The Corfu story
For the latest update on this row, go to the bottom of this entry
It is a tale of our times - a tale of how a hugely rich financier Nat Rothschild, the son of the fourth Baron Rothschild, brought together the Tory shadow chancellor, the man who would return to British politics as Gordon Brown's new business secretary and a Russian billionaire at his holiday retreat on the Greek island of Corfu. Oh, yes, and lest I forget, the media magnate Rupert Murdoch joined them as he was staying near by.
Our story begins and ends with George Osborne. On returning from his hols he couldn't quite resist telling friends of the "poison" about Gordon Brown which, he alleged, Peter Mandelson had "dripped into the ear" of anyone listening. A story which moved from amusing gossip to the front pages after Mandelson's shock return to the cabinet.
Next came questions fuelled by the Tories about Peter Mandelson's relationship with Oleg Deripaska, the Russian whose billions come from controlling the world's largest aluminium producer. Hadn't he stayed on his boat? Osborne knew he had. Weren't they friends? Osborne knew that too. Wasn't this a conflict of interest given that, as EU Trade Commissioner, Mandelson had a role in setting tariffs for the aluminium which made Derpaska so rich?
Mandelson's first instinct was to refuse to answer questions about what he said was his private life. He knew all too well that the way the media can keep a story running is to publish a list of "unanswered questions". This approach did not, however, kill the story. Nor did the backing of the EU Commission which declared him not guilty of a breach of the rules. So far, no evidence has been produced that he broke any rules but there's little doubt that had he behaved this way as a cabinet minister he would have been in breach of the ministerial code which advises against perceived conflicts of interest.
When the questions continued, it's clear that Mr Mandelson's friend, Nat Rothschild, became angry with his old Oxford chum George Osborne for breaching the privacy of his summer party. It is this that has led to this morning's allegations, printed in the Times, that Osborne had visited the boat of the Russian billionaire with the Tory fundraiser, Andrew Feldman in order to "solicit a donation". What's more, Mr Rothschild alleges, Feldman later proposed that the donation be "channelled" through one of Mr Deripaska's British companies. Donations from overseas are, of course, illegal.
Both George Osborne and Andrew Feldman vehemently deny these allegations. The Tory party issued legal warnings to the Times last night which led to Nat Rothschild re-writing the letter in which he made his allegations. The Tories claim that this shows his version of events is unreliable. The Times insist that he was merely "clarifying" his allegations. My colleague Robert Peston revealed this morning that there are witnesses to Rothschild's story who are willing to appear in court if necessary.
Only three facts are undisputed here - the Tories did visit the boat, at a later stage a donation to the Tory party was discussed but no donation was, in fact, ultimately made. The rest, for now, is murky.
What can't be disputed is that this raises real questions about the judgement of the Conservative Party in pursuing allegations about Peter Mandelson's dealing with a man who they themselves had discussed money with.
There's an old saying in politics - if you get into the gutter you have to be prepared to get dirty.
PS. It's just been drawn to my attention that today is Peter Mandelson's birthday. You don't think that Nat Rothschild thought that this was the perfect present, do you?
UPDATE, 10:45AM: Sources close to Oleg Deripaska have told me that the Russian billionaire rejects the suggestion that he initiated conversations with senior Conservatives about making a donation to the party.
This comes in response to strenuous denials from the Conservative Party of allegations that they had "attempted to solicit a donation" from the billionaire.
The allegation was made by the financier Nat Rothschild who arranged a meeting between the shadow chancellor, George Osborne and the Tory fundraiser, Andrew Feldman with Mr Deripaska in Corfu last summer.
What is not disputed by those involved is that a meeting took place on the billionaire's yacht; that Nat Rothschild and Andrew Feldman discussed a possible donation to the Conservatives by Mr Deripaska in September and that, in fact, no donation was ever made. What is in dispute is who initiated the conversation about giving money to the Tories.
Sources close to Oleg Deripaska say that he has never donated to any British political party and never intends to.
UPDATE, 01:00PM: George Osborne's statement just now was very revealing.
On the one hand, he denied soliciting money from the Russian billionaire or talking about it with Oleg Deripaska or, of course, receiving any money. But, and it is a very big but, he did not deny my suggestion that he had discussed Mr Deripaska's possible donation with other people.
You would expect the shadow chancellor to avoid all conversations about how and whether to accept any donation. Mr Osborne has answered specific allegations made by Nat Rothschild but left unanswered big questions about his judgment.
UPDATE, 03:40PM: The BBC has learnt that the shadow chancellor, George Osborne, had a discussion with the financier Nat Rothschild during which the possibility of a donation from the Russian billionaire Oleg Deripaska was raised. The conversation took place at Mr Rothschild's villa before Mr Osborne visited the billionaire on his yacht. Other guests at the villa witnessed the conversation.
Earlier today Mr Osborne denied allegations by Mr Rothschild that he had solicited a donation from Mr Deripaska. However, he did not deny that he had been involved in conversations with others about a possible donation from the Russian billionaire or on his behalf from any of his British companies.
This is the transcript of the question I put to Mr Osborne and his replies:
ROBINSON: Mr Osborne, can you just clear this up? Were you at any stage involved in conversations about a donation with this Russian billionaire or indeed on his behalf from any of his British companies?
OSBORNE: Well, a very specific allegation has been made that we solicited a donation from Mr Deripaska and I want make it absolutely clear that we neither asked for money nor did we receive money.
ROBINSON: But I've asked you a general question about whether you were involved in conversation at any time about a donation from him or his companies?
OSBORNE: People make suggestions on behalf of other people about donations to the Conservative Party like all political parties but, we have very rigorous checks and we make it absolutely clear that donations have to be legal and I come back to this central point which is we neither solicited a donation to Mr Deripaska, we didn't ask for the money and we didn't receive any.
The shadow chancellor is expected to publish a detailed account of his dealings with Nat Rothschild and Oleg Deripaska later this afternoon.
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Nick, a nice broadcast by Robert I think you will agree, which you do right to bring in here.
This all deserves to boil up into a nice little scandal. What is impressive is the apparent existence of witnesses in the face of vehement tory denials. May it run and run and cheer us all up.
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Sounds like Peter Mandelson is getting his own back for the previous gossip story. No one comes out of that sort of thing with much credit.
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Nick
In previous contributions I have suggested that accusations made against you of pro Labour bias are unfounded.
You have made that position much more difficult to defend given today's contribution.
Do you really believe that the two scenarios are equivalent?
To quote your article:
"What can't be disputed is that this raises real questions about the judgement of the Conservative Party in pursuing allegations about Peter Mandelson's dealing with a man who they themselves had discussed money with."
Really? Is it a breach of Ministerial code to solicit donations?
I don't think that it is the Conservative Parties judgement that is in question.
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Nick you say
What can't be disputed is that this raises real questions about the judgement of the Conservative Party in pursuing allegations about Peter Mandelson's dealing with a man who they themselves had discussed money with.
I think you have lost all judgement yourself if you think this is the story...
You want to criticise the tories for speaking up - even though it may cause them problems?
If they had kept quiet (a conspiracy of silence) then you would have a story....
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Ref my previous comment, I had forgotten about Osbournes stirring ref Mandelson so perhaps I am wrong about Nat Goldsmith.
Do two wrongs make a right? I think not.
I would just make sure Osbourne is not invited again.
Indiscretion is not a great quality in a politician
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To quote Mr Balls-Cooper: "So what?" If any donations were illegally channelled to Tory coffers, where is the evidence?
The Mandelson spin machine, using his "old friend", is once again in overdrive feeding the gullible media. A transparent attempt to divert attention from his Lordship's own dubious background and dealings.
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The closing paragraph of Nathans letter should be taken very seriously.
He says that 'private parties' should remain just that - private.
He is quite right, private parties should remain private, and that is why politicians cannot be trusted to have 'private lives'.
If some one wants a private life, then they should choose a career that is compatible with that desire - and that is not politics.
Nathan has shot a warning shot over the bows of anyone who has attended a party of his, and may want to talk about it.
Anyone who has ever attended a private party of his is now compromised, and can't be trusted by the public.
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I wonder what David Cameron is thinking about all this?
If I were him I'd hope that it comes out true so he can relieve Osbourne of his duties as it will act as an example to others than sleaze and deceipt is not to be tolerated in his party. As a bonus it would remove what I consider the be the biggest electoral liability the conservatives have.
He just has too much of the Labour dodging about him for me to believe he doesn't have his own agenda.
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Ooops, the Ministry Of Truth are moderating me again! Must have struck a nerve for daring to suggest that Saint Mandelson might not be beyond repute.
Don't know why I'm surprised...
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This may be a good time to drop the under-performing Osbourne and replace him with the far more able William Hague.
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Dear Nick
Thanks for further evidence of why Peter Mandelson's new boss should be looking across the pond to the eye-watering success of Barack Obama's fundraising campaign.
Forget wealthy, high-profile, high-risk of adverse publicity donors. Forget state-funding of political parties. Bring on the small donations.
All Labour members and supporters will ask in return is a say in Labour policy-making as evidenced in the LabOUR Commission report (2007)
Peter Kenyon
http://petergkenyon.typepad.com/
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The blatant pro labour bias is showing again!
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There is an even older saying that 'If you lie down with dogs, you are going to get fleas'.
Why isn't anyone investigating Mandelson's role in all this and asking tough questions ?
Or don't you have the fearless chutzpah, drive and determination of Sophie Raworth ?
What's the matter ? Scared ?
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Dear Nick
So what ? They are all at it "freebies that is," just like MPs expenses, and the Master of the freebie is still at it Blair and family, there is no Honour amounst MPs, Meps arr the like they all think they are bullet proof, and above suspicion
"Little Jack Horner sat in the corner with his finger in the pie"?
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This only confirms in my mind what I have already said. That this has to be the worst parliament in living memory, if not longer.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, and the rich and powerful I consider now to be beyond redemption. They all have to go, Gordon Brown will soon have to call an election because the situation in parliament is getting beyond parody.
I have called in earlier posts for a government of national unity with George Osbourne as leader, does nobody understand irony any more.
Consider the pictures of Mr Mosly which caused so much problem, well can we revisit questions to the leader of the conservatives and get him to respond to questions of drug taking by senior members, even though it may well have happened before they were in high office. I demand a satisfactory response from somebody who might well lead our country if the electorate so choose.
This report opens up again a whole new can of worms. I want anaswers to cash for honours, about loans to political parties.
Could it be that the conservatives have a problem with regard to not pressing the government on this issue because they have their own skeletons in the cupboard.
For a democrat I am saddened by all this. It is up to a free press to expose these issues, and for people to reveal the truths which they are hiding. It is still like the problem with Iraq. The lack of truth in the decision to go to war has undermined our society, if kies are told to take us into a war where hundreds of thousands have been killed, then surely people will lie about lesser events.
Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and the politicians have sown the seeds for their destruction, through the democratic process. An election, and soon. This must end.
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a balanced reporting of the facts would have included on the amount of money this russian billionaire made from the tariff changes made by mandelson, in this "story" regardless of any cleared wrong doings.
the european union didnt find a conflict of interest with peter mandelson staying in the company of a russian billionaire, who's company benefitted (if reports are true) to the tune of £30 million euros, after the decisions taken by peter mandelson.
of course the european system and the house of lords, both have different rules on fundraising than the house of commons, peter mandelson has been under working under the rules of the EU and now the lords.
is it any coincidence that labour party donations are on the rise now mandelson is back in the fold of government?
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Somebody should tell young George that this is what happens when you try to play with the big boys.
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Just a few tidbits about the 'elite' for the proles.
Alastair Campell pointed out that these sorts of stories stay in the news for a maximum of twelve days or so before something else comes along to shift the headlines.
I doubt if this one will even last more than a couple of days.
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It hasn't taken long for Mandy - the master of spin, to get to work has it.
First there was the claims of his indiscretion and the blackening of Brown in a conversation to Osborne. This was then spun by him as a conversation about Osbournes' comments on Fox.
Then there were media reports about Mandelsons relationship with Oleg Deripaska and visits to the Russians yacht whilst waiving through the Russians business deals in Europe.
Low and behold, up pops one of Mandy's friends, Nathian Rothschild, to dish dirt on the tories involving the same yacht.
I note the Times reports that Rothschild discussed the intended letter to the Times with Mandy yesterday.
It is interesting that the Tories deny asking for a donation and, it appears that it is undisputed that they refused one when it was offered. It makes me wonder how much truth there is in the claim that they solicited a donation.
In the letter Rothschild ends by saying "Perhaps in future it would be better if all involved accepted the age-old adage that private parties are just that"
Is that not a warning to his 'friends' that they should keep quite about how he does his business?
Perhaps with the implicit threat of further 'stories'?
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Only a lightweight like George Osborne would try to play Peter Mandelson at his own game. Mandelson is not known as the Prince of Darkness for nothing. The only way to deal with his sort is with a dead straight bat.
What bothers me is that our country is facing a dire economic crisis and all our political leaders seem up to is snitch on each other like fourteen year olds.
Mandelson is a genius at matching the big picture to detail and then following through on that detail. He should stick to that and not try to teach the son of the manse to tell porkies.
As for Osbourne, well he should stop looking like he has a smell under his nose and resign to make way for a political heavyweight.
Anyway, what were all these people doing on a Russian billionaire's yacht? I doubt if they were engaged in improving the economy of the western world. Can't they take their holidays in Dear Old Blighty? They might find it is rather a nice place. Or don't they want to mix with us unwashed taxpayers?
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"He said, then she said, then he said..."
Boring.
These types of stories are the political equivalent of televisions soaps, the celebrity culture, personality rather than substance and the red-top appeals to our lowest instincts.
On a day when a weighty report is issued, analysing the changes in the distribution of wealth in our society, the BBC's senior political commentator spends his (and our) time on playground gossip.
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It appears from this that the stories about Mandelson dripping poison about Brown are true. All the rest is innuendo and speculation. Thanks for that Nick.
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Dear Nick
So what ? They are all at it "freebies that is," just like MPs expenses, and the Master of the freebie is still at it Blair and family, there is no Honour amounst MPs, Meps arr the like they all think they are bullet proof, and above suspicion
"Little Jack Horner sat in the corner with his finger in the pie"?
So is this where the world crisis in Finance really started, "Tarrifs and Loans" me thinks Mandelson ahs had a few.
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Dear Mr. Robinson,
I have been reading your blog for some months now and have generally found it to be insightful.
However, I am disturbed by the anti-Tory bias which has been becoming more and more evident in your blog. You are claiming that for Osborne to question Mandelson's business links is reprehensible; what is sickening here is that Mandelson and his cronies at the BBC are not denying such links but are saying that the Tories are not in a position to question him given that they themselves had discussed funding.
In other words, they're probably both as bad as each other, except that Mandelson has got away with this sort of thing so often and Osborne was clumsy in his approach. So why then do you come down on Mandelson's side and let him off whilst criticising the Tories?
If you wish to issue pro-Labour propaganda, please refrain from doing it under the BBC's banner.
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Nick, Peston is after your job as well, see his blog!
He must be stopped, the credit crunch has pushed him over the edge!
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The credit crunch and the return of Peter mandelson has left the tories in disaray.Maybe no more bust Gordon is right that it is not the time for any of the three novices(Cameron,Osbourne,Miliband).
Unfortunately by his own hubris busted flush Gordon is not the answer either.
If only Vince Cable had his own political party!!!!!!!!!!
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Mandelson, Campbell, and now a Rothschild, all spinning merrily because the Times run a good, and no doubt, true, story re Mandelson and Russki billionaire.
This will REALLY bite Nu Labour, Mandelson especially, and I have not been able to bet on him resigning AGAIN which when it happens will show up Gordy ClOWN for what he is - useless.
Kepp story going Nick and Mr Peston, u r doing a great service to UK and Tories.
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This is an important story, about Osbornes judgement. He has not come out of the banking bail out with any great glory, seemingly incapable of rising above party political opportunism. Now this. His attack on Mandelson was personal and cheap. A more serious politician would have kept his powder dry and waited to make a more substantial attack. It also brings into focus once more the question of foreign donations and the cloud of uncertainty that still hangs over Lord Ashcrofts donations to the Tory party.
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More pro-nulabour 'news' from the BBC. It's becoming tiresome now. Mandelson trying to get his own back is he?
Can you not deliver what the paying British public deserve? ie. unbiased news reporting.
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Trust is the key issue the Tories are trying to raise here. Surely they didn't feel that Mandleson was doing anything improper with Deripaska or Osborne would have been duty bound to raise it at the first instance. If Osborne felt an impropriety was occurring can we see a copy of his complaint to the relevant EU authority?
Their original story was that Mandy was spouting "poison" about GB. It was gossip, and fairly petty gossip that added nothing new to a years old story. Labour must now be relishing the response, and our national politicians (funded by us taxpayers) get to play “Na, Na, NA, Na-NA!” without all the aplomb of my four year old daughter in the playground.
Guess what Cameron and Co. If you win power you may just have to work in cabinet with people you don’t like (maybe even one or two who didn’t go to Eton or Oxbridge). Of course Hestletine never had a bad word to say about Thatcher…... It was a non story that has left egg on their faces.
Frankly I don't care who met who, or whether the Tories got their donation (although it is sad we grow more like the USA in terms of political funding every year). My main worry is whether we trust someone to run our economy who cannot be trusted by his "old Oxford chum" not to use a private party for political gain. If you’re not trusted by your friends why should you be trusted by the electorate?
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Nick,
Which part of the story about Mandelson and his apparent conflict of interest was 'getting down in the gutter' as you allege?
Was it the fact that Mandy dripped poison to Osborne re his best friend Brown? Or was it the genuine public interest in what the former EU Commissioner was getting up to in terms of policy decisions?
If it was the former, fine and dandy. However, there are several huge question marks over the judgement of Mandelson and as a consequence, Brown for bringing him back.
In my opinion, you are being misled if you want to focus upon the remnants of the fall out between Rothschild / Osborne, when there is a genuine political story to be pursued about Mandy getting back into government. Quite why you prefer the former to the latter is something you need to explain.
Let me repeat, an EU Commissioner meets rich individuals despite the apparent conflict of interest. That EU Commissioner is then welcomed back into government (and given a Title).
A shadow cabinet member meets one or more of the same individuals, and funding may have been discussed, but no donations were made.
One of the above two is in government or was in a position of power regarding policy when the meetings took place.
In the real world, which of the two should cause the biggest public outcry and ongoing investigation? The Minister who has resigned twice already through sleaze, or the shadow cabinet member? ....... Think about it for a moment. Reflect on the fact that you are employed by an organisation that is ostensibly impartial and unbiased.
Finished?
As far as I am concerned Nick, you are plumbing the depths that Mandelson and Campbell direct you towards without a moments consideration for your own credibility. Methinks it is time that we had a new representative for the BBC political news team, otherwise the organisation itself will fall into the kind of disrepute not seen since Campbell, Mandelson and Bliar were in power.
Last week you asked of the government why they lied to us by claiming that boom and bust had been ended by Brown. You didn't get an answer then, and now you seem to have given up the ghost on holding the government to account for anything. In point of fact, if you carry on in this particular vein, we would all be better off if you just gave up the ghost altogether.
All the best for now.
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Looks like Nick is trying to single-handedly save this Labour bunch of clowns.
Could it have occured to Nick that Rothschilds was stirring it up. I thought quality journalists were supposed to check stories before going off on one about them.
Shameful, pro Labour bias.
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Gosh 50 Grand.
So about as much as an MPs stationery claim then
Wake me up if you find some evidence.
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A weird scenario: Most people open their closets and see a row of suits, etc. Mandelson opening his wardrobe will see long rows of skeletons - other peoples!
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No donation, no story. We really have gone back to the early years of new Labour with this and you have fallen for it hook, line and sinker!
The only one with any power that could have been of any help to said oligarch was not the shadow chancellor, so well done on being distracted Nick.
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Interesting to see that on Guido Fawkes' blog they are saying that Tony Blair called Rothschild and lent on him to send the letter!
If you were ever in doubt over the BBC 's anti Tory bias you could find it in the fact that with everything else going on in the world it was the first item after the 8am news on the Today programme!
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#4, #13 and probably others by now.
Anyone who seems to suggest that BBC reporters might have a degree of bias should consider the difficult circumstances they work in. It can't be easy to work constantly under the shadow of Alistair Campbell's savaging of the BBC and the resulting Hutton enquiry - an episode that left the BBC critically damaged.
Please show a little understanding.
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"Only three facts are undisputed here" Absolute Rubbish. Perhaps you should have said "Only 3 facts which I can use to, once again, have a pop at the Tories are undisputed here".
Surely, the MAJOR UNDISPUTED FACT is that Mandy was yet again in a position which he should not have been. A position which would have seen him thrown out of the cabinet yet again had the timing been different.
Don't let the backing of the EU fool anyone, that's just like having twelve family members on a jury.
When will we see a return to politically BALANCED reporting ?
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So let me get this straight:
There are 'witnesses' who are prepared to go to court to prove they heard a shadow cabinet minister and his colleague trying to raise money for their party?
And what court in the land is going to waste public money listening to this 'argument'?
So I'm a judge asked to listen to 'hearsay' between a Russian businessman and some politicians.
Give me a break.
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DONT GET TAKEN IN EVERYBODY!
keep focusing on the real stories. This one has Alistair Campbell's fingerprints all over it.
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Great concept #16 TAG
"I have called in earlier posts for a government of national unity with George Osbourne as leader, does nobody understand irony any more."
Osborne as leader
Blair should make a comeback as Minister of Truth
Clegg as head of family planning with a specific brief to reduce promiscuity
Cameron should be Drug Czar
Mandelsonovitch as Ethics Czar
Brown as Scottish PM
Mr and Mrs Balls to head up a new "making MP's more popular" ministry
Hague as style guru
Redwood as Minister for Europe
Who have I missed?
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George Osborne is rapidly discovering how the 'Prince of Darkness' was so aptly titled! How quickly the focus has shifted to the Mandelson/Campbell axis. They are now the policy makers leaving Mr Brown yet again on the sidelines of history.
Mr Osborne should think again, and go back to setting his own party's agenda, and not be a puppet of Mandelsons machinations.
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22. TickhillBlogger "He said, then she said, then he said..."
"I danced with a man who danced with a girl who danced with the Prince of Wales."
Peter Mandelson?
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Mandelson's back then.
Nick Robinson again greasing the wheels of the Labour spin-machine while there are real stories out there,when's the peerage then Nick?
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Isn't it about time you sent your CV in to the Mirror, Nick?
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Yet another truly awful bit of journalism from the Labour partys man at the BBC.I would suggest that following your 10.45 am update that you should remove this 'Story' as it is obviously complete rubbish,no doubt passed on to Nick by one of his sources.I'm thinking Campbell,Draper or Mandy himself good to see the days of spin from the Labour party are over.
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# 28 ronreagan seems to have missed the point about all this - maybe the moniker says it all.
Little George Osbourne should have done some serious thinking before he started blabbermouthing all over London about what ent on during his hols. Now it's a case of the biter bit.
On another point, isn't it miraculous the way Rupert manages to be on a yacht somewhere close by whenever we have these tasty little dramas.
