At least Gordon's smiling
As you ponder the half-a-trillion pound and counting - that's a five and 11 noughts, by the way - cost of the mother of all bank rescue plans, you may not be feeling that cheerful. Worry not.
The prime minister's maintaining the spirit of the trenches. On the evening after the long, long night before he delivered a speech to celebrate the publication of the Power List - a list of the most influential black men and women in the UK.
When someone's mobile phone interrupts his speech he joked "I don't know if another bank has fallen...", to guffaws of laughter before adding "you'll be pleased I'll not be giving financial information this evening".
Everyone at Westminster has noticed that he's grown in confidence and stature during this crisis. Could he even be enjoying it?
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I can't help but notice that we've adopted the American "billion" which is actually only a thousand million.
What's that about?
Now if you put 5 and 11 noughts in British money, it doesn't sound quite so depressing now does it?
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Of course he's enjoying it. All we little people are suffering. Isn't that what he lives for?
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He is having his Falklands moment. We will have to wait and see if the historic lifeline he threw actually works. If it doesn't then he will go down like the Belgrano.
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Sounds plausible: "Dour son of the Manse", just what we need in these chastened times he has helped inflict upon us.
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Of course he is enjoying himself, the problem is SO bad that none of the other parties can afford to give him the kicking he deserves as it is all hands to the pumps.
If the other parties turned on him for his role in this then the problem would just get worse as Labour pull ranks and defend themselves.
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At least someone's having a good time. He'll have plenty more time to enjoy himself once he calls that General Election!
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Why do the media say that this rescue plan is being done with "our money" The money that is being used may be taxpayers' money but once we have paid that tax it belongs to the Government not us. They use that money for a lot of things we may not agree with, wars, benefits, etc. but if they sit back now and do nothing and the banks collapse then we will all suffer, jobs will be lost and then there will be less money in the coffers.
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The package and base rate cuts do not resolve the fundamental problem in financial markets. the massive counterparty risk that exists in the system.
No-one knows who is on the other side of many deals and no-one knows if the other side can pay up. Sometimes the other side does not know if they can pay up either. This is what is keeping Libor higher than base rates.
Where is the plan to address the fundamental problem? Was that it? What about making all the under-the-counter transactions become over-the-counter and public?
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Of course he's enjoying it; the worse things get the happier he is; it's in his psychological make-up because he honestly believes he's the Messiah who's single-handedly saving the planet.
"I am your world leader now. Kneel before Zod" will be his next words I suspect.
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9 Now do you see what I mean when I said that at the beginning of each blog you get these one post wonders, I haven't read them yet as there awaiting moderation but I'll bet there ninety five per cent Tories,
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Oh lord half a trillion to make Gordon feel good.
Thats just made it 10 times more abominable.
I feel queasy
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3 flame patricia,
"If it doesn't then he will go down like the Belgrano."
That was another proud moment for the Tories wasn't it.
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BBC News crisis graphic
Who's going to determine when the arrow in crisis goes - a graphic artist or an economist?
Dump the arrow - bring back an "i"
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10 not far out lads especially if you discount my observation, but the big guns are beginning to emerge now, so of we go again.
Whoopee!
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Clearly you're not enjoying it, Nick.
It must pain you to see Brown eclipsing shallow man Cameron on the issue that really matters.
So can you tell us yet whether you'd be willing for work for Cameron if he became PM?
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#7 .. I wonder too why the news media keeps talking about the taxpayers money ... anything a government spends is taxpayers money. It doesn't have any of it's own ... on reflection, wouldn't it be amazing if the government announced that it was going to take money from shareholders, stockbrokers and bank executives to pay for the bailout ?
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I'm amazed the he can laugh. The markets are now substantially lower than when Labour came to power. We've all been made poorer by the incompetence of this man. Perhaps he'll be singing "Je ne regret rien..." in the shower tonight.
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It's interesting that during all this bad news the parliamentary standards office issued a statement that Balls/Cooper had complied with the spirit of the rules on parliamentary expenses. The rules need changing if they are so lax.
No wonder that politicians don't feel the pain of the taxpayers in the UK.
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No wonder Brown is smiling.
He's like the arsonist who's spent years running around starting fires and now someone wants him to come and help put them out.
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The really good thing for GB is that this is going to go on for some considerable time, probably well into 2010, when Britain will need the firm hand of experience on the tiller to see us through the difficult times.
Of course he's laughing and confident. Everyone is talking economics and nobody's talking politics.
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Interesting that with all this fuss about huge bonuses in the City no-one's mentioned footballers' exorbitant wages.
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Yes he is enjoying himself, he has found a way to conceal all of the problems that the country was due to face, even if this global problem had not materialised.
Remember when he bottled the election? Many thought then that he had missed the boat as the economy would only get worse. He knew that too but was too scared of losing the election.
But those UK problems are now masked behind the cloud of global problems.
What has he got to lose in his billion pound gamble?
He was going to lose his job anyway, now there is a chance, as he sees it, that he will "rescue" the country with his "experience". It might just save his job for him, and if the country loses billions - well it just makes it worse for the Tories when they get in.
When you can have a win/win bet there is only one way to improve on the situation - he's found it...
Use somebody else's money!
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#22 - power_to_the_ppl
Damned right! I am not having my hard earned tax wasted on the wages of Preston North End's inside right! Over my dead body.
Give it a banker, I say!
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"The arsonist who started fires"
Well....fairlyopenmind thats an unabated response.
Londons burning......was there a history lesson in that statement?
Its clear that Osborne and Hammond (the tories treasury machine) is in a state of numbness, nothing to offer!
There are more question to ask?
the pound will probably have to devalue.
The post offices, will become more relevant.
The russian economy, with all its fuel resources, will also be a central concern in the coming months and years.
If london is burning, then all the major cities in the world are also burning, Wow...Gordon must have struck one massive match.
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Dis nobody else spot the planted question about Afghanistan. I wonder if the recent report about the number of innocent civilians killed by an American bombig raid has anything to do with that.
We, like the Americans are guilty of killig innocent women and children. When your labour MP says how many young women are now in education just ask them how many women and children have we killed, note we, killed to get these children into school. Are any lives worth it.
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#19 skynine
Even more interesting is that the standards bloke said the general test of where the main home is located should still be where the MP spends most nights, and yet Balls / Coopers argument was that the non-London home was the main one because that's where they spend their weekends.
In other words for some unknown reason we won't bother applying the general test in the specific case of two of GBs closest allies.
Wonder why that is then?
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Did anybody notice how long Gordon took to read out the names of the dead in Afghanistan during PMQs. Why not read out the list of names of those we have killed. After all it is Afghanistan where the dead are being counted.
How much longer will this go on. What exactly is the purpose, when we know that we are talking to the insurgents, and the Talibhan.
I so think that Gordon may well be very intelligent. No problem there. However, I think that he is also pathetically small minded. Why do I say this. Because after the last question from David Cameron he made a facetious remark which had the labour back benchers rolling in the aisles. It demeaned Gordon, it actually made him look pathetic, whilst David Cameron was going along with the economic crisis being of national importance, which it is.
Gordon Brown looks more pathetic for his cheap shots, which may invigorate labour back benchers but which seriously demean the position which he holds. Take off the gloves and go for his jugular, he so deserves it. He is responsible for our deaths in Sfghanistan as much as Tony Blair was responsible for the deaths in Iraq. Gordon has the blood of these people on his hands, son of the mase, forget it.
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So the man we did not elect to be in charge is smiling at the end of 08/01/08
Please could you remind me what the ten physical attributes indicating the signs of on setting madness are?
I will forgive anything in the list except “forgetting the list”
When I type madness I am reminded of the inmate in the asylum pushing the wheel barrow on its rim, wheel in the air so that they could not put a load in it for him to push.
Well at this time in the morning after yesterday we all need to go to bed smiling trouble is there is not a lot to smile about.
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"I'm amazed the he can laugh. The markets are now substantially lower than when Labour came to power. We've all been made poorer by the incompetence of this man." (#17)
Actually the FTSE hit an all time high after labour came to power at around 6,900. After the dot com bubble it dropped substantially before bouncing back to around 6,700 last year.
Obviously it is currently far lower than that, but it is all snakes and ladders.
I find it odd that you see Brown as more complicit in this than, say, Richard Fuld (The CEO of Lehman Bros) or another faceless banker.
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14. grandantidote
10 not far out lads especially if you discount my observation, but the big guns are beginning to emerge now, so of we go again.
Whoopee!
Hey Ho, Once more to the trenches dear friend.
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Of course Broon is now smiling, he's got a big smokescreen to hide his incompetence.
It won't last, thankfully, and then we can ask how this government is going to finance the health, welfare and defence systems of the country.
Oh, and build more prisons, solve the terrorist problems, stop kids playing football in the streets, and hide all the christmas presents.
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#22
Too right power. It seems odd that the political establishment seem to have turned on people who actually create wealth for the nation when the money floating round sport in TV rights and wages dwarfs it in comparison. We live in a strange world indeed.
I for one am having another of those queasy moments after the picture Nick has just painted of GB enjoying himself while 99% of the population suffer. I don't think it's appropriate for him to be cracking jokes at this time when the economy is in free fall either.
Pass the bucket quick.
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Of course he's enjoying himself. He thinks he's going to single-handedly save the country and, in his deluded state, the British public will all tell him how wonderful he is and re-elect him next term.
He doesn't need to worry about whether his pension will see him through his old age, whether he will be able to afford his heating bill this winter, whether he will be able to pay his mortgage, or whether he will be out of work for a long period of time (I live in hope on that one).
He's not even on the same planet as the rest of us.
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Does the son of the manse still go to church I wonder? Ostensibly perhaps.
Could this whole financial exercise have been a huge feat of Social Engineering? Has it got anything to do with New World Order or Common Purpose I wonder?
What we can count on though is that the general public will now need to be resourceful, frugal and less greedy to say the least and Gordon will take more than a proprietorial interest in us. Perhaps?
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Dear Nick
Politics is a dirty game as you know, and i do not think Brown will be smiling for long
POLITICIANS have not tackled the root cause of the problem. Rogue traders and Bankers are still attacking the Bail out plan, especially Russian traders, whilst their stock makets remain closed to normal trading, to put this problem right there has to be a level playing field,and where markets are not accessable, there has to be question mark over the viability of the Bail out, after all Russia has Guaranteed Icelands economic fall from grace, but will not pay out for British investors.?
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Yeah, things have turned around for Gordon haven't they? His body language and whole demeanor has changed. He is, quite clearly, "luvin' it".
It's not that fair, politics wise, and you have to feel a little sorry for the wretched BTP.
I don't have to, though.
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@12 - re the Belgrano - it went a long way in winning the war so yes it was a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Or do I get to witter on about military neccessity, the damage a cruiser of that size could do to the fleet, how long it takes a ship to turn around, shallow shoals, keeping the Argentinian surface fleet cowering at base and teh fact that it was the remaining ships that left the crew to die
But oh no those poor innocent disabled kiddies on that pleasure boat never stood a chance. The infamy
Purlease give me strength.
As for Cheery Brown, well lets see how it all pans out shall we. I'm of the mind that its nowhere near as bad as some commentators make out, not looking at you Peston, oh no. So lets see what happens, especially with the Councils losing the money in the Icelandic bank crashes.
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He is smiling because he's keeping the red flag flying here....
What are a the socialist's views on this hitherto capitalist society?
Are the brakes on now and we will see an end to excess disposable income giving rise to binge drinking, drug taking, fraudulent benefits, foreign trips and holidays, excesses, designer clothes, throwaway culture ...list goes on. Could be no bad thing! Income, what income my son? Outcome more like.
It is the most phenomenal earthquake ever to hit and it's hit the whole world except, curiously, Africa.
Whilst it's been brewing he's kept us busy with recycling mania and so called Global Warming. GLOBAL WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!
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Either way, he's finished. If it's a success, it's Churchill and Atlee. If it's a failure, it's Hoover and FDR.
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I'm worried that all the politicians have lost the plot, and we have absolutely no chance of meaningful discussions if we get another election in this country.
The breathtaking amounts of money that Lucky Gordon is waving at the financial markets make a complete mockery of any attempt at financial prudence that any future government tries to adopt.
The good thing is that he and his minions won't be able to accuse the conservatives, or the lib dems for that matter, of not having properly costed spending plans.
If all the banks in all the world get nationalised, by whatever means, will each countries banks get consolidated? After all, with just one group of beneficial owners, us the tax-paying electorate, will there be any need for banks offering competitive services to obtain our business?
Oh, what am I thinking? They've always been screwing us, just different hands holding the screwdriver now.
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#25
"The post offices, will become more relevant."
Well, if the PO offers financial services with better "guarantees" than other institutions, they may attract more customers.
But this government is still intent on closing hundreds (thousands?) of offices and sub-offices. In many cases these will be in small communities, with no very close alternatives. Great news for the elderly and the transport-poor? No. Who could change things? The owners of this Private Limited Company - the Government. But instead of looking to build on potential opportunities, the branches are restricted to a narrow range of services. Daft.
BTW, it's obvious that the Wall Street bright sparks invented the obscure financial instruments that have changed the face of "money management". They should have been quietly taken aside and told to take their creative inventiveness elsewhere...
Can't/don't blame Brown and Co for that. The US authorities should have stepped in much earlier to chuck water on the fire.
My beef is that UK governments never checked that Directors and senior executives in UK finance houses actually understood the detail of what their staff were creating or dealing in.
Betcha that two-thirds had no real understanding of the true risks they were taking on. So I don't much like bailing them out.
Brown's creation - the FSA - doesn't seem to have stamped and shouted at the institutions they were supposed to oversee. Why not?
It wouldn't have prevented a general problem with "trustable credit" - but it may have limited the degree of exposure of institutions operating within the UK.
Isn't that all that any individual government can do?
Don't we expect them to do that?
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#40
What are the free-market Thatcherites views on the nationalisation of our banking system?
Shouldn't we have just let them fail instead of trying to buck the market?
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Brad @ 39
... "it went a long way in winning the war " ...
You call that lop sided piece of grandstanding by Thatcher a "war"?
Aw, sweet.
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"I find it odd that you see Brown as more complicit in this than, say, Richard Fuld (The CEO of Lehman Bros) or another faceless banker." #30
I place plenty of blame with the likes of Richard Fuld but it's the job of government to regulate markets. Let's not forget that Gordon Brown tore up the regulatory framework in 1997 and replaced it with his own tripartite arrangements. Further it's him that changed the taxation of dividends in pensions - pocketing £5bn of year in strealth taxes.
GB has been very happy to take credit when everything's going his way but all I hear from him at the moment is "it's not my fault... it's global blah, blah blah". Credit where it's due and blame where it's due. Plenty of blame for where we are falls onto Brown's sloping shoulders.
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Could Gordon Brown be smiling and cracking jokes because he is one of a few of people in the world who is actually in a position to do something about the world credit crisis?
I am able to read a few of the entries to this newlog again and I notice there are still contributors grumbling about the fact we didn't have a general election soon after Gordon Brown succeeded Tony Blair as leader of the Labour Party and therefore PM. I think it is more likely Gordon Brown is smiling and cracking jokes because at last his own party is behind him.
This is something which has been obviously lacking since the previous PM's wife threw that childish parting comment at him when she left Number 10. It is perhaps a relief for all of us that this PM has the political experience and maturity to be able to deal effectively (we hope) with this kind of crisis when it arises. I for one wanted reassurance in the current climate and its good to see most of the mudslinging seems to have stopped, albeit probably on a temporary basis.
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Gordon Brown was growing in confidence before this crisis hit and this just provided a platform to raise the bar. If the Prime Minister is anything like me he's probably relishing the sense of purpose and putting down some of the wannabes.
The Tory tactics have been to lower the tone and pepper him with a 1001 derogatory comments. This created a wall of black propaganda that rose to dominate folks minds but the Prime Minister is regaining the initiative.
You can see similar games played out in here over the past few days. People are confident when they have the upper hand and mob behind them but when faced with a few realities or caught on their own they're not so hard.
Some people might not get this but the Prime Minister is probably more concerned about the 'vision thing' and would prefer a more consensual approach in politics, but some folks can't leave the crack alone.
Personally, I'd recommend he has some business and social policies lined up as a follow through. If folks are focused and have a chance to contribute that should help reform the current atmosphere to something more civilised.
The Tories had their chance but Cameron blew it. So, I expect the Prime Minister will make it happen. The only choice the Tories have is to go out standing up or on the knees. The rest is wind.
All hail the King, baby!
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Beware of the smile of the tiger
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#49 my own
Forgot to add Tim after Tiger. Cheers!
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#12
What are you twittering on about?
The Belgrano and the Tories?
that was 26 years ago, you want to look at governmental military disgraces (which I don't bellive that particularly was a big one to be honest) you don't have to go that far back! Try 2003.
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It seems to have become quiet, so time for some reflective appreciation of what has happened in recent days.
There has been a certain amount of turmoil caused by a lack of credit being available amongst the banks of the world. This was because the number of banks has been shrinking, thereby reducing the amount of possible offerers of liquditiy, and the banks themselves suffering losses caused by writing down the value of their assets, which reduced the actual amount of liquiditiy that was available.
Furthermore, the banks all knew that the other banks were in the same situation as themselves, and so were reluctant to lend more money to others.
That problem has been solved at a stroke, with central banks offering to underwrite all the assets that these banks have, and being prepared to accept them as collateral at original face value, and not the marked down value.
It takes real skill as an economist and practical banker to perceive the benefit of doing this, committing vast volumes of future expenditure that this government, and any unlucky successive governments, might have wanted to expend on health and social services.
Our serene leader, living deep in his bunker, perceives the need for control to be exercised, preferably by him, since he is the only one with experience of the problem, and the underlying reason that it exists.
So, control is the requirement, which he now thinks he has, and avoidance of responsibility for the events that lead to this, which is apparent in all the outpourings from our leaders office, means that he can only see an upside, and a glorious day when he might win an election.
Our only hope is that the poor deluded fool will call it now, looking for a mandate to keep things as they are.
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The situation might just improve if the press could be more positive instead of concentrating on all the negatives. Maybe the BBC could take a lead in this!?
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#12 - Gradantidote wrote:
"If it doesn't then he will go down like the Belgrano."
That was another proud moment for the Tories wasn't it.
Well, yes it was. It removed a significant threat to our fleet and, more importantly, the decision was from a politician able to make hard decisions and take responsibility for the outcome.
Not something we see very often from Labour politicians and never from Gordon Brown.
If McBroon is happy at the moment it can only be a good thing. Perhaps the fool will find some confidence and develop the Balls to call an early General Election. Then we can get rid of him once and for all.
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Nick, can I now claim my free bottle of Champagne as being the ONLY blogger (and member of the Labour Party) who shouted it in here that:
Inflation was not the major concern of this Country and Gordon and Alastair along with the Bank of England were targetting, wrongly.
Inflation isn't and wasn't the concern, as dropping interest rates by 0.5% now shows.
I claimed it was STAGFLATION and I am now proved right.
Remember my name, Nick because I am now claiming that MANUFACTURING is our saviour.
You can send the champagne to the usual address (safe house) but please don't tell Gordon or Alastair where it is.
Thanks,
Gary
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@ 47 - newtactic
"It is perhaps a relief for all of us that this PM has the political experience and maturity to be able to deal effectively (we hope) with this kind of crisis when it arises"
- gordon brown's own words "this situation is unprecedented, never before have we faced such global financial conditions"
he cannot have both, he's spinning again.
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#48.
"Personally, I'd recommend he has some business and social policies lined up as a follow through".
Well, Charles, Peter Mandleson is now the MP in charge of Business, but I can't help feeling that a twice-failed politician (who borrowed an amount of money which was way above what his salary dictated he could afford) probably won't have the best interests of the country at heart.
....and what about all the local councils who invested into the Icelandic Bank? I wonder if the Government will be as diligent when it comes to bailing them out too.....or whether they will just remove the cap and allow them to increase our council tax to cover the shortfall. It goes without saying that we will all suffer whatever the outcome.
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#48 Charles_E_Hardwidge
If the Prime Minister is anything like me ...
we're all doomed
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Finally! ... something I'm pretty happy with. Only works if you're honest and I've tried to set a good example by being honest myself.
Revolves around 2 political values:
Freedom of Choice (FOC)
Equality of Opportunity (EOP)
and their impact on something real:
Overall Educational Standards (STAN)
Now unless you are totally apolitical (in which case you wouldn't be on here, would you?) you MUST be in one of the following 4 camps.
#1
EOP is always more important to me than FOC. Thus, when it comes to education, even if I knew the impact on STAN would be negative, I would still support the
abolition of private schools.
# 2
I'm not ideological either way. Both EOP and FOC are important to me although, as regards education, I would lean towards EOP as being the more important of the two. For me, whether I would support the abolition of private schools, depends very much on whether I think STAN would go up. I can see that it might but I would have to be convinced.
# 3
I'm not ideological either way. Both EOP and FOC are important to me although, as regards education, I would lean towards FOC as being the more important of the two. For me, whether I would support the abolition of private schools, depends very much on whether I think STAN would go up. I am very doubtful of that, I have to say.
# 4
FOC is always more important to me than EOP. Thus, when it comes to education, even if I knew the impact on STAN would be positive, I would still oppose the
abolition of private schools.
Where are you then? ...
#1 is Left Wing Extremist (like me)
#2 is Moderate Left
#3 is Moderate Right
#4 is Right Wing Extremist (like Carrots)
I would say, but without making out that I know you all better than you know yourselves, that we have on here a few #2s, several #3s, and an absolute ton of #4s.
And I wish I wasn't the only #1 but I rather fear that I am! ... I guess there can only be one #1 though, can't there?
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#7 #16
It is our money because the government hasn't got spare cash. It has to borrow (more) to pay for the bank rescue, which means they will have to raise taxes in future to pay for the interest on extra money they have borrowed. Presumably at some point they have to pay it back with our money too.
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Perhaps Gordon Brown has got the Nero syndrome and feels compelled to play his fiddle as the City burns around him!
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#43
I certainly hope the government do suspend
their plans to axe over 3000 post offices.
They are the corner stone for many in rural communities and do offer more services in terms of savings.
I think there was a short fall from the government in as much as they didn't recognise the urgent need to build more homes for rent over the last decade.
Young people are often forced into the mortgage trap through the lack of decent homes for rent.
There are also those, private land-lords, who charge outrages amounts for their properties.
So in general there is a very strong case,to point the finger of shame, that a labour government, has been some-what posted missing in helping those who need help the most.
