To the White House
NEW YORK: Gordon Brown's got his wish. He's heading to the White House tomorrow afternoon.
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And George Bush is heading off for a long weekend of golf....
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I suppose that's the benefits of the special relationship.
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Just remember what George said Gordon ...no quid pro quo.
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Clearly the worlds big hitters value the opinion of someone who's managed the World's fourth largest economy for the last 11 years.
Worth it just to gaul the purple faced ranters on here!!
PS Can I suggest you take Balhamu with you as he/she clearly understands economics more tham the rest of the bloggers added together
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(1)
Apparently, George Bush forgot to check his diary.
George realised that he had the choice of seeing Gordo or playing golf and had to make an easy (oops, I nearly wrote "difficult" but that would have been really inappropriate!) choice - the golf won out!
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Hmmm!
I guess is is important politically for Brown to get this meeting - to show the folks back home that he is a big hitter.
A much less important meeting for Bush though.
Bush will want something in return for granting GB his wish...
I bet this will end up costing me money!
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This is just a PR stunt. Pathetic.
Gordon Brown has nothing to offer on this.
He is just hoping that we will think he is doing something. He flew over to the States without an invitation to the White House and, like some pushy gatecrasher, has elbowed himself in.
When he comes out and answers questions, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE ASK HIM WHAT HE HAS ACTUALLY ACHIEVED AND DO NOT LET HIM JUST WAFFLE ON.
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I bet there is a gnashing of teeth in George Osborne's office after his pathetic comment this morning that GB had been snubbed. What with this prestigious invite and the 10 point drop in the polls, the Tories are definitely on the back foot. George's negative comments about the bailout will not have gone down well in Washington either. I can see why Gordon made his comment about novices. George is still in primary school where managing the UK economy is concerned. His contribution on the way forward has been zilch.
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Please George, please can I join the party, please, please, please...
I didn't mean the things i said about wanting Barrack to win - honest.
Embarrasing excuse for a PM
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@8, brown was a novice in '97 and if you believe his press he inherited a worse state of affairs than it is now so surely a fresh set of eye is needed to sort this mess out
maybe brown will call the election now if things are looking up for labour hes set out his vision
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What concerns me is that Brown might be there to discuss the New World Order conspiracy - look it up on Google. It's sooooo scary. That would explain global financial emergency and giving money for malaria and a whole lot more.
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oooohhh,
George Bush is going to see me. What a great photo opportunity for the smiling PM. Exactly who or what does he represent, because apparently the situation is nothing like that in America, the American situation is different, no really, this is important, team GB, which, by the way, came fourth in the Olympic medal table, is in nothing like the financial turmoil which America now has.
No, you must understand that our banks are sound and we will deal with this in our own way, our own way not being in any way connected to how America solves its problems, so why is he sticking his jaw into other peoples affairs, if they don't effect what happens for team GB.
I suppose that some may say I am being flippant or that I show no respect to our PM, well this despot deserves no respect, he lacks credibility, and he has given up any dignity with his pleading for his job at the labour party conference.
Anyway, what you didn't see was that when Gordon met the athletes, without any members of the general public being allowed near, he took all the gold medals from the athletes to replenish our own gold reserves, most of which have been sold off, by Gordon.
This is a joke, and where is Sarah, back home with the kids. Talking of Sarah, where is Harry again, hope that there has not been another media cover-up, and William, I thought that he was going to do time in the SAS, hope he signed the confidentiality contract.
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Gordo has already verbally backed Paulson's plan but the Yanks want 20 billion out of him to prop it up. An invite and a bit of shmooze and we the taxpayer will probably end up owning 20 billion of American toxic debt.
All the while the plan has been soundly fisked by the FT and others as a really, really bad idea - right up Gordon's street then.
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Gordon "Micawber" Brown's by-hand message for George "I'll get Osama" Bush:
"Annual taxed income twenty pounds, annual government expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual taxed income twenty pounds, annual government expenditure twenty pounds ought and six on supporting the US Bailout, result misery."
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Hold him properly to account on his return - I am sick of interviewers letting Brown get away with his usual blather - ask him serious questions and repeat them until he has to answer.
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Good old George Bush. Able to make a fifteen minute window in his diary for one of the men who legitimised his war in Iraq.
Phew, knew he'd return the favour some day. Bit of grandstanding, photo with the president, Cameron reminded he's not PM yet.
This is going to cost us money isn't it?
What was wrong with picking up the phone eh? Too easy for Bush to bat him away? Had to camp on the White House Lawn until Bush was embarrassed into seeing him.
Probably had to have Tony Blair put in a good word for him.
It really is very embarrassing isn't it? The 'leader' of our nation having to sit on the tarmac until the President of the US is embarrassed into seeing him a full day after he arrives unannounced.
Anyway, no matter what happens a recession is nailed on. The entire global banking system may not collapse but the general public have surely woken up to the idea that perhaps borrowing all that money off the back of the inflated value of your house ain't quite such a whizzer idea after all.
Now we just have to hope Gordon got the message too. Somehow though I doubt that.
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Hold him properly to account on his return
Not possible. He is a master of simply not answering the question. There is no question unambiguous enough that he can't simply bat away with a 'What's really important here...blah...blah' or 'What you must remember blah...blah'.
The best thing the BBC and other news media can do is simply deny him the oxygen of publicity. Refuse to be 'used' by Gordon Brown as an outlet for his vanity and dissembling. Just don't even bother to interview him. Don't report on him. Give him what he gives you. Nothing.
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@10, I don't think having a phd and lecturer at Edinburgh University really qualifies as being a novice. Interesting comment from somewhere in the BBC:
"Brown was first elected to the Commons in 1983, and was tipped from the start to go far in politics; he is a skilled economist and an extremely accomplished public speaker. "
(src: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2070402.stm)
And crowdedisland, I tend to think Brown answers questions rather well, but if someone would just stop that Cameron getting away with his usual blather, well...
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Here we go again....$700+ billion dollars to bail out the 'rich' and nothing for the 'less rich.' Apparently about 1/10 of that amount would alleviate poverty in Africa.....but, hey, who really cares?
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Presumably Gordon Brown has agreed to change the script from the one where all the economic problems of the world originated in the US to one where George Bush is a hero.
How was the journey over Nick? Was the plane crowded?
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@TAG, the whole reason for the UK credit crunch is the UK banks exposure to the US sub prime mortgage market and our banks reluctance to come clean about the extent of their exposure, hence the lack of trust between institutions and resulting drying up of the wholesale money market. Which means GB's meeting with Bush is vital to our national interest.
Also its worth noting that the tories proposed solution to Northern Rock was to let it go bust the resulting crisis in our financial industry would have been disastrous
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A meeting of two master-minds, then?
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Gordon, just think of all those photo-oppurtnities you'll have shaking the hand of the head of the federal reserve. Maybe if you beg hard enough you can stay a whole month and steal the thunder from the troy conference.
They will probably ask for some financial help in covering the toxic debt, so why not dip into the "Gordon Brown popularity fund" and pull out a few billion to placate them? You know, the same fund you pulled £2.7 billion out of to lose an election recently. After all, it's not like we're all swimming in debt due to your profligate policies is it? Let the tories start paying it off in 2 years time.
Oh, and Gordon, try to to offend your hosts by starting each sentence with "The credit crunch that started in America ..." like you've been doing for the last 6 months.
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"Brown was first elected to the Commons in 1983, and was tipped from the start to go far in politics; he is a skilled economist and an extremely accomplished public speaker. "
Bwahahahahaha.
Did his mum write that. A skilled economist? 'No more boom and bust' Brown. The man who presided over the biggest boom in UK house price history. The man who increased national debt by more than any other chancellor in history. In fact the man who will shortly have increased the national debt by more than all the chancellors in history added together.
A skilled economist? Lucky he wasn't a rubbish economist eh?
An accomplished public speaker?
Bwahahahahaha.
Evasive, avoiding eye-contact. Accomplished at reading out a load of moonshine without dying of embarrassment like any normal person would. Maybe.
Accomplished at avoiding answering the simplest of straight questions? A master.
Accomplished public speaker in the sense that you believe a word he says? I don't think so.
He wrote that entry himself didn't he?
SKilled economist? Still laughing at that one.
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Oh, and Gordon, don't forget to make the most of your little trip during "Prime minister doesn't answer questions time"
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Mr Robinson - I think you needed to explain just WHY you think that Mr Brown wished to go to the White House. Do you have any evidence to support your claim or are you just trying to maintain momentum with your personal and very unpolitically biased campaign against Mr Brown and the part he represents?
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@18
He has a PhD in History not economics so I guess that makes him a novice. Also his bio lists his early career as a T.V. journalist not a lecturer.
I guess that your impression of facts and his are roughly equivalent. It's a shame they are out of step with the truth.
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Nice of Bush to grant Brown an audience.
I hope he asks Brown to kiss his ring.
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I read an article of how instead of calling us Bush is calling Merkel and Sarkozy for advice and then finally he might pick the phone up to Gordon. What influence we had with Blair has been destroyed. This Rose Garden press conference will be the last for both leaders I'm sure.
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fknose @19 wrote:
"Here we go again....$700+ billion dollars to bail out the 'rich' and nothing for the 'less rich.' Apparently about 1/10 of that amount would alleviate poverty in Africa.....but, hey, who really cares?"
I certainly don't!
The West has poured billions of dollars into Africa - most of it has ended up in the hands of Swiss bankers, arms salesmen, Mercedes-Benz dealerships and expensive 'ladies of the night'.
Let them sort their own problems out.
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I have to correct myself Gordon was employed as a lecturer in Politics at Glasgow College of Technology from 1976 to 1980.
However I still question his econimic credentials.
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At 6:06pm on 25 Sep 2008, U9461192 wrote:
Hold him properly to account on his return
Not possible. He is a master of simply not answering the question. There is no question unambiguous enough that he can't simply bat away with a 'What's really important here...blah...blah' or 'What you must remember blah...blah'.
It is possible if the interviewer has the bottle to keep on asking the same question...time and time again until he/she gets an answer.
It's no different to interviewing a prisoner in police custody...without the caution of course.
Problem is there are no interviewers with the backbone to stand up to the arch dissembler.
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AdamSmith57 @ 20
Probably not where Nick was sitting in Economy!
Everyone else was in First Class or Business Class!
It was even more crowded in the Cockpit - Gordon is still in charge, despite the disastrous few weeks he's been having, so was up front giving the pilot instructions on how to fly the plane!
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Blimey the usual mob are frothing over this.
President meets with British Prime Minister in time of financial crisis!
Bush must be doing it because he feels sorry for Brown or owes him a favour.
For goodness sake Brown is an expert and a heavyweight leader. The Americans value his opinion and rightly so.
Brown is an active leader in times of crisis. Britain punches massively above its weight with Brown at the helm. This was the case with OPEC and the Saudis and it is the same here.
The looney Tories on here can't stand it but it is a fact.
Re post #8 and George Osbourne - the man is comedy hero. Cameron must be desperate to offload him now. Let's see if DC can show some leadership when the shadow is cabinet next reshuffled.
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GB has been talking about this type situation for years, there is nobody more ready than GB, to help the world recover from this crisis.
Can people stop trying to score cheap political point and get behind the PM.
It is in all of our interests that the world does recover from the down-turn.
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EwanNic
"I don't think having a phd and lecturer at Edinburgh University really qualifies as being a novice."
Please check around all the better universities and discover how many people have PHds. Ditto with many PLCs.
Then consider whether having an intellectual qualification makes you "right" to take the top job in an organisation.
If that's the criterion, there are thousands of people who could run any part of private or public business.
Some are great. Some deliver disastrous outcomes.
Everyone who takes over the Premiership is a novice. That's just a fact of life.
Doesn't mean that you are necessarily the best - just the person who's there.
But the electorate is allowed to expect that, whoever is in that role exercises common sense.
Brown seems affronted by the realisation that his stupid decision to withdraw the 10p tax rate offended people of every party. He could have solved the problem very easily. But his pride didn't allow him to work it through.
NOT the sign of a good leader.
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Plenty of complaints on here about Brown/Cameron et al not answering questions.
After being in the political game for a while, these politicians develop a vast toolkit of standard anodyne answers to virtually every conceivable question that could be thrown at them.
It is highly frustrating for us, the public to listen to this but they are doggedly determined not to be lead into any elephant traps.
On the rare occasions when it does happen, their anguish is all too plain to see, as happened an unfortunate woman Minister one time on Newsnight, when she was completely slaughtered by Paxman and soon after stepped down.
But that could be a co-incidence.
I have concluded that the trade-offs required to play the political game probably means that being economical with the actualite/giving effectively 'non-answers' is an unfortunate necessity much of the time as part and parcel of the compromises needed in a democracy.
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@18, no practical experience = novice
next
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It's fortunate Palin didn't have Gordon in her sights as a great brown moose.
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When living in Cheltenham many eons ago, I heard a guy say that his life-long dream was to go to Stringfellas in London... and I thought, (apart from the obvious) 'don't you have more important things to be getting on with?'
Finally 'in the White House'? Oh, maybe this was the excuse for the Sarahs to talk trans-altlantic lipstick?
Meanwhile... a certain UK Bank / Building Society (?) lays off 370 workers... and a UK man is delivering his wife's baby in hospital cos there's no mid-wife available... etc etc
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redonthebed
The Tory response to the Northern Rock problem was to place the company under adminsitration. That does NOT mean allowing it to go bankrupt...
It's a bit like Chapter 11 protection in the USA.
Personally, I'd have allowed NR to fail. They had a stupid business model. (Borrow very short, lend really long, against very doubtful income to loan values.) The FSA - Brown's creation - was aware of that. But, it seemed that NR was based a long way from London, and in a Labour heartland, so they didn't have the balls to go and force them to straighten out.
I've always wondered whether a Chelsea based NR-equivalent would have been thrown a GBP50Billion lifeline.
I have a lot of personal empathy with Brown. I understand he was a promising junior rugby player. Very sad that he lost an eye. Very good that he managed to get excellent health treatment.
Very bad that he doesn't seem in the least perturbed by the fact that, in a real world life, it's possible to achieve more than the simple outpouring of money would suggest.
That's to say that, just because you spray money around, it doesn't mean you will achieve more than if you'd encourgared people to do better. (That can well mean paying more, spend on training, etc.)
Brown allowed GPs to be paid a heck of a lot more than they expected, with an option to deliver less time coverage. Then claims to have created a great breakthrough by claiming to extend hours of access by paying them more.
The man's a fool.
Don't challenge his intelligence. We've all met them. Bright - think they're right - but functionally incompetent.
Just his reality factor is based on the assumption that what we pay for through taxes - over which we have no control - is the same as trying to deliver something that a "real-market" economy depends on.
I'd love to see the whole cabinet get back into the "real world" and assess their "worth" when trying to make money from people's disposable income.
My guess is that most of them wouldn't really understand their environment. But we pay for their mortgages!
I quite fancy a job where I could expect some other poor sucker to buy the most important asset I'm likely to own. And pay for my pension...
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This world does not need Bush turning this crisis into another global fear factor.
The speech Bush put out today will only incite all those places he has ear-marked as rogue-states.
I say this friends, these are very testing times, for world peace, the last thing we need is the Bush admin, using the crisis to prop up their political stance.
Capitalism has failed and America must adjust their regulation on banking and business operations.
Bush must accept that and not try to duck responsibility of this down-turn.
The world needs a calm hand to steer us through this crisis, lets hope that Bush, doesn't blank GB out.
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mrshamilton @26 wrote:
".... are you just trying to maintain momentum with your personal and very unpolitically biased campaign against Mr Brown and the part he represents?"
The part he represents is best described in a word unadmissible on this blog.
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One of two things happened.
Either Bush shouted at somebody for not telling him that the inestimable Mr. Brown was in the States and to invite him over immediately
- or -
Brown pleaded that Bush give him a few minutes otherwise he will be a laughing stock when he gets back home.
Any bets?
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#35 - derekbarker
I agree. Everyone should get behind the Prime Minister - just like they did with Julius Caesar.
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Did GB Fly First Class ?
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peteHolly
"For goodness sake Brown is an expert and a heavyweight leader. The Americans value his opinion and rightly so.
Brown is an active leader in times of crisis. Britain punches massively above its weight with Brown at the helm. This was the case with OPEC and the Saudis and it is the same here."
I always want the UK to "punch above its weight".
I see no impact from a Brown initiative with OPEC. Never understood why the price of oil soared - except that hedge funds and investors with too much cash sloshing around decided that oil should be targeted.
Price rise was totally illogical. Decline is normal. Brown's impact? Not sure he has a lot of economic clout to bring to bear. After all, we can't even afford to pay for our very local islands at reasonable prices, without borrowing to pay for on-going costs of doing business...
The Americans value him, because he funds a part of wars we don't all agree with.
Using underpaid, under-protected, under-valued military personnel.
He punches above his weight. Inside the Labour Party.
Would you really like him to be your boss in a private company? Where it was either "spend more or we'll have to lose lots of jobs", or "hey guys, we could do an awful lot more if we got smarter about what we do and how we do it"?
Why do the dead-heads on this site assume that it takes more money to achieve a little bit more?
It needs smarts. Thinking a little bit more about what is really needed, who could do what, when it's required, etc. That's what PLCs do every day.
That's what the best parts of the NHS try to achieve.
Brown and Blair put in place all sorts of consutancy-inspired measurement factors. Mostly just bulls**t.
Government is poorly equipped to manage anything. There is simply not the experience to adopt that role.
Necessary evil. But to be held at arm's length.
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As First Lord of the Treasury (officially and unofficially) Gordon Brown's fingerprints are all over the scene of this financial crime.
He has had 11 years to do nothing whatsoever about the excesses of the market perpertrated by the lack of proper regulation.
Therefore he has failed in his role not only in this regard but in the way he has splashed the cash around virtually bankrupting the country IMF style!
So it is preposterous that through his photo opportunity with Pres Bush he sill try to "con" the British Electorate into thinking he is our saviour in some way.
The British Electorate will have news for him. We've seen through his ineptitude and prolifigacy and we now recognise New Labour for the "con-trick" that it has become!
Sound money and reward for hard work are on their way after the next election!
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Menedemus@33
You paint a detailed picture with our "leaders" at one end of the plane and our "blogger" at the other. I wonder which airline they chose. Difficult choice with all the politics and involved. And how many were in the entourage? That's important in these days when we are all conscious of our carbon footprint - especially when the main purpose of the visit is to talk about global poverty.
I'm sure all the details - airline, numbers, cost - will come out in due course.
Perhaps our blogger will give us a clue.
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Yo Brown whats happenen.
Er Hello Mr President good to see…… ya all
Whats that Brown?
Err….. Nice to see you Mr President
Oh yeah...good to see you to Brown… whats up?
Err Errr… Mr President I would like to talk about the credit crunch.
God I love credit crunch, its so crunchy, cant start the day without some.
Errrr no Mr President err I mean the GLOBAL economic crisis.
Oh that, yeah, OK Brown, was that the thing I was talking about on the TV last night?
Errrrr yes MR President
You got any money Brown, its gona take a whole lota government money to sort that out. Aint that right Hank? …… Hank sniggers.
Err well yes Mr President, yes it is.
So whata ya got then, how many billion?
Were chucking in 700 billion for openers.
Whats your team got Brown.
Well Err no Mr President, were a bit strapped right now, been sending a lot of money home you see.
Whats that Brown?
Errr… were a bit broke, just wanted to talk about it really.
Christ Brown, its Bucks we need not talk, we got all the talk we need.
Errr Mr President I just thought yewd like my advice, Im very good at economics.
Gee Brown its Bucks we need isn’t it Hank…. Hank nods furiously.
Mmm yes quite right Mr President, Bucks mmmm where can we get Bucks.
Well weve got some Brown, cos we dont waste ours bucks on bloody quangos and equality and diversity officers.
Bush starts to shuffle back to his play station.
Silence and tumble weed, as Brown figures out how to make the meeting last 15 minutes.
Bush and Brown play Gun Fight on the Grassy Knoll II. Hank makes a call.
Agents drag Brown and sofa out of the office after 20 minutes.
Following morning:
Downing Street (now back in their bunker) issue statement:
The PM and The President have had a very constructive meeting, have devised a rescue plan and will be working closely together to save the planet.
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See its the usual anti-brown rubbish on here, as ever. I think that you will find that Brown is very well thought of on the international stage and after delivering record braking numbers of quarters of growth, rightly so. And lets be fair, this crisis was made in the USA by greddy bankers and not by Browns policies (though the FSA could have did a bit more on the regulation front admittedly). Anyone know how DC would have handled Lloyds HBOS and the current market conditions...??
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I suppose this is what is called 'gesture politics'.
I don't see that it does any harm and may help to calm things down a bit on the financial markets if it is perceived that these politicians are attempting co-ordinate a recovery package.
These financial stability issues are a complex matter and whatever the rights and wrongs of how we got to this point, from now on there is going to have to be more appropriate/'better' regulation of these markets, where it is sensible to regulate.
However, I don't see why some parts of a market can't be totally unregulated, as long as people 'investing' in those areas fully understand that they could lose their shirt.
Cross-contamination of assets must be forbidden in the future i.e. sub-prime assets mixed with the 'good stuff' cannot happen again ... the rocket science that said it would work was plainly wrong.
It will all get sorted out one way or another.
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What has to be realised is that a similar situation happened in America in 1921, what did they do, let it go, just go bust.
In 1928 what happened, they did everything to maintain prices, what happened, the Great Depression. Let them go bust, that's what you do. Just let them go, short term pain, you gain in the long run. You really do.
When our Gordon refers to boom and bust everybody keeps thinking ten years, no try eighty, it could even be a hundred but the longer the time the worse the bust, they keep thinking that they can avoid the invisible hand, sorry guys, it works. Go bust, please.
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What is the point of Brown going to visit Bush!
They are both on their way out.
The memories that they started two wars and overseeing the economy go down the drain is the only thing they have in common.
We will all need a shovel to clean up the s... thats left.
Of course Bush hasn't tried to give the country to the EU, Yet.
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#45
Stop listening to all the trip-trap nonsense being fed by ill- fated pension losers.
It is of vital impotance that the USA gets its head around this crisis.
It is as simple as this....there is no-one in the UK parliament more able to shed some experience on this global down-turn than GB.
Drawing daggers wont help anybody get through this crisis
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Maybe Gordon Brown can give advise George Bush - that the best way to deal with a dying economy during a period of rampant inflation and increased utility prices- is to calm the public.............
.......... with a population of 305m in the US - that is a lot of lagging Bush is going to be paying for.
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#53
This is not 1928, this is a world on the brink, many nation including those rogue nation that the Bush admin refer to, rely on America.
If America goes bust and introverts on her-self, then this world will be closer to that cuban missle crisis than ever before.
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MEDIA:
I agree with the calls above........... hold Gordon to account.
DO NOT LET HIM WAFFLE. MAKE HIM ANSWER THE QUESTION.
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# 48
"He has had 11 years to do nothing whatsoever about the excesses of the market perpertrated by the lack of proper regulation."
Not quite true. He went way beyond benign neglect. He actively promoted city greed and reduced regulation so no-one knew what was going on.
He actually promised in a speech to the CBI in 2005:
"not just a light touch but a limited touch."
This reduction in regulation and supervision is part of the reason we are where we are now, and certainly a big element of the reason why the fiasco at Northern Rock was not spotted sooner.
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No one really cares. Brown is a hopeless cause. He hopes to get some reflected glory.
It would have been rather entertaining for him to have been snubbed (again) - but for him to be invited is really a non-event.
I just hope he left the big cheque book marked "taxpayers (today and future) account" at home.
All we can hope is he doesn't run up too many more debts for us and our kids to pay off before the next election.
The political (and journalistic) classes are insulated from the worst of it (and can protect their families/children from it) - for us in the real world we have worked hard to save, and now are going to finance Browns spending instead of our own.
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51. , Dontletthetoriesin:
"See its the usual anti-brown rubbish on here, as ever. I think that you will find that Brown is very well thought of on the international stage and after delivering record braking numbers of quarters of growth, rightly so"
Partly right .GB inherited a very healthy economy...he even bragged about "64 quarters" of economic growth - But stop and work that out...that is 16 years!! So even Gordon Bruin admits the economy was growing for 5 years BEFORE he and NuLab got hold of the reins and created chaos!
and don't forget..he followed Tory fiscal policy for 2 whole years..
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Pete Holly said #34
'Brown is an expert and a heavyweight leader. The Americans value his opinion and rightly so. Brown is an active leader'
Derek Barker said #35
'GB has been talking about this type situation for years'
So, our expert, heavyweight, valued, active, punching above his weight leader has been talking internationally about this for years, and has achieved precisely . . .
Nothing.
Mainly because despite talking about the need for better regulation of financial markets internationally he allowed our home markets to run with little or no regulation. I imagine the rest of the world might have taken some notice if he had actually practised what he preached.
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derekbarker
"It is as simple as this....there is no-one in the UK parliament more able to shed some experience on this global down-turn than GB."
Spot on.
There is no-one in the UK better placed than GB to show how to achieve a local down-turn, so that must surely translate into how to manage a global down-turn.
Not sure what qualifications he has to manage a genuine up-turn. That's what we need.
"Capitalism has failed and America must adjust their regulation on banking and business operations."
Couldn't agree more. Or not.
Allowing financial services people to do whatever they like - recently stupid things - was a bad move. Not unique to the US, but definitely driven from Wall Street. NOT well managed in the UK. (That means that UK regulators took inadequate action to limit the stupidity factors.)
Still trying to work out which parts of what we call "progress" did not originate from a capitalist background.
Transport? Medical treatment and drug development? Energy generation? Education? All originated from "private money". Sounds like capitalism did and does a lot.
If Brown had been a bit more forceful, UK finance institutions would not have bought into truly stupid "investments". The problem would have stayed with the USA.
If the greedy and obfuscating institutions there (including their credit rating agencies) had realised they couldn't sell off toxic products, the whole bubble would have been pricked before it got out of hand.
If that's what you mean by capitalism failing, I'd agree. Lack of sensible regulation. That's a failure of government...
Unbridled capitalism can be a blight on people.
Problem is that "capital" originally seemed to mean the use of "capital assets" being flogged to deliver worthwhile outcomes.
In recent years, playing with pretend money has been allowed to get out of control. That's a failure of governments incapable of recognising that generating wealth from assets and financial gambling is rather different.
Brown managed the UK's funds directly - now apparently indirectly - for a decade. And squandered huge amounts of money. That's exactly the type of person we need to see us through a credit crunch.
After all, he allowed the UK to claim "growth" by permiting an enormous credit-based boom.
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Is the BBC Politics page just there to report the triumphs of Gordon? I mean there was an interview with Cameron on Sky News where he was furious with the PM for misquoting Tory policy during his main speech. Is it not the duty of our BBC to report this even if it was with Sky? Please grow some and start attacking this terrible government!
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derekb
"If America goes bust and introverts on her-self, then this world will be closer to that cuban missle crisis than ever before."
Were you around at that time?
When the USSR went bust, did it mean that a "cuban missle crisis" - assuming I understand your spelling correctly - came closer?
There are still bits of nuclear remnants scattered around the ex-USSR nations. Even the worst elements never presumed to unleash a nuclear holocaust. If the USA "went bust", the nuclear capacity would still exist. Do you really think the politicians would just push a button out of frustration?
If the USA went bust, it would be a real problem. For a century, they have driven global economic expansion. Dragging popular expectation along.
Maybe your history teachers failed to say that the USA was traditionally isolationist in thinking. Overly-keen to manage nations close to it but not too keen to get involved with global politics. Populated by peoples from UK, Germanic, Italian, Spanish, etc backgrounds.
So, not keen to enter WWI.
Very reluctant to enter WWII. Many (including JFK's father) thinking that Germany would win, so non-involvement would be best.
(Yes the same JFK who talked a lot, sh**ged a lot, didn't really do much, but left LBJ with a Vietnam war legacy and that same LBJ who actually saw through the legislation to bring a bit of liberty to all the citizens of the USA. Funny that JFK was lionised, while LBJ took all the flack... Maybe he was GB to TB's popular hero. Except that GB hasn't done anything so far. But LBJ didn't screw up his nation's economy.)
If you really think capitalism is so bad, how do you explain the progress of Russia and China? They have different models, but unleashed a capitalist approach that seems to be changing their nations' fortunes.
If you like, I'd be happy to take out a couple of random financial services executives and have them publicly executed "Pour encourager les autres".
Still wouldn't stop politicians here spend our money in a profligate manner.
Maybe a random... No that's not democratic.
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Mostly a waste of time talking to the web world.
It would be good to find someone who really doesn't have a tribal view of life.
Never thought of Nick's site as a dating agency...
But he seems to encourage ephemera, rather than genuine political analysis.
Hey, Ho. At least he flies around with the PM's entourage. I suppose we pay for both GB and Nick. That's life...
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There is no global financial crisis - but there is an Anglo-American financial crisis, due to a decade of terrible financial mismanagement and lack of oversight. For Gordon to keep his job, he wants to be seen bestriding the big stage. The price of his invite to the White House will be the British taxpayer forking out for a sizable chunk of American debt, as if our own weren't enough already. It beggars belief. The sooner both these men are out of their jobs the better - sadly they're busy mortgaging all of our futures before that happens.
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What on earth could Gordon Brown who has made such a mess of our own finances have in terms of advice to offer an insight into world problems. He can't even organise his own back yard!
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Just a small point for the usual vitriol that surrounds any mention of GB. Yes he will probably get us involved in the debt rescue (I'm not sure that it is the right way), BUT some of the debt is held by British Banks so he is in fact helping bail out our own institutions. One of the sticking points was that the American Public was going to be bailing out British Banks.
So perhaps GB meeting Bush is not just a photo opportunity of two leaders on a losing streak.
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Curse of Brown strikes again -- as soon as he get involved, it all falls apart.
Do you think the US Taxpayers would like to keep him?
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Maxskeptic @30 tells us
"I don't care" and then cites the fatcats in Africa who work the system for their benefit.....and ends with "Let them sort out their own problems."
Thanks for the insight:-)
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I think it is entirely appropriate that both Brown and Bush meet.
It's probably the last time we'll see the architects of this disaster together, so it'll make a nice photo.
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One thing was clear at the nulabour confrence - they were awfully keen to avoid talking about the inevitable - that GDP is going to turn negative in Q3.
So there's a stark denial of the 'bust' side of Gordon brown's claim that there would be no more tory boom and bust.
But what about the other side of the equation...no more boom? How can a man who allowed the money supply to grow at 15% per annum, allowed banks to have 50x leverage, added one million public sector workers, put 650bn of public sector spending off balance sheet, tripled the budget of the NHS to 100bn.....how can this man possibly lay claim to avoiding the 'boom'???? He pumped the boom up, he strapped on the after burners, he changed the fuel to high octane and yet his apologists on these posts keep asking the same question:
"but this is really an American problem, right?!"
Wrong.
Of course there's a problem in America but only the lightest of examinations of the UK would reveal a dangerously exposed economy.
Why do these apologists for newlabour and Gordon Brown think the currency is so weak? and still weak against the dollar if this is a US only problem?
The savings ratio in thsi country is at an all time low..the whole country is borrowning form the rest of the world not just the government. The banking sysstem is a net borrower; they simply do not have enough deposits.
Yet newlabour apologists still live in this dreamland tat nect time Gordon Brown speaks it will be to tell us that he's popped upstairs and found an old piece of china in the attic. He'll sell that and give it to the poorest hard working families who all deserve our sympathy.
This is the most patronising and disingenuous government in the western world.
Get a new leader and call an election.
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The real people dealing with this issue have already met. Brown's visit is just a photo opportunity.
Our embassy in America should keep a life size card board cut out of Brown (a bit like the old John Smiths advert) and wheel it our for a photo on the lawn with Bush. Job done. The same result as the man being their in person.
This solution would have left the people who are actually trying to solve the problem time to concentrate on the resolution - without having to stop for a cup of tea.
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A young South African man who lives and works in this country said to me the other day when we were talking politics:
"I hope you don't mind my saying, but most of the foreigners I meet here say - ""Britain tries to save the world but it can't save itself."" We are a laughing stock. Labour has caused us to lose our respect and we are just used by others coming here from abroad, migrants and immigrants. Our self esteem is low and we are losing our national heritage and sense of identity and culture. London is fast becoming an entire foreign city of its own. I can tell you, most people I know have upped sticks and moved out away from it. Why can't the Labour government see that? Why are so many of us emigrating to Australia, Canada etc.? To get away from this mess.
Blair and now Brown seem to get a buzz thinking they are saviours of the world.
You can't even buy English apples in Tesco now and the fresh flowers are all from Kenya and Holland. We should concentrate on our own backyard. Get out of the EU and start providing for ourselves here on our beautiful island.
America is great in some ways but often thought of as the sickest nation on earth. My daughter travels there a lot on business and is always relieved to be back home in England because, she says, they are all very false over there.
I cannot stand Brown and can never see him redeeming himself to me or millions others. Everyone I meet loathes him - if the Conservatives were to unveil their own policies at this stage Brown would only pinch them or try and "trump" them like he did last year at the Conservative party conference when he said he was bringing the troops back home. Hmmmmm. Pinch of salt...
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Anyone railing against NuLabour appologists - please note, that many of the appologists directly rely on the government for their livelihoods.
Whether paid/benefitting directly or indirectly their main concern is that they know that they are not actually necessary (maybe even damaging) and that should their work end, it would not be missed.
They are fleas, trying to convince the dog that fleas are a good thing, that the dog should be greatful to them, and that the dog should not submit to a flea-spray.
You can't aruge with them because their existance is predicated on denying the truth. If they admit the truth, they cease to exist.
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70 - The-real-truth
My sources tell me that the US do have a plan for Brown.
They are going to make him grow a beard and infiltrate him onto the Afghanistan / Pakistan border.
The plan is, that with a couple of million dollars backing, Brown is to infiltrate the Taleban and become their leader.
Whilst this gives Brown a role on the international stage that he craves, the benefit for the west is the total and utter destruction of the Taleban.
Brown will roll-out his model for government, based on the work he has done in the UK, and best forecasts expect total economic collapse and destruction of the Taleban as a political and fighting force within about 6 months.
The rampant taxation strategy to be deployed is straight forwards - although I hear they are having difficulty with the local dialect and coming up with a catchy sounding name for 'Sure Start'.
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#65
Some people on this blog are suggesting that America should just let the banks go to the wall.
N. Korea relies on America for supplies, if America went bust and America could no longer keep it promise to states like N.Korea, then N.Korea would start its nuclear production again.
The middle east is a very volatile area, if America could no longer support Israel, then Israel would deal with Iran.
Look, I dont think it is any big secret, that the USA banks acted in a careless way.
Why have you got this, hang up, that you and you alone pay tax.
Most people are happy to pay tax for their public services.
If your big house on your pastures green is becoming a real burden then sell it!
Are you sure you have your history right with jfk and lbj concerning vietnam?
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Crikey ! Let us hope that the bailout plan is sorted out *before* Brown turns up to put the 'Curse of Gordon' on it..
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fknose @71,
Thank you for repeating the salient points of my post @30.
I presume, therefore, that you agree with me. (Otherwise what is the point of your post?)
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Gordon is keen to avoid the boom word. Describes it as stability. Nulab like the rest of us believed the low inflation stability myth. Net result was a sense we could safely borrow more for longer. Tinker with the inflation index to perpetuate the myth and you have a problem waiting to happen. Crunch time only arrives when the ability to service long term debt is undermined - by unstable rocketing fuel prices, increased tax and food prices.
Yup, Gordon will take his photo op in the US and no doubt run some big story during the Conservative's conference next week.
Until there is better transparency in the way regulators allow 30% price hikes in fuel bills, accountability for the EU failing to cushion the markets by selling its wheat mountain too cheaply and an inflation index which reflects true costs of living to borrowers, all the conditions remain in place for a repeat crash in about 22 months time..
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ah, a few days break was nice.
Both the Iraq War and credit crunch have their downsides but the net gain is a shake up in how things are done and how people relate together. I'd see it more as knocking the rust off an old axle. It's only narrow minded folks who pull their horns in who are going to get burned.
There's almost too much to reflect on in this past week but as much as someone like Gordon Brown can move glacially slowly on the big issues and micro-manage, so they can spot opportunity and turn on a dime. This paradoxical combination of talents has already halved the Tory lead.
Folks knee tremble when Steve Jobs has health issues and are throwing a snit of jealousy over the iPhone application store. He’s a guy who gets attention and confounds his critics just as much as Gordon Brown. It’s why Labour is cool in a way that Vista and the Tories are not.
Why phone God when he does house visits?
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#74
Mr Barker, you question the chronology re Kennedy and Johnson and the Vietnam war.
I think you'll find that Kennedy had "observers" in place in Saigon from 1961, and gradually they became more operational. Johnson, as VP, was obviously aware of this, but the rationale for the intervention was already cast in stone by the time he took over the presidency, and the eventual escalation.
Brown, of course, has the same problem vis a vis Iraq and Afghanistan, and the "War on terror". He can no more disengage than Bliar could.
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The man is an embarrassment to Britain. Does he honestly think he can have any possible influence on American policy? Bush has enough on his plate without this girning ape distracting him. His advice is not exactly of any use to anyone; he now has Britain in debt to the tune of about £100 billion; he sold our gold reserves when the gold price was zilch, the country is in recession and all of our governance is controlled by the EU commission. Now he's busy promising aid to the developing world while his own country faces the biggest problems it has had since the last Labour attempt at government. Our armed forces are engaged in two wars that are of no benefit to us and cannot be won, young soldiers are dying for nothing and he thinks he should be running this country. The man is in total denial. He should return home now, resign, and call an election.
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76# The Real Truth!!!
Two recent "appologists"
Duncan Banatyyne (former Thatcher supporter) on last nights This Week programme supporting Brown as the right person to lead the country now.
Alan Sugar well known to hold similar views and recorded a message for Labours conference.
Both self made multi millionaier hard nosed business men.
Fleas on a dog??????????????
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#83
Mr Hardwidge, you are confusing a dead cat bounce (re the slight rise in Labour votes in the latest opinion polls) with a resurgence of Labour's popularity with the discerning public. Inevitable, after next week's tory conference, normal service will be resumed, and most labour MPs can revert to wondering what life will be like outside of parliament.
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It's great that some people don't let facts get in the way of a good rant.
Brown isn't popular here (and, I stress, with good reason) but his international standing is much higher. Whatever you may think of that, it is a fact.
He went to New York to the UN, so it's hardly suprising Bush didn't meet him "on the tarmac". Brown hadn't gone there to see Bush.
He was invited by Bush to the White House once he was in New York. Now, I don't know what behind the scenes stuff there was and if people were pushing for the meeting on Browns behalf but it has to be pointed out that Dubya has nothing to lose from declining to see Brown if he didn't want to- he's a President at the end of his term who has a major financial crisis on his hands, would he really bother to see the British PM unless the White House believed it might be worthwhile?
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#86 I think maybe the support of such millionaires is why Gordon misunderstood the effect of his decision to abolish the 10% tax rate for low earners. We get alot of this "we're learning" kind of malarkey; it's a bit odd then that Gordon refers to others a novices. You often find this: some people paint others in the way they see themselves.
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The striking thing about Bush during the current economic turmoil is that he hasn't a clue about what's really going on. Fortunately, he has some very bright people around him, and they are doing the job. Bush is an irrelevance, and will be out of office very soon anyway.
Ditto Brown. Irrelevant. Out of his depth. Hopefully there are bright people around him doing the actual thinking. Hopefully he won't be in office for too much longer either.
So their meeting is irrelevant. Bush will no doubt natter on about old-fashioned values back on the ranch. Brown will contribute from his bizarre, sanctimonious 'son of the Manse' morality (yawn).
Ignore these plonkers. Watch the experts, the Fed, Congress, the markets.
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83 Charles
One of the tenets of Buddhism is that life is full of suffering
83 proves the point nicely
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#86
'Sir' Bob Geldoff on the radio this morning reminding us that Gordon Brown has worked 'tirelessly' for the world's impoverished.
Shame he can't work 'tirelessly' to rebuild the national balance sheet....or is the 'Sir' bob on the National Savings adverts asking us to deposit our money with no safer body than...Gordon Brown's treasury.
They take us for fools.....and still fail to understand why they are so unpopular.
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EH wrote:
'This paradoxical combination of talents has already halved the Tory lead.'
Methinks this is a bit of wishful thinking on your part. The poll was taken immediately after The Labour Conference and before The Ruth Kelly resignation. Let's judge the People's mood when David Cameron has spoken and after The Conservative Party Conference. I expect him to rip into Gordon Brown's rhetoric and to expose it as so much hot air. He will no doubt also mount a withering, sustained attack on Gordon Brown's economic legacy. People will soon come to realise that their living standards are continuing to drop in spite of his comforting words. There is precious little he can do about it so I expect the lead to widen again.
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You'll all note that Washington Mutual has also now 'gone', primarily because some 16.7 billion dollars has been withdrawn by worried savers within the last ten days*.
The significant thing about this is that the US Government acted very quickly and decisively via the Office of Thrift Supervision to take control and sell it off.
You cannot but help contrast this with the muddled way in which the Brown devised tri-partite system handled NR.
It would seem that HMG have learn something from that debacle, hence the swift move as HBOS came under pressure recently.
However, Brown will never admit that his tri-partite system (BofE, FSA and Treasury) was and maybe still is, fundamentally flawed.
These people must have massive egos,which simply will not admit to any erorrs, except when backed into a corner i.e. 10% tax fiasco.
* I'd imagine that HBOS has also suffered huge outflows in recent times but of course, we will probably never know.
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As far as Bob Geldof and his comments are are concerned I have little respect for this ageing celebrity who drops expletives at the drop of a hat. His wife committed suicide and his daughter is on drugs. Perhaps he should concentrate his attention nearer to home.
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#83
With regard to your comment about God making house visits, the same is applicable to both death and financial ruin.
We can't escape death, but we can evade financial ruin, or at least recover from it, but only once we have removed the current Government from power.
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#92 RobinJD
GB is unpopular, but if we are picking a leader and a government to lead our country in, and through, a very difficult economic time is popularity even a valid discriminator?
Are we, or should we not be, seeking a pair of hands, backed by a moral and ethical outlook, that will protect all of us in the best possible way?
Frankly, the Tories and their daft think-tanks horrify me. To become electable the Tories must show some backbone and a policy structure that will convince me, and the people, that they will produce, and have the skills to produce and manage, the economy. The Labour and Tory policy of over dependence on the checks and balances of the free-market got us into the parless economic state we are in today.
In short: who do you most trust to manage a very difficult economic outlook in a way that produces a society that you want to live in?
The Tories whose Thatcherite policies and attitudes got us where we are today, or a Labour party which if it returns to its roots, may possibly save us from the terrible consequences of the upcoming depression?
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Having had a think about this, it's actually an impressive move from Brown. Here's a man who knows a lot about economics and was widely regarded (as Chancellor) as being very good at managing the UK economy. He was in New York and managed to get himself put on the President's diary.
Considering all the fuss about being overshadowed by the Pope last time round, I think Brown's flexing his muscles a little.
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Chuck @83,
Back from Manchester?
I thought that you had pledged to stay away... Never mind: you must be a glutton for punishment otherwise you would not support a psychologically flawed looser like Brown.
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misswaldorf @95,
Ooooooooh - No prisoners taken there. (A kindred spirit?)
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Moving on, I do hope that HMG have a 'plan B' for Bradford and Bingley, which we can all see is on the eve of destruction.
'May you live in interesting times', indeed.
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Safe pair of hands,ethical, moral? Don't make me laugh! This is the man who went on a massive spending and borrowing spree while he was Chancellor and plotted slyly for years to overthrow his own leader so that he could achieve his obsessive ambition to be top dog.
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#97
I'm not sure I can accept your flawed logic.
Over the life of this benighted Labour mis-government they benefited from the tory policies that were just beginning to bear fruit. Brown initially, at least for the first 2 years, continued with tory policies. His problems started when he tried to get too clever, picking our pockets with ever more devious taxes, a little at a time, such that there are no more pockets to pick, and public sector finance in this country is a mess.
So, would I, and many like me, give this lot another go at my wallet? I think not, and that's why they are significantly behind in the polls, and will remain so, and will lose the next election.
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I like Doug Bannatyne. Like him, I bought the Tory Kool-Aid at the time then discovered it was a crock the hard way. As for Alan Sugar, he's a big softy but another guy who knows his shit.
Reflecting on the Labour conference, it looks like it had a touch of organisation and resonance to it, and ended well. I know the Tories and their media pals hate it but I liked the signal that Labour "gets it".
Folks say they want change but really hate success and society. Cuz, they're clinging to the old model of greed and insularity, but it doesn't have to be that way. Letting go is never easy. This is no different.
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Browns meeting went well then
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How come we still hear Mrs T being blamed for the ills of this country?
I seem to remember there was a mess for her to clean up when she came to power thanks to the previous Labour incompetents.
Looks as though 11 years of this mob has created an even BIGGER mess for someone to clean up.
11 years they have had to lead this country to 'fairness and prosperity' now all they seem to do is say that they are listening, lessons will be learned , global down turn not our fault blah, blah.
When challenged by the population , they do that irritating childish thing of sticking their fingers in their ears and humming, as if by pretending they can't hear then something derogatory has not been said.
The other way they have of dealing with what they don't want to hear is to 're interpret' even the bleeding obvious. For example the UK population polled on the popularity/success of G Brown, 60% wanted rid of him.
Ms Harman ,on QT , re interpreted this as NOT what the public meant.
YES IT WAS MS HARMAN! AND NOT ONLY G BROWN BUT THE REST OF YOU AS WELL!