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Typical NuLAB spin from the BBC again
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Does anybody really believe that anything coming from a friend of Mandelson's can be anywhere near the truth. Why would anyone in Derpaska's position want to contribute to the Tory party. He already had a friend in the EU to swing contracts, (allegedly), now the same friend is part of the British government and if past history is anything to go by (allegedly) could probably get him a British passport if he needed one. This whole scenario smells of Rothschild attempting to compromise Osborne in an attempt to win favour with the lovely Peter. Why is it a scandal that George Osborne visited the boat, yet Mandelson was actually staying on the boat. What is Mandelson's relationship with the Russian, or is that a Politically Incorrect question that cannot be asked , is it acceptable for a cabinet minister to have a relationship with a foreign national from a country which can at the moment hardly be considered friendly? Is it possible that once again the BBC is slanting the truth away from real scandal because of fear of the government reaction.
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I haven't seen such a biased piece of prittle prattle in a long time. It's clear they're all as grubby and corrupt as each other - fawning over the rich and powerful. What makes the bias so evident is that Robinson and Peston unload both barrels at the same time, in the same place - just to give maximum impact to the non-story of the donation that never was.
Why not go back to the old fashioned job of the fourth estate which is to hold accountable those already in power rather than grubbing up tidbits on those aspiring to power?
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I find it quite amusing, Nick, that you're accused of Tory/Labour bias when this story paints the whole sorry lot of 'em as deeply unpleasant people (And I use the word 'people' in its loosest possible sense!)
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If any oligarch, Russian or otherwise, makes the offer, I will be happy to spend time next summer on his yacht off Corfu. I promise not to bring my fundraiser with me or to ask for money.
He would have to put up with my children, though!
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Hi Nick
How about a story about the huge debt or the forthcoming recession.
Sadly I'm beginning to think you are turning into a mouth piece for the Labour Party.
Try doing some proper reporting please.
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Isn't it bizarre that the day after the worst public borrowing figures since 1946 are announced, BBC journalists are pursuing tittle tattle against the Opposition.
Nick, I repeat my moderated out comment from yesterday - just when are you and your fellow BBC commentators going to start holding this present Government properly to account???????
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Well Mr. Robinson I have always felt you tried to be fair even though we know the BBC isnt, but today Im afraid your comments lead me to change this view.
Even if these allegations against G. Osborne are true so what? is it illegal to get donnations now. Mandelson is working his spin machine again and your all allowing this to happen. Its so obvious that Rothschild is a friend and has been told to peddle his poison, to take the heat off Mandelson. Its not a fair comparison what Mandelson has done is far more serious and you should point this out.
Why you would even give air time to this vile man (Mandelson) let alone the written word, whom the public dislike is totally beyond me.
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19
"I doubt if this one will even last more than a couple of days."
If the NuLab machine lets it. Politics as a spectator sport rarely gets better
than pointing an accusing finger at Mandelson only to find a mirror image pointing straight back. And they know it.
I'm off to look at the print media headlines. Proles? Yeah!
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It's just a shame Alistair Campbell's spin machine is getting nowhere with this story.
After all...George Osbourne is a 'pretty straight sort of guy'...Alistair. Why would he have done anything wrong.
Peter Mandelsson, however, is a twice disgraced cabinet minister who newlabour have brought back in desperation and is now surrounded by stories of Russian oligarchs and expensive flights, trips on gin palaces and the like. Far more interesting seeing how newlabour intend to diffuse that ticking time bomb.
Or will Lord Rumba of Rio accidentally drink a cup of polonium tea? Maybe he already has and that was the reason for his sudden kidney illness?
Maybe there will be 'witnesses' prepared to testify that they saw him drinking the tea.
Just call an election.
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I see the Tory Gestapo are back on here, moaning about any report which fails to portray the Conseratives in a good light. How anyone can seriosly dispute Nick's suggestion that Osbourne displayed poor judgement with his petty gossip about Mandelson is beyond me. Osbourne was on the boat too, hob-nobbing with the same people. Did he really think this wouldn't get out? Did he really believe he was, in any way, the equal of Mandelson? The innsinuations which Osbourne himself has tried to make (without stating anything of course, perhaps because there is no truth in his innsinuations) have well and truly come back to bite him in the bum.
And to think, this amatuer wants to be put in charge of our economy! He's an absolute laughing stock who's only achieved what he has thus far because of who he knows and where he went to school - not becuase of his irresistable talents. I personally wouldn't have him in charge of a School fete.
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If Cameron is serious about cleaning up Party funding, as he keeps assuring us, then these two must be sacked. Eery other party involved is now saying that a donation was discussed and that it was introduced by the two Tory officials. If this is illegal then the Police need to start taking statements.
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I think someone's got Nick Peston and Robert Robinson's scripts mixed up
GC
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Nick, this really is nonsense of the highest order. Is this slanted article to apologise to Labour for Sophie Raworth daring to mention Mandelson's dealings when she filled in for Marr? Did Mandelson not like his very dodgy conduct aired on the BBC?
Why not explore the simple fact that Mandelson was staying on the boat and enjoying the hospitality of a man with whom any form of association represented a direct conflict of interest with his position? Never mind the "he said" stuff; Mandelson simply should not have been there, but he was. There's your story - not the one Campbell and Mandelson and their BBC cohorts have dripped like honey into your ear.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Let's have state funding for political parties, topped up by individual donations capped at a very modest amount.
Otherwise we'll always have this sort of thing, won't we?
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#43
I am afraid you missed one important factor, that factor is:-
PROJECT GRIIFFIN.
What is this project, well as they would say lock and load.
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We've seen this all before......
Mandelson
Campbell
Spin
Dr Kelly's death
Dodgy Dossier = Iraqi war
NEW LABOUR ARE VILE TO THE CORE
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I smell campbell.
Cor Blimey Nick what have you and Pesser been promised to get this so called story.
Eureka, Nick has been offered the chance to witness Brown's assasination when Mandy plunges the knife in after Glenrothes.
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Nick just keep printing the truth thats all I ask whether its in favour of the Tories or Labour.
I am sick to death of these Tory bloggers who every time your story doesn't praise the Tories it means your biased against them, if you write a unhappy storey about ladour "it's well spotted Nick a very acurate and damning story, good reporting." they are pathetic, but for me all I want is the truth.
For the few people on here that keep asking that Osbourne must go, I agree he always was a lightweight, but to want to replace him with Hague would be a big mistake, does anybody remember when he was leader just before the GE he was on any program he could get on swearing that Tony Blair was going to take us into the euro it didn't cost him the election but it didn't do him any good and he was soon booted out.
With his wonderful financial brain it was he who costed the dome and justified its construction by convincing parliament that there would be 12.000 visitors a day it turned out there were only 6.000 a day, not very good recomendation for him to be chancellor,.On saying that I like Hague he's a excellent speaker and can sometimes bring a little humour to the house, I think that one day he will once again become leader of the conservatives, but not as shadow chancellor.
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I think that the Hundred or so blog accounts run by five or six people on here screaming about BBC Bias against the Tories, fail to take into account that what they are reading in their daily scandal rags should not be taken as examples of Fair and unbiased news reporting.
Taking the Daily Mail as your baseline standard for "unbiased" then yes, you are right, the BBC is Biased. whereas the Express, Torygraph, Star and Sun, would fit the baseline and be regarded as unbiased.
I, however, take the view that the BBC is the baseline and it is the Daily Mail and their ilk that have skewed the Bias. (don't mention Oswald Moseley, I mentioned him once but I think I got away with it)
Personally, I wouldn't wipe my backside with the Mail, as more C--P would come off the paper.
I once read Jonathan Cainer in the Daily Mail Horoscope section having a crack at Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. (and that's true, not sarcasm on my part)
As you are all rabid fans of unbiased reporting I look forward to reading your complaint letters in the "Mail" and the rest of the "Tory" press, together you could put an end to the Torification of the Press (but that's not really your aim , is it ?).
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Is this not really about Nat Rothchild wanting to protect his interests with this Russian billionaire and so he can use his yacht again?
Seems they are all as bad as each other and none can be trusted.
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#58 - not a chance.
Ever since the Dr David Kelly affair (God rest his soul) the BBC are scared stiff of upsetting HM Government.
The closest you'll get to the Beeb taking on the Govt is you and I being allowed to write on this blog, which is worth as much (probably better actually because the particular commentator for this blog is er, great in front of the camera during a close debate in the Commons but as dull as dishwater in print)
GC
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What a surprise. A Labour minister gets caught doing something dodgy and promptly a story comes out accusing the Tories of doing the same. And the BBC not only buys it hook, line and sinker, but seizes on the Conservative element and drops the far more serious Labour one.
Is this like the accusations against Chris Patten of high treason back in 1997 that Campbell admitted were 100% invented to get the heat off Bliar? Semper idem.
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re 59 :- susan croft
so you always thought nick robinson was fair until today, hmm, did you not comment yesterday on the very same "BBC Bias" platform. or was that some other susan croft using the same account.
tsk,tsk,tsk.
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Why do we have to put up with weak people such as the six or so main characters in this squalid little drama having any further part in our national life?
At what point does the white-coated party become a real party. There just has to be a way of finding better people than having to settle for the nastiest people who float to the top of the present system.
War's a dirty business, but politics!
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Are you the Official Opposition of the Opposition? Who should be questioning and scrutinising the ruling party in detail, not focusing all your efforts on the Tories - we are not in an election yet.
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Todays Daily Politics Show.
Andrew Neil 'This is Mandelson's revenge, isn't it?'
Nick Robinson 'Yes'.
Enough said.
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Nick
I'm sorry to say your reporting has reached an all time low in its bias. Do not be lead or be driven by Mandelson or Campbell in these new days. They filter pure rubbish to the media. It is a fact and you should know better.
Look at what Mandelson did for this man, not what is being said. This is where the facts are.
Rothschild has also admitted trying to instigate an illegal transaction - any chance of a police investigation?
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A "Scandal" story about a Labour party official is "resisted" by the BBC but as soon as it potentially involves a Conservative party member is involved it becomes headline news?
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Nat Goldsmith did say what is said or goes on at a private party should reman private.
Every person with an ounce of nouse knows that with the notable exception of George Osbourne.
A few moments of indiscretion about Mandy have seen the tables turned with a vengance.
The damage is now done and I suspect it is Georges reputation that is the one more damaged here.
He is a political lightweight perhaps now is the time for DC to recognise that and bring in someone who can swing the cudgel with considerably more effect.
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I wonder if anyone offered cash for a nice Lordship.
Labour might have done it before who is to say they didn't offer it again.
And there is only one Prince Of Darkness, Ozzy Osbourne. Mandleson is The Prince of Spin and stories.
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Who to believe Peter Mandelson and his cronies or George Osborne? Looks like a classic Labour sting that was set up but did not work and Brown and Mandelson may well regret this episode.
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Talk about hoist on your own petard. Osborne tries using dirty tricks against Mandelson and then gets exposed for typical Tory sleaze, fantastic.
Lets not forget Mandelson has been cleared of any wrongdoing by the EU. Lets see if Osborne actually dares to go to court.
All in all a good time for Labour.
Brown hailed as superman.
The poverty gap narrowing
AND tory sleaze back on the agenda.
Lets see where the polls are next week.
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If nobody wants the 50K then I suppose I better take it.
I'd hate to see it forever migrating around an accountant's books.
SSbanned,formerly
mindthegjc,and
gjc, Bourtie,
ellondb1986,
IDNKYN,
idonotknowyournamr.
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Wonderful. The Nu Tories are acting like headless chickens over this mini scandal - what will they do when something serious really happens? Cameron and Osborne are seriously lacking in political judgement.
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Funny how the dirt has started to fly in the public domain now that Mr Mandleson is back.
How desperate can this Prime Minister be to survice to condone these actions by a newly enobled minister that no one wants.
The last days of labour now are now clear for all to see.
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The country is collapsing and all we get is this politiking and drivel.
That's the real scandal.
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As nobody seems to have mentioned Nick Clegg I will. I think he should have dismissed this story as tittle tattle and old fashioned politics and moved straight on to what he was supposed to be selling.
I think we can see two things in this little story. One Mandelsons comments about Brown must have been said, why else would we have the rest of the meeting. Secondly the fishy fact in this is that the Tories asked for £50k. Why would you ask a billionaire for only £50k, if that is not tied to some reporting threshold then it is a silly, tiny number.
As to the BBC reporting of it this morning well it is as important a story as Obama's granny being poorly. Neither deserved airtime. (All the best to Obama and granny's everywhere but it isn't news.)
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It seems obvious that Nat Rothschild does not enjoy the publicity being given to his involvment in the "Oh not again" Mandelson Affair, he who held such a pivotal position in the EU (That cesspit of corruption). Hence this ploy to deflect the Media, with a letter which attempts to invove George Osborn. If I were you Nick I'd stick with the Mandelson story, it smells, and its Manelson who has the history and is the one with "Form".
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Nick
Are you going to name your source, since everyone else is naming everyone else?
I must admit if I was a European Commissioner I would not be spending nights on Russian oligarchs boats or cruising around the Caribbean at someone else's expense but that seems to be the way politics goes these days.
Wouldn't it be nice if all politicians didn't put enriching themselves at the top of their wish list
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This is a set-up, plain and simple.
2 Tories would publicly try to solicit a measly £50k from a man that they are using as evidence that Mandelson isn't up to the job for the 3rd time?
Or is a close friend of Mandy's leading a one-man smear crusade to besmirch their names for daring to implicate Lord Mandelson in dodgy dealings?
Everyone claims that Rothschild tried to set them up (except for Rothschild, of course). Why would Oleg do it? For £50k to the Tories, he risks global damage to his reputation and future contracts with this and any future government. There is one person for whom the risks make any sense: Rothschild is making up a sleaze story to hurt Osborne.
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Read all about it!
Tories refuse donation from Foreign businessman!
Now, why did Mandelson get those passports for the Hinduja Brothers?
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59 Susan Croft,You Say
"Even if these allegations against G. Osborne are true so what? is it illegal to get donnations now."
Yes, from foreign nationals, they are already getting massive donations from Lord Ashcroft who is a foreign national.
" Mandelson is working his spin machine again and your all allowing this to happen."
What has Mandelson done then thats sticking in your craw.
"Its so obvious that Rothschild is a friend and has been told to peddle his poison, to take the heat off Mandelson."
Strangely enough Osbourne is a friend of Mandelson and I hardly think that Mandelson has the authority to tell Rothschild what to say,Rothschild has said that if it hadn't been for Osbourne betraying a friend e.g. Mandelson to try to make political capital out of is relationship with the Russian multi millionair, he would have said nothing, Rothschid has declared that he and several witnesses are prepared to go before a committee to give evidence if nescessary,
" Its not a fair comparison what Mandelson has done is far more serious and you should point this out."
Enlighten the nation what has Mandelson been wrongly accused of this time.
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I think the fact that Lord Ashcroft is funding the Conservative Party in lots off odd and mysterious ways is far more interesting and worthy of investigation.
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Nick,
It seems that whatever 'sensational news' you present, it still evinces the same well worn arguments with both sides as divided as ever.
If the purpose of your post was to bring light, then clearly you have failed. Is that a reason to give up and go?
If you decide to hang on in there, perhaps you might like to try a different tack. In depth political analysis, and holding the paymasters to account. Now that would be interesting.
All the best.
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In the true traditions of Watergate well at least the movie version, I think it was the main story source, code named 'Deep Throat' that advised the News Paper reporters to 'Just follow the money'...... and you'll find what you're looking for. If it is not big business fat cat scandles the political equivlent is not always that far behind! But pray tell me how many end up as a guest of HM not so nice facilities ........I'll tell you NONE! is it any wonder the public perception of these so called elite is less than favourable....every day brings me closer and closer!
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@ 56, "He would have to put up with my children, though!"
I would strongly advise you not to let your children anywhere near the Rothschilds.
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I'm utterly bemused by the accusations of pro-Labour bias being thrown at you. I've found your articles balanced but weren't you the Chairman (or a similarly senior role) for the Young Conservatives in your youth, before taking the BBC vow of impartiality?
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Perhaps it is time for the boy George to don the sword of truth and the shield of justice, and fight for his honour.
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I beleive thee is a law against foreign donations but as always with our politicians they disregard any law they find inconvenient
Why would the tories expect a Russian Billionaire give them money if they were not prepared 2 offer something in return?
The tories are every bit as bent as Nu Labour and theryre not even in power yet
Just goes to show power is not the only thing that corrupts
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#79
The best thing on the Daily Politics was Andrew Neil giving an answer to the quiz, with the question not actually being asked. Surreal or what?
I must be living in an alternative universe.
We are now expected to believe that people go to private dinner parties where the conversations are what people apparently actually think about other people, only nobody is meant to know what these people actually think, we are spun to. Do these people have no principles.
This is bizarre, just like the dinner attended by the Presidential candidates were telling 'jokes' about each other. These people will have the nuclear button at their fingertips if elected, hey, just nuked Iran, that was funny wasn't it, could hardly stop laighing! Be afraid, very afraid, in westminster they can't hear you scream, all around the globe people are screamimg, stop this pain.
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If these people want rid of osborne (and they clearly do - big time!) then that is quite a recommendation to keep him!
Couldn't they corrupt him? is that why they are so bitter?
As the fog clears, I think today marks the start of the end for mandleson!
Nathan has indicated that dodgy things do go on at his private parties. The only question is who gets involved - osbourn and co seem to be in the clear...
So who was party to 'dodgy dealings'? remind me who else was there?
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If ever we needed absolute confirmation of the BBC as the mouthpiece of the labour spin machine, here it is. The beeb even boasted that it had kept out of the mandelson/Deripaska debate. Now that it may involve a tory, here is the Beeb doing its utmost to damage the party. You should be ashamed of yourselves. I hope the tories repeal the licence fee when they get into power.
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Spot the difference:
1) BBC (and others) report that George Osborne has quoted Mandelson "dripping poison about Brown" over a private dinner.
2) BBC (and others) smear Mandelson over a personal friendship with a Russian oligarch who Mandelson had powers to affect with his decisions in his Europe job.
BBC Blogger response - quite right for these to be reported, shows what a corrupt government we have, how evil Mandelson is, how much of a joke Gordon Brown is.
3) BBC (and others) report allegations substantiated by a Conservative-leaning person that George Osborne met the same Russian oligarch and asked him to donate to the Conservative Party (which is illegal) and discussed ways in which to bypass the law to allow the donation (see Ashcroft, Michael; Belize)
BBC Blogger response - BBC is showing left-wing bias by even reporting this. Conservative's attempting to solicit illegal donations from foreigners and associating with same Russian businessmen that Mandelson has been pilloried for is not a news story (well, agree in a way, it's not news that they would try and bend the law in this way).
What about this scenario?
Alistair Darling holidays in Monaco and gets talking (with Labour's chief fundraiser) with a wealthy Columbian businessman with links to the cocaine industry about how it would be good if he could donate money to the Labour Party (good for you too, nudge, nudge, wink, wink). Darling discusses ways of getting around the Electoral Commission rules on these things. William Hague was at Monaco at the same time (at the party too), and had dinner with Darling at which he moaned off-the-record to Darling about how much he dislikes David Cameron and how he would make a far better leader. Darling proceeds to divulge Hague's comments to the Daily Mail. Labour make political capital about reports that Hague was seen talking to this 'dodgy' Columbian at this party. The person who organised the party sees the double-standards in this, and shops Darling to the media for his discussion with the Columbian.
The BBC refuses to report the story.
What would be your response?
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The desparation amongst the many Tory Bloggers is really showing, trying to deflect attention back on to Mandelson or in fact ANYONE but Osbourne and the Tories.
Look who's making the allegation, Rothschild, as described by Peston "hardly a Labour supporter"
Look who's got the supporting witnesses who are prepared to go to Court.
If you were Osbourne and if you're so obviously being libelled, go to court. Its not as if you can't afford the legal fees.
And don't tell me the Times has now fallen uner the spell of the evil Labour Spin Machine, there really is no limit to their power!!
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85 NHH
Sorry mate, I didn't really want to get involved with a non story like this.
However will all that's going down at the moment. Is that really the best you've got?
All in all a good time for Labour.
Really? I say again REALLY?
Brown hailed as superman.
By Whom? Lois Mandleson? or Little Jimmy Campbell?
The poverty gap narrowing
Yes due to an on coming recession, where a large percentage of the populace may be out of work soon, homes being repossessed, now isn't that fantastic.
AND tory sleaze back on the agenda.
Right, I'd reinforce your Green house first before that one gets shouted from the rooftops. To thing the principle archtiects of Labours big drop in public favour, by dragging it into the mire are back in the driving seat. Can't see many people apart from those in the Ivory Puzzle Palace at Westminster being over the moon at that.
Lets see where the polls are next week.
That of course is the real thing isn't it, do you honestly belive the government can build a ladder out of the mess they are in?
They are still way down in the polls, and nothing has been resolved yet, we are on the brink or recession, still fighting to campaigns abroad.
Unemployment is going up, only a desperate fool would claim this is a major coup, or that this is the Governments finest hour.
We are not out of it, we are in it! Right up to our necks.
Give my regards to Alice and the White Rabbit when you see them.
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Re 72
Taking the Daily Mail as your baseline for unbiased .....
Actually the editor is apparently a mate of Gordon Brown. If you want the proof you should check the article by Alison Pearson that was published a couple of weeks or so ago. To say it was a sick-making fawning protrait of Brown is something of an understatement.
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This is most definitely the dirty work of Mandy... wherever he goes corruption follows.
He should be sent further than Brussels for his next posting... as he has taken such a shine to all things Russian, why not Siberia?
£50k is quite a measly sum for a major well funded political party to be trying to solicit from a self-interested billionaire.
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Dear oh dear. Rich friends have a spat about who said what at a party on a yacht. While this is all very unseemly and reflects rather poorly on both George Osbourne and Peter Mandelson in terms of the company they choose, I cannot see there is a story of national importance here.
There are far more serious issues to concentrate on in our present circumstances and I for one will be disappointed if BBC journalists spend too much time on all this nonsense.
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Its only a matter of days ago that it was proved a British PM took a bung for his party and then altered political policy and then lied about it
Where were you then Mr Robinson?
Mandelson takes holidays with a guy who he gives business to as EU Commisioner. The story is in the papers.
Where were you then Nick?
Since Osborne has called for a Serious Fraud Office enquiry into some of the stories broken by Peston during the financial crisis, doesn't he have a conflict of interest?
I see you make no mention of that either.
Is this just about Mandelson and Osborne. Or is it also about the BBC?
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Nick as I have said before over the last few weeks, I can smell the fear in the Tory posts its becoming overwhelming.
But I like it!
If I were in your shoes and receiving all this venom from the Tories on here I would be tempted to say OK if thats the way you want it I will give Labour a bit of a boost, but then your not me your a professional so I suppose you will take all this abuse and think to your self the truth is the truth and if you dont like it you can kiss my bum, and rightly so.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
So we are back in the murky world of sleaze. Do the Tories actually need 50 grand from a Russian oligarch? I don't think so. It's Labour who are skint. Half a million maybe.
But is this not all very odd? Mr. Mandelson's reputation for, shall we say, cutting corners to suit his purposes (passports? mortgages?) may not be justified, but mud sticks. Osborn has been roundly criticised for staying beyond the horizon during the financial crisis and who are the very people it is currently fashionable to hate? Yes that's right - multi-millionaire financiers and Russian oligarchs.
