Europe - ticking time bomb?
The Tory leadership did not attend last night's dinner to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the Bruges speech. They were not there to pay homage to Margaret Thatcher or to join in the chants of "10 more years". They did not hear Norman Tebbit's call on them to promise a referendum on whether Britain should stay in a Europe re-moulded in the Lady's image or have done with it and get out.
You can be sure, however, that they had spies there report back on who went (only a handful of Tory MPs went including Sir Nicholas Winterton, Andrew Rosindell and Roger Gale), what was said and the mood on the evening. Team Cameron knows all too well that Europe is a "ticking time bomb" for the Conservative Party as the Shadow Foreign Secretary, William Hague, likes to put it.
If the Irish government decides to ask the Irish people to vote again on the Lisbon Treaty, if that vote's held before a British election and if they say "yes" the Tories will have to answer the question - now what will you do? There are enough "ifs" for the party to insist in public that they're not prepared to answer a hypothetical question. Privately, however, work is going on about what to do if the Lisbon Treaty's ratified and the Tories form the next government.
All they've said so far is that they wouldn't let the matter rest. William Hague's most important task is to defuse the time bomb. He needs to find a way to negotiate a new relationship with the EU - tricky enough in itself - without destroying David Cameron's first few months in office either by alienating his fellow European leaders or leading his party to feel they've been betrayed.
Lord Tebbit last night made what he, no doubt, regards as a modest proposal:
"I hope that the Conservative Party will set out a negotiating brief that the next Conservative government will take to Brussels early in its next term and that it would within two years of the next election present to the British people the outcome of its negotiations.
"Then in a referendum the British people would decide whether to accept what was on offer or simply to leave the Union. We cannot drift on as we have been; it is not fair either to the British people or to the European Union.
"We need to show Thatcherite courage and determination to lead the country along that path."
It is a recipe for a bruising negotiation in which Britain would have few if any allies; a risky referendum in the mid term of a parliament that looks set to be dominated by the need to cut spending and raise taxes; and a possible vote for Britain to leave Europe. It's a recipe which, I suspect, will give a painful dose of indigestion to those who missed last night's dinner.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~13~RS~)
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
I'd quite like to see a United States of Europe.
Complain about this comment
So, finance experts denounce Gordon's plan, more than a million households will be in negative equity, the financial situation is twice as bad as the bank of England thought it would be back in May, Lord Mandelson is caught lying, and Jacqui Smith wants us all to have to produce a passport just to buy a phone.
So, what do we focus on? The opposition and their position on Europe, and how it might be affected if this, if that and if the other.
Is this really the most serious political issue out there at the moment, or is it just the easiest one to paint the tories in a bad light?
Complain about this comment
If there was a free vote on the matter we all know the UK would be leaving the EU.
And would that be such a bad thing? Maybe economically but there is a far bigger issue here. FREEDOM.
We are currently living under an EU dictatorship we are ruled by people we have no control over and every day our own government is marginalised and unable to effectively make national legislation as it might contradict brussels.
Well who are these people? I didn't vote for them, i didn't see an election campaign similar to the US asking the 'nation of europe' to vote.
So why do we tolerate this? I'd rather live in poverty then as a sheep with no say and no power.
Complain about this comment
I would like to see the pound go and for Britain to get into the Euro. Surely this is the time to go for it.
We cannot exist for much longer. Surely, this would be Gordon's historic moment.
The pound is finished and only exposes us to the vagaries of the market. If Gordon owes Europe anything for bailing us out then surely this is it. Get into the Euro Gordon, now. If not now it will be never.
Gordon must show leadership, that would win labour a great victory in the forthcoming general election. Britain in the Euro. Now!
Complain about this comment
re: 1, sagamix
As long as Britain gets as much out of it as it puts in, so am I.
Complain about this comment
I see the Tory bloggers are out in force this morning, Grawth. There is more to life than the problems facing Gordon Brown, you know. Unfortunately, we too deserve some scrutiny.
Complain about this comment
Ahh Europe, wasn't Peter M an EU trade minister before he became part of the CURRENT government and hasn't he a bit of a reputation for telling the odd porky pie.
It's all very nice looking into the crystal ball about the next government, but what about the unanswered issues with the CURRENT one.
Complain about this comment
It's not really a difficult proposition.
The majority of native citizens of this country - if anyone bothered to ask us - have no problem with being in a European free trade zone. What we do not want is to pay one of Her Majesty's pennies to support the sounder of corrupt self appointed swine who have already formed a United States of Europe on the sly. Nor do we wish to be ruled by laws imposed on us by an unaccountable bureaurocracy rather than our own elected represenatives.
The minority who support our supine capitulation to this ever expanding monster do so out of naked self interest. It's high time that we stopped inviting them to the debate.
Complain about this comment
So, more evidence that the old NuLabour spin doctors now back in power (Mandelson & Whelan) have once again taken control of the BBC's news output.
Why highlight old non-issues when there are far more important stories around?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
English Euro-sceptics amaze me. Sterling has just been devalued by 25% and more to come as interest rates plummet. The UK has been left behind as far as investment in infrastructure, and living standards are concerned, compared to our established European partners. Its all due to the need of these pathetic Westminster politicians to hoard as much power as possible. In its relations with the Common Market, the EEC, then the EU, the UK has been disadvantaged at every turn, by its reluctance to be at the heart of the Union.
Isn't it pathetic that the UK needs strict border controls? British pensioners have to trek through a portacabin in Calais... because successive governments have failed dismally to face up to the issues, whereas there is complete freedom of movement without passports in most of Europe.
It would indeed be a brave PM to now take us into the Euro, after the recent devaluation. The UK should have joined it at the outset, as did all the other sensible members.
Lets face it, we just have bad government here. No matter whether its from real Tories or New Labour tories. The entire constitutional system needs a shake up. Its a mess. Better still, demolish it and start again, from the top down, or the bottom up. It hasn't served us well. Of course, that will not be possible, because the cosy two-party system guarantees each party a turn in power, no matter how bad a mess they made. (e.g. Labour by 1979, and the Tories by 1997).
Turkeys, who have grown fat on the system, and that's what they are, will not vote for Christmas.
The electorate have an impossible choice at the next election - one useless lot or another.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I don't mind what the Tories announce, provided that they aren't totally deceptive liars on the matter as Labour turned out to be. Bad judgement by Brown and Milliband for misleading the country over Europe - those of us who want a referendum will not forget.
But then Brown keeps banging on about global governance and a new world order.
A Conservative MP recently proposed a bill which would have made it neccesary (for the sake of "trans-pear-ency") to state whether each piece of legislation passing through the UK Parliament was generated by a British politician or generated by the fascist state of Europe. The bill was voted down - mostly by Labour MPs and their LibDem cohorts.
Because what Labour and the LibDems do NOT want the British public to know is that the E.U. already makes 70-75% of our laws. Even with European elections, the vote is pretty worthless as MEPs vote in blocks on vast swathes of legislation that they haven't had time to read.
In two weeks time, the country will remember the millions who died saving this country from European fascism. People rightly wearing their poppy with pride should vote at the next general election to honour the sacrificies made by our grandparents by similarly saving us from sleepwalking into a fascist European political superstate.
Trade and friendship, not political governence. They'll scare the population by saying that we'll lose jobs... but we can trade with the Commonwealth, we can trade more freely with the rest of the world from OUTSIDE the European superstate.
The Labour Government is already compiling easy to access databases for the next socialist extremist...
Lest we forget.
Complain about this comment
'Ticking time bomb' is a very good description of the issue because it indicates that the problem will not go away by simply ignoring it. The heart of the issue is that the EU is a mechanism by which one government can enter into commitments at EU level which then become binding on its successors. As time goes by the volume of these EU commitments rises without end all the time shrinking the area within which the Westminster parliament is free to legislate. The inevitable long-term consequence is that a time will come (perhaps decades hence) when the British parliament will be inhibited from acting in all areas the areas where the EU now has competence (i.e. almost all areas) and our national elections will be reduced to deciding which party sends representatives to Brussels to be outvoted and return to tell us that we must live under EU law that we never wanted in the first place but cannot change through our votes.
In principle this ratchet restricts the room for action of both main parties but it is a more serious for parties of the right because they tend to believe in a smaller role for the state. The EU gives parties of the left a tool whereby if they can agree on a big-state measure just once at EU level then it becomes binding on all future governments of the right. Therefore the task of defusing the time-bomb will almost certainly fall to a right-wing government.
The best way to defuse the time-bomb is to make EU law subordinate to national law in all areas beyond the common market. Governments that voted for measures approved at EU level should be required to implement them, but should not be able to commit their successors. Voters must be able to elect new government capable of disowning the EU measures that were agreed to by the previous government or democracy will inevitable shrink to vanishing point in due course. If reforms such as this cannot be agreed to by our EU partners then the EU is not a club in which we should wish to remain.
Complain about this comment
What on earth has Europe got to do with anything just now? Is this what Nick Robinson calls resisting pressure and then posting a load of old tosh whom nobody is interested in reading.
A pathetic blog post IMHO.. surely there are more important matters just now related to recession and reposessions, job losses, and peoples spending power being dramatically cut.....matters that really affect voters.
Complain about this comment
4 TAG not very often we agree but we certainly do on this one.
With the exception of the bailing out bit.
Complain about this comment
If the Torries do not promise the vote they will be seen as the same as Labour, LIARS.
I would not only expect the tory party to promise the vote but no matter what the Irish do, we are entitled to vote on the EU.
As a lot of people now understand keeping a small house is much more manageable than keeping a big one.
We need to keep our country, not sell out to the EU.
The EU did not stop us getting into this mess, in fact it added to it.
What we pay to the EU we can not afford.
Rattified or not we must vote.
Nothing is written in blood, YET.
Complain about this comment
Crowperson,
Yes I'm Tory, so what? The point is this story only becomes an issue IF the Irish decide to vote again, and following that IF the vote is before the British elections, and following that IF they actually vote yes to Europe.
So my point is that this story is so full of hypothetical bits, when there are much more pressing concerns at the moment, that it really was a poor choice to run with it.
Complain about this comment
As usual, Norman "OYB" Tebbit has the question the wrong way round. Surely the other member-states of the European Union should be preparing for a referendum asking for the UK to leave, along with Poland. Then the Union could get along with tackling some REAL questions, like global financial regulation, climate change, and the rise of the BRICs. That would leave Britain whimpering nicely on the sidelines, muttering ruefully about no longer "punching above its weight".
Complain about this comment
Many are calling for an early election, others shouting 'Brown out!'? So since when has it been irrelevant to address the question of how coherent, cohesive, electable the Tories are or are not? But this is already a theme on the blog. We are here to discuss political news, not to expect Nick to solve an economic crisis.
The Tory old guard raise the EU issue; their young Euro-sceptic leader did so a few weeks ago. I doubt Cameron will be able to deliver on a any expectations on withdrawal from EU. Can he afford to be identified with them?
The ECB is out of line with national banks on financial rescue. The pound has fallen against the Euro. Brown has deftly dodged calls for a Lisbon referendum, and Lisbon will not go away; the EU will see to that.
Right now Europe may just be wallpaper, but when a party is saying, like Oscar Wilde, either it goes or I do (and Lady Thatcher did go), that's a hostage to fortune
Complain about this comment
Given the state of the Euro - the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain) are dragging down the rest and causing some concern around the EU - a great deal of infighting within the EU will happen in the near future.
Ought to give the Tories a bit of a boost.
The EU seriously needs to get itself in order - the state of the plummeting Euro, lack of transparency, the sheer amount of corruption - and the Lisbon Treaty and the Tories differing views on Europe are mere sideshows in a circus starting to go off the rails.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
At the moment the EU is pretty much the last thing that I care about.
More important to most people I think is the fact that the uk economy is going down the pan, and that the government's plans to get us out of recession:
a) won't work
b) are being dithered over
c) will do more harm than good
d) don't address any of the fundamental economic problems
Can the BBC concentrate on what could easily be the most deep/long/damaging recession we've had for 100 years, and the government's pathetic attempts to get us out of it?
I'd like the BBC to ask Brown some questions of basic economics, and to hold him to account for the mess we're in, and to stop him getting away with simply saying:
"Not my problem; it's global. nothing to do with me. Don't worry, it'll all work itself out in the end. I'm just going to sit here and do nothing."
Complain about this comment
Nick,
it is a ticking bomb--is a sort of tough word to used...but it is the true!!
Complain about this comment
It might prove to be academic if the credit crunch worse case scenario takes effect and the eastern Europe economies implode. Basically you would have an all out humanitarian aid flowing to these countries, that would put some of the haunting pictures of African famine into the shade. Assuming of course that some economies will still be producing food etc.
I cannot see the EU coping with this, after all they were pretty inept in the western Balkans until NATO showed the way.
Complain about this comment
The UK has several problems concerning Europe, most of which are of no fault of the EU.
1) Most people have no idea what the EU does for us. I like to think I have a better grasp of politics than most, but all you ever seem to hear from the media is stuff like everyone subsidising French farmers and directives about straight bananas. If i don't know much, then I daresay your average reader of a certain newspaper owned by a certain Australian gentleman would have the slightest clue.
2) A lot of people still haven't gotten over the fact that England no longer rules the seven seas and that the British Empire crumbled decades ago. There is still this idea that Britain should, and must, be one of the major players in the world, and that "handing control to Brussels" would make Britain insignificant.
3) There is still a lot of xenophobia, mainly in regards to "The French" and "The Germans". People think an EU superstate would essentially be France and Germany telling us what to do, and the idea of letting the Frogs or the Krauts tell us what to do just isn't cricket. There's a war to be won don't you know? England expects. Careless talk costs lives. Hmmm, where's my Anderson shelter gone?
Of course, these problems are fueled by the media, who love using the EU for a good wind up. If we had more informative and balanced reporting, perhaps the masses could be educated properly about Europe. As it stands, it is too dangerous to put a referendum to the British people, because the vast majority are too ignorant (not always through their own fault) to make an informed decision. Obviously that's exactly what the Tory party want.
One thing is for sure: I would rather be part of a United States of Europe than our current position as the 51st state of the USA.
Complain about this comment
To all the above posters complaining that the BBC shouldn't focus on an issue like Europe, are you saying that they aren't focusing enough on issues like the credit crunch??? I certainly haven't noticed any lack of coverage of the crisis. In fact it's often very difficult to find coverage of anything else!
Surely there's room in public debate for a number of topics. Obviously the credit crunch is the main story at this time hence the fact that the majority of news coverage is rightly focused upon it. However, this is a blog which surely means that Nick is allowed to look beyond present day issues occasionally.
With the Tories highly likely to be in power in the next year or two, Europe is guaranteed to be one of the most significant issues of the next few years. I utterly fail to understand those who talk about leaving the EU while still castigating Nick for bringing up an insignificant story. Sounds fairly significant to me!
Complain about this comment
#15 Freeborn-John wrote:
"The best way to defuse the time-bomb is to make EU law subordinate to national law in all areas beyond the common market."
That is utter drivel. You read too much tabloid nonsense. The entire point of the EU is the pooling of sovereignty by its members, for the common good, ie, the good of all its members and their inhabitants. And it has been good for us. No UK government could take us out of the EU, it would be a disaster. UKIP lives in cloud cuckoo land.
Successive British governments have tried to 'pick and choose' which bits they want, by negotiating opt-outs. For example Blair and Brown opted out of having more protection for employees.. people like you and me whose work produces the wealth. The right wing press, which represents the wealthy upper classes in this country, just don't tell us the truth, so we have ordinary people believing that the EU is an abomination.
What it has achieved is raise the standard of living of every single one of its members, most of them to greater levels than the UK, because we've been dragging our heels.
At present, the UK is in a much worse position to weather the recession, because it chose to keep more economic independence, and not enter the Euro. You and I will have to pay for that mistake, in significantly higher taxes for a decade or more. If you want to blame anyone, blame the Tory Euro-sceptics and the tory New Labour clowns who have got us in such a mess.
Complain about this comment
As usual, the Tories are totally divided over the European question. During there eighteen wasted years in office, they did nothing other than make fools of themselves over the issue. Things are not likely to change. Re-negotiate important Treaties? they will be laughed out of court.
Why is it that Cameron has nothing to say about important matters? all we ever hear is how much he enjoyed himself at Eton,and his time spent with the Bullingdon gluttons.
Complain about this comment
herb_igone again.
I'll read these other postings later, and distil from them anything I need to respond to.
meanwhile, I can't wait to have a chance to vote on Europe, although to be honest in the current climate I wouldn't expect any chance.
We'll be out like a shot. That would immediately save us billions that we spend on the CAP, and we can spend some of that on support for our farmers, and still have funds left over.
Then we can get rid of the common fisheries policy, re-instate our territorial limits, and recbuild our fishing fleet to fish in our own waters. That would please all the people who live on the edge, including of course Scotland.
We could repeal the human rights act, which is proving really troublesome in handling certain undesriable residents.
Let's see, what's left? Trade. We buy more from them than they do from us. Where's the downside from our perspective? If they choose not to trade with us (undemocratic, costly, oh what am I thinking?, of course they will) then we trade with somebody else. Bound to be somebody who will supply us with whatever we get from europe.
Anybody I haven't offended I wonder?
Complain about this comment
I have to agree with (2.). This is the kind of blog post I'd expect to see during a quiet period, not when the country is facing financial meltdown. Nick, why are you continuing to focus on the conservatives when Labour has dozens of policy areas in which it needs to be brought to task?
eg.
- an economy based on huge amounts of debt, PFI, quangos, etc
- immigration out of control
- rolling back public freedoms and the creation of a client state
- public sector hampered by a beuracratic target culture despite record spending
- pensions timebomb
the list just goes on and on ...
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"As a lot of people now understand keeping a small house is much more manageable than keeping a big one."
Yes machinehappydays, like Iceland.
Complain about this comment
Oh Dear!
So what your saying Nick, is this...
IF the Irish chose to hold another vote &
IF they vote yes to Lisbon (contrary to current opinion polls) then the Tories will have a problem....
Hmmm! Don't the Tories and Labour have enough current troubles for you to blog about??
Complain about this comment
Nick,
actually some of the contributors have got it right. I think that you have seriously lost the plot. Where has this one come from, as our American friends would say this is justy so left field.
What does Gordon think, I can't wait for PMQs tomorrow. When being asked about the parlous state of the economy we can ex[pect answers along the lines of and what is your position on Europe Mr. Cameron.
Divisions in the conservative party whilst I, Gordon show true leadership. Come on Nick this is a pathetic story, next we'll be having stories about how you have the most succesful blog in the history of the BBC, over 1000 comments.
In the meantime America attacks Syria, no comment from the PM. Turkey attacks Iraq, no comment. Deaths in Afghanistan, a totally failed State, this is just so sad.
Complain about this comment
Well Nick, I don't think you've got the reaction your and your playmates were looking for.
Even you must have realised that there is an overwhelming view, well certainly amongst the bloggers here, that is healthily anti-government, and pro-freedom of choice (however you wish to define it) and fundamentally opposed to ceding more control to europe.
Once more you have successfully missed a major talking point at the expense of muddying some waters, and trying to put the consrevatives under the cosh. Good old spinners out in force again.
Now, what about pensions, the cost of living, falling house prices, worrries about having a job, can I find a wealthy friend to invite me on his yacht in the med for a few weeks at christmas?
See, none of the above subjects affect anybody at Westminster, they've got it all covered.
Complain about this comment
Ah the little englanders are out in force today, getting their Thatcherite suspenders in a twist.
1. It's absolutely right to focus on the Tories, because Labour are about to enter the wilderness. We all know their weaknesses and nothing is going to keep them in power. But what do we know about the Tories? Their skeletons are still in the closet (don't expect us to be naive and believe they don't have any).
