Life change for Kelly
How very curious. In the early hours of this morning it was confirmed that Ruth Kelly was leaving her job as transport secretary, the reason, it was said, was for family reasons. It is clear that this is not the timing that Ms Kelly would have chosen.
Downing Street are already denying suggestions that they released the news in order to reduce its impact. The official statement makes clear that Ms Kelly's decision is for family reasons.
It's certainly true that she's talked to friends of making a "life change" saying she's done her time and that the family needs her more. Indeed she asked Gordon Brown four months ago to leave the government; he asked her to stay on until the next reshuffle.
So why the mystery then? Well it is well known that Ruth Kelly was among those most unhappy with the direction of the Labour Party under Gordon Brown. Indeed some cabinet colleagues had talked of joining her in a group resignation in order to make a statement about Gordon Brown's leadership and possibly to help precipitate a leadership contest.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~44~RS~)
CommentsSign in
You need to sign in to contribute to this page. If you're new to BBC Blogs, creating your membership is quick and easy.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Perhaps the timing was to take the headlines away from the sell-off of British Energy to EDF.
The last bit of the family silver has been sold to the French government.
Complain about this comment
For those without a sense of humour... a serious point.
Isn't it rich that politicians can make these choices (to give up well paying jobs).
While the general public can nolonger even expect to retire -- to pay for Labours profligancy we can only look forward to working till we drop into the grave.
Complain about this comment
Goodbye.
Complain about this comment
After the Independent explicitly stated that talk of cabinet ministers plotting a coup was complete junk, how can I believe a single word you're saying, Nick? I've caught the BBC being selective and biased on a few headlines recently when the underlying facts painted a much more settled picture. Now, you expect us to believe in a group resignation?
Dude, people make "life changes". Your wife is a relationship councillor so should know that. Plus, I had one of those moments myself a few years ago. It's something people do. I'm not going to blow my personal life over the net but there's plenty of high profile BBC employees that have done similar things and people aren't suggesting the DG is on the skids.
I'm actually pretty relaxed about the government, now. I think, their idea of nuanced policy reasoning is exactly right, and some more constructive scrutiny of the opposition might be helpful. Folks need room to breath and a positive nudge, and all I'm seeing off you recently is razzle dazzle and the Dummies Guide to Machiavelli. One of us needs a holiday and I don't really care which at the moment.
Complain about this comment
"She remained "a fan" of his, he added" (ie brown said)
So Gordon Brown doesn't have colleagues anymore, he has "fans". Sounds about right for a despot.
How arrogant is it to call your colleagues your "fans" ? It goes to show just how deluded/mad he really is.
Kind of sums him up really.
I don't blame Ruth Kelly for leaving, although I don't think it was fair for Brown to push her out just a few days before a reshuffle just to deflect the media from his own problems.
Complain about this comment
"Leaving for family reasons" - good set of political weasel words there. What's the *real* reason, then?
Tata Ruth, don't let the door hit you on the backside as you leave.
Complain about this comment
Lest readers forget:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4190115.stm
Glad to see the back of her.
Complain about this comment
A perfect example of an incompetent Blair babe who made one of the worst presentations of policy to the House in decades.
Her half baked introduction of HIPs made her a laughing stock. They are still not working just like all the other half baked government interventionist rubbish. Tried buying a house recently? The agent's always claim the HIP is 'on the way'.
Is it a surprise she has resigned? isn't the more pertinent question...does Gordon Brown have a problem with women in his cabinet?...his furious rebukes of Harmann and her kitchen cabinets during the summer...the feuding of Hazel Blears and the Blairites against Gordon, Jacqui and her amazing dancing Smiths being forced to defend 42 day detention against her will (see her performance on ANdrew Marr? - this was not her idea)
The inner 'workings' of the Brown government appear to be dominated by a Praetorian guard of PR men who don't know what each other is saying or thinking and Gordon firing off e-mails an calling innocent members of the public at four in the morning asking them if they like him.
Is it any wonder that she has walked out on this supreme dystopia?
Complain about this comment
As someone who struggled as a single-parent to juggle work with the increasing needs of my children as they grew up, I can understand Ruth Kelly's decision for personal reasons alone. Remaining as an MP she is still going to have a juggling act to do.
Whether she has "other" reasons, only she can know, although she has been noticeably "quiet" since GB took over as leader...
As a taxi driver, I just wish we could now have a Transport Minister with both staying power and a commitment to overhaul the antiquated and mixed up laws relating to our trade - which do little for either passengers or those working in the industry - maybe then the police and others would begin to understand the law and enforce it!
Complain about this comment
Nothing to do with the looming and potentially destructive row over speed cameras and other autocop devices being more expensive to run and less efficient than actually having real police on the road doing the job properly in the first place I'd wager.
Another nail in the coffin of NuLabours techno dream of driving down public sector pay.
So much money spent, so many people criminalised, no change in the number of people being killed each year ...yes, I think I'd be out of there a bit quick as well if I realised the excrement was about to hit the air extractor.
Complain about this comment
I have never been happy about having supernaturalists in the government.
Complain about this comment
"Spending more time with the family."
What a weasily little phrase.
Wasn't it Norman Fowler who first used it, and then promptly took on some lucrative directorships?
They lie to gain office, they lie in office, and they cannot even leave office honestly.
What vile people we have to lead us.
Complain about this comment
#3. So one card just fell out of the wobbling house that Brown built.
With luck more will follow, though it's hard to imagine Ruth Kelly having many "friends" who would follow her lead in any direction whatever.
Complain about this comment
She will always be in our hearts. I think my favourite Ruth Kelly moment was when I saw her in Parliament. So passionate. So driven. So Ruth.
I loved the way you could say her name in a Scottish accent, I loved the way she grew her hair and most of all I loved her faith.
To give up ones career for your family (and nothing to do with the embryology bill or Gordon Brown) is admirable- she will always be the Transport Secretary of my heart.
Goodbye, and close the door behind you.
Complain about this comment
By the way, yes, Old Rocker she is leaving a high profile position in government due to speed cameras. That makes total sense.
Complain about this comment
Given Labour constantly bang on about the gender pay gap - Ms Kelly resigning is rather ironic. If she returns to politics in 10 years time she can hardly expect to be in the same position financially as if she'd continued working
Complain about this comment
Bye Ruth, you've bumbled your way through Treasury, Education, Communities and Transport.
Ruth of all trades, Mistress of absolutely none.
I wouldn't trust you to change a nappy!
Complain about this comment
#13 brings up a good point - I seem to recall David Blunkett taking up a job with an ID card firm when he resigned the second time.
Is it not time that MPs were banned from taking on other roles? Surely being an MP is a full-time job, whether you're in the cabinet or not. We're certainly paying them full-time wages. That's without even getting into the argument over possible/inevitable conflicts of interest - an MP should be dedicated to working for their electorate, not businesses.
Complain about this comment
What mystery?
You haven't said what the mystery is, Nick. The only mystery I can see is why you are looking for a story here.
Complain about this comment
GOOD RIDDANCE !
So Kelly resigns from her well paid position and no doubt benefits from a superb inflation-proof pension.
Let us all remember that as the sidekick "fan" and Secretary to the Treasury when Brown was Chancellor, she joined him as a serial denier of guilt on Equitable Life. She refused - continually - to help those robbed of their basic pension due the Brown's FSA incompetence.
... and we are still awaiting Brown's answer to the Ombudsman's recommendation of malpractice and incompetence "in the Autumn".
Kelly ought to have been sacked years ago. She didn't as she was compliant in all things bad with this unelected PM.
Complain about this comment
I wonder how many other cabinet ministers will be deciding to, "spend more time with their family," in the next few weeks.
Of course if they carry on under Brown they'll all be, "spending time with their families," come the election.
Complain about this comment
I'm relieved that she is gone. All her focus was on Terminal 5 and getting another runway at Heathrow. No real consideration for the railways. Good timing though to lessen the impact of the EDF news (which should really be the main headline BBC honestly!). What isn't mentioned is that GBs brother works for EDF (I think in the PR bit?). So overall good for Family Brown but a dangerous precedent for the UK. Though admittedly it is what an open market is all about.
Complain about this comment
Who cares.
Why such a comment, well its quite simple. What he she done for me.
Nothing but more wasted taxpayers money and more stealth taxes.
Another government person leaving and will in the end get the golden handshake pension.
Will I get the same protected pension.
No.
Complain about this comment
Best news is she got Gordon Brown off the front pages.. he can't even make a speech to his own party conference and get any airtime.
Well done Ruth, someone who will stand up to the clunking bully.
Complain about this comment
ramilas1 - to be fair, she was the one who had to pick up the pieces of the 'HIPs' fiasco after the mess had been caused by Yvette Cooper, so I think it only fair to apportion the blame for that where it belongs..
A shame she is going as it will deprive Steve Bell of a rich seam of humour to be mined..
Mind you, I said that when Charles Clarke stepped down, and he seems to keep resurfacing..
Complain about this comment
Sets a useful precedent. I mean Brown has a young family, Cameron has a young family and, if you believe his claims, Clegg probably has quite a large young family.
Now who is there in politics today who spots major events before they happen, speaks sense and doesn't have a young family?
Got it - Vince Cable.
Time for Cameron to go shopping for a big tent maybe?
Complain about this comment
I would be delighted to see a religiouis extremist leaving active politics if it were not for the fact that there are far too many others wating in the wings who are all too keen to impose their religious views on all of us.
Complain about this comment
#16, obviously not to you podlover98, but then I would think you'll be voting Labour again at the next opportunity.
I guess it all depends on how you view wasting millions if not billions on a project that isn't fulfilling it's mission statement.
But we'll leave that debate until it hits the headlines.
Complain about this comment
The timing of her departure announcement is unhelpful for Gordon.
When the current mood of relief and celebration among party members and trade unionists fades look out for more surprises.
The problem for gordon is that he is in political no mans land - not a Blairite believer and not Labour left.
He is, ironically, more like a banker or may be something that sounds like that!
Complain about this comment
Nick,
I think that this is about Harriet Harman and the government policy on abortion.
I think we will find some others leaving the government in the reshuffle, I think you already know the names, I think I do to, but we mustn't breach any scoops must we. It will also be over abortion but that will not be said at the time. They can no longer go along with what is happening.
I think that these politicians do have principles, but we mustn't let that get in the way of keeping Gordon as the PM. The right man for todays problems, a serious man.
In the meantime I thought that it was interesting that David Millibland should have refrred to the Heseltine moment to one of the BBC reporters, although it has of course been denied.
Why do I say that, well you did a blog, a good one on 'Lots of Work for Kremlinologists' I made various comments about Mr Millibland and I think that these were picked-up by his researchers. It was #76 1:14 on 15/9/08, and I quote it below:
'I hear that the editors on the Radio 4 news at one have even picked up on this quotes business 'He who wields the knife never wears the crown'.
Some of us were quoting Shakespeare and I think that more people read your blog than 'they' care to say.
Complain about this comment
I remember mentioning Ruth Kelly to one of my idiot politicians from another party and he went off like a firecracker. That guy really, really hated her. He wouldn't admit it but it's cuz she was doing such a great job he couldn't get his nose in the door.
Can you imagine what was going through his mind. On every policy issue, Ruth Kelly would have it nailed and it would be Ruth this, and Ruth that. He must've been screaming and waking up in cold sweats from his reaction. Heh.
Dunno why she waent all Catholic over the embryo thing. Buddhism suggests the quality of conciousness is in everything to some degree or another. It's squares all the circles and is hyper relaxed about it. Hey, maybe she's converting to Zen? Nah, too easy.
Complain about this comment
The real question is the timing.Gordon Brown is battling against those are determinedly leaking things to the media to steal his thunder,such as it is.
No doubt the poor misguided fool was expecting his touchy-feely speech to be headline news this morning when it's been forgotten already because of the news about another poor misguided fool.Gordon,your speech was more Nigel Kennedy than John F Kennedy,Ruth,enjoy the free time you have with your kids in whatever career you pursue after the next General Election.
Complain about this comment
Can I say "Good riddance to bad rubbish" without getting moderated?
Complain about this comment
Nick,
Most of your contributers appear to accept that the Prime Minister will be beaten at the next election. Perhaps its time to concentrate on the likely successor, the song and dance man, with links to the palace, and his right hand man, young George, the wallpaper man.
They have had nothing to say about the hilarious activities of their friends in the City. Is it fair , therefore, to suggest that they are what they look, two Thatcherite inspired overgrown public schoolboys
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The fact that Kelly has not resigned under an anti-Brown banner, and indeed ticked the legendary and near-comical 'more time with her family' box, makes this a piece of reshuffle news and an interesting one at that. No-one has had a memorable exit line yet; is Brown is stronger than many like to think?
Complain about this comment
Off message I know, but quick note to thank you / webmasters for sorting out the template for your blog - it was getting annoying!
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Did a late-night plotters meeting fall through after Brown kicked their collective backside yesterday? Was she left out to dry by fellow plotters and went home in a hissy fit? Surprised this hasn't appealed to your conspiracy instincts Nick.
Either way I'll not miss her. Personally I'm tired of being lectured by upper-midddle-class women with too much education and not enough experince of the real world. She made it worse by letting her religious beliefs get in the way of her objectivity. Pity she couldn't take the dreadful Blears woman with her.
Right Gordon - yesterday was a decent start to a long road back. Ditch the chattering Islington clique, stop overloading on Scotsmen (they may be good but their presence in cabinet is becoming disproportionate) and get some credible people on board. The nearest the present Conservative leadership will get to hard times and deprivation is a poor Dom Perignon vintage. This could be easier than you think.
Complain about this comment
I'd be inclined to believe Kelly when she says she wants to spend more time with her family, IIRC she was heavily pregnant with her first child at the time of the 1997 election, I can remember being interviewed on Westminster live holding her young child. Actually Norman Fowler was right in his reasons for resigning, read his diaries and you'll see how he suddenly realised that his daughters had grown up without him seeing them, a political job is very hard on families. I'm sure though that Kelly is not happy with policies such as hybrid embryos and she will have seen the weekend's Politics Home megapoll which shows that her seat will go blue by a wide margin, it may be better to go now than end up on "The Portillo List!"
There's also a rumour that Geoff Hoon is to be sent off to Brussels. That would be stupid as it would mean a by-election in Ashfield, scene of a famous Tory by-election win in 1977 and another seat which the megapoll tips to go Tory. Our Scottish friends will know very well the ongoing farce over the appointment of former FM Jack Mc'Connell as High Commissioner to Malawi as a consolation for losing his job. He is still MSP for Motherwell and Wishaw but he can't stand down as that seat will be easy meat for the SNP in a by-election. Not even Gordon Brown is stupid enough to get into the same difficulty twice, or is he??????
