nurses, police, fireman, social workers etc - but the plethora of politically correct non jobs (PCNJs) which drain the resources of the country.
The Guardian jobs website shows no sign of a recruitment down turn for these PCNJs - so how is our troubled economy going to support this army of non productive workers - and their gold plated pensions?
Again, this is simply not sustainable in the long term. It really is that simple, and no amount of government borrowing will address the issue that as a country we are spending far too much money that we have not really got.
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346. balhamu
I disagree
The duty of an Opposition is to propose nothing, oppose everything, and to turn out the government”.
It should be the voice of the voiceless, and offer an alternative position to that of the ruling government.
They can put all their policies together at the next election.
I want them spending all their time and effort (given their limited resources) on testing the metal of the incumbents position.
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The FT's Westminster blog quotes Mrs Merkel as saying:
“Excessively cheap money in the US was a driver of today’s crisis. I am deeply concerned about whether we are now reinforcing this trend through measures being adopted in the US and elsewhere and whether we could find ourselves in five years facing the exact same crisis.”
And Steffen Kampeter, her budget adviser, says:
"I see the danger of creating a new bubble. Massive interest rate cuts and massive borrowing may bring about new problems. How good is a policy package if it has to be changed every other week? How good is it for confidence? The latest British decisions on VAT [value added tax] and income tax, for instance, are inconsistent. Better to wait a bit longer and put forward more durable solutions.”
Merkel’s central point is that underpriced debt got us into this problem, so more of it won’t get us out.
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#361 Mr Barker
I'm not sure what you're looking for. The tories have stated their (op)position to the government measures in the emergency debate. I think everybody is clear that they DO NOT SUPPORT the government proposals.
I don't know when parliamentary procedure changed to make it compulsory for any oppostion party to justify their opposition with alternative proposals, but I'm sure that's not how it's supposed to work.
If we had government by consensus there would have been a referendum on the EU constitution and, since I think the situation warrants it, there ought to be onw on this, since we'll be liable to the costs for years to come.
Since we don't have this kind of democracy, then the government can use its parliamentary majority to force the issues through, and then have to stand or fall on the consequences of their action at a later date, i.e. in 2010.
Pathetically, what they are looking for is to share the blame with other parties. They can't even own up to their own shortcomings, even when they are blatantly exposed, as at present.
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Anatole Kaletsky
"Mr Kaletsky is frequently lampooned in the Private Eye, who highlight various and often wildy speculative economic and political predictions made in his journalism, which turn out to be wide of the mark.2
Well, Anatole would be a welcome member of the Treasury's team of economists.
They have got it wrong so many times that a decent student from 1970 would have been able to point out that "projections" should not be the same as "well-I-guess-if-that's-what-you-want-to-hear"stooges who cost US a lot in taxes.
(Even students in the arts could probably have worked out that blowing up a balloon did NOT represent real growth in an economy. But, then, students were expected to learn things, not have examinations adjusted to "meet" their hopes of good grades...)
All this "Keynesian" stuff is a bit odd.
It never worked in the past.
So why do people believe that it could hope that it should work today.
Produce stuff. Eat it, use it, or sell it if you've got some left over. Live.
It's been like that for 3,000 years.
You can't "borrow" next year's harvest.
If it doesn't happen, you starve.
I was almost convinced by Brown in 1997/8/9. Lost any faith in 2001. The man has deliberately created a credit-based society, where poor people can only live if they go cap-in-hand to a government teat.
Pity that the government no longer has any milk to offer...
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#367
Nice one Robin.
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#377 barker
Have you been drinking intergalactic gargle blasters (ack Douglas Adams) or what?
The last two paragraphs of your rant are dire, to say the least.
Attempting to equate the sacrifice that millions of people made in the most pointless war ever to the price we will have to pay for the most pointless government ever is beneath contempt.
If you had an ounce of decency you would recant immediately.
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I have just been reading The Beano, otherwise known as the PBR.
