Gordon gets personal
The prime minister will, we're told, tell the country who he is, what he believes in, and why he's determined to lead his party and his country, not just now and in the future.
Before every leader's speech, the spin doctors always say that they will be highly personal, but my sense is that that is exactly what this speech will be.
Addressing, head on, the doubts people have expressed about Gordon Brown's capacity to win, and his purpose and vision. It will not however be, in that old cliché, a make or break speech. It will be the public, and not one speech, one conference or indeed the reaction of the Labour Party, that will determine Gordon Brown's future. It will be whether the public shows any signs of being prepared to reassess him in the weeks to come, or whether they show signs of having made their minds up against him once and for all.
PS. Ahead of Gordon Brown's speech, I chatted to Alastair Campbell and Andrew Neil on the Daily Politics about what the PM was likely to say.
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I'm pleased he's finally decided to make this speech personal becaaue that's exactly the issue the electorate has with him - personal.
Call an election please and we'll show you what we think about Gordon Brown personally.
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Cue the Closed Mind Chorus ......................................
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When will he get it. It is not about whether he will win or not! It is about whether he will lead.
His problem was that he could have done something whilst he was Chancellor, he must have known about the financial crisis. He was around for the dot com boom. Well what did he do, he with the Americans put off the day of reckoning by baling out the market.
Where was he as a senior member of the governmnet over Iraq. Nothing, he is as much to blame as Tony Blair. He just mouthed platitudes when forced to. He is neither one thing nor the other.
He is paternalistic, he thinks he is uncle Gordon, he is a despot. He must go, will somebody wield the knife. I have said previously about Julius Caesar, it is the most appropriate of Shakespeares plays for these times. They must all do it together.
I will listen with great interest but I am so sorry but the son of the Manse must go. He is no leader, he is the Captain of a Dreadnought. Not even the Titanic, which was unsinkable is a good comparison.
The Dreadnoughts were built for a war in which they were useless, tey were out of date as soon as they were built, they were finished by submarines, they could be holed below the waterline by a tiny underseaboat. Well this government is fatally holed below the waterline. There is no crown to pass on, they are finished, I wish they would sink without trace.
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He doesn't know who he is any more.
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This morning we had Douglas Alexandra tell us on BBC news that this government will be judged on what they will do not on the past.Can we belive any promise given for the futre by Gordon the man who denied us a referendum .And if they really think that why do they keep banging on about how bad the tories were.
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Nick,
Since Brown was apparently (according to Andrew Neal) rehearsing the speech in the hall for two hours last night and again this morning, you are doubtless in a position to know. (And don't tell me your technology did not capture it, even if you were locked out personally).
I shall reserve judgment until after he has bored me to death:-)
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The reason that it is not MAKE OR BREAK is because he is already completely broken.
The only question is when the replacement will be installed.
I think labour are completely correct when they say he is head and sholders above any other candidate for the party leadership.
That is why he must be replaced as PM by someone of another party.
If Brown doesn't call a general election, then the best he can do for the country is keep the rest of his rabble out of the top seat untill the election comes.
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the problem with Brown is it's never his fault. I watched the Andrew Marr interview which was quite frankly stomach churning. He asked for time to set out his vision. I've seen it and don't want to be a part of it. Unfortunately, I can't decide whether Brown is just stupid or arrogant ( or perhaps a mixture of both?). I am pretty certain he will not be leading the party at the next election.... whether or not his speech is a success today ( and lets face it... based on past ones it will be a nails down the blackboard bad one) will merely buy him time until the Glenrothes by election which he will lose badly and then will be forced out
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re: 1 RobinJD
very true; it is indeed very personal; the man's been personally in charge of the money and basically all domestic policy for the last 11 years (blair just concentrated on foreign affairs and left brown to everything else), and Brown is always very quick to say that he's personally the person who deserves credit whenever it looks like something has gone right in the world.
Logic dictates that he's therefore also the person who everyone should blame whenever anything goes wrong in the world.
And my oh my how it's all gone wrong.
A man who deliberately lies to pensioners about their energy rebates just for a laugh deserves every kind of character attack that he gets.
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I think ,as always , that politicians and commentators seriously underestimate the good sense and judgement of the Public. It is perfectly clear, and has been since early autumn 2007 that Gordon Brown is at best a number 2, never a number 1, his predecessor ,war criminal and all looks good against sad old Gordon...he is and will always be out of his depth, very much like John Major. Perhaps that is the only similarity between Blair and Thatcher in that they both left the hotseat to morons.....Mageret Thatcher because she was betrayed by her party....Blair because he could..
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#3 T A Griffin (TAG): "The Dreadnoughts were built for a war in which they were useless, tey were out of date as soon as they were built, they were finished by submarines.."
Surely that's not right? The submarine was little threat to the main Battleship during WW1, as I understand it. The main threat was the Motor Torpedo Boat, which led to the building of the whole new class of ships - the Torpedo Boat Destroyers - as fleet escorts. The MTBs were much faster than any sub, and used the same weapon. Even in WW2, in spite of some submarine successes, the main threat to the battleship, and the reason they became obsolete, was the development of air power.
You never know, perhaps your political analysis is equally flawed?
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This morning we had Douglas Alexandra tell us on BBC news that this government will be judged on what they will do not on the past.
Nope Doug. I think you'll find you will be judged on the past. Because we can see what you've done. You have left us practically bankrupt, with massive pay commitments to an army of public employees that we should have culled by 50% over the last ten years.
You will not be judged on what you 'offer' because we don't trust a word that comes out of your collective mouths.
And with good reason.
Funny though that they don't want to be judged by their past but all their apparatchik disinformation at the moment is directed towards an afternoon of 12% interest rates 20 years ago.
I say we should judge Labour on the last time the bankrupt the nation. 1976. Helllooooo IMF.
Coming again to a country near you.
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Brown's speech will be important, but Nick is right that it will be the public who decides.
Brown is in an especially interesting position as he has only actually made two mistakes as PM, (The election that never was and the 10p tax fiasco) but his inability to come across to people means that he becomes branded by his opponents and their jibes stick. Once the polls come out minor dislikes are confirmed and they spiral.
If he can come across as genuine and convey what is evidently important to him in a sincere and theatrical enough way to sate the party (and the media) it will signify a change in presentation which may carry him forward.
How far forward is another matter.
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the 'closed mind chorus' ... jimbrandt?
So was it with an open mind the Gordon Brown stood against the 10p tax brigade?
Was it with an open mnd that Gordon Brown waived through the financing of the Iraq war? 'let's just see if we find anything, huh?'
Was it an open mind that allowed public and private debt to ballon to record levels before they popped.
Does Gordon Brown's 'open mind' decide we don't need to fulfill the newlabour manifesto pledges?
Is it an open mind that listens to his special advisor Ed balls or jsut one that is closed to everyone else's ideas?
Did gordon's 'listening' mode give us 42 day detention and the most spied upon western society.
Is it an 'open mind' that will subsidise broadband acces for the poor or jsut one that wants to 'read their minds' as he snoops on us even more?
The truth is out there but Gordon Brown couldn't see it if it knocked on the door of Downing Street and presented itself to him.
Call an election if you want to see some open minds open their minds about Gordon Brown.
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Hi Nick, I think the whole context of the speech highlights the problem for Gordon Brown. He was unanimously elected by the Labour Party not long ago and here is he is having to make the speech of his life to keep his job. It highlights not so much his failings as prime minister but divisions in a parlimentary labour party that has lost it's way.
Gordon Brown might have been better to skip the conference and remain in London playing the national leader in a time of crisis. One reason Tony Blair was such a successful leader was that he paid lip service to a party that was ill at ease with him. He always tried to appeal directly to the electorate which gave him huge personal authority and ultimatly political authority with the labour party.
A lot of MP's owe their seats to the Tony Blair factor which just can't be said of Gordon Brown. I think he might have been better to take a leaf out of John Major's book and directly address the nation like he did during the first gulf war. It allowed him to build a relationship with the electorate which served him well in the 1992 election.
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Bye bye Browny
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The problem is one of 'connecting with the people'. When Brown speaks you have no sense that he speaks in any language that we understand. Blair spoke our language, Straw does, Major did, and many years ago so did James Callaghan. Brown talks in platitudes 'taking the long term decisions' is one of his worst and it is not apparent that there is any action behind the words.
He is finished unless he presents a vision backed up by action in words that we (the general public) can understand.
I am not sure that 'internet for all' will qualify. For example people(both rich and poor) would be more interested in lower taxes, higher allowances and less complication in the tax system. This would enable them to make their own choices rather than have 'nanny tell them what to do' again!
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It will not matter if he talks all afternoon, no one is remotly interested in listening to his mantra "In the long term, whatever it takes, I am the right man to see us throgh the dificult times" We are all sick of hearing it repeated over and over and over again.
We are waiting for an election to get rid.
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He has to stay on!
Let's face it, his good work over the past 10 years or so is the reason Britian has prospered and now even gets the chance to feel the pinch in this world-wide financial problem.
He has done well until now, never falling into the trap of defending himself and making himself look good at the expense of the country, so he must be our best bet to get us through this latest world episode. He has the know-how and the experience to do the job... let him get on with it.
OK, he is not perfect, but what politian is? But with the alternative being the popularity seeking and image obessed David Cameron (haven't we had enough of that already?), i think we are as well of as we can expect in these turbulent economic times.
Add that to the fact that he is a decent bloke and you come out with a pretty decent candidate for PM. Come on UK, think clearly... do you really want DC in charge?
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The yuck factor; the personality problems eg turning up late to sign a treaty in a little room on his own; staying around long enoughto destroy his reputation as chancellor and six months of debate about when he should go- Mr Brown is not able to continue the premiership.
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Just heard Alistair Campbell deflect Andrew Neil's question about the ballooning public borrowing requirement. Trouble with politicians (Campbell included) is a complete lack of honesty - Brown blew it when he was deficit spending during the boom years and however they try to dress it up, that was downright irresponsible!
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Gordon gets personal....
has it occured to Gordon that "trust me, I'm a politician" is not a line that rings quite right?
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This is our country Labour, not yours, and we don't want you ruining it any more.
We want a general election, nothing else will do.
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Interesting choice of music to take the stage to. Surely "Should I stay or should I go" would have been a better choice?
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3, I'm afraid you're final analogy is inaccurate, Dreadnought actually revolutionised naval warfare and it would be aircraft carriers, not subs, that would rend them obsolete some thirty years later (though dreadnough ceased to be used after WWI the battleships and cruisers up to WWII were evolutions of the design). I think even those who like Gordon would be hard pressed to defend that comparison...
However, perhaps Gordon Brown might be a clunking old Dreadnought in the modern age of nuclear-powered aircraft carriers and sophisticated missilery but that's a different story!
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As chancellor he claimed to have abolished boom and bust - guess what, he failed. He's had a year as PM to show us his vision - he failed again. Now he wants us to trust him with even more time! He should just accept his failures, shuffle off and let someone else (anyone else) have a go.
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This member of the public watched ten seconds of the broadcast with the sound turned off. The man was chuckling and chortling!
Very unnerving. Bit like being grinned at by a funeral director. Most unseemly and unsettling.
I need a lie-down in a darkened room.
