Shock news
Gordon Brown, it has emerged, does not believe "it is time to adapt and rethink" the way he has been operating as prime minister. This was, however, the impression created by an article written for the, somewhat obscure, Parliamentary Monitor magazine.
No 10 is now making it clear that Mr Brown was promising merely to adapt and rethink the policies of the past which are no longer appropriate for the new economic challenges.
To decode, he is promising to rethink Blairism and not Brownism, as many people assumed when the article appeared. There has been much speculation that Gordon Brown is about to humbly unveil a rethink of his approach. This is not it.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~31~RS~)
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Now he can't even make a speech without it being 'clarified' five minutes later by his advisors.
Is this man an accident, a disaster or a catastrophe? Probably all three but he certainly he should not remain our prime minister.
he doesn't know what he thinks except he wants the job he patently can't do.
Resign.
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Who is writing for our leaders these days? We have had Milliband talking about 'enormous values' - which is totally meaningless.
GB really shouldn't need to issue clarification as to what he meant in a newly published article that bears his name. Though from the experience of decoding his budgets, the detail was never in the actual text.
Surely if you were going to relaunch, you woud get the the basics right.
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The whole party's lost the plot. General Election now.
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The policy of carry on regardless is hardly a shock to us Nick.
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Nick,
My spies inside Labour tell me that part of the re-think / re-launch is as follows....
Ed Balls is going to change his name by deed poll to "Sarah Palin" and he will be branded to the public at large as the "English Bulldog with Lipstick".
.... there are doubts inside Labour that Blair, with his Iraqi war, was sufficiently "right wing Christian fundamentalist". Brown intends to take that ground for himself.
We've seen the Palin bounce in the US polls. It is going to be interesting to see if Brown and Balls can pull this off in the UK.
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If I were Crash Gordon I wouldn't waste my time rethinking Bliarism, Brownism or any adaptation of either as both have ill-served this country in the long run. In any event he has only 600 days before being booted out which is no where near enough time to implement any form of adaptation.
All this is a desparate last throw of the dice to spin Crash a new image for himself ahead of the poltical gallows being prepared at his conference and most certainly by the electorate.
No, what Labour needs is many years in opposition to re-energise, re-think and adapt rather than making policy and policy U-turns on the hoof!
The game is up for them and the best GB can do is plaigurise the words of Sir David Steel for his conference speech and proclaim at the end..............I am ashamed to be the shortest serving Labour Prime Minister to say to conference......go back to your constituencies and prepare for opposition!"
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Unfortunately, and as usual, Brown's statement is words, words, words and nothing more.
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You have to laugh. No wonder I'm confused. Though Brown and Blair were a duo until the straight man was left standing alone with no script.
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I currently feel that I am in a parallel universe. Maybe I may find out which one when tomorrow they start up the Large Hadron Collider. I wonder which universe Gordon inhabits.
This is getting seriously unreal because at least when I say what I do then I don't have to issue a clarification within five minutes.
I say what I mean and I mean what I say.
What worries me most of all is that this Prime Minister, who paid for the wars Blair has been involved in since 1997, is now supposed to be in charge. We know that our soldiers no longer fight for Queen and Country they fight wars for failed politicians.
I am shocked at the state to which this country has fallen. It is an insult to banana republics, we are even worse than that.
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If it's a novel idea in the eyes of labour to keep informed of current events while you're running the country, then that explains quite nicely why the economy's currently in the toilet.
The world constantly changes; you adapt to it or you die. Labour have failed to adapt, or even understand what's going on for eleven years, and their time for total extinction is nigh.
Openly admitting that they haven't understood or done anything about anything for eleven years is basically a political suicide note. Thank goodness they've admitted it. Let's hope they follow through and hold a general election before they do any more damage.
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Although this is hardly new for Labour. Blair did much the same.
Humpty Dumpty for PM?
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We don't need any "clarification" of what he thought he might possibly have meant to say. We just need him to realise that no-one wants him any more and he should resign. Is that clear enough for you Gordon?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
No wonder he looks so awful. If this is the totality of his summer of brooding and nothingness then may God have mercy on us all.
The thing that is not working is the government entirely and this man's complete lack of understanding of what he is doing is making the whole mess even worse. The best thing he could do for Labour and the country is resign and allow a General Election before Labour is forced to actually stop being a political party owing to lack of presence in parliament and a lack of funds.
Election now please
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GB writes: "We need to be honest with ourselves", and, "this is not about rhetoric", after a spiel of denial about the state of Britain and his ability and deservedness to solve it. Heal thyself, physician.
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I can't help feeling that Mr Brown is genuine.
I am not a Labour supporter, but it is undeniable that M Brown has not really been in a position to implement the real changes that he has wanted to.
Mr Brown's vision that he set up in June 2007 was of a moral, hardworking Britain. One where business could flourish and where the disadvantaged were aided in regaining work and pride in their work.
When the global economic market takes a down turn, which even Mr Brown could not have avoided, whatever the Conservatives like to claim, the Brown administration can merely react in the best way possible.
So far when you strip away aesthetics from policy they have actually done as much for Britain, given the very tight wiggle room that they have. The stamp duty holiday being just one example.
Mr Brown can't really promise Brownism as opposed to Blairism since they are largely two shades of the same colour.
The problem Mr Brown has is that he is not as media savvy as the party was in 1997 and he certainly has been a lot less fortunate.
That having been said the entire Labour party looks tired and bloated and needs some time away from office to reinvigorate itself. These symptoms were, however, showing under Mr Blair and aren't just a problem of Mr Brown, although he has done little to really abate them.
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The world did not start in May1997. There was always globalization.
So, the shocking news is what exactly Nick. Pray tell us what we did not already know, this has to be the worst Prime Minister since, well the last worst Prime Minister.
Take the windfall tax, which some people want. Where was it in the party manifesto at the last election? Nowhere.
Was there a committment to a referendum on the new European constitution? Yes, so what did they do, changed it to the Lisbon Treaty.
So, there will be no windfall tax. There will be new conservation tax. Definitely not a windfall tax, there are no apples.
Gordon Brown is still an Aspidistra.
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Does anyone, Brown included, believe a single word they say?
They are all either liars or deluded.
(OK, some Nu Labour supporters are neither: they're gullible dolts).
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I now await our very own clarification here from all the usual suspects.
What Dear Leader meant to say.....
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I endorse the pithy comment at #3.
The country is experiencing serious economic decline in a very uncertain world and we need strong leadership to rescue the UK. Confidence in the UK and the £ is evaporating with each fresh clanger from GB and his Darling.
Forget Gordon or Labour's woes - regardless of politics, we are all in the same boat which is sinking fast and so someone somewhere needs to wrest the controls from this inept captain before it is too late for the country, let alone the Labour Party.
Sorry Gordon - you had a go and you just aren't up to it. Please just accept it and return to your manse, and give us a chance at the polls to elect the person we think can save us.
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Nick
Could you repeat that please?
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Oh and post 13!
"Murray has always maintained he is Scottish and I think the being British comes a long way behind"...therefore you support a Swiss.
That hardly makes you very British does it.
Andy Murray is British as is Gordon Brown. You can dislike them for being sour faced and not quite achieving number one status in the world, but not because they are from Fife and Perthshire.
Incidentally I do find it rather repulsive to cheer against a Scot, especially one who has had to experience the horrors which Andy did.
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Nick, There is no such thing as 'Brownism' (unless you are referring to the contents of a nappy - very apt in the case of anything produced by Nu Labour).
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The man's simply not up to the job. He knows it. The party knows it. The country knows it.
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Scotsmanonahorse @22,
So Murray is a surly git because of a childhood trauma.
What's Gordon's excuse?
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Thanks for that Nick. It's now all as clear as mud.
Not your analysis, which is getting more insightful by the day, but all the positioning.
Blair/Brown or Brown/Blair it's all the same. It's like watching a wounded dog die.
We are witnessing the end of the New Labour Project and this is mirrored in the TUC, the Labour Party and among some Labour MPs.
The Conservatives have picked up on this, with a little reported open letter from George Osbourne to the TUC, as I observe here:
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/tory-tlc-to-tuc-marks-end-for-brown.html
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The Palin bounce is surely worth trying. Is Michael between travels at the moment? Surely he can be brought into a ministry of all the talents.
"I'm Prime Minister and I'm ok ..."
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#1 RobinJD
Always appreciate your sensible, well constructed postings.
You are completely right, the gentleman should resign, very quickly.
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There seems to be a lot of racist haterid towards Scottish people here.
Is it any suprise we Scots don't want to be associated with England.
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@ johnathan_cook
so to clarify, what you're seeking here is a Balls bounce?
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29. At 4:54pm on 09 Sep 2008, A_Scottish_Voice wrote:
"There seems to be a lot of racist haterid towards Scottish people here.
Is it any suprise we Scots don't want to be associated with England."
The trouble is it could be a chicken and egg situation. Andy Murray did not start well.
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Nick - I'm not quite sure what this blog is achieving. The responses are predictable to the extent that the great majority could simply be copied and pasted from one topic to the next and the next without emendation or amendment with little regard for your own comment or what you report. Many of those who did try to present rational arguments on one side or the other are now notable by their absence (with a very few honourable exceptions).
And I think I can draft the all too predictable responses to this post before I send it.
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26 theorangeparty
I had a read of you blog.
With the up-swell of trade union power you have got it spot on when you say that 'True Labour' is re-emerging from the ashes of New Labour.
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29. At 4:54pm on 09 Sep 2008, A_Scottish_Voice wrote:
"There seems to be a lot of racist haterid (sic!) towards Scottish people here.
There's a lot of paranoia in Scotland.
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30 Grawth
Thanks for putting that image in my head....!
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#32
Then don't send it, prime minister
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Jimbrant
I fear you are confusing a blog with a forum. Young Nicholas does not trouble himself with reading these comments.
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Grawth @30,
Yes. The intention is to toss him off a 30 storey building and see whether one happens. Or not.
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Shock news; we're part of a global economy, and the guy who's been in charge of the money for 11 years has only just realised.
well, we've had a global economy for a very long time (the romans, vikings, chinese, egyptians; just name your historical example; there are 100's of them and our own country has always been in there somewhere/somehow), so if that's news to labour then we need to physically kick them out of Parliament immediately.
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If this is indeed the case, why is "Brown to rethink policy" still headlining the BBC News front page?
Unless there was any substance to the story in the first place, why was this ever a headline?
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jimbrant @32 asks:
"Nick - I'm not quite sure what this blog is achieving."
It is allowing the majority of voters to express their disgust at this government in the sure knowledge that via various channels it does ultimately get back to those in power (irrespective of their pretense that 'all is well'). I can assure you that this is so, though I will not divulge how I am certain of this until my sources go public.
Surely you wouldn't want to close down this channel or, heavens forbid, censor it just because you don't agree with my/our politics?
Or would you?
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Nick - Keep asking about them about the POLICIES.
No amount of spin or 'clarification' will have any effect if our unelected PM is unwilling to change some of his failing POLICIES.
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So Brown wants us only to accept failed Brownism or failed Blairism?
And where are all the loyal labour posters here at the BBC forum???
My word if he is being roasted here by a ratio of 9+ to 1 against, then it is time for labour to resign en-masse.
jimbrant the responses are indeed predictable, because the overwhelming majority of the country are sick to death of Brown, Blair, Labour and everything to do with them. We do not believe a word they say anymore and so ANYTHING they say is met with a resounding GET OUT!!!
What is so difficult to comprehend?
We, the majority of the British Electorate (according to all recent opinion polls) are heartily sick of the most corrupt, malignant, dishonest, incompetent, negligent, hopeless and crime ridden bunch of politicians ever to be placed in the commons. We do NOT want you or your policies ruining and blighting our lives any longer and for the love of God, GO AN GO NOW!