Page 188: Key Assumptions, UK claimant unemployment count rises from 0.98, recent levels, to 1.41 million at end 2009, and to 1.55 million at end 2010, based on national audit assumptions for the Budget 2008. It's already nearly 2 million (Woolworths, MFI).
Now this is clearly nonsense. I'm not paid by the State (or anyone) to make the obvious point that the Government is using out of date statistics to present a more favourable picture of Labour economic (mis-) management. And Brown's public debt projections (serious politicans for serious times) are based on this. I pointed out in previous posts that Treasury growth projections were significantly less than IMF projections.
Being a non-trained economist I await the usual Labour bloggers to defend this part of the PBR.
Iraq WMD. PBR.
Really sorry about the staff at Woolworths. My mother took me there when I was a child, and they were always kind.
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#380
We're back to my favourite theme, which of course will bring this whole thing to it's knees unfortunately.
The institutions that the government expects to buy the newly issued debts are theones who have
A) experienced large losses on their existing portfolios
B) be inundated with alternative offers from the US, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Japan, Chine, Australia, in fact anybody who needs to plug a budget deficit
C) where the investors are not natural holders of sterling, they will have to buy it on the exchange market, pushing the price up, and diminishing our export price advantage, if there is one - they won't be happy if it continues to fall
D) be expecting a better rate of interest from us compared to the other offerers of debt
E) expect a fiscally responsible approach to the whole issue of debt management, else they won't have the confidence that we will be able to service the debt long term.
Don't know, but I'm sure we fail most of those criteria, unless of course somebody has a cunning plan to force the value of the pound down so low that the only way for it is back up, then everybody will plough in for our debt.
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#375
I made a typing error. It happens. I meant to say that IMF growth figures for the UK economy are less than those projected by the UK Treasury. My point, of course, was that this illustrates the optimistic (if that is the right word) borrowing forecasts in the PBR.
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How does Barker come to the conclusion that there are only 6 Conservative faithful on here? Seems like an exercise in underestimation much like that displayed many times by our beloved Leader.
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#379 carrots
Isn't that rather short-sighted?
What if there are good policies that the Government are introducing (e.g. FOI legislation) and the opposition party disagrees on relatively minor points because "well, it has to oppose things" (e.g. as happened with FOI - the belief was that Government was more likely to voluntarily release information into the public domain than if forced to do so by law, and that the only people interested in such a law were those crazy lefties, so the Conservatives voted against)?
Doesn't this either become embarassing when they have power and have to perform handbrake-turns on everything that has gone before, or constrain government into a sub-optimal path of action once it has been elected?
The Punch and Judy"everything the Government do is completely useless because they are the Labour party" makes for more exciting political theatre maybe? That's the only value opposing everything because, "well, that's what an opposition does." can add to our democracy
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Four day week at jaguar how long before this goverhment introduces a three day week
BAck to the 70's
I'm investing in Flare manufacturers, Fluffy dice makers, Second hand Cortina's and Glam rock bands
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#389 balhamu
Unbelievable. Reading this latest missive of yours on parliamentary behaviour leads me to believe that throughout their own long years of opposition, of which, thankfully, there have been many, the labour party has never opposed government initiatives, being totally altruistic in their approach.
Do you really believe what you are typing? Show me where Labpour opposition supported conservative government initiatives.
Do you really think that opposition parties win elections by saying they would do only what the existing government would do, but better? I know that's how Labour won the 1997 election, and then the 2001 and 2005 elections, but it ain't going to work next time.
They will have to defend their record.
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A scheme to improve waste management has received £138m Private Finance Initiative (PFI) funding.
Oh no more off the book financing by HMG
When will they stop.
Shhhh if you listen very carefully you can here the IMF bailiffs creeping up on No10
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#389
Given the government's majority, why would they be forced into a "sub-optimal path of action" (classic NuLabour speak if ever I heard it)? Unless of course, government policy is so unpopular, it can't even whip its own MPs into the right lobby (42 days detention, anyone?).
Why do they need a smokescreen provided by opposition parties, unless they are so unsure of their own proposals?
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299. spectacularjonesy
Suggest you don't take my word for it but make up your own mind = do a Google search on New World Order and look it up on You Tube also.
What I do know is Hitler was also in favour of globalisation. Think about it.
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Nick
When will this Government ever tell voters the truth ? ...
The Prime Minister shamefully and constantly accuses the Tories of being '..the do nothing Party .. which is just dishonest rhetoric. And CLEARLY that Master of Mischief and Manipulation who is again orchestrating the press propaganda machine at No 10 has been ensuring that ALL Ministers have been trained like parrots to repeat this ridiculous soundbite.
Apart from the obvious comment that the Tories are not in Government I have read THEIR alternative strategy in the press. Whilst I personally do not altogether agree with it - the FACT IS one DOES exist.
And the disgraceful antics of the Labour Whips in yesterdays PBR debate ... I suppose that will be dismissed as light hearted fisticuffs... again supported by No 10 rather than being frowned on as completely unbefitting behaviour.
On the subject of sound bites .. some are really starting to sound tired and lacking in sincerity ...
- 'We shall do WHATEVER IT TAKES ..........
- 'We will DO EVERTHING IN OUR
POWER ...
Practically all bad news at present is prefaced by either the Prime Minister or the Chancellor with this phrase. I applaud the sentiment but frankly with the growing daily escalation of baleout needs ( Woolworths, MFI, the UK Car Industry, the Banks .etc) it is so disingenuous to always raise hopes with our debt levels already running out of control.
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272. flamepatricia
"Perhaps those complaining would prefer Andrew Marr back - son in law of a Labour Peer? Hmmmm."
Or Robert Peston, son of a Labour Peer,
or Adam Boulton, married to Bliars ex gatekeeper & factotum Angie Hunter.
Does anyone give us an impartial view?
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Pain relief during labour
I read the headline and clicked on the link with anticipation.
Could it be true, could there really be releif from the pain of this incompetance
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/751170.stm
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307. jonathan_cook
Great link...Definitely look like a March 09 election then......Gordo cannot possibly win after the new accounting rules are in place.
Unless of course... Ughhh.... Dreadful thought....He decides the country is in so much danger that elections must be ruled out for a few years (Mugabe style)
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#391 herb
Why do you think that's a partisan point?
I'll say it
The job of opposition (in Parliament) should be to debate and scrutinise and provide a voice to those who the governing party may not be representing, and not to oppose for oppositions sake.
The opposition also have a role to perform in providing an alternative vision and in behaving in a way to support that vision (e.g. not whinging about the pound falling 25% when they have no policies to prevent this happening; whinging about the level of borrowing which is as affordable as the 'golden inheritance' Labour inherited in 1997), rather than engaging in childish political bickering for short-term advantage.
Labour were, at times, guilty of opposing measures that were in the country's interests for political reasons when they were in opposition (e.g. internal markets in health, opposing efficiency and privatisation in government services to protect public sector jobs).
Similarly, the Conservatives are doing the same - e.g. saying the government should employ contractionary fiscal and monetary policy during recession, to help support their 'irresponsibility Brown', 'cupboard is bare' political narrative.
It doesn't change what is the right behaviour for opposition though does it?
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#393 obang
I was referring to the Cameron government of 2010-2015 rather than the current government.
They make a commitment they don't really believe in for political reasons (e.g. for arguments sake - not suggesting Cameron is silly enough to do this or indeed make any firm commitments whatsoever -committing to ensure that the Government always balances its budget in each financial year regardless of economic circumstances and long-term investment needs of the economy).
They are then stuck with a pledge that makes no sense at all (e.g. if there is a recession in 2013 and Cameron has to reduce spending to mitigate against the emergence of a deficit during recession).