So suddenly you have a story which involves all these elements in one neat little package and it turns up where? That's right, The Times. Which belongs to who? That's right - Rupert Murdoch, who just happened to be . . . need I go on?
Personally, I have nothing against press barons, multimillionaires or oligarchs. I don't have anything more than a passing contempt for the present breed of politicians. I will even make allowances for the media on this occasion since it is, on the face of it, a good yarn. But I do get kind off p****ed off with their collective assumption that Joe Public was born yesterday.
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...........Curse my rubbish typing........
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106 finance hero, You say
"If ever we needed absolute confirmation of the BBC as the mouthpiece of the labour spin machine, here it is. The beeb even boasted that it had kept out of the mandelson/Deripaska debate. Now that it may involve a tory, here is the Beeb doing its utmost to damage the party. You should be ashamed of yourselves. I hope the tories repeal the licence fee when they get into power"
This post is typical Tory, if you dont write the stories the way we want never mind if there true or not we'll repeal the license fee, when we get into power well if there was ever a incentive for Nick to pump bad stories into the media to make sure that you dont get into power thats it.
Dont think you will be a hero for long.
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102#
LOL Brilliant, well said.
Over to you George? The Old Bailey awaits.
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Nick I find it an eye opener as to who is a friend of who. As I am outside the inner circle I find some of these connections strange. But perhaps I shouldn't those in power either political or financial seem to have more in common with each other than they do with the rest of us/common herd/plebs/great unwashed etc etc chose your own description. Can you tell me why do we keep on voting? Can it still be on the assumption that it changes anything?
I watch Peter Mandelson being elevated !! to the peerage, did I detect a smug look of satisfaction? Oh well on with the motely.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It is always interesting to see how people take out of stories like this exactly what matches their own prejudices.
Tories see this as a condemnation of New Labour and Mandelson.
Labour supporters see this as a sign that Tory sleaze has come back.
Lib dems seem to see it as proof that the other parties are corrupt and that urgent reform of party funding is needed.
I am sure the it will turn out to be shortlived and by next month we will wonder what all the fuss was about
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They are prepared to go to court, fine go to court. With this lot having so many principles. What bad manners all round, when manners are of such importance. You just cannot get people who have read the manual of how to behave on a yacht anymore. Rule 1 Keep your mouth shut on it and off it.
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Who to believe, Osborne of Mandelson? As all senior politicians are in hock to big business, we really shouldn’t be that surprised when they cosy up to one another. Isn’t it about time to wake up and smell the coffee?
There is a consensus that we are in the current financial mess because regulation of big business has been weak. Instead of the childishness of trying to apportion blame to one political party or another it would be more pertinent to ask why governments of all colours have been so reluctant. I’m sure it can’t have anything to do with political parties getting huge donations. Yeah, right.
As for the “news” of funding coming from overseas interests who pay no tax in UK, this has been happening for years and years, much of it through the Cayman Islands! Ask around the House of Lords if you don’t believe me. ;o)
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Typical Mandelson mud-slinging. Why did we bring that creepy guy back from Europe!
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Nathaniel Rothschild, now there's a trust worthy individual. Of course, given he's best friends with Lord Mandelson; you can't help but smell a whiff of intrigue.
Perhaps somebody could explain the relationship between Lord Mandelson and Oleg Deripaska for everybody.
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ZZZ
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Lord Mandelson said about doing business in certain countries.
I wonder if he would like to answer about the allegations of bribery in Saudi Arabia, the investigation which was dropped because of the national security.
Answers on a postcard to Project Griffin.
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Richards Manns
I agree. Its a set up. But it will work because the BBC will play Mandelson's game.
You said on the Daily Politics that this was Mandelson's revenge.
Why not put that in you national BBC report?
Why do we have to wait for Neil to ask the questions that matter - to get to the truth.
Thought that was your job too.
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Wow...no wonder I find Osborne sometimes very irritating.
There is nothing wrong to be rich as long as he or she can contribute as respectable politicians. As a matter of fact, rarely can the poor take centre stage in politics nowadays.
It is a shame, however, Osborne has an education background from Oxford--obviously he was not a diligent student or perhaps he chose the wrong subjects!
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Nick
Here we go again - stop dealing in tittle tattle - get back to your job.
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Nick,
How often do Ministers resign from office because of something they haven't done. According to some on this blog, it seems to have happened to Mandy.
No, sorry. He was guilty as charged or he was so incompetent that he could't even get his story straight. Seems a good enough reason to go last time, and the time before.
Having reread your story, Nick, you seem to be certain that money was discussed by Osborne et al. Where is your proof of this, or doesn't proof matter when you are making such accusations?
Are you the next Andrew Gilligan?
All the best
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106 - now there's a vote winner!
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Can I just add one little thing here? Waaay before the yacht and all the rest of it. When the story that Mandy and Georgie had met "by coincidence" in a little taverna first appeared - courtesy of yourself I think Nick, on Today - a nation, as one, shouted at the radio "COBBLERS!".
Why did you and your media chums present this obvious garbage to us, as fact? We are not fools Nick.
Please tell us - when you conspire with the politicans to present an arranged meeting as a coincindence, tell us why we'd believe you on anything else?
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Looks like today (Tuesday 21st Oct) is a slow or no news day. I must hand to Nick "prostrate" Robinson and the BBC on their ability to build a story from a non-story. It is really good. How about something more challenging? I just painted the walls of my bedroom. Can you please make a story from this event? Just let me know what additional information you need. Or feel free to make any/all assumptions you need to get it to the top slot on the 6 pm news.
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How can the government justify bringing back a twice-failed politician to be Minister fo Business. Surely that's like letting the fox have the keys to the hen house.
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#116 threnodio
You only mentioned it in passing, but I was on the understanding that Madelson was cleared of any wrong-doing over the passport thing (Hinduja brothers or something wasn't it). Blair caved into a media witchunt before Mandelson was exonerated.
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Test of Cameron's political 'bottle'.
This is a super opportunity to demote the underpowered Osborne to a more suitable position something like;- 'The Shadow Minister for falling foul of chasing Dirty Shadows'.
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I'm no fan of George Osbourne, but this article is so obviously Labour-biased it is unforgiveable.
Nick, the BBC is supposed to be fair and neutral, but just as soon as there is a hint of trouble for Mandelson, the BBC rides to the rescue.
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Nick
Your 1pm update could not be wider of the mark.
Osborne came over really, really well.
He answered the allegation against him - and refused to let the media spin up an irrelevant thread about every person who may or may not ever have been mentioned in the same conversation as donations.
The best interview by a tory for a long time.
He completely cut the legs out from under you -- however much you squeal you have nothing -- apart from some questions to answer over the way this whole thing has been handled by you, peston and the bbc in general.
The curse of brown meets the curse of mandleson -- something has to give.
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Ah the sharp spear of censorship. Apparently it is against the rules to talk ill of the Rothschilds.
I shall ammend my earlier post simply to say that I am inclined to disbelieve anything that comes from a Rothschild, but without giving any reason this time.
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Mr Robinson - you and Peston and the British Bias Corp are the pits, what a load of waffle, innuendo, and for all I know outright lies.. WHY did it take a woman to ask REAL questions from a Labour snout in trough despicable politician, is that the correct description???? - no make that corrupt, as proved by having to resign twice.
We know that Pestons father is Labour and so is Peston - how else did he get all the stories from the inside re banks etc - another Labour mouthpiece - and ALL this at a time when the UK is in desperate straits, we r BROKE and borrowing MORE - yet no REAL questions from u or Peston to Clown et al re this - you and your kind make me sick. No doubt some leftie willl delete this - who cares-come next election Labour is finished.
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Boring! Boring! Boring!
So the girls are having a bitch among themselves.
Somebody got drunk at a party and can't remember anything.
Somebody else saw an opportunity to get revenge.
It wouldn't even make it ti the script of Eastenders.
Give it a rest.
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Sounds like a total non-story to me. I have no brief for the Tories, and I have no doubt that they would engage in sleazy behaviour even on a Mandelson scale if they felt like it, but is there even a shred of evidence that they have done anything improper here? Doesn't sound like it to me. Sounds like Mandelson is causing trouble and the press have fallen for it.
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Nick
What has happened to you since ITN?
I held you up as someone who'd resist being leant on by the New Labour machine proven by your excellent reporting during the 2005 election, but over the past months who has been at you?
You sounded particulrly gleeful on the Today programme this morning regarding this story, and your summing up of David Cameron's speech as a throw back to Thatcher was frankly bizarre.
It's all such a shame
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It hasn't taken long for Mandy to be embroiled in controversy again has it? I wonder what odds I would get that he will be once again forced out of government by Christmas?
The part of this sorry story, which reflects badly on both parties, that has really made me laugh out loud is the assertion by the EU commission that Mandy did nothing wrong (even if that were true). The day that any of us come to rely on the most institutionally corrupt organisation in the western world for references of probity is the day we should all just give up.
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Boring! Boring! Boring!
So the girls are having a bitch among themselves.
Somebody got drunk at a party and can't remember anything.
Somebody else saw an opportunity to get revenge.
It wouldn't even make it to the script of Eastenders.
Give it a rest.
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108. Eatonrifle
Let me know if you want 2004-1997
It really is no trouble at all.
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This side of politics will always be at the forefront when lord mandelson is around.......he has a very selective memory on some dealings but can be admired at how he can survive....
Until people are jailed for these type of fraudulent dealings concerning funding of parties,campaigns etc etc then nothing is ever going to get better it will only get worse....
The party political system is holding our country back, with its all women lists,jobs for the university chums candidates lists its just a gravy train at the tax payers expense...It would be extremely nice to do away with it we need a modern day oliver cromwell to have a clean out methinks....bring on the revolution....
On a similar note when does the enquiry into the Hain oversight report ???? amazing how long something very simple can take when you try.....
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#132
Nick's report on the lunchtime news was qualified with 'I believe'.
Is this the equivalent of 'allegedly' used by Have I Got News For You?
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(MY COMMENTS IN CAPS)
109 HarryPagetFlashman wrote:
85 NHH
Sorry mate, I didn't really want to get involved with a non story like this.
..............................
BUT YOU REALLY FELT YOU HAD TO, OH WELL.
However will all that's going down at the moment. Is that really the best you've got?
All in all a good time for Labour.
Really? I say again REALLY?
Brown hailed as superman.
By Whom? Lois Mandleson? or Little Jimmy Campbell?
...............................
BY MOST FINANCIAL COMMENTATORS AND POLITICIANS ACROSS THE GLOBE. DO YOU NOT KEEP ABREAST OF CURRENT AFFAIRS?
The poverty gap narrowing
Yes due to an on coming recession, where a large percentage of the populace may be out of work soon, homes being repossessed, now isn't that fantastic.
NOPE, THIS IS AN INDEPENDENT REPORT WITH RESEARCH PREDATING THE CREDIT CRUNCH. LABOURS GOAL OF INCREASING EMPLOYMENT HAS LIFTED MANY OUT OF POVERTY. WE ARE THE ONLY RICH COUNTRY WHERE THE POVERTY GAP IS DECLINING.
AND tory sleaze back on the agenda.
Right, I'd reinforce your Green house first before that one gets shouted from the rooftops. To thing the principle archtiects of Labours big drop in public favour, by dragging it into the mire are back in the driving seat. Can't see many people apart from those in the Ivory Puzzle Palace at Westminster being over the moon at that.
TORY SLEAZE NEVER GOES AWAY. EVEN WHEN THEY ARE IN OPPOSITION
Lets see where the polls are next week.
That of course is the real thing isn't it, do you honestly belive the government can build a ladder out of the mess they are in?
They are still way down in the polls, and nothing has been resolved yet, we are on the brink or recession, still fighting to campaigns abroad.
THE FACT IS THE GAP IS NARROWING, UNUSUAL IN MID TERM WITH RECESSION LOOMING
Unemployment is going up, only a desperate fool would claim this is a major coup, or that this is the Governments finest hour.
We are not out of it, we are in it! Right up to our necks.
Give my regards to Alice and the White Rabbit when you see them.
IGNORE THE FACTS IF YOU WISH. I'LL GET BACK TO YOU WHEN LABOUR WIN THEIR FOURTH TERM
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@119 Eatonrifle wrote:
"102#
LOL Brilliant, well said.
Over to you George? The Old Bailey awaits."
---------------------------------------------
The Old Bailey? For NOT soliciting a donation from one of Mandy's mates?
For when it comes to honesty, would you really trust Mandy, the Rothschilds and a Russian Oligarch? Well, eaton probably would, we know his socialist impulses drive him to support the ultra-elite multi-billionaire globalist banking classes over the workers that they exploit, don't we? I mean, these are the class of ultra-posh capitalist that makes Cameron look like a lower-middle class oik by comparrison, we are talking the world's ultra-elite here.
Yes, eaton loves to suck up to those elitist few that have taken the world to the edge of a global financial depression, where millions of working people will lose their jobs and homes, but the elite are not losing anything personally. The Rothschilds will be quietly buying up everything dirt cheap whilst the markets are down. They will make a fortune out of the misfortune of the many. Just how eaton likes it I guess.
And now he believes what they say over Osbourne?
Only in new labour cuckoo land could refusing to seek a donation be a crime.
Eaton, you have surely lost the plot this time.
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What were they doing there? Did they leave a message at work "If I get any calls I'll be on a boat in Corfu." Smelly, but that is not unusual. What else is there?
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Did you hear Osborne? Someone who goes into a press briefing and simply repeats this awful mantra of "We didn't ask for money; we didn't receive any," to me, smacks of someone who doesn't want to be tripped up by the truth.
He failed to answer the question of "Did you discuss a donation by Deripaska with a third party." He merely carried on with the repitition. Are politicians so ludicrously aloof that they think that the public do not deserve honest and full answers?
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I wonder what the reaction of Nat Rothschild's shareholders is going to be?
I'm sure they will be delighted to know that the man who has delivered them a -44% return this year with Atticus has the time to spend writing letters to the Times.
A classic example of how newlabour 'light touch' (aka no touch) regulation has been an unmitigated disaster. This man is allowed to blow a substantial hole on his shareholders' fortunes and we, the public, are supposed to take him for a credible witness.
Get off you high horses, Mandy and Camby; it's going to be heavy lifting making anything out of this manufactured story.
And, please let's get on with this election before Gordon Brown straps on the cash after burners.
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Smacks of a plot to bury yet more disasterous economic news by spreading a non-story - hmm I wonder which (un-elected) Minister and his spin doctor friend could be behind this?
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Nick, re your 13:00 update, what this blog leaves me with more than anything is big questions about YOUR judgement. Why on Earth is this news? It's just poisonous, unproven and unprovable gossip, put about by a highly unpleasant man to serve the purposes of another highly unpleasant man. Frankly this 'story' makes me sick, not for its content about which I could not care two hoots, but in despair that this country's media will ever grow up.
In recent weeks the BBC's coverage of genuinely important world events has impressed me. Now I see we're back to the same old 'Hello with a licence fee'. Congratulations.
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With Peter Mandleson and Alistair Campbell back the change was almost instantaneous, and noticeable.
Good?? was the interviews on the train by Gordon Brown (okay..he needed the pre-requisite of becoming the saviour of the world) but the presentational touch of someone fitting in interviews as he travelled between momentous meetings was good.
Indifferent? Is this pretty inconsequential non-event of a non story in Corfu---As it's a bit like the local paper headline (Westminster Bugle being extremely parochial!!) " Not much of an accident, nobody really hurt!"
Bad?...Brown's Commons soundbite in which he accused the Tories of "Not backing" all the brilliant World saving stuff he has been doing, complete with the repition, repition, repition of the same phrase. It was over-egged, over played and over done---- but extremely reminiscent of the good old Tony Blair days---
The problem is two fold...the first is one should never go back anyway, not footballers nor spinmeisters; and the second is that time itself simply moves on and what worked once so well sometimes just won't work anymore.
Spinning and presentation works when the joins are not visible.... when it clunks a little it can be counterproductive.
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Nick you do bring out the worst in Tory supporters when you dare to criticise one of their own. It just goes to show how worried they are about losing the next election. You can feel the water trickling down their legs.
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I love it, I love it, I love it!
George Osborne decides to start wrestling in the gutter and what do you know? - he gets a bit of dirt on him! The return of Peter Mandelson just highlights how lightweight the Tory frontbench is.
Now will George Osborne be tempted to do a Jonathan Aiken? He wouldn't be that silly, would he? Oh, I hope so.
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The rebuttal to the letter can be easily read as answering questions that were not being asked. The British people do dislike evasive double talk so this now has a little way to go.
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this is sooooo boring....
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They must have been getting over-confident, despite the stage-managed humility of their conference: Tory sleaze is back before they've even been elected.
If a donation had taken place, it would have been an even bigger scandal.
But the fact that they seem to have been soliciting one - and failed - is just as big a story.
It indicates a lack of judgement and a supine attitude to the mega rich - showing up Tory rhetoric for what it is.
A private education can help you into Oxford, but it doesn't mean you have brains or common sense.
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154 NHH
Well they say you can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time.
But you buster it seems they can fool you whenever they like and anytime they want.
Good luck.
PS stop shouting.
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Nick,
I am surprised by your need to make something out of nothing.
Why do I say this.
You forget one thing. Just take a look who is back amongst the Labour Fold. Yes the dirty tricks brigade of Peter Mendelson and Alistair Campbell. Need I say anymore.
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re 110 dwwonthew
"the editor (of the daily mail) is apparently a mate of Gordon Brown. "
Are you living in some parallel universe ?
where Black is white, Up is Down, War is Peace, Biased is Unbiased... any of this sounding familiar ?
quick websurf and here are a few assorted quotes from Gordons bezzy mate and his paper :-
"Don't make me laugh, Gord. When did you ever listen to anyone?" 03/06/08
"Mr Brown does seem less demented than he did. Marginally... Tom Watson, who is the shape of a lunatic asylum heavy, was also handily placed a few yards behind the PM." 20/10/08
"as a consequence of Gordon Brown's destruction of our once-proud pensions industry," 07/10/08
"Hurrah for the Blackshirts" 1938 (sorry, don't know how that one got in there)
bezzy bezzy mates eh.
Yeah right, and Bush is a pacifist.
BTW, ITV must be Biased too, they are also carrying the Osbourne story and he ain't coming out looking good.
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Agree with 106 and so many others. Isn't it about time we had investigation into corruption and political bias at the BBC.
It is simply outrageous that such overtly selective reporting can take place from a public service broadcaster.
Nick you really should be ashamed of your abuse of power here.
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#137 - balhamu
Which is why I was very careful to say "may not be justified".
And - come to think of it - who cares? Do you know anyone with a company car who does not use the firm's petrol to drop the kids off at school? - or add an extra bottle of wine to the business lunch bill then take it home? It may not be 100 per cent kosher but it goes on at every level. It's called perks.
I find it very odd that people who massage their expenses, do just about anything to avoid avoid tax and consider it all part of life's rich pattern suddenly get hot under the collar when it's someone in the public arena? Trial by media, assumed guilty until proven guilty, assumed guilty when proven innocent, no smoke with out fire . . . for God's sake they are human!
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Hoist by his own petard.
How soon has a member of the (New) Tory party been outspun by the arch spinner of them all Peter Mandelson. That will certainly teach George Osborne to be more than extremely careful when dealing with a Master of the Dark Art and to use a long spoon when supping with the devil.
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#154. If Labour win a fourth term you'll have noone to get back to. Everyone with any sense and the ability to earn money in the private sector will have departed this sceptred isle.
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RJD @ 158
... "before Gordon Brown straps on the cash after burners" ...
Robin!
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Oh dear Osborne really was flapping under the questions from the press. He reminded me very much of Howard being interviewed by Paxman. If that was Darling refusing to answer direct questions regarding integrity this Blog would be full of demands for his resignation.
I know all in Westminster get excited about it but I think the money is even less of an issue now then I did earlier. It's the total lack of judgment that is more worrying.
He started a whispering campaign against Mandleson without thinking through the ramifications. Once Mandleson was back in Government he should have distanced himself from the comments. Instead he sat back and watched the issue of Deripaska meeting Mandleson raise the press hackles and allow them to raise prior events. All seemed to offer good short term gain. In addition to very poor manners he’s shown even worse political nous.
He's the architect of his own problems and Cameron needs to ask himself if he's up to the task.
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#173
We are making plans to leave and so are a lot of our taxpaying friends.
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why is it the only people who are interested in this is people like you nick...
do u really think the electorate cares lesss?
why didnt you put up a have your say last week when tony blair was caught misleading the commons about the bernie ecclestone affair?
why is you didnt say anything when peter mandelson was allowed a lordship to take up a post in the cabinet without even being voted in by the general public?
for god sake theres a credit crunch going on here and u r bothered that george osbourne asked someone for 50 grand to help his party?
funny isnt that obama barack yesterday announced he took 150million usd in donations...what do you say to that?
one day people like you will cease to exist and thankfully i can listen, read and watch the bbc without your ridiculous conspiracy theorys that appear to be created in the common room!
get real mate and start concentrating on the real issues.
why dont u tell everyone how absurd it is that this country is governed by a man who is not elected, has people in his goverment who are not elected and then tries to convince the people of england the credit crunch was not his fault but the banks even though he was the top financial man in the uk for the last 10 years!
what was he doing then? what was his job if he didnt know anything was going on?
i hope you print this nick and i hope you respond because quite frankly for the 100 odd pounds a year i pay to the bbc i expect journalists like yourself paid by my hard earnings to be a little bit more worldly then preaching on about some silly donation.
print me if you dare nick....
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Defense of Mandelsonovitch:
"Lets not forget Mandelson has been cleared of any wrongdoing by the EU."
Is this the same EU that sacked the Finance whistleblower and hasn't had its accounts signed since Adam was a lad?
Get real.
If Nick really wanted some big corruption stories he's in the wrong town - our lot are amateurs.
And the next time I hear a politician of any persuasion say "I'm in politics because I believe in public service and would like to make a contribution" I'll throw my shoe at the TV.
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Oh dear, Nick Robinson the labour spin doctor strikes again. Well, he might as well be. The only story here is how Mandelson never learns and doesn't even seem capable of behaving in a less than questionable way, but of course the BBC swallows the spin whole as usual.
I've stopped watching the BBC TV news now as the pro-Labour bias is so very obvious. Seems like the website is going to be off-limits to anyone other than labour supporters soon as well.
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This is turning out to be one heck of a party. I'm sure the only people who will be laughing though are the lawyers.
What strikes me is how foolish Mandy and the gang have been. Rule 1 of the spin doctor's handbook is not to let yourself become the story. Going on the attack with a counter claim against the Tories puts Mandy back in the spotlight and will only result in more muck being raked up. I reckon the Lord of Spin is losing his touch.
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/mandys-hello-sailor-moment.html
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Hey Hammer Let the Good Times Roll!!!
CBI: Confidence At 28-Year Low
UK Property Sales Down By A Half
Police Reveal Stabbed Boy's Name
Five Arrested Under Terror Laws
#85 All in all a good time for Labour.
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The question should not be what was Osbourne doing if, as was alleged he solicited a donation, the question should be, what are our elected officials doing partying with multi-billionaires where their presence could be construed as a conflict of interest.
Just why are Mandelson and Osbourne et al cosying up to Russian oligarchs and hedge fund owning scions of multi-billionaire Rothschild?