Complain about this comment
Well, she'll make way for an aggressive road-pricing tsar no doubt.
Complain about this comment
Isn't it quite possible that a parent with 4 yound children has just found the burden of botha high profile and time consuming job too much? Just because she's strongly dissagreed with policies does not mean that that is the reason for her to quit.
Complain about this comment
Nick why do you keep making mountains out of molehills?
Ruth Kelly, Bolton West MP, With a Majority of 5.09%. With a swing of 2.6% to the Tories She is toast anyway.
Complain about this comment
Is she staying on as an MP?
It would be nice to have another by-election at this time.
C'mon kids: ask for mum to stay at home full time!
Complain about this comment
Wow, who'd have thought it? A politician who wants to spend time with her family.
The sad truth is that she's run out of excuses having been ineffectual or made a mess of everything she's touched.
But at least she got one thing right when she said her 'family needs her more'.
Perhaps after the next election, she could get a part time job doing HIPs before they are abolished.
Complain about this comment
She was incompetant, The country wont miss her. She should never have made it out of teaching.
And how annoying was her voice.
And for those saying the timing was interesting, It was Gordon that announced it!
What is he trying to cover up, there must be something even bigger than EDF out there, bigger than "family arent props, did you like my wife" stunt.
Tiem to go Mulder and Scully the truth is out there!
Complain about this comment
Here's a nice word for all you Brown haters.
A useful word it is too ... "Visceral" ... please see below for dictionary definition.
1. characterized by or proceeding from instinct rather than intellect: a visceral reaction.
2. characterized by or dealing with coarse or base emotions; earthy; crude: a visceral literary style.
What do you reckon? Recognise yourself?
Have a think about it anyway. Don't worry about thanking me, or about coming back with admissions or denials ... the main thing is that you start to know yourselves a little bit better.
Complain about this comment
You know when people like Ruth "Truth" Kelly abandon you.......
Well, rats leaving a sinking ship springs to mind.
Complain about this comment
No21 It may be of interest to you, however, I doubt it, that we do not elect Prime Ministers. The Head of State sends for the person most likely to command a majority in the House of Commons and asks him, or her to form a government. Looks like she got the right man.
Complain about this comment
#32
Ruth Kelly 'went all catholic' because that's what she is.
And she has every right to be. Your comments have always stretched credibility but this one caps them all.
Complain about this comment
According to our Dear Leader this morning on Radio 4's Toady programme to interprut the last ten years as a period of boom that has now been followed by bust, is to misunderstand the economic reality of the last ten years.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
I now believe that it not unreasonable to suggest that this country is now, officially, doomed!
Complain about this comment
I'm not really surprised Kelly's going. She didn't galvanise any department, as far as I could tell. However, if she were leaving on a point of principle, she should tell us.
I'm still trying to understand Brown's thinking.
He's going to legislate to prevent child poverty?
No doubt there will be a formula you can apply, but how can you legislate against poverty? You can't stop a parent taking whatever tax-credit-based payment is made and spending it on a 60inch plasma screen, instead of food or clothes. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
("Hello, hello, young person. You do realise it's against the law to be poor, don't you...")
Children aged two will have free nursery places. Covering 30 locations in year one, 60 in year two.
By the time a quarter of UK locations are covered, there will be no point in them attending, as Brown has failed to ensure power production, so the lights and heating will be off.
He "did fix the roof while the sun was shining". Roof is part of infrastructure and something that endures beyond individual worker's employment. Brown referred to more policeman, nurses, etc. But they (like all employees) are a cost-of-doing-business NOT infrastructure. Or has there been a change in accounting rules?
And he's going to create a global financial services regulatory framework? For goodness's sake, he's created enough of a mess with the attempts at a UK solution.
I don't see how you build a fair society when you deliberately withdraw a 10p tax-rate for the poorest. Still can't believe they couldn't work out a simply way to retain that for the genuine low income people. That showed a real lack of imagination.
There's a difference between having a "political vision" and hallucinating.
Complain about this comment
Charles,
did you ever think that maybe she "went all Catholic over the abortion thing" is because she is actually a Catholic?
By the way, you keep referring to Gordon as a "team builder" and interested in "harmony" and "order". It might just be worth amending that slightly. Gordon is a team player only when its his team (witness his treatment of TB and other ministers prior to the ascension of your Blessed leader). The only harmony and order he's interested in is everyone saying what he tells them to, when he tells them to, or they're out.
Not really characteristics that are regarded as admirable in my view.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
A truly loathsome woman. Good riddance.
Complain about this comment
No great loss
Complain about this comment
sagamix @49 wrote:
"Here's a nice word for all you Brown haters.
A useful word it is too ... "Visceral" .
You are so right (again!). Brown and his loathsome crew make me sick to my stomach.
Complain about this comment
It is my belief that young children should be looked after by a parent and not placed in childcare. However due to the cost of living this is no longer possible for many families who, even with both parents working full time, are still struggling to survive.
Oh how lovely that she can afford to take time off to look after her children. Over paid and incompetant, just like the rest of the party.
Complain about this comment
We dont want religious minorities running this country, they should have no role in producing or implementing legislation.
If they're catholic or budist all well and good, but if they cant be rational and objective and instead follow a set of "rules" that are outmoded and based on fiction, then they have no right to be in a position of authority.
That goes for the CofE as well, although thats really not a religious organsiation anymore.
harumph
Complain about this comment
Smart Move Ruth.
Remove yourself from a collapsing administration-return when your kids are grown up and you are still young enough and hope no-one will remember you.
So long and thanks for the HIPS
Complain about this comment
as is normal with labour "announcements" give it a couple of days and they unravel, the real problems arise, etc.
why is the government spinning over a cabinet reshuffle?
leaking details of the reshuffle before the tory conference, stage managed leaking by any chance?
ruth kelly wanted to go in may did she?
spending more time with the family etc etc etc.
how long before it immerges that she would have gone in may but was offered a role in the house of lords to stay on and keep quiet?
Complain about this comment
isn't it funny how ministers can leave and be reshuffled at the drop of a hat...yet we have to have 'a man of experience' at the helm
people should watch more yes, minister - you think the country is run by these lunatics?
Complain about this comment
Am I the only one who quite fancies her? Bit gutted to be honest.
I don't think her leaving will cover anything up, not EDF or anything else for that matter. Anything worth distracting attention from will not lose out in the news cycle to Ruth Kelly is going.
Complain about this comment
Nick I saw your interview with brown this morning he was back to his usual mr bean stuttering self.
Next time you interview him ask him not to keep looking to the left or down every few seconds, that?s a sign of evasion and being uncomfortable.
Especially noticeable when you asked him about Ruth Kelly .
Complain about this comment
"Leaving for family reasons".
That's always been a euphamism for being unhappy with government policy in the past, and despite Gordon's protestations on Breakfast this morning, I see no reason to think why that won't be the case here.
She has children to look after. Well she surely does, but she had them when she held previous ministerial or cabinet positions and it didn't seem to pose a problem.
Then the embryology bill comes along and then Ms Kelly - a member of Opus Dei and the former minister for women no less - suddenly decides she needs more time at home.
She says that she "can't think of anyone better than Gordon Brown to lead the party". Not exactly a ringing endorsement; neither can we. That's not supportive, that's pointing out that he's just the best of a bad bunch.
And as for the suggestion that this was leaked by Number 10 to overshadow the EDF purchase of our nuclear industry...
I don't believe that this timing was of the government's choosing. It's during the Labour conference and completely overshadows Gordon's speech, the one thing he wants us all talking about.
No... if anything the timing does Brown an awful lot of damage, because we're all wondering whose going to resign next.
Complain about this comment
I like being Visceral. Its how I knew this lot would tax and spend until we were bankrupt.
And what is more the tories visceral line "Vote Blair get Brown" has proven to be correct. It was a shame at the time that the voting public didnt get what a disaster that was going to be.
Being visceral means we dont have to wait for hindsight to see a disaster looming.
Complain about this comment
The timing just sounds like a spoiler to deflate the departure at a bad time for the PM.
I think she is planning to manage revolt from the back-benches. Possibly be a campaign team member for an opponent - there is a need to increase the number of MP's prepared to vote against Brown.
Whatever, it is quite remarkable just how inept Gordon has proven as a leader. I am not grinding an axe - he has truly crashed and burnt out badly.
Maybe years in the treasury, derailing and undermining "colleagues" year-after-year was not the best way to build team cameraderie? Are all those nasty, late-night "briefings" coming back to haunt him and leave his political obituary a bit of an embarrassment?
Complain about this comment
So Ruth Kelly has gone. It's a start. Only another 350 or so to go.
You've got to wonder what kind of Machevellian stunt it was to announce this today. What else has been buried with this news.
I guess the papers won't be filled with a disembowling of the fakery, disingenuity and mis-truths that characterised the Maximum Leaders 'State of the Union' address. So the faithful won't have their bubble pricked after the missionary-zeal of only talking to their fellow deluded, starry-eyed delegates.
Now we get to look forward to next weeks policy announcements (perhaps he'll be curing cancer again next week), trips to Iraq/Afghanistan, cabinet reshuffles etc all designed to wipe Camerons speech off the front pages. No 'spin' from me guv.
I think the Labour party activists must be suffering from the 'Stockholm Syndrome' to keep clapping the kind of vacuous clap-trap that Gordon Brown spouts. The rest of us see such abuse for what it is.
I'm beginning to feel a bit sorry for these deluded Labour apparatchiks. It must be totally discombobulating to believe in a party that is allegedly there to promote fairness and help the poor and sick and then spends eleven years putting more people in poverty and more people on the disability/long term sick register.
Only a couple of years though and you will be released from the mental cell you have all created for yourselves.
Complain about this comment
?49. At 10:34am on 24 Sep 2008, sagamix wrote:
Here's a nice word for all you Brown haters. A useful word it is too ... "Visceral" ... please see below for dictionary definition.
1. characterized by or proceeding from instinct rather than intellect: a visceral reaction.
2. characterized by or dealing with coarse or base emotions; earthy; crude: a visceral literary style.
What do you reckon? Recognise yourself?
Have a think about it anyway. Don't worry about thanking me, or about coming back with admissions or denials ... the main thing is that you start to know yourselves a little bit better.?
Cheers for that Sagamix. The Nu-Lab defenders have been getting increasingly desperate over the last few years; this is another one for the collection.
Question for you (increasingly few) Labourite defenders. When are you going to stop defending the indefensible?
We are in the stands. It is Grand National day. The Labour horse (looking like a broken down old nag,) was particularly wobbly coming over the Canal Turn and keeled over on the approach to Beechers brook. The vet has pronounced it finished and is loading the humane killer into the shotgun.
If we close our eyes and listen to you however, we would believe that Nu lab is a glorious stallion which not only finished the race already, but did a lap of honour too.
Guys, you are in denial. Own up, face up and admit it. The horse is no longer a runner and the race is over.
Complain about this comment
Guess she'll be getting a job in Tonys Faith Foundation then....
Complain about this comment
This could be Ruthie actually getting the sack.
She played her cards too early by wanting to go in May and she's surplus to requirements anyway
It stops she and others plotting their mass resignation to force a leadership contest.
Ole Gordy is more cunning than you think.
Complain about this comment
Just had to come back on a previous posting from a recognisable source.
"Daoism also suggests that more law, especially more complex law, gives rise to cheats, and turbulent times give rise to feudal lords. Less law and more calm, or a more nuanced and patient approach, is useful.
Media comment suggests that Gordon Brown understands the big picture and fine detail, but the final delivery remains to be seen."
No government in UK history has passed more laws and regulations than New Labour.
Most of them they nod through, as they can't stop the flow from Brussels.
Many are introduced locally, but not effectively followed up.
If you could use your professed influence to
reduce legislation from a flood to a trickle, there may be a chance for individuals and business to get on with life.
GB may understand the big picture and fine detail. I'd bet that if you pulled out a page at random from the 10,000 plus and asked him to testify on oath that he'd read and understood it before it became law, it would take about ten seconds before he confessed ignorance.
Try it on your local MP.
The one new law I'd like to see would be along the lines of:
"No MP shall vote for, or against, any law or regulation set before the House, until such MP has confirmed under oath that he or she has read and understands the consequences of the proposed legislation".
That would slow 'em down. And make them realise that, whatever law is passed, which they never got around to reading, impacts their electorates.
Complain about this comment
A resignation that quickly after Brown's 'best speech ever'? If even the Cabinet don't believe it, doesn't that tell us something?
Which novice will be installed next then Gordon? Seems the experienced Labour ministers don't want a job afterall.
Complain about this comment
Mystery? Doubt, certainly, about whether or not her going has real relevance to the survival of the Brown premiership before, during or after an early or full-term election. This does not say much for its importance. So Ruth Kelly has been a generally unliked figure who made little mark. A fair emblem of some elements of failure in the Blair_Brown era then.
Complain about this comment
Cheers for that Sagamix. The Nu-Lab defenders have been getting increasingly desperate over the last few years; this is another one for the collection.
Ignore them. Or pity them. But don't let your pity distract you from the key mission.
The key mission is to expose this disengenuous government for the enemies of truth and reason that they self-evidently are.
Now that the housing bubble has bust (no more boom and bust) the voters have finally been weened off the SOMA of cheap money and they're looking to see who led them all up the garden path. Shine the torch on Gordon Brown. He's the man who misled y'all. He's the man who squandered your future. He's the man who robbed you. He's the man who robbed your kids. He's the man who robbed your pensioner parents. He's the man who encouraged you to squander you future.
Step forward Gordon Brown. The architect of the UK's largest financial catastrophe since at least the last Labour government.
Don't be shy Gordon. Don't be hiding behind your missus' skirts.
Let's get a real good long 18 month look at you before we tear you and your party to pieces.
Complain about this comment
It seems quite possible that she was asked to go in order to weaken any possible rebellion in the future. GB probably feels that he can do this now from a position of comparative strength, because (a) the economic situation, paradoxically, strengthens his hand, and (b) he thinks that his speech was well received (which it was by the party, however much the rest of us loathed it).
Be nice if she left Parliament altogether, so we'd have another bye-election, which Labour would lose.
Complain about this comment
She was the best of a bad lot. Whilst I believe the finest job a woman can do is to raise her children herself at home, I find it ironic that in the 21st century, in a country which has mostly given up traditional morals and values, a career politican resigns her position. We don't see many male politicians giving up because they have young children at home.
Complain about this comment
I'll try again to defeat the selective moderators, who happily allow CEH and others free rein with their choice of adjectives.
