New world, new Brown
In those four words - new world, new Brown - you can sum up the prime minister's interview with Andrew Marr this morning. The new world he spoke of was captured in his phrase '"it's a global economy stupid". The new Brown - in his words "I want to do better" and his acceptance that he's made mistakes including the 10 pence tax fiasco.
But just how new is any of this? When it comes to the running of the economy, the former chancellor admitted no mistakes only regrets that the rest of the world had resisted his proposals for regulation of the global financial system.
In truth, all that was new this morning was Gordon Brown's demeanour. He looked relaxed, he looked as if he realised that he was not under immediate threat. The irony is that the worse things have got in the global economy, the cheerier Gordon appears to be.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~25~RS~)
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
Is that the best that the BBC Political Editor can do?
Brown didn't change his line from the usual one of 'best placed economy', 'right decisions for the long term'.
Did he admit that his financial regulatory structures failed? No.
Did he admit that he failed to see this coming - even though he has been closely involved in running the economy for over 11 years? No.
Did the BBC challenge him on this?
No.
Why aren't the BBC holding the government to account for recent events? They are not asking the tough questions.
Shameful.
Complain about this comment
It was Brown that ran up a >£30bn deficit (plus ??£10bn PFI?) in the twelve months to July 2007 - ie before the credit crunch hove into sight. That's a severe local problem that is limiting our room for manoevre compared to the Yanks or the Norwegians say.
Decline in our Economist Business Environment Rating from 2nd to 10th in the world under his watch ain't going to encourage new businesses to come in and get us out of this mess either.
And his persistent increases in oil taxation have discouraged the investment that might have halted the collapse in UK North Sea oil production - down 46% since 1999.
But apart from that, everything's fine. And of course he still claims credit for the 10 years of growth when the global economy was growing at 5-6%.
Didn't see him on Marr - but he was looking absolutely terrible on an interview the other day, he needs some kip.
Complain about this comment
The new world he spoke of was captured in his phrase '"it's a global economy stupid".
We've had a global economy for thousands of years; what makes Brown think it's all new? Ask the Romans or the Vikings or the Chinese or the Egyptians etc etc etc; we've had a global economy ever since boats were invented. If Brown thinks having a global economy is a totally new thing that he only now needs to think about, then that shows what a total idiot he is.
Nick, why are you constantly telling people that the worse the economy does, the safer Brown is in his job? That makes no sense; the man's been in charge of the economy for 11 years.
A global recession/downturn isn't all his fault, but the fact that his total negligence helped contribute/exacerbate the global situation, and the fact that we're so badly placed to deal with it, is 100% his fault.
He didn't have to rely solely on international regulations to help limit the risk to the uk; he could have introduced national legislation to limit the risk; it's been done before (under the tories), Brown simply couldn't be bothered until it was too late.
Nobody in their right mind is listening to anything that Brown says anymore; everyone knows he's just lying, obfuscating, and trying to shirk his own responsibilities; we don't want him anymore.
election please.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
He's finally dug grass! Cool, man, cool.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Now this new global economy. You'd never think that we used to buy cotton from America and do something with it in the mills of Manchester. You'd never think that we took gold mined from South Africa. You'd never think that we took meat and wool from Australia and New Zealand, to feed and clothe the masses. You'd never think that we took young men from the Dominions to fight to save democracy in World War I. Thousands dead on foreign fields.
As for finance, find out about Arbitrage where we would buy mining shares in South Africa and sell them in London making a quick turn. Ask about over-the-Counter trading, where bits of paper, bearer bonds could be traded for cash settlement.
What I would like to see is the international global markets bring back exchange control. You know what the Tories abolished when they last came into power, under Margaret Thatcher. You had to limit the amount of money transferred out of the country and all authorisation had to be through the Bank of England. You also had to pay a premium when buying currency. So, bring in an international system of exchange controls. Now that may well help.
As for Gordon, resign as Prime Minister and resume the role of Chancellor, you enjoy it, you do have power, because what you failed to mention at all was the occupation of Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, and the deteriorating situation in Pakistan. Why no mention of any of the sad deaths of the events in Pakistan, why not remember the names of those soldiers killed in Afghanistan.
Complain about this comment
Did anybody else watch the Sunday Politics show on BBC at 12:00. Just how rude was John Prescott, how so condescending. Did you notice how he was putting his hand on the shoulder of Charles Clarke.
Now, when I used to work in a bar one of the first things I did when a situation was developing, was that I would put my hand on the shoulder of the main trouble maker. Not to be pally but to feel what his neck muscles were like, so that if you got into a fight you knew if he was real threat, what you might be taking on. I wonder what John was doing.
The labour party has seriously lost the plot if they think that by not talking about a situation it will get better. Well sorry guys but the game is up. You've failed, totaly failed during your years in power to cahnge very much at all, there is still the unacceptable face of capitalism. A governmnet of national unity, stop fighting yourselves because next year will be dire.
Complain about this comment
To move on Brown really needs to admit that Britain has borrowed too much, in the public and private sectors, on his watch. Has he done that yet?
Complain about this comment
Gordon Brown is a beleaguered man but on an honourable mission. He would like to brush off persistent criticism from colleagues and Opponents alike and map out a strategy to reinvigorate Labour in its quest to win the next general elections. Labour is at its nadir but Gordon has found a spring in his step. This may augur better tidings. The world economic situation has been cataclysmic and no nation has been spared! But Gordon has an excellent record, a proven Chancellor who has guided the United Kingdom through choppy financial waters! So it would be totally unwise to rule him out. Instead his presciptions may jolly well be what the United Kingdom needs.
Complain about this comment
Brown is in denial.
Business as usual.
Complain about this comment
It is far easier to sit back and claim that it was someone elses fault than to admit that you were standing on the railroad tracks along with everyone else, had no clue a train was coming, and didn't walk a few feet away to save yourself. That Brown allowed the financial crisis to spread to UK banks by both allowing them to adopt American mortgage practices and to acquire the defective financial instruments from American institutions because of a failure to insist on one of the most basic principles of fiduciary responsibility, due dilligence be scrupulously adhered to is proof he was equally complicit in the fiasco with everyone else. Nor did any of the media "economics and business" analysts see it coming or sound the alarm before it was too late. Nor other experts in government or finance for all their high salaries, especially in the "investment community." They all not only misjudged the severity of the problem but the size of it. The irony is that now the very people who got us into this mess will be the same ones charged with getting us out of it. Why is there any reason to believe they have suddenly become wiser than they were a short time ago when they told us everything was just fine?
Complain about this comment
My old granny went to the same doctor for years and got the same prescription from him time and time again for her complaint. Over the years she must have had numerous pills from the Doctor and although some of her symptoms were helped, the real cause of her problem was not.
In the end it was realised that what the Doctor had been prescribing was wrong, she had had far too many pills and in fact granny's complaint was just getting worse.
" Don't worry" said the Doctor, I will change your prescription- I am after all a Doctor with years of experience- trust me"
After talking to her friend, Granny changed Doctor
Complain about this comment
Yawn. Can't Labour crawl off and die? We don't want them or their lies. JUST GO.
Complain about this comment
No it doesn't show a new Brown whatsoever.
Why? Because he's still talking about the only thing he knows anything about- finance. Whilst this is clearly extremely important he's still pushing schemes that completely and utterly destroy any privacy people had remaining.
He's still running as corrupt a party as he ever has (something I've witnessed first hand regarding honours).
If he wants to change he needs to stop telling us he's the best person for the current financial situation and start showing us he's the best person to run the country as a whole. Being able to run one part of the country well doesn't make him a good leader overall.
Childcare and schooling is something he mentions briefly also but again this is only part the set of problems the nation faces.
Where are our improved civil freedoms? Where are the reforms in public sector to get rid of the large percentage of deadweight there who act as nothing more than money sinks for billions of tax payers money? Where's the investment in sciences, technology? Where's the investment in important pieces of our history like Bletchley park?
No, Brown hasn't changed at all.
Complain about this comment
He's a tired old failure and should go now before he does any more damage to our economy.
Complain about this comment
This was a pathetic performance both by a Prime Minister who appears to be in denial and an interviewer who looked like he was scared to offend him in case he was blacklisted for future interviews. Brown's replies to the questions bore no relationship to the question asked and appeared to have been rehearsed from the PR's handbook.All bluster and soundbite, claims of direct action by himself and the chancellor to save the financial world, claims of assisting people with their fuel bills, and promises of more nursery places "over the next ten years". The country's finances are on the verge of total meltdown, yet all he can produce is nonsense about nurseries and fuel prices which, while in part due to world prices are largely due to the obscene level of taxation he has applied. Surely someone amongst his self serving acolytes can pluck up the courage to tell him that his position is no longer tenable and he has neither the expertise nor the moral right to continue in office. His forte may be moralising to the taxpayer, but I suspect that his true niche may lie in doing it from the pulpit where substance is of no particular importance.
Complain about this comment
'Its a global economy stupid'
Is this the same Global Economy that means the Pound is hitting record lows against the Euro? Nice to know that the Currency Traders have such faith in Gordon's global vision.
Complain about this comment
I look forward to David Cameron getting the same sympathetic analysis next week.
Complain about this comment
It's beyond incredible that any political journalist or commentator still finds it in himself to give credence to anything Gordon Brown says these days. The guy has recast the mould for a "busted flush" and will go down in history as the most incompetent, dishonourable and shameful prime minister in history. Ironic since he has such an unshakeably high opinion of himself, and such utter disdain for us mere voters.
Complain about this comment
Ha Ha! If nothing else the interview made me chuckle.
Sounded to me like Brown's got a new scriptwriter.
The familiar hand gestures, "Look, I'm just an ordinary guy..." "I've mede mistakes... must do better...".
It must be really confusing for the Blairite rebels, having GB looking and sounding just like TB.
Complain about this comment
From Robert Preston's blog:
"the statutory ceiling on US public debt is being raised from $10.6 trillion to $11.3 trillion a rise of 6.6 per cent - which puts this ceiling at around a fifth less than the entire annual output of the US economy."
So I think that means that the ceiling on public debt in the US is set at 80% of GDP. In the UK it is 40% (though currently a bit above that because of the extra 6% on account of Northern Rock). I think I recall that the level in Japan is similar to the US, while the EU sets its preferred ceiling at 60% .
You can see why Brown has a reputation for prudence. Or is there something wrong with these comparisons?
As for today's interview, I thought Brown did a lot better and got some good shots in at the Conservatives. Unfortunately though he will never be Blair.
Complain about this comment
I expect the majority of the 11 comments waiting to be moderated at the time that I am posting this comment are to do with concern about the Nick (I'm a Tory Supporter) Robinson's biased views of the PM's interview with Andrew Marr. I expect Nick Robinson, as a BBC reporter, to provide unbiased views. I do not expect him to lead the debate with a negative comment about the PM.
I am not a Labour supporter, but after hearing the PM today, I am currently confident that the Government is doing everything they can do for our economy with the current global crisis. I much prefer Brown to sort out the problems than for soudbite, unexperienced, webcameron to try and sort it out.
Complain about this comment
it doesn't wash anymore. sorry.....
Complain about this comment
New Brown?!!
Sounded like the same old Brown script to me.
Essentially, random phrases taken from the following and re-arranged every now and again...
"I am committed to taking the right long term decisions for the economic challenges we face.... and that's what I will continue to do.... blah blah... I think what matters is that I get on with the job, and that job is... blah blah... we will work together to deal with the economic problems we face... blah blah... I will continue to take the right long term decision for the country... blah blah.... My priority is and always has been to the PEOPLE of Britain, to the hard working families up and down the country.... blah blah.... challenges.... together.... make a difference.... blah blah...."
ARRGH!!! SPEAK HUMAN, MAN!!!!
Complain about this comment
Sory, but we've heard it all before - except that TB was a far better actor when prefending to shedding crocodile tears than GB will ever be.
We've had two sick-inducing diversions already: "Harry Potter and the Financial Rescue of the Labour Party" and yet more freebies for kiddies (to be paid for by yet another stealth tax on the REAL "hard working British families", of course). It doesn't take political genius to know there will be plenty more of the same half-warmed-up political junk food on offer for the next few days. Wake me up when it's over.
GB should enjoy his little holiday in Fortress Manchester while he can. The Party (and The Project) will soon be over.
Complain about this comment
We've had Thatcherism; we've had Blairism; welcome to the fantasy economic world of Gordonomics.
1 Encourage the middle classes to mortgage, re-mortgage, draw down the difference and spend, meanwhile tax them as hard as you can get away with.
2 Pay the others generous welfare benefits to keep them voting Labour as clients of a Labour Government. Reinforce this buy channelling government projects into Labour seats at the expense of the rest of the country.
3 Borrow as much as you can get away with; anything else use PFI at whatever the cost or value for money to keep the assets off the Governments books.
4 Keep telling everyone who will listen that you have banished boom and bust and am a brilliant Chancellor, some will believe you.
5 Keep your fingers crossed.
Woops, the whole edifice has come tumbling down so:
6 So blame everyone but yourself.
There is only one reason for Gordon to stay on and that is to apologise for the mess that he has created. At the present time he cannot even acknowledge the reality and will never admit that he has made a mistake, but then he never could.
Who's he trying to kid; because he doesn't kid me?
Complain about this comment
Ah, I get the picture now. It's not only all us stupid British voters who should listen to Mr Brown, but the entire world!
Does the man's foolishness know no bounds?
Complain about this comment
Brown in denial,BBC seemingly the only people in the country who think he has any credibility at all,same old Brown,same old BBC.
Complain about this comment
I listened to Brown on the Marr show.
I simply do not understand his harping on about a "new global economy". The economy has been global for centuries - accelerating post WWII.
All the way through Brown's chancellorship China was accumulating US dollars.
If he'd said that the lack of control over financial institutions was partly helped by EU efforts to make the US SEC reduce controls over the "imaginative" finance houses, I'd have clapped him.
Nothing he could do about global oil or commodity prices. But they've always gone up and down.
Fact is that he allowed - even encouraged - a credit-based UK economy. That's not global. That's local.
He could have limited the waterfall of loose cash into house purchase. By itself, that would have limited the soar-away rise in prices. And restricted re-mortgaging for the sake of casual high-street expenditure.
He could have encouraged more people to invest in private pension schemes. But chose to remove a tax-concession. That was nothing to do with global economics.
The 10p tax-rate fiasco (still unresolved over the long term), was a totally UK, Brown inspired, cock-up. You can't blame the Chinese, Indians or Americans for that.
Now he wants mothers (potential economic units) to hand over their two-year-olds to some state funded nurseries. I realise that his advisers think it's a good idea to teach sex education to 5 year olds, but has this guy any intention of shuffling his own kids into the hands of a third party?
I have quite a lot of sympathy for the man as an individual.
Just think he, Blair, Mandelson and Campbell created a parallel universe which could only be inhabited by people with a "reality lobotomy".
Complain about this comment
Brown is the new Brown. JKR's donation is a nice touch for the man who can turn a coach and horses in a pumpkin and 4 mice.
Complain about this comment
Each time Mr Brown churns out the mantras "I am the best man to lead us through the economic crisis" and "I will do better" and "I am listening to your concerns" the more convinced he is not the best man, he will not do better and he is not listening. It is a basic principle of humility not to blow your won trumpet - surely Mr Brown, being the son of a christian minister should have learn that by now - but it seems he has not. This is only surpassed in crassness by his cabinet lackeys echoeing almost word for word these phrases - and I am so sure everyone can see they don't believe a word they are saying !
Complain about this comment
What will you do, Mr Robinson, when you have finally personally rid the country of an elected Prime Minister? Your lack of professional impartiality is wearing a little thin.
Complain about this comment
The worse things get the more cheerful, must be the undertaker in him coming out.
Complain about this comment
New world, new Brown; wasnt that called renewal last year.
Its just a new catch phrase.
Im used to politians thinking we stupid, but this is startling.
Hes clearly taking a line from that famous orator George W:
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones to concentrate on.
Complain about this comment
New Rule, You Will Obey
They are going to make our streets safer and quieter.
But they are doing it by closing down whatever pubs or clubs that are a nuisance.
(i didn't think there were that many left).
Just the ones with those noisy, despised smokers standing outside, or the drinkers who insist on enjoying themselves.
Remember, you can enjoy yourselves for free swimming.
(65 and over)
Complain about this comment
"I must do better". Wake up Mr Brown, this is not a rehearsal. You spent years plotting and scheming to get the job and now it is time to face the stark truth: You just aren't up to it.
Complain about this comment
Eureka!
The world is round!
Complain about this comment
27. skynine
I think youve just outlined the 6 of the 7 REAL golden rules:
You forgot 7:
Increase pay, pensions and perks to an ever growing number public sector in order to create millions of beholden voters.
Complain about this comment
Brown is saying his"wisdom and experience" makes him the right man.
Is this the same Brown who, as chancellor, refused to listen to his advisers and devastated the pension funds (which should be sacrosant- the pensioners will have to live on it!)leaving nothing but chaos in his insatiable greed for (other peoples) money. Get rid of him he always has and is still desperate to bleed the country - WHATEVER thecost!!!
Complain about this comment
33. At 3:32pm on 21 Sep 2008, mrshamilton wrote:
What will you do, Mr Robinson, when you have finally personally rid the country of an elected Prime Minister?
Who elected him? Himself?
Complain about this comment
We had a boom now it seems we are having a bust. Now somewhere in the dim distant past I seem to remeber a chancellor saying he would eradicate this cycle. Clearly he didn't. This same chancellor is now a prime minister - perhaps the worst one this country has ever had. So if his party dosn't have the balls to remove him from power then the country most certainally will.
Complain about this comment
Nick I did warn you the other day that most of these clowns on these blogs dont want to hear what you think, they want you to say what they think.
Now I guess you must be getting a little tired of all this slagging off that their giving you but keep doing the job in the same unbiased way that you have done for years I have thought many times that you were biased in favour of the Tories but I suppose that goes with the job.
Anyway carry on saying what you think and nuts to any voters that try to influence you to write in support about anything you dont believe in.
I know that you will anyway but I just thought I would add a little support for free speech which seems to be dying the death on these blogs recently.
Complain about this comment
Nick - the BBC makes me laugh. I watched this appalling 'love in' with Andrew Marr and you, him and al the rest of the left-wing apologists are clinging to any scrap of positive news about Labour. Andrew Marr gave him such an easy ride you would have thought it was a party political broadcast!
Why didn't he ask-
1) Why when he inherited a booming economy in the black did he feel the need to raise taxes and destroy pension funds?
2) Why sell off the Gold Reserves at their lowest rate.
3) How much of the increased spending was wasted on building a Labour 'client state', i,e outreach co-ordinators, millions of people cynically trapped on benefits.
The worst Chancellor in history. Typical Labour!
Complain about this comment
Excruciatingly painful to watch!
How else can anyone describe the labour party conference and the array of two faced ministers extoling the virtues of Gordon Brown.
On Friday we had a world crisis. It hasn't ended but no one seems to have told them that.
Just take a look at the lot of them. Could anyone ever trust any of them again.
You have to be in real denial of the truth if you did.
They have no policies so they make one up on childcare that doesn't come into force for ten years. It will never happen and they'll be long gone by then.
This is the biggest insult to the British public I have ever known.
While they are playing around in this muppet show others across the world are trying to sort out a crisis that could affect us all.
It is interesting to note that Gordon Brown is too busy extoling his own virues he does not appear to have time to participate.
Why? Because he hasn't a clue and is waiting to be told what to do or say next.
It is even more sickening that he truly believes that he is the man who can save us all and expects us to believe it too.
As far as the rest of the cabinet are concerned they would be better off keeping a very low profile. Least said the better from all of them.
Come Monday morning it will be back to reality.
Complain about this comment
14pplyou say
Yawn. Can't Labour crawl off and die? We don't want them or their lies. JUST GO.
I wish that you would do just that, if you did I might forgive you, you naughty gentleman. [all errors deliberate]
Complain about this comment
Shameful reporting by the BBC.
But in summary, Brown and Balls created the FSA and it has proved a complete disaster - their solution? create an international FSA - idiotic.
Just like all socialists, when socialism is show to fail they cry goes up "it wasn't done properly - the solution is more not less". Just as idiotic...
If it doesn't work - ditch it and change your approach - stupid.
And that applies to interviewing and reporting just as much as political experiments.
Complain about this comment
Ugh - I'm sick to death of this idiot, the lies, debacles, arrogance, denial. Even just seeing his face. You're as useless a PM as you were a chancellor Brown. Start actually listening to the country and you'll realise how the public feel. Just go now.
Complain about this comment
Weve just traded in Trust me Tony for Believe me Brown
I must do better.... hes not wrong.
Complain about this comment
3 getridofgordonnow
This I guess is your opinion and you of course are entitled to it along with your fellow bloggers on here.
"Nobody in their right mind is listening to anything that Brown says anymore; everyone knows he's just lying, obfuscating, and trying to shirk his own responsibilities; we don't want him anymore."
The only problem I have with that is the use of the words, Nobody, Everyone, and We,I find it strange that you Tories write on here as if whatever you say is right.
How is it you believe that you have the right to speak on behalf of myself and millions of other people.
The trouble with you and your Tory[and i'm not a Tory] friends is that you seem to have an idea in your heads that what you say becomes gospel, well think again my friend millions of people totally disagree with you so please dont believe that we would elect you to vote on our behalf.
If you dont mind a little correction, you should have wrote.
"We Tories who we think are in our right mind aren't listening to anything that Brown says anymore; we all think he's just lying, obfuscating, and trying to shirk his own responsibilities; we don't want him anymore."
Now doesn't that make more sense. and from your point of view probably correct.
[All grammatical spelling and typing mistakes deliberate]
Complain about this comment
48 election now please, A very constructive piece, and with those words you consider youself to be the right type of person to vote in a new government do you, perhaps for a little reality check you should look in the mirror at your face, not quite such a pretty sight as you thought, time to grow up dont you think.
Complain about this comment
One more point - the way this goverment has treated the Ghurkas is reason alone to vote Tory!
Complain about this comment
48 and 51
Hey, Ho - off we go!
Complain about this comment
This seems eerily reminiscent of the early 1990s, with a discredited government limping on under the leadership of a deeply unpopular, out-of-his-depth Prime Minister, with the whole crew hanging on in the Micwaberish hope that "something will turn up". Nothing will turn up. The next election is already lost. If this lot had a shred of decency, they would go. Now.
Complain about this comment
Its fairly clear none of the neo-cons can offer an alternative..indeed..not one policy between them......Humdrum.......
Its a modern world, where Bn's... can move across nation in hours.
What we need, is a regulated body to control that! something only a labour government can progress to.
The tories are yesterdays news....redundant in idea and stitched lips on the economy...back pedalling bankers.
"Dave" and the notting-hill penny pinchers...
and of course a J..Archer....lord of the "RINGERS"//
Complain about this comment
It definitely does show a new Browner.A Browner with even less authority than he had a week ago.A Browner who is even more hated by the oppressed people of this country than he was a week ago.
Where is the required grilling he so richly deserves?
It makes me wonder what he would have to do to us(touching wood) to be held to account properly.
BTW, I despise the Liberals and the Tories just as much as Labour.
Complain about this comment
On my walk yesterday I trod in some brown stuff left by a careless dog-owner
Although an unpleasant task to clean up, it was far less distasteful - and far easier to remove all traces of - than the Brown stuff emanating from the Andrew Marr show this morning.
Complain about this comment
I think some posters have forgotten that the 2000 year old global economy, was until relatively recently, built on slave labour. You didnt have to take into consideration the economic will of China or India, until they became free.
Complain about this comment
The Andrew Marr interview of Gordon Brown was a new low for the BBC.
I am seriously thinking of getting rid of my TV.
Complain about this comment
So noting is going to happen again. Brown has sorted it with his mouth and hide again, its pathetic. We need some one with action.
I feel ashamed than I used to canvas for labor party; last conservative government seems much better.
Complain about this comment
Its funny how fickle the public are. During ten years of prosperity no-one seemed to think that Brown was incompetant, but all of a sudden he is because the economy is in a downturn. Im afraid the hard-truth is we need to grow up as voters and realise we live in the globalised world, and many things are out of our government's control. We moan and whinge when government interferes and say the state is inefficient and shouldnt interfere in the economy when things are going right. But then when things go wrong all of a sudden its the government's fault. You cant have it both ways. What do people imagine David Cameron will do to solve the economic crisis? Just because he looks younger, and is more charasmatic does not equate to good governance. People love the free market in the good times and hate it in the bad times.
Complain about this comment
51. Loser
Complain about this comment
Sorry I could resist it, an old navy joke, but so appropriate for today.
Standing on the deck of HMS Victory, Lord Nelson glanced up at a lookout high in the rigging and called, “Keep a keen eye out for Spanish sail, my lad. For today, I feel like a fight.” Soon, the lookout cried, “Sail ho, off the starboard bow!”
Nelson pointed his spyglass in the direction indicated, and - sure enough - there were two Spanish frigates off the starboard bow. Realizing that his ship was in for a tough fight, Lord Nelson turned to a young officer. “Ensign, fetch my red coat!”
A few minutes later, the Ensign returned with the coat. As he held it out for his Admiral to wear, he said, “Begging your pardon, My Lord, but why do you need your red coat?”
Nelson smiled grimly. “There’ll be much blood spilled today, Son. And some of it might well be mine. If it should happen that I am wounded, my red coat will hide the blood. Then, our own men will take heart from seeing their commander apparently untouched, and our enemies will fear my invincibility.”
The Ensign nodded, seeing at once the wisdom of the Admiral’s reasoning. The battle was long and difficult, but Nelson eventually won the day.
A few days later, a lookout shouted down, “Sail ho, off the port beam!”
Nelson pointed his spyglass in the direction indicated, and found himself staring at the entire Spanish Armada. Hundreds of ships bearing down on his lone ship like angels of death.
Anticipating his Admiral’s next order, the young Ensign said, “Shall I fetch your red coat, Sir?”
Nelson nodded. “Do that, Son. And while you’re at it, fetch me my brown trousers!”
We've been "trousered".
Complain about this comment
Come...on.....give us a policy......only one....
neo-cons......only one......just...one
O' you dont do policies...Hmmmmmmm
Ranting little rich kids..........come on......show....us...a .....policy.........
Complain about this comment
I have said it before and I will say it again.
Of course the world economic crisis is not Gordon Brown's fault. To blame him is grotesquely unfair.
To allow him to use it as a smokescreen behind which to hide his manifest failings as a prime minister would be equally grotesque.
By confusing these two issues, some posters are in serious danger of letting him off the hook.
Complain about this comment
The BBC News 24 report at 17.30 today headlined with the Labour conference, saying that Gordon Brown's leadership is still the subject of debate. But it is the BBC generating this, not least by the rather poor interview by Andrew Marr. Leadership is a tiresome non-issue, and it would be helpful if the BBC stopped playing this theme (which the media so enjoy), and focussed on the big political issues which listeners are much more interested in.
Complain about this comment
62:
Yes, the public are fickle, but I do not think that they have suddenly lurched into dislike of Labour just because the global economy has come apart at the seams. Labour was already unpopular, a fact which, ironically, made it much easier for GB to replace Blair. Many of Labour's policies - such as the Iraq war, plus the ten percent tax fiasco - were unpopular long before the recent economic crisis. There have also been serious worries over government competence, highlighted by data losses, for example.
More generally, the tendency has become one in which governments lose elections more often than oppositions win them. This is what got Blair elected in 1997 - public disatisfaction with the incumbents.
It is regrettable, but true, that, to get elected, David Cameron need do no more than smile and keep repeating "my name is not Brown".
Complain about this comment
the-bfc @61,
In the view of many, Brown has always been incompetent (His only two 'competent' actions were following Tory spending plans for the first two budgets and granting independence to the BoE.
BTW, What does the 'c' stand for? I assume your moniker is The Big Friendly C[something].
Based one the contents of your post I could make a further assumption - but it wouldn't be 'friendly'.
Complain about this comment
63:
Great gag. The Navy joke that I think best fits the current situation is this:
Officer, to sailor about to leave the RN:
"What are you going to be when you leave the Navy?"
Sailor:
"Happy"
In this situation, what are we going to be when GB leaves office?:
"Happier"
Complain about this comment
Two key points of interest in between the usual hot air. Firstly he used the words 'risk' and 'guarantee' in the same sentence i.e. we're in financial difficulty because city types were taking investment risks without guarantees. Sorry? That's the nature of risk...there are no guarantees...shows how much of a panic Brown is in now. Secondly he refused to answer Marr over the inevitable tax increases to pay for all the cash the Government are paying the banks to keep them solvent. Brown knows this will happpen but yet again he refuses to give us an honest answer. It's not boom and bust, it's bust, bust and bust again.
Complain about this comment
JonathanLmb @66 wrote:
"... it would be helpful if the BBC stopped playing this theme (which the media so enjoy), and focussed on the big political issues which listeners are much more interested in."
What other 'big political' issues are there?
Most people want to know:
1) When will Brown Go
2) Who will replace him?
3) When will there be a General Election.
There's obviously no pint discussing 'the economy' as everything was hunky-dory in the UK until that nasty 'global crisis' (which has nothing to do with St Gordo) erupted.
Complain about this comment
# 61 the-bfc
You say: "During ten years of prosperity no-one seemed to think that Brown was incompetent"
Actually, it was only Labour supporters that admired his "skill". The truth is, he inherited a stable economy from the Tories at a time the world economy was also growing. Nevertheless, Brown did not make hay while the sun was shining, but squandered his opportunities.
You are right that many of our problems now are due to the global situation, but Brown's policies have left us badly exposed - tax and waste, massive borrowing and selling our gold reserves at the wrong price have not helped.
Brown's protestations that it's the global economy would not sound so hollow if he had not previously tried to take personal credit for ending "boom and bust". Oddly, he doesn't mention that any more.
Complain about this comment
Nick
Of course Brown looked cheery. Andrew Marr is so sycophantically pro-Labour that Brown knew he would not face a single challenge or searching question, only the occasional Marr cry of Hosanna after a Gordon sound-bite.
Marr's broadcasts should count against Labour's Party political broadcast quota.
Complain about this comment
Labour Conference?
Same excrement, different twenty four hour period.
Complain about this comment
Good interview. Pointless hate on Brown.
Why are these people resigning when they should be working, serving their citizens in such a troubled time?
Pathetic, good riddance they resign, shows they've bottled it.
And yes it is a new global economy. The time of Romans was no way near as complicated as what is going on these days. Silly thing to even say they're similar. Really silly.
Complain about this comment
62 electionnow please. another great display of why no one should take notice of anything you say.
Complain about this comment
Relaxed?
You're not kidding. At the opening of the party conference, he looked positively delighted with himself. "What a week," he chortled, grinning from ear to ear.
Glad he's keeping someone happy. The rest of us look on, bemused.
Complain about this comment
64. derekbarker
Ok Derek, Im feeling altruistic tonight, its Sunday after all.
Heres a few:
Seek out and destroy waste all over the public sector.
Reduce the number of public sector staff, all equality and diversity staff to go at the end of the first month, then Id really get stuck in.
Insist on our full rebate from Brussels until they actually get a set of accounts signed off and the French relinquish a good proportion of their CAP payments.
Cut back on government advertising and PR, if you want to know what were up then log and read.
Massively reduce the roll of Quangos in every day life. And reduce the roll of the state in every day life. Where do you start with this one?
No long term detention, No ID cards, No support for US extraordinary rendition.
Slow down public sector pay so that it isnt more lucrative to work there than in the private sector. End final pension salary schemes.
Move the police onto the streets and the PCSOs into the office. What other business has the quality staff in the office form filling and trainees on the front line.
Build prisons that are essentially cells and teaching blocks, and not holiday camps; ban play stations and parties for inmates.
Make any devolved country pay for any benefit it wishes to grants its citizens from taxing its own citizens directly. (sorry Derek time to pay your own way)
Let Doctors run the NHS, not politicians.
Let teachers run the schools and not politicians.
Total reform of MPs expenses system
Purchase body armour for soldiers that works.
Cut taxes to business.
Reintroduce tax relief for private pensions.
Reduce borrowing in part.
Cut taxes to private citizens starting with poor families and pensioners.
Could go on for hours but gotta run the house keepers just rung the dinner gong!
Complain about this comment
Brown has said words similar to this for months. People have stopped listening to him. The average voter has enough on their plate to worry about - personal debt is up, the economic climate is shaky, people do not know if their jobs are secure or whether they will have enough money to heat their homes this winter.
Gordon Brown does not inspire confidence. He cannot triangulate himself like Blair (or Clinton during his time as US President - especially after his impeachment crisis) could and thus instill sympathy from the electorate.
Whatever happens next and whatever Brown does, he'll get a kicking at the ballot box. Third Term Governments always hit trouble and run out of steam - perhaps an electoral defeat in 2010 might actually 'save' Labour in the end, look at the Tories in 1992-1997 was that really a Parliament worth winning?
Complain about this comment
78:
A great list.
One of the big ones here is cutting bureaucracy, which has grown exponentially over the last decade. We could make huge savings, conservatively estimated by some commentators at GBP 20 billion annually, simply by culling pen-pushers. The Tories know this, but are not saying so because all they need to do to get elected is to keep reminding people that "we are not Labour". Nick Clegg has wised up to this one, too.
I would add, though, that it is imperative that something is done, urgently, to replace ageing power generating capacity, because there are at present no firm plans for the replacement of ageing nuclear reactors, half of which are slated to close during 2014-16.
Complain about this comment
My old Nanny always said everything goes in threes.
Mbeki resigned a few hours ago, and Olmert goes at 7:30 Israeli time tonight. So when will Gordon's glue become unstuck?
Complain about this comment
Interesting isn't it. Brown perks up because NuLabour can't find a canditate who is attractive enough to field against Brown within NLabour.That is judged a success, that is the horizon. Bit introspective and yet more of a turn-off.
Meanwhile the electorate feel totally disempowered and cannot see any end to the decline around them and have no say in events and do not appear to believe Brown has any solutions to offer. Big mistake not to get Browns succession endorsed at the polls it would appear. Browns biggest negative is he is seen as having been chummied in unopposed, and dont give the old rhubarb that anybody knew when the voted Blair in they would get Brown.
Currently Brown can't say he has done anything wrong or do much dramaticallly different in terms of the policy to date otherwise he damns himself. As policy to date, whether it was sound or not is percieved as unsound that leaves a bit of a task.
What economically is due to change in the next year or two that the electorate will feel is due to Browns policies. As there seems to be little vision and little in the way of policies coming out it is difficult to see. If Brown is seen as just coasting then any pick up will be seen as nothing to do with Brown.
I'm glad I don't have to try sort that one. Brown is the original Reluctant Zero.
Complain about this comment
#68 - MaxSceptic
Oh! I was thinking it was the British Constitution and trying to figure out what the other letter stood for.
Complain about this comment
I can't say I was that impressed with Andrew Marr - he could've been a lot tougher, he did try to reassert himself when Brown just denied everything, but he was no Paxman - Brown got away with blaming the rest of the world and spouting his usual 'we lifted 50 billion children out of poverty' line
Complain about this comment
summary of Brown's interview:
"you said boom and bust is gone" - "it is"
"but the economy is at 0% growth" - "it's not bust"
"unemployment is up" - "no it isn't"
"inflation is up" - "world's fault"
"nobody listened to my ideas to reform the global market" - despite having absolute control of one of the largest economies in the world, perhaps you should have said these ideas publicly, gordon and not doing the exact opposite of those ideas during that time may also have helped your case
Complain about this comment
"Gordon Brown does not inspire confidence. He cannot triangulate himself like Blair (or Clinton during his time as US President - especially after his impeachment crisis) could and thus instill sympathy from the electorate"
This is the problem. People are happy if the guy seems charismatic enough without actually bothering if they actually can.
Ever since TV, the requirement for what we think need in a leader has gone the wrong way.
Complain about this comment
This is pretty much like any other Labour day.
The rebelion is being crushed, the polls are being ignored, the party continues to congratulate itself, ministers are even more detached from reality and Gordon is still there.
Well, you can't say that isn't progress.
Next, they'll be wondering how they lost the upcoming by-election, shock horror, it must be someone elses fault.
Silly electorate, oh well, carry on regardless.
Complain about this comment
Remember what Harry S Truman said:
'It's a recession when your neighbour loses his job; it's a depression when you lose your job'
And, to paraphrase Reagan in later years, 'it's the start of a recovery when Brown loses his'
Complain about this comment
86.hiddenranbir - any leader must have a degree of charisma, and it stretches way back before tv - more like back to when democracy began in the late 19th century
blair was somewhat excessive on the personality, but the person must be able to inspire confidence in the people
it's all very well being good at a job - say you had a manager who was incredibly good with the figures, marketing, budgets etc - however he was the least likeable bloke in the world, as a result staff hated him and staff turnover was incredibly high, and therefore production and revenue suffered - the democratic system has its flaws and unfortunately you have to take the popularity aspect with it
that said, i'm getting fed up of people saying Brown is only hated for his lack of charisma and that he has 'substance' - i can disagree with plenty of the government's policies within the last year, but oh no - i just dislike him because he's not personable..
Complain about this comment
I was astonished to hear GB say that money was being put to provide free nursery places for 2 year olds. I know the cabinet met recently in Birmingham to see what was on peoples' minds, but I must admit that for all the conversations I've had in Birmingham, the need for free places in nurseries for 2 year olds didn't come up. I may just be mixing in the wrong circles of course, but I do suspect that this plan is yet another long term project of GB's that has little to do with current need and is more to do with finding something popular to do. No doubt we will hear how this project is getting behind in meeting its targets of implementation as the years drag by. Perhaps the government should find the money to give pretty fluffy bunnies to all one year olds - or is that being said at this moment in conference? Indeed, have they already done it?
Complain about this comment
If Gordon thinks there won't be an inquest on the economy (with derivatives still apparently a ticking bomb) then Gordon is further gone than many thought. That was an epic disaster that we got away with.
A week or two back it was "listening Gordon" now we have "New Gordon". Alistair Campbell must be the brains behind the slick repackaging.
The trouble is even Gordon does not believe it.
There are no big ideas and nobody seems sure if this is New Labour or Old Labour or Mid-Labour.
The Scots will probably vote for independence in 2010 so thats a chunk of safe seats and ... err.. Gordon gone.
The days of the 10p tax change look like an idyllic dream now! Iraq.
Its not a case of looking for targets is what do you have time for ...
Miliband looks as though he will become leader by default and I am sure he will write a nice essay about it but in practice will he be even worse than Gordon.
Complain about this comment
Carrots
1/cuts/ no change
2/ create mass unemployment/ no change
3/ ignite the EU row again/no change
4/stop PR re-somking/no change
5/no policies/no change
6/let the terrorist act/no change
7/reduce pay/ cut pensions/ no change
8/remember Brixton/ no change
9/prisoners no human rights/ no change
10/separate the union/ no change
11/let no one challenge the doctors/ no change
12/close state schooling/ no change
13/give more money to MP's/ no change
14/behind with the news/ no change
15/give the money men more/ no change
16/pension relief/ not alignment/ no change
17/cuts again/ no change
18/private citizens?/ what?/no change
Wow! thatchers little babies indeed! cuts....cuts...some more cuts....no ploicies....and finally cuts.......
Complain about this comment
So now we are to have the Home Secretary going after men who use prostitutes. She must have read my comments on your blog about Shakespeare and money and 'pimps and whores'. I wish that they would stop stealing my ideas.
As for Gordon, he does seem more confident. So confident that I think that he may actually win the next general election. There is however, a problem because if labour does somehow recover and win then I think that Gordon has to tell us how long he will serve for. Remember, our lovely boy Tony had to say that he would serve a full term. Now then Gordon, are you just so confident that you too will tell us that you will serve a full term, or will you resign, both the leadership and your seat so that you can do exactly the same as I'm a striaght sort of guy, Tony.
As for Prescott is he actually going to satnd at the next election or can we expect him to go the House of Lords.
They really are so finished.
Complain about this comment
I am truly fed up with the BBC. On the day that the most in depth poll shows that Labour are to be totally wiped out across the country not a mention. Given the Labour conference is on I find this hard to understand as it has to rate as top news.
However Gordon is promoted as he will do better and also gets a nice little cuddle from Mr Marr in an interview which was the equivilant of being savaged by a half dead hamster.
This is an utter national disgrace because if it were the other way round and the Tories were in that position it would be front page every day (and you did in 1997)
Disgraceful....
Sadly I note even you Nick are going along with this utter charade.
Complain about this comment
Gordon Brown is a rare personality type I know very well, because it’s a personality type I share, along with other characters like Steve Jobs and Baroness Scone. Watching some of the Prime Minister’s mistakes and unplanned difficulties is like a flashback. Now, I’ve got through that reality wall and watching the Prime Minister go through the same process is both sobering and illuminating. It may not be the greatest show on earth but, for now, I’m generally pleased with what’s unfolding.
The Prime Minister came out too strong and allowed nitpicks to derail him, which lead to both the incredible expansion and collapse of headline popularity, but the Prime Minister is savvy or well advised enough to have grasped these issues quite rapidly. From his earlier speeches and other comment I’m persuaded his sense of vision and society is credible, and as he’s developing confidence and showmanship, so more of this narrative will develop and connect with people.
I commented that this recession was a mere blip and the global economic situation was doable. After the chaos and despair of the past few weeks has show how little some folks understand economics, and how little character they have, it’s no surprise the Prime Minister is looking pleased. Simply, by delivering on the issues and being unflappable he’ll ship a sound product and do an endrun of the flim-flam. You wanted change? Nothing sells like a demonstration.
I’ll buy that for a dollar!
Complain about this comment
#90 - artisticsocrates
No, that one won't get put on the back burner. It will be funded from the Lottery like so many other 'good causes' the Treasury should have paid for. Let's hope the CBSO, unlike the banks, keeps a good balance sheet because there won't be money to bail them out. It will all have been nicked to buy Gordon's next election triumph.
Complain about this comment
The truth is that the effects of the credit crunch are becoming more personal by the day for millions. Human nature wants to apportion blame and the only outlet is the government: goodbye, Gordon. Notwithstanding that no one body/organisation/person in all this is to blame, Labour will have to pay.
Complain about this comment
Chuck E Hogwash @95,
The two key 'personality traits' you share with Brown are
1) delusion
2) mantra-like repetition of untruths in the hope that by such repetition they will, somehow, become truths (e.g. "No more boom and bust").
Do you also bite your nails?
Complain about this comment
Maybe Gordon was cheery because yet again he wasn't going to face the sort of questions the public want asking?
Maybe it was also the fact that the Labour Party can't square the circle of what to do with him and are caught in a whirlwind of indecision.
They know he's unpopular with the puplic, as is the Labour party, but if they replace him, would the public demand a general election (which Labour would lose)? Is there anyone on the Labour side of the commons with the charisma and lack of political baggage that could be turn the fortunes of the party around before becoming leader? Could such a trick ever be accomplished?
Would Gordon ever sanction such a strategy? Would the cabinet go along with it?
So many variables to consider, but the main one is how poorly traditional Labour supporters think of the party. How do you get them back on board without looking old-labour and bankrupting the system?
Would a change of image be a cheap way of accomplishing that?
Could traditional Labour voters be fooled so easily?
So many questions, so few obvious answers...
Complain about this comment
derek
Wise up.
People who don't appreciate the last decade aren't necessarily advocating a return to the previous decade or another century.
If you seriously believe that the Labour adminsitration has managed YOUR tax money as well as it could have been managed, you should read a few more self-help books about managing money.
Brown has allowed a huge credit-based boom. He could have stopped it. It's not the fault of global changes that the UK's economy was built on a bubble of loans.
If you really believe that all children, from age 2, should be confined to state-sponsored nurseries then there is no hope for a future generation.
I would never say that public employment is bad and private emloyment is good. But I would add the qualifiers "productive and useful" before each category.
There is plenty of waste in private companies (plcs). But much of the dead wood is devoted to trying to interpret bloody silly regulations.
If a company could not take out 2-3 percent of cost, when under commercial pressure, their management deserves to be sacked.
This Government assumes that all spending is an "investment" and therefore there is never a need to trim its spend - OUR money - to meet the realities.
That's the beef!
Governments don't have money. They use OUR money.
That's true of any political set-up.
I dislike unbridled capitalism as much as communism, because neither delivers for the wider population.
Quite happy to see some smoother distribution of wealth. But only if the people benefiting make a bit of effort to contribute their share.
Don't see why I should buy an expensive home for Ed Balls and Yvette Cooper.
Complain about this comment
92. derekbarker
Interesting critique of my stance Derek.
Lets try your policies.
Current situation is thus:
Revenue to the government is down and dropping fast, borrowing is rising. Spending on public services is rising and its time to start paying the rent for all the hospitals amd schools that the private sector have built for you.
What are you going to do.
Oh yes and just out of mild interest, how does making Scotland pay for the extra benefits it gets equate to splitting the union.
Do we really have a situation of subsidise us or were leaving. Sounds a bit churlish to me.
Complain about this comment
The thing that irritates me about these 'I will do better' and 'we need to listen/engage more with the people' comments is that they are simply lip-service, motivated by a desire to remain in office.
Labour have said this for 11 years, and the Tories did it before them. The British public are sick to the back teeth of self-serving politicians, and it is this fact that underpins all the voter apathy and frankly, loathing, that exists today.
The day a minister stands up and apologetically admits to making mistakes without excuses, or the ubiquitous line 'we have learned lessons..', will be the day we turn the corner, and a modicum of respect and trust in politicians will return.
Dont hold your breath though!
Complain about this comment
100. fairlyopenmind
Derek, sadly doesnt have to wise up, he simply holds out his hand and Brown sends truck loads of cash over the border.
Complain about this comment
I know scattergun bullshit when I see it. It's pretty much why I ignore most of the dreg around here, and why you're taking notes behind the smirk. Say it ain't so.
Complain about this comment
102. Saint_Ken
Appologies from government you dont get
When the PAC took a look at how the Home Office had managed to waste 29 million of taxpayers' money on thinking about building a centre to hold asylum seekers. ( The centre never got built) The Home Office's civil servants decided that they had to hire outside consultants to advise on how the money allocated for the project could best be spent.
Youd think that was what civil servants were paid to do. But these days, their only real responsibility seems to be to decide how many outside consultants they will hire. On this particular project, more than 7 million pounds - almost a quarter of the total budget spent - went straight into the pockets of consultants.
The PAC found that the whole project "embodied a lack of foresight, poor business planning, and a startling absence of common sense."
Those brilliant consultants - and some of them were paid more than 15,000 per month - were supposed to at least make sure the Home Office did not do something obviously stupid, such as signing a contract commissioning builders to construct the centre before planning permission had been obtained. They failed. So the Home Office had to pay out a further 7.9 million in "termination fees" to the building companies when the centre was cancelled.
You might think the PAC's criticism would cause ministers or at least officials, to hang their heads in shame. But no the Home Office said the whole episode had produced an "overall positive impact for the public", because "officials have learned important lessons. Well Yes a 29 million pound lesson
Thats what you get from NU Labour, best get used to it.
Complain about this comment
#100
fairlyopenmind
Yes, there could be more effective or efficiency measures in the private sector.
Again it good that we agree, that the public sector is vital to our shared society.
The beef remark...is more of a bare rib...remark.. no meet on the bones...asset stripping..in short
Only by committing to the distribution of wealth....can you have a real programme, that delivers to end poverty....so ..yes again we agree...tax must not let those with the most escape their duty.
I dont see why anyone should buy an MP a home.....there maybe away to move forward on MP's accommodation...
Complain about this comment
Taking on big business and markets isn't easy, and one reason why things have unfolded as they have. That's the difference bwteen just reading some book and being in the hotseat. If some of the mouths around here actually had to perform they'd learn that lesson fast enough on their own. You try taking on a bigger power or telling a crowd they can't have their sweeties, and see how far you get.
The thing some folks don't get is the balance between goals and outcomes, and how managing the process takes an amount of skill, wisdom, and patience. Sometimes, you just have to wait until the the time is right. Now people have seen how these extremes lead to disaster, developing the sweet spot has become practicable.
It's a bit of cliche but what is the sound of one hand clapping? We don't exist in the past or the future. We exist in there here and now. As one flows into the other, how we act and react changes us and the world be live in. Once you grok that and develop some perspective things aren't that big a deal anymore. Stuff happens. Deal with it. More importantly, deal with yourself.
Complain about this comment
95 - that personality type being arrogant, tight-fisted and stubborn?
that's some very good trolling tho +9
Complain about this comment
So now a minister comes out and says what is blindingly obvious - the government knew there was a housing bubble. The government also knew that they had set up the BoE with a fixed formula to work within on interest rates which stopped them taking housing into account. That was under government directive.
But the government felt, as is repeatedly the case with this government, it was not their job to intervene in the markets, even though there is no such thing as a free market. As usual with this government it is always somebody elses job to do something even when they cannot specify the somebody.
Basically having set a simplistic control mechanism in place at the BoE it was left to run knowing full well it was an unsound mechanism. This is nothing more than abdication of the duty to govern by a government.
Meanwhile bankers, hooked into a debt growth model simply keep pushing up the debt volume as collapse or stall in the market was unattractive. That could always happen in the future, keep pushing the volume in the meantime.
Banks, having run out of sound consumers to lend were left with only debt growth available by hooking in unsound borrowers, who are probably less sophisticated than sound borrowers, and critically these borrowers trusted historical price growth and the government to keep the ecomony level - Not unreasonable when Brown is forever trumpeting what a clever fellow he is and never cautions on housing. With a market very sensitive to small changes in demand like housing this is disasterous.
And Brown stands up and says he is the man to take us forward. What is incomprehensible is that even at this stage members of this government from the top down still defend the decisions, or more correctly, the lack of decisions taken. Are they seriously suggesting that they would take the same course in hindsight and end up where we are.
This lack of recognition of the problems does not help.
Complain about this comment
#101
Carrots
There is a global down turn....its not a conspiracy....its there....and was fuelled by the usa.....deregulations and careless lending.
Complain about this comment
Re Post 107
- taking on big business and markets isnt easy.....
No quite, but that is the job isnt it. If the only solution is to bend which ever way the wind blows then any road will take you there.
Complain about this comment
when will he relise he is not up to the job and goi PLEASE
Complain about this comment
I think Nick Robinson is talking more about Gordon Brown's demise than anyone. Anyone would think he wants him to go.
Complain about this comment
Charles_E_Hogwash @104,
I am so glad (honoured?) that you chose not to ignore my dreg.
I do believe that I've managed to coax a rise out of you. Ripples of the calm surface of you sen-like self?
On second thoughts: No.
Because under the pretentious and prolix blanket of nonsense that you continuously spout, it is obvious that you are - and always have been - just as scared and vulnerable as the rest of the Nu Lab supporters scuttling about on the decks of the sinking ship Brown.
Not far to swim: maybe a decade. Maybe two.
Complain about this comment
Maybe some of the people with the biggest gripe, live in the SE..maybe they have spent alot of time and even some money on their home..maybe..giving the latest, economic situation..their home value has decreased not quite double the price it was ..say..six months ago..maybe..just maybe..they want to "BLAME" someone for the drop in their house price....
You cann't please all of the people all of the time......
Complain about this comment
The plus side is that character type is good at design, markets, spontaneity, and building teams. If you look at Apple, the RPSB, and renaissance Japan you'll see that sort of management in action. It's not for everyone but you can't argue with the success. Folks can smack their head against a concrete wall or just accept it. I recommend accepting it.
As big business got arrogant and folks with credit cards got greedy, the whole pile of nonsense built up and up until the bubble burst. Power, status, and wealth can get peoples attention, and when it has traction the market in dorks tends to grow in value. Most of the raving is just the same ego throwing a snit. Well, tough. Things have changed and it's time for folks with better goals in mind to step up a gear.
While the social and economic wave continues to roll forward, the situation and people will change accordingly. Now the system is broken, this is the precise time to develop better policy and allegiances. The same principle is found in basic military training: do you break someone to ruin them, or break them to make them? With that in mind it's a no-brainer for me to lean towards Labour.
Complain about this comment
There are 2 questions we need to ask ourselves at this time:
1. Is Brown 'the best man' to lead?
Quite simply, no. Brown is not a leader. A leader has charisma, gives people confidence, encourages debate, finds a consensus, uses the talents around him and gives credit to others. Brown just can't do it. He's a control freak, and by definition a control freak is a dictator, not a leader. Blair was a leader, Cameron is and Clegg is, but Brown, unfortunately, is not, and at this time we need someone who can pull the country together.
Labour need to be bold: there MUST be a labour MP who is a natural leader, surely, who could take over. They don't need to be a financial wizard - there are thousands of civil servants and advisers to use to come up with the way forward. Brown froze the civil servants out of the policy advice loop - bring them back into it.
2. Have Labour managed our finances well?
Over the years that Brown has been chancellor/PM, government spend as a %age of GDP has gone up from 18% to over 22%. So, taxes have increased by over 20%. But, during this time, child poverty has increased, old age poverty has increased, school attainment has remained stagnant, standards of living, particularly amongst the poorest sectors of the population, have done down. The NHS is better, drug treatment is better, but dentistry is worse.
All told, the 20% increase in government money has not been well spent. And that 4% of GDP that goes in government spending rather than being used to expand the economy, means that we are less able to cope with a recession than we would otherwise have been.
I don't care which party wins the next election, but we must have a confident, charismatic, positive leader, we must make better use of the money taken in tax, we must reduce child poverty, and, in time, we must reduce the level of government to put wealth back in the economy again for all.
Complain about this comment
I let most of your comment slide by, and replying just gives you another excuse to blow up all over the place. This betrays some level of immaturity on your part and doesn't do anything other than confirm everything I've said.
Gordon Brown is the calm in the storm and more than happy to see the Tories and their little helpers blow off. By remaining calm you have a more clear perspective, and the blowing off just serves to undermine the credibility of his less enlightened opponents. It's a confidence and charisma thing, dear.
The Prime Minister has been locked up in the treasury for a few years, so it's no surprise he lost touch with himself. But, as he steps more into the siutation, I'm sure, that original spark of promise will continue to develop. Some may disagree or dislike that but there's nothing they can do, and their own jealousy just weakens them further.
Complain about this comment
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. The media obssessed by personality and disgruntled New Labour Blairites.
Every news report, every political discussion is talking about Gordon Brown. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy of behind the scenes Westminister gossip with almost no one on the record to journalists. Journalists then faithfully report these comments as "truth", then they report the reaction, the reaction of a cabinet minister and it goes on.
It's journalists that want a leadership election. A frenzy of stories to increase their ego. Journalism has already destroyed all conference debate to the point at which legitimate debate becomes a "split". Now they are going to reduce parliamentary politics to the simplistic ideas of a presidential personality contest.
The BBC used to have serious investigative journalism and serious political journalists. We are now left to 2 minutes on the leadership rumour mill, telling us that this or that speech is a code for a challenge and finally some clever sign-off.
Dark and depressing days for political journalism.
Complain about this comment
#117
jim, no need to go to question two after question one.
Personalities are for film stars.....you need to raise your game above the Blair years.
Politics has re-turned..great.. let the debate rage....
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Charles_E_Hardwidge has points, tbh.
Complain about this comment
110. derekbarker
That not news Derek. we all know that and its certainly not a reply to 101.
Go on how do we get out of the mess we are in?
Give us your policies:
Complain about this comment
95. Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
Gordon Brown is a rare personality type I know very well, because it?s a personality type I share
Why do you use this forum as a confessional or a psychiatrist's couch? This is the second posting in which you sadly admit to this disorder. Nobody else is slandering you like this, it is called self abasement.
Complain about this comment
98. MaxSceptic.
You missed out tedious and windy.
Complain about this comment
Nick, isn't it more honest to say that Gordon Brown doubled the 10p tax rate, not abolished it?
Complain about this comment
118
Gordon Brown is the calm in the storm and more than happy to see the Tories and their little helpers blow off.
Actually, old boy, the smell is coming from Gordon Brown and his cabinet!
Complain about this comment
118. At 10:32pm on 21 Sep 2008, Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
Gordon Brown is the calm in the storm and more than happy to see the Tories and their little helpers blow off.
The Prime Minister has been locked up in the treasury for a few years, so it's no surprise he lost touch with himself. But, as he steps more into the siutation, I'm sure, that original spark of promise will continue to develop. Some may disagree or dislike that but there's nothing they can do, and their own jealousy just weakens them further.
He may be calm, but David Cameron is calm. The same can't be said for Nick Clegg however.
Lost touch with himself? He appears to have lost touch with the voters. Perhaps he should have been more pro-active. He is reacting to criticism, yet he should have been in a position to deal with this beforehand.
Charles, you have to look at realities. We had similar arguments at the end of the last Tory Government, and yes, a change was sorely needed. People criticised Blair for lack of experience, yet he proved himself.
People always look at the negatives of a Government, regardless what they have achieved.
People see Iraq, Afghanistan, increased immigration, destroyed pensions (they would have been hit but his taxes never helped), an Olympics with out of control costs, ID cards at whatever cost, no vote on Europe, the Armed Forces suffering in poor accommodation, PFI debt at goodness knows what rate, Northern Rock and the complete disaster that is devolution.
We now have open conflict within the Labour Party. OK, the rebels are few but the majority of them are not the usual suspects. Milliband, despite his assurances, is after Gordon's job, albeit I think after the next election.
One of the biggest problems having spoken to people across the UK (something I do in my job) is that they feel ignored.
The Lib Dems are seeing their support declining rather rapidly. Where are their votes going? Towards the Tories most likely.
Gordon Brown will probably survive, simply because there is no one who can replace him. So the election is probably going to be left until the last minute, in the hope that things can get better.
The Conference will be a triumph for him. But only because it will be stage managed.
Complain about this comment
41. At 4:07pm on 21 Sep 2008, Phoenixarisen wrote:
33. At 3:32pm on 21 Sep 2008, mrshamilton wrote:
What will you do, Mr Robinson, when you have finally personally rid the country of an elected Prime Minister?
Who elected him? Himself?
His constituents? Don't you understand how we do things in this country?
Nobody voted for Mr Robinson to be the leader of the opposition, yet that's who he is trying to be.
Complain about this comment
95. Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
Gordon Brown is a rare personality type I know very well, because it?s a personality type I share
Why do you use this forum as a confessional ? This is the second posting in which you sadly admit to this similarity. I have rewritten the very frank earlier posting on #125. Trust this passes the moderators.
Complain about this comment
Wow Derek you really are a ranter. First you say the Tories have no policies and then you ream of 18.
I know fiction is the main plank of your comments but please at least try to be consistent.
Now I know you dont deal with facts so I will provide you with two, for now!
Wealth gap widest in 40 years
Yep Downing St. has admitted that they knew about the Housing Bubble but they decided to run with it!
I feel sure I don't need to advocate why. That has been done on this blog by various people on many occasions.
Ministers knew of housing bubble
Just one question - Where have you been for the last 11 years, or is it that you are politically NUMB. A charge that you levelled at me recently!
Complain about this comment
130. mrshamilton
Nobody voted for Mr Robinson to be the leader of the opposition, yet that's who he is trying to be.
By the same token, is Andrew Marr trying to wiggle into the cabinet and perhaps replace an existing member?
Complain about this comment
#132
Look, rolly-polly...get real.
Come out of your thin bubble..and stop trying to convince people with your irrelevent links'
A person who packs beans in a supermarket is as likely to be a home-owner as their local GP.
The housing market needs affordable homes,
not just to buy but to rent....yes
Again you choose the wrong argument
Flip Flop....stand steady..if you cant stand steady stand still......
Complain about this comment
From an Iron Chancellor to a dithering Prime Minister, always absent when things went awry when Tony Blair was Prime Minister, what ever happened overnight?
An iron Chancellor would fetter the pension fund, ruin the kitty and flog the gold would he?
This country is running on empty, no pension fund, nothing in the kitty and less gold reserve than when Labour came to power and they get a £1m donation... how long will that last with a Prime Minister who used to be a prudent Chancellor...
... how about putting it in the pension fund that you that you ruined Gordon?
Only way GB can do better is to stop acting like Mr Bean and get some decent folks in the cabinet for they are very good indeed - at reading from scripts and nothing else, they are just 'nodders' who must obey and dare not disagree...
... they don't even come up to your dithering standards the idiots who want you out can't see further than their noses.
If GB thinks he's the right man for the job then why not let us decide - he's running scared!
He's right there ain't no one better.
Complain about this comment
If you are happy with the fact the UK is in a no-win war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Happy with bubble economics.
Happy with a recession which will be arbitary in where and who it hits, and will only hit some sectors (probably damaging them long term).
Happy with the over reliance of the UK economy on the financial sector.
Happy with the erosion of civil liberties.
Happy with the bending of the law when it suits business and government.
Then you have the government you want and it is all steady as she goes, and the right man is leading.
And the only response would appear to get personal if anybody says they do not agree with the policies that generated these outcomes.
However most people seem to have at least some concern on these issues and that the publics views are repeatedly ignored.
It is fit that when policies are judged failing that questions are asked by anybody, including the media, that is the process.
UK governments are not elected by PR and the next government will be decided by a relatively small number of floating voters in key marginal seats. Opinion is only important if you live in one of those locations.
Complain about this comment
134# derekbarker
Oh dear it looks like I forgot to add Empty Rhetoric to my list of your qualities!
One way that families can escape poverty is by providing affordable nursery provision so they can provide for their families and escape the so called Stay at home culture.
Yesterday Brown revealed free childcare plan
I don’t know about you but my first thought was, were are they going to get the money, GB PLC is brassic. Then I read further…
Ha…
Aides were stressing that the extra childcare places were an aspiration rather than a firm policy commitment.
Ah well another 4 days left.
Can anybody out there please tell me what 4 x 0 = ?
Oh and by the way Derek do you not think that NuLabour turning a blind eye to the Housing Bubble pushed housing away, ever increasingly, from those people that could least afford it for example from a person who packs beans in a supermarket.
You also compared the money paid to GPs. Beggar me was that not those NuLabour numpties that oversaw that abortion. Surely they should have been helping the bean packer you mention as well. Or is that too much to ask for?
But there again NuLabour = Empty Rhetoric. I am sure that you must feel at home with them.
Complain about this comment
136 glanafon
And the only response would appear to get personal if anybody says they do not agree with the policies that generated these outcomes.
Yes, you are correct glanafon. They also like to refer postings to the mdoerators and get them removed. They cannot accept free speech.
Complain about this comment
93 - (TAG) wrote:
"So now we are to have the Home Secretary going after men who use prostitutes."
It's because all prostitutes are Tories. There are Labour ones of course but they are personal well being consultants. And, while we are on the subject, one doesn't 'use' them. It's the ones who don't get paid that are being 'used'.
Complain about this comment
134# derekbarker
Oh by the way Derek I put my money were my mouth is, metaphorically speaking.
Yesterday I popped into Manchester to support the people who wanted our troops out of Iraq.
In 2003 I also joined in the 'Not In My Name' march in London.
In that year, after many years of actively supporting Labour I cancelled my membership.
In 2010 I will be lending my vote to the Tories - I will be voting tactically as I suspect many other people will be. This is the first time I have ever voted anything other than Labour at a GE.
I dont know what you think Derek, but I believe we should be spending money on lifting children out of poverty and not on a war many thousands of miles away.
Complain about this comment
#137
Roll-on-2010
I dont mind you stipulating from the left, in fact...too borrow a phrase...I LIKE THAT!
Roll, rather than attack all things..why not add some spice.... let us know what..you think should happen on housing,poverty,childcare.
Society has a broad base..its OK to differ..
Its easy to attack.....its probably harder to come up with workable solutions.
Complain about this comment
#140
I dont agree with the war either....
You cant change what you want from the outside, you must fight for change within...yes
All the things you outline in your thread, do you believe the tories will meet your views.
I know you will be aware of the very fragile world of today....can you imagine a tory government at the helm....all the things you want to see in society would be finished under a tory government....
Hey.. my friend..lets see what developes
Complain about this comment
141# derekbarker
Derek one thing that really gets my back up is the pigeon holing that people use to stereotype other people.
It is very easy you to call me left when in fact I am not. I just believe in the basic principals of fairness for all. I think the list below is a starting point!
1 Social justice
2 Strong community and strong values
3 Reward for hard work
4 Decency
5 Rights matched by responsibilities
Can anybody in their right mind say that this is what they have achieved in 11 years of government?
You recently mocked my use of the term Westmidden.
I believe we need to seriously look, and change, the way we are governed. That is the pivotal point that will, IMO, underwrite the basis of a decent and fairer society.
What we have had over the last 30 or so years is cr*p and IMO unsustainable. In this century and the impending new world order, we need to refresh Britain. NuLabour are not the answer in fact they are part of the problem.
Complain about this comment
142# derekbarker
Please note I am lending my vote to the Tories it does not for one minute mean I remotely believe in them.
I am looking beyond 2010.
Complain about this comment
I have to say that I think the "constant" coverage about labour leadership speculation is irrelevant and unnecessary. Clearly we are in "difficult times" and changing leaders will distract the government from the financial crisis.
I think the entry by Nick Robinson is biased and is evidently criticising Gordon Brown, that's not a revelation as the BBC appear to be doing that a lot over the past few weeks at every opportunity which I think is taking our focus off of the most important issues.
I think he should be left to get on with the job and his leadership will be judged at the next general election, it is clear that a lot of people are rebelling against the government and this is evident from the polls but I think they are judging the government on current issues such as energy and food prices which is understandable but the real test for Labour is at the next general election, people should judge them on their policies. It is amazing sitting here reading articles that want Brown out but they don't have any other solution, 10 year as a successful Chancellor is obviously necessary in relation to the financial issues we are facing at the moment. I can't think of anyone else who is in relative comparison to Brown's experience and who can do any better given the circumstances.
Incase anyone seizes the opportunity to criticise my anticipated support for Brown which is not intended, I am not of voting age so have no political preference at the moment, all I have is the knowledge of the "crisis" we are in and the view that we should let the government get on with what they were elected there in the first place to do.
Complain about this comment
Neil, you've got a lot of comment. It's too much to quote so I'll just skip that and cut to the chase.
Instead of slagging the Prime Minister off, some folks might want to empty their cup and listen to what the guy says: "Getting on with it", "Taking the rough with the smooth", "Doing whatever it takes." This isn't rocket science and you can get books on it. Instead of tripping over our own funk we can let go. Hence, the title and book: Zen Mind, Beginners Mind.
People may feel put down and ignored. This is a mixture of many external and internal things: big business with its management's right to manage, the media with it's spaghetti throwing without responsibility, and our own minds full of Eastender and petty rivalries. It is said that hell is other people. This is true to some extent but by being deluded we bring a lot of it on ourselves.
Folks can rant and rave, stamp their feet, and run around in circles but it just attacks funk with funk, the problem gets bigger and bigger, and they end up tearing themselves to pieces. The internal market of the mind is the same as the financial markets. So, by doing different ourselves we can effect change in ourselves, and what goes around. Instead of project chaos and fear, we project order and harmony. As we change our perception and the world around us changes.
Complain about this comment
re: 50 grandantidote
no.
This is a public forum, so by definition every single posting relates to "in my opinion" so there's no need to state "in my opinion" anywhere/everywhere because it's just a public debate, it's not a legal document.
Anyway, I stand by my thought that anyone who believes brown when he said that having a global economy is a brand new thing that's only suddenly magically occurred in the last few weeks is clearly not in their right mind.
Complain about this comment
re: 55 derekbarker
"What we need, is a regulated body to control that! something only a labour government can progress to."
Labour have been in charge for 11 years. Brown has personally been responsible for the regulatory framework (or lack of it) for all those years. How can you honestly say with a straight face that labour are the right people to regulate the system when they've got a proven track record of total failure on this point for 11 years?
Complain about this comment
Hear, hear! door has locked bolted after horse.
Complain about this comment
The truth of the financial bale out by Britain and America will only become apparent over the next year or so. When your taxes start to rise, when public services are cut, when the far right and fascists continue their inexhoriable rise, when riots break out, then you will understand that what Darling and Brown are doing. They are a disgrace, the banks must have been allowed to fail, they should have been hammered.
They have made the same mistakes that governments made in the late twenties, these stupid people have messed up big time. History is repeating itself, not exactly the same but this s just so awful what they are doing.
Taxes must rise, but personal tax allowances for the low paid must take them out of paying tax altogether. Income tax and national insurance must be merged. Social services must be formally merged with the NHS, there must never be any more sell off of the NHS assets, all hospital closures must be stopped. No more Post Office closures.
We are saddling our children and grandchildren with huge debts, this is so wrong. I want the individuals who have allowed the banking system to collapse to be prosecuted. They are guilty and there must be no hiding place.
Complain about this comment
re: 150 T A Griffin (TAG)
I think there was a limit to what Brown/Darling could have done following the collapse; I actually think they did the right thing by allowing the merger of HBOS/Lloyds to go ahead.
There's a clear distinction that needs to be drawn between what was done prior to the collapse (ie the causes of it, and how that could have been prevented), and what needed to be done after the collapse.
Ideally that collapse shouldn't have been allowed to happen in the first place (ie Brown should have regulated the system properly).
But, given that it did all collapse, then you have to work out what's the best thing to do to limit the damage to the overall economy. For that I think allowing the merger was the right thing, because if that didn't happen then HBOS would have gone under and that would have made the whole situation turn from a crisis into a catastrophe as it would have led to a run on all the high street banks.
Punishing the banks will be difficult, because there was nothing in law which stopped them from doing what they were doing (again, that's something which Brown failed on regarding regulation). So you can't take them to court if they didn't technically break any laws.
You also can't punish them financially because they've already done that themselves and they have no money left (ie HBOS was bought on the cheap because their figures were awful) and even if you did punish the new merged bank for HBOS' mistakes then it'd only hurt the ordinary account holder in the end (eg they'd just charge people to have a standard current account, and they'd increase their credit card rates etc).
From a practical point of view I think there's really no options open regarding punishment other than firing the directors and taking away any golden goodbyes they may have got.
It's a case for the well known answer to the question "What would you have done to clean up this mess?", which is "I wouldn't have gotten myself into this mess in the first place because I'm not that stupid"
I agree with all your sentiments whole-heartedly, but from a practical point of view I think all we can really do is try and get the politicians to learn from their mistakes and get them to put laws in place to avoid it happening again (and stop the golden goodbyes of the relevant directores).
Complain about this comment
'The irony is that the worse things have got in the global economy, the cheerier Gordon appears to be'.......
This is because he knows something you do not.
His job is safe until 2010!
Aha ha ha.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
does it seem so long ago that the Large Hadron Collider was switched on to resounding cheers and back-slapping congratulations.
Maybe we can be told by Gordon, the Great Leader, that the LHC has actually had to be switched off to warm up so they can fix a fault.
Billions spent, and what have we got a huge underground fridge. Come on Gordon when you make your speech congratulate our Olympic team, sorry Team GB, because it really was your grand idea to spend so much money on our athletes that they came fourth in the medals table. Sorry, it was that John Major, well that won't stop you praising your own success.
The wars, oh well done soldiers you won the war but we, the politicians have lost the battle for hearts and minds. How, well don't forget extra-ordinary rendition, and our mistreatment of prisoners, that really gets the people on your side.
Gordon Brown must not be allowed to get away with this, he has let down the country, he has let down the labour party, he was chancellor during the time that these bankers got away with it. As for we are looking at ways to solve these problems, no knee-jerk reactions. Well I'll tell you what will happen the bankers will run for the hills, they will take their money and run, and live the life of riley while we all suffer.
Well while Gordon and Alastair are being level-headed and looking at the issues, we are going under, big time. This is no lifeboat operation for the banks, this is the Titanic and the Captain needs to go down with his ship.
Complain about this comment
#151
You are of course right, but many people refer to these events as a repeat of the lifeboat operation of the seventies, I think that they are wrong. During this period there was an Investment Trust which went under. The staff got to know in advance, so they stripped the offices bare, they even took the skirting boards and the wall panels, as well as the dining table and chairs, they paid a fiver so as to be legal but these assets were worth thousands.
This is a Dreadnought economy, not the Titanic. Let me explain. Britain developed their Dreadnought fleet before WWI. They built the Titanic, unsinkable, only it sank. So, what happened, they realised that the Dreadnoughts were not unsinkable and that if they went down they would lose thousands of sailors. Much better to lose smaller ships, not so many lives lost.
So, they used the Dreadnoughts at Jutland and that was it. All the money was spent on unsinkable ships which sank, tens of thousands of sailors were lost and the Royal Navy was lost. Who would justify spending millons on ships which were lost the first battle they went into.
It is the same with the Banks, they were unsinkable they were Dreadnoughts. We are so finished. This will be known as the Dreadnought economy, the behomeths are gone.
Complain about this comment
Are Labour still in power? ..yes?
Oh well, no reason to cheer up yet then.
Complain about this comment
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7628545.stm
Worth repeating:
Asked by the BBC if income tax would go up Mr Darling declined to answer "yes" or "no", instead saying "it is not the time to take money out of the economy".
When asked to explain that Mr Darling told BBC Breakfast that the time to pay back debt was when the economy is doing better.
AT LAST, Nu Labour finally have it, you pay off debt during the good times.
Shame it took 11 years to learn that one.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
146. Charles_E_Hardwidge
Charles we are pretty well past "The innocence of the first inquiry and the beginners empty mind" dont you think.
Might be useful for a moments meditation, but useless when dealing with failed Prime Ministers.
Complain about this comment
Henry Ford developed mass production, huge factories producing huge numbers of cars.
His system was copied around the world, huge factories, loads of people, massive profits.
Well we are now in a post-Ford society. Big is no longer good, when the factories closed whole towns and city's were effected.
The banks became like Ford factories, the whole idea was ridiculous, they became so big that they were behomeths. They would not go under because of their size. Well that little exercise has proved to be a total abject failure. Banks must be split up, not merged.
The bank which employed me was a holding company with different entities operating as self contained units. If one part went under the other bits were safe. That is how the banks will be structured, with their own profit centres and service level agreements with other parts of the organisation. If one bit fails then it is containable.
The holding company will have access through their computer systems to the overall consolidated balance sheet, to see their overall exposures. The whole world has changed.
Complain about this comment
The BBC "today" programme.
Jin(knock de tories) interview this morning with the Chancellor was typical of the left leaning political and economic reportage.
Blame the banks for the present mess,no mention of the missmanagement of the economy over the last decade the gross incompetance the the vain boasting about abolishing boom and bust.
BBC-you're a jokel l
Complain about this comment
Labour have just the one chance of turning the current economic turmoil to their advantage. That is to convince the public that only a party of the left can push through the regulatory, interventionist reforms which are now perceived to be needed.
I think this is smart politics and it might work. Unfortunately for GB, however, it requires a new leader because he can't escape his embarassing and hubristic "end of boom and bust" boast. He's nailed by that, I'm afraid.
Complain about this comment
New world, new Brown?
Are you having a laugh? This is the same 'I' and 'me' and 'my' Gordon Brown of yore and why he fails so miserably to connect with the electorate.
It's not Gordon Brown's economy; it's our country. 'I am the right man for the job' - but you chose this policy direction in the global economy, stupid. So why are you the right man for the job? More of the same is surely a disaster after the same has landed us without investment in infrastructure for eleven years and a broken banking system.
We all sit and wait for another stay of execution, another keynote speech and he says nothing at all.
'These dificult economic times' but you helped to make them worse by not preparing us for these difficulttimes; you single handedly allowed the property bubble to get out of hand despite numerous warnings about it. You got rid of the 10p tax band despite numerous warnings about it; you got rid of dividned tax relief on pensions despite the advice that this would lead to disaster; you exapnded PFI way beyond its intended degree of use.
In short this prime minister got us into these difficult times with reckless levels of public spending and the biggest credit boom for a hundred years hwich he did nothing to control all for the sake of his promise to end tory boom and bust. We will now pay for this largesse and our children will pay for it.
121 construction companies are not on trial for fraudulent tendering for any other reason than that they saw newlabour and Goron Brown coming and took them for a ride. This single fact is why there is now new Gordon Brown; it's the old Gordon Brown who can't manage our money.
he knows how to spenfd but he does not know how to spend wisely or how to get value for money.
It's the same old Gordon Brown wasting our money at a time we can least afford it.
Complain about this comment
I have a simple solution.......
Whilst we are waiting for the Conservatives to come and fix all the problems....... lets just replace Labour with a solitary man (or woman) who we pay to burn our money in a furnace.
The benefit of this approach, is that the furnace worker will not take to the airwaves and patronise us with twaddle in an attempt to save his job.
Also the media will find it very easy to analyse how effective the furnace worker was. It would be pretty clear if the furnace worker wasn't burning our money fast enough and they could take him to task about his poor record of cash burning.
The other positive is that the furnace worker would not invent any new taxes or penalties.
This approach would help ensure that the blood pressure of British citizens was not going through the roof every time we hear or read a comment by the government.
Complain about this comment
161. sagamix
Be fair, credit where credit is due, he got half way to meeting his goal.
He ended Boom.
Complain about this comment
#139
You are of course again correct. There is an interesting point however. Will the government be so strong on men who sell their bodies to women, or women who buy sex from men. Massage parlours are not just for men you know!
Will there also be controls on the 'rent' boys who still operate. There are some serious moral attitudes which must be clarified, simple to come up with a line about once around the block, well citizen Smith has a lot to learn about human nature. Women have needs as well, there are just as many desperate women as there are men, if not more so.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
A few boom and bust quotes for your amusement
Complain about this comment
Further to my earlier posting I was think of the issue from a strictly philosophical perspective and so thought of this as well. Of course citizen Smith is right! but is she being consistent, what is her actual philosophy on the Harm Principle.
Now get your heads around this one if you can. Jacqui Smith has announced a crackdown on brothels, massage parlours, and kerb crawling. Now then, relate that to Mills Harm Principle. Should the government be passing, and enforcing these laws. Do they have a right so to do, where is the harm.
Now before you answer think! Will they also close down massage parlours which cater for women. Basically, will they stop women who pay for sex from men. In our 'modern' society women too have needs, should they not be satisfied or must they forever paddle their own canoe.
This is a touchy subject but I am seriously interested in this from a philosphical prespective, philosophy in action if you like. Should we take gender more into account when passing utilitarian laws.
Also, think about pre-nuptial agreements, does this also not turn us into, as Shakespeare would say 'pimps and whores'. Or should we just be content to be, as Alastair says, 'pissed off'. There needs to be more debate on these sorts of issues before we accept knee jerk reactions.
Complain about this comment
#7 - Excellent idea. By taxing (for that is what it really is) foreign exchange transactions, we will now return to the good old Labour/Wilson days of 15+% inflation.
In fact, given that the Chinese will now mostly do business for C.O.D., the massive inflation that we exported to them will come back with a vengeance to haunt us for the next 10 years.
I'm sure the dole scroungers will learn to love a diet of nettle soup while the best of Britain will depart for pastures new !!
And think of the savings in global pollution as far fewer people can afford an air ticket or a holiday abroad !! Oh, the joys as children and young people learn to scavenge our storm-wreaked shores in lieu of a sunshine holiday !! And to rediscover the luxury of real furs in warding off the deep winter chills !!
Complain about this comment
Oh dear....
My post in response to Chuck's usual pretentious ramble @146 was twice 'referred to the moderators'. I wonder whether this was because I compared Chuck to a notorious Windbag from the west of these Isles and the powers that be did not want to me to draw attention to this paragon of political success....
I'm pretty sure it was not Chuck himself who did the 'referring', as with his zen-like calm he would consider such an action as 'attacking funk with funk'. (Whatever...).
My main question to Chuck was whether among the personality traits he shares with the Blessed Leader is nail biting? From the logging of his post at 02:28 one can assume that he is either an insomniac or, like his idol, a workaholic (Non-productive, of course).
Complain about this comment
CarrotsneedaQuango2, excellent quotes , sadly they did'nt make me laugh!
In answer to Mr Robinson , no it's the same old ,same old Chancellor/Prime Minister and its the same old ,same old Mr Marr ,busily NOT asking probing questions and it's the same old, same old BBC forgetting the impartiality clause by which it is supposed to abide, therefore allowing it to tax the populace.
Complain about this comment
#125 my posting
I'm so pleased that my earlier posting was returned to public view, after unkind fellow bloggers tried to get it concealed.
I've since given my hypothesis serious consideration. Perhaps I do the Great Zen Master a disservice. Maybe he doesn't suffer from delusions of sharing the same personality traits as Gordon Brown. Maybe he IS Gordon Brown!
Complain about this comment
Debt is down??? Huuwuuuhhhh?
Even though the Hardon Collider has been switched off it seems the PM has been sucked into an alternate reality.
Here's a nice GCSE level Maths question for you Gordon, if you add PFI and public sector pensions to the national debt figure, then divide it by national income, what is the result?
Complain about this comment
I've just watched a little interview with Ken Livingstone who's come out to support Gordon Brown and he's quite adamant that, apparently the credit crunch is Ronald Reagans fault, yes, that same Ronald Reagan who was President of the United States up until 1989 (nearly twenty years ago) and died in 2004 and we've had two full term and one half term presidents since then in the shape of Bush Snr, Clinton and Bush Jnr where any errors of policy could have been changed, but obviously haven't been.
Personally, I think the credit crunch happened because there was a run on the magic pixie dust markets causing unemployment in the gnome empire and with the shortage of manufacturing of Toad Stools the world banks collapsed.
Which probably makes as much tenuous and grasping at straws sense as Ken's claim and as it appears I have a similar grip on reality I'm running for the job of mayor in a couple of years time assuming Gordon hasn't spent every last penny, been thrown out of the European Union because as a country we're all too mentally challenged to elected a decent Prime Minister and we've gone on to be annexed by China as a store cupboard.
You see, the explanation of why Buffoon Boris is now Mayor of London wasn't all that difficult to come by after all.
Complain about this comment
Reading some of the comment in here can be quite wearing and dispiriting, so it's no wonder some MPs feel a bit rattled. But, that's what people want you to think because they're trying to get the gold trophy by trampling over other folks bodies. So much for change and the self-styled forces of change.
I've been reading a comment on the Prime Minister's new strategies, and the difference between 37% and Osborne’s claimed 43.3% of debt as a percentage of GDP is interesting. AMD, the worlds second largest chip manufacturer recently sold its fabrication plants and leased them back. The idea being it eases cash flow and allows an expert third party to leverage their focus on pure manufacture. Some questions: How has this kind of finance been good for Britain? What new business and export opportunities have been created by this outsourcing? If the 0.2% is true then how bad would business and infrastructure be if it were any lower? I don't do 'debate' so mention that merely as a point for reflection.
I'm generally pleased with the proposed changes to international finance regulation and cooperation. Terrorism, criminality, and other shady behaviour has been given a free ride for decades. In some ways, governments have been complicit in this as it creates holes for black operations and arm twisting to take place, and transnational corporation to export poverty, and assorted gangsters cream off loot and retire to sunny climes on their ill gotten gains. If the potential global renaissance prophesied by the UN is to happen, measures like this look like a necessary step.
So, if the usual suspects are keeping up with this, one question you might like to ask yourselves is that instead of indulging competitive behaviour for a serotonin buzz, doesn't a more subtle and laid back position look more profitable? I think it does and, I sure, the smart money will follow as well. It's why it's called smart money. You know, that stuff you lot don't have.
Complain about this comment
Facebook Group Comes to Gordon's Aid
A NuLabour blogger thought he was being helpful by setting up a group on FACEBOOK called WE DON'T WANT A LEADERSHIP ELECTION.
He hadn't reckoned on the fact that it would be instantly supported by Tories. Indeed, he was so horrified that he has now closed the group and you have to be invited to join it ... which kind of defeats the object of setting it up in the first place. This interwebby thing is difficult to control, isn't it?
Complain about this comment
If posters think the beeb in the form of Nick and Andrew Marr is being too soft on Brown, perhaps you should check out Robert Peston
Complain about this comment
It wasn’t you that set the face book group WE DON’T WANT A LEADERSHIP ELECTION up was it Chuck.
It sounds pretty smart!
Complain about this comment
All this talk by Brown and his supporters about the "new world economy" as if nothing that is happening is his fault is simply hot air. If anything, the current economic turbulence proves that nothing has changed, we are simply going through another period of re-adjustment like many that have happened before; it is in the nature of things. Has he not heard of the South Sea bubble, the great tulip bubble, the great depression? The one thing they all had in common was the unsupportable levels of credit and capital appreciation (read that as undiluted and unregulated greed).
He has been at the helm of the British economy for over a decade (and his hand is still on the tillar despite moving next door). He encouraged and enabled this situation, using the British economy to further his own goals of social engineering. It was bound to end in tears, and the conjunction of the inevitablity of his policies with a truly global downturn (caused by the same greed in the USA) is a kind of poetic justice. His self-annointed title as a great chancellor with a planet-sized intellect, a global economic Titan, lies in ruins, and he can never reclaim it. He is like an arsonist who offers to put out the fire he started as it rages out of control after unexpected sudden winds fan the flames. The opposition parties may not inspire huge confidence, but Brown and Labour have lost the right to be trusted with the economy. If they are returned to office it will be a question of same policies - same result.
Complain about this comment
Brown has no excuses but Labour are allowing him to stay until things calm a little. Expect the knives to be back out after Glenrothes and Gordon to be gone at the latest by next summer. I dread to think where we will be by then.
There is a new global economy and one that our government is not able to sway or influence. Unfortunately in their arrogance our great leader believes he can borrow us out of trouble. We are going to be paying for this for at least a decade and possibly more with the errors of his handling of the economy.
Of the legislation Labour have brought to pass, one crucial one should have been the accountability of our MPs and the fact that if they are deliberately corrupt or callously ruin the stability of our economy/public services, they should be held accountable and potentially jailed. That is one policy I would think would be an election winner!
Complain about this comment
#175 - Charles_E_Hardwidge
"AMD, the worlds second largest chip manufacturer recently sold its fabrication plants and leased them back . . . How has this kind of finance been good for Britain?"
I don't think AMD manufacture in the UK but, if they did, instead of holding a capital asset on the books, the sale and leaseback arrangement would create a rental flow to a landlord which would be taxable so the Treasury would benefit substantially.
Complain about this comment
Wouldn't do that for a whole bunch of reasons. I'd tell you but, then, you'd know as much as me and my l33t skillz wouldn't be worth a dime. What I will say is that it suggests people normally thought of as 'on the left' may benefit from learning hardcore management skills. But, it did reveal the hand of the Tory astroturf campaign. There's some lessons and pointers in there for anyone paying attention.
And, yeah. Reagan pretty much did lay the foundation for the economic bubble that just burst. Ken's on the money with that one. Plus, Boris Johnson didn't win on merit but brute force and blind luck. He pulled a Pepsi versus Coke stunt and 'borrowed' Ken's popularity. Without that he would've been invisible. Cameron's pulled the other marketing scam of being a political soap powder advert. It's no wonder that both are as inspiring and lovable as a glass of warm water.
My take is too many journalists are living in the past and the public has been too brainwashed by too many years of cheating lawyers and TV advertising. It's gone on so long and seems so commonplace that folks have forgotten alternatives exist. If anyone doubts this they can look up Ogilvy and Drucker, the gurus of advertising and management, and see how their vision compares to the dreg today.
Complain about this comment
175. Charles_E_Hardwidge
[i]doesnt a more subtle and laid back position look more profitable?[/i]
Of course it does NOW, everyone is going to be looking for blue chips and safe investments for the next few years. This is the easy bit.
The problem starts when the economy starts to race again, if you over regulate, restrict trade, clip bonuses etc, then money, at a click of a button, is on the other side of the planet.
Brown is right when he says regulation has to be across the globe for it to work, but do you seriously think Russia, China, South America are going to sign up? Or do you think they will see western restrictions and regulation as a chance to bring in big investment.
London has attracted so much of the money because of lack of regulation.
The new lesson is this, boom and bust are part of a capitalist economy, the trick is to control the markets and the cycle so that the peaks and troughs are less dramatic. [b] But busts are needed they cool things down and take out the weak elements.[/b]
We need a government that manages the countries economy so that we are prepared for busts, i.e. cut borrowing in time of boom and spend during busts.
We need a body run by economists and bankers who really understand the markets who watch the economy and supervise it on a day by day basis and not stick rigidly to any regulation, drawn up in order to try to improve a failing PMs popularity
Perhaps the bank of England could do it, independent of politicians. Now theres an idea.
[b]The fact remains that Brown, with all his acclaimed knowledge of finance and the economy managed our countries finances as though boom was going to go on forever. It didnt, he got it wrong in a massive way and should now, fall on his sword.[/b]
Instead, he is on my screen pleading for understanding and more time and promising to do better.
[b]You clearly swallow it Charles, but I dont.[/b]
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Is it GB or is it NuLab that the public have lost faith in? Or both?
Maybe the reason that GB is under attack from within his own party is that it is more comfortable for Labour MPs to rationalise the problems as being down to GB rather than NuLab policies and the direction they have taken the Country in the last 11 years?
Maybe it's not GB that is in denial but his party?
After all, you have got to be unpopular in a major way to be so far behind in the polls when, unless I have missed it, the major opposition party seem to have nothing to say about the situation.
Labour have blown it, the Conservaties are silent and the Lib Dems irrelevant. Why does no-one want my vote?
Complain about this comment
146. Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
"Instead of slagging the Prime Minister off, some folks might want to empty their cup and listen to what the guy says: "Getting on with it", "Taking the rough with the smooth", "Doing whatever it takes." This isn't rocket science and you can get books on it. Instead of tripping over our own funk we can let go. Hence, the title and book: Zen Mind, Beginners Mind."
You're right, this isn't rocket science - that would require more than mindless platitudes. Generalities are all well and good but they can only take you so far. Eventually, you need to put forward specific ideas or you just sound like a child trying to avoid admitting that they haven't done their homework.
"The internal market of the mind is the same as the financial markets. So, by doing different ourselves we can effect change in ourselves, and what goes around. Instead of project chaos and fear, we project order and harmony. As we change our perception and the world around us changes."
So, your solution is "pretend it's not happening and it will go away"? I'm sure I've seen this plan in action somewhere else recently...
Are you Gordon's alt?
Complain about this comment
He set up the foundations of the current problems as Chancellor - remember he and Blair agreed to leave economic management to him ?
If he's made mistakes then perhaps he's not the man for the job , or is he hiding - again ? GB does not inspire, he a technocrat - if Labour keep him as leader they will go down to a defeat that will be as bad as 1997 was the Tories. And frankly we'd just don't an ineffectual opposition for the next 10 years. The Tories have been in opposition for 11 years due to the disgust with them - just read the blogs. comments about Labour today - same thing - same effect
Complain about this comment
I have some understanding of regulation and markets, and people and cultures. Also, I've taken a leading position on this for over the past year which folks can check if they want to waste some time. So, policy and popular understanding is really just shifting behind where I was from the get-go. Help yourself to the biscuit barrel.
You can have all the rules on the planet but unless people are motivated to do the right thing they'll pull stunts. This can be condensed down to goals, processes, and outcomes. Processes are just action and relations, and that has its root in the self, or mind. But, continuous self-improvement can help drive that shift in perspective.
Let go, dear. It's easier if you don't struggle.
Complain about this comment
Gordon Brown's - Whatever it takes line - is not new.
It's been his and New Labour's approach since 1997. Say whatever it takes, do whatever it takes - to stay in power.
Complain about this comment
188. Charles_E_Hardwidge
Assuming that everyone in the city isnt on the path to enlightenment, shall we just have a few rules to try to control their naturural urge to GET RICH QUICK
And given that its a given that the PM isnt interested in the path to enlightenment just the path to more power, shall we shout Brown Out together.
Complain about this comment
147 Getridofgordonow, your quite wrong . We all accept that this is a public forum but that doesn't give you or anyone else the right to encompass everyone into your opinion, your statements presuppose that every one thinks as you do and that is patently untrue. Although, not being as I am often told grammatically correct. I think that my version of what you intended to say was probably the right way to put it.
You see, we socialists see daily Tory criticisms of the Labour party and thats your prerogative we accept that. unfortunately you pretty well all have the same fault you all seem to assume that everyone in the country has the same opinion as yourselves. and If they haven't then their either unintelligent, misinformed or just plain bl***y stupid.
Dont you think thats a strange way to feel about people in this country. I have no problem with someone who wishes to vote Tory, I think their wrong but its their choice.
When I speak of David Cameron I may say I think he's a buffoon but I would never say "Everyone thinks Cameron is a buffoon" because that would obviously be untrue.
We on here like to have a go at one and other and thats a part of the hurly burly of these blogs and may I dare say the fun that we all enjoy of passing our opinions on to other people, after all who else is going to listen to us, we are privileged to have from our homes a more or less captive audience or as captive as we are likely to get.
you say
"Anyway, I stand by my thought that anyone who believes brown when he said that having a global economy is a brand new thing that's only suddenly magically occurred in the last few weeks is clearly not in their right mind."
Gordon Brown has never said that global economy is a new thing, when he talks of the global economy today he is comparing it with the global economy of forty, thirty or perhaps only twenty years ago, since the emergence of the countries of the east that have started to become economic giants of the now and the future.
I would have thought that you being a intelligent man would perhaps see that.
That doesn't mean that those that see it differently to you or I are not in their right mind.
I know that there are some people on here perhaps even myself that make you mad and sometimes we fall by the wayside and say idiot and if we dont say it we think it.
The people who I feel deserve such a comment are those that say repeatedly things like gordon must go over and over again and then post it because they have nothing else to say.
I dont include you in that group I hasten to say, but what would you say if two or three times a day I posted "Cameron is a big mouthed idiot who doesn't have enough sense to know which way up a one way street you are supposed to go".
Now my friend how would that go down with the Tories on these blogs and I am sure that there are other socialists and liberals that could repeat similar things over and over as some Tories do. Its extremely boring and gives no credence to the person who posts this nonsense and adds nothing to the debate it is a statement that only deserves to be ignored, and is.
Complain about this comment
With the greatest respect, Nick, while some of the questions are in this blog, the analysis is in Robert Peston's. In fact I think I'll go back and read it again.
Complain about this comment
Just watched the interview on iPlayer and at no point did I believe Gordon wasn't just regurgitating scripted responses. "Getting on with the job" ... "hard pressed families" ... "Difficult long term decisions" ... blah blah. All the tired phrases we've heard time and time and time again - about about as relevant to the actual question as the answers he gives in PMQs.
He's like a robot - and the ears have rusted up and stopped working. Marr should have wiped but the floor with him but instead was far too soft. No doubt he'll give Cameron a rougher ride next time he's on.
Complain about this comment
re: 191 grandantidote
It's a matter of fact which Brown has admitted that the financial systems in the uk have not been properly regulated since labour came to power, and that's his responsibility.
Now, whether he failed due to not understanding the market (ie idiocy) or whether he made a conscious decision not to regulate (ie negligence), the fact remains that he failed and is responsible.
Did he honestly think globalism itself was new, or was he just running 10 years behind reality? Either way he's responsible and at fault.
Complain about this comment
193. DukeJake
The interview was truely astonishing.
Bet its Sir Andrew Marr by the end of Jan.
Complain about this comment
Mr Brown was probably smiling because he will have more money behind him when he leaves No.10., than the rest of us will earn in a lifetime.
Complain about this comment
92 derek Barker you asked carrots for a list of Tory policies, thats something we would all like to see.
He came up with a list which on the face of it you would think fair enough he's answered the question with a list, then you and I and many others look at the list and see that it comes from the archives of J Major and maggie. that their is no change of policy at all. and you put this to him. I did tell you a week or two ago that talking to most Tories on here,not all, is like talking to a brick wall.
100 fairly open mined comes up with a load of points which come under the catogories of "it only takes a sentence to ask a question but might take a book to answer it. so we'll pass on that one.
101 carrots comes back with a extremely poor post, as he obviously had no answer
most of the things that he mentions are being dealt with on a weekly basis and have been for several years and were entered into quite openly and publicly but the hospitals and schools were built for the benefit of the children and the sick does he say that was wrong.
110 once again you make a sensible statement hoping for a good response.
132 roll on chimes in with
"Wow Derek you really are a ranter. First you say the Tories have no policies and then you ream of 18.
I know fiction is the main plank of your comments but please at least try to be consistent."
You reamed off carrots Tory policies which went out with the ark. or are they saying that they are still the Tory policies, only they can say wether they are fiction or not
134 absolutly right.
140 then out comes roll on with this incredible statement,
"I dont know what you think Derek, but I believe we should be spending money on lifting children out of poverty and not on a war many thousands of miles away."
I dont know Derek whether rollon is aware but this government has lifted six hundred thousand children out of poverty since coming to office and this work is on going. Yes we need to help children in this country but the countries that this government have helped including those of the two wars is a credit to us.whether you agree with the two wars is a matter of choice they both have my support,The children were living in criminal conditions in some areas and in the African states that Gordon Brown in particular has been urging the world to help with quite some success, the children there would consider the life of the poorest family in the UK as being the life of a millionair. this government has not got the closed mind of the Tories we socialists care about everyone out there not just this little island.
Well there I end my little synopsis of the events following carrots predictable tory list of policies there's nothing there that we didn't expect but quite a lot to be afraid of.
Anyway Derek Barker you obviously dont need my help you doing very well on your own.good luck.
Complain about this comment
Market forces at work, Brown is powerless.
Complain about this comment
Adam Boulton - The Sky news political editor looks like he has written an interesting new book on the topic of New Labour media management:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/sep/22/alistaircampbell.media
I've though for a long time that the media have been really soft on Labour - having read the extract I now know why.
Complain about this comment
194 getridofgordon now ,You haven't answered one of my questions so am I to suppose that you agree with me.
Regarding Globalism I repeat he has never said it was new. You said that to further your rather weak argument.
He has frequently said the increasing problems with the global economy raise many problems that weren't there as I have said some thirty odd years ago, and he is quite right, in my opinion.
Its some thing that is going to become more of a problem in the future for whoever is in power.
To say that globalisation is Gordon Browns fault is like saying that if it rains tomorrow its his fault and I wouldn't put that past some of you guys on here.
Complain about this comment
Brown is in denial - nothing new there! There are many charges of incompetence which may be laid at Brown's door, chief amongst them was borrowing to spend during the boom years. Now we have the bust, the Government cupboard is bare and the public sector borrowing requirement is heading into outer space. Because of Brown, this country is storing up huge problems for the future - there will have to be tax rises and spending cuts at some point, whichever party is in Government and that is Brown's legacy to the future!
Complain about this comment
The Conservative group leader of Sefton Council from 1991 to 2005, had told delegates that "dissatisfaction" over Tory policy on public services had prompted his defection 10 weeks ago.
Oooops, dissatisfaction?
But then again, who is this man?
He is a Tory no more!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
We would have changed the regulations to make sure that what happened on the Stock Market would be avoided.
We should have acted earlier, even as early as last year.
We could have reduced tax on houses for first time buyers, up to 500,000 Sterling.
In short we should jump on the bandwagon and call ourselves Lefties of the working class.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Sorry Nick, I am reading boy Dave script for the Tory conference.
Have a nice day Nick.
Complain about this comment
197. grandantidote
Wow someones been busy.
Cant do DB without a bottle of wine so lets save that for tonight. No doubt hell be up soon.
However, you are quite right to be afraid.
Wealth creation is down, Tax revenue is down, public spending is risingand the credit card is maxed out.
So its massive tax rises or massive borrowing or massive cuts. Either way its gona be painful.
And can you PLEASE stop labouring under the impression that your labour government has built you all these nice new schools and hospitals. They were built by private companies who now want to rent them to you for a fairly hefty premium. They are not yours for at least antother 25 years.
Complain about this comment
re: 200 grandantidote
So your argument is that because some aspects of "globalism" have only been around for about 30 years, that means that Brown couldn't have considered/regulated them? That makes no sense.
I didn't say that globalism was his fault (I didn't say globalism itself is a problem; it's not), I said that Brown either didn't understand it or he didn't regulate against it when it changed (and it does change; nothing stays the same; it's his job to keep in touch with reality in the financial systems and not to be 30 years behind).
He was in charge of the regulatory framework for the last 11 years, and we've just had a massive financial collapse caused by lack of regulation (and Brown himself admits that), therefore it's self-evident that he's either negligent or an idiot or both.
If you can counter that logic without shouting abuse and without making illogical statements, then go for it; we're all ears.
I suggest you read Peston's blog first though, because he explains the more technical aspects very well.
Complain about this comment
Spot of lunch with Jasper. Not on his very best form, I'm sorry to report. Kept talking about how "the Great Lady" can't remember her own name these days. Started blubbering at one point, I'm ashamed to say. Tried my damndest to cheer him up with a few choice "wild card" remarks about quangeroos and political directness but to no avail.
Complain about this comment
200. grandantidote
If I may just add one little point:
The whole global point seems to centre around this:
When we had a global boom, Nu Labour took the credit in spades (see quotes from the whole team in post 167)
Now there is a down turn, all we hear is Well what do you expect, it’s a global thing, you cant blame us
How do you square that circle then?
Complain about this comment
I think the level of disenchantment with Brown is fascinating.
We are only ever asked to vote 'yes' or 'no' for these guys.
We can't give a more sophisticated assessment - which must surely be a frustration for some of the guys writing here. There is some very sophisticated feedback for the Prime Minister.
I'm sure the same is true for Clegg and Cameron. Is this a democratic deficit?
We're running the first ever 360 feedback for party leaders, which enables people to appraise and feed back on the leaders in a more detailed way.
Go to www.couraud.com/tellgordon if you are interested in taking part in this political experiment.
Complain about this comment
If this is a new world with a new Gordon Brown could someone please explain two things:
I)why are ministers being asked to take a 'loyalty test' ahead of the autumn reshuffle - because to the untrained eye this just looks like more Stalin plays Mr Bean tactics from Gordon Brown and destined for failure.
II)why are Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling insisting over and over again that we are in the middle of tough and challenging times? There is no change here; what people are looking for now is clever and politically attractive policy - but there is none.
I reiterate what I have claimed for some weeks on these posts; the UK is bankrupt so there can be no swanky policy initiatives. The Treasurr is heading for borrowing 90bn pounds this year before Northern Rock, Metronet and all the PFI 'initiatives'. They have no money.
Hence tomorrow the 'keynote' speech by Gordon Brown will be more of the same difficult challenges and tough times promises without manner or method of delivery. The very idea of the two clunking fists making a deeply personal seeph as has been suggested will be the result of his new speech writing 'genius' Tim Kiddell is about as likely to succeeed as an attempt to polish a turd.
It's hardly a surprise that in June the speech writing job was facing a shortage of applicants. And it's also hardly a surprise that one of Blair's former spin doctors who disappeared to France to run an hotel has reappeared at the conference as a freelance journalist - Lance Price. What will he have to write about the Great Ditherer's new found sensitive side, one wonders.
Complain about this comment
To use a topical Americanism.
"You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig."
Gordon Brown is still Gordon Brown. He won't change from what the public has now decided he is: A career politician who has risen to the top of the greasy poll by ruthlessly destroying his enemies behind their backs and disappearing when the shit is flying.
Now he has the top job, he has realised (to his horror) that those tactics do not now work. He is front and centre, unable to hide and unable to backstab. He knows no other way and so he fumbles about reacting to events like Mr Bean on steroids (cheers Vince for that one).
That said, he'll still be in place by 2010, simple because Labour don't have anyone with the talent and the ability to replace him. Maybe they would have had a better choice of candidates if they hadn't insisted on those all women shortlists?
Complain about this comment
Marr has always been a lightweight interveiwer, It was a sad day when Frost gave up.
Peston has analysed it quite well today but hasn't really gone far enough in his condemnation or his aportioning the blame.
Lets face it Gordon said it is the "right" time to borrow now. In this he is correct, however we can't really afford to borrow now due to his former imprudence and borrowing to fund his spending addiction.
If he was any good as an economist the country would owe around 10 billion now and the borrowing of a further 40 Billion would be just about affordable. but to borrow up to 50 Billion now on top of the 40 billion we already owe is madness.
It really is that simple.
I forget who it was on here that was spouting his facts about public debt being under 40% of GDP, we all argued the facts with him then, they are actually irrelevant because by conference season next year we willl be close to 80% of GDP in debt.
Complain about this comment
197 Grandantidote
Here are the Conservative policies:
http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do?def=people.opportunity.page
I also suggest you take a look at this article to get a flavour of the status of policies and how the Conservatives plan to operate in government
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/camerons-first-100-days-882617.html
Complain about this comment
#210
it is both grandantidote and balhamu who launch themselves into hyparabolic opprobrium if you criticise 'prudence's' national debt numbers and budget deficit figures.
Fret not; the numbers grow larger by the second. Just like Gordon Brown's chances of leading his party to historic oblivion.
Complain about this comment
117 jimparlett
you say
"But, during this time, child poverty has increased, old age poverty has increased, school attainment has remained stagnant, standards of living, particularly amongst the poorest sectors of the population, have done down"
This old chap is complete nonsense labour since being in power have removed over six hundred thousand children out of child poverty.
As a old age pensioner I can assure you that old age poverty has not increased we can do with a little more cash but we are certainly better of than under the tories.
Education has improved so much that GCSE's are now so attainable that some people find it hard to believe, and think that the exams have been made easier. that is until they try them themselves,
Standards of living among the poor have risen enormously over the last ten years take a look around their homes today to compare what they were ten years ago, how often do you see an old banger these days most people right from the poorest generally have fairly nice cars,they are almost always well clothed and the biggest threat to poor health is obesity and you dont get that from not eating
Complain about this comment
#95 CEH
Good afternoon
To quote you.... "Gordon Brown is a rare personality type I know very well, because its a personality type I share, along with other characters like Steve Jobs and Baroness Scone"
Not for one minute are you as disingenuous as Gordon Brown surely? I think Brown is a rare personality type, his transparent attempts at humility did not fool me.
Complain about this comment
213. grandantidote wrote:
Education has improved so much that GCSE's are now so attainable that some people find it hard to believe
Youre not wrong my dog got 4 As and a B this summer.
Hes been offered a job in government procurement.
Complain about this comment
#213
you're right; standards have improved dramatically - my pet rat was awarded 10A stars at GCSEs and has been placed in Yvette Cooper's office in charge of making sure no more newlabour taxpayers' cash is poured down the drain.
Complain about this comment
#215 - CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
I hear they are doing GCSEs as a BOGOF next term. Wonder if it would work with peerages?
Complain about this comment
@213
Its not education that has got better, its coaching to pass exams that has got better.
It is a direct result of measuring teachers and schools by their results.
It is well known in industry that if you target a metric you will get an improvement in measured results regardless of reality improving.
Its got so bad now that some schools are actively stating that they wont coach to achieve results and that is why their exam results are behind other schools in the same area.
Complain about this comment
GA
My friend is a teacher and has been for 36 years. She is appalled at the low standards of education in this country. This government has dumbed down the examinations to such an extent, that more students will pass and, hey presto, their stats are up. Doesn't take a genius to work that one out.
I read your comments about the state pension with interest. Both my mother and my mother-in-law are on state pensions. My mother-in-law is 81 and after paying into the tax and NI system almost all her working life, she is now struggling to make ends meet. She was offered a pension credit of just 5p a week because her earnings fell just inside the credit barrier. Where is the fairness there, GA?
You then went on to tell us how this government enabled us all to drive better cars, and live in nicer homes. If this is the case, I'm still waiting. I have provided everything my family has through hard work, and it has had nothing to do with Gordon Brown, or any other member of the Labour Party.
I would be interested to see if the poorer people to whom you refer, are still better off after Christmas when the energy bill increases really start to bite.
Every day on TV we see and hear ordinary people telling us that they are not better off under Labour. You see old chap, you Labour bloggers are all so blinkered when it comes to good old common sense.
Complain about this comment
#215
shock new.... a dead parrot in East Grinstead has been awarded a place at Oxford to study medicine. The parrot is said to be 'silenced' by the news.
Complain about this comment
213. grandantidote wrote
On a more serious note
Backs up Pots point.
Complain about this comment
To paraphrase Charlie-boy
“Happy fish bubble cantankerous banana splodge I am a genius gibber gibber fruit rabbit you are slugs beneath my wellies arkle zen ommmm go flow yellow polka dot bikini feel the power of my mighty intellect snarf bandana moth to the flame hubble bubble toil and trouble why won’t you pitiful creatures just lay down and give in ground control to make arrangements for the teacakes.”
Interestingly, if you record this and then play it backwards, it actually says “Gordon is the master, speak and I shall obey, Gordon is the master, speak and I shall obey”.
Complain about this comment
I think hes run off to get his wing man
Derek Barker.
Complain about this comment
Ta Carrots
Its not just Mathematics either. All subjects suffer from it.
It is well known that some teachers actually write out course work for pupils to copy out.
Clearly not all teachers do this, before you all come on here high and mighty, but the fact that any do is scandalous. Who can blame them though when the school gets its budget according to performance.
Take this for a scenario a child enters the school system it is to the schools advantage for the child to perform as badly as possible. then when they leave that school to go into secondary education they coach them to pass the tests as high as possible so that any improvement is as large as possible. The secondary school do their own entry test and find the child to be not as good as the junior school said but this performance gap is never measured. The same goes for kids leaving school and entering Uni. The Uni's are all saying the kids aren't as good as their grades would suggest. Hence LSE amongst others now requiring an entry exam.
But don't worry anyone Tractor production is up ( In Italy)
Complain about this comment
Grandantidote #213
How can you possibly claim to speak for all old age pensioners on the subject of old age poverty. Do you personally know all these other pensioners? Wasn't it you who was having a go at someone else on this very blog about appearing to speak on behalf of other people.
Oh, I forgot, you're unashamedly pro New Labour. Its the "Do as I say, not as I do" approach.
Incidentally I was a teacher, my wife is a teacher. Standards are down. Results are up. The exams are easier. These are things that most teachers I know agree on.
You could achieve the same thing in athletics by, for example, lowering the Olympic long-jump qualifying standard to 1 metre. Then we would have millions of Olympic standard long jumpers. It wouldn't make them any better of course, but at least they'd be Olympic standard.
Complain about this comment
Why didn't Andrew Marr ask why Mr Brown can find the time to welcome our "heroic" Olympians home but has never found the time to receive the dead bodies of our "heroic" soldiers.
Complain about this comment
I think that the economic troubles we are currently experiencing would not be happening were it not for Brown.
It's all Brown's fault.
What we should have done is deregulated further (as the Conservatives made clear last year, and in every previous year). Then there would be no problems whatsoever. The regulation on mortgage firms caused them to lend irresponsibly. If we'd have trusted them more, they would have behaved better.
The free market works. Simple as. Intervention is bad. Government is inefficient and tax is morally wrong (unless it is to bail out the rich, which is a special exemption to these iron laws).
Logical, isn't it really?
Complain about this comment
210:
"I forget who it was on here that was spouting his facts about public debt being under 40% of GDP, we all argued the facts with him then, they are actually irrelevant because by conference season next year we willl be close to 80% of GDP in debt."
i know the current account deficit as a percentage is looking quite large, even as large as the early 1990s, but to suggest that the national debt will grow from around 600 billion to 1200 billion, is in my opinion, somewhat ridiculous
Complain about this comment
# 220 RJD
Bet you wished you'd had the opportunity to go to university though, don't you Robin?
Complain about this comment
Reading through the Millipede's biography, I was amused to see that he is a dedicated blogger. Any ideas what his nom de plume, on this forum could be?
Complain about this comment
213 Grandantidote
I won't respond to your comments that life for pensioners, together with education, has improved under Nu Labour, because reading through the postings, it is clear that many (note I don't say ALL) do not agree with you.
However, I must comment on teh following:
"the biggest threat to poor health is obesity and you dont get that from not eating"
Wrong! It is commonly accepted that cheap food, filled with carbohydrates and poor fats increases girth.
Complain about this comment
It might well be a 'global issue' but Brown will have great difficulty in convincing the electorate of that because for them, as always, all significant politics is local.
A simple political truth that his predecessor fully understood.
The vipers are writhing in the New Labour nest and for Gordon Brown, a man who appears to have made too many enemies on the way up, death's political sting will not be sweet.
Complain about this comment
#197
Thank you- Brother.........
The reason why they dont give us their policies.....IS...we would expose them for what they are.......little lord puppets.
You will find...roll-on 2010...has a different agenda.......he supports the arch-nats in the north.....
As for Carrots...well.....what is wrong in his life that he must get drunk every night.....
Complain about this comment
232 John Constable
As you say, Brown failed to heed the business maxim
"Be nice to people on the way, as you are sure to meet them on the way down."
Complain about this comment
But Derek, you've been given the policies - or didn't you see post 211?
So, rather than making insinuations about others on this forum, why not read the policies you keep claiming don't exist, then come back and actually comment constructively on them. Maybe compare them to the "aspiration" of childcare places for 2 year olds in 10 years time, and the "confession" that Gordon has been "worried about" the financial sector for some time (but not worried enough to do anything about it).
Cheery bye.
Complain about this comment
215 carrots well I guess the dog did better than you then. Sorry I couldn't resist that one
Complain about this comment
#212
Is "hyparabolic opprobrium" some posh way of saying "correct inaccuracies in other posters comments"?
Such as "The debt has risen" (the stats say otherwise, even taking into account PFI and assuming PFI debt was zero in 1997).
Such as "The structural deficit is higher" (the independent IFS say it is lower)
Such as "The US have saved for a rainy day enabling their interventions" (the US have a far higher net debt as a proportion of GDP, so would appear to have saved less and fund interventions through their tolerance of higher levels of debt than the UK)
Yes - posts disproving the incorrect assertions that posters such as you are lengthy. It's easier to just say something not based on anything other than assertion (as you do) than to prove it is wrong with data from unbiased sources (and reference it) and to analyse what it actually means.
Disheartening that in the face of such facts, posters revert to lying again in subsequent threads and then criticise posters for having the cheek to actually put some evidence in their posts.
Then again, evidence-based policy isn't the strong point of the right-wing is it (see e.g. the assertion made by right-wingers in the US - and in the UK - that tax receipts increase as tax rates go down - a theoretical possibility, an empirical falsehood, but very important in influencing and justifying policy).
Complain about this comment
216 robin jd To be fair robin it doesn't surprise me at all that your choice of pet would be a rat.
Complain about this comment
217 threnodio Careful your on a dodgy subject with the Tory Noble Lord Ashcroft.
Complain about this comment
Chuck_E_Hogwash @188 wrote:
"Let go, dear. It's easier if you don't struggle."
Sounds like the mantra of a creepy serial rapist.
Complain about this comment
233. derekbarker
Oh lord theyre calling each other brother now, we really are back to the 70s.
236. grandantidote
Interested to hear your reply to 206.
Complain about this comment
211 and others.
The most recent real demonstration of Tory "Policy" where there was an actual real event to decide on was Northern Rock.
Is there anyone a year on who thinks the Tory response to that situation was the right one?
Basically let the Bank go to the wall, no nationalisation at any cost. Osbourne described the Nationalisation as "a catastrophic decision" (source BBC News 18 Feb 08)
So what would the Tory remedy have caused if not a catastrohe for the British Banking sector and the domino effect on other banks.
So does anyone still feel the Tories were right?
Complain about this comment
#235
Grawth, nothing new their same old tripe
cuts.....more cuts...and even more cuts!
Wow! A vision for the future...more like back to the future.....1980's spin..
Are you serious with Osbourne.....
I mean does he not realise that there are new school members every year?
Very thin on a cleaner Britain....some green energy..under some blue private investor?
I think Carrots outlined the tories position, on an earlier thread..no change..same old tories..........
Complain about this comment
219 shellingout well I dont want to insult or offend your mother or your mother in law but you make it difficult for me not too. all I can say is I and my wife and dog manage very well on our state pension I supose not to put to fine a point on it ,it depends on how you manage your income .none of my business but do they drink or smoke or perhaps go out for meals.
Of course gordon brown didn't give you anything do you think he should but you say you worked hard for what you got, in the eighties and nineties you wouldn't have had that privilege under the Tories.
Poorer people will be better or as well of after Xmas Gordon has promised to help them but do you honestly think the tories would have helped them do you remember the winter fuel allowance ,ten pounds but only after ten days continously below freezing.
I wouldn't dare to call you a liar regarding the people you claim to see daily on TV but perhaps a fibber would be in order but I am a pretty keen TV watcher and yet strangely enough its only Tories that see these people. Sorry for any mistakes grammatical mistake but I am trying to answer as many as possible.
Complain about this comment
237. balhamu
Ok as I understand it:
The US have high debt, low taxation and low levels of public expenditure, so if need be they have a route out.
We have (by comparison) medium debt, high taxation and high levels of public expenditure. we do not have an easy route out.
Interested to know what our levels of debt really are, ie including PFI and public sector pension commitments.
Complain about this comment
#241
Carrots....The bottle neck has narrowed...Eh
Oh.....no pub..singing now! Meow
Complain about this comment
220 robin jd isn't it a shame that someone didn't award you a place at Oxford ,
Complain about this comment
224 pot kettle got that from the beano did you .
Complain about this comment
242 - "So what would the Tory remedy have caused if not a catastrohe for the British Banking sector and the domino effect on other banks.
So does anyone still feel the Tories were right? "
As I understand it there was the chance for Lloyds TSB to rescue Northern Rock before the run on the bank started in earnest, but the Treasury quashed the idea at the time. That would have been the proper solution.
Complain about this comment
To 237 -"
Then again, evidence-based policy isn't the strong point of the right-wing is it"
Basic point on Government borrowing is that Brown was deficit spending during the boom - a time when a prudent Chancellor would have been running with a Budget surplus. As a consequence, the UK is very badly placed to weather the coming recession.
Complain about this comment
225 grawth ,
*How can you possibly claim to speak for all old age pensioners on the subject of old age poverty.* Do you personally know all these other pensioners?* Wasn't it you who was having a go at someone else on this very blog about appearing to speak on behalf of other people.
*I didn't.
*No
*Yes
In that order and what point does that prove.
Second paragraph Tory rheteric.
Third paragraph, then you only have your selves to blame, unless you wanted Gordon to come and hold your hands.
Last couldn't agree more.
Complain about this comment
231 pheonixarison I wasn't looking for anyones approval I was expressing my own views and observations
Wrong! It is commonly accepted that cheap food, filled with carbohydrates and poor fats increases girth.
The choice is their's and they make it.
Complain about this comment
235 grawth So your telling us that they really are their policies.Ill bet you wont see many of them on the bill boards.
Complain about this comment
GA
My replies to you have been carefully constructed to make sure I do not offend you.
You, on the other hand, seem hell-bent on offending as many people on this site (and off it) as you can.
You are an extremely offensive and rude man and you continue to insult people, even when it is abundantly clear that they are having a joke with you. You clearly have no sense of humour, no common sense and no brains! If this is what voting Labour does for you, the sooner we get rid, the better!
Complain about this comment
"it's a global economy stupid"
That sums up the Labour attitude to anyone who disagrees with them. Stupid.
ID cards/NIR
Breaking the promise of a referendum on the EU constitution
Giving away the rebate
Increasing taxes again and again
Taking away civil liberties
Giving millions of taxpayers money to people in the Middle East who want to finish what Hitler started.
All down to Labour, and incidentally not related at all to the current economic woes.
STOP CENSORING LICENCE FEE PAYERS, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY DO NOT BREAK YOUR RULES!
Complain about this comment
249 Crowded
There were talks betweenthe Bank of England (not treasury) and Lloyds but no formal offer made.
In any case there was a period when interested parties (eg Virgin) could make an offer, non from Lloyds made.
So I go back to my original Q at 242, taking account of the Osbourne comment
"So what would the Tory remedy have caused if not a catastrohe for the British Banking sector and the domino effect on other banks.
So does anyone still feel the Tories were right? "
Complain about this comment
243 Grandantidote
On letting Northern Rock fail.
Take a look at this article by the city editor of today's Evening Standard.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-business/article-23558554-details/Hank+puts+us+to+shame+in+handling+the+crisis/article.do
The Americans let Lehman Brothers fail as a warning.
People on the street had their savings in Northern Rock - so this calls for a different approach compared to the US and Lehmans.
In my view this would have been better government approach:
1. Make very public statements that Government were prepared to let Northern Rock fail and that a solution should come from the markets.
2. Behind the scenes arrange a firesale of NR to another company.
3. Ensure that competition commission rules are waived or there is an upfront plan to act on competition rules once NR had been stabilised.
4. Using government funds, provide a loan on very, very favourable terms to the purchasing company to ensure there was sufficient financial liquidity in the rescuer bank.
I hope the Conservatives shake up our approach to regulation of the finance sector and relevant government policies. A good start would be to get some heavy hitting financiers with long term track record in the city in post in key roles within Government departments and agencies.
Complain about this comment
#255 dhimmi
I agree with you and would like to add something else to your list.
Not content with damaging our children by exposing them to "target oriented" schools at five years old, Brown wants to get hold of the poor babes at the tender age of two, and inflict upon them the politically correct, doctrines which are destroying our youth. Obviously, he thinks if he gets them young enough they can be moulded into future clones of Miliband, Harman and the whole nightmarish cavalcade of Nu Labour.
Complain about this comment
#245
ok, that may be true (at least there is a valid discussion to be had on whether that is the case). Best to understand that the UK does have lower debt though, and the "US saved for a rainy day, whereas Brown frittered it away" argument is completely false.
I've set out what the level of debt is based on analysis from the IFS Green Budget 2008 in many previous threads (which is what got RobinJDs goat).
On quite conservative assumptions on the split between current/capital spend on PFI projects (i.e. 20% future current spend; 80% capital spend - based on figures from the IFS suggesting 30% of the value of schools PFIs and 50% of the value of hospital PFIs are future current spend), and assuming there was no PFI debt in 1997, debt is lower than it was in 1997 - by 0.3% GDP (not by much, but these are conservative assumptions remember).
Your points on public sector pensions commitments are valid (though I suspect that the politicians will eventually renege on said commitments once they start to bite), as are comments on the lack of transparency (and associated lack of trust) in PFI figures. I think an independent institution that can verify public finance figures and push for such transparency will be very helpful in getting this trust - though could be another hated quango for you :)
#250
While we haven't had a recession, we have still had business cycles - just far shallower ones than at any time in history, and far shallower ones than most countries in the OECD. Sound economic management or luck is difficult to judge - I think probably a bit of both (at least it is clear that economic management has not been disasterous over the past 11 years). And deficit financing during downswings is perfectly valid and part of sound macroeconomic management. A lot of Government borrowing has been due to massive (and long overdue) increases in investment in infrastructure to deal with the 18 years of disinvestment under the previous Government. The current budget in the last cycle was balanced (if you believe the Government and some analysts) or almost balanced, at least to a larger degree than in previous cycles, (according to the Conservative party and some analysts). Labour have largely increased taxes to fund the increases in current spending they have made. A small structural current deficit appears to have emerged now, which the Government began dealing with in their last spending review.
The Government is 'badly placed' in a political sense because of the constraints it bound itself with through its more responsible approach to managing the public finances. The (artificial) debt ceiling is going to bite. It's not badly placed in reality - our low debt (compared with others e.g. the US) leaves us equipped to take action if Labour decides the political embarassment of exceeding the debt ceiling is not too high.
The Government's approach to managing the public finances and the economy, while not perfect, is an improvement on that of the previous government. We used to be "the sick man of Europe" - don't hear much of that any more. We used to have wildly volatile economic cycles - since 1997, whave less fluctuations in the economy than all but 3 countries of the OECD (from what I remember of research I have seen).
While you can disagree with the political decisions the Government made to increase spending, increase tax, decrease poverty, institute a minimum wage, increase regulation, increase investment etc (and remember these were voted in 3 times in 1997, 2001 and 2005 against their alternatives), the fiscal irresponsibility argument doesn't really wash through most of the 1997-2008 period - though maybe you have more of a point in the last couple of years (but the eye-wateringly tight CSR settlement and real public pay cuts are designed to reign this in).
I'm not being partisan in this - it's my attempt at an objective view of the facts. May not get my arguments far on here - it's easier to see things in black and white and believe what the right-wing media says.
Complain about this comment
Going through the blogs, I am as usual amused at how excited some contributers become, and how rude they sound. I'm sure, that face to face they would never insult their fellows in such a manner. It seems that by donning a nom de plume, they also discard all control, and rant and rage. In my long distant youth, I remember a famous radio and newspaper character, Gilbert Harding. He was known as the rudest man in England, and naturally adored by millions. Maybe we should award a Gilbert Harding Memorial Prize to certain bloggers. With such sensitive moderators as are now employed, I dont know that Harding would have been able to get away with all he said. A pity, because he brightened the often dull post-war days with his brilliant wit.
Complain about this comment
253. grandantidote and Red Derek
Go gis a reply to 206
Complain about this comment
Amongst Gordon Brown's other 'minor' errors were the removal of Tax Relief on Dividends which screwed my generations Pensions (why should any Politician worry about theirs as they are guaranteed and index linked) In Addition Mr Brown sold off our Gold Reserves at rock bottom prices.
Hardly the actions of a prudent operator!
I think it is high time that someone raised the above items, which never seem to be mentioned plus telling Politicians (of all Parties) that they need to follow on from the changes in the City and become 'honest', seen not to have their noses in the trough, fill in expenses sheets for all their expenses (as we in Business have to do for our Accounts) and finally understand that they work for us - not the other way round.
Complain about this comment
254 shellingout, I disn't see any humour in your post unless I was to say it was all a laugh.
Yes I can be as rude and offensive as anyone on here if needs must, its not my natural nature to be offensive but I am afraid that I come under two headings one, I believe in calling a spade a spade.
Two I dont suffer fools gladly. I wasn't in any sense rude to you in fact I went out of my way to be nice to you in the time that I had available.
As for the other guys I think that most of them realised that I was fooling around if they didn't then their the ones without humour. you see my friend these guys will rip shreds off me at the first opportunity. as they have done before they dont need you to defend them their more than capable of defending themselves,.
I must say though Shellingout if you would like to look at all the posts that I have wrote today, go on have a look, you will find that if you put all the what you would call nasty thing that I have said together they fall quite short of the way you have insulted me on 254. but dont you worry old chap I learnt from experience any one with a opposite view to a Tory you can expect that they will try to make you look the bad guy, before you shoot your mouth of about me being rude as I say take a look at your own post and quite a few of the other Tory posts on here,but insulting a socialist doesn't count does it thats why we see all the offensive remarks about GB, thats typycally Tory.
Complain about this comment
#261
Fair point to an extent.
Though it has to be said that the UK did do better than many other Western economies in the late 90s/early 00s though, which does to me suggest that the Government were right to claim some credit (low volatility, higher levels of growth, no recession after the Asian crisis/dotcom bust). They weren't the disasterous socialist nightmare of the infamous "New Labour, New Danger" 'demon Tony' posters that we were warned about.
As for now, we should remember that this is the worst crisis in capitalism for a long time, and that other countries are struggling more than the UK at the moment. A lot of the financial troubles have been imported from the US - there's not much Gordon Brown as Chancellor could have done to limit exposure to sub-prime American mortgage debt, or influence the decisions of international government short of imposing capital controls and/or tight regulation.
Not an argument I remember hearing from the Tories (or can forsee hearing from them in the future), in fact quite the reverse I think. I thought in their view the regulation we had was too much and stifling creativity, and any attempt to limit or tax obscene bonuses was 'the politics of envy'.
Complain about this comment
#262
So, selling off gold was a political decision by Minister's rather than a largely technocratic one from officials?
I find that difficult to believe. If experts advising the Government had predicted gold's value would increase at the time, do you think the sale would have happened?
I think its a bit of a different mistake than policy decisions to throw away £3 billion+ of public money to speculators and exacerbating recession by 15% interest rates during the ill-fated 1992 attempt to keep the pound in the ERM at an over-valued rate.
How about credit for a technocratic masterstroke as well - the auction of 3G licenses. The US made very little from their botched auction. The UK - unbelievable success. Again, little to do with politicians.
Complain about this comment
How do you square the circle?
Carrots
If you imagine the circle is a clock.......
you put a pencil point at 10'o'clock
and two o'clock
you then put pencils points at 7o'clock
and 5o'clock
you then join the pencil points with vertical and horizontal movements....hey presto...
BY the square mile and the plumb...Carrots
Complain about this comment
Why does no one ask the question re capping the numbers of immigrants, EU and outside EU. Unemployment figures will inevitably increase substantially in this economic crisis and the question must arise as to available job situations. Milliband never even touched on immigration in his speech as Foreign Secretary.
Complain about this comment
Phoenixarisen @260 wrote:
"Going through the blogs, I am as usual amused at how excited some contributers become, and how rude they sound. I'm sure, that face to face they would never insult their fellows in such a manner."
Dear Phoenixarisen , I can assure you that I am much ruder in person. But only to those 'folks' that deserve it.
It has has been said (by Oscar?) that the definition of a gentleman is "one who never insults anyone unintentionally". I hope that I act accordingly.
Complain about this comment
Apparently I am currently unable to post. Of course, if this works then there must be some other problem!
Complain about this comment
Update - apparently I can post, a bit, but when I try and give a (lengthy) response to grandantidote, nothing gets through. Is there now a word limit on here?
Complain about this comment
Grandantidote
The gist of what I want to say is that, looking at posts 50, 191 and 213, you clearly ARE claiming to speak for all pensioners. You use the word 'we' which you object to so strongly in post 3.
Also, on education. Grow up, accept you were wrong, and accept that teachers actually want to teach the breadth and depth of their subject, but have been railroaded for the last 20 years or so into teaching to the test. This has led to students understanding 'how to pass' the test, and not understanding 'why it works'.
And yes, I did say 20 years. I do blame the previous Tory administration as well.
Complain about this comment
We, the British public, did not elect Gordon Brown.
Eleven years ago the Labour government was voted in and Tony Blair became the great hope of the people. He was charismatic and seemed more in touch with the ordinary man and woman in the country. However, he spent much of his time getting on and off planes and showing off on the world's stage leaving the people of this country to just get on with it. Those who were socialist became disillusioned with him as his "new Labour" seemed to be more in line with Tory policy. Those who liked him for other reasons soon became disenchanted with him. Meanwhile back at the ranch (remember, he is seen frequently on the news as jetting about the world), the British people were getting into debt, becoming greedy, living on credit and to cap it all millions, yes millions of foreigners saw this as a land of milk and honey for them (their words not mine) and arrived here unchecked. Some of them were indeed good for the country but others came from lawless lands and got benefits, houses, etc. whilst the infrastructure started to bend. Our hospitals, school, police force, roads etc. all bore the brunt of this unchecked immigration. But Tony Blair was laughing his way around the world and palling up with Bush to start a war which put us in even more jeopardy from terrorists. Those Muslims here who had hitherto been inegrated are now looked at with suspicion by all. There is horrendous knife crime in fragmented areas around our cities perpetrated by young men mostly who do not have decent families who have taught them right from wrong.
We voiced our displeasure at Blair and he eventually stepped down and a "caretaker" in the form of Brown took over to keep it all in the Labour family.
Brown is stubborn, loves the power, and a control freak. Does he love this country?
What made me a strong supporter of Edward Heath (for all his faults and foibles) was that he stood up and strongly announced "I love this country". Can a Scot truly say that?
All we want is for somebody to state the same and to be honest and upright caring - as a good father - for the country and doing what is in our best interest.
David Cameron has a strong and loyal team around him. They have waited in the wings and observed and researched so much that they are now ready to govern.
They love this country but have learned not to be arrogant or let power go to their heads. They will not be complacent.
David Cameron is strong enough to make the tough decisions that will need to be made. And he loves this country.
He will restore it to a good and decent place with a society that my father and grandfather fought for in two World Wars.
David Cameron will keep the home fires burning!
This "new world order" spoken of by Brown - is it just social engineering? It seems very sinister. Is it a fait accompli organised behind our backs? Are we to lose our heritage and identity and become "one world"? It just wouldn't work! Do a Google search on it - scary!
And to Brown, I say, "Mr Brown, the British people don't want you, let alone many of your own government. We did not elect you -get out of town by sundown!"
Complain about this comment
re: 265 balhamu
The 3g selloff was a disaster; it meant that phone bills ended up much larger for people than they otherwise would have been, and also meant that (as it was so over-priced) the phone companies won't invest in new technology again unless they get massive help from the public purse.
The money was totally squandered, and it left the phone companies in a situation where they are now scared to invest in anything new.
Complain about this comment
re: 265 balhamu
Apart from selling the gold off at a low price, a core issue was that Brown was stupid enough to announce before the sale that he was about to flood the market with tons of cheap gold; not the most intelligent things to do, and kind of sums up why so many people think he's simply an idiot who has no understanding about basic maths/economics.
Complain about this comment
Ever watch "Little Britain"? Soon all over the land, little horrors will be banging away at their new computers provided by the poor taxpayers, and muttering, "Computer says No." Still, on the positive side, it will help educational targets. The teachers will have great results as the pupils simply down load sample exam papers, together with essays and everybody will be happy.
Complain about this comment
213 grawth, You really are clutching at straws. you say that I insult people, well I guess occasionally I do but they are almost always people who have insulted me.
You in post 271 are just begging to be insulted but I will do my best not to do that.
First let me make it clear that I had not intended that we should remove the word "we" from the English language just to question its use when it infers that everyone agrees with the writer when they clearly dont.
The examples you have given certainly dont stand up to that criteria.
Your first selection clearly means that people that disagree with him would be unlikely to vote for him, I think thats a reasonable statement to make.
Its no different to saying we Tories are not going to vote for Gordon Brown, or dont you think so?
50.
"well think again my friend millions of people totally disagree with you so please dont believe that we would elect you to vote on our behalf."
_________________
Belowly
silly as I think that on reflection you will agree. so its really no point in referring to it, just read it in the context that its written.
191
"We on here like to have a go at one and other and thats a part of the hurly burly of these blogs and may I dare say the fun that we all enjoy of passing our opinions on to other people, after all who else is going to listen to us, we are privileged to have from our homes a more or less captive audience or as captive as we are likely to get."
__________________
Below
Now come on now I was in fact speaking from my personal point of view, I dont think their are many pensioners that would disagree that we could do with a little more cash. I doubt if there are many ex working class pensioners that would disagree that we are better off than we would have been under the Tory administation, the 75p was a mistake from sticking to the tory set up and Labour apologised for that immediately.
The Tories have promised to remove the winter fuel allowance set up by the labour party and strongly apposed by the Tories.
But to be fair thats the closest that you got.
213
we can do with a little more cash but we are certainly better of than under the tories.
__________________
I added one that you missed, do you want to comment on that?. 263
but insulting a socialist doesn't count does it thats why we see all the offensive remarks about GB, thats typycally Tory.
So now as well as the following from the man who considers insulting people to be totally out of order and yet finds it quite acceptable to tell a socialist blogger.
"You clearly have no sense of humour, no common sense and no brains!"and now
Grow up, accept you were wrong,
Maybe it just me but does anyone else think theirs something a little contradictory in what you say.
_________________
But forget that, all the experts on education that have been asked their opinion on the exams that I seen on TV disagree with you entirely.
So should I grow up and believe you or shall I believe these guys and gals.
I dont know about you but my Grandchildren can run circles around me when it comes to computers video's and I P 3s. I guess thats their future and I am only a very small part of it.
I think you should have a long and careful think before using the derogatory terms that you used to condenm someone for what you percieve as insults,but I forgive you.
All grammatical typing and spelling errors intended.
Complain about this comment
272 Flame patricia,
"We, the British public, did not elect Gordon Brown."
Been discussed a dozen or more times if you believe that GB is not the democraticaly elected PM of this country , then dont expect that the rest of your post will be accepted by too many with any credibility.
Do you honestly believe that if your argument had any foundation that the Tories would have just sat there and accepted it.
Do you think he just walked into the debating chamber and said "OK you guys I've decided that I'm going to be Prime Minister, and I dont want no arguments and the other what is it 364 members all mumbled to one another "well I guess if he says he is then he must be" it's like a scene from the "Life of Brian"
You see Grawth there's that WE again
Complain about this comment
Sorry I haven't a clue whatyou mean Grand Antidote. Who speaks English like "I don't want no arguments"? I thought Gordon Brown had a uni. education but perhaps not ...
Are you perhaps a little confused? It may be difficult for you to articulate your feelings. Sorry.
Complain about this comment
Ah, I think I can unravel what you are trying to say. You say that Brown is actually democratically elected? Do you think the Labour government had anybody else up for it at the time? Er, no. Now, get back to the millions of us in the country. Did we elect him - NO NO NO! I don't think you are reading from the same hymn sheet as the rest of us. :(
Complain about this comment
272 flame patricia, your not Mrs Cameron are you.
after my previous post to you I thought well to be fair I should read what she has to say,so I did, apart from the fact it would be as I suspected, it was. a absolute load of hogwash God were did you pick up all that nonsense. I am afraid that It doesn't warrant appraisal.
From the many points that I think are really and I mean really stupid was your remark about GBs statement "I love this country" and you had the audacity to ask "can a Scot truly say that" this is not only a truly objectionable insult to Scotland but also to Wales, and Ireland, and even more so to the lads who are fighting side by side and did in the two world wars that your grandfather and father took part in.
They were and are giving their lives for the country they love, hang your head in shame and ask your dad if he thought that the Welsh my country the Scots and the Irish who fought with him loved the mother country.
Complain about this comment
#273 "The 3G sell-off was a disaster"
How do you work that out?
Are you trying to say that private companies were unable to estimate the value of these licenses? And that the Government would have done a better job?
Can we apply that to other fields? What about Government setting the price of other goods and services as well?
Government devised a mechanism where (the efficient) private sector were forced to reveal their true valuation of the 3G licenses. Your argument is the private sector misvalued the licenses. Therefore your argument is that Government should have sold these licenses at a fixed (below-market) price to favoured bidders.
Isn't this kind of intervention to manipulate market prices how communism worked?
Complain about this comment
278 flame patricia Oh! thats been tried before, you must have led a very sheltered life, of course you have, now I can see why your post is so absurd.
What a stange life you must live if your unable to understand us umble folk,
In answer to your question who speaks english like this, well probably half the population of the country, I suppose being a tory toff if any one can believe that, your probably a snotty nosed kid of a council estate in Bradford or somewhere similar.
You do know what a snotty nosed kid is dont you or should I have said do you or is it don't you, if you don't know what that is or would you like me to unravel it for you. I shall.
Don't try the grammatical thing Patsy its been tried by much cleverer people than you and they have only ended up looking rather silly you see it's been tried tested and found wanting.
279 I take back all I said, [Like hell I do], so you are a clever girl to be able to unravel
"I dont want any arguments" you must have had a university education, is that what you mean by uni education, gosh who speaks like that, nevertheless you worked it out all by yourself or did you need help
what a clever girl you are, dad and grandad must be very proud of you and rightly so.
"Do you think the Labour government had anybody else up for it at the time? Er, no."
You of course have first hand knowledge of that I take it. If he was unapposed then he autimatically becomes leader of his party which is the democratically elected party to serve for the four to five years as decided by the now leader of the reigning party, that is fact, since he is the accepted leader of the ruling party he becomes the prime minister, now you come to that often misused little word that uni students love a word that for you encompasses everyone "we" if you will allow a old man to just make a little correction,
"Now, get back to the millions of us in the country. Did we elect him - NO NO NO!.
That should read,and I quote,
"Now, get back to the millions of us Tories in the country. Did we elect him - NO NO NO!.
now doesn't that sound more honest?.
"I don't think you are reading from the same hymn sheet as the rest of us. :("
There you see you've done it again,
as the" rest of us Tories"it should read, you don't, as much as you obviously would like too speak generally for us.
After reading your post 272 I certainly don't want to read from the same hymn sheet as you.
Finally your pearl of a statement,
David Cameron will keep the home fires burning!
Well I dont know about fires burning but it will certainly keep me laughing for a while.
All grammatical and typing errors fully intentional.
Complain about this comment
Well grandantidote, it seems you have me confused with someone else, because the quote about having no sense of humour and no brains wasn't me!
As for education (again), let's try a few actual facts. Exam boards have now admitted that GCSEs are easier now than they were. Exam boards have admitted that GCSE's are easier than O Levels were, and they have admitted that A Levels are also easier than they were. That is also the strong impression of most teachers that I know and have worked with. I trust them.
Just by the by, common sense would suggest that it is easier to pass a course where the content has been split into 6 parts, each examined independently, each of which can be retaken, than to pass a course where there is a single exam covering all 2 years with no simple retake option, or would you like to disagree with that too.
And so you know, telling you to grow up was because, in response to me giving you actual opinions from actual teachers, all you could find to say was "you only have your selves to blame, unless you wanted Gordon to come and hold your hands". Hardly a reasoned and well thought out reply now was it! You might as well have said "Yah boo sucks to you" which is about as effective an argument. So yes, grow up, or stop making childish comments.
Complain about this comment
Well, Grandiddy you obviously have not one but two chips on your shoulders due no doubt to your disadvantaged upbringing. Now some people with such backgrounds go on to improve and do well and others sit and seeth which can be dangerous. This blog is supposed to be what we think of present policitical events and not a personal attack. I do not wish to speak to you again and I can't understand your grammar anyway. No doubt the feeling is mutual.
End of story.
Complain about this comment
283 grawth , first let me apologise for the
first item you mention, yes I did get you mixed up with Shellingout who said those rather rude things to me.
I have to say that I had about the poorest education that a child could have and have never had a days schooling since, so I am afraid that I am certainly not the right person to cross swords with over education.
Apart from that I am a keen observer of what goes on around me and take a keen interest in some things and a mild interest in others, education being one of the others.
I base my comments generally on my observations, I dont read newspapers, I am often requested to read some person or other on the internet which I seldom do, I am afraid that my life experience has taught me that people only write what they want to believe and are as we all are influenced by their personal beliefs whether it be politics or whatever.
I tend not to read them, my opinion of authors whether for newpapers or books are merely guys like you and I giving their opinion about this or that, as I say it isn't gospel.
I see on hear from time to time reams of statistics telling you one thing the next minute there are reams of statistics telling you the oposite so I tend to ignore them also.
As I say what little knowledge I have is based on observation and reading between the lines and excercising what little nous that I have to the best of my ability.
Anyway having said that you obviously have more knowledge of education than I but that doesn't alter the fact that many experts interviewed on TV disagree with you.
Your third paragraph ,I am not sure if your saying its a good idea,which I agree, or a bad Idea which I dont. I hope that answers your question.
Your fourth paragraph, well I dont apologise for there was a little banter going on which Shelling Out failed to recognise and I was under a little fire from one or two of the bloggers including yourself, the consequence of that is that some of my replies were a little facetious, for as I say I make no apologies.
If you step into the bull ring you have to fight the bull if you know what I mean. I'm quite sure my remarks to you regarding holding hands was no more offensive than you telling a twenty stone 77 year old man to grow up I'm afraid that after a certain age you start growing down old boy as you may findout, anway good luck to you and your wife. You know these blogs are just a game or you should.
Complain about this comment
284 flamepatricia, Sorry my dear it doesn't work like that, if you have a big mouth and voice an opinion then you have to be prepared to have it challenged, by all and sundry, you dont get to pick and choose.
How old are you with your silly childish atitude Iwould guess at thirteen maybe fourteen.
No I have no chips on my shoulders I kicked them of when I was about your age you should try it you might become a little more courteous.
Incidentally I've never had a seeth in my life I thought that was only available to the middle classes the working classes just get on with it, something else you might try.
You have know idea what I have done with my life and you have no idea whether I did well or not.
"I do not wish to speak to you again and I can't understand your grammar anyway"
Well my child you must be pretty dim,
perhaps I could refer you to line2 of your post
Eleven years ago the Labour government was voted in and Tony
I know i'm pretty thick but shouldn't that read ,The Labour government "were" voted in.
line21
Those Muslims here who had hitherto been inegrated are now
shouldn't that read
The Muslims here who had hitherto been
"intergrated" are now.
You are right these blogs are supposed to be for what we think of present political events. not as you say "policitical"events,
but there are no political events which is what I think you meant to say in your post just a list of Tory wishes.
So you dont understand my grammer, well
Patsy your going to have a thin time of it on here because it doesn't get that much better, and with your attitude they'll eat you alive on here.
By the way do they teach you in uni that was is better than were and is that the way they spell intergrated perhaps I should go back to school to find the right way to spell these words when did they change it to
inegrated, and they have changed political to policitical now I wonder why they did that.
Dont you worry though I want hold your poor grammer and spelling against you,
and since I have never spoken to you we are not likely to speak again,I might send another post through.
Take a little advice from a old man my dear
Get over yourself. I know its hard to be umble when you perfick ain't it.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
286. grandantidote
See youre making friends again.
Any more and youll be as popular as Brown.
Complain about this comment
265. balhamu
Ref Gold sale:
Interesting that the treasury tried to block an application from the Times to get a copy of the advice from the BOE.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1654931.ece
Complain about this comment
286:
You're nothing short of a big bully grandy. Are you this charming in real life?
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
On Sky News tonight David Cameron answers all those critics who have been asking where he has been these last two weeks and addresses a few porkies relating to him which were propagated at The Labour Party Conference. He will also be launching a few broadsides at Gordon Brown who denies all responsibility for our present financial troubles. Should be interesting.
Complain about this comment
The reason Brown looks relaxed is because finally he can have a mandate to be a little more socialist. Unregulated free markets have proven not to work, spectacularly so. This is the time for Brown to be Brown. It is clearly not the time for Conservatives to come in with their love of free markets. Brown is happy because there is no credible opposition. Labour will win the next election with Brown as leader as we NEED him. We definately do not need George Osbourne and his smirking public school boys holding the reigns of power.
Its time for you journalists to do your job and hold up the Tories to the light so we can see exactly what they are made of.
Complain about this comment
Oh, missed that Miss Waldorf - we went to see Lee Mead in Joseph which was fantastic and great to see people enjoying themselves rather than being depressed about the financial situation etc. Albeit it for a short while, but respite nevertheless!
Yes, porkies is a nice word for GB's transgressions.
Have you seen all the uploaded videos made by the general public on the Conservatives website? It's good to talk!
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
288 carrots, I just love the products of unmarried mothers dont you.
Complain about this comment
New world, new Brown, old Chancellor.
Nick do us a favor, the next time you speak to this guy please remind him that he was chancellor for 10 years... and that he was a novice once.
Complain about this comment
297 screegrid That implies that you think Gordon is now a fully qualified chancellor and of course your right.
Complain about this comment
292 miss Waldorf, What porkies were they then nigella be more explicit,
Complain about this comment
sporran typo!
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS