Quizzing Cameron
Here are some highlights from the Panorama programme "Next Stop Downing St?" when I travelled to Birmingham with David Cameron to meet five undecided voters (which I wrote about last week).
The Tory leader tells me why he hates the use of the term "our people" in politics.
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A single mother from one of Birmingham's poorest estates tackles Mr Cameron about the number of millionaires in his cabinet.
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Another of the people we spoke to, a radio DJ called Dennis, challenges him about corporal punishment.
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Panorama: Next Stop Downing Street? is on BBC One at 2030, Monday 29 September.
I'm 
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Comments
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Will the Conservative Party be paying Dave's fine for not wearing a seat-belt?
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As the financial world is currently devouring itself, what Dave and his chums do or think seems pretty irrelevant right now.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
I though DC came across OK.
A bit too Blair-like for my tastes, but miles better than anything on the government benches (including that banana-weilding simian).
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Dear All,
It has just been reported that Ulster is to get free prescriptions, leaving us in jolly old' England the only ones picking up the bill..!
Ah, what it is to be the odd one out amongst equals.
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The second video reminds me of a comment Brown made early on in speech last week that no one really picked up on:
"...when people share with me stories about the hard time they're having with bills, I want to help, because I was brought up seeing my parents having to juggle their budget like the rest of us." (http://www.labour.org.uk/gordon_brown_conference)
Which was I think another shot at Cameron, someone who comes from a family that has never really had to worry about money, not like the rest of us.
As it is I'm not too worried about one or two senior members of a party being from very rich backgrounds - my concern really is when a majority of them grew up without really understanding how life is for the majority in the country.
Really, if the tories were more representative in this way they would make a much better opposition.
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Also, can someone moderate #3 'Why not phone your local branch of the nu Labour Gestapo...', not because it breaks the rules, just because it's a bit rubbish.
(ya, new Labour, murdering all the trade unionists, gays and Jews, isn't that just what's happened over the last 11 years).
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Hates the use of "our people". His people are the rich. Who sponsors wee George Osborne's private office?
It's in the political DNA of the Conservative Party of today. The old one nation tories of Ted Heath, Ian Gilmour, Jim Prior etc... were all driven out by Lady Thatcher.
I see no evidence that has changed.
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@ 3 and 4
... "nu Labour Gestapo" ??
... "banana-wielding simian" ??
er ... dunno what you're about with this sort of stuff, Maxie
not that great really, is it, if we're honest.
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FairnessFighter @7,
Just a bit of political hyperbole - like "No more boom and bust" or "I am the right man for the job", etc.
Do these highly inaccurate statements sound familiar?
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sagamix @9,
No not 'great' - or even true in a literal sense.
But as Chuck might say: "like art, my words describe a higher truth...." ;-)
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Ive tried to watch the videos a few times this afternoon.
Keep getting error message: reads The content doesnt seem to be working, try again later
You sure these arent about Brown?
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9. sagamix
Really, then click here
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peteholly @ 8 asks:
"Who sponsors wee George Osborne's private office?"
Dunno....
Bernie Ecclestone?
Lord Sainsbury?
Lord Levy?
The Hinduja brothers?
Lord Hamlyn?
Oooh please sir, do tell.
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Just to show that the Tories are still on the wrong track, they propose freezing Council Tax for the next two years.
All taxes must (ultimately) be based upon ability to pay.
In that sense, Council Tax is inherently flawed and need to be scrapped, not frozen.
I favour local income taxes as a more equitable solution.
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Excellent - considered political debate !
Tony Blair was elected on his ability to stand up in programmes like this one and seem fair and reasonable to the majority of viewers.
Even when he was caught out in areas like tobacco sponsorship and the Dome fiasco, his little boy grin seemed to persuade the voters that this was the type of man who should be Primeminister.
What a mistake that was !
Unfortunately the other political parties have learnt the lesson, and being 'media friendly' is now the prime requirement of a party leader.
Fortunately, I think David Cameron offers a lot more than that, because it will take some astounding thinking to rescue the country from the black hole that Blair and Brown have dumped it in.
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"banana-wielding simian
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Nick just saw you on 6 o'clock news and you told a bare faced lie. The protests in Aberdeen have nothing to with freezing council tax. It has to do with years and years of bad management of Aberdeen City's finances that have come to head. The independent auditors sent to sort the city out recommended £50million in cuts. That is what people are complaining about. Then again it also doesn't help that Aberdeen gets one of the lowest block grants per person in Scotland.
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Max @ 11
But who is the BWS? ... it's just a peculiar sort of thing to say and so I'm curious.
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Carrots @ 13
Sorry, I'm not much of a clicker, always end up buying something! ... you'll have to tell me.
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Cameron will always "sound good", he is plausable until you scratch the surface and find there's very little there of actual sound policy. On Marr yesterday,like all politicians hs couldn't or wouldn't answer straight questions. Many will say just like Brown at PMQs BUT Cameron always makes a big play of Brown not answering Questions and od course he's no different.
The big issue should be policy and at the moment economic policy. The Tories stand in isolation in the economic world at the moment. Every Government sees that Nationalisation must play a part in supporting key financial intituations to maintain stabillity in their financial system.
The Tories however think differently and that's what was meant by the "novice" comment.
I don't like Cameron but the real danger is the one that will get the keys to number 11. Anyone, even me can govern after the event. real decisions have to be taken in the present. Osbourne and Cameron IMO will be minnows in a shark pool.
PS Dispatches tonight will be enlightening!!
No doubt more cries to Pro Labour bias
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He knows people from all different backgrounds he even works with someone from the North.
That's William Hague the original Tory boy. Hardly a different background.
Phew he's not bringing back the cane. Those interviews look phoney.
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Why on earth should you expect somebody who will run the country should be the same as and experience a life like a single mother on a council estate? Could any single mother on a council estate run the country? Would they have the trained mind, expertise, education and confidence to do so?
Why on earth do people who feel insecure and disadvantaged think everybody should be like them? Everybody is different. We are all authors of our own lives. Sometimes people's circumstances are due to their own behaviour or irresponsibility. We all have to live within our income whatever that may be. People on low income can learn to cook, sew and grow vegetables instead of thinking they MUST have a holiday or designer clothes.
I know, it was pretty hard bringing up four children myself when my husband was the only one working but I actually learned to make nutritious meals and sew and knit and we were actually BETTER off in that way than those who have a lot of money and eat out and get takeaways.
It's amazing what you can do when you HAVE to and it can actually be quite satisfying having achieved something.
NEEDS MUST WHEN THE DEVIL DRIVES.
Poor old David Cameron, damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Good job he is tough enough to take it.
There is sometimes a smack of jealousy when people criticise him and his background.
Instead of hankering for more and more (greed again) we should be grateful for what we have and that we are healthy and alive.
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Sorry Nick I will have to give this one a miss. The Dispatches program `Camerons Money Men` which unfortunatly is on at the same time will be much more interesting than watching Cameron pretending he`s on the the same wavelength as ordinary people.
It seems that when he gets home after a hard day being that nice bloke Dave, he dons his dinner jacket to play host to the leaders club, very cozy. Already theres smatterings of sleaze, and they arn`t even in power yet
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20. sagamix
They are just links to web pages that back up the points Max makes.
Dont worry nothing harmful, the mods check em first
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JohnConstable @15 wrote:
"All taxes must (ultimately) be based upon ability to pay."
On that basis (aka 'socialism') people (like me) who work for a living are condemned for ever more to pay taxes for all those too ill, disabled, old, unfortunate or feckless to have a productive job.
The first four categories are understandable - we will all, at one time or another, belong to one of these groups, and providing a safety net is part and parcel of civillised society.
It is subsidising the last group: the ever growing underclass of unemployed - and frankly unemployable - that rankles with people who work hard for their highly-taxed take home pay.
The only reason this group are 'unable to pay' is because the state allows them not to - because you and I pick up the tab.
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21. Eatonrifle
Did you see Marr interview Brown and then Cameron on the couch?
Did you notice any difference in interview technique?
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Carrotts can't wait to hear your take on the "office of Budget Responsibility" Just what we need another QUANGO!
You couldn;t make it up
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18. lab-rat
Gosh must be tough, funding must almost be on a par with an english authority.
Dont stand for it, no wonder your rioting.
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Eatonrifle @21 wrote:
"PS Dispatches tonight will be enlightening!!"
Perhaps. But Nu Labour wont want to raise this issue. They have some very 'nasty' donors of their own.
Some examples (courtesy of Guido Fawkes):
Paul Myners is a director of the hedge fund manager GLG, which with $25 billion under management is one of europe's biggest hedge fund managers. It was until recently 10% owned by Lehmans. Paul Myners gave money to Gordon Brown's leadership campaign and he also gave money to Gordon Brown's think-tank the Smith Institute. Gordon rewarded him with appointments to the Treasury's pension review.
Derek Tullet has also given huge amounts of money to the Labour Party. Tullet's broking firm specialises in servicing hedge funds who want to go short stocks and derivatives.
Gilad Hayeem of the Lehman Brothers backed $2 billion hedge fund, Marble Bar Asset Management (Cayman), contributed to Hilary Benn's deputy leadership campaign.
There are plenty more "evil speculators" who have backed the Labour Party. Just in case you are wondering why Labour is silent...
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Wow! the republican party turn on Bush and the proposed bailout scheme.............
It all kicking off.........where will it end.......
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27# Carrots
Can't you see that anyones view of how the mediaconduct an interview is coloured by their own party bias? I shout at the box when the Tories are being interviewed because I wan't them pressed harder but at least I realise what I'm doing. There is no great conspiracy and Kennedy really was shot by Oswald.
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When did it become a crime to come from a privileged background? Tony Blair ? Harold Wilson, Michael Foot, Wedgewood Benn, Clement Attlee and of course Gordon Brown son of a poor Scottish minister , I dont think ; well paid in a rent free house etc. for pontificating on a Sunday, but never had to work.
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#29
To be fair to Carrots, I think he said this is a 'good' quango it an earlier post when we were discussing ways of making public finance statistics believable.
I think with the new watchdog proposed whether it is good or not will depend on its statutory powers. Will it be an MPC-like body (which Gideon was suggesting), with executive powers over fiscal policy? Another would be what will its remit be (Gideon suggested it would partly be to act to lower and simplify) taxes and pay back the national debt?
The current proposal seems to take a bit too much fiscal policy out of democratic control than would suit my tastes. But it does have some good ideas (i.e. independent monitor of the public finances)
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Cameron obviously knows how to deal and be straight with people...........
...............otherwise these clips were a little too short to draw many other conclusions - other than this is a plug for Nick's show ;-)
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34Balhamu
My take on what Cameron said meant it will have virtually no power other than to "embarrass" the government.
Seems a strange message from the Tories. We can't be trusted or even trust ourselves without a Quango Fiscal wathdog, probably employing likeminded economic D listers like Gideon.
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#12 - CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
Now auntie has decided to restrict access to Nick's video clips to the UK. Not allowed to view them in the third world (Europe) any more. So - much as I would like to - no comment.
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#36
I think it's very clever from the Conservatives.
People don't trust the Government as arbiter of their own fiscal rules, or trust their projections. Set-up right this would solve that problem. I would support a council with these limited powers, as it would prevent those with limited understanding of economics from claiming ridiculous things such as inflation or income does not matter in determining the affordability of debt. The new institution would hopefully be trusted.
The clever politics of it are that, aside from hammering home the message that this Government have been irresponsible, it will institutionalise Conservative policy and tie the hands of a future non-Conservative government.
It will have a remit to decrease debt, simplify taxes and reduce taxes and government spending as a % of GDP. They're a bit unclear about its statutory powers (I don't know if the parallels drawn with the MPC are rhetoric or what they're actually proposing).
But this institution pushing for low tax, low spending, paying back the public debt instead of investing in public services, simplifying taxes and shifting taxes from an income and wealth basis onto an expenditure basis, implementing the reforms proposed by the tax review the Conservatives will implement on obtaining power would tie future Government hands, by getting an institution saying that not doing these things is irresponsible or having statutory powers to frustrate them doing so.
In the context of child poverty, this is exactly the type of thing that Labour are thinking of when they talk about introducing legislation to commit the Government to reducing poverty.
Very clever politics.
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32. Eatonrifle
I can see your point to a degree, but Marr was nothing short of a pathetic, I assume you didnt see the interviews. so here are the links.
Marr with Brown, check out the enormously helpful opening questions, talk about letting the most unpopular since records began off the hook..
Marr with Cameron, funny how he seems to have developed a more robust technique.
A proffessional interviewer should always play devils advocate and test the metal of the man and the arguement to the limit.
Ref: office of Budget Responsibility, I think taking the monitoring and result analysis away from the players is a good idea.
Id like to see a good set of management accounts every qtr.
All politicians will always spin the results to their own ends so it has to be independent.
So Prima facie Im on board. I even gave balhamu the job as CEO and told him to name his salary. Seems to be the way of things with Quangos.
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So, what did boy Dave actually say?
One couldn’t quite get it.
Did he say he would turn the clock back to Socialism and start to regulate our Financial Institutions again?
Did he say that there is no dosh, but like Houdini he would find the dosh with the help of Saint Osborne?
Did he say it would take his party 150 years to build a rail line from London to Leeds?
Did he say that if in power, he would let any Financial Institution go to the wall even though there is a GLOBAL financial problem?
Did he say that he would make sure that Councils would have to collect our rubbish once a month to save money?
Did he say that thanks to his savings he would add another 1.3 million on the dole?
Did he say he would close 20% of our Hospitals to save money?
Tell us Nick, cause some are confused!!!
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So, what does Cameron say tonight
1st scene - Personality is what matters, not policies in your manifesto
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Our inheritance tax changes will help you (unsaid - so long as you die with more than £1.2 million in assets)
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I don't believe social class exists in today's society
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#21 Eatonrifle
"Cameron will always "sound good", he is plausable until you scratch the surface and find there's very little there of actual sound policy."
You're right that he's almost a carbon copy of Bliar. Let's hope that he's not quite such a devious liar.
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Interesting - defending PFI.
Take note Mr U.
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#37 threnodio
Afraid us expats will have to get used to it. The switch to iPlayer and Flash is making less and less news material available to us.
It's obviously fair enough with entertainment material where copyright issues apply, but to start restricting news seems oddly sinister, especially as BBC World News and the World Service give less and less space to UK news.
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The verdict from the panel:
The good: He's a charming man, he's got a presence about him, he's polished, he obviously believes in what he says, he's got a lot of good ideas so long as he's telling the truth
The bad: You can't pin him down, he wants to increase spending and cut taxes at the same time, he doesn't understand the majority of the UK
Likeable, but doubts about delivery and ability to make tough decisions.
Seems to have gone down well with people in Birmingham.
I think events will mean this isn't paid much attention to. Brown managed to get Congress to vote down the US bank rescue to upstage the Conservative conference.
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The Office for Budget Responsibility is "smoke and mirrors" stuff. The government of the day is already held to account on this via Parliament, the Press and ultimately the electorate. To a great extent the markets assess responsibility in this regard as well.
Unless of course "holding to account" means statutory power to overturn the policies/budget of the government of the day?
This would be a level of power being given to unelected officials that most of us would feel uncomfortable with.
It sounds like spin and soundbite that chimes with the current climate. Again though, there is precious little substance upon which to make an evaluation.
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Not worth asking him about the Barnett Formula or the English question of course.
Free prescriptions for the Northern Irish dropped off the BBC politics page pretty damned quick too.
BBC policy "don't mention the English".
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This week on 'The Day Today' we have a party political broadcast on behalf of the Conservative party.
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48# peteholly
Can it be any worse than the cack-handed failure that Crash Gordon introduced?
BoE, FSA and the Treasury! After all they have served us well - haven't they!
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Wasn't as polished as I was expecting - has the look of a man who is 10 yrds in front in the Olympic 100m final only to find he is about to choke and trip up....Two gaffes:1. No seatbelt 2. President Obama - won't go down well.I think Boris is going to be the next great Tory leader - Dave is only going to last one term, if that...
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Haven't watched your prog yet Nick, in spite of your plugging it heavily on this site.
More importantly, and in the throes of capitalist meltdown, your George is proposing, if elected to power, to freeze Council Tax for 2 years.
Let's just think what the consequences of this will be for the millions of people who work for local authorities, delivering vital services:
1)millions of workers falling even further behind in pay and thus standard of living
2) falling standard of service to everyone in the land - that includes children's services, care homes for the elderly, neighbourhood wardens, recycling and carbon reduction initiatives, libraries, theatres, sports centres
Still who needs THEM, when you've got a few extra quid in your pocket? This chimes precisely with old Tory values - a shallow grasping society founded on greed and selfishness.
Back to Thatch anyone?
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48. peteholly
The government of the day is already held to account on this via Parliament the press and ultimately the electorate
Oh dear......
Parliament:
Seeing as the government rather tends to have a majority there, its not that hard to wizz by that great arbiter is it?
The press?
They just want to push a story and sell papers, which means figures get twisted in all sorts of directions to back up a point, Usually Rupert Murdochs.
The electorate?
Most wouldnt have a clue as to what GDP is and how it was calculated, You think they could develop an understanding on debt affordability how much debt the government can safely carry.
Surely any independent institution that is charged with holding politicians to account is a good thing.
In fact let them can take control of the salaries and expenses system too.
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Folks....we really are on the verge of economical disaster......what Cameron says will not mean a jot......when you compare it to todays news''''
This is a real emergency now! it would not surprise me...if parliament is convened early
and consesus and parliament now! work together..........
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53. MinnieSouris
Your world sounds wonderfully warm and fluffy.
Wealth creation is down, the tax take is down.
So..... you have 3 options
A Raise taxes as a proportion of GDP
B Cut services to an affordable level
C Borrow more and pray it all turns out OK
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In fact I think we should demand parliament to recovene as soon as..........
I think it would take a brave person to predict......a fast solution to this crisis.....
The whole world economy is under threat...
As a nation we must collectively come together at this time to ensure......
we set a proper recovery plan..........
we are all in this together.........it is the biggest major threat since WII.....
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Five undecided voters all wanting bespoke treatment for themselves.
Ah! If only life was like that.
Put a little in and get a lot out.
Isn't that why the country is in such a mess.
Well perhaps a period of austerity is just what everyone needs. Not just the poorer section of society.
Then we may see where the real priorities are and make sure they are funded accordingly.
At the moment large sums of money are too well spread around to be effective.
I also think that anyone who goes into politics from a wealthy background is hardly doing it for the money. So give the guy a break. He is obviously genuine and has a lot of people to please and a lot of problems to solve.
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#46 - Brownedov
News as well. I have noticed that, when a Newsnight item is made by a third party - Guardian Films especially - auntie blocks it "for copyright reasons". I suppose the usual suspects will have a pop about not being a license payer but actually, with BBC World in my cable package, I am probably giving auntie as much as they are every year.
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Don't think much of any of them. I'd be happy to vote and help get the miserable bunch we have now out, but who is there? Osborne I'm afraid is just a pallid Flashman, whilst DC is still very wet behind the ears; although not as immature as the Milipede. Surely a country which has millions of citizens can do better than this? I haven't even bothered to include the Lib Dems. If a man like Vince Cable was leading them, they would stand a chance as he is a serious politican. The others in that party, according to my observations are worthless. That leads to various smaller parties, which by the methods we use here in the UK restricts a voter's choice. We can only vote if there is a local candidate willing to be an MP in one's area. Thus, the ballot is a very restricting exercise, and as usual we the long-suffering public will be stuck with one load of inferior goods or the other.
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#55 - derekbarker
Recall parliament? And risk a motion of no confidence? Gordon has enough problems as it is without having to contend with democratic accountability.
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Some of these responses sounds very much like the Draper Rapid Rebuttal Unit at work.
We must be told.
Bob
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DB - is your period (...) key stuck, are you writing from a mobile or are you just trying a new version of political poetry?
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The global down-turn inaction from the USA
has put more presure on any future deal now! being successful, less likely.
The global down-turn virus has went airborne....it really will be a global melt-down in every sense of the words.
The Asian markets will find it very difficult to recover.......that in turn will bring more bad news for Europe and of course us.......
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#59 threnodio
Ditto
You'd think they could cut such stuff out of the streamed versions or a least put up a caption with the blocked length to be able to skip over it,
My cable package has BBC Prime as well as World - truly awful most of the time.
At least in Switzerland the locals are keen on watching movies in VO so all 3 language networks show most movies and even soaps in bi-canal.
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I have just watched the second video - DC's conversation with the single mother. If there is one thing I hate more than snobbery, it is "inverted snobbery" (and I speak as someone who is most definitely NOT well off financially). There seems to be a vulgar assumption in our society that anyone with a "posh" accent and a privileged background must be arrogant and "out of touch". Has it ever occurred to the liberal intelligentsia and chatterati, who seem to think they run our culture, that it is actually possible for someone with "a local accent" living on a council estate also to be arrogant and "out of touch"? Arrogance and ignorance is not a matter of accent, background or money, but a problem of human nature, which crosses all "classes" (dare I use the forbidden word).
IMO, this single mother is a typical example of inverted snobbery, and whether she was a Labour voter or not, this attitude is quite typical of our government - remember the nasty Labour campaign in Crewe and Nantwich!! But I suspect that there are not many Labour MPs who were brought up in the sort of environment this single mother apparently lives in. And isn't it utterly ridiculous that for years we heard Mr Blair (who, by the way, came from a privileged public school background) talking about Education, Education, Education, and yet when someone (such as David Cameron) has the sheer nerve to actually benefit from a good education, he is then condemned as "not understanding how ordinary people live"! It really is so puerile.
Frankly I am tired of all the psychological manipulation that goes on in our so-called democracy. For goodness sake, can't we just look at the issues and policies, instead of obsessing about people's backgrounds? In fact, isn't this judgmentalism about people's backgrounds just another form of intolerance and discrimination, no different from racism and sexism?
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Just watched Dispatches, just goes to prove that the Tory party from Cameron down is rotten to the core.
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63. Bradshad
..... is him thinking.
One . equals 1 minute of intense, piercing thought.
You should read his posts without the ...
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Totally sick and tired of the BBC political bias to Nu labour. Just watching a tory Minister again getting a savaging on a political interview on Newsnight and being utterly ridiculed for no reason at all when Labour ministers never ever get the same and did not last week. I am sick and tired of this political bias shown. Apparently the Tories are only 10 points ahead according to the femail BBC interviewer (who constantly inturrupted) so that speaks volumes to me when we all know that was one isolated and not very good poll but is repeated as if it was the best ever.
Totally Disgusted.
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Weve been rumbled
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why can't I post???
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@21 etonrifle
- Cameron will always "sound good", he is plausable until you scratch the surface and find there's very little there of actual sound policy -
posted at teatime tonight - striking in its lacking of a single policy from the labour conference last week.
in two days, policy announcements from the tories that ive heard so far:
* private room access for every patient in hospital
* an end to mixed sex wards
* council tax freeze for londoners
* veterans free travel for london
* free travel all over london for older people to be brought in for trains, buses, etc
* council tax freeze option for everyone in england who has a council who keeps a tight reign on spending
* taxpayers wont be bailing out failed banks
* bank of england would be in charge of restructuring failed banks
* pro active work from the FSA to prevent banks failing in the first place (ie, doing its job!)
i watched all the labour conference on tv, id struggle to list 5 policy announcements
personal jibes and coded digs at the opposition just wont cut it, the biggest crisis the world has faced in donkeys years, and brown simply told us about "who he is" and quoted ideal scenarios that everyone wants to see, listening to him, he sounded like alistair campbell was back working for them again.... he has been popping up at recent events tho, so maybe he is?
brown has a personal advisor to stop unsightly photographs of him appearing in the media... how much more superficial can you get?
try scratching browns vision and you dont find policies, youll be sucked into a vacuum, as your soundbite shows... straight out of the mouth of labour spin doctors!
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#68
Your naivety astounds me, the idea that you behold the flowery prose is laughable from your quick short responses.
Why are you so concerned with a couple of DC, takes? when there is clearly a mjor financial situation staring you right in the FACE.
Can I ask you! do you think your adding any weight to the conservative march for power,with your disadvantaged political knowledge?.
......................................................................
you've just been quangoed....slap slap slap
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I am sure I heard Nick Robinson say this morning on the Today Programme, that unlike Vince Cable the Tories did not complain in the past about government debt. Perhaps Nick, you might like to remember that the Conservative Party fought the 2005 election on the level of government debt. In fact an apology might be a good thing, old boy, though I know you are too conceited to go that far..
I find th bias of the BBC in favour of the present government astonishing. The Newsnight programme tonight was so biased as to be disgraceful. Michael Crick was so much on side when it came to Labour, that I, for one, decided that the BBC should be privatised and the licence fee abolished and the Company should fight its way on the open media market. And, I was 100% in favour of the BBC until the dreadful sell out over the Dr David Kelly affair.
I am tired of complaining about political bias, but will still go on complaining until the BBC returns to its original 100% unbiased position.
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Carrots@56
Warm and fluffy? No, I'm just a council employee who's already witnessed colleague redundancies, budget cuts and squeezes under a Tory leadership which put its councillors' allowances up but kept workers' pay down (heard of Gershon anyone?) - Council workers are lagging behind in pay already. Freezing Council tax means more of the same, and service reductions.
Cutting public spending and services means putting people out of work (remember the good old days of high unemployment - yes of course you do) and reducing everyone's standard of living.
On balance, I would say keeping tax levels around the current level, with some redistribution, would be reasonable. I'm reliably told that total taxation under Thatcher was higher than it is at the moment. Interesting, isn't it?
Trouble with the blog rebuttal thingie, it will make it easy for politicians and the media to dismiss the very interesting comments which appear here - some of which I hope, like mine, are genuine.
As for Nick's thinly disguised sycophancy (hoping to stay in a job if the Tories get in) on Panorama, if Cameron couldn't charm 5 people face to face, then he wouldn't be much of a politician. Did I hear him say he'd scrap regional government? Whoops.
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MinnieSouris #53
Did you actually listen to the proposal, or are you just deliberately spreading misinformation.
What was ACTUALLY said, was that the Tories in power would dramatically slash spending on government advertising and use of management consultatants (something which the National Audit Office has said is out of control under Gordon Brown).
They would then use that money in the following way. Any council that agrees to limit its council tax increase to 2.5% will then be given enough extra money in funding so that they receive the extra 2.5%, but don't actually have to charge the taxpayer any more.
So, funding increases, bills don't.
It might also interest you to know that current bank of England forecasts expect inflation to be back down to around 2% by mid 2010, so this would be an ABOVE inflation increase in funding.
Now then, complain about that if you can.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
39 carrots..
You clearly have an obsession with Andrew Marr and media bias. So I have watched these videos.
As far as Andrew Marr was concerned there was NO difference. In both cases he allowed the PM and Cameron to present their cases and allow the viewer to make a judgement. Proof of this is that you have made a judgement of Brown in your comment and I have made a judgement of Cameron who was defensive, aggressive all negativity and no answers. He lost the arguements put to him. So Marrs style works. Andrew Neil and Jeremy Paxman make judgements for us based on what they think their audience feels. They may be right in your case but not in others. Marrs style I think works for everyone. Don't watch if you don't like it.
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It's a sad fact that if he does become P.M. in 2010 David Cameron will have such an unholy mess to clear up in terms of both the World Credit Crisis and the present Government's massive borrowing and spending spree that his hands will be totally tied in terms of any electoral goodies. There is a case for keeping Gordon Brown in office for another 4 years so that people can understand how really useless he is with finances. They still don't seem to get it according to the polls. A good dose of reality might just do the trick!
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I thought The BBC's brief synopsis of The Conservative Party Conference on The main news last night was totally biased against The Opposition party. They dismissed George Osborne as having no solutions to the country's problems and ended by saying that The World Credit Crisis had swallowed up news of the Conference and that that was perhaps a good thing. In addition I thought the questioning of Emily was downright rude. It's high time that a bit of balance was brought into these reports. I tend to agree that any economic action taken after Gordon Brown has departed will be an exercise in steadying the ship rather than immediately setting it on a new course. George Osborne is not a magician and he isn't privy to the real underlying problems we have. They are well masked by the deliberate confusing and distortion of figures.
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I've just been watching the BBC news.......... now I don't normally ever write posts on this subject - but..........
..... I like to see interviewers go hard on the subject 'what are you going to do Mr Cameron'.
....but I would also like to see them hit Gordon equally hard on the subject of 'what have Labour been doing for 11 years'.
P.S. When pushed hard, Cameron comes out fighting and you can tell he is genuine. Thats makes him come across well. No wonder GB still comes across like a cyborg-drone. He has lots of cuddly New Labour interviews from the media which do him no favours.
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Osborne, in his conference speech, stressed that the main cause of the banking crisis was the bankers themselves ... hats off to him for that, he's gone up a teeny bit in my estimation.
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"Carrotts can't wait to hear your take on the "office of Budget Responsibility" Just what we need another QUANGO!
You couldn;t make it up"
I agree, do we really need another quango? And if you are so against quangos, how come you support a labour party that revels in wasting vast quantities of money on them?
At least this appears to be a quango who's objective is to hold the Government accountable, and work on the tax-payer's behalf, instead of the other way around under labour. So this quango should be aiming to get the government to cut back on other needless quangos. An anti-quango so to speak.
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It is so annoying when this web-site 'crashes' and your comment spirits away into thin air when you name Labour spin doctors.
Why is that - are the BBC still scared stiff after the Gilligan / Kelly affair and need to wait for a 'spin-doctor-authorised' moderators?
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I have tried 7 times to mention 'Derek Draper'........ this is the 8th attempt.
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On the Today programme this morning you set out the details of your latest vision when you told us about what the Conservatives would be doing and thinking in a year's time.
Please will you tell us what numbers will win the lottery this week and whether we can expect snow at Christmas.
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I watched the speech by Osborne yesterday. I was very pleasantly surprised by how much there was in it. I was pleasantly surprised that it is the Tories that are telling the banks, if you make a mess, YOU clear it up, don't come crying to the tax-payer for a hand-out.
Which party is the party of progressive taxation?
Which party is spending billions propping up billionaire bankers because they ignored the fundamentals for years and proudly, yet stupidly, claimed credit for an economy that was growing entirely on debt inflation?
Which party is offering real solutions based on sound money?
Labour currently has a "grind the workers into the ground" attitude to bail out those wreckless, greedy, incompetent and undeserving billionaires, and it is the Tories, who actually understand business, who have the experience of turning a recession (caused by the ERM, which labour supported) round and building a strong, dynamic economy based on productivity, that has the solutions.
They should not use one penny from the tax-payer to bail out those greedy billionaires. But then, labour IS the party of the undeserving rich elite, and the work-shy and the illegal immigrant.
People use your votes. Kill off this parasitic labour party.
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Attempt 11 to reply to Carrots at 70 just failed - but my comments keep disappearing into thin air when I press post.
There is something the software is programmed not to like........
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"Council workers are lagging behind in pay already. Freezing Council tax means more of the same, and service reductions. "
You have got to be kidding me. With the perks and earlier retirement into a protected pension?
A freeze in council tax needn't mean ANY cuts in services. All it means is that the existing services should be provided more efficiently. Something labour has never understood.
I would like to see large cuts in un-necessary services actually.
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Carrots 70
14 attempts to reply to you now. My comments vanish into thin air.
The rebuttal unit are more advanced than I thought.
I'll post a word search with the relevant phrases!
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There is a well known Labour spin doctor called [censored] - who has an on-line user name on this blog called [censored].
Morning I know you are watching New Labour 'blog [censored] unit'!
Has [censored] spin doctor got a job as a moderator, or is it more like when the Sun newspaper smuggles reporters into Heathrow - has New Labour employee infiltrated the moderators?
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53 MinnieSouris wrote:
"Let's just think what the consequences of this will be for the millions of people who work for local authorities, delivering vital services"
Firstly, let's get back to first principles: Local councils exist to provide services (vital and otherwise) not to provide employment.
There are many fine people working in local services and many work hard a difficult jobs.
There is also, however, a large amount of waste.
Among the 'vital' services you list are "recycling and carbon reduction initiatives". One can argue that most of the green/environmental agenda is an expensive nonsense.
We can then go on to tackle the profusion of 'compliance officers' and all manner of PC jobs and jobsworths.
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55. derekbarker wrote:
"Folks....we really are on the verge of economical disaster.....".
Why not add: The sky's falling! The sky's falling!
It's pretty bad, but let's not get carried away.
(Besides, Brown might try to use any excuse to delay a general election...)
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#91
I had a similar experience yesterday.
It's quite obvious from the delight on radio four that George Osbourne's comments on the economy were 'buried' by the news form the financial crisis exactly which side the BBC is batting for.
This was followed by a further five minustes of high fiving that the Brown 'story' was now beginning to resonate with voters...difficult times, man of experience, blah.
Littel attempt to conceal the whooping in the background that the great Ditherer has finally got through to his public. Might be different after eighteen more months of having their living standards trashed and the national debt soaring to IMF phone call inducing levels.
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67. redonthebed wrote:
"Just watched Dispatches, just goes to prove that the Tory party from Cameron down is rotten to the core."
Yeah? Well they're not alone!
Read comment @30 above.
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91. jonathan_cook
Do you mean this
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75. MinnieSouris wrote:
Dont worry. still plenty of public sector NON jobs going.
Non job of the week
And taxation is lower now than under Thatcher is it? Is your source Derek Draper by any chance.
Ill leave that one to Balhamu.
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"i watched all the labour conference on tv, id struggle to list 5 policy announcements"
After reviewing the BBC coverage of the labour conference, this is all I could find:
1) Free broadband (over 10 years) for chavs to arrange which house party to trash next on facebook. For this the Government retains the right to spy on all internet traffic and control access to any and all websites, blocking any that they deem inappropriate.
2) ID cards for kids as young as 14
3) Government indoctrination of infants AKA free nursery places for all 2 year olds (implemented over 10 years)
4) free prescriptions for people who have terminal cancer. (many of whom are too ill to work, are on benefits and get them free anyway)
Um, yup that is all. After 11 years of abject failure, raising hundreds of billions in extra taxes, this is the pathetic total of their new policy initiatives.
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78 dhwilkinson wrote:
"Marrs style I think works for everyone. Don't watch if you don't like it."
It wouldn't matter if the BBC wasn't funded by a tax (aka 'licence fee') that one is forced to pay just for the privilege of owning a television.
Furthermore, it would matter less if this was an isolated incident. But as the BBC themselves have admitted it is institutionally biased.
As one famous BBC person* said:
"The BBC is not impartial or neutral. It's a publicly-funded, urban organisation with an abnormally large number of young people, ethnic minorities and gay people. It has a liberal bias not so much a party-political bias. It is better expressed as a cultural liberal bias."
*Andrew Marr, actually.
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Purple @ 87
Well I don't usually agree with you about much but, on this banking bailout, you are dead right.
The size of the root problem, bad mortgages on overvalued real estate in the US, is no way near big enough to justify the panic. In my view, the bailout itself is an ill thought out panic measure and it's a very good thing that it's been rejected. I mean, c'mon ... the idea of the government buying assets off the banks, just because nobody else will, is absolutely ludicrous!
It's obvious that these troublesome "toxic" assets do have value ... that value being the future cash flow from mortgages being paid off or (where they default) from properties being seized and sold. Most banks have them written down already to around 20 cents in the dollar and that sounds on the prudent side. Even if it isn't, you can analyse and take a reasoned view of what the ultimate value might be. Half of the exposure is, in any case, with Freddie and Fannie.
So, there is no reason why the banks themselves can't step up and start behaving sensibly. They should be able to drop the paranoia, drop this laughable "we're too scared to lend to each other" business ... in due course, a liquid market should evolve for the distressed assets (there are loads of precedents for that) and, in the meantime, they can just hold them and take whatever coupon income comes their way. We have capital ratios that banks have to stick to and, if they're in compliance with all that, even after a writedown to 20 cents, what's the big problem?
There are potentially large profits to be made by people who buy this stuff very low ... that's the essence of risk / reward banking and that's what should be happening, yes?
The whole point of bankers is to manage risk, move money about and provide credit. That's what they're there for, right? It's very important and they get paid silly money for doing it. If it now proves that they are not up to the job, merely because one sector has gone nasty, then one of two things should happen ... either let things run their course (if you're a free marketeer) or, if you're a believer in government solutions, nationalise them.
At the present time, they are being ... cue Californian valley girl dripping with contempt type accent ... "Patheddic" ... and I find it hard to imagine a less deserving case for state support.
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75 MinnieSouris
Gosh you’ve just missed this one
But then a diversity managers position at the Audit Commission for £50,000 a year is bound to go quickly isnt it.
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96 Carrots
Yes - I did mean that. I was only trying to make linked joke about your original post at 70 and a certain contributor to this blog.
I tired to type 14 different variants of the same post and it just 'disappeared' into thin air when I pressed 'post comment' - although when I typed other comments in between attempts it got published 'awaiting moderation' and was then accepted by moderators!
I had a very, very similar experience (comments vanishing into thin air) when I tried to point out the other week that Alistair Campbell was back and how it was curious how Gordon Brown had suddenly been positioned in the press as the deal maker in the HBOS / Lloyds scenario.
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@75
"I'm just a council employee who's already witnessed colleague redundancies, budget cuts and squeezes under a Tory leadership which put its councillors' allowances up but kept workers' pay down (heard of Gershon anyone?) - Council workers are lagging behind in pay already. Freezing Council tax means more of the same, and service reductions" - Minnie
bearing what you posted, id be interested in your views on the following (which has happened in my area)
- local services taken out of local control by this labour government
- housing stock: council tenants invited to vote for or against keeping them under local council control, if they voted for local control the council got £27 million for repair work, if they voted for a "public/private partnership" the partnership got £43 million to repair the housing stock - people voted for the partnership as they all got new kitchens, heating, windows etc. council workers were training new staff for the partnership, but most have now been laid off, replaced by the people they trained!
- Parks and gardens: again taken out of local control, with staff laid off after training new young staff!
- council working off a two year old plan for road repairs, where a £5 kerb stone now costs £120 to replace, pot holes everywhere
- record amount of claims against the local council for injury due to disrepair of surfaces and pavements
- public transport squeezed as prices hit record levels and services fall
- council workers having their pay rises fall well below inflation for the past 10 years
- record increases in council tax bills
all this and more, designed to lead us into a regional assembly that no one wants to see.
no party is perfect, but 11 years of labour have left my local council in a right state.
do you think labour have done a good job during this time?
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Carrots @97,
I just love the ambition
"...to help local councils influence the EU at the highest level".
This is something that our entire supine government and FCO, led by the 'mighty miliband', are unable to do!
And all for just £32,000 per year plus London weighting. What a bargain.
I might apply for it myself: I'm sick of actually working for a living.
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"Folks....we really are on the verge of economical disaster......what Cameron says will not mean a jot......when you compare it to todays news''''
Really?
Could it be that the fat-cat elitists were bluffing?
"Pass the bail-out bill or the markets will collapse!!!"
Hmm, after intense pressure from their constituents, the congress voted against the bail-out, calling the market's bluff.
What happened? A medium sized drop and now the FTSE is recovering. It is currently UP.
There was no crash. A crash being a 10% one day fall.
Well look at the shape of the markets since 2000. There has been two 40% long term falls in the FTSE since then. The FTSE under the Tories showed a gradual continuous climb. Then under labour there are a couple of huge camel humps. Also known as BOOM AND BUST!
look it up on uk dot finance dot finance dot com, set the graph to FTSE time range to max and scale to Linear.
Do you think a 5 or 10% one day drop is going to make any difference to that graph?
This whole $700billion dollar bail out, was a scam. From the $700billion figure originally being literally plucked out of thin air, un-costed and literally made up on the spot to seem, quote: "a big enough number to frighten congress to act" (according to whitehouse sources), right through to the idea that there should be NO oversight, NO control, No judicial challenges to this bail out AT ALL once passed.
It was a huge scam, a heist on the taxpayer and the people did not fall for it. For one day only, the USA resembled a democracy and the PEOPLE spoke.
Now we have the political elite running round like headless chickens disparately trying to steal more money and create more fear for their masters.
Brown desperately supports the billionaire's bail out. He is NOT on the public's side. He is NOT interested in protecting or helping hard working families.
All he cares about is serving his elite masters in the elite banking families.
It was very welcoming to hear George Osborne say a firm NO to bank bailouts by the tax-payer.
We now know whose side the parties are on. Labour is on the side of the greedy elitists. The Tories are on the side of the tax-payer.
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@100, I completely agree with EVERY word you wrote sagamix. Nice one.
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#93 MaxSceptic
Look Max, the tories are running mates with the republicans.
Loose Osborne and Cameron need educated on the damage that capitalism and greed can cause.
I think the tories should give up on their conference and re-turn to parliament to be re-educated.
There is never a good time for a tory government....never....never....never
How can young Osborne promise a tax cut in council tax at this time???????
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99 maxsceptic
I watched segments of both videos carrots linked to and the only difference was that Cameron was 'acting' like he was being under attack from Marr. Marr was just sitting their quietly letting him speak. You would expect good acting from a man who can read a speach without using notes. An actor. So you either have to be gullible or want to believe its true. to beleive his Camerons acting. Cameron also spoke with out saying.
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Nick
Saw the program. I initially thought that you were going to ambush him with a room full of labour apologists but on balance I thought the content was fair and the participants genuine floating voters.
My question is when are you taking Gordon Brown to meet some real voters?
I won't hold my breath!
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So what Labour has some rich doners, not exactly in the same league as being able buy a place around Dave`s dinner table is it?
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Just as a matter of interest how much does Ashcroft pay you lot?
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I don't get the argument that you must have walked in my shoes to know how to fix my problems.
Firstly, they are your problems, not ours - we are all born with an opportunity and if you CHOOSE to have unprotected sex or CHOOSE to be violent or CHOOSE to live on a council estate, that is your call.
Some people are unfortunate and need support, many are there through their own doing.
Secondly, with this mentality, the following would also have to apply:
Only rape counsellors that have been raped themselves can help victims.
To become a policeman you must have been stabbed, kidnapped, a victim of burglary and any other crime.
To be a heart surgeon, you must wear a pace-maker.
Can't we just determine whether the politician is educated and qualified enough to do the job rather than ask that we place Council House fodder and pregnant teenagers in the House of Commons to make sure it is representative!
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db wrote:
How can young Osborne promise a tax cut in council tax at this time???????
If you'd seen the speech and read the reports regarding this small electoral perk in The Press you would have cottoned on to the fact that it is not being offered without strings. It is being envisaged as a possible carrot only to those Councils that make equal savings in areas of perceived wastage (as opposed to everyday necessary spending).
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#105
There was no crash...........(spiv)
1987....remember (tory government)
Have you looked into the amount of trouble Europe is in to under this global down-turn?
The last I checked the FTSE WAS DOWN 19.4%.......??????
Osborne does not even reach the standard of a novice.
Your way...way off the mark on how serious this down turn IS......typical tory..block head..
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It would appear that to qualify to be Prime Minister you have to have either swept the streets, worked down a mine or cleaned the sewers.
So on that basis Red Robbo, Arthur Scargill and all the other trade union barons who dragged this country down onto its knees would have been qualified to have been Prime Minister.
It is amazing how people so conveniently forget, when it suits them best.
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104 Max
Dont give up the day job just yet, its only a 12 month contract covering maternity leave.
If there is really anything to it (highly doubtful) by the time you have actually got the hang of dealing with the complexities of the EU, its time to leave.
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#107
the time for tory government is the time to cut the waste and profligacy of labour administrations hell bent on do-gooding social engineering programmes. That time is now. Free computers is not an economc policy to guide us through a credit crunch.
Hubris about experience does not equate to leadership. Arrogance about a fast disintegrating reputation for economic competence will not win over the Worcestershire ladies.
Endless stories about Gordon Brown's upbinging are putting us off our tea and toast. Who hasn't had a difficult life/lost their job/lost a parent/had a sick child/had a personal setback of unexppected proportions? People regard this kind of attention seeking about personal difficulties as either self indulgent or emotional blackmail. Neither will secure government.
Call an election.
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111. redonthebed
Lord Ashcroft to you.
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Oh dear Derek.
Its not a tax cut.
Its a 2.5 % tax rise. The difference is that instead of asking home owners to pay the extra money, the government would pay it.
The money needed by the government will come from slashing advertising and management consultant budgets.
Total cost to government if all councils do this is 500 million in the first year, 1 billion in the second year.
Funding for this is 230 million from advertising each year, and 270 in the first year from the consultancy budget, 770 in the second year.
So, more money for local councils, no increase in bills for tax payers, less money for advertisers and waffle-based consultants.
How can you complain about that?
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jonathan_cook
Had similar problems myself with getting things posted.
One thing I did manage to sort was that the 'and' sign (you know, shift 7 on the keyboard) seems to prevent things being posted. It made posting about Bradford and Bingley a bit tricky!
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#113
Yes, I knew that!
Its encouraging cuts in local services.
This is the prospective next chancellor
making off the cuff statements on taxation.
It would cost government around 2Bn to support that type of action.
Young Osborne has already tied himself in knots.
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114. derekbarker
Calm down Derek, the English will look after you.
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70 carrots.. Why are you reading a specialist PR Magazine?
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Rhino @ 112
Agreed. Let's just go on ability for choosing our MPs ... there'll be a whole lot fewer pontificating white middle class males if we do that, won't there?
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I should have said that the FTSE was 19.4 point down and of cousre 7% down from monday......correction
The market will fluctuate all day until closing time.
I would be surprised if the FTSE remained stable again today.
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108. dhwilkinson:
My point was about the BBC's institutional bias, not the specific interviews mentioned.
Do you dispute my point?
107 derekbarker wrote:
"I think the tories should give up on their conference and re-turn to parliament to be re-educated."
Derek, Derek, that's the sort of thing your chaps do in North Korea these days.
If you don't like them, don't vote for them.
Now - let's have that general election.
BTW - As far as I'm concerned any time is a good time for Council Tax cuts. (Though that is not Tory policy, which you will discover if you actually bother to investigate further than your prejudices seem to allow you).
110 and 111. redonthebed wrote:
"So what Labour has some rich doners, not exactly in the same league as being able buy a place around Dave's dinner table is it?"
Don't be lazy: check again. They are very much in the 'same league'.
Neither Ashcroft nor anybody else pays me a penny - but I am open to offers. Personally, I'd be happy to pay to bury Brown and his government (metaphorically speaking, of course).
How much is Derek Draper paying you? (Or are you a volunteer?).
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#119
O' dear Grawth.
Does the government just print that extra 2Bn.........get your thinking hat on wrath.
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#126
Max, are you saying Osborne never said he would freeze council tax for at least two years?? at a cost of 2Bn pound to the government per ann.....
Who will fund the tories now!that the spivs have been rumbled?
Max, an election will come in due course (2010)
There no way the public will trust the tories again.
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108 maxsceptic
Too much emphasise on youth to many good people being sacked for their age. I agree but the rest of his point is irrelevant. I didn't say he didn't talk rubbish sometimes. We all do that. This site is full of it most of the time. plenty of it from me.
Not paid by labour/Conservative or any party! Looking forward to putting that on the end of every post.
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Sceptic wrote:
BTW - As far as I'm concerned any time is a good time for Council Tax cuts. (Though that is not Tory policy, which you will discover if you actually bother to investigate further than your prejudices seem to allow you).
I made this very point to db earlier in this blog but he chose to ignore it. GO isn't suggesting service cuts. He is offering commensuarate funding for savings made by avoiding wasted expenditure. I wonder why db doesn't acknowledge this? Methinks he is scaremongering.
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125. derekbarker
So we have gone from Folks....we really are on the verge of economical disaster
To I would be surprised if the FTSE remained stable again today.
And all in 12 hours
Please spare us any more market analysis. my heart cant take it.
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See what I mean about the.....not to sure tories.
Cameron has backed down from his bank of England statement and now! backs the governments position on public ownership.
Why dont they just disband.
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Just seen a strong statesman like speech by David C ameron - cool calm collected stating they will work with Crash Gordon et al. re this grave financial situation
11.30 am 30th Sept.
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Why do newlabour apologists question the 2bn proposed by Osbourne for freezing council tax?
Yet they do not question the billion for computers, the billion for energy subsidies, the 100bn for Northern Rock, the 50bn for Bradford and Bingley, the 2.7bn tax bribe to win an election he lost... the list of Gordon brown's hand outs are legion... yet Osbourne proposes one tax cut and immediately up goes the shout 'unfunded'!!
Hypocrites. All of you.
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#131
Carrots......what...what....what
Your leader has just made a statement on the global down-turn, at conference.
are you in the DogZZZ camp on the down-turn, that its just a big con to grab more funds from the tax payers?
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@Maxsceptic
I can honestly say Until a couple of days ago I hadn`t heard of Derek Draper.
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130. misswaldorf
DB is in a state of panic, he knows that the Barnett Formula will be recalculated after the next election.
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Cameron has backed down from his bank of England statement and now! backs the governments position on public ownership.
So do you agree with his stance or do you think he is being silly? Should he be stubborn and stick with his original thoughts or should he revise his position in the light of current events?
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@114 "The last I checked the FTSE WAS DOWN 19.4%.......??????"
You are lying!!!
Where are you looking? the FTSE is currently up on the day. 9.12 (0.19%), Not a lot, but certainly NOT a crash.
Although if you look at a trace of the FTSE from 1984 - today, you do see a nice steady climb under the last 13 years of Tory government, but massive boom followed by multi-year bust under labour.
A crash OFFICIALLY is a one day drop of 10%. We have NOT seen that.
Where is the crash we were promised????
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#115
Precisely, who could argue that proper geezers like Oh I don't know....Bob Crowe are worth every penny of his nearly £1 million income. Complete with a picture of Jay Guevara on his wall and a dog called Fidel.
If there was an ounce of honor in people like him, Blair and Prescott (hippocrites all) then this government may have a modicum of respect from the voter. They make me sick
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The movie, By Dawn's Early Light, begins with a minor conflagration erupting into a global nuclear crisis. The bombers with their megadeath payloads are an opportunity to reflect. The newly sworn in President choses to act "decisively" over wiser council but, as the General aboard 'Looking Glass' says, "In war, there are no experts".
The gung-ho types and vested interests tend to ride over something as simple, cheap, and easy as mere calm. They look for "authoritative" solutions, such as more and more legislation, or they want people to vote for them, so appeal to "popularity". Really, it's just another ego problem. The problem is usually themselves but nobody wants to admit that.
Sean O'Grady reflects my earlier view that calming down and ignoring the attention bubble, and focusing on the future may be a better move. Both politicians and the media might try calming down and finding something else to talk about. It would make a pleasant change.
Welcome to tomorrow.
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"are you in the DogZZZ camp on the down-turn, that its just a big con to grab more funds from the tax payers? "
Yet again Derek totally misunderstands a post...
There clearly IS a global banking downturn.
However, the 700 billion dollar bail out bill was a scam and I claim that for the following reasons.
1. it was NOT costed at all. It was a figure literally pulled out of the air that had to be big enough to scare congress into supporting the bail-out without question. (according to the whitehouse) That is why the first draft of the bill required NO oversight of where the money went at all and NO possibility to challenge any aspect of it in court later. The whole 700 billion COULD have just gone into GW Bush's personal bank account on those terms. (Although clearly that is NOT where the money was intended to go)
2. The Federal reserve already lent an average of 188 billion dollars a day of EXTRA liquidity into the system last week alone, (according to reuters). That is 940 billion that made NO DIFFERENCE. this 700 billion was never going to fix anything.
3. There was an advert (overlooked by the doom mongering media) placed by the professors of the leading universities and retired bankers and other financial experts that stated clearly that the 700 billion bailout would NOT work at all. As one congressman said, "What is worse than an economic collapse? spending 700billion and still having an economic collapse" It was a flawed plan prepared by bankers for only one purpose. to work as a confidence trick.
So there you have it. It was a figure plucked out of thin air, not to be questioned or examined, put away somewhere that would have had NO oversight and made NO difference to the problem and the economic collapse would continue anyway, because the major flaw in the economic system is not even being addressed.
Once we address the inerrant systemic flaw in the global banking model, then global banking can be fixed.
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"Cameron has backed down from his bank of England statement and now! backs the governments position on public ownership."
Yesterday they were saying that public money, tax-payers money, would NOT be used to bail out failing banks.
How is that backing the government's position?
could you please clarify that for me?
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#133 - Brilliant. Haven't laughed so much since TAG Griffin said George Osborne should lead a Government of National Unity.
More please.
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#139
The FTSE had dropped 19.4 points (see post 125)
You've had 10 consecutive years of growth under labour (yes)
We had boom and bust every year under the tories.
The dow jones down 777.68 from monday
How many banks in europe have now entered into nationalisation because of the current down-turn
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I'm currently in the process of shipping some computer parts to an unemployed guy at my own personal expense. This gear doesn't cost much to people in work but for someone on low incomes it's a few multiples of their meagre disposable income.
A targetted investment to folks with little or nothing achieves much more than shaving a percentage point off tax. They can have something resembling a life than what might be, for some, just another instantly forgettable round of drinks among many.
Personally, I think, your ignorance and emotionalism is getting in the way of reality. Issues like this are very real and just because the Tories are kissing your ass doesn't make them go away. You might wanna think about that before you get a hangover.
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Would carrots and Dogzzz care to look at the FTSE now!
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@141,
For once I agree with Charles E Hardwidge.
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Oh I shall add to my list of reasons why I think that the 700 billion bail out was/is a scam.
4. We were told in hysterical terms by the elitists in politics, banking and the media (contrary to expert opinion as written by hundred's of financial and economic experts including the professor's from some of the most prestigious Universities in the world) We were warned in almost apocalyptic terms that if the unthinkable happens and congress failed to pass that bill, we would face an immediate crash of unthinkable proportions and then that we would see a depression lasting a decade. and what have we seen today?
The FTSE is stable, it dropped 2% at the open, then climbed into positive territory where it has remained all morning.
They tried to blackmail the Taxpayer into this uncosted bail-out of a few elitists using the fear of a collapse that has NOT happened. This was never a bail out of the economic system, it was too small for that.
The same people that used the fear of terrorism and WMD to strip the people of their privacy and liberties are now trying to use the fear of economic collapse to strip the people of their wealth.
It didn't work. The scaremongering was MORE lies.
The sheeple are waking up.
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re-146:
"Personally, I think, your ignorance and emotionalism is getting in the way of reality. Issues like this are very real and just because the Tories are kissing your ass doesn't make them go away. You might wanna think about that before you get a hangover."
You chose to single out just one item in his list and then emerge with an offensive comment like this. Congratulations you succeeded in winning the prize for being totally obnoxious. I thought better of you.
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I have one question for the lady from Birmingham; you chastise Mr Cameron because he has no 'experience' of being poor, like you and your peer group and that this somehow makes him a less able leader.
I would therefore like to hear the thoughts and ideas of you and your peer groups in solving the current global Economic crisis, the worry trend for Russian military expansion, reforms for the NHS, Schools, Military spending, and the EU etc etc.
I for one would rather be lead by educated millionaires than ASBO wielding school drop outs. Yes the second group may be a fairer representation of the UK, but it doesnt mean they should be in charge, I mean there are more patients than doctors in Mental hospitals, but you wouldn’t put the patients in charge.
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#146
And your living in the clouds has made you fail to put together a coherent thread on this post for over six months but it still doesn't stop you contributing...
So, ass kissing or no I'll go on providing the logical refuting of all newlabour apologists' arguments as they rarely make the slightest sense. They never provide the manner or method of delivery.
Even Larry Elliot, the Guardian's economist has admitted that George Osbourne's speech yesterday was more robust than anything offered up by newlabour in Manchester.
Newlabour are a busted flush without newideas on how to recover from the self inflicted wound of an over indebted economy. Spending more is not the answer. They want one last fix like a deranged adict.
Call an election.
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#143
Cameron made a speech at the tory party conference, this morning, he said that would would back the government position on Hbos and N. rock
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"The FTSE had dropped 19.4 points (see post 125)"
When? from where? I am looking at the FTSE now, it dropped 2% this morning then recovered. it is now in positive teretory, we have NOT had the crash. A crash being a 10% drop in one day. That has not happened. Today is a normal trading day.
"You've had 10 consecutive years of growth under labour (yes)"
Based entirely on a flawed banking model of increasing debt. NOT on increasing productivity or export growth. Now we are seeing the effect of that. The banks falling over due to banks doing what banks do. They lend money. they create debt. That is their SOLE function. So Gordon Brown unleashed the banks, ignored repeated warnings from many experts (including the tories) that the economy was built on debt and that would lead to problems later. GB just took credit for the growth in the economy that was based entirely on debt inflation and did nothing to fix the system that he had a hand in breaking.
"We had boom and bust every year under the tories."
Nonsense! GDP grew and fell, but overall was growing based on the fundamentals of a sound economy from 1992 onwards.
The FTSE grew at a steady pace from 1984 - 1998. Then under labour it started a boom and bust cycle. Up to a peak at 7000 in 2000, then falling from there to 3,287.00 in March 2003 before rising to 6,751.70 in Nov 2007 then falling back to 4818 mark today. Capital marketes have had 11 years of boom and bust!
"The dow jones down 777.68 from monday"
Yes, NOT a crash, down only 6.9% which less than the crash we were promised.
"How many banks in europe have now entered into nationalisation because of the current down-turn"
Several and due to the flaw in the system that Gordon Brown, George Bush and other political leaders chose to capitalise on, rather than fix.
The flaw in the banking system is that credit is created and lent into circulation (to individuals, businesses, other banks and governments) but the interest on that capital is NEVER lent into circulation. it is never created. that is not a problem, so long as banks lend more and more each year, above what is required to make repayments and the interest. But once the banks stop lending, then there is not enough money to pay the interest outstanding on credit.
And that is not even getting started on the Fractional reserve banking of FIAT currencies.
The political and financial elite (Bush, Brown, Bernanke, etc etc) have chosen to try to use the fear of this real, systemic economic trouble, to attempt bully and blackmail the people into using hard earned tax money to bail out the elite and that is WRONG!
The economic troubles are real, and caused by complicit political, media and banking elitists screwing the system. The economic troubles are real, but NOT as bad as the scaremongers predicted. The bail-out plan was a scam.
Fix the flaw in the banking system. It is like a large water tank that has sprung large leaks. The answer is NOT pour in more water, it is fix the leaks!
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@ 147
12:29PM Change: Up 17.41 (0.36%)
So? Where is this crash I was promised?
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@ 153 "Cameron made a speech at the tory party conference, this morning, he said that would would back the government position on Hbos and N. rock"
Derek, Do you have a link for that, if true, it is contradicting what they said yesterday. Either that or you have completely misinterpreted what Cameron has said. Which would not surprise me.
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#71 jimbrant
"why can't I post???"
Well that one came through, but if you're having trouble getting the Post Comment button to work, you're probably getting an XmlParseError error by incorrectly posting a "special" character like &, < or >.
See Errors near the end of my #75 on the New ways into blogs thread.
Good luck!
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151. Richard
I heartily endorse your comments
Let's hear it for common
sense
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Nick,
David Cameron comes across to most people as being polite, well educated, understanding and coherent. These qualities will only matter were he to be given the role of PM at the next election. Until then, people are either guessing or biased (for or against).
On the other hand, we have had a long time to get used to Brown and in particular we have seen his varied and many flaws. Is he entitled to another chance just because he is the guy with experience? Not Blooming likely.
All the best
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The Tories are simply trying to make themselves seem relevant in this crisis.
In reality, they can do very little except make encouraging noises and posture a bit.
Only those who currently exercise power, that is, Labour, can do anything at all and even their powers are quite limited if the people lose their nerves and start taking their money out of the banks and putting it under the bed.
This Banking Reform Act does need to pass quickly.
I have not read all the details but I do assume that the guarantees to savers will match the Irish i.e. 100% of deposits fully covered.
It is not unreasonable to suggest that nothing less will do now.
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The FTSE had a low of 3% not 2%
Look, we are in a serious...very serious down -turn, when was the last time banks across the USA and Europe have had to be nationalised.
I understand the point you make about taxpayers having to fund the cost of the rich bankers that created this mess.
There is no other way out of this major down turn, America must come up with the capital to calm the markets.
It is a world wide disaster, there has got to be better regulation introduced into the banking sector and hopefully an end to greedy bonus payments .
Japan has pumped Bn's into its markets over the last couple of days.
This government, is doing all it can to try and help this situation'
Look we wont agree on the tories ability to control finances.
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#79 misswaldorf
"There is a case for keeping Gordon Brown in office for another 4 years so that people can understand how really useless he is with finances."
Please don't give "Duff" Gordon more ideas - I'm sure his minions have long been working on how to declare a "national emergency" and so avoid the 2010 general election.
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#85 jonathan_cook
As none of your attempted posts are in moderation "purgatory", you may be having the same problems as jimbrant, in which case look at my #157 above.
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#157 Brownedov: Thanks for that. It must have been the Bradford AND Bingley that did it. Thanks also to Grawth, who I think pointed to this possibility earlier.
Unfortunately I lost two absolutely brilliant posts the proved conclusively that Osborne was a liability to his party, and that flamepatricia's understanding of basic physics is about on a par with her political nous. But the effects of the wine have now worn off, and I can't reconstruct them ......
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@161 stop panicking.
Banks are failing because they invented too much debt, too easily, and too quickly. It is their problem to solve.
Pumping more and more money into a system that has so many leaks in places that have not even been identified yet is NOT the answer.
Find and fix the leaks first.
The problem is a simple one. There is no longer enough FIAT money in circulation to pay the interest on the outstanding loans.
That is because banks lend money into circulation in the form of loans, but there is no mechanism for creating the interest, other than more and more loans. When the banks stop lending, they start collecting the tangible assets that secured the loans in the first place.
It has then cost the large CENTRAL banks nothing, because they can invent FIAT currency at the click of a mouse on a 9-to-1 fractional ratio. It is not backed by anything of value at all. The entire CENTRAL banking system is a MASSIVE FRAUD. It is a system designed at the outset to create inflationary debt bubbles that explode in order to transfer assets from the people to the banking elite. That is how the system works. You don't think that the banks invented a system to benefit the customers do you? bankers, kings, politicians. The world would be far better off without ANY of those parasites.
The global investment and high-street banks do not need our tax to bail them out.
They need to accurately identify their assets, then borrow enough from the central banks (who create it out of thin air) to stay afloat. If they cannot do that they must crash like any other business.
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1:28PM Change: Up 23.78 (0.49%)
WHERE IS THIS CRASH????
I was going to get some popcorn, stick my feet up and enjoy watching the bankers kill themselves.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The Bail out is a scam. Sure the banks are in trouble, but this greedy and unworkable bail-out is not the answer. It is the people in power looting the shop before they flee the scene!
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If I was an actor I would say I am resting at the moment. Bit short of the readies if I'm honest. Does anyone know how you get onto Draper's team? If you look at HYS it is clear that Draper is already recruiting.
I'm not politically affiliated, having voted for the majority NOTA party at the last two elections, so if Draper is logged on - I am open to offers.
I can rewrite history and misquote statistics with the best of them but, in all honesty, I think it will be tough to get on the team. There do seem to be some on this blog much better equipped for the role.
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2:19PM Change: Up 23.85 (0.49%)
Peston is a tease! There will be no crash today.
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Not Available in my area? Is there something I'm not allowed to see when viewing it from Macclesfield?
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I'm here now ... anyone want to ask me anything?
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116. At 10:32am on 30 Sep 2008, CarrotsneedaQUANGO2 @116,
I wasn't intending to actually do anything.....
Productivity and/or outcome is strictly prohibited in such roles.
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Carrots, I just saw this job for Gordon Brown:
Deputy Director required by [name removed] Arts, a vibrant arts centre run by and for people with mental distress. Strategy, fundraising, and supervision skills, and an ability to innovate are all essential.
This is something where Brown is experienced - at least so far as the mental distress bit goes.
It is, of course, from The Gruniad.
What maladies are encompassed in the phrase 'mental distress'? And how does one run and administer a publicly-funded charity whilst suffering from one of these maladies?
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redonthebed @136 wrote:
"I can honestly say Until a couple of days ago I hadn`t heard of Derek Draper."
Not very well informed the, eh?
What other political lacunae do you have?
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Now even the Dow is up!!! WHERE IS THE CRASH????
I don't get it! The President and the banking elite and the mainstream media PROMISED that is the bail out bill was rejected that a major crash would follow immediately.
THEY LIED! AGAIN!
Congress, keep voting NO! Make the bankers sort out their own mess.
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Can I respectfully ask what's happened to the comments for 'Regrets? Just the one.' Surely grandantidote hasn't blown up yet another thread by being too rude.
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I can't help noticing that Camoron, like Hague puts on a phony voice to talk to people he considers working class. The Cameron accent at PMQ's is pure Etonian but he lapses into Estuary English when he talks to people he perceives as being inferior. Hague is the same, Yorkshire to the working classes but Oxford for debates.
Ian Duncan-smith was useless but at least he seemed to be the same thing to all men.
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174. MaxSceptic
Quite right, take a year to settle in, dont rock the boat, thats the ticket. Youre hired
Deputy Director Brown can start Monday
2 vacancies filled.. what a team.
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Carrots,
what's going on ...
... with your posts?
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So must police receive a crime report/complaint for them to act on Cameron not wearing a seatbelt? Any volunteers.. ?
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178:
One of our best known actresses Thora Hird used to do the same. Remember her posh telephone voice. I must confess to doing the same with my friends from Bolton and The US. Just a dreadful habit that is difficult to break but nothing phoney about it.
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Why do so many sad Labour voters go on and on about Maggy Thatcher. November 28th in 1990 was that sad day when it all came to a end. We are getting on for 20 years without Maggy but still there are some who want to blame her for todays problems. The one we should be blaming is good old Gordon I'm the one Brown. He has been messing it up for the last 10 years and now he wants us all to let him screw it up for another five. I thought Scots were good with money but we get the only one who has holes in his deep pockets. Well enough is enough get him out send him back to Scotland and lets start this change we all need. Cameron is not in the same league as Thatcher but one day he could be up there along side her. Save your country and put X by a tory. Hey thats a good slogan, what you think Cameron.
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180. sagamix
No idea, sorry. must be the phone. ill keep them shorter.
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@183: some still want to blame her for good reason. Credit deregulation? Stock Market deregulation? All Thatcher projects. Much of what is going on now has its deepest roots in the 1980s. Not ll of it was bad by any means but we can't shy away from the downside.
As for Cameron. This is so transparently a facsimile of the Blair project: sympathetic film clips, the media schmoozing, the utter vapidity when it actually comes to policy.
By no means am I a Brown cheerleader (not a Labour one for that matter) bur right now all options are pretty much unpalatable: The Tories? Give me a break! Clegg dragging the LibDems into the already overcrowded right-of-centre morass being fought over by Gordon and Dave? Genius (as if)!
Tough times have the habit of strengthening a sitting PM's hand. Major discovered that in 1992 and bizarrely it may yet come to Gordon Brown's rescue. There are signs that iti is starting to happen as Cameron is struggling to prove himself anything other than a media-friendly lightweight with a dodgy economic record himself (when you consider where he was in 1992).
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I just don't trust Brown. EU referendum says it all. You may not like Maggy but she had more balls that that ones in charge now. Even when Brown had her round for tea she had more about her than him.
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Nick, can you confirm whether you would be willing to accept a job in Downing Street should the Tories return to power (and should David Cameron offer you a position)?
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