2. Europe is an issue that won't go away - unless we bite the bullet and accept that the price of economic stability is a lessening of national sovereignty. And exactly what do we want that sovereignty for? The pleasure of lurching from one rubbish government, elected by a minority, to the next? Joy.
Complain about this comment
#20
Whoo hoo, way to go. When you see a united response from Europe about what action to ACTUALLY take on those matters, do push the gates of hell open and start walking on the water.
Complain about this comment
This really takes the biscuit we go from Osborne, now to the conservatives on the EU who cares about this issue now, and why guess what Cameron is thinking and what Hague will do. If they had made some kind of announcement on the EU then I could understand it.
We all know if there were a referendum, as we were promised what the answer would be so why is this an issue for the Conservative party its more an issue for the Labour party.
Sorry to keep saying this but with all the problems we have this is a particularly silly thing to be reporting.
We really must have fair reporting and stop this Labour bias, you seem to be open to pressure all of it coming from the BBC and Labour.
Complain about this comment
The Old Tories gang say:-"We need to show Thatcherite courage and determination to lead the country along that path."
You are quite right about the Tories, Nick.
The Tories were, are, and will always be the party to represent the richest, and the ones that are against change, no matter what that change may be!
Divided they lost, and divided they will loose yet again.
One tried them in the 90s and saw my friends loose their business, their jobs in the city, including their homes. That was the time of a recession manufactured by the Tories. There was no Global depression as we have today, no country was going bankrupt, no Global financial turmoil of the scale that we have today, but still, we went through some of the toughest times of our lives, thanks to cuts instead of investment in our services, even though they raked billions and billions in privatisation, including our Oil reserves.
Now the old guard are out yet again, smelling of mothballs. They are their only solace, but also division.
Have they changed? No!
Any chance of a victory? Yes, there is, but with someone like Ken Clarke at the helm, not Glossy Mag. boy Dave!
Complain about this comment
29: "For example Blair and Brown opted out of having more protection for employees.. people like you and me whose work produces the wealth."
Pro-EU nonsense. If the EU is so great for employees, why is the RMT - led by
Complain about this comment
Those who say that the EU issue is less important than the financial crisis are confusing urgency and importance. Which has the greatest impact on your life today, the 1991-1992 recession or the 1992 Maastricht treaty that established European political union? Government needs to be to able chew gum and talk at the same time, i.e. resolve both issues and more.
If an incoming Conservative government does not address the EU issue in its first term why would it be more likely to address it in a second term when its majority may be lower and people will ask why did you go along with it until now? If the Conservatives don't act then we will likely have to wait an entire electoral cycle (perhaps until 2035-40) for a new incoming government prepared to grasp the EU nettle and by that time the one-way ratchet to an undemocratic super-state will be very far advanced indeed.
Complain about this comment
29: "For example Blair and Brown opted out of having more protection for employees.. people like you and me whose work produces the wealth."
Pro-EU nonsense. If the EU is so great for employees, why is the RMT - led by Bob Crow - so opposed to the current situation? Indeed, the front page of the RMT website at this very moment contains details of a union demonstration against EU rail privatisation. They have also been demonstrating about the effects of EU legislature on sea faring trades.
But don't take my word for it, dear reader, look yourself - http://www.rmt.org.uk/
At least one significant union opposes what is happening on Europe and demands a referendum. But then we can't have DEMOCRACY within the European fascist state, huh?
Complain about this comment
Here's something for all you europhiles to note:
Mr Sarkozy has some economic plans for France (not Europe)
A "strategic investment fund" is part of his plan.
"One cannot allow speculative funds from elsewhere to buy up our enterprises cheaply," he said.
Now let me think, who is it that owns a major part of our electricity distribution? ED something or other, can't think where they come from.
So it's Ok for them to own industries in other countries, but not the other way round.
Get with it boys, if you play in europe all the rules get skewed against you. Time to get out.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
39
Thanks you for your points. Totally concur.
Complain about this comment
To braveSouter at 30
I dont mind you making a political point but do feel you should do it using tolerant language. To call all conservatives Bullingdon gluttons is both untrue and unpleasant the same could be said of many Labour people who attended private schools including Blair and I would object just as much.
Most people on here make valuable contributions to arguments without being insulting.
Complain about this comment
TAG - What are you talking about ?
" It is time for the pound to go " and "we cannot exist much longer"
How long do you think we will last when Germany is running our economic policy along with everything else ? look at Spain & Ireland ! and in what way did Europe bail us out ?
Complain about this comment
Wow, I had no idea, thanks Nick, I feel grateful to be warned ot his impeding crisis.
The shocking revelation that the Bruges Group contains many members who want out of Europe.
The stunning news that Norman Tebbit is, I can hardly bring myself to say it, Euro Sceptic!
The outrageous scandal that not everyone in the Tory party is wholehaeartedly Europhilic.
The terrible Cassandra vision of horrific nightmarish negotiations with the rest of the EU that might happen if everything happens the worst possible way that can be dreamed up in a Stephen King book.
....
Nick, the UK is full of serious stories happening right now. The most serious financial crisis since at least the 30's is now infecting peoples real lives at an alarmingly quick rate.
For heavens sake get your brain under control and understand that peoples homes are being repossed, peoples jobs are being lost, peoples finances are being crippled, peoples businesses are being crippled, and all are far more important and news worthy than donations NOT made and futures UNLIKELY to happen.
As our Dear Leader might have said;
These are serious times, and serious times require serious journalism.
Complain about this comment
Too much labour bias.
The majority of us think that a lot of what Labour says are porkies.
With Mandelson and Campbell back in harness, I for one now don't believe a single thing Labour says.
Mind you, I predicted how Labour would operate to family in 1997. They should have listened as they now complain inccessently.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
Your reporting is predictably unbalanced. Europe is also a ticking time bomb (actually they don't tick anymore as the timing devices are usually digital) for the Labour Party, or whatever it calls itself these days. We know that because the white-feathered, yellow-livered Gordon Brown refuses to put the question about the Lisbon Treaty to the electorate. He knows the result will be a resounding "no" to ratification.
Now, please get back to or, rather, start grilling properly the government about its continuing impoverishment and enslavement of the country. Perhaps you can make a start by asking why the Defence Intelligence Service is to be cut when the threat from terrorist attack and so-called rogue nations is, we are continually told, at a record high level.
Complain about this comment
I'm with Grawth here. What's the story about EU got to do with present situation?What's happened to Nick?
Complain about this comment
Only Way Up.
The 90'S recession was caused by our membership of the ERM , the forerunner of the Euro, a policy which both opposition parties at the time agreed on.
Complain about this comment
Bryant41 (29): The standard of living in European countries that are outside the EU is higher than those in the EU. And the average standard of living of West European EU countries that do not use the Euro is higher than the Eurozone. So the evidence is that being too close to the heart of Europe is actually bad for your wealth.
You say that my reform proposal is drivel, but why should EU law be superior to national law in political matters? After all there is no clause in any European treaty currently in force to that effect (the supremacy of EU law is only based on an ECJ ruling relating to the common market). If we accept the supremacy of EU law in all areas then agreements entered into by one British government at EU level (and even those we voted against but are required to accept under QMV) becoming binding in perpetuity on the British state (and not just the government of the day). The inevitably consequence will be that the range of issues that future British government can act in will shrink towards vanishing point along with the power of our votes to shape our lives.
Insults are a puny weapon against argument, so if you reply please address the substance of my point rather than throwing abuse.
Complain about this comment
Nick
Real issues please rather than hypothetical speculation about what might happen if the Tories win the next election, if Ireland does this, etc.
Please something about what is going on today such as Gordon's crazy level of borrowing, the state of the economy, the political choices to get out of recession etc
Has Peter Mandelson been writing this for you for the last 2 weeks. It does not look like you are in control any more
Complain about this comment
39. "Ah the little englanders are out in force today"
Yes, we're here to save the world from global fascism yet again.
How the non-Little Englanders keep sleepwalking into the same situation is beyond me. Did you not learn your lessons on complacency last time?
It's all just a little bit of history repeating.
Complain about this comment
The bits you've quoted from Lord Tebbit seem great to me. I'll settle for that sort of "Fix it or withdraw from it" policy. I'm not anti-EU, its saved us from fighting the French and Germans for a while, but as a tier of Government its obviously not working too well...
Lord Tebbits suggestion is another reason for a floating voter to vote Tory, provided DC and the shadow cabinet gets firmly and unequivocally behind that policy...
Complain about this comment
Tell me Nick, how many Labour dinners which had few MPs in attendance have you commented on in the last year?
Two if questions are at the heart of your blog post as borrowing rises to £60bn, Lord Mandleson looks like he'll be investigated by the House of Lords, and the pound slips to a five year low (to a similar level to Black Wednesday I might add).
I won't join the chorus of accusations of bias, but really, is this really a story worthy of the Politic Editor of the BBC right now?
Complain about this comment
I have a very unsophisticated opinion of a united Europe. Two names spring to mind, Napoleon and Hitler, both proponents of a United Europe.
Complain about this comment
I must confess to being ambivalent to the European Union.
Like most people I want close cooperation in Europe, enjoy the free market benefits but don't see why we need a superstate to do it.
What is needed is a referendum to clear the air and resolve this issue in UK politics for once and for all.
The British electorate have been subjected to too much misplaced enthusiasm, outright dishonesty and bogus promises over Europe that the atmosphere has been badly soured.
A referendum on membership will resolve all this for better or for worse.
Complain about this comment
I have a very unsophisticated opinion of a united Europe. Two names spring to mind, Napoleon and Hitler, both proponents of a United Europe. It gives me a creepy feeling when I think of them and some of the contemporary european leaders. We have enough tin pot dictators of our own, but we are protected to a certain extent by Magna Carta. Do we want to fall into the hands of real despots?
Complain about this comment
I would like to see the UK taking a more active part in the EU. It would also be nice if theEuropean parliament could have more power vis-a vis the Commission and that more decisions were made democratically rathe than by governments just rubber stamping them.
Complain about this comment
Even if some respondents want a break from issues related to the recession (and there are still many to explore i.e. the politics of negative equity, pensioner poverty, the adequacy of Brown's 'plan') then there are surely more pressing debates other than this?
We are essentially discussing what could possibly happen if Ireland votes a certain way and if the Conservatives win in 18 months time without the issue being resolved in the meantime.
Nevertheless, since the issue has been raised we may as well address it. I think the EU is condemned to become a non-entity within 20 or 30 years. It will still exist of course, in the sense of providing free movement of people and there will no doubt be certain laws and regulations left over from the heyday most notably carbon restrictions. The euro will obviously continue as well.
But there just isn't the political will let alone the public will across Europe (not just in the UK) to advance the EU into anything other than a symbolic institution of unity.
So I think it is destined to become the elephant in the room. Various government's will continue to applaud it but do nothing to encourage further integration and veto anything which is politically unpopular (which is anything remotely linked to further integration).
Complain about this comment
I see the Tory bloggers are out in force again. It wouldn't be that the latest opinion poll has got up their craw. They can see the next election is going down the tubes.
Complain about this comment
No50. Some of my best friends are Conservatives, to imply that I was referring to them and other Tory voters displays remarkable political ineptitude.
Complain about this comment
The day the EU can provide a fully signed off copy of accounts for us to scrutinise, will be the day that I begin to consider it as a possible future direction for our country...
Of course, because of the widespread and systemic corruption within the EU where millions of Euros go missing on an almost daily basis, they haven't been able to do so for more than a decade. *THAT* says everything there is to know about the EU.
Complain about this comment
Yesterdays’ blog was broadly negative to the Government position. Today’s highlights a very relevant topic regarding an issue dear to many in this country, not just Thatcherites. Perhaps the Tory blogging Mafia are sore you have raised the issue because it reminds us all how Thatcher was treated. She couldn't trust her “friends” back in 1990 and Osborne’s friends can't trust him in 2008. (See we can all harp back to previous blogs if we try!!!)
On topic… the EU is very relevant to the current financial crisis despite the Tories bloggers protests regarding this subject. I am(was?) broadly in favour of the EU but the current crisis has shown that with financial independence we were able to move far more quickly than the European central bank, and we could focus our intervention where it was needed.
Within the euro-zone we would have had arguments about which banks should be supported, not to mention how it would affect French farmers and German manufacturing……
Tebbit also has a very valid point when it comes to public opinion. I know very few who would vote for membership of the EU in any format. Therefore were the Tories to offer such a referendum we would almost certainly be looking at a political hand grenade.
I agree with previous bloggers that there are too many ifs to be met before Cameron's hand will be forced. However, wouldn't it be refreshing if they came to a conclusion anyway. Some clear blue water on Europe would make for a lively election.
Complain about this comment
herb @ 31
Anybody I haven't offended I wonder?
I'd say that we're not so much offended as, how can I best put this ... disappointed?
Complain about this comment
"The standard of living in European countries that are outside the EU is higher than those in the EU. And the average standard of living of West European EU countries that do not use the Euro is higher than the Eurozone. So the evidence is that being too close to the heart of Europe is actually bad for your wealth."
Two words: Luxembourg, Ireland. Also, smaller first-world countries have higher GDP per capita than bigger ones.
Complain about this comment
"I have a very unsophisticated opinion of a united Europe. Two names spring to mind, Napoleon and Hitler, both proponents of a United Europe."
Yes, you do have a very unsophisticated mind. You fail to consider a mild-mannered French Christian imprisoned for resisting the Nazis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Schuman;
and a self-effacing advisor to Churchill and FDR:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Monnet
Keep it up!
Complain about this comment
Nick why have you become the mouthpiece for the failed Nu Liebour project? There are just as many critics of Europe in the Labour ranks.
You should be holding GB and his cohorts to account. After all GB promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and then changed his mind. Well, there is nothing new there!
I'm all in favour of a European free trade zone. Nada mas, nada menos. There cannot be a more profligate organization in the history of mankind than the EU. What's the point of having a national parliament if the majority of our laws are made by unelected, overpaid bureaucrats in Brussels?.
The EU needs to be overhauled from top to bottom. Taxpayers throughout Europe are getting fleeced by their governments and then a second time by Brussels.
The waste of taxes at both national and European levels is totally unacceptable. Instead of focusing on what the Tories might or might not think let's have a grown up debate about how our money is being spent or, in many cases, misspent. The fact that the EU's accounts have never been signed off tells me all I need to know.
Nick, it is time you ceased being the conduit for Mr Campbell and the Nu Liebour spin merchants.
You commentators never cease to tell us that "perception is everything". My perception of the BBC, and it would seem of many others, is that it is genetically biased in favour of Nu Liebour.
Complain about this comment
The Tories stock has been over-valued for months, and the hint of Thatcherism in Cameron's speech was the crack in the dam their critics were waiting for. Osborne's performance when he should've been coming up with a national business plan was just the cherry on the cake. They're making the strategic errors that Hannibal did that ultimately led to his losing the campaign against Rome and his eventual suicide.
The madness and rage that's gripped the Tories is the alcoholic looking hungrily at the whiskey bottle once too many times and being unable to resist. Meaningful change is never easy. The Tories weaselled their way in the door but have been unable to hold their breath for long enough. Thus, the Tory illusion of sobriety has been blown wide open. A few more sessions in electoral rehab is looking more certain than ever.
The path of zealotry and isolationism isn't very Zen Buddhist. But, once people start performing there's little you can do to stop them, so I'll just sit back and watch this particular bunch of monkey brains organise their bodies over the edge of the cliff. It's quite sad people do dumb stuff like that it but helps removes the risk of them forming a government and mutes their, so far, corrosive attitude.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
You really are off the pace now.
If you can honestly say you would write such a piece about a Labour dinner, with only three current MPs attending, a good quote from Roy Hattersley reopening old Labour wounds, while all of it being contingent on three other things all happening then fine, but I doubt you can.
You could, however, come clean and admit this is your response to Alastair Campbell's demand for the media, particularly the TV channels, to scrutinise the Tories as much as possible because "they are getting away with murder", sub text how dare you expose the failings of this government which claimed all the credit for the good times but finds it inconvenient when the wheels come off.
You are in distinct danger of debasing your coinage. There must be more interesting lines for you to push on both Labour and the Tories!
Complain about this comment
Nick please stop running interference for Labour. The challenge for any future government will be to keep hope alive long enough to build a future whilst they tax the public to hell to repay some of the 100's of Billions Brown is now borrowing.
I can't wait to see how Brown spins the 25% devaluation in the pound he's just orchestrated when people notice how much everything will cost in the spring. "If it aint hurting its not working?" " the pound in your pocket has'nt changed?" No he like you will probably blame a lady who was retired seventeen years ago
Complain about this comment
Re: 58
I would hardly discount "what might happen if the Tories win the next election" as a topic, even an incidental one, on a political blog. Some discounting! Does nothing matter any more? My condolences if your house has been flooded or something, but one looks for some perspective in these posts.
Complain about this comment
#71 saga
Careful, if I disappoint you by not being offensive enough I risk getting my post rejected.
I suppose, looking at this whole subject from the other side, that we tories ought to be flattered, since the soon to be opposition is totally rattled, and hitting out in a kind of frenzy normally associated with rats deserting a sinking ship.
Now I'm not suggesting you are a rat, in any way, but I do suggest you are in the position the band was in on the Titanic.
Complain about this comment
re: 75
What bilge.
Complain about this comment
If Britain has gained any advantage from joining the EU since the misguided Edward Heath led us into it , I wish someone would point it out. We buy considerably more from Europe than Europe buys from us, our parliament is subservient to Brussels, our politicians see Europe as a pension scheme after the electorate kick them out of office and operate accordingly while in office. Europe has now become what Hitler envisaged 80 years ago (apart from the death camps). A dictatorship without a head but with a massive bureaucratic body which is all powerful and unaccountable, which trancends national boundaries and makes laws without recourse to any form of democratic process. It now seeks to take over our armed forces and our defence. The record of the countries of mainland Europe as far as the defence of freedom is concerned is abyssmal. But for the immense sacrifice of the people of the USA in two world wars, throughout the second half of the twentieth century when communism threatened to destroy us and now when the world is at risk from the worst excesses of Islam, we would have disappeared into Churchill's oft quoted oblivion of a new dark age. As a free trade area, the EEC may have been a good idea, but as anything more, it is an affront to democracy.
Complain about this comment
Nick
Are you wating for mandleson to get back in the country before chasing him for more answers?
I can see the BBC might be short of people in russia, as they have so many in the USA (I have heard, that for some weird reason the BBC have more than any of the american news organisation...).
A bit of balance for bens article would be good:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7693919.stm
He presents it as the 'osborn yacht story' and minimises reference to mandleson.
Particulalry missing the fact(?) that mandleson stayed on the yacht for a number of days/nights - where as osborne just visited for drinks.
To be honest, I don't really see how mandleson cannot declare it -- it appears to be a gift of a weeks luxury holiday with partner all expenses paid...
And given that relationships can span many decades, as a minister it would be sensible for all contacts in (say) the 5 years preceeding appointment were declared under the ministerial code.
Look forward to you picking up on the mandleson thing again -- with all the time passing you must have masses of material - what a treat we have in store.
Complain about this comment
Nick Robinson, a lightweight journalist in my opinion, is clearly finding it difficult to find something immediately relevant to write about. How about telling us how Brown is going to get civil servants to share the pain the rest of us are going to suffer ref. pensions, etc. how is Brown going to tackle the unions on that one, Nick?
Complain about this comment
Nick,
now that you've eaten the scraps that have been thrown to you by the Downing St spinners, and you've had time lick your chops, and indulge in some post-prandial grooming, is it time to consider the whole position on Europe?
Namely only the LibDems are consistently pro-Europe for the entire country. SNP is, so far as they can see something for Scotland exclusively. Labour is hard to predict. was it onla last December that El Gordo snuck in after hours to sign up to the Lisbon treaty? I know it was in his post-election disgrace, and couldn't be seen anywhere, but still.
