Gordon in limbo
"Save money, save energy" read the slogan on the lecturn at the prime minister's news conference yesterday. Not so long ago, some journalistic wag - who knows, even me - might have quipped that the words "save Gordon" belonged there as well. Somehow, though, it didn't quite feel right. Gordon Brown no longer appears to be under threat. The cool political climate of the autumn has replaced the heated frenzy of the summer.
Back then, David Miliband would not answer the simple question "Can Gordon Brown win the next election?" This week, he insisted that he could whilst leading members of the cabinet in praise of Mr Brown. In the summer, ministers believed that Jack Straw might lead a cabinet coup. Now, though, he declares that there will be no leadership challenge. Then, there was talk of letters to be signed by dozens of Labour MPs calling on the PM to stand down - like those that forced Tony Blair to bring forward his departure. Now, Charles Clarke calls for his leader to buck up or stand down and no-one comes out to support him.
So, what has changed? Why has the "centre of gravity moved in Gordon's favour" as one cabinet minister put it to me. The critics admit that they cannot see a way to get from here to there - from a world with Brown as leader to a world without him. He'd resist being removed, they say and you can say that again. There's no-one obvious alternative, they go on - aware that neither the party or the public rallied to David Miliband when he emerged as the young pretender. There would, in any case, have to be a leadership election lasting at least six weeks since the public wouldn't accept another leader being imposed on them. Indeed, the demands for a general election would be hard to resist.
Friends of the prime minister put it more positively. MPs have come to realise, they say, that it's not Gordon Brown that's the problem but "the economy stupid" and he's the best man to sort it. In this respect, and this one only, the polls are helpful for Mr Brown. The public does not say it wants a change of Labour leader nor that the party's position would be improved if there was one.
So it is that Gordon Brown has neither been backed or sacked. So it is that he has not re-launched his leadership but does not face a challenge to it. So it is that ministers say "we'll give him his conference" or "we'll wait until the by-election" without saying or knowing what they'll do when those supposed milestones are reached.
The PM, it seems, has been saved for now at least not by anything he's done but by an atmosphere of weary resignation that has taken over much of his party.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~30~RS~)
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Nick, gosh are you believing the spin of yesterday's non event? You obviously did not see the 7pm news on channel 4 last night. The C4 poll was forecasting an election result worse than Foot's of 1983.
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I would speculate that the one thing that is driving him on is the desire not to go down in history as one of the shortest serving PMs.
Polls show that a change in leadership will do little to resurrect Labour prospects at the next GE so why bother to change the present status quo? The country meanwhile can go hang.
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Nick you should compare notes with Michael Crick. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/michaelcrick/
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He might not have been backed or sacked but he's certainly cracked.
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"The public does not say it wants a change of Labour leader nor that the party's position would be improved if there was one. "
Er, which public is this then, and which planet are you on again?
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What has dawned on the labour party is what has slowly dawned on the rest of the country; we are bankrupt.
620bn of public debt - tripled under labour and that's before northern Rock. HBOS borrowing heavily from the Bank of England on a daily basis and unable to contine without it.
This is why every single initiative that our grandstanding prime minister leaks turns out to be a little mouse when it pops out; we haven;t got any money left.
This situation will get worse - tax receipts are collapsing.
Look at propertysnake to see the real extent of the housing market falls - down 40% on some parts of the country.
Look at the performance of sterling down over 20% agains the dollar and the Euro - that's bogger than the fall out after the ERM fiasco under the tories.
Look at new car sales - the worst for forty years.
So I say to all who argue the toss about whether it's like the 90's or better or worse; we don't know yet just how bad it's going to be but the way the govenrment never seems to have the trumpeted funds for its schemes is telling you the national finances are ina much worse state than we have been told.
And i forgot to mention the 'wonder' of Brown's employment 'miracle' which was in fact one million extra public sector jobs paid for by us and millions of immigrants and two million people on incapacity benefits.
Would you want to be leader of this party at the next election?
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Is not the real reason the fact that Labour MP's have come to the realisation that regardless of who leads them they are destined for defeat at the next election?-Brown will never go of his own volition and no-one else wants to lead labour to certain defeat
You only have to look at Andy Burnham's rant about the FA to see how out of touch this Government are... when people are concerned about the cost of gas and electricity, mortgages and unemployment the Government is devoting itself to regulating the FA!!
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It's over - the sooner he goes, and Labour they better for them, the better for everyone. Perception of Brown will not change, whatever he does. In the public eye he has being weighed and measured and found to come up short of the mark.
It's like a toothache and he's scared to go to the dentist. It's not going to heal, it's just going to get worse. Decisions are being made to salve their own pain, not address the cause. There is a clear perception that what is being done is to try to benefit party and not country. It appears the government don't see that the public are aware.
Face your fear, get it out and let the healing begin. The pain will be insignificant next to the relief
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Gordon Brown, Like Major in the late nineties, is a dead man walking
Even the unions accept that a Labour victory is a likely as a british sprinter winning the 100m at the olympics anytime soon! or Bolton winning the premiership! and are courting Cameron and the Tories like the germans seeking an armistice after the First World War.
Damage limitation
The only debate is the scale of the defeat given that anything that may help lower interest rates, falling inflation or a retrun of a feel good factor are unlikely.
Call the Election now and lets stop the uncertainity.
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So, what has changed? Why has the "centre of gravity moved in Gordon's favour" as one Cabinet minister put it to me. The critics admit that they cannot see a way to get from here to there - from a world with Brown as leader to a world without him.
There's no-one else is there? Even the awful Polly Toynbee calls them 'a cabinet of minnows.' Plunging ahead is Labour's only option--- one which will inevitably lead them to their doom.
Call an election Gordon, and die with honour.
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As we all know that Brown isn't going anywhere (why sack the Captain after the iceberg has struck?) can we now see some POLICY from Labour. You know that thing we expect Government to do; come up with new laws that make this Country and our own lives better. Rather than pathetic and disgustingly weak rescue plans, they would do better to be seen to be getting on with the job; not just saying it.
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For me the delicious irony is that if Brown was perhaps 10 points behind in the polls he would be more susceptible to a challenge- as it is at 20 points the gap is insurmountable ... most Labour MPs have reached this grim realisation and are just resigned to screwing as much out of the system as they can over the next 24 months (apart from Hazel Blears and Crash Gordon who both are convinced Labour will still win)
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Let's all park without a permit!
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For Labour the whole world is framed by its own present sense of failure. It is as though, if they are doomed to defeat themselves, then they are going to make damn sure everyone else is doomed.
---Martin Kettle in today's Grauniad
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Brown is a selfish man putting himself before the country.
The cabinet are a selfish people not wanting to rock the boat, so putting themselves before the country.
The only interest the public have in Brown and Labour is when can the be thrown out. Details of who does what are irrelevant to them.
If Brown is so keen on saving energy, he could slash the public sectors power budget by 40% and insist that all civil servants wear two jumpers, turn down the heating, close the curtains, turn off the lights, put baloons up their chimneys to make up the gap -- after all it is what he says he expects the public to do...
Brown's sole declared reason for not having an election last year was so he could 'set out his vision' - he has had a year to do that, so where is our election? we demand one NOW.
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And why have none of the proles come out in support of Charles Clarke?
Possible due to the need to ride this Gravy train to the last stop in 2010, grab as much cash and freebies as possible and have time to look for alternative employement.
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I want to see him go down in election, I want to see his face on the podium when the numbers are called out
Ill wait 2 years for that pleasure.
Get your new kitchens, rockeries and Tudor facades while you can guys.
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Nick..........I'm always surprised at the nievity of political commentators and politicians. You say that 'friends' of Gordon believe that the electorate don't blame Gordon, but the 'economy.' How stupid is that! Gordon's been so-called managing the economy for the last 10 years. Who else is there to blame?
You say that the public 'do not want a change of leader.' You're right, we don't...what we want is the opportunity to kick his arse out of power!!!!!
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I am not so sure about this. Surely Harriet Harman's class war speech was a deliberate laying out of her 'class warrior' credibility to the Unions? She couldn't have signalled her intent more obviously, IMO. Doesn't that indicate a willingness to encourage further leadership speculation?
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The Nu-Labour censors are out in force.
They won't stop us. We are one, bloggers!
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How typical of Gordon.
Went into his bunker and did nothing.
Saved because none of the rest of them have got the Eds to take the poisoned chalice.
I presume all challengers read this Blog and realise they are doomed to personal oobscurity if they take over now and take the inevitable loss in the election.
Better that they leave the scapegoat in place
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#5. pdblake wrote:
""The public does not say it wants a change of Labour leader nor that the party's position would be improved if there was one. "
Er, which public is this then, and which planet are you on again?"
It makes perfect sense, the public are saying "We don't want Brown, but even if you change leader, we're still voting you out at the next election."
The next election will be between two parties - New Labour and Not Labour.
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Nick,
You seem to ignore the Brown "strategy" for dealing with the energy crisis. Should I be surprised?
That was the political story. Not the moans and groans from the timbers of a sinking ship.
As I understand it, Brown offers an 85 year old lady the chance to get on a 3 year waiting list to get free (or possibly subsidised) insulation installed, in a home she can't afford to heat this winter.
And maybe she "prudently" invested her own money, years ago, to insulate that property. In that case, I don't see any help at all.
If that's the best Brown can up with, it's no wonder this administration is in dire straits.
Haven't seen any resignations so far, so I guess that the Cabinet plus assorted hangers-on approve of this nonsense.
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I forget now who it was that said it, but it's still as true today as it was then:
"People vote Labour in with empty heads, and vote them out again with empty wallets"
It's going to be a long wait till 2010 to get the chance! All us long-suffering taxpayers have to look forward to is another 2 years of spin, nonsense, taxatation, and being patronised on a daily basis by these clowns whenever they feel the urge to lift their heads up out of the trough.
It's going to take a long time for our once-great nation to recover after this shambles of a government.
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Save money, save energy...?
That's Save Monergy then!
Is it me or was that an old British Gas advert? Can GB's PR machine now be stuck in an 80's time warp?
No matter what the outcome of the next By-Election, no-one will want the job of leading a party to near oblivion at the next General Election. So we're all stuck with GB in a job he can not do and with him surrounded by grinning mad-men/persons/brothers/sisters drinking Pimms and Bud.
With no-one around to do the honourable thing, looks like we all doooooomed!
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Nick,
You are confusing the calm before the storm as a sign of good weather to come.
Unless David Cameron does something very stupid Labour will lose the next election, and lose it badly (recent polling shows a 100+ seat majority) which will create an interesting backdrop to the Labour Conference. An audience full of 150 Labour MPs almost certain to lose their seats at the next election if Brown stays in office, and militant union representatives is not a good one for Brown.
If the Labour Party can't win with Gordon why keep him on?
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#20
I was put on the naughty step all day yesterday for something I had typed.
I truley hope Gordon does go the distance, and doesn't get usurped. The reason for this that Nu Labour are already running with thier B team (not that the A team was much above self congratulation and greed).
Obviously the can't select another PM without an election, and with our overseas policies already a train wreck, can anyone see that ASBO waiting to happen Miliband at the controls. It would be like making Swampy minister for roads.
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If Gordon's friends really believe that the best way to get out of a hole is to keep digging we are all screwed.
The ecomomy is failing due to a preponderance of unserviceable debt. Gordon Brown laid the conditions for what we are currently experiencing.
It's like asking an arsonist holding matches and petrol how they'd suggest fighting a forest fire.
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What's that you say Nick, it's the economy and Brown's the man best placed to sort it out??? Wow we are entering uncharted waters here. Isn't he the man that messed it up? The thing is, looking at it from new labour's position there's little they can do to change their prospects. I think they're sort of doing the old 'fiddling while Rome burns' thing. I mean, if it's true what you say Nick, the've done a pretty amazing thing convincing themselves that the runaway train that is UK PLC is nothing to do with them. They are deep in doo doo. They may think they can hang on to the illusion that 'hey it's just external events and not us' and that when the time comes good old Joe and Jane public'll come around to seeing that. But believe me, our memories of their maladministration go deeper than this. They're gonna be wiped out at the next election, they know it and they don't like it, so they're looking for any excuse, any crumb of comfort they can to support the illusion that 'hey it'll come come right in the end. It won't: the train's already left the station.
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This whole drama is pathetic.
We all know the country is virtually bankrupt thanks to Brown's "borrow big, and borrow often" tactics as Chancellor. If the British media was even slightly capable, they would have been bringing this to the country's attention ten years ago, to hopefully stop Gordon in his tracks. To be honest, I don't know why Brown doesn't just come out with a speech saying "okay, here's the deal: we have absolutely no money, so there's absolutely nothing we can offer you. However, we all know you're going to vote us out at the next election no matter what I do, so what I'm going to do is sit here and do nothing for two years, and that's just how it is."
It's no wonder Scottish independence is so violently opposed by Westminster parties - our oil is the only thing keeping the British economy from imploding completely.
Perhaps if Brown realised Labour have no chance of being re-elected anyway, he wouldn't care about upsetting the energy companies, and could force them into line just like we all want. Ironically, this is probably the only thing that can save them anyway.
It's time for Labour to decide who they work for: big business or the voting public.
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The government has admitted that it is powerless to stop energy firms passing on the cost on its fuel assistance package onto customers.
The devil is in the detail as usual
Thanks Gordon, Now not only do I get no help as my house is already fully insulated, but I have to pay for those that havent already insulated through my energy bill.
Fantastic way to tax me and be able to say it wasnt you.
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It is no longer about Gordon, it about the labour party and, not to put not to fine a point on it they are just so finished.
The only way now to get rid of Gordon is to get rid of labour MPs, simple as that. So, they might as well keep the jamboree going and hope that something, anything, turns up.
In the meantime the situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan appears to deteriorate with every passing hour. As for Dafur, Chad/Cameroon and the Sudan! There must be an inquiry into Iraq, and parliament must be recalled about the situation in Pakistan, we must not allow our Special Forces to be caught up in the mire, not without parliament discussing it first, or does parliament not matter anymore.
Gordon Brown sets the agenda and he thought by going onto the economy attention would be diverted from the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan. Well, by diverting attention onto the economy he has chosen the wrong area. Nobody will forget that he was the Chancellor, still acts as though he is, instead still we have Alastair Darling, the fall guy, having to take the rap for what Gordon allowed to happen on his watch.
There will still have to be a cabinet reshuffle, but the problem is that when it happens he will have some very angry former cabinet members. Trouble is if he doesn't reshuffle then it will expose his very weakness because he knows there must be changes but he has no power to do anything. Too many skeletons in the cupboard?
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Labour MP Frank Field, who led a successful backbench revolt over the abolition of the 10p tax band, said after a summer spent "roaring about the package" the government had actually produced "a mouse of a proposal".
Another Labour MP, Alan Simpson, chairman of the Parliamentary Warm Homes group, told the BBC that an extra £74m pledged towards the Warm Front insulation scheme simply reversed existing cuts to its budget.
Plenty of disent in the ranks as well.
This package is neither fair or equal!
I would go out and shout from the rooftops that this government arent fair and equal but I truly believe that 51 million of the 64M people in this country already know and 30mil are prepared to vote against them when GB gives use the chance
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#15 the-real-truth
You are spot on matey. However he is not just being selfish he was also selfish last year, when he bottled the election so as to avoid possible defeat, and denied us the chance to vote him out.
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Harriet Harman for PM? I suppose that might be someone's "dream ticket" but I would beg to differ. It would ensure that Labour would sink even further from view
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#34 I suppose we must be thankful he did bottle it. There was always a chance he might have retained a majority and so be around for another five years! This way we have an end date and Labour sinking fast.
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I agree with Nick on this one; they've basically all given up because they know their party is finished for good.
I think it's becoming increasingly likely that they won't even be able to secure enough MPs to be the official opposition in 2010 as the libdems could well overtake them on that front.
The fact that they can't see a better alternative to Brown in their party speaks volumes for how completely useless all the other labour MPs must be.
They'll take as many perks as they can for the next 18 months and build up their disgustingly large tax-payer-funded pensions, and continue their scorched earth policy out of sheer political spite to their opponents, and then they'll all retire to Barbados in 2010 sipping champagne on the beach and having a good laugh at how they managed to fool the electorate for so long.
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I just don't get it. Ten years of boom and the inheritance of a healthy economy. Where has all the money gone? Where are our roads, prisons and power stations? Where is our fiscal reserve? Don't talk to me about the new schools and hospitals - our kids will be paying those off.
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34 Jonno_39
Sometimes Fate can be kind and intervene in strange ways. Hitler postponed the invasion of Great Britain, either from hubris or he lost his bottle. For whatever reason, the tide turned in our favour. Perhaps, here too, unknown forces are at work!
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#36
Oh my God yes you're right. Can you imagine that?! Five years of this.
I need a drink.
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So what it comes to is that, because Milliband's attempt failed, Gordon is more secure. But he's still
(1) useless
(2) out of ideas
(3) visibly suffering from stress
(4) not up to the job.
And good timing, Nick: while your sources were telling you that Brown was secure, Sky was breaking the news that at least a few Labour bankbenchers have asked for leadership nomination forms.
Maybe you have something in common with Brown?
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Big gaps in this blog, what's going on? Someone fall asleep?
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A handful of Labour MPs have called for a leadership contest in the party, the BBC has learnt.
Labour sources have confirmed they have received letters from a "small number" of MPs, thought to be in single figures, asking for a contest.
They said they had received a similar number of requests in previous years.
The development will increase pressure on Gordon Brown whose efforts to rally the government with housing and energy initiatives have been criticised.
OOOH Nick did you get it wrong again.
Perhaps you were in the eye of the storm and it all looked calm ;)
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If Gordon is in limbo then he is between the devil and the deep blue sea. Best place for him, if you ask me.
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31. Pot_Kettle
I suspect we are seeing the emergence of the Fourth Way.
Cant raise taxes, cant cut back on spending, cant borrow more; so get private companies to indirectly subsidise the poor.
Prices rise for most, plausible deniability is abound. and blow back blamed on the evil money grabbing private sector.
Clever, I like it.
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I can't remember a time, though I am not THAT old, when there has been such a paralysis for such a long time in a political party.
The inevitable comparison is with Honest John Major. If somebody like him feels sorry for Gordon then he is done.
But the probability must be that the future holds a Russian roulette of leaders as with the Tories post Major. Perhaps one will succeed and perhaps the Unions will tire of trying to decide what the Labour Party is.
If they decide to go down a new party route I am sure they will be pressing for proportional representation.
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@45
I agree Carrots, He has definately excelled himself in this new even stealthier way of taxation.
I hear that lockheed want him to work on the project replacing the F117.
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So I wrote a piece just now and it disappeared into the blogosphere; I will try again.
We are all agreed that Labour and Broon are going to hang on for as long as possible.
Given that, what then?
Hardly a day goes by without me hearing that yet another good company has gone down the pan. This is only the start and it will get a whole lot worse until it gets better.
My question is who out of our two to three party system of professional politicians will want to be the next leader of Britain? There will be no money to spend and they will have to preside over the downsizing of the public sector. None of that will look good on your CV.
Who of the present bunch of pretty boys and girls of any party have the ability to do that?
Perhaps it will then be time for a National government?
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Labour are in deep trouble - there's something of a rabbit-in-the-headlights effect running through them.
Getting rid of Brown is unlikely to improve anything - his fiscal policies were based on the NICE years not ending, which when they did highlighted how inappropriate the 'prudence' tag was, and at this point in the electoral cycle the public are sick of Labour in general.
If they could find a charismatic, competent leader with some depth, then they could turn it around (Cameron is something of a powder-puff, and a suitably good opponent would destroy him), but Brown and Blair created fiefdoms without anyone capable of directly challenging them, so none are to be found.
His fuel concept was ludicrous - instead of approaching the energy companies with a useless stick (windfall tax was never on the table), he could've used a carrot via future taxation or ensuring all fuel to the poor is VAT free and tax-free to the energy companies.
Brown has shown himself to be unable to handle the PM role, he should have the guts to find a successor soon, as that'll be to the benefit of everyone.
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Just rediscovered this old gem from the 1997 Labour manifesto and posted it to the fag-end of the last blog.
Spread the word...
Spending and tax: new Labour's approach
The myth that the solution to every problem is increased spending has been comprehensively dispelled under the Conservatives. Spending has risen. But more spending has brought neither greater fairness nor less poverty. Quite the reverse - our society is more divided than it has been for generations. The level of public spending is no longer the best measure of the effectiveness of government action in the public interest. It is what money is actually spent on that counts more than how much money is spent.
The national debt has doubled under John Major. The public finances remain weak. A new Labour government will give immediate high priority to seeing how public money can be better used.
New Labour will be wise spenders, not big spenders
This government just gets funnier and funnier.
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Who would take the job?
No one believes Labour can win the next election, so no one is prepared to tarnish their CV with a loss as leader - let Gordon lose this one and then have a leadership contest. Even MP's in marginals are aware that no leader at the moment can help the situation, unless Britain's economy suddenly booms, and Iraq's/Afghanistan's rebels suddenly become sheep and petrol suddenly halves in price.
Any realistic leadership candidate will wait until there is a chance of being seen as labour's saviour, rather than another stopgap
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I don't know. Chap puts on the clobber, works damn hard all his life and for what? For what?
Answer us that Mr Brown if you're listening, which I very much doubt you are.
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If they decide to go down a new party route I am sure they will be pressing for proportional representation.
Only as disingenuous ploy to get LibDems to campaign half-heartedly in Labour/Con marginals. Then, once they've got 'The Ring' it'll be like Tony Blair spitting in Paddy Ashdown's face all over again?
Proportional Representation Paddy? Whatever gave you that idea? Now, off you go while I release details of your little fling and discredit you.
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'An atmosphere of weary resignation has overtaken his party'.
Is that the best this great British nation is entitled to?
So Gordon Brown has messed up the economy and mortgaged our future and we're just stuck with him?
Isn't this how revolutions happen? A ruling elite turns its back on the population and says you've got no choice.
The real truth is the Treasury has shut its doors to all of Gordon's grandiose plans. if you want an unbiased, apolitical view of the situation listen to Mervyn King who is telling you there is nothing he can do and it's going to get worse.
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Looks like dear old Gordon'll be redoing his CV pretty soon. Oh dear, where will he go when they dump him? Somewhere in the banking sector perhaps? Although that might not exist pretty soon the way things are going. Maybe he'll join Tony and do the US speech circuit. Love to see it, out of sight like Tony: out of mind.
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19, I'm a Labour voter. Harmann declaring herself a class warrior is less believable than Hitler being multi-culturalist.
She is about as working class as my dog is a concert pianist.
By making that speech she made herself look a ridiculous hypocrit and the once-great Labour Party look like it was cluching at straws.
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#50
Thanks for bringing this up in black and white for all to see! Unfortunately I've only had a limited amount of brave face when it comes to this government and I ran out a while back.
Hopefully when it's all over I'll be able to look back and laugh at the staggering levels of Liebore's hypocrisy! But a small part of me dies a little every time I remember that we're stuck with them for another 18 months or more...
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@50
The Conservatives could lift that directly out of Labours 1997 manifesto and put it into their 2010 one.
Osborne really should be making mileage out of that one,
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Nick you are right, no change of leadership would help the labour party.
It is beyond help.
The problem is there is not another party that gives any confidence in their ability to do the job.
I will vote for a smaller party next time, UKIP.
The old saying that to do the same thing again and again and expect a different result is a sign of maddness.
I will give UKIP a vote if only to try and get rid of the to and fro from Lab. to Con.
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@56
Didnt your dog take over from Jools Holland when he left squeeze?
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The real truth is the Treasury has shut its doors to all of Gordon's grandiose plans. if you want an unbiased, apolitical view of the situation listen to Mervyn King who is telling you there is nothing he can do and it's going to get worse.
I sincerely hope Mervyn King is adamant about that. The 'independent' BoE is composed of four treasury plants and four 'independent' members plus King. It wouldn't take Brown long to 'stack' the MPC just as Tony Blair stacked the House of Lords.
We need the 'guilty' ie the over-borrowed government, the over-borrowed public and the over-borrowed banks to get exactly what their imprudent behaviour deserves. Because if they don't, they'll just do it again. And again. And continually drag the rest of us down with them.
Why are my grandkids still going to be paying for the 'Foot and Mouth' crisis or Northern Rock?
Why can't we just get a government that will balance the budget and keep it balanced? Ideally pay off our debt completely?
Why is it so hard? I don't spend more than I earn. Never have. Even when I had a mortgage I didn't then go out and get another mortgage for more money the following year. To buy a car. And a foreign holiday. Or a 'review' into 'poverty'.
What is wrong with this government? How is it possible to be so financially incontinent?
All that will happen is that Gordon will blame 'global factors' and blow his 'golden rules' out of the water and squander 80bn this financial year and 120bn the next. That's the only option he has.
He's a Labour PM. Just watch him.
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Most decent, right thinking chaps think you are a poor excuse for a PM so what have you got to say to that, Mr Gordon "Fares Please" Brown??
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With respect to other posters I don’t think nick is wrong despite today’s news.
Mps by their very nature are spineless yes men, the whips make sure of that in all parties.
It appears a handfull have found their backbone and said enough.
Lets just see if that inspires others into doing the same.
Personally I don’t think it will.
Mps only represent themselves not us, so Labour mps have two viable options I can see.
1) They can try and salvage what they can by taking a gamble on a new leader. But I doubt they would be able to hang on for 18 months without going to the country.
2) Rough it out and making the best of what’s left, so if the worse does happen they will be busy making sure they are secure financially.
If I were a labour mp (thankfully I am not aligned with that lot) personally given those choices I would have to choose option 2.
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50. U9461192
Fantasic: Keep posting that:
Interesting:
Last September George Osborne pledged to match Labour's spending plans for the three years until 2010/11. The party almost certainly will not repeat the pledge. At most there'll be a pledge to match spending for one extra year if the election is called in 2010.
The decision has been taken for a number of reasons:
The deterioration of the economy and the public finances;
A need to create room for economy-boosting tax relief (David Cameron hints at the changed attitude to tax in The Sunday Telegraph);
A deep change in the public mood which now does not believe in the value of extra public spending.
One aide to Cameron siad "An incoming Conservative Government will inherit a desperately weak economy. Most voters realise that the economic situation is dire and will respect the first political party that levels with them. Restraint in public spending is the most important manifestation of the needed honesty."
deja vou anyone?
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Ultimately the left have nowhere else to go. The LibDems, with the honourable exception of Mr Cable, are nowhere to be seen. After tea, biccies and hugging with Dave the unions will still be stuck with the reality that the aims of his business backers are at odds with those of organised labour.
Cameron's economic pronouncements, meanwhile, are a pretty thin warmed-over gruel of private enterprise, deregulation and devil-take-the hindmost - essentially the failed policies of 1997. Cameron's main asset at the moment is that he is Not Labour, and as such is subject to little serious scrutiny.
Wherever the fault may lie, NuLabour is currently caught up in (and contributing greatly to) a worldwide realignment of relative prosperity. Like it or not, many middle-eastern and asian countries have caught up and are wanting a bigger slice of the pie, partly at our expense. Cameron and his socially-privileged front bench will have the resouces to supplement their short rations. Some business supporters may even profit. However friendly his public image you know deep down that Cameron will not feel the pain felt by most of the population. You'll not see Cameron elbowing his way to the short-dated racks in Tesco or doing his own oil-changes. Suddenly the sour-faced son-of-the-manse may seem like the only straight man in town.
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Dear Nick,
Am I that of a rebel that my blog is now over two hours late and still not here!
I put it down to your ever short lunch break and not that I printed such wicked drivel!
If I un-said the joke about MONERGY would that help?
Xxxx
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You'll not see Cameron elbowing his way to the short-dated racks in Tesco or doing his own oil-changes. Suddenly the sour-faced son-of-the-manse may seem like the only straight man in town.
S'cuse me? The only straight man in town. Mathew Parris has something to say about that on one level but on another level I would say if he is the only straight (in the sense of 'honest') politician we can choose from then we are utterly doomed.
If he is the high-point in probity in public office then we might as well all cut our throats before his ID-card demanding Jackbootistas do it for us.
No more boom and bust? Balance the budget over the 'cycle'? I will not answer that question on increasing NI because otherwise I'll be here all night answering other questions on the hundreds of taxes that are constantly under review?
Straight man?
Ha. Ha ha ha. Hahahahahahahahaha.
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People are upset and angry with you, Mr Brown. Why don't you listen? Why don't you make some changes? You will lose your job if you don't.
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Nick
It is without doubt a tragedy that this slow-motion car crash is incapable of a speedy resolution. In the meantime the Country is being genuinely damaged by paralysis of Goivernment , unable to respond to major world events. The contrast with the response of authorities inthe USA is quite striking. Governments may not always be a force for good but by God they can certainly make things worse!
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I don't think there is any mystery at all about how it looks like Brown will survive up to the next election with no serious leadership challenge.
As others have already said here, who on earth would be daft enough to take on the job of party leader now? They all know that all they would do is lead the party into certain defeat and be gone before the next election. There is no way anyone could turn the party around now.
Sensible labour MPs with their eye on the top job will wait until after the general election. GB's position will be untenable after leading the party into the biggest defeat for decades, and the new boy will have 5 years to prepare for the next general election, which they might actually win. By that time, we'll have had 5 years of the Tories and have all remembered why we voted labour in the first place back in 1997.
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1) Nick - I laugh everytime I read your Blog, you try so hard to be neutral but it is so obvious you love Labour and all the lefty comrades.
2) If Harriet Harperson ever takes over as PM I will immigrate!
3) I hope after the next election that we dont see another Labour goverment ever again!
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It's not just "Gordon in limbo" as Nick writes, but the whole country as we wait patiently for an opportunity to finally remove this failed Labour government from office at the ballot box
True, Brown has been the author (or co-author) of Labour's misfortunes, but the electorate must take some share of the blame for voting for the party in the first place.
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Whatever happened to good old fashioned common sense? If you don't have the lolly, you don't buy a brolly.
Seems to me that the present government has forgotten the basics.
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Sad state of affairs for the country in that all Labour Mps can do is choose between oblivion, or a good 18 month troughing followed by oblivion.
many times the similarities between the Berlin bunker in '45 and Downing street '08 have been pointed out, but for a different take on it, try googling gordon Brown's downfall - the prequel.
If nothing else it will cheer you up until the next bill hits the mat.
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For shame.
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@60 No that was a Polish dog. Mine wouldn't do it for less than 12 Bonios a week
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Not one of your strongest pieces Nick but you put the finger on what I think everybody knew, that Labour were resigned to stick with him. It will be interesting to compare the different party conferences: the Lib Dems first (I think) then it's the Tories (in B'ham) then Labour (I think).
Both Labour and Conservatives are equally guilty in a) relying on market forces to sort out "public" sector problems and b) relying on money and private firms to do it. The tories did release I think last year a mini-manefesto pledgin ideas they would follow through, all involved business taking over more parts of our lives to sort it out.
Hopefully during the conferences we won't hear the same tattle from the speakers causing the same tattle to be spouted by most comments here, including my own. It just gets boring and makes you wonder a) about our politicians and b) about the people of the UK. I take it most commenting here didn't vote Labour in '97,'01 and'05.
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And to those who think Nick is a bit to Labour leaning you did read his previous piece on the train with Mr Cameron. That was a bit too Tory leaning to me.
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#75
I agree. Absolutely disgusting.
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@72
I think you will find that the majority of the country did not vote for them at all.
Personally I know I directly voted against.
If memory serves they got around 36% of the vote the last time around. I am sure someone can correct that figure if incorrect
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50. U9461192
I just had to have a read over lunch.
A few other quotes from the 1997 Labour manifesto:
Save to invest is our approach, not tax and spend.
New Labour will establish a new trust on tax with the British people.
Our long-term objective is a lower starting rate of income tax of ten pence in the pound.
We will examine the interaction of the tax and benefits systems so that they can be streamlined and modernised.
We will enforce the 'golden rule' of public spending - over the economic cycle, we will only borrow to invest and not to fund current expenditure.
We will ensure that - over the economic cycle - public debt as a proportion of national income is at a stable and prudent level.
Small business: We will cut unnecessary red tape.
We will be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime
Police on the beat not pushing paper
Crackdown on petty crimes and neighbourhood disorder
Protect the basic state pension and promote secure second pensions.
We will reject the boom and bust policies which caused the collapse of the housing market.
We will reform party funding to end sleaze
I could go on, but Im loosing the will to live.
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@76
Ah yes the national minimum wage ;)
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@78
Nick is impartial in much the same way that Red Lenins dog is partial to a bonio
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Jack Staw has said
"It has become fashionable to have a go at Gordon at the moment but that will burn itself out "
It certainly will Jack, I'm predicting may 2010.
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Tax tax tax. Spend spend spend. That's all we seem to hear these days.
Don't know about you chaps but I'm sick to the back teeth of this same old nonsense from Gordon Brown. Isn't it high time that he reviewed his position?
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72) DistantTraveller
True, Brown has been the author (or co-author) of Labour's misfortunes, but the electorate must take some share of the blame for voting for the party in the first place.
The Tories warning slogan in the last election was ‘Vote Blair get Brown’ - if only ppl had listened to that warning.
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Wheres Derek today
I miss his wit
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They say:
We will examine the interaction of the tax and benefits systems so that they can be streamlined and modernised.
They mean:
We're going to impose the 'Tax Credit System'
They say:
We will enforce the 'golden rule' of public spending - over the economic cycle, we will only borrow to invest and not to fund current expenditure.
They mean:
The annual deficit just about covers the interest on our national debt.
They say:
We will ensure that - over the economic cycle - public debt as a proportion of national income is at a stable and prudent level.
They mean:
We'll rig the 'economic cycle' so that it is nebulous in time and space. We'll borrow hundreds of billions and declare a 'surplus' over the 'cycle'. What are you going to do about it?
They say:
We will reject the boom and bust policies which caused the collapse of the housing market.
They mean:
Actually, we won't. In fact we'll deliberately rig the system so it looks 'independent' but we'll make sure no allowance is made in interest rates to quell a nascent housing boom. In fact we'll borrow hundreds of billions with which to flood the economy to fuel a housing boom. That's what we're actually going to do.
They say:
We will reform party funding to end sleaze
They mean:
I will appoint all my closest friends to the only positions of authority that could possibly indict me.
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#31 Pot_Kettle
This policy is like any other from Gordon Brown, veiled deceit. Behind the £910m headline you discover that we will end up paying. This is because what the energy companies lose through this deal they will pass on as costs to the people who were not eligible or already had insulation.
The treasury is broke and therefore he has nothing to offer in terms of relief other than rearranging the furniture. Why can't he just admit that?
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72 - You need to look at the voting figures. You'll find that Labour polled less than 40% of a turnout that was less than 70%.
Not only did they only get somewhere around 22-25% of the entire avalable electorate, more people didn't vote than voted for them.
In fact the non-voters got it bang on the nail. They didn't vote for a government and a non-government is what we got.
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88. U9461192
Good work, but you missed out my favorite
New Labour will establish a new trust on tax with the British people
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The country is going to the dogs, anybody can see that.
It's high time we took a stand and I for one will not be mowing my lawn this weekend.
Suggest people of like mind consider something similar.
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88. U9461192
Actually this is quite laughable.
The NuLabour manifesto stated:
We will examine the interaction of the tax and benefits systems so that they can be streamlined and modernised.
They impose the 'Tax Credit System'
Which results in:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4407258.ece
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#87
"OLIVERS ARMY" Is out in force today?
Mediocre replies from the frugal and small private cartel..........
"Heres a little thought for the offering"
What was the national debt left by the tories..... (1996 figs)
Do the neo-conservatives advocate a higher rate of interest 15%
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We are at last seeing the fag end of this sad and in many people's opinion somewhat dangerous administration.
It is not only "the economy stupid" it is all the incompetence and failure to deal with the terrible issues that beset this poor benighted nation such as immigration, crime and a collapsing education system together with a general decline in the great institutions of state.
No amount of spin will cover over the cracks that everyone can see with their own eyes every day of the week.
The nation is in trouble and it will take a great deal of effort, courage and will to deal with very difficult situations, for any incoming government.
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An interesting point..having been up here for three hours, I don't spot a single pro-Gordon post.
Do the newlabour posters not do Fridays or Friday afternoons?
Are they all in the pub telling fascinating stories about how to fiddle the benefits system?
Are they resigned to making the most out of their last eighteen months iin a "we're going down together, Biggles" moment?
Who will help them now?They bled the country dry and the Treasury won't pay for any more.
This sitaution is wothout precedent; a govenment paralysed by its own prior fiscal incontinence has had its hands bound fby the Treasury
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Post #6 got the situation spot on - bankruptcy, or something very close to it, is staring us in the face.
Forex markets are telling you that - look at a chart of the trade-weighted value of Sterling over the last year and you will see exactly what the international markets make of it - it is a financial implosion. No one has yet told me where the UK is going to find thje estimated GBP 100 billion which needs to be spent over the next decade on maintaining energy supplies.
But before we can plan a route out of this - if this is even possible - we need to understand why this has happened.
And the answer is pretty straightforward - the usual Labour propensity for building up the bureaucracy, stinging the private sector tax payer to pay for it, and borrowing irresponsibly to keep the public sector caravanserai on the road.
In an era when IT should be driving down the cost of government, Labour has added armies of pen-pushers - one estimate I saw put this at 800,000 over the last eleven years.
Far from promising to maintain Labour's ruinous spending plans for two years, or a year, or even an hour, the Conservatives should promise an immediate cull of the administrative burden. The aim should be to hand out at least GBP 10 billion from admin cost-cuts. This would do far more to help hard-pressed consumers than any energy subsidy, let alone Brown's latest insulation gimmicks.
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Well, out of the frying pan...
The silly season's over, so now we head into the wonderfully febrile party conference season, where much hot air is spouted in an attempt to rally the the tropp sand get some nice soundbites on the news programmes. for the rest of us, the conferences are an amusing irrelevance.
As for anything else, Brown is now suffering from the same problems Major did in the 90's. some of his problems are self-inflicted, some not. Unfortunately, those that aren't are the self same ones that the government tried to grab credit for when they were going well, so the public automatically ascribe fault when things turn.
While being politically agnostic, I don't have a raging hatred of Gordon Brown. I truly believe that he is sincere, and has the heavyweight qualities needed to do the job. He does lack a certain confidence however. Perhaps this comes from the feeling that he hasn't had a proper mandate for what he's doing? Who knows?
However, one thing Brown has been a driver of is the culture of the metric: nothing has meaning unless it can have a number assigned to it. I come from a science background and currently teach computing, so am not unused to the quotidian use of the metric, but the current over reliance on them is really quite frightening. The nightmare of SATs, school league tables and hospital league is utterly depressing. It's even creeping into Higher Education.
To all those people who worship the metric, I refer them to the words of Albert Einstein:
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
How very wise he was.
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My house has cavity wall insulation, loft insulation and double glazing because I thought that was the right thing to do (prudent if you want a word..) will get absolutely no help to offset fuel bills increases? But I will pay indirectly when the energy companies charge more to finance the payment to the people who didn't do this?.
Oooh , that was thought through wasn't it
- and does it remind you of of the economic cycle borrowing. In good times perhaps we might have done the insulation for the bad winters - or did we just spent it like a drunken sailor - bit like Labour did ?
Thanks for nothing - enjoy your retirement GB when it comes
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I read today that the price of oil is now down from $135 to $100 a barrel, and falling. If this is the case, we should be seeing some price reductions at the pumps.
Funny how the price of oil is linked to our energy bills when it suits the energy companies to put up the prices (and of course, the government make more money out of the VAT), but when the oil starts to fall in price, our high energy bills suddenly become due to a downturn in the world economy. It all stinks!
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Just to stir the crazy attitude a bit......
Everyone in Zimbabwe is a millionaire.....
"YET" only a few of them can afford a loaf of bread..
"HummmmmmBug"
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94. derekbarker
Afternoon Derek
Got stuck in the Dole-day Chav-pede did we?
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Shellingout: You are right about the price of oil, but we in Britain will not get the full benefit because the price is in US dollars, not sterling. Because the rest of the world disagree with Gordon Brown about our relative economic strength/ability to live through the credit crunch etc. our currency has fallen significantly against the US dollar (and other currencies) recently. So we have to pay more in sterling for dollars and so for oil. Overall sterling has fallen about 14% against a basket of other currencies since Gordon Brown became prime minister.
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96. RobinJD
Its Giro day in market towns across the land.
Where do you think they are?
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What was the national debt left by the tories..... (1996 figs)
I believe it was 350bn in 1997. Today (including 110bn PFI) it 650bn-ish. 300bn more. ALmost doubled. It will be double by March. Waaaaay more than doubled by May 2010.
Do the neo-conservatives advocate a higher rate of interest 15%
When were interest rates ever 15%? For how long? The whole afternoon?
Anyway, it certainly knocked a housing boom on the head before it got too out of control. This latest boom has seen prices boom even more than prior to the 1989/90 bust. So we can expect things to get worse from here. And borrowing has already doubled before we really get into the bust. Borrowing will have quadrupled at least before we see the other side of this one.
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A lot of these Socialist types seem to think that the country going to rack and ruin is one big joke. Well it isn't.
If they want a good laugh, why don't they try repeats of Morecambe and Wise? If they have the wit to appreciate classic comedy that is.
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@ 56 It is clutching at straws - maybe even Straw!
@71 Nick Robinson - didn't I read that he was once a Monday Club Tory?
I think NR has mastered the ability of being as neutral as is possible, something which his immediate predecessor found to be impossible - and still does. He seems to enjoy himself which is a great asset and does not take himself too seriously. Of my personal favoured BBC political commentators he comes a very close second to Brillo.
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#100
Agreed. However don't forget that the pound is dropping like a stone due to any foreign investor with an IQ higher than a boiled egg withdrawing his money from the UK. This will offset this price movement.
I think we will see energy prices dropping but it takes a while for these things to work through the system. It depends on how often the energy companies review their prices.
However it's good news that oil prices are falling. This was predicted by the Bank of England though so it should already be priced into the marked to some degree.
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Just to stir the crazy attitude a bit......
Everyone in Zimbabwe is a millionaire.....
"YET" only a few of them can afford a loaf of bread..
"HummmmmmBug"
'Executive Lunch' after a hard week at the statistics factory?
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#94
Do the neo-conservatives advocate a higher rate of interest 15%
No of course not, who would? However, as proven the lower rate enjoyed over the last few years has been falsely bolstered by borrowing and more borrowing. Now people are paying the price. People can borrow no more neither can Super Gordon and his magic lines. We are now all bought to account and have been found wanting (and greedy).
We are as a nation not producing anything. (which historically is the only way to make money). I'm no economist but the basic rules apply. You supply a product, someone buys it off you, for more than it cost to produce. Product demand increases as does the workforce to develop and manufacture. Everyones happy.
We are not producing anything that anyone is buying.
The only significant employment growth, seems to stem from pointless non descript jobs, such as Compliance Consultants and other nonsensical titles. Non of whom seem to anything but produce endless reams of forms, to make everyones life just a little be more expensive and complicated.
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@97
800,000 is a conservative (small c) estimate.
The true figure is closer to 2 million if you include think tanks and the potatoe qango(e included for Americans).
I work with a guy who is in the 40% tax bracket and he openly stated at the last election that his vote had been bought by Labour because his wife was employed by one of the aforementioned qangos and turkeys dont vote for christmas.
By that reckoning the Labour Party bought 4 Million votes in the last election and they only got around 16 million votes in total.
I suspect that the only votes they will get next time will be the 4 million bribe votes and the 3 Million benefit hounds.
Can anyone worked out how many seats they will get on 7 Million votes?
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#102
Having a bad hair day????
or are the pennies not converting to the pound..quite quick enough
The carrot is corroding in by-gone years
By the right quick.......LAUGH.....LAUGH
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Comment from the chap at 104. I see that you're a person who definitely does have the wit to appreciate Eric and Ernie!
To be lighthearted for a second, I heard this one the other day.
How many Socialists does it take to change a light bulb?
Six!
One to actually change the light bulb and another four who sit around just watching and not doing anything.
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#110
Because thatcher and the tories sold off all the UK's assets......Think about it!!!!
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@96, 102 and 104
I've been reading these blogs now for some time and have always agreed with almost all you say regarding Brown and the Labour party.
However, sneering at benefit claimants does you no credit. Especially in view of the rapidly growing ranks workers who will be laid off owing to the recession precipitated by the rank incompetence of Brown and his advisers.
Labour's core supporters will not be in the pub or waiting in line for a giro, Labour's core support now resides solely in Westminster, awaiting deserved oblivion.
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In the last election didn't the Conservatives win the popular Vote in England (Blimey and that was under Michael Howard!).
No wonder the English are getting such a kick in!
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/09/05/do0501.xml
Afternoon all, travelling this morning and only just caught up with you all.
Read the above on my plane this morning and bugger me, well no actually, don't, then I go and read Nick Robinson. Similarities?
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111:
Thanks. I think my 800,000 figure is just the ones who sit in offices pushing bits of paper around (and dreaming up bizarre regulations and ever more restrictive legislation). Your much higher figures are probably pretty accurate. These people are a total waste of space, and moreover are crippling both the economy and the public finances.
I seem to recall the Conservatives commissioning a study of this issue before the 2005 election and finding that tax cuts of GBP 20 bn were pretty easily achievable without cutting core services.
But what we need now are leaders with the guts to take on this issue. Say to the bureaucrats : 'after the next election, which your Labour friends cannot win, you are on the dole'. And say to tax payers in the private sector : 'as soon as we're in power we will hand you X amount as an immediate tax cut'.
That should prove a vote-winner!
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Nick
I have a request of the BBC.
Can you stop putting pictures of Gordon Brown on every article in which his name is mentioned.
I had to be restrained from smashing my computer monitor a few minutes ago when I caught site of his annoyingly dour face.
He looks like a Plastic Bulldog that was placed too close to an open fire.
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Chaps are not happy, Mr Gordon "Captain of the Titanic" Brown!
Is it asking too much that you apologise for your mistakes and try to do better from now on?
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108 - Oil falling in price is USUALLY a good thing. However, in this instance it's falling despite foreign currencies dropping against the dollar, despite gold dropping in price, despite OPEC reducing oproduction and despite the hurricane season interrupting production in the Gulf.
It's dropping because the American economy os moving into recession. Their economy still has a large manufacturing base that uses vast volumes of oil. As they slide, their consumption drops and it's is this that is really lowering the price.
Therein lies the danger. The saying 'When America sneezes the world catches a cold' is very true. If the US economy goes down we're going down with it.
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114. derekbarker
Which assets are we talking about Derek?
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#122
Are you serious.....which assets indeed!
Come on, I know your stuck in a time warp but.......Wow!!!!!!!!
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119. Pot_Kettle
Go for it.
Im biking over a new screen as we speak.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/GordonBrown2004.JPG
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@121
We (The UK) are going down despite the US economy.
The US caught a cold, Thanks to Gordon leaving us with no cash to buy lemsip we are heading for pneumonia
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122. CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
There's gold in them thar hills, oops, no there's not, El Gordo flogged it all, didn't he deggsy @ 114?
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Nick,
Naughty.
You are trying to direct news again. Really, we don't need spin from you - we get plenty from the Government without your help.
Brown is as loathed by the public as he was before. Just because Westminster believes it can tell everyone what they *should* believe doesn't mean the rest of the country cares.
Please stop touting the party line for once and just give unbiased reporting - after all, it's the tax payers who pay your salary not the Government.
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Pot....tie put the kettle on
Hers my handle ...Heres my spout..
Have a nice day....turn it around...
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All the Council Tax going on new uniforms for Traffic Wardens.
Thousands and thousands of pounds spent on people who like Quangos.
Busybodies coming to everyone's house.
Johnny Come Latelys like Gordon Brown laughing up their sleeves.
This simply cannot go on for much longer. Roll on 2010 is what I say.
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What is breathtaking about the governments financioal incontinence is that this has happened at a time that tax revenues from fuel prices have gone up seven fold.
The oil price has risen form 20 to 147$ yet labour STILL hasn't got enough money form its greedy tax receipts.
Stamp duty increased form a flat rate of half a percent to top rate of 4% and te housing market went to all time highs yet labout STILL haven't got enough money.
What one earth are they doing with it all? Where on earth has all this money gone?
These peopel are greedy and incompetent and the y have the gall to came and lecture us about equality and fariness in society when they have presided over a tragic loss of civil liberties, a snooper society and a dependency culture with two milion on incapacity benefits.
Their legacy is waste, corruption, financial incompetence, hubris, boasting and a financial liability in public sector pensions and PFI debt that will last for decades.
This is a disgrace and an apology for a government.
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Robin with his perpetual JD hood of doom
Emotion of a lesser kind.....Hmmmmmm
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123. derekbarker
Indulge me Derek. Which assets?
Are we talking about all those highly profitable nationalised industries that we used to own?
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123. derekbarker
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3321667.ece
Call if you want me to read it to you.
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130 RobinJD
Maybe El Gordo's prudence extends to stashing it all safely in the same overseas deposit account Mugabe uses
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Oh come on moderator what have I done now?
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@124
Saved by the proxy server.
Apparently thats offensive material :-D
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So, Gordon Brown is being unfairly attacked is he? Well, excuse me if I take a different view. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall Sir Winston Churchill managing to see off Mr Hitler without resorting to "Worker Famine Tax Credits" or anything of that nature.
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#133
Get with the up to date message's
Timesonline/ tories in despair
Who's the next leader goning to be.....
honestly...carrot...sharpen up....break out and convince the neo's
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And I'm sure I'm not alone in being heartily sick of the never ending stream of "Political Directness" that comes from the likes of Harriet Harperson. Seems like you can't go quietly about your business these days without someone from a Quango or the council sticking their oar in.
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"a politics without sympathy, unable to engage with everyday life"
Who do you reckon uttered those words?
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haha my post gets refered but Del boy is allowed #128
priceless
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Dearest Nick,
Please forgive my potty mouth and harsh words that have so offended you in my 11.30am comment (25).
My words have caused you pain and so I apologised whole-heartedly.
It is now over 5 hours since that post and I feel I have slated your good name and un-biasness.
Please explain why I have failed you so. I wait unabatedly in verbatim and a bit confused as my post wasn't that bad to some of the pollytonybee stuff you usually have here.
Xxxx
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139. derekbarker
Ok well Im off for a beer with the team. look forward to catching up later.
If you can think of an asset that the Tories sold Id love to hear about it.
Im not really too sure how the Tories feel today, but I suspect despair isnt one of the emotions they are experiencing.
Gleeful euphoria and joy… perhaps despair no.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7613086.stm
Keep your fingers crossed, with luck this trickle might soon become a stream
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Where has all our hard earned money gone? Is it true, as people are saying, that we haven’t any left? Has our gold bullion been lost by Gordon Brown too?
If it is true, it's a crying shame and an affront against all that's decent.
The man makes sport of us with his devilish tricks.
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I think you are trying to rationalise the irrational here, Nick.
The problem for Labour is that the PM is being ignored, or more properly discounted. So throwing him overboard won't improve things, UNLESS there are a whole lot of new policies that attract attention and support and, more significantly, there are signs that new faces in Cabinet are focused on effective delivery before headlines.
The problem for Brown is that he is, simply, irrelevant to his party's fate. That must surely be the worst judgement possible on the career of any putative leader...
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So, a message from Colin Prout for Labour supporters if there are any left. According to the latest opinion polls Gordon Brown is miles behind.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
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Just as it was thought that Gordon was free along comes a government whip and now there must be a leadership contest.
There must be a competition for leader where the candidates must put forward a manifesto on which they can be held to.
There must be a stalking horse candidate, for an MP to put his/her head above the parapit. A huge number of MPs want a leadership election.
Gordon is a good man, but sometimes good men do not make good Prime Ministers.
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Gloom in our boardrooms.
Housewives up in arms at the price of a chicken breast.
Disquiet in the farming community.
Whole swathes of Glasgow on disability benefit.
Ugly looking Quangos eating up the countryside.
Salivating non tax paying ferrets ruling the roost in our inner cities.
No money even for decent right thinking types.
Chaps forbidden to ride up hounds.
Chaps forbidden to do smoking in their own back garden.
Chaps forbidden to use a spade.
Thank you, Mr Blair and Mr Brown, for 13 years of Labour government. Thank you very much.
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#148
Imperial rather than metric
Nice to know some old labour people still out there.
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Nick - please can you start to call it like it is. We are in recession, things are going from bad to worse, we have a dithering inept wounded and practically useless PM. That is about it. If you start to see the election coming in your broadcasts we might get what the country wants and needs which is a new government. The economic bounce will be inevitable after it as well!
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http://www.order-order.com/2008/09/blairite-plotters-attack-browns-one-off.html
Ferrets are in the sack!
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My goodness! An MP with the guts to stand up and declare her feelings.
Methinks however that greater forces are at work here. Someone senior in the Cabinet - possibly the good Foreign Secreary - has decideon Stage 2 of his campaign.
However, I don't think anyone can stop Labour losing the next General Election, they can only reduce the damage.
This is how the Tories' decline began. Now it's Labour's turn.
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If Brown had any self pride, he would let us have an election right away. It could not be any more strikingly obvious that he and his cronies fill normal people with disgust. It is like a sick joke that we have been saddled with the huge buffoon. Anyone that believes there is anyone in the Labour party qualified to do an intelligent job of leading the country is addled. In every way, their solutions are the opposite of what this country needs - why don't we just copy Singapore?
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derekbarker
I think you should study a little history, old boy.
The assets of any nation are its terrirtory (land and sea), the natural resources it can glean from them, but above all - the efforts of its population.
The Tories "sold off national assets". You mean they passed back into private ownership the industries that had been developed by private capital and resources, but nationalised by Atlee's government. If that lot had taken stakes in companies devestated by the impact of WWII, injected money (from the Marshall plan hand-out from the USA) and encouraged a better way to go about doing business, the UK would not have been in a mess until the late 1990s.
I didn't like the manner of many "privatisations". Would have preferred significant Government stakes, so some benefits would have flowed directly, rather through corporation taxes. But sincerely wanted ministerial influence to back the hell out of companies.
Brown raised GBP20Bil by auctioning wavelength to telecom companies. Not that wavelengths "belong to" or were "invented by" any government - just because he could raise money.
He could have used that to buy stakes in industry. Instead he did what? Invent more complex ways to raise tax and make it very difficult for the really needy to claim ack some "handout" from the State.
The UK's point of greatest economic strength (and probably an appalling social environment) was in the late Victorian era. What did the State own then? Not a lot. Parliament was an enabling conduit. At some point, when the UK understood how to develop transport (and exported that competence around the world), the railways built 1,000 miles of track within 10 years. It takes decades just to get approval to build a few miles of anything nowadays.
But, then, MPs and Governments accepted that they could try and help encourage a more "just" society. Not imagine they could run business.
Problem is that we have lifelong politicians, most of whom have never been part of the real life environment, who believe that passing laws, rules, regulations is the same as DOING something.
If in power, introducing taxes is easy. Any idiot could do it. But a wiser bunch would step back and wonder if that is really the purpose of their existence.
Frankly, I don't care whether Brown or Labour stay or go. I do care about what they do while they have the levers of power.
And Brown's "cunning plan" to help the energy-poor by promising them a possible fix to their insulation within the next 3 or so years, is frankly an insult.
Do we all need to conversve energy? Yes. But why tell some poor old soul that they could be on a list and just shove on another woolly jumper for this year?
The man's a well meaning buffoon.
Blair was a... Well, let's just count the properties.
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Did people really think that Labour MPs would just sit calmly and quietly whilst opinion polls indicate doom and certain unemployment? The survival instinct of MPs against a failing of their own Government will always triumph against any notion of Collective Responsibility.
Labour threw away their best assest in Tony Blair - that guy knew how to win elections and was personally popular.
Brown is lacklustre and unpopular. He's schemed for so long to be PM - hope he and all his cronies are happy. If the decline continues and Labour lose another by-election in Scotland (there is every chance) then something will be done - or we will have to wait until the European Elections in 2009? If nothing by then it probably will be too late...
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Nick
Brown safe?
You must be spending too much time being confortable with the 'estalbishment' rather than being in touch with real people.
Odd that a call to challenge the PM doesn't make the front page of the BBC news site...
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#150 Colin
"Whole swathes of Glasgow on disability benefit."
Oh dear, you don't actually understand what happened do you?
The number of people claiming sickness related benefits in the UK more than trebled between the late 1970s and the mid-1990s as employment in many traditional industries collapsed. You do know who was in power during those years don't you?
Not only do you misrepresent the city by exaggeration - the high level of disability claimants are concentrated in pockets of multiple deprivation, not "huge swathes" - but you lack the basic political comprehension of the causation under Thatcher.
New Labour has done little to alleviate the problem as they share with the Tories the neo-liberal economic and social strategy promulgated by OECD.
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Blair knew how to win election......
The great British people wanted change in 1997...Blair was the wrong man in the right place at that time......
ME....I will never forgive what Blair has done to the peoples party...there he sits in his mansion...having caused the world, a debt that will never be re-payed....
TB a first rate clown with a blue heart..
lets all hope that politics has returned and the shallow one mind set has gone and gone forever....
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139. derekbarker
Derek
I checked Timesonline/ tories in despair
Its a very helpful.... except its from October 3, 2005.
Nice try though.
Found any assets yet?
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Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime
And they give us:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2823148/Female-murderers-Halloween-party-prompts-ban.html
Superb pic in the Sun
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1678598.ece
They include Jayne Richards, 35, who butchered her lover in a row over Christmas decorations, and Rochelle Etherington, 21 — who gouged out her dying victim’s eye with a screwdriver.
Nice one Jack… Fantastic…
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159. oldnat
Thats what you get for sending Derek down.
We have our big guns too!
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It looks like the BBC was beaten to the post this time by ITV! My goodness - and Nick thought Gordon was "safe".
Bring back Blair, say I. Don't know how they can do it - but where there's a will ...
An opinion poll this weekend (amongst ordinary voters, I mean)?
Wonder what the bets are on Gordon making it to the conference?
In case you don't know, Progress magazine is releasing an article tomorrow from Patricia Hewitt and other Blairites, at which you can have a sneak preview if you can stand visiting my blog.
Google "keep tony blair".
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161
Back-so-early......Can I say that i was pointing out, that someone with my political agenda would never touch the times...
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I'm not bothered if he (or she) is a Druid, Catholic, Greek Orthodox etc etc or Anglican but we badly need a priest to sort things out. We seem to have a zombi government. And an exorcism is way overdue. Are this lot capable of doing anything that prevents problems or solves problems. It all seems to be sticking plaster stuff. About as useful as an aromatherapist if your in a major motorway pile-up. There is all this hype about new policies and it's all small flop after small flop. Nothing of substance.
To make things worse the main zombi strategy seems to be to stare at the moving headlights like a rabbit and hope things go away. Well they will eventually but it's grim theatre in the meantime.
It is irrelevent if Inactionman Brown goes due to a Labour tribal upset, the whole lot will be gone fairly soon. If a priest can't sort them out the voters will, They should rename Number 10 the Waiting Room.
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165 derekbarker
The times they are a changing.
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#167
Yes, very interesting times...if it pans out in favour of Nulab.....than I would expect fire-works...north of the border (celebrationary)
Trying hard not to have a knee jerk re-action////// a public out burst by an mp is very worrying.........the likely hood of more to come.....politics all knifes and ropes Eh...
listen.. I hope you can find peace.......
with the issue you related too earlier.,.
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Gordon Brown cannot even get a simple insulation offer right. He is incompetent in the extreme and should be removed, we cannot have somebody so clearly flawed in charge of this country.
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165. derekbarker
I believe you Derek
Any luck with that list of assets Thatcher sold?
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#170
Carrot, at this time it pains me to say this
however refer to oldnats post, there ls the absolute truth..thatcher sold the whole of British industry down the tubes, in her industrial revolution agianst the working man........how many multi national industries can you name that are solely owned by British people----dont say Branson look at his board of greedy receivers.......
good luck.........me..I maybe looking at a brand new constitution...
magna carta....still makes me ....laugh
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Briefly, when Brown came in I bought into the idea that he was a good thing. I was never a Blair fan and I was prepared to put aside the stories of Brown's scheming for power and my grave reservations about PFI and look forward to a period of solid, unflashy, competant government. I even quite liked the Scottish 'son of the manse' thing. Alas, whilst a master of his brief at the Treasury, he is simply in the wrong job - he knows it, we know it, he knows we know it. It's a train wreck. Blair's grin knows no bounds - he never cared for the Labour party (nor they for him) and timed his departure to perfection. Brown should call an election and get it over with. There's no city job for him now, but perhaps a clerical post in local government while he pens his next book - 'Courage - the Sequel'.
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Nick you are So gullple , you beleive everything Labour tells you, are you a secretly a Die hard labour activist, i remeber when David Davis resigned you thought this meant David Cameron was loosing his marbles
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171. derekbarker
It pains me that your in pain Derek.
Any news with that list of assets sold.
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I admit I know very little of Siobhan McDonagh's political record, except that she wanted the NHS to provide digital hearing aids to those who needed them. Seems she is now banging away at more, but deliberately, deaf heads! Must say, she looks a lot nicer than Blears or that horrible Harperson!
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#174
We are polls apart on our ideas of a nation wealth......
I measure that wealth..by
1/my family
2/my childrens school
3/my employment
4/local hospital
5/local transport
6/my community
7/local library
8/my church and so on........
these assests were stripped to the core by the last conservative government.....
You my friend...measure your assests by the size of your bank account............ciao...
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176. derekbarker
Lord Derek how much more subsidy do you need.
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#86 Katanamochi
The Tories warning slogan in the last election was "Vote Blair get Brown" - if only ppl had listened to that warning.
True - but in the end Blair and Brown were both as bad as each other. Many voters at the last election were not old enough to remember the Winter of Discontent back in 1979. What we are seeing now is what always happens with Labour - high taxes, runaway inflation, record public borrowing, poor public services, union unrest, too much state control, constitutional mess, etc etc.
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177
May I suggest, that you tread very carefully now! your ill conceived idea of subsidy......may be challenged in away you never thought possible.......
London may well become the epicentre of Englands greatest burden????????
watch out 4 links to come.........
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#80 Pot_Kettle
I think you will find that the majority of the country did not vote for them at all.
Yes, you are quite right that Labour did not get a majority of total votes, yet due to our voting system still managed to get a majority of seats. Nevertheless, my point is rather than just blaming Brown, the people who voted Labour must take some responsibility for all the damage that has been inflicted.
Another bone of contention is the fact that historically Labour has been propped up by their Scottish MPs. Scotland has a disproportionately large number of MPs for its relatively small population. (There are as many people in London as Scotland and Wales put together). Given that Scotland now has its own 'parliament', Scottish MPs now serve virtually no purpose at Westminster. If Scotland were removed from the equation, it is doubtful that Labour would win another election in the foreseeable future.
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179. derekbarker
Ready when you are
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#90 Red Lenin
In fact the non-voters got it bang on the nail. They didn't vote for a government and a non-government is what we go.
If by "non-government" you mean not very good, then I agree!
Sadly, by virtue of their majority, Labour has still inflicted huge damage on this country. Cowardly backbench Labour MPs were too worried about about their careers to stand up to Brown - eg over the broken promise on the constitution referendum and also the 42 days issue.
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Nick,
Brown and his 'out of touch' party must go. The sooner the better. The people of this country do not deserve to have to suffer in the hands of this dreadful government. The Labour Party should be ashamed of themselves. They will get slaughtered at the next 'General Election'. I can't wait.
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Good piece Nick, however i think there is a point that so far everyone is missing:
Firstly I am Scottish born and bread howver left when i was 16 and i am married to an English (Lovely) woman with 3 x kids and i live in England - I have no axe to grind......Ironically Scotland will be Gordon Browns demise, he and Lbour are very very unpopular, the Scottish (probably) will never vote in Conservatives therefore as shown in recent by elections (even in the traditional areas of Central Scotland - where its said a donkey with a Labour rossette would win before any other party)
Well it didnt and the SNP seem to be the only alternative north of the border, they also could win by a landslide! Therefore Mr Cameron (Good Scottish Name) will have to deal with the breakup of the UK/GB.
How ironic will that be - ps altho not in any Party I also feel Gordon Brown has been/is one of the worst PM,s since Foot!
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156 fairlyopen minded
"If that lot had taken stakes in companies devestated by the impact of WWII, injected money (from the Marshall plan hand-out from the USA) and encouraged a better way to go about doing business, the UK would not have been in a mess until the late 1990s."
I think you will find that the UK were paying the Americans back at that time the money they charged us for the out of date fleet that they sold us.
While they were renewing their new fleet and for all the out of date equipment they sold us to fight a world war at one time almost alone.
It was the best scrap metal deal of all time, not that we were'nt grateful.we were so poorly equiped that a couple of cannon off the Victory would have been handy
.A couple of years later.
When eventually after a short sharp shock the Americans decided to come into the war.
They still charged us for everything we required to fight the war despite their enormous recources. They did the same for the Russians.
At the end of the war we were still paying back for the equipment that we had from them.
Which crippled us as a great nation the Russians on the other hand paid for a little while.
Then they told the Americans to get stuffed when they realised that as fast as we were paying them back they were investing the money into Germany and Japan, thats why these two countries made such rapid recovery.
The only big losers losers financialy in that war were the british, The Russians wouldn't and didn't pay all the cash back.
The Germans were recieving the cash with a big smile on their face as were the Japanese.
While good old British honour stood firm and paid for many years until it was all paid back.
Did anyone say well done Britain, no they were all laughing their socks of.
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170 carrots you do keep on dont you margarets legacy
Steel
BT
OIL.
Water.
toll brige over Severn
Gas.
Electricity.
And then she decimated the coal industry. perhaps you should read this by Terry Kelleher wrote april 14th 08.
Thatcher's legacy was a broken and dysfunction society.Her obsession with high interest rates to cure inflation let those with savings get richer and then buy discounted shares in public utilities. Those with mortgages struggled to keep their homes, and frequently failed. Firms went bust and unemployment rocketed. She squandered North Sea oil profits to pay the unemployed, when the money could have been used for a public works programme, fixing our ageing infastructure .Her creation of the internal market in the NHS has given us cost cutting stratagies and MRSA ,CD and other infections.Her wheeze of selling cheap council houses was a device to control local authority spending.It also created a homeless problem that is still with us, as councils could not use sales receipts to build more housing . When she announced naval cuts she was warned publicly by both Jim Callaghan and David Owen that withdrawing the survey ship Endeavour would encourage Argentina to believe Britain was not interested in the Falklands. One of her cabinet, John Nott , I believe , sent her a memo to the same effect.She ignored them all and Argentina invaded.
I wrote a post on this recently but no one seemed interested
But to go on with Terry's account
When the victorious forces returned and paraded through the streets of London, it was Thatcher, I believe , who took the salute, not the Queen , the actual Head of our Armed Forces.Thatcher's presidential delusions probably date from this point. She became arrogant, rude, sneeringly dismissive of any point of view that differed from hers. She was openly contemptous of her Cabinet and Parliament.She sanctified greed and created the "gimme, gimme, gimme" society.Instant credit may have helped industry find new markets but it paved the way for greedy banks and foolish people to create a debt ridden society that is only now revealing its destructive consequences. Example in public life matters. Example from the top matters most. Thatcher made us greedy, rude, intolerant, contemptuous of others, prepared to bully to get our own way, with little patience and no respect for anyone else.Whenever there is a street mugging or someone is kicked to death , we are seeing Thatcher's legacy in action. I lived through it and loathed her for it.
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In many ways Gordon Brown reminds me very much of Margaret Thatcher. Both of them clung to power far too long and eventually lost the affections of The Electorate. Both believed that their sheer stubborness and arrogance in the face of overwhelming criticism would carry them through. Both of them are now loathed by the vast majority of the voters they attempted to sway. In both cases it was bound to end in tears.
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187 misswaldorf
I don't think your comparison of Brown to Thatcher is correct, and nor do I think "both of them are now loathed by the vast majority of voters".
Margaret Thatcher was certainly unpopular with many dyed-in-the-wool socialists. In a way she was responsible for forcing the Labour party to adopt an allegedly more centralist approach (for example ditching clause 4). But many people now accept that the changes she brought about were long overdue.
Nor do I think that Brown is "loathed" as you suggest. On a personal level, he seems perfectly decent, and I'm sure a good person. The problem with Brown is his disastrous policies, particularly for England.
It is Labour, not Brown personally, that people now loath - their poor management of the economy, high taxes, high inflation, broken promises (eg referendum on Euro constitution), snoopers charter for local councils, ID cards, unfair governance for England (compared with Scotland), denial of life saving drugs, fortnightly rubbish collections, speed cameras, speed humps, etc etc.
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"it's not Gordon Brown that's the problem but "the economy stupid" and he's the best man to sort it."
The only possible logic I can see for this argument is that since it was Gordon who got us into this mess he must know how to get us out.
Make no mistake, Britain's dire economic state is not caused by an ill wind from the USA as the mendacious government would have us believe. If that were the case, why is the dollar rising while the pound is sinking? Why is America growing at 3% pa while we are in recession? For the last decade this government has been spending money like it is going out of fashion (it is now) and it has none left to help the poor, beleaguered taxpayer. It also has a mountain of debt (a fact repeatedly denied by Gordon), much of it, Enron style, off-balance sheet in PFIs.
When the chief executive of a company makes a horrible mess of things he is not asked by the board to sort it out; he is fired, and someone else is appointed to fix the mess. Why is this not the case for Gordon Brown?
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I am a single mother with three children, all of which are at school, I lost my partner, and was left to bring my children up and pay the mortgage, I would very much like to return to work, nut the problem is i will not be able to pay the mortgage on my own, and pay for food and heating,and clothes i just cannot afford to go to work, yet if i was in a council house or rented accomodation i would still be able to get help from the government when i have returned to work. My partner paid his taxes as did i when i worked between children when we lived together, now i am on my own life is so difficult, i want to return to work, but i will sooner or later loose my house. The reason i do live in my own house is because once i did work, have i got to loose it, why does the government not help single people get back to work, why do they not continue to pay the interrest on my mortgage as i am single so i can return to work. I think a lot of people are in this situation if GORDON BROWN wants to get people back into work do something to help people help themselves. I think a lot of people would benefit from this which would then increase the amount of money in peoples pockets which would then help the whole nation. Another thing is why does the government only pay 70% towards the child care costs, this should be all paid by the government after school clubs run and paid for by the government, this is another job that should be available to all parents. If there where after school clubs children would be able to play more sports, and do more artistic things which they as children enjoy and do not always have time to do in the day at school. When i think of the things i would do if i had a say in the government I think most things would flow, you cant exspect to make money unless you work for it, GORDON BROWN wont keep his job unless he works hard and remembers people in my situation instead of just making the rich richer and the poor poorer.
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186. grandantidote
Oh I was just toying with Derek, seeing if he could come up with 1 or 2
I see youve listed a some stuff the country used to own. I was really after assets.
Assets are things that make you money or are at least worth something.
You just listed liabilities that lost the country millions each year.
Funny though now they are in private hands they turn a rather good profit.
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re: 190 lorralorraine
I do have a lot of sympathy for people in your situation. It's not just labour/Brown who damaged people in your situation though, it started with the tories many years ago where they gradually reduced the various tax-breaks and benefits related to mortgages etc, their idea was that people should buy insurance/assurance to cover themselves in situations like yours. The trouble is that the cost of that insurance/assurance is so high that it's not viable to cover yourself for all aspects, and the small print in the policies make the whole thing pointless most of the time too.
Then Brown/Labour came along and simply carried on with that idea and did other things to make it worse such as increasing the overall tax burden so that whatever little money you do have doesn't go anywhere near as far as it should.
Speak to the citizen's advice bureau if you haven't done so already; they're free and could well give you some pointers to some benefits/breaks which Brown hides from "normal" people who aren't uber-accountants.
Also write to the company that your husband used to work for and go through as much of his old paperwork as you can, as they might have had a death-in-service policy in place, or some other life assurance or pension which they haven't told you about yet.
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At last. Some common sense. GB is a liability, not an asset, he is heavily discounted in the market for political support, he is not core to the business of government or the Labour Party. Call in the liquidator!
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The problem for Brown is that once this sort of discussion begins it never ends until the leader under its fire leaves office. Its easy for a forest fire to begin but hard to put out. Eventually as with thatcher, major Blair etc it becomes an open wound that cant be sutured. Even if all of Browns current critics went on TV to offer their loyalty the product wouldnt be to close the wound but to infect it with with more speculation rumour and recrimination. This whole affair will continue and anything he does to adress it will deepen the entanglement of any credibility he has with that corrosive force of speculation.
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