Yes - it could be got around or quietly dropped (as Labour did with some of their pledges e.g. 40% max debt:GDP ceiling from 2009/10, a pledge that made sense in terms of getting the city less worried about a Labour government but is arbitary).
But there is a lot of political embarassment from that, which will mean a sub-optimal commitment made for short-term political gain could be stuck to
See e.g. Boris and his Routemaster obsession, which is very expensive (higher fares needed if the pledge to freeze the GLA council tax precept is stuck to), poor value for money (twice as many staff needed on buses, good buses having to be scrapped), will reduce the quality of service on some routes (less rapid boarding, more buses needed, more congestion), and increase CO2 emissions (lower capacity buses need more buses to maintain frequency, CO2 emissions will be higher) if he follows the pledge.
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Nick,
You ended up by wondering whether the Chancellor intended to go further on VAT.
What a waste of space.
It doesn't matter.
Fact is that the Chancellor has done some stuff.
And says he would do some other stuff, if he still has the role in a couple of years.
I really don't blame Darling for all this mess.
The guy who created the mess - quite deliberately, while saying the UK was in a constant growth period, which any decent econbomist would have said wasn't true - is now, God help us, the PM.
Gordon decided to increase tax rates on the poorest from 10p to 20p.
Is that in anyway compatible with a "Social agenda"?
Not in my book.
VAT at 20 or 25 percent?
Who cares.
The poorest people in society have been stuffed by a so-called socialist.
While their ex-leader has picked up GBP12 Million by talking to people about how wise he was to lead the UK into completely unjustified wars.
I quite like some social conscience, whatever party it emenates from.
This lot are a bunch of charlatans.
But Gordon shoved Mandy into the Lords.
So there is NO WAY we can get rid of him...
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#400
You mean, like, a government pledges to introduce detention without trial for up to 42 days, because they think it makes them look tougher than the Opposition, despite no-one actually involved in counter-terrorism believing it will do any good, and, because they can't get enough of their own MPs to vote for it, they drop it.
So, explain to me how the Opposition (the clue is in the title) is contributing to democracy by supporting the government?
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The Labour party claim that they care about us, yet they DOUBLED TAX ON THE POOREST AND STILL HAVENT SORTED IT OUT.
That says everything.
ELECTION NOW.
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Another abuse of office by Brown
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#402 obang
Yes - just like that example you gave of Labour cynically using the 42-day terrorist issue (which probably wouldn't make a tremendous amount of difference) to expose the Tories as soft on terror
The opposition would scrutinise the government, and make a decision on whether or not to support legislation on that basis.
Is it such a difficult concept to understand?
"End Punch and Judy politics". Yeah, right.
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It seems although the drip bag is empty
and the 6 outdated tory contributors on here are dried up and void of constructive
debate.
Nothing new in that, considering that their 20th century leadership is silent and radiates the do nothing syndrome.
Take the lipstick and powder politics else-where.....please.
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What next? Pink triangles? Yellow stars?
Somewhere out there, Jackboot Jacqui is laughing.
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400. balhamu wrote:
#393 obang
"I was referring to the Cameron government of 2010-2015 rather than the current government."
Wow..
So Cameron will be PM for a few years.
That means Brown gets the opportunity to take an Open University course in economics.
Good stuff. Unless he focuses on the Stalinist approach he seems to favour here.
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What fails to amaze me is that no one appears to be discussing the real root of the problem and that is the fact that the Government has allowed house prices to outstrip income on a huge scale.
This has resulted in high risk borrowing.
When I bought my house under the Tories I was allowed to borrow 95% at 3.5 times our joint income.
These policies have been dropped by the banks due to Prudent Gordon & Teflon Tony ignoring the house price problem and allowing the banks to become huge sales machines instead of being their to offer sound financial stability to customers at a price.
Until house prices are re-aligned with income, this problem will not be eradicated, it may go away for a while but it will not disappear.
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Just doesn't matter, does it?
This government has stuffed up the economy in such a big way that it will be our grandchildren who mop up the damage.