My first offering was prohibited because it contained the words ......
kidneys - slam - Gordon - door - Brown's
- in - the
.....have a good day all
Complain about this comment
Discovered this little tit-bit in the 1997 manifesto by the way. No wonder details of Paddy Pantsdown were released so he could be publicly humiliated and discredited. They couldn't have him wandering around going on about betrayal when they reneged on this manifesto commitment. It certainly set the tone for the last 11 years didn't it.
Discredit the messenger. Bury the facts.
Mind you, with Labour looking to be receiving a collective P45 in perpetuity I fully expect them to suddenly rediscover their commitment to PR.
Look at this for an unequivocal commitment. I don't recall any referendum.
An effective House of Commons
We believe the House of Commons is in need of modernisation ......
We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons.
Complain about this comment
I think this is a case of you desperately trying to read far too much into this.
I am sure there are far more important things to report than have this as the headline on BBC news.
You cant be THAT short of news, surely!
Complain about this comment
#79 Phoenixarisen
How old is Gordon Brown's child?
Just a thought, oh stop it 'polero your wishful thinking is getting out of hand
Complain about this comment
Along with her wedge of cash, did JK Rowling send El Gordo a book of Hairy Porter spells? Maybe she figured out that's the only way some of his recent proclamations are do-able
Complain about this comment
I agree with some posters in that this is all a bit too convenient with the passing of our home grown electricity to the French at what will be seen to be a knockdown price. Helps deflect the political seers way from that.
I also agree she will be toast at the next election so going now allows her time to find at least a couple of part time well paid jobs whilst labour are still in power.
Can't see why anyone in the Private Sector would want to employ her though!
No doubt a couple of good government quango type roles given out by some mates who she gave a helping hand up to in the past would suit just fine.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
One down, twenty-one (or thereabouts) to go (is that the Cabinet roll?). This is like watching a train crash in slo-mo.
Complain about this comment
Looks like the group resignation plan fell apart then Nick.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This story, like Milliband's comment 'overheard in a lift', seems to have been "sexed-up" a bit.
Surely not a thing the BBC should be doing?
Complain about this comment
Good, that's one less minister making policy in support of our risk averse, 'think of the children', society.
Complain about this comment
There's no mystery here. This is the first Brownite scalp in a bid to remove the more blatant Blairite plotters.
Others will follow or be booted out in Brown's long awaited cabinet reshuffle.
Kelly knew the game was up so jumped ship, as I point out here:
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/brownites-claim-first-scalp-as-kelly.html
Complain about this comment
Why didn't she just stick the younger kids in the "free nurseries" and leave the older ones to surf the net, I'm sure she could wangle a couple of free laptops even on her salary!
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
At least she tried to grow her hair a bit, as opposed to Harman, Smith, Jowell prison governor look! Now only Caroline Flint remains but for how long?
Complain about this comment
Nick,
Don't quite understand your reasoning...
-Downing Street are already denying suggestions that they released the news in order to reduce its impact. -
If she had just gone during next week's re-shuffle, no-one would have thought twice about it, amongst the other changes.
Something else must have happened here. Kelly must have decided she wanted to go now, over something not yet made public which would look bad for Brown (whether policy or the performance of GB himself). They have obviously then come out with the old 'leaving to spend more time with the family' excuse to make it look as good as possible.
Question for you Nick: is it possible to say yet how extensive you are expecting the re-arranging of the deckchairs will be next week?
Complain about this comment
If her resignation was genuinely unconnected with the leadership question, and wasn't a deliberate attempt to take the wind out of Brown's sails, was the timing forced, misjudged, and/or designed to bury bad news in the post-speech bounce? Either way, it has to be the hardest resignation to analyse since David Davis.
Complain about this comment
If anyone thinks that Ruth Kelly and her timing of this did not do it deliberately in order to create embarrasment for Gordon Brown and put him on the back foot again, then they don't believe that the Pope is a Catholic!
Complain about this comment
I am less inclined to see this as a sign of a group resignation gone wrong that simply appallingly bad timing for Brown...but what's new about that for Mr Hapless?
There are two ways of interpreting it:
1. She's left so as to avoid the imputation that, on leaving with the reshuffle, she was a less than capable minister. (She may want to return to the front bench at some point)
2. She's left now to wound Brown.
Of those two, I believe 1 more than 2. If she wanted to wound Brown, she'd have left in June, no questions asked, and kept very quiet about her reasons why.
The rumours about others leaving are just that - rumours set off to get people in the Press like you, Nick, talking. Glenthrothes is not far away: after that, and assuming the result is as dire as predicted, the resignations will come, one by one.
My bet is that Mr Miliband will not be among them - or even a reluctant last departure.
I have never been inclined to regard anything the estwhile Mr Finkelstein says in the Times as sensible, but in his piece today he gets to the nub of the issue. People have fallen out of sympathy with exactly what New Labour is all about - not bits of it, all of it. Brown needs a new Cabinet to articulate a single new vision - and a rather better one than the one he produced yesterday...
Complain about this comment
93. petefergie
Why didn't she just stick the younger kids in the "free nurseries" and leave the older ones to surf the net, I'm sure she could wangle a couple of free laptops even on her salary!
Now that Gordon Brown is hanging onto his wife's shirt tails - sorry skirt - I expect he will make use of those nurseries and free laptops!
Complain about this comment
Again, this is all pretty irrelevant.... Ruth Kelly was a very mediocre minister in a below mediocre Labour Party - so what?
Right, financial crisis, well, neither of the main parties have got anything constructive to say although Gordon Brown did show that he doesn't understand 'short' selling this morning. He also doesn't seem to understanding 'gearing' (the borrowing that is really harming the banks).
Vince Cable not only knows what he's doing but he's also happy to speakly candidly (the other two parties have vested interests so can't).
Can we please forget this silly nonsense about Ruth Kelly and talk about the real issues (economy, economy, economy)?
Complain about this comment
So who resigns tomorrow.
Drip, drip.
Complain about this comment
"resigning to spend time with her family" ?
The poor family. What on earth did they do to her ?
I give it 12 months and we'll the cornflakes sold to France, the cat with an ID card, the hall landing controlled by speed cameras and family conversations that hint of peaceful protest outlawed in the kitchen.
Complain about this comment
#9, RobinJD, great to hear that there's one Conservative prepared to stick up for their chums in the City.... Boris Johnson was berating London last night on the BBC London program. Thankfully, he reminded us how they were all jolly good chaps really and that there's no point crying over spilt milk.
Splendid! That's alright then.
Complain about this comment
# 102, RobinJD, I dont care, it's who they replace them with.
In a government of 'all-the-talents', I think it's time for an economist (or preferrably a panel of them).
Complain about this comment
At least she didn't demand maternity leave.
Complain about this comment
So now she has 2 full-time jobs instead of 3 !
Complain about this comment
Timing is curious here. Brown actually made a good speech yesterday and this takes away some of the shine.
Still, Ruth Kelly is hardly indispensable. A very average member of the Cabinet indeed.
The problem for all the Blairite plotters is that his Cabinet favourites, many of whom have already gone, were incredibly poor ministers. For example:
Charles Clarke
Stephen Byers
Patricia Hewitt
Alan Milburn
Peter Mandelson
So Ruth Kelly has gone as well. Time to get on with the business of Government.
Complain about this comment
Perhaps she could not be trusted with the nappies when the children were toddlers and so she was sent to fumble/stumble with policies etc. Now that the children are at and age where she can't do much harm - she is back at home. No such luck for ordinary folks like us.
Complain about this comment
There's more to the philosophy of abortion and personality types than your comment suggests. "Authority" and "popularity" don't mean a thing in themselves, as a little logic and a few facts in both these areas can demonstrate soon enough.
The most casual search turns up enough material to fill in the blanks. If you're genuinely interested in understanding the moral philosophy and people mechanics this is worth pursuing. It would make a change to the usual cruft around here.
I'm sure the Prime Minister admired Ruth Kelly's intellect and valued her loyalty. This will be loss he'll feel deeply on a personal level but he can understand "whatever is necessary". Sometimes, things are what they are but the cynical observer can twist them into something they are not.
Complain about this comment
Make sure the speed cameras don't clock her on the way out.
Complain about this comment
re: 108 peteholly
"Brown actually made a good speech"
Did he? I must have been watching something else then when i saw the "highlights", because what I saw was just a cringeworthy bucket load of hypocrisy, lies, false logic, and buck-passing.
Complain about this comment
# 19
How little we really know.
A journalist once memorably wrote that to become an MP is like obtaining the winning ticket in some kind of grotesque lottery.
Let me spell it out and if I am wrong, then I am sure that I will soon be corrected:
A Westminster MP can do as much or as little as he/she desires.
There is no set amount of work that must be done at all.
I believe that is the current arrangement.
It might sound totally unbelieveable but that is the situation as I understand it.
It certainly would explain why some Westminster MP's seem to have plenty of time for 'other' activities.
But I do not blame Westminster MP's.
I fault us English for not being interested enough in politics, which allows situations like this to occur.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Max @ 59, Pot @ 68
Thanks, that's helpful. If I know your views are based on violent and irrational dislike, rather than facts and principles (and it looks like we've established that) then we can have a reasonably fun time slinging a few jibes back and forth. Nothing wrong with that.
My advice @ 49 was more aimed at those who are under the false impression that their anti Labour views are supported by real world evidence. Some of those guys, I reckon, may be open to attaining a better self awareness about why they regularly sprout stuff which contains such a disturbing degree of unsupportable nonsense.
Complain about this comment
In keeping with so many professional politicians these days, Ms Kelly appears to have achieved precious little apart from career advancement.
Complain about this comment
The government of no talent loses another intellectual giant....
Meanwhile Gordon and Alistair fly off to America...fiddling while Rome burns?
Will Young's remark to Fiona Philips truly hilarious...
Fiona: "but isn't he just saying he doesn't want to be someone he's not?"
Will Young: "what? Like a leader? Or Prime Minister?"
Sums up the day. The world is told the great leader has made his comeback while most of us ask "what did he say?"
Complain about this comment
32 - Charles, she went all Catholic over abortion because she happens to be a devout catholic, she's a member of Opus Dei for starters.
I always had you down as fairly well switched on over political personalities. Just goes to show, eh?
Complain about this comment
This womans department gave permission for a man cautioned for looking at child pornography to work in a school. She did however, I recall give the man a very serious warning.
She then went on give a teacher convicted of indecent assault on a young girl permission to carry on working, despite being removed from 3 other schools.
Quote: The Secretary of State had considered his case and found that although his past actions had been unwise and unacceptable, he had undertaken teaching work to good effect since.
Yep you read that correctly ?UNWISE AND UNACEPTABLE.
No wonder shes going home to keep a closer eye on the kids.
Complain about this comment
No-one commented on how strange the creature on display in Brown's speech seemed, the work I guess of image consultants but perhaps more importantly the will to stay in power. It was in one way a plausibly softer Brown, but at the same time a far from authentic one. I wonder if he woke up the next day and didn't recognise himself in the mirror.
Complain about this comment
71 Shoe
Phew, that's quite an analogy! Thing is I'm not a fan of Brown and I'm definitely no big supporter of New Labour. They are not, in my view, a party of the Left and they haven't delivered a great deal on the progressive agenda.
77 U and the numbers
Oh dear, U have regressed with that one haven't U? I'm a believer in the carrot, not the stick, and so I won't bang on about it too much. I prefer to offer praise where I can and so I'd like to stress that there's nothing too much wrong with your other post ... you know, the one on reform of the House of Commons?
Complain about this comment
Now lets see - Oldest child 11ish
Could this be something to do with the secondary schools her children are going to go to?.
I would guess NOT the local Comprehensive...
Complain about this comment
98 - i thought he was a nazi? Or did I dream the membership of the hitlerjugend?
My question to nick who will ignore it.
WHO
LEAKED
THIS?
because that will give an idea of whether its malicious for or against Brown or just a cock up.
[west wing analogy]
Either way, to stand a chance they need to sort out their media control and start controlling the news cycle instead of always running to catch up [/west wing analogy]
Complain about this comment
I prefer to offer praise where I can and so I'd like to stress that there's nothing too much wrong with your other post ... you know, the one on reform of the House of Commons?
Your conversion from the dark side of the force is so noted my young padawan. I trust the heavy scales falling from your eyes did not smash your toes nor the searing light of enlightenment blind you to further revelation.
Now that you see the evil inherent in your former masters from day we must all hope you may more often find it in your heart to speak out against their endless tirade of broken promises, mistruths, 'mispeaks', character assasination etc by which they daily pursue their reign of terror and cloak their trail of lies.
Complain about this comment
I've just read about Mrs Brown's spontaneous appearance at the Labour Party conference. I must admit, I was privately thinking it would be a plus but was surprised why she did step forward. I didn't think she'd be willing to do anything like that, and thought it was an instinctively genius move by someone not knowing it was entirely driven by her. She's no dummy and, I'm sure, fiercely supportive of the Prime Minister. Yes, quite a team.
I had an idea for a longer post about something else but that moments gone, but as an antidote to some of the negativity around here there's an animation I turned up that's illustrative of the Gordon Brown: The Motion Picture image I'd like to conjure up as the Labour party gets a refit and leaves drydock to go where no man has gone before. As they say, the adventure is just beginning.
I'm a sucker for this stuff.
Complain about this comment
ed balls was wheeled out to do some of the press on ruth kelly - thus it is very feasible this was all about gordon trying to save his skin.
Complain about this comment
I'm a sucker for this stuff.
Three superfluous words there old chap. Less is more and all that.
It's not a cartoon of the Titanic setting sail is it? Or the Marie Celeste? They're the most appropriate maritime images for Gordon Brown. Maybe the Torre Canyon though might be more appropriate. When do we get to call in the Air Force to reduce the catastrophe?
Complain about this comment
49. At 10:34am on 24 Sep 2008, sagamix wrote:
Here's a nice word for all you Brown haters.
A useful word it is too ... "Visceral" ... please see below for dictionary definition.
1. characterized by or proceeding from instinct rather than intellect: a visceral reaction.
My original reply #89 was blocked by the moderators. I will try and word this more moderately so as not to offend.
Many dislike or even hate Brown, not through instinct, but through empirical evidence. Mind you, instinct is not such a bad thing. Many a life has been saved by avoiding dangerous situations by an instinctive reaction.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
now we have it effectively confirmed that there will be a reshuffle next week, so as to take the gloss off the Tory Conference.
I think that the main casualty will be Des Browne, he is actually looking worn out by the continuing occupation of Iraq and the Wra against Afghanistan. It is that the Americans want to withdraw large numbers of troops from Iraq, and then transfer them to Afghanistan. We are stranded, what will we actually do, why change the Minister. Poor old Des, he had the poisoned chalice.
Gordon will need to explain the change of policy. Parliament must decide on a vote, not just nodded through. If the Tories are going to say anything relevent at their conference then I must hear about the wars, and what the Tories will do about them. I also include Pakistan in the list because we are effectively at war with that country, without war actually being declared. Just like Vietnam. we'll be talking about advisers soon.
Complain about this comment
U at 124
Ah, Star Trek! ... something in common at last. Who is your favourite character? (mine has to be either Scotty or Princess Leah).
Listen, what I'm going to do, rather than keep pointing up where U go wrong, is I'm going to post U a quick summary manifesto of what we need to do to move the country forward. U can then be all devastating and rip it to shreds, how does that sound?
Only take me a few minutes.
Complain about this comment
I think it's a bit much for Brown to make gibes at novices, whether he means Milipede or Call Me Dave, when in 1997 he and all the other incompetents in the Labour party were themselves novices.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
Why is there no comment about Gordon deliberately misquoting Osborne in his speech ? (For BBC journalists - deliberately misquoting someone is called a "lie".)
It has taken Boulton on Sky News to actually ask the PM a direct question - what one earth is going on ?
Suggest people may wish to listen to the Boulton interview and Gordon's "justification" for lying.
Complain about this comment
Ah, Star Trek!
Star Wars.
Listen, what I'm going to do, rather than keep pointing up where U go wrong, is I'm going to post U a quick summary manifesto of what we need to do to move the country forward. U can then be all devastating and rip it to shreds, how does that sound?
Sounds diversionary to me.
Much better if we just stick to the task in hand reminding all and sundry how devastatingly incompetent this government is. And how calculatingly mendacious this government is.
If they spent a fraction of their energy trying to do a good job instead of trying to cover up for their ill-thought-through policies they'd be well on their way to a fourth election victory.
Complain about this comment
saga, I really hope you intentionally mixed Star Wars and Start Trek, or the nerds will get up with their replica lightsabers and tri-corders.
You have been warned
Complain about this comment
Since Kelly's seat is highly marginal she's resigning rather than being booted out come the election.
Oh and why didn't she want to see more of her kids when they were younger?
Complain about this comment
No one seems to have commented on the fact that this was announced at 3am.
Why?
Couldn't it have waited until this morning?
If she told Brown in May that she wanted to go, then why didn't she go when parliament went into recess?
I suspect she was sacked to reduce the impact that her speech would have made today.
I just wonder why she went along with the lies about 'wanting to spend more time with the family'?
Complain about this comment
Taxi for Ruth...
Anyone else in the queue?
Complain about this comment
123. At 1:19pm on 24 Sep 2008, bradshad1 wrote:
98 - i thought he was a nazi? Or did I dream the membership of the hitlerjugend?
I think you'll find that membership of the Hitler Youth was compulsory at the time. But why let facts get in the way of prejudices?
Complain about this comment
To anyone who thinks this is a 'moutain out of a molehill' jounalistic effort to make something from nothing...
It was announced in a 3AM press conference in a hotel lobby...
That doesn't seem particularly well planned - seems more like either an emergency response to a threat; or somone was drunk.
As MPs and journalists seem to be permanently drunk, I think they would have more control than to act recklessly while under the influence, but who can say? Nick?
Regarding journalists making things up to give a bad press - that will have to wait for the tory conference - started planning for that yet Nick?
Complain about this comment
Resonance and no-mind are key to games design and game playing, and Zen Buddhism as it happens. Indeed, when one is performing a task well, such as superstar athletes, one is the experience. If you think or feel you get in the way, the magic disappears, and you fall in a heap on the floor.
Both thinking and feeling are forms of reason. One may work at it, such as when learning or being overwhelmed, or rest in the proper form and attitude of experience, go with the flow, and arrive at wherever you're going. The same is equally true of global economics. So, that's stuffed the egotistical masters of the universe and hairshirt brigade.
Instinct and common sense are merely forms of knowledge. One may perceive an experience of these to be correct but it can just be more ego, with all the usual delusion propped up by a self-reinforcing justification that hardens the more it's tested. It usually ends badly so it's better not to cling too tightly to it.
I had an idea where Ruth Kelly was coming from. The "Catholic thing" is a bit of in-joke around some Zen Buddhists. It's used to suggest someone's being a little bit clingy.
The standard Catholic position on procreation and abortion is something I can understand but can't run with. Studying alternative texts and taking a walk outside might knock the popes brain off its rails. (Note: Good work on the corporate governance and morality thing. I liked that. Solid and very timely stuff.)
Complain about this comment
Poor soul, struggling to look after the kids, now she can stay home with the kids, collect her salary as an MP, inflate her expences to make up her take to what she had before, and she wont have to go into London and sit through all these boring debates in the commons.( Except when there's a dodgy vote and she's ordered to appear.)If the kids were truly the reason for her departure, why isn't she leaving the commons? Answer ; Greed.
Complain about this comment
Okay, the name of the game is Equality of Opportunity. Because ...
- a fair society is a mark of civilisation
- a fairer society will be richer and happier
- you can't have freedom without equality
So ...
Education is the thing so let's get serious about it. Big investment needed. Every child goes to a state school and every state school is excellent. Teaching to be a prestigous and highly paid profession. Attract really good people and then let them get on with the job, free of government interference. Rigorous standards, traditional teaching methods, streaming, challenging exams, suitable mix of academic and vocational. On to further education, if willing and able.
Government to provide other things but only the essentials. A decent Health Service (but let's not go overboard with the spending, please!). No problem with private health care alongside, even if it's better. Transport infrastructure. Maybe utilities and banking, but probably not ... depends how this current crisis plays out.
Loranorda, of course, bobbies on the beat, that sort of thing. The justice system. And just sufficient military as is commensurate with our position as a run of the mill, modest sized nation. Let's please drop the delusion of being a world power and let's stop trying to be America's "special friend" ... the USA are in terminal decline, in any case.
Benefits required but as a safety net only. Major simplification of tax and benefit system. Drop all the complexity in favour of clear and progressively stacked tax rates. Low earners to pay little (or preferably no) tax. Stop taking money away from these people and then giving it back. Don't take it in the first place. Empowerment not dependency! High earners to pay high rates of tax. Very high earners to pay very high rates. Death tax to be around 100% ... who cares when you're dead, right?
And then, once we have the framework in place, we just let it rip! The government to stay out of peoples lives, let them get on with it. No government view on stuff like whether a parent works or stays at home. Anyone can do (or say) anything they like provided it's within the law.
Complain about this comment
Brad @ 134
Thanks for the warning!
Just to make sure I have the right one, was it Trek or Wars which had the Daleks?
Complain about this comment
And what were honourable journalists doing hanging around a hotel lobby at 3 AM in the morning?
Complain about this comment
I find the views political set like Nick Robinson obsurd.
Was it another Ruth Kelly who did such a poor job at Education and then Commmuities? Was it a different Ruth Kelly who was on the edge of being fired from Cabinet not too long ago? Why shoudl her joining a "resignation group" or not hold any weight?
Same goes for the calls during the summer by Charles Clark for the PM's resignation. Wasn't he the one fired for incompetance at the Home Office -- who led a department "not fit for purpose." Yet when he called for the PM's resignation I do not recall the journalists qualifying his remarks -- "Failed and disgraced former Home Secretary calls for the PM's resignation."
I just find the general public is let down by journalists like Nick Robinson -- those with little memory and limted insight from what I can see.
Why is Kelly's departure a problem for Brown -- "poorly performing minister leaves cabinet."
Sounds like a win for the country anyway whatever Mr. Robinson and his Westminster Village set may tell us we should think.
NB: Never voted Labour so this is not a Brownite blogging -- I'm just against poor quality reporting.
Complain about this comment
There are some explosive numbers in today's WSJ in an article about the utter hyperbole of Brown's speech yesterday...
Real income grew faster in the UK under both the Thatcher boom and during the Major bust per annum than it has ever done per annum during the Brown boom and bust.
All you had was an enormous expansion of credit, under the waving hand of Gordon Brown and minimal real income growth; quite an achievement during eleven years of benign economicgrowth.
Well done Gordon. Now stand aside and make way for someone who gives us the real numbers.
Complain about this comment
Perfect joined up government ? Kelly resigns , front page news which obscures the fact that the French now own the UK's entire nuclear industry , which if I recall , was seen as central to the governments policy of energy security - or am I missing something here ?
Complain about this comment
#136
I suspect the Government found out that a journalist had discovered something about the May agreement, and so had no choice but to officially announce it.
Kelly was perceived as a Brown loyalist when Blair brought her into the Cabinet, so I wouldn't have thought it would be a leadership issue
Complain about this comment
Professor David Blanchflower argues for a cut in interest rates to stave of a recession. I'm puzzled at his knee-jerk response as it won't change a thing. The key is to invest in new products and keep staff. For a Professor he's a real dork as he doesn't get that stimulating demand and expanding employment is the way forward. Cutting interest rates just fuels the perception of decline when people need to be incentivised. How about putting the fear of God into employers by putting interest rates up for every 10,000 increase in the unemployment figures?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Surely Brown's biggest problem now is that whatever he decides to do in the way of a reshuffle, he is seriously constrained by an acute shortage of real talent in his party that he can use.
Ruth Kelly was always a lightweight, as is the Home Secretary Ms Smith. He can't safely turn to supposed big hitters like Charles Clarke or John Reid even if he wanted to. Looking along the front bench at PMQs it is hard now to spot any promising ministerial talent; those seated with the glum faces are either already over-promoted, already discredited, or busy sharpening their knives in secret. It's almost (but not quite) enough to make me feel sorry for Gordon Brown.
I wonder how bad it will have to get before the last remaining Brownian acolyte, Ed Balls, decides to jump ship too? He has, like all of them, to consider his own future ambitions, and being still a young man, he will politically outlive his current master. How tainted is he prepared to become in the service of a clearly failing administration?
Complain about this comment
Dear Nick,
I watched Newsnight last night when this story broke and you have seemed to have forgotten that another minister is off out also.
Did anyone else see Geoff Boon's face (Who just happened to be on the show) when asked by Jerry Paxo about his sudden move easwards? Talk about avoiding the issue!
So Nick, is Geoff Boon out or not?
Complain about this comment
I'm glad she's going, the country needs less hyper-opinionated people like her in government.
I think she has always been a blight on the Labour landscape her views have never been congruent with the party.
Anti-Gay, anti-abortion, anti-stem cell research....give her a gun and im sure she'll get out rather well with Sarah Palin.
A dieu Ruth!
Complain about this comment
Was it another Ruth Kelly who did such a poor job at Education and then Commmuities? Was it a different Ruth Kelly who was on the edge of being fired from Cabinet not too long ago? Why shoudl her joining a "resignation group" or not hold any weight?
Same goes for the calls during the summer by Charles Clark for the PM's resignation. Wasn't he the one fired for incompetance at the Home Office -- who led a department "not fit for purpose."
But which comes first? The disloyalty or the firing. Labour form over the last eleven years is that as soon as anybody shows any personal initiative they are marginalised and fired/driven out/disgraced.
Remember Paddy Ashdown? How he was unmasked as a philanderer just so that Labour could quietly renege on their unequivocal election promise for a referendum on a new system of voting. Ditto Ken Livingston. Ditto Robin Cook. Ditto David Kelly. Ditto Andrew Gilligan. etc etc etc.
This government is entirely predictable in how it deals with dissenters. It uses their private lives to discredit them and if that fails it destroys their professional reputation to discredit them.
Be in no doubt - this government is evil to its core. It is intent on power purely for its own sake.
They haven't a clue on how to run anything. Everything they touch turns to garbage. They are a reverse Midas government. We're probably lucky Gordon Brown practically gave our gold away it, the stuff we have left has probably turned to iron and rusted.
Complain about this comment
@138 - no it wasnt, people with moral courage refused to join.
But hey, he's the leader of the Catholic Church who's just tried to say how much the Catholic Church did to help the Jews during the Holocaust. I can give you a clue on how much help the catholic church gave, it starts with bugger and ends with all. And in fact actively encouraged Mussolini's anti-semitism. But dont let facts get in the way of blind obedience to a failed superstitious doctrine.
@143 - Who, I believe.
Complain about this comment
Give us the truth Nick.
Why not tell us exactly when and where the news of Ruth Kelly's intention to stand down actually came from - or at least speculate, you're pretty adept at that.
Why the middle of the night? Why not tell us the source? - surely that is news? How long have journalists known?
Its obvious that Neither RK nor GB wanted this to come out only hours after GB's Conference speech so where did it come from and why?
If the story had been leaked from Downing Street or, indeed, any Labour Party source then it would constitute evidence of plotting against GB, so we would definitely be hearing about it. Yet here we are with the number 1 story across all the BBC media, and not a word on the actual source of the story.
Let me write a headline for you: Journalists deny manipulating events to 'sex up' the news.
Give us the truth Nick.
Complain about this comment
Surely Brown's biggest problem now is that whatever he decides to do in the way of a reshuffle, he is seriously constrained by an acute shortage of real talent in his party that he can use.
We'll never know how good any of them are. He never uses them anyway. He just harangues them at all hours of day and night 'Have you thought about this, have you thought about that'. The man is a total control freak, he doesn't trust any of them to do the job. He may be right but it's hardly as if he's been doing such a peachy job himself either is it?
Then, as soon as any one of them says a word out of line (and bearing in mind the 'line' is in a constant state of flux in Gordon Brown's unhinged mind) then they're show the door. They're 'incompetent'. They're 'off-message'.
The only acceptable answer any minister can make to any question is 'Gordon Brown is brilliant'.
Ms Kelly, there are some who say you're a bit of an intellectual lightweight. What do you have to say?
'Gordon Brown is brilliant'
Mr Straw, do you really support detention without charge for 42 days?
'Gordon Brown is brilliant'.
It's the only way they can be sure not to upset him. If they try and guess what the party (ie Gordon's) line is on any given policy today he may have changed it overnight without them knowing. He might have changed it between mouthfuls. They have no way of knowing.
Gordon Brown doesn't even know what his policies are until he opens his mouth.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
sagamix @115 wrote:
"Thanks, that's helpful. If I know your views are based on violent and irrational dislike, rather than facts and principles (and it looks like we've established that) then we can have a reasonably fun time slinging a few jibes back and forth. Nothing wrong with that."
We've not established that at all. My dislike and visceral reaction to Brown and Labour are highly rational: one only needs to understand their philosophy, ideology and actions to feel quite queasy.