Now then, Jimbrant, you are more than welcome to keep supporting this wretched bunch of misfits and incompetents, after all that is Freedom and Democracy isn't it. Even though Labour would love to scrap those outdated ideas, if they were even half capable of actually doing it.
I must admit that I am relieved somewhat that they are so incompetent. If they were competent, then they really would be very very very dangerous indeed.
So carry on supporting the vile dumpage of a political party if you wish, but please, do not criticise the vast majority of others writing here that they are are predictable because we see Labour for what they are.
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Post 41. Max sceptic.
Just to pick u on one of your points....
I wonder how many Government Ministers actually read Nick Robinson's blog and comments we all make?
I wonder what they really think in private?
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Calling all Scots.
Sadly I really do dislike G Brown and A Murray, for similar reasons.
But I like Murray's brother (whatever his name is having watched him play tennis; he laughs, smiles, enjoys himself. His childhood doesn't seem to have made him surly and miserable.
Brown has no excuse. He didn't even sing the national anthem when England played South Africa in the Rugby World Cup Final but just looked unconfortable.
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The trouble with Gordon is that everything does have to be clarified. You think he's given an answer but then you go away and look at it and realise there might be future 'wriggle room' or ambiguity in this aspect or that aspect and so you have to go back and ask. Why is that I wonder? Is it 'cos he has form in crafting his answers and statistics to sound like they're telling you one thing but on closer examination they're full-on Orwellian double-think.
I think it may be.
For example: Gordon will say 'under Labour National debt is down since 1997'. You, not unnaturally, think national debt is down. Whereas national debt (including PFI) has literally doubled. From 330bn in 1997 to 660bn today.
Another one.
'I have balanced the budget over the 'cycle' You think - cool, over the last 10 years or so we've had a few billion saved and a few billion in deficit every year but otherwise we're no worse off. What it actually means is 'I increased national debt by 300bn quid' and then ignored most of it.
You really do have to clarify everything. And then clarify the clarifications. And then....
ANd even then he's being disengenuous. He's very intelligent you know!
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re: 43, purpledogzzz
the vile dumpage of a political party
I like that phrase. It sums up Nu-Liebore perfectly.
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# 43 Purple,
Good name given the prose style, like it!
Seriously though, you seem a bit hysterical about things. The government are surely not as bad as all that bad, are they?
They've done a decent job on the whole, don't you think?
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#46 (U and the numbers)
Just about all politicians are like that though, aren't they? It's not just Gordon so why pretend it is?
I suspect there's a little of the "let's kick the easy target, let's boot him when he's down" at play here.
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Yeah... Mr. Brown needs to re-think a lot of things. He can start with continuing Britain's unwise involvement with Amerika's bizarre and insane foreign policies... especially Britain's foolish support for Amerika's imperialistic, war-mongering hegemony in the Mideast. And do ewe folks really think that installing Amerikan "freedom missile" $ystems ninety miles from the Russian borders makes Europe (or the Russians) feel more secure? No need to comment about Amerika's invasion and occupation of Iraq-nam.
Obviously... the Russians are not to be completely trusted , but they seem to have basic common sense about the world... and after all they are Europe's resource rich neighbor. Come on! Be honest. Who was really the bad guy in Georgia? What happened on August 7th, the day BEFORE the Russians were compelled to take military action?
And then there's the problem of legal and illlegal immigration into Britain. Better rethink that Mr. Brown. Bad enough that recession (or much worse) is at hand, and that decent paying jobs for British citizens are getting scarce, but a nation that does not protect its borders, language and customs withers away into extinction. Better fix immigration... or there will be no England in fiftey years. Period!
I think Mr. Brown and his Labour collegues had better rethink a lot of things... or there will be rocks (or worse) flying in the streets to break those ubiquitous Orwellian cameras. And when I talk rock, I'm not talking about white collar criminals at Northern Rock fleecing mom an' pop taxpayers.
Meanwhile... over here across the pond... a lot of us are plotting to burn down the village in order to save it. Indeed! This was the ultimate lesson of the war profiteering $cam of Vietnam. The exact quote, as a matter of fact, was: "We had to burn down the village in order to save it." Beware! There is a rapidly growing segment of the U.$. population that wants an all out revolution... with guns blazing!
Perhaps Mr. Brown should think before he re-thinks.
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Gordon is like a man walking through a field and being whacked in the face as he stands on one rake after another.
whack, whack, whack!
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NorthernThatcherite @44,
Officially, I couldn't possibly comment.... ;-)
Actually, I'd imagine most of them! (After reading The Gruniad, of course).
They would deny it naturally, and say they don't pay attention to public opinion.....
But we all know that they are a bunch of vain and shallow charlatans.
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We need to give Gordon Brown a chance. Ok, one year has gone, but still, we need to see what he can do. At the moment, he is the best man out of all labour mps.
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When will the electorate be given a chance to "rethink"?
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34. At 5:02pm on 09 Sep 2008, darwinsmonkey wrote:
29. At 4:54pm on 09 Sep 2008, A_Scottish_Voice wrote:
"There seems to be a lot of racist haterid (sic!) towards Scottish people here.
There's a lot of paranoia in Scotland.
Feeling paraniod [sic] doesn't mean there is no reason not to be.
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Well, I think you're all complete bonkers. In what way is Gordon Brown unfit to lead the country?
Let's start with his supposed faults. The economic crisis = not his fault at all; it's the fault of a bunch of dishonest US crooks. The housing market = side-effect of the crisis, which is apparently just as bad as house prices rising. What's better, what do you all want? Cheap housing or expensive housing, or middle-of-the-road housing? It's going in the right direction, but you won't acknowledge it. His lack of a photogenic face = not at all important. Again, what do you want: a leader like Blair who is good with people but talks out of his bum, or someone like Brown who is shy in public but a very intelligent man and knows what he is talking about.
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Surely policy is monitored regularly. Does No. 10's statement mean that Gordon Brown didn't bother to review the policies of his predecessor when he came into number 10? Does Gordon Brown think that the market remains in the same state year on year or did he just wait till the country was on its knees before he tried to change things?
BTW to all the Scots on here. I lived in Scotland for 2 years and I know how much you guys hate the English so a bit less of the victim-complex on this blog would be appreciated.
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re: 49
I suspect there's a little of the "let's kick the easy target, let's boot him when he's down" at play here.
It's more a case of 'quick drive the stake into Nu-Lab's black heart once and for all before it recovers'.
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Adapted; according to Oxford English dictionary "make suitable for new use or purpose.
Re-Think; use ones mind actively to form connected ideas about some one or somthing.
Again this is all talk and rhetoric, not about implementation or policy.We are seeing the death throws of the Labour administration and as with John Major the election will not be won it will be lost . Apathy will prevail from the electorate.
Would have thought that it was a government's job to continually look at its Policies in view of whatever conditions were out there. Perhaps this is two much to ask GB on an ongoing basis or do we wait for a crisis before re-thinking and adapting.
Interesting how and "obscure" magazine is able to show what G.B. is thinking, and then 10 downing st play it all down.
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#41 MaxSceptic: "Surely you wouldn't want to close down this channel or, heavens forbid, censor it just because you don't agree with my/our politics?"
No to both, of course. You should have noticed that I mentioned that people on both (or more ) sides of the argument no longer think it worthwhile to post here.
"It is allowing the majority of voters to express their disgust at this government"
The majority of voters may disagree with 'this government' (why is it always 'this' and not 'the'??), many may be disillusioned or disappointed, but 'the majority ......disgusted'?? I won't ask for evidence for your statement, because you and I have done that before.
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This so called goverment has become a parody of itself. It really is risible. Every morning there is some new hash been made of something. There really is nothing poor old Gordon can do now except look forward to a long and very boring retirement, bless him. I hope he enjoys his dinner tonight with the TUC bosses.
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In Brown's Monitor piece he mentions 'fairness' a significant number of times.
Presumably in this context, he means 'political fairness'.
For the individual and family, that roughly means does the Government treat us fairly in respect of the goods and services it provides in exchange for the taxes it extracts from us?
If a balance is not achieved, then the incumbent party in Government is not likely to be voted for by that person and family at the next election.
You have to judge for yourselves ... has Gordon and Co. provided good value for money in all that they have done cover the past decade and continue to do, in exchange for the money that you have handed over to them?
The people usually have a good sense of these things ... and a warning for politicians .. people hate being 'ripped off'.
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# 56 (Alex)
Yes it's a veritable frenzy of Brown Bashing on here. All day, every day. Anyone would think he's like the worst PM in the history of the United Kingdom!
It's all just because he doesn't have the quick and slick persona that we seem to need these days. What it brings to mind for me is the bullying of the unpopular boy at school, you remember? Yeah, I reckon a lot of the people posting here used to do that or (perhaps more likely) they were that boy and now it's payback time.
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Alistair Campbell said on Newsnight he wouldn't be looking at doing his old job again.
Even he couldn't do anything for Gordon Brown.
Although I thought I detected a bit of Campbell in Darling's speech to the TUC today. Might be wrong.
Despair is certainly endemic in the Labour party as every day they get a little snippet of something to excite only to see hope dashed again the day after.
Is somebody in Number 10 just playing silly to amuse themselves?
Ah Well! The TUC conference turned out to be a load of nothing. You were lucky not to have to report on that Nick.
It makes me yearn for the days of real politics before the boring set questions routine.
Great verbal boxing that was.
Compulsive viewing for all of us.
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I'm supposed to spot a difference between Blairism and Brownism? To be charitable, maybe he's just got problems getting a new message over. I know what he needs - a spindoctor!
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sagamix @63 wrote:
"Anyone would think he's like the worst PM in the history of the United Kingdom!".
Well, he is - officially - according to public opinion he is the least popular PM since records began.
I agree that Lord North and one or two other were worse, so let's say since Ramsay MacDonald.
Also: "What it brings to mind for me is the bullying of the unpopular boy at school"
And very shameful these episodes are too. Some lonely, misunderstood, difficult young chap has the misfortune of being singled out and bullied. Children can be very cruel.
I'm sure every one of us had someone like that in our school. Now think about 'that boy' and his behavior again: even though he was mistreated and misunderstood, would you really like him to have grown up to become Prime Minister?
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# 62 (John C)
So hard to measure objectively though, isn't it? ... value for money, I mean.
Like, if you don't agree with the Iraq war, then every penny spent on that was a waste. Better state schools don't matter if you send your kids private, so that would be a waste too. Better hospitals? Who cares if you and your family are healthy?
See what I'm saying? ... how would you go about assessing whether we've had VFM from this government?
I think it's a red herring, sadly.
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The same old tory names screaming their obcenities in the same old Tory way.
Every blog that comes up you could write a list of the names that will appear first and if you felt it was worth bothering you could pretty well predict what their going to say concerning the thread.
Nothing, just the same old rheteric if you turn over the page its nonsense and insults and look on all three blogs their infested with Tory uninteresting rheteric.
It is becoming as I said some weeks ago a Tory self admiration society with no room for anyone else's opinions.
Its no wonder to me that labour supporters are leaving these bloggs daily if your not careful Nick your going to end up with these bloggs being exclusively for Tory headbangers and a total waste of time.
It would be a good idea to start with, if there were a limited amount of posts removed by the moderaters before being dropped from the bloggs for a month the policy you have doesn't seem to be used big mistake.
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What it brings to mind for me is the bullying of the unpopular boy at school, you remember? Yeah, I reckon a lot of the people posting here used to do that or (perhaps more likely) they were that boy and now it's payback time.
Yeah. That'll be it. It's not that for some unknown reason posts attacking Brown are no longer struck down on political blogs. Maybe the uber-Brownites have given up 'problem-posting' them in despair or perhaps the moderators, in hand with the media, have finally woken up to what many of us have been saying for years.