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After listening to Osborne's statement it's obvious he is being economical with the truth. He seems to deny that he asked for or received any contribution but cannot deny that there was a discussion about a contribution. Legally he is in the clear but this is not the smug moral path that David Cameron assures us is the new Tory approach.
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Fredalo writes:
''Is it a breach of Ministerial code to solicit donations?''
Yes, it is.
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The rest of the country can see through the utterly predictable and ridiculous spin and sleaze of Mandleson at al, it is a shame that a few die-hard delusionals who still think that the labour party stands for them, instead of the billionaire banking classes that they are throwing our hard earned money at by the truckfull, have not been able to break through their own ingrained cognitive dissonance to see the truth. They still blame Thatcher for all the things that Brown has done to ingraitiate himself to these same billioniares (at the expense of the rest of us)
It's all rather sad really.
Still I look forward to Labour still being wiped out at the next election. The latest PR scam of presenting Brown as some sort of superman has not worked. There was a temporary blip in the polls, but the latest poll in the Guardian shows the tories extending their lead to double figures again. It will not be long before that gap is back above 20% again.
This kind of mudslinging by labour worked brilliantly in the 1990s. But we have all experienced the labour lies too often to fall for them anymore.
Even IF there was any grain of truth in what Mandy's pal is saying, we are not going to believe it because this is coming from the same people who have lied repeatedly about almost everything else for the last 11 years.
Labour, the party that cried wolf!!!
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So Mandy and Osborne are both on holiday in the same place. Both are mates with Rothschild, and he invites them to another mate's yacht. Then it seems that Osborne invites the chief (?) fundraiser for the Conservatives to go with him. Has he given a reason for doing so? To make up a four at Bridge perhaps?
Imagine if this had been Blair asking Levy to join him on the Russian's yacht, and then trying to say that funding wasn't discussed at all. The tories on here would have had a field day, would they not?
Of course there is no evidence that anybody did anything wrong (yet). Perhaps the conspiracy theorists will remember that the next time they decide to build their castles in the air. But of course they won't.
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Does anyone have Inspector Yate's mobile phone number,as I've got something very important to tell him about a senior Conservative (shadow chancellor) and a rich Russian (donor)?
helpfully yours
Gary
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#127 : ''It may not be 100 per cent kosher but it goes on at every level. It's called perks.''
Really? It's called theft and corruption in my house!
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Ahhh, didn't we miss Mandelson! Funny how, even though he is never the wrong-doer, allegedly, trouble seems to follow "lord" mandelson wherever he goes.
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shelling @ 176
... "We are making plans to leave and so are a lot of our taxpaying friends" ...
Sounds like we're sunk then.
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Nick
Why don't you just quit your job and let mandelson/Campbell take over, it would be more neutral (politically).
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Interesting
140, 144 and 150 a full list of labour sleaze events from 2007, 06 and 05
All referred.
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Sad really this slavish copying of the US rightwingers. They have a set of rules
1) Always attack the messenger. Any article which does not shower praise on the right's object of affection must immediately be attacked with mulitple accusations of bias. By screaming bias we may be able to obscure the issue under discussion
2) Throw as much muck as possible at the enemy, keep repeating unfounded allegations, they may stick.
3) Call the enemy communists, refer to Stalin, some gullible members of the public may believe you.
4) Always always accuse the media of bias unless they are supporters of our party of choice.
Keep doing it though folks. At least you make us laugh.
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#154 Notting Hill
'Let's not forget Mandelson has been cleared of any wrongdoing by the EU?
Now this, in a nutshell, is newlabour policy-wonk upside down thinking.
The EU as an institution has yet to have its accounts signed off by the auditors yet you present the EU as a credible witness.
And Mandy's word is to be trusted? This man, the twice sacked overseer in chief of the light touch regulatory system that has enabled Nat Rothschild to destroy 44% of the NAV of the unregulated Atticus Capital?
No wonder Nat Rothschild invited him to Corfu; he's probably eager to see what other off balance sheet vehicles he can create with Lord Riumba's approval. he's already shuffled one chronically underperforming asset off his books - Deutsche Boerse.
You really expect your posts to be taken seriously? With this kind of ill informed reactionary polemic?
This is why an election is urgently nneded, now. Call it please as you are clearly within earshot of those who have that gift within their possession.
If they want to break their own golden rules the newlabour party should present this case to the electorate as it was never in any manifesto pledge to spend their way out of trouble; especially not after a long period of flat out strap on the after burners and blow the cash spendaholism.
Make the case. If Gordon Brown is going to spend, spend, spend and tax, tax, tax then it his duty to amek the case at an election. He has no mandate for this largesse and i for one would like to leave the country with good notice like posters 173 and 176.
Why don't you try running a country where all the private sector tax payers have disappeared.
Full 100% public sector Britain; magnificent idea, you're welcome to it - you'll be bankrup in six months.
Anyone know the IMF's number?
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ok - so we have desperate Labour suporters hoping that this story will make all the economic woes and looming disaster go away and never again be recalled by the voting public - and Tory supporters worried that labour supporters may get their wish!! Nice one Nick!!
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#190 sagamix
Very good.
My point is that lots of Brits are moving away and taking their money with them. Evenutally, Great Britain will be left with more people on pensions/benefits than working.
That's what happens when people feel they've been sh*t on from a great height.
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"No I didn't...
Yes you did...
No I didn't...
Well, Mandy said you did...
Mandy is a liar....
But the BBC said you did....
Said what?...
Said that you wanted money from a funny looking Russian man..
That's not true.....
Mandy is always making things up.....
Anyway, Oleg is Mandy's friend, not mine...
I don't know him..
Yes you do.....
You went to play on his yacht...
But he's still not my friend...
He's a friend of my friend....
But now your friend doesn't like you..
He's writing nasty things about you....
You shouldn't have said evil things about Mandy hating Gordon...
Mandy doesn't like me any more 'cos I said he wasn't friends with Gordon...
Everyone knows he wasn't friends with Gordon....
But now Gordon is calling him "Lord Mandy" they are best friends......
And that horrible Alastair has been spreading nasty stories about me...
It's not fair...
No-one likes me.....
Mandy gets sent home twice and still gets invited back to play....."
It's pathetic. Utterly pathetic. What the heck are leading politicians doing mixing with a guy like the Russian oligarch? As ever, Mandelson cannot resist people with money. Having been embarassed by the disclosure of his comments about Gordy and his contacts with the Russian he is up to his old games of spin.
Osbourne should know better. He should have kept his mouth firmly shut and let Mandy trip himself up. As sure as night follows day, Mandy will self destruct.
Instead of pursuing this political soap opera the BBC should be pursuing serious stories like who leaked the price sensitive information to Robert Peston which caused a rout in banking stocks. Or is that too much to ask?
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I usually feel Nick Robinson is far to pro Tory.
Judging by all the complaints of bias and attempts at deflection he must be about just right. A sincere well done.
A main story with ITV but with Sky it does not figure.
I would suggest that the bias, if any,lies in not reporting.
So called "clever" answers do not impress the public and most media types chases until they get an honest / believable answer.
I therefore find it strange that an intelligent person such as George Osborne thinks he can get away with daft answers.
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Given Nick's 1 pm update, where are we precisely?
1) All agree the Tories didn't get any money.
2) All agree the Tories have broken no laws
3) The two Tories involved say they didn't solicit / seek money - the unnamed other parties either dispute this or say "well it depends on what you mean by 'solicit""
4) The Tories don't actually need £50k, and even if they did, they don't seem to have any trouble getting it from UK citizens at the moment.
5) It seems unlikely that Feldman or Osbourne forgot what the law says about foreign donations when in the presence of a Labour mover-shaker.
6) Nick seems to be grasping rather strongly on the fact that by common consent there was a donation discussion between Feldman and Rothschild. A fact mentioned by the Tories' own press release, and the only dispute is about who suggested what and when. And this is all entirely archane since by common consent the putative paymaster doesn't do donations anyway.
Where's the beef? Nick says it puts Osbourne's judgement into question, but I am struggling to see what judgement he is referring to.
So, what exactly is the story? And who, precisely is Robinson / Peston talking to about it? And is he a newly promoted cabinet minister?
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Just goes to show you that the same people, the same cliques and the same money are behind both parties. There is something rotten in our system which needs to be purged.
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Nick
The link between this Russian and Lord Mandleson has been going for days without you even mentioning it. As soon as a link is established with the Tories, you make a big meal of it.
Is it any wonder your judgement is being questioned on this blog time after time?
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Nick
I'm afraid I have reluctantly to agree with the majority of posters here. As a supporter on neither Tories or Labour (and I'm ambivalent as to whether Osborne is up to the job) it does appear that you are going out of your way to present the Labour line.
NOT what we pay our licence fee for.
And contrast this relatively unimportant story with the clear evidence which emerged last week that Blair lied to Parliament over Bernie Eccestone and tobacco advertising. No post on that, I see.
In fact 8 of your last 10 posts have been sympathetic to the Labour line / casting doubt on the Tory line:
The Corfu story
Cameron's economic problem
The truce is over
Cameron's message
It's the real economy, stupid
The rebirth of Gordon Brown?
Back to the future again
At least Gordon's smiling
What's going on?
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Ok lets try this again.
35 pages of Nu Labour Sleaze
Whiter than white my derriere.
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#179 "I've stopped watching the BBC TV news now as the pro-Labour bias is so very obvious. Seems like the website is going to be off-limits to anyone other than labour supporters soon as well."
Same goes for me - the BBC television news is a joke. I watch Channel 4 news, since although Peter Snow is a complete leftie, the news reporting is rigorous and fair. Doesn't the BBC have the self awareness to realise how partial it has become and has been seen to become?
This bodice ripper about the rich banker, the Russian oligarch and a few politicians must rank as the non-story of the year - no money changed hands!
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To speedbank at 76
I believe I said Nick Robinson tried to be fair, thats him personally not the BBC until today when I was proved wrong. My comments yesterday were directed at the BBC in the hope we might get a change in reporting from at least one of its reporters.
Im not in any way trying to make political points I simply would like to see the full picture' which at present is not happening.
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Obviously the BTP were seeking money from a Russian oligarch. Quelle surprise.
What interests me, rather more than that, is the photo of said oligarch. Have you seen it? ... yuck. Why do RO's always seem to look like Benny from Crossroads?
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Ha ha the labour trolls haven't got a leg to stand on.
Osbourn responded to the criminal allegations against him - thats the end of the story unless somone has evidence to the contrary... eh? anyone?
Nick want to give it some more legs with "have donations ever even been discussed" - Osbourn refuses to be drawn, and explains why. So thats the end of that too.
Sounds like rothschild said that the russian wanted to make a donation (don't know if the russian actually knew anything about this), the tories said no.
I would guess they did say 'who', 'how much', 'is he a british citizen' and that kind of thing even if just to establish what was being proposed -- is that a 'discussion'? does it matter one way or the other? no.
George is in the clear, however the BBC seems to have a problem on their hands with both Nick Robinson and Robert Peston pushing a story based on nothing but spin.
Remind me what the BBC do to reporters who make serious allegations without checking their facts?
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Notting @ 193
... "Call the enemy communists, refer to Stalin, some gullible members of the public may believe you" ...
You're forgetting the big one - a reference to George Orwell's 1984.
An attack on the Left is not complete without that.
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After promising 'no more spin', Gordon Brown brings back (in order of appearance)
Alistair Campbell
Derek Draper
and (ta-dah!)
the newly ennobled Lord Mandy.
And we are supposed to believe a single word they say?
More to the point, Nick: Cui bono?
What is the real 'bad news' that is being buried under all this vacuous 'sound and fury'?
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shelling @ 196
... "My point is that lots of Brits are moving away and taking their money with them. Evenutally, Great Britain will be left with more people on pensions/benefits than working" ...
I'd actually like to see a fair bit of this. I think plenty of people out, people in makes for a more interesting and dynamic country. Especially if those coming in don't have much to start with and are motivated to work hard and contribute.
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The story is about integrity and judgement of a possible high ranking political leader at the very least.
Looking at the response to many reporters questions they have every right to ask more questions.
The character of political leaders is of the highest importance; it affects everything they do both out of and in office!
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Dear Nick
Your report and that of Robert Peston says more about both your journalistic ability than it does for the integrity of George Osborne. You are shamelessly biased in favour of Labour and it is disgraceful. When are BBC journalists ever going to understand the responsibility owed to the licence paying public like me that your reporting should be completely impartial, whatever your political affiliations. I think it is time someone took the BBC on in the Courts about breaching its Charter. It is not so long ago that the BBC wasted our money by sending some of its staff on an integrity course. I suggest that you, Robert and your Labour loving colleagues enrol on an impartiality and professionalism course as these are clearly words that all of you have great difficulty in understanding.
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Does anyone know what odds Paddy Power are offering on a George Osborne resignation before the weekend? Could be a good bet.....
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Is Notting Hill Hammer one A. Campbell? If not he seems remarkably well informed about the dodgy spinning tactics that have helped to so poison our society? Have you got a decent man's suicide on your conscience?
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Is this us back to Tory sleaze and attempts to cover it up? George Osborne failed to answer the questions which to him from the journalists. If he had been the chancellor he would have been pursued by the press and forced as Mandelson was to resign.
At best this is poor judgement by a senior Tory. Heaven help us if he should ever be in a position to make important decisions if this is an example of him in action.
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#202
Here's what is going on with eight out of the last ten posts being anti tory; the return of Madleson and Campbeel is what's going on.
So first call in the morning from climb-downing street is form dear Alistair to Nick saying' "there's a very interesting story about to break about this meeing in Corfu.."
So we're straight back to the Blair sleaze years and it will get much worse as more mud is thrown aorund in the hope that some will stick - note that's what they are accusing any tory of at the moment.
Seems obvious to me that the Notting Hill Hammer is in fact one MR Campbell himself.
Welcome to the site, Alistair; expect to get as good or better than you give.
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Why is this story being given so much coverage? The real reporting should be focusing on Rothschilds motives, but this warrants a dismissive birthday present for Mandelson cast off line.
This has Mandelsons fingerprints all over it, he needs a smokescreen to cover his own dubious conduct as EU Trade Commisioner. Throw some muck around and duck for cover, has been a hallmark of his political manouevring.
I'm very disappointed to see supposedly impartial political journalists falling hook line and sinker for his latest ploy.
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This has all the hallmarks of a smear campaign instigated by Mandelson (the king of Spin and Sleaze) and one of his friends.
Yet again the BBC is showing its bias and poor judgment by indulging in such activities.
Had a donation been made, it would have been illegal and it would have been right to expose it. But it hasn't.
NOTHING has
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It's nice to see this place turning back into the "Keep Gordon Brown in Power Blog" even if it is just for a moment. I miss those days as comment was often more interesting and the company more genial. And, yes. I know you can't take Nick for granted and there's a trace of irony about the title but I like it. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
I had no intent of steaming into this blog and dancing on the Tories misfortune in spite of the Tories celebrating topics unflattering to the government and their deeply partisan negativity. Yet, I just see the same Tories throwing accusations of bias and trying to put the blame on other people.
I've had concerns with the Tories lack of character and opaque finances for a while, and putting Osborne and Cameron under the spotlight is probably due. There's a sense of the phony and unexamined life about the Tories, and a little Socratian style self-examination might help shake out some of that unreality.
Get a grip, Cameron. [*]
* Folks may have to swap out "academic" and "lawyer" for "economics" and "politicians" but the underlying meaning should be clear enough.
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#210 sagamix
That's fine if they are willing to work.
But you have to ask yourself this. If hundreds of thousands of decent hardworking taxpayers are already leaving the country they were born in, and have paid taxes in for years because it's getting too expensive to live, something is very, very wrong.
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This has all the hallmarks of a smear campaign instigated by Mandelson (the king of Spin and Sleaze) and one of his friends.
Yet again the BBC is showing its bias and poor judgment by indulging in such activities.
Had a donation been made, it would have been illegal and it would have been right to expose it. But it hasn't.
NOTHING has happened apart from some very imprecise allegations made by the friend of someone who was kicked out of parliament for dishonesty.
Shame on you for running with this smear campaign!
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There are still some pretty serious unanswered questions here. Firstly, who did Osborne discuss the potential donation with and why as shadow chancellor was he involved in such activities with the party's chief fundraiser? Secondly, why were the Tories applying pressure on the BBC to run with the Mandelson story when there was no sense of wrongdoing involved?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
So no donation was received ,so no law or conduct rules were broken ?
One good thing from this (whatever it turns out to have been) that party funding is back on the agenda !
I still say the only source of donations should be the UK Voter, no companies, no Unions,no dinner's for the rich, or any other type of collective funding by a few.
I also would like a limit per voter to be about £15 pa which is tax deductible.
It is wrong that democracy can be bought by a few rich people and all the main three parties have been guilty of this in my personal view !
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How very entertaining. It is all reminiscent of 45 years ago, except no cabinet minister or call girls involved.
And the Russian is a billionaire not a spy. How the world has turned in those decades! I hope someone there enjoyed the idyllic setting. It just shows you the high life can be dangerous if the champagne flows as freely as mineral water.
Nat Rothschild must be upset if he has taken the trouble to write to the Times! He'd be advised be more selective when choosing guests for future parties.
.
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Nick -
Seeing as you and Robert "I collapsed the banks, me" Peston are now teaming up to form some sort of double-act, perhaps you could both run a consumer interest item on the news letting us members of the public know how we go about applying for a refund on our TV licence...
I'm quite happy for you clowns to spout your Labour-biased nonsense till the cows come home, but I'm disgusted that you seem to think it's acceptable to do so on the BBC, meaning the public is expected to pay for it. If I wanted to fund the Labour party's propaganda machine I'd contribute directly to the party, but funnily enough I don't, and am incensed at being forced to do so via a third party such as yourselves…
I was always under the assumption that the BBC was obliged to provide impartial comprehensive coverage of the NEWS. When were the terms of the BBC licence changed to allow you to get away with such a pathetic level of partisan tabloid journalism...?
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Only one persons judgment is in question here - GORDON BROWNS - for bringing mandleson back at all.
Mandleson will be gone soon - all that and a lordship just for take the heat of gordon for a couple of days.
Why is Rothschild in such a pannic? his fund has lost 40% this year (I beleive) -- did he promise other things to his backers that he couldn't deliver?
The curse of brown - even mandleson should have kept clear.
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What's the problem with you moderator types? Here's a second go. No, I don't think I'll bother. You are so PC and New Liebour biased that you don't publish anything that might step on the toes of your New Liebour spin doctor pals.
Wel, here's a final thought. Instead of being so pathetically PC how about spending the licence payers money on investigating who leaked the price sensitive information to Robert Peston which caused a collapse in bank shares!!!
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Labour know they are still in it with bad polls and the state of the country.
Mandy has turned the fan on to see how much sh1t will stick but this time people will see that its just a load of spin to try and help Brown become Mr popular.
Brown will only be popular if 1 he calls an election and 2 leaves never to be seen again.
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in Ecclesiasticus we read "he that touches pitch shall be defiled". I guess that was George Osborne's mistake.
And Nick Robinson's too - you too come out of this smeared with suspicion.
The message to George and Nick is clear - both touched the same barrel of pitch!
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These tories. They don't like it up 'em do they?
As someone else pointed out, if the name Alastair Darling was substituted for George Osborne in this story, the brave tory warriors would be screaming for his blood, mouths afroth, and probably claiming the BBC was biased for not providing more details.
There is a case to answer here. Osborne has not done that in a satisfactory manner. Simply saying "he said he didnt do it" is not enough.
Let's not forget there is a witness.
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#210
"Especially if those coming in dont have much to start and are motivated to work hard and contribute"
Sagamix, what do you think those queueing up to leave (myself included) have been doing all their lives? Sitting with their thumbs up their rears? I'm not so xenophobic to say that all those that are coming in are scroungers, that would be ridiculous - of course immigration has benefitted the nation over the centuries.
But when the Poles start disappearing in droves, something is up! All that will be left is the chav underclass existing on benefits and pensions whose votes have been bought with taxpayers cash, with one objective and that is keeping Labour in power. Nothing to do with the good of the nation, purely about power and avarice. Dont try and fool us otherwise.
Personally, the generation of politicians that we have now are all as bad as each other. None of them would know what public service meant if it bit them really hard on the butt. I really wouldnt be surprised if within 2 parliaments if the BNP hold the balance of power.
And I'm b*gg*red if I'm going to stay and around and watch that happen. I'd rather be somewhere else, starting with little, working hard and making a contribution. Why cant I do it in the nation in which I was born without being fleeced for it?
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Newlabour slaeze back in the agenda then.
No suprise now Lord Rumba of Rio is back.
Let's not forget this is the man who said "I have no objection to people getting filthy rich under newlabour"
So is that why he was at Nat Rothchild's in Corfu ... he's keen to impart the next way to get "filthy rich" under the newsleaze party.
After all, Nat's own 44% in one of his biggest investments; he needs a little help from his friends...
Call an election.
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#188 - michael_winston
Yes, agreed. My point is not a moral arguement. It is about the way in which something which, however dishonest, is sadly commonplace suddenly comes to monoplise the media.
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I like the Poles and Asians in my area. They are diligent and polite. If other people want to escape or traitor themselves it may help take some of the froth off the top. What remains of Britain will be worth working with if people can discover it in themselves.
My judgement is that Cameron et al would set entirely the wrong tone. The Tories are too bullish and inhumane, and Britain needs ordinary people to achieve and recover from the brutal capitalism they've lived through. People need to learn to live again.
I tend to think we're moving more to a time when more rational and reasonable people will have the upper hand. The Prime Minister is symbolic of that change and his mere presence as leader can help focus and invigorate people. It works for me.
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Just a point of order
Anyone who points a finger has 3 pointing back at themselves.
try it and see
I'm not called potkettle for no reason you know
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You'll notice most of these Tories won't actually discuss the issue, merely throw accusations of bias or in my case accuse me of being Alastair Campbell!
The real fact of the matter is you people thought you had labour on the ropes and you can sense that the incompetent Etonians are going to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
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Brown should tell Mandy he should be spend more time getting the country out of the mess its in thanks to Trust me Brown instead of spreading boring tittle tattle. The public are fed up with the spin that this Government throw at us everyday.
Get on with the job of running this country and stop thinking you are celebs who we all love.
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Surely the most apt political "old saying" to employ dictum to describe this Corfu yachting story is Russian and it goes;
People with dirty bottoms shouldn't climb trees!
This dubious event has obvious echoes of Michael Heseltine's visit to Venice collecting contributions for the Conservative Party - then a most unfortunate - (but convenient) stroke rules out Heseltine giving a timely account of the financial boatman-ship.
Fortunately Bag-man Heseltine recovers but he never did tell the story of how much cash he collected on behalf of the Tory Party.
Curiously the Polly Peck donation has never been returned.
Perhaps politicians should beware of " messing about in boats" .
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The BBC are getting really desperate with their save Gordon Brown campaign.
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I never liked the Mandelson/Campbell/etc clique of "media-shapers".
I didn't like the media who bought into all the garbbage, either.
It's a bit odd that, with the UK in economic free-fall, Nick would focus on the trivia. That's exactly what any government would prefer, if it deflects the focus from the startling lack of fiscal discipline it has presided over for a decade.
I'm amazed that Brown has had an easy ride over his "age of irresponsibility" remarks.
For goodness sake, he was the guy who re-shaped the regulation of financial organisations. The FSA has admitted they fell down on the job. Their scope and resourcing were designed by Brown.
Had Brown been responsible - and competent - he would have screwed down the gusher of credit. Did he heck!
He would have got the watchdog rottweillers digging around finance houses, to understand just what their senior management themselves truly understood about the foundations of their business. Did he heck!
How on earth can anyone believe that he can simply close the door on his history and open it with a "new Brown"? Who does he think he is? Dr Who?
Already, in the USA, senate committees have hauled in the failed bankers and given them a hard time. Already, there are legal actions being taken against bankers. Litigation based on possible fraud is being
prepared. (After all, if a bank says that it's in a strong enough position to keep taking depositors' money, when it must be aware of it's flakey fundamentals, that's fraud.)
What do we have here, so far? A handful of top bankers kicked out. No in-depth study of the failures of Brown's tool - the FSA. No investigation as to why the government failed to stop 120plus % mortgages, on many-times multiples of provable income. No enquiry as to why credit card companies were allowed to simply ratchet up credit limits every time a user reached an existing limit.
Why? Because credit has funded "growth" and generated tax-take.
Deliberately allowing private citizens to blunder into massive debt hardly qualifies as a projection of a "strong moral compass" in my book.
The man even "projected" ownership of the scheme to take equity in banks, which was created within the Treasury, with private bankers help.
It's a pity we have no independent oversight of government. Impeachment would be a suitable approach.
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To all the 'this is not a story' and BBC bashers out there, sorry, but it is, as proved by the fact that it is also a top story on the websites of ITN, Sky News and even the Daily Telegraph.
As for my opinion, it may well be that there was no offer or rule breaking. It does show though the complete naivety of George Osbourne though. I mean, WHY take along the Tories chief fundraiser? It also shows he does not respect the friendship and hospitality of those who thought he was their friend. Mr Rothschild wont be inviting him to any more parties I would wager.
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#222
"Secondly, why were the Tories applying pressure on the BBC to run with the Mandelson story when there was no sense of wrongdoing involved?"
I don't know about the "Pressure on the BBC" bit , but what is strange is during the WTO negotiation's earlier this year when Mr Mandelson was in charge of the EU part , the French tried to undermine his position at the 11th hour , then 3 or 4 months later he is recalled to Mr Browns Government ?
It's a shame we don't hear about what really happened there ?
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re 169
I would suggest you check out the Alison Pearson feature that appeared a couple of weeks or so ago.
182 and various others
Since when did "discuss" mean "ask for"?
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The fact that the Rothschild letter has had apparently to be redrafted after consulting with the Times's lawyers is not mentioned.
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#232 Fubar_Saunders
That's exactly how we feel!
We will be starting afresh with very little in the way of furniture or money, but it can't be as bad as waking up here every day, getting on the working treadmill and running as fast as we can until 5pm on Friday.
When I hear reports such as the 24 days holiday over Christmas given to our MP's it makes my blood boil! Can't wait to go.
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Amusing that many have screamed blue murder over the propriety or otherwise of the gossip in this case and the personalities and circumstances involved in its origins and transmission. This is politics.
Politically speaking it remains highly inconvenient for Osborne that Rothschild should have said what he said and when challenged repeated what he said. Conservative Central Office says (but apparently without the ability to argue the position) that Osborne denies what Rothschild says, yet there seems from the reporting to be no reason why Rothschild should unsay it or that his statement should not carry weight. Prospective ministers and their fundraisers have stepped onto yachts with as little care, but such sophisticated and experienced men must surely know that some tale or other will get back. It happens to be this one. . We have been here or in similar places before. George Osborne's position is surely untenable. It will be interesting to see just how unimpeachable he will seem to David Cameron in the coming days.
For now, it is a peach of a story. Let's not be surprised at the way it has been reported, which by all appearances has been well.
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I'm reminded of a story about Lyndon B Johnson. Probably apocryphal, but instructive nonetheless:
Seems he was engaged in a difficult campaign early in his career and told his campaign manager to spread a rumour that his opponent was in the habit of enjoying carnal knowledge with his own pigs.
"But you can't call him a pig ******! No-one will believe that!"
"Yes, but I want to get him in public, denying it!"
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#35
Continuing my wardrobe theme, I wondered if Lord Mandelson could become the Royal Master or Mistress of the Wardrobe. Only my great respect and affection for our Queen, prevents me from making this a serious suggestion, and I am sure a more suitable title will be dug up.
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RobinJD (and others),
What if the person caught with their metaphorical trousers down was a Labour politician?
Should the BBC not report for fear of right-wing bias? Would you be on here saying "ok, it looks dodgy. But nothing happened, no laws broken" etc etc.
Do you believe this about cash for honours?
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One thing comes out of all this, and that is the end of Georgie.
Couldn't stomach this person on the TV any longer.
He is finally on the way out!
Cameron is next!
Sleeeeeeaaaaaaze never left the Tory Party!
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shelling @ 220
... "If hundreds of thousands of decent hardworking taxpayers are already leaving the country they were born in, and have paid taxes in for years because it's getting too expensive to live, something is very, very wrong" ...
Yes, but what we're mainly talking about here is people of a certain age wanting to wind down a bit in somewhere a little warmer and more relaxed - and unless they are very wealthy, a place that's cheaper than the UK is required so that they can spin their money out for longer, you know, live more comfortably. Places like Florida and Australia spring to mind
That's all fine, all good, and I don't find it a cause to fret. If a load of people in mid career were upping sticks to go work full on in, say, Germany, France, New York City, Japan, that sort of thing - THAT would worry me. But that's not the case, is it?
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#236
"Anyone who points a finger has 3 pointing back at themselves."
Is that Zen Buddhism? Have you been learning at the feet of the Master, CEH?
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210. sagamix
Sounds like the ultimate plan in terms of equality and a superb way to reduce the gap between rich and poor.
If you get all the rich to leave, youll have a country full of poor people all earning the same salary, eating the same food and wearing the same clothes and living in the same sized houses.
Hey it sounds like........ Utopia.
Hope you dont mind if I watch your new order from overseas comrad.
Best of British to ya.
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The broken British economic fundamentals don't help. There's a culture of bullying bosses and insularity, and like the poor damaged fools that people are when they reach the top they repeat the abusive beahviour. It helps explain why so many British cause trouble when they're drunk.
People need to be respected and liked, and that means both bosses, workers, and other individuals and organisations would benefit from paying attention and being nice, and not being so impatient. Leadership and communication training, and more R&D and social liquidity would help.
There's plenty of books on these things but whatever change people want has to come from within. I think, that's a key part of the "Brown Plan". Some folks have got wound up over "authoritarianism" and "change" but they need to get over themselves. Once that's done they can discover their inner superstar: the real you.
(Psst. Someone tell Osborne. He needs some help.)
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Mandelson has a conflict of interest while he was the trade commissioner. Osborne has not. Nothing illegal took place. Can we focus back on Mandelson now?
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The involvement of Robert Peston in this affair needs explaining by the BBC.
Q1. Why is the BBC's business editor commenting on politics.
Q2. What is Robert Peston's association with Nat Rothschild?
Q3. Has Robert Peston been spinning on behalf of Peter Mandelson?
There needs to be a statement from the BBC on this matter.
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Last summer, for the first time ever, I took a five star holiday in Italy.
This hopefully meant that the standard of service would be outstanding.
It was and I was very glad of the experience because apart from the holiday itself, I think I gained an important insight.
A car was waiting for me at the airport in Southern Italy to take me to my hotel and although I am not particularly interested in cars, I noticed that it was a top-of-the-range Mercedes-Benz.
The vehicle moved off and I became aware that I seemed to be cocooned in this private space, it was very silent and smooth.
As we drove along, the driver gave a regal wave to a traffic policeman who saluted in turn.
I glanced out of the window and saw people standing by the road but I felt very disconnected from them, as if they were on another planet.
Suddenly I had an insight ... so this is what it must be like for THEM, the politicians and diplomats we see in the media being escorted into their important conferences.
This is part of the process by which they can so easily become detached from the people they supposedly serve.
Anyway, all too soon it was back to reality ... the lights had changed.
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231. The Notting Hill Hammer
Thankfully you still dont actually have to prove you didnt do something and the prosecution has the burden of providing that little inconvenience called evidence.
I know your dear leader is working very hard to eliminate this small encumbrance but he hasnt quite done it yet.
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It seems that the powers that be were getting scared that their tory puppets were going to wipe out their labour puppets, and so when the public see through the tory puppets, they would only have independent politicians left to vote for, thus removing all of the elit'e puppets from power. So they have got their BBC puppets to become an extended labour party political broadcast to redress the balance. After all the banking elites that actually control everything need those political puppets attacking each other with at least some degree of balance to distract the people from knowing who is really wrecking the planet and removing our freedoms and creating a prison planet for the rest of us.
The BBC are desperately trying to ride to labour's rescue as another poster noted, Nothing in Nick's blog about the many cock-ups and lies and broken promises by labour, but every attempt to attack the tories, even inventing sleaze out of the tories NOT getting a donation from the elite Russian oligarch.
It is SO blatant how these puppets of the globalist elite are playing people with their puppets in power.
That is why when the banks started to fail, who did all the people in public power rush to help? The same global elite puppet masters and NOT the people that vote for them.
It is so blindingly obvious that none of the mainstream parties are interested in helping the people who vote for them.
The ONLY reason I prefer the tory puppet, is because as a pragmatist, I know that it is incredibly unlikely that enough people will vote for independent candidates at the next election and it is imperitive that labour are destroyed completely at the next election. That being the case, the tories did sort out the economy after the last recession, and handed a golden legacy to labour, which has been completelt wasted by Brown and the tories are less stalinist than labour and have promised to scrap ID cards, various databases and to roll back the over intrusive police state.
IF the tories do not do that, then there may be civil war in this land before the next decade is out!
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245#
The fact that the Rothschild letter has had apparently to be redrafted after consulting with the Times's lawyers is not mentioned.
............................
Except....it is mentioned in Nick's article!
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What will it take to remove this Labour government? Perhaps we would all be better off just running the country ourselves. No politicians and certainly no biased journalists. Nick, there will come a time when somebody charismatic and probably very ignorant will create a new party in the UK and the public will flock to it in droves. It is in your interests and ours for you to report in an unbiased way. We are not immune from such an idea just because we are British. Please keep your reports fair for the benefit of our democracy. Remember, there is never any warning before an earthquake - the pressure grows unseen and then it explodes. People reading this may think me too dramatic but I have no other way of expressing my concerns. What will it take to wake people up? We must get rid of this government without delay. They have bankrupted our country and you are worried about a petty tit for tat political squabble? GET REAL!
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242
"To all the 'this is not a story' and BBC bashers out there, sorry, but it is, as proved by the fact that it is also a top story on the websites of ITN, Sky News and even the Daily Telegraph."
It's a story because the Times made it a small one and the BBC turned it into a big one. None of them was majoring on it until the BBC news this morning, then it came up the agenda for everyone...
The media feeds on itself like a lot of baby sharks in the womb. They all want to be the one left alive at the end.
Reminds me of the Not the Nine o'Clock News copper who, when reminded he'd arrested a man hundreds of times said "that proves it, he's a villain ,Serge".
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251. Onlywayup
Read 203 and report back tomorrow.
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I'M GLAD I PAID MY TV LICENCE.
I WOULDN'T MISS THIS FOR ANYTHING
CAN'T WAIT FOR:' MORE TIME WITH MY FAMILY.....'
PUT IT UP ANOTHER £100!
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232. Fubar_
Well said! Just hope this isn't mderated off,
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#242
From Mr Rothschild's letter:
'Mr Deripaska declined to make any donation. I mention this because it turns out that your obsession with Mr Mandelson is trivial in light of Mr Osborne’s actions. I also think it ill behoves all political parties to try and make capital at the expense of another in such circumstances.'
Was the host really a friend of George Osborne's?
In these few words he appears to set out his loyalties.
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Nick,
You are merely reinforcing our view that you are a New Labour stooge and the BBC is irredeemably biased against the Tories.
Every post you write these days is anti-Tory.
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Quote: "That's all fine, all good, and I don't find it a cause to fret. If a load of people in mid career were upping sticks to go work full on in, say, Germany, France, New York City, Japan, that sort of thing - THAT would worry me. But that's not the case, is it?"
-----------------------------------------
Actually that IS the case. I know quite a few people that have relocated to Spain, Texas and elsewhere to work and bring up their children as the UK is far too authoritarian and treats everyone as a potential criminal with the government prying into every tiny area of our lives looking for excuses to control, tax and fine us for any little thing.
Take for example the scaffolder in Liverpool that has been threatened with a 300 pound fine for taking the sandwich wrapping that surrounded his lunch home. He was told that he did not have a licence to dispose of industrial waste. IT WAS HIS SANDWHICH WRAPPER!!!!!
This is the mentality that many decent, law abiding, hard working people are being subjected to by this lunatic labour Government and this is why they are leaving in droves.
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Okay, so maybe this story is Nat's Piece?
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Ha ha ha! The smell of fear coming from the Tory Gestapo on this thread is tangible! Still let me clear a few of the points made by them.
It isn't Mandleson that's guilty of 'mud slinging', as claimed by the Tories on here - it's Osborne, running aroung the papers, telling tales about what Mandleson told him, and insinuating that he was corrupt because he knows this Russian guy. This has now rebounded back on him!
It IS illegal for a British political Party to take donations from an individual who's not on the British electoral roll - contrary to what some of the Tories on here have claimed.
far from being pro-Labour, the blog IS impartial (although I accept that's a concept that the control freaks on here can't comprehend). In fact, Nick used to work for the CONSERVATIVE Party.
Osborne has, at the very least, displayed terrible political judgement in this instance by making these sniday comments about Mandleson when anyone with any sense would have realised he was similarly open to criticism.
Lastly, it is notable that Osborne has pointedly refused to deny that a conversation regarding a donation took place. I think that speaks volumes - to anyone who hasn't got their head stuck up their bum.
PS: The Tories on here from Central Office - we know who you are, and you can make all the silly accusations you want, and spam the thread all you want with your multiple posts and multiple accounts. IT DOSENT CHANGE ANYTHING!!!!!
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@ 231, "Let's not forget there is a witness. "
Really? You missed out the words "terribly unreliable" before "witness"
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244 re 169
"Since when did "discuss" mean "ask for"?"
Indeed, but how hard can it be to say "politely but firmly decline"? It didn't mean that, then.
Innuendo, like Polyfilla, is good for filling in careless gaps, and making quite a good job of it at that. This political fact has caught George Osborne out quite badly.
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#237 Notting Hill
The tories on here appear to be giving this issue more than an airing - which is more than newlabour newsleaze can be said to be doing about Lord Rumba of Rio's denial that he had prior meetings with Oleg Deripaska.
As it has now been disclosed that Lord Rumba had several meetings with Mr Deripaska all during the period during which the EU decided to lower the tariffs on aluminium in mr Deripaska's favour - this seems worth a lively debate. Not least let's have the restaurant bills from the Moscow eatery where he is known to have entertained Lord Rumba to see just how generous Oleg decided to be with him. Let's have the receipts for the flights to Moscow taken by Lord Rumba and the justification for his ever so valuable time away from EU business. Let's have an enquiry into sleaze; this is what newlabour do really well - spend taxpayers' money on cover up.
You don't appear to reject the suggestion that you are Alsitair Campbell.. is this the same as George Osborne not denying he discussed Mr Deripaska's 'donations'?
I think we should be told, Alistair.
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Some posters really need a reality check...
This story cannot be excused by crying Mandy sleaze. He was the target not the source for the first 10 days or so. George Osborne was having a little fun at Mandy's expense about comments made at a private dinner and it's got out of hand. He failed to look to the future and how the story also had ramifications for him. He's been outmaneuvered and shown himself to have rather low moral standards by even divulging private discussions.
Lord knows Mandy has a lot to answer for, but he did not start this bandwagon rolling, Osborne did and now it's snowballing.
Rothschild is no more Labour than Thatcher and Tebbit..
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I am sure it is entirely coincidental that the BBC is saying there is a question mark about Osborne's judgement, just after Sophie Raworth's asking Mandelson about a question mark over his judgement on Sunday.
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Mandy dripped pure poison about Brown said Osborne...
Mandy also had many meeting with said Oligarch during his time as EU Commissioner and it could be interpreted as highly favourable for said Oligarch.
Now it would seem a friend with connections to Mandy and also Tony Blair writes a letter to the Times making serious allegations about what was said on his yacht.
A letter which has already been re-worded.
Re-worded? Mmmm... in case of legal action? Why have something to fear.
My, my, how the BBC trips over itself in the thrall of the old has-beens running Nearly New Labour.
Anyone would think the BBC was cheering for one side over the other.
Not scared of losing access to the corridors of power again Nick are we?
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Storm in a teacup.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
# 271
"far from being pro-Labour, the blog IS impartial"
Used to be, maybe. Not recently.
I refer you to my post at # 202
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My bet is that ultimately Osborne will have to resign over this. And the instigator? Cameron, who's realised in the last month that his Shadow Chancellor isn't up to the job and needs to get rid of him without sacking him.
The golden rule for any politician of any colour should be to never, ever, get involved with anything to do with Mandelson.
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Has anyone thought yet that this could back fire well and truly on the labour spin thugs.
If Osbourne goes Ken Clarke could become Shadow Chancellor.
Now that would be a formidable team.
Cameron and Clarke.
I might even consider voting Tory.
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The focus has moved, for the moment onto Tory politicians getting it wrong.
A while ago it was on Labour.
I find these comments regarding BBC bias rubbish.
It does no credit to the Torys and their supports to reappear as "nasty". This was one of the things I was hoping would change with a new leader and his stated aim of not being like this. All this spite appearing on these pages as folk attempt deflections away from something that is at best, an appalling error.
Sometimes discretion is the better part of valour.
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I've invested some time in learning Japanese and Japan's history and culture, and intend to leave when I hit some trigger points I've set. But, I also have a mentality of "If Mohammed can't go to the mountain, the mountain can come to Mohammed".
It seems Britain is heading more towards a 1950's style country without repeating the mistakes of yesterday. In that respect, Britain is becoming a little more like Japan. If that carries on I won't have to leave as I'll be living there with budging an inch.
I love it when a plan comes together. :-)
Heh.
I told I story to a police woman a few months ago: "When you are a child you think your parents know everything. When you are an adult you think they know nothing. When you mature you know you were right the first time". She thought it was funny.
Some folks have thrown around a few names and may have tuned out but I've learnt this lesson the hard way, and see the sense in many of the battle-tested stories and sayings from many different places and years ago. Both Osborne and Cameron seem to lack that wit.
Both China and Japan, through Shinto and Doaism, respectively, revere their ancestors. The reason is simple: those people made many of the mistakes and sweat blood. Their lessons and sacrifices are a legacy we should both respect and be grateful for.
I've always wondered what it was like to live during times such as, say, Rome during the reign of Ceasar but the time we're living in is no less history. And as people in the ancient past laid the foundations for globalisation and its benefits, perhaps, we are laying the foundations for when man goes to the stars.
Man, it's a great time to be alive, right here and right now. After all, how could we be anywhere else? I'm sure Osborne and Cameron are feeling some pain but life is the greatest teacher and it doesn't cost a dime. If they open their hearts and minds to this, perhaps, they'll have their "Clause 4" or Zen moment and get a similar clue.
Wow. I'm so HAPPY. Weeeeeee!
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#252 sagamix
The people I'm referring to are not of pensionable age - yet.
We are in our late forties/early fifties and three couples we know are very much younger than that (20's/30's) and are looking at emigrating to Australia/New Zealand.
We do not have much to look forward to. We have been prudent throughout our lives, put money into pensions and gone without a lot of luxuries like holidays to save for a rainy day, but our pensions have now been reduced considerably (one has been eaten up completely as a result of Mr Brown's raid a few years back) , and our savings are not returning anything like enough to allow us to even exist here when we retire in this country.
I spoke to a guy just this morning (in his mid-30's) who is just as hacked off with this country, and he is making plans to move his family to Austria. We are hardly people of a "certain age" who want to wind down a bit. We all work hard and just want a reasonable standard of living for the work we do. I do not want to work until I am 70 in order to pay out for MP's gold-plated pensions when I am struggling to make ends meet myself, and I do not expect to go to another country and live there without lifting a finger either. We will both have to work.
It all comes down to quality, not quantity and it matters not which party are in power. British taxpayers are shafted every which way in the UK and although other countries' tax rates are high, they don't even come close to ours. Even council tax is about a quarter of the price of ours in most EU countries.
If you still think that the people leaving the UK are all of retirement age, think again.
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I guess the Tories need the money to pay their researchers to post excuses, whinges and anti-Labour posts here. It's been quite amusing to read the moans coming from a Party that is not used to fair criticsm.
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204 CrowdedIsland
I have another complaint - BBC breakfast news is 80% drivel.
If you switch between GMTV and BBC in the morning (and out of desperation we do) there is little difference between the two!
BBC Breakfast has simpering idiots providing coverage of non-news stories and ridiculous 'advice' based twaddle such as, "how to keep warm during a credit crunch in the winter".
Why does the BBC do so little investigative journalism and spend our money doing 'non-news stories' or 'journalistic-opinion' pieces??
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#269 Well said - for the record I also know many people who've already left the sinking ship for pastures new because this country has descended into the kind of place where you wouldn't want to bring up your children any more - my new wife and I are seriously considering doing the same.
#271 Joe, I'd seriously see a doctor about that paranoia of yours ;)
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272#
@ 231, "Let's not forget there is a witness. "
Really? You missed out the words "terribly unreliable" before "witness"
................
Strange, no-one else knows who the witness is. Its not Mandelson. How do you know?
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BBC this, BBC that. Those throwing mud at the BBC are being ignorant and shallow. You have read the letter from Rothschild, the statement from Osbourne, and you know the background re Osbourne's earlier mud slinging at Mandy, and Mandy's less than glorious past. Can you not make up your own minds?
This is a blog, a BLOG! Its about opinions, angles, thoughts, reactions and debate. Have a difference of opinion thats fine, but respect that others can have one too, even if they work for the BBC.
As I stated earlier - other news channels are also running with this (apart from the Daily Mail surprise surprise). So don't use it as a shabby tool to slap the BBC with. And yes, they also are running their own 'comment' on it, as have Messers Robinson etc.
As I have said - the main thing about this story that strikes me is that Osbourne was naive to take the party fundraiser, and clearly has little respect for people who thought he was their friend. Nice bloke eh?!
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#280 badgercourage
Firstly, welcome to the blog! Nice to see so many new members from the right of the political spectrum registering today to add some more balance to all these New Labour types like RobinJD and Carrots that this blog is full of.
Secondly, the last few NR blog posts are pretty standard for the political reporting of the past couple of weeks in the media. Even the Evening Boris newspaper in London has been praising Brown's recent performance, going so far as to scoring him as winning the last few parliamentary debates with Cameron. People are beginning to ask questions of the Conservatives as they search for a unifying philosophy for their U-turns on regulation and bankers pay, adapt themselves to the changed times we find ourselves in and search for credible ways of blaming this largely global crisis on Brown.
Turn the clock back a bit further and you'll see commentary on Brown's insecurity as PM, Miliband trying to challenge the PM and more unchallenging views on the Conservatives.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It seems that there is a THIRD version of the letter.