When the life expectancy in the east end of Glasgow is less than the gaza strip, then it does begger belief that the 500Bn will do little to tackle that problem.
I do wish we were a society that caters for everyone, to take post offices away from needy communities is a digrace, to shore up the banks and peoples mortgages and then forget about the needy is not right.
Why didn't the government do the same kind of back up for the poorer communties in Britain.?????
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Of course Brown is enjoying it.The Renationaliztion of Britiain Project is payback time for the trade union dinosaurs that survived Thatcher and who now provide more than 90% of "New" Labour's funding.
There isn't much of a manufacturing base left to nationalize, and the foreign owned companies would cause complications in the utility sector, but the banks are a soft target.
Labour hasn't changed. Brown hasn't changed. The Blair project was just a smokescreen to con the electorate, and as con tricks go it was a pretty successful one.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Now that the government is taking stakes in Uk banks, its good to see that the Chancellor immediately starts acting like a banker.
Why on earth is it necessary for him to go the US to discuss something that was done yesterday? Couldn't he have a conference call? It's what they were invented for.
Is it time yet to start re-naming the banks as part of a re-branding exercise? Lloydstsbhbos could be Bank 1, RBS Bank 2, Barclays Bank 3, etc.
As I mentioned yesterday there are local authorities with funds in Icsesave that are outside the scope of any guarantee. Intirguingly it seems TfL has 40 million there.
Surely this is scandalous. These councils take public money, in the form of poll tax and business taxes, and are always needing to put these up since they run out of money. We should respond to next years council tax demand with a government guarantee of the value of the tax, and see if we can avoid being sent to jail.
I think I've hit everyone I was aiming at.
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#59
Your analysis of the mix of posters is probably right, and that, in itself, is no bad thing. Happliy, in case you hadn't suspected it, I sit very nicely in group 4.
However, your analysis of the education debate doesn't seem to give any weight to the fact that private education stops the STAN from flatlining.
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60. Duncan
Yes it's our money but anybody who comes here with seven children from Afghanistan gets given a mansion in Ealing and the council pays out £12,000 a month for them.
No wonder the decent Brits. are leaving these shores....
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The biggest stumbling black has been a closed minded business sector and greedy City. Fighting this is been very difficult as the merest whiff of change had the CBI and their Tory pals thumping the tub.
The Tories have tried pulling the trick of "owning" the solution to the problem they and their CBI friends created, but they have no policy or credibility in this area.
Now the broken fundamentals have been flushed out into the open, folks have a choice to go down with the ship, or make for the shore. Mandelson's appearance on the scene is a raft folks might find useful.
Welcome to the party, pal!
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59
Nice Idea Saga, however, do you have children?
Then things change, look at Diane Abbott, she would have been a #1 right up to the point when she was deciding on a school for her children.
Not blaming her really I'd do the same if I could afford it. Freedom of choice is so important. A thousand years of political development has pushed us in this direction.
Equality for all does not exist, show me a communist country of which this is the dictum where there is equality.
Certainly not China.
Mafia Run Russia?
or North Korea where young children live on starving Rats.
The lesson learned is power corrupts, and absoulte power corrupts absoultely.
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#65
Any military man would tell you that racing after the bling and broadcasting silliness would be the quickest way to dig a hole.
Can anyone explain what the hell the above statement means? my enigma decoder is busted,
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Ah, it's beginning to liven up.
The initial premise of this blog was about whether Lucky Gordon is enjoying this, and it seems the concensus thinks he is. Whether it will give him future pleasure might still be open to doubt, but not on might part. It certainly won't, because he will have to wrestle with the huge financial burden that he has placed on his own government and future governments, and he has offered prudence as a hostage to fortune in future economic debates in the UK.
Am I the only person who wonders if Lucky has ever given up the keys to the treasury to Darling? He seems to continue to take the lead, but only when he detects there might be some credit going, but as soon as there are tricky questions Darling gets pushed to the front.
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the PM can smile all he wants it will make him just as unreliable.
it seems the american bail out of there banking system will need at least ten times what they have pumped in already and thus the knock on will be our governments rescue plan will need a lot more taxpayers money pumped into it. thus sadly i can see tax rates increasing to cover the deficit, or will yet more spending be cut in health, military,and policing etc.
forgive me for seeming dumb but why didnt the government just nationalise these banks etc prior to wasting multi million pounds of taxpayers money just as there predicessors did in 1940's rather than pay the debts that had occured, the debt this problem will rack up may well greater and thus do more damage to us all.
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Gordon Brown has grown in confidence and stature as Prime Minister. Let's just hope the British people have got the sense to realise it.
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But does anyone really think that Cameron would be a better man to have at the helm at this time... really?
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Investments are plummeting, people are worried about their savings & Brown thinks Bank failures are funny!
Go now.
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No doubt he will claim credit for sorting out the mess which he has condoned and watch happen over the last 11 years.
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I have two comments to make:
1. How did the local authority treasurers forget about BCCI? Why were the investment guidelines not amended to prevent this debacle? In order to earn an extra 1/2 of 1 per cent in a whole year, these highly paid local civil servants have risked 100% of the cash, and LOST.
2. Whatever your politics, the smug griping about bailing out overpaid fatcats is very sad. If you want to throw the baby out with the bath water, go ahead, but as anyone can now see, if the financial system grinds to a halt, then you can't sell your house, because no buyer can get a mortgage, you can't borrow money to pay for your college education, you can't get an overdraft to cover the odd shortfall, and the holiday company/airline that you booked your holiday with has gone bust. Your employer is closing down because they can't refinance, and now you are looking for a job. And I could list a thousand other ways that this will ruin our lives if allowed to continue. Don't tar everyone with the same brush. In every walk of life there are people who are paid beyond their contribution or ability. However I did not hear a suggestion that all football managers should be fired because one or two were paid for expectations that were never delivered.
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Seaumus Milne writes an interesting essay on the current state of play but is slightly missing the point. After creating calm the the most pressing issue is forming policies and attitudes that create a better alternative to the broken fundamentals.
Focusing on raising R&D and increasing liquidity for new business and battered communities will help tilt commerce and society into a more purposeful and self-sustaining model of success. This is a step beyond Keynes and Freedman.
Traditional politicians, media, and the electorate don't get it yet. Standing up on your own two feet, society, and realising the self is part of the system are not mutually exclusive. But, this integral view has a good chance of developing.
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Well I'm glad at least Gordon is amused because I certainly am not.
Aside from the fact that my close friends are now steadily being laid off, probably me next, the amount of national debt Gordon Clown has racked up is now absolutely eye-watering.
Public debt last year stood at £515 billion (38.6% GDP), now to that has been added:
Northern Rock - £87 billion
Bradford and Bingley - £40-50 billion
Yesterday's bail-out - £50 billion
plus £250 billion in bank loan guarantees
Day to day borrowing - £30 billion
Off-balance sheet debt PFI - £100 Billion
Public sector pensions - £800billion
not forgetting the 10p tax 2.7 billion giveaway plus the probable retraction on VED costing goodness knows how much.
I hope every one likes much higher taxes because that's what is going to have to come next.
Perhaps Brown is happy because the crisis has saved his neck and seen off the rebels in his own ranks - nothing to do with helping the rest of us. At least he will still have a comfortable pension after 2010 when he's out of a job.
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Yeah Nick he's grown in confidence because he's just been on a spending binge with our money. Love to do that myself, you know, just get somebody's money and throw it where it's going to do the most damage (subsidising rogue banks and bankers). It must be quite exhilarating. The trouble is that after the binge comes the hangover, but Gordon's still smiling because he's determined to share that with the rest of us.
No mention of course of an investigation or committee to look into the activity of these rogue bankers. Not one iota of humiliation being thrown by New Labour at these financial scroungers. I heard this morning Evan talking to a couple of chirpy chaps from the city on The Today Programme. Loved it when they said it was about time the government intervened to sort the mess out. What got me is that they said it without any sense of irony, they actually meant it. like they and their associates simply had the right to expect the taxpayer to subsidise their gambling. Not a shred of remorse, not one apology for driving us all into ever greater debt and misery, no, just 'about time they did something'. They make me sick, Evan was fawning over them, sad really because he's pretty hot on these issues.
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#68 .. lamepatricia ... as an Afghani with 7 children living in a rent-free mansion in Ealing, I can tell you that you are quite wrong ... I only got £11,999 in benefits last month .. I expect it's the credit crunch kicking in.Looks like we'll all have to tighten our belts ..
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#69
Mr Hardwedge, your use of Mandelson as an analogy for raft to use when escaping a sinking ship is highly amusing.
He, of course, is no novice when it comes to sinking, so that experience would be highly desirable.
I am curious about whether Lucky Gordon is aware about how much political damage has been done to him, and which will become obvious once the dust settles.
His claim that "now is no time for novices" doesn't exactly square with his declaration that "these are unprecednted circumstances", indictaing that he is in fact a novitiate in these matters.
Similarly he has abandoned any claims to acting prudently in financial matters, and is not apparently having cabinet decisions to back up all the actions he has taken.
It will be interesting to see what the son of the manse's moral compass will tell him to do when he finds he has no electoral clothes to wear, so to speak.
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balhamu wrote:
#40
What are the free-market Thatcherites views on the nationalisation of our banking system?
Shouldn't we have just let them fail instead of trying to buck the market?
Are the government really trying to "buck" the market though?
We have to hope that the government actually expect the price of the banks shares to increase - in which case what they have done is a nice bit of business (buying shares in a company which we expect to rise in price).
I would consider that "playing" the market rather then bucking it.
Bucking the market would be more like trying to grow a buisness when the market is on the downturn.
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Planning his strategies and fighting from the trenches, Gordon is growing in confidence. Never count him out! A brilliant financial strategist, Gordon was at the helm at the Treasury for over a decade and knows the ills of the global economy. The prescriptions he is following at this dire period will further fortify him from the Opposition on-slaught and will test his real mettle. Of course this is a recession which is not easy to manage and calls for cool heads. Gordon may be on the ropes but will come out fighting valiantly!
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He's smiling because Labour can whitewash and say everything is a global issue and push real politics back, shouting 'gordon is the experienced man for the job' seems to be working
truth is, neither of the two main parties have any real solution, Labour are just reacting to situations and I somehow doubt the tories would make it noticeably worse/better - so forget using the economy and stick to political decisions when it comes to supporting a party
I for one remember ID cards, 42 days, and a cannabis upgrade, Gordon, and you're failing to prove anything with the economy no matter how loud your cronies shout that you are - you're a lucky man most people don't think like that
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Listen up Robinson. Instead of bluffing about why dont you get a real job. As I suggested to your business ego man why dont you and him try living on the minimum wage for a year to see how you handle. It will take the arrogance out of you. How much do you earn? Is your mortgage safe or do you own your own house? I presume the latter.
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To stay on topic "At least Gordon's smiling" and his extremely tasteless remark.
Charitable view. The guy is a social ninny with no idea how to behave in public.
Alternative view. He sees this crisis, partly of his own making, as his potential salvation.
If the latter send me a bucket!
At the risk of incurring the wrath of the more regular posters, I despair that many contributors have moved off topic, when we should be discussing the mentality of a PM who can crack such a joke at such a time.
Doesn't he get it?
My fear is that he does, and he sees this as his only chance of political survival. If I'm right then that says a lot about the man, and what it says doesn't look very good from where I'm standing.
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sagamix wrote:
Brad @ 39
... "it went a long way in winning the war " ...
You call that lop sided piece of grandstanding by Thatcher a "war"?
Aw, sweet.
I admit that my memories of the Falklands is pretty flakey as I was young at the time, but didn't the Argentines invade?
If the resulting war turned out to be lop sided that is hardly Thatcher's fault. What was her other choice? Telling Argentina they could have the Falklands because she wasn't going to fight an inferior enemy?
It wasn't Thatcher who was grand standing but the Argentines - they were trying to cover up problems at home by winning back the Falkland Islands. They invaded (against the wishes of the inhabitants) and the UK liberated the islands.
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Gordon Brown can laugh, he can probably afford to pay his heating bills.
Maybe he should try to show more compasion and respect to those people who have falling pensions and savings, or the thousands upon thousands of people who are losing their jobs.
It looks like the only way to get this crowd of Gravy Train robbers out of power is to inhialate them at the next UK election.
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Sagamix
I think your analysis is flawed. The ONLY reason people have a problem with private schools is that it is seen as unfair that some people can buy a better education for their children than those less well off can afford.
The left immediately jumps on the unfairness of money making your life better.
What should be the main concern is raising the standards of the bog standard comprehensives to the point where private schools no longer provide a better education, which then removes the unfairness perceived by those who can't afford them.
Therefore I see myself as a #5 in your list.
#5 I would support the abolition of private schools when the standards of education in the state sector had risen enough to match their results.
Cheers
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He's clueless. Printing £500billion is going to send sterling through the floor.
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I'm disappointed that an earlier comment was taken down as it made a pertinant point on the general situtation.
Nevertheless, Steve Richards and Hamish McRae offer similar comment: proper form and attitude are more useful than speed and hysterics in creating sound outcomes.
The Prime Minister has played this game well so it's no surprise that he's feeling pleased. He has a lot to be pleased about and folks have a lot to be grateful for.
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75 The hand of history:
What were you on last night?
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my concern in all this is, where are the great thinkers of our generation? It has taken Buffett's move on Goldmans for some jobsworth to say 'hey, that's not a bad idea that, we could do that here' and Buffetts agenda is obviously not as wide-ranging as the Chancellor's should be. Let's hope the dream team at 10 & 11 downing street aren't on a par with those in Iceland.
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Of course Brown is smiling, he's been saved for the time being. To see him smirking through PMQ and AD's statement yesterday though just sums him up. The economy is on the brink yet he can hardly keep a straight face.
He sees himself as the saviour of the economy and we'll all be so grateful at the next election. Wrong. You don't put the arsonist in charge of putting the fire out. He put petrol on the fire over the last 11 years and now we'll be paying for it for generations to come. He's overseen a house price explosion and massive government and consumer debt. The chickens are coming home to roost.
Amazing where all this money has suddenly come from yet it took him over a year to compensate the 10p tax losers.
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#59
Would agree to an extent, but you neglect the social benefits and labour-market dividend (over and above qualifications) of being privately educated in terms of future social networks, not being led astray, 'cultural skills' in terms of knowing how to act in an upper-middle class way (of course there are also costs in terms of not understanding what life is like for most people, not being exposed to a diverse range of opinions, arrogance etc).
#67
I think there is some evidence that those who attend private school perform a little better than if they had gone to a state school.
I think, at GCSE level, the value-added scores suggest that someone educated in the average private school achieve approximately 1 GCSE grade higher in each of their subjects sat than they would have done attending the average state school (this is according to Civitas, I can't find a decent academic source for this research yet).
Whether this is a big gap or not is not a question that can be objectively answered. But it does not seem massive to me.
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31 Warning 123 , Yes Xmas not too far away Ill have to get my boots cleaned up. good to see you back.
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The PM has good reason to smile. If mimickry is flattery, then he and Darling should be flattered; and Cameron shattered. Their plan is looking as if it is to be copied in Europe and the USA. It might not be perfect (accountability of execs; taxpayer shareholder rebound benefits eg) but it is impressive work and DC knows it. I am a DC man and not a PM man,but I am switching for now. The Tories have been behind the curve and an idea-free zone this last two weeks. They are empty coats and the "novice" jib fits. This is a worry. Their lack of experience in the work place has really shown through. The Brasenoise JCR and Oxford Union and PR is no training for these big moments. They need to go back to the drawing board-and quickly.
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"sagamix wrote:
Finally! ... something I'm pretty happy with. Only works if you're honest and I've tried to set a good example by being honest myself.
Revolves around 2 political values:
Freedom of Choice (FOC)
Equality of Opportunity (EOP)
Personally I am:
#5 Thinks that FOC is the most important thing, but realises that you can not have FOC without EOP. Also realises that true FOC or EOP is impossible and that we must make the best of what choices are available to us.
To clarify - how can you have a free choice if you don't have the opportunity to choose all the options?
And true EOP would just lead to lower standards (as you admitted) after all I might want to be a Premier League footballer and earn millions but I don't have the talent. Therefore I don't have the Opportunity so I don't have the Choice.
As to your suggestion that #1 is extreme left wing - wouldn't that suggest that slavery is left wing? After all the slaves all have EOP they just don't have any FOC.
And a Utopian world with total freedom would actually be extreme right wing (so too would be anarchy) although ironically a facist government would not be (which many consider to be extreme right wing wouldn't)
I know your suggestions were simplistic, but then so is the whole right-wing/left-wing spectrum. Far more detailed is the two dimensional grid which balances right/left wing thinking with a vertical scale balancing libertarian/totaliarian thinkings.
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sagamix wrote:
Finally! ... something I'm pretty happy with. Only works if you're honest and I've tried to set a good example by being honest myself.
Revolves around 2 political values:
Freedom of Choice (FOC)
Equality of Opportunity (EOP)
Personally I am:
#5 Thinks that FOC is the most important thing, but realises that you can not have FOC without EOP. Also realises that true FOC or EOP is impossible and that we must make the best of what choices are available to us.
To clarify - how can you have a free choice if you don't have the opportunity to choose all the options?
And true EOP would just lead to lower standards (as you admitted) after all I might want to be a Premier League footballer and earn millions but I don't have the talent. Therefore I don't have the Opportunity so I don't have the Choice.
As to your suggestion that #1 is extreme left wing - wouldn't that suggest that slavery is left wing? After all the slaves all have EOP they just don't have any FOC.
And a Utopian world with total freedom would actually be extreme right wing (so too would be anarchy) although ironically a facist government would not be (which many consider to be extreme right wing wouldn't)
I know your suggestions were simplistic, but then so is the whole right-wing/left-wing spectrum. Far more detailed is the two dimensional grid which balances right/left wing thinking with a vertical scale balancing libertarian/totaliarian thinkings.
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Oh come on - this is just a LULL - America will still dictate what happens here... Their foreclosures are still gathering pace... and it is affecting Main Street more and more... Read this.... http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/08/chicago.evictions/index.html
The Dow is heading for less than 5000... FTSE 1000 -
Why did Paulson say there would be more bank failures...? because he knows how bad it really is going to get....
This time next week GB will not be so happy or smug...
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There's a good BBC report on the Prime Minister's view. It highlights a focus on sound management and a proper measure of reward, the good consensus from more mature opposition politicians, and the fact that the taxpayer may turn a coin from this deal when all the shouting has died down.
London's financiers did lose the plot and harmed both business and society in the process, but by taking the high ground Gordon Brown has pulled a similar stroke to Warren Buffett's saving Goldman Sacks. The Flash Harry's laugh when they think they're on top but a sounder approach wins out in the end.
It would be easy to go a bit hyperbolic and get some payback but that's giving in to the beast within, and I don't think Gordon's like that. He just wants things to work and folks to play fair, and by taking a sound and considerate position he can help impress a better attitude on the country.
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re NR's article.
I think that the financial situation would be a lot better if Gordon Brown frowned more.
He should only pull miserable facial expression, maybe even cry a few times, sigh a bit more, maybe pull some of his hair out or kick a few doors around or punch the wall. Maybe through his mobile phone at the floor a bit.
How can he respond to this crisis if he is not depressed and despondent?
That seems to be the gist of it.
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Gordon might well be enjoying his crisis and he may well turn out to be the man of the moment and the hero of the hour. Look back though to Winston Churchill--who was hailed a hero but rewarded by the boot when he turned to the country for electoral support at the end of the war in 1945
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The local authorities do have to provide pensions for their employees. To provide these pensions they have to invest some money. It would be unwise to invest that money in equities at the moment, so the 'safe' option would have been to invest in high-interest savings accounts, which they did.
They have no doubt paid financial consultants to advise them on their investment strategies. These financial 'experts' being the same ones that advised ordinary punters to take out endowment mortgages (whatever happened them those?) and throw money at the stock market.
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So Gordons at it again.
This is the man who, after his coronation last year, promised an end to spin and all its connotations.
Yesterday in PMQ's he had the gall to deride Cameron for pointing out that bankers pay had to be reined in as part of the package, citing that this made Cameron not a "team player" in the united front for tackling financial upheaval.
Today he says he's very angry about the level of payment to bankers.
To be charitable, it may be that he's suffering from Alzheimers and doesn't remember what he said yesterday. Maybe he doesn't remember yesterday at all. Bless.
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I must confess to being somewhat ambivalent towards The Government right now. On the one hand I am grateful that Brown and Darling saw fit to protect the deposits of UK savers in icesave because my sister would otherwise have lost £100,000 of my Parent's Inheritance and her deceased husband's life insurance policy pay out. On the other the false smile and smug grin as he taunted The Opposition for being 'economically illiterate' beggars belief. The two ministers nodding in unison behind him like those nodding dogs that some people have hanging up by their windscreen mirror as he was speaking in PMQs was also excruciating. The present economic crisis is a lifeline for him. No wonder he continues to smile like a cheshire cat throughout this whole crisis. He isn't touched by it personally and believes that it can't do him much harm politically.
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BROWN MAKES LIGHT OF BANK WORRIES
BROWN AND DARLING SAY, THIS IS NOT THE TIME TO DISCUSS WHO AND WHAT IS TO BLAME FOR THE CREDIT CRUNCH.
AFTER THEY ARE RE-ELECTED WHEN ITS TOO LATE TO TAKE THE BLAME - THEY WILL, OF COURSE, SAY IT WAS NOT THEIR FAULT, OTHERWISE THEY WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN RE-ELECTED.
27 OCTOBER 1986. THAT WAS "BIG BANG" DAY - THE DAY MARGARET THATCHER'S GOVERNMENT DEREGULATED THE FINANCIAL MARKETS AND AGAIN IN 1997 THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM WAS FURTHER DEREGULATED BY GORDON BROWN. UP UNTIL 1997, THE BANK OF ENGLAND CONTROLLED THE BANKING SYSTEM. MR BROWN DECIDED THAT HE DIDN’T LIKE THAT ANYMORE. SO HE INTRODUCED A SYSTEM WERE WE HAD, THE FINANCIAL SERVICES AUTHORITY, THE TREASURY, AND THE BANK OF ENGLAND, CARVING UP THE JOB AMONGST THEM. JUST ONE BIG PROBLEM – WHEN THERE WAS A CRISIS, APPARENTLY NOBODY KNEW WHO WAS IN CHARGE. THE EFFECT OF ALL THIS – THE SYSTEM UNREGULATED.
WHAT DOES BROWN REALLY MEAN WHEN HE USES BUZZ WORDS THAT SPIN SUCH AS: CONFIDENCE STABILITY. LIQUIDITY; SECURITY; SECURITISATION; RECAPITALISATION; NATIONALISATION; GLOBAL AND WHAT EVER IT TAKES – WELL, THEY SIMPLY MEAN, THAT YOU! THE PEASANT TAXPAYER WILL PAY WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO FILL THE BOTTOMLESS PIT TO GUARANTEE THE BAIL OUT OF UNSCRUPULOUS GREEDY FAT CAT BANKERS EVERY TIME THEY CAUSE A FINANCIAL CRISIS.
DON’T LET MR BROWN SPIN YOU THE YARN, IT ALL STARTED IN USA. YES, BUT THE BUBBLE BURST IN AMERICA. THE CREDIT CRUNCH IN BRITAIN STARTED WITH DEREGULATION OF OUR OWN BANKING SYSTEM. BY CHANGING THE SYSTEM IN 1997 IT ALLOWED COLLATERAL, BACKED WITH MORTGAGES TO BE TAKEN OUT OF THE PROTECTION AND CONTROL OF BRITISH REGULATION AND JURISDICTION. BANKS WERE ABLE TO OPERATE AS INSTITUTIONS IN VOLATILE UNREGULATED SUBPRIME IN THE USA.
BROWN AS CHANCELLOR CLAIMS THAT HE IS NO NOVICE - BUT IN EFFECT, HE HANDED HIS CONTROL AUTHORITY AND THE STABILITY OF OUR ECONOMY TO UNSCRUPULOUS GREEDY BANKERS IN THE USA A FOREIGN COUNTRY.
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40 Flame Patricia
You failed to mention fraudulent Tax Evasion and illegal claims for expenses, not by parliament but by hundreds of thousands of business men.
As for
"Whilst it's been brewing he's kept us busy with recycling mania and so called Global Warming. GLOBAL WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!"
You have no interest in the people of the future then.
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This is correct but not everyone sees this, understands it, or has the maturity to embrace it.
I'd like to think that after the events of the past few weeks that this will become the dominant view.
As a more mature approach takes root it will help create a space to turn around the broken fundamentals.
Oh, happy day.
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"WunnyBabbit wrote:
The local authorities do have to provide pensions for their employees. To provide these pensions they have to invest some money. It would be unwise to invest that money in equities at the moment, so the 'safe' option would have been to invest in high-interest savings accounts, which they did.
They have no doubt paid financial consultants to advise them"
It seems that they were investing in the icelandic banks on the basis of the government:
"Local government correspondent John Andrew said there was growing anger among councils, which say they followed Treasury advice by investing surplus money in a way that would deliver the highest return for taxpayers.
He said the councils had been told by the government that the Icelandic banks had been given a "double A" rating."
This is from the following article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7660438.stm
If this is true then it is the government's fault and not the councils themselves - it is nice to see that the government didn't think to suggest British banks - I am sure that they could have used the 1 billion pounds that is said to have been lost.
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Gordo's smiling because he knows that in the not too distant future and before he calls the election, he'll instigate retribution against the so called "fat cats".
It will be very public but probably run by the FSA due to the requirement for "political independance".
The one thing for sure is that it will be a vote winner. The so called "fat cats" will be seen to be hit hard (however hard they are actually hit, if at all, is irrelevant) and Joe Public will love it.
Then, when the public is revelling in the retribution process, up pops the election.
The start of it will be more and more information on the so called "fat cats" renumeration packages entering the media.
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#109
Nice try. On the assumption that these are pension funds that are being invested in high interest accounts, we could find a lot of distressed pensioners queueing up for money.
Traditionally the government has not been very forthcoming with regard to people whose pensions invested with private companies, as opposed to public scetor employees, and it will be interesting to see the outcome.
Should these pension investments get beneficial treatment from the government, in their current role of restoring order to financial chaos, then why wouldn't the people who used to be employed by Dexion, to name but one, and whose pensions have been lost and STILL not compensated by the government, expect to be paid out. After all it only takes a few hundred millions, which the government has always said it doesn't have, but Bingo, they've suddenly found 500 billion, or so.
Anybody who needs money should apply to HMG right now.
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Sorry, forgot to add this in previous posts.
Would somebody please advise Lucky NOT to smile. He looks like some predatory animal who's about to bite your arm off.
Oh, he has, 500 billion times.
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51 the bulldog breed,
Another of your so called bulldog breed brought the subject up with this rather facetious remark..Below,
At 9:45pm on 08 Oct 2008, flamepatricia wrote:
He is having his Falklands moment. We will have to wait and see if the historic lifeline he threw actually works. If it doesn't then he will go down like the Belgrano.
Perhaps you should delve a little deeper into the reason for Falklands war, in order to form a unbiased opinion.
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Socialists hereabouts are missing the point - this is not nationalisation, it is subsidy to private companies.
To a freemaketeer this is worse than nationalisation. To the socialist is should also be seen as the worst of all worlds.
Of course to the Brown fan club - it will be promoted as decisive - whereas it is in fact just the action at the end of a substantial dithering phase.
The cut in interest rates is actually a second subsidy to the banks -- the Bank of England (i.e. taxpayer) loans to the banks are now getting a lower rate of return.
While inflation is on its way up, and those on fixed incomes take a hit.
Go on brownies - cheer all you like - it is just another 10p tax moment.
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Are there any Policemen / women, Nurses, Teachers, Local Authority, Forces staff and other public sector workers reading this?
YOU WERE REFUSED A PAY RISE THIS YEAR SO THE BANKERS COULD RUN OFF WITH YOUR MONEY!
The police weren't even allowed to strike to protest. Is that a fair an just society?
Do not enforce the law of the Bourgoisie.
WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!
The time has come Comrades......pick up a copy of the Communist manifesto and all will be explained.
The only country who isn't panicking is China. They have been protected by their socialist principles, free trade and free markets represent the freedom of the Bourgoisie - not the worker.
They may have started on the road to capitalism - but they will be turning around as we speak.
1917 was too early, and required too much force. This time it will be an spontaneous uprising prompted by the lack of food and the loss of everyone's material posessions.
1917 was isolated - but this time it's global. There will be no intefering from external Bourgoisie nations.
Even if it doesn't happen this time - there will be a next time. It is inevitable, the Bourgoisie will create the revolutionairy proletariate.
The fall of capitalism has begun. Even the most ardent capitalist supporters have admitted that "The credit markets will never be the same again".
The system does not work - it was proven in 1929 and it took 10 years of hardship to get out of it.
Are you all prepared to live with poverty and unemployment until 2018?
Don't think public sector jobs are safe either. Where do you think the Local government will find the cash they have lost in iceland?
.....from service and job cuts.
The government just blew all the national savings which could have helped us through the recession.
It's all over folks - bar the shouting.
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misswaldorf, you have to seperate presentation from substance. What you see on TV and read in the papers is a show with a zillion egos playing to "win". What matters is action and kindness over the long haul.
You see the same game played in this blog as folks try to "set the agenda" and "acquire popularity", but how much is froth and how much is reality? This is where taking a step back and developing awareness and self-awareness is useful.
I haven't named names or given examples so I can get a bit more focus on this and give ego less to hold on to. Technique is neutral and universal. What matters is how we (you, me, us) perform relative to that standard.
You can't buck reality, etcetera.
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The infrastructure must continue!
so affordable homes will need a 150%
interest rate loan to build.
Now! those affordable homes will become unaffordable to rent.
I do care about some people becoming filthy rich, maybe Mr Mandelson can do a u-turn on that satement and address the need for a distribution of wealth.
Remember Farepac, they took peoples savings,mostly very low income savings,
then done a runner with those savings.
2years on and still no, parliament debate on that issue.
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100 - you are being very general with regards to private schools, you seem to think they are full of the children of aristocrats and ceo's sitting around drinking tea before heading off to the conservative party
this may be true at a handful of them (eton, harrow etc) but many are simply schools - I went to one and believe me it was easy to be led astray at private school, and there are no classes on how to behave upper/middle class - my school was simply a "fee-paying comp" in essex as my teachers called it, full of common essex boys and girls whose parents could afford the few thousand quid (or in my case could get government assistance until labour abolished it when they came to power) because the state schools were so dire - there were no networks where I could get in with a friend who inherited their own company or anything of the like
I did get a relatively good education, but there are plenty of considerably better state schools out there - the real crime is that in many areas the quality of state schools is shocking and private is the only decent option, even if people can't really afford it
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55
The champagne you want to celebrate with is that
1 bottle from France at £40 or
6 bottles at £7 from Australia
If you were celebrating with a whisky or G&T I could understand your point.
There is no point in manufaturing something no one wants to buy. In the 80's we moved from being a net importer to net exporter of cars.
Unfortunately it was foreign companies using British designers and factories that were doing the exporting.
In this country we chose to drive BMW's instead of Jaguars.
Should a govt nationalise Jaguar to keep open a factory producing goods that the British aren't buying in sufficient quantities to make viable.
It didn't work in the Seventies, what makes you think it will work now?
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54 Youngerap. I am assuming that you quite young I dont mean that as a insult merely as a observation regarding your knowledge of the Falklands war.
As someone who I believe is not in pocession of the full facts you make a reasonable post although obviously I dont agree with you.
Then you spoil it all by making silly remarks about GB not taking decisions, he's being constanly accused by your bretheren on these blogs of making bad decisions, so either he is making decisions good or bad or he's not making decisions, you can't have it both ways.
And then you spoil it completely by resorting to childish name calling, you've been reading to many ppls idiotic posts.
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It is interesting to note that a number of Local Councils had put taxpayers money into Icelandic Banks.
According to Alastair Darling, these Councils are 'informed investors' and therefore seem to fall outside of the FSCS.
At the root of this is those 'ratings' agencies such as Moodys and Fitch, who gave these banks AAA ratings.
It is way past time that these agencies become strictly regulated.
They have created havoc around the world with their unsound methods of rating banks and other businesses.
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59. sagamix
Cant I just be a freedomist and put FOC above all else, regardless of acceptable losses.
Go on make a little box just for me.
The trouble EOP in your brave new world is that it translates into making it equally as hard for all, not equally as easy.
The state has no right to do that.
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#120 grandantidote
Seems that your suggestion of looking deeper into the cause of the Falklands war goes beyond Galtieri and his pals invading South Georgia.
Possibly its the fault of the tectonic plate movments that have caused the islands to be where they are?
Possibly it was the dinosaurs, although there is no fossilised evidence of dinosaur residence on the islands, although there are a few on this blog.
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Normally I never comment on Nick's blogs as bissed or otherwise. I think unwittingly on this occasion an off-the cuff comment/question at the end "could he even be enjoying this" is now being taken on here as a "matter of fact"
The PM is enjoying ther crisis !!! Yeah right.
Cue the ouitrage of all right wing bloggers clinging to this statement to justify their bile!
Well it gives the opportunity to ignore "the Brown plan" which in the absence of anything better, including the "Paulson Plan", likely to be emulated by most major economies.
But hey what does that matter compared to reports of the PM smiling.
Talk about shallow.
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I'm not sure I've understood Peston perfectly but as I read it this salvage has been funded by government bonds sold to the large funds (Pension funds etc) who won't lend to the banks atm.
So this gets given to the banks anyway, the only difference being that the taxpayer guarantees the money and reaps the rewards of increased lending - whether that is direct or indirect in keeping their business or jobs.
Hats off to Gordon he's made a good decision (only took him 11 years to get one right)
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#120
"Perhaps you should delve a little deeper into the reason for the Falklands war, in order to form a unbiased opinion"
You mean like your unbiased opinions?
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He's the only one who is!
He thinks he's pulled the wool over everyone's eyes.
Bring the country to its knees then con everyone into thinking he's the only one to put it right.
Or perhaps it's just the media feeding his ego.
It's like being in kindergarten.
Well make the most of his smiley face because it will only last until the next storm breaks.
Thinking about it personally I prefer the scowl. The smile is unnerving to say the least.
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#122 Tawkinsenz
You were doing so well initially.
Yes, let's think back to those heady days earlier this year when all the government big guns were banging on about the need to hold down public sector pay in an attempt to defeat inflationary pressures in the economy. BTW, those pressures were stoked up by Lucky in his last days as Chancellor, but let's move on.
Remember our plucky Home Secretary using sleight of hand to reduce the police pay award to fit this arbitrary government target.
Remember also, at that stage the "official" government inflation rate was under 3 percent, but the real rate to those of us that need to buy food, fuel for our cars, heating and electricity for our homes, council tax, and travel to work, was, and still is, rising at a rate that is a multiple of this Governments target, unrealisitic as it is.
Now, suddenly, Lucky has tripped over a fat wallet in the street and can use the contents to bail out the financial markets.
So we don't need a revolution, our current government is revolting enough thank you.
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Post 106:
"He (Gordon Brown) just wants things to work and folks to play fair, and by taking a sound and considerate position he can help impress a better attitude on the country"
Presumably smirking about the financial crisis helps improve our attitude. This from the man who raided our pensions for 5 billion a year, concealed the abolition of the 10p tax rate to win short-term headlines, and consistently and over many years misrepresents the amount of national debt (100 billion of PFI liabilities). He, and his supporters, might impress us better by admitting Labour's economic mismanagement was one (though not the only) factor in the present crisis.
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Gordon's levity flowed either from gallows humour or - more likely - the fact that he is more relishing the fact that the rug has been pulled out from under the Tories than he is fearful or dismayed or by the crisis.
Based on the posture of his baying backbenchers at PMQ, not to mention his own cheap shot in his response to Cameron's final questions/painful attempt at non-partisanship, I think latter is much nore feasible.
Understandable perhaps, However, maybe he should be telling himself - this is no time for smugness or gracelessness.
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#137 only jocking
You are so right, this is not a time for him to be smug or graceless, except that its engrained in his character.
You would think his moral compass would be of assistance to him, but its probably a bit like Cap'n Jack Sparrows compass in Piartes of the Caribbean, and doesn't actually have a point.
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#125
Tarquin - That isn't what I was suggesting, and I can understand parents reasons for wanting to send their children to a private school, particularly if they e.g. lived in an area with weak schools.
Especially as the media and Government hype up the importance of the school you go to rather than the more important parental attitude to education (e.g. emphasising its importance, supporting children with school work, purchasing books and encouraging reading them, supporting school discipline).
Just saying that the social factors are important in many parents choosing a private school. Particularly important at the elite schools (Eton, Harrow, Westminster etc) that many of those at the top of their professions and part of the 'ruling class' attend.
I wouldn't suggest that private schools should be abolished. More that Government should work to minimise the impact of the social advantages of attending these schools.
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I think we should all be happy that Brown is PM at the moment. In this global crisis he is the only British politician of the stature and experience necessary to lead us through it.
This is a crisis affecting all western economies, a crisis which has very little to do with the current government's policies. Brown has announced a bold policy, which will be well worth the money if it works.
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Moderaters, why on earth would anyone refer my views on the Falklands war and the sinking of the Belgrano, I have expressed these views before on a number of occasions and they were never moderated. did you bother to read the post before you threw the switch or are you just a slave to anyone who thinks its a good way to win a argument, what annoys me about this is that the angel of death TAG is constantly on a daily basis running down the activities of our troops who are serving the country right now and yet you find fit to remove my post referring to a war that happened 26 years ago, and has in all probability been referred by the person that used the sinking as a joke. as I have said before and had much support , if the person that referred this post should own up to it put your point of view foreward but you wont show your true colours but I strongly suspect there Blue.Sadly.
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No idea why GB is smiling unless he has buried bad news (e.g. the future cost to prudent people who live within their means) Profiteering energy companies who have strangled people's ability to service their debts are still getting away with it. House and pensions values are in free fall. The EU also needs to explain what happened to the grain mountains that were designed to bring stability to food prices.. These and many factors contributed to the present crisis. Improving banking liquidity is one part of a much wider picture of failure and a long way still to go despite GB's "Job Done" smile.
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It looks like the BBC techies have fixed the ampersand problem, and it can now be typed direct -
&
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The clever and kind child in school often gets mocked by the dumb kids but behind the scenes they're desperately trying to understand the "Brown Plan" and desperate to wring the credit from it. But, Gordon Brown has delivered the results in the open so this has been made more difficult for them.
The Tories are grinding their teeth while wearing plastic smiles nailed to their faces by orders of Central Office. They can't rubbish the plan or upset anyone too much but when the heat does down they'll be howling and gnashing as their ego demands. If they could win while ruining everyone else in the process they'd try but can't obviously get away with it..
Teresa May was doing her best to look mature but her desire for power was flashing all over the place like a beacon on a moonless night. This is the thing the Tories don't get: they're as transparent as glass and are consumed by their own ambition. The recession cluestick doesn't appear to have fully worked for them but more time in opposition may do the trick.
Reality is the best teacher, etcetera.
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Tuga @ 67
... "Happily, in case you hadn't suspected it, I sit very nicely in group 4" ...
Your honesty does you credit. Many here could take a leaf.
... "However, your analysis of the education debate doesn't seem to give any weight to the fact that private education stops the STAN from flatlining" ...
That's because that's not a fact, it's the opinion of a self confessed right wing extremist. My opinion is that removing the private option would lead to a big increase in standards.
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He probably thinks he's going to be thanked for his wisdom in handling the crisis.
I think he's going to be doing well not to get lynched if it emerges the big problem was oversight not greedy bankers.
On that point I have not heard anybody calling for a public inquiry?
If not, why not?
If we have put half a trillion on what is a better prospect than a donkey in the Grand National then you ask questions.
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Notting-hill-hammer
It may have been worth your money, but it certainly wasn't worth mine. The Banks will want to hold on to as much of their (our) money for as long as possible, and anybody who thinks this will help Joe Public get a loan/mortgage in the next 6 months or so is seriously deluded.
As I've said before, this really isn't the end, it's only just beginning.
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I am not particularly happy with Brown as PM as I would prefer an English person leading an English Government, which will surely happen one day.
Nevertheless, on this occasion, Brown happens to be the right person in the right place at the right time.
HMG have come up with a very good plan, which may well be copied by other countries.
They have made the safety of retail savers deposits a 'totemic' political issue, which, in the round, is extremely commendable.
In effect, savers in this country with the big financial institutions, no matter how much they have deposited, can be assured that the Government will ensure that that amount is returned.
I believe that, overall, financial stability will now return to this land.
No wonder Brown is smiling, his political capital, along with Darlings, has just increased significantly.
PS. If the noise-to-signal ratio of this blog increases much more, then there will not be much point in posting here in the future.
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The good news is ; Darling is off to the USA. The bad news is; he didn't take Brown with him and he's coming back.
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Bulldog @ 70
... "Equality for all does not exist" ...
You're right, of course it doesn't. But it's an aspiration worth working towards ... equality of opportunity I mean, not of outcome.
Isn't that what civilisation means? ... the striving for a better world?
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Your comment was a thread hijack and in danger of creating a rolling argument that would totally derail this topic.
Maybe it's just me but, I think, if you kept at least one foot in the topic and made a positive case you'd be more succcessful.
You don't have to get sucked into a fight by propoganda or the knee-jerk negativity around here.
If I can quote Mandelson: "P-O-W-E-R".
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155
Saga,
It's a nice dream, but the problem is the trough nosers.
Take Bob Crow
Communist with all the trimmings
Gue Guevara poster on office wall - CHECK
Dog call Fidel - CHECK
Nearly 1 million a year salary - WHOAH! hang on comrade are you really worth that while those you are supposed to represent are on a picket line?
The greed of Blair and Prescott, (not saying many tories are in the same boat) bears testiment.
You break the threshold and turn into the thing you hate, cause you don't want anyone taking it away from you.
Sad but there it is.
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at #106 - chuck
The difference between Buffet and Goldman Sachs and our Government and our banks is that Buffet has the cash to invest.
Gordon Brown is borrowing £500Billion to invest.
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if you want a good pension go and work for Abbey or one of the big surviving banks. It's like going on a ferry immediately after the Zeebrugge disaster, or buying beef after BSE. Safest and best bet after a crisis is the hair of the dog.
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158. TheBulldogBreed wrote:
Whoooo hold on...
Bob Crow earns 1 Million a year
Is that true?
Please substantiate.
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Sagamix - you're not Emma Soames are you?
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Grawth @ 93
... "I see myself as a #5 in your list. I would support the abolition of private schools when the standards of education in the state sector had risen enough to match their results" ...
That's a bit of a cop out. What if the very presence of the private sector means it can never happen?
Tell you what ... IF you believed that abolishing private schools would lead (in short order) to a big increase in the overall standard - please just make that assumption, for the sake of the argument, even though you might be very dubious ... well, in that case, would you support the abolition of private schools?
I think that's a fair "Yes" or "No" question, Grawth.
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156:
You're playing with fire my friend. Watch the sparks fly any time now.
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141. grandantidote
Thats public sector thinking for you.
You caused offence because someone was offended.
You need 10hrs equality and diversity education.
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161
It was mentioned to him on Any Questions just over a month ago and he confirmed it.
:)
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#150
OK Mr Saga, it's my opinion vs your opinion, but I suspect that if you removed all the results of the private schools from the various stats that we get about education results, the only objective benchmark that we have to judge on, there would be a marked downward shift in the outcome.
Or are you suggesting nationalising them, and bringing them into the state system?
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Bulldog @ 158
So we drop the idea of a better world because of Bob Crow?
Oh alright then.
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Good comment, but lack of focus and self-control took over here months ago. Unless Nick or moderation apply a little sound governance, or folks get with the programme, it won't change.
Failed economies and empty forums are nothing new, and the same fundamentals apply. You'd think folks would have a clue by now but history from pretty much everywhere tells the same story.
The wild west economy had to end sometime. Gordon took charge and, perhaps, the BBC can follow by getting a clue like the Washington Post. "Getting attention" is no different to "making money".
Quality does matter.
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148 Charles_E_Hardwidge
This is the thing the Tories don't get: they're as transparent as glass and are consumed by their own ambition.
Certainly not something one could ever accuse GB of.
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#157
It wasn't me who referred your post to the moderators. See my previous response.
Wonder who did?
Didn't seem to be anything unreasonable to me. Is somebody on this blog being precious?
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93. Grawth wrote:
I would support the abolition of private schools when the standards of education in the state sector had risen enough to match their results.
Grawth you donk
Why would you want to limit freedom and personal choice if there is no benefit to it.
Can you imagine just how complacent the state would get if people had no choice but to hand their kids for ..... re-education.
Pull yourself together man, youre just pandering to these darn communists.
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Whatever you do.......... do not try an expose the extent of the truth behind Brown and Darling's failure and liability with respect the current economic crisis....
.... otherwise you will get refered to the moderators - as I did at #35 above.
Hi Derek's.......... I know the truth!!!!
Election now.
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148 wrote:
'The clever and kind child in school often gets mocked by the dumb kids but behind the scenes they're desperately trying to understand the "Brown Plan" and desperate to wring the credit from it. But, Gordon Brown has delivered the results in the open so this has been made more difficult for them.'
If you seriously believe that Gordon Brown has achieved any significant results up to date then you're a bigger fool than I gave you credit for. We're in it for the long haul. When the dust has slightly settled and the crisis has somewhat eased the record of The Government as perceived by The Media and The Opposition will hit the fan faster than the speed of light.
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161
Sorry my mistake,
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
I am sure we would ALL smile with or at Gordon if he dressed up as Euphegenia Doubtfire, pole vaulted across the room shouting "help is on the way dear" then proceeded to give a heimlich manoevre to Darling Alastair.
He certainly has the accent and the wig would be an improvement.
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Gordon Brown got his money from the same place Warren Buffett did, and both Gordon Brown's and Warren Buffett's reputations are underwriting that. Plus, a big chunk of the 500 billion is loan guarantees for the borrower not the banks.
PS. Folks should check their facts before trying to cut something down and accumulate some reputation capital. It's egotistical short-cuts like this that created the financial crisis. It doesn't work, just in case folks haven't noticed.
PPS. This crisis wasn't just an issue for the finance industry - there's plenty of lessons for politicians, business, and regular folks if they're paying attention. Trying to resurrect the old game while the body is cooling isn't very bright. Embrace the living.
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Tuga @ 167
... "I suspect that if you removed all the results of the private schools from the various stats that we get about education results, the only objective benchmark that we have to judge on, there would be a marked downward shift in the outcome" ...
Correct. You buy an advantage by going private. That's the point and the problem. That's where we came in!
I can see you didn't go private.
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161 Carrots
This blog is so full of dodgy facts and figures I didn't think one more would be noticed.
168 Saga
The world would be a better place without Bob Crow, as I said I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, but it isn't gong to happen, anymore than a Christian/Muslim/Hindu etc (Buddist Charles GOD HELP US) dream of religious unity will happen.
Thats life.
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166. TheBulldogBreed
Oh thats bloody fantastic, ROFL ROFL ROFL.
There you go equailty in action from the socialists.
How does he get away with that sagemix
Before you start limiting my personal freedom, I suggest you start with your own kind and pull their noses from the trough.
I million a year ....... fantastic.
ROFL
Socialism in action, equality for all, but some are just a little bit more equal than others. Eh?
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Come on Derek's.........
Why don't we together make a list of all the ways Gordon has made the current economic cricis worse and harder to escape.
Chief Draper can't have liked my posting at #35 which in one single post spelt out Labours' impact on the current economic crisis. Which is why it has been targeted for an extra long stay in 'moderation'.
Derek's - would it be easier dealing with the truth in small bite sized chunks, rather than in one single posting where the scale of Labour's calamity is too obvious?
Why don't I start us off?
1. The £500Bn is just to buy confidence. It would have been far cheaper for the tax payer if Brown and Darling hadn't spent months dithering in the bunker and were able to inspire confidence - through something we call 'leadership'
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Bulldog
Can I see evidence of this... are you sure?
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Ooh, I see that the various councils involvement in banking at Iceland is growing.
Its up to 600 million now, and not many councils are not involved (sorry twisted syntax).
Seems their financial adviser might have been the treasury.......
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Carrots @ 129
... "Can't I just be a freedomist and put FOC above all else, regardless of acceptable losses. Go on make a little box just for me" ...
Course you can! ... but #4 (Right Wing Extremist Category) "always puts freedom of choice above equality of opportunity" as per the definition so you're captured fine there, I'd say.
Also a free market in organs for transplant, the right to bear arms, all that sort of stuff, yes?
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Mark @ 91
... "If the resulting war turned out to be lop sided that is hardly Thatcher's fault. What was her other choice?" ...
Diplomacy perhaps?
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#179
Saga, whether I had a private education or not is not the issue. Whether a private education is better than a public education is not the issue.
The issue is choice. Some choices cost money, such as choosing an bunch of incompetents to run the country. Personally I didn't make that choice, and am having to live with the consequences.
However, you and a lot of other people had the choice, and have elected to pay the price. Are you feeling better for it? Honestly?
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Balham @ 100
... "Would agree to an extent, but you neglect the social benefits and labour-market dividend (over and above qualifications) of being privately educated in terms of future social networks, not being led astray, 'cultural skills' in terms of knowing how to act in an upper-middle class way" ...
Yes we'd struggle without that, I see your point.
Congrats on getting the much sought after Century Post ... hope you got it fair and square rather than using the old boy network!
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T'uga
I wonder if those Councils could take legal action against the Treasury? If we were mis-sold a mortgage or pension, the FSA had practices in place to deal with copmpanies who gave erroneous information.
Just a thought.
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Mark @ 103
... "#5 I think that FOC is the most important thing, but realise that you can not have FOC without EOP" ...
No need for a #5 Mark, that is pure 24 carat number ONE.
You probably hate the description Left Wing Extremist, so I am pleased to annoint you under the preferred handle of CLEAR THINKING PROGRESSIVE.
A signed copy of "We Hate Rich People" is winging over to you as we speak.
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186. sagamix
Read my last post on 42 days is dead, in reply to yours.
I will give up FOC if the benefit to society is great enough.
So quite happy not to be able to carry a gun or buy a kidney.
Your abolish private schools argument has some weight to it, just no where near enough.
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sagamix / carrots
OK, let me explain.
Firstly, sagamix, I cannot possibly conceive of any way that the abolition of private schools would lead to an immediate boost in the standards of all other education, but just for the sake of argument if I DID strongly believe that to be the case, and the rise in standards to all schools to the levels attained by the private schools, then my answer to your question would be a straight yes.
Hope that works for you.
Now carrots, my reasoning works like this. Fee paying schools only exist on the premise that they provide a better education for their students. If this is no longer the case, if all schools provide at least that level of education, then I see no reason why any parent would continue to pay for what they can get free elsewhere. In those circumstances I believe that fee paying schools would effectively go out of business, so they would be abolished by circumstances.
Perhaps it would have been better to say that I believed that private schools would cease to exist when state schools produced equal or better results.
By the way, what's a donk? I've been called many things in my time, but never a donk. I'm intrigued.
In both cases, my main motivation is that all children should do the best that they can in their education. Neither the school they are in nor the teachers who are there should be a limiting factor. Whilst it is, then fee paying schools are here to stay.
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Both Britain and the BBC are in a hole as they've slumped down the quality curve. Folks can get a clue and turn things around but as with most things they don't learn until they hit rock bottom. Sometimes, not even then. The worst addict will continue even when death is a real danger.
Business, media, and popular culture are in bad shape, and it makes me embarassed to live here. Plus, media output like 'Little Britain' is just exporting a bad brand identity abroad and sketches like Harry Enfield's Philiphino maid aren't winning friends and influencing people.
"You can't change the world but can change yourself" is a key saying of Buddhism. It's pretty simple but folks make it complicated. "Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment: chop wood, carry water." Mostly, this is a personal thing. It's difficult to say more than that.
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Tarquin @ 125
Fair points. Good to hear from the front line, as it were.
And would you support the abolition of private schools if you were convinced it would lead to an overall increase in educational standrads?
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Waldorf @ 111
Your sister is fortunate on the Iceland scenario ... and I am relieved on her behalf!
You know that the Darling really bent the rules there, don't you?
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Sagamix
Can I introduce you to Squealer
Think you might click
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#189 Shelling
I'd absolutely love to see it. Problem is, they'd probably hide behind some little known clause in the regs (there are loads of them), and oil their way out.
So then they'd have to nationalize lawyers - oh no need for that, most of them are in the government.....
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More sagamix stuff :-)
So we're back to 'You buy an advantage by going private. That's the point and the problem. That's where we came in!'
And again I say why focus on being grumpy with private schools because they do it better. Why not be grumpy with the state system until it improves?
On the subject of organ transplant (just coz it's there) for the life of me I will never understand why we have to opt IN to the system instead of opting OUT. Presumed consent would save so many lives each year that the logic is inescapable.
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186
Military Juntas, don't usually recognise diplomacy...
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Mr Saga,
1 - is it fair that training to be a doctor, for example, takes longer than training to be a plumber?
2 - would it be fair to expect that the rewards for being a plumber should be equal to those of being a doctor?
as an equal opportunity specialist do you have any consistent answers to those 2 questions?
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#183
Not sure how to get RMT General Secretary pay figures (can't seem to find on their website).
However, a Google search of "How much is Bob Crow paid" 4th result gives a Guardian article from 2004 that states:
"Bob Crow is paid £63,000 a year. He does not have a driving license and uses public transport daily rather than a chaffeur"
Not the best source. Maybe Bulldog can do better?
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Any Doctor gaming the system would get hammered into the ground. By comparison, the Data Protection Act clearly stipulates that companies MUST get informed consent BEFORE using a customers data for marketing purposes.
Most companies have a wrong headed idea about what the law says or try to con their way around the law. And, no. The tiny tick boxes for opting out and legalese buried in fine print at the bottom of a 10 page contract don't count as informed consent.
When you try to put business right on this they'll try to slap you down or divert it into the customer services black hole. It's stuff like this that I'm hoping Gordon Brown will start getting on top of now he has the upper hand.
(Note to Labour: If Labour get this wrong I'll be knocking on the door of number 10 and calling for Gordon Brown to be chucked into a deep hole and tarmacked over, along with everyone else.)
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Read this....
"and as long as I am Chancellor I will never ask you to abandon fiscal responsibility, never to set aside economic discipline, never to abandon long term reform for quick fixes, never to succumb to Tory short termism."
That was GB in September 2003...
also he said - "don't ever let people tell you this happened because we were lucky, it happened because we are Labour"...
Well - now we know - its becasue they are Labour... !!!
Full speech here... > http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/sep/29/labourconference.labour1
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@198
Why should anyone have a right over my body or parts of it when I'm dead anymore than when i am alive?
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202
From the RMT he gets about 100 Grand
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sagamix wrote:
Mark @ 91
... "If the resulting war turned out to be lop sided that is hardly Thatcher's fault. What was her other choice?" ...
Diplomacy perhaps?
And say what? "Go home or we'll send you a nasty letter?"
The problem with diplomacy is that both sides need to move to meet in the middle, it is give and take. Argentina wouldn't have invaded if they were going to pick up and go as soon as the UK government challenged them on it.
If I broke into your home and was sat on your sofa watching your TV you could chat to me all you want but I am not going to leave till I am either forced or you pay me to go away.
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Why would Labour really want to win the next election? The economic climate isn't great now and if we do hit recession things are going to get a lot tougher.
Perhaps Brown should learn the lesson of Major. Better to lose by a small margin in 2010 than risk electoral wilderness in 2015. Imagine how unpopular a Cameron Government (or Brown Government) would be in say 2011 when taxes rise, public services are cut, unemployment figures continue to rise, Government borrowing is at an all time high, the Olympics turn into another 'British' fiasco, etc.
2010 might actually see a break in the current long party in Government cycle as well, which would be a bonus.
Gordon may be smiling now - but would he still be doing so in 2015? A week is a long-time in politics, seven years would be a lifetime.
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Carrots @ 191
... "Read my last post on 42 days is dead, in reply to yours" ...
I have now read it (and replied).
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Grawth @ 198
... "Presumed consent would save so many lives each year that the logic is inescapable" ...
Yes, I think only proper fruitcakes don't agree with you about that.
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I don't always agree with Bob crow's opinions or like his attitude, but jealousy and spite some folks show isn't great. And, no. I don't have issues with financiars who do a good job and get appropriate pay.
I hate squabbles over this sort of stuff cuz it's so pointless.
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@210
Re my 205
Are you backhandedly calling me a fruitcake?
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Carrots @ 196
Squealer, the worst pig of them all ... do you mind!
One of my favourite books as a teenager, that was. Some of his others are better though ... RTWP, for example.
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211
Not Jealousy, more disgust with hypocrisy,
I can lilve with the things I've done in the past, Not sure about disgusting Bob.
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Kettle @ 212
... "Are you backhandedly calling me a fruitcake?" ...
No, I don't have a category for that. I'm sticking with Right Wing Extremist or Evil Reactionary (whichever you like best).
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#156 - Charles_E_Hardwidge
That does not give you the right to censor the poster and that, in effect, is what you do when your refer to the moderators.
By the way, when you quote from other peoples' posts, would you please give the post number like the rest os so that we can refer back? Thank you.
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#59
There is no such thing as STAN, there are lots of individual children and parents who want the best they can possible have.
It is never acceptible to require parents to sacrifice the quality of education of their child for the (possible) benefit of another child. (Although you can feel free to aks them if you feel lucky).
I DESPISE left wing politicians who send their children to private schools.
But the reason I DESPISE them is not for their use of private schools, I despise them for PRETENDING that left wing politics works, and imposing its consequences on others.
I despised my crappy, comprehensive state education - I hoped things would be better and good enough for my own kids - but they aren't.
State education is so bad, that even having paid for it, I won't use it - and resent being forced to subside it.
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Mark @ 207
... "If I broke into your home and was sat on your sofa watching your TV you could chat to me all you want but I am not going to leave till I am either forced or you pay me to go away" ...
Oh really? ... what if I grab the remote and put Antiques Roadshow on?
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So is Bob Crow on a million a year or is he on something like a hundred grand?
I want to know the truth.
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#198 - Grawth
"Presumed consent would save so many lives each year that the logic is inescapable".
AMEN - SPREAD THE WORD!
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Pa ha ha ha
Who refered my tirade to the moderaters, Walter "Grandarchichoke" the Softy?
Please sir he mention the Falklands too and laboured on the truth!
Hmmmm I but you had lots of drawing pins on your chair.
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219
100 Grand, honest, doesn't make him any less a champagne socialist though.
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@215
Both will do.
I do like so to be put in a box in others minds, it leads to them underestimating me
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Tuga @ 201
re your questions below:
1 - is it fair that training to be a doctor, for example, takes longer than training to be a plumber?
2 - would it be fair to expect that the rewards for being a plumber should be equal to those of being a doctor?
... I go YES and NO.
Remember that our little spat has been about equality of OPPORTUNITY not of OUTCOME. I'm not saying everyone should be paid the same, regardless of what they do.
Funnily enough, a hardcore free marketeer would not say NO to your second question. They would argue that, if plumbers are in shorter supply than doctors, then it is right and proper that they are paid more than doctors.
Right Carrots?
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You need to weigh "freedom of speech" versus "abuse of the system". I'm not going to be judgemental or point fingers but folks may wish to reflect on that as financiers are having to reflect on the economic crisis.
Reading some of the media, I note, some folks have acknowledged this moment of stability but are trying to go back to smoking their crack pipe instead of getting on with it and shutting up.
I have nothing more to add, and this topic appears to have run its course. Have a nice day.
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@ 222
100 grand seems pretty low for the leader of a major union. It's about the same as the tea lady at an investment bank.
So you were lying before then? ... you know, about the million?
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"sagamix wrote:
Mark @ 207
... "If I broke into your home and was sat on your sofa watching your TV you could chat to me all you want but I am not going to leave till I am either forced or you pay me to go away" ...
Oh really? ... what if I grab the remote and put Antiques Roadshow on?"
I might watch it for a bit before going into the kitchen to make myself a sarnie.
Still the point stands, diplomacy involves either the promise of gifts or the threat of action - and eventually the promise/threat needs to be followed up.
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"sagamix wrote:
You probably hate the description Left Wing Extremist, so I am pleased to annoint you under the preferred handle of CLEAR THINKING PROGRESSIVE."
I consider myself to be a slightly left wing libertarian.
I believe everybody has the rights to live their life. I believe in small government (more of a right wing thing) and a simple legal system.
I believe that we should live in a meritocracy rather then a society where you are more likely to suceed if your parents are rich/powerful. However, I feel that taxes going to help people who are unwilling to work is unfair.
I don't have a problem with companies like Tesco making billions in profit as long as it is not at the expensive of their customers or suppliers.
So you see it is not easy to label me on the left/right wing scale easily.
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"sagamix wrote:
You probably hate the description Left Wing Extremist, so I am pleased to annoint you under the preferred handle of CLEAR THINKING PROGRESSIVE."
I consider myself to be a slightly left wing libertarian.
I believe everybody has the rights to live their life. I believe in small government (more of a right wing thing) and a simple legal system.
I believe that we should live in a meritocracy rather then a society where you are more likely to suceed if your parents are rich/powerful. However, I feel that taxes going to help people who are unwilling to work is unfair.
So you see it is not easy to label me on the left/right wing scale easily.
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It was mistake which I addmitted to straight away,
If you want to call it a lie, then call it a lie.
God knows we have suffered enought mistakes over the last few years.
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@224
You of course are correct if plumbers are scarcer and more in demand then doctors it is fair to say they should be paid more. This would lead to more people desiring to train as plumbers which would naturally then decrease the salary.
You will note how pay in IT has tumbled since these annoying "train for a career in IT and earn a better future" ads have been on TV. you will also note that the standard of IT provision in companies has dropped in line with this occurance.
train monkeys employ them pay peanuts its great.
Then those of us that are any good at the job take early retirement and sell our services back to the dummys that are left as consultants. Its a magical system.
I am pleased to note that concealed in the post was a shift to the right. Admitting that it should be Equality of Opportunity not Outcome that should be the goal. Can you now pass that on to the current government who are all about equality of outcome
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The Independent has a good comment on how the banking sector will never be the same again. It shows how the government was trying to address this over the past year, but where were the CBI and Tories until things blew up in peoples faces? I think, opposition politicians and the media have a role in responsible governance and properly informing the public. An absence of good quality information and attitudes just fuels chaos. That's something for both the Tories and their media pals to chew on.
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Bulldog @ 230
Okay fair enough, I'm sorry.
Back to your Champagne Socialist point though ... you saying that you have to be struggling and poor to be on the Left?
And I guess you have to be a super rich international arms dealer to be on the Right then, yes?
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Mark @ 228 (and 229)
... "So you see it is not easy to label me on the left/right wing scale easily" ...
Okay I won't label you then. But you would appear to be one of the Good Guys ... you know, on balance, in the round, over the piece, all things considered.
Your posts are doubling up, by the way ... which is great news seeing as you are a Good Guy!
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I find brown's joke at a time of huge worry for all of us, crass, but not surprising.
i dont trust him at all.
*whats to say that the phone ringing and subsequant joke were not another alistair campbell set up?
(paranoid i maybe - but i remember blairs downing st entrance after winning the 1997 election, flag waving people in the street cheering etc, which was later revealed to be labour activists from around the country flown in for the occasion - passed off as the general public!)
* now that brown appears to have persuaded others in europe to join in him in getting the IMF to remove or revise upwards the GDP % limits for government borrowing, (hardly got a mention via the BBC) why are there no guarantees that the money will be used for the purpose of the "new" financial plan?
there is nothing to stop brown using this money to fund existing projects that his own government figures reveal he cant afford.
labour's track record on taxing in the name of X then spending only a small % on X and the rest being used for Y (which we were not told about) is appalling.
if hes borrowing billions, lets make sure these billions goto what they are being borrowed for, safeguards must be put in place to protect us from the government as well as financial markets!
im disappointed that the taxpayer seems to be shafted at both ends - we pay the interest on the huge borrowing, to prop up the system, we lose out if the banks go under.
isnt it time we the taxpayer were put first?
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#232 Charles
But isn't this simply what the Basel II recommendations from 2004 about anyway?
Banks should have adjusted their capital up anyway to comply in 2008, and the FSA should have been keeping an eye on them to make sure that they were in the process of doing that.
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So, I guess it's official then; Iceland is a terrorist organisation according to Brown, who's now using anti-terrorist legislation to try and get his money back before due process.
Who said that labour would never abuse the terrorism legislation?
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232
I think addressing the problems in the banking sector over the last year is coming to the game a bit late. The serious problems have been building since 2003.
Why should opposition have a role in repsonsible governance when those of us who have been questioning the boom for the last five years - Vince Cable is another - have been treated like the village idiot?
No, I am sorry, there has been a massive failure of collective imagination, an intense desire of a morally bankrupt political party to remain in power at whatever cost, and an assumption that the virtual economy of CDOs, SIVs and any other acronym one can conceive would go on for ever.
Silly old men, such as I, who used to prattle on about investment in terms of added value and return have been excluded from the debates. Now, I whilst I feel utterly impoverished, blazing angry at incompetence, I do get the odd frisson of satisfaction that there is nothing wrong with my judgement. I would appreciate a large bonus for being proved right but I won't hold my breath.
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Charles you should have read the article before linking to it.
Contained within is the smoking gun:
the banks will have to hold more capital and will face greater scrutiny of their business risk by the Financial Services Authority, which is throwing its weight around after being caught napping during the boom years.
Ah so there it is then the FSA set up by Gordon Brown were the ones that were caught napping. Nothing to do with Thatchers deregulation then but everything to do with Browns additional deregulation.
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Pot @ 231
... "I am pleased to note that concealed in the post was a shift to the right. Admitting that it should be Equality of Opportunity not Outcome that should be the goal. Can you now pass that on to the current government who are all about equality of outcome" ...
Oooo, hang on a minute ... I'm into more equality of outcome as well, you know. Just that it would be "more" rather than "total" in that case.
Never underestimate the clear thinking progressiveness of a Left Wing Extremist!
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#231 pot
Thank you for updating Saga. I've been a bit busy for the past hour. I work in IT in banks, and for some unknown reason the past few days have been a little hectic. Fortunately I don't work on trade systems.
So at last we're getting down to the nub of the education argument. Everybody should have the right to have the lowest common denominator, and woe betide anybody who aspires for more, even if it were available and they could afford it. Right now, under this farsighted labour government, everybody seems to have the right to go to Uni provided they are willing to pay for it.
Now that seems to me, on the surface, to be fair and reasonable, and to satisfy all side of the argument.
Do I agree with it? Now that's a totally different question.
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184. T'uga Mawilli (aka Duoteste)
Ooh, I see that the various councils involvement in banking at Iceland is growing
A good excuse for all that missing money. Better than saying they paid £12,000 a month to rent a house for an Afghan single mother and her 7 children!
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233
Not at all, the point is the there is no credibility with fat cats encouraging others to strike, and sacrifice everything, and then go home on full pay, and self congratulation.
It's like Bono, urging everyone to did deep for charity once a year, and then demanding that his faverite hat be flown over the Atlantic first classs to him
It's an extreme but it stands. Bob Crow is no more a socialist than I am, probably because he doesn't believe in it.
Sure he makes the right noises about it, but there is nothing Karl Marx about him (his hero).
Marx as I understand is was nearly alway poor.
All that aside, in my humbe opinion there is something quite sickening about a champagne socialist, you either believe in your cause or not.
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When the phrase 'Never be the same again' is used, I tend to become a cynic. The banking system may appear to have changed for the next few years but as things get good again old habits will return.
When The Independent uses that phrase however, I tend to ignore it completely. At least the banking crisis makes a change from the usual headlines on that paper namely; 1) How we are all going to die from Global Warming (despite all the adverts for motoring and air travel), 2) How Israel is horrible because of X (according to Robert Fisk or Patrick Cockburn), 3) Something about George Bush and a negative piece about America (although that may soon change.) I used to read that paper virtually every day for about 4 years and it was so predictable...
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The government loan guarantees are for the businesses which will be borrowing the money. So, the government is ensuring the people who need the money will get it and won't be underwriting the banks mistakes.
The money the government is making available to banks to put back liquidity into the system is being loaned at commercial rates. So, the taxpayer will actually turn a profit from this deal.
Before you're made any more confused or angry by the Tories and their media pals, the government has delivered exactly what you asked for. If I were you I'd call that a result.
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Denzil @ 235
..."isn't it time we the taxpayer were put first?" ...
Well of course but it's all collective isn't it?
I mean, it just depends on your attitude to the whole tax thing. Let me ask you ... if you're in a job that pays 100 a year gross and 60 net, what's your view on that please?
1. I earn 100 and then the government comes along and takes away 40 leaving me with only 60 of what's rightly mine. The 40 is MY MONEY.
2. I earn 60 and the company employing me makes a forced contribution of 40 to the government for the common good. The 40 is EVERYONE'S MONEY.
So many people seem to feel that the correct answer is number 1 whereas it is, in fact, number 2.
The debate looks different if we recognise that, don't you think?
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Man, you guys are stretching. Sure, things could've happened quicker or been executed better but you can say that about anything. The fact is the right thing got done eventually and the FSA helped stop people tripping over their own shoes. It's an improvement. Take the deal.
One thing I've learned in development is you can shoot for the moon and end on your ass. Demanding perfection is fine but at some point you have to ship. Getting scheduling and gameplay right doesn't just fall out of the sky no matter how much forum wannabes like to scream.
Labour shipped product. Folks bought it. 'Nuff said.
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Uggghhhh
Who put that new photo at the top.
Its offensive, wheres the complain button.
I feel sick
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I notice Cameron's not made much noise. I suspect he is busy opening up several hundred bank accounts to spread his risk.
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Bulldog @ 243
... "It's like Bono, urging everyone to did deep for charity once a year, and then demanding that his faverite hat be flown over the Atlantic first classs to him" ...
Let's end on a note of complete agreement! ... Bono is a case of pass the sick bucket. Don't like the songs that much either, if I'm honest.
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Tuga @ 241
... "I work in IT in banks, and for some unknown reason the past few days have been a little hectic" ...
Interesting but that can't explain all of the recent problems, can it?
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Folks can have life changing moments and carry on along that path if they remain mindful. I don't see how countries or organisations are any different. This is why Zen promotes healthy scepticism not cynicism. By taking a more enlightened approach you can help bring about that change instead of contributing to problems. Zen also teaches that this is a personal affair - self-enlightenment is key.
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250
Agreed.
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248
Peter Mandlesons not kneeling close by is he?
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@ 232 - charles
thankyou sir for sharing that article. all information is good regardless which side it comes from, but one part of the article stood out for me:
"They [the banks] will also have to pay more for the Government's guarantee of their debt if their business models are judged to be risky [by the FSA] – another incentive to toe the line."
when will they ever learn?
if the business, ie the banks, have to pay more, who do you think will see increased charges, fees, interest, etc, to recover those extra costs?
the customer perhaps?
"if their business model is judged to be too risky..."
- are the FSA of this planet? gordon brown promised us that the FSA would safeguard the people, the banking system, etc. when he removed the powers to step in from the BofE back in 1997.
the simple fact is, the FSA failed to do this, gordon brown is responsible for setting the criteria that governs the banks, albeit indirectly.
now the new bosses of the FSA think that by charging the banks more for the latest rescue package money, if they have a risky business model.
* what criteria will be deemed risky?
no one knows
* will there be safeguards to stop this being passed onto customers?
no one knows
* if safeguards are there to stop extra costs being passed onto customers, how will we know that the FSA will be able to stop them from being abused?
no one knows
i seriously despair at the FSA being given any powers, they are useless, slow to act and the banks fob them off with ease.
the banks will manipulate the laws and rules that they have set to work under, to gain maximum profits, take a look around the internet on consumer forums on dealing with them, hundreds of thousands of people are fighting to get existing laws upheld and recover money, keep their homes, etc.
".... another incentive to toe the line"
- the best incentive of the lot is the fear of losing everything!
for example: stand on a customer (against laws already in place) make it easy for the customer to have their consumer credit license removed - leaving them unable to trade as a financial company.
the laws are already in place, the FSA are turning a blind eye to the banks blatantly ignoring them as regards the structure of their business and their dealings with individual customers.
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247
Indeed Charles, do you remember 1997 and `things can only get better'?
It makes me smile every time I think about it.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Oooh, Dear Leader. *strokes screen lovingly*
Actually, I think, you're just messin' around. Secretly, you're impressed and can't admit it. But, that's okay cuz Dear Leader loves everyone including YOU.
Go on, do the happy dance.
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CEH @ 247
... "Labour shipped product. Folks bought it. 'Nuff said"
top TOP!
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#206
"From the RMT, he gets about 100 grand".
So almost a million then?
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denzil @ 255
... "I seriously despair at the FSA being given any powers, they are useless, slow to act and the banks fob them off with ease" ...
You are absolutely right and this is the nub of the problem. The failure of regulation (and there has most certainly been one) has little to do with systems and responsibilities. It's to do with PEOPLE. The salaries on offer for jobs at the regulatory authorities are pathetic in comparison with those at the banks they are meant to be regulating. Thus, of the people who want to work in the City, the cleverest go into banks not into regulation.
If you pay the poachers ten times as much as the gamekeeper, who do you think will tend to come out on top? If we flipped this around, the problem would be pretty much solved. All this stuff about tripartite versus BoE versus FSA is a red herring.
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185. sagamix wrote:
Course you can! ... but 4 (Right Wing Extremist Category) "always puts freedom of choice above equality of opportunity" as per the definition so you're captured fine there, I'd say.
Id like to appeal on the grounds of floored logic.
I dont always put FOC first, but do tend to.
2 examples where I am happy for my freedom to be limited for the benefit of equality.
I am happy to be regulated by race or sex discrimination legislation when I employ people.
I am happy with the idea of a minimum wage. (that for example is a good way of rasing the bar).
So while I may or may not be extreme right wing, your equation does not work.
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re: 248
Mandelson's finger is just out of shot.
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#243
So, how much money do you have to earn before being it being hypocritical to have left-wing views?
On Bob Crow, much as I hate to defend the man, I suspect you are still exaggerating on his pay - I can't find anything on the RMT website about his pay, and a £37,000 pay rise 2004-2008 - over 50% - seems unlikely. Only City Boys deserve (and get) those kind of pay-rises.
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I would imagine that millionaires and billionaires must be worried sick about spreading their money around in £50,000 bundles.
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260. balhamu
"From the RMT, he gets about 100 grand".
So almost a million then?
I have to conceed that sounds more like the truth.
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@ 245 - charles
@ 246 - sagamix
"... the government is ensuring the people who need the money will get it and won't be underwriting the banks mistakes."
- so they tell us, but safeguards have yet to be examined or details released for us to see for ourselves. what is to stop brown and co using some of this money to fund other government projects?
"...The money the government is making available... is being loaned at commercial rates. So, the taxpayer will actually turn a profit from this deal."
- this just misses one key fact - the interest to pay for the government borrowing has not been factored into the sum!
at what interest rate is the government borrowing the money in the first place?
"... the government has delivered exactly what you asked for. If I were you I'd call that a result"
- the devil is in the detail with gordon brown - labour policies should come with a * attached to stop breaches of advertising standards - for example "we are increasing the winter allowance for the elderly *" is advertised, at the same time as reducing back payments for unclaimed pensioner benefits (from 12 to 3 months) and the winter allowance is paid out only if the weekly average temperature falls below a certain level.
Now for sagamix:
the debate over option 1 or 2 (both could be applied as true in different scenarios) could have an option 3 added that would do away with options 1 and 2?
Option 3 - the 40 taken off me by the government is too high an amount.
contrary to other posters, i am not left or right wing, and when a point of view is put across in the manner you both use, it is a valued one.
i would hope that you are both (in part) "old labour" style people?
"new labour" approach i detest - "old labour" are to be respected and dont spin their argument or mock to get the upper hand...
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258. Charles_E_Hardwidge
LOL, Im dancin, Im dancing.
But ill stroke this screen if its ok with you.
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@ 262
... "I'd like to appeal on the grounds of floored logic" ...
Okay, I admit the floor. Seeing as you've dropped the nutcake "Freedomist" talk, the Appeal is allowed in this particular case ... but not a precedent so don't anybody else be getting ideas.
So what do you want to be?
Moderate Right?
That's done.
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Good comment.
Folks just have to discover themselves. It's like one of those moments when you see an awesome moment in a movie or a piece of half remembered music gives you shiver down the spine.
I was playing Rainbow 6: Vegas 2 and generally snoring my way through it but, I gotta say, the scene when clinging to the outside of the skyskraper was a real Die Hard moment.
Labour do that for me, the Tories don't.
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sagamix
I've spoken about education to you in the past and you were closing in on being complimentary on that subject.
I admire you're admission that you are a number one.
However number 1 can only work if everybody has a collective conscience. Too many people do not have a conscience and its not something that can be given, imposed or taught.
It is a fact of life that those without a conscience will take advantage of those that have. Its just impossible to legislate a way around it.
The fat cat bankers have no conscience that goes without saying, their earnings are obscene and completely unjustifiable.
At the other end of the scale you have people who are quite happy to receive benefits and let the working class go out to work to pay for them. Again no conscience.
Do you really think we can give everybody a conscience.
When somebody puts their child in a private school do you think their conscience should stop them and think no I mustn't because its for the greater good that they are schooled by the state.
When consciences won't stop fat cat bankers and benefits cheats then how can you expect it to stop people putting their kids in private education.
As I eluded to on a previous blog the education system has now got into a serious downward spiral in that it is beginning to rely more heavily on the parents to educate the children.
Perversely this has been initiated by Labour and has the effect of discriminating against those children whose parents think it is the states job to educate their children and not them.
Hence where the parents can and do help their children they do, and then some, and these children prosper.
However where the parents can't or won't help their children these children suffer and get further behind and eventually end up being disruptive.
Tell me this. Will the abolition of Private schools stop this problem?
This problem can be made less severe by just stopping homework for the under 11's.
Thats my idea, I want to do it even though my childrens education may suffer. But it is for the greater good. Its also easy to do. Why hasn't it been done.
You tell me where I fit in the 1 to 4
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264
Hey Ho, been called a liar once to day..
Read it youself
BBC transcript any Questions 22/08/08.
JAMES DELINGPOLE
I presume that this was mainly a Bob Crow related question is it responsible. Bob Crow’s duty, responsibility is to his members. He earns his £99,634 salary for doing that, for doing that job and he has done it very well. But we are not all members of the RMT in fact relatively very few of us in the British population are and those of us who aren’t represented by unions, those of us for example in my profession, the word rate you get paid for an article has not increased since 1988 which is when I started being a journalist. So a 5% annual pay rise seems to me a ruddy miracle. The economy is about to go into recession, has just gone into recession, we also face the grim prospect of stagflation whereby the economy is going into recession at the same time we have got inflation. this is a real problem and it is no good blaming energy prices which have got nothing to do with the energy companies and everything to do with supply and demand I think that we need to recognize people like Bob Crow as dinosaurs of the 1970’s and they should be consigned back to the 1970’s like the dinosaurs that they are.
BOB CROW
Well I don’t accept that because the reality would be how comes every time we ask for a pay rise people say jobs will go but these Chief Executives and they get pay rises and I don’t see their jobs going and in fact the company that we done a deal with this week the average salary of a Director was £660,000 a lot higher than the £99,000 that you researched and I give you credibility for you doing your research and secondly they got an £80,000 pension and they have made £200 million profits in the last 3 years and the fact is it is always the workers fault. The problem that we have got with energy at the moment and the problem and the problem we have got with utilities is that we don’t own these companies. Gordon Brown can’t do nothing. David Cameron couldn’t do nothing and the liberal leader whatever I forget his name he can’t do nothing neither.
So there you have it I made a mistake and admitted ironically so few other High thinkers do.
As to your question, about how much much money do you have to earn before being it being hypocritical to have left-wing views?
You can earn what you like but you face the critisism to encourage others to strike for what ever reasons (work rotas was the issue in Scotland, I believe), and let those you represent strike with the possibility of not getting paid and have no loss of earnings your self. I call that hypocrassy.
So I guess Bob is more of a city boy than you guess, I'm an engineers and so don't know about such things.
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Man, I just groan at the way big companies close their minds and mess everyone up in the country. BT is putting its head in the sand over IPV6 because the little weeners can't get their head around a fixed bug in Cisco equipment or give a hoot for their customers. It's reasons like this that folks with brains and money are leaving this country. Again, this is stuff the "Brown Plan" will help fix, and where are the Tories and their pals, huh?
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I'm just a Zen Buddhist. Never been a member of Labour or voted for them. The mess in here just started when a whole bunch of new people who didn't know how to use the internet just rammed in here and leapt on some Tory bandwagon. Whatever I may think or feel I'm just generally hoping folks get a clue and behave. That goes for everyone.
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Denzil @ 267
... "when a point of view is put across in the manner you both use, it is a valued one.
I would hope that you are both (in part) "old labour" style people?" ...
Why thank you! ... but I'd say I'm not so much Old Labour as a Left Wing Extremist or, as I more like to say, a Clear Thinking Progressive.
On the tax example therefore, rather than say I'm paying 40pc tax on the gross of 100, I say I earn the 60 net and my company pays 66.66 pc tax on that. More like an NIC way of looking at it. Semantics, you may say, but I think it makes quite a difference to one's outlook.
On the failures of regulation, BTW, I am extremely convinced of what I'm saying at number 261. It's a people problem.
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Nick,
I hope that you go back to my posting of your Banks Rescue Plan, Good or Bad Idea #4
Do you think that I could have your job, my reference to the Cod Wars was the first that I heard. Is there is no credit given for ideas and quotes from the general public, or do I have to blow my own trumpet, remember, you read it on Nicks Log, Griffin was first, as usual.
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Future @ 271
... "You tell me where I fit in the 1 to 4" ...
Well this category stuff is just a bit of fun, I know people don't really fit into neat little boxes but, for what it's worth, I'd say that you were Moderate Left. A very good thing to be!
As regards do I believe what I'm saying about private education, yes I do. I believe it very strongly, which is why I bang on about it so much ... for me, it's probably the most important issue of all. Would be nice if it wasn't political, of course, but I'm afraid it is.
Key things are:
- all state sector
- upgrade teaching profession
- no government interference
The point about teaching, I reckon is crucial. Rather like financial regulation, it can only be effective if you attract really good people. I'd like to see fifty gees as a starting salary for high school teachers. Let's have the cream going into this job instead of faffing around trading foreign exchange and the like.
I'm positive that, if you did that in tandem, with taking away the option for some people to buy out, it would be truly transformational. And quick too ... I bet we'd see significant positive results within 5 years.
On the homework for really young children point, I agree with you that it's onerous and counter productive.
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Of course he is smiling!
His parliamentary pension is safe!
Unlike to pensions of everyone in the private sector who has had their pension raided to the tune of £5billion a year, and now utterly decimated by the fall in shares.
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This is the worst Government, this country has ever had!!!
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#274 CEH writes - I'm just a Zen Buddhist. Never been a member of Labour or voted for them.
Really? Why?
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#279
No, this is not the worst government, it is the worst Parliament.
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Paan @ 279
... "This is the worst Government, this country has ever had" ...
Sure is! ... apart from most the others.
Future @ 271
... "However number 1 can only work if everybody has a collective conscience. Too many people do not have a conscience and its not something that can be given, imposed or taught" ...
Agree, of course, that some people have more of a conscience than others. That's why, for certain things, you need the law to take a hand. That doesn't detract from my position, it rather reinforces it, no?
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Irresponsibility Brown will have the smirk wiped off his face soon enough. The public finances were in a dreadful mess because of Irresponsibility Brown's tenure as Chancellor and now they are going into meltdown. The day of reckoning will definitely come and it will enforce cuts in public spending and tax rises for the public too. Either that, or we end up like Zimbabwe under Mugabe with hyper inflation and a wrecked economy. Get rid of Mugabe Brown - we need a new Government committed to sound public finances!
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sagamix
Thanks for replying.
I would have put myself at about 2.5
I do agree with you about the lack of government interference.
Although this would lead me to conclude you are not quite as much of a left wing extremist as you say you are.
I do stand to be corrected.
I do agree with you that the teaching profession should be upgraded but I have to admit to a problem with everything being state run at the moment.
One point I will make is that I can't see the causal effect, that the existence of private schools causes the state schools to be less effective.
Most of the private education is done after the age of 11 and up to 11 more is done in the state arena.
I have a 10 year old son in state education who will remain in state education but there are a significant number of his peers whose parents are considering private education for various reasons.
I am absolutely certain that the damage to a childs education is done before 11 which is more state controlled than afterwards.
I don't know how to square the circle but its a fact that the government has more control over the under 11's and the results are not encouraging.
If the 11 year olds are not leaving the primary school with the necessary skills ie. reading writing and numeracy, then they are severely handicapped when they go to secondary education. This is where the problem lies and the state does not seem to be sorting the problem out.
I was watching a program about 6 months ago where a government representative was accepting that 18% of 11 year olds
were not up to scratch with the 3 R's. He also stated that the government had a target to reduce the figure to 17%. I nearly blew a fuse. The figures beggarred belief. If that is how the government is talking should we really put them in complete charge of our childrens education.
Being proficient in the 3R's at 11 is absolutely FUNDAMENTAL to a childs future and to accept 17% as a target left me beyond speechless.
I need something to happen to restore my faith in democratic government before I could agree to full state education.
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Dunno. My inner ultra hardcore right wing round the twist barking mad master of the universe extremist jumps the tracks a bit. Probably, that.
I'm sure Dear Leader forgives me. *wink*
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Shocking. He has no idea of the misery he has inflicted on millions. Off with his head.
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Say YES to freedom.
Say NO to Labour.
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re: 274
Whatever I may think or feel I'm just generally hoping folks get a clue and behave. That goes for everyone.
Ah I see, that must be why you constantly gush pseudo-religious quackery.
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No wonder Gordon Brown is smiling. He is about to launch his own mini-Faulklands Armada against the Icelandic nation. Relations have grown extremely chilly, but as Brown has neglected the Navy, as he does all essential military equipment, he is sending in the Shrimp Boats. Beware, Icemen, The shrimpboats are coming', they're coming tonight, the shrmip boats are coming.....(all sing)!
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re: 283
Brown's got a long way to go before he's as popular as Mugabe. He could start by disembowelling himself, Mishima style!
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Once again we are in his debt...
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130Tugamawilli
You seem to be a clever fellow.
Your simplistic view of the Falklands war indicates that what you know of it, was the Gung Ho! reports that you read in the the Tory press. I'm not going to go into it here as I have already done in a previous blog, but the long and short of it was that MT was warned of the situation at least a year or so before she finally decided to do something about it, the Argentinians had been occupying South Georgia for about three years before that. she was told by the survey ship skippers of the situation but she ignored them.
A small contingent of British troops stationed on the Falklands would have prevented a bloody war in which many men died.
If you think that justifies your rather foolish remarks, then your concern is obviously not as great as mine.
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!33 shellingout
"Perhaps you should delve a little deeper into the reason for the Falklands war, in order to form a unbiased opinion"
You mean like your unbiased opinions?
If you have an axe to grind old chap then spit it out, if you think my opinions on a particular point are biased then your at liberty to challenge it, but dont say
"You mean like your unbiased opinions?"
and then run!
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re: 289
Prescott better stay out of the water or the Icelanders'll harpoon him. Thar he blows!
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207 Mark we,
Diplomacy should start before a war not after Margaret Thatcher had been warned well in advance of the situation , with diplomacy and careful planning it could easily have been avoided.
I'm afraid you analogy is rather absurd.
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What's needed is some dynamism. Maybe its on a roll now and Brown has been wound up and is raring to go. Warrior nation.
All I can think is that Iceland built so many igloos that melted and the people there didn't repay their mortgages lent to them with British money.
Actually, its laudable of our Councils to loan out money to the poor downtrodden undersociety for their igloos in Iceland. Afghans with mansions here, Icelanders with igloo, what the hell.
It's not the council's money that's why they don't care where it goes. If they'd got one clued up person to see months ago that Icelandic banks were going down they might have spread it around like we all did.
Now they will have to put off decorating the mayor's parlour and maybe use the mayor's limo. a lot less. Poor them.
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Whaaaat. arguing about the Falklands war again? Send you lot to the Falklands say I.
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156 Charles E Hardwidge
Once again your interfering in my posts,
I dont need your advice, anymore than you need mine so please stop offering unwanted advice to me. you giving the real enemy ammunition to fire.
Would you answer one question? I think your a honest man,did you refer my post to the moderaters?, a simple yes or no will suffice.
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grandantidote, reading your comments is like having dinner with a certain relative of mine who comes round and can't remember anyone's name, and who then has too much brandy and starts rambling on about the thirties. Devoid of humour, wit, intelligence, a point... On the positive side however, you are indeed a master at capturing that sensation in a few short lines.
If only you did something useful with your talent!
(BTW peeps don't vote Labour).
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221 the bulldog breed , God help us then.
Pa ha ha ha
Who refered my tirade to the moderaters, Walter "Grandarchichoke" the Softy?
Please sir he mention the Falklands too and laboured on the truth!
Hmmmm I but you had lots of drawing pins on your chair.
And you consider yourself to be the Bulldog breed do you, well if your post is a indication of what you think the Bulldog breed represents then your a very sick inividual and a insult to the real Bulldog breed of this country.
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The councils should have invested in NS and I, surely?
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#59 - sagamix - "#1 EOP is always more important to me than FOC. Thus, when it comes to education, even if I knew the impact on STAN would be negative, I would still support the abolition of private schools. ... Where are you then? ...#1 is Left Wing Extremist (like me)"
I am very tempted to write something a bit emotional in response to message #59, but I am not going to, not only because it might not see the light of day, but also because the diatribe will not add anything very constructive to the debate.
All I am going to do is ask a simple question: why is it that whenever a zealous "equality campaigner" achieves high office, that person invariably seems to adopt a lifestyle and attitude contrary to all that he or she formerly believed?
This inconsistency is one of the reasons I am highly suspicious of the motives and agenda of "the left".
End of gentle rant.
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193 Charles E Hardwidge wrote
"Business, media, and popular culture are in bad shape, and it makes me embarassed to live here. Plus, media output like 'Little Britain' is just exporting a bad brand identity abroad and sketches like Harry Enfield's Philiphino maid aren't winning friends and influencing people."
You musn't pour scorn on to one of our most successful industries. This country taking the micky out of itself in programs like these. Is a sign of its self confidence. We shouldn't make comedy to advertise what a great country this would be to invest in etc. It would be rubbish.
I admit that The pet Geordie sketches like the phillipinno maid are embarrasingly unfunny and a little controversial for the sake of attention grabbing. But most of the best comedys show has its dud sketches and this is a very big dud.
So Gordon Brown isn't allowed to laugh at the Conservative party now? first the complaints about the dour scot. Now he's laughing instead of looking serious and thoughtful about the problem at hand. This gossip column style political journalism is getting out of hand.
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#272
You're right re salary - the 07/08 Annual Report of the Trade Union Certification Officer gives the same figure. £75,684 basic pay and £23,950 benefits (including pension arrangements and all taxable benefits).
re striking
most disputes that RMT have carried forward to strike action are short. They normally achieve their goals, at least in London (average £40,000/year salary, 35 hour week, 9 weeks annual leave, generous pensions and free travel, difficult to get sacked or disciplined). They have gained a reputation as a union to be messed with at TfLs peril and get their way more often than not. I'm sure RMT members are quite pleased and feel they get good value from their antagonistic leader.
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You mean the stuff that agrees with science and is relevant to the topic, and can also be found in standard books on management, marketing, psychology, philosophy, history, and game design?
Zen is many things but, also, a method for developing intellectual, emotional, judgemental, and intuitive aspects of perception, or analysis and creation. The rest is really up to you.
A fallen flower,
Flew back to it's branch!
No, it was a butterfly.
-- Moritake.
The mind often gets in its own way. Bad policy and greed are obvious examples. When the mind is clear is removes ego and allows correctness to arise. Zen just helps us take another look.
The moon in the water;
Broken and broken again,
Still it is there.
-- Choshu.
So, we think this and feel that. These things come and go, clouding our vision of policy and personality, so we misunderstand and create junk or hate what we see. But, reality is still there under the surface.
The thief
Left it behind -
The moon at the window.
-- Ryokan.
The Prime Minister has a moment of happiness. I think, people can understand and relate to that. I know some folks are seething but but why would you want to steal happiness? It's fine were it is.
I'm going out of my way not to answer that question, and not necessarily for whatever conclusions you may or may not jump to.
Sweeping up the leaves
In the train
Of departing spring.
-- Buson.
I pretty much picked this one at random but it says a few things. I'm leaving it to the reader to enjoy and reflect on, as they feel appropriate.
Why is it that razor sharp whippy young things full of drive and innovation hit CEO and become the dumbest and out of touch retreads who kick the ladder away from under them and go out of their way to annoy customers?
I go
Thou stayest:
Two autumns.
-- Buson.
Sorry, just got a bit bored.
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Back to the topic.
Brown told a joke and has even been seen smiling.
Does this make him a bad leader? Does this mean he is being light-hearted about the current crisis? Does it mean he is glad that the economy is about to enter recession?
I remember a few months ago. There were stories in the press about a shouting Brown who threw phones at the wall. This was also 'a bad thing'. Too moody.
A cynic might see that people on this blog just criticise Brown for the sake of it.
I'm not a cynic though, especially towards all the reasonable folk who post on this blog.
So I'll ask - what should Brown do to make sure he has an appropriate 'crisis demeanour'?
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# 285 CEH
Charles - Thanks for your answer to my question as to why you have never voted Labour ie - Dunno. My inner ultra hardcore right wing round the twist barking mad master of the universe extremist jumps the tracks a bit. Probably, that.
Very illuminating I'm sure, if only to other Zen Buddhists.
I came across the following reference to Zen Buddhism - One of the central points of Zen is intuitive understanding. As a result, words and sentences have no fixed meaning, and logic is often irrelevant. Words have meaning only in relation to who is using them, who they are talking to, and what situation they are used in.
I'm not sure that is right - or if there is such a thing as right. If it is then, whereas I have no wish to be offensive to you or Zen Buddhists and I know I'm showing my ignorance, I have to say that it reminds me of Alice in Wonderland when Humpty Dumpty says : When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.
On the downside, I fear Zen Buddhism is beyond me. On the upside, I now have insight into why I find much of what you say to be opaque, if not meaningless.
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Average British media ouput compares poorly with entertainment and news in America, mainland Europe, and elsewhere. Both businesses and notable names in British media have said as much. I wouldn't want to associate myself with that level or tone of quality. I'll also add that, I think, it's contributed to a significant drop of inward investment over the last few years.
As things have changed we've ended up in situation where general intellectual effort is more scattered, and the emotional tone more reactive. That drop is reflected across crime figures, educational attainment, and language and word usage. I think, it's all related and a sign that the average maturity has dropped.
By slamming into the reality wall the fantasy economics and daydreams of finance and marketing, and so on, have to get a grip. More order and balance is reasserting itself, and this plays directly into the hands of better policy making. Perception lags reality, and so on, but the overall situation can improve if folks remain focused.
Both Tories and media have gone for the punchy and negative to get attention and boost sales, but the polls and circulation figures for both are soft. Both opposition and media could improve and help raise Britain's batting average. Britain will collapse or the Tories and media will collapse, unless they change. At least, that's how I see it.
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224. sagamix
Quite right brother let market forces set the rates. its the only way.
Just imagine the chaos if government started setting plumbers rates, it would make the butterfly effect look predictable.
What next quotas?
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192. Grawth
I wholly agree with all your sentiments.
Put the private schools out of business by offering a superb state system.
Entice parents to opt back in. fantastic.
But do not ban private education, just make it look like a waste of money.
The state has no right to tell me how to educate my kids, it should only offer me one option.
Oh yeah... Donk is the character out of Croc Dundee. The big guy in the bar at the beginning of the film.
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269. sagamix wrote:
... "I'd like to appeal on the grounds of floored logic" ...
Okay, I admit the floor. Seeing as you've dropped the nutcake "Freedomist" talk, the Appeal is allowed in this particular case ... but not a precedent so don't anybody else be getting ideas.
So what do you want to be?
Moderate Right?
mmmmm can I have Moderate and Right?
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Look mods, can someone take down that awful picture.
It offensive and is likely to elicit violent behavour.... in me.
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#302 .. the philosopher Herbert Marcuse recognised the trait of politicians and other public figures to adopt contrary ideas when they attained high office ... he called it "embourgeoisement" .. he thought it was all part of a plot by the ruling elite to buy off troublemakers and mavericks ... maybe it's simpler than that... they just get to like the view from a greater height !
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POSTING EXPERIMENT:
Speaking as an expert on the subject....... the software on this web-site sucks.
By co-incidence only, I'm sure, it makes me laugh that innocuous postings (that pass house rules) - but that also give the give the government a really timely hard kicking - disappear into the ether once you press post!
What is even funnier is that the software does not accept a similarly worded re-type of broadly the same content however many times you re-hash the same broad argument. Similar postings always disappear before ever getting near the pre-moderation stage.
This off-the-wall missive will, however, be happily posted 'awaiting moderation' because it does not spell out exactly why this government deserves a really hard kicking in (polite) terms, that hits left leaning voters between the eyes, in a way that even they (yes, even they!) get with the programme.
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300
Why are you such a whinger? God! believe it or not I've done my 22 years and have come out no thanks to this shower of a Government with a whole skin, which is more than I can say for many. So yes I am from that breed unlike the present govenment non whom I am aware have ever served.
I have even served with a Tory MP who during Sabatical took time to go to Afghanistan on active service.
So for Gods sake put a sock in it on issues you have no knowlegde about, you ridiculous breakfast table General.
Get back to your knitting.
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306 Balhamu
Brown has told a joke and is smiling..... Yes that is a bad thing.
It is impossible to post the reasons why on this blog, because however politely you put the full list of facts, it gets referred to the moderators.
Once referred, the software seems to hate you typing broadly the same set of words - even when toned down from innocuous to less than dull - even when innocuous words are re-drafted in a different order.
Brown deserves the smile wiped off his face (because of his 11 year track record). Although it is impossible to find a way of getting this message across to you given the various limitations of this blog.
I'm not going to end this post by calling for an election - Instead I'm going to call for an independent blog with software that works.
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298 grandantidote
I have to agree, you do seem to be going of on a bit of a tangent. Don't start fighting with your own side.You know what happens when you do that. Perhaps the Cod wars would be more appropriate.
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306. balhamu
So I'll ask - what should Brown do to make sure he has an appropriate 'crisis demeanour'?
Gordon Brown is not popular with many people if the comments one reads and hears, both in the media and on the street are correct. He has an unenviable job in office as a global financial catastrophe takes place. If he smiles, he is accused of being pleased at the situation, yet if he appears with a serious face, the wretched man is called 'a dour Scot.' It is a no-win situation.
Probably most people haven't the foggiest idea what the solution to this really serious crisis is. Many will resort to silly jokes, trying to make the best of a bad situation. It's easy to complain at Brown's countenance, because even if one approves of his politics, honesty prevents one from saying he is attractive to look at. It shouldn't matter how a person looks, it should be actions that count, but unfortunately in this age of TV appearances, personalities are viewed warts and all, and popularity can depend on a smart haircut or a pair of shoes.
So to return to the question, what should Brown do to make sure he has the correct crisis demeanor. Alas, short of becoming the man in the iron mask, I do not have an answer!
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I was tickled by the comment that Brown said he was angry about irresponsible bankers and didn't like the huge bonuses.
I like a bit of righteous anger.
Just find it odd that, during his decade as Chancellor, he and his mini-ministers, plus loads of advisors, hadn't spotted that an awful lot of the population were pretty teed off about the same topic.
But we weren't in a position to do anything about it.
He, with the FSA, could have done a bit of public stropping to try and cool down - and actually manage - the financial sector.
I'd have been very pleased if Brown had stood up to bankers years ago. Not wait until all the world is hammering them, then show how tough he now is by getting a little cross.
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It might actually be true. A part of me is a screaming mad carpet chewing extremist nutter like Adolf Hitler. I just don't let it out very often as it tends to give me a bad reputation. Plus, it's a lot of hard work and I'm getting too old for that. So, if someone reminds me or I remember, I give it a little wave then forget about it. I figure, if it gets bored enough it will wander off on its own.
Zen is really just about dropping habit and emotional attachment, and seeing things as they are and a sense creativity. It's quite ordinary really. Nothing special, but this can be a bit confusing as the ordinary can be very special. I guess, it's that perspective thing again. Things change depending on how you see them; life is what you make it, etcetera.
Koans are just paradoxes and allegories to knock the mind into that track. I tend not to bother with them because they make me feel dumb and I'm lazy, so for me life is the best teacher. Hence, the saying that when the student is ready the teacher will arrive. Some folks may have preconceptions about that but it could be something from a person with a moment of insight to a shiny pebble, and everything in between.
I'm not making this any easier am I? o_O
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whoa did i stumble into tory party central office.
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World must follow my example says Brown.
BWAHAHAHA! He's finally cracked!
Britain's doomed!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
We are doomed. As long as the central cause of the crisis is not addressed (personal debt at record highs), we are headed to a recession and then depression. Is GB smiling? No idea! Seems a bit of a sad case really.
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For anyone new to this site please note...
Watch out... There are Political Trolls about.
A Troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.
The whole purpose of this site is to encourage debate and diverse opinion. When someone continually posts blinkered, moronic remarks solely to be disruptive, whatever their political beliefs, they should be moderated.
I rest my case.
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#246 sagamix
I mean, it just depends on your attitude to the whole tax thing. Let me ask you ... if you're in a job that pays 100 a year gross and 60 net, what's your view on that please?
1. I earn 100 and then the government comes along and takes away 40 leaving me with only 60 of what's rightly mine. The 40 is MY MONEY.
2. I earn 60 and the company employing me makes a forced contribution of 40 to the government for the common good. The 40 is EVERYONE'S MONEY.
So many people seem to feel that the correct answer is number 1 whereas it is, in fact, number 2.
The debate looks different if we recognise that, don't you think?
Except it doesn't work like that does it.
You work in a job that pays 60 net, and the tax rate is 40%, so the company employing you makes a forced contribution of 40.
The government change the tax rate to 50%.
Which of the following happens?
1. The company employing you now makes a forced contribution of 60.
2. The company employing you pay you 50 net and make a forced contribution of 50.
Answer: The second scenario every time.
Starts to look like your point 1 is the correct answer.
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Unwanted @ 326
... "Starts to look like your point 1 is the correct answer" ...
Well, yes and no.
After the change, you earn 50 and your employer now contributes @ 100 pc. Not saying that's right or wrong, it's just a different way of looking at it.
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321:
So anyone who questions Gordon Brown's policies and record is a staunch Tory in your view. I have news for you. Many of his own followers who once supported him faithfully have seen the light and turned against him. On the main thrust of this thread it is an unfortunate fact that so many people now actively dislike Gordon Brown that whether he frowns or smiles he can really do no right in their eyes. One of the characteristics that annoys me most about him is his apparent lack of humility, the inability to say sorry allied to an annoying habit of blowing his own trumpet at every given opportunity (bold steps, uniquely placed etc). It tends to negate any good things he may have done and he has of course enjoyed success in some areas. You might say that he boasts about his perceived achievements because if he didn't noone else would but that's beside the point.
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Lets hope this bale out works. But if it doesnt? Is there another plan?
I really do hope we have men of vision at the very top who are meeting in secret and drawing up plans against a financial armageddon. Or have we forgotten how to conduct a war? Someone somewhere must start thinking the unthinkable.
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327. sagamix
There is third way of looking at it.
Companies dont pay the specific tax that you are talking about at all, their customers do.
Companies are mere conduits for money. when tax costs of employing people go up then so do prices to customers.
The end user almost always pays for the increase.
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Pot @ 231
... "You will note how pay in IT has tumbled since these annoying "train for a career in IT and earn a better future" ads have been on TV. you will also note that the standard of IT provision in companies has dropped in line with this occurance.
train monkeys employ them pay peanuts its great.
Then those of us that are any good at the job take early retirement and sell our services back to the dummys that are left as consultants. Its a magical system" ...
Agreed ... the free market system throws up some absurd results, doesn't it?
Great to welcome you over to the Good Guys!
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320. Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
A part of me is a screaming mad carpet chewing extremist nutter like Adolf Hitler.
We know that!
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Logica @ 302
... "All I am going to do is ask a simple question: why is it that whenever a zealous "equality campaigner" achieves high office, that person invariably seems to adopt a lifestyle and attitude contrary to all that he or she formerly believed?" ...
I'm guessing you're thinking of Labour politicians who send their kids private, would that be right?
That's hypocritical if they have previously been a campaigner for the abolition of private schools but not many have been.
Thing about this issue (aligning the personal to the public) is that it can only ever be a problem for the Left. Since politicians of the Right believe that money should be able to buy just about anything, they are free to do whatever. It's a free ride for them, isn't it?
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About six years ago I was working for several years for an Associate Director of one, if not the, largest bank / building society in this country. He then said to me that he could forsee a time when there would be no small banks in this country and it would all come under control of a few huge banks - he actually named the Bundesbank in Germany.
Well I think his prophecy may well come true but if he knew that and it was commonly known in the banking business why did not this Labour shower listen?
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One sometimes wonders what if the regulator had been left alone to just get on with what they were supposed to be doing .....
6 June 2005
FSA under fire after Blair speech
By Gavin Stamp
BBC News business reporter
The FSA is accused of being heavy-handed with its regulation
The troubled Financial Services Authority has come under fresh attack after apparent criticism by Tony Blair.
Unfavourable comments by the Prime Minister have sparked controversy at a time when the regulator is under increasing pressure.
FSA chairman Callum McCarthy has written to Mr Blair asking him to back up claims he made in a recent speech that the actions of the regulator - which oversees mortgage, pension and insurance sales - were seen to be harming well-run businesses.
Mr Blair told the Institute for Public Policy Research - in a speech entitled 'Risk and the State' - that the FSA was "seen as hugely inhibiting of efficient business by perfectly respectable companies that have never defrauded anyone".
'Damaging'
Defending the remarks, Mr Blair's office stressed he was referring to perceptions of the FSA's actions and that his sole aim was to improve regulatory performance.
Downing Street was also at pains to point out that Mr Blair was not out of step with Chancellor Gordon Brown, who was instrumental in creating the FSA after Labour's 1997 election victory and recently described its performance as 'world class'.
"The Financial Services Authority didn't just pop out of the bushes" Ned Cazalet, independent insurance analyst
However, the FSA believes the comments were damaging.
In his letter, Mr McCarthy said they harmed the regulator's ability "to support the principles of better regulation".
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322. power_to_the_ppl
To be fair here power, Browns solution to buy stock in the actual Banks has generally been seen as the best solution yet.
The tax payer stands a better chance of making a profit when things recover.
The US solution has not been regarded as that clever.
I cant tell you how much it hurt to type that and I find it awful that the only picture that I have ever seen of Brown genuinely, not falsely, enjoying himself has been taken in the last few days.
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Future @ 284
... "Being proficient in the 3R's at 11 is absolutely FUNDAMENTAL to a childs future" ...
Yes, for sure.
Leaving aside the state vs private thing, I am convinced that the key is to radically upgrade teaching as a profession. Not school buildings or facilities or systems and processes, but the TEACHERS. Turn it into a highly paid, prestige job and watch how standards improve.
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337. sagamix
Bang on the button
And get the class sizes down, thats the main reason go private.
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#327 sagamix
After the change, you earn 50 and your employer now contributes @ 100 pc. Not saying that's right or wrong, it's just a different way of looking at it.
It's certainly a different way of looking at it. Pretty well everyone else though would say that the company has a budget of 100 to spend on employing you. You get what's left after the government have taken what they want.
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I note with interest, if that's not a dirty word, that government incompetence continues unabated, viz the loss of another databse from the MoD.
They can't keep their hands on anything. Have they counted up how many banks they've got today, just in case they left one on the train?
And how many of the yet to be printed billions of trhe bank rescue package remain unused?
I suppose it'll be Oliver Twist time with the bansk next week.
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Well! - Looks out of window-
The sky hasn't fallen in.....
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Here's a thought to be going on with.
Once this financial crisis eases off, as it will, and all the major governments, economies, and people have been beggared in the process, are we going to have the political will to address climate change (which costs money) education (which will cost money) the fight against terrorism (which will cost money) providing the world with enough food (which will cost money), or will there be some form of prioritization?
I ask because our great and glorious leader won't have anything left to smile about once the smoke clears.
Please, somebody, find an old unsmiling photo of him and put it on the screen.
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Is this actual taxpayers money paying for this ostensible "lifeline" from Gordon to our banks or has he had a bridging loan from the Bundesbank?
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fairlyopenmind wrote:
I was tickled by the comment that Brown said he was angry about irresponsible bankers and didn't like the huge bonuses.
I like a bit of righteous anger.
Just find it odd that, during his decade as Chancellor, he and his mini-ministers, plus loads of advisors, hadn't spotted that an awful lot of the population were pretty teed off about the same topic.
Perhaps he felt that if he stopped the banker's big bonuses the next step would be to curb the MP's big expenses.
Personally I feel that tackling excess in the public sector comes before tackling excess in the private sector - the private sector has to answer to the markets, the public sector should answer to the people.
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Oh....it's starting to fall in The MOD has lost yet another Hardrive, This one including 100,000 Personnel details. including 60,000 Recruits.
Not bad when you consider the Army is only 140,000 strong.
I wonder who won't get sacked this time.
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#341
The classic "Nobody died" line reworked.
Presumably you don't have a pension fund that is worth considerably less than it was last week.
Presumably you don't have a deposit with a failed bank.
Presumably you have a job in a company that will be able to continue in business for ever without having to worry about its creditors.
Presumably you are not concerned about the inflationary effects of ALL governments blithely underwriting financial commitments of careless institutions.
Presumably you are the Alfred E Neuman of political thought - "What, me worry?"
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#316
Sorry to hear you're having problems posting your thoughts.
Isn't "having the smile wiped from your face" a metaphorical thing?
Would you be more confident in the leadership of Brown if, in his public appearances, he:
* Pulled his hair out
* Cried
* Bit his nails (doesn't he still do that)
* Punched walls
* Kicked doors
* Screamed with rage
* Threw his phone on the floor
* Frowned constantly
I would suspect not.
Good leadership (note I'm not implying Brown is a good one) wouldn't involve doing these things. Calmness, re-assuring, confidence would be the qualities I would look for in a leader. Not depression, despondency and panic.
BTW Is Cameron allowed to smile?
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@337
I know you didnt make the original post but does no one really see the irony in calling the 3R's the 3R's
Only one of them begins with R.
I think its a sad reflection on our teaching "profession" that has been present since this phrase was made up.
If the best our educators can do is go along with the 3R's its hardly a wonder we have a bunch of fraudulant Bankers ruining things.
We have allowed this countries standards slip and we deserve everything that we get
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@331
You wil note that EDS, one of the companies now full of the afore mentioned IT monkeys, has lost some more information.
I have worked with EDS they are known as Eds computers in the trade. I wouldnt trust them to look after my cat.
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Surely the actions which Brown is taking against Iceland is technically illegal in the eyes of International law?
I mean, if you invest in Iceland, then you have to abide by their laws; you can't jump the queue and steal the assets in your own country of anything that's Icelandic? Doesn't that violate virtually every international law in the books?
I think he's gone well over the edge here, and needs to be carted away by the men in white coats before he does any more damage. He's labeled a friendly country as a terrorist organisation, which to any reasonable person is simply insane, and most likely illegal.
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Anyone for "Capitalism collapsing under the weight of its inherent condradictions" ??
How cool was old Karl Marx, sitting in that dank and dusty library, so many years ago, working all this out.
No spreadsheets or stuff like that required.
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#344
I suspect it's the money of future taxpayers, as it's being paid for by borrowing money.
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#333 - sagamix - "Thing about this issue (aligning the personal to the public) is that it can only ever be a problem for the Left."
It's not just a problem FOR the Left, it's a problem WITH the Left, and the Left's thinking.
Since you are so concerned about education, I am sure you won't mind if I set you a little homework. Here's the assignment, in three parts:
1. Find out how many societies throughout recorded human history have been truly egalitarian.
2. In the unlikely event that you manage to identify any such societies, find out how many of them did not need to be run by a form of tyranny.
3. Finally, if you fail to complete sections #1 and #2 (within a reasonable time frame - let's say the next ten years), then please explain why you still view yourself as a left-wing extremist.
The problem with Labour (referring to a history of their movement) is that not only have they failed to "build the New Jerusalem", they don't even know how to get planning permission!
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347
Whoa Whoa! Cool your jets there!
Yes I have many of those things, and yes it is a worry, and yes I'm could be affected as could anyone else on this site, And Yes I despise the incompetencies of this Government, selling us down the river.
But I refuse to run around screaming on things that are Frankly out of my hands and if/when the sky does fall in, I will deal with each matter accordingly, as bet I can. What have you achieved by Gibbering about it? (Oh no I'm starting to sound like CEH).
Presumtion is something I try to avoid, try it, it makes you sound a lot less condesending, and a bit less MAD.
Tsk Alfred E Neuman indeed...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Scrimshanker - one who accepts neither responsibility nor work.
From the bbc Magazine pages.
Clearly the most accurate discription of Gordon Brown EVER
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Just seen the NON job of the week straight from the Guardian for Tower Hamlets council:
“Hate Crime Policy and Partnership Manager
£39,738 - £42,231
They are seeking a committed manager to further develop a hate crime strategy. You will have a clear vision for building a coordinated response to all forms of hate crime
Form an orderly queue now, no pushing.
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Pusillanimous (lacking in courage or strength of purpose) just sounds funny and derisive and insulting.
Sinecure - a position or office that requires little or no work but provides a salary.
kakistocracy. Definition: The government of a state by the worst citizens.
Rodomontade meaning boastful
Slubberdegullion meaning, roughly ,a worthless person
Just a few others that Gordon clearly knows the meaning of
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Carrots
You are right about the image above looks like the Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath Gurning Champion to me...
Either that or he's trying to lay an egg.
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349 Balhamu
You forgot that our great leader and noble world statesman likes to pick his nose and eat it when sat behind Tony Blair at PM questions.
Smiling is fine - I just find it sordid that Gordon is enjoying a temporary up swing, because he has been part of the problem we are currently facing.
He is posing as the solution - unfortunately a large proportion of the public are gullible - and don't know just how much worse Gordon Brown has made their day to day lives - and how G.Brown's actions have ensured that this 'bust' will be harder, deeper and longer to escape.
So when I see Gordon smiling at his good fortune to have a crisis to divert people's attention away from sacking him - it makes me feel sick.
Just think about one issue (among many) and one group in society........ the poor... who Gordon was happy to sting with the 10p tax swindle at a time of rising cost of living. The man warrants deporting not supporting.
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#353
That's the problem - Karl Marx - he was sitting in his dusty library - out of sight of reality; without understanding of real issues.
A bit like me......although the latest data loss suddenly has my attention!
Incompetence is infectious under the Labour party....have you noticed that?
What is disturbing, and blow all the hallooing about the stats and the figures - for once, Gordon Brown feels in control (because he is a money man and these are money problems) and he looks relieved, fulfilled, relaxed and with the weight lifted from his shoulders. He clearly thinks the zeitgeist is with him at this stage. Beggar everyone else staring into the void!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Back in the nineties when Nu-labour was being formulated in the bowels of hell they heard of this thing Conservatives called the free market economy, they decided that this sounded good and and it then became a buzz word and mantra.
Unfortunately they had no understanding of what a Free Market economy was, it was just words but that did not matter as their Spin doctors had lots of words they did not understand but used freely.
So here we are today with Brown and Darling putting forward mesianic solutions beyond their kin to save the world economy when they have never really understood our own.
And as for using Terrorism Legislation against a friendly Nation has our government completely lost the plot?
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Tom McPhail, head of pensions research at Hargreaves Lansdown, says that those buying an annuity now will have an annual sum until death that is 15% less than it would have been a month ago.
Surely this doesn't have to be the case. Any fund manager worth his salt should have been pulling funds at the top of the market as if it was going out of fashion. And surely that is the reason that the markets continue to fall as the less good fund managers catch up and pull their funds.
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299 ppl
I think that you do your relative an injustice, if he has to sit down and
have dinner and drinks with you for a couple of hours, then it comes as no surprise to me that he forgets peoples names and rambles on about the thirties,
He's probably trying to bring you down from that strange world that you think you live in.
He probably thinks like me that your humour is a little manic at times and being in close proximity he has to be careful, if he were to express any wit or intelligence you would probably have him referred to the moderaters as well.
you say
"If only you did something useful with your talent!"
I fortunately have many talents and made full use of them.
Whereas you have only one, at least you think you have one, and you make very poor use of that.
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Logica @ 355 asks Sagamix:
..."Since you are so concerned about education, I am sure you won't mind if I set you a little homework. Here's the assignment, in three parts:
1. Find out how many societies throughout recorded human history have been truly egalitarian.
2. In the unlikely event that you manage to identify any such societies, find out how many of them did not need to be run by a form of tyranny.
3. Finally, if you fail to complete sections #1 and #2 (within a reasonable time frame - let's say the next ten years), then please explain why you still view yourself as a left-wing extremist" ...
and Sagamix now answers as below:
1. Not nearly enough
2. Tyranny crosses the political spectrum
3. Clear thinking progressive, I prefer!
I think we've gone and got our wires tangled, you and I ... equality of opportunity is what I'm mainly talking about NOT equality of outcome. The latter I would like to see more of, certainly, but not pushed to the absurd conclusion of complete uniformity with everybody getting exactly the same, regardless of who they are or what they do. So if that's what you're driving at then, yes, I agree with you that it would require (and therefore lead to) some form of state tyranny. Not good. Bad even. Don't support such a concept.
I do find it a bit odd that my relatively mild suggestion of education to be wholly public sector, rather than the current mess which works for nobody, should send you down that route. It's a bit like you saying to me you support expanding the private sector and me then coming back with analogies to the Pinochet regime and the like.
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305 Charles E Hardwidge,
If as it seems you were reluctant to answer my post, and the inferrence was that I was taking the thread of course when in fact I was responding to what I perceived as a unpleasant remark, it was then picked up by another who turned it into a debate in which I took part and still am .it seems to you chagrin.
However perhaps your can tell me how the debate that you have taken quite a active part, Bob Crows salary has got anything whatsoever to do with the thread,
"At least Gordons smiling "or am I missing something.
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@363
There in lies part of the problem GB thinks he is a money man.
He isnt! Never was, Never will be.
"Humour is a psychological coping mechanism, it helps us to cope with difficulties," explains chartered psychologist Mike Lowis.
"It helps particularly with difficulties that we can't do much about, or ones we can't solve."
So now we know why he cracked that joke the other night! he cont solve the problem
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More socialism gone mad
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#359
Hate crime?
Doesn't exist.
Political correctness gone made I tell you.
Protect the rights of people to abuse disabled people, ethnic minorities, minority religious groups and homosexuals.
Tower Hamlets wants to take these rights away from people. You couldn't make it up.
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361. HarryPagetFlashman
Harry
I cant say what i thought he was doing.
The mods would nuke the comment.
:-)
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gordon brown reminds me of a realy good friend of mine from the past. NERO you know the roman dictator that fiddled whilst rome burned, well gordon has the same manic look and is happy that people are loosing every thing.
but sadly whilst i think it funny or should i say disturbingly funny that he laughs whilst our ecconomy burns i can only wonder why he is laughing, is it becouse the government has salted away millions of pounds in overseas banking systems, or is it becouse his returning mandelson to cabinet gives him a better government, or could it be like with homer simpson his brain just goes D'oh.
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Meanwhile, whilst Gordon Brown is away on planet Credit Crunch, Brown's Britain continues pretty much as ever ........
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Kat @ 363
... "That's the problem - Karl Marx - he was sitting in his dusty library - out of sight of reality; without understanding of real issues" ...
Ah but I think you see things more clearly when you are not a part of them. I mean, look at me ... I've been involved in hardly anything of note and yet I understand more or less everything!
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#371 - Carrots.... - "More socialism gone mad"
Forgive me for my technological ignorance, but how do you set up these links on this blog?
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#359
Got referred before for sarcasm (the lowest form of wit of course!).
So, trying to prevent hate crime and managing the partnership of different stakeholders (police, community etc) is a non-job is it?
Is this because:
1) Hate crime does not exist and it is something that has been made up by politically-correct socialists (seems unlikely - would you argue that e.g. 7/7 bombings and other attempted terrorists acts, vandalisation of mosques, desecration of Jewish cemetaries etc are unmotivated by hate towards different groups of societies)
2) We should have no strategy to deal with hate crime - keep on tackling the symptoms of it in the same way we tackle non-hate crime (again, seems unlikely. These crimes are caused by people's attitudes and changing those attitudes should lead to a reduction in said crime)
Do tell.
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#362
So, you really believe that Brown is relishing the coming economic downturn. He is happy that he has had to drive a cart and horses through his sustainable borrowing rule? That many people, fairly or unfairly, will blame his government for this?
Doesn't seem plausible to me.
I go back to my point on "what is the appropriate crisis demeanour". Do tell me. You've evaded the question several times now. What facial expressions/emotional responses are banned?
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Do the government still expect us to believe that we'll be perfectly OK with their 42 day thing, because they would never, ever dream of using anti-terrorist legislation in any circumstances other than a clear and present terrorist threat????
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Nick
You never learn.
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Nick,
our wonderful Gordon, nor any other commentator must be allowed to get away saying that the banks are going to be bailed out by the government by buying shares, and having a stake.
These are not shares, as we know it, they are preference shares, and that is totally different. Preference shares with no voting rights attached. The worst of all worlds.
If you had direct shareholdings then you are the lowest of the low if the organisation goes bust. So shareholders lose out. No problem. However, they can prevent this happening by having votes, they can decide the dividend policy, they can vote against huge remuneration packages, they can sack the board if they so wish to do. They have power, even if they don't use it. It is there.
However, what the government is proposing is that the taxpayer puts money in, but has neither power, nor responsibility, they may have influence but we all know that can be a double edged sword.
The government, if it is to put money in , then it has to have direct control, anything less is an absolute travesty. I know that this may result in mistakes being made by whoever is in charge will be able to blame government interference, but they could resign if they don't like it. I would say that an honourable person would resign, without compensation, but that would invlove being principled.
In the meantime, all they may say is that I was just following orders, just like the soldiers of a certain country which committed atrocities and the people below the leader pleaded their innocence on the basis that were just following orders. Well, I think that it is time for people to stand up and be counted, no investment without representation.
It is no wonder that Stock Markets throughout the world are collapsing, this is 1928, not 1929, just wait until next year, when everybody will be told you should have sold last year whilst you had the chance, at least there were some idiots who would have bought your shares, now everybody can see how stupid you were to hold on.
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"Everyone at Westminster has noticed that he's grown in confidence and stature during this crisis."
Nick, this is biased!! And it's not true!!
He has just become "cocky" - that's all.
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#359
With any luck, the money to pay the salary for that non-job is on deposit with a bank in Iceland.
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Nick,
I hope that you will give me the benefit of the doubt on this one, but this is a copy of a posting i put on my own blog in September, 2007. Note 2007, not like the johnny come latelies, so some of us did know, we did understand, only we were not listened to. I am just so angry, I hope that you and the moderators will allow this posting, not all of us were reckless, my blog follows:-
now I don't want to add to the panic over failing banks but should we really believe what we are being told by these, so called, experts, and this includes government ministers and economists. One of the essentials of banking is that you never, never, borrow short and lend long because the rates of interest on short term loans will get very expensive as soon as competitors understand how stupid you have been.Now, when executives and the boards of companies make mistakes then they should pay for it with their jobs, and definitely no compensation. The same unfortunately goes for employees because unfortunate though it may be they, like our soldiers in foreign places, did as they were told, that is they followed orders, even though they knew, if they had any education at all, that what they were doing would fail. Remember, ignorance is no defence.So, just like when we were told that Equitable Life was no problem, trust us we are experts, we are being told to keep our money in the bank, everything is great. Well do some research and find out who were the ones who transferred their money out of Equitable Life just before the court judgement went against it that caused the collapse! OK I will save you the trouble, yes it was the member of Parliaments Pension Scheme! Why, now we are being told that the present situation was known to the government for six weeks before we were told that Northern Rock was safe. I wonder who could possibly have taken their money out before the general public became aware.
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315 the bulldog breed,
You call me a whinger and then you proceed to tell about your 22 years service
and how lucky you were to come out alive,
I take it you volunteered to become whatever you became, did you? or did some one force you into it? I have a brother who served in the armed forces for twenty five years, only the first three years of that were forced the rest he volunteered for, he will tell you he has had a good life and has travelled all over the world and retired with a nice pension, I guess he's lucky to have come out alive as well but he doesn't whinge about it, it was his choice as it was yours.
There are countless thousands of people being killed through wars throughout the World on a daily basis, they didn't volunteer, many of them struggled to survive, and lost their lives
So please dont play that card. no one has more admiration for the armed forces than I,
I think that they do a wonderful job and thank God that their there for us.
if as you say you served for 22 years then I guess most of it you served under a Tory government, and probably served in the falklands which could easily have been avoided, you call me a armchair general well I can assure you I am not I know nothing of war other than having been unwillingly involved in it.
The war in question I do know a little about
you see what you are not aware of and neither are many others I know because I was working alongside the people involved,
You see the Antartic supply and research vessels the "Discovery" the "Shackleton and one or two others were always provisioned at the depot in Barry docks South Wales and the information was rife for a year or two that Argentina was going to occupy the falklands they were already well establised on South Georgia and had been for some time, which you could confirm by reading"Icebird" by Dr David Lewis,
but as I say it was common knowledge and Margeret Thatcher was informed of the situation more than once by the skippers of these vessels, and did nothing.
Now if you call that being a armchair general then its a pity that some Tory MPs weren't armchair generals and maybe there would be a lot more young men from both sides alive today.
Further to that old chum the term Bulldog breed refers to the people of the UK not just the services and as you say you are not aware of who has and who has and who hasn't been in the forces.
Whatever they taught you in the forces it wasn' courtesy was it?
You say
"you ridiculous breakfast table General."
well I guess if I am thats a damn sight closer to becoming a general than you were ever likely to be with your barrack room language.
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On last night's 10 O Clock news Nick interviewed Gordon Brown on a train. During the interview Brown said the UK had no debt; or did I mishear this?
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377. logica_sine_vanitate
Browedov is our resident expert, check his posts he has a page of info on the editors
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/profile/?userid=12508774
Check out his posts on October 9th
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@380
Here here!
I said it at the time that they would use the legislation inappropriately
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I think in a spirit of Friday afternoon we should have a Private Eye style caption competition.
I'll go first...
voice off "what about bringing Mandelson back?"
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Looking through the various postings on here I find it difficult to decide what criteria the moderators use when withdrawing positings, like my innocuous little piece earlier.
Still I know I'm not alone in this.
Further, as DisgustedofMitcham has noticed, the anti-terrorism laws have been used to retain a busted Icelandic bank's assets. Would these be the same terror laws, I wonder, that are insufficient for their intended use, which is why Lucky is going to try and force 42 days down our throats again next week?
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378. At 1:10pm on 10 Oct 2008, balhamu wrote:
Yes it is a total non job at council level.
No and No to you numbered questions.
Re do tell.... OK
This is a job for the police, not one for some petty local authority, numskull, bureaucratic, wet lettuce at town hall to puzzel over.
Total waste of money.
Use it to buy another copper.
Keep the sarcasm coming though, dont let the mods get you down.
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#380 DisgustedOfMitcham2
Do the government still expect us to believe that we'll be perfectly OK with their 42 day thing, because they would never, ever dream of using anti-terrorist legislation in any circumstances other than a clear and present terrorist threat????
This government use legislation outside of its intended target area? Don't make me laugh, they would never dream of doing such a thing.
Hang on, what have I been saying? Don't worry folks, I was up there on planet Hogwash with Chuck and his New labour apologists pals for a while, but I'm all right now.
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317 Dhwilkinson,
I have no desire to fight with CEH but this is the second time that he has remonstrated with me over my posts ,I might agree with him on many things but he is not my mentor and never likely to be, it is he that is causing disruption not I, all I ask is that he doesn't interfere with me, thus leaving chinks in our armour.
Get it right my friend I dont interfere with him he interfere's with me. it was suggested that he had me moderated because I strayed from the thread, I asked him if he had and he declined to answer.
read 369.
I am afraid the choice of the argument that I am following was thrust upon me, I have dealt with this subject before and had no wish to return, but needs must I'm afraid.
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If folks stick to the topic and play nice there aren't many problems. But, there's a lot of arguing and negativity around here. It's what some folks would call "low bandwidth" discussion.
You tend to start barfights and that creates a lot of collatoral damage, and some folks have got it into their heads to pepper me with a bunch of unprovocked personal comments. I refered a whole chunk of that to the moderators to clean the place up. It's just not stuff you want left lying around.
Thread hijacks and natural wobble are different beasts, and different people attract different types of response. It's a judgement call. That requires some awareness and self-awareness. Also, when people have run out of stuff to say topics tend to generate a ragged end of arguing and namecalling.
Not saying I'm perfect or anything but I've been around this stuff for years. I know what works and where the trouble comes from. I've tried to explain these things before but nobody listens or starts screaming about me thinking I'm "better" than them, and stuff like that. Then it goes tits up and they turn out to be the worst offenders, and wander off to find more "fun" when the place has died.
To some degree this blog and discussion is a microcosm of the same issues the Prime Minister has to deal with. You could substitute Nick and the moderators for, say, the banks and regulators, and the folks in here for the customers. They're both about leadership, regulation, and markets. All the same faults and failings, stock movements, and trends apply to both.
It's not my blog nor am I a moderator, so I tend to keep cool about stuff like this as it doesn't solve anything and just gets me into trouble: it's that old blame the victim thing. But, folks may wish to reflect on things and see if they could make better choices.
Zen has a lot to say about both but nobody listens. It's too simple and obvious: the elephant in the room, and all that jazz.
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That would be fine apart from one small fact: government control of the banks would bust the rules and mean the banks couldn't trade.
I sometimes think that we're reading different media by the way some folks facts totally contradict other folks facts.
Handling chaos badly leads to affairs like the De Menzies shooting. Folks might want to reflect on that "calm" thing I keep banging on about.
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Pot @ 370
"There in lies part of the problem GB thinks he is a money man.
He isnt! Never was, Never will be."
Agree entirely - it is his view that he is the master of money, not mine!
Saga @ 376
"Ah but I think you see things more clearly when you are not a part of them. I mean, look at me ... I've been involved in hardly anything of note and yet I understand more or less everything!"
Well, I sense some irony in your comment. I have some involvement at the "pointy" end of political decisions....I, rather sadly, do get the impression that the Govt does not feel the need to be accountable for its decisions if they can hide it. I hate the term "a week is a long time in politics". It gives the impression that a politician just needs to wait a little to weather a storm - until the public or the fickle media are bored. That is no way to lead/govern/command, but I fear it is what we have got.
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Anyone else noticed that the DD clones seem to have given up?
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379 Balhmu
er............. the economic crisis is already here....... hadn't you noticed?
The economic golden rule..... what a laugh... he'd already spent every penny and was on the limits of the self imposed 'golden rule'. I think he went over the limits he defined by trying to by the Crewe and Nantwich election - remember that....??
The golden rule is artificial - but the great leader spent our cash in the good times right up to the limits - without leaving any ceiling in his limit for potential bad times.
Of course he has had to spend far, far more on these bail out plans than any real sensible planning and 'prudence' would have allowed during normal times.... but that begs another question doesn't it...??
£500bn - it buys nothing - but the intention of the money is to buy 'confidence in the market'. A quick check of the news today shows that confidence has not been bought yet - so maybe the price of 'confidence' is higher??
I don't think the price of 'market confidence' is higher than £500Bn. If Brown had any credibility as a leader and had been leading the country from the front, rather than plotting against other Labour plotters in the bunker - and dithering on the big questions...... then the price of confidence would have been a lot cheaper. Far less than £500Bn.
I suspect that once the next US president is elected (is it about a month away?) - that confidence will begin to be restored in the US markets. Clearly G.W. Bush is a 'market confidence liability' (just like Brown in the UK).
As for crisis demeanour - I haven't evaded the question - it is just a pointless question. The obvious answer to your question is 'election now please' - if both the US and UK get rid of our failed leaders and replace them with credible people - confidence in the market will return (and far more cheaply than the billions splurged by Bush and Brown).
For the idiot in charge of the UK - if we can't get rid of him until 2010 - and we are forced to to the ridiculous level of debate as to define what demeanour he should carry until he is booted out - well he'd do better acting like a real leader in a crisis. A suitable role model might be Winston Churchill.
For instance........... I don't remember, during a major global crisis, Winston Churchill looking like a bitten fingered, shambling depressed wreck, who crept out from the bunker once a month to tell us he was getting on with the job (in fact - pointless trvia time. he was outside the bunker during air raids and watching them from the roof).
On the occaisions that there was good news, despite all hell breaking out around him, I don't remember any photos of Churchil braying like an ass? Unless you can point me to some?
A leader inspires confidence. Gordon is not a leader - he is a man who is trying to cling to power. He is currently pleased and smiling a lot because he has beaten the plotters in the Labour party (he has nothing to smile about the way he is running this country).
Election now please.
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Nick,
Brown has a lot to be happy about, starting with his taxpayer funded salary, golden pension, perks and protection from unhappy taxpayers. If you can point to the bit that states he loses part or all of the above due to incompetence, incontinence (with our money), or any other failure on his part, please let me know. We may then be able to wipe that smug grin off his face. Until then, don't expect GB to become any more bearable. Oh and by the way, that hand that keeps dipping into your wallet is Gordon's.
