Labour's next leader?
Don't build up your hopes they said before the speech of "Labour's next leader". David Miliband had only been given seven minutes to speak, they said, and, besides, he could only talk about foreign affairs. That's what you call depressing expectations.
When the speech came, though, it was more than 20 minutes long and strayed a long long way beyond foreign affairs. Thus, "Labour's next leader" hailed Gordon Brown for his achievements in the past - increasing international aid and banning cluster bombs - whilst stressing that what mattered was what Labour would do in the future.
Thus, he spoke of "defeating fatalism with hope" and made it abundantly plain that this is what he could offer his party. Thus, he sought to rouse the audience by declaring that "these Tories" (a Blair phrase) "are beatable". Nothing in the text was openly disloyal but everything about it declared "I'm here if you want me to lead you".
It was a much better speech than last year's although he still delivers a text like an eager company executive briefing his junior staff. The party was warm towards him although the hall was far from full for the biggest speech at this conference after Gordon Brown's.
This, then, felt like the performance of a man slowly establishing himself as one of his party's big players. However, from my position in the hall, I detected none of the buzz, none of the electricity, none of the raw anticipation necessary to inspire people to resign their ministerial jobs in order to depose a sitting prime minister.
I'm 
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Well if Miliband's all they've got then we are all doomed. He is straight out of the Harman mould of 'our policies work better than yours but you're just not listening'
Totally and utterly incapable of making policy recommendatin clever and politically attractive. Everyone is sick to death of government, local authorites and business slapping on 'green taxes' with no calcualation or explanation of where the money is going.
He's a wlaking disaster zone; I hope they pick him and we can hear more of his inspiring speeches on what 'a dangerous old world' it is out there; thanks, David.
Call a general election.
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If you saw Diane Abbott on 'This Week' last Thursday, you'd have heard her say that her "understanding" was that if Labour lose Glenrothes then the cabinet would move against Brown.
Now Diane may well be a bit of a rebel, but I can't help inferring from that comment that all the dissatisied Labour MPs have been asked to keep quiet and pretend to be united behind Gordon until the election is done with.
As for Milliband, well he doesn't need to do much as we're already talking about him as a replacement.
The blue touchpaper is already alight.
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Based of frequent chats with friends and acquaintances over the past few weeks the general opinion is that Miliband is as electable as Brown and Labour. ie non-electable.
In fact Miliband has been treated as a figure of fun, schoolboy, Mr Bean, etc.
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Milband is jokingly referred to on another blog forum as the millipede. Of far more importance, especially to the Prime Minister at bay, Gordon Brown, is not how many legs this person has to run, but how many faces this many faceted politician actually has!
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Milliband as leader? We're better off with Gordon Brown.
I cannot take Milliband seriously. In his role as Foreign Secretary he hasn't exactly accomplished much. He looks like a graduate trainee.
Perhaps he'd be better employed at the photocopier.
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I really think he has a lot of growing up to do before he even looks old enough to be a politician let alone a prime minister.
I'm afraid times have changed in one fell swoop and young inexperienced career politicians have had their day. Certainly for some time to come.
There are some in the Tory party who should also take note.
What the electorate need desperately are politicians with vast experience of the bad times and what was learned from past mistakes that can be put into practice now. Like it or not what's ahead is going to be very unpleasant for all of us.
Politicians won't be given an easy time just in case they might break down under questioning.
They will be expected to give honest answers to some hard questions.
Certainly a time to sort the men from the boys.
Or women from the girls.
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Nick, how did it compare to Blair's first conference speech as home affairs spokesman back in the 90's? Obviously a different time and person but there must be parallels in how they set out their stall.
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#2 SudaNim
It's a paradoxical situation that Labour in England will only move against Brown if he loses a bye-election in Scotland - the one part of Britain with a wholly different political dynamic, in which the Tories make no gains in the polls, and compete with the LDs for 3rd place.
Any Labour strategy which was more "Old Labour" might gain some votes in Scotland, but would lose even more in England, and going with even more neo-liberal policies in England will lose Scottish votes.
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If Milliband is the best they have got then god help 'em. Is Labour mad?
He's just another elitist political class tax n' spend socialist, constantly describing how his big and very expensive government will generate equality and fairness, but ignoring that Labour have been in power for 11 years and things have gone backwards. Never explaining why it's governments job to create equality and fairness.
Stuff fairness and the egalitarian society, things are so bad now that frankly I'd be happy with my bins being collected every week not bi-weekly!
His policies that he built under Blair have been frankly disastrous. I'm sure he'll make a great leader.......not
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Milipede is not a leader.
His family background is political. His whole adult life has been in politics (he hasn't had what anyone real would call an 'honest job'). He is popular only with other policy wonks within the Westminster bubble. To the public at large he is a vapid nothing.
The Russian Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov, best knows how to speak to this upstart geek - as when he gave him a verbal lashing about Georgia. (Look it up: Lavrov used quite colourful - and very non-diplomatic - language. But very apt).
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So, no actual evidence for any of this, but so what? You do sometimes remind me of one of those people who claim to find earth-shaking coded messages in the Bible. Or the Harry Potter books. Or Enid Blyton. Or anything.
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whilst stressing that what mattered was what Labour would do in the future.
Its the only strategy left; dont look too closely at what weve done, look over there quick theres trouble coming.
Hes not wrong.
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Tony Blair's first conference speech (as Shadow Energy Secretary) was a disaster - he turned over two pages of his script at once, lost his place, fumbled around and got almost no applause from conference at all.
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What the electorate need desperately are politicians with vast experience of the bad times and what was learned from past mistakes that can be put into practice now.
I'm about the same age as millipede. Worryingly I may have the same haircut too. Unlike millipede however I paid attention during the last housing bubble so my plan to deal with this one would have been simple. I would not have allowed it to inflate in the first place. As per this governments 1997 election manifesto.
Security in housing
....
The Conservatives' failure on housing has been twofold. The two thirds of families who own their homes have suffered a massive increase in insecurity over the last decade, with record mortgage arrears, record negative equity and record repossessions. ........
We will reject the boom and bust policies which caused the collapse of the housing market.
The more you read of Labours 1997 manifesto the more you realise just how little they learned in their 18 years of opposition. It's almost as if 1997 was their 'happy place' and they'd like to return us all there except with twice the national debt and three times the personal debt.
Like it or not what's ahead is going to be very unpleasant for all of us.
Of course that is what is so particularly galling. One bunch totally screws up the economy but we all end up having to pay to fix it. If we could just confine the pain to the clowns who voted Labour that would teach them not to do it again. Ever. But no. We're all stuck with this poisoned well economy overseen by a bunch of sixth-form debator-types who have not even a tenuous grip on the truth. The ones that do have a grip on the truth only use it as a frame-of-reference to be avoided while they pitch their onslaught of misinformation and half-truths.
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It has a Groundhog Day feel to it. Same old, same old. The problem is not here within labour it's there outside. Nobody making a move towards unshipping Brown because at 5 to 10% chance of winning the next election NuLabour hasn't bottomed out yet, has to drop further, how low can you go. No sign of anything other than inward looking. However can't hold a wake forever can they. Long way to the next election, something has to give. Wonder how many time we are due to hear Brown is the best Chancellor, even though he is actually a PM in his current job. Alistair Darling is a sort of mirage Chancellor, anything that would normally be down to the Chancellor, Brown claims credit for. Interesting that the most vocal supporters of Brown adopt his outlook and quotes, quite Mao at times, seem to get more Mao as it goes along.
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But lets be honest. This is a win-win for the country. If the boy Milligramme seizes the only chance he'll ever get be to be PM, even if only for 18 months, then Labour will still get exterminated in 2010.
The only up-side is that we won't have to wait till 2010 to see Brown emerging blubbing from number 10 having destroyed this nation for a generation. Perhaps, in a throwback to 1997, we could organise a few thousand spontaneous 'well-wishers' to boo him all the way up the M1 on his way back to Kirkcaldy.
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His repetitons... how to interpret them? Is it 'a rose is a rose is a rose'... or '...are you listening?'?
For a top spokesperson of the party - who are collectively repeating the tantra 'now is not the time for in-fighting' he seemed to spend a long time on the subject himself.
And wasn't Gordon a touch slow in getting to his feet?
Only minor points from me today :)
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A fascinating document has turned up which reveals some sensational news about the Titanic. Apparently, when it was realised that the Captain was off his head - driving the ship at full speed into an icefield, in the dark - he was relieved of his command, and replaced by the chief steward. (The ship still sank).
No, not really; but it's a good analogy for the idea of replacing Gordon Brown with David Millipede.
The point here is Cabinet collective responsibility. If it is assumed that Brown has failed then so, by collective responsibility, have his cabinet colleagues. If Labour were to change their leader, then their only - and incredibly slender - chance would lie in selecting a replacement untainted by collective responsibility. Frank Field, maybe; Michael Meacher, conceivably; Millipede? - no way.
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His mannerisms and the way he spoke just echoed Tony Blair. The long pauses after important points were made, to make sure the audience understood what was being said. Made me feel quite nauseous.
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10 MaxSceptic: "His family background is political. His whole adult life has been in politics (he hasn't had what anyone real would call an 'honest job'). "
So unlike those well known sons of toil Cameron and Osborne, then! (Unless you consider being PR man for the company that produced the immortal Crossroads as being a real (let alone honest) job).
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I believe that anyone could do better than Gordon Brown!
As for the comment above in relation to Milliband being too young to be a Politician never mind a Prime Minister, I believe that this country's Government needs to get in touch with those of us who are the future leaders of the country.
I think that is discrediting younger people to say that Milliband is too young (and lets put this into perspective, Milliband is in his 40's, not his teens) and also I honestly think that this country has had one too many middle aged men as our leader. It's time for a change, perhaps not necessarily a Tory Government but certainly a shake up and a step away from the stereotypical white middle aged public school man, to a person who has experienced the tight money days and has NOT gone into politics for the wrong reasons but has gone into it to make a difference beneficial to ALL not just the middle class!
Also, as a person from Northern Ireland, whose executive has not met in 3 months, I must also express the concern of what a change in Government will do to the delicate situation and the prospect of full devolution of policing and justice powers.
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Think it should be Millibrain, as in no brain-er, or possibly Millibran, something you can choke on every morning at breakfast, sold as being good for you even though you find it difficult to stomach.
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This speech was about as inspiring as Iain Duncan Smith's final speech as leader at the Tory party conference before he was ousted.
God help us!
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I don't expect great things from David Miliband either. There is no point in just changing a leader.
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If Milliband is the answer then one has to ask what was the question?
Oh yes, Gordon Brown is a disaster as Prime Minister so who might replace him if the party allowed anyone to receive nomination papers for the leadership of the Labour party as set out in the Labour consitution?