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derekb
"Some people on this blog are suggesting that America should just let the banks go to the wall."
You may not have noticed, but the US has let some very big financial services company go bust.
"N. Korea relies on America for supplies, if America went bust and America could no longer keep it promise to states like N.Korea, then N.Korea would start its nuclear production again."
You may not have noticed, but North Korea has already decided that it will commence activities at its nuclear sites.
By the way, N Korea could be self-sufficient if it dumped its totalitarian approach to life.
"The middle east is a very volatile area, if America could no longer support Israel, then Israel would deal with Iran."
If Israel would "deal with" Iran without US support. why hasn't it done so with US support?
"Look, I dont think it is any big secret, that the USA banks acted in a careless way."
Bit Basil Fawlty, don't you think? Statement of the bleeding obvious. If UK financial institutions had behaved with a little more discretion (e.g. not buying junk and having a longer-term money sourcing approach), the impact here would have been different. Any shrinkage of US activity hits the world. But we wouldn't have to pour money to support bankers/financiers because they took dumb decisions.
"Why have you got this, hang up, that you and you alone pay tax. Most people are happy to pay tax for their public services."
I, my wife, my children all pay taxes.
Quite happy to pay for well managed public services. Not at all happy to see money expensively processed through poorly run government agencies to deliver doubtful services.
Even you must acknowledge that this administration has burnt money for fun. I'd prefer a bit more circumspection and a more reasonable use of YOUR taxes, as well as mine...
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#97 John_From_Hendon
"The Tories, whose Thatcherite policies and attitudes got us where we are today..."
How many years ago was that, exactly?
Are you saying that everything that Labour have done since amounts to nothing, not even a hill of beans?
It seems to me that is what you are saying, that everything done between now and Thatcher has achieved nothing, made no impact whatsoever.
Interesting comment.
Or have I missed your point?
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It seems to me that is what you are saying, that everything done between now and Thatcher has achieved nothing, made no impact whatsoever.
If only they had achieved nothing. Nothing would be far preferable to this.
Doubling national debt (almost). Annual deficit out of control. Borrowed and squandered more money than all governments in history added together (almost).
Gordon is going to get taken apart by Cameron at the conference. His only hope is a week of chaff and spoilers to try and keep Cameron off the news. Not that a man who is committed to end the cynical reign of 'spin' that typified Tony Blair would use such tactics. He's an honest 'son of the manse'. He's not afraid of the truth.
Yeah. Right. The Tory conference will be attacked with daily mis-truths, 'announcements', high profile boon-doggles to the brave soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan. Meeting with Nelson Mandella etc etc. Anything at all to try and keep Cameron's message away from the voters.
He won't make the same mistake as last year. We can only wonder what will be the big 'announcement' that has been 'planned for months' and just happens to 'coincide' with Cameron's speech. God, this government is so depressing in their relentless campaign against the truth. Aren't they though?
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C_E_H
"Folks say they want change but really hate success and society. Cuz, they're clinging to the old model of greed and insularity, but it doesn't have to be that way. Letting go is never easy. This is no different."
Complete twaddle.
I don't agree with much of the stuff on this and other blogs. But I don't spot too many people "hating success and society".
But it seems reasonable to question the "success" of New Labour.
No new power generation contracted over a decade in power? Is that a success? Brown flogged Westinghouse - the only UK company with a chance to play in the development of nuclear plants. Of course, it was in the "long-term interests" of the country. Until now!
I don't think it is greed to want a decent, well run education or health care system. Hardly anti-society.
I expect private and public services to perform to their best - and most economical - potential.
I do expect public services to be better than private companies. After all, I - we - have no choice about the taxes we pay, but can shop around for alternatives if we don't like private offerings. Including computer games - the best waste of time and money since health clubs were invented.
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#108. I'm afraid that's basically true.
In terms of interest rates and inflation, we're back to 1997. In terms of the trajectory of unemployment, we're back to the early 1990s recession. In terms of lawlessness, we're back to the Wild West. In terms of education, we're back to Victorian England. In terms of indivudual insolvencies we're way way beyond the 1990s. In terms of Winter deaths, they're still with us. In terms of wasteful expenditure, we're back to the 1970s. In terms of the housing slump, well things have been so bad if the professionals are to be believed. And in terms of presenting false information to get a result we're top notch, hence a $2+ billion budget for the Olympics magic's its way up to $9bn after the Games have been granted.
So yes, it back to [the future?]
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Gordon must be gutted.
Talks collapsed in a shouting match.
That's all he's had for the last few weeks.
Mind you at least he gets to buy some Duty Free for Sarah.
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#111
In some respects, yes, it's almost true.
We're "back to the good / bad * old days but we've spent shedloads getting there.
Or should that be, getting nowhere?
(*delete as appropriate)
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So Gordon will make a stirring speech and say that the UK, with its very proportionately large financial sector, will stand shoulder to shoulder with the US in this economic crisis.
As we go down the pan.
It takes real experience to get us into this mess.
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Gordon Brown is visiting the White House, is that on the guided tour with the tourists?
or is he there to make the tea's whilst the grown ups debate the problems.
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People confuse arrogance and satisfying desire with success and society. This is why they rebel against proper form and proportion. Thus, they hate success and society.
Britain's economic fundamentals are broken. In private Thatcher flew into a rage over Masters of the Universe squandering their power, and Blair just walked away. You wanted and now you're not happy?
This is a moment where folks can weigh the consequences of their actions and influences. They can carry on being egotistical and see how deep the rabbit hole goes, or let go. It's that simple.
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105 Carrotts
Gordon Brown wasn't in the meeting.......... he was in a Starbucks around the corner waiting for his photo opportunity.
...... he was close enough to the meeting, however, for his special lucky aura and presence to adversely effect things.
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There's almost too much to reflect on in this past week but as much as someone like Gordon Brown can move glacially slowly on the big issues and micro-manage, so they can spot opportunity and turn on a dime.
That's what we in the real world characterise as dithering and being two-faced. Gordon Brown has a well-deserved reputation for both.
I must admit though I'm getting a bit curious. Just how far are some Labour apologists and apparatchiks prepared to support this government of all the talentless.
Will they still support it when it suspends a general election due to a 'state of emergency' that can only be dealt with by a man of 'experience'? It's just the more I see of Gollum Brown he doesn't strike me as a man who will relinquish the 'ring' at all.
I'm serious by the way. Would your support go beyond him suspending elections?
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watching george bush read out a statement on the economy on which he was clearly clueless, it really makes you wonder how this utter fool became president of the us - i know it's been said many, many times but i really just can't comprehend how bigotted and short sighted the american people who voted for him are
brown may have his critics, but he is at least a clever bloke - i'm trying to think of a similar complete idiot in power over here, you'd probably have to go back to the mid nineteenth century
obama is intelligent, mccain is a bit odd but he's certainly nowhere near bush's league...it's staggering how stupid bush is
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119 Tarquin
Gordon might be able to string two sentences together - but he is no economic powerhouse.
Gordon's economic and financial credentials, like Bush's, are in tatters - if you hadn't noticed.
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# 110
"I do expect public services to be better than private companies ... etc".
That was a profound statement.
In all my years, I'd never thought of it like that before, being so inured to whatever we English are 'given' via public services.
In my opinion, you are being completely fair with that statement.
In Denmark, where the people are taxed at eye-watering rates, we find the 'happiest people in Europe'.
The Danes are clearly getting excellent value for their public services, whilst we English plainly feel that we do not, hence a lot of the dissatisfaction with the current regime.
Somehow, I do no think that increasing tax levels to the rate that Danes pay would be any sort of solution for the English.
We have a different mentality and furthermore, simply do not do 'bureaucracy' very well.
I would say that the English simply need more opportunity to excise genuine freedom-of-choice, not faux 'choices' as carefully crafted within some political dogma.
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#118
Unfortunately I am also worried about the possibility of this lot postponing an election on spurious, "security" related issues, since they haven't hesitated to impose lots of limitations on our personal liberties in that fashion for some years now. If left in power, it will only be a matter of time before an ID card will be mandatroy if you wish to vote, presuming we are still allowed to have one.
There are times when it seems these blogs are the only practical way of expressing an opinion, and making others aware of it.
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#107
You may not have noticed, that N.Korea has said America has failed to keep their word, so N.Korea has asked UN staff to leave their nuclear sites.
You may not have noticed, that America has stopped Israel from attacking Iran AND Iraq.
Closed mind, you are a bit of a real live NED, unable to see the issues for your greedy approach to life.
I, my wife and my kids also pay tax, happily.
You make no-sense, you dont answer the problem(being the down turn) you just keep pushing the corporate greed of ill- informed tories.
By the way.....opium-head...can you not see the forrest for the trees.......
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Most of the comments seem to be coming from the infantile looney right, in general supporters of the louts that have created the crises and infested the world of high finance.
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Charles,
You say the Labour conference went well. If you mean in the sense that they managed to stop themselves from eating each other alive for the week then you are probably right, but what else did they present to us?
Basically, all I heard (although I expect you to tell me something like I was listening with the wrong ear) was the following:
Gordon 'apologising' for the 10p fiasco by saying that it really hurt him that people thought he wasn't being fair - well I'm sorry Gordon, you and your supporters keep telling us what a financial genius you are, and yet you claim to have had no idea that people would lose out when you doubled their tax rate. Some genius!
Gordon twisting his opponents words to complete distort their intended meaning and refusing to admit it when challenged. By the way Gordon, black is black and white is white (unless Zenman disagrees of course).
A bunch of policy aspirations and suggestions strewn around and left to flap with no seeming connection to them other than they cost a lot, had no indication where the funding would come from and won't start until well after the next general election.
One example for you - free school meals. One proposal is for all children to receive free school meals. This would obviously have to be paid for, probably by the local authorities. How would local authorities get the money? Well by cutting existing services or raising council tax. But then Gordon could say that it was local government doing this, not central government. You would also see a mysterious increase of funding to labour local authorities, paid for by a decrease in funding to non-labour ones. The big kicker is it would not just cost the food. There would be all the admin costs as well, which tends to at least double most things this government touches. So, instead of paying a fiver a week for lunch, parents would be told they were all 5 quid better off because lunches were free, but they would all be paying 10 pounds more per week in council tax. The poor get poorer, and Gordon blames it on local Tory government.
Anyway, back to the point. Tell us where it actually went well then Charles, and I mean for the public at large, not those present in the hall.
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brown may have his critics, but he is at least a clever bloke
A bit like his 'prudent' management of the economy I think this reputation for 'cleverness' is a full-on 'Emporer's new clothes' deal.
I see no evidence at all that he is clever. All I see is an arrogant sociopath. He relies on societies deference to anybody who projects themselves as confident or knowledgeable. A very low bar at any event in the Labour party.
We have all been had.
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Now, did Gordy find his way to the US with his moral compass, about which we heard a lot last year, but nothing recently, and is he going to "Try his utmost" as he promised last year, or is he "planning to do better", as he promised last week?
Raises an interesting philosophical question, when you've tried your utmost, is there any room for possible improvement?
Still, like all politicians, Gordy is not going to let truth and logic get in the way of a good soundbite or, as in his trip to NY, photo opportunities.
Interestingly, it also answers the question I posed about where was he going to go in an attempt to upstage the tory conference.
Watch carefully for when the whole thing blows up in his face, as it will, because he's getting too close to failure, yet again.
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120 jonathan_cook wrote:
119 Tarquin
Gordon might be able to string two sentences together - but he is no economic powerhouse.
Gordon's economic and financial credentials, like Bush's, are in tatters - if you hadn't noticed.
---
oh i know, don't get me wrong - i'm no fan of brown or his policies, but i give credit where it's due and he is at least able to read and write, he and blair, thatcher, even major - all clever people, you can respect that they have a degree of intelligence about them, no matter about the politics - my point is that george bush is an absolute simpleton, i mean can you imagine a person *that* stupid as our PM, even the inbred royals are smarter - you would have to be in jade goody's region to think of a person comparable, just think of that as an election prospect - it's mind-boggling
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Most of the comments seem to be coming from the infantile looney right, in general supporters of the louts that have created the crises and infested the world of high finance.
Yet again we see the epitome of apparatchik denial. Labour has been in government for the last eleven years. Gordon Brown has spent all but the last six months boasting 'no more boom and bust'. But now the excessive borrowing and squandering has come home to roost it's all the Tories fault.
It reminds me of those mums who just cannot believe that their little Troy, what they brought up by 'and, has turned into a mad-axe serial killer.
'My Troy wouldn't do that, he's a lovely boy'.
Well, here's the video he made of himself doing it Mrs Muldoon.
'Naaaah. It's just not like him. It was the drugs wot made him do it.'
Labour apologists are the same.
Gordon Brown is bang to rights. He's destroyed the economy, he's doubled (almost) national debt, he let the largest housing bubble in recorded history happen under his nose on his watch.
But we still have an army of apologists giving it 'My boy's not like that. He wouldn't do that. He loves his mum'.
Well he did do it. And you have only to open your eyes. The proof is everywhere.
Don't be blaming 'The Tories' or the 'loony right'. Your boy Gordon wrecked this economy all by himself.
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#123
Mr Barker, I'm not sure which forest you can't see for the trees that you keep putting up, so to speak.
The economic downturn is real. It may be global, but try telling that to someone without a job and no prospects, but doesn't remove the need for the government of the day to take action. When that government has been busily painting itself into a financial corner, and has no room for manouevre, its only recourse is to throw its hands up in the air and spout platitudes "our economy is well placed to withstand pressure", "everybody else is in the same boat", "we're taking the right long term decisions for the country" etc.
So, we are in a financial mess (that's the wood), and it will take money to solve the problem - money that we can no longer raise in taxes (because the economy is shrinking, and the taxees are beginning to revolt) nor borrow, because we have extended public sector borrowing (liabilities, if you wish to use a different term to take into account PFI) beyond safe and sensible limits. The government, with all the actions it has taken and its inability to do anything else, are the trees that are obscuring the wood.
Bring on the axeman, and chop them down.
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As someone with no particular political affiliation, it is quite amusing to see both main parties looking completely red-faced in this situation:
Labour : "trust us, look at how well we've done" - oh, maybe not...
Conservatives : "we have a solution - more free market capitalism" - oh, maybe not...
Other parties stand to benefit from this. Lib Dems (if they can push Vince Cable to the fore), Scots Nats, Plaid Cymru. Interesting times!
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For those who continually blame Capitalism, bankers, greed etc. for this problem, while absolving governments of any responsibility for what happened overlook reality.
As part of deliberate policy over the past few years,they kept interest rates artificially low by ignoring inflation in the property market( all the while complaining of the lack of affordable housing) unleashing a flood of cheap money into the market.
Low interest rates made cash saving pointless, tax changes to pensions reduced their desirability and stocks were to volatile to invest in.
This meant the money had only two places to go, property and cheap imports
Large scale immigration depressed wages and gave a ready supply of young people willing to live cheek to jowell in buy to let flats springing up in all our cities.
It is that economic model that is slowly collapsing in Britain not capitalism
Gordon Brown was the architect of that model, still sees nothing wrong in it and as a consequence cannot repair it. At least the Conservatives recognise it's gone wrong, even if they don't seem to have found away to fix it
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re: 124 braveSouter
"Most of the comments seem to be coming from the infantile looney right, in general supporters of the louts that have created the crises and infested the world of high finance."
I see Derek Draper has already started his blog attack then. Welcome to the blogging world, derek (or are you just one of his paid minions?)
It's comments like that (ie attacks along the vein of "thatcher wasn't nice" and "it's all other people's fault") which are contributing to labour's downfall; you'd do well to change tack and start using reason/argument rather than blind hatred of anyone who doesn't agree with what you say.
Remember that Brown was the person in charge of regulating the uk financial system, and he actively encouraged the "louts" that you talk about.
As for Brown's jaunt to see Bush, I'm guessing he got his way because he sulked about nobody wanting to see him, so his team managed to convince Bush to see him for a couple of minutes just to help prop-up the uk/us special relationship. I think Bush is just humouring him.
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#126
Totally agree. This will be the biggest Emperor's new clothes story in history.
Sadly, he'll take the country down with him.
If things were so great the pond would be rallying strongly against the $ where "this problem began" (Gordon Brown's words not mine). Instead the pound is still weak.
He might think he can fool a few voters with free school meals and computers but he won't fool the currency markets. They will be his undoing.
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There's a lot of cleverness and grudges around here. Mostly, that's just so much clinging. I can see why Ieyasu Tokugawa brought down his iron fist and established Zen as the official religion of feudal Japan. Watch out for trade protection measures and disestablishment of the Anglican Church. Oh, whoopsie.
I'm insanely relaxed about Dear Leader. His mind is as smooth as glass, as hard as diamond, and as brilliant as the sun. One gasps, nay, gapes at such magnificence. One is giddy with delight and almost falling to the floor with humbleness. I'm sure, if I didn't have a such a skin toughened by the misery of my own base existence I wouldn't be able to contain myself.
So, yes. I'm laughing at adversity and giggling at the nasty Tories rending themselves into so many pieces they are blown away by the wind and fall like dust to the ground. Be happy! Dance! Enjoy life. It's to short to get wrapped up with those scowlers. Run! Hide! Leap out from behind them and shout "Boo!" Cuz, life is art and death is life. Hurrah!
Um, banzai.
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It's a plain fact that nobody really likes a braggart. Anyone who is constantly bigging themselves up and boasting about their achievements in the hope that it will become true is deluding themselves hugely.
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Browns Britain
New report published by the Department for Work and Pensions.
In total, there are more than three million households in the UK with nobody working.
A total of 1.77million children – one in seven of under- 16s – are now growing up in welfare-dependent homes
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#135
Is there a village out there missing it's idiot? He's here, masquerading as a pseud named Hardwidge, or is that Hardwedge, and should we deliver one to him?
Um, Banzai.
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# 131
I too do not have a political affiliation/affliction.
The most recent Populus poll shows no great enthusiasm for the Tories, in fact, the whole Tory poll lead is down to disaffection with Labour.
So, on current ratings, no Tory 'landslide' then come the General Election.
I suspect that the surprise might be that the Lib-Dems edge out Labour in enough places to maybe end up the second biggest party at Westminster.
I'm really looking forward the General Election after that.
Which hopefully it will be an England only job, and we start to see a more representative political mix in England e.g. apart from the usual Tories, Lib-Dems and a recast 'proper' Labour party with a genuine socialist at its head, maybe somebody like Alan Johnson ... we also see some much needed newcomers, i.e. English Democrats, independents, Greens and others.
If you think that that is a possible scenario, then there is quite a lot that is positive, in the political sense, for the English to look forward to.
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Everyone is fond of putting their opinion of others on here to discredit one side or another.
Most people if left to their own devices discredit themselves. as below
"the government would be stronger if cabinet members will spend a little bit more time supporting than some of them appear to be spending yacking to journalists". He yacked.
Interviewed on BBC Two's Daily Politics, Mr Prescott
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Asked about the announcement of her departure, Ms Kelly said: "I have some doubts about the way it was handled. But it is better to have it all settled now."
Downing Street has denied it was behind the news, insisting it "leaked out".
I guess the leak is due to that repair job Gordon did on the roof then!
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135. Charles_E_Hardwidge
Banzai! 10,000 years!!! No Charles. He might just have 10,000 hours.
I think you might have meant Banzai cliff
That would be a lot more pertinent.
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derekb
"Closed mind, you are a bit of a real live NED, unable to see the issues for your greedy approach to life."
Sorry that you believe I have a greedy approach to life. Not sure how you developed that notion.
"I, my wife and my kids also pay tax, happily."
And I'm very happy to see my taxes well spent on good people, doing great things on our behalf. There are many of them. And I admire them.
If you read what I wrote, you'd find that I knock the administrative burden, not the people who struggle to work out what the heck this government wants them to do.
"You make no-sense, you dont answer the problem(being the down turn) you just keep pushing the corporate greed of ill- informed tories."
I'm not sure how you develop your opinions.
The down-turn is caused by a credit-crunch. That followed a credit-boom. The boom was permitted by poor control over financial services - and in the UK, by a regime that failed to stop personal debt ballooning as it's never done before. In fact, credit could have been controlled if the government wanted that. But, if you prefer to collect taxes, it's easier to let individuals and companies to borrow, so you can tax what they spend.
I hardly think it's pushing corporate greed, when I said that it may be a good idea to take out some of the greed-merchants "to encourage the others". (That by the way, was from the French writer Voltaire, in his novel Candide, after the English Admiral Byng was executed for "not trying hard enough"...)
There are plenty of greedy people in private and public life. Quite a number of them helped to create "New Labour". (Any new jobs or houses this week, Tony B?) Frankly, I don't give a damn which party anyone supports. I don't like greed from any party.
"By the way.....opium-head...can you not see the forrest for the trees......."
I do tobacco and alcohol, when I choose. Don't do any of the other stuff. Maybe you've confused me with Sherlock Holmes. (I believe he was based on a Scot. Shame you don't have the same forensic skills.)
The problem is that the wood seems to be growing. You let a few cabinet ministers develop "new ideas". And encourage junior ministers. "Empower" other agencies. They plant so many seeds that trees spring up. They need (or think they need) branches, then more. Eventually, the canopy overshadows the land and kills off real growth from more natural plants.
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A survey of 1,012 people for BBC Two's Daily Politics show suggests 36% trust Mr Brown and Mr Darling most to steer the UK's economy through the downturn.
So that means 64% of the population dont think they are most likely then!
For the sake of fairness It does go on to say
Some 30% opted for Conservative leader David Cameron and shadow chancellor George Osborne, while 5% chose Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg and Treasury spokesman Vince Cable.
So that means 29% that didnt go for anyone,thats one third for the statistically challenged
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Some folks can take a sober statement of achievement or difficulty and blow it up in their own mind into something arrogant or demanding. The thing is, they're so full of themselves that when someone else does something remarkable or is being screwed in the ass it gets twisted into something it isn't.
When I compare Gordon Browns fairly modest claims and attempts to calm the current difficulties, and how the Tories are so routinely shrill and patronising, it's pretty clear to me what folks have issues they need dealing with. If they put less of their ego between themselves and the world they might have an easier time and be less nasty than they are.
Get real. Wake up. Be happy.
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#139
Mr Constable your conclusion on the populus opinion poll is flawed, since the same thinking was in place in 1997, when people were significantly upset with the tories. That is not the case now.
Further, Labour has caused a headache for itself in Scotland where any protest vote will go to the SNP and not the other parties, which will significantly undermine its representation at Westminster.
Personally I hope the government would call an election now, but I'm not holding my breath.
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A computer disk containing the names and addresses of more than 11,000 teachers has gone missing in the post.
The General Teaching Council (GTC)'s letter to teachers said it went missing after being sent from Rotherham via Parcelforce to its Birmingham office.
Another day another data loss!
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Unlike Britain, the US and many other countries, France appears to be weathering the credit crunch storm in reasonable shape.
And Gordon tells us sanctimoniously that Britain is best placed to weather the crisis.
Do we presume therefore that we along with British Energy have been sold to the French!
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You were fine up until here. The problem is your celeverness and feelings are blocking the view, so you can't see the new growth that's developing. I tend to blame corporate lawyering and media manipulation but they're no more or less guilty than anything else.
This is normal in any population when faced with anything. It's just the way things are. You can lean on modern surveys and supercomputers but Doaists knew this 6000 years ago. PR folks aren't going to like this but PR versus first past the post is a red herring. Analysis suggests it doesn't make an atom of difference. This is why quality is important, and that's a little more subtle.
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Ordinary working class mum, mortgaged to the hilt - might be a bit naive but why are governments bailing out what are effectively private businesses - any company which flagrantly demonstrates such ineptness should be nationalised prior to any rescue package thus ensuring shareholders, executives et al do not 'ring fence' one penny of what is effectively mine and your money?
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....and the sign on the White House lawn says:
'KEEP OFF THE GRASS. NO TORIES ALLOWED BEYOND THIS 'GRASSY KNOWL'.(George Bush jnr, President).
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#149
nice to know that newlabour put something that "doesn't make an atom of difference" as a manifesto pledge in 1997.
Just like the rest of their manifesto pledges, stability, no more repossessions, vote on the Eu constitution.
In fact as a government they don't seem to make an atom of difference either; no real growth incomes, no reduction in child poverty, millions of people still on benefits, pensioners having to eat their own dust before being granted any winter fuel allowance.
What's the purpose of newlabour except to grandstand about caring and inclusion and do nothing about it?
Newlabour, old rhetoric. Not making an atom of difference - excepth the atom bomb they let off of private and public sector debt.
Call an election.
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The plus side is the business, and skills and spending power of employees is kept intact while regulatory and cultural improvements are identified, created, and encouraged.
The government has created a single point of contact for pensioners to claim their due but the media write this up as a failure by not going far enough.
Folks need to get that between goals and outcomes lies a thing called process. It can take time to understand and fix a problem. Rushing things just lays the ground for another nightmare.
It's a truism of martial arts that the inexperienced tend to force or rush things. They only hurt themselves or land on their ass. Better just relax and take it as it comes.
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I just love the fact that we were all led to believe that Gordon was jetting off to save the Global Financial Industry and how when it came down to it all he was doing was having a a UN Development meeting.
That's spin for you!!
The Prime Minister of the UK could not even get a meeting with 'Leader of the Free World' Oh how the the mightly have fallen.
Winston Churchill would turn in his grave!
At least he doesn't look too much like a fool. Thank goodness George is going to see him.... Now!
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153
Better just relax and take it as it comes.
Translation form the unenlightened
Just relax, and let the attitude of low expectations take over.
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#148 - Pot_Kettle
I wonder if not having to panic about where the electricity is going to come from if the oil dries up has something to do with it?
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# 146
I do not hesitate to revise my opinion(s) when confronted with the facts.
Previously I had assumed that there would be a Tory landslide (maybe the majority Tory posts on these forums had affected my judgement a bit).
But the political professional analyst Peter Riddell, who writes in the Times today, made the conclusions that I echoed.
So, I respectfully suggest you take up your 'flawed conclusion' with him.
PS. I am English, living in England and thus am not interested much in political Scotland (or Wales), in the same sense that an American would not be particularly interested in political Canada.
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Anyone curious to know why Gordon Brown was campaigning for joint action by Germany the US and the UK for aid on chilfd poverty?
Because if three countires act together they can keep the debt off balance sheet...
And what was the response of the US and the Germans? This is dishonest accounting, Gordon....
And you really think this is the man to lead us through diffcult times - someone who is accused by his international peers of attempting dishonest accounting?
I don't.
Call an election.
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So what, there will not be any use for this country except wasting money on this trip.
All I want to know is what action our PM is going to take to resolve this crisis in UK. If he cannot he should give way to some one else who can.
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The sands are a shifting
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That's what you want people to feel, but that's the lowest and most miserable form of persuasion. Does it make you feel happy and delighted? This is quite shameful and typical of Tories. What you need to realise is how it only hurts yourself in the end.
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Carrots
I know its good sport but why do you respond to charlie hogwash?
The blog has been a lot better in his absence, at least the other side had some contributors that were worth responding too without have to scroll past 100ft of Hogwarts magic
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It is all very jolly poking fun at our leaders but, to be serious for a moment, is it not the case that however clever they are intellectually or adept they may be in practical terms, once the population generally has reached the point where they perceive these people as punchlines for jokes, the battle is lost.
I have no idea how reflective this blog of wider public opinion but, if it is any kind of guide, many seem to have reached the point where Brown is simply a joke. How can he possibly survive that?
If you care to cast your eye over some American blogs, you will see similar views about Bush abound. It really does not matter if Messrs. Bush and Brown can cobble together anything useful this evening because at best it will be seen as the blind leading the blind and at worst Little and Large on speed.
It may be extremely unfair but they are a busted flush. Public opinion has done for them.
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@156
A lot has to do with the regulation of their financial system where no one not even the banks are allowed to borrow beyond their means.
It does mean their growth has been a little slower and they havent paid off all their government debt, but they now dont face recession so they can continue to pay their debt off unliike Gordon's Britain which is goign to have to borrow more just to pay the interest
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Oh for goodness sake, Gordon Brown, give us a break...you were the one who said 'the days of spin are over' and here you are (about as vital to the process of solving the wholesale debt crisis as a steak sandwich at a vegetarian convention) attempting to convince us that you are a vital element in attempts to 'save the global economy'.
Gordon, wake up. NO ONE LISTENS TO YOU ANY MORE....!
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#86
Duncan Balantines support for brown was that he was a sincere bloke who really cares about the poor, and he give a lot to charity.
Well, regardless of browns sincerity or otherwise he is clearly incompetent. whatever brown believes, he is incapable of delivering, so his integrity is irrelevant (whether or not he has any).
Regarding 'charity' -- it is like Blair wearing a plastic bracelet to support a cause -- the IDIOT missed the point that the bracelets were to send a message TO HIM(!).
If the PM can afford to give chairities substantial support then he is paid too much, and if he really cares about the cause he has far more power in his hands than to throw money at it.
And regarding millionairs in general -- they will be comfortable regardless of who is in power - whereas my situation (day to day living, budgeting, self-employed, family and kids etc) is massivle impacted by government policy.
Give me a couple of million and I won't care who is in power either...
(ok in truth I would care because I have a strong belief in personal freedom - which socialism seeks to destroy).
The nutters running this country, don't have the first idea of the level of stress their smug, nagging, badgering, taxing, nosey, needelling interfering causes - no wonder so many people are drinking so much and families are breaking down. Get these burdensom nannies off our backs!
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As I've commented in a previous post, that's pretty much correct. But, Labour have done an end run of that and it loses its power after a while. You can only disrupt and upset people for so long before it starts to numb. When they realise the whole thing was just another illusion the tide begins to turn. And so on, and so forth.
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162. Pot_Kettle
OK sorry.
Will cease..... for now.
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# 160
They are indeed.
I am not very interested in these so-called mainstream parties but it does make good spectator sport.
What is going on here, in my opinion, is a developing split between 'Blairite' Labour and what is rapidly becoming known as 'real' Labour.
As NL has hit a tricky moment, the inherent contradications of NL ('modernisers' .v. 'traditionalists') are bubbling to the surface.
I was looking ahead from this in a previous post and evisiging that post the General Election, when Labour will probably be pretty battered, the 'real' Labour wing will assert itself and reclaim control of the party.
Hence my suggestion that 'traditionalist' Alan Johnson or similiar ends up as Labour leader.
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I generally add value and cut folks slack, and enough of what I say is reflected in the media and ripped off by you guys. Maybe, instead of trying to put me down you tried making an effort yourself things would go better instead of this blog resembling a failed state. It's not too hard to acknowledge someones contribution or be nice, unless yer chicken.
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U9461192 @118,
I love your comparison of Brown to the psychologically flawed (damaged) Smeagol/Deagol who later bacame Gollum.
In this instance Smeagol/Brown did not quite murder Deagol/Blair, but he did 'get rid of him' and now possesses the 'Ring of Power' - though he knows not how to use it - and it is corrupting him to the core.
A short note from the National Encyclopeadia for the year 2040:
In his latter years he could be found obsessively arranging and rearranging his nail-bitten hands on the remnants of an antique despatch box while endlessly muttering "My Precious! My Precious!"
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@168
;-)
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C_E_H
Well, thank you Charles.
"You were fine up until here. The problem is your celeverness and feelings are blocking the view, so you can't see the new growth that's developing. I tend to blame corporate lawyering and media manipulation but they're no more or less guilty than anything else."
Fine up to here...
The extract you selected was actually the very last paragraph of what I wrote.
Do you presume to know what I may have considered writing after that? Boy, you Zen guys really do have powers...
And I "can't see the new growth that's developing".
Well, enlighten me and all of us, Charles.
What have you spotted that others haven't?
I'd endorse a government of any political persuasion that's creating an environment for any positive growth. That would be good for children and their descendants.
But I can't see what growth you refer to. (I guess I should have written "to which you refer", but it is only a throw away web site...)
Just cut to the chase and explain things you believe in, or have spotted as beneficial.
I happen to believe that there is enormous potential within the UK. Despite a lack of genuine education for children.
You don't like "media manipulation". Well, I didn't much like the Blair / Brown / Mandelson / Campbell regime. But, as far as I can see, that was the most manipulative regime that has ever occurred in the UK.
It will take a long time for the media to get over the abuses from this administration.
By the way, my "cleverness and feelings are blocking the view" is another bit of remote garbage.
My sister is clever. (BSc, MA Cantab - very nice person from a fairly humble background.) I managed to screw up my formal education. But still manage to deal with people with Firsts or PHDs. You can do that if you accept and understand reality, rather than living in a remote academic world.
I feel that GB comes from an academic, rather than practical, background. Like Balls and Cooper. That's why we are in a mess.
My feelings are very much in favour of people who have less than me, (which is not really a lot) who try to improve their positions in life. Even those who choose to spend their child allowance on a plasma TV, instead of encylopaedias for the kids.
What has this mob done to encourage education? That's not the same as gaining exam results, as I'm sure you would agree.
I think the Jesuits said (to paraphrase) "Give me a boy until he is seven and I will give you the man".
We've had 11 years of "new thinking" education. Do you expect a new generation of brilliance? For goodness sake, 20percent of children are functionally illiterate and innumerate.
My feelings do influence my political stance.
My feelings are that GB is probably a very nice and clever guy, who is doing a job he is not cut out for. Not sure his previous job was truly within his grasp.
And, by the way, when you say that folks' knees tremble when Steve Jobs is unhealthy
I think you go a little over the top. Don't really give a damn about Jobs. It was a Brit who created the means for the WWW to get up and running.
How many big corporate or government departments rely on Job's input? Not a lot.
Come on Charles. Drop all that pretentious crap and spell out what you see as good and bad. The UK's economic fundamentals are way off, you say.
OK. So what should we/they be doing?
Or do you want to sell your ideas, like so many consultancy organisations? If someone would select you.
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Who did the spoof Chuck_E_Hogwash @135?
Was that you U? Or you JohnConstable?
C'mon - 'fess up!
It's not fair to impersonate a fellow blooger, no matter how duff their opinions.
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My view is the extremists on the left and right are trying it on. Mostly, I think, Labour is resolving its issues. On the Tory side, they're hiding it but they need to grasp their inherent selfishness, and the Liberals need a sense of reality.
Folks tend not to listen and get upset if you do say anything, but reality has a way of teaching people. It's a simple thing to understand but complicated to explain. It's another reason why Zen Buddhism, basically, tells you to shut up.
Maybe, Prescott is a closet Buddhist? o_O
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# 174
I am English and try to hold onto quaint English customs of fair play and decency.
Therefore, I would never impersonate anybody else.
Identity theft is a crime.
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@176
Identity theft is a crime.
Does this mean We can get Gordon Brown thrown in the tower?
He impersonated a chancellor of the exchequer for 10 years and has now done one year impersonating a Prime minister
Neither of which he is in reality.
He is a small town University professor with a History degree who lectured in politics,
That certainly doesnt a PM make.
Gordon is always harping on about educating the children so that they have the write qualifications for the future situation. May I suggest that he attends the LSE and gets an economic degree before giving anyone else any economic advice, That is supposing he can pass their entrance exam, which on the past 11 years performance seems unlikely.
We are talking about a buffoon here who said publically at conference last week that he didnt realise that the poor would be upset about their tax rate going from 10% to 20%, did he really think that he had the low paid that convinced of his economic might that they would bend over and take it from him...."no no Gordon please take more"
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148 Pot_Kettle wrote:
Unlike Britain, the US and many other countries, France appears to be weathering the credit crunch storm in reasonable shape.
And Gordon tells us sanctimoniously that Britain is best placed to weather the crisis.
Do we presume therefore that we along with British Energy have been sold to the French!
---
France is weathering the credit crunch - primarily because it isn't exposed to much credit - the french are very conservative when it comes to money - whereas we've been using our credit cards for everything they stuck to cash, likewise they have tough regulations on mortgages and other credit
whilst this has made them ok in the face of the 'credit crunch' - France has been pretty much bankrupt for years, very slow growth because they didn't get in on the boom like we did, they are 'sluggish' according to presumably that same article that you read, and will remain so for some time
it's six of one, half a dozen of the other - we're just concentrating our misery whereas they drag it out
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Gordon Brown has called for an end to the "age of irresponsibility",
Cool does this mean he is admitting that he wasnt prudent and was irresponsible and is going to resign?
He told the UN: "This cannot just be national anymore. We must have global supervision...
I think he means that he is expecting a knock on the door from the IMF asking him where there money is. Additionally he is saying that he is incapable of regulating the UK as he has already proven over his last 11 years of oversight
Mr Brown advocated a "new global order, founded on transparency, not opacity".
Oooh that should prove interesting does this mean he is going to put all the PFI on the books so that we can transparently see how deep he has put us in it.
No we arent that lucky. He means everyone else must do this and he is going to stay in his bunker not resign and not resolve the crisis that his mucky paw prints are all over.
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Expanding on the points made by 173, I really cannot understand why people think that having a high level of intellectual ability and the associated academic record means someone is a leader.
I have considerable experience of working with people in career development situations and find that people with degrees/prizes scattered all over their CVs are often unemployable. The reasons:
1.
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Confirming some of the points in 173 above, I really cannot understand why anyone should think a high level of academic ability and a PhD are qualifications for leadership.
I have considerable experience of working with people in career development situations and find that people with CVs scattered with degrees and academic prizes are too often virtually unemployable. The reasons?
1. They cannot communicate.
2.
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180 and 181 dwwonthew
Most of my professional life was spent in academia, I worked and socialised with many professors and philosophers. I seriously believe that at least 65-70% of them were seriously mentally flawed and whilst employed giving lectures or tutorials, their ability to cause damage to others was restricted.
Philosophers, in particular were deranged to a level which often required medication, their suicide attempts becoming boring in their regularity.
My old Nanny, a constant source of wisdom had a theory. "Too much book learning, they read too many books. Need some real exercise to open up their bowels!"
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Phoenix @ 182
What is a "Nanny"? ... your grandmother I'm thinking you mean, right?
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JC @ 176
A question I've been meaning to ask you, John ... you're not, by any chance, English are you?
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Robin @ 158
Robin, I'm seeing you as a man of late middle age with a much loved (but little driven) Triumph Spitfire in the garage ... is that even anywhere close?
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Carrots @ 160
Tweed jacket?
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Max @ 174
Bit of a loner, right? ... bit, I don't know, "prickly" ...
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183. sagamix
My invalid grandmother was far too grand to be called Nanny or Nan. Nanny was the kind old lady who raised by mother and then took over caring for me.
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183, 184, 185, 186, 187 sagamix
A wee bit nosey?......Curiosity killed the cat!
Only joking, mate, how shall we categorise you?
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189
Sad and Lonely
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# 184
I am English but it is reasonable for you to point out that it does not need to be repeated ad nauseam.
Otherwise I'd be in danger of falling in the same trap as Gordon Brown, forever banging on about 'Britain/British'.
At least England has a future, unlike 'Britain'.
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186. sagamix
No.... way out... who knows may be in 30 years time.
Have another go.
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183. sagamix
Oh yes... A nanny is staff.
Hey ho, home time. (another clue)
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In response to MaxSceptic @ 80...who wrote:
'Thank you for repeating the salient points of my post @30.
I presume, therefore, that you agree with me. (Otherwise what is the point of your post?)'
Never mind:-)
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sagamix @187,
Neither a loner nor 'prickly'. Maybe I just get a kick out of being abusive to Nu Labour supporters. Some people play golf, others trombone in a brass band. Me, I like kicking Brown when he's down and deriding anyone stupid, delusional or wicked enough to want him and his government to continue in power.
Hey, can't a man have a hobby?
(And no, I couldn't care less who or what you or any of the other bloggers are. Except for Chuck E Hogwash of course: I have a morbid fascination in delusional types).
Nite nite.
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Calling people names and smearing them is a cheap way of getting attention. You wouldn't do it if you didn't think I had value worth stealing. This approach is backfiring on Cameron and you're no different.
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Chuck E Hogwash @196
You have "value worth stealing"???
Once again, I repeat: delusional.
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Max @ 195
Oh well be like that then ... I was going to tell you a little bit about myself but I won't now.
Carrots @ 192
Okay. So maybe I've got you and Robin the wrong way round ... you have the Spitfire! ... in BRG and in decent nick, although not quite mint?
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182 pheonixarison,
What a great post,best laugh I've had for months that really is funny.
Not ever having worked with academia my experience has been through my career as a boatbuilder and it amounts to two rather tragic suicides and a nutter who was a professer in charge of a mental home, whose theory was that people with mental problems should live in the grounds of the mental home and build structures similar to wig wams, where they would live happily for the rest of their lives. I think it lasted about two weeks before these poor folk begged to go back inside to the safety of the hospital.
It became debatable whether the patients should put the professer out to graze and let the patients run the hospital.
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191 john constable at times I am in general adreement with you,what I don't understand is your attitude to Britain or I shuld say the UK your assumtion that the UK is about to break up is totally wrong.
The only way the UK will break up is if the Tories are elected as the Scots are fed up to the teeth with the tories and have no love for them so if Alex holds a referendum immediatly after a Tory victory the Scots will be gone, but dont discount Wales as its highly improbable that Plaid will take over Wales, and NI will stay within the union you can bet your life.
So England will not stand alone and if they did it certainly would not be to there advantage as with the fuel crisis deepening I can see mining reopening in Wales and I can see the English rushing to exploit Wales once again.
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144 pot kettle.
And that tells us?
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#199 grandantidote
Glad you laughed, really we should be crying when we consider poor ill people are at the mercy of these experts. On one occasion I mistook the person in charge of the section as a dangerous inmate who had escaped from the closed unit, and I called security. His resulting outrage lead to him being sedated and placed in isolation!
My last position, when I was already semi-retired was in a residential home for disturbed young adults. The most disturbed and disruptive people were the assistant head nurse who became violent with her own children, and a mental health graduate who commited suicide in the patients' sitting room. Better stop now, as I will bore you all with sad tales.
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Responding to MaxSceptic (30)
Are you responding for the sake of arguing?
If not, you didn't get the original message by fknose (19), neither the irony in his replies (80, 194). To refer to your comment, all the people you mention are of course part of "the rich". So is this an excuse for not trying to alleviate the plight of the poor? I hope you are not offended if I assume that you have never been poor and subjected to the humiliations associated whith this state. I suggest you try to view things from a different perspective. What do other people think?
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lookingforsense @203 wrote:
"Are you responding for the sake of arguing?"
Answer: occasionally, yes (Do you want the 3 minute or the 5 minute argument?).
I am not offended by your assumption that I have never been poor, but you are wrong.
I have no problem with individuals and voluntary charities trying to alleviate poverty in Africa and elsewhere. (For all you know even I may be a modest contributer to private charities operating in africa).
My argument is with state aid and so-called 'development' money (all from taxpayers, of course, as the 'state' doesn't have any other kind of money).
Somebody (P.J. O'Rourke?) once defined state aid as 'taking money from poor people in rich countries and giving it to rich people in poor countries'. Nothing I have seen in my experience indicates much to the contrary.
What really helps the poor is good, honest governance, the rule of law, free trade and a judicial system that upholds commercial contracts. Compare and contrast the rise of once very poor nations such as Korea and Malaysia with the decline of once wealthy nations such as Zimbabwe over the past 50 years.
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198. sagamix
Like Id buy a British car.
I dont buy cars just to polish them.
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#204 MaxSceptic
Agree on all points.
When I see dictators in Africa being driven around in expensive cars, whilst women with resignation in their eyes hold starving, dying babies in their arms I feel rage. Government funded aid is a political statement, the officials who give OUR money probably know it will never reach the needy, but is given for cynical reasons to either buy "friends" or obtain favours.
To really help the needy, contributions to private charities, who have workers on the spot, achieve the greatest value.
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206. Phoenixarisen and Max
Its not just the local dictators who take advantage. You go to a town and your pretty much certain to find that the catholic priest drives the best car and lives in the finest house.
The practice of charging people for attending church or praying for sick or dying relatives is big business.
Africa needa trade and not aid.
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202 pheonixarison Our occasional spells of being amicable to one and other are like to Brits and Germans playing football on Christmas day WW1, back to our trenches I guess.
They were good tales though.
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11 Flaming Patsy, I am doing my best to be grammaticaly correct. which is difficult as you say for a boy with a diadvantaged upbringing, I have looked in the Oxford dictionary but couln't find this, so perhaps you can enlighten this poor ignorrant peasant and tell me what
"It's sooooo scary." means.
75 Its hard to believe that you spoke to a young South African man, and harder to believe that you took his word as gospel.
"Why are so many of us emigrating to Australia, Canada etc.? To get away from this mess."
When are you leaving? soon I hope.
"My daughter travels there a lot on business and is always relieved to be back home in England because, she says, they are all very false over there. "
The USA that is, she's not a diplomat then?.
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39 Pheonixarison,
After seeing Palin in a rather nice swimsuit in the paper this morning which was more typical of my era she could have me in her sights for anything she likes.
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43 Max Septic
I surpprised that there are any words that are inadmissable to you on these bloggs you seem to get away with just about every unpleasant word you write, and there's plenty of them .
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#210
Better not let either Mrs Grandidote nor Mrs Phoenixarisen see this posting!
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212 Pheonixarison I dont know about Mrs P
but Mrs G thinks" Oh! Bless him he still remembers."
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213
Whatever our politics, when it comes to crunch, us more mature guys must preserve unity. See my latest blog (before its removed) on End of Age of Responsibility!
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213. grandantidote and Phoenixarisen
Not sure I should be doing this, dont want to cause to much excitement:
Oh heck here goes..........
Sarah Palin with a large gun
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Sorry lads, slight technical difficulty
Try again
Sarah Palin with her large gun
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216 carrots I thought I'd better sleep on that one, so I did!.
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