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It suits Brown to deflect the real traumas facing Britain today. His policies and lust for power mean that he took his eye off regulation of the city financiers. To say that the Labout Party shouldn't look inwards at this point, when HE created the problem, is ridiculous.
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Oh lord.
"Mr Brown says his children "aren't props; they're people", which is a dig at David Cameron"
Well, they weren't props... right up to this moment. And now they are.
So what does that make Sarah Brown then? The Prime Prop? Or as we're apparently continuing Blair's Presidential pretensions, the First Lady of Prop?
Classic passive-aggressive behaviour. He hides behind his wife's skirts (bottle gone again?) then doesn't even have the courage and integrity to say what he means directly. Snipe and sneer. That's what you do when you're in opposition, not when you aspire to lead the nation.
As a Scot, I profusely apologise, both in general, and specifically for Brown. Thanks for taking him off our hands, and please, please, don't send him back.
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Gordon Brown - the man who stole our pensions and wasted most of our, yes our, money - is banging on about fairness.
I am going to be sick.
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I am a jeweller and like every one else I know in the trade, none of us can understand why he sold of our gold so cheaply. Surly no one should be allowed to sell of the countries wealth the way this man did.
I could never trust this party or this man or labour. I remember some the three day week, the terrible secondray modern schools and the mess we are in now is all down to this socialist model, thrust appon us. Every time we get a labour party in power, we end up like this, and it is going to be something like the 1929 slump before it finally starts to recover.
Maggie may have done some bad things but at least she stood up to the unions.
Brown and Blair alone with all there sycophants to back them up have brough our wonderful country to its knees. It has been one of lies and lies and more lies since they gained power. I do not know of any promise they have made and kept.
We have a scotish party in power in England who basically hate the English.
Its time to let them all go and come out of Europe, we dont need them and will make it on our own.
Yours Sincerely
very fed up with all the lies and feather nester.
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There seems to be a media campaign based on a world view that see's the M25 as a border and not a motorway that Brown is finished! Well maybe, but it seems to reflect a general desire for him to be replaced by a Blair clone of some description and seemingly any party. So if you are private school, Oxbridge and 'youthful' you are de facto "a leader". If state school, red brick and showing a few wrinkles you are "out of your depth". Only to be alleviated by spilling up your emotional guts up on TV preferably about personal pain or historical struggles. This of course once called for and delivered is a sign of "weakness". I would love to blame all of this on a media obsessed on the trivial and innane. But I have a horrible fear that this nonsense reflects on us all and will result in the country losing a statesman and gaining a showman and calling that progress.
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"Cue the Closed Mind Chorus ......................................"
That is only a mirror of the typical response people get from this shambolic Government.
As for people who disagree with Brown having a closed mind? I would claim the opposite, in fact it is labour supporters that blindly follow and offer their deference to the appalling labour Government that have closed minds. Closed to the reason that labour are 28 points behind in the polls and facing a complete wipe-out at the next election, whether Brown leads them or not!
It shows how bad things are when he has to get his wife to defend him. Then he tries to appeal to the heart and get personal and tell us who he thinks he is.
It is too late for that. We knew he was a shallow charlatan before the Blair coup.
He wants us to know what motivates him...WE DON'T CARE! We just want a Prime Minister who has the understanding, ability and knowledge to fix what is wrong with the country.
He happens to be a major cause of many of the things that are wrong, so it is very unlikely that he can fix them.
So he should get the hell out of the way and make way for someone who does.
he is no longer fulfilling the promises made in the 2005 Manifesto and so is in defiance of British Democracy.
Brown is finished and we can all see so far through the scripted fake "sideshow" in Manchester that he may as well call an election instead of demonstrate his delusions and fantasies before the poor deluded masses in Manchester. Anything less than that is not good enough and is a total abdication of his responsibility to the country.
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"It will be the public, and not one speech,".
I would also remind you Nick that it will be the public and not a journalist who decides.
Ron Taylor
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I'm switching off now. I can't take any more.
Please somebody rid us of this hypocrite.
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Although I watch footie and enjoy a good game there is nothing more boring than a team lacking in zest and a nil-nil score with a penalty shoot-out. I mean why bother with the game, just have the penalty shoot-out, you could have the whole thing sorted in no time. Its all so Labourious when the score is nil-nil.
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This speech is utterly nauseating, sentimental drivel and devoid of intelligent content. "A British century?" Huh? "A global economy poised to double in size"?
I see that he's spending yet more money (childcare places this time); still, if annual borrowings are already heading towards £90bn, I don't suppose the odd billion here or there makes much difference............
The opening song should have been this Boz Scaggs track:
"Just Go"
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This speech is lie after lie.
'My kids are not props'
Well lookie here (pic 7):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/6701961.stm
'Finance should be transparent'
Mr Brown, add PFI debt to the balance sheets please, and lets see just how much the country is in the red.
'X* new jobs'
*made up number from immigration and 'fake' public posts.
Why will the people interviewing him not bring him up on these lies? The BBC and all other outlets should be ashamed.
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I think a kind of mass 'group think' has taken hold of the public when it comes to Gordon Brown and it has little to do with policies, record and abilities and a lot to do with personality, communication and the desire to find a scape goat.
Compare Brown to Major in the last years of the Tory administration: Black Wednesday, Cash for Questions, The 'Sword of Truth', Back to Basics - compared to scrapping 10p tax and lacking slick communication skills. Labour's problem is that they lack the aggression and sophistication they had in the Campbell years, and are unable to bat away the media's accusations.
What is it the Tories would do that warrants their 20 point lead? Their policies are thin on the ground and they have spent the past 3 years carrying out an extended PR project. Their leader is an insubstantial PR man with no purpose other than personal ambition and does not have the record of public service and conviction that Brown has. Cameron is a second rate Blair, and what we need is a serious, statesman-like Brown to show up this insubstantial slick PR man.
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The Brown speech going to be like trying to gloss over a stagnant pond thats whiffing. Can't be done.
He's out of ideas, his internal opponents are out of ideas.
Labour are sinking and its an impossibility for them to sink much further. I am starting to wonder though whether the New Labour project won't have killed Labour in ten years. There is no political momentum or stirring ideology or even cosmetic leadership.
"Listening Gordon" lasted several weeks. Now the spin doctors give us "New Gordon" - but whats new? Till the Ides of March?
Miliband is going to slide into the mistake Portillo made in that if you are seen to be "an assassin" who never strikes then he will look both disloyal and weak.
A new leader means an election and they can't win.
The other parties don't look great. The Tories should have been baying for an election and it says an awful lot that they are not. Will Cameron bottle it?
The Lib Dems for once have positioned themselves better but as always the electoral system will hinder fairness and Clegg is not an inspiration to me.
So in one of the biggest crises to face the country for decades we have political paralysis and probable inaction till 2010 at worst.
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Spending money like there's no tomorrow.
And now he's going to find a cure for cancer.
When we get to the end of the speech, are they going to bring in a swimming pool for him to walk across?
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He accuses David Cameron of using family props and then allows his wife to take the rostrum. Yet another example of sheer hypocrisy!
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# 12
This crisis of capitalist "free enterprise" in the banking sector, U ... agree that it's a problem? ... agree that it's not due to socialism?
Just YES and YES will suffice but by all means tag on a bit of "it's all gone on quangos" if U feel the need.
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Problem for you Brown is NOBODY is listening to you anymore.
I have no interest in what you are saying as none of it will ever happen.
Too much rhetoric, very little action.
For the love of god just be quiet and call an election.
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I am not interested in this mans personal political ambitions. It's about the British people and the country, not about him. The population did not choose him to lead them (I know we operate a party system but Labour were voted in under the promise Blair would serve a full 3rd term, regardless of your opinions on the man). He should do the right thing and stand aside but he won't due to his absolute obsession with one thing - himself and his place in history. The people of this country want him out and his party want him out. yet he will not go. His selfishness and arrogance astounds me.
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Although I am English and live in England, even I can see that native Scots are already deciding that Alex Salmond is the Prime Minister of Scotland.
Furthermore, Salmond has real political legitimacy because the people of Scotland have voted for him.
Brown has been imposed on us English via internal party mechanisms, and has no direct mandate from the English people.
And when he finally asks for it in a General Election, I believe that the English will not choose somebody from another country any more to be their Prime Minister.
It has become politically untenable.
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39:
The point is surely the similarity between Major and Brown. Both had no chance of re-election. Both were discredited. Both were hanging on to the last possible minute.
If your point is that Major's government was awful, I agree, totally. But this one is every bit as bad.
And yes, the scary thing is that, where Brown is another Major, Cameron may be another Blair. Oh dear.
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# 14 Robin
Thinking things over, I think I owe you an apology. I shouldn't keep sniping at what you're saying. You are misguided in most of your views but I have a feeling that you are sincere in putting them forward. In that, you seem to be a little bit different to most of the small minded, mean spirited reactionaries on here ... an odd mix of buffoons and lunatics, I'm sure you'll agree!
So, Robin, please do carry on sharing your views with us because I sense that all is not lost with you. All I ask is that you have a little think before you publish. For example ... "they have trashed the currency" ... "it's all gone on quangos" ... you cheapen your other points when you shout silly stuff like that.
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Watched the speech - not impressed - Rome is burning and Nero Brown is offering us unfunded trinkets like "all two year olds having access to nursery places" or legislating for "an end to child poverty" (we could legislate for an end to war if we wanted to, but it would be pointless gesture politics). I give it 3 out of 10.
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It is the agenda that Brown has lost control of. When he can't control the agenda he panics.
In the run up to the last Labour Conference he was nicely in control, probably worried about the looming world financial mess, but he felt reasonably in control. Then there was the announcement by the Tories of raising the Death Duty Threshold. It was well received and he paniced. Ever since then he and his government have fallen victim to suggestions created by the media, other parties and even from within his own party.
The way it works is this. The source says, "The government is considering removing stamp duty for the next year." The problem for the government is that they may have considered it and have not totally ruled it out. As there is no immediate denial, expectation rises that this will happen. If they agree to cut stamp duty straight away, they are accused of panic and a knee jerk reaction. If they spend time making their minds up they are accused of dithering. If they finally agree that it would be a good idea, they are accused of being weak and bending to public pressure. If they do less than suggested by the initial rumour , they are accused of of raising everyone's expectations. In such a climate Brown doesn't stand a chance.
John Major suffered in a similar way. Blair charmed his way through it until this relentless way of thinking won through. Thatcher was a victim too. All defeated by the 'let's criticise and destroy' machine. Such a mechanism is inevitable, but the problem is that the 'build up and praise' machine does not get an outing. Every parent, teacher, employer knows that if you find something to praise about someone you will get an overall improvement.
In anticipation of cheap jibes, anyone who retorts that Brown has done absolutely no good at all is blinkered and demonstrates an inability to develop a reasoned argument.
Should Brown go? I think yes. Not because he is making poor decisions, but because he has lost control of the agenda in this country and this makes him appear to be a poor leader.
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46:
Spot on. Clever people, the Scots; they get the elected and very able Salmond, and they send us Brown.
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Well, by GB's standards, that wasn't such a terrible speech.
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I think a kind of mass 'group think' has taken hold of the public when it comes to Gordon Brown
Yep. They've finally woken up from their slumbers. The Emporer has no clothes. The 'miracle' economy was just a miracle of public and private borrowing. Now we can't borrow any more the miracle has stopped. Except for Gordon. He's going to keep borrowing.
Compare Brown to Major in the last years of the Tory administration: Black Wednesday, Cash for Questions, The 'Sword of Truth', Back to Basics - compared to scrapping 10p tax
Why stop at the 10p tax? Aren't you forgetting the Iraq war? ID cards? 42 day detention? Northern Rock? And why settle for going back 12 or 15 years. Lets go back 32 years to 1976. Country bankrupt. Inflation 25%+. IMF on speed dial.
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Interesting quote from Jack Straw today:-
"Gordon Brown was elected 15 months ago because of his record and his promise".
I'd challenge this on every front:-
1) He was not elected 15 months ago by anybody. He has no mandate to lead the country and worse still has demonstrated from day 1 that he has no ability to lead the country, hence why he won't allow anybody the chance of an election.
2) His record is now being shown to be the sham that everyone (barring readers of The Sun) knew it to be. A prudent chancellor would have saved money in the good times knowing that it would be needed come the bad. A prudent chancellor wouldn't have created the pensions crisis by removing the right to reclaim tax credit. A prudent chancellor wouldn't have wated the billions of pounds in unfair taxes that he steals from all of us. A prudent chancellor would have seen these current problems coming instead of encouraging the whole country to live on mountains of debt.
Basically the boom years of the last decade were in spite of Gordon Brown not because of him. If he had been the cause of the boom years we could maybe trust him to know how to navigate through the bad years. Instead we know he hasn't the faintest idea and yet won't allow the country the choice it deserves to get rid of him while we still have a chance to survive recession!
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This crisis of capitalist "free enterprise" in the banking sector, U ... agree that it's a problem? ... agree that it's not due to socialism?
Why would I agree with something that is demonstrably untrue?
This country is in an economic crisis because this socialist government has squandered all our money and committed us to paying for a million extra of their voters. Fact.
Just say YES.
Even if you refuse to acknowledge this self-evident fact you are in a minority of 24% and dwindling.
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Gordon Brown's address to his party was the greatest example of fiddling while Rome burns I have ever listened ot.
More long term self righteous unattainable energy targets (not one met yet)
"no bank should take on risk it does not understand" ... but you created this regulatory framework Gordon and thenm refused to tkae the rap when it failed.
"free market dogma"... but you freed up the Bank of England and then failed to monitor the system... o yes, let's replace it with ideological dogma.
The sight of a tearful Nelly and Glenys Kinnock in the crowd listening to Gordon Brown's speech only served to reassure that there was absolutely nothing of substance whatsoever.
Yet agian, over one year in to the biggest financial crisis facing the country we are given lots of 'targets' and not the manner or method of delivery for any of it.
The man is a fake.. talk a big game while you slowly watch the country disintegrate down to the lowest common denominator.
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# 46 JayCee
Well we have a big problem then, don't we, given that for most English people, Eton is far more of Another Country than Scotland is ... you advocating a vote for Clegg?
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and what we need is a serious, statesman-like Brown
Too bad we have a scheming, incompetent socialist Brown then.
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pretty standard speech - i had to turn it off when he started praising Harman's equalities bill
i nearly found myself believing the bumph, and then i remembered something, as gordon stood up there speaking about how much he'd done and how noble labour were, i remembered that they allowed the acquisition of hbos with a guarantee on scottish jobs, no one else - real nobility there, pure party politics at work
don't believe the tripe
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This was the most patronising rubbish I've heard in a long time. If it was intended to impress anyone other than the blank faced Labour delegates, it failed. The speech was best suited to the pulpit with the constant "you knows" and semi religious platitudes. The man is in total denial. He talked, the delegates clapped, but why they clapped only the almighty knows, there was no substance, merely claims of achievements, promises for ten years hence and half truths. If he had any of the integrity he claims, he would call a general election now.
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I can't bear to listen to this man's lies and stupidity anymore; I'm guessing that most other people think the same; really doesn't matter what he says because there are only a handful of people left listening to him, and the few that are listening don't believe him.
Please just call an election Gordon; you're finished and we don't want our country ruined any more than it already is.
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The Queen appointed him the PM, right?
There you go. We elect parties, not people.
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So that was the new Brown approach.
Same as usual. More of the same. hardly anything new. Tinkering round the edges. Bore and tax us into submission.
In my opinion he won't lead Labour into the next election.
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something else i hate about labour
andrew neil pointed out to i think* ken Livingstone (not sure, but it was a lefty), that the public debt had increased to over 6% since Labour came in
his retort was of course that they had tripled spending on everything
no arguments with how much you've spent - one problem: you spent what you didn't earn!
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Nick, this speech is irrelevant. We already know enough.
Speaking as one of the "closed mind chorus," I have a question for you Jimbrant.
Fact 1. Government spending is out of control. (Example - 90,000 a year employed by the state since 1997 / endless gimicks like free internet for the poor etc etc etc)
Fact 2. Government borrowing is now up to the limit. (Warnnings of imminent 5% tax rises because the government can no longer borrow.
Based on these unarguable facts, the future government of this country now have two choices, either massively slash spending or declare bankruptcy.
Jimbrant. How can you support the contention that Gordon Brown is anything other than an incompetent fool and unfit to be Prime Minister?
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The problems of Brown are nothing to do with the credit crunch and the effects that is having; indeed nor is it about whether he's the right man for the job.
No - it's far more simple than that.
The problems began when Gordon Brown snuck in the back door after Blair.
I remember the electorate voting Tony Blair in.
Can't quite remember them voting in Gordon Brown...
For me and many others, this is the problem.
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it started with a plea from his wife to be nice to Gordon because he means well. what followed was an orgy of organised leader adulation, not seen since the demise of the soviet era. They clapped at the end of every sentence whether or not he actually said anything relevant. He then claimed credit for saving 240,000 lives, for saving northern Rock and the whole of the free world's economy, he promised, inter alia, a cure for cancer, not sure if he really said he would link pensions to earnings, was going to reduce carbon emissions by 80% by 2050 and also promised free prescription to cancer sufferers, etc etc etc. The whole speech sounded very plausible and full of good intention....However who exactly has been in government for the past ten years? It was like the past had never existed, lets wipe the memory clean and start again. The message was "dont worry, i really care so i will fix it, please give me another chance". I am not sure the UK electorate will buy this, and they will surely be asking themselves, where is all the money going to come from?
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"Before every leader's speech, the spin doctors always say that they will be highly personal.."
It was highly 'poisonal' as the New Joisy mafia might say..
He mentioned the names of those he wanted to 'behave themselves' and 'be loyal' and then studiously ignored those like Miliband and Darling who he might dump if it became rather expedient to do without them..
Make no mistake, the likes of Blears and Harman will have heard, loud and clear, that they had 'better be on their best behaviour'.
Or it's 'coytains' for you and 'you'll be swimming wid da fishes..'
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Instead we know he hasn't the faintest idea and yet won't allow the country the choice it deserves to get rid of him while we still have a chance to survive recession!
Barring absolutely staggering amounts of 'borrowing for investment in infrastructure' (national debt or budget deficit to you and me) a nasty, deep recession is a nailed on certainty. Meanwhile the disinformation squad is out in force claiming how uniquely placed we are to weather this 'global' crisis. Yeah. Sure we are.
Even the OECD reckons we are already in recession. Mortgage numbers down to the lowest since records began in 1997. House prices down 12% in a year. Belts tightening all over the country. The UK's banks on the ropes with no money to lend anybody. Having borrowed all their money and more in the previous decade as the great British public did what they always do when their house increases in value. Go mad.
But apparently it's not Gordon's fault. It's the yankee banks. If they hadn't saddled our banks with dodgy collateral then our banks would have been able to just keep lending even more money. For ever and ever and ever. Our houses would just have gone up exponentially in value indefinitely if it wasn't for the yanks and their dodgy loans.
And this is the moonshine we are being fed. Not Gordon's fault. The yanks fault.
Pull the other one.
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I am quite emotional after PM's speech.
How dare he, one more time he has not listened to what the people are saying.
What on earth is he saying.
No word on scraping the ID cards we don't want and can't afford.
No word on scraping the EU that we don't want and can't afford.
No chance Of him saying sorry for interfering in our lives and keeping his nose out in future.
So, more Spying, Lying, Fines, etc.
Has he tried to get an appointment to see a doctor lately? (NHS). The most of the work they do is repeat prescriptions.
Why must Labour spend so much of their time slagging off other parties.
We have spent 11 years watching GB go down the pan, and Labour was the party in power
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Just having a recap.
Am I right in thinking that the Labour speakers have been talking like the opposition? Non of the speeches seem to sound like a party in government. "Taking on the Tories" seems to be said very often.
Just a feeling.
Moral must be very low.
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47: You haven't explained why Brown is as bad as Major. I gave specific instances of where the Tories were much worse, but you have not provided equivalent reasons for why Labour are as bad.
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JC -
You do realise that Salmond is leader of a minority govt and has less mandate than Brown.
No matter how much we moan about it we live in a parliamentary democracy whereby the peading party chooses who their leader is and who by default becomes PM.
As for the English only voting for the English - are you really saying that teh English are that bigoted they could only vote for an English person?
Surely not.
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"Will decide", Nick? We already have. Dead man walking. The question is, how much more damage can he do before he goes? And then, how much more damage can New Labour do before they go?
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Gordon Brown and Labour will not be able to rejoin with people as for so long they have been dishonest.
PFI in hospitals that will cost us a fortune, even though Brown has kept the huge amount of money we own the private companies off the balance sheets which he decries the banks for doing. Saying taxes had funded many of the projects when in fact they raided the Lottery Fund to provide basic diagnostic machines, just to keep his dishonest accounting under the table.
The continued under funding of our Armed Forces, fighting for a cause that Labour took us to war for and now the bust in the economy. Those who knew him to be a bit of a dodgy accountant knew he had spent the huge surpluses left him by the Tories and now Labour are borrowing more and more money.
There are so many more lies and broken promises that Labour defies credibility. So much for prudence!
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#57
I share your obvious distaste for 'political elites' whether they be from Eton or indeed Fettes.
This Englishman always votes for the independent candidate.
No Cleggovers here.
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I can't bear to listen to this man's lies and stupidity anymore; I'm guessing that most other people think the same;
About 76% of voters who expressed an interest feel the same.
It's the other 24% you have to worry about. What will it take for the scales to fall from their eyes? I guess there are none so blind as those who will not see. And that includes Gordon Brown himself.
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Actually I really object to Brown starting off that speech on not using his Children:
BROWN - "My Children are not props but people"
http://ts17.gazettelive.co.uk/Gordeon-brown.jpg
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Second picture found in the Daily Mail this time. How can anyone trust a word he says?
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At 1:40pm on 23 Sep 2008, T A Griffin (TAG) wrote:
//
Where was he as a senior member of the governmnet over Iraq
//
Writing the cheques for the bombs and bullets that killed so many innocent Iraqis, that's where he was. Yes, by all current terms, he too is a war criminal.
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I am studying at home today for exams which isn't a great deal of fun. But at least I wasn't sitting amongst that bunch of hypocritical champagne socialists.
I suppose I should always remember the mantra 'there's always somebody worse off than yourself'.
#56 RobinJD - You're right. The country's going down the pan and he's busy patting the back of the NHS workers so that they'll vote for him at the next general election. Utterly sickening.
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Brown may have other reasons for nodding the HBOS deal through but managing to get jobs to be saved in Scotland but not in Halifax. The Maxwell flat:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/595923.stmThe Mortgage deal
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1556730/Flat-deal-will-mean-tax-savings-for-Brown.html He lies in his conference speech, can you expect him to be truthful about HBOS jobs? BROWN - "My Children are not props but people" http://ts17.gazettelive.co.uk/Gordeon-brown.jpg [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] Second picture found in the Daily Mail this time. How can anyone trust a word he says?
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32 - Oxondon:-
"....Media campaign....will result in us losing a statesman and gaining a showman and calling that progress"
It's not a media campaign that will result in us losing a statesman, it's the fact that Brown isn't a statesman and never will be!
The only people who've tried to portray him as a statesman ARE the media - ie Brown controlled propaganda machines (Daily Mirror etc).
Being a statesman involves more than trying to speak slowly and clearly and putting on a few false hand gestures!
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The PM tells Labour members it is their "duty" to focus on the problems facing Britain - What a numpty 60% of NuLabour members have and said they want Duff Gordon to Go. Whilst 52% of the public believe we are led by Crash Gordon. Hey Duff or Crash - it cant get more personal.
Have heard a strong rumour that the Glenrothes by-by-election will be held on November 6th, pity Thursday dosent fall a day earlier this year! it would be more appropriate.
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Brown may have other reasons for nodding the HBOS deal through but managing to get jobs to be saved in Scotland but not in Halifax.
The Maxwell flat:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/595923.stmThe Mortgage deal
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1556730/Flat-deal-will-mean-tax-savings-for-Brown.html
He lies in his conference speech, can you expect him to be truthful about HBOS jobs?
BROWN - "My Children are not props but people"
http://ts17.gazettelive.co.uk/Gordeon-brown.jpg
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] Second
picture found in the Daily Mail this time.
How can anyone trust a word he says?
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Great speech has filled me with hope and fairness for all. I just hope the press and media generally will now concentrate on what the public want to know - the future and what each party can achieve not what is going on in " Westminster Village " We the public need proper reporting in order to form a proper opinion please .
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@ 39 "and what we need is a serious, statesman-like Brown to show up this insubstantial slick PR man. "
Yeah, where have you been for the last year?
In the year+ long competition between the "insubstantial slick PR man" and the "statesman-like Brown" Brown has turned a 13 point lead into a 28 point deficit.
It seems that Cameron's Conservatives are clearly showing up the statesman LITE Brown.
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Pretty accurate me think #32. One problem though, Brown did go to Edinburgh Uni not exactly a low ranking University. The main
thing is we are all tired of Labour. Had enough. Same thing with the Conservatives from the 80's and 90's. We got tired of them. People forget that under the conservatives there were technically two recessions. The Tories had an identity crisis afte 97 because New Labour were so similar. Interesting speech by Brown. May re-unite the party. Andy Burnham has just praised the BBC and related the Paralympic Coverage to Labour values (you must be cringing at that). At the same time Brown is a far easier target to have a go at. They may have harmed the country in some ways but it seems each administration has. Who is to say the Tories would do any better? At least Scotland has more than a two party system
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He looks just like he is going to throw up just before he speaks, whilst most of us vomit when he actually talks.
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Gordon's idea of "fairness" is taking money from people who earn it and giving it to people who don't earn it.
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"Based on these unarguable facts, the future government of this country now have two choices, either massively slash spending or declare bankruptcy."
We don't need to do either.
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Reading the comments from both sides it's clear that the speech has not changed opinions, just perhaps re-inforced them.
Given that Labour are far behind in the polls surely this has to count as a failure.
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The lost eye in a rugby accident adversity'sympathy card was played yet again. How many of us are now not aware of this bit of historical fact? I have a treated eye tumour which could possibly spread and kill me. I don't bring it up with my friends or acquaintances at every opportunity to get them on side.
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#11
Wrong, the fleet was mainly kept at home because they were terrified that they may be lost. As for my political analysis, somehow I don't think so. Who was the novice he referred to David Cameron or David Millibland.
Kinnock on radio 5 what an obnoxious man, little bag carriers indeed. We were so lucky not to have the awful windbag as our Prime Minister. Why don't they just send him off into the sunset.
The tide will come in for labour, well a week is a long time in politics and it comes in and goes out. Time and tide wait for no man.
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73 Clive Jenkins
Weren't you once a union leader. I
Thought you had died and gone to Utopia.
Nice to have you back. The teachers need you - again!!!
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This man refused let Blair win his election for him as he knew he couldn't win it himself. He then refusedd to call an election on the basis that he would lose it and has shown that he cares more about having power than he does about using it wisely.
Why would anyone be interested in what he's got to say? It's either lies or nonsense anyway.
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#57
'we' do not have a problem. To an English person Eton is an example of one of the finest public schools in the land. (no, I didn't go to it or any other). We are proud of it and our heritage.
Unlike the newlabour party, the majority in this country have no desire to airbrush our heritage. It's part of who we are.
There is a reason why every university educated prime minister of the 20th century went to Oxford. It's part of our heritage. We, unlike you, have no desire to airbrush this heritage.
We like our country and are ready to vote out newlabour to get it back.
you don't like our country and see unfairness everywhere you look. Kindly return the country to its rightful owners by way of that general election that never was.
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Have your say on the BBC Politics webpage makes good reading.
I particularly like
"Gordon Brown makes George Bush look like Mr Wonderful!!!!"
Sandra, Wakefield
Wakefield, thats up north, aint it?
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@ 72. You cannot compare Major to Brown. Yes Major was (like Brown) a terrible leader. He was dull and uninspiring and was buffeted from pillar to post by internal dissent.
However at least he had the courage to call an election and he won a democratic mandate to rule and even won more votes in 1992 that Margaret Thatcher ever got.
In addition to this he managed to turn the economy into a resounding success before he left office.
As Brown used to keep banging on about the record number of continuous quarters of economic growth, it should be noted that he used "quarters" so people would not as easily realise that these quarters started 5 years BEFORE Major left office.
Blair's decision to keep spending to Conservative levels for the first 2 years of a labour administration in 1997 meant that the first seven years of continuous growth were down to John Major's Government, who ran the economy to create strong exports. Brown gave the BoE independence which allowed the bank to run more of the economy. The bank then did what banks always do; Encourage a large growth in credit. That bought Brown many more quarters of economic growth, but it was utterly unsustainable growth based on nothing but credit.
Now, we have the utter failure of Brown, only to willing to take credit for the economy that he inherited, but blaming every one else for the mess that he was ONE of the architects of.
Major was bad, but Brown is far far worse.
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So speech over.
GB throws in a couple of bribes one of which had already been announced.
Claims that he fixed the roof when the sun shone. I'll put a call into Rogue traders right away he needs his builders back if he thinks that is fixed.
He claims to be fair but has taxed the middle classes until they cant afford the cancer presriptions but dont worry he's giving them back.
Ta but you werent specific on which drugs Gordy, I bet the ones that really work will be deemed too expensive for use in England only the Scotch will get the good ones free. and maybe the welsh if they give you a few seats after the sweatys have gone independant.
It took a whole hour to spout more claptrap, oh well at least if he stays until 2010 we know the Labour party will be gone for the longest time in their history if not forever.
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My wife and I were talking about Gordons speech and you must note that she was a social worker during her long career. What she noticed was that Gordon loves referring to the caring professions and carers. The problem is that he is Prime Minister, by the very nature of his position he actually should not care, because if he really did then some of his decisions would never be implemented, they make the situation worse rather than better.
As for why people do things he referred to various people including soldiers who do things 'because they want to make a difference'. What many people have to realise is that if you ask most soldiers why they want to be soldiers it is, 'to kill people', unpalatable but true. So, yes they make a difference in Iraq and Afghanistan, they kill people.
I was actually quite angry when he referred to the miraculous treatment, which he got from the NHS, which saved his sight. Just as the NHS saved my leg when I broke my femur at an early age and resulted in my legs actually being stronger.
Why was I angry, because we know that his own daughter died, the NHS could not save her. What we all have to get used to is the fact that sometimes people just die. That's what happens and it is not the case that before the NHS people did not have their sight saved. Also the doctors, the professionals would have been trained before the NHS came into being.
I want clarification as to what he means by the 'energy dictatorship of oil' and what will he do about it. Did the conference seriously applaud when he referred to 'clean coal' and 'new nuclear power stations'.
This 'great speech' will unravel so quickly.
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Brown in his speech did make Labour sound a bit more socialist but that is more breaking from New Labour which wasn't socialist at all (which is why the Tories until David Cameron, suffered an identity crisis). What is sad reading some of the above comments is how some south of the Border praise Alec Salmond. It's not all peachy up here, what ever you are told. Alec Salmond is in charge of a minority government, a good thing really as it means everything is argued and has a chance of being voted out. We are all just bored of Labour. It's what did it for the Tories. Though not many on here it seems will be sad to lose Scotland, if Cameron gets in, I'm pretty sure Scotland will be lost in a wave of emotion. GB knows this but just doesn't know how to combat it. His attempts at "tub-thumping" (quoting Ben Wright) the Tories were a bit weak and a bit late.
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93 TAG
They did send him off to the sunset - the EU where he "earns" half a million+ a year doing a non-job.
Talk of fat cats and trough snorters.
His wife earns almost as much doing the same non-job.
Which all goes to prove that its not being PM that is the pinnacle of a career, its just a stepping stone to making a fortune on the gravy train. They are all at it, and get a government pension paid by us to boot.
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72:
You have given plenty of criticisms of Major - with which I agree - so here are (just) a few reasons why Brown is even worse:
- Bureaucracy - both as Chancellor and as PM, Brown has poured billions of our money into hiring more and more pen-pushers
- Pensions - one of his first acts was to plunder pension schemes
- 42 days - and other attacks on fundamental liberties
- Boom and bust - economic illiteracy; acting on the assumption that the economy would stay strong forever despite all evidence to the contrary; running government deficits in the good years, thereby leaving public finances overstretched when recession hit; blaming all problems on the global economy; claiming that we are 'best placed' to weather the recession (the OECD thinks differently); hiding publis sector debt as PFI
- Asset bubble - failing to act to curb asset inflation and escalating consumer debt; allowing houses to become unaffordable to first-time buyers; riding the wave of consumer indebtedness; courting the financial services sector until it went wrong; failures of regulation; doing nothing about absurdly overstretched mortgage lending
- Financing Blair's war in Iraq
- Idiocy over energy - no plans to replace our ageing power stations (and believe me, if nothing is done, the lights start going out in 2014)
- Including some total no-hopers in his cabinet
This is just for starters.
Today's speech was yet more of the same - nauseating, sentiment-driven, content-devoid waffle.
And, whilst I would be the last person to defend Major - who was pretty hopeless - at least he was elected!
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He was damn mealy mouthed saying it, but I think a fair summary is:-
SPEND, SPEND, SPEND
My personanl financial position is fine, I have been careful, prudent and sensible.
The thing that is going to screw me is paying off the debts (and new expenses) that Gordon Browns has lumbered (and is lumbering) the taxpayer with.
How about free university education?
I have raided my kids collage fees to pay for private secondry school because the local comprehensive is hopeless - taxing university education does not encourage oportunity or mobility...
Debit is EVIL. Forcing students into it is a very bad thing -- no wonder youngsters are so free and easy with credit, they get a taste of it forced down their throats by the state.
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H. Blears will have a broad grin.
Gordon, did Blair write that speech ?
If you want to be proud of the NHS and public services,if you want to be proud to be labour....then why O' why do you go half way...a little bit of labour..a little bit of nulabour
GB...it was the wrong speech, I expect the unions to beat the drum now! they have to, the unions must support their mandate on the energy issue.
A shot in the dark....the target has been missed.
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At 3:05pm on 23 Sep 2008, CliveJenkins wrote:
//I think a kind of mass 'group think' has taken hold of the public when it comes to Gordon Brown and it has little to do with policies, record and abilities and a lot to do with personality, communication and the desire to find a scape goat.//
Do you now? Well, you are wrong. We know a wrong 'un when we see one, and he's a wrong 'un. Not for office. No politician I have *ever* witnessed in my 57 years on this planet lies so badly and so obviously as Brown. Nope, mate, you are completely wrong.
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93 (TAG): "#11 Wrong, the fleet was mainly kept at home because they were terrified that they may be lost."
Surely the fleet was kept at home because there was nothing to fight? When there was, the fleet set out and fought at Jutland. How many dreadnoughts were sunk by submarines then?
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Here is Prime Minster Gordon Brown's speech as a "wordle" or tag cloud wich gives prominence to those words that he has most frequently used. This bit of fun, which also has a serious message, shows that "people" and "new" were his most-used words.
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Who on earth advised Gordon Brown to go smultz and personal.
This speech should have been about the mess the country's in and what he is going to do about it.
The really unbelievable part was his total denial that there is such a thing as boom and bust happening on his watch.
Here is a man who no longer knows who he really is or where he's going.
He had to perform today but his body language looked like that of a broken man who is certainly not fit enough to carry on as PM of this country.
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# 73
I am saying that English people, most of whom seem to be utterly disinterested in politics, are slowly beginning to understand that the native Scots and the Welsh are now electing people/parties who exclusively represent them i.e. the SNP and Plaid.
So, why should English people continue to elect politicians from these other countries?
It simply does not make any sense at all.
It is like asking Americans to elect Canadians to run their country.
I do not see what is bigoted about wanting your own people to represent you.
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Testing - a post with no html mark up or strange characters is not posting.
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Here is Prime Minster Gordon Brown's speech as a "wordle, or tag cloud. It gives prominence to those words which are most often used http://johnwelsh.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/prime-minster-gordon-browns-conference-speech-as-a-wordle/. It is a bit of fun but also has a serious intent in that it shows his most frequently used words were "people" and "new".
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I couldn't bear to watch. But from what little snippets I've picked up it seems that Gordon definitely writes his own material. There is no way anybody could have the same unfamiliarity with the truth or blatant hypocracy as Gordon Brown.
Did his speech seriously start by deriding politicians who use their family to gain media coverage? After being introduced by his wife?
The man isn't just delusional about history where the passage of time may have confused him somewhat. He's delusional from one minute to the next.
His solution to the UK's economic problems seems to be to award himself Iron Cross with gold leaf cluster for getting us into this disaster and then po-faced claim that he's just the man to get us out of this disaster. Meanwhile. Depending on what day it is or whether there's a full moon or not there is either a 'global disaster or no problem at all thanks to his brilliant economic stewardship.
The man is laughing in our face. He is treating us with utter contempt.
And he then has the gall to give it the old 'if it saves just one childs life' line. I was kind of hoping 300bn would save a fair few lives actually Gordon. You could start with your war in Iraq. Claims credit for saving 250,000 lives. Completely ignores the 250,000 or more lives wiped out when he hooked our cart to the yankee horse and invaded Iraq.
I'll have to post what I truly think in another comment. Because for sure it'll be moderated into space.
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#85 novaman49
Can I direct you to the BBC Parliament Channel? It's very informative and gives coverage of many debates in the two Houses and at various committees. It also has various summaries of political happenings both here and in the EU. It should contain most of what you require.
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#65 Constable_Shoe :
"Fact 1. Government spending is out of control
Fact 2. Government borrowing is now up to the limit. "
Your argument (if I can call it that) is based on these two 'facts'? The problem is that they are not really facts at all. I do not know the basis for your 'Fact 1', but I know of no evidence to support it. As for 'Fact 2', the level of government debt is now a bit lower (as a proportion of GDP), than it was at the end of the last Conservative government - currently 43.8% I think, as compared to something like 44.3% in April 1997. The present figure is inflated by the cost of the Northern Rock rescue, which most financial commentators think was the right thing to do and which adds about 6% to the total.
The 'limit' you refer to is a self-imposed ceiling set by Brown. For comparison, the equivalent figure in the US is now 80%, and in Europe 60% I think.
I am actually no great admirer of Brown as PM, but many of the posters on here ruin their case against him by making exaggerated claims about his record that are at best debatable, and at worst just silly or completely inaccurate, as if they were incontestable fact.
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Okay. What I really think.
Gordon Brown is delusional.
Gordon Brown is absolutely off his head.
The man is mad. There is no other explanation. He has no grip on reality at all. His brain has burned out through lack of sleep or years of bitter scheming to get rid of Tony Blair. Or something.
He is a clear and present danger to all our well-being.
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93, 107:
The Grand Fleet's main role was to impose a distant blockade, a policy which worked - it broke the German economy. The Fleet only got the chance to fight the High Seas Fleet once, at Jutland. This battle was inconclusive, but after that the German fleet remained imprisoned in the Jade, and never set sail again until it was interned.
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Good to hear about cancer patients. But what about NICE's disgraceful decision to deny people with Alzheimer's the anti-dementia drugs?
Shameful!
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I suspect John Major will be spoken of far more positively than Gordon Brown in the decades to come.
For a start Major won an election, unlike Brown.
Major had problems with his own party so he held a leadership election and won. Gordon "courage" Brown sacks anyone who criticises him. He demands total loyalty - yet plotted against the last elected prime minister for years.
On matters of the economy, yes Major/Lamont messed up big time with ERM, but just look at how much money Gordon has frittered away with his pension grab, selling gold, northern rock, PFI, etc.
Lastly, Major left the country's finances in a pretty good state. So good that Gordon got his prudent reputation from it, even though the reputation was essentially stolen from Ken Clarke. Do you think the economy will be in a better state when the tories take power in two years?
With the tories we were all sick of sleaze but I'd rather have that than a bankrupt country on its kneesm, a bloated public sector, rampant immigration, etc.
Gordon's speech was full of empty platitudes, taking credit where it wasn't due, avoiding blame where it was due, and overall little more than a plea to save his own political neck.
It didn't work.
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There's little to comment on about this speech which hasn't been ripped apart a million times already.
Nothing new to examine here, bring on Glenrothes then we'll have something to talk about and perhaps some progress one way or the other, at the moment this is just a state of limbo.
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No time for a novice...! Well - if life in Britain today is as a result of someone with vast economic experience (snigger!), then I'd welcome a novice! Even Kermit the Frog would've handled the country's finances better! More hot air, denial and waste of taxpayers money.
McMuppet is on his way out. I just wonder if it'll be after his Darling's pre-budget report with the revelation of the massive debt, or the loss of the by-election - whatever is first i guess.
Not a moment too soon.
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I am delighted to see that the "closed mind chorus" has been augmented by new voices sick and tired of the re-heated vomit spewed by Brown and Nu Labour.
Also, funny that there have been no comments from Chuck E Hogwash. I guess he can't be in two places at the same time.....
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So it's gone down really well then?
Not.
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Yes, as suspected.
A load of old tosh. And another spending sprey on the work shy at the expence of the working. Labour will provide state funded everything if you sit on your arse long enough.
Thats right Brown, keep handing out my hard earned money to the scroungers.
Labour are hated by the public.
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Brown is so contemptuously viewed by the country that anything he says is like mumbling into a void.
Totally meaningless to the majority of people in this country!
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I don't think it matters what he says, the press and the public are going to continue to pummel him.
Don't get me wrong I'm not a Brown supporter, his 'golden rule' was as big a work of fiction as Iraq's supposed weapons. But he's not as bad as we are making him out to be either.
At this time the country needs to trust their leader and we all need to be working together towards getting back on our feet. I don't think Gordon can build that trust, all his plans so far have been shot down almost immediately, therefore we need someone else.
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Nick,
the news from America is not good. Why should Americans bail out British and other European banks because they were stupid enough to buy the junk from American banks.
This is an absolute disaster because just look at the papers in 1928 and you will see how the government in the States tried to save the market from collapse. It failed then and it failed now.
Brown is delusional if he thinks that the Americans will listen to him. They are all going down. The Americans will look after themselves, they do not care about Europe because do we really care about Americans, trust me we don't.
Any politician in the States who says that they will incurr more debt and save the bankers will lose his/her seat. They are not stupid, remember i told you that Lehmans were selling off their junk at 22 cents in the dollar. I mean that means that this other junk is worth next to nothing. Abandon hope all you who enter here.
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# 55
Okay, that's clear enough. Your view is that the banking crisis is caused by too much Socialism. Cheers for that ... think we can carry on without U now.
Perhaps point something out first, though. It's for your own benefit.
U have now started doing that thing where U do a sentence and then shout FACT. That's bad because it's what people do when they're chanting something which they know is jaundiced personal opinion. U must have come across it many times yourself, right?
As in ... "This country is in an economic crisis because this socialist government has squandered all our money and committed us to paying for a million extra of their voters. FACT."
Global economic crisis, yes that's a fact, well done! Main causes? ... okay, thanks to U, we now know it's down to the UK government rather than anything untoward on Wall Street. Great (and again, thanks) but we're going to have to class that as opinion, and rather colourful and eccentric opinion at that, I'm sure U won't mind me saying.
Socialist Government? ... ooo I wish!
"Squandered all our money" ... well one person's squander is another's spend, I suppose. And, as U pointed out, it's OUR money not YOUR money. No facts there, I'm afraid, U9461192 (what is that number by the way? is it meaningful in some sense? is it the telephone number of an important small business in your area?).
So I guess, with the million extra voters, U mean public sector workers, yes? And it's a FACT that all public sector workers vote Labour, I suppose. Yeah, course, just like it's an actual cast iron fact that all private sector workers vote Tory. In fact, so many facts around here, I'm just falling over them. Can't move for all these facts, in fact.
Or maybe U meant unemployed people? single mothers? people on the sick? Well, whatever, same point applies. U have a tendency to think of people as being a bit like animals, don't U?
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From the market reaction you can see how the speech was taken; FTSE down over 2%. This means he hasn't down anything to calm the market.
He goes about fairness but why does he be fair and call an election as people are screaming for change, also why doesn't he treat people who are against him fairly.
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Can I suggest that Nick Clegg was much more impressive than Gordo. Not that I would vote for him.
And Cameron must be better; he couldn't be worse.
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He has sold our gold at a knock down price. He has dismantled and stolen our personal pensions. He goes missing when times get tough and he jibbed at calling an election he might have won.
The man is not just full of hot air, he is not even competent. He won't go now because his overwhelming vanity and stubbornness will not let him. He will simply brood until he receives the electoral thrashing he so richly deserves in 18 months time when us 'ordinary people' give our opinion of him as both chancellor and Prime Minister.
Disastrous.
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#92
I think it's fair enough that he refers to his own experiences - isn't that part of showing his vision and explaining why he personally is so committed to it?
And I think that Conservatives do refer to his rugby accident in quite low-handed 'dog-whistle' ways anyway (e.g. "that strange man in number 10" and other consistent playing on the fact that he is blind in one eye, and also lost the use of muscles in his face meaning he cannot smile properly).
And the Conservatives take every chance to personalise the political battle anyway - something Brown up until now has been reluctant to do (and even now he looks at their skills/experience rather than directly insulting his political opponents). See for example comment on "the strange man" in paragraph above, "Jonah Brown", and the lengthy dossier that Andy Coulson drew up on Brown full of personal attacks.
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A sad ...sad day when a labour home secretary....refers too Gb speech as the right of centre approach......Aaaaaarrrrgggggh
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re: 113 U9461192
"...it seems that Gordon definitely writes his own material. There is no way anybody could have the same unfamiliarity with the truth or blatant hypocracy as Gordon Brown..."
I beg to differ; I think someone slipped in a different speech at the last minute and he was too stupid to notice.
Maybe David Cameron having a laugh swapped Brown's notes for something else that made Brown sound like he thought he was God.
Was that really his speech, or was someone just having a laugh? Difficult to say. But whoever wrote it, it's played into the tories' hands perfectly because it showed everyone what a lying mad idiot Brown is.
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#117
Surely you must realise what the role of the fleet actually was meant to be. They were meant to have been based off the coast of Europe and bombard the enemy into submission. That is why earlier, before the war, the English and French agreed that the English fleet would operate in the north and that the French fleet would take care of the Med. That is why the French fleet was removed from Brest in 1912.
In the meantime don't fprget the unsinkable Titanic, no ship was unsinkable and what the navy suddenly became aware of was that the ships became unstable in rough seas, they were ok in some conditions but you could never guarantee the conditions. So, just like some of our planes can't fight and fly in certain conditions the ships of the fleet were similarily constrained. They couldn't fire their guns, they were useless. A waste of money and men.
It was down to Churchill, who authorised the change from coal fired ships to oil, look where that took us, dependence on middle east oil. Who do you think was the first to mobilise, yes Britain, Churchill kept the fleet at sea after a naval review. How do you think we got the soldiers so quickly to mainland Europe after war was eventually decalred.
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What a shocking example to use the terminally ill as an example for free prescription charges.
Think about it labour (for crying-out loud)
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currently 43.8% I think, as compared to something like 44.3% in April 1997. The present figure is inflated by the cost of the Northern Rock rescue, which most financial commentators think was the right thing to do and which adds about 6% to the total.
In which case there's another 6% to add to that to include all his off-balance sheet SIV/PFI stuff that he's so keen to slap the banks for but just spits in your face if you mention he's doing the same thing himself.
The 'limit' you refer to is a self-imposed ceiling set by Brown. For comparison, the equivalent figure in the US is now 80%, and in Europe 60% I think.
I can see why he'd want to compare the situation on that basis. I'm not an screaming alcoholic. Look, they drink even more than I do. Yes, whatever you say Mr Reed.
I'd however like to know how it is that while we were allegedly undergoing a smoothly managed 'prudent' no-boom-and-bust economy for the last 15 years that he practically doubled our national debt from 350bn in 1997 to 660bn at last count. That's not including NR by the way.
Now we're looking at 100bn+ a year for the next umpty years of this recession while we try and fund an extra million jobsworths that we managed perfectly well without prior to 2001.
30bn of that, his annual 'investment in infrastructure' staple for the past 6 or 8 years has been interest alone. So when he was saying 'investment in infrastructure' what he actually meant was 'interest on the monstrous debts I've run up'
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GB wants to help the poor, the sick, the young, the old; he wants a fairer Britain - all good stuff. Who can argue with any of that as an aspiration? His problem is that people have seen through him. He will put all of his ideals to one side for a quick political win eg funding middle class tax cuts by doubling the lowest tax band from 10p to 20p. "Stuff the poor, this will pull the rug from under Cameron!"
His and his party's problem is that the Country is broke, up to its eyes in debt and shortly to be totally submerged in the (G) Brownstuff.
I tell you what my friends, IMHO, whoever wins the next election will have to both cut spending and put taxes up.
Approaching the big 60 I've seen it all before. Labour always (eventually) run out of our money. It's just taken them longer than usual this time.
We needed Thatcher because the Country was broke and the Unions had too much power. We need Cameron because the Country is broke and Government has too much power. My fear is that Cameron is no Thatcher and lacks the strength of purpose to make the changes necessary.
I hope next week proves me wrong. I hope Cameron sets out a clear direction. I also hope he makes Hague Shadow Chancellor and demotes that twerp Osbourne - but that's for next week's blogs I guess.
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It was ok, but doesn't seem to have changed people's opinions of his governance according to radio interviews.
And the 'Best NHS' stuff still doesn't seem to hold water - here's a quote from the BBC webste today "A hospital has apologised to a mother who had to rely on her husband to deliver their baby because there was no midwife available."
Isn't that scary?
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Another day and more of the same.
Will it run?
This is the Labour Scrapheap Challenge....
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Same old same old, standing ovation, of course a chimpanzee could have made that speech and had a standing ovation from the labour faithfull - but when wil they and more important Gordan Brown wake up and smell the coffee?
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#39
Have to agree with that. I can't see how Brown is any worse than virtually any other politician around at the moment. Certainly I can't for the life of me understand how a lightweight like Cameron suddenly seems so attractive.
People are just unhappy that the 'good times' are over and the PM is as good a scapegoat as anyone.
And what's the point of all this ''Election now!' rot. It's not going to happen and even if it did it really, really won't make things any better in the long term.
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#137
What would happen, say, if in normal financial times (rather than crisis times) the Government were to nationalise one of the big 5 banks that turns a £1 billion/year profit.
Certainly the liabilities on the public books would increase e.g. deposits by members of the public, loans made to the bank by other financial institutions etc.
But balancing that would be a massive rise in assets on the public books e.g. loans to businesses and the public, holdings of financial securities.
It would be misleading to say debt has risen by the extent of the new liabilities as these are balanced by the assets.
This is why the £100 billion Northern Rock figure is false, and the cost to the taxpayer of the episode will be nowhere near this much.
Northern Rock has bad debts. It lent money to people for mortgages they could not afford. The extent of these bad debts depends on a) the extent of the decline in house prices; b) the number of people who are repossessed through being unable to meet their repayments. c) the average loan:value ratio of the Northern Rock loanbook
If both house prices decline by 100%, everyone with a mortgage with Northern Rock defaults on their mortgages and is repossessed, and the average loan:value ratio is 100%, your assertion debt has increased by £100 billion is correct.
In more realistic circumstances it is completely false and just scaremongering/trying to make an ideological point not based on the evidence.
Lets try a disastorous scenario (and this is properly disasterous - the dead rising up out of the ground kind of disasterous)
* House prices decline by 40%
* 20% of mortgage payers default
* Average loan to value ratio of defaulters is 90%
Total write off = 40% * 20% * 90% = 7.2% of total Northern Rock liabilities, or £7.2 billion.
A long way from the £100 billion you claim. And it ignores any profit from the other part of the lending book.
It is an open-ended debt though.
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And you are welcome to give me your take on what the right assumptions to make are if you think my 'disaster' scenario isn't quite bad enough.
You will still get nowhere near to the £100 billion you erroneously call debt.
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After being introduced by his wife:
“...my children are people not props”
Well, they are now.
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Some awful news on the Jasper front, chaps.
Seems a noisy Quango has opened up right next to his little cottage and old Jasper has had to move back to you know where. Self certification this time, though, so it's not quite so bad as before.
Spot of good news, though, is that they have a computer there now and so Jasper will still be able to write spicy things on the Bog about Gordon Brown whenever he feels like being a bit of a wild card.
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Leaders need to inspire confidence and they need to be liked...forget policies, in a crisis they are almost totally irrelevant.
Brown inspires no confidence and he is not a person people naturally warm to. He does not have the ability to 'connect' with people - he never has and never will. He is totally 'unmarketable' as a leader. Successful political eaders understand the power of 'showmanship'. It is 'the' essential ingredient...Brown doesn't understand what it is or how to use it.
Labour is going to lose the next election in a big way unless they get rid of Gordon Brown...quickly. MP's had better beetle back from 'conference' and start sharpening the knife or most them are soon going to be looking for a job!
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#142 "And what's the point of all this ''Election now!' rot. It's not going to happen and even if it did it really, really won't make things any better in the long term."
Depends upon your point of view - whichever party is in government after the next election, there are going to be hard choices to make on tax and spend, since Brown has been incredibly imprudent with the nation's finances. I would hope a Conservative Government would have a better idea of good housekeeping than the present Labour Government. Also, it is clear that the Conservatives will crack down on immigration in a way Labour never would - and limiting inward migration is so overdue.
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Brown on the economy and the Conservatives: "I'm all in favour of apprenticeships, but let me tell you this is no time for a novice."
How does this tally with his and other Labour ministers' support for Barack Obama?
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Gordon Brown on the economy and the Conservatives:"I'm all in favour of apprenticeships, but let me tell you this is no time for a novice."
How does that tally with his and other Labour ministers' support for Barack Obama?
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So he wants to build a fairer society?
Well he shouldn't have spent the last eleven years building an unfairer society, should he?
Brown's grief is just a symptom of a bigger issue, namely the failure of the Labour government to make public services work for the people.
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#137
And I look forward to the commitment that the Conservatives will make to implement a cash-limit for debt of £600 billion - or perhaps lower as this is apparantly an imprudent level (i.e. declining real terms, fast decline as proportion of GDP).
I have no idea why you seem to think this is a good idea.
Though saying that if we had operated on a personal debt level following your approach and limited everyone to a £30,000 mortgage regardless of their income (ok, Mr Big you have an income of £300,000, but we're still only letting you borrow your £30,000, same as Mr Small on the minimum wage), the housing bubble would not have happened.
Let's try it. Banks are only allowed to lend £30,000 to anyone regardless of their income, following Mr Us innovative approach.
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Excellent as far as I'm concerned. His light touch (AKA none at all) 'regulation' of the financial markets is going to be 'toughened up' using that toothless cur the FSA. We remember just how effectively they sat idly by and watched the demise of Northern Rock. It will soon be business as usual. Trebles all round!
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135:
I'm not altogether sure of the relevance here, but I really must correct you on the role of the Fleet. The Germans, who were numerically inferior, expected a close blockade; RN policy throughout was distant blockade, with the battleships based in the far north and reinforced by minefields.
Battleships could not possibly bombard a land-based army into submission; their guns could reach barely 10 miles inland at this time and, even in WWII with 30-deg elevation, could only reach 20 miles; even special-purpose monitors could not do that job. You are probably thinking of the crack-brained Baltic Project (cancelled, thank goodness), or possibly the Dardenelles.
The agreement with the French covered northern waters, including the North Sea and the Atlantic. Close blockade would have enabled the (smaller) German fleet to pick of RN units piece-meal, which was what the Germans hoped for. Distant blockade was intended to throttle Germany's trade. It worked.
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The speech was dull, duff and defeatist.
The British people need inspiration and energy to get them through the hangover of Gordon's decade long debt binge.
He is yesterday's man and a failure.
He isn't our future.
Margeret Thatcher was considered a novice once................
I rest my case!
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I thought that the speech showed just how out of touch he is with the reality of living in Britain now. Perhaps he has spent too long living in government accommodation putting his day to day expenses down on his allowances. Welcome to Fantasy land.
He tells us that Devolution was a success; does he really believe that the incipient breakup of the United Kingdom is an achievement? It has to be a view of a Scot if it is, rather than someone who believes in the UK.
The net taxpayers in the UK have been taxed enough, yet "Harry Pooter's" solution is to direct more spending at the public. While Government debt is now rapidly growing out of control he does nothing to address the yawning gap between what the government gets in taxes and what it spends. Add PFI and it comes to a Trillion pounds.
He makes cheap points about the increase in the Health Service knowing that it will get a standing ovation like it does at every Labour Conference yet ignores the fact that so much of that money was wasted.
"Harry Pooter "while chancellor squandered the taxpayers money. On that basis he has no right to claim that he has the experience to get us out of the problem because it is of his own making.
He talks like someone who has driven his friends car into a river then expects to be trusted to get it out again.
I despair of the man and what he has done for Britain.
Will you please go away.
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He gave a big thank you the NHS staff, but Labour has put more NHS jobs out to private companies and is privatising the NHS more than any other set of politicians. Labour has allowed staffing levels to become so dire because of the dissatisfaction of staff that UK trained staff are leaving in droves. Many skilled doctors, nurses, technicians, radiographers and profusionists are migrating to Australia, NZ, Canada and the USA where they are properly valued. Bed numbers are reducing; weekend GP cover is so low and dangerous in many areas. A neighbour of mine died of a heart attack in the street over a weekend a few months ago, and there was no doctor in our town, on duty to certify his death, let alone come out to help all the neighbours that tried to save him.
I personally know two doctors, one a surgeon and another an anaesthetist who have packed up and left for NZ. There they are joining many others of our skilled people, all because of Labours NHS plans and its lies over PFI funding.
Labour has bankrupted the country and since they came into power they slowly spent the surplus money, so that it was only a matter of time before it went bust.
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115# jimrant
In the absence of cuts in public spending, public borrowing next year could be well over 6% of GDP, way above anything we've seen since the early 1990s. The Treasury itself is in something of a funk about the outlook for the public finances.
That would be the record held by John Major in 1993 the highest since WWII. So Crash Gordon is going to go down in history as the PM with the largest post-war debt and the numpty is talking about borrowing more.
You could not make this up even if you tried.
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I listened to his speech today - not one word about controlling immigration, not one word about who was going to pay for the borrowed £billions. Big promises to continue throwing money at dole families. I have nothing against helping out low earners. They talk about family values then promise funds to put 2 year olds into nurseries. These babies should be at home with a parent not pushed off for anyone to bring them up so the parent has no excuse not to go to work. Methinks he speaks with forked tongue. I do agree with him though re no time to put a novice in charge. Besides I completely went off Milliband after his speech, talk about smiling with the knife behind your back, what a cr--p.
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137
What would happen, say, if in normal financial times (rather than crisis times) the Government were to nationalise one of the big 5 banks that turns a ?1 billion/year profit.
No flies on me guv. I was quoting from another post. Hence the italics. But if putting the 100bn on the national debt for now is the 'right' thing to do then it would surely be even more 'right' to add on all that PFI stuff. Wouldn't you think? Instead of hiding it all over the shop.
The real catastrophe though is the economic mismanagement that thought that in the good times (RIP) it would be a tip-top idea to increase taxes and also increase borrowing. Then squander all that money hiring one million extra make-weight jobs to hide one million people who were previously employed at the limit of their mental capacity claiming the dole. And then to somehow assume that the rest of the economy would keep on swelling to enable taxes to catch up and actually balance the books.
All that happened as is now clear to even those who cannot bear to look is that all the last decade of 'miracle' economics was simple massive public and private debt rattling about the place in our consumer society. Now that we can no longer borrow any more, because our collateral is no good, based as it was on an unsustainable housing bubble we find that we're suddenly not as rich and not as clever as Gordon has been telling us.
But we're still stuck with that extra million ex-dolies, clip-boards in hand, ready to justify their existence just as soon as they have another meeting. Or policy review. Or diversity awareness team-build.
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# 96 Robin
... "We do not have a problem. To an English person Eton is an example of one of the finest public schools in the land. (no, I didn't go to it or any other). We are proud of it and our heritage" ...
So, the propagation of unearned privilege from one generation to the next is a proud part of our heritage is it, Robin? Something we should be fighting to hang to, is that what you're saying?
You surpass yourself. I'm actually in awe of you now.
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My mind is already made up; no amount of spin doctored speech and vague promises will alter the fact that I will vote Conservative and will urge my family and friends to do the same.
It hasn't been reported on this website but the Metropolitan Police have refused to investigate the alleged breaches of Data Protection law by BT working with Phorm. The government has stalled on this issue unacceptably, passing it around like some unpleasant parcel which they hope will disappear.
Now the government are saying that all 14 year olds will have ID cards foisted on them.
If this government was "listening" as it claims to be it would have scrapped ID cards and acted against BT and Phorm. It hasn't.
I could go on about the litany of shame and failure of this government. Failing education, health provision and law enforcement - although they have introduced over 3600 new offences I feel no safer now than before.
Brown lacks any kind of presence in my view. As for Milliband, Millibland would be a more appropriate name.
Ultimately there is no substance behind the facade of spin from this government. It is time they were removed from power.
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Was Gordon supposed to make me feel physically sick during his speechifying?
The thing that most disgusts me about this, I hesitate to call him a man - better just policitican, is the sheer number of caveats with which every grain of over promoted good news is parcelled with. Even the 10p tax band removal was presented as somehow helping the poor, when in fact it only provided people with help on the government's terms, forcing the worst off to come cap in hand to be 'assessed' as to their worthiness by the government, when before that wouldn't have been the case.
Similarly those plans to force people to quit smoking before providing them with treatment. While I'm not a smoker and think it is a terrible habit (one which the hypocritical government gets a lot of money from, much like alcohol), I think it is even more disgusting to suggest that the ill can be assessed as to their worth before being given access to treatment (especially in light of the money made, as mentioned above).
The announcement that people with cancer will be given free treatment suggests that you need to be terminal with a media friendly disease before you are provided with help.
Then we get into the other caveats - the sensible seeming ideas that are crippled by their provisos. The stamp duty 'holiday' - what happens when this 'holiday' ends and everyone is suddenly up in arms at their tabs being called? Somehow I don't think Gordon or the government care.
The ban on short selling of stocks....for three months or so. Don't want to frighten the speculators by banning outright their favourite past time, eh Mr. B?
It is next to useless, even in short termism terms, since not enough time is going to elapsed to let even the stupidest person forget the crisis.
All of this speaks to the utter contempt with which the country is currently held by its rulers.
What we are seeing is a government more than willing to destroy their country if they cannot continue to stay in power. As much as I despise the Conservatives (even before they destroyed their own party to become New Conservative Lite much as New Labour destroyed their base to become Tory Lite) it is becoming more important to lose the current governors before they have the chance to do any more damage on their oblivious course to a 2010 defeat. There's too much at stake, even if a Camero(o)n government will be just as bad in many ways.
On the issue of Gordon being the person with experience (since he was the one at the helm and who steered the ship on a direct course for the storm after letting all the lifeboats loose) to lead us through a financial crisis, I'm sorry but if an obviously drunk person crashes a car you don't put them back in the driving seat and wish them the best on their drive home - you stop them immediately for their own safety and the safety of others.
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# 145 Max
Cheap (er than usual) point, that.
Wife chose to marry politician, so part of the circus. Children didn't. Valid distinction, there, between wife and kids, no?
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Spend, spend, spend!
more waste ,waste waste!
This guy may be sincere but what was he doing for the previous 10 years?
Independance for Northern Ireland what about us poor English?
Several times I thought he had finished but no, it went on and on and on!
Gordon just doesn't know to quit while he's ahead, just as he does not know when you are in a hole stop digging!
What did he do to stop the banks lending to people who we all know could not afford to repay?
Now we all have to suffer
Call this FAIR??????????????????
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And another thing - it's bad enough having to listen to the verbal rubbish. Why do we need the insufferable rock music as well?
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It's interesting to note that at about half-past four this afternoon the BBC were saying that Mr Brown's reference to "amateurs" was referring to the lack of experience of George "Tuck shop" Osborne. An hour and a half later it was a dig at Mr Milliband! Do we deduce from this that the BBC were suitably impressed with the speech but need to continue their anti-Brown campaign so they re-edited Ministry-of-Truth style. Do stick to reporting.
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I do hope that Brown's speech confirms his leadership until the General Election.
This will ensure Nu Labour's demise.
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# 160
That is quite a bit better than "U"sual ... soiled slightly by the childish references to clipboards, dolies, and (oh dear, not again!) diversity advisors but, still, a solid B I'm happy to say.
Are U pleased? Hope so! Hey, let's guard against complacency, though. It would be disappointing if, having made some good progress, U now slip back to how it was before.
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The vitriol being spouted about Gordon Brown in these comments is totally irrational.
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sagamix @164 wrote:
# 145 Max
Cheap (er than usual) point, that.
Wife chose to marry politician, so part of the circus. Children didn't. Valid distinction, there, between wife and kids, no?
No: You misread me (intentionally perhaps?)
It was Brown, the father, who brought up the subject of his children.
By stating they were not 'props' (and thus insinuating that some other people's children are), he has turned them into political props.
Typical Brown: opening his mouth before engaging critical faculties.
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saga, robin
It gets a bit sad when we squabble about whether Eton should be turned into a comprehensive.
Worth remembering that "public" schools originated and were founded by wealthy individuals or associations, to educate clever members of the public, whether rich or poor. Quite a lot of famous historical names came from the poor who could not otherwise have gained an education.
It was one of the great acts of political spite to abolish (or attempt to abolish) grammar schools. Thatcher continued a Lobour policy. As "public" schools became fee-paying, grammar schools offered a way forward for people of talent across the social spectrum.
The creation of comprehensives sounded like a great way to allow all to be exposed to the best teaching on offer.
Maybe it would have, had teaching educationalists not feared the impact of "success" or "failure" on children.
It's true that some children couldn't cope with some "O" levels. That didn't mean that over decades, exams were created to allow virtually anyone who could write their name would be able to "succeed".
And now, A levels are so weakened by modularisation, re-takes etc that companies have no idea whether a person with 3 As actually understands anything. If you teach to the test, it's pretty easy to gain benefits.
To educate is rather different.
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Gordon Brown's speech was his own eulogy to a failed Prime Minister who cannot bring himself to do the right thing and call a general election. NuLabour politicians with any "savvy" know that Gordon Brown has lost so much support that even a leadership election will not stop the rot. Only the voters can decide who should be in charge right now and it may well be a hung parliament? Then there would have to be cross party concensus on all the serious issues including the economy, public utilities, Iraq and Afghanistan, the NHS and education, immigration and the EU constitution. The country needs to be clear about what are the majority views and no single party can get us back on track.
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Let's begin by giving a cheer to the announcement that cancer patients will no longer have to pay prescription charges from next year. That is a help. However, I will stop cheering at that point.
I think we can all agree that this was a good conference speech. It would have to be rousing to get the Labour party out there on the streets pounding the pavements in all weathers after all.
It looks like Gordon Brown has turned a corner. He has learned to act in order to save his premiership and the fortunes of the Labour party. Why act? Well, the speech contained humour, candour, emotion, anger, true feelings and rousing pledges and promises right up to 2050. I'm about the same age as Gordon and I doubt either of us will live to see carbon emissions cut by 80%. There were a lot of long term promises as if he was gong to see them through all by himself. Well, we were all looking for stability.
What am I going to gripe about? Well, the bit about the 10p. He felt “stung”, that he had betrayed working people. Well, we have all felt stung prime minister, stung by increased taxes. But let's have a think about this. He announced the 10p tax level as removed as he announced the lowering to 20p of the basic rate of tax – if you saw this on TV then you will recall the deafening roars of approval from his team. But he was paying for the cut to the basic rate of tax to 20p by removing the 10p tax. There is no doubt about that. There is no mistake here, one was to fund the other, the low paid were to fund the higher paid. GB had ministers inform him and explain to him that this would hit the low paid most for almost a year and then, because the tax change was so close to local elections, he yielded and admitted the mistake. Of course it was already too late, the low paid workers – core Labour voters – voted against Labour big style.
How long did it take the other political parties to see the error of his ways and see that this tax change would affect the low paid – well it took the Lib Dems about ten minutes. They told him as he sat down after he delivered his final budget. Yes, it took him a year to admit that he had made a mistake – the mistake was to delay a tax change for a year so he could try to disown it. The mistake was to put the tax change so close to a local election. It was not ever a mistake to tax the low paid. So today he ate a very small piece of humble pie to disguise the truth, his arrogance, his deceit. But now at least he can act with some feeling that he was “stung”.
He did not say sorry for not doing more about the Council tax. Why should he? Well, in 2005, the last election year, he gave £200 to pensioners struggling to pay their Council tax bills. But he has done nothing of significance since to lessen this tax burden. The £200 was a bribe, that's all. He has not apologised for failing to address a continuing need. He has not even said he will take a look at this awful tax.
He has given away a lot of money now though. Free places in nursery for 2 year olds. Free broadband. There was a lot of free stuff. But I think we are wise to what free actually means. It does not mean increased taxes. No. Not yet. The economic cycle is in the wrong phase (or something). No, the additional taxes will be after the next election. This man is out to buy votes, by speeches, by acting, by freebies – but he does not say when we will pay for all this free stuff, it's all on a big credit card.
Has GB changed? Yes. Now he is a proper politician, he can act.
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For a start Major won an election, unlike Brown.
Please can we stop mumbling about that. Labour won the election, we vote the party not the leader of said party.
If you have a problem with the leader they've chosen and the PM picked, send your letters to HM The Queen and she can use her executive power to remove Brown and declare an election.
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The next general election is not, and should not be, a referendum on Gordon Brown. The stakes are too high in the current climate to disregard the Labour Party just because of Mr Brown. A responsible electorate would make the Conservative party earn the right to form the next government. (Parties should earn the right to form governments by defeating their opponents in a debate on policy). An irresponsible electorate would hand the keys to number 10 to the conservatives, without scrutinising policy, just because it does not like MR B. In short if we disregard the labour party now, we could very easily sleepwalk into disaster...
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#160
I note you choose not to respond to the point I was making.
I take it that means that you do not dispute the £100 billion Northern Rock-associated debt you referred to earlier is false, and that even in the most catastrophic circumstances that can be thought of, the losses to the state will not top £7 billion.
I thank you, though I note you also choose not to acknowledge you were wrong.
(the independent IFS make the same point as me i.e. the impact is temporary and most/all of the liabilities are likely to be recovered - I quote them a lot as they tend not to be favourable to the current Government in their general outlook, and ideologically favour balanced budgets and are quick to pick up on the efficiency impacts of taxes so hopefully right-wingers can trust what they say [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator])
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I think it's probably fair to say that Gordon Brown bought himself some time as far as The Labour faithful are concerned. He certainly saw off the implied challenge by the young upstart David Milliband who performed very poorly. Judging by TV interviews with ordinary families and floating voters they appear however to have seen through the false smiles and the rhetoric. They just want him to do something for their plight instead of persisting with gimmicks and they still blame him for not taking appropriate policy action when he was Chancellor of The Exchequer. The Labour hierarchy have been blaming David cameron of hiding. He is likely to tear into Brown's record at The Conservative Conference and the feathers are bound to fly. It'll be interesting to see how he reacts to all the desperate criticism directed at him by Labour hardliners
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# 172 FOM
Don't disagree with much of that. For me, the education issue is far more important than any other. Health, for example, gets a lot of focus, but I don't really care that much if some people get better health care than others. Why not? Because it doesn't perpetuate unfairness from one generation to the next in the way that inequality in education does.
If you believe in equality of opportunity, if you're serious about it, then you need to provide a high quality education to all children, regardless of wealth and family background. It's the single most important thing that you have to do. Only way for it to happen is for schools to be 100% in the state sector. There can be no place for fee paying schools. As long as they exist in parallel with state schools, the system as a whole will never meet the goal.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not some sort of trendy educationist. I'm all for rigorous academic standards, traditional teaching methods, streaming, properly challenging exams, all that sort of thing. It's just that it has to be 100% state sector and therefore equally good for all. We need to upgrade the teaching profession, pay them more, make it a prestige profession again, attract the best people and then let them teach without further interference. If we do this, we will see enormous economic and social benefits.
I know it's a big thing to say to parents that they're forbidden to spend their own money on giving their kids the best start in life but that is the whole point I'm afraid. As long as you allow parents to do that, you will never have equality of opportunity.
It is opportunity I'm talking about here, not equality of outcome. People will always do different things in life to varying degrees of success and failure and amen to that. But your outcomes should be determined mainly by your own abilities and hard work, not by the happy (or otherwise) accident of wealth and family background.
I'm sure that many people rank the value of "personal freedom" higher than equality of opportunity and, furthermore, they would equate personal freedom with being able to spend their own money on their own kids education, if they want to. Well, that's fine and I respect that ... I disagree because equality of opportunity, for me, trumps all other considerations. I'm into personal freedom too, of course I am, but do we really have freedom when life chances are so predetermined? I don't think we do.
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# 171
Gee Max, I'd say you're being a bit hard and unforgiving with that one ... would hate to get on your wrong side!
Are you known generally as being a bit hard and, you know, unforgiving?
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sagamix @171,
Yep! I even resent the fact that he was allowed to procreate.
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Wow.
Just curious ... if somebody said they were glad that Maggie Thatcher has got Alzheimer's, what would you make of them?
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Sagamix,
Simple: I like and admire Maggie Thatcher.
I loath Brown.
BTW, I'm sure that many lefties are delighted that Thatcher is suffering from Alzheimers. They do not, of course, recognise that their ideology is just as damaging to the body politic.
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I'm sorry Max but I didn't ask you what you thought of Maggie. Question was what you would think of someone who felt pleased that she was suffering with an awful illness in her declining years.
It's okay, I think I know why you dodged it and I guess I don't blame you. Fine for us to leave it there.
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sagamix,
I didn't mean to dodge giving a straight answer.
I like maggie, so I'm not 'best pleased' at anyone who takes pleasure from her misfortune.
On the other hand, I absolutely loath Brown and am happy to 'celebrate' any personal misfortune that comes his way.
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So, you're admiting to liking and admiring a woman whose philosophy was damaging to the body politic, yet loath Brown? There's a lack of logical integrity to that comment which is giving off a whiff of bullshit. You may benefit from revising your position.
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Chuck @ 186,
My inept/hurried post may have given some the impression that I believe that Maggie's philosophy was damaging to the body politic. (Thank you for drawing my attention to this).
For clarification: I am of the opinion that Thatcher was the salvation of Britain in the 1980s and that all Britain's achievements since are directly attributable to her fundamental reshaping of the political and economic landscape - nationally and (with Reagan) internationally.
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re: 175 Hiddenranbir
"Labour won the election, we vote the party not the leader of said party."
Technically correct, but in most people's eyes not morally justifiable.
Not only did the public not vote for Brown, but neither did his own colleagues (bullying your colleagues into submission so that you're the only candidate left allowed to stand doesn't count as an election, at least not in a moral sense).
Blair said he's serve a full term, and he got a mandate for that from the public, but Brown ousted him well before that (again, not exactly democratic).
I'm massively pleased that Brown bottled a general election a year ago; if he'd managed to remain in power for 5 years instead of just 2 or 3, imagine what horrors he'd be able to inflict on the economy; the mind boggles. At least now everyone knows what his "vision" is, and what his inabilities are, so in 2010 they'll be able to vote with all the facts at their disposal.
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176. randers20: A responsible electorate would make the Conservative party earn the right to form the next government.
I'd hope they'd require the same from every candidate and not just from the Conservatives. BTW since when has there been a responsibility prequalification to exercising the right to vote?
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You're digging a hole.
Let go, dear.
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Never did a speech make more obvious the clear rift between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
Mr Brown made not a mention of Scotland or any Scottish policies.
What our friends in England do not appreciate is that Scotland wants Full fiscal autonomy and to manage it's own affairs so that there will be no need for subsidy from the rest of the UK - no Barnett and nowest Lothian question.
We would still have the Union of the Crowns so we would remain part of the UK.
Good news for everybody
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Chuck_E_Hardwidge @190 wrote:
"You're digging a hole".
Of course I am: we've got to dump the leprous corpse of this government somewhere safe.
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Blair said he's serve a full term,
Except we also knew he wasn't going to. We all wanted him to go anyway because of Iraq and how he pandered to the rich people in exchange for titles, an investigation he thumped away.
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re: 193 Hiddenranbir
I didn't really want Blair to go, because the alternative was worse; it was a case of choosing the lesser of 2 evils; personally I think the labour party chose the wrong one.
I'd rather have someone in charge who did the occasional "favour", than someone who's just simply incompetent at everything they do.
Personally I think Blair should have fired Brown back in 1997 when he started blocking all the reforms that Blair wanted to do; I think not firing Brown back then was his biggest mistake, because without Brown dragging his ideas of reform down he would have made a monumental positive difference to the country.
(I didn't agree with him about iraq though, but then again all leaders have some down sides)
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