THE EMPORER HAS NO CLOTHES.
He's not prudent. He's remortgaging the country and blowing the money on fast cars, loose women and foreign holidays. Like the great British chavatariat do when their house goes up in value instead of living within their means and paying off their mortgage. He is emphatically not behaving prudently.
Maybe you weren't around on internet blogs (say) five years ago but if you tried pointing that out on most of them you'd
a) be censored for calling Gordon Brown 'disengenuous' or 'disembling' or
b) be snowed under with Labour-HQ generated Carol Voderman type stats - (a figure from the top row, two from the middle row and two from the bottom row please Carol)
c) subject to any amount of personal abuse and then problem posted if you responded in kind.
Very Alastair Campbell.
But that isn't happening any more. The mood of the media, the moderators and the whole country has turned. It's not bullying or wanting revenge for bullying. It's the sound of billions of scales falling from millions of eyes.
Politically it is a re-run of 1995. The only question is, will Gordon Brown do the right thing like Major and Lamont and attempt to leave the economy in good shape or will they complete their scorched earth approach.
I guess we'll know in 18 months. Either way things are going to get a whole lot worse before they get better.
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With all due respect Nick, if one decodes what you said a year ago, Brown should have been on the back benches by March this year.
What was wrong in your analyses, Nick?
Good night Nick.
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Dear Gordon Brown- the British don't want you running Britain. If you don't agree, call an election and prove me wrong!
I don't care that "lessons have been learnt" or that "we are listening".
You and Bliar have run this country into the ground.
Please don't bring the UK crashing to the canvas with you!
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Yes it's a veritable frenzy of Brown Bashing on here. All day, every day. Anyone would think he's like the worst PM in the history of the United Kingdom!
Why would we defend any previous PM? The problem we have now is the current one. The rest have moved on. This one is the problem.
We can't be letting him off the hook just because he's not as woeful as (say) James Callaghan. Although given time (say another 18 months) he's guaranteed to eclipse anything we've seen in modern British history in his woefullness.
Happy to be proved wrong by events. I don't want this country to go down the toilet any further. I just have to hope that Gordon Brown doesn't spite us all to show us how clever he is. That's what it looks like he's been doing for the last five years.
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56. AlexR4444
Firstly welcome, we are a socialist short here today, Max shot one dead last night, so you are very welcome indeed.
Seondly, may I invite you outline exactly why Brown is fit to be my PM.
I promise we will all get back to you quickly.
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It would be a good idea to start with, if there were a limited amount of posts removed by the moderaters before being dropped from the bloggs for a month the policy you have doesn't seem to be used big mistake.
Ohhhh yeah. Censorship. Very old-Nu-Labour. Denial of platform.
I'm guessing how this would work - somebody would post something critical of the Labour party. A labour shill would then insult them personally. The original poster would repond in kind and then get 'problem posted'.
Repeat to fade. Kill the message. Failing that kill the messenger.
Seen it before. I'm sure they're problem posting everything on here already and seeing if it will stick. Trouble is, like I said, it's 1995. The tide has turned The blogs, the moderators, the country have all had enough of this disingenuous government with its squandered trillions, its bogus stats and its arrogant, disingenuous ministers.
Thiiiiiings can only get bettttteeeeeer.
Give it 18 months and they will.
Labour are finished.
Good.
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Post 63. Sagamix.
Please just name me one new distinct Gordon Brown policy that he has introduced since being unelected into office that is good for this country in the long term? Just one please?
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I am no Tory, I just think that this a dsgrace, they are all as bad as each other.
As for Gordon, well exactly what is the point Gordon? What are YOU actually going to do!
I mean actually DO!
You have actually never done anything in your life. Oh, let's see, independence for the Bank of England. Does nobody understand that whoever won the election that was going to happen. You seriously do not think that it happened just because Gordon said it should happen.
In the same way that the troops were on the border of Iraq before the 2nd Gulf War just in case war was declared, then it was the same with the Bank of England. It seriously was going to happen, no matter what! Get real folks, just get real.
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Does it really matter what this forlorn gentleman says. GB is in serious denial primarily about himself and the role he is acting to the embarrassment of so many. There is nothing wrong in accepting that you do not fit a role no matter how much you wish you did. We all have to do this in our lives although we dream of being able to. Gordon Brown has few if any attributes compatible with his dream. His fighting and whining for the job was an embarrassment and it is pitiful to watch him now. Mr Robinson you are dwelling on policies and his proposals as though they matter but are you not wasting your time. It is a very poor act. The fact that there is no other person within the government or the party leadership that commands any confidence is a devastating position for the country as it struggles to avoid economic obscurity.
It is well past the time surely for GB to go to the country. He must do so in haste however. Both parties must have a thorough shake up and present to the electorate a body of personel from their ranks who can command a vestige of confidence at the polls. Then policies might take on some meaning. Times are very serious for Britain and we certainly have no room whatsoever for anyone to play at being PM.
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Initially I thought Brown wrote opaque nonsense because he was unable to express his thoughts clearly.
Now I think he is expressing his thoughts clearly - the problem is that his thoughts that are opaque nonsense.
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I'll try and keep this as balanced as possible but....
...the article when it was published resembled a jumble of parts of Gordon Browns previous speeches since he came to office. Nothing obviously new, half contrite and half disingenuous, he doesn't seem to do much to give himself even a fighting chance of the electorate trusting him. I won't repeat here my description of the full text posted elsewhere, but as things have turned out they weren't that accurate anyway. The horse bolted about nine years ago and Labour have kept the stable door open just on the off chance Neddy might return. What a way to govern.
I cannot believe that Gordon Brown and his colleagues are not aware of public opinion, and ham-fisted communication like this does nothing whatsoever to help their image.
-----
Now what I would have preferred to say is...
...Gordon Brown has lost the plot, he was never elected, has performed badly and lurches from blunder to blunder when he should be shaping events and not simply reacting to them. He is unfit for office and clings to power with yet more pie crust promises. He knows and we know a General Election massacre is imminent. The game is up El Gordo, save face and spend more time with the family before the face becomes even more haggard and the hair greyer. Thanks in advance.
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re: 70 Onlywayup
"With all due respect Nick, if one decodes what you said a year ago, Brown should have been on the back benches by March this year.
What was wrong in your analyses, Nick?"
I think Nick overestimated the intelligence and integrity of the labour members of Parliament.
They know that if they boot out Brown they'll need to call an election pretty much immediately, and they won't do that because they know they'll lose their own perks of the job because most of them would lose their seats.
They're all putting their own personal perks of the job ahead of the good of the country.
They can see the whole country getting in a worse situation day by day with every action/inaction that Brown takes, and they know that their leader is a mindless damaging idiot, but their selfish dedication to their own personal gravy train supercedes their willingness to do something to help their country.
Shame on them, and shame on all the people at the BBC who are allowing this car crash to continue without taking labour to task over the mind-blowing negligence going on.
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Changing the topic.............
"If only the government in 1997 had been led by Tony Blair but the wider team staffed by the Conservative party.........."
Debate:
In 1997 - things did need to change. Investment in Schools, Hospitals etc did need to happen.
Tony got elected - the trouble was Brown blocked his reforms all the way - he built a war chest of cash for his own purposes. Brown held onto the cash for a long while - because he thought he could splurge it all and make himself look amazing once in charge.
Trouble is - Tony hung around too long for Gordon. Hence Labour never managed to deliver on its promises. All the cash was held up and then splurged in the later years.
Arguably Tony had the correct vision in 1997. Investment in people, infrastructure, schools and hospitals etc.
Tony's next big problem, however, was the Labour party. You only have to take one look at them and realise that 95% of his colleagues couldn't deliver their way out of a paper bag.
The Tories on the other hand, tainted by sleaze (of the few), were laden with people who know how to lead, manage and deliver.
Would it not have been ideal - for the UK - in 1997 to have Tony Blair as PM with the Conservative people in place to deliver the vision?
Am I arguing for some sort of quasi-American system here? Not sure - US politics normally bores me.......... but maybe in this country, we need to separate 'leadership and vision' away from those able and competent with 'delivery'.
Any thoughts darlings???
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73 - Carrots................ tres amusing!
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I've just been directed to:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1053592/Richard-Littlejohn-Spare-sob-story-Gordon-dont-care.html
Any half-honourable man reading this about himself - knowing that it was all true - would resign right away and hide away in shame.
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#68 Grandantidote
Its no wonder to me that labour supporters are leaving these bloggs daily if your not careful Nick your going to end up with these bloggs being exclusively for Tory headbangers and a total waste of time.
It would be a good idea to start with, if there were a limited amount of posts removed by the moderaters before being dropped from the bloggs for a month the policy you have doesn't seem to be used big mistake.
Not a good idea at all. Rather like shooting the messenger. Will the labour supporters leave the voting polls too and allow them to be taken over exclusively by Tories?
At least these boards are relatively liberal, providing the House Rules are observed. If you want just 'politically correct' comments then I suggest you view and use HYS, which is moderated by the dumbest people imaginable.
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re:68 grandantidote
Has it occurred to you that perhaps one of the reasons that there's virtually nobody on any blog supporting Brown is not because those supporters are boycotting blogs, or because everybody on all blogs have suddenly become tories, but that it could be because those Brown supporters have dwindled in number to such an extent that they no longer have a voice that's loud enough to be heard amongst the mass of protest that's being voiced against someone who's clearly negligent?
The Brown supporters aren't being shouted-down by tories. The Brown supporters are simply too few in number and no longer have any reasonable justification for their support.
There are no valid pro-Brown arguments; any that are offered are (quite rightly) simply laughed at because they have no basis in fact or logic.
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#74. U9461192
This is weird, but sorry, pal.
Sent off my posting #84 before I read yours. Seems great minds think alike!
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I think I've heard it all now , or perhaps I havn't ? Will there ever come a time when we , the hard working families of Great Britain are treated to plain , easy to understand statements that need no clarifying ? How long has GB got left ?
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68 - Grandantidote
I do feel sorry for you guys at the moment.
Your loyal to your principles - and probably also to Labour.
Problem is - the political tide has turned. It is going to be noisy. It will, however, continue to get nosier until Labour has gone.
You can't just stick "your fingers in the internet's ears" and hope to block out the number of people who are anti Labour in blogs.
In 1997 - the internet was in its infancy - but the media of the moment was full of anti-Tory bile. 93.4% of all comments at the time used these well worn words in all commentary:
......"Thatcher" - "18 years" - "Sleaze"
In turn - these are probably the words that fill most comments in 2008:
...... "Labour" - "incompetence" - "value for money".
In both cases, you only need the 3 words to spell out the central message from the public to government. All other words are just padding.
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Not a good idea at all. Rather like shooting the messenger. Will the labour supporters leave the voting polls too and allow them to be taken over exclusively by Tories?
That's the way it's looking isn't it? I'm almost feeling sorry for Gordon Brown. We hear that in private he's an intelligent, witty and engaging man. Apparently the same was true of John Major. What's changed? Well it really doesn't help if the media have turned against you. It may be the media driving the change in public mood or it may be them reflecting the change. I'm still not sure.
But there is no doubt that the mood has changed quite markedly since this time last year. It was all way-hey we've got rid of that flash phoney Blair, now we'll see some monster policies from the titanic mind of Gordon Brown rammed through by a parliamentary majority of 65. He's had long enough to think some up. And he is awfully clever.
And the Gordon Brown gave his conference speech. And Cameron gave his.
It was like the Doolittle raid.
Before it the Tories had known only defeat. After it they have known only victory.
Jeez. It was only a speech Gordon. Where are these magic ideas to transform the country. Suuuure we would have questioned why you kept them to yourself for ten years just to claim the glory for yourself but nontheless thanks for coming up with them at all.
And what does he come up with? Nothing. Nothing. Apart, that is, from lets lock people up for 42 (92?) days. Lets make compulsory ID cards for our citizens to carry about with them.
Eh?
I was kinda hoping they were Tony Blair's policies that would quietly be forgotten. Actually I think we all were. Along with the Iraq war. You know, wait a few months and declare it all safe and bring the boys home PLUS, ideally, send the yanks a bill for our mercenary force.
Nope.
One poor speech and he's utterly paralysed by indecision.
I want to feel sorry for him because nobody likes to see a man so hopelessly lost but this is what he wanted. Nobody held a gun to his head. The torment is all of his own making. The approbium heaped on him is just his past sins coming back to haunt him. Iraq, squandering of trillions, mad NHS computer ideas, ID card computers...
He really has nobody else to blame but himself.
Me? I blame Tony Blair for not sacking him years ago.
Today I blame the remaining Labour party for not at least persuading him to go to the polls and go down in a blaze of glory. To watch them all spinning and carrying on as though all is well is just sickening. There is no sign at all that this is going to get better. There is every sign it is going to get much worse.
If I were Labour I'd take my beating now and hope for another go in five years after landing the Tories with this scorched earth economy. I certainly wouldn't want to chance what it's all going to look like in 18 months time.
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Grandantidote - CEH - Wilkinson - Eaton - and now Alex....
........... just saw the sound bite from Alistair Darling. Energy firms "must do more".....
Is this not a case of "trying to shut the door after the horse has bolted?"
The USA managed their finances so that they had trillions available to rescue their economy - propping up their ridiculously named mortgage companies.
We in the UK - well over here we had £18.39 and a packet of parma violets up our sleeves and ready to unleash to tempt first time buyers into a falling house market.
...... can you guys not see that the end has come? We need a new cycle of government. Fresh blood.
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U9461192 - you have a hellish name to re-type......
...........but well said!
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Poor old Gordon!
Yesterday's man, with yesterday's language--
"we must rise to conquer these challenges....blah, blah, blah"
Do we really have to suffer nearly two more years of this guff rhetoric?
Why can't he just be put out of his misery and give the country at least some chance to start a recovery plan.
Oh dearie me, Mrs Broon, will you tell him, please?
John C.
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Things can only get ....... worse?
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Election now, job done
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90 Jonathan_Cook
Ref my own comment at 90..........
I forgot "Jimbrant". Sorry.
Au revoir
J.C.
P.S. Is it right that we can remember the "handle" of all the pro Gordon bloggers?
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re: 95
They're all Nu-Lab ministers you know. I think grandantidote is John Prescott.
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This government is now a real disgrace to democracy and all the people of this once great Union.
Resign in disgrace, all of you...now!
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Grandantidote I'd hope you'd leave for a while as I though as Charles had left we could see what happens when the focus, The three punchbags with Gordon Browns face on them were removed. These arguments are in my experience a waste of energy. Charles revelled in this feeble criticism, He knew how to stay out of arguments. the fact that he just had to be nice he annoyed these people. It was quite funny really. he must have got bored though. Without this focus I think these blog comments will dwindle. And the poor quality of their 'arguments' and lack of original thought will shine through.They are Riding a bandwagon and nasty in my view. They trully have the leader they deserve They can comment all you like . I'm gone again.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The labour supporters are NOT leaving or boycotting this blog. Does it not occur to the tiny minority of labour supporters left that actually, they are a dying species and that there really is so few of those supporters left? There are so few comments in support of labour because there are so few labour supporters left.
Oh, I live in a (former) staunchly labour constituency of Barrow in Furness. The Rt Hon. John Hutton MP's constituency. It is an industrial working class town in the North West. I have spoken to many working and middle class people, many of whom are deeply regretting ever voting labour and now are literally sickened and disgusted by the Labour party in Government.
And yes I am very very angry. I love my country and I am having to witness Labour defiling everything I hold dear.
I respect self reliance and labour reward sloth.
I respect marriage and labour supports and rewards separation.
I support honesty and the rule of law and the labour party turn the police into box-tickers who are rewarded for harassing the law-abiding because labour's political correctness and human rights law abuse frightens the police from tackling real crime.
I support national democracy, freedom and Liberty and the labour party have shredded the fabric of our democratic accountability by throwing us to the EU wolves without any say at all.
I support the judicial process and innocent till proven guilty before a jury. But labour have done more to remove our traditional freedoms and liberties than any party since the Magna Carta was signed at Runnymede. With detention without charge or trial, ID cards, DNA tests and storage for millions of innocents, the vile Paedophiles catalogue that is the Children's database etc etc. the labour party are assembling the totalitarian toolkit for spying on and tracking and rating everything, every communication, every journey and every interaction of every human in the UK. They will then rate and build a threat profile for everyone of us. This is a system that Hitler would have been orgasmic about.
The labour party are an affront to common decency, honesty, democracy, freedom, liberty, compassion, dignity and all the good and decent values I hold dear.
They deliberately lied us into a war on behalf of a religious extremist foreign power which is treasonous, they taxed and wasted billions on pet projects, gave away our sovereignty to the EU without our say again treasonous, and have turned our country into a basket case society filled with scroungers, ferral kids and foreign crime gangs. The labour party cannot even keep our most sensitive private data safe. the Government that is supposed to act as OUR public SERVANTS acting in our best interests on our behalf has, in fact, decided that they are the public's masters and they have become actively harmful to the well-being of the electorate.
That is why I am angry. The people who over-tax me are actively taking ever more of my money to use against my best interests. That is why I am angry.
Should I be grateful that this is the worst, most corrupt, incompetent, disgusting, most vile dumpage of scoundrels ever to darken the corridors of power?
Perhaps I should assist this bunch of crooks and visit Porton Down and volunteer for them to test their biological chemicals on me, only the most painful one's of course.
Labour, by their policies and incompetence and greed and deeds are actively hurting the people I love and destroying all of the positive values of this once great land....
And people wonder why I am angry?
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97 Jonamac
I saw your user name - are you one of these wierd Apple Mac types? Some sort of "Apple Fanboy", "Apple Freak", "Apple Cultist", "Mac Zealot" conflagration?
Only joking............ just read your post at 97 - liked it. Then I spied on your other debates......... it is all Apple versus Gordon Brown and Microsoft.
.... actually - that seems OK - as a basic premise.
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Quote: "Today I blame the remaining Labour party for not at least persuading him to go to the polls and go down in a blaze of glory. "
Well yeah, they would have lost, but then there would have been enough of them left to form enough of an opposition to keep the country zig-zagging in the same direction it has been going in for many many decades.
Now at least we have the real opportunity of killing off this vile labour monster once and for all.
After this the electorate ought to use the only real peaceful tool at our disposal to make sure that the Tories do as they are told, or else we will abolish them at the polls too.
Real democracy is WONDERFULL, but only when used properly.
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98 DHwilkinson
OK - so I hate all the personal tit-for-tat I've been reading.....
Yes - you and the others are catalysts for (additional) mud slinging.
Having said that - I don't think your absence will slow this trend.
The number of people fed up with Labour is growing by the day. Like the tide - this one is irreversible.
I'd prefer rational debate - but there are a lot of angry people out there. I'm afraid the time for gentile debate was probably about 2 years ago.
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One inch at a time Gordon is being levered off the center ground - where the votes lay.
There is a strange lack of political awareness about the Labour machine these days. There was a time when they wouldn't have laid this open goal for the Tories:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7607411.stm
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100. At 10:44pm on 09 Sep 2008, purpleDogzzz wrote:
You know, I think you might be on to something.
102. At 10:51pm on 09 Sep 2008, purpleDogzzz wrote:
Quote: "Today I blame the remaining Labour party for not at least persuading him to go to the polls and go down in a blaze of glory. "
Well yeah, they would have lost, but then there would have been enough of them left to form enough of an opposition to keep the country zig-zagging in the same direction it has been going in for many many decades.
Quite so. What is so astonishing is that Labour MPs don't see it like that. Out of power for 18 years, back in for ten and at least as loathed as Major was after 18 years. That's almost two entire generations now who 'get' how woeful they are. And every day they stay there is another spit in the face to remind us never to re-elect them again.
But people are forgiving sorts. Time is a great healer. Another 18 years and Milliband might be back in government. And if they went to the polls now and lost, with the absolute hospital pass they've given the Tories they could be back in another five years. They could saddle the Tories with more than their fair share of the blame. But they can't think that far ahead. All they're worried about is another 18 months of pay and pension contributions.
Just like Gordon's mate up in Scotland. Should probably have retired at the last election but no. Bedblocks democracy for another few paydays and some pension contributions for the missus.
Oh well. It's only the UK. We only have to live here.
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re: 104
It may be because all Nu-Lab's energy is going into pretending that everything's fine!
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100 Prupledogzzz
I agree with most of what you say.
........ I am - however - having second thoughts about Blair's guilt over the Iraq war (unusually).
At the time of the (war) vote, I was in two minds for the first time in my life when it came to the "UK going to war".
The case for Gulf War II, although it seemed straight forwards - well it didn't "feel like it" stacked up somehow did it?
Yet. Yet! Yet - I went with the government because I have an intrinsic trust in government with these matters.
Government have access to all the information and the big picture - surely the chances of them getting the case for war wrong (after years of back to back success by British Government in this field) was slim?
My recent wavering over Tony Blair's culpability in this matter is straight forwards.....
The man had drive, direction and views - unfortunately he was surrounded by prats.
Somebody should have "Bruce Lee style rabbit punched Blair in the face and made him see sense- even if only metaphorically".
................ Unfortunately - the Labour tent of talent seems to comprise people not capable of taking on any issue of substance.
....Any Tory worth his or her salt would surely have had the PM against a wall and made to justify war?!
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#41 Maxsceptic
"in the sure knowledge that via various channels it does ultimately get back to those in power"
From politicos that I know in Scotland and the USA, all the parties monitor the blogs, in the sam way that they seek opinion poll or any other data. I've always assumed that it's the same at UK level.
Do your sources tell you the same thing I hear?
They look for "mood", but repetitive postings from the same individual are discounted.
They also look for the thrust of arguments - eg #46 U boat made a specific charge on the National Debt against the Labour Government and #75 Northern Thatcherite asked for a single example of a good Labour policy. To date there has been no rebuttal of U boat's claim and no answer to Northern Thatcherite.
I am told that this would be classified as evidence of Labour demoralisation - whether U boat is right or not - and I assume he is, the fact that no Labour supporter even challenges his assertion is the critical point.
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13. At 4:21pm on 09 Sep 2008, mikepko wrote:
No surprises here then. Brown is right, all of his detractors are wrong. Just a few old policies to be got rid of. The listening PM.
He's just like Andy Murray. Top of the tree - well almost - miserable and sulky, and of course Scottish.
When I heard that Murray had been well and truly beaten by Federer I cheered - 6.30am in bed!!! Federer is nice person, no ranting or raving, well dressed and not Scottish. Well Murray has always maintained he is Scottish and I think the being British comes a very long way behind.
I don't support either Brown or Murray.
What has Andy Murray got to do with it. or being Scottish for that?
Andy Murray has talent. What have you achieved?
Stop using the fact that Gordon Brown is Scottish to tar us all the same.
I would have complained to the moderator but I feel it is better for your childish rants to be viewed by all.
Grow up.
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re: 104 jonathan_cook
That's absolutely unforgivable; Brown has no business interfering in domestic American party politics. That looked like it was a blatant party political broadcast by Brown for the Democrats in the usa.
It's disgusting, and just goes to prove how much of a mindless idiot Brown is.
Given Brown's reverse-midas-touch, I guess that means that the Republicans will end up winning a landslide.
Not content with destroying our country, he wants to destroy theirs too.
Hands off America, Gordon; it's none of your business and you're not welcome there.
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#105, 107
To try and defend myself, I was not saying anything about England, parts of which I'm sure contain a lot of racial hatred.
My comments were based on observation whilst living in Scotland and in response to what, based on those observations, I thought were hypocritical postings for our Scottish friends.
There's no need to get personal.
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On Andy Murray:
"His perceived dourness has prompted criticisms of an almost racist nature. English newspapers have lampooned him as a girning, unhappy, dysfunctional youngster who wants to go to his own room and slam the door. They seem to see this as peculiarly Scottish."
from:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/mostpopular.var.2443297.mostviewed.hello_im_andy_murray.php
How is Gordon Brown stereotyped again?
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112 Getridoggordonnow
Yes - I agree.
Personally I want to see Obama win in the US - if Gordon unleashes the full power of his 'reverse Midas touch' in the US that could be very bad news indeed.
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110. At 11:33pm on 09 Sep 2008, oldnat @110,
You are correct. (Also about Nu Labour demoralisation).
When the unofficial, unpaid (and unloved) 'troops' saunter off in despair and dejection, the General Staff really ought to know that the game is up.
The amusing this is, however, that some obsessive ministers and MPs (no names, no pack drill) follow the key political blogs (not just BBC's) with more attention than they perhaps strictly warrant.
So, every time someone stops believing Nu-Labour and all its works, somewhere a NuLab fairy dies.
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jonathan_cook @116,
Alas for you, you don't (I assume) vote in the US.
Only one thing stands between Obama and the US Presidency: The American People.
(Palin for President 2012!)
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STRONGER MODERATION NEEDED.
I think this blog needs a separate threaded discussion area - maybe with a new topic for each of Nicks articles.
This main blog should only have comments primarily addressed to Nick, relating to the content of his article...
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Nick,
I know that this may be a shock but I can tell you that the government will never bring in a windfall tax. Not part of the manifesto which they got elected on.
No, no windfall tax, but there will be a new tariff imposed on the energy companies. Maybe it will be called the Carbon Emissions Reduction Tariff, or CERT.
Now, so yet again the government is playing fast and loose, they won't be able to call it a tax, but effectively it will be. The only trouble is they won't be able to say that they have brought it in as a sort of windfall tax so the unions will keep agitating for the a windfall tax. Can't make it up. It is nothing but sophistry.
I also hope that Gordon takes the praise which is due to him after his visit to Saudi Arabia which has reduced the price of oil, yesterday it touched $100, so come on Gordon blow your trumpet, this was down to you, and your visit to Saudi Arabia, we do remember it.
Now, let's hear about the price at the pumps, how prices which rose as a result of the oil price shock will now reduce. Where is the fall, because the fear will be that as the Autumn winds blow we may well be approaching what the politicians really fer, deflation, and a return to the Great Depression.
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This mornings fine example of Nu Labour waste.
NICE, The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence responsible for evaluating the cost effectiveness of the drugs that we are allowed, has published is annual report this week.
It turns out the organisation that has cost effectiveness at it heart has spent more on PR than it has on actually evaluating the drugs.
They spent 3.4million on assessing new medicines and 4.5million on 'communications' last year.
NICE has an annual budget of 34.4million, and spends 1 pound in every 8 on communications. In contrast, 1 pound in every 10 is spent on evaluating new drugs
I wonder what the CEO earns, bet he has a nice little Merc to speed him to meetings too.
Stand by for the standard socialist cries:
Ahhh but theres waste in the private sector too.
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The fact remains that while New Labour pout, posture, pay an army of consultants a £1000 a day to do all the work so that Ministers cannot be held accountable and generally do nothing to help the country I am a civil servant of 21 years going deeper and deeper into debt just to feed, clothe and provide shelter for my family.
They will lose the next election by a landslide and then things will be even worse under the Tories.
Gordon, think of the ordinary people not the city boys!
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Nick,
shock news the beam has been stopped. This is so exciting, poor old Andrew Marr.
No, this important, no really it is.
Still here, not in a black hole yet.
The beam, the beam, has the beam made it, is this like human beams, colliding in Manchester.
Here we go again, it's the cooling system, so much could go wrong.
Yes, they've done it. The world has not ended.
We are saved. Some very happy, and taxpayer funded scientists.
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So, every time someone stops believing Nu-Labour and all its works, somewhere a NuLab fairy dies.
What a beautiful mental image. They're not dying. They're being machine-gunned.
As OldNat points out, the really telling thing is that they've all just broken ranks and slunk off. Gone are the halcyon days when they'd all just chip in with a few bogus statistics fresh off Alastair Campbells desk. Statistics that on closer examination wouldn't actually bear closer examination but by then the machine had moved on.
Now it's as if collectively they've come to the realisation that Alistair Campbell and Gordon Brown weren't just being disingenuous to 'Tories' or 'unbelievers' they were dissembling to everybody.
It's only just dawned on Polly Toynbee over on the Grauniad. She took a knife and cut Gordon Browns throat (metaphorically) at the weekend. She thought... He gave the impression.... He 'let it be known'... She thought.... but.... ohhhh..
Yeah, join the club Polly. You'd want a heart of stone not to laugh. Really. Years of peddling the same-old, same-old, thinking she was an 'insider' and 'knew' where Gordon Brown was going with all this.
We were telling you all along Polly. It's not an act. What you see is what you get. A dissembling Stalinist whose idea of command and control is straight out of the pages of history. Even down to having his cabinet riding a train around the countryside 'meeting the people' dispensing justice. I'm surprised they didn't stick a big red hammer and sickle on the front for the full Marxist nostalgia tour. Can you imagine what Private Eye's Prime-ministerial Decree will look like next week?
They are beyond parody.
I was in Moscow last month and went to Lenins tomb. Apart from the fact that Lenin's face looks in excellent shape for a guy whose been dead for 80 odd years the thing that strikes you is how his suit seems to be just lying empty and flat on the bed around his head. Seriously. No effort to 'shape' a body underneath at all.
A metaphor for this government. A dead head surrounded by empty suits.
Another 18 months and it's P45's all round.
Good.
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114. georengle
Ref:How is Gordon Brown stereotyped again?
Oh so many to choose, but lets be nice.
Try: Not Fit For Purpose.
Yes that works just nicely.
It really isnt a Scottish thing its a Brown thing.
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124
Just read that Polly Tonybee article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/sep/06/gordonbrown.labour
As I was reading this article - I thought I'd post something here along the lines 'Gordon not being unable to keep an agenda flowing in the media'......
..... a bit like the 'rethink not rethink' article that Nick has drawn our attention to.
We have seen this before - announcements, briefings and letting stories run inappropriately, only for the government to change direction.
There was the election that never was, windfall tax, rethink not rethink, economic rescue package etc.
As I was reading Toynbee's article - I was reminded that the scale of Gordon's inability is far, far worse than not him not understanding the way the media works. He is a total disaster area.
It is too depressing to sit here and list all his obvious faults and why he should not be PM. It is depressing also to think we have 18 more months of this 'leadership'.
Please -please someone in Labour - pull the plug on Gordon now!
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Hubris is an amazing this - it's destroyed more political careers than almost anything else. Hey-ho, Mr Brown - you'll now go down in flames for certain.
Whoever said all political careers end in failure had it right.
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It has come to a pretty pass that the Newlabour apologists (jimbrandt, grandantidote, to name a couple) now have nothing left in the armoury, except to complain about the huge volume of tide flowing against their ideas and the frequency of the posters who represent this tide.
It is highly typical of socialists to resent being challenged to defend their opinions. After all they represent the 'caring' side of society, don't they? How could they be wrong?
They are wrong for the simplest of reasons; government can't possibly always know best. And if they believe it does always know best they should explain how. Then they could explain why the creeping interference of faceless beaurocrats in our everyday lives is a better way to do things than to let people get on with things.
The rich culture of this country owes to the freedom and flair (and yes sometimes suffering) of its people not to the tortured existences of a Dostoevsky or a Tolstoy.
The problem really is of course far more simple than this - socialists simply don't like this country and want a different one. Well our borders are open making the choice easy for them.
So jimbrandt and grandantidote feel free to argue for your socialist lowest common denominator paradise with a ruling elite (for we all know you want that too) but just do it somewhere where you have popular support; for it surely doesn't exist in this fair and free land.
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Well, the way country is going we will have rioting in the streets soon, this is what frighten me most.
Government has to cut tax and force Bank of England to cut interest rate, otherwise more and more people are going to lose jobs and their house. We need a PM that will govern in the mess we are in and not one who does not seems to do anything. Take US for e.g. they cut interest rate, gave tax rebate, took over both Mac, etc its an active government; what are we doing?
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re: 121
This loathsome government! They must be destroyed! Arrrggghhhh!
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It is a pity that politics gets wrapped up in personality and presentation. That's life. Has been that way ever since I can remember.
But the notion that there has to be a "constant narrative" from government started with the Mandelson/Campbell spin machine. That resulted in the grid of statements (and often repeated commitments to the same "novelty") and too kmuch discussion of "what we may do, could do, will do, etc" and limited focus on what has actually be done with our money.
Governments can be over-active and interfering. Education is a good example. So too, is the NHS, where New Labour executed a series of changes that came back to a starting point.
Because most Ministers have never lived / worked within large organisations, (private of public) they have no personal understanding of what it's like to be subjected to constant changes of direction. It is a pain. Ennervating. Irritating. And frequently wasteful.
I'd prefer to see and hear politicians less and see clear evidence of the execution of changes - and the real cost/benefit of their efforts.
Brown, for me, was a poor Chancellor. He knew how to create taxes, but not how to impose real controls over the spending of our money... Nor did he cut borrowing, let alone build any fund for the future.
That's my beef.
I'm all for social justice. But can see no real sign that this has improved over a decade.
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73 carrots the only thing Max can shoot is his mouth.and he keeps on shooting it, like a child with a cap gun and with about as much effect.
Nice of you to welcome someone on here who has some sense, I add my welcome to Alex 4444.
You ask,
" may I invite you outline exactly why Brown is fit to be my PM."
I ask may I invite you to outline exactly why you think Brown is not fit to be our PM.
Perhaps you could at the same time outline exactly why Dave Cameron should be our PM.
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121 Carrotts
Thanks for posting that.
People are popping up on the news all the time - paying for proven drugs that the government says we can't afford to provide.
We are told that there is not enough money available to fund all these 'nice to have' medicines.
The example you post is a classic - there is plenty of money available - it is just never spent on the priorities.
If Cameron gets into government - he has two key challenges with the NHS:
1. Get the money to front line - and strip spending on the layers of QUANGOS, and consultants etc
2. How does he fairly provide a cut off to say 'that is a treatment that the NHS won't pay for' - I raise this because the demand for treatment of any kind is potentially limitless?
George Osborne is going to have his work cut out as well. All those bloated NHS PFI contracts need to be paid for.
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Grandantidote,
Post 132 - Dear boy, good start. Now we need to work on the next stage. Rather than just typing a random jumble of meaningless words, you now need to create "an argument".
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I ask may I invite you to outline exactly why you think Brown is not fit to be our PM.
We'll start with the low fruit.
Iraq.
Iraq.
Iraq.
ID cards
NHS computer scheme
Doubling of national debt
Increasing budget deficits heading into a recession
Only country in G8 in recession (according to OECD)
Lowest social mobility since WWII
Gap between richest and poorest greater than Victorian times.
Total tax burden increasing as we enter recession
I'll leave aside his character flaws for now.
Hope that helps.
Nobody needs to defend Cameron. First things first. Get this lot out.
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Whether or not Gordon Brown has been or remains fit to be P.M. will be decided by The Electorate in a couple of years. Nothing anyone says on here will have any bearing whatsoever on that simple fact.
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132 Grandantidote
Poly Toynbee starts to outline in this article why Gordon Brown makes a poor PM:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/sep/06/gordonbrown.labour
This article starts to outline why David Cameron would make a good PM (In summary - he is a man with a plan and he knows he has to prepare long and hard if he is going to actually deliver)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/camerons-first-100-days-882617.html
In return - could you please post the list of Labour achievements over the last 11 years we were discussing yesterday? Thanks.
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100 PurpleDogzzz - I salute you.
111 Neil_Small147 - " Stop using the fact that Gordon Brown is Scottish to tar us all the same."
I have Scottish, English and European 19th century immigrant ancestry who came together and created my family. I was born in England and live in Wales. This mix is probably not unique.
So I am British and most of the time proud of it.
Not though when the government do their best to destroy Britain; not though when democracy is trampled on as it has been in the last 10 years or so and not though when people go abroad and cause mayhem
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Another thought came to mind as I was watching the Beeb this morning.
Ed Balls was banging on last weekend about how these new Academies are such a resounding success, yet on our local BBC News, the much heralded Academy in Clacton has parents in the catchment area joining forces against the local council, because the school is failing (a word which, apparently, Mr Balls does not like to use) and they don't want their children to go there.
Nothing was said about this on BBC1, it just featured on the local news. BBC1 devoted more air time to the US elections and other meaningless twaddle in between the headlines and the weather report.
What about a report on the forthcoming scottish by-election? What's happening about that?
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74 u946 Another tory clown rises do you put your names in a hat to see who answers,
no one has suggested that there should be more moderations just that those that continuosly break them should have there posts withdrawn for a month maybe that would remove the vicious Tory bile from these bloggs.and also the same thing would apply to a Labour wrongdoer.
You say
"I'm guessing how this would work - somebody would post something critical of the Labour party. A labour shill would then insult them personally. The original poster would repond in kind and then get 'problem posted'."
So by that we can conclude that even you think its a Tory thats going to need a months moderation.
If what you say that the moderaters are in cahoots with you and the rest of the Tories
then you are making a very serious allegation and if it were not true then I am surprised that your post was not moderated.
Also if what you say is true how can you suggest that the Tories might suffer from this proposed action? it would by your logic obviously be the Labour posts that would be moderated.
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What about a report on the forthcoming scottish by-election? What's happening about that?
Gordon Brown is trying to figure out which day would generate the most competing headlines when the result comes out.
Watch for a 'clash' with an England match or another 'withdrawal from Iraq' that results in more soldiers being sent to Iraq. Or a pre=scheduled visit to the boys in Afghanistan. Hooray. Fly the flag.
The message he keeps sending out is:
I'm listening. And now I'm ignoring what you said. Great message you're getting across Gordon. This 'unburdening' is not just supposed to be therapy for us Gordon. Sure, it's nice to get it off your chest but you're not some bloke on the line from the Samaritans. You can actually change things.
And when you choose not to or renege on what at first pass look to be clear promises using weasel words (EU Constitution vote) or 'It's not my fault it's your misunderstanding' then we remember. And you've done it too many times to too many people.
You can't keep spitting in our face and telling us it's rain.
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74 u946 Another tory clown rises do you put your names in a hat to see who answers,
Yep. Good effort. Start with calling somebody a 'Tory clown', wait for the reply in kind and then complain about bully-boy tories. Woe is me. Somebody ban these people.
Seen it before.
My post 74 was spot-on.
I'm going to keep to the 'Get rid of Gordon Brown' agenda if that's okay with you. You just keep to attacking the messenger.
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112 Getridofgordonnow
Oh dear.
How did you put it.... "Gordon's reverse midas touch"?
It is official - Gordon has infected American politics:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/johnmccain/2774902/John-McCains-team-mocks-Gordon-Brown-over-Barack-Obama-backing.html
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#132
Grandantidote asks us to outline exactly why you think Brown is not fit to be our PM.
Does this not actually highlight the problem. Brown is not our PM, he is the leader of the labour party and it is just convention that the leader of the party with a majority in the House of Commons is known as the Prime Minister.
I haven't even had the opportunity to elect him as an MP, let alone PM. I have explained before that I regard him as a paternalist, he is not fit for purpose. He acts like a President but will not give the electorate the opportunity to vote for or against him by holding a general election.
The problem is that the labour party know that the only way that we can rid ourselves of Gordon as PM is to vote out of office the labour MPs who have 'elected' him as the leader of the party. Hence, labour MPs will not overthrow him by a coup in the way that Gordon overthrew Tony.
So, I will not give any details but I know why this shameful parliament must be terminated, there must be a general election.
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Grandantidote,
Post 140 - Good try, young man. Unfortunately these are still just a jumble of random words. Tricky business this argument lark! Stick at it.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
@140
Fortunately for you the torys believe in free speech, Unlike Labour who have done more to limit personal freedoms than Hitler.
I also note with interest you still seem incapable of posting anything that is remotely on topic rather than just having a whinge about other peoples opinion.
Back on topic, I think Chuck Hogwash is definately writing GB's speechs now. Both the Foreword to conference and his peice for the monitor have Chucks rambling say nothing style. That also explains the quick retraction of the Monitor peice once chuck had had a chance to see how it was recieved on here
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There is a reaction against the decision by the jurors in what I shall call the Woolwich verdicts. They heard all the evidence and found individuals not guilty.
Are we not seeing that if a jury had heard the evidence that Tony Blair received before committing us to the war in Iraq, then they would have said, no. There is either unsubstantiated claims or the evidence does not support your actions.
Our soldiers signed up to defend their Queen and Country, not to attack and occupy foreign nation states.
There must be an inquiry into the war against Iraq. A war paid for by Gordon Brown.
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136 miss waldorf I've been saying just that for weeks. but these guys are so hung up on throwing insults that they dont know how to stop or perhaps dont want to.
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#140
grandantidote going slowly loopy?
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#100 purpleDogzzz
Nice one - fairly much spot on.
JimBrandt, grandantidote, AlexR4444 and others I have inadvertently overlooked.
Have a bit of a read of paragraph 2 from the above. The clues are there and becoming more obvious daily.
purpleDogzzz resides in a part country of the Americans would refer to as a heartland, this particular heartland, once upon a time, was a Labour stronghold, is it still so?
How many similar parts of the country does this represent? At whatever point in time, El Gordo calls the General Election, if indeed by then it his decision make, the best Labour will achieve is a lengthy spell in opposition whilst returning significantly fewer MP's and those fortunate enough to retain their seats will probably do so with vastly reduced majorities. Personally I am looking forward to quite a few high profile casualties, with luck one or two will have their demise televised live, a la Portillo. As luck wouldn't have it El Gordo probably has a large enough majority not to mess up, although having said that....
Anyway, my point is this, arguably this blog is representative of large parts of the country, Labour supporters are dwindling rapidly, the anti Gordon Brown/Labour people here are in the ascendancy precisely for that reason. Nothing personal, think of this blog as a typical pub or club anywhere in the country where people express the same opinion, the only difference is this is more public.
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145 emurdstone , only to you my self indulgent supercillious odious interlectual friend . all correspondence will end here between you and I.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Sleaze
Robin Cook’s Affair (at least David Meller)
Ron Davis Searching for Badgers on Hampstead Heath
Nick Brown and his Gay Prostitutes
Jack McConnell Affair with Party Worker
Spin Doctors Hounding of Ruth Addis NHS “racist2 patient
Spin Doctors Hounding of Pam Warren Paddington “Tory Supporter” Crash victim.
Kinnock slush fund.
Chris Bryants Shenanigans in the Park
Margret Hodge Resigns over Demetrious (She’ll be back)
Blunket Immigration cover up
Birmingham Postal voting
Blunket DNA scandal
Prescott Council Tax Payouts
Prescott Affairs
Cash for Peerages
Prime Minister questioned by police.
Haines Dept Prime Minister Campaign
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Incompetence
The Dome Mismanagement
Jo Moore Good Day for bad News 9/11
Stephen Byers Rail track
Queen Mother Funeral Black Rod argument
David Miliband NHS Table Massage.
Invasion of Iraq (Illegal?)
Bombing of Serbia (Definitely Illegal)
Beverly Hughes resigning over immigration (liar)
Rover Loans
Northern Rock Loans.
Patricia Hewitt’s NHS Speech
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#142
please keep the 'get rod of Gordon' agenda alive and kicking and in time it is to be hoped that grandanitdot will go the way of CEH and understand that if he wants his man to remain the prime mininster he had better suggest on the posts why or stay away from these posts.
Any other course of action and I am afraid he makes himself fair game for the 'bully boys' whoare looking for answers as to why exactly such an unelected incompetent ditherer like Gordon Brown is a fit and proper person to be the prime minister of this great land of ours.
As I see it the man simply isn't up to the job and in any other sphere of life bar politics he would be out on his ear so fast his feet wouldn't touch the ground. So why is he still here?
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128 robinjd , its not that we have nothing left in our armoury its just that you Tories tell lies better than we Labourites tell the truth,
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123 TAG
"Yes, they've done it. The world has not ended"
does that mean we can all relax now that your prediction of armageddon in the spring is over?
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109 J Cook
....Any Tory worth his or her salt would surely have had the PM against a wall and made to justify war?!
but they didnt he had more support pro rata from the Tories than his own party I'm glad to say as I supported the war and still do also the war in Afghanistan.
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#136
one presumes that's Yvette Cooper Balls speaking in hope.
Actually everything aid in here is relevant miss Yvette because both Gordon and Dave read it and take note.
You can't uninvent the internet and they now have to accpet it's jsut as powerful a tool as the TV became to Churchill, Thatcher and the Spin-Meister in Chief Blair.
You'd better get used to it; your party's deeply unpopular and people want to be heard.
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#132 grandantidote Good afternoon
Do you realise you frequently respond to a question with one of your own?
I might be in a minority in thinking so but it kind of betrays something a little defensive, or perhaps a lack of logical response. Why not occasionally address the points and then raise your own to invite counter argument?
Just a thought, enjoy your afternoon here or elsewhere.
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@149 and 152
Still personal attacks!
Still no point to make!
Come on GA debate. If you dont like a point counter it with an opinion of your own.
Has anyone noticed how quickly Browns U-turns are coming now? If he keeps this up he wont need a Campbell to spin for him he will be doing it himself.
I estimate that he is doing about 0.041 RPM currently, but is accelerating
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150 robin jd well robin I really wouldn't have expected you to understand reason is not found in the Tories vocabulary on these bloggs
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#121 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
#133 jonathan_cook
Regarding the NHS and in NICE particular, putting aside the balance of the use of their budget how often do we hear of actual cases where live saving drugs are denied on the basis of cost, frequently accompanied by spurious facts and figures.
In the meantime, with apologies to smokers, the clinically obese, ladies with large/small busts that require to be increased/decreased, match as you see fit, should the NHS be funding these kind of treatments?
Not in anyway having a pop just adding a bit more meat to the bones you guys raised
with perfectly acceptable points.
NICE? Somewhat ironic?
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I'm going to be interested to hear Cameron and Osbourne's take on how they are going to handle the nations finances.
Debt accumulated by all governments is at circa £540Billion.
But that is NOTHING compared to the £1Trillion in unfunded state pensions — (which is double the figure six years ago!)
Civil Servants get to retire at 60, however, that works out as a £17,000 tax burden for each and everyone one of us in order to fund these retired state workers.
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Let's stop having these intellectual debates about GB - the guy is a complete clown with no principles or vision, full stop.
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#158
Watch this space.
Brown continues to be an Aspidistra.
'and it came to pass that a new tax was brought in, only it was not a tax, it was a tariff, that's a CERT for sure, another means tested benefit'.
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@149 and 152
Still personal attacks!
Still no point to make!
It's a tactic with which I'm well familiar. Seen it by Labour apparatchiks elsewhere. They know they're stuffed if they get dragged into justifying Nu-Labour policy or economics so the trick is to personalise their attack. Distract you from your message.
Then, when you respond in kind run crying off to the moderators about how those bully-boy Tories are ganging up on you. Pull this message. Pull that message.
It's Alastair Campbell 101. Discredit Kelly. Discredit Gilligan. Discredit the BBC. Bury the message.
And it's worked. Until now.
Don't engage.
Ignore their taunts. Just keep broadcasting the facts.
It drives them insane.
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164. Ilicipolero
Agreed the ethics are tricky, and Im not going to even start there.
My target was waste.
A little more meat to be found here though.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article4499847.ece
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161 Ilicipolero you got it wrong again its Good morning but dont fret I wont hold it against you. I now my friend wihout any hidden agenda have decided to desert these bloggs until some measure of common sense returns.
Now that most of the socialists have decided to leave these bloggs which have as I said become a Tory mutual admiration society you will all be able to tap one and other on the back proclaiming" well lads weve driven all semblance of rational debate out, so what shall we do now, lets pick on the liberals, no, their to small.
Well we could sort of make some remarks about Cameron and Osbourne and their lack of policies. Nah! too easy, well we could form a circle and disappear you know where." cheerio folks.
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164 Ilicipolereo
Thanks for raising those points. This is exactly the sort of thing the next government will have to get on top of.
Putting the huge levels of wasted money aside - the NHS still has to provide some limit to the treatment in can provide.
Cameron has been talking about 'nudging' people rather than 'command and control' government.
Co-ordinated policies would make sense i.e:
1. Some sort of cash incentive for obese people or smokers who want to change.
2. Expensive drugs not made available / or charged to smokers and obese people
OK - so I thought up that on the back of a fag packet - but - in essence this is the aim:
'Nudging' of people to improving the nations health, around aspects which are avoidable and within the control of individuals, will reduce the total cost spent by the NHS on care.
This will make more money available to spend on treatments which are expensive in order to tackle issues which the individual has no chance of avoiding.
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#154 HarryPFlashman
Whether a Member of Parliament in the Red, Blue or Yellow corner can keep it in their trousers or not and has a liking for colleagues, someone elses wife , badgers or tangerines in the case of Stephen Milligan so be it, we live in the real world. I exclude young boys because that is absolutely abhorrent and repugnant.
Putting aside the private preferences, it's a pretty damning list isn't it and only includes items that have come to light.
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Ilicipolero
What I don't understand is this.
If other EU countries can get their drugs for less than we pay, why can't we do the same? The volume alone must hold some clout with the drugs companies, but we seem to pay full price for everything. Perhaps the NHS needs a much stronger negotiator!
I agree with your comments that the NHS should not be funding the operations and, what I call social illnesses, ie. breast enlargement/reduction, etc.
The NHS should not be funding sex changes or IVF either, in my opinion. I know that sounds a bit radical to some, but there it is.
I do think that the fire, police and ambulances should all get their fuel at cost price. Their bills are astonishingly high and cheaper fuel must help to ease the financial burden a little for those essential services.
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re: 165 jonathan_cook
"Civil Servants get to retire at 60, however, that works out as a £17,000 tax burden for each and everyone one of us in order to fund these retired state workers."
I didn't realise it was that much; I guess that helps to explain why Brown stole all our private/company pensions then.
My guess is that the tories will do something different to whatever their manifesto says once they get in, because they don't want to frighten people by telling them up front what really needs to be done to get us out of the hole.
Strange how history repeats itself. We were in exactly the same position back in the late 70's; it's quite depressing to see that nobody in labour, even the politicians who were MPs during that time, learned from those mistakes.
Personally I think (aside from Iraq) that if Tony Blair hadn't had his hands tied by Brown since 1997, that we would have ended up with the best of both worlds, with a fairer system, decent public services, and a productive/growing economy, and relatively low taxes.
That's one of the reasons that I'm so annoyed by Brown; if he'd let Blair do what was right at the start instead of just saying "no" every time a reasonable idea was floated and hiding the money, then I think our country would today be in a fantastic state economically and socially.
Aside from a few quirks (albeit some major ones) such as Iraq, I think Tony Blair would/could have been the most celebrated/popular/productive PM we'd ever had if only he'd sacked Brown on day 1 and replaced him with someone who was more willing to work with reform.
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132. grandantidote
Didn’t mean to cause any offence or alarm on 73.
Max did not really shoot Charles, it was purely a metaphorical statement meant on an abstract level.
Absolutely no socialist were hurt or injured in any way what so ever during the use of this metaphor
Charles will be back, you can bank on that, Hes no Han Xin.
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165. jonathan_cook
The only way that this is going to get funded is to dramatically cut public services for the next 10 - 20 years.
It really is that simple.
Might as well make a start now.
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#170 grandantidote
Before you head off, probably tail between your legs whimpering like a smacked puppy, would you kindly respond to with some fact based assertions of your own as to why Gordon Brown is doing a worthwhile job?
Just the once?
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!62 pot kettle , The last one for you
"Has anyone noticed how quickly Browns U-turns are coming now? If he keeps this up he wont need a Campbell to spin for him he will be doing it himself"
Its a wise man that can see the need to change things and does. Its a foolish man that doesn't, you've been crying out for change and when you get it your still crying out . Forget it, your not going to get what you crying for,thats if your lucky.
.
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Grandantidote - re post 170
To quote you from yesterday (on the Travelling Companions blog):
"123 pot kettle , Now then old chap I can see that your very easy to wind up"
To quote you again from yesterday:
"Nincompoop"
Sadly, Kiwilegs no longer posts on here. I say sadly because, although I strongly disagreed with her views she could certainly present an argument and quite often her postings would make me stop and think. She was sometimes rude and cranky, however in amongst all that she did make a real contribution to the debate at hand.
You sir, on the other hand, are way out of your depth. No facts, no reasoned opinion. It is like a watching a caught fish flounder around on the deck of a boat - and if I wanted to se that I'd get myself a ticket to the Labour conference.
You'll carry on posting on here. You won't be able to resist. And once in a while I'll get so fed up with you that I'll pop back to remind you of your ineptitude and hypocracy. Until then, adieu.
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174 Getridofgordonnow
Yes I agree. I also think Tony could have done far better if Gordon hadn't tied his hands.
I've been reading Cherie Blairs autobiography and also read Alistair Campbells diaries. I'm left with an impression that they have edited out huge chunks of embarassing material in order to give Gordon a fair crack at the PM job.
Remember that huge 'war chest' of cash Brown built up? My personal view is that Brown stockpiled the money because he was convinced he was going to be PM in a 2nd Labour term.
Thus for the sake of personal ambition - Gordon has been the architect of New Labours failure. Starting with the failure to deliver over 11 years and ending with reverting Labour to an unelectable body once again.
I see that TB has not published his memoirs yet. I thought he'd publish a benign account (to protect Gordon) this year. I suspect he knows that GB is finished and will go for a more warts and all once GB's fate is known.
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Hey guys come on ease up.
He types with one finger.
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#181
Time to point it in the direction of El Gordo!!
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Or better still, jam it in Gordito's left nostril and drag him out of sight for ever!!
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Remember that huge 'war chest' of cash Brown built up? My personal view is that Brown stockpiled the money because he was convinced he was going to be PM in a 2nd Labour term.
It's only recently that I've had this interpretation brought to my attention. And do you know I can't believe I missed it.
With hindsight it is so obvious what was going on. That's why I was perfectly happy for the first Labour parliament. The country was running along nicely (I'd not spotted the plundering of pensions either), we were running budget surpluses. Debt was being paid off. We even paid off our war debt. I remember being quite proud when I heard that. We'd done what our fathers and grandfathers had struggled for two generations to do.
There was so much to be hopeful for. And then in 2003 his brain exploded. And he turned on the spending taps. I think national debt was down to 230bn by 2003. He's actually almost trebled it in five years. Give it another month or two and it will literally be trebled.
No wonder Blair jumped ship. Ha! 3bn as a sop to the voters of Glasgow East to cover up his 10p tax debacle. A mere bauble in what it has cost all of us to have Gordon buy the premiership.
And all this borrowing and squandering is out of control. We're entering recession, the Unions are getting Bolshy although it's largely been kept out of the headlines by Gordon and his headless chicken cabinet.
No wonder we're left with the dregs of Labour supporters to try and obfuscate and throw up chaff in the face of this hurricane of damnation. The smart ones are all hunkering down too.
I really think Teflon Tony might still get away with it. Which would be a shame and an insult to natural justice.
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What another Gordon Brown re-think. This is getting beyond a joke.
If he is looking for a bounce back similar to what they are saying with regards to a certain person in USA (Palin) then perhaps I could recommend a few names that might attract sufficient attention if anybody out here in cyber space cares anymore.
Miss Whiplash, well respected by those in law and order.
Jordan, she knows how to keep in front.
Victoria Beckham, she could lend her lip pouch to him!
Norman Wisdon, knows a trick or to about tripping up.
I do not feel I need to go and and add more names.
What I am really trying to say is that the man has no chance and should go away, with her other New Labour Buddies but nowhere please in GB.
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171 Polero and J Cook theres a few things for you to be getting on with I didn't think I should leave with my tail between my legs like a whimpering puppy not that I've ever seen one I treat my fellow ihabitants of the world with respect unless their Tories and then I have to struggle with my conscience.
Two million back to work.
Peace in northen ireland.
More nurses.
More doctors.
Community police.
More regular police.
More teachers Teachers assistants.
Better and more schools that are much better equipped .
Better and more hospitals with infinitely better equipment.
Free museums.
Free bus passes for the elderly.
Free swimming for the elderly,and dozens more leisure centers.
Free TV for the elderly.
£250 winter allowance for over 65s, £300 over 80s.
Sure start.
Tax credits.
Increased family allowance.
More maternity allowance for pregnant mothers.
Iincreased return to work and pay conditions for mothers with new babies.
More maternity leave for mums and dads.
More pay for child care.
Bank independance.
Minimum wage.
Massive overseas aid.
Overseas tax relief for many struggling countries.
The first to send large amounts of aid to countries with natural disasters.
Banning smoking in public places.
Taking an active patt in takeing action in several wars to free countless millions of people from subjugation thus giving millions of younsters a better chance in life.
Giving the police stronger powers to keep us safe from terrorists.
Bringing in the 28 day remand law
Giving conntracts to build two new trident submarines also two air craft carriers which in the light of recent russian military moves was a very wise thing to do.
Putting thousands of speed camerers in place thus cutting down huge numbers of lives being lost paticularly children.
Saving NorthernRrock which in turn saved a catastrophic run on the banks that Would have decimated the banking system in this country.
Saved Rail track.
Paid millions out to disabled miners that had been waitng for the Tories to pay up for years.
Kept inflation and interest rates the lowest since records began and for the longest period,
Made inroads into the reform of the house of lords.
Banned fox hunting and hunting with dogs
Removed us from the tory fuel escalater which reduced the price of fuel well below the price it would have been under the tories. they have introduced two hundred young people into apprenticshipsand have moves afoot to get another couple of hundred.
well there are lots more. I am sure you will wriggle and squirm on some of these but thereyou are,I didn't want to write this list because its been done before not only by me but many others many of these things have been put forward by Tories so there your are.
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Gordie Broon
Sleekit mannie
No so fair
A dour replacement
For liar Blair
A sharp reduction
In economy
Shall bring about
The end of thee
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Well said.
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grandantidote "Labourites tell the truth,"
What kind of gullible fool are you? The labour party does not recognise truth of any kind.
I am not claiming that they are all liars, but that many of them are too stupid to recognise truth when they spout their nefarious rubbish.
Two different random examples to outline what I mean:
1. Ms Oona King on question time announcing labour outrage at Iran's continuing nuclear program. She swallowed the false American neo-con view hook-line and sinker. She even stated that Sanctions are necessary because "Iran refused to sign the NPT."
Problem! Iran ARE a signitary and have abided 100% to the letter of THAT particular treaty. They ARE allowed (under the terms of the NPT) to refine uranium to a low level of 3% - 5% required for nuclear power. There is NO evidence (according to the IAEA) that Iran are doing anything else and the IAEA would love to see the evidence from journalists and politicians using this delicate situation for their own political ends who claim otherwise. As yet they have not seen ANY.
Did she lie? No. Even worse, she was completely unaware of the most basic facts regarding potentially the greatest threat to global peace on earth. She could not tell the truth because she did not know the truth.
2. Glenda Jackson in 1997 crying besides a poster of the London Underground promising that Labour would never ever privatise the London Underground.
Labour won the election and Privatised the underground.
Glenda Jackson stated that she saw politics and acting as the same quest for truth.
Actually, Acting is trying to convince the audience that something that is pretend is actually truthful and believable.
She sees politics as the same. In other words lie convincingy.
When actually politics should be governing honestly and responsibly in the best interests of the people who elected you.
Labour have never done that since 1997.
Labourites do not tell the truth for a lot of reasons, not much of it is deliberate lying, most of it in basic rank incompetence and gullibility. Most of the deliberate lying comes from senior cabinet levels, the rest of the untruths comes from those under that level blindly believing everything they are told by the liars above them.
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re 186 Grandantidote
So why are we all so depressed and fed up then?
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190 weevlirow,
Because for ten years you have been having quite a good life.
So good that it made you forget the prevous eighteen years of misery.
Now that we have to tighten our belts for a while until this world wide recession blows over people are complaining.
They expect to always have the good life. When they dont they get depressed and want to blame somebody in this case Gordon Brown is the target,
Give it a little time and we'll be back to the good times but not if you let the Tories back behind the wheel.
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188 purpldogzzz cool down old chap I dont recall saying that labour or for that matter any one else, doesn't lie.
You consider yourself to be one of the deep thinkers on these bloggs so I pose the question to you.
Who on gods earth do you know that doesnt lie.
Certain people proclaim that they dont lie and you or I might say we believe them but they could be lying when they say they dont lie.
So in truth no one knows who is lying so relax.
My grandmother used to have a lovely old dog who when out walking would pant a little with his tungue hanging out my granmother used to say you see that, thats a little tungue that never told a lie, and there you have it.
You agreed lately with TAG that armageddon would be here this spring well I live in hope that both you and TAG were lying,we shall see.
To get back to the point, What I said was that Tories were better at lying than labour were at telling the truth and they are , thats entirely different from what your trying to say that I said.
You ask
"What kind of gullible fool are you?"
well since you ask I am certainly not the same sort of gullible fool as you thats one thing I can count my blessings for.
Thank fully I dont live in this fantasy world that you live in.
I dont predict armageddon this week or next or maybe in a million years, when it comes niether you nor I will know its coming and I dont want to know and I suspect even you wont.
If I were you I would not expect to much truth from the Tories unless you want to convince us that you are indeed a gullible fool.
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Time to resign, Bottler Brown!
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Superb post at #63
Some soul searching is required by a host of the bloggers on here. You know who you are as well don't you?
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Nu-Labour's defenders on here
Are Brown's civil servants, I fear.
They type what they're told
And so lo and behold
They have a cushy career.
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re: 192 grandantidote
I also wouldn't expect too much truth from the tories (at least until 2010), they'll be too frightened to tell the truth.
They don't want to scare the swing-labour or libdem voters by telling them what needs to be done to fix the economy.
If they told the truth it'd probably be along the lines of getting rid of thousands of pointless government jobs/quangos and a massive efficiency drive in a bid to save the tax payer some cash, and then split that cash between tax cuts to help kick-start the economy and paying off the massive national debt.
It'll take a while to get us back on our feet again, and it'll be painful for those government people who lose their pointless jobs, but it's necessary for long term sustainability.
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Many of us believed all the hype when TN and NuLabour came into power in the late 90s. The euphoria was widespread. After 11 years in power we were in fact proved to be gullible fools and we will be paying for it for years to come. Just because we hope for a change in emphasis from DC doesn't mean that our gullibility won't be tested again but we can't go on as we have been and the new administration just might be able to fulfil at least some of our hopes for the future.
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196 get rid of Gordon now,why are you and getting rid of thousands of them people always going on about useless jobsgetting rid of thousands of them people
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re: 198 grandantidote
Because if the tax payer is paying thousands of people to do something that's pointless (or duplicated), as in the case of virtually all quangos, then that's an unfair drain on the tax payers, and the people who are being paid tax payer's money to do pointless jobs need to be made redundant and then re-trained to do something useful instead.
What part of that isn't reasonable? It's not right for the government to create thousands of pointless jobs that are a drain on the economy/tax-payer, it's better to get those people into real jobs instead. Get them earning real money and paying taxes instead of draining money from the kitty without doing anything useful.
I'd rather my taxes were spent on a Doctor or Nurse than someone who's building a website to promote national chip week.
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196 getridofgordonow
Why on earth do you and people of your ilk keep banging on about getting rid of what you percieve as thousands of useless jobs.
How you believe that this is going to save money that can be used to give tax cuts as you say to kick start the economy.
Working on the premis that what you say is true, that totally ignores the fact these same thousands of people are then put onto benefits which you also have complained about.
The consequence of this rather foolish act is you then put thousand of families into the situation where when they were working they were paying into the countries coffers with their tax.
They will now be removing cash from the treasury for sitting at home on their backsides.
Which you and your kind also complain about.
Now I dont know if it reminds anyone else of the days when Maggie did just this to the miners.
You see despite all your protestations that the Tories have changed, you all pretend to be different but underneath that very shallow crust your exactly the same as you ever were.
So your typically Tory answer is to put as many people out of work as you can that is presumably civil servants.
In order to save money to pay of the national debt.
This is a statement totally without any regard for the families who will be affected by your plan and even the figures dont begin to add up and I'm certainly no mathematician but even I can work that one out.
Your plan old chap is illogical and insensitive.
I can only hope that some of the workers out there that you consider to be doing worthless jobs are reading your post.
Out of curiosity I dont suppose you'll tell us but what do you do far a living.
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198 getridI am sorry this post which was unfinished was inadvertently put in, see 197
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Nick, Its time to be open, frank and honest.
Do you or anybody have a clue what Gordon Brown stands for.
I have yet to meet anyone who cares for him anymore.
I can't wait for the Labour Party conference to start. It will be like one of those old Whitehall farces back in the 1950/60's.
What you see on stage will be the farce, but backstage it will be open warfare.
Bring it on.
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re: 200 grandantidote
You obviously don't understand (or acknowledge) the basic logic that people are shouting so loudly to you about, and that's why your party is finished.
Yes, if you make a pointless government worker redundant then you have to pay them something while they find a real job. But the alternative is to keep them in a pointless/draining job forever, and that doesn't make sense.
By making pointless government workers redundant you'd basically just be temporarily replacing their wages with benefits while they find a real job. In the short term it might cost more because redundancy settlements will be quite a large cost, but in the long/medium term it'll save billions. As soon as they find a real job they'll be off benefits and earning money so that they can help fund the nhs etc along with the rest of us.
You can't have an economy where you pay billions of pounds of tax payer's money to people who don't do anything useful (ie false jobs) because it's simply not sustainable, instead you train them to do a proper job. If for some reason they can't do/find a proper job then (and only then) do you give them benefits.
What's wrong with making pointless government workers redundant? They're draining money from the economy and not doing anything useful; it's a total waste of cash and is unsustainable; if you don't understand that then that is why your party is so finished.
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"Your plan old chap is illogical and insensitive."
I'd argue that it's logical, insensitive in the short term but sensitive/beneficial for the effected workers in the long term, and necessary.
"Out of curiosity I dont suppose you'll tell us but what do you do far a living."
I've been on the receiving end of redundancy, so I know all too well how much of a shock it can be and how it effects your life. It's very hard, but in some instances it's necessary for the greater good.
I ended up deciding not to get myself into that position again (ie being dependent on a boss who's an idiot; the company I worked for has now gone bankrupt because they replaced all their full time staff with contractors who took the money and did a bad job then went off to the next mug), so I decided to become self-employed and work very very hard. (I'm in the i.t. industry). I resent my tax being used to pay for pointless government jobs when I worked/work so hard to pay my own way. I don't think it's fair/right.
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203 getridofgordonow.
I think the whole basis of this debate first and foremost is who decides if another persons job is pointless or not.
I am quite sure that nobody is going to stand up and say my job is pointless.
As I said previously your obviously referring to the civil service as its obvious that no private company will employ people to do nothing.or they wouldn't be in business very long. and to sack them wouldn't benefit the country only the employer.
So if I am right, then what you are saying is that there are enough people out there already working for public service that we could sack in order to benefit the rest of the country,to the tune of billions of pounds but that is only after they find what you consider real jobs.
Now I know that under Labour there has been plenty of work for most people but what you are now asking for as we teeter on the edge of a recession.
Is that we sack millions of workers and happily pay them benefits which will in no way cover the cost of the life that they and their wives /husbands and children are at present experiencing, these benefits would have to cover the interest on their mortgages as well.
If we do slip into recession as you Tory bloggers are determined to predict it will be difficult to sustain the level of jobs generally throughout the country, never mind find thousands of what you call real jobs.
So where do we go from here is there anyone in your family thats going to put up their hand and say fire me I do a useless job, I know theirs none in mine that would do that. so I ask again who decides.
you say,
"You obviously don't understand (or acknowledge) the basic logic that people are shouting so loudly to you about, and that's why your party is finished."
well I think if we walked into a workplace where you consider that they should all be sacked until they find a better job or even to tell them their doing a pointless job and we asked for a show of hands to decide on your idea or mine,I think that you would find it difficult to emerge unscathed.
If your party were to make it clear to the electorate that that is what they intend to do whilst waiting out of sight for the media to try to oust the government then I think their ratings would drop dramatically so I suppose by that token you are to be commended ,But wrong,
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"Is that we sack millions of workers and happily pay them benefits which will in no way cover the cost of the life that they and their wives /husbands and children are at present experiencing, these benefits would have to cover the interest on their mortgages as well."
Why should the tax payer subsidise all the luxuries of someone who's doing a pointless job? It's not fair. I'm going to vote against it. And so will most people.
Your reply speaks volumes that you just don't understand why people are so annoyed with having to fork out billions of pounds to fund people doing pointless jobs.
I've tried to explain it, but you haven't listened.
If you think it's a good idea to give someone, say, 6 million pounds to help build a website to promote national chip week, all from tax payers' money, then that's the delusion of the labour party being displayed with crystal clarity, and is a perfect illustration to the readers of the blog out there why they should never ever vote labour again.
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You cannot expect The Government to constantly bail out workers whose jobs are not sustainable. The Americans would laugh at such a ploy. It's tough but it's also a fact of life that if the money is not there nor is the job.
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re: 207 misswaldorf
"The Americans would laugh at such a ploy"
I think they're doing a lot more than just laughing at it. From what I can tell their 2 prospective presidents are both trying to let their own electorate know that they're as far away from Brown as it's possible to be; they're having a competition of who can be most dismissive/scornfull of Brown/Labour policies because they know to say they're anywhere near Brown politically is political suicide.
As a uk voter, it's really fantastic to watch that happening.
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