Is that what people voted for?
Where did all that "reforming of the public services" stuff go?
I quite like it when people working in some public capacity get decent salaries and pensions.
Don't like it when the people who actually create the money they depend on can't gain as much income or look forward to any sort of pension.
That's the Brown approach.
Stuff em. Great British example...
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derekbarker, CEH and co. are glove-puppet usernames, controlled by the greasy, nicotine-stained hand of Neu-Labour HQ. It's obvious by their "la la la I can't hear you, Gordon is great and so is the economy, you Tories are evil" approach, ie. denial of reality. Just like their masters they rely entirely on smoke and mirrors and the spreading of falsehoods.
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406:
What a particularly nasty piece of work you appear to be. My Sicilian friends would love to be acquainted with you.
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barker wrote:
'Take the lipstick and powder politics else-where.....please.'
We're going nowhere sunshine!
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#405
Just like NuLAb supports the SNP government in Holyrood?
Yeah right.
#406
Well that's a terrific contribution to the debate. Ranks right up there with the Labour Whips at yesterday's PBR debate.
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406:
The word 'do nothing' was invented by Gordon Brown and is therefore meaningless. The phrase is 'devoid of constructive ebate' not 'void of constructive debate'. Your phrase is also meaningless'
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To add to my point #100 on "opposition v scrutiny"
Picture the scene (it's an illustative scene so don't take it literally).
It's late 2009 and France has just been taken over in a coup by Bernard Laporte driven by public disquiet over the new Great Depression.
The French decide to launch attacks on the UK as a means of stimulating their ailing economy (e.g. hijacking shipments of consumer goods destined for the ports of Hull, Felixstowe and London, closing the Channel Tunnel, confiscating UK interests and locking up UK nationals in France). Signs are that they are preparing for war, with heightened spy activity, fly-overs of the UK by French planes and a massing of ships indicating a land invasion is imminent.
The Government brings a vote in Parliament that we should declare war on the French for this unprovoked agression.
You are David Cameron - what should you do?
a) Oppose the motion - you're the opposition, it's your job, to hell with what's in the countries interests or what you actually believe would be best
b) Hold a series of focus groups across the country to determine what people think and choose the course which holds the best potential of short-term political advantage in the 2010 election
c) Scrutinise the motion during debate (e.g. whether other options have been considered - assuming that the Government should even be considering other options - see VAT debate above) in the house, vote with the Government if indeed war is the best course of action, and continue constructive scrutiny as the war continues
d) Vote with the Government - don't bother with the scrutiny.
I'm arguing c) is the correct answer. You would, I assume, say a). Or would you accept that the job of opposition isn't to oppose blindly anything the Government does, but to scrutinise it?
#408 fairlyopen
Yes - maybe he can read the bit that advises fiscal and monetary contractions during recessions.
Or the bit that suggests that a Government should attempt to reduce National Debt to zero regardless of the investment needs (e.g. education, infrastructure and health) to drive future economic growth.
A Cameron government is an inevitability isn't it? Doesn't mean I like it or it's a good thing, but it's gonna happen.
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Sweeeeeet.
Looks like the Great British Public is starting wake up!
There is hope for Britain after all!
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Ref 362. Putting up a 'For Sale' sign at Dover says all for the state the country is in..
The Dock workers are currently on strike!
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derek barker sounds like a typical labour yob to me.
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#414
Why the snide comment? I agreed with your point that Labour cynically used 42-days for political reasons.
I am not familiar with Scottish politics - and I don't know if where Labour disagree is due to principle and different vision, and how much is politicking.
Conservative argument over whether there should be a fiscal stimulus or not is pure politicking.
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407. At 6:29pm on 27 Nov 2008, power_2_the_ppl wrote:
What next? Pink triangles? Yellow stars?
Somewhere out there, Jackboot Jacqui is laughing.
Well we know what the Shmit - sorry Smith person is like! The only thing is, so many poor workers are going round in these ghastly glow-colours, that nobody will know whether they are criminals or road sweepers. Probably we will identify the criminals as they will look healthier and better nourished than the impoverished workers.
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412. At 7:12pm on 27 Nov 2008, sicilian29 wrote:
406:
What a particularly nasty piece of work you appear to be. My Sicilian friends would love to be acquainted with you.
Unlike the Sicilian mafia, Nu Labour is all bla-bla-bla. A little Omertà would be a welcome change.
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Union in secret deal to save Labour from bankruptcy.
So it's not just Britain that Brown has destroyed then.
One word: SLEAZE.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#412
Don Sicilian and the tory ant hill mob, grow up.
Got any decent arguments to make?
Ciao 4 NOW bambino!
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Nick,
I reiterate my point which I now understand is being picked-up on 'he who pays the piper calls the tune'.
I think there must be more discussion about what conditions are being demanded by the lenders, namely China and Saudi Arabia, before they lend us money.
In the same way that we have kow towed to America for the last century, now we are to have new masters. Is there not a line in a somewhat famous tune 'Britons never will be slaves' or words to that effect. May I humbly suggest that we are soon to become slaves, or at least we are on the road to serfdom. Who are the new masters.
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389. balhamu
I do see your point and accept that my system is not perfect, there are some daft aspects to it.
However there is an over riding point in my mind.
Governments and especially ones elected by a landslide have an unstoppable urge to pass as much legislation as they possibly can. The oppositions job is to slow that process down with debate and at least bring about amendment. To make all the MPs think about the issues and to at least ensure they have read the various Acts, To pick fault, delay the process with debate and to cause a pause for thought at each stage of the legislation.
Nu Labour are a classic example of this, since they have been in power they had created over 3600 new criminal offences up to 2006, with 288 new offences in 2007 and 148 so far this year. This is bonkers.
The dangerous dogs act was a superb example of poor quality and speedy legislation (Tory I think) The Patriot Act (USA) was an even better example of what happens when the opposition stops opposing and just rolls over and agrees with the government.
The opposition should play devils advocate in all cases, you can agree with the terms of an Act say in general, i.e. FOI but still debate the terms and details and application.
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406 derekbarker wrote:
"It seems although the drip bag is empty
and the 6 outdated tory contributors on here are dried up and void of constructive
debate.
Nothing new in that, considering that their 20th century leadership is silent and radiates the do nothing syndrome.
Take the lipstick and powder politics else-where.....please."
Come one Derek.
Politics is about policies.
Government is about doing things as effectively and efficiently as possible.
I don't really care which label is "in power", but I really do care how they tax people and control the spending.
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Looks like we're being referred again phoenix! We're clearly on the right track!
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Union in secret deal to save Labour from bankruptcy.
So it's not just Britain that Brown has destroyed then.
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I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
`My name is Gordon Brown, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
Labour will fall.
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407. At 6:29pm on 27 Nov 2008, power_2_the_ppl wrote:
What next? Pink triangles? Yellow stars?
Somewhere out there, Jackboot Jacqui is laughing.
My comment #421, commenting on your comment 407 was censured. Mistakenly I spelt the person's name without the 'h' and I think they thought I was being insulting. If I was being insulting it was to a foreign nation and not the minister! I stand corrected, please forgive me, no, no, not Room 101!!!!
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Nick:
However, since it is a regressive tax - the poor spend a greater proportion of their income than the rich - it would not fit into Labour's "fairness" agenda.
All the evidence suggests that 'fairness' is as far from Labour's agenda as its possible to be.
Have you forgotten about the 10p tax debacle?
Millions of us haven't, that's for sure.
Thanks Labour.
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#427 carrots
Completely agree.
It's scrutiny we're looking for from the opposition. Voting against things and making political capital where the facts (or different views) merit it, but not "just for the sake of opposing it"
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#428
fairlyopenmind, I too consider that the universal position of taxation is a just and progressive form of government.
Funny, how we agree on so many standard points.
All those who took avantage of the better growth rate with the Icelandic banks probably thought they were being very efficient.
Come on, To advocate a position of collecting tax, then bank it for a raining day is a bit thin, with no over-all certainties that the monies are safe?
I agree that policies are the back of politics.
So would Cameron and co give the anti Euro sceptics a referendum to pull Britain out of Europe?
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431. power_to_the_ppl
And what did poor old Shelley ever do to you?
Wicked!
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#411- derekbarker, CEH and co. are glove-puppet usernames, controlled by the greasy, nicotine-stained hand of Neu-Labour HQ. It's obvious by their "la la la I can't hear you, Gordon is great and so is the economy, you Tories are evil" approach, ie. denial of reality. Just like their masters they rely entirely on smoke and mirrors and the spreading of falsehoods.
Yes I wonder if this little lot have an ultra cushy public sector job? They certainly represent the politics of envy with no proper reasoning to their arguements.
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re: 436, phoenix
Lol I meant to write 'apologies to Shelley' in my post, but I forgot... I was carried away with the comforting main point of the message.
Anyway: sorry Shelley. Your poetry is too wondrously sublime for that loathed, jowly, burnt-out gambling tyrant.
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And I thought grandantidote was occasionally rude and yobbish but Barker takes the biscuit. John Prescott pales into insignificance compared to this guy!
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Oh, dear, front bench tory MP Damian Green arrested, seems that the tories never learn?
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Discuss
My guess is maybe money changed hands (or that is the allegation made by the Home Office mole anyway).
Rumours a big story about the leaks from HMT is going to break soon too.
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416. 27 Nov 2008, balhamu wrote:
"To add to my point #100 on "opposition v scrutiny"
Picture the scene (it's an illustative scene so don't take it literally).
It's late 2009 and France has just been taken over in a coup by Bernard Laporte driven by public disquiet over the new Great Depression.
The French decide to launch attacks on the UK as a means of stimulating their ailing economy (e.g. hijacking shipments of consumer goods destined for the ports of Hull, Felixstowe and London, closing the Channel Tunnel, confiscating UK interests and locking up UK nationals in France). Signs are that they are preparing for war, with heightened spy activity, fly-overs of the UK by French planes and a massing of ships indicating a land invasion is imminent.
The Government brings a vote in Parliament that we should declare war on the French for this unprovoked agression.
You are David Cameron - what should you do?"
Get every soldier, fighter and bomber that hasn't been committed to a far away place , in illegal wars, and bomb the shit out of France and send real fighting soldiers in to get the buggers sorted out...
Bad choice, balhamu.
The French people regularly stuff up transport links with the UK (and lots of other things, actually).
It's because they still have a bit of revolution in the genes.
Odd thing is that the Brits in the old (chop off the head of a King) days, set the scene for revolting folks...
I'm still waiting for a really open commentary from a French government to explain why half of their nation decided that it was better to be a Nazi subsidiary than to fight.
By the way, my wife is French, from the North (Norman actually - so probably with links to many families here in the UK) and hasn't a clue why her previous fellow citizens would have buggered up people.
#408 fairlyopen
Yes - maybe he can read the bit that advises fiscal and monetary contractions during recessions.
Or the bit that suggests that a Government should attempt to reduce National Debt to zero regardless of the investment needs (e.g. education, infrastructure and health) to drive future economic growth.
A Cameron government is an inevitability isn't it? Doesn't mean I like it or it's a good thing, but it's gonna happen.
Goodness me.
Education is not about buildings.
You can learn stuff in a wooden shack.
You can be awarded high-achievement academic awards, regardless of the old or new building.
I'd opt for old shacks, with very well paid teachers who actually KNOW, understand and enjoy the subject they teach.
And with the back-up to say that yobs don't have any right to disrupt classes.
Yobs are really people who haven't been allowed to grow up in a normal way.