Cheers.
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TAG @ 385
... "this is a copy of a posting i put on my own blog in September, 2007. Note 2007, not like the johnny come latelies, so some of us did know, we did understand, only we were not listened to" ...
That's prescient, Sep 07, I grant you that but it's still about a century and a half after Karl.
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#392
Doesn't it depend on the type of interventions that are appropriate?
Hate crime is due to attitudes towards a particular minority group. How would you suggest that the police, on their own, work to target these attitudes?
Surely, if they were to be effectual, they would have to involve a large number of stakeholders in long-term work.
e.g.
* Schools (e.g. tackling negative attitudes from an early age)
* Youth clubs (e.g. encouraging different groups of children to mix together)
* Religious leaders (e.g. tackling extremist attitudes that can be prevalent in mosques)
* Housing officers (e.g. allocation of social housing is a key factor in negative attitudes)
* The criminal punishment system (e.g. working with offenders early to try and combat attitudes)
* The police (e.g. in ways of tackling hate crime in the short-run)
The question becomes who is best placed to do this work. The police are more suited to direct, short-term interventions to tackle crime. Other arms of government to longer-term attitudes to tackle the causes of crime.
It is not a non-job (you say that the tasks that the person who does this job would do should happen).
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The biggest problem with state education at the moment is too much government interference. Teachers are told what to teach and too often have not the time to do the job properly because of all the form filling. This is the one benefit of fee paying schools - they can make their own rules and end up with young people who can think independently and out of the box.
Would the Swedish model address this?
And why is Gordon Brown laughing - well, having got us into this mess, he might as well try and laugh his way out of it, otherwise he will be crying with the rest.
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Anyone fancy a chat about how disastrous it would be if the BTP were to win the next (or any) election? ...
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395 Charles _E_Hardwidge
Charles - do you ever think that you are the root cause for much of the problem you describe?
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What I find hard to believe is GB and AD think that the tax payers have little risk in the action they are taking.
At the end of the day the tax payers will be the only ones who pay.
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Oh Gordon! Are you real, first it was the entire Americans fault, now its Iceland’s fault our councils put our money in their banks. Is no-one accountable for anything in this country?
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359# CarrotsNeedsQuango2 wrote:
Just seen the NON job of the week straight from the Guardian for Tower Hamlets council:
“Hate Crime Policy and Partnership Manager
£39,738 - £42,231
They are seeking a committed manager to further develop a hate crime strategy. You will have a clear vision for building a coordinated response to all forms of hate crime
Form an orderly queue now, no pushing.
..................................................
So that's a non job because:
1) Hate crime doesnt exist?
2) Hate crime does exist but who cares?
3) Hate crime exists but we think its a good thing?
Or just predictable "PC gone mad" whining?
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nice to hear gordon brown's off the cuff theory (my word) on how hes helping us all with the price of fuel;
"we have been working to get the price of fuel down, and have had some success but there is still a long way to go...."
- thats why the current pump price, in comparison to the price of a barrel remains almost 30p a litre higher now, than it was when it last cost 82 dollars a barrel is it?
- thats why the tax burden placed on the price of fuel remains uncut?
exactly what has gordon brown actually done in regard getting prices down?
flippant remarks about how hes had some success' but more needs to be done, sum him up perfectly, hes a spin artist!
in the mean time we have the BBC announcing yet another "supermarket price war" wow not a whole 3p of a litre of fuel?
why does he talk of serious matters, yet every 30 seconds or so, a kind of subliminal message smile appears on his face, then disappears again?
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I would like to refer to a post on an earlier blog: 42-days is dead. This is #44 contributed by a certain Mr Hardwidge:
"The 42 days detention bill is similar in nature, and is intended to deal with what geeks would call an "edge case". You don't wear a seatbelt because you plan on crashing your car, nor fit an alarm because you plan on getting your house burgled. This bill is no different. It's just a specialist tool for a specialist requirement. It's an insurance policy against a small but very real and nasty possibility."
There then followed an intelligent response by denzil69 - message #142: "Sir I see where you are coming from, to me, it appears you trust the government more than they trust each and everyone of us. as weve seen with other measures ie, speed cameras, congestion charges, transfer of housing stock to public/private partnerships, etc, what at face value appears a "specialised measure," serving a particular purpose, when brought in, almost always is used for another purpose."
Now, who has been proven right in this debate?
Here's a clue: yesterday the Icelandic PM complained about the British government's use of anti-terror legislation.
Sorry, there was a mistake in the last sentence I wrote. It should read "...about the British government's ABUSE of anti-terror legislation."
So certain bloggers (who shall remain nameless) can say whatever they like, but I urge everyone to LOOK AT THE FACTS.
Can we trust our government with terror legislation?
I'll leave the reader to answer that question.
And the chilling question is: where will it all end?
Perhaps Mr Brown knows, and that's why he's smirking...
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THE TRUTH ABOUT WHY HIS IS SO HAPPY
AS PRESENTED BY THE BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/the_daily_politics/7663563.stm
Aparantly he compulsivly repeats old harming behavour, and cheers himself up by spending - often beyond his means.
Be afraid - be very afraid.
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Was Gordon smiling because he knew that he was just about to declare war on Iceland?
I was joking before when I said that his next words would be "Kneel before Zod" (posting 9), but now that doesn't seem quite so far-fetched.
Hasn't he been sectioned yet? If I were his doctor I'd have got sectioned him by now.
Not content with destroying our economy, he's now started to destroy what little international credibility we have left, launched a war on one of our friendly neighbours, and has turned us into a developed-world version of Zimbabwe.
When your unelected PM classes a friendly neighbouring country as a terrorist organisation and threatens to turn pirate on them, then you know we're in very very serious trouble.
He's totally lost it; he should be locked up.
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I read stuff like this and I just see hate. Lack of perspective tends to do that in people and it's not a good path to go down. Heck, I "hate" Thatcherism but don't go that far with the Tories nor pull some of the low blows I've seen people come out with.
The internet tends to magnify things and people can get sucked into that, but none of it's real.
I've banged on about the economic fundamentals, leadership, communication, and so forth and it's like I'm talking to a brick wall. Some people are so hooked on "winning" they try to force the shares in their opinions way, way above market value and no amount of fact or market sentiment seems to penetrate their minds.
I just have a point of view and nobody is going to game that by disrupting or upsetting me. It's just not gonna happen, and Nick, politicians, or media are no different. In fact, pushing too hard just makes people tune out.
Gordon Brown has been under a massive assulat for the past year. The fact that he's getting on top of the economic issues and clawing back some positive reputation would make anyone happy. I can't begrudge anyone that because the world's bad enough as it is, and in times like this spreading a little happiness is no bad thing.
It's cheap and easy to make negative low punches. A lot of folks clawing their way to power in the boardroom pull strokes like that. You know, those power obsessed people with telephone number bonuses? So, you claim you want "better" but your own actions are just aping the failed fatcats you claim you're railing against. This is why "revolutions" don't work.
I'm more concerned about me and what I can do, and at the moment the best thing I can do is just be happy. It's all those unhappy financiers, businessmen, and media who are tearing themselves apart and making things worse for themselves. If I wasn't reading about that I probably wouldn't even know there was a recession on.
Simon Jenkins writes a good comment on taking to the mountains when there's trouble. Folks may like to read that and reflect on connecting with reality and calming down. It might not "solve" anything but you'll be happier for it.
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404 Sagamix
BTP = British Transport Police? Are they standing? Couldn't do any worse than Labour I suppose.
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JCook @ 399
... "A suitable role model might be Winston Churchill" ...
Hang on, he was drunk most of the time, wasn't he?
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#386
What a vitriolic little pecksniff you are! I have just read through everything you have written, and have never on this blog read such bile ridden garbage.
Such condescending statements you make on people you know nothing about!
You should be ashamed of yourself!
Yet you are the first I have notices to whistle uncle when people dare to criticise you. It amazes me you accuse people of no manners and yet have none yourself.
Are you somebody?
Or just the same as the rest of us?
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395. Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
.
You tend to start barfights and that creates a lot of collatoral damage, and some folks have got it into their heads to pepper me with a bunch of unprovocked personal comments. I refered a whole chunk of that to the moderators to clean the place up. It's just not stuff you want left lying around.
I was right! Suspected this troll was the creep spitefully referring anybody who offended its ego. My response will be to never refer to said troll again. If it is ignored, and its comments go without others replying, it will render it impotent and useless. It will become frustrated and seek pastures new.
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grandantidote.
Maybe you should consider your position if you don't get on with your 'comrades'.
For a lefty to complain that they don't want interferance from others is too funny for words.
The left (and socialism) is founded on the very principal that those who think they are right get to interfere in everyone elses business.
Maybe CEH picked on you because as a fellow lefty he thought you would be a willing victim.
I respect other peoples right to privacy and to act with out interference - and I demand the same of others towards me -- ESPECAIlLY THE STATE -- almost nothing is any of their business.
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Of course he's smiling - he's never done a real job in his life, and has a nice pension to look forward to.
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408 Nottinghill Hammer and 359 Carrots
I wonder what the difference is between:
'Hate Crime' and a 'Non Hate Crime'??
Do they also employ a 'Non-Hate Crime Policy and Partnership Manager'
At what point does a crime become hateful?
If I drive by a speed camera 5 mph over the speed limit, have I committed a 'hate crime' against pedestrians - or am I just a tax opportunity?
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408. The Notting Hill Hammer wrote
No its 4. see 392
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It was fine here before a bunch of people arrived a few months ago that just argued and namecalled, so no. I used to happily acknowledge folks opinions and cut them slack but the "competitive" posters want to own the whole cake, and they just diss stuff and hurl abuse from behind a wall of anonymity to achieve that. The way the opposition and media have behaved over the past year is pretty much the same.
Over the past few months number of lies and emotionalism in here has been off the dial. Some of that is because folks misunderstand things, some of it deliberate, and some of it is just bandwagon. It's clamed down a lot but enough of those issues remain for this blog to hover in low bandwidth territory. As folks develop a clearer view and more maturity this may improve further. But, that depends on what Nick writes, moderation, and peoples choices.
I tend to prefer conversation and indirectness rather the the debate and bullish approach typical of the Anglo-Saxon mentality that you see in politics, the media, and society. Some folks don't grok that. Americans and Japanese tend to get it more but they have a more developed sense of confidence and teamwork, achievement and the the long-term. British culture has issues which is why the broken economic fundamentals are so resistant to change but change they must if Britain (and this blog) is to be successful.
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404. sagamix
I ll play. But you start by telling us how much worse things can get.
Also follow the link at 371.
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You neglected to mention the agreement that the trigger mechanism for the 42 days law could be better drafted and the procerdural stuff for activating it could be made usuable if this improvement was made.
Really, this stuff is from a previous topic so has nothing to do with this one, and your conclusions are based on an incomplete view, so what's your motivation for bringing it up? I guess, you just want to look clever by making me look stupid.
On the use of terrorist legislation: Gordon Brown has said he will do "whatever it takes" and he's been making massive efforts to do so in a cooperative way. Iceland has iffy finances and pulled a stroke, so giving them a slap to get with the programme looks like a good move.
You're just trolling for selfish gain and giving yourself a pat on the back for it, and have done since the day you first arrived here. I think, both Gordon's motives and my own have the moral high ground so you might want to rethink that approach, buddy. Add some value that stands on its own feet instead of trying to pull a Cameron.
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If UK does go to war with Iceland, they will lose. All the Icelanders have to do is ring round the armed forces and tell them not to bother. They can get the details from the hard disk the MOD has mislaid. READ ALL ABOUT IT!
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#410
Quite right - totally agree.
I thought that Acts of Parliament have to be used in the way that Parliament intended them to be when they were passed, otherwise decisions were open to judicial review. Maybe I'm wrong - but that is a good principle to follow (would also stop local authorities from using anti-terrorist legislation for snooping on e.g. litter louts).
Difficult situation though. The alternative was not freeze the assets and allow Iceland to asset-strip its UK businesses. Wasn't there a bit of an uproar (at least in London) of Lehman Bros doing precisely this in extracting money from London to New York.
I understand why the Government did what they did. But they still shouldn't have done it.
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402. balhamu
Hate crime is due to attitudes towards a particular minority group. How would you suggest that the police, on their own, work to target these attitudes?
I would suggest that they track the offenders down by using robust policing methods, like being on the street and investigating and zero tolerance. I would then suggest that the courts issue give them a good long stretch and I would also suggest that Jack straw does not let them out on early release.
Just a thought though.
My local authority cant even empty my bin properly each week. How effective do you think they will be at dealing with hate crime?
Use the money to pay for another copper.
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#410
Quite right - totally agree.
I thought that Acts of Parliament have to be used in the way that Parliament intended them to be when they were passed, otherwise decisions were open to judicial review. Maybe I'm wrong - but that is a good principle to follow (would also stop local authorities from using anti-terrorist legislation for snooping on e.g. litter louts).
Difficult situation though. The alternative was not freeze the assets and allow Iceland to asset-strip its UK businesses. Wasn't there a bit of an uproar (at least in London) when Lehman Bros asset-stripped their UK operations by extracting money from London to New York.
I understand why the Government did what they did. But they still shouldn't have done it.
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394 Grandantidote
Meant no offence. Just trying to say be careful not to get sucked into these endless conversations that go nowhere with the likes of Power to the people .
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408
How to asserbate hate crime?
Invade a mulsim Country with no clear mandate and expect your own muslim populace to applaude it.
No one is denying it exists, but do we really need someone to spell it out?
My biggest problem with the current government, is thier constant desire to tell us what to do.
The vast majority what ever colour or creed, do not wish to upset the status quo and are all law abiding citizens.
It is the constant blanket blame and overwatch that gets everyones back up.
We have had muslim extremists comitting terrorist acts, what is the government response.
Body search everyone who goes through an air terminal, including pensioners taking thier shoes of incase they are hiding that elusive IED.
No I'm sorry, a great deal of race crime Black or white can already be identified (I hate to say it) by generic stereo types.
It isn't 70 year old white anglo-saxon women who are plotting suicide attacks, the stereo type is (generically) Young asian men aged 15 - 40. Its sad but there it is. This is due to them having close affiliation with thier historic origins or being convinced that a direct attack on thier beliefs and culture, retribution is the correct response.
On a different slant, a white racist attack on someone from an ethnic background, can be sifted down to small groups (remember the gang who killed Steven Laurence were identified as potentials before he was murdered).
The bottom line is we need no stratergy, we need people where they are exposed to such elements, be it schools, or were ever to be given the support to address them, we do not need yet another directive to follow.
If someone is committing a hate crime then watch out.
The big concern is when you get someone to run these dubious organisations, you tend to end up with overkill and see it everywhere.
People (no matter how good and true they think they are) are all prejudice. Prejudice is not hate!
That is the slippery slope we have all traveled since the 60's
This work on two unfortunate levels.
1. Due to the claims direct generation, we are teaching people to be offended by everything and when that happens there is a blame and probably a cheque.
Has made in to a nation of cry babies.
2. The second and maybe more unsettling one is who audits the auditers. If we go down the Health and Safety madness route and see evil in everything, and start at shadows, I'm not convinced any local authority can claim many deaths from Conkers and yet they are still banned in school in my area.
Its the power trip thing I worry about I would much prefer, people applying comon sense and decency and more policing in troubled areas. Than any one person looking at yet another local authority defacto job.
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413 - CEH
You assume I'm not happy. I'm perfectly happy and relaxed.
I'll be even happier and more relaxed once the world has rid itself of Bush and Brown as leaders.
I'm not, however, just going to sit here and lull myself into a false sense of 'delight' until they have gone.
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Trying to wade past comments from that Hardwicke is one hell of a chore. Does anybody actually read them?! Must have a lot of time on his hands.
Some good posts from others. Particularly interesting the hyperlink about Brown on today's BBC2 Politics show. Yes he is smiling more.
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415 Sagamix
On the whole I understand he drank watered down spirits.
So what if he was drunk a few times - I think overall he did a pretty good job .
Last time I remember seeing photos of a Labour politician partying it was the Deputy PM John Prescott
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4945170.stm
Dignified.......
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Beware all those who think the Conservatives have the election in the bag.
The longer this crisis continues the better Gordon Brown will do in the polls, mark my words. See in several months time how the lead has ebbed away as national crisis takes over and there is no need for an official opposition.
Cameron hopes this will be all over far sooner than Brown, as this 'near disaster' is the only way Brown could possibly win the next election - no wonder he's smiling!
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JCook @ 414
... "BTP = British Transport Police?" ...
No, not that BTP (c'mon honestly!). The official "Bash The Proles" BTP is who I mean.
I don't like them much, quite frankly.
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So it's more important what a politician looks like rather than what he does?
Our media seem to be lowering the tone to a child-like level.
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The Real Truth @ 418
... "The left (and socialism) is founded on the very principal that those who think they are right get to interfere in everyone else's business" ...
No, that's wrong and false and not even right.
You are offending against your handle for the umpteenth time ... when are we going to see it changed as was agreed the other week?
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399 jonathan cook
referenced by charles e hardwidge@413
Re: comparing Brown negatively against Winston Churchill.
The difference seems to be that Winston Churchill was a war time leader. So People naturally rallied round him. Also he was only seen by most people in the cinema newsreels and heard on the radio probably in edited form for propaganda. Not in 24 hour live news media. With mischevious political commentators. I think the comparison is unfair. How would Churchill survive under this kind of media environment I wonder? or even a non wartime environment.
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The government was warned about the possible collapse of Icelandic banks in July but did nothing about it, a Lib Dem Treasury spokesman has said.
Lord Oakeshott said he raised the issue in a written question to a minister.
He was told the Financial Services Authority was monitoring the situation and there was no cause for concern.
"Alarm bells were ringing all over about the Icelandic banks and the Treasury must have been blind and deaf not to hear them," said the peer.
Whoops!
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This isn't the first time that Brown's joy at inappropriate times has caught him out. I recall a few months after the inheritance tax policy steal - his smugness betrayed any conceit that he was doing it for the good of the taxpayer.
It's ok to have gallows humour (behind close doors) when things are just going so wrong that you need to laugh to stay in control, but for the most senior ranking politician in our country to openly/publically guffaw and kid about at such a critical point is crass, but the idea that he might be enjoying it well it's is sickening.
The other craziness was the macho posturing with Iceland. Though I accept the Icelanders are being a bit cheeky, our LA's never had to invest the money there and many were sensible and didn't. The situation certainly doesn't need Brown essentially grabbing his crotch screaming "do you want a bit, do you want a piece of me" like some kind of yobbish lowlife (metaphorically of course). I feel ashamed to have him represent this country I really do.
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balhamu wrote:
#410
Quite right - totally agree.
I thought that Acts of Parliament have to be used in the way that Parliament intended them to be when they were passed, otherwise decisions were open to judicial review.
No once a law is passed it can be used for other reasons (as long as they fit the legal framework - that is why so many liberty groups had concerns about the anti-terror legislation (and also the "Hunting with dogs act" - apparently if you walk your dog and he chases after an animal you could get tried under the act)
I understand why the Government did what they did. But they still shouldn't have done it.
Personally, I think that they should have done so - if they have legislation that would allow them to freeze assets which could be used to cover our losses then it falls under their duty of care to the nation.
The problem is that the anti-terror legislation should not have been so "wooly" that they could have used it.
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The Cookie Monster @ 420
... "I wonder what the difference is between: 'Hate Crime' and a 'Non Hate Crime'??" ...
Well, all hate crime is crime but not all crime is hate crime ... hate crime is a SUBSET of crime in other words.
What makes a crime a hate crime is if the main motivation of the perpetrator is an irrational hatred of the victim, based (for example) on race, religion, sexuality or gender.
Perhaps slightly controversially, along with the usual racial type stuff, I would class rape as a hate crime since it is driven by hatred of women.
Don't worry, driving a little bit too fast is NOT a hate crime, no way!
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#424 - CEH
Look, Chuck, just don't try it on with me. Most people are not taken in by your bluster.
You may think that this discussion is just a playground, and words are just little toys to throw around. Most other people are a bit more mature than that, and actually also believe that words have meaning beyond the present moment.
So you know (or ought to know) exactly what I am talking about.
The principle being discussed on the previous blog is highly relevant (and you jolly well know it), and it is to do with whether we can trust the government to not abuse anti-terror legislation.
Now these are some facts:
1. The earth is not flat.
2. It goes round the sun.
3. The government misapplied anti-terror legislation against a non-terrorist entity - i.e. Iceland.
Now readers of these comments have a clear choice. Either to believe someone who comes out with streams of utter drivel, or those who simply point out what is happening in that strange realm called THE REAL WORLD.
The same applies to assessing whether someone is a troll.
So my message to readers is: make your choice.
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429 DHWilkinson ,
No offence taken my friend but i see that CEH has now owned up to being the referrer which makes me very sad but also angry, I dont care from what political persuasion they are , moderation should be left to moderaters, I get plenty of bile poured on me but I dont run off and refer like some.
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435 Sagamix
Bash the Proles....
All I can find is under the heading "The curtailing of benefits idea" in this link:
http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/welfare/15/
Is that what you meant?
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mrshamilton wrote:
So it's more important what a politician looks like rather than what he does?
I think it is important in this instance.
The country is in the middle of a major financial crisis and it appears that the PM is happy because it has taken the media's attention of his party's poor performance.
It makes the PM (rightly or wrongly) look like he cares more about keeping his own job then protecting the jobs of the rest of the country.
If you compare his attitude to David Cameron's performance at the Tory Party Confererence you see a clear difference.
It would be different if the PM has a history of telling jokes but he doesn't - quite the opposite in fact.
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438 DHWilkinson
I didn't really want to bring up a comparison between Brown and Churchill.
The reason it came up at all was because Balhamu has been hounding me to explain what sort of demeanour Brown should have if braying like an ass with joy that he has defeated the Labour plotters is inappropriate during a time of economic crisis.
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#11 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2:
"floored logic". I am such a pedant!
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re: 437 sagamix
I think the basic distinction is this:
Extreme Socialism: the government steals money from the people, and enforces all citizens to be the same as each other, all cast in the image of their leader, existing rather than living. Absolutely everybody is miserable/suicidal.
Extreme Conservatism: the people steal money from each other, and the government just lets them all get on with it. Some people are very happy, others are very miserable.
The way of socialism is to beat everybody down to the lowest common denominator, and then expect them all to be thankful.
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