Yawning gap
I breathed a sigh of relief yesterday when a Labour MP publicly declared that he wanted Gordon Brown to go. This is not, I should stress, because I want to see the back of the prime minister. It was because I was becoming aware of the yawning gap between what was said to be happening in private - plots, cabinet coups and backbench revolts - and what politicians were saying in public.
Viewers, listeners and readers can conclude either that this gap exists because politicians say one thing in private and something very different in public. Or because political journalists talk things up. The truth, I would contend, is that there's a bit of both involved.
Since I'm still moonlighting on the Today programme at the moment (hence the rather irregular blogging) I discussed this issue on air this morning with two veterans of political reporting - Chris Moncrieff, the former editor of the Press Association and Elinor Goodman, the former political editor of Channel 4 News. You can hear our discussion here.
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My main reflection, on the excitement of recent days, is that journalists should be prepared to admit that we don't know what's going to happen to Gordon Brown, because the politicians we speak to don't know, because they have yet to make up their minds.
What I can say with confidence is that the public words of support for the PM often do not reflect the private misgivings I hear. What's more, it's clear that many ministers and Labour MPs will spend the summer wrestling with their consciences, weighing up their personal interests and debating with their friends how to get the Labour Party out of the hole they're in.
The initiative always lies with political leaders. They can reshuffle their team, announce new policies, hold press conferences and the like. It takes someone or some group who are willing to risk their career and their reputation to bring a leader down. Often those people are not "the usual suspects" or the "men in grey suits".
It was, after all, an obscure Tory backbencher - Barry Porter - who first called on Margaret Thatcher to go and another - Sir Anthony Meyer - who ran as a stalking horse against her. It was Geoffrey Howe and not Michael Heseltine who brought her low.
It was Lib Dem MPs who were at the time relatively junior - Sarah Teather, Ed Davey and Michael Moore - who forced Charles Kennedy out.
The men or women, who may bring Gordon Brown down, are probably speaking to very few people now. It is the job of journalists to look for them but it is also our job to report the difference between talk and action.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~39~RS~)
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It is of course with a sense of enormous irony that we view a situation where the NewLabour party members are as undecided as their dithering leader.
We have reached a pretty passe when a party so far behind in the opinion polls can't even pluck up the courage to ask Gordon Brown to go.
There are some clear reasons for this dithering by his underlings; first they have no clear idea what they want to say that is different to Gordon Brown. Second there is no public appetite for any of them more than there is for Gordon Brown. Third nobody would actually believe in anyhting being delivered by this NewLabour NewBoy as they have failed to deliver on so much else.
So for all those calling for what David Cameron and the tories stand for the answer is simple - not a bunch of failed promises to the poor, a wholesale wasting of public resources and multiple quangos.
I'd sooner a chimpanzee ran the country than NewLabour; it would be more sincere, it wouldn't need to be told to eat its leftovers and they don't chew their fingernails.
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If any mod reads these comments can you please ask your "techies" to try to fix the previous thread, where all 470 comments have gone AWOL.
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Out of interest, does anyone know what happened to 470 posts in the previous thread?
Of course, we were talking about freedom of speech.
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The Scotsman's Scottish MP's message to Brown takes Nick's header comment a little further.
In particular, what do you think is behind Jacqui Smith's demand that Labour MPs stop "talking among themselves"? Could it be that at No.2 on the "Portillo List" with her Redditch seat vulnerable to a 3.4% swing, she has simply lost all hope of retaining it? I suspect she now just thinks that "Duff" Gordon will be more stubborn than any possible replacement and so keep her on the gravy train until June 2010.
For the "Portillo List", see my #288 on the previous thread if it recovers or the latest thread on Robin Lustig's blog.
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Surely another factor is that the MPs who might make a leadership bid know that whatever happens they'll lose this election, and are sitting tight to take over after then.
Become Labour leader now and chances are you'll be looking for a new job in 2 years.
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The statements of support and loyalty are merely dissembling; none of them believes what they say. I agree that if a serious assault emerges, it will be swift, from an unexpected direction and led by someone we don't know terribly well. I also believe Brown could resist such an assualt; if he says "No", what can they do about it? He controls all of the levers.
As for me, I want to see Brown go only if it means an immediate general election to allow us to eject Labour. Otherwise, let him stay in office and wither.
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I do love a good Greek chorus
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Nobody seems to be talking about the risk of not only losing the next election but a political vacuum within the Labour Party.
As we all know its Labour - but also New Labour. So once Brown is gone with no obvious leader in sight they will all start tearing into each other. So activists will be put off as there is a fractured identity. Donors won't see the point of donating and in any event if there are not many donors they will just be servicing debt.
Meanwhile its probably not lost on Cameron that Britain is changing fast. Scotland could be gone, perhaps Wales later, hence the rumour of negotiation with the SNP.
The electoral system encourages "boom and bust" in the media age. The Tories spent over a decade in the wilderness and now Labour are looking to plumb even greater depths.
Thats not good for the public as they don't get the policies and strategies they want.
If Cameron takes up fairer voting and say did an election deal with the Liberals (I am not a member by the way) then he makes sure the pendulum swings are reduced. It does mean his majority is less next time around. But then he must consider how long the Tories were in opposition last time.
With no activists, no donors, big debts, an identity crisis and a fairer voting system to inhibit regional strength against overall voting intentions Labour may break apart.
What a shame.
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Hi Nick, has there been any sign of the chicken run by MP's in marginal seats who are actively seaking out safer majorities elsewhere? I seem to remember this happening with a fair few conservative MP's in the run up to the 1997 general election. Maybe with the election a couple of years away it is too early but some must be looking around.
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I see that The Times Online have broken with a story that Miliband and Harman are now actively plotting to oust the PM - that certainly cheers me up. however, does this now bring Europe, and specifically the Lisbon Treaty, back into play in British politics? I assume (rash, I know...) that any new PM would have to go to the country within a few months of being selected by the Labour Party - is that "few months" less than the time it will take the Eurocrats to sort out Ireland? I think it was William Hague who declared that until the Treaty was finally ratified, then the Tories would campaign to have a Referendum within the UK. It seems to me that a Tory general election campaign promising a referendum on Lisbon immediately after being elected would completely put paid to any chances of a further Labour victory.
Perhaps I'm just hoping too hard...
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What does emerge from this, very much to everyone's shame, is that the gossip and briefings are all about how the party can get rid of Gordon, who in the party should wield the knife, how do we save the party legacy, how are we going to keep our seats.
I don't recall a single example of anyone asking what is good for the country. It is a silence that speaks volumes about the standards of modern politics.
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Re #3 threnodio
I genuinely believe it's a technical problem that happened when I tried to post comment #470 or #471 which I reported some hours ago via the Contact Us links. If incomplete text was uploaded to the database the retrieval stream is probably not closing properly.
Not only have all the comments disappeared but my "User Profile" too, whereas yours is OK. Compare the two by clicking on your own login above one of your comments with what you get when you click on mine.
I think I'll shutdown now and visit the real world for a while. Sorry if it was a word in that "last post" that caused the meltdown.
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Changing out Gordon Brown is not the solution-as far as I see it NuLabour don't have anybody else capable of running the UK.
The only solution is a mass cull of senior ministers to be replaced by MP's not tarnished with the NuLabour philosophies of spin and promises.We need a few more people at a senior level who put the country first.