Lots of hurdles there, I think.
Only a fool in the current Labour Party will want to take over from Mr.Brown. The economy is going to hell on wheels thanks to Mr.Brown, New Labour have wasted 1.3 trillion pounds in eleven years on public service reform to no avail, and they have all been living it up in Westminster at the taxpayers' expense.
No, to want to inherit that disaster suggests to me that either Milliband is not serious or he is barking mad like the previous Prime Minister.
Who knows, as a Blairite, he might emulate his hero and start a war with Russia because they are rude people who swear.
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Frankly, like most of the country I don't give a MIlliband who is the next leader. I just want them out of power and into the history books before they totally wreck this poor nation.
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#8 The time and place of bye elections is not under anybody's control - not even the Labour spin machine can make its MPs immortal.
They don't have a great track record in England either - though for a Scot Nat, I suppose Henley-on-Thames may be "a far away country of which we know little".
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jimbrant @20
Cameron's seven years in the private sector may not have been the most wonderful of examples, but it sure beats zero years hands down.
What life experience can Milipede bring to the table? Are you certain that actually really understands - let alone represents and reflects - the experiences and aspirations of his constituents in South Shields?
At least the likes of Prescott could presumably mix and serve a half-decent gin and tonic. (But, then, on reflection, probably not).
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Groundhog day sums it all up, nothing about this conference would instill confidence in any of the voting public, and I somehow doubt if any of the Labour members of parliament will be changing their plans for employment seeking after the next election. The chancellor is the most unconvincing speaker imaginable; which is probably why he joined the Labour party in the first place rather than attempt to pursue a career as a lawyer. Like Brown, he is now out of his depth.
Milliband on the other hand is the epitome of Cassius, fawning over Caesar and keeping the dagger handy. I can't help thinking that here is a man who would probably have been runner up on the short list for Heinrich Himmler's job. Imagine opening a coffin and finding Milliband grinning up at you; keep the garlic handy ! We also had Tony Woodley screaming for punishment of the " fat cats " of industry, this from probably the fattest cats of all, the big unions who blackmail governments and the taxpayer into filling their pockets. Suddenly he's concerned about the poor and the vulnerable, I don't think.
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It's a little sad that the best hope for Labour is a cosseted kid from a marxist philospher's family, who has never done a proper job in his life.
Funny how a guy with 3 "Bs" and a "D" at A level ended up with a great degree from a great university. (Goodness knows what Gordon Brown would have had to say about his acceptance in the first place, when a girl from a comprehensive, with straight As couldn't make it!!!) Just goes to show how good universities must have been, in his time, to bring out nascent intelligence.
Pity that there are so few people across the parties who have "real-world" experience.
I guess that's why people like Vince Cable (and even Alex Salmond) appear rather more grounded. Not that I'd vote for their parties.
But we send this untested back-room boy abroad to represent the UK. Why? Because Gordon felt the need to "neutralise" him. By PROMOTING him... To a position where his Russian equivalent could hardly bear to listen to him.
For goodness sake, if Balir hadn't the cojones to sack Brown for being a real pain in the posterior, I half hoped that Brown would chuck out some of the Blairite sycophants and get a bit of solidity back into government.
Just look. The possible successors to Brown appear to be Miliband, Balls, Purnell, Smith and Harman.
It's bad enough now.
I just don't understand how Brown saying that he is going to sort out today's problems - while he has been busy creating them for a decade - can swing it for the nation.
I guess you can fool some of the people all of the time. I just hope that will be a minority.
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Echoes of the 1990s are starting to become apparent with the Labour Party.
Steer the country through difficult times, change leader at the correct time (David Miliband in September 2009) and an Opposition whose popularity is based on a government performing badly and not for what they can offer the country.
Does this not remind anyone of the Margaret Thatcher, John Major, Neil Kinnock era of the 1990s when an unpopular Margaret Thatcher was replaced with John Major who went on to defeat a supposedly popular Neil Kinnock Labour Party who got found out for only being popular because the Conservatives were performing badly at the start of the 1990s.
When the difficult times passed the electorate never forgot it was the Conservatives who steered them.
Dejavu anyone?
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Sillyband as party leader?
Never before in the field or British Polotics has such tripe been given such hype
roll on the Election
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Milliband: Remarks on his CV:
1. Never done a proper job.
2. Tainted by association
3. Deep Marxist roots
4. No record of achievement
5. No charisma
6. No credibility
7. Twerp
Totally unsuitable material for job of Prime Minister, but fine for the job of Labour leader, since becoming the latter will safely preclude the former.
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To be frank, I'm not really interested in conjecture surrounding Milliband's future plans.
I'm currently watching the C4 news and am becoming more and more angry at the lack of commitment given to reform by Alistair Darling - he still doesn't seem to get it.
Someone, preferrably Gordon Brown (Alistair Darling seems superfluous), has got to start talking in terms of not what a great system we have but how our system has failed - resulting in the taxpayer underwriting banking losses that were driven by selfish greed on one hand and the consumer being fleeced by energy companies.
But no, it's not happening - the denial continues. Richard Lambert, DG of the CBI, and an ex-MPC member and powerful government lobbyist seems entirely confident that regulation of corporate greed is not on the agenda. Dare I say it, but if you stick lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig!
To me, I don't care what the Conservatives did or would have done - it's academic. The present government needs to start be honest with itself.
Whilst I have no desire to live in the States, at least Congress is able to scrutinise what the government are doing. UK parliament in that respect is sadly impotent to challenge 'pork barrel' politics.
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Nick - I found the moan about you being like the type that finding codes in the bible funny - Why don't you rename yourself - The Blog of Revelations.
(You have to report something even if there is nothing new coming out of the mouths of NuLabour, must be challenging. You would think a party with a current 5 to 10% chance at the next election would have something new they could say, even if it was lets jump out of windows.)
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His speech to the Fabian Society was mind numbingly dull too.
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"none of the buzz, none of the electricity, none of the raw anticipation..."
That seems to be labour all round of late and if truth be told, the Conservatives.
Listening to Milliband is akin to listening to Blair a decade back, or even Cameron.
Britain does not need another career politician. We require a leader who has some grounding in "real life" - not the rarified atmosphere of priviledge and politics.
Unfortunately the level headed leaders we require are rarely involved directly in politics.
I'm alarmed at my current thoughts that I may just vote Lib Dem, as I don't like the other two devils, even though I know them... I suspect I'm hardly alone in this.
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29
Careful with the Himmler remarks. Miliband - Jewish roots.
Expect a knock at the door - soon!!!!
1984 and all that.
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It would be far less a waste of taxpayer's money if BBC journalists REPORTED the labour party conference, instead of speculating about leadership contests which are yet to happen.
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Nick
Realise it's a quiet night and there's no football on telly but what exactly did Miliband say which leads to your conclusion "I'm here if you want me to lead you" He's a high ranking member of the government. Should he have said he never wants to lead his party come hell or high water? The Tory press could then have worked itself into a lather over "Foreign Secretary has no ambition - election must be called"
This is conjecture and rumour feeding off itself to justify the employment of political commentators at license-payers' expense on a slow day. Sometimes you may ask yourself why it is that politicians of all parties nowadays talk as though they have been programmed. A missed comma, a different inflection and certainly anything extemporaneous is grasped by the media and political opponents as evidence of an impending coup. Get a grip.
Our esteemed Foreign Secretary must be gratified, however, to see that the conservative cheerleaders on these pages are wallowing in "amending" his name to variations - millipede, miligram, minibrain etc etc as nauseum - which may once have been mildly funny but are now pretty boring (the old codger who writes a column for the Daily Express ran them all out months ago) . Gentlemen - I may be even tempted to vote for your party one day. Am I to believe that it is still dominated by a public-schoolboy culture which makes up for threadbare arguments by resorting to self-indulgent name-calling ? It could be a slippery slope to unspeakable things behind the bike sheds.. And remember, there's a man called Balls coming up shortly. Reclaim your dignity fast, gents.
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*Apostrophe missing, penultimate paragraph, first line.
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Miliband bangs on about beating the Conservatives.......
......... a very inward looking speech...........
....shouldn't he instead by trying to communicate to the electorate and saying 'this what we are going to do for the country'?
This attitude just shows Labour are only interested about being in power for powers sake. Well clinging onto power anyway.
Academic really - the public want Labour driven from office.
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Post 18
Titanic nice.
Captain Pugwash is the image I have with NuLabour. Sailing on the Sea of Debt. Assisted by Master Bates the Cabin Boy and One Eyed Jack with the telescope to the blind eye. Oh Arggh. Watch out we're heading for another Bank. Passengers will complain if we have to pass the hat around, only just got over having to help when the Black Pig hit the Northern Rock. You just can't get the right sort of passengers these days. Moan moan moan. Complaining there are too many stowaways in the SouthEast part of the Black Pig. Said it was going to be too cold in the winter and then moaned when we had a whip around for loft insulation, it not the captains fault some will wait for 10 years for it to be put in. Captain Pugwash has lashed himself to the wheel again, never been the same since the last Captain started talking to god. Hey watch out theres another Bank, the passangers had better get bailing out again.
Better put another message in a bottle and throw into the Channel of Moderation. Send gold, paper money no good. Captain Pugwash still heading for Fantasy Island. Help
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Nick,
I wish I didn't have to say this but the situation is actually, well, not to put too fine a point on it, BORING. Yes, I'm actually bored, by this rubbish. Get a grip, get it sorted, but most of all get jaw jaw Gordon out.
I'm off to revise for a philosophy exam. Shows how bored I am.
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Post 31
I find the similarity striking. Both governments have used house market manipulation - even if it has been via non intervention when intervention was needed - to buy off an electorate with a hook into massive personal debt and the illusion of wealth. Both crashed financially due to external international financial pressure. Both triggered recessions with widescale but indiscrimiate and arbitary private sector collapse. Both leaders at the start of the regimes sounded rational, both ended up thinking they could talk to god. Both liked hands off free markets. Major was a caretaker, Brown is a undertaker. Both Thatcher and Blair loved the USA. Wars deflected the public away from economic problems for both. Could be Brown will be as memorable as Major historically.
Methinks avoiding another ride around the loop is best avoided, no Thatcher Blair morphs need apply.
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Despite all the media speculation, Brown isn't going anywhere. None of the Labour MPs had the courage to stand against Brown for election as party leader, so it's doubtful any will have the courage to challenge him now.
The mood at the conference today amongst rank and file delegates was that the party should stop squabbling. It's unlikely that any challenger would have much support.
As for the country at large, whatever labour do or don't do, they are now doomed. It's far too late to pull out of this nose-dive. It's easy to put on the blame on Brown, but the real problem is that ordinary voters are fed up with Labour's failed policies: the money wasting, high taxes, high borrowing, nanny state, surveillance Britain, ID cards, HIPs, broken promise on referendum, democratic deficit for England compared with Scotland, denial of life saving drugs, fortnightly rubbish collections etc etc
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Have peoples opened minds been closed by their impertinent belief, that only the wealthy can steer the wheel of economics.
We have come along way since the 1980's
why would anyone, want a return to 15%
interests rates, high unemployment, failing schools, underfunded hospitals,shocking poverty levels.
The spoon fed minority, have spat the dummy, they want their feed of conservative tripe..cuts...cuts and more cuts they scream.
Shrinking imperial conservatives, little by nature...little by policies..little by little they fade away.
Cameron..new face..same old agenda..
by the way..how many privately educated toffs pay for their certificates of education?
You couldn't make this up....the tories...when faced with a new world...cry foul and inverse to the thatcherite mode.
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Hmm.
So if you aren't happy with NuLabour and have some light relief laffing at Miliband you must be a Tory, or Lib Dem, or some other affiliation. Dream on. And Balls is funny he is hilarious the way he smiles as soon as he realises the camera is on him, like somebody has pulled his string. Me I'm disappointed with NuLabour, sold me a pup and it turn into a bear. A default Cameron is not enticing. Many people will be casting around for something in the next election, could be dangerous.
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The test of a true (potential) leader is the ability of others to parody his mannerism and expressions.
John Major was easy, dull and grey. Tony Blair was nearly the Cheshire cat, all teeth but no smile and Gordon Brown is pure sulk and bitten nails.
David Miliband is a bit of a problem. I have yet to master the art of talking whilst having my eye browns move about independently of the laws of physics..!
RADA or wot?
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Nick Robinson's blog gets worse and worse.
Conjecture and bereft of meaningful facts.
How many more times will he attempt to manufacture a story that really isn't there?
Because of the people who contribute here, a few of whom I vehemently disagree with, I return and take part. The quality of writing, opinions voiced and eloquence of many, even the facetious ones, me included, are twice as good as paid employee Robinson.
I write articles for magazines myself and I think I can spot a dud some way off. To be honest, thank heavens for Robert Peston. He might be in the spotlight presently for his expose last week of the Lloyds/HBOS merger, but his words are considered, based on fact and worth reading.
Just my personal opinion, but in Nick Robinson's haste to publish something, anything, to fill his blog, frequently the quality diminishes. Why not leave it a day or two before filing, rather than publish something somewhat tenuous?
Nine out of ten times contributions from regulars go miles off tangent, Robinson could kick off with the colour of Harmans knickers and the thing would take on a life of it's own, which, for me is the beauty of this blog.
Am I a lone voice? If so, tell me and I'll shut up!! Cheers everyone, you included Grandantidote, CEH, derekbarker, dhwilkinson and all your chums in the red corner I'll never agree with but whose words are always eagerly awaited. Bizarre!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
His speech might work wonders for the flock I for one thought 'Oh aye it's show time', it's action and not words I wanna see.... and no dithering!
I bet he didn't write the speech himself and that it had to be censored... just another load of hot wind as usual all this preachin' and very little action.
What gets me is why on earth ministers spend all their time and energy telling us this and that when they should be getting the job done...
... also bet they only just thought of doing this n' that, what sort of ministers are they?
Not good enough, we want a government thats good at governing not darn lecturing and self confessions.
Pure show and nothing more.
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It is quite pitiful.
Thay all want to be Obama, well, the younger ones like this Milliband anyhow.
And the elders such as Brown just want to stand next to Obama and hope that some of the 'magic' rubs off.
To ordinary folks, I suspect these Party Conferences seem to resemble a strange kind mixture of zoo/big Brother event.
The politicians sweat and sweat and sweat over their speeches which are desparately, desparately important to those who must 'perform'.
What a strange netherworld these politicians inhabit, with their whispered asides in dark corners as they plot and scheme to do down some big beast of the political jungle.
Soon it is all over and they depart the conference ... in this case, to prepare for electoral oblivion in 2010, no matter who their leader is.
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milli's vanilli
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Irrespective of who might be the next leader of the Labour party - or the country, for that matter, though I hope the two jobs will not be coterminous for too much longer -one thing has become abundantly clear: sooner or later, our taxes are going to go through the roof to pay for this mess.
Can anybody suggest even one good argument against leaving before the tax bill arrives?
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the problem with the leadership debate is it's Labour who people want rid of, changing the leader whilst not calling an election would be a foul move reminiscent of a one party state - it's arrogance that labour think they have a right to rule the country, if they showed some integrity and bowed to the people they might get some more respect from me - but then i don't matter because i live in the south
it's a pity the tories have to win by default, some etonian toffs without any policies, except 'hide and wait til the election'
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Post 50 asks - Am I lone voice.
Course you are, didn't you realise, we are all lone voices. Opinion is pointless for 18 months and may not matter then, depends where you live. The economic deed is done and most, but not all, will pay, a minority dearly. In the same way that somebody else always has a minor operation and the one you have yourself is always major, the impact of this government will depend on how it hits you. Some may well remain wealthy and thankful. It is remarkable how concerns about policy are taken as a demand to return to another era. In the meantime numb your brain because the lunatics are running the asylum and if you shout too loud you can disturb those who are already disturbed, or those who do not approve of laughter, or those who wish to remain in their illusion. Nothing is said here that far cleverer people havent been saying for a long time. Try some 60s Bob Dylan.
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47:
This thread is concerned with the question of who might be Labour's next leader and not the perceived shortcomings of David Cameron. If you can't stick to the subject please don't bother to contribute because we're not interested!
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# 56
That is not a problem for English people because we 'need' the Tories to fill the boots by default.
That should then be enough to tip the Scottish electorate into voting for full independence in November 2010.
Which also sets us English free.
Then we English can sort out 'Dave' and his motley crew.
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# 56 tarquin
You are right about not mattering because you live in the South. It's clear that this Scottish dominated government has bestowed no end of "gifts" on those living north of the border, including their own parliament. However, Labour's attempt to bribe the Scottish voters has backfired spectacularly. Having opened this constitutional can of worms, if Scotland eventually opts for full independence, Labour will find it difficult to win another election down South.
The Labour party is out of ideas, out of steam and out of time.
Looking at the Labour Party Conference, it has the appearance of Scrapheap Challenge.
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Nick,
so America is going to sort out its problems then is it?
I would not want to be the victor in the presidential elections if you paid me. They will be taking over such a disaster.
As it looks like an Obama victory then the Republicans will want to hand over a complete mess.
As for Team GB I mean it will be brilliant if our Gordon does pull something out of the hat and wins. Exactly how long do you think it would last before the country implodes. We may even have a repeat of the 60s where there were governments with very small majorities, just what you need during what many are now agreeing with me will be a repeat of the Great Depression.
I must find out where the revolution is going so that I can lead it :-)
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Nick doesn't illuminate policy or practice, but any conference has business to get through and can't afford to have everyone step beyond their allotted time. However, some leeway is often built in for star performers. Miliband was clearly on a roll so it's not unusual for him to use up more time. There's books on this. I suggest people read them.
I've been generally impressed with the quality of Miliband?s thinking. Indeed, the last essay he delivered that caused a storm in the press is exactly what I asked for in this blog only the day before. I'm not especially interested in conference speeches nor a Labour party member but the gist of his speech sounded about right.
Many organisations have a more sober CEO who gets on with business while a star performer helps focus and motivate staff and customers. Does anyone ask whether Nick Robinson wants to be Director General of the BBC? Of course, I can't prove anything but I have a gut feeling Nick has ambitions beyond being political editor.
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60:
Great post. It was interesting, in the HBOS situation, to contrast the apparent importance of saving jobs in Edinburgh with the complete indifference to what might happen to employees in Halifax. I think that Labour might pay a high electoral price for that in northern England.
I must say, though, that I've a tiny bit more sympathy for Brown, etc, today than I've had for some time. Reason is this: I watched the Labour conference for the first time in years, and was shocked at quite what a bunch of morons the leadership has to answer to.
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Through the grape vine....
Carol thatcher....might be the tories next leader......
"Thats Right" from the jungle...to the jungle.
Ape that in your diary......(what a thought)
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#34 has it right... miliband is not important, its all waffle and style from him
todays big speech was darlings.
i have to ask (as others are starting to ask) at the end of august, darling announced "we face the worst financial problems in 60 years!"
3 weeks before the market bust and bounced around all over the place.... what did he know that us normals didnt?
was it a simple way to forwarn us all so he could say "i told you so!" or was it something more devious?
i would like to see how much money was donated to the labour party between the date of his announcement and the date of the crash...
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The deviation from the thread occurring is probably because the subject is not able to be discussed in an sensible way when there is such a lack of obvious candiates that will apeal to the voters, which I presume is what is wanted by the Labour party, although at times you do wonder.
It does not help when the public reaction is that Labour is a lost cause - and Labour, whilst showing signs of disunity growing, do not appear to show any sign of engaging in seriously tackling the issue.
If Labour are fundimentally unatractive, as somebody has already pointed out, it becomes a bit irrelevant who leads them. In that sense the thread becomes irrelevant.
The biggest problem Labour have is they are all tarred by being on watch when this mess happened, and very few would appear to believe the problems elsewhere story.
Miliband is apparently the luvvy of the party but he has already slyly floated his proposal and the public did not bite. He meantime is heseltining his hair. He didnt get a great resonse at conference. Prescot biffs people. Too many of the rebels are wildcards with unsound policy or too inexperienced. That is why the subject is deadbeat. Its a struggle.
Brown and his gang have very cleverly painted themselves into the corner. They cannot easily state a new direction without admiting the problems are home grown. For a political party there do not appear many politicians in it.
Getting the message across and connecting with the voter worked in the 90s, you don't have to be a genius to see the lack of that attribute. Part of the problem is that they left all of that stuff to Blair and he has gone and nobody has tried to develope the skill. It is not a question of personailty led politics, it is a basic need to communicate.
Perhaps Blair and Brown suffocated others developing or Labour just is inexperienced in dealing with real problems rather than concetrating on a surveilence society and imaginary global influence.
Its a vegative state and switch off looks the likely outcome. Same probably for the thread although is may wander on a bit, just like Labour.
It is complacent to guess Cameron is automatically in. He maybe, maybe not. Lib Dem or BNP could blossom or others. Could be a hung parliment. Could be dangerous.
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I've just read Robert X Cringely's latest comment on IT management. I can relate to a lot of what he says in his Door Number Three essay. Folks like Gordon Brown are often star performers but find the traditional hiearchies and peer groups to be a royal pain in the ass. He's a great leader and, I figure, the only reason Nick and a few other folks are taking advantage is cuz they're jealous.
It's pretty fair to say I forsaw every major games design development over the past few years. The bitch is I didn't get my head around the implementation and it ended up biting me in the ass. It's cost me so much it's embarassing to think about it, and I see Gordon screwing up in a similar way unless he focuses on the much more everyday practical and communication issues.
The issue of international financial policy is great but getting caught up in that is just going to take Labour's eye off the ball. Miliband is a good frontman for advocating a better approach, but Labour MPs must focus, focus, focus on helping folks get stuff done and feeling like someone gives a shit. It sounds cliche but they will succeed if they help the people succeed.
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Hello Charles-E-Hardwidge!
I find your blog's
A reflection of inner control,
beaming the light, to others
A sense of purpose and knowledge
and the calm hand shall still the storm.
pray to continue.............speaking words of wisdom.
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This is the most fantastic media invention yet! Milliband supports Brown and the Labour Party but the ITV and BBC political teams know better! Despite the evidence of our ears and eyes, they tell us that this is a manifestation of a leadership bid! Nick, your arrogance has reached new levels - do you really believe that we are so stupid that we can't interpret what we view? The media are now inventing the news and the BBC political team are soaring ahead in the 'art' of replacing reportage with editorialism. When your team can't exult over a real gaffe, they invent one. The pretense is journalism, the intent is a lie!
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While someone's mentioning it, what happened to Brother Love's Travelling Salvation Show? Did "Dave" bottle out or lack the stamina, or what? Maybe it's cuz he thought dad dancing his way to the general election was a vote loser. Damn, and I was so looking forward to having a chance to shred Cameron. Ya, know - teaching the Bullingdon Bully that it takes more than mouth to be hard. Him and that Osborn fella need to learn there's more to life than book learning and smoking cigars with their pals. Might do the critters some good.
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Labour's next leader? I caught Miliband's finger wagging speech and felt like I was being lectured to by an eager tutor who was talking about one subject while meaning a nother. The listeners soon lost interest in what he was actually saying as they wandered about, chatted to one another, and dutifully clapped in the right places.
This is modern politics. No-one except the media was expecting Miliband to put his head above the parapit, especially during conference season.
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glanafon:
I agree entirely with you that numerous Labour hardliners on here are running scared of this topic thread. Much like the many poor rank and file contributors in my opinion to The Labour Party Conference they can't resist having a pop at The Tories (a derogatory term for Conservatives) instead of addressing the real issues that concern everyone. derekbarker even has a pop at Carol Thatcher who for his information is widely respected by her peers for her wit, intelligence and personality. She has had numerous slots on LBC radio and TV discussion programmes and is also liked by the Public. CEH must be cringing at his support for him. Speaking of CEH he makes some good points in his last paragraph of 67 but then goes and spoils it all by referring to DC as a Bullingdon Bully smoking cigars with his fellow critters. He should follow his own advice when he advises the likes of grandantidote to stop hurling abuse. It merely provides ammunition for his critics to come back at him with interest. Nor has it anything to do with the question of Labour's next leader.
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I've just been reading an article that made use of the term 'putsch' I introduced to this discussion some time ago. Plus, given that less than 1% of my comment has issues suggests I'm hardly "running scared". Being a nobody outnumbered by 100:1 and getting results like that is pretty good by anyone's standard.
Maybe it's a coincidence that I suggest a perspective with Dear Leader but my personal agenda is focused on writing better stuff and being less distracted by some of the jazz around here. I'm also toying with the idea of taking some more time out. Heck, it's not like I have to post, and I'm not getting paid for it.
Two things I've learned the hard way is you have to stay level and polish off the rough edges, so your feedback is correct in absolute terms even if it's a bit unfair. Anyone who's serious about setting a gold standard should take stuff like this seriously. In the final analysis it's what seperates the wheat from the chaff.
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Has anyone watched the following clip of floating voters in nManchester.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/7624470.stm
Its really interesting. Ordinary people comparing the leaders.
I leave you to make your own judgement, but would like to see comments on this board.
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Isn't the phrase "Those Tories 'are' beatable!" seem more appropriate if they come from someone who thinks they've already lost?
Has dave resigned himself to a future in the wilderness or is this an open but subtle critique of Mr Browns performance.
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I think we're all expecting a bullish speech from Gordon Brown today with no hint of humility or regret over any of his policy decisions over the past 10 years aside from the 10p tax gaffe. That will be sure to please the faithful members in the artificial bubble of The Conference Hall but will do little to assuage the concerns of ordinary people struggling to make ends meet all over the UK. Last night's Dispatches programme was a sad reminder of what a lot of of people from ordinary families to pensioners and bust bank employees are going through right now.
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It is not about Milliband. It is not about world prices. It is about Gordon Brown. He has not, at a personal and at a leadership level, cut the mustard in terms of respect as PM.
He is indecisive, uninspiring, unable to carry the people or his party with him.
So Labour, don't insult our inteligence by saying he is the man to take us forward - we simply are unable, because of the evidence of our own eyes, to believe it.
Our view is compounded by the reaslisation now that his reputation as Chancellor is now greatly tarnished; we knew he had stealth taxed us, we did not know he had left the cupboard bare for a rainy day.
Time to go,
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Brown's speech today will be like this.
Talk of so called past achievements,
Tory bashing,
Credit crunch, difficult times,
Getting on with the job,
false promises,
Tory bashing,
Canned Applause.
But in reality all mouth and no trousers, nothing will change.
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#47 Derekbarber
the only people with 'silver spoons' these days are the millions of people on incapacity benefits; the millions on the dole; the millions of single mothers on state benefits and the one million extra public sector workers with defined benefit pension schemes subsidised by those paying taxes in the private sector.
it says a great deal that that all newlabour have to offer is this ancient language of class warfare for it forebodes hat newlabour support is dwindling back to its trade union roots.
the bleating at yesterdays conference to tax the rich, for windfall taxes on energy companies are just another hark back to these roots. How, pray, do newlabour to propose to pay for the billions it will cost to upgrade and rebuild our power stations if they levy a windfall tax on the energy companies?
Upside down thinking from upside down politicans who have nowhere to turn for another injection of someone else's money.
Newlabour are beginning to look like abunch of tragic addicts with one side calling for cold turkey and the other for just one more fix of cash.
it would be funny if they weren't the government.
Call an election.
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This thread sums up all that is wrong with the British Electorate at the moment.
Hurt by the global whirlwind that surrounds us you lash out for someone to blame.
The man in charge rightly puts himself in the firing line, says he could have done better and proposes some carefully thought out policies to address deficencies in financial regulation.
What does the British public do, whinge because he doesnt have a quick fix solution. We are supposed to be adults we are supposed to realise that the world doesnt work like that.
Noone else is suggesting anything that would work any better mind you. David Cameron just carps from the sidelines like a demented irish leprachaun saying "I wouldnt have started from here". The root cause of the issue however is the American policy of irresponsible lending to deadbeat american hicks, nothing Gordon Brown could have done to alter that fact.
Come to pre-budget report we have clear indications that public spending will be maintained with target fiscal stimulus to support the economy, increasing endebtedness in the short term to promote growth and prosperity. In said of welcoming this like they did when the liberal democrats proposed a similar sensible approach, all the public can do is carp on about the golden rule.
It is about time we as a nation grew up collectively realised we need to take personal responsibility for our personal finances and realise we live in a globalised world in which commodities and energy resources are in scarce supply. We have been living beyond our means both personally and collectively, all the government can hope to do is cushion the transition into the new world order.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
78 WTF
Correct. Brown has only one direction (the wrong one) and one speed (slow).
All is lost. And I think Miliband has made a big mistake with his "Heseltine moment" comment.
Hope to make friends and influence people!!!
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Charles_E_Hogwash @67 wrote:
"It's pretty fair to say I forsaw every major games design development over the past few years.'
And you can, of course, refer us to independent authorities who can back up such a claim.
(And you probably invented the internet too while you were at it. Or are you sharing that glory with Al Gore?).
I see that you have the fulsome support of Derek Barking @68. That must be reassuring.
Or perhaps not.
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# 79 Alf Garnet
Your excellent outbursts hark back to a bygone era. Redolent with prejudice and misguided fury ... but funny too, if read in a generous spirit, so I'm fine for you to carry on if you want to.
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80 sotonblogger
I think you are completely wrong.
The problem for Brown has been the drip[, drip, drip over the past ELEVEN years, as highlighted by hundreds of posts giving lists of Brown "initiatives" that are now seen to be upsetting the voting public. Stealth taxes are just one area where people are now regretting having him as Chancellor.
Have a look at this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/7624470.stm
to understand the public feeling.
Add to this that Brown is an unlikeable person, no charisma whatsover, and is seen as a loner who needs to control everything, and I think you may understand the reason why Brown and his government are so unpopular.
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#79
Robin, a rolling programme, that delivers the best for all of the nation, is not a static stone.
Only labour can deliver on the NHS, transport, education, employment, housing, business.
A future Britain, where the whole of society has a part to play, yes, Robin, energy tamed, then expanded by labour.
I.T. not just for the rich, labour will deliver to advance the whole nation.
Robin, close the book of old habits and support this nation as it looks to the future
labour...labour...labour..we are building this future for you and me and all of our citizens,
come on board and stop looking back.
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Does anyone agree with me that Gordo is starting to look like Richard Nixon just before he resigned?
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#83
Max, that was a hole lot of nothing,
perhaps your septic tank is half empty...
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88 DB
Did you mean sceptic?
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# 80 Soton
Not how this blog works, I'm afraid.
What happens is Nick Robinson writes a little piece and then a whole load of small minded reactionaries (a type you may have thought had disappeared at about the same time as the Bay City Rollers) start talking to themselves about the evils of the modern world. Country's going to the dogs, everyone who isn't a single mother works for a quango, that sort of thing ...
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#89
No....sceptic... thats the tories on the EU
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#86
I cannot bring myself to vote for a party that did not propose a single power station, motorway, road, airport or train station in eleven years in power.
Look at what has taken place in Europe during this time.
Newlabour wasted eleven years of oil revenues on fruitless initiatives and quangos.
I will not vote for a government that gives people more money for working fewer hours as the did to GPs and consultants; this shows a crass misunderstanding of the simplest economics.
There is no book of old or new habits there is only the way forward without this hectoring, spying, taxing, interfering and incompetent government.
'energy tamed, then expanded by labour' ...just words Derek. Just words with neither the manner nor method of implementation.
All newlabour policy is hyperbole - and intellectual snobbery. Ideology doesn't work. Idealogy has given us a ruinous culture of entitlement in children and youth culture when the reality is none of us are entitled to anyhing except the spark of life with which we are born.
As for looking back; I can't stop looking back at the eleven years newlabour have wasted when they could have been investing in this country's future instead of handing out cash to every minority interest group they could find.
newlabour will disappear off the map at the next election and I will not be sorry to see their ideological dogma go with it.
the future's bright; the future without newlabour.
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"Brown will pledge to help 1.4 million children get access to the internet at home by giving poorer families vouchers worth £700."
Throwing money at "poorer families" yet again. Why can't the little dears use the public library for their internet usage, or even the books contained therein?
Broadband/dial-up is dirt cheap these days and practically any old computer is powerful enough to surf the internet, so if the underclass want to harness the global information repository that is the internet shouldn't they be doing that already to improve their chances in life?
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#87
yes, he looks exactly like Ricahrd Nixon... and I suspect we're about to have a similar scandal. 'There'll be no climbing down, in climb-Downing street'
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# 77 Jon
Only reason for the "stealth taxes" is because the public wanted the higher spending but couldn't stomach a straightforward rise in the headline rates. A shame but that's the public for you. It's not ideal but they have to be treated like children sometimes ... check out the sort of stuff that gets posted here and you'll see why that's the case.
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# 87 Mike
Yes, Nixon, very much so. Although he seems a bit better now, I think because he feels he is going to pull through. I don't think he is though. I see him having to step down by Christmas.
Labour, with a new leader, have a glimmer of a chance to turn things around if they get back to being a party of the progressive Left.
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# 94 Robin
"no climb down in climbdowning street"
That's a good joke. It's original and quite sweet. I really like it.
Why not ditch the usual ill informed, poisonous ranting in favour of more stuff like that?
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#92
Robin, there is strength in unity, there is purpose in progress.
Robin, change for change sake is not a real answer.
Robin, I'm sure you dont really think that performance related pay is good example of progression.
Robin, what political party, do you think can address your concerns.
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Robin, a rolling programme, that delivers the best for all of the nation, is not a static stone.
Only labour can deliver on the NHS, transport, education, employment, housing, business.
Bwahahahahahaha.
Comical Ali lives.
Our warriors are crushing the American forces. The crows feast on the bodies of the imperialist yankee agressors. Labour is delivering a rolling programme....housing bwahahahahah.
Ha.
Ha.
Ha.
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Nick,
Can you confirm whether Gordon is about to provide, not only the PC and broadband access to poorer families, but also the necessary internet security software to prevent them from ID fraud, etc?
Personally, I believe the proposal is far more about monitoring the poor who currently sit outside the all encompassing electronic web that the rest of us are exposed to each and every day.
All the best
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The term stealth tax is both insulting to the british public and plain wrong.
There is nothing stealthy about the taxes brought in by labour, they are however indirect.
Are the bloggers here really claiming the great british public are so stupid as to not understand the difference between taxes on consumption and taxes on income, both are taxes although they affect behaviour differently.
The government of the day sets the balance between these two revenue streams and they set it out in the open in the full glare of proper scrutiny from the opposition parties and the media, nothing stealthy involved at all.
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I've just been reading an article that made use of the term 'putsch' I introduced to this discussion some time ago. Plus, given that less than 1% of my comment has issues suggests I'm hardly "running scared". Being a nobody outnumbered by 100:1 and getting results like that is pretty good by anyone's standard.
I think you must have cross-posted this in error. It doesn't appear to relate to anything here. Actually, it doesn't appear to relate to anything.
Enough of your self-referential moonshine. Get back to the proper job of reminding this government how universally loathed they are and the contempt in which they are held by anybody with an IQ greater than plankton.
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93 re computers.
So what will happen when computers are bought for children in poor families.
The parents will probably sell them to put food on the table, petrol in the car, or even worse, on drink, drugs and cigarettes!!
More money down the drain.
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Only reason for the "stealth taxes" is because the public wanted the higher spending but couldn't stomach a straightforward rise in the headline rates. A shame but that's the public for you. It's not ideal but they have to be treated like children sometimes .
Oh they've been treated like children all right. They've been given the adult equivalent of Father Christmas and the tooth fairy for the past 11 years.
'No more boom and bust', 'Education, education and education', '24 hours to save the NHS'. Meanwhile they've been looting our children to buy votes from their increasing client state.
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Yes, Nixon, very much so. Although he seems a bit better now, I think because he feels he is going to pull through. I don't think he is though. I see him having to step down by Christmas.
Oh goody. Cameras in the face, blubbing about 'doing more', 'history will judge'. Blah blah.
I think we need to start planning now for the cordon of voters to line the motorway and jeer him all the way up back to Kirkcaldy. Or Heathrow. We wouldn't want him to get the impression that there was anybody in the UK who thought he'd done a good job.
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#97
poisonous ranting?
When are newlabour apologists going to actually say what their policies are and argue the case for remainng in power, rather than accusing enyone who holds them to account of 'poisonous ranting'
if more people had been held to account in the past eleven years there would be less mess to clear up. Gordon Brown and his reckless spedning; the energy reviews that never delivered a power station; ID cards; the 10p tax debacle; the Iraq war; the over expansion of PFI and it's farcical uses building local court houses; the destruction of the private sector pension system; the isposal of our gold at rock bottom prices.
None of this is 'poisonous ranting' it's holding to account a government that runs away form responsibility for its own actions.
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#98
you're turning into CEH. More hyperbole. This isn't government, it's just words.
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101 soton
"Are the bloggers here really claiming the great British public are so stupid as to not understand the difference between taxes on consumption and taxes on income,"
Yes. But what they do understand is the Labour Manifest committment not to raise taxes - direct or indirect.
You can bluster all you like, but one thing is completely certain. Labour have already lost the next election, not to the Conservatives but to a loathing of Brown and how he has taken this Country downhill.
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So what will happen when computers are bought for children in poor families.
Gordon Brown will use it ad nauseum for another soundbite.
'We have provided computers for the one million poorest households in the country.'
The usual clapping monkeys will rise to their feet to hail this great blow against poverty. How can they be 'poor' we've given them computers? Plus, at mass purchase price it's probably only a couple of hundred quid a PC. Small beer when your budget deficit is 100bn. PLUS it's a one-off. You give them 200 quid towards their heating this year and they'll have their hand out next year. You give 'em a computer and that's your lot.
He might as well declare that he has sent the poorest one million families a library card. It'd be a lot cheaper and they wouldn't be so likely to spend their days down-loading/up-loading porn.
It's all about the soundbite. The computers will be 200 quid each but the quango created to administer giving them away will add 500 quid extra to the each PC.
It's the Labour way.
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Poor Gordon - he's just got shot of BlairI and now he's got BlairII breathing down his neck.
What worries me is, how many of these Blair clones are there? Is there a lab somewhere turning out genetically-engineered killer-Bambis?
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When the great leader, not, speaks at the conference this afternoon I sincerely hope that he speaks, not only as leader of the labour party, but more importantly as the Prime Minister.
It was he that went along with the illegal war against Iraq, he should have resigned if he didn't agree with it. Furthermore, as Chancellor he has paid for it.
It is he who is supporting the Americans in Afghanistan, are our troops not operating in tandem with the Americans.
He is supporting the attacks on Pakistan, he should say no incursions.
He did not criticise Turkey for their actions in northern Iraq, he should have said no, instead no comment.
Where are we exactly on Russia and Georgia. What is he going to do.
When will the troops be withdrawn from Iraq, when they are withdrawn they must not be sent to Afghanistan.
How can we continue to afford these wars, we are going bankrupt, yet why spend money on these wars which are getting us nowhere.
What a load of non-sense with regard to free computers for children, free theatre tickets, what about the elderly. Oh, we are the past, the children are the future.
Yes, the economy, the Chancellor who got us into this mess. The man who really could have done something but actually did nothing.
The man was never elected, as against what Jack Straw was saying, he was not elected and the BBC should not let them get away with rewriting history.
Finally, nice that old boy Paxman picked up on the Shakespeare thread which you were running last week. Where we lead Newsnight follows.
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101. At 10:05am on 23 Sep 2008, SotonBlogger wrote:
Average person does understand maths, then how do you expect people to understand tax. If its direct its easy as it shows on your payroll.
Stealth tax for e.g. take ACT (hope you understand it) by abolishing it he reduced the value of pension. These are the reason its called stealth tax as you want even have a clue how much it cost you. Even environmental taxes are the same, you end up some how paying for it without knowing he is taking it out your pocket.
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These are serious times which deserve serious thought. But, we are burdened with such clowns in Nu Labour, that it is impossible to see a way out of our problems as long as they remain. The only thing to do is keep one's head down and pray that these times will pass. In the meantime, I have created a new musical. Hazel Blears will be Sally Bowles in this latter day "Cabaret" and auditions are now oncoming for the rest of the cast. One role has already been filled, the compere, who turns from clown into a sinister death's head. Who else, but the irresistable David Miliband!
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poisonous ranting?
We have had eleven years of Labour and their apologists spitting in our face and blaming it on rain. If you think this is poisonous ranting you wouldn't want to hear what people really think outside of a moderated site.
When are newlabour apologists going to actually say what their policies are
We all know what their policies are. Borrow and squander as much money as they can lay their hands on. Pump up a massive housing bubble and surf that 'feel-good' factor right up to the beach with borrowed cash and then blame the yanks for pulling the plug on even more borrowed cash.
That's their plan. That's what they've done and apparently, having done all that, now is the 'right time' to borrow even more.
They are going to borrow and squander us into financial oblivion. They're most of the way there but another two years should really nail the lid on us all.
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Another day and another bank goes under... today Bradford and Bingley collapsing -15% to record low.
So where are all those naughty hedge funds who were short selling? Ooops.. this is not short selling, it's actual selling.
Just as well Uncle Alistair promised yesterday to search out and eliminate all those nasty bonuses in the city. How undeserving are they?
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I have got the Layabout Party Conference on in the background. Hilarious. Butter than most comedy programmes on TV.
Everyone is called Chris!!!!
can't wait for Gordon "Nixon" Brown's speech later today. Should be a hoot.
Also looking forward to Nick's piece so we can tear it to shreds.
Life is so exciting. Wish I was young and poor so that I could get a new computer.
Come to think of it, 50 years ago we were.
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Its not about Brown the man, but Labour the policies. The silent majority were happy to go along for the ride whilst the economy was booming and money was cheap. Now things are tighter and they see how much they've been fleeced and how hard it is to live in the Nu Labour world they have had enough.
Anyone that comes in with a reasonable set of policies that includes relieving the crushing tax burden will get the next election. Labour would have to make a start now though, because the public aren't going to trust promises.
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#80 SotonBlogger. Your comments are as patronising as they are wrong, especially your depiction of the electorate thrashing about mindlessly looking for a quick fix and someone to blame for the global credit crunch.
Instead, the vast majority of people appreciate that there?s a global problem, and that economies go through cycles of growth and recession - a point not appreciate by Mr ?Genius? Brown who stated, not once but many times, the end of boom and bust. Got that wrong didn?t he?
The electorate also appreciate that this country's problem has been made worse by Brown?s tenure as Chancellor. Our country is mortgaged to the hilt thanks to Brown?s off balance sheet activity known as PFI. So rather than debt being officially 43.4% (not 37% as Brown lied on Andrew Marr) it?s more like 100% and that?s not even counting Northern Rock. Even using the official figure we still have the highest debt of any major country in the world. Also Britain has household debt of 160% of income ? not just the highest in the G7 but the highest any G7 country has ever known. And what did Brown do about it at the time? Nothing, despite being warned years ago (even by the BBC?s own Robert Peston in 2005). Official inflation figures are a lie as we all know.
This is why, despite a global problem, Britain will be the only country to enter recession this year according to OECD.
A more important point however, you?ve fallen for the classic Labour line, like many journalists have, that Brown?s unpopularity is a direct result of the credit crunch. Perhaps you would like to explain what the following issues have to do with credit crunch:
Dithering over the election that never was,
10p Tax fiasco,
Failing to uphold a concrete manifesto promise on a referendum,
Increased VED on cars where an Aston Martin DB7 will now cost less to tax than a family Mondeo,
Loss of Child Benefit data,
Loss of DVLA data,
Loss of Prison officers data,
Fortnightly bin collections,
Increased Child Poverty,
Dithering over Northern Rock,
Broke a promise to hold an inquiry into the Iraq war,
42 Days,
Ministers breaking Labour?s own rules over donations,
The list goes on and on and on and that?s only in one year.
At times like this what people are looking for is a strong government, instead we have a tired, deceitful, and incompetent administration riddled with in-fighting - get them out!
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Your right of course, if you deal in generalitys such as "he has taken the country downhill" I cannot of course rebut your statement.
I could list you a large number of achievements of the labour government over the past 10 years, but that isnt really the point is it, the government needs to show what it can do now and for the future.
To tackle one issue though the 10p tax rate, it raises a small smile everytime gordon browns detractors raise this one. They and the media seem to forget who introduced this tax band in the first place.
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# 104
"looting our children to pay for their client state" ??
Very catchy. Is that the new one from the Manic Street Preachers?
Think I know what U mean. U mean increasing government borrowing to pay for an expanded public sector, would that be right?
(see, I'm getting quite fluent in U speak)
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# 102
Right to bear arms, U haven't mentioned yet ... surprising because U have a whiff of Waco and Hungerford about U.
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To tackle one issue though the 10p tax rate, it raises a small smile everytime gordon browns detractors raise this one.
Well it was in their 1997 manifesto. Look.
We will promote personal prosperity for all
* Economic stability to promote investment
* Tough inflation target, mortgage rates as low as possible
* Stick for two years within existing spending limits
* Five-year pledge: no increase in income tax rates
* Long-term objective of ten pence starting rate of income tax
They must have missed out the bit about this being a temporary measure.
Mind you, as the EU referendum reminds us, Labour manifestos aren't fit for toilet paper.
How would you react if the Tories put in a 'five pence starting rate' commitment and then held it for a week or two before reverting to twice that? Well, we met our manifesto commitment they could claim. Hmmmm. How do you think the voters would react to that? You smile away. You smile for the next eighteen months and then watch 30 million people have a real good laugh.
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# 118 ghani
Congratulations! ... an anti Labour post that's, on the whole, free of silly reactionary chanting.
You have a few things wrong but, nevertheless, I'm pleased to award a B+
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Think I know what U mean. U mean increasing government borrowing to pay for an expanded public sector, would that be right?
Look, if you're going to use standard Labour double-speak you have to use the accepted newthink. Increased borrowing and squandering is not referred to as such by the Ministry for Disinformation. Nor is it referred to as 'increasing government borrowing to pay for an expanded public sector'.
C'mon. It's on the tip of your tongue.
C'mon. What is it called?
Okay, I'll remind you: In NewLabSpeak 'Borrowing and squandering' is 'essential investment in infrastructure'. Should be about 80bn of 'essential investment in infrastructure' this financial year. Well over 100bn by 2009/201.
Boy are we going to have some 'infrastructure' over the next two years. The 'infrastructure' of the past eleven years is going to pale into insignificance. The budget deficit should be pretty spectacular too.
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#123
So you concede Gordon brown did in fact introduce the 10p rate in the first place, good of you there.
The poorest in our society benefited from this for over 10 years, hardly a couple of weeks.
The tax rate was abolished as economic conditions have moved on with introduction of tax credits and minimum wage etc. The mistake was not smoothing the transition for the poorest in society which was later rectified.
If the tories want to promise a 5p in the pound lowest rate of income tax fine, if they keep it for 10 years too great ! So long as they explain exactly how they will pay for it and the effect it will have on indirect taxation and/or the provision of public services. Thats what grown up government is about.
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#120
more newlabour intellectual snobbery. 'What would my techers think'?
my teachers were a bunch of self righteous left wingers who wanted more pay for less hours. I couldn''t wait to get away from them and actually do some work. A bit like all the 16-18 year olds that newlabour patronisingly claims it wants to 'educate'.
You will all have to face it, you've lost the benefit of the doubt... not a good place to be.
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#118
the issues you list are mostly froth and you know it. If the economy was peachy and people felt safe and secure with their jobs such that their mortages and family finances were secure Labour would win the next election.
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Would you buy a used car off of Milliband?
Would you buy a carton of milk?
You might buy a newspaper, but you would have to check the date!
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It seems to me that there is a logical analytical sequence which can be used here. Let's try it:
1. "Is Labour/Brown responsible for all of our economic problems?" Obviously not; there is a global economic meltdown taking place; many UK problems had their roots in the early 90s anyway.
2. "Have Labour policies made our exposure to this problem better, or worse?" I would say "worse" - evidence includes: failing to curb the asset boom; failing to run surpluses in boom periods; allowing bureaucracy and the cost of government to get out of control; penalising pension funds; ignoring spiralling consumer debt; claiming to have abolished boom and bust.
3. "How far is Brown to blame for this?" Quite a lot; not as PM, but he was Chancellor when these mistakes were made.
4. "Is there a credible successor within the cabinet?" No; collective responsibility tars them all. A severe lack of charisma makes this worse.
5. "Is there a credible successor within Labour?" Unlikely, but not impossible; Frank Field, Alan Milburn are possibilities
6. "Is there any way back for Labour?" Not impossible, but highly implausible, with the Tories 20+ percent ahead, Labour demoralised and the coffers empty.
7. "Does anyone or any party offer a better programme?" Yes, the Lib Dems would, if led by Vince Cable.
8. "Would Cameron do better than Brown?" In the absence of clear policies, hard to say; but it is unlikely that he could do much worse.
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more newlabour intellectual snobbery. 'What would my techers think'?
Leave it. They're not worth it. You are experiencing standard apparatchik chaff here.
They don't like your message so rather than rebutting your message they attack you. You respond in kind and then off they trot to the moderators 'Please Sir, please Sir, he's being mean to me'. Kill the message Sir. Oh, and ban him from posting Sir.
Stick to the issue. Labour are disingenuous and incompetent to the very core of their being. The country has been hoodwinked and misled for the past decade. The government has squandered our children's future to provide cash for their pet projects and to buy Labour votes.
The country has finally woken up. This economic catastrophe is all Labours fault. Labour are doomed (but they may yet take us all with them).
Either way, come the election, they are history.
Good.
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# 125
I'll accept your figures since I'm sure U wouldn't make them up or twist them to suit a hard coded point of view.
So it looks like 100 bill of spending on infrastructure or twice that on bailing out the capitalist ultras in the private banking sector.
Mmmm, tough choice.
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#128
couldn't disagree more ;(
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the issues you list are mostly froth and you know it. If the economy was peachy and people felt safe and secure with their jobs such that their mortages and family finances were secure Labour would win the next election.
Sadly I think on this you are right. The creeping surveillance state and the catastrophic public finances didn't happen overnight. But The Voters were content to believe all was well while all that borrowed money got squandered into the economy and pump-primed yet more individual borrowing.
Big Brother is Watching You? Nope. Not bothered. Look, my house 'went up' 10% last year. It earns more than I do. I'm going to 'release the equity' and buy a new car. Aren't I the clever one?
Clinton had it right. 'It's the economy stupid'. Which is why it is only belatedly that folk are waking up to the great Labour swindle. But I think they understand what has happened now. Mind you, if Labour simply borrow several hundred billion, buy up the mortgage banks and let inflation rip then I think they might still get re-elected.
It's what I fully expect them to do. Surprised they haven't started already. Ohhhh.
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126 SotonBlogger There?s nothing wrong with the introduction of the 10p tax or indeed abolition of it, IF it was done for economic reasons. But it wasn?t.
Brown abolished it, to effectively pay for the tax cut (22p to 20P) for middle earners. A move clearly designed to appeal to these voters and wrong foot the Tories (check out Labour?s gloating at the time when he announced it). In effect he taxed 5 million poorer workers to benefit those who aren?t poor for voting reasons. A typically, highly cynical and deceptive move which epitomises Brown all over.
He was warned about this by Blair at the time, and Darling last year, but Brown choose to ignore them. The fact we then had a £2.7 Billion tax cut (at the time of the Crewe By-election, no coincidence I?m sure) is an admission he got it wrong.
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#128
you appear not to acknowledge that it's the policies followed by newlabour for eleven years that have left us without a 'peachy' economy (whatever that is) where people no longer feel safe and secure in either their homes or their jobs.
this is newlabour's achievement; eleven years of public and prvaite credit expansion leaving us with nothing to show for it except bills, for years and years.
not a single newlabour apologist on these psots has been able to explain or come back baout why the hosing measures and the energy measures are so meagre. The answer is simple; the Treasury won't allow it becaase the borrowing figures are completely out of control and rising at 10bn pounds a month.
never before has a labour government spent so much that even the Treasury is terrified of the consequences - they know when all th off balance sheet PFI comes back to be paid for over the next thirty years there will be shockingly bad debt figures for years to come.
poisonous ranting? I hope so in one respect; that the truth of this poisonous ranting will kill newlabour's prospects of being ingovernment ever again. When people finally realise the full extent of how much we have been deceived there will be a very heavy price to pay.
that fact alone tells why newlabour apologists are so desperate to conceal this fiasco of overspending and waste.
call an election immediately.
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# 127 Robin
Well I'm sorry to hear that about your teachers. We're all sorry to hear that.
Every child has the right to a good education and no child has the right to a better education than others. It's one of the non negotiable bastions of progressive, as opposed to reactionary, politics.
If it's important to you too (and I have a hunch that it is) you should consider voting Labour. You DEFINITELY shouldn't vote Tory.
What do you think? Will you consider it now I've pointed that out?
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# 130 Friendly
Well that more or less wraps it up, I guess ... can we all go home now?
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There is not going to be a change of leader.
Gordon Brown will have made it clear that any such challenge would result in him immediately calling a general election. That would mean Labour ministers and MPs being put out of a job two years earlier than would otherwise happen and they simply will not risk that.
Pigs like the comforts of their taxpayer-funded trough!
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Maybe a good team would be David Miliband and Ed Balls. One could compensate for the other.
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So it looks like 100 bill of spending on infrastructure or twice that on bailing out the capitalist ultras in the private banking sector.
Mmmm, tough choice.
Not at all. Not for Labour. They'll do both. Borrow and squander, trash the currency, call in the IMF. It's what they do.
Even the one penny coin had to be debased because there is more than a penny's worth of copper in there.
Still, as I said yesterday, re John Travolta in Pulp Fiction, it will have been worth having them trash the economy just to catch them in the act. They're well and truly caught in the act this time.
They are going to get annihilated at the next election.
They have nobody to blame but themselves.
Good.
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I thought the demise of the labour party and the second self induced felling of a prime minister would at least prove full of intrigue.
browns removal and milibands future failure to inspire the public seem so inevitable that there is a complete lack of intrigue.
miliband need not to have worried yesterday - he seems unable to generate the interest of a heseltine moment.
maybe miliband could try something radical like storming out of cabinet, or expressing an idea that doesn't read like bland business speak.
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#126
I don't mean to intervene in what is otherwise a personal feud, but can you explain to me how the 10p tax rate abolition will be smoothed for the poorest in the country in the next tax year, or does that not matter?
Can you also explain to me why it is that the UK appears to be heading for £100bn of borrowing when in fact the Chancellor had budgeted for only around £43bn? Is this what grown up government is all about?
Perhaps you can explain to the rest of the country why it is that, despite an unparalleled period of global growth and rising tax revenues, GB did not put any of this aside for the impending downturn? Is this what you call prudence.
How on earth do you explain the huge house price bubble without also criticising the (former) Chancellor for not taking steps to regulate the market more effectively?
While you are explaining this, perhaps you can tell me exactly how any party not in government can be certain of any of their spending / revenue raising plans when the deficit is being expanded each and every time a government minister opens his/her mouth? (internet access for all being one example).
Never mind, I am sure you will explain it all away by blaming Thatcher and the wicked capitalists and that Brown had no influence on anything over the last 11 years.
All the best
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138 Sagamix:
Nope, just trying to set out a balanced view, as this discussion seems to be getting very polarised.
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"If the tories want to promise a 5p in the pound lowest rate of income tax fine, if they keep it for 10 years too great ! So long as they explain exactly how they will pay for it and the effect it will have on indirect taxation and/or the provision of public services. Thats what grown up government is about."
I could create a 5p lowest rate of income tax upon election and ACTUALLY make money.
All a government would need to do is create a tax band below the current lowest band (say when you earn over £1000) and assign it a tax rate of 5p.
It has met my promise to lower the lowest rate of income tax - and I could write in my manifesto that I would raise taxes on higher earners to pay for it (technically I have as every tax payer would pay more!).
Then I could do a New Labour and when I elminate the 5p band everybody starts paying 20p tax at £1000 - everyone's a winner.
New Labour span the change as a removal of the 10p tax band, but what they really did was kept the tax band just increased the tax that was paid in the band to 20p.
New Labour promised not to increase income tax, however they did just that every year that they did not increase the tax bands in line with inflation.
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I've been a bit guilty of lazy thinking with a line that I've often repeated on these blogs i.e. " ... and by default, Dave and his motley crew will fill-the-boots at Westminster".
Although I still expect that to be the case in 2010 or whenever the General Election is, the political landscape in England at that time might be a bit more complicated than I had previously thought.
It might well turn out that the Tories have a smaller majority of MP's than expected, with the Lib-Dems gaining more seats than I'd previously thought.
Also, a few more Greens, Independents etc might find seats.
2010 is too soon for the English Democrats to actually get their first MP in place but they are sure to get seat(s) at the following (England only) General Election in 2014 or thereabouts.
It will be great to see the English political landscape so transformed over the next decade as England desparately need shaking up.
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#137
not a hope in hell...you trashed my father's pension
You trashed my pension
You trashed the NHS with huge amounts of overspending so morale has sunk to an all time low.
You've lowered eduational standards
You insist in education for al despite the best advice suggesting this is a total waste of money
you sold the national gold reserves at an all time low
You invaded Iraq on trumped up evidence and soldiers are still dying to save your face
You abused the honours system
You've abused the party funding system
The prime minister doesn't even answer questions anymore at PMQs
You've saddled our children with a mountain of PFI debt to pay off...
You've run up a deficit into downturn
We have the highest budget deficit and government debt in the developed world according to the latest oECD figures
You've trashed the currency
And you want me to vote for more of the same?
Forget about it.
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Sagamix wrote:
"Every child has the right to a good education and no child has the right to a better education than others. It's one of the non negotiable bastions of progressive, as opposed to reactionary, politics.
If it's important to you too (and I have a hunch that it is) you should consider voting Labour. You DEFINITELY shouldn't vote Tory."
Another case of Labour 'do as I say, not as I do'.
How many Labour politicians went to public schools and how many now send their own children for private education? They don't like to talk about it (private, you know?) but they know that state education is second-rate and, whilst they are happy to condemn our children as a matter of socialist principle, they certainly won't damn their own!
Labour are two-faced hypocrites. And that is why I DEFINITELY WILL be voting Conservative!
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Listening yesterday to Milliband, the manner of his delivery sounded just like Tony Blair.
No thank you.
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Thatcher was seen as being too right wing towards the end. The public wanted something more centre orientated. Finding a solution which satisfied the Consevrative party was fairly easy, Major - lets say he was right-to-centre. That met the specification of the Tory party who had to elect him and the public. Labour at that time were seen as being too Left. Major took the hard right edge off but still left the middle ground vacant. Major successful up to a point, held the ground. Largely unopposed in where he positioned himself, nobody else trying to steal the ground.
Blair and co re-position Labour as NuLabour and take the middle ground vacated by the Tories. See at the time as pulling labour screaming and kicking - in parts - to the central ground. Many in the Labour party unhappy with the move to centre.
Blair successful but gone. NuLabour public popularity imploding. Doesnt matter why. Labour needs a new position. Can't stay where it is, has to move. Can't move right, in fact current central position compromised due to current problems - seen as being down at least in part to centralist policies. Pressure from left of Labour group. Has to end up moving left.
Thats the nub of the Brown successor problem. The sucessor has to be further left to satisfy the Labour members who have to elect him, but it would appear the public does not want a more left Labour. So at least some of Labour want a centre-ish orientated leader rather than too left, quite a powerful lobby. How are the two opposing demands going to be met - they can't. Thats why Labour are so paralysed on the matter. Brown stays whilst there is paralysis.
A Labour successor has to be seen as a new direction - that is a Labour common cry, so it can't come out of the Brown ring. Newbies havent the clout or experience. The Fringe doesnt look attractive to the public. Difficult to find candidates. One or two are possible but they might require gelding or a charm school.
Meanwhile Cameron and other parties are eyeing up the vacant centre ground. easy to move into. Labour just doesn't seem to realise what is going on, not publically at least. Seems to suggest they are not used to life being hard, not battle proven. Could be a bit like Boadicea against the Romans if things go wrong.
Cameron is probably right to keep a low profile, he can't position himself to the max until Labour redefine and there is no need to. In the same way Blair almost became the new centre conservative inheritor then Cameron could almost become the new centre labour inheritor if thing go well for him. The king is dead, long live the king.
Anybody looking to identify a new image or policy has the significant problem of the debt and resulting tax problems any new government will inherit, they give very little room for movement so centre ground policies are always going to look similar giving a identity problem to aspirants.
However when instabilies develop anything can happen and it depend on where Labour position and where other parties position themselves. Any vacant ground is unlikley to be vacant for too long.
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#137
and while I'm at it; there is nothing 'progressive' about newlabour lowest common denominator politics.
what's progessive about introducing and then removing 10p taxation?
what's progressive about saddling our children with all this debt?
what's progressive about keeping one million people at home on incapacity benefits?
What's progressive about a party that has willfully destroyed civil liberties over eleven years?
What's progresssive about the newlabour newnasty party?
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#143
Borrowing is up because we are in the down period of the economic cycle and unlike previous administrations, labour has decided to maintain public spending to support the economy as whole. It is called keynesian economics go read about it if you are unsure what that is all about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics
The house price bubble can be explained quite neatly by the fact that due to property speculation alongside the low interest / low inflation economy needed for economic stability and growth resulted in residential property outstripping the share and bond markets, people got greedy basically and now they are paying the price. The sad thing is that the ordinary man on the street has got caught up in the speculative bubble. This is part and parcel of what I said earlier about a juvenile elecorate needing to take more personal responsibility for their own individual behaviours. I am not saddled with debt or a mortage because I prudently saw that earning to property ratios were crazy, if I could see so could the majority of the country if they chose to look.
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"Brown will pledge to help 1.4 million children get access to the internet at home by giving poorer families vouchers worth £700."
Another sign that Labour are totally missing the point.
When people are worried about how to pay their bills, Labour think it's right to throw money and people to buy computers which most won't be able to use because they can't afford the money to pay for the electricity to run them.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Come back Michael Foot, all is forgiven.
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Borrowing is up because we are in the down period of the economic cycle and unlike previous administrations, labour has decided to maintain public spending to support the economy as whole.
Bwahahahahahahaha.
Borrowing is up because we're in the 'down period' of an economic cycle. It's back to the re-education camp for you. Gordon Brown has abolished 'boom and bust'. There is no 'down period'. There is no 'cycle'.
But let's just get back to the real world outside Gordonomic fantasy where boom and bust haven't been abolished. This 100bn or so he'll be borrowing this year, at the onset of the down-cycle. Just for starters. Because that's what you do in down-cycles apparently. Couldn't he just use the money he saved in the 'up-cycle'? You know, the last eleven years while he was chancellor/PM. Prudently steering the ship of state. That money that he saved?
Or is that getting all too Keynsian?
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SotonBlogger # 154.
You are quoting Wikipedia as an authorative source of information?
That is ridiculous.
Mind you, it can't be long before Labour start doing the same thing - it would be an easy way of dressing up their lies and propoganda. There must be a percentage of the population who think that, because it is stated in an organ with'pedia' in the title, it must be true.
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The house price bubble can be explained quite neatly by the fact that due to property speculation alongside the low interest / low inflation economy needed for economic stability and growth
Bwahahahahahahaha.
The housing bubble can be explained quite neatly by a government borrowing 300bn quid to employ a million extra make-work public employees since 2001. Them all going out and bidding up the price of available housing with their copper-bottomed guaranteed salaries. The pump-priming this brought about combined with the BoE constrained to a deliberately cherry-picked inflation proxy that took no account of rampant inflation gave us the house price bubble.
I got out too. But I'm worried that the next natural step for a Labour government will be to inflate away the value of my cash. That's if the banks don't all collapse first.
Or confiscate it. 'For the public good.'
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This is part and parcel of what I said earlier about a juvenile elecorate needing to take more personal responsibility for their own individual behaviours. I am not saddled with debt or a mortage because I prudently saw that earning to property ratios were crazy, if I could see so could the majority of the country if they chose to look.
You want to treat the electorate as children and that is up to you. The government treats us as children often enough.
Don't drink so much (we all know it doesn't do us a lot of good but they still mention it). Don't smoke (we all know it does you no good at all but they still think it worthwhile to mention it and have TV ad campaigns). Don't eat so much, get a bit of exercise. Again, we know we should but still the government feels it's worth mentioning it.
Going on holiday? Maybe having a party? Might meet a girl/boy? Think about using a condom. Yeah, okay. Got it.
We might complain that they're behaving like a bunch of old women and a 'nanny' state but it doesn't stop them doing it.
But this housing bubble? Where were the TV ads warning us not to take on too much debt? Particularly since it was only fifteen years ago since the last house price boom/bust.
Not a peep. Quite the opposite. Every obstacle removed. No regulation, rigged low interest rates, 'shared ownership' schemes. The government has even admitted it knew a bubble was in force since at least 2005 but they chose to say nothing.
And we all know why. Because the sole reason for this 'miracle economy' was monster amounts of government and individual borrowing. We're about to see the true value of our 'miracle' economy. One that relies on earned cash and not borrowed cash. It won't be pretty.
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158:
Spot on. You neatly identify both a root cause of the problem (Labour's customary addiction to bureaucracy) and the scariest of the likely solutions (inflation and confiscation).
Another danger is that, as people begin to recognise the danger, 'bad money will drive out good'.
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#79
"The only people with silver spoons these days are those millions on incapacity benefit, those millions on the dole, the millions of single mothers on state benefits and the one million extra public service workers with defined benefit pensions schemes subsidised by those paying taxes in the private sector".
Where do I start?
First, a very factual correction - there hasn't been 'millions on the dole' for a long while now. Or even 1 million. I seem to remember unemployment rose to massive levels during the last Government - it was 'a price well worth paying to control inflation' or something like that.
Second, so you believe that state benefits equate to a silver spoon? How much do you think you would get per week if you went onto state benefits? Amuse me, have a guess. Don't be shy. Then I can simply show the correct figures and expose your point for the nonsense it is.
Related, is trying to allow people access to £2 million of unearned and untaxed inheritance more like giving people a silver spoon? Isn't being born into a landed family a silver spoon? Or is it being born to a single mother living on an inner-city council estate? Do you really need me to compare?
Third, if life's so cushy in the public sector, why not work there? I suspect that posts of equivalent seniority in the public sector would pay you significantly less than you currently earn.
More seriously on this point, I doubt that DB-promises to public sector workers will be kept to. I'm sure the Government will renege on these promises when it is forced to confront the cost. There will be a lot of demands on the taxpayer in 20-30 years time when baby-boomers retire that will be more pressing, and force this tough decision to be taken.
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Shesh guys. Nothing said here matters a monkeys. Take up yoga or something. High blood pressure shortens you life. On top of everything else do you want that cashed in early.
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Who let this geek Milliband loose in the tukshop. He's eaten all the sweets, made a clumsy fool of himself and is slowly digging his own grave. He is even more unelectable than Gordon Brown. How do these people get the jobs - I have probably not had his education but have worked in numerous position which has given me a great insight into people - this man has probably never been in business, wouldn't know what a bus was until it knocked him down -get rid of the lot of them - they are copsing one by one and digging their own graves - they are truly an embarrassment - I cringe when I hear this so called cabinet try to make a speech. Get rid quick.
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What we think of David Miliband in South SHields.
He is a big on rhetoric, but less so on substance.
As Foreign Secretary he has three lines on foreign policy: 'We need better planning for how to win the peace in Iraq, not just win the war.' There is no mention of Afghanistan, the Arab/Israeli coADVERTISEMENTnflict, the problems in Africa, or rendition of suspected terrorists.
His contribution on how to tackle the economic recession and the present credit crunch contains 10 words: 'people want protection from a downturn made in Wall Street'. No mention of how we pay for the ever-increasing costs of public services.
Does he want higher taxes, higher borrowing or more Private Finance Initiatives (PFI) ? which means spend now, pay later?
On taxation, he may not know it, but we have no more money to pay higher taxes, as we are having to cope with inflation and massive increases in fuel cost.
To tackle climate change, he says we have to 'cut energy bills'. I think he means energy use.
On public services he has a little more to say: "with hindsight, we should have got on with reforming the NHS sooner", and "we need the imagination to distribute more power and control to citizens over the education, healthcare and social services they receive".
With his call for 'real change' and 'pursuing traditional goals', does he mean going back to old Labour policies of socialism, or does he wish to pursue the present policies of more privatisation and PFI?
To write about Labour's mistake will not help Gordon Brown win the next general election, but it puts down a marker of David's naked ambition.
Someone referred to him as a 'brain box'. I think the box is empty.
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I've been watching Brown's speech, trying to find some content amidst the nauseating cliches and sentimentality. He seems to think that the world economy is going to "double in size". Huh? A bit out of touch, methinks...
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Milli bland?
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I find David Minibrown lacking. Mr Bean goes political but not funny. Is that all that is put forward by Labour rebels.
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#152 - You Said
'This is part and parcel of what I said earlier about a juvenile elecorate needing to take more personal responsibility for their own individual behaviours. I am not saddled with debt or a mortage because I prudently saw that earning to property ratios were crazy, if I could see so could the majority of the country if they chose to look.'
I couldn't agree more. However, if you could see it coming, why didn't Gordon? Why does he need to borrow vast sums when he could have saved for the rainy day you foresaw?
It is not good enough to spend, spend spend, and then when the good times dry up, you resort to borrow, borrow, borrow as if there would be no impact on the rest of us.
I am sad to say that your view of economics is ever so slightly tinted by your political viewpoint. Don't forget that not only will Gordon leave future generations with a large debt through direct borrowing, he has also heaped the PPP/PFI debt on top for good measure. This is equivalent to piling your credit card debt on to your mortgage. It is anyones guess when these debts will be repaid. This will have an impact on future tax levels, growth in the economy and the pound in your pocket. I am so pleased that you feel quite so sanguine about it. Personally, I am hopping mad.
All the best.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Gordon will have to pull something out of his bag to stop all the sniping. Otherwise the next elections will be given to the Conservatives on a golden platter! Why cannot Labour members unite behind Gordon especially as he has so faithfully served them as Chancellor and now as PM? The very people he has promoted to high positions in his Cabinet are showing total ingratitude and are sharpening their knives to oust him! Fortunately they are not the majority! They are really testing his mettle! But this could also mean that Labour loses the next elections. How sad!
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the man is typical of a discredited and loathed political elite
hes never had a real job
he talks in meaningless politico speak
hes a pretty incompetent foreign secretary as far anyone can tell
hes responsible for those nasty recycling laws
his expense claims would no doubt put him in jail if submiitted in the real world to real employers
hes just out for himself
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If you put a gun to my head, yes. But, if you wanted the full picture it would have to be under NDA. Some of that stuff is still commercially (and personally) sensitive.
What's important is the balance between vision and delivery, and getting attention and giving the ranch away. This is a management and self-management issue.
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Milliband's chances have plummeted spectacularly after The Labour Party Conference in which he made a rather poor speech and dropped a mega clanger. Gordon Brown has surrounded himself with sycophants and bullies (Prescott). Noone will have the balls to oppose him for fear of instigating as they say 'a Hezeltine moment'. We are unfortunately stuck with him until 2010. Let's hope for all our sakes that he clears up at least some of the mess he is partly to blame for but then he really must go!
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"I chased a bug around a tree 'e'll have my blood I know he will!"
Think of the Milipede's face and repeat this childrens' verse VERY quickly!
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I prefer the narrative that Miliband is the Commander Decker to Admiral Kirk. He's young with a bright future ahead of him but when push comes to shove he knows who occupies the hot seat. If he carries on executing his duties well enough an opportunity will arise on its own: no pushing or shoving required.
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I tuned in and out of Ed Ball's speech because it was so spectacularly dull, delivered on a monotone and devoid of any real emotion. I confess to being rather put off by the large red spot on the side of his chin. Blow me if each time I caught a bit of his speech he was having a go at The Conservatives. Attack is the best form of defence I suppose but they seem to be so much on the back foot at the moment that any policies of their own are lost in the negativity of their approach. They certainly seem to recognise their main threat because The Lib Dems appear to get no mention at all!
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After seeing Milliband's tactless and inept handing of the recent situation between Russia and Georgia he is certainly not a man I would trust as the Prime Minister of this country.
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Let's face it. Thjere is nobody in his own party with the standing or dare I say it intelligence to depose him. That leaves his party in limbo until 2010 when we will have the chance remove the rug from under his feet.
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Most certainly not! We, 'the people', have to learn the lessons of poor political address of the fundamental issues that creates the stresses and strains of the 'ordinary person' in our communities.
Politician ONLY address the 'newspaper headlines'. When is the MP in your constituent going to challenge his own party ion central government in order the solve the FAILING in our local communities?
MPs already have the impossible task of representing 60, 70 or 80,000 people in their constituents. Why do we tollerate this nonsence?
Will Mr Milliband change the face of politics and show that he really understands the fundamental issues in our local communities and seek a new package for the address of issues in our communities? I doubt it!
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Hi,4ever fair how many ppl. should an MP. look after then? surely they understood that when they were voted in to office! On second thoughts your probably right! Ive never heard a politicion answer a question with a yes or no answer! Im sure Mr Milli band understands understands the fundamental issues its just all us old tax payers who prop. them up! The gift of the gab is a wonderfull thing with a brain behind it!
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