Fuel help thinking
Hopes that ministers might be about to give consumers one-off payments to help with their fuel bills are at an end.
The government had planned to unveil a a package of help for consumers faced by soaring gas and electricity bills this week but they are still locked in difficult negotiations with energy companies.
Whitehall sources are making it clear, however, that the focus of the talks is now not on cash help but, instead, on extending energy efficiency measures and the offer of lower tariffs to poorer people.
Expectations that ministers were hoping to unveil a significant package of help with fuel bills including payments of between £50 and £100 a head followed reports of a conversation involving the most senior civil servant at the Business Department which is leading negotiations with the energy companies.
BERR's Permanent Secretary Sir Brian Bender was overheard by other passengers on a train discussing a plan to help "ordinary people" by creating "a fuel rebate for everybody on child benefit".
At the time Number 10 confirmed that discussions were ongoing but said that no decisions had been reached.
Last week the Business Secretary John Hutton declared that "the era of cheap energy is over".
He and other ministers are likely to defend their plan to promote energy efficiency by arguing that it will help reduce bills not just this year but in years to come. One source claimed that consumers would be "better off" than they would have been if they'd been given cash help.
However, those Labour MPs and activists who have argued for a windfall tax on the energy companies are likely to regard this outcome as a significant disappointment.
Tonight the Prime Minister is delivering an important and interesting speech to the Scottish CBI in Glasgow. He will promise not to let down families who are struggling and express his confidence that Britain can make it through challenging economic times.
The question after Charles Clarke's invitation to the PM to buck up or step down will be - is it enough?
I'm 
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The government is bankrupt, the country is bankrupt. There is no money left to pay for anything.
The tax changes for the abolition of the 10p rate come into effect this month, a change which was not planned, but was forced on the government in an effort to bribe the electorate in a bye-election which they lost, and lost miserably.
I feel sorry for Alastair Darling, he seems to be having to sort out the awful mess the Prime Minister, who stills thinks and acts as a chancellor, keeps putting his nose in the trough.
Could that not be one of the problems with Gordon, he wants to take all and any praise going but will never accept his collosal mistakes. I have to ask the question, is Gordon nearing breaking point?
He must know that he is finished. He is PM not President and he also is beginning to realise that he will have to deal with a new Republican President rather than Obama.
This government is at the end of its days. Please put us out of our misery. Whatever has happened to the Education Maintenance Allowance Payments.
Some of us have not forgotten about the problems when Parliament comes back, of 42 days detention, also they still have not properly resolved the questions over abortion. These issues cannot be ignored for much longer.
Keep bringing the news Nick, Gordon is in his bunker, and he just won't admit it. Labour will implode at the general election when it comes, annihilation in Scotland is ineitable.
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This is the right decision. We need to get it into our heads that the cost of energy will now rise inexorably as demand from developing nations surges, supplies dwindle, energy states steer precious fuel resources towards their own citizens and, ultimately, we start to fight each other for control of these resources. Cash handouts are little more than gesture politics when the serious issue is how do we prepare our nation to live sustainably without oil and gas? The sooner we figure this one out and take steps towards a totally new (18th Century?) way of life, the better. Yes, the era of cheap energy is indeed over. Read the Olduvai Theory (http://tinyurl.com/acvg8) to see what we're really up against.
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pathetic.
there is not even any sign that the government are in control of either events or the country.
of course - labour failure to invest in new power plant or to regulate the utility markets over the years are the root cause of this specific issue - but lets be frank. the government are out of their depth and can't manage there way out of a paper bag.
as for tacklingcharles clarke - I would be surprised - gordon prefers to duck reality and real challenges. he exists in a theoretical and ideological world.
neither gordon or labour can handle reality or the delivery of results.
..... pseudo results (non specific or measurable charles-e-h) they can do...... i.e. the elimination of poverty or more choice in education.
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It is not oil and gas you need to worry about #2. It's the water, all over the world. You can live without oil and gas, you cannot live without water, and that is the unmentioned real problem.
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I presume any 'help' for 'families' will be at the expense of childless single people as per usual?
Funny how easy it is to find 2.7 billion for a by-election bribe, yet how extraordinarily difficult it is to find funds to ensure citizens don't freeze to death. That's Labour.
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Gordon Brown is so hard he can smash atoms between his bum cheeks and turn them into free energy.
Problem solved.
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I'm not an engineer, nor a scientist, but what I see as I go around town makes me realise how little effort is going into conserving fuel. Shops and shopping malls are heated to a level which makes moving around an effort. Then, to combat the extreme heat, many shops have fans running to try and make life a little more comfortable. The Superdrug chain are one of the biggest culprits, and I feel sorry for their poor staff members sweating away. Waterstones and WH Smiths the booksellers are others who seem to overheat their premises and then try to cool them down simultaneously with fans. A complete, expensive failure. Travelling by bus it is amazing that drivers cannot turn off the heating, and sitting on the inside seat on the side where the driver is seated is a miserable experience. Once the winter commences, many households are overheated, then the residents complain when receiving high bills. A little exercise, or if this isn't possible, an extra sweater would enable the thermostats to be reduced to a more economical, and dare I say it, healthier level.
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5# pttp
"childless single people"
Do you need to declare an interest there?
If any sort of help was given you'd call that a "bribe" anyway.
Remember the winter fuel payment levels of 1997? Remind us,was it £10?
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#7
Try coming to Exeter. They have built a new shopping Mall which is open to the elements. So what do the shops do, keep their doors open so that the hot air they produce goes right out into the street. Can't have customers having to push a door open, they may hurt their back!
This from a green City.
As for trees, the Cathedral Green had some beautiful trees, what do they do chop them down because of health and safety, a branch fell off last year, so the trees must go.
They build over a hundred flats, can they sell them, no, they were sold off plan but now nobody wants to complete, can't wait for the court cases. Same with new estates, all the sales offices closed, builders laid off.
The council doesn't want a unitary Devon so they are wasting hundreds of thousands of pounds on a campaign, 'Don't be a Loser' our local MP is labour. How pathetic the politicians have become.
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ceh @ 6
that was actually very funny.....
....but you still owe us the definition of the positive signs that you have been tracking concerning a labour recovery.
.... don't tell me..... the good news is that gordon and his cheeks are personally hooked up to the new particle accelerator at cern..... and soon gordons rear end will be powering the world for free.
....at last an end of 'energy based wars'. to think all this time I had just thought gordon was a no hoper without a plan!
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Labour give my tax money back to me, so i can give it to a foreign owned utility company, that are bleeding this country dry to subsidise their domestic markets, thanks to an earlier Tory privatisation of said utilities. When does the music stop? Then again if the only way for lazy westerners to think about conserving their energy resources is to make it a pain in their pocket, who's to complain?
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re: 7
Yeah, I went into Waterstones the other day, the heating was on full blast and the windows were all fogged up! Thought I'd walked into a hothouse!
re: 8
To quote Aristotle by way of Rand, A is A.
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What our utterly mendacious government is keeping quiet about, is that the one-off fuel payment wheeze was actually squashed by the EU. Just in case the EU becomes even less popular.
May I propose the introduction of an annual Patricia Hewitt Award for Outstanding Denial of the Truth?
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The country is not 'bankrupt'. ID cards and the wars cost £30billion. It is a matter of priorities. This will be compounded when Millibrowneron unquestioningly support a President McCain inspired attack on Iran or even Russia.
Scotland will vote SNP to avoid a Tory government in London and to engender some socialism that works rather than the weak knees of the English who when there are problems move even further to the right.
To me, the energy decision appears to be New Labour of old, compromising with big business so they can voluntarily do the odd bit of energy saving here and there for the poor who can't afford their fuel bills anyway. The mass of people will just face higher and higher bills and the energy companies (who put Shareholders first, Directors second and the customer a poor third) will want to recover the cost of this 'investment'.
As Labour are facing landslide defeat and possibly 20 years out of power, they should do some things to reduce the scale of the defeat and get their core vote out, enthused. Some decisive action on windfall taxes, ID cards, the wars etc could even actually work and galvanise more positive opinion in this country.
For Brown read Callaghan. For Cameron read Thatcher. By this I mean if people thought Callaghan was bad the country was crippled by Thatcher by 1981. This time of course, permanent and higher energy and food prices and a President in the US ready to shoot and ask questions later will be a heady cocktail for political and economic unrest which - ionically - will have us looking at the Blair years as many view the 60s now with nostalga.
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re: 10
The hot air produced by Hogwash should be enough to warm our pensioners until Brown's bottom can be hooked up to CERN.
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Bear in mind folks that financial help for domestic fuel for those who need it most, older people is, as a matter of fact rather than opinion, lets say 5 times higher in real terms over 10 times higher than it was in 1997.
Just a fact to ponder when slagging off everything this government has done
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Just listened to GB's speech, Not a lot to offer but a bit of cold comfort.
I was hoping for, the short term, some sort of help.
The weather is not good now and it can only get colder.
Gorden Brown is obsessed in green energy to meet his EU goals, any money seems to be bypassing the here and now to achieve his pet goal of EU approval.
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6 CEH
Been looking at your past postings and without doubt you have moved in your outlook.
Perhaps when you are PM for the Karma Party you could employ Brown to manage your energy policy not just cracking the atom but blowing on the the wind farms bound to increase the output.
But to be serious the total energy costs form whatever source are with us whether we like it or not. Windfall tax is not the answer in the short or long term, as individuals we have to cut our cloth accordingly and have to give up thingsperhaps we could do without.
The list is considerable but for example,
Sky, Fags, Booze, etc etc. take up cycling, try taking holidays in the UK, dig up the lawn and plant spuds. Yes we now are in a new world, and new labour will just sit on the side lines...why the cupboard is bare.
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re: 16
That must be why they're doing such a wonderful job.
The pinkos are all out tonight
Insisting that Labour is right
To con us and fleece us
And endlessly police us,
I'd laugh if it wasn't so trite!
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#19
Gosh, I wish I was clever enough to think up those brilliant little ditties!
Keep it up and when 'Dave' and his gruesome shower are back in power, I expect you to deliver some biting lines to match their crimes.
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@14
I found myself agreeing with you at fisrt. but by the end of your comments..... nope disagree I am afraid.
thatcher 81 - things were bad cos she forced the country to take its medicine. she broke the strike prone work shy culture in the country and forced us (the majority - not all) to work hard and to compete with foreign countries.
blair - nostalgia - the 60's.... you are having a laugh surely!? the country got economically fit in the 80's and 90's. blair has ridden a wave of economic success created by his predecessors.
.....gordon brown (although jointly responsible) is now riding blairs economic inheritance.
get real......
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If the issue was the provision of heating and cooking in our homes, well I'm sorry folks but labour and the Tories missed the boat on this question twenty years ago.
Sizewell B should have been the first of many in the last generation of nuclear power stations built to provide 30-40% of our energy to 2040.
With the awakening to global warming, we would now, NOW, have time to develop green energy sources (why isn't it mandatory that every new house built today and for the last 6/7years has solar cells covering 50% of its roof area?) clean coal -if such a thing exsists though we do have 300years of the stuff! is a technology we should be worldleaders at... selling to the Chinese!
Instead the Tories followed by Labour chickened out of the hard decisions they where elected to take.
I dispair at the fact that the term 'public servant' seems to be consigned to History, as far as this Labour government is concerned.
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16 eaton trifle / eaton mess
..... the least surprising insight of the last 20 years is that people live longer and the number of people alive at retirement age is increasing rapidly.
therefore thank god that labour had the foresight to:
1 - avoid building new power plants at a time when many power plants need to be decomissioned. "power should cost a lot - die of cold oldies."
2 - tax pensions - force pension funds into the red. "keep working oldies - we want to tax you until you expire"
3 -nhs - but don't live too long oldies cos hip replacements are expensive. why not visit one of our hospitals at the end of your "tax life" and sample the mrsa or cdif?
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Brown must be an idiot! Did he really think the Energy companies were going to fork over £billions to rescue his Government? They earned that money; oil and gas doesnt just appear at a power station ready for use, it takes £trillions in investment and thousands of employees slaving away. If we want a low carbon future then it is going to cost money and taking money from companies today will only stop them from investing it tomorrow. If the socialists don't like that then maybe they could strike and turn off all their lights; give us all a break.
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It is odd that nobody will take the other side of the bet that says that fuel suppliers will quickly lower prices as the price falls as they quickly raised prices when the price rose!
Toothless, and spineless Regulators!
To those who blame the present Government for all of our energy problems - remember "Sid" the man that Mrs Thatcher wanted you to tell when the utilities were privatised - to fiddle the national accounts. Once privatised and the golden shares were sold off it is absolutely inevitable that these monopolies will overcharge as there is no mechanism to stop them. (That is: don't blame Gordon Brown blame the Tories that privatised them in the first place!)
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It?s all very well pointing the finger at Joe Public and saying the days of cheap energy are over and we need to save for the future. I seem to remember in the late 90s, warnings that the oil was scheduled to run out around 2015. What have any governments done to prepare for alternative energy - SWEET NOTHING! We have hummed and haaed and listened to the Greens - stop burning oil and coal or anything else! Stop nuclear energy! Stop wind farms! Don?t use the Severn Estuary for tidal energy. Having dithered for years, will someone have the guts to make a decision that will provide us with some form of affordable energy? We live in a cool part of the world. We need heat. We have a government that is now suggesting nuclear energy. Hurrah! That will only take 20 years to come on stream. At nearly 60 years old, I may never see it! And another thing! You keep telling us that there is no money to help us. Well where had the money gone?
In particular Gordon Brown introduced the Eco tax on all flights. The government has also benefited ob a percentage basis on the VAT on fuel ? as fuel / heating oil went up so did the tax revenue. So where has this money gone? This government is beginning to make Maggie Thatcher look like Santa!
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re: 20
Lol ta. And you can be sure I shall. At the moment I feel neutral towards the Tories, but wary--- though this is nothing to the burning hatred I feel towards Labour. When Labour are removed from office for good and can't do any more harm, I shall set to work doing my bit to discredit the Tories.
In my lifetime I expect to see an English parliament. But for this to happen, and real democracy to be established, we have to first
1) Demolish Labour. This is the top priority.
2) Get rid of the Tories. With Labour gone/severely weakened, this is the time to vote for the Independents and remove the 'established' parties from power. (I'm assuming the Lib Dems will be the main opposition, though only by a small amount--- They shouldn't be too difficult to see off).
(NB I remember PurpleDogzzz posting a longer and more detailed argument on this topic, though I forget when and on which thread it was).
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25 john from hendon
well you sounded sane at first..... yes the regulators have been toothless.
.....but then you started to blame governments from over 11 years ago for labours current woes.
.... If re-nationalising the utilities made sense what has stopped tony and gordon?
..... if regulators have only acted like paper tigers then shouldn't their bosses in the government have kicked the utiltities hard?
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And herein lies the gross stupidity of Messrs Brown and Darling: "and express his confidence that Britain can make it through challenging economic times."
I mean to say, of course Britain will make it through. What's the alternative? Britain disappearing into thin air?
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Nick,
Re 13, is this correct? Is our GB now running scared of the EU?
What is the truth about re 13?
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"Undoubtedly we face a challenging period in the British economy - particularly given our position at the heart of the world's financial markets - and both the Chancellor and I understand the difficulties you face," he said. "But while never complacent about our economic prospects, I am also cautiously optimistic about the long-term resilience and underlying strengths of the British economy."
So I presume the pound will drop a few more cents today given our PM's sense of reality.
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Fantasyland opens in Westminster .....
Gordon Brown has vowed to free Britain from the "dictatorship of oil" with billions of pounds invested in nuclear and renewable energy sources to counter the effects of soaring world oil prices.
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re: 29
Britain as we know it will disappear if they have their way. I think they'd like to rename it Airstrip One...
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Once again labour totally miss the point.
Don't spend tax payer's money subsidising bits and pieces that you think people should be spending their money on (loft insulation etc), just let people keep more of their own money in the first place and then let people decide what they want to spend their own money on.
If I want to buy loft insulation, I'll buy it, but if food is more important then I'd rather eat. Let the people decide, stop stealing all our money and then forcing us to beg for it back via reams of forms and weird voucher systems.
These people are beyond a joke.
Shrink the state. Stop telling us what to spend our money on. Let us keep our own money. You don't need to take our money and then give some of it back again; if you simply took less of our money away in the first place then we'd all be fine and the costs would shrink massively.
They're trying to force the whole population into being 100% dependent on government handouts by stealing all our money and then expecting us to be grateful when we have to beg for enough back to be able to eat. It's a classic Stalinist approach.
Don't let them! Revolt/rebel now!
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re: 34
They're trying to force the whole population into being 100% dependent on government handouts by stealing all our money and then expecting us to be grateful when we have to beg for enough back to be able to eat. It's a classic Stalinist approach.
Exactly right. They are filth and must be stopped at any cost.
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!
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The incompetence and mis-management by this government knows no bounds.Now i have no objection to extending energy efficiency measures or to eliminate the unfair energy tariffs suffered by the poorer elements of soceity.But why oh why has it taken all these years to get serious about these issues?
It does not require a genius to forsee that ,irrespective of the climate issues which we now rather belatedly realise, at some point our own oil and gas reserves would run down and we would be vulnerable to political/economic factors outwith our control.Whilst these factors will always impact upon all countries and we can never be completely immune we could with the adoption of a sustained energy efficiency strategy implemented in good time have limited the damage caused to both the consumer ,and in particular the lower income groups who are less able to cope with huge price rises, and industry.We would now not have a government making what is a knee jerk reaction rather than what should have been a fine tuning exercise.
Unfortunately action has come too late,the pain is more severe than it needed to be and the medicine consequently matches the severity of the pain.
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#33 pttp
"Britain as we know it will disappear if they have their way".
Why are you trying to get me to support Labour? ;-)
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So short term One off gimicks are not the answer?
0ne year Stamp Duty threshold increase
One year 2.7billion tax refund after the 10% problem
6 Month delayed Fuel Tax increase
One off £100 winter fuel payment for pensioners
The list goes on and on....
And this is the man who in his 97 budget stated that rampant house price inflation was the major cause of boom and bust and under his leadership he would do every think he could to keep house prices in line with inflation.
Well we are now suffering a classice house price boom and bust economic ressesion
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If he really wanted to do someting about insulation he would take all 1m uninployed and the 500thousand on purminant sick leave due to stress. Train them to insall loft insulation, lag water pipes and tanks, and draft proof doors. Then send them out to EVERY house in the country to check and upgrade those cheap forms of insulation.
At a cost of well under £300 (I paid £400 inc vat, for a company to upgrade my 5bed house) per property it would be 5billion well spent.
Afterwards he could use them to fill caverty walls, then double glasing. But the lagging would be a very good start.
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Wonderful speech given by Mr Brown last night to the Scotish CBI. Ahh, the relaunch, the verve, the uplifting tones, we are saved, not.
We are perfectly well placed to avoid the problems which the economies of the world will have to face with the global economic crash. Ah, yes I can imagine the politicians in 1928 saying exactly the same, I am reminded of a certain Herbert Hoover, well Brown is our Herbert.
I, and Alastair who will of course be the one responsible if I am wrong, will solve the problem, I have the solutions.
As Stock Markets around the world crash then of course action will be taken to stop the rot, only trouble is the money will be spent and then the problems reappear next year and there will be no more money to squander.
We are now being told that there is no constitutional reason why, if Brown goes, an election need follow, and the labour party can go on as before with a new leader. The party can go on.
Well that is absolutely right but does not this stink of a Banana Republic, where leaders come and go with the electorate going along with it. Well, that may be what has been allowed o happen in the past but it is nearly time to take to the streets. Brown out! Brown out!
He, Brown, is different, he took over as PM because of a agreement which he thought he had with Tony Blair. That is what is different about his coup. That is not the way to run our country, based on agreements. Eden was always thought to be the next in line after Churchill and he did take over, and what a disaster he was.
The same when MacMillan left, I always thought that R A Butler would take over, well 'they' knew something about him and he didn't take over, he wasn't offered the crown. Instead we had the dynamic Lord Home.
Brown is failing, we know it, he knows and the rest of the world knows it. He's finished and we shall not mourn his going. So, no matter how many relaunches he has he will fail.
May I humbly suggest that Gordon Brown go back to his academic roots and read Kant on Freedom and Equality in particular with reference to Imperium Paternale
'under such a paternal government, the subjects, as immature children who cannot distinguish what is truly useful or harmful to themselves, would be obliged to behave purely passively and to rely upon the judgement of the head of state as to how they ought to be happy, and upon his kindness in willing their happiness at all. Such a government is the greatest conceivable despotism'.
Now I know that Gordon Brown is not our head of state but he is the modern equivalent. He is a dspot and that is why he must go.
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Indeed. What the national, organisational, and individual ego needs to do is get a clue about quality, how everything is connected, and how capital accumulates. As someone commented on the wasteful engineering and customer care approach by retailers, life gives you a free masterclass in excellence, or how not to do things. All you have to do is open your eyes.
The secret weapon of America is what Stephen Fry commented on some months ago: Americans are taught confidence and communication at an early age. The secret weapon of Japan is Shinto, which promotes an interest in quality and consenus. Britain's historic middle-way has its wires crossed so there's a lot of yap but little do. But, a little calming down can help that doo-da flow.
A change of leader is never easy, and the global picture hasn't been too helpful, but the upcoming economic blip can help folks reflect and refocus. Mind is the root of all things. So, if decisions to go with the hot potential and retain employees is made, something new and a little sacrifice won't seem so scary after all. "Getting it" has never been so easy. Why fight it?
Let go. Be happy. Vote Labour. :-)
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Here's my plan:
1) Abolish/Cut VAT on domestic fuel (electricity, gas, oil).
2) pay for it by canceling the London 2012 Olympics.
Outcomes:
1) All households pay substantially lower prices for heating.
2) Billions not wasted on a pointless junket.
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#41
See Chuck Hogwash is still smoking something fairly strong.
No one in the right mind is going to vote labour ever again after the last eleven years of complete incompetence, lies and mismanagement.
Why on earth would you vote for the continuation of a ruinous regime without the slightest foresight to put in place policies for the country's future well being.
Every time Gordon Brown stnad up he delivers more ho air that the national grid. he's all what and no how. It's a labour trait through and through - go to every election making hundredsof worthy promises which you won't be able to keep but give you the moral high ground.
That game is over - eleven years and the public has had enough of Grinning Bambi Blair and Gurning Gordon; they know it's all lies and false hopes. Keynote speeches and work life balance initiatives. It's government by hot air and by deed poll. Every policy has a kite flown about it for a month before it's finalised just to make sure that some interest group or other isn't mildly offended by it.
It's weak and indecisve and has brought us to this poin without an energy policy, without any new power stations planned and with several about to be decommisioned. It's incompetence on the grandest of scales.
And anyone who votes for more of this is voting for us to move rapidly into the fourth division.
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Nick,
a good blog but I am slightly confused by the actions of the government over the situation with regard to Northern Rock, a nationalised bank, based in the labour heartlands of the north-east.
My point is, why exactly am I as a taxpayer, still seeing their logo on the training top worn by their, now former, manager, Kevin Keegan.
Am I, through my taxes, paying some sort of sponsorship to a football club, when we have the elderly and impoverished living in fuel poverty. Is this not another reason why we are so annoyed at a so-called labour government being profligate with our money. What is their sense of priorities.
Gordon Brown must tell us that absolutely no public money is being paid to Newcastle United, the building society is in public ownership or don't they know!
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Nick,
I wonder if you, or anybody else, could interpret for me why, when making a point, Gordon Brown seems to continually bring his hands together and touch his fingertips.
It looks like he is trying to create the image of a house or church, is this the subliminal message we are meant to get from a son of the Manse.
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#6 CEH
I honestly believed Gordon Brown had used his bottom to speak out of for all these months, silly me.
# Bitingtheirankles
I propose the dis-honourable Charles_E_Hardwidge be the inaugural recipient of Outstanding Denial of the Truth award?
Please don't worry Charles, I know you'll squeal, nothing personal be assured, but of all the Labour supporters here, one or two of whom make reasonably good points, you are the most blinkered and a worthy recipient. Would you refute Gordon Brown and his cronies have blighted peoples lives in this country? Thought so!!
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Government initiatives regarding energy-saving measures, particularly for houses occupied the lower wage earners, miss one vital point. Most of us live in older housing stock dating back to the pre-cavity wall era.
My house is a typical example. Built in1902, it has solid cold walls. I have 8 inches thick loft installation, double glazed windows and I have covered some internal walls with insulating plasterboard. Further more, most of my lamps are of the low wattage type.
Despite all this, my energy bills are now £1200 per year - 8% of my take-home pay - and due to rise even further. The solid walls account for a massive loss of heat and in winter they are very, very cold, even those I have insulated.
For us, extra money to help pay those bills, would be very welcome as there is little more I can do on energy efficiency front.
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re: 37 oldnat
lol perhaps that wasn't best phraseology to use with all you Scots on the board hungry for revolution!
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jonathancook@28
Only me! one of the 'Red flag wavers' or old troopers as you and pttpl put it.
So you can argue that you think labours economic success is down to Conservative "Long term strategy"(luck more like) pre 1997 and we can't refer back to the selling of the family silver leading to a profit motivated nationalisation of the countries infrastructure. Including Electricity generation. The only advantage to selling this was to bring in money and save it for a rainy day(Election Bribe). Short termism at its best.
It seems as we are in a minority, the non obsessive Labour haters that is, rather than the 'Red flag wavers' That we have our hands tied by the angry mob.
I thing Charles_E. does believe most of what he says so therefore isn't a Troll and he uses your own aggression against you. So if anything he is a Judo Troll. He is doing nothing wrong.
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I can almost hear Malcolm Tucker [played by the scorchingly good Peter Capaldi] saying...
"Offering the voter the big prezzie, and then snatching it away just as their eyes are starting to light up - BASIC SCHOOLBOY ERROR Gordon !! This is politics from the Jim Bowen school of thinking - 'Let us have a look at what you would have won' - Shocking.."
Only with a lot more swearing and a Scottish accent..
Here's a thought - instead of getting Alistair Campbell on Newsnight as a talking head [yawn] yet again... Why not invite Mr Capaldi onto the show to deconstruct the week's big decisions in the political world in the character of Malcolm Tucker.
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I must admit, the lies and namecalling in this blog are disappointing and upsetting, but wonderful practice for developing serenity and ample demonstration of the forces of procrastination holding the nation back. Keep it up, dear.
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I enjoy the pathetic whingeing from the beleagered South. North of the Border we have vast fields of oil that will last well into the next century. You exploit it now but not for much longer We have cubic miles of accessible coal that we will shortly be using in an environmentally friendly way. Scotland also has Hydro electric power in abundance situated high above sea level and is exploiting wind and tidal power that you can only dream about. At the moment we are keeping our geothermal energy sources in reserve. Scientists tell us that the tectonic plate movement means that England is slowly sinking while Scotland is slowly rising: Wonderful news! We are currently governing your country into the ground and enjoying every minute of it. You deserve Nick Robinson, the most negative and depressing political reporter on the planet to make you even more miserable. We are chuckling our way to Independence and your moaning is accelerating the process.
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All we ever hear about, budget after budget, is how that 35bn deficit this year is 'investment in infrastructure'. 250bn so far plus whatever else is concealed in PFI. All for 'investment in infrastructure'.
Every other country in the world, when it overspends, has a budget deficit. We have a budget 'investment in infrastructure'. It's time for the dictionary to be up-dated.
And with all this 'investment in infrastructure' we have not one extra nuclear power plant. WE don't even have one started. We haven't even dug the hole. They haven't even applied for planning permission. Not one decent-sized hydro-electric or tidal project. Nothing. We have a few heavily subsidised windmills though that when the wind is blowing will just about light up Balamory.
With the result that in years to come our children will be sitting in cold-unheated classroom and our sick lying in cold, unheated hospitals. Because the 'investment in infrastructure', if it was needed at all, was totally misdirected.
We squandered all that money knocking down perfectly functioning hospitals and schools that just needed a bit more insulation and some new windows and replaced them with 200bn quids worth of glass and steel. Just so that Labour would have something concrete (or glass and steel) to point at as their 'legacy'. Their legacy will unfortunately be far more enduring than a few over-priced monuments to squandering. It'll be 'The Blair/Brown Bust'. It'll be in economic text-books for the next hundred years.
On the up-side. With the recession coming that should put back the demand for power by a good five years anyway. Cameron will have to hit the ground running with that one though.
Easily the most incompetent government for 60 years. Perhaps that's what Darling was on about.
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Nu-Labour have sown the seeds
Of destruction with self-serving deeds,
You reap what you sow
So get out Brown, go!
You're too weak to serve Britain's needs.
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I wonder if you, or anybody else, could interpret for me why, when making a point, Gordon Brown seems to continually bring his hands together and touch his fingertips.
Because if they didn't we'd see that his hands shake like the Waco Kid in 'Blazing Saddles'.
That's why.
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TAG post 4 I can assure you water isn't the problem in the UK we have had more than our fair share recently.
Does anyone know whether Sporting Index are running a spread bet on when Gordon goes?
Or what odds can I get on there being less than 150 Labout MPs after the next General Election?
I hae a lovely idea for the next Conservative party political broadcast. Perhaps they can just show slides of the house price falls and the rise in food prices detailed this morning and Alistair Darling saying the economy is up the creek.
All played under that lovely turneful ditty by D:Ream "Things can only get better".
And end with the strapline after eleven years of fiscal management by Gordon Brown it's time for a change.
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re: 49
I thing Charles_E. does believe most of what he says so therefore isn't a Troll and he uses your own aggression against you. So if anything he is a Judo Troll. He is doing nothing wrong.
Lol your delusion is worse than I thought. Go and have a cup of tea and a lie down!
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I enjoy the pathetic whingeing from the beleagered South. North of the Border we have vast fields of oil that will last well into the next century. You exploit it now but not for much longer We have cubic miles of accessible coal that we will shortly be using in an environmentally friendly way.....etc etc... We are chuckling our way to Independence and your moaning is accelerating the process.
Never quite got over that Mel Gibson video did you?
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Another episode of bottle Brown unsurprisingly bottling it again.
And a possible leadership battle, who wants to lead a battle to run a party in this much chaos and poor reputation.
Get rid of the lot
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51 CEH
Now don't get sensitive, think of all the enjoyment we have reading your postings, politics is dull and if we cant laugh at our selves we might as well join the Labour party, and become dull , inward looking and out of touch.
52 Fifer
Looking at the situation yes if you cut loose and had your independence and we pulled out all our money I am afraid you would be bottom of the league in Europe. Just look at you football, there was a time when you north of the border supplied our teams with talent now just a dim and distant memory.
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Charles_E_Hogwash @51 wrote:
"I must admit, the lies and namecalling in this blog are disappointing and upsetting, but wonderful practice for developing serenity and ample demonstration of the forces of procrastination holding the nation back."
Awww diddums!
You are obviously a glutton for punishment as a few weeks back you promised to go away.
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#14 -
So - for Blair read Wilson?
No problem with that. Another guy who got out of the way just before the chickens came home to roost.
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Nick, with a significant fall in crude oil prices from their peak a month or so ago, why are domestic oil and gas prices not falling also?
Ineffective regulation of the UK's energy cartels is one possibility. On what basis did the Regulator approve the extortionate increases over the Summer? Future costs, past costs, capex? Was that approval conditional on prices falling in line with materials costs? More transparency of the Regulator's decisions is essential if we are to understand why price increases are being approved and maintained in a market where raw material costs are actually falling.
Brown's attempts are futile - the corporations have their "regulated" price increases in the bag and HM Treasury is doing very nicely with its own revenue winfall as a direct result. The outcome will be to tell us all to wear thicker clothing and get used to it rather than examine the question of more accountable and transparent price regulation.
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@58 - especially when you point out the fact that they lost the battle and the reason why Scotland is part of the union is because we had to bail them out once they'd bankrupted themselves trying to set up a trading colony in a marsh in Central America. They forget that bit as they deep fry the large chip on their shoulders.
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CEH
"The secret weapon of America is what Stephen Fry commented on some months ago: Americans are taught confidence and communication at an early age. The secret weapon of Japan is Shinto, which promotes an interest in quality and consenus. Britain's historic middle-way has its wires crossed so there's a lot of yap but little do. But, a little calming down can help that doo-da flow."
Quite simplistic and very selective.
The USA became an economic power-house through unadulterated capitalism. (Too much so, in my view.) That requires communicatin and confidence - including the confidence to fail and start again.
During WWII, the US sat on the fence for a long time. There were plenty who thought the Axis would win (maybe should win) including JFK's father. British assets in the US were stripped, to help pay the way for survival and military support.
Post war, the US injected huge amounts of aid across Europe and into Japan.
Some made better use of the cash than others. We chose to plunge into massive nationalisation. You couldn't blame workers for wanting a better life. You could blame government for not ensuring that Trade Unions showed responsibility - and trying to create a more professional management / executive style on both State-owned or private companies.
With a rather better understanding of how an organisation could work, we would not have decimated the locally-owned car manufacturing or ship-building industries.
Japan had massive US support for years. We can all take something from their focus on quality management, especially in manafacturing / industrial areas. BUT, they had massive problems with property bubble-bursting. Something Brown seemed to say in 1997 that he'd ensure wouldn't happen here. Not much success there, hey?
It disturbs me that some of the UK energy supply companies are in foreign hands, as that dilutes their concern for local people.
But government could have develped and legislated for a different, socially aware, approach for any business to operate in the UK. Don't see much sign of that over the last decade - just thousands of pages of new laws, regulations, EU edicts that strangle businesses and add to their cost-bases.
Like or dislike the privatised companies? Doesn't matter. Don't forget that if Maggie hadn't sold off BT, there would not have been any competition in the telecoms space. Because there was, Brown could auction off bandwidth for GBP 20BIL. Now that was a genuine windfall! (All that loot simply disappeared into a general Treasury pot. After the UK experience, European countries took a less aggressive stance. So they didn't strip out the very money that companies needed to invest in R and D and building infrastructure...)
For me, the main problem of the Brown/Balls partnership (with Blair's connivance or lack of understanding) was their ability to devise "cunning plans" to raise tax. With minimal experience of ensuring that OUR money was well managed during the spending phase.
Oh well.
Things have certainly changed, however.
Remember Brown's refusal to wear a penguin suit when attending Mansion House functions. Pretty infantile way of saying he wasn't part of the establishment.
Now at least he has the grace to dress in accordance with custom.
Just rather surprised that he didn't wear a kilt, to reaffirm his empathy with the people who will probably cause his downfall...
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T A Griffin (TAG) @45,
I tried to answer you using a medical term (that also explained the label of "pyschologically flawed"). But this has been 'referred to the moderators' by the powers that be...
Just look in a dictionary just a few word after 'asparagus'.
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#52 FiferEck
Pardon, but your Anglophobia is showing! I am a Scot, always warmly welcomed in England and without any of the animosity or bitterness too often shown by my countrymen!
Your post reminds me of a Brazilian pal, who related this story that Brasileiros would tell against themselves.
And whilst God was creating the earth, it became Brazil's turn. He filled the country with lush rain forests, mighty rivers, and filled the ground with huge mineral deposits. Then He arranged adjoinment of a sparkling ocean, also filled with bountiful resources. As a final touch, He placed Brazil under sunny, ble sky.
The Angel Gabriel turned to the Lord and said, "God, is it right to give one country so very much?" And God smiled, and said, "Just wait until you see the people I'm going to put there...."!
Nuff said?
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58: Remember we didn't make the video. We inspired it
61: Check the international team ratings and be very afraid!!
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I saw something recently which said that a lot of politics is a game of bluff.
It probably is.
People's aspirations, in terms of their general standard of living, are very high in these developed countries and politicians often struggle to meet those expectations.
I'm not saying we, the English public, should go easy on them, after all they did volunteer to do the job, but they have to deliver or get the chop.
Politicians who boxing themselves in with dogma just annoy the people.
'Nudge'* is a much more sensible approach than coercion.
The English in particular hate being told what to do.
So I say, this particular set of politicians have largely bought all this upon themselves by crimping the freedoms of English people.
* No I have not read the book, it is obvious that that approach is more likely to be more effective.
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#56
Water may not be the problem in the Uk but I like to think that my views can be applied globally. Water not a problem in the UK who cares about the rest of the planet?
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#64
Oil is priced in dollars. Have you not understood as to exactly how far the pound has fallen against the dollar. Are you like an awful lot of people who continue to live in ignorance as to the effect a fall in sterling has on the price of goods.
Maybe you ought to consider those older people who retired to the Eurozone when they would have got about 16,000 Euro for £10,000 pension and who now get about 12,000 Euro. They will soon want to come back to good old blighty!
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#67
So you think that Gordon is an Aspidistra, how weird is that.
Must be looking at the wrong dictionary.
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#45 TAG
I must interpret carefully, as yesterday I was bad and had several postings pulled off.
I recall as a child, fiddling about with my fingers and chanting the rhyme, "Here's the church, and here's the people." The pointy part GB always does represents the church, the naughty part is "here the people". It involved waggling the middle fingers and my old nannie said it was "Rude"! Sexual connotations of a willie?
Other more prosaic possibility is that GB has bitten off all his nails and is now attacking his fingers.
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Once again the government only seem to feel that it is families with children that are worthy of help. I mean those of us who are single, still paying off student debt whilst working full-time without any hand-outs or benefits and who are ineligible for tax-credits never struggle to survive in the ever-increasing costly society. Our tax is taken away and handed about without any regard for those who choose not to have kids and who can ill-afford themselves to heat their own, usually rented and shared, homes as the cost of living for a single person far outstrips that of the cost for two in all areas, from sharing bills and food to sharing accommodation.
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#28 jonathan_cook
I do blame the Tories for selling off the monopoly utilities- as they actually did do it.
Labour came into power with the stipulation to the electorate that they would not change Tory policies, and to be fair, that is exactly what they did.
So who do you blame for selling of the utilities, if not the party that sold them off?
As to Re-Nationalisation: that raises different questions - if the consumers are getting a fair deal from the privatised monopolise; and regulation is seen to be working then there is no need to do it and there are far better things to do with tax revenues. However as this has apparently ceased to be the case and Regulation has manifestly failed then today re-nationalisation must be at least on the agenda. If it is put on the agenda it will clearly concentrate the minds of the utilities to ensure that they offer the best possible deal to consumers.
"if regulators have only acted like paper tigers then shouldn't their bosses in the government have kicked the utilities hard"... yes! (but see above)
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What we now see clearly is that there is just not enough money left to go around.
Windfall taxes in the past were a disaster for pension funds. Ask anyone whose pension has not met with promised expectations. We aren't just talking private pensions but pensions overall who rely on dividends from these companies to fund them.
The biggest problem this government faces now is where will they get the money from to fund future pensions. Especially the over generous outdated index linked pensions still enjoyed by the public services including politicians.
This is a subject that the media have not yet caught up with but will be the major talking point in the very near future.
Who really wants to work 'til they drop?
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I prefer to think it's focused and relevant.
It may help people develop some understanding.
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Let's be honest here, the government are secretly hoping thousands will die this winter, that will ease pensions, free up NHS beds, ease money on the NHS, free up houses to ease the housing crisis, Browns refusal to help the poor is basically the start gun to a human cull.
Labour MPs are going on the news channels stating a payment must be made to the poor yet as usual these gutless wonders will not threaten to bring Brown down, if Brown was serious about energy efficiency this winter then how many will actually receive the help before the cold starts to bite? not many.
what would be a better way to die, slowly by starvation and hypothermia or to be shot?
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58: Remember we didn't make the video. We inspired it.
I think you'll find it was 'inspired' by the over-the-water-blind-hatred that 'inspires' so many Scottish (and Irish) ex-pats to blame the reason they fled their cold, wet country of birth on something other than having the mis-fortune to being born in a cold, wet, miserable country on somebody else. For the Scots and the Irish this happens to be the English. The same hatred that up until 10 Sept 2001 had second generation 'Irish Americans' collecting gun-money from the bars of Boston and New York.
Hence, Mel Gibson, his mind poisoned by his Irish-born mother directed or starred in Braveheart, Gallipoli, The Patriot. Are you seeing a theme here?
Blockbuster just called. They want their video back.
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# 77
Gordon Brown, advised by those 'brilliant' people at the Treasury, decided that he could take what turned out to be some 5 billion pounds a year from pensions funds by withdrawing tax relief.
As I understand it, the Treasury theory was that companies would compensate, because the rate of Corporation tax was also reduced, by increasing the amount of dividends so that overall, pension funds would not see much difference to their income.
Unfortunately this theory demonstrates a horrifying lack of perception of what actually happens in the commercial world.
Company profits are volatile and the divis have not been increased a a rate that would make up the pension shortfall caused by the 'tax raid'.
As journalist William Rees-Mogg so memorably wrote 'Gordon Brown - the man who stole all our futures'.
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virtualsilverlady
I agree with everything you said. The problem is, if I can't even get an interview for a job at 52, which I am well qualified to do, what chance have I got to work until I am well into my 70's - or over. My state pensionable age has already increased from 65 to 68 over the last year but my NI contributions haven't changed at all.
I, like you, do not want to work until I drop and there are millions of people out there who feel the same as us. However, it does beggar the question - if it is unlikely that we will receive a state pension when we retire, just what ARE we all paying for?
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I do blame the Tories for selling off the monopoly utilities- as they actually did do it.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
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#43
"No one in the right mind is going to vote labour ever again after the last eleven years of complete incompetence, lies and mismanagement."
I completely agree with you about CEH (wish I could filter him out). But I have to disagree about people voting Labour - the client state is very large, and insulated from economic reality by a thick layer of taxpayers' money. Also, many are motivated by brainless chip-on-shoulder class-hatred and/or polytechnic-Marxist claptrap. Just read their outpourings on HYS. They'd destroy this country rather than see a Tory government.
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80. At 12:30pm on 05 Sep 2008, U9461192 wrote:
58: Remember we didn't make the video. We inspired it.
I think you'll find it was 'inspired' by the over-the-water-blind-hatred that 'inspires' so many Scottish (and Irish) ex-pats to blame the reason they fled their cold, wet country of birth on something other than having the mis-fortune to being born in a cold, wet, miserable country on somebody else. For the Scots and the Irish this happens to be the English. The same hatred that up until 10 Sept 2001 had second generation 'Irish Americans' collecting gun-money from the bars of Boston and New York.
Hence, Mel Gibson, his mind poisoned by his Irish-born mother directed or starred in Braveheart, Gallipoli, The Patriot. Are you seeing a theme here?"
Yes but its about you. Perhaps you need to get over your problem with Irish people?
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They'd destroy this country rather than see a Tory government.
Looks like they're going to get both. A destroyed country followed by a Tory government.
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77 Virtualsilverlady
Horrible confession to make. In reply to your question, "Who wants to work till they drop"? I did, for several years. I come from a family where my grandfather worked until 86, my father until 88 and my mother until 73. I was raised to be a "donkey" in the modern idiom for somebody who doesn't expect handouts. I believe working keeps lots of people healthy and bright. Look at how politicians quickly crumble once out of their seats. If a person wants to retire, fair enough, but in a real democracy, the able and capable should be allowed to continue in employment.
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Yes but its about you. Perhaps you need to get over your problem with Irish people?
Where did you manufacture that idea from?
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84 secret skiver, the name says it all. the mistake you make is that you think that these comments on these blogs have any significance in the real world they are only one mans/womans opinion, some are amusing some are stupid and then some are incredibly spiteful we do get the odd one here and there that is meaningful even on rare occasion from a Tory. Mostly they are from elderly people who have nothing better to do and now and then from some young nutter who thinks that the world began the day he/she was born but for all that as crazy as it might seem I dont think there is anybody that would fit into the category of
" They'd destroy this country rather than see a Tory government."
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Nu-Labour always evade the consequences of their crimes, misdeeds and negligent mistakes through lies and spin. The trouble is that they got drunk on the sense of invincibility it brought them and they came to rely on it too much, and over time it corroded the party's ideology and their thinking to an extent where they now think in vague woolly-headed abstractions all the time, and have no idea what they believe except that they must stay in power at any cost. Look at the political correctness obsession and the frighteningly large vocabulary of oily Labourspeak that has seeped into our language.
O Labour were very cunning--- controlling their followers through a corrupt and imposed ideology, with language trickery and their sinister vision of how society out to be structured... Now we are paying the price.
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#83 U9461192
"You say that like it's (sold off the utilities) a bad thing."
Well, if having no control over profiteering in the utility companies if something that you see as a good thing then perhaps you do not see it as a problem. (that they were sold off)
I see having sold off natural monopolies to (now) mainly foreign owned multinational companies and thus having no (or very little) regulatory control over them as a 'bad' thing. If you do not then perhaps you will not see the party responsible for the policy (Tories) as being culpable, but please be prepared to explain that to the hypothermia victims this winter.
They (the Tories) did it (sold off the utilities) for dogmatic political reasons - now the elderly and poor must suffer and if you think that this situation if OK then that is a matter between you and your conscience.
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82 shellingout , Always look on the bright side of life ,in the eighties you couldn't get a interview for a job when your were 32 and up until 97 you couldn't get a job at 22 because there were two million after the same job and if you did you were paid whatever they liked to pay you, God and you people complain, unbelievable.
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@90
CEH
DHWilkinson
Eaton Rifle
Grand Atrichoke
You all fit that category!
The cap fits!
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I read a lot of stuff I don't agree with or like, but don't let it get to me. Buddhism says that if someone believes thoughts and feelings are real then they are. At least, to them. If your clinging is hurting you, let go.
Dial 0800-LOVE-GURU.
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@92
Its not the policy of selling them off that is at fault.
Its the regulation that is.
GB as C of E and subsequentally as PM has overall responsibility for those regulators and he failed to do his job.
Story of his political career, thank goodness it will be over by May 2010
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84 secretskivver
did you see Michael Fabricant and his. Its Coffee mate joke? You know the one It can't be Coffee mate because its white. He got arrested in Colombia because he was carrying a jar of white powder. He said it was coffeemate instead of coffee whitener and hilarity ensued. Boris Jonson and Micheal Fabricant a couple of monty python style upper class twits and a couple of trendy vicars in the form of David Cameron and William Hague. What a terrific future you forsee.
Its not what they say its what they don't say that makes them so attractive to voters. isn't that right!
"Just read their outpourings on HYS." is this a joke? Have you ever read that site? It is full of out of touch Conservatives and BNP supporters about 10 times worse than this site and Pestons site put together and as you might know I and others suspect there is cheating going on with the recommends. so few people not in the right wing fanatic frame of mind can be bothered with it.
Now I predict you will say I'm paranoid. But the teachings of CEH have enlightened me from my former victim mentality. Now this is just a bit of fun. Not to be taken too seriously.
signed
a Marxist with a chip on my shoulder, dillusional, paranoid egotist with an inferiority complex, non entity.
ps Keep it up with the curtain twitching, daily mail reading, judgemental claptrap. Your chip appears to be on your right shoulder.
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The Prime Minister said last night: " ...the trebling of oil prices and the credit crunch reflect deeper forces at work - the pressure on resources as four billion people enter the global economy; the rise of Asia as a manufacturing and services power, the restructuring of jobs, the scale, scope and speed of technological change and then the pressures on the living standards and expectations of communities and families as a result."
And all of this, apparently, happened in the last few months, since he doesn't seem to have noticed much of it before...Amazing, that, isn't it?
Please, please Mr Brown, recognise now that this job is beyond you and just go.
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but please be prepared to explain that to the hypothermia victims this winter.
Will there be as many hypothermia victims as the 1970's when the mines used to go on strike every winter? The utilities were sold off to stop that kind of behaviour.
We were freezing every winter back then. High price of oil or low price of oil. They were like French air-traffic control. Wait till the Easter holidays then disrupt the whole of Europe.
We'd have been freezing every year without fail if we'd laet the status quo continue. That's the comparison you need to make. That's why the utilities were sold off. It does rankle a bit that profits on British subsiduaries will be used to subsidise French consumers but that's what happens when you join a club set up for the benefit of the French.
now the elderly and poor must suffer and if you think that this situation if OK then that is a matter between you and your conscience.
My conscience is clear. At least we have the choice of putting the heating on today. We didn't used to be given any choice. Arthur Scargill would get up one afternoon and declare a strike. And we'd come home in the cold and light our candles.
That's what drove the Tories to nationalise the utilities. So now who is to 'blame'?
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my comment on the question of fuel poverty is that giving the winter fuel payment to every pensioner is wasteful in that not all of us need them. for example mp's get a very good pensionand £250 does not make that much difference and to a family on low income it would have much more of an impact. How about people paying 40% tax do not get the winter payment and the money is given to the low paid
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79 icegillian what a sick sad tormented mind you must have, I have read many unpleasant and offensive comments on these blogs but yours takes the biscuit, you are implying that give or take half the population of this country support a government that are prepared to deliberately allow millions of pensioners to die of cold and starvation in order to have more money to spend on the NHS etc; I suggest that you take your opinins and stick them were the sun dont shine.
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O Labour were very cunning--- controlling their followers through a corrupt and imposed ideology, with language trickery and their sinister vision of how society out to be structured... Now we are paying the price.
Yep. Stage managed party conferences with cheering acolytes and apparatchiks in a frenzy of evangelical adulation. 'Impromptu' campaign stops with bussed in supporters to 'spontaneously' cheer and drown out any heckling. All slavishly reported by state media in glorious technicolour.
Even the famous 1997 election night victory, the streets 'spontaneously' lined with cheering 'proles' at 2 o'clock in the morning. All very 'Triumph of the Will'
Leni Riefenstahl lives on.
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#72
"Oil is priced in dollars. Have you not understood as to exactly how far the pound has fallen against the dollar. Are you like an awful lot of people who continue to live in ignorance as to the effect a fall in sterling has on the price of goods."
The point was about a lack of transparency in regulation of domestic energy prices. The GBP/USD rate is entirely hedgeable by any business which buys its raw materials in USD although they will pass on the risk to anyone ignorant enough to accept it..
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Grandantidote
It's very easy for you to look on the bright side of life. You are obviously retired and sound reasonably well-off, unlike so many other pensioners.
If you were working now, and had to face the sort of uncertancies that we working people face as regards to whether we will actually have a job at the end of this year, or get a state pension when we retire, I wonder if you would be so glib with your comments.
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At the labour party conference it is time for the people to let Gordon Brown know what is really felt about him.
If there is any honesty left then when he stands to give his speech delegates must stand and boo or just walk out.
This has gone on long enough.
As for when parliament returns, when MPs come to PM questions they must again, just walk out, leave him talking to the empty benches, the Tories have it in their own hands to destroy this government. Just don't bother to ask any questions because there will be no answers anyway. He is a despot.
The lack of any action over fuel companies profits gives proof if any were needed that he has seriously lost touch with reality.
It is time for revolution, not a bloody one, but one which will bring done this craven parliament. It is time for action, David Cameron and the Tories must take action, and the only action they can take is to ridicule Gordon Brown. If something is not done soon then action will be on the streets, how many must die of hypothermia before the truth comes home to people.
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It's all very well trying to get us to lag our lofts and get cavity insulation, but my house was built in 1885 and doesn't have cavities to fill.
Why do energy savings grants with regard to insulating walls ignore those of us in this situation?
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Perhaps, you have some new technology, support, and a pot of money in your napsack? Flicking pebbles is easy if you're just some mouth typing on a keyboard. It's what some in the games industry call an "ideas man". They're cheap as dirt and twice as plentiful.
While you're trying to talk Gordon Brown off the frontpage, really, what you're doing is trying to talk yourself on. Well, if you actually had anything you'd be frontpage news soon enough. You don't, so you'll still just be an anonymous pundit when the presses roll for tomorrow's edition.
Sorry to be nasty, but some folks around here need to get some perspective.
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# 102
Yes, on reflection is does seem rather amazing how tightly they, well, Alistair Campbell, managed to control the media situation.
So tightly that we can actually list on the fingers of one hand how many times they actually came unstuck .. that is, when things did not follow 'the script'.
From memory, TB being roasted by that lady in the Brum hospital, TB being slaughtered by the WI ladies, DB raving about machine-gunning prisoners.
You could argue that the 'Gilligan Affair' went badly wrong but HMG got the result they wanted in the end.
Do you know what, I can't think of any others but there must have been some.
Quite remarkable, but it ain't democracy.
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#7 - I completely agree with your point.
I am tired of hearing people moaning about fuel prices and energy prices and how much it's costing them when there is so much obvious wastage. Strangely the ones who moan the most are often the ones
I have been unaffected by the prices as I ensured that:-
a) My landlord fitted double glazing
b) I bought a small engine car
c) I installed a combination boiler and efficient heating system (using 22" pipes for the flow - unlike the corner cutting plumbers who will use 15" if they can get away with it)
d) A thermostat for the boiler control in the correct location
e) Radiators installed in the CORRECT location (under the windows to improve convection)
f) Sealant and draught excluders around doors where appropriate
g) Driving my car at efficient speeds on the motorway
h) Adding several switch timers for TV and other devices in the house.
All I have left to do is convert the car to LPG and buy a house with a loft so that I can insulate it.
It's called thinking ahead - it's not like we haven't had plenty of warning, it's been coming for a long time.
I guess there are 2 types of person in this world, those who just get on with it (Ants) and those who just lie on their backs and cry like babies always blaming someone else for the problems they have from NOT LISTENING (Grasshoppers).
I calculated I could take another 30% rise in fuel prices and a 50% hike in energy prices before I will be paying what I was paying in fuel and electric / gas before the changes I made under the old pricing in 2003/4.
The Government should only help those who really can't help themselves - not the moaning masses who just can't be bothered.
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What exactly do Gordo et al expect is going to happen once all our homes have been thoroughly insulated under the new policy initiative?
Do they really think that the energy companies are going to sit back and watch their profits dwindle as home energy consumption is reduced? Of course they aren't. They're going to whack up their prices even more in order to compensate for any reduction in consumption and then some besides.
It's no wonder the energy and utility companies are happy to go along with this home insulation scheme - for them it will be "double bubble": produce less, charge more. Is Gordo really so daft as not to realise this?
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104 shellingout, Its easy to form rather odd opinions about people by just reading these blogs, your picture of me and the life that I have led is totally wrong I cant blame you for that we all do it.
Let me enlighten you. I am retired and live on a state pension with my Wife and small dog we manage quite well on our pension we dont smoke and very rarely drink other than the odd bottle of wine at home we dont eat out prefering to buy our food or treats at the local supermarket and cook at home, I can also afford to own and drive a SWB isuzu LPG converted trooper by being as Gordon says being prudent, we have a good life and enjoy each others company.
The years that I have lived through my friend as I described earlier were a damnsight more frought with uncertainty than the times you are experiencing now believe me.
I spent all my working years from the age of fourteen working with my hands and I mean manual labour not pushing a pen.
At 52 I dont think you have to much to worry about regarding a state pension the only thing to make that uncertain is if you have a Tory government when you retire.
thats not meant to be a political point, its just my opinion.
I certainly did not intend to be glib but I did think that you should be reminded of what was and what could be again, good luck with the job hunting.
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They care nothing for us. They think of nothing but themselves and how to leech as much of our money as possible to sate their gluttonous, treacherous appetites.
You will get what you deserve, Labour.
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105 TAG I dispair to think that there are still people in the world that still spout out the garbage that comes from your pen on a daily basis thank God that the majority of people can read it and think its just that old nut ranting again.
What on earth makes you think that you represent the majority of people in this country in fact I doubt if you even represent a very small minority of people that dwell here,
Do you honestly believe that people like myself and those that believe in our parliamentory system are prepared to listen to some misguided and obviously unstable person like your self and take action upon it to disrupt the appointed government of this country by following your insane instructions, the last one to do that was Guy Fawkes and look what happened to him so before old chap you go too far remember people will only tolerate so much of your nonsense. We as a nation obey the rule of law that why as a nation we are so successful. so stop preaching insurrection.
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The greatest gift the nation could now give to Gordon Brown is a slow handclap at the NewLabour party conference as he gets up to give his 'career saving' speech.
It will be full of long term plans without manner or method of delivery. 'every child matters' 'Every child a reader' 'Sure start' 'NewDeal'
Why don't they try 'Everyone's a winner, baby' accompanied by a rousing chorus of said song. It will be as shallow and empty as all the rest they have promised over he past eleven years of superiority and hubris.
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It's not perspective that some people on these blogs need, it's a touch of realism.
The trouble is that too many people are staying silent when they should be on the streets.
There are no giveaways according to Brown, Hope says that Clarke should shut-up!
Why should we, it is our informed opinions that we have every right to air. Why should the media be full of those who are only really protecting their jobs, their income.
It is only through these blogs that we are able to express our views, if you disagree with me then argue, the answer to me and people like me is not to say 'shut-up'.
Gordon Brown is still an Aspidistra!
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As world resources become more scarce Britains share will diminish. Can we expect capitalism and multi national companies to secure enough for us to share out ? UK parties are fixated with the free market. My worry is that this is fickle friend which is now turning its back on us. The government needs to ensure that this country can feed itself and look after our own energy requirements. If that requires public ownership we need to change our strategy. The risks of not doing so are too high to ignore.
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This morning, the river that runs 30 yards from the house was rising alarmingly and a large piece of oak tree which had broken off further up stream came crashing down and got lodged under the bridge.
Water was coming down the road because the culverts had not been cleared by the council, but that's another story.
Rang the Evironment Agency and they couldn't do anything because the river was running too fast.
So took matters into our own hands today. With our farmer neighbours, we got said lump of oak out of the river. Not only have we saved ourselves from flooding, but we will have fuel for the fire as well.
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!
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#96 Pot_Kettle
The regulation regime that you say is at fault was set up at the time of privatisation - and who did that?
Fundamentally, I do not believe that it is possible to be both a free-market capitalist enterprise and a regulated monopoly utility. One has market control mechanisms and the other has its position protected by being a state authorised monopoly which has a fig leaf of regulation. The power is with the utility and the regulator only has one stick and it cannot use that (of removing the monopoly utility's license to trade.)
It was, and is, a daft way to run an essential service.
#99 U9461192
I assume you mean 'Tories to privatise the utilities'. in your last paragraph - not 'nationalise'. True, the Tories have nationalised several enterprises such as Rolls Royce 1971 Ltd (By Edward Heath if I recall correctly.)
I do not recall that Arthur Scargill had much to do with the privatising of the utilities. I recall it was about selling the family silver to balance the books and provide tax cuts for the rich. The has been the case of all privatising, by all parties.
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When can we expect a visit from Gordon to Wales and the Westcountry, we are being deluged down here, what is he going to do about it.
Oh, that's right he won't come because he doesn't want to get in the way. Or afraid of the reaction from the population. When are they going to cancel the labour party conference because of a national emergency. The Republicans reduced their convention, come on Gordon, you're missing a trick here.
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Hey, look ... we, in the West, have been living beyond our means for ages now. Our standard of living has been falsely inflated by our profligate use of underpriced energy and our even more profligate use of easy money, borrowed against bubbled up overpriced assets.
We've been living off the backs of much harder working (but poorer) people in other parts of the world. And it's us that's kept them poor! Shameful really.
Every time somebody over here banks a "profit" on a house sale, or trousers a year end "bonus", or secures a nice fat pay rise for no extra work, then that person has stamped on the faces of a ton of people in developing countries who are trying to rise from poverty ... real poverty I'm talking about here, not having to go to Asda instead of Waitrose.
Well, we can't go on like that forever, can we? And nor should we. So, now things are changing and we are going to have to adjust to a much lower material standard of living. No point whinging about it, it's inevitable. It's all good and it's got next to do with Gordon Brown or Alistair Darling.
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GA
I'm obvously in the wrong line of business. I've applied for almost 56 jobs now (some have been a good distance from where I live) and I can't even get to an interview. Should I tell Gordon - who keeps banging on about firms not being allowed to be ageist? I doubt it would make a ha'penceworth of difference.
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106 Merseymal - because the people who come up with these schemes have no experience of old solid built houses.
Tell you a story. In 1986, from January to April, there was an intercensal survey on 20% of the houses in Wales and I covered Brecon and Radnor, an area of high hills and lowland towns. Guess where the planners sitting in their centrally heated offices thought it best for me to go in the winter months.
Yes that's right. It was up into the snow covered hills in January and February and it did snow that year. To get to one house (I had to get there or I wasn't paid), I climbed over the running board of an oil tanker that was trying to get to the same house.
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It's easy to jump to conclusions and be insensitive on the internet. I've done it myself. If folks can turn the volume down both content and relationships are more likely to develop well. Real world negotiations are no different.
Now, my first reaction to, say, the Burma issue is more softly, softly and long-burn than Gordon. My reaction to the energy companies is to bring down the hammer while Gordon goes softly, softly and long-burn. Why? Dunno.
If there's a general point, I think, it's that developing maturity is important. It helps us absorb issues and connect with other folks better. I use Zen but companies can use kaizen. It's the same thing: continuous self-improvement.
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So...what am I supposed to do?...my loft is well insulated...my cavities also.
All this cost,of course,borne by myself.
But...the fuel bills still go up inexorably into the stratosphere.
Should I cover all my outside walls with mud (or some other natural material) to add to the insulation?..and will GB help pay for it?
Nope..didn't think so...Oh well..excrement happens.
Oh!..of course!..I've been saving on fuel costs all these years because of my forthought,so I can now afford to pay the extortionate rates of today.
Silly me...
GB.... get out of our lives for good!
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Nick mentioned Browns Glasgow speech.
If you need any further proof that the SNP and Prime Minster Alex Salmond are in the driving seat up there in Scotland, then Brown confirmed it.
Brown conceded (not much choice really) that the Scottish Parliament would have to right to raise its own taxes as it saw fit.
If only we could finish the job of dismantling what is now a complete political zombie - the so-called 'United Kingdom' - right now.
Unfortunately we'll have to wait just a bit longer for that.
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This posting will be moderated by Xmas 2009
Why on earth would a lottery funded charity ever give 15,000 GBP to a political party?
BBC News
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#113
That is the basis of your argument is it, that I must be mentally unstable. Ouch, that really has upset me, not.
In Soviet Russia anybody who disagreed with the state must be mentally unstable and therefore good only for the lunatic asylum. Is this the level of debate we have sunk to.
It is because this country is so pathetic that we have reached this appalling state of affairs. It is just not good enough that Gordon Brown is going to allow Scotland to raise its own funds, we are seeing the break-up of Team GB.
By the way keep up to date with what has happened, the Russian Stock Market has plummeted, the Rouble has collapsed.
It may well be that I rant, but I try not to get personal about other contributors, am I touching a raw nerve?
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are a disgrace, our training of forces in other countries will bring nothing but problems, and the economy is well shot. We can't even afford to protect the aged from freezing to death. What will it take to bring about change.
It is not only the labour party which has let down Britain, it is the whole political system, from the lowest District Councillor to the Prime Minister.
This country is more corrupt than many realise. Oh, and before you say it I do not intend to flee, I would rather bring about change here, and then spread the message. It really doesn't have to be like this.
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I've got this private fantasy where I imagine the cabinet have been practising for the past few years, and knock out "Rock 'N' Roll". Jack Straw on the guitar, Alistair Darling on the bass, and Alan Johnson on the drums, or something, cuz Gordon's THE COOL.
Man, you'd blow an artery if that happened.
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107 CEH
I LIKE YOUR GORDON QUOTE.....
A LIST OF ENTIRELY PREDICTABLE EVENTS. A HUGE RISE IN OIL PRICES...... NO SURPRISE REALLY.... ESPECIALLY AFTER THE FIRST IRAQI OIL WAR IN 92 AND THE SUBSEQUENT ONE.
A LOT OF PEOPLE ENTERING THE GLOBAL POPULATION AND COMPETING FOR RESOURCES AND UNDER CUTTING OUR MANUFACTURING..... I DON'T REMEMBER CHINA OR INDIA KEEPING THEIR POPULATION SIZE OR INTENT A SECRET.
..... YET BROWN RATHER FOOLISHLY PROMISED AND END TO BOOM AND BUST.....
HE IS FORCED TO TRY AND STATE BIG SCARY NUMBERS AND GLOBAL CHANGE AROUND BECAUSE HE BLEW THE KITTY AND NEVER HAD A PLAN TO PAY FOR THE BAD TIMES.
IT IS BROWNS MESS AND HE WILL LOSE THE ELECTION BECAUSE OF IT.
p.s. sorry for caps lock - am using my mobile on the internet and am too lazy to chANGE (apart from by accident)
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T A Griffin (TAG) @115,
No... he suffers from asparagus ssss......
Oh no! Oh no! I'm being muzzled by the moderators!
Help! Help! Aaaarggghhhhhh....
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viablowinginthewind @117,
Careful your council don't sue you for breaching 'ealth and safety regulations.
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119. T A Griffin (TAG) @119 asks:
"When can we expect a visit from Gordon to Wales and the Westcountry, we are being deluged down here.... ".
Why add insult to injury?
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#117 viablowinginthe wind
Rang the Evironment Agency and they couldn't do anything because the river was running too fast.
That's cos elf and safety, mate!
Thank goodness some of us have still got initiative.
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re: 126
Stealing from children!!! Outrageous!!! And I thought Labour couldn't sink any lower. I was wrong.
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#130
Now please do not have a go at the wonderful moderators. They are the best in the country and I will never accept any criticism of them on any issue.
They do a very difficult job and are what keeps our great country together. Without the moderators we would be nothing, so please do not blame the modera.....
Aaaarrrrggggghhhh... they've got me, help, help, my legs, my legs, I can't feel my legs!!!
It must be the Aspidistra Aaaaarrrrgggghhhh
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Over 2hrs to moderate a post! You moderators are lazy brainwashed government-controlled Beeboid thought-police jobsworths.
So there.
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#125 John
The media interpret Gordon Brown banging on about "Britishness" as an attempt to ingratiate himself with Middle England.
That idea never seemed to make much sense, as most English people seem to me to rather tolerant of the non-English. That Brown happened to be Scottish would not previously have been an issue.
Within Scotland, however, (and Brown is a Scots politician) there is this fundamental debate between the increasing number who feel themselves to be primarily Scottish and want political expression for that, and the reducing number like Brown who are Scots, but passionately "British" in a way that (I suspect) makes little sense south of the border.
I wonder whether the visceral dislike of Brown that I read here is more than just that he is an incompetent PM or Labour (both obviously true), but also that he's using "your" politics, and manipulating the UK, to fight an "alien" political battle.
I'd welcome your views on these observations.
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PM Brown is right to go for long term solutions instead of gimmicks.
That's what the people say about him, too. To get the the longer term, he has to get out of the way, PDQ.
" No Gimmicks and spin"? Cough!!
New Labour's black arts.
But specifically about energy waste and economy....
Who knows just how much it costs to turn their oven on for one hour at, say, 180 degrees?
Or one ring of their gas/electric hob for 20 minutes,
or an 800 microwave for 5 minutes etc.?
People just do not know clearly enough what these appliance cost to use --- and they need to!
So, which energy company is issuing easy to understand references for these every day, every home costs|? None!
Will Gordy and his band of Half-brain Meddlers please insist that energy companies start to make a real effort to educate the users of their products as to typical, if not the actual every day costs?
That would be have big impact on efficient and improved economic usage.
John C.
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nick,
the prime minister is to be congratulated for directing additional resources to a long term solution of higher energy costs.
he does, however still need to direct resources to the short term issue of this winter.
how is a family or pensioner earning the "minimum wage" (set by government) expected to be able to afford a 35% increase in gas and some foods.
the tax credit and pension credit system targets all those who are most vunerable to the current inflationary pressures.
surely now it is time to target winter fuel payments to the people who need it most rather than all above the age of 60.
is it right to pay a winter fuel payment to an m.p. or anyone else earning sixty thousand plus per annum when others are struggling to keep warm and to have something decent to eat!
l fear for our people.
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PM Brown is right to go for long term solutions instead of gimmicks.
That's what the people say about him, too. To get the the longer term, he has to get out of the way, PDQ.
" No Gimmicks and spin"? Cough!!
New Labour's black arts.
But specifically about energy waste and economy....
Who knows just how much it costs to turn their oven on for one hour at, say, 180 degrees?
Or one ring of their gas/electric hob for 20 minutes,
or an 800 microwave for 5 minutes etc.?
People just do not know clearly enough what these appliance cost to use --- and they need to!
So, which energy company is issuing easy to understand references for these every day, every home costs|? None!
Will Gordy and his band of Half-brain Meddlers please insist that energy companies start to make a real effort to educate the users of their products as to typical, if not the actual every day costs?
That would have big impact on efficient and improved economic usage.
John C.
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Now is the summer of our discontent......
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I commented some time ago that a more unified legal system would be helpful, and the Prime Minister's comment may indicate that's what he's doing. If that's the case it should strengthen the union.
Like Ieyasu Tokugawa, Gordon Brown is an INTJ personality type. If there's one thing he hates it's mess and disunity. If I'm correct, this fundamental change should close the door on any Balkanisation of the UK.
It's an idle speculation but interesting to compare this moment in Britain's history with the Sengoku period in Japan: Thatcher, Blair, and Brown to Oda, Toyotomi, and Tokugawa for their ruthlessness, charm, and patience, respectively.
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Labour supporters.
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#142 Chuck
You are an idiot. Unless you're suggesting that England adopts Scots Law, such a proposal would breach the Treaty of Union. Oh, that you were PM! England and Scotland would be independent immediately!Complain about this comment
"If something works, use it. If it doesn't, throw it away."
-- Bruce Lee.
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#144 pttp
Ah, but in Northern Ireland the DUP will probably be campaigning to have this taught in science classes along with creationism!
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#146 Chuck
We agree. We're throwing away the UK Parliament.
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When a move is made it changes the state of the system and you have to recalculate. I don't see the Republic of Ireland rejoining a reformed UK as an impossibility. They've considered it, before, and circumstances change.
If the Prime Minister is anything like me, he looks beyond the quarter to quarter balance sheet and thinks in terms of decades. I don't see 50 years as being too long. One can still be alive to see it, plus, you have to OMFG!!! think of the children.
Still, as I said, idle speculation.
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127 TAG every time I read what you have to say it touches a raw nerve.
Some people live in pain some I am told start to enjoy it after a while, I think you might be one of those people no one who is not in pain could possibly moan complain and denigrate everybody and anything in the way that you do could do it without being in pain whether it be mental or physical so in a small way that ouch of yours made me happy that I had in a very small way contributed to something you so obviously enjoy.
The basis of my argument is not that your unstable, although that doesn't help your cause, its just that I find you a thoroughly disloyal and self seeking unpleasant individual.
Be interested to know how many people you know of, whether personally or not, that have frozen to death in this country through lack of government support
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Lol. Handbags at dawn?
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#149
You don't have a clue. I'll actually tell you one reason why you are correct in one respect. Yes I am in pain.
Tell you why. My father was old and in hospital, it was obvious that he was dying. So, on his last night we were told by the hospital staff that because there was no knowledge as to when he would die, they could no longer keep him in hospital. They were therefore going to discharge him the next day. We said that we would come to collect him the next morning.
However, they discharged him very early so when we arrived he was already on his way home. We therefore turned around and went home . My two young sons were at home when we arrived and there was an ambulance outside the house. we were advised that dad had had a heart attack, best that he was not disturbed. He actually died in the ambulance.
Now, I am still angry, very angry because nobody, no state does that to my father. So, yes I am still in pain, and I am very angry.
My son subsequently joined the army and did very well, 2 para, top of class, straight in not via any regiment. Extraordinarily proud because of his awards, and service to his country. Then comes Iraq. You have to realise that the soldiers, who actually do the fighting, the killing and the dying, were lied to.
That is why I am angry, he refused to do what he was expected to do and was given an honourable discharge. That is why I am angry with Tony Blair and the politicians. They do not have to do the dirty work. They sit in parliament, they destroy the economy, they destroy the values which were held in such high regard. They are the guilty ones, and just as I will never forgive the system for what happened to my father, retired RN, Lt Cmdr MBE, I will never forgive the rotten state which has led to the carnage in my name and your name in Iraq and Afghanistan. Gordon Brown is just as guilty, he has blood on his hands, just like they all do.
As for my son, Ben, he now drives ambulances in London, he had the courage to do what he knew was right, he would not follow orders, and what have they done, our wonderful MoD they have taken him to court and taken out an injunction preventing him from speaking in public. What a great country we live in, freedom of speech. Well they are so afraid of what is said that they have to shut him up.
The truth will eventually come out about Dr David Kelly and his death, there must be a formal proper inquest. And just to throw some more oil on the fire, you and those like you keep an eye on Camelford and Aluminium Sulphide.
Am I angry, yes, but so should so many other people be angry if they really cared.
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@101 , grandantidote
You must live in that wonderful dream land called cloud cuckoo, you must be one of those people who think no government ever could be so callous as to see the death of it's own people eh?, never in England?
Are you honestly thinking that any gov would pull out all the stops, no matter what the cost financially to help the general public?
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pttp
When you're in a particularly grumpy mood, you may enjoy the Letters to Hugh
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Thanks oldnat. I am in a grumpy mood today actually (as opposed to an extremely grumpy one that is). I shall have a look
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Come on boys and girls Gordon is having a hard time, maybe we should try a more sympathetic approach. Perhaps he is suffering deep down and wants to liked or even loved by just a few.
May be........ C-E-H could teach him the benefits of total calm ......TAG could take him on a relaxing holiday in the West country.....
we all could do our bit .
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"If something works, use it. If it doesn't, throw it away."
Of course, in the real world there are alternatives.
Like: if it doesn't work - FIX IT.
"If the Prime Minister is anything like me, he looks beyond the quarter to quarter balance sheet and thinks in terms of decades. I don't see 50 years as being too long."
If Brown and the expensive Treasury advisors looked even a few years ahead, he's have spotted the growth of Asian economies and had a little clue that this could trigger demand on key resources.
(BTW. I understand that Tokugawa - your emeplar of "patience" - came to power after bloody civil conflicts in 1603. Then abdicated in favour of his son in 1605, but retained effect control for a decade.
The parallel would be that Brown goes next year in favour of his (political) son Ed Balls, but remains the power behind the throne.
What a prospect!)
It's all very well taking a long view, as long as you DO something. It's taken more than a decade for the government to recognise the need for new energy generation of any kind to keep us going.
In 1958/ 68/78, even 1988, it would have been hard predict - not just imagine - the impact of the WWW.
But hardly difficult to predict the growing demand for energy!
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#151
Notice that it has been referred to the wonderful moderators.
I wonder what Mr Griffin said which has resulted in such action.
As for #149 well I am quite well, thank you
You say that 'The basis of my argument is not that your unstable, although that doesn't help your cause, its just that I find you a thoroughly disloyal and self seeking unpleasant individual'.
I would totally disagree with your assertion, there is no evidence for it. May I humbly suggest, for I am a humble person, that you read The Duty of Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau or John Rawls on Civil Disobedience, you actually may learn something.
My own personal experiences and those of members of my family are why I am the way I am, but I also look at the evidence around me of what is happening to other members, of the human race, and do you know what, I don't like what I see, and experience.
There must be change!
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"If something works, use it. If it doesn't, throw it away."
Of course, in the real world there are alternatives.
Like: if it doesn't work - FIX IT.
"If the Prime Minister is anything like me, he looks beyond the quarter to quarter balance sheet and thinks in terms of decades. I don't see 50 years as being too long."
If Brown and the expensive Treasury advisors looked even a few years ahead, he's have spotted the growth of Asian economies and had a little clue that this could trigger demand on key resources.
It's all very well taking a long view, as long as you DO something. It's taken more than a decade for the government to recognise the need for new energy generation of any kind to keep us going.
In 1958/ 68/78, even 1988, it would have been hard predict - not just imagine - the global impact of the WWW.
But hardly difficult to predict the growing demand for energy!
(BTW. I understand that Tokugawa - your exemplar of "patience" - came to power after bloody civil conflicts in 1603. Then abdicated in favour of his son in 1605, but retained effect control for a decade.
The parallel would be that Brown goes next year in favour of his (political) son Ed Balls, but remains the power behind the throne.
What a prospect!)
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Hilarious that he thinks that the energy companies would bail him out.
Just goes to show he has no idea how a private company operates.
Bet the executives involved with the negotiations, after paying lip service for days to all his fine ideas had a bloody good laugh over dinner.
Still? bet it wasn?t 13 courses.
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148. Charles_E_Hardwidge.
"If the Prime Minister is anything like me".
The PM is nothing like you, I promise.
Things are bad but not that bad.
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On the subject of the government not paying a one off payment to the people on poorer income is not the solution. The simple way and its just like your home budget, the government should pay 10% of the persons pensions or benefit a week directly into their bank accounts pacifically for fuel so it can not be used for any other reasons if they pay their fuel bills by direct debit. Or if they pay by cash meters they should be given a voucher for to be used with their payments at the shop they top up their keys for their fuel, That way at least some money is being paid towards their fuel to keep warm.
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Nick,
Brown's speech can't be interpreted as a direct response to Charles Clarke's intervention in the week. So it is not a matter of whether or not one speech to the Scottish CBI "is enough" for the PM to keep his job. This is typical media management. The media love the "Brown story" and look to perpetuate it in any way possible. Simon Jenkins was saying as much on Radio 4 last night.
You guys smell blood and are determined to create the final chapter that sees Brown resign. The problem is the Labour Party has no history whatsoever of deposing its leaders.
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The "free press" are trapped by their own Pavlovian response. This is neither clever nor smart. Perhaps, the poor dears need a little help:
If you step back for a moment and witness the choices you are making as you make those choices, then in just this act of witnessing, you take the whole process from the unconscious realm into the conscious realm. This procedure of conscious choice-making and witnessing is
very empowering.
When you make any choice, any choice at all, you can ask yourself two things: First of all, What are the consequences of this choice that I'm making? In your heart you will immediately know what these are. Secondly, Will this choice that I'?m making now bring happiness to me and to those around me? If the answer is yes, then go ahead with that choice. If the answer is no, if that choice brings distress either to you or to those around you, then don't make that choice. It's as simple as that.
There is only one choice, out of the infinity of choices available in every second, that will create happiness for you as well as for those around you. And when you make that one choice, it will result in a form of behaviour that is called spontaneous right action. Spontaneous right action is the right action at the right moment. It's the right response to every situation as it happens. It's the action that nourishes you and everyone else who is influenced by that action.
-- The Seven Laws of Success, Deepak Chopra.
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152 icegillian,No I live in that wonderful land called Great Britain a country that I love and care about.
I'm afraid that you are one of these people who like to visit upon others their rather peculiar ideas about what they percieve as real life.
Your predictions of what will happen to the old and infirm in this country this winter is something that you will have to come to terms with in your own way perhaps with a little help from the medical profession.
I think that the rest of us will stick to reality and as we always do despite reports to the contrary, that is to look after our old and infirm.
I cant imagine that you will find many to support your theory that the government is hoping for as many of those unfortunates to die so that it will cut down on the money being laid out to support them, I think that like myself they would find those thoughts abhorrent, it will not and could not happen in Britain or in England as you put it.
I am sure that there are governments in the world that would advocate your theory but not this one.
You say
"Are you honestly thinking that any gov would pull out all the stops, no matter what the cost financially to help the general public?"
The government is elected by the people and the Labour party have a long and envied reputation for helping the old and infirm.
People generally in this country readily put their hands in their pockets to help the needy not only for those in this country but for those from many areas of the world.
You must live a very sad and disillusioned life you should get out and join some charitable organisation, it could change your outlook on your fellow human beings.
I might add that I'm quite old and a little infirm but the help and concern that I get does'nt in any way represent the situation that you are suggesting.
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163 Kenuwrwin I agree with you wholheartedly the trouble is that we live in a age where we have or I should say are expected to give our children/grandchildren gifts that are far out of reach of our benefits but we still foolishly spend beyond our means and then blame the government for not giving us enough, the mistake that the government made with the winter fuel allowance was and is, to pay it out just before Christmas and we all know were it is spent dont we, not on fuel but on little Janet and John, and their bored with whatever the get a few hours after they get it.
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164 and 165 Peteholly and Charles nice to read some thing that is not full of hatred spite and lies that we have been getting on these blogs from the Tories and the I'm not a Tory brigade. keep up the good work lads your posts are like an oasis in a vast desert of Tory rheteric.
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They kept quiet about this didn't they?
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U11714077's theory makes more sense every day.
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I just have a perspective, so anyone who's clinging to ideologies or partisan attitudes will find themselves on their own. Zen Buddhism is a matter of self-enlightenment.
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159 TAG You say that you are quite well then I'm pleased for you I hope my little ouch helped with your recovery.
Tag there is no way that you would have agreed with my assertion thats pretty obvious, if you need evidence of my assertion just read through your many posts over the last couple of months or so, There is certainly no evidence of you even remotely being a humble man in them, so that knocks that theory on the head.
I have reached a point in life were I have read all the books that I'm going to read, I'm afraid that like newspaper columns books are only one mans/womans opinion and are certainly not to be accepted as gospel and generally are far from being so,
So no I wont read the books you recommend, if they had been recommended by someone who I felt deserved my respect then maybe I would have read them but if they support your rather misguided opinions then I'll pass.
You say that your opinions are based on you and your families experiences of life well strangely so are mine. I can only say that you and your family must have had a rather sad life if your posts are anything to go by, you have so much bitterness in you for every thing around you.
Unlike you I look around me and I like much of what I see ,I suppose that our opinions are like the glass that is either half full or half empty, I look for the good in life and find much, whereas you look for the good in life and find none.
I dont know why you worry about the future a few weeks ago you were predicting armageddon within a few months, if I had those thoughts I would be out living it up with Purpledogzzz who was of the same opinion.
If there is to be a change let it be for the better and the first step in that direction would be not to vote in a already disjointed Tory party which will bring no joy into our lives , unless you are a masochist.
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#164 and 164
Are the only lies and hatred evident on these blogs, the hatred of the daily lies emanating from the decaying fish carcass that is the Gordon Brown Government??
It's vile stench pervades every facet of normal working peoples lives and the taint of which will be impossibly difficult to remove for years to come.
Zen Master and others, go figure!!
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#172 grandantidote
As opposed to the abundance of joy in all of our lives, heaped upon us on a daily basis by the charitable Gordon Brown and his oh so considerate chums.
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ooh enough of the ZEN rubbish, Kiazen rubbish, and its continious improvement idology. Look your not going to train the masses on lies. So stop your bleeting optimistic views and land back on planet earth!
To the other Labour supporters, i was and did vote many times for Labour, stop banging on about the tories, get rid of that clown in office. Face the fact that you will be in opposition again, and go back to the roots you came from. If not disapear for good.
Dont take the public as fools and easy to micro-manage!
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The eighth circle of Hell in Dante's Divine Comedy seems a fitting place for the Nu-LieBore party. According to Wikipedia corrupt politicians are immersed in a lake of boiling pitch, which represents the sticky fingers and dark secrets of their corrupt deals.
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109. At 2:54pm on 05 Sep 2008, TheresOnly1Soupey wrote:
#7 - I completely agree with your point.
I am tired of hearing people moaning about fuel prices and energy prices and how much it's costing them when there is so much obvious wastage. Strangely the ones who moan the most are often the ones
I have been unaffected by the prices as I ensured that:-
a) My landlord fitted double glazing
b) I bought a small engine car
c) I installed a combination boiler and efficient heating system (using 22" pipes for the flow - unlike the corner cutting plumbers who will use 15" if they can get away with it)
d) A thermostat for the boiler control in the correct location
e) Radiators installed in the CORRECT location (under the windows to improve convection)
f) Sealant and draught excluders around doors where appropriate
g) Driving my car at efficient speeds on the motorway
h) Adding several switch timers for TV and other devices in the house.
All I have left to do is convert the car to LPG and buy a house with a loft so that I can insulate it.
It's called thinking ahead - it's not like we haven't had plenty of warning, it's been coming for a long time.
I guess there are 2 types of person in this world, those who just get on with it (Ants) and those who just lie on their backs and cry like babies always blaming someone else for the problems they have from NOT LISTENING (Grasshoppers).
The Government should only help those who really can't help themselves - not the moaning masses who just can't be bothered.
This has to be one of the most arrogant posts I have ever read.
Firstly, I am not one of the "moaning masses" as described above. I have a small car, use public transport, have double glazing, got a new combi boiler fitted last December.
But not everyone is so fortunate. My boiler cost £1400 to buy and fitted - paid for in cash before you start on the credit stuff!
LPG coversion is expensive. So is double glazing, but I did note that you have a LANDLORD who paid for this.
Energy prices are far in excess of what they should be, and if they continue to rise - which is almost a certainty in January, you are going to see the recession possibly deepen into a depression. People are already trying every measure they can to save money, but at every turn prices go up.
People like you appear to misunderstand economics. If people have no spare money, then they cannot spend it. That means retailers lose business and start laying off staff or reducing hours, which in turn stops them spending money. The Government suffers through reduced tax income.
Your venom would be better directed at a Government who has wasted billions on grandoise IT schemes and benefit payouts purely for political purposes.
For the cost of one of their IT schemes, almost every single home could be properly insulated. Many homes in the UK are ex-council properties built in the 50s and 60s and were poorly insulated.
But then, you want pensioners and disabled people to keep their "moaning mouths" shut.
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3 million households in the UK depend solely on benefits. (1 in 7 children)
We have had so much socialism from Nu Labour, everyone thinks the answer is more government help.
What we need is a lot less government, less benefits, fewer people employed in non jobs, and a lot more wealth creation.
Its speaks volumes that, after 63 qtrs of economic growth and the most lucrative period most of us can recall, nothing has been put aside for a rainy day.
However, did he get a reputation for prudence. Anyone remember?
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Apologies again for posting twice on the trot.
#7 A little exercise, or if this isn't possible, an extra sweater would enable the thermostats to be reduced to a more economical, and dare I say it, healthier level.
When will people understand that putting on an extra layer of clothes does not prevent pneumonia?
The high number of deaths in winter is due to respiratory illnesses, caused by damp air.
Damp air is caused by the cold. So people who cannot afford to heat their house stay warm with their ten extra jumpers, but then catch pleurisy or pneumonia from breathing in cold, damp air.
Some people - particularly pensioners - don't turn the thermostat down because they have switched the heating off!
But I suppose you think that is good for the environment, eh?
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Mark Easton echoes my suggestion that a small recession may be a good thing. I'm glad to see someone's paying attention. The egoists and vested interests should catch up soon enough.
Oh, happy day.
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174 Ilicopoleroro. Youv'e lost me mate.
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175 brownas2eyes, your post sounds like the scream of a rabbit when caught by a ferret and it stands about the same chance of returning to normality as you do.
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@182
hahahh
ferret, so you must have heard that sound before then?
Just as you said "returning to normality" well i have to submit that we as a nation and the Labour party are far from "normal" maybe the next time your Rabbiting you could take the blinkers off your horse, and walk.
But just like sheep you will continue to follow the headless cyclops as the shepard.
What will matter will be the next 4 months.
Enjoy it!
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#179 Neilsmall147
Please understand that respiratory diseases are caused by various viruses and germs which also grow in a hot atmosphere. On the one hand, a too cold and damp atmosphere is unhealthy, but conversely, excessive heat and lack of fresh air increase the growth of bacteria.
Unfortunately, some pensioners, especially those in homes for the elderly and nursing homes, are in a hot house atmosphere, with closed windows and lack of physical atmosphere. If you doubt this, pay a visit to a local institution and see if I'm correct.
I'm very concerned at the deaths of elderly people, and also people of any age, but being raised in the old way, I still believe the finest way is plenty of fresh air and a brisk walk - even if on a Zimmer frame. This last remark isn't made in jest. My aunt who is almost 100 drives her carers crazy as she insists on being escorted outside with her frame.
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#181 grandantidote
I referred to the final paragraph of your #172, which I've copied below.
....If there is to be a change let it be for the better and the first step in that direction would be not to vote in a already disjointed Tory party which will bring no joy into our lives , unless you are a masochist.....
My ironic/facetious point, call it what you will, was that under "El Gordo" the fat one, it has been quite some time since a large number of people have experienced much joy, and that, an alternative administration, of whatever political persuasion, surely won't get it as woefully wrong as Bliar and his successor.
Cameron or Clegg, either will do, the sooner the better.
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re: 182
Labour are ferrets.
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177 neil small we have heard so many cries of repairing the roof while the sun shines.
Well that applies to all of us if you didn't prepare for the future when things were good then its no good moaning now.
Landlords dont pay for car LPG conversions.
Your comments only go to prove that your a dyed in the wool Tory and your perception of the financial position that the country is in is heavily biased in that direction.
Never mind the country lets try and knock the Labour government
The only people on these blogs that have come out with your rheteric as below are you and your Tory friends who are wallowing satisfaction that the country is in recession for goodness sake button your lip and try to get behind whatever government is in power to help get us through this recession in the best way we can. When its over then we can fight over politics.
You say
"But then, you want pensioners and disabled people to keep their "moaning mouths" shut."
No one but you and your Tory friends have made that remark and one or the other of you keep repeating it, so I guess thats what you guys want.
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179 Neil Small Your second post is even more ill informed than your first.
You only have to contact your doctor to either visit you or you go to him were you will recieve a very small injection that will prevent flu for one year and if over 65 another one to protect you from pneumonia for ten years I've had both the one every year.
I have also had both pneumonia and pleurisy when I was quite young and that was in the middle of summer.
I spent two years in hospital with that and the main part of the cure for both that and TB is to sleep and live in a house or ward were the windows are wide open night and day winter and summer, so wise up before you open you mouth.
You have no idea what your talking about.
You know the old saying, what you know about pensioners could be written on the back of a postage stamp ,what you dont know would fill a library, it applies to you in this instance quite admirably.
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175 brownhas2eyes.
"..To the other Labour supporters, i was and did vote many times for Labour, stop banging on about the tories,"
The path tying to intimidate the wise CEH is a foolish one to follow. You cannot win, his wisdom is far greater than yours. Yes he is a Labour supporter(Or his he?), and I sort of lean towards Labour(Or do I?) we and our allies against the scurge of internet whingers, are allowed to have opinions. Interesting you tell to stop banging on about the tories. On this Website of all places which contains mostly discontented with labour but not Conservatives(or are they?) supporters bleeting about labour. Double standards do not do your case any favours.
Cameron the man who shouts insults and hides behind the media and his army of sypathetic Internet geeks who spend their time doing things like putting 'hilarious' PMQs videos on YouTube.
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187. grandantidote wrote:
Ref: goodness sake button your lip and try to get behind whatever government is in power to help get us through this recession in the best way we can. When its over then we can fight over politics.
I like that, so much in fact Ive saved it to quote back to you in 2010.
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#187 grandantidote
Do you honestly think that the anti Labour, pro Tory contributors here are wallowing in satisfaction that the country is gripped by recession or about to be?
My efforts here are as anti Labour as anyone, motivated by the simple fact that Gordon Brown, and before him, Tony Blair and various Cabinets have lied, spun and mis-managed throughout their tenures. The upshot of which, is that the entire country has suffered due to their appalling failures.
With luck, their forthcoming massacre at the next General Election will consign them and the next Labour generation to the politicial wilderness for years to come.
I would be happy to qualify my appalling failures statement with their "rap sheet"
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178 carrots need a quango
We should make people unemployed who are in jobs you see as non-jobs. have less people on benefits. and magic up some other jobs for these people with jobs that annoy you should do.
So you think this government is a self serving group of MPs who help people too much.
I'm sorry but I'm confused What is Government for if its not to help people? You must be an anarchist.
Lets save for a rainy day and patch up the problem, or should we fix the roof when the sun shines? or should we sell the family silver of the utilities for short term gain? No somebody already done that who could have been that stupid?
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Nu-Labour do nothing and mope
While the voters string up the rope,
Their punishment's due
So let's bid them adieu,
Even Toynbee has given up hope!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#193 pttp
Not only an apposite limerick, but containing a link! I'm impressed.
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Brown's Premiership and the Labour government are dead. What we have now - and possibly until 2010 - is a scorched-earth policy by the living dead.
Meanwhile, I still think we should make a one-off winter fuel payment to all pensioners funded by canceling the London 2012 Olympic Games. (Half the savings alone should do the job. The other half, of course, should be returned to taxpayers from whence it came).
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#196 MaxSceptic
Very sensible, humane and practical. That's why this government wont do it!
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194 Tag so i'm rather gutless am I and your a real hero for revealing your name if you were sitting were I am and read those words you would begin to realise what a really stupid man you are.
So what your saying is that every body on here with a pseudonym is gutless lets see now thats probably 96% of us so by that reckoning you probably deserve a medal for your stupidity by revealing your name.
When I signed up for these blogs I was asked to give a pseodonym the one I choose had not the slightest significance but they offered me the one I have now which for no hidden reason I accepted.
we are all constantly told on everything on the internet not to disclose your name as I know from my own experience their are nutters out there.
So revealing your name and perhaps your address you are not being a gutsy person in your vernicular your are just being a stupid person.
Having got that cleared up I will move onto the rest of your defeatist remarks.
I could be a committee of morons as you say but I think if one was to read back through our respective posts I think that you would beat me hands down in a competion for a position in that committee.
you say that you will ignore my shallow remarks, thats fine, I on a daily basis ignore your rather deep and disturbing remarks but very occasionally I am stung into responding so I am quite happy that you ignore what you consider to be my shallow remarks it was never my intention to set up a dialogue with you anyway.
If you can find anything in my comments to you that should have been moderated please put them up I would love to see what you consider offensive after all the appalling statements you make on these blogs.
I dont think that the moderaters think your made of sterner stuff I just think that they have sussed you out as one of the blog bullies and are pleased that someone is standing up to you. goodbye for now.
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The Government's responsibility is to protect and care for it's citizens.
The fact is that fuel rises of the size we have seen are going to bring severe hardship to the very poor. The Government must help these people. It is a simple as that. Forget the rest of us we'll muddle through and pay but some people do need help.
Forget this Windfall Tax.........it's just a left wing anti-capitalist rouse ( more competition is needed in this sector). The real issue is the Government coming up with the money to help the very poor. They found £2.7B at the drop of a hat for the Crewe bye-bye Gordon election, £600M for a stamp duty holiday and £Billions for the Iraq war and even more Billions wasted on Quangos and failed policies. But they don't want to find the money necessary to help the very poor pay higher fuel bills............many of whom live a day to day existence.........It's simply obscene and unfair and proves the Government doesn't really care about the very poor in society depsite the rhetoric. Would they rather them beg for assistance or sit in the cold throughout the coming winter?
It's time for Gordon to go and a new Government to take charge. But would Cameron have the guts to tell the people the truth?............that there will not be any increases in Government expenditure on the NHS and Education until the books have been balanced and taxes reduced. It's time for a Government spendng moratorium for the next 5 years with spending only on essential public services and benefits. It's time for tax cuts to stimulate the economy and to reward hard work.
There are some really hard choices and decisions ahead for any Government but it's going to take the application of a resolutely Thatcherite remedy to get us back on the right track over the next few years...........is there a lipstick pitbull in our midst who can take the country forward to a period of sound money and a Government surplus?
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183 brownas2eyes. yes i have heard that sound bfore once when moored on the river Seine at night but I think it was a weasel rather than a ferret and once while moored on the river Fal in Cornwall were I actually saw a mink catch and kill a rabbit it was not a pretty site but life goes on ,not for the rabbit of course
By the way you dont chase rabbits on horseback or didn't you know that,
your last but one sentence is almost as appalling as you.
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Has anybody else noticed that there have been no government announcements with regard to the floods which are effecting Team GB at the moment.
Could it be that they are so frit of being asked about Gordon Brown and the criticisms of him that they dare not come on to the media.
Compare and contrast with when Gordon the Great took over with last years disasters. Foot and Mouth, Floods, Gordon was everywhere, where is he today, surely not in his bunker.
Mind you Gordon we feel your pain, just like you feel ours. Hope your home is warm and dry.
I have to ask if these people live in areas which are now being regularly flooded would it not be better to just evacuate them and put them somewhere else, permanentl. The insurance must be astronomical and why should taxpayers pay for flood defences which will result in the value of the effected homes being increased, at my expense.
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186ppl, Just one word, idiot.
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190 carrots needquangoes Thankyou I look forward to reading it.
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192. dhwilkinson
Sorry your confused. Ive simplified the equation:
Tax, waste and squander and failure to save.. equals.. No winter fuel allowance for the poor.
Just one example of superb government below
Wonder how many pensioners in Liverpool this would have saved.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2689263/Council-finance-chief-Phil-Halsall-to-leave-with-500000-golden-handshake.html
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191 ILicipolero you do that then I will give you a rap sheet of all their successes and for good measure I will add a rap sheet of all the Tory failings, looks like i will have to do a lot more writing than you eh!
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192. dhwilkinson
No money to help save a few pensioners from the cold but we can do this:
Non job of the week
http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/job/708889/head-of-participation-and-inclusion/
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197 pheonixarison, Thats why no government would do it, I gave you more credit than that Pheonix.
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203. grandantidote
LOL
Not as much as I will enjoy sending it
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Maybe when Labour are booted out the hypnosis will wear off and the red flag wavers might start talking some sense.
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192. dhwilkinson
Mind you if you have 1.5 million pounds for this, I guess you can afford it.
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Oops missed off the link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/7599960.stm
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Calm down grandantidote, I am afraid that at the rate you are going you will burst a blood vessel.
I hope that others realise that I have previously been moderated out so will be extraordinarily careful about what I say.
Let us consider our media correspondents who do not reveal their sources, are so many people afraid as being revealed as a source. I think that the media must not print any comment without attributing it, it may just stop the speculation about Brown. If you have a view give it and don't be afraid to say what you believe. However, you have to be careful about breaching any court injunctions, or our libel laws.
Is this not one of the problems with society today, so many people have been kow-towed into silence. I am beginning to fear for our freedom of speech.
Gordon Brown and his government are no longer fit for purpose, they are no longer a government, they are a dead government.
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211 carrots...
I've seen that spider thing. it looks great. 1.5 million isn't a lot of money in government terms and may add more to that by people visiting to see adding to the local economy. The trouble is your typical conservative voter. Thinks the government is for sitting back and doing as little as possible and telling all its wealthy overlords what a good boy its been by not spending any money, and by not doing so the country starts to fall apart.
Saving up for a rainy day sounds like patching up problems instead of preventing them. There is a much more to goverment than sitting back and counting money.
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209 power...
I have a slight difficulty in believing people like you who say you are neutral while pushing so hard for a massive conservative majority. If you all admitted it and pushed us off, this site would become using public funds to promote a political party. Is that the reason? It might be why none of you ever talk about Dave and his Chums. Luckily I don't give a monkeys what you think. As long as you believe what you say. You stick with it. Don't let anyone harass you into changing your mind.
212 T A Griffin
The moderators prevent the nasty element of this blog from showing its true colours. be thankful for that.
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re: wilky
Saving up for a rainy day sounds like patching up problems instead of preventing them.
Lol
There is a much more to goverment than sitting back and counting money.
There certainly is. But Labour have done little else.
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#207 Grandantidote
Missed you during your long silence whilst Nick was away. You must have forgotten what I told you once. I am so old, probably even older than you, and in all my years I have only seen politicians promise the earth and then serve up ashes (can't write the word more fitting)!
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Britain Today.
What Democracy ?
Democracy, Democracy that enigmatic lie.
From the dictionary it ought to be deleted
Whilst democracy?s the slogan that politicians cry
The majority of us feel that we?ve been cheated
With political correctness forced upon us every day
Just in case the casual word may cause offence
If you have a strong opinion be careful what you say
Even though you may be talking perfect sense
When we joined the E.E.U. I?m sure we took the view
It would give a larger market for our trade
Yet now our mighty nation has a legal obligation
To abide by regulations Brussels made
The referendum was denied, the politicians lied
These decisions were decided by the few
It was no doubt understood, M.Ps thought it would be good
With a total disregarding of our view
MP?s pull out all the stops to try to fill our shops
With G.M foods that we don?t want to eat
Whilst cameras check our speed on roads where there?s no need
We?d be better off with coppers on the beat
If confronted by a crook and you land a good right hook
You may think that he deserved it, it?s his fault
When he is on probation you?ll be locked up down the station
To appear before a jury for assault
When travellers leave a mess, you?d be spot on if you guess
That authorities will turn an eye that?s blind
Yet drop a fag end in the street and before it hits your feet
You will get an instant ticket and be fined
If asylums what you seek and English you can?t speak
Benefits are paid for your welfare
But if your British and your old, your property is sold
To pay for any time you are in care
If you chastise your child, because he has run wild
That law will on your collar give a tug
For no matter what you say, do-gooders rule the day
Even though the child may grow into a thug
In the interest of fair play referendums are the way
The majority decide just where we go
We shouldn?t change our laws or take part in futile wars
To massage a political ego
When we are due a big election, parties vie for our affection
Promising the things they have in store
It fair gives us the hump, they should take a running jump
They must realise we?ve heard it all before.
It is hard to understand who governs our fair land
Or who it is that makes up all our rules
Our politicians bore us, or totally ignore us
Democracy in Britain! It?s for fools!!.
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re: 214
Carrots presented you with quite a strong case, but I see you have conveniently chosen to ignore it. That's the Nu-Labour way.
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#217 igiveup 2
I seriously felt quite sad reading this indictment on life here today. So many things you wrote exist. I won't state here what I found especially relevant or the moderators will be after me again. But, please remember one thing. Winston Churchill wasn't perfect, as anyone who knows of the General Strike in 1926 will agree. But, apart from his wonderful leadership in World War II, he said something very relevant to our lives in a democracy. I will quote loosely on what he said, "Democracy isn't perfect, but it's better than all the others, and the best we have." Whatever political views we have, no matter who we are, we should cherish and defend democracy, because the alternative is too terrible to contemplate.
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216 pheonixarisen, yes I do remember swapping a few posts with you , dont remember the specifics or how old you are I will be 78 in a few months feels like 98 some days.
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185 ILicipolero,
you say
"My ironic/facetious point, call it what you will, was that under "El Gordo" the fat one,
There you've lost your credibility.Goodbye!
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204,206 carrots and 218 pttppl
Hello I gather you want me to justify some newspaper clipping you've found or something.
Oh yes the non-jobs thing. Well I've looked at it and it appears to be a job about disabled and disadvantaged to play music. Music builds confidence and helps with a childs education. Imagine the financial benefits to the country of that! You would have to be a fairly miserable individual to be against that. You do have to wade through a lot of management speak though but the job seems ok. I'm no expert of course.
there you go. Not such a nasty Liberal lefty am I. Thanks.
Oh wait theres another one. You do make us liberal leftys work hard. I can't stomach reading the telegraph at the moment. I will just say. That spider is part of the capital of culture. You can't just say that and put nothing on. The capital of culture which our town lost out on, attracts visitors and their money. So is an investment which means you spend money to make money. Your not very keen on art and music are you. You want to give it a go. It might cheer you up. No more please. thanks.
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Winston Churchill also said, "First you build your house, then your house builds you". Philosophically, this is a useful comment on archery versus Zen archery. The bullish and personal attacks are typical of the Tories - authoritarian and selfish. Labour is more akin to form and balance, which is why there's more focus on policy and cooperation.
When George Osborne had an opportunity to discuss his economic policy in the papers, his essay was scrappy and finger wagging, and as poor as anything a schoolboy would rush out to meet a deadline. David Cameron has a lot of talk but little stamina, which is why his ego blows up like a balloon at PMQ's and he has no empathy with folks outside his members only club.
Historically, the British are tub thumping and insular. They have no concept of leadership and cooperation which is why Britain has no world class products and folks get smashed at the weekend. The underlying trends are towards the practical and social, and quality and relevance, but the Tory obsession with authority and greed reflects how alien this is to their real agenda.
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Hmmm.... "There's no fool like an old fool"
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re: 222
You evaded the real point being made: that people are freezing to death because the government have no money, yet they can afford to muck about with a giant spider and pay 40 grand for a nothing-job that only exists for political motives (ie the much-loathed political correctness). Even you must be able to see that the money could be spent more wisely.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#223 CEH
"When George Osborne had an opportunity to discuss his economic policy in the papers, his essay was scrappy and finger wagging,"
You are way above me, but I see you are into fingers, i.e. body language. Postings appear with boring regularity mocking Gordon Brown's finger nail biting and the way he moves his hands. What is your philosophical theory about these manifestations?
Sorry if this posting is rubbish, but I'm feeling very tired, and so to bed.
Goodnight all!
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#205 grandantidote
I would have responded earlier but I was elsewhere photographing a football match.
To be fair, perhaps Balance Sheet would have been a better description than "rap sheet" Whatever, I think you might be surprised my friend, on current form it would be a pretty lop-sided Labour pluses/minuses list. Unfortunately, right now folk are having to deal on a daily basis with numerous policy blunders.
#221 grandantidote
I was a little suprised someone of your mature years, wisdom and obvious debating ability didn't quote the entire lower half of my #185 and attempt to refute
Oh well not to worry. Good night it has been quite enjoyable disagreeing with you
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224 septic max now I wonder who that post was aimed at
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"There is a much more to goverment than sitting back and counting money.
There certainly is. But Labour have done little else."
So do you think they have been hoarding the money or spending to much? Is there too much government because you suggest there isn't enough and they are holding on to taxes.
224 MaxSeptic
In retaliation for your nasty ageist wind up. I would like to retaliate by saying that Man made Global warming is destroying the planet. Stick that in your carbon capture pipe and smoke it.
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re: 230
So do you think they have been hoarding the money or spending to much?
They have been more than happy to increase taxation by devious means but hospitals are still dirty, education is a mess, the economy's dreadful, there has been no improvement in public services etc etc.
That the government have steadily increased taxes and squandered the money on the unwanted ID card scheme, war, failed IT projects and all their politically-correct rubbish etc is irrefutable. But they can always justify their exorbitant expenses--- which party voted against the expenses reforms again?
They have been in office too long to have an excuse. They must go.
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187. At 2:57pm on 06 Sep 2008, grandantidote wrote:
177 neil small we have heard so many cries of repairing the roof while the sun shines.
grandantidote:
Don't patronise me. If you read my post correctly you will know fine well I was referring to your double glazing, not your LPG conversion. I'm not that stupid.
And don't dare start using this blog to start firing insults. Leave the schoolboy stuff to the politicians. If you want to keep insulting people, go to HYS forum.
For your information, I voted Labour in the two previous elections. I am what is classed as the "floating voter". I'll criticise any political party. But I vote for the one who I think will deliver.
Labour has failed to deliver. Not on all counts to be fair, and they cannot be held responsible for everything that happens.
The energy prices have to be a concern. Guaranteed that all the prices will rocket come January again.
The Government needs to do something because the economy is going to be affected. Sure they will get more VAT returns, but what about other areas? Tie the energy prices into the "credit crunch", you have a recipe for disaster. There are people on lower incomes, without any debts, don't smoke/drink/buy plasma tv's who are now trying to figure out how they will pay all their bills.
Labour are in charge. They have to do something. The average person will blame them for inaction, and that will cost them dearly at the next election.
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188. At 3:21pm on 06 Sep 2008, grandantidote wrote:
179 Neil Small Your second post is even more ill informed than your first.
You only have to contact your doctor to either visit you or you go to him were you will recieve a very small injection that will prevent flu for one year and if over 65 another one to protect you from pneumonia for ten years I've had both the one every year.
I have also had both pneumonia and pleurisy when I was quite young and that was in the middle of summer.
I spent two years in hospital with that and the main part of the cure for both that and TB is to sleep and live in a house or ward were the windows are wide open night and day winter and summer, so wise up before you open you mouth.
You have no idea what your talking about.
Well, I've now had about enough patronising insults. I know a fair bit about lung diseases. I've had a collapsed one for a start (12 months off work). During that time, cold, damp air would affect my breathing.
Where do you live? The SE by any chance?
Come up to Scotland where the air is damp. Opening a window in mid-winter where I live will give you hypothermia with the wind chill factor alone. As for flu jabs, they do not always work, and are not always suitable for everyone.
You are very good at insulting just about anyone who dares to disagree with you. Are you a retired politician by chance?
Convince me why the Government should not fund a building insultation programme in the UK. My house is ok, but I do think about others, something you apparently don't do. Never mind "people should do things for themselves" arguments. Give an economic reason why it is a bad idea.
At worst it would be good for the environment.
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dhwilkinson
"In retaliation for your nasty ageist wind up. I would like to retaliate by saying that Man made Global warming is destroying the planet. Stick that in your carbon capture pipe and smoke it."
Because the IPCC says so, doesn't make it a fact. Their documents are political papers, based on some of the scientific opinion submitted.
Their documents indicate that warming is followed by a rise in carbon dioxide - Al Gore's tendentious film suggested the opposite.
The Medieval Warm Period was certainly not preceded by huge industrial or personal CO2 emission.
I'm all in favour reducing emissions and introducing renewable energy supplies. Wind is a pretty costly, fairly inefficient and variable source.
But don't assume that, even with a zero industrial/personal output of CO2 that warming won't happen. The climate is always changing, for one reason or another. Otherwise we'd have to share our space with dinosaurs!
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223 CEH
You appear to have reverted back to your old ways when in your postings over the last few days you have been positive but now reverted back.
The essence of British politics has been government and opposition, Labour is Government whether we like it or not. It is opposition's job to challenge and moderate. It is the electorate job to vote once an election is called.
George Osbourne is the opposition and he is doing his job of challenging and moderating. The opposition need to have one plan, to take power from the ruling party by the votes from the electorate, the electorate only vote when the ruling party feels it's right or run out of time. Until that time no need for the opposition to detail policy.
In previous postings of mine you will see I have advocated fixed term Parliaments of 4 years. Which I belive would lead to less confrontational policies, more consensus from ministers. Also the PM should server no more than two terms, (how the parties elect them is up to them).
In the last thirty years we have had 2 Prime Ministers that at after 8 or 9 years lost touch with the public, the main reason from both they after this time had surrounded them selves with yes men/women and believed everything they did without being challenged.
Without doubt the electorate lost faith and trust and voted with their feet by apathy and lack of interest. What we have now is minority government with large majority's not good my concern is where do we go from here.
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Governments always feel the need to tinker. With the burden of EU legislation and regulations, businesses have quite enough to do trying to keep "legitemate" without more local imposts.
Most "rights" legislation may have some justification. But this government - focused on public sector and big business - always forgets the impact on smaller concerns.
Official stats show that Small and Medium size Enterprises employ 59percent of all private sector employees. And they produce 51percent of private turnover.
But they are faced with the same need to address "flexible working" requests, "maternity/paternity" rules, etc as a department of state.
Daft - isn't it?
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232 neil small I promise that I wasn't trying to patronise you if I did then it was unintentional, the LPG thing was perhaps a little nasty.
You a are getting a little mixed up, you weren't refering to my double glazing or LPG you were answering "There's only one soupey and if I may be permitted to say that this statement below is hardly the epitome of decorum, now is it?
"This has to be one of the most arrogant posts I have ever read."
you said that to him and you criticise me.
Now you've been on these blogs long enough to to know that its "Dog eat dog" on here if you dont fight back they will tear you to pieces, so please dont give me
"And don't dare start using this blog to start firing insults. Leave the schoolboy stuff to the politicians"
All these three blogs although following the general theme of the thread, they are mostly inhabited by one or the other trying to insult the other while keeping within the bounds of the moderaters.
If I had broke those rules in my post to you then they would have been removed, so I can only repeat that old cliche"if you cant stand the heat stay out of the kitchen".
To get to the points that you have made
I was obviously unaware that you had a collapsed lung so on that point I apologise.
As stated earlier I spent two long years in hospital and another year out of work, I live in Wales not quite as cold as Scotland but equally as damp.
My desription of the hospital that I was in is absolutly accurate, windows and doors open wide winter and summer my bed was adjacent to a set of french doors and my bed during winter was often lightly covered with snow.
This treatment was the same on all four wards of this small chest hospital.
I have central heating installed now but seldom use it, my personal opinion is that there are more diseases spread through central heating than anything else.
As for flu jabs they work in 99% of cases I have had them for about twenty years and have never had flu once since then,
unfortunately many people have this fear of injections and this is a tiny one, it could cost them there lives you dont have to be over 65 if you have any history of chest complaints you are entitled, if there is a surplus of these injections anyone can get them.
I think that you will find that the government have brought in a scheme just recently , mentioned somwhere on these blogs for insulating homes.
You say that I am good at insulting people well my friend I do have the type of nature that I dont suffer fools gladly but even at this late stage in my life I have learnt on these blogs its eat or be eaten,
Finally for heavens sake dont believe all the Tory bloggers propagander that people are freezing to death through this government if it were the eighties or nineties when the Tories used to give us £10 only if the temerature was below freezing for 7 consecutive days then that was true but not anymore .in fact I am not absolutely sure but I think that it is now illegal for the fuel companies to cut off fuel supplies to anyone over 65 no matter what and I think also some other groups. good luck with the chest.
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Now look I want you all to read this because it is very important. No, keep reading this is, important.
I have just seen ed Balls on the Andrew Marr Show and, now this is important, we have been letting the conservatives have it too much their own way. Now do you see how important this is.
Now, I have to say that he was very confident, very confident indeed. Labour can win this election, notice this election, not the election which must be held within the next 18 months.
If this is what we can expect then we really can abandon all hope. If Darling can only say that we are 'pissed off' with labour, and that Hope can say of Charles Clarke, 'shutup' then this is terrible. Now this is imprtant, says Balls, well yes it is, only like the British presence in Iraq, labour is now the problem and will never be the solution. Like the retreat from Basra, and the long Napoleonic retreat from Moscow, it is time to call it a day.
A government of national unity is what is needed, as Balls admits, and I have been saying for some time, we are facing a credit crunch the like of which has not seen since the 1930's.
We are facing the worst situation since that time in the current crop of politicians in parliament are not going to be able to prevent it happening. There have been other Great Depressions and they cannot be avoided, there was and always will be 'boom and bust'.
Now, wasn't that important. Watch the way the politicians hold their hands, its a church, a very broad church, and Gordon is the worst sort of paternalistic despot.
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Stable government and simplicity can be helpful, but winning for the sake of winning and finger wagging are still lurking around behind those comments. The positions are just gloss for an emotional subtext.
You folks do realise this government has done a lot to push things through that people wanted by consensus, and refactored whole chunks of law? But, that doesn't fit with the "authoritarian" and "out of touch" propaganda.
I'm no particular fan of multi-party "democracy". It just encourages tribalism, nosiness, and waffle. Less competitive behaviour, or "positioning" and "populism", would help at a fundamental level. That's not a governance or party issue, that's a personal issue.
I've read both the Data Protection Act and Human Rights Act. Both are sound pieces of law in themselves but business, regulators, and public aren't on the same page. And that's "oppositionists" and "the burdened" for you: they screw themselves.
There's numbers kicking around for the explosion and use of new and redefined words, and crime relative to the historical trend. The underlying cause is too much competitive behaviour or clinging. Britain seriously needs to hit the chill pill.
You can't make any decision while you're wound up or emotionally raging. "Calm" doesn't sound much of a plan but it has to happen before anything else. Folks want complicated stuff and instant solutions but that's just habit and neediness.
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#238
One point I think which you ignore is that it is not the Tories, nor is it labour, that gives you any money. It is the impoverished taxpayer, it is my money, and the money taken from other taxpayers which enables you to maintain your vitriole.
So, in a dog eat dog world, which you seem to enjoy, then so be it. Don't expect the taxpayer to bail you out for ever and a day.
By the way I live on a small modest private income and have lived as though I was poor most of my life. So, why should I pay any tax at all, so that many people who actually are in receipt of money greater than my own effectively get money from me through an appalling tax system.
Merge health and social services. Abolish national insurance after merging it with income tax, abolish capital gains tax and treat all gains as income, and bring back the poll tax but call it local income tax.
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That just feeds the monster. Seriously, calming down and taking a break is the only solution if it starts bugging you. Posting with a rigid and reactive mind is just beating yourself up. It's why parliament, internal party squabbles, and protestors lose the plot on an everyday basis.
Good form (structure like paragraphs) and tone (ditching the "telephone voice") stops you looking like an ass or imploding under the (self) imposed pressure. Content is just more readable and accessible. Plus, order, harmony, and patience are good for self-development anyway.
The BBC is addicted to headlines (taking a pro Brown union position and rewriting it as anti-Brown propoganda), and Polly Toynbee is stuck in steam politics and doesn't get subtlety and indirectness. Who looks more stupid? Am I bovvered? Uh, no.
What goes around comes around, etcetera.
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"I'm no particular fan of multi-party "democracy". It just encourages tribalism, nosiness, and waffle."
Sorry Charles I have to disagree with you here. Your comment seems a little bizarre considering the plight of the people of tibet under the rule of the single party Chinese. If we were all nicer less egotisc people it might work. your comment seems like a Nice one but a little to dim to me. Our self righteous brothers could make mincemeat out that one.
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dhwilkinson
I agree the spider was great and well worth the money regardless. Id have it roaming he country for months.
If Brown had been any where near prudent then we could do this as well and as ease taxation right now to help the poor.
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dhwilkinson
You read the Non job advert as any typical socialist would do. Is it a good idea.. Yes of course it is, then we must have it now.
The question you and other socialists dont ask; Is this a current priority and can we afford it now or should we look at it later.
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What I would like to see is an end to politics at local level.
Why? Because most of the councillors are tied to their party's whip. So national issues become embroiled in local ones.
I may be wrong here, but were councillors many years (decades?) ago people who were generally successful in whatever career, and decided to give something back to the community?
A councillor is not a difficult job. OK, screws your social life up and you have to meet some unsavoury individuals, but nothing too stressful.
The only time that political parties seem to work together is during times of severe crisis or war. Even then, many of them are looking after number one.
Ed Balls is a classic example. He surely has ambitions to lead Labour, so we get this calm, confident approach. Yet look to his recent past and he behaves like a two year old during a Parliament debate! And he would like to represent the UK?
Labour would do well to get away from the infighting and start dealing with real concerns. Flooding is now the priority, but I see little evidence of any Government concern. Yes, I'm quite sure they are doing something, but why not visibly? Give the people some confidence, rather than this "I'll keep quiet in case someone gets upset" approach. Someone go and bangs some heads together. No one will criticise a minister for appearing on tv and stating what the Government is doing.
Labour is doing exactly what the Conservatives did at the end of their last administration. And it's sad, because politicians once more care only about themselves, rather than those they were elected to represent.
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dhwilkinson
The Nu Labour model is broken, and just like every other Labour government it will go leaving the country in total financial chaos.
You can not, during a period of sustained economic growth, tax a country to the limit, pay for huge infrastructure projects by way of PFIs, and increase debt. You at least have to pay off the overdraft. You would do it as an individual.
The Golden Rules have run away with prudence
From the Times. When Brown was electioneering, he claimed Quangos were a waste of money and promised us a "bonfire" Read on.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3953922.ece
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following on from my comment 243.
Sometimes people with strong religeon like Charles and other beliefs tend be a bit naive. Seeing the best in humanity is no bad thing. I appologize if I've shown disrespect in my former comment.
We do need democracy, it is a good thing but only if it works properly and favours the whole country. Not this first past the post system that leads to tactical voting and is not a true reflection on society.
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The electorate's awfully tired
Of everything Labour's conspired,
Fixated on class,
Detested en masse,
In May 2010 they'll be fired!
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28 Jonathon Cook, are you so thick that you dont understand that when you sell a nationalised industry at knock down prices as the Tories did in the eighties and nineties.
Even in their death throes they rushed through the sale of the railways at I might add great cost to the country.
Then to hope to buy them back after all the money that had been raised on these industries had disappeared.
Where do you think Tony and Gordon were going to get the money to buy them back at obviously inflated prices.
No your not that thick you merely used that rather worn out and rather stupid remark to try to score points, fortunately everyone that read it knew that was nonsense.
I have noticed Jonathon that you posts are becoming more and more abrasive by the day not only abrasive but quite nasty and spiteful.
I used to think that Septic Max was the most offensive person on here closely followed by ptppl but of late you are starting to over take them.
Both you and ppl do add something to the thread even if in ppl case its a odd sort of humour whereas Sceptic Max is a ambush predator he adds nothing but hate and sits reading these blogs waiting for anyone to show a chink in their armour then he strikes..
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DHW
You called me a tory. Perhaps I am now.
Much more importnat is that I have voted for labour 3 times in the last 3 elections.
I have now seen what socialism brings and I want no more.
Its a big club.
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grandantidote @229,
If the hat fits....
dhwilkinson @230,
You are soooo out of date with current trendy environmentalist terminology: this week it's called 'climate change'.
(You do, however, get brownie points for disagreeing publicly - and correctly - with that pompous, prolix, windbag Chuck).
Sorry I can't stop - I'm off to shoot a pesky moose with my newest heroine, Sarah Palin.
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244 and 245 carrotsneedaquango2
You talk about added value to the economy. For both the cases for the Capital of culture, music job and some people say the Olympics. you need to look at the Bigger picture.
Your music job helps build confidence in children. improving their educational prospects therefore making better economic units for our wealth creation and that.
The culture festival. attracts people in the short term with their money and in the long term may make people think of tourism outside London in this country. Maybe providing tourism money in the future. This will be quite difficult to measure. but it will have some impact.
Some people say we should cancel the olympics. The olympic bid is now about long term infrastructure improvement as well as just the 2 weeks. It provides inspiration for people to take up sport for fun and fitness adding to the overall wellbeing and raising the spirits of the nation. maybe improving their productivity. Who knows?
Their is also the non capitalist profit of being a less dreary depressing place obsessed with complaining about things. That has got to be worth the money.
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Single party rule is no different to no-party rule. They're both the same thing. Multi-party systems fit somewhere in the middle. Mostly, it's all window dressing.
Folks may like to reflect on quality, essence, Tao, or the oneness of everything. Dualism, delusion, or ego, just gets in the way of the experience. So, it's better to have no opinion.
There's eye popping red faces straining on all sides of this one. Tub thumping over principles and going "Whoa, dude" at the crowds, they just get themselves in a funk. Why worry?
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252 maxsceptic
So are you american or in america or are you flying out especially.
You're an environment fascist dude! You people make me blow chunks!
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Following on...
I'm neither naive nor soft. I know how things tick and can be ruthless. Velvet glove, iron fist.
God, or devil. Who knows. ;-)
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#250
It's getting worse. You now resort to calling people 'thick'. You seem to want to live in 'dog eat dog' world on the internet.
Well sorry, but some of us are really made of sterner stuff.
You fail to respond to comments which point out how it is the taxpayer #241 who enables you to live with enough time to contribute to Nick's Blog. Mind you your comments are interesting, they tell me that I, and others like me, are more representative than you and your kind care to admit.
I really do wonder how you are able to circumvent the rules! It seems one law for the likes of yourself and a different one for the likes of myself. I wouldn't mind but I thought that the moderators were obliged to send the reasons as to why a comment was removed, so that it could be amended to conform to the rules.
Don't forget, Gordon Brown is an Aspidistra, an in joke, read the comments, now that is important!
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Ed Balls' performance on Marr
Was just like his party's: sub-par,
He ducked and he dived
As he helplessly strived
To convince us things aren't as they are.
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dhwilkinson @255,
No, I'm not American (Tthough I have great admiration for the American nation and people).
I am very 'middle England'.
Does 'blowing chunks' hurt?
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259. MaxSceptic
Is chunks American then ?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
241 Tag
You say
One point I think which you ignore is that it is not the Tories, nor is it labour, that gives you any money. It is the impoverished taxpayer, it is my money, and the money taken from other taxpayers which enables you to maintain your vitriole.
So, in a dog eat dog world, which you seem to enjoy, then so be it. Don't expect the taxpayer to bail you out for ever and a day.
Yes I do receive a pension in the same way that everyone does when they retire I believe its called living in a social society I am sure some one will correct me but you get the gist
We all pay taxes in order to help one and other, there are no impoverished tax payers you pay what you are deemed to be able to afford unless your fortunate enough to put yourself into a higher income bracket which unfortunately I have never been able to do but I say that without envy, I have lived a good life with very few regrets. your remarks about supporting my vitriol are typical TAG and shall be treated as such.
Living in a dog eat dog world is your expression not mine.
I said" Now you've been on these blogs long enough to to know that its "Dog eat dog" on here if you dont fight back they will tear you to pieces,"
So please dont tell me that I seem to enjoy it, it was meant as a criticism of the situation not praise for it.
Finally I have never in my life asked anybody to bail me out and you as a impoverished taxpayer with a huge chip on his shoulder would never under any circumstances be the one that I would ask for help the price would be far to high.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It was on a U rated film sharkboy and lavagirl in 3D.
Sounds about the right level for somebody who still supports Labour.
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264. dhwilkinson
LOL
Blow is another US term you might want to look up.
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265. power_to_the_ppl
The film tells the story of a 10-year-old named Max, who is burdened by school bullies and quarreling parents. He makes up two superhero friends, Sharkboy and Lavagirl, who are "real" and come and find Max in order to take him back to their home, Planet Drool, which is in danger. Most of the villains are really people in Max's real life. Much of the film deals with the conflict between fantasy (the dreamworld) and reality.
The film performed modestly at the box office, and won little praise from critics.
Remind you of anyone ?
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257TAG
What a silly impatient man you are turning out to be.
Unlike you I do have other things going on in my life
Read paragraph three then you will be enlightened if thats possible I do feel that its not very likely.
You keep saying that your made of sterner stuff, sounds like a inherent insecurity to me.
As you will see 262 I have responded to your [until now I hadn't realised what were meant to be offensive] remarks. I fail to see what you are getting at perhaps its me thats thick or is it that your just being ignorant.
Or do you imagine that in some way you feel that your contributing to my upkeep, if I thought that was so I'd go and find the first empty bench to spend the rest of my days.
" Mind you your comments are interesting, they tell me that I, and others like me, are more representative than you and your kind care to admit"
How you work that one out will remain a mystery in the strange mind of TAG.
I dont wonder for one second that your puzzled by the actions of the moderaters your problem is that you are just naturally offensive so much so that you have no idea when you are being particularly offensive.
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Hmmm, methinks it was Shaw who once said that England and America are two countries separated by a common language.
But then he did say a lot of tosh too....
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Me offensive, surely not, not at all possible.
For example let me try this one on readers with regard to the Chad/Cameroon Oil Pipeline Project (CCPP). It has an important role to play in the current situation in Dafur, you know where hundreds of thousands are dying. So it may be that it is not our pensioners who are dying but don't people really care about fellow human beings.
So, may I suggest that you contact the World Bank and ask them for a copy of the Area Specific Oil Spill Response
Plans (ASOSRP)for the CCPP. Now, there should be one, but guess what, I and some others think, that one has not been published and is therefore not available. Important, you bet.
Furthermore, all you greens when they want to put a coal-fired electricity plant near you, or somewhere, then ask to see the Strategic Environmental Assessment for the project, under EU law there must be one. The same for waste-to-energy plants, or incinerators as they really ought to be called.
Finally, do your own research and look at the scientific evidence on the internet and make your own minds up about the effects of Aluminium Sulphate on humans. Just let go and look.
Now that was important as Balls would say.
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On a lighter note lads.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7602667.stm
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Nick,
I think that some people think me rather uncaring, and maybe a little bit arrogant. Well I supoose if the cap fits, then I will have to wear it.
I don't think that I have really had much respect for authority. My confidence may well be misplaced but I have always regarded the word as being more powerful than the sword.
For example, I think that if we are to have a welfare society then it ought to be properly administered. So, for example the government says that help ought to go the the poor. So be it, but what has to be understood that there is the age old problem of the deserving and the undeserving. I have never had a satisfactory answer to a question which I have 'why should I be impoverished to give money to somebody so that they can have a higher standard of living than the person who pays?'
Should we not bring back a real means test, before being given any state aid then you must pay for it with a diminuation of your standard of living. Is it not time to bring back the work house? Oh, and single mothers should be put in one, contentious yes, but exactly why not?
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264 DHWilkinson Although you and I have a lot of the same views and I am sure that your remark was meant with good intentions, you know nothing of my temperament I feel no anger to anyone on these blogs not even these fanciful Tories on here as I have said many times I come on here because I find it amusing.
It is not going to change anything no matter what we say, it just a little jousting of minds.
We make some points they make others we think their uninformed they think we are they fetch out one set of statistics we counter it with another. its all a game that some think they win but nobody wins because it means nothing.
Anyone that takes any of this seriously needs to take a reality check, its nice to air your views and fun and it saves shouting at the wife not that I would dare but its just opinions our opinions we think we are right equally they think their right.
You could sit at your computer all day writing and the only person that gets any satisfaction from that is youself and the few that agree with what you saying,probably the wife as well because it gets you out of her hair.
So dont imagine for one minute that I am in the slightest bit angry or about to burst a blood vessel as TAG advised me recently,
thanks for your concern but even at my age I'm far to laid back for that.
The only statment that Maggie ever made that I want to remember was"I'm beginning to enjoy this"and thats how I feel.
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270 Tag Yes I care but I dont talk and do nothing I make monthly contributions to several causes, of course by your reckoning you could say its your money that I'm giving away.
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"The Biggest Aspidastra in The World" Gordon Brown has adopted Gracie Field's song as his own!
In a way, even though I'm a poor old pensioner - can't stand that term senior citizen - I almost regret I get a special payment for winter fuel. The jealousy and venom that ageist bloggers, and not only on this board, vent on us poor old f**rts is horrible. I've even read some that write that they can't wait to reach 65. Well, they must lead sick little lives, and I hope they develop gout, sciatica, tooth ache and all the unpleasant things the flesh is heir to.
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273. grandantidote
Would just like to point out that there hasnt been too many statistics from the left this year.
And when the right posts one they are rarely responded to directly.
Heres a good story about a fine socialist council.
http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2008/09/05/city-council-finance-chief-in-500-000-pay-off-64375-21680942/
George Orwell could right a book about it. ahh.. he already has.
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275 pheonixasrien I agree with everything you say except the first bit.
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273. grandantidote
Thought you might lik this one:
To cure the British disease with socialism was like trying to cure leukaemia with leeches
M Thatcher
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272 TAG
Should we not bring back a real means test, before being given any state aid then you must pay for it with a diminuation of your standard of living. Is it not time to bring back the work house? Oh, and single mothers
Quite right old man!
Concerning the single fathers who knock up our daughters, should we horse whip them or just castrate them!
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276carrots need a quango. now thats just the silly remark I expected after what I had written to DHW I had a little bet with myself on who would be first to respond but I lost I had you in third place only on intellectual form of course.
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278carrots
did you not read this part of my post 273
The only statment that Maggie ever made that I want to remember was"I'm beginning to enjoy this"and thats how I feel.
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TAG you really do take the biscuit.
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It was Ed Balls that I heard this morning. I was beginning to think Hazel Blears had morphed. At least he was on script. I recognized the words.
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By the way glad everyone had a good nights sleep. I thought it was turning into a bit of a slanging match last night.
217 igiveup2 - Loved the poem. Succinctly put.
If you want to get anything done, you have to find the right phone number and complain. It gets logged and if enough people grumble it will get done. Won't hold my breath though
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Here's some more Daoist comment that has some relevance to recession:
The waning and waxing of energy and matter are the movement and rest of things; rising and retiring by day and night are the movement and rest of the body. Everything, including the advance and retreat of the person, the arising and vanishing thoughts, the fortune and adversity of the world, the success and failure of tasks, is a matter of the alternating rise and fall of movement and rest. If you observe their patterns of movement and rest, you can see the myriad changes of myriad events and the conditions of myriad beings. When you are mindful in times of rest, you are observant in times of movement. If you have self-mastery in times of rest, you can be decisive in times of movement. If you have stability in times of rest, actions will not lead to unfortunate results. Rest is the foundation of movement, movement is the potential of rest. When you do not lose the constant in movement and rest, your path will be illumined.
-- Book of Balance and Harmony
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I thought for a moment folks here had had a thoroughly please Sunday lunch and returned with a new spirit of camaraderie. Doh, silly me! Normal service was quickly resumed. I'd just like to say while we all appear to be gathered together, my apologies to anyone I have knowingly or inadvertently offended. Sometimes you realise because the response is immediate and stinging. Always good fun I suppose because to provoke a spiky reaction is entertaining. For my part, I fully expect to disagree daily with certain people, so I will endeavour to take issue in a little more civilised fashion. Shall we all give that a go? Didn't think so. Belated good afternoon all.
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266 carrots...
LOL or whatever I know your alternative meaning to that word is and i know if it is taken too litererally it can lead to serious injury. As for the film you got me their! well done you.
273 Grandantidote I meant no offense. agree with you totally.
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carrots..@278
I thought this might interest you
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3858087.stm
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Strange news about power supply this week.
I lived in Barrow-in-Furness for about 5 years when I was young. In those days Vickers was still a major employer. We used to have family trips to Walney Island, an incredibly windy little island that creates the natural harbour at Barrow. There was one road, shaped like a noose, with housing at the loop and half the island taken up by a bird sanctuary.
Now Gordon is going to build Europes largest wind farm off its coast. Very appropriate, as I have already mentioned the islands ability to grab wind. So, a super new wind farm in England, threatening the whole bird sanctuary - well, I guess something has to be done. But where is this power going to? Glasgow!
Not Barrow, nor Preston, or even Liverpool/Manchester, but to Gordon Browns house!
The highlands of Scotland also catch the wind, especially along the valleys, but Gordon won't build within 50 miles of his own house.
Go to Hell, Gordon.
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265 power...
most of the dumbest films are 15+ or 18+ rated. U films are aimed at everyone not just children. The ones only for children are Uc or something. The 3d with those funny glasses was OK.
Besides Kids aren't that fussed about the Manchurian candidate or Wall street.
sorry about the gap just went out to take advantage of a gap in the climate change.
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re: 290
sorry about the gap just went out to take advantage of a gap in the climate change.
You've lost me.
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#286 Iliciplero
Funny, I too thought that after we all had our Sunday dinner things would cool down. Feeling mellow after a good old-fashioned roast, with all the trimmings, followed by a grand fruit pie and custard. Hope all those silly b*ggers who are on healthy diets enjoyed their lentils and rabbit food!
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It looks like its back to 1970s Britain for the U.S. Right wing Republican party. Nationalising 2 banks! massive banks, not a tiny little bank like Northern Rock. That'll be a fair amount of one off flat tax that every taxpayer will have to pay. Remember that £3000 each? that was Given or was loaned to the Northern Rock.
So how was Gordon Brown involved with this one?
Will Cameron or Osborne say they should have been put into receivership I wonder?
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291 power..
I only wish. Its all gone quiet have you noticed? Those lefty Americans have only gone and nationalised 2 banks. Outrageous. Got to be Gordons fault somehow. I'm sure you can enlighten us.
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re: 294
Has Gordon been over to visit them recently? Everyone knows that he's cursed (except his most loyal drones, ie you).
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I doubt Gordon Brown wants drones around him. Discipline, teamwork, and the long-term but not drones. And that's something his backbenchers need to get. The problem is some of them have become a little carried away with ambition and thinking they're different. They're not, but this gets in the way of doing the job they do have as well as they could.
I tend to think Parliament gets in the way and intimidates too many MP's. A common and mandatory training package would help all MP's get on the same page, and better parliamentary systems would help everything fit together better and ease flow. There have been calls for change on both fronts and I tend to agree.
As the Prime Minister becomes fitter and keeps his fingers out of the sweetie jar, I suspect a similar fitness package for parliament would help out in a similar way. At the moment too much flab and graft get in the way. Letting go of those bad habits strike me as being useful.
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re: 296
That's a surprisingly sensible post from you Hardwidge, if a little over-optimistic.
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276 carrotsneedquangoes2 If you want to read a good Tory council story just punch Gentleman Jim Speechley into your internet
wonderful reading especially for the voters of Lincolnshire,go on I dare you. enjoy.
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What 'Grand Old Duke of York' kite-flying, followed by flirting, followed by leaked announcements, followed by 'second thoughts' and panicky retractions and morning-after-the-night before recriminations do we have in store this week ??
Stay tuned for the next exciting instalment !!
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Hey Guys,
a generic term by the way.
Now you know I always refer to the great Reaper and Predator in respect of our wonderful troops in Iraq/Afghanstan, well now we can add the wonderful Mantis. You could not make it up.
Nobody must know about it, the enemy must be kept in ignorance, oh that's right it is in the Mail on Sunday.
In the meantime the BBC publicise in their Sunday programme McNabb. Why is there no injunction preventing him from speaking in public about our wars, oh that's right, he says what 'they' want to hear. The troops are being educated, I can't believe this drivel.
At this point I swear so I have edited myself, but am I angry, am I appalled, am I ashamed of my country, yes to all. I cannot say what I feel but this is shameful. Some say I that I anticipated Armagheddon and it has not happened, well for those we kill and maim this is their Armagheddon, it is personal, it is death!
There was a famous anti Vietnam song, which had the title Kill! Kill! Kill! That is what is being done in our name, death and do we seem to care, No! a resounding NO!
For God's sake Gordon go. Please go you do not realise what you are doing in our name.
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re: 299
The week ahead:
Monday: John Prescott punches newly-elected Green party leader Caroline Lucas in the face
Tuesday: Leaked internal-memo reveals plot to assassinate Brown at Labour party conference
Wednesday: Harriet 'this is my moment' Harperson caught in flagrante with Charles Clarke
Thursday: Massive tax-hike in order to fund the inflated salaries of another Quango Regulatory Authority
Friday: Brown goes ahead with the windfall tax and pledges the funds to ID cards scheme
Saturday: Home Office records released on the internet
Sunday: Riots outside Westminster, London in flames, Brown resigns
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300 TAG I wish you would take your own advice and go and soon please.
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301 ppl just one word again, idiot!
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#301
Everything you say could or could not be true except for Sunday. Ain't going to happen, we are pathetic. I am pathetic, don't quote me. Ouch!
Revolution. No Britain is evolution, pathetic. Take to the streets, I want to find some people to lead!
Brown is an Aspidistra.
Yeah, I had a couple of beers 'cause the sun came out in the South West. Cheers everybody, especially Chrissie, love you, miss you :-)
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#301 p_t_t_p
The Week Ahead -
Afraid only six of your seven days are feasible.
Wednesday, did you mean David Plonk-it, sorry Blunkett??
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The Tom Cats and the Moggies love to spend their evenings out,
UP THE BIGGEST ASPIDASTRA IN THE WORLD.
They all begin mi-aowing when the buds begin to sprout,
FROM THE BIGGEST ASPIDASTRA IN THE WORLD.
The dogs line up for miles and miles a funny sight to see,
They sniff around for hours on end and wag their tails with glee,
So I've 'ad to put a notice up to say it's not a tree,
IT'S THE BIGGEST ASPIDASTRA IN THE WORLD.
This says it all!!!
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298. grandantidote.
Got that, and glad to see the guy has been jailed and fined.
But that story isnt quite in the same legue is it. Its not actual Tory council policy.
If we are going to joust, youll need to raise your lance a lot higher. ;-).
Any specfic comments on the socialist republic of Liverpools policy and the waste of tax payers funds to rid themselves of this totally incompetent man?
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Another good reason why all my personal data should not be handed over to this incompetent government.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Immediate-Inquiry-Ordered-Into-How-Data-Disc-Containing-Prison-Staff-Details-Went-Missing/Article/200809115094409?f=rss
Dont worry though, cos Jack Starw has said he very worried about it.
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re: 305
Lol yeah, you'd have to be blind wouldn't you?
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#302
No my friend, never. Sorry about that!
At least not 'til the earth freezes over.
I'm too precious.
About time for a new theme Nick, or are you back on holiday.
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re: 306
Lol I like that song.
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#309 p_t_t_p
Oooh you say that!!
Didn't John Major once own up to an extra-marital with Edwina Currie??
What was he thinking?
Hold on a sec' did I just have a dig at one of my beloved Tories?I think I did, what was I thinking??
At least the original "El Gordo" (Prescott's) bit on the side was reasonable looking!!
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#311 power_to_the_ppl
Thought you'd like it. The whole song is on Google and it's a good laugh.
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#313 Ilicipolero
Maybe, but John Major's bit wasn't a mild masala take-away, it was a real hot currie!
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# 137
I am sorry I have not replied sooner but in the modern idiom, I am very 'time pressured'.
As you are a Scottish nationalist and I am loosely an English nationalist (within the context of the Commonwealth and the EU), then we sometimes forget that Brown is Prime Minister of 'Britain' and as such, is constitutionally mandated to uphold and promote 'Britain'.
Therefore, it is not unreasonable to expect him to 'bang on' about Britain and also try to introduce ideas that reinforce the concept of 'Britishness', for example, a 'British Day', troops marching through streets on return from war zones, lessons in Britishness for potential citizens and so on.
However, I would imagine that you are spot-on with your observations up there in Scotland regarding the increasing numbers of people who feel themselves to be primarily Scottish.
I am certain that the same process is going on in England too, and Wales.
There are a variety of reasons why this is now an accelerating process both sides of the 'border'.
Which itself is such common parlance as to give the game away.
That is, borders exist between countries.
There does seem to be a very large number of people blogging here who loathe Brown, as they eventually did his predecessor, Blair.
I should look rather unkindly upon him myself, as in 1997, Brown introduced a tax measure (IR35) which was so onerous that it threatened to wipe out one of my businesses.
However, in a rich case of irony, myself and several thousand like-minded individuals formed a union ... to defend ourselves from a Labour Government!
However, I do not bear a grudge as I recognise that if a person is a member of a political party, then the dogma of that party will prevail, which I believe is what happened in the case of IR35, i.e. not about money per se, but rather more about controlling people, trying to force them into the Governments preferred employment scheme, namely as a PAYE employee.
Which, broadly speaking, puts people into a submissive mindset and thus easier to 'manage'.
I digressed slightly but hope you find it interesting.
Anyway, Brown made a terrible error of judgement in not going for a General Election last autumn, which would have validated his position with the public.
Now he flounders around, but such is his fearsome reputation within the Labour Party, that no serious challenger will probably emerge.
Even if one did, it is simply too late.
Just as a business has to work extremely hard for the right to exist from year to year, then so does a political party.
In the case of Labour, the point of the party existing seems to have pretty much evaporated.
Their over-arching mandate since 1997, was to 'modernise' Britain.
Frankly, despite the Labour Government throwing huge wads of taxpayers cash at it, Britain has not been 'modernised' very much, in my opinion.
Possibly this is what Tony Blair meant at the end of his tenure when he said he wished he'd been 'more radical'.
Anyway, England, Scotland and Wales will be individual countries again and it will NOT be a 'Balkanisation' of Britain, with its associated horrors.
I believe that instead, the English, Scots and Welsh will get along very well indeed, as we have hundreds of years of history in common.
If only the politicians could keep up with the people's aspirations and drop their political desire to always acquire and hold more and more power.
It is better by far to give away power ... to the people.
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When I first heard about Major and Currie I felt sick! Same with Mark Oaten and his activities, they were also nauseating. I once saw him on the tube, looking very sheepish.
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Don't forget that sordid piece of turd Harvey Proctor going back a few years. Surely there are one or two equally odious Labour types. I feel awfully dis-loyal tonight, not sure I like the new me!! "The Prisoner of Zen" and Wilky will be encouraged.
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#316 John
Thanks. Interesting points.
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#316 JohnConstable
What a thought provoking post, where to start?
I think as a rule of thumb, English, Scots and the Welsh generally tend to think of themselves as just that. I exclude the majority of the Northern Irish because after years of turmoil and relative stability these days I wouldn't want to offend.
I know not enough about IR35 but would be interested enough to understand the basics. Presumably, yet another El Gordo convoluted idea designed to ensure people give up.
I too believe El Gordo blundered significantly when choosing to avoid a General Election when the opportunity presented itself, not the decision per se but his dithering prevarication. From that point on was his biggest and most public own goal, amongst many perceived blunders.
I've always doubted Blairs sincerity, enough said probably!
But, to cut to the chase, El Gordo has possibly damaged the Labour Party more than Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock, at least you can excuse these two leftys. After the deceitful Blair and the out of his depth Brown, where next? Between the two of them the party faces an uphill struggle.
The usual suspects can feel free to completely pick the bones out of my ramblings.
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Some of you are interested in the debate over constitutional change within the UK - especially those of you who want an English Parliament.
You might like to keep an eye on the crisis in Belgium interesting article in the Mail which has intensified - they are again without a Federal Government.
Long before Scotland becomes independent, the EU is going to have to deal with a member country separating into its component parts. The eventual solution may well influence the settlement we make within the UK.
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308 carrots..
A Contractor lost a removable disc and didn't tell anyone. If anyone wanted to steal that information nobody needed to know they would just copy it and nobody would be any the wiser. The disc is probably just lost.
All party's plan on saving money. You are very keen on it yourself. That usually means the involvement of the private sector.
Memory sticks did not exist pre 1997 and removable media was rare and expensive. Except the 3.25in 1.44 Mb floppy disk. So we cannot judge whether this is 'labour incompetance' as you put it. even though they weren't directly involved or just bound to happen with todays technology. Who knows. It may be just as likely to happen to any government.
Interesting you use a link to Sky News website on a BBC Blog. Is Murdoch more in favour of your point of view?
__________________________
Thanks for the advice earlier carrots.. but it's not relevant to me.
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#322 oldnat
What about the Spanish model, are there similarities? Not fussed about Belgium but the limited Regional Autonomy of the Spanish is interesting. Too complicated to explain here,
but.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_communities_of_Spain ......
might shed some light
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#324 Ilicipolero
You won't be surprised that the situation in Catalonia, Galicia etc are quite well known up here!
The Catalan expression paco a paco (little by little) is very similar to SNP strategy and the (pre-Euro) statement which was subscribed to by both their centre-right and centre-left parties would probably be accepted by most Scots "If it costs a peseta to stay, we're leaving : if it costs a peseta to leave, we're staying".
There are similar tensions in many countries, and they are seldom reported in either the English or Scottish press.
Belgium, however, is the one to keep an eye on because it is a state at breaking point. The EU can't just ignore it, since its capital is Brussels. Whatever, solution is achieved becomes the default position for other EU states. There would seem to be a number of possibilities. Examples would include
1. "Belgium" is retained as a fiction, while being in reality two independent states (no idea what happens to the German minority!)
2. Flanders and Wallonia become independent states (a variation includes Flanders ceding Brussels to the EU, as Virginia donated Washington DC to the Federal Government)
There will be others.
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317. At 9:40pm on 07 Sep 2008, power_to_the_ppl wrote:
When I first heard about Major and Currie I felt sick! Same with Mark Oaten and his activities, they were also nauseating. I once saw him on the tube, looking very sheepish.
At least Currie and Major were doing, so to speak, normally. Mark Oaten was just sick.
People's private lives are their own affair. But if you wish to run for office you must be totally transparent and have extraordinary self-discipline.
The Lib Dems seem to specialise is the lack of discipline. Kennedy an alcholic - now Churchill was a drinker, but he did not have access to nuclear weapons. Charles Kennedy, had he been prime minister, would have. Then there is Mark Oaten. Why trust a man who betrays his family? The good old Nick Clegg who loses his temper during a televised debate. Yes, he is human. But politicians are also expected to be diplomats at times, and diplomats never, ever lose their temper.
With regards to energy costs, it won't make on iota to the companies if a country becomes independent or not; they will still charge what they can.
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Nick,
with the bail out of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in the US we can now understand why Alastair Darling has said what he did about the economy.
This is an absolute disaster and the whole world will slip into the recession which will repeat all the mistakes of 1928/29.
It was the action taken in 1928 which sowed the seeds for the Great Depression which started in 1929.
I wish I wasn't so negative, I wish that I will not be able to turn around and say I told you so, but many people do not have a clue.
I hear that the public service unions are leading their members up the garden path by demanding wage increases which mirror the rate of inflation. This is insanity. How much are these union leaders pocketing, they are not altruists.
If anything many people, not only in the private sector, but also in the public sector, are actually going to have their income reduced. As I have referred to historical events before then look at the Invergordon Mutiny and see the effect that had. This time it will be the public sector unions.
We will rue the day that the Americans have taken this action.
This day will see another Brown relaunch, well he is the captain on the Titanic, and he is taking us all down with him. The Titanic was meant to be unsinkable, well just as it hit an iceberg in a way which was not included in the plan, it is the same with the British, and world economy.
Brown might as well stay, there is no alternative. I'm afraid the credit crunch will not ease, batten down the hatches because this storm will be much worse than you can ever imagine.
As for America, they may well elect the equivalent of Hoover, and just as he put his faith in dams to reflate the economy, Brown and his ilk are looking at alternative energy sources to boost the economy, dream on.
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#316 - Constable,
IR35 is an attempt to stop people claiming to be "self employed" and dodging tax.
The people I'm talking about are those who work full time for just one "customer" (typically, they are IT contactors) for months and years on end. They are, to all intents and purposes, employees but, by styling themselves as a "business", they can pay tons less tax.
A ludicrous practice and quite right that it gets stamped out. The trouble is it hasn't been stamped out because IR35 is not enforced with any rigour.
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sagamix @330,
Anything that can be done (legally) to avoid paying taxes to this (or any other) government is to be encouraged.
Why feed the bloated, incompetent, wasteful, and unproductive beast?
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# 330
The famous economist Adam Smith stated 'more risk, more reward'.
The IR35 tax actually inverts that rule.
It effectively puts 'permanent' staff in a better financial position than the 'freelance' people.
The freelancers do not have the training, pension or holiday benefits that are usually provided by an employer.
Furthermore, the freelance staff are usually remarkably healthy compared with the permanent staff, for the simple reason that if they do not turn up, they do not get paid.
Companies use freelancers to plug specialist roles and to help cope with peak loads.
They can usually be 'let go' with no fuss whatsoever, and often at quite short notice.
For all this, I believe that freelance staff deserve a premium for the additional risks that they carry, including void periods when no freelance work is available, such as IT freelancers, when the Internet bubble burst a few years ago.
In my opinion, pure political dogma bought this (IR35) about, nothing more, nothing less.
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"The question after Charles Clarke's invitation to the PM to buck up or step down will be - is it enough?"
Plainly not; Brown still says even today that all our problems are 100% purely due to "globalism".
The fact that we've had "globalism" since before the Vikings doesn't seem to have occurred to him.
"Globalism" is just a factor, it's not the whole story, in fact we had our own part to play in the damaging aspects of "globalism" that helped fuel the global problems as Brown didn't understand or do anything about the uk money markets following the herd towards massive disaster when they started years ago.
Brown actually made the global situation worse by his inability to understand how the system was functioning, so he allowed the uk to make it worse on the global stage, and he also made our own finances worse by not understanding that you can't spend more than you earn in the long term, and then he blames all the problems in the uk on the americans yet again.
100% denial again.
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#332 - John C,
I agree that freeloaders deserve a risk premium. And it's in the rate, isn't it? For a similar role, the contracting rate is significantly higher than the equivalent permanent salary ... half as much again, often nearly double, something like that?
Absolutely no case for lower tax on top of that, as far as I can see.
#331 - Max,
You want your streets kept clean and the corpses properly buried, don't you? Well, you have to pay for that, I'm afraid, and it's unfair that the PAYE slaves have to cough up when others don't.
Plus, when you see the remarkable mix of greed, stupidity, laziness, incompetence and money wasted in the private sector (how about the current mess in banking, for example?), it makes the government look quite good value, don't you think?
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Is something wrong with the software?
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#325 and 317
I apologise for my posting which the moderators removed. I'm afraid I was rather too candid in my scorn of this man, Mark Oaten. I agreed with
power_to_the_ppl how disgraceful it was, but then coprophagia is not a pleasant condition. I see nothing obscene in this posting, what has been written is fact and in no way libellous, so only the subject is unpalatable.
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Brown to rally cabinet today. Do they get in a circle with arms round shoulders like rugby players?
Birminghman should be able to save a bit on the heating bill with all the hot air.
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# 334
As the professional footballer once said 'netto, netto'.
It is irrelevant what the gross number is, it is all about what you end up with .. that is, net.
In my personal view, if the freelancer is not ending up with a premium of at least 15%-20% more than if they were a permanent employee, then they should seriously consider their options.
IR35 is being enforced, a very recent case has seen the freelancer being asked to stump up £99,000.
At least HMG are being consistent about this ... some financial commentators, including business journalist Patience Wheatcroft, pointed out that the median public sector salary is now more that the the private sector.
Given that private sectors jobs are usually a much riskier proposition than the public sector, Wheatcroft said 'maybe we should all demand Government jobs'.
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The real answer to the question Nick posed 'Is it enough' is a flat 'No'
Gordon Brown simply won't get the message. Allegedly he reads the blogoshpere and is prepare to be nudged into thinking up new policy. But if he really read and took in all the comments in the blogosphere he would have cleared off last year.
So it's futile to imagine that he goes of his own accord; he's like one of those colleagues everyone loathes but the company can't get rid of him. He just sits around getting more and more unpopular by the day.
The long term damage to NewLabour is beyond calculation by now; they have become the new nasty party who bash the poor and the elderly.
I predict 08/09 will see a new winter of discontent as those who Gordon has ignored decide to show just what they think about him? What's to lose? They might as well go on strike now and try to gain something as they know we are in for years of hardship under the tories to restore the national finances.
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# 338 - J Constable,
Agreed ... 20% more in the pocket seems reasonable extra comp for the higher risk of opting to freeload as compared to being a normal employee. And yes, as you say, if that's not the case then the person freeloading should be asking themselves if it's worth it ... that's how a market should work, isn't it?
All this should play out in the rate for the job ... things shouldn't be distorted by additional and unjustifiable tax breaks. IR35, in itself, I see as an eminently sensible attempt to close a loophole. I'm sure there are others.
If that's right, what you say, that pay in the public sector pay is higher than the private sector, then something has gone wrong ... it should be the other way around because of the extra security and better pensions in the public sector. You'd need to do a few calcs obviously but about 25% more for private sector feels about right to me.
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#338 - John,
You didn't tell me that Patience Wheatcroft (crazy name! crazy lady!) was a Sunday Telegraph person, did you? A bit sneaky, that was ... I'm not so sure about your stat now ... is public sector pay really higher than private sector?
Any backup from places other than Planet Torygraph?
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# 341
I do find the whole subject (taxation) extremely tedious and a colossal waste of time and energy that would be better spent on more productive uses.
The attractions of an extremely simple taxation system, with a clear delineation between the private individual and business, is overwhelming.
Unfortunately, there are very powerful vested interest groups who much prefer things, taxation wise, to stay much as they are.
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318 Ilicipolero,You ask,
"Surely there are one or two equally odious Labour types"
None that spring to mind but just for your amusement try the following on the internet,of course it depends how far you would like to go back, lets start with dear old Alan Clark, the only man ever to be caught drunk at the dispatch box.
Among the many things that he did was to abuse the hospitality of a South African doctors wife and family whom he was staying with but the internet will tell you a lot more than I would be allowed too on here,
Then of course there was one of maggie's favorites Cecil Parkinson and his secretary, they had a child and quite a lot of animosity.
Then there was David Mellor and his Spanish lady friend, Followed by a resident of the current Tory front bench Tim Yeo he was a naughty boy as well.
Then of course our fore mentioned prime minister John Major and Ms Currie. theres a few for you to look up Ilicipolero.
Before anyone rushes to mention Robin Cook and his secretary I will but dear old Robin married the lady.
I dont know if it was only infidelities that was stirring your curiousity, but we also have had a few Tories resident in HMP the ever popular Jefferey Archer not only infidelity in his case but perjury that landed him in jail.
Then of course Jonathon Aitkin more perjury more jail.
If we reach a little further there's Lord Konrad Black also residing in HMCP.
Plus the guy I mentioned to carrots earlier name of Jim Speechely also resident in HMP so there you are quite a lot of odiousness but unfortunately it doesn't help you case against the Labour party.
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Regarding IR35 discussion above, personally I could, if I wanted, be classed either as an employee or as a contractor; it's a grey area in my situation because I can be seen as doing both/either.
Technically I'm self-employed, so I could either set myself up as my own company, or I could just be a normal self-employed person using standard self-assessment.
I don't begrudge the government closing a loophole whereby someone who's basically just self-employed can set themselves up as a company and dodge tax; I think closing that loophole is fair enough.
There does need to be, however, as mentioned above, a premium paid for the risk when you're self-employed, as you could end up in a situation where you don't have any work for months on end, whereas if you're employed then your employer shoulders that risk.
That premium should not be paid via tax doges though; it should get paid via higher payments from the client than a normal employee. The employer has much smaller costs for contractors because they don't need to make various extra payments/conditions that they would with a normal employee.
Hence, a company can pay a higher wage for a contractor than they pay their own employees, and still end up with the same overall costs.
In most situations a contractor, even though more expensive as an hourly-wage than an employee, is actually cheaper to use; this is why permanent staff are always being made redundant and replaced with contractors;
The "sack permanent staff and then re-employ someone else (or the same person) as a contractor to do exactly the same job" situation is technically illegal, but employers do it all the time because it saves them money in the long term and they know that even though it's illegal, the worst that can happen to them as an employer is that they'll be forced to pay the minimum redundancy standard settlement which they'd be doing anyway.
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GA
I can think of one.
What about the infamous John Prescott and Tracey Temple then?
This man did next to nothing while he was Deputy Prime Minister, and we are still paying him a salary for doing much the same as he did while he was in office.
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# 342
From the Office of National Statistics, the median gross earnings per week for a full time employee in 2006 (most recent that I could find on a quick search) was :
Public sector 487.70
Private sector 429.70
A difference in favour of the public sector employee of 58 pounds per week.
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346 Shellingout - wasn't his job to make sure that TB and GB had an avenue by which they could talk to each other
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viablowinginthewind
Which avenue was that then? It took GB over five years to shift TB out of No. 10. I'm sure JP knew that he would be on the way out if TB left and it's no secret that GB and JP didn't like each other, so I'm assuming that all avenues would have been difficult to navigate at the best of times.
JP has his own legacy - HiPS....and just look at what that has contributed to the housing market!
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#347 - JayCee,
Fair enough, facts are facts ... thanks for that. I guess average pay would tell a different story because there are loads more mega earners in the private sector but, still, median is a meaningful measure so I am both surprised and enlightened.
Obvious question springs to mind ... are privates underpaid or is it more that publics are overpaid? I say the latter.
In fact, I say that almost everybody in the UK is overpaid by varying degrees (let's define "overpaid" as receiving more money that the true economic value added of what they actually do).
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342. sagamix
The monetary difference between the median level of full-time earnings in the public sector (£498 per week in April 2007) and the private sector (£439 per week) has widened over the year to April 2007, following annual increases of 3.0 per cent and 2.9 per cent respectively.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285
And lets not forget the final salary pension schemes still on offer here plus early retirement options.
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342. sagamix
Oh yes, plus it is virtually impossible to get fired for incompetence.
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#353 - Carrots,
Yes, I accept all this ... we're all of us overpaid in the UK and I can agree (based on these numbers) that this applies more to public sector employees than to low paid people in the private sector.
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346 shellingout that event with john prescott had already been mentioned so you didn't have to think very hard did you
try to keep up 313 ilicipolero. you managed in your quest to find all the odeousness in the labour party in one sentence [already mentioned] and that man had the decency to apologise to his wife, the conference and the party in public haven't seen any Tory do that have you?
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348 viablowinginthewind no prescotts job was to be deputy prime mimnister and to run the country whenever TB wasn't there and it was a job that he did admirably,
From ships steward to deputy PM in his lifetime not bad for a working class lad.
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354. sagamix
Perhaps we are, but market price depends on what someone is prepared to pay.
The key difference is that the markets will eventually move to correct private sector overpayments.
Who corrects public sector over payments?
This government has shown that it has no will to do this, in fact it has driven these salaries up hugely, not only that but we now employ a lot more public sector staff.
Government wont even tackle final salary pensions which are now pretty much gone in the private sector due to cost.
Surely the security of state employment added to the many additional benefits should result in basic salaries being lower not higher than the private sector.
When non wealth creating jobs look more enticing than wealth creating ones, you really are in trouble.
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349 shelligout your out of touch again old chum Tony Blair didn't live in number ten Gordon Brown did.
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#357 (Carrots)
Yes, the public sector does bring greater job security and better pension provision, so I agree with the point that salaries in the public sector should (on average) be lower ... by about 25%, I'd say.
I do not agree, however, with the premise of "private sector = wealth creation and public sector = waste". There is massive waste and inefficiency in the private sector (look at the banks!) and there is plenty of wealth creation in the public sector.
Who is creating more wealth, the person at the privately owned investment bank who sits there all day speculating on foreign exchange movements, or the person working for the council who comes along every fortnight to empty your bins? ... which of these people is the most "overpaid?"
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359. sagamix
Im not sure that I referred to all public sector jobs as waste, but they do all cost, they are support jobs and do not, in most circumstances, create any wealth.
Market forces will move quickly to eliminate an investor who does not create wealth for his bank. His salary is easy to work out, the bank negotiates with him, if hes offered to little he takes his skills to another bank. If hes paid too much the bank looses money and will make him redundant.
These forces are not in play in the public sector. I think the bin man analogy is wrong as I think most bins are emptied by private contractors now. Mine are. Any how the Hypothesis is interesting and labour governments always try to push salaries of public sector staff up and Tories reduce them.
The general consensus seems to be that Labour have gone too far on this issue and its time to reverse the trend. The figures from earlier certainly seem to show things have gone too far.
Another issue that certainly comes into play is that some very well paid government staff have made some huge errors, contracts, procurement etc and many have, for years, run very poorly performing departments and have received huge payouts to remove them from post. (See Phil Halsall Liverpool City Council for this weeks latest)
I don?t mind this in a private company, it isnt my money, its belongs to shareholders and shareholders can vote out directors each year and can even cash in and walk away. I object when government, effectively a monopoly, does this with my money.
Gordon Brown promised prudence with his grand and Golden rules but he failed to deliver. Labour as a team have also failed to deliver on so many other areas, tough on crime, Education, Education, Education, Sleaze, etc, etc. So, he does not deserve another go at things.
I think I am a little different to the typical anti Brown poster here. I actually think he has been a pretty OK to mediocre PM, much of what has landed on his desk has been beyond his control and he certainly has not got the personality for the job so he looks much worse than he is. He has reacted badly on a few matters. NR for one. But he was a terrible chancellor and his fiscal policies are now coming home to roost and, in addition, a global down turn to deal with.
Part of our problem is our huge public sector pay bill, pension debt, consultants and Quangos. Salary rates are far too high.
Too much tax, borrowing and waste for my liking.
Time to give another team a go.
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Okay, carrots, fair enough. They've been in for 11 (to be 13) years and I guess that's enough. They've done some good things but no way are they so brilliant as to deserve perpetual power.
I can't vote Tory because I disagree with most of their policies but I can see the benefit of a change. Nothing wrong with "change for change's sake" ... it's got a lot to be said for it. Don't expect the Tories will be able to do much about the UK's main problems but, then again, I don't see that they'll do too much harm either.
That point of yours though, about money wasted in the private sector isn't "your" money, whereas, in the public sector, it is ... sorry, I just can't see that.
Let's take a CEO of an Investment Bank who trousers a £100 million year end bonus in 2006 because the numbers say that 2006 was a great year for the bank ... he's a hell of a great guy who has created tons of wealth and fully deserves his share of it, right?
Okay, then let's say it turns out that those great numbers in 2006 were a load of nonsense (I dunno, perhaps because they were overstating the value of a large stack of CDO's, something like that) and the bank therefore has to post a mega loss the next year in 2007.
So now, in the same way that this CEO was deemed to have "created wealth" in 06, he has equally destroyed wealth in 07, hasn't he? And given that the "wealth creation" led to him personally pocketing £100 million, the wealth destruction should have him paying that money back, shouldn't it? ... and if he doesn't, isn't that sort of like theft? Of course it is.
Not my money, you say? Only "stealing" from the shareholders? Well, a couple of things ...
- the money "stolen" like this in the City alone dwarfs the amount lost through, say, corruption in local government (bad though that is also).
- the shareholders are our pension funds, so the money comes out of our pockets that way.
- if he hadn't taken the £100 mill in 2006, the taxable profits for that year would have been that much higher and so too would have been the amount received by the public purse (by "us" in other words) in corporate tax ... again it's our money, don't you see?
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361. sagamix
We agree on much, but just a point about your last few paragraphs.
Im not adverse to sensible robust regulation of markets to prevent fraud. I do not think market forces should be allowed to run unchecked.
Also if the CEO took the profit from his firm as income then the tax take would be 40% if the company retained the funds then corporation tax would be 30%. There are variations on this of course. But companies have to be allowed to avoid paying tax by legal means. You can not count avoidance as a loss to the public purse as it never ever belonged to the public in the first place.
Its also worth noting that profits can be off sett against past losses.
I am going to vote Tory next time simply for this reasoning:
The Tories will have to follow labour spending plans for at least 2 years, just as Brown had to follow Ken Clarkes.
During this time their natural instinct will be to offer some tax cuts. They can only do this by cutting waste. they will also reduce the size of government which I like the sound of.
Over the next two years we will really see if the Tories have any really good economic polices and if they start to impede public services then we can vote again in 2014. By which time very little will have changed on the ground.
If you like what you see then you can give them another 4 years or not as the case may be.
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Yeah, forget my tax take point ... a bit of a stretch, that. Stand by the rest though.
Any case, you're right ... unless something funny happens in the next 18 months, it looks like we're going to have the chance to "road test" the Tories for a year or 4.
It will be interesting. The thing I pray does NOT happen is for things to play out in a way that furthers the political aspirations of the strangely strange David Miliband.
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