Duelling gentlemen
Not so long ago gentlemen friends who fell out would have taken their pistols to France to resolve their differences in a duel. These days it would seem that you use your PR agency to send a letter to the Times and put out statements on your behalf. The aim is not to kill your rival but to kill off his career.
So, where are we in the duel between Nat Rothschild and George Osborne? Osborne's been badly hurt but not fatally wounded.
There are now two conflicting accounts of exactly what happened in Corfu but key details are shared - the possibility of a donation by LDV - a firm controlled by Oleg Deripaska - was considered by the Tories and later rejected.
The dispute is over whether the story goes much further than that. Rothschild and now his American business associate - the financier James Goodwin - claim that Osborne pursued the idea of a donation in a discussion before, during and after a visit to the oligarch's yacht. Osborne denies that strenuously, admitting only to being present when a donation was suggested by Rothschild.
A few facts make this story curious:
A donation from LDV wouldn't have been illegal.
It would have been a pretty daft way of trying to covertly channel money to the Tory party since a Google search would reveal that LDV is controlled by the Russian oligarch.
£50,000 is a trivial sum to the Tory party and an absurdly small sum to secure from a billionaire.
So, either Osborne and Tory fundraiser, Andrew Feldman hoped for a much bigger donation or they weren't much bothered by the funds on offer but couldn't resist the prospect of a trip to meet an intriguing man on a magnificent yacht.
The question today is whether Rothschild considers the duel to be over or to have only just begun. Is he willing to go further - not just about this story but about other things he claims to know about the shadow chancellor? Friends who've known you for 20 years have plenty of stories to tell. Is Nat Rothschild ready to tell them or does he consider it time to put the pistols away?
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~14~RS~)
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I repeat my comments of yesterday. This is not really about the money (unless you live in the Westminster village). This is about the total lack of judgement shown by Osborne and the fact that if a friend of 20 years cannot trust him to keep confidences why should I trust him to be Chancellor?
He sold a friendship down the river for a few cheap quotes from Mandleson regarding GB. And we all knew them anyway.
Good opportunity to bring back David Davis?
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The whole purpose of a duel is for a gentleman to protect his honour. In this case there are no gentlemen, so there will not be a duel. Just skeletons rattling in a cupboard and various characters getting their knickers into a metaphorical twist.
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Extra! Extra! Read all about it!
Tory refuses trivial donation!
Is seriously can't believe that the BBC are still trying to make this into news whilst Mandelson escapes any scrutiny.
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Should we be concerned by the number of old-boy connections between these men of power and influence? It seems everybody is somebody's old chum from the Bullingdon Club. Patronage still seems more important than talent when it comes to advancement. Osborne was unwise to bite the hand that helped him up.
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Do politicians live on the same planet as the rest of us? (Rhet.) My cat was sick this morning, I'd rather vote for the sick than any of these buffoons.
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Surely the point of fund raising is to put out feelers whereever you can. If you get a bite you run it through the rule book. If it's legit and not politically dangerous then you accept it, otherwise you decline it. That appears to be what happened here. The rest is just innuendo and mischief making.
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Nat has had plenty of time to reflect between each of his actions - and still the PR continued.
I wonder whether this is the end? I also wonder who else fears about being in the frame on any alleged misdeeds.
As allegations fly then witnesses are needed. Sooner or later, we'll know all the names in Nat's contacts book. What do you think?
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As Osborne has already been variously described in the media as a cad, blackguard, bounder, footpad and so on, then a duel seems highly appropriate.
An old-fashioned duel that is.
The Tories are rather keen on blood sports are'nt they?
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yet again a minor storey has exploded into big news, a story being used for political gain over opposition.
well as for a duel may be it shoyuld not just be these two but there respective parties spin merchants too.
if osborne is guilty so what its not like he was going to buy a house with the money.
each party is guilty of missdeeds and to be honest the public expects it from them these days, we all know how corrupt westminster is and how they run riot over the rules in there self interested ways.
sadly its we the people who have allowed these parties to continue along this road and become more important than the job they were set up to do thus its up to us the people to resolve the issue, at elections dont vote for party but vote for independent runners, chop down these parties ,remove there power base and kickstart a government by the people,for the people.
we should not fear government, government should fear the people, becouse with out the people behind them they are no more than a dictatorship.
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George Osbourne should come out and say, he is sorry and will support 100% State Funding of Political Parties. (Then his Tory pals will dump him for being sensible)
The only reason no donation was accepted (they asked for one!, do you worry about that) is because the Russian realized, George couldn't deliver anything, he was all froth and know substance. Something the UK has discovered also these last few months (credit crunch)
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If there was any doubt that Messrs Mandelson & Campbell are back at the very heart of the NuLAb election spin machine, we need look no further than the way the BBC is lapping this one up. Sky News, not exactly known as an impartial observer when it comes to cheer leading for Liebour, refer to this as a 'Soap Opera', but it beats Mervyn King declaring "recession is here", into second place in the BBC morning bulletins.
Go back to your constituencies and prepare for a May 09 election, the BBC (or Pravda as it is known in government circles) has been put on a war footing.
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This story is being stirred up by the media to be something much bigger than it really is. For goodness sake - we are entering a recession due to 10 years of incompetent labour rule and all the BBC and other media channels can blurt on about is the private discussions between Osborne, the Oligarch and Rothschild when they were on holiday this summer. We have already learnt that no donation was wished for or received by the Conservative party so I think the media should leave it at that. I have to say all this back stabbing, dodgy dealings and secret media briefing smacks of Mandelson - and thus surely Brown's judgement should be called into question for calling him back to the Cabinet. The fact is the real story of the moment is Brown's economic mismanagement and the fact we are heading into a recession and I think the media should be concentrating on this.
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I notice that the focus of this story has subtly changed since it broke. It was first about the sleazy tories taking money from rich and powerful foreigners. When it became clear that there was not a shred of evidence that that had happened, the focus seemed to shift to whether it says anything about Osbourne's judgement in spending time on a plush yacht.
This reminds me a bit of the war in Iraq. We were first told it was about WMDs. When it became completely clear that the WMDs were just a myth, we were told it was a good thing anyway because Saddam was a Bad Man and it was good to get rid of him.
In the same way that Blair and Bush, for whatever reason, decided it would be fun to bomb Iraq back to the stone age and then groped around for justifications, it seems that the BBC have decided that this is somehow a real news story and are now groping around for reasons to keep running it.
I'm no friend of the tories and would quite happily believe that they would not only sell their own grandmothers but also fiddle the VAT on the transaction if it suited their purposes, but as far as I can see there is no evidence whatsoever of any wrongdoing here, apart from some unsubstantiated rumours that have Mandelson's fingerprints all over them.
I think the BBC have slipped below their usual high standards in giving this story as much prominence as they have. Either show us some evidence or go back to reporting real news.
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It really really really is time to drop this story, Nick, and return to reporting about the important issues in British politics.
I think we have learned a thing or two about Nat Rothschild, Peter Mandelson, George Osbourne, and how they spend their holidays. No doubt voters will draw some conclusions at the next election.
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Osborne has obviously broken some code of conduct within his circle which has ticked off Rothschild but in reality nothing has happened, it is a non story.
The press just love a bit of Tory bashing after months of Brown bashing.
If the press could be inclined I am sure there are just as many awkward questions to be asked about Peter Mandleson's presence.
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Nick, why don't you mention the roles of Mandelson and Blair in all this? Why persist with a non-story about a non-donation? Why is the BBC so biased? Answers on a postcard please!
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Nick - you say that it is common ground that the possibility of a donation was "considered by the Tories and later rejected".
Is there in fact any evidence for a decision to reject? I think I have seen a report (in that well known Labour rag the Telegraph?) that there is no record of the 'decision'.
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Am I the only one finding this whole episode curiously timed, when both Mandelson and Campbell seem to be helping El Gordo, and the government has other troubles, up pops a mucky little story about the tories trying to get a donation.
The whole story, as it unwinds, is unedifying, to say the least, and where's Mandelson? He seemed to be present at some of the meetings, if not fully briefed afterwards.
Does El Gordo approve of all this? After all, this is the man who denied any knowledge of the labour party funding scandal, and they're still short of money. Is any dirt you can shovel at an opponent good?
Where is El Gordo? What part of the world is he actually saving today? I'm personally still much poorer than I was, and can't afford to retire because the value of my investments in a pension fund are down, yet again.
Is he in hiding, hoping nobody notices that we are in recession, and we can't expect to recover before the next election is due, and if he keeps quite the scots might not vote labour out in Glenrothes?
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Hi Nick,
In your previous post you accept that as EU trade minister Peter Mandleson should not have accepted the hospitality of Oleg Deripraska. There was a clear conflict of interest and you accept that if Mandleson had been a minister of the crown at the time, then he would have had to resign (again!). Just a few questions on this point...
1) Why do you believe that is it acceptable for our EU Trade Commissioner to display lower ethical standards of behaviour than a minister of the crown? Shouldn’t we as citizens expect the same standard and more to the point, shouldn’t you as a journalist hold them to the same standard? After all, both our representatives of the people.
2) Since you accept that Mandleson’s behaviour as an EU Trade Minister fell well-below the standards required of a minister; shouldn’t you have made this point on TV as well as on your blog? Why the difference of emphasis here, compared to your TV and press interviews?
3) On the Today program you admitted that the BBC resisted running with the original ‘Mandelson’ story – why?
4) Why hasn’t your colleague Robert Preston acknowledged his conflict of interest in this story – e.g. wasn’t Osborne leading calls for an investigation into Preston’s Bank Bailout leak stories? Strangely for an Economic Editor he has been all over the TV news reporting about this ‘political’ story. Surely the viewer has a right to know about Preston’s potential conflict of interest. Or should we only hold politicians to the highest ethical standards and not your fellow BBC journalists?
5) James Goodwin has not confirmed Nat Rothschild’s entire original allegation. Remember Mr Rothschild’s letter claims Osborne solicited a donation. Whereas Goodwin claims that Osborne was only interested in a donation. As I’m sure you are aware, legally this is not the same thing. Moreover, according to Guido Fawkes this is not the first time that Rothschild has changed his story. He claims that there are three separate incarnations of the Times letter. Why haven’t you commented on this claim? I for one would like to know if Mr. Rothschild or the Times newspaper deny the claim – as it could have some bearing on who we the license payer and voter believe in this he said, she said, story.
As you can probably tell – I along with quite a few other licence fee payers (if the comments on your blog are to be believed) think that the BBC’s coverage of these two inter-related stories i.e. Mandelson & Osborne, leaves a lot to be desired. You either cover both or none and if you cover both, then you apply equal air-time to both. The fact that you haven’t is quite frankly disgraceful.
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I'm bored with Osborne. Can you get back to reporting opinion polls which I note you've become suddenly more interested in. There's an Ipsos Mori Poll out today showing the Tory lead collapsing to a mere 15% with them on 45% and Labour on 30%. Can you not cover that under the headline Brown bounce continues as Tories meltdown... or something like that.
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"the possibility of a donation by LDV - a firm controlled by Oleg Deripraska - was considered by the Tories and later rejected."
Good grief!
Yesterday I considered giving my colleague a good hard slap because he is unbelievebly annoying - This idea was later rejected.
So what am I then, guilty or not guilty of GBH.
This is not news! And is the sort of reporting that should be consigned to the Daily Sport (which er... apparently exists).
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#5
Bit edgy this morning aren't we, Alistair?
Is it becasue the story hasn't really taken off?
Why on earth would Geroge Osborne take the Times to court for something that hasn't happened?
What a waste of money; that's what newlabour do best not the tories. They shower something with cash and then strap on the afterburners.
Call an election.
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U-Turn if you want to...
A phrase that seems apt right now.
Is this an attempt at objective reporting, or just craven back scuttling after yesterdays embarrassing display?
Enquiring minds need to know.
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Well if the BBC has anything to do with it then it has only just begun. I love that we have to pay for this strictly impartial broadcasting.
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I am fed up with the BBC and their political and current affair editors who seem to live in a "Westminster bubble" and believe the chatter that goes on in the bubble is actually of any interest of us ordinary people who couldn't care less who stays on whose big boat when they are on holiday.This whole story is nothing more than tittle tattle and should not be in the news schedule at all ,never mind lead it.
If the BBC editors don't buck up their ideas and stop playing their games and start reporting neutrally then their reputation as an even handed reporting organisation will be flushed down the toilet for ever.The place incidently is where the BBC reporting is rapidly approaching.
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This is what Nick said on yesterday's Today programme:
"The Tory party have been encouraging Tory newspapers and others, including the BBC – and we have resisted it so far – to make a lot of Peter Mandelson’s stay on a Russian billionaire’s yacht."
So the BBC make a big fuss about allegations of corruption involving a Russian oligarch when they involve the Conservative party, but will not make any kind of fuss about similar allegations involving the same Russian oligarch when they involve the Labour government!
And Nick actually boasted about this!
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I haven't been on the blog for a few days. I come back today and what do I see? Hundreds of comments on a non-story.
Come on Nick and the rest of you, we're better than this surely!
If this qualifies as Tory sleaze then in order not to be labelled sleazy the Tories are going to have to give every penny they own to charity and endulge in self-flagellation before each session of PMQs.
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This is a storm in a teacup and looks like a typical Mandelson effort to manipulate the media, especially the BBC. Interesting that the PR person representing Rothschild is, apparently, a great friend of Mandelson. Mandelson, through his past acts and his lifting of tariffs following his meeting with the Russian, is thoroughly discredited and should be investigated regarding the tariff question. Perhaps we can then have some balance.
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What's all the fuss about.
We all know that politicians are dodgy characters. And Mandy has a track record.
Likewise billionaires didn't get where they are by being nice people - Warren Buffett may be an exception. They are on the whole hard and take no prisoners to get what they want.
Hedge fund managers, NR included, have an aura of invincibility about them. They consider themselves infallible.
And political commentators revel in it thinking themselves part of the team when all that normally happens is that they are used by the ultra-egos.
So what we have here is a group of ultra-egos behaving as children.
What's new?
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11:
If you don't have anything sensible to add to the discussion I suggest you keep your unsubstantiated thoughts to yourself! To suggest that The Russian billionaire decided not to donate money to The Conservative Party because George Osborn had nothing to give him in return is not only libellous but bordering on the downright stupid! Such a deal would have wrecked The Shadow Chancellor's career if it ever came out. No money was passed and no deal was made, end of story. If his judgement is brought into question and his character assassinated beyond repair then he will undoubtedly step down and a more dangerous No. 2 will be put into place.
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amazing in this meritocratic society that we should seek to destroy the nascent career of the son of a humble painter and decorator, a man who has thus far knotted his own bow tie and successfully run several baths and who will use his vast financial experience gained from the many and various offices of his esteemed brokers, messrs wm. hill, ladbrokes et al to lead this once great country out of the economic disaster its currently mired in. lucky for him he has pals of a similar wealth of experience to help him through this, his darkest hour, it must be of huge reassurance that dave cameron's years of invaluable pr for one of the globe's leading media corporations can counter this filthy communist spin that the BBc continues to peddle.
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Let's try again - was my post referred to the moderators because it mentioned PM and TB or because it referred to BBC bias?
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Try again with initials instead of names - let's see if this is referred:
Nick, why don't you mention the roles of PM and TB in all this? Why persist with a non-story about a non-donation? Why is the BBC so biased? Answers on a postcard please!
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Largest government debt since records began and this is *before* we enter the recession.
Who cares who George spoke to on holiday?
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"A few facts make this story curious:
A donation from LDV wouldn't have been illegal."
I'm getting a bit confused now. Are we now supposed to be outraged because a donation was discussed which *wouldn't* have been illegal?
'Small legal donation offer scandal', perhaps?
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Nice to see that Mandelson's mastery of the media is still on top form. He spends a fortnight living in aboard a Russian Millionaire's Pleasure Yacht and yet somehow the story ends up being about a Tory donation that never happened...
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The question today is whether Rothschild considers the duel to be over or to have only just begun
Very intruiging, why is a Rothschild washing dirty linen in public? This isn't their style. Nor is an interest in politics. They don't really care about politics, it's common and unworthy of their attention.They have control of the currency, politicians come and go and invariably end up dancing to their tune.
So why is he doing this? Is there something to hide? Rothschild is advisor to Deripaska, Mandelson stays(not visits) on his yacht. GO leaks some tittle tattle about GB, but as a by product it becomes clear an EU Trade Commissioner is in a compromising situation. This becomes hugely significant when PM is brought back into cabinet as Business Secretary. Did GB know this already? Knowing he is doomed does he decide to thoroughly humiliate and destroy his arch nemesis by making him resign a 3rd time
Come on Nick, do some digging and find out the real story for us
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Speaking to friends this morning over a working breakfast, the general view is that this is an internal conservative party plot, and the real target is Cameron. The feeling is that there is discontent over Cameron and Osborne's failure to capitalise on the banking crisis, and to further damage George Brown. Osborne is perceived as lacking real seriousness, and its time for Cameron to get a grip on his shadow cabinet, and its policies. Cameron has to back Osborne for now, but really Osborne's card has been well and truly marked. If this seems too conspiratorial, someone pointed out to me that if it was merely a question of defending Mandelson, people on the yacht could have confirmed that he had behaved perfectly properly. (Although whether any of them should have been there in the first place is another matter.) Anyway, the bloggers that are blaming the BBC for this story clearly haven't looked at who is keeping it going.
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I see from PMQ's that El Gordo thinks it is very easy for the UK to borrow its way through the current economic troubles.
Is this because he thinks the banks he now owns will lend him the money?
Just where does this poor deluded fool think he's going to borrow from? Nobody else has got any money!!!!!
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Will people please stop asking for this story to be dropped. The longer this runs the more chance we will have of finding out what Mandelson/Rothschild have to hide. Somewhere in this country a reporter might wake up, think this doesn't look right and do some investigating. If we go back to opinion polls because we're bored with this then the Mandelson/Deripaska story will also be forgotten and the Prince will have got away with it again
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Oh Nick,
Here you go again. If you have not noticed no one cares and the whole story is a pile of rubbish. You do seem to have a habit of trying to drag bllod out of a stone when it best suits the Labour Party. Shame on you.
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23# RobinJD wrote:
#5
Bit edgy this morning aren't we, Alistair?
Is it becasue the story hasn't really taken off?
Why on earth would Geroge Osborne take the Times to court for something that hasn't happened?
What a waste of money; that's what newlabour do best not the tories. They shower something with cash and then strap on the afterburners.
Call an election.
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Oh, dear. So far from being Alastair Campbell that I am not even a Labour Party member and in fact voted Liberal in the last election.
If George Osborne is not lying, he would take the Times to court for printing, as he claims, lies about him.
I suspect Labour will call the election when the Tory lead has completely disappeared under a cloud of irrelevance and sleaze.
Anyone who really understood British political and economic history would know that the really big spending party is the Tories, when in power they do it just before elections. Can't do that this time.
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Can anyone seriously imaging senior Tories (even Eton-educated ones) doing dodgy deals while Mandelson was lurking about?
The key question about this media-storm is: Cui bono?.
I.e. - who benefits from all this 'sound and fury signifying nothing'?
What bad news is being 'buried'?
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My moderated posts ask the question below - I have replaced the names of prominent Labour politicians with "X" and "Y" to see if it then passes moderation. Very strange:
"Nick, why don't you mention the roles of X and Y in all this? Why persist with a non-story about a non-donation?"
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So whom are we to believe about a recession?
Our own experiences in real life, the word of the governor of the bank of England, who gets lots of high level, top quality breifings on the subject, or a low level government minister, who tells us tha some unnamed forecasts aren't as pessimistic as the Governors?
And what does El Gordo think he's doing, making cheap jibes in PMQs? He got us into this state, and expects everybody else to be non-critical and helpful, so he can take all the credit.
Time's running out, and he knows it.
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All this non-story shows is that Alistair Campbell is back. No donation, no wrong doing - but throw enough mud and it sticks for some of the people, some of the time. At worst next time there is a true Labour scandal they can say "The Tories are just as bad", at best something will come out they don't know about. Called knocking your opponent off balance. Shame on you BBC for being taken in by it - or are you complicit in trying to build the bigger story?
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Nick
How about reporting the number of companies that brought stands at the Labour party conference then invited minister to speak on issues of interest to the companies. Private Eye was full of information a couple of issues ago, seemed like a conflict of interest to me. So how much did they pay and were any of them foreign owned?
What we really need is the political equivalent of justgiving.com and put a ban on any giving over £1000 a year. That would require Parties to actually get involved with those who they want to vote for them.
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Nick,
Are you going to report another poll showing a 15% lead for the Conservatives?
You certainly went into a lot of detail when it was reported at 'only' 9%.
No wonder Labour are fighting dirty - they stare electoral oblivion in the face.
Is it a bird? Is it a plane?
Oh, it's a dead cat bounce.
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I have to confess that I have found the storylines being pursued by the media for both Peter Mandleson and George Osborne as Westminster tittle tattle of little interest to the ordinary man on the street. However, one thing to emerge from it that I think is worrying for the Tory party leadership is the photograph/ side story of George Osborne's membership of the Bullingdon Club-that one photo speaks a thousand words-as a middle class working professional, I fouund the look in his face of upper class toff/ arrogance very disturbing and I say that as a strong Tory voter! It is an image that I won't forget and will have a long lasting effect on my opinion of Mr Osborne.
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Further to my 51 post you could start here:
http://www.labour.org.uk/commercial_sponsorship_fringe_conferences_2008
Seems like a money earner to me.
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Go back to your constituencies and prepare for a May 09 election, the BBC (or Pravda as it is known in government circles) has been put on a war footing.
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ZZZZ. Right wing trolls complaining about BBC bias, same old same old.
Rightwing dictionary definition of bias
"To not support my views, to report objectively, to present the facts."
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How very convenient. Hype up a non-story and wait for the jackals to fall all over it. This will be the only thing Labour ministers talk about on Question Time tomorrow in a finger pointing exercise that is orchestrated (oh yes !) to deflect people from talking about the shocking state that this country is in after 11 years of Labour control.
Do they really believe that we are stupid enough to fall for this? How long has it been since the newly ennobled minister returned and Campbell took the reins once more?
This stinks !!
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Can we all PLEASE petition France to re-legalise duelling? I'll even buy Rothschilds ammunition for him and give him a few shooting lessons if need be. If he can then have a strop with Alistair Darling I'll be a happy man.
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If the worst that the BBC can come up with against Osborne is that he refused a donation which wouldn't have been illegal even if it had been accepted, then to me that speaks volumes about what the BBC's agenda is and how little real ammunition the BBC can level at the tories.
Labour is mired in sleaze about cash for honours, and their business minister got fired twice (or was it 3 times? I've lost count) for sleaze, yet the BBC is going on about a donation which never even happened by someone who's not even in government.
This is such a non-story that I think most people are just looking at the BBC with total wonder as to why they think that something which never even happened is so important.
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Nick,
Outside the Westminster village does anybody care that two old school friends have fallen out!!
What the general public want to know is how the government is going to get us out of the Financial mess they have got us into- and if they can not then we the public should vote them out.
Why is Gordon not being challenged on his changes to the Bank of England/FSA, pensions and the fact that nobody in the cabinet will seem to admit we are in recession!
There is real news out there why not report it!! Perhaps you need to get out of London a bit more and find out what the rest of country are thinking.
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Nick, a far bigger story than Osborne being wounded by association with this Russian, is the story that the BBC political editor is wounded by allegations of bias. Of course you won't report on this, but your credibility and that of the BBC is very much on the line at the moment. For the first time in my life, I am starting to resent paying a license fee.
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For goodness sake BBC/Nick
Mervyn King has announced that we are going to be in recession - but the depth is uncertain. Yet you continue to plug this non-story of donations that were never made/taken.
Tell the ennobled minister to get back in his box so that you can get on reporting the real issues - that the UK is sadly sinking into the mire with little prospect of any good news in the short term
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1. I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Nothing illegal has been done.
2. As there is a big fuss, it must be about something else.
Is this Deripaska playing off UK politicians for personal gain? Or is it UK politicians beating each other up to get Deripaska's money?
Or is the messenger who highlighted Mandy's cosy relations with Deripaska currently being shot?
And if so, why?
Shouldn't Mandelson be out on his arse ALREADY if the allegationsof him displaying corrupt behaviour for the umpteenth time stack up?
The person whose judgement is lacking is GORDON BROWN.
I'd be really interested to see Mandelson's response to being asked to put up his entire net worth as collateral against the charge that Deripaska bought £50m in concessions from him at the EU.
I'd like it to be video'd. And I'd like him wired up to detect the effect on his emotional wiring.........
There are two charges on the table currently. And the one against Mandelson is infinitely more serious than the one against Osborne.
A little perspective and judgement, if you please......
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This is developing into a blindfold version of pin the tail on the donkey.
First he solicited, then he didn't, then he was just there, now it's a judgement call. Do make your minds up.
Tomorrow this will disappear as the UK descend into recession.
Just how bad will it be? The grim warnings from the governor of the bank of England seem to imply that tomorrow's number will be a disaster. The enginnering sector, housing sector and banking sector are all in recession already.
No doubt crash Gordon will appear on the TV to urge calm just like his crapulous 'this is containable' statements when house prices fell for the first time a year ago. Now we're heading for 35 percent plus fall.
Still, at least there will be no more boom and bust; let's be reasssured about that. Crash Gordon has reassured us at PMQs that this is a global thing and not to worry about it. Phew. What a relief. I'll take out some more debt then and buy a new 4x4.
Can Gordon Brown ever expect us to take him seriously again? He can't mention recession, he can't mention boom and bust, he sends in hit men to score an own goal on Osborne as Lord Mandy is equally up to the neck in it... and he has the nerve to question the judgement of others.
Gordon Brown has the worst judgment of any politician I've ever seen; the 10p tax, the election that never was; the 42 day detention; bad judgment call after bad judgment call and they still keep on coming with hislatest reshuffle.
Call an election.
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Just watched PMQs - Gordon was on his usual form; completely avoiding answering every question put to him and regurgitating the usual tractor production figures.
He even had a pop at the lib-dems about their plan to cut public spending by 20bn (in answer to a question about help with fuel bills). Funny that he doesn't want to talk about the largest government debt on record - perhap his obsession with spending (sorry, "investing") money taxpayer's money is related?
He spent us into this situation and now he thinks he can spend us out of it.
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My cost of living is spiralling.
My job security is plummeting.
My utility bills are going through the roof.
My car costs a fortune to fill.
My pension was in deficit and is now under threat of collapse.
My taxes are going to increase.
My age of retirement is going to increase.
I don't care about a £50K donation or this "gentlemen's duel".
I want this self serving government replaced with one that knows what it is doing.
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Brown is an idiot for demanding an inquiry into Osborne (for what?). Any inquiry would be duty bound to examine the role of the former EU trade commissioner (now Business Secretary) in all this.
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There is only one reason that this is even deemed to be news rather than gossip.
Tories are likely to win the next election
and certain Political commentators are very nervous about their future employment prospects because of a certain bias.
It looks like its going to be a very dirty and long election campaign fought between the Tory party and the BBC oops NuLabore
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It's the economy, stupid.
That's what the smoke screen of what Osbourne did or didn't do with regard to seeking a donation.
While the smoke's in the air, and all the political commentators keep puffing, as young Nick here is doing, then the attention off the R word, and the deteriorating economy.
El Gordo desperately wants cross party support, but doesn't hesitate to stick a boot in with a cheap jibe whenever he can.
Nick, even you must see that this rreally is a non-story since all the usual suspects of Labour supporters aren't chiming in.
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I am a bit confused here, so this big story about Tory sleaze and illegal donations is actually Tories investigating the prospect of a donation from a legal source and then deciding against it?
It seems a bit of a non-story in the current financial climate!
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The BBC only became interested in this story after the letter in the Times. Why is that?
Robert Peston also got involved. Why is that?
There is a big difference between an EU Commissioner STAYING on Oleg Deripraska' private yacht and a Shadow Chancellor VISITING.
If the BBC followed the money from the start and not the tittle-tattle it may have actually had something to report.
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#20 ngodinhdiem
Ditto
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To my mind, the over-arching theme here is the sheer arrogance displayed by the political class as represented in this farrago by Mandelson and Osborne.
Operating at their rarified political level, them seem to consider themselves far, far above the workaday concerns of the proles.
So, they holiday with whosoever they wish and if 'something' comes up such an opportunity to oil some wheels, then they consider it fair game.
In this case, Osborne seems to have broken an unwritten protocol ('private' parties must remain precisely that) and therefore will pay a heavy price amongst his peer group.
We, the people, just gaze through the window at these politicians and the oligarchs and cannot see any difference at all.
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#46
i understand that newlabour supporters have no intention of even pretending to understand economic history because it would mean accepting:
The botched union reforms of Barbara Castle's in place of strife which lead to ten years of striking culminating in the winterof discontent.
Harold Wilson's devaluation and 'pound on your pocket' gaffe
Shirley Williams disgraceful admission that the comprehensive system had been a failure all along.
Denis Healey's IMF moment.
Michael Foot at The Cenotaph in a donkey jacket.
Neil Kinnock "we're allright" er..no you're not.
Tony Blair's Iraq lies.
Weapons of Mass Delusion.
Non reform of public services.
Showering of cash with no improvements in public sector productivity.
Trashing the private pension system
The end of boom and bust......errr
Call an election.
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Nick,
Campbell must be getting desparate. There's an entertainment story on the site linking the PM's wife with Keanu Reeves and a canadian film about a third grade rock band from the eighties.
It's a tenuous link, since her brother has directed the film, but is it any not bad news is good news, specially if it deflects questions about the economy?
Does the son of the manse really, really, really want to be associated with silly little stories?
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Excellent; more moderation to stop people from putting the other side of the story across.
So it's ok for the BBC to imply sleaze against the tories where there isn't any, but it's not ok for the public to respond in kind about labour sleaze which has already been proven?
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As the dear old Mitford's father would say, "A brawl between a sewer and a swine"!
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Tebbits comment that if you are in the company of dogs you get fleas is appropriate. What was Mandelson doing on the yacht, seems very inappropriate for an EU trade commissioner. Why did Osborne think it was a good idea to go anywhere near the yacht. And if you were looking for dough why 50K, seems a low figure. How much was it Blair got from F1. If Rothschild has any sense he'll pack up and go away, he has already changed his letter, he looks flakey, keep it up and he will look more stupid whether he is right or not.
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If Mandy is about I would not tell anyone what I would be getting my wife for christmas incase he turned into spin.
No one would ever ask for any kind of donation while boomerang Mandleson was near.
This is just Brown and Labour looking at a way of getting at Cameron because the public have had enough of this Government treating us this way.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
32. sicilian29 wrote:
11:
If you don't have anything sensible to add to the discussion I suggest you keep your unsubstantiated thoughts to yourself!
I say, old boy, that's a bit harsh. Firstly this forum is open to all to express their views, and why shouldn't this blogger have the same right? If you don't agree with an opinion point out where you differ, there's no need to mock, it's unkind. With all these politicians out to rook us, we poor citizens shoudl stick together.
Secondly, it's rather hard to write anything sensible about a load of ghastly opportunists!
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Nick
You seem to be getting some perspective on this at last.
A good story regarding Osbourne - he avoided being sucked into a den of corruption. And now just an ex-friend suggesting that they may 'tell tails out of school'.
What is rather more significant is that these dubious people from whom he has protected himself include a current Governemnt minister - Mandleson.
It is Mandleson's crowd that are being spoken of in terms of 'getting in the gutter with', 'laying down with dogs' etc...
Mandleson has been part of this circuit for a considerable time and remains so. Isn't this a story that actually does deserve to be covered?
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Shame on you Nick. I was under the misapprehension that the BBC was a public service broadcaster. I hope that the Tories remember your balanced and unbiased coverage when they win the election. You and Peston are extremely short-sighted.
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El Gordo wants us to send for Yates of the yard does he?
I think we should be told exactly what part Mandelson played in all this, since he was indisputably in the area whilst all this was going on?
If it is possible that there was money around, why wasn't he trying to get some for himself?
Why only 50k? It seems such a trivial amount given the wealth this bloke is supposed to have?
And anyway, how do we know this isn't a double sting, and Putin isn't behind it, trying to lure El Gordo in to a certain point, and then slam the treap on him, to get Putin his revenge for the Litvinenko kefuffle?
Let's have the drains up, and have an elcetion while we're at it? What's that? The tories are still in the lead?
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33. , williewandsworth wrote:
amazing in this meritocratic society that we should seek to destroy the nascent career of the son of a humble painter and decorator, a man who has thus far knotted his own bow tie and successfully run several baths
What, did he run a chain of Turkish Baths too!
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Jonathan_cook #66
Dead right, 50k is nothing to what we have to put up with and this out of date Government. No right minded tory would have only asked for 50k.
How dare Brown ask for an inquiry after the last 11 years of Labour. What with wars and David Kelly, cash for honours, F1 advertising etc. Nothing ever comes out in the day of light and he wants to have an inquiry over something boomerang Mandleson has said.
Come on Gordon get a grip.
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Oh bother, the moderation queue is so long I can't remember whether I've mentioned the economy.
Are our wonderful bank investments paying off yet?
Is the stock market going back up?
Will I still have a job next month?
If I buy a house, will it lose it's value, making me poorer?
Is the future looking good under El Gordo and Darling's masterful mismanagement of the economy?
Oh, and what's the new dictionary definition of boom and bust please?
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#55
OED definition of bias is probably a little more reliable:
"inclination or prejudice in favour of a particular person, thing, or viewpoint"
To that extent, you are as likely to be as guilty of bias as I am (towards the SNP as it happens). However, the BBC has a statutory duty to be above these things and, not for the first time, has shown itself to be clearly biased towards the party of government.
It, and its apologists, of which you are clearly one, should be ashamed of themselves.
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Can anyone tell me if the Tory party received a donation from Chelsea FC would that be OK?
Or if any party received a donation from any football team would that be OK?
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Nick...Today on "The Daily Politics" you actually used the expression 'toff' in relation to George Osbourne.Also,although you probably don't realise it,you regularly speak about "Gordon Brown" whilst referring to the Opposition Leader as "Cameron".
Isn't it time you simply came out and admitted your complete support for Labour and its Spin machine.
Whilst on the Daily Politics subject,do you have any explanation for Yvette Coopers' reprehensible performance in refusing to answer Andrew Neils' questions about the culpability of this Government in relation to its promotion of unsustainable personal debt?
I guess it's a stupid questuion....
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All goes to show that politicians do not have the interests of the public in mind but now serve big business.
Less private involvement in government and public services would be welcome. They're only interested in making money, not providing a quality service.
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Just caught a glimpse on T.V. of Frank Field lambasting George Osborne for his perceived indiscretion and being backed up by The P.M. Let them conduct their silly little investigation and include a little look into the actions of the supposedly innocent Mandy and then see if it deflects the public's atttention away from the real issue of the day, the dreadful state of the economy.
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Nick, Nick,
I saw a conservative MP putting up an umbrella the other day when it was raining... the nerve of the man - using an umbrella whilst other people were getting wet!!
I expect, as a BBC licence payer, that a full expose is done on these shameful people! Perhaps you can team up with Peston and get to the bottom of this scandalous story - the public have a right to know!!
(Make sure that you focus on the conservative MPs though - we all know that Labour MPs NEVER use umbrellas & NEVER do anything wrong!)
....a daft suggestion for a man of your journalistic "tallents"? Yes, perhaps... but it's about the level of pathetic journalism that sadly the BBC is becoming known for these days.
Tell me, how much of our TV tax goes to paying your salary?
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Hello again Nick.
Quite apart from the fact that one of your colleagues has planted a fairly vacuous analysis of this major news story, and is placing a lot of emphasis on the fact that the opposition chancellor of the exchequer is a very important position (must remember that when El Gordo is looking for another job, soon I hope), I feel we must keep a persepctive, and get back to the real story.
The pound is now down to $1.62 and this, of course, is going to cause the cost of fuel high, since even if the dollar price drops it costs more in pounds.
Now, how does this work IF a) this crisis is truly global, then relativity gets suspended or b) we are much better placed than other countries to weather the financial crisis, as we are repetitively told.
The evidence tells us they're wrong. I won't call them mendacious.
I'd like to hear government minister's telling us how it is, and not how they'd like us to believe it to be.
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I've just come back from holiday on my mate's yacht and sucessfully getting away from all the grim news of late and now I can't believe this story as it is patently such utter nonsense! If I didn't know better I would think Mandy was back in government!
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Can I suggest that anyone who's sick of the blatant bias shown by the BBC with their insistence to run with this pathetic story, make their feelings known by following the BBC complaints procedure as can be found here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/
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I am informed that Osbornes behaviour if proven is a criminal offence. As a law abiding citizen I expect the police to investigate. If a tape of the discussions is available, it will clear up the matter
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Here Nick,
I've got a question for El Gordo and his bunch of economic pygmies.
If this is not a time for novices, and this is an unprecedented world crisi/recession/credit crunch, and what we really need are people who've had experience of this, then why doesn't he call in Norman lamont to help?
He's the man with experience here. If he doesn't want to be bi-partisan, and who could blame him, because he'll probably be upstaged then he could always ask for help from Lord Healey the last Labour chancellor who had to get help from the IMF.......
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Surprise, surprise.
JD et al have no answers.
1)
If Gideon and Feldman were replaced by Blair and Levy in this story, you'd be bemoaning a corrupt government and saying that the fact NR is not going after the story harder than he is demonstrates his left-wing bias.
Don't pretend you wouldn't.
You have no credibility with your one-sided criticisms.
2)
The Mail, Telegraph, Sky News, indeed every other part of the media is reporting on this.
Do they all have this left-wing bias you keep telling us about and are controlled by Campbell et al like puppets on a string?
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Nick Robinson recently asserted that he did not report 'Lord' Mandelson's presence with the Russian Oligarch. As soon as a seniorTory is implicated, the (im)partial BBC becomes interested!
It is interesting that a senior Tory not taking donations is regarded as more newsworthy than that 'regular kinda guy' taking donations in his 'whiter than white' government.
And where is our gloriously inept ex chancellor in all of this? Taking the mote out of another's eye whilst ignoring the beam in his own?
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Most amusing - Brown, first as Chancellor, then as PM resides over a banking collapse where billions of pounds of UK taxpayers money is used to prop it up.
The criticism of him was barely audible. In fact some went as far as praising his "solution". Others joked about how he was seemingly enjoying it.
Then a Tory (and I am most certainly NOT a supporter of them) is quizzed about £50,000 and the Nick Robinson and the rest can do little else but witter on.
Where is the questioning of Mandleson? Wasn't he on the yacht? Where is the questioning of the fact he is still being paid a hefty sum despite leacing his EU post?
Where is the questioning of why both of them were on a Russian billionaire's yacht?
Mr. Robinson, perhaps you'd like to answer these?
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Looking through the posts on this blog, it seems to me that nobody is buying this load of old tosh. Yippee.
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And JD - can you truthfully say the following:
"If Blair/Levy were caught in exactly the same situation as Gideon/Feldman were, I would suggest that the BBC did not report it, as it would still be a non-story and irrelevant"
Or would you instead say:
"If Blair/Levy were caught in exactly the same situation as Gideon/Feldman were, the BBC should press hard to force these corrupt people to resign".
Answers?
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I don't want Gideon to resign. He is the perfect useless foil to Cameron's insipid leadership. GB would be in more trouble if someone like Hague took over. Whilst this pair of novices are in charge I'm sure he'll turn it around.
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Moderation is taking its toll. Is this deliberate?
Oh, watta mistaka to maka, of course it is.
Slow down and control the flow of information, always confuses the other side.
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#68
Grim_Northerner,
Yes - scared for their jobs under a Labour government, just like Telegraph journalists, Mail journalists, Sky news presenters and the entire media.
Cameron will see them all sacked.
Did Jim Henson make you?
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The story will die down while the press go away and dig a bit deeper to see what turns up. There may even be further selacious revelations in the Sundays. Either way expect every Labour and Lib Dem MP to nail the lack of judgement claim at Boy George's door from now until election day.
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Nice to see a club that's cronyism has no doubt helped many with privileged backgrounds ascend to power bite George in the backside.
I wonder what the motive for this feud is and where it originates from????
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"and certain Political commentators are very nervous about their future employment prospects because of a certain bias."
Are you claiming that if elected the Tories will exert editorial control over the press and who is employed?
People need to realise this story has been run across the whole media spectrum because there is a story here and not just the BBC in isolation.
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Nick,
I invite you to start reporting on actually important actually made descisions and actually carried though actions of this Government that have left us in the deepest economic hole for the last x-many decades.
Instead of going on about a story in which G Osbourne did NOT take any money from anyone with a vaguely Russian sounding name.
For heavens sake, on your own standard you would have to turn yourself in for the 'crime' of saying "I could murder so-and-so for whatever reason".
Osbourne did nothing wrong execpt get his head turned by the yacht of a billionaire. Few would not. Those who say they would have not are mostly lying or deluding themselves.
However
Brown by his actions in messing around with the regulatory system in 1997 and many other desisions since made a massive contribution to the state we are currently in, including;
- The worst banking crisis since before the first world war.
- The fastest downturn in the housing market ever recorded - and still on the down slope.
- The worst public finances for the last 60 years
- The Labour party actually HAVE taken dodgy donations from various sources, and a great deal more than £50K to boot.
There is a real story of gargantuan importance to us in the real world. PLEASE SPEND MY LICENCE FEE REPORTING IT instead of this fascile waste of air time.
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The real issue hiding behind this is why did Peter Mandelson, EC Commissioner, agree to stay the night on board a billionaire's gin palace when there was so obviously a potential conflict of interest?
The BBC seems keen to forget that Osborne has no power and that PMandelson did. It's all very well PMandleson saying he had to meet the rich guys as part of his job, but to accept hospitality like that? How reckless or unwise was that? The EC ought to investigate and the BBC ought to keep its eye on the real ball. Osborne is just a smoke screen.
BBC - 0
Mandelson - 3
Not up to your usual standard. This lack of strategic analysis is, sadly, part of the BBC's decline into spin directed news.
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#89 Maggy
On the other side of the coin, would any footie team take sponsorship from any of the parties?
ManU will need new sponsors because I don't know that AIG in its destitute state will be able to pay any more. Since they wear red shirts, they could be an obvious vehicle for the labour party, and, of course they win things. Can't you just see El Gordo with his face all over the front of their shirts, saying Vote for me?
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It occurs to me that, since this is a non-story, the mods have given themselves a tough job, trying to reject posts that stray off topic.
That leaves them with personal abuse and swearing.
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97. At 1:52pm on 22 Oct 2008, braveSouter wrote:
I am informed that Osbornes behaviour if proven is a criminal offence. As a law abiding citizen I expect the police to investigate. If a tape of the discussions is available, it will clear up the matter
You are misinformed. There is no suggestion of a criminal offence having been committed.
The Electoral Commission have today said there is nothing for them investigate, as soliciting a donation is not an offence, so nothing Osbourne has or is supposed to have done constitutes an offence, even if you take Mr Rothchilds version as the wholly true version.
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I am afraid after two days of this nonsense, it really does look like a put up job with the usual suspects of the Blair years fingerprints all over it! To cap it all Gordon Brown now says it is very serious and must be investigated, making him look utterly silly.
The buried (temporarily, luckily)bad news is Mervyn King's speech and the economic mess we are now firmly in. I would just like to know, Nick, why you applied a self denying ordinance to following up anything on Mandelson's stay on the yacht, (he was after all at that time the EU Commissioner, with no expectation of returning to Government, with direct responsibility for the tariffs afecting the Russian Oligarch's principal business) but can't contain yourself over the donation that never was?
We should be told of any connections you may have with the minister, the(mutual) PR adviser (formal or informal), to both Mandelson and Rothschild,Roland Rudd, and the young Rothschild, either now or in your days at Oxford and whether these in any way influenced the self denying ordinance or pursuit of the story. We can then create a gripping non story on how this fiasco got underway and again avoid the big stories!
Answers please for the curious.
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Naughty Osborne.
He's really had his hand smacked for telling on his mates.
So Gordon Brown wants yet another enquiry.
What happened to all the others?
Perhaps he's hoping Mandelson might be involved somewhere and it won't be third time lucky.
However he's now nicely installed in the House of Lords so not so easy to get rid of.
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Reading many of the comments here, I find an echo of some of the unpleasantness seen at the McCain/Palin rallies in the USA. It seems that we have our own paranoid right, convinced that government and the mdeia are in cahoots to do them down. rather like the Jehovah's Witnesses, all evidence contradicting their beliefs are somehow twisted to fit them instead.
Case in point: George Osborne has behaved rather foolishly and upset one of his friends. In the process, he has revealed something of the unsavoury way in which politics is funded and (more tellingly, I suspect) something of just how different the lifestyle of the Eton boys is from that of the rest of us. Not surprisingly, this is of news interest.
However, rather than the obvious explanation - Osborne makes mistake shock - we are expected to believe that this is all the work of Peter Mandelson and/or Alastair Campbell (who must surely be laughing like a drain) who have some secret means of controlling the BBC etc. It's all very strange.
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I notice that all the "BBC Bias" posts have dried up, maybe it is because ITV and all the dailies are also covering this "non story", they are reporting it as a big problem for the Tories, maybe they are all Biased too. lol
Maybe it's not such a non story after all !.
Well done the BBC.
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Never mind, Mr. Robinson, for those suggesting the current 'day-job' is proving a trial, I just saw a re-run of 'Have I Got News For You'.
You can just sit there and get paid... and make fun* of others! And it's still on Aunty's dime.
Cushy.
*Though you do have to speak. And be funny.
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I have been referred to the moderators with post #73.
I shall wear it as a badge of honour.
As a political independent, my posts are usually, but not always, quite critical of Labour, Tories and Lib-Dems.
Regarding the subject matter of this thread, my referred post was uncannily similar to Alice Miles piece in todays Times, which I have just read.
I shall watch with interest to see if the post resurfaces but if it does not, well, it died for a good cause - freedom for the English people from the stifling status quo imposed by these political parties (thanks Mick Hume).
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re: 96 Mister_E_Man
Good idea; I've just submitted one.
Not holding out much hope though.
The only complaint I could find which had a response regarding bias was for an interview where a handful of people thought that gordon brown had been treated too "agressively".
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Surely the lesson for all politicians is to avoid big flashy yachts and their big flashy owners. Stick to a towel on the beach and buy your own suncream. The kids will probably have a better time, in any case.
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A letter is printed in the Times alleging the shadow chancellor attempted to solicit an illegal donation, and somewhow this is down to BBC Bias or Labour? Who is kidding who?
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Ok I give up on trying to post about why Mandy was on the yacht.
Try this for size.
Latest poll Labour 30% 263seats
Conservative 45% 418
The dead cat bounce is over.
The rh gent for kirkaldy will keep his seat
82 of his former coleagues wont be so lucky
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I see Alistair aka Notting Hill Hammer has retreated to Climbdowning Street after PMQs to discuss tactics.
Tactics about why this attempt to contaminate George Osborne has floundered in a mire of claim and counterclaim about Lord Rumba's dealings with the same oligarch.
Tactics about how long the Hammer aka Alistair is prepared to come up with tactics for a party who can't even close the gap in the opinion polls afterthe biggest ever injection of public cash into the banking system and Crash Gordon's self annointed status as saviour of the world (from his excesses)
Self annointed slayer of boom and bust, self annointed slayer of child poverty, self annointed champion of enterprise, self annointed saviour of the global banking system.
It's a good job St Gordon hands out all the prizes, otherwise he wouldn't be getting any. Geddit?
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crowdedisland #17, 34, 35, 48
All posts are moderated, so it isn't necessary to post four times using all the different letters of the alphabet to describe Blair and Mandelson.
Maybe, like so many people on this blog, you are crying BBC bias! when there is no BBC bias, just a story you happen not like!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Hey, wonder what they do to SNITCHES at Eton! Bet they make them stand on a stool and say ...
"I pretend that I'm important but I am nothing. I go to this absurd joke of a school because my Daddy is rich. I'll probably do okay in my exams but that's only because Mummy and Daddy will kick up a stink if I don't. And when I leave here, I'll go to Oxford and fart around for another few years. After that, I'll probably be a Hedge Fund Manager or a Banker or maybe a Conservative Shadow Chancellor. Or an Entrepeneur even - I've heard that's a good wheeze if you can lay your hand on a few of Daddy's readies to get you started. Trouble is, whatever I do, I'll only be playing at it and everyone will know it. No matter how successful it looks like I am, everybody will know that it's all because of Daddy. My life will be a joke from start to finish and there's nothing I can do about it. Can I get down now, please?"
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Lord Tebitt today reminded George Osborne of the old adage "if you lie with dogs, you rise with fleas". This is advice that might be better directed at Lord Mandelson and Gordon Brown as they gaze at each other across the Cabinet table.
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The Council of Mortgage Lenders (CML) estimates that 45,000 properties will be repossessed this year
In September, 59,000 homes were sold
CML figures show that the number of actual repossessions across the UK rose to 18,900 in the first six months of the year - up 48% on the same period of 2007.
Using those numbers by the end of the year 20% of the market will be repo's.
That is before the recession truly hits home
So what odds 30-50% of the market being repo's by the middle of 2009.
This means house prices have a lot further to fall. Anyone with cash asset to provide a deposit should seriously think about a property portfolio as there will be bargains galore.
BTL will be the fuel that restarts the market and all the poor repo'd people will suffer paying increased rents.
I have cash sat around waiting for just this occurance.
Anyone repo'd out there need a house to rent?
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74# RobinJD wrote: (my comments in brackets)
#46
i understand that newlabour supporters have no intention of even pretending to understand economic history because it would mean accepting:
The botched union reforms of Barbara Castle's in place of strife which lead to ten years of striking culminating in the winterof discontent.
(both tory and labour governments botched union relations in this period, the tories were in power for half of it, a lot of the problem at the time was poor management of business)
Harold Wilson's devaluation and 'pound on your pocket' gaffe
(devaluation was necessary and was supposed to happen under Macmillan, he lacked the bottle, Wilson didn't)
Shirley Williams disgraceful admission that the comprehensive system had been a failure all along.
(Not seen that, but guess which education secretary approved the most comprehensive schools? Margaret Thatcher.)
Denis Healey's IMF moment.
(problem caused by Tory overspending to try to win the 74 election, Healey's actions actually set the stage for economic recovery in the 1980's)
Michael Foot at The Cenotaph in a donkey jacket.
(Rather Michael Foot than Michael Howard any day)
Neil Kinnock "we're allright" er..no you're not.
(One unfortuate moment from the man who ensured that Labour would rise again)
Tony Blair's Iraq lies.
(Ably supported by gung-ho Tories gagging for war, a war most labour supporters opposed)
Weapons of Mass Delusion.
(see above)
Non reform of public services.
(they have been reformed and improved)
Showering of cash with no improvements in public sector productivity.
(see above)
Trashing the private pension system
(wrong, this was mainly companies spending the money and getting caught out)
The end of boom and bust......errr
(fair cop, that one, I can quote you a couple of thousand pages of tory tripe to match it)
Call an election.
(I can't, private citizen, not a member of the labour party, they will do it when they are ready, and they will win)
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I wonder if you are right to describe Nat and George as "gentlemen" in the old sense of the word? (Rather than the meaning now imputed to the term by middle-class mums). Running off to the courts and the papers smacks of the sordid, underhand tactic of the bourgeois rather than the doings of men of honour.
Nat is too concerned with money and its begetting to ever qualify as one. And perhaps George outght to do the right thing and call the fellow out rather than stand about in a lounge suit uttering pointless denials as he has so far. After all the Duke of Wellington fought a duel over a perceived insult when he was a member of the cabinet.
The truth is that those styled "gentlemen" today (or "toffs" as you guys in the media and Labour spin doctors prefer) are a decidely inferior, ersatz version of the real thing which sadly died out long ago along with our greatness as a nation!
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Once upon a time there was a garden. And in that garden there were some hedges. Fruit grew on the hedges and a gardener who pruned the hedges and clipped them into weird topiary shapes, picked a lot of fruit. However nothing happened in the shadows so he asked a Shadow Minister he knew to help him to grow fruit in the shade. The Topiarist gardener also knew a Metal Magnate from far-off Muscovy who might give the Shadow Minister some gold for his efforts and was keen to introduce him.
The Metal Magnate from far-off Muscovy was entertaining the Prince of Darkness when the Topiarist brought the shadow minister to see him. The Prince of Darkness was charged with regulating the metal market in the kingdom but saw no conflict of interest in accepting the hospitality on offer. Dripping poison, he welcomed the Shadow Minister, who he knew would be in awe of the largesse on offer. The Prince of Darkness wanted the Shadow Minister to accept the gold because it would mean he was as bad as the Prince. He also knew that the Shadow Minister would be unhappy with this conflict of interest although both of them occupied the twilight.
But the Shadow Minister did not want the gold and three times refused the offer from the Metal Magnate. He saw that the climate was changing and that in the overcast conditions all the hedges would be in the shade. He told the Topiarist that he could not help him to grow fruit in the shade, and left the party.
But very soon the Prince of Darkness had taken over the business affairs of the garden. The Shadow Minister was concerned that the poison dripped by the Prince of Darkness would do the garden no good at all and proclaimed this to all the people who got their food from the garden.
Nevertheless the Prince of Darkness said to the Topiarist “I can help you grow fruit on your hedges, even in the shade for I am the Prince of Darkness. If I can’t help you, no-one can – but you must tell the people that the Shadow Minister asked for gold from the Metal Magnate from far-off Muscovy.”
Frustrated that his machinations with the Shadow Minister had borne no fruit, he accepted the offer from the Prince of Darkness. He told the people and everyone lived very unhappily ever after.
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Nick
Osbourne refused to play the 'conspiracy of secrecy' game with the corfu crowd, a conspiracy aparantly based on mutual blackmail.
All credit to Osbourne for not getting sucked in.
All credit to Osbourne that there was evidently nothing for him to be blackmailed over.
But what of the secrets that still bind the others together? Can any of them be ever be trusted again without full disclosure?
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Someone just pointed out that I wrote George Brown, not Gordon Brown in my previous comment. Those of you with long political memories will perhaps understand the mistake. However to the point. All the blathering about Osborne and Mandelson, and BBC bias, the truth is that Cameron could have attacked the Labour Government quite tellingly for its desperation in bringing Mandelson, a man forced to resign twice under Blair, back into the fold. Instead what they did was give prominence to gossip about Mandelson's conversations about Brown while on holiday, because presumably Osborne thought this was more important, or perhaps just funnier. Whatever the reason it has proved to be a serious misjudgement. All the ranters on this blog saying that Nick Robinson is biased, or trivial forget that it is his job to report stories that he thinks are important. He's right on this one. Osborne will not be in his present job in six months time, and he will largely be the architect of his own downfall.
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This from Corfu ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2008/10/the_corfu_story.html
... is relevant here too.
"Mr Feldman made clear that there are very strict rules on donations to political parties in the UK.
He explained that there are only two ways of giving a political donation. Firstly, if you appear as an individual on the UK electoral roll. Secondly, if the donation comes from a legitimate UK trading company. .... At the end of that conversation Mr Rothschild mentioned that Leyland Daf, a UK trading company owned by Mr Deripaska, was interested in making a donation to the party. Leyland Daf is well known to be a company recently purchased and owned by Mr Deripaska.
Mr Feldman said that he was not sure if such a donation was appropriate. He told Mr Rothschild that he would have to seek advice on the matter. Later that day it was decided after consultation with senior party officials that it would not be appropriate to accept such a donation." .... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/conservative/3235771/Statement-on-behalf-of-George-Osborne-and-Andrew-Feldman-issued-by-Conservative-Central-Office-at-5pm.html
What is inappropriate about such a donation? And was Mr Rothschild speculatively freelancing for Mr Deripaska without his knowledge thus to involve himself in the circle as a vital/superfluous cog*?
* Whether vital or superfluous really depends upon how much you know of the Established System/the Status Quo ... the Pseudocracy and its Hierarchy of Needs.
Indeed, that last question appears to be well enough answered here ...." Ironically, Mr Deripaska has told friends he never had any intention of giving any money to the Tories in the first place." .... if you can believe it to be true, that is. ...... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/conservative/3237054/George-Osborne-snared-in-money-trap.html
With so many minnows pretending to be/aspiring to be sharks, they can all just lose themselves and reveal that they are just agents of spin looking for Levers of Control rather than having any Handle on Power.
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This blog is in danger of becoming a joke.
The Tory boys have adopted a mantra that this is a non event and Nick should be ashamed of himself.
Well sorry guys it is an event, your shadow chancellor started it by telling tales from private dinners and he's just going to have to live with it. You can add repeated entries that it shouldn't be discussed and it will just help to snowball it.
It's no good saying if Mandleson was a minister at the time he would have been in trouble BECAUSE HE WASN'T. Using that logic every girlfriend I had before meeting my wife could be classed as an adulterous affair. He had a set of rules (some of which clearly need changing) and he kept to them.
Cameron’s honeymoon is over. In the run up to the next election he, and his team, will be scrutinised as closely as the Government. They won't win if they try to wriggle off the hook when so clearly in the wrong.
Mandleson has a bag full of tricks like this and he's better at using them Osborne. Every step they take towards the gutter by playing at gossip they will be seen as no better than Labour and when that happens you lose (ask Kinnock who also lost a sure thing).
Next time they want to attack labour they should try to do it on policy not smear and innuendo. God knows there's enough scope to do so.
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Is the BBC bereft of integrity and impartiality? Why haven’t you ensured that your reporters (in this case Nick Robinson) provide balanced reporting which provides equal weight to both Osbourne and Lord Mendelson. Both individuals are clearly linked by the same principle and the BBC must report on both individuals in equal measure. The BBC must also ensure that individual’s views do not interfere with their objective reporting and if unable to so should resign forthwith.
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Just to put a few things in perspective, here is a small taste of who and what some of the players in this little tiff represent
THE SUPERYACHT MARKET With the global fleet of super yachts over 24m currently estimated at 6,800 vessels, this represents an astonishing $59.4 billion worth of assets. The world’s super yacht builders have never been busier. In addition to this existing fleet there are 625 super yachts of 30 meters plus currently on order or under construction with an estimated value of US$19.8 billion. This means that over the next three years the value of the global fleet will increase by another 33%. The growth of new orders for super yachts is fueled by the increase in global wealth, which in turn has been driven by a strong global economy. The number of the world’s Ultra-High Net Worth Individuals (Ultra-HNWI) grew by 11.3% in 2006 there are now 94,970 individuals worldwide and the total wealth accumulation for this elite group also grew last year by 16.8%, to a staggering US$13.1 trillion. At the peak of this Ultra-HNWI group are the world’s billionaires. According to Forbes the Billionaire club has swelled to 1,000, while members’ net worth has risen by 35% on the last year. Their total worth is measured at $3.5 trillion. As fortunes have risen, so too have the number of countries where the wealthy come from. Russian oligarchs and Asian entrepreneurs now dominate the list of billionaires. China and Russia are among the top 10 countries with the fastest-growing wealthy populations and Russia recently added 19 newcomers to the Forbes list.
And we wonder where all the money has gone?
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Hello poor British voters and tax payers, and that means all of us.
We are all poorer because of this government's mismanagement of the economy.
I see that Ms CooperBalls has refined her vociferous claims about the economy such that we are actually only in a better state than since early 90's to withstand the crisis that attacks us.
This is unusual, since previously the government has steadfastly claimed that we only had any economic growth from 1997, which is surely late 90's?
However, I suspect that this is simply a ruse, trying to push the problem back towards the conservatives.
How many weeks till the autumn statement I wonder? There are a lot of chickens that have come home to roost and which need to be released in that statement, not least is a hangover from the 10p tax fiasco, and how low income taxpayers are going to get re-imbursed. Remember, that was one we were promised way back when, and the magicians thought they could pull the metaphoric rabbit out of the hat.
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MerryCherry 104
Funny that because I dont want Brown to resign. So come the next election he will be wiped all over the floor for to clean up all the mess he has made. Then when he has lost he can go where we will never have to see or hear him again.
Roll the next election that is Brown has the nerve to call one.
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Has Osborne annoyed someone at the BBC? You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel with this. Someone discussed something but didn't follow it up for whatever reason. No crime was committed. There is no corruption. So says Labour MP Tony Wright.
It seems to me that the real story here is that if you annoy Lord Mandelson you can expect the former and current PM and the BBC to be complicit in attempts to sabotage your career.
Maybe I'm being unfair and Osborne's actions look terrible if you're inside Westminster, but I'm not and neither are most of your readers. If you continue with this kind of obsession maybe most will be.
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#3 djLazarus
You could not be more right. We Hear almost nothing about the alleged corruption of Mandelson as a Commissioner should he not have been Ennobled lord Mandelson of Aluminium. Nick surly this is the story that needs to be delved into and pray tell me why nobody will go after Mandel son the way they go after the Tories. What terrible threat does Mandy and Campbell hold over the BEEB.
I have always thought the BBC was sacrosanct as a public information channel but the way it has fawned and toadied to NuLabour over the past 11-12 year i hope and pray for one thing should the Tories form the next government. Privatisation cut you all loose and treat you with the contempt you all deserve the BBC can no longer claim to be unbiased in it's reporting. NuLabour has been in power for the last 11 years and the BEEB has been dumbed down so far it makes the BEANO look like a credible broadsheet.
GB and his cronies have destroyed this country millions have been let in. Yet now they tell us that we need a grown up debate about immigration (Annabell Tiffin vis Phil Woolie ass) what hard question did she put to him no just nodded wisely like some old sage (as She does with Labour supporters). The Tories only had to mention immigration and they were heralded as the personification of the Nazi Party.
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So Nick you resist running with the Mandelson staying on the billionaires yacht while trade commissioner and go large on a story about Osborne's non donation.
Truely the BBC has become the Biased Broadcasting Cabal.
If the Tories change the BBC settlement, give some money to Channel 4 and others and demand huge cost savings and protection of the public of excessive price rises in the face of the legacy of Brown's incompetence induced economic meltdown, once elected you and Peston, the Today Programme and the vapid Radio 5 Live crew will be the cause. You have moved beyond parody
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116 virtualsilverlady
I agree. Whatever happened to the investigation into Mr Abrams who paid tens of thousands to labour illegally? Plus all of the others.
I've also been amused by comments in the media about "friends of Lord Mandelson." Who would want to be his friend unless they wanteed somthing?
I spoken to quite a few people today and the general comment is "Who cares, they're all as bad a s one another."
Hear, hear!!! I'll second that.
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#116 virtualsilverlady
I thought Mandleson had to be made a Lord in order for him to take up his post in government, as he's not an MP any more.
I might well be wrong here, so please correct me.
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Bring back dueling....
and get this daft story over and done with.
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What might the sentence be for attempting to bribe an elected politician?
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#117 embraman2
Where have you been since 1994?
Apart from the last 4 years or so, after they had both left the scene, the entire political agenda was set by those creeps in this country, or was attempted to be set by those creeps might be more accurate, since they did occasionally get caught out.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I smell a Tory mail to get their supporters to blog here!!
The Tories are infamous for skewing polls and after reading the first 80 or so comments it appears that either anyone who is interested in this story is a Tory, or they have put out the word to saturate this site in order influence the story writers and give the impression that the nation feels George has done nothing wrong and the BBC is biased.
In the words of Barry Manilow or George Osborne
“Oh Mandy, you came and you gave without taking, but I sent you away”
Ha ha ha.
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#131
What an unbelievably lame response, Alistair.
You are clearly losing the will to support this lame duck of a prime minister who can't even revive his support with the biggest ever injection of public money in history into the banking system.
So Gordon Brown meets his nemesis, finally; even spending more money has absolutely no effect. What are you going to give him for an encore? Greenshield stamps?
And tonight what will the ever responsible BBC give you for headlines? Round 2 of the Osborne/Mandy/Deripaska/Rothschild show..or will the BBC actually find its serious side and discuss why no amount of money is stopping the daily meltdown in financial markets. Will they find the time to discuss the fact that tomorrow we will be in recession and we coud be there for the next three years? Will they ask the question - why can't the recession or bust word cross Gordon Brown's lips?
Any thoughts?
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#131. Alastair and Robin. Never mind the history - look at the present. Smash Gordon claims that UK Public Sector Debt is 37% - a "fact" repeated by Harperson in the house. This conveniently omits Northern Rock - if included that number rises to 43.3%. Now let us include PFI projects, unfunded public sector pension liabilities, Network Rail and Bradford & Bingley and we get to a cool 126.9%. Add in a possible £500 Bill bank bail out and that number rises to a staggering 161.1% of GDP. That equates to 96,500 pounds per household. Lets be charitable and assume that we, the taxpayer, get some of the bank money back. Even then our children's future has been spent (not invested) by Smash Gordon and we have nothing to show for it. Someone is going to have to pay for all that and it won't be the public sector hand out junkies like you Alastair will it? The fact (and it is a fact) is that Bliar and Brown have bankrupted Britain.
(These facts will naturally be disputed by the Hammer and his pals as they come from the Centre for Policy Studies report - "The Price of Irresponsibility" published yesterday but they should remember that these are facts based on the government's own numbers. Could the George Osborne story be a useful means of keeping this off the front page - I think we should be told)
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Nick,
It appears that grown up news is beyond your wit or range.
In your last post, you claimed that there was proof to back up your allegations, and you were asked to come forward with that proof. No proof is offered by you, Mandy or his friends, ergo, this is just media fluff (as Prescott was always allowed to get away with saying when the going got tough).
However, to ennoble an individual when there are questions about their dealings with billionaires in their capacity as EU Commissioner dealing with those rich individuals raises huge concerns about Brown, yet as you stated yourself, you were reluctant to pursue this story too far.
In jumping at the merest whiff of concern relating to the Conservatives, you have betrayed all that you are meant to stand for. Clearly you are well suited to the gossip channels that Mandy and Campbell make available to you. These back channels appear alll that you are fit for.
BTW, in calling for an investigation, Brown has reopened his own role in the Ecclestone and other funding scandals that relate to Blair / Brown in the early days of NuLabour. Are you going to bother pointing this out and asking difficult questions, or will you just feed off the morsels that the spin merchants offer on a plate? I am not holding my breath.
I can no longer wish you all the best.
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It's gone quietish. Nothing getting updated on the blog for over half an hour.
I see the BBC has all its priorities in order in the policial world. Anything to do with the non story gets prominence, including 3 separate sets of analysis, including this blog. Browns admission that the economy is going into recession, a pure technicality - we all know it already is, gets tucked away.
Can't get anything shifted , can you. The game's up.
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Nick,
I don't have the time to read through every post here, so the point may have already been made, but:
We have allegations that our last Prime Minister, Tony Blair, while in office, altered government policy to favour a man who had just donated £1million to his party. Further, allegations that he lied to parliament about it. Please note the money really did change hands in that instance.
We have allegations that an EU commissioner, Peter Mandleson, responsible for trade, accepted hospitality from an allegedly dodgy Russian alluminium dealer, creating a conflict of interest at the very least.
The first is kicked under the carpet by starting a Speaker's enquiry which can do nothing as Blair has left parliament.
The second is squashed by the EU commission saying there was nothing untoward, despite its proven inablity to recognise corruption within its own ranks every day.
Hardly a ripple in the media, broadcast or print. Yet this affair has created a feeding frenzy, when no money changed hands. It has certainly focused everybody's minds away from the first two hasn't it? I hope now that Mandy and Campbell are back centre stage in British politics we are not going to see the media led by the nose again to suit the Labour party, but the omens are not looking good!
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What is concerning is that politicians from all parties have no common sense when it comes to who they enjoy the hospitality with. The free lunch always has a price ask Neil Hamilton, Peter Mandleson/Geoffrey Robinson, Harold Wilson (Ganex),Paddy Ashdown, John Perfumo etc etc.
Who said what and who was there is irrelevant, what is relevant is why were were they there, an "old friend" some friend.
Political parties have to get funding and all parties need to stop the crazy way they try to get money.
So if the Labour party held a dinner at £1000.00 per head and a Russian aluminium billionaire paid to attend or took a table is not that the same.
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im glad grodon brown says he wishes the matter to be investigated fully, as then we can have a full and far reaching investigation into:
* peter hain's deputy leadership donations - which have mysteriously gone quiet
* peter mandelson's role in changing european tariffs which allowed a businessman to profit from 30 million euros, days after staying on the businessman's yacht
* tony blair's role in lying to the house of commons and via media interviews, regarding bernie ecclestone and his donation to the labour party and the role tony blair played in having an exemption for formula 1, regarding tobacco advertising.
* the role of the labour party MPs who use parliamentary stationary to write to all their constituants, prior to an election, "reminding them they are there"
can we also have an investigation into the BBC.
We are told the BBC are independant, this is part of their remit, they should face questions on alistair campbell's role in providing news stories for their programs.
exactly what role is alistair campbell now playing around the government and this country's prime minister?
is he working for the labour party?
if he's not working for the labour party, why has he got open access to the office of prime minister?
i cant even get through the gates at downing st to take a simple photograph, yet this man can come and go in and out of the commons and downing street, at will, why?
who will investigate this?
one last investigation - can we have a parliamentary investigation into the government giving actual answers to questions please?
this is our democratic right, yet seldom does the prime minister give an answer to a direct question.
the opposition leaders nick clegg and david cameron, are not in a position to action any proposal or policy, they control no finances, they control no budgets, only the government are in a position to action their plans.
it is not now nor ever permissable to the people of the UK, when MPs ask of the prime minister questions that they want answering, the PM is allowed to waffle on about nothing and point to the failings of other parties (who are not in office) instead of answering for his own policies that are being imposed on the people of the united kingdom.
how do i get this investigation actioned please? do i write to the speaker of the house? does my local labour MP have to agree before he asks a question? can i write to any MP to start an investigation?
cmon BBC get a grip and start challenging those that do, instead of promoting campbell and mandelson's waffle!
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Interesting - we have a financial crisis , potential recession looming and this is what is the main political story - shame on the bloody lot of you - this is peoples lives you are playing with and the sooner that you realise its not a damm game where you score debating points about nuances of meaning and reliase that the voters who put YOU in office to make life better for them is about to be shafted really well by policies that you developed! You wonder why there is such contempt for you ? Look no futher than this - fix the economy and I might listen but at the moment you sound like spoilt petulant school children and we deserve better !
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BORING BORING BORING The Biased Broadcasting Corporation is sensationalising something which is frankly non news. Did George break the law - as you first gave us the imprression he did. No.
When Sophie interviewed Lord Mandy on sunday, and he talks about that he would not act improperly - why can't you challenge him - i.e passports, mortgages, on billionaire's yachts also?
Frankly - what with you and Peston - I think I will watch everything over broadband so I don't have to pay the TV licence fee, which subsidises such flagrant biased reporting.
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The rotting totting cowboy tories are at it again......................................................
"And what you give is what you get" I hear C.E.H. call.
The nottinghill financiers are on the ship of dissapate.
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Not an insider so have no idea who is pulling the strings of whom.
GO needs to learn a lesson and Mandy needs to grow up???
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This all started with a letter in the "Times" from some rich waster who believes we are interested in what he thinks.
In come the BBC front men-the likes of Nick Robinson,Andrew Marr and their BBC editorial masters and puppeteers-all of whom cannot even hide their affection for NuLabour and distaste for the Tories.
What do we end up with, poor Sain and Bill on BBC breakfast having to read all this rubbish from the autocue as the lead news story in the UK.I bet you both Sian and Bill were thoroughly embarrassed having to try to evoke some sincerity on this MOST important story when the world is in financial meltdown and our soldiers are spending most of their time dogging bullets in Afganistan and Iraq.
Sorry but the BBC is a has-been.
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Am I correct in my uinderstanding that the one witness to the alleged Osborne faux pas is in line to be made the boss of one of the billionaire's large companies.
Mmmmmm!!!!
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Bias by The BBC there may not have been but the story is still a non starter in spite of the fact that the whole media has scrambled onto the bandwagon! How can Mandy's misjudgements be rewarded with a Lordship and a seat in The Cabinet when GO's so called indiscretion is met with a slap in the face and a front page story of ever increasing proportions? If that disqualifies him from a future place on The Conservative Front Bench then GB's 10 years poor stewardship as Chancellor should have disqualified him from going on to be P.M./Master of The Universe.
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146 Shellingout
Yes! You are right
Mandelson did have to be enobled to take his place in cabinet.
He is not an elected MP
Makes you wonder why they bother having elections anymore when they just please themselves who they have in government.
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Brown said we are heading into recession today, Nick. But that's not important, is it?
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The standard of reporting on the BBC has plummeted to new depths.
It seems to me that someone in the higher eschelons of the BBC has been told to make sure all this meaningless claptrap gets top billing in the news, in the hope that what is really going on in the country passes us all by unnoticed.
Does the government now have full control of what is (and isn't) reported on the News? If so - it's a very sad day for the media, and for the rest of us.
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I'm really heartened by the fact that on Nick Ferrari's morning LBC show although George Osborne didn't get off scot free Peter Mandelson's fingers were voted by a vast majority of his listeners to be grubbier than George Osborne's in all of this. Well done Nick for redressing this present ridiculous imbalance.
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I heard there was tea involved.
Did Osbourne offer to be Mother? Is this the problem here?
Did he try to sweeten the deal?
Come on Nick - much more meat on the bone of the economy for some serious journalism. Don't just twiddle your thumbs waiting for Mandy or Campbell to get their evil eye on something else. We don't believe them anymore Nick, and your credibility is fast disappearing the longer you try and flog this dead horse.
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Well, I guessed Mandelson was up to his neck in something nasty, when he suddenly jumped ship from Brussels.
Now we probably know in general terms what it was, though the details are not out in the open yet.
And I don't expect Rothschild paid for his own stamp when he posted that letter to the times, either.
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Here are just a few facts which give a little perspective to the players and their toys, involved in this little skirmish.
1. There is currently a global fleet of 6,800 super yachts in excess of 24 metres or over.
2. The net value of these super yachts is £59.4 billion.
3. There are currently 625, 30 metre or larger, in the order/construction pipeline which represents a further $19.8 billion.
4. As of 2006 there were 94,970 individuals worldwide with a combined total wealth in excess of $13trillion.
5. the Forbes Billionaire Club now has more than 1000 members, with a combined net worth of $3.5 trillion.
6. The new breed of billionairs are emerging from from Russia, China, India in fact from all over Asia.
And I was wondering where all the money went, silly me!
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#155 Mawilli
"I see the BBC has all its priorities in order in the political world".
I had to laugh earlier after going to the BBC News politics page. Major bold headline - "BROWN URGES OSBORNE INVESTIGATION". Sub headline in top RH corner - "UK recession likely, says Brown".
mmmm...(scratches head)...
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#151 bluedefence (strange name given what you say!)
It's always like this here, despite what JD et al say about it being "full of Draper clones".
I suspect if IP addresses were published along with the names of commenters, the number of (apparent) individual posters would shrink dramatically, and reveal a large cluster of people in 25 Victoria Street and 10 Storey's Gate.
I can but speculate.
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Nick it's well known that people regard you as an apologist for the leibour heirarchy, that's evident from reading the posts on this blog.
So we therefore can't rely on you to report impartially things that really matter, such as the economy imploding and the real reasons for this. Your skill in diverting attention is to be commended.
smcfbuddie sums it up well enough.
Do you ever read your blog? If so you are might thick skinned!
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All it is, and it is so trivial, is that Mandy has had a hissy fit over the mild revelation by George on TV. We all knew Mandy and Gord. didn't get on and so it wasn't anything earth shattering.
Nat (is he an intimate friend of Mandy?? ROFL), tried to trump it.
That's all.
End of story.
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Nick,
I want an investigation into why apparently Gordon Brown did not know about loans to the labour party. Why didn't he know, was he told to leave the room, or was it a private party.
As for any future dinner parties should not civil servants be present to record converastions for posterity.
If people did know that George Osborne was doing something which, by innuendo, they consider to be illegal then when were they going to go to the appropriate authorities so that charges could be brought. If they did not think that anything illegal was happening then where exactly is the story.
How much more is going on which is actually illegal which is not coming to the attention of the authorities then where does that leave democracy and the rule of law. Where are the whistle blowers? Should civil servants be invited to all the dinner parties so that proper records can be kept?
In the meantime Gordon Brown still has to read out the names of the dead from Afghanistan, what about Iraq, what exactly is happening, why are our soldiers still there.
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So just as the BBC seem to accept that there is nothing to the story and that they have been very, very foolish...
Brown calls for an official enquiry?!!
Given his position in the polls, as the election looms, I wonder if he planning on locking up opposition leaders on the strength of similar unsupported accusations?
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Isn't the fact that the economy is in freefall enough news for the BBC ? Why are correspondents wasting time on a non story about a politician trying to raise funds? That's what politicians do ; probabably Mandelson is mad he wasn't in a position to ask at the time. Nu Labour could really use the funds, their finances, like the country's have been decimated by incompetence , and the people in charge don't even have two wars, 5 million unemployed and world events to lay the blame on. Maybe Gordon advised them also how to be prudent with money.
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#153
thanks Scoto..
the Centre for Policy Studies report is very damning indeed - as it should be.
The next worry for this country is if gordon Brown takes one look at the Argentine experiment today and nationalises pensions; one huge lovely pot of pensions savings to raid and Uncle Gordon will pay out when he's feeling generous.
The other thing that is utterly hypocritical - how can you nationalise banks for their imprudent off balance sheet wholesale funding and then keep the natioanilesd entities...off balance sheet?
Prudence has become incontinent.
Call an election..
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154
Regarding Nick
I was a little concerned yesterday when Nick appeared to be setting the agenda by stating what is alleged as a matter of fact.
It is easy, I imagine, when working in the exulted circles of people such as Mandelson and Osborne, to think you know the people and as such "know" the truth.
I always thought that the job of the BBC news unit was to report the news and not make judgements, one way or the other.
Nick has, I fear fallen into the trap of the ultra-ego set of believing himself infallible.
Heaven forbid that I should ever have to anything to do with politicians, billionaires, hedge fund managers and especially political and economic commentators, particularly the latter who prefer to make the news rather than report on it.
Just as most of us wish the age of the celebrity were at an end, I wish that the BBC news celebrities, Robinson and Peston, just reported the news.
I do however admit to an admiration for Sophie Rayworth, whom I understand dislikes celebrity.
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Mandelson grants trade concessions worth millions and the BBC barely raise an eyebrow. Osbourne doesn't get any money, and the BBC scream blue murder. So much for their independence. Is this mandelson getting his revenge against Osbourne, or Peston?
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Just looked at the picture at the top of the page.
Nick, where did you get that dreadful mac.
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Re; 128
So what they do with ex Trots, Marxists and sundry fellow travellers? Label them NuLabour, put them in the Cabinet and even send them to the House of Lords?
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Mandelson, Osborne, Rothschild and Deripraska = Mafia. If you're in the mafia and you talk about the mafia you get wacked. What were they all doing together in Corfu any way? having a lads weekend? These networks of secret societys that control the lives of comon people from behind closed doors or from their private villas and yatchs need to be routed out.
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#158 Denzil,
Glad you reminded me about the Hain deputy leadership donation.
Several blogs by Nick R on here about what was a late declaration of a donation rather than any law-breaking, and condemnation from a blogger called "Robin" (surely not our own JD)
Peter Hain donation blogs
To all those who say "it's only £50,000 it doesn't matter" as a defence, what about Wendy Alexander illegally accepting £950 from a Jersey-based businessman (millions of pounds from Belize-based businessmen is, however, ok). I seem to remember this was "proof" of how corrupt the Government was.
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Why has this all blown up now? Rothschild has had two months to get ticked off with Osborne gossiping about his chum Mandelson.
Consider this. Rothschild's hedge fund has lost almost 50% of its value in the past year. He is unhappy - and his rich friends who invested in it are pretty unhappy with him. Who knows, this may include his very rich and very powerful friend Mr Deripaska. And now (although not directly Osborne's fault) the comments about Mandy have started to show Deripaska in a poor light.
Also, the PM, Chancellor, Governor of the BofE and Chairman of the FSA have all said that tighter regulation is coming, especially for those nasty, short-selling hedge funds. This will make it much more difficult for Rothschild to recoup his losses, let alone make stonking profits in the future.
But, all of a sudden, Mandy is the Secretary of State responsible for business regulation and, although not directly responsible for financial regulation, will undoubtedly have a big influence on the Government's plans. No wonder Rothschild has decided that his friendship with Mandy is more important than his friendship with Osborne.
Or am I too cynical?
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All this about BBC Labour bias is ridiculous.
For the past few years Cameron and his chums have been given the easiest of easy rides, how much coverage did him cycling the wrong way up one way streets get?
How many times was he allowed to keep his head down whilst Labour took the flack for any issue going?
How many times did Question Time roll out Claire Short and Gregg Dyke to rubbish and batter any Labour aunt sally who was unlucky to have been on the show?
How many times as Boris been brought to account for London knife crime?
Of course the list goes on and on, the BBC even trotted out stories about how the government were accused of dodgy arms deals and neglecting nuclear workers without bothering to mention the government in question was not the current incumbents but Thatchers crew some 20 years previous.
No government is perfect and I would say that applies to most broadcaster as well, but the BBC is there to put both sides and its nice that that is finally happening.
PS Balhamu, the name is aligned to football not politics. ;-)
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What does it say of Labour with Mandleson and Brown? We are supposed to believe that Mandy and his mates knew since Summer of Osbourne's supposed careless whispers on Mandy's Greek holiday but did not bother to mention it to anyone until November; when GB calls for an investigation? Credible?
What I would really like to know is: Did they eat all their grub, or were there leftovers? If so, did the politicians present take GB's advice and use them?
Also, no-one goes on about banks being saved by the taxpayer. If allowed to go to the wall, the creditors would have called in Labour's debts and bingo, no more Labour party.
Hmmn getting on with the bank job.
Just so I can be clear, do we now have state funding of political parties or not?
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Nick
A gentleman is someone of private means who does not need to work.
Osbourne is not a gentleman as he draws a salary.
Rothschild I am told runs a hedge fund: he is in trade.
Where are the gentlemen?
Both might like to think they are gentlemen as each comes from a well-upholstered background but wealth is not a sign of good breeding.
The most common hobbledehoy knows that you do not snitch on your mates. You do not grass people up and what is said between friends remains there.
So why is it presumed that there is some different rule for those who might like to consider themselves as being gentle-born?
No, Osbourne is revealed as being the sort of individual he looks like. On the other hand Rothschild has over-reacted.
This is a tale of two former friends falling out. It happens, it is of little significance, so can we move on?
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I notice that the Tory cheerleaders are out again in force shouting "bias" against the BBC whilst trying to minimise the case against Osborne who has obviously been caught out.
Politicians such as Osborne and Mandleson should stay away from the hospitality of big money and big business and only meet such people on official terms. There is far too much social contact between ministers and the likes of Murdock et al who often seems to be lurking in the background in these incidents.
The lack of integrity of many of our politicians never ceases to amaze me.
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#186. You might have well answered your own point: Wendy Alexander accepted. The Tories did not.
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Is there just too much news? Are there some things we really don't want or need to know? Have some people got just too much time on their hands?
Will you Socialists take an adversarial view of anything mildly irregular?
Are the media milking the whole thing?
Maybe its the only news they have - sad.
What I do know is that the Conservative supporters are fed up to the back teeth with Brown's Britain and the liberal do-gooders and if the election came today he would be out of town by sundown.
Yachts, billionaires, Russians, Prima Dona's, whatever they throw into the ring, will not daunt us.
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186. At 5:18pm on 22 Oct 2008, balhamu wrote:
"To all those who say "it's only £50,000 it doesn't matter" as a defence,"
Err the exact amount of money involved is exactly to the nearest whole penny the princley sum of £0.00p
The legion exmples of where the Labour Party ACTUALLY TOOK THE MONEY are well documented and YES does show that the Tory Party at the present tilme do have the better judgement at TURNING DOWN offers that would have been LEGAL (if received from Leyland Daf, a UK company in this case-allegedly) but have an obvious inappropriaeness about them.
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Nick this non story is so typical of the BBC these days. Sad!
Bring back Greg Dyke.
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#151: It may be true that the Tories are organising their faithful to contribute here, but I can assure you that not everyone who is writing in to say that Nick R is wrong in giving this "story" is so much credence is a dyed-in-the-wool Tory.
I am absolutely no fan of the Tories (just read what I said about them in my earlier post, #14), but I happen to think that on this occasion, they are right. There is no even remotely credible evidence that Osbourne did anything wrong (at least if there is it hasn't been made public), so in my book, there is no story.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I hope that the Conservatives decimate the BBC after the next election.
My suggestion thereafter:
1. The licence fee is retained.
2. Any media company can bid to undertake production of chunks of licence fee funded output, i.e. drama, news, films, quiz shows, kids, lifestyle, educational, documentaries and radio
3. Companies can bid for production rights for one year maximum.
4. The BBC brand is retained and the staff slimmed down to a small core which is just a broadcast vehicle
5. Competition for the chunks of licence fee will cause media companies to raise their game.
6. Companies will lose their licence if they are not producing content in line with the charter.
7. Our licence fee gets chanelled to the best talent in the country and not the incumbent.
8. Of course the upside for news reporting is vast.... any sign of bias in reporting and the production company gets fired. Any sign of focusing on tittle tattle spread by spin doctors (like the George Osbourne case), rather than reporting the news and the production company gets fired. We would not see any of this current BBC obsession with spin doctor driven drivel.
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The disease has to get worse before it gets better. Let NuLieBore enjoy their illusory resurgence--- good always wins out in the end, even if we have to wait til 2010 for the Nu-Lab boil to be lanced.
Our ancestors would be weeping with shame if they could see how Brown has dragged Britain into the mire.
The people of Britain will tolerate no more of Labour's lies.
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Nick
Why don't you highlight this little nugget of information regarding the punitive price hikes by
energy companies and why Gordon Brown seems unwilling to be the tough consumer champion?
From todays Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/22/banking-scotland
"Brown thought he could do a deal with Lloyds TSB as Eric Daniels, its CEO (whose connections to Pinochet's Chile were as well-hidden as Brown's brother Andrew's position as chief PRO to Electricité de France, now owners of British Energy). "
I wonder why....
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Poor George - how awful that one of his own chums has dropped him in it.
Murky and unpleasant. Not sure why Cameron wants to defend him so valiantly though. This is an opportunity to quietly dispose of the lightweight. The old Bullingdon connections must run deep!
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# 189
It's not Mandleson who's raised this issue. It's Osborne's (ex)mate Rothschild.
And as for waiting until November:
a. It's October
b. It's in response to Osborne’s rather poor attempt at innuendo and spin unless you claim Mandleson started a smear campaign against himself.
Interesting how so few posters want to discuss the topic of this blog. I agree that Mandleson and co have faults (and with his track record I'm sure we will get to blog on them in the not too distant future).
But the question in hand regards Osborne. Even if he behaved legally (which I think he has), he has shown poor judgement and behaved badly towards those he pretended were friends. (I say pretended as you do not abuse a friend’s hospitality by gossiping in this way if you actually like or respect them).
Also, as an elected MP and public servant, I would like to see the evidence of him raising his concerns regarding Mandleson to the relevant authority as soon as practical after his holiday. If he didn't, and he really feels the (then) commissioner behaved improperly) he has failed in his duty to the taxpayer and should go. If he feels there was an offence then he is guilty of failing to report it until expedient to his political cause.
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Let me take you back in time to December 2007, about the time that Wendy Alexander was caught out accepting £950 from someone not on the electoral register.
Read the Telegraph article and the blog comments. Think about the similarities of the position that Osborne would've found himself in if successful in soliciting a donation. Ask yourself if double standards are at play.
Double Standards - who us
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So Gordon Brown refers to "authorities" investigating, the allegations "of the past 24 hours" without actually saying who or what he is talking about directly. Even his own MPs seem puzzled as to who the "authorities" Gordon Brown mentions actually are.
Once again, Gordon Brown makes a statement and Downing Street immediately has to step in an attempt to clarify what he said. But even Downing Street spokeman can't throw any more light on the subject. It's a simple enough question. Could it be that he doesn't actually know himself ???
Perhaps, Nick Robinson could enlighten us as to who these "authorities" actually are. He seems to think he knows everything else about this situation, and seems determined to keep it going.
Spin and smear are back. This is Brown's Britain.
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Tell you what worries me most about this G. Osborne thing is that politics now seems to come down to whose the best at mud slinging and who can prove they have come from a background that isnt posh. As someone who loves politics Im shocked that the news papers are running with a non-story when the real story is the economy and how people will survive it. G. Brown is hiding the debt were in and the public need to be informed but all were hearing is this Osborne thing.
Gordon Brown has called for an enquiry into this simply to distract from the problems were now facing and he really shouldnt be allowed to get away with it. If there had been a proper enquiry into all the misdeeds of the Labour party we would be here for weeks.
People seem to admire Mandelson for his ability to bring someone down whilst avoiding questions being asked about his own involvement with this Russian.
I was watching a re-run of the 1964 election and everyone then spoke with a posh voice even Tony Benn so none of these talented people would have got into politics because they wouldnt fit into the no posh criteria.
Politics has now sunk to an all time low in my opinion and I hope it back fires on Brown.
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#192 Terry
On what grounds do you state the Tories did not accept?
How do you know the Russian didn't decide against it? Osborne was keen enough on the idea to bring along the head of Conservative Party fund-raising.
There are gaping wide loopholes in the law anyway - politicians are only criticised for failure to exploit them properly (see the millions of pounds that flow in to the Conservative Party from Belize-based businessman Michael Ashcroft from a UK-based company that does no business and whose sole purpose is to allow Ashcroft to donate).
As other posters have stated, Osborne wanted to (legally) channel these foreign donations through a UK-based company to take advantage of the loophole.
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The BBC is the Parish Magazine of Alistair Campbell and Mandelson but I'd hoped Nick was less tainted.
Disappointed Nick makes a story of Osborne's folly in trusting an old friend who is a close mate of Deripaska but virtually ignores the bigger story of the Mandelson connection. Mandelson is a much bigger fish than Osborne and any alleged corruption on his part is of far greater concern.
Rothschild ... Mandelson ... hmmm, now what can they have in common... as well as a taste for troughing it?
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Crikey Nick, you've got the PM going as well now, and here a recession on the way an'all.
"Gordon Brown has called for an investigation into claims George Osborne tried to solicit a £50,000 donation from Oleg Deripaska"
Don't you know how easily distracted he is?
Good grief, is there no decency anymore?
Gc
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Just like to the old Millbank days with the BBC back in tow
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I think the most damaging thing to come out of this is one of perception - an increased impression around the world that the Conservative Party is controlled by a group of Bullingdon chums. Nothing inherently wrong with that - I am no class warrior and it is likely they are all highly capable chaps. However, if they were all in government, is our sceptred isle not at least partly exposed to the petty squabbles and feuding of a group of toffs whose values are based in Regency, or at least Edwardian London? I'm just waiting for Whites member Cameron, after being slighted somehow by the Prince of Wales at the Berkeley Square Ball, to ask of Camilla "who's your horse-faced friend?" and subsequently flee to Caen in disgrace.
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Glad to see that instead of being the first item on the 6 o'clock BBC News as it was last night the whole story has been derogated to such an extent that it was dealt with after at least 15 minutes of real news about The Recession. Although Frank Field and Gordon Brown were anxious at midday to keep the story running and an investigation instigated The Electoral Commission have as yet received no evidence to make their participation in this affair likely.
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6. At 11:15am on 22 Oct 2008, Poprishchin wrote:
Do politicians live on the same planet as the rest of us? (Rhet.) My cat was sick this morning, I'd rather vote for the sick than any of these buffoons.
Brilliant! I'm sure the cat's offering had more substance and goodness in it than the politicians.
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198# J Cook
Why are you obsessing about the BBC. Every other news organisation, print or broadcast is giving this story the same prominence.
At the end of the day Tories like yourself and at Westminster can't stand the spot light being on YOU.
You just want no scrutiny. just the opportunity to snipe and criticise.
Well get used to it because the Tory lead in the polls and as the election gets closer the more it will happen.
Judgement and Policy will get the same treatment as that of the Government.
So far it doesn't look like you're ready up to it.
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Apparently 20,000 pensioners will die this winter due to not having enough money to heat their homes.
Which story is getting more traction?
The one about a non-existant 50,000 quid.
Dear lord, you really have to wonder what sort of hermetically sealed bubble journalists actually live in when this story overpowers one about people dying through a lack of money to heat their homes........
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I think there may well be a sleazy ministerial character in the background saying to his chums: "For goodness sake chaps don't force the issue too much. My hands are not quite as clean as you might think!" It would suit this slimeball to leave George Osborne's character and judgement just enough open to question without delving too deeply into the details of the affair methinks.
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for me, it's time the centre right party's got they own tv news station,sky news is for the labour party,channel 4 news is liberal news and bbc news is left of centre and are anti tory.FACT
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Nick,
Here where I work (to feed my ever bigger tax bill), we have started a sweep on who will last longer out of Mandyson and Ozburke.
It's a tough one to call as Randy Mandy has form for "spending more time with my family"-ish, than any other MP. Whereas Oz couldn't spot trouble even if it had a big sign on it saying BIG TROUBLE HERE!!!
Anywho, Mandy is down to be gone before GB and Oz ain't in the Christmas Tory photo.
Xxxx
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215;
Noone is now obsessing about The BBC. The story is slowly receding after the initial excitement and will be dead as a dodo in a matter of days when it is recognised that there is little or no case to answer. I think George Osborn would be well advised to sue a few people for libel and consequent character assassination. I wonder if a good solicitor is being lined up as we speak?
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#198, "I hope the Tories decimate the BBC after the next election".
What enlightened and fair minded individual you are!
Whilst I have absolutely no doubt that the Tories could easily decimate the BBC in the same they did the NHS, Education, Rail, Roads, Mines etc, they have to actually win the election first and after this weeks shenanigans it might just be "hard cheese" again old boy.
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#198 Jonathan,
Why even keep a "BBC"?
Impartial reporting is obviously something you are not keen on.
The most obvious path to follow would be the Government funding and commissioning only the 'public interest' elements of broadcasting that would not be provided in the market place (though the advent of cable and satellite means that these would be very limited). Why should the BBC provide news coverage - ITV/Sky and many others do already, they can take on the investigative journalism (e.g. bring back the Cook Report).
Then the license fee can be repealed. And we can ensure that the news follows a right-wing slant at all times.
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220~ Sicilian
What do you mean No one is obsessing!!!
In the last hour or so,
198, 208, 210, 211, 213, 218 ALL banging on about the BBC.
What would you call "obsessing"?
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#216. Twas always thus when it comes to matters involving Tories. I remember stories about Mellor in his football kit (and personal relations pertaining thereto) ranking higher than other stories much more newsworthy (apparently that story was false too).
It's not uncommon for Tories to be treated with some degree of contempt whilst the Government is given an easier ride.
Others may say what they like, but the Beeb does have a natural leaning to the left. Maybe good, maybe bad, depending on your point of view. But you don't have to be a rocket scientist to work it out.
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210 Ilicipolero
It would appear any numpty can refer a posting and the house rules are so loose anything can be blocked, often reappearring later. Wouldnt worry about it. Take your time. It doesnt matter what your position is it will fit with some and not with others. But thats all part of the minestrone. Just put a bit of parmesan on top. Be boring without the bits in it. Exactamundo.
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216 Barking Madness
Whenever I email something to the BBC, such as on the Daily Politics I address my emeial to "London BBC."
The BBC is so London centric that it hurts. The only time they come out of London is for an emergency (such as a rail accident), or weather (such as storms).
For opinion they generally get away from centrol London, for example Romford, but not more than about 20 miles.
The only thing that really gets them excited is politics, particularly if there is someone to blame. It is all an extended version of Prime Minister's Questions.
I agree with the people talking about the licence fee. Fewer staff, better programmes, and less news would be a good start.
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215 Eaton Rifle
The reason for 'obsessing' about the BBC are they are the only media organisation who are supposed to be impartial.
Perhaps the bigger reason is that we pay them to provide a certain level of quality.
Any cursory viewing of BBC 'Breakfast news' and the BBC's wider obsession for tittle tattle will show that, if we just focus on news coverage alone, we are not getting value for money.
A shake up of the system, would rectify that.
Who knows a potential company bidding to produce the BBC branded news, might actually allocate some resources to undertake some investigative journalism, rather than just deliver 'opinion pieces'.
I would welcome some investigative journalism, because I would like clear and unbiased assessment of these two areas:
1. What are the Conservatives plans for government?
2. What has the current government achieved over the last 11 years and is this value for money?
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222 Balhamu
Quite the opposite. The BBC are variously accused of bias by both left and right.
Lets clear this up once and for all.
If the production company that was producing BBC news, was required to work to very strict guidelines and under threat of being fired if they transgressed, I think the news organisation would go far more out of its way to ensure balanced coverage.
If the rules of operation were crystal clear, we the public would have better faith, that reporting was impartial.
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#159 cardiffopinion
Well said, couldn't agree more.
Why not have a good irrelevant row and get your party placemen to fill these blogs with negative bs?
It's so much easier than pressurising senior politicians to explain why no government has ever bothered to meaningfully regulate the city.
And now we have a senior civil servant - the Governor of the Bank of England no less - talking us into an even deeper recession!
You couldn't make this stuff up.
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Labour think governing's a game
Of ducking and dodging the blame.
Look how they spin
To hide their own sin:
Their sleazy MPs have no shame.
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#223 Eatonrifle
Well said.
Some folk will only be satisfied when all news media peddles the same right wing isolationist and xenophobic tosh.
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"make their feelings known by following the BBC complaints procedure"
Forget it. As I know from expereince, the BBC complaints procedure won't even correct blatant falsehoods.
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PETER MANDELSON! PETER MANDELSON!
PETER MANDELSON! PETER MANDELSON!
PETER MANDELSON! PETER MANDELSON!
PETER MANDELSON! PETER MANDELSON!
Just in case you don't know who he is, Nick.
Go ask him some questions, my friend.
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#225 glanafon
Thanks for support, whether we agree politically for me isn't the point. I do my utmost to respect the contrary opinion and respond accordingly, with one exception.
This "story" though seems so spurious and has got me quite irritated, and then to have legit' (compared to so many others), posts removed is a tad frustrating. But not to worry. I sincerely believe if Labour or the Tories mess up they should be made to own up. This is where better quality journalism comes to the fore. Right now, I sincerely believe the BBC could do considerably better.
For the record, as an anti Gordon Brown and many of his colleagues, undecided voter, George Osborne has done himself and his party few favours. Cameron needs to be decisive regarding GO, yes or no now, and then live with the fallout. For me, David Davis is a competent politican, with a grasp of treasury/fiscal matters the equal of Vince Cable, and, frankly would have performed considerably better than Osborne recently.
Anyway, to cut to the chase the wholly arbitrary manner in which honest posts are referred is tiresome. (Yes I realise I am arguably more facetious than I need to be, but I am a journalistic type myself and everyone has their style). Kind regards
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Oil now below $67/barrel.
Full blown recession looming.
Just in case Peston is interested?
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A very insightful website.
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#228 Jonathan,
The BBC already are controlled by an independent board.
The reason people see bias is because politicians like to throw allegations that they are and because the (independent) line taken is different to their personal viewpoint.
A question for you - do you personally believe that the BBC joining the rest of the media in reporting this story shows bias? And why? Would you expect it reported if these were Labour politicians involved?
I'm sure Osborne didn't break the law (or attempt to do so). More operating outside the spirit of it, through soliciting a donation from a foreigner and looking for ways to pretend it came from a company in which he had an interest. Wendy Alexander got slated in the media (and forced to resign) because a £950 donation from someone from Jersey was channelled through a company (legally as they thought) but someone made a cock-up and it wasn't all legit.
Belize national (and apparently not on the UK electoral register) Michael Ashcroft's multi-million pound donations that are so important to the Conservatives are similar to the arrangement that Osborne was apparently seeking, and even worse in many ways as the company through which his donations are channelled does no business at all, and is merely a shell to allow the spirit of the law to be side-stepped. This is something worthy of investigation (though, it is all entirely legal I'm sure)
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I do remember... the corridors of Broadcasting House were strewn with empty champagne bottles. I'll always remember that.
Jane Garvey, BBC Five Live, May 10th, 2007, recalling May 2nd, 1997.
No bias, eh?
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#236
Is oil below $67 a barrel a bad thing now?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Why did Mr Osbourne ask his friend Mr Feldman to join him on the boat ?? Mr Feldman was not invited. He was encouraged to enquire about donations. Mr Osbourne has broken a rule of friendship -keep you mouth shut.
Despite Eton and Oxford, Mr O is easily dazzled by money.
I hope Mr Cameron realises that friendship is an insufficient quality to keep a place in HM Opposition.
The Opposition should not have to defend itself - it should be on the attack.
Mr Osbourne has let down his friends, his constituents and the country.
Mr Osbourne, please resign from the shadow cabinet, now.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#238 balhamu
Do you know how I can contact the independant Board??
Time after time, my innocuous but contentious posts are posted briefly, then removed. Unfortunately for the backward moderators here, I have kept every copy dated and timed.
All I would say is, for those interested, read 'em quickly they WILL vanish!!!
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#239 power_to_the_ppl
I hadn't realised that the English still celebrated May Day!
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The "wood for the trees" in all of this is that the current process of political party funding requires massive overhaul. Osborne (and probably Mandelson) prostituting themselves for a few thousand roubles is wrong.
State funding of political parties coupled with caps on spending is the way forward.
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So a rich boy gets offended over nothing, and it makes headline news? Yawn!
Can we move on to the real news now please?
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And 241, big surprise not!! Perhaps Ilicipolero is blacklisted
Will this help?
Peter Mandelson is a genius, Gordon Brown is a legend. Nick Robinson should win the Nobel prize for Journalism and the Conservative party is full of crooks and conmen.
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I hope the Tories get in at the next election because the BBC and journalists with a blatant and hysterical Labour bias like you will be toast. I suspect there is little chance of this comment making past the official censors!
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Just a correction about Gideon.
He's not part of the Eton clique, having cut his teeth in the ghetto at St Paul's School.
He was, however, a member of the exclusive Bullingdon Club at Oxford to boost his credentials for high office under a Cameron administration.
Incidentally (off-topic a bit, though maybe relevant to the BBC bias question) David Dimbelby was also a member of the Bullingdon Club at Oxford
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Plotting a way through the global economic crisis is helping Labour blow the Tory myth of competence, and Osborne and Cameron's bad week is helping blow the Tory illusion of leadership.
The Tory party character, funding, and ethos is totally off beam and removing Osborne wouldn't necessarily change anything because their issues go much deeper than mere appointments.
Lord West commented that it would take up to 30 years to deal with radicalised Islamic terrorists, and dealing with radicalised Thatcherite Tories is no different. The more they struggle the longer it will take.
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Ilicipolero,
I would doubt your posts are being removed.
Why would they be removed? Obviously not for what they say about the BBC/having "inconvenient right-wing views that the BBC want to silence" - there's plenty of these views that do get posted with no problems.
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I...polero,
Try and refer one of my posts.
It'll get removed and replaced tomorrow.
It's not a conspiracy about what you post. More a very risk averse attitude to what is said on here (probably justified due to libel laws and risk of litigation)
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233 Alexswanson
Absolutely correct.
I have complained about sports coverage. You may as well delete your e-mail or burn your letter as soon as it is written - given the lack of investigation or effort the BBC put into your points.
Same goes for the government petitions website - has anyone ever got a result from the petitions website where the government has said "yeah we can see you point of view - whilst we don't agree with everything, the thousands of you petitioning have changed our mind to a certain degree. Thank you."???
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96. Mister_E_Man wrote:
"Can I suggest that anyone who's sick of the blatant bias shown by the BBC with their insistence to run with this pathetic story, make their feelings known by following the BBC complaints procedure as can be found here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints"
Done! Thanks for the link Mister
You can also call the BBC direct on
03700 100 222* to make your complaint.
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re: 246, oldnat
Oh yes, there are still a few remnants of Merrie England left.
Interestingly, the maypole and the Labour administration are widely thought to be representative of the same thing.
Taxpayer, assume the position!
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All I am saying is that there would have been no problem for the 50k if there had been a Brit on board, alas no passport fixer was to be found, so don't pass GO and collect your 50k.
Do we own the Labour party yet, as taxpayers? I only ask as they seem to owe my banks some money and, as a taxpayer, I think it would be a jolly good show if they stumped up pronto.... a good job the banks in question didn't go under, thank Gord eh?
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238 Balhamu
A good post there.
Although I'm probably not getting my point across very well....
I would like to see the BBC raise its game in general - not just in news reporting.
My issue with the BBC - is that it is an incumbent monolith. Over a period of years it has grown its own culture and since people are known to 'recruit in their own image', like natural selection, the culture of the BBC is exacerbated.
The attempt to take program making to Manchester (a government initiative?? I can't remember) is an attempt to either cost cut, or force some change to the London-youthful-liberal-culture that is pervasive in the BBC in the 'Media City'.
Yes - we may have some form of BBC board and regulation but that doesn't go far enough for me.
I'd like to see some form of 'forced renewal'. I'm fed up with the incumbent managers of the BBC, spending our licence money, as they see fit.
I'd like to see things shaken up.
If we took television news coverage alone, if this was shaken up, I'd like to see Channel 4 news (who we partially subsidise anyway) and ITN have an opportunity to bid against the incumbent BBC team to provide our 'BBC branded news'.
In a contest of this nature, I'd favour the arch-leftie John Snow and Channel 4 news (even though John Snow once pushed me out of the way to get on a tube train very rudely!!) - they at least provide news that comes across as balanced and in-depth rather than trivial.
I'd also like to see our licence money chanelled to new and innovative program makers. Maybe there is an outfit out there who have got better ideas for a blockbuster drama than that awful "Bone Kickers" thing that was launched recently.
Lets shake things up a little!!!!!! The BBC are resting on laurels that they are not earning at the moment.
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" Nick Robinson on the 10 o'clock news"
Today Mr Rothschild stayed silent in his New York home...The Conservatives are praying he stays that way"
Another piece of unbiased reporting? This is NOT news reporting - it is absolutely DISGUSTING innuendo.
Mr Robinson was until recently relatively unbiased and brought some humour to the news.... Now Campbell & Meddlesome are back that it has all changed. One can only wonder- Why?
This together with the poison from Peston
means the BBC has disgraced itself beyond repair
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re: 252
CEH pokes his nose out into the late October air, whiskers twitching.
Go back to your nest CEH, there's no cheese here.
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260:
The BBC are merely trying to cover their backs in case they are accused of bias. Stoking up innuendo is their way of trying to deflect attention away from the fact that they have fanned the flames of an already closed story.
Government spokesmen questioned today on what exactly they were accusing George Osborne of:
"Errr, errr, ummmmm, well errrrr misjudgement?"
Hardly a sound case for Gordon Brown's call for a proper investigation but then we all know his agenda don't we. The fact that Frank Field was the lapdog used to introduce the claims during PMQs says it all really!
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261 power_to_the_ppl
still flamebaiting??
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Balhamu - to support my post at 259 above
Check out the BBC website coverage for football games this evening. Both Chelsea and Liverpool are in action against European opponents tonight. Kick off 7.45pm
The last time the BBC bothered to update their web-site was 55 minutes before kick off. I was forced to look at Sky's web site to see what was happening.
No doubt - if there was an event the BBC culture 'approved of' occurring this evening - then we would have wall to wall coverage of that.
Unfortunately - not everyone is interested in 'knitting with llama wool' or 'Peter Mandelson goes around an entire ministerial career in 90 days'..... ;-)
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174. balhamu
"I suspect if IP addresses were published along with the names of commenters, the number of (apparent) individual posters would shrink dramatically, and reveal a large cluster of people in 25 Victoria Street and 10 Storey's Gate.I can but speculate."
Speculate all you like Bal...NO ONE tells me what to think or what to say!
Maybe it's just the intelligent free-thinking-sick-of-this-government majority who are making most of the posts!
And you can just bet.. we will be making most of the votes at the next election!
Call the election NOW!
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re: dhwilky
Hey wilky, if you think I am a troll why do you reply to almost everything I write?
I'll save you the trouble of answering: it's because I speak the truth and the truth frightens you, so you try to convince yourself the reality is otherwise. Fortunately for the UK it is only you who's convinced.
And for a devoted follower of the false prophet CEH you seem to be finding it rather difficult to 'let go'--- just like him. I think it's past your bedtime. Go and have a lie down... ;)
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was the 50K for something other than a donation to the Conservative Party ? ... I only ask because, as others have pointed out, it seems a trivial sum for a shadow chancellor to hope to acquire and for a billionaire to offer ...
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#253 balhamu
In which case, one of our "colleagues" here is being spiteful.
Two contribuors appear to have more than their fair share of removals.
I have taken the habit of numbering, dating and timing all of my contributions and making a personal copy.
I still intend to take issue with the BBC about their policies which seem to me wholly arbitrary.
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re: 265, notsosilent
Well said!
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262. sicilian29 wrote:
"Hardly a sound case for Gordon Brown's call for a proper investigation but then we all know his agenda don't we. The fact that Frank Field was the lapdog used to introduce the claims during PMQs says it all really!"
It wasn't Frank Field. He is one of the very few Labour MP's who seem trustworthy...
It was the last question from the old OLD Labour Dennis Skinner.....and you are right..that does say it all
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#254 balhamu
Perhaps you're right and a touch of paranoia from yours truly.
We'll let it play out and in the meantime I'll do my bit to avoid antaganising our touchy mods. Cheers
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Presumably the BBC complaints department is something akin to a recent television advertisement for a well known brand of Danish lager that begins with a C and ends with a G, the middle bit resembles ****** You might know the one, a random employee wanders past a locked room with a ringing, dusty telephone that hasn't been answered in quite a few years.
While the entire country, elderly folk and small businesses, suffer through shocking government, the impartial BBC offers up Telly Tubbies and Nick Robinson with precious little inbetween, marvellous value for the licence fee.
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No doubt Nat Rothschild can afford to be generous when he entertains. But I would suggest it is unfair of his guests abuse this generosity and gossip about his parties to the extent he needs to retaliate.
Interesting contrast in holidays here. The PM choosing to spend his vacation in England and Scotland was criticised for what he wore.
Presumably the likes of Mandleson and Osborne wore the trendiest of clothes to Nat Rothschild's house party, at least they were probably "cool" as the Med tends to be hot.
Now it seems, as ridiculous and frivilous as it was to bother about what the PM wore when he went on his holidays, we have to bother what Mandleson and Osborne gossip about when they go on theirs!
I think the key to this particular issue is not what was said but the blatant lack of discretion in repeating it.
The consequences could turn out to be politically damaging to those concerned.
But this is only likely if the party's host continues to consider his privacy and generosity has been violated.
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265# and others
The proportionate anti government/Labour blog on here should at max be 3-1 even with the most extreme polls. Why is it more than double that?
Is there some a co-ordinated, orchestrated, organised, campaign to dominate "opinion" on the blogosphere?
I don't know, but why are the contributions on here so disprportionate to the polls.
J cook has asked earlier for some investigative journalism, start with that.
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272 Ilicipolero
"While the entire country, elderly folk and small businesses, suffer through shocking government, the impartial BBC offers up Telly Tubbies and Nick Robinson with precious little inbetween, marvellous value for the licence fee."
Surely 'Points of View' is worth the license fee alone. Teletubbies isn't really for you, its for 3 year olds. Thats why you don't find it intellectually challenging enough. Try 'Nina and the Neurons'. That'll be more your cup of tea.
How about 100 greatest Conservative speeches? hosted by Jimmy Carr Would that improve your view of the BBC, the BBC who funds this blog you are so fond of.
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@ 202 steve-way
i am a Tory supporter and have made my feelings known in previous blogs about this as a non story, and that i believe mandelson should be investigated by an independent British body.
So i find myself at odds having to agree with you.
re George Osbourne, if he believed there was a conflict of interest with mandelsons stay on the Yacht, at the time, why did he not report this fact at the earliest opportunity after hols, if he did why have we not heard about?
good point steve...
perhaps that is a legitimate question for NR to ask.
ohh i forgot didn't the EU clear mandelson of any conflict of interest, or any wrong doing, was this before or after the hols/yacht??
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First of all, I've never been to CCHQ (I don't even know where it is) and I've never spoken with anyone in the Tory party either in cyberspace or real life. Given that I live in a Liebore stronghold they never usually even both to campaign here.
I've also never been contacted in regards to an opinion poll, nor do I know anyone else who has. I've long suspected that opinion polls are generously misleading anyway and have more to do with the agenda of the pollster rather than those questioned. In the words of Vic Reeves, "82% of statistics are made up on the spot" (something Mark Easton and some other BBC bloggers could do well to consider!)
I'm suspecting the "disproportionate" contributions to these blogs being anti-government is probably to do with the fact that the government 's performance in every area has been appalling, and their demonstrated respect for the electorate since the last election has been truly insulting.
Not to mention the fact that we're threatened by law to subsidise what is essentially government propaganda by such poor excuses for "journalists" as Robinson and Peston - personally I figure that if we're paying for this garbage to be published we deserve the right to have our say.
In the past 2 years I've only met one person who considers the past decade of government to be a success - and he also told me at the time that he "can't wait" for our council to start sending people round examining the contents of our wheelie bins and issuing fines to those of us who fill them with the "wrong kind of rubbish". This is the mentality that has destroyed our once-great nation and as far as I know, even in a Liebore stronghold, the vast majority of people seem to just be waiting for their opportunity to kick these cretins into touch, that's if they haven't emigrated already.
I'm not saying the Tories have all the answers by any means. It's just that they simply can't be any worse than what we have at the moment, and change can only be for the good!
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mmm..rothschild still throwing his toys out of pram, news headline the 'guardian'
"Dont cross me again, warns tory accuser
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sorry posted before finished derrr.
rothschild, toy's, pram. 'guardian' headline.
"dont cross me again, warns tory accuser"
millionare banker (rothschild) puts Osbourne on notice not to challenge his account.
This sounds very much like threatening behaviour, is that a criminal offence?
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The Electoral Commission said it would not launch an inquiry, as "soliciting a donation is not an offence". CASE CLOSED.
The BBC must now make equal effort to correct the public misconception as they have made to create it for the sake of a cheap story.
Nick, you should get back to reporting the news and stop the endless sensationalism. If you want to be the celebrity political editor from the BBC, you do not need to damage the career of the best Shadow Chancellor in living memory, just go on a jungle reality show.
Mr Osborne took no money, asked for no money, he was on the boat because he was a long time friend of Nat Rothschild, the Tory fundraiser was there because he is a personal friend of Mr Osborne and Nat Rothschild has been a big donor to the Tories. No story.
Lord Mandelson was spending time with a man who has made a LOT of money through actions Mandelson has made as trade commissioner. Mandelson was benefiting personally from the changes he made whilst at the EU. That is corruption. There you have a big story.
Nick, do the job we pay you for, not the job Gordon Brown wants you to do.
BBC, you may support Labour, but people are suffering now, enough is enough. For the sake of all of us, rich or poor, stop trying to keep Labour in power and give us honest, realistic and balanced reporting.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Looks like Japan heard CEH was on his way
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270:
You're quite right. It was Dennis Skinner. I have a lot more respect for Frank Field who is anything but a lapdog. My sincere apologies to him and The Forum!
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274:
I think one of the reasons that anti-Government bloggers are so vociferous and plentiful on here is the perception that The Media appear to be giving Gordon Brown an easy ride at the same time as disproportionately picking holes in the Opposition. It's borne out of a frustration that none of the current political commentators seem to have the 'Robin Day' method of asking deep, searching questions in order to elicit proper responses to criticism. Gordon Brown appears to be getting away with never aplogising for his mistakes and constantly deflecting blame onto those not in Government and not in the least responsible for our present mess. Another reason of course could be that Gordon Brown's supporters don't have a leg to stand on in his defence.
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A few simple questions:
In the US Billionaire Hedge fund managers do not appear to pay tax thanks to generous tax loopholes. Do they pay tax in the UK? Or are they all non doms?
Is this the New Labour ethos, let the very rich become even richer and let the little people pick up the pieces when the markets dive and the fund managers need to be bailed out?
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Online forums tend to become overrun by a handful of people with skewed opinions where quality standards aren't pro-actively imposed. It's nothing new.
Really, the best thing to do is just calm down, and avoid temptation and paranoia, and fix your eyes on the horizon. Execute well and success takes care of itself.
There's 5-10 posts in here, max, that are worth reading. The rest can be dumbed down to a handful of ratings. Guess which posts Nick's researcher prints off.
I've been at this sort of thing for YEARS, and I know how people in the entertainment industry parse this stuff, and I don't see why politicians or the media are any different. Content is king.
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It's a remarkably cleaver wheeze by labour to divert the attention away from the leisure pursuits of Lord Mandleson.
Now lets get back to the issue.
Mr Mandelson was a European commissioner with responsibility for trade.
What where his contacts with the oligarch, time, place and reason. I think there should be an Inquiry, how about it Mr Brown, great away to clear your Business Minister, get the facts in the open. Ask the question Mr Robinson and put it on your blog.
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On another thread grandy wrote:
'Mandelson was much too clever for you my friend and had the measure of the interviewer, exellent performance by Mandelson. Welcome back young man.'
I think this statement says more about the ineptitude of the interviewer than the excellence of Mandy. Would that we could bring back Robin Day. He would have made mincemeat of the 'noble' Lord.
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Gordon Brown has been made to look utterly foolish now. He reccomends that this "thing" be reffered to the authorities, yet (according to Downing Street) their are no authorities who can investigate this as no law was broken, let alone any Parlimentary or election rules.
The worrying thing is how Gordon Brown now believes that the law is irrelevant. In his mind, doing nothing wrong, breaking no rule or law, but merely having been defamed by Mandy's billioniare mates is a serious enough offence to warrant official investigation by the authorities.
Now come on BBC, get the real story.... What was Mandy doing on that boat and why does the Rothschild viper want to distract the media so much with baseless allegations of a non-crime??? AND why are you falling for it? Get investigating the Rothschilds and the Russian Billionaires relationship with Mandy. They surely must be hiding something.
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Nick it's a NON story,you know it,we know it.
Its a story hyped up as a diversionary tactic from a Labour Government who when the going gets tough don't really know what to do. Loads off huff and not a lot of puff( with one notable exception of course) Lots of initiatives,mostly thin air when examined closely and plenty of smoke and mirrors and now Mandys back in town to muddy the waters even further.
Frankly Nick we are all a little concerned that you have tied your colours to one mast and are thus unable to be balanced.
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286:
A more condescending, self righteous post you couldn't wish to see anywhere. In essence if you dare to disagree with The Government's handling of the economy which is the story of the moment you have skewed opinions, your comments are not worth reading and you are contributing to the dumbing down of the entire blog.
Absolute piffle!
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#258
Good point.
The banks are beginning to call in loans and overdrafts made to businesses that look dodgy.
As the Labour Party are effectively going to be wiped out at the next election and currently owe over £17m I think their bank should get on to demanding the money back pronto.
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Mmmm ...
1. As regards the recession - is it Brown or is it Wall Street? - the majority here may be getting it wrong but it's looking more and more like the public are not. Good old public. Big problem, this, for the Eton Mob don't you think?
2. Gold is sure plummeting, isn't it? - thank god that Gordon had the foresight to dump it when he did.
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#274: Why would you expect comments here to reflect opinion polls? This blog is about a very specific story, not general voting intentions.
I suspect there are plenty of people who are annoyed with the way the BBC have reported against the Tories here who wouldn't actually dream of voting Tory come the election. I, for one, have no intention of voting Tory at the next election, but I nonetheless see that they have been gratuitously smeared here and don't mind speaking up in their defence on this specific occasion. I'd be amazed if I were the only person in that position.
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@285 > "Is this the New Labour ethos, let the very rich become even richer and let the little people pick up the pieces when the markets dive and the fund managers need to be bailed out?"
----------------------------------------------------
Yes. Labour are only in power to serve the ultra-elite global billionaire banking class. Their primary purpose (according to their own actions) is to insure the ultra rich remain in powerfoul dominion over us little people forever, that the middle classes are turned into working classes and kept absolutely dependent on an authoritarian state that will monitor, spy-on and regulate with fines and a dizzyingly complex and self-contradictory bureaucracy, every part of their existance. They will increase the numbers of the poor and keep them in the poverty trap to keep them compliant and keep them dependent on the labour government.
All this Government has done for the poor is increase their numbers and their dependency on the state.
I cannot believe the ignorance of labour voters. That they would swallow the blatant lie that labour stands up for the poor and the working class. How much of a blatant lie is that? When Rover was in trouble, even during an election, labour did nothing of any consequence to help, in fact they ruined the one deal that may have saved them. When the billionaire elite banking system is in trouble? QUICK hundreds of BILLIONS of pounds are miraculously found to bail them out!
What happened next? did the bail out work? NO! the banks are not lending again, but they are hoarding the money. Not that increased lending again is the answer. It show the ineptitude of Brown that he wants banks to go back to lending at 2007 levels, the same thing that created the mess in the first place. You do not solve a problem by increasing the amount of the problem. The banks have a systemic flaw in the way they operate.
LET THEM FAIL! We need to replace the corrupt financial system with one that works for the benefit of all. One that creates REAL wealth for the people instead of debt slavery. The current banking system is designed for one task only. Move the real wealth from the people the the banking elite. Through cyclical relaxing and then tightening of credit, colateral is moved from the people to the banks. Debt only increases. The only time debt decreases is when collateral, (tangible items of intrinsic value) are passed from the people to the banks through defaults and loans are written off.
The basic problem is, as the money supply is increased through loans going out to increase the money in circulation, the interest to repay on those loans is never put into circulation at the same time. Therefore the total, capital + interest cannot be fully repaid. More credit has to be created to cover the interest. That guarentees that debt increases. After debt rises to unsustainable levels, the banks tighten credit and loans are called in. If the loans cannot be repaid in full, then the collateral offered as security is relinquished to the bank.
It is a huge scam and it is designed that way from the outset.
the entire banking system needs to be reformed to suit the people.
No, we cannot do that can we? That might upset the Rothschilds or the Rockefellers or the Loebs or the other elite banking families that really run the show. The Rothschilds are far too powerful and Brown and co fawn at their feet.
Labour does not care about you. You are all useless eaters as far as they are concerned. They want to tag us and track us like cattle. The treat us all as potential terrorist suspects and they take our compliance utterly for granted. We are nothing more than cash cows to them.
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A bigger diversion exercise has never been planned since the dummy invasion of Dunkerque in 1945.
The economy is heading into recession.
Mandelson has spent an unusually long time in the company of a Russain billionnaire whose company has benefitted from tariff reductions he oversaw as EU commissioner.
Nat Rothschild's Atticus hedge fund is down 44 percent and has had to put some holdings off balance sheet.
This is the biggest smokescreen blown in politics for a very long time.
Thankfully, judging by some of the posts here, the great British public has seen straight though this attempt to bury a whole bunch of bad news.
But it's clear whose fingerprints are all over it: the Campbell spinmeister.
He's losing his touch. Too much time spent in the confessional of his memoirs - which only tell half the story, of course.
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Morning Nick,
time for a new thread methinks.
This one's run its course, since it was a non-story, and needs to be replaced with more meaningful subject matter, like the economy.
Unless, of course, it's needed to try and keep the hounds away from the real problems.
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#295 Purpledogzzz
Its not just the banking system that needs completely changing, the tax system does too.
I have a work colleague whose father passed away a little while ago. Through his life he paid tax on all his earnings. With what he had left he bought things, which he paid tax on. When he died, the value of his estate was such that his family paid inheritance tax on it. They put what little was left into savings, which they are now taxed on.
His initial earnings have now been taxed FOUR times.
How is this reasonable?
I'm surprised they don't slap a carbon tax on everyone for breathing out!
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I do prefer this stuff to come from the pen of Nick Robinson, who is after all the Political Editor, rather than from Robert "I've got a world scoop" Peston who might spend a little more of his time explaining to us the implications for a pound sterling that is rapidly approaching parity with the USD.
But, Nick, could you answer the obvious question? Why are the Conservatives bothering to raise funds at all? Given the complete pig's breakfast that Gordon (moral compass/end to spin - remember that?) Brown and his gang are making of everything they touch, the Tories are going to sleep-walk the next election with loose change from the back of the sofa.
By the way, Nick, are you going to get El Pesto to cover the Scottish by-election for you? I wonder what his sources ("What was that, Alistair?") would tell him about that.
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I say that Osbourne and Cameron know they have been rumbled and shown up for what they really are. Just like Del boy they are nothing but Spivs.
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@297 > "time for a new thread methinks.
This one's run its course, since it was a non-story, and needs to be replaced with more meaningful subject matter, like the economy."
----------------------------------------------
Agreed, and seeing how Peston has strayed onto Nicks territory, perhaps Nick should go onto his and try to scoop him on some disastrous economic news?
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CONGRATULATIONS!!!
Well what an amazing, fantastic, superbly orchestrated and well organized response from the Conservative Party.
Not only have they managed to totally skew this blog, it looks like they have been working hard down other avenues and the BBC have responded by removing this item from their front page!
The Tory machine is very well funded and no doubt this is a flavour of what is to come in the next 18 months.
The truth is out there so dont be cowed into submission.
I also noticed the obvious trend to field old timer big hitters in defence of the young no hopers continued with Heseltine being the latest on Newsnight to defend George.
The nasty party is back!
PS Although road deaths have fallen to their lowest figures for over 30 years under Labour, the Tories are once again willing to risk people’s lives to score cheap points by removing fixed speed cameras in Swindon.
Vote Tory and get mad cow disease, gun massacres, GM crops, NHS & education destruction, pollution, smoke filled restaurants, zero financial regulation, 15% interest rates, 4 million unemployed, blood sports, irresponsible and reckless government.
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#302.
No point in being hysterical. It doesn't do you any favours.
Some folk on here need to take it easy and go with the flow.
By the way, the current Breaking news is that some police forces have been undercounting serious crime.
What a surprise.
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Re RobinJD @ 296
My concern is that, while most of the people posting here see this as a piece of deliberate misdirection by the spinmeisters of new-New Labour (still playing the same old tricks, so not so new-New after all), that clarity of view seems to be stuck in the rarified atmosphere of this blog.
When will we see mainstream public discussion or investigation of the (genuine and serious) questions about the noble Lord Mandleson's curious and close relationships with Rothschild and Deripaska?
When will we see Nick or the BBC or the other broadcasters admit that they have got this monumentally wrong?
When will we see Nick, the BBC or the other broadcasters apologise to Osborne and the Tories?
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Frankly this whole Osborne business is the best proof we have had of the BBSRC's impartiality. Nick himself said he suppressed reports about Mandelson's but he and his colleagues are out all guns blazing for the Tories.
There is no need to prove the case when we have Nick R's confession!
Enough of sham-impartiality. The BBC is the Independent-on-Air; can we have a Mail-on-Air; we know both the Independent and Mail have an agenda - so do the broadcasting media except that they in this country they are all Left.
Sham-impartiality is a way the Left censor and ban views from those who dissent from the 2008 Establishment.
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Wafer-thin friendship.
Nither of them can be called a gentleman.
Politics is not only about legitimate-sounding rhetorics and benign-looking gentlemen; It also tells, in a more compelling way, about the oposite!
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Hi Nick,
just to get a bit of focus on the problems affecting all of us I've found some interesting numbers.
These data show the tax burden (personal and corporate) and national debt as a percentage of GDP. Samples are taken at 10 year intervals (snapshots, but the rolling averages are very close).
Year Tax Debt
1975/6 54% 43%
1985/6 44% 43%
1995/6 43% 38%
2005/6* 46% 40%
(Source: HM Treasury Public Finances Databank)
Interestingly 1975/6 was the last Labour governments IMF moment, 1985/6 and 1995/6 were related to tory governments boom and bust cycles, and 2005/6 was, of course, under El Gordo.
The latest stats from HM treasury, as at end of September, put total public sector debt at 645 bn, including Northern Rock but excluding any PFI bookkeeping sleight of hand, and of course prior to the current financial upheaval. This figure represents 43.4 % of GDP, government figures, not propaganda made up by me.
It should be borne in mind that interest on public sector debt has to be paid, and this accounts for some 3 bn of government expenditure each year. If you wanrt to borrow, you've got to pay.
Now here's the problem that El Gordo and his less than merry men have got to solve. When the world is in recession, and your main income earning business has failed, and you've taxed the people beyond endurance, who you gonna call? Ghost busters?
El Gordo insists we can borrow our way out of this, and this may be because its the only way he knows. Consider, he has thrown 50 bn into the pot as capital injections (and this may not be enough) plus another 500 bn of various guarantees, which might eventually be called on. Overall the percentage of GDP is up, and the interest costs will rise, reducing the amount of finance available for other spending programs.
This is taking place at a time when the economy has shrunk, and the rate of growth is negative (recession), and the proportionate tax take is down. As people get made redundant, as is happening, so income tax take drops at the same time as benefit spending is forced upwards, and with oil prices falling, and hopefully petrol prices also, then the revenue flows will also shrink.
When government borrowing needs to rise to fill the gap, El Gordo plans to add more fuel to the blaze. Whilst he fiddles and we burn the crisis will just get worse.
The real nub here is that the current government is the cause of the problem, but cannot face up to it for many reasons, and are trying to use old discredited solutions without any real expectation of success, and will stumble on until reality finally bites. Gordon can't solve the problem because he created it, and it won't go away, and the world can't help, and eventually he will have to submit to an election, which he will lose, or get thrown out by the Labour party, which should have happened ages ago.
My god, will we ever pay for this? Yep, for the next 3,000 years.
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#301 purpledog
Should be easy for Nick, there's no shortage of bad economic news to grab hold of.
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Personal experience and research tends to support my view. I haven't even commented on individual opinions and allegiances, so this just highlights your own lack of understanding and bias.
The pro-Labour posts are generally more rounded and polite than THE PAST YEAR'S WORTH of spaghetti and backslapping the Tory mob have been throwing around.
The Tories have some brass kneck and can be very smooth but they're out of touch with themselves, the underlying trends, and reality. Never has anyone jumped the shark so gracefully. It's almost beautiful.
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#302 Bluedefence
Just you hang on there pal, your little wish list is coming your way, courtesy of El Gordo and his band of incompetents.
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#302 bluedefence
Hardly a surprise though - the Conservatives understand that perception is what is important, more so than what is actually right.
A (rather parochial) example from London, and the Mayor's quest to get rid of bendy buses and bring back a revamped Routemaster bus to the capital.
A big part of the case being made for abolishing bendy buses is that they are more dangerous than the non-articulated Routemasters, especially for cyclists.
Boris said:
“We should on day one, act one, scene one, hold a competition to get rid of the bendy bus. They wipe out cyclists, there are many cyclists killed every year by them.”
So, we should rid ourselves of these cyclist-killing bendies?
"I am informed that, thankfully, there have been no fatal accidents arising from collisions between cyclists and articulated buses in London since the introduction of articulated vehicles
Oh. No cyclist killing then? But they "wipe out" cyclists right? They are still a menace.
Serious incidents are defined by TfL as those where a cyclist may have required treatment, including in hospital. There was one serious incident involving a cyclist in each of the years 2005/06 and 2006/07, and two in 2007/08."
Oh. 4 'wipe-outs' in 3 years.
So that's the case against them destroyed then - he was wrong?
"This does not weaken the case for their removal. The perception of safety is an important element in whether people decide to cycle or not. The bottom line is bendy buses contribute to the perception that cycling is unsafe, and it is my intention to correct this perception in order to get more people cycling."
Oh no. Perception rather than fact is what is important.
Would be funny if this didn't a) Cost this 'value for money' mayor a lot of money when he could simply challenge the false perceptions for free; b) Lead to a reduction in the quality of bus services for Londoners; c) Increase congestion by increasing the number of buses required to maintain services at current levels; d) Increase pollution in London
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This subject is being milked.
Brown wants the heat taken off him - he is most deeply revised prime minister in our lifetime - so he wants an investigation.
Shows how afraid you socialists are of the popularity of the Conservatives!
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I must confess that although I smelt just a little whiff of bias against The Conservatives by The BBC in all of this I didn't give it any credence because I have enormous respect built over many years for The Corporation and put it down to sour grapes from right wingers. Having read The Press this morning and absorbed all the stories of complaints about BBC bias I'm beginning to think that maybe they have a point. Mandy appears to have got off scott free as far as The Corfu rumours are concerned and is saying nothing. Fair play to The Press who appear to be backtracking on the original story and are now actively questioning Gordon's Browns motives for calling for an official investigation. Here's hoping that the entire sorry incident is put to bed and the more important issues of Economy, Crime, Education etc. take centre stage again. It wouldn't surprise me if George Osborne is moved sideways in 2009 because he hasn't greatly impressed me in his present role. I would prefer someone with more experience and clout such as Kenneth Clarke or William Hague to take on this high profile position.
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#304 boating
What would the apology say?
Dear Messrs Cameron and Osborne,
I am really sorry for reporting the allegations contained in every part of the media referring to Mr Osborne soliciting donations from a foreign-based businessman.
I accept that just because the Daily Mail, Sky News, the Telegraph and every other news outlet covered it, it didn't make it right to do so. If they asked us to jump off a cliff we wouldn't do it, would we? We showed clear left-wing bias in following the leads of these organisations.
In future we will not comment on any negative stories about your party, and only report critiques of the Government. We must help you in ridding the country of Brown and New Labour.
I look forward to working with you in this endeavour.
Yours,
Nick
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Hi Nick,
here are a couple of ideas you might consider as an alternative thread.
Apparently staff at the treasury are working all hours trying to cope with the crisis. Surprised or what?
And Woolas has been pulled off the QT panel for tonight. What's that all about then?
Just trying to give you the edge on Peston.
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The double act of Frank Skinner and Gordon Brown yesterday typifies the desperation of this present administration. I can't understand how a supposedly intelligent man could not see how his ridiculous call for an official investigation would be perceived.
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Nick is this story still going?
There is so much more juice going on at the moment, worthy of reporting.
Police undercount violent crimes.
(On whose instructions was this carried out)
Hercules Planes Fuel Containers not Armoured.
(PM promised anything the Armed Forces Need, MOD Minister doesn't agreed with Coroners findings).
Unites Protest against Power station being built in Nottinghamshire, by a Spanish Contractor and are using Spanish Workers only.
(Gordons British Jobs for British People line, can't even be regulated, WHY?)
These three issued are much more pertinant than this stupid Osborne story, I agree he was stupid being there but that is where it ends as far as most people are concern, No Laws broken. No Story really.
Can we have some relevent political news blog Please
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Nick, you have never been accused of anti - new labour bias, have you? No, didn't think so.
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Re bluedefence @ 302
CONGRATULATIONS!!!
What an excellent rant, well done. Please, keep going, let's have some more. You really know how to present the Labour case in an intelligent, constructive and well-reasoned way.
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313:
I can guess who it was that referred me but I won't be muzzled you can be sure of that!
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#302
Your accusation of those of us in here being part of an orchestrated Tory machine is truly hilarious - thanks for brightening up my morning :)
And hopefully Swindon will be the beginning of the end for the shameful era of cash cameras - which has been proven time and time again to have very little to do with road safety but a lot to do with government funds.
Do you have any response to #303's point about massaged crime figures? Don't you accept that this behaviour has been the cornerstone of Liebore's law and order policy over the past 11 years?
Anyone without red-tinted glasses on has been able to see for a good while now that government figures on crime (or anything else for that matter) have very little bearing on reality.
If you want to hear how they do it from the police themselves, read this:
http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/violent-crime-alert-inspector-who/
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#301
"Agreed, and seeing how Peston has strayed onto Nicks territory, perhaps Nick should go onto his and try to scoop him on some disastrous economic news?"
Nick - With the state the economy is in at the moment, that shouldn't be very difficult at all, shiould it. The difficulty would be choosing which news is more disastrous.
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#314 is referred.
Truth hurts in Victoria Street doesn't it?
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Nick,
I have called before for an increase in interest rates and an increase in taxes, this advice is contrary to the current view but hear this.
When a foreigner invests in the UK they look at two areas, not only shares and bonds but also exchange rates. You can make money if the share price rises but that gain will be wiped out if the exchange rate goes against you. The same with yields on bonds, yes they may well pay a good rate of interest but again that will be reduced if the rate goes against you.
That is exactly why foreign investors are now deserting the UK market. Look at the dividend proposal for LloydsTSB, if they don't pay a dividend then there is not much point in holding the shares. Pension funds the need the income on the shares to pay the pensioners, with a reduced work ofrce where do you think the money comes from, thin air!
Economies throughout the globe are in trouble, look at Pakistan, Turkey, Argentina, Hungary, America, Britain etc this is deadly serious, and you have not seen anything yet, the worst is yet to come. The frailty of the American economy will become more apparent as new President takes up his post. He will not be in a position to change anything, not for the better anyway.
What will happen is that I think various inquiries will be held in to the war, and occupation of Iraq, and we in Britain will be up to our necks in it. It was not only the war, it was what happened after the war, why did it go so wrong.
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#317
Well said Harry, we need to keep these politicians on their toes. They promise something, or make a public statement, to get the effect of the soundbite, and then think we'll forget all about it.
I'm waiting to see what steps the giovernment's going to take to provide the help to the lower paid over the 10p tax rip-off, which we have been promised will be in the Autumn statement, after the government has taken due consideration of all the facts.
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The Press appear to be united on the fact that Have your Say bloggers on here complained bitterly and rightly so about pro Government/anti Conservative bias with regard to The Corfu Affair. Well done to them for relegating the story to the back pages and questioning the motives of those that have a vested interest in keeping it running.
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#316 sicilian
Three Lions on Gordon Brown's shirt then, or a pineapple on his head?
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I've wanted to see the Tories character and shell company finances flushed out for a while so this run of topics is timely.
Cleverness and marketing aren't enough. The Tories have a distinct lack of quality and transparency and they need to he held accountable for that.
Good comment.
If the Tories were a little more wise they'd be learning from this scrutiny, but they're spending more time just worming around it or shifting the blame. This is expected in a competitive environment but the last thing they should do because "winning" is for losers. It's just so much grasping when they should be letting go.
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Rothschild, has it seems offered the tories a truce if they desist from trying to rubbish his version of events , he will return to the attack if they persist in doing so . Osborne has said he will not sue . It seems to me that Rothschild is the one speaking from a position of strengh, and perhaps verity ???
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I can't claim to have read every post in this thread but if the subject hasn't come up yet somebody ought to whisper "licence fee review" in the ears of a few over-heated journalists at the BBC. With El Pesto's reputation for balanced and impartial journalism shot to pieces and Nick Robinson giving this utter non-story rather more attention than it deserves, I would not be suprised if the lads and lasses in Millbank - variously dismissed herein by some as "spivs", "toffs" and "oiks" - are not playing Hangman on slips of paper. If I were a BBC tele-journalist who had spun this story for all it was worth to the Mandy/Campbell drum I might now be refelcting that it would be a mistake to be fooled by those floppy-puppy looks and public school accents of the Opposition front bench. They may not spit the undiluted bile of the Labour spin factory but what goes around comes around and I don't imagine the Tories will be writing this off with a shrug and a grin. There might be a lot of votes come the General Election - for which the Conservatives are pretty much a shoo-in - in telling every TV owner they are going to get a windall of £139.50 annually since it is unreasonable that they should be asked to pay the BBC to push the No 10 line.
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325
Quite, This blog is on 326 comments the previous one is on over 500 on the same subject, it's been done to death!
The world has moved on!
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309:
'The Tories have some brass kneck and can be very smooth but they're out of touch with themselves, the underlying trends, and reality.'
I think this sentence so accurately describes yourself it's unreal.
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#321
re the crime figures - the British Crime Survey is a more reliable indicator than recorded crime I think - less susceptible to manipulation by the police and politicians, by definitional changes and by improvements in the police service (e.g encouraging people to report crime that in the past they would not have done, or improving clear-up rates to make it worthwhile reporting crime)
That would be where to look for a definitive answer.
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326:
Those who cannot stomach the truth become serial referrers eh Chuck!
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The bbc should go after the real sleazey MP,s! Like MP Andrew Pelling .Suspended, and suposedly ill with "depression" he continued to draw his £63,820 salary. but at the same time went to work at a Japanese bank picking up another £70,000!! To all on uneployment\ incapicity benefit who try working and claiming there are stiff penalties! but not if you are a Tory MP it seems !!
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To expand on my point #333, the BCS measure shows a 40% drop in violent crime since 1997 (Home Office source though - haven't looked at the raw data)
40% drop in violent crime since 1997
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I'm not big on macho attention seekers or go out of my way to wave a British flag but as Mandelson's attention is focused on developing a national business plan, a local British team are putting together a car that will attempt to set a 1000 MPH land speed record.
The inspiration for this came from Lord Drayson, Labour's minister for science who is also a keen racing driver. Economics isn't just about mathematics. It's about vision, intuition, and psychology. And that's pretty much what I people have to grasp.
Zen is about opening the heart and mind or, as the ancient Greeks might put it: "happiness is the pursuit of excellence along lines affording scope". Sound economics and morality is correct action, and only Labour get that.
Can Labour become the party that makes dreams happen?
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#311 balhamu: "the Conservatives understand that perception is what is important, more so than what is actually right."
Indeed - and thanks for an interesting post. Those of us living outside the Great Wen don't get to hear about this sort of thing very often.
Did you see today's crime figures? - roughly halved overall, and yet two-thirds of people think crime is rising. I'm sure that Cameron will still talk about the broken society and the need to 'deal with' crime to tap into (and foment) this misperception.
I was also interested in the bias exhibited by the NY Times today - headline "Loose Lips Lead to Trouble for British Tories". Just as Brown is so powerful that he can destroy economies across the world, this surely demonstrates Campbell's nefarious grip on the world's media and not just the BBC?
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Mr. Robinson,
Surely as BBC Political Editor, your duty is to report what is going on in the world of politics in an unbiased way.
You have in the main ignored the story about Peter Mandelson and his friendship with Oleg Deripaska at the time that Mr. Mandelson was EU Trade Commissioner. Yet you make a big thing of the fact that George Osborne may have had discussions with Mr. Deripaska about the possibility of obtaining a donation.
The BBC likes to say that it is impartial and yet whilst the print media has reported the story of Mandelson and his various meetings with Deripaska, it is only mentioned briefly, if at all. However, when it comes to the Shadow Chancellor and what happened on Corfu, the BBC goes 'to town' on the story.
What is it with NuLabour and the BBC? Alistair Campbell manages to get a Director General of the BBC to resign and still the BBC is in the Government's thrall.
Shame on you, Mr. Robinson for not being even-handed. You should have made much more of Mandelson's meetings with Mr. Deripaska and the fact that there could have been a conflict of interest whilst Mandy was Trade Commissioner. But I doubt very much the BBC has any understanding of the concept of even-handiness!!
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'If the Tories were a little more wise they'd be learning from this scrutiny, but they're spending more time just worming around it or shifting the blame. This is expected in a competitive environment but the last thing they should do because "winning" is for losers. It's just so much grasping when they should be letting go.'
If there was anything to scrutinise then this statement might have some legs. As it is there are far more important issues to discuss.
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Since this thread is still stubbornly here, it's time to ask where's El Gordo now?
Obviously S Korea and Hungary, to name but two, are countries that are desperate for assistance in trying times, and would welcome El Gordo, saviour of the world, with open arms.
Is it really only a week since he was being hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread?
Its gratifying to note that Peston has obviously been reading my book, and has now shifted his blog back on to the minutae of struggling with government finances, or, more realisitcally, the lack of them.
Here's a nice political epitaph for El Gordo - "Gordon Brown - we're all the poorer because of his presence".
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Re sicilian29 @ 332:
On a philosophical note, how can you be out of touch with yourself? Surely, if you are aware of being out of touch with yourself then you are sufficiently 'in touch' with yourself to know that you're out of touch - that HAS to be contradictory.
And C_E_H @ 328:
You say, " "winning" is for losers" ? Surely by definition, winning is for winners, not losers.
I appreciate and applaud your sentiment about giving up, letting go and being happy, but that does rather tend towards being detached from the real world...
... or are you trying to lead by example?
I'm not sure what this thread says about "the Tories' character and shell company finances" - to be honest, I think this thread says a lot more about the shameful unevenness and bias of political reporting in this country.
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Nearly 400 comments on this site, 90% of them telling you , we don't care , its a non story , it is making the BBC look very, very bad indeed.
Impartiality , remember that from pre 1997?
What happened to change that?
What happened to allow so much dishonesty and spin to creep in to a publicly funded broadcaster?
Or did it just go to pigs and whistles after Andrew Gilligan , Greg Dyke et al?
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Who said this?
"George has shown some very poor judgment, the problem with Osborne and Cameron is that they have no experience, in the old days the Tories had men of substance"
ok for the pedants it may not be word perfect but its pretty much accurate.
Answers on a post card to: Norman Tebbitt competition, c/o Newnight 22/10/2008.
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This shows how terribly biased Nick has become. I almost never ever agree with what "the SUN" says in its SUN Says column, but I agree with the following:
"THE integrity of the BBC is coming under question for the way it has treated the case of the Russian billionaire and his British contacts.
Hundreds of viewers are complaining of unbalanced reporting — and with good reason.
According to its own internal memo, hundreds of listeners accused the Corporation of bias against the Tories — pointing out that the party received NO cash at all.
And it’s strange that the BBC only went into overdrive on the story AFTER George Osborne’s name was linked to oligarch Oleg Deripaska.
When just Labour’s Peter Mandelson was involved it boasts it resisted making much of any allegations.
Strange, that.
And reason enough for their own enquiry into left-wing bias."
-------------------------
Yup, If this has gotten so far that even the new labour supporting SUN thinks it is bad, then it is BAD!
This whole non-story and the way Gordon Brown and the BBC have MASSIVELY over blown it out of all proportion calls into question THEIR judgement.
That the BBC took a decision to NOT run with the Mandelson involvement with the Russian oligarch, but turn the much lesser involvement of Osborne into a top headline news item shows blatant and deliberate labour bias on the part of the BBC.
Nick, you have some explaining to do. Oh and an apology would be nice too.
Looking at the number of articles that Nick writes that are supportive of labour compared to those supportive of the tories at a time when violent crime is rising fast, vast parts of the economy are collapsing, educational standards are through the floor, We are loosing the war in Afghanistan and wasting time and money in Iraq, (a war, whereby our involvement was started by labour lies), when the government keeps losing massive amounts of our personal private data and yet they are trying to keep ever more of it. When Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister cannot get legislation through Parliament (42 days) When the labour Government seem incapable of running the country at all, that is the time when Nick runs stories favourable to labour at a ratio of about 8 to 1. And some labour supporters do not see any pro labour bias????
Nick, you need to come clean and openly admit your blatant bias and apologise for it. To drag Osborne through the mud for doing NOTHING wrong is shameful. Choosing to willfully ignore Mandelsons more serious involvement is even worse!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
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#337
Here's an alternative view.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/08/24/do2402.xml
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Nick,
I think that the questions over sex education are not the right ones.
For example, surely the way to start would be to explain to young women the phsiological changes which will happen, particularly menstruation. Would I like to brought up not knowing that every month I am likely to have a period and what results from that.
With regard to boys, then surely the best way to start is to explain that there is nothing wrong with getting an erection, it happens.
Finally, in this is where I may be moderated out but I think that more ought to be explained about masturbation. That sometimes you do not have to go out and have an intimate relationship with another young person. It is not a sin, unlike what I was told by the christian brothers at the school I attended. The same applies to both sexes.
A contentious issue I know but if we are going to talk about it then let us please be serious, and talk about the real issues. I am an older man and continue to be surprised about relationships with members of the other sex. I continue to learn about people, their wants and needs.
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I have just received my license renewal. Why should I be taxed to pay for a news organisation which is partial?
And "partial" means existing to serve "part" of the country.
Will this comment be spiked too?
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#339 jim,
That's not to say that Labour is not guilty of this too.
e.g. Labour have done a lot to reduce inequality/poverty (see recent OECD point) on the sly. They encourage the perception they haven't because they don't want to annoy Daily Mail readers by reminding them that their taxes are going to 'lazy scroungers'
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Nick,
here's something esle to ponder whilst considering an apporpriate subject for the next thread.
Now that countries debt profiles are collapsing, and those collapsing are what previuosly might have been considered "darlings" of the investment world, how many of those now depreciated assets are residing in our new state-owned banks?
I'm not trying to rub salt into open wounds, much, but the banking sector is still struggling, and all the bad news is not yet out of all the cupboards. I suspect that most governments all over the world have got bad news management departments, much like we have, and these boys are trying hide to find things to hide behind.
Come on El Gordo, bring your next rabbit out of the hat.
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Thanks for the interesting discussion about Mandelson, Osborne, Campbell, Rothschild and their various buddies on the yacht.
Isn't it itme to get down to the serious business about how deep this recession is going to be (now Gordon Brown has admitted there is going to be one); who contributed to the depths of our problems and who is best to get us out of it?
There are enormous questions for the UK economy that simply are not being asked of the current prime minister and chancellor.
How can it be prudent to nationalise a banking system that failed because of off balance sheet wholesale funding...and put the nationalised entities off balance sheet within the national finances?
You are repeating the error with public instead of private money.
This is an enormous problem to be paid for by our children.
National debt is 633 billion including Northern Rock.
It rises by another 500bn with the bailout of the banking sector.
Ad another 100 billion for PFI
Another 20 billion for Network Rail
30 bilion for Bradford an Bingley
and a whopping 1,100 billion for unfunded public sector pensions.
Gordon Brown's solution to all our problems has been to put out fire with gasoline and he's still doing it.
So the real national debt to GDP figure is more like 127 percent rather than the oft quoted 37 percent
When are the BBC going to get down and grill the prime minister about these serious matters that will affect our children'slives for decades to come?
The Argentinian market has just collapsed 15 percent because the government has seized the assets of the pension funds and declared that all pensions will henceforth be unfunded....is this seriously the way that the UK government is taking us?
Third world levels of debt, no savings, unfunded pensions...all for a bit off ideological dogma about doctors, nurses and teachers pay.
We urgently need an election. Call it.
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"342, How about a Tory political epitaph.
"whats good for me isnt necessarily good for you".
A return to Tory pork belly politics, IF they get in.
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#345
Great. Labour apologists find the words of Norman Tebbit, a man they reviled for over 30 years, might now be used against the tories.
It must stick in the throat though, mustn't it, to quote Lord Tebbit, who still has more integrity than some ennobled Labour apparatchiks I could name?
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Can Labour become the party that makes dreams happen?
No!
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342 T'uga Mawilli (aka Duoteste)
Ha! My suggestion for Gordon Brown's epitaph:
"My tax and spend policies are still hitting them beyond the grave"
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345:
It's an unfortunate fact that Norman Tebbitt no longer exerts much influence on either The General Public or The Conservative Party. That's why he was dragged out of bed to make this statement in order to justify the Media witch hunt which is now slowly subsiding because of a lack of any real evidence.
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#350
Well done TAG, just what we need, taking in hand and getting outside stimulation. This thread spends too much time on taking itself too seriously.
Personally, like you, I suspect, I'm amazed it got through, and also has not yet been referred. Time will tell.
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# 338 CEH
"Can Labour become the party that makes dreams happen?"
Depends on what you're dreaming about, I suppose:
A white Christmas?
World Peace?
An honest government?
No recession?
Hollywood stardom?
It's a bit like "Jerusalem", the answers to all these questions is "NO"
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Here's another political epitaph for El Gordo - "Gordon Brown - hes's touched us all, and we'll probably never get the money back".
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#339 Terry
Thanks for that.
The relevant part of the article is below:
The British Crime Survey (BCS), a poll of 40,000 people, is what Labour's propagandists trot out when under fire. The trouble is, the survey reads a bit like the report and accounts of an ethically challenged company: much inconvenient evidence is omitted
As the BBC's website helpfully explains: The BCS "does not record crimes which are serious but too small statistically to measure (such as murder and rape) or crimes committed against businesses (such as fraud or shoplifting) or against people under 16 (since it only surveys adults)
Ok.
Obviously murder cannot be included (it would be difficult for the victim to report this happening when questioned) and you will have to rely on the recorded crime figures for that.
Rape is included in the BCS measures (see section 3.5 of the report via the Home Office link I provided above).
Violent crime against businesses (which is what we are talking about) will be picked up by the statistics, as it is against the person and so would be told of during the BCS interview.
Violent crime against children will not be picked up, you are right about that.
BUT
This has always been the case in the BCS - excluding violent crime against children, violent crime has fallen by 40% since 1997. Maybe violent crime against children has 'filled the gap' in your view?
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#355 bluedefence
Nice try, but actually works both ways, of course.
How about "Gordon Brown's name will go down in history - it's on all the IOUs he keeps writing for future generations".
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Wakey wakey Nick, there's a lot happening, and none of it is to do with this non story.
How about this power station construction malarkey?
British power station being built in Britian by a french company, and none of the construction workers being hired are British.
Where are the buring sheep? Bet your life if this were on the other side of the channel you wouldn't be able to move for them.
Of course, that was another of El Gordo's sound bites - British jobs for British workers.
How can Campbell and Mandelson spin this one?
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298. , Grawth:
Yes the tax system needs an overhaul, but I would posit that the tax system is a minor player. Why? Well, why does the Government have to keep inventing new taxes and increasing others? To pay the ever increasing interest on the ever increasing debts.
If the banking system's flaw was fixed, then there would be no need to have so many taxes.
When the only way to pay off total debt owing is to create more debt, then that leads to the booms and collapses we saw in the 1930's and the current "cycle".
There is nothing accidentally cyclical about it. It is a deliberate flaw built into the financial system by design. The banks themselves create the "credit crunches" by refusing to issue loans.
When this happens, the older existing loans can no longer be fully serviced as the interest required to repay them in full has NEVER been created and put into circulation. The economy as a whole needs these new loans to so people can keep up payments covering the capital plus interest. When New loans are not created issuing new additional money into circulation, then people and businesses cannot help defaulting as there is literally not enough money in circulation to repay the loans issued plus the interest on them.
As a very oversimplified explanation of the current banking system follow along with this:
If I CREATE and lend out 100 purpleunits of currency to 10 people and ask for the total 1000 purpleunits loaned to be repaid plus 10 purpleunits each in interest, but I never create the extra 100 purpleunits that is the interest on these 10 loans, how can the total ever be repaid? Some of the ten will make a profit and repay me, but most of them will make a loss and need to borrow further purpleunits to be able to repay their loans. If I make further loans, then I create extra purpleunits, but again I do not create the purpleunits that would be paid in interest, then eventually people will lose out again and need more loans.
The system keeps growing, everyone has more and more purpleunits of currency. However, If I refuse to issue further loans, creating a credit crunch, then I get to take the collateral offered as security against the loan into my possession.
When I create this system I know in advance that there will NOT be enough of my purpleunits in circulation to repay all the loans. That way I guarantee that I will be able to take possesion of other people's property, businesses, farms etc... before I even start and for only the price of my purpleunits which I create out of thin air at the click of a mouse!!!
This system is a total and utter scam!.
The banks know this, which is why they are not lending anymore. They are hoarding the hundreds of billions that they are being given at the moment instead to protect their balance sheets. When people and businesses default, the banks take into their possession masses of tangible assets. It is a system designed to fail and move ownership of tangible assets to the banks in return for worthless fiat "money" created out of thin air and charged for at interest. It is a scam, it is THEFT and the sooner the whole crooked system collapses and it's authors are imprisoned the better!
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It is of course correct for the BBC to run this story, but they have become obsessed with it. I have just watched 'The Daily Politics' and Andrew Neil has run the story again, with nothing new to stay. Questions hostile to the Conservative Party were presented as statements of fact. Reference was made to politicians, yachts, and billionaires in the plural as thought this was systemic rather than isolated. References to Peter Mandelson were downplayed or ignored with the statement that 'we covered that yesterday'. My recollection is that most of yesterday was spent talking about George Osborne. I don't lightly say that the BBC is biased, but I think the weight of evidence in this particular case is that they are. It's actually shameful for a public sector broadcaster to find itself in this position.
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How about this one
Gordon Brown......because you voters are worthless, I mean worth it.
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how about:
"we sold off the utilities so our mates could get richer and now the oiks pay through the nose for gas/electric/water"………….a free market that we all pay for!
or
"we didnt want peace in Northern Ireland because we needed Unionist support to stay in government"
BTW, The daily politics show are doing a yachtgate special tomorrow, so it isnt under the carpet yet!
Thank you.
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John Lennon was a 'lazy scrounger', and the opportunities and time that gave him allowed him to develop and go on to be one of the most successful money spinning musicians in history.
Charlie Chaplain was brutalised and kicked around by poverty but his natural genius couldn't be contained, and after he took an opportunity to leave Britain and sieze on a once in a lifetime opportunity he went on to be an equally successful comedian.
Opportunity and liquidity are the foundations of success.
I have a list.
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#360
Actually, I am not at all surprised because I firmly believe that it is a very serious issue, and actually attempts to get people to discuss this aspect of our lives.We no longer live in Victorian Britain, we no longer get men to wear baggy clothing to hide their manhhod, men do learn to behave with decorum in our society. The same cannot be said of young boys, and adolescents. They have not yet mastered the techniques, which just seem to happen, nobody in my whole life has actually said to me 'control that erection Terry' nobody. I may be unusual but I don't think so. Am I strange, I leave that to you. It might be interesting to actually know exactly what the children are being 'taught' in these lessons.
We must try to remove all aspects of shame about our bodies, and our bodily functions.
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#369 bluedefence
Clutching at straws that are well past their sell by dates, not to mix up my metaphors too much.
How about - "Trust your government, we know where you live, or rather did know until we lost the discs"?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#370 Charles,
You miss my point (which was about politicians of all colours wanting to manage perceptions rather than facts)
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Dear Nick Robinson and the BBC,
Please,please, please can you get some better balance into your reporting of Tory?labour related stories.
You have continously reported negatively on George Osborne but barely a mention of Pete Mandelson. Yet who has done the greater overt wrong? Who has the current ability to be influenced in his Government and previously European decision making ?
Please can we have a fair and even handed reporting of these great and weighty matters.
Bellfoundry
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Oh, it's definitely a story.
300 people wouldn't have come onto this site and told us it isn't a story, if it weren't.
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Glad to see that a number of my posts which were referred by a certain gentleman we know only too well have been reinstated after The BBC deemed them to be relevant to the current discussion. Well done The Mods. My faith in justice has been restored!
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The most important question is why we aren't cracking down on unpleasant people like Nathaniel Rothschild, who should keep his nose out politics.
Just because he's inherited a vast fortune, and we shan't go into the details of how that fortune was arrived at here, does not give him a right to be involved in politics and make such threats.
He sounds like a very nasty individual.
If he does want to play politics, he should go and suck up to Gordon and get a peerage like Mandelson did.
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367:
I think it would be a good idea to flood The BBC switchboard with complaints about their continued obsessing with this whole affair in the face of plain facts. In spite of the rather pointed Press attacks on them this morning they still don't seem to get it! I'm willing to bet that one of the first questions on Question Time tonight will be about this very issue. I look forward with anticipation to the panel's reactions, particularly that of Jaccqui Smith who is Phil Woolas's late replacement. Could it be that this particular Minister was deemed to be the wrong man to deal with questions of Opposition incompetence after his recent gaffes?
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Eatonrifle @274,
To be honest, the only concerted (organised and orchestrated combined) effort that I've seen was a week or two ago when this blog was inundated by Draper Drones.
On BBC blogs it is relatively easy to identify 'drones': just check out their 'history'. A cluster of brand new commentators all singing from a similar hymn-sheet is a dead giveaway.
Funnily enough, they all seem to support Brown and Nu Labour.
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I've already contacted The BBC complaints department to register my disgust at what I consider to be blatant anti - George Osborne bias on their main News programmes. I must say the girl I spoke to at some length was extremely polite and promised to register my concerns with the appropriate programme makers. The main culprits in my opinion are The Main 6'oclock and late night news, Newsnight and The Daily Politics Show. The strident approach of Jeremy Paxman and Andrew Neill I found to be particularly unpleasant. Even individuals on here whose leanings are not normally Conservative have voiced their worries about BBC bias. Let's see what emerges later on tonight.
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316. sicilian29
"The double act of Frank Skinner and Gordon Brown yesterday typifies the desperation of this present administration".
Pay attention 29... It wasn't Frank Skinner (who is actually a proper comedian)!
Or Frank Field (a thoroughly decent MP) as you first suggested at comment 262 when you said "The fact that Frank Field was the lapdog used to introduce the claims during PMQs says it all really!"
It was DENNIS Skinner...the bitter bolshie from Bolsover - who in my opinion is neither like Frank Skinner or Frank Field
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Chuck E_H..... @370 wrote:
"John Lennon was a 'lazy scrounger'
While I'm no big fan of lennon (I think he's overrated - both as an artist and as a human being), I doubt whether he had much time to be a 'lazy scrounger': I'd say he was too busy forming and performing as part of a 'popular beat combo' in Liverpool, Hamburg, Britain and then the world.
As for the "natural genius" of Charlie Chaplin: well, he's another over-rated 'artist' whose sentimental and maudlin little 'tramp' character - in all its manifestations - leaves me cold (as do his saccharin musical compositions).
He was, however, a good businessman and fine self promoter - with an unsavoury penchant for underage girls and - like many champagne socialists - the Soviet Union and the communist party.
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382:
Thanks. I must be going senile. 3rd time lucky. Dennis Skinner of course.
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373 well Im back in the game, surprise surprise it's the moderaters this time strangely I dont remember saying anything to upset them but there you are its gone atleast I wont have to answer posts telling me how wrong I was, so on that note I'll close for tonight .
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# 376 has a point. If this is all the total non-story that the vast majority of the nearly 400 posts to date say it is why are we still dignifying it with our collective thoughts?
Can we not just agree that:
- George Osborne is a callow youth with poor judgement;
- Mandy is the second of these, though certainly not the first;
- If you sup with the Devil you need to take a long spoon;
- Robert Peston is great when he sticks to explaining esoterica to we dummies but he is not (a) on the BBC's political staff, and (b) not obliged to go around in blinkers;
- Nick Robinson is a top class political editor but needs to step back a bit and reflect on where his priorities lie.
Unless and until El Gordo demands an enquiry into Mandy's association with Russian oligarachs to parallel the one he wants into Osbourne (OK, Mandy was not a Labour minister at the time but Brown saw fit shortly afterwards to make him one) it is hard not to see this whole exercise as Nu Labuh suffering from the jitters. (Did anybody see Jacqui Smith cringe-inducing performance on the news tonight trying to explain away as "reclassification" the fact that a number of constabularies have fudged their crime figures that might have been embarassing to Labour's claims that serious crime had gone down.)
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Question why did Osborne take Feldman with him? Answer maybe: NR invites GO to visit yacht for a drink some one mentioned to him ( NR? ) that a donation might be in the offing. Osborne being thorough - thinks - better take a professional fund raiser who knows exactly all the rules etc and a person to discuss with in case it gets technical etc. Discussion about donation ensues from 3rd party, GO & AF think about it and decide even if from Uk company owned by OD - might not look good - thank you but no thank you - thanks for inviting us ..... see you NR back at the house... PM staying on yacht gets involved and now spins it 3 months later.
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You made your point well but it was a little too tightly focused to apply generally. I'm familiar with perspective and was leapfrogging your comment to make my own point. There is a certain irony in all this.
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371. T A Griffin (TAG) wrote:
#360
Actually, I am not at all surprised because I firmly believe that it is a very serious issue,
Like our old friend (TAG), I too believe sexual education is a serious issue. In fact I believe it to be so serious I would never trust any government agency or state run school to indoctrinate my children. Fortunately, my own chikdren are grown, as are my grandchildren, so it would be the unfortunate great-grandchildren who would fall into the grasps of today's educators.
Firstly, I do not believe the state schools have succeeded very well in teaching the3 Rs, so how can they be trusted with moral matters? Regarding moral matters, in my opinion very few of them have any. I am against, abortion except to save life or in case of rape. I don't believe in same-sex marriage nor the encouragement of that style of life. That means I would have to have my children (if I had them) sent either to a religious school of my faith or to a private school. If a religious school was not available and I couldn't afford private school fees, I would prefer to educate my children at home. Just considering the government officials and ministers, I shudder to think of them indoctrinating youth with their ideas. I read they had another data error, and sent children from the ages of 7 to 18 warnings on sexual diseases, and offered them free testing. It was later admitted that these letters, which were addressed to the pupils and sent to their homes weremeant for 18 to 24 year old young people. I rest my case!
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I cannot imagine that Conservative Central Office is a happy place in these times. If a donation from LDV would not be illegal, what is surely the embarrassment is the fact that the row is taking place at all: a very negative distraction from the policy platform, it suggests that the top of the party, clearly rattled and already failing to offer aggressive opposition, is complacent. A poster -forgive my non-attribution- has spoken favourably of David Davis. Best leader they never had in modern times . And the government makes the running on immigration.
Makes you think. Is Cameron in any danger? Is there blood in the water? Are there sharks about?
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This is probably too cynical, even for Mandy, but ... few people were present when Mandy "dripped poison" about Gordon Brown. Only those present could know it happened. Suppose some one knew that the host would be furious if one of his guests talked out of turn, but wanted to get another matter discussed, the alleged approach to Ivan for funds, out in the open. How better to acheive this than by starting a story aimed at Mandy... knowing the rest would come out and overshadow the original "Mandy dripped poison" story? The original story about Mandy could be a gambit, and given the history of relations between Mandy and GB, the equivalent of 'dog bites man'.
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Rothschild threatened to "destroy" Osborne.
Effectively, the threat alone will destroy Osborne, because it implies that there is "something" known somewhere which can do just that.
It is therefore only, really, a matter of time before someone - perhaps you, Nick - finds out what the "something" is...
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This story is fun.
Perhaps Goerge Osborne and Nat Rothschild should return to the Bullingdon Club and be held upside down by their 'friends' until they tell the whole story.
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The Indepent on Mandy this morning:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/a-final-favour-how-mandelsons-last-act-in-brussels-boosted-russian-oligarch-973813.html
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We have to support him for what he is doing. But government has to be open as to what it is doing without using off balance sheet transactions.
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So the Saga continues with the two targets now down to one , Mandleson. Nick , can you get permision to ask why David Cameron took a freebie to visit Rupert Murdochs Yacht. Or have you been instructed not to ask ?
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I am really saddened that the supposed unbiased BBC has a reporter who is clearly in the thrall of the Labour government. I watch as much of the news political reporting as I am able and I long for a balanced view from Robinson, but he seems to be in league with the diatribe that comes from Number 10. I accept that all MPs have their failings,because they like us,are human, but Robinson is so unbalanced in his reporting that it seems that all Labour personnel are praragons of virtue. Please Nick, cease to be dazzled by their glitz and glamour and report the balanced view.
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