If you got a few more Frank Field's of this world,who understand the issues, at a senior level there may be hope.
Under this new regime budgets should be slashed and Ministers advised that together with their civil servants they need to find economies of scale in their budgets by re-defining much improved business processes and practices within their respective Ministries.
And the government should be MOST ruthless to itself by reducing cost of Government through scrapping the myriad of quangos,think tanks and consultants they employ.If they dont add "value" dont employ them
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Whatever happens Labour will be punished because there is no immediate solution that will benefit them or even keep them afloat. If they keep Brown until 2010 they will be accused of not listening and if they get rid of him there's no-one to replace him, as Brown has systematically weeded-out any rivals via his Machiavellian machinations. Even Jack Straw can't save them because as PM he'd be another Brown in style and he commands no loyalty from the other MPs. I have no sympathy with them, this state of affairs is the result of the gradual decay of morality and their respect for the people they are supposed to govern. Someone said (oldnat was it? or Brownedov? I forget) on an earlier blog that their top-down centralised control was balanced by a guiding ethical principle, and now that has disappeared all that's left is hunger for power and their only principle is the all-consuming desire to retain it. I posted an article yesterday from the Guardian re: the current education system and this highlights exactly what the problem is throughout the whole administration. To use schools as an example: in short, they have become statistics-factories for the propagation of the government. Forget about the children, what do they matter? The whole system suffers from this approach, the entire culture of our country has been dominated by box-ticking and red tape for too long. In order for Labour to have any chance of success (ie. avoid complete wipeout) their first priority is to solve the problem of bureaucracy-bloat, and the only way to do this is to abandon top-down centralising measures that lead to panicky teachers, distressed pupils, bad education and false statistics. Do that and the culture will eventually change and things may start (finally) to pick up again.
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I actually sometimes leave the computer and this fascinating blog, went out and bought a newspaper. Read that "MPs encourage 'dream ticket' of Miliband and Johnson." I agree: this will be a dream ticket for the tories to oppose. Two plonkers!
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Re #5 stumo-
"Become Labour leader now and chances are you'll be looking for a new job in 2 years."
So what's different if "Duff" Gordon stays? At least you might improve your pension and severance pay.
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Before I read anyone elses comment I would like to say that this was a good honest peice Nick, well done.
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This is about survival full stop.If you are a Labour MP do you kick out Brown and risk losing two years pay.Or carry on and hope for the best and at worst two more years filling your boots. as for Miliband and Harmen do they really want to risk everything for a couple of months at the top.
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Most of what keeps the political commentators busy are of no interest to most people. Look at how many people vote in elections for an indication.
If you asked, a lot of people would be more interested in the result of Last Choir Standing than in what an MP thinks of the PM or who is 'minding the shop' while Gordon is building sand castles.
Until political commentators start explaining how the chatter in Westminster will bring the price of bread down then the lack of interest will continue.
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Re #8 thegangofone
But as I said on last night's Newsnight blog, the funny thing about fairer voting is that it would actually help some of the labour lemmings to survive
That's why I don't understand with all the kamikaze election plans being leaked nobody says: Fairer voting and completion of devolution - we could do a deal with the LibDems on those and go to the country early to wrongfoot the Tories.
It's simply too late for "Duff" Gordon to try that. Who would believe him?
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Re #13 gavin_humph
Your plan might help them a little, but it would have to include change at the top for anyone to take it seriously.
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I was interested in hearing the discussion this morning and also reading the argument above. The Lib Dems have never really recovered from ditching Charles Kennedy and I think any labour MP thinking of trying to get rid of the PM should bear this in mind. The greatest sadness for the Lib Dems is that in getting rid of Charles Kennedy in the way they did, they put one of their key policies... proportional representation... on the "back burner". A pity for all of us. In my opinion, there hasn't really been a substantial successor to Kennedy.
I think, in view of the above, any surreptitious Labour attempt to oust the PM would leave Labour in the same situation and could well put some of their key policies into the shade.
I Believe the greatest politicians balance the good of the country with personal ambition. The ambition to do something about the inequalities and injustices in the country is often lost sight of once office is achieved. Thanks to a few great exceptions to this, major social and parliamentary reforms have been achieved over the centuries.
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Re #14 power_to_the_ppl
It was oldnat.
Well said both of you.
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#10
Your comments about the final ratification of the Lisbon Treaty are interesting, but after the disgraceful way that Labour reneged on a clear manifesto promise to hold a referendum and got clean away with it, probably the final straw for many people including myself that contributed to the precipitous fall in Labour's opinion poll standing, who will now believe any party that makes such a promise? And that as much as anything is the legacy which New Labour will bequeath to the nation; a complete distrust, rather than quiet, healthy cynicism, of anything that a politician says.
The real irony is that those long-time Labour supporters who thought that they saw in the Blair project the salvation of their party's electoral hopes, were really embracing the instrument of its total destruction. After the next election Labour, New or Old, will will be an electoral irrelevance, with a few demoralised MPs stalking the halls of Westminster like wraiths, whilst the nationalist parties in Scotland and Wales, and the Tories in England get on with the business of governing. I wonder if Mr Woodward sees his switch to the Labour benches as a shrewd career move now?
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What on earth is going on.
There were some exceptional postings on the previous blog 'What's said and what's not' and I am not at all surprised that they have all disappeared. I wonder if they will ever come back or are they like the PM e-mail link, temporarily taken down, but never returned.
What will become a problem for all those supporting the PM is that their words will come back to haunt them.
For example, the politicians now talk about the withdrawal of troops from Iraq. However, what they do is to preface the comments by referring to combat troops. So, beware they are talking about combat troops.
The same applies to Gordon Brown, I am just getting on with the job. I think that we are going to get a MacMillan moment, you know the one where he was so ill that he had to go, to be replaced by the wonderful Alex Douglas Home.
If only there was a satirical programme like That Was The Week That Was where we could all have a good laugh, it is much better then being driven to tears by all the shinanigans going on.
Bring back the postings because I will have my worst conspiracy theories completely vindicated.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7530594.stm
T A G
You have been rumbled you are Obama in disguise
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Re #18 markthename
If you look on my Portillo List, you'll see both Miliband Major and the Harperson are well down it, needing swings over 20% to defeat them, so they have a reasonable chance of survival even if RMS Titanic stays under the control of "Duff" Gordon. Equally it means they haven't much to lose by staging a "coup". Tricky choice.
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I don't see that Labour has a lot of choice. Brown has become a liability, the young Turks - if that's what they are - are not going to lay down their political lives for the sake of the party. This really leaves only the old guard.
Those who still have cabinet posts to lose might find that very risky. I have to assume Blair foresaw all this and left parliament as well ensuring that he would not be available.
I was wondering about Prescott coming in as a caretaker, cracking the whip amongst the waverers, telling a few home truths and dragging the party to the left a tad before calling a snap election. He would lose it of course but he might just snatch defeat from the jaws of a rout and go with his reputation more or less intact.
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As one of the few remaining Labour activists, I do wish someone else was in charge of the Labour Party. But we are where we are.
According to my MP, Gordon Brown "lost the dressing room" at a meeting of the PLP months ago, when there were audible groans about the 10p tax changes.
But now, in the middle of a media firestorm (which cannot maintain this intensity for much longer) is not the time to change.
I predict he will go in a year's time (having taken the heat, whilst quietly achieving some good things which no-one will notice), with the new leader going for an election in October 2009.
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Amen to comment 19. NuLab has brassed off most of the electorate. I believe most of us have lost any trust in politicians. The transparently false doublespeak, most recently exempified by Hazel Blears, is a sad example of the administration and the poitical state of our country. When will the Westminster club appreciate the disdain they provoke? Prescot, Harman, Blears and Des Browne, determing our future. Maybe Ed Ball and Yvette can sort out the housing crisis.
Nick, where do you see your responsiblilites - to expose the hypocracy of politicians and serve the public or to preserve the status quo.
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Nick, how could you?
The TV correspondent standing outside the residence of the embattled politician, giving a meticulous description of the event in which someone brought in the milk at 7am, followed by 20 minutes of analysis amounting to nothing at all, is one of our most glorious journalistic traditions.
If journalists admit they just don't know, what next? An August newspaper headline saying "No news today, don't bother buying this"? Hell's foundations quiver. Someone might end up doing something useful if we aren't careful.
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Re #24 MalcolmW2
All good stuff
"I wonder if Mr Woodward sees his switch to the Labour benches as a shrewd career move now?"
Borderline, I would guess. He got what he thought was the safe seat of St Helens South for his apostasy but that may fall to a 13.2% swing next time.
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#26 - Pot_Kettle
Well for heaven's sake tell him not to shake hands with anyone in uniform or he will have Justin Webb on his back before you can say 'consternoon afterble'
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I think what is holding many Labour MPs from speaking publically is that much of the problem is about Gordon Brown's personality faults and more than his decision making and leadership skills.
Saying to a colleague or associate that "basically people dislike you as a person" is a tough conversation. I think he would take this type of conversation very badly. It would also end his political career instantly therefore i am beginning to see why the MPs are so reticent. I don't agree, but can understand it.
I think once a 'major player' comes off the fence then it will all be over very quickly.
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Re #25 T A Griffin (TAG)
"If only there was a satirical programme like That Was The Week"
Try "The Now Show" on Radio 4
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#26, Griffin
Obama in disguise, Obama in disguise cried Griffin in mock anger. You have it wrong again I am afraid. Obama is Griffin in disguise. There is only one leader of the free world. Obama is a johnny come lately to the cause. Nobody will admit to it but where Griffin leads others follow.
Mind you I am reminded of the French philosopher who saw a crowd in the distance shouting and waving flags.
He, because all philosophers are he, turned to his colleague and said 'I must find out where they are going so that I can lead them'.
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Nick,
We are all aware that the pundits and political 'insiders' usually know very little - and usually too late. If one wants a good indication of the political fortunes of Brown (or any other politician for that matter), ask a bookmaker. They're in it for the cash: sentiment and wishful thinking don't come into their calculations.
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#20 Brownedov
"we could do a deal with the LibDems on those and go to the country early to wrongfoot the Tories"
If I understand you correctly I don't think the Lib Dems (and I am not a member) would trust Labour after the last episode with Roy Jenkins.
Whilst I think Lib Dems would not want to do a deal with the Tories they do want fairer voting obviously. If they start picking up each others votes in marginal seats its an absolute blood bath for Labour.
Cameron could consider it because the "Tory brand" still needs cleansing.
In the same vein as threnodio in #11 if Cameron is seen to be doing something for the country as opposed to short term party and personal interests he gains long run credit.
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Labour are caught in a pincer between the Tories and the SNP.
They are doomed wherever they turn. With or without Gordon Broon they will get a good kicking when the election comes.
Changing their leader is irrelevant. I suspect they know this and that is why they seem so paralysed.
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I must be about the only person who quite likes Gordon Brown. He strikes me as intelligent, decent, honest,hardworking with a good heart. Sadly he is not desperately photogenic,humourous or too good with the media. Maybe people want PM's with a slick PR operation these days?
People are so fickle...one minute he is the best Chancellor of the Exchequer ever,with 10 years uninterrupted growth in the UK,the next he is 'washed up' because of international events such as subprime and energy and food prices going crazy. As if they were caused by him!!!
I far prefer him to Blair who was somewhat slimy with a false smile and in retrospect a tad bonkers. Major was a decent chap who liked cricket but was out of his depth as PM. Thatcher was decidedly strange and rather frightening,Callaghan was a buffoon....
No at the moment people here in the UK are very grumbly due to the disappearing pound in their pocket and want someone to blame. I am a bit sad it has to be Gordon.
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#28 threnodio
I often agree with you but ....
Prescott "...would lose it of course but he might just snatch defeat from the jaws of a rout and go with his reputation more or less intact."
You are having an off day or you have been to t'pub.
"Croquet Prescott" does not have the gravitas with all elements of the party. He is prone to a gaff. He would get ripped at the dispatch box. He does not interview well. The Unions are not happy with Labour and he won't help with donations outside of them and he can't appease all of the elements of the party.
On the other hand none of the other candidates are that great I suppose.
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Harmperson and Max Mosley are forming a new party called the Cruel Party!
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re: 36
"He, because all philosophers are he"
Try reading Mary Midgley if you get the chance, she's very interesting!
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Amusingly, Marti Pellow would appear to have come out in support of Mr Brown:
http://www.tessellators.com/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=1569
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"16. At 2:09pm on 29 Jul 2008, Brownedov wrote:
Re #5 stumo-
"Become Labour leader now and chances are you'll be looking for a new job in 2 years."
So what's different if "Duff" Gordon stays? At least you might improve your pension and severance pay."
Don't forget your Milton chaps,
As the Devil said, before being cast into the pit "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven."
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What concerns me about David Milliband is that apart from his dodgy politics, he appears to have only recently needed to start shaving his upper lip.
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Nick,
You have forgotten the public at large. We could bring the bring GB down.
Brown could not survive a series of well attended protest marches across the country.............
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#43.
Oh, I know about Mary Midgley, I was just trying to be provocative! Maybe getting some people to think. You know me by now, surely.
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re: 42
Lol I'd rather vote for the BNP than any party that has that loathsome woman in it! She might as well declare right now that if she was to take over from Brown she'd declare a certain part of the male anatomy illegal, and that you'd have to fill in a 50 page form to get a licence for it!
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re: 48
Yah, being provocative is half the fun on these blogs! BTW the comments are back up on the previous blog now, lovely jubbly.
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#42 - Phoenixarisen
Are they having a whip round for party funding?
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Please give him two more years enough rope and we won't see them again for a generation. They have done to themselves what Maggie didn't achieve the obliteration of pink communism. Good riddance to the lot of them richer than ever is Gordon's claim aye laddie and in a right old pickle the difference between now and the Tory years then I could afford a house and pay my bills. Now cannot afford to move house prices to high, petrol, ha I now ride a small motorbike to work. I will have to freeze this winter so I can help my brother heat his house to keep his kids warm. I now have to buy shops own brand or look for the end of date stuff. Going out is a dream of another time gone by I am not on a bad wage but being single every penny coming in is going out. So please let him stay and then we can rejoice in a couple of years when they will be gone forever. Though to be seriouse, do you really think there is anyone in the PLP that has the guts to put their head above the parapit and say pick me, pick me.
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#41 - thegangofone
Yes but on the plus side, he might just be mad enough to try. In the asylum, all patients are equal but some are . . . and so on.
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#47 - jonathan_cook
He'd probably bang the entire country up for 42 days and hold the election on day 41.
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I recognise the bind that Nick and his colleagues are in, particularly when they really do know something but can't provide the evidence. Just so long as they make it quite clear when they are merely speculating (which seems often to be the case), and if it's more than speculation at least provide some indication of the strength of the supporting evidence.
#40 frglee: no, you're not alone though the 'membership' of this site would make you think so. However, your characterisation of Blair and Callaghan are IMO way off beam.
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@47
You had better not organise a protest march, that is what 42 days was introduced to combat.
@40 frglee
You have given us an assessment of lots of former PM's but you dont know your economic history very well.
You say GB presided over 10 years of continuous growth. When he took over we had already had 4 years of growth.
He inherited the most healthy economy any chancellor ever has thanks to Ken Clarke.
He kept Kens policies for 2 years so that gets us 6 years of Conservative growth that only leaves him 8 years of his own.
As we can now see his "prudence" failed to set aside money for a rainy day and now those rainy days have arrived he is having to borrow to make up the shortfall in the tax take.
He was at best mediocre as a chancellor, in reality he was more like incompetant
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“40. At 3:12pm on 29 Jul 2008, frglee wrote:
I must be about the only person who quite likes Gordon Brown. He strikes me as intelligent, decent, honest, hardworking with a good heart. Sadly he is not desperately photogenic, humourous or too good with the media. Maybe people want PM's with a slick PR operation these days?
People are so fickle...one minute he is the best Chancellor of the Exchequer ever,with 10 years uninterrupted growth in the UK,the next he is 'washed up' because of international events such as subprime and energy and food prices going crazy. As if they were caused by him!!!.”
Yes, I think you are the only person who still likes Gordon Mc Clown.
As someone who has never felt anything but profound contempt and hatred for either him or his nefarious predecessor, can I offer you the other side of the coin.
You say that “one minute he is the best Chancellor of the Exchequer ever, the next he is 'washed up'.”
Your error here is the assumption that he was ever any good as Chancellor.
He took over an economy in good shape which was running a surplus, but which is now hideously in deficit.
Taxation has doubled while productivity is down. Poverty and inequality has increased while standards in health and education have fallen hugely.
By any reasonable indicator, Gordon Mc Clown’s handling of the economy has been poor. He has overseen the flinging of money at many projects, such as the NHS, but to no apparent results.
The only reason that he appears to have been proficient as a Chancellor is because, to put it bluntly, he has lied to us. The productivity has been fudged, the Unemployment figures have been fudged, the inflation rate has been fudged and the borrowing figures have been hugely fudged via the medium of P.F.I. The PM has had the unmitigated gall to criticise banks for ‘off balance sheet activities,’ but that is exactly how UK PLC has been run for years.
If he had done a decent job as chancellor over 10 years, the current international situation would have less power to hurt us as a country. We would be more secure, have greater reserves, less benefit dependency, a smaller state payroll to maintain and flexibility to trim sails and survive.
If the UK were a person it should be someone with no debts other than perhaps a small mortgage, lots of savings and a secure job.
Thanks to Gordon, the house is mortgaged to the hilt, with a couple of secured loans on top and the credit cards and loans are maxed out. The wages are gone the day after payday, there’s no food in the house and we’ve even robbed the kid’s piggy banks.
Yes, the international problems are not his fault, but our lack of preparedness is down to him and no-one else.
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1 RobinJd
Chimps are much too intelligent to run the Country.
To be better than the present incumbent can I suggest either a baboon or a sloth would be acceptable and make a better fist of it.
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TWTWTW
The difference is that That Was was original to many of us. I wonder what a David Frost in his prime would do to Gordon Brown in an interview now.
Surely the same applies to Jeremy Paxman, I wonder why we no longer see the real interviewers. The long interviews where the likes of Tony Blair could tell us that he is a straight sort of guy.
Is this not the problem for frglee #40 in an earlier posting. You see Gordon was the Chancellor when Blair was PM, he could have stopped the Iraq disaster if he had any guts. If he confirmed that the exercise had his full agreement and that for all subsequent actions he takes joint responsibilty, then my own personal view wil still not change.
He should have spoken out against the war. It is not good enough for any of these people to still be in control. They have blood on their hands and no amount of trying to change the agenda will work. The sooner they are tried for an illegal war, a war of aggression and war crimes then the sooner we can move on. Until that time I will never forgive them for what they done in my name.
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In response to #40 - frglee,
"Maybe people want PM's with a slick PR operation these days?
I don't think it is just these days that people have demanded slick PR operations -even as far back as prime ministers Castlereagh and Palmerston people have demanded it. Of course, Castlereagh's policies were generally decent but his poor
oratory skills meant that they didn't go down well. However, Lord Palmerston was great with the ordinary member of the
electorate and got his point across and was well received. So, I don't think it is just these days but goes back to early 19th century Victorian politics.
"People are so fickle...one minute he is the best Chancellor of the Exchequer ever,with 10 years uninterrupted growth in the UK"
Yes, but to the detriment we now face. He spent indiscriminately during a Global Economic Upturn (I'll even capitalise it - as
it is being used so much these days) and took all the credit for the prosperity of the nation. Thus, he has made a rod for his
own back as now it is a Global Economic Downturn and there are no funds for his indiscriminate OVERspending. However, the same conditions which he claimed were in his control when the going was good; he is now denying are in his control now that they are problematic.
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Is having a Freudian Oedipus complex a good qualification for being second in command of a political party?
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What's said and what's not comments appear to be back. See Griffin says and BBC does. Ah the power of the Griffin!
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Please go to #463 of the previous thread. It really does deserve to be read, all joking aside. You see I am fed up with people saying they did not see the economic depression coming.
The only problem is that some people do not recognise me as being an expert. Well I do not have a lot of confidence in the so called experts.
I do love it when commentators come on to the media telling us what they have found out. No, they have spoon fed and duped.
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Things can only get better. After the next election, the parliamentary Labour party will be a hard core of about 50 far-lefties (from constituencies where Labour's education policies have already achieved their target of removing the electorate's capability for rational thought) and funded 100% by the Unions.
Who leads them will be as irrelevant as who leads the LibDems, but they should provide a few decades of harmless amusement before they all die of old age.
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The conspiracy theories re the "What's said and what's not" were wrong and it's back.
Looks like the parser fell over in the process of mangling my #469 and/or power_to_the_ppl's #470.
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browndev@2 wrote:
"If any mod reads these comments can you please ask your "techies" to try to fix the previous thread, where all 470 comments have gone AWOL."
I know I was distraught. What a loss for British politics that would have been. ;o) We would have to go back to the previous thread where it was all said before repeatedly by the same few people. 470 comments nothing new or interesting to say. Be very careful with that delete button techies ;o)
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The griffin is a legendary creature with the body of a lion and the head and wings of an eagle.
As the lion was traditionally considered the king of the beasts and the eagle the king of the birds, the griffin was thought to be an especially powerful and majestic creature.
Griffins are normally known for guarding treasure. In antiquity it was a symbol of divine power and a guardian of the divine.
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Greetings everyone, as an avid reader but sporadic contributor to this blog, before I post my tuppence worth, I'd just like to say a big thank you to the regulars who have informed, educated and amused me, often simultaneously. You probably know who you are!
#29 sbudjh
I think the media firestorm you refer to has some way to go just yet, and in point of fact, has probably just begun. The 2008 Summer Recess promises to be compelling I've no doubt.
#40 frglee
Gordon Brown may be all of the things you describe, (a fundamentally good man), however, his public persona in my view, a dry, charmless, bungling, thick skinned and duplicitous control freak is the perception from the majority of people that matter, the electorate.
Assuming his fingertips remain strong enough for him to cling to office until 2010, any "achievements" will doubtless be met with cynicism. That supposes of course he isn't seen off beforehand by the "Piranha Club" of PLP colleagues. Nick Robinson has this blog spot on - in the coming weeks we can all expect to be entertained while he goes about his work sorting fact from fiction.
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re: 63
An insightful prediction on your blog, well done! Tell us, for how many years will the Labour behemoth be out of power?
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Re #38 thegangofone
I perfectly understand that "Duff" Gordon could not be trusted to carry it through, and the minimum token of faith would have to be a bill virtually ready for royal assent. If a new leader offered it publicly it might be an offer Clegg would find hard to refuse as well as difficult for the new Labour leader to back away from after the election. Any arm-twisting of lobby-fodder by the whips should be easy while they're at staring at certain defeat.
I also agree with both you and threnodio that it would be in Cameron's long-term interests to do such a deal, but I'm not so sure HE would with the prospect of a big HoC majority ahead of him anyway and his backwoodsmen needing arm-twisting on a much greater scale.
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40 Freglee
Yes - there are momentswhen I feel sorry for Gordon Brown too - it can't be nice for almost the entire country baying for your blood.....
..... bet then I remember the following:
- GB hounded Blair out of office.
- GB has outlined no plan or vision as PM. Killing Tony off was just for the sake of his own ambition.
Then there is GB's record as Chancellor:
- Stealth Taxes
- Claiming credit for creating the good economic times.
- Tax pensions
- 10p tax
- Gold
- PFI
- Billions spent on unaccountbale Quangos
- Telling us he has stopped 'boom and bust'
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Apologies all, a little eager with the Post Comment button before the end of my previous #68.
"Piranha Club" is not my own invention, from memory it was a phrase coined by either Eddie Jordan or Ron Dennis describing the machinations behind the scenes of F1.
To try and balance my previous comments, I can only think off hand of a couple of current labour politicians who break the mould of self serving egoists, Hilary Benn and Frank Field. On the opposition benches, David Davis, (please don't laugh), William Hague and Vince Cable appear to be politicians of intellect and conviction, qualities invisible in the vast majority of the present cabinet.
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Strange how Journalists only seem to want to talk to other Journalists when they can not get an answer from the politicians. I assume the great unwashed are not deemed to have an opinion. Does not matter who heads up New Labour, they are all tarred with the same brush. They made a promise in their election manifesto and renaged on it, and will not address the west lothian question. The voters will have their revenge.
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GB's high spending as Chancellor is easy to criticize now and I agree that PFI funding was always dodgy. BUT, that spending has to be set against the previous decades of almost criminal under-investment in school buildings, hospital buildings and other public services. Some serious catching up was needed - the public demanded it and even the Tories would have responded to that clamour if they had survived in 1997.
Never mind about not fixing metaphorical roofs when the sun was shining, Labour was fixing real roofs that should have been fixed decades earlier.
Remember it was the Tories who started to sell off council houses and initiated today's property crisis. It was they who de-regulated the buses and privatised British Rail and made us over-dependent on cars and lorries. It was the Tories who privatised Gas and Electricity so that we now pay more for our energy than the Europeans. It was the Tories who deregulated the financial markets which ultimately exposed us to the credit crunch.
Yes, these problems have crystallised on Labour's watch, but they were initiated by decisions taken in the 1980s.
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Nick
News just in -
1. Politics is a dirty business
2. MPs are self-regarding and speak with forked tongues
Somebody once said that politics is the second oldest profession and bears a very close strong resemblance to the first.
I see where he or she is coming from but perhaps a bit harsh on the members of the oldest ?
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#1 "I'd sooner a chimpanze ran the country"
Actually, this whole New Labour government situation is being to look like a PG Tips advert !
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Every time I hear you or others say "A senior minister tells me," I mentally switch off in despair.
The fact that politicians are too cowardly to say things publicly (which we elect them to do) and that journalists are too conniving to name them, says more about our morally bankrupt political system than anything else.
We want names. It is our right. It is not your right to keep them hidden, and MPs have no right to employ any form of skull duggery.
MPs who believe that this is how they should conduct their political business are lacking in the moral fibre to conduct their political affairs.
They should be parted from their fat salaries (and yes, to the rest of us they are fat salaries) and sent on their way.
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Two strories in the papers today caught my eye about how we are governed.
The first was about David Camerons holiday in Cornwall, and how he won't see the real Cornwall - which apparently away from the tourist areas in the holiday season is "broke" and defined by the EU as one of Europes poorest areas.
This is the same Cornwall, which in another story, was spending £467,000 on a new logo for the new Cornwall supercouncil.
It says a lot abot the priorities of the authorities running the country today. This is "Browns Britain" ..........
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You've had the Good Times - now things are not so good. History will have a much better view of Gordon Brown that the current political commentators both in the BBC and especially the Daily Mail. They forgot to blame the PM for the dolphins coming up the river. ARe they slipping.?
I'm not a politcal person, but having reached the age of 73, i can remember a time when writers/broadcasters were at least even-handed. now I think they are downright unfair.
close down the BBC and the Daily Mail for a month and we may get some accurate reporting from the rest.
One thing for sure - you are not doing Scotland any favours. We will be much better of under "Feartie frae Fyfe" (Alex Samond's words) then "Ba'heid frae Buchan"
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If you want a real laugh read Evan Davis' blog with his forcast for 2008
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/evandavis/2007/12/2008_looking_ahead.html#commentsanchor
One of the interesting things is how accurate his bloggers are compared to the Economics Editor of the BBC who was "spinning for Gordon" so as to speak.
Don't know how Nick keeps a straight face on the Today programme.
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As is sit here reading the "BBC" website, clicking the politics link.
I see the picture used for atleast 2 different pages meaning the exact same thing!
Anyways...
In this Blog there are a lot of people that have the same belief of whats gone wrong with the Labour Party. It doesnt take a dictionary, and google to work out EXACTLY why we are as we are.
Yes Labour, and yes i voted for them in 1997, yes trusted Blair and still now i remeber Conservative Political Campain "demon eyes" they put on billboards and posters of Blair with the Evil eyes and shocking "
911 happened, the war on terror, Iraq, now we have on us, food shortages, fuel/energy poverty, house shortages, inept mortgages, and the credit crunch. How can any Government say that going to war "even if it was right" can explain the global market?
Not without looking at their feet and saying "size nein" boots!
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#67
Please note the Griffins also guard the entrance to many Cities. I find the ones at the entry to the Street of Shame, namely Fleet Street, very glorious. I do not look anything like the wonderful mythological creature to which you refer but if I was going to have any surname then Griffin is one of which I can be truly proud. I know pride comes before a fall!
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#79 - geminiDISMAYED
Has the possibility not occurred to you that these were illegal immigrants disguised as dolphins? I would lock them up for 42 days. Real dolphins would not survive of so you could deport the rest without fear of acting unjustly.
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Although Gordon must ultimately take the blame for the government's woes, the real problem is Labour's unpopular policies and its disastrous handling of the economy.
Gordon has always marketed himself as the slayer of 'boom and bust'. How hollow that sounds now...
It's ironic that having helped push Blair from office, Gordon now finds himself on the receiving end.
As they say, what goes around, comes around.
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Shouldn't be too long until the publication of 'The Decline and Fall of the Labour Empire'. Look forward to reading that!
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I quite like the idea that Ministers say different things in public and private.
That, although they may abide by Cabinet solidarity in public, they fight like cat and dog for different views within Cabinet meetings.
Presumably Brown felt it was proper to argue that the removal of the 10 pence tax rate was a good thing behind the scenes and in public debate. What a chump! Being consistent is only politically worthwhile if you are right.
(TB ditched his opposition to the EU, nuclear weapons, etc.)
What amazes me is why the Treasury, with its team of highly expensive advisors, economists and accountants couldn't have come up with a solution that didn't require even more claims for credits.
Surely there could have been some approach to mitigate the impact in a simpler way.
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#28 - your comments about Prescott are correct, but I think the media would crucify him.
As a minister he is totally ineffective. But as a party politician and motivator he is very good.
I don't think he is going to worry about things too much. He has a nice fat pension to retire on. Why confuse things by running for PM?
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re: 86
I'd love to know their reasoning behind it. I can't see how anyone could have thought that doubling the tax on the lowest earners was a good idea under any circumstances, or how anyone could have thought that taking out a 2.7 billion loan--- that we'll have to pay for, no less--- to 'fix' ie. not fix the problem was a good idea either. I'm completely baffled, I can't even provide a tentative theory as to why they did it (discounting gross incompetence and contempt for us) let alone a justification.
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Been away from the Pirhana Pool for a while but see its no different to when I left. Lets just sat a tad "right of centre"
On a serious note I do really worry (I should get out more) about the media's influence on the government of our country. I'm beginning to think the media could bring down a government or a prime minister quite easily.
Its the media speculation that actually feeds more speculation untill that speculation becomes self fulfilling. As more fuel is thrown on the flames the bigger "the story" becomes and the more the media frenzy grows.
Every government in history hits problems sooner or later (usually economic) but that does not take away their mandate no matter how much opposition party's clamour.
I loved Hagues comments which were sometbing on the lines of "we need an election now so we can have a REAL Government"
Presumeably he meant the Tories.
So Cameron, Osbourne Hague et al would be "real government" Really.
By the way, on the subject of "mending the roof while the sun shines"
Just how much do exponents of the great soundbite feel should have been squirelled away, I've never heard George say how much he would have had in readiness, where it would have been "saved from" and why more importantly the Tories are still sticking to Labour's spending plans which is the real question?
PLEASE PLEASE don't anyone come on and respond that its because "he hasn't seen the books"
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Post 89. Eatonrifle.
In your penultimate paragraph you raised the question about why Osbourne is seeking to maintain Labours spending plans for the first two years................that is plainly wrong as it is simply a continuation of failed high tax and wasteful spending policies. You can guess what I think they should do!!!
However, with regard to your question about what the Tories would have done for the last ten years..............well that's simple too.....
Labour should have simply stuck to the Conservatives spending plans not just for the first two years after the 1997 election but for the entire 10 years!!!!!!!!!
That way Govt spending would not have risen from £300Billion in 1997 to £600Billion in 2007 and we would therefore now have something in the kitty for the bad times.
Many other countries did this............but we didn't!
I can't wait to see Bottler Brown's Memoirs.............
"How I singlehandedly ended Boom and Bust Economics in Britain"
What a joke!
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90# said
"However, with regard to your question about what the Tories would have done for the last ten years..............well that's simple too....."
But clearly that isn't what the current Tories would have done otherwise they'd not stick to Labours plans when in office.
What I think you mean is that your type of Tory hero, Thatcher, Tebbitt, Joseph would have done that but that isn't who you have now is it?
So in effect the current Tory party still stick to Labours spending plans which is why I said that is the real question. Why if they are so flawed and damaging to the country?
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re: 89
"I loved Hagues comments which were sometbing on the lines of "we need an election now so we can have a REAL Government"
Presumeably he meant the Tories."
Presumably he meant a government whose priority is governing, rather than on clinging onto power for power's sake. Presumably he meant that we should have an election in order to remove a washed-up gang of chancers who slowly but surely continue to destroy British freedoms: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." You may have heard that quote before.
The money that should have been squirrelled away is the money that has been consistently wasted on illegal wars and quangos, vast IT projects, 10(?) reviews into the NHS, etc, let's not forget all the stealth taxes either or the 2000 quid Beckett spent on her pergolas etc etc etc. To summarise: the money this shambles of a government has poured down the drain.
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90#
By the way if Osbourne and Cameron daren't alter Browns spending plans doesn't that make them even bigger "bottlers".
It seems pretty disingenuous to me to heap critcism on the Government's running of the economy and then say but we'll stick to their spending plans.
Some would say guttless or perhaps just clever electionearing, a bit like "labour isn't working" with the dole queu at 1.5 million only to add another 2 million in 2 years.
Prepare for deja vu everyone
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92#
Are you really suggesting that if the Tories win power as seems likely BUT after three years are being battered by the media and oppinion polls they'll hold an election rather than "cling on to power"
Yeah right!
British Parliamentary term 5 YEARS, you know like 1992 to 1997.
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re: 93
It's not just the wasted money, as if that wasn't bad enough, it's the benefits-dependent underclass that they have created and the ridiculous amounts of bureaucracy that they have introduced. Oh yeah and that hideous monster Political Correctness, which is a distinctly Nu-Labour creation. They should all be 'whipped with rhinoceros-hide whips dipped in brine' (to quote the great Philip Larkin) for that one alone.
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95#
I can't believe you feel government "waste" started in 1997 or that having a percentage of the population as "benefit dependent" only occurred in the last 11 years.
As for political correctness I'd say its more to do with societal change than a "creation" of New Labour.
wasn't the outcry about Labour's "Toff" campaign a case of "political correctness" but when it suits why let hypocracy get in the way.
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re: 94
Well Labour are quite simply not up to the job are they? Brown has removed any potential threats to himself and now he's blown it there's no-one of any standing left. There should be an election because they are criminally irresponsible and incapable of governing, simple as that.
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Today I visited a good exhibition from the National Portrait Gallery in Kirkcudbright. Included was a portrait of Thatcher - no special protection or guards etc; an unthinkable situation several years ago in Scotland.
Things change, and the venom disappears.
However, your political spats are rather gentle affairs, as you squabble over which group of people with broadly similar policies are going to manage your affairs. Angels and pins, or a Marks and Spencers shareholders meeting come to mind.
Scottish politics is currently really vicious (great spectator sport) because it centres round a huge issue - independence. People are passionate because, whichever side you are on, it's a matter of principle, and both sides think that the fight is winnable soon.
Given a choice (and its one that will be made by our southern friends and neighbours), I'll settle for Cameron, as being more annoying than Brown (you feel sad, not angry, when one of the family gets dementia), or Hague (much more electable outwith Cameron's Home Counties).
I'll now follow Bilbo's example at his 111th birthday party. Goodbye.
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re my #98
Of course, when you take the magic ring off .....
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re: 96
No, government waste and benefits-dependency didn't start in 1997 but they escalated from there and got progressively worse, which you cannot refute.
The outcry wasn't because of political correctness but because the Labour gang were indulging in irrelevant mudslinging, which they did because they're dead on the inside and have nothing to offer except worthless top-down centralising policies. They've been in power too long, gone stale, and now they need to go!
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An example of Scottish politics from today -
"This oleaginous, lugubrious, self-serving a***hole-chinned numpty", as a description of a candidate for the Labour (non)leadership up here.
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97#
confusing facts with opinions as many do on here.
In my opinion (expressed as such) they are more capable than Cameron and Osbourne and Hague etc BUT its an opinion! not a fact!
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re: 101
Hehe that's a pretty fine insult, I'll have to remember that one!
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power_to_the_ppl said, "I'd rather vote for the BNP than any party that has that loathsome woman in it!"
If it was between Cameron and the BNP I would vote for Cameron. If it was between Clegg and the BNP I would vote for Clegg. If it was between Salmond and the BNP I would vote for Salmond, etc, etc.
You have lost what little credibility you had on this blog.
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100#
of course the outcry was political correctness just not the type you deplore so you find an excuse for it.
It was certainly a bad campign in that it was misjudged because it did not take account of the political correctness aroubd class not just other issues such as gender, race etc but make no mistake THAT WAS POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
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re: 104
It was a flippant remark to illustrate my contempt for that ghastly woman, hence the 'lol' in front of it. I would never vote for the BNP thank you very much!
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104#
I hadn't seen that but can't say I'm surprised.
A small comment that speaks volumes!
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re: 105
Do you think it might have had something to with Dunwoody being in Burke's Landed Gentry whilst accusing Timpson of being a toff? THAT'S hypocrisy.
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I agree with all of power to the ppl's points!
Post 91. Eatonfile
Yes you are right the Tories are not offering the right solution which now needs to be applied in the medium to long-term. That is a drastic reduction in state spending "rises", a halt on more taxation rises and no more borrowing until the huge Brown debts are re-paid.
Quite simply the next 10 years need to be about balancing the books, thrift and value for money and that won't be achieved by sharing the proceeds of growth with the Government giving them MORE to spend!
Enough is enough. Let's give the proceeds to growth back to the people who've created it....................especially the aspirational poor in tax cuts not state dependency inducing tax credits!
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89 eatonrifle
Welcome back to the piranha pool, I agree with your comments about the media frenzy. This is unfortunately how our celebrity obsessed society has developed. New Labour have certainly benefited from a situation where more people vote on "big brother", "strictly come dancing" or "X-Factor" than they do at the general election. Taking the people out of the politics was one of Tony Blairs great achievements survival wise.
Gordon Browns media image has also improved in recent times - he got married, had his teeth straightened, softened his accent, and took his tie off whilst on holiday.
His overall media image, however, is still rather wooden like a ventriloquists dummy. I won't care one bit about this personally, if I felt that I was somehow being represented or that he had some sort of game plan for the future of the country.
But his only real talent in 11 years of government seems to have been the creation of more an more stealth taxes, and taking money out of our pockets without us noticing until it was too late. Unfortunately, his coffers are empty, and so are our pockets. This, unfortunately, is not an invention of the media.
If the media could bring about a change of government, the so be it in this instance - the lack of political backbone amongst Labour MPs mean that they won't do anything about it. Just who is representing the British people now ?
One area I do feel the that is wotrthy of scrutiny is the expenses of Labour MPs between now and the general election. They can see now that their own personal gravy train is nearing the end of the line. Mr and Mrs Balls may not be needing the second home for much longer.
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Now my father was never what I would regard as political. He just did what he did well.
What I will say is that he was conceived out of wedlock and born in 1914 to a mother who lived in a poor house in Newton Abbot, in Devon.
He had a very hard upbringing by relatives in Plymouth.
Why am I telling you this, because when he retired from the Royal Navy in the mid sixties he received an MBE from the Queen and he had the rank of Lt. Cmdr.
Exactly which politician or political party enabled this man, brought up in poverty and hardship, to give me and my brothers and sisters the advantages which accrued to us.
I will say to you that nobody helped him, and there were millions like him, he did it because of duty, it was what was expected. He was a hard man but honest and fair, as honest and fair as it was possible to be.
He was on the Dorchester as she finally sank the Bismark and he watched sailors dying in their hundreds as she sped away leaving the German sailors to die a slow and terrible death. Images which stayed with him until the end of hs life.
Where am I going with this, you might ask. I will tell you.
We are coming to the end of the good times. People fought and died for me and my generation and we have seriously lost the plot. This is just so pathetic with politicians still sending young men to their deaths in foreign countries. With an economy which is soon to implode, where we have means testing of the poor, the old, and the infirmed. Where a labour government has to get everybody back to work. This is obscene, government has failed. Totally, miserably, abjectly failed and we do nothing but write our blogs.
This why I am getting angry. Because of the realisation that I have to keep asking of myself, what exactly was the point of all the deaths, all the wasted lives. It is not about poverty, we don't have the faintest idea about poverty, I mean real poverty, not only financial poverty but poverty of the soul. We have just so lost the plot.
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96 Eaton Rifle
I think the key point is that we have not received value for money from this government.
The Labour 1997 Manifesto:"New Labour will be wise spenders, not big spenders".
The reality is that government spending has increased by £1,229,100,000,000 since 1997, a 55% increase (these figures are adjusted lower to take account of inflation).
Quangos, PFI, politically correct initiatives, semi-legal wars, buying off Crewe and Nantwich voters, £400m for a Scottish Parliament building.........anything but allow people at the sharp end to spend the money themselves in schools, hospitals, police, army and prisons....
Our tax is high. Our cost of living increasing. Our public services un-reformed.
You should not accept such low performance from government Eaton Rifle. Get angry. Demand value for money. Do not allow any politician to lower your minimum expectations. So......... what would you like to see happen (irrespective of party politics).
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re: 111
When you put it into that context we are extremely lucky yeah. You say:
"This why I am getting angry. Because of the realisation that I have to keep asking of myself, what exactly was the point of all the deaths, all the wasted lives."
There isn't any point is there? The only reason people kill each other is for love, money or perceived entitlement to goods or land, which is really just a bit of soil. Human nature has remained unchanged but our values have changed irrevocably and I don't think there's any bringing them back.
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Good points Nick.
And I nearly had a heart attack when I read on the BBCweb site that Harriet Harman thinks that the outcome of the Glasgow East By-election 'is her moment' to run for the leadership.
Somebody, somewhere is just having a laugh surely?
From Blair to Brown to Harman? I think not. But it makes Blair to Brown to Balls much more likely.
Now, just where are the lifeboats?
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95: "It's not just the wasted money, as if that wasn't bad enough, it's the benefits-dependent underclass that they have created"
In 1997 Incap. Benefit was at 2.6 million, in the years preceding that rose at a rate of 100,000 a year. For the first two years of Labour, incap increased by a similar level. then for the last 8 years, it has decreased. hopefully and probably the recent measures will go further.
Unemployment is much lower.
How exactly have labour created a benefits-dependant underclass?
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but then again why waste my time. at least half of all postings on this blog is misinformed bigotry.
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'Yawning Gap'?
I know you must be sleepy getting up in the middle of the night to do the Today Programme, but perhaps there are more aspects to your headline that you perceive.
We yawn out of boredom and just maybe the media are, in this traditional silly season, struggling to fill their column inches!
We are not I think today in the position where the government is not listening in the way that Mrs Thatcher did not listen over the Poll Tax, but the criticism is that the government listens too quickly and changes tack over the 10p tax rate etc.
They are responding to the peoples wishes. The problem is that events have derailed the Chancellor/PM, and short of a miracle the whole World's economy is going into a period of retrenchment - other evidence is the collapse of the World Trade Talks over farm subsidies in the US and developing market access.
G. Bush is protecting his farmers again, just as he protects his gas guzzling drivers G. Brown is just swept along in his slipstream. (We must cut ourself free from the 'special relationship'!)
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re: 114
Balls? Naah, he's already way out of his depth in his current job. A job I doubt he got on merit... But if it helps administer a quick death to the mortally-wounded Labour I'm all for it!
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Post 115.
Answer:
Tax credits, child minding allowances, multiple pensioner goodies, child allowance...........and plenty of other schemes and state credits which I'v e heard about but can't remember!
Hopefully someone else will........help!
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re: 115
You mention incapacity benefit, but what about the other kinds? Where are your statistics from? You do understand that Labour's official figures are at best fudged and at worst outright lies? Look at how they milk schoolchildren to provide education statistics. Look at the rise of chav 'culture' where living on benefits is easier than working. It's become (for them at least) a desirable lifestyle choice! Whose policies made this happen?
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BBC News article on an announcement to have police officers in rough schools:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7531749.stm
OK fine if there's a surplus of police officers, but there aren't enough as it is so where will they come from? To attract people to the job they'll have to be paid more! But there's no money! I despair!
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re: 116
I'm afraid you're living in Labour La-La Land where it's all rainbows and lollipops all the time and Gordo the Happy Clown knows what he's doing. It's a magical happy place where every vegetable has its own quango and the more you tax the better things get. (Wish I lived there).
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I am reminded of the fact that John Major was meant to lose in1992. He didn't. This should be an object lesson to all MPs and pundits.
The guarranteed way to lose is not to compete because you think you've already lost. This more than anything else is the real danger to Labour.
Steve
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112 jonathan_cook
wrote
"....?1,229,100,000,000 since 1997, a 55% increase...". A 55% increase in relation to what?
You are still quoting figures at us that we cannot possibly understand. Government deals in very large amounts of money. We cannot judge what is waste and this site is not a reliable source of information.
We can tell though if our schools, hospitals and other infrastructure are decrepid and underfunded. We also know it costs money to correct that neglect. Much more than if spending had been kept at adequate levels in the first place.
How do you know what is value for money anyway? That surely is just your opinion.
Perhaps Tesco, Asda ,Morrisons, Aldi and Lidl* could diversify into politics. That might make you happy.
*others are available.
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#116 - moderateprogressive wrote:
'but then again why waste my time. at least half of all postings on this blog is misinformed bigotry.'
That would be the half you don't agree with, I take it. Perhaps a more pertinent question might be 'why waste our time?'
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re: 119
I'd list them if I could remember NorthernThatcherite but there's loads, and it's so difficult to unpick the reality from the lies and spin. Never forget: if a politician doesn't give a straight answer it's bad, but if they smile/laugh/smile and laugh/pretend to smile and laugh it's very very bad indeed lol
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119:
"child allowance" - 60 years old
"child minding allowances" - means that single mums can go to work, as it is financially worthwhile.
"tax credits" - provides fiscal incentive for leaving benefit and going in to low paid job. labour was heavily criticised for cutting single-parent benefit, all part of improving marginal tax rates. thats why incap benefit and unemployment have been falling.
"pensioners goodies" - some specifics? perhaps you are refering to the winter fuel allowance. those nasty socialists, trying to stop old people freezing in winter. lets vote in the tories.
how was your posting a relevant answer to mine?
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I don't know what's going on with the moderation this evening. First 470 comments disappear from Nick's previous blog now this! Come on Aunty Beeb, I love you but sort it out. Right I'm off to crack on with that weighty tome Infinite Jest (I'll finish it one day). Goodnight lefties and gentlemen, don't have nightmares about Broon!
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121 power_to.....
wrote.
.......OK fine if there's a surplus of police officers, but there aren't enough as it is so where will they come from?
There will never be "Enough" police officers. It is impossible. Enough police officers would be 1 police per person watching every citizen to make sure they are safe or don't commit a crime and you wouldn't like that. Again this is just your opinion. There are enough realistically.
I would suggest that Conservatives reducing police paperwork would not only put more bobbies on the beat but also free some up to be made redundant for cost cutting purposes. Just my opinion.
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Re #88 power_to_the_ppl
[10% tax] "I can't even provide a tentative theory as to why they did it "
2 possibilities apart from the blatent incompetence by "Duff" Gordon:
1. He genuinely thought he had done it so cleverly that nobody would notice the con and simply took umbrage when they did by going into denial mode.
2. It was on Bliar's insistence as the price for setting a departure date and Bliar knew he's too stubborn ever to admit the mistake, allowing Bliar to "get his retaliation in first", as it were.
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I thought moderation sounded a good idea (deleting obscenities etc).
The Beeb, however, have been appallingly inefficient.
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Calming down and letting things go is an easy technique to avoid difficulty but self-styled Masters of the Universe, journalists, and armchair pundits find it very, very hard to do. The media is unashamedly running flags up flagpoles, and the opposition and their friends and allies are bigging themselves up, but the worst danger for Labour is people losing their minds or getting desperate. Most of the criticism and attitude in this blog is, mostly, illusion. It doesn't matter.
The reality, as far as I can judge, is the media are being selective and running flags up poles, and the usual suspects start barking like mad dogs. We know who they are. Meanwhile, the opposition benches can't believe their luck as a wind of hysteria favours their ship. But, do any of these people withstand a long and cool policy and character analysis? I don't think so. And that's why focusing on goals and delivery is important. It cuts through that noise.
Britain's economic fundamentals have their wires crossed. Before we get into a discussion on the economy, politics, or the current media storm, this is the root of all things. It's why shaking off the clinging to failed ideologies and the past is so difficult for Britain. People claim to want better, and most people do, but a tiny minority can't get over themselves. Sound headline goals, a slow squeeze on bad business and communities, and patience is all it takes.
A decade of Thatcherism brought us asset stripping as a quick way to boost profits. Blairism brought us consumerism where bling bought us a temporary high. While deregulation and freedom were an opportunity, the British can't seem to grasp that and indulge the disaster hidden inside. By pressing for forward thinking investment, recognising all the talents, and having the resilience to get over the short term hump, a new and better Britain can emerge. But people have to want it.
Neither Bruce Anderson nor Polly Toynbee "get it". Sure, the appearance of big business acting like demigods and not having populism on your side isn't great, but they only have a narrow view. For them, it's always someone else's fault and never good