Cleaning up
So the prime minister is promising to clean up the financial system. He is calling for global action. He intervened directly, to facilitate the Lloyds takeover of HBOS.
Thus, his economic strategy and his political strategy have become aligned. The extraordinary economic events of the past few days have written the script for his conference next week and for a visit to New York which will follow it.
John Prescott read the script this morning when he declared that Brown was the man with the economic experience and the international status to see us through. In the short term, at least, Wall Street may well have saved Gordon, as I suggested earlier this week.
The long-term political consequences depend on a series of questions that simply cannot be answered yet:
- Will voters blame Labour for the events happening on their watch or can they be convinced that only a party of the left will "clean up" the City?
- Will economic fear lead voters to rate experience above newness and change? And, crucially:
- Will the fallout of this crisis have ended before the next election or will we still being feeling it?
Above all, this crisis is a reminder to political pundits of the sheer unpredictability of the future.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~45~RS~)
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1) Will voters blame Labour for the events happening on their watch or can they be convinced that only a party of the left will "clean up" the City?
2) Will economic fear lead voters to rate experience above newness and change? And, crucially:
3) Will the fallout of this crisis have ended before the next election or will we still being feeling it?
1) Of course they'll blame the man who was in charge of the finances for 10 years and who did nothing. If Brown can still try and bash the Cameron for the ERM I think you'll find that everyone else can blame Brown for this mess
2) No, they'll go for newness and change as they'll see what Brown's experience got us into.
3) No and yes (if you believe TAG) Yes and No in my humble opinion.
Browns stewardship has partially been at fault in leading us to this situation, the public are tired of labour, labour are out of ideas and are riven by dissent, an economic upturn didnt save the tories in 1997 and an upturn by 2010 will not save this government because they have been seen to be fallible, incompetant, rudderless and gutless.
In my humble opinion of course
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Gordon Brown's job is to safeguard the interests of this country. On his own he is useless but I suspect we have all the best brains and experience on full alert during this critical time.
All he has to do is appear and try to talk sense.
No man is big enough or clever enough to sort this one out.
It has definately reached a point where we are stuck with him regardless so we have to hope those behind the scenes who are working on this know what they are doing.
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I am really taken aback by some of your recent posts. Brown's future will be determined by MP's forming a judgement on whether he can win the next election. There is no long term about it. The election is only 18mths away. The public's mind is made up.
The reason that Brown has not been dumped up to now is the lack of an alternative with a plausible narrative and a strategy that works. It is nothing to do the economic turbulence of this week.
Thatcher was overthrown in the lead up to a war. There is only one thing stopping the Labour party, the willingness to do so.
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So Gord intervened and saved the world did he? I'm sure the merger was entirely his idea, that he chaired all discussions, wrote up the merger agreement and all before breakfast when he started to draw up plans to retrospectively clean up the financial system. I'd like to see what HBOS and Lloyds have to say in private about this shameless opportunism? Silence the price of no investigation by the Competition Commission?
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"Lehman brothers is a great company today that can both look backwards with pride and look forwards with hope. And in wishing Lehman Brothers the success it deserves for its future, let me thank you for the privilege of being here and formally declare this new building open."
Gordon Brown, opening Lehman Brothers' new Europen HQ in Canary Wharf, 5th April 2004.
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Nick,
You say "In the short term, at least, Wall Street may well have saved Gordon".
At what price?
Brown's political career is not worth tuppence, let alone Billions of pounds and possibly tens of thousands of jobs lost.
The truth is that whatever 'happened' - and whomever is (or is not) to blame - it has happened on Brown' watch. (And let's not forget his 'abolition' of boom and bust of which he has boasted endlessly. Funny: I've not heard him repeat that one in recent days....)
He is a Jonah and he should go. (
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Brown promises to clean up the financial system!
So complete meltdown and total annihilation guaranteed then.
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11 years ago in 2008 I remember Nick Robinson blogging on the plan to belatedly clean up financial services ? I wonder if some of the new words we use today could have been applied to that situation back then - for instance a 'Brownrun'?
Today Gordon is still PM and Nick has been doing a piece on all the new words that have made it into the Oxford English Dictionary during 2020:
Blogwonk - a diehard fanatic with fixated political ideas who seeks to censor all blog comments that oppose their view of the political landscape by referring comments to moderators.
Brownrun - a group of people that set off in a direction to find that the leader has no idea where they are heading, resulting in group wide terror and the soiling of underwear.
Taxstorm - a governmental policy to aggressively maximise tax revenues through a complex array of direct, indirect and stealth taxes, levies and penalties whilst at the same time appearing benevolent and caring through provision of tax credits which are purposefully hard to find, understand or claim.
Lagging - The use of gimmicks to divert peoples attention from a major predictable problem that you haven?t prepared for such as a financial boom and bust. Derivation of the term Blagging.
Plotocracy - government of the people by a rabble of individuals who mistrust each other and seek to continually change leader by destabilising the current leader, whilst following certain practices more associated with an autocracy i.e. the avoidance of elections.
Skewering - the art of blurring statistics, in circumstances where data has been collected over a long period, by manipulating all future measures to look favourable without the need of actually delivering any positive and discernable change in reality.
Topload - A policy of radical reform of a service through increasing the number of workers deployed, where the number of new roles such as managers, consultants, administrators and office workers should out number the increase in the quantity of and financial investment in frontline roles such as nurses, doctors, police, teachers and soldiers by a ratio of about 70 to 30.
Which goes some way to decoding this text message I received the other day:
"This plotocratic government have unleashed an 11 year taxstorm on us and have been skewering to cover up their toploading. Now they've been caught lagging us and the blogwonk next to me still hasn't noticed that we are all on the brownrun from hell. P.S. Fancy a pint?"
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This is comment 10 and stiil all the previous ones are awaiting moderation at 2.13 pm!
The only issue at the next election will be the scale of Labour's huge election defeat.
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Hold on, Nick. After 11 years of inaction and apathy from government in the face of the rise of hedge funds, wholesale debt on bank balance sheets, concerted shorting in equities markets, more and more evidence of collusive practices and banking industry concentration now - NOW - Mr Brown declares it is time to 'clean up the City' ?
This is arrogance gone mad. For 10 of those 11 years the man was even Chancellor for heaven's sake!
Talk about arrriving late at the party. He's barely out of the car...
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A small but particularly dense group of blogwonks from the past has caused a black hole to form, creating a portal in the space time continuum. Words from the blogosphere from 2020 are leaching onto the 2008 blog.... (and to think the people of the day were worried about CERN):
Diresale - the sale of a valuable stable asset at the bottom of the market during the good times, that is normally reserved to underpin loans that provide liquidity and stability during bad times as a mechanism to prevent, for instance, the firesale of large organisations such as banks.
Zpptttttpppp.... oh beardy blogwonks of the past.... will you ever learn?...... Zptpptptpppzz.... SPACE TIME PORTAL CLOSED
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The Government allowed this deal to go ahead as long as Lloyds and HBOS kept lending levels high. Surely that is just madness? And even if they manage to keep the money moving why has the Government so readily allowed for competition laws to be so casually swept aside? Llyods have been trying to buy HBOS for years and now Brown has given them exactly what they wanted (for a lot cheaper than they would have otherwise gotten it had he followed Americas example and stopped short-selling) just to give him a few soundbites for his speech next week. "He [Brown] told the BBC: "I think we've got to look at where there has been irresponsible behaviour and I've said for some time that we need reforms in the system." Well you were Chancellor for 10 years you dithering idiot; why didnt you do something about it then?
We will regret this in years down the line, and if the Labour party had any guts left it would be crying foul just as loudly now as it would had a Conservative Government done this. Althought maybe years down the line we will see the irony that had the BoE been giving money away as though it were candy when Northern Rock were in trouble we wouldnt be in this situation of allowing foul practice now.
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What on Earth is the point of John Prescott going on to the radio and lecturing about... Oh hold on! What on Earth is the point of John Prescott?
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Nick, you ask interesting questions..
Will voters blame Labour for the events happening on their watch or can they be convinced that only a party of the left will "clean up" the City?
Not for the events themselves...but certainly for the inability to set aside in good times for the rainy day.
Will economic fear lead voters to rate experience above newness and change?
I think the majority of voters had long since decided enough was enough before this crisis hit. Lets face it, it's been one disaster after another. There's no appetite to cut more slack.
Will the fallout of this crisis have ended before the next election or will we still being feeling it?
A long spell in the political wilderness awaits!
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Those are all relevant factors I'm sure, but in my view the way the 'media' report/invent the news will be at least equally important.
The whole tenor of recent reporting has been that Brown is in some way responsible for the global financial turmoil, as if his policies could somehow have brought about either the downfall of major US institutions, or insulated the UK from the consequences. For example, on the BBC News Channel this morning Alistar Darling was being interviewed by a female presenter whose name I do not know. He was obviously, and quite rightly, completely taken aback when she asked him why, if this was a global problem, UK banks were being disproportionately affected - so isn't the government (sorry, 'this government') to blame? The mind boggled.
I have come to expect this sort of silliness from certain contributors to this blog, but if the same mindset has started to infect the BBC newsroom then Brown is certainly doomed.
I am not personally much enamoured of Brown, and his general performance over the past year has not been good, but a global problem needs an international response. In that context, there is no question in my mind but that Brown is the current UK politician with the experience and international standing best placed to help to achieve the result the world needs.
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The obvious question here is, that if Gordon Brown has only just realised that the banks have been lending irresponsibly, then what on earth has he been doing for the last 11 years?
This is exactly the proof that all you labour voters out there were asking for when you ask "what's he done wrong?" - he's admitted it; he's openly admitted that he didn't understand, monitor, or regulate any of the financial systems during his 10 year stint as chancellor or during his 1 year stint as PM.
If that's not a case of reckless negligence and a good enough reason to physically eject him out of power, then I don't know what is.
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Wall Street hasn't saved Brown rather the knowledge that Labour are well and truly doomed at the next election. This means that existing MPs believe that whoever takes over will suffer a quick exit after a General Election.
That being the case, any potential candidates for the main job will keep their powder dry and then take over when Brown's given the boot.
Many posters have said, the MP's are looking at 2ish more years of salary against almost certain unemployment andd are voting wallet.
Of course, I could be wrong. Our MPs could be bound by principle and do what's right for the country.....
Oh, what AM I saying?!?!?!?!
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My guess is that the voting public will see fat bankers and speculators feeding their pension portfolio's to the brim before declaring themsrlves bankrupt.
Tories and this ilk go hand in hand.
Socialism to the rescue, as is the norm, when 20th Century lessons are once again enacted.
If it wasn't for a Labour Party of Government, what would we have as an alternative to decency, the friend of the fat banker and speculator?
Cameron has gone AWOL. Good!
Gary
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'Clean up the city?' It's a little late for that methinks. Surely all this can't have come as a surprise. Too much time mismanaging whelk stalls I guess.
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so the door is being shut. but the horse has bolted.
question nick - if we still had our gold reserves, could the government have provided loans to hbos and negated the merger (and now probable job losses as duplication of roles between banks are removed)???
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You also predicted the same thing a few days back, just before a whole load of MP's rebelled including a minister. In fact Nick, your usually wrong.
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So Brown can cut the red tape when he wants Nick.
As for cleaning up the city, all the bankers (the supposed to be) prudent people making sure our money was as safe as houses, oop's scrap that, steady as a rock? no, no forget it.
They had a job to do and failed, they played fast and loose with the money and had to be rescued.
Brown cleaning up the city, putting banker's right on how to manage money!
is there something wrong with that picture or is it just me?
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How about a posting looking at what Gordon has proposed by way of actual policy/action to clean up the banking sector?
How about a posting looking at why Gordon failed to see the problems in the banking sector that have clearly been there for a good number of years?
How about a posting looking at the failure of Gordon to create a workable regulation system for financial institutions?
How about anything that doesn't suggest again that Gordon is safe?
Bring us some detailed analysis as to what has lead us to this position. Go on - I dare you.
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This comment is awaiting moderation. Explain.
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Don't be silly the man is responsible for hiding away 110BN pounds of PFIspending as 'capital' which will, in fact, end up being paid for by our children.
He presided over the biggest ever expansion in government spending and persuaded all the banks to run with him.
He chose to overlook the biggest housing bubble in history and the biggest unsecured credit expansion in history.
Rescuing HBOS and Lloyds won;t alter the fact that many secured 130% mortgages against their proeprties now falling in value.
It doesn't alter the fact that bank balance sheets are shrinking and mortgage debt is simply not available anymore.
No more eating the house, no more soending money we haven't earned and no more voting newlabour. Goodbye Gordon Brown.
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Would this be the same party of the left who have done all in their power to stop the clear up of MPs expenses?When he can clear up his own ministers running rings around the expenses commitees I might have some faith in the hot air that he is spouting now.
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I've been taking a break as I don't agree with Nick's analysis or the mood of comments. It's complicated but I generally think Britain is a mess. From its economic fundamentals to the more everyday leadership and communication skills, I don't think Britain has what it takes. It's odd that a former merchant navy man and former alcoholic are setting the pace by creating an organisation that focuses on and promotes these very qualities in the interests of promoting a fourth and unprecedented Labour government at the next election.
I'm a bit puzzled at the collapse of HSBO and takeover by LLoyds TSB. It looks like more of the same irrationality and fear that both Dave Rogers and Timothy Garton Ash discuss. The banking system conspired against Northern Rock and the media helped kick them over the edge, and the unapologetic but shamed bankers got their pound of flesh. Better regulation and more settled markets can help but the fundamental issue is people. Unless people's monkey brain is directly challenged then abuse will continue.
I've been a prominent campaigner against Phorm's Webwise system, a technology that sits between the user and the internet, snoops their traffic, and sells their data to the highest bidder. The regulator has taken strong steps to get with reality but they still don't get that the law says that people must not be signed up to it by default, and that full and informed consent must be given before any customers data is snooped. And that's before we consider that website owners intellectual property is being stolen by Phorm. Again, the problem isn't law. The problem is people.
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Nick
BBC reported Wednesday morning
FSA stated that HBOS was:
"a well-capitalised bank that continues to fund its business in a satisfactory way"
BBC reported this morning
"Alistair Darling added that without the deal the outlook was "very bleak indeed...We were onto their (HBOS's) problem for several weeks. It didn't just suddenly happen,"
There seems to be a contradiction.
These are two parties to the tri-partite arrangement that Gordon Brown set up when he was Chancellor to oversee the financial systems in this country.
That same tri-partite group is the one that firstly allowed Northern Rock to follow a reckless business model and then could not reach agreement on what was best for Northern Rock.
Why is it suggested that Gordon Brown, who managed to come up with such a dysfunctional tri-partite group, is best placed to see us through this mess, or that he is the right man to bring in policies to "clean up the financial system"?
Moving forward, having waived through a merger to allow a single banking group to have market shares in current accounts, savings and mortgages of 30%, what happens in a year or two, when another group wishes to merge to compete with Lloyds, and that group will also have post merger market share of 30%+. Has the Government set out the stall for the country to have just 3 dominant players in mortgages, current accounts and savings in a few years, that between them will control 90%+ of the market?
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Brown is finished, the New Labour experiment is completely discredited and the next election will be a disastrous defeat for Labour.
No wonder nobody wants the top job at the moment.
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Like me, I suspect most people simply want Brown gone.
Like a football team that keeps losing. "We need to do something, I know, lets sack the manager!"
The government could offer me the Moon on a stick, but I'd simply respond "hasn't he gone yet?".
Gordon had his hands on the purse strings when things were going well, but didn't prepare for hard times (convinced as he was that he was an economic genius, instead of just being in the right place at the right time).
He was in charge when bad things started to happen.
"We need to do something... I know let's sack the manager!"
As an aside I also found out that the talk of 70 MPs needed to force a leadership contest is slightly misleading. It's 20% of MPs.
I think it's important, as I have some doubts that Labour will return 70 MPs next time unless there is a change at the top. I had visions of Brown being "President for Life".
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re: 19 GaryElsby
So you're saying that all this is the tories' fault then?
The fact that your glorious leader who's been in charge of the money for 11 years didn't understand the banking system isn't a problem, the only problem is that greedy people like money?
Your party is *so* extinct in 2010.
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Thousands of jobs could be lost in the wake of Lloyds TSB's £12.2bn takeover of Halifax Bank of Scotland (HBOS).
While Lloyds dismissed claims that up to 40,000 jobs faced the axe as "ridiculous", it refused to rule out compulsory redundancies.
But dont worry Tractor production is up (in Italy)
And to comment on Nicks peice.
Isnt it nice that Gordon has helped out his banking buddies by allowing a merger that they know would not ordinarily be allowed under competion rules because it creates unfair competion.
In the long run everyone who uses a bank will suffer because of this merger and it wouldnt surprise me to see legal challenges from some of the other big players in the banking market in the UK over this.
Not only that, as he has seen fit to flout the rules on this where else is he going to flout the rules, on calling an election perhaps, lets face it he has a by-election outstanding in Glenrothes, how long can he legally not call it?
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The spectacular and dismal failure of the government across a whole raft of policies has little to do with the global economic meltdown. While it would be quite wrong to place the blame at Gordon Brown's door, it would be a travesty if he were allowed to use it to deflect attention from his manifest failings as Prime Minister.
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Gordon Brown is the perfect person to clean up the city.
In 18 months he'll be unemployed and with his history of failure the only job he could get would be as a road-sweeper.
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Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling in response to Northern Rock crisis introduced, emergency covert legislation to prevent a failing bank from going bust. They said, it was necessary, as they didn?t have the legal powers and authority to stop the crisis. Well, they would have to say that, wouldn?t they? ? to avoid Brown having to face a charge of negligence, inter alia. BUT THERE ALWAYS HAS BEEN LEGISLATION TO PREVENT SUCH OCCURRENCE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Now Brown is telling us that he is going to clean up the city, at least he admits it was dirty most foul.
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...begs the question who made the mess that Brown is "clearing up". I'd suggest the previous chancellor could be culpable...
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Have all the BBC moderators been 'let go' due to the economic crises?
They can't all be at lunch.
Maybe they don't like the way the public treat Brown...
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O thank goodness for a knight in shining armour. Luckily Mr Brown came along with these financial measures to save us all. Now we should throw out the useless prat who was running the financial regulatory for the last 10 years!
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Who would think that a mere Prime Minister with AB-SO-LU-TE-LY no power at the moment and is on an all time low in the polls, could actually think of a clever little plan like this.
Sort out "the City", mr Brown, as you should have done AGES ago, when you were responsible for the countries finance...
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So, here is a man who was chancellor for 10 years and now he declares he will take action to clean up the city...too little too late mate !
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16. jimbrant
Of course Brown isnt responsible for the meltdown, just as he wasn?t responsible for the boom.
Trouble is when you claim responsibility for positive, the people just howl when you try to distance yourself from the negative. Tis the price you pay.
Brown has been a very mediocre PM, he was a dire chancellor and that is really why he deserves our scorn.
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Nick
When will you get it.
Brown is only safe because the rest of them aren't completely insane.
No one of any standing is going to want to be leader when they get anhilated at the next election.
No one of any standing is going to want to get off the Expenses gravy train early.
The vast majority of those that survive the next election will be in a better position with Gordon in the wilderness and not able to back stab as he did to Blair.
The option for the survivors will be to become the hero and revive the party or to jump ship to the next closest lifeboat to them, probably the LibDems.
I can see Blairites donning their lifejackets now and preparing to jump to the Orange right wing party. Clegg is pulling alongside as we speak.
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Yawn....
Come on Nick, if he lasts until Spring it won't be because of some incredible financial spring clean. It'll be because the Labour party hasn't got the 'cojones' to stick the knife in. He had 11 years as Chancellor to 'spring clean' the financial system, yet he did nothing except spend any surplus we might have had on ID cards, NHS computer networks and a whole host of needless schemes.
Now, behind in the polls, he will grind out a lonely path to 2010, where he will be defeated in the biggest landslide in British post war electoral history as rising unemployment, rising inflation and rising union power close the curtains on a Labour government, just as the last Labour government ended.
My god, the Labour party conference is going to be fun to watch. It would be comedy, if they weren't currently running the country.
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If Brown was a proper Labour politician he would NEVER have trusted the City (aka The real Tory Party) and would have done something about their outrageous bonuses and greedy braying as soon as he became Chancellor eleven years ago.
Instead, despite repeated warnings from his core supporters, he let them reign unchecked as they rode roughshod over most ordinary people's sensibilities.
Only now does he shut the stable door - long after the horse has bolted, taking most of the hay with it...
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Since whole tiers of the banking system will have disappeared and no-one will be too sure how what is left will work, I don't that cleaning-up the banking system will be that easy. I suspect that the focus will be on making sure that recent events won't happen again (unlikely in any case) rather than legislating for the next crisis.
Compare and contrast these events with the glacial progress of the Japanese banking bust that took 12 years to resolve. This time, events are unfolding with lightning speed and as such the bottom could well be reached very soon (however deep the bottom may be). Already the prices of oil and other commodities are falling much faster than they increased and this will work through into lower retail prices before too long, allowing interest rates to fall. If the Government can avoid the risk of deflation (which I think will become a serious risk). Things could look very different by the next election.
I think that GB in too deeply mired to win next time round, but it is entirely plausible that Labour will avoid the wipe-out that current polls would indicate.
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For Cleaning up the financial system
Read closing the door after the horse has bolted
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But surely it was Gordon who set up the current regulatory system. Having mucked it up once, why should anyone believe he'll do a better job this time. The man is incompetent and should resign immediately.
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Nick, stop repeating Govt spin:
So the prime minister is promising to clean up the financial system. He is calling for global action. He intervened directly, to facilitate the Lloyds takeover of HBOS.
We now know Lloyds were the proactive party with HBOS. The Govt merely reacted to events.
If he is promising to sort matters, why does he not act? All words no action. Or to be precise jumping on someone elses success.
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Yes Brown will carry the can,I don't think the toadying BBC will be able to save him
His hollow boasting about what he did for the country,abolishing boom and bust etc etc has proven to be just that.
I heard the other day on radio four a commentator bemoaning the fact that inflation was 5-6% whilst hepfully mentioning that in 1991 it was 14-17%without telling us what relationship that rate had with the rest of Europe at the time.Pathetic partisanship ,me thinks
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Re. the unpredictability of the future - the meltdown of the global banking system *has been predicted, and with a rather down-to-earth rational explanation of exactly *why - but was only ever highlighted in the more radical left-wing press - check your Socialist Workers of a decade or so ago if you don't believe it.
Any fule kno you're going to come a cropper if you sell folk a mortgage that is 10x their income, and it doesn't matter if you parcel that up and sell it on to someone else, hidden among other rubbish...some day the music will stop and you'll be holding the parcel.
But now the pundits and the players pretend it's like some natural disaster that fell from the sky, rather than the direct result of the all-devouring greed and dishonesty of the super-capitalists.
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The same asset stripping and emotionalism that's infected big business, media, and society gripped the British military. This resulted in the embarassing shambles of the Iranian border incident. The military took a step back to take a look at themselves, and after a damning internal report have got on with sharpening their act. I think, we'll all agree, this was both necessary and timely. The remaining question is what folks afflicted with similar mediocrity are going to do. Are they going to keep making excuses and blaming someone else, or are they going to get over themselves?
I've already commented that I don't buy into the general approach the dominant powers in business, the media, and society are taking. It just doesn't work and, I think, a lot of the noise is a combination of opportunism and greed. The world is changing and the folks who won under the old way don't want to let go. Well, they had their turn at the wheel and there's a chance another Labour government can finish what needs to be finished. Folks can roll with it or stick their heads in the sand and bottle out, but my mind is set. Gordon Brown isn't perfect but he's the only show in town as far as I'm concerned.
Behind the crud and sloganised emotionalism, there's two great stories promoting innovation and giving a shit and, I'm sure, most folks will agree this is a better path to follow than arguing and posturing. Forget law and gossip they're only a reality if you believe it. Perception is reality, so if you change your perception you change reality. The goals and sentiments you express, and the outcomes that leads to can be different but only if you think and feel different. Indeed, the great strategist Miyamoto Musashi comments on getting the boat to port versus patching the holes. Well, do you want the real deal, or a feelgood bandaid?
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Nick
You start your second paragraph:-
"Thus, his economic strategy and his political strategy have become aligned."
That sentence makes no sense. What economic strategy? what political strategy? and how does what you say in the first paragraph demonstrate that they are aligned?
This appears to be a phrase plucked out of the air and used at random... Completely disconnected from what preceeds it...
Can you expand, so I may better understand what you are trying to say? At the moment it reads as if written by a post John Prescot.
If I google the phrase will I find where it originally comes from?
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Well it's an interesting point of view, Wall Street saves Brown, Gordon certainly now has the chance to take back some control of the reigns of what seemed to be a runnaway horse. Unfortunately like his dithering this time last year about calling an election I think he'll be found wanting. There may be a brief respite as the Labour party hold back to see which way he goes, his undynamic nature probably means nowhere, ultimately his cautioun and indecision will be his undoing. In the short term then probably this crisis will help Brown through the conference season and probably into the spring. Brown will percieve he has regained some measure of control whether he actually has or not.
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A ringing endorsement for Gordon from John Prescott....
His position must now by unassailable.
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'unpredictability in the future?'
Are you blind? We are all doomed.
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Out of touch with the voters, as always.
So far as the average labour supporter is concerned (assuming that sub-species of homo ignorans hasn't finally gone extinct) "regulating the city" has nothing to do with the price of fish.
Or with the price of chips, booze, fags, petrol, houses, etc, etc...
Only "new" Labour could decide to demonstrate its progressive, forward looking image by dragging Prescott, Campbell, Mrs Kinnock, and some other has-been out of retirement.
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Dont panic Mr Brown, here come the cavalry
http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2008/09/labour-party-term-campaign
Now you really know its over.
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Nick
Any truth in the rumours that Gordo is very pally with the Chairman of Lloyds and indeed tried to pursuade them to rescue Northern Rock? It would be interesting to have a bit of investigative journalism as to how close that relationship is/and whether there is any truth in the rumours that there is a link to Labour fundraising? I am sure it wouldn't happen on Gordon-straight-kinda-guy-Brown's watch would it? I am sure not!!!
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If I promise to finally do that uni assignment that was due in 7 years ago, can I be Prime Minister?
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£185 Bn increase in net debt between Q2 1997 and Q4 2007. Probably add another £40bn to that for 2008
Yeah, Brown really is the man for the job.
Nick, why don't you and Paul Mason and Evan Davies ever challenge the Labour line that we are "uniquely well placed to weather the storm because of our stewardship of the economy over the last 11 years" by throwing these truly awful debt figures at them? They would be even worse without the 3G sale!
Germany spent the last 6 years eliminating debt, the US has a significanlty lower debt level so can act when there are problems, Brown has to tear up - his - rule book to get him out of a mess. Yet you never mention this - why not?
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So Gordon is going to clean up the City. Two questions
How long will that take?
How long has Brown got?
Today's poll shows Conservatives at 52%, Labour 24%, LibDemsl 12%.
Will Labour MPs put their jobs or the Country first? With most of them self-serving gutless specimens I suggest that they will put themselves first and the Country second.
That means that Brown will not be around to do anything. In the time he has he will be hard pressed to form a commission to make recommendations, then be gone.
A 28% lead in a General Election would be a total humiliation. And I haven't met anyone who says that Brown or a Labour government has a chance, nor will they vote for them.
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The major thing that needs to be done to prevent unstable markets is to curb short selling.
The response of our financial genius ex chancellor current PM Gordon Brown is:
"But there are no signs Mr Brown will follow the lead of the US financial regulators and curb "short-selling" - the practice which allows speculators to profit from falling share prices, which critics say fuels financial instability. "
Right man for the job, I dont think so!
As soon as the current crisis is over HBOS/LloydsTSB needs to be broken up again The only other alternative would be to allow the other backs to form 2 or three major institutions themselves and that is unthinkable!
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Nick:
I don't think you get it. This isn't a small economic problem that Gordon can fix, and neither is it a bolt from the blue that has hit an otherwise rosy economic outlook.
Let's be clear on what the problems are:
1. The UK has understated inflation (and consequently overstated GDP growth) for years, telling the public that we're getting richer when the public knows all to well that we aren't
2. We've allowed our trade balance to become dependent on the financial services sector which is now being battered, and will leave a huge hole in our trade and fiscal balances
3. Our utilities are foreign-owned
4. We do not export very much in terms of physical goods
5. We've depleted our oil and gas reserves, and are now importers of both
6. We've no idea how to replace our power stations before the lights go out
7. Our public sector finances are shot
8. We have a cripplingly expensive bureaucracy and public sector
9. Our economy depends on consumer debt hitherto 'secured' against artificially-inflated house prices which are now crashing back to earth
10. Our government has up to now been run by idiots
11. We've been rumbled by the forex markets (just take a look at the trade-weighted Sterling index over the last year)
How, exactly, is GB going to sort out that lot?
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An Australian hotel offering free drinks to women who took off their underwear is to be investigated by alcohol regulators, authorities say.
The Saint Hotel in Melbourne said women who hung their underwear above the bar on No Undie Sundie would receive A$50 ($39; £22) of drinks vouchers.
I'm off to Aus before they close this place down
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Robin Lustig's blog is reactively moderated and he does not seem to be overloaded with abusive posts. Given the evident crisis in the moderation arrangements, perhaps we should be given credit for being adults on other blogs as well?
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#32 getrid of gordon (duh!)
You ask me if this financial banking crisis is al the Tories fault?
Well it ain't exactly Karl Marx's fault is it?
Bankers are Tories, speculators are Tories and they all have fat salaries and pensions to swill in!
They have yachts in St. Tropez and holiday homes in the Med.
What makes them stand out from their customers is that their customers have none of the above and have to contend with their house and home being confiscated by (those in the med on yachts).
Comprende?
Cameron's system is the Capitalist system and this is the only TRUE policy that George Osborne will offer this Country in 2010.
Please Observe the Socialist movement coming to the rescue of the innocent poor, once again.
A policy that is guaranteed.
2010 is too dodgy to allow the carpet bagging Tories to dominate.
Gary
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What is particularly gratifying is that the newlabour apologists have turned to the oldest trick in the book and the last resort of failing governments - blame the media.
The fourth estate has its job to do and is justified in raising questions of performance, delivery and strategy with respect to all political parties.
In all three repects newlabour fail miserably.
To call Gordon Brown a man of international standing (that's you jimbrandt) is to invite the simplest of retorts:
He couldn't be bothered to turn up to sign the Lisbon treaty.
He immediately upset the Americans by distancing himself from them a year ago.
He has spent fifteen months blaming them for what is in fact a self inflicted wound - an unchecked credit expansion, public and private.
He aligned himself with Alan Greenspan - responsible for the credit expansion in the US.
He managed to back Barack Obama publicly before the US election had been held.
He failed to turn up to the opening ceremony of the Olympic games when every other leader was there.
Now he wants us to believe he's a man of international standing? Does he really believe he'd be welcome in the US after spending fifteen months blaming them for our own troubles?
He went to China and failed to secure a single order for British industry despite a plane full of representatives from British industry.
The man is a walking disaster zine and you should not be disappointed with his performance you should sack him.
As for #19 "socialism to the rescue as is the norm" has it occured to you what is happening all over the planet? Socialism is being kicked out all over Europe - Germany, France, Sweden, Italy, Denmark, Sweden ahve all booted out failed socialist regimes who spent too much during the good times and had no policies to extract them from the mess. In the US it has taken only the faintest glimmer of life in the Republican campaign for Obama to stumble and show there is no substance behind his one word policy of 'Change'.
The reality is for all newlabour posters that people vote in right wing governments during periods of economic instability so unless Gorodn Brown can pull several rabbits out of a dozen hats in eighteen months and take his hands out of the till, a tory adminsitration is an inevitability.
Blaming anyone but themselves for this mess is just adding to the weight of public opinion that Gordon Brown has been economical with the truth during his eleven years at the helm.
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John Prescott is so agressive - on Today this morning he reminded me why i wanted Blair to go and I had forgotton what a rude and ignorant man he is.
I am well and truely an ex labour voter
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#26 Robin - I see you are still peddling your lies about the level of debt.
As I've note in previous postings, the £110 billion value of PFI schemes are not all capital expenditure i.e. debt.
The independent IFS note in their 2008 Green Book that 30% of the value of schools PFIs and 50% of the value of hospitals PFIs are not debt, but payment for future current spend (i.e. caretakers, cleaning staff etc).
On a very conservative assumption (as schools and hospital PFIs make up the vast bulk of all PFIs), at least 20% of the value of PFIs is not debt. This gives an estimate that PFI debt is a maximum of 80%*£110 billion=£88 billion.
On your assumptions, the debt would be massive, as we should include the present value of all projected total government expenditure in future years as debt. I think most economists and accountants would find such an assumption as completely ridiculous.
I appreciate that this requires some basic mathmatical knowledge to work out, that it is apparent from previous postings that you do not have (were you schooled under this Government or something?).
Your (implied) points on the desirability of transparency are valid though - the Government does not meet its 40% net debt rule and this should be made a lot clearer to enable people to hold them account properly. PFI does (in theory) shift risk to the private sector, but it should be accounted for properly.
Your points on bubbles are valid, though I don't see any other politicians suggesting intervention here or the UK population demanding such a thing (e.g. the imposition of capital gains tax on housing may help avoid bubbles; can't see that as a political winner). Isn't the Conservative solution to offer greater tax breaks to housing which will further distort economic activity (e.g. abolish stamp duty).
RE 130% mortgages - the exception rather than the rule I'm sure. If you looked at the loan:value ratios on most of the mortgage books of banks then it would require quite a catastrophic combination of plummeting house values (down 30-40%), high interest rates (increasing mortgage repayments) and high unemployment (stopping income coming in) to cause a massive problem for the economy.
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ps how do you put hyperlinks in posts (those who have?)
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No 32
Don't think he was that categorical. However see mine of yesterday. This mess won't go away before the next election. Come 2010 and inflation, interest rates and unemployment will still be high. Public loathing of bankers, financiers, hedge funds and the rest of the demons will still be strong. Will the punters vote for a party which for over a century has championed the rights of landowners, industrial moguls and, more recently, big business and laissez-faire capitalism.
Possibly they will, but with less enthusiasm once Cameron has been examined. Those feeling the pinch will not readily identify with a man of privileged background and independent means who clearly will never have to share the punters' pain, however many hugs he gives and however many cups of tea he drinks. To they guys in the pub (of all political persuasions) Cameron is as remote as a martian. A battered and contrite Brown who has been seen to at least stay afloat through the storm may yet have his fans.
Or is Davis waiting in the undergrowth? His departure to fight the good fight of civil liberties always seemed to me a bit bogus.
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THis whole financial crisis has come about due to US banks making huge loans to people who couldn't pay it back.
No amount of unilateral banking reofrm on the part of teh UK would have prevented US banks failing and therefore UK banks who rely on the US giants for their credit.
There is an interantional banking board who deal with this, it should have been this board that did something about the financial markets.
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Aren't you forgetting that Gordon Brown was the man who:
i) decimated the best pension industry in the world by removing tax credits in 1997
ii) sold off the nations gold when it was at its lowest level.
iii) poured billions into the NHS and succeeded in making it worse
iv) poured billions into education and made it worse
v) introduce over 60 stealth taxes
vi) saw council tax increase way beyond the rate of inflation
vii) adjusted the way inflation is calculated to make it seem lower than it really is.
viii) can't ever answer a straight question
ix) has been noticable by his absence over the current crisis.
x) will (shortly) retire on a state funded, gold plated pension that he has contributed so little to.
xi) has been responsible for creating a bigger divide between England and Scotland. ( he is hated South of the border and even more so in the North who now want home rule)
xii) appointed a part time defence secretary
xii) has become the most unpopular PM ever.
xiii) has lost control of immigration
xiv) has demoralised the police force
xv) has lost the confidence of the armed services.
xvi) has lost the confidence of his own party
xvii) has done nothing to stop many major companies being taken over by foreigners
xviii) has ignored the power supply (electricity and gas) to the extent that there is now a very real possibility of major power cuts in a few years time.
and this list is just for starters. The man will go down in history as being the worst ever Chancellor/PM who managed to sell Britain on the cheap, drag it towards being a third world country and ensure that unless drastic measures are taken NOW the native British will be in a minority and the immigrants (both legal and illegal) will be the majority.
This is NOT the UK I want to live in.
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Gordon Brown is one the leading advocates of deregulation. He even set up commissions to report on deregulating the markets, and did indeed act on those reports.
Gordon Brown says he will now clean up the mess, a mess that he was primarily responsible for. Who believes him? After 11 years of inaction to curb the markets, nobody!
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It does not matter who is the PM, or whether it is the Labour or Conservatives who are in government, as should we have needed any further evidence, the country is not run by the politicians, but the relatively small band of powerful individuals who decide the fate of the person on the street by the size of the profits, which can be made.
It is incredible when millions of people will be made unemployed, lose their house etc, these so called `masters of the universe', and their Friedmanian like minded cohorts, appear on TV and tell us we should be thankful that a `healthy correction' of the values of companies and the housing market is taking place.
Before anyone states the obvious fact, I am not an economics expert, but neither am I stupid.
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#19
"Socialism to the rescue."
You have got to be kidding ! The Iron Law of British politics is:
"Labour governments always end in economic disaster."
Haven't you noticed ? The electorate certainly has !
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I can't believe Brown and Darling taking the credit for LLoyds saving (eating) HBOS. I suspect it was signed and sealed before they even knew about it. As for cleaning up the city and curbing speculators, the Labour party, which is on the verge of insolvency, will have to rely rather heavily on donations from these very people if they want to take part in the next general election; so no way will the grandees of the party (with the good of the country at heart) let the Downing street comedians do anything to upset the city. Now we have a rallying call from the gross John Prescott calling for unity in the Labour party whatever the cost to the country, probably he wants to wring every last penny out of Westminster before he is forced to retire.
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I can't speak for Nick, but having a similar personality type to the Prime Minister, I can give my interpretation: Gordon Brown thinks order and harmony is a big deal. I mean, a really, really big deal. But, he can throw the rulebook out of the window in pursuit of those aims. If you don't get that, it's the difference between a mere technician and a master, a scribbler and an artist, a blowhard and a general.
You can plot most folks on a matrix of rational versus relationship based, and forward thinking versus stick in the mud. Now, each have their strengths and weakness, depending on position and circumstance. You've also got folks who are the real deal and deliver, and those who talk things up and fake it. I'd make some snippy partisan comment, here, but it's really something I'd rather leave folks to reflect on in their own time.
My general view of Labour is they're tearing themselves apart over personal ambition and greed. Meanwhile, the CBI and their Tory pals are having an untested easy ride, but Labour is beginning to resolve its issues and the hard right putsch is beginning to lose steam. John Prescott's initiative is absolutely right because he's both doing something else and going somewhere else instead of fueling dumb. And if both Labour and Britain want to succeed that's exactly what needs to happen. As Tony Blair said and Robert X. Cringely argue, leadership is key.
Read it. It's important.
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Doesn't Gordy know his own policies? In June the FSA ruled that companies must disclose short positions in rights issues. This is yet another knee-jerk reaction which amounts to a tweak of the status quo rather than a policy initiative.
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A State Funeral for Baroness Thatcher was the subject of much recent discussion.
How about a state burial for Prudence Brown's reputation?
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#65 - Pot_Kettle
I didn't know they wore underwear.
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Back in the late seventies, the urgent need was to tackle and reform the trade unions. Labour couldn't do it because they were too close to the unions, too associated with them. They were part of the problem and so couldn't bring forth the solution.
So, we turned to Margaret Thatcher and the Conservatives, the party of free enterprise. And they did it. Yes, they sure did. Say what you like about Maggie but she sorted those unions out good and prosper and that, together with a healthy dose of deregulation, dynamised our economy.
Now here we are, 20 years later, and the situation is rather different. It's kind of the opposite in a sense. The need now is to tackle and reform "free enterprise" and in particular the ultra laissez faire capitalist financial services sector (that's almost a quarter of the UK economy we're talking, so it's not trivial). It's pretty much universally agreed that government regulation and intervention is now a GOOD THING.
So which party will be chosen to drive through this project? Applying the same logic which served us so well back in 1979, the answer seems clear. It has to be Labour.
But it can't be Gordon Brown, because his credibility is shot to pieces - "no more boom and bust" he said and we now have one of the biggest busts ever, following one of the biggest booms! - he can't escape from that, I'm afraid. He's politically DEAD.
What's going to happen, therefore, is that GB is going to (be told to) stand down fairly soon. Before the end of this year, for sure. He'll be replaced by the very underrated Harriet Harman and there won't be a GE because of the severity of the economic crisis. The party will rally round H and she will perform well as PM. Her qualities of calm intelligence and unflappability will win around a large section of the public (although by no means all, obviously, there'll still be plenty of "Harperson" jibes flying around in certain circles, you know the circles, I mean).
But she'll do well for the country, Hazza will, and a lot of people will see that. At the same time, the public's perception of David Cameron and George Osbourne will slowly but surely move closer to the reality. Yes, they will become viewed by many many people as being empty and opportunistic clowns.
The election will finally be called in the spring of 2010 and it will be close. The popular vote will split almost equally between Labour and Con, with the LibDems a distant and disappointing (for them) third. In terms of seats, Labour will hold just enough to form a government (H remaining as PM) with an overall majority of 15 seats.
Like all the best stories, this one has a happy ending. On the day after the election (the very morning after, in fact) Clegg, Miliband, Cameron and Osbourne are all sacked.
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The best thing Brown can do for the country is join Lord Lucan.
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Gordon Brown has announced a spring clean has he? What this merger shows is something totally different, morelike a total mess if we're honest.
Yes, HBOS had to be saved from collapse but what a chaotic way to do it. It is clear that Brown has decided to make economic policy up on the fly, pledge to re-write competition laws, grease the palms of corporate friends, possibly break EU Law, allow a major bank now to have a monopoly over the UK market and probably lead to several thousand being made redundant in the next few months.
Perhaps, Mr Brown, owing to the seriousness of the consequences of your actions, consulting Parliament (or the nation) about what you intended to do would have been welcomed. I take it this is supposed to be part of a Government that is listening and taking the concerns of the electorate seriously?
When the dust settles and the redundancies happen, Lloyds-Halifax becomes dominant in the UK and the whole move is either challenged in court (by way of judicial review) or in the European Court of Justice (you can't re-write EC Competition Law so easily) then the real consequences will be seen.
Unfortuantely, the way this whole merger was carried out made it look more like the PM was some third-world despot who offered to make one of his friends a generous offer at the expense of the state.
At the moment only the bosses of Lloyds TSB seem to be estatic - well why wouldn't they? The PM has given them HBOS on the cheap - what a wonderful way for a LABOUR Government to show it cares about the many rather than the few.
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GaryElsby @67 wrote:
"Please Observe the Socialist movement coming to the rescue of the innocent poor, once again."
Is that the socialists of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics?
or
The National Socialist Workers Party of Germany?
or perhaps the Socialism practiced in Pol Pot's Democratic Kampuchea?
Maybe it is the 'soft', fluffy type of Socialism we had in the Britain of Wilson and Callaghan Governments, 1974-1979. Power cuts and three day weeks anyone?
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Many posters seem to think that when Cameron et al rides to the country's rescue in 2010 he will put in place regulation that will be able to prevent such a financial crisis emerging again and restrict the excesses of the banking system.
I will leave aside whether any realistic system (one that maintains our openness to capital flows in and out of the country) would have been able to prevent contagion from the credit crunch that originated in the USA.
The Conservatives pronouncements on regulation continually urge the 'cutting of red tape'. The private sector still knows best in their view and the state should keep its nose out or risk stifling creativity and innovation.
Cameron himself has said he sees the best approach as asking business to be socially responsible rather than regulating (e.g. to prevent junk food adverts, to get business to be more environmentally friendly etc).
I do not say that they would urge the state to become more involved in preventing the (efficient) private sector from lending money to who it wants to or in restricting renumeration policies that they choose to implement for their staff. It goes completely against their core principles that the market operates best without the dead hand of the state.
More regulation of this type, if Labour had brought it in, would have been very unpopular (or at least that was the perception that Labour had), and would definitely have been resisted by those on the opposition benches.
To say otherwise is just wishful thinking.
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65 pot kettle
Have you seen Australian women? Don't bother!!!
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TwoS**gs says "Brown was the man with the economic experience and the international status to see us through".
That is a joke right - i mean he was rolling (pun intended) around the floor laughing when he said that?
Economic experience - ie riding the good times, putting nothing away, borrow spend, borrow and spend more and more heading towards a new record deficit, tripping up at every opportunity that required some economic savvy.
International status - ie - embarrassingly turning up late at the Lisbon treaty, going awol during the georgia / Russia campaign, and soon to be issued proceedings against by the EC for the aforementioned borrowing.
No, sorry, the joke is he's PM. And an ex-chancellor! I'd laugh as well, but these idiots are destroying our country. Get rid NOW
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The moderators are on strike!
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re: 67 GaryElsby
yep, that's right; the financial collapse which happened on Brown's watch following his 11 year stint as chancellor/PM is all the tories' fault, and has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Brown wasn't monitoring/regulating the system properly.
(fellow bloggers, just humour poor old gary while they send for the men in white coats)
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It seems to me that most of the BBC's political and financial editors and correspondants fall into the "Brown knows best" faction .
Or perhaps that should be "brown nose best"
surely after one disaster after another Brown deserves to be given a hard time,made to face the facts of his recent and not so recent mismanagement of first the economy then the country.
I expect to see most of the BBC's staffers awarded the OBN on Browns resignation honours list,which for me,can't come soon enough
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#71 - balhamu
Visit HERE where our fiend Ed Inglehart has explained it all for you.
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Bolt - Horse - Door?
or should the government just move to protect all depositors and then just let Moral Hazard operate - lets the weak and foolish fail.
I think Labour MPs are now reaping the reward of the Moral Hazard of not having a proper competition for the leadership - more fool them.
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Nick some things are completely certain.For example the fact that labour were 20 points behind the tories in most of the polls before this economic crisis,they are 20points behind the tories now,and will continuie to be 20points behind the tories when the economic crisis is over,if it ever does.
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Why are the moderator soooooo slow?
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74 fensorient:
Brilliant post.
The only bit of the track record that I would add to your list is the cheap sell-off of the nuclear technology company Westinghouse Electric (well, we were never going to need to build new nukes, were we?)
Adding your post to my list of the current economic problems (64) puts Gordon Clown's track record and prospects into context.
The sooner this idiot PM and his bunch of PC buffoons goes, the better. Though I do hope he remains leader until the election, to ensure the maximum destruction of the Labour Party!
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74. fensorient
The really sad thing is that Blair is just as culpable and his involvement has been completely forgotten.
Theres no justice
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I read that as saying that big business stupidity and Tory greed haven't been stamped on hard enough, which is why another Labour government is necessary to stop the swinging pendulum stone dead. Folks moan about the boom and bust economy but who's making the choices? You say you want better but when the moment comes you all chicken out and run to the hills.
There's been a lot of really good initiatives from the government on things like The New Deal, fair wages, and knocking low into shape. Most or all of this has been opposed or actively undermined by big business and their Tory pals every inch of the way. The government can try and set a lead and create a wealth generating environment but if the retreads and wannabes keep getting in the way Britain will never get over its deepseated problems.
Looking at the raw social and economic strategies, it's very, very clear how Britain has its wires crossed. By not developing sound products and laying staff off at a mere sneeze, both big business and their Tory pals are running an advert for the hardline Thatcherism they want to bring back, and look what happened last time. It ain't gonna have a different ending this time, so why drink the Kool-Aid? If you wanna stop being losers just, er, stop being losers. Easy, innit?
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HAVE YOUR MORTGAGE WRITTEN OFF, AND INSIST THAT YOUR BANK OR BUILDING SOCIETY, PASS ON TO YOU, THE CUT IN INTEREST RATE BENEFIT RELIEF, INCLUDING BACK DATED BENEFIT, FROM THE BANK OF ENGLAND, TO YOU, AND IF YOU LIVE IN THE USA FROM THE FED TO YOU.
AND WHY NOT?
After all, Bankers were gambling with mortgage-backed-securities using them as collateral in unregulated volatile markets and they lost them causing a crisis ? the effects for you as a homeowner and taxpayer are devastating.
At no time did homeowners and taxpayers give authority to any bank, building society, institution or any government to create, or gamble with instruments used as collateral putting their homes at risk. At no time did your lender in principle and in law have the authority of the regulators, or authority of law.
Why should you pay for the greed and ruthless behaviour, most foul, of the super-rich bankers, who caused the credit crunch and contributed to it? ? Not only is it the biggest modern-day bank robbery but the biggest robbery of the economy leaving it vandalised. It was all avoidable. It didn?t have to happen.
At no time has the taxpayer been responsible for the conduct and dealings of private investors or for loses incurred by private transactions of banks, mortgage lenders or any financial institution.
Many homeowners struggle for years to get on ? and stay on ? the property ladder. Why should they pay for bank loses by way of: Increased interest rates; negative equity; repossessions - made homeless with predatory bailiffs plundering their property?
Why should they pay with: financial hardship; not able to put food on the table; mental stress; and devastating effects of it all for the rest of their lives and their children s lives - whilst the bankers are having a party?
The unscrupulous bankers who caused the credit crunch left the banks which employed them with debts to the tune of nine hundred billion pounds, the effects of which banks have stopped lending to customers and to each other. This has caused a liquidity problem resulting in the drop in house prices and increased interest rates, the effect of which is a dramatic increase in negative equity and repossessions. The effects upon the economy are so enormous - many companies are cutting back production. It is affecting all kind of industries. Many people are losing their jobs. Everyone in some way or another is affected. Why! All because of bankers greed and gambling.
Why should the super-rich bankers get away with their staggering profits, big bonuses, and asset stripping, scot-free, at the expense of homeowners losing their home, the enormous costs to the taxpayer, and the damage they have caused to our economy leaving it vandalized?
When Northern Rock failed, the Bank of England, the Financial Services Authority, and the Treasury, started to pass the liability parcel, which ended up on the lap, of Homeowners and the Taxpayer. The media, to some extent, exposed, in simple terms, how and why the bank had failed and what had been going on. It soon became apparent that other banks had similar problems that were ubiquitous through out the whole banking system. However, the cause to justify their conduct, in principle and of law is ?Unintelligible?.
The Bank of England, (BOE) used Taxpayers money, loaned at a penalty interest rate, to replenish the losses of the banks and mortgage lenders. The (BOE) also cut interest rates to stimulate the economy ? but the Banks refuse to pass on this benefit relief to their mortgagor-customers. Instead, they use the benefit to offset and reduce the penalty interest rate ? all at the expense of the taxpayer and benefit relief meant for homeowners.
BASIS OF ECONOMY
Britain has always been a homeowner-based economy - not like the economies of France and Germany, where the majority of people live in rented accommodation. Homeownership made Britain one of the wealthiest and stable economies in the world.
Scarcity of building land, difficulty in getting planning permission and the time it takes to build substantial property using bricks and mortar and with every increasing costs, it all adds up to a very valuable asset that increases in value. Because of this, the majority of people want to get on the property ladder. These assets are the foundation of the British economy and credit ratings upon which stability depends. These assets were so valuable, that other loan sharks wanted to get in on the act - adverts started to appeared on national television encouraging homeowners? to free up equity from their home and to - Spend! Spend! Spend! The banks? were promoting credit cards ? shopping on the high street was a wash with cash.
But the bankers were gambling with mortgage-backed securities (MBSs), many in the form of CLOs and other similar products. The number of these products being sold on, increased dramatically generating hundreds of billions of pounds - But at whose risk and expense?
Financial markets are driven by fear - But the bankers were not in fear, it was not their property that would be repossessed, they were using their homeowner-mortgagor-customer s assets to raise collateral which they squandered on subprime wooden houses in America that, if not properly maintained depreciate rapidly. They were even handing out mortgages on mobile homes which dropped in value the moment they were driven out of the car showroom. But the bankers didn t care, the more of this stuff they sold on, the bigger their profits and bonuses, so who wanted to stop the party?
Exposure to subprime property was enormous - in hundreds of billions of pounds. But when banks started to fail the effect upon the economy was so devastating ? it exposed the driving force behind Brown s booming economy.
To feed the greed and gambling of the bankers the economy was heavily reliant on the momentum of ever-increasing property prices.
Northern Rock had been such an embarrassment for the Government, that it couldn?t afford any further revelations of failing banks and the full extent of their liability be known.
Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling in their panic responded to the crisis by introducing, what they called ? emergency covert legislation to prevent a failing bank from going bust. BUT THERE ALWAYS HAS BEEN LEGISLATION TO PREVENT SUCH OCCURRENCE IN THE FIRST PLACE. So what was the real purpose behind Brown and Darling s covert legislation?
Brown and Darling, in their panic declared, that protective legislation was needed, because they didn?t have the legal powers and authority to stop the crisis from happening. Well, they would have to say that, wouldn?t they? ? to avoid Brown having to face a charge of negligence, inter alia. By their own admission, their statement infers negligence ? in that the vault door had been left wide open, and of course, guess what! - the unscrupulous bankers had bolted with hundreds of billions of pounds, leaving behind a staggering financial mess the effects of which upon the stability of our economy are cataclysmic. Well, plausible as it may seem, Brown?s excuse, that there was no legal authority - is utter nonsense.
The fact that Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling, by their own admission, that their emergency legislation is covert, shows the purpose of their intent, to keep secret the truth, of the extent and severity of liability to be placed upon homeowners and the taxpayer.
Homeowners and the taxpayer, through no fault of their own, are now liable for hundreds of billions of pounds.
Why involve the taxpayer? No matter how desirable Brown and Darling s legislation to nationalize Northern Rock may be, they have set a dangerous precedent, which is in fact, unlawful, and whilst this unlawful situation continues, it is another form of stealth tax, wilfully calculated ? most foul. If they think by making it a temporary measure will somehow give validity to it, they are wrong.
There is no authority by which Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling or any Government, can initiate such legislation - the effect of which, transfers the risk-liability from the private investor unto the taxpayer and homeowner-mortgagor that ultimately ousts the authority of the Court in the UK, and the same checks and balances apply in the USA. Any attempt to oust the authority of the Court, and in such a manner, is contempt and a criminal offence. One would think that Darling being a lawyer would know that to initiate such legislation is not only unlawful, but is an abuse of the law and process, inter alia. But regardless of long established fundamental principles of Law, they pushed their legislation through parliament. As for the rest of our politicians when it comes to matters of law, they are just lead like sheep. For instance have you noticed, In principle and in law all legislation must make proper provision otherwise it is not worth the paper it is written on. But this Government has been eroding provision clauses to avoid having to pay out compensation.
When Mr Brown and Mr Darling Nationalised Northern Rock the ultimate provision in their covert legislation is that Homeowner s and the Taxpayer pick up the tab.
LEGAL AUTHORITY TO HAVE THE PERPETRATORS OF THE CREDIT CRUNCH BROUGHT TO JUSTICE AND TO CLAW BACK THEIR ILL-GOTTEN GAINS.
In relation to the credit crunch - all the rhetoric we have heard from the Chief Executives of: the Financial Services Authority (FSA), the Treasury (HMT), the Chief Executive of the British Bankers Association before the House of Commons and from the speeches? of Alistair Darling and Mervyn King, the Governor of the Bank of England (BOE) at the Manson House, is all geared to: Who is to pay for this mess after the event, how to prevent a reoccurrence of the behaviour that caused the credit crunch.
But this crisis was foreseen, the FSA, HMT and BOE (the Tripartite Authorities) did have ?Notice.? Had the Tripartite Authorities exercised the existing safeguards or all the measures they are now proposing before the event, the banks wouldn?t now be calculating their lose exposure to the markets in the USA.
CHANGE OF THE SYSTEM
Up until 1997, the Bank of England controlled the Banking system. It was common knowledge that prior to 1997, mortgages were protected from such abuse, under existing safeguards of regulations and the law, and that mortgages, in particular, were sacrosanct.
Mortgages were only to be used for the purchase of property; loans for all other purchases had to be through a bank loan or hire purchase, which were short term and had a higher rate of interest, there was a separation of deposit banking and mortgage lending. The lending banks and building societies were strictly regulated.
However, Mr Brown decided that he didn?t like that anymore. So he introduced a system were we had, the Financial Services Authority, the Treasury, and the Bank of England, (the Tripartite Authorities) carving up the job amongst them. Just one big problem ? when there was a crisis, apparently nobody knew who was in charge. The effect of all this ? the system unregulated.
EXISTING LEGISLATION SAFEGUARDS
Before the Memorandum of Understanding in 1997, it was common knowledge, that there always has been legal authority and inherent safeguard powers available to prevent such unfettered conduct, most foul. But what did they not understand? In principle and in law, such conduct is contrary to: The competition rules; the fundamental rules of law and maxims; the law of equity; natural justice; the sprit of the law; and the Articles of EU Law; inter alia. There most certainly was, and there still is, proven and long established legal authority.
Indeed, in principle and in law, and on equitable grounds, it always has been, and still is, impossible to initiate such legislation or to over-turn the existing safeguards. But regardless of the law the PM pushed his legislation through parliament.
NEGLIGENCE, FAILED IN DUTY OF CARE
But was Brown negligent when he was Chancellor of Exchequer? - was he negligent on the grounds, that he failed in his duty of care, to put in place proper legislation and regulation safeguards, and failed to use existing long established inherent legal power and authority, that he failed to detect the discrepancies at a time when this could have been done? - or did he know what he was doing?
Did he know that re-packaged mortgages in the form of Collateral Loan Obligation (CLO's) and other similar products were being traded outside regulation authority and the effects that this could have on the stability of the economy? Surely, he ought to have known when Chancellor at the helm?
The bankers knew the enormous value of these secure assets, and that they would be the driving force behind a powerful booming economy. They knew they would make a fortune if they could trade them on the US financial markets in the same way as US government-sponsored-enterprises, or GSEs. However, the bankers knew they couldn?t be traded unless they were taken out of their protective regulation. So how did they get their hands on them?
Well, first, you must know what you are doing, and know how to have them deregulated. By changing the banking system in 1997, banks were able to trade CLOs and other stealth products through institutions, but an institution is not called a bank, and therefore operated outside strict bank regulations. This was the key to the unscrupulous bankers making a fortune. The question one should keep in mind is, was it Mr Brown's idea, or the Bankers' idea, or both? Who persuaded who?
The government now faces an £8bn tax revenue shortfall. The government is considering relaxing its own fiscal rules on how much it can borrow in order to counter the effects of the economic slowdown. So who has the money to go guarantor for them? And who are they making liable to pay it back?
Is it amazing, that the biggest modern-day bank robbery to the tune of nine hundred billion pounds and its effects on the stability of the economy has taken place on Gordon Brown s watch? But why have Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and the so-called (the Tripartite Authorities) taken no action against the perpetrators of this enormous crime?
What is needed is a public inquiry to look into the way the perpetrators of this enormous crime have breached the law. How they plotted a course to by-pass the protective security alarm system of the law. How, they spun a complex web to protect themselves from prosecution and the processes that assisted them in the execution of this crime. But in the corridors of power and corruption - public inquiries can also turn out to be a white wash. The FBI in the USA is in the process of bringing criminal proceedings against bankers in the USA but nothing has been done to prosecute the bankers in Britain who knew what was going on.
The one fundamental ingredient that is missing to prevent such unscrupulous and unfettered behaviour most foul is a DETERRENT. When banks are entrusted with other peoples money and assets. Surely, transparency, accountability, preventative legislation properly regulated and a forensic authority with power to prosecute, to claw back ill-gotten gains, seize personal assets, jail sentences and enforcement of heavy finds big enough to be a Deterrent, is the operational recipe needed to be proper and acceptable?
Brown after ten years as Chancellor and head of the treasury has the cheek to say that he will clean up the city. It would be laughable if it weren t so serious.
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So Gordon Brown plans to clean up the city!
Shame he didn't do this before the speculators brought down a perfectly sound institution like HBoS.
Shame he didn't act to protect saver's money further after the Northern Rock to prevent the losses HBoS will have seen over the last few days.
Shame that he, like many of HBoS' staff will be out of a job soon.... not.
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Charles_E_Hogwash @79 wrote:
"I can't speak for Nick, but having a similar personality type to the Prime Minister, I can give my interpretation".
You mean the you, also, are psychologically flawed, Chuck?
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Nick,
I know that sometimes you are accused of not really knowing what you, or some of your contributors are taliking about. Well may I put them categorically in the wrong and this is the evidence.
The following was posted on your wonderful site, under the heading Lots of Work for the Kremlinologists. Now, to save people going to look it up it is #222 posted 7:56 am on the 16/9 :-)
'listened to Alistair Darling this morning telling us about the credit crunch and the financial crisis and he was asked about Hedge Funds.
Just a quickie for your readers . In order to be able to sell short a hedge fund still has to make delivery of stock to the market in settlement, so they borrow the stock.
Now who do they borrow the stock from, why the Investment Banks who manage the assets of Pension Funds. So, when you are a Trustee of a Pension Fund and you are asked will you permit any of the assets of the pension fund to be 'lent' then just say no.
The Investment Banks cannot do anything without the approval of the Trustees, so just say no. So, Alistair pass legislation immediately to prevent any stock lending.
There are implications because the Investment Banks pay interest on the value of the borrowed stock but that is far outweighed by seeing the value of the pension fund assets fall in value.
So, to assist the Chancellor, stop stock lending and disallow the activity which is known as Contracts for Difference, which avoids the need to settle with physical stock within the Settlement period.
I do not expect any financial aid from the Chancellor for my contribution but if he does this right away he will have the gratitude of all of us. By the way please note that Pension Funds cannot 'trade' their assets, that is they cannot just buy and sell because they are meant to invest for the long term, not just short term speculative gains'.
so, dear readers if they had acted when they should have done, before this fiasco, then companies, and more importantly jobs might just have been saved. Why has it taken all this tiime for this practice to be temporarily stopped. It should be permanent.
So, thank you Nick and the moderators, can we expect the government to admit that they read your blog and react to the comments. Bet you they don't. You and your commentators are more influential then they dare admit to. Well done for printing this in the first place. You would think that some of us poor non experts actually do know what we are talking about.
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FORENSIC-DEBATE @100,
Crikey! Nice of you to give us the abridged version.
(Next time, why not just post a hyperlink to your website).
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#83 sagamix - "no more boom and bust" he said and we now have one of the biggest busts ever, following one of the biggest booms! "
This keeps on coming up, but seems to me to ignore the difference between home-grown boom/bust and the imported variety. Brown was very successful in moderating the UK economy so that we haven't yet suffered the sort of cyclical "boom and bust" that all his predecessors failed to prevent. Pre-1997 when the economy was doing well it always overheated (price inflation/wage inflation/ growth outstripping the ability of the real economy to deliver), and that led to the inevitable bust - no matter what was happening in the big wide world. Brown is perfectly entitled to say that he has abolished that sort of cycle, at least for now. The present 'bust' has nothing much to do with 'boom and bust', and is very largely down to factors external to the UK (credit crunch in US, oil prices, food prices, all commodity prices because of increased demand from 'developing' nations.) The evidence for this is the fact that we got through two earlier recessions or near-recessions in Europe and the USA without them having any dramatic effect on the UK; for most of my life, those circumstances would have hit us hard. I recall that the received wisdom always used to be that the UK was first into recession, and the last out of it. That is no longer the case, I think.
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Clean up the "city"?
What about getting the lazy bin men to empty my bin?
The (new) nextdoor neighbour has felt the need to use my bin, since his is already overflowing, hes decided to use mine. So this morning Ive got up for work to see that the bin men have decided to leave both our bins. The thing is that they only get emptied every fortnight. Thanks Labour for that, and thanks to my new next door neighbour!, half the streets bins remain un-emptied and over flowing. But this fool wants to sort out the Banks... this is what you get from Labour!
Sorry Brown you and New Labour YOU have spent and spent and sqeezed to the tune that the councils are fining or refusing their obligations for any excuse because the New Labour party SPENT TOO MUCH MONEY!
Why dont they organise their own partys finaces first, before clearing up the citys!
Its too late Labour, your history!
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Yip.. thats clean it up...lets tell those high flying executives..."ENOUGH IS ENOUGH"
This is a major indictment on capitalism
where the greed of a few can do so much harm to so many.
Why dont we have; not for profit assets in this country anymore?
Why do so many always try and live beyond their means?
why should share-holders stand to gain the most from this new merger?
Why do people think that plastic is fantastic?
If we tolerate this greed anymore, what do we leave our children and their future?
End private education...end private health care.....end the fat cat attitude....Get social people.....it can work
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Nothing has changed re Brown has it, how does he look more attractive in the short term. By admitting the obvious that a clean up is needed he just admits things have been sloppy on his watch. Its a Lose-Lose situation.
Labour flounders around try looking for a more attractive offering but as usual under overbearing leadership(s) new talent has not exactly been developed. Part of the Blair-Brown teamwork.
Brown's problem is that the aftermath of this is going to be around longer than him. House prices will not recover other than by inflation and a modest rebound, equity, whether is should have existed or not will have flown, negative equity will be here for many. LloydsHBOS will still be cutting jobs, (death by a thousand cuts), UK wide jobs will fall - unemployment lags a down turn and will be maxing by 2010 2011. When the public recover from the shock they will find they have wounds to lick.
Only an upturn or a war will save Brown and maybe not then.
Alan Milburn wants Labour to change, well how does oppostion sound.
At the end Thatcher thought she was God and described herself as 'we'. Blair thought he could talk to God towards the end. What next.
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# 105 Jimbrant
You know that, and I know that, but "ordinary people" (witness most of the bloggers on here) are not going to see it that way.
It will get tagged as the "Brown Boom" and the "Brown Bust" and there's nothing he can do about it.
Sad. True.
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What a difference a couple of days make in Politics !
I'll admit to my views on Gordon softening - theres a lot of work going on behind the scenes that we dont know about.
And where are the 'government in waiting' (the Tories) ? Nowhere to be seen as they would not have a clue of what to do at the moment. I think ive seen George Osbourne once this week and even then it was to agree with what Labour are doing.
After watching the interview with Alistair Campbell (im not a fan by the way) on C4 news tonight he had one very good point. A lot of Gordon Browns problems at the moment are down to a weak Cabinet - They should be taking the fight to the Tories. Everyone needs to remember what the Tories are about and be reminded of their lack of experience and polices; we know more about Lib dem policy than Tory policy at the moment......
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Is not the problem that the crash must happen before any charges can be brought for say driving without due care and attention.
You can see the cars on a collision course but at the very last second they swerve and miss each other. Nobody is guilty, because there is no proof and there is no evidence. There was no crash.
However, the two cars which swerved drive off and two family cars behind the are distracted by the events unfolding that they crash and two families are wiped out.
The people who really caused the crash walk away and leave the carnage behind them.
Is this not what has happened to the financial markets, the guilty must not be allowed to get with this, they have ruined so many lives. There must be a thorough investigation, who are the guilty ones. Could it even be the pension fund trustees who let their stock be lent without realising what it meant.
Oh, by the way I think that you have more clout than that Robert Peston chap, with his appalling pronounciation, so that's why I comment on your blog rather than his. Can somebody not send Peston to elocution essons.
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105 Jimbrant
We currently have the perfect storm of:
1. Global economic bust
and
2. Home grown economic bust
It gets worse because:
A. Not only does Brown not have a few quid in the bank to pay to mitigate the effects of this (he has to resort to dodgy lagging gimmicks to pretend he is doing something - and the utilities will charge us for this any way)
..... but also Brown sold off our gold 'reserves'. Reserves being something you keep in your back pocket for a rainy day - like a war or recession - and which the government uses to secure favourable loans, financial deals, whatever might be necessary. Oh dear - we sold the gold and 'invested it' in 302 'Outreach Officers'.
The reason Brown is so scared and can't lead from the front foot is that he is guilty, he knows he is part of the problem. I agree he isn't ALL of the problem. But he's done enough damage to this country (not just finances) and must go.
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109. At 7:50pm on 18 Sep 2008, sagamix wrote:
See 42
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nande2000uk @110 damns Brown with faint praise:
"A lot of Gordon Browns problems at the moment are down to a weak Cabinet".
Doh! Who appointed Brown's cabinet? Who could have reshuffled it at any time in the past year if any of his muppet ministers were not up to par?
Why, who else but the charismatic, non-dithering, non-clunking fist, resolute, truthful and magnificent Mr. Brown...
Brown's 'problems' are far deeper than the shallow pool from which he draws his batch of sub-par minnow ministers.
As for Alistair Campbell: I have trod in 'processed' dogfood that leaves a less unpleasant smell.
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The US Treasury and the Fed agreed that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were too big that they caused ?moral hazard? and that their policy now is to reduce the size of financial banks and institutions and to promote competition. But yet Gordon Brown tore up the competition rulebook and allowed the two biggest mortgage banks in the UK to merge. His statement that he told the City to clean up their act implies that he admits that the city is dirty most foul. He had ten years to clean it up - so what makes him think the city will take heed of his comment when they know he is a lame duck PM.
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The sad truth is that Britain is and has been for along time, reliant on the wealth of America.
This nation should be fully functional in its energy needs...The sad truth is, its not
This nation should have a home grown manufactoring and exporting wealth....the sad truth is, it donesn't
This nation should stop looking outwardly as a strong nation and start looking inwardly to become that strong nation.
This nation needs to build a nation for the 21st century....we dont need a Marshall plan, we need a British plan...Now!
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67. GaryElsby
Dear Gary,
Thank you ever so much for youre kind letter, it was very thoughtful of you to write to us here. All the gown ups thought you made some very good points.
You are quite right when you say it ain't exactly Karl Marx's fault is it?
Night night, sleep tight.
XXX
ps dont forget to brush your teethy pegs.
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Oh no not Derek as well, Im off for a pint
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**** More than half of those surveyed (56%) believe Mr Brown has what it takes to be a good prime minister, compared with 32% for Mr Cameron. ( Summer 2007 )
*** While the prime minister continues to enjoy a Brown bounce with voters and the media, David Cameron has been warned he is facing a "summer of discontent". (July-August 2007)
Only a year ago.........!
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'Don't Trust the 'Tories' you can't name 3 things they would have done in the current situation that the government haven't. Alos Nick Robinson is a Tory so no point trusting him either!
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#79 Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
I can't speak for Nick, but having a similar personality type to the Prime Minister.......
Really Charles,
I never believed that you of all people suffered from an inferiority complex!
Various rude bloggers have thrown insults at you in the past, but never one so horrific as you give yourself.
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#106 - Who's your council?
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So Gordon Brown has pledged to "clean up".
A bit late.
I thought he was chancellor for 10 years.
Didn?t it occur to him even when BoS was railroaded to a shotgun marriage with Halifax 7 years ago that things needed to change?
Apparently not.
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"It will get tagged as the "Brown Boom" and the "Brown Bust" and there's nothing he can do about it.
Sad. True."
Well oddly enough people will blame Brown as he has been in charge of the countries finances for the last 11 years.
Prudent people save money for a rainy day, Labour had 10 years of sunny days but rather then saving money borrowed more.
Anyone with any understanding of financial markets would know that eventually there would be a down turn - there always is.
If Brown is to claim credit for the growth of the economy under Labour he must always hold his hands up when things go wrong.
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Apparently this merger started 6 weeks ago,
where have the BBC been during that time.
So much for journalism.
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Gordon Brown has basked in the glory of the regulatory framework he set up when he allowed the Bank of England to set interest rates linked to inflation targets.
Now the whole policy has come unstuck and he attempts to pin the blame on the global monetary system and speculators.
Any bank borrowing on the money markets and lending into mortgages is taking a risk and requires a greater degree of both solvency and capital - or so I would have thought!
Compounding the whole area lies the FSA and its gross incompetence - staffed as it is by banking has-beens.
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I said in post 10 that "The only issue at the next election will be the scale of Labour's huge election defeat".
I see tonight that the latest MORI poll gives the Conservatives 52%, Labour 24% and the Lib Dems 12%. It is the Labour Party's lowest ever MORI rating, and the Lib Dems are down 4%.
Goodbye Labour.
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Re Post 109 - sort of Gordon Brown is a good guy really (without putting words in your mouth).
Depends on your point of view. I consider the fabric of the UK has been damaged in many ways and we now move steadily toward a Brave New World, we appear to lead the world in this direction, much of this has been implemented by brave new labour.
There is no such thing as a totally free market, and when a market (housing) is left in free flow it is questionable. Particularly when the resulting befuddled electorate, high on the illusion of a personal wealth, which is not real, not sustainable long term, are more mutable to the residing governments wishes.
Debt simply is money dragged from the future to be spent now. By definition that makes you poorer in the future. This device was first used by Thatcher. Debt and the illusion of wealth keeps the public under control. It has been taken to it's logical conclusion by Brown.
I believe the next generation face more not less problems. Not least financial - it is a long term debt crunch not a short term credit crunch. Nobody is arguing, that I have seen, that the US has impacted on the UK, it is whether or not we are well prepared or not.
(NB Warren Buffett says the best thing you can do financially as an individual is get rid of your mortgage. Seems at odds with Browns cultural mission)
Other than all of this Brown may have done a briliant job. If you don't think these are valid points then fine. History will judge, ten years time.
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What I'm having trouble with is: How come Brown is only now claiming he'll "clean up the City"?
This has been going on before and during his term as Chancellor and now PM.
Was it that he really didn't know what was going on? Or that he did, but turned a blind eye because the unbridled mischief in the markets was great in times of credit expansion and boom?
I mean, how many times has the warning about £1 trillion debt been screamed at him?
Come on...! I think he knew what was going on; it was convenient until the proverbial stuff hit the fan in the past few days. Furthermore I think his only intervention in the Lloyds/HBOS thing was blocking the Competition Commission yet now he's taking credit for brokering the deal!
How on earth can he go on thinking we believe this stuff?
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120 Neil1011
Three things the Conservatives would recommend.....
Clearly at number 1 there is this:
1. Get rid of Labour and especially Gordon Brown and replace this government with a Conservative government.
I guess number 2 would be:
2. Have a confident leader who was able to actually stand in front of the media and articulate an analysis of the situation and plan. By confident I mean someone who could calm the fears of both the market and people at home. You will remember that Gordon is skulking in the bunker.
At number 3...........
3. A plan. The Conservatives are calling for a plan from the government (the people with their hands on the levers and who know which companies are begging for a bail out etc). Until they have all the information at their disposal.... the Conservatives have been putting forward legislative plans that would calm some of the problems and which they would help Gordon put into legislature in a couple of days. Needless to see 'Bunker Brown' hasn't replied.
Wake up sunshine......
Labour are only interested in looking after themselves and clinging to their jobs - they will not help protect the economic pressures either on you or your family.
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#129
Its been going on for decades
I'm glad you mentioned the debt factor,
that will be the underlying nightmare to come........
Britain has to grow up and start to advance its own economy....
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#29 egrid1
"BBC reported Wednesday morning
FSA stated that HBOS was:
"a well-capitalised bank that continues to fund its business in a satisfactory way"
BBC reported this morning
"Alistair Darling added that without the deal the outlook was "very bleak indeed...We were onto their (HBOS's) problem for several weeks. It didn't just suddenly happen,"
If these reports are accurate, together they are surely damning evidence. It is obvious that Brown, Darling and the rest are incompetent, now we know these bungling fools are duplicitious as well. These idiots are running the country. I say "running"
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So now Gordon Brown is reduced to spouting platitudes. Here is a response, He has taken us all to the bank, and he has really cleaned us up!
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anyone else notice that Charles is no longer supporting Brown's leadership or economic competance.
Things arent as bad as the media would like us to think, and nowhere near as good as The government would like to portray
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#130 jonathan_cook :
So you think that the three things that the Conservatives would do differently if elected are:
1. Not let the present government continue in office. A radical suggestion, that!
2. Have a leader who can smooth-talk the electorate.
3. Ask Gordon what to do.
Brilliant.
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What we need is a leader who can be proactive rather than reactive...
To even dare to suggest 'cleaning up' the finance industry is an insult to the countrys collective intelligence. HE was at the helm for 10 years, HE introduced the current regulatory framework... and now we are all meant to be grateful that the great architect of no more boom and bust is going to fix it?
Please take the hint Gordon and GO...
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i cannot believe people have any doubt that gordon brown is to blame.Who was it in charge turning a blind eye while banks dished out credit cards and loans to just about anybody who wanted money.They was all to happy to sit back and laugh as they created mini retail booms etc without worrying about the effects it would have when banks wanted or needed there money back and people couldnt pay.We didnt see him singing american policy when houses across the atlantic was being taken back.Brown bush and blair embarked on one of the most damaging monetry policies of modern time giving people money for nothing to make them happy so they could stay in power.I hope people remember them for who they are 3 of the biggest clowns in history.
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Pitiful Nick truely pitiful,what really sticks in my craw though is the fact you get a hefty salary paid out of my tv licence fee to post this drivel.Fortunately the vast majority of the reading public totally disagree with you.
Bravo !! to them.
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#132 Ilicipolero
I am aware of the correct spelling of duplicitous. There is no facility here to edit posts. It is the perfect description for El -Gordo.
Will you please check out by 1000 in the morning?
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Brown keeps missing the point I think. Talking about 'cleaning up cities' at this juncture seems strange. He persists in blaming outside influences for current problems, when people know this only too well, and don't need to hear it time and again, it's clear, but what they / we want is action now on issues directly affecting the monthly incomes, and clear policies on family-business-based financial answers, and they are not not coming.
I believe his time is really up, but the next leader (again not elected) will have a tough time, with the whole country - as it does - slavering over such political infighting...
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I agree that debt is a problem for the economy, but it is important IMO to recognise that it is not government debt. The ratio of public debt to GDP is currently 43.3%, significantly up since last year because of Northern Rock (which represents about 6% of the total). In April 1997 the ratio was 44.8%.
The problem has been that individuals have exercised their own freedom of choice in how much they could afford to borrow, and the banks have been largely free to exercise their own professional judgement as to how much it was safe to lend. Both may have got it wrong, but it's a bit difficult to justify blaming Brown for that. Would any government have acted to prevent people buying their own home? or running up a credit card debt?
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135 Jimbrant
....head out of the weeds time Jimbrant.....
Nope. Not looking for a plan from Gordon Brown (we've seen where that ends up).
I'm saying we need a plan - based on analysis and facts. The idiots are in charge of the countries dashboard at the moment - soon they will be gone.
The sort of plan we need to get us out of this mess needs to be based on the real facts - and the plan also requires someone to find where Labour have buried the 'economic bodies'.
Jimbrandt - I'm interested in a real plan that works - not some Labour fudged figure, fake delivery, Alistair Campbell positioned achievement. The country is too important to be left as Labour's social experiment plaything any more.
Every day Labour remain in power - it will be more costly and more painful to right their volumous wrongs.
You could do something positive for the country Jimbrandt - either:
- fell Gordon
- Get involved and shape Conservative policy
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Jimbtrant
Have you been watching Question Time tonight....... ?
You Labour stalwarts would seem advised to:
1 - hire Vince Cable as a temporary Chancellor (Dimbleby)
2 - Slim government (Hislop and Wolfson)
3 - Be scared of the PFI timebomb (Hislop)
Points 2 and 3 - you Zippy, George, CEH, DH Wilkinson, Derek Barker and Bungle..... all think the people on this blog who point out those things out are 'ranting one trick ponies'.
....come on Jimbrandt..... I'm determined to get you to see the light.
This isn't football you know - where you support the same team for life. This is just as important, but with different rules. There is no point backing one horse to rule us all our lives. Sometimes change is needed.
Labour are a spent force. Get involved in shaping the future!
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#143
Change for change sake?
How would the tories or the liberals make a difference?
We had a insight last week to the liberals, however they failed to put a line on their tax cut proposals...and had 20Bn savings they didn't know what to do with.
The tories..well..many would suggest that there irresponsibile time in office(1979 1997) was boom and bust on a monthly scale...many also suggest that thatchers free trade policy and de-regulations are a result of todays down-turn.
Mr cook.....oooooo.....come on
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Could I also point out Mr Cook, that I have never been in favour of PFI...PPP...
If you want to accuse then get it right,
I'm calling for better British assets.
Not some streamlined tory class tripe.
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Jimbrandt
........ are you watching The Daily Politics this evening?
Dianne Abbott says she understands that the Cabinet will top Gordon if he loses the Glenrothe by-election.
...... you know what to do. Campaign Conservative in the forthcoming by-election. It will be worth it.
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#143 - interesting Question Time, and a rare besting of a shadow minister by a government minister (Harriet Harman no less, or the HarPerson as the more witty contributors to this blog call her - I wish I had their comedic skill).
Alan Duncan was outlining the latest Tory thinking on the economic situation (do what Labour are currently doing, criticise past performance, blame Brown). Regulate more is apparently the Tory answer (or at least this is what they are saying they would do, at least this week).
Harriet Harman dug up a quote from George Osborne from Hansard last year saying the regulation on mortgage providers should be abolished - the exact opposite of their apparent policy today.
Lots of bluster from Duncan. Denied it to start with, then accepted it happened and had no real comeback.
The first punch on the butterfly-like Tories I've seen a Labour minister successfully land for some time and a very bloody nose delivered.
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I'm glad folks are coming around to spotting how big business (authority, regulation, and design) and how we relate together (communications, media, and marketing) need fixing. All the ducks are in a row and all it needs is a big push for the whole mess to be scooped up and chucked in the trash. Gordon couldn't have asked for a better result if he'd planned it. But, if Gordon thinks like his personality type suggests he probably did.
Natural strategists have mega-plans, and working the top and bottom, left and right, inside and outside into shape is a wierd thing. The goals are always be there but the steps between here and there can obscure this. As circumstances change, so the response changes, until everything comes together. When the penny drops the storm clears and everyone gets it. This is the end game of the third act I commented on months ago.
Gordon's in for life. Get used to it.
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143 Johnathan cook
Dimbleby is a BBC journalist. The only party they aren't giving a hard time to at the moment are the shadowy secretive Conservative party. Don't take beeb journalists that seriously anymore. They are openly in favour of the Conservative party. Wow he can read a speach without an autocue and that Nick Clegg cheated. Actors learn lines. People pretending to be something they aren't. Impartiality at the Beeb is no more.
I can't stand Ian Hislop the satirical magazine editor who doesn't know anything about current affairs. He keeps saying "I'm a tory you know" all the way through "Have I got news for you"or the Paul Merton show as it should be called. He's a proud Conservative, Thats probably why he doesn't know anything. So I will ignore his pearls of wisdom.
The public are obviously looking for a scapegoat This government cannot change whats happening in the U.S. Its greedy bankers who are at fault and you are asking us to support the party that gave us yuppies. No thanks.
This blog doesn't shape the future. I would say that your rainbow analogy best describes the Conservative party considering 'Dave' talks a bit like Geoffrey, Zippy is Boris obviously.
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144 (Ronnie) Barker
Give the Liberals a break - finding £20Bn saving - given the total level of government expenditure - that is just a pin prick!
Of course the Liberals found it difficult to explain - they are only just 'getting with the programme' of what the country needs.
You critiscise the Conservative - who did break the strike prone culture and get us back on the footing of being a work based and competitive culture on a global scale. They, of course, weren't perfect.
Look at Labour at the moment . For a large chunk of the last 11 years of that time you wouldn't want them running a Bring and Buy Stall - let alone the country.
So I'm arguing not just for changes sake - I'm saying, that you should get involved. Have a say in shaping future Conservative policy. Or are you too narrow minded to consider that? I think you could make the jump!
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Nick,
are the financial markets going to have their 'Gilligan' moment with regard to the events over HBoS.
This is a posting which I I made on your log on the 17/9 at 10:22 on Your Fickle Business:
'The FSA which was set upi with Gordon Brown was Chancellor must ac now. Dealings in HBoS must be suspended, this is such a false market that nobody benefits. So, if anybody in this godforsaken government is reading this then do something, share dealing in HBoS must be suspended. Message timed at 10:22. Do something you idiots before it implodes completely'.
Now then we have to ask why dealing in the shares were not suspended.
We also have to ask why market sensitive information with regard to the take-over by Lloyds TSB of HBoS was allowed to be given by the BBC through one of their correspondents.
There must be an inquiry as to who supplied the information to the BBC, when it was given, and why the Editors did not embargo any publication because it could be seen as insider information which should have gone to the market before going onto the BBC news.
There is a conflict because surely financial news should be treated just the same as news from the front in respect of our wars.
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#132
Everything happens behind closed doors. You should know that by now.
The problem is that it was decisions made in 1928 which led to the Great Crash of 1929. There were problems in the New York Stock Market which were solved by putting ever more money into the market.
Eventually all the money was spent, by 1929 there was just no money left. It is next year that you will see the real effluent. This is just a fretaste of what is to come.
In the meantime Britain yet again will be worst placed to deal with this because Gordon will have to go to the country in 2010, he will not be able to delay, unless there is some sort of emergency! Every day this gets worse. America with its toxic loans will survive, but what of us.
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#129
"Was it that he really didn't know what was going on? Or that he did, but turned a blind eye because the unbridled mischief in the markets was great in times of credit expansion and boom?
[snigger]
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Just watched last night's "This Week" on iPlayer.
When asked of Gordon Brown's longevity, Diane Abbott said that her [b]"understanding"[/b] is that if Labour lose Glenrothes then the cabinet will move against him.
'Understanding' is an interesting choice of words. I think Portillo picked up on that too. His reply was simply "wow".
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148 Charles_E_Hardwidge
Gordon the strategist........... well I suppose so..... he spent years on the plan to topple Tony Blair and without being seen to have (too much) blood on his hands for the PLP to accept him as PM.
.... but....... after the election that never was he said this:
"My first instinct was that I wanted to get on with my job of putting my vision of what the future of the country was to the people of the country and deliver on it before there was ever an election"
What sort of strategy is it to wait 4 months as PM before telling us he was going to set out a vision and then fail to set out the vision thereafter?
He is about to get toppled either by his own party or the electorate. The strategy seems flawed.
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Latest from Ofsted:
'Teaching to test' is failing pupils, says watchdog.
Nearly half of maths classes seen as not good enough.
Although exam passes are increasing, understanding in the subject is not.
Classic socialism in action.
Increase tax, double the spend and waste much on the way, test and monitor, lower the hurdle, test again, mmmm, just a little lower, one more test, Hurrah, claim victory and task Prezza to reinforce Nu Labours success.
Tractor production really is down and what a surprise a tractor costs double what it used to.
Perhaps if we double the budget again we might just get there.
Dig deep folks.
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Nick,
the BBC have been very good at telling the world about short-selling well here's another one for you.
A bear squeeze.
Now this is where you sell stock you haven't got to somebody but eventually you have to buy it back to cover your short position. Now when you go to buy back there is now a seller, only they know that you are forced buyer, so they will say want a price of GBP1, then they know that you are desperate to cover so they then increase the price to GBP2, and if you are having to pay GBP2 then you really must be desperate so hey lets try GBP3, and so it goes on.
You are so finished, all those gains you made on the way down gone, just like that.
So, commentators, lets have the classic bear sqeeze explained, because the bankers have got the speculators over a barrel, or the short and curlies if you like. They will be, as Alastair Darling will say, they will be well 'pissed off'.
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"I'm going to clean up the city"
With what? A dustpan and brush?
What was Gordon Brown doing for ten years as chancellor?
Ignoring what was going on in the city.
What is jimbrandt on about? First into recession and last out of it? On whose evidence. You make it up a you go along; just like Gordon Brown's reputation for prudence - total fiction.
The whole country knows the government's economic statistics cannot be trusted because they have been wrong before. Alsitair Darling's ridiculous growth projection right in the middle of the biggest credit crisis for a hundred years. Farcical.
Now we are presented with a labour party who are guilty of unparallelled cowardice; no one has the nerve to stand up to a leader who is an abject failure.
Is it any wonder you are losing the argument with the electorate? People don't vote for cowards.
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Nick,
this is disgraceful, the Stock Market is rising and now speculators, sorry these are investors, are making loads of money. What is Darling Gordon going to do about excessive profits being made.
This is totally unacceptable, people making money on the Stock Markets, on the backs of the hard labour by the workers.
This must not be allowed, we must nationalise a bank to show how it must be done in a socialist state, oopps forgot Northern Rock where the government appointed Chief Executive is earning, how much did you say! Oh and they still seem to sponsor a famous football club.
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148 Charles E H
Ref: Gordon's in for life. Get used to it.
That really is too depressing to contemplate
But thankfully its total tosh.
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Re question time last night what worried me the most was the fact Harriet Harman was not only justifying the spending under the labour government (laughable I know as I doubt she even knows what a public school is) but she seemed to suggest it would go on even though there is no money.
Yesterday I heard that the governments borrowing for the year was £12bn over budget before all these schemes re cutting of stamp duty, the short term fix of the 10p tax fiasco, etc, etc were brought out. Thats in 5 months of the year, we aren't even halfway through and the government shows no sign of tightening it's belt but expects us to do so. Do as I say not as I do is the motto from our government.
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155. jonathan_cook
Good point,
Given that he had been waiting for the top job for a decade, you really would have thought that THE NEW VISION RENEWAL STRATEGY would have been rolled out the day after the coronation.
Gordon the strategist. id be working on my exit strategy if I were you Mr B.
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This handy little 'Brown' calculator from the Tax Payers Alliance shows clearly how Gordon is the wrong person to lead us through difficult times
http://www.tpadata.com/browncalculator/
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#148
"Gordon's in for life. get used to it"
I think you'll find that 52% of the population disagrees with you.
This should be enough to ensure that both Gordon and new labour are 'out' for life.
It's enjoyable reading newlabour apologists attempts to defend their 'reputation'; they are straight out of Hans Christian Andersson.
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Nick,
I hope you are all ready for the labour party conference. Don't forget we will hear about the increase to your wage packet after the 10p tax abolition fiasco, talk about political manipulation. Heard Browne on the radio this morning over Pakistan and Afghanistan, of course none of our Special Forces are operating with the Americans going over the border.
Don't forget Predator and Reaper either, one day one will be brought down and then how is that going to be explained.
Oh, and what exactly is happening in Iraq, announcement over the week-end to stop the demonstartions, it's over Terry, it's all over so just shut-up and go away. Yeah, right.
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Gordon Brown will be jettisoned after The General Election. Trust me. Even a majority of his own Labour Party members want him to go.
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107derekbarker
Ref: Why dont we have; not for profit assets in this country anymore?
How true Derek,
In the good old days we used to have loads of them, British Steel, British Leyland, British Coal, The GPO, British Rail, British Gas and many more
And what great days they were.
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How many years has Labour been using the words Fat Cats.
Now all of a sudden Labour are going to clear up.
Come on Labour need the city to help them.
For a starters how many hospitals are now being managed with Private Investments.
This country is up to its neck in debt and Labour talk about no more Boom and Bust.
Well we certainly dont have any boom and by god are we bust.
Good sound financial common sense Mr Brown,I dont think so.
Oh one final thought for next week and the backstabbing Labour Party Conference. You watch and listen as to how many times the words Credit Crunch and world economic problems will be used to hide behind New Labours failings. Everything they have done will be blamed on these events.
They just do not know how to take collective responsibility for the massive problems this country has. It is not all about debt, far from it.
Lost Data, overcrowded prisons, 10p Tax, Pensions, immigration, Iraq, Afghanistan, Tax Payers money wasted on Computer projects, Donations, Expenses, Stealth Taxes, Council Taxes, Car Taxes, Education, Crime, the list could go on and on but I do not have the time to waste on Labour disasters.
Its not all credit crunch and world financial stability Mr Brown.
The best man for the job is GB according to the majority of Labour MP's. 10 years and what do we have to show for it?
They wish for us to trust them and stand by them. Come on what planet do they live on.
I vote that we should send them all to Fantasy Island where they can be left out of harms way.
Bye Gordon and co and have a good trip.
I will even raise a glass of Gordons Gin to that! Oh cant do that to many units and I must not be seen enjoying myself.
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At long last El Gordo appears before his adoring public. Nothing new though don't get too excited, same old, same old.
Over half of party members polled don't believe he is the right person to lead the party into the next General Election. At what point, if ever, will he get the hint?
It seems as though he schemed and plotted to become PM, and nothing, not one single thing will get this man to relinquish the reins of power. It would not suprise me one iota if a spurious pretext was found to delay/avoid a General Election.
Even the Labour supporting contributors here are mellowing, one or two recent posters are expressing doubts about his suitability. If this blog is a fairly representative cross section of opinion, extrapolate the poll result across the country. Even assuming he clings by his finger tips and delays, if it happens, a General Election for eighteen months, the damage is done. A massacre is isurely mminent and thoroughly deserved.
jimbrant, CEH, dhwilkinson, derekbarker and others, reading this why do you suppose El Gordo is so unpopular? Your opinions would be interesting to read.
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How timely the date of the conference is for Brown. Fresh off the front pages of the daily press, the substance of his address will be able to remind delegates of that old iron chancellor. There will surely be a lot of forgiveness. Not out here, not from you and me, as we grind our teeth, but in the hall. And a week in politics....
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154 Sudanim
I saw that program last night as well- I am surprised that the media hasn't picked up on it further today.
If the media are analysing every turn of phrase from people like Miliband and Blears.... you would think that now a Labour MP has come out and said that the proposed 'chop date' for Gordon is after the Glenrothes by-election - that the media would have been talking about this?
On one hand the usual suspects on this blog will say - you can't take notice of Diane Abott - she doesn't know what she is talking about and is a regular rebel.
On the other hand - there is no date announced for the by-election yet is there? It as if Gordon has been told that this is final judgement day and is putting it off for as long as possible hoping some major event will come to his rescue.
I suspect that, for instance, if there is any major act of terrorism in the country before the date is announced - Gordon will somehow find a way of putting the country on a 'semi-war' footing as a tactic to put off electoral judgement of Labour.
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re: 159 T A Griffin (TAG)
I posted something related to this on another blog, basic suggestion that I made was that I think nationalisation is all part of Brown's master plan.
He intends to use the crisis which he intentionally created to merge all the banks together into one massive behemoth, and then nationalise it.
Hey presto, he then has personal control over the bank accounts and mortgages of everyone in the country.
Think I'm paranoid? Maybe, but given his history it wouldn't surprise me at all if he did that, and then passed a law to stop the general election under the excuse of there being a "crisis/emergency situation" and then enacted martial law to stop any unpleasant demonstrations.
I know that sounds extreme/paranoid, but everything this man does is putting him closer and closer politically to Mugabe, Pol Pot, or Stalin as each day goes by.
You wait and see; the next step will be to do something to stop the market from being able to trade certain stocks/shares, rather than just stopping shorts. We're definitely sliding in a rather scary direction. It's quickly moving from an economic problem to a banana republic style political coup.
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It is inevitable that in these turbulent times the governing party will come in for intense criticism.Some of it justified. However, is there anyone that thinks for one moment that any proposal from the song and dance man leading the Tories, or the former European bureaucrat at the head of the Lib Dems would make the slightest difference?
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steeple40 wrote:
"You watch and listen as to how many times the words Credit Crunch and world economic problems will be used to hide behind New Labours failings. Everything they have done will be blamed on these events."
Harriet Harman and company have already been pushing this line for weeks now and of course strictly speaking they are right. We are not to blame for The World Credit Crunch. What they fail to mention is the fact that their exorbitant spending policies over several years leave us uniquely vulnerable to that crisis and that's where the real blame lies.
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167 Carrotts and 107 Derek Barker
Oh yes - British Leyland - British rail et al. those were the days!!
There is one asset that has been forgotten. The old Defence Research Agency which this government sold off t and is now called Qinetiq.
Here is a summary of the conclusion of the National Audit Office:
"In November 2007, the NAO reported that taxpayers could have gained "tens of millions" more and was critical of the incentive scheme given to QinetiQ managers, the 10 most senior of whom gained £107.5m on a total investment of £540,000 in the company's shares.
The return of 19,990% on their investment was described as "excessive" by the NAO. The role of QinetiQ's management in negotiating terms with the Carlyle Group, while the private equity company was bidding for the business, was also criticised by the NAO. Carlyle bought a third of the business for £42m which grew in value to £372m in less than four years"
.... could this be yet another example that shows that Labour do not know how business or markets work? Thank the lord they are in charge of the country at this turbulent economic time.
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#172 "Everything this man does is putting him closer and closer politically to Mugabe, Pol Pot or Stalin as each day goes by".
Yes - I have heard about Cameron and Osbourne getting arrested, thrown in jail and tortured. And closing the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph down - what happened to free speech? The rounding up and mass genocide of Lib Dems at their conference was the final nail in the coffin. I hear that the Tory conference in Birmingham is not going to happen due to the declaration of martial law and a state of emergency necessitating the banning of any political gatherings. The statisticians have been infiltrated too - the 5% inflation rate is plain wrong - its more like 5 million% - anyone can see that. And think of the starving Tories of the home counties - it's shocking that you can only find food if you carry the Labour party card.
And preventing the BBC or any major news channel reporting any of this. The mans a disgrace.
Just like Mugabe, Pol Pot and Stalin - completely agree.
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First a couple of quotes (from Americans)
?Government is instituted for the common good; for the protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness of the people; and not for profit, honour, or private interest of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, the people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government; and to reform, alter, or totally change the same, when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it.? - John Adams, Thoughts on Government, 1776
?Economic matters are important, but gross national product does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages; the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage; neither our wisdom nor our learning; neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country; it measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile. And it can tell us everything about America except why we are proud to be Americans.? - U.S. Senator Robert Kennedy, the brother of President John F. Kennedy, 1968.
Politics is no longer in the hands of politicians, much less the electorate. Politics is in the hands of an exceeding small and self-interested band of capitalists.
Certainly only a party of the left can clean up the city. The problem is that New Labour are no longer a party of the left. We don?t have any party of the left. I?m not saying that a militant ?comrade? style left is the kind of left we need either. We need something new...
?Free Markets? don?t and have never existed, and for good reason. Any unfettered free market would destroy the planet in no-time-flat. Capitalism is simply a ?race to the bottom?. A society where everyone is trying to fleece everyone else. Socialise risk, privatise profit. Just look at the nasty; me-first society it has created.
Neither will a Centrally Planned Economy work. Inherent corruption and the complete stifling of innovation have put this economic style firmly out in the cold.
Decentralisation and real, representative democracy are what is needed. How we achieve that is down to us all, but one thing is for certain: we cannot continue treating people as numbers, as automatons for industry, as wage-slaves.
The only thing that really matters is people and their happiness. It?s time we moved on and really paid attention to what that actually means, and what is necessary to achieve it.
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#176. I've heard that too.
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175. jonathan_cook
I was being Ironic.
Derek doesnt notice. But you should!
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Why so long? Can't he do it now. There are number of steps he can take now.
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179 Carrots......
I was also being ironic...... does'nt work on e-mail sometimes in black and white...!
I know exactly where you were coming from
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180. alphaGlen
Pay attention, that is not the way of things here.
We need a period of analysis paralysis first, followed by a review by an old buddy followed by the announcement of a date of an announcement.
Interesting how quickly th US moved to act isnt it when they were faced with a melt down of a bank and the market.
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It's interesting that Labour want to rely on Brown's vast experience as chancellor - hang on...
you mean the chancellor that abolished boom and bust?...until we busted, not planning for this Brown racked up public debt (which has led to a ticking off from the EU btw), whilst increasing taxes and spending
Labour's card has always been "but the economy's good" - that's always been the response, aside from the occasional "it was the previous tory government's fault", as long as we were doing well economically labour were the best thing ever
But now that's all sinking into the mud Labour call upon the great Brown who hasn't got us into this at all, because it's the world's fault and he's the best man for the job because he knows economics...
He does, he knew that further deregulating the banks would encourage investment, which propelled london into prominence as other world markets suffered, he sold the gold for some cash and labour, as they love to claim, raised investment in the public sector by several factors - apart from there's one problem with doing that - all that spending was based on those huge debts, and the money produced in the city was based on dodgy credit, a bubble which was always going to pop - this is incredibly similar to the 1920s
and so Brown was the equivalent of a yuppie living the fast lane, who didn't save, but spent his money on a new car every week, then he lost his job and had no money saved for a rainy day, couldn't pay his gas bill or mortgage and his home got repossessed
maybe brown is the man that can restore the situation, but if labour aren't going to take the blame then they can't take the credit - which is something theyve been guilty of for a decade - they can't have it both ways, and frankly does Brown deserve a chance - "it's ok, I know i did wrong, but i'm so clever I knew this would happen and will rescue us" - try actually saying something useful, even what i just wrote might work, gordon
a poor leader who *might* be the better choice for the economy does not inspire confidence - which is the fickle thing which holds the financial world together - a new administration is required
however, don't vote for Cameron - he who has not a single economic policy to his name, heading a party that are simply biding their time knowing they'll walk into power without lifting a finger - the cynical nature of what the tories are doing is abhorrent - if you know what's good for you vote for the people with Vince Cable, the only man in parliament with any sort of decent economic ideas - but that'll never happen will it?
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181. jonathan_cook
Phew, I was feeling a little queasy there for a minute
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160) CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
Why do you even bother to read Charlie browns ramblings?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/7624470.stm
Watch this and consider this is also labours heartland.
Manchester has never voted Tory so there is an ingrained bias there anyway. But it?s pretty much bad news for brown.
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Just a thought.
Is it REALLY true, that a consumer-led boom, funded by cheap credit, weak controls over bank lending, weak controls over the regulatory environment in which banks operate, an explosion in public expenditure and a weakened insolvency regime ("the Government has a scheme for you to write off 75% of your debts .Join Now", has NOTHING to do with the Government?
Pull the other one.
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182. At 11:54am on 19 Sep 2008, CarrotsneedaQUANGO2 wrote:
So what is the way things are here? If things go wrong ran and hide and wait? When thing are good going around shouting how cleaver I am?
This is Brown and his supporters way of buying time.
We had this government for 11 years if they had been analysing and monitoring the market we will not be in this mess now.
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187. alphaGlen
Now youre paying attention.
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Carrot
You really have one hollow head
are you as daft as you make out
there is a gobal (gobal) down turn,
Look, I know its hard for you (numpty) but try and back up any of your arguments with some policies and if you cant do that! try and give a clear reason about your type of political stance.
Cook......so you think a return to the 1980's is a good idea......
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Oh look at the news.... share prices are surging........
The American government has ensured that it is has got a few quid up its sleeve for a rainy day - announced an economic recovery plan and share prices have 'rebounded sharply'. The US must have large stocks of gold in the vaults to be so confident to make such a bold move.......
I feel glad that in the UK we have been able to do our bit too.....
The recent announcement that there was a deal on 'lagging' to calm a jittery public and then the second big move, namely that Gordon is going to clean up the city some day - have clearly sent similar supportive shockwaves to further fuel the American governments efforts.
Three cheers for Gordon and his big clunking, economic genius fist. Hip Hip......
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#190
Yes..lets hope it holds
America has had 18 MONTHS of this down turn.......Yes....18 months
100Bn do you call that a bit!
honestly...one flew over the cooks nest.....
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John Prescott has urged his party to unite behind Gordon Brown and has confirmed that he is setting up an organisation to campaign for a fourth term of Labour government.
- To "proudly" defend Labour's record since 1997
- To support the government in developing new policies
- To encourage greater participation in the Labour party
- To highlight the damage a Tory government could do.
John, I'd keep quiet if I were you - unless you're needed to punch somebody (perhaps you've a future job as the Labour party whip) you're best left to play in your two Jags.
- Labour's record in just about everything since 1997 is appalling
- The government is devoid of any talent or ideas
- Who wants to be associated with this bunch of incompetent cheats and liars?
- What about the damage Labour have already done!!?
Until Brown became PM I had little or no interest in politics. However, I'm now fervently behind anything to get this God awful excuse of a government out of power and cast into the wilderness forever.
I've had enough. Go, just go.
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last night Hariet Harman said there was no one in the party near Brown's stature and authority - a recent poll found that the majority of *Labour* voters wanted rid of Brown, and obviously I don't need to state the usual opinion polls
so the country doesn't want him or labour, his own party don't want him, there's no one anywhere near as good as him in the party by their own admission - that to me suggests labour have no right to dare try a leadership election without first going to the polls and losing very badly - they should be forced out, can we do that...?
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#190 - Where does this myth that "The American Government has assumed it has a few quid up its sleeve for a rainy day" come from?
They have a LARGER debt than us, so by definition LESS saved for a rainy day.
Where they differ is that their politicians are more willing to accept a larger debt.
From what you have been saying on this blog, it is clear you think debt as even 40% of GDP is too much. So how you conclude that debt at 60% of GDP demonstrates how the US has saved for a rainy day I do not understand.
And the interventions seem to me to be nationalising a lot of assets, given loans on the never-never to struggling companies, and taking bad debts that the private sector accrued onto the public books. Is that what you want? Did you support the Government in nationalising Northern Rock?
It just makes your arguments seem ridiculous if you continually make things up.
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#192 Labours record is appalling?
Hmm - so how come one of the three reasons why the Conservatives are now so popular that they've accepted a lot of these 'appalling' decisions that Labour have made.
Are Cameron's policies appalling too? Or do you share my view that it is all lies and that the new Tories are a trojan horse for the real Conservatives to gain power?
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190. jonathan_cook
Jonathan
Gordons toiling as we speak in his bunker, frantically writing his triumphant acceptance speech for his adoring puppets.
Our victorious and jubilant leader will emerge this evening to bask in the glory.
Rejoice, rejoice in the first lord of the treasury.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7624961.stm
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190) jonathan_cook
'Three cheers for Gordon and his big clunking, economic genius fist. Hip Hip......'
listens for the cheeers and Hears the sounds of crickets chirping
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I don't think that events during the recent week will do Brown any good. If anything, they have condemned the economic record he trumpeted up until a year ago - he ignored the risk that resulted in the recent problems in the financial sector. Everyone else, from the Lib dems to the Tories, were warning people about how the situation developed, but Brown did nothing.
What makes a difference between economic difficulties turning into a full blown economic crisis is confidence. The less confident people get, the less they spend....etc - it all starts from there. Before you know it, the oil that greases the wheels has dried up as everyone is battening down their hatches.
So we need to stop the decrease in public confidence. But how can we do that when our present PM inspires only pessimism?
Tbh, I think Brown is a fairweather PM - the only reason he is where he is now is because of the stupid internal politics of the Labour Party. They were so eager to see the back of Blair that they allowed someone so fundamentally flawed to run for the leadership unnopposed. That was bad enough, but the electorate didn't get to have a say either.
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189. derekbarker
Tempted as I am to joust Derek, Im way out of my depth.
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From what I can make out (although I might be wrong), the americans do have a much bigger government debt than us proportionally, which is because:
1) Their system has had a bigger proportional amount of their cash tied up in the "irresponsible" aspect that Brown keeps going on about.
2) They've created extra government debt to try and avoid the recession getting too deep by giving their people tax breaks.
The american level of government debt seems to be more tied into giving tax breaks and trying to fend off a financial collapse, whereas our level of debt seems to be more tied to insane levels of public spending.
However, both the UK and the US have followed the same path of letting their systems continue without adequate regulation for quite a few years. On that front it seems that Brown just followed what the Americans were doing without trying to limit the risk to the uk economy.
The americans started to do something about the pending recession and the credit crunch quite early on, whereas Brown just stands idly by in complete denial doing nothing until it's too late.
The UK and the US are easily the hardest hit by all this, because it's really only those 2 countries that allowed the regulation to disappear for years. Other countries are suffering the side effects, but the UK and US are right inside the eye of the storm because they created that storm in the first place.
Brown could easily have done the same as other countries did (ie understood and monitored/regulated the markets), but he decided not to despite advice telling him it was a disaster waiting to happen.
Personally I'd rather be an american citizen right now, because although they've got a bigger proportional debt, their president seems to be willing to do something about it all, whereas our PM is still in complete denial.
Coupled with the credit crunch is the government over-spending; the US would rather give people back money in their pockets, whereas the UK's answer seems to be to just increase taxes and public spending which doesn't make anyone feel more confident or better off apart from the people who are given all the non-jobs.
Brown's solutions are short-term sticking-plasters which are just storing up more problems in the future; he's not addressing any of the fundamentals because he doesn't understand them.
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Watch your money burn:
http://cluaran.free.fr/debt.html
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HBOS up 50%? So was that Lloyds_HBOS merger really necessary? Did the financial right hand know what the left hand was doing? Does it yet?
This comes from one financially naive I admit, but does this mean Gordon is quickly rewriting his conference speech - or crumpling it up and throwing it over his shoulder? If the US is doing all this on its own, how much can he claim for his clean-up, and how much credit can he expect to get for it? Many will shout 'too little too late'.
Interesting times indeed for the man from Fife.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I think the following encapsulates Crash Gordon and his motley crew brilliantly.
'Ok team. All together now ... PULL!'
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#195
if you wish to defend the newlabour record (and the debt in the US is the same as a percentage as in the UK), kindly explain why we have arrived at this point without having spent a penny on infrastructure for eleven years.
So you may well argue that you think we are in now worse postion than other develoed countire but they have arrived at this position without having gone on a repair, mainteneace and improvements holiday for eleven years.
More on PFI per month than the toreies managed to clock up per year yet not one power station, motorway, airport or road built than those already on the drawing board eleven years ago.
This is a disgraceful record of neglect of the key thing that keeps the economy going - infrastructure.
Go and consult with your other fellow Downing Street advisors and the great man himself (jimbrandt) about this wasted opportunity.
All those oil revenues and you couldn't build one power station.
Incompetence, arrogance, hubris, waste. Newlabour fingerprints everywhere.
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Brown's 'great idea' of Lloyds TSB taking over HBOS (which, funnily enough, has been under discussion for some weeks and for which he now wishes to 'take credit') will leave him exposed to anger from two core segments of diminishing supporters: ex-BOS Scots (historically Labour supporters) and ex-Halifax workers (also historically Labour supporters).
Hence the frantic inclusion of 'clauses' to ensure that fewer jobs would be lost north of the border. This is sure to annoy both groups.
Of course, when the job losses are in the tens of thousands, or the deal goes sour (or is blocked by the EU), then Brown will say it's nothing to do with him.....
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What's in it for Gordon? Or the Government for that matter?
Politicians rarely do these things unless it's for personal or political gain. So - his timely intervention is going to save Britain's banking system, is it? I won't hold my breath. If they can't clean up their own acts, how can they expect the financial institutions to clean up theirs?
The very unpopular Mr Brown has to be seen to be doing something positive in this sea of desperation, where people are losing their jobs, homes and savings. The fact that the Banks have not made as much profit as they would like to, is purely because of their own mismanagement and negligence in lending monies to borrowers who couldn't afford to pay the loans back, and because the square mile is virtually all this country has left to support its economy, all the stops have to be pulled out to save it. It's nothing short of scandalous!
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#171 jonathan_cook
Re This Week
I hear what you're saying, but I'd say to them that though Diane has her rebellious streak, I felt she wasn't so keen to jump to Brown's defence as she had up until the program took a break in July.
She's closer to the inner workings of the Labour Party than even Nick is, and is also likely to know what the rebels (who have yet to declare themselves) are thinking.
I got the distinct impression they've all been told that Glenrothes is the 'line in the sand' to keep them from rocking the boat until then.
If Brown loses there, then I think the end will be swift.
If he wins, then the infighting will carry on, and Labour will limp towards complete annihilation if Brown leads them into an election.
And I don't choose the word 'annihilation' lightly. I think the Tory majority has the potential to be so big it Labour couldn't hope to overturn it in the space of just one term.
Sadly, I think you're right about Brown hanging on, hoping for an event that changes his fortunes. But I hope it's not a terrorist event - I don't think even he'd be that cynical! Besides, the train bombing didn't do the Spanish government any favours.
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O' dear Carrots....been refered to the moderation team.........tut .....tut....tut
WHat up! Carotts......is the bunny biting
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Well it looks like those NuLabour numpties not content in going for one record, a clown for PM, are now going for another record.
A vast hole in the public finances was revealed yesterday.
The Treasury was on course to borrow up to 70 billion pounds for the year as a whole, well above the record 51 billion pounds deficit set by John Major's government in 1993 and set to be the largest since postwar records began.
The details are given in this article.
Note the report is given in the article directly below the cartoon, which I think is brilliant and sums up NuLabours current predicament.
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194 Balhamu
I have a problem that our debt has been ramped up over 11 years through whizzing our money up the wall on hair brained schemes and un-reformed services. Value for money we ain't seen.
Personally - given the level of change I've seen since 1997 - based on the additional taxes we have been paying compared to 1997 levels - I'd be surprised if £9 pounds out of every £10 pounds spent by this government has had any real effect.
As for national debt......
The 'supposed' 40% level of debt that we have in the UK is an arbitrary measure - it doesn't have to be this level, it could be 10% - it could be 90%.
If Gordon thinks it important to keep debt at circa 40%, then he has clearly spent right up to his self imposed debt threshold and left no room for manoeuvre (in the countries overdraft) to afford to pay his way out of problem of any sort.
Do I think the national debt should be lower than 40%.........
Given the value for money achieved by Labour - yes. They have wasted money for 11 years.
Do I think level of debt should be increased abouve 40% to help solve the economic crisis....
Yes - if the government can come out with a convincing recovery plan - why not? I'd be especially supportive if they said something along the lines of.... we will increase national debt by 5% now in order to stop dire economic circumstances causing our national debt to rise by 15% - which will happen if we do nothing.
But............
It has to be said - the Americans have come out with a bold plan to reverse the economic problems and they put a significant amount of money where their mouth is. Gordon hasn't.
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169 Ilicipolero
"jimbrant, CEH, dhwilkinson, derekbarker and others, reading this why do you suppose El Gordo is so unpopular? Your opinions would be interesting to read."
Who is El Gordo? Oh you mean you are being hilarios and saying he is like a dictator in a banana republic or something like that. Exaggeration is Very amusing.
Here is my view. Its Scapegoating. People feel powerless and want someone to lash out at for the world Economic crisis we are having. After recent events you can't deny that. Northern Rock is but a drop in the ocean.
Of course Dave knows that people will hate all politicians at the moment they will lash out from frustration at anyone who says "We feel your pain" or similar, so is taking a bit of advice from the Quiet man Ian Duncan Smith shutting up and allowing his army of enthusiastic emailers to do his work for him.
Of course the conservatives in power would be able to do what they like and say they are repairing labours alleged damage. Because the Big book of stereotypes says Conservative=good for the Economy, Labour and lib dem=Bad for the Economy.
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#210
A nationalist that reads the mail.....???????
Eh....Eh......Eh......Wow!
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206. MaxSceptic
Hence the frantic inclusion of 'clauses' to ensure that fewer jobs would be lost north of the border
Now thats news; do elaborate.
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#206 MaxSceptic
Spot on!
No doubt the HBOS share price will continue to rise, the enlarged group will use their dominant position to rack up even more obscene annual profits with the tacit approval of fat Gordo and Darling, who was quoted as saying "financial stability must trump competition fears"
Meanwhile, back in the real world, 14000 odd former group staff start their search for alternative employment. It will be interesting to see how many of the estimated redundancies occur in Scotland.
How many Labour MP's are there in Halifax and West Yorkshire, I'd like to hear their opinions on the whole crooked scheme.
Meanwhile, back in cyber world, that deafening silence echoing everywhere is the sound of red derekbarker, CEH, dhwilkinson, jimbrant and the lads refuting this and other scenarios whilst talking up El Gordo as the only man capable of steering the good ship UK economy away from the rocks. They're probably quite correct of course because he drove it there in the first place, and the course of action was only ever in his head and made up on the fly.
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190) jonathan_cook
'Three cheers for Gordon and his big clunking, economic genius fist. Hip Hip......'
Shouldn't that be 'Flunking... fist...' ? :)
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208# SudaNim
Just to savour the flow of events in Scotland prior to the Glenrothes by-election.
The SNP has held the ward of Baillieston on Glasgow City Council.
David Turner (SNP) was elected to represent the ward in a by-election prompted by the resignation of John Mason who left the council following his victory for the SNP in the Glasgow East by-election, a seat which used to be one of Labour's safest in Westminster.
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Now that this week has exposed the reckless incompetents running big business in the USA and the UK, will the general public be justified in bursting into fits of laughter the next time a journalist reports that a trade union in dispute with an employer, seeking a few extra crumbs from the table, is threatening the economy and national interest
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208# SudaNim
Just to savour the flow of events in Scotland prior to the Glenrothes by-election.
The SNP has held the ward of Baillieston on Glasgow City Council.
David Turner (SNP) was elected to represent the ward in a by-election prompted by the resignation of John Mason who left the council following his victory for the SNP in the Glasgow East by-election, a seat which used to be one of Labour's safest in Westminster.
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#211
"It has to be said - the Americans have come out with a bold plan to reverse the economic problems and they put a significant amount of money where their mouth is. Gordon hasn't."
He doesn't have any!!! He didn't 'save any for a rainy day while the sun was shining' as the Tories keep saying... Maybe he can make some more though by cutting the 20% tax band and leaving everyone paying 30%...
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206 Maxsceptic
Ref: Browns Great idea to save HBOS
I sense the hand of Alistair Campbell on this one:
1. Alistair Campbell took to the airwaves yesterday in defence of the government. He's back from retirement.
2. The story was deliberately positioned in the press reports. I seem to remember it went something along the lines of "Gordon happened to bump into the chairman of Lloyds a couple of days ago and convinced Lloyds to come to the rescue of HBOS".
3. Lloyds wanted the deal and Gordon has waived the competition rules. Ychipped in and said to Lloyds - if you want this deal - you had better position to the press that Gordon has orchestrated the deal.
4. Gordon's collapse has meant that people and the press have started questioning the Labour record properly for the first time in 11 years. Campbell and Prescott know they have achieved little and are coming out fighting to try and shore up their own reputations first, and keep Labour in power second.
On yesterdays Channel 4 news Campbell had a go and said the press should be harder on the Conservatives.
I'd say if they are going to be harder on the Conservatives - that the press should also make up for 11 years lost time and get forensic on Labours delivery record.
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Interesting (and failed) attempt today by the Downing Street advisors - CEH, derekbarber, balhalmu, jimbrandt et al - to mount a counter attack on the newlabour record and reputation ahead of the conference next week.
Just keep on bombarding them with the facts and figures; mounting debt, no investment in infrastructure, hair brained expansion of public sector jobs, snooping culture etc...they back away with their tails between their legs.
What will be truly hilarious will be Gordon Brown's attempt to claim they are the party of the many not the few; too true for it's the many who have been hit by the credit crisis and the incompetence of his government. Sadly it's only the few who will benefit from his measure to help on fuel bills and in the housing market. And with an even richer irony it is not only the few who support him and the many who oppose him and want him to be sacked.
The many are now suffering form a higher tax burden; 45% average tax burden vs 37.5% in 1997.
It's the many who have been ill educated by this government; literacy is ower thatn in 1997...we have dropped from 7th to 17th in the world during their tenure despite an avalanche of money and testing.
It's the many who ahev become poorer than our neighbours; GDP per capita was on a par with Ireland in 1997 - they are now better off to the tune of 20% per person after eleven years of newlabour waste.
So Gordon Brown has indeed a rich record of making the many poorer, worse educated and higher taxed.
Congratulations. Enjoy your conference.
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re: 212 dhwilkinson
I stand by my analogy of Brown being like Pol Pot, Stalin, or Mugabe.
He's actively been pushing for the slavery of immigrants ("compulsory voluntary work") and children ("apprenticeships") (that relates to unpaid and enforced work).
Brown and Blair colluded to ban demonstrations from anywhere near Parliament. (wear a t-shirt within half a mile of parliament that says "war is bad" and you'll be arrested as a terrorist).
Passing laws which allow councils to snoop on your rubbish.
Trying to pass laws that track/log every single phone conversation and email in the country (except those of the government of course, who will be exempt).
ID Cards ("show us your papers, comrade...")
It's a slow "creep" towards the nasty police state that labour want to have, but that's definitely where we're steering. The problem is that a lot of people don't notice it because it's incremental.
If Thatcher had stood up 20 years ago and told people "I will snoop on your bins and log all your phone calls, and I can dump you in prison for 42 days with no warning/reason when you don't agree with me" then what would you have thought?
There are literally hundreds of examples of where Brown/Blair have acted like the despots in a banana republic, and I for one will be glad to see the back of labour in 2010 because of that.
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212. dhwilkinson
Did you say LABOURS ALLEGED DAMAGE?
Did he really say that?
If you cant see the damage, then the only place you can be is in prison, as thats the only place in the UK that Nu labour has improved.
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213# derekbarker
Well, Well Derek. We are clutching at straws, or dare I say it, barking up the wrong tree.
I live in the North of England so I imagine even a numpty like you could comprehend how it would be impossible for me to support a Nationalist party. Unless you are talking about the British one whom I utterly detest and loath.
btw I read, and at times contribute to, a whole range of blogs, online papers etc.
Hell I even watched yesterdays FMQ's at Holyrood.
Fantastic thing 'tinternet'.
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#215
The tories raised their heads today..
of all the turm-oil in the economic market
The 1922 brigade...said, they would abolish the 3 diploma course's .............
Obviously...they dont want to bite the hand that feeds.......
polero........what happened...to turn you so anti-social.........fair point (no pun)
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Carrots @214,
From The Times:
"The clause on page one of the formal takeover document promises that ?the management focus is to keep jobs in Scotland?. There is no similar reassurance about jobs in England and Wales."
Also in The Scotsman:
"Concerns that the Bank of Scotland would lose its permission to print Scottish banknotes were quashed yesterday morning. In addition, the management focus is "to keep jobs in Scotland".
Labour supporters in Yorks are not happy bunnies. Under Nu Lab it is grim oop north.
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206 Maxsceptic and 214 Carrots
Yes the HBOS / Lloyds deal was struck and at the very least has been presented in the press (N.B. Alistair Campbell is back) that there will be less job loses north of the border.
.... what a strange co-incidence that the Labour party has said that if Gordon loses the Glenrothes by-election that they will ditch him??!!
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Well I am really beggared beyond belief.
After all the hype Duff Gordon has not got a vision , it was just shorthand for a range of measures that the government believes are necessary.
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This beggars belief. This is the man who for ten years lived off the City and the money they made. Having announced the end of boom and bust, everybody believed the gravy train would go on for ever. Afterall you have to be ancient like me to know that all good things come to an end and as this was a long time coming, it was a crashing end unforeseen by too many who were too young to have seen it all before.
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#200
I think you are clutching at straws to suit your ideological argument that our debt is too high. Now your argument is the ridiculous sounding 'the US has more debt than the UK, but that's because they have saved more for a rainy day'. How does that work? Just accept you were wrong.
1. The current reported US debt does not include their massive financial-crisis related deficits, so your inference that this is the reason for the extra debt is quite wrong.
2. Bush created a structural deficit by his 'temporary' tax-cuts without making a serious attempt to cut spending at the same time.
3. The US are dealing with recession by nationalising all the bad debts that private companies took on. In other words, the US taxpayer is funding the massive bonuses that financiers took home during the fat years, when in fact it should be investors who should have been paying more attention to what was being done. Reverse redistribution (though as a right-winger I know that is probably what you favour). Not something I would be happy with the UK Government doing.
If the situations were reversed, and the UK had 60% GDP, your opinion would change too wouldn't it.
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I have just read a snip of information as follows:-
"I would like to pay tribute to the contribution you and your company make to the prosperity of Britain."
Any guesses as to who said this?
This was our Leader! Gordon Brown said this at the opening of the Lehman Brothers new European Headquarters in 2004!
I hope he's choking on it.
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#225
Glad too see that your not a BNP fan...
couldn't agree more with your sentiments.
Roll-play....do you think that a party that returns a 151 vote majority (in what was a single transferable vote system) is a ringing endorsement of the said party.....
What comprehension are you refering too
Or are you just politically "NUMB"
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7625768.stm
This might be worth a read, and in due course watching.
The phrase, "a bizarre denial of reality" struck a chord. Familiar??!!
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229 Roll-on-2010
.....I am speachless!!!!!
???????????????? What????? What?????
?????? Really???????? Is that it?????
What??????? They are kidding???????
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224 Carrots..
Yes I did. The only thing that will change if Cameron wins is that he will have the previous government to blame. Trying hard to fix the problems labour caused by sticking to their spending plans.Im afraid Dave doesn't have a magic wand that will make this one better. Oil and Gas is running out. Greedy bankers gambling and having to be bailed out.Looking forward to bigger government from the Conservatives introducing more regulation. Again if we now had a conservative government this would still have happened.
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More hogwash! Since both Lloyds TSB and HBOS have their registered offices in Edinburgh and the LTSB group includes Scottish Widows, it is hard to see how more jobs would not be saved north of the border. And please don't tell me the whole thing was restructured in 24 hours to suit GB when the negotiations had been ongoing for 6 or 8 weeks. GB didn't broker this. He simply had them speed up the timetable a bit. And what did they get in return? Exemption from the competition rules. Brilliant Gordon - just brilliant!
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223 getridof....
Have to disagree with you. 'apprenticeships are child Slavery?' This statement has wiped out your entire argument. This is not a dictatorship it is nothing like any of the regimes you have suggested. You are crying wolf one day there will be a dictatorship and we will ignore you.
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I reckon 231 has a point.
However, what I find really odd in all the economic arguments is this:
- in spite of having lower inflation than during the Major recession
- in spite of having lower unemployment than during the Major recession (to be helped in the future by extending the leaving age for school children to 18)
- in spite of having lower levels of interest rates than during the Major recession
that the outlook is so gloomy even Darling said that things haven't been so bad for the past 60 years than they are today.
In point of fact, by the time Major left office the situation left behind by Ken Clarke was about the same we have today but on an ever-improving trajectory. Now, after 10 years of "boom", by all accounts it's going to get worse.
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out that things were going to get worse, since the current account has been running a deficit since 2000; in other words, the Government has been spending more - year on year - during the good times than it was receiving in taxes. The problem with this is that the extra spending has not resulted in more output.
And even worse, independent auditors reports (National Audit Office, Audit Commission, Public Accounts Commmittee) have pointed to financial mismangement; not fraud, just a failure to control money properly.
The crisis we have today has never been a case of just pure bad luck. And the repetition that this is a global problem, as if to distract attention away from all the mistakes that have been made, is delusional.
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224 Carrots...
"If you cant see the damage, then the only place you can be is in prison, as thats the only place in the UK that Nu labour has improved..."
The stereotypes, there must be more to life.
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233# derekbarker
Reckon it is better than a loss of 2,595 votes and being pushed into second place?.certainly in one of your safest seats in Westmidden.
Or are you just a political "PLANK"
Derek you are better off sticking to the scripts you get from Nulabour HQ at Millbank.
Whoops forgot NuLabour could not hang on to that bunker because of their lack of economical nous.
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#241
Economical nous.....Roll up....Roll....up
What are you advocating here......
That the tories are economically sound?
In case it has escaped your notice, the tories are all over the place, trying to re-write their economical plan for,,,proposed government. (regulations included)
Where is westmidden? or is that! a "ROLL PLAY YOUR CURRENTLY INVOLVED" in.
A white-blanket...statement....from the butt end.....lighten up....its not a drama show....IS IT!////////action.....cut//////
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#239 TerryNo2: " the outlook is so gloomy even Darling said that things haven't been so bad for the past 60 years than they are today."
Except that is not what he said, though given the sloppy level of journalism we have had to get used to over recent years you might be excused for thinking so. What he said was that the economic climate (ie the environment in which the economy is operating) might well be the worst for 60 years. If you look carefully you might be able to see the yawning difference in meaning.
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I'm actually amazed that someone of Nicks calibre seems to have been hoodwinked into thinking that Gordon Brown or Alistair Darling actually 'did anything' when it comes to the merger of Lloyds and HBos except get their arms bent backwards by the two bosses of said companys, who are indeed Gordons mates, to dispose of the competetion law.
It may all seem rosie now, but Lloyds Black Horse Halifax Bank of Scotland Trustee Savings Bank is now an out of control monster and just like the cartel of the energy suppliers is going to decimate any competition and ultimately do no good what so ever for the punters.
Can we assume a certain amount of funds popped into Labours personal account and a couple of Knighthoods are on the way?
Dear god, the Mister Men books were more complicated than this plot.
Mr Clumbsy ruins the country, Mr Con Man buys Mr Banker and Mr Plod is non the wiser!
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jimbrandt dhwilkinson balhamu derek barker and ceh....
ref Hoons comment that there is no vision and only a series of measures. see thelink at 229 above.
.... what do you make of that comment?
if nothing else it makes it impossible for labour to attack cameron as vacuous or the conservatives lacking substance. an own goal by hoon.
it also seems to say that the government have no strategy or plan other than short term survival.
I am genuinely shocked that hoon has said that. maybe he is trying to signal to the rest of the labour party that brown is not leadership material and they had better unite and reomove brown fast - if labour are to come up with a vision to take to the electorate.
yours sincerely (in shock) jc.
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245# jonathan_cook
One thing you can say about Teflon Tony his performance at least appeared to resemble joined up thinking. With this rabble it looks like fag-packet policy, limping from one catastrophe to the next.
Was it not Duff Gordon who said, after bottling the GE last year, I have decided to set out my vision for Britain!
Appears he has lost his vision laden fag packets
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My view of the coming years is filled with worry. We are in a situation which is going to get much worse. I read a post earlier that said that in the Major years things were worse, I think this misses the point (and I'm not convinced it's actually true either. Though things are not absolutely brassic yet it's an inevitability that we are going to be crushed by debt.
The fact that finance problems coincide with a global shortage of food makes the situation both perilous and morally complicated. Brown has to hold his hands up and admit that he had a substantial role in us getting us to where we are now.
His party have seen him for being a man of incredible indecision, so why should the rest of us, who have no affiliation to him or the Labour Party, show any loyalty to him.
The only way these problems will be solved is by the government using it's powers to reverse taxation and giving us back our money so we can start spending what we actually have rather than on the never never, as well as genuinely using its clout to draw down the cost of living.
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242# derekbarker:
Well once again your thought process amazes me.
Well whoopee for the Tories!
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Habit and reactivity are overflowing at the moment. After commenting this past year on fundamentals, trends, and how individual entities are going about their business, I'm generally having a good laugh.
Gordon Brown is a master of strategy, and knows that the only plan is to abandon all plans. Meanwhile, the Tories had no plans and are scrabbling to get a plan. It's like watching Bruce Lee pummel a street hood.
As per Ieyasu Tokugawa's rule, big business is about to find out it's Gordon's bitch, and all the usual suspects are going to get a haircut. What can I say? Let order, harmony, and long-term prosperity reign.
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rollon 2010
on the hoon comments....
I was close to ranting and raving and calling the government all the names under the sun when I heard that.
I calmed down a bit on the train and thought to myself there is no point blowing my stack.
I am genuinely disapointed that the government seems to have no vision or aspiration.
sorry about lower case -- am on mobile due to power cut
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#245 jonathan_cook: Like most of today's journos you inflate a molehill into a mountain. We do actually know what Brown's vision is - he has expressed it many times. Fairness, equality of opportunity, dealing with poverty at home and globally, providing the best health care and educational chances to everyone regardless of wealth, etc etc. What he wanted to do was to show how he would try to achieve his vision by a programme of practical policies (which you characterise as "only a series of measures" - how else does a government do anything, do you think?).
Your attempt to get the Tories off the hook is a failure. Do you have any idea what Cameron's 'vision' might be? Can you detail what 'series of measures' he might take to achieve whatever it is? But of course we can't know that until after we have elected him, can we? - we just have to have faith (ie belief without evidence).
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Looks like the stage is being set for next weeks comedy act at Manchester.
Nope the circus has not arrived, it?s the NuLabour show.
I hope that Lancashire West MP Rosie Cooper will be there with her supportive message - Some Ministers can?t put the ball in the net even when they are facing an open goal.
I could say it was refreshing but I feel 52% of us already know that!
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Following his amazing deal-making abilities, surprise, surprise: Brown's popularity [sic] has not improved
As things currently stand, a pig's head on a stick would win an election against this Nu Labour PM.
And, strange but true, a pig's head would have a better chance of running this country sensibly that this headless chicken of a government.
(Note: this is a Friday Evening gratuitous attack on Brown and his band of political midgets. Nu Labour supporters, apologists and other delusional people: please resist the urge to respond, your arguments are futile and it will only further raise your blood pressure. The Party's over. Go home and prepare for political oblivion.)
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250# jonathan_cook
I was beggared beyond belief as well. But after 11 years of smoke and mirrors, spin and spiel, I must say, on reflection, I am not surprised. Ah well we can just put it down to shoddy reporting!
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Chuck E. Hogwash @249 wrote:
"...big business is about to find out it's Gordon's bitch".
Such nice language - where did you learn the prison talk?
I guess that Gordon's 'clunking fist' would have come in handy in the cells. Have you any first-hand experience of this - uh - 'strategy' on your person? You do write as if you have.
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253# MaxSceptic:
Nice blog!
We have had the LibDems in their curtain closer say - Go home and prepare for government
No doubt we will get the same from the Tories, - Go home and prepare for government.
Meanwhile next Friday NuLabour will be saying - Go home and prepare for oblivion!
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jonathan_cook @250 wrote:
"sorry about lower case -- am on mobile due to power cut".
Crikey! Are we back to Labour's 3-day-weeks and power-outs already?
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Life is about goals, processes, and outcomes. Britain, organisations, and individuals all have issues they need to grasp and, sometimes, a little calm, focusing on the goals, and building a coalition of the willing is all you need. It's about culture change or approach, and what we're seeing now is a once in a lifetime, maybe, once in a millennium opportunity. Folks may not like the story so far but we haven't turned the last page yet. It's all "me, me, me" and "want, want, want". Woah there, Hoss. Grasping doesn't make it happen any quicker.
I'd written off the likes of Cruddas as another egoist but I read, today, that he's done an about face and is totally focused on sound governance and would accept a post in Gordon Brown's government. Harriet Harman has discovered a spine, and the greater Labour Party is generally supportive of the leadership. Far from collapsing into oblivion the Labour Party is transforming into one of the most exciting forces in politics that Britian has seen since the creation of the NHS after WWII.
We all make mistakes and have difficulties. By learning from these mistakes and resolving inner disharmony, we're in a much better position to sieze opportunity, make friends, and suceed over the long-haul. Islammed into that reality wall myself and found Zen Buddhism is one way of dealing with it, but there are other ways. But, the key thing is folks develop maturity, enlightenment, or for want of a better description, just start living. Some people would have you believe nothing matters but the choice between living or dying is as big as it gets, and I choose to live.
I'm glad Labour is "getting it". And for those folks who tend to side with the Tories or Liberals, the message is the same. The Tories have to "get it" by giving a shit, and that means creating real opportunities and sharing the wealth. The Liberals have to "get it" by pushing out less bullshit and finger wagging. People can keep behaving like drunks in a bar or get off the wheel of misery and start being winners. I judge that Labour is best placed to deliver that so tend to support them. Instead of bitching, maybe, other folks can just "get it" and we can all be winners. But, to do that they have to let go.
This sort of thing isn't easy. It's taken me nearly 3 years of continuous day by day, hour by hour and, sometimes, minute by minute effort to unlearn some bad habits. Politicians, CEO's, journalists, and folks sitting at home are no different. We all have a whole bunch of Freudian crud in our minds that have built up through school, work, and all the crap life throws at us. It makes us jaded, cynical, angry, and miserable, but letting go and allowing better goals, processes, and outcomes to unfold builds a better alternative.
Let go. Be happy. It's that simple!
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Reel around the fountain...slap and tickle.....
Tory tripe........
Thy Kingdom....Thy Kingdom...for a fatter wallet......
T.....Ta.......Tax......Taxi 4 Cameron............
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257# MaxSceptic
jonathan_cook @250 wrote:
"sorry about lower case -- am on mobile due to power cut".
Crikey! Are we back to Labour's 3-day-weeks and power-outs already?
Surely it can't be its not Winter yet.
Unless NuLabour and, their paymasters, the unions have changed tactics without telling us.
Surprising really with all cabinet leaking going on!
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257# MaxSceptic
Max do you remember the winter of discontent. It culminated in 1979 with the Tories winning the general election with a landslide.
Do you remember the poster they used - Jobless queues stretching to the joke centre, and the slogan Labour isn?t working.
In 2010 they (the Tories) may even save money by knocking the dust of those and reusing them!
Poetic justice really.
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Roll_On_2010,
Labour has never worked - and never will.
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I don?t entirely agree with that max. But another day another dollar as the saying goes!
Time to hit the sack, I was up early this morning. Goodnight
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Max. Fair dos. Labour appeared to work in a lot of people's minds or they wouldn't have been reelected twice. A lot of that I suppose was down to a very weak Opposition. Now they've been so found out and the shoe is so on the other foot. Nothing anyone says on here is going to rescue their prospects for 2010. The forthcoming Party Conference is going to be really interesting. I wonder how they're going to try and extricate themselves from their present predicament. Right now its The USA which is making the biggest moves to solve the credit crisis. GB has nothing left in his armoury to make the slightest difference to anything.
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I've seen kids from a troubled family pull the same stunt when the "leader" made a big deal of "going to sleep". It was really just a naked power play. When his scheme didn't succeed he "woke up" soon enough. Not saying you're pulling the same dodge but that's how it looks to me. It's another reason why I tend to class die-hard Tories as barbarians. Like Osborne and Cameron, they have no sense of learning or patience.
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Oh, come on - why the surprise about LloydsTSB/HBOS concentrating on saving Scottish jobs and sacrificing English ones?
Today, Outokumpo of Sweden announced the transfer of production of certain special steels from their Sheffield plant to Sweden. Of course they did; Outokumpo is Scandinavian and, when given the choice, they invest at home.
Likewise, the English/Scottish Bank takeover, which was steered by Government, and it is deeply political.
Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and half the cabinet are Scottish. Why are the English so surprised that they will favour Scotland and push to save jobs at home at the expense of England? Of course they will.
They are Scottish, and will always put their own country first. Anyone who is even faintly surprised is living in fairyland: the world was ever thus.
Very questionable what, if anything, the English get from the Union. Gordon Brown supports the Union because it suits his own political career, and his purposes. As with the Barnett formula, and much else, governing the so-called 'United Kingdom' has enabled him to support his own country.
If the English are not happy, they had better do something about it.
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So? I'm English and I'm not bitching about it. The way I see it is by cutting a deal Scotland and England can start focusing more on succeeding like, say, creating more industry and community banking. That's a win-win but you've got to ditch the short-term and narrow mind to see it.
Why is it the Tories are always the ones talking up failure and division? They always try to talk Britain into ruin just so they can "win" an election. Man, that's some kind of sicko talk. It's this sort of person that just disses the new diplomas just because they don't understand them or the benefit they create.
When you look at people like Boris Johnson and the Tory frontbench, they're just the sort of people who mouth off but just create trouble. They're so selfish they can't even imagine someone else could act for the best of reasons. You'd think they'd learn by now but it's still the same old nasty party.
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#257 MaxSceptic: "Crikey! Are we back to Labour's 3-day-weeks and power-outs already?"
I know that factual information is not much valued on here, but the 3-day week etc was on Ted Heath's watch. And he was a Conservative, in case you didn't know that.
#264 misswaldorf: "......The USA which is making the biggest moves to solve the credit crisis."
That might just possibly be because that's where the problem was created, don't you think? Similarly it is China that is making the biggest moves to solve the contaminated baby food crisis, while Brown is doing almost nothing, and for the same reason.
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Re;
223. getridofgordonnow....
"If Thatcher had stood up 20 years ago and told people "I will snoop on your bins and log all your phone calls, and I can dump you in prison for 42 days with no warning/reason when you don't agree with me" then what would you have thought?"
Best post of many...
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I think that there is little support for any party leader at the moment. Having trawled several news forums, there are plenty which have a go at Brown, a few allude to Clegg, lots harking back to some mythological era under the Tories, but hardly any extolling the virtues of Cameron (other than pointing out that he isn't Gordon Brown).
I think that the major leader's speech of the conference season will not be Brown's, but Cameron's. We know what we will get with Brown, a lot of well meaning policies delivered without a smile. We will be left with a feeling of 'solid, stolid and it will not lift spirits'. Cameron still has not convinced the public that he is the great leader. His speech must reach the nation and convince them that he is a future PM not by default, but by merit. If he fails, then to quote a Tory before they slightly surprisingly won in 1992, "In the privacy of the polling booth ....."
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257# MaxSceptic
I have found a copy of the 1979 Tory winning poster. Nice thing tinternet.
Winter of Discontent 1
Winter of Discontent 2
Winter of Discontent 3
There is even a recent comparison with the current crisis and the Winter of Discontent in the Telegraph 008.09.2008.
Now some people, especially NuLabour and their supporters will put it down slipshod journalism, attempt to re-write it or dare I say - say it never happened.
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Prior to the Winter of Discontent Inflation peaked at 26.9% in the year to August 1975 under Callaghan who had succeeded Wilson as PM.
But that must be wrong, surely not on Labours watch.
It is little wonder that the Tories won the GE in 1979 after the abysmal performance by Labour.
Unfortunately things are currently stacking up that way today! Do Labour never learn.
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I've been sitting back and watching all the arguing and negativity slide by this week and I don't buy it. Anyone who does just gets sucked into a scrum. I'd rather focus on seeing people state what they're here for, who they're here for, and what the tangible benefits are.
The way I see it is Gordon Brown is, at least, aiming for something better and gave the Tories a chance. But, all the Tories can do is snarl and smother other peoples ambitions. So, how about something illuminating and consensus building for a change?
The biggest problem folks have is getting over themselves. Labour is in the process of doing just that but the Tories are just getting worse the more power they think they have. I'm glad of it in a way as it shows they still have unfinished business of their own to sort out.
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Is it the sign of the times that Gorndon Broon has taken money from JK Rowling?
One writes about fantasy and the other just lves in it..!
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274# tobytrip
Nice and direct. I am still laughing.
Can you email to the great pretender at No.10. It may even bring a smile to his dour face.
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# 253
Sounds like you're not too keen on New Labour then Max, am I right?
Are you looking forward to your very own "Portillo moment" ??
Bet you are!
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Looks like NuLabour are on the slippy slide
again?.oh dear me and on the eve of conference.
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"Why is it the Tories are always the ones talking up failure and division? They always try to talk Britain into ruin just so they can "win" an election. Man, that's some kind of sicko talk. It's this sort of person that just disses the new diplomas just because they don't understand them or the benefit they create."
They will do anything including damage hildrens education to get their noses in the Government trough. We love Michael gove and his 'policy exchange' think tank in the North that suggested that people should abandon some northern cities and move south so they can save money on regeneration. On the Diplomas point He doesn't like the Acedemic ones : humanities, Science and languages. I dispute that science and languages are academic by the way they are quite practical. and also puts doubt over other practical diplomas. How sick and desperate for power are these people? Rubbishing these childrens education for political gain. Same goes for the A level and O levels getting easier arguement.
He is out to protect the precious 'A' levels. Why? Stuck in their ways, victorian values party with a superficial
Michael gove is also a founder member of 'Policy exchange' think tank who suggested northern towns should be abandoned to fund tax cuts. He is truly a devil child.
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jimbrant @268 wrote:
"I know that factual information is not much valued on here, but the 3-day week etc was on Ted Heath's watch. And he was a Conservative, in case you didn't know that."
Thank you for your correction. Ted Heath was indeed the Conservative leader. Whether he was a 'Conservative', however, is a moot point.
Roll_On_2010 @271,
Thanks for the interesting links. Upon review of the articles, I am forced to consider that the fault lay not only with the malign socialist 'ethic' of the unions and the Labour Party, but also in the appalling sartorial sins inflicted upon the nation by a generation of moustachioed, side-burned, brown- and beige flare-wearing muppets (and that's just the civil service!).
sagamix @276 asks:
"Are you looking forward to your very own "Portillo moment" ?? Bet you are!".
Just the one? I think that it's likely that half the cabinet will be wiped out.
I'm off for a walk in the beautiful English countryside today - in this Season of Mists and Mellow Fruitiness, so I'll leave the Brown-bashing to the delegates in Manchester.
(I'll not neglect him entirely, however, as each time I tread on a slimy slug upon my path I'll be sure to repeat my zen buddhist mantra inspired by Chuck: "Goodbye Gordon - please be reincarnated as something useful.").
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Snouts in the trough.
3 July 2008 Westmidden held a vote to keep their 24,000 pounds/annum additional cost allowances.
The House divided: Ayes 172, Noes 144. [5.20 pm Division No. 253]
172 voted to keep their greedy snouts in the trough!
146 of the 172, above, were NuLabour, in fact if I remember correctly, 33 were NuLabour Ministers.
Must be great to be afflicted with, at best Selective Memory, at worst Tunnel Vision.
In my opinion Actions speak louder than words.
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As an appendage to 280:
Were was Flush Gordon when all this happened.
Of course, as usual he was busy in his bunker, as it now appears working on his fag-packet Non-Vision.
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I'm in favour of more forward thinking investment in business and the regions, and a Shinkansen style rail network throughout Britain. This would create opportunity, level folks up, and help weld the country together. Your comment on Michael Gove just highlights how poor the Tory alternative is by comparison.
I've been strongly in favour of apprenticeships for a few years, and these diplomas are a step in that direction. They are useful and bring people into the cycle of success. Dissing the 'easy target' diplomas just undermines the whole thing without taking the heat. It's a typical Tory trick straight out of the Dummies Guide to Nudging.
In better news, The Independent has three great stories: Deborah Orr in favour of sound governance over the free market, Howard Jacobson lamenting how rich bankers have helped create cynicism and bad art, and Hamish McRae giving an uncannily familiar take on the nuances of global economics and creating a better outcome.
What an odd week. It turned out rather well.
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280 Roll-on
Just suggesting that the 'snoughts in the trough' phrase so widely used. Applies to the Conservative party. and in this case rubbishing childrens education to get into number 10. Suggested by real Tory Boy Michael Gove.
Your expenses thing. Well Labour MPs are mainly from the North and live a long way from their constituencies so will therefore need more expenses. to cover housing,furniture and travel. Its easy for the Conservatives to be self righteous about this as they mainly live within commuting distance. Interesting though they still get the expenses as well as the political benefit. Its almost as if they knew it would get through.
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Browns judgement is now more suspect than ever - describing JK Rawling following a substantial donation:-
"one of the world's greatest ever authors"
What is this cash for compliments?
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There's a labour HYS on, so it'll be a bit quiet today. The usual suspects will be to busy frantically typing a production line of stock messages and recommending with multiple memberships to be bothered with this.
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285# dhwilkinson
Wow and theres me thinking NuLabour were in Manchester. Surprising how good NL are at misinformation.
Wonder if they have a bouncer behind ever seat at this conference. Wouldn?t want these rabble pensioner members trying to upset the well oiled show, would we!
Maybe they will get an opportunity to use the much vaunted 24 days they have recently introduced!
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re: 283 dhwilkinson
Regarding expenses, remember that labour MPs voted disproportionately in favour of having no oversight compared to the tories.
It wasn't necessarily the amount of the expenses which is the issue, it's the fact that proportionally (when you take account of how many MPs there are of each party) many more labour MPs than tory MPs voted specifically against having oversight.
(good old libdems had a 100% record; all libdems who did vote voted against the no-oversight aspect).
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re: 238 dhwilkinson
"Have to disagree with you. 'apprenticeships are child Slavery?' "
Yes; they are slavery, and so are the immigration rules which Brown is imposing.
It's enforced work for no pay (and where no punishment is due) - if that's not slavery then what is?
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286 Roll_on...
Yes they are. and your point is? Are you trying to imply I'm a labour party member?
No I'm not. Sorry about that.
Suggesting that anyone who protests at a Labour party conference will get 24 or 42 days detention routinely without comeback from the media. I would call that misinformation. Looking at the mad comments on the HYS site and the Terrorist threat. I would suggest that security is wise. The event you refer to was a bad mistake I agree.
"Wow and there's me thinking NuLabour were in Manchester. Surprising how good NL are at misinformation."Your comment is ironically a very good piece of misinformation.
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Same old stuff on the site and elsewhere.
Getting into "who's to blame" time. And, where do we go now.
You can't blame Brown for present global economic and commodity situations.
But he shouldn't have taken reflected credit for an apparently benign - but deeply flawed - global economy awash with "pretend" money.
The boom in UK house prices had nothing to do with a global phenomenon. It was inspired because there are too few properties being built - and too much money being loaned under rediculously easy conditions.
Brown could have slowed that down. (After all, he did promise to prevent a housing price boom...)
He could have set the conditions under which UK institutions made loans available, to prevent money sloshing around. If the cash is there, prices can soar. If it's harder to come by, prices may rise, but much more slowly. Did he act, to support his own objective? No.
Home grown, Brown grown, disaster.
We all want our homes to be worth more than when we bought them. But the main value is primarily to have a home. If you flog it at a big profit, you still need somewhere to live.
Brown could have limited the casual re-mortgage against a theoretical asset value increase, for spend on holidays etc.
He chose to allow that bubble to develop.
How was that anything to do with "global circumstances"? Home grown, Brown grown, nonsense.
Brown could have legislated that credit card companies could not simply raise borrowing limits as soon as their customer hit their limits.
Did he? No. Home grown. Brown grown.
Brown allowed the BoE to set money rates, to achieve inflation targets. But limited a role in the oversight of financial institutions. He created the FSA. THEY knew that Northern Rock's business model was flawed, but did what exactly? Not a lot. That was a home grown problem - nothing to do with global economic circumstanes. If you borrow short, in order to commit money to a third party for a long term, you're just an idiot. The fact that you occupy a key role in a Labour heartland has nothing to do with it. They should have gone down.
There was discussion on Radio 4's Any Questions about who is to blame. A couple of panelists said we all are.
S. Woodward (Sec. of State) said that shareholders should hold the companies to account and the government has made that more possible. Just who does he think the shareholders are?
HBoS had some two million shareholders. But the vast majority of shares were held by financial institutions (on their own behalf or for pension funds).
Does Brown really believe one big finance company is going to castigate another big finance company about paying its board members and executive too much?
Come on.
Brown held the financial strings when S. Byers lied to parliament (is that too strong - should it be "inadvertently misled"?), when Network Rail was "nationalised" - Jack Straw's words. Then pumped billions into RailTrack. Either directly - or via government guarantees.
Brown was around when the same Byers intervened to allow MG-Rover to be bought by a bunch of financial strippers. (They left the hard assets behind.) I'm still trying to find any evidence about what I understood would be an enquiry into that deal.
Sorry. Brown was not an economist. He surrounded hismelf with people who said they were. All those "experts" didn't seem bothered when real-world finance companies invented ways to sell tainted product, or worry what UK companies were buying.
Why not?
In a boom, there should be more tax available. Brown needed to gather in more and more, whether from corporation or personal taxation, to spray about.
Don't forget that, at the end of the day, every form of tax is paid for by the individual tax-payer. (Corporations finally gain because some poor schmuck buys a product.)
CEH. Nobody would doubt that getting people to become apprentices is a good idea. Took a long time for Brown to get around to that. Far too busy failing to control spend elsewhere.
In case you wonder, I'm not too impressed by a previous Tory comment about unregulated mortgage access. Didn't like closing coal mines. (It's dirty, but it is an energy source. Never know when it may be necessary for survival.) Didn't like scrapping grammar schools, rather than injecting educational excellence into other areas. Felt that the privatisation of railways was a mess.
Just haven't seen much evidence that Brown ever got a grip over his tenure of the Chancellorship.
Don't see much evidence now.
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re: 289 dhwilkinson
Just because they'd get a rough ride in the media, that doesn't mean they won't do it.
When they passed the previous anti-terror legislation, labour supporters were saying the same thing as you are now, ie "don't worry; we wouldn't arrest anyone just for protesting, only when they're a terrorist threat", and then they went and did exactly that.
If the law's there, then they'll use/abuse it; that's not just a paranoid delusion; it's fact; they've got form.
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288 getridof...
Are Apprenticeships
Slavery?
They are an option, They get paid, Training is expensive and disruptive so it is not cheap labour and overall the idea of them being child slavery is ridiculous.
287 You say MORE labour Mps voted against scrutiny than conservatives. The Conservatives still don't have scrutiny so are having the political advantage while gaining the benefit still stands.
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re: 292 dhwilkinson
maybe there's a different name for the kind of "apprenticeships" that I'm talking about then;.
I'm talking about the situation where 14 year old schoolchildren are being forced to work in shops and factories for no pay (and yes that is happening everywhere; just ask parents of teenage kids). Does Brown call that "apprenticeships" or "training"? Not sure. Don't care. Whatever you want to call it would just be a euphemism for slavery.
Forcing children to work for no pay; that's child slavery.
..and where immigrants who are perfectly entitled to a visa and who already have a paid job lined up will be forced to do "compulsory voluntary" work.
Actually the reason not many tories voted either way in the expenses aspect was because they honestly didn't think that such a massive number of labour MPs would be politically stupid enough to vote against oversight, but they were wrong.
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Hi! Nick so you've broken the golden rule you have upset all the Tories and the [ I'm not a a tories] on here by even hinting that Labour might still be a potent power.
You should have realised by now that any suggestion that doesn't support the Tories means that your being manipulated by your socialist masters or are betraying the cause and its really not allowed, if you cant praise the Tories then your not allowed to write anything.
They could other wise, God willing desert your blogs, at least the more fanatical of them.
We socialists can accept criticism and agree that some of it is justified but the fanaticism that the Tories are showing on here is not only beyond belief but is bordering on being dangerous.
They have reached the point that they are close to bringing Maggie back, to be fair that might be a good thing then perhaps the Tories would come up with a few policies because at the moment they seem to be completely devoid of any.
Maggies policies generally were rubbish but at least she had some not like the Tory party of today,. Did someone shout what Tory party,and well they might, as we've seen very little of them since this recession began.If they were clever which their not they should have been having a hay day.
They are obviously afraid to show their faces , some one might ask them how they would deal with the present situation and they have no answers. George Osbourne the invisible man is terrified to show is face.
The more of these blogs I read from all the usual characters who fit the bill of "all mouth and no trousers" as my old Mum used to say, they know who they are.
The more I am seeing the protestations of the unsure,and a little panic, they think that if they say some thing enough times it will come true,but it wont, sorry lads but your triumpalism is quietly coming to an end, I can smell the fear starting to creep into your posts hence the attacks on Nick.
I am sorry for you guys you have wasted so much hate and absurd energy, and yet the party you support sits silently skulking in the corner not issuing one grain of hope David Davis led them into that corner they hope like him that it will put them on the path to resurrection but I am afraid that its a forlorn hope, they can see that the wind of change is about to turn in Labours favour and they haven't got a clue of what to do about it.
Yes we know the childish name calling will shortly be rekindled at the conservative conference just as it is on these blogs but I am afraid that only shows the insecurety that your experiencing and its really starting to show.[All spelling and grammatical mistakes are fully intended.]
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oh, they call it "Work experience" apparently (for year 10/11 pupils)
Well, where I live they're using it to get free/slave labour from all the local schoolkids by telling them to work in the local shops and factories; it simply shouldn't be allowed; Brown should at least let them get paid.
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ask yourself this; would you be willing to spend 2 weeks filling shelves in a supermarket, or stuffing envelopes with junk mail, and not get paid anything for it?
If the answer to that question is "no", then why should it be right to let children do it for free?
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292 DH Wilkinson my friend you are arguing with a closed mind. anyone and I repeat anyone who thinks that apprenticeships are slavery is going though a reality crisis and their problem should be left for one of the medical professions to help with.
If the above were true then you could say that every form of education is slavery with special emphasis on primary schools, they could be even considered worse than the child exploitation of the eighteen hundreds for at least they were rewarded with a few coppers for there trouble.
There are no apprentices that dont get paid.
290 fairly open minded said,
"Nobody would doubt that getting people to become apprentices is a good idea
Took a long time for Brown to get around to that. Far too busy failing to control spend elsewhere."
Under labour the amount of young people in apprenticeships increased from 50,000
under the Tories to 250.000 under labour and increasing daily
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294 wrote:
Yes we know the childish name calling will shortly be rekindled at the conservative conference just as it is on these blogs but I am afraid that only shows the insecurety that your experiencing and its really starting to show.
Since you are the master of childish name calling and have already had many of your posts deleted by The BBC moderators as a result perhaps you should join The Conservatives. You might feel more at home with them according to your definition of their approach.
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re: 297 grandantidote
"There are no apprentices that dont get paid."
True (apparently), "apprentices" do get paid; it's "Work Experience" which goes unpaid; that only relates to 14/15 year old children, so I guess that's ok then.
After all, I guess in the eyes of labour it's fine for children to do unpaid work, but not labour voters.
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289# dhwilkinson
David why on earth would I imply that you were NuLabour when in fact I know your leanings are towards the LibDems!
Did not see you cheering them on in the last blog, or could you not stomach the tax cuts?
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294 Grandantidote
Hey Pal,
Glad to say you are back in the fray!
See they are discussing appreticeships, whilst I've been out enjoying an Indian Summer's day. When I was a lad, very long ago, people sometimes even paid for the priviledge of learning a trade or profession. The training was tough, but thorough, and at the end of it one believed they had a craft which would last for their working life.
From what I can see, this modern day "work experience" is the ignorant being directed by the slightly older, but equally ignorant, in useless activities. If I was a youngster, no way would I waste my time. I'd either try and earn some money, by physical labour if necessary, or read and improve my knowledge, which rarely happens in the madhouses which pass as schools.
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When I first heard about the child slavery thing, I did originally think I'd missed something and got it wrong, because like the labour posters here I didn't think such a thing would be possible in this day and age, and I especially didn't think it would be something that was actually encouraged/enforced by the government. But after looking into it it seemed I was right.
I found out about it from my wife's friend when I overheard a conversation where she said her daughter was working in a local shop. I asked the mother how her daughter could work in the shop because I knew she was underage; the mother then explained the "scheme".
I then thought it was a good idea; experience gained and a bit of pocket money; great idea.
But then she said it was unpaid, and that all the local kids were doing the same thing. That was when alarm bells rang in my head.
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289# dhwilkinson
I have just read your latest blog on HYS and beggar me I agree with it word for word!
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Seems some confusion exists between what is an apprenticeship and what is work experience. An apprentice (if such a vacancy can be found) goes to work in a company where he/she receives training, and also receives a small wage. The training is given on the job, with sometimes extra learning in a classroom/workshop environment.
"Work experience" is a waste of time and space. Instead of being at school, the youngsters are sent off to waste their time in shops and offices, learning nothing, being paid nothing, and just fulfilling "targets".
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Hmmmm, I can remember when thatcher closed the mines......at that time and to date Britain needs coal to fire some of the power stations...anyway, at that time in the 1980's thatcher would import coal from third world economies..where child labour was common, kids as young as 10 worked 16 hour shifts down the mines....thatcher had no problem accepting that abuse......who can forget when Man..Utd.. were caught out for using young labour in India to produce their footballs...child labour indeed!
All eye's on GB, now! to deliver a fairer society...much to do..and much to get on with...................
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for: the closed mind that is getridofgordonnow
I think what you are bellyaching about is called 'work experience'. For many years 14/15 year olds have spent a week or two doing a job. They usually have to find themselves a job, keep a log and then they talk about their experiences back at school. Obviously there is more to it than that. It has long been considered an important part of preparing pupils for the world of work. Many pupils find it really valuable. It is unpaid, though some employers do make ex gratia payments.
No cheap reposte please!
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300 roll_on..
Lets not go there again. I remember you. Not sure about the lib dems at the moment so I didn't comment.Also I seem to have been painted into a red flag waver corner by the previous nuisance before your return Power_to_the_ppl. I'm here for myself not for any party. My views are left of centre. So I will argue for either Labour or Lib dem(if they are still centre) as long as they are reasonable. over the top comments about dictatorships slavery police state etc. do not help that persons cause. Glad you agreed with me about capitalism. Dont use HYS much anymore. So your skills will be of little use. It was an interesting subject this time though. In fact I don't use this much either.
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302 getrid...
Its called work experience. Its a good thing. The company actually gets little or no benefit from these inexperienced children. You cannot compare this to child labour. Work experience has been around for years before 1997.
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I don't know anything about JK Rowling or Harry Potter but on monday I'm going to the local book shop to buy the full set!
Next week, book me onto Mastermind for my specialist questions on
Harry and Hogwarts.
Labour's newest heroine, JK Rowling reckons that Gordon has done more for underpriveliged children than any other Political Leader or Party Politician, ever.
JK Rowling is wrong.
The Tory estabishment, during the whole of the 20th Century, did more for rich people's children than any Conservative leader, ever.
It wasn't done by magic, it was simply done by redistributing wealth from the poor to the rich.
This is why Dave and Gideon (working class name-George) will never see No 10.
I don't think there is any better feeling in life than seeing a Tory crushed by the truth.
Thank you, JK.
ps I love you, worship you and adore you.
Gary
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298 miss Waldorf under normal circumstances I do not resort to name
calling certainly not of politicians but yes to the occasional post.
I am afraid that I did get rather annoyed recently when some clever gentleman on here losing his argument with me resorted to commenting on the quality of my typing and yes I did challenge him as I had done some months ago your boyfriend Warldorf but I must say that your fellow was more respective of my argument than this other rather odious person.
My names were certainly not childish and were not removed by the moderaters. They were removed by the moderaters after being referred to them by this same cowardly person, there were I believe six in a row that were removed and if you wish to look at my posts you will find that it was not for name calling,
If you were half the person that you were before you went on holiday you would have defended my right to free speech as I would have expected from one or two others on here, who are always proclaiming that the moderaters should not intervene and allow free speech. Instead of trying to score political points about something that you have obviously not taken the trouble to check, being as you are a lady who I once quite respected for her honesty I wont insult you any further, but check before you write. By the way how is the old chap hope he's keeping well.
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#309 It's not news that Rowling and Mrs Brown have been the best of friends for years, or that JKR is throwing loadsamoney at children's charities (including one that is also supported by Mrs Brown)
She won't even notice giving her nice friends £1m to help them out in "these difficult times". I'm sure it's a complete coincidence that it's been announced just before the party Conference.
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Rest easy folks:
Brown will do what ever it takes to sort out the economy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7626580.stm
Only watch the video on an empty stomach.
No actual sign of any action yet though, but a very tough sounding promise.
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227. MaxSceptic
Thanks for the links.
How brazen is he. Brown knows its over and doesnt give a toss now.
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So the best party leader in the world - probably - gets a quick million from the best writer in the world - probably. Let's hear it for Carlsberg.
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Treasury borrowing last month rose to the highest for any August in 15 years
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article4783195.ece
Spend, spend, spend...
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I'm glad the more thoughtful folks have teased out the difference between work experience and apprenticeships, and the different qualities and benefits of each. It's orthogonal but targets and micro-management also have their place at an individual and corporate level if used appropriately. An understanding of this can be found in Daoism, Zen, and strategy. Some would call this Total War.
In the decades of asset stripping and consumerism where the dumbed down individual was king, the old model of student, expert, and master evaporated, but as the siutation is changing I see some scope for that taking off again. If the long-term, opportunity, and gold standards are mirrored to Labour, Tory, and Liberal values there is great potential for a positive consensus to build.
It's the easiest thing in the world to understand but incredibly hard to explain, but the idea that the mind is root of all things, and one can be everywhere and nowhere, master and student, accomplished and empty all at the same time is a key aspect of Zen. It's really nothing remarkable. Quite ordinary, actually. Yet, in its very ordinary nature it's quite remarkable.
There, doesn't everyone feel special. ;-)
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Ian Hislop absolutely destroyed Harriet Harman on The BBC news special Question time. Did you see it? I've not seen a Minister flounder so much in recent times.
Grandy. The BBC moderators don't delete posts for no reason. There has to be a valid reason. What is your take on having so many of your messages being deleted if it wasn't down to abuse or unpleasant language?
The loathsome Hazel Blears has had a pop at The Democratic Vice Presidential candidate Palin. She labels her horrendous. Now this to me scales the heights of hypocrisy. Anyone else agree?
JK Rowling donates 1 million to The Labour Party because she claims that they best look after the poor and downtrodden. This is the best joke I've heard this year. Absolutely priceless! She would have achieved her aim more successfully by donating directly to an appropriate charity.
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Brown slides even further down opinion polls on eve of party conference
More than two thirds (68%) agreed that Duff Gordon had been given a chance but 'blown it' and almost as many (64%) judged that he 'seems to have no real understanding of what ordinary people are going through at the moment'.
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Labour rebellion spreads as Brown pleads for unity
Oh dear trouble at mill,
Gordon has a bad hair day?or is it year.
One blogger some months ago said - With Brown its difficult to tell when one bad week ends and the next bad one begins.
It would be fair to say now - With Brown its difficult to tell when one bad year ends and the next bad one begins.
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60% of NuLabour party members believe their party cannot win an election under Brown.
View the YouGov Poll here
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Last night Sir Alan Sugar joined in the attack on anti-Brown plotters.
The Labour-supporting millionaire attacked those who behaved like ?rats? leaving a sinking ship.
He added ?And dare I say to those that are not happy, ?Get Out. Have the balls to get out?.
In 1979 the Labour membership stood at around 250,000. Today I guess its significantly less, but I will be generous and say it stands at 200,000. So if 60% have the balls to leave that will leave a membership of 80,000.
Correct me if am wrong, but didn't NuLabour have a recruitment drive not many months ago and even asked current members to chip in extra for a cash strapped party.
You couldn't even make this up if you tried.
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242# derekbarker
Derek after our earlier exchanges regarding Glasgow East and the upcoming by-by-election at Glenrothes I felt a bit mean so I thought I would refer you to this article to cheer you up. And believe it or not it is not from the Daily Mail.
Only a magical turn of events can save Brown now
I do not know which section will cheer you up; the wee bit at the end certainly cheered me up!
Everyone in the Cabinet must surely realise that the game is up for Labour under Gordon, unless there is some magical transformation in the prime minister's personality. Perhaps they are all hoping Harry Potter will cry "salvio hexia" and awaken the "true Gordon" who will leap on his Nimbus 2000 to take on the Slytherin Tories at one final game of quidditch. It's about their only hope.
I also enjoyed the first blog that followed the article, maybe you will?
My conclusion is - Looks like it would have been more beneficial had JK bequeathed Harry Potter to NuLabour rather than the 1 million.
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Brown reveals free childcare plan
My first thought was, were are they going to get the money, GB PLC is brassic. Then I read further?
Ha?
Aides were stressing that the extra childcare places were an aspiration rather than a firm policy commitment.
Ah well another 4 days left.
Can anybody out there please tell me what 4 x 0 = ?
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Cruddas in 45% top rate tax call.
Oh dear has nobody told this numpty that NuLabour are into doubling the tax on our lowest paid workers. That is until they get caught out by the electorate!
Did nobody tell you about the recent 10p tax hoist for our lowest paid Jon.
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317:
Sorry. That should read "The Republican Vice Presidential candidate" of course.
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324. Roll_On_2010
Well they have to get the funds from some where, given that they wont cut spending.
Revenue is down, growth and wealth creation is down, public spending is up and debt is climbing.
It?s a no brainer taxation is going to have to increase massively.
Welcome to the real legacy of Nu Labour and Browns fiscal policy.
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326# CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
Funny you should mention that, here is an article about how taxes will soar in credit crisis.
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MORNING GORDON!!!
I just watched you on the Andrew Marr show. Seems like you pay some attention to the blogs.....
Well - how do we sum up......
Andrew pointed out that nobody, neither the public or your party, or your ministers are listening to you.
You were invited to 'fess up' to mistakes, which you said something similar to that song - regrets....'I've made a few'.
Watching the interview I realised that you aren't able to come up with the much requested analysis and apology because you genuinely aren't aware.......
Mr Brown - the level of apology you are seeking will need to somehow communicate that you are aware that there has been a catastrophic 11 year failure by government to deliver either value for money or positive change in peoples lives.
P.S. You have no plan or vision for the future either.
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The same worn out diatribes on the Andrew Marr programme this morning:
"It's down to personality politics and the world credit crisis which we are dealing with better than anyone else."
Have I made mistake(s)? Of course I have. We (the royal we notice) failed to take account of the lower paid and pensioners with the 10p tax decision. (No mention of any other mistakes at all).
The public will not forgive us if we engage in 'in fighting' at a time when the economy is in such a delicate state. (This could be exorcised at a stroke by calling a General Election).
I don't accept that we are unpopular and have made wrong decisions.(doh!).
The by election results mean nothing. It's merely a chance for The Electorate to express their concerns. When they come to make real decisions at a General Election they will see The Opposition's policies for what they are. (So why not call one and test out your hypothesis?)
We have much to be proud of in the last 10 years. (No mention of any mistakes there once more).
Q: Andrew Marr. Peoples' perceptions are that you never say sorry for mistakes you have made.
A:: I've already said that the 10p tax decision was an error and we reversed it. (Once again no mention of any other mistakes).
In short the P.M. appears to be in total denial about his and his Party's standing in the Country. In the Press this morning it is predicted that 4 ministers will resign after the conference. I wonder what his reaction will be if this actually happens?
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Looks like we have to take down Cruddas as well................
His solution for the world is........... wait for it................... drum roll..........................
"Tax the 'well off' more"
Nice one John. Innovative. Finger on the pulse politics.
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I've just seen Gordon Brown on the Andrew Marr show, at last I have heard a lot of sensible answers ! Although I am not a Labour supporter, that man knows what he is talking about. For years I have been saying what he is saying about the financial sector, but nobody ever listens, well now I hope they will and support Gordon in putting things right, (globally).
We don't have anyone else with as much experience and know how as GB, the opposition, in comparison are muppets, forget the carisma etc. what we need are brains and nerve, which is what GB has !!
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329# misswaldorf
My guess is he will surf through this conference and come out the other end after offering nothing but empty rhetoric, as demonstrated by the new childcare places I mentioned in my blog at 323. After all GB PLC is brassic. I could be wrong - I hope.
The line that appears to have been drawn in the sand is the Glenrothes by-by-election.
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317 Miswaldorf
Reference your comments on the moderators......
See my comment at 221 which is still awaiting moderation....... it as not been posted because it is 'still awaiting moderation'.
In that post I was discussing that Alistair Campbell is back and faking government success stories.......
And a previous posting on a similar theme (Alistair 'dodgy dossier' Campbell back and faking) just 'vanished' when I press 'Post Comment'.
I don't believe it, but I would love there to be some sort of Alistair Campbell / BBC / blog conspiracy theory.......... it would divert us from the dismal government record and Brown's imminent defeat for a while.
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330:
Crudass is merely responding to a poll of Labour Party supporters which identified this as one of the measures Brown could use to reignite their support. Others included the imposition of windfall taxes and a top rate of tax of 50% etc. Watch them all being trotted out in succession in response to this poll.
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330# jonathan_cook
Jonathan Cruddas MP for Dagenham with a majority of 24.66%. A 12.5% swing to the Tories will do just that!
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Pity the poor moderator having to read all this guff day after day after day about Brown. No wonder there are gaps in the moderation, probably in the loo feeling queasy.
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It is just about possible that GB's (so far) competent and confident handling of the financial crisis might be his "Falklands moment" and that he could claw his way back to respectability in the polls. I hope so. Decent man unfairly and unjustly criticised too much in recent times.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
338# Deep_Thrapple
I have just read the article in the Washington times you mentioned in your BT blog at 28#.
I wonder if Wee Eck popped in to thank Teflon Tony, at Yale University, for the wonderful opportunity he set up for the SNP.
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327. Roll_On_2010
So borrowing predicted to hit to 100 billion by 2011.
Time to buy Euros folks, cos the pounds going through the floor.
A pound should be worth a euro by the middle of next year.
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re: 331 dunisahib
Maybe you've been saying for years that the city needs cleaning up (lots of people have) but you're forgetting that Brown is the one who's been in charge of the country's money/financial-systems for the last 11 years and he was constantly advised about this problem over many years and he totally failed to do anything about it until it was too late.
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"cleaning up the city" is actually a very simple thing to do, and should have been done years ago. Some parts of the city did undergo a "cleaning up" exercise when the tories were in power (mostly the insurance industry), but when labour got in they lost control.
The basic idea is a simple one:
When it comes to banks, pensions, insurance etc, they need to report on their risks and loss/asset ratios, and if they can't give a reasonable report of their risks/ratios (eg because the investments are too complex) then that particular risk/ratio is assumed to be a write-off/loss. Then, if your risk/ratio is beyond a certain level you're stopped from trading until you sort it out.
That's basically what they did to the insurance industry back in the early 90's (as well as stopping circular insurance), and that's what labour have completely ignored, and that's why the uk is the second most badly effected country in the world regarding the credit crunch (after the usa which made exactly the same mistake as Brown did).
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317 Miss waldorf I'm sorry that you have still not read the posts that were moderated.
Let me explain I probably could have your post removed this morning for your remark" the loathsome hazel blears" if I referred it but you would then be given a chance to rewrite your post leaving out the offensive remark. now this of course is not going to happen, but it is as simple as that.
To get back to my glut of moderations it happened this way.
After this person used my apparently bad typing to try to win an argument that he had obviously lost I of course was extremely angry.
I then wrote a post challenging him to tell me of the wonderful archievments that he had gained in his life other than what he considered were his great typing spelling and grammar.
Then I related what I had archieved in my life with my according to him poor typing spelling and grammer, I must admit to the reference to some small amphibians.
Rather than attempt to answer this challenge this brave gentleman had my post removed .
When asked by the moderaters to remove the offensive words I obliged and reposted
within a half an hour it was removed again now using the off blog excuse nothing to do with name calling.
There after he used the same tactics with every post I made making I believe five in a row which unfortunately the moderaters fell for, which he then boasted about it using the nothing to do with me mate excuse.
You say that moderaters dont remove your posts for nothing well you hav'nt been paying attention if you had you would have seen many posts asking why were their posts removed.
I hope that goes some way into clearing up the name calling business.
Incidentally I think if I remember rightly it was my old mate Waldorf who once called me I think the term was "a miserable little worm" I didn't dream of having him modererated and to be fair to him he apoligised to me later.
Your remarks regarding Ian Hislop and Harriot Harman. she was sitting alongside one of the greatest comic critics,a Tory through and through a man who has for many many years earnt his living as a critic cynic and a comedian hardly fair competition for any MP I would have thought, its very simple to make on the spot glib remarks for him as he does, thats his job.
He was in fact made to look quite embarressed by the other guy on the panel Nick something, he struck me as being very shrewd.
Of course Ian made a rather stupid gaff while attempting to answer a question, most politicians would not have been able to extricate themselves from that situation so easily but he did by turning it into a joke and I repeat thats what he has spent his whole life doing.
Despite that I find Ian Hislop a very funny and excellent entertainer although I disagree with his politics.
I do observe that you fail to mention Alan Duncan's poor performance, even when confronted by the truth he refused to accept it.
Do tell us how Waldorf is, I know that he has had a very bad year or two ,I hope he's OK and feeling a little better after his holiday hope to see him back on blog soon even if we are on different sides.
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267. Charles_E_Hardwidge
So? I'm English and I'm not bitching about it. The way I see it is by cutting a deal Scotland and England can start focusing more on succeeding like, say, creating more industry and community banking. That's a win-win but you've got to ditch the short-term and narrow mind to see it.
So:
Blatant favouritism towards the people of one part of the country at the direct expense of those from another is supposed to create unity is it?
Charles your logic is, as usual totally floored.
You?re a Nu Labour man to the core.
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329 Miss Waldorf Re the following,
The by election results mean nothing. It's merely a chance for The Electorate to express their concerns. When they come to make real decisions at a General Election they will see The Opposition's policies for what they are. (So why not call one and test out your hypothesis?)
Now if they were to do that in the middle of a world and this countries greatest recession for many years.
Then you would have every right to call them all the names that you and others do. not the stupid childish names so favoured by the conservatives but genuine critical names, thought out by intelligent people.
Dont you think
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317 Miss waldorf I seem to be having a go at you this morning, nothing personal I assure you.
JK Rowling donates 1 million to The Labour Party because she claims that they best look after the poor and downtrodden. This is the best joke I've heard this year. Absolutely priceless! She would have achieved her aim more successfully by donating directly to an appropriate charity.
I guess that you think Lord AsHcroft could do the same do you? Or is that entirely different?
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Yes New Labour has problems, yes they have made mistakes, and yes they will make mistakes in the future, and yes they may not win the next election. and if that's the case my dispair knows no bounds.
I only too well remmember the last tory fiasco millions unemployed the poll tax, the big bang and deregulation (the cause to a large extent of our current difficulties) but the reason for still supporting Labour is it's theoretical direction (not always achieved I admit ) but I would rather have a government that is trying to go in the right direction than one that so historicaly destined to go in the opposit direction looking after the rich and powerful,Cameron talks the talk but he will definitely not walk the walk
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268. jimbrant
Jim
Just to complete the facts for your post about the 3 day week:
Introduced by a conservative government due to power shortages caused by striking minors, angry at wage caps imposed because of a chaotic economy, high inflation, huge debt and ridiculous levels of public expenditure.
Of course the other option would have been to borrow even more money, watch inflation rocket even further and watch the pound go down the toilet.
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299 getridofgordonow
I have rather a large family and
obviously a number of grandchildren, all of them went on work experience, some of them before 1997.
I have never heard one word of complaint from any of them, one or two thought it was a hoot and a couple of weeks off school two more were offered aprenticeships after leaving school and accepted the offers.
After having a taste of the real world and what it meant to them the rest of them went back to school with increased vigour so that they wouldn't end up doing that type of work and they succeeded.
So I think from my personal experience its a wake up call for these kids and the employers give them this opportunity and that should be reward enough.
With regard to you last remark it doesn't really warrant an answer but I will give you one, how much work do you honestly believe these kids actually do,they can scive off anytime they like or go missing for an hour and they can walk out anytime they wish.
Its been my experience that when you actually employ a young person its usually several weeks before they settle down to doing some work, there is also the old adage. One boy good boy, two boy's half a boy, three boy's no boy. this of course applies to girls.
Apart from that, this government has done more for childrens welfare than any government in history.
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Pity Labour did not clean more of what the Tories left behind, with their deregulation to accommodate the filthy rich.
When we have over 12% inflation, over 14% interest rates, and over 3.6 million unemployed, I will start thinking of changing back to the Tories, whoever their leader might be.
So far, and with all the GLOBAL financial turmoil, we are not back to those miserable years as yet.
If the financial turmoil is Brown's demise, then if this situation starts to change for the better, it is thanks to Gordon Brown and not boy Dave who managed to empty the BOE in 1992, with his pretentious decisions as if he was some kind of a financial wizard to the Chancellor Norman Lamont.
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The Halifax and lloyds joining is another big mistake i did always vote labour but what is that man thinking of this will just make the future more difficult for first time buyers, and for people looking for a mortage, not alone all the people going out of work,this was another one of browns madest moments it will be more fatal than the 10ptax mistake, it is all down hill from hear. he should be thinking of helping the unemployed return to work and be able to afford to pay their bills, not cutting jobs and the move will be more people paying high bank charges as you do with lloyds, as when they had an account just with the halifax bank charges are not as bad. What will be his next big mistake.
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Charles_E_Hardwige #267
Perhaps if you lived in Yorkshire, here in the real England, as I do, and saw steelworkers in Sheffield being sold down the river by Swedes, and bank workers in Halifax being sold down the river by Scots, you would understand the gross injustice of what is being perpetrated.
The difference between the two is that we have Scots, looking after Scotland, actually running England from Westminster. This is the natural result of the half-completed (and from England's point of view, completely undemocratic) constitutional set up created by Blair/Brown 10 years ago. The English shoud expect tis and not be surprised by it.
Either we abolish Scottish devolution and return to a true UK Parliament (clearly untenable), or we create a federal UK (in which the likes of Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling, standing as they do for Scottish constituencies) have to work with their English equivalents in matters such as the Lloyds/TSB merger, or (as I would prefer) we become completely independent of one another, within the EU.
Obviously you don't want to 'bitch' about it, but then it probably doesn't affect your job, your income, your mortgage payments, your ability to pay for your home and feed your family. It guess it is not your future being sacrificed to suit the people of another nation. How do you think the people affected feel about being sacrificed by Gordon and Alistair simply because they are from the 'wrong' country?
Carrotsneeda QUANGO2 #344
The issue is that whilst many English still think of the 'UK' is one country, the Scots consider England and Scotland to be two separate countries. Try reading 'Blether with Brian' blogs...
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After all I've said about Hazel Blears she suddenly has the balls to come out and openly criticise Gordon Brown. And there was I thinking that she was the perfect lapdog. Wonders will never cease. What do you thing her agenda is Grandy? Was she spurned by the P.M? Has she got wind of the fact that she might be replaced in the next cabinet reshuffle? Beats me.
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352. SuperJulianR
Im happy with either or, not really interested in Scottish issues so dont read Brian much.
Happy for Scotland to be part of the UK or separate, doesnt register wont make a difference to me either way.
Just dont see how you can claim you are the party of unity when you take tax from the English to pay for perks for the Scotts in order to buy votes. Its divisive and factious.
OH and CEH doesnt actually answer anything here, he just twitters his special brand of zenbull at you.
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This "party of the Left" has been in charge for 11 years, with Brown in charge of the economy first as Chancellor and now as PM. Suddenly it's going to "clean up the city"??? This is a cynical ploy, intended to woo an electorate it clearly regards as stupid.
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353 Miss Waldorf, I really dont know the answer. she has had a lot of bad press which I feel is unfounded. Even you were giving her some stick a day or two ago.
I can only repeat the old cliche "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" and what ever anyone might say about her ,she's a gutsy little woman who fights her corner in a predominantly mans world.
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Cry me a river. If you knew what crap I've had to deal with you wouldn't be so quick to shove that whine down my neck. Let's just say, I think, I'm dealing with issues better than some folks who may have just stubbed their toe, relatively speaking. Not saying your issues aren't important to you but you may find being grateful for what you have got less stressful than throwing a snit. Folks really need to calm down and get some perspective.
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