Lack of a visceral reaction to appalling things could be construed as pathological behaviour ;-)
Complain about this comment
Funny isn't it ??,
On the one hand, a rich woman avails themselves(donates £1 million) to the Labour Party,because they think it is the party which deals best with child poverty issues.
Then another person,actually working for that party, leaves it, saying they are not getting enough time with their children.
Complain about this comment
Thank you Ruth and goodbye.
So Gordon, can you give us a good reason for not legalising same sex marriages now the opus dei Blairbabe is out of the way?
Complain about this comment
The resignation is great news for New Labour if they can get Jowell,Harman and Becket to resign the Party may get some real talent on board instead of being PC.
Complain about this comment
#144 CEH
Clue's perhaps in the statement ie. Press Conference?
Complain about this comment
Uh, Nick makes stuff up and most of you folks negatively personalise stuff. Are you really seeing how things are or just looking at the world through the fog of your own ego? That's a serious question, cuz I'm thinking of taking a break again. This blog is becoming a laughing stock and I'd rather take a hike than stick around and moan.
Complain about this comment
149. Charles_E_Hardwidge
Youre understanding of economics is on a par with my dog.
An increase in interest rates reduces business investment. Therefore higher interest rates reduce the rate of economic growth.
This has an effect on jobs, well it does in the private sector any how.
Complain about this comment
CEH
Some simple economics for you courtesy of my hound
Complain about this comment
Uh, Nick makes stuff up and most of you folks negatively personalise stuff. Are you really seeing how things are or just looking at the world through the fog of your own ego?
I think you've adopted the wrong brand of eastern religion.
All this Confuscious and Daoism and seems a bit wide of the mark to be honest. If I were to borrow from any eastern religion to best describe this government and their apologists frame of reference it would be Hinduism. They seem to go in for knowing their station in life and deferring to their Brahmin 'betters'.
This allows the non-chosen, 'the untouchables' or what the Labour government would call 'the voters' to be mis-led, walked over, lied to and robbed as simply being the natural order of things. If we don't like it we should have been 'better people' in a previous life. The Labour 'insiders' consider themselves to be just one reincarnation away from being the top dogs and so simply swallow any insult and parrot any disingenuity handed down by the government.
Yep. You're deluding yourself if you think Chinese mysticism has anything to offer your role as a Labour apparatchik. Hindu deference and fatalism is your allotted role.
Time to start reading up on a whole new philosophy old chap.
In the meantime the rationalists amongst us will just content ourselves with pointing out what a disingenuous cabal of incompetents we have somehow handed a mandate to.
Complain about this comment
164. Charles_E_Hardwidge
Oh NO I sense another Long March coming.
Communists forces on the run again, suggest you recuperate and rebuild in the north. Its all over down here.
Complain about this comment
Are you really seeing how things are or just looking at the world through the fog of your own ego? That's a serious question, cuz I'm thinking of taking a break again. This blog is becoming a laughing stock
Missing you already.
Who will we turn to for a bit of cod reflective moonshine now?
Complain about this comment
164# Charley
Bye Charley. We will understand if you dont send us a postcard!
Complain about this comment
Nick,
Harriet is using the media to taint David Cameron's character / personality, without her being asked to show why she is making such remarks.
I assume therefore that we are all free to make any allegation that we wish against any politician, and that the Beeb will simply report this.
On that basis, I would like to add that Harriet Harman is the most unattractive female I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. She is clearly a few pence short of the old thruppeny bit. It must be extremely hard to be Mr Harman. And I mean that most sincerely folks.
Before anyone gets their dander up, let me add that I know this lowers the tone of the political debate, however, Harriet chose to start the ball rolling on this particular approach.
all the best
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nobody yet has contradicted my assertion in post # 113 that Westminster MP's are free to choose precisely how much or how little work they do for us.
Nick Robinson is the professional here so maybe he could make a rare appearance and confirm either way.
Or would some MP's stop co-operating with him if he confirmed that they are able to choose how much work they wished to do?
Complain about this comment
57 ppl. Another classic from ppl, How can any person in their right mind, say that a young Godfearing catholic mother of four young children under eleven years old who has decided to retire from politics for a while because she feels that she should spend more time with her children is,
A truly loathsome woman. Good riddance.
I think only the truly loathsome ppl could think like that.
Complain about this comment
I am surprised if not astonished at the media attention inspite of the timing.
From a PR/media point of view she is as dull as dishwater.
As a politician I don't recall her being in any way dynamic or original and definitely not entertaining. Whether she entered politics to further her own beliefs or not I don't know but I'll bet my kitchen sink that she is the most honest person your ever likely to meet and everything she did was with the best and most sincere of intentions. The fact you might disagree with her or that they may have been misplaced, in your opinion, is irrelevent.
In fact most of the people at this level of politics will be the same. They have to be given the media spotlight hovering over and just waiting to shine on and ruin them, unlike you back room bloggers....get a life.
Complain about this comment
170. Roll_On_2010
Trouble is his Long Marches always turn into a leisurely stroll around the garden.
Hes a card
Complain about this comment
# 113 Johnconstable
"I fault us English for not being interested enough in politics, which allows situations like this to occur"
John please do not limit your castigation to the English, all of the peoples of the United Kingdom are equally responsible. It is no better in Scotland Wales or Northern Ireland.
Complain about this comment
You're not paying attention to what I said, but that goes for routine around here. I'm not saying what you think I'm saying. Take another run at it, grasshopper.
Complain about this comment
159 Aw c'mon Max ... here's me trying to move things forward by agreeing that your views are irrational and now here's you coming back and saying that it's not true. We're back to square one, you realise that, don't you?
Complain about this comment
are you still here? I thought you were off in a huff.
Admit it, you love us really
Complain about this comment
176# CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
I couldnt agree more. Some time ago I accused him of colluding with the Fairies at the bottom of his garden. He must be on his way to join them?.again.
Well it sure as hell beats his current hobby of gazing at his navel.
Complain about this comment
2 maas 101
Selling british energy to EDF was like selling one piece of a jig saw puzzle, it wasn't much good keeping it as maggie had already sold all the rest.
Complain about this comment
164. At 3:16pm on 24 Sep 2008, Chuck_E_Hogwash wrote:
".... cuz I'm thinking of taking a break again. This blog is becoming a laughing stock and I'd rather take a hike than stick around and moan."
Promises, promises....
How many times have you promised to go? (Nearly as many times as your Sainted Brown has reminded us that he abolished boom and bust).
Your presence here is amusing as it exemplifies the impotent combination of arrogance, self-importance and pseudo-philosophic rubbish that is so typical of Brown and Nu Labour.
But, like Brown and Nu Labour, I'd rather see you gone.
Ta ta.
Complain about this comment
sagamix @179,
But you know that I'm a contrary so-and-so....
Complain about this comment
# 171 Buddie
When did you "encounter" Hazza? ... was it at a dinner party or something like that? ... did you end up arguing with her about political correctness and the 10p tax rate?
Complain about this comment
112 getridofgordonow,
Define what you say are
" hypocrisy, lies, false logic, and buck-passing.
I would be interested to know what on earth[or perhaps not on earth] your talking about.
Complain about this comment
Westminster MP's are free to choose precisely how much or how little work they do for us.
Nobody has contradicted you because we know it's true. The great problem we have is not that MPs do too little 'work' but that they do too much 'work'.
'Work' for an MP involves sitting around passing legislation to further complicate our life and wreck our plans.
If Tony Blair, Gordon Brown et al had sat on their hands for the last eleven years and done nothing at all except allow the country to run as it had been in 1997 do you seriously think we'd be any worse off than we are today?
Anybody?
Seriously though. Do you genuinely believe that on balance they've added any value to this county in eleven years? Because I don't. Quite the opposite.
Their 'style' of government has inured us to lies and broken promises like no other government in history. They spit in our face over the Lisbon referendum and not a single Labour MP resigns on principle. They ditch their Leader in breach of their manifesto and again not one from 350 (well, except Tony Blair) resigns over this flagrant breach.
They have borrowed during the good times and now they are going to be borrowing three or four times as much during the bad. They claim to have improved education but we all know they've simply rigged the exams and the marking system to produce an ever-devalued series of certificates.
They destroy honest and innocent men like David Kelly, driven to suicide by their relentless hounding to disguise their lies and still they get elected. It can only because the same style dossiers that were used to discredit Paddy Ashdown are also shoved under the noses of the print media editors, reporters and owners to keep them in check.
They plan to issue us all with ID cards and there is nobody in the Labour party who takes the cue given to them by David Davies to register their disgust that a Labour government would seek to issue their citizens with compulsary ID.
The interests of the citizens of the UK would be best served if we were to have a moratorium on new laws, new borrowing and new wars for the next five years.
I don't want my MP to do any work. I want them all to spend more time with their family.
Complain about this comment
160 mindthegjc,
Funny isn't it ??,
You really need to get out more if you can find anything funny in your post.
Complain about this comment
#185
I encountered the Harperson when she was still agitating to get the Depute role. Even then you could see how far she was unable to go.
All the best
Complain about this comment
It is thoroughly excellent that a religious extremist like Kelly, who takes her moral orders from the Bishop of Rome, is out of public life. As a gay man I rejoice in her departure - her absence from the cabinet brings true equality just that little bit closer.
Complain about this comment
Hypocracy? Dissing the successful Tory candidate in Crewe and Nantwich for being a 'toff' while seeking to pass on seat to the previous incumbents privileged daughter. All the while with a huge bunch of privately educated 'toffs' on the government's own front bench. David Cameron and his shadow cabinet derided as 'toffs' for the same reason after just having a privately educated Tony Blair as PM for ten years?
Gordon Brown deriding Cameron using his family for media purposes only seconds after having his missus 'spontaneously' introduce him?
Gordon Brown deriding banks for using SIV's and meanwhile hiding God-only-knows what nasties in PFI and refusing to put them on the UK balance sheet?
Buck-passing? Credit-crunch arrives and it's everybodies fault but his. The banks, the yanks, the FSA. No mention at all that while everybody else was borrowing like mad he too has practically doubled national debt. But that's in the bag now. Another few months and it will be double.
False logic? When the global economy is going great guns and every country in the civilised world has low inflation and low interest rates it's down to his prudent stewardship. When the global economy turns and our Emporer has no clothes and it turns out we are uniquely exposed to a maelstrom of debt. Guess what? It's a global problem.
Complain about this comment
# 177 Glenholme
I deliberately limit my castigation to the English people because I am English* and live in England and am thus qualified to complain.
AFAIK, Scotland and Wales are separate political entities/countries and therefore of no direct concern to English people.
So, for me as an Englishman to complain about say Scottish MP's is akin to an American citizen complaining about Canadian MP's.
It is not my business to poke about in Scottish affairs and vice-versa, so I would not do it.
* Of Viking and Norman extraction circa 950-1100 AD.
Complain about this comment
Sorry tory Boy's you've shown your true colours today.
The content of most of the Tory blogs on here are appalling just a ream of senseless spiteful rheteric against a young mother who wants to spend more time with her kids, For goodness sake you may not think that she did a very good job but she obviously did her best in the light of the fact that she gave birth to four young children while doing that job, the girl was obviously a dedicated polititian, and a dedicated Mum despite what you may think of her.
Had it have been Teresa May or Ruth Kelly, I personally would have wished her and her children good luck for the future,as I do indeed Mrs Kelly. If any of you guys have young daughters or grandaughters I hope that they get more respect from you than you have given Ruth Kelly.
Complain about this comment
She is resigning as Transport Secretary because she has to get in her Chelsea Tractor and drive the kids to school. When this Blair Rich Project Government came to power people had seen the mess that the Tories had made over trains , buses and road transport . We the electorate fondly assumed that they would reintegrate transport - amongst other things. As always we were deluded/mislead by the politicians who were too busy doing anything but lead the country effectively and to the will of the people. So Ruthie noticed that her kids had no properly integrated or balanced transport system ( it's even worse for those of us who don't live in the capital) and she had to take them herself. Instead of this debacle she said ( to herself ) wouldn't it be good if we had a properly integrated transit system - clean , cheap , reliable etc. So she spoke to Gordon who immediately said she should spend more time with her family. Cheap clean reliable transport - who do you think we are - the Labour Party?.
Complain about this comment
Buddie at 189
I quite like her. I think she's an underrated politician. Wouldn't even mind her taking over if GB can be persuaded to step down.
Haven't actually met her though, like you have ... I'm just going on TV and stuff.
Complain about this comment
183# MaxSceptic
Brown still has a major problem!
All his motley crew rallying and standing behind him. Only trouble is some are brandishing packets of Paxo!
It has now developed into a game of spot the Chef!
Complain about this comment
187 u9461192
Anybody?
Of caurse we bl***y would.
We don't have to write you out another list do we? is it that you dont see these list or the one Gordon gave you or is it that you are too stupid to accept them.
Min Wage,
Winter Fuel Allowance,
Maternity Leave,
If you really want me to go on I will but I fear its wasted on you.
Complain about this comment
"...the reason, it was said, was for family reasons."
That's what Enron's board members said as well...
Complain about this comment
Oh dear NuLabour, as I predicted earlier, are back in the Brown quagmire, and so soon.
Crash Gordons speech has an effect on his
core voters,unfortunately its not the one he wanted.
Complain about this comment
The content of most of the Tory blogs on here are appalling just a ream of senseless spiteful rheteric against a young mother who wants to spend more time with her kids,
What a load of patronizing, sexist clap-trap. So we're not allowed to criticize a rubbish minister in a rubbish government just because she's a guuuuurl.
And we're not allowed to criticize Gordon Brown because he had an eye injury about thirty years ago. ANd we've got to be nice because his kid died and another one is sick.
Look Gordie, Ruth, cry me a river. We've all got our own problems but we didn't hoodwink the country that we could run the place. We didn't promise an end to housing boom and bust and then promptly engineer another housing boom and bust.
This government, its members and its apologists fully deserve the amount of abuse they get. And I won't be laying off any of them just coz they're guuuuurls.
Out of your depth? Conflicted work-life balance? Not interested. Get out of here and get somebody who can do the job.
Next.
Complain about this comment
191 U9461192
I know its difficult for us posters to remember the pseudo number you have but it seems you also have that problem. you weren't asked the question Getrid was did you consider that he was incapable of answering it. Not only do you distrust labour supporters you dont have much faith in your own Tory boy's it would seem.
I think you should have left it to him he obviously couldn't do any worse than you just have.
Complain about this comment
JC at 192
You're not going all "England for the English" on us are you?
... "Of Viking and Norman extraction circa 950-1100 AD" ...
That's sure going back a long way. How many of London's permanent residents would pass that one, I wonder?