Is this the one where Baa-baa Black Sheep get busted for a dodgy wool consignment in the ship's hold?
Tell it to Yates of the Yard Mandy....
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carrots @ 254
... "If you get all the rich to leave, you'll have a country full of poor people all earning the same salary, eating the same food and wearing the same clothes and living in the same sized houses" ...
We're not too far apart on this - if you substitute "better off" for "poor" and "better" for "the same" then I've got no problem agreeing with you.
Any case, British people, rich or otherwise, can't go that far (except to retire) because they can't communicate with foreigners. And if they've gone to retire, well then we won't be missing much wealth creation will we? One retiree out, one penniless, skilled and ambitious young immigrant in should work pretty well for us longer term, as regards the economy.
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Here's a good one, quote from Saint Mandy himself:
"In my experience of these things, parties which shout about dirty tricks and the like tend to do so because they fear a direct hit in some vulnerable part of their political anatomy."
"I suggest the BBC concentrates on the issues and helps the public to understand the policies and the choices that are at stake in the election rather than engages in the process politics, the trivialisation of the campaign."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4242659.stm
Obviously the rules don't apply if you're attacking the Tories though...
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#287 jonathan_cook
I hear what you say about the Beeb's coverage of mundane things. I want to know what's happening politically in the country when I switch on the TV in the morning. I dont need inane drivel about how to keep warm during the credit crunch.
I think it's called dumbing down.
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Rothschild, Murdoch, Osborne, Mandelson.
Who do these people think they are?
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As it would be illegal to accept a donation from an overseas resident, it seems very unlikely that the Tories would seek a donation from a Russian billionaire.
The BBC reports that Osbourne has denied the allegation, yet the BBC's headline "Osborne denies Russian cash claim" is obviously intended to indicate otherwise. Journalists often use the classic 'denial' to make accusations by innuendo, without actually offering any proof.
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Given your support for the Tory party and encouragement of pro-Tory posters in this blog the last line of your comment looks like a deliberate emotional "nudge". The "I might vote/join/donate" line is a little sales trick just to push people over the edge and comment themselves. All you need is a blue rosette and hovering pen to complete the image.
My take: The Tories have jumped the shark, and their lack of economic vision and humanity runs deeper than dragging a clapped out Ken Clarke back into action, who would overshadow Cameron in any case. The Tories are so deep into" go back to the drawing board and think again" territory it's not funny. They need to stop sniffing glue and get a clue.
Perhaps, the Bullingdon bully types don't get it but giving the Tories a reality check isn't a rereun of Boris Johnson's useless sociopathy. It's about them getting a straight head and giving someone a chance to their together. The Tories act like they want to destroy anyone not in their club but don't realise you can't own the world, and they're arrogant to assume they can.
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This discussion is certainly telling in that the Tory Party staff on here have been too used to getting an easy ride. It is also significant that rather than addressing the questions still unanswered by Boy George's involvement in this matter they only complain about the BBC and about Nick. Let's address the core issues here:
1) Is Osborne involved in sleaze? Personally I suspect not but we need answers and he is looking evasive.
2) Has he shown huge errors of judgement? Definately and certainly not the standard of a would-be Chancellor.
He's almost certainly finished but I'm not sure who they've got of sufficient quality. Hague?
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#287 jonathan,
Agree with you that breakfast TV is hardly investigative journalism. Never has been. If you want this over your cornflakes, there's always the Today programme on Radio 4.
Though I have to say the BBC Breakfast Team have in recent interviews been quite openly criticial of much of Government policy, and are quite successfully projecting the "We're all doomed" message, and have undoubtedly helped damp down any optimism (the "animal spirits" that Keynes suggested was so important in determining when recession was)
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# 291
Patronising!
a)
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Best you read Melanie Philips's blog on "The Spectator" which reveals that you have admitted the bias in your reporting of the Mandleson/Osborne saga. I can and do believe her.
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#294 sagamix
Actually, we can communicate with foreigners. I've spent the best part of 2 years learning the language of the country I intend to go to. Language classes are full up and my class is full of people with the same idea.
It's a pity that many people coming in to the UK don't do the same.
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Well, well, there is a THIRD version of Nat Rothschild's letter.
How many revisions did this letter go through?
I'm afraid that this story has Peter Mandelson's fingerprints all over it.
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# 291
Patronising bar steward!
I've been blogging here quite a while, as you could easily have checked.
How dare you suggest you know my politics!
Actually if you're really interested I'm way to the left of either Labour or Tories but have recently voted Lib Dem as I'm so disgusted with the way Labour has changed since Blair's takeover.
I stand by my analysis that in recent weeks Nick has supported the Labour line.
I'll ask the hard questions of both labour and Tories as I please and don't need you to tell me how to think, thank you very much.
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I take it that the BBC has just read Mr. Osborne's statement released at 5pm?
Oh dear, I fear that the BBC has over played its hand this time. My advice to the BBC from all this and the moral of the whole story is "be careful who you associate yourselves with".
Will the BBC now be hassling Mandy for his version of events?
I await Mr. Robinson's and Mr. Peston's contributions to this saga with great delight.
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Osborne is a lightweight when it comes to politics and it is obvious to most he is up to his neck in this. How foolish for the Tories to make allegations about Mandy knowing full well they were they were on the scene asking for money.
I remember someone saying most things in Government were 'cock-up' and not conspiracy. The Tories have taken this art to new heights - they aren't even in Government !!
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#291 - balhamu
There is nothing quite like a crisis in the capital markets for driving popular opinion in a leftist direction. Brown has his resurgence of popularity, Obahma's close run battle is beginning to look like a stroll in the park, I cannot recall a CDU German Chancellor looking more SDU and Sarkozy has suddenly morphed into a socialist.
Faced with what was beginning to look like a bit of a turning point, Osborn started to muck rake about Mandelson's private feelings over Brown and Labour have come out fighting. You can't really blame them. After all, of the other players, Rothschild must be privately sighing a big sigh of relief at the Brown Darling intervention and Murdoch must be wondering whether The Times coming out in favour of the Tories was a bit premature. After all, it is his paper that is running with this.
I think Labour have seen this as an opportunity to reingratiate themselves with the public and they have been ably assisted by Osborn opening mouth before engaging brain. Cameron will be seething.
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shelling @ 285
... "If you still think that the people leaving the UK are all of retirement age, think again" ...
No, people in their late forties, fifties who have some money saved up - that IS what I meant. Didn't mean really old people. My point is that it's (on the whole) NOT people in early or mid career who are going to up sticks and work full pelt in an equivalent country - France, Germany, Japan, you know what I mean. There's the language barrier in any event, which is difficult for us Brits.
Pensions have suffered with recent market falls, that's true, but on the other hand, our house price appreciation has allowed many people to realise the dream of a comfortable emigration, who otherwise couldn't have afforded it. Swings and roundabouts, I suppose.
Don't think there's anything particularly new in significant numbers of people fancying a new life abroad once they get past, say, forty years old, there's certainly loads of TV programmes on it! - although, come to think of it, the root cause has probably more been "we can cash in the house!" rather than "we hate Britain!" so I can see that the exodus might tail off a bit now that property prices are falling away.
I wish you all the best if you do take the plunge. I've lived in loads of different countries but this is still, for all its irritations, my favourite.
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The BBC really is becoming a joke with its political bias. I'm sick of my TV license money being used to subsidise what has become a Labour Party propaganda machine. The latest 'scoop' concerning George Osborne seems to be nothing more than tittle-tattle dressed up as major political scandal.
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Sorry badger, my apologies.
It seems you are a occassional poster here, and not someone who is brand new.
There are many on here today who are, which is why I thought you were part of that.
(And I say this before you point it out - at the moment it is only your "patronising" post that isn't waiting for moderation)
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#255:
Charles:
I wouldnt dispute the first part of your reply. Respect has to be earned on both sides, not demanded and it cannot be denied that there are significant numbers of managers and directors who are not of the standard that they should be.
Totally agree that the change has to come from within. Not impossible to do at an individual level, providing you've got the drive and the belief to do it. Christ, both my wife and I were born and raised on council estates, comprehensive education and we've got to where we are by getting out what we put in... she worked in Treasury in the city for 30 years and I spent 17 years in the forces and have reached consultancy at the age of 40 when I was ready for it, so I'm happy that the "if you're prepared to work for it, you'll reap the rewards" adage works. Compared to my two slightly more indulged sisters, who havent maybe had the same dynamic, despite having the same opportunities....
The thing is though Charles, is the rot from the top down, or from the bottom up? I can honestly see it from both sides but the one thing that it really demands is inspirational leadership. The adage of "you get the politicians you deserve" is probably equally accurate... they are just behaving in the way that we as a population are prepared to put up with. And, being as neutral as I can, I cant see either Brown, Milliband, Cameron, Osbourne or Clegg being the answer. Differing reasons maybe, but none of them are what the nation needs.
What worries me is that unless we start demanding more of our politicians and poking our fingers in their chests reminding them of who exactly they are accountable to, they will continue not to listen and they will pursue their own agendas. If they do that, I can honestly envisage a time where the likes of the BNP will say "But we'll listen..."; people will vote for them and as I said before... I dont want to be around to see the results of that.
Its the apathy, inertia, short-termism and "whats in it for me?" attitudes I find particularly dispiriting.
Thats why I wanted Guy Croft to run for office :-)
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lazarus @ 288
... "this country has descended into the kind of place where you wouldn't want to bring up your children any more" ...
It's sad to hear people saying this - you don't mean because our public sector debt is a little on the high side, do you? - it must be something about the vibe of the country, would that be right?
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#202 - great comment - I do hope Nick reads it. I am a Tory supporter, I make no bones about that, but discounting that, BBC pro-Labour bias is clear to see. Just why hasn't Nick had a blog about Blair and Bernie, or the story which started all this, Mandy and the Oligarch? I am getting very concerned about Nick - his blogs are unbalanced.
Come on Nick - you are supposed to be impartial - we the licence fee payers fund your salary - can you answer the accusations made in post 202?
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Think about it for a second folks....
If the Conservatives are not in dire financial straits why go to these lengths to get a donation, and £50,000 at that.
Would a shadow minister really propose an illegal deal knowing that others like Mandy were lurking in the shadows close at hand to find out?
I can see that now Campbell and Mandelson are back in charge at No 10 spin is back - and with a vengeance....
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nick is a funny one but I respect the colour of his politics. He knows what I mean.
He throws a titbit out into the pond and the pirhanas jump and fight over it.
What's this incident in the great scheme of things?
Never mind. If it gives people a chance to vent their spleen then it may be cathartic.
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If you think this is biased (I don't in itself but the BBC has gone very easy on Brown's handling of the economy) read Peston's offering. On any impartial reading it cannot be called objective. He doesn't think Rothschild would make an allegation lightly - this basically implies he is telling the truth and Osbourne is a liar.
Osbourne has been outwitted and out manouevred by Mandy - no surprise there. When you sup with the devil....
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badger @ 306
... "I'm way to the left of either Labour or Tories" ...
Hey, never mind all this bickering with balham - you seem to have "Clear Thinking Progressive" shot through you like a stick of rock.
Yeah!
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255, You have to understand that that person is not British and he is coming at it from another perspective.
eg: "you get the ......you deserve" etc.
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I don't know who Nat Rothschild is , tho I suspect he has alot of money and so do his friends.
So it is very worrying to hear him suggest that public figures should keep their meeting with them private ?
I have heard people saying the term "Masters of the Universe" before , are these people them ?
We need political party funding reform , that only allows a small (£15) contribution from each registered UK Voter only !
No Unions , No Company's !
To my current knowledge there was no laws or rules broken by Osborne or Mandelson ?
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Chuck E H..... @284 wrote:
I've invested some time in learning Japanese and Japan's history and culture, and intend to leave when I hit some trigger points I've set.
Firstly: Don't procrastinate - go! Bon voyage!
Secondly: Japan will suit you very well. I'm reminded of the Japanese saying: "The nail that stands out gets hammered down". No worries, I'm certain, that you will be outstanding in any meaningful way.
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Lying Labour weasels.
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#306 badger
Note my apology above (#312 - posted before you said this)
Reading through your previous posts, it's apparent you are a floating Lib Dem who would tactically vote Cameron to get rid of the PM (who you call 'Macavity Brown' in many of your posts). It's also apparent that you generally make quite intelligent contributions, so sorry for tarring you with the JD brush.
I think, though, you are reading too much into 'NR is part of the Labour spin-machine' argument of JD and other posters here.
If your swapped Osborne for Blair and Feldman for Levy there would still be a news story and it would still be reported, as the Mandelson comments and meeting was (causing hysterical ranting about corrupt Government and resignations from those decrying the current post, and complaints that the BBC shows left-wing bias by not calling for said resignations).
The issues NR has covered in the past couple of weeks are the issues that the right-wing media are also commenting on at the moment.
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"Same old Tories always cheating"
Fancy taking on Mandelson at spin, yep Osbourne is a novice in more ways than one.
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#314 sagamix
Yes, definitely more about the vibe rather than anything specific that the government have done, although I do place much of the blame on their 11 years of obsession with targets and statistics over common sense and rationality.
For the record my wife and I are 33, not in our late 40's or 50's with nest eggs, and we live what could be called a Labour "heartland". And of our circle of friends already 7 families have already upped sticks and left, citing similar reasons to that above. And sad to say, all 7's only regrets appear to be that they waited so long to do it.
Personally it's a hard choice as I love my country and my home town (grudging as that love can be) but whatever hope for the future there once was had been eroded steadily by insane scheme after insane scheme that costs more in tax and delivers less.
I know it's said that Labour only spend taxpayer money in their own constituencies but all they've built round here recently are speed bumps and bus lanes. And a college that had to be closed because the council forgot to save any money for actual teachers. Unfortunately though, Labour voting is pretty much genetic for many people in the area because of tradition and a high unemployment/benefits ratio. Last time I went to vote there was a guy there with his teenage son who he'd obviously brought along to vote for the first time and was showing him what to do - by which he was explaining "You put an X next to Labour there, and another one next to Labour there". With that kind of support, they don't need to buy our votes, and when the Tories are in, they know there's no point either.
Regardless, I just feel change is the only possible way things can improve, as they surely can't get much worse!
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sagamix @294:
The 'grey pound' is an important part of the economy. The retired consume and spend a lot (and thus pay all manner of taxes).
You should know this ;-)
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# 315
I'm NOT a Tory supporter (see my #306).
I'm just fed up of the poor quality of business and political reporting generally on the Beeb in recent months, and Robert Peston and Nick Robinson in particular.
I very much doubt if Nick will even read these comments let alone consider whether they are accurate. He hardly ever responds.
I suppose it just gives us all an outlet to let off steam, and I'm as bad as the rest of the people who post here...
I'm sorely tempted to change my homepage to the BBC Sport website rather than the News page. (At least the Sport pages have some good news about the Aussies getting marmalised by India at cricket.)
I certainly now go to Channel 4 News rather than the BBC Six or 10 o'Clock news for dispassionate and accurate reporting.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I guess George Osborne broke a gentlemen's agreement and that Rothschild's reaction is next best to pistols at dawn!!!!!!!!! At the very least - Osborne's judgement was at fault.........Having said that - this is all rather childish and labouring it doesn't reflect well on the British press or its commentators either.
I'm bored.........Enough already........!!!!!!!!!!!
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This whole thing has Mandelson all over it. I mean all this agro for a poxy 50 grand ? I doubt it. I mean 50k would be an insult to such men of fabulous wealth - I'm sure they keep that much in their codpiece.
Well he is back alright - at least he has seen of Milliband...
Anyone got any Garlic ?
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Nick, how would you feel if I were to donate some money to the RSPCA?
Presuming that you make a response, which I am certain you will because you are such a well-mannered and polite fellow, and regardless of what response you make, you have now participated in a conversation about the possibility of me donating money to the RSPCA.
This story really is a nonstarter, and nonsense to boot! Please encourage your organisation to cease wasting time on such conjecture.
To quote Rothschild's letter, "I also think it ill behoves all political parties to try and make capital at the expense of another in such circumstances". What does, "to try *and* make capital" actually mean? Does Mr Rothschild honestly believe that it is inappropriate for any political party to make any endeavours at all? Even with the public’s present political apathy, surely that is no reason for all parties to concede defeat?
How can you honestly give credence to an accusation that is not even grammatically accurate?
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crowded @ 315
... "#202 - great comment - I do hope Nick reads it" ...
Sadly, I think the chances of NR getting down to comment 202 on any of his blogs is about the same as the chances of the BTP introducing policies to make Britain a better place.
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1. This story is being reported with far too much bias - both on the Today prog and PM with Eddie Mair.
2. It's boring and simply revolves around private discussions that all you can do is speculate on
3. No money has been accepted - end of story
4. There are far more important things going on than this - it's not worthy of the BBC's reputation to keep banging on about this fluff.
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Osborne's rebuttal of Rothschild's claims is pretty impressive.
He concludes by saying: "This statement constitutes a full and detailed explanation of Mr Osborne and Mr Feldman's dealings with Mr Deripaska.
We would now urge Lord Mandelson to provide the same. "
Will he?
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Osborne's rebuttal of Rothschild's claims is pretty impressive.
He concludes by saying: "This statement constitutes a full and detailed explanation of Mr Osborne and Mr Feldman's dealings with Mr Deripaska.
We would now urge Lord Mandelson to provide the same. "
Will he?
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#325
Fair enough. Let's declare peace. I have no desire to get raised blood pressure.
My point is that NR was up to several months ago reasonably even-handed, and certainly not outside the margins of acceptable neutrality. But he has RECENTLY seemed to be soft on GB / hard on the Opposition.
"The issues NR has covered in the past couple of weeks are the issues that the right-wing media are also commenting on at the moment."
But it's partly what he's not commenting on, and questions of balance. He (and they) have given the revelation that Blair lied about Ecclestone / tobacco advertising minimal coverage. I would have though this was prime territory for a NR blog.
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If George Osborne remains as Shadow Chancellor at the General Election, he could prove to be the Labour Party's finest ever Recruiting Sergeant.
My advice, George, is this - for the sake of the Party and ere the cock craw's tomorrow, fall on your sword !
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More spin, counter-spin, and spiel. You can tell disgraced former minister Mandelson is back in the government.
Brown and company aren't really bothered about running the country, are they? They're only in it to try and put one over on the Tories at every turn.
That's all there is to say. Next story, please...
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Charlie E Hardwidge #235
You may like the Poles and Asians in your area because they have probably worked for you on the cheap while you have put and English man out of work. You say about people wanting to escape or traitor themselves but that is just what your Poles and Asains have done. And those who do leave here is because they do not see a future for them and their children. Children with weapons, jobs with the minimum wage or just above for working long hours. And if you do get a job its with a load of Poles so you cannot understand them.
But your right about the PM being a symbol of change. A change for the worse. But his presence does not invigorate, it just makes people mad when he tells us that he understands how we feel and he knows how hard it must be for us.
So come on Charlie get in todays world and take your head out your Zen book.
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294. sagamix
....if you substitute "better off" for "poor"
How can they become better off if the wealth leaves? You cant tax the poor to make the poor better off.
"the same" isnt better its the same. You know dull. unvarying, boring, lifeless.
.....Any case, British people, rich or otherwise, can't go that far (except to retire) because they can't communicate with foreigners.
Well the poor uneducated ones cant.
.....And if they've gone to retire, well then we won't be missing much wealth creation will we?
Errr have you any idea what pensioners spend? way off the mark here.
....One retiree out, one penniless, skilled and ambitious young immigrant in should work pretty well for us longer term, as regards the economy.
Who will be left to emplyee these poor penniless immigrants?
Sorry your understanding of economics is way off, the grey pound is big business.
Oh never mind, at least youll all be equal.
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Several bloggers on here have got it exactly right. No money changed hands, therefore there is no story. Nu-Lab are desperate, and they haven't yet realised that all the spin in the world can't turn the clock back.
Your time is up Zanu-Labour. You will pay for what you have done to this country.
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max @ 328
... "The 'grey pound' is an important part of the economy. The retired consume and spend a lot (and thus pay all manner of taxes)" ...
Mmmm, true enough. And old people behave a lot better too, on the whole - but I'd still be happy to see a fair few leave for pastures new, if that's what they want to do. I don't take it as a sign that the country is going to the dogs that some people want to live somewhere else, I think it's a good thing. I'd be more worried if everybody wanted to stay put because then we wouldn't be able to let so many new people in. And new people is what we badly need.
Although don't get me wrong - native Brits leaving the country is good news, sure enough, but the emigration should be purely voluntary!
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Mandy would have broken the rules had he been a UK minister not a mere EU one where anything goes it seems. Osbourne and the Conservatives clearly did not. Not even close. Mandy Has a record, of this and of plotting spin. This is clearly a spin operation.
The Conservative party would likely have systems in place to check on donation anyway at a later stage but it never even got that far!
I looks like the letter writer has some axe to grind, troublemaking. Media are stupid to make so much of this with it clearly being a non story invented for this purpose.
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re: 330, Max
Something tells me he's an anime nerd. He should join us in the real world.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I agree, all stakeholders in UK PLC have their issues. Perhaps, the people get the government they deserve but, also, the government gets the people it deserves. There is something complete about that.
Jaded, cynical, backward looking, and other unhelpful attitudes are what Zen would call procrastination. It colours our minds and just feeds the cycle. That's why Zen bangs on about letting go. It can take a while.
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How do you people (Max, you especially) get those italics working? - it gives posts which would otherwise be a bit humdrum a touch of, I dunno, distinction I suppose. I want a bit of that for my posts too, so maybe somebody could advise?
See, for example, I would have put DISTINCTION in italics up in that first para if only I knew how.
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steve @ 322
... "I don't know who Nat Rothschild is , tho I suspect he has alot of money and so do his friends. So it is very worrying to hear him suggest that public figures should keep their meeting with them private?" ...
Yeah too right - "Nat" (crazy name, crazy guy) sounds like he's a little bit up himself, doesn't he??
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Nick I have no particularly political allegiance but don't understand why you have actively resisted (by your own admission on Today this morning) investigating what seem to be rather obvious links in the Mandelson, Rothschild Deripaska triangle of vested interest, yet seem unable to resist getting involved in this extraordinarily tenuous tittle tattle along with Robert Peston.
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Seems to me Osborne bought this on himself. To all those Tories claiming its unfair...tough.
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Mandy seems to have spent a long time canoodling with Tory types in Corfu.
Of course, at that time he didn't know that he would be recalled to lead the Nu Labour Spintroopers.
Also, can anyone seriously imaging senior Tories (even Eton-educated ones) doing dodgy deals while Mandelson was lurking about?
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lazarus @ 327
... "whatever hope for the future there once was had been eroded steadily by insane scheme after insane scheme that costs more in tax and delivers less" ...
Yes, I know what you mean. I'm not as dispirited as you are (perhaps because where I live has really improved over the last few years) but it's definitely the case that the government has thrown so much money at certain things that there are problems spending it.
My particular bugbear is the NHS - I think we could save a ton of money there without significantly compromising the actual standard of health care. There's sometimes a tendency to think that better schools and hospitals equates exactly to better education and health care when, in fact, they are positively but by no means perfectly correlated.
But, like I say, I've lived in loads of countries and this one is still Top of the Pops for me.
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Looks like a good day to 'bury' bad economic news.
I wonder what that news was.
If the BBC Business Editor won't tell us (he's too busy issuing political stories), perhaps the Political Editor will.
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Just read Osborne's statement on the Times website. It's still (18.23) not on the BBC website...
If what Osborne says is accurate he's in the clear and Rothschild and others (maybe including Mandelson) are in deep do-do.
Nick Robinson, Robert Peston and the rest of the media will look like mugs, they'll have been used.
If Osborne's statement contains any untruths he's toast, to mix my metaphors.
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312. balhamu
Hey..... Foul Foul.
I voted Lib Dem in the last election dont I get an apology.
Fancy lumping me together with JD.
FOUL ref FOUL!!!!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Reading these comments, it strikes me, as with other blog comment, that the majority of contributors have a very tentative grasp of the subject that they so vehemently support or oppose. The only point I have to make is that I am going to hide in the hills as soon as an election is called. There is going to be a veritable tidal wave of political effluent.
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323. MaxSceptic
Oh no hes not off on the long march again is he?
How on earth do you manage to read his drivel, I always hit pagedown at the mere scent of his postings.
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Nick Robinson is doing what journalists do when they scent blood: they follow the story.
George Osborne's biggest problem is his original denial in the Times newspaper. He said Mr Rothschild’s allegations were completely untrue and that he did not seek donations from Mr Deripaska or his companies.
But then it turns out from his own account the allegations are least partially true and they did discuss donations from Mr Deripaska. We're just quibbling about the details.
It's the denial that gets you - ask Richard Nixon!
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I have not had a conversation with either party about donating £50k, but can I have a knighthood and a generous tax break please? We need to prove that these things are not doled out on the basis of favours to the parties and I feel that giving them to me would prove it once and for all.
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Let's see, Osbourne drops Mandelson in it the other week by telling the press about a potential conflict of interest when he was EU Trade Commissioner, because he accepted hospitality from Deripaska and lo & behold Deripaska's companies benefit from EU rulings - nothing to do with Mandelson of course - he told us so - it must be true.
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Journalistic objectivity and the BBC's political independence are the principal victims in this story. It is abundantly clear that what we are witnessing is a fishing expedition aimed at smearing Osborne. So, why would the BBC do that? And while we are on the subject, how did the Business correspondent become the story breaker?
What is needed here is a bit of discipline, less sensationalism, more honesty (for example, on the 6.00 R4 news I heard something that "the BBC has learnt", which is in fact verbatim from Osborne's statement!).
It might, for example, be good if you would give a complete account of how the story broke, who tipped who off and who the BBC spoke to before they went on air with the story.
Because the real story is becoming - why is the BBC smearing the Shadow Chancellor?
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whats telling is how nobody complained when these stories were about peter mandelson. and how is this labour spin? rothschild is no labourman. if anything, this episode does give credibility to labour claims about the tory press - why did they only mention osbourne when this guy wrote to the times? so much for balanced journalism. its pathetic to see people complaining how this isnt a story. if it wasnt, i doubt osbourne would have been sent outside to answer these questions (rather shiftily i thought) and threatened the times with legal action. these events also demonstrate some of osbournes character, and camerons. osbourne started all this by leaking about mandelson.
anybody agree that this event seems to vindicate many of the postings made by C.E.H?
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155# Purple Dogz
Firstly thaks for the "Socialist" compliment. Not used very often lately but may come back into fashion in the near future.
You seemto have missed my point so I'll try to explain again.
Two very rich blokes met.
One, Rothschild who 99% of people have neve heard of makes an allegation about the other, Osbourne, who is in Public Life holding an official position in HM Opposition.
The allegation IF untrue is undoubtedly defamatory, libellous and damaging to Osbourne.
Osbourne being a wealthy bloke could easily take redress in Law and sue for defamation etc.
His dilema of course is that richman one claims to have a witness prepared to vouch for his claim.
Ask yourself, what are the chances of this being fabrication on the part of Rotschild?
Ask yourself also if it is surely Osbourne would demand at the vey least a retraction and public apology.
Why has he not done this when his reputation and career could be on the line?
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I wonder what the poisonous Mandy has got on Rothchild?
Or is it that Mandy is or has done a dodgy-Hinduja job on behalf of Deripaska to 'ease' some business deal. Thus - has Mandy called in a favour from Deripaska to lean on Rothchild?
Nick - maybe some similar 'general' questioning of Mandy is in order?
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Yes, I remember using that phrase in here.
Both Britain and Japan are changing, and the various strengths and weaknesses of both countries are moving closer together so their long-term politics and culture is set to become mostly identical.
I don't watch broadcast TV and after all my yapping about Ieyasu Tokugawa in here why didn't someone tell me about BBC documentary The Shogun? Maybe, the BBC can take a hint and send me a free copy.
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Allegation: Osborne tried to tap up a Russian multi-billionaire, that's not millionaire but BILLionaire, for £50,000.
UNBELIEVABLE...... now, if he'd been accused of tapping him up for £500,000 or £5,000,000 I could have possibly been convinced.....
..... but there wasn't even a chance of that, because Mandelson would have been in there first!!
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What nobody seems to have asked as yet is why, if donations were not talked about and not intended to be discussed, did George Osborne propose that Andrew Feldman (the chief fundraiser for the Conservatives) be invited over to the villa owned by Mr Rothschild and then on to the yacht? George Osborne needs to address this question because it goes to the heart of what was in his mind when he went to meet Deripaska on his yacht in late August. It is no use issuing denials to very narrow allegations the story has now moved on.
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Quite simply Nick you are a disgrace to broadcasting.You have been brainwashed by your 'leftie' BBC brethren and you now toe the party line.Unforgiveable!
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PTTP,
You say "There is no story". Ok (though the media whatever its slant seems to disagree strongly with you).
A question:
Replace George Osborne with Gordon Brown.
Replace Feldman with Lord Levy.
Keep all the other facts the same.
Would there be a story now?
You're a pretty straight kind of guy, and I'm sure you'll answer me truthfully.
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In less than 3 weeks the 'Prince of Darkness' has reverted to type. This also has the fingerprints of Alistair Campbell. Anything to deflect from the wholly awful job done by our 2 consecutive 'Tartan Chancellors'.
What chance of a Mandleson hat-trick of resignations before the summer?
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"It seems Britain is heading more towards a 1950's style country without repeating the mistakes of yesterday. In that respect, Britain is becoming a little more like Japan."
It's good to know that you invest time learning the history, language and culture of Japan.
Pretty obvious that you don't understand UK history.
Getting back to the 1950s... Well, I guess you realise that Britain was still undergoing rationing in the early 1950s? Way past the time when the rest of Europe had sorted itself out.
The UK was settling into an uncertain future. All the cash injections from the "Marshall Plan" (a bit like the current "Brown Plan" - Marshall had nothing to do with its creation!), were gobbled up by nationalisation, so there wasn't much left - and state owned companies were beginning to show how bad organisations can become.
People got by on what they were paid - they weren't encouraged to borrow long in order to spend short...
Murderers faced the noose.
Grammar schools allowed people from every strata of society to obtain an "intellectual" education. Secondary schools tried to help less academic people get skills for life.
The "Empire" continued to give previous doiminions complete independence (quite properly).
So when you talk about "getting back to the 1950s, without repeating the mistakes of yesterday", just which bits would you adjust? And what would be left to hang on to?
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This story like David Davies resignation will be tomorrows chip paper and Thursday's trash. There is no other news right now aside from tragic motorway crashes. It fills a gap in the otherwise grey autumn evenings. It has no legs and will die a natural death.
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Get a move on you lazy moderators. You're as bad as the sleazy criminals who call themselves our government. (Well maybe not that bad.)
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Given the events going on in the world, is anyone actually really bothered or interested by this ?
Politicians meeting foreign businessmen, BBC bias is reporting news, Nick Robinsons poor reporting. Hardly news to anyone.
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re: 349, sagamix
To get italics, put i in triangular brackets at the start of the text to be italicised, and forward slash i in triangular brackets at the end.
Eg Bring on the election!
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The fact that 2 BBC commentators are so blatantly and persistently following the Government line is enough for me.
Both Robinson and Peston are a disgrace to their profession. The BBC is a disgrace as a national broadcaster. The sooner the licence fee is abolished and they have to compete as an independent broadcaster the better.
I suspect both our Mandelson mouthpieces would be on the dole queue
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carrots @ 342
... "How can they become better off if the wealth leaves? You cant tax the poor to make the poor better off" ...
You're missing a really key point - the poor won't stay poor. Without The Wealth (who will have gone, apparently) they will soon prosper and will become The Wealth themselves.
And I don't understand why you equate my stuff with sameness and stultification when I'm the one arguing for plenty of movement of people in and out - new ideas, new energy, different ways of living. It's the other vision, with The Wealth refusing to move along and make way, that more speaks of a grey, blanket uniformity, no?
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330. At 5:43pm on 21 Oct 2008, MaxSceptic wrote:
For Chuck upon his departure to the Land of the Rising Sun:
Max, do you know what the song was actually about?
Back to topic, Nick's updates are getting more and more pro-Labour. It is a disgrace to be frank. Why is he not balancing the stories: Mandelson back in Government, the revelations about the Ecclestone donations.
The BBC is a publicy funded organisation - not a mouthpiece for the Labour Party.
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349. At 6:13pm on 21 Oct 2008, sagamix @349,
I'm not very knowledgeable about all this, but try the crib sheet on
http://home.btconnect.com/tipiglen/links2.html
It shows how to itallicise, make bold and insert hyperlinks (links to web pages).
I'm sure there are better sites that can teach a lot more. Perhaps someone can refer you (and me!)
Good luck.
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My word Mandelson is definately back.Mandy and Alistair what a team.Unfortunately for the Tories they havent got anyone as scheming and vicious as these two characters.Their only saving grace is that voters are not that stupid anymore.More savvy is the right word.
They can see right through this.There will be plenty more in the coming months.It will be like a soap opera.
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No money was paid to the Conservative Party therefore George Osborne is in the clear!
I think David Cameron is right, the main concern here is the alleged corruption of the then EU Trade Commissioner, Mandelson. Once again the stench of Labour Party sleaze eclipses a Tory misunderstanding!
David Cameron has quite rightly backed George Osborne. Will dithering Brown be quite as categorical and fire Mandelson? That is the question!
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I think I've understood this much : Osborne takes his party's CEO and chief fundraiser to see a Russian billionaire, and there is, Osborne accepts, a conversation about a donation, and we are asked to accept that there is nothing untoward about this. Judgement, what judgement ?
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Nick Robinson, have you mislaid your copy of Journalism for Dummies?
Just wondering?
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BBC may be anti-tory but I don't think Robinson is. He was after all a Young Conservative a long long time ago ..
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I watched the Guardian vid of Osborne being interviewed and two things leapt out: When Osborne claimed people offered donations like this all this all the time (an attempt to make it seem everyday and not unusual, and when he claimed that Mandelson should offer a similar chronology to what he was going to release, he subconsciously shook his head on both occasions.
Personally, I'd be dubious of Osborne's account as it's just another one of those "get the facts" type of campaigns, and the way he emphatically ended the interview is bit too cut and dried. He also seemed to be under increasing pressure at one point before he ducked to another journalist, and a little cocky when his attention was on Labour while answering a question.
I think, Osborne is hiding more than he's revealing. The question is who, what, why, when, and where, and that can only spread and suck in more people and internal Tory party goings on which they've been very, very careful to keep off the radar. Perhaps, this is the sort of tiny mistake that has brought more arrogant people down. It will be interesting to see where this leads.
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Nick, as a concerned friend of yours, I think you should know the BBC Business editor is trying to muscle in on your territory.
Suggest you counter by starting a blog about the terrible economic news from today: house purchases down 53%, layoffs at Nissan, factory gloom worst since 1980, plus the story from yesterday about Government borrowing being the worst since 1946 - that sort of thing - just to show you are as capable of doing his job as much as he thinks he can do yours (when the Tories are the target that is).
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re: 365
Errmmm.... no.
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Tony Blair was visiting a primary school and he visited one of the classes. They were in the middle of a discussion related to words and their meanings. The teacher asked the Prime Minister if he would like to lead the discussion on the word "tragedy".
So the illustrious leader asked the class for an example of a "tragedy".
One little boy stood up and offered: "If my best friend, who lives on a farm, is playing in the field & a tractor runs over him and kills him, that would be a 'tragedy'".
"No," said Blair, "that would be an accident."
A little girl raised her hand: "If a school bus carrying fifty children drove over a cliff, killing everyone inside, that would be a Tragedy."
"I'm afraid not," explained the Prime Minister, "that's what we would call a great loss."
The room went silent. No other children volunteered. Tony searched the room.
"Isn't there someone here who can give me an example of Tragedy?"
Finally, at the back of the room, a small boy raised his hand...In a quiet voice he said: "If the Air plane carrying you and Mrs Blair was struck by a "friendly fire" missile and blown to smithereens, that would be a tragedy."
"Fantastic!" exclaimed Tony Blair. "That's right. And can you tell me why that would be tragedy?"
"Well," says the boy "it has to be a tragedy, because it certainly wouldn't be a great loss and it probably wouldn't be an accident either!"
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Mr Robinson is so excited about this story you would think he just woke up on Xmas morning and found out that he got all the presents he asked for.
The lack of balance in the reporting of this story is incredible.
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Starling isn't it. Nick Robinson (1985 Oxford University Conservative Association President) accused of showing bias towards the Labour party. Alternatively maybe the BBC isn't as biased as so many would like to think, when it reports something that happens not to conform to their personal belief system.
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I offered a little homily at # 258 to illustrate that the gap between 'us' {the people} and 'them' {the 'elite'} is really a yawning chasm.
Which is really what the subject matter of this thread is about, an argument amongst some political elite (Labour and Tory) and some very, very wealthy people.
There is a symbiotic relationship between these people, that is, the politicians and their sometime 'unofficial' sponsors.
Both sides need each other to enable themselves to further their respective political and business objectives.
We, the proles, are merely inconsequential bystanders in this spat.
Nevertheless, 'Dave' looks mightily annoyed and I suspect that is because because the cloak of political respectability has been lifted ever so slightly and dammit, he does need our votes, if not us as such.
S'allright Dave, the people know that your lot are just as shady as the other lot but when the time comes, you'll probably still get in by default because that is the way the system {does'nt} work.
What is more far more important to many of the population is todays news that the gap between richest and poorest has shrunk ever so slightly via the cumbersome 'tax-credits'.
Ah, a few crumbs for the peasants.
Thank you Labour (with metaphorical doffed cap).
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Nick
Either the statement in the Times from George Osborne is incorrect or you are toast.
I am getting a little bit fed up with the Institutional left wing bias of the BBC, an organisation that I am required by law to pay for if I have a TV.
The real questions that need to be asked are about Lord Mandelson. When did he first meet OD?
What further meetings did he have including social occasions?
Has he ever stayed with OD?
What other hospitality has he enjoyed including free travel and by whom?
He has always had problems separating his public from his private life and seems able to mix the two far too easily.
There's something for you and the BBC to get your teeth into.
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Any real news or just? or just this "don't mention the recession" nu labour spin?
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367# j cook
listen to yoursef!!
Do you think Mandy could be Lord Lucan or perhaps Martin Borman?
Its very strange and the BBC should ask some tough questions to find out instead of bothering the Tory Party with inconvenient questions about funding.
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It seems posts have not been moderated between 6:58 until 8:51 pm.
Maybe the BBC is already focusing on the redistribution of programme making away from London and needs to cut the costs.
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Time to put up or shut up. Either complain to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards and the Electoral Commission, or get off the high horse and back in the gutter.
The fact that there are apparently three iterations of the infamous Times letter and the story has wilted from soliciting a £50K donation (yeah right!) to talking about donations does not look good for Rothschild, the Times, and those BBC correspondents that are lapping up whatever they are being drip-fed.
I trust the BBC will look over Mandelson's misdeeds with equal fervour...assuming the corporation has recovered from the Hutton emasculation which seems to have set the news agenda in recent years.
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This whole affair involving Lord Mandelson and various other gentlemen has so disgusted me, that I cannot comment in any sensible manner. This farce is so comical it is tragic. Oscar Wilde in his greatest moments could have penned the tale of corruption, secrets, bribery and greed, all taking place on an island famed for its mythology, as well as its beauty. This however, is only the tip of the iceberg, no doubt as time passes more shocks and thrills await us. The mantle of Lord was barely on his boney shoulders before this new story made the headlines. Can this honour only be removed by Her Majesty? It would be nice if we could return to the days of Henry VIII, because I think he would have solved the problem very swiftly by removing not only the mantle!
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Another point which has been puzzling me since I read this,
Why would Rothschild take this action at the behest of Blair/Mandelson? I doubt he is indebted to them, nor could they offer him any real incentive as Labour are almost certainly going to be in opposition within the next 2 years, at which point he will be dealing with an ex friend in power.
I can only think he is wrapped up in the whole Mandelson/Deripaska conflict of interest saga and does not want this to be probed
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I wonder whether Gordon Brown knew about this and decided to appoint Mandelson as a way to flush it out and get Osborne's scalp!
If it didn't work, Mandelson will either be a star performer, or go out for the third time - perhaps with Osborne!
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This is great stuff Nick you've really rattled the cage of all these Tories.
No need really to add a post the Tories are doing all the damage themselves.
"Methinks they protest to much" springs to mind or give them enough rope and they will hang themselves, it's really entertaining.
Thankyou Mr Osbourne for giving us such fun, and Goodbye and goodluck.
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Charles_E_H..... @368 wrote:
"Yes, I remember using that phrase in here."
Of course you did, dear.
And you also wrote all of Shakespeare's works and you and your wife co-wrote his sonnets.
Is there anything that you haven't either said or written before anyone else?
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Quite clear, Osborne broke confidence from the meeting and offended the host in his desparation to get the next derogatory remark out. Im no fan of Mandleson but he has maintained the confidence despite provocation from Osborne. The host has clearly been offended at Osbornes behaviour and called time.
Obornes response to the crisis was negligable and when he moves into his element he finally get caught.
With a bit of luck he will get his come uppance.
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Sorry to go off blog but it deserves a mention, did anyone see the film "Rendition" Last night,That will certainly make you think of mans inhumanity to man and quite a bit about religion.
I thought it very thought provoking it made 42 days look like a holiday on the Costa Del
I think its on tonight again.
Ok back to Osbourne.
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The blind panic of blogging on both this an Pestons page has been quite revealing. Political concencus bust on the banking crisis. Torries with nothing to say. Nothing. Zip. The whiff of scandle raises the ghost of sleeze. All of a sudden the troops hit the keys claiming bais. Really? Me think's if you can't take it don't dish it out. This is a story. The new Torry party has been desperate to get back onto any news agenda, well boys, here you are. Dealing with Russian's trying to raise cash, any ammount of cash, despite the carping from Cameron in the past, is a story. The torry bloggers seem to me to be a bit scared. If it isn't a story, why go on about it?
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381. At 7:36pm on 21 Oct 2008, Neil_Small147 asked:
"Max, do you know what the song was actually about?"
Actually, no.
But I'm ready to be enlightened.
(I like pop music and try not to analyse the lyrics too much: e.g. Little Richard: "Bama lama, bama loo, bama lama, bama loo" or even worse, the Police: " ...like the old man in That book by Nabokov).
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I don't think it would be such a bad idea if Geoge Osborne was replaced by a Mandelson style heavyweight such as Kenneth Clarke or even William Hague. For me right now he is a bit of a weak link in the chain.
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I was talking about the upsides of a broad model. Most reasonable folks know what I'm talking about and I don't do debate, so picking it to pieces doesn't do much for me.
The creation of the Lightning jet, NHS, and general outlook has something going for it. The world has changed but a better focus can achieve better things. I believe, that potential is there. Folks just have to grab it.
I daren't tell anyone what some of my dreams and ambitions are. I'd be laughed out of town. But, it might make for an interesting politics programme if politicians let their hair down for a moment.
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Oh dear, the name Robinson seems to play a definitive part in the ongoing Mandelson saga, and I don't mean Robinson Crusoe! The first resignation of the illustrious Mandelson was due to the loan given to him by the millionaire MP Geoffrey Robinson. It seems his chickens (or Robinsons) come back to haunt him.
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Was this meeting of three very rich people and two politicians simply a holiday or was there another agenda which the little people (us) are not entitled to know about. Were other people around as well, that they do not wish us to know about?
The fact that the Times lawyers redrafted the letter from Rothschild, not once but twice is also unusual. The press would normally print it verbatim whilst disclaiming all responsibility for it. It appears that the letter to the Times was prompted because Osbourne in the words of Kevin MacGuire (Daily Mirror) broke the code of omerta (a mafia term to not tell secrets). Which brings us full circle to the point made in para 1.
I think that the way the media is following the scent, or in some cases laying the trail of the scent, the above questions would be most unwelcome. There is a bit of a smell about this one, and I get the impression that Murdoch and the Russian are not thrilled with the extra publicity.
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This is my first blog. I am finding it seriously hard to believe that the entire BBC seems to be pinning its lead story on the impeccable integrity of a hedge fund manager. Or maybe its just market sentiment?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
BTW balhamu I replied sensibly and coherently to your post 372 but someone's referred it. That is censorship. It should be put back tomorrow but I've posted it again anyway.
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As a national newspaper journalist, I have to say that Nick Robinson appeared more like a Labour press officer than a public broadcast reporter in this piece.
To suggest that Osborne refused to answer questions put to him by journalists was simply untrue (he framed his answers in line with the message he wanted to put out).
Later in the piece, Robinson described how more information had just come to light showing Osborne was not telling the truth. Yet this new info did not accuse Osborne of soliciting the money, but merely repeated the claim that a conversation about funding had taking place (which Osborne did not deny).
And Robinson seemed barely be able to constrain himself at the end of the broadcast (10pm), when stating how extremely damaging the affair was to the Tories. While we expect our newspapers to have political bias, public broadcasters - funded by the taxpayer - should not be following this lead. Let's hope the powers that be will have a word with George.
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'we neither asked for money nor did we receive money' Hummmm? Please can somebody find out if any money was actually paid into the Leyland Daff account?
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Look at this left-wing bias last time a funding scandal hit the Labour Party
Look down the November 2007 blog topics (noticed as I was checking out relative treatment of Labour when scandal hits) - so much bias towards the Government.
28 blog postings (NR was more prolific certainly):
8 on David Abrahams (negative for Labour)
5 on lost disks (negative for Labour)
2 on Northern Rock (negative for Labour)
Indeed, only 9 postings are not negative about the Government. Bias I tell you, bias.
* One Picture (David Abrahams dodgy donations to Labour)
* In the Papers (more on David Abrahams, reporting an unsubstantiated story from the Telegraph)
* Remaining Questions (you guessed it, more on David Abrahams)
* Someone else knew (do I even need to say - more on David Abrahams)
* Keeping Cool (David Abrahams)
* The Curse of the North (er, David Abrahams with passing reference to Northern Rock and lost disks)
* Toxic Mix (surprise, surprise - David Abrahams)
* Revelation Resignation (A change! A story about David Abrahams)
* New World Issues (reporting on a GB speech on welfare reform)
* Cover Up or Ignorance (lost child benefit disks)
* Those E-Mails in full (lost child benefit disks)
* So Where are the CDs (lost child benefit disks)
* A Yawning Gap (er, lost child benefit disks)
* A Major Operational Problem (lost child benefit disks)
* Protecting the Taxpayer (Northern Rock)
* Getting Out in Time (Northern Rock)
* Extended Detention (Explanation of Government legislation plans for detention of terrorist suspects)
* Before and after (detention plans pointing out changes in Lord's West change in position after talking to Brown)
* Security Checks (illegal immigrants working in security industry)
* Words and Deeds (comment on Government's foreign policy)
* Hague Makes New Euro Policy (committing to referendum or renegotiation if Labour accepted the Constitution)
* No misunderstandings (GB Mansion House Speech and cold-shoulder to Bush)
* Intriguing (FOI requests showing that Labour inheritance tax policy shift that they were accused of working up on the hoof to trump the Tories with were in pipeline from January 2007)
* Whose reform (HMT FOI Request)
* Best behaviour (GB and DC getting on well)
* A vision of the Queen's Speech (what will be in the QS and does GB have 'a vision')
* A NEET Problem (Labour haven't done enough to help children not in education or employment)
* A Poignant Event (comment on occasion seeing Gerry Adams and father of Warrington bomb victim meeting)
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What were the BBC thinking leading with this mince on tonight's news at ten?
The only thing this item illuminates is the fact that high ranking members of both of the UK's leading political parties like to hang about with money, be it new or old - and it's not like that's a great surprise any more.
And the Gov of the Bof E finally saying the "R" word only merited second billing.
I wonder how many people will actually be affected by this item, as opposed to a gaggle of ex public school boys bitching about each other. Who needs Desperate Housewives!
Lord Peter Dead Pan of Flexie will be highly delighted with such a quick win.
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I had not realised that Oleg Deripaska has attracted a fair amount of attention by the FBI in relation to business transactions between UK and US, through the auspices of a prominent british bank.
Funny how the US regulators have picked up on this, but the UK regulators are OK with it.
As a result of this he is banned from entering the US - not exactly an endorsement of good character.
The smell i mentioned in #413 is a bit stronger now.
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Mandleson and Campbells come back is just like Borgs last comeback in tennis.
Borg returned to pro-tennis with an old fasioned little wooden racket sure that it was all that he needed.
However things had moved on, and carbon fibre, large headed rackets were the new tools -- no amount of skill with the old tools could lift him above the average player with the new tools.
Mandleson and Campbell are trying their old tricks with their old tools -- completely unaware of the changes that online media (particularly blogs) have made to the life of news stories.
Some old-school journalists have fallen for the lure of the nostagia of the old days -- but are now being hammered by the 100+mph serves made easy with internet communication.
Nick, Robert - you've backed the wrong horse this time.
Robert - mandleson and the russian were obviously trying to entrap osbourne so they had something on him when the tories get power at the next election (and they failed) -- but why are you so involved? do they have something on you?
Nick -- what have you done to your reputation and career? All you can do is quote some meaningless questions to try to make it look like there is something - where there is, in fact, nothing.
At the start of this I thought george should go (and it was a good excuse to get rid of him, given a lacklustre performance by the tories over labours banking idiocy) -- but now I think he has earnt his spurs - unflustered, mater of fact, no evasion, no equivacation, no diversion. I am now an ozzy fan - keeping his head, while the journalists around him lose theirs...
If he doesn't 'fit in' with those he was with in corfu, this is a *good* thing -- because they appear to be the lowest form of life...
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A lowly £50k - sorry, the mere *discussion* of a lowly £50k - and the BBC is making this its headline story? Are you serious?
Labour has accepted - not merely discussed - far larger sums than this, under far murkier conditions.
What about the £1m from Ecclestone which Blair claimed not to know about? That was shown last week to be an outright lie, and should have been a much bigger story than this.
The BBC's political coverage is fast becoming a joke.
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I ask everyone here claiming that this story is "New Labour spin" by Robert Peston and Nick Robinson, to declare now what journalistic investigations they have done to deduce that this story has been cooked up by Mandelson and delivered to the BBC? What evidence do you have that it is spin? None, because none of you are professional journalists. If, on the other hand, the commenters here were linking/quoting other articles which disagree with Nick's conclusions, then fair enough, criticize the BBC over this story. But none of you have, so put the ad hominems down please.
I find it laughable that Nick is claimed to have a Labour bias: you people do realise that he was the national chairman for the Young Conservatives? So if he was to have any bias at all, it would be a Tory bias.
Anyway, to my mind, Nick comes across fairly neutral and so doesn't seem to have a bias as far as I can tell. I mean did you people actually read the original post? The first half of it describes the allegations against Mandelson. It is the second half of the story that describes the allegations against Osbourne. You see? Balanced because both stories get equal weighting. I think it is absurd to claim that any story reporting anything anti-tory automatically makes the author anti-tory. Hello? Don't shoot the messenger. The messenger just reported the facts here i.e. Rothschild has accused Osbourne of this. What is anti-tory about reporting the facts of an accusation? If the accusation hadn't been made and the BBC were reporting on it anyway, then that would be anti-tory.
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Perhaps the BBC should come clean about what it knows about this Mandelson thing (not the Brown gossip, but the connection with this wealthy Russian). This is potentially far more serious.
It is worrying the BBC magnified the Osbourne events to top news when we know we have someone in government who has spent the last few years in an unelected position in a discredited foreign quango.
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"I was talking about the upsides of a broad model. Most reasonable folks know what I'm talking about and I don't do debate, so picking it to pieces doesn't do much for me."
Problem is that you don't define what "broad model" you think existed in the 1950s. A consensus that, after the catastrophic impact of WWII, a better world needed to be built. Nobody would dispute that.
I'm a pretty reasonable sort of guy (that sounds too Blairish) with a reasonable moral compass (too Brown!).
The 1950s offered some hope of calm after turmoil. But most of the UK's broken economic fundamentals - your phrase - stem from the late 1940s and whole 1950s.
Industrial management's abdication of genuine guidance and responsibility, in the face of an organised, but under-skilled workforce who'd been led to believe they would live in a land fit for heroes.
The defeated German and Japanese peoples worked their socks off to try and rebuild what had been destroyed.
The Brits had been givn the impression that, with nationalisation, things could only get better.
To conflate the Lightning jet with the NHS as examples of all that was good is pretty obtuse.
We know you don't debate.
I'm not surprised.
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What has a private conversation that Osbourne may or may not have had - about anything - with Feldman got to do with Robinson or me or the cat's mother?
Has a foreign donation been channeled through a front company into the Tory party's account?
Surely that is where the point of law lies.
Anything else is just gossip and I don't expect to the Today gang to ask Robinson just where is his evidence.
I think that Nick Robinson and Robert 'Business Editor' Peston should join the 3am Girls if thye are so behoven to gossip.
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#426 deamon138
If you think only 'professional' journalists should get to speak what are you doing on a blog?
And when the 'professional' journalists are only 'professional' by dint of their collecting money for their work (money taken under duress from the licence fee payers), I don't really think there is any moral high ground in the title...
Not so long ago the BBC aparantly knew nothing about any yachts (or murdochs presence) It was just a chance meeting in a restaurant in corfu.
Now all of a sudden it is a series of private parties on estates and yachts -- if the BBC didn't know this earlier, then they sure as hell didn't find out by 'investigation' -- someone told them, and told them for a reason. Alternatively they *did* know this earlier, but chose not to report it to us their real paymasters.
The second option (choosing not to report it) would be in line with 'nats' rules of 'private parties should be just that'...
Particularly as Nicks original analysis was not about the rights and wrongs of donations, but on his perception of 'foolishness' on george in not keeping everything secret in the first place...
Nick has recent form on 'keeping secrets' rather than working as a reporter - I am sure I commented at the time - he said that many labour MP's and ministers had been criticising Brown, but he had been told 'off the record' and on that basis the 'rules' meant that he could not report it... pathetic...
As it has been admitted that secrets are kept, one has to wonder what other secrets are BBC journalists witholding from the public who pay their salaries?
All this and you want to rely soley on 'professional journalists' for your information and analysis? or do you just want *us* to rely on it, so you only have one point of contact to manipulate?
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These Tories don't like it up em do they!
HAHAHA!!!
I give George 2 days max, Cameron 5
If you cant keep clean on the opposition benches the how will they in government ?
Conservatives are doomed!
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From the so-called AAA blogs I've seen most are saying they're something new but they're using all the same (Gosh, Wow) techniques of management, design, marketing, and so forth.
Blogs have been dealt a blow by the fake Steve Jobs heart trouble story, and tossed up issues of standards. Plus, comment is so much static. Games forums are the same and they've been around for years.
A new medium doesn't change a thing. Technology never does change anything because you're looking in the wrong place. This issue is and always has been people.
Why are Britain's major ISP's putting adware servers that snoop our clickstream on the nations critical infrastructure when it's supplied by a company with close connections to the criminal Russian Business Network?
Why are the CBI so quiet about the corporate governance issues surrounding customers and the wider internet communities data protection, interception,and intellectual property rights?
Why are the Tory party so quiet about big business making money by using legal and regulatory loopholes to break the law when they so loudly oppose sensible national security legislation?
Say no to Phorm.
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I loved the BBC Five 'Drive' Programme. The Presenter got someone from the Standards committe to discuss the incident.
The chap then mentioned Bernie Ecclestone and £1,000,000 paid to the Labour Party.
OOPS!
The presenter had to think very quickly and try and get away from that own goal.
Typical BBC Bias.
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It's to stop getting sucked into nit-picky this versus that stuff that rolls on forever and into nowhere. Too many people want to "win" or lead you off some garden path so I don't even start.
Make a few points, stroke a few egos, let things roll-on. If you want more than this this probably isn't the place for it because it's too much effort and just tramples over everything else.
The broken fundamentals go way back, perhaps, to just after Celtic times. Britain has never really escaped its Anglo-Saxon and feudal history. It's too dumb and insular which is another reason to send the Tories back to the drawing board.
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Videostuff
You seem very keen on saying that Nick cannot be pro-labour because he was once a young tory. Very... very.. keen... yawn...
Blair was originally a member of CND (campaign for nuclear disaremament) - given he subsequently had his 'finger on the nuclear button' for a decade how do you view this?
Was blair being 'iroinic'; or had he actually redefined 'CND' to the extent that having your finger on the button was OK; or was he a sleeper who secretly disconected the button every morning; or was he sticking two fingers up at the losers in CND who he never really supported, but had associted with because it was good for his career?
Come on which of these options is parallel to Nicks participation in the young conservatives? Or is there another alternative? - Whatever Nick is, he hasn't got a tory bone in his body - you need to put up or shut up...
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He tried to dig the dirt on Mandy, and ended up shooting himself in the foot. Typical supremely confident Eton boy who thinks the world cant touch him, always daddy to fall back on.
He has lost a friend because he betrayed his trust, he cannot be a chancellor because he is well known for briefing against others. The man is a fool, and if he had a proper job he would be found out very quickly
He epitomises the new young Tory brethren, cocky, vindictive and just plain nasty masked by a nice accent and grammar that would impress Americans.
In the past few weeks he has proven to be a disaster as a shadow chancellor, opinion polls have clouded Camerons judgement.
Finally Cameron and every single Tory front bencher have gone to ground…enough said. It isn’t going go away, its going to get worse, and to try and counter attack shows very poor judgement.
Seems the strategy is to try and take Mandy down with him, the very same strategy that got him in this mess in the first place. Their belligerence knows no bounds.
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431:
You wish!
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404:
I think you'll find in the fullness of time that it's Lord Mandy that will hang himself if the rope is available. All his labour opponents must be hoping against hope that he doesn't put a foot wrong. As for the Corfu thing it certainly hasn't rattled my cage because there is nothing of any note to report and the story will be dead in days. I bet you wish it would run and run. Fat chance my friend!
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@ #430 the-real-truth:
Where on earth did I say that I "think only 'professional' journalists should get to speak"? I didn't. I merely said that if people are going to claim that this story is just spin and collusion between the BBC and New Labour, then they might want to provide evidence for them not to seem like morons defending the Tories even without any evidence to back them up.
What the vast majority of the comments on here have been like is: "ZOMG the BBC reports on an accusation that the Tories solicited an illegal donation so I will reply by calling the BBC liars or corrupted by Mandelson spin". So instead of denying the accusation against Osbourne with evidence, the commenters are just claiming it is all false without any proof. That is why I asked them "to declare now what journalistic investigations they have done to deduce that this story has been cooked up by Mandelson and delivered to the BBC". It seems reasonable that if they are so sure that this is all just spin then they would've investigated it and dug around a bit, don't you?
"only 'professional' by dint of their collecting money for their work (money taken under duress from the licence fee payers)" It is not money "taken under duress", you are quite able to not pay the licence fee - it's called not watching television. But the BBC is worth it alone in my opinion. As I said, this is nice, neutral journalism. Much more neutral than any other media source anyway.
"Not so long ago the BBC aparantly knew nothing about any yachts (or murdochs presence) It was just a chance meeting in a restaurant in corfu. Now all of a sudden it is a series of private parties on estates and yachts -- if the BBC didn't know this earlier, then they sure as hell didn't find out by 'investigation' -- someone told them, and told them for a reason. Alternatively they *did* know this earlier, but chose not to report it to us their real paymasters."
Or alternatively, when the Mandelson story broke, the BBC (and the Times since the Osbourne story broke in the Times) did some investigating afterwards. Do you see how that works? How present comes after past? How in the past you can not know something, and then in the present know about it, because you learn about it in the intervening moments?
"he had been told 'off the record' and on that basis the 'rules' meant that he could not report it... pathetic..."
Well I assume that reporting something like that might be considered slander or some such thing, and if he went ahead and reported it, he would be in trouble, without the original source to back him up since it was "off the record" and they don't want to come forward.
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411 ceh
I was talking about the upsides of a broad model. Most reasonable folks know what I'm talking about and I don't do debate, so picking it to pieces doesn't do much for me.
well, stop blogging, if you do't do debate.
do you do keep quiet, talk sense?
you vain smarmy custard!
(and that custard is an amalgamation of two words, which describes you to a T, as well as the yellow lumpy variety!)
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See Nick's United for how much longer? topic, dated 16-01-2007, post #62. Richard Feynman had that irritating habit as well. Dunno why. The ever overflowing cup of genius, I suppose. Such is the misery of being but a mere mirror to Dear Leader's magnificence.
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Nick blogs - we comment.
Debate is a sterile game of winners and losers, of which truth is a by product. I recommend you read the post again and if you don't get it look up thesis, conversation, and positive consensus.
I was thinking of how people were so used to Machiavellian perspectives that people like the Tories kept fight and fighting until they got their fingers burned. While they react with even more bullishness and paranoia, mostly, they're just dancing at ghosts and tearing themselves apart.
Better just to let go and be happy.
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Nick seeing as you and peston are now sharing, perhaps you can share this with him, and the rest of your colleagues at the BBC.
Mr Peston, as you are the son of a Labour Peer can I remind you of the BBC Editorial guidelines:
* We must treat matters of public policy or political or industrial controversy with due accuracy and impartiality in our news services and other output.
* We must not express an opinion on current affairs or matters of public policy other than broadcasting.
* We must not campaign, or allow ourselves to be used to campaign.
Courtesy of Guido blogger, perhaps it's time now to have a closer look at this BBC statement.
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@ 439 says's
I merely said that if people are going to claim that this story is just spin and collusion between the BBC and New Labour, then they might want to provide evidence for them not to seem like morons defending the Tories even without any evidence to back them upy's..
Perhaps the BBC and New Labour should also provide evidence..just a thought.
But..there is evidence that mandelson as EU commissioner was actually staying with said Russian, and that is apparent conflict of interest, yes, I'm aware that the EU (bastion of honesty, financial accountability and representatives of the 'people') has said there has been no breach, but i personally would prefer an independent British investigation, where FACT's not spin is the basis.
That said I am quite relieved and hopeful after discussion's with others (all political persuasion's), that the majority of people are not for one minute fooled by this story, and are quite clear about it's purpose.
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LBC 97.3 Nick Ferrari has just run a mini poll, who is most sleazier, baron mandelson or George Osbourne, so far, 100% say baron mandelson.
made me smile.
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We had three loads of bad economic news yesterday, reported in more depth elsewhere than the BBC.
Today, Mery says we are heading for a vicious recession. This bombshell is tucked away as more minor news item.
R-E-C-E-S-S-I-O-N Mandy, RE-CESS-ION.
It is a question of priorities.
"Let the People Speak" isn't it?
Does that mean informing the people what the experts say, so they can make preparation to minimise the impact?
No instead, we are treated to agit-prop pseudo-1968 Sixth form politics from one journalist smarting from an official complaint over his 'scoops' and another frightened of his own reporting from years gone by.
Heading the charge of a carrion BBC over a story they didn't break casting innuendo by headline. A story with Mandy's fingerprints all over it.
MANDY'S FINGERPRINTS ALL OVER IT.....
I'm not sure if the BBC thinks the public are thick or that the BBC is arrogant enough that they can get away with this political smoke screen and partners in crime to a Government that is in deep do-do.
One of the key players has clarified their position in minute detail and even suggested that they seek the other side of the story...
From Mandy himself.
Who would in no way either mislead or obfuscate himself would he?
Oh no, no.
After all, Mr. Aluminium as he is known has been in regular contact with Mandy for years during his time as EU Commissioner.
What's the bigger story here? A 50 Grand donation or a massive conflict of interest?
Whiter than white wasn't it all those years ago?
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Talk about "Mandy's revenge"Has he really got so much influence over some reporters and the media.I wonder why? mmmmmmmm
Now what ever happened to other sleaze accusations:Bernie,Hain,Alexander,Abrahams,Mandy,Johnson,Levy,Robinson,Irvine,Vaz,Byers,Moore,Milburn,Blair,Blunkett to name just a few from memory.
Seems the Mandy and Campbell spin team is Labour's dream team to win the next election .
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What goes around comes around Mr Osbourne....and sometimes very quickly indeed!
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The Times reports that George Osbourne took a break from his Corfu sojourn to give a speech on POVERTY.
You really couldn't make it up.
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The country is entering a deep recession, opined by even the most optimistic of 'experts' ; we are mired in our own personal and national debt; Gordon Brown is acting as a global Superman whilst we all stew at home, and all the BBC and others can talk about and highlight is George Osborne's indescretions!! Yes he was unwise to even get mixed up wth Peter & his friends, but surely this news should not dominate our aiwaves and TV screens?
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I'm coming into this string quite late, however it stikes me that none of the parties in this affair emerge with their credibility entirely intact. I think it was The Times yesterday that contained a quote, along the lines of: if you get into the gutter you expect to get dirty, and this seems to have been borne out by events.
I understand that it took three attempts to get the facts in the letter right for publication in The Times. I can't check on the veracity of this and I don't know if this was borne out in any TV news reports last night, but I would expect that if true such an event would be of considerable interest.
Whilst at one level I can underatand some of the logic behind the letter being written, there is one question, if it was me contemplating writing it, I would find troubling: how on earth could anyone trust me again?
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To Grandantidote at 96
Firstly it is not illegal to go for donations it is only illegal if you receive donations in this way, no
matter what was said at the time. At this time I dont see this as a particularly important story.
Mandelson we all know is the master of spin and if you followed the story you would find that not only Tony Blair was involved in telephoning Rothschild but Mandelson helped him change his story 3 times in the times.
Rothschild does not have several witnesses to this conversation he has one who has not spoken out yet.
What I have against Mandelson is what most of the public have against him, that he is a vile person who cannot help destroying people.
He has been disgraced twice, for Labour to make him a peer is disgusting. He has his own questions to answer for what occurred on this holiday as you will know and this is pay back time for G. Osborne for bringing it to light.
Furthermore over the years Labour have been involved in far more serious issues than this too many to detail have you forgotton that T. Blair was interviewed by the police.
What Im saying is this is small fry and being blown out of proportion when important issues are being sidelined we are having a recession you know.
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Perhaps in hind sight it can be said that the shadow chancellor has showed bad judgement,
He should not stay or attend a 'friends' home, while on holiday.
Especially when that friend appears to be substantially involved with a Russian millionaires investments.
As opposition chancellor he should not attend any meeting social or otherwise that the EU commissioner is present at.
Especially when the said EU commissioner, has very close link's and friendship with the said Russian millionaire, (and was in fact re-siding on his friends boat at the time), and it is quite apparent that the Russian millionaire did quite well with aluminium under the EU commissioner.
The shadow chancellor should run a mile, every time somebody offers a donation.
Especially, if from trusted 'friend' and family member of known Tory party fundraisers/donors.
What i would like to know is why this 'friend' Rothschild a known investment advisor to the russian millionaire, a russian millionaire who has close links and friendship with EU commissioner mandelson (who stayed on yacht), and mandelson now elevated (he had no idea) to lord, now in charge as Business minister for the labour government, would think a donation from the russian millionaire to Tory party would be possible.
There is a serious story here, and Osbourne is not it.
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Charles_E_H..... @441 wrote:
"See Nick's United for how much longer? topic, dated 16-01-2007" .
Gosh! Golly! So two people use the same well-known saying 18 months apart.
There can be only 3 explanations:
1) Great minds think alike (I think we would both discount that option).
2) I've sublimated your verbal pearls of wisdom.
3) We both are sufficiently educated to know a very well know Japanese saying. (Which, by the by, is not unique: If you were intending to emigrate to Oz I'd mention the 'tall poppy syndrome').
Re @442:
I know you don't 'do debate'.
I do abuse. I think you do the verbal equivalent of self-abuse. Don't worry: you won't go blind or grow hair on the palms of your hands....
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Why are we discussing political trivia suitable for the gossip columns? This is a non-story about a non-donation!
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Thanks for pointers on italics and stuff (PPL, Max, Wilko) - can't wait to try it out - you have unleashed a monster! ...
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As well as your comments about Robert Peston may I thank the Daily Mail for pointing out yet another coincidence about the Andrew Marr on Sunday, where Andrew was nowhere to be seen but we had the wonderful Sophie as his substitute. Convenient that Andrew was not around to interview Lord Mandelson, would the good Lord have come on if it had actually been Andrew, I just ask?
As for Sir Brian Pittman also being on the programme, the first banker to appear because the others may not actually like any questions, even though Sir Brian is of course now retired from LloydsTSB, as Chairman or Chief Executive.
My point is that according to the Daily Mail, a paper we can trust to give the readers the truth on these matters, Robert Peston 'is a close friend of Roland Rudd, whose firm Finsbury runs PR for Northern Rock and LloydTSB'.
Now is it not weird that Northern Rock is now nationalsised and the only banker willing to come on to the Andrew Marr programme was Sir Brian Pittman of LloydsTSB. What an absolute coincidence.
Now, the other item I think we ought to be told is that some sponsors of football clubs have hit financial problems and it is noticeable the number of clubs now without any logos on their team shirts. When I saw match reports of the Newcastle game guess what, yes they still had the shirt sponsors of Northern Rock embalzoned across their shirts. I hope that taxpayers money is not going into the club whilst there are reports that home repossessions are increasing for those with Northern Rock mortgage holders.
Finally, noted that Lord Mandelson was drawn to bring in the 'R' word, the word would not pass his lips. In the meantime the governor of the bank of England issues the 'R' word and guess what the pound plummets. I wonder if there will now be a vendetta against Mr King because he dared to tell the truth.
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