Prime ministerial performance?
We have just witnessed a prime ministerial address to the nation. Well, we would have done if David Cameron were actually prime minister. It was memorable not so much for the actions he proposed but the tone he struck.
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"We are all in this together, let's stick together and together we'll find a way through" he declared in a message targeted directly at people he described as "worried, confused and concerned". His pledge was not to repeat the political wrangling seen in America because "today was a day for safety, security and protection".
After a few days of failing to grasp how the national mood was changing, David Cameron sought to capture it. The consensus here (in what is, of course, a conference bubble) was that it was politically pitch-perfect. What, though, about the substance?
In reality, there is no chance of the extraordinary scenes in Congress being repeated here, whatever Mr Cameron said. Our system gives the prime minister much greater power to get his way than the president enjoys. There are, also, no elections here to frighten parliamentarians into vetoing proposed bail-outs.
The Treasury says that the Tory leader's specific proposals are either unnecessary or would have no impact on the immediate crisis:
• David Cameron promised to drop opposition to the Banking Bill which is being debated in the Commons next week. However, the chancellor believes that he already has all the powers to handle failing banks that he needs as the partial nationalisation of the Bradford & Bingley demonstrated. The Bill is a long-term replacement for emergency powers (granted to ministers after the run on Northern Rock) which run out in February.
• The Tory leader called on ministers to accelerate new legislation to protect savers' deposits beyond the £35,000 currently guaranteed, and to compensate savers in seven days, not months as now. The Treasury say that they support extending the guarantee but insist that the FSA already has the power to do so. It is considering the impact on the banks before doing so.
• Finally, the Conservatives are calling for a temporary suspension of what's called "marking to market" - a process whereby banks daily price their assets which, it's argued, is causing bank stocks to spiral downwards. This is an issue that Alistair Darling has discussed with other EU ministers because he believes it would help banks reconstruction. However, he believes that it would have "zero effect" on the current crisis if it were announced tomorrow.
The Conservatives have looked wrong-footed by this crisis - unsure whether to defend the financial markets or to criticise it, uncertain whether to condemn state intervention or to support it in the national interest, unclear whether this is a crisis of regulation or of Gordon Brown's making.
Opposition leaders know that, in times of crisis, they can offer only words and not actions. David Cameron used his words today with considerable skill.
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So, the Tories are dropping their opposition to sensible law and getting chummy with folks because it gives them an illusion of authority and caring? Maybe, I'm just being cynical but they could've done that with corporate governance and fair wages and, maybe, we wouldn't be in this mess.
The Tories and their CBI pals were up to their knecks in creating this crisis and I get no sense of accountability and self-sacrifice - no sense they as people fully get it. Will Mr Cameron apologise on behalf of his party and the CBI, or is this just more of the same chameleon like sociopathy?
When I see more respect from bosses and shareholders not sucking the marrow out of Britain, I'll take them more seriously. Words aren't enough for me to trust the Tories again. They had their chance and blew it. Until they kill the rotten heart of Thatcherism inside themselves their talk of change is just rhetoric.
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"unclear whether this is a crisis of regulation or of Gordon Brown's making."
Surely that's one and the same thing?
If it's a crisis of regulation then it's of Gordon Brown's making because he's been in charge of regulation for the last 11 years.
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Yes Charles you are cynical and obviously one of the clowns still supporting the incompetent Brown religously (either because you have always voted Labour or been brainwashed by the government spinning over the last 11 years), instead of listening to what is said by each political party impartially, or perhaps I am being a bit cynical !
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That's it Charles. Tell it like it is. Whenever the Maximum Leader comes up with his latest bit of lunacy all we get is reams of Fung Shui moonshine. But when the Tories recognise the dangers this incompetent government has got the UK economy into and offer to help or at least not rock the boat while this all gets sorted out then you're off blaming Margaret Thatcher. No pretentious gobbledy-gook when you've got something negative to say about the Tories. Crystal clear.
Maybe Cameron should just do what Labour did after the ERM debacle. In fact are still doing. Just jeer from the sidelines at how incompetent they are. All the time. After all, if it's good enough for Labour...
Damned if they do. Damned if they don't.
Catch you later Ghost Dog.
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Is it just me thats getting just a little tired of Nick Robinsons, oh so obvious, bias. Not too happy about Gordon but at least he gets a grilling. This bunch of shysters only ever get fawned over by Nick the Quick. That wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so bad.
I met our shadow chancellor not long ago and was impressed by his ability to look like a recently redundant estate agent - not someone I would trust with my own business let alone the economy.
If your going to fawn nick - fawn over them all. If your going to put the boot in -do it equally. This week is starting to look like the Political equivalent of hello magazine.
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I haven't watched Cameron's speech yet, but Nick is quite right about the way the Cons have given the impression of being well off the pace in recent days. Brown and Darling have been seen to act decisively to deal with problems as they have come up, and have so done a lot to dispel the 'dithering' charge that never had a lot of substance in it anyway. By contrast, the Cons have been rushing out statements of 'new' policy that to a large extent seem simply to duplicate what the government is already doing, or has already done, and in some cases to reverse positions previously taken (eg in respect of the nationalisation of the bank which cannot be named on here - my thanks again to Grawth and Brownedov for pointing that out).
If Nick's summary is accurate, it seems that Cameron has realised what has been happening.
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Is this the moment Nick's head is turned to the younger, more attractive (political) model?
How soon before the relationship with Gordon begins to unravel.
No honestly Gordon, it's not you, it's me.
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1 Chuck
Wow.. youve come out then.
Its nearly all over.
Remember:
To be calm is the highest achievement of the self.
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The vision of Gordon Brown in his bunker with his calculator trying to work out which Paul he can rob to pay which Peter would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious.
The appearance of the great treasury spin doctor or should we say 'novice' herself on TV this morning saying a lot which as always meant nothing would also be amusing at any other time.
At least David Cameron has captured the mood that Tories are much better at sorting out the mess than anyone.
But is Gordon listening or is he still trying to play politics with an ever worsening situation.
Or has he fortified the bunker so no one can get in or near him
Will it take a state of emergency to get him out.
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Cameron offers a new approach.
Brown scoffs that this is no time for a novice, and simply offers more of the same.
The need for change has never been more urgent.
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Is it what Cameron says now, as you identified on Panorama last night, or what he says in office that counts?
What was not covered last night, and I do think his heart is in the right place, is who is there to over-ride his leadership and his intent?
As a for instance apparently it was the palace that got Cameron his seat.
The palace probably don't want to see Scotland become independent even if the monarchy is left "in place".
Cameron was apparently holding "secret" talks with the SNP a few months back.
There is nothing wrong with that although I would stress if he started doing deals then do the English and Welsh get twitchy and then the Union falls apart anyway.
Who does he owe favours to and how solid are the ranks?
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The only real answer at this time is a governmnet of national unity. It should have been Gordon Brown who addressed the nation. It is an absolute disgrace that he has yet again gone into hiding.
He should have announced when he came back from his visit to America that the situation was very grave. It is now dire.
Gordon should announce his reshuffle before parliament resumes on monday. The cabinet is in total disarray and Darling must go. Gordon Brown is not prime minister he is chancellor and should return to that role.
At the end of the day we are still fighting at least two wars , neither which we can afford. We must withdraw from Iraq, and announce a timescale for Afghanistan, America will soon be bakrupt and the lkast thing people want when they are being thrown on the streets is for money to be on unwinnable wars. We are just so bankrupt.
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#1 Charles
Paragraphs two and three of your post. Replace "Tories" with "New Labour" and "Cameron" with "Blair", then read it again. Leave Thatcherism in there for both.
I think you are being a little naive if you hold on to the belief that one of these major policital parties is different from the other when it comes to courting the affections of the City and big business.
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I think it is somewhat unfair to say that David Cameron promised to drop opposition to the Banking Bill.
As he said in his speech, there was only one issue between Labour and the Convervatives on the bill, namely whether the Bank of England or Financial Services Authority should "pull the trigger" on a failing bank.
David Cameron said that, given the urgency of the position, the Conservatives would fall into line with Labour on that one point.
So Charles E Hardwidge is completely wrong to say that "the Tories are dropping their opposition to sensible law".
I also fail to understand how he can blame the Tories and the CBI for the present crisis. In case he hasn't noticed, the Tories have not been in government since 1997. If and to the extent that government is to blame, it is Gordon Brown's fault. Nor is the CBI sensibly identified with the failed banks.
Nick Robinson is right about Cameron's tone: it was most impressive and showed him to have the gravitas needed in a prime minister.
The present problems are mainly the result of events in the USA.
The particular banks have failed because they borrowed money for short periods to lend to others for long periods and now find that they are unable to re-borrow at viable rates. That is primarily the fault of the management of those banks.
The government - and Gordon Brown in particular - is responsible to the extent that they encouraged the view that there would never be another economic downturn (abolishing "boom and bust") and borrowed heavily themselves in the good times so that they are left strapped for cash and with little to offer now that things have turned sour.
But, as David Cameron rightly said, the issue today is to sort out the problem, not to launch an inquiry into who is to blame.
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So he goes on the stage at a conference with national coverage and he is not making a political statement. This guy is dangerous, and did you catch George's weird speech yesterday and those mistimed pauses for....(slightly worried they're not going to clap)...applause.
Of course they like the City, why don't they just say it? Maggie never hedged (get it?) her bets and just said it as it was. Didn't lke her, but couldn't help but respect her. This lot are just too, too canny by half. Did you know Cameron's Mum jailed Swampy?
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charles Hardwidge has got it spot on. This is high capitalism in crisis. and the Tories and their cronies are responsible for imposing this greed culture on us(We won't Thatcher's loadsamoney in a hurry!) on us. now they are trying to ship the blame onto Brown. For sure he has been at the helm for the last years, and yes, he should have done more to rein in the financial crooks. But that doesn't detract from the real issues facing the Western World...untethered Capitalism is failing. The one silver lining may be a more equitable, caring and sharing society for us all. ..and hopefully the final nail in the coffin for Thatcher's legacy. Perfect timing fot the Tory party conference one feels...despite the false smiles, you can sense them squirming.
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Dont we just know it that our Prime Minister has more power.
We have been paying for that over many years and I would not mind betting that Gordon Brown would love this crisis to continue for some time and why. Votes.
Bet you did'nt think about that one Nick, did you?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
What is important is - should the financial market (meaning us) plumb the depth quickly so we can think of growth sooner or have slow torture with the proposed US $700bn bail out going through in some form. Tories and the Labour both do not have a clue. Cameron is a jolly faced guy but with out any susbstance. Tories/Cameron look attractive by default. They should give credit where it is due and hail Gordon Brown as the saviour of Tories.
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I don't quite get this "he doesn't care he is a toffy Tory" nonsense, followed by a trip down Memory Lane to 1997.
It was 11 years ago, get over it. Judge them on their merits. Labour are where they are due to harping back to the past and people being fed up of 1997 being their "get out of jail free" card whenever an awkward question is asked.
Cameron is not a Thatcherite. Thatcherism served its purpose, did what it had to do, destroyed many and improved a lot.
However, she is no reason to not see Cameron as Cameron: 'Tory' and 'Labour' are just names now. New Labour came into being because Labour had to become more Tory - Cameron came about because Conservatism had to become more New Labour.
Judge each person on their merits. It was a good speech, did little for me, I wouldn't vote for either as they are both useless and if Vince Cable were leader of the Lib Dems he would be PM - he isn't, so the Monster Raving Loony Party get my vote!!
But hatred of Cameron for what happened in 1997 (#1) is just a bit mad. He is only a Tory because blue is his favourite colour!
Plus, Gordon Brown and Tony Blair were in opposition in 1997 - can't remember any marvels coming out of their mouth at the time.
When GB retires (or gets booted) he will get a red Ferrari and it will prove my point! Just names, just colours.
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@Greyrustyj
I know its hard to believe but not everybody who doesn`t share your point of view is either a clown or has been brainwashed, a typical negative Tory attack , why don`t you start trying to sell your policies, oh sorry I forgot you have none
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Excellent speech.
No big, headline grabbing, short term polices, just clear, concise words on how we can start to dig ourselves out of this mess.
Now, if Brown can meet Cameron half way, policies can be formed and implemented quickly and efficiently.
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No honestly Gordon, it's not you, it's me.
He'd have no trouble believing that. It's your fault. It's the yanks fault. It's the banks fault. It's Greenspans fault. It's all those irresponsible people's fault.
Too right it's not Gordon. He's only responsible for the good stuff.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#4
Mr U - you obviously have a problem with the British constitution.
The Labour Party hold a majority of the seats in the House of Commons at Parliament, as the result of the 2005 General Election.
By convention, the leader of the majority party in the House of Commons is Prime Minister (though our elected representatives are perfectly entitled to either hold a vote of no confidence in him or choose someone else entirely if they wished).
The Leader of the majority party is Gordon Brown (or our "maximum leader"). He is our democratically elected Prime Minister.
If you don't like it, try and hold a coup (maybe you could get Mark Thatcher to fund it for you?).
Yes - that sounds a lot more democratic!
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#1
and when will Gordon Brown apolofise for ramping up the national debt and presiding over and creating a reglatory system that allowed consumer credit to get completely out of control.
You've had your eleven years in charge and behaved like an adict at a party; careering around from one person to the next begging for another fix. You showed an immature lack of self control when at the tiller.
With power comes responsibility and newlabour behaved irresponsibly from the moment they stepped into 10 Downing Street and accepted a cheque form Bernie Ecclestone.
Bedazzled with power and influence and money they showed no sure touch but instead a wanton greed for more.
Call an election.
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Removing mark to market accounting will achieve exactly the opposite of what David Cameron thinks.
We are very fortunate that we have survived so long without a major banking crash. The heart of the matter is this: the high gearing of banks means that shareholders, when protected by limited liability, have a positive incentive to ask those running their banks to look for high risk. The shareholders know that in the event of failure they can walk away, so it is in their interest to look for high risk outcomes which maximise their payoff. To put it simply: if a bank owns 100m and owes the same amount, the net assets belonging to the shareholder are zero so it is worth their while to encourage those managing the banks on their behalf to go for broke.
We have limited options for avoiding this agency problem: remove limited liability and reenact mutualisation, insist on much higher equity participation to remove the risk incentives attaching to high gearing, or three selectively penalise high risk taking through taxes or by other means. Regulation that does not focus on this, or hides it by removing mark to market accounting will fail and we will go through the same sorry mess again and again.
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The youngs guns shoot themselfs twice
Osborne on tax cuts
Cameron on a complete change
Does anyone trust these tories?
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Did you know Cameron's Mum jailed Swampy?
She did? Fantastic. Is his mum standing for parliament?
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#6 jimbrant
B&B can be named, but you have to type B&B in the Your Comment box.
For once, I tend to agree with you that the BluLab Tories aren't making the most of their conference opportunity, but I can't see that "Duff" Gordon or his poodles are doing much sensible about it either.
The Irish and Benelux governments seem to be doing the necessary while our lot just dither. Pity we didn't join the Euro at the outset.
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spot on No.5. Robinson really should do better to mask his pro-Tory stance, given that his past involvement with the Conservatives is so well documented. A quick Google will reveal that:
"At Oxford he was President of the Oxford University Conservative Association.
In 1986, he spent a year as national chairman of the Young Conservatives; he does not state this in his own blog biography."
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#6
If Brown and Darling want to dispel the 'dithering' charge which wa perfectly reasonable after the bank failure then they need to act tough not talk tough.
Words at a conference are meaningless without action.
Buying computers willnot sort out the gravest banking crisis in a century; part of which is sefl inflicted form the lax regulatory system.
Get real, jimbrandt and act don't talk. but, of course, that's against your nature.
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15 brownforever
16 byronbj
one posting directly after another from seemingly different people, both referring to thatcher; are you Derek Draper in disguise starting on your bbc blog attack?
What relevant does Thatcher have? What have your beloved party been doing the last 11 years?
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Cameron proved to me today that he is not the material for a good leader.
He also accused America of political wrangle. It was not, it was democracy and at least the ELECTED representatives got a say in the decision making process unlike Britain and its dictatorial Prime Minster who is Judge and Jury
My business is suffering due to the contruction melt down but that is no excuse to allow the bully boys to ride rough shod over the whole country.
Another bail out will dissapear into the Wall Street black hole and prolong the agony, lets get it over with and start moving forward on a proper financial basis.
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Charles,
"The Tories and their CBI pals were up to their knecks in creating this crisis and I get no sense of accountability and self-sacrifice - no sense they as people fully get it. Will Mr Cameron apologise on behalf of his party and the CBI, or is this just more of the same chameleon like sociopathy?"
I see. So just to get this straight... Are you saying that the Conservative party caused the credit crunch? Taxed us to the edge of existence, over regulated everywhere but made a farce of the banking regulations, burdened the taxpayer with trillions of debt and left us today with a UK plc account balance of -11 billion. Really Charles? Really? 11 year in opposition and it's still there fault? Oh but of course I hear you cry it's all that Thatcher’s fault.
Please Charles, if you aren't going to argue sensibly then don't bother at all.
Oh and just for the record. The financial industry has bought untold wealth into this country in taxes and business creation, jobs etc - which was great when the going was good. Everybody helped themselves to some of it even you Charles. However now it's all gone pear shaped it's "those CBI" people
Strangely I've been around here long enough to remember when you used to cry impartiality and Zen.
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The address was just spin. DC is almost devoid of substance. How can the king of punch and judy politics suddenly transform himself into someone who will rise above the machinations of petty party politics.
The change has been bought on by recent polls showing people have more faith in the economic competence of Brown and Darling.
The only purpose of the intervention was a 2 minute slot on the lunchtime news.
Terrific media management that is all.
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#13 E_Murdstone
Absolutely spot on, but then #1 isn't far off the truth - a 1st for CEH?
Maybe a majority in England still have some faith in NuLab or BluLab Toryism, but another dose of it will probably break the union, as many English nats on the NR threads seem to want.
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#20
For me it's not so much the "Toffy Tory" argument. It's more he does not understand what life is like for most people.
Last night he said that for most people social class is irrelevant. That's ridiculous. Is he telling me that someone who grows up on an inner-city estate to parents in minimum wage, irregular employment has the same life chances as someone whose father is a barrister and sends him to Eton. Class still matters. The political class tries to pretend it doesn't, that is all. All research disproves this assertion - a clever child from a poor background is rapidly overtaken in the education system by their dim middle-class peers, and these advantages are exacerbated by their parent's better social networks. There is a large poverty penalty to people's chances of getting on.
He also portrayed the proposed Inheritance Tax reforms as helping the majority of people, when he knows full well that they only benefit people with assets exceeding £1.2 million. Die with £1 million worth of assets - gain from policy = £0. Die with £2 million+ worth of assets - gain from policy = £800,000. He's playing on people's misunderstanding of the inheritance tax system to benefit the wealthy. Very dishonest.
These are just two examples.
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Cameron is a Scottish name so how come the party of England likes him so much?
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#15 brownforever
Hello, newbie. Are you a Derek Draper clone?
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Interesting speech on the day that Thatcher was voted the best ever Tory by the people that stabbed her in the back, booted her out and stamped her out like a beetle. Are they still the stupid party?
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It is interesting that the single most important thing which government could do, Labour don't want to do, and the Conservatives do. Changing the requirement to mark-to-market for illiquid assets would have nipped this crisis in the bud if it was implemented at any point over the last year. Doing it now would allow a recovery finally.
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Whether you approve of Cameron or not, whether you take his speech at face value or as an attempt to gain some political advantage, you must see that the substance of the speech is correct.
The two parties need to sit down together and knock together a bunch of policies which will get through Parliament fast and start to make a real difference immediately.
It is all well and good us on here moaning about Tory this and Labour that, but ultimately, until the parties can find some agreement and get down to the business of saving our economy, things can only get worse!
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Hello Oldie Brownedov, just watching the Tory stuff makes me sing "Are you CBeebies in Disguise"....
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Well done Cameron and Osbourne yesterday.
Churchillian. Give people the truth.
Yes we are broke, in more ways than one.
Yes the government must act at once, and all of the parties must be seen to be acting TOGETHER to get EVERYONE onside.
Yes, the next couple of years are going to be difficult.
Most of us know that this is true, we neeed someone in politics to confirm it. Cameron and Osbourne has passed this test with flying colours.
I look forward to Cameron's speech tomorrow with confidence in GREAT Britain after the next election.
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The speach is a triumph of posturing and presentation which disguises a distinct lack of substance.
Cameron appears to be advocating free market enterprise whilst at the same time approving of bank nationalisations.
He can't have it both ways. Is he sliding into socialism by the back door too?
I suspect he's waiting desparately for the Washington bail out to take form .
Nice style, very presidential but lightweight - what the Tories used to call a Wet !
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36,
Whilst what you say is absolutely true. It doesn't change the fact that all the parties work that way.
Don't for a minute think that Brown's speech wasn't just as devoid of substance and cliches
As was Tony's
The million pound question is can David and Co step up to the plate and deliver when called upon. We can all see that Blair struggled but I believe he truly tried. Brown has so far failed spectacularly and I suspect Cameron will do alright given a chance.
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Am I right in saying that a number of you would have liked Gordon Brown to have addressed the Tory Conference with an invitation to discuss the economy with him? That doesn't sound likely to me.
The truth is, Cameron's speech identified that we don't want to act like the Americans; I think that's a given, on any front. Cameron also suggested that he is in support of what the Government are doing, and to say that this isn't about Party Politics. Perhaps he should have kept George Osbourne on his leash over the past few days/weeks.
It wasn't a speech that convinced me that he has got a clue what to do, he didn't look quite as baffled as George Bush, but he did look like a man with no where to go.
You may not like Gordon Brown, but if David Cameron wants to support our chirpy Scottish PM, perhaps one or two of you could find it in your hearts to offer an olive branch, or a few billion quid if you have it.
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WHERE IS GORDON ??
HAS ANYONE SEEN OUR PRIME MINISTER ??
Shades of the Queen having to be dragged out to give her 'Diana' statement live from Buckingham Palace...
Wonder if the Currant Bun will have a 'The country needs to hear from you !' headline tomorrow ?
On second thoughts, maybe not...
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#16 & (identical) #18 byronbj
Hello, another newbie. Are you a further reincarnation of Draper or did the BluLab wing of your party touch a nerve somewhere?
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#26
I'm not going to go over the whole 'ramping debt up' argument.
One indisputable fact - we pay exactly the same IN CASH TERMS (£30 billion) to service our national debt as we did in 1996/97. In real terms that is some 31% lower, allowing for inflation 1997-2007.
Another indisputable fact - Debt as a proportion of GDP is lower than it was in 1996/97, even allowing for PFI-debt as analysed by the IFS to work out which bits of it are actually debt and represent obligations that a future Government cannot escape from if it chose to. This excludes Northern Rock-related debt, but again the independent experts tell us this should result in extremely small losses to the taxpayer.
I'm afraid you are left in the slightly ridiculous position of claiming inflation and affordability do not matter in considering whether the size of our debt is affordable or not. Simple examples on other posts show why this is the case.
A different argument is whether the Government should have been reducing debt between 1997-2008.
This Government decided (and was backed at 3 successive elections to do this) to not reduce the debt, but instead invest in public services. The alternative view (the one that lost 3 successive elections) was to not invest in public services and reduce the debt instead.
I think the wheel has turned now and people want to reduce investment in public services, but to claim that the Government is irresponsible for doing what it was elected to do 1997-2008 is wrong. They never promised to reduce debt.
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Slippery spin or solid substance?; I think the latter.
Three simple proposals, of which at least two can be achieved in less than a week.
Maybe this will prompt Gordon to come out and bat for Britain rather than manoeuvre for his own place in the next test series.
I do hope so, because 'things can only get worse' unlike the famous 1997 promise.
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Cameron has got this spot on.
The only thing that is shocking, is that the Prime Minister himself has not come out and given an 'emergency statement' of a similar nature before.
The PM seems happy in his bunker, popping out every now and then - to deliver statements in response to his critics - Brown has now taken to following the spin doctors branding and on emerging from the bunker he informs us that he has just been 'decisive' about something.
Well done Cameron. That is the sort of steady hand, confidence building speech that the public have been needing to hear from a leader.
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You may not like Gordon Brown, but if David Cameron wants to support our chirpy Scottish PM, perhaps one or two of you could find it in your hearts to offer an olive branch, or a few billion quid if you have it.
------------------
Lets get this quite clear. Cameron is not supporting Brown. He is saying we need to get legislation in place quickly.
He agrees with the broad idea of some of the legislation but, on the details, he, and the Conservatives, have a few issues.
He, unlike Brown, sees the need to get this through and in place now. The details where the parties disagree can be fought over later.
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I'm feeling mischievous. Is it time for GB to "open the the tent" and ask Cable and Clegg to join the Cabinet?
Government of National Unity and all that?
Cable for Chancellor and Clegg for the Home Office. Darling for Foreign Secretary and Milliband for the sack!
Just trying to lighten the mood a bit. These are worrying times.
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The Conservatives have looked wrong-footed by this crisis - unsure whether to defend the financial markets or to criticise it, uncertain whether to condemn state intervention or to support it in the national interest, unclear whether this is a crisis of regulation or of Gordon Brown's making.
Mmmmhhh! Singing a different tune now are we?
Nick, for the first time in these last two years, may I draw your attention to the fact that Cameron is now saying the following:-
WORLD MONEY PROBLEMS
GLOBAL FINANCIAL TURBULANCE
WORLD FINANCIAL CRISES
GLOBAL FINANCIAL DIFFICULTIES
One wonders why all of a sudden this change in attitude AFTER MEETING GORDON BROWN!
Or has Cameron finally realised that sound-bites on their own do not solve National crises, let alone GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISES!
Come tomorrow, will I listen to what Cameron has to say? Naaa, I’ll wait to see what Nick has to say first.
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40
The whole blogsphere is being infected by draper clones. You can spot them a mile off.
Its quite amusing to see them blame the Conservatives for something that happened on Brown's watch. He had 11 yrs to so something about it but just fueled a debt ridden bubble that has spectacularly burst. There's only one persons fingerprints over this mess.. Gordon Brown's.
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#25 balhamu
"Mr U - you obviously have a problem with the British constitution."
So did NuLab according to Bliar & Brown (The B&B of British politics?) before '97 but when they got power they strangely forgot their pre-election promises.
But it's the public that's daft for having believed them in 2001 & 2005.
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Gosh a lot of new name popping up supporing brown - theres a surprise...
Anyway...
Nick
I remember reading a comment in an earlier blog entry.
They asked why you hadn't reported any Tory comments on the Labour conference - then asked if you would be reporting labour comments on the Tory conference.
True to form - you don't let the tories comment on labour; but here you quote labour comments on the tories.
I am glad the bias is so obvious, so noone can be taken in by it.
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#27 CaptainBob1
Hello, yet another NuLab newbie.
Did Cameron really touch a nerve (still can't get his speech to play) or is Draper a really busy bunny today?
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nr1bacc: Of course Nick Robinson is fawning come Tory Party conference time. He is, after all, ex-chairman of the Young Conservatives so we can hardly expect a balanced view!
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#31 MaverickMcP
Hello, NuLab newbie.
Didn't you read yesterday's rants about NR's NuLab bias or were you just too busy creating IDs, Mr Draper?
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A big welcome to the new people posting from Derek Drapers New Labour 'blog rebuttal unit'.
There only used to be 5 Labour bloggers on here until a couple of days ago- where has the budget come for the new ones?
Anyhow Mr Draper - where is old 'bunker boy'? Does he not feel the need to speak to the public and lead from the front during this economic crisis?
Is Brown busy being 'decisive' about which finger to chew and still practising the smiley persona so that we forget the image of him eating bogeys behind Blair at PM questions?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kwgTvM1DtQo
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18:
If blaming Margaret Thatcher for all our economic woes is now your only defence of a beleaguered Gordon Brown then you must be getting really desperate. How's about addressing the real import of this thread? I assume you thought DC was lying through his back teeth and delivered a poor speech. I prefer to follow Nick Robinson's take on it!
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#39 brownforever
"Cameron is a Scottish name so how come the party of England likes him so much?"
Yes, and "Duff" Gordon is a Scot, but how come the people of Scotland dislike him so much?
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#58
You are right, as I have said. A referendum on PR was promised, and we have not had it.
Doesn't change the fact (and PR wouldn't change the fact) that like-it-or-not Gordon Brown is our democratically elected Prime Minister, until the point he chooses to call an election (before May 2010), the Labour party chooses to oust him or Parliament passes a vote of no confidence.
Or until Mr U sorts himself out and gets his tanks rolling through the gates of No 10 Downing Street.
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Cripes
Every Brown supporter in the country must be on here today. Plus a few newly created names.
I smell the whiff of desperation.
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#44 brownforever
"just watching the Tory stuff makes me sing "Are you CBeebies in Disguise""
Probably best to ask a grown-up to change the channel for you, then.
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What a waste of effort from the Tories, the Government do not need their help to deal with this they are doing it. As for the tone of the speech just sheer posture as the Tories and their Hedge Fund Banker pals were up to their necks in creating this mess, there is not a shred of responsibility or accountability.
This speech was just more spin. Cameron has little or no substance. How can the Joker of the House of Commons suddenly change himself into someone who has gravitas and can rise above the hubris of petty party politics.
The apparent change has more to do with the recent polls showing people have more faith in the economic competence of Brown and Darling.
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pete hollywrote:
"I'm feeling mischievous. Is it time for GB to "open the the tent" and ask Cable and Clegg to join the Cabinet?
Government of National Unity and all that?
Cable for Chancellor and Clegg for the Home Office. Darling for Foreign Secretary and Milliband for the sack!
Just trying to lighten the mood a bit. These are worrying times".
Funny you should say that. I was just thinking the other day that it could be a very wise move indeed for David Cameron to give Vince Cable a seat in his Cabinet. Whenever I have heard him on Question Time or elsewhere he has in my opinion given a very logical, well reasoned observation or response in his approach to serious issues. He would make a formidable member of his team.
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Anyhow Mr Draper - where is old 'bunker boy'? Does he not feel the need to speak to the public and lead from the front during this economic crisis?
Gordon Brown has taken my advice. Given that Gordon's actions have left the UK uniquely naked in the path of the approaching financial ice-storm it's probably, on balance, better if Gordon Brown doesn't do anything.
He'll only make it worse.
Gordon. Don't just do something. Stand there.
Like I said, he looks to have taken my advice on board. Probably better if Osbourne and Vince Cable have a chat and then 'feed' Darling the right thing to do. Because for sure Brown and Darling and the rest of the crazy gang at Labour HQ haven't a clue.
They're still blaming the yanks for all. This. If it wasn't for the yanks we'd all still be happily borrowing more and more and driving up the price of houses to even more stratospheric levels. Damned yanks eh?
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#63
I used to lurk here rather than post. I suspect the same is true of others. Just because people do not share your view, does not make them a party stooge.
I don't know how many CCHQ posters there are, or how many there are from Millbank. I suspect more of the former - the Conservatives do appear to be far more technologically savvy than the Labour Party (and have far more money to pay people to spend their day on here posting pro-Tory anti-Brown propoganda).
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Nick - I feel that your biases are starting to show through more than ever. Your narrative was overtly critical and questioning throughout the Labour conference but this week it is starting to sound fawning towards Cameron, Osbourne et al.
Whilst I have my own political position, I don't have the job of making objective and critical assessment and imparting that to the public at large. However you do.
It is very clear that you 'like' David Cameron and George Osbourne from what you write and how you write it. This is above and beyond how you treat the government and particularly the PM and his ministers.
Although it is true that you are entitled to be critical of the party in power and that this is your role at the BBC nevertheless I believe that your present position is partisan and needs questioning.
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Still waiting for Brown to make any statement which actually looks as though he has an idea how to sort out this (arguably his) mess.
In New York he states words to the effect he supports the bailout "whatever it is" and now back home he will "do whatever it takes" to keep the economy going. What does this mean???? We need actio not useless statements which mean nothing.
Yet it is still the Tories being blamed for 11+ years of NuLab's debt ridden bubble.
Where is Brown's plan? With the UK just about bankrupt he simply doesn't have one.
We need NuLab and Borwn to stay in until 2010 so that the country never forget what they have done to us.
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#1 'bout time you changed your mantra man, before you bore the pants off your mat.
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#48 Burnserelli
Hello, newbie. Can't say I've ever heard "Duff" Gordon called chirpy before - quite the opposite in fact.
Does the word have a special meaning in your bailliwick or are you from another planet?
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You are right, as I have said. A referendum on PR was promised, and we have not had it.
Pah. Just another one for the list. We were promised prudent borrowing but we didn't get it. We were promised no more boom and bust. We were promised no housing bubble. We were promised a referendum on the Lisbon Constitution. We were promised a 10p lower tax rate. Actually we got that. For a while. I think we were promised Tony Blair would serve a full term.
I think we were also promised a referendum on entry to the Euro. A policy Labour would campaign in favour of 'when the time was right'.
To be honest we're long on promises and short on delivery with this government.
We have however enjoyed the mother of all borrowing binges and now it looks like the wheels have come off. But don't worry. It's all the yanks fault.
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balhamu wrote:
"to claim that the Government is irresponsible for doing what it was elected to do 1997-2008 is wrong. They never promised to reduce debt."
This statement is probably very true as it stands but since that time The General Public have not enjoyed access to the books and they had no idea of what might be in the pipeline as far as credit problems were concerned. In hindsight they might not have been so ready to give Gordon Brown carte blanche to mortgage us all up to the hilt and beyond it. We are now reaping the reward for financial imprudence.
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Annoyingly, every time I try and follow a link for Conservative policy (or recommendations of their policy groups) they are dead. I was trying to find out what the Conservatives think about PR/constitutional change (i.e. Ken Clarke's Policy Group "Trust in Politics") published in January 2008.
Is this indicative of flip-flopping (and deleting of documents that might show how they have changed their mind) or has there just been a radical restructure of their web-pages and the document still exists.
Maybe its similar to their 1984-style deleting of Boris's appearance at the 1st day of the Conference on their official summary e-mail?
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#52 mediamute
Hello, newbie.
Not sure I follow the batting metaphor but at least you don't seem to be a NuLab robot.
Are you part 1 of the BluLab response to Draper?
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"After a few days failing to grasp the mood"?
Evidence for this bizarre claim???
"The Conservatives have looked wrong-footed by this crisis"
Really?? What a strange thing to say, again - evidence??
This speech is clearly softening us up for some really major announcement. Kudos to Cameron for co-operating with this fag-end government whose fault it is that we are in this mess. He could easily have spent half an hour pointing out exactly where Brown has gone wrong.
Yet again Cameron looking far more effective than Brown, who is a laughing stock now frankly. "Blah blah stability blah blah well placed" Utter tosh.
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Two fish in a tank,
one turns to the other and says
How do you drive this thing?
One of my favourite jokes of old and perfectly sums up the efforts of the Labour party.
The two fish are, of course, Brown and Darling. They been driving this economy between them now for the last 11 years and are only now realising that they have no idea how to 'drive this thing'.
For the last 11 years, the road has been smooth and simply. Life has been good and Labour have been care free.
Suddenly we find ourselves in serious strife and, with no money in the kitty, Labour are dithering between ideas and look dazed and confused
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Remember 1998 and Notta-Novice-Brown - telling us this:
"At the root of these problems was a destabilising lack of transparency in economic policy-making right across key economic and financial indicators which in turn led to confusion and undermined market confidence."
"This was compounded by weak financial supervision, poor corporate governance, and ineffective prudential regulation, which has led some to raise questions about the speed and desirability of capital liberalisation."
"Borrowing was in many cases used to finance investment in economically unsound projects and governance in the corporate and financial sectors was often weak.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the_economy/183557.stm
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Strange!
I found Nicks report quite critical. Basically saying there was little substance or relevance in Cameron's speech.
Isn't it amazing how some folk can find bias everywhere. What sad cynical lives they must lead.
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I belly laughed my way through #24. Especially the part that said "Gordon Brown is our democratically elected prime minister".
Wrong
He is the leader of the democratically elected party that the majority of the country did not vote for but who still get a chance to govern.
Do I have a problem with the British constitution?
Everybody should have a problem with the British constitution.
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73 wrote:
"It is very clear that you 'like' David Cameron and George Osbourne from what you write and how you write it. This is above and beyond how you treat the government and particularly the PM and his ministers."
This is not rocket science. Gordon Brown and many of his team have traits which are are dislikeable to many of us not just Nick Robinson. Arrogance, bending of the truth, refusal to accept blame, condescension, blaming the tools and not the workman and passing the buck are just a few of the characteristics many people find most distasteful.
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Come on Nick, this piece is explicitly biased !!
I can understand that as a citizen you have your own political beliefs and I respect that, but when you report DO make an effort to present some kind of a balanced view.
I mean, am I the only one who sees "Dave" jumping on the 'I'm serious because there are things to be serious about' bandwagon that Brown put forward last week?? Before that it was the 'Tony the communicator' one! The man forms party policy based on what is working (or not) for Labour. Is this good enough to vote them in government? That is the central question.
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#77
When's your coup happening?
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balhamu wrote:
"to claim that the Government is irresponsible for doing what it was elected to do 1997-2008 is wrong. They never promised to reduce debt."
------------
But they did promise to:
"We will ensure that - over the economic cycle - public debt as a proportion of national income is at a stable and prudent level."
Not so stable and not so prudent now...
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First reply was to Nick's article, but cannot, having read the comments,. let hem go uinchallenged.
To all those in the bunker still somehow, incomprehensibly, supporting Brown:
Brown is largely to blame for the mess we are in.
He said in his 1997 budget speech "I will not let house prices get out of control".
0/10 Gordon. We have seen an unprecedented bubble of debt which he did nothing to stop. He has overspent year after year, he has ruined private sector pensions, shifted so much stuff off balance sheet with odgy PFI and 800bn of public sector pension liabilities (but they can still retire at 60!!!) that we have debt of 90% of GDP. He has taxed us enormously yet he has managed to come to the end of a very long period of growth with precisely nothing to show for it. We have one of the most complicated and inefficient tax systems in the world, and more credit card debt than the rest of Europe combined. On his watch banks have gone collectively mad, lending far too much money to people with little hope of paying it back, fuelling the biggest bubble since the South Sea.
He has been an unmitigated disaster, and we are in it up to our necks thanks to him.
I have some doubts about Cameron, but none about Brown. He is truly awful he must go - and please God let it be soon. How anyone can still think he is any use to anyone is beyond me.
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83. jonathan_cook
ROFL
Now thats cracking research.
Nice work.
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This speech is clearly softening us up for some really major announcement. Kudos to Cameron for co-operating with this fag-end government
Could be. Government of national unity. Or an attempt to tie in all the partys to some doomed-to-fail madcap scheme of Gordon's devising so that when it inevitably goes toes-up like his economy the Labour drones can give it 'The Tory's supported it too'.
You'd think the Iraq war briefing of IDS by Tony Blair which convinced IDS to go along with George and Tony's war would show you the thanks you can expect for co-operating with this Labour government.
But no doubt Cameron et al will take Labour's plea at face value. No doubt too their support for whatever massive tax hikes, massive budget deficits, Martial law, devaluation, confiscation of assets, nationalising of HBoS/RBS/LLoyds/Barclays, or whatever else Gordon has got cooked up will be thrown back in their face at the appropriate time.
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I've been saying the same thing in almost every other post for the past year. Folks just need to understand the flow of time, illusion, and the self. Beyond that, one makes it up as one goes along.
There's been a lot of comment in here that debases ideas and sentiments by making everything seem equivalent, and enough lies and negative nudges to float a battleship. Funny how you don't mention that.
I'm generally not bothered by the bail-out not happening or Tory posturing. It's all a big scam to reward failure and elbow their way to the top of the pile. Folks can see corporate welfare and Thatcherism is blown. We're into "told you so" territory.
Be still.
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88. balhamu.
Excellent news
I hope hes given the government the statutory 6 days notice under The Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005
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# 11
If Dave has been holding 'secret' talks with the SNP, then I sincerely hope that Salmond has told him to take a running jump.
The native Scots must know that the Tory 'elite' consider them to be 'Ghillie Jockos' and will treat them accordingly, i.e. badly.
All Dave as PM can do is concede graciously when the Scots decide that full independence is the path forward for Scotland.
England must get its own independence back and we English do NOT need Dave and his motley crew standing in the way.
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#85
He is democratically elected in the same way ALL OTHER PMs IN OUR HISTORY were democratically elected.
When we elect the next Government, the only people voting for David Cameron will be those who live in his Witney constituency, IN THE SAME WAY.
Are the Conservatives proposing to change this?
Enjoy your belly-laughing.
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#89
So, what is a "stable and prudent" level of debt?
Economists agree that the 40% GDP ceiling is artificial.
And why has it apparently shrunk a lot since 1997?
In theory, investment in education and health and infrastructure increases the long-term growth rate of the economy (the neo-classical endogenous growth theory beloved of GB in his CofE days, and now taken up by Gideon and his pals).
There is a strong argument that not investing (and paying back debt) would have decreased the long-term growth rate.
Is that what 'stable and prudent' means?
Besides, the UK electorate voted for this approach to the public finances and the paying back of debt.
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#55 peteholly
He could certainly do a lot worse and probably will, but I can't see it being "Duff" Gordon's style.
For a start, Cable & Clegg would insist on dusting off NuLab's '97 manifesto and implementing the promises on Westmidden PDQ. As that would involve a referendum - something The Supreme Leader seems to view in the same vein that Michael Howard greet daylight - it doesn't sound likely.
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The Orwellian nightmare of a ministry of information (Derek Draper) posting pro-government messages in the face of imminent defeat seems to have come true.
They seem to have started on sky the other day, and they've now moved onto the bbc following their success attacking the sky blogs and have-your-say pages.
What's next, Derek? I'm assuming that Brown's next step will be to introduce emergency legislation in this crisis to avoid any future election.
What used to be a relatively representative set of postings from real people has descended into a spammed forum where you need to physically try and pick out the draper clones from the real people in order to trace the true threads.
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WHERE IS THE CRASH???
Peston is a tease. He promised a major crash and yet the FTSE is UP, the Dow Jones Industrial Average is UP.
Bush, Brown, Bernanke, Paulson, et al ALL claimed that if the bail-out bill failed, there would be an immediate crash! All the mainstream media, the Washington DC Elite, the Wall street elite all of them threatened congress and the nation with an immediate catastrophic collapse if the bail-out failed to pass.
So..... where the hell is it?
There was over 900 billion dollars of new liquidity injected into the banking system by the Federal Reserve last week alone (according to Reuters), so this 700 billion bail-out would never have made any difference. The 700billion figure was plucked entirely out of thin air. It was a SCAM people.
Not fair! I was looking forward to some bankers jumping out of tall buildings today.
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96. balhamu
You are of course correct... technically.
However, you must accept that this is not really how people vote.
Most do not have a clue who their MP is, let alone what he stands for.
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There is a strong argument that not investing (and paying back debt) would have decreased the long-term growth rate.
Ahhh. That irregular Labour verb again.
I borrow and squander
You borrow and squander
He/She borrows and squanders
We borrow and squander
They borrow and squander
Labour invests.
It's almost as if you're saying that if we hadn't borrowed 3% of GDP every year for the last six or eight years then our GDP wouldn't have gone up by an average of 2.5%.
Actually, when you put it like that. Borrowing and squandering 3% of GDP does rather up your chances of your GDP increasing by, say, 3%.
So what we have here is an admission that if Gordon Brown hadn't borrowed and squandered all this money then we'd have had a recession for the past six years. Blimey. I wonder how much he'll have to borrow to repeat that trick this year. 5% of GDP. 6%? Any advance on 6%? Will 6% be enough?
Not long to wait to find out.
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#57 megapoliticajunkie
Quite so - I was just trying to act in the common weal by smoking some of them out.
I certainly agree that nobody in UK politics but "Duff" Gordon deserves to carry the can for this. Even the hapless Capt. Darling gets a little of my sympathy, if only for having to work with a boss like Brown.
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Problem with Gordon Brown is not that he is a novice - he has had 11 years experience to get the economy into this shape, it is that nobody is interested in what he has to say.
He is a "No Voice"
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One thing Cameron did do was to latch immediately onto the 100% deposit guarantee issue. After reading Robert Peston's blog today, and in the light of HBOS share price instability one would not think de-mutualised banks entirely safe from a run. Cameron and astutely positioned himself on this point, in the gap left by government inaction.
Interesting times..
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Cameron's party have nothing to say and so they're pretending to be grown-up by their talk of working with the Govt.
Wolves in sheeps' clothes, don't let them poison the country.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Cameron might be able to deliver his words with skill - most articulate people can if they practice but I certainly don't trust Osborne to do anything useful to get us out of the current mess which will extend a fair bit after the next election.
Let's face it, Brown is learning lessons far too late. He must be held accountable for some of the present situation but he's done nothing except let his chancellor kick shareholders in the teeth.
But I really don't trust the Tories. I think of the messes that madwoman Thatcher got us into and don't want to see that happen to people again.
Words have not remedied the markets nor are they likely to. They won't remedy the impending doom of the planet either.
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#61 howzhowie54
Hello NuLab newbie. The BluLabs must really have touched a nerve with Mr Draper today.
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Carrots @ 91 (for example) ...
When your thoughts appear, they are often made up almost entirely of empty space.
Why is that?
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I'm much more concerned about the "substance" of what Gordon Brown is going to NOW.
The next General election is well over a year away, and I am much more concerned about the current governments actions than Davice Cameron and the Conservative Party.
Given the current state of things, the failed tax and waste policies of the "era of irresponsibility" are clearly unsustainable - so what now ? Gordon Brown has to change approach and direction but how ? What is exactly this vision he wishes to set out ? What exactly Gordon Browns "substance" ?
I am looking for much more than givng free computers to some people, most of which will probably be used for downloading porn or sold on ebay shortly afterwards.
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getrid @ 99
On the contrary, this blog is full to overflowing with hardline BTP supporters ... others are so few and far between that, rather like intelligent policemen, they are almost celebrities.
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Do you think Nick Robinson actually reads these posts or indeed has the time to?
I don't.
He does what all journalists do, he sparks the debate by saying something vaguely contentious or controversial and then just lights the touchpaper and retires. What sport!
Gotcha!
Ah, yes but some eminent politicians MIGHT just be reading them and catching the mood of at least a small proportion of the general public.
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I've been posting here from the start and will say this used to be an informative, mature, and broad minded blog until the Tory attack dogs arrived. That a few more folks have developed some confidence and feel attracted to espousing a more constructive and relevant style of comment doesn't mean they're clones or have been paid off. But, you know that.
I've been thinking that Labour need to develop more confidence and get out more, and the party conference and more prominent online presence gets behind that. This change is entirely natural and in tune with circumstances. I don't doubt this is, at least, in part down to the Prime Minister's display of skillful leadership.
As for those folks complaining about Nick's bias towards Labour, a lesser man would've been wrenching their arms off their chair at his headline chasing and some of the bandwagon comments in here. I'm more disappointed that Nick isn't posting more photos of Dear Leader. Still, it makes the ones that do appear more special.
I'll just sit here and glow warmly. :-)
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#66 balhamu
"Doesn't change the fact (and PR wouldn't change the fact) that like-it-or-not Gordon Brown is our democratically elected Prime Minister, until the point he chooses to call an election (before May 2010), the Labour party chooses to oust him or Parliament passes a vote of no confidence."
Agreed except for the word democratically. The peoples of Great Britain have never been consulted on the polity they desire, and until they are the odd vote under the 1872 plurality voting system doesn't make for democracy.
Not that the BluLab Tories would be any different, of course.
I'm old enough to remember loose talk about coups in the '70s, but don't think it's likely this time. While the NuLab Tories seem to be making themselves unelectable for a generation, why should the BluLab ones take unnecessary risks?
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106. rdutton
Hi Derek
This is getting hilarious
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# 96
"He is democratically elected in the same way ALL OTHER PMs IN OUR HISTORY were democratically elected.
When we elect the next Government, the only people voting for David Cameron will be those who live in his Witney constituency, IN THE SAME WAY."
This is only partly the point.
We all understand how first-past-the-post works.
What sticks in the craw is McCavity Brown acting as if he WAS "democratically elected". We didn't even get a chance to vote in a general election knowing GB was the party leader, as GB chickened out of an election a year ago (wonder if he regrets that now...).
And that's why I'm praying for a hung Parliament with a sizeable Liberal democrat balance of power at the the next Election, as the only chance for genuine constitutional / electoral reform.
A Cameron / Clegg / Cable / Osborne / Harvey / Grieve coalition cabinet might be a good thing. Certainly better than the current shower - who'd want a cabinet including Jackie Smith, Harman, Balls, Millibands I and II if there was anyone better?
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106 rdutton
Brown's party have nothing to say and so they're pretending to be grown-up by their talk of working with the US Govt.
Wolves in sheeps' clothes, don't let them poison the country.
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97. At 3:42pm on 30 Sep 2008, balhamu wrote:
So, what is a "stable and prudent" level of debt?
--------------------
Prudent, to me at least, means not pushing the country further and further into debt whilst times are good leaving little or no money for when times turn bad.
Prudent means a level of debt that is not left to spiral out of control if things go bad.
Prudent means manageable.
Prudent does not mean that, when the economy is desperate for an injection of cash, the Government is left with only one option, to borrow more!
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Chuck E Hogwash @1,
We've known all along - for months now - that your impartial, detached, zen-like-calm, gnomic utterances were just a front for unthinking support of Brown combined with pathological hatred for the Conservatives.
Let go.
Be yourself.
Be Happy.
Why not enjoy some procreation and travel?
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#67 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
"I smell the whiff of desperation."
Got it in one, I suspect.
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Has David Cameron forgotten that the problems with the old building societies can be traced to Maggie Thatcher's encouragement for them to demutualise so that they could go to other sources of money. Did I hear that not one of the societies which chose to follow this suggestion have survived the current crisis. Does this say something.
The Conservatives have been the primary party to oppose controls on financial institiutions which has allowed such large risks to be taken.
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#99
I would agree with you if you said "representative of middle-class right wingers who long for those halcyon days of Thatcher and Major". Don't forget that this Government one 2 landslide victories in 1997 and 2001, and one convincing victory in 2005. That suggest to me that more left-wing input (and wanting to look at objective facts rather than ideological screeching) would make the blog more balanced.
Maybe the BBC could help by posting IP addresses of all posters (if this is legal under Data Protection, and if this technical fix would flush out multiple accounts)? Though whether the 'representative people' of NR blogs past you have such fond memories of would think this a good idea or not is one for debate, as it could expose some of them.
#101
But isn't it the job of the BBC and others to be an independent arbiter of facts, and allow people to make informed decisions.
It's a bit defeatist to say "Well, people like Mr U are wrong when they say the debt has ballooned, but it is believable to a non-expert. We can't do anything about this". Though, exposing the flaws in what Mr U and others who are disingenuous say about the debt is like shouting at a brick wall, so I see where you are coming from.
#102
We live in a democracy. People rejected your view at several elections, and voted for an increase in investment and static debt. Live with it.
You will have the chance from 2010 for policies that would decrease the long-term growth of the economy and the quality of public services to be implemented.
The last Government borrowed a cumulative total of £320 billion to pay for deficits on their current budget. They paid this back by selling off a vast chunk of the state's assets at a discount. How much did this cost us? Who got the money?
This Government balanced the books, borrowing only to invest to improve public services and raise the long-term growth rate.
Currently, the economy is slowing down, borrowing will rise. Unless you think the Government should operate a surplus in every year regardless of economic circumstances. Interesting, if disasterous, fiscal policy.
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#69 bzriddell
Afternoon again, Mr Draper
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Folks could also use them to get an education or start a business, if you'd just prise open your closed and negative Tory mind for a moment.
The Tory spirit has too much yin,and is prone to talking up boom and individuality, and nursing a hardcore of fear and resentment.
Your stock is overpriced, dear. Let go. SELL.
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Nick, on a first-time comparison, your analysis of Gordon Brown's conference speech looks much less sympathetically reviewed than David Cameron's.
In summary, your headline messages seemed to go...
...nothing about speech but, instead, a supposition that the "novice" statement was Labour Party in-fighting (Brown)
..."nothing in speech" but "skilfully spoken" and "prime ministerial"
In short, no analysis of either speech, but a speculative aside on one and an admiring puff about the other. A good insight into the "...eye of the beholder". Not much use to the reader.
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I know this guy, he's not a friend but I know him, and he's pretty lucky. He's got an ultra secure job for life (and I mean for life, not just till he's 65) that pays him around 100 thousand pounds per annum. Indexed linked too, can you believe that!, so he doesn't have to worry too much about inflation.
Anyway, thing is this guy has borrowed money from time to time over the last few years and his total debt is now running in the range 40 to 50 grand.
So, people ...
Do you think he is obviously heading for bankruptcy?
Or do you think his debt seems reasonably manageable, given his rather fortunate circumstances?
If you promise to think and reply seriously, you have my permission to throw in a little joke about how the guy obviously works in the feather bedded pubic sector.
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This is pretty routine stuff for most folks in the entertainment industry, like television and games. You have your mainline strategy, and can cherry pick stuff for ideas, or modify course due to sentiment, but beyond that nobody has a special place or lock on what you do. Same as anything, really.
I think, a lot of the froth around here is folks just getting dazzled by the lights and having underdeveloped social and communication skills. That's created a big negative attention bubble but once folks begin to develop a clue things can improve. More maturity will help and make overall contributions more valuable.
Some Zen masters comment that Zen is about seizing life or seizing death. Throwing yourself wholeheartedly into something or retiring to the stillness of the mountains has made for a few notable stories. I suppose, the modern spin is the American phrase, "Lead, follow, or get the hell out of my way." Reality has a sense of humour.
Of course, the real prize is awareness...
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#125
and here is the Gordon Brown solution to the credit crisis:
1)nationalise any bank that goes wrong putting more tax payers money at risk
2)buy some computers for the poor
3)travel around the world tlaking about banking regulation when you came up with the regulation that failed in the first place
4)call a 'novice' anyone who has not had the chance to burn billions of pounds at the taxpayers expense
5)repeatedly say you are the right man for the job (interesting tactic that one as it never got me a job in the private sector)
5a)don't forget to criticise all opposition for not having a plan and not being the right man for the job.
6)repeat all of the above
7)try points 1-5a all over again then go for point6
er, that's all.
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If Brownedov is right about the Draper Drones then I feel sorry for grandantidote and kiwilegs to name a few.
For a long time they fought against some of the loonies on here on their own.
Come back! The cavalry is arriving!
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#72 balhamu
You have a point, albeit not a very good one. If the BluLab Tories are infesting this blog then at least they're doing it with a little more panache than than the NuLab Tories.
OTOH, could all the meaningless NuLab drivel be being posted by the BluLab Tories? I do love a good conspiracy theory.
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#119
But has the level of 'prudent debt' changed since 1996/97? And if it has changed, why?
It's a serious question.
Is it not prudent to invest in education, in health, in infrastructure, as this is likely to boost our long-term growth rate.
Or is it more prudent to reduce the debt and accept growth-restricting poor healthcare, poor education and poor infrastructure.
And, as I've said earlier, the cost of servicing the debt has remained constant IN CASH TERMS at £30 billion in both 1996/97 and 2006/07.
If you believe in this inflation thing that the media keep telling us is eating away at the value of the pound in our pocket, that means that the cost of servicing the national debt has DECREASED BY 31% IN REAL TERMS.
This, at least to me, doesn't suggest we have taken on a level of debt that is not prudent. It would suggest we now hold a level of national debt that is more prudent than it was in 1996/97 (equal prudence would imply the real cost of servicing the debt should be the same)
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re: 112 sagamix
I beg to differ; the draper clones are very obvious, and they've suddenly appeared overnight in large number all spouting the same stuff as each other.
It happened on sky yesterday, and it was so obvious, and now it's happening on the bbc.
You can check this by right-clicking and open-in-new-tab/window of the blog handle/username; you'll see that almost all the pro-labour postings from today are from "people" who've only started posting today.
There's too large a number of completely new pro-labour people all spouting the same stuff as each other for it to be a coincidence when you know for a fact that draper has setup a blog attack force.
In fact, on the sky have-your-say pages yesterday it was so obvious and such a massive blanket attack that I'm surprised sky allowed their have-your-say pages to continue to be used.
I hope the bbc start to do something to minimise the site attack, perhaps by making sure the ip addresses of new users don't all come from the same building, or that they're not all using anonymous rotating free hotmail addresses etc.
(I know you're real though, so I hope you stay and carry on contributing despite the attacks by Draper)
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125 CEH
I seem to have irked your zen-like sense of inner calm, but being the all knowing one, I expect you knew that already.
I hope some poeple do benefit educationally from the PCs and some actually set up businesses.
But I think that most people - Tory, negative or whatever - know how this one will end ......
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Let's get real on this, this is all a result of a Group of wealthy Bankers taking advantage of a loosely self-regulating system. They created many money making, high leveraged instruments. Because they are trading them between themselves you end up with a huge 'black hole' in the system.
Can you blame the politicians, not really. It has taken the Banks themselves 9 months or more to find out their position.
The Banks are also to blame for the culture of buy now pay later. I use to get about 3 a week nice offers of credit cards. Full colour brochures telling me I was already vetted and sure of getting their card. Credit limit of more than my yearly pensions added together. Full of lovely South Sea Island pictures for a holiday of a lifetime. No wonder the young end up with debts in tens of thousands over a number of cards.
Mathematically house prices have risen at a rate far out stripping salaries etc. It is obvious they would have to drop. Obvious that is ,to all but the Estate agents and Banks giving out Mortgages to all.
We are all in a way to blame for taking part in this financial Scam, not just the Politicians.
So boys and Girls lets go for the real culprits.
I will make one political statement
Vince Cable for Prime minister
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#79 balhamu
Yes, the BluLab website is starting to produce nearly as many of the dreaded 404 errors as the NuLab one. Perhaps one of their faithful will post a URL to prove me wrong, but conservatives.com now seems to have gone the same way as the NuLab site in consigning their 2005 manifesto into a 404 black hole.
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I know a guy, he's not a friend but I know him, and he's pretty lucky in that he has an ultra secure job for life (and I mean for life, not just till he's 65) paying around 100,000 pounds per annum. Index linked too, can you believe that!, so he doesn't have to worry too much about inflation.
Anyway, thing is is that this guy has borrowed money from time to time over the last few years and his debt is now running in the range 40 to 50 grand.
So, chaps, what do you reckon to his situation? ...
- is he in dire straits and heading for certain bankruptcy?
- or do his debts seem fairly manageable, given his rather fortunate circumstances?
Please let me know your thoughts. You can throw in one of those deadly original jokes about how the guy is obviously public sector, if you must.
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when you know for a fact that draper has setup a blog attack force.
Yep. 'Triumph of the Will' politics. The plane descends through cloud then flies on over perfectly ordered streets and then the vast crowd below.
Tony Blair imagery. Prep the cameras. Tip off the journalists. Bus in a couple of coach loads of paid cheering apparatchiks so that all the news imagery is of joyous, happy people hailing the 'popular' PM.
Sow the seed in the doubter' minds. Maybe it's just me who thinks this government is a bunch of crooks. Galvanise the faithful. Yeah, we must be doing okay. Look, spontaneous cheering crowds.
And this is just an attempt to do the same thing online is it?
Too late.
The cat is out of the bag. Labour's carefully screen-cut 'reputation' for prudence has been exposed for the bare-faced scam it always was.
Nobody is fooled any more except those who can't let go of the dream. It should have been better, therefore it is better. Mind over matter. Fantasy before fact.
For the rest of us though. The other 76% who wont be voting Labour it's a done deal.
Labour are history. You are the weakest link. Goodbye.
Good.
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It doesn't matter what Cameron says in a speech, its what the Tories do that counts. What are they going to do about the activities of hedge funds and other market spivs who fund them? I also don't remember Cameron ever confirming that their chief donor Lord Ashcroft is now domiciled in the UK and now pays Uk income tax. Whats the problem with being transparent about this? Osborne and the rest of the shadow cabinet were highly critical of the Northern Rock bail out. Now they want to commit the British taxpayer to underwriting every bank deposit.
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@ 129
Robin, you forgot to call for an election ... what's going on?
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1) Charlie your not very enlightened.
One of the few times I have bothered to read your posts, and as usual I found it unfair.
Your post showed you did not listen to what was said.
The law that you say is sensible we will see if that’s the case, we are in uncharted waters and no law can be called sensible until we see how it deals with the situation, Gordon recently has a history of shooting wide of the goal (10p springs to mind).
You cherry pick parts Camerons speech to prop up your own view not very Zen of you 'fairness’ don’t appear to come into it when you do stuff like that.
has it ever occurred to you that maybe Cameron is actually trying to help he may disagree with browns answer but for the time being is willing to put objections aside and do what they can.
Or are you so blinded by hate for them your actions simply spreads bad karma ( 'cause' to defend your belief in brown and fail to understand our concerns 'effect' makes ppl more hard line against him and you). This is evident by the sheer numbers that attack you and him on here.
He is dropping opposition now to deal with the immediate crises. And will return to this if and when the crisis is over.
It’s the only approach open at the moment deal with the crises and then argue the case to make sure it never happens again, I was starting to waver on Cameron but now I see he’s a man I can support with confidence.
As for your rhetoric charge isn’t that the exact same thing brown did last week words phrases buzzwords designed to convince ppl he is the right man.
Difference is ppl like you loved him for it, but when Cameron did it you dissed him for it, all that does is to make you is an hypocrite, just like the rest of us, and don’t help you live up to the enlightened persona you try to portray on here.
I can say the same thing about labour all the pretty words will not make up for the dismal failures we have seen from them especially in recent years, I can also use your tactics the pre Tory years which I also remember but I wont, I am more interested in the future than living in the past.
Brown was supposed to be this great chancellor yet he didn’t have the Witt to say hang on what would happen if all the credit started to dry up one day, perhaps we should put plans in just in case that happens.
This is a simple scenario to consider and not unforeseeable as claimed, which I why I am not in dept and have never been, result a healthy savings account in a wiser bank to offset the bad times.
He didn’t do that and no apologist can cover up for that fact, result we now have to knee jerk react to deal with it.
Charlie lets have some fairness from you once and try to understand our side or do you intend to continue to be a pre 17th century tengu on these blogs.
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Fred @ 135
The super low interest rates coming out of the US caused the house price boom. Alan Greenspan, the Poodle of Wall Street, is more to blame than anyone else, I'd say.
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#87 dvonof wrote:
"I mean, am I the only one who sees "Dave" jumping on the 'I'm serious because there are things to be serious about' bandwagon that Brown put forward last week??"
Hello newbie. Obviously you're not the only Draper robot peddling the same dosh. Your first post would be a little more credible if you had actually read some of the 86 previous posts.
Perhaps you're a defective model with a Write Only Memory.
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It's quite telling just how scared Labour are of David Cameron and the rejuventaed Conservatives judging by the amount of anti-Tory/pro-Brown posts this blog has received. If they think any of their posts on here are going to make a blind bit of difference come the next election, then they're living in cloud-cuckoo land.
I thought Cameron gave a very measured, and reassuring speech today and I am looking forward to hearing more tomorrow. We don't need Brown to get us through a crisis he has helped to create. We need him to step down and get out of the way.
Well done Mr Cameron!
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I'm still recovering from the knowledge that David Miliband has a banana complex, hardly surprising, but still. Now, however, I'm alarmed to hear that David Cameron has a plum in his mouth!
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We are all in a way to blame for taking part in this financial Scam,
Speak for yourself.
As you clearly accept your own liability you will forgive the innocent despising you for what you have been part of.
The young end up in debt because the Govenment get kids 'hooked' with student loans, so they start adult life tens of thousands in debt before they have earned a penny.
Why not make free cigarettes available too... and wonder why there are so many smokers.
Free alcohol? - student union already do their best on that...
Its actually very simple, what is complicated is the way the left can't do anything without making an over managed, over resourced, over complex, over manned mess of every thing they touch.
Marx and 'Redistribution' may have meant something when the 'workers' lived hand-to-mouth in squallor while others lived on 'old' money that they had done nothing for, with fortunes that grew quicker than they could be spent.
The left are too stupid to realise that they are irrelvant - even if there were only adam and eve in eden they would find some thing to whinge about, fiddle, mis-manage, interfere with.
Leave people alone to get on with it - you aren't needed. If people do need help, it is probably with the burdens that you impose, go away and it will all be well, the problems go with you.
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getrid @ 133
Well thank you, that's kind.
I'm more anti BTP than pro New Labour, as it happens. Out on the left wing is where you'll normally find me skulking around, waiting for the ball.
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brownforever @15 asks:
"Did you know Cameron's Mum jailed Swampy?"
She's too soft by far. I would have drowned the benefits-scrounging wastrel.
Foe those asking about the whereabouts of Brown, further proof that Our Blessed Leader has the anti-Midas Touch:
Once Brown said he wanted to "discuss how to back up the US's proposed $700bn package to calm the financial markets" the thing fell apart.
Derek Draper
Ran a caper
For his Blessed Leader.
He thought he was clever
Yet all saw his endeavour
As the work of a naff bottom feeder.
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#83 jonathan_cook
Brilliant detective work on the 10th anniversary of that piece of wit and wisdom from The Supreme Leader.
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Herers a start - let all ghurkers settle in the UK, and sack all the civil servasnt who are lined up to do reviews etc...
Save millions in one simple stroke.
New Labour have manufactured plenty of other 'jobs' that just aren't needed - people whos main task, is finding something to keep them occupied and (if possible) generate new 'do nothing' posts too.
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In my view, we have the choice of the proven incompetence of the current administration and the very questionable competence of the alternative. I would have felt more reassured if the Conservatives had kept their focus on the economic mismanagement of 'New Labour'.
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122. stephennewte
Derek Draper clone
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On Mark to Market
So DC wants the accounts of Banks to show as assets the worthless mortgages they cannot sell. How will this increase confidence in the quality of the accounts?
Will DC distance himself and his party from the deregulation pioneered by Margaret Thatcher? It seems his party still treats Margaret Thatches as a goddess - a strange goddess that set in motion the policy shift in regulation that gave rise to the Credit Crunch!!! It beggars belief that the Tories cannot see the connection between Margaret Thatcher's policies on regulation and the banking crash.
I suppose if you party is funded by short sellers and other 'bank robbers' (Church of England's definition) they you would want to support them. I call upon the Tory Party to send back all money received from such people received in the last decade and take back all honours granted to them (including from their ex treasurer.)
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Nick
You say that the Conservatives have looked wrong footed by the crisis. I agree. But - which political party in the Western world has not?
All of them have, even those in power who have been armed with all the inside, advance information needed better to enable them to exercise foresight and judgment and act on it - flying pig alert - and to play the clever and experienced card when reacting with hindsight to unfolding events.
I think Cameron and the Conservatives are indeed struggling to guess what is likely to happen next and how best to influence events - but no more so than Republicans and Democrats in USA and certainly no more so than Labour in the UK.
As to Cameron's speech, I think it was less partisan and more statesman like than anything we have heard so far from G. Brown.
As for the comments from the sole occupant of planet Hardwidge, plainly he is an exceedingly clever chap. I don't know why he doesn't simply set out the answer to the global financial problem for the benefit of us mere mortals and all the politicians and political commentators who apparently wait with bated breath for him to set the agenda on this and every other topic.
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Why do so many sad Labour voters keep blaming the one and only Maggy Thatcher? It was November 1990 when she was stabbed in the back and she ended her time as PM. Yet coming up to 20 years on and still Labour voters blame her for todays problems (Charles E Hardwidge). Don't you think its time we moved on and let it pass. You are no better than England fans singing two world wars and one world cup at German fans. Look closer to home for these problems. Over 10 years we have had of Nu Labour, 10 years to at least be close to doing what they want. But we are all waking up and seeing spin, tax rises and empty promises from this out of date Labour. I thought Scots were ment to be good with money but as luck get you we must have the only one who has holes in his pockets. Cameron may not be in the same league as Saint Thatcher but I am sure he will be a 100 times better than Gordon (trust me) Brown. So to save your country put an X next to a tory. Hey thats a good slogan for the election. What you think Nick?
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#96 balhamu
Not quite "democratically elected in the same way ALL OTHER PMs IN OUR HISTORY were democratically elected".
He became the first PM since Douglas-Home (didn't he do well!) to take over from an "elected" PM without an internal party election.
And yes, thanks to the electoral system he and his chum Tone rigged on their path to infamy I know he was the only candidate to get enough MP nominations to put before the party membership.
Even Mugabe held an election with only his name on the ballot paper, at least allowing his electorate the satisfaction of spoiling their papers.
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#150
Sack all civil servants.
Enlightened thinking.
Close the schools.
Close the colleges.
Close the universities.
Stop lending students money.
Close the hospitals.
Close all GP surgeries.
Close all police stations.
Close the tube.
Stop unemployment benefit.
Stop sickness benefit.
Stop disability benefit.
Close the job centres.
Stop road maintenance.
Stop social care.
Stop all regulation.
Stop collecting taxes.
Stop all court cases.
Stop implementing the law.
Stop action to prevent flooding.
Stop putting out fires.
Stop funding scientific research,
Stop giving aid to Africa.
Stop diplomancy.
Stop defence spending.
Stop paying the state pension.
Stop working families tax credit.
Stop sure start.
Stop child benefit.
etc
All of these activities are completely useless. The private sector could pick up anything the market decides would be worthwhile.
What a lovely world that would be! Zero taxes. Zero government expenditure. Bliss.
All it takes is one simple stroke.
Oh, and we will have to think of a way of getting out of the legal commitment to paying redundancy monies for all of these civil servants, and their pensions.
But I like the cut of your jib. That's a fantastic idea. Sign me up.
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Nick certainly captures how the 'tone' of recent Brown and Cameron speeches may be received. But on the 'substance'?
BOTH parties have a huge problem with the substance of the financial crisis. What is obvious to all but the most blinkered is that the age of extreme deregulation, the extreme laissez faire capitalism inaugurated by Reagan and Thatcher, has collapsed. Just as surely as utopian communism collapsed before it. Symmetrically, it will simply not be possible for at least the next twenty years to say "government should keep out of business" (just as it was not possible before to say "the state should run the economy").
Cameron's party is of course the true originator of the awful mess we now see around us. Brown's party decided it had to 'get with the programme', and so continued with the manic and irresponsible deregulation of the financial sector. They have been the co-creators of an ideological debacle whose demise was in fact widely predicted before the event.
Both major parties now have nothing of substance to say. There is nothing for them to say, no more than there was much for Brezhnev to say in an earlier time. "Sorry" seems to be the hardest word?
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Mr Ditherer has blown it and I for one would rather have a dead sheep running the country than him and the Labour Party.
The conservatives whilst younger are not stupid and are holding their ammunition until they give Labour the full broadside whenever the election is called however late!
We need a change at in totality, Labour has blown it and hasn't a clue, surrounds itself with regulators and advisers who also haven't a clue and we can only hope that when the conservatives finally take office they will have the mother of all clearouts to let this great country coem alive again and not wallow with the living dead who call themselves the party of government.
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"There are, also, no elections here to frighten parliamentarians into vetoing proposed bail-outs."
Unless you're privy to some rather startling news that would relegate all this financial stuff to a very poor second place, I think you're wrong about that. There will be elections some time within the next 2 years.
So what did you really mean by this comment? Is it just that there is some way in which American politicians have to do what their constituents wish or they get voted out, whereas British politicians can pretty much do as they like knowing that it will make no difference to the election because most people just vote along party lines as they have always done?
That's actually quite interesting if you think that American democracy works so much better than our own.
Or is it just that you don't think most voters have memories stretching more than a few weeks. You could be right about that, which is a rather depressing thought.
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#153
Priceless.
Let's blame someone who left office 18 years ago rather than the man at the helm of the economy for the last 11 years.
Gold's doing well at the moment, isn't it? OK the markets would still be knackered but at least we'd have something to sell if GB hadn't flogged it all and spent it on feckless NHS IT systems.
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Truth @ 146
The left does not need a load of government meddling in people's lives. We only need 3 things ...
1. education 100% in the state sector
2. clear and progressively stacked rates of income and inheritance tax
3. actually, that's it
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#99 getridofgordonnow
I hope you're wrong, but that does seem to be the way things are moving.
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#156
So, let me get this straight.
In your opinion, Gordon Brown would be acceptable to you as democratically elected if someone stood against him in the Labour Party leadership contest in 2007.
Ok.
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If you pay peanuts you get monkeys. If you pay bananas - oh you get Miliband!!!
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David Cameron's tone was impressive according to Nick Robinson. Having just watched an extract on this website I have to agree. I believe that the difference between this and Gorden Brown's attempts last week is that one is a natural communicator and the other is not. Obviously substance is what counts (thats for the future) but at least we can easily understand Cameron and this is a welcome change.
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#106 rdutton
Hello newbie No.NNN. I see that you have nothing to say either. Was Mr Draper afraid of building in artificial intelligence?
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sagamix @162 wrote:
"The left does not need a load of government meddling in people's lives. We only need 3 things ...
1. education 100% in the state sector"
Why?
What about freedom of choice? If parents can't choose to educate their own children as they see fit then you might as well 'nationalise' them.
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There's opportunists and there's opportunism and they seem to have met in the middle today in the form of David Cameron.
The disaster in Congress happened because it was the REPUBLICANS who wouldn't support Bush. The Dems produced over fifty percent of their vote. The Republicans failed - and that's why it went down.
And it went down most of all amongst the Republicans from Arizona and Texas who between all 23 of them delivered only three votes in favour of the leadership.
It's all very well for David Cameron to jump on a bandwaggon , but its not too difficult to find him out.
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It's past 6 o'clock.
I guess all the Draper Drones have logged off for the day. (Can't Nu Labour afford overtime?).
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#114 Charles_E_Hardwidge
"I've been thinking that Labour need to develop more confidence and get out more"
Just out of office would do nicely for more than three quarters of the electorate.
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Hello Old timers. Osbourne has something of the night about him, don't you agree, really? Go on, admit it. I'd really like to see that photo of Cameron in his fancy dress outfit too. All you OldBlus have been waiting so long to be led to the promised land by.....Hinge and Bracket!
Let's here it for the boys.
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The Real Truth @ 150
I was reading about this Chinese physicist the other day, total genius of a guy, and he's called "Lo Wi Keu" ... got to admit that's funny, isn't it?
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Nick,
A tale of two conferences.....
Cameron has been statesman-like in this economic crisis.
This video shows a schoolboy-like Brown caught out and scrabbling for his notes after trying to trick the public over Conservative policies:
http://www.guynews.tv/2008/09/boulton-to-brown-do-you-think-you-owe.html
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Is Derek Draper a moderator?
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re: 147 sagamix
"I'm more anti BTP than pro New Labour"
cool, well there's the balance you/we all want then, because I'm more anti-labour than pro-tory at the moment.
The lesser of 2 evils; it's a horrible choice to have to make regardless of which side of the fence you're on at the moment.
However, 135 FredOnTheFence pointed towards a possible 3rd way, but I won't hold my breath until/unless the libdems stop coming up with weird ideas like having airport queue taxes.
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#161 Jonno_79
Thatcher did leave office 18 years ago BUT it was she who started this deregulation business and it is her philosophy of regulation that still works on both sides of the Atlantic today so it is absolutely correct to blame the creator of the regulation regime. It was precisely this same philosophy of regulation that was taken up by the republican party and Regan as Reganomics - so it is absolutely correct to blame her. You cannot finesse your way round that. She was to blame and is to blame.
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There's a bigger picture. Britain's economic fundamentals are broken, and Cameron is moving in a predictable way. The rest flows from that.
That folks assume unalloyed support for THE GREAT LEADER, and am being cruel to a spiv is misreading my position. You need to look beyond this.
As for this recession I'm not feeling a thing. Fitting a new doorbell the other week? Now, that was a pain in the ass. Okay, so it's not GOD'S OWN DOORBELL but it's my doorbell, and I like it.
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From Derek Draper's website:
"Experienced at treating emotional and psychological issues including: self-esteem, personal development, depression, anxiety, addictions, self-harm, personality problems and family and relationship concerns.
Experienced with children (from 8 years old), adolescents, adults, couples and families. "
The first sentence details his area of expertise with special relevance to Gordon Brown.
The first part of the second sentence outlines his relevance to the young Milibands.
Now wash your hands.
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#123 balhamu
"Don't forget that this Government one 2 landslide victories in 1997 and 2001, and one convincing victory in 2005. "
If less than 25% of the electorate is convincing then it just goes to show how undemocratic Westmidden is - by a long way the least democratic in the EU.
"That suggest to me that more left-wing input (and wanting to look at objective facts rather than ideological screeching) would make the blog more balanced."
I'd love to see some left-wingers posting here - it's the sparring between the authoritarian Tories and the libertarian ones that I find depressing, especially when the authoritarian NuLab wing seem to have nothing to say.
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137 sagamix
Ill play with sagamix
Your guy you know is just fine, his debt level is affordable.
Can I tell you about a guy I know?
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#122 stephennewte
Hello newbie. Has Mr Draper moved on to Mark 2 software?
Demutualisation is certainly something for the BluLab Tories to hang their heads in shame about, but strangely I seem to recall that the NuLab Tories have been in power for 11+ years letting it carry on. Getting a bit late now to blame it all on the other wing of your party, don't you think?
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162. sagamix
I think you might just have come up with the quickest way to make the remaining money leave the UK.
Force the well off to educate their children in one of this countries state run institutions
.
.
.
.
Thinking !!!!!!
.
.
.
.
Yep that would definitely do it
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I don't know why some people are attacking "Tories" for multiple postings on here like we are all in a pact or something. It is my hope that everyone is speaking for themselves but of course you only have to speak to your neighbour, the man in the street, in the bus queue or whatever to hear that they mostly seem to be in favour of getting this lot out and the Conservatives in. Fact.
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I dread this man and party leading the country.
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#161.
#153 is not only priceless, they are also fundamentally wrong. Prior to 2001 financial regulation was carried out by specialist organisations focused on parts of the financial sector, such as the Securities and Futures Authority and the Investment Management Regulatory Organisation. The bank of England supervised banks.
So, guess who came along and destroyed it all and created the Financial Services Authority?
That's correct. Gordon did.
It took months for the FSA after it came on line in 2001 to get its act together to even understand its own rule book and was then engulfed some years later in some enourmous directive from Europe.
So: to refer to Thatcher in the usual derogatory way to deflect criticism away from where it's due - ie at Gordon - is pretty shoddy. Shoddy, but as experience shows, not unsurprising.
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Max @ 168
For me, equality of opportunity trumps freedom of choice in this particular area.
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getrid @ 176
Can't go LD, I'm afraid ... just couldn't do that.
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#130 peteholly
I share your sorrow for grandantidote in particular. I usually think he's mistaken but have no doubt whatsoever about his integrity in writing what he believes in.
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I cannot stand that Harriet Harperson, David Millibanana, Yvette Cooper and her partner Ed Balls!
Alan Johnson seems like a nice bloke but quite frankly none of them could be PM. I have met Tony McNulty - nasty experience - before he was infiltrated to Labour's heirachy. He was vicious in Harrow Council chamber and verbally berated a group of parents for wanting the best for their sons' school and I would never trust him in a million years. Kelly has got out of town by sundown. That leaves Brown and the motley crew to a Mexican standoff until he feels he can let go of the power (that's all it is) and let the country decide.
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#133 getridofgordonnow
Spot on. There may even be a few real NuLab newbies today, but it's hard to believe they've all assimilated the entire philosophy of CEH along with his wit and wisdom. To any who have, I apologise and hope the damage to your system is only temporary.
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The point of this speech was to make it clear that, given the serious circumstances, the conservatives would support the government in measures to get us out of the hole we are in. Was it ever intended to be a comprehensive list of the measures we should take? Of course, not. We haven't had one of those from Mr Brown yet either. It is obvious that politicians are trying to find their way through this. So why criticize one politician like this?
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#157
Wow I hit one of your nerves there didn't I.
Presumably you (or people close to you) benefit from 'make work' public sector posts.
Your only defence being to hide behind worthwhile public sector workers using them as 'human sheilds' to protect your own worthlessness.
Or maybe you do really believe that the choice is total state control of every thing or nothing. That would certainly explain your enthusiam for labour...
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#138 U9461192
"Maybe it's just me who thinks this government is a bunch of crooks."
Not quite, but I don't think they start in politics as crooks. The temptations of office and particularly the power the Westmidden system puts in the hands of the PM is simply too strong for the weak-willed, which is most of them.
So long as Westmidden has a system with no effective checks and balances, I'm quite sure that future PMs of all supposed political colours will be just as unsavoury as the present incumbent and his predecessor.
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#139 keebird
Hello newbie, another cheery manifestation of Mr Draper I see.
What, pray, can any opposition party realistically promise when they know the books have been cooked for 11 years and the official figures misstated?
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What are " massive intellect " Brown and his strange companion Darling actually doing about the financial crisis apart from talking about it ? "Measures have been taken, steps will be taken , whatever is needed will be done" .Has any of it actually been done ? After they've done all this, will we still have £200 billion of national debt; i.e. £100 billion borrowed, plus Northern Rock plus Bradford and Bingley. I know it's simplifying matters but unless Brown knows a kindly banker, the interest on this will be about £10 billion per year. Why, if the Irish government can guarantee deposits in there entirity can Brown not guarantee up to £50,000 ? Is there something else he forgot to tell us or is he going to announce it at 3 A.M. or in the middle of a European cup game when no one's listening ?
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#184
Maybe you came late - every left-of-centre poster (or even centre-right poster) on here gets accused of being in the pay of the Labour party.
But you're right - every time I talk to someone on the bus they're saying "I wish the Government reduced the inheritance tax on millionaires". FACT. Its a burning issue amongst the majority of people in this country and a priority for £1 billion of Government money.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Prime Ministerial address - have I been transported into an alternate universe. Then I read the second sentence and realised that all was well in the world again and it was merely Nick out on the hustings drumming up support for the good old Dave.
This was the man who 18 months ago was in a similar position to Gordon Brown with stalking horses etc being lined up.
Seem to recall he set a wonderful Prime Ministerial example to the floods affecting large parts of the UK, including his own constituency last year - headed off to Africa. As Blackadder would say "wibble" while having pencils up each nostril and a pair of pants over his well groomed bonce.
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Balhamu
So refreshing to find a blogger who it would appear you can have a grown up debate with. Your ongoing blog with MrU the other day was enlightening to follow
If I may, could I bend your ear for a while
You state that "the electorate voted for this approach to the public finances and the paying back of debt". No point arguing
However, following this to its logical conclusion . Does this mean that Nu labour were given a mandate by the electorate to borrow just as much as it jolly well pleased?
Surely there must be some limit on the borrowing or isn't there.
There has been lots of debate as to where the public finances are at the moment and I do not wish to add to your "conversation " with MrU.
Suffice it to say, hopefully, you can't disagree, that currently the finances have room for improvement.
My worry, is that it is not where the finances are at the moment that is my problem, it is where they are going.
Government projections suggest we have a current borrowing requirement and some say that it is too much.
Obviously projections can be wrong, one way or another, but all indications suggest they are going to be out in a bad way.
Having problems with this blog so will continue on another
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#193
So who are the worthless Civil Servants? You know, the one doing 'non jobs'.
Right-wingers often assert that a large proportion of the Civil Service is worthless. The public sector does nothing of any value, or at least not much according to these people.
However, they are silent on what services they would cut if they got rid of the worthless civil servants. Asserting that there is 'massive inefficiency' that can be cut without cutting services is misleading without showing where this inefficiency is.
I'm guessing every manager (or pen-pusher - using the private sector term before, sorry) in the Civil Service? Those implementing health and safety policies? Those regulating employers? Those administrating certain benefits? Those implementing the minimum wage?
What's on the hit list?
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#153 John_from_Hendon
A fair point, although it would have been fairer had you pointed out that the incumbent NuLab Tories have pretty much the same set of paymasters.
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#143. At 5:14pm on 30 Sep 2008, Brownedov wrote:
"Hello newbie. Obviously you're not the only Draper robot peddling the same dosh. Your first post would be a little more credible if you had actually read some of the 86 previous posts.
Perhaps you're a defective model with a Write Only Memory."
Such a political nous, eh? If you have something meaningful to say, say it. Otherwise, go crawl back to your hole!
ps. by the way, you appear particularly obsessed with the whole "newbie" - "draper" theme...I wonder why...
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#154 Only jocking
A fair summary and LOL re CEH
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balhamu
finding it very difficult to post
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#164 balhamu
"In your opinion, Gordon Brown would be acceptable to you as democratically elected if someone stood against him in the Labour Party leadership contest in 2007."
No, but he would at least have a shred of democratic credibility in the way that both Major & Callaghan did.
The last government to have real democratic legitimacy was Baldwin's after the National Government got over 50% of the votes cast at the 1935 election, although I would concede that Churchill's wartime coalition had reasonable grounds for not seeking a democratic mandate before VE day.
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#172 brownforever
You're clearly not a machine but then you're also not very good at communicating your own views. As the great mathematician, Tom Lehrer put it it: "I feel that if a person can’t communicate the very least he can do is to shut up."
I'll comment again if you post anything worth responding to.
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187. sagamix
Or put another way:
If we have to control you all to enforce equality, then so be it.
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199. robgem2618
Derek Draper Cyborg Infestation Detected
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#185 Hiddenranbir
"I dread this man and party leading the country."
So do I because it will probably be rather like NuLab with a human face. A few less lies, a different kind of sleaze and a bit less authoritarian perhaps but constitutional reform will be as far off as ever unless Cameron really is a unionist and wants to save the union.
Short of a hung parliament, there's precious little hope of a democratic UK.
What's your reason and what would you prefer?
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137 sagamix
Oh all right if you insist
Well this bloke. He was on 100 grand a year, thought it would last forever, trouble is, his salary just went down to 75 grand and hes borrowing more now to pay the bills.
Hes just told me that for the past eleven years hes had an interest only mortgage and hasnt paid off any of the capital. He also sold the house to firm that rents it back to him for a crazy rent and adds on a hefty maintenance contract to boot.
His household staff all have final salary pension schemes, so hes had to raid his to pay theirs. To cap it all his kids need a bit of a hand out, you know for luxuries like fuel and food
When I asked him where he had spent the 50 grand overdraft, he told me that he had bought some sports cars that turned out not to comply with UK road regulations, oh yes and he also built a holiday home, but failed to get planning permission, so had to knock it down again.
Funny thing is, someone just given him a job as a financial advisor.
Wow I thought. who would ever be that daft
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#199 robgem2618
Hello newbie. I hope you're not the first of Mr Draper's night shift but on the off-chance you're not perhaps you'd share with us your views on who would you'd prefer and why?
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#200
That's not what I'm saying - of course there is a limit.
The debate with Mr U was on
* whether the debt has doubled or not (it has if you pretend there was no inflation)
* whether income is important in determining the affordability of the national debt (quite obviously so - if I were a bank I would consider it prudent to lend more to someone with a higher income)
* whether it has increased as a % of GDP or not (the IFS would say no - excluding Northern Rock commitments, which the IFS acknowledge may not actual lead to any debt for the taxpayer, the debt has decreased since 1997 slightly, even including PFI debt).
* whether we pay more or less to service our national debt (we pay less, £30 billion in cash terms in 1996/97 and 2006/07)
So, those who try and claim the UK has taken on unaffordable levels of debt since 1997 are wrong. We clearly have not.
The Government have also balanced (or almost balanced) the current budget. They have borrowed only to invest over the previous economic cycle. Compare to the previous Government that run a cumulative current deficit 1979-1997 of £320 billion (paid for by selling lots of state assets at a massive discount and squandering the North Sea Oil receipts).
Your question is slightly different to that. It is difficult to say what the level of debt that is prudent would be. That's a very difficult question. It's a case of balancing the cost of repayments and deciding whether additional investment (new schools, hospitals, infrastructure) is worth any additional debt. There would be no sense in passing up investment that would add to economic growth because the level of debt was considered too high (which inflexible approaches commiting the UK to pay back the debt over time would do).
Labour set the level at 40% of GDP which they have not met - I don't buy the 'PFI isn't debt' line they use. It is an artificial ceiling though - not based on any sense of what is affordable or what the 'optimum' level of debt and investment should be. It was used by Labour to get financial markets to believe they were credible when they said they had changed their perceptions of economic management, and kill the 'back to the 70s' jibes of Conservatives.
And you are right - the current slowdown will increase borrowing. Though I think not as much as it could have done - the Government are cutting real wages of civil servants this year (and probably next) to reduce the deficit and the last CSR settlement is eye-wateringly tight and will lead to cuts across the public sector.
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#203 dvonof
"If you have something meaningful to say, say it."
I do try to and would welcome your responses to my criticisms of the current undemocratic system at Westmidden, some of which are on this thread.
However, simply to say "I mean, am I the only one who sees "Dave" jumping on the 'I'm serious because there are things to be serious about' bandwagon that Brown put forward last week??" as your sole contribution to the debate when 86 comments have already been posted doesn't indicate that you have much meaningful to say yourself.
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re: 214 Brownedov
You're fighting a battle which isn't worth the effort and which you can never win or lose; best to give it up and have a beer before the illogical/irrelevant responses you get start to drive you mad.
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#205 somebody_help
"finding it very difficult to post"
If by that you mean your posts are not being accepted by showing up as "This comment is awaiting moderation" after you press the Post Comment button, see my #75 on the New ways into blogs thread.
9 times out of 10, it's an attempt to post &, <, > or similar "special" characters.
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#215 getridofgordonnow
Yes, you're right and I'm certainly not going to do it tomorrow, but it's at least some confirmation of the Draper theory that so few of the challenges have met with any response at all. Nearly done tonight, anyway.
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Number 10 downing street. I hope that helps.
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Strange how people never moaned when things were going well everybody loved Brown and is financial policies, how things have changed now the piper as to be paid no more easy credit can't afford the second mortage are in debt up to your neck. Along comes Nicks and everybodies knight in shining armour David Cameron to solve the coutries problems. If Nick or anyone else believes this you must have extremely short memories.
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I'm not a tory supporter and I don't know if Cameron will do any better, but I find it difficult to blame them for the mess. They haven't been in power for eleven years Eventually people must accept that this is the resposnsibility of the labour party. It's simply not reasonable to blame anyone else.
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Carrots @ 211
Well your guy sounds like he's floundering a little ... please give him my best wishes for the future.
On the education thing, if one believes in equality of opportunity, it's essential that we do what I'm saying. An excellent school for every child, regardless of who they are or where they live. We will never get that as long as we have opting out by people who can afford it.
There are 2 competing values here ... equality of opportunity versus the right of parents to spend their own money on giving their own children an advantage over others.
For me, the former is more important.
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#213
I think we both know that the "balanced budget" argument over the "economic cycle" is pretty well flawed.
The fact is that the goal posts were changed to ensure a balanced budget; it was not due to economic savviness, but a statistical fudge. Only recently, we have seen significant statistical errors creep in over retail sales, housing and the twisting of statistics in relation to immigration.
What we do know, is that following the assumption of an economy on an upward trajectory in 1997, there have been current account deficits in most years of Gordon's treasuryship.
On the other hand, you can always make up what you want when you have the benefit of marking your own exam paper.
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221. sagamix
And me the latter.
Hence the problem with socialism, dont strive for excellence, dumb it down and dilute it for the sake of uniformity
What an awful world that leads to, it strips the sole out of people and turns them into drones.
You give a man nothing to strive for and it strives for nothing.
Interestingly on education, Jimbrant supplied a few figures recently.
It costs the state 6500 pounds each year to educate a child (that is school expenditure and does not include local authority or central government expenditure) To private educate my children costs 9000 pounds per year each, plus a few extras.
The difference is astonishing. I would say its about 3 - 4 times better.
I would guess that if you added local authority and government costs then you would get a pretty similar figure. (could be wrong)
That is the reality of socialism in action.
Waste, inefficiency and needless job creation.
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221. sagamix
Just one other point you didnt take up, which I shall repeat.
If you told the rich to send their children to a state school. They would up sticks, and take their wealth to Europe.
Socialism is dead, even Chinas got the message.
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It all boils down to this,
Which Liar do you believe?
And as for the oranges their not fit for purpose either!
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Come on charles - lets have some more mysticism or least some obscure historical allegory!
This flight into plain speaking is quite disconcerting.
We've made no plans- so nothing can go wrong! S Milligan
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Beware of the smile of the tiger.
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