UKIP wants out, that's its only raison d'etre, and they can always count on my vote in European elections. The consrevatives can see some benefits IF there are negotiated improvements to the CAP and other cost items. I've already referred to inclement weather in the vicinity of Hell, so don't expect any of these trhings to actually happen.
So, what, dear Nick, is it that the Labour party expects to get from Europe that makes it essential for us to keep paying? And I do mean paying. We're broke now, should I really keep putting money into that particular pot? Do tell.
Complain about this comment
As I am sure Mr Robinson is well aware, it is becoming increasingly likely that the government will call a snap election in the Spring before the full effect of the recession takes its toll on their poll ratings and while they can still hope to get away with a hung Parliament at worst. Consequently, the first assumption in the above theory, that Ireland call a referendum before the next election, is not going to happen, so the whole point of the piece is questionable at best.
Not that that should stop there being a debate on what will undoubtedly be a very important issue in the next few years.
Complain about this comment
Back to Nick Robinson - both the Electoral Commission and the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner have now said that Geroge Osborne has no case to answer.
Will you, Mr. Robinson, now use your blog to publish an unreserved apology for your role in the unfounded and politically biased witchhunt?
If you refuse, I think those who object to your role should issue a complaint level one for bias via the BBC front page and then appeal the reply that we'll obviously receive so that it is dealt with by the BBC Trust.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/
Complain about this comment
I think it's right that Nick brings this to our attention. I don't particularly want a labour party (of any shade) in government, but no way would I want a government that was split down the middle about Europe.
I want a government that will promise to listen to the people about Europe and keep that promise - it is now very apparent that New Labour had no intention of keeping their election pledge.
Government should be able to multi-task, it is appears that this one can't.
Complain about this comment
The Labour 'boom' was a fake
And the country's about to break,
But all Nick will do
Is pick on the Blue
Instead of that Mandelson snake.
Complain about this comment
Some media folks openly admitted months ago that the Tories were being given a free ride and they were being cruel to Labour.
The last time I checked, governance included the whole of parliament and it's only fair that other parties are scrutinised.
The media seem to have woken up to their role, and talking a bad party into government isn't a good move.
Complain about this comment
Kaybraes said this:
"Europe has now become what Hitler envisaged 80 years ago (apart from the death camps)."
I must refer him or her to a definition of Godwin's Law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
After that, I suggest that he or she takes an insanity test.
Complain about this comment
i am not a lover of a european super state or the united states of europe becouse i still believe that the english are not european and it would ruin there identity to become part of it.
but i do like europes recognition of the small ethnic minority races that are dotted around the uk and europe, there is more needed to be done to give these ethnic minorities a measure of freedom and diversity.
a refferendum on europe is very long over due and it needs to be fair with both sides of the arguement having a free say.
do we go meekly into the mix of a greater europe or do we stand and fight them on the beaches, never surrender.
mrs T did do this sountry some good during her years in power and we should be glad of them and try and forgive the errors she made.
todays tory party needs to realize it was mrs T that gave the modern tories any hope of power.
Complain about this comment
75 Charles
I try, I honestly try and read your stuff, but it's like reading Ted Hughes, but without the humour.
Complain about this comment
It is a timebomb, indeed.
Also, consider this. Iceland is in dire straits at the moment and is seriously considering joining the EU. Since Iceland is part of EFTA and the EEA - some acronyms for you to go and look up there - and that EFTA has only 4 members. If Iceland leave it to join the EU that leaves just Norway and Lichtenstein as part of the EEA, which means it is barely viable as an agreement; they will either join the EU or have to negotiate bi-lateral relationships as Switzerland does.
So, if the Conservative's grand plan is behind the curve, it will not be able to join an EEA as it might have been dissolved. So bi-lateral relations would be the only way forward. So, will the UK be able to negotiate all it wants from a withdrawl from the EU? Will other EU countries keep open trade with the City and allow free trade of goods? I wouldn't be so sure, they would want to punish us.
Note that EEA countries implement 80% of EU legislation but have no MEPs, Commissioners or Civil Servants representing their interests during the legislative process.
So, I can see this great idea being a roaring success! God bless 'er and our great country, let's sail the seas and rule the waves. Tootle pip!
Complain about this comment
Is this the living dead of the Thatcherite era ranting in the dark - No - this is the true voice of the authentic Tory party - we and the electorate would wise to remember. These are the authentic Tories - the free market no regulation Tories. (No comment!)
It is really quite amazing that that women did so much (good???/ lasting damage?) to the Nation and the World. How did she do it? My guess is that it was because she was lawyer and a trained scientist (chemist), but most off all - the conditions were right for a change.
I recall it even surprised the Tory Grandees when she was chosen as leader. Democracy and even voting for leaders was, and indeed is, alien to most political parties when it comes to selecting a leader - leaders 'emerge'. The people were then persuaded to vote for the party, very much as an afterthought.
I recall Ted Heath efforts to get the UK into the EEC - a Tory party policy, rather than a Labour party one at the time. I think Margaret Thatcher's personality damaged the UK 's position in Europe rather than helping us. I believe that several of the negotiations should have had a better outcome if she had not been so obstructive and down right offensive to our friends.
All parties have a problem with the 'Europe issue'. These performers at Westminster like to think that they 'run' things as they did in the days and the Empire - they don't, they never did, but they believe they did. This false historic memory blinds them to the present realities of the World.
We are part of Europe, geographically and most importantly economically these are facts. We had better get used to it, and do the best we can together with our friends and neighbours. We should leave the isolationist ranters to shout in the wilderness where they belong- except it may well destroy the 'unity' of Cameron's Tory party! (And indeed Brown's Labour Party!)
Complain about this comment
The forces of Good shall prevail
And Gordon's pet project will fail.
Labour like to maintain
That they feel all our pain:
Yeah, and Clinton didn't inhale.
Complain about this comment
This blog now seems to be about Nick Robinson. When that other BBC journalist, as was, Alistair Campbell, became the story he at least had the good grace to quit
Complain about this comment
Nick you are pre-supposing that the EU and the eurozone will come through the present financial mess unscathed. Don't count on it - it is early days yet.
In fact, I have in front of me a copy of last Saturdays edition of the left wing intellectuals favourite newspaper. That quotes an MIT professor and advisor to IMF saying that if there is a sufficiently deep recession the eurozone may not survive. He then claims that European countries with large financial systems such as Switzerland, Sweden and the UK develop a regulatory framework which recognises that important institutions may have to be bailed out by Europe as a whole.
In other words, countries that are not in the eurozone will have to ride to the rescue. How ironic!
As for Conservative policy on a referendum, if my memory is correct at the party conference one of the shadow cabinet - either Hague or Cameron - did actually make that commitment.
And before anyone accuses me of being anti-European I am not. I do, however, separate Europe and the EU.
Complain about this comment
It's an historical fact that the two main driving forces within the EU are the only countries who sought to exert executive dominance over the whole territory.
Post WWII, the French (who'd been beaten up by the Prussians / Germans 3 times within 70 years), quite understandably wished to get economically and politically closer to their old enemies. Quite right too.
I was quite happy to be a part of a European Economic Community. I still can't see that has happened yet. If anyone had tried to buy Air France, when they were effectively bankrupt some years ago, does anyone really believe France would have permitted that?
It's easy to talk about a United States of Europe, as if it somehow equates to the USA. Easy if you don't understand the history of the USA.
The original "post war of independence" US was a fairly narrow strip of territory on the Atlantic seaboard. Expanded by the Louisianna purchase (extending from Canada down to New Orleans) when Napoleon was short of cash to fight the Brits and others in Europe. Increased by a fight with the Mexicans to claim huge additional territories (check out the San Franscisco, San Antonio legacy). Extended by buying Alaska from Russia.
Held together by a language imposed from the Atlantic core, with laws largely based on an English model (with regional variants).
And held together by a destructive Civil War.
With a French wife, many years working for a European company and subsequently dealing with organisations in most of the EU countries, I feel pretty European.
If anyone has a template for a Community that doesn't assume some "elite", unelected group (or hardly elected group like MEPs), without the smugness, I'd happily consider it.
If they can explain how a multi-language, multi-religion, multi-cultural population will elect a Head of Government, I'd be amazed.
Especially if laws, regulations and edicts can be subjected to a genuine public acceptance, not a "nod through" because it takes too much time to scrutinise the details.
Anti-European? No. Never have been.
Anti unfetered lawmakers? Absolutely.
Prob is that the idiots we currently have just can't control their desire to exercise power.
Hence the "farmers shouldn't use tractors when the soil is wet, to avoid soil erosion".
If there's a regulation, it should be regulated. Does that imply we should have "tractor usage monitors"? Allied to Met office officials to check on actual rainfall impacts, who pounce on folk who can't afford houses anywhere close to where they live, because prices have shot up so much?
Who the heck really cares whether you buy a kilo, pound or bucket load of vegetables?
Do you really think that others would employ folk to hover around in order to castigate the "offenders"?
Complain about this comment
Can Nick explain how Huw Edwards announced on the ten o'clock news that Osborne admitted to having made a mistake by " discussing donations" ? At no time did Osborne admit to discussing donations. He certainly admitted to making a mistake , but he never at any time mentioned donations, apart from saying that he would not take any future part in fundraising.
Complain about this comment
#57 Freeborn-John
The central obstacle to acceptance by the UK of the supremacy of EC law is the fundamental constitutional principle of Parliamentary sovereignty... this traditionally holds that Parliament has the power to do anything other than bind itself for the future. This has made it very difficult for the UK to transfer (on a permanent basis, according to the ECJ in Costa v ENEL) sovereignty.
The UK signed and ratified the EC Treaties in 1972, but to give internal effect to Community Law, an Act of Parliament was required.. The European Communities Act 1972. By Sections 2(1) and 2(2) of the Act, Community obligations are either given direct effect or implemented by means of Orders in Council or statutory instrument rather than by further acts of Parliament.
The principle of Parliamentary sovereignty is not undermined, and really cannot be, by the 1972 Act. It can be amended or repealed by a simple parliamentary majority, as can any other piece of legislation. If repealed, all EU legislation would be disregarded by UK courts, but of course, that would mean ceasing to be a member.
So, the UK implements this 'dualist' system of implementation of EU law, ie EU laws are not directly part of UK law in the sense of an act of parliament. (Contrast with the French monist approach where EU legislation essentially becomes part of French law).
The problem lies for you, and other Euro-sceptics, with the existence of the Union and the UK's membership of it, not just with the way that EU directives, regulations and decisions have an effect (direct or otherwise) in UK law.
Essentially, are we in or out?... is the question. If in, then pooling of sovereignty cannot be avoided, no use griping about it. If membership wasn't advantageous, its clear that the UK wouldn't be there at all. As for making a distinction between 'economic' or 'trading' legislation with 'political', that's farcical, because its all political.
If you're a member of a football team, and you keep not turning up, griping, or keep walking off every time something happens which you don't like, there will be consequences. First the team suffers, second, you won't be wanted, and third, your team-mates won't be around when you need them. That's why neither the Tories, Labour, or LibDems would pull us out, only crackpots would do that. The SNP, if Scotland gains independence, want to be fully part of the EU, as does Plaid Cymru, in Wales.
That leaves UKIP, which lives on a planet of its own invention, not the real world.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
how will you explain this tomorrow before PMQs. You have just so lost the plot, Lock and Load, what about the UK spending so many millions in foreign aid to India whilst they spend their money on putting satellites into space. This is bizarre.
How is that India can taker over what is left of the British car industry whilst we give them money. Come on Nick and the establishment, tell us what planet are you on.
Let's go yachting shall we. In the meantime where exactly is Nat Rothschild.
Complain about this comment
Nick
There were clear threats to blackmail osborne with revlations (whether true or false) into silence on certain matters. Something that hasn't really be commented on in the media (although noted by myself and on some other blogs).
Why, Nick, are you silent on certain matters?
Complain about this comment
The population despise
Labour's pusillanimous lies,
Their tricks and deceit
And their so-called 'elite',
We can't wait for their demise!
Complain about this comment
81. kaybraes
kaybraes,
I found your commments too true for comfort. I hope that those in power listen, but I doubt it.
90. tuairimiocht wrote:
That kaybraes. suggested that after reading a blurb taken from Google should...
After that, I suggest that he or she takes an insanity test.
Unfortunately, insulting people is all too common when no intelligent response can be found. Surely, the crude tuarimiocht means that kaybraes should take a test to verify sanity, because I've never heard of an "insanity test". Please let's keep this forum civilised, it is an old trick of dictatorships to declare that those who oppose them are decadent or insane.
Complain about this comment
"Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
Some media folks openly admitted months ago that the Tories were being given a free ride and they were being cruel to Labour.
The last time I checked, governance included the whole of parliament and it's only fair that other parties are scrutinised.
The media seem to have woken up to their role, and talking a bad party into government isn't a good move."
Last time I checked, it was not the BBC's place to give anyone a free ride or anyone a hard time, but to impartially report, not make the news.
You know, the whole reporting on events and letting the viewer, this informed, make up their own mind thing?
Nick Robinson is the senior political journo at the BBC, and is seen ad heard by millions. So when HE CHOOSES to place emphasis on the Bruge Group dinner, then we are entitled to draw our own conclusions on his and his employers judgement and the factors that seem to be influencing it.
Complain about this comment
Dear Charles_E_Hardwidge,
You quite correctly note that as Political Editor, Nick Robinson is duty bound to scrutinize not just the GVN but also the main opposition parties.
I for one, have no problem with this.
However, in his latest post, Nick is theorizing on what MIGHT haapen and what the Tory response MIGHT be to his ow hypothetical construction.
In doing so, Nick is not scrutinizing the current Tory position. Which is his job. Instead, he is engaging in nothing more than a parlour game of speculation and there is little journalistic craft in that. After all, I'm sure we could all dream up plausible nightmare scenario's for all the main political parties and fantasize how they might respond. But in doing so, would we actually learn anything? Remember, in Nick's analogy, the European issue is discussed in a vacumn. But political decisions are rarely settled without an eye on the bigger picture i.e. what is the size of Mr. Cameron's majority, how is the economy fairing etc...
These are relevant, because with a larger majority and a settled economy, Cameron would have more room for manoeuvre. Change the variables and in all likelyhood, the Tory response would change to suit the new reality. As such, Nick's hypothesis while possibly interesting, is nonertheless pointless.
Complain about this comment
Perhaps our role in a future Europe will be much different than it is today.
The oucome of this financial crisis could leave the whole of the European dream in tatters
After all this is an out dated idea froim 60 years ago. The world has now moved on in a big way.
The concept then could not have envisaged globalisation and the internet
Starting from scratch would be no bad thing and then we could become what we voted for initially.
A common market of independant countries and not a European state.
Complain about this comment
Blimey I only said the CEH was like Ted Hughes but without the humour
Complain about this comment
John from Hendon.
We are part of Europe economically , but so is Russia, we need not be part of Europe politically.
A bilateral trading agreement would suit both parties fine
Complain about this comment
Whilst again this blog is simply another smokescreen to attempt to defer attention away from the shambles that is our government, Europe nonetheless remains an important issue. Though why Nick once again focusses solely on the Tories viewpoints is somewhat suspicious...but that's another story.
For me, the most important factor here is that Labour promised us the referendum back in 2005, and then abdicated on a technicality, using the bizarre excuse the treaty in question now had a different name.
Not only did this action essentially amount to electoral fraud, it was a blatant slap in the face to democracy itself, and that the government have been allowed to get away with it is a disgrace.
I know all the liberal fascists in Westminster and on here would love it if only "approved" people were allowed to vote on such matters, given that they could be ensured to give the "correct" answer. But a matter of such national importance can only possibly be decided via a referendum of the electorate and it's insulting to suggest otherwise.
Personally I think there are pros and cons to both sides of the argument, but that's for the europhiles and the eurosceptics to campaign about prior to the referendum.
Post #31 raises many good arguments in favour of leaving the EU altogether. I'm yet to hear any such sensible suggestions from the pro-Euro lobby. To be honest, all I generally seem to hear from them are patronising asides, which leads me to suspect that they are motivated by self-interest rather than doing the right thing for the people of the country.
Complain about this comment
#95 pttp
You should really bring out a pocketbook of your limericks ;) In fact, maybe they should be leaflet dropped at the House Of Commons!
Complain about this comment
This is a left over, from the previous NR post.
C_E_H
"You're just being hyper-critical again - you jump on thngs too hard and lack perspective. Can't discuss anything with someone when they get like that."
Charles, all I posted was that Polly Toynbee wrote "Gordon Brown seems unable to stop saying things so blindingly untrue that you wonder how he gets the words out."
Not my words.
I wouldn't have introduced it, if you hadn't brought up her article. It seems a little sad that a Labour comfort-blanket has such a poor opinion of the Blessed Leader.
You never discuss, or debate, anyway, as you have stated many times.
I accept that some stuff you write has a core of reality.
I may tend to jump on things fairly hard. But I guess you do that too, in your work and wider life. You certainly do on here.
Doesn't mean that you have to "diss" people with opposing views. I've jumped in hard on many occasions - then recognised that I've been wrong. Re-thought stuff. Re-built bridges.
Everyone has a different perspective.
I've been in organisations that produced a nurturing environment where ideas could be kicked around. And found some wonderful people with either good or bad (normally commercial or dreadful) ideas. Me included.
Just don't feel like I have lived through such a deliberately, scientifically ignorant, government before, in my lifetime.
And, it's a fact that over the last decade or so, with local and EU legislative input, there are more visible or unknown rules and regs than have ever appeared previously.
And all that stuff about wind power as the saviour to meet unachievable EU sustainable energy targets must surely get you a bit uptight, too?
Complain about this comment
Another 6 months of captain Browns seamanship and 1 pound will be worth 1 Euro.
Might as well jump ship then.
Complain about this comment
tuga @ 79
I'm not suggesting you are a rat, in any way, but I do suggest you are in the position the band was in on the Titanic.
Well that sounds a compliment of sorts (and they played on etc) so thank you.
To be honest, I'd say it's more that the global economy is going down to where the sun don't shine, rather than any particular political party - and the blame for that lies principally with the excesses of unrestrained capitalist free enterprise.
There aren't too many winners here, at least not in the short term.
Complain about this comment
#98 very sensible and balanced verdict - I'm sure you'll be castigated as a racist before very long!
Your point about the unelected elite is spot on - how on earth could that possibly be democratic? Let's not forget that this is the organisation that apparently saw nothing wrong with Mandelson's dodgy dealings, who knows how deep the well of corruption goes?
Complain about this comment
Re: 72
Doesn't Luxembourg receive one of the highest net payments from the EU and couldn't that be one of the reasons for the high standard of living there.
Also, the evaluation by Switzerland of EU membership found that it would cost six times more that the current bi-lateral agreements.
Complain about this comment
2# Grawth
Congratulations
It took only the second post of the blog for you to press the "Don't put the scrutiny spotlight on the Tories" panic button.
Well done., but hey you have plenty of support to deflect attention back on the BBC or Nick Robinson.
Complain about this comment
I really don't know why you bother Nick,if this is the best you can do,don't bother.
Once again awful.
Complain about this comment
Remember Brown's minions talking about wind-power,as the solution to meet EU targets (driven by Blair and co.)?
So we build thousands of these ineffective, cost-inefficient structures, to ruin a coastline. Provide obstacles to shipping. Haven't the capacity to deliver ourselves. (It seems that nobody has within the time-frame that Brown and the Miliband talk about.)
Talk about Don Quixote and the windmills.
Where's the real UK investment in renewables?
Where's Gordon's investment in the future?
Complain about this comment
1. Sagamix "I'd quite like to see a United States of Europe."
A United States of Europe with a President elected by the people of each country?
With those people voting for a politician that they know - generally one of their countrymen / women?
Which EU country has the largest population?
Complain about this comment
I presume Nick Robinson is a fully paid up member of NuLabour and as such slavishly follows the titbits to him by Mandy and co>You are supposed to be a commentator Nick,you aren't supposed to take sides.
