Howls of protest
Wow! The mere mention of Margaret Thatcher really is toxic.
My previous blog has provoked howls of protest from Tory modernisers who loathe the idea that their leader was going "Back to the Future".
They insist that their leader was delivering a centrist speech complete with promises to tackle the causes of crime, to make tough green choices (such as cancelling Heathrow's third runway and building a high speed rail link instead) and to deliver family friendly policies.
They point to their leader's insistence that he was not an ideologue, his praise for the role of the state and his positioning as a One Nation Tory in the line of Peel, Shaftesbury and Disraeli.
All fair points. I was not and do not claim that the Tories are going backwards or that Cameron today abandoned the modernisers' agenda.
I do note, however, that the Tory leader explicitly invited the country to compare himself with Margaret Thatcher in 1979 - when she was "the novice" confronting the "experienced" Jim Callaghan during an economic crisis. His remedy, like hers, is "sound money and low taxes".
This should come as no surprise. Cameron and all those close to him were children of Thatcher (no, not literally) and, when it comes to economics, they still are.
What should also come as no surprise to the Tories is that if you mention Margaret Thatcher it will get noticed and probably cause a fuss.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~38~RS~)
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Back to the future is spot on !
Living within our means...
Law and order...
An end to political correctness...
This is the speech Cameron couldn't give until now, as he had to 'decontaminate the brand'.
Now that he has 'changed' the party to accept the environment, social liberalism and economic prudence [no tax cutting without savings], he feels more confident about tickling the Tory party on traditional 'box-ticking' areas..
The 'change' mantra was a bit dull though - I thought for a minute of that David Bowie soundtracked skit from 'Time Trumpet'. Or that he was going to metamorphose into Barack Obama..
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He sounded like someone going for election as Head Boy. The speech was very flat and vague. I struggle to remember a specific fact, aside from a cut in corporate taxation.
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I agree that associating himself with Mrs T is a good thing for Dave. She was the novice and had the guts, brains and determination to change Britain for the better. Yes, some of her policies weren't right but we needed her and she was in the right place at the right time.
Look at what the previous 2 labour adminstrations had done to the country and how they'd coped with the economic crisis at the time.
We needed a leader with the skills and obstinacy of Mrs T to pull the country around and too make the hard choices that others would have fled from.
Dave needs to be the same kind of man, willing to take unpopular decisions that will improve the country we live in. Now is the time and the man cometh.
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Nick,
It only causes a fuss because the BBC and you especially have taken it out of context and are making a huge thing of it.
Once again Labour bias on the BBC.
Not one other commentator I've heard has made such a big thing out of it.
Maybe you should concentrate on the whole speech and wonder why the Tories are ahead in the polls - because we've all had enough of Labour.
I've voted Labour for nearly 30 years but not this time.
How can a Labour Government justify landing students in debt when they promised in their manifest that they would not introduce fees.
Labour used to be for the working class - unfortunately not any more.
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I remember Lady Thatcher and think she was brilliant. She was strong and we all knew what she stood for. A true conviction politician, indefatigable who ruled with a passion and a velvet hand in an iron glove!
I think she rated top out of the former prime ministers in the BBC public poll online, with Churchill second.
Surely David Cameron only mentioned her as a precedent not as a blueprint.
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Wow! indeed Nick, they are so touchy
The thatcher babbies...inspired by guilt
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I think that it will be very interesting watching the aftermath of this speech. There has been an undertone of Thatcherism throughout the vague allusions which have been made about policy up until now, yet there has never been anything which could be summed up in a sound byte for the red tops, so it has been hard to gauge the opinion of the general public on this issue.
Now that Cameron has come out of the closet (so to speak) it will be interesting to see if his vague gestures towards working class families will still endear him to people feeling the pinch, especially when the idea of Thatcherism is identifiable immediately with poor social security.
Cameron has consistently said there are too many people out of work, if he can not convey his mission to change their aspirations effectively, he may well find that they all vote against him.
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Nick,
Thatcher is just a Conservative metaphor for "fixing the country after years of Labour failure".
Thatcher is toxic to hard-core Labour voters. (like a stake through the heart - they don't want to be taken down - but we have to get rid of Labour)
Hard core old-style Labour voters have come out in their droves on your blog for a change tonight - but if you notice they are here only to take a pop at Cameron. Almost none of them have anything positive to say about Labour or to support what Labour stands for.
Cameron is the man. Labour is slinking back to its militant past (Militant - we are going backwards to the 1980's in our political imagery tonight aren't we?)
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Thatcherism was Britain's flirtation with fascism ... the belief that a political elite are essential for running the country because democracy just throws up idiots who's hearts are in the right place, but dont really know how to manage a nation .... people forget that in 1997, Blair won a massive landslide because Thatcher and her acolytes had left the nation in such a nightmarish mess, that it's difficult now to remember how awful it was ... Cameron wants to go back to those days ... please God, NO !
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The Tories have too much yang. One merely needs to sit back and watch the bubble defalte of its own accord. The more they try to defend their position the more they'll pile on yang, so the wise Tories will try and hack Cameron down as the Republicans did with the ludicrous bail out plan. Of course, this will leave them in disarray as all their clever schemes and secret plotting unravels. This is what happens when you mortage your ego at a rate that reality can't afford to underwrite.
Alistair Darling is correct to reflect my earlier sentiment that government must connect with the people, and their calm and patient approach gets behind that. Ideoligical ranting and handwaving to the gallery is just so much rocking of the boat. Better to let go of all that and just coast along, developing from the ground up, making sure everything is joined together, and allowing success to unfold of its own accord.
Be like water, etcetera.
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Thatcher is toxic for the same reason that Hillary Clinton is. They have a lot of really committed supporters, but also a lot of people who REALLY don't like them. Winning elections isn't just about increasing your vote, it's about reducing the vote on the other side. Nothing would fire up Labour activists in 2010 like the Tories talking about Maggie.
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The more Maggie is mentioned in these tough economic times the more people will realise that there is hope for our future......................the hope that she delivered when this country last face a crisis of this magnitude.
Nick, keep mentioning Maggie............only by followig her policies once more will this country face a brighter future rather than the IMF style cap in hand bankrupcy alternative of Crash Boom and Bust Gordon!
I joined the Young Concervatives when I was 14 in 1978 when this country was, as it is now, on it's knees and it was because there was a "woman with a plan"...........
what a woman.........what a plan!
DC just needs to invoke that same spirit this country needed back then to overcome the difficulties created by Socialism.
So mention Maggie Maggie Maggie..........for her policies and fighting spirit.............for her revolution.............
Thats is what is needed again......except this time it wil be a "man with a plan"! ( the same plan please...........just pull out the Thatcher toolkit and apply resolutely!)
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Nick,
Your previous blog title was "Back to the future" - all based on a reference to Margaret Thatcher, taken completely out of context by yourself.
Your expanation is somewhat tangential to say the least - perhaps you could enlighten us as to what you actually meant.
Your credibility is evaporating by the day .....
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So now we know, the Old Etonian ex-spin docter is a fully fledged Thatcherite. We all know what happened to her. I think there will be thousands returning to the Labour fold as a result of his lack of judgement. They will be rejoicing throughout the land that his compassionate conservatism was, as many suspected, an elaborate sham
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I am not a member of any political party and even as a Scot I recognise the good that Mrs T did for the country esp in respect of the trade unions and I am a former union member.
Nick betrays his political leanings and obviously does not have the open mind that a correspondent should have - he should pack in and join the GB (i.e. Gordon Brown) fan club - a select few.
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Nick,
Remember when Gordon Brown invited (Mrs) Thatcher to Downing Street when he was riding high in the polls?
Labour didn't mind (Mrs) Thatcher then did they?!
Oh dear - the wheels are off the Labour wagon and their voters are coming out spitting as the party tries to cling to power.
Come on Derek Draper - and your Blog rebuttal unit...... anything positive to say about Labour at the moment?
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The thatcher patch is a dark concept
Cameron and co are Sooo out of touch
No surprise, you cant change the colour of thatcherism....its a wake up call to the whole nation......just say no to the tories, they cant change, never have and never will.
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It really just goes to show how stupid our political elite are.
In case it escaped anyone's attention, Thatcher was the one responsible for the demutualisation of our building societies - and look what has happened to them; the complete deregulation of our financial service sector, which paved the way for Brown and thus helped create the mess we are in today; and the total collapse of British manufacturing and resulting reliance on the service industry making us completely vulnerable to economic downturns.
Sadly, none of our political parties has a clue on what to do next, because they are all wedded to the cause - i.e. the free market system.
Labour used to be a party of the left - opposed to the market with an alternative ideology, but that changed with Blair, who turned Labour into another Tory party. Brown is a disaster because he thought he could get the city to play bull with his half-baked social agenda without significant reform. Cameron is a watered down Blairite and Clegg a watered down Cameron.
What a sad state of affairs!
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Thatcher, for all her faults, did what needed to be done. She deconstructed the UK economy and sowed the seeds for the period of economic growth that has now come to an end.
To bring the UK out of the debt fuelled recession we now face will take someone as equally determined. I doubt that Cameron has the guts to take it on, but I am sure that Britian cannot afford 4 more years of Labour.
Public borrowing is merely taxes that the government haven't got around to collecting yet. I saw an interesting statistic recently that taking into account PFI and public sector pensions along with the national debt each houshold in Britian now owes £67,000. It's going to take some serious cutbacks to reduce that deficit.
I hope for the sake of the country that we end up with a government that will face the problem head on rather than storing it up for fiture generations by hiding it 'off balance'
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Derek Barber shop #9
hmmm, rather to be a thatcher babby (sic) than a gordon goon.
Oh I do love to be beside the seaside.....
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WOW, you don't remember the fuss about a month or so then when Alex Salmond praised Thatch saying that "we didn't mind the ecconomic policies much" (i may be paraphrasing but that roughly was what he said.
We need a continuation of Thatcherism like we need another bank to fold.
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Is it not about time that Tories stopped leaning on the reputation of Thatcher and learned to stand on their own two feet?
For every one of the party faithful who gets dewy-eyed at the mere mention of her name, there are at least two victims of her vicious, divisive policies who will forever hold her in the utmost contempt.
For Cameron to compare himself to Thatcher is OK in my book. I don't need any more excuses not to vote Tory, either now or while I still have breath in my body.
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Wow! The mere mention of Margaret Thatcher really is toxic.
--------------
It's always been that way where I come from!
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Don't know about them but here's mine:
The problems with the British economy were down to management and workers fighting between each other. British managment was largely tired by that point in time and didn't have much to offer. The later boom was mostly asset stripping and opening up of the country to inward investment and products from Europe and Asia.
Today, the situation is similar because Britain's broken economic fundamentals still haven't been fixed. Just as Britian has reached a point where it could catapult forward the same asset stripping and financial engineering Tories are rising up to misrepresent themselves as the solution to problems they caused and sustained.
Britain needs to develop a better sense of looking forward, cooperation, and getting over its quarter to quarter mentality. The city has sucked talent from industry and laid waste to countless communities, but better quality business plans, solidarity in work and communities, and having the stretch to go the last yard can make that promise a reality.
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It seems to me that certain elements in the media have been taken in by the years of Labour spin, which claimed that "The Tories are more extreme than ever". The number of times Blair used to come out with that mantra - it became very tedious. Labour are allowed to move to the centre ground, but woe betide the Tories if they have the audacity to do the same! Shocking. We must never allow that to happen!
So David Cameron allows himself the luxury of mentioning the name of Margaret Thatcher. And now the media get all excited and think they have some kind of scoop: the Tories are taking us "back to the future"! Oh, come off it, can't you see the point DC was trying to make - comparing Callaghan's experience - leading us to that wonderful "winter of discontent" when Britain was a people's paradise, and working so swimmingly, as we all remember so well - with Mrs T's "novice" status. And disagree with her policies, you have to admit that the country could not have continued with the "Callaghan experience"! Just as it cannot continue with the "Brown experience".
You know, I wonder whether the BBC have now abandoned the whole concept of English comprehension which involves reading words in context. I notice this fad of charting the frequency of words used in speeches - the so-called "word cloud". Who gets paid a fortune to put that together?? For example, Cameron may have used the word "government" 30 times, but it is impossible to draw a conclusion about what he meant simply from the frequency of the use of the word. You have to look at what he was actually saying - IN CONTEXT. Is this now the new methodology of literary analysis? I mean, it completely undermines the English language, since many words can only be defined on the basis of context - e.g. rose = flower / got up? present = gift / now / in attendance / to introduce? and I could go on ad nauseam. Is this the level of education we have descended to in our society? Or perhaps we should be following the advice of the President of the Spelling Society!?!
I notice also that in her sorry evidence-free attempt to rebut David Cameron, Yvette Cooper seems to have a problem with comprehension. She says: "It's no good talking about reining in borrowing, then promising high speed rail links and tax cuts." But hang on... DC said that "?the right thing to do is NOT go ahead with a third runway at Heathrow but INSTEAD build a new high speed rail network?" So DC is saying he would be using existing money. Also he said: "WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN TAX CUTS PAID FOR BY RECKLESS BORROWING". Sorry to have to use upper case letters, but can't people see how absurd and deceitful Labour are?
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Mrs Thatcher set free entrepreneurial spirit. But smashed traditional industry by trying to change things too fast.
But she told Britain to forget the past and look to the future. Enough people listened to her to prevent bankruptcy.
Tony Blair told us to get in touch with our feelings.
Which made us guilty to call financial shysters and mafioso hoods unacceptable. But also improved male-female communication and eliminated a lot of prejudices for good.
Mr Cameron is saying: keep the good bits of both Thatcher and Blair. And add on the concept of 'different strokes for different folks'. Diversity, not uniformity.
A couple of years to probe whether this is window dressing or the real McCoy.
But he has caught a popular mood, that's for sure.......
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XCAnderson said most of what I'm thinking. New Labour is such a disaster I've been wondering who to vote for. But all its worst messes -- PFI, PPP, low income tax for high earners etc -- are just half-baked Tory policies anyway.
Thanks for reminding me how much worse Thatcher was. Now that the Lib Dems are following the half-baked Tory route too, I give up on the main parties. Time to vote Green.
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#20
Skippy, why do you luv the seaside so much
Does the fresh air blew between your flapping ears and cleanse your thatcher guilt
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24 CEH
Sorry - I'm being thick......... what are you saying Labour would do differently or at all as a positive agenda?
I personally think it is difficult to understand the Labour agenda. Two reasons:
1. The whole Labour conference was dedicated to inward looking and leadership issues
2. Gordon hasn't spelt out a vision. Hoon recently said there was no vision "just a series of measures"
You also say this:
"Today, the situation is similar because Britain's broken economic fundamentals still haven't been fixed"
Question......... if that is the case what have Labour been doing for 11 years?
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To logica_sine_vanitate (#25):
I could not have put it better myself. All your words on the tip of my tongue.
To reporters, including NR: report things in context and treat readers like intelligent beings!
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24 chuck
no answer mate, thats just too much gas!
I wouldn't hold a naked flame too close, you might enlighten too much and ZEN what will we do?
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Thatcherism... I'm going to tell my grand-children that we went through that for them!
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Well Blair continuously praised Thatcher and declared himself to be her natural heir. Brown has feted her and fawned over her in Downing Street.
Strange how I have never seen any criticism of their devotion to thatcher by the dregs of the dying socialist support on these pages.
Thatcher's mistake was being in power too long and losing touch with the people. Blair and Brown never ever had the right policies, but they were in touch for a few months after gaining power. They then cast off their socialist ideals to flirt with their own brand of fascism.
It is some kind of situation when it is the Tories saying that bankers must pay for their own mistakes and it is labour that is setting aside billions of hard earned tax to bail out billionaire bankers.
Labour has not been the party of the common person in the UK since the death of John Smith. Since then, labour have been nothing more than a crude and cruel malignant caricature of the twisted labour view of the old "nasty" tories.
That was a very good speech by Cameron today and even with the flaws that still exist in the tory policy portfolio, a Conservative Government under Cameron would be a masive improvement on the obscenity that is this disastrous, corrupt, incompetent labour maladministration.
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#31
Skippy.....blow...blow...blow
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#8
...and Labour is just a metaphor for "fixing the country after years of miss management by the Tories".
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Thatcher's success. A golden age. It shows what is possible if we let the economic expertise of the Conservative's run our economy, as opposed to the current jokers from the Labour party.
1979
Margaret Thatcher rides to power. "Labour isn't working" as the Conservative Party posters told voters at the time. With a nice picture of a big queue for the dole.
25,136,351 in work = 74% of the working age population
1,404,990 unemployed (looking for work but can't find it) = 5.2% of the working-age population
1983
The Conservative Party's medicine takes effect. Britain "started to work"
23,630,141 in work = 68% of the working-age population
3,023,117 unemployed = 11% of the working-age population
I'm looking forward to the same successful medicine being applied to the economy now.
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dorek braider 28
mmmm, nope, syntax is all wrong. but then it might be the huge chip on your shoulder that prevents you from using spell check?
(if your new laptop from oh lordy gordy has such a luxury.)
nope, it's because I know I'm safer here, away from you you think the sea eats the sun at night (well, thats my impression, judging by your juvenile mistrust of embracingf change, which your zengalian monk says us non labour supporters should do)
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Unlike David Cameron, Thatcher was NOT inexperienced, having been a Cabinet Minister in charge of Education (remembered for removing free school milk and closing more grammar schools than Labour's Shirley Williams) in Ted Heath's Government in the early 1970s.
Under her as PM, exchange control restrictions were lifted, legislation was passed in 1986 allowing the free for all on the Stock Market (the 'Big Bang'), the demutualisation of the now failing building societies and the implementation of legislation allowing them to borrow money from the money markets far in excess of the traditional source of depositors' funds and which is the primary cause of their downfall. A massive crash on the Stock Market occurred on Black Monday 1987 under Thatcher's watch and then on Black Wednesday in 1992 Cameron was the economic advisor to Norman Lamont when interest rates soared and the pound plummeted.
Has everyone forgotten that the Thatcherist Conservatives' economic policies are very much to blame for the current problems?
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I don't understand where are all the questions about the financial mess that is happening. All the questions about the reckless lending by the banks and building societies. The hedge funds short selling or buying companies on massively geared borrowing. How much money has the Tory party had from these companies.How many Tory MP's who where or are supported by the financial industry who didn't want any extra regulation. Is this why David doesn't want to look for reasons now.
Why isn't Nick or the BBC asking these questions?
I have voted Tory since 79 but the financial industry, that seems to own the Tory's, has now done for me once to many times.
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35 Boilerplated
Nope - I think you meant to say Labour is a metaphor for "Tax and Spend".
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derek b**ker
you might as well whistle down the wind. we shall not be moved. scroungers dole cheats and layabouts, get em sent up north, apparently its a lifestyle choice that I fund through my taxes. NO MORE! If I can pull working a 60 hour week (one for a LA, the other for a respectable retail store) as an amputee, the lazy so an so's can get some work done too! lazy shysters, they think its all over, it will be, come 2010!
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Post 36 balhamu.
Thatchers reforms were about the LONG TERM success fo the economy.
So please quote the average employment and unemployment rates for all the 20 years BEFORE Thatcher and for all the 20 years after Thatcher. I think you'll find that more people have been in EMPLOYMENT on average every year in the 20 years after Thatcher than the 20 years before. Job done!
But more that that the Thatcher revolution wasn't about unemployment figures it was about prosperity.
By getting rid of old unionised inductries and encouraging new, exciting, dynamic industries this country was able to craft a new way of earning a BETTER living in a global world market. Consequently we are all far more prosperous than we were in 1979. Job done!
I could go on on and on and on!
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#33
re Blair and brown fating Thatcher
...and haven't they both caught the flax for doing so, and then someone suggest that the country give her a state funeral...!
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Interesting that he chose at a time of economic uncertainty to mention Thatcher when there was very high unemployment and high poverty. Mind you they do worship the ground she walks on.
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I've been saying for most of this year that Britain has its wires crossed, and has clung to the worst aspects of America and Japan, while it should be seizing a positive vision, consensus, and the long-term. In all that time it was misunderstood, ignored, or mocked by the Tories in here. Now that grasshopper has changed his tune, will I see an avalanche of apology? I doubt it, but I'm glad he's signed up to the programme.
The thing Cameron still doesn't really seem to get is understanding and taking it into the heart of the Tory party. Stuff like this isn't just words on a screen but has quality and meaning behind it. The Tories can run around like headless chickens parroting their leader because it sounds cool and looks like a winner, but to deliver you have to have some smarts, stones, and a truckload of patience.
C'mon, try to let go a little more.
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36 Balhamu
You cheeky rascal - you forgot to say that "Labour still isn't working"............
At the height of the 1985/6 recession there were about three million people unemployed and a million on sickness benefit. i.e. circa 4 million
By 2007 there were around 900,000 unemployed and 2.8 million on sickness benefit. i.e. circa 3.7 million
That is a lot of billions of Sure-Start pounds spend on getting 300,00 people back to work..........
.........although the number of people claiming single parents benefits has risen from circa 500,000 to about 850,000 i the same period.......
So after 11 years of Labour and an almost unprecedented period of economic growth, the number of economically inactive people in the country is........ wait for it......... drum roll........ THE SAME.
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That was the most polished speech, beautifully timed, with excellent humour and just the right amount of emphasis. He obviously thinks he is going to be the next Prime Minister, hence his Thatcher reference.
However, I worry that it was too polished, too well-timed and too rehearsed. It was absolutely brilliant, but I am left worried that, after experiencing a similar well-rehearsed, perfectly-timed talk in his constituency, that he will not venture outside his chosen path (to leadership) and will not listen to problems he does not want to deal with - the plight of frozen British state pensioners abroad for one example. That is a subject which will not bring in the votes. Far too boring.
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The 'world cloud' analysis may have some value if you know what you are looking for.
For example, in their respective conference speeches, Brown used the word 'country' 29 times and Cameron used it 25 times.
The word 'Britain' was used by Brown 18 times but Cameron did not mention it even once.
I am not entirely certain what inference, if any, could be drawn from that but I suspect that the absence of the word 'Britain' from Camerons speech accurately reflects the deep ambiguity of the current political situation in the so-called 'United Kingdom'.
Stretching it a bit, one could say that Brown appears to be very keen to keep the UK together, whereas Cameron may not see it as a priority because the Tory support is virtually all centred around England and is more-or-less non-existent in Scotland and Wales.
PS. Don't ask me about NI, something I always suspected, that we (English) taxpayers have been showering the place with money for decades, has been recently confirmed - some £4000 per head per annum at present. Grotesque.
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2. cherkoff
Derek Draper Cyborg Infestation Detected
Gosh they are even sat waiting for new posts. 1 got in at no 2.
Shields up
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34. derekbarker
Bed time derek... its a school night
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#37 skid pad
Embracing change? what change, did you listen too the speech, there was nothing new in that tripe.....same old.....same old....tories
Look, do you have a problem with the fact that there are more jobs.
Do you have a problem that the mean boss can no longer impose a rate of one pound per hour.
Do you have a problem, that year after year school exam results are higher
Do you have a problem that state schools now! produce more and more university students
Do you have a problem that the public sector is working well for Britain
Yes...you do have several problems, plus the fact that your stuck in an age of desperate confused tory trip trap.
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What absolute drivel spouted by the Tories, trying to reinvent themselves. Margaret Thatcher may have taken steps like 'modernising' trades unions relations, selling off the family heirlooms like the utilities and the likes, but those times will not be repeated. The Tories have nothing new to offer and will not have any effective measures to improve the current down turn. They will only support the fat cats who created this reliance on debt culture that Britain and the West is now stuck with. Thatcher did not believe in British industry, she preferred a service economy model, and Thatcher also did not believe in 'society'; which is why to some extent we now find ourselves in 'broken Britain' (as described by Cameron). However, Cameron does not have a clue of how to go about fixing it.
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"Wow! The mere mention of Margaret Thatcher really is toxic."
And so it should be! After what she did to this country, I despise her. All the "social breakdown" Cameron talked about - Thatcher caused it. Labour have tried there best to fix that. All the "economic breakdown" we have now - Thatcher caused it with her deregulation and uber privatization policies. Labour continued with those policies as well.
Cameron may well support "One Nation Toryism", but this mention of Thatcher, and the fact he has been associated with the "Conservative Way Forward" group, the Thatcherite wing of the party, scares me...
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#41
Send them up North?
What happened to the 48 hours work directive.......hope your not putting anybody else in danger now!
If cameron gets his way there wont be any local authority.....think twice...think thrice
Look, if you want to talk about football, then fine, its a good sport....especially when the reds play.
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#42
I thought she got elected in 1979 saying 1.4 million unemployed were too many (that's what the dole queue in the "Labour isn't working' poster represented).
It rose to over 3 million.
The Conservatives were working by doubling the size of that dole queue in the picture.
I would agree with you that some of the changes made by Thatcher have helped economic growth in the long-term. I'm no left-wing idealogue.
But I would argue the price paid by the 'shock therapy' in terms of unemployment, poverty, social breakdown, inequality, poor public services and its long-term impacts were too high.
The problems that Labour are dealing with now stem from that. Long-term worklessness and its associated problems that began with the decimation of industry in the 1980s. Deregulation in the 1980s entrenched City interests and have made re-regulation very difficult.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Margaret Thatcher btought a bit of realism to the country but eventually oercooked the recipe. I doubt with hindsight that David Cameron will make the same mistake. One thing ius certain, Most os us do not want a furher dose of Gordon Brown.
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#50
Carrot......carrion....catharsis.......right wing nutter.........
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Margaret Thatcher likened the British economy to good housekeeping and stated the need to balance the books.
Not a bad thing when you look at the alternative and the financial mess the country is now in.
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Actually, I first coined the phrase "Broken Britain" on this blog just before the Tories picked it up and ran with it. The thing they don't get is that I meant the arrogant management culture and greedy consumerism that's the legacy of Thatcherism and still remains to be dealt with in spite of the CBI and Tories dragging their feet.
The Tories have their wires crossed, and more of the same will just reinforce the broken fundamentals. It's the last thing Britain needs if it's to get over itself and seize a better future. That they don't get this just confirms in my mind they need at least another 20 years in opposition to change their mindset and become something more in tune with reality.
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#46
re my comments on the impact of Thatcher - I'm not sure unemployment every got below the levels seen in 1979 throughout her time in office. She was elected on a promise to get people into work.
re 'Labour still isn't working' - that's your view. Not my view. So I don't say it. You can if you want to. It's not cheeky at all. I was making no comment on the current Government anyway.
I won't look up the figures you use and take you at your word. I know from experience I can normally trust the right-wing posters on this site :)
Do you believe that the shock therapy that Thatcher implemented had any negative long-term effects? Or was it all good.
Perhaps on creating the 'culture of worklessness' and many of the social problems we see today (long-term unemployed and sickness, crime, drugs, teenage pregnancy, poverty, single parenthood).
Or are these new problems that have emerged since 1997 and are Labour's fault?
Who's baby is the 'broken society'?
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19. maas101
" I saw an interesting statistic recently that taking into account PFI and public sector pensions along with the national debt each houshold in Britian now owes ?67,000."
Heck! I knew it was bad..I just didn't think it was that bad! I have previously said that Brown has stored up debt that our grand-children will have to pay....these figures mean it will probably be their children...
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Thatcher is considered 'toxic' yet she won three general elections and was never voted out by the British electorate.
(Amusingly, the same goes for one Anthony Charles Lynton Blair).
Brown has presided economically over the past 11 years of the (self-described) Age of Irresponsibility and never held a general election, yet some believe that he is 'palatable'.
Why not ask the people?
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Hmmmm....
Once again a lot of first-time posters supporting the government and/or opposing Brown.
Draper Drones must be enjoying plenty of overtime....
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#52 - pressure1: "What absolute drivel spouted by the Tories, trying to reinvent themselves."
Have you ever wondered why Labour had to "reinvent itself" to become "New Labour"? It is because, for all her faults and failings (of which there were many), Mrs T. had actually won the argument. If that was not the case, then why did Labour need to change? The whole "New Labour" project (despite the party's protestations to the contrary) is clear and unequivocal evidence that the Conservatives must have done something right during their 18 years in power - which Labour could not fail to acknowledge. And no amount of insults and contemptuous language can hide this glaring fact.
It is ridiculous and hypocritical to condemn the Tories for wanting to change, while trying to defend "New" Labour. And if you are not defending New Labour, then perhaps you would prefer the older variety with its endless industrial action, 27% inflation, brain drain and rubbish piling up in the streets?
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I agree with "Cherkoff". Cameron is out of his depth. It's pity because there are some remarkably dull fish in the tank at the moment. However, who really wants another visitation from the Tories?
Labour did what Labour normally does - the Attlee government withstanding - promises the earth and delivers nothing. I can't help thinking that the Liberal Democrats are missing a trick here. With Brown ailing and Cameron with all the savoir faire of a shop mannequin, surely now is the time for them to offer something. Hope? A third way?
I also agree with what a previous commentator said about Thatcher being a 'conviction politician'. Like her or loathe her, I loathed her, you did know where she stood - it was usually on our fingers.
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Cameron's speech was both wide ranging and pertinent. I do not understand why, out of everything (Cameron) discussed, Robinson (NR) is whittering on about the "mention" of Thatcher.
Why and with whom does NR think this will "cause a fuss"? Is he in some state of denial that we are now, economically, all children of Thatcher?
What on earth is his point? Alas, he is beginning to sound like an embittered, past it, fool.
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evanevans8 @39,
Assuming you are bone fide poster, check out Guido Fawkes' comment about Hedge fund donors to Nu Labour:
"Paul Myners is a director of the hedge fund manager GLG, which with $25 billion under management is one of europe's biggest hedge fund managers. It was until recently 10% owned by Lehmans. Paul Myners gave money to Gordon Brown's leadership campaign and he also gave money to Gordon Brown's think-tank the Smith Institute. Gordon rewarded him with appointments to the Treasury's pension review.
Derek Tullet has also given huge amounts of money to the Labour Party. Tullet's broking firm specialises in servicing hedge funds who want to go short stocks and derivatives.
Gilad Hayeem of the Lehman Brothers backed $2 billion hedge fund, Marble Bar Asset Management (Cayman), contributed to Hilary Benn's deputy leadership campaign.
There are plenty more "evil speculators" who have backed the Labour Party. Just in case you are wondering why Labour is silent..."
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Same economic situation for an incoming Cameron as Thatcher, but quite probably worse... remember when Thatcher came to power North Sea oil and gas were coming on stream ? no such luck this time. In this dire situation, a leader who inspires and energises is a pre-requisite. Brown inspiring? Energising? I don't think so.
I remarked to a friend who knows more than I about, not only economic history but industry and global finance, the other day that it would take at least 10 years to get back to the same economic situation of May 1997. He said "No. I think you mean 1960".
Those who have relied on public money which doesn't exist, those who are irresponsible personally or financially... be afraid, be very afraid. I'm afraid the wolf and the perfect storm have gatecrashed together and the party is very over.
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Thatcher was a disaster for this country, in the short term she ticked all the Tory boxes but we are still living with the horrendous results of her marred policies. Her misinterpretation of Adam Smith's theories led to policies such as deregulation of the financial systems (look where that has got us now), the destruction of our energy resources (coalmines), rundown of railways, sales of council houses to those who could not really afford them (toxic debt), decimation of an admirable school meals system leading to cafeteria meals and obesity, poll tax, I could go on and on. Oh we have a a lot to thank her for!
So Tory Boy David panders to the Tory faithful and he has 'A Plan', well so did Baldrick and look where that got Blackadder. God help us.
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Surely Nick, Cameron actually compared Gordon Brown to Jim Callaghan not himself to Margaret Thatcher?
The comparison with Thatcher was elsewhere in his speech talking about reform - social rather than economic. The nod towards 'sound finance' was trying to remind the party of eternal Tory truths.
Cameron's speech will be talked about a long time after Brown's speech has been forgotten. Oh, but Brown's speech is already forgotten, isn't it?
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#67
Remind me what the current estimate of the UK exposure to toxic debt, all owed by private companies and induviduals?...
The UK's PSB doesn't look so bad after all...!
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61 Balhamu
Feel free to look up the figures...
You were a little cheeky in your previous post, one so even handed as you, appeared to only have a pop at the Conservative governments of the past. I was just adding to the picture you painted - cos Mrs Thatcher on her own is ancient history ;-)
Did Mrs Thatcher have some sort of impact on the world today? At the risk of sounding Zen - if a butter fly flaps it's wings......
Of course her policies had an impact. The positive out weigh the negatives though. She turned the country round so that it was economically viable.
The logical order is to fix the economy first and then use the proceeds to improve peoples lives - so Mrs Thatcher started the process of reform.
The economic benefits of that turn around have been available to Blair and Brown to fix the downside of the 'bad medicine' we had to take during Mrs Thatchers time. Unfortunately the Labour government have wasted the economic inheritance.
Lets face it Labour have not fixed these things you have pointed out:
" the 'culture of worklessness' and many of the social problems we see today (long-term unemployed and sickness, crime, drugs, teenage pregnancy, poverty, single parenthood)."
Cameron is coming in and saying that he will now pick up the ball and finish the job - he will deliver where Blair and Brown have failed to follow on from Mrs Thatchers lead.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nick,
What do you say about the Guardian report on 12 Sep 2008 about Bottler inviting Margaret Thatcher on 13 Sep to discuss 'the current downturn'?
It appears that your 'toxic' lady is actually a financial adviser to Bottler - you kept that very quiet.
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#46 - jonathan_cook
"So after 11 years of Labour and an almost unprecedented period of economic growth, the number of economically inactive people in the country is........ wait for it......... drum roll........ THE SAME."
Excellent. And in in the same period, the number of people employed in the public sector has increased by about 3 million. So the workforce in the real economy has shrunk by ............... wait for it ........... drum roll .......... 3 million!
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Thank goodness we only have one vote each. Come 2010, or preferably well before, as Gordon Brown gets his gift wrapped red card, where will the rent-a-mob anti Tory brigade be then? Curious how many folk have crawled out from under their stones, having a pop at the Conservative party, doing their utmost to perpetuate a mis-guided campaign against the Thatcher legacy. Desperate folk resort to desperate means. Why not actually listen to David Camerons speech and then leave support of The Labour Party to contributors that compose logical arguments. You too, dererkbarker but try and make some sense mate!!
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#72 tcrooks3843
What speech?
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#72
Yes, Browns speech probably will be forgotten - probably already has - a lot has happened in the time since (who said a week in politics is a long time, heck a couple of day at the moment feels like a month), Cameron's speech will be remembers for one of two reasons - for either being totally irrelevant considering the abyss the country is falling into OR remembered simply due to the fact that everyone isn't having to concentrate on their bank accounts, jobs and dare I say their investments - crisis over...
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The BBC sunk to a new low today when it comes to bias.
Last week there was blanket coverage of the labour conference, fawning over Brown, and no criticism of any sort with their interviews with labour politicians.
This week, they lied and misrepresented everything that was said during the tory conference.
To top it all, now that The Sun newspaper has seemingly switched allegiance from Labour to the tories in tomorrow morning's papers, Newsnight refused to show the morning's papers at the end of their show.
It's obscene. I hope the BBC gets abolished in 2010 and all the license money diverted to Channel 4.
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Margaret Thatcher recently wins a poll as "the greatest Tory hero of all time", but Nick says the mere mention of her name "really is toxic".
I expect Gordon Brown wishes he were as toxic!
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77# threnodio
The inactivity rate for people of working age was 20.8 per cent for the three months to July 2008, The number of economically inactive people of working age is 7.86 million.
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Well I for one would welcome another leader like Lady Thatcher... if only to drive the final nail in the coffin of the unions and destroy them once and for all.
The next Tory government will need to have stong and principled leaders like Lady Thatcher to again clear up the complete mess made by the labour louts, to rebuild the economy, re-introduce civil and social values and bring the public services back upto scratch. And i believe Mr Cameron will show himself to be such a leader.
I think the mere mention of the iron lady is a good thing, and whilst i applaud Mr Cameron's efforts in changing and modernising the party, some of the core values of the Thatcher years are still much needed today.
Well done David... Roll on the next general election
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Nick, the "howls of protest" have not just arisen from your wrong footing on the paws of dogmatic thatcherites. Anyone who saw Cameron's speech today (whether they like or dislike it), will understand that you have twisted a one liner on governing competency into the moment Cameron came knocking on the Tory trap door (swing back to core vote strategy). Yes there was a lot of trumpet blowing for daily mail readers, but he got them playing to the other team's tunes! This was the speech where Cameron interwove the views of the Tory party faithful with his modernizing agenda, ie. not him taking a Hague/IDS/Howard lurch to the right.
I am not yet 100% won over due to their position on Europe and it was unfortunate for Dave to use the "man with the plan" line. However you have failed to do the speech justice and your readers a good service by taking the speech out of context. And on the subject of toxic Maggie, the media and the public need to move on (both those who love and hate her), she splits people like marmite on toast not nuclear waste. The former should have decomposed by now; the latter will hold back British Politics for many years due to entrenched views. Brown buys her imagery with cups of tea at chequers and media loves it, Cameron mentions it once in a speech and the media says he is a wolf in sheep?s clothing.
I say this because; I actually think Cameron is getting a raw deal here. Politics is based on momentum and the media clearly want to sell newspapers and make things interesting by levelling the playing field. This style no substance jibe has done Cameron lasting damage, but if you ignore the 15 sec news sound bite package and read the speeches, it is all there. You should not expect a list of everything 2 years before an election, because the media and other parties will tear it all up...but that is the game everyone plays. Secondly, this pragmatism is more Tory in nature than any ideological distortion Thatcher induced to it, and it?s the right direction. As for the label of "spin", Browns "leak" to the BBC an hour before the papers go to press on Cameron?s speech, that he is to undergo a cabernet reshuffle, says it all.
From a dissatisfied voter on the talk of the town still being the clowns of the political circus that toured a generation ago, only I don't find it that funny any more nick.
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#69
Perhaps it got past the moderators due to them already having got wind of her demise and they were too busy putting the bunting out...
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If Mrs T was that bad, how come she won three stonking election mandates and didn't actually lose at the polls? OK, she got unpopular towards the end, but where are all the millions of people who consistently voted her in - and you can't tell me it was because the (old) Labour party was so c**p.
Seems to me that it's become unfashionable to admit to being a Maggie fan...
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There are many 'toxic' comments on here which should have been moderated. 'Right wing nutter' is one such. I thought insults weren't allowed....but I could be wrong.
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In case people haven't noticed we haven't had a Conservative Government since 1997.
That means 11 years of a Labour Government.
If everything that Thatcher did during her time in power was that bad why hasn't Labour reversed it? They've had long enough.
But no they've actually.....
loosened control on the banks even further than Thatcher did AND tried to persuade the rest of Europe to do the same,
we still have the same trade union laws (maybe a few minor adjustments here and there),
we still have hospitals and schools closing even though we are building new ones but some of those new wards lay empty because the NHS can't afford to open them
we still have dirty hospitals,
we still have long waiting lists (but they are massaged)
we still have soaring crime,
our kids leave education with huge debts thanks to LABOUR introducing fees
we have families in debt thanks to the wrong calculation of tax credits. I'm still repaying mine TWO YEARS later.
We are paying double council tax and will soon have bin tax and fly tipping will increase as a result
and...
We have more millionaires now than we ever did and
according to the latest charity reports we have more people in poverty now than when Labour came to power
We also have more bureaucrats and state snoopers than ever with all the red tape that goes with them.
I've been a Labour supporter all my voting life but no more.
Labour is supposed to look after the working class but doesn't. Like all politicians it eventually cozies up to the rich and powerful.
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BBC Breakfast 'news'........ is laughable
The man who could be our next Prime Minister sketches out his vision for the world and there is no analysis or reaction on todays 'news' bulletins.
There is not even a round up of all three main party conferences and their relevance to the current economic problems or future for the country.
........ luckily there is time, however, for a bit on hippos and also student initiation ceremonies involving alcohol and carrier bags.
Most BBC news coverage and topical analysis is good - if not excellent. Day in and day out BBC Breakfast 'news' is largely dross.
If you flick between the BBC and GMTV in the morning there is little difference.
Smug idiots like Turnbull making 'Christmas cracker level' jokes.
BBC: Please sack the Breakfast 'news' team and replace them with some journalists.
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77 threnodio
Good point - when you add in the explosion of new government posts - the government record is lamentable.
Gordon uses phrases like 'prudence' and 'affordable' - but that is clearly a joke.
QUESTION: If we keep removing people from the economically active portion of the British workforce at the same rate, on what date will the entire tax burden fall on a single electrician called Colin?
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Good to see my tax being spent wisely
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arquebus@ 88
I don't see much wrong with calling somebody a nutter ... that other bit, though, yes I see your point, that is a little bit insulting.
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Tell you what Nick,
If people object to you taking a line of a speech out of its context and highlighting it...
Why don't you start a whole new blog focusing on it even more...
Pathetic and transparent...
Top slicing -- bring it on -- and keep it going until the final, remaining, thin, rotten sliver can be dumped in to the bin of socialist history.
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After months of Tory attack dogs and wannabes upsetting the Labour folks in here and driving regular folks away, one measely headline and swimming in molten lava for a while may help them reflect on better standards of discussion. Personally, I'm more interested in seeing better policies and a fairer society over the long-term. Getting sucked into arguing and more of the same bad attitude is a distraction as Peter Mandelson sagely comments.
An interesting parallel between Steve Jobs and Gordon Brown is on the BBC front page today. Apple is making a stand for better quality and affordable music while the forces of yesterday are crying poverty and trying to arm twist them into raising royalties in an expanding market. Gordon Brown's effort to overcome the CBI and their Tory pals digging their heels in over corporate governance and fair wages, and their latest wheeze of trying to stage a Thatcherite coup is just the same game with different players.
I was waiting for Cameron's mask to slip during his speech but didn't expect it would be this easy. The Thatcherite 'tell' is all folks needed to see for the bubble to burst and pigeons come home to roost. The Tory party remains unfit for government. It's going to take at least another parliament for individual members to get a clue, a decade for the party to get a clue, and a generation for their support in the country to get a clue.
The short cut is the long road.
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Dear Nick
It is absolutely right that Thatcher is TOXIC, the women was a discrace to Britain, economically this women with the help of her family business and commercial interests, caused more damage to this country than two world wars ever did.She set families against families Commuities against law and order, and had spies in Unions to break them, even one of them became a Governemt minister.
No sir no tears should ever be spent over this women, she is the person who wrecked Britain and turned it into shambles it is now, she was the start of the ROT.
Just look at the family and what it is invovled in
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She started the rot??
Absolute drivel , she sorted a financial MESS created by the previous incompetent Labour Government .
Yes , it was a hard medecine to take at the time but it set up a better financial situation for the country, and as usual certain individuals made a mint.
It was Tony Blair that admired her so much , shortly followed by Gordon Brown inviting her to tea and of course sorting out a state funeral on the ladies demise.
we have suffered 11 years of incompetence from this bunch , Mrs T was 18 years ago, so stop blaming her .
Responsibility has moved on, we have an illegal war in Iraq ,costing trillions another in Afghanistan costing trillions , not to mention the cost in human life.
That 'prudent' chancellor backed both and sold OUR gold cheap.
BBC IMPARTIAL??
The BBC would'nt recognise impartiality if it bit it on the backside.
Time to get rid of the licence fee, why should we pay for a Labour Party Political Broadcast every time we watch a news or hit this website?
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I cannot understand what led Cameron to start trying to bring Thatcher into 2008 politics, she has her place in history and hopefully that is where she will stay. Will he try it again - not unless he is mad.
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95:
Instead of constantly sniping at David Cameron and his shadow cabinet why not put down some policy thoughts of your own that he could consider. After all he will become P.M. in 2010 whether you like it or not. At the same time we could tell you what we think of your ideas. You might be pleasantly surprised.
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To those who blame Thatcher for the state of the UK today...
You are effectively saying that a decade of labour governemnt have been completely ineffectual. (I would disagree, as they have clearly been positively harmful).
However, as with all old grudges, why stop with Thatcher? She came to power because of the damage that jim callaghan did.
So why not hark back blame him and his labour supporters?
Heck, why not go back to Heath.. then Wilson...
It is typical for socialists to deny reponsibility for anything they don't like, and their proposed solution is always the same - more socialism...
And socialists don't respond to debate because they are driven by the blind following of the writings of those that they consider their 'betters'.
The solution to socialism is education and self-respect - that is why socialists (whatever they say) do all in their power to withhold these things from and supress these things among the masses.
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So Gordon is finally about to have his reshuffle! But contrary to all the talk of "an exciting new team" it's just going to be about replacing Ruth Kelly. He can't move Darling because that would freak the markets and he can't move Miliband because that would provoke open civil war in the party. Just like last year, Gordon lets the speculation get out of hand and has to back down.
"Would you like your deckchair on the port or starboard side of the Titanic sir?"
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#74
It wasn't cheeky at all. Thatcher was elected in 1979 to reduce unemployment (at least thats what the election literature implied). She did the opposite and doubled it. And the shock therapy set in train a number of economic (unrestrained, unregulated capitalism) and social problems (impacts of long-term unemployment concentrated in certain communities). These policies also caused a cumulative £320 billion current deficit in the public finances (to pay for unemployment) which sucked up the proceeds of selling state assets and the North Sea Oil revenues, rather than using these to invest in infrastructure and things that are positive for long-term growth rather than things (long-term unemployment) that are detrimental.
You think the same solutions that Thatcher had would work in 2010 where they failed in 1979-1997 (retreat the welfare state, encourage wealth inequality as a matter of policy, encourage people to take more responsibility for themselves, if only people married everything would be ok)? Cameron is not saying anything new to my mind.
When he talks of the broken society, he's talking about social problems that the previous government created, as a price well worth paying for implementing their economic policies. These are quite intractable problems, and the current government have had some success (though nowhere near enough) at solving them. But solutions take time.
He'll get elected though, you've no need to worry on that score.
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The problem as I see it with Nick Robinson's post (and in the first sentence too), with zero qualification was ill advised. The suggestion that the mention of Mrs Thatcher's name was "toxic" was an invitation to people to write prejudicial statements one way or the other, not to encourage debate.
As for the rest of the BBC coverage, five live was disgracefully prejudiced IMHO and 10 /10 to Michael Gove who gave Peter Allen what he deserved. (You have either been asleep at the back of the class or you have been sucking lemons)
As for the farcical focus group of 10 people, where every comment was prejudicial, one can on laugh at the lack of impartiality. IIRC some of the voters said they would vote Conservative , but we never go a word about their thoughts.
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I expect Dave will now be hastily putting Mrs T back in her box after this brush with the 'marmite effect'.
It's informative to put aside the spactacle of Dave's speech and consider some of the language :
" In this togethor " " Broken Society " etc. are all pleas to solidarity.
" Man with a plan " - an allusion to centrist ideology
acknowledgement that the credit problems experienced by banks are due to "failure of the market"
All of this would be met by derision from Mrs T.
Is Dave aiming to be a back door socialist ?
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Poor Gordon...
We had the AYE team under Blair, who moved around more chairs than kids at a birthday party, as none seemed to fit the job. Then Peeraged off, sacked of disgraced.
(Some of the disgraced ones got a castle in Northern Ireland).
Then with Poor Gordon with only half his elected MP's to choose from identifys Labours B team. Sadly still not up to the job.
Now it's down to the C team, Dennis Skinner as Chancellor?
RIP
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Dear Nick
What appears to be a reaction to Thatcher is in fact a legacy of ineffectual Political leaders since the unscrupulus Lloyd Gearge,
There has not been a decent Prime Minister Leading this country for as long as i can remember, only One was, in the right place at the right time and that was SIR WINSTON CHURCHILL, The world and especially Europe, owes HIM a great vote of thanks, because when our backs were against the Altantic Ocean he stood firm,
He is and will always be the MAN who stood up to be counted and the man who stood up for the British people, and not one of them since has put Briatin First, even though,
Churchill initiated the EU, along with Spaak, Retinger, Sandys, and Bernard, with American Money and the Marshall paln.
It is still America that calls the tune, and Brown has Stated , ITS AMERICA FAULT WE ARE IN THIS CRISIS AND THAT IS THE FIRST TIME HE HAS SAID THE RIGHT THING IN ALL HIS POLITICAL CAREER.
Cameron cannot afford to be Linked to Thatcher, he has to make his own way, because everything stated here is about the past, and we need a future, and a politician who puts Britains future First, and not Europes.
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Howls of protest? About the great leaderenne? Hardly. One of the twentieth century's greatest icons does not invoke howls of protest form tory supporters she invokes the respect any retired politician would regardless of political colour or creed.
When the Spendaholic Gordon Brown finally realises he's not welcome here what will be his legacy? A car crash of a banking system. A mountain of public sector debt. Not a single infrastructure project. Windfarms for which there is no planning approval. Higher chil poverty than when he started to try reduce it. A wider gap between rich and poor. A Bank of England without any gold reserves. A labyrinthine taxation structure. More boom and more bust than we've ever had before. A discredited set of golden rules. A discredited Tripartite structure. A busted private pension system. PFI hospitals which were built to the wrong specifcations and will have to be knocked down. (oh, yes!)
My word, he's done a lot in such a short space of time.
Now about this legacy there really are howls of protest. Justifiably.
Call an election.
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Drowning men clutching at straws springs to mind with all Labour's attempts to introduce the spectre of Thatcherism. Nu labour is dead in the water , accept it. Labour has always been afraid of giving the people the right to think for themselves. Put the frighteners on with allusions to some Labour perceived nightmare which never happened, all Thatcher did was destroy the obscene power of the unions and get rid of the something for nothing culture that Nu Labour has brought back in an attempt to build themselves a power base of dependent voters who live off the rest of the community.
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*Loving* the way that you [probably correctly] feel the need to spell out that DC isn't the son of MT.
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If Thatcher is so toxic, then why did Brown invite her to Downing Street and was happy to be pictured with her outside it?
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WAKE UP NICK!!!!!!!
THESE ACTORS WHO WORK ON BEHALF OF THE ELITE FAMILIES WHO OWN THE CENTRAL BANKS,IMF,WORLD BANK ETC.. ARE TAKING US DOWN THE DRAIN...
MONEY HAS ALWAYS BEEN A SCAM WHETHER WOODEN TALLY STICKS ,CLAY TABLETS, METAL COINS,PAPER, OR NOW DIGITS IN A SCREEN !!!!!
IN LESS THAN 4 YEARS WE HAVE THE NORTH AMERICAN UNION TAKING PLACE, CANADA, USA AND MEXICO JOIN TOGETHER WITH A NEW CURRENCY...
THIS WAS WRITTEN ABOUT BY KARL MARX IN THE 1800'S AND H G WELLS IN THE OPEN CONSPIRACY WRITTEN IN THE 1920'S..
KIND REGARDS NOMOREFAKENEWS
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The name of Thatcher is such anathema to the Tories desperate to get elected because they know in their hearts that the 'nasty party' showed its true colours under her rule. There is no doubt that the roots of the so called 'broken society' were formed and nutured during her reign, and came to fruition under the Major years. State funeral? more like cheering crowds lining the route!!
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You may be correct about the 'mention thatcher and get some publicity' idea.
Personally I don't think it would be a good idea to mention thatcher too much if he wants broad support at the next election.
Lots of people down south did very nicely out of her. But up north there are still some very raw nerves about the mass unemployment and the oppression of the miners and their communities during the miners strike.
Memories may be fading. Many people may be starting to feel things under Brown are so bad they will think the unthinkable and vote tory. But reminding them of thatcher would make about as much sense as reminding German Jewish voters about how good a job Hitler did.
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I see the Tory tub thumpers still haven't learned their lesson. It's only morning and the political spaghetti and snit throwing has started again. One would think that self-styled ambassadors of a "changed party" would be more in tune with the rhetoric. The collective Tory performance looks like a bullet and ballot box campaign from where I'm sitting. They might want to rethink that before "Tory" becomes a byword for "terrorist", "criminal", and "mentally ill".
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Margaret Thatcher takes the credit for all that is considered to have been right in the 80s decade and takes the blame for everything which is thought to be wrong. But it must be remembered she relied quite rightly on experienced expert advisers and supporters such as Keith Joseph and that her economic policies were seen at the time to resemble 19th century liberalism and the free market philosophies of 100 years before.
In my view one of the main the casualties (no pun intended) of free market economics was the NHS, apart from the many nationalised industries and perhaps most manufacturing industry in this country. Everything, whether services, retail or manufacturing, had to show a profit... a large profit to be considered successful.
When Blair became PM in 1997, he too relied on experienced expert advisers....
It is too simplistic to say Cameron is looking backwards in bringing Thatcherism into his closing conference speech. Margaret Thatcher was a highly astute politician and to be admired as such. He could well be advised to study her techniques rather than remind us of her policies.
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By way of comparison:-
If association with Thatcher is deemed toxic then surely association with Brown must be what, lethal? suicidal?
Thatcher did many good things and was liked by many. You cant say that about Brown.
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A speech full of promises but no mention of "how" the change will take place. Cameron talks as if he can fix the problems with a wave of a magic wand.
And how people can lay the blame for the current financial mess at the feet of Gordon Brown is beyond me.
I'm no fan of Labour but a few people need to look beyond the hollow words before proclaiming the arrival of the Messiah.
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#110
As others have mentioned (and NR says in his original article), Thatcher's brand is considered "toxic" by the Conservative hierachy as she polarises opinion and is considered by many to represent feral capitalism with low regulation, high poverty, tax-breaks for the rich and broken and neglected public services.
Painting himself as returning to the days of Thatcher will be unlikely to win Cameron many friends among the voters he needs to pick up at the next election i.e. those in the North and Midlands who really suffered from Thatcherism. She is toxic to the project of getting Northern votes. It will energise the Home Counties heartlands, but they hardly need any energising to kick the present government out.
This is how the Conservative hierachy think. Thatcher is "toxic to the project" rather than "toxic" per se.
Inviting Thatcher to No 10, other than being a lovely gesture to an old lady who many in this country admire (well, in the South of the country), symbolised the fact that Gordon Brown accepted the post-Thatcherite consensus that Blair did.
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Charles_E_Hogwash @114 wrote:
"They might want to rethink that before "Tory" becomes a byword for "terrorist", "criminal", and "mentally ill".
Glad to see you completely ditched the calm, impartial zen palaver and reverted to true type.
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After the way Dave's speech has been widely reported on the BBC, I'm convinced the Beeb elite have finally realised the game is up for Labour and are trying their hardest to improve GB's poll ratings and Labour's chances at the next election by spinning everything they can towards Labour, with often ridiculous comparisons. I'm afraid Nick you are becoming quite obvious with this.
The more biased the Beeb obviously becomes, the more they hasten their demise within the next decade.
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Nick, none of this even matters now. The Sun and Times have backed Cameron this morning. We have our winner now so instead of continuing your blatant Labour bias and point scoring with the current administration you should try and make nice with the Conservatives.
Looking at the media, we have got on one side, the Sun, Times, Telegraph, Mail, Independent and Spectator supporting the Tories, on the other there is the Mirror and, err, the BBC. On the third side we've got the Guardian and FT. It's going to make for a pretty easy win now...
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Good God, what a time to drag up memories of Thatcher. Surely she demutualised the Building Societies leading to the current mess. She also decided that the UK didn't need a manufacturing base and could live off the crumbs from the Banker's tables. I hope that he continues to identify himself as Thatcher's Grandson because it might allow him to take his party with him but will alienate many people who can remember the swift aftermath of Thatcher's Economic Miracle(1987-1990).
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88 arquebuss:
Don't worry about it, we're all grown-ups on here. This isn't, nor should it be, some quaint old debating society from some long gone happier day. There's a political war going on out there and it won't be the last time we hear things we don't like before Gordonbennet gets thrown out of office.
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#81
Nothing is hidden by the BBC, it's just that some don't seem to know were to look for it, all three major conferences were shown live, warts and all on the BBC Parliament channel. There has been no political bias by the BBC, unlike some satellite broadcasters...
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Another Strike for Browns FAIR society
Free meals for children in Scotland.
Along with Free Perscriptions...
Along with Free Health Care for the Elderly...
Along with Free Parking at NHS Hospitals...
Along with Free Tution Fees...
must check the dictonary for the definition of Fair...
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#114
and for what is newlabour a byword?
Spendaholic?
Workshy?
Ideological dogma?
Politically inept?
Dithering, evasion and dissent?
or just...one word.... 'Spin'
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#88
But it's OK for others to insult trade unionists, the "left wing nutters" or the unemployed "who are just dossers and lay-a-bouts"?
Yes, I agree, this blog/thread should have been moderated more tightly - in fact perhaps it should have been taken down, but then all of Thatchers supporters would have screamed "CENSORSHIP" -n never mind the fact that Thatcher tried to be one of the worst political censors this country has had for many a year, 'Spy Catcher' or "Death on the Rock" anyone?...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I'm one of 'Thatcher's children' myself. I remember her screaming 'Frit! Frit!' in the House of Commons reducing the debate to the level of playground name calling! What a towering intellect, what a great politician.
She may stand head and shoulders above the rest of the pigmies in Parliament but that says more about them then her. David Cameron is an unimaginative little squib who'll probably become P.M. by default!
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Looks like history is being repeated.
Not long to go now before NuLabour are relegated to the dustbin of history.
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#112 - "State funeral? more like cheering crowds lining the route!!"
#113 - "But reminding them of thatcher would make about as much sense as reminding German Jewish voters about how good a job Hitler did."
#114 - "They might want to rethink that before "Tory" becomes a byword for "terrorist", "criminal", and "mentally ill"."
Thank you, mke888, jon112uk and CEH for giving me yet one more good reason to vote Conservative at the next election.
If this is the level of debate coming from the Labour party, then things are really far worse for them than even I thought!
Still I suppose democracy was quite a good idea when it worked, but now you know better: longing for the death of political opponents, condemning them as being as evil as Hitler, and deserving to be locked up in mental hospitals.
Oh, the joys of our brave new tolerant "touchy-feely" "fair" society! Who would ever want to change it?!
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Why the fixation with Thatcher? - The symbolism in the speech was quite clear we need grit, determination and character without forgetting our social awareness.
I thought the speech hit the right tone in making no rash promises and forewarning that difficult decisions are required.
In the circumstances it would have been crass to go for the normal tub thumping appeal to the faithful.
I enjoy Nick's blog and don't get the Labour bias comments at all.
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#121
So, Rupert has spoken then.
Why don't we abolish elections and just let him choose our PM?
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#122
what is all this tosh about Thatcher and manufacturing?
Nissan Sunderland is the most efficient car plant in Europe
Toyota Derby comes a close second.
We are the biggest car manufacturer in Europe..including Germany, thnaks ot LandRover Jaguar, Nissan, Toyota, BMW
We are the sixth biggest manufacturing exporter in the world
So why do we have a trade deficit you might sensibly ask..because we love buying foreign goods..cars, kitchens, wine, cheese, chorizo, give it a foreign name and we buy it.
That's the Uk for you - an open and free economy - and long may it remain so.
Efforts by newlabour and journalists to declare the end of capitalism are premature and I sincerely hope the journalists enjoy their new salaries when they switch the BBC for Pravda...they'll tkae a 90% pay cut.
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#126
Because the Conservative tell us things straight and have no press officers or people thinking about their brand positioning or anything like that.
Oh no.
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It is important to consider the mechanisms of modern speech writing.
Not one word is delivered without the gravest of considerations from a number of individuals burning the midnight oil.
William Shakespeare asked 'What's in a name?"... he knew the answer as well as Mr Cameron's draftsmen, who evoked "Thatcher" yesterday.
As individualistic and insightful as many posters believe they are, our responses about the use of the T-word have been anticipated and a clever calculation has taken place, the expected result of which is a net benefit for the Tory Party.
Let us not be in any doubt about what Mr Cameron's speech draftsmen--and Mr Cameron himself of course--did yesterday...
They called upon a sort of political fantasy five-a-side football team.
Disraeli: The creator of the modern Conservative Party.
Shaftsbury: The politician philanthropic to his core.
Peel: The creator of modern law and order.
Thatcher: The novice with change and economic sense.
Where Mr Cameron fits in is not so easy to sum up with use the use of a colon... so to speak.
Is he the boy put in goal forced to borrow the shirt of one of the other players--name emblazoned on it--that doesn't quite fit, or is he the star-signing?
That remains to be seen.
The jury still appears to be out on whether he has looked like a star-striker in recent days or a boy with a ball walking past bigger boys asking whether he can play.
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I think it's called PMMT.
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"If you mention Margaret Thatcher it will get noticed...."
Indeed, especially when there are BBC journalists and pro-Government spinners (sorry, political commentators) to repeat the mention ad nauseam in a way which carries a subliminal message.
I am not a habitual Conservative voter, and am still unsure about Cameron, but the BBC's anti-Conservative bias is absolutely patent even to me here on this blog, on Newsnight (Michael Crick is a disgrace) and across the whole of the news coverage.
The sooner the financial extortion known as the licence fee is abolished, the better.
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#118. Good points but it doesn't explain why Brown went through with something he didn't have to. The SNP are using that photo to clobber Brown in Scotland where Thatcher is widely seen as the Anti-Christ. Another big misjudgement from the PM!
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# 125
This Englishman has very little sympathy for his compatriots.
If the English are asinine enough to keep on voting for political parties run by professional politicians from other countries e.g. Scotland, then they can hardly complain if these politicians favour their 'home' countries, can they?
For the English, the answer is in our own hands ... at the ballot box.
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113. jon112uk
Memories may be fading. Many people may be starting to feel things under Brown are so bad they will think the unthinkable and vote tory. But reminding them of thatcher would make about as much sense as reminding German Jewish voters about how good a job Hitler did.
What a daft remark! I politically dislike both Thatcher and Brown, but heaven forbid I would compare either to that evil creature Hitler. If that is the level of NuLabour indoctrination, go back to your recommended reading list .
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Normal Labour rhetoric,
Loose the argument - get nasty
Crewe and Nantwich anyone?
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#134
"What's all this tosh about Thatcher and manufacturing?"
So, manufacturing was not harmed at all by the economic policies of the 1980s designed to increase unemployment and cause a recession as the necessary price for taming inflation and cowing the working-class(interest rates that were too high, over-valued exchange rate making life difficult for exporters).
That's an interesting view.
Re the benefits of an open economy.
Economic theory on trade does not predict that trade will be good for everyone, merely that 'society as a whole will gain, and it is possible for the winners to compensate the losers'.
The losers are obvious - those producing manufactured goods are now competing with similar workers in China. Their jobs become untenable and there is massive downward pressure on real wages in those industries that remain.
The losers were not compensated by Thatcher. They were merely told to get on their bike and either move to somewhere where there was jobs (ignoring the existing ties to community and e.g. housing cost factors why this was possible) or accept the £2/hour paying unskilled supermarket jobs that were the alternative in the new service sector economy), and told how the economic situation they found themselves in because of Government polices was actually because they were work-shy and lazy.
Trade was good for the South (lower prices for manufactured goods, didn't affect their jobs), but there wasn't much compensation for the losers now was there?
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It's not the Tories mentioning Thathcer that annoys me (let's face it - we all know they're all closet Thatcherites - "no such thing as society, anti-working class etc) but when Labour people mention her.
I think a hidden factor in Brown's poll slump was his openess to endorse Thatch as a great Prime Minister, inviting her to Downing Street admidst a media scrum and saying what an amazing PM this crazy tyrant was.
At least Tony had the tact to invite her to Downing Street through the back door where no one could see her.
Now, we've had Miliband speaking about her, practically praising her as a maverick who all politicians should model themselves on.
My point is that despite what the elite think, Thatch is still regarded as the anti-chrst in many areas of this country. If you want to win seats in poorer areas, definitely don't praise the Baroness.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
When it is proposed to meet hard times with tory solutions, then it is indeed bad medicine for tories to mention Lady Thatcher. Not at conference perhaps, where to warm approval Cameron raised all the ancient social and cultural shibboleths of his party, but in the hearing of voters asking under which party they would less unwillingly meet rising unemployment. Cameron is in danger of evoking the wrong memories in the country at the expense of rosy ones in his party.
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welshwizardS wrote:
"A speech full of promises but no mention of "how" the change will take place. Cameron talks as if he can fix the problems with a wave of a magic wand.
And how people can lay the blame for the current financial mess at the feet of Gordon Brown is beyond me.
I'm no fan of Labour but a few people need to look beyond the hollow words before proclaiming the arrival of the Messiah."
At no point did David Cameron say that it would be easy to clean up the mess left by Gordon Brown and exacerbated by The World Credit Crisis. Fixing the problems would take a long time was the meaning I got. And no the current financial mess is not only of Brown's doing but his fingerprints are all over it in terms of encouraging a borrowing and lending spree the likes of which we have never seen before. Tell us how David Cameron can possibly present exact details of his strategy well before The Election and without seeing the books to see what the real situation is?
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If you knew anything about economics you wouldn't say that. The British economy lacks fundamental leadership and domestic base, and this broken culture is like a tail wagging the dog. It's an illusion of a "free and open economy" but nothing of the sort in reality, just a collection of bad habits slowly spiralling down the plughole.
Thatcherism made a not too great situation worse, and more Thatcherism may well put Britain in an unrecoverable position. The only show in town that can counter this is the Brown Doctrine. If folks want to hug their comfort zone in the belief that choices don't matter they'll get to where they're going and won't necessarily like it.
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114 wrote:
I see the Tory tub thumpers still haven't learned their lesson. It's only morning and the political spaghetti and snit throwing has started again. One would think that self-styled ambassadors of a "changed party" would be more in tune with the rhetoric. The collective Tory performance looks like a bullet and ballot box campaign from where I'm sitting. They might want to rethink that before "Tory" becomes a byword for "terrorist", "criminal", and "mentally ill".
I think it is safe to say that this particular blogger has officially lost it. Not even the most ardent of David Cameron haters in The Press or in The Labour Party itself would stoop as low as this. Chucking out desperate insults like this just demeans him as a person and as a valid commentator!
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Nick it appears that NuLabour have their skeleton in the cupboard!
Rather prophetic that Thatcher once said - Tony wont let us down!
A picture speaks a thousand words.
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Whatever Cameron said in his speech it was Gordon Brown who invited her to Downing Street not so long ago,that was the last straw for me as far as Labour are concerned.
Yes she achieved a lot,I remember public disorder all over Britain on a far greater scale than the media reported on at the time at Toxteth,Brixton e.t.c.,e.t.c. The Belgrano,how proud can this country be of that? Miner's wives being beaten up by the big tough lads of the Met,the Poll Tax demonstration carefully orchestrated by the Met bully boys into a riot as shown by Channel 4 and so it goes on.That woman did more to split British society than anything else she might have achieved,many of the public have never fully trusted the Police since.
I hate that woman with a vengeance,and hate isn't a word I throw about,if anything's going to stop the masses of disaffected Labour voters switching,as I intend to do,it will be wheeling out that disgusting creature and reminding us of the bad old days.
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Well, well hasnt the NuLabour Project done well.
Success 1
Success 2
Not surprising really when they chose plan B - to spend our money on wars!
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#148 wrote: "Thatcher made a not too great a situation worse".
Can anyone remind us what it was like in 1979, compared, for instance, to 1997?
Can anyone remember the suicide note of a manifesto produced by Michael Foot? Did the Labour supporters on here really want to withdraw from the then EEC? And then were they later convinced as to the merits of the ERM? And then convinced of the demerits and were happy to come out?
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What strikes me as really interesting about the Thatcher comparison is that it indicates just how rattled David Cameron and chums are about Brown's 'novice' jibe.
Indeed, it smacked of desparation, as the comparison with Lady Thatcher is completely false and even dishonest - a point that I would have expected Nick and other public serice broadcasters to pick up on.
By the time Lady Thatcher had become PM, she was in no sense a political novice. She had not only been Leader of the Opposition, a qualified barrister and an MP of 20 years standing - she had also served as Secretary of State for Education and Science for four years - she had been a senior Cabinet Minister in the Heath Government.
In other words, if Mr Cameron considers Mrs Thatcher to have been a novice when she became PM , goodness knows what that would make him.
As someone who is of the same generation as Mr Cameron, I do not think it is sensible to hand over the running of the country to one who is in his early forties and of his limited experience - even more so in the case of Mr Osborne, who is only 37 years old. I would cite in support of this view the catastrophic premiership of a young turk of yesteryear - Tony Blair. Would an older, more experienced man have taken our country into a war which has resulted in the deaths of many thousands of innocents? Jaques Chirac knew not to involve France.
So, perhaps we should steer clear of novices like Mr Cameron.
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131. logica_sine_vanitate
141. Phoenixarisen
Comparing thatcher to Hitler a shabby labourite remark?
Never voted labour in my life. Be very pleased to see this shower bite the dust.
I just hate thatcher and all the harm she caused to thousands of ordinary people.
If the tories are too dumb to realise that some people weren't that keen on her - and want to keep losing votes by reminding her victims about her - that's their choice.
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#149 in reply to 114.
One must always remember that some folk paint others in the same way as they see themselves. CEH was one an object of entertainment, however I think that particular medication has run its course.
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The only show in town that can counter this is the Brown Doctrine.
We've had the Brown Doctrine for eleven years. The economy is wrecked. Banks are falling over. We're entering the mother of all recessions thanks to the Brown Doctrine.
To believe Brown has the necessary mental strength to see the errors he has made so he can change his ways and fix this economic catastrophe entirely of his own making would require you to believe Robert Mugabe could fix Zimbabwe's economy.
The guy who wrecked it ain't the guy you want to be getting to fix it. Especially since all he can offer is 'It's the yanks fault'. As far as he's concerned everything will be fine once we can all get back to borrowing and squandering again.
Yeah Gordon. If it wasn't for the yanks we could all just have kept on borrowing even more money for ever and ever as our houses got ever more over-valued. Yeah. That would have worked indefinitely if it wasn't for the yanks calling 'Time!'.
It's the Brown Doctrine alright we have to 'thank' for this disaster in the first place. A lot of people are going to get financially wiped out by the Brown Doctrine. Probably the one's who actually saved money as opposed to borrowing and squandering. I predict Gordon will unleash the dogs of hyper-inflation in an effort to bury his economic disaster.
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The delay in posting messages makes any reasonable thread difficult to follow through - nice to see Thatcher still provokes such a strong reaction!
All Brown evokes is a grimace and pity from supporters and opponents alike
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Is it just me who couldn't give a rat's backside what he said in his speech? Anyone with a bit of PR training can stand up on their hind legs and sound impressive.
I haven't decided yet which way I'm going to vote at the next election, but I can tell you it's going to be based on a careful reading of the party manifestos, and not on what someone says at a party conference. Just in case anyone didn't notice, what politicians say isn't necessarily a good predictor of what they are going to do.
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What both of the main political parties forget is that Thatcher never succeeded in her objective of `rolling back the frontiers of the state'.
She was forced into a sequence of economic initiatives because in 1979 the country was broke following the wastrel behaviour of the Wilson and Heath governments.
Factories shut and industries closed down because she stopped the taxpayer subsidies that were keeping them afloat whilst both management and unions refused to accept that times had changed.
Thatcher only succeeded in balancing the books because she sold off the family silver.
What will the next government inherit? Much the same but with no silver to pay the debts.
Both the Left and the Right have to accept that old adage: for as long as we refuse to learn the lesson of history we are doomed to relive it!
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#148
Sorry that the free market continues to irritate the newlabour apologists for the Gordon Brown doctrine of spendaholic misallocation of resources.
Sadly, as Gordon has ramped up the budget deficit to the highest level in the developed world during the good times he will have no fire power to take back into control the rest of the economy. We'll continue to make profits, create jobs and invest for the future. It must be upsetting for newlabour apologists ot know that working hard and looking after your family still pays handsome rewards in the private sector but there it is.
How inconvenint for you that this model still wins out against the failed socialist control models of eastern Europe and Russia. how irritating that rather than wanting to huddle under the protection of mother Russia these states now want to join in the free market party.
It's always interesting to her what Zen budhism has to say about our country but the last time I checked we had our own Church and a supreme leader of it who (horror of horrors) isn't Gordon Brown but her majesty the Queen. Tell me, do you get anywhere at sporting occasions with your attempts to sing 'God save our gracious Buddha, Long live our noble Buddha'??
Meanwhile back in Brownland the economic indicators are collapsing again wth construction spending down again, house prices having a record fall, manufacturing in recession, Ford moving to a four day week, consumer confidence hitting a new low, the economy growing at the weakest pace since 1992 but the dear leader still sits in Downing Street taking credit for the boom but scott free for any blame for the bust. Puzzling.
Never mind, time for Gordon Nrown to bleed the private sector and the working man even drier and put up taxes to pay for more of his jolly japes. There must be a group of hard pressed single mothers in a marginal constituency in urgent need of his help.
Call an election, Mr Brown. Your time is up.
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I think it is safe to say that this particular blogger has officially lost it.
A brief glance at his Feng Shui moonshine posting over the time I've been contributing suggests he had nothing there to lose to begin with.
Nick, would it be possible to have Paxman produce an IQ test for Gordon Brown to complete in public next time. It's possible that Gordon may be good at verbal reasoning but I just cannot see how he could possibly be able to figure out the simplest mathemical problem.
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151
The Belgrano?
I expect double standards form Labour government supporter, how else could they turn a blind eye to what has been going on for the last 11 years, but come on!
The Belgrano was a judgement made during an invasion of British Sovereignty.
Mr Blair in his first quarter as Prime Minister precided of an (illgal) 83 day Bombing campain on another sovereign counrty, without any mandate, notably Serbia. In the process they managed to destroy the Chinese Embassey and a TV station.
Grow up.
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Nick, it is rather appropriate that we look at conference moments past.
My favourite was the last one. I nearly got my violin out.
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I'm not so dumb I can't see some of the potential she tried to unlock even if things may not have gone too well, and there's no crime in being kind to someone. That's something some folks call maturity and streets ahead of the performance Cameron and his Tory pals in here have given back.
The Japanese have a saying: "People make mistakes and have difficulties". I tend to reflect on that before getting too judgemental or lashing out at someone, cuz you just end up like them and drive things further into the ground.
Some of the macho types in parliament, the boardroom, and in here will try to make you think different and jerk you around so they can con you into being a loser. But, if you stay focused on achieving stuff and being sociable it works out better in the long-run. If nothing else, the banking crash proves that.
Calm down. That's it. No magic powers required.
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152. Roll_On_2010
A very unfair, incomplete one sided post.
You over totally looked:
Success no 3.
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It's all about perception.
My own view having experienced the disaster of the Callaghan era was although he had the experience of office he had no control at all over events as they were happening.
A bit like our present PM
Had things been left as they were we would have no country left worth having.
The voters had had enough and voted in a woman as PM
She turned out to be a strong and competent PM but also had strong support and the advice of many clever people around her. Literally she was the strong voice of government and not a woman on her own.
What happened in her latter years was regrettable but that seems to be what happens when they are too long in power.
David Cameron was trying to show us how history has an awful habit of repeating itself.
But some of us already know that.
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151. Devonportdave
The socialist so desparate they have to drag up the Belgrano.
Youre team are as sunk as that ship.
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166# CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
Sorry about that, I forgot about the Potato Council.
But in my defence there are over 700 such Quangos set up by NuLabour - Where do you start?
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It's interesting to see how few times Tony Blair's name crops up! Gordon Brown is getting it in the neck for Blair's mistakes as well as his own. Blair's legacy looks like it's going to be nothing more than a footnote to obscurity.
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Sagamix
Just to pick up from last night. See post 92
Its a classic case of your socialist state sector thinking and accountability.
Begging for books but cash can be found for a work jolly.
Now tell me how will banning private education and forcing everyone to endure this kind of public sector thinking help improve this.
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My comments stack up pretty well with political events and media comment, compared to the carpet chewing from most of you folks. But, if telling yourself lies and hugging each other feels good then carry on. It just makes me look better.
I just think it proves you can't reason or negotiate with some of the Tory minds around here. They think the're always right and want the whole cake to themselves even if they shoot themselves in the foot. Wow, you guys have some way to go.
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But in my defence there are over 700 such Quangos set up by NuLabour - Where do you start?
By head-count/cost. Biggest goes first.
Or alphabetically.
Just make a start.
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He's been sending subtle messages of reassurances. To his core support for ages.
"Not mending the roof when the sun shines"
If he is saying that he will mend the roof when the sun shines then he must be a Thatcher.;o)
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169. Roll_On_2010
Come on sir...
Do the other 700 Quangos give you this?
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So now Greece gives unlimited guarantees on all deposits in banks...
Even the Third world managing to do it before Gordon Brown gets around to it.
He must be on the phone consulting with Buddha.
I expect we'll herar soon. Bless.
Call an election.
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#173
Surely that's an ideologically-driven approach of slashing spending regardless of its costs and benefits?
The first thing you would want to do is look to see if there are efficiency savings in administration in these quangos.
If you wanted to improve things, wouldn't you look on a case-by-case basis of whether the function performed by quangos and its outputs were valuable or not.
For example, would you want to abolish the Environmental Agency? Would you want to abolish the successor to the Child Support Agency (may conflict with a socially conservative 'responsibility' message)? Would you abolish the Qualifications authority?
I know you are hard-core right-wing and such pragmatic thinking does not come naturally to you. For you, the fact its the public sector makes it a waste of time.
This slash-and-burn approach (as our Conservative Mayor of London has made clear) is not the way to go. The public sector (including quangos) performs a lot of useful functions.
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re 161 Virtual silverlady
It is Callaghan and Healey all over again but this time they have been rolled into one personna in Mr Brown. He has made Middle Englands "pips squeak", sold off our reserves and not done that much for the poor either.
My only fear is that measured responses are not attention grabbing and whilst many here respect that approach, is the electorate mature enough to appreciate Camerons candour.
If I recall John Smith and Charles Kennedy's comments about the need to raise taxes were not vote winners
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I Liked the BBC comment about Cameron having no financial expertise.
He has no financial expertise.
He was the son of a stcokbroker - surely his father would have taught him something.
OK but apart from being the son of a stockbroker he had no financial experieance
He went to Oxford and Got a first in Philosophy Politics and Economics.
OK I'll give you that, but apart from being the son of a stockbroker and having a first class degree he has no financial experience.
He worked at the treasury
OK But apart from being the son of a stockbroker, a first class degree iin economics and working at the treasure WHAT EXPERIENCE DOES HE HAVE.
Romani Ite Domum
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I think the mention of Thatcher was meant to be part of a broader intention of the speech, which was to begin to frame Cameron and the Conservatives as a government in waiting (as you observed a few days ago, Nick). After having got everyone's attention (or so he feels), I think Cameron is starting to try and move away from the flaky image he has had in the past towards a more leader-like posture. I think he's wary of being too glitzy and gimmicky. While he probably won't totally succeed at portraying himself as a safe pair of hands, at least he can come across as a safe bet.
(Plus, I particularly enjoyed the way he sought to cover David Miliband with Thatcher manure. Now it's Labour who think there is no such thing as society! It's a sophisticated case, as well as a pretty scholastic one. But I'll be interested to see how it plays.)
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balhamu @177 wrote:
"The first thing you would want to do is look to see if there are efficiency savings in administration in these quangos."
This is my approach to reducing costs associated with quangos.
1. Cut staff in all quangos by 50%.
2. If, after 4 weeks, no-one notices any difference (and why would they?), cut staff by a further 50%.
3. Repeat until satisfaction results.
On the other hand, mandatory relocation of all quangos from their trendy metropolitan offices to, say, Huddersfield, would achieve the same result via voluntary retirement. (We should do the same to all BBC offices).
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#179
weejonnie
He's not the messiah? He's a very dull politician!
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Interesting that post 49 pointing out another Derek Draper Drone got reported to the mods.
But after 24 hrs in detention it has now been released.
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Nick,
whilst everybody seems to concentrate on the issue of the economy, being set by our Prime Minister who really wants to be the Chancellor again, may I suggest that readers refer to the Guardian of the 29th September, where an all party inquiry into rendition and British soldiers handing over prisoners, or detainees if you prefer that term, to the Americans, whereupon the prisoner has subsequently been 'tortured'.
The MPs have found that after taking legal advice our soldiers, face prosecution. This is a major event and deserves wider reporting.
Now, where is this in all the reports, I will place a bet with you that as part of the government reshuffle, Des Browne, and Geoff Hoon will go. Bet you.
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155. jon112uk :
Comparing thatcher to Hitler a shabby labourite remark?
Never voted labour in my life. Be very pleased to see this shower bite the dust.
I just hate thatcher and all the harm she caused to thousands of ordinary people.
If the tories are too dumb to realise that some people weren't that keen on her - and want to keep losing votes by reminding her victims about her - that's their choice.
Jon, I agree that Thatcher did a lot of harm to ordinary people, just like Brown and this government have harmed the very people who voted them in. That alas, is the nature of the beast (politicians).
We do however, need to keep a sense of proportion, none of the miserable crew, from either Labour or Tory, thank the Lord, can even compare to the wickedness of Hitler.
Guess you got carried away, I do that myself all the time!
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I see we have a new blogger "meninwhitecoats". Isn't this reminiscent of " knights in white satin"?
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The comments about Lady Thatcher were designed to play to the particular audience in the hall. You wont see Cameron extolling the virtues of Lady Thatcher come election time. Elections are won from the centre ground and many people still have bitter memories of the "no such thing as society" era.
On economics he definitely wont want to be associated with the last Conservative government. Failed addiction to monetarist dogma that crippled manufacturing and coupled high inflation with high unemployment.
To be fair I disagree that Cameron's Conservatives are still the children of Thatcher when it comes to economics. Dogmatic monetarism is discredited. The huge de-regulation of the Thatcher era isn't doing too many people any favours today either. I suspect DC recognises this more than anyone.
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#155
jon112uk: "If the tories are too dumb to realise that some people weren't that keen on her - and want to keep losing votes by reminding her victims about her - that's their choice."
OK, jon112uk, you've got a point, and I apologise for assuming you were a Labour supporter.
But I think it's a bit tiresome of the BBC to make such a big deal of the fact that Cameron happened to mention Mrs T. in his speech. It is obvious that he was just trying to make a point to rebut Brown's boastful claim that he (i.e. Brown) is the only person with a divine right to be PM, because of his "experience".
Obviously Cameron believes that Mrs T. was a vast improvement on Jim Callaghan, but it does not follow that he would necessarily agree with absolutely everything she did and said. So I find all this "back to the future" interpretation of Cameron's speech pretty naive. It seems to me to be a deliberate attempt to stir up an emotional hornet's nest about the ideological positions and labels of the past, rather than a mature attempt to engage people in discussing the problems of our current predicament. And from some comments (including mine), it seems to have worked.
The fact is that David Cameron has every right to move his party nearer to the centre ground, just as Blair had. And all this "leopard can't change its spots" type of thinking is just fear-mongering. Tony Blair was given the benefit of the doubt, so why not David Cameron?
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Its strange that Camoron and Osborne can get away so easily with dissociating themselves from their good friends in the City. Only a few weeks ago we were hearing that the CBI and The City of London preferred the Tories because they would be more friendly and agree to more deregulation. I couldn't see with my old TV if Osborne and Camoron had their fingers crossed when they blamed greedy financiers for spoiling their Conference, er I mean wrecking the World Economy.
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Any chance that ex-Commissioner Ian Blair (well done Boris!!!) will join the government as Minister for Multiculturalism and Silly Political Correctness?
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#183 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
You're lucky it wasn't 42 days.
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Today I have just one thing to say.
The right person to sort out the mess Gordon Brown has made of the economy is the person who put the first 7 years of growth into GB's consequetive quarters of growth.
Ken Clarke
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190.
ha, like that one MaxSceptic. The main bugbear of millions is that bleep bleep multiculturism - ever been to Wembley, Kingsbury and countless other places? They are disgraceful, run down nobody speaks English in fact nobody there is English. Knife crime, drug runners. The drug dealers even cruise up and down our street selling to fifteen year olds. Big big shock for those from other parts of the country who proclaim their looney liberalist ideals. Country's in a mess.
That is not racist - it is a FACT.
Tony Blair and Gordon Brown let them all in. Bet they wouldn't like it in their back yard though.
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#190 MaxSceptic
I have to agree that Boris certainly goes up in my estimation for grasping this particular nettle.
Shame PC Blair wasn't caught with his fingers actually in the the till - just think how the morale of the prison population would rise if he joined them for a while.
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190. MaxSceptic
Absolutley Well done Boris
The removal of this pargon of political correctness was well overdue.
Time for a coppers copper to take charge.
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Sir Ian Blair resigns.....
The toxic age of irresponsible, spendaholic, unaccountable government is coming to an end piece by toxic piece...
Not long now till the Ditherer falls,
call an election.
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I have something else to say.
Invoking the ghost of Christmas past didnt save the conservatives in 1997 and it wont save Labour in 2010
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Haha
I tried to post I L**d as a header in my last post but the Beeb wont accept admission of untruth in a post.
Is this because in Brown world there is no such thing as Lieing
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Dear Pot-Kettle, its just a shame Clark wasn't around in 1987 to turn Thatcher's Economic Miracle into an Economic Revival and not just a cheap Con trick. Hang on he was part of Thatcher's Government and was known as the Minister who cocked everything up he touched including the NHS. He was also the first Minister to tell Thatcher she had become an electoral liability. So he wasn't all bad!!
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RE 186 Phoenixarisen
Working your way through this lot, you need to call in the men in white coats.
I think many politicians start off with good intentions but as soon as they get any power they turn into these pathetic middle-management yes men prevalent in any large organisation.
Brown cannot stand any competition and needs to micromanage and surround himself with people like the irritating Mr Balls, whereas both Thatcher and Blair for all their many faults were confident enough in their own ability to surround .
Cameron does not appear to be phased by other peoples competence and would initially be able to let Hague and Osborne do their jobs. How things would pan out after that is anyone's guess - power does change people.
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Truly a day of sadness Ladies and Gents
The Hero of the Balcombe Street Siege has resigned.
Shot at by the IRA, High speed chases in he's Hilman Imp.
A true Hero.
All things to all men all this with a golden handshake.
Look forward to the book. My Incredible Career by Ian Blair.
Blair, it's almost synonymous with Liar.
Enter ROBOCOP
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I think, it's fair to say that Osborne and Cameron have pretty much lied their way to this point and corroded discussion. Plus, their blank cheque support of the CBI and their opposition to fair wages, and all the pretending that didn't happen.
Blair never changed his spots during his term in office, and I don't expect Cameron would if he had the same chance. The hardcore psychology is against it. But, folks like people like themselves so the media give him a free pass.
Cameron isn't a vision guy. It's just not in his scope. Folks like him love to talk about the bling and press the flesh but they intinsically hate change and make awful CEO's. This isn't the sort of guy you want around if you want to promote new growth.
Don't believe me? Phone Harvard or the LSE.
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#199
I don't care what his reputation was, Ken Clarke was sh*t hot at the economy and left the budget with government debt falling. With that and eleven years of benign economic conditions we should have a nice juicy surplus to help us through the current crisis not a crippling debt.
We should never let Labour in again. They know nothing, nada, nichts, zilch about the economy.
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#196 RobinJD wrote:
"call an election"
No hope on the one you want, but they'll probably grudgingly call the Glenrothes by-election soon (how different from Glasgow East and Crewe when promptness was urgent to prevent people being unrepresented) and nothing I've heard in the conference season so far suggests "Duff" Gordon's NuLab having a ghost of a chance there.
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Just a thought, but their is currently a 6 bed house for sale in Connaught Square for 5 million quid.
Its just a few doors down from Tony's new pad.
How about we start a fund to buy it and rent it to
Ground floor:
Brian Haw (The peace protestor from Parliment Sq)
Rental agreement 10 quid a week and a clause to maintain a full time presence on the pavement outside TBs House.
There are a few other floors that we could rent out to other deserving individuals.
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155. At 1:39pm on 02 Oct 2008, jon112uk wrote:
131. logica_sine_vanitate
141. Phoenixarisen
Comparing thatcher to Hitler a shabby labourite remark?
Never voted labour in my life. Be very pleased to see this shower bite the dust.
I just hate thatcher and all the harm she caused to thousands of ordinary people.
If the tories are too dumb to realise that some people weren't that keen on her - and want to keep losing votes by reminding her victims about her - that's their choice.
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What rubbish this whole business is. There is a Black Policeman's Union, but whoever thought Iranians and Pakistans were black? Can you imagine the outrage if white policemen formed a union? Black, should mean black, not brown or a nice suntan. It is just politically corerct to have such a union and political savvy to join it. Two recent high-ranking officers yelled "Discrimination" when confronted with their sins, marital abuse and other nasty offences. Whatever Blair's faults, he can't (as yet) claim to belong to a discriminated minority. We need a police chief who is a combination of Dixon of Dock Green, Hercules Peirrot and Shaft. So as not to upset the females, he can also have a little of Miss Marple in his mental makeup.
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Another chum of Brown & Co. is in the news today re a brand-new sleaze enquiry. See MP Vaz faces code-of-conduct probe. Surprised I can't find the story on this website.
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#202 Charles_E_Hardwidge
"Blair never changed his spots during his term in office"
Spot-on for once - Bliar was ever economical with the truth.
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#206
This posting is a mistake, mixing up #185 which I wrote. Somehow whilst I was drafting it out it got caught in paste instead of copy! Please ignore #206 or moderate it out of existence. Sorry.
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202. Charles_E_Hardwidge
I think, it's fair to say that Osborne and
Cameron have pretty much lied their way
to this point and corroded discussion.
So cross Charlie, where did all that calm zenish aura go?
Can it be panic? ... Me think so!!
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#200 meninwhite coats
Hope I never need your services, pal. I watch too many news programmes, perhaps I should look at the self improvement shows (ugh)!
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Why the fuss?
The sad truth of the comparison is harking back to the days when the dead went unburied and rubbish was piled high in Leicester Sq.
I am sure DC feels that times like this are on their way again. Who knows?
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202
Charlie is this a 45 mins weapons of Mass destruction lie
or a 24 hrs to save NHS lie
or a Peoples Referendum Lie
Or a lie to get a mortgage from your mate,
Or a snap general election lie
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Thanks for yanking stuff out of context and misrepresenting what was said.
Just thinking of government: it's so huge it's difficult for most folks to parse, and with the media chasing headlines and Osborne lying like a carpet it's difficult for folks to get a real picture. Someone needs to fix this.
If my crystal ball works as well as it normally does someone's going to get hired or fired before the end of the week. Personally, I think, it should be Stephen Carter, cuz the guy's an ex-NTL jerk who doesn't know what he's doing. The man's a rolling disaster.
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208# Brownedov
It is there, but all the other bad Brown news is pushing this worse news of the desk.
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If you take a by the book analysis of their numbers, comments, and tone it paints a picture by itself. I generally think the media has done a poor job of presenting things - it's media by press release, or just entertainment sold as opinion.
Tory polls and media circulation numbers are equally soft, and I'll suggest the reasons are pretty much the same. Both are sold on quality but produced to a price. Both are scared stiff their respective bubbles will burst. I'm just wondering when the sub-prime egos will hit the skids.
Count the turtles on your way down, or something.
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#210 Phoenixarisen
There's nothing to stop you complaining about your own posts re factual inaccuracy. I've done it successfully after a similar accident.
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Roll_on_2010 @216,
I know that it's hard to write his name without feeling a bit nauseous, but we must do our duty: His name is Vaz.
Vaz is so oleaginous that I'm surprised that he hasn't been harvested to provide a good portion of the UK's oil consumption.
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#216 Roll_On_2010
You're right, but the time stamp is only just before my #208. Either that or my ISP has started caching the BBC again.
Seems to be turning into a good "bad news day" for NuLab - maybe they're getting into training for 6 November and Glenrothes.
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As Ian Blair, a member of the PC brigade, trots of into the sunset another rears its head.
Yep, looks like the Elf and Safety PC brigade are at it again.
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Perhaps this time it will be the dead piled high in Leicester Square - the point of harking back is to think of who brought us to that point? Sunny Jim..... nice bloke and all that.
When you are a non-swimmer drowning in the pool, do you look for the hand that pushed you in, or someone else to help?
One thing is for sure - whatever he really believes about the medicine needed, if it kicks him back in the ballots, we will hear nothing more of Mrs T and Sunny Jim.
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With regard to the cabinet reshuffle my one prediction is that Margaret Hodge will ride off into the sunset, using the same reasons as Ruth Kelly.
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#215 Charles_E_Hardwidge
Very touchy. You claim Bliar was consistent and my #209 agrees.
You'll need to keep your cool for all the bad news to come on 6 November.
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208# Brownedov
As an after thought it could be that Excalibur has failed to rebut this story.
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198. Pot_Kettle
Poor you.
Lord Levy published a book on the subject.
Dont recall any problems for him
Plus he got 300 grand for his trouble.
Keep trying, one will get through.
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Hey NR,
are you on a four day week? or are your lords and masters displeased?
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All I can say is, pity help us in Wales, if Cameron is elected. We will have swapped one tory party for another, with more misery... stagnation, unemployment, poverty. More Hagues, Redwoods and Gillans to run England's last imperial outpost.
He actually said something like...
'I want to be Prime Minister of the UK, not the Prime Minister of England' (These words were not in his prepared script, it seems). He certainly would never be PM of Scotland, or Wales. His words really show where he's coming from... England first.
Time for us to take a leaf out of Scotland's book, and vote for a party which puts Wales' interests first.
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#219 MaxSceptic
ROFL
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Thatcher did make some good individual decisions, like the EU rebate and the right to buy council homes, but ultimately her legacy is pure poison.
She was right to stand up to over-zealous trade unions but in the end she responded to an itchy leg by chopping it off. Britain was once the most important country in the world as the home of industry (oh and because of its massive empire but let's forget that bit), now it's all gone. How are we supposed to compete with China when everyone's sat behind a desk? Or worried about extortionate bills to pay to greedy gas and electric companies etc?
On the upside if Cameron is gonna be another Thatcher at least there isn't much left to destroy.
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220# Brownedov
Crash Gordon has not fired the starting gun yet. He may bottle out.
I cannot remember the length of notice he has to give, but the time is getting shorter!
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217. Charles_E_Hardwidge
Charlie
If I had a clue what you were on about Id pen a response.
Ill leave you to count the turtles on the way out.
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Amazing it turns out that its cheaper to hold the training sessions at the college itself rather than in a four star hotel in a spanish holiday resort
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#130
But at least 3.5 MILLION were not working under Thatcher. History can't lie....
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The orthodox tory parochial voice...........
dissenting to the collective responsibility of tax.........Humbug............
Capitulate........to the universal methods
or......else?
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The problem with all BBC commentators is that the mere mention of Margaret Thatcher makes them scornful. Why don't you admit that she pulled this country round after the Callaghan disaster. Had she been in power for the past 11 years we would not be in the mess we are in today. All the wingers up north who blame her for closing sick industries should realise that their inefficiencies were the product of industrial action instigated by power hungry union officials, who are trying to blackmail Brown in to giving them back their corrupt power. Cameron will not be in the weak position of Brown who relies on union funds to keep his party going.
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#231 Roll_On_2010
"Crash Gordon has not fired the starting gun yet. He may bottle out."
Because of the fiction at Westmidden that parties don't exist (theoretically we vote for an individual MP to represent our interests), it's just a convention that the "incumbent" party points out to Mr Speaker that the seat has become vacant.
Unless "Duff" Gordon declares a state of emergency and suspends Westmidden, the SNP could well ask for the by-election themselves if they feel he's dragging his feet, but obviously not until they're sure it will help their campaign.
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#228 brynt41
Help yourselves by voting whichever of LibDem or PC stand the best chance of ridding you of a NuLab incumbent. Both want to upgrade the Assembly. I know PC want full independence, but until/unless Scotland leaves the UK that's quite a way off.
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Little boy blue and his light infantry, make no impact with their......back to thatcher conference...........
The novice is fading away..................
Brown hits him for six with six words
"ITS NO TIME FOR A NOVICE"
Laugh.......Laugh.......Laugh.......
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#207
My comment was not allowed because the BBC in its wisdom does not allow citizens who pay their wages freedom to express themselves. So be it. I wanted to remark on the resignation of Blair, but I will just restrict this posting to a suggestion of whom should take his place. The new police chief should be a combination of Dixon of Dock Green, Hercules Peirrot and Shaft. So that the females shouldn't feel discriminated against, he should also have some of the mental makeup of Miss Marples. Is that politically correct enough?
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Is Oh Lordy Gordy hopin we will become disinterested and move on, and won't reappear until spring 20 12? then he can pretend its all been a baaaaaaad dream.
but in reality I'm pinching myself, trying to wake up from this horror nightmare, and its not WORKING!!!
BTW, call an election (to coin a phrase!)
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re 232 and 49 carrots...
What are you doing baiting that hu-man, when there's cold pressed latinum to be made? There's no profit in this. They have public sector workers that make no profit on this planet. Urghh.
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235# derekbarker
Derek go easy - I am still trying to get my head around one of your previous blogs!
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236. golfdave2
Here Here. welcome Dave
Id like you to intorduce you to Derek Barker
Hes a big Thatcher fan.
Evening Derek, hows the job hunting going?
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I have heard a rumour that Duff Gordon has taken on two new financial advisors. I wonder if
this guy is one of them?
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Interesting that Thatcher's legacy remains so contentious so long after her political demise. Is there another Prime Minister about whom this could be said? Certainly not in the 20th century, in my view. Oddly, the only comparison I can think of is with George Bush - but then at least Thatcher has always had her defenders. I struggle to see that Bush (GW) will be even partially rehabilitated by 2026! Then again, maybe it's better to be remembered for something - at this rate Brown's premiership will be a mere footnote to the Blair period. Man with a plan v Man with no clue...
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#230
But was the right-to-buy really a good idea?
This is not a political point - I believe Labour supported the policy (or at least do now).
Politically popular - giving lots of people a house at a massive discount is of course popular. A bit like paying someone to vote for you (hey - have 50% of a house for free)
But the costs are big:
1) They were sold at a discount
2) There is a massive shortage of council housing now (because of RTB and political decisions to end building council houses, with the slack not being picked up by the private sector) - and homelessness problems as a result of that
3) The housing bubble (and increase in personal debt on the back of it) was made possible by RTB
4) It enabled complete neglect of the private rental sector, and helped make our society obsessed with housing
5) It helped create pockets of extreme deprivation which have exacerbated social problems - council housing is only now accessible by the extreme poor
6) It has contributed to our housing-obsessed society - and makes the pressure to keep irrational tax subsidies to home ownership which distort economic activity and to frustrate the building of new homes irresistable
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#245 Roll_On_2010
I think not. The Supreme Leader and Capt. Darling are already quite expert at making money disappear.
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"Zoom....Zoom....
Tripe....Tripe....and double tripe
The neo/cons are Zooming!"
Eureka!
I've discovered that Barking Derek Barker is Harold Pinter.
Sample:
There's no escape.
The big [expletive deleted] are out.
They'll [expletive deleted] everything in sight.
Watch your back.
(Februrary 2003)
An overrated leftie, so-called poet haunts this blog. Spooky, eh?
How about offering us one of your famous long silences instead?
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W. Whitlaw..thatchers hatchet man....
remember him......Ouch......
No surprise with Ian Blair.....that whole shooting mess on the tube's was outrageous...........
The problem now! however, is, can anyone understand what Boris say's........
Still, he knows how to put young Cameron in his place......division in the ranks? the un-united tories........
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#249
No armchair sitter.....just draping away
solitude of the septic think tank....Hmmmm
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#249 MaxSceptic
LOL, but the timestamp on #250 suggests your plea for silence has fallen on deaf ears.
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#236
I don't think they are scornful. NR definitely is not in this blog (he's reporting that Cameron et al do not want to remind people of Thatcher and suggest a return to those times - it's not a vote-winner in most of the country, as I've said earlier in this blog).
#246
Many people gained from Thatcherism - mainly the middle and upper classes in the South.
Many more people lost out heavily - the Midlands, the North, Scotland and Wales and the working-classes in the South and beyond.
That's the reason for the polarisation I think. And this blog gives a misleading impression of feelings in the country.
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247# balhamu
Look on the bright side it gave Teflon Tony and Duff Gordon more money to fritter away on other things, such as wars!
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Ghostly apparitions......the time vault.....
a return to 1980's......O'ooooo
The right to buy, must now! go down as the most appalling get out clause ever devised.
Thats what happens when the tories rule.
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253 balhamu
Once again I have to say - look on the bright side, 2010 will put your misgivings to the test!
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#254
You're obviously right in one sense (public borrowing would have been higher in 1997 without the receipts from RTB).
But very wrong in another. It helped plug the £320 billion current deficit 1979-2007 that was created by massive government "investment" in unemployment, family breakdown, social problems and irresponsible tax cuts for the rich.
I really don't understand this 'saving for a rainy day' argument Cameron and other Tories use. Compared to the previous administration, this one has been frugal - balanced current budgets and invested in schools, hospitals, regeneration and infrastructure. And they did all this without selling off a vast chunk of our state assets on the cheap and without squandering North Sea Oil receipts anywhere near the 3% GDP the previous administration enjoyed at one point.
And I'm sure that if we had the Conservatives in power we would not have gone to war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
They voted against it didn't they?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#253 balhamu
I agree with most of your post, although I think you overstate the loser/winner balance slightly, if only because you discount the even greater mess we'd have been in had we allowed Sunny Jim to treat us to another few winters of discontent.
On balance, I think Roll_On_2010 is right that you should look on the bright side and hope that Cameron won't be Thatcher2. Even if he would like to be, he'll have some pretty hard negotiating to do if he's really the unionist he claims to be.
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257. balhamu
They did vote for war and they were wrong, they however, can claim they were misled with a certain dodgey dossier.
This document that was actually edited by by an unelected spin doctor.
Now think about that for a minute. A document that was designed to convince people of the need for war, was actually edited by a PR man.
Unforgivable.
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Cameron in a terminal mess over his fight to train plans.
Lets see the so called politician of conviction
flip/flop all over the place.
camera On.........laugh...laugh...laugh
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#257
Just look at #184. The problem is not only the wars, it is about our conduct during and after the war. The war in Iraq breaches all International Law, it was a war of aggression. The treatment of prisoners is a disgrace. I do not want the squadies punished, I want those who issued the orders brought to book. There is a living shame about Iraq, we now have a Ministry of Defence, that is the wrong name, it was and is the War Department.
If orders were not given as to how prisoners were to be treated then that is also unacceptable. The evidence is there for all to see. Blair, Bush, now Brown are guilty, they must be made to account for their misdemeanours.
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Mrs T was always like Marmite. The interesting bit is are we in for another winter of discontent?
DC would appear to expect we are... he raised the spectre of who rescued us and the unpopular medicine.
Well, according to NR's logic, perhaps what might save the Lab party is Mrs T passing before the election and yet another piece of GB spite - No state funeral....
Ah well the difference between Mrs Thatch and Gordon Brown?
Mrs Thatch: There is no such thing as society
Gordon Brown: There is no longer any such thing as a building society...
Mr Cameron: There is a society.... but its been broken........
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261. derekbarker
Derek cant you go and blether with Brian
Im sure your fellow Scots are mising you.
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257# balhamu
Oh dear has nobody told you yet. NuLabour not only carried on with the previous governments RTB, but they have sold off whole council estates across Britain to so called Social Landlords. I don?t know about you but I would class this as privatisation by the back door.
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#260
That is a flimsy excuse for the Conservatives support for the war.
Accepting for a minute that the Government knew the claims in the document were wrong and deliberately misled the house (which enquiries to date have decided was not the case).
They believed it was the right thing to do, and I don't think any alleged direct threat to us really swung the decision.
Read the Hansard debate on the 18th March 2003 - the 'dodgy dossier' does not figure in Conservatives saying why they support the Government motion to go to war.
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"They did vote for war and they were wrong" Hmmmm.......Carrots
So why didn't they listen to Hauge over the Argentina war?
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266# balhamu
Well whoopee for the Tories, they supported the war. I am talking about NuLabour.
Looked in hansard and beggar me I cant find anywhere were it says that the have found the WMD or even that they could be used in 45 mins.
Not withstanding the above, in 2003, I cancelled my NuLabour membership, of 40 years, because I believe that the money spent on wars could be put to better use. On Education, NHS and lifting our children out of poverty to name but a few.
In retrospect I see I made the right decision.
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#247 balhamu
I take your point about the RTB thing. In principle I think it was the right thing to do but like every decision she made she didn't bother to consider potential long term negative social effects. In that respect she was immoral. And she liked to lecture people on morality. In that respect she was a hippocrite.
But who am I to judge I'm too young to remember any of that anyway.
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#265
Read my post 247 (which all further post follow on from).
"This not a political point. I believe Labour supported the policy (or at least do now)"
So your mocking tone ("oh dear has nobody told you yet") is uncalled for.
On your other point, these Social Landlords (Housing Associations) still charge subsidised rents and are still open only to those on the council housing waiting list. They are still social housing.
It's privatisation in the same way contracting out is, not in the same way the sale of BT was privatisation. Ends not means are what is important surely?
And I'm a pragmatic person (I'm a trained economist) - so whether its privatisation or not doesn't bother me. I care about the outcomes.
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The problem you had with the tories in power was, they used the police force as a weapon of their politics rather than law and order.
No one of age will forget those horrible attacks carried out by policemen, on the miners and the poll tax protests.
That type of action drove a wedge between the public and the police-force, I believe that those incidents still linger strong in todays society and the trust that was broken has never been properly mended.
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#268
The implicit point I was responding to was not whether the wars were right or not, it was suggesting that Labour went to war where the Tories wouldn't have done. I believe it was the right thing to do - though the planning for after the war was not good enough.
re cancelling your membership of 40 years
I don't believe you were a member of the Labour party for one second (Labour only rebranded themselves as New Labour in the mid-1990s btw).
The archive of comments on here is a helpful thing. On earlier blogs, you say you would not describe yourself as left-wing. You moan about the Unions. You show clear signs of supporting Thatcher in 1979.
Do not pretend to be something you are not - you get found out.
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Generally speaking Roll-on-2010 if you are a pacifist thats fine...no problems.
I think the Iraq war was wrong, and I much preferred the containment plan, however, there has been a very serious situation building up for a long time in the middle east and other countries that harbour extreme fundamentalist.
I think history will judge the war as a pre-emptive strike, I dont think there is any-doubt that at some point the western world was going to have to deal with the extreme fundamentalist.
Its a sad thing to say, but I believe the world is still centuries away from total peace........
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RE: Derek Bonkers
The problem you had with the tories in power was, they used the police force as a weapon of their politics rather than law and order.
No one of age will forget those horrible attacks carried out by policemen, on the miners and the poll tax protests.
That type of action drove a wedge between the public and the police-force, I believe that those incidents still linger strong in todays society and the trust that was broken has never been properly mended.
and the fact that the thin blue line has become a bunch of box ticking nannies under this shower?
tut tut, you do ,
talk! drivel
ha ha ha, goes the sound of the labour party as it gurgles down the toilet pan of history
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#274 skippy
That type of response is an ill-mannered and frankly stupid reply to the problems of policing.
There needs to be more trust between the public and the police, generation has passed down the wrong message of social policing, the last thing you want is heavy handed police, with battens raised for minor offences.
Parents and children should have informal meetings with police on a monthly bases for the first year at primary school,i also think the ploice -force should be more active with youths in the community through sporting programmes.
I think some of the police-forces budget could be put to use through more socially intergrated community work.
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derek,
the police force is there to serve the community and PREVENT CRIME. Hand holding shouldn't be their bag, Catching criminals and protecting our civilian way of life is.
why should they become another insidious extension of the nanny state?
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268:
balhamu has called you a barefaced liar for saying that you were a Labour Party member for 40 years. Could you please confirm whether he is right or wrong. I do know of instances where political allegiances can radically change. My sister's boyfriend, a Liverpudlian by the way was a loyal, committed canvasser for The Labour Party and his heroine wa Barbara Castle. We had many wind up political arguments but it was all in good fun and very enjoyable. He went to Oxford University which he hated because of the number of students coming from a privileged background. He graduated and became a solicitor. He worked on the case of the policeman stabbed to death in a riot. Slowly but surely he completely changed his politics to the extent that he now has little respect for his former party. I'm not saying that he was right or wrong, just saying that it can happen. I myself had many heated arguments with my parents who read The Daily Telegraph and were firm admirers of Margaret Thatcher. I hated the way her Government treated public servants and in particular teachers as I was one at the time. I wasn't in the least bit sorry when she was shown the door. It is possible for people to change their views although the very committed are extremely cynical about it. Right now all I know is that I agree with The BBC poll which identified Gordon brown as the most unpopular P.M. since Clement Atlee who came second I believe to Winston Churchill. Rather knocks on the head Cheri Clair's comment of yesterday.
So Roll on is balhamu right or wrong? I'm interested to know exactly why you changed your spots after such a long time.
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#276
Runskippyrun
Its that kind of mentality, that is wrong,
preventative measure are needed to stop young children from becoming future criminals.
The police are not just there to act when they see a crime, they must also help to prevent crime.
Its nothing to do with being a nanny state,
the public needs to be comfortable with the police-force, as if they were the next door neighbour, or the class room teacher.
Look, dont you think it would be a good idea to hear the next police comms.... and David Cameron make a joint statement that they got it wrong with the miners strike and poll tax protests.
Do you agree that the police should intergrate more with the communities through sporting programmes?
Do you agree that parents and children could benifit from regular meetings with the police in the school?
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278:
Look, dont you think it would be a good idea to hear the next police comms.... and David Cameron make a joint statement that they got it wrong with the miners strike and poll tax protests.
Do you agree that the police should intergrate more with the communities through sporting programmes?
Do you agree that parents and children could benifit from regular meetings with the police in the school?
Would agree with you on the last two points. As far as the miners are concerned they were objecting to well needed modernisation and a small minority of militants hijacked the protest in an attempt to bring the country to it's knees. That couldn't be allowed to happen. If the Government of the day had stood idly by while the economy went down the tubes it would have been roundly ctiticised and rightly so. It was a straight fight between Thatcher and Scargill and while I have little love for Margaret Thatcher on this particular issue I happen to believe she was right to use the power of the police to prevent militant Unions from causing havoc for all. The fact that in some instances they overused their power and were unnecessarily violent is something that also happens in war and is down to the heat of the moment. Noone is condoning that kind of behaviour but the alternative which was to acquiesce to the militants was unthinkable in my opinion.
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266. balhamu
Ill concede it might be flimsy and / or they were wrong. But they are not equally culpable.
But you avoid my main point. The spin doctor got to edit the intelligence report.
Ill say that again.
THE SPIN DOCTOR GOT TO EDIT THE INTELLEGENCE REPORT.
Unforgivable.
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Nope, I'm all for a police force to be kept seperate from the public, so that you learn to live in fear when you commit a criminal act.
Heck, I'm all for public executions, as we as a nation, seem to have slipped back to the times of Hogarth's dystopia.
there needs to be shown that there are repurcussions if you act outside the law.
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Thatcher not only took away people jobs,
she used the police force for her own political gains.
I can remember the experts at the time saying that in 25 years time Britain would be in a position of fuel poverty, with the closure of the mines. ( THATS ABOUT RIGHT)
It wasn't so long ago that there was a massive police protest in london, did the army come out with guns and tanks to make sure all went well?
Its was a social disgrace what happened to the miners and the poll tax protest, the police and the government were in the wrong.
I hope you can see that the damage done, is still a problem in society today.
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#281
Honestly........what century do you think this IS?
Fear can drive people into crime......come on.....
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Indirectly you could say that the terrorists have achieved their aim of bringing The West to its knees by forcing us to spend countless billions on the war effort in Iraq and Afghanistan. They must be rubbing their hands in glee at our present predicament.
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282. derekbarker
Destroying the strangle hold that militant unions had on this country, was without doubt Thatchers finest achievement.
Tough on socialism and tough on the causes of socialism.
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#280
It was commented on rather than edited - the Press Officer in question did not have editorial control over the document.
The allegedly exaggerated claims in the document did not feature in the Parliamentary debate over whether to go to war or not (18th March 2003). For example, IDS (Conservative leader at the time) made a compelling case for why it was right to go to war without mentioning it once.
Anyway, I don't want to get into the rights or wrongs of the Iraq war - a little off topic. Just note that both main parties supported it, and the allegedly exaggerated claims in the document on Iraqi WMD did not influence the Conservative's decision.
I know the Conservatives would like to pretend that they did not, or that they only did "because the Government lied". But it doesn't wash if you look at the facts.
A familiar story when looking at what the Conservatives are currently saying.
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#285
Carrots.....there was an employment law introduced in 1945 among others!
That stated ,that any work-place must employ at least 3% of its work-force that have a disability
The date should help? who was the PM that introduced that law?
As to your strangle hold comment?
The covenantors were terrorist,
you will find the Trade Union has a LONG history of pacifist and anti- war members,
could I suggest that you read the story about John Maclean, the clydeside worker
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derekbarker,
As you've stopped the rambling, Pinteresque blank verse and started to lucid post comments I will comment on their content rather than form:
Even at the risk of opening old wounds and stirring up old hatreds, I cannot allow your misinformed statements to stand unopposed.
Thatcher not only took away people jobs,
she used the police force for her own political gains.
No she did not. She deployed them to secure public safety and order. It is New Labour that has politicised the police services - just look at the PC agenda.
I can remember the experts at the time saying that in 25 years time Britain would be in a position of fuel poverty, with the closure of the mines. ( THATS ABOUT RIGHT)
The left-wing people who 'loved' the miners are the same people who have colluded with the enviro-nutters to neuter Britain's nuclear energy programme and hobble the development of new power stations. Even today when the need is clear to all, these same people are against the use of coal new coal-powered generation plants (even 'clean' ones), preferring all manner of unreliable and insufficient 'alternative' energy sources.
It wasn't so long ago that there was a massive police protest in london, did the army come out with guns and tanks to make sure all went well?
No, because there was no concern that protesting policemen would riot or be a danger to public safety.
Its was a social disgrace what happened to the miners and the poll tax protest, the police and the government were in the wrong.
It was not.
The miners action was primarily politically motivated (remember that 'class warrior' brillo-pad scargill?). The unions used violence and intimidation to enforce a strike that was directed against the political system rather than for their members' interests. It is no surprise, therefore, that so many miners despaired of the NUM and broke away.
Police action was a reaction against the NUM's thuggish violence and intimidation - primarily directed against the very people it claimed to represent.
Sure, local communities were badly damaged (and I appreciate that the scars remain), but this was the fault of the NUM not willing to consider any change in a changing world, and clinging to the tenets of its revolutionary agenda.
As for the poll tax, most of the protesters that engaged in violence with the police were, again, politically motivated by the agendas of Militant and the SWP rather than a representative selection of aggrieved taxpayers. Few of those who participated in violent protests and riots were actually in employment or paying any tax whatsoever.
The 'poll tax' - or 'community charge' - was, in fact, the fairest tax of all - a tax that ensured that a single person living in a house or flat who uses very little in the way of local authority resources, does not pay the same as, say, a family of six who do.
Sure, it's not socialism - but who in their right mind wants socialism?
It is an indication of the cowardice of all major parties that the grossly unfair and distorting 'council tax' bumbles on, whilst a truly fair manner of paying for local services was ditched because of the utterly distorted image of it created by the malign and loony left.
Finally,
I hope you can see that the damage done, is still a problem in society today.
It is the damage done to society by the left that is the key social problem today - especially the creation of a culture of benefits dependency and a plethora of run-down, no-go areas within which a feral underclass indulge in drugs, violence and crime, reigning unopposed - sensible and effective policing having succumbed to political correctness and 'trendy theories' of societal behaviour that were already proven redundant in the 1950s.
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#284
Yes, you could indirectly suggest that,
you may even go further and suggest, that the terrorist are active, to bring down the western worlds financial institutions.
I dont think there is any change there,
it is a very complex world indeed.
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#288
MaxSceptic,
She deployed the police on picket lines, many mines were far from the public view.
Many nuclear power stations have been in operation in Britain for along time, many employ vast numbers and trade union members.
The NUM knew that then as today many power stations still rely on coal to fire them.
The thacher government spent more on importing coal, than any other resource.
Is it not abit strange to you, that there are now! a number of new open-cast mines operating in Britain?
We could disagree all day about the poll-tax, the vast majority of the public hated it.
You offer no answers to policing, only hard headed opinions, that lead to riots and dis-order.
I'm sure your aware that the thatcher government had a pre-ordained plan to break the trade union movement?
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On Mrs T, you have to give credit where it's due ... the unions, back then, needed to be confronted and Margaret was equal to the task.
Apart from that, she was a disaster. Most people can remember only too well the damage she caused even if the lady herself, sadly, cannot.
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286. balhamu
The allegedly exaggerated claims !!!!!
There really is no reply to that:
It may have been debated in parliament and that great arbiter of truth may have exonerated him. I just don?t buy it.
I also dont buy the fact that this lifted and plagiarised piece of research was all down to the intelligence services. Downing street and therefore Campbell would have exerted pressure even if he didnt actually edit it himself. I feel as sure as I can be of that.
Im much more a fan of the Downing Street memo and the words of the head of MI6 when he said that Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD and that the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.
It also quoted Jack Straw as saying that it was clear that Bush had made up his mind to go to war and that the case was thin.
That?s enough for me.
Oh yes and to be clear Im not defending the Tories position, they totally failed in their role as opposition, their role to test the argument and debate the position to the bone vanished. All Im saying is that they did not lead the way nor did they construct the argument for war.
They may have done if the positions were reversed, but we will never know.
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Well I for one will always be eternally grateful to Maggie for the removal of free school milk. Having to drink that after it had been sitting in a warm classroom all morning was disgusting, on a par with school cabbage and the cane. Am less impressed with the invention of tinned squirty cream, something I feel the world would be a better place without and not my idea at all of a legacy.
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derekbarker @290 asks:
"I'm sure your aware that the thatcher government had a pre-ordained plan to break the trade union movement?"
Yes. Of course. That's why she was elected.
And re-elected.
And re-re-elected.
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#290. So Thatcher had a pre-ordained plan to break the TU movement.
Thank heavans for that!
So what do you think Scargill's plan was?
What do you think the TU's plan was? Wild cat strikes? Secondary picketing? Violence and intimdation for non-union members?
Remember Grunwick?
Remember miners v miners?
remember that in every movement there are two sides to every tales, and closed shops, non-secret ballots were the thin end of the wedge.
There is a role for a TU movement. I did some study papers for a TU when I was younger.
But there is a line. Neither the Scargill or the Red Robbo ones were the ones that most of us feel were right to take. But the moderates were always shouted down by those who were too highly principled rather than pragmatic.
Why do you think that neither Tony or Gordon are actually proposing reinstating what Thatcher took away?
Precisely because when Labour came back into Government they were relieved that someone else did the dirty work.
It's obvious when you think about it. Isn't it?
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#295
TerryNo2
What a blanch approach? we are talking about thousands of jobs lost and nowhere to go!
Yes, thatcher did shred trade union legislation.
The privatisation and fragmentation of the railways, has been a disaster, there may well be change their, would it not be strange for a national coal board to be re-introduced, giving the now! position on fuel shortage......after all it is the age of back to the future.
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#296.
Believe me. I know full well about unemployment. I also know about unemployment under Labour too.
What you introduced was about the TU movement as if everything smelt of roses. Returning to the days of militancy is where no-one wants to go. Remember how innocent TU members were victimised in their own homes? No-one will get to the truth of this by watching Billy Elliott. Tony and Gordon realised that. That's why they have NOT dispensed with the Thatcher reforms, while still taking the TU shilling.
Changing the subject onto the railways is not relevant. But having studied the privatisation of the rolling stock companies for lecturing and having read the Parliamentary committee report on this subject I'll be very pleased to introduce my thoughts on this at a later time.
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Message 13, Northern Thatcherite...
joined when you were 14 eh?
...now that you are 14 and half, I suppose you think we didn't notice the comments from quite a few political commentators, and the retained knowledge we all hang on to of how your darling, now re emerging cloned as Cameron, sold the west down the financial river, in cahoots with her amorato, Reagan, when they gave free rein to the money markets to play with the wealth of nations, or how she skirted with her own international credibilty when slavering over Pinochet, even to the extent of handing him the keys to our kingdom, when his number was up in Chile.
Some amongst the many, born in the last twenty five years, may be conned by the baby faced 'son of Handbag Woman', but I reckon there is still far too long to go before he can once again turn this political nation into the land where only the acolytes of wealth spin their way into Westminster.
Warping the fiscal health of us all, as did his Mrs Messiah.
To date he has put out nowt that means anything to anyone with a clear view of politics, his speech was like a smudged chalk formula on a school blackboard, appearing to mathematically come to something conclusion, when first glanced at, but when the detail is sought, all one can see except for the smudged writing, is the scatter of chalk dust on the floor below the board.
On such are dreams made, but nightmares come into being.
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#297
Terry, No one said anything about Derek Hatton, you seem, very anxious about the T U movement, you may have had a bad run in with someone over a union matter?.
I dont believe I have changed the subject, the coal board was a publically owned asset, so were the railways, thatcher simply wanted to end public ownership in favour of privatisation(yes)
Look, I not calling for a re-turn to the 1970's
however, I do believe that there are certain Industries, that would be an asset if they were publically owned.
I'm think you would agree that private enterprise, has not delivered in many areas.
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Thatcher argued for 'sound money'- teaching eveyone about the value of money. Sought to reduce the role of a labourite 'big state' which had damaged the UK economy.
Where in all of that is it different now? Cameron is right a Tory modernizing agenda leads us towards these principals again. Cameron should champion Maggie as her lessons need to be taught again.
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#292
I don't want to push the point, but have the independent enquiries concluded that the Government deliberately misled the house? Didn't think so.
And the Conservatives would have done exactly the same thing - read the reasons why IDS said (in his capacity of Conservative leader) he was supporting the Government in the 18th March 2003 Parliamentary debate.
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#299.
Ok. Thanks
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#300
Thatcher argued for 'sound money'.
But that ideological approach didn't work, as has been accepted by most classical economists now (and why inflation-targeting rather than restricting money supply directly is the approach taken by virtually every central bank in the world).
A quick economics lesson:
'Monetarism' (or sound money) is based on The Quantity Theory of Money.
By definition, MV = PY
where, M=Money in Economy
V=Velocity of Circulation of Money (speed at which it flows round the economy)
P=Price Level
Y=Income
Monetarism reaches the conclusion that increasing money supply (M) increases prices (P) by assuming that the velocity of circulation of money (V) and Income (Y) are constant.
Following this approach, Thatcher tried to restrict various measures of 'money' in the economy (M) to restrict the price level.
However, at the same time, financial reforms she implemented increased the velocity of money (V), putting upwards pressure on P. The assumption on which monetarism broke down.
The solution that worked was decreasing Income (Y). An unfortunate side-effect was mass unemployment, but then again its a price well worth paying isn't it?
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So, Dean, to summarise:
* Thatcher was ideologically attached to a view of the world (monetarism) that was unproven
* It turned out that this view of the world was based on unrealistic assumptions of constant velocity of circulation of money
* Other policy goals (financial deregulation) conflicted with the monetarism project - it made restricting the money supply impossible (banks were able to create more money and the state could not control it), and increased the velocity of circulation (e.g. increased access to credit cards and debit cards, increased access to mortgage finance)
Inflation was decreased - but only via a massive recession that decreased income.
This is what happened back in the 1920s when the UK tried to return to the Gold Standard (a similar approach to the monetarist one). It caused a depression.
It is an approach that is now discredited. It is not used anywhere else in the world.
I hope that we are not going to return to an era where policy decisions are made based on ideology rather than evidence.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nick
You knew the impact of your headline in the blog and no amount of weak retraction will suffice. You tried to take a good speech and try an potray it as a Thatcherite repositioning
I used to think of your reporting as reasonably independent but it is becoming clear that as the days go by and a conservative government becomes more likely you are trying to undermine Cameron at every step.
You are nearly as pro Brown as Andrew Marr and that is saying something.
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Leedsnab,
As Nick said, in his speech Cameron compared himself (i.e. the novice) vs Brown (i.e. the experience) to Thatcher (the novice, in his view, forgetting her 20 years Parliamentary experience and Cabinet experience) vs Callaghan (the experience).
Mentions of Thatcher also go down well at the Conservative conference.
Nick didn't read anything into it that Cameron did not invite.
Why so sensitive about Thatcher anyway? Are they ashamed of her record?
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Cameron is such a plastic man. No substance, no gravitas and definately no idea what to do if he was PM. Brown called him a novice, i would say more of a pipsqueak.
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Monetarism far from failing cannot possibly be held responcible for the failures that you outline. I request that you read about Economist Robert Solow of MIT. He suggested that the 2001-2003 failure of the expected economic recovery should be attributed not to monetary policy failure but to the breakdown in productivity growth in crucial sectors of the economy, most particularly retail trade. He noted that five sectors produced all of the productivity gains of the 1990s, and that while the growth of retail and wholesale trade produced the smallest growth, they were by far the largest sectors of the economy experiencing net increase of productivity. "2% may be peanuts, but being the single largest sector of the economy, that's an awful lot of peanuts."
Therefore Monetarism is not discredited, but potentially untested in any deepening sense.
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It would have been very nice if the BBC had given such extensive and uncritical coverage (anyone remember any opposition being allowed a look in while wall to wall coverage of the Labour Conference was on?) to Mr Cameron's speech and the Conservative Conference in general such that the nation could form its own opinion. But then I suppose there are still plenty of those who were quaffing champagne at the BBC in early May 1997 ( as quoted by Jane Garvey in an unguarded moment on air) in employment there, even allowing for those who left to become paid by the taxpayer rather than licence payer shortly thereafter. to whom allowing uncritical coverage of anything Consertive is tantamount to treason!
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308:
How do you explain the fact that 'the plastic pipsqueak' you refer to is still fourteen points ahead of your so called 'man of experience' even after he supposedly made the speech of his life after his own Conference? Yet another miserable attempt to deflect attention away from The P.M. by hurling abuse at his main challenger. Try a little harder why don't you.
While I'm here I would just like to say well done 'virtualsilverlady'. Like Vince Cable you make a lot of sense with your incisive comments. Rock on sister!
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I would like to add 'Why shouldn't The Government safeguard our personal bank deposits?'. They're partly to blame for the present economic mess. Families receiving inheritances from the moderate estates of deceased parents and those who have recently sold their houses in order to purchase a new one could well have far more at stake than a measly £50,000 in their bank accounts albeit only for a brief space of time.
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So the irresponsible attitude of the so called 'free market economy' and lending institutions, has done what many of us have been forcasting for several years now, and 'come home to roost'.
I won't rattle on about the reasons for our current situation, or try to apportion blame, as most thinking people will be well aware of the answers to both.
No doubt the property speculators who will have used borrowed money and be left in negative equity in this climate, will be squealing like mad, although I suspect that it will be some time before they will be heard above the clamour.
I think that in the fairly near future, people will be thankful that Gordon Brown is the man in charge of rescuing the situation, and not someone else.
In my view, he has adopted a measured approach, and avoided knee jerk reactions to the crisis.
I am watching T.V. at the moment, and the only person criticising the government's actions to deal with the crisis, is speaking with a very pronounced Irish accent. Hmmm. Enough said.
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312Miss Waldorf well you made it quite clear on another blog that you wanted safeguards for depositors and why even in foreign banks.
I am afraid that your
"a measly ?50,000 in their bank accounts "
makes one wonder why you think £50.000 is measly.
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314:
I was referring to the brief window of banking time when people take out a bridging loan or have just received lump sums from lifetime pension funds, death policies, sold houses and inheritances etc. Why should they be expected to lose out big time? If your inference is that I am a rich toff then forget it. £50,000 wouldn't buy a garage in my neck of the woods.
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