Back to the future
It's back to the future with David Cameron. Today he evoked the memory, the values and the policies of Margaret Thatcher. If the country had listened to the argument about needing an experienced leader, Britain would never have had Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. He echoed her promise to deliver sound money, low taxes and a responsible society.
He even attempted to turn her infamous phrase that "there's no such thing as society" against the Labour party, arguing that they behave as if only the government mattered.
It was all very different from the Cameron of the past who appeared to delight in taking on his party and its past.
It was his answer to those critics who claim he's the new Tony Blair - all style and no substance.
Suddenly - thanks to the economic crisis - the battle between Conservatives and Labour feels all too familiar to those who remember politics before the Blair years.
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"*With* a plan" Nick, for goodness sake!
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IT WAS AN EXCELLENT SPEECH.Powerful and statesmanlike.I am in no doubt that thi sman will be Prime Minister in 18 months time.What leadership compared to Browns spin and dithering.Well done Mr Cameron
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That was a very good speech. About 20 minutes too long but, still, very impressive. Cameron beats Brown hands down as a communicator.
Now, if the BTP would only change all their policies, I might consider voting for them.
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I heard "man with a plan, not a miracle cure", not "man without a plan..."
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Yes, Nick,
Its right back to 1979
The light brigade......on another fateful charge.....
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This speech was nothing as simplistic as this 'analysis' would make it appear.
It was thoughtful - and moving. The section about the NHS brought me to tears (for very personal reasons).
It is about setting a tone and indicating very clearly an ability to lead us.
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That was an excellent speech. He nailed the "novice" line from Gordon Brown.
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Brilliant speech.
Anyone that properly listened to that speech has a very realistic analysis of what the countries problems are.
This was not a Labour Party style give away of laptops and nursery places to make the party faithful sea lions clap.
Cameron clearly has deep seated convictions and a true strategy.
I hope that the public open up their minds and truly listen and take on board what he has said.
It is possible to change life long voting patterns for the right choice for Britain.
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Great statesman like speech. Difficult in today's financial crisis to know how to play it but he came through with flying colours saying all the right things and punctuating it with a little humour - something Crash Gordon just doesn't have.
David has the intellect, strength, stamina, and CHARACTER. This country needs him!
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"man without a plan" - see NR's exact text - must be some kind of Freudian slip, no?
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The back to the future comment is so relevent to today's financial crisis. The sins of the past are being revisited all around us and especially in financial markets. I've seen it before and expect I will see it again. Not exactly as it happened but with the same symptoms and similar results.
Many said the current financia crisis could never have been foreseen?
As the former Global Head of HSBC Securities Services, I am now a published author of "One Step To Danger" (Troubador Publishing). This financial thriller was initially rejected by several publishers and agents as "too far fetched" despite my quite prescient claim that the story line could one day become a reality.
The main character's description of the slump in share prices, after market manipulation by money managers and especially himself, echoes eerily this week's events:
"It was then sheer and unadulterated panic. And that panic fed panic in Wall Street. The market opened. The market slumped. It was a blood bath. There were rumours of major broker defaults. One bank had called to see the Federal Reserve. There were rumours that it was in trouble.......I looked at the news and saw the President was holding a press conference....."
That was what the book said when I drafted it in 2002 and finalised it last year. Now it is the real world and not a figment of my imagination. My imagination did not run riot; the financial world has now caught up with me!!
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If he really said that he's a man 'without a plan not a miracle cure' I shall vote for him. It would be the first time, ever, that I've heard the leader of a political party come anywhere close to the truth!
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So much more refreshing to listen to someone who can actually speak the English language and is proud of it. Who can spell correctly and is proud of it. Who doesn't use his speech to give throw away bribes to the electorate. Who tells the workshy they'll have to get off their backsides and get back to work.
In short someone who could represent us as a country and not be a laughing stock. Who does not represent the excess of the Blair years. Who did not ramp up government debt to the highest level in Europe.
Whose name is Cameron not Brown
Call an election.
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Good speech. He made some good points, didn't make any vague promises of tax cuts to try and gain cheap votes, and struck a sombre mood. All in all very well done in these bad financial times. I wonder how many people will start posting here claiming to be long term tory supporters who want more substance?
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I was only saying the other day how Zen masters acted without plans. Now, Cameron leaps on the Zen bandwagon. What can I say? Welcome to the party, pal!
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Was he (cameron) serious about the Osborne speech
being the best ever shadow chancellors speech ever made??
Laugh......laugh.....laugh
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Have to say as a Labourite i was massively impressed by David Cameron... He certainly has the pulse of the country and i think i've just changed my voting intentions at the next election...
I'm afraid I just can't see myself voting Labour after this speech.....
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Dammit Nick! I thought I was onto something then and it was just you adding 'out' to the end of 'with'! So 'Dave' is the 'man with a plan'. I'm reminded of Wile E. Coyote: He always had a plan!
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A bit too woolly and liberal for my liking, but the promise to hold a referendum on the EU treaty and the promise to go to war with educators that dumb-down and sack the kinds of people who give extra-credits for children who swear in their examination papers is very welcome.
I like the way that he wants to punish the bankers for their mistakes, instead of the way Brown is always bending over backwards to give them anything they want from the taxpayer. Cameron appears to realise that tax revenues are NOT his personal money. It is ours and we expect value for money. Value for money being something that Labour has NEVER understood.
Roll on the next election.
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Nick
Nothing to say about his analysis of the failures of brown and labour?
Scared of biting the hand that feeds you?
I am sure labour will follow your line (or are you following theirs) about waving 'thatcher' around as a bogeyman.
Surely you can't really expect to get away with a contentless posting when there was so much to work with?
Yes, I guess you can - and will contine to do so...
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Great speech by Cameron.
The fatally-wounded Brown bear no doubt grumbled and growled in his cave as his battle scars were agitated by prods and pokes from Captain Cameron's sharp stick.
But the real frustration for the bear no doubt was the rich harvest of honey-sweet policies which were so well trailed and which the bear knew could never be his.
The Brown bear stays wounded and not yet dead; time will take care of that.
Meanwhile Cameron prepares for office.
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I thought it was an excellent speech which clearly set out the direction he would like to take the Country and what that would mean, in broad terms, for different sectors of society. Whether you agree with the content or not, at least there was content, which is more than can be said for Brown's offering last week.
I particularly liked the comment that the UK is a Country and not a TV channel (when referring to Blair's fascination with news management and the short termism that results). I do hope that was code for his intention to reduce both the head count and perverse activity of Westminster spin doctors. I want our politicians to focus upon resolving the issues rather than invest precious time managing news feeds designed to kid us that they are resolving the issues (when they patently are not).
I did disagree, at least in part, with Nick's summing up on the TV.
I don't subscribe to Nick being partial to one party or another, but I do take issue with his summing up. It seems to be predicated on a good soundbite for his news feed rather than what I personally distilled from a 65 minute speech.
Maybe being a journalist is what Nick should be accused of.
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Three of the first 10 comments are from accounts that have never posted before!
They haven't been modded yet, so I'll have to guess whehter they will be pro or anti wont I...
What do you think?
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I thought he did very well with his speech, and clearly spelt out a way forward.
He has identified many of the everyday problems which are the bane of everyones lives these days, which is more than Gordon Browns "we get it" government seem to have done.
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Is it just me or did Nick resubmit a different topic to what was there before? Anyway, I just read the news item on Cameron's speech and I see no sign of plans for business and society that will help turn the country around. It just looks like more of the same old bogeymen. This is not a forward looking consensus for the long-term. It's just about creating enemies and scaring people. Yup, same old Thatcherism.
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But "sound money" is at the foundation of genuine prosperity. We have had Irresponsible Brown spending beyond our means and now the Government is broke. Government borrowing is simply deferred taxation - either Brown should have taxed even more to satisfy his profligate spending, or he should have spent less and more wisely - it is as simple as that. It will take a Cameron led Conservative Government to put Government finances back onto a stable footing.
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So he wants to be the PM of the UK not just England... Then he talked about Thatcher ..
Red rag to bull stuff as far as most Scots are concerned.
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When your on the wrong road, Dave, your lost.
The man with no plan lost in another dimension.
It might make the headlines, for all the nonsense of its content.
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Nick refers to Margaret Thatcher's infamous phrase (as he puts it) that "there's no such thing as society".
That quote is often trotted out to bash the Tories - and let's be honest, it wasn't a helpful comment given that it is open to misinterpretation.
What Margaret Thatcher was actually saying was that too many people were blaming 'society' instead of taking personal responsibility for things that go wrong. Society is made up of individual people.
I didn't hear David Cameron mentioned this "infamous" quote. More mischief making from the BBC?
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Good speech.
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It's easy to promise the earth in times of trouble. I don't trust this man at all, and neither should you.
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99 @ 17
It was a good speech, no question. Brown is such a clunky communicator by comparison, isn't he?
Don't forget to check those BTP policies though, before changing your vote to them ... I think you'll find that you disagree with every last one of them.
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Cameron makes a fool of himself by promising to change things at the sharp end, he thinks he can change the whole country in a day. Just who does he think he is? And furthermore, why would anyone want to be reminded of Margaret Thatcher? Good grief.
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Just when I thought I couldn't despise this rosy cheeked plastic pillock anymore he goes and brings up Thatcher. A malodorous reminder of why the party of greed, exploitation and privilege shouldn't ever be let anywhere near government again. Brown may be hopeless but almost everything that is wrong with the world today can be traced back to the original Thatcher / Reagan axis of evil.
BTW, did anyone else get their hopes up when they read the phrase 'evoked the memory' applied to the old boot?
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Number 13 says - "Call an election"
Who?
The BBC? Cameron? Tory Bloggers United?
They can't.
Get your head around our political system please.
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Probably good enough for the Labour-lites to move over to Conservative-lite.
Nothing more though.
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Fantastic speech, Brown will know now his days are numbered.
Brown will have been watching it in his bunker, keeping his head down until Thursday, waiting for the bailout plan to be approved so he can take credit for it.
It's been Cameron leading the way for the past week, he seems genuine leader (PM) material. Labour have no idea what to do next.
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Feels familiar? You make it sounds as if Cameron has moved the Tories to the right, and Brown has moved Labour to the left.
I don't believe either of those things has happened.
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What a speech!
Even Roy Hattersley had to clutch at straws to find anything to fault He was looking a bit fed up today. No wonder.
Cameron answered all his critics and gave us a way forward. Something everyone must be crying out for at the moment.
I wonder how many 20 plus people would like to be called novices let alone a 41 year old professional like Cameron.
Gordon Brown has well and truly shot himself in the foot.
The Tories are showing themselves as fully committed and ready to take on this shameless labour lot.
Now it just can't come soon enough.
I'd rather have pain that will get better under the Tories than never ending pain under Labour.
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Same old, same old. Anyone who bases their vote entirely on a leader's speech in a comfy party get together should have their vote taken away.
The man's an empty vessel. If the electorate votes in a Blair Mark 2 then the country's going to be in an ever deeper mess - the only way is down...
Brown's been disappointing over the past twelve months but he's still a more sound leadership option than Little Boy Blue, regardless of what the Tory groupies on this blog and Nick Robinson might think, once they've finished their much-needed cold showers.
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Personable bloke, decent speech, reasonable message. But it's a sheep in wolf's clothing. Elect the tories with a big majority and we'll see a lurch to the right.
Notice not much talk about europe? He's all over the centre ground until you get EU policy and suddenly he shows himself to be the reactionary he is deep down.
In an age where power and money is shifting east the idea we can continue punching above our weight internationally without being a central part of the EU is a joke.
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"That was what the book said when I drafted it in 2002 and finalised it last year. Now it is the real world and not a figment of my imagination. My imagination did not run riot; the financial world has now caught up with me!!"
Well John, it was not very difficult to predict was it? When the entire economic model can be boiled down to the Federal reserve only exists to lend money (created from nothing out of thin air) into circulation at interest, without ever creating the interest, except by more credit, then that is an inflationary bubble waiting to burst. It is, by design, a system that is unsustainable and bound to collapse.
In simple terms, a society has 10 people. each one borrows 10 units of currency and goes away for a year. At the end of that year they each have to repay 11 units, (10 plus the interest on the loan). The extra unit(s) were never lent into circulation. So several members of that society are forced to borrow more in order to survive, or be foreclosed.
It is a fatally flawed system and MUST crash. It should be destroyed and replaced with a system that works for everyone, instead of JUST for the tiny elite of the elite of the global banking families.
As for Cameron's speech, it was very good indeed.
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How depressing. I just saw a speech full of cynicism and spin and with American levels of nausiatingly fake sincerity that *almost* makes me wish for Tony Blair back.
I didn't see a single thing that wasn't pitched around a calculated sound byte. I suppose at least he's good at sound bytes while the current incumbents aren't good at anything but still.
I guess this means 5 years of Tory snouts back at their rightful troughs.
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Well, its sounds like he recognises the overall finances are a mess and he's prepared to resolve the situation - makes a nice change to hear a politician who says I can't fix this by spending my way out of this with your money ..
In contrast to Brown I could at least imagine voting for Cameron - and you cannot imagine how tough a decision that is having lived in a Yorkshire mining village during the last Miners strike ..
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This was a very thin comment from Nick Peston and not worthy of his normal standard.
It was a masterful speech which caught the public mood precisely. It was eloquent and full of insight. It also drew up important policy principles.
Without a doubt it shows he has the stature and depth to be the next Prime Minister.
He will get my vote and probably that of my namesake too!
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Correction to my previous comment #29
I've looked at the transcript of David Cameron's speech just published, and I see he did indeed mention the phrase "no such thing as society".
So Nick was right - my mistake!
Cameron said: "No-one but the Minister, nowhere but Whitehall, no such thing as society - just them, and their laws, and their rules, and their arrogance. You cannot run our country like this"
Sorry Nick, for my mistake.
However, I do feel my point about Thatcher's "infamous" phrase often being taken out of context is still valid.
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After this speech there can only be one reason to vote for the present government led by Gordon Brown:
"You got us into this mess you get us out".
The problem is that with my knowlege and experience of him over the last 10 years I wouldn't trust him and his "Government of Irresponsibility".
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For me I really liked David Cameron's bit regarding the response to a letter, forwarded by him on behalf of a patient, to Alan Johnson about a complaint about the NHS - that's exactly the kind of faceless nasty uncaring bureaucracy most of us have to live with every day
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Cameron is still a Blair
But he is more dangerous.
He does not lead a party that is about freedom, he leads a party that wants to preach to us about how we live (and who we live it with)
The Tories fired the starting gun of our economic woes in the early eighties
I see nothing that is really about stopping it - just patching up the problems with noble but useless words.
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RobinJD
Forget an election LETS HAVE A COUP
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Terrific that he's so in favour of responsibility. So, elsewhere in his speech, then, we see an acceptance of his party's, and in particular Thatcher's, responsibility for creating a financial climate in which greed was good; a trading climate in which ever more fictitious forms of commodities - futures, options - were traded ever more extensively; a regulatory climate which left money-makers (not wealth, just money) to make their money without keeping an eye on them; an industrial climate which deliberately and systematically downgraded actual production of material goods; a social climate which, because it was all about the money, eroded values such as respect, community, knowledge and, yes, experience. We see all that also in this speech about responsibility... uh, don't we?
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For once in a very, very long time, a politician stopped spinning facts and just spoke his mind. It was a engaging monologue from someone who 'gets' it, that instinctively knows this country's problems.
The sense of injustice in what Labour have got wrong clearly came through and in a very measured tone.
We all know they've screwed up and despite their 'experience' they don't have the competence; it's time to change.
It was an excellent speech and a very good insight into a real political visionary. With the talent in the Shadow Cabinet, maybe the future might not be so bad.
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Cameron has put the last nail in Prudence Dithering- Brown's political coffin.
To be asccused of being a novice by a man of experience who has overseen the largest govermnment debt this country has ever experienced with no way of getting it down; and that is before we load in all Private Finance Initiative costs is a joke worthy of court action!.
Oh if it was only numbers but this is serious that could be lost under the lies of statisticts dear boy!.
Prudence Dithering-Brown has overseen in partnership with Reverend Blair, a lamentable decline in this country's well being and we will be saddled with the debt hangover and payments thereof for years to come with little sign of it shifing for generations.
If that is what constitutes experience then we should all claim we can now walk on water!!
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Nick, please put the Thatcher quote in context. It was a giveaway to the left and she should have known better but the point she was making was that society is made up of individuals and we all need to take responsibility. Not much wrong with that. By peddling the "infamous quote" line you put your reputation for impartiality at risk, which is a pity.
I don't hold a brief for Margaret, in fact I was a Conservative until meeting her and I immediately went and joined the Labour party. That was a long time ago.
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I haven't decided which way I am voting yet. However, this speech has given me food for thought.
It was really sad listening to the letter being read out about the person who had a terrible experience in the NHS.
But in reality, I thought it was quite sick of Cameron to use it in this way.
He talks about Thatcher in virtually every speech. Sorry, but we've been there, seen the corpses piled up in the hospital corridors and got the scars to prove the previous breakdown of the NHS under the Tories. I wonder how many hours we would need to spare to read out letters from patients during the Thatcher years.
If you all liked Thatcher so much, why did you stab her in the back and get rid of her???
I have a lot to be grateful to Thatcher, including a personally written letter, but that doesn't mean she had not made mistakes.
But, please spare us your cheap shots and salivating sycophantic clap trap.
Cameron is still the cheap opportunist, (Why didn't he stand up for the Gurkhas before?) without any substance. He is not Thatcher nor even a Blair even though he seems to try so hard.
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A warm, genuine and commanding speech, just what the country ordered!
I have say I can see straight through Nick's own bias in his analysis; I recall watching him taunt Lady Thatcher, with a cheap and nasty jibe a while back after she stepped out of No 10, a frail and elderley stateswoman, having been invited back by Gordon Brown. Just like Labour, all mouth and no manners.
So I ask you to listen to the this speech on its own merits and do not rely upon this wayward analysis. The speech was remarkable in its directness and made a laughing stock of the controlling Labour nanny state they we have been forced into serving.
This man is the next PM, and not a moment too soon.
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Excellent speech, I won't dwell too much on why, other people here have articulated their opinions extremely well for me.
What I would say is compared to Gordon Brown's effort last week, today David Cameron's easy and effortless delivery made Gordon Brown seem clumsy, ill at ease and contrived.
I see many Labour apologists here, already on the back foot. are hurling the cheap Thatcher ammunition. Shameful!
How long will it be, if they haven't started already, before Labour denigrate the speech with spurious allegations and cheap shots.
At long last, the country has a politician we can have faith in to remedy the shambolic mess caused by Gordon Brown lurching in a headless fashion from one crisis to the next, kidding himself and us, only he can repair the damage.
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@ 40 "Brown's been disappointing over the past twelve months but he's still a more sound leadership option than Little Boy Blue"
OK I have been watching politics very closely over the last 12 months, watching a lot of political television news, from here and abroad, reading newspapers and websites from across the political spectrum and the alternative media too, yet somehow, I managed to miss any evidence of "leadership" from Brown.
Please alert me to what I missed. When has he shown any leadership, and not bottled or flip-flopped???
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It was an excellent speech and deserves to be reported as such. The tide of the country has changed Nick and I really do think you have missed it. Sorry.
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# 49 Gurubear
You say: "Cameron is still a Blair".
Would this be the same Blair who: threatened to take us into the Euro?
promised a referendum on the constitutional treaty and then changed his mind?
wants to introduce ID cards?
introduced HIPs?
effectively broke up the United Kingdom?
I don't think so!
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I'm surprised us Brits can sit back and mock the pointlessness of the US elections whilst admitting to allow their vote to swing to the guy who gives the best speech.
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The speech was technically excellent in the way in which it was delivered. However the substance was still lacking.
Moreover all that was revealed through his vague hints at policy was a deep love for Margaret Thatcher.
This isn't surprising given his experience at the Treasury in the 80's when all the reforms freeing up the Banking sector first went through.
He was right in stating that the speech would be about values; he seems to have finally nailed his colours to the mast as a true blue Thatcherite (Though I have no doubt he will alter this message when not speaking to the faithful).
However, these revelations make all his superfluous talk of 'change' and 'new politics at Westminster' somewhat hollow.
The ethereal nature of his policies is also more made more prescient through a determined drive toward market reforms and deregulation in public services, whilst simultaneously holding deregulation in the banking industry responsible for current economic problems.
The fact that he didn't address this conflict within the speech shows that although it was very well delivered, its message was a patchwork attempt at statesmanship.
The only underlying theme was that he wants to use the politics of the 80s to tackle our current situation.
Despite all his claims about Brown, it looks like Cameron is still fighting the last war.
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"He does not lead a party that is about freedom, he leads a party that wants to preach to us about how we live (and who we live it with)"
No that is the labour party you are describing there. Only the labour party actually outlawed freedom of speech. Only the labour party supports detention without trail, only the labour party proposed indefinate and permanent detention without charge or trial (until the Lords over-ruled them). Only the labour party wants to build up databases stuffed full on information (that they can later sell or lose) about every single infantesimal piece of information about all of our actions in our lives, from our DNA, medical records, ID, children, to our web-surfing habits and who we e-mail, to all our travels and what we buy. They want to have everyone utterly and totally dependent on the Government. That is why they introduced tax-credits and expanded 'state' benefits in one form or another to a almost a half of the entire population.
they want us to be dependent on them completely.
Only the labour party wants to have complete and total control of everyone.
Labour philosophy is the opposite of freedom.
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Interesting speech;
heavy on themes, rather than detail and a substantial critique on Labour which the pundits pre-speech suggested may be a strategic error. So a gamble and I think one that probably paid off.
However, the theme of cutting back the State in response to hard economic times is as John Prescott would say "tradional ideas in a modern setting"; but hardly ones that grasp the nettle.
It is easy to talk about cuts but much more difficult for the Tories to talk about strategic Government spending and tough regulation of the banking sector since both upset a substantial portion neo-liberal conservatives.
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The ancient Greeks used to think that anyone under the age of 40 didn't have anything worth saying, and that "a fool at 40 is a fool indeed". Osborne talks rubbish, and if Cameron hasn't changed his spots by now it's unlikely he ever will. If Brown and Darling are Plato and Diogenes, does that make Osborne and Cameron Dumb and dumberer? I dunno, but the Matrix style slow motion roadcrash of the Tories is looking more bizarre by the moment.
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@ 51, "creating a financial climate in which greed was good; a trading climate in which ever more fictitious forms of commodities - futures, options - were traded ever more extensively; a regulatory climate which left money-makers (not wealth, just money) to make their money without keeping an eye on them; an industrial climate which deliberately and systematically downgraded actual production of material goods; a social climate which, because it was all about the money, eroded values such as respect, community, knowledge and, yes, experience."
That is a good description of what labour have been doing the last 11 years Roy.
Vote Conservative then The Tories repaired the economy in the mid 1990's and much of that was through increases in productivity in manufacturing and exports. That is something that Labour has reversed.
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Did the novice man without a plan
raise his game?
No! the infant thatcherite blew alot of bubbles.
No one will remember this speech in a few hours.
Cameron and co have gone with the wind,
flatulence that will not linger long!
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What a facile piece of analysis on a major policy speech. Shame on you.
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DC may be a 'man with a plan' it was just a bit dissapointing that he didn't feel like sharing it with the rest of us.
Lots of typical PR spin - picking emotional images and taking them out of context - the NHS story being the most cynical one in my view. The man had a justifiable complaint, how to get it dealt with is a reasonable response. The example and the allusion he was making just didn't hold together.
His only solid commitments were pointless - a referendum on a treaty already ratified - so what would the vote be about?
Profoundly dissapointing - I was starting to thing just maybe the Tories had changed and might be worth a punt next election. However harking back to Maggie - sorry may work with the faithful Tory but no thanks I am still sore from the first time.
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Preaching to the choir, just like Conservative conferences of old, when speeches (Thatcher, Tebbit, even Heseltine) galvanised and energised the party faithful.
Like now, there was no real need to be mindful of the electoral effects, Labour could never win...
Now that their lead seems all but unassailable, the Tories can finally tell us what they truly think and feel - and the honesty is unlikely to poison minds against them, as they might have feared.
Although a natural constituent of the party, I would never have considered again voting Conservative for as long as I felt duplicity and deceit were the order of the day, saying just what was needed to improve electability.
I still have no confidence in the integrity or competence of David Cameron, but the modern Tory propensity to get rid of the leader immediately following an election should be carried forward and we can look forward to real leadership for the Party, the country, Europe and The World...
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Are Drapers Drones are marching again this evening?
Whenever somebody new appears here with only one post to his/her record I start to smell a rat.
Try it for yourselves.
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After reading a post about Margaret Thatcher and Back To The Future, am I the only one that thought 'DeLorean'?
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Well, I thought that was a very good, rounded speech. He used the right tone considering the circumstances, and showed he's in tune with voters concerns / interests - I for one was delighted to hear the mention about the armed forces and Ghurka's.
I'd already decided not to vote Labour at the next GE - not a hard choice really after seeing Labour and Brown consistently trying to ruin this country and the fact that we're going to end up paying for all those mistakes in years to come whoever ends up in office - in fact is anyone still considering voting Labour?
I wasn't convinced about Davey boy though - wasn't sure if he's got it in him - but after today, he's got my vote. The tories are light years ahead of the incumbent muppets.
The decent, fair thing for Labour to do would be to hold a GE asap - but we know they won't do that - there's not a decent one among them - and they don't know the meaning of fair!
Glenrothes is a typical example! Brown is so scared of losing - self self self. I wonder if we'll see this election in 2008?
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Back to the future? Ha ha ha. It was more like back to the past.
You do right what you think is right, he says. Now that's a very good plan isn't it?
He showed us that YES he is a novice and he should be ashamed in trying to put the blame of the GLOBAL economic crises on Brown when Cameron himself GAMBLED with our money and lost 3.4 billion Sterling trying to buy what other countries around the world did not want. He gambled and lost 3.4 billion in 15 , minutes. Now how about that for a good lesson in financial management! Why does he never mentioned what had actually happened in those dark September days of 1992? He was the senior advisor and as senior advisor HE DITHERED to get us out of the ERM as early as July 1992, let alone in September! He keeps mentioning the National Debt when he KNOWS that the present National Debt is lower in % then what it was under a Conservative Govts.
He didn't learn anything from that mistake.
He is now posing (which is what he is good at) as if he is an expert in economic management, and he also gave us his CV. Well guess what Dear Boy Dave. Even I am more qualified then you are and I was only a Bank Manager.
He showed us that he is also livid with Labour's heavy investment in the NHS. He tried to make us forget that we had to wait for years for an operation. He wants us to forget that his party (him included) killed thousands of patients because our NHS was NON EXISTANT. He tried to make us forget that we now have 37,000 more doctors, 52,000 more nurses, and a record number of operations without anyone having to wait for months or years to be treated.
The Tories are the party of the NHS. Get out of this Island you liar!
Did he say anything whether he agrees with more regulation in our financial Industry? or is he in favour of complete de regulation as he supported before this GLOBAL problem emerged?
Did he give us any hints of where he stands? NO he did not.
More protection for depositors. Even that is wrong. What kind of a Capitalist system does he believe in. We voted Labour because Labour agrees with this mythology of less regulation and now we have boy Dave turning into a Socialist, nearing Communist.
Let's be clear about what the Irish did yesterday. They are not conforming with EU financial regulations and they might have to take back the guarantee. It also exposes Irish Banks as having less then 30% of Capital base. The Irish Banks are now more vulnerable then they were 3 days ago. This is going to backfire on them.
Cameron showed us that he is still a manipulative deceitful trained PR, a GQ magazine model who changes his tune according to the audience and circumstances.
There is a very big difference between trying your best to get elected and being able to Govern a whole country.
Did he convince me to get back to the fold.
No, and if anything I am more convinced that with Cameron at the helm, the Tories will loose the next election.
What a slippery, skilful person trained in PR!
You do right what you think is right - Ha ha ha ha! Next gaffe please Dave!
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So Dave is going to do 'tough things to get the best out of the Country'.
This means that he acknowledges that the poor are having a tough time of it and the rich just continue to buy themselves out of trouble.
Dave, of course, will NOT stick to Labour's spending plans-tax credits,new hospitals,winter fuel allowances etc etc etc.
He will shove up taxes on the rich and bail us out of this global credit crunch.
After all, Dave is a leader in waiting and he knows where the cash is.
Somehow Dave, I don't think you'll go down this strategic path.
Methinks you will screw the poor, just as true Tories have always done for Centuries.
Close the door on your way out, Dave. Novices are not needed in this critical time.
I've rported myself to the Tor....moderator, thanks.
Gary
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Same slippery Etonian rubbish, can we really believe that anyone who evokes the memory of Thatcher could run this counrty for all the people. Who funds the Tory Party? Big business and hedge fund managers. Yes they really care for the poor and underpriviliged don't they, thats why the country is in a credit crunch. He may deliver a speech well, but how did they get the timing of the applause so pat, were they all practising last night?
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There IS no such thing as society!
The responsibility for every (in)action, (in)decision), mistake, etc., lies with individuals, not some amorphous indeterminate entity we choose to style as "society."
If there was such a thing as society, wouldn't it have a website?
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"Suddenly - thanks to the economic crisis - the battle between Conservatives and Labour feels all too familiar to those who remember politics before the Blair years."
You mean when there were politics before the age of media manipulation, style before substance and endless sound bites.
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So just like Brown, he had to have a lectern to make him look serious. Clearly the thing to invest in during a downturn is lectern manufacturers....
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Good speech
God the mood in the bunker must be grim tonight.
Poor, poor, poor Mrs Brown!
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67. derekbarker
Its almost over Derek.
Save your cyber ink and use your energy to find a job.
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Do you know what, a lot of people are waiting to see who wins the election in 2010 or whenever and are deciding whether to get out of this country altogether as a result of this. Its time for change, no change and a lot of quality citizens will be off.
I say give the conservatives a chance
We need a new broom to sweep through and get Britain back to where it used to be.
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Time obviously softens memories, if not just the brain. The wonderous Thatcher and her often brutal policies led directly to the misery we now have inflicted upon us by the government we voted for to replace her. Dictatorships have in the past in Europe been voted in democratically to replace rotten regimes. We should be very, very careful.
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Drapers Drones are marching again this evening.
Whenever somebody new appears here with only one post to his/her record - and that one is Anti-Conservative or pro-Labour - I start to smell a rat.
Try it for yourselves.
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But where are the policies? By which I mean, the policies that aren't already being implemented by Labour?
Just a couple of examples, there is already an initiative to isolate all patients with a positive screen for MRSA - this is happening now!
Patient choice - er, outcome measures are currently published on www.nhs.uk and have been for months! Patients are making choices about their treatment right now!
Do the tories have anything new to say at all? Or are they taking tips fromn Boris Johnson, currently taking the credit for initiatives commissioned by Ken Livingstone?
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I will again enter a post or two but you will have to be quick or the arch referrer will make it disapear. I dont suppose you Tories care to much but our friend rollon 2010 has referred me eight times in a week if he has one ounce of courage he will admit to it he did admit to the first one but I wont hold my breath for the other seven,I cannot believe that the moderaters are letting him get away with it, he will soon have this removed he wont stand and defend himself he'll run to the moderaters again,I can only say this to him for goodness sake try to be a man.
Good bye see you in moderater land.
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There was a rare slap in the face moment for me, the bit when he got an extra loud cheer for quoting a Labour MP who said there is the state and the individual and nooothinngg inbetweeeennn.
The way he delivered that was so powerful, I might go seek out a transcribed edition of the speech to quote it directly, very powerful.
Other than that, my critiscism (oh balls I can't spell that way its all rong) my only cri.. is, that, the place they were Broadcasting their values from is indeed Brummieland - identified as the poorest place in all of Britannia - there was no acknowledgement of this, no shout out to these poor people who have been his neighbours this week, he is considerably richer..no, wait, scrap that..
..He is Conservatively richer than yow.
God he really is a bloomin toff, the only mention Brummie got was it's posh orchestra!!
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Wow! The speech was a success then judging by the number of people who have rushed to post negative comments.
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Excellent speech, Brown has no chance in 2010!
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This is the bit that struck me:
A Labour minister said something really extraordinary last week.
It revealed a huge amount about them.
David Miliband said that "unless government is on your side you end up on your own."
"On your own" - without the government.
I thought it was one of the most arrogant things I've heard a politician say.
For Labour there is only the state and the individual, nothing in between.
No family to rely on, no friend to depend on, no community to call on.
No neighbourhood to grow in, no faith to share in, no charities to work in.
No-one but the Minister, nowhere but Whitehall, no such thing as society - just them, and their laws, and their rules, and their arrogance.
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This character's promising us a better yesterday. It's very easy to see beneath the veneer. Clearly the only substance is patrician, old school Toryism. Nick, you shouldn't get star struck by this snake oil salesman - let's hope he doesn't win. Goodness help us if he does - if so, I don't hold out much hope of the national minimum wage being increased, seeing more police on the streets, seeing more tax credits for working families, seeing more free computer access for children - or perhaps I missed these points during Dave Chameleon's speech.
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I see the BBC News are giving the Consveratives quite a platform now. No mistaking who they think should win the next election, then.
The 1980s as an era of 'responsibility'? That's a good one. The decade of loads a money and 'greed is good' is now a Golden Era apparently. What does Cameron actually believe? He wants power, and like all ego maniacs has a charming manner. But he as no values, conviction or belief in equality or fairness. It will be Thatcher v.2 if he wins.
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I don't want to swop the devil for the deep blue sea, no thats wrong, better build a boat, tides coming in, whatever it takes.
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I think the only thing that matters is how Labour and their fans respond to this.
I think it would be most likely they'll try to rubbish his speech, where the mark of a true political party in power would be to remain above it.
I can't see Labour having any left with which to raise their game, so let the ridicule, half truths, sour grapes and muck throwing commence.
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86 grandantidote
We don't share the same political views, and only shake hands at our Christmas football match, but I really miss your comments, and would cheerfully kick the wimp who grasses on you right up the backside.
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His point on experience, how it would mean we would never have anybody new is really an argument for big political reform, highlighting yet another problem with our system.
America allows politicians to gain experience in various branches be it the Senate, the House, State Government and legislature etc. However since Britain has the elected dictatorship of the extremely powerful government, it means cabinet is the only place to get experience.
Also, using the prime minister who was forced to step down after people rioted against her as a reason against experience...not the best idea.
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Purple dogzz (I think that was the name) at 5.11PM said that anyone could have predicted the collapse. Actuaslly that is not quite true and his/her analysis of the system is flawed in its simplicitic approach.
It was Nick himself, I recall, who said it was not predicatble in one of his broadcasts; and hence my response ( and plug of my book).
But the big problem is not with the Federal Reserve but with the "irresponsible" (David and Gordon again) power of money.
Governments need to recognise that they play by the wrong rules - money is global, weight of investible money is greater than national purses and the rules adopted by money managers and governments create a playing field tilted alarmingly against governments and also regulation. The latter (as indicated in my novel) regulates only those who want to be regulated.
The next crash could be at government level - the liabiliites adopted by Ireland and Belgium are frightening. And if the UK adopts similar guarantees ( and does not push them across the the banking sector to counter-indemnify -thus destabilising further some of the weaker banks) they too could be "at risk".
Cameron's speech, I agree, was excellent and his low key approach shows he understands the risks we are running.
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#86 grandantidote
I hope you aren't being referred and posts removed on a pre-text. Of all the pro-Labour contributors here, your posts at least offer up decent opinion and invite similar reponses. Keep at it.
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#60 DistantTraveller
I meant a Blair as in charismatic and power mongering.
Cameron is the man who:
Will create divisions between those who want to be married and those who dont
Will push us farther away from Europe till we get forgotten
Will under fund our services and bring back the Thatcherite days of Haves and Have Nots.
There are millions of us in this country who WANT close ties with Europe, WANT ID cards and want an open and free society - not one ham stringed by outmoded, Vitorian values that have no place in the 21st century.
Still, I am sure he will be popular as ever with the former National Chairman of the Young Conservatives.
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An excellent speech, delivered by a fresh young man who will make a difference. Unlike the morose bumbling figure that is Gordon Brown. Incidentally Nick, where exactly did you get the impression that Cameron was adopting Thatcher's policies ? What the man was inferring was that it required her singlemindedness and lack of fear of upsetting the unions, the civil service , and parliament itself to right the ills visited on the country by nu labour, not that he was returning to her policies.
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61 Range life, Good post sums up most of the Tory no hopers on here. I'm not even convinced that Cameron gave a good speech though.
He can talk I'll give him that but there's a guy in the car showroom just down the road from me who can talk for hours and he's equally insincere,and he's also always trying to talk you into believing his rubbish.
So what you tories are going into raptures about is the fact that you think he can deliver a speech Oh! goody goody, that will solve the countries problems.
I seem to remember another guy who could give a good speech and ran his country well for a while, He was a little fellow with a funny little moustach, God now what was his name, he used to lose his cool at any setbacks as well.
We'll be alright though folks we've got a good speech maker he'll sort things out. Whats that you say? "what about the rest of them," Oh dont worry about them their all experienced men, they know what their doing." but were'nt they the ones who got us in the crap in the eighties and nineties,"yes but they have all changed now, they've all got a new image just like Dave.
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Man with a plan, I don't think so. The reason this country is in a mess is that Thatcher decided to sell off the country to her tory friends. It was David Cameron's party that over saw the deregulation of the building societies allowing them to sell shares encouraging the ordinary person to invest in banks, building societies, railways, telephones, the list just goes on and on. Hasn't the tory party forgotten that they constantly accuse labour of running a nanny state, if 5 years ago labour had said to the banks that they could not allow people to get 125% mortgages, loans, etc, immediately the tories would have accused them of nannying the banking system. The reason this country is in the state it is in is because of thatcher and her parties greed. May I also ask why the bbc are not questioning anything the tories say anymore, would it be that they are too scared to be seen to be supporting our government? Or is it that most of the political editors appear to vote Tory!
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27. Wee-Scamp
I think hes working on the basis that when the Barnett formula gets recalculated you lot will be off.
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Praising Thatcher?
Crikey, that won't go down well with anyone other than Tory Toffs.
Get in the real world "Dave", people hate Thatcher.
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Aw, man. My karma is going to take a beating after today.
My mother was from an older generation and told me about the Tories. I drank their Kool-Aid in the 1980's and it bit me in the ass. Now, it looks like they're pulling the same con again. Since Osborne and Cameron's fumbling, I get no sense they have a roadmap for industry or creating social liquidity. There's nothing there behind the buzzwords and feelgood.
On another point, is it me or does Cameron look fat in that photo? The last time he got caught on camera like that he sweet-talked his way out of it by blaming it on a bad angle. Well, this one is a front profile with his white shirt stretched over the landfill of 50,000 pounds a head dinners he throws at his lair. Cameron can try to redefine the kilo all he likes but the guy is turning into a phat banker before he's got his feet under the door.
I hate talking about people like this but all the Tories ever do is diss peoples ideas and slag them off. It's got worse under Cameron and seeing the backslapping around here is just more of the dumb and corrosive Thatcherite approach. I know a power play when I see it, and I hope Labour doesn't fall for it and just raises its game even higher. I believe they can and I hope they do, cuz I don't wanna live through Thatcherism again. No, siree. I ain't THAT dumb.
Ah, well. Better out than in, I 'spose.
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Thinking of changing my career and becoming an actor. Can anyone tell me which stage school Cameron went to?
Oh what a hoot about character and judgement! Where was Camerons judgement when he was a key member of the Treasury Team that created Black Wednesday
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86. grandantidote
Hey a real old style communist has returned.
No Derek Draper drones here.
Welcome back Sir.
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Tony Blair changed the political landscape (not necessarily for the better) and Cameron has adapted to play by the new rules. Cameron looked at ease and was confident in what he was saying (again whether you believed it was another matter), by contrast, Brown looked akward and tended to put off his audience.
Prior to 1997, Blair had little experience - all he practically had to say is 'I'm not a Tory' and people clapped. His 1997 manifesto is jam-packed with policies that were either considered and rejected or not even started. There was a promise for everyone in that first Labour manifesto - little substance - but people weren't concerned. Blair was able to triangulate himself away from politics and the electorate fell for it. Cameron has learnt that lesson (perhaps Blair has tutored him) and it shows.
Remember, we scorn Cameron's background but didn't Blair go to the Scottish equivilent of Eton? Brown was put into an accelerated learning programme and a large number of the Cabinet Ministers themselves went to Oxbridge or other leading universities (Johnson not included here.) We ushered in this X-Factor Generation in 1997 because we wanted something 'fun' to watch. As a result, the political parties are virtually identical and most (not all) share similar backgrounds.
The next Parliament (2010-2015?) looks like the one to be out of office for. If the credit crunch continues to bite then cuts are going to have to be made - this is going to mean redundancies from the public sector (especially as New Labour have created many of those jobs), private sector and to services. The Olympic Games will continue to suck money from other sources, the EU looks like to be developing even far-reaching policies. Does Brown actually want to be in Government for that - and perhaps Cameron is now asking himself the same question.
Labour need to change their leader. Brown looks lackluster and a jinx...
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All we need is another priveleged twit ready to tell others to get on their bike.
Except the "others" don't have the same shareholdings and social connections.
Sounds more like "I believe everyone is ordinary; everybody shares my ordinariness".
What a load of reheated cold war rubbish!
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Mrs Thatcher is often described as "the milk snatcher".
Brown, on the other hand, has swiped gigantic sums from our pensions (at least GBP 200bn so far, I reckon).
Having your pension nicked is a great deal worse than losing a bottle of milk!
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Nick is this the same David Cameron who gave Norman Lamont a large cigar on black wednesday. There are plenty of good talkers as a previous poster stated they are just waiting to get back to the trough.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
At last a politician that tells us why we are in such a mess. This government has ignored the message that we need to live within our means and has left billions of pounds of debt for future generations to sort out. Some moral compass. As every Labour chancellor since the second world war they have bankrupted this country. It is indeed Time for a Change.
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It was a great speech. As I'm new here clearly I don't know the agendas of some of the Labour apologists, but some of the stuff they seem to be talking about doesn't even make any sense:
46 - "He keeps mentioning the National Debt when he KNOWS that the present National Debt is lower in % then what it was under a Conservative Govts."
Well, when Labour came to power in 1997 the national debt (not capitalised, btw) was around 31% of GDP, now it stands at 39.8% by official figures and 40.6% by real figures. So clearly the Tories know a thing or two about lowering the national debt.
Historically the Tory party has always been about small government and less intrusion, half the people here seem to be under the impression that the opposite is true, again that make no sense at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying small government is good in all sectors, but in most it is true. I don't want the government to know about my personal life.
The problem with political commentators is that they have very little knowledge of macroeconomics, the changes made by the last Tory government to the economy started filtering through in 1995, they lasted for about 10 years. The changes made by the Labour government started filtering through last year, the excessive borrowing, high taxes, generally pointless public expenditure and the large job creation schemes, the chickens are coming home to roost. They really are. I think it was great that Brown didn't give us an election, now he has to try and fix the mess he created, or Darling does without blaming it on his predecessor like a new government could.
Economic policy should be taken out of the hands of the politicians, they are too stupid. Actually everything should be taken out of the hands of politicians, especially the current lot...
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I've jsut read the transcript and was pleased to see that he suggested we should all take responsibility for our actions, this was before he mentioned "rights", which is a significant change from current policies where the "rights" of the individual seem to outweigh any responsibility they should take for their actions.
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107 - I don't hate Thatcher, at least she had convictions. Whether you agree with them or not, at least she had them. What can you say about Brown, or Blair. What do they stand for?
An illegal war?
Excessive borrowing?
Living beyond our means?
Please enlighten the world as to why we should hate Thatcher?
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67 Derek-Barker-Draper
A lot of posts from you in quick succession.
You are clearly rattled that Cameron has demonstrated himself to be a far better option for the country than Gordon.
Give in - be happy - relax .............. and then ignore that "Derek-Hatton-Militant-Devil" on your shoulder telling you that "you can't vote Conservative because you've always voted Labour".
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May I also mention, that one has noticed that the Tory elite in the Hall were wearing a much nicer, more expensive attire at this year's conference, ate more food, drank more, enjoyed themselves more and could afford to spend more, even though we had a year of GLOBAL FINANCIAL turbulence.
If only the Thatcher era was as good!
Good night Nick and well done with your analyses of the day's events.
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Comment 40 by stevodevo:-
"Anyone who basis their vote entirely on a leaders speech in a comfy party get together should have their vote taken away"
Very democratic Stevodevo, very democratic!!
Perhaps it should be: -
"Anyone who basis their vote entirely on a leaders wife?s speech in a comfy party get together should have their vote taken away";-]
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In the debate over Margaret Thatcher, one huge point tends to get completely overlooked.
Mrs Thatcher privatised INDUSTRIES, not public services. She inherited from a near-bankrupt government which was - for no logical reason - involved in car manufacturing (for goodness sake!) and shipbuilding. She privatised INDUSTRIAL companies which had no place being state-owned in the first place.
The privatisation of essential services came later. The coal mines, for instance, were privatised under Major's government. Huge swathes of the public services have been privatised and contracted out, not by but SINCE Mrs Thatcher.
Privatisation of services, which is very different from privatisation of industries, really started with Major, accelerated under Bliar.....
....as has been carried out extensively by Brown (ever heard of PFI?). Come to think of it, wasn't it Brown who invited Mrs Thatcher to visit 10 Downing Street?
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85 eleanorcross
Don't forget that MRSA has risen under this government (cleaning standards have dropped and there are also less beds - so we no longer separate MRSA patients onto an isolation ward).
The reason MRSA deaths are down - are because people are dying of the more virulent CDiff before they get a chance to contract MRSA.
Don't let Tony and Gordon pull the wool over your eyes. Instead listen to the slow hand clapping Doctors and Nurses who howled with derision when Patricia Hewitt told them they had never had it so good.
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If the Thatcherites look like they're making a comeback the only question I have is how many people will be prepared to riot before they have a chance to get in? That's a serious question. Labour may have made a few mistakes but there's plenty of folks who remember what the chill wind of Tory privilege brought the country.
By playing the spin and fear card, Cameron's made the mistake of sensitising folks to these things. When there's the inevitable blow back its going to hammer the Tories hard. I'm not going to feel too triumphalistic about that but, I think, they deserve it and need the lesson. Wealth has protected them from really being tested and a little heat will do them good.
Britain seriously needs change but fundamentals are not the same thing as habit. The sound teachings of history are something the Prime Minister is familiar with while Cameron just drinks ideological firewater and shouts shrill slogans. The domestic trends and emerging global economy is against him. He's committing political seppuku but, I suppose, it's a glorious seppuku.
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86 Grandantidote and 95 Phoenixarisen
Grandi - I don't often find myself agreeing with your basic politics - but I too think it is cowardly and worthless to refer every comment to a moderator.
There have been a few personal jibes - and they will upset people - but on the whole - I'd rather see your comments aired for all to see.
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#101 grandantidote
Your comment comparing David Cameron to "a little fellow with a funny little moustache" is wide of the mark and really uncalled for.
Whatever you think may think about the Conservatives, to compare the leader to Hitler (if that was who you meant) is actually rather insulting, particularly to all those who suffered at the hands of the Nazis. (If you meant someone else, let us know!)
There is nothing wrong with a robust debate, but I can't help noticing that many Brown supporters here seem to resort to personal insults - which is a shame.
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#107
Carrots and peas.....Hmmmmmm
Look, you may believe that the BNP offers you the type of England, you yearn for.
Carrots you are the carrion of political intent,
lost in your rotten aparthied views.
I think your drive for a national Independent England, will never be realised.
Why do you think England is yours and yours alone.....and that it owes you a living.
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Many are stating that he nailed the "Novice" label.
WELL WHAT WOULD HE HAVE SAID IF BROWNS SPEECH WAS NEXT WEEK...Yep Nothing
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A man with a plan?...Reminds me of.. "He's Misstra Know-It-All..."
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The names 'von Hayek' and 'Milton Friedman' the architects/philosophers of Thatcherite economics, have not had a mention over the last week or so... can we have our Nobel Prizes back??
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#117
Mr Cook, are you just stir crazy.
Cameron only rattled the conservatives
on opening up the Euro arguments again.
Very relaxed about labour winning the next GE.
Mr Cook, Derek Draper has rattled all the tories on this blog........Hey......you cant even put your finger on it!
Talk about judgment.....poor....poor....poor
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#99 Gurubear
Well, you obviously don't think much of Blair or Cameron. Fair enough, that's your choice!
But in terms of their policies, your earlier comment that "Cameron is still a Blair" plainly doesn't stand up. There are huge ideological differences, not least in the power of the State.
Yes, there are millions of people who want closer ties with Europe, but there are also millions who don't like the current structure of the EU, and the power given to unelected officials in the Commission.
There are also millions who are fed up with terrible wastage in the EU, and the fact that the accounts have not been approved by the auditors for 14 years in a row.
Criticising the EU does not mean being anti European any more than criticising Brown means being anti British.
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So Cameron's a better communicator than Brown. Knew that already.
If I want to vote for change I won't vote for a party of rich Etonian white men and go back to the 1950s.
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At least David Cameron has plans, instead of preaching about being the right man for the job and insult slinging.... I liked the one about Jim Callaghan. The letter from the Health Secretary Alan Johnson summed New Labour up I thought, a bit like passing the puck.
But GB he's had 10 years experience and still dithers... and he's never been Prime Minister so he is a 'novice' himself here - how pig headed is that?
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Cameron is a good performer that ordinary people like but many have very bitter memories of the Tories who they loath. Brown is just plain unattractive to voters- poor presentation and increasingly uncomfortable - but Sarah almost performed a miracle. Many hate Blair and what he did taking us into the illegal war but are still perhaps willing to give Labour a chance even though their front bench at times looks rather weak. In an election I think Cameron will easily win against Brown but against a leader like Johnson- and until the banana, Milliband- he would perhaps just scrape in. I do not think Brown will suffer because of the current madness as I doubt voters will think the Tories would have done any better. If a big bank goes down and millions lose their savings on top of their pensions then Labour will be dead in the water.
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Just revisting some stuff: Osborne dissed Labour's policies but when he had a media platform to strut his stuff he just came up with a scrappy essay that would embarass a schoolboy. Then, the Tories drop some leading announcements of some big economic plan. This is an old marketing trick to stimulate interest and take it away from competitors. Cameron had his chance to deliver delivered that in his speech but he just hijacked the icon of Thatcher and made some mood music. The man's a bluffer. He's just trying to do what Sony did to the Dreamcast.
I've still got my Dreamcast. I loved the thing as it was so cute,and Shenmue was pretty much a life changing experience for me. If Sega had bit down hard and given it a DVD player it could probably have seen off Sony's marketing campaign. It's a bit of a handwave but, again, if Labour deliver the better policies we know they're capable of then the Tories wind should be geatly reduced. Some folks will always moan but if you ship a killer product it will fly of the shelves. History always forgets the legions talkers. It's the handful that deliver that write themselves into history.
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from reading these postings, it seems that a lot of people liked Dave Snotty's speech - well, all I can say is that too many people today are easily satisfied. It lacked intellectual content and, above all, fire in the belly ... it's the sort of speech made by every Conservative Party leader for the past half century ... advocating sound money and low taxation .. i.e. if you're well off, we'll protect your investments and if you're not ... well, tough. You'll have to struggle through as best you can. .... and then the references to Thatcher ... if experience was needed, she'd never have been elected ... if only! It's the kind of discussion topic you set A Level History students... if only the Communists and the Liberals in Germany in 1930 had got together, Hitler would never have been elected. Do you agree ? .... I suppose it's inevitable really, that people forget and a whole new generation has grown up since, but, the reason why a Labour government was swept to power in 1997 was because Thatcher and her acolytes had made such a monumental mess of this country that it's hard to recall, 11 years later, just how bloody shambolic and awful it was ... and now, a large number of people applaud this elitist buffoon because he wants to take us back to those days ... if only I wasn't too old to emigrate.... still, hopefully, I wont have to ..
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I thought it was a good speech which identified many of the things that people want to change about the way we are governed. In this respect it is very similar to approach taken by Tony Blair in the build up to 1997 - he identified what people wanted to change or see an end to, only for him to quietly forget about them all doing nothing once he was elected!
Tony Benn in a recent TV interview said that the people of the country need to feel represented, and the the current government were not doing that. Nothing Gordon Brown has done recently has addressed that, and this speech by David Cameron is excellent in that respect. Lets hope that unlike Tony Blair, he will follow up his statements by action addressing the issues if he is elected as PM.
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Public sector net debt, expressed as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP), was 43.3 per cent at the end of August 2008, compared with 36.4 per cent at end of August 2007. The increase was largely due to Northern Rock which is now included in the figures from October 2007, the date of its classification to the public sector; latest figures for June 2008 show Northern Rock adding 6.0 per cent to the debt ratio.
Debt peaked at 44.8 per cent of GDP in 1997, its highest since the mid-1980s. The debt ratio then fell steadily as public sector finances improved, reaching a low of 29.6 per cent in March 2002. Since then it has risen. The Budget forecast for the end of March 2009 is 38.5 per cent.
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Thatcherism is back!
Woo Hoo!!!
It will be backed by millions within the next 18 months and DC will get a thumping majority...............and deservedly so!
Finally after 20 years of utter drift and useless Government under Major, Blair and Brown perhaps by 2010 this country will once again begin it's reconstruction based on Thatcherite principles!
There is no alternative!!!!!!!!!!!
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Well at least irs good to see a little more balance on the blog for a change which will no doubt lead to paranoid accusations of media bias, labour spin, multiple identities or labour bankrolling the blogging population.
All the usual politics of fear garbage the Tories have used for years.
Now, Camerons speech was IMO as I expected, very good. His delivery and impression of gravitas was very plausible and thankfully, like Baldrick, He has a plan!
Ubfortunately as other posters have pointed out there is virtually nothing that hasn't been said before or isn't already happening.
Thankfully when the Tories get in there is the Inheritance tax reform to kook forward too. (well for 0.3% of the population, the wealthiest in the country)
this more than anything should scream out to people what the Tories priorities are, always have been, always will be.
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#105 Charles_E_Hardwidge
Do we now see your true colours. Forget youself for a second did we? The most aggresive you've ever been on here, run out of meaningless flowery phrases perhaps.
Stick 'em both on the scales, El Gordo will still be El Gordo. In the meantime anything constructive to say? Thought not!!
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A man with Character - apprently.
Then he goes and read a letter to the Tory masses claiming it came from Alan Johnson
Alan Johnson DID NOT write or send that letter. So already Camera On has shown very poor character
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Draper Clone here. Just been recovering from a laughter attack. Hinge Cameron is just so funny even without Bracket Osbourne (though did give the old scoundrel a glowing mention).
The speech absolutely moved me to tears.....How does the song go?
"I'm an ordinary man, nothing special, nothing grand,
I've had to work for everything I own..."
Yeah right
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Is it a cunning plan.
I heard on Radio 5 this afternoon that Cameron changed his speech at the last minute.
Now I am not joking, apprently Ken Dodd had made contributions to the orginal speech.
I can only assume that Black Adder helped it out with the final one
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129 Derek-Hatton-Draper-Barker
Freudian.............. I see.
You are worried that Cameron has demonstrated better judgement than Free-Laptop-Brown.
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Who is this Derek Draper that all the Tories are so paranoid about, does Derek have a plan
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This was a boring speech. I can't even remember what his main points were apart from him loves Thatcher and Britain is "broken". Nothing new in it. Typical "nanny state" blah blah.
*yawn*
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138 Northern Thatcher
Happy that Thatcherism is back on the agenda.
So am I - Cameron can possibly now lose the next election. Trickle down economics, no society ( broken or not, wont matter ) etc etc.
John Redwood for chancellor ( aaarrrghhh )
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As if any of this matters.
It's just words on a screen.
It was a good speech.
Gordon Brown will ose the next election.
He has failed
All the posturing on here won't change that fact
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Well DC's speech has gained his party a new member.
Me, really struck a cord with his thoughts on the responsibility and the family.
First conviction politician to lead a party since John Smith.
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He spoke with all the authority of a former economic advisor to Norman Lamont.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#144
The diddy men speech with a cunning idea?
Ken Dodd never used a bank......Teee/heeee
No..... Mr Ook, no worries.
Pssssss......reverse tracking component.....
thats old stuff.........
Watch out for the slippery ropes now!
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142.. whay hay
A Christy Moore fan on Nick bloggs
Give the man in the bed more porta !!!!.
PS The BBC word cloud was interesting, Camera On hardly mentioned the environment ( does seem that the husky stuff was all a rouse to seem nice ans concerne ) .
Now 3 years later he is the son of the wicked one from Grantham
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145 boohoousa
No Derek Draper doesn't have a plan - he's a Labour man. Remember according to Hoon the other week, there is no Governmental vision only "a series of measures"
Also 'paranoid' is the wrong word........ 'baiting' might be a better word, because Derek Draper is to head up a 'New Labour Blog Rebuttal Unit'...... ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is laughable isn't it?! Here is some background for you:
http://www.prweek.com/uk/home/article/848968/Labour-Tories-plot-dominate-blogosphere/
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149
Dont you dare compare Camera On ( Im Jogging Now ) to the John Smith. That post in itself made him spin in his grave.
Please let me be the first to aplogize on John Smith behalf, that person didnt mean it, they are just impressionable
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152 Derek(s)
Have you taken up Zen?
That made no sense what so ever..........
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152
I AM NOTHING MAKING IT UP OR TAKING THE YOU KNOW WHAT.
Ken Dodd advises Camera On on his speech..
I am telling the truth. Nick will confirm, it is a fact, I kid you not. Toryfillaroius
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Snappy happy cameron....smile
Climate change...Eh...what ho....
Calamity camera cameron.....wave goodbye
How will be the next leader?
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Not seen any of the speech, but if he praised Thatch.... big mistake...HUGE MISTAKE.
That woman, and New Labours slavish adherance to those policies put us where we are today.
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In post #99, Gurubear ranted:
"There are millions of us in this country who WANT close ties with Europe, WANT ID cards and want an open and free society - not one ham-stringed by outmoded, Victorian values that have no place in the 21st century."
(Spelling errors corrected)
Really?
Ah yes...I believe there were lots of people in Germany in 1939 who wanted all those things, and more in a similar vein. (Though perhaps their, and your, idea of an 'open and free society' might not exactly concur with mine.)
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Nothing is changed about the old game: who is the better master of spin and images?
*The past is used to construct the present.
*The present is legitimised by harking back to the past.
*The future is... the repetition of the above two.
Can't understand what exactly 'character' means in Cameron's speech.
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#156 jonathan_cook
Not a lot derek barker says makes much sense to me. Viz #152 to name one example.
Personally I have the utmost respect for Labour party contributors here, some however, baffle me and don't add much to a reasoned debate.
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138#
"Thatcherism is Back"
Well it would have been if he hadn't let the cat out the bag.
Time for the good old Beeb, our liberal lefty friends to make a few documentaries about the 80's, "world at war" style I suggest. Here's my suggestions for subject matter, first three episodes.
1) 1981 "Riots on the Home Front"
2) 1984 "Coal not Dole" (No soz lads its dole for you northerners)
3) 1987 "Recession strikes - Get used to it"
Any other suggestions welcomed
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148
I wouldnt be so sure If I were you.
Politics is a funny old game.
We still have another party season to go.
We will get out of this financial crisis, probably soon.
Interest rate are almost certainly peeked along with inflation etc etc
This time next year, who knows, we may be praising GB for steering UK PLC throught the choppy seas.
For the Tories the next 12 months, going by his speech, will slowly move more and more to the right. I follow politics and John Redwood is on the TV far to much for my liking these days, seems the Tory right are on the march
you have been warned
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# 127 ... I think he came across more like that marvellous comic character played by the late Ronnie Barker in the silent TV comedy film , the name of which escapes me, ... "Man with a plank"
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Re post #105.
My, my, Mr Crust-E-Sandwich, you really are starting to lose your cool now. What's up? Are you thinking that Gordon Brownjob really has it coming to him now?
Thatcher bit you in the donkey eh? And there was me thinking you were British.
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#157
I'M totally with you......BRILLIANT!!!!!!
Let the action roll..........
Toryfillarious......tee/hee/hee/hee/hee
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154 response
Ohh I get you now, Ive never heard of him.
But for the record, do you mean he is a sort of Iain Dale, Guido Fawkes, Dizzy etc etc.
ie All Tory bloggers who, appart from Iain, hide their identities.
There is also the Tax Payers Alliance, who are made up of Ex Tory Councillors and Tory members. But they dont tell you that, pretend to be for the people with no agenda blar blar blar.
I really coundnt care less who or what Derek is.
The thread is about the New Found Son of the Wicked One dressed in Blue.
And for the record.
In Cambos speech Your Fired begins with a "Y" not a "F" as he claimed
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Perception is not reality.
Perception is reality.
Take your pick.
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pat-the-cat: what you should be remembering is the state of the country BEFORE Thatcher, that was a real mess and it took Maggie's hard and difficult years to fix it all.
Let's hope Cameron is at least half the man she was, maybe, just maybe, he can fix it again.
And Labors can have anothe two decades before they get another chance to mess it up yet again.
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Over recent months about 5% of comments on the BBC have been supportive of Labour.
This speech has clearly been a stake through the heart of the die hard Labour loyalists - because they have suddenly appeared on-line to moan about Cameron
(note they have say nothing positive about Labour!).
Now lets get the garlic, crucifixes and silver crosses out and finish Labour off.
P.S. As much as we like to spar with them DHWilks, CEH, Grandantidote and Balhamu at least try and put forward a positive case for Labour. The bunch of people appearing tonight - on the whole - seem anti everything and with little positive to add.
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I agree 159
When it was announced a few months ago that Margaret the Merciless could possibly get a state funeral, the lines on the lunch time Jeremy Vine shows turned blue. ( how Ironic )
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A man, a plan ... a canal, Panama. I don't know if it is a good speech but its a palindrome alright.
Here's another.
A man, a plan, a canoe, pasta, heros, rajahs, a coloratura, maps, snipe, percale, macaroni, a gag, a banana bag, a tan, a tag, a banana bag again (or a camel), a crepe, pins, Spam, a rut, a Rolo, cash, a jar, sore hats, a peon, a canal ? Panama!
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This is a first post from me for which I will hopefully not be lambasted as one or two have been above... Apologies for the length; like most writers, my first attempt is ridiculously long.
Having dedicated a large portion of my day to the speech of the leader of the opposition, including pre and post analysis from Nick and others, I have to say that I was distinctly uninspired. At times I had the distinct impression that the copy and paste functions on the wi-fi operational Apple macs of the Conservative Party's PR men were certainly on form as the essence of 'change' from Senator Obama's recent speeches--as well as some Tory mantras of years gone by--were included in this latest delivery.
Leaving my partisan differences aside, as I have been asked to do by politicians in recent days, I would have to concede that the speech today was almost as well delivered as it was well polished. I can only imagine Mr Cameron in his hotel room standing in front of those closest to him (if not his bathroom mirror) asking whether his sombre face was quite sombre enough so as not to alienate himself from anyone who might be able to cast a vote.
As a businessman, I often get the flavour when listening to Mr Cameron that we've had the same sort of training. We both know that Corporate Governance is important, that Corporate and Social Responsibility (as well as green / sustainability issues) are bandwaggons that we can't afford to miss, and that saying the right things to the right kind of shareholders at the right time is essential. I'll even pull out the occasional customer letter and refer to its author by name so as to show that I'm in touch with those that matter.
Today I felt as though I was watching a colleague, the CEO of a polished blue-chip company (one that has requested and received share capital from its supporters), but I feel that now is not the time to trust the businessman who knows how to say the right things at the right moment. We know where that has got us.
Investing in Gordon Brown is unlikely to yield a big return... but I think there will be returns in the long run.
Investing in David Cameron, I suspect, would be slightly riskier business. High risk / High reward? Who can say? I've personally had enough of risk for the short term.
I also feel that the discussion of 'change'--the political buzz word that itself will no doubt change if Senator Obama loses next month--is somewhat inconsistent with a reference to Disraeli, a television shot part- dominated by Mr Hague and a speech part-dedicated to Mrs Thatcher.
I look forward to the day when my vote will be based on the candidate I believe in the most rather than the one I distrust the least.
Going on speeches alone--as so many seem happy to do--I would have to say that I prefer the rough and ready of Brown rather than the polish and PR of Cameron. A shame really as I realised today that I quite like the man behind the mantra.
We shall see...
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163 Eatonrifle
When they have made those documentaries, I'd like to see the BBC make a documentary of the book "Squandered: How Gordon Brown has wasted 1 trillion pounds of our money".
You could make an episode out of each chapter - but it is depressing reading (given the aspirations we started out with in 1997)
P.S. In an earlier post I forget to reference your name as a positive Labour supporter whose debate I welcome. Sorry.
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One thing Cameron said did incense me, and he was deliberately trying to appeal to the Jeremy Clarkson types.
He thought that pupils who do not achieve perfection in the higher echelons of school life, in academia or sports should not receive prizes.
Then this evening I took my two kids to swimming lessons. One wasn?t very good, she struggled in the water, but it was only her 3rd lesson. However the others were much better than her. At the end they ALL got a sticker, a badge and a lollipop for their efforts.
Cameron thinks my daughter should have been excluded from receiving a lollipop. - What a lovely character
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Jonathan cook@8
"This was not a Labour Party style give away of laptops and nursery places to make the party faithful sea lions clap."
What a nice chap you and a true representative of the Conservative party. Speaking of making faithfull sea lions clap. The mention of the equally lovely Margaret thatcher would have a similar effect with the faithful Conservative party walruses.
How evil is free nursery places?
The laptops probably will be dedicated diary word processor,internet access devices similar to the 100 dollar laptop given to poor african schoolchildren. These are Linux based not windows so You can't play the latest games on them. I'm sure CEH will be able to back me up on that. Do you begrudge our least well off the benefits given to the poor in Africa? I think you probably do. Typical Tory Pull the ladder up elitist mentality. Who needs Derek Draper anyway when we have CEH, Sagamix and bahlmu ? To regularly slaughter Conservative comments. Derek draper will just get in the way.
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#170 Jon, I agree, pre 1979, the nation was indeed in a bloody awful mess ... but Thatcher's ideas of ignoring the social and concentrating on the economic was, to say the least, heartless and didn't make much sense either... she left, truly, a broken society ... Cameron's belief that you can go back to those core beliefs and mend a "broken society" is plain lunacy.
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124 distant traveller , So that was the guys name. Yes thats right he was obviously a great speech maker, no I was'nt comparing Cameron to Hitler, Hitler was a far more impressive speaker than ever Cameron
could hope to be. Hitler apparently was quite a accomplished painter I suppose it would be alright to compare his painting with someone less accomplished without raisng your heckles. I was just pointing out that there is far more to being a leader than to be able to make a fairly good speech.
Hitler led his country into absolute disaster and his rantings brought him to the end he fully deserved and I hope he rots in hell. I dont think for one minute that Cameron is evil far from it but I'm pretty sure that if he does fool the country into believing again that the Tories are the people to run the country, he will not be the one doing that. their all there the same old faces, Wllets [Willets whoever thought he'd still be there]even had the gall to say that there weren't enough skilled people, condsidering there were only 50,000 aprentices under their rule and there are now 250,000 I think he had a damned cheek but thats what we have come to expect, and they say that labour could spin , what labour learnt about spin they learnt from the Tory masters of spin.
You said
"Whatever you think may think about the Conservatives, to compare the leader to Hitler (if that was who you meant) is actually rather insulting, particularly to all those who suffered at the hands of the Nazis. (If you meant someone else, let us know!)"
Dont try to play that card no one has more sympathy for the victims of hitler than I have.
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I don't "spar". I write, mainly, to please myself. Most of the egos in here are mere stepping stones to illuminating DEAR LEADER'S greater glory. I'm sure, when his benevolent light and grace shines unto the new converts they will rise, nay, ascend to the occasion - their little hearts beating with joy and wonderment.
The Tories kickstarted an astroturfing campaign under William Hague. It was designed to fake grassroots support, and Cameron's just been riding that wave. It's all fake but as their hand is beginning to show it's going to burst the bubble. Folks hate being conned so the Tories are due one heck of a karmic kickback.
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Isn't it sad that many of the commentators here do not appreciate the good Thatcher did in rescuing UK from a wrecked economy. Labour's tax-borrow-and-spend policies nearly bankrupted us in the seventies. Thatcher saved us.
History is repeating itself, because labour hasn't changed its spots.
Cameron has to invoke the memory of Thatcher so that we know the medicine the UK needs now will not taste nice.
Shame some idiots still complain of the taste of the medicine twenty-five years ago, without giving thanks for the good it did. They're the ones who voted in this rabble, they're the ones who are forcing us to take the medicine again.
When will Britain learn?
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Thanks for referring my comment, as it proves that they don't like it up 'em (to coin a phrase!)
Ah, night of the long blades in November, you can hear the blades being drawn slowly across the whetstone.
Being sharpened before being plunged into the back of our not so GREAT LEADER!
Resign, walk away with your head held higher, and prove you are listening to the people you are meant to serve!
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168 Boohoousa
Yes there are right wing blogs out there - but as Guido Fawkes said in response to this Labour Blog Rebuttal initiative......... all left wing blogs fail "because they are crap".
....wise words Guido.
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174
Excellent post, I wish I had written it
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175 Johnathon
PS
Thankyou for the pleasant end to your post.
Your posts are a bit extreme and angry at times but at least not quite as bad as Max, Purple and U67563 (whatever)
So long for now, family time beckons
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A big response to Cameron's speech. I thought it was good - he's a talented speechmaker, and seems a quite likeable fellow.
Not much detail on how policies will work though. For example, the idea that marriage somehow is a causal factor of couples staying together. Accepting that (for a second) what's his plan? Does he think the extra money will get people to rush down the aisle? Does he intend to make it illegal to cohabit if you are not married? I thought encouraging marriage was attempted in the 1980s, accompanied by plunging marriage rates and sky-rocketing divorce.
I wouldn't expect it at this stage anyway - it's not worth the risk. The nice guy representing change will probably do the trick.
Anyway, a couple of points skimming the comments.
#114
If you are going to try to correct other poster, at least get your facts right. You might seem a bit silly to some people if you don't.
"When Labour came to power debt was about 31% of GDP"
You are completely right give or take 12.6% of GDP. Public sector net debt was 43.2% of GDP. Check the HMT Public Finances Databank.
And a £320 billion current budget deficit 1979-1997 was paid for by selling off a vast chunk of state assets on the cheap (BT, British Gas, Water, Housing) and squandering the North Sea Oil receipts. Compare to the current government balancing (or almost balancing according to the Conservatives) the current budget over the last economic cycle.
I know it's 11 years since they were in power, but re-writing history in this way does not wash. And it seems political commentators aren't the only people in need of an economics lesson.
#124
"Many Brown supporters on here seem to resort to personal insults which is a shame"
I give you, for example, an earlier comment on here that Brown was like Harold Shipman. Stalin. Bottler Brown. Gordon Clown. The Nu Stasi. That strange man in Downing Street. He's faintly autistic. Character assassination is an integral part (or at least was) of the Conservative strategy and a favoured tactic of posters here.
Personal insults to any poster daring to deviate from the conventional (right-wing) wisdom on here as well, or those daring to correct the incorrect assertions made by those too eager to make things up to provide extra support for their views.
There are many reasonable posters on here too, who raise good questions about the Government's actions in a sensible way, and can disagree with them politically without all the bile.
I agree with you it's a shame though - from both sides of the debate.
The personal insults, to me, seem to come mainly from one side though.
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The man with a plan
The 1979 plan
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Tory supporters seem to think they OWN Blog land. And complain if someone with none Tory ideals dare post even a single comment. Their arrogants has no bounds.
Guess what Tories not everyone agrees with you. And the next election is not a done deal - believe me. Ask Caroline Speilman.
yes nice polished speech, but what did he say, I cant even remember already.
The conference season will remember this and this line alone
"This is no time for a novice".
Camera On said something about character, but I cant quite remember exactly.
He had a difficult job, the right are on the march at Tory HQ, hence the anti EU sentiments, anti central govenment etc.
Thank god for central gov, or there would be a bank left in the country. And no it isnt Darling job to micro manage banks
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174 Newbymark
The easy way to figure out who to vote for is to contrast the three conferences.
1. Labour spent the whole time talking about itself and the leadership.
2. The Conservatives spent the whole time telling the public what they were like and what they wanted to do in schools, hospitals and with the economy.
3. The Liberals spent the whole time saying that it was OK to reduce public spending and that there is a middle ground between Conservatives and Labour.
....now just apply common sense......... and when the election comes vote for the party that will do the best for the country.
P.S. try and be open minded and not habitual.
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# 181
Actually, i have never voted "Thatcherism Lite" in my cream puff, as thats what Blair and Brown follow.
Its time for different medicine now because the current prescription just isn't working!
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you want to see a landslide at the next election?
include a box that says "anyone but Brown"
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You can read into speehes
At one time he said, about leaving his children to school and watch them walk into the play ground lunch box in hand.
He is going to scrap school dinners- then
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The speech was excellent.
The problem is:
1) Who watched it all
2) What bits will be edited for the news
There was brilliant detail in his speech and some moving parts as well. I just wished that the whole country could watch it all and not just the bits that are chosen for the news. There should now be no way that the "all style no substance" claim can be issued now although I'm sure Brown will still say it.
If Brown beats Cameron in the next general election then there is something fundamentally wrong with the voting public.
Brown's economic plan is what exactly? "To do whatever we have to do". Does he even know? Cameron went into far much more detail about HOW he would do things and not just what should happen in an ideal world.
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184 Eaton.....
Yeah - I am angry - (passionate)
In the same way people used to (and still do) spit "Thatcher".......... I am incensed about 11 years of failure - as I see it.
1997: The promise so high.
2008: Underwhelmed.
........just my view of the world.
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Foreign exchange students.
YES their parents should be vetted first.
Would you send your kids abroad to a home where you didn?t know that their dad had a criminal record
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176 Boohoousa
I think you have got hold of the wrong end of the stick.
The point is to reward kids for what they are good at. i.e. if someone is awful at sport and comes first in a maths test that is fine.
Alternatively there are a lot of kids out there who are terrible at academic subjects - but do well at sport.
I think Cameron is trying to say "praise where it is due". Not - "praise for praises sake".
Remember when you talk about your daughter - that Cameron has a son who has cerebral palsy - who will never win a lollipop for coming first in swimming.
The point is Cameron knows his son will never win a swimming race - but what he is saying is that he'd rather praise his kids for achievements relative to their own life, not just to make them seem equal to all other kids.
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#193
Go on then let us know what detail Cameron went into?
He said nothing new, nothing that thatcher hadn't said in 1979.
Cameron the same man that had the 20Bn cuts in the tories 2005 manifesto?
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Just watched the BBC 10 News.
Camera Ons speech was met with lack lustre enthusiasm by a poll group. When the T word was mentioned the pollsters dials plummeted into the red.
And before all the tory types complain about BBC bias, ITV ( Tory TV, Daily Express on TV ) had the same results.
Speech was a master class in fence sitting
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189 Jonathan
Thank you Jonathan and your passion is both apparent and enjoyed...
I shall be open-minded and non-habitual enough to think outside of the confines of conferences in recent weeks; those hot-beds of rigorous dialectic debate and critical thinking.
The reaction of those undecided voters just televised on Nick's piece about the speech was certainly interesting... by no means an endorsement.
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125.derekbarker
Oh dear Derek you seem very agitated tonight.
I sense deep panic North of the border.
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#194
Do you really believe there was 11 years of failure?
Or can you admit that we have seen improvement in public services, essential increases in the pay of nurses and teachers to ensure recruitment improves, and essential reconstruction of run-down schools and hospitals. That we have seen 11 years of growth. 11 years of low inflation and interest rates. No increase in debt. 11 years of falling crime. 11 years of increasing social liberalism e.g. on attitudes to homosexuality.
There are, obviously, areas where you the Government have performed less poorly depending on your political view. Maybe they haven't got a good bang for the extra money they have poured into the economy. Maybe they should have regulated the financial sector more and ensured bonuses schemes were used sensibly (though that is a strange argument from something reminiscing about the days of Thatcher). Maybe the housing bubble should have been pricked earlier to gently letting down (though, again, that is not really a Thatcherite argument). Maybe you disagree with the high level of immigration we have seen.
But arguing it has been an unmitigated disaster isn't really a sustainable view is it?
Surely you feared worse?
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184. boohoousa wrote:
"174 Excellent post, I wish I had written it"
You probably did!
As you both started posting today (along with sooo many others)...must be time-consuming to keep logging in under different aliases
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newbyMark @174 wrote:
"This is a first post from me for which I will hopefully not be lambasted as one or two have been above..."
A 'first post'?
Really?
Your writing style and content is suspiciously like that of that ever-modest sage Chuck E Hogwash. A casual perusal of your prolix and somewhat self-reverential post indicates many similarities - especially with regard to technology, long/short termism and oriental buzzwords.
I especially liked the preemptive "Apologies for the length; like most writers, my first attempt is ridiculously long."
How did you know that you were going to be long unless you had prepared the post beforehand? Experienced (i.e. not novice) commentators here know that if you paste a comment prepared elsewhere (e.g. on Word) then certain punctuation marks will not 'translate' well. Yet your first effort is virtually flawless.
Interesting.
Do others share my suspicions?
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196
NO NO NO NO 196... he was not making that comment in ref to his son, or the weak, or those who just dont try. I heard the speech - yourre miles off.
The comment was plain, he was in Jeremy Clarkson mode, wereby a a boy or girl who is last, not first, should be told hard truths regardless of the consequences. Dosent he adovate Hard Love
In this day and age, the system of praise does work, carrot not stick Cameron is harking back to the days of caning etc.
Condemn millions to belive they are worthless, because they were continually told they were.
Sorry 196, you are being an apologist to his comments
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177. dhwilkinson wrote:
"... we have CEH, Sagamix and bahlmu"
Hmmmm....
sagamix and Balhamu, although we disagree on virtually every topic, you both seem like reasonable guys/gals (?), do you really want to be lumped together with Chuck?
It's bad Karma, man.... zzzzzzzen.
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201 Balhamu
I genuinely believe we have suffered 11 years of failure.
Partly - I concede- this is about expectations management. I think Tony oversold what Labour would achieve in Government.
In the main, however, I suggest you read the provocatively title "Squandered: How Gordon Brown wasted 1 Trillion pounds of our Money".
........don't worry, despite the title, it puts the boot into previous Conservative governments as well.
That book, looks at value for money and gives a fairly in depth numerical analysis of Labour's record. The record is shocking.
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202 Paranoia has set in in Tory Land.
Like Camera On nothing to say , other than posts about what none cameron supporters think or say..
Dont you think that is a more saliant point
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#201
Obviously I meant "areas the Government have performed more poorly"
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# grandantidote 179
You say "I was just pointing out that there is far more to being a leader than to be able to make a fairly good speech".
I don't think anyone would disagree there is more to being a good leader than just making a good speech. However, a good party leader should also have the skill to make a speech that appeals to the voters.
Brown is sometimes criticised for not being a good communicator. Personally, I think this is unfair. Brown's lack of appeal to the voters is really due to his message; I doubt people are that fussed about how it is delivered.
You say: "Dont try to play that card no one has more sympathy for the victims of hitler than I have"
With respect, you're the one who brought it up....
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Im the man with a plan
.. not sure what the plan is though
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Cameron Retro Thatcher ( aaaarrrghhhh )
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@153
How's it goin'? Everyone but the southern England fundamentalists are just gonna love the mention of the Thatcher woman.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
What was interseting about the Tory conference was the number of delegates who were in their 20@s and 30's. A good thing, but they were all still in pin stripped suits and very expensive shoes and ties. No tie is out this party season
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boohoousa @176,
There is a difference between getting a lollipop and sticker in recognition of effort and participation and an award (prize) based on excellence (i.e. achieving the best results).
Effort and Excellence. Both - and rewards for both - have valid places in the classroom as in life.
It is the attempt by the Left to abolish the latter that was the subject of Cameron's comments.
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#206
I thought that book was written from the political perspective that any expenditure by Government (short of police, defence and civil law) was a complete waste of money?
I'm sure you could write similar books about waste in the private sector if you were so inclined.
If you call the past 11 years failure, Cameron's got a lot to live up to.
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204 Boohoosuau
Nope - the point is:
A child can come last (that is fine) - but if they do well and have tried hard compared to every other attempt they have made before - then praise is due.
There is zero point in praising children equally, irrespective of effort or attainment for that specific individual.
I'm apologising for nothing - just trying to make the perspective clear to you.
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@40
"Brown's been disappointing over the past twelve months but he's still a more sound leadership option than Little Boy Blue, regardless of what the Tory groupies on this blog and Nick Robinson might think, once they've finished their much-needed cold showers." Steve
Sir please can you provide me with some information?
All I request, is that your good self (or anyone else for that matter) list me 10 actual labour policies,brought in since Gordon Brown became prime minister, saying he is "the change thats needed"
thankyou in advance.
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Nobody can doubt Cameron's ability to deliver a speech every bit as well as Blair but where is the substance?
Is he a Thatcherite or a reformer? Who knows. Osbourne has been invisible for weeks apparently with nothing to say about the economic chaos, shown up by Vince Cable who is supposed to be from the irrelevant 3rd party.
Cameron resembles Kinnock in 2000-02 flying high because of a deeply unpopular government but can anyone other than the Conservative core believe that Osbourne would cut the mustard as Chancellor. Having called for more de-regulation- cutting all that New labour "red tape" that has been stifling business, now he apparently thinks we need to do more regulating. Not a peep out of him about excessive credit 'underpinned' by inflated house prices or excessive executive bonuses distorting and driving poor decisions in the boadrooms of banks, or of cutting back on 125% mortgages with 7 times salary or "self-certification" or the turning of 'buy-to-let' investment into pure sepculation on the future rise of capital values. It's true that the buble has grown and expanded until it popped under Brown but he was just following on from the Lawson changes under Big Bang and the de-mutualisation of the Building Societies.
The problem is that Blair just re-packaged the thatcherite reforms to make them less harsh - he adopted Conservative liberal economics - that was the Blair USP. What is the difference between Blair and Cameron - who knows?
Evoking Thatcher was a mistake if he wants to go beyond the Conservative core vote - she remaisn extremely divisive and to many if he supports Thatcher then his party hasn't changed. Cameron hasn't found his Clause 4 - he should have stuck with renouncing Thatcher's extremism while he was the party's only hope of election.
Cameron is in danger of repeating Kinnock's mistake - there is a desire to get rid of New Labour but not at any price. He doesn't look credible.
His best bet would be to move Osbourne and stick Ken Clarke in as shadow chancellor that would spook Brown and undermine his lack of novice charge.
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#217
Cameron was alluding to e.g. fixed quotas for A-grades at A-level and abandonment of the target to increase access to higher education, and fighting against trying to increase the proportion of working-class kids at elite universities through making allowances for their background (though he does not have the guts to come out and say that, preferring to dress it up as fighting against political correctness).
I think that is entirely wrong-headed.
Imagine a race between two equally talented 100m runners.
One is kitted out in the latest sports gear, and has been eating a well-planned diet to get the most out of their body (their parents are wealthy). They have also taken performance-enhancing drugs (expensive private schools with intensive tuition) and also have access to the best coaches in the world (the social connections of their parents and ability to act middle-class)
The other is running bare-foot. They have been unable to afford the dieticians or the diet of the other (they are in poverty). They have taken no drugs to help them run (inner-city comprehensive), and have coached themselves (their parents are working class and have no education past the age of 15).
The first runner wins the race in 9.6 seconds (3 A grades at A-level). The second comes runs in 9.8 seconds (3 B grades at A level).
Should we not a) try to remove the second runners disadvantages; b) allow for the handicaps they face in determining who the best athelete is - Ben Johnson or Carl Lewis?
That's one key difference between the left and the right on education. The right would declare 'Ben Johnson' as the winner.
When I was at university, I found the heavily coached (but better qualified) private school kids found it a lot harder going than the kids from working-class backgrounds who had to slog their guts out with a lot less help to get into university. They were better able to think for themselves and motivate themselves to work than the 'more intelligent' children.
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@99 "There are millions of us in this country who WANT close ties with Europe, WANT ID cards and want an open and free society - not one ham stringed by outmoded, Vitorian values that have no place in the 21st century."
Well move to mainland Europe then, because there are millions MORE who don't want closer tie with the EU or ID cards. They DO want an open and free society, but that is NOT what labour offers.
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131. At 7:53pm on 01 Oct 2008, bedjockey wrote:
So Cameron's a better communicator than Brown. Knew that already.
If I want to vote for change I won't vote for a party of rich Etonian white men and go back to the 1950s.
I want to vote for a party of poor State educated black men and go back to the 1950s.
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#203 Max Sceptic
I find it somewhat bizarre that my post (#174) has provoked accusations both of ghost-writing and excessive pre-preparation... Perhaps it has discovered the methods that others employ on this blog.
I find it disappointing--but in-keeping with modern political times--that I have to defend my style rather than my substance to those who are suspicious of a well-constructed sentence.
It may also seem completely ridiculous to the more experienced writers here, but I knew that my submission would be long, because I had considered what I would say before I posted it.
I find it beautifully ironic that my polished prolixity--as flawlessly Oxbridge trained as Mr Cameron--has caused max[imum] scepticism and suspicion. Perhaps you now see why some in this country find Mr Cameron suspect, disingenuous and difficult to trust.
Please consider my character and judgement, rather than my prose and semi-colons, and give me the benefit of the doubt...
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209 Distant traveller.
I say "I was just pointing out that there is far more to being a leader than to be able to make a fairly good speech".
You say,
"I don't think anyone would disagree there is more to being a good leader than just making a good speech. However, a good party leader should also have the skill to make a speech that appeals to the voters."
I reply
A good party leader should have good policies and carry them out. He should have the courage to carry on when all the hysteria is going on around him, and be able to resist all the stupid name calling from poorly informed chancer's he has to be resolute and stick to his job steadfastly, making good speeches might be a bonus but substance behind the speeches is what counts, and thats why Gordons speeches are far superior, not flowery which sways the less thoughtful amongst us but down to earth, which right now we need to be .
You make a mistake old chap I didn't bring up the name Hitler, you did remember.
"Whatever you think may think about the Conservatives, to compare the leader to Hitler (if that was who you meant) is actually rather insulting, particularly to all those who suffered at the hands of the Nazis. (If you meant someone else, let us know!)"
I replied,
124 distant traveller , So that was the guys name. Yes thats right he was obviously a great speech maker, no I was'nt comparing Cameron to Hitler, Hitler was a far more impressive speaker than ever Cameron
could hope to be. Hitler apparently was quite a accomplished painter I suppose it would be alright to compare his painting with someone less accomplished without raisng your heckles. I was just pointing out that there is far more to being a leader than to be able to make a fairly good speech.
And I stick by that.
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Conservatives huh, who led us to this point with relaxing the rules, creating opportunities for the banks to lennd ever greater sums, who believe that competition is the greatest thing since sliced bread......hmmm. These are the same people who destroyed our social fabric wreaked havoc in our industrial infrastucture, brought the market ideology to the fore and then made millions by selling off the few jewels we had left. They promoted the idea that businesses run by commercial managers were best (look at the banks now!!) and who do not believe in social cohesion.
Oooooohhhh yes I really want to vote for this pompous load of expletives so that they can bring more of this back. Maggie oh Maggie, she was the worst of them all and any leader who invokes her name as a way of getting power is dangerous indeed. Maggie was Shiva the destroyer of worlds!!
Further DC, is actually funded to a very significant degree by hedge funds, so what chance do you think that he and his ilk will bite the hand that feeds?
He comes from a top school a top university as do many of his colleagues in the shadow cabinet. Be clear about this they do not care for England or it's people they care about themselves about perpetuating their status and position.
I accept fully that labour has done many wrongs in it's time and am seriously worried by many of their policies.
The only alternative so far with any credibility (because they have not abused it yet) are the Lib Dems.
Finally, until we dispense with lobby poltics - special interest groups et al getting access to ministers and MP's and influencing voting will we stand any chance of getting politicians back where they belong - answering to us, the public. No politician should be allowed a meeting with groups et al that is not fully open to members of their constituency and the media.
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223 newbymark
Well said Mark, I get criticised frequently on here for my spelling my typing and grammar and I left school at fourteen years of age and never had a days schooling since,now you come on the blog and you have obviously had a very good education and the same guys who criticise me are now criticising you.
you see my friend if you stay on these blogs you will find that the Tories on here will use any ploy in the book to try to win their argument, watch for the stats they find them every where but they are always confronted with a different set that counteract the ones they produce.
One or two will sink to having your posts removed when losing a argument.
Good luck! I hope you stick around,
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220
You complain about the 'unfair' advantages that middle class have over inner city children in getting ahead.
The Labour party has had 11 years to remove these disadvantages and have failed
20% of children are still leaving school functionally illiterate and innumerate. Why because they will not confront the unions and educationalists who reject synthetic phonics as the way to teach children to read, who reject rote learning of times tables in whole class environments and retain out of date teaching methods that have been completely discredited. Middle class parents who go private are merely buying a type of education that the state will not provide i.e. single sex grammer schools. Re introducing those in sufficient numbers would do more to improve access to higher education for disadvantaged children than all the tinkering that Labour has done
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Dear Nick, thank you for your great reporting and may I be allowed to add my views please.
Such speeches are great, but surely actions are louder than such hollow words?
Unfortunately we are one of those families torn apart, but we have sort support from our Conservative council, being Arun District. We have even sort help from the local Conservative MP Mr Nick Gibb, only to be ignored in both cases.
We would like to live as a family unit and do the right by our children, but we are not even given a hearing.
Does that fall in line with such speeches?
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I always thought that the party conference season waas a way for the parties to thank their party faithful for their canvassing and other hard work performed usually on a voluntary basis. Unless the politicians who make speeches are hooked up toa lie detector machine I always tend to take whatever they say with a pinch of salt!
In any case a 50 minute speech is too short to go into policy detail. This has been proved with budget speeches in the Commons, where detail is gleaned from the small print in document but not spoken out aloud.
By the way, Nick what are the odds at this European Summit on Economic crisis held in France, that the gastronomic fare will be a big mac and fries to reflect a period of austerity or will it revert to type and be a slap up 8 course meal with fine wine?
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# 224 grandantidote
You say: "A good party leader should have good policies and carry them out"
Yes, I agree.
You say: "...and thats why Gordons speeches are far superior"
No, I don't agree. I'm not commenting on the 'quality' of Gordon's speeches per se, but on the policies.
Labour has only itself to blame for its unpopularity. Labour's legacy of doom includes: High taxes, high borrowing, high wastage, ID cards, ineptitude holding private data, HIPs, broken promise on referendum, lack of parity for English voters compared with those in Scotland, , 42 days detention without charge, target culture for Police and NHS (instead of focussing on service-users' needs), denial of drugs for Alzheimer's patients, fortnightly rubbish collection, local government 'cabinet' system, powers of local government to snoop, etc etc.
You say: "You make a mistake old chap I didn't bring up the name Hitler, you did remember"
I say, you started it!
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People on here who go on about about Margaret Thatcher's faithful Conservative walruses and are concerned about a return to Thatcherism seem to forget that she was drummed out of her position by her fellow party members after a very public coup! I began by respecting her approach but like all leaders who have been in position too long I think she became arrogant, relied too much on a small circle of sycophants and forgot about The People not unlike a certain Gordon Brown.
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newbyMark @223,
I hereby tender my sincere apologies.
I am also ashamed that I gave you the impression that I was suspicious of, and opposed to, well constructed English writing.
(This is the second time I've apologised to a blogger in the last 24 hours. Am I getting soft? No. Just trying to do the right thing in the face of an inundation of Drapers Drones. And no: this doesn't mean that I'll be less insulting to, and pugnacious with the likes of Chuck E. Hogwash).
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230:
I think most political commentators have already observed that both Gordon Brown and David Cameron made good speeches in the circumstances and that not much has changed in terms of their popularity. We will see when the next set of polls come out. For grandy to state that one was far superior to the other is a rather stupid statement in my view. We have another 2 years to go and a lot of water to flow under the bridge before The Electorate make their final judgement on 13 years of Labour rule.
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grandy wrote:
"One or two will sink to having your posts removed when losing a argument".
You still don't get it do you grandy. You've had scores of posts removed. Those that I was quick enough to read before they were removed contained all kinds of offensive remarks aimed at those bloggers you disagree with. I can't really repeat them or I would have my post removed. I'll try:
Referring to someone as a little creature that lives in a pond (similar to a frog).
Saying that someone has a large frontal orifice.
Accusing someone of being very young (immature if you like).
There are so many more offensive comments that didn't even bother to address the blog topics. I'm sure someone will back me up on these points.
The BBC moderators wouldn't have removed your posts without good reason or are you accusing them of bias against you? Be careful what you say in reply.
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# 234 misswaldorf
I'm certainly not defending any offensive remarks (such as those examples you give) but I'm not sure you are entirely right that "BBC moderators wouldn't have removed your posts without good reason"
According to the guidelines, "A moderator's job is to remove messages which break our House Rules. Messages will not be removed for any other reason"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/messageboards/newguide/popup_checking_messages.html
If you look at the house rules, it mentions messages which are "racist, sexist, homophobic, sexually explicit, abusive or otherwise objectionable" etc.
It seems to be the case that if someone clicks 'complain about this comment', the presumption is that it has broken the House Rules and the comment is often removed. I have had several messages removed in the past, and I can state categorically they did not break any of the House Rules! I wrote to the BBC to complain and pointed out that to leave a public message saying "This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules" was in effect branding someone as making racist (or similar) remarks, when they had not done so. Unfortunately, there is no comeback or means of appeal, other than to leave another message protesting your innocence!
So, yes you are right to object to postings that genuinely offend - and I think it's a shame that some participants feel the need to make unpleasant comments.
However, I do question the motives of some people who click on the 'complain' button. I suspect some people complain just because they want the comment removed. The Moderators really should investigate complaints properly uphold their own rules.
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234. At 3:15pm on 02 Oct 2008, misswaldorf :
Accusing someone of being very young (immature if you like).
I'm sure someone will back me up on these points.
The BBC moderators wouldn't have removed your posts without good reason or are you accusing them of bias against you? Be careful what you say in reply.
Sorry misswaldorf, but I do not back you up. Generally the BBC bend over backwards to be politically correct, musn't be frank about those in our midst, etc. That's their agenda, and we cannot alter it, despite paying their wages.
Regarding grandantidote's personal insults, well let him make them, sticks and stones etc.! Seriously, I loathe censorship and am against moderators, whereas grandantidote is a gentleman who believes in it. Grandantidote and I do not share the same views, but I think it is a gross violation of free speech to remove his or anybody else's postings. If they moderate your postings I will again be very cross.
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# 236 Phoenixarisen
Yes, I'm also unhappy about censorship, but as the 'publisher', the BBC could be at risk of legal action if it permitted messages that in effect broke the law for inciting racial hatred etc.
However, removing a message should be done only when it genuinely breaks the House Rules, not merely because someone complained.
The problem is compounded when the moderators leave a message to say the posting was removed because "it broke the House Rules" when in fact it did not. People who did not see the original post may conclude that the person was guilty of offensive behavior, racism (or similar).
Personally, instead of 'complain', I'd like to see two buttons: Agree or Disagree, with a tally of scores. That would be much more interesting and let us see which way the wind is blowing.
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234 Miss Waldorf
Now aren't you being a nasty person I am quite sure that you will have seen a number of posts supporting the fact that my posts were being referred as a act of spite rather than for any other reason and unfarly.
I have twice before taken the trouble to explain my attitude mostly to you and some people on here and once took the trouble to produce a number of posts to that effect, I find many on these blogs quite offensive including your man waldorf calling me "a miserable little worm" but I didn't run to the moderaters and complain and then out of spite continue to refer to everyone of his posts to the moderaters.
I shall not in future go out of my way to explain to you my actions. to you.
With regard to
"Saying that someone has a large frontal orifice."
That sounds disgusting and had I have said that Miss Waldorf I would have deserved being moderated it would be much less offensive had you have said big mouth as in fact I did,
And as for me
"Accusing someone of being very young (immature if you like)."
If everyone that used that expression on here were moderated there would be very few bloggers left for you to annoy.
I have been called" old man" and not in the nice way I was also referred to as there is "no fool like an old fool," I was told by someone close to you "if you cant use better grammar than that I dont want to debate with you"
To go on
"Referring to someone as a little creature that lives in a pond (similar to a frog)."
You mean that I called somebody a Toad
now that was really going over the top wasn't it?.That was almost as bad as Waldorf, dutchy as he was then, calling me a miserable little worm, dont you think
You dont need to worry about having your posts removed we socialists believe in free speech but maybe one day you will upset some Tory bloggers if you do, watch your back.
You say
"There are so many more offensive comments that didn't even bother to address the blog topics. I'm sure someone will back me up on these points."
And you think this post of yours 234 does address the blog," Back to the Future"do you. ? are you for real. Having a go at me has nothing to do with back to the future.
We have had several referrers on these blogs going back to when you were Nigella Awsome there was Mutleyspup who was a serial referrer hes gone since being found out ppl another one he's gone very quiet of late no more crazy poems, although this may inspire him, and now we have a new referrer whose title I dare not declare. or this post will be removed immediately but most of you have read my earlier posts before he had them removed.
The people on these posts of all parties want free speech, they want to express their views in their own way not in some namby pamby PC way, we dont want any mealy mouthed do gooders telling us that we mustn't say this or we mustn't say that.
If we think someone has a big mouth we want to say just that we certainly dont want to say what you said, If we think someone is behaving immature we want to say that their behaving immature and as for toad or worm well whats wrong with that there both Gods creatures.
We are all adults and being on here is a cut throat world where we fight our corner for the party of our choice many things are said but like in a game of rugby if we were to meet later we would all sit down and have a drink and a laugh together as I have told you before its not serious the only people taking any notice of us is ourselves, dont get hung up on it nobody cares what you or I think its just a game for us oldies and those that have nothing better to do.
There are other blogs for the more delicate natured but you wont find many of the guys off here on them,so Nigella I think that you are probably out of step with most people on here and your examples only make you look a bit silly.
Just think of all the inappropriate names you and others call GB
even refering to his "dead kid and the other one sick". If you want to have a go at anyone to vent your spleen, there are plenty on here worse than me and maybe closer to home.
Your not a referrer are you?.
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237:
Yes, perhaps an agree and disagree button might be the way to go just as on the main HYS page you have the option of endorsing comments that you particularly identify with. The only problem with that is that you would still have people complaining about the fact that the majority of opinions on here are weighted against Gordon Brown and The Government which is probably true. All I would really say is that I have more respect for those on this forum that use reasoned arguments to support their case than those that are occasionally personally abusive. Is that too much to ask?
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235 Distant traveller,
I agree with everything you say except for
"I'm certainly not defending any offensive remarks (such as those examples you give) but I'm not sure you are entirely right "
The examples she gives are " Big mouth", calling someone "immature" And calling another person who was deliberately blocking my posts a "Toad" not particularly offensive would you say.
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239 Miss waldorf perhaps you should read
before cricising me.
232. At 2:55pm on 02 Oct 2008, MaxSceptic wrote:
newbyMark @223,
I hereby tender my sincere apologies.
I am also ashamed that I gave you the impression that I was suspicious of, and opposed to, well constructed English writing.
(This is the second time I've apologised to a blogger in the last 24 hours. Am I getting soft? No. Just trying to do the right thing in the face of an inundation of Drapers Drones. And no: this doesn't mean that I'll be less insulting to, and pugnacious with the likes of Chuck E. Hogwash).
Sound familiar?
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236 phenixarison thank you for putting the lady straight, the only mistake you made was
"whereas grandantidote is a gentleman who believes in it,"
No I dont believe in it but the problem is that someone with less patience than I might retaliate by referring in revenge and it could escalate so that the blogs would become untenable.
See you in the trenches.
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grandantidote @241,
Do you really want to rouse my ire?
You are such a glutton for punishment. (And - at a self-confessed 20-stone - much else beside one can assume).
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243 max sceptic. So someone has had you moderated, I know that you dont like me and I certainly dont like you, the trouble is trying to find out who these people are I know who's been having me moderated but now you have been moderated and I am sure your post was having a go at me, I hate all these referrers it doesn't give you a chance to follow the thread, I know that I have said some unpleasant things about you in the past and you about me but why dont people keep their noses out, your quite capable of defending yourself as I am. In fact I quite enjoy defending myself.
I regret that you have been moderated as much as I dislike you views.
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239 miss waldorf
A little apology from you wouldn't go amiss after finding your remarks had no support.
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#238 grandantidote
Well said sir, we'll never agree, being miles apart politcally, but they way you defend your corner in a largely civilised fashion is to be applauded.
Earlier today I referred a post and to my regret I didn't have the courtesy of informing the poster immediately afterwards. I will not repeat this mistake.
The post from memory, referred in unpleasant terms to a street party following the death of Lady T. For me, as a poster vehemently opposed to Gordon Brown, these words or similar have no place here.
Maybe we can all develop our own etiquette in a similar fashion, giving other contributors the courtesy of informing them about referrals.
#232 MaxSceptic has got the hang of this respect thing by the looks. What a great example to follow.
For sure I am not saying, dumb the place down, but the entire thing would be a far better experience without the spite and apparent baiting sometimes obvious.
I have tried to avoid offering up too much today and yesterday but sometimes, somethings I read compel me to respond
kind regards
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242. , grandantidote wrote:
"See you in the trenches.
There are an awful lot of squirrels without bushy tails in the trenches!
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Did you know:
THE number of Islington Council staff earning more than £50,000 a year went up this year by around a third - from 91 to 122.
Guess theres no credit crunch at Islington Town Hall.
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Opps sorry about 248. Its a political point.
Im on the wrong stream
Sorry if it interferes with the bickering.
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237. DistantTraveller
Your suggestions seem sensible, and I especially agree with :
However, removing a message should be done only when it genuinely breaks the House Rules, not merely because someone complained.
The problem is compounded when the moderators leave a message to say the posting was removed because "it broke the House Rules" when in fact it did not. People who did not see the original post may conclude that the person was guilty of offensive behavior, racism (or similar).
I also think that instead of encouraging a "grassing" habit, the nom de plume of the objector and the reason for wanting a comment to be removed should be published. That way, a person has a chance to prove his/her innocence and not be branded as an offensive person. This would stop the nasty habit of spitefully requesting comments to be removed. We have enough to contend with regarding the mdoerators, we don't need fellow bloggers to hound us.
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grandantidote @244,
At the time our last skirmish - about a month or so ago - I mentioned my hatred of censorship and added that I would never 'refer' another commentator.
I fully accept your word that you did not refer my post @243 and while, I disagree with almost all you say (and the way you say it) I recognise you to be true to your word.
Ilicipolero @246,
Whilst I appreciate your kind words, I find it abhorrent that your 'referred' - in effect, censored - someone's comment.
I am against censorship on principle - without exception - and in matters of principle there can be no compromise.
To 'refer'/censor someone because you disagree with their views - or find them 'insulting' or 'unacceptable' - is in itself both insulting and unacceptable.
If an Islamist fundamentalist, a neo-nazi or any other form of scum wants to 'have their say' - then fine by me: Let their words form the rope from which they will ultimately hang.
Censorship is the start of a slippery slope that ends in death camps. This is no exaggeration.
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#251 MaxSceptic
I take your point and respect your opinion.
In hindsight, something I as much as anyone benefit from, I regret both the referral and not giving the poster the courtesy of telling him/her. For sure, as far as I am concerned, that was my first and last time referring a poster. Especially since subsequent posts on a similar theme were considerably worse.
I guess you have to make a mistake to be wiser after the event. A foolish person makes the same mistake twice. I'm no fool.
kind regards
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I think the rugby analogy elsewhere today is spot on. For 80 minutes thirty blokes try and knock seven bells out of each other and then retire to the pub for the inquest best of friends. I'd happily stick my hand in my pocket for most of the regulars here, that's always provided the guys in the red corner would take my tainted "Tory" drink, ho hum!!
That's it for me tonight got a meeting at 0900 in the morning and haven't even found the place yet.
Good night all, let's do it all again tomorrow
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Ilicipolero @252,
Sincere thanks.
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243 Max sceptic
you say
Do you really want to rouse my ire?
Max as clever as you think you are and as thick as you think I am, it would still give me great delight to rouse your ire,
I'm trembling, not with fear but with delight.
Perhaps I should relate once again the only statement that Margaret Thatcher ever made that went down well with me.
When being bombarded with questions from the opposition she remarked"Come on I am beginning to enjoy this" and for that moment and only that moment she was my hero. and like her i have always spat in the face of conflict.
You say
You are such a glutton for punishment. (And - at a self-confessed 20-stone - much else beside one can assume).
Well Max as much as your rather inflated ego might tell you there has never been a time when you were able to punish me, even when you resort to cynical remarks like the above.
Yes I am a 77 year old man i'm six two or was, I guess I might have shrunk a little with age, I'm twenty stone and in a wheel chair. As well you know of course you've made your crack about my age previously,
now its my weight and I guess next it will be the wheel chair, the funny thing is I have this picture of you in my mind as a Adonis.
Could I be mistaken?
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246 Ilicipolero,
Thank you for your support.
I am sorry that you fell by the wayside and referred but at least you have had the courage to say so, not like some of the creeps on here.
I agree with you regarding 232 max I had to look several times to be sure it was him' he did fine and then he went and spoilt it by saying
"And no: this doesn't mean that I'll be less insulting to, and pugnacious with the likes of Chuck E. Hogwash)."
Sadly, I guess he can't help himself but at least it was a step in the right direction, for a moment there he showed his human side, I'll bet he's a pussy cat really!
Thankyou also for backing my theory about the lads having a drink after the furore of the rugby field, as I keep saying, being on these blogs is good fun and it saves us pounding our wifes/partners ears about politics.
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251 Max Sceptic thank you for your post as you say we are poles apart and your remark below I think applies to both you and I.
"I disagree with almost all you say (and the way you say it) I recognise you to be true to your word. "
That be true ole timer.
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Hallelujah! My post @243 has been 'un-moderated'.
Proof positive of life after death?
grandantidote @255,
You are, as ever, mistaken.
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237 distant traveller
Yes I think the referral system needs a overhaul, it seems that anyone can just complain and of it goes, very rarely to be seen again, complaining about it removal is akin to knocking your head against a wall and almost as painful.
I had thought that when someone referred , the moderaters would read the post and then decide if if required removal but it seems not, if that was so I think the moderaters should also read the post that inspire the other person to reply perhaps a little strongly. i think your idea has some merit but whats to stop two people working in unison to block your post. I think as they say we are on the horns of a dilemma as they say. Unfortunately the bbc will not take a blind bit of notice what we think.
We have once again unfortunately bloggers in our midst like Miss Waldorf who appear to revel in the fact that some people are being unfairly referred.
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258 Max sceptic, A rather sweeping statement even for you,
"You are, as ever, mistaken."
Is this the bit I was mistaken about.
"I have this picture of you in my mind as a Adonis.
Could I be mistaken?"
Or was it something else?
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250 phenixarison,
The best suggestion yet.
"I also think that instead of encouraging a "grassing" habit, the nom de plume of the objector and the reason for wanting a comment to be removed should be published"
I like it it would cut down reverals by95% good thinking fellow tailess squirrel.
Lets hope the BBC pick up on it.
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253 polero, yes I'm sure we would take your tainted tory drink and be glad to by you one in return old chap.
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259:
'We have once again unfortunately bloggers in our midst like Miss Waldorf who appear to revel in the fact that some people are being unfairly referred.'
I have never revelled in the fact that people are being unfairly referred on here. You might have noticed that some of my own posts have also been moderated away. I accept that I may well have done wrong in these instances and don't bleat about the unfairness of The BBC. In many cases I haven't even seen your posts before they have disappeared so I have been unable to express my opinion on them. I do know that having been taught a lesson or two by The Moderators because I have overstepped the mark in terms of offensive remarks I now try to stick to the point and leave it to others to be personal either about other bloggers or about The P.M. and The Leader of The Opposition. If that's what floats some people's boats so be it but please don't accuse The BBC of bias when they happen to object to it. They are the ultimate arbiters of this entire forum because are the ones who have set it up. Posts from all sides of the political spectrum have been deleted. I think it's important to see what people have to say and then be able to disagree or agree with it if appropriate.
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234 Miss Waldorf, the last thing you wrote to me was
Be careful what you say in reply.
By now I think you will have realised that you should have listened to your own counsel.
You wrote a rather foolish post that won you no support and no friends as can be seen from your request below.
"I'm sure someone will back me up on these points."
No one did.
Perhaps you should learn a lesson and gain a little respect by following the example set by Ilicipolero in post 245 where he says as follows
"Earlier today I referred a post and to my regret I didn't have the courtesy of informing the poster immediately afterwards. I will not repeat this mistake."
I hope that this experience will teach you something but I fear not.
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grandantidote,
Quit worrying about this chat.
Mandy's back!
What's your view?
Will he be Brown's saviour?
Will I ever stop laughing at Brown's ability to shoot himself in the foot?
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Poor little old me. Noone supports me and now even grandy of all people wants to teach me some respect. I know my boyfriend Waldorf is itching to get back onto the forum. His hard drive crashed a few weeks ago. He's not as polite as I am and doesn't suffer fools gladly. It'll be good to see him back on the web waves.
Mandelson has made as many comebacks as Geoffrey Archer and will probably suffer the same fate. Why leave a cushy, well paid job as an EEC parliamentarian to join a sinking ship? Beats me.
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263miss waldorf You say
"I have never revelled in the fact that people are being unfairly referred on here"
A little bit of reveling going on here dont you think.
"You still don't get it do you grandy. You've had scores of posts removed. Those that I was quick enough to read before they were removed contained all kinds of offensive remarks aimed at those bloggers you disagree with. I can't really repeat them or I would have my post removed"
and yet you say
"In many cases I haven't even seen your posts before they have disappeared so I have been unable to express my opinion on them."
The ones you did see you made enough fuss about.
You said they
"contained all kinds of offensive remarks
I can't really repeat them or I would have my post removed. I'll try:
come on now [ big mouth,toad, and calling someone immature].now aren't they insulting and you couldn't bring your pretty little mouth to utter those abhorrant words. Bless you.
Can you say, I know it will be a struggle for you but can you say "a miserable little worm,"
well thats what your mister waldorf called me, but that was OK was it.
I suppose that had I said small mouth, not the expession you chose to use, frog,your chosen word, or obviously mature
that would have met with your approval.
Since you and the referrer are the only ones to find that offensive , then that tends to throw a lot of suspicion on you Nigella,
you see nigella its you that dont get it!
there's this
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
and then there's this,
. this comment has been referred to the moderaters
entirely different and the first is fair game and the second is not.
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Yawn Yawn Yawn... Thatcher, Blair, Cameron, Brown... what difference does a speech make?... no, scrap that... what difference does the name of a party make? They're all professional politicians who bring nothing new to the country... the system we are lumbered with has moved so far away from democracy, we don't get what we vote for, we get a bunch of suits who are more interested in riding the storms of international big business whilst worrying about how they are going to gain power next time... Prescott summed it up for me when he said (paraphrase) that the Labour party should stop fighting about leadership and get back to their core purpose - beating the conservatives... surely their core purpose should be steering and shaping this country for the good and security of it's inhabitants!? And don't try to tell me Cameron's Tories are any different!
It's not time to worry about the subtle and meaningless differences between Brown and Cameron (especially in something as trivial as a speech!) and start worrying about why our system of governance has become so corrupt and self-centered and what we are going to do about it!
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I would seem to have touched a raw nerve. Let's just agree to disagree on your blogging style and leave it at that. Let's talk politics from here on in!
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265 sceptic Max
Quit worrying about this chat
I'm not worrying as I explained earlier I love it.
Max I am sure that happens to Brown it wouldn't stop you laughing,
you know the old expression " you'd laugh if your elderly relative posterier caught some heat" I wonder if I'll get referred for that, but as some on here always says Hey Ho.
I had not heard that mandelson was back,
My view great news, mandy as you call him is a very clever and astute politician not many people outside of these blogs would deny that, I was disapointed to see him go to the EU and I am glad to see that he has returned to the labour fold. If thats what he's done.
Brown doesn't need a saviour he just has to keep doing the job and not listening to jibes and name calling as he has done up to now and when this recession comes to a end the electorate will realise that he was and is the man for the job, and Dave will still look like a chancer.
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And yet The Daily Mirror columnist on The BBC Daily Politics Show today who is a great supporter of Gordon Brown couldn't believe that he had made such a fundamental error in bringing Peter Mandelson back into the fold. He is known to be extremely divisive.
On Sky News the betting amongst commentators was that Gordon Brown would be ousted before Mandelson. We shall see.
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Back to basics; (with a rye chuckle)- one the left: Labour leading the country into big state cluncking fist.
In the right corner: Cameron teaching the misguided about the value of money. As Cameron said "sound money" its a very relevent lesson. And so what if Thatcher said the same in 1979- let us not question whether we like Maggie rather let us adopt as a Tory Party policies of her's which may still be deeply relevent- such as 'sound money'.
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270:
I've not been aware that Gordon Brown has been listening to jibes and name calling. Where is your evidence for a statement like that? The man is stubborn and arrogant to the nth degree. Even sticka and stones would fly off him like water off a duck's back.
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269 miss waldorf, if your referring to me then please put a post number in your post, if you are referring to me then you couldn't touch a raw nerve on me if you used a scalpel its not my blogging style thats in question my blogging has gained excellent support since your 234 post whereas you have recieved no support and some gentle condemnation, had you of been a man I think you would have had a much more torrid time,
In view of your rather unpleasant attitude I would prefer if we keep our distance, I dont mean avoid discussing politics but the air of friendlyness that once existed between us has now diminished.
I am glad to hear that Waldorf is coming back I had thought that perhaps he'd been ill I have asked after his wellbeing on two earlier occassions but to no avail.
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Apparently now that David Milliband has been discredited and the rest of The Cabinet have been exposed as little mice Gordon Brown needs a big hitter like Peter Mandelson to deflect attention away from himself. I wonder if it will work?
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As there appears to be no NR thread as yet on Sir Ian Blair's departure what are people's thoughts on the subject of his record?
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Yet another female commentator noted that Gordon Brown had undone all the good generated by his Conference speech in bringing back Mandelson. Not one person on any of The regular TV channels today considered it to be a good idea. I wonder what exactly his motives were in doing it?
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273:
What the heck are sticka? That should of course read 'sticks'.
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274:
Thank you for asking after Waldorf. In the past couple of weeks he has had a cataract operation and had a wisdom tooth removed. Having suffered a melanoma of the left eye last year he has to undergo six monthly blood tests for life to monitor possible metasteses. His next test is next week. He is looking forward to joining the fray on this forum but has promised to behave in terms of keeping his cool and will undertake to confine his comments to politics as opposed to personalities.
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273 miss waldorf , read it again
270
not listening to jibes and name calling as he has done up to now.
[ not listening] being the operative words.
263 you say
"I now try to stick to the point and leave it to others to be personal either about other bloggers or about The P.M. and The Leader of The Opposition."
now on 273 ignoring the typo's I get the same trouble myself.
"The man is stubborn and arrogant to the nth degree. Even sticka and stones would fly off him like water off a duck's back."
Didn't last long did it one hour fortyeight minutes,
Consistent for you I guess
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279:
Not that anyone will be interested but my guy has also had a triple bypass, a minor heart attack and had two stents fitted. He's still going strong however and enjoys life to the full!
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277 miss waldorf and you know that do you? you've been on here since the announcement and yet you;ve been able to watch all channels, clever girl
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278 miss waldorf
"What the heck are sticka? That should of course read 'sticks'."
Well I didnt want to say anything infact I tried to explain it away being a culprit myself but while were dicussing it whats the" nth degree"
Dont explain I think we get the gist.
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279 miss waldorf, As I keep saying posting on here is just a bit of fun, we all I suspect have real life crisis going on. so these blogs dont matter a damn they mean nothing to anybody else other than ourselves, I know that sometimes we tend to get inflated ego's including myself but when you turn your computer off were back in the real world. there are some exceptions on here I guess but most of us care about other people.I'm sorry to hear he has been ill but I had suspected as much, I hope that his next test is everything he could wish for.
But I cant see this happening.Below
"but has promised to behave in terms of keeping his cool and will undertake to confine his comments to politics as opposed to personalities"
Good luck to him I look forward to him having a go at me and criticising my Grammer.
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#279 misswaldorf
Hope the tests go well and Waldorf will be back here in top form. Good wishes to you both.
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281 miss waldorf
He's still going strong however and enjoys life to the full!
Glad to hear it .
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285 and 286:
Thank You 285. And grandy: In spite of ouir political differences on here you stilll appear to be a gentleman in the outside world. I will relay your good wishes to him. He looks forward to resuming friendly hostilities with you in the near future.
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I actually regret my unpleasant spats today. It negates positive feelings and is unproductive. Suffice to say that I sometimes get rather too easily wound up by throwaway comments. My main concerns right now are that my savings are safe, that Waldorf and myself stay healthy and that my soccer team continue to be successful. Nothing else really matters in the grand scheme of things. I've had two fantastic holidays to New York in May to celebrate Waldorf's 60th and a wonderful trip to Crete, Rhodes, Patmos and Samos during that dreadful wet August. Should keep us both going for at least a ew months. Question Time I have to say always works me up into a lather but what's the point? There are more important matters in this world to be concerned about than dull old politics.
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288 miss waldorf, Now your getting the message, relax, treat this as a pass time its like a game you get periods of ups and periods of down, remember to not criticise posters by their background only by their opinions their all voters and we are all free thank God to think what we like. the only time to put it as you say I bully people is when their posts talk down to me or others,
as Max sceptic says,
"Do you really want to rouse my ire?"
Well on occasion someone rouses my ire and I respond not with malice but with ridicule,not of there grammer I hasten to add that together with malice is totally unproductive.
Anyway as I have said before I think you are a good person at heart except for your politics [ half joke] but like all of us can get a little carried away at times, keep enjoying these blogs and treat it as it should be treated as a pass time, look after that man of yours thats what is important not this nonsense.
Thankyou for 287 and 287.
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266 miss waldorf,
Back to the trenches,
"Mandelson has made as many comebacks as Geoffrey Archer and will probably suffer the same fate"
The great difference being that Mandy has never been convicted of any wrong doing and proved to have been a little silly in the first instance but not criminal.
he was hounded by the media to resign.
In the second instance again hounded by the media and the Tories he resigned, so as not to bring the party into desrepute but was found to be completely innocent of all charges.
He was then once again re-elected by his constituency and went back to parliament and was offered a prestigious post in the
EU which he accepted and did exceptionally well.
To compare him with Geoffrey Archer who has never to my knowledge been elected.
Was chairman of the Conservative party .Lied and decieved his wife by having sex with a prostitute and failing to own up to it.
He then further perpetrated his incincerity by lying in court and was convicted of perjury, for which he was given a prison sentence.
This cunning fellow while in prison wrote a book from which on his release he made a lot of cash.
The Tories have a poor record of chairmen and vice presidents. I put this item forward to compare what the popular press and media see as sleaze with what really is sleaze.
Lord ascroft as he is now known was made a peer at the behest of William Hague to whom he had promised to become a British citizen thus paying Taxes in this country instead of belize.
Many years later we are still waiting for that to happen, Instead of his money coming into the country to benefit the people, he gives it to the Tory party to found their elections.
Now there you have sleaze on a grand scale dont you think?.
You might like to read below or you could look on the internet and take your choice of many items. just pop in his name and be enlightened.
And they accuse Labour of cash for peerages, what a joke.
Today on Daily Politics, David Cameron was again asked about Lord Ashcroft?s tax status ? is the party vice-president, the guru of the marginal seats campaign, registered to pay tax in this country? As ever, Cameron had no answer ? ?You?ll have to ask him about his own tax status,? he replied. He knows this reply looks shifty and evasive ? There is no denying that Lord Ashcroft?s tax status is a growing embarrassment. I suspect that Ashcroft feels untouchable, having seen off several media investigations into him. But it still looks dodgy, and as the election approaches there will be mounting questions as to why a man so crucial to Cameron?s operation may not be domiciled in Britain for tax purposes. It?s a problem that will not go away. (Fraser Nelson)
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Most of us agree on way or another the country is in a mess some the Labour Government's fault, some the fault of banks anxious for market share whatever the market, some to the price of oil and some just bad weather.
Whilst I have been a Tory for my adult life, I do belive in a time of "crisis" we need to pull together and have the best team, and whilst we can't have an election although I wish we could, we have to make do with the best team Brown can pull together.
Having met Mandelson at a couple of dinners were he was the guest speaker I belive he could be the best man in the Labour Party to move the situation forward. If he can carry the "old Labour" is another debate, but he can move things forward, and we do need action.
Maybe a little non political correctness and pushing could get us out of the mess. Maybe he is the man for the job ...till the election.
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