Complain about this comment
What about the Labour position on Europe?
As they are in power I would have thought that an expose on the deep divides amongst the Labour party members would be more appropriate?
£25.00 to children in need if you run one with the same determination as this blogg.
If you don't - please donate £25.00 yourself.
Easy Money
Complain about this comment
#89
One could argue, Mr Hardwedge, that it equally isn't the media's job to keep a bad party in government, eh?
Complain about this comment
To braveScouter at 68
Never for a moment did I suggest you meant Conservative voters.
As to political ineptitude you would know of course.
Complain about this comment
brynt- The U.K. did not join the European Union, it joined a trading agreement, the British people have never been asked if we wanted to join a union of nations beacause we would have said no.
Complain about this comment
In principle, I am against Britain being part of a Single European currency and of a 'United States of Europe'.
I am, however, aware that many of my countrymen think differently.
We should, therefore, debate the topics and then put these options - options which would irrevocably change the constitutional nature of the United Kingdom to the people to determine by referenda.
What galls me, is that knowing that the great majority of UK citizens are against both the 'euro' and 'ever closer union', the EU and UK governments (of both major parties, with the support of the Lib-Dems) have stealthily advanced towards these 'goals' while denying us a say.
It is time that this issue was brought to a head. It is more important to the survival of the UK as an independent state than any economic crisis - no matter how severe.
Complain about this comment
David Davis was a problem for the Tories.
Labour borrowing is a problem for the Tories.
Europe is a problem for the Tories.
Just as well the Country is prospering & has no problems or Labour might have some problems as well.
Biased Biased Corporation.
Complain about this comment
Charles,
"Some media folks openly admitted months ago that the Tories were being given a free ride"
Care to name any names?
Complain about this comment
Short-term, we may face some difficulties leaving the EU, but long term, we will have full self-determination for the people of the UK. If the people decide to leave the EU (if we are ever trusted to have a referendum), thats democracy. The Irish situation proves that a referendum to the EU means forcing something through by asking the people to vote until the desired result is achieved. that is non-democratic
Complain about this comment
#100 brynt41
"(Contrast with the French monist approach where EU legislation essentially becomes part of French law)."
There are differences, for sure.
One major difference is that, even if the French system perforce introduces an EU law or regulation, it does not mean that the French will impose the effective implications of that stuff.
Implementation is far different from recognition.
I wouldn't challenge an individual claim, but some while back, it was commented that the UK was way ahead of France in the implementation of EU law and directives.
A law without some system of overseeing and enforcing it is simply a piece of paper that a politician can wave around.
Just a waste of time and money.
The more laws and regulations are imposed, in theory the more people you need to monitor and enforce it.
Don't you think we have enough regulations? Do you really believe that others enforce laws with the ardure that the Brits do?
Complain about this comment
#96 ianperfect
I was thinking the same thing - Nick has become the subject.
Today another BBC editor is under fire today regarding his lack of judgement. The norm? I do hope not.
..and Nick, perhaps the Conservative leadership had better things to do than attend a dinner at this time and I quote:
'It's the economy,stupid'.
Complain about this comment
re: 109 and 125
Swanadoni both of your comments have been moderated way ahead of the queue... do you have some sort of special relationship with the mods or do you just not have as many black marks on your record as we do?
We demand answers, Beeb!
Complain about this comment
It seems a little odd that, since 3:41, only two postings have been moderated.
Maybe the Beeb has redeployed staff to make sure that Ross and Brand stick a little closer to the standards that most posters adhere to...
Complain about this comment
i respect mrs thatcher but it was her policies of de regulatinon and free market economy ..bla bla bla ,which led us to where we are now .
i say to banks today 'get on your bikes'
Complain about this comment
What I would like to see is Nu(Improved)Labour actually giving us the free vote as laid out in their manifesto at the last General Election.
No chance there then...!
Complain about this comment
Nick,
"The Tory leadership did not attend last night's dinner to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the Bruges speech."
Question is, Nick - did you?
Or was this a re-warmed insight into an event you read about?
The EEC issue almost tore the Labour party apart.
Major suffered because he had a very slim majority including a small number of totally anti-EU MPs.
The "Constitutional Treaty" saw even the French fail to gain a popular approval. Even though it had been guided into existence by a Frenchman.
It is simply NOT a party issue. It's about the populations of many nations and whether they enjoy paying for a bunch of elitist, out of touch guys and gals who (like a lot of HR departments in big firms) have the time and salary to sit around making up b***** silly rules.
Tony B was fervently anti some European bits. But then again he was a CND supporter.
You can love being a European, without wanting a bunch of bright-but-out-of-touch people dictating why the citizens in Kos, Sicily, Madeira and the Isle of Wight should have a common way of life.
Complain about this comment
re: 108, HarryPagetFlashman
Wash your mouth out with soap! I'm a big fan of Ted Hughes--- he's the subject of my (as yet unfinished) PhD. To compare him to CEH is a terrible slur on his character and beliefs!
Complain about this comment
Nick ( or should I say Peter or Alistair ) Have you given up already?
Why try to cause mischief with the Tories while there is so much going wrong at the moment. Devaluation of the pound for starters, Brown and Darling make Lamont look like a genius!!!
Europe is a time bomb for the Tories and not for Labour as it is ok for them to renegate on their promises!!
Please try to regain your critical and unbiased views or you will soon become a figure of ridicule everytime you appearon TV. Or alternatively come out and have NU LABOUR tatooed on your forehead , that would be more honest if you choose to be their main broadcaster.
Complain about this comment
Bryant41 (100): Your post essentially boils down to an opinion that the federalists have a monopoly on what the EU is and that everyone else has to accept or leave. That is not the case and if it were then the EU would truly be a dictatorship that we should want to leave.
Federalists have essentially lost the argument on Europe, but the EU still retains Monnet’s institutional design that presupposes a federal destination. The time has come to change this with true reform achieved through a serious re-negotiation. The least disruptive change in the short-term (though it would lead to substantial changes longer-term) would be to make EU agreements (in areas beyond the common market) binding ONLY on the governments that agreed to them for the lifetime of their administration. This would mean that no government could be outvoted and compelled to enact measures that they had voted against (though they would not be able to prevent others doing what they want) and it would allow us to elect new elect new government able (for the first time) to disown EU measures that a previous British government had signed up to (or been outvoted on and required to implement anyway). The result would be a massive injection of flexibility into the EU structures and an end to the EU crisis of democratic legitimacy.
Unless you believe that we should be permanently bound by the decisions of our past governments then I cannot see how you would object to such EU reform.
Complain about this comment
The problem I have with the Common Market/EEC/EC/EU in it's numerous forms is that government has ever given me the chance to really have a say on it. Before anyone says, the 1975 (or whenever)referendum was thirty odd years ago. No one under the age 53-ish has ever really had the chance to have a direct say.
I cannot ever remember any government ever really explaining what was involved or why it is such a good idea. Even now, I doubt Gordon Brown would go on TV and make such a direct statement.
It was never really explained to the people, it started out as a trading organisation, and has evolved by stealth into its present form, and the evolution process is not yet finished - where will it all end ?
Roy Hattersly said on question time last week that there is no legal barrier to the 600 million people turning up in the UK tomorrow if they chose to do so. How have we gotten into a position where that could happen? And would the people in 1975 have voted for it if they had known? I doubt it personally.
Complain about this comment
#109 Swanadoni
OK, you can have a 'bilateral trading agreement' but on my (Europe's) terms - you can't argue as you are a tiny insignificant offshore island.
Is that the agreement you want? For that is the one you will get if you negotiate from your position of abject weakness.
You reject the ability to set the agenda and negotiate as a partner for the negotiating position of the serf with the lord. Sorry but your isolationist agenda does not attract me at all.
I (Europe) will force your currency up and down to meet my needs not yours - so I expect that is just fine with you too.
And by the way go home as you can't work or visit, or own property in Europe without a visa or a resident's permit.
Get real!
Complain about this comment
I see that Gordon Brownm is now showing his leadership qualities by issuing a statement on the BBC Russell Brand and Jonathan Ross issue.
Just what we need - "a serious man for a serious problem, this is no time for a novice!"
Perhaps he will insist that the BBC sack them both and he can then use their salaries to nationalise another bank.
Complain about this comment
"Unfortunately, insulting people is all too common when no intelligent response can be found."
When confronted with something unintelligent I find the best response is to have a bit of fun, rather than to reply intelligently. Comparing the EU to the nazis is a bit on the lunatic fringe. I know using words like "lunatic" and "insanity test" is not very PC and is in rather poor taste, but so too are obscure comparisons to Nazi Germany.
"Please let's keep this forum civilised, it is an old trick of dictatorships to declare that those who oppose them are decadent or insane."
There we go again with Godwin's law. Having a laugh at a few fringe eurosceptics is not an "old trick of dictatorships". Unless, of course, you mean the Brussels dictatorship of Nazis blah blah blah.
Complain about this comment
90 minute wait for everyone except Swanadoni.
What does he know that we don't :-)
Complain about this comment
re: 111, djlazarus
Lol ta. In the future I may post a 'best of' selection, but I'll wait for a special occasion to do that. Maybe when Labour lose Glenrothes...
Complain about this comment
Currently top of the political stories is GB saying that companies must urgently pass on falls in prices to consumers.
Perhaps Nick and Hay Pesto could explain to us that when GB says that he fails to mention that;
1) Tax makes up approx 50% of the pump price when the pump price was in the order of 114p per litre
2) Because the pound has depreciated so much against the USD, the actual fall in pounds in the price of oil is only about 25%
Therefore the fall in oil pries as translated into pump prices is only about 13% or so. (50%*25%)
At my local garages, the pump price is appox 99p-102p.
At the peak they were about 114p. That is a fall of approx 13%
So the oil companies are passing on the falls in prices.
But I am sure in the short space Nick and Peston have to fill such analysis will be deemed irrelevent and unimportant
Complain about this comment
#117 Eatonrifle
Wrong I'm afraid. Quite happy for the Tories to answer questions now on the current situation, but to expect us to have to wonder about what they MIGHT say IF three unlikely events take place is stretching scrutiny a bit far, particularly when there is so much around NOW to talk about.
Anyway, I might just as well say typical labour blogger, desperate to run with the line that the Tories are afraid of scrutiny. Well the thing is that it is currently the Labour party that is in government, as they have been for 11 years, and it is their decisions that are having and have had an impact on our lives here and now.
So who should be scrutinised more? The people who might have an issue if this that and the other happens, or the people whose decisions actually played a large part in where we are today, and will play a large part in how and when we come out of it?
Up to you of course, but I'd rather know about what the people who actually have the power are planning to do with it.
Complain about this comment
To my surprise, one hundred storeys high
People getting loose now, getting down on the roof
Folks screaming, out of control
It was so entertaining when the economy started to explode
I heard somebody say
(Burn Labour burn) EU inferno
(Burn Labour burn) Burn that mother down
(Burn Labour burn) EU inferno
(Burn Labour burn) Burn that mother down
Complain about this comment
"Doesn't Luxembourg receive one of the highest net payments from the EU and couldn't that be one of the reasons for the high standard of living there."
Err, no. Agriculture accounts for roughly 2% of the labour force in Luxembourg and while it is heavily subsidised, is of little economic importance. A similar situation occurs in Ireland. To suggest that transfer payments to 2% of the working population are the reason for a GDP per capita of over USD 60,000 is ridiculous. Don't worry. The transfer payments are not that large!!
Complain about this comment
Les moderateurs are being shamefully slow again today. They are in need of the proverbial rocket.
Complain about this comment
Well done Nick!
However bad the news is for the Government, you miss no opportunity to attack the Tories.
Glad to see you're also till resisting the pressure to ask the sorts of questions about Mandelson that all the papers are asking!
Complain about this comment
Keep calm Nick! You and I know Darling and Brown have got it all sorted out, Darling has secured a secret loan! Its all fun he hasen,t told Brown yet
Complain about this comment
It is an eye-opener to see how many EU critics there are without the faintest idea of the evidence.
If many people would like to see us leave the EU it is because they are misinformed and have jumped on a bandwagon without any wheels.
After the United States, the British banking system (not the EURO) has caused most of the global financial damage in the last few months. Our economy has been running on over-priced and shoddy property for a decade. Ever escalating house prices have fuelled a credit based boom without any substance.
Our properties are so small compared to European houses that we do not dare print how many sq. ft. they have in case a comparison could be made. Except in Spain, thanks to Brits unloading their spurious wealth, European house prices have remained relatively stable for thirty years.
The EURO zone has not suffered the same dimension of banking collapse and will not suffer a similar recession to Britain. Don’t live in cloud-cuckoo land about the superiority of the pound. In a shrinking world, the worst thing we did was not to join the EURO zone, and our travellers and businesses are continuing to pay exchange rate costs of huge dimensions to keep a minority in luxury (estimated £15 billion in 2007 for effectively nothing).
Our fishing fleet is, and has been for years, uneconomic and has over-fished the North Sea and anywhere else it could. It is not an important UK industry.
CAP already finances many British farmers and UK food prices depend on cheap imports.
All this talk of protectionist trade is absolute nonsense propagated by Victorian throwbacks.
Who cares which party gets into government so long as they have some real policies to stimulate employment and investment. Those who foolishly bought overpriced houses at 125% will still have to wait twelve months before the real value of 50% is reached and we should all hope no future government will allow such inflationary madness to happen again.
Yes, concentrate on essentials and not just fill up the blog-spot
Complain about this comment
fairlyopenmind @112,
That will teach you for trying to be civil to a pompous zen mastur
Complain about this comment
ah what ever happened to the all powerful tory party ?
oh right they became neu labour an offshoot that infiltrated what was the labour party you know that party that nationalised every thing created a national health service and waved the red flag bowing to union pressure.
this party in government are a poor copy of the tory party, pretending to be labour making a mockery of all the good and bad the real labour party achieved.
this thing we have endured for over 10 years has shown its colours and will do anything to keep power.
the modern tory party are but a pale immitation of there past and sadly are unfit for government.
we need the old labour party in power at the moment borrowing big but nationalising every thing and thus protecting the people of this country from rampent price increases unlike this group that has protected themselves and the banking sector leaving the people to suffer overpriced power bills etc.
Complain about this comment
2 hours for moderation. Atrocious!
Just returned back to UK from OZ... what is going on here...?
The same old, same old.... Why will no-one hold this bunch of muppets to account? Political journalism used to be about tearing into these people until they cried, and actually admitted what was going on. Now, Nick and Co. just roll over and get their tummies rubbed while asking WHAT IF questions and ignoring the REAL issues.
As soon as I can raise the airfair, i'm gone!
Great Britain RIP
Complain about this comment
Anybody who watched the Lisbon debates will have witnessed the nature of our political class es. There were few MPs who wanted to stick their head above the parapet and voice a view. Denial was the message and the outcome. These are cowardly people, by their nature desirous only of self advancement, just like their contemporaries in Europe-yes, people like Baroso and the multitude of stooges who dine and lecture their way around the circuit, parasiting off our money without principle or intellect,vision or courage.
Let us all trade our goods and services, but we must reassert our right to differ in day to day national customs. unsophisticated as we English might appear to those we have freed from extremism with our blood and re-establish our right to have our laws made by those we can address directly in our own country. Let others live by the yoke of the faceless in Brussels paid for by their alien VAT tax. If this generation of politicians refuse to listen to us, even with their cameras and snoop squads, a future one will emerge from the darkness to take our people and our politics in a direction even Lisbon wasn't drafted to comprehend.
Complain about this comment
What are you doing with all this pro Labour rubbish your are now not even subtle.
Complain about this comment
Better to play a positive role in Europe than be the 'Airstrip one' of the US. Like we were in the 1980s.
Sorry sagamix.
Complain about this comment
pammy @ 120
Which EU country has the largest population?
I see what you're saying. How would we avoid always having a German president, right? It's a good question ... the electoral system would have to deal with it in some way but I'm not sure quite how.
Do you have any suggestions?
Complain about this comment
156 "2 hours for moderation. Atrocious!"
You should try posting on 'Have Your Say'. Ten hours and waiting. This is efficiency by contrast! Ha!
Complain about this comment
Europe frightens labour and the tories because it offers one thing they are to scared to. Freedom. Jacqui Smith must know that one day the European courts are going to tear her to shreds. The Tories are scared that if they were in power the same could be happening to them. They both want fortress Britain, those days have long gone, from the end of WW" we have been a US lap dog. They both need to look forward not back, we need to be fully in Europe.
Complain about this comment
"2 hours for moderation. Atrocious!
Just returned back to UK from OZ... what is going on here...?.."
A bunch of Conservatives screaming bias at the host like toddlers because they aren't getting their way. You can't always give into to them or they'll do it again and again. then eventually right wing views will prevail in this country. It'll be like that novel 1939. Where we are the Germans.
Complain about this comment
Leave the EU? How ridiculous and defeatist. In any case, most of the malcontents are English so where would that leave other parts of the UK such as Scotland?
Complain about this comment
Seems pretty clear to me this needs to be settled by an in/out referendum.
A big vote winner for whoever offers that (and sticks to their word).
Of course being a proud little Englander I'd be voting for out.
@#39 Little Englander isn't an insult it's a badge of honour .
Complain about this comment
#141
"OK, you can have a 'bilateral trading agreement' but on my (Europe's) terms - you can't argue as you are a tiny insignificant offshore island.
Is that the agreement you want? For that is the one you will get if you negotiate from your position of abject weakness.
OK, you can have a 'bilateral trading agreement' but on my (Europe's) terms - you can't argue as you are a tiny insignificant offshore island.
You reject the ability to set the agenda and negotiate as a partner for the negotiating position of the serf with the lord. Sorry but your isolationist agenda does not attract me at all."
That's nonsense, John.
The UK has a massive trade deficit with the other EU member states. There is no way that the Eu would simply "isolate" the UK. It couldn't afford to.
The only bigger European economy is Germany. But, haven't they worked hard at it over 60 years? Pity we couldn't have done the same.
Japan is a similarly insignificant group of off-shore islands, not far from a massive China. Messed up from time to time, but managed to keep ahead of the curve despite the WWII impacts.
"You reject the ability to set the agenda and negotiate as a partner for the negotiating position of the serf with the lord."
Since when has any group other than the France/Germany combo been able to "set the agenda"?
Don't forget that, for years, the "intellectually superior" French thought they could harness the German "wealth-creating capability" to further their aims.
(You can still see that in the stupidity of having the parliament migrating from Brussels to Strasbourg at our cost... Do you really believe that MPs should migrate from London to York, or Winchester within our local environment?)
For decades, the CAP - and its methods of distributing benefits - meant that France never contributed to an overall EU development. In other words, a key instigator was a net recipient, rather than a contributor, to the EU project.
So, for years, in spite of an EU "rebate", the UK helped French farmers. They could have done that for themselves... In effect, they did by simply recycling their "contributions" back to their own agricultural industry.
I quite like the idea of pan-European co-operation. Always did.
But when you allow a currency to be built on a lie, what can you trust?
Italy "fixed" its financial stability by introducing a special, one-year-only tax, in order to achieve a qualifying threshold.
Funny thing, John, I quite like close co-operation between countries.
Just wish that the "administration classes" would be a little more pragmatic and stiop churning out laws, rules and regulations that add burdens on real businesses.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
FAO laughingblacksheep
Don't know if you're still around - a couple of things for you related to the earlier post
Source for Current Surplus Figures
Receipts of privatisation, right to buy and North Sea Oil windfall was £298 billion - so not quite £350 billion but almost
Complain about this comment
re: 159, dhwilkinson
Better to play a positive role in Europe than be the 'Airstrip one' of the US. Like we were in the 1980s.
'What's good for an old Franciscan is not good for a young Dominican'
---Umberto Eco, The Name of the Rose
Complain about this comment
#153
"Except in Spain, thanks to Brits unloading their spurious wealth, European house prices have remained relatively stable for thirty years."
Depends what you mean by stable.
My sister-in-law bought a place in an attractive town (cathedral city in our terms) a couple of hours from Paris.
Paid around GBP35,000 about 20 years ago. (Working back from when my son was born...) Valued at GBP 550,000 now.
That's a bit of hike, well above inflation. Or her expectations.
Property is "worth" what someone will pay for it. Making money available cheaply hasn't been part of the French approach to house purchase until fairly recently. It's easier now - but not as available as inj the UK.
Should never have been made so easily available in the UK. Who's to blame for a cash-hosing, credit-enlarging regime in the UK? I don't much like Bush, but he sure as hell didn't manage the UK economic environment.
Complain about this comment
According to The Timespoll, as of now:
Has the BBC lost the plot?
YES: 90.2 percent
NO: 9.8 percent
Says it all really.
Sort yourself out Beeb.
Complain about this comment
Hello? Is a little non-English not allowed? All I wanted to say is that half the people on here seem to be attacking Nick for being pro-Government/Labour. I thought these wise people might need to refer to their favourite tome for some insight...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-354584/Will-Tory-Robinson-bogged-claims-bias.html
But no doubt it's all a lie and a BBC conspiracy cos 90.2% of Murdoch readers can't be wrong
Complain about this comment
161. conspiracy2012
You should try posting on 'Have Your Say'. Ten hours and waiting. This is efficiency by contrast! Ha!
The moderators on this forum have doctorates compared to the moderators on HYS. I think most of those have English as a second language, and are extremely touchy about postings they think may be politically incorrect. The irony is that I, yes ME, was shocked at the language I saw on the BBC Entertainment page.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7694989.stm
Complain about this comment
Hmm - the Conservatives could be in a pickle about this.
The current financial crisis was, in the main, caused by "competitive regulation". Countries could not regulate global financial firms because, if they did attempt to, they would merely locate elsewhere to benefit from this. Everyone loses out of the lack of ability to coordinate in this area - look at the size of the bail-outs required due to the difficulty in regulating banks and other financial firms without inducing capital flight.
In other areas to, globalisation imposes serious constraints on the policies that national governments can follow. Follow the wrong one, and global businesses will merely locate elsewhere.
Avoiding this tendency towards competitive regulation requires coordination, for countries to agree regulatory standards that they will all meet.
A strong Europe seems essential to this endeavour.
It will all play out in the end, once the Conservatives have worked out what their attitude now is to regulation after the collapse of the world financial system.
Is it going to be "grin and bear it for now, blame Labour for the crisis, wait for people to forget, deregulate again once they have" when they get into power, or are they going to change their "market knows best, regulation is always bad" attitudes? If the latter, they may consider it in the National Interest to remain close to our European partners.
Complain about this comment
#166 fairlyopenmind
I was responding to the farcical idea that the UK would benefit with just a bilateral trade agreement. (Without free movement of people or of money that was proposed by Swanadoni in #109)
I simply refuse to accept that we are not as good at fighting our corner as any other European state. Your attitudes to the shortcomings of the EU is to throw your hand up in horror and want to leave - it ain't gonna happen.
This is not the place to look at the detail of each and every EU regulation - some good and some no so good - and some reasonable, but insanely implemented by the UK's civil servants (e.g. single farm payments).
I am always taken by the adage 'hold your friends close but your enemies closer'!
Moving on:
Wouldn't it have been nicer all round if our banks had been a little more those in Europe and our central bank a little more like the ECB then perhaps our property asset price inflation would have been better controlled.
Many European tax systems do not exempt houses from capital taxes as we do in the UK and that might have helped too, as would a French style Wealth Tax to moderate a housing boom.
The Tories and Europe
But this blog is about the neanderthal rump of the Tory party's conflict with reality and to 'so called modern' Cameron Tory party. I contend that it is the same party with the same agenda as it has been since its foundation.
A friend, a descent of George Canning, the first 'Conservative' PM always maintains that the party is essentially unchanged since 1820 even through it merged with the Liberal Unionist Party in 1912. The Thatcher time is seen as an accidental and unintended temporary perversion of Toryism.
I see the economic libertarianism she introduced as the root of our present problems (based as they were on the economic philosophy of Milton Friedman and the Boys from Chicago!) I see Milton Friedman as to father of the credit bubble and all of the non-regulation.
Complain about this comment
Brown calls for increase in IMF's global bailout fund
One of the comments from the website:
Why didn't Brown heed the IMF and OCED when they predicted the credit crunch and told Brown to stop borrowing? He told Parliament that they were being alarmist.
^ The author of that comment is no fool.
Brown, what have you done to us? You have ruined Britain with the usual Labour vices: avarice and profligacy. Shame on you. SHAME.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
You've left out a significant part of the story. Tebbit's view is that an increasing number of Western European politicians are attracted to the idea of a core of Western European member countries moving the federal project forward, more or less independently of the rest of the Union. He believes they are motivated by practical difficulties arising from the EU's expansion, and the lack of enthusiasm of Britain, Ireland and others for deeper integration. The proposition is an interesting one, particularly as he quotes Valéry Giscard d'Estaing in support of it.
I'm disappointed by the omission. An analysis of this aspect of Tebbit's views would have been relevant and interesting. Instead, they were portrayed as a blast from the past.
Now I'm interested in the assumptions and thinking behind the omission. Is it an example of the kind of institutional bias criticised by the Trustees in 2007? Or is it just sloppiness?
Complain about this comment
re: 172, chantry bee
Yes we all know about Nick's Tory past, but he works for al-Beeb now and his champagne socialist paymasters call the shots. Nick is the BBC's puppet, and he reports the BBC line: strangely enough, it's identical to that of NoooLieBore's.
Complain about this comment
I love it whenever Europe is mentioned and all the right wing lunatics come out of the woodwork. Always gives me a good chuckle!
These people are so far divorced from reality it's untrue.
I actually feel sorry for them - it must be awful to have an outlook on life where you fear the "other" so much that you lose all rationality and lash out to blame them for the entire country's ills. I wonder how they summon the will to get out of bed in the morning when all those nasty foreigners are out there trying to put them down!
As for the post: Anyone with half a brain cell knows that Europe is the weeping scab of the Tory party, and Cameron and his band of toffs will have exactly the same problems with the issue as all the previous leaders. Pointing that simple fact out is not a socialist plot!
Complain about this comment
#154 MaxSceptic
It always feels a bit strange, when you've been trying to encourage innovation and hammer down the costs of delivery, while you've been concurrently into that market-facing environment...
I've no probs with Bhuddism. One of my old teams was a fairly significant player/leader in a UK organisation. (He liked ladies with big t**s, but that was obviously a personal - rather than a religious - point of view!)
Funny really. I don't blame Brown for creating global havoc.
Just think he's been a useless Chancellor. And that a lot of present UK problems could have been avoided by better management of the UK economy.
And not quite sure why C_E_H wants to go to Japan, where the suicide rate is roughly 3 times the level of the UK. That point just doesn't persuade me that what seems like a decent philosphy translates into a real benefit to its supporters.
Hey ho...
Complain about this comment
#175 John_from_Hendon
"I simply refuse to accept that we are not as good at fighting our corner as any other European state. Your attitudes to the shortcomings of the EU is to throw your hand up in horror and want to leave - it ain't gonna happen."
John, I'm a European. Live here, married across the boundaries, enjoy plenty of European stuff. Always have done.
If you really believe that the UK has been good at fighting our corner, why have the benefits not been widely recognised?
And just who has done any significant fighting?
I haven't seen any signs that the "shortcomings" of the EU are being addressed in any meaningful way.
I don't throw up my hands in horror. Just saying that, if the UK decided to leave, the remaining nations would accept that they would need to keep the UK "on side", as they gain more from us than we do from them.
I don't advocate leaving the EU. But it would rather good if fundamental problems could be properly addressed.
I've always been in favour of a Common Market and a supporting legal infrastructure. Just don't believe it exists. Even after 50 years...
And, quite frankly, I haven't enjoyed supporting the French economy for many years. It's a funny thing, but I understand that a huge slice of the CAP resources go to France. But the majority of their share of income goes to their big agricultural organisations.
I say the same about the EU as I say about the UK legislature. If parliamentarians don't really know what laws, regulation, statutory instruments etc they have imposed, they just don't deserve to be paid.
Can you name any MEP or MP who really understands every piece of legislation they've approved?
So what the heck chance does an individual have of avoiding breaking the law?
Complain about this comment
Sagamix@160
Yes, that is what I mean, and I find it an alarming thought. I don't see how power could be shifted between countries unless there were appointed presidents, with responsibility rotating, which is pretty much the current position. I don't see how the EU could ever be a truly democratic political union. Generally, the larger an organisation, the less those at the coal face are listened to never mind consulted. My preference is the common market for which I voted, then watched in horror as it changed names and objectives.
I worked a fair bit in many European countries and remember being told some years ago by a German colleague that the EU needs the UK because it's the only European country that's had a democracy for more than two hundred years.
I'm also unable to reconcile the move towards a European political union with the opposite move within countries towards devolution - Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, the Basques, ETA, Montenegro, Kosovo etc. etc.
Complain about this comment
laughingfat_steve
I just don't understand this garbage.
It was a Tory PM who signed the UK up for a Common Market.
A Labour PM who put it to a referendum.
Just where is the Common Market? Almost there, I suppose. Just give it another decade or so. Hidden under the layers of legislation that have swamped people and businesses.
Anti-European. Not me.
Anti remote folk making up laws, as they have to occupy their time. Absolutely.
I'd be happy if some limited, pan-European arrangements could be defined - and actually implemented - across the Continent.
I'd bet you my house that you have no idea of the details of all the regulations that pour out of Brussels.
So how does some poor b****r know which laws or regulations now exist, which probably makes him/her a law-breaker?
Or have any idea which regulations are actually going to be observed and enforced across the Union?
It's the Giscard d'Estaing bit I don't like. (By the way, the French like the de or d' bit as it reflects some historic resonance, but Giscard acquired his by marrying someone with a spare d...)
Just don't like an imposition from remote folk, who in many cases seem not to understand why or what they legislate to stop.
But I like Europeans.
Complain about this comment
Nick
Jaqui Smith said:
"Local authorities do not have the power to listen to your calls now and they never will in future. You would rightly object to proposals of this kind and I would not consider them. "
I think the whole country would like to know why she thinks we would 'rightly' object to this, but she evidently doesn't think it is 'right' for us to object to the other rubbish she exudes.
I thought she was a totalitarian, dictatorial monster - but this would suggest that she may have her own internal 'moral compass' that draws lines in the sand.
Forget slagging of the opposition for things that they aren't in a position to implement anyway...
Run with this... what is the logic behind jacqui smiths line on 'right and wrong' -- if she genuinely has one (and this wasn't a meaninless phrase randomly dropped into a meaningless speech) it is essential that the country should know what it is!
Go on Nick - you used to be a journalist, I am sure you can still do it if you want to hard enough...
Complain about this comment
If anyone wants to know where the Conservative Party stands on having a referrundum, and what there thoughts are on joining the EU e-mail them.
I think it will make things a lot clearer.
Complain about this comment
I like to think I'm a worldly man, I dont have any sentiment of nationlism.
I would like to see an effective EU, I'm still waiting.
The EU and all it's glory? still we find the same famine and horror in Africa?
The EU and its shared values, you only have to look at Belgium to see just how fragile those shared values are.
I would like to see the EU end famine, have a shared and equal focus on free tuition for all member-states and a common purpose to end poverty in all European member-states.
Hark the silent words......May I gae tapsalteerie O'.
Complain about this comment
We have similar personality types and I've been watching your comments follow a curve that's typical of the type. I've seen and made all the same mistakes before, and arguing is useless. Take it as an observation and move on.
My Zen Buddhism and Japan have nothing to do with each other. It's just a question of self-development and where I want to be unless, of course, you just want me to get angry and whine. Been there, done that. Can't say it was profitable.
Complain about this comment
46. At 1:12pm on 28 Oct 2008, U1777075 wrote:
"Here's something for all you europhiles to note:
Mr Sarkozy has some economic plans for France (not Europe)
A "strategic investment fund" is part of his plan.
"One cannot allow speculative funds from elsewhere to buy up our enterprises cheaply," he said.
Now let me think, who is it that owns a major part of our electricity distribution? ED something or other, can't think where they come from. ..."
I was talking to a bloke the other day as he went to his place of work in Swinging Ipswich. He told me that he worked for EDF (= Eletricite De France) at a place from which they could turn off much of the electricity in the South of England. I find it totally unacceptable to give a French organisation that power just as I find it unacceptable for them to be able to switch off much of our trade by closing the Channel Tunnel.
Complain about this comment
Europe is not the ticking bomb - the EU is the ticking bomb.
It will eventually fail unless it maintains its quasi 'authority' via brute force.
Already we have 'Europol' a term which could have come straight out of George Orwell's book, '1984'. What next, an E.U. military - 'Euromil'?
Europhiles claim to be E.U. citizens - how can one be a citizen of a mere political construct - which is what the E.U. is?
The E.U. is an unnecessary expense, an encroachment upon our freedoms and is certainly a ticking bomb.
A bomb which is certain to implode.
I'm just sayin' ...
Complain about this comment
This is the interesting comment: "a risky referendum in the mid term of a parliament that looks set to be dominated by the need to cut spending and raise taxes;".
Nick - how about a blog on how Labour in Government has squandered the nation's resources in a spending and borrowing binge over the past 10 years, instead of continually harassing the Tories?
Complain about this comment
Morning all, Herb_igone here again.
Looks like we can forget about recovery, since the powers that be are trying to stir up the europe mess still.
Nick's obviously got a problem, since his job title involves the word editor, but somebody else is the editor-in-chief, so he gets told what to do and write.
Meanwhile El Gordo, puffed up with a sense of his own importance, is busy pontificating on anything that moves. He's upbraiding Wussy and Wossy about tasteless practical jokes, he's busy telling the energy companies to lower their prices in response to the fall in oil prices, and he's off to tell the owners of the crude how to manage their economies to the benefit of the west. And all this without wearing his underpants outside his trousers.
He goes foe the quick soundbite, then ducks back into his bunker. And then sends out that nice, cuddly Mr Darling to tell us that they will NOT be behaving irresponsibly with regard to borrowing.
I'd really like to listen to their grown up explanation of what irresponsibility is, and why they shouldn't be labelled with it.
I'm still anxious to know exactly who they're going to borrow from. We haven't got any money, the banks haven't got any money, the corporates (apart from Shell and BP) haven't got any money, and the insurance companies haven't got any spare, in fact they're next in line for assistance. I think we should be told where any loans are going to come from. Then we might join the queues outside their doors.
Complain about this comment
fairlyopenmind,
As Chuck has previously stated that he shares a 'personality type' with Gordon Brown, I would consider his claim @187 (about you, fairlyopenmind)
"We have similar personality types and I've been watching your comments follow a curve that's typical of the type."
as insulting - and possibly actionable.
[BTW - I disagree: I don't think you and Chuck are similar types. You try to reason and you don't pontificate or use bogus management-consultant jargon. Also Chuck has been everywhere, and done everything. He is the font of all wisdom and ever prescient. You, fairlyopenmind, are just mortal].
Complain about this comment
"Sterling has just been devalued by 25% and more to come as interest rates plummet. The UK has been left behind as far as investment in infrastructure, and living standards are concerned,"
The answer to this is NOT closer integration with Europe, but the election of a political party with the means and balls to get us out of the EU and build up our economy as an independent, dynamic economy.
The reason some of the other EU states are leaving us behind is because of our terrible government, not because we did not sign up to the Euro.
Now that the ripples from the so-called "global credit crunch" and various indices are fluctuating wildly, some europhiles are crawling out of the woodwork to seek refuge in a dictatorship. Now is not the time to give in to tyranny. We must resist the EU plutocracy. Withdraw from the EU to become a self regulating nation once more. Stuff the new world order, we should go it alone.
Complain about this comment
"I'm still anxious to know exactly who they're going to borrow from. We haven't got any money, the banks haven't got any money, the corporates (apart from Shell and BP) haven't got any money, and the insurance companies haven't got any spare, in fact they're next in line for assistance. I think we should be told where any loans are going to come from. Then we might join the queues outside their doors."
=====================
They (central banks) just print more money (well create it out of thin air with a click of a mouse these days)
It is a big con. They create "money" out of thin air and then charge interest upon it. It costs the central banks NOTHING as money is no longer linked to anything of real value. It is not backed by gold anymore so the central banks can create as much of it as they like. Trouble is, creating too much of it promotes inflation. So they have stopped publishing M3 money and hope we will not notice when they expand or contract the money supply. There is no accountability and the Labour Government are mere puppets to the banking elite.
Complain about this comment
Nick
I think the Brand/Ross saga has had more than enough coverage now, don't you? We should just let the powers that be get on with the job of finding a way to punish them for being juvenile and that will be that. Can't see them losing their jobs, but the producer might.
BTW - what's going on elsewhere?
Complain about this comment
137 PTTP
Point taken, however would you want to be stuck in a lift with either of them?
Complain about this comment
The Reagan-Thatcher years saw a huge cut in public services and transfer of wealth to the elite. The Tories might not like it but Labour have spent that money on putting right what the Tories put wrong.
The electorate and media are beginning to see through the Tories hijacking the economy and blaming things on someone else, just as you tried to hijack the topic and project negative attention on Labour.
Looking at how Osborne and Cameron have so litttle added value to offer and seem addicted to negative campaigning, I'd rate them no better than some random internet troll. Cuz, that's wot they are.
Complain about this comment
#197 Charles, I don't know why you feel the need to defend this appalling excuse for a Government all the time. When Labour were elected in 1997, there were things which needed fixing and they promised to "think the unthinkable". Problem is, they sacked Frank Field as soon as he made some radical proposals and reverted to type - squandering public money on unreformed public services. The result is little value for money, a massive, unsustainable public borrowing requirement and a creaking infrastructure. Tax rises and spending cuts are inevitable as a consequence - Labour are merely postponing that pain until after the next election. It is a con!
Complain about this comment
power_to_the_people
I knew we shared the same sense of humour, but here is something else. My tutor at uni was the same one that Sylvia Plath studied with. No more personal details from me!
Complain about this comment
Nick,
is there not another problem on the horizon, and it concerns the BBC and the moderaters.
We have now heard the furore over the Ross and Brand Radio 2 programme.
Some of us have tended to be rather rude about the Prime Minister and some of his personal habits which do not need to be repeated. I have also referred to him as a plant, I should not have done that.
Can we now expect a much closer scrutiny of our comments because they are on the BBC, and your blog. Are we seeing the first attempts to control the BBC by the politicians. There is a big game going on and we ought to be afraid, very afraid, free speech is under threat.
Gordon Brown has got involved and issued 'statements' why does he not issue a statement with regard to the actions of American forces in Syria, and the use of drones in Pakistan, it seems to me that these are the real issues which need to be addressed.
Complain about this comment
crowded @ 190
Government has squandered the nation's resources in a spending and borrowing binge over the past 10 years
Has a nice ring to it, that does, and it's a big shame that it isn't true - the borrowing binge has been in the private sector not the public sector. The figures demonstrate that beyond a reasonable doubt.
So I'm sorry but you're going to have drop this one and find another reason to oppose the government. How about the Big Brother society that seems to be sneaking up on us? ... you know, like in the C4 show and in the book by George Orwell?
Complain about this comment
Point of accuracy.
Sterling is not being devalued. We do not attempt to manage the exchange rate directly, since the disasterous events of 1992.
We let the market set the rate and we do not haemorrage state money to prop up the currency (through purchases of sterling), nor set cripplingly high interest rate to keep speculators money in the UK, as happened in the past (notably leading to 'Black Wednesday in 1992).
Therefore, the depreciation of sterling will not cost the state money and lead to crisis in the same way as previous episodes of downward pressure on the currency. Import prices will rise (though many companies will price in sterling rather than converting the foreign currency cost, so margins will be squeezed for importing businesses), foreign holidays will become more expensive, holidays for foreigners in the UK will become cheaper and export prices will fall giving manufacturing a boost
Complain about this comment
Is there a means by which you can possess a TV but not pay the license fee?
What irrelevant twaddle.
Complain about this comment
200. T A Griffin (TAG)
is there not another problem on the
Some of us have tended to be rather rude about the Prime Minister and some of his personal habits which do not need to be repeated. I have also referred to him as a plant, I should not have done that.
No, he is not a plant, he is a parasitic weed! So there!!!!
Complain about this comment
CEH
Labour have had eleven and a half years to put things right, and things have got much worse, not better.
You use the words of Zen (and others) to illustrate the error of our ways to the rest of us bloggers on here, but cannot apply his teachings to show yourself what an abject failure this Labour Government actually is.
Complain about this comment
sagamix @ 201 - certainly share your concern about creeping Orwellianism and a Big Brother society - Labour need to be held to account over the erosion of our civil liberties. But back to the borrowing issue - Brown was deficit spending throughout the boom years - how on earth can that be described as "responsible management"? Now we have hit the bust, the public coffers are empty and the PSBR is going through the stratosphere.
Complain about this comment
#202
Also the price of petrol at the pumps will not go down, petrol is priced in US Dollars, Sterling is being devalued. When the chancellor pumps more money into the economy the government does not want it to be spent overseas. He wants it to be internal to the country, that is why the pound is falling against the dollar, but surprisingly not against the Euro.
A devaluation of the pound against the Euro would be seen as anti-competitive.
Complain about this comment
@ 191
Morning all, Herb_igone here again
Now there's something to lift the spirits on a cold and frosty day ...
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I'm not necessarilly defending or attacking ayone. I just have a position and the various players come in and out of the frame. But, to tackle this point, idealism is fne to a point but you have to take into account practicalities and influences.
I've commented on the media and society in the past, and there's a strong case to suggest that the general clutter and sneery attitude is draggng the show down, and that has an influence on things as diverse as education and crime.
That's a solid view and always an interesting read, but what does this mean in practical and market terms? I'm thinking, here, that tourism has an opportunity to raise its game and manufacturing could have an edge in developing new markets.
Complain about this comment
pammy @ 182
I don't see how the EU could ever be a truly democratic political union.
No, not entirely. I'm not a massive fan of the Nation State but I can see that trying to merge so many different entities, with multiple languages and divergent cultures, into one Super State would be doomed to fail.
What I'd like to see is for us to keep pooling sovereignty in more and more areas until we get as close as practically possible to the unification goal. So we'd have a common currency and an integrated European model for the big things like defence, immigration, fiscal and monetary policy, health, education, transport, the police, the justice system, the courts etc.
National governments would remain but would be downgraded to be more like local councils - you know, so they would be responsible for emptying the bins, cleaning the streets, giving out parking tickets and all the rest of it - matters that are more to do with simple administration.
Complain about this comment
I reckon Nick's on holiday. I mean, who wrote this stuff? I bet some office junior knows Robinson's password and posted this irrelevent, labourite distraction.
Complain about this comment
For new readers of this blog:
Asperger Syndrome used in reference to the worrying mannerisms of he who shall not be named was censored by the moderators and transmuted into Aspidistra.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
199. p to p The Bell Jar! Sad fate she had :( Ted Hughes was great.
Complain about this comment
#211 sagamix
There are several downsides to a unified Europe.
Not least are our laws. We've already had hundreds of cases where our laws are superseded by European Laws, and those cases have cost this country millions in wasted Court time already. I don't think it's a good idea to let unelected and faceless people in Brussels tell us how to run our judicial system - it can only lead to more confusion and a lot more wasted money.
Complain about this comment
crowded @ 206
Brown was deficit spending throughout the boom years - how on earth can that be described as "responsible management"?
Your emphasis is wrong, that's the trouble.
The real borrowing binge in the UK has been in the private sector. Public sector debt is not (prior to banking bailouts) particularly high either as a percentage of our GDP, or as stacked against comparable countries.
Also, a review of the figures for current account spending (credit fellow poster balham on the numbers) shows that Labour have been more prudent with the finances than the Conservatives ever were - a surplus of 2 billions for 97/08 compared to a deficit of 312 billions for 79/97.
Do the figures not matter?
Complain about this comment
sagamix@211
Yes, a democratic United States of Europe is a fine ideal, but I'm a practical person and I don't see how it can be achieved. If its politicians are elected by each country's voters, those politicians will always support the wishes of the country that elected them against the interests of other countries, because they'll want to be elected again. I see it as being the same as Conservative constituencies having money spent on them when the Conservatives are in power, and Labour constituencies when Labour is in power.
A first step would be for each participating country to become a democracy itself, because I don't think I'm living in a democracy in the UK, and the politicians of most countries appear to ignore the wishes of the majority when it suits them.
Complain about this comment
Brand & Ross
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#213
In the same way that we have moderaters does your your comment mean that I can now refer to myself as a transmuter.
I very much appreciate the fact some people do read these comments and that they can remember those things which some people seem to ignore.
Now then, can we have a statement from the Prime Minister as to the actions taken by America in Syria and Pakistan. or is that he does not want to upset them. However, what I would say is that the cohesiveness of our society is under threat because of the actions taking place in our name.
Why no demonstrations, have we lost our sense of fair play, what would happen if the Conservatives were actually in power today?
Complain about this comment
Right now I know what is being moderated.
Try again.
Complain about this comment
#217 sagamix
I read an article last week saying that Gordon wiped Northern Rock off the Government's books by massaging the figures from 40% to 37%. The article appeared in the Economist. The figures DO matter - it's just the way this government interpret them that leaves a lot to be desired.
Complain about this comment
200 TAG
Gordon Brown has issued statements on the Brand and Ross issue, as it is a story that requires no ratification, and is current and trendy.
Would he dare in the current environment make such a statement on real and big issues such as the ones you have mentioned?
Probably not, as he is a very frightened man.
And he wrote a book on courage! Pa!
Complain about this comment
#181 fairlyopenmind
Would you rather be on the committee of the golf club or just pay the green fees as a visitor?
Is it not better to have some say rather than having no say at all?
By the way a 'free trade' area as some want (#109 Swanadoni) would have you sent home as an illegal alien and you would not be able to work or live in France, as you say that you now do. That is the Anti-European / Euro-sceptic (not a term I like to use) position.
Perhaps you think that having no say at all in European matters is preferable - I do not.
Complain about this comment
Europe - I'm not fussed about this subject at the moment.
Although I think the Conservatives should take a leadership role in Europe, I'm happy for them to remain largely on the fence and demand that Europe turns itself into an electable accountable democracy before trying to further integrate countries.
I'm also ambivalent and don't feel a huge need to kick Labour for their failure to lead in Europe and their betrayal to the public over the referendum.
I am, however, very concerned that Labour are killing our country and finances and are not being held to task by the media.
I'm also interested in the media tackling the Conservatives over their plans for government. Labour will have left the UK in as a smouldering wreck, thus Europe is a minor question compared to understanding how the Conservatives will rebuild Britain from the ashes up.
Complain about this comment
What relevance is this article to the issues facing the government today?
The tories voted for a referendum on the EU treaty (constitution) and what their predecessors have to say about it is irrelevant
Far more interesting is the non discussion of the chancellor breaking the golden rules.
or the Home secretary's dysmal performance when questioned about her defence of 42 day detention.
or why Mandelson is not being made the subject of a public enquiry for misleading the EU and UK authorities about when his dealings with Oleg Deripaska began.
or why two well known BBC light entertainment presenters ave not yet been sacked for a gross misbehaviour at licence payers' expense.
or what newlabour posters continue to refer to a 'haemorraging of cash in 1992 ... which cost 10bn while apparently all the money spent on Northern Rock, bradford and Bingley and saving the banks - a total of in excess of 600billion is apparently all 'investment'. And the currency is apparently 'depreciating' rather than 'devaluing'... er what's the difference?
or why you have nothing to say about a housing market that has fallen faster than in the 90s and is predicted to be worse in terms of absolute falls and numbers repossessed than at any time in history.
is it now a standard BBC/Alistair Campbell policy to carry an article about the EU; put up a picture of Lady Thatcher and hope that a row about the EU will ensue casting the tories in a negative light?
you must be desperate.
never have so many people buried their heads in the sand about so many negative economic issues facing the country for so long and with so many dire conseqences.
never have I herad someone utter the words 'we'll get through this' so many times as when Alistair Dariling recently made a speech on the recession.
We might get though it, but the newlabour party won't get through it.
Might as well call that election. The spend more money argument has been made and lost. Over and over.
Complain about this comment
Picking up on #206, why doesn't Nick Robinson do a story - noted in The Times - on how Home Office officials in a leaked memo have warned against Jacqui Smith's Orwellian database, are campaigning against it behind the scenes and have warned that it is probably illegal under Human Rights law?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk:80/tol/news/politics/article4969361.ece
Was your eye off the ball on that one last week for some reason, Mr. Robinson, or was your non-story a smokescreen to cover that bit of bad news for the NuStasi Government?
Complain about this comment
200 TAG
This topic is alive on the 2000-or-bust page where it probably belongs. Just thought I should mention it.
Complain about this comment
#224 HarryPagetFlashman
It's so much easier for Gordon to comment on the Wussy and Wossy story and it provides a really useful digression which takes the public's minds away from what is really happening in Syria and Pakistan.
Complain about this comment
Following my post at 226.
My apologies to Polly Toynbee - who has at least noticed that a British Prime minster is blatantly lying to the public:
"Gordon Brown seems unable to stop saying things so blindingly untrue that you wonder how he gets the words out"
Is Europe an issue worth discussing when we have a PM who is caught telling serious lies to the public?
Complain about this comment
shelling @ 216
There are several downsides to a unified Europe.
There are but, to me, the upsides are considerably greater.
Especially ...
1. waving goodbye to the rather silly (and always vulnerable) pound Sterling.
2. seeing an end to our independent armed forces and foreign policy - in translation: our ability to carry out hare brained and massively expensive military adventures in places we have no business being.
Complain about this comment
re: 196, Harry P Flashman
Not really, no! The Deluded One would be rambling on about zen, TH would be rambling on about trout!
re: 199, phoenixarisen
Oh yeah? Fancy that! I'll bet you heard a lot of interesting stories!
re: 215, flamepat
Yeah, it's a great novel and a shame she died young, she was very talented (though not as talented as TH). Dunno where she could possibly have gone post-Ariel though!
Complain about this comment
rjd @ 227
What relevance is this article to the issues facing the government today?
Well, one of the issues facing the government today is an assessment of the strength of the opposition - that, in the main, means the conservative party and this little piece is on them.
There ... asked and answered!
Complain about this comment
Nick
Once again you have my support I see nothing in your comments on this blog to suggest that in any way it is pro Labour in fact the opposite, I dont mind that one bit as I have said before as long as what you print is the truth then its fair comment.
It seems to me that ,that isnt the position of most Tories on here they appear to think that you have to continuesly praise the rather obscure shadow cabinet.
Nick at this time that would be impossible since they dont appear to have anything to say, someone on here said that GB says something and then dodges into his bunker well the Tories went into their bunker a month or so ago and they haven't been seen since.
Someone did report that he'd seen someone riding rather rapidly on his bike up a one way street, one might suppose it might be Cameron but he couldn't be sure.
It used to be a pleasure to come on these blogs when the tories were doing nothing but at the same time doing well .
We had many a lively debate and exchange of views and even some humour now since Labour have started their recovery its become a misery.
Its all .Nicks a labourite, the EU the cause of the trouble those damn French should not have been allowed to take advantage of Maggie by forcing her to sell them half of Britain. when Oh! when are they going to look at the totaly innert apology of a alternative government who are now being shown in there true colours and blame them for the way their ratings are falling, They did nothing to earn themselve the position they held in the polls, Now labour are earning every point they get on there merits, so carry on Nick all I want is the truth good or bad. I am afraid that the smell of fear in the Tory ranks is becoming stronger by the day.
Complain about this comment
flash @ 222
You'll be getting very cheesed off, I'd have thought, with keep having to do fifteen posts in order to get one up in lights ...
Complain about this comment
#221 TAG
"Why no demonstrations, have we lost our sense of fair play, what would happen if the Conservatives were actually in power today?"
If the Conservatives were in power today I suggest that the Beeb wouldn't be throwing these scraps for us to comment on.
There would be best raw steak insights into the why's, wherefore's and whodunnit's following weeks of in depth investigation and reporting of Conservative failings.
I was a believer in balance at the Beeb - I've either been corrupted by fellow bloggers or have had the blinkers removed because I don't see much balance now.
This sequence of Robinson blogs, Peston going off brief to have a little dig and the Ross Brand disgrace have turned me into Mr Angry of Milton Keynes . I hope the next stage isn't to start talking as if I have adenoid problems. If so I'm going to sue!
Complain about this comment
230 Shell
I'm no political pundit but that is just what has been said in the Pre amble on Radio 5's PMQ.
So there it is.
Any MP jumping in this story is shallow.
Ross and Brand are horrible bullies in my opinion and deserve anything that's coming to them.
Complain about this comment
#223 shellingout
But Northern Rock adds little to the debt, as I've covered many times on this blog.
Total loss from Northern Rock = £90 billion (value of mortgage book) * % defaulting on loans * % decrease in prices of houses owned by defaulters * Average loan:value ratio of defaulters
Being realistic, what can the %s above be?
% defaulting - ~10% (far in excess of repossessions in the 1991-93 housing slump)
% house price decrease - ~40% (this is a massive over-exaggeration to demonstrate my point)
Average LTV ratio - 90% (far in excess from the average on NRs books)
£90bn * 0.1 * 0.4 * 0.9 = £3.2 billion in this scenario, ignoring parts of the loan book that will turn a profit.
Independent analysts (e.g. the IFS) have said that the debt implications of NR will be small, and it is completely correct for all liabilities of NR to be included in the National Debt.
I do, though, agree with your general point that people just don't trust the Government's figures. Wrongly, in the main (due to misleading reporting by the media e.g. over the NR debt) but trust is important.
Complain about this comment
#225.
I think that you have to bear in mind what you have to give up in order to have your say.
I recall an anecdote in relation to Kenneth Clark, where it's said he happened across a meeting of finance ministers discussing the single currency. He wasn't invited since the UK was not part of the project. He apparently knocked on the door and asked if he could join the discussion, and the others present said yes, please do. So, do we really have to pool all of our sovereignity to join in a discussion and a help craft resolution to European problems? Was even the moving from a Common Market to a form of Common Government the right thing?
I wonder to what extent the one-size-fits-all European finance policy has had in relation to countries within the single currency dealing with the liquidity problem? This is actually a genuine question, not a back-handed opinion.
Complain about this comment
236 Saga
My God! is that how long it's been?
You know me, idle pleasures and tiny things and all that jazz.
It's a shame the original post was truly a great work of literature.
Now we'll never know, unless of course it's un moderated and I'm found out to be a fraud, still won't be the first on this blog if I am.
Wrote is before and I'll write it again.
"click" like you style.
Complain about this comment
#232 sagamix
2. seeing an end to our independent armed forces and foreign policy - in translation: our ability to carry out hare brained and massively expensive military adventures in places we have no business being.
I agree, but do you honestly think that being a member of the EU is going to stop this?
Instead of the UK sending troops, the euro countries will combine forces (if they agree with the war in the first place - and there's another issue). There will be so many people trying to take control. We sucked up to the USA when we sent our forces to Iraq and Afghanistan in the hope that Halliburton would throw us a few crumbs when rebuilding started, and look where that got us. I'm not saying you're wrong, and some aspects could work, but I don't think a super-state for everything is the answer.
Complain about this comment
#213 MaxSceptic
So it's a way to allow you to poke fun at Brown because you think he has autistic characteristics?
Do you point and laugh at people with learning disabilities in the street?
Did you mock David Blunkett as Home Secretary for being blind?
Actually, I guess it's too politically correct to do otherwise.
Conservatives are not the nasty party indeed!
Complain about this comment
The Old Guard Conservatives hang around in the background for Cameron in the same way the Old Guard Labour hung around behind Blair in the mid nineties. It is irrelevent unless the Old School mindset is part of the current presentation.
There is headline today on the BBC saying that a Labour MP wants Labour to learn form Obama. The only thing Labour need to learn is that the electorate are not happy with current incumbents policy. That is the message Obama is taking to Bush. Time for something new, listening.
Camerons main problem has been a lack of difference in policy to Brown, that will change. He was in an impossible position with the bail-out, it had to be supported, therefore he had to support Brown, temporarily. Can't see it happening again.
Browns only ploy at present is to say the problem is out there not here, I must help save the world. That can't last. The steps to deal with financial contagion are in place and would seem to have nothing to do with Brown. If I was at the IMF the last two people I would want to hear from wanting to give me advice would be Bush and Brown.
In terms of house market problems you can also add substantially to the figures released for the projections of UK householders having negative equity because anybody who has sold a house will tell you that there are costs in a sale and if you have no money that also has to come out of equity, further locking the housholder in. If house prices are back to 2007 levels in 2013, which is a big if, they will still be down in real terms due to inflation. It is not hard to see 10 to 20 percent of houseowners having very little room for maneouvre for some time.
At present other than a bail-out which had to happen, actually very little is coming out, small tweaks here and there look the most likely. Unlikely to save many who look vulnerable. More not less social discord is likely for Brown.
Complain about this comment
Great one on PMQ's Brown has just berated the Tories on Green policies and in the next breath stated the need for a new Runway at Heathrow.
Fantastic
Complain about this comment
#239 balhamu
Could I just ask you when was the last time you sold a house? Friends of ours have just had an offer. They were originally on the market this time last year for £380,000 and they've just accepted an offer of £250,000. This may not be 40% but it's not that far off, is it? They haven't moved yet, and it could all fall through if their buyers can't get a mortgage.
To say that I'm tired of all the political parties in this country is an understatement. I have seen no evidence that there is one of them who will do what's best for the country and the people first, and not for themselves first.
Complain about this comment
232 Saga
Of course if the military had anything to do with a combined service with the French then we wouldn't go anywhere.
Remember
How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?
Don't know, none have tried it yet!
Complain about this comment
balhamu @243 asks:
So it's a way to allow you to poke fun at Brown because you think he has autistic characteristics?
Answer: The joke is that this man is our Prime Minister. I merely pointed out the bleeding obvious.
Do you point and laugh at people with learning disabilities in the street?
Answer: No.
Did you mock David Blunkett as Home Secretary for being blind?
No. I mocked him for being Nu Labour. I actually admire Blunkett for the strength of his character that allowed him to overcome the physical misfortunate and reach high office. (Unfortunately, this same character made him partial to the 'good life' which resulted in financial irregularities and a liaison with a certain lady who happened to be married to another man at the time, but that's another story... Do you recall the play 'Who's The Daddy?')
Besides, all Nu Labour ministers are politically blind to the reality of the damage they have caused, and continue to cause, this country.
Complain about this comment
"I wonder to what extent the one-size-fits-all European finance policy has had in relation to countries within the single currency dealing with the liquidity problem? This is actually a genuine question, not a back-handed opinion."
Actually, the ECB has done a really excellent job in dealing with the banks' shortage of liquidity in the Eurozone. They pumped massive amounts of short-term money into the markets since last August (07), and lent against an increasingly wide range of collateral, while the BOE dithered and fretted about moral hazard (right question, wrong timing).
The co-ordination problems arose when fiscal policy was needed to deal with the very deep financial crisis. Monetary policy is the sole preserve of the ECB; while fiscal policy, of course, resides with governments. When it came to undertaking a united fiscal response to the crisis, the eurozone countries were well behind the curve. This is an argument for more co-ordination, not less.
Complain about this comment
#246 shellingout
I think the latest stats show an average 7.6% decline since this time last year.
What do you think is more accurate then? 50% decline? 60% decline?
Even if we assume that all repossessed houses and the land they stand on are worthless (i.e. the bank would have to give them away for free - £0), prospective losses would rise to £90 billion * 10% repossessions * 100% house price fall * 90% LTV rato = £8 billion.
Complain about this comment
#246 shellingout
I think the latest stats show an average 7.6% decline since this time last year, but agree it is a bit misleading because the market is dead (equilibrium price is lower, but people are refusing/unable to sell at these prices)
What do you think is more accurate then? 50% decline? 60% decline?
Even if we assume that all repossessed houses and the land they stand on are worthless (i.e. the bank would have to give them away for free - £0), prospective losses would rise to £90 billion * 10% repossessions * 100% house price fall * 90% LTV rato = £8 billion.
Complain about this comment
#246 shellingout
I think the latest stats show an average 7.6% decline since this time last year, but agree it is a bit misleading because the market is dead (equilibrium price is lower, but people are refusing/unable to sell at these prices)
What do you think is more accurate then? 50% decline? 60% decline?
Even if we assume that all repossessed houses and the land they stand on are worthless (i.e. the bank would have to give them away for free - £0), prospective losses would rise to £90 billion * 10% repossessions * 100% house price fall * 90% LTV ratio = £8 billion.
Complain about this comment
98. fairlyopenmind
If they can explain how a multi-language, multi-religion, multi-cultural population will elect a Head of Government, I'd be amazed.
Let's ask the Swiss, they've been doing this since it's existence back in the 19th century. :)
Complain about this comment
#240 TerryNo2
A thought on your question:
" I wonder to what extent the one-size-fits-all European finance policy has had in relation to countries within the single currency dealing with the liquidity problem?"
At least having a single currency forced Euroland to understand that they had to work together on the problem (eventually! c.f Ireland). One of the most dangerous consequences of this depression, as with previous depressions, is that countries turn inwards and adopt a beggar-my-neighbour approach - at least a one sized Euro causes our fellow Europeans to address this question.
Complain about this comment
#248 Max
So why do you refer to Brown as autistic then? Why is it relevant, even if he is?
Complain about this comment
The only question of significance here is what can William Hague identify as his negotiating aims? Clearly many Britons (a majority according to polls) want a relationship based on trade rather than politics, so public support is not going to be the issue. His real challenge is to clearly identify what type of relationship the UK wants with the wider world (both EU and the rest) and then identify the changes to our EU relationship to fit this wider picture.
The vision of international relations we should aim for is free-trade and people movement with North America, the EEA/EU and Australia/New Zealand but political independence from all. Currently the EU is responsible for our trade policy such that we cannot negoitate free trade agreements with the English-speaking world. However there is nothing to stop us signing treaties with those countries to give workers freedom of movement in the English-speaking world.
The key change however must be to prevent the legislative space within which the Westminster parliament can act being shrunken to vanishing point by the ever-swelling body of superior EU law. If this problem is not fixed then a time will inevitably come when Westminster is prevented from acting in any area where the EU has either exclusive or shared competence at which point democracy will effectively be dead in this country. If he were to negotiate that British governments (and not the British state in perpetuity) bind themselves when agreeing to EU measures then I think it would be hard for France and Germany to object. Such a change would mean that we could in future elect new government able to disown what a previous British government had signed up to EU level allowing us an escape route from measures such as the CAP and social chapter. He should also negotiate change such that governments which vote against EU measures (beyond the common market) adopted under QMV are not obliged to implement them themselves. This would mean that EU law in force in any given country really had democratic legitimacy.
William Hague should also identify a fall back position should negotiations break down. One obvious option would be EEA membership which would be pretty straightforward to sell as no change to economics but political freedom. Another fall-back option (a better one technically but possibly a harder one to explain to the public) might be to emulate Canada and Mexico. Canada has a free-trade agreement (NAFTA) with the USA and is currently negotiating free trade and people movement with the EEA/EU while retaining its political independence from all. Mexico has already achieved much of the same and there is no reason why the UK could not do likewise. These worst case scenarios are in my opinion better than the status-quo from both an economic and political perspective.
Complain about this comment
#250 & 251 balhamu
I think the percentage of reduction in property prices has been purposely played down by this government. They say property has reduced by 20-25% when in reality the actual depreciation is far greater than that when other factors have to be taken into account such as cost to move, HiPS, etc.
I can't see this improving if the banks don't start lending out the billions of pounds we gave them to bail them out. I have to say this doesn't look likely in the short-term. Wouldn't you agree?
Complain about this comment
re: 255, balhamu
Because if the PM is useless at relating to others, which he is, then he is incapable of doing his job properly. And you think that's not relevant?
Complain about this comment
grand @ 235
I am afraid that the smell of fear in the Tory ranks is becoming stronger by the day
I hate to say it but that does seem to be the case, actually - it's a bit like the lonely drunk down the pub who shouts louder and louder at no-one in particular as the good people of the world drift away to home and hearth.
How do I know that? ... well ...
Complain about this comment
max @ 248
I actually admire Blunkett for the strength of his character that allowed him to overcome the physical misfortunate and reach high office. (Unfortunately, this same character made him partial to the 'good life'
Strength of character makes people partial to the good life? - is that something else from "your book" Max?
Gee, I must read that one before I get too old and feeble!
Complain about this comment
shelling @ 246
This may not be 40% but it's not that far off, is it?
Yes, the real falls from the frothiest top are up to 50 pc in certain areas.
I still feel, providing we don't go all super cautious 1950's on lending policy, that house prices will stabilise next year and, within a couple of years, will be back to around 2005 or 2006 levels - there's some mega interest rate cuts coming our way remember - down below 3 pc before too long I reckon.
Complain about this comment
#250 & 251 balhamu, 257 shellingout
To have a market, there need to be buyers and sellers. In the current housing "market" there are very few of each. If there's no real market, you can't value the assets bought and sold in it, so no estimate of house price depreciation is likely to be reliable. IMHO.
Complain about this comment
free john @ 256
If this problem is not fixed then a time will inevitably come when Westminster is prevented from acting in any area where the EU has either exclusive or shared competence
But that's what we want, isn't it? An end to bad government from Westminster?
C'mon, I bet you look at Brown and Cameron and Clegg, and the ridiculous way they carry on, and think there is a better way ... don't you?
Complain about this comment
257 shellingout
I agree. Lending appears to be coming back, but with housing it is timid, and first time buyers have no incentive to buy, and will not for the best part of 2 years. I think the situation is far far worse than the government wants to admit on housing, which, like it or not, remains central to the UK economy. If you have negative equity you cannot sell. If you have no negative equity but are nearly there, and no money you are in a terrible position because you do not have the cash to enable a sale and do not have the equity to release to pay for the sale. The figures of houseowners affected has to be great deal bigger than the raw million odd aired.
This really is the worse of all worlds for a housing market recovery. Foreclosures are absolutely inevitable and that will depress the market more. This is new ground and Brown is bankrupt of any new ideas to help, it is all very small beer. I know of potential first time buyers who have been steadily turned off the idea of buying a house, and are now just waiting to see an upturn and are not bothered if it takes years. They are totally switched off the idea. Sensible, but they will take convincing to climb back in, any sales person will tell you it is difficult to resell an idea that has gone cold..
Anything economically related to an active housing market will be hit. And it is most unlikely to return in a hurry, certainly not quick enough to save a business struggling right now.
Anything which was showing signs of stress, eg some, but not all of the high street, will go. The internet will fill the hole.
What is needed is a mechanism to allow relatively modest negative equity trading but I see no sign of Brown moving in that direction and the banks won't because it switches a secured loan backed by insurance to an unsecured loan. It looks to me as though Brown to all intents and purposes wants to walk away and leave a whole section of society high and dry. Predominately young families.
This 'walking away' behaviour is nothing new. I remember seeing, I think it was Nigel Lawson, in a 90's interview just shrugging his shoulders and saying people who buy a house or run a business take a risk (If it wasnt him, then apologies to NL, and it was one of his buddies). To give him his due, which I do not feel very much like doing, he did I believe, try to float a proposal to have a two tier interest market, one for long term loans eg mortgages, being much lower, but it was scotched, too much leakage from one account to the other I presume, still didnt bother him, he was wealthy, married a heiress I believe.
I am afraid I am convinced that the government is totally detatched from reality and has been for some considerable time. Labour seems by and large, in actions taken, whatever is said by Labour, simply to continue as though nothing was happening, keep spending, keep pushing surveilance through, keep losing data. The only exception is the bail-out which had to happen and which whatever Brown likes to pretend, started in the US. Cameron has yet to really say anything other than the obvious. Cable, who isnt even leader of the LibDems, is making more of the running.
Complain about this comment
sagamix@263 "C'mon, I bet you look at Brown and Cameron and Clegg, and the ridiculous way they carry on, and think there is a better way ... don't you?"
From Europe? Berlusconi? Chirac??
Complain about this comment
I quite like it how it is. No need to eurovision our banks...pahhh!
Complain about this comment
#253
That's a good point.
There are quite a few countries with multiple languages who can get some sensible "internal" political consensus. But they tend to coalesce around a "state" language for political purposes.
(And many of them have been working at it for centuries - or else a "dominant" language was imposed by the group who created the territory.)
I rather fancy that the "multi-religions" bit is harder. Switzerland has a primary religion (Christianity) as its background - and in essence variants of that have been able to work together.
I don't say it is not possible. Just a bit harder than most folk feel. And since the EU stretches (or aspires to) a realm from the atlantic, Mediterranean to the Urals, its going to be a while until some common language emerges.
Latin did it for a while. French was the lingua franca of diplomacy for a while. English is the dominant international language - until Mandarin starts to exert a little pressure...
Complain about this comment
#258
Fine, say that.
I don't understand why Max refers to the PM as autistic as an insult.
Complain about this comment
#192 Maxsceptic
[BTW - I disagree: I don't think you and Chuck are similar types. You try to reason and you don't pontificate or use bogus management-consultant jargon. Also Chuck has been everywhere, and done everything. He is the font of all wisdom and ever prescient. You, fairlyopenmind, are just mortal].
Shameful admission. Worked for a "Consultancy-led, solutions delivering" organisation.
Hated all that jargon stuff. Many very bright people, with excellent understanding of IT practicalities and "management skills", but rarely having a minimal insight into the real businesses they engaged with.
I came out of the transport & logistics industry. Saw quite a number of major companies kick out consultancies, because they didn't want to waste time and money teach bright young things what they should be "consulting" about.
Just don't see that resolve in Government.
There are not enough folk who simply kick aside the "consultants" who have no practical understanding.
Which is why we pay for some pretty useless IT projects...
Complain about this comment
pammy @ 265
From Europe? Berlusconi? Chirac??
No, not those two!
Complain about this comment
#257 shellingout
Does the Government control the housing figures of independent mortgage lenders like the Halifax now?
September 2008 - Halifax notes 13% annual decline in House Prices (and that house prices began falling from Q4 2008)
So your 25% fall to date is wrong, as is your assertion that the Government has been fiddling the figures - where's your source for it?
re things won't improve in the housing market
You are right, and it would be undesirable for them to do so. Houses are still massively over-valued, compared to e.g. rental yields.
Complain about this comment
#262 pammyammy
You're right (as I mentioned in #251)
Complain about this comment
#232 saga
"seeing an end to our independent armed forces and foreign policy - in translation: our ability to carry out hare brained and massively expensive military adventures in places we have no business being."
Don't disagree, if you mean that the UK has been engaged in some doubtful exercises for the last 20 odd years.
I thought that the Kuwait war was fairly justified. There was no physical threat to the UK, but potential impacts for us and most of Europe. Always thought the Allies should have pushed on and chucked out Saddam.
It's a little difficult to work out where any external intervention is justified.
Why would the USA have bothered to get involved with WWI?
Why did they bother (again) in WWII?
Guess we all fell a little relieved that they did bother.
Not at all sure about helping Yugoslavia to break up. I can't see the UK engaging to allow (for example) Florida to break away from the USA because the demographics changed.
Really not sure about Iraq. But I can't imagine the US and UK taking action against Saudi Arabia, from which source the Al-Quaeda movement emerged.
And really not sure that a "European" response to a genuine danger would ever get off the ground.
I guess we tend to ignore stuff that the French have done in post-colonial territories over the years.
Hey ho.
Complain about this comment
#225
"By the way a 'free trade' area as some want (#109 Swanadoni) would have you sent home as an illegal alien and you would not be able to work or live in France, as you say that you now do. That is the Anti-European / Euro-sceptic (not a term I like to use) position."
Sorry, John.
I don't live and work in France. I've never said that! Worked for a French company for a while. US and UK companies as well. Spent quite a while traipsing around Europe and elsewhere for business reasons (and for some pleasurable reasons too...)
Have a French wife (who came to the UK as an "alien" many years ago) and was never threatened with deportation.
I have never argued against European co-operation.
The origins of the EU were the Coal & Steel Community (which a Labour government declined to enter).
The EEC - a fairly borderless trade environment - always seemed like a good idea. But it still hasn't happened yet!
My beef is that, if you can't achieve - over a 40 year period - the fundamental free-trade zone, than how can you expect the citizenship of all the EU members to believe in all the other stuff?
Thousands of European people lived, bought property and worked outside their "native" countries decades ago. Well before the EU.
So it's a little odd to imply that it's an outcome of the EU legislation.
You don't need a centralised government (bunch of Commisioners) to permit the flow of people.
Please understand that I am strongly in favour of pan-European work.
Complain about this comment
If Britain should leave the EU, then apart from being an overcrowded island in the North Atlantic,, where would that leave us?
We are longer the head of an empire where the sun never sets. Other empires have taken our place on the World stage. The most recent being the USA, post WW2. And now we see the rise of China and other Economies in the Far East.
Would the only alternative open to Britain be an even closer special relationship with an America, that may in itself be in a state of decline as a military, economic and social model of freedom and democracy.
Perhaps, now is the time for Britain to re-examine the special relationship, and take it's place as a European State, and work for what is best for a Greater Europe.
Complain about this comment
sagamix@270
Hooray! We agree!! And thank you for both reading and thinking about my posts.
Complain about this comment
balhamu@272
Yeah, sorry. Think I posted during long lack of mods.
Complain about this comment
balhamu @255 asks:
"So why do you refer to Brown as autistic then? Why is it relevant, even if he is?"
I originally referred (some weeks back) to Asperger Syndrome - a mild form of autism characterised by poor communication skills, obsessive or repetitive routines, poor social interaction and physical clumsiness.
Not the end of the world, I agree, but not the qualities I would seek in a prime Minister.
Unfair? Sure. But that is the reality of the world we live in.
Complain about this comment
sagamix @260,
You misunderstood me (or, I was unclear):
I admired Blunkett's strength of character.
Blunkett's character was/is strong - but also flawed.
No contradiction there.
Complain about this comment
263 sagamix @263,
Yes, there surely must be a 'better way'.
But it's definitely not the EU.
Complain about this comment
The Lisbon Treaty.........how many times will the Irish have to go through yet another refererendum before the rest of Europe learns how to interpret the word 'no'. When will the UK have the same democratic choice to state its view in a similar referendum.......as so famously promised in the Labour manifesto. When will France abide by the same EU rules that we follow. Nick Robinson - when will you jump off the labour bandwagon long enough to acknowledge that democracy is dying in this country, to be replaced by a dictatorship that sells you stories of weapons of mass destruction, a PM who answers questions he hasn't been asked in PMQ's and assures you that education is a major priority, whilst depriving the young of their university grants. Doesn't he comprehend that the UK has an aging population and we need educated people to work to support the future economy - not go straight from school onto the dole. If only it was our election being held next week.............that would sort out the wheat from the chaff and, hopefully, give me a little less to moan about. Sitting on the political fence may be a little uncomfortable for a chap, but I thought that's was political commentators were supposed to do. Silly me!
Complain about this comment
The main problem that the EU is that it is federation without a directly elected executive. There is no one who is motivated to look after the interests of the Union as a whole.
The members of the Council of Ministers are naturally interested mainly in the concerns of their individual states and the Commission lacks the authority that direct election would give it.
Both of the main UK parties are "little englander" in their attitudes, in spite of it being obvious that membership of a strong EU would be a great advantage in the modern world.
It would not be surprising if the other members of the EU were one day to decide to kick the UK out.
Complain about this comment
282. At 9:44pm on 29 Oct 2008, stanblogger wrote:
" ... in spite of it being obvious that membership of a strong EU would be a great advantage in the modern world."
It isn't obvious to me and I have been listening to the arguments for forty years and was originally taken in by them and was originally pro- Common Market.
There is no point in having an influence on what goes on in the world if you have no influence on what goes on in your own country.
It is unacceptable to be in a political union with the continentals. It is unacceptable to have continental police arresting people in this country.
Further:
"It would not be surprising if the other members of the EU were one day to decide to kick the UK out."
Please, please, please would the other states throw us out!!!
We have a rubbishy sick-joke pseudo-democracy. Please would they helps and throw us out!!??
Because our "democracy" is not working one of our options is to annoy the other states so much that they throw us out. So far from aiding sensible co-operation the "EU" actually has created an incentive to be destructive.
Complain about this comment
We do not merely need to leave the "EU". We need to change the rubbishy system that got us in and has kept us in.
On of my suggestions is that we need the single transferable vote system. The current system encourages and almost forces people to vote tactically. If a new party arises which appeals to you but you think it might not get in you might vote for one of the worn-out apparatchik parties. The voting system is primitive and out of date. The British people deserve better. Everybody in the world deserves better.
Complain about this comment
#284
Your second paragraph is probably the most (possibly the only) sensible comment you 've come up with on this forum, but I'm not sure how it would meet your objectives. Probably the UK party likely to benefit most from such a system would be the Libdems, who are probaly also the most pro-European.
Complain about this comment
#271 balhamu
Does the Government control the housing figures of independent mortgage lenders like the Halifax now?
No - I didn't say that. What I said was that I felt the Government was playing down the figures. If you take our friend's sale into account (and several others like it, I'll wager) they had to drop the price by a lot more than 25%. That's not a statistic, it's a fact.
September 2008 - Halifax notes 13% annual decline in House Prices (and that house prices began falling from Q4 2008)
I'm sure the Halifax works on a mean figure but the people at the sharp end are the people who are selling at more of a loss than is actually quoted.
So your 25% fall to date is wrong, as is your assertion that the Government has been fiddling the figures - where's your source for it?
I do not have a source, other than our friends' experience, which as I've said before is a fact. Not sure how the government stats are actually worked out but you can bet they will try to make themselves look as good as they can!
re things won't improve in the housing market
You are right, and it would be undesirable for them to do so. Houses are still massively over-valued, compared to e.g. rental yields.
They may be over-valued, but we must remember that Mr Brown,as Chancellor, and a self-purported world statesman, knew very well what was going on in America as far back as 2005 and yet, he chose to sit back, do nothing and let banks mis-sell mortgages and loans during the housing boom, so that he could collect a windfall tax on stamp duty. His lack of diligence has cost this country dear.
Now things are coming home to roost, he needs to distance himself by saying that this has always been a global problem.
Complain about this comment
285. At 08:35am on 30 Oct 2008, Iantownhill wrote:
"#284
Your second paragraph is probably the most (possibly the only) sensible comment you 've come up with on this forum, but I'm not sure how it would meet your objectives. Probably the UK party likely to benefit most from such a system would be the Libdems, who are probaly also the most pro-European. "
It would give new parties a chance and enable us to get rid of the three big, worn-out apparatchik parties.
One of my objectives is a worthwhile democracy.
As to my other objective - getting us out of the "EU":
I am probably going to have to vote for UKIP. UKIP have all sorts of policies about which I have doubts. If there was a new anti-"EU" party which just had the objective of getting us out and reforming our "democracy" and not a lot else, I could give them my vote which would then be transferred to UKIP if they did not get enough votes. As it stands at the moment, if I voted for this new party and they didn't get enough votes my vote would be "wasted", which isn't fair. One of the positive characteristics of the Brits is that they are fair.
As regards the LibDems. I have never voted for them. I have sometimes thought of voting for them but have not done so because of their stance on "Europe."
If there was a new party LIDEM2, which was anti-"EU" , then I might vote for them.
Despite your rejection of my views, the plain fact is that I usually(but not always) agree with a majority of the Brits, or they with me if you like.
Complain about this comment
181 fairlyopenmind
wrote:
"You don't need a centralised government (bunch of Commissioners) to permit the flow of people" (etc).
Are you advocating an unregulated market? Just like the free-market banking solution we are benefiting from so richly today!
Europe's institution are not perfect, no state's institutions are, but every time any from of well meaning attempt is made to move towards a better administered Europe some part of the mainly British red-top press fulminates about bent bananas!
Complain about this comment
John from Herndon (288): There have not been attempts to reform the EU to make it better. The reforms in the treaties of Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon have been about making the EU more federal which is a very different thing from making it better. Those treaties have aimed to move policy areas from the intergovernmental 'pillars' of EU decision-making to the so-called first-pillar of supra-national decision-making originally designed for the common market. The pillar (sometimes called the ‘community method’) is characterised by the EU Commission having a monopoly on all legislative proposals for EU law that is superior to any other for 500 million people and which we are required to implement (no matter how we vote) if we cannot assemble a blocking minority in the Council of Ministers. The Lisbon treaty would largely compete the process by abolishing the distinction between pillars completely and renaming the original EC treaty that defined the 'community method' the treaty defining the functioning of the Union. The 'community method' is inherently undemocratic but that did not matter a great deal when it was only used to decide minor issues of common market regulation (e.g. maximum curvature of cucumbers etc.), but it matters a great now that it applies to the general issues of politics that we used to decide in general elections.
The EU could be made better, but that will require real reform and not the federalism we have been offered to date. And that reform will only be achieved if we have a new government go into negotiations with a clear idea of what it wants to achieve.
Complain about this comment
Well I never thought I'd see the day when I agreed with Norman Tebbitt.
Complain about this comment
The statement " If the irish government ask....to vote again on the Lisbon treaty.." is such a throw-away indication of what really could happen. Politicians in Europe pay lip-service to the notion of Democracy. Yes, its what gets them elected but they usually repay that "kindness" with a contempt which is barely disguised. Look at Brown , reneging on his clear Manifesto Committment. Thank God that the Irish stood their ground. And please give them the resolve to kick this gerry-mandering suggestion into the sea.
Complain about this comment
#289. Freeborn-John
wrote:
"The EU could be made better"
I don't think anybody would argue with that - but to make it better we need to be inside negotiating.
Complain about this comment
Britain is indeed a ticking time bomb. Not for the reasons mentioned here, but because people will not put up with enforced acceptance of mass migration for much longer.
Complain about this comment
282. "It would not be surprising if the other members of the EU were one day to decide to kick the UK out."
It would be the first and only thing that the majority of the British public - myself included - would ever thank the EU for doing.
Kick us out now!! Please!!
Complain about this comment
John from Herndon (292): To make the EU better we need to negotiate something better with other current members. But to suggest that we have to be inside no matter what is an obvious fallacy. There must to be some limit to what the EU might morph into beyond which we would no longer wish to be inside. Reasonable people may differ on where that limit is but not that it exists.
For me the limit has been reached when EU treaties are forced on countries their people have rejected in referendum, because once that limit is crossed the road to despotism lies clear ahead. Where do you place it?
Complain about this comment
When did this myth start that Thatcher is an anti-European? She was part of Edward Heath's 1973 government that, without a referendum, took us into the Common Market. When the 1975 Labour government held a referendum (which she again opposed) on our continued membership of the then EEC, it was the new Tory leader Thatcher, who was credited most with turning public opinion that was 75% in favour of a "no" vote into a 65% "yes". It was Thatcher who signed (without a referendum) The European Single Act, which gave us political union within the EEC and effectively surrendered our political sovereignty.
No British politician has done more for the cause of European integration than Margaret Thatcher.
Complain about this comment
Europe is a ticking time bomb only matter of time before it implodes on itself and theres a great big mess that'll cost lots of money to sort out - thats the way to fix things isn't it? MONEY MONEY MONEY! its the saviour and cause of all things great - and miserable in this life, its great when you got it, but miserable when ya can't afford to keep ya house or - LIVE! - to be honest tho' I'd rather be part of Europe than say, America - nothing lasts forever tho' money, fuel, food, clothes, sooner people get that into their heads the better - because then they might STOP moaning!! this financial crisis was inevitable im not surprised in the slightest i am surprised people couldnt see this coming! NOTHING IS FOREVER read it. learn its meaning. realisation will kick in.....
Complain about this comment
Winston Churchill was right. Europe must -and will- become a United States of Europe. But he spoke of a democratic USE. What we now have -and the Treaty of Lisbon irrevocably enshrines- is an undemocratic USE in which a top heavy bureaucracy pursues the wishes and intentions of big business. That's what corporate fascism means. Winston Churchill would have been horrified. He spent his whole political life fighting that. That's what the father of fascism, Gabriele d'Annonzio, forsaw. That's what Benito Mussolini in Italy, Francisco Franco in Spain and Oliveira Salazar in Portugal set up. And that's what Adolf Hitler partly copied in Germany. Whilst Hitler and Mussolini were racists, Franco and Salazar weren't. Fascism isn't racism. A fascist State is a State governed by and for big business. Both Franklin Roosevelt and Dwight Eisenhower warned that America was also going down that road but nobody listened. The Conservatives must persuade the EU to democratise itself. We need direct elections for the President of the Commission, a two-chamber Legislature consisting of a directly elected Council of the Nations and Regions and a directly elected Parliament of Europe. The Legislature needs to have the joint responsibility of vetting Presidential nominations to the Commission. Each House needs to have the power to sack individual Commissioners or the entire Commission. Each House needs to have the power to amend or reject all financial measures. Without these powers there can be no democracy. Specialised interest bodies (such as the European Central Bank or the big business mouthpiece, the Economic and Social Committee) should have neither legislative function nor veto powers over anything. They are the motors of fascism in the present constitutional arrangements and they must be neutered. All constitutional arrangements and changes from hereon -including further expansion of the Union- should be subject to Referendum by all the citizens of the Union. If the Conservatives can secure that, all Europe will bless and praise them. If they cannot secure that, UK should leave this Union and invite like-minded nations to join her in starting another which all european nations and all countries that were once colonised by European nations should be invited to join.
Complain about this comment
#295 Freeborn-John
wrote:
"There must to be some limit to what the EU might morph into beyond which we would no longer wish to be inside"
Yes, just as there is also a limit for wishing to inside a United Kingdom. Charles the First found this out the hard and sharp way in 1649. All states, including Europe, are managed by permission of the people.
I am not willing to be an apologist for the defeatist attitude towards Europe that you appear to be espousing.
Complain about this comment
I agree with #298. We need more democracy both in the EU and in the UK.
Politicians need to stop discarding the opinion of the majority on the grounds that they are 'ignorant'.
Complain about this comment
Joining the Euro would most definatly have a negative impact our Financial Service sector.
It would not free up the Job market, and as we know the British don't tend to intergrate that well aboroad.
Hence I believe joining the Euro is not exactly the right move.
The E.U itself is a vaild Organisation in principle, yet it isn't exactly that fair. Something to do with the C.A.P which I cant explain.
We do need to be part of the EU, as Its rather like the UN.
I must remind those....Britain will never be bullied.
Complain about this comment
The BBC is once again confusing the eu with Europe. Europe is a continent. The eu quango is failed and discredited experiment.
Complain about this comment
As for the EU, the way in is slippery and the way out is very sticky. This project means so many different things to different people, but it is most certainly the path to a superstate that the French and the Germans have in mind. It will be death by a thousand cuts for the UK. I think we are a quite a number of slices into it already.
Complain about this comment
303. At 02:29am on 31 Oct 2008, dlawrenceny wrote:
"As for the EU, the way in is slippery and the way out is very sticky. This project means so many different things to different people, but it is most certainly the path to a superstate that the French and the Germans have in mind. It will be death by a thousand cuts for the UK. I think we are a quite a number of slices into it already."
Socrates would think the "EU" was the best thing since sliced Persian.
Complain about this comment
John from Herndon (299): Who is being defeatist? After all I am the one suggesting improvements where as you are admitting that the EU is far from perfect (288) but saying that we have to stay inside at any cost. It seems to me that it is your position which is rather defeatist in refusing to believe that improvements to our liking can be negotiated? Is there really nothing you can suggest that would improve the EU? No limit at which you would find it intolerable to remain inside? If not someone might easily mistake you for a whole-hearted supporter of the federalist project just trying to shut down discussion about change.
Let's take the issue of the rising volume of European law. Unless to Brussels institutions stop producing legislation it will rise without end. Each piece of EU law is superior to national law and requires that we remove conflicting national legislation from the statue books. The inevitable end result of this will be that a time will be reached when national parliaments cannot legislate with serious consequences for the power of our votes to shape our lives. One may debate the time when we arrive at this point but not the destination itself. Do you agree with this destination and if not what counter-proposal do have to mine that EU agreements (in political areas beyond the common market) should only be binding on those governments that entered into them (and not on all future governments as at present)?
Complain about this comment
#305. Freeborn-John
All states as I indicated in #299 govern with the acquiescence of their peoples.
Why do you oppose a federalist Europe - what it is about the undefined term 'federalist' that you find difficult - particularly when there are no details of such an institution?
In response to you last paragraph: - Subsidiarity.
Governments and states do not have 'destinations'. Everything always changes all constitutions are continuously updated. Nothing if fossilised forever. By asking for a 'destination' you are surely putting yourself in the position of being Anti-European are you not? All government is an on-going project. To want to opt out of responsibility for participating in the process is unrealistic and is also likely to achieve a worse outcome for the state that does.
Complain about this comment
The EU has been very carefully slipped into place with no major issue on which to say, hold on we did not vote for this, and now we have yet another government that is giving our country away peicemeal to the dictators in Brussels.
They can only be dictators because if you dare to be against them they all come out in force against you. They do not care that the whole idea now costs billiions for nothing but unnecessary laws on reduculous subjects, even to fining people who put national insignia on their number plates instead of the detested stars of the EU.
It is time that the Consetvative party, the one that lead by the traitor Heath, that got us in by lies and double dealing went to the poles on a mandate to hold a referendum on the issue immediatly on taking office, infact to go to the poles with a manefest to take the UK out of Europe on the day after winning would be even better.
However as all the main parties are riddled with Europhiles, who are probably in the pay of Brussels, we have no chance of a referendum ever happening. The Europe I was born into after WW2 has rapidly become the Nazi ideal that was suposedly defeated in 1944.
Complain about this comment
How far does EU go? Interesting thought. Does Barclays Bank feel safer borrowing from Middle East sources, rather than placing themselves completely in the hands of Brown and Darling? I have my own opinions, but would like to know what wiser bloggers than myself think.
Complain about this comment
John @299 & 306
I repeat my 120:
A United States of Europe with a President elected by the people of each country?
With those people voting for a politician that they know - generally one of their countrymen / women?
Which EU country has the largest population?
If you think about this, you may agree with dhl@303
Complain about this comment
John_from_Hendon (306): The EU is not (no matter how much it wants to be) a state. Nor does it have a People.
A nation (or people) is a group with sufficient commonality that they desire to live under the same government. There is no difference in US political terminology between the words 'national' and 'federal', but the US federal government is only accepted as legitimate because it is a national government. The situation is the opposite in the EU, such that a federal government based in Brussels would not be accepted as legitimate because it would not be national. It would in fact be a mechanism whereby large nations could outvote smaller ones and compel their peoples to live under policies contrary to their interest. If you think that is a good idea then please go out on the streets of Virginia and campaign for the replacement of the national political institutions in Washington DC with a federal multinational government of the Americas that would allow Brazilians, Mexicans, etc. to decide the policies that Americans live under. When you have persuaded your own countrymen that this is a good idea then I might begin to accept you coming on here and arguing for the replacement of my national government. Until that time I will conclude that you just don’t understand the relationship between government and people.
Complain about this comment
We were "conned" by Ted Heath over Europe, it was supposed to be a trading Bloc, the Germans and French didn't want as in because we ask "Why?" They had already decided the fate of Europe with the sole design of "blocking" us out.
Our laws are made and decided by Brussels, we are going to have a National Anthem and flag, we can be arrested in our homes and transported to another E.U. Country without recourse to a Lawyer, yet we must abide by the Human Rights.
The E.U. will "force" Eire to toe the line, just as they will force us if we don't abide by the signing of the un-elected Prime Minister, Gordon Brown.
The sooner we have a voice, the better, vote NO now.
Complain about this comment
164. At 9:02pm on 28 Oct 2008, credit-crunchy wrote:
"Leave the EU? How ridiculous and defeatist. In any case, most of the malcontents are English so where would that leave other parts of the UK such as Scotland?"
Do you have any statistics to back this statement up with?
Complain about this comment
311. At 8:06pm on 31 Oct 2008, frank46 wrote:
' ... We were "conned" by Ted Heath over Europe, it was supposed to be a trading Bloc, the Germans and French didn't want as in because we ask "Why?" ...'
On Newsnight some years ago one of the people who negotiated the original entry into the Common Market* stated that the trouble with the EU was that the British people had been lied to all along and that there had always been an intention to create a political union. The newsreader changed the subject .
* Lord Denman? Lord Stenman?
Complain about this comment
#310. Freeborn-John
You seem almost to deliberately and wilfully misinterpret my postings.
You got hung up on the word 'people' in my previous post. I was using people as shorthand for the set of individuals over whose lives an organised system of shared rule and regulation exists by common consent.
All of the group homo sapiens are the people of the earth - but perhaps you wish to dispute this too.
The people of the UK are Europeans by virtue of the physical location of our islands being on the continental shelf and firmly attached to Europe - again you may wish to dispute this, but frankly I am not going to be very interested in your response if you do.
#313. SuffolkBoy2
I recall a personal discussion about the potential NON from de Gaulle with Ted Heath at the time. From his perspective de Gaulle had valid reasons to believe that the UK would not cooperate with the other Nations of Europe and was more of a Trojan horse than anything else. In discussing a speech of the General all Ted Heath could respond was that it was a straw in the wind. de Gaulle had quite valid reasons for his belief that the UK was far too likely to take the part of the USA rather than that of its fellow Europeans and this still dogs negotiations to this day. The situation was not helped by Ted Heath's unusual and some may say extraordinary French pronunciation.
#311. frank46
The EEC was always about more than a trading block. (also see the previous my paragraphs) There was always the implied need to develop and maintain a relationship between the new federal (only created in 1871) Germany and the rest of the older European Nations such that it was less likely that the relationship broke down and we once again slaughtered each other.
The six nations needed to ensure that they developed together. We chose to remain aloof initially for the reason that joining would mean putting our relationship with the USA under strain - to whom we were massively indebted. De Gaulle never really forgot what he saw as our betrayal.
If you recall that just at the outset of the last war war there was a serious(?) proposal that France and the UK should become one Nation (once again!). If it had happened the Norman French used to signify Royal Assent to bills passed in parliament would have been updated I guess.
Complain about this comment
How to improve the E.U. as it stands:
i)I would propose greater means tested databases upon Ad and As.
ii)Greater talks upon world AID and meeting the G8 green targets.
iii)Proposals upon speding within Europe itself.
iv)How to protect single currency nations.
v)What the future prospects hold for the E.U. itself.
vi)How single currency nations stand within the E.u. in regard to funding and various other commitments financially
The E.U. stands for much more than just a constitution. The Euro plays a major role in "friendships." Trade etc....
We have to ensure that British exports are appealing and at a fair price. Subsidation of taxes and "embargos" may be of use to ensure that Britain can hit the shelves.
In affect marketing the nation to Europe.
We do have culture belive it or not. ; )
Complain about this comment
When the EU has a Army, Navy and Air Force under a single command supported by all member countries, then will the EU be more than just a haphazard collective of nationalistic treaties.
Until that day ..whistle in the wind.
Complain about this comment
316. At 12:11pm on 01 Nov 2008, stalisman wrote:
"When the EU has a Army, Navy and Air Force under a single command supported by all member countries, then will the EU be more than just a haphazard collective of nationalistic treaties. ..."
When that happens then the half-hidden megalomania will really come out.
"...supported by all member countries..."
It will probably be that the apparatchik-infested regimes will support it, but the people not.
Complain about this comment
At least the Third Reich was only planned for one thousand years. The "EU" is meant to last for ever.
What "EU"-lovers have done to us is as if Churchill had forced the Royal Navy to help Hitler's army to cross the channel.
Complain about this comment
314. At 11:27pm on 31 Oct 2008, John_from_Hendon wrote:
" ...
If you recall that just at the outset of the last war war there was a serious(?) proposal that France and the UK should become one Nation (once again!). ..."
I am not sure on my facts on this one, BUT I thought that what was proposed was a common citizenship and not a common state.
Complain about this comment
It really makes me laugh when I see Tories moaning about how we have little say in our affairs because of the big bad EU !This is a party who so dedicated to this country that they took it apon themselve to place into the hands of those nasty europeans the vital sinews of this nation ! The water I drink , the gas I keep warm by , and the electicity that lights my home are owned by another country !! They sold us out ! So please stop telling us how much you care about us and this country ! You are not credible at best and at worse you are lying !!
Complain about this comment
#319. SuffolkBoy2
Never mind come the predicted sea level rises of climate change most of Suffolk will be once again reunited with Doggerland under the North Sea.
Doggerland is, if I recall, the name that various archaeologists have given to the vast plain that once enabled you citizens of Suffolk to walk over to the your cousins on the continent!
Before that is there was 'fog in the channel and the continent was cut-off'!
Complain about this comment
why is it we need passports to travel into mainland europe and no one else does is it not contrary to european law
Complain about this comment
The idea of a New Europe belonged to the age of the "Superpowers" and the need to have enough "muscle" to cope with the possibility of another World War and/or economic World chaos.
In this context "big government" seemed the only option for immediate survival. But now that we know that our existing economic system is not sustainable in the long run it is obviously stupid to continue with a state set up in which national states may take up to 40% of GDP in taxation and borrow up to another 40% of GDP. And that is just to fund themselves! Some at least of the costs of Europe are on top of that.
Of course the need for big government arrived about 200 years ago in the Age of Revolution that produced a Euro-centric world order and a constant threat or hope of revolution and anarchy. In Britain we believe that we fought during that period for principles of freedom and democracy against the ambitions of the French, the Germans, and the Soviet Union to impose their vision on everyone else.
English freedom and democracy, however, was based upon small government and a sustainable social and economic system. Perhaps we will finally manage to convince other nations that they are capable of operating in this way without hand-outs for individuals or states.
Casseroleon
Complain about this comment
The E.U. seems to be governed by Germany, and France.
Of what benefit is that to other single currency nations, who are clearly on another wavelength economically.
The E.U. and the Euro are closely linked, due to the nations involved.
Smokiesteele I totally agree with you, although the more security this country can get the better.
Maybe Denmark will be our friend!?
Complain about this comment
Hey Y'all
Seems y'all mighty fired up and far be it from me to chuck my hat into a nest of rattle snakes and pretend I know what y'all talkin' about.
may I just say Hi and pass me some of that coffee simerin' on that fire y'all sittin' 'round.
Complain about this comment
I'm new to blogging but I am disheartened to see that journalists' blogs are mere advertisements for themselves.
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS