Government in waiting?
Tomorrow sees the beginning of the Tory conference. It's a moment of risk for the Conservatives and their leader David Cameron. With conventional wisdom now suggesting that they're heading for power, they'll be under more scrutiny than ever before to test whether they look like a government in waiting and whether he is ready to be prime minister.
On Monday night, Panorama will screen a film I've made called Next stop Downing Street? It's the story of a single day on which I took the Tory leader to Birmingham - the city where the Tories are holding their conference - to meet five undecided voters and to be quizzed by them one on one.
The programme is a mirror of a Panorama I made with Tony Blair when he was leader of the opposition, called Blair's Britain. Cameron, like Blair then, is ahead in the polls although those same polls suggest that they don't know what he stands for.
As deputy editor of Panorama in 1994, I persuaded Blair to take the risk of meeting people he knew little about on camera.
In 2008, I suggested the same format to David Cameron's advisers.
The Panorama team picked undecided voters (without the involvement of or knowledge of Cameron or his aides) to test the Tory leader on a range of issues and to see how the man who's currently on course to be our next prime minister would handle them.
It is these voters that determined the agenda of the programme. My job - this time as reporter - was to pursue their line of questioning and to try to ensure they got answers.
Now, as then, the most memorable parts of the programme are about the human interactions rather than the policy detail.
In 1994, Tony Blair told an elderly couple who wanted the return of corporal punishment that he had been caned at school and it hadn't done him any harm. In a bizarre coincidence, David Cameron is also pressed on the return of the cane but this time it's by a DJ on a black community radio station called Dennis.
Tony Blair confessed to Panorama all those years ago that he didn't mind if people got very rich. In 2008, David Cameron is tackled about his privileged background and that of many of his shadow cabinet who are millionaires by a single mother who works on one of Birmingham's poorest estates.
In addition, the programme sees the Conservative leader pressed by a doctor on increasing corporate involvement in the NHS; by a small business man on how he'll pay for tax cuts; and by a green activist on whether he'll have the guts to tell us all to pay more to fly.
At the end of the programme, those who met him are asked for their verdicts and they give some interesting responses.
PS. The day we filmed (8 September) was the one on which, as I reported at the time, David Cameron and Gordon Brown, ended up a carriage apart on the same train back to London from Birmingham.
UPDATE, 29 September: I've posted a couple of clips ahead of the programme here.
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Looking forward to the other side of the picture in the coming week.
Fully agree with an earlier poster who is waiting to see what our Prime Minister will do during the Conservative conference that 'has been planned for months'.
Interesting responses? You have only to read this and other blogs to get the mood in the country.
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I am very much looking forward to the programme. Many labour members keep telling me David Cameron is going to get found out soon. When I ask found our for what they reply with "you know". Well I expect this type of programme will put him on display as either someone ready to be leader or not. I expect there will be nothing exciting or dramatic about it, but it should certainly be interesting.
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The fact is that the bounce in the polls over the last week is just a blip before the next disaster to happen for this incompetent government. Whether we like it or not Cameron better be ready for government because the British people are extremely angry with Labour for many many reasons. The tories need to produce policy this week and good policy at that. They need to get an economic plan - one that doesn't involve too much nationalisation of banks but allows the banks to set aside their bad debts to be repaid in years to come and also one that will free up liquidity.
Whether we like it or not there are going to be very tough years ahead to get us out of the mess that Brown has created. The books don't balance and for this reason alone we need radical action. It will be tough but worth it in the long run.
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No doubt the Tory conference will be overshadowed by some wonderful announcement from Downing Street of an extra 10 billion to provide sattelite TV for single mothers and those on jobseekers allowance. Or, maybe a one off payment to all OAPs to help with their fuel bills, this will be paid for in a couple of months by a rise in green taxes to save the planet (or Africa), this however will be announced in the middle of a world cup qualifier when no one is listening. As for the green activist who wants us to pay more to fly, I hope David Cameron has the guts to tell him to get real, taxes on flying hit hardest on ordinary people who are trying to get a holiday, the people who do most flying can happily afford to pay the extra tax
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Haven't seen the program as it hasn't been aired yet , but on the point of Mr . Cameron priviledge back ground and his shadow cabinet millioners I'd would like to say: wouldn't it better to have members of government whose well off to start with , so they could worry more about the country they serve than the one that still treat their position as a career job ? Having said that there are many of the well off who lost touch with the real life outside their circle , though I suppose that won't happen if you are in the thick of ruling the country no?
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Let's face it Cameron couldn't do any worse than Crash Gordon after 11 years gradually wrecking rather than strengthening the economy. But that won't be enough to win handsomely.
What this country needs is CLEAR direction from a leader who knows his historical mission. The next 5 years will be about rescuing and rebuilding the economy after the high speed car crash it is going through with Crash Gordon at the wheel.............and he want's more time???? For what??? To go into reverse then go careering off at high speed again on a mega borrowing binge only to hit the buffers once more???
No! All this borrowing and wasteful spending needs to come to an end.....if not reduced.
The British people need their money back! The state needs to be reduced!
Cameron now needs to have the courage to put forward a true Thatcherite economic policy of reduced Go'vt spending, reduced borrowing and reduced taxes. He also needs to level with people about the Gov'ts "scorched earth policy" (to quote Alan Duncan) and the mess he will inherit and tell people it could be 5 years of hard Labour before there is any chance of a tax cut. Please just give us honesty.
The people of this country are crying out for new thrifty policies to get us through.
We will be watching and listening to find out if DC is going to be an agent for real change.
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Labour will do anything to try at destroy David Cameron. However, that is highly unlikely to work.
People are facing massive rises in basic costs - food, energy etc - and while Labour cannot be held totally responsible they are seen as failures.
Then you have ID cards, immigration issues, two wars with no visible way out, continual loss of personal data, PFI debt out of control and an apparent lack of strong leadership.
Personal attacks on Cameron won't wash woth many. A "novice"? Tony Blair was a novice and with our "experienced" Government in charge then a novice can't really do any worse.
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It doesn't matter if he's ready or not.
He has the one quality that Gordon Brown can never possess, he's not Gordon Brown.
That alone guarantees his party victory.
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Your focus on individuals is misguided - as a supporter of parliamentry democracy I actually find it offensive and dangerous.
Even if it turned out that Cameron had a fatal flaw - the tories would select a new leader and be elected with a landslide.
Sure everyone hates brown, but they also hate the cabinet for not getting rid of him, and the party for the same reason.
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Will the BBC be wheeling in Labour MP's to put their view of the Tories. The other party's were visible by their absence at Manchester.
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No way are the Tories ready for power - they have no policies and their think tanks come up with lunatic ideas. (e.g. urging people to abandon northern cities.)
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Nick; Will you be doing the same thing for Brown, or is he too scared to face real people?
Took a lot of political courage for Cameron to agree to that when he knows full well that it's very very unlikely that Brown would ever face the same risk himself of open debate with real people.
Should be an interesting program anyway; I look forward to seeing it.
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Dear "John_from_Hendon",
You represent the Labour Party and thanks for illustratin so clearly why it must go.
The "think tank" which came up with the "lunatic idea" of "urging people to abandon northern cities" was, as I am sure you know perfectly well, nothing to do with the Conservative Party but is headed by a Liberal Democrat. I believe it was the Conservative Party which quite rightly described this policy proposal as lunatic.
Let's hold an election, shall we? After all, Gordon Brown doesn't look at the Polls
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Does anyone still believe that the present incumbents are competent enough to run the country?
This is the most naive, amateurish and immoral Government in history!
The sooner we get rid of them the better.
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As a floating voter I have still not seen any thing that helps the majority of people in the country that Cameron or the Conservatives have put forward to date. It still seems to me that the Tories want to go back to the Thatcher era and help the better off but forget the poor. Perhaps this conference will change that, but I won't bet on it.
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C_E_H
Me: I don't think it matters a good goddamn whether a politician looks or sounds good on TV. But I do like it if they manage our tax spend in a sensible manner.
You: "While you acknowledge difficulties this is the bit you don't get, ideas and sentiments, or talk, is cheap. There's a cognitive dissonce in there. If you pursue it you'll only end up getting angry and bitter."
I actually read all your stuff. I try to work out what you're attempting to get across.
But I simply don't understand this.
I'm very aware that ideas and sentiments, or talk, is cheap. That's why I like politicians (or businessmen and women) who do stuff well, even if they aren't the glossiest presenters. That's why I focus on getting stuff done - NOT the presentational flim-flam.
I've stood up and presented in around 20 countries, worrying all the time that the production guys could actually deliver what I was allowed to promise.
I've also run bits of business, where - encouraging and using other people's smarts plus a bit of technology - productivity rose by 40%, with minor cost increases and no loss of personnel.
(That's just to reassure derekb that I'm not a "slash and burn" type... And that was within a state-owned company.)
Have also helped cut huge chunks (millions) off IT project costs. Not because I could deliver the practical end-result, but by chopping through administrative overheads.
A little bit of anger can be useful. Plenty of people have been angry at me. Sometimes quite rightly. Sometimes because I challenged assumptions they didn't need to make, but were part of a "corporate expectation" and would simply add unneccesary cost and/or time.
I'd be happy to learn that Ministers jumped up and down, screamed and shouted, to get big chunks of loot (our tax money) lopped off projects.
Funny, isn't it derekb, that I actually like to keep costs under control. That should please you, as an awful lot of government spend goes to those terrible consultancy-led organisations. Kick 'em once, you get a little bit off. Kick 'em all the way through negotiations and costs disappear like a master-slimmers hips. (Been there, so I know how to do it...)
Patronising Pat H was one of the worst. She (with Brown's approval) permitted quite unneccesary hikes in GP and consultants' income. More than they expected. But then Brown claims a great breakthrough, by "forcing" GPs to do what they were already doing much more cheaply.
Just madness. But it doesn't matter, really, because it's just "Government" spending. Actually, it's not. It's our spending.
Bitterness isn't worth the effort.
Ideas are critical in private and public life. Just sloshing them about (as Blair and all the NL project team did) doesn't add an iota to anyone's life.
I don't need a "man with a vision" as PM. I need someone who will define a fairly simple, understandable, set of "next-steps" and then control their delivery.
It's the lack of control over delivery that makes this administration seem inept.
Does that make me sound bitter?
Oh, well.
I'm off to see my old Mum for a while, so probably won't enjoy the dog-fight for a few days. She, by the way, was a science teacher, but no child ever left her class year being unable to read! If she spotted someone with problems, she'd work with them to ensure they could cope and keep up...
Guess that's what education is really about. It certainly isn't about buildings or teaching-to-the-test...
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So it was filmed on 8th September? 20 days is a long time in politics - well, this last 20 days has been!
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rambo60 @15,
Congratulations!
You have won today's award for the most appallingly written post with special commendation for Most Spelling and Grammatical Mistakes Per Sentence.
You'll be happy to hear that your political opinions as stated also cause great mirth.
You are indeed representative of the PM you support.
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Let's face it they can't do any worse than the present bunch of "no hopers"!
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"Human interactions rather than the policy details" Profound words.
With Cameron's background he will always come across as the pivileged rich kid who might make the right noises but who you know can never share your troubles. It's the "white man can't truly sing the blues" syndrome. Even on the Conservatives' stronger points like law and order you know that come sundown their leader goes back to a nice family home in London or an affluent part of Oxfordshire; safe and sound while the rest of us have to run the yobbo gauntlet.
Nu-Labour has contained a fair selection of socio-economic pseuds and fakes but at least some of the Labour side of the house are a bit more like the people you meet down at the pub. As we go into a long lead-in to the next election most of the population is going to end up totally bamboozled by claims and counter-claims. This is compounded by current economic uncertainties. As when buying a used car, the punters eventually give up trying to make sense of it all and tend to go with the salesman with whom they identify.
Cameron may want to reach out but Davis, Hague, Fox, even Pickles all come over much better in the "bloke at the pub" stakes.
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To be honest I don't think Cameron will make a particularly good PM although he will come across quite well on the programme.
However, what I also don't understand is this attitude that some members of the public seem to have which is to suggest that because the Tories are thin on alternative policies at the moment that we should just carry on as if nothing has happened.
If a government, after a decade in power, has nothing to show for itself other than incompetence, mismanagement and waste then they deserve to be kicked out. Regardless of the alternative.
Brown, throughout his time as Chancellor, saw tax and spend as the answer to everything. He has taxed us to the hilt, squandered billions of it and when our taxes weren't enough he robbed our pensions and sold our gold. Even fiddling the figures can't help him anymore (changing the definition of the economic cycle, re-defining what constituted borrowing, keeping hundreds of billions of pounds of debt off balance sheet). His mismanagement is plain for all to see.
And for all these things, regardless of whether Cameron can come up with eye-catching policies, Brown deserves to be removed from office.
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David Cameron needs to be asked if the Conservative Party plans to stop the discrimination against 50% of the relatively small number of British state pensioners who live abroad (for many reasons - not always from choice). These pensioners find that the pensions they paid into the National Insurance Fund for, are frozen from the time they move or retire to Australia, Canada, etc (one list of countries).
The other 50% of British state pensioners, who are living in a second list of countries, and who also paid into the National Insurance Fund while working, receive annual indexing to their pensions, as if they lived in the UK. They have been lucky enough to move to Israel, the USA, Europe or one of the other countries in the indexed list.
Organising this unfairness and answering the questions of puzzled pensioners must take a great deal of admin time at the DWP!
This discrinination means that paying into the National Insurance while working in the UK is a lottery. Is this what the Conservatives want? I know that the National Lottery is very useful but should they be playing with pensioners in this way?
I have written to David Cameron several times as our local MP (a good local MP, by the way) but the replies are non-committal. I am told by the Labour Party that they "have no intention" of changing the frozen pensioners' plight. Are you able to find out what Cameron plans to do about it? Nothing?
www.pension-parity-uk.com clarifies the problem and shows that the excuses given not to "be fair" are spurious.
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It is coming to a state who ever but not this lot.
We have all the problems here, without resolving Brown and Darling has gone to US. In my view other lot cannot be worse than this lot.
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"Conventional wisdom" is marketing speak fo "manufactured inevitability", so I can't run with that. The economic dislocation and wasteland the Tories created just doesn't get erased by a spin job. They haven't changed, as their comments on corporate governance and attitudes on wealth distrubution continue to show.
I agree with most folks, the Tories are still stuck in their Thatcherite dream. Now, this isn't a get out of jail free pass for Labour so Labour need to keep developing a sound grip on policy, including people, and creating a general sense they get it. That means ME succeeding and YOU giving a shit NOW. Cuz without that there is no long-term.
I note, the Tories are saying multiculturalism is bad and Britain's Christian heritage is important. I agree, minorities gaming the system isn't great and ethos matters, and think this is just more Tory positioning. I'm not persuaded they understand it or give a damn because their ideology enshrines cheating and selfishness.
Perception is everything, etcetera.
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The conference won't prove much either way. DC is a good performer and I'd be amazed if his speech is anything less than impressive. His ability at this sort of thing is why he got the job in the first place, isn't it?
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I don't think I am alone in expressing complete dissatisfaction with not only the main parties (I used to be a lib dem until their moronic asylum seeker policy), but also with the British electorate. It feels like people in my position have already left the UK for better pastures. The parties are obsessed with political correctness, they are so desperate for votes that they will seemingly chastise no segment of society.
We need a crackdown on chavs and their bad parents, more civil rights, a secular constitution to protect us from religion, more respect given to a proper scientific education rather than handing out qualifications willy-nilly, a simplified online election process, proportional representation, less government spending on stupid schemes, lower taxes, abolishing council tax, controlled immigration, more freedoms for personal drug use, legalised prostitution, and tougher sentences for those committing real offences like murder, robbery and fraud.
Instead we have a pathetic population clamouring for more handouts at the expense of the tax-payer, a population eager to surrender their freedoms for a false sense of security, and a cynical parliament whose only interest is preserving the status quo.
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They could be millionaires so they don't need to make money from public service. Also due to this they might not want to get two Jag's, couple of houses, etc on public money.
So this lot could workout to be cheaper to the public. Hopefully they will cut MPs salary, pension and expense as well.
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Pope at 28
Why so keen on legalised prostitution?
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Time for a load of Staff commenters to type in complaints of media left wing bias . When they know it isn't true. Trying to steer the BBC to the Conservatives?
The usual why are the prisons overcrowded? build more prisons but not in my backyard. Up north somewhere.
We will read pages of Why do I pay so much tax? Which is really saying 'I'm considerably richer than you' and be presented with load of dodgy figures. The conference will be presented by a load of dodgy figures.
Trying desperately to find ways to justify the scapegoating of the Government for the credit crunch and fuel prices. When they know it is an international issue. caused by greedy bankers. its funny because i don't usually get this cockney rhyming slang.
They claim to be against the class system. but cling to the class based stereotypes of Conservative and labour voters.
No I am not being paid and I am not a pseudonym. As some have been suggesting. Are you?
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The trouble is with Brown looking detatched and deluded to many is all DC has to do is look sane, surely its not that difficult. Outside the Brown Ring I havent seen anybody of note other than a couple of millionaire businessmen come forward to endorse Gordon Brown. All DC has to do is say really how ordinary he is and not rabbit on about aspirations to be a global mover and groover. If DC gets up every morning and looks in the mirror and says I really am very very ordinary and not really that bright and I must remember that all the time, then he's there.
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Chuck E Hogwash @26 lets the cat out of the bag by writing:
" ...[Tory] ideology enshrines cheating and selfishness".
Here we can see that all your many (too many?) 'impartial' and 'learned' zen-like-calm nonsensical utterances are neither impartial or learned, but flow from your ingrained hatred of the Conservatives.
All the rest is rationalisation.
Why else would one support the dissembling, incompetence and plain chicanery of Brown and his shambles of a government.
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sagamix @30 asks:
"Pope at 28: Why so keen on legalised prostitution?"
Maybe so that most politicians can be legitimised?
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Gerald Baker, writing in The Times newspaper yesterday, suggested that this forthcoming US Presidential Election is the one to lose. Perhaps the same can be said about our looming General Election in 2009/10?
Since 1979 it can be argued that no party is ever 'ready' for Government. Thatcher had some experience in the Heath Government but there were many whom were unsure about her leadership qualities. Indeed what is often forgotten about Thatcher is that her leadership was far from safe during 1979-1982 and it wasn't until the Falklands that she proved herself as a leader.
The same is arguable with Tony Blair. There had not been a Labour Government since 1979 and he had no ministerial experience himself (neither had most of his Cabinet) but in the end he proved himself and like Thatcher (rightly or wrongly) is seen as one of the 'better' PMs in recent times.
Now we are entering an interesting phase. I mentioned the comment from Baker deliberately as it seems as if events, particularly those of 1989-1992 are repeating themselves again. Many Conservatives argue that their fourth general election win in 1992 was in fact their greatest defeat - it split the party and led to a period of stagnant Government. Major's Government was dead on its feet even before Black Wednesday hit and things just got worse from there on until the landslide victory of New Labour in 1997.
Look at the situation now. The World Economy is in trouble and it seems as if the economic climate will be toxic for many years. The banking crisis looks set to increase as Bradford and Bingley need rescuing. As well as this, house prices are falling, unemployment is rising and the economy is stagnating. In reality, the credit crunch has done as much damage to Brown as Black Wednesday did to Major.
Now, it is estimated that things are set to get worse and people will feel more of a pinch. Would the Labour Party really want another term in Office? They may face a landslide in 2010 from Cameron but he too could be vulnerable in 2014/15. Brown is a loser and Labour cannot win with or without him. However, a fourth term could probably put the party out of office for a generation.
The Tories learnt that hard lesson in 1992. Perhaps Labour should duck the 2010 Election and focus on 2015...
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Cameron and his team have been conspicuous by their absence recently as the financial world disappears up its own exhaust pipe. Although I consider myself to be a traditional conservative (small "c") voter, I have little confidence that the present Tory regime have the faintest idea how to dig us out of this one. "Sharing the proceeds of growth" is hardly going to work is it? And sticking with Labour's current spending plans will be about as useful for our near-bankrupt economy as an ashtray on a motorbike. Like the majority of our political class of this generation, the current Tory crew seem to be as insubstantial and clueless as the rest of them. Where's the likes of Churchill when we most need him?
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Post 15 and 20.
Whilst I don't agree with Rambo60, MaxSceptic is just being mean, personal, elitist and superior.
Try again MaxSceptic on the basis of Rambo60's central point...not the way he expresses it.
Shame on you!
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LOL @ Jonties, your having a laugh, "this blog represents the views of the country" you want to try telling that to the good people of Plumstead who returned a Labour candidate with a 5% + swing from the Tories to Labour in a by election this week :D
I can just imagine all those Tory party members with their laptops and Blackberries poised so they can get their propgander posted as soon as a Nick Robinson posts on his blog so shallow.
Lets face it same old Tories have taken personality politics to new lows, and have really said nothing new apart from mount personal attacks against Gordon Brown, oh sorry I forgot to mention the inheritance tax reforms, which the same old Tories forgot to mention benefits multi millionaires.
The public will see through you shallow lot.
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This will be interesting, I remember Cameron doing this down on the beach at last year's conference and I think he struggles with the 'common touch' that Blair had.
Blair was hardly less privileged, but he wasn't an aristocrat descended from William IV, and it's very hard, especially for the Tories, to convince people they are on the side of regular people, when you naturally have this view of people like Cameron and Osbourne being groomed for state office from birth
when a regular politician says they 'feel your pain' it smacks of hypocrisy, on their safe well-paid jobs, when that politician is from the old upper classes, giving off an image of divine right, it's even worse - this does nothing for the tory image
it's really a shame that the tories will happily take power from labour's downfall, completely without merit, "we'll just shut up and they'll still vote for us anyway" - it's cynical, how is there any good government in that? i just hope the lib dems get around 8 million votes and seriously expose how flawed our electoral system is (their current 60 seats are based on over half of the votes for labour's 350+ seats)
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Essential to see the Tories provide more detail this week. The argument that "Labour always pinch our policies" is cobblers.
The usual right wing rant goes something like:
Brown is responsible for everthing bad since 1997. He kicks the poor and has no belief in social justice. There is no global downturn and all Britain's problems are home grown. Grown specifically by GB!
What are the Conservatives going to do specifically to ease the burden on the middle man?
What are they going to do to reduce/stablilse road fuel and domestic energy costs?
What will they do to curb the excesses/incompetence of the financial markets?
Will they re-introduce the 10p tax band?
I am quite happy to vote Conservative if there are some sensible constructive policies that benefit the majority of the population. If Cameron is a "One-Naton" Tory who genuinely believes in social justice (and this type of Tory does exist) then this is the week to prove it.
The presentation will no doubt be excellent -DC is first class when it comes to communication. Time though for some substance!
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Tony Blair always believed in what he said. He was a conviction politician. I disagreed with what he said. That's why I never voted for him. Hope Cameron won't fall into the same trap. I'll never vote Conservative but he stands a better chance if he doesn't ever reveal his hand. Might not get three terms but a third term has always been a disaster since the second world war!!
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I'm no big fan of smokstack Labour, spiv Tories, or dithering Liberals, but like the recession folks would be better off focusing on positive consensus for the long-term. The same goes for the media and electorate and, yes, I demand the same standards from myself before anyone mentions it.
You can turn policy direction on a dime but core ethos changes at a glacial pace. This isn't some bolt on extra, it's how people work. Labour has its issues but a better policy framework is doable. The Tories just haven't had long enough or been tested hard enough to have changed. That's just a scientific fact.
If I saw Tories supporting sound governance, and taking a slice out of their private incomes instead of gouging the poor, and getting over their Mugabe style mentality, I might start believing what they're trying to say. What they say is mere presentation. You do what you are. It's not going to be magically different this time.
Tories have no stones. Certainly, no heart.
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Excellent and thought provoking post at #35. Hopefully by 2015, Obama or McCain will have restored some stability to world financial markets and reduced some of the US Government's debt. At this point an election would be worth winning. Assuming that we don't have 4 million people unemployed in the UK and riots in the inner cities.
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NorthernThatcherite @37,
I was not being 'mean', I was being honest.
I was, of course, personal. Rambo60 wrote his post 'personally' (If one can call it writing)
If intolerance of appalling use of the English language is 'elitist', then so be it. Perhaps a few more 'elitist' teachers in our education system would result in better levels of literacy nationwide.
As for 'superior', I am no more or less superior than anyone else.
Additionally, I did respond to his central point (that Brown was in Washington "admonishioning a republican president" and that "boy camron and his eatonian bed wertters play at being primeminster next week the serious work of goverment is elsewere and thankfully in somebody else hands" as causing 'great mirth' (which means that they are 'laughable').
I remain, sir, without shame - or cause for shame.
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Is Cameron ready? Well no, of course he isn't.
If people think that David "call me Dave" Cameron is going to solve our problems then those people are seriously deluded.
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Max Sceptic.
A good use of words from wha I expect to be a legal mind..........but you failed to win me over................
You know exactly what I meant.........
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Chuck @42
"That's just a scientific fact."
Is it? Please, then, supply the source of this assertion. When and where and by whom was this objective scientific experiment on the Tories conducted?
If you can, then the rest of your post may have more credence.
If, on the other hand, you cannot - or claim that the phrase is just a 'figure of speech' - then all the rest of your opinions and claims should be treated with the cynicism they deserve.
Now, it is obviously a 'scientific fact' that Brown is psychologically flawed:
The proof lies in
1) his appearance (nails bitten to the quick; obsessive/repetitive hand gestures; weird jaw movements)
2) his actions (documented statements of his temper tantrums and phone-throwing)
3) his word (dissembling and outrageous self-delusion ["no more boom and bust"]).
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When Lamont was Chancellor and boy, or rather baby Dave was his financial advisor, he managed to destroy not only our economy, but nearly emptied all our reserves at the BOE.
That was a National problem and NOT a GLOBAL financial disaster that we are facing today.
Whatever boy Dave has to say, he will say it because it sounds nice or maybe palatable for some, but I for one would not vote for a Tory Government again, when it was the same person that destroyed families and people's lives and their jobs in the City and then had to go working as decorators cause boy Dave plunged us into the biggest recession in British history.
When we have 3.6 million unemployed, 13% inflation and 15% interest rates, + no doctors and nurses to care for patients at our then run down Hospitals, then yes, MAYBE I would reconsider!
THERE WERE NO GLOBAL FINANCIAL COLLAPS ON A BIBLICAL SCALE IN THEM DAYS, so who wants a proven incompetent, and pretentious Glossy Magazine model to ruin us again?
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Will we see the whole interviews, NO.
Will the interviews be edited to create an interesting show, YES.
Not worth watching unless it is live.
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NorthernThatcherite @46 wrote:
"A good use of words from wha I expect to be a legal mind.."
You consider me to be a barrister or a lawyer?
That, sir, is a cruel slur!
My attitude to most of the legal profession was be summed up in Henry VI, Part 2.
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I'm not surprised DC has been keeping a low profile. Anything he wants to say is being said by Brown and co already.
I don't know who is advising Brown, if anybody, but it all seems a bit misguided to me. - This is no time for a novice, ie you need a man with a track record. First thing you do is look at the Brown experience, questionable for most, at least in part, just make people with things they are unhappy with look at those things more closely. It just gives emphasis to DC's lack of negative impact, turns being a novice into an advantage. Even the use of the word novice which can be read as 'no vice' is attractive. Labourwoman flounces on stage and says - Thats the sort of man my Mum warned me about - immediately gives the guy a bit more charisma. Kelly, kay ee double el y, says Labour doesnt want to move left, immediately warns everybody Labour is wanting to move left. Negates all of the Blair repositioning of Labour. The problem is with the bankers and the world, you're in your own bubble in a bubble world are you Gordon. Lets major on sorting the world out - just gives the message problems at home are not that important. Labour seem to be in self harm at the moment.
I don't know how anybody could accuse N Robinson of being anti Brown. I couldn't believe how friendly the 'Age of Irresponsibility' blog was, couldn't get less questioning if it tried. I came to the conclusion it was a satirical piece, gave it high marks for that.
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40 - Labour blamed the former government for anything that went wrong for most of their first two terms - possibly why they seem to appear as the opposition now they've been in power 11 years - that's politics, they're both as guilty as each other
38 - it was a council by-election (just to clear that up) in a labour safe seat in east london, during conference week - really representative
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30. At 12:00pm on 27 Sep 2008, sagamix wrote:
Pope at 28
Why so keen on legalised prostitution?
Perhaps Tesco are going to introduce the service into their stores. You know, savers.....buy one get one free..... :)
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Onlywayup @48,
One could, of course, Fisk your post and prove that your points are completely erroneous - but this would take an effort that I'm too lazy to engage in on a Saturday morning, especially as I'm sure that you are not disposed to be convinced by mere truths.
The facts are, however, 'out there' if you care to check an impartial source.
I'll just comment on your sentence: "THERE WERE NO GLOBAL FINANCIAL COLLAPS ON A BIBLICAL SCALE IN THEM DAYS".
Sure, the Financial Situation is awful, but let's not get carried away: It's not 'Biblical' (where are the plague of locusts? The seven years of famine? The rivers of blood?
Let's put things in perspective: things are bad and short-terms prospects are not good and much suffering for individuals is, unfortunately on the cards. But the banking system is still working - you can cash a cheque or use an ATM; we are still using 'money' rather than barter, and - other than higher prices and much uncertainty - life goes on much as ever.
That doesn't mean, however, that we should not place the blame for our current domestic economic shambles squarely where it belongs: on the shoulders of the man who as Chancellor for 10 years presided over a financial regime of irresponsible extended credit and irresponsible borrowing and spending ("Alas, poor Prudence) while claiming to have abolished 'boom and bust.
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Even if it was legal don't think Tesco would want to know, wouldnt fit in the Value, Free range or Organic categories
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I've commented on and given sources before, and if someone can't absorb that at the time I'm not going to indulge their laziness or game playing. I'm not some dick who doesn't know Boris Johnson style trolling when he sees it, so pay attention or take the routine back to the circus.
I note, it doesn't take much to floor the Tories around here even if they do put up a good front. Plus, I think, they're getting scared that their dumb and chummy approach is backfiring. Arguably, it's not this blog that has issues but individual Tories. They need to fix their national and personal politics. I won't hold my breath.
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Rambo 60@15
This shows what Nu Labour has done to the education system in this country.
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Thanks Onlywayup (48) - we do need to keep reminding people that the Tories were incompetent and nearly brought the country's economy to its knees. However smooth or anodyne Dave is, if elected, the party will resort to type. They deconstructed our inherent British sense of moral and social justice and identity ('no such thing as community' - Thatch) and replaced it with worship of self-gratification and the making and keeping of money. Nationally we haven't recovered from that. I admire Gordon Brown for attempting to set a moral standard (secular).
GB and Labour aren't perfect, but I prefer their mix of imperfections (it's watered down Thatcherism after all) to the Tory Boy unadulterated alternative.
I'll watch Panorama with interest. I'll also be watching Nick's coverage of the conference - will he be giving DC the same character assassination which he unerringly dishes out to viewers when 'commenting' on Gordon? I doubt it.
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David Cameron recently held a public meeting at a local school in Devonport.This was advertised in the local paper and e-mail questions were invited from those who couldn't make it.Devonport's current M.P. is Alison Seabeck who was parachuted into a safe seat at the last election at the expense of a very popular and hard-working local council member.Since then she has been conspicuous by her absence,occasionally she'll appear at a local primary school to get her picture in the local paper but to say she's been a massive disappointment is an understatement.I doubt she'd be able to find her way around Devonport,she knows the area as well as her constituents know her.Mr Cameron's meeting largely got a cynical reaction when it was announced but when it was proved to be exactly what he said it would be with locals having their say and even getting into the building in the first place,as many suspected would not be the case,it did him no end of good in a staunchly Labour area.More locals spoke face to face with David Cameron in a few hours than have spoken to Ms Seabeck since she was elected and whatever his background he came across very well.
I'm the kind of person who used to be the lifeblood of Labour,the Labour Party that I've known and supported all my life is dead and the quicker it's buried as well the more I'll like it.
As previously stated Cameron doesn't need to say a lot,just sit back and watch the New Labour experiment implode,the biggest plus he has is that former Labour supporters want Brown and co out more than diehard Tories do.
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Somene needs to rebut the tory bias on this blog so it may as well be me today.
First, the economic woes we are experiencing is not GBs fault it the fault of the captalist free marketers and sub-prime policies of the Bush Administration.
Second Cameron is just a load of wind in a bag, it is easy as chips to be popular admist the biggest economic downturn in generations. He has no policies and no clue as to how to cope with modern britain and at some point he will be found out as lacking strategic vision and practical policies.
One only has to look at their latest spin on racism with their attack on the multicultural society. Is anyone fooled by the code "long term residents" and "recent arrivals" as another other than white and black, I hope the public isnt that stupid.
They also have nothing to offer economically the silence is deafening from their side with only Vince Cable of the Lib Dems offering anything coherent in that arena other than the government that is.
I predict a Neil Kinnock moment for Cameron sometime prior to the next election when the public steps back from the brink realising who and what he is. A hung parliment remains the most likely election result in my view.
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kaybraes@57 - I wonder when Rambo was educated???
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Onlywayup #48
So, one (of many) of the advisors to Norman Lamont is personally, directly and solely responsible for the 'biggest recession in British history'. This despite only being an advisor, and being one of many advisors.
So clearly you have some proof that Cameron was the ONLY person giving whatever advice he gave, and that Lamont said something like 'OK Dave, whatever you say, I couldn't possibly argue with you, or use my own brain to think about your advice first'.
I would dearly love to see this proof. Perhaps you have the minutes of various meetings where Cameron insisted that only his advice was sound, and nobody else's was to be trusted because they were all wrong, and Lamont said, well I disagree with you Dave but we'll do it your way'.
Typical New Labour. Make a statement that is completely uncheckable and repeat it a lot in the hope that it sticks.
Whereas Brown bears no responsibility whatsoever for any of the economic troubles we've had over the past 18 months. Not even for the collapse of our pensions system, even though his advisors told him that it was possible (even likely) that his 5 billion per year raid on the pension funds would cause such a collapse (and yes, there have been actual written statements by advisors at the time detailing what was said).
But no, Gordon can't possibly be at fault, can he?
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Dear straighttalking you say "It still seems to me that the Tories want to go back to the Thatcher era and help the better off but forget the poor. Perhaps this conference will change that, but I won't bet on it."
And your point is?
Why do we have to take it for granted that anybody who has a bit of cash has to give it up so that someone who never bothered at school, or can't get out of bed can have it?
Yes there will always be unfortunate people and they should have some help, I don't think the conservatives will "forget" the poor, but help should not include free computers / holidays / sky TV and cigarettes. It is basic clothes food and warmth. It would seem that for many of the poorer members of society this isn't good enough. They want the latest designer nonsense at somebody else's expense and the tax payer is fed up of it.
The Labour party dropped a bomb at their conference with "free this" and "free that". trying to bribe people is all they know but they are bribing the wrong people. The working classes are fed up of being soaked for layabouts and newcomers with no rights to be here (what the hell is hookyhand doing here?).
What ties to the UK does somalia, nigeria, sudan et al have to the UK when Nepalese soldiers and Zimbabwean farmers with British parents can't get in. I must dig out my atlas because my idea of "the next safe country" is obviously not the same as yours .
The backlash is coming, I would NEVER vote BNP as they go too far, but there is a point where you have to step up to the mark and look after your own before giving it all away.
I ask all of you left-wingers, probably with a bit of cash yourself. If you are well-ish off and have enough for a second car or one or two holidays a year, maybe you own your own home. So a group of poor people knock on YOUR door and say we have no Sky, no fags and no PC. would you give them what they want out of your cash. No I thought not. So why are you asking us to give it to them out of ours?
Champagne socialists (politicians?) are the worst of the breed. As they are fairly secure from the mayhem that their government is causing. Just like high court judges have no concept of what it means to actually live in the kind of areas where street thugs come from.
So yes, give some help but not until all of your own are taken care of first. How can you justify health tourism or people fresh into the UK getting any healthcare / housing for free whilst your mum or your gran is on a waiting list to get on the waiting list for the main surgery list.
Angry and squeezed and the pips are squeaking...
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Charles
Every time you are asked to substantiate one of your more bizarre statements, your reply is always along the lines of "I've answered this before you lazy idiot, now leave me alone I've got more important things to do than bother with you".
Now why don't you humour us for once.
Surely a man such as you who, according to your own posts, is partly responsible for setting the agenda, has been noticing the 'spooky' way that words and phrases from your posts have started being heard from politicians, has personally foreseen every major development in computer gaming for the last several years, surely you are organised enough to have a couple of links saved that could direct us to this "SCIENTIFIC FACT" that "The Tories just haven't had long enough or been tested hard enough to have changed."
Now I could be wrong, but my opinion is that you will either not answer this at all, or you will just launch into another burst of flowery language in the hope of seeming enlightened and intelligent without actually answering the point, but please don't conform to type. Prove me wrong. Give us the evidence of this Scientific Fact and I promise if it stacks up I will apologise humbly and profusely.
Over to you.
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60# SotonBlogger
I can sum your blog up in one word Desperation.
59# Devonportdave
Whilst I cannot comment on the situation in Devonport, I live in the NW, I identify with your later comment:
Alison Seabeck, MP for Plymouth Devonport with a 19.29% majority. I presume a swing to the Tories of 10% would be your Portillo moment. My Portillo moment would be someone at the top. No prizes for guessing who!
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Cameron can be very good at presentatation, credits to him.
However, when the election comes, I bet (yes, not believe, but bet), Brown will be triumph again.
I agree, its not smooth sailing, particularly in the last few months. But in the last 10 years, the economy had been stable, exept the last few months. The unemployment rate was pretty low, the housing market and affordablity was booming.
Now, the economy is going through a correction, which cannot be avoided. It can't keep going up forever!
You can discredit Brown, and say he had nothing to do with any of this economic stability. Its your wish.
About Cameron, talking about problems is one thing. If talking/complaining about something is the qualification, then I can come up with million Camerons!
But talking about solution? errrr.....not many can come up with plans and solutions!
I would like to see how Cameron will handle the economy, whats his solution for the problems rather than him posing nicely for an advert or cycling (through red signal) in London.
The show time is over Mr.Cameron. Its time for action.
How about talking about solutions, for a change ah?
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Charles_E_Hardwidge @56 wrote:
All sound and fury signifying nothing.
Which one of us is right and which one wrong will be decided in the next General Election.
I say 'Bring it on!'.
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#60 - SotonBlogger
I agree that it is a dangerous folly to blame the world economic downturn on GB. However, as I have said before, it would be equally foolish to allow the undoubted seriousness of the situation to become a smokescreen to conceal the manifest failings of this government over a whole range of policy.
As regards your comments about immigration policy, the distinction between long term residents and newly arrived has nothing to do with colour. It has everything to do with people who enjoy the privileges and responsibilities of citizenship by virtue of being native born and payment by way of NI contributions which gives them that entitlement. Many such people are ethnic afro-carribean and asian.
By suggesting otherwise, you fall into the trap of 'reverse racism' - creating a colour issue where there simply isn't one. That is not what the Tories mean and you know it. If you are worried about racial issues in the UK, you should be saving your criticism for BNP. Racism has moved on from mainstream politics to the lunatic fringe which is where it belongs. It would be a grave mistake to bring it back into play.
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I agree that if the Conservatives win the next election, they will have any difficulties to face, particularly regarding the economy. Unlike Labour in 1997, the new Government will not find an economy in good shape. Difficult decisions will have to be taken, particularly in respect of Government expenditure, which is clearly out of control.
I hope David Cameron will not be afraid to take these decisions, even if, in the short term, it could make him unpopular.
Come what may, I hope the next Conservative Government will not make the same mistakes as Ted Heath's Government did during their time in power from 1970 to 1974!
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Well Nick another year another curtain closure on the Brown bounce sale at the shopping mall.
This year the gloss and razzmatazz did not even last until the closing event. Next year will be the conference cruncher - NuLabour at the last chance saloon 2009.
In the meantime we still have a number of stocking fillers.
Glenrothes
The VED increases
The European Elections
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And no doubt the BBC will be on full alert to spin, sneer and try and smear the Tories with what happened decades ago.
Face it, the 'project' has sunk without trace and, apart from those on benefit, we all want to see the back of Clown and the rest of NuLabour swept away.
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to sotonblogger #60
Someone explained left-wing tactics elsewhere on this blog much better than I could but you are a perfect example.
Cries of racism...sexism... you name it lets stifle debate by chucking these words around. Anyone disagrees then we will smear them, rather like an 80 year old lady stuck in a corridor at a hospital, how dare she complain lets call her a racist. And don't even start me on Dr. David Kelly.
So whilst multiculturalism "seems" to be a failure with even Trevor Philips coming out against it. It still will not stop you or your ilk using it to your own ends.
Everything that you accuse the Conservatives of, the left wing would do in spades if the could.
Burying bad news ....that must have been a tory tactic. Cameron was somewhere around at the time of the ERM so it is a tory disaster waiting to happen. But GB with his hand firmly on the tiller of the titanic, well it's nothing to do with him (Gold, pensions etc) it is still someone else's (the tories?) fault.
Well Socialism is firmly kicked into the long grass, as it will at the next election, I will be more than happy to remove your rose coloured glasses and BOTH chips off your shoulder.
Personally I do hope GB "The Right man" is still in charge of Labour at the next election. As it will make labour unelectable for decades. Scotland is gone and England hates you and everything you stand for. But then you also hate England so all's fair.
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#56 - Charles_E_Hardwidge
"Whatever boy Dave has to say, he will say it because it sounds nice or maybe palatable for some . . . "
Charles,
You promote yourself as the voice of sweet reason then insult people you don't agree with by giving them stupid monikers like "boy Dave". You really must make up your mind. You cannot be surprised at being christened Hogwash if you are going to do the same thing yourself, can you?
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Dont think you should underestimate DC. He has so much to hit at and its not hard to be more connected to the voters than Gordon Brown. The conservatives are coming across as being confident, talking about repairwork.
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To those few who keep popping up saying David Cameron has no policies I would point them in the direction of www.conservatives.com where they will find a very
long list.
Although I expect Brown et al have already got plans to copy them pdq.
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I see David Cameron has announced a new initiative about greater regulatory powers for the BOE to be presented by George Osborne at the Tory conference on Monday. Doesn't Johnny-Come-Lately Cameron know that the government have already prepared a Banking Reform Bill, giving the BOE these extended powers. It is to be presented to Parliament in October. When are the Tories going to have an original idea instead of borrowing policy from Labour and presenting it as their own? Write 100 times, Must do better!
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66 - I hope you got at least 6/1 then
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#72
Gold ? Pensions ? Are you *really* trying to argue pension policy and/or selling a portion of our gold reserves has even the slighest bearing on our current economic issues ?
I see these two particular tory sacred cows raised on this blog time and time again, it may annoy the older amongst us but it isnt relevant to our overall economic plight.
I have never and will never fall into the trap of blaming thatcher et all for our current issues. As I stated in my post our current financial problems can be lain at the door of George-W and his neo-cons and their clumsy attempts to reenact thatchers home owning democracy concept in main street america.
I think I begin to realise why the right wingers on this blog bleat about pensions and gold and so forth, it is becuase they themselves and their glorious leader Dave have no solution to our economic problems and they are running scared, much easier to point and holler about nasty gordon and hope noone notices their own lack of ideas.
PS. I knew you would raise trevor phillips as your smokescreen on the race issue. He is a coconut plain and simple and should be ashamed of himself. Doesnt mean the tory policy isnt still racist at its core.
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I love these blogs as they attract a well educated selection from all political parties. Usually the 'dead giveaway' as to their party is the spelling and grammar used in their post. I am looking forward to the interviews with DC which I too am sure Brown would not be prepared to do. I think the BBC and Sky should not show any Labour MP's during the tory conference week and only have pro tory pundits/paper reviewers as they totally barred any conservatives from participating in anything during Labours conference week; the public could then have a balanced comparison.
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Looking forward to it.
I really don't think that Cameron's background can do him harm. Labour will concentrate on his lack of experience and any flaws in the Tories policies - including any successful policies they want to remind people of.
If anyone attacks Cameron's background, all he has to do is say something like "this is my background, this is who I am, these are the policies that I stand for" etc... I think that would be a reasonable reply and would work.
The lack of experience is more interesting as many of the bloggers have said "who cares, he can't be any worse". That's an answer if you think a new leader will not affect your current life. What if you believed that things would get worse with a new leader? You wouldn't vote for him then.
Things are reputedly going to get worse leading up to the election. So problems coming that both sides need to exploit could be:
1. Do govt support irresponsible banks and/or the homeowners at risk? What about the responsible employees at those banks?
2. Do govt support high-profit energy providers and/or the public paying high bills? If those high profits are to be used for building new power stations meaning cheaper future energy, how will that be shown?
3. Do govt increase transport costs and can they show return on those costs?
4. Do govt increase, decrease or do nothing with tax (direct and indirect) over next 2 years?
5. War or terrorism. A disastrous campaign or incident can turn people against the govt.
6. As yet unknown gaffs or scandals
Try not to read left/right leanings in this post as I've tried to be independant.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#38 - redonthebed
Disagree with me by all means, but at least get the quote right!
You typed ?this blog represents the views of the country?
I wrote: You have only to read this and other blogs to get the mood in the country.
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#38 - redonthebed
Oh! and....
Plumstead was a local by-election. Rather different than the national issues under discussion here.
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The economy was in a better state in 1997? ha ha ha ha!
We had a higher % of National Debt vis-a'-vis GDP. We had a run down Health Service. Run down train service, you name it, and it was crap. All this besides 3.5 unemployed + the least average pay in western Europe.
We also had the highest Company Tax regime and other business taxes that Labour brought down to a lower level then our EU counterparts.
A stronger economy my bum. How dare some of you say that we had a roof on our heads in 1997, when we had to wait a year for a by-pass operation, when we had to wait for 3 years for a cataract operation and when our schools were rotting and literally falling on our children's heads.
Lies and deceit is what we are now getting from the Tory Party, that is now posing as the Party of the poor. Ha ha ha!
90% of the present financial problems are due to the Tories deregulating the Financial Sector, but no independent BOE, because they want to manipulate the Interest Rates to their advantage 6 months before an election and throw the country into a recession after that same election. They managed to do that 3 times in 17 years.
Now who was/is boy Dave?
Career
2001 - MP for Witney
1994-2001 Director of Corporate Affairs, Carlton Communications Plc
1993-1994 Special Advisor to the Home Secretary
1992-1993 Special Advisor to the Chancellor of the Exchequer
1988-1992 Conservative Research Department, Head of the Political Section
Ooops, there it is: SPECIAL ADVISOR TO THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER 1992-1993. He wasn't just an advisor, but SPECIAL ADVISOR and if one recalls the video shown by Nick, one would see boy Dave running and hiding from the cameras as he was the culprit to what was happening at the time.
David Cameron also wanted to dispose of Sterling and join the Euro, but when the extreme right in the party realised what this man was up to, they gave him a big kick in the bum and placed him in limbo!
Now that limbo is no more, boy Dave is out to show us that he can teach the world how to get out of the present GLOBAL financial problem.
If boy Dave DITHERED to get Sterling out of the ERM in 1992, how can one trust this incompetent pretentious person?
The present GLOBAL FINANCIAL PROBLEMS were last seen in the 1930s and not in 1992.
As an ex Tory, I DO NOT WANT A PRETENSIOUS FINANCIAL ADVISOR AS MY PM! Did I vote Labour? - NO I did not - but if boy Dave is still at the helm, at he next election, I would make sure that he is not elected as my PM.
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In 1998 Crash Gordon was unveiling his crisis plan
10 years on:
In 2008 Downing St. admitted they knew about the Housing Bubble but decided to run with it!
The above two items speak volumes. Pity he did not practice what he preached at home starting 10 years ago. Crash Gordon since he became PM has been led by events, many of them of his own making.
And you want this guy at the tiller!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
So, on the day that Gordon Brown went Stalin-like to project the power of the Duma to another far-flung corner of his great Soviet David Cameron did the same.
And while Gordon Brown was gobbing off prepared reams of moonshine at hand-picked Labour faithful masquerading as 'ordinary people asking questions' David Cameron was actually answering ordinary people's questions.
Oooooh, but that's smooth. That comfortably over-trumps Gordon's rigged 'meet-the-people'. It trumps it in the minds of the politically interested folk who (like me) are becoming increasingly alarmed with the increasingly demented behaviour of the Maximum Leader but, more importantly, it will be noted by the journalists and broadcasters.
Next time (or indeed any time) there's the choice of a genuine Cameron interview or another rigged I-approve-the-questions-in-advance-and-then-ignore-them-anyway-to-give-you-my-latest-fictional-tractor-production-statistics 'interview' with Gordon 'Crash' Brown then who do you think will be on TV or filling the column inches.
Not Gordon that's for sure. He's going to be shunned. Wiped from the TV screen. His dissembling unreported.
Good.
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82 - jonties
i don't know if anything on the internet can be representative of the country - i can't imagine there's a huge amount of old folks or the middle-aged 9-5ers commenting on BBC blogs - admittedly the BBC is one of the biggest places for right wingers i've seen and it's as mainstream as you get but the net is dominated by young trendy people, who have little impact on the electoral process
not saying the blog is on disagreement with the general feeling, but i wouldn't take that as an indicator
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Post 20 maxsceptic
Post 57 kaybraes
Post 61 Minisouris
Joint winners of the intellectual snob award!
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Forget all the statistical trading to prove your points. Figures can be manipulated to prove anything.
The fact is Crash Gordon claimed he alone had abolished boom and bust. He didn't. He created a boom which created a bust!
He claimed he was financial prudence personified. It was a complete con-trick. We shall all pay very dearly for years to come because of his prolifigacy.
He failed to match his actions with his words. He has been found out.
He has lost the trust of the people.
Like many hundreds of thousands of people he too will lose his job either sooner or later............but the difference is he will DESERVE to lose it................everyone else doesn't!
It is a scandal that he is still in power.
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SotonBlogger @78 wrote:
"PS. I knew you would raise trevor phillips as your smokescreen on the race issue. He is a coconut plain and simple and should be ashamed of himself. Doesnt mean the tory policy isnt still racist at its core."
My original response @86 has been censored by the powers that be (the truth hurts, I guess).
I shall try again:
Obviously anyone who disagrees with the race-relations industry is by definition a 'racist'.
I find it amusing that one can call Phillips a 'coconut' (i.e. brown on the outside, white inside) - and yet make the absolutely racist assumption that blacks should vote 'en masse' for a party (i.e. for Nu Labour) due to the colour of their skin, rather than according to their individual beliefs and convictions.
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NorthernThatcherite @89
Where and when can I pick it up?
(One does so hope that it is a black tie affair).
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Energy Companies have tied the cost of energy to that of oil. Energy prices to the consumer are still increasing at an alarming rate, yet wholesale oil prices have dropped by nearly 40 per cent since July and the wholesale cost of the petrol and diesel is down 30 per cent.
Price reductions in the price of oil have not been reflected in the price of energy or oil at the pumps. I wonder could that malaise be in anyway connected with the current strength of the pound sterling.
We used our gold reserves to prop up the Euro. In hindsight, perhaps it would have been more beneficial to British people had we used that gold now, to prop up the current state of the pound.
Last year the energy Companies hiked their dividends by 19%.
Appears the banks and financial institutions are not the only groups that are creaming the British public.
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61. MinnieSouris
kaybraes@57 - I wonder when Rambo was educated???
Correction, my dear MinnieSouris,
The word "when" should be replaced with "if"
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Looking forward to a week of unquestioning coverage of the Tory Party conference by the BBC, with no oppositon politicians to be seen or heard anywhere, just like we suffered last week with the BBC love-in for Gordon.
Is that a whole squadron of pigs I see flying past. I expect Panorama to be an attempted hatchet job with very careful editing to accord with the BBC's political leanings.
I hope you did not use the Question Time team to chose the five uncommited electors. They never seem to get any balance in the audience!
Can you confirm whether their was an instruction not to mention the level of Tory lead in the "unimportant" polls which suddenly seem important with Gordon's post conference ,hopefully dead cat, bounce.
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#91
When did I say anything about how black people should vote ?
I didnt and nor do I intend too. Black people should vote according to their circumstances and beliefs.
I am saying that the recently expressed views on multi-culturism from the tory home affairs spokesman are a disgrace although consistent with historical beliefs expressed both nationally and too me personally on the doorsteps by tory activists.
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I'm looking forward to the conference. This is the only conference which will have a bearing on the future policy of the country. The Labour party wil be destroyed at the next general election and the Lib Dems will remain an irrelevance. I am interested at what they will say on the economy but also on social breakdown. I think that the governing party needs to get a grip on this country and I am hoping that they will use the fact that they are way ahead in the polls to outline some strategies that pull this country back into line and put an end to the benefit culture rather than pandering to the softies.
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95# 60022Mallard
Good post.
A4 - 126mph takes me back 40+ years
As to the conference, after last year, I am sure that Duff Gordon will try to spike it, one way or another.
That is the way the NuLabour numpties operate.
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More recollections from the Tory years of wealth and a solid roof on our head, and all the BILLIONS going into the Tory Government coffers, after privatising the north sea oil, the power generation etc.
BBC economics editor ? Evan Davis says:
The painful parliaments are those where we have to reassess our whole view of the strength of the economy.
For example, the problem in 1992 derived not from a slowing economy. It derived from the fact that by 1992 we realised the late 1980s boom had been a temporary aberration, and not the permanent turnaround we had thought.
Once we sat down it became clear that the rise in government borrowing was not a blip caused by a recession; it was STRUCTURAL.
The economy was simply not as strong as we had been told for several years and consequently it would never generate as much tax as we needed.
So taxes had to be raised - and spending, cut back.
More later in the week.
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89. NorthernThatcherite
Dam, Dam, Dam,
Another award missed because of a day off with the kids.
Hail to the victors valiant.
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My Week: Sarah Brown
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There was a truly unusual occurrence on Radio 4's Beyond Westminster this morning: A "national" BBC political programme that actually discussed the possibility of NuLab losing Glenrothes and the next general election in realistic terms. As a politics junkie, I subscribe to the podcast, but am often disappointed. Today, though, those us of not enamoured with the prospect of "Duff" Gordon going on and on were in for a treat. Well worth a "listen again".
Could Auntie be starting to hedge her bets?
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#101 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
LOL and sad but probably true
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One question you should have asked the Boy Wonder, that i suspect didn't occur to the chosen 5, How does Cameron expect to govern when outside of England his party barely touches 30% in Opinion Polls?
In Scotland, they have flatlined to behind 25%, and struggle to finish behind the Lib Dems. Not really a proud boast for "The Next Government", and one which does not bode well for the union.
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102# Brownedov
Welcome back Brownov.
I listened to the radio broadcast, we live in interesting times.
Did you read the following article; as the saying goes, here is one I prepared earlier,
Oh dear NuLabour, as I predicted earlier, are back in the Brown quagmire, and so soon.
Crash Gordons speech has an effect on his core voters.
unfortunately its not the one he wanted.
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#104 GRhino
"How does Cameron expect to govern when outside of England his party barely touches 30% in Opinion Polls? ... In Scotland, they have flatlined to behind 25%, and struggle to finish behind the Lib Dems."
Yes, wonderful news, isn't it! At long last we might even have a government that can't ride roughshod over us without a majority of the electorate on its side. They might even have to finish the devolution which NuLab caghandedly began but would not complete knowing they had no majority in England.
We'll certainly get to find out whether Cameron wants to be the last PM of the UK and first PM of England or whether he really is a unionist at all.
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104# GRhino
As I said in my previous blog, we live in interesting times.
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SotonBlogger @91asks:
"When did I say anything about how black people should vote ?"
You didn't actually say it - but implied it.
You call Trevor Phillips as a traitor ('coconut') because he dares to question the PC view of multiculturalism espoused for decades by Labour and the Left.
How can, then, in the logic of your views, Blacks not voting for Labour or the Left be anything but a betrayal?
Do think through carefully the consequences of what you write before you post your comments.
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#79
I'm sure our friends from Conservative Central Office on here would agree the absence of the Government-in-waiting from the airwaves last week was quite deliberate.
They believe (wrongly in my view) that their best hopes of winning the election lie in Brown continuing as PM, so they wanted him to do well this week (so they can crush him next week).
They also don't really have any answers to the world economic crisis. Messages of deregulation and the need for Government to not interfere (or tax) in banker's renumeration do not sit well with the current problems caused by not enough regulation and the failures of banker's incentive structures.
They look to Labour for the answers to these questions (see the re-announcement of what Darling said last Monday by Cameron today - going back on their views of last year).
They will not be looking for the radical refom to banker's pay and will continue to paint attempts to do so as Brown moving to his old Labour, left-wing base and as the 'politics of envy'. Even when it is abundantly clear that the pay policies of financial institutions have failed their own investment. Corporate governance is failing to ensure sound decisions are made. The billions of pounds of bonuses for bankers to buy fast cars, mansions and aeroplanes is having to be paid for by taxpayers.
This is why they have stayed quiet. They have plenty of allies in the press who did their talking for them anyway.
I'm looking forward to Boris's speech next week. Let's see how well Cameron does in hiding their 'million-vote mandate' man (and his inconvenient views about London being safe and the 'broken society' Cameron likes to talk about being "piffle") from the Conference.
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108# MaxSceptic
I thought Duff Brown was turning away from failed multiculturalism and had started to bang the drum of Britishness.
Looks like some of the numpties in his party have not kept up!
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#105 Roll_On_2010
Hello again. Interesting times, indeed.
Thanks for the link - proof indeed of how far away Nulab is from the Labour Party many Scots thought they voted for.
The whole thing strangely reminds me of Oscar Wilde's: "One would have to have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell without laughing."
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Zoom....Zoom....
Tripe....Tripe....and double tripe
The neo/cons are Zooming!
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109# balhamu
Yep I remember NuLabour pre 1997 banging on about fat cats and how they would neuter them once in power.
Hey I was one of those shovelling that tosh for them on the doorstep.
When they came to power they damn well joined them. Lets not forget that inequality in wealth is the widest its been for 40 years.
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I thought I would post something a numpty would say but I see Derek beat me to it !!
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111# Brownedov
As Bob Dylan wrote and sang - The times they are a changing.
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re: 31 dhwilkinson
"...Why do I pay so much tax? Which is really saying 'I'm considerably richer than you..."
You've got it the wrong way around; proportionally people on lower incomes pay massively more tax (as a proportion of their income) than rich people. The poorer you are the more brown takes away from you as a proportion of your wages.
It's very odd; I can't work out if he does it because he doesn't understand how badly regressive taxes hurt poorer people, or if he's just doing it because he's twisted and enjoys making poor people's life a misery. I suspect it's a combination of both.
Anyway, the upshot is that under brown the regressive nature of taxes has gone through the roof; he's done everything he can to hurt people on low incomes, and then gets small specific sections of those people to fill in reams of forms and try to beg for some of the money back.
If you're single and have no kids and are on a low/middle income then you're in serious trouble thanks to brown.
Doubling the rate for the poorest people didn't help either.
(and yes, he doubled the 10% rate of the poorest people to 20%, he definitely did *not* abolish it; he doubled it; can you hear this bbc? he DOUBLED it; please remember that next time you report on it being "scrapped")
I personally hope the tories even this all up a bit by making taxes less regressive; it can easily be done; if they do the right thing then they can rejig things slightly to make the whole system infinitely fairer than it is under brown. If they really wanted to they could simply take people under a certain income out of the tax/tax-credit system completely and free-up a humungous admin cost; I hope they're bold on this front; they can make a massive difference at virtually no cost to the economy if they want to.
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So young "DAVE" to lead the charge......
more like a "James Brudenell" charge....
Can we expect another leadership challenge after the conference.........
The light tory brigade........
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#117 derekbarker
Good analogy, Mr Troll, with "Duff" (aka McAvity) Gordon playing the part of Lord Lucan as usual, I suppose.
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Baron von Heseltine, to bring a touch of arboretum to the tories conference.... he simply believes trees are more important than humans.....might have a case....when you get a glimpse of that conservative dull bunch.
............................................................................................................................................
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117# derekbarker
Can we expect another leadership challenge after the conference
Naw reckon that comes when the NuLabour numpties realise that Crash Gordon is just that - Crash Gordon!
Reckon Glenrothes could be the touchpaper.
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Hello Browndov,
The tories are very light up front, Dave and Osborne at the helm, not much to say yes to,
lots to say No to..............
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Derek I liked you better at 112#
Stick with it kid you may eventually get there, wherever there is!
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#113 "Let's not forget that inequality in wealth is the widest its been for 40 years"
Where are your stats for that?
Most recent data I can find from HMRC suggest the Gini coefficient for marketable wealth (i.e. % of wealth that will need to change hands if we were to redistribute to make everyone have exactly the same) was 67% in 2003 versus 69% in 1997.
While no more recent statistics are available, this doesn't look like a rise to me. I could be wrong though - as I said, the data is 5 years out of date and inequalities have quite possibly increased since then.
Income inequality is slightly down (though admittedly not enough, but you expect that in periods of economic growth).
Child poverty is undoubtedly down. Pensioner poverty (after housing costs) is also down significantly.
I think Labour have done as much as they perceived they could get away with while keeping the trust of "Middle England" and so remaining in power. And they have done a lot more than if they had been on the opposition benches that's for sure.
I think the trends would have been quite different if the Conservatives were in power. Redistribution is the opposite of what they stand for. We'll see this from 2010-2020.
The Conservatives want to reform the tax system to shift to more indirect taxes (or stealth taxes as they are called when the current Government raises them) and away from income taxation and wealth taxation.
They want to move from the welfare state to releasing the power of (Dickensian) philanthropy.
They would abolish tax credits and the minimum wage if only they could.
There's only one party with a real commitment to reducing poverty. It ain't Dave's lot.
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#115 Roll_On_2010
Let's hope so - one of my favourite Dylan songs - I have 3 different recordings of it.
My personal favourite is the acoustic version of Subterranean Homesick Blues, but your post prompts me to wonder which of his tracks would be appropriate for "Duff" Gordon. Everything Is Broken probably fits the bills best, although if next week goes well for the Tories, Tangled Up In Blue might be just the thing. Given his propensity to dither, Blowin' In The Wind would certainly be apposite. During the Bliar years, I always thought All Along The Watchtower was particularly appropriate for the dynamic duo, with Bliar as the "Jokerman" to Gordon's "Thief".
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PS to my #124
Tweedle Dee & Tweedle Dum also works well for the Bliar years.
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Lord Tebbit to make an appearance.
Wont be a Llyod george nor a Henry Bannerman moment.
Tebbit is likely to put the boot right into the liberal movement( he had a track record for disbanding liberalism)
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PPS to my #124
On 2nd thoughts, perhaps Duff's theme tune should be Going, Going, Gone.
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125# Brownedov
You cant beat the old classics Brown - Nowhere man, the Beatles
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Barry McGuire - The Eve of Destruction!
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#121 derekbarker
"The tories are very light up front, Dave and Osborne at the helm, not much to say yes to, lots to say No to"
True, but as I've said before, given our "quaint" 1872 plurality voting system I'd vote for them every time if I thought they had the best chance of beating NuLab in any particular constituency, on the basis that the Tories are less right-wing and authoritarian.
Should the UK ever get democracy in my lifetime, I'd probably always vote Liberal.
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109. balhamu
Its much simpler than all that.
In the UK Governments loose elections, the opposition never wins them.
Brown and Nu Labour are roudly beaten without Cameron really having to do a thing.
Brown continues to do so badly, people will take anything else. Many just want to punish him.
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Interesting the number of anti-cameron postings from people who have never posted to this blog before...
Also intesting the number of times they say that anti-brown postings are a put up job.
Finally, interesting the number of pro-brown comments that contain no individualised content -- that read like they could have be posted by anyone from a standard list of ideas.
Unfortunately these blog-jackers don't realise that blog such comments don't change peoples minds - they are filtered out like 'banner ads' and the such.
Brown is going down, and I take some pleasure in seeing the labour party sink more into debt trying to save him.
The labour party have lumbered me and my kids (and probably any grand-children) with massive national debt - used to pay lazy time wasters to do un-necessary jobs at public (ie. taxpayer) expense in return for their vote - it is good to see that it isn't personal, labour are just as poor at managing their own internal finances.
Best posting I read today...
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_hannan/blog/2008/09/27/state_schools_cost_just_as_much_as_independent_ones
State education - we pay for caviar and get green-ham.
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re: 123 balhamu
Is income inequality even relevant? Surely if everyone gets, say, 20% richer, then that means that income inequality has actually grown, even though the poorest are now 20% richer than they were before.
By definition, as a country gets richer, the inequality gap will always grow, even when everyone gets richer, it's just a mathematical thing surely?
Even if the poor get, say, 30% richer and the rich get, say, 10% richer, then the inequality gap will still be seen to grow (depending on the number of rich people and their income).
The only way to stop the inequality gap widening would be to physically take away the money of all the people who run successful companies and who employ people, and then dish that out to all the low income earners. And if you do that then nobody'll be left to run the companies, so then there's no jobs, and then nobody has any income so everyone's then destitute.
Surely the trick is, rather than hammer people doing well due to their own efforts, to instead try and help the people who are not doing so well by creating an economy which rewards effort but which also has a safety net for those unable to make that effort.
For example, say I start my own company, work all the hours I can for years on end, put my heart and soul into it, and end up with a successful company which employs loads of people. Should the government then come along and say "we're taking all your hard-earned money way from you and giving it to your staff instead" ?
My retort to that would be: "I worked very hard for my money for many years and I pay my staff well; if I hadn't worked so hard then they wouldn't have a job. if they do well in their job then I progress them and they earn more. If they want they can start their own company and make as much money as I do. It's their choice."
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131# CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
I have said that repeatedly over the six months or so.
One of the things that has amazed me is the fact that Duff Gordon has sustained his impending doom for so long. I remember a journalist writing, 7 or 8 months ago, the Tories cant sustain their lead for long?
The answer as you quite rightly put it - they don?t need to Brown is achieving that goal on his own!
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117. derekbarker
"So young "DAVE" to lead the charge......
more like a "James Brudenell" charge....
Can we expect another leadership challenge after the conference.........
The light tory brigade........"
Get used to it Derek... ..
your lot have lost the plot, lost our gold reserves, lost the public's confidence, and lost the next general few elections.....
and it is because Labour has proved inept, incompetant, and downright corrupt in it's dealings (PFI accounting Enron style) and so many Labour MPs have the same blinkered, bigoted vindictive views as displayed by you and your few other comrades.
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#128 Roll_On_2010
If you're really in to golden oldies, how about Dylan's rendition of Rock, Salt And Nails from the Basement Tapes?
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French hold out against credit crunch
When I read the above I was really speechless. French household debt running at 47%, in Britain over twice that. You can certainly see where Browns economic bubble comes from.
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#133
"If everyone gets 20% richer then that means that income inequality has grown"
That's wrong. In the situation you describe, income inequality is constant, and would be measured that may by the statistics.
"As a country gets richer the inequality gap will grow"
Again, that's wrong. It depends on whether higher earners do better than lower earners.
"Even if the poor get 30% richer and the rich get 10% richer, inequality will grow"
No. That is a situation where inequality would decrease. Think about it.
RE the rest of your post. You are entitled to your opinion .
How much re-distribution should we have? And what policies should we have to implement your view?
What about a poll tax - tax based on personal characteristics rather than income. Stops you being punished for wanting to work hard.
Abolish the welfare state to provide the incentives for people to actually work.
Abolish sickness benefit - they're all lazy malingers anyway.
Abolish the minimum wage and regulation on business - both massive burdens and stopping your hard work bearing fruit.
Abolish inheritance tax - you should be able to pass on the benefits of your hard work to your children, not the children of the feckles.
Abolish the NHS and state-funded education - why should your hard work pay for the education and health of the lazy and feckless?
I look forward to these things being in the Conservative manifesto.
[I'm not seriously suggesting you believe this. Just exploring if you think inequality is not high enough, and what changes you think should be made to reward you properly for your hard work :) ]
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136# Brownedov
Good one it brings back bygone memories and certainly fits the bill.
For the public it could be - Wont get fooled again (The Who) or maybe The Last Time (The Stones).
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#135
A silent howl from the wolf.....
Did anyone hear that!
Corruption......Hmmmmm
Jonathan Aitken or Lord Archer....you choose.....
Change for Change sake......for god sake!
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Did anyone read this article.
This part got me:
Staff will also be offered the chance to "talk to a trained adviser about anything that concerns them - from work issues to financial problems".
As long as they don?t mention those damn nomination papers!
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#137
I think average debt is largely at a high level in England versus France because of the higher rate of home ownership (and so mortgage debt) in this country, and the higher price of houses (land is scarcer due to our strict planning laws and the fact France is half as dense).
In France, around 55% of people own their own homes, versus 70% in the UK.
It would be interesting to see debt figures excluding mortgage debt.
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When all the major economies are trying to introduce more regulation into their banking systems.
Wait for it........YES.....Little Cameron has released his take on the gobal down-turn today (front page of this site) Cameron is running scared of the situation and wants to give banks more powers...he doesn't want to deal with the serious issues, he just wants to pass the buck........
Typical tory bottle neck....politics........
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140# derekbarker
Derek this one may interest you, its newer.
Glass houses sounds appropriate!
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the-real-truth@132 questions the recent appearance of 'anti-Cameron' posts on this blog. I'm a recent contributor to this blog, so he might be referring to me. I've started blogging here because I was so dismayed by reading the smug and aggressive right wing blogs on this site. These bloggers don't seem to have the wit to research or remember clearly what the Thatcher era did to the people of this country, replacing morality with selfishness. So be prepared, my greedy friends - integrity and good judgement will out - you are just beginning to notice that we're here, that's all.
ps Glenrothes - we can't really assess Labour's future by results in the Scottish seats because the Scots are becoming an increasingly confident and empowered region/nation and yearn for independence, not from the Labour party but from the disinterest of Westminster.
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104. GRhino:
One question you should have asked the Boy Wonder, that i suspect didn't occur to the chosen 5, How does Cameron expect to govern when outside of England his party barely touches 30% in Opinion Polls?
In Scotland, they have flatlined to behind 25%, and struggle to finish behind the Lib Dems. Not really a proud boast for "The Next Government", and one which does not bode well for the union.
-----
So? take a look at an electoral map - labour seats in the south (outside of london) can be counted on a single hand - a vast swathe of blue occupies that rather populous area - which has far more people than scotland
fact is labour have a mass of seats across the north west, north east, central scotland and south wales, the tories are a bit more spread out but mostly occupy a massive great chunk of england from the middle down - are they any less representative? why do scotland have to have special treatment while most of the english have had to have it that way for years?
you're right though, it's not good news for the union, but i don't regard either option as less representative than the other, it's just a flawed electoral system
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Last 16 days have been out of touch, by design. Come back and wow, the world is collapsing all around. Decided that my old man was right " only worry about what you can influence directly" no money in the piggy bank to bail it so leave it up to the politicians.
Begs question should we do away with news and just get on living our lives in glorious bliss.
Disappointed that there is 3 weeks since your filming, need to be more on top of the game.
Yes nice to see DC in action with "real " people but if it was earth shattering you would have gone live on the 9Th
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re: 138 balhamu
What would I do? I'd keep it incredibly simple; I'd treble the basic tax allowance (ie the amount you can earn before paying any tax) for everybody no matter what their situation, and then adjust the thresholds/rates above that to compensate for it.
I'd also bin national insurance and move the corresponding costs directly into income tax instead.
I'd also merge the tax credit system with the rest of the inland revenue so that people only have to fill out a single form when submitting their taxes/claims.
As far as I can see, all of that can be done without effecting the amount of money that the government receives, as long as their maths is right. But it'd have monumental savings implications on the public purse, which can then be used to help pay off national debt or decrease taxes (or if you're a labour supporter, use it to increase public spending without any reform in the public services).
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re: 143 derekbarker
No, he said he wants to give the bank of england more power, not the banks.
ie he wants to increase regulation, not bin it.
I might be wrong, but I thought that regulation was originally the job of the bank of england, but that brown took that job away from them and that's why we're now in this mess.
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#144
Roll-on 2010
Glass houses......inappropriate....
If there is a custodial sentence...then maybe? appropriate.
What about that Derek Conway..his son done very nicely........conservatives..eh.....
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re: 138 balhamu
What would the inequality be in this instance?....
In 2008:
Mr x earns 10
Mr y earns 1000
In 2009:
Mr x earns 50
Mr y earns 10,000
Mr x has increased his income by a factor of 5.
Mr y has increased his income by a factor of 10.
Both are richer than before.
Despite the fact that Mr x is 5 times richer than before, the inequality gap has still widened, yes?
If so, should Mr y pass some of his hard-earned cash to Mr x?
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#149
You seem to be all over the place tonight with facts and figs.......
He wants the bank of England to have responsibilities for any failed banks.
Look, the reason for the global down-turn is greedy capitalist bankers(not the government) who have carelessly sold mortgages for the fast buck..spivs and divs and all that lot played their part to.......
come on.....call it like it is.....stop just making it up....
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re: 152 derekbarker
The global downturn was caused by the banks who took advantage of a lack of regulation by the uk/usa governments.
Both are to blame, but the people most responsible are the government as they are the ones ultimately responsible for policing the banks, and they (ie brown and bush) deliberately encouraged an unsustainable situation (in the private and government sectors).
You can blame a handful of greedy bankers for global meltdown if you want, but I'd say a more realistic outlook would be to blame the government for not doing their job of keeping an eye on the system.
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@ 48
"When Lamont was Chancellor and boy, or rather baby Dave was his financial advisor, he managed to destroy not only our economy, but nearly emptied all our reserves at the BOE.
That was a National problem and NOT a GLOBAL financial disaster that we are facing today."
lets put this common labour soundbite to bed once and for all shall we!
black wednesday was the UK buying itself out of the ERM (exchange rate mechanism)
prior to that time, we were the country in europe where world companies came to invest, build their factories, make their products (ie manufacturing)
our european partners didnt like this as they did not get the manufacturing investment that we did.
it was cheaper to invest factories and build things here, as we didnt have the penalising legislation that our european partners had for their workforces.
we had an "opt out" or "veto" on the legislation.
as part of the ERM,the pound was tied into the euro, with strict limits and conditions on interest rates etc, or UKplc would have faced huge fines.
as the UK economy grew with the growth of companies investing in the UK, inflation started to rise - slowly at first, the economy needed "cooling"
the traditional cooling method, would be to raise interest rates (ie, takemoney out of the economy and lower retail spending - which in turn lowers inflation)
the UK went to our european partners and requested and fought for interest rates to be raised.
we were out voted by other eu countries.
interest rates remained low, our inflation steadily rose upwards as money flooded into our economy. more manufacturing investment came, creating more jobs, creating more money for people to spend, creating higher inflation, our economy was over heating.
our attempts to buy billions of pounds of our own currency on the money markets failed to stem the pressures,till it came to a head: either we raise taxation through the roof or we take a quick hit and buy ourselves out of it and raise interest rates once we were free from the shackles of the ERM.
lamont (never my favourite chancellor) decided to take the one off hit and pay the huge fine for leaving the ERM.
this left a hole in the UK finances, which was plugged in the short term by the high interest rates we all witnessed.
it was widely acknowledged by many experts of the day, that had we stayed in the ERM we could have been damaged beyond repair and it could have destroyed the pound as a currency and would have cost at least 3 times the huge hit we had to take to get out of the ERM.
all experts that is, bar 1!
One mr gordon brown was calling for the UK to stay in the ERM, despite the economy over heating - despite our european partners voting to keep interest rates low - despite the fact that this would have lost us millions of manufacturing jobs and our inflation figures could easily have trebled.
hindsight is a wonderful thing - and when 1997 general election came around - the UK's financial position was THE strongest set of books every inherited by a change of government in British history!
so the short term policy whilst extremely painful for many, also proved to be the best way out of the crisis - had we followed gordon brown's advice at the time (which im sure was designed to get labour back into power) wed have been in a hole almost 3 times the size of the one that was caused by buying ourselves out of the ERM!
in todays world, gordon brown has replaced 1.7 MILLION manufacturing jobs with civil service jobs (each one paid for by the taxpayer) of which many are non sustainable long term. labour have decimated manufacturing in britain, and labour have given up the veto and opt outs that protected our inward investment from outside the euro zone, which has cost us dearly in the long term.
i can handle labour sound bites released by the spin doctors to give the man in the street something to fire back at his mates down the pub with, but for heavens sake, after 11 years of them, youd think at least one of them would be accurate?
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#153
What nonsense
So Cameron want to end the nationalisation of banks.
He wants the bank of England TO absorb any failed banks.
If the bank of England say no, like the recent Bradford and Bingley, then the people with mortgages and saving in that bank will be left out in the cold, if Cameron and co get their way.
Look, this global down-turn started in America (de-regulation..republican party)
Tell it like it is......no need to make it up....
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balhamu,
couple of quick points - child poverty has come down, but is going up again (last figures I found show a 200,000 rise in 2005/6)
also, re wealth gaps, mainly depends whether you talk percentages or absolute gaps, but a study for the Joseph Rowntree Foundation last year found that the "gap between rich and poor in Britain is as wide as it has been for 40 years".
Cheers
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derek barker,
Not toeing the party line here derek I'm afraid. The CORRECT new labour response at the moment to Cameron's banking ideas is to claim its just a rip off of the banking reform bill and plans announced by Alistair Darling last week.
Now you've gone and spoilt it all by claiming that the ideas are rubbish and will have no effect!
I fear a punishment detail may be on its way to you from Gordon!
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On the issue of multiculturalism, I've lobbied for abolishing it, and commented on that prior to Trevor Philips conversion. You can only have one dominant culture and there's limits to the flow of people. I don't have hard numbers as I'm viewing it as a systems designer but the Tories won't bash that as it's their policy hijack of the week.
The government had to deal with the reality that big business and the Tories actively opposed the New Deal and fair wages. There's only so much Labour could do in the face of that, and the recession caused by big business and the Tories influence is the inevitable outcome. Only another Labour government can take on that problem.
On the issue of bail outs. I was puzzled why the Prime Minister endorsed the US plan but noticed he'd added a caveat: "If the US believes it brings calm to the markets". After a doubt, I'm more convinced the guy knows what he's doing. The political calculation is disagreeing would cause more problems. In short, the Prime Minister privately thinks George Bush is a dummy, but there you go.
As I've commented before, the only real solution is calm and investing in new growth (which is new products and jobs creation to those in the slow lane). Both Robert X. Cringely and Dave Rogers share that view, and it's fairly clear the Prime Minister is in that ballpark. Meanwhile, the right wing just crows and peddles retread Thatcherism.
So, to go back to Nick's comment on conventional wisdom. Conventional wisdom got us into this mess and conventional wisdom isn't going to get us out. And that's where the forward looking and calm strategy of the Prime Minister can help more than sliding back to stale habit and comfort zones. Folks know this but the politics of ignorance and fear from the Tories just muddles it.
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I remember when Tony Blair was Shadow Secretary for Employment and a panellist on Question Time. I was impressed and remember saying to my then wife, this guy is going places. No one could have foreseen the untimely demise of the then Labour leader John Smith and the meteoritic rise of Tony Blair. He was equally impressive as the opposition leader tearing into John Major. Admittedly it was easy then, the Tories were in self destruct mode but none the less you felt Tony Blair was a fresh breath of air. How easy it is to be taken in.
David Cameron however comes across as being a bit of a privileged Wally, a not particularly good orator and not having any really new ideas. Nor does he seem very sincere. His cycling antics do not make him anymore endearing either. However he the best the Tories have and Gordon Brown remains the best Labour have. A sad reflection on the state of British politics and perhaps that of the nation
Surely the best outcome of the general election would be for neither party to gain a landslide majority just a working one and have an affective opposition as a counter balance. Perhaps I am being a bit too idealistic
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Who privatised state assets that are now foreign owned rip off utilities? Demutalised building societies on their watch and deregulated the credit industry? Will this be asked this week?
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Labour must be punished, and massively.
The main risk now is the tories having a massive majority and not using it well. They may to a 'blair' and waste it doing nothing , or they may go the other way and do a 'thatcher poll tax' and steam roller public oppinion...
While the less power labour and the lib dems have the better (the first being incompetent, spiteful, totalitarian lias, the others being duplicitous, deceiptful, inconsistent liars), the tories must not get above (or below) themselves -- reminding them of the end of their previous term, and that of labour must be the stick to beat them with if they get out of line.
First step in sorting out the economy is teaching the youth that easy credit is as dangerous and addictive as hard drugs.
And the biggest pusher of this toxin to innocents is the government - by having high fees for university education, and introducing youngsters to credit/debt through the student loans to pay for it. Living on credit becomes normal, and the kids are hooked and enslaved.
I was saving (from taxed income) so my kids would be able to start life as free people - debt free. However the quality of state schools is so low that this fund is being spend early on private secondary education.
Sorry kids - maybe I can persuade the government to hand over the money that my kids *aren't* costing the state education system... that would cover it nicely.
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I get the sense, TRT, that your comment is more about your frustration and upset than anything else. Vengeance just fuels boom and bust. The British are addicted to the Anglo-Saxon bullying and partisan mentality. It's not working and more Thatcherism just fuels that cycle of failure.
The shoots of better education are developing in Britain, and just voting for the other guy might upset that. Kids have to learn discipline and giving a shit, and parachuting in some Swedish style education system the Tories have seized on is a triumph of branding over substance.
This all comes back to broken economic fundamentals. "Debate"and the unregulated slosthing around of emotionalism just sucks learning and cooperation out of any system. It nukes educational capital just as much as it collapses economies and makes a desert of this blog.
Folks need to calm down. It's that simple.
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# 35 .. excellent .. I've come to believe, over the past few weeks that Labour, in it's heart of hearts - assuming it's got one - doesn't really want another term in government. If Brown calls the general election within, say, the next 9-12 months, they will lose, but can always peddle the myth, and it's a powerful one, that they tried their level best to handle the financial crisis/ recession, but luck wasn't with them etc. etc. and they were out of office , leaving the Tory government to solve the crisis as best it could and they didn't make any better job of it ... now compare that with the alternative scenario... Brown waits to 2010 to call the election. Things have improved marginally in the economy and Labour just scrapes in .. perhaps with a Lib-Lab coalition. Then the financial markets take another nose-dive .. result - widespread, long lasting real depression with unsupportable levels of unemployment, house repossessions, poverty etc... Lib-Lab coalition or agreement falls apart and the resulting general election hands a massive landslide to the Tories. Labour would be out of power for a lifetime - possibly even fold as a political party. Yes, I think Gordon might secretly want early retirement and a lucrative tour of the US lecture circuits like his predecessor.
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CEH @162
What utter hogwash.
Get into the real world and stop pretending to be someone of learning and influence.
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Chuck @ 158
I'm glad that we agree that multiculturalism was a bad idea.
Now all we need do is convince you that all the rest of the Labour/Left social and economic agenda of the past half century is equally flawed.
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getrid @ 151
Inequality has to be measured relatively so, yes, he should, is the answer.
But I'm curious. Why do you say "hard earned" cash for Mr Y? ... how do you know it was hard earned?
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grief @ 164
Using the usual definition of living in the "real world" as being someone who agrees with you, would that be it?
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derek and balhamu can argue until their hearts content, or is it really just to show how clever they are! Or at least think they are.
The proof is in the pudding and does rather look as though that pudding is going to change in 2010, however many people you two cast scorn upon. It's just a shame that Gordon's first name isn't Richard or there might have been a nice "Spotted Dick" reference to be made. But after last years show of form he is certainly a cowardy cowardy Custard.
Either way you two dress it up, "yes Gordon is wonderful", "yes labour are right and best for the country", YOU are still going to out on your backsides as soon as you can possibly be.
I cannot wait.
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Conference aside, I wonder what conversations are going on behind the scenes between the Tory leadership and the City of London - with whom they have VERY close ties.
There was a major misjudgement by the media 10 years ago when they reported that the city had been successfully wooed by the Labour Party.
This was not so; it was quite the reverse. The city no longer wanted to be associated with the Tories as they had become, and felt they could bend Labours policies to their benefit.
Now, the Tories may be heading back, and the City Slickers will be wanting to protect their corporate backsides with their traditional bed fellow.
For people like Osborne, this must be irresistible.
The school tie is not dead, it has just got cleverer.
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161. At 07:56am on 28 Sep 2008, the-real-truth wrote:
And the biggest pusher of this toxin to innocents is the government - by having high fees for university education, and introducing youngsters to credit/debt through the student loans to pay for it. Living on credit becomes normal, and the kids are hooked and enslaved.
I'm sorry, but people need to look at WHY tuition fees had to be brought in - the sheer cost of funding a university place.
There are over 1,000,000 students who receive funding. Even those who pay fees are still being subsidised.
Look into the costs, and ask yourself if it is really worth the investment. Be realistic. Many people go to university when it is beyond their academic ability. That does not mean they cannot have a successful career elsewhere, but another path towards employment or other training might be more beneficial.
As for student loans: many - not all - students waste the money on non-essential items. And of these students, many do not work part-time. Why should the taxpayer fund them?
If they have time to socialise then they have time to work.
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re: 166 sagamix
"But I'm curious. Why do you say "hard earned" cash for Mr Y? ... how do you know it was hard earned"
In most cases it would have been. There are exceptions, but most people who have money have earned it. I don't see why someone who works hard for their money should be forced to give it away to someone who can't be bothered to work hard. It's unfair, and counter-productive, because it simply leads to a brain-drain as in the 70's because when the government punishes you for hard work then the obvious response is either:
a) I won't bother working then
or
b) I'm going somewhere else where my effort isn't punished
The politics of envy is extremely nasty, and something which I despise labour for. As an ideology it's logically flawed because it's not sustainable to punish effort and to reward sloth.
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#144 Roll_On_2010
Good link re "Lord" Vaz. Today's Observer also covers it in their Vaz under pressure over 28-day query.
Far from the reforms promised by NuLab in '97, they seem to be determined to dismantle what few checks and balances are left in the quasi-democratic Westmidden system. Anyone who believes a word coming from these NuLab sleazebags needs their heads testing.
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saga @167..
I'm afraid I don't see the connection between reality and people having to agree with me...and whose "usual definition of the real world" would that have been?
Stalin?
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Nick, why don't you stop pretending to be neutral and simply stand for NuLiebor at the election. Then you'll discover how the vast majority of people in this country feel.
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141. Roll_On_2010
I read it, the best comment was:
A Cabinet Office spokesman said the room's main purpose was to give staff a place to pray
Bet theres a queue for the room.
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Aficionados of NuLab's woes may be cheered a little by Nick Cohen's Why Brown's bar-room brawlers won't win in today's Observer, the Grauniad's Sunday sister and not normally considered a Tory fiefdom.
He draws some interesting comparisons between No.10 and the Nixon White House post Watergate, finishing with the delicious sentence: "The danger for Brown is not that Labour MPs will knock him down, but that they will follow Ruth Kelly and slip out of the door, one by one, until he is left punching the air in an empty room, exhausted and alone."
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#175 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
LOL and very true
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Derek Barker
Lots of people misbehaved in the 1980s and 1990s, but they were all individuals. It was never institutional. It was never related specifically to the Conservative party or to the Conservative government
Even so its why I voted Nu Labour
Labour's "sleaze" is much worse than that of the previous Conservative government because it is systemic and institutional.
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Even so for a really good read of personal examples of sleaze
For Nu Labours top 50 sleaze scandles see here
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I'd be very interested in the reaction of our Tory chums on Gaby Hinsliff's Gove invites key Blairites to join a future Tory cabinet in today's Observer.
Bliar managed to persuade a few Tory idiots like Shaun Woodward to join the NuLab "project", but does anyone believe the likes of Blears would add anything positive to the Tory party?
I used to think that Gove had a few redeeming features, but now wonder if he's losing his marbles or making an inscrutable joke.
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#104 GRhino
"How does Cameron expect to govern when outside of England his party barely touches 30% in Opinion Polls? ... In Scotland, they have flatlined to behind 25%, and struggle to finish behind the Lib Dems."
While the first point you make is correct, in terms of the % of the vote (for Holyrood), albeit that fluctuates, what is clear in poll after poll, and lets not forget in Glasgow East where the Lib Dems and not the Conservatives, lost their deposit, is that the Lin Dems are the 4th Party, not the 3rd in Scotland- and Tavish Scott is hastening their decline.
In Scotland the Liberal Democrats are the 4th Party, both in terms of the number of seats in the Scottish Parliament, admittedly only by 1, however more significantly recent opinion polling tells a very interesting story in relation to the Westminster vote, bearing in mind that people vote differently in the Scottish Parliament elections because of the different voting system (i.e. there is more scope for tactical voting) and in which Scottish Conservatives are typically around 23-25% of the vote:
SNP - 34%
Labour - 32%
Conservatives - 17%
Liberal Democrats - 13%
The Liberal Democrats are struggling in Scotland. The recent Politics Home Poll of marginal's has the Lib Dems losing one marginal to the SNP while the Conservatives are shown to make 3 gains in marginals, and the SNP 9 gains in marginals.
You probably don't appreciate just how much the Zeitgeist has changed in Scotland since May 2007. The Lib Dems have not recovered at all since they lost the civil servants writing their speeches and formulating their policies.
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#151
Of course you are right - inequality is higher in that situtation. I think you are beginning to understand this inequality concept now :)
You're entitled to your opinion about whether it is a problem or not. I would say it is, but many would say it isn't.
One example -what if Mr y was a banker and was paid a massive bonus because he bought some very risky assets that no-one really understood. 2 years later, everyone realises they were worthless. Mr x (and his friends on similar wages) have to bail-out Mr y's employers, and in effect pay Mr y's salary for him.
And that's to say nothing about how much inequality is acceptable within a society.
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getrid @ 171
Fair enough but I think you're wrong ... the essence of the left versus right split, this is, and so we're bound to disagree, I guess.
Let me put up a little case study.
Start point is as below ...
total wealth is 100
mr rich has 90 and mr poor has 10, okay?
now let's keep the cake the same but redistribute 10 from mr rich to mr poor
So now we have as follows ...
total wealth is 100
mr rich has 80
mr poor has 20
and now let's CONTRACT the economy (total wealth) by 25 and hit mr rich and mr poor in the ratio in which they hold wealth, so mr rich loses 20 and mr poor loses 5, right?
We get the following end position ...
total wealth is 75
mr rich has 60
mr poor has 15
Now, comparing to our start position ...
economy has shrank by 25% (100 to 75)
mr rich is poorer by 33% (90 to 60)
mr poor is richer by 50% (10 to 15)
you follow? ... great, so now we make 2 key assumptions.
1. a person's welfare and happiness is primarily determined by material wealth.
2. the welfare of mr poor is no more nor less important that the welfare of mr rich, i.e. they are EQUAL in this regard.
leads to our conclusion, which is ...
even if total wealth decreases, a redistibution from rich to poor leads to a net increase in the store of human welfare and happiness ... mr rich is 33% worse off but mr poor is 50% better off. We, collectively, are 17% in the money. Do you see?
I won't end by typing FACT because it's more of a value judgement ... any case, it's Sunday afternoon which isn't a good time for getting all pointy about things.
Important though, this equality stuff, in my opinion.
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#181 - Sancus
On the contrary, I think many English do realise all too well. A near wipe out of the main stream parties north of the border can only underline the need for an English approach to English affairs while giving the Scots the freedom to turn devolution into an alternative way of governing. Everyone wins.
Far from wishing the Scots any ill will, many of us look forward to a close relationship between peoples with the freedom to manage their own affairs.
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#171
There we go again - "politics of envy".
Similar thoughts from Cameron today.
"What you won't hear from me this week is the sort of easy lines beating up on the market system, bashing financiers".
So, Cameron has no answers to the flawed renumeration system for bankers that led us to this crisis.
Most disgustingly high paid people in our economy are financiers. Their clever financial instruments hid risk in ways their employers and others in the market did not understand. The whole renumeration structure of bankers gave clear incentives to do this - to think only of the short-term at the expense of the long-term. What we are seeing now are the fruits of those short-term incentive structures.
The effect of Government bail-outs to save the financial system are that taxpayers are generously paying for the bonuses bankers have paid themselves over the past few years. Their fast cars. Their mansions. Their trips to lap-dancing clubs. All paid for in some kind of perverse redistribution from the poor and middle-income to the fat cats.
So, we do need to 'bash financiers'. We need to make sure incentive structures offered by their pay packages ensure long-term thinking in their work - this is better for both shareholders in their companies (e.g. Lehman brothers) and for the economy as a whole.
What it is not, is the 'politics of envy'.
Nobel prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz has been saying this for a long time. We need to reform corporate governance and bankers pay structures to end this crazy system with its crazy results.
These failures are simply not up for discussion in a Cameron world. As he says, he is not going to beat up on the market system or bash financiers.
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180. Brownedov
Didnt Brown offer Paddy Ashdown Norther Ireland. That wasnt such a bad idea.
Hazel Blears, err, No.
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183. sagamix
Interesting analogy
Now run it again with Mr Rich getting fed up with supporting Mr Poor and going to live in else where.
How well off is Mr Poor now and who pays for the prison cells his kids need.
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the real truth@32
"...Finally, interesting the number of pro-brown comments that contain no individualised content -- that read like they could have be posted by anyone from a standard list of ideas."
Interesting you should make that comment. Interesting it seems to me you've got it the wrong way round. I think what you are presenting in this comment is "an unreal truth" or a "truth in your head".
Interesting how many conservatives accuse the BBC of labour bias if they down follow guidelines set down by right wing forum stereotypes. Interesting a significant proportion of this blog are Scottish nationalists. Who also hate David Cameron but want the conservatives to win. Why is that I wonder?
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185. balhamu
All that you say is true, but if you do this unilaterally then the money moves away. The reason the UK has done so well for the last decade is down to NU Labours light touch form of regulation.
It needs to be global to work. The West should be easy to legislate.
So How do you get Russia and China to sign up?
Solve that one and were there.
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#181 Sancus
Good points - the Scottish LibDems certainly seem to have lost their way of late - particularly by seemingly forgetting their federalist principles. In Glasgow East, I think it was a monumental mistake to join with the arch-unionist NuLab and Tory candidates in deriding the SNP as a "single-issue" party, when their stated goal of full home rule is in fact much closer to the SNP position than any unionist. They have missed almost every opportunity to make the most of their goals since the May '07 elections and need to pull their socks up with a vengeance if they are to avoid near wipe-out in Scotland at the general election.
GRhino's final point that the current situation "does not bode well for the union" is still very relevant, however.
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Little boy Cameron starts the tories move to end all LEA, yes....the tories want to see all school become grant maintained schools.
Wow! can you imagine how run down some schools in some communities will become.
This little boy, with his little ideas is not fit for purpose.
Osborne, was saying only a couple of weeks ago, that the tories should de-regulate the banks further.
The tories all things to the few rich class.
This nation does not need the tories to create deep rooted divisions.
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#184 threnodio
I certainly hope you're right, and think there's a high probability that you are.
Some evidence of this is that so-called "Scottish Labour" can no longer sell "London Labour" policies to the electorate and show signs of their increasing desperation by claiming that only NuLab MPs in Westmidden can prevent Cameron metamorphosing into Thatcher2.
All at the same time as the notorious pix of "Duff" Gordon with the Iron Lady circulate as part of the standard SNP campaign literature, of course.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#186 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
"Didnt Brown offer Paddy Ashdown Norther Ireland. That wasnt such a bad idea."
Yes, I believe he did, but Ashdown had no real choice but to decline given that NuLab have completely ratted on their electoral and Lords reform promises.
"Hazel Blears, err, No."
Glad we agree on Little Miss Sunshine. I suppose the 3rd alternative in the last para of my #180 is that Gove is actually a NuLab mole or "sleeper". Or, if you're a real conspiracy theorist, perhaps it's Blears who's the "sleeper" and on crossing the floor will metamorphose into Iron Lady 2.
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187 carrots..
Nice one. Now we've sussed how you feel about the lower classes. all poor children are scum who go out and commit crime. Maybe the lower classes should all be locked up just in case? Only allowed out to do their duty as economic units.
What do think about Europe and Immigration?
I think Europe's a good Idea. They do everything better than us. Take France I see it isn't having problems with the 'International' credit crunch. More joined up regulation in banking in Europe would be a good thing. Maybe a European potato council could be more efficient as a joint effort to sell potatoes to the people of Europe? Or a potato and Carrot Council of Europe maybe?
On this Conservative Bank of England idea trying to dodge Nationalisation. So they can still use the "Back to the 1970s for Labour" line. I expect Dave and chums are embarrassed about that one now. Seems to me to be a dodge for the sake of party dogma.
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Devolution has been talked about for decades, however there was NO real wish to bring it on.
Until thatchers won the 1979 GE, the people of Scotland would always vote against a conservative government and the tories vote in the south always won the day.
In 1997 the public, had enough of the tories.
Devolution was not even an issue on the door step, people just wanted a change of government for the good of Britain.
There was no real reason to go ahead with devolution in 1999 and remember the snp first opposed the idea.
Devolution has become the tool of centralisation..not what it was intented to do..there is no real wish from the public of Scotland to become an Independent state, the majority of voters still hold dear to the union.......Cameron should respect that and stop his mad approach to breaking up the UK.
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#188 dhwilkinson
"Interesting a significant proportion of this blog are Scottish nationalists. Who also hate David Cameron but want the conservatives to win. Why is that I wonder?"
Obviously because after a Tory win, there will be two probable scenarios, viz:
1. If Cameron doesn't care about the union, selling independence to the Scottish people will be an order of magnitude easier with a Thatcherite bogeyman in power at Westmidden.
2. If Cameron does care about the union, he could offer a real federal solution which centralist NuLab could not. This might actually suit the SNP reasonably well as a step toward their ultimate goal until they can be sure of enough support to win a referendum for all-out independence.
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#192 - Brownedov
I am still clinging to my hope of a federal system. I think a major success for SNP in the Westminster election but only a marginal result in the referendum would be the optimum result. Westminster would have to confront the constitutional question head on while SNP would have to deal with the idea that something less than out and out independence was a way forward.
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#196 derekbarker
A coherent post, for once, but full of misinformation as usual.
52% of Scottish voters supported devolution in the 1979 referendum and again a majority did in 1997. Wales voted against in their 1979 referendum but for in the 1997 one.
To the best of my recollection, the English have never been asked if they want devolution from the UK.
So, out of four referenda on devolution in Great Britain, three (75%) have voted in favour. And two out of two (100%) in Scotland.
How about providing some facts for a change?
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183 Sagamix
Redistribution of wealth is a nice idea but it doesn't work.
Why not give Mr Poor an environment, tools and education to better himself?
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime."
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Nick Cohen's piece pretty much repeats my view of why Britain's economic fundamentals are broken, but I'm fairly certain he gets Gordon Brown completely wrong. Our personalities and perspectives are similar. This blog is a failed state and I don't go bringing down the hammer. I could, but I don't. Both THE GREAT ONE and my humble self are big on calm and patience.
Now, I'd figure that most folks, big business, and the media would get a clue about the economic fundamentals, the Anglo-Saxon mentality, and how they themselves are as much as part of the solution as problem, but it's like talking to a brick wall. Folks just rage and gnash, and keep clinging to failed ways. It's kinda dumb, but there you go.
My general view is the fundamental trends and Labour Party strategy are tending to follow what Daoists call the low road. This is more yang than yin, happy rather than sad, feminine rather than masculine. If Nick Cohen and the mob got this they wouldn't say the things they do, and might pause a little before racing ahead. Why? Cuz, it all ends in tears. Always.
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#198 threnodio
I tend to agree, but to happen it needs at least a small banana skin for Cameron to stumble on plus a Scottish referendum ASAP.
Gove could just be creating the first by touting for NuLab "talent" - if that's not an oxymoron - as suggested in the link in my #180.
Re the referendum, we seem to be moving on that here as well as the latest Brian Taylor thread.
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#200
Nice idea, and a large part of the Government's policy to reduce poverty through work and support the less well-off in improving their future earnings (e.g. New Deal, tax credits, adult skills policies, encouraging more children to go to university).
However, someone has to be at the bottom. And our society is far from meritocratic, so the economic success of your parents is a strong predictor of whether you are that someone.
Poverty also prevents children from reaching their potential, so surely the state should step in to the extent that poverty is no longer a limiting factor?
I know its easier to say people are poor because they are feckless and lazy. Easier, but not right.
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#201 Charles_E_Hardwidge
"Nick Cohen's piece ... gets Gordon Brown completely wrong. Our personalities and perspectives are similar. This blog is a failed state and I don't go bringing down the hammer. I could, but I don't. Both THE GREAT ONE and my humble self are big on calm and patience."
How modest of you for once to compare yourself with "Duff" Gordon. Many here would agree you share his wit, wisdom and humility.
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In her wholly 'objective' report (Tories gearing up for conference), BBC political correspondent Laura Kuenssberg reminds us that George Osborne is only 37 years old and hasn't had any experience "at the table of world economic events".
What is at stake here is electing the party with the right policies.
If people believe that the Government knows best how to spend our money, and that we should all pay higher taxes to fund their extravagant programmes, then they will vote Labour.
If, on the other hand, people believe in the State having a much lighter touch, not micro-managing every aspect of our lives, and wasting less money, they may well vote Tory. That is the choice. It's not rocket science!
It's quite true (as the BBC points out) that Brown has had more 'experience' in the hot-seat. But given his track record, that's not much of a recommendation, is it?
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How many of the six million civil servants
sitting in their air conditioned offices (sucking
pencils!)will be put out to grass?
How many millions of ex civil servants (most
retired early!) with their gold plated pensions
are there?
How did the workers become the servants
of the civil servants?
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I am not sure that it is wise for the Conservatives to announce too many detailed policies this week. Firstly, many policies will be hostage to fortune as Gordon Brown could embark on a scorched-earth policy, either intentionally or unintentionally, so policies would need to be adapted. Secondly, given that the Queen's Speech is still being written, it is likely that many of the policies would just be lifted and regurgitated there.
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#180 - Brownedov
You final paragraph at 180 sums the Gove business up. If he has gone off on a tangent, it could be damaging but there is no sign of rebuttal and think this is possibly officially sanctioned mischief. I think he was rash to name names, especially Blears, but there may be some Lab moderates eying up the LibDem benches and if the Tories could recruit a few of them instead, it might just work. It might also appeal to Labour waverers in middle England. Personally, I think it's a red herring but it is the 'silly season' and there will be some jockeying for position.
As to Brian Taylor's thread, again you are right and I have been impressed by the extent that some English views are being taken into account but the bottom line is that nothing said south of the border is going to change the direction of Scottish politics. The hope is that the English will seize the opportunity offered by the momentum in Scotland.
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I'm mildly surprised that none of the NuLab sycophants have been peddling the Torygraph's Poll boosts Prime Minister Gordon Brown's fightback today.
Before anyone reads too much into the pretty pictures displayed in that article, I strongly urge they take a look at Political Betting's Can we have confidence in the Sunday Telegraph?s new pollster? As it says, the move to BPIX "raises serious issues for all who care about polling transparency".
Unlike all the other main pollsters, they don't belong to the British Polling Council, they don't publish the questions they asked, they don't publish detailed results and they don't even have a working website.
Very bad news for any of us who want to analyse and question opinion polls on principle. Just the kind of organisation NuLab seems to like!
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#209
Maybe its because there aren't many 'NuLab sycophants" on here?
What do opinion polls mean at a time when we are slipping into recession mean anyway?
re detailed results of the poll. It was a Telegraph poll. I suspect the question was "How would you vote at the next general election
a) The nasty horrid Gordon Brown and his Labour Party, who has led us into a recession that is all his fault, wants to tax you heavily and is a bit strange
b) The inconsequential Lib Dems who change their mind every 5 minutes and are a bit of an irrelevancy and a waste of a vote really
c) David Cameron's wonderful Conservative Party, who will be the solution to the current economic woes and are definitely the right choice for hard-working families.
:)
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#205 DistantTraveller
You're probably right that those who believe democracy is a once every fours years or so chance to pass the buck back to Westmidden will choose one of the two big unionist parties and spend the next four rueing their choice, although I don't recommend writing off the federalist LibDems entirely, at least as potential king-makers.
People in Scotland and Wales have begun to awake to the fact that it doesn't have to be that way, but it will take a while yet for England to realise that being the least democratic place in the EU doesn't make for a "nation" of happy bunnies.
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#208 threnodio
I go along pretty much with all of your post - there's certainly been time for a "mis-speak" announcement.
I just hope the LibDems can get themselves back into some sort of shape before the election, preferably by an apology for ratting over the referendum and some more sesnible policies in Scotland re the referendum.
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More self important drivel from Nick Robinson. It would be great to have a chance to vote on a new Political Editor of the BBC. The gravitas put so skillfully in place by John Cole and Andrew Marr dripping away month by month.
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209 - that's because their eyes start burning when they read the torygraph
however the flaws of BPIX, most polls have agreed that Labour have gained a few points - tbh a monkey could have predicted that would happen, labour could only go up from that position and the labour faithful were reconvinced by (sarah) Brown's speech, also the whingers are realising unless they're scottish they haven't got an alternative option anyway, so the traditional labour voters have come back to some degree - but they aren't a majority and I don't see Brown gaining any swing voters
the labour 'resurgence' looks more like damage control to me - but i do hope this happens in the election so that the tories aren't gifted a big majority, a hung parliament would be nice...
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201. Charles_E_Hardwidge
Our personalities and perspectives are similar.
With reference to Gordon Brown, this is the umpteen time you have reminded us that you are very similar to Gordon Brown. Does that mean, that if the Great Leader should decide to step down, or heaven forbid was stepped upon, you are there ready to take on his mantle?
On the other hand, this could be a desperate cry for help. In which case, either dial 999 and request several strong white-coated men with a nice new jacket especially for yourself, or make a good strong cup of tea and calm down!
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195. dhwilkinson
We were really debating a wholly hypothetical scenario (Mr Poor and Mr Rich so sorry, but typical stereo types had to come into play.
If you think Mr Poor wont turn to crime when things get tough, click here. I doubt that Mr Rich is the one turning to mugging and burglary.
In day to day reality, no one thinks in terms of upper and lower classes.
Seeing as you ask, Im pro Europe. I spend at least 8 weeks a year in France and their life style is fantastic, though not very productive and I have always wondered how affordable it is in the long term. I do not agree with their protectionism, it really does stifle growth and trade. Their draconian taxation and employment laws just don?t work in a global economy.
This being said, I wholly disagree with offering a referendum and then reneging on the promise.
On immigration, Im all for it, Britain, on the whole, is a better place because of it. Though I should add that there isnt any doubt in my mind that its the poor that suffer as a result of almost uncontrolled immigration and not the mid to well off.
Oh yes and obviously Im pro a government Quango to promote the sale of vegetables.
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#216
That's because Mr Rich got his mugging in when times were good.
Who do you think is going to pay for his bonuses over the past few years?
That's right - Mr Poor. That's what the bail-out of banks means in terms of redistribution.
No-one thinks about class in day-to-day reality because talking about society in those terms has been banned by our political class. But you are denying reality if you would claim that there are no social classes in today's UK.
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201. Charles_E_Hardwidge
WOW
250 words and not a single point.
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#210 balhamu
Well, there are always trolls like CEH and derekb about, not to mention real believers like grandantidote.
But you could well be right, which is what makes the questions so important, as well as other indicators like "How likely are you to vote?" and "Did you vote in '05?".
If you're not already familiar with it, I suggest you look at Opinion Polls: Getting the results you want from Yes Prime Minister's "The Grand Design".
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TheGingerF @213 wrote:
"The gravitas put so skillfully in place by John Cole and Andrew Marr dripping away month by month."
Gravitas? More like 'reverence'.
Andrew Marr is so far up Nu Labour's fundament that his ears are tapping Nu Labour's epiglottis.
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#214 tarquin
LOL - I'm not in denial that they may have gained a temporary bounce, just unhappy that polls should be published without enough data to demonstrate the validity or otherwise of their results.
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Had a nice walk in the countryside today. I trod in a bovine 'Brown', but unlike its namesake it was harmless enough and washed away easily in the stream without leaving a nasty smell.
The stench of the damage left by the chief Brown will remain for a long time. Cleaning the muck left in modern Augean stables by Nu Labour will indeed be a Herculean task.
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Saw Cameron on Andrew Marr this morning. Good interview but something was missing.
With Cameron I am left with the same feeling I had with Blair before the May 1997 election. Lots of ideas but no defining characteristic.
There is a lot wrong with our country but I fear, that like Blair and his ilk in their day, Cameron does not fully get the picture.
The last thing we want after eleven years of Cameron rule is that we end up much like where we are now after eleven years of new Labour: a lot poorer and nothing much to show for it.
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#218 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
So what's new? We shouldn't encourage him.
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Did Picasso have a Brown Period?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
And for those that can stomach it
Marr and his cosy chat with Brown
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217. balhamu
All true, but that is a fact of life, Mr Rich squeezes Mr Poor.
If you try to restrain him to much then Mr Rich just leaves in search of a richer pickings.
Nu Labour know this, which is why the havent clobbered the bankers in the past
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Max at 220
Youre not wrong sir.
Seems the mods didnt like a comment in 226. So lets just call this Marrs much more robust questioning of Cameron.
Marr on Cameron
Dont recall Marr interrupting Brown once.
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# 227 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
Horrible, that was obscene! How much worse could #226 which got moderated out have been????
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And just listen to that leading opening qestion he gives Brown
Yukkk.
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230. Phoenixarisen
Yeah sorry, hope you werent eating.
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A little trickle from the nats here,
no worries though, as YOUGOV polls,
suggest the nats unable to build on their
flagship policy of Independence, still static
at 46% and falling.
Little boy Cameron in a flux over the
global down- turn situation,the young amateur politicians wont win the trust
of the British public.
Salmond in a mess over his LIT proposal scheme, another amateur of government
trying the tory approach....and guess what
....YES.....no one trusts him on taxation either........
All that shouting about Glenrothes seem to be falling on deaf ears as well.......labour still holding 43% of the vote according to YOUGOV......
Osborne the fledgling would be chancellor
it about as clear as a murky pool on his proposed budget.
The tories and the nats, what an odd combination......flap....flap....flap....
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Quangos
Apparently Camaron and Osbourne's great economic fix is to set up a new Quango.
"The office of budget responsibility"
To tell the government when they're spending too much but with no powers to enforce. I may be old fashioned but isn't the Chancellor and the treasury supposed to have their finger on the economic pulse of the country?
Well Quango haters, is this the one Quango that,s ok I guess?
I may be wrong, I often am but i see the Tory economic plans unravelling before the end of the week.
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Hmmm, following on from 213 and some of the ensuing feedback (eg 220) - thought that my mention of Marr might flush out the right wing tendency and their insecurities around BBC political commentators.
Not really bothered about which side of the fence Nick sits on - just the incessant preoccupation with playground whispers, and his ability to hear them all, while real life goes on.
I'll save the aforementioned RW squad the bother by predicting a defence/attack on New (presume Nu is a 'witty' version) Labour spin.... (yawn)
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Browndov, as a "NON DOMICILE" what can you offer in terms of collective meaning to the debate about Britain..........
Maybe you just a foreign troll with no where to go.........
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Eatonrifle @234,
I agree that another damned quango is a poor idea.
But it's irrelevant.
The British public is sick of Brown and Labour and wants them out.
Their time is over.
A pig's head on stick would be an acceptable alternative to this incompetent, mendacious, lying and worn-out shambles of a government.
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237#
I suspect Max that you held the same opinion on Labour all your life but that doesn't necessarily make it "The British Public" view in its entirity.
There is and always will be be an irresistable force in British Politics and that is sooner or later people want to give the other lot a chance and we may or may not be there BUT IMO labour have done more for ordonary people in there three terms than they are given credit for. People will think hard before they vote them out, you may yet be surprised.
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#228
I'm not sure about the "C'est la vie" approach to the behaviour of the bankers, some of which verges on the pure fradulent.
I think the reason why Labour did not act to reign bonuses in is that they are very, very afraid of being portrayed as trying to return to the 1970s, communist and proponents of the so-called 'politics of envy'. I think it was part of the Thatcherite consensus they had to accept in 1997 as the price of power.
A lot of posters on here make a massive song-and-dance about so-called scoungers on incapacity benefit, income support and other associated benefits.
The Conservatives own estimates of the level of benefit fraud is £2.7 billion per year.
Small beer compared with what the behaviour of bankers is going to cost the taxpayer. And they were well-rewarded for running their companies into the ground - bonuses in the financial sector in just 2006 and 2007 top £25 billion. The taxpayer is going to pay for these bonuses.
The posters who are so keen to chase down less than £3 billion per year on benefit fraud are rather silent on this!
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So I tune in to see whats going on the blogs and I find endless pro Labour and Brown stuff. I'm not anti labour as such, I'm currently labour dubious and I'm anti some of the wacky policies and anti Gordon Brown who just seems to have no redeeming feature and no connection with the voter that I can see. I'm fed up of the sound fellow from the manse who believes he is never wrong and thinks the current problems have nothing whatsoever to do with him. Endless guff is posted about stats saying how much better off we are. I tell you what, come back next year when this lot starts to really bite and tell me then that we are so much better off and I might listen, until then your stats arent worth anything are they, or is that why you are arguing about them now, because they will show a different story shortly. It will have moved on from a few banks imploding to businesses folding. All this endless preaching by Brown, the Ring around him, and by his hard core supporters that Brown is the answer, lets press on regardless, without any acknowledgment of any problem just makes me walk away from Brown not towards him. It also treats anybody questioning Brown as a simpleton. When we have all walked backwards off the cliff I am sure the statistican will be able to tell us with absolute certainty how we managed to get impaled on the rocks below. Its not walking off the cliff thats the clever bit, you do that by facing forward.
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The Tories aren't ready for power, and Mr. Cameron certainly isn't the kind of person we need in Number 10. How can he talk about fuel, food and all the other costs? How can someone who's worth over £4 million possibly understand?
After three years we still don't know what he's about. We'll never have good government until we have proper opposition. The Tories will never change, they still don't know where they stand on anything. Camerons interview on Andrew Marr was pityful, he reminded me of every other politician, dodging the issues, swerving questions.
Its a shame Mr. Brown didnt call the election last October and eliminate Mr. Cameron.
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Andrew Marr is/was I believe an oppo of Tony Blair (didn't they go to the same private school or something) and his wife Jackie Ashley (daughter of that JACK ASHEY, remember?) writes the Labour Party speeches I believe.
Totally wrong in my opinion to have such a person as Marr in the job he has. He is bound to let his bias get in the way.
Why IS the BBC so looney left anyway? I have a theory that many people are more or less cradle Conservatives due to their parents etc. but when they go to university they get brainwashed into becoming Socialist, becoming "do gooders" etc. Very niave of them but sometimes people can be over educated but not have a degree of common sense.
I do know that many teachers and social workers are Socialist by default. My brother is a Cambridge don and he became one too. Strangley, many of our young ordinary people with ordinary jobs are Conservative! If you are in a job where there is a Union part of your subscription goes to the Labour party but I think you can stop it.
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If only people could really remember what life was like during the last Tory Government. I'll never forget. It's taken over 10 tens years to recover.
Cameron? Spin is alive and kicking within the Tory party. If the British people, after all they've been through during the eighties and nineties vote for this lot, then .....there's no need to turn the lights off..
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242 - flamepatricia
My late mother and my uncle were very close in most respects but never agreed about politics. She described him as the only true type of socialist - someone who can afford to be.
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Eatonrifle @238,
I have indeed been anti-Labour since forever, but that doesn't necessarily make me a Tory. The Conservative Party just happens to be the lesser of a number of evils.
Labour's 'largesse' over its three terms has been a mostly wasteful dispersion of other people's money, credit and borrowing that will haunt the British taxpayer for years to come.
It's other 'successes' are mostly illusionary: After promising 'education, education, education' can anyone honestly say that the levels of literacy, numeracy, and social skills among young people are really better than 50 years ago? (Forget how many people go to university or pass dumbed-down A levels or GCSEs - and they are dumbed-down. If you don't believe it, compare examination from today with those from the 1950s).
Foreign policy: Middle East, EU? You really don't want to go there....
Crime: Are the streets safer? Even with zillions of cameras and intrusive snooper laws? Are criminals truly punished and true victims comforted and compensated?
Labour's main 'success' has been the vast expansion of the welfare-dependency culture and the number of people on the public sector pay-roll. (I hesitate to say 'employed' as that implies productive endeavour).
Other than members of the two groups mentioned in the previous paragraph, the majority of the British Public will vote Labour out with relish - and they won't need to think too hard or long about it.
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#236 derekbarker
Most non-doms are not British citizens. Getting rid of British domicile is not easy for British citizens, so most of us (like me) retain domicile but are non-resident.
A very large proportion of us (like me) also pay voluntary National Insurance contributions to retain our right to UK state pension, even though we have no right to NHS care.
Do think about researching your facts once in a while.
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#243 royalThommo
I hated the Thatches government as much as anyone, but although I'm not enamoured with either the NuLab or BluLab wings of the Tory party, you must admit that during the Major government, ministers only lied to their wives and juries and not to the entire British public.
Still, it won't make much immediate difference if either wing of the Tories gets a majority in Westmidden next time as neither care for democracy, preferring Buggins' turn in the wilderness.
But if BluLab win it may herald either the break-up of the existing UK or its replacement by a democratic federal one whilst if the hardline NuLab unionists prevail it may be at least another decade before the EU intervene under human rights legislation.
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241. FuturePMmichael
Errr a slight technicality... if I may:
Mr. Brown didnt call the election last October because he would have lost it.
Eliminate Cameron... er NO.
The PM said he wanted a chance to show the country his "vision for change" and to develop his policies further.
Well were still waiting for that arnt we.
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glanfon@240"So I tune in to see whats going on the blogs and I find endless pro Labour and Brown stuff..."
I've been commenting and reading here for a long time. I must say pro labour makes a refreshing change. The Conservatives must all be busy at conference or cannot think of anything positive to say about their party. Most pro cons are either Conservatives will do. depressing thought. or Scottish nationalists who want a nasty southern based government to help there referendum. and some Conservatives who are to embarrassed to admit it. Its called democracy and the fair press. you cant always have it your own way. No matter how many times you cry foul to the Beeb.
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239. balhamu
d'accord
Cant say Im happy with "C'est la vie " on the matter either.
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197 browndev
a) independance blah blah..
I know that it was a rhetorical question for "the real truth" to answer to him/herself.
b) federal state You have your own parliament isn't that federal enough for you? Does that mean you want a president. president Sean Connery or something.
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Well look at what the voters did for London - we voted Ken out and Boris in. And what an icon Boris is turning out to be and a flagship for David Cameron's Conservative party! This is the taste of things to come and once again we will be GREAT Britain. We always fare appallingly under a Labour government. This IS a Conservative country.
Trouble is, things in all aspects of life have become so complicated right down from the sheer baffling amount of biscuits available in the supermarket to the diverse policitical parties out there on offer, Greens, Monster Raving Looney etc. We need to cut out a lot of the chaff and get down to what we need and what truly matters.
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I would like to watch a TV program/debate between MaxScript and NorthernThatcherite@46
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252 flamepatricia
Yeh make Britain great again. Thats why its called Great Britain. Because Britain is Great . I think we should call it terrific Britain.
The biscuit problem is something we should all be worried about. Custard creams or digestives? I know I'll toss a coin. but thats a health and safety hazard. Too many people doing that and you could put someones eye out. Also putting a cross in a box really makes my head hurt. Your right we should have one Box, Conservative. make us all feel superior to each other. True equality will then be achieved. God save the queen. Is this a spoof? This was, but is yours?
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#252 flamepatricia
You seem a little confused.
"GREAT Britain" : "This IS a Conservative country."
England probably is Conservative, but you clearly haven't seen the Scottish polls, where they come nowhere.
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I think that this binary approach, that is, Conservative or Labour Governments, that we have endured for several decades, has not been particularly successful.
In essence, it has mostly meant adversarial politics, where one party often nullifies what the previous incumbent has done.
Looking forward, I do think that for the English, we will shortly (within the next but one Parliament) have a much more interesting political mix at Westminster.
With a larger number of Libs-Dems, a sizeable number of 'real' Labour MP's, Greens, English Democrats and independents.
That would hopefully bring about a move towards more consensual politics for the English people.
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Re 249
Funny thing is I havent voted Conservative for 30 years and I doubt I ever will. Until somebody, and you are welcome to try, can explain that this mess has not been severely exacerbated by Gordon Browns policies I will remain concerned to say the least. As for free speech, it seems to me that speech is altogether too easy with this government and action too difficult. Can you reassure me that there are not going to be very major economic problems just around the corner. No bubble, no financial sector growth, no manufatcuring. Hmm. Looks pretty grim to me. How about an entire younger generation who are going to pay for this. How about the fellow not that far away from me who used a chainsaw to commit suicide because of debt problems. A one off, not representative. I hope so. I would like to hear a rational arguement rather than just be told Mr Brown and his crew are the ones for the job, particularly by Mr Brown. The problem is that unless things go very well the danger is we all get another Mr Brown just a different colour. I paid a heavy price at the start of the nineties due to Conservative policy at the time, and recovery was difficult. It looks to me as though a large number of people will pay a heavy price this time around. Many of the current policies are superficial, publicity stunts, there is no point in giving a kid a PC to go on the internet from a family who is most unlikely to be able to afford the connection. Even the charities involved say that. Do you have any understanding of what it is like being on the dole. Please tell me if you understand social class 5 and 1 and inbetween. Don't get too comfortable pigeon holing me it won't work. And above all dont get too comfortable yourself because you could be picked out by destiny. And whilst I acknowledge that it must be difficult to report things there is in my opinion a lack of perspective at times, too few questions. And if you put yourself forward as being the man for the job, where you are GB or DC it is very fit and proper you are questioned. If you have any sensible comment then I am happy to hear it. By the way - When a sector collapses due to economic mismangement/recession it virtually never returns, it goes somewhere else, it doesnt bode well for the future that the financial sector has been hit so hard.
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#252 - flamepatricia
"This IS a Conservative country."
And if you want it to be, you had better not vote for them. Because it will not be the Tories who deliver an English parliament.
(You do mean England is a Conservative country don't you?)
Then the English could really get things done. Like finishing off that Stonehenge with a decent roof and building a proper wall like they had in Berlin, not that pathetic Hadrian's effort.
The Tories, even if they were to achieve a landslide would have no moral authority to govern Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland but are probably the natural party of government in England. The sooner they realise that and get their heads round constitutional reform, the better off the whole nation will be.
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#251 dhwilkinson
What an odd and ill-researched post.
"a) independance blah blah..
I know that it was a rhetorical question for "the real truth" to answer to him/herself."
As no question was posed in my #197, I expected no answer. Independence is not a personal goal of mine but it could hardly be worse for Scotland than rule from Westmidden by the authoritarian (NuLab) wing of the Tory party, and would have distinct advantages re self-rule for the other nations on the island of Great Britain.
"b) federal state You have your own parliament isn't that federal enough for you? Does that mean you want a president. president Sean Connery or something."
Thanks to NuLab's caghanded and asymmetric devolution, there's nothing federal about the UK and nor will there be so long as "Duff" Gordon and his chums have any say in the matter because the NuLab wing of the Tory party are even more centralist (and hence unionist) than their BluLab fellow Tories. There is, however, just a glimmer of a chance that Cameron's BluLab wing would take a more pragmatic view of such matters.
I certainly believe the current alien monarchy imposed by a cabal of C18 Whig & Tory gentry is long past its sell-by date even though, by chance, we currently have a monarch less awful than her predecessors. I would certainly prefer a democratic state with a written constitution - ideally a confederal republic along Swiss lines, with a tiny federal council or senate. I would also prefer the presidency to be held in rote by the democratically elected members of the federal council as a purely ceremonial post. At his age, I can't see Connery being interested in standing for election for the federal council, and as it's unlikely to happen for the next decade or two he may well not be available by then.
If you really believe that the UK is "federal enough", how do you justify the fact that England has no control of its own affairs?
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#252 flamepatricia
"This IS a Conservative country."
The last time the Conservative Party actually won a general election was the khaki election of 1900 when they got 50.3% of the (all-male) vote. The National Conservatives also got over 50% in 1931 but joined Ramsay MacDonald's National government. Thanks to the quasi-democratic 1872 plurality voting system, they have formed governments more often, of course.
"Trouble is, things in all aspects of life have become so complicated right down from the sheer baffling amount of biscuits available in the supermarket to the diverse policitical parties out there on offer, Greens, Monster Raving Looney etc. We need to cut out a lot of the chaff and get down to what we need and what truly matters."
So what really matters is a simple choice between two flavours of Tory rather than democracy? That would be the stock response from most NuLab Tories but is slightly surprising coming from the BluLab wing who usually at least mouth support for choice whilst supporting the Westmidden system that makes the UK the least democratic member of the EU.
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re 259
Wouldnt bother. Its just a spoof all round. Advises in Post 254 that that is a spoof. Nuff said. Waste of time.
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#256 JohnConstable
"I think that this binary approach, that is, Conservative or Labour Governments, that we have endured for several decades, has not been particularly successful."
Too true. In the 60+ years since WW2, successive British governments have shown as much devotion to the "peculiar institution" of the non-existent British Constitution as the American South ever did to it's own "peculiar institution" of slavery.
In the meantime, Britain lost an empire and its self-respect while the war-ravaged countries of continental Europe built themselves democracies to be proud of, which one day may come to the rescue of us British serfs via the European courts.
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#258 threnodio
LOL but very true.
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Re 259, 260
Have you considerd it could be the same person writing to themselves.
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# 181
Considering i live in Paisley, i can appreciate the Zeitgeist very well. But yes, your point is correct, even if i think the removal of Charles Kennedy is the start of their current malaise.
Further to # 199
We also had the Scottish Constitutional Convention, a cross party, cross body organisation which debated whether there should be a Scottish Parlament, and which shape it should take. This ran from 1989 to 1996, and was boycotted by the Scottish Conservatives and the SNP. To say that Devolution came fully formed in the New Labour manefesto of 1997 is ill informed to say the least. Any English devolution, i would suspect may take a similar period to evolve.
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#264 glanafon
Well, dhwilkinson and flamepatricia are both obviously Tories, but they do seem to be from the two competing Bliarite wings.
OTOH, threnodio may be correct in thinking that flamepatricia is an English nat, while dhwilkinson oozes diehard unionism.
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For anyone not watching Peston, Santander aka Abbey Nat are taking on B and B's retail banking operation.
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Going to throw the red flag wavers a bone, I stopped supporting labour 6 years ago, and I haven?t seen anything from them that will change my mind.
If they sacked of brown and his lot and got back to their core principles.
I may look at them again with a fair open mind, until then I am firmly in the Tory camp.
A chimp in a shoehorned into a suit would make a better pm than brown.
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Derek #233
You can't have something that's static at 46% AND still falling. Its either static, or its moving!
As for "young amateur politicians wont win the trust of the British public.", well what do you think Tony and Gordon were back in 1997?
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FuturePMMichael #
"How can someone who's worth over ?4 million possibly understand?"
Sorry, were you talking about Tony Blair, Shaun Woodward, Lord Sainsbury, or maybe all those Labour front benchers from privileged positions who went to private schools?
"The Tories will never change, they still don't know where they stand on anything. "
Now think carefully about this. If they'll never change then they know EXACTLY where they stand, because its the same place they used to stand. On the other hand if they don't know where they stand then they must be thinking about change.
Of course, you may be right. After all in 1997 we were told Labour were all about Tax and Spend. They will just borrow, borrow, borrow until the pot runs dry. They claimed they had changed. They promised it would be different this time.
Oops.
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Flame @ 242
Think you're right there, Patricia ... there is quite a strong correlation between being highly educated and being anti Tory. Not totally sure why.
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255. oldnat
Its very easy to vote for a socialist regime when you dont actually have to pay for it yourselves.
If each Scott had to find the 1600 pounds per person (assume that means 6400 pounds for a typical family. would they really vote for socialism then?
Scotland, Wales and especailly Northern Island receive the best of both worlds; a large state providing many perks, without actually having to pick up the whole tab.
If thats socialism then where do I sign.
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271. sagamix
Hold on thats a complete twist.
All the highly educated people mentioned are public sector workers.
And your not sure why they vote labour?
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I am surprised that Mr Robinson does not appear to have commented or investigated the story in yesterday's Observer that the Conservatives have had a vested interest in not criticising the activities of hedge funds in short selling - namely that several hedge fund managers are bank rolling it.
How could they possibly be trusted to take decisions in the best interests of the economy when it seems it would include curtailing the activities of many members of their Leaders Group - those who pay £50,000 plus for special access to Mr Cameron
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Mrs Perkins
And how could Labour possibly be trusted to take those same decisions when around 90% of its total funding at the moment comes from Unions (you know, those wonderful people that did such good things for the country in the seventies).
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266 browndev
Im ever so sorry to upset you. browndev. You campaign for "dave" and maybe your dreams will come true. Please don't call me a tory again Rab C Nesbit! thanks.
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The basic facts are these -
Labour are for big government and lead people to aspire downwards through excessive taxes and a large welfare state.
Conservatives are for small government and lead people to aspire upwards through low tax but this can lead to problems for people who can't work, etc.
The best way to get a stable country is to let them take turns - Labour have had their turn and now it's the Tories' turn to bring the pendulum back the other way. Just as happened when Thatcher got in and then when Blair got in.
It is inevitable so let's just get on with it. I am not surprised that the Tories aren't announcing their new policies as they are not in the run-up to an election.
We all know that New Labour are sunk, it's just depressing watch them take the UK down with them.
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