Crucial duel
Glenrothes: The last ever duel in Scotland was fought a few miles from here in the aftermath of a financial crisis. A business man shot dead a banker after a row about a loan. One hundred and eighty two years later Glenrothes is the scene of a political duel between the leaders of Westminster and Scottish governments.
Not long ago no one doubted the outcome. Labour was expected to lose to the SNP like they did a couple of weeks ago in Glasgow East. What a difference an economic crisis has made.
Now some in Labour are daring to believe that they can retain this seat. Gordon Brown is now seen as an asset. The near collapse of Scotland's two major banks has raised real doubts about the capacity of this country to go it alone. Though the economic crisis is the backdrop against which this contest is being fought there is little evidence yet of its effect on this constituency.
The threat of job losses in the banks loom but unemployment for now remains low. The housing market is stagnant. But prices have fallen much less than in some other parts of the country. Thus the SNP's main focus is on the fuel bills which, it says, the London government should force energy companies to cut and the prescription charges and bridge tolls which the government in Edinburgh has cut.
Labour's response is to highlight the charges levied by an SNP controlled council which isn't to find money to freeze the council tax. The stakes of this contest can be shown by the fact that Alex Salmond has already made his ninth visit here and Gordon Brown who once insisted that prime ministers's don't do by-elections is about to make his third.
If Labour wins their victory will be hailed as evidence that Mr Brown has turned a political corner. If the SNP wins Mr Salmond will declare that he's proved wrong those who hailed the death of nationalism. It is a duel whose outcome will affect politics way beyond this part of Scotland.
PS. The facts about the last duel come from my colleague James Landale's book "The last duel".
(Note from BBC blog admin: an earlier version of this post was incompletely published owing to a technical error, this is the full version. Apologies for any confusion caused.)
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Have a feeling that Labour are going to just squeeze the win ...
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bbc blog
You might at least republish the comments previously made.
Otherwise I'll start thinking conspiracy!
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There is a young leader called Cam
Who doesn't, in truth, give a damn
Ahead in the polls
Due to bashing the proles
He's now in a bit of a jam!
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Brown crashed the economy and is now using his failure to beat up Scotland - "you need my billions to prop up your banks that I have ruined. You need me. You need me"
Scotland doesn't need Brown.
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Here are the previous posts
# 1. At 6:17pm on 30 Oct 2008, power_to_the_ppl
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# 2. At 6:25pm on 30 Oct 2008, JohnConstable wrote:
Yes, the outcome will ripple beyond the border.
We use that word 'border' without thinking but of course, when you do think about it, then borders delineate countries.
Salmond and the SNP will get there eventually, thus freeing us English too.
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# 3. At 6:26pm on 30 Oct 2008, power_to_the_ppl wrote:
The first post on two consecutive blogs... oooh yeeaahh.
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# 4. At 6:29pm on 30 Oct 2008, JohnConstable wrote:
Glenrothes, Fife, gud for business, gud for life.
Some may fondly remember that one.
Scots with whom I was working with at the time in England were pretty scathing about the accent.
But then native Scots can spot a fraud very easily, quite unlike us hapless English.
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# 5. At 6:31pm on 30 Oct 2008, oldnat wrote:
The result is likely to be close, whoever gets to waste their time sitting on Westminster's back-benches - the cushiest job in the world is to be an MP from Scotland, since most of the issues raised with English MPs are the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament.
Since the Tories only interest is whether they come 3rd or 4th, this by-election will not affect the politics of most of you on this blog.
The contest is primarily between those who have hope for a better future (sometimes seen through very rose-tinted glasses) - the SNP : and those who peddle fear, gloom and try to persuade the voters of their inadequacy - Labour.
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# 6. At 6:32pm on 30 Oct 2008, pattymkirkwood wrote:
Labour are truly desperate if they think wheeling out Alex Ferguson will help them win votes in Fife!
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# 7. At 6:35pm on 30 Oct 2008, power_to_the_ppl wrote:
The coming Nu-Labour defeat
Is going to be reeeaaaalllllyyyy sweet,
Much to Gordon's chagrin
He'll pay for his sin,
We've had enough Labour deceit!
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# 8. At 6:40pm on 30 Oct 2008, Thomas_Porter wrote:
The people of Glenrothes should keep in mind who has brought Britain to her knees. Gordon Brown, the Labour Party have practically tore Britain apart and we are sinking into debt that they appear unable to control.
The Labour Party, along with Gordon Brown have received a bounce by appearing to lead the way out of the economic crises. Don't forget who put us there, also do not forget who will be paying for their mistakes in the generations to come.
I hope the Scottish National Party win but the outcome remains uncertain. I would be pleased for the Conservatives to win Glenrothes rather then Labour...
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# 9. At 6:48pm on 30 Oct 2008, CarrotsneedaQUANGO2 wrote:
Oldnat... Close? do you really think so?
Come on Glenrothes, show Mr Brown what you really
What most of us think of him.
Spoil his week.
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# 10. At 6:52pm on 30 Oct 2008, kaybraes wrote:
1,3,7 ??? My, my, what have you been saying?? You've been lying low Nick , scared you get dragged into the Ross/ Brand saga ? At least it generated more enthusiasm than parliament does on most days. Here in Scotland we're just thankful for Billy Connely's command of the obscene language. It comes out somehow better from him than from the other two. Anyway , a lot of hot air is swirling round Glenrothes; to put it in context, this is probably one of Labour's safest strongholds, if they lose, in spite of what they say, it will be a disaster for Brown.If they win with anything less than a substantial majority, it will be a disaster for Brown. So to put it mildly the SNP are in a can't lose situation. Whatever happens, Brown's days are numbered anyway, he and his eyebrowed familiar are flailing around like the proverbial drowning men looking for a straw to cling on to, and with each passing day are getting further and further out of their depth. It is not now a case of whether he loses the next election, but by how much.
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# 11. At 6:58pm on 30 Oct 2008, DispairingWonderer wrote:
oldnat, though I won't deny that the tories and lib dems have very little/no chance, you must admit, it is votes for them that could quite easily and dramatically tip the balance one way or the other. Every little detail is counting in this election.
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# 12. At 6:59pm on 30 Oct 2008, power_to_the_ppl wrote:
If I lived in Glenrothes I'd keep a bucket of water (or something else) by the door just in case Broon turned up to canvass.
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# 13. At 7:00pm on 30 Oct 2008, DisgustedDorothy wrote:
Well if Labour lose they certainly won't be able to fault the media .
We are suffering from the usual bias and misreporting or "mis speaking"if you prefer from the media and its pundits, we even have William Hill used as a method of polling the views and voting intentions in Glenrothes.
We have article upon article glowing with praise for the Labour Party , we have football managers throwing their weight behind the PM, Scottish in nationality English in team.
I rather hoped the furore over the two unfunny juvenile delinquents on Radio 2 might make the BBC consider its position in the wider sense, like the impartial bit in its contract.
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# 14. At 7:02pm on 30 Oct 2008, oldnat wrote:
#9 Carrots
You need to understand that Labour dominated Scotland for 50 years.
Part of their system was always to persuade Scots that they were "victims" unable to stand up for themselves, and always dependent on the protection of others.
We've made huge progress away from that mindset, but large numbers of people have spent all their adult lives thinking that way.
Some who dared to hope will have gone back to the old way of thinking due to the propaganda in the current financial crisis.
We'll see how many on Nov 6.
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# 15. At 7:04pm on 30 Oct 2008, power_to_the_ppl wrote:
re: 10, kaybraes
1,3,7 ??? My, my, what have you been saying??
The truth kaybraes! Only Brown's Broadcasting Corporation and their biased news-drones don't like it...
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# 16. At 7:04pm on 30 Oct 2008, Brownedov wrote:
#5 oldnat
Surprised you didn't mention Cameron's pitch that of course Scotland could be successful if independent but would do better still in a Tory-led UK - a subliminal message to vote anything but NuLab.
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# 17. At 7:08pm on 30 Oct 2008, jonathan_cook wrote:
Labour has taken people and votes for granted in places like Glenrothes for years and done little to help people.
It is time to give Labour the kicking it richly deserves.
Come on SNP!!
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# 18. At 7:14pm on 30 Oct 2008, jonathan_cook wrote:
5 Oldnat
Has Brown had a bounce in the polls in Scotland - following his supposed economic leadership of the world?
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# 19. At 7:20pm on 30 Oct 2008, the-real-truth
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#1
I think the nature of the contest is such that the outcome is nigh unpredictable. That said, if Labour do win, it will certainly be squeezed unless they find yet another miracle.
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Labour are refusing to try and save Scottish banking jobs. This fact and other right wing policies (ID cards, Trident, middle eastern wars, workfare, student fees) should make people think carefully before voting Labour.
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#4
Well said!
It's Brown who needs scotland! What happens if it goes independant? A scottish prime minister in an english government?
Somehow i think not.
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the scotts have always had a strong nationalist streak. labour no longer exists it has been replaced by neu labour who are infact rebel tories who wanted power under there own name.
if labour wins this upcoming by-election sadly it will only show how gullable some people are.
if the scotish people want more independence then voting for any english party is an error they will have to live with.
so the prime minister was there to inflict his pressence on the public it makes me wonder when he was last in his constituancy?
i only hope he has the decency to stay away from this area during elections.
in many respects scotland deserves its independence and when its ready i hope they achieve it.
and i can only hope voters of that by-election vote in droves showing westminster its no longer wanted.
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@ 6
Yes, it looks like it's going to be very close - I'm going to predict a Labour win by about 1,200 votes. A victory for the SNP would be more exciting, of course, but in this case I think we are in for a disappointment.
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THE TRUTH ABOUT SCOTLAND
Sir,
The article "Salmond Slapped down by Norway Minister" in the Daily Mail on 29 October contained several incorrect and misleading statements attributed to Norway's Foreign Minister, Jonas Gahr Støre.
Firstly, there is no "growing anger in Norway" over comparisons made between Scotland and Norway during the debate in the United Kingdom against the backdrop of the current global financial crisis.
Secondly, no accusations have been made by Mr Støre against Mr Salmond, as alleged in the article. In the interview, the Foreign Minister merely pointed out factual similarities and differences between the challenges presently faced by Scotland and Norway. Inferring from this that Mr Støre is of the view that Mr Salmond has in any way lied or mislead the public, is simply incorrect.
In short, the Norwegian Foreign Minister did not intend to criticise either side in this debate, which is a domestic political discussion. What he strongly emphasised in the interview with the Daily Mail and which, sadly, was simply omitted from the article, was his sincere appreciation of the warm ongoing relationship between Scotland and Norway.
Yours sincerely,
Bjarne Lindstrøm
Ambassador of Norway
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original #18 jonathan_cook
I'd just posted a response when the techies screwed it up.
What I was saying was that "Brown bounce" s the wrong way to look at it up here.
We've only had one poll here since the financial crisis - Brownedov can give you the details.
However, during the summer when the English media were obsessing about Brown/Miliband/Cameron, Scots responses in the polls were much more pro Brown when "forced to choose" than in the English regions.
I think this might be because many SNP supporters would prefer "Brown to Home Counties types" as the lesser of 2 evils.
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Oh Purleease. We don't want Gordon's head to get any bigger than it is now. He already thinks he's saved the world and he can save Glenrothes too. I pray he doesn't.
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More Labour lies - they say the SNP run Council are charging people for alarms etc yet had the council remained Labour this charge would still have been imposed as it has in many other councils, Labour Liberal and SNP!
PS I wouldn't vote SNP on principle but if I lived in Glenrothes I would - just to help give McBroon a kicking!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"Now some in Labour are daring to believe that they can retain this seat. Gordon Brown is now seen as an asset. The near collapse of Scotland's two major banks has raised real doubts about the capacity of this country to go it alone. Though the economic crisis is the backdrop against which this contest is being fought there is little evidence yet of its effect on this constituency."
Is that the technical error your talking about? Don't remember that bit in the "incompletely published owing to a technical error" version.
Funny, a similar thing like that happened just the other day......
Labour, with over a 10,000 majority was expected to lose before GB's miraculous rescue of not only our economy, but also those of our european partners, leading the way for the rest of the world.
Who was in charge of our economy for the last decade again?
I sincerely hope the people of Glenrothes do not believe the labour spin that Scotland 'cannae go it alone' due to the banking crisis. Moreover, that they realise the handling of the economy has been dismal in the least, and that this highlights the need for fiscal autonomy.
The politics of fear and negativity can only last so long and will never prevail.
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Just had to repost this.
#258 Charles_E_Hardwidge
CEH: "Okay, back to you Eyebrows-sensei."
I guess that means something to you, but has no resonance for (or should that be with) me.
Alistair Darling. C'mon, loosen up a bit."
Sorry Charles, I was never educated at the private and expensive Loretto School. Guess you have to be "given" a very expensive private education to be a real "Labour" leader nowadays.
Surely even you can see the irony in that!
As I understand it, Darling (bearded then) was a supporter of the International Marxist Group, the British section of the Trotskyist Fourth International.
Plus ca change...
CEH: "Labour couldn't take on the City or magic new business out of thin air, and the anti-regulation and anti-micromanagement brigade in here would have a field day if they had tried it."
Labour never tried to take on the City. Blair was all over them like a rash. (Needing a well-paid exit route, which he seems to have achieved...)
Brown thought he showed "working class " independence by turning up to key City functions without wearing a penguin suit. If it that was that important, why did he change his kit when he'd become PM?
Brown made regulation lighter. Thatcher introduced the "Big Bang". But there were regulations. Brown relaxed the regulations. And had plenty of time to readjust if he felt it appropriate. He didn't impose adequate rules. If you work in the City and have a bunch of new limitations, you wouldn't be happy. But maybe millions of voters would have learned to appreciate a bit of control.
CEH: "Governments can't magic new business."
Don't care what wings they come from, there's no evidence that any government can create new business.
What they can do is create an environment within which people with innovative ideas can get traction. I just haven't seen much evidence of that.
CEH: "I see this slowdown as overdue and an opportunity. People can sieze that or fall back on failed patterns."
This slowdown has arrived like an out of control train at the buffers.
It didn't need to happen. Poor - actually catestrophic - failure of regulation allowed this.
Disaster always offers an opportunity.
Just can't see how a government that presided over the UK disaster believes it can simply turn a page and assume that everybody will believe that "all that stuff was yesterday, but we're here for tomorrow".
I don't have a lot of faith in any political party.
But I'd be happy to exile those who led us this far to Elba.
I've said before that getting it wrong shouldn't be assumed to be a sacking offence.
Ignoring the facts that you got it wrong should allow you to find a cardboard box to doss in somewhere and contemplate the misery you've inflicted on others.
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Welcome back Nick. I thought you were off investigating Lord Mandy's shenanigans. Oh well.
As for Glenrothes, I think it may have been decided in this evening's vote where Scottish Labour chose Westminster over Scottish interests, yet again. No doubt voters in Glenrothes took note.
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#11 VincentMcdee
Can you give the source for the letter from the Ambassador?
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The bust brought to Scotland by "An arc of stupidity":
Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath - Gordon Brown
Edinburgh South West - Alistair Darling
Normanton - Ed Balls
Will these people help Scotland escape the bust?
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RE Comment 4 from Jontahan_cook, Brown ruined the banks???? I dont think so. Greedy ( and sadly, mainly Scottish) bankers ruined the banks.
Bill McFadden
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#15 pttp
Never mind, my #5 saved all the lost comments for posterity - including your fanous "This comment has been referred to the moderators"
:-)
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Glenrothes is North of the boarder win or lose it'll make no difference to us, except give us earache one way or another this is just a by-election, we want a real one thats the one what counts.
It really would be interested to see what GB did if or when we dispatched him from Westminster, would he go running back to Scotland or stand to face the humiliation of being defeated at the first attempt, this guy never won an election as PM.
How many Labour seats are left in Scotland? One thing for sure I'm dreading the General election someday the debts will have to be paid back and with the declining industry and jobs taxes will surely have to rise - so much for relying on capitalism, housing and banks with a declining industry.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It seems a little perverse that Brown should campaign on the proposition that RBS and HBOS were failing, and the Scottish economy couldn't handle it, when total control over UK banking/finance houses was based in Westminster.
It's certainly surprising that Scot-based banks were so profligate in their financial affairs. I guess it's not just MPs or PMs who can have delusions of financial grandeur.
But rather odd that Brown seems to be saying, "look what a mess you've got yourselves into", when the same issue has affected banks across the UK. AND he keeps saying it's a global problem. So nothing he, the MSPs or anyone could have done about it.
For me, that's just wrong. The lack of proper regulation allowed companies to do some really stupid things.
THEY should have been aware and cautious.
WE could have expected a reasonable system of regulation to stop them just drifting into excesses.
I've no axe to grind about how the Scots vote.
It's as far away as Paris...
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#22
North though Glenrothes may be, this by-election represents a massive change in thinking throughout Britain, should the SNP win. If Labour win, it just as importantly shows that Brown has clawed back enough respect to actually win something.
More sensationally, should the SNP win, the chance of an England independant of Scotland, if you want to see it that way, becomes manifold more likely.
It affects you very much.
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re: 3, sagamix
There is a young leader called Cam
Who doesn't, in truth, give a damn
Ahead in the polls
Due to bashing the proles
He's now in a bit of a jam!
The reason that Cam is ahead
Is mostly 'cause Labour is dead:
Their tax is ill-gotten,
Their 'vision' is rotten,
We'd vote for a monkey instead!
And Labour's spying, and 42 days,
Have really weakened their case,
But I'll give Cam a go
'Cause at least that we know
That he'll get rid of that database!
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re: 22, oldnat
Thanks!
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21 Billmcfadden
Bill,
Take a look at this video - Brown is at fault for the bust. He could also have acted to stop the banks crash.
Brown could have saved the Scottish banks
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#21.
Billmcfadden.
"RE Comment 4 from Jontahan_cook, Brown ruined the banks???? I dont think so. Greedy ( and sadly, mainly Scottish) bankers ruined the banks."
Hello there, where have you been the past 11 years? Gordon Brown created the regulation for which the banks were suppose to obay... Brown was the reason British Banks were able to takes the risks that they did and Brown was the reason Britain has to bail out the banks once they lost. If Brown was not so greedy or at least unable to receive the taxes those bankers generated from their risks would he have allowed the bankers to take those risks in the first place?
Austraila has incredibly tough regulation which their banks have to follow. Who's laughing now?
By the way could you please provide evidence to support your statement that the majority of greedy bankers were Scottish? It sounds like you are attempting to shift the blame to a nationality...
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Nick
Saw you on BBC1 News escorting a frail old man around Glenrothes. Good to see you doing the Good Samaritan act/charity work. Dunno why it was on the TV news though. Anything to get out of the office I suppose.
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What's going on? Shuffling the cards?
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It'll be an ominous sign for the Tories and Englandshire if Labour wins the Glenrothes by-election; and I think they just might.
It'll teach the Tories a thing or two about creating some clear blue water between themselves and the Labour shambles. The Tories' preoccupation with trying to look like Labour-Lite whilst failing in its duty as Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition is now coming home to roost. It's about time the Tories came up with an alternative to the Labour government and told us all about it. Until then, they can forget being voted into power. We all may as well stay with the devil we know; god, did I just say that?
And I was once a Tory voter!!
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Here is a good question to ask Gordon on the Glenrothes campaign trail:
Can you add up Gordon?
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7. At 7:47pm on 30 Oct 2008, sandPerran wrote:
Labour are refusing to try and save Scottish banking jobs. This fact and other right wing policies (ID cards, Trident, middle eastern wars, workfare, student fees) should make people think carefully before voting Labour.
As oldnat will testify, I sit neutral here, so do not feel I am trying to defend Labour here.
However, people are quick to say let's scrap this and that without thinking of the LONG term consequences.
ID cards/wars - I'm in agreement they need scrapped
Trident - no, partly since you cannot predict world status in 10 or 20 years, plus you need to replace the many jobs reliant on Trident.
Student fees - look at just how many people go into further education, research what the cost would be to the taxpayer (already hefty) and then ask what are the tangible benefits and the cost effectiveness.
I disagree that Labour are using the HBOS for political purposes. This is a conspiracy theory. And HBOS also has English jobs at stake. If you were not aware, the H stands for Halifax.
Back to topic - the SNP have more to lose by not winning the seat than Gordon Brown has to lose should the SNP be victorious.
Alex Salmond is a competent politician, but he made - in my opinion - a huge mistake by using other small countries as examples of how successful Scotland can be - until Iceland blew it.
Tories? Might actually do relatively well.
Lib Dems - no hope I'm afraid. I think voters in general are realising that a vote for them means splitting either a labour or tory vote, depending on your preference.
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re: 33, moraymint
We all may as well stay with the devil we know; god, did I just say that?
Listen to yourself man! That's what they want you to think! What reason do Labour have to drop their rights-infringing schemes like ID cards if people just say what you said and vote for them anyway?
We must resist Nu-Stasi and their legislation-creep every step of the way! Be strong brother!
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33 Moraymint
"We all may as well stay with the devil we know; god, did I just say that?"
No way!
Remember two things (of many):
1. Iraq
2. The smashed British economy.
If you have the opportunity to vote in Glenrothes - do not be taken in by recent headlines spun by Mandelson and Campbell.
Brown and Labour need to be removed from office.
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Gordon Brown couldn't shake the Scottish dust from his heels fast enough when he headed south to forward his career and I have no doubt at all that when he gets tossed out of his current job with his own fat pension in tact having ruined the rest of us, he will be looking to Europe or Cape Cod to enhance his earnings not Fife. He signed up to devolution (only brought in to stymie the Nats) he has shown arrogance and scant respect for the Scottish Parliament which, under Alex Salmond has opened so many eyes to much more favourable opportunities for the Scottish people.
Some may give Gordon Brown credit for his handling of the current crisis but i'm not one of them. I hold him personally responsible for the mess we are now. And his hatred of the SNP is visceral to the point that I don't trust him to put Scotland's interests before his own in this crisis. His appalling stewardship which has wrecked the Uk economy for goodness knows how many years to come borders on the criminal.
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#35
I disagree. Much of what you said was very much opinionated, there are two equally valid sides to most of those arguments and you have simply picked one.
The fact, in addition, that Alex Salmond can enact these, admittedly expensive, measures with the scottish population loving him more by the second for it is a testement to his more than mere "competence" as a politician.
As for HBOS, Gordon Brown is a fool if he ISN'T thinking of it as a political opportunity! If he backs down, it could result in another 10p tax thing anyway, so politics is therefore heavily influencing his decisions. He regains yet again a little more prestige by solving a problem on this scale, as I said, it would be insane not to think of it as such.
We shall see about the tories, Goldie hasn't been quite as vocal as some of her fellow leaders, but that may pay off...
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Nick,
is Scotland a country, simple question, simple answer, of course it is.
Is America a country, another simple question, another simple answer, of course it is.
Now then, the British government tells us constantly that whoever is victorious in the American election is actually none of our business. We will do business and work together with whosever is elected.
So, what business is it of Gordon Brown, who is the unelected Prime Minister, who took over as a result of a coup, to get involved in the election of any foreign country.
Basically, he and his wife should have kept out of the whole business. Mind you he was the chancellor who paid for the war which was a war of agression against a sovereign nation state, where the President of the defeated country was eventually executed by hanging.
In the meantime America sends its Special Forces into Syria, America flies Drones into Pakistan and kills families, oh, and Turkey is able to take action against a sovereign democratic nation state, where our forces are stationed, to protect its interests. Oh, that's right it was Iraq again. As in America when it comes down to it, it is this awful war that will prove the undoing of labour. It's not the economy, it's the war and how will Brown explain the defeat of our forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. We've lost, plain and simple, all the money has been wasted, all the lives have been for nothing, and it was all done in our name.
That is why the Scottish people must throw this awful government out. You can do it, please. Oh, anybody seen any Russian oligarchs in yachts lately.
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#2 oldnat
I've seen it happen once before on the NR threads, but then they posted two identically named threads.
#5 oldnat
Many thanks for the breakdown recovery services.
#12 oldnat
Fewer thanks for unauthorised offering of my psephological services. FWIW, the only recent poll is the last weekend's YouGov polls, see #116 et seq on Brian Taylor's Silencing the analysts thread. I repeat my main post below with references to the thread linked to.
My own take on Glenrothes is that voters are much more likely to play it in line with the SP plurality seats, where the changes since 2007 are Lab +13.03%, SNP +38.57%, LibDem -11.29%, Con -3.09%, Other +55.94%.
Applying that to the Glenrothes boundaries, and the 48% turnout which I've predicted before as the likely maximum, that would double the SNP's notional majority from 2007 to about 1,800.
OTOH, if the seat really is seen as make or break for the Government, it would be more likely to play in line with Westminster voting intention, in which case the changes since 2005 are Lab -2.50%, SNP +66.44%, Con +23.84%, LibDem -52.27%, Other -54.08%.
Applying that to Glenrothes, with the same 48% turnout, that would be enough for Labour to hang on to the seat by over 3,000 votes.
In both cases, if there is no substantial squeeze effect, the Tories and LibDems would save their deposits.
As well as squeeze effects, the above ignores all the other by-election factors which almost always punish an incumbent government, so I do think there's still all to play for. I'm also rather with Neil_Small147's #119 that Mandelson's return to the front pages will not be an unalloyed asset and sneckedagain's #123 that polling may have ended at the same time as any Brown "bounce".
Overall, I'm in agreement with oldnat's #118 that the SNP should be cautiously optimistic.
I'd also recommend a look at Guido's Glenrothes: Punters V Pundits, Round II.
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#18 warblers
"As for Glenrothes, I think it may have been decided in this evening's vote where Scottish Labour chose Westminster over Scottish interests, yet again. No doubt voters in Glenrothes took note."
Spot on, and no doubt both the LibDems (it was their leader who tabled the motion) and the SNP will be doing their best to make sure they're aware of it as well as "Duff" Gordon's denial and Capt. Darling's dithering.
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Nick,
there must be an inquiry, a public one at that, into what has been going on with respect to the Scottish banks which hit trouble, namely the Royal Bank of Scotland, and the Bank of Scotland. I know that they are part of larger groups but there is something not quite right. I smell rotten fish somewhere.
Funny how they have been baled out and there is all the media attention on them , just as a bye-election is being held. Is this not another example of Pork Barrel Politics.
I regard Gordon Brown as a one trick poney, but my main concern at the moment is the evidence being brought to the de Menezas inquest, I am becoming very concerned.
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42 Brownedov
What vote is happening tonight?
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I truly hope the people of Glenrothes aren't the fools that the government takes them for and they take this opportunity to give Gordon a good kicking.
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Thank God I am old. I will soon quit this mortal coil, and it will go to hell without my help or intervention.
SNP ? Fools, all of you. Politically inept, financially corrupt, morally broken, socially unacceptable, lacking intelligence, needing attention from Weight-watches (r). Salmon, filleted, deboned, skinned, out of sell by date, finished.
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I think as a neutral in this debate that it is fairly obvious the SNP are the party with the momentum in Scotland vs Labour. Despite Gordon Brown's supposed bounce due to the perception that he has waved the magic 'wad' over the financial crisis and bailed us out, he has in fact done nothing of the sort and has committed the country to another round of spiraling spend creating more debt. He blames the banks for over extending themselves in areas of lending or leverage, i would like to know why he has used the country the same way, he has allowed an extraordinary amount of household and government debt to be accumulated under the pretense that it is still less than our peer countries. So we are the 'keep up with the Jone's' fiscal policy followers. Didn't Keynes suggest that we should put money aside in the good years so we can survive the bad years, this recession is inevitable we had the opportunity to get through it by a responsible budgets in previous years, if Scottish Banks are in difficulty its no fault of the SNP.
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#44 jonathan_cook
If Brownedov doesn't mind me taking the ball back .....
The vote took place earlier today in the Scottish Parliament concerning HBOS (the Scottish Parliament works less anti-social hours as it has fewer members making loadsa money in the courts and boardrooms than Westminster).
You can see how it works in Scottish politics (they really are different from yours) on Brian Taylor's blog - Strict Neutrality
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18. warblers
"Welcome back Nick. I thought you were off investigating Lord Mandy's shenanigans. Oh well"
Hmm. I thought Nick might be composing his apology to Osborne - having pilloried him all last week for doing nothing wrong!
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#4 and #7
Where as yes Gordon Brown is very very much responsible for some of the problems we face. I am affraid you can't pass the buck that HBOS made a number of very very serious errors in concern to its business.
And also, as a side from posts on the similar blog around HBOS on the Scottish political blog. The H in HBOS stands for Halifax. What about protecting English and Scottish Banking Jobs affected by this crisis happening to an English and Scottish bank?
For me it getting rediculous. I wonder if people care about the lives of workers and indeed customers of this institution or is it just another reason to have the whole England/Scotland rar rar rar debate which really is terribly dull in the modern age. Jobs and communities are going to be affected both sides of the border, it about time people started thinking about both, and not just attaching their colours to their own backyard flagpole.
But anyway, Mr Brown has his chance to get us out of this mess he made and to be honest, for me he not doing too bad.
That's it from me, and my wee campaign to put the H.. Back in HBOS..
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#44 jonathan_cook
"What vote is happening tonight?"
A Holyrood motion re HBOS - see this website's MSPs warn against bank takeover.
Won by 61 (LibDems, SNP, etc.) to 40 (NuLan, Tory)
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#47 jovialwhetherornot
An interesting way to describe a third of the Scottish electorate - and that, dear English readers, is why Labour will lose Scotland .Complain about this comment
Dear Readers,
'Don't often post here, however, felt compelled to make some contribution in these strangest of times....
Given the facts of: -
a) the resignation of the Controller of Radio 2;
b) the 12-week suspension of one of the BBC's 'biggest acts' (don't watch the show personally), and;
c) the departure of one of the station's stable of alternative comedians,
only one question remains in my mind: by what means can we possibly bring popular pressure to bear against the present most undemocratic of UK Governments ?
It would appear that more people feel more strongly about Russell Brand's excesses than the total of votes that will probably be cast in the forthcoming Glenrothes By-election !
So how does one register a complaint ?
A view often expressed around these parts (Fife) is that GB plc represents little but a politically misguided, totalitarian-tending waste of everyone's time & patience.
Please follow-up this post with 30,000+ complaints to some institution or other.... you know it's your duty.
Best Wishes.
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#40 T A Griffin (TAG) wrote:
"Nick,
is Scotland a country, simple question, simple answer, of course it is.
Is America a country, another simple question, another simple answer, of course it is."
Sorry TAG, America is not a country. It's a continent.
The USA is a country within the North American continent. It has many states having varying legal systems, tied together within the framework of a central Bill of Rights.
Scotland is a country (like Wales and England) that lives within the UK structure.
The first head of the England/Wales and Scotland union was a Scot.
The Act of Union was partly driven because the Scots messed up their finances and a bit of slippery money from the English won their hearts...
I don't really care who wins a Westminster seat in Scotland. Whoever is elected will not be able to represent his/her electorate on key matters which they'll be allowed to vote on for the "non-Scottish" parts of the Union.
So, in a way, I'd prefer it to be someone who won't bother to come south and claim "second home allowances".
The US War of Independence had a snappy catch phrase. "No taxation without representation". Sounds like a good idea to me. If George III had a bit of sense, he'd have done a deal.
In our Union, I'd like "No representation without suffering the same taxation consequences as every other MP".
That would mean that Scot MPs wouldn't be able to vote for University fees for the English, while their constituents get free access (because MPs have absolutely no influence on such matters for their constituents).
The West Lothian question hasn't been answered - or even addressed - by the party who gave the Scots a degree of self-governance...
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#47 jovialwhetherornot
It's obviously being so cheerful that keeps you going.
Many, perhaps most Scots have crticisms of him - I certainly do - but at least he's pro-Scotland, which is a lot more than you can say of any NuLab apparatchik from "Duff" Gordon down.
At least Cameron - doubtless properly educated by Aunty Annabel - has realised that dissing Scotland is no longer a winning strategy there.
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Smart kid.
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My #54 was referred.
I quoted the words of #47 jovialwhetherornot
and added the following - "An interesting way to describe a third of the Scottish electorate - and that, dear English readers, is why Labour will lose Scotland ."
A strange referral!
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Just a little point that should be noted. HBOS is most certainly not a Scottish bank . It is a large English bank with a smallish Scottish arm. Halifax is by far rhe biggest bit of HBOS and the BOS died when Halifax swallowed it.
What we have had is a cosmetic appearance of a big building in Edinburgh with all real decision making in Yorkshire. What we should be striving for is letting Halifax (which carries the toxic debt)be swallowed by Lloyds and BOS be set free and re-established as a Scottish institution.
Brown /Darling are in a lose/lose situation on this one but it may take soemtime to pan out.
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The media and the Scottish media in particular is disgracing itself in this by-election. It is determined to save Brown at Glenrothes.
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Nick, you say:
Not long ago no one doubted the outcome. Labour was expected to lose to the SNP like they did a couple of weeks ago in Glasgow East.
What's going on Nick? Surely your sense of time can't be as skewed as your political judgment?
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#58 power_to_the_ppl
Judging by the youth of "Duff" Gordon in the pic, perhaps that was young William Hague receiving the impetus to make his famous speech at the next Tory conference.
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#62 pttp
Nick is a UK political correspondent. He seems to be quite good on their political issues, but he is woefully weak on the different Scottish system.
It's not just his lack of understanding of time (good point, I hadn't noticed his slip), but that only the more extreme SNP people thought Glenrothes would be easy.
Glasgow East and Glenrothes are very different constituencies, and only commentators from outside imagine that "Scottish" seats are necessarily similar.
In Glenrothes, the significant move for the SNP from being behind Labour to (marginally) ahead took place by 2007. In Glasgow, the shift didn't take place till 2008, and is not yet embedded.
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The fascinating contest in Glenrothes is between a huge, energetic SNP machine flooding the constituency with determined workers and a pathetic Labour effort relying, as it did in Glasgow East, on workers imported from South of the border.
The difference this time is that the whole media is tring to give Glenrothes to Brown and we have huge media coverage of stunts from Labour like flying visits by GB's wife and carefull controlled cameos of Brown meeting carefully chosen Labour supporters for a few minutes.
I suspect the media is underestimating the intelligence of the Scottish electorate who are always very quick to realise when they are having their plonkers pulled.
Listrening to Nick Robinson on BBC news tonight indicated he has swallowed the spin as well.
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Something that may be a key issue in Glenrothes but hasn't been mentioned on this thread as yet is Local Income Tax.
The SNP Scottish Government want to use their devolved power to vary income tax by 3 pence in the GBP to scrap residential council tax. This is popular according to the opinion polls as most will pay less and supported with reservations and differences by the LibDems who want LIT for the UK - see their Axe the Tax. NuLab and the official Tories oppose it vehemently.
Many in Scotland wonder if the vehemence of the arch-unionists is because they're concerned that it would be both popular and successful, leading to their "core vote" in England clamouring for it to the dismay of their paymasters.
What do residents of England think?
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#67 Brownedov
Judging by the postings on this thread, it seems there are few Brits left.
It is essentially an English blog. They have their own dynamic, and good luck to them.
I wonder if "British" Labour understand how irrelevant their belief system has become within their "United" Kingdom.
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39. At 9:23pm on 30 Oct 2008, DispairingWonderer wrote:
The fact, in addition, that Alex Salmond can enact these, admittedly expensive, measures with the scottish population loving him more by the second for it is a testement to his more than mere "competence" as a politician.
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Alex Salmond is not "loved" by the whole of the Scottish population. He is viewed by many as being smug, although with the woeful opposition we have up here he's every right to be I suppose.
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#68 oldnat
You're right and as there are no takers yet for the invitation in #67, I think I'll call it a night soon.
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#60 sneckedagain wrote:
"Just a little point that should be noted. HBOS is most certainly not a Scottish bank . It is a large English bank with a smallish Scottish arm. Halifax is by far rhe biggest bit of HBOS and the BOS died when Halifax swallowed it."
I understand that one key aspect of BoS didn't die when it was gobbled up by Halifax. That's to say it's role as the only authorised issuer of Scottish banknotes.
It still surprises me to realise that the BoE was allowed to be created as an organisation which would support English government enterprises - and was never a real player in the commercial market - while the BoS was deliberately prohibited from being simply a "government bank".
I've never really understood why any organisation should be allowed to "print money" unless they hold tangible assets to fulfill the promises printed on the banknotes.
In England, that says "I promise to pay the bearer on demand, the sum of XXX".
But it really doesn't mean anything.
If BOS could be self-sufficient, were it not part of the HBOS, I'd be happy to see a dissolution of that marriage.
And see Halifax deal directly with the UK government to work out what it needs to become a proper business again.
Not so sure about RBS. Their problems seem to have been based on high-risk, over-priced international expansion. Thank goodness it was run by Scots, so we southerners don't get to share the blame - only the support costs.
"Brown /Darling are in a lose/lose situation on this one but it may take soemtime to pan out."
We're all in a lose/lose situation... Just can't believe it has been a Scottish non- economist who brought all of us to this point.
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I very much like your Blogs on UK Politics Nick,but I think you need to do a lot of research on Scotland's.Absolutely nobody is predicting the death of Nationalism,.Not only is the SNP in power,but the Salmond Government is hugely popular,if that were not the case we would not be discussing the possibility of Labour losing this Seat.
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Ah, print money, great idea, the IMF and all leading G8 conuntries should consider new monies to stabilise this situation and of course they could recoup it over the next 100 years or so.
Its only money, they could easily print new wealth.
Yes great idea!
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Headline TV news today - the BBC is consumed by interest in itself - Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand. Oh yes - and of course - they getting all excited about an election (no - not that Scottish one!) Obama (of course).
The economy here is nose diving and there are going to be voters casting opinions on the government's performance. Yet - we have silence on the government and Glenrothes.
Posters above state the media want to retain Labour.
As for the BBC itself it is not difficult to conclude that the BBC (SL-Auntie??) is biased against the SNP.
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ppl @ 27
A bit like Duelling Banjos, aren't we? - or perhaps not since people will be relieved to know that that was probably my one and only.
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Nick,
the famous unknown moderaters may decide that this one is inappropriate for your blog but I think not. I am studying Philosophy, Politics and Economics as well as having worked in the financial industry for over forty years.
What is my point. The government is having to borrow huge sums of money, they have in the past and they will in the future. How do they fund this, through Gilts as much as anything else.
One of these is Treasury 8% 2021, currently priced at 132.02. What does this mean to the man in the street, it means that you buy this at the current price and that in the year 2021 the government promises to redeem the stock at 100.00, or par. Yes folks, you can buy something in the market where the governmnet promises to give you 32.02 pounds less than what you paid for it. Now that is a really good deal.
One, you don't actually get 8% per year in interest, because tax is deducted and the real irony is that you can't even offset your guaranteed losses against Capital Gains Tax liability against gains on other investments.
Nick, this is a cruel duel, where there is only one winner and it is not the taxpaying public who will be left standing. It is knowledge which needs to be spread, not tittle tattle, but knowledge. Not whistleblowing, but information, transparency if you like.
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#78 TAG
I've just read your post.
I am sure what you say is true but it's hard to believe that the Government can get away with hoodwinking the public like this. If they expect other financial institutions to be transparent and they are not, surely this amounts to sharp practice.
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Britain is better off without Nu Labour
And England is better off without Scotland
Therefore the more Scottish nationalist victories the better
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Dead cat bounce. Taxi for Brown.
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So what will happen when blustering Brown collides with irrelevant Salmond? Hopefully they will both vanish in a puff of smoke.
Both are products of a political culture which has long ago failed to connect with reality. I call it Blairite politics.
As the poet Adrian Mitchell once put it:
`If you see a chair
And the chairs's not there
That's a Blair.'
Scotland can no more be an independent country as England could recover its empire. This is fools living in a glorious past now long gone.
In times like these we need each other and have to cleave to what we hold in common and not pick at the things that make us different.
I hope the electorate of Glenrothes votes other than SNP or Labour as neither of these parties has a clue as to what is going on.
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Brown - ditching all previous convictions that 'Prime Ministers don't do by elections' - has already visited this hitherto virtually unknown constituency three times.
Nu Labour are poring all their resources into securing this seat (the only thing they haven't yet tried is to call the SNP candidate a 'toff' - but they probably will...
Now, as a result of all this Nu-Labour may - just may - retain a seat it holds with an over 10,000 majority.
And this is supposed to be an indicator of success?
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"Gordon Brown is now seen as an asset. The near collapse of Scotland's two major banks has raised real doubts about the capacity of this country to go it alone."
Hang on Nick, Gordon Brown was in charge of regulating the banks that nearly collapsed; if scotland was independent then they could have controlled their own banks' regulation and done a proper job.
How can Gordon Brown who basically caused the collapse of the scottish banks be regarded as an asset?
He personally caused not only the banking meltdown, but also the recession, by a combination of not bothering to regulate and allowing public/private debt to balloon, how on earth can he be regarded as the saviour when he's the architect of all the problems that we have?
I still fail to understand how the BBC can continue to spout the labour line that Gordon Brown has no responsibility for anything bad that's happened yet is somehow responsible for saving the planet.
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A week or so ago the BBC had a "credit crunch trial" on newsnight.
Sadly, when it got to the prosecution case against the government, the BBC switched off the signal to Scotland and they had to watch something else instead.
'nuff said.
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Nick
You miss a rather important point.
Voting SNP is not a vote for independance; rather it is a vote for a referendum on independance.
Even if somone does not want independance, but supports the SNP sticking up for the scottish people they can still get what they want by voting SNP and then 'no' in any referendum on independance.
My money is on the SNP. The only thing that may put off some voters is the thought that this may be the fist step to getting all their MP's repatriated from wesminster, I understand that they don't want them either.
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re: 75 T A Griffin (TAG)
There is an alternative but using the same kind of arguments.
The freedom of the BBC is indeed non-existent because it's funded by the tax-payer, so it's basically a government tool. They're naturally left-wing at the BBC so under a labour government the bias becomes even worse than under a tory government.
However, the solution, rather than trying to separate it technically from the government via more laws etc (ie to stop pressure from government), is to commercialise it entirely, so that it's no longer dependent on government; it thereby gains 100% freedom.
Privatise the BBC; that's the only way it's going to survive in the long term; people won't stomach a tax-payer funded tv organisation any more; the BBC's public status is, I think, going to come to an end fairly soon (at least I hope so).
That way they get all the freedom they want, they can be as biased as they want politically without getting scorn from tax-payers, and nobody has to pay 150 quid a year to not watch it. That is the only long term workable solution.
Why are we still paying 150 quid a year just so that they don't have to have adverts on the telly? I think it's doomed.
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Oh yes... my comment that got lost on the fist post... started a bit like...
-
As Brown has broken all his rules now - golden and about campaigning at by-elections...
Can we take it as read that Gordon sees this as a confidence vote in himself - and on that basis agree, now, that if Labour lose then Gordon must go?
It would be a shame for mandleson not to get another chance to resign for breaking the ministerial code.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Mandleson clearly has broken the code by refusing to answer questions about Oleg -- this certainly contravenes the rule on 'openess' on the final page...
Go on Nick -- take him down.
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#81
Since when have I ever caused anybody 'faintly autistic' never, so do not even try going there.
Now I have referred Gordon Brown as a nose picking Aspidistra. Quote me on that if you like but never accuse me of using the term 'faintly autistic'.
Now I know you never actually say it was me but anybody reading your comment would assume that it was, many others have tried but failed, Project Griffin does not sleep.
In the meantime continue to listen to the de Menezes inquest.
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This is a summary of an interview on Radio 5 Live Breakfast Show by Nicky Campbell interviewing Paul Gambaccini. Paul was very careful about what he said, but indicated that journalists ought to have investigated the background of what was going on in Radio 2 with more vigour.
At the end of the interview, Nicky sounded very chastened - when someone with the stature of Paul speaks the radio community listens.
http://my.telegraph.co.uk/cropper/blog/2008/10/31/paul_gambaccini_tells_it_as_it_is
I have searched the internet but a full transcript is not available - yet?
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Are the voters in Glenrothes going to vote on Scottish isses or National issues? If National I believe NuLab will retain the seat.
The poll in today's Torygraph shows that the Brown bounce continues - Conservative lead now single digit.
The reason for the Brown bounce seems fairly clear to me - if you are in a boat that's holed your instinct is to bale out, not argue over who steered the boat into the rocks.
Everyone is busy baling out at the moment, and this is benefiting Brown because the Conservatives don't appear to have any buckets.
Cameron needs to up his game and that means bringing some big hitters into his Shadow Cabinet and losing the lightweights.
To continue the analogy beyond its death - once the boat reaches the shore, then will be the time to argue about whose hand was on the tiller. That's why I believe we will have a UK poll first half of next year - before we reach shore!
Why is this relevant to Glenrothes?
Because I believe the national situation and the need to manage the recovery will influence the voters in Glenrothes.
I'd love to see Brown get blooded again, but I'm with Saga etc regarding the likely outcome.
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oldnat @ 68 etc.
The London based media do seem to have a lot of issues with what is going on in Scotland.
They really do not seem to have the knowledge of local nuances - fortunately, you have your own excellent Brian Taylor.
You state that ... I wonder if "British" Labour understand how irrelevant their belief system has become within their "United" Kingdom.
I am certain that these 'British' politicians (Labour, Tory and Lib-Dem) are fully appraised as to the seriousness of the threat to the political so-called United Kingdom.
Indeed, that concern is at the root of the Barnett formula all those decades ago, as a device to forestall the break-up of the UK.
However, time has moved on and the Scots now genuinely seem to have a taste for real political freedom, quite unlike my apathetic English compatriots.
In my opinion, the 'United Kingdom' is, in effect, a zombie political entity which simply plods on because of political interia and a staggering apathy by its largest constituent - my fellow English people.
So, it has come to pass that we English have to rely on the native Scots, via the SNP, to act as a catalyst for our own political freedom.
I for one, am extremely grateful to the Scottish people for this.
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#81 balhamu
"Anyone who calls the President of the US a 'retarded cowboy' is a disgrace
Yes. But calling the Prime Minister of the UK 'faintly autistic' is just fine isn't it?"
Both are perfectly reasonable. Whether you find them funny or not is a matter for you. But it's completely beside the point on the Ross / Brand issue. The abusive calls were actionable under existing law, yet broadcast on state radio.
It is for that reason that both should never again be broadcast by the BBC and that the producer who broadcast it should receive a severe reprimand at the very least.
But this is way off-topic - I'd be surprised if there's mileage for any of the parties with it at Glenrothes.
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#86 stanilic
"Scotland can no more be an independent country as England could recover its empire. This is fools living in a glorious past now long gone."
Following Cameron's conersion to realism by Aunty Annabel, NuLab are the only one of the four major parties in Scotland peddling that line.
You also ignore the fact that the UK were signatories of the UN charter which gives the right of self-determination of the peoples, and both NuLab and the Tories were only too keen to apply it over Kosovo. The fact is that whether Scotland dissolves the Act of Union or not is in the hands of the Scottish people.
If you want the current constitutional arrangements to continue, you should hold your nose and hope that the electorate of Glenrothes are stupid enough to stick with NuLab.
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#92
Of course the bankers would prefer to have anybody other than the British government running their affairs.
Try this for size. If I wanted to destroy something and I had access to unlimited funds then I would lend them money. No problem. Because at the end of the day there is a famous quotation, 'he who pays the piper calls the tune' a good Scottish quote but there are no tunes of glory being played today.
I suggest that people obtain a copy of 'The Prince' written by Machiavelli but not published until after his death. An awful lot of people refer to Machiavelli without having read the book, same with Hitler and Mein Kampf and Nietzsche and his writings, these policians have, so be afraid, very afraid, Project Griffin continues.
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Having had a quick scan of this mornings posts...
Yes - it does seem surreal the situation we are in. To paraphrase:
"Brown lauded as an asset"
"A 10,000 majority, yet a minor win by Labour will be seen as a turn around victory and success"
"Labour haven't resorted to calling the SNP toff's yet" (Maybe they will be branded as 'Lairds'?)
"BBC is critiquing the election with a positive Labour spin"
"Labour are flooding Glenrothes with people from south of the border".
One thing I've noticed, is that the majority of the debate on here and also in the media is conducted by people in England.
I'm not sure we are getting an balanced assessment of what is happening on the ground in Scotland, from people who are knowledgable about Scottish politics.
Some of the comments from Oldnat and Browndov are interesting - but surely the BBC should be able to swamp us with data and information regarding the political situation in Scotland?
If I had to put stake my money on who will win Glenrothes, I would find it hard to guess (and it would be a guess). Oldnat and Browndove have given me an insight there are different things in play up there.
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Referred to the mods again....
Does someone not like me suggesting that brown has made this a 'vote of no confidence' in him and he should go if labour lose?
Or was it that I said if labour do go, it will be a shame that mandleson won't get the chance to resign again - he has clearly breached the ministerial code - last page refers to 'openness' - mandleson refusing to comment is clearly not 'open.'
http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/propriety_and_ethics/ministers/ministerial_code.aspx
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#90 getridofgordonnow
"He personally caused not only the banking meltdown, but also the recession, by a combination of not bothering to regulate and allowing public/private debt to balloon, how on earth can he be regarded as the saviour when he's the architect of all the problems that we have?"
Well said. I think that the problem for NuLab is that they stole so many of the Tories' clothes without developing the competency to do it properly or shed their old Labour authoritarianism.
As Scotland feels it had too large a dose of the real thing under Thatcher and don't like the authoritarianism either, NuLab are very much on the way downhill in Scotland. Whether they're out or not in Glenrothes may be a close-run thing, but the trend is definitively not in their favour. OTOH, England seems to like the Tories but are beginning to spot the flaws in the ersatz, NuLab version. It's bound to make for "interesting times" after the general election.
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#105
I do not think that it is off topic at all. There is a bgger game here than you seem to realise. Censorship works in many different ways, we are now being told effectively that there should be more 'self-censorship' in other words do not actually say what you think. I do not know what others think, that is unless they tell me what they think.
As Descartes would say, 'I think therefore I am', putting down our thoughts onto the internet is a form of free speech, be afraid, 'they' want to take this from you. If the good people of Glenrothes do not understand this then we need to ensure that they do become aware, I still like to consider that not everybody is in slumberland.
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Is the one trick phoney which is Gordon Brown not aware as to what is going on in DR Congo. we have has Rwanda, a disgrace, it was a crime against humanity. Brown must speak out, he has gone silent on Dafur, he is the Prime Minister not the Chancellor, or can he only handle one thing at a time.
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Is the BBC now practising censorship against those who have accused it of political bias? Other posts that I have attemoted to make this morning have failed to materialise on this blog. Wonder if that has anything to do with my complaint about the Osborne witch-hunt?
If this one gets through, I'll try the post again...
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TAG #103
"I will never forgive the media, yes all the British media for their silence over Harry in Afghanistan."
This was one rare instance in which the media made my heart warm.
I don't quite know why you think you're entitled to know the whereabouts of the third in line to the throne. Especially in a time of war, when every fantatic and mercenary has a rifle round with his name on it.
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Lots of talk here and no knowledge of what is happening on the ground in Glenrothes.
Let us remember that opinion polls were giving Labour a 15% lead in Glasgow East on the Tuesday of election week.
That tells you one of two things. Either (a)the polls are not very accurate or (b) the polls are manipulated to try to influence the result.
My money is on "b" and watching the total media blitz against the SNP over Glenrothes just confirms the uneven field the SNP always finds itself on.
That we have come so far despite a constant wart of attrition against the SNP since I joined the organisation (then getting less than 1% in the polls) is deeply reassuring and confirms that our success is inevitable.
Let those who pontificate on this blog get to Glenrothes and meet the SNP army. It is ithe only significant political body in Scotland and is winning - if not next week - it is winning the war.
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#109 MaxSceptic
Spot on. It was sheer stupidity by the West in general and the US in particular to support the odious mujahadeen for no better reason than their opposition to the Sovet Union leading to the rise of the Taleban, who are still a greater threat to liberty and equality than Hussein's Iraq ever was.
One case where "my enemy's enemy is my friend" didn't work out too well.
As the mod queue is well over ant hour now, I'll look back later.
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Message 108 Brownedov
The question is not a matter of self-determination or the Act of Union. These are all functions of a viable economic independence.
Scotland does not qualify as an economically independent entity and thus self-determination becomes an irrelevance.
I would also hazard a guess that the United Kingdom might no longer be economically independent either.
This is why I keep banging on about the similarity between people rather than the differences. Why support divide and rule?
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#86 Stanilic
"Scotland can no more be an independent country as England could recover its empire. This is fools living in a glorious past now long gone."
Tell that to the Irish, Estonians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Slovakians, Norwegians, Nigerians, Croatians, Macedonians and Slovenes; not forgetting the the Canadians, Venezuelans, Jamaicans, Indians, Barbadians, Ghanaians, Indonesians and Malaysians. And then come back and tell the Scots.
The memebership of the UN has risen from around 70 to over 200 in the last sixty years. All these countries gaining their independence do not appear to be looking backwards. Perhaps it is believers in remnant imperial states who are fools living in a glorious past.
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115 Browndove
Yes - interesting isn't it!
I think after the general election we'll see:
Scotland = SNP
Wales = Plaid / Labour power share - led by Labour
England - Conservative
Northern Ireland - i have no idea?!
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re 114 balhamu
but its a Guardian article that refers to a Newsnight interview.
What's it got to do with the Daily Mail?
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"wart of attrition" in myearlier contibution should of coursr read "war of attrition".
Perhaps Cromwell had a few of the former.
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The Prince is often quoted but the later Discourses is the superior work. But, a Machiavellian focus by politicians, the media, and public is corrosive. One sees plans and shadows where none necessarily are, and can be tempted to act poorly.
The Tao covers much of the same ground but has superior insight, and is applicable across a greater breadth and depth of situations. One might also find value in Zen Buddhism and Miyamoto Musashi's strategic masterpiece, The Book of Five Rings.
People often blindly follow leaders or react blindly to enemies, but this is the tail wagging the dog. The closer to victory the further away you are. This is a paradox well known to Zen Buddhsm, and why after reading Machivelli you should throw it away.
The Christian scriptures comment that "Everything is permitted but not everything is recommended". Indeed, this is true for something as mundane as coding a a computer programmme, to driving a car, to expression in public space.
Too much freedom of expression and attitude actually lowers understanding and consensus, and drains the capital. For instance, too much "debate" makes children thick, and too much "emotionalism" buffets people so they're never able to form a meaningful relationship.
Self-awareness, filling your mind with less intellectual clutter and passions, and being sensitive to context allows one to develop quality and expand into the space rather than crashing and burning. This is better for oneself and other people who are dependent on you.
...
Alex Salmond is a political troll and David Cameron is corrosive. This arrogance and rudeness is why they're weaker in the polls and generally proves that too much cleverness or desire can backfire. One can debate theory and polls until the cows come home but the essence of this is that they can't even rule their own minds.
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#101 Fredalo
Thanks for the tip re the YouGov poll for the Torygraph. Sadly, there's no detail yet on eitheir website. The Scottish sample will likely be too small to tell us much, but it will still be interesting to compare with the recent YouGov Scottish poll for the Sunday Times before making any assumptions re Glenrothes.
"Are the voters in Glenrothes going to vote on Scottish isses or National issues? If National I believe NuLab will retain the seat."
Your choice of wording is unfortunate. To a majority in Scotland, National issues are the Scottish or Holyrood ones. Union or British issues are the Westminster ones. That is NOT to say that a majority favour independence. They clearly don't, yet, and sensible federal policies could still save the union.
From the polls, as my #41 makes clear, if National issues are key then the SNP should walk it. If it's Westminster issues, then Labour went in to the campaign with a modest lead.
So far, the handling of HBOS, energy pricing and LIT by the arch-unionist NuLab has hardly been astute in taking the mind off National issues. Their best hope is to try frightening the voters into thinking that a NuLab loss will lead to an immediate fall of the Westmidden government followed by Thatcher2 from the Tories.
Even that has lost some of its ability to strike fear into the hearts of voters thanks to sensible Aunty Annabel's house training of young Dave.
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Interesting article from Norman Lamont on learning lessons from the past:
Lessons from the past
If Scotland gets independence, I wonder how the debts Brown is racking up will get divided out between Scotland and the rest of the UK?
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Nick do you choose the pictures for your blog entries yourself?
If not the picture editor has a clear pro-Labour bias, but then this is the BBC we're talking about here of course.
Despite your best efforts to present Gordon as a hero Nick, the punters rather than pundits still appear to be putting their cash behind the SNP.
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re: 122 flamepatricia
Because then they'd have no christmas shows at all come december.
Suspending Ross for as long as they have means that the core chat show doesn't have any Christmas event/guests (this is something which the BBC hasn't seemed to have worked out yet), and that's a massive downer for me; I'm not a massive Ross fan, but I'm worried that Christmas on the BBC is going to end up like watching a labour party political broadcast with a handful of dismal reality shows sprinkled in because everyone's too scared to make a joke and because the only draw for famous guests has gone.
Regardless of whether or not people like Ross, it would be a nice idea if the BBC didn't ban Christmas altogether.
Nobody else seems to have tumbled to the "no fun christmas telly" problem in all this, but it's the first thing I thought of because Christmas is the only thing any of us have got to look forward to given the doom and gloom that's enveloped the country/economy.
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#116 T A Griffin (TAG)
"[B]e afraid, 'they' want to take this from you. If the good people of Glenrothes do not understand this then we need to ensure that they do become aware, I still like to consider that not everybody is in slumberland."
OK - A fair point, and you have me bang to rights on that, but it's not one currently being pushed very hard by any of the parties.
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Brown didn't campaign in Glenrothes and I doubt he will. He went to a cafe that is a stone's throw from the Labour HQ and nowhere near "normal" people.
http://jess-the-dog.blogspot.com/2008/10/truth-about-browns-glenrothes-campaign.html
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#119
The media were wrong. When Harry wanted to be sent to Iraq, as an officer he has to follow orders and he was told that he was not to be sent because of the danger. He then through a tantrum and indicated that if he was not sent then he would leave the army.
On the basis that the media would not report anything he was sent to Afghanistan, because if they did he would not be sent. So, we have an officer in the army telling his superiors what he would do if they didn't comply with his wishes. Does nobody see anything wrong with this.
When he was in Afghanistan we saw him using a computer to call in an airstrike on people, so giving away to the world military secrets as to how we operate. Air strikes and Drones, Reaper and Predator. Furthermore, he was also filmed wearing a particularly offensive cap, I believe of American design, with the logo 'we do bad things to bad people', what like killing women and chlidren. So, we have the grandson of the Queen winning hearts and minds do we, is that not the facts.
Your final comment which I repeat below:-
'Especially in a time of war, when every fantatic and mercenary has a rifle round with his name on it'.
Where exactly is your evidence for this comment, you have been to Afghanistan I suppose. What I would say is that it is the British who are the fanatics, and we are for sure the mercenaries. Maybe an unpopular view at this time but what is happening in Afghanistan and Iraq is not right, we are the criminals as far as I am concerned, we are the war criminals because we have allowed ourselves to be deluded. We have been duped. I regard Bush, Blair and now Brown as war criminals, I only hope that the new American President will not become tarnished, which he will unless he announces an immediate transfer of all American troops to the United Nations with immediate effect.
The people of Glenrothes, must send a message to Gordon Brown, it is not about the economy, it's about the wars. The Americans have understood this, we should do the same, Troops Out Now.
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Message 124 minceandmealie
I tell the Scots whenever I get the opportunity, some never get the message.
You are talking about nationalism. It is a poison that gets decent people killed.
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#123 stanilic
"Scotland does not qualify as an economically independent entity and thus self-determination becomes an irrelevance.
I would also hazard a guess that the United Kingdom might no longer be economically independent either."
Nice to see you supporting the stance that I have consistently argued for.
The UK is too small for the big things in this world, has to forget its imperial past and enthusiastically embrace Europe and the euro.
Within Europe, of course, the UK is ridiculously over-governed and a layer needs to be removed.
Since the Scottish Parliament already handles our domestic affairs, Westminster can revert to being the Parliament for England.
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Nick,
heard that awful Robert Peston on the news at one on BBC. He used the term when discussing Barclays Bank about how they are 'putting up two fingers' to the government. Now this is an appalling standard of so called journalism, it is time that the BBC took this man under control, sack Robert Peston.
Of course Barclays Bank ought not to allow the British government to get involved in banking, where is the manifesto obligation, you know like the one where we were going to get a referendum on some issue or other now lost in the mists of time.
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Observing from a discreet distance, so as not to cause undue anxiety or panic, judging, as I did, that even a modicum of due anxiety or panic resulting from my too conspicuous appearance on the scene might prove excessive in the prevailing climate of fear and alarm that is beginning to grip the population of much of the planet, I could not help noticing that there is a world of difference, as you say, between the Glenrothes by-election campaigning of the Labour candidate's most distinguished patrons (the UK state's supreme overlord and his over-protected consort) and that of the SNP candidate's most distinguished supporter, the First Minister of Scotland, who appears to be ready and willing to meet and greet anyone and everyone.
The SNP canvassing seems to be a genuine and forthright meeting of minds with the electors of the constitutuency, who are plainly becoming increasingly concerned about the questionable stewardship of the UK economy provided by the Labour UK overlords over the past decade and more, culminating as it is doing, as people are more and more coming to realize despite waves of Labour propaganda, in a profound and potentially enduring threat to livelihood and standard of living in Scotland. It has not gone un-noticed in Glenrothes that the Labour Party appears to be well and truly fearful of confronting the anger and disappointment of the people.
The Scottish National Party, on the other hand, calmly explains to all and sundry how, by reducing costs for individuals and businesses and continuing to do so within the limitations of the powers currently exercisable by the Scottish Government, it has done and is doing its level best to mitigate the adverse effects of UK government mismanagement of the UK economy. It also makes a point of expressing its view that the UK administration should use its much more extensive powers to reduce heating costs this winter by opposing excessive profiteering by providers of electricity and gas supply, as has been done outside the UK to the benefit of, not least, vulnerable members of other societies.
Stepping back from the contest, one notices that the chill of the northern hemisphere's winter is here already, as a dark season descends upon many of the economies of the planet. In this Cimmerian gloom the voting intentions of the electors of Glenrothes, notwithstanding the evident culpability of the Labour Party, may not be so predictable as were those of the electorate of Glasgow East. If one panics a flock of sheep, as you call those docile woolly-minded woolly creatures that one sees just about everywhere one goes, one may be sure that they will move suddenly and quickly. One cannot, however, seriously expect them to move smartly, in the sense of necessarily heading off in a direction which reason might indicate to be likely to present them with the greatest degree of safety and well-being. Or am I under-estimating the electorate of Glenrothes? We shall soon see.
What is clear is that the Glenrothes by-election is evidently taking place at a time when the Wheel of Fortune, as the ancients expressed it, has turned so as to present the electorate with no clear view of the road ahead. Will the unionist account be accepted according to which Scotland's potential future status as an independent state has become a thing of the past or will the electors see through the fog of electioneering to perceive with clarity that the wheel that turns will turn again and that there is nothing so inconstant as fortune?
The essence of sentient beings, in any case, consists in an innate capacity to make their own fortune. To do so independence of action is required, of course. One's hands must not be tied. For a country to control its destiny and overcome misfortune it clearly requires independence rather than fatalistic dependence on the goodwill and good offices of others. It also requires able leadership, which the SNP appears to stand ready to provide, and an indomitable spirit such as passionate devotees of the theatre will be familiar with in the works of a number of antique playwrights known collectively as Shakespeare:
"Though fortune's malice overthrow my state,
My mind exceeds the compass of her wheel."
(Henry VI, Pt. III, IV, iii)
Or are these lines reserved for the use of the supreme overlord?
Toodloothenoo.
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jcook @ 74
the BBC is consumed by interest in itself - Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand.
To be honest, I think it's more the BBC going in for a spot of self flagellation than anything else. They've messed up in public and so they are now keen to show us all that they can take it on the chin. Don't think it says too much about dumbing down or political bias.
I do, btw, share most people's disapproval of the stunt pulled on the offending show - it shouldn't have been done in the first place and it definitely should not have gone out. It's also good to see Wussy and Wossy, particularly the latter, cut down to size a little bit. They were getting too much like hedge fund managers, if you know what I mean.
Having said that, the upshot of the controversy is that the older generation have managed to get taken off air a TV show and a radio show, neither of which they were ever in the habit of tuning into, and I'm not so sure that's such a great outcome when I really think about it.
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#126 grawth
It's got nothing to do with the Daily Mail - it's not like they've found something to keep their moral outrage on the front pages or anything like that
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#129 Brownedov
Apologies for the unwitting syntax errors.
I hail from VERY South of the Border.
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Maybe the BBC can explain why Brown was given a platform to expound his views at Glenrothes on the midday Scottish news, and the same privilege was not accorded to any of the opposition parties ? I thought there were impartiallity rules governing this ; either there aren't or the BBC is scared Brown does something nasty to them over the Ross/ Brand whitewash.
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BORING, BORING, BORING, BORING, BORING,
The same old tories blog after blog whatever the subject the same old rheteric
the same posts with one or two words changed, the same name calling the same crazy poems from PTPPL , Tag is occupied with war its a wonder he hasn't come up with something about William Wallace. and the usual culprits are there pumping out their poison, its pathetic.
For goodness sake you mostly english middle class chinless wonders leave the people of glenrothes to decide for themselves, thats called democracy, and its a absolute certainty that your conservative advice is not intended to help them but to once again help yourselves as Tories always do. BORING and NONPRODUCTIVE so for goodness sake give it a rest.
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#110 and #81
It seems the Daily Mail editorial policy has already taken effect - I am unable to post anything criticising the hysterical reaction to the Brand/Ross/Manuel incident, nor critical of Richard Littlejohn.
While the phonecall to Andrew Sachs was distasteful, the subject matter was true (indeed, the Mail was reporting about that particular encounter, together with a picture of Georgina Baillie with only black tape covering her modesty - they've since changed the picture and some of the wording attached to the story in line with their Stalinist editorial policy).
Georgina Baillie story in the Mail with revised pictures
It's ok for Richard Littlejohn to make slurs on Mandelson over his sexuality, which he obviously considers to be morally deviant and to suggest that because of his sexuality he is rather fond of young boys.
Richard Littlejohn moral crusader
3 things in this delightful made-up interview between Hercule Poirot and Lord 'Mandalay'
1. "I was due to have a Brazilian this morning" (how amusing)
2. "I was a guest at the ambassador's residence in Bruxelles when you were living in the Rue des Jeunes Garcons" (road of young boys, do you get it? Howling with laughter now)
3. "I also know that you like to avail yourself of the hospitality of rich men and have flown here directly from the home of a prominent manufacturer of saucisson in Italy" (he likes a bit of sausage, doesn't he, Lord Mandelson. Littlejohn's humour knows no bounds)
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re: 134 JessTheDogBlog
Fantastic link that; maybe the BBC could comment on it.
He's such a cowardy-custard that if he didn't hold so much power he'd actually be extremely funny.
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#136 stanilic
Prior to the great wave of nations gaining their independence in the 20th century, the global political scenario was mainly one of empires held together by violence and military force. I would say that imperialism was a poison that got people killed, and that coutries taking responsibility for governing themselves was generally a good thing.
Do you suggest that Norway gaining its independence from Sweden was a backward, poisonous step ?
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People are trying to control and maipulate that which cannot be controlled or manipulated. This clouds peoples minds so they can't see the way ahead. One would be better off being blind and poor.
Some politicians are genuine zealots, so project genuiness. Others care deeply for themselves, so project caring. This is what conmen have done through the ages but none of is real.
While one could complain, it's better to just develop yourself by letting go of ambition and neediness. Thus, creating space for success and voter enthusiasm to arise naturally and of its own accord.
This is the Tao, or low road.
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#140 JF1980
Goodness me. Does Auntie Annabel know about all of this?
Alas, corroboration is required in Scotland when charges are brought. Where is your corroboration?
And where is your reason for supposing that anybody cares very much what politicians got up to when they were at university? If they did, who should escape censure?
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The Mail says 'The BBC fills our living rooms with more smutty and degrading obscenities'
The Mail would never think to fill our living rooms with smutty and degrading behaviour
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re: 144 kaybraes
I think the news section of the BBC are massively pleased that the brown/ross thing happened; it gave them an excuse to divert attention from the dismal economic state we're in and means they don't have to even pretend to be politically balanced; there's an inherent bias at the bbc which the brown/ross scenario has just helped them with.
If the SNP don't get 100% of the votes, then the BBC will advertise the result as a resounding confidence vote in favour of Brown.
I think the BBC line will be something like "At least three people voted for labour, so Gordon Brown is now safe as he's proved that he's got the whole of the uk behind him."
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re: 145, grandantidote
And the same old whingeing from you... Come on grandy, get a grip!
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Nick
Could you do a quick hatchet job blog on Peter Mandelson or some other new labour cipher to keep your Tory 'followers' happy? Please? If only to shut them up for a while. Anyone would think the Daily Mail doesn't have a web-site!
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#123 stanilic
"Scotland does not qualify as an economically independent entity and thus self-determination becomes an irrelevance."
You're prefectly entitled to that view, which you share with NuLab's politburo but apparently not with nice Mr Cameron. But unless you have a vote in Scotland you'll probably have little success in dissuading Scots from seeking home rule. Whether Westmidden can come up with a workable and fair federal solution will ultimately determine the fate of the UK.
#124 minceandmealie
Very true.
#125 jonathan_cook
That would be my guess too unless the Welsh LibDems rediscover their home ruling and federalist roots as their Scottish cousins seem to be doing.
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#143 Fredalo
They weren't syntax "errors" - just a different syntax.
The political dialogues on both sides of the border really are different, and differences in culture, language and mindset can be very confusing.
Scots are exposed to the English dialogue on TV so we probably understand it a little better, than you do our ours, since you only hear it at Scottish by-election times.
An analogy is that we all have a reasonable understanding of the dynamic of US politics, while they know little of European politics.
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England v Scotland. Now new players in the game. Interesting thought. Does Barclays Bank feel safer borrowing from Middle East sources, rather than placing themselves completely in the hands of Brown and Darling? I have my own opinions, but would like to know what wiser bloggers than myself think.
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145 Grandantidote
I hear what you are saying... but I'm disappointed that I know the ins and outs of and every twist and nuance of the election in America, yet......
........ there is something close to a news blackout concerning Glenrothes.
This election is a political crunch point for a sitting prime minister. It could be a turning point for him if things go well, or it could kick start the Gordon is finished discussions amongst his colleagues again.
The media (including the BBC) has been very poor at supplying the details on the ground in Glenrothes. It is impossible to debate what is happening, without any real understanding of the local nuances.
The news near-news-blackout means that people will sound like they are tub thumping the same old subjects, because there is very little new information introduced that will change the debate.
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#130 jonathan_cook
Thanks for the interesting link. If you've read many of my posts you'll realise that I don't often agree with Lamont but he was spot on with his: "Although the Budget of 1993 was the right budget, it was deeply unpopular and the chief beneficiary was Labour, which inherited a massively strong economy that took it a decade to destroy."
It would appear to be the NuLab strategy to let the Tories inherit such a damaged economy that they will have little chance to recover before the fickle electorate boot them out again. That might just happen in England but in Scotland and Wales there are still credible, non-socialist, left wing alternatives.
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Call an election. The sooner we get rid of Gordon 'dead eyes' Brown the better... Do the right thing, voters of Glenrothes, and kick Labour right where it hurts. They are the party of hypocrisy and corruption... even Berlusconi is straighter than Labour.
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141 Sagamix
I guess you are right, it is a spot of self flagellation.
I always feel uneasy when news about the BBC dominates its own headlines.
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#151 balhamu
I was checking out the Mail for a story they ran distorting comments by the Norwegian ambassador, and found Daily Mail the paper for pervs.
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Chuck @128 says:
Alex Salmond is a political troll
I'm not sure about that, but he does remind me of Shrek.
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Brown says PMs don't do by-elections - but has been in Glenrothes more often than he has been in his own constituency of late.
Brown says that the era of boom and bust is dead - tell that to those who face a very bleak winter.
Britain says - come on SNP, give Brown a bloody nose so that he will then be ousted and the public given the opportunity to elect a PM and government that will serve the country rather than themselves
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balhamu @146,
As I don't take the Mail (never have, never will), it was nice of you to repeat the anti-Mandy jokes.
Would you be so kind as to provide this service on a regular basis - it really cheered me up.
Ta,
Max
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#134 JessTheDogBlog
Thanks for the link and the excellent Google pics on it. The subject was aired a little on the Brian Taylor threads, but certainly got virtually no UK coverage and none at all from the unionist Scottish print media.
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That's about right. Really, you just have to mentally step between the brambles and they don't touch you. When thought connects with thought, and emotion connects with emotion it twists the rigid and reactive mind out of shape. So, by becoming nothing this waffle passes through like an arrow through smoke.
The brainiacs in here and the Tory high command still haven't figured out how acting like that is influencing the media and public opinion in ways that aren't helpful to scrutiny and polling. They're so busy cheeping like little birds in the nest they've completely forgotten that they might be getting the wrong sort of attention.
Posts that are interesting and accessible, and mature are more likely to have a better influence over the long-long term. Also, you will have a happier time writing stuff you enjoy, and spend less time giving attention and the power that goes with that to people who would do you harm. The genuinely powerful don't bark or rush, and people notice that.
I note how Osbornes latest wheeze spends half its time badmouthing Labour, carbon copying Labour policy, and has a deliberate invitation to anticipate more policy development shortly. This is just the political equivalent of selling baked beans. It's clever and subtle, but just more of the same Thatcherite policy under the hood. And people are noticing that as well.
Labour have policies and intent, but the Tories merely have a facade. By genuinely growing from the ground up instead of trying to impose a phony image from the top down, Labour will continue to get real and connect with the country while the Tories will continue to internally stress themselves and, eventually, explode in anger and frustration (such as what they're trying to do to you).
Let go. Be happy. That's it.
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#139 Greetings_Earthlings
Nice one, and well up to your usual high standards, but may I politely suggest that your Pimploid antennae may need a little re-tuning for the predominantly anglocentric audience of this particular blog?
I would particularly appreciate extraterrestrial assistance in understanding the views of stanilic, who roundly condemns the UK state's overlords while avowedly supporting their policies.
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#165 max
That's no problem - glad you like at least one of my posts!
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It's actually the responsible thing to do. Dountless, people are working on policy and discussing things behind the scenes, and shouting and screaming about real or imaginary problems just confuses and upsets people when they should be focused on relaxing and getting on with it.
The Tao comments that feudal lords arise when there is trouble, and the Tory election campaign has been to start arguments and be rude, talk up recession, or try to make people feel useless and depressed. As with street hoods, the Tories would rather keep people down so they could get into power than see calm and happiness return and just be another pebble on the beach.
'The Plan', Cameron's speeches, and Osbornes attempts more recent rushing about betrays this to anyone who's paying attention. I'll admit, it's well engineered and smooth for what it is but every time it's tested the people behind it are shown to be a sham like someone with a faked up CV or a walter mitty type character. They haven't shown credible and sustained change as a party or as individual people to convince me they're what they pretend to be.
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#140 JF1980
If you're right about the Tory candidate, then maybe Aunty Annabel and nice Mr C are showing even more sense than I gave them credit for.
The Cameron says Scots could go alone was clearly code to indicate he wouldn't exactly be miffed by an SNP victory over NuLab, but perhaps behind the scenes they did a little weighting of the dice against their own player.
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167 "Labour have policies and intent"
...but unfortunately weren't concentrating when the English Literature lecturer suggested that Orwell's '1984' was a warning, not an instruction manual.
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Nick,
your moderaters are removing my comments because they are judged to be off topic. What I would say is that on this basis you will not be getting any meaningful comments because who decides what is on topic. A bye election in Scotland is the opportunity for the policy of the government, all aspects of government to be discussed.
If it is a referendum on Gordon Brown, as it must be because he is electioneering in a constituency, if labour wins they will say people do support Gordon Brown, if labour loses, they will say that the actions being taken by the government need time to effect peoples lives.
If a bye election is not the opportunity for people to register a vote against then why the interest, oh that's right there isn't any because all the heavyweights are in America covering a foreign election. Now what has Nick done to be the only one sent to Glenrothes, why are you there Nick.
Oh, and can we have another topic to dissect, maybe something about why MPs are taking such a long christmas break. More censorship, be afraid because who decides the topic, Mr de Menezes isn't worth comment I suppose.
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89. T A Griffin (TAG) wrote:
The solution! Why the terrible Taleban, who I regard as freedom fighters. Who wants anybody to invade their country
As a matter of interest, do you regard the IRA as freedom fighters too? Also, the Welsh who a decade or so ago were burning down second homes owned by the English?
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#152 getridofgordonnow
LOL and sad but true.
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I've just had my post 66, which sat sedately on the board for several hours, removed by the moderator.
I know not why.
Perhaps because I used the word "plonkers" which is obviously all right in "Only Fools and Horses" but not in Mr Robinson's blog.
Am I an innocent victim of Brand and Ross's infantile misbehaviour?
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My, my, the moderators are busy today. Not just censuring poor old me, but plenty of other bloggers too. Got back several as they "were not relevant to subject", but we all know that's rot. When we were mocking silly old Ross and Brand, anything could go. But, try and write something with substance, which doesn't follow the party line, and you will quickly find it either moderated or swiftly removed from the list. This IS relevant, so please let it through. Thanks!
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adapted piece
The fascinating contest in Glenrothes is between a huge, energetic SNP machine flooding the constituency with determined workers and a pathetic Labour effort relying, as it did in Glasgow East, on workers imported from south of the border.
The difference this time is that the whole media is trying to give Glenrothes to Brown and we have huge media coverage of stunts from Labour like flying visits by GB's wife and carefull controlled cameos of Brown meeting carefully chosen Labour supporters for a few minutes.
I suspect the media is underestimating the intelligence of the Scottish electorate who are always very quick to realise when they are being treated as fools.
Listening to Nick Robinson on BBC news tonight indicated he has swallowed the spin as well.
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#168 Brownedov
Nice to hear from you.
Look here, though. I am not a miracle worker. If you are expecting logic and consistency from the inhabitants of the region to the south of Hadrian's Wall, I suspect that you may have been living among the confederated Helvetians for too long.
As for my antennae, it took me long enough to get them attuned to the subtleties of the Kingdom of Fife. I am not adjusting anything for the Kingdom of England.
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Nick,
the moderaters are removing pieces because off being off topic. I knew that this would happen because now the legals are saying if this is going out on the BBC then the BBC must have editorial control even over the comments.
'They' really don't like the internet do they?
It's very hard to be sane.
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Being cynical just to score points with your pals may feel cool for a moment but isn't very useful, so I don't take it very seriously.
The Tories can pull their 'Lord of the Flies' act but I don't go out of my way to diss their policies or be nasty back.
Immaturity is experiencing life in the same way that vinegar is like drinking a glass of wine.
Listen to the trees.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#156 oldnat
Even the Herald have decided to run with the Norway story with their: Scottish Secretary accused of provoking "diplomatic incident" and are allowing comments which currently include the text of the said letter.
Good to see Murphy, the Mail and the Herald all helping the SNP cause albeit unwittingly, but it was ever thus.
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Nick,
surely your next topic must be on the decision of the BBC on Brand/Ross and the implcations for censorship and freedom of speech. which means opinions as well. Politics is not only politics, it is philosophy and economics as well as a touch of psychiatry. I ma not saying that any politician needs to see a psychiatrist.
There is only one thing worse than Project Griffin, that is an angry Project Griffin.
Surely, the BBC must stand up for us, the real people. The voices of the people, without you we have no voice, where next, onto the streets?
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#182 TAG
And that's stictly true - several legal cases have concluded that organisations/webhosts are responsible for content on their websites.
Therefore, all comments on this board have to fit in under the BBCs editorial policy.
There is now a lot more scrutiny of said policy.
Expect a risk-averse reaction - these blogs to be shut down (and anyway, is employing a moderator for a blog really the best use of license fee?) and the BBC to focus on boring, uninnovative programming that can offend no-one.
At least the Melanie-ites at the Daily Mail will be happy
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I called for better moderation some time ago, and quoted the Washington Post as an example to back that up. So, if the BBC are taking a more pro-active role in blog comments that's a welcome move.
Some folks may have become used to posting what they want or throwing attitude around but this is a losers game in the long run. As I've commented before, it just empties forums and newsgroups, and blog comments are no different.
The challenge is to develop reason and sensitivity that's realistic and doesn't unnecessarily upset people. By raising the bar new people coming online have a better example to learn from, and politics in the most general sense can turn the tide.
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#163 MaxSceptic
Where's pot_kettle when you need him?
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Tried to respond TAG but mods aren't having it.
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#174 conspiracy2012
How true.
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conspircy@174
Like it - LOL!
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#181 Greetings_Earthlings
Point sadly taken.
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The Genrothes By Election result is probably irrelevant to the big picture as there is barely any Conservative vote in Scotland anyway. Of course a narrow win will be trumpeted by his supporters and the man himself as the resurrection of Gordon Brown but it will be fleeting and rather illusory. The Labour Party has probably gone as far as it can to retrieve it's core vote. The rest of the population will not be fooled by the P.M.s closing the stable door antics and the floaters will probably be equally divided on the level of his success depending on their own personal circumstances.
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#118 conspiracy2012
Is the BBC now practising censorship against those who have accused it of political bias? Other posts that I have attemoted to make this morning have failed to materialise on this blog. Wonder if that has anything to do with my complaint about the Osborne witch-hunt?
I had a perfectly innocuous post censored this morning. I just asked a simple but very relative question about the story which has hogged the headlines for the past few days. Seems I touched a very raw nerve with the powers that be at the Beeb.
I wonder how many more of us there are out here who have had their reasoned and rational questions and comments sent straight to the trash can. I also wonder if this comment will even be printed?!!
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How under any stretch of the imagination can the result of this By Election be termed a crucial duel. That is like saying that a match between Liverpool and Arsenal in The Premier League will likely decide the identity of the eventual winners some 5 months later. A win for either Labour or The SNP decides exactly nothing and will do little to put wind into Gordon Brown's sails because his opponents will be more determined than ever to rip them to pieces.
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Labour are going to lose
At Glenrothes: excellent news!
O Scots use your vote
(Don't keep Gordon afloat)
Whatever your political hues!
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185. At 4:20pm on 31 Oct 2008, T A Griffin (TAG) wrote:
#176
I have had to ask that this be removed. It is off topic, apparently it is not part of my life to give an opinion. Were the North Vietnamese freedom fighters, were the French resistance freedom fighters, remember de Gaulle was sentenced to death by the legitimate French government for treason.
You have obviously been taking some hobby-type home course, in perhaps, war correspondence. Why don't you ask for your own comments to be removed, they are way of topic. Silly boy!
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187. At 4:25pm on 31 Oct 2008, T A Griffin (TAG) wrote:
Nick,
surely your next topic must be on the decision of the BBC on Brand/Ross and the implcations for censorship and freedom of speech. which means opinions as well. Politics is not only politics, it is philosophy and economics as well as a touch of psychiatry. I ma not saying that any politician needs to see a psychiatrist.
There is only one thing worse than Project Griffin, that is an angry Project Griffin.
Surely, the BBC must stand up for us, the real people. The voices of the people, without you we have no voice, where next, onto the streets?
So why did you have them remove my Comment #176, as you state in your comment #185? Call in the clowns!
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oldnat @ 137
I think you have hit the proverbial nail on the head when you say that:
"Within Europe, of course, the UK is ridiculously over-governed and a layer needs to be removed."
The Westminster based politicians fully understand this, which I think is their primary driver for trying to hang onto political UK.
They know that if Scotland goes, followed by the Welsh, then in effect the whole 'British' administrative layer of the bureaucacy can disappear as Westminster reverts to an England only Parliament.
BTW, I think Labour will just about hang on in Glenrothes but either way, won't make any difference in the long run because the Scottish political tide has turned. If only the English would wake up and smell the freedom.
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Nick
Just wondering where you heard about the by-election.
The BBC news pages are full of stuff about the US election (god only knows why - the british don't get to vote, and will have to work with whoever is elected by the americans). However, not much about the by-election...
I see osborne made the top slot on the UK page, but still has a link to the yacht 'non-story'.
Looking forward to your coverage of mandleson when he gets back...
BTW: Have you actually read the ministerial guidelines? It seems pretty clear that mandleson hasn't... Looking forward to his apology and resignation.
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Message 137 oldnat
If we are to have a government in Brussels why bother with one in Westminster or in Edinburgh?
Let's just revert to an improved form of the county council and have some real devolution.
There is far to much government in this country, idling about and wasting valuable money. The incumbents talents can be better used elsewhere
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Nick
Just noticed - mandleson is back - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7702809.stm
A chance to get those answers!!
Go for it!
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#189
Must be removed immediately. It is not on topic, the topic is Glenrothes bye-election.
I told you guys to be afraid, very afraid. I said before that the only thing which Brown really has control over is the agenda.
This is more important than Brand/Ross, this needs to be a topic on its own. Do not let them take away our freedoms. We can and will set the agenda, they may not like it but what can they do. Oh, that's right they can close down all their blogs and sack the people who were working on them.
Can we have a comment from the BBC on this important issue, where is the statement from the controller.
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Message 148 minceand mealie
The independence of Norway lead to the creation of a standardised Norse language and many local dialects died away. Nation building can also destroy the past of the very people it is supposed to be serving.
The creation of national governments within the United Kingdom is just adding further tiers of government to the taxpayers' cost. This just cannot go on, particularly now the economy is shrinking.
The nationalists have asked the right question as a centralised government at Westminster just does not work. However, to propose a centralised government in Edinburgh as a substitute is not an improvement: it just multiplies the madness.
We need real devolution throughout the UK down to local and district level.
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I think it's interesting that the Scottish press have always been very pro-Labour. Believe me I live here and I know. They are determined to give GB the bounce that his 'economic miracle' seems to them to justify. Of course the bold GB was responsible for letting the debts-public and private- rip and the enormous house price infaltion. Never mind though we'll be wanting to punish banks, bankers, FSA etc and find the facts but we'll just keep getting the old runaround about the government's hand in this.
I really hope the SNP win in Glenrothes not because I want independence but because I am sick to death of the pious posturing of this man.
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A comment from the Grauniad website:
When it's time to vote I'll remember that Labour:
Sold 50% of our gold reserves at the market bottom prices.
Lied about the borrowing levels (what about PFI).
Spent millions on SPIN and consultants to protect Labour.
Gave the EU billions in cash that we now need to support our own economy.
Promises millions of overseas aid, knowing we can never deliver it.
Trashed the private pension schemes of millions to protect the state scheme which cannot be supported.
The introduction of HIPs adding to the slow down of house sells.
Broken promises on the EU vote. Not allowing a vote on the EU.
Loans for peerages. MP's expenses.
Stealth taxes on everything. 10p tax fiasco and other tax U turns.
University fees and encouraging unsuitable students into debt to reduce the unemployment figures.
Iraq war and the fiasco on weapons of mass destruction.
Harmans positive discrimination war on the White British Male.
Broken "golden rules" now discarded by Gordon.
Largest deficit after Hungary and Pakistan
Encouraging mass immigration and not knowing how many people are here.
Murderers on the Streets. No prison places. Weak law making.
Big Brother and losing our private data regualary.
Non existent NHS dentists.
Fiddled figures on crime, education, unemployment, MRSA & C Diff e
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#183 - you might think my observation at #174 is "cynical" or "immature" but I am becoming increasingly aware that the vast numbers of the British public are awakening from their slumber and working out what it's all about. Thank goodness.
I would also invite you and every other fair minded member of a just about still free and democratic nation to Google the poem "First They Came" by Pastor Martin Niemöller.
Sorry if your political ideaology makes you blind to the obvious.
Instead of resorting to name calling, I leave you with the words of Benjamin Franklin, 1755: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
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#195 sicilian29
"The Genrothes By Election result is probably irrelevant to the big picture"
Yes, I don't think it'll affect the US Presidential election at all.
Of course, if you think that "the big picture" is the UK Parliament, then you're watching the B-film.
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#195 sicilian29
"The Genrothes By Election result is probably irrelevant to the big picture as there is barely any Conservative vote in Scotland anyway."
If the "big picture" doesn't include Scotland, maybe that's why the unionist media including the BBC spout endless pro-union propaganda in a so far unsuccessful attempt to stem the number of Scots supporting home rule.
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Nick,
Why don't you blog on Brown's mendacious or delusional statements about the level of national debt in the UK? The man is unfit to hold any public office let alone be PM if he plays fast and lose with fact on the scale that he is doing on the matter of national indebtedness.
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Message 155 Brownedov
I thought Scotland did have a degree of home rule.
Do I detect a federal solution in your views?
I appreciate it conveniently gets you around the absence of an independent economy.
Sadly, as our political class is now starting to learn, politics without economics does not work.
But that is where I came in.
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#197 sicilian29
To follow your football analogy a little, it's more like a contest to decide whether the league will separate into separate North British and South British leagues if a certain 3rd team win the title.
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The moderaters have had to go on strike. I bet that they are now having a meeting about how they are going to sort this mess out. It is not fair to the juniors who have to moderate what is being said about the appalling state of affairs now existing within the BBC.
This is a shambles and we know it. How? Try Project Griffin.
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Glenrothes is not a referendum of Brown whatever anybody wants to think. It is a local election in a location in Scotland dominated by local issues. It is the general election when it comes that will be a referendum on Brown, and even then it is dependent on there being an effective opposition with a demonstrably different strategy to Brown. If Labour are successful at Glenrothes they will shout it is widespread public support for them, and it isnt. If Labour lose the the oppo will shout it is a judgement by the general public when it isnt. Bit of a nonevent. Just glad I don't live there and can avoid the political jamboree.
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#123 stanilic
"Scotland does not qualify as an economically independent entity and thus self-determination becomes an irrelevance."
Care to elaborate on how you arrived at this very presumptive assumption?
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The reason that many posts are being referred is that as I wrote earlier practically all the posts are just rheteric there is no attempt at debate its all silly name calling and drivel.
If you can bring yourselves to write something,anything that could be taken seriously then perhaps they may stop moderating I have been moderated as you all know, but these last few blogs have been inundated with Tories God knows where they found them but the ratio of Tories to Labour is about fifteen to one thats why many of the Labour supporters have taken a rest including myself.
If these Tories had something worthwhile to say I would say fair enough but its all rubbish they have all developed verbal stomach problems and there is no debate, just self congatulationary posts.
Tag has awarded himself the delusionary project griffin as if anyone is impressed, Robinjd has his absurd call an election now on his every post,as if that convinces anybody and pttpl well we all know that he can't possibly work as he spends every hour of every day on here writing senseless poems, and he earlier told me to get a grip!, I'm sorry lads and lasses you are killing these blogs, blog after blog you are accusing everyone even the blog master of being wrong our biased.
Its boring there is no fun or sense in the posts I think you should all do what ptppl told me to do that is get a grip if you want to breathe life back into the pleasure of taking part on these blogs.
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#199
Oh It's a silly boy I am then is it.
I have no problem at all. It is the irrefutable fact that if that is the sort of comment that can be brought to bear on me then I must be hitting some sort of cord.
Why do you seriously think that all we hear about from the Ministry of Defence is about the bravery of our soldiers, and how the reception for them is great when they return. That the Prime Minister always reads out the names of the dead so as to to put the Commons into a sombre mood.
Don't you know when you are being manipulated? At what point will he not read out the names, what would he have done if it had the battle of the Somme, read out 20,000 names? When did this convention of reading out names actually start, what is the point. That is wrong with Glenrothes, the real battles are being ignored.
It is the Scots who have borne terrible losses in our wars, and for what. We know we will be talking to the Taliban, that we will give them millions in aid, and that we don't really care who governs, as long as we don't have the pictures similar to those when America left Vietnam with helicopters leaving at the last moment. That is what is wrong with Gordon Brown electioneering in Scotland. He must not be allowed to set the agenda.
May I suggest that even though the BBC look out for off topic comments, are we allowed to use the analogy argument. Bit like irony though, most people don't get it.
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stanilic
I know that constitutional issues are seldom mentioned on this blog, but (you won't be surprised to know) they are debated regularly on Scottish blogs.
Your views are not that much different from those frequently espoused north of the border, and might be crudely summarised (our debates are much more nuanced) as -
The EU for the big things (defence and foreign policy, maro-economics, currency)
Scotland (and England) separately for issues which need to be planned/delivered at a national level
Local authorities (structured according to local need - not determined on high from centralist political parties) to deliver all services that do not need wider delivery.
The big political argument is not the old left/right dimension of politics, but the centralist/decentralist dimension.
Those of us in Scotland who are decentralists, tend towards the SNP policy of "Independence in Europe".
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Scotin Notts @ 217:
It won't have escaped the notice of the Scottish people (glad noone on here has referred to them as Scotch) that their banks have been bailed out by The UK Government in line with most of the other British banks. This may well make them less likely to vote SNP in spite of Gordon Brown's unpopularity. Most people in this situation recognise which side of their bread is buttered. I predict a 1000-2000 majority for The Scottish Labour Party in this meaningless election.
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How on earth did Business secretary Mandelson's approval of the HBOS Lloyds TSB merger, despite the OFT report warning of concerns over competition, not make it into any national televised news coverage?
I really do despair sometimes.
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grandy @ 218:
So tell me what of any substance is there in this post to carry the political argument any further? You should practice what you preach and stay away from pointless sniping!
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re: 218, grandantidote
The reason there are hardly any Labour supporters on these blogs is because there are hardly any Labour supporters. Why? You know why: the Labour party is diseased and dying.
If these Tories had something worthwhile to say I would say fair enough but its all rubbish they have all developed verbal stomach problems and there is no debate, just self congatulationary posts.
So refute the 'rubbish' with points of your own. Oh that's right you can't because there's no justification whatsoever for Nu-Lab's reign of corruption...
Robinjd has his absurd call an election now on his every post
Sounds very sensible to me!
pttpl well we all know that he can't possibly work as he spends every hour of every day on here writing senseless poems
LOL
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Apologies, channel 4 just did, as an add on to the Barclay's story. Come on BBC!
As an aside, after watching Scottish questions online, which you should watch, and the subsequent revelation from the Norwegian ambassador, I'd like to personlly thank good old Jim for his inadvertant support of the SNP cause.
Was anything productive done at SQ's? From what I seen it was an excuse to bad mouth AS and the SNP.
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The flowery words are just a comment on form, attitude, and change but the borrowed wisdom has turned into cliche. Most people quoting these don't know what they're talking about beyond the sloganised emotionalism, so trip over their ego.
Grabbing onto cleverness and running with the cool guys doesn't make anyone clever or cool. It doesn't mean they "get it" or are going to change the world. Mostly, it's quite the reverse, as Robspierre et al discovered.
A generation of fear and greed has screwed people up, and all this junk and emotionalising is just so much of their own mind raging. It's kicking up a bit of froth but when the confusion and pain boils off the only thing that remains is calm, and that's the point where people can start getting a clue.
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Nick
You say :
'If Labour wins their victory will be hailed as evidence that Mr Brown has turned a political corner. If the SNP wins Mr Salmond will declare that he's proved wrong those who hailed the death of nationalism. It is a duel whose outcome will affect politics way beyond this part of Scotland'.
Who exactly will hail the victory as evidence that Brown has turned the political corner?
You see you can't have it both ways. Brown is not President, he is Prime Minister. Now the last time I looked nobody had actually voted for Brown to be Prime Minister, nobody will be voting for Brown in Glenrothes. I do not remember seeing his name on the ballot list, so it not a vote for Brown.
If the politicians or the political commentators hail it as victory for Brown then they will be wrong. In fact they will be very much off topic. You see Nick your comment is actually off topic, because the Glenrothes bye-election is not about the labour party or Gordon Brown it is about the people voting for an individual who will represent all the constituents in Westminster.
You and others might like to think that it is about Gordon only it isn't. It is about the democratic process, this is what is called representative government.
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conspiracy @ 174
but unfortunately weren't concentrating when the English Literature lecturer suggested that Orwell's '1984' was a warning, not an instruction manual.
Oooo, likening Labour's Britain to Nineteen Eighty Four by George Orwell !!! - original and thought provoking or what?
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re: grandantidote
grandy's lament for the blog
Reveals him to be just a cog
In Labour's machine
(It's shameful, obscene)
No wonder he's lost in a fog...
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#221 sicilian29
Scots"banks have been bailed out by The UK Government in line with most of the other British banks."
No. The UK is borrowing the money to lend (at 12%) to UK banks. Much as other countries have done.
In the case of HBOS, it looks much more like the UK has committed the money to Lloyds to allow them to centralise even more financial power in London, at the expense of Edinburgh and Halifax.
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Hey everyone. We haven't a clue and are just joining the anti Brown bandwagon because it's cool and the thing to do. We don't have an ounce of independent thought and follow the majority presumably because we have the mind of sheep and read the so called 'Torygraph' and 'The Daily Moan'. 'What do you think of dem bananas?'
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re: 228, sagamix
or what?
It's frightening, that's what.
You exist to obey us Labour, it's high time you remembered that.
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#213 stanilic
"Do I detect a federal solution in your views?"
Indeed you do. If you care to look at my user profile you will see that I am consistently in favour of a wirtten constitution whereby power is invested in the people. Ideally I would like to see a polity based on the Swiss concept of direct democracy, with key decisions being by referendum and administrative power delegated to communes, cantons or the confederation as appropriate.
I also recognise that the cankerous party system in the UK will fight long and hard to ensure that doesn't hapens and so second best choices may have to be taken by Scotland.
Having looked at your user profile, I have no idea what political settlement you favour. Your #123 suggests that you might be in advance of oldnat in wishing individual communities to delegate their power direct to Brussels or perhaps you are one of the old anarcho-syndicalists, a few of whom still survive in Andalusia?
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219. At 7:07pm on 31 Oct 2008, T A Griffin (TAG) wrote:
#199
Oh It's a silly boy I am then is it.
Alas, you missed the joke. Famous line from "Dad's Army". I was trying to lighten things a little. You are using this thread for a topic that isn't relevant. Obviously a topic very close to your heart, but this isn't the place for it. I doubt if the BBC will give us one, if they did we could all take part.
I cannot for oen moment agree with your premise about 'freedom fighters', but regarding the following which you wrote:
"Why do you seriously think that all we hear about from the Ministry of Defence is about the bravery of our soldiers, and how the reception for them is great when they return. That the Prime Minister always reads out the names of the dead so as to to put the Commons into a sombre mood."
I think they use platitudes because they are cheap. Far cheaper than giving soldier's decent living accomodation, caring for their families, and most important of all, equipment for the job. I write as the offspring of an old soldier, and as one who had many family members in the armed forces.
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#218 grandantidote
Why is it that every comment you post is reasonable, whilst the people who disagree with you are full of rhetoric, silly name calling and drivel. Perish the thought that others may think that you might fit into that category too.
Some contributors to this blog can actually bring themselves to write pieces that many other readers empathise with and take seriously. The fact that you don't is neither here nor there.
You do not know exactly why the posts were refused by the moderators, so your reasons are based on pure supposition.
The reason that the ratio of Conservative to Labour bloggers on here is so high, is because most of us can see through the smoke and mirrors which shows the government up for the sheer hypocrisy it stands for.
I promise I will get a grip, grandantidote, especially when Labour lose the next general election.
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#221 sicilian29
As most of my other posts make clear, I disagree with virtually all of your post but have some sympathy with the last two words of it: "meaningless election" and wonder if you would clarify them.
Obviously every election under the 1872 plurality system is less than democratic and thus meaningless in terms of expressing the will of the people, but perhaps you mean something else.
Are all UK parliamentary elections meaningless? Or would you prefer to return to absolute power by the sovereign? Or perhaps simply treat Scotland as a colony without elected representation? Do tell.
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#226 Charles_E_Hardwidge
You do come out with the occasional gem, CEH.
"A generation of fear and greed has screwed people up"
That certainly sums up what most of us feel about Bliar, Brown and their NuLab acolytes.
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#228 sagamix
"Oooo, likening Labour's Britain to Nineteen Eighty Four by George Orwell !!! - original and thought provoking or what?"
Not at all. Simply apposite and elegantly phrased.
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228. "Oooo, likening Labour's Britain to Nineteen Eighty Four by George Orwell !!! - original and thought provoking or what?"
I never claimed it was original. But I will keep stating the terrifying similarity in the hope that more and more members of the British people read the comparison and it serves to help them WAKE UP!!!
As I say, I'm delighted that so many people have already woken up to Labour's fascist state and can see what Labour and their international cohorts are doing.
Seems you've noticed the public waking up too. The fact you seemingly have also noticed this fills me with warmth and reassurance of the possibility of a new dawn for democracy and liberty.
I hope that someday soon, your political affiliations can be put to one side so that you may help those of us who believe in freedom to fight against what this Labour Government's nightmare vision of society is becoming.
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#231 sicilian29
"Hey everyone. We haven't a clue and are just joining the anti Brown bandwagon"
And the reasons for joining the pro Brown bandwagon are .....?
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re: 231, sicilian
I suppose the typical Nu-Lab voter has to construct fantasies in order to more easily accept the doublethink demanded of them by the Great Leader... maybe that's why the NuLieBore supporters go on about the Daily Mail all the time when real Tories rarely (if ever) do!
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#234
I'm sorry, when it comes to what is going on in Afghanistan and Iraq, I don't lighten up.
It is because people have lightened up that nothing is happening, the killings just go on.
My son used to be 2 Para and may well have known some of the young men who lost their lives, for what?
My father too was in the forces, the Royal Navy, and was witness to the sinking of the Bismark and when you watch young men, who were supposedly your enemy, slowly dying in a cold sea crying for their mothers then I make no apology for saying that I do see people who are not our enemies dying for what, for their freedom. We might not agree but they have their flags too, they have their heroes.
That is why I will keep going on about the wars, about the politicians who are mired in this disaster of a campaign.
In the meantime two Captains in the army have been dishonourably discharged for taking cocaine, two more soldiers have been convicted and sentenced for stealing armamnets which would have been sold to criminals. Come on politicians lets hear about this whilst you are electioneering, no, I wonder why not. There are no injunctions preventing publication. That is why I hold Gordon Brown in such contempt, he is a metaphor.
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If reports on C4 are true, the government knew about serious problems in Icelandic banks in March, but took no action. This will put a different light on thing and may question any trust in Brown.
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#239 conspiracy2012
"I'm delighted that so many people have already woken up to Labour's fascist state and can see what Labour and their international cohorts are doing."
Your immoderate (and inaccurate) use of language may appeal to the more right wing Tories, but sounds very like the US conspiracists accusing Obama of being a Marxist.
I dislike Labour's centralist policies, but "fascism"? - Mussolini? Franco?
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Those of you who don't have direct access to STV might care to look at their report on today's Glenrothes campaigning on their Gordon Brown blasts SNP's 'wrong decisions'.
Note the pro-unionist bias in the headline - something you have to expect in Scotland - but the report itself is reasonably balanced.
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#243 pez1960
Thanks for the tip. The C4 report is online at their Should savers have been warned?.
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244. "I dislike Labour's centralist policies, but "fascism"?"
Yes, fascism. See George Orwell's essay (you know, him of '1984' fame) on the word, by all means. Though I will cite from it for you:
"By ‘Fascism’ they mean, roughly speaking, something cruel, unscrupulous, arrogant, obscurantist, anti-liberal and anti-working-class. Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’".
Hope that helps.
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stanilic @ 203 and 206 oldnat @ 220
It seems to me that the EU itself is not that keen on 'countries' per se, due in very large measure to two world wars initially originating from two European countries, Austria and Germany.
So, when travelling around Europe, you see these signs saying 'Europe of the regions', not countries.
I agree with our Scottish poster oldnat that the core political argument is about centralisation/decentralisation and one day it might be possible to imagine there's no country.
I'll repeat something I've said before, the native Scots seem to be far, far more politically astute than the generally supine English.
It is no wonder that us English are broadly used and abused by the Scottish politicians at Westmonster.
We English are our own worst enemy and we need Salmond and the SNP to save us from ourselves.
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conspiracy@247
Is fascist more appropriate than Stalinist? Genuine question - I'm not sure of the difference.
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249. conspiracy@247
Is fascist more appropriate than Stalinist? Genuine question - I'm not sure of the difference.
Different sides of the same coin?
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#247 conspiracy2012
Trying to patronise other people on a blog (when you have no idea of their knowledge or experience) is usually a mistake.
For example, "(you know, him of '1984' fame)"
You choose to selectively quote from Orwell's 1944 Tribune essay"almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'" as justification for your use of the term "fascist" to describe Labour.
May I suggest that that was an error on your part.
Anyone who has read his essay knows that he was arguing against inappropriate use of the term. He also said in the same essay "It is in internal politics that this word has lost the last vestige of meaning." and "All one can do for the moment is to use the word with a certain amount of circumspection and not, as is usually done, degrade it to the level of a swearword."
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#249 PammyAnny
The irrelevance of using such labels was shown by Orwell's 1944 essay. I suggest the avoidance of pejorative labels is the best course of action.
These are Orwell's examples of the misuse of the term "fascist" -
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240:
I was being facetious. I am on your side you know!
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PammyAnny@249
Hmmmm... I'll work out how I feel on that one over the next few hours.
My initial feeling - apart from their not being a personality cult behind the repression of the people we are witnessing - is that there isn't currently an adequate-enough label to describe what the political elite are enacting mission creep towards.
I'm sure that in years from now, future historians looking back will come up with a new word for what the rulers are attempting now, but it's difficult to fully describe until we see the full hand of cards.
All those who care can do is keep connecting the dots and sharing their opinions with their friends and neighbours.
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Again for those of you who didn't have direct access to STV, you might be interested in last night's Politics Now where Michael Crow chairs a studio debate between the LibDem, NuLab, SNP & Tory candidates.
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224ptpl
"The reason there are hardly any Labour supporters on these blogs is because there are hardly any Labour supporters. Why? You know why: the Labour party is diseased and dying."
There are many millions of labour supporters as you will find out in the not too distant future, and there were quite a few on here but I am afraid that the rubbish on here and mostly from you has made them stay away.
"So refute the 'rubbish' with points of your own. Oh that's right you can't because there's no justification whatsoever for Nu-Lab's reign of corruption..."
its very difficult to make an argument againsrt rubbish as the rubbish has no substance, and if I were you I wouldn't bandy the word curruption around to much.
"Robinjd has his absurd call an election now on his every post
Sounds very sensible to me!"
well thats exactly what I'm saying!
"pttpl well we all know that he can't possibly work as he spends every hour of every day on here writing senseless poems"
Sounds very sensible to me!
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@ #251
"May I suggest that that was an error on your part."
Trying to patronise other people on a blog (when you have no idea of their knowledge or experience) is usually a mistake.
May I suggest that that was an error on *your* part? I know what I was citing, and I know exactly why I went to the text I chose. I know my useage of the word and cited Orwell's acceptance of how the word is commonly used. He argues misused, but also accepts that it is used in the way I chose to use it.
I repeat: ""By 'Fascism' they mean, roughly speaking, something cruel, unscrupulous, arrogant, obscurantist, anti-liberal and anti-working-class. Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'".
Seems to fit NuLabour perfectly, to me.
Can I make a suggestion now? That everyone stops thinking Labour/Conservative/LibDem/SNP/whatever and actually starts thinking of themselves and their families as people with rights to freedom of thought and deed who should not be controlled and repressed by any authority of any political flavour and, where such repression exists, they speak out against it irrespective of what name it presents itself under. Nailing repression to a political name that people feel allegiences towards is a very clever tactic indeed and is meant to create divide and rule. That's one mechanism through which repression is achieved - get the people to repress themselves.
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One of the pernicious problems in Scottish politics is the (understandable) concentration of the UK media on the Labour/Conservative dichotomy.
Hence the incredulity at the incompetence of the UK Tories in having allowed Labour to seize the political high ground.
Even Conservative commentators are incredulous at the incompetence of Cameron/Osborne.
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#254 conspiracy2012
"Hmmmm... I'll work out how I feel on that one over the next few hours."
Try reading George Orwell.
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235 shellinout
"Why is it that every comment you post is reasonable, whilst the people who disagree with you are full of rhetoric, silly name calling and drivel. Perish the thought that others may think that you might fit into that category too."
When did I say that every comment I post on here is reasonable, I am often challenged and I am happy to accept that.
Surely you can't deny that there is a lot of silly name calling and drivel on here I had credited you with more intelligence than that. whatever else I may do I dont go in for silly name calling.
If you want to put me into that category thats you prerogative and if you did then I would be entitled to either agree with you or dispute you inference. As you can.
"You do not know exactly why the posts were refused by the moderators, so your reasons are based on pure supposition."
Thats not very difficult to answer as most of those having their posts removed seem quite happy to tell all and sundry why they are removed.
"The reason that the ratio of Conservative to Labour bloggers on here is so high, is because most of us can see through the smoke and mirrors which shows the government up for the sheer hypocrisy it stands for."
If the ratio of Tories on here to labour supporters were reflected in the next GE the tories would probably form the next government with about 560 seats, and take my word for it It aint going to happen!!Not even in your wildest dreams.
"I promise I will get a grip, grandantidote, especially when Labour lose the next general election."
So we are going to have to put up with this
for another ten or fifteen years are we.
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re: grandantidote
"Robinjd has his absurd call an election now on his every post
Sounds very sensible to me!"
I don't think you understand... RobinJD's suggestion is very sensible.
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re: 256, grandy
its very difficult to make an argument againsrt rubbish as the rubbish has no substance
Surely an argument with 'no substance' is very easy to counter? Evidently not in grandy-land, the topsy-turvy world of Nu-Lab where debt is low and the government are honest...
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#257 conspiracy2012
Orwell thought that people who used "fascism" in your way were the subject of humour.
"Nailing repression to a political name that people feel allegiences (sic) towards is a very clever tactic indeed and is meant to create divide and rule."
So I'm not sure why you adopted it (it's actually not very clever).
"Can I make a suggestion now? That everyone stops thinking Labour/Conservative/LibDem/SNP/whatever"
Many of us don't identify ourselves with a party label. For me, the SNP is a vehicle through which I can get nearer to the society and political structure I want to see.
You are against repression, so am I.
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229 ptpl
Try this for a perfect example of what I am trying to say! from ptpl
"re: grandantidote
grandy's lament for the blog
Reveals him to be just a cog
In Labour's machine
(It's shameful, obscene)
No wonder he's lost in a fog..."
If these Tories had something worthwhile to say I would say fair enough but its all rubbish they have all developed verbal stomach problems and there is no debate, just self congatulationary posts.
Same old rheteric every day
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253 sicilian
And which side is that then?
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261 ptpl
Your telling me that he really is that stupid
are you?
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262 ptpl
"Surely an argument with 'no substance' is very easy to counter? "
So you think its easy to argue against nothing do you, well that tells me a lot about you, not that I didn't suspect as much.
"Evidently not in grandy-land, the topsy-turvy world of Nu-Lab where debt is low and the government are honest..."
Is that your firm opinion or will you, like your heroes Dave and George, have a different opinion by Monday.
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Nick
Martha knows that Mandleson still hasn't answerd the questions
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7702841.stm
I assume you also know this to be the case and will be following it up?
'Nats' made clear that people who tell tails out of school can expect the worst he can deliver. So when the public see people working hard /not/ tell any tails whatsoever, one can only wonder what that person is being threatened with...
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"The reason there are hardly any Labour supporters on these blogs is because there are hardly any Labour supporters. Why? You know why: the Labour party is diseased and dying."
Exactly right - but it's New Labour we are talking about. The Labour Party as we knew and understood and respected it is long deceased and replaced by an empty creed which has no moral or idealistic or political raison d'etre except the exercise of power and as such it has no ideas and no ambitions worth debating. New Labour is Margaret Thatcher's greatest triumph and a completely new left wing political body will have to be forged
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264 "You are against repression, so am I."
Well, I think what unites us is a more constructive way to spend our time than *personal* digs and sniping, so if you'd like to discuss the notion of cuurent and local repression and responses to it, then I'd be happy to read your thoughts on the subject - from any point in the pyramid of power that you'd like to take the topic from.
And, just in case anyone is asking, I do believe this is very much on topic.
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#265 grandantidote
If you hear the same arguments against labour every day, it is because labour continue to make precisely the same mistakes every day - over and over.
If you don't like it, I guess you could take a break until labour change their current mistakes for a whole new set, and then you can come back and hear people complain about labours new mistakes...
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I can well understand why the Scots would be worried about the future of Scottish banking.
One thing puzzles me. Although BoS was taken over by Halifax, it retained the right to print and issue Scottish money. That's an historic "right".
What I don't know is whether they stopped issuing notes recently.
After all, if they are or may be effectively brankrupt (not having the funds available to sustain themselves versus the demands upon them), how could they support the statement about "promising to pay" if people actually turned up with all the notes they've issued...
I never understood why Scottish bank notes were issued by 3 commercial banks, while in the UK, currency is issued by a non-commercial central bank.
If BoS issued notes when they couldn't cover the funds, doesn't that amount to fraud?
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#264 oldnat wrote:
"Can I make a suggestion now? That everyone stops thinking Labour/ Conservative/ LibDem/ SNP/ whatever"
That's so sensible, I'm surprised it wasn't moderated as being "off topic"!
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#270 sneckedagain
"New Labour is Margaret Thatcher's greatest triumph and a completely new left wing political body will have to be forged "
But it won't happen in England without a major shift to their political system.
The greatest favour we could do our southern friends is to leave them alone to reconstruct their political system in their own image.
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My #273
Before you say it, yes, I realise I should have said that "in England there is a central bank" - NOT in the UK...
Sorry to those north of the wall...
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#273 fairlyopenmind
It's not just the 3 Scottish banks. 4 Northern Irish banks also issue their own banknotes.
"These note issues have to be backed pound for pound by Bank of England notes. Owing to the combined size of these issues – well over a billion pounds – it would be cumbersome for the Bank to hold ordinary Bank of England notes as cover. Instead, special one million and one hundred million pound notes - known as Giants and Titans - are used." (source - The Committee of Scottish Clearing Bankers)
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#274 fairlyopenmind
That suggestion was made by conspiracy2012.
I simply pointed out that many of us don't identify our politics through a party.
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I am AMAZED at the sheer lack of substance in the Labour attacks in the campaign visits. 'The North Britisher 'Scotsman' even refers to it as a 'savaging'?
Correct me if I'm wrong - but the journalism should be in context of what was said, no?
So - we could perhaps attribute Darling's weekend interview as one where he was 'savaged'.
But let's look at Brown's 'savaging' here. Let's summarise.
'SNP make wrong decisions. They are letting Scotland down. SNP only talk about oil. Small is bad, small countries cannot cope. Scotland is stronger in the union. We understand these are bad times. We make good decisions. We make fair decisions. The SNP make wrong judgments. The SNP make wrong decisions - about big things. We make the right decisions. Labour make the right decisions'.
Scary back-beat, huh? Has anyone ever read/seen 1984? Amusing to think that Orwell may have pondered a Brown like character when he was listening to the wild moor winds off his croft in Barnhill, Jura, so many years ago.
People, especially the people of Glenrothes. Forget the Labour spin. Forget any local quibbles they are trying to manipulate and emphasise. Was everything plain-sailing in the previous Lab-council? Really?
Look at the BIGGER picture. Look at the words. Look at the lies.
Pull it apart.
The SNP are NOT only oil driven. The UK NEEDS oil for war and other reasons.
Dozens and DOZENS of small countries are coping, quite happily, unaffected by debt - as this UK is - right now.
Gordon Brown has made HUGE, ENORMOUS, COLD and FAR-REACHING mistakes on a truly GLOBAL scale that have directly contributed to the position in the first place.
Browns words are empty - completely vacant of substance. The comments about the SNP are sound bites, with no references, and certainly no degree of truth. What bad decisions?
The decision to fight unrequired nuclear weapons and power-stations? The decision to fight unfair council tax? The decision to complain, formally, about the influence of London led media? School meals? Prescription charges?
If this is what a minority SNP government can do, with a rabid unionist pravda-esque media backed by dark lords like Mandelson - well, you have to wonder what we could do beyond that.
See through the Labour LIES Scotland. DEFY the unionist press and all their machinations Glenrothes. Look at the bigger picture, and send Mr.Brown back down to where he feels comfortable - in London, England - inventing news to lie to the Scottish nation, whilst absorbing and utilising EVERYTHING this country has to offer on concerns that have NO relevance to Scotland.
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#276 fairlyopenmind
You were right the first time.
The Bank of England (though founded by a Scot) is the UK Central Bank.
Forgive my saying it but sensitivity for the feelings for others in the UK has never been a feature of London Governments (as opposed to generous people like yourself - thanks for the thought).
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#279 Gingerbadger
I agree with much of what you say, but please don't capitalise words. It's the text equivalent of shouting, and doesn't help communication.
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266:
The winning side since you ask.
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TAG, the British government of all flavours has always gone on jollies and tried to do things on the cheap. But, you try taking on big-business and the Civil Service, and see how far you get.
There's two big things in my life that have done damage or annoyed me, and they're nothing new and nobody listens, yet, I don't bang on, and on, and on about it.
It's just a fact of individual and group psychology that change is hard. The fact that you and the Tory boys in here clearly break sound posting rules every day and can't or won't listen is proof enough.
Alistair Darling has similar issues with the banks and their Tory pals. It's like they're inviting him to do what he wants to do regardless of them, or cut them loose. I'm getting the same feeling about this place.
Generally, I find the Labour folks in here have something more interesting to say and a grip on social skills. That's where I'd llike to put my effort from now on. The rest can swivel or take a hike for all I care.
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258Oldnat
I agree with that article. The economy and our finances have been so badly managed by Labour - that this should be an open goal for the Conservatives.
The Conservatives should be bold and set out a plan for recovery.
Brown will continue to wriggle on a hook and launch short term (and expensive policies) to save his career. These policies will be continue to be glitzy but have zero positive effect on recovery of the UK. They are designed for one purpose only - Gordon's survival.
The Conservatives will serve the country better, not by reacting to Brown's tactical mistakes. Far better they outline a clear strategy, which outlines where costs will be trimmed, where additional investment will be spent and regulatory measures etc.....
Maybe the SNP and Conservatives should join up and outline an economic plan for recovery? If Scotland is to go independent it will be made more difficult with Brown's debt.
No doubt the Conservatives would prefer to save the economy first and then hold the debate on independence second.
So I'm saying maybe the plan should be:
1. Save the UK - priority 1
2. Plan our future - priority 2
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I thought the following was one of the more fascinating bits of news over the last couple of days.
"The Office of Rail Regulation said the infrastructure firm will have just under £27bn to spend in the next five years - £2.4bn (8 percent) less than it wanted.
NR has been told it needs to cater for more freight and passengers, as well as deliver major projects like Thameslink.
Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) chief executive Bill Emery told the BBC that he expected NR to improve its overall efficiency by a fifth over the next five years."
We're all concerned about maintaining and improving safety standards on the railway - and seeing better provision to absorb more traffic.
The ORR is actually offering Network Rail less than they want, but critically demands a 20 percent improvement in efficiency...
(crudely, 4 pc per annum).
Brown et al have consistently said that any suggestion of reducing overall tax increase would result in "services being slashed".
Is this a belated recognition that efficiency can allow continued (even improved) service without necessarily adding costs (i.e. tax spend)?
Could we see Brown stealing Tory clothes by having "efficiency with a caring face", rather than that nasty and socially destructive "Tory" efficiency?
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#288
I do try to understand, I seriously do but let's try this one shall we.
Today, it is reported in the Telegraph that an SAS Reserve Officer has resigned over the supply of protective vehicles to soldiers operating in Afghanistan. What the newspaper is doing breaching rules on SAS personnel in respect of confidentiality agreements surprises me but that is another issue for another day.
My main point is that during the last couple of day many of my comments have been removed for being off topic, that is after they were allowed for quite a long time before the decision was made to remove them. Again, I can understand. They were about the situation in Afghanistn.
Now, during the week we had the new Defence Minister, Hutton, I believe, shown in a good light going onto the new vehicles to be delivered to Afghanistan.
Now, newspapers always clear things with the Ministry of Defence before printing because of national security and breaches of the law.
So, let me try this, the MoD hire an awful lot of people to go through the various blogs to see what is being said, sort of like moderaters. Could it possibly be that they don't like Project Griffin and therefore refer my various postings to the moderaters and they are then removed.
In the meantime we had the positive reports about troops returning to parades and loss of life being accepted as just one of those things which soldiers have to cope with. Did 2 Para not have to use these vehicles referred to by the SAS Reserve, why no complaints from them.
So, yes I do go on, but I think with just cause. The reason why the vehicles are not being sent is because the MoD don't want them to be sent just to be handed over to the new Afghan army when we change our role to mentoring.
No doubt this will be moderated out because it is off topic, but I can only hope not. It is what some think that matters it is what we say, in print, that is part of a free and open representative democratic country.
Finally, I am not a Tory, believe it or not. Does anybody seriously think that I can be accomodated by any group, please!
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261 ptpl
You say
"Robinjd has his absurd call an election now on his every post
Sounds very sensible to me!"
"I don't think you understand... RobinJD's suggestion is very sensible."
Oh! I understand alright, so you think that for every post that RobinJD puts on these posts its very sensible to put" call an election now" do you?
Then that would imply that you and the rest of the Tories on here are not very sensible as they dont follow this rather absurd practice why dont you add this to your posts it might add a little substance to them
but not a lot.
Perhaps you would like to enlighten me why you think that it is sensible to end his posts this way.
Who is the remark aimed at, it can't be aimed at the Tories, they dont have the power to call an election.
I am sure that no one in the labour party who are the only people able to call an election are not in the slightest bit interested in the inane remarks made several times a day by a Tory who by his own irrationality diminishes his credibility and is supported by someone with the same syndrome.
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The long awaited day has arrived and the Child Support Agency (CSA) is no more, replaced by the new Child Maintenance Enfrcement Commission. (CMEC).
The CSA has been the governemnts most disastrous agency for years now, with the true scale of it's ineptitude hidden from everyone who does not have to deal with it.
This latest piece of government rebranding has been handled just as badly. Where are the new CMEC agency going to get their staff and computer systems from? New CEO ? Not from the old CSA surely???!???!
They've tinkered with a few of the rules, but the CSA administrative incompetence at the centre of the problem is likely to remain unchanged.
One area is of concern is the new fast track approach to getting debt collectors involved. Whilst this is a good idea in theory, the poor administrative systems undoubtedly mean that more people will wrongly have their homes invaded by debt collectors as of result admin mistakes.
Not that the government are advertising this change to any great degree. The CSA website does not give any results for a search of "CMEC", and the parentscentre website forums, which is much valued source of information has been closed "for maintenance" for ages and closed now for "audit".
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288 CEH
"swivel or take a hike for all I care" -
are these Zen buddism phrases Charles ?
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277. oldnat
Lewis in sussex issues its own bank notes too -- however as there are only £10,000 worth in circulation, the £10,000 of state notes that cover them are held in a safe deposit box somewhere...
However most of the notes have aparantly disappeared, collected by tourists...
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270 sneckedagain, You say.
"The reason there are hardly any Labour supporters on these blogs is because there are hardly any Labour supporters. Why? You know why: the Labour party is diseased and dying."
"Exactly right - but it's New Labour we are talking about. The Labour Party as we knew and understood and respected it is long deceased and replaced by an empty creed which has no moral or idealistic or political raison d'etre except the exercise of power and as such it has no ideas and no ambitions worth debating. New Labour is Margaret Thatcher's greatest triumph and a completely new left wing political body will have to be forged "
Now I wonder were they found you, names not familiar.
You old chap are talking out of the back of your neck but then there's not to much unusual about a Tory doing that, there is no point in writing on here the things you would like to be true,
The labour party are strong and resolute
and will take no lessons from the emasculated tory party that have no policies.
What they say they have they change as the wind blows they have two figureheads who have failed miserably much to the disapointment of the old Tories. they have tried four leaders since labour came to power and not one has scratched the suface of the labour party.
It would not surprise me if the present incumbents are not removed either before or shortly after the next election as neither Cameron or Osbourne have made any worthwhile contribution to the Tory cause, other than Camerons rather excitable outbusts at PMQs and Gordon brown has got the measure of this rather excitable young man as has Darling over Osbourne.
No, we dont need your advice or heavily biased opinions about how the labour party operates if we did then your lot would have been in power for the last eleven years with disasterous results , so before you concern your self with the labour party I suggest you put your own house in order.
The reason that many labour supporters have either moved from these blogs or are biding their time is because of the unreasonable self opinionated feeding frenzy that has developed on these blogs
even to the point were the blog master is
being insulted on a daily basis.
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BROWN IN GLENROTHES?
Why, why, why?????
All he talks about are the SNP.
Does he secretly admire them?
He is the most negative man ever, both in the dour look, the totally uninspired speaker ever, and do we really believe that he believes he is a FIFER with that middle England phoney accent?? He tries hard to lose his Kirkcaldy accent with words like ENCIRRAGE rather than encourage, WIRRLD rather than world, but he always falls down eventually.
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297. grandantidote
Good morning, grandantidote,
Time to pull the old lion's tail!
I think one of the real reason that most of the bloggers appear to be tories, or against Nu Labour is because the contented don't write letters. In the good old days, when "The Times" was a proper broadsheet, the letters were full of complaint and outrage. Can't recall anybody writing to say how pleased they were with anything. All the old colonels and codgers who wrote were full of whinging and furor. Same goes for the "Daily Worker" which was bought alongside the "Times" in my father's household to compare and contrast. There could be found the same moaners and disenchanted, but these were armchair commies and so-called intellectuals.
It is in the nature of the discontented to compain, and the British public is excellent at mumbling but not actually doing anything about it. No revolutions, no real action, just "I will write a letter to the papers (blog)"
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#297 grandantidote
Funny how you said sneckedagain is talking out of the back of his neck - just because he doesn't share your views. This is exactly what I was referring to in my last post, which has completely passed you by (yet again).
Anyway - you said....
No, we dont need your advice or heavily biased opinions about how the labour party operates if we did then your lot would have been in power for the last eleven years with disasterous results , so before you concern your self with the labour party I suggest you put your own house in order.
Now, now, GA. According to one of your last posts, everyone is entiled to their opinion.
Mine is this....
"Our lot" have not been in power for the last 11 years with disastrous results, but your lot has. You have at least acknowledged the fact that the results of 11 years of a Labour government ARE disastrous. 'Nuff said, I think.
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conspiracy @ 239
But I will keep stating the terrifying similarity in the hope that more and more members of the British people read the comparison and it serves to help them WAKE UP!!!
Okay, let's do this then - give me a couple of "terrifying similarities" between Britain, as it is today, and George's nightmare vision.
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max @ 109
While I'm not a 'feminist', I support total equality of the sexes
A belief in total equality of the sexes is a pretty good definition of a feminist, Max - no need to be sheepish on the matter because it's a GOOD THING - a Clear Thinking Progressive thing even ...
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balham @ 146
Littlejohn's humour knows no bounds
Yes and it's not just the sheer, turbo charged power of the man's mischief, it's the delicate, almost sly, way in which he turns the reader's expectations upside down - you know, setting us up for a tired and boring cliche but then, right at the end of each joke, subverting it with the bitterest and sweetest of twists. Delicious.
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297 grandantidote
Labour are resolute?
Is that why I can't find any of them on the streets of Glenrothes?
Hiding resolutely I would say.
The only Labour presence in Glenrothes is in the media and once again they are importing activists from England to fight a Scottish election.
You would think that the experience of Glasgow East would have taught them that English activists and English call centres have a very negative effect in Scottish elections.
The people of Scotland have advantages not availble to voters in England. They can vote for the SNP or they can vote for either of the two Scottish Socialist parties which if they could get together (I'm praying) would finish off New Labour in Scotland. The Labour party in Scotland is on its last legs. Believe me.
Should the SNP win Glenrothes on Thursday it will be the greatest triulmph yet. You would have to be in Scotland to recognise the absolute onslaught on the SNP by every aspect of the media.
I expect a win and a final realisation by the remaining doubters that everything has changed and independence is inevitable.
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Brown should win. "Nationalism is an extended form of selfishness." This was an old school debating motion, but it is still true.
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brown @ 238
Not at all. Simply apposite and elegantly phrased.
Or how about rabid hyperbole and phrased using one of the most stale and wearisome cliches around? ... "not a warning but an instruction manual" now let me think, how times have I heard that rolled out just in the last couple of weeks? - fifty? sixty?
It's on a par with such elegant phrases as "I'll take no lessons from the right honourable gentleman opposite" and "Far be it from me to intrude into private grief" - you know the sort of thing. Yawn yawn.
C'mon, let's raise the standard on here.
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The fascism vs socialism (or stalinism) debate above is interesting.
They both seem to stem from opposite ideologies, but the end result is almost always identical, which is why they've come to mean the same thing in most contexts.
However, socialism (or stalinism) seems to intentionally break the economy in order to make everyone dependent on the state, whereas fascism is usually the result of an already broken economy which uses the state as a way to stop chaos but which then gets out of hand due to the control that the state gives itself.
Both systems create a big brother situation, terrorising the population into compliance, and both systems usually end up with economic collapse.
I guess socialism is much more damaging than fascism because it not only destroys the people but it also destroys the economy at the outset and thereby leaves the people 100% dependent on the state; rebellion is almost impossible with socialism (hence why it took so long for the berlin wall to come down) because after a rebellion there's no money/setup to stop the people from starving.
Whereas with fascism the economic system is largely left intact if the fascism hasn't been running for too long, in fact fascism may actually fix a pre-broken economy, and so rebellion can stop it fairly easily.
They're both twisted ideologies/situations, but socialism, once it's been running a few years, is a much more difficult one to break out of. That's the problem that the tories would have in 2010; how to fix the economy after it's been destroyed; it'll take a long time and a lot of pain. This is why labour is so dangerous as their underlying ideology is always doomed to massive economic collapse.
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1. Pre banking bailout, UK government debt is not particularly high (as a pc of GDP) by international standards. That's the case, even when PFI is counted. This is accepted.
2. The increased public spending by the Labour government was mandated by the public in the last 3 general elections. This is democratic.
3. The increase in taxation was necessary in order to finance the higher spending whilst keeping a lid on government borrowing. This was prudent.
4. The reason the above increases are known as "stealth" taxes is because the public were not grown up enough to accept a clear and transparent hike in the headline rates of direct taxation. So, the stealth taxes were necessary.
5. There is waste in governement spending but that is always the case whenever huge sums of money are involved. You see exactly the same in the private sector. Fact, it's worse there, if anything. This is inevitable.
6. The economic crisis is principally the result of excesses in the private sector and the inherent instability of the inefficient and cruelly flawed, free market system. This is unfortunate.
I believe all this to be self evident.
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gordon @ 307
This is why labour is so dangerous as their underlying ideology is always doomed to massive economic collapse.
But Gordon, the economic collapse has been caused (in the main) by free market excess in the USA.
So I'm afraid that I can't quite get where you're coming from.
Come to think of it, where are you coming from?
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re: 309 sagamix
If you want to believe the bbc/labour spin that all our problems were created by the usa and that there was nothing we could have done about any of them (either to limit their damage or to avoid them in the first place), then that's your lookout.
I, however, would like to believe that we as a country have at least some degree of control over our own economy/regulation and government spending/tax regime.
Do you realise how weird it sounds to say that Brown/Labour are the architects of everything good that's ever happened on the planet, but that whenever anything bad ever happens then they have no responsibility whatsoever? You can't have it both ways.
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Interesting reading in the latest IFS report, which compares the financial situation in Britain today to that at the start of the last downturn.
It says "the shortfall between tax revenues and public spending will be 4.4 per cent of economic output this year. That compares with only 1 per cent at the start of the recession under John Major in 1990"
It also says "Government debt is heading for 39.7 per cent of gross domestic product, the IFS calculated - or a record £592billion.
In the last recession, at the end of 1990, public debt was far lower at 26.2 per cent of economic output - or £151billion."
Finally it says "the public finances are weak in comparison with many other countries.
Britain has the 11th highest debt burden of 28 leading countries, and the second-biggest deficit of the G7 economies after the U.S"
So, many thanks to Gordon for his impressive management of the economy which has left us so well-placed to cope with this downturn (that has nothing to do with him by the way!).
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also, sagamix, Barclays trust middle east money more than uk government money, partly because they don't want Brown to control what they do, and partly because they know the uk economy/pound is pretty much finished.
The pound is now almost worthless because even if bbc/labour won't accept the reality of the situation, the international money markets know we're in dire straits and that our leader's plans are destined to cause even more damage.
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300 shellingout
Funny how you said sneckedagain is talking out of the back of his neck - just because he doesn't share your views. This is exactly what I was referring to in my last post, which has completely passed you by (yet again).
I think that I more than answered your 235 post with my 260 post perhaps you should read it again only this time put your specs on.
In my part of the woods to say that someone is talking out the back of their neck is merely to say that there talking nonsense if it offends your sensibility then try" talking nonsense", there now! do you feel better, I have been called far far worse things and had much more unpleasant explicit remarks made to me about the content of some of my posts.
You say
"Now, now, GA. According to one of your last posts, everyone is entiled to their opinion. "
"Why is it that every comment you post is reasonable, whilst the people who disagree with you are full of rhetoric, silly name calling and drivel. Perish the thought that others may think that you might fit into that category too."
to answer that I said
When did I say that every comment I post on here is reasonable, I am often challenged and I am happy to accept that.
If you want to put me into that category thats you prerogative and if you did then I would be entitled to either agree with you or dispute you inference. As you can.
Time to put the specs on again,
you say
"Our lot" have not been in power for the last 11 years with disastrous results, but your lot has. [You have at least acknowledged the fact that the results of 11 years of a Labour government ARE disastrous.] 'Nuff said, I think."
What I actually said was
No, we dont need your advice or heavily biased opinions about how the labour party operates if we did then your lot would have been in power for the last eleven years with disasterous results
[You have at least acknowledged the fact that the results of 11 years of a Labour government ARE disastrous.]
Where does it say that.
Now I think nuff said.
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304 sneckedagain
Dream on.
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The Centre for Policy Studies argues that the real national debt is actually £1,340 billion, which is 103.5 per cent of GDP
(and that was from an ons web page around a month ago which doesn't include the recent half a trillion or so, or the pending extra borrowing that brown is about to announce)
Nobody believes government statistics as they don't include most of the relevant debt.
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299, mindpheonixrison
Good morning butty as we say in the Welsh valleys.
I think what you say makes a lot of sense, I think labour at the moment have a lot to be content about and perhaps your theory is right but I have to say pheonix these blogs have taken a downward plunge lately as I have said I am only on here now as I am obliged to defend myself , I live in hope that it gets better in the meanwhile "keep your powder dry" my friend.
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I doubt Conspiracy2012 is a serious poster. Why the 2012 reference?. The olympic flame maybe?
Sagamix's annoyance with 1984 references is well known.
This is not a socialist dictatorship or likely to be a fascist dictatorship. Although the poll ratings based on nothing but Camerons charisma are a little worrying. Not that worrying though.
I think the people of Glenrothes with be insulted by this subject being hijacked and used for a flamewar. I hope Scotland don't choose to leave the union and they can get fair treatment in other ways. I live in the North and we have similar London-centric government problems to Scotland and we don't have the privilege of our own parliament. I voted for one. But the tories pretending not to be tories talked us out of it. Don't let them manipulate you Scotland.
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287 sicillian
And which party is that again?.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt
a debt of $189,855 per head (or 376.82% of gdp), and that's just external debt and probably doesn't include the latest bailouts.
whoever's figures you use, we're in deep deep trouble.
It's only the labour party figures which fudge things to be anywhere near manageable; everybody else's figures show that we are in a very very bad state.
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re: 317, dhwilky
I hope Scotland don't choose to leave the union and they can get fair treatment in other ways.
What could be fairer than self-governance? Fool.
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Nick,
so Gordon Brown has now gone to the middle east to get some cash has he. Now that he has left Glenrothes have you gone with him?
As for the topic about the bye-election can we ask why should any midle east oil rich state try to save the western economies?
The reason why I ask is that it would almost be the same as America trying to save the German economy during WWII before America entred the war on behalf of their allies. Does Brown not understand the politics in these countries, of course they are going to give support to countries which are in conflict with Moslems.
Gordon Brown gives the impression that the banks are terrible in paying money to their staff probably in accordance with contractural agreements. The banks have not been nationalised, none of them have. To this person a nationalised industry is one where the staff and managers are state employees, paid for by the state and controlled, by the state. They should also sign the Official secrets Act. Are the staff at these so called nationalised banks now nothing other than civil servants?
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I'm all for GB to Lead us untl the next GE. I will then be very happy to place my x next to my choice in who will lead us. I know that democracy will not allow labour, as incumbent, to twist the system, or to 'cook the books' (lets not go there!) to ensure they somehow, amazingly, win.
Cos if they do, the uprising and rebellion will be worse than any previously undertaken, and we will slide back into the dark ages.
To stay on topic, I hope the SNP give LAbour a great big bloody nose!
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re: 322, runskippyrun
To stay on topic, I hope the SNP give LAbour a great big bloody nose!
Well said. It'll go nicely with their Glasgow East black eye!
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You guys have been busy this morning.
I think you need to be reminded that while you see Glenrothes in terms of its impact on your political structure, we see it in terms of ours.
Grandantidote's #270 was interesting, as he assumed that sneckedagain was a Tory, and not the Scots Socialist (ie not New Labour) that he is. Grandy, you have a uni-dimensional view of politics which is quite meaningless in Scotland.
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#290 Jonathon-Cook
"Maybe the SNP and Conservatives should join up and outline an economic plan for recovery?"
Not a chance!
Scotland has a different "take" on politics from most of England.
The SNP is a centre-left party because that's where the collectivist centre of Scottish politics is. There's very little that separates any of the 4 main Scottish parties in social and economic policy. There is actually more difference between the Scottish and English Tories than between Scottish Tories and the SNP or Lib-Dems up here.
Labour is the problem in Scotland - not because it is Socialist, but because it is no longer a Social Democratic Party at all. It slavishly follows the dictates of the UK Labour Party, regardless of whether these policies are best for Scotland.
As I've said before, most of the political argument in Scotland works on a different dimension - centralism v decentralism. Hence our concentration on constitutional issues.
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#305 numserfan wrote:
Brown should win. "Nationalism is an extended form of selfishness." This was an old school debating motion, but it is still true.
Some forms of nationalism can be exactly that, but schoolboy debates are seldom helpful in the real world.
For example, you have twice called for a "national enquiry" into the banking debacle. (I'm presuming that by "national" you mean UK).
I'm at a loss to understand why you think in such simplistic "UK Nationalist" terms when the causes are international. The international Conference due to be held in Washington following European/Asian agreement is much more likely to be effective.
The UK is really far too wee and insignificant to be a big player - best leave it to the big boys and girls.
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#317 dhwilkinson
"I live in the North and we have similar London-centric government problems to Scotland and we don't have the privilege of our own parliament. I voted for one. But the tories pretending not to be tories talked us out of it. Don't let them manipulate you Scotland."
I suspect it must be annoying for people in the North of England when some Scots speak politically negatively of "the English".
When we do that it's careless shoddy speech because it actually means "London and the South East" (unless we're talking football!).
While England's internal affairs should, of course, be your own business, it seems to me that the lack of a powerful political body in the North of England virtually ensured the destruction of Halifax as a financial centre.
The Tories persuaded sufficient Scots to vote in insufficient numbers for the early Scottish Assembly proposals (they promised they would give us something better), so I sympathise with your predicament.
Maybe an extended period of opposition will allow Labour members in the North of England to create a more powerful decentralist section, and to limit London Labour's power over you.
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Ummm - I've really no idea why a series of my mails earlier were nipped by the Mod. My assumption was that this was due to using an external website address - which I removed - merely citing a resource people might want to visit.
I then apologised to oldnat at #283 for the caps - sterling point.
Both were rejected.
Why? I'm all for moderation - but would appreciate a response or rationale in each case.
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Search for 'Documentary # 1 - Gordon Brown's Cover Up' on youtube.
Very interesting insight for anyone pondering voting behaviour in the future!
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gordon @ 310 and 312
Do you realise how weird it sounds to say that Brown/Labour are the architects of everything good that's ever happened on the planet, but that whenever anything bad ever happens then they have no responsibility whatsoever? You can't have it both ways.
Don't want it both ways. I accept that Brown was way over praised during the so called good times. Far from being an economic genius, he was just riding his luck. None of that detracts from my analysis of the current situation - if anything it adds to it, no?
Barclays trust middle east money more than uk government money, partly because they don't want Brown to control what they do, and partly because they know the uk economy/pound is pretty much finished.
Wow you have a generous (and, in the light of recent events, rather naive) view of bankers, don't you? Thing is, Barclays are doing it this way in order to protect their right to pay excessive executive remuneration. They've learnt nothing and should be thankful they haven't been nationalised.
The pound is now almost worthless even if bbc/labour won't accept the reality of the situation.
Don't be silly. The pound is worth around 1.6 dollars - a perfectly respectable rate and about what it was 5 years ago. Just a short while ago, all the talk was that GBP was significantly overvalued do you remember?
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re: 328, Gingerbadger
I detect the Black Hand of the unaccountable, wasteful, censorious Beeb in your predicament. They're basically a mini Nu-Lab, complete with a desire to regulate that's stronger than that of a disgruntled librarian. (I wonder if this post'll get through?)
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#328 Gingerbadger
Last night's mods seemed to be supersensitive. The number of posts they were culling on Justin Webb's blog was huge.
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Gingerbadger
The mods were also applying the "no foreign words" rule so that even well-known Latin tags were being stopped.
If you used any Scots words ......!
(Anyway I thought they'd been banned 'cos you'd been on the bevvy!)
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311 Grawth
Could you have been MORE SELECTIVE in your quotes from the IFS Report? NO!
So here's a few more?
"To summarise, both governments presided over a fiscal strengthening in their first 3 years in office followed by a weakening over the following 8. But we should note that Labour has used more of its borrowing to finance capital investment rather than current spending than the Conservatives did."
NB More on investment than revenue.
"On current trends the deficit is likely to be 3.6% of national income this year compared to 2.6% of national income under the Conservatives in 1990–91. This largely reflects the impact of the credit crunch and the falls in the stock and housing markets, rather than budget decisions."
I think this was the point you were making Grawth but an oversight on your part led you to missing off the last sentence - Silly You.
Also if you bear in mind that the Labour years have not benefited from Massive privatisation windfalls and a declining rather than increasing oil revenue BUT we are now going through global (even you must accept that by now) economic events beyond the control of the UK (or any individual country) plus the recent oil spike., then I feel you have nothing at all to crow about and should be thankful that the debt that is there has (as stated in the report) been subtantially spen on investment rather than funding ongoing (funding unemployment) spending.
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#208 PTTP
Yes - it's great that left-leaning papers give such an opportunity to those who disagree with its editorial line (and trolls) the opportunity to comment isn't it. Other newspapers (e.g. the Mail, the Evening Standard) generally delete/refuse to post inconvenient comments.
#312 getrid
"Barclays trust middle east money more than uk government money" - I think the avoiding Government *control* point is the most important here rather than the other one. They would rather accept a worse deal for their owners (shareholders) if it protects the managers bonuses. It's why we need corporate governance reform urgently, to make managers begin to act in shareholders interests.
"The pound is now almost worthless" - The pound has been over-valued against other currencies recently. It's fallen 20% against the Euro over the past year - not exactly worthless. Though if you want to find a home for your 'worthless pounds', there's one here!
#315 getrid
"The Centre for Policy Studies argues that the real national debt is actually ?1,340 billion, which is 103.5 per cent of GDP"
It's an interesting report from the CPS, that is true. But it's geared towards trying to find the biggest figure possible for debt (the CPS is one of the 'thinking' arms generating policy ideas and attacks on Labour for the Conservative Party isn't it)
Most of this "increase in debt" versus Government figures is made up of public sector pension liabilities (which CPS calculate as 1.071 trillion pounds - 73.3% of GDP or 43,893 pounds per person).
As the CPS note "Estimating public sector pension liabilities is a notoriously difficult task. Calculations are affected by assumptions which have to be made on individuals’ pension tenure, their final
salaries, the method of indexing pension
benefits and the longevity of public sector
workers". It's quite easy to make these seem high by changing the assumptions to suit your argument, as CPS appear to have done (CPS also note the latest Government estimates of public sector pension liabilities is 761 billion pounds in March 2007).
Another point is that these are not going to put a lot of pressure on Government expenditure. The Government's latest Long Term Public Finance Report says that public sector pension payments are currently 1.5% of GDP. They are projected to peak at 2% of GDP in 2027/28, falling back to 1.8% over the longer-term. This of course assumes the Government won't alter policy to increase public sector retirement ages or make benefits less generous, which I think is wrong.
Finally, public sector pension liabilities were definitely not zero in 1997. To say that the existence of these liabilities demonstrates Labour's irresponsibility is quite misleading isn't it. I think most liabilities that will hit in the medium-term would have accrued under a Conservative Government wouldn't they?
But you are right in the sense that a truly independent source of financial statistics (i.e. not HMT) will be valuable, as it will stop misleading use of statistics from both sides and enhance trust in the system.
#319 getrid
"a debt of $189,855 per head (or 376.82% of gdp), and that's just external debt and probably doesn't include the latest bailouts"
Nice figures - makes a good headline.
2 points from a quick look:
Firstly, these are gross figures - in these figures the World has a massive external debt of 51.8 trillion dollars (or 8,000 dollars per head). Unless we owe this money to Martians (or people from Uranus, eh PTTP), the position would not look as bad if we used net figures.
Secondly, much of this is corporate debt associated with the City of London (and the heavy leveraged hedge funds we have cultivated there). Personal debt is around 1 trillion pounds in the UK and Government debt is 0.6 trillion pounds (i.e. personal and government together are 27,000 pounds per head).
However, it still seems high. Have you got a source that analyses what this means by a serious researcher or economist (rather than a journalist)?
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oldnat@
"....I suspect it must be annoying for people in the North of England when some Scots speak politically negatively of "the English".
When we do that it's careless shoddy speech because it actually means "London and the South East" (unless we're talking football!).
Yes it is quite annoying when you're caught in the middle.
"Maybe an extended period of opposition will allow Labour members in the North of England to create a more powerful decentralist section, and to limit London Labour's power over you...."
That would be another pointless 1980s style division in the labour party and would not be helpful from my point of view. Some form of Proportional representation would be more representative of the whole country. Whatever that country ends up being. Not just marginal seats in the South and Midlands of England.
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re: 335, balhamu
Too bad you don't pay as much attention to the legitimate criticisms in the comment itself (208) rather than it's location on the interweb. Hey ho, typical Nu-Lab distraction techniques...
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#319 getrid
Been doing some more digging on your "external debt" figure.
The Bank of England have published analyses of the UK External Balance Sheet in the past. The most recent report I can find on their website is from 2004 The External Balance Sheet of the UK: Recent Developments, Elliot and Wong Min, Winter 2004.
If you look at Chart 1 on p3 of this, you will see our assets and liabilities almost balance (3.55 trillion pounds external assets, 3.6 trillion pounds external liabilities).
2.4 trillion pounds of our 3.6 trillion external assets/liabilities (67%) were classified as "other investment liabilities). 75% of this (i.e. 50% of all external assets/liabilities) were owned by the banking sector. 80% of this (i.e. 40% of all external assets/liabilities) was due to non-resident owned banks who locate in the UK. It is completely unrealistic to call it a call on the UK's resources - it is because foreign financial institutions have located in London and conduct their business here.
Since 1990, the external assets/liabilities has increased by £2.6 trillion, and half of this expansion was due to 'other investment liabilities. The authors note that this "probably reflects the success
of the United Kingdom as an international financial centre, particularly for cross-border banking". So not necessarily a negative thing - it only is if you think that we should discourage financial firms from locating here and close down the City of London (not a position normally held by right-wingers).
I suspect the continued increase since 2004 in our external assets/liabilities has been due to the success of the City to a larger extent than 1990-2003 (e.g. hedge funds choosing to locate here).
So. what to make of all this? The figure that the CIA gives for external liabilities (AND ASSETS) makes a nice headline for you doesn't it, it's a big number (over 100,000 dollars - wow) and includes the word "liability" (that's like debt right).
However, experts say that it is due to the success of the city and that it is not debt at all and to call it such is completely wrong
Try again.
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Voters of Scotland resist
The horror of Brown's 'clunking fist'
Because under Brown
We've all been let down,
To vote Lab you'd have to be p[censored]
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OldNat #327
Not for the first time you paint a picture of an England divided between the affluent South East (and London) and the rest of the country. Even if there is some truth in this it rather smacks of a "divide and rule" tactic. Do you honestly believe that an independent Scotland would be any different? The remote highlands and islands have always been a poor relation to the wealthier central belt - under an independent Scottish government nothing would change. Would you then support those regions of Scotland in seeking a political independence from the parliament at Holyrood in the way that you do encourage the English to "beak away" from the South East. Somehow I doubt it.
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#337 ptpp
I thought your point was "Even commenters on the (left-wing) Guardian agree with me, therefore I am right".
Apologies. Response below (just to humour you)
The comment itself says familiar things that right-wing posters on this blog say (btw did you post the comment. If so, well done. Congratulations).
When it's time to vote I'll remember that Labour:
Sold 50% of our gold reserves at the market bottom prices (hindsight is a wonderful thing - and we diversified into assets that make an annual return)
Lied about the borrowing levels -what about PFI (PFI makes little difference) (I agree that including PFI-debt makes debt 42.6% of GDP, above the 40% ceiling, and so is misleading)
Spent millions on SPIN and consultants to protect Labour (Labour-protecting aspects are paid for by the Labour party; the rest is expenditure that organisation is the private sector make too to inform people of the Government's message)
Gave the EU billions in cash that we now need to support our own economy (so we should leave the EU right?)
Promises millions of overseas aid, knowing we can never deliver it. (haven't we delivered it?)
Trashed the private pension schemes of millions to protect the state scheme which cannot be supported. (made a minor tax change. And we should scrap the state pension right?)
The introduction of HIPs adding to the slow down of house sells (HIPs threatens solicitors fees on endless surveys, hence the interest groups resisting it)
Broken promises on the EU vote. Not allowing a vote on the EU. (good point - though is the new document a constitution or just tidying up of treaties - seems a semantic point)
Loans for peerages. (why didn't the CPS prosecutre after a lengthy police investigation then?)
MP's expenses. (that's why Conservatives voted to abolish all MP expenses right?)
Stealth taxes on everything (isn't Conservative policy to shift tax away from direct taxes on income and wealth to indirect - or stealth to use your terminology- taxes on expenditure)
10p tax fiasco and other tax U turns (or alternatively the Government listens to people, which is positive isn't it?)
University fees and encouraging unsuitable students into debt to reduce the unemployment figures. (why should dustman, people who work in McDonalds etc pay tax to support middle-class students in improving their earning potential Should we not encourage children into higher education right?)
Iraq war and the fiasco on weapons of mass destruction. (ok - fair point)
Harmans positive discrimination war on the White British Male. (examples of this please?)
Broken "golden rules" now discarded by Gordon. (ok)
Largest deficit after Hungary and Pakistan (source this if you can make some figures up)
Encouraging mass immigration and not knowing how many people are here. (have we ever known how many people were here since the Conservatives abolished entry and exit checks)
Murderers on the Streets. (yeah - bring back capital punishment)
No prison places. (fair criticism)
Weak law making. (I thought the normal right-wing criticism was the opposite that they make too many laws that are too strong and conflict with human rights)
Big Brother (that's Channel 4's fault) and losing our private data regualary (but not as regularly as the private sector. But you are right the Civil Service should take more care of personal data)
Non existent NHS dentists. (why should the NHS provide cosmetic dentistry though)
Fiddled figures on crime, education, unemployment, MRSA & C Diff e (no fiddles at all. Just says the wrong thing if you want to claim crime has risen or unemployment has risen. The facts are inconvenient for you, that is all)
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#305 numserfan
"Brown should win. 'Nationalism is an extended form of selfishness.'"
But Brown is a British Nationalist (though even I would concede that NuLab are less awful than the BNP).
Were the Australians, Canadians or Irish wrong to demand home rule?
Self-determination is a key principle of the UN Charter and was lauded by both NuLab and Tory over Kosovo. Perhaps they didn't go to your school.
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sagamix @ 302, wrote:
Most feminists (as in 'wimmin') would not define 'feminism' as "total equality of the sexes".
There is always an underlying political slant.
Sad but true.
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316. grandantidote wrote:
Good morning butty as we say in the Welsh valleys.
I think what you say makes a lot of sense, I think labour at the moment have a lot to be content about
Nice expression, butty, but never heard it before in your context. It sounds waem and friendly. Butties in this house are a bit of nice streaky between two slices of bread. Just the thing this wretched "global warming" weather. Alas, after all that mateiness, I must once again tweak your tail. How can labour have a lot to be content about? Self-delusion. In any case, contentment for any political party is a very foolish thing, one should always be self critical, and an emotion lacking in this self gratifying mob. Keep the powder warm!
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#340 MalcolmW2
On the contrary.
I have frequently posted that I don't want to replace London-centric thinking with its Edinburgh equivalent.
That's the essence of decentralist thinking, and why I believe so strongly in subsidiarity.
The UK is a highly centralist country, and successive Labour and Tory Governments have imposed their ideologically determined systems of local government in the different parts of the UK.
The Concordat between the Scottish Government and COSLA has been the first major shift away from Central Government trying to micro-manage all aspects of the country, that I remember. It's why highly centralist Labour opposed it so bitterly.
Yhere is an alternative, and you will have seen it frequently articulated on Brian Taylor's blog.
I think the English would be wise to follow such a model - but that's a matter for them.
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#306 sagamix
"Or how about rabid hyperbole and phrased using one of the most stale and wearisome cliches around?"
No, just fair comment about their authoritarianism, which is why I dislike the NuLab Tories somewhat more than the BluLab Tories.
"'not a warning but an instruction manual' now let me think, how times have I heard that rolled out just in the last couple of weeks? - fifty? sixty?"
To whom should I have been listening to hear it? Virtually all I have been able to hear this week is unionist spin in NuLab's favour, mainly from auntie. Some of STV's reporting has been a tiny bit less biased but you have to listen hard to notice.
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re: 341, balhamu
A number of your responses are dodges, but at least you have shown that you are not a Nu-Lab drone. (Unless you're pretending to dissent to raise your credibility, but that's doubtful: the average Nu-lab voter is too dumb to think of that).
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re: 343, MaxSceptic
You're right, there's loads of subdivisions of 'feminism', some of which are after equality (which is fair enough, though it's arguable that they have it already) and some of which are clearly based on centuries-old grievances real or imagined.
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#347 pttp
"a number of your responses are dodges"
Each of those statements in your post to the Guardian would require a couple of paragraphs to respond to properly. I don't think I dodged many - though a one sentence response (like a one sentence statement in your original post) maybe doesn't sum up things well.
"at least you have shown that you are not a Nu-Lab drone"
Thanks. I must be the only person with a left-of-centre view who you have given the accolade of not calling a "Nu-Lab drone". It means a lot to me.
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324 oldnat
"Grandantidote's #270 was interesting, as he assumed that sneckedagain was a Tory, and not the Scots Socialist (ie not New Labour) that he is. Grandy, you have a uni-dimensional view of politics which is quite meaningless in Scotland."
Scotland is not another planet its one simple step from England the mindset doesn't change in ten paces, I'm Welsh and the same thing applies there my nation is the UK and I suspect that is the case for many Scotsmen and women. but to correct you I am not new Labour or old Labour I am a socialist that supports the labour movement as opposed to any other British party
You know the old saying if he writes like a Tory and he thinks like a Tory then he almost certainly is a Tory.
So your telling me that the passage below was written by a socialist, a socialist of any discription would not have written that, he may well be a supporter of SNP and he may well have you fooled you.
A member of Ukip or the BNP would have been proud to put his name to that passage. He never knew or understood the labour party or he would know that he's talking rubbish. this socialist government has done more to further the cause of socialism in this country than any previous socialist government and a damnsite more for Scotland than any one before even through I am not a Scot I hope they chose wiselyand dont allow anyone into bullying or coercing them into taking short term measures which could harm Scotland for generations.
He wrote
" but it's New Labour we are talking about. The Labour Party as we knew and understood and respected it is long deceased and replaced by an empty creed which has no moral or idealistic or political raison d'etre except the exercise of power and as such it has no ideas and no ambitions worth debating. New Labour is Margaret Thatcher's greatest triumph and a completely new left wing political body will have to be forged. "
Very socialist I must say.
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#308 sagamix
"The increased public spending by the Labour government was mandated by the public in the last 3 general elections. This is democratic"
Only if you believe that the peculiar institution of our 1872 plurality voting system is democratic in a situation with strong party discipline and allegiances. Not me.
What it means is that some of the views of the quarter of the electorate who supported NuLab prevail over the three quarters of the rest rest of us.
That is not democracy in my book and nor in every other member state of the EU.
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You Sir are a lemming! Very remeniscent of those who used to follow Chairman Mao. Passionate but deluded. I'll leave it up to you as to whom I speak of.
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#317 dhwilkinson
"I think the people of Glenrothes with be insulted by this subject being hijacked and used for a flamewar."
Possibly so, but likely not.
I think they feel most insulted by the constant pro-unionist spin in the broadcast and printed media and are relieved to find that they can still express themselves on the internet, although even that outlet has been severely restricted - perhaps just for the by-election - by the Herald and the Scotsman.
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re: 349, balhamu
It wasn't my post and I never claimed it was, which is why I credited it as being from the Guardian website. I thought it a good summary of NuLieBore's failings.
Thanks. I must be the only person with a left-of-centre view who you have given the accolade of not calling a "Nu-Lab drone". It means a lot to me.
You're welcome... I suppose.
Going off on a tangent here, but you'd be surprised how many people's political beliefs change from left to right over time, but rarely from right to left. Take Kingsley Amis for example, he was a Marxist at uni but became a hardcore right-winger as he grew into middle age. Does anyone know of any famous people who have switched from right to left?
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344 mindphoenixrison
Yes Butty is a friendly term its derived from the old canal narrow boats were one had an engine and the other one didn't the one with the engine would tow usually alongside the one without, the one without being called the butty boat, the expression, particularly in Wales became the name for a friend or in some cases a wife for obvious reasons.
"How can labour have a lot to be content about? "well aweek or two ago labour were many points behind the Tories in the opinion polls now they have cut that in half, labours policies regarding the recession have been adopted around the World and the look like they will be the answer in the long run.
Gordon Brown has come out of his shell and is seen universally as the man for the job. in the mean time DV and GO are being sidelined and are at last being shown how shallow they are, So I think thats enough for labour supporter to feel a little more content than they were a short time ago, no delusions my friend just the tide turning quietly as I knew it would. Keep your flintlock loaded!old chum.
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#350 grandantidote
Just what kind of socialism do you practice?
Do you honestly think this current government is socialist?
If you think that New Labour bears any resemblance to the Labour party of old and has "done more to further the cause of socialism in this country than any previous socialist government and a damnsite more for Scotland than any one before" you should ask members of the old Labour party what they think of the current crop, and what they have done for Scotland.
Could you please clarify on what you base this statement on "more for Scotland than any one before"?
Somehow I don't think Tony Benn would think of them as being socialist in the least.
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re: 356, ScotInNotts
grandantidote's posts are definitely getting madder and madder: that socialist remark is a dead giveaway. Maybe we are witnessing his decline, or maybe the real grandy (who has cottoned on to Nu-Lab's lies at last) is tied up in the cellar while some Nu-Lab apparatchik uses his username to further the party's evil aims...
Return the real grandy to us, NuLieBore! We're on to you!
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#350 grandantidote
While I'm not a socialist myself, sneckedagain's condemnation of NuLab, as an abandonment of everything that the old Labour Party stood for, resonates strongly.
Any decent Socialist would find nothing in the Blair/Brown/Miliband/Mandelson dogma which reflected their views.
Your country is the UK, and so you have little choice of party.
Fortunately, those of us who have a different vision of the world have more alternatives.
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#350 grandantidote
"Very socialist I must say."
Until and unless Scottish NuLab politicos actually listen to people like sneckedagain, their cause in Scotland is on a long-term slide to oblivion in Scotland, irrespective of the outcome of this particular by-election.
Labour long relied on the fear of Thatcherite Toryism to keep the Scots in check, but their embracing of it themselves in NuLab and genuine left-wing alternatives have broken the spell and NuLab are reduced to fear tactics trying to persuade the Scots that they are incapable of governing themselves.
As a home ruler but not a nationalist, I know who I am more likely to support.
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Gordon Brown's party of mugs
Behave like they're all on drugs,
We'll never give in
To Nu-Labour's spin,
We'll pour salt on the Nu-Labour slugs!
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#354 pttp
People have generally made their mind up about where they would stand on a simple two-dimensional political dimension once they are in their mid-20s, so those truly changing their view would be in the minority.
Does anyone know of any famous people who have switched from right to left?
Lots of non-famous people did in 1997. But I guess if a celebrity did it that makes it more of note than millions of people.
Lots of politicians did as well (e.g. Quentin Davies and Shaun Woodward), but I think this is more 'saving their political skin/quenching their thirst for power than any change in view.
The Conservatives claim to have shifted to the left on a number of issues (see e.g. Cameron's conversion to Polly Toynbee's ideas on poverty and income inequality - i.e. relative poverty is important, Cameron claiming that Conservatives are the party of the NHS etc)
Boris Johnson seems to be in the process of doing so in London at the moment.
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#352 sicilian29
It would be helpful if you could identify which type of lemming -
St Lawrence Island Collared Lemming (Dicrostonyx exsul), Northern Collared Lemming (Dicrostonyx groenlandicus), Ungava Collared Lemming (Dicrostonyx hudsonius), Victoria Collared Lemming (Dicrostonyx kilangmiutak), Nelson's Collared Lemming (Dicrostonyx nelsoni), Ogilvie Mountain Collared Lemming (Dicrostonyx nunatakensis), Richardson's Collared Lemming (Dicrostonyx richardsoni), Bering Collared Lemming (Dicrostonyx rubricatus), Arctic Lemming (Dicrostonyx torquatus), Unalaska Collared Lemming (Dicrostonyx unalascensis), Wrangel Lemming (Dicrostonyx vinogradovi), Amur Lemming (Lemmus amurensis), Norway Lemming (Lemmus lemmus), Siberian Brown Lemming (Lemmus sibiricus), North American Brown Lemming (Lemmus trimucronatus), Wood Lemming (Myopus schisticolor), Northern Bog Lemming (Synaptomys borealis), Southern Bog Lemming (Synaptomys cooperi)?
As far as I know, there is no Sicilian Lemming, but I am willing to be corrected on this issue.
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The Labour revival I think will prove to be a little like Hull City's performance against Manchester United today. Manchester United establish a substantial lead and then miss a number of opportunities to increase their lead only to become complacent and allow The Opposition to restablish a foothold in the game. The final result is still a win however although not by such a large margin as that originally perceived. A miss is as good as a mile as they say!
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353 browndov
I obviously have no problems with anyone talking on topic. My comment was made about a few people who where trying to bring up 1984 conspiracy theories.
I doubt there is any conspiracy to Spin the Unionist cause. I don't live in Scotland or read its news papers but I think maybe Scottish nationalism isn't as popular as some on here make out.
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power_to_the_ppl @354, asks:
Does anyone know of any famous people who have switched from right to left?
Only if they're regressing.
Someone once said: 'Anyone who was not a socialist at 20, hasn't got a heart. Anyone who is still a socialist at 40, hasn't got a brain'.
(I guess I've always been heartless).
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re: 362, oldnat
Southern Bog Lemming (Synaptomys cooperi)
So that's what Yvette is.
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Another reason for many right-wingers here to resent the EU
Does anyone know if this law was passed?
And if it was, does anyone want to do an FOI request to the BBC about the number of posts from Conservative Central Office? And report the findings to the EU.
Would definitely make an interesting backdrop to an election where Labour are undoubtedly going to be criticised for 'spin'.
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#361 balhamu
I'd have to go with power_to_the_ppl on that. As sneckedagain implies, in 1997 it wasn't the people that changed but the party, as NuLab became "Thatcherism with a human face" while Tebbitt & co were still taken seriously.
Since then, their majorities have allowed them to ignore their manifesto commitments while they have drifted further right so that now they are right of the "official" Tories thanks to the huge amount of authoritarian baggage surviving from their Socialist days.
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#366 pttp
I'd have put money on you being the only one to actually read my list, and make a political point!
My own favourite was Sarah Palin - Unalaska Collared Lemming (Dicrostonyx unalascensis)
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oldnat @ 362:
I like the sound of The Siberian Brown lemming. I refer of course to grandantidote.
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Bye bye for now peeps, pttp's off to a party!
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#364 dhwilkinson
"I doubt there is any conspiracy to Spin the Unionist cause. I don't live in Scotland or read its news papers but I think maybe Scottish nationalism isn't as popular as some on here make out."
Conspiracy is arguably too strong, but there's a pro-unionist consensus among the broadcast and print media you would find hard to deny.
For example, the top "Scotland politics" story on this site has been Brown will 'fight for every vote' all day. That does actually mention a little about the other parties but clearly gives "Duff" Gordon top billing. Or look at STV's
Gordon Brown blasts SNP's 'wrong decisions' where again there is no question who gets the coverage, especially if you listen to the commentator at the end of the movie.
Yet these are examples from public service broadcasters who are supposed to be neutral. If you look at the politics sections of the unionist Herald or Scotsman, you'll be hard pressed to know that the SNP are in with a shout.
And don't underestimate the support for the SNP, even from those who may not want independence immediately but full home rule. In the YouGov poll ended 24 Oct, NuLab were ahead only in voting intention for the Westmidden general election.
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314 grandantidote
A particularly weak riposte
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#351Brownedov wrote:
"Only if you believe that the peculiar institution of our 1872 plurality voting system is democratic in a situation with strong party discipline and allegiances. Not me.
What it means is that some of the views of the quarter of the electorate who supported NuLab prevail over the three quarters of the rest rest of us.
That is not democracy in my book and nor in every other member state of the EU."
However, there is no common form of democracy across Europe.
I quite like the French approach.
1 Parties/candidates promote their offerings.
2 People vote.
3 "MPs" get elected if they achieve an actual majority.
4 If there's no absolute majority, the top two contenders have a re-run.
5 Then, some majority is discovered.
At least each elected representative can claim that, on a given day, the electorate offered him/her some endorsement.
Doesn't avoid a "hung parliament", but it does avoid a whole bunch of people who were never individually accepted by a majority of those who bother to turn up to vote. (But who still claim to "represent the will of the people"...)
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350
" but it's New Labour we are talking about. The Labour Party as we knew and understood and respected it is long deceased and replaced by an empty creed which has no moral or idealistic or political raison d'etre except the exercise of power and as such it has no ideas and no ambitions worth debating. New Labour is Margaret Thatcher's greatest triumph and a completely new left wing political body will have to be forged. "
Indeed.
A very socialist description of the New Labour empty shell which has possessed the body of what used to be an idealistic, campaigning , socialist movement which everybody of whatever belief could respect for its inherent honesty.
New Labour continues to exist for two reasons. Firstly it has secured a major influence in the media by abandoning socialism and secondly, many decent hard-working supporters cannot bring themselves to look closely at what the party they have worked for all their lives has become.
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Karl Marx had some interesting observations. This is him writing in 1858 on the UK in Ireland.
I especially like his opening sentence "A Government, representing, like the present British Ministry, a party in decay, will always better succeed in getting rid of its old principles, than of its old connections."
and his comment on the new Government of Lord Derby - The formation of the Derby Cabinet involved the consequence that all Government places should be divided among a motley crew still united by a party name which has become meaningless, and still marching under a banner torn to tatters, but in fact having nothing in common save reminiscences of the past, club intrigues, and, above all, the firm resolution to share together the loaves and fishes of office."
150 years on his remarks sound remarkably predictive!
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off topic, but please can we find out more about the whole mandy oleg dance for favours?
PS Glenrothes sock it to them!
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I suspect that a decent amount of information about an entirely different political landscape in Scotland will result from this blog.
I live in a rural area of Scotland but it shares with much of urban Scotland a fairly coherent and to a large extent not class conscious community identity.
This has meant that historically Scots Tories have been rather understated in their right wing ideology. Mrs Thatcher and the slavish adherence to her by the appointed leaders of Scotland's Tories saw an end to that and an end to Toryism as a major factor in Scottish politics.
(Over 25% of identified Scots Tory supporters would vote yes in an independence referendum)
The politics of the nations that make up the UK are now diverging and we have to hope that the divergence proceeds in peace and amity.
It is instructive how little anti-English rhetoric is to be met in the outpourings of Scottish national sentiment on most blogs and how disappointing it is to see a huge range of ill informed and nasty anti-Scottish sentiment on many other blogs.
To be generous most of this is as a result of the misinformation being pedalled in a lot of the low brow right wing English media which paints the Scots as a lazy, whinging beggar nation sucking up English tax payers money.
This concept doesn't impinge largely on Scottish politics.
Which is to say that the outcome at Glenrothes on Thursday will owe little to the factors that the English media imagine are affecting the result. The battle between Brown and Cameron is a complete irrelevance in this contest. The fact is that the unionist attempt to portray Scotland as a subsidy junkie needing English handouts is becomiong more and more generally offensive and a lot of Labour's all to obvious delight at the trouble with banking in Scotland is telling against it.
I will be in Glenrothes most of next week. By Wednesday I will know who is winning. I'll let you all know.
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355 grandantidote
You say Gordon Brown has come out of his shell. Sorry, butty, I don't like what I see!
More inclined to agree with
358. oldnat who wrote:
While I'm not a socialist myself, sneckedagain's condemnation of NuLab, as an abandonment of everything that the old Labour Party stood for, resonates strongly.
Any decent Socialist would find nothing in the Blair/Brown/Miliband/Mandelson dogma which reflected their views.
I will disregard Brown, who I know you really believe in, and I don't want to spoil your Saturday night, but come on, how can you even consider Miliband, Mandelson, Harmon, Blears, I could go on adding names, Balls, Darling. etc? If they are socialists, then I would trust a cat to babysit a pet mouse. I can just imagine A.Bevan and Bessie Bradock rolling in their graves.
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I'm going to read now, so will say goodnight to you all. Still feeling sick after writing a list that included Mandelson and Balls. What a dreadful combination, hardly socialist, or any political party. Sounds more like a down-market stand up comedy act.
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#374 fairlyopenmind
I agree that the French system is much less unfair than the current plurality system - it's pretty much the same as now used for the London mayoral election and worked OK there. Barely a third of current MPs actually have an overall majority, so it would make most seats marginal and give voters everywhere the opportunity to make a difference while still being able to express their true party loyalty in their 1st choice.
I don't particularly like the party list system as it gives the parties too much power, but would prefer multi-member STV, which also allows voters to choose between the candidates for their own favourite party. That's now in use for Scottish councils, but it'll be a long while before NuLab or the official Tories will accept it for Westmidden.
My own bet would be that the French system or something like it would be the minimum needed to persuade the LibDems into a coalition in the event of a "hung" parliament, possibly along with meaningful devolution for England.
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#378 sneckedagain
It's also interesting that Tories tend to be survivors in any situation - they will always represent the "haves" as opposed to the "have nots", and there will always be a political party that represents their interests.
You are absolutely right that Scotland has a more coherent society - not that we don't have a "class" system, but it is significantly less stratified than in England.
I suspect that it was Auntie Annabel that persuaded Cameron to state that Scotland can be economically independent - she doesn't want her party tainted with the anti-Scottish Unionism of Labour.
The shell of the Labour Party in Scotland will be killed off, and replaced by a genuine Scottish Labour Party that will represent a significant strand of Scottish opinion.
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PS to my #381
Of course, if there's a "hung" parliament, the party with most seats could actually try the SNP minority goernment approach and rule by consensus.
It has proved surprisingly popular and generally effective, but is possibly too sensible for either of the arch-unionist parties.
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browndov@372
re: media biased in favour of unionism in glenrothes?
The BBC is reporting for the whole of the UK. Gordon Brown is the prime minister of the UK and the labour party the Goverment. Therefore they get top billing as the government of the UK and of most interest to the whole country. Salmond is the first minister of Scotland so his party is mentioned second. Conservatives are hardly mentioned because they are irrelevant. How else should it be done? if Salmond is first they would be biased in favour of nationalism.
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max @ 343
Most feminists (as in 'wimmin') would not define 'feminism' as "total equality of the sexes". There is always an underlying political slant. Sad but true.
Well, true but I don't know about sad. It's just that somebody for whom equality is a core value is very likely to be politically left wing.
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power @ 348
there's loads of subdivisions of 'feminism', some of which are after equality (which is fair enough, though it's arguable that they have it already) and some of which are clearly based on centuries-old grievances real or imagined.
What sort of centuries old grievances, I wonder? - witch dunking, that sort of thing?
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ppl @ 354
Does anyone know of any famous people who have switched from right to left?
Me.
Oh and Nick Robinson, of course, according to you guys ...
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352 sicilian
Well sir it didn't take you long to get back to your spiteful ways did it?. Be curious to know to whom you were referring to though.
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max @ 365
Anyone who was not a socialist at 20, hasn't got a heart. Anyone who is still a socialist at 40, hasn't got a brain
Now that sounds a bit like Maggie's "any man still using the bus after the age of 30 is a failure" doesn't it?
Seriously though, it is the case that many people get more right wing as they grow old. The reason for that, in my opinion, is that age often brings not wisdom but rather a stubborn closing of the mind to the possibility of a better way of doing things. Quite naturally, the older person tends to be more backward looking and, with that, comes a more reactionary way of viewing the world.
Yes, I think that's true. Wish it wasn't though.
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oldnat @ 376
Karl Marx had some interesting observations
Yes and it looks like he was on the button with some of his economic stuff too, doesn't it? ...
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384. dhwilkinson
'The BBC is reporting for the whole of the UK. Gordon Brown is the prime minister of the UK and the labour party the Goverment. Therefore they get top billing as the government of the UK and of most interest to the whole country. Salmond is the first minister of Scotland so his party is mentioned second. Conservatives are hardly mentioned because they are irrelevant. How else should it be done? if Salmond is first they would be biased in favour of nationalism.'
Sorry but if that is the case the Tories should be second as they are the next dominant party.
Using your stencil since Scotland is where the by-election is being held then the dominant party in Scotland should top the billing.
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#384 dhwilkinson
You certainly have an interesting view of the impartiality rules (that the BBC currently misuses).
However, I'll settle for those at the next General Election.
In every political broadcast in the UK (until independence), the UK PM speaks first, then the Scottish FM, then the Welsh and Irish leaders.
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#386 sagamix
"witch dunking, that sort of thing?"
Wrong blog - that was Sarah Palin in Alaska.
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#384 dhwilkinson
"The BBC is reporting for the whole of the UK."
Arguably so, although the oft-used epithets EBC and UBC are not entirely unmerited.
"Gordon Brown is the prime minister of the UK and the labour party the Goverment."
If you had said UK Goverment, you'd have been correct, but so what?
Had the Supreme Leader been opening a tractor factory in Fife, it would have been reasonable or even possibly appropriate, but he wasn't. "Duff" Gordon was visiting Glenrothes as party supremo of the estimable Mr Roy, his candidate in an election.
In any party situation, public service broadcasters have a duty to be unbiased, at least between the main candidates, and I have yet to hear anyone seriously claiming that this is other than a two-horse race.
As it's supposedly the candidates we vote for to represent us in the "mother of parliaments", maybe its their names which should come first.
In any event the headline could have been much less one-sided than "Brown will 'fight for every vote'".
Perhaps something like:
"FM & PM avoid each other on the stump" or
"Brown & Salmond sparring for votes today" or
"Grant & Roy applaud leaders' visits"
Fairness isn't rocket-science.
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382 oldnat
E Roland Muirhead, a socialist and founder member of the National Party of Scotland which became the Scottish National Party when it merged with the Scottish Party (in 1934 I think) always insisted that Scotland would not gain its independence until the kilted laird ( the archetypal Tory Scot) turned.
We're getting there on that one.
As you say a "Tory " party always survives. Tories don't have principles - rather they take pragmatic decisions on how best to hold on to their advantage. When Independence becomes an obvious inevitability the SNP won't be able to keep them off the bandwagon. On other forecasts Jim Sillars said Scotland would not be free until Scotland was badly disappointed by a Labour Government. We're getting there on that one also.
What is odd is that the history of independence movements is usually also the history of a nation's socialist voice. Another indicator I'm afraid of the sorry condition of Scottish Labour.
As a matter of interest at the end of the Second World War there were 45 nations represented at the UN. There are now 195.
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#392 oldnat
What a good idea.
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#396 Brownedov
Yes, but the English get shafted again - still if that's what they want!
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brown @ 351
What it means is that some of the views of the quarter of the electorate who supported NuLab prevail over the three quarters of the rest rest of us. That is not democracy in my book and nor in every other member state of the EU.
That's a fair point about our electoral system - although it's not so easy to come up with a better one. Still, I do think there was a real mandate for increased public spending after such a long period of neglect by the BTP.
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Lest we forget the words of Krugman. Independent, no political agenda in the UK, Nobel prize for economics.
Read it and wee Tory boys.
"But the Brown government has shown itself willing to think clearly about the financial crisis, and act quickly on its conclusions. And this combination of clarity and decisiveness hasn’t been matched by any other Western government, least of all our own. "
"Meanwhile, the British government went straight to the heart of the problem — and moved to address it with stunning speed. "
"Luckily for the world economy, however, Gordon Brown and his officials are making sense. And they may have shown us the way through this crisis."
Now call me old fashioned, but the words of the Nobel prize winner for economics carry slightky more gravitas than;
Power ttp
Grawth
Jcook
robinjd
flamepat (aka Hyacinth Bucket)
THE REAL TRUTH
et al
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379 mindphoenixrisn
There you go then back to the trenches
You say Gordon Brown has come out of his shell. Sorry, butty, I don't like what I see!
Well phoenix I wouldn't have expected any different from you, it would have been silly of me to expect any different wouldn't it
More inclined to agree with
358. oldnat who wrote:since oldnat you and snekedagain are not socialist its like me telling you three that your respective preferences are not what they were, and my answer to that is thank the lord for that things have moved on its 2008
not 1980
Any decent Socialist would find nothing in the Blair/Brown/Miliband/Mandelson dogma which reflected their views.
So what your saying is that I'm not a decent
Socialist because these are the people I support, in your book you probable consider that Lansley, Spellman May, Letwin. Grieve Willets,Osbourne Hague .Maud .Yeo and dear old Dave are the people who are the fine upstanding pillars of our community and could be trusted to run our country, with all the experience they have at their fingertips.
Blair was a better PM than ever Dave will make lets see if Dave will be there if he ever gets there, in ten years, Brown best chancellor the country has ever had dont even compare him with Osbourne, Milliband a fine young up and coming future leader of the labour party and lord Mandleson lets compare him with Lord Ascroft deputy chairman of the conservative party, he tricked Hague into getting him a peerage by saying he'll become a British citizen, he never has and he is still pumping millions into the Tory party and Cameron still pretends that he doesn't know whether he holds a british passport, your all three so concerned in trying to knock the Labour party that you cant see whats going on under your nose's
"I can just imagine A.Bevan and Bessie Bradock rolling in their graves."
And I can just imagine Winstone Churchill and Harold Mcmillan spinning in theirs at the weakness and policy bereft shadow front bench of Dave Camerons team.
I wont say that your not a decent Tory because you have told me your not a Tory but then you haven't told me of what political persuasion you are.
Tell the snipers to keep their heads low I'll be less tired tomorrow.
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399 eaton rifle
At this late hour you have just delivered the killer blow. I fear it will be wasted as they cant accept anything other than their Tory dogma.
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#398 sagamix
"That's a fair point about our electoral system - although it's not so easy to come up with a better one."
On the contrary. It would be hard to come up with a worse one, and nobody else in the EU would be allowed to regress to it if they wished to remain members.
NuLab promised electoral reform in '97 until they felt they didn't need it. Both flavours of Tory - NuLab and the officals seemingly much prefer the idea of Buggins' turn at 18 years in the wilderness.
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#399 Eatonrifle
Yes, but he said it on his NY Times blog a week after that august journal had reported Sarko suggesting much the same thing on a pan-European basis.
To praise a French president in polite US society (if that's not an oxymoron) is about one step up from lauding Al Qeda, so he picked an anglophone instead.
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399:
There's a very thin line between genius and madness. I feel this may be a case in point.
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#399 Eaton,
But RobinJD apparently has an economic degree. And the power to call elections.
PTTP is obviously creative - he writes some delightful poetry. And his arguments have impeccable logic - his comments on the evils of the ZaNuLabore party are very perceptive, and he did discover that Gordon Brown is just a jowly alien from Uranus - and that everyone who works for the BBC is a disabled black lesbian. You must credit him for that.
And you also forget warning123 - he is so tenacious and thorough in his arguments.
Sicilian29 is a great tactician.
And Maxsceptic is superior to all us left of centre folk - we are just a regressed version of him remember.
I think I trust the word of the formidable team above rather than a mere Nobel prize winning economist.
Nobel-schnobel!
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#400 grandantidote
I said "Any decent Socialist would find nothing in the Blair/Brown/Miliband/Mandelson dogma which reflected their views."
You said "So what your saying is that I'm not a decent Socialist because these are the people I support"
Afraid so. Your party was effectively hijacked by the Tories, and you don't seem to have noticed.
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Nobody is saying that Gordon Brown didn't perform as he should have when the sh*t hit the fan.
What most people are remembering as things quieten down however is that he was responsible for the sh*t in the first place.
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399. Eatonrifle wrote:
Krugman. Independent, no political agenda in the UK, Nobel prize for economics.
Read it and wee Tory boys.
"But the Brown government has shown itself willing to think clearly about the financial crisis, and act quickly on its conclusions. And this combination of clarity and decisiveness hasn?t been matched by any other Western government, least of all our own. "
Your right! Just for absolute clarity let's take a look at a breakdown of the agendas of all concerened:
http://economicapocalypse.blogspot.com/2008/10/down-rabbit-hole-towards-new-economic.html
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My diagnosis has always been that the powers that be realised that the Tories were inelectable so they settled for the next best thing - a Tory to lead the Labour Party in government. So we got Tony Blair and Tony got huge support from the normally right wing tabloid press. In fact more Tony and Gordon abandoned socialist principles the better press they got.
However when Tony became inelectable (mostly the Iraq war) it was time to put the Tories - now sanitised - back in again. Sorry, Gordon.
So DC gets a good press and Gordon Brown gets excoriated in the media. But they overdo it and it looksa like an internal revolt will bring Brown down. This won't do.The plan is for the Tories to face a lame duck premier so GB must stay in place. So he gets a great press during the financial crisis and the Labour revolt dies. But he mustn't lose at Glenrothes so the whole media is giving him support to keep him in place and give him a Glenrothes Labour victory.
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#399 Eatonrifle wrote:
Lest we forget the words of Krugman. Independent, no political agenda in the UK, Nobel prize for economics.
Read it and wee Tory boys.
"But the Brown government has shown itself willing to think clearly about the financial crisis, and act quickly on its conclusions. And this combination of clarity and decisiveness hasn?t been matched by any other Western government, least of all our own. "
"Meanwhile, the British government went straight to the heart of the problem ? and moved to address it with stunning speed. "
"Luckily for the world economy, however, Gordon Brown and his officials are making sense. And they may have shown us the way through this crisis."
Sad fact that most people don't give a flying fig for the views of theoretical economists.
Since the financial crisis has been going on for a year, it doesn't seem like a really speedy response by Brown & Darling.
And it looks like a fairly poor approach if you can only "rescue" HBoS by lumbering a solid (rather stolid) bank like Lloyds TSB with a whole raft of debt.
If economists are any good, why didn't they predict the sharp rise in oil prices?
And the decimation of stock markets?
Fact is, they can't. A bit like environmental scientists, they can gather historical information and hypothosise, but predicted outcomes are a bit hit and miss.
You didn't even need a GCSE in economics to be able to say that creating credit-based growth was going to end in tears. Good economists would have said when it was going to happen.
They obviously weren't employed in the Treasury... Or maybe they were too afraid to be honest as it wouldn't chime with "The Project".
(And, goodness knows, an awful lot of GCSEs allow multiple choice answers, as a method of testing whether pupils have learnt and really understand anything.)
I bet you hope that the surgeon who has to save your life isn't making a diagnosis based on a similar "reliablity factor" as most economists... They obviously can't use a "multiple choice", since we don't come with options tatooed on the torso.
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Hmmmm All of a suddon New Labour Supporters are taken Nobel Winners words as gospel.
What a shame they didn't listen to one in 2003.
Uncomfortable Truth.
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400 grandantidote
So what your saying is that I'm not a decent
Socialist because these are the people I support, in your book you probable consider that Lansley, Spellman May, Letwin. Grieve Willets,Osbourne Hague .Maud .Yeo and dear old Dave are the people who are the fine upstanding pillars of our community and could be trusted to run our country, with all the experience they have at their fingertips.
I feel sick, thanks to you! Grandantidote, I've just got up, put on the computer and read that rubbish, yes rubbish you just wrote. Enough to make me vomit just the names!
And I can just imagine Winstone Churchill and Harold Mcmillan spinning in theirs at the weakness and policy bereft shadow front bench of Dave Camerons team.
Only this sentence is correct, as far as I'm concerned. NOT Macmillan. but Churchill.
I no longer vote for any party. Churchill, like Bevan was above party politics. Both men thought they were true to their parties, but they were not. Bevan was a true man of the people and an idealist. No party could live up to him. Churchill, was an individualist, who made mistakes in his earlier days, but grew in stature and lead the nation to victory. He was a man of his times. Sometimes G-d or fate throw up a leader like a lifeline.
After you raging about those unpleasant tories, I need a cup of strong hot tea. Some butty you'ev turned out to be. As far as I'm concerned, I'm out of the trenches waving my rifle above my head!
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Eatonrifle @399
If Krugman, winner of the recent Nobel prize for economics, was so smart and prescient, then how come he kept quiet and didn't raise his concerns about the world economy before this credit crunch induced crises started?
Did any one of our world-famous economists stand up and warn us that the world's financial system was on the brink of disaster? (The only warning I recall was Alan Greenspan's 'irrational exuberance' and that was years ago - and even he didn't heed his own warning).
As ever, 'experts' have wonderful 20:20 hindsight.
As for the Nobel prize: for years, many of the decisions of the Nobel Prize Committee have been made on political grounds - as well as dubious merit. For example, Harold Pinter won recently. Does anyone who's not a signed-up 'leftie-intellectual' actually rate his stuff? I don't believe his rubbish will stand the test of time and in a hundred years time people will be amazed that the writer of the following 'poem'
There's no escape.
The big p[censored]s are out.
They'll [censored] everything in sight.
Watch your back.
Was given a Nobel Prize.
But - hey ho - he hates the US and Bush, so he must be right-on and talented.
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balhamu @405 wrote:
"And Maxsceptic is superior to all us left of centre folk - we are just a regressed version of him remember."
No. You got it wrong: if you had read my my comment with due care you'd have noticed that I mentioned that I was 'always heartless', i.e. have never been a socialist.
Do pay attention.
(Was that superior enough? ;-)
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407:
Exactly. I've been trying to say this very thing for what seems an eternity. Closed minds though!
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413 MaxSceptic
There's no escape.
The big p[censored]s are out.
They'll [censored] everything in sight.
Watch your back.
Was given a Nobel Prize.
Above is by Pinter.
I nominate our old friend power_to_the_people for a Nobel Prize, for daily verses that lighten our days.
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On the Paul Krugman thing. This story is a few weeks old now. Dragging it up again in a thread devoted to a certain crucial duel smacks a bit of desperation. For grandy to then say a few threads ago that it trumps the stance of some if not all the individuals who disagree with Gordon Brown on here is rather silly in my opinion. If you read the history of the man you will find that he has plenty of renowned detractors who vehemently disagree with his views particularly in The US.
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The Scottish banks went bust due to the arrogance and poor judgement of their leadership. Who else could be described in these terms? Salmond and Brown?
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Morning Tory Boys.
Sory to reu all of the views of an endepenent Nobel Prize winning economist. I can see it touched a raw nerve. Clearly, it upsets when someone chaenges the right wing bloggers consensus.
Much preferred on here when Max agrees with Robin, Robin agrees with J cook who agees with PTTP, who agrees with The Real Truth and together you all agree with George Osbourne.
Hey, I have an idea for you. If you can scrape together £25k you could join Georges "Shadow Chancellors Club" to discuss "policy" together.
Oh hang on sorry, George has had to disband the Shadow Chancellors Club after finally realising that begging for donations from complete strangers is not a good idea in his position. Ah Well.
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405 Balhamu
Yes I cant recall all of the "thoughts" of Power to the People but I'd have to say they (and not saying this to provke) increasingly remind me of 1930's propoganda such as "the eternal Jew".
Comparing people who happen to hold a contrary political view to your own to vermin has been used by other right wing extremists.
Quote
"We'll pour salt on the Nu-Labour slugs!"
Possibly his finest work. He must be proud.
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@ 413
he hates the US and Bush, so he must be right-on and talented.
Half right ... that's necessary but not sufficient.
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#419 Eatonrifle
Like perhaps 90% of the comments on this thread, you're way off-topic.
The Tories are fighting with the LibDems over who will come 3rd and the evidence you quote from the Ney York Times' blogger who happens to be an economist was discussed extensively on the Brian Taylor threads some time ago.
Do you really think that the electorate of Glenrothes will be more concerned about his puff for Brown or, as Wee Eck suggests, the thudding of energy bills through their letter boxes?
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I don't think anyone has totally agreed with the actions of George Osborn (without the 'u' please) as you suggest. The concensus is that he has been a very silly boy and shifted the emphasis at a time when The Government should have been seriously challenged on their record. My own view is that he is a liability and should be replaced with a man of greater experience such as Kenneth Clarke. Better still Vince Cable. Would that he weren't a Lib Dem. Like Lewis Hamilton I'm hoping The Conservatives don't shoot themselves in the foot by panicking needlesly.
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Nick--don't you think that if Labour scrape home in this by-election, the PM might just start thinking that an election early next summer, on the same day as the Euro vote is a risk worth taking?....if you remember it would be rather like the gamble that Harold Wilson took after the Hull by election in 1966 which made him put money on a march 1966 general election which resulted in a Labour landslide ?
Or is this too much of a gamble? for example in 1970, after months of appalling polls for Labour, the electorate returned some moderately successful local election results, which made Harold Wilson gamble on the june election which he then lost-big time!.
If on the other hand as predicted a month or so ago Labour loose the Glenrothe by election---then it surely goes without saying that the main bulk of the electorate are still thinking " let's have a change ?" Thus general election postponed till 2010?
What do you think, what does anybody else think?
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Why didn't they warn us? questions. If he did warn us it would create a panic and therefore create or accelerate the crisis. The collapse