I've forgotten now, how did the Germans try to define a proper Ayrian back when they were into the racial purity thing? ... can you remember, John?
Complain about this comment
As an outsider, with respect to conventional politics, I suspect that being a woman politician, especially at the highest level, can be an extremely bruising and uncomfortable experience.
It seems to me that the 'Westminster' environment is still very 'macho' testosterone driven place,which is a dfifficult place for women to work effectively in, as they are more inclined (usually) to be co-operative.
The nexus of that is 'adversarial' politics, which I think is ultimately quite destructive and a luxury that we English can no longer afford.
We should have a roughly equal number of women to men MP's in Westminster but that will not happen until the place adopts a more human face.
Complain about this comment
We don't have to write you out another list do we? is it that you dont see these list or the one Gordon gave you
For every point on your list you consider a 'plus' I could provide you a point that a neutral observer would consider a double 'minus'. So, on balance, we are worse off under this government than under no government at all.
Do you seriously disagree with that?
Think carefully.
Min Wage,
Winter Fuel Allowance,
Maternity Leave,
I see your laughable list of 'achievements' and I over trump with your collosal list of catastrophes.
10p Tax.
Iraq War.
National debt (almost) doubled
By the way, maternity leave doesn't count, that's a negative - it discourages hiring of women.
Complain about this comment
Well said there at number 193, Mr G
Complain about this comment
132. Triffid100 wrote:
Nick,
Why is there no comment about Gordon deliberately misquoting Osborne in his speech ? (For BBC journalists - deliberately misquoting someone is called a "lie".)
--
to be fair to the beeb they pointed this out last night on newsnight
Complain about this comment
you weren't asked the question Getrid was did you consider that he was incapable of answering it.
And there was me thinking this was an open forum and we were free to chose what we answered and where and when we chipped in. I'm sure getrid has got other things to do than jump when you clap. If you've got a problem with any of the examples of hypocracy or false logic that I've given you then feel free to elaborate. Don't drag us all down the ad hominem personal abuse diversioanry route you apparatchiks favour when the weight of evidence is against you.
Tell you what,why don't you pootle off home. I'm sure your paymasters haven't got enough cash to pay you beyond five o'clock any way or are you on a salary? So that's what they did with JK Rowling's money.
Complain about this comment
# 200 U
Correct. No reason not to criticise a politician because they happen to be a woman. Also not good for the criticism of a politician who does happen to be a woman to be shot through with chauvanism as antiquated as it is ignorant.
Hey, what are "guuuuurls" by the way? - are they something else U have contempt for? ... you know, like public sector workers and dolies and stuff? Bet your mother really looks forward to seeing U.
And what do U mean by ending your post with "Next"? ... almost sounds like U think you've dealt with the point or something.
U are a quite an unpleasant and arrogant piece of work, aren't U?
Complain about this comment
Is there no end to it? Apart from planning to push all the toddlers age two and over into state nursery schools, and providing computers to school children, I now read the government want school dinners to be free for all schoolchildren to prevent obesity. Seeing the garbage that is brought in, because school kitchens were abolished, I can imagine only the desperately hungry or the clinically greedy will eat it. Is there a sinister plot in all this, will the food be drugged to make the kids compliant and docile? Today, when local government officials go around poking their long noses in our rubbish bins, anything is possible.
Complain about this comment
Boxing at 162
So, if a woman makes a senior position, it's down to PC ... is that the point you're making?
Complain about this comment
"U are quite an unpleasant and arrogant piece of work, aren't U?"
Sorry, didn't mean that!
forget about the "quite"
sorry again!
Complain about this comment
186: grandantidote
Lies and false logic
Complain about this comment
# 202
I certainly am going on a 'England for the English' tack.
But that has nothing whatsoever to do with the BNP/Germans/Aryans/Saxe-Coburg-Gothas, as I think you imply.
In my opinion, the criteria for 'being English' is quite straightforward and has nothing to do with race, religion, colour or creed.
It is this : if you think that you are English, then you are English.
In my opinion, England has now reached the point whereby it needs to be run by English politicians as a political entity separate from Scotland or Wales but within the confines of the Commonwealth, EU and UN.
Complain about this comment
164 Chales
Are you really seeing how things are or just looking at the world through the fog of your own ego?
Just wait till Pot_Kettle turns up.
Complain about this comment
And what do U mean by ending your post with "Next"? ... almost sounds like U think you've dealt with the point or something.
U are a quite an unpleasant and arrogant piece of work, aren't U?
Tut tut. And I thought the scales had fallen from your eyes. Hmmmm. Harder you must try my padawan the dark side to overcome.
Complain about this comment
JC at 213
Ah okay, sorry then. It was just that footnote you put in which seemed a bit odd.
I see Scotland being indy before too long but I can't get my head around the same for Wales. Too small, surely.
Complain about this comment
# 217
Looks like we've both regressed, doesn't it? Ah well.
Listen, you write very well and I'm sure that you're actually a super guy. Bet you'd even give me your last Rollo.
What do U think of Alastair Campbell? Big fan or not?
Complain about this comment
Having just seen Ruth Kelly talking of her resignation on the 6 o'clock News I can't help but say she would have been much more convincing if she had looked at the camera (looked us in the eye) rather than looking to the floor all the time. This just went to reinforce my belief that she is not being totally open with us and is hiding the true reason for her departure.
Complain about this comment
Something else disgraceful about this government. Just saw that cancer drugs are given depending in what area you live. I noiced that in London, the boroughs that are considered 'rich' such as Richmond and Kingston, have not been giving desperately ill people these expensive drugs. whereas Newham and Lewisham grant almost 100% of requests for the same medication. Is it because these are Nu Labour boroughs, or do they think that the mainly UK born residents of the wealthier boroughs are more passive and wont fight for their lives? It is very worrying.
Complain about this comment
218# Super_Trouper
Well it looks like Ruth Kelly has gone but her memory still lingers on.
This is a declaration of war: Ministers accuse Downing Street of forcing Kelly to quit early
A minister told the Evening Standard: Downing Street has pushed out the timing of the announcement for reasons of their own. I have given up trying to understand why they do things like this.
One word Paranoia
Complain about this comment
#214
"The fog of your own ego".............
Paaaaa...........fog on the tyne........
Carrots on the wine................
Why is Cameron not saying a word..........
By the way....has Osbourne's voice broke yet..................squeak.....squeak.....squeak
Complain about this comment
I wondered how my forces friends in Afghanistan and Iraq with all their family problems felt about this. Being asked to sacrifice their personal troubles for the sake of the nation. Perhaps it's yet another case of do as I say not do as I do? Or are the families of politicians just a little bit more equal than others?
Complain about this comment
It was clearly stated today by Ruth Kelly she was resigning due to personal / familly reasons. Why is the BBC trying to" SEX UP"(do you remember this phrase) this and other news stories just to make them more Newsworthy. I think they should report the news and not try to make it.
They accused Tony Blair and Campbell of carrying out this practise whilst they continue to do the very same with nearly all their News stories.
The BBC news is constantly being changed into a BBC Show where presenters are more interested in their own image than just delivering the news They have even started to call themselves CELEBRITIES when will this folly end.
Complain about this comment
#65: "Am I the only one who quite fancies her?"
...errr probably is my presumption.
I doubt you could fill a London taxi with men who fancy the Boy Wonder.
Caroline Flint, on the other hand, has distinct possibilities.
'Not to be kicked out of bed for eating biscuits', as I believe the more refined of the working classes would say.
Complain about this comment
# 216
The footnote was put in to demonstrate that we all came from 'somewhere else' originally.
That is, we were all immigrants at some point in the past.
I understand that all Europeans today are ultimately descended form seven women and ten men who trekked across from Asia Minor a long time ago.
I can't help but think that if it had been ten women rather than seven, then maybe there would have been a lot less fighting in Europe in the intervening period.
PS. Are you posting to yourself in # 217?Could be worrying, see a doctor.
Complain about this comment
224. palladas
Caroline Flint, on the other hand, has distinct possibilities.
'Not to be kicked out of bed for eating biscuits', as I believe the more refined of the working classes would say.
Distinct possibilities?....mmmmmm
According to my partner so has Miliband, but I don't quite know what she means......
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
204 U9461192.
Now look what you've done you've forced me into giving you my list again but I dont mind I like to show just some of Labour's archievments over the last ten years.
Now what was it you were saying my sick friend,Oh!Yes!here it is,
"For every point on your list you consider a 'plus' I could provide you a point that a neutral observer would consider a double 'minus'. So, on balance, we are worse off under this government than under no government at all."
Gosh you've got a busy night in front of you,
lets see if you put your money were your mouth is. Incidentally why do you get a double minus but of course thats the way Tories work isn't it?.
Two million back to work.
Peace in Northern ireland.
Thousands more nurses.
Thousands more doctors.
Community police.
Thousands more regular police.
Thousands more teachers Teachers assistants.
Better and more schools that are much better equipped .
Better and more hospitals with infinitely better equipment.
Free museums.
Free bus passes for the elderly.
Free swimming for the elderly,and dozens more leisure centers.
Free TV for the elderly.
£250 winter allowance for over 65s, £400 over 80s.
Sure start.
Tax credits.
more maternity allowance for pregnant mothers.
Much increased family allowance
Iincreased return to work and pay conditions for mothers with new babies.
Much longer maternity leave for mums and dads.
More pay for child care.
Bank independance.
Minimum wage.
Massive overseas aid.
Overseas tax relief for many struggling countries.
The first to send large amounts of aid to countries with natural disasters.
Banning smoking in public places.
Taking an active part in taking action in several wars to free countless millions of people from subjugation thus giving millions of younsters a better chance in life.
Giving the police stronger powers to keep us safe from terrorists.
Bringing in the 28 day remand law
Giving conntracts to build two new trident submarines also two air craft carriers which in the light of recent russian military moves was a very wise thing to do.
Putting thousands of speed camerars in place thus cutting down huge numbers of lives being lost paticularly children.
Saving Northern Rock which in turn saved a catastrophic run on the banks that Would have decimated the banking system in this country.
Saved Rail track.
Paid millions out to disabled miners that had been waitng for the Tories to pay up for years.
Kept inflation and interest rates the lowest since records began and for the longest period,
Made inroads into the reform of the house of lords.
Banned fox hunting and hunting with dogs
Removed us from the tory fuel escalater which reduced the price of fuel well below the price it would have been under the tories. they have introduced two hundred thousand young people into apprenticships and have moves afoot to get another couple of hundred thousand in.
well there are lots more. I am sure you will wriggle and squirm on some of these but there you are,I didn't want to write this list
but you ridiculous childish arrogance left me no option. There a few more that I could add but it would be wasted on you as this list probably will be.
Complain about this comment
223 tommy252
as paxman points out it is only a conspiracy theory - but it was announced at 3am, at a very unfortunate time just after the conference, after a bunch of labour resignations and sackings of rebels, and it's well known she isn't a brown fan
i don't know about you but i tend to raise an eyebrow at events such as these and think the media have a right to question this bizarrely timed decision, which couldn't wait a week, or even a night
...or maybe i should just trust the party line - because they're always honest aren't they?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
re: 201 grandantidote
U9461192 answered the question quite nicely, so I just say "ditto" to his reply.
There's a massive list of other things that could be added, but most people (including me) don't have the time to construct such a list unless they're in politics for a living, and it's self-evident to any reasonable person who read/saw the speech that it was indeed all just hypocrisy, lies, false logic, and buck-passing.
Complain about this comment
@182
Yes the rest was sold off by Maggie and Gordon (westinghouse) but in Maggies case they were sold in an open share issue (British gas was way undervalued but that's a different story)
The difference with this particular deal is the buyer. EDF (along with other utility companies) have just hiked prices to customers and reported massive profits. These profits have then been used to buy British Energy from the government. In effect we pay more and the government trousers 4 billion.
I also have qualms about our nuclear power infrastructure being owned by another government (EDF is 87% owned by the French government). That may just be me but it makes me uneasy.
Complain about this comment
re: 228 grandantidote
"Peace in Northern ireland"
It was actually John Major's government who did most of the work for that. Blair just tidied up at the end.
"Two million back to work"
Most of the real figures are hidden in non-jobs or other diversionary figures such as apprenticeships or incapacity etc. I wouldn't trust any stats on this front (or any other front) that the government quote.
"Community police"
Terrible idea to have loads of "police" in power who have no more training/power than a traffic warden does. I'd rather have proper police.
"tax credits"
I see this as a minus; it's a nightmare to claim and it doesn't make logical sense to take away, say £100 in overtaxing and then get people to claim back, say, £50 via reams of forms. Makes more sense to simply tax people the £50 difference.
"Giving the police stronger powers to keep us safe from terrorists"
If that means locking innocent people up for 42 days just because they disagree with the government, then I see that as a minus.
"speed cameras"
Again, a minus; they're mostly put in places where there's no risk, and specifically put in the place that brings in the most money. For example instead of putting a camera outside the schools where we live, they put them at the bottom of a hill a mile away from a school. If they were put in places which genuinely helped save lives then that'd be great, but they're not; they're put in places that make the most money.
"Saving Northern Rock"
It was the government who failed to regulate; if Brown had done his job properly then Northern Rock never would have been allowed to get anywhere near where they did.
Some side-effects of a labour government have been positive (but not many), but given the amount of money that they've thrown at things that's not surprising.
If you throw enough money at something then some of it's going to stick. Generally I'd say overall it's a massive minus; we've had some beneficial side effects but the overall effect is negative when you consider how much things could have changed if the country had been managed properly.
Complain about this comment
#31
If I was a minister who was going to be culled next week then I would resign now. Get your retaliation in first. No matter what Gordon may say he is going to have his 'night of the long knieves' yes I am that old, because it is 'events dear boy, events' which are running this country, there is no forward plan.
Consider our Gordon and his 'successes'. The flood, still not sorted for many. Avian flu, yeah right, well I remember Ben Bradshaw, then a minister with responsibilty for DEFRA, some years ago on our radios telling is about a test run for some sort of contingency planning and what happened they found one, yes one, swan or some other bird, but don't be scared. The foot and mouth, did that, or did it not, come from a government establishment.
I repeat, if I was one of the ministers who know that they are going are thiks they are, do the honourable thing and go now, if you take Gordon with you, so be it. But what ever youdo don't go on the media against that awful John Prescott who will put his hand on your shoulder and tell you that you are 'bitter' and that is why you quit. I don't think you are, I think that you have principles so lacking in other members.
I think that MPs have to look into their souls, is fame the spur for your actions, or do you actually have principles.
Complain about this comment
re: 232 maas101
I think having all our Nuclear Power stations owned/run by another country is part of labour's "Energy Security" plan.
In fact I'm surprised they didn't offer them for free to Iran.
Complain about this comment
JC @ 225
Here's your post.
... "I deliberately limit my castigation to the English people because I am English* and live in England and am thus qualified to complain.
* Of Viking and Norman extraction circa 950-1100 AD" ...
Now, does that look like you're stressing that "we all came from somewhere else"?
Or does it more look like a racially based definition of what it is to be truly English?
C'mon.
Complain about this comment
re: 236 sagamix
I thought we all came from bacteria?
It's just a question of timing as to where it is that someone thinks we came from.
Person "x" could be from England, Europe, Africa, or bacteria; just depends how far back you want to go.
I say just use the present situation (ie where you physically are at the moment).
If I live in england (legally) then I'm english, and I'd like my MP to vote on english matters.
If I live in scotland then I want my MP to vote on scottish matters and I don't expect him/her to force a law on the english which doesn't apply to scotland.
Whether I live in england or scotland, I don't like the idea of Europe imposing their will on my country.
Complain about this comment
228. grandantidote wrote:
Labours biggest failures upto 2006
It needs updating a bit.
Complain about this comment
228. grandantidote
Oh yes and Im still rolling on the floor about this:
Taking an active part in taking action in several wars to free countless millions of people from subjugation thus giving millions of younsters a better chance in life.
You make the Nu Labour spin machine look like school children.
Complain about this comment
#228
Ok granted that your list was made since 1997, but they were put into place during the premiership of a certain Mr Tony Blair.
Now, our Tony was overthrown by a bloodless coup by a certain Gordon Brown. So, what has been achieved whilst Gordon is our unelected Prime Minister. What does he actually intend to do, which will be actually achieved by the time of the coming election. I use the term coming election because if you listen to his plans then they will not come in until some time after 2010, when there must be an election.
Is Gordon going to hang on until the very last minute, I think not, because he will be more of a hostage to events. So, only a complete imbecile would do that, a mad person, would hang on until they were ingloriously thrown out of office.
As I have said before really can't wait for the reshuffle Nick, should be really interesting.
Complain about this comment
Nick,
surely nobody can disagree if I was to say that if, and it is a big if, the taxpayers in Britain and America are to bale out the banks then it must be done on the basis of debt for equity.
We will give you the money but in return we will have shares, we want a controlling interest in the company so that we can decide remuneration and dividends. Now, that would be fair. Representatives on the board of the taxpayer, the government, and the poor.
As for short selling by hedge funds, surely, as I have said elsewhwere, to be a short seller you have to have the shares to sell. They are borrowed from the pension funds. The pension fund trustees can stop this by not allowing it. You don't need a change to the law you just need pension fund trustees who know what they are doing.
Complain about this comment
228. grandantidote
Putting thousands of speed camerars in place thus cutting down huge numbers of lives being lost paticularly children.
in 2007 2943 people died on the roads.
Where as Super bugs kill 10,000 people a year
Shame they dont put the same efforts into cleaning the hospitals isnt it, guess there just isnt the revenue in it.
Hey Ho
Complain about this comment
@241
Pension funds are paid to lend their shares. This is one way they can help the fund after Gordon raided them. A responsible trustee makes as much money as he can to help his fund. The practice became much more common after Gordo's raid.
You don't need to own or even have borrowed the shares to sell them. This is naked short selling. You sell shares that you don't have on the expectation that by the time you are expected to deliver the shares you will be able to buy enough to complete the transaction at a lower price. This practice has been made illegal in the states (although it still goes on).
Complain about this comment
237. getridofgordonnow
I thought we all came from bacteria
Id run this by Red Derek, I think his reply will add considerable weight to your thesis.
Complain about this comment
It is obvious why the timing is as it is.
Next week will be David Cameron's big speech.
We are also told that there will be a Cabinet re-shuffle.
It is not rocket science to predict that these will be on the same day, enabled by the timing of Ruth Kelly' resignation, thus reducing the impact of David's speech.
I would be surprised if this is not exactly what happens.
Complain about this comment
#244
Carrots......carbon 17
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#243
The problem is that the short selling drives the price of the share down. I know that the pension fund receives an income but it does not cover the capital losses sustained.
The pension fund is not allowed under Inland Revenue rules to trade their holdings, for obvious reasons. at every valuation the employees and employers have to keep topping up the fund to keep it solvent. The trouble is that pension funds need liquidity, not solvency, because now we are in the situation where more employees become a pensioner. They need to look at the future cash flows of the funds. How are they going to raise cash to pay, borrow it against the assets?
Also, a large number of companies are now selling their pension funds to avoid future problems.
Complain about this comment
239 carrots , I find it strange that you find that over a hundred of our lads that went to war and paid the ultimate price for trying to free a country where the people were suffering under unbearable subjagation and heinies tyranny. Also another country where women and female children were treated like chattels , given no chance to gain any education, they were treated like cattle merely there for the mens pleasure and for breeding. some thing that you would roll about the floor laughing about.
242
"in 2007 2943 people died on the roads."
I'm not to sure of the stats but I believe that about 200 people were estimated to have been saved by these speed cameras.
I take you would have rolled around laughing if they hadn't survived also. as long as you and others want to break the law of the road[ie Dave Cameron] then thats OK is it?.
Its amazing what short memories you Tories have, the matrons were abandon by your lot, they had Control over hospital cleaners and did a better job than the contractors the tories brought in, Mrsa didn't somehow just appear it was always there but it was the poor cleaning of the contractos that helped it spread, its this government who are putting matrons back into hospitals and have already cut down the incidence of Mrsa greatly.
Do try to keep up to date Carrots Gordon told you all this in his speech but I suppose thats another one of the things you didn't want to hear.
Just by the way when I last put this list up a little while ago it was accepted by a number of your tory friends with a few small proviso's
Complain about this comment
246. derekbarker
Carbon 17??
There is only one positively magnatised carbon nanostructure around here and it aint me.
Complain about this comment
240 TAG I was asked for a list of labour archievments since 1997 not Gordon Browns.
Complain about this comment
I don't think Gordon Brown will get away with any obvious publicity exercises during The Conservative Party Conference this time around. The media are all fairly wise to his tricks after his timely visit to Iraq last year. He was fairly comprehensively castigated for his cheap stunt by all the major political commentators. As far as Ruth Kelly is concerned in my complete innocence I had accepted her version of why she resigned her office hook line and sinker. It sounded very plausible to me until I saw The Press reports that a close pal had said she disagreed with the direction of Gordon Brown's leadership and that that was the real reason for her resignation. Shows how close my ears are to the ground.
Moving on to Brown's 10 point surge in the polls that was before The Kelly shambles and also before David Cameron's speech at The Conservative Party Conference. I would expect the surge to fall back again after that. The majority of people still don't see him as the ideal P.M. in touch with their concerns.
Complain about this comment
245 julian w138 , Now your going to tell me that the Tories would never have have a dastardly plan like that, aren't you.
Complain about this comment
247 I have got to give U9461192 credit he's got fast fingers 231 getridofgordonnow he's even moderating for you now, your not the same person are you? he's a moderater snitch guys. read this quick or it will be gone, be quick!
Complain about this comment
249. grandantidote.
You see more spin:
I clearly wasnt laughing at the situation or at the dead.
Im laughing at your twist and interpretation of why we went to war in the first place.
If Blair went to war to free countless millions of people from subjugation thus giving millions of younsters a better chance in life.
Then our boys would be spread all over the globe, fighting for justice, dying in the thousands and unikely to ever see home again.
He went war for the sake of politics and his ego, and your new leader kept his head down.
Complain about this comment
252 Good morning Miss Waldorf.
I know that the press love to have a go at GB and seize every oportunity to denigrate Gordon Brown no matter what he does.
I may be niave but I am convinced that,
"after his timely visit to Iraq last year. He was fairly comprehensively castigated for his cheap stunt "
He went to iraq at Xmas as a gesture of goodwill for the festive season and hoping to bring some good cheer by bringing 2000 troops home. unfortunately shortly after his return there was a uprising in Basra and the Troops coming home sadly had to be postponed. Who was it that said, "events dear boy events"
I wonder what excuse Cameron has for visiting Iraq, you can bet your bottom dollar that he has no ulterior motive cant you ?.
You say
"The Press reports that a close pal had said she disagreed with the direction of Gordon Brown's leadership and that that was the real reason for her resignation"
Two wonderful saurces of information that encouraged you to turn from a normal understanding women, into a total disbeliever. Tell me Nigella when have the press ever told the truth about anything if they dont have a story they will make one up you know the old adage ,"Don't let the truth stand in the way of a good story"
and the source of this story "A close pal"
Now I reckon she must have been a real pal to go out and tell this story which contradicts what her Close pal had told the country hours before, this close pal probably met her once at the mother and baby clinic. what amazes me is that you and many others will probably use this story as gospel and that saddens me
because I think your first reaction was the right one
Have you noticed I am being moderated again by someone who can't face the truth
I complained about this piece belownot to the moderater but to the guy himself, tell me what you think, he wrote it but every time I put it up its referred.
"And we're not allowed to criticize Gordon Brown because he had an eye injury about thirty years ago. ANd we've got to be nice because his kid died and another one is sick."
Be quick because he'll probably refer this.
Complain about this comment
5. At 09:18am on 24 Sep 2008, Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
After the Independent explicitly stated that talk of cabinet ministers plotting a coup was complete junk, how can I believe a single word you're saying, Nick?
------------------------------
Well, if the Independent said so...
Complain about this comment
#249
What has to be understood is that, taking Afghanistan, when the soldiers went into that country there was every opportunity to win the peace. What did they do, they started almost immediately to cast their eyes on Iraq. Now, if you ask any of the actual soldiers who were in Iraq afetr the invasion they will tell you how well they got on with the locals. They wanted peace as well. They knew that things had gone terribly wrong.
It is the fact that the war against Iraq was illegal, well i think so, that we could have secured Afghanistan if only we had not allowed Bush and Blair to get away with their duplicity. They should both be impeached. Brown could have stopped it in his tracks, he could have resigned and brought down the government and we, as a people, would not be tainted by what has happened, in both these countries, and it is also being done all of the globe.
I feel ashamed by what the politicians have done. If there is a hell then when they die I hope they go there, even that would not be bad enough. Shame on them, shame on them all.
Complain about this comment
getrid at 237
Indeed. Or from Adam and Eve if you think like the possible next VP of the States.
But what do you think JC was driving at with his rather precise definition?
Complain about this comment
249 carrots Are you honestly saying that Tony Blair sent men to the death as you say
"He went war for the sake of politics and his ego, and your new leader kept his head down."
Carrots I dispair of people like you, if you feel thats right, whats your excuse for all the gung Ho! Tories who voted in a higher ratio pro rata than the labour party.
Including the man you want as a new leader
He will still tell you quite confidently that he was and still is in favour of both wars.
If they didn't support the war why do they still support the wars.Please dont tell me that they were told lies they knew exactly what the labour party did,
"You see more spin:"
Well old chap what do you call spin I understood it to mean to give a story with a particular bias,
239 carrots , I find it strange that you find that over a hundred of our lads that went to war and paid the ultimate price for trying to free a country where the people were suffering under unbearable subjagation and heinies tyranny. Also another country where women and female children were treated like chattels , given no chance to gain any education, they were treated like cattle merely there for the mens pleasure and for breeding. some thing that you would roll about the floor laughing about.
Who is the bias in favour of Tony Blair or HM parliament.
You call that discription spin. Thats no more spin than you absurd discripton of the events.
Of course your opinion of Tony Blair overides the opinions of more than half the world leaders I wonder why you think they made him peace envoy for the middle east.
I don't suppose their will be any spin in your reply.
Complain about this comment
4 kids under 11 so only now does she think they need her?Funny timing,especially when her own gov allows single parents to look after kids until they are at least at school implying that is time when kids most need their mothers.
How did she manage-house husband,nanny,her mother,mother-in-law?
Or a rational economic decision in true Blairite tradition to maximise her earnings while she could?Nothing wrong with that if only she and many others like her in new Labour would admit it.
And the decision to work for 11 years as her kids grew up seems directly opposite to her holier than thou attitude at Oxbridge(as reported) and to the attitude of the Catholic Church on the importance of the family,especially the mother ,in rearing children.Pick and mix Socialism and Catholicism to me!
Complain about this comment
260. grandantidote
SPIN
Wont do reason for wars, old news and everyone knows it was not one of Labours finest moments.
Tony Blair... middle east peace envoy....
Yeahhh... like thats gona work.
Complain about this comment
re: 259 sagamix
Nothing untoward there from what I could see; I think he was just citing one example of many of why he'd consider himself english, but the overriding factor he says was simply living here legally.
JC doesn't strike me as a jingoistic person, just someone who'd like to be governed by people who also live on his own turf, which at the end of the day should be a fundamental democratic right.
re: 254 grandantidote
U9461192's a person with their own mind, and they're not me; it's just that the posting they made was pretty much identical to what I would have written myself if I'd gotten around to it. An increasing number of people are holding the same views now (scales fallen from eyes etc), so you'll probably get quite a few re-iterations of the same thing, doesn't mean it's the same person. In fact, labour are about to launch an attack on the blogs, so you might get quite a few paid labour employees posting the same thing as each other in the next few weeks, those will essentially be from the same person (Derek Draper). If you suddenly see a lot of pro-labour postings with very detailed technical statistics, that'll be why.
Note the big difference between labour and tory outlooks on blogs; labour want to employ people to actively rebut tory lines on blogs (ie 1984 style), whereas the tories are just being nice to blog site owners to try and convince them to post nicer things about them.
I've never reported a blog entry for moderation anywhere, and never would. I think that a valid argument should always be made to counter "bad" blog entries. The valid arguments always win out in the end; shouting loudly doesn't win an argument, logic reason and fairness does.
Complain about this comment
'shouting loudly doesn't win an argument, logic reason and fairness does'.
I agree entirely with this observation. Would that you took your own advice.
Complain about this comment
I do apologise. That was getrid's phrase not grandy's. Very true nevertheless,
Complain about this comment
262 carrots, were back to the old Tory "everyone" carrots, it might surprise you to know that you dont speak for "everyone", as much as you like to think you do.
"Tony Blair... middle east peace envoy....
Yeahhh... like thats gona work."
Again despite your protestations its fact. I know thats something Tories have problems with.
Commisioned by the United Nations because they thought a warmongering despot was the man for the job.
Complain about this comment
263 Getridofgordonnow,
"Note the big difference between labour and tory outlooks on blogs; labour want to employ people to actively rebut tory lines on blogs (ie 1984 style), whereas the tories are just being nice to blog site owners to try and convince them to post nicer things about them."
Obviously a joke so I will take it in the spirit was given.
"I've never reported a blog entry for moderation anywhere, and never would. I think that a valid argument should always be made to counter "bad" blog entries. The valid arguments always win out in the end; shouting loudly doesn't win an argument, logic reason and fairness does."
Your absolutly right I couldn't agree more,
So why is it that you appear to support U94
When he referres me to the moderaters not once but several times for disagreeing with him.
U94 wrote,
ANd we've got to be nice because his kid died and another one is sick."
So you think that this is reasonable and fair blogging do you?.
I can promise you that if I couldn't carry out a debate without using that type of gutter talk I would give up blogging for whatever life I have left.
We both have our corner to fight and thats fair game we have a go at MPs on both sides but we should never never make remarks of that kind about the loss of a childs life or another childs sickness.
I understand that David Cameron has a child that is not to well but rather than make unpleasant remarks about their tragic situation I would chop my fingers off.
Complain about this comment
264 Miss waldorf, good morning.
Don't take this as a criticism but do try to put in the blog number to which your responding, I am afraid it gets confusing for both yourself and others.
"'shouting loudly doesn't win an argument, logic reason and fairness does'.
Below
I think you meant that to be addressed to me. and thats OK I understand what your saying but dont you think that that remark could have applied to many on these blogs,
I wont mention names as they will dive in and moderate me and then you will criticise me for having so many moderations, had you have checked you would see they were referred moderations made by people on here that like to give but are unable to take.
You say
I agree entirely with this observation. Would that you took your own advice"
As I do also but I think to be fair we all do a bit of ranting from time to time including you lady and especially Get Rid so what his beef is I have no Idea.
I sent this to you to read and hopefully to comment on, but you didn't reply, instead you decided to have a little dig at me for fighting my corner against other bloggers.
I appose adults, not make thoroughly unpleasant remarks about dead and sick children. I had thought that being a woman that this remark would have been abhorrent to you but sadly it seems not.
I complained about this piece below not to the moderater but to the guy himself, tell me what you think. He wrote it but every time I complain in the way you suggest and I put it up its referred to the moderaters
I'm referred by him.
This is the piece in question, I could have referred it to the moderaters but chose to write to this unsavoury person myself only to be moderated each time.
Read it and weep.
"And we're not allowed to criticize Gordon Brown because he had an eye injury about thirty years ago. ANd we've got to be nice because his kid died and another one is sick."
Perhaps you have to have lost a child or have a sick child to understand the anger that rises with comments of this kind.
Strangely the one man that I am sure would agree with me is David Cameron,
Complain about this comment
re: 267 grandantidote
I don't support anyone for reporting entries to the moderator; there shouldn't be any need to do so; the bbc's own moderation should be more than enough.
Brown's gone on about his personal family problems quite a lot in interviews, and he's used them to try and get sympathy/support for his political incompetence, and that's unforgivable in my book.
If Brown was worried about it then he should simply say; "none of your business. ask something else" when someone asks him about his kids, and that would be fair enough. But he doesn't. He keeps on going on about it. I just want him to shut up about it; it's got no relevance/place in political/public life and I find it offensive that he uses that kind of thing to try and get public sympathy for his political failings.
This is where Blair was right; when people asked him about things like, say, his kids having the mmr jab, he just said "don't care how much you hassle me about it; ask as many times as you want, but I won't answer because it's private." People get a massive amount of respect for that attitude from most people. Brown should learn from Blair on that front and leave his personal life out of politics. If he leaves it out of politics then other people will too.
Complain about this comment
268:
I agree it's probably best to keep away from personal comments such as these. It tends to set off knee jerk reactions from his loyal supporters. It's just that the man himself keeps bringing them up as an example of his strength in adversity. We all know about these setbacks and sympathise with him as a result but they have nothing to do with his perceived shortcomings as a political leader or financial strategist.
Complain about this comment
255 Carrots,
You say
If Blair went to war to free countless millions of people from subjugation thus giving millions of younsters a better chance in life.
Then our boys would be spread all over the globe, fighting for justice, dying in the thousands and unikely to ever see home again.
As I say I dispair at the attitude of people like you,
Your first paragraph is simply a reiteration of the piece I wrote.so needs no comment from me.
The second paragraph only shows your misunderstanding of why these two countries were singled out.
Afghanistan was a hotbed for the Taliban whose sole object in life was to indoctrinate and train young innocent gullible girls and boys to go out into the world and kill and destroy as many people of all religeons as they possibly could.
Supposedly but erroneously in the name of Allah, noticably none of these brave people that trained these youngsters had the courage to lead by example.
There were two other issues involved, the plight of the women and young girls the subject of which I have already commented on earlier.
The remaining factor is the opium. and that is proving to be the most difficult, its the life blood of many of these people in the south. I suppose it would be like trying to stop British farmer growing potatoes and Cabbages. its some thing they have done for eons.
So its very difficult and the Taliban have unfortunately not yet been defeated and they actively encourage the growth of opium because it finds its way onto the streets of the west and destroys countless lives there.
That was the reasons for the war in Afghanistan
Iraq is a different kettle of fish, and requires more room than I should take on these blogs, but I have done it before and will again if any one is interested.
You say
"Then our boys would be spread all over the globe, fighting for justice, dying in the thousands and unikely to ever see home again."
I have to agree with you that there are a number of countries in the world that treat their people badly. but we particularly in Britain are not able to be the worlds policemen.
The difference is that if we see another country behaving badly then we can only ask for sanctions.
Say for a instance we knew of a country that had been given twelve united nations resolutions and had ignored them, and they were to invade a neighbour in conflict that cost the live's of two million people and they ran a regime where the president could shoot members of his goverment on the floor of their debating chamber because they didnt agree with him, and he gave his children the same rights to kill at their pleasure, then if he were to give his troops and police permission to take people off the street and rape torture and the kill them to the extent that they would have to dig not one but many mass graves in order to contain ten to fifteen thousand of their own people in each of them and they wouldn't have to give no explanation why.
Then if this same regime decided that they would like to experiment with a little chemical warfare on a village of innocent people which would result in the live's of a few thousand people, then as if they wanted to top that they decided to invade another country and take over their oilfeilds because they didnt think that they had enough of their own. and if defeated they would set fire to the oilfields of the other nation they invaded and their own in defeat that it would cause one of the worst man made ecological disasters of all time.
Then I think that if that were to happen in any where in the world other nations might take a pretty dim view of it and decide it has to stop. Especially if there were a strong suspicion that they had weapons of mass destruction, and the world were absolutley sure that this country had had them and used them before
Now I don't know of any country in the world thats doing even a quarter of these things so there would not be any likelyhood of sending our lads out to sort it out would there?..
Do you know of any?.
Complain about this comment
270 Miss waldorf, In a book of his life story.
be rather odd if he left it out dont you think?
You say
but they have nothing to do with his perceived shortcomings as a political leader or financial strategist.
And good lady that is exactly the point I am making, there are certain levels to which we may sink but that comment was beyond that level.
finally
It tends to set off knee jerk reactions from his loyal supporters.
I may be old fashioned in my outlook but if someone had wrote that type of comment about Dave's child or Gordons I would forget politics and have what you call a knee jerk reaction in either case.
Do you really hate GB that much that you can't bring yourself to say that the comment about his dead child and sick child was totally out of order.
Complain about this comment
269 getrid, I didn't ask you for all that guff much of which could be repudiated i merely asked if you thought that the comment was justified if not the content then the manner in which it was written.
Try again. lets see if the milk of human kindness is anyware to be found in a Conservative it will tell us a lot.
"And we're not allowed to criticize Gordon Brown because he had an eye injury about thirty years ago. ANd we've got to be nice because his kid died and another one is sick."
do you like that statement? try the wife.
Complain about this comment
grandy' I've already said it is uncalled for to make distasteful remarks about people's afflictions and I wasn't referring to his book either. I was referring to continuing references in his speeches and in newspaper articles. I don't want to know about any politician's personal baggage. I want to know what they are going to do to protect my pension and my standard of living.
Complain about this comment
#264
"Shouting loudly does not win an argument; logic, reason and fairness does".
I would disagree (at least in the context of this blog).
Shouting loudly wins the argument here. Logic and reason can go and take a hike. What is fairness?
There is an ideologically right position (in more ways than one). Minority view contributors are shouted down by many posters. There is no debate or rational arguments. Their views are self-evidently true, and if you disagree with these views (even when the actual hard facts are on your side) you are obviously on the pay-roll of the Labour Party.
Complain about this comment
re: 273 grandantidote
No, I didn't like that statement, but neither do I like Brown using his personal family problems to gain public sympathy for his failings as chancellor/pm, it evens out in my view.
Remember that Brown is essentially saying exactly what the other poster paraphrased almost every time he's interviewed (he implies it all the time, although he's not truly explicit), and I find that infinitely more offensive than a member of the public chastising him for it.
I personally wouldn't have made the statement that was made on the blog because I just find it distasteful (not unfair, but distasteful; I still think it's a fair thing to say in the situation; whether or not it's distasteful is another matter)
The main issue is still there/relevant, which is that Brown should never use his children as a way of gaining public sympathy. If he does do that then he deserves whatever criticism he gets on that front.
Complain about this comment
276 getridofgordonow,
You see Getrid I find this perplexing. the first thing being that not in my wildest stretch of imagination can I believe that anyone never mind GB would use the death of a child and the sickness off another,to gain public sympathy for their failings at anything as you state below, but if they did people would have the same reaction as you, including myself, so that would be callous and non productive, wouldn't it?
And as much as you carry this unreasonable hatred of Brown surely you would concede that he is not that stupid or insensitive especially regarding his and his wife's dead child.
I ask but dont expect a answer but have you ever lost a child? Well, I have, perhaps you have to feel that pain to begin to understand it, he and his wife had that pain, but he kept on with the job, which I think was admirable. its a pain so great that I for forty five years, on the anniversary of his death have visited the grave of my son without fail some times coming home from abroad to lay flowers, I tell you this not to gain any sympathy from you but merely to point out how tragic it is to lose a child and to try to get across to you that no parent would use that circumstance to benefit themselves.
So this statement of yours below is not only unfounded but also illconsidered, if the man does wear his heart on his sleeve thats not a sign of weakness its a sign of compassion.
it certainly doesn't even out to some unpleasant characters malevolent remarks.
"No, I didn't like that statement, but neither do I like Brown using his personal family problems to gain public sympathy for his failings as chancellor/pm, it evens out in my view."
You say now, that this was where Blair was right with regard to mmr, I wonder if that was your opinion at the time.
I remember this clearly and I remember that TB was constantly harrassed by the Tories And even worse the Tory press to reveal whether his child had received the mmr jab and was publicly condemned by these same people for not giving that information, now GB is being condemned not by the press to my knowledge but probably, perhaps not by you [not much compassion in your post though] but by a number of Tories on here for doing exactly what they wanted TB to do, that is be open about his family,
"This is where Blair was right; when people asked him about things like, say, his kids having the mmr jab, he just said "don't care how much you hassle me about it; ask as many times as you want, but I won't answer because it's private"
This all smells a lot like double standards to me. What would interest me being as people are always pulling out stats from god knows where, how many times has GB mentioned his tragic loss in speeches or interviews, and in the interviews whether it was he or the interviewer that broached the subject first.
Still very little compassion from the Tory ranks, that doesn't bode well for the election of a Tory party if the people who elect them are so deviod of compassionate feelings now does it.
Complain about this comment
275 Balhamu there are as you know many more Tory bloggers on here than Labour thats probably because Labour are generally working class and have to go out to work. but nevertheless as you say if we get a new Labour blogger on here, Derek Barker for instance he has to be in the pay of the Labour party, it's pathetic, but as I said a week ago I am beginning to smell the fear in the tory posts, can you smell the beginnings of desperation.
Complain about this comment
re: 277 grandantidote
I do not concede that he's not that stupid. Anyone who doubles the tax rates of the poorest people but doesn't understand that it's going to adversely effect people on low incomes is clearly very very stupid.
There are lots of things that he's done/said which lead a lot of people (including me) to think that although he might have a good memory for statistics, his common sense and reason is pretty much non-existent. So, he might have a high IQ, but that doesn't make him truly intelligent, it's a different kind of intelligence that doesn't translate to the real world.
Regarding the mmr jab question that Blair refused to answer; yes, I did think the same thing at the time. I thought "good on him".
Brown is not always explicit when he goes on about his family problems (although he has been very explicit a couple of times about it in the media). Generally he makes it implicit and talks about his "personal challenges" etc in a bid for sympathy and to buy some more time in the job. He does it a lot; I think he does it without really thinking about it; it's just an automatic self-defence mechanism when he gets criticised in his job. I don't want to know about his personal problems; I just want him to do his job properly.
I have sympathy on a personal level for what happened to him, but that's got absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I think he does the right thing in his job.
If he was pushing trolleys in a supermarket for his job then I'd say; fine, just carry on.
But he's not; he's running the country, so personal sympathies need to be put aside when weighing up his job, because the bigger picture is way too important.
The decisions that he makes can make or break millions of peoples' lives at the drop of a hat, and that means that you need to put personal sympathies completely aside and look at the greater good.
Complain about this comment
279Getridofgordonow Your first para is in effect correct but he has apologised for that mistake and imediately took steps to put it right.
It doesn't make it right but the Tories had been calling out for the !0p tax rate up until it came into being at which time they then condemned the government, so it leads one to believe that they were equally stupid or had used their previous support as a ploy in order for the government to believe they had their support. which would have been remarkably cunning, but I dont think Gidion is clever enough for that so I think the former is the more likely.
This would not be a unique act by the Tories as they did the same thing with northern Rock. and are pulling the same stunt over regulation just this morning opposed regulation since it was introduced and now complaining that there wasn't enough regulation.
I dont understand how you think that when he talks of his" personal challenges"etc, that its in a bid for sympathy, I dont see it as a bid for sympathy, he is just emphasising the point that when faced with adversity you have to get on with life. Which in fact is exactly what he's doing now despite all the name calling and the media trying to stir up more problems. He's just getting on with the job, all the garbage being thrown at him by these people mean nothing, what counts to him is he is doing what he thinks is right for the country, and without having to repeat my list, other than this aviodable recession,we've had a very good ten year period. I think probably the best in the history of this country certainly the best in my lifetime.
The rest of your post I broadly agree with including the bit about personal sympathies but that doesn't give anyone carte blanche
to make unsavoury remarks about the death of his child, for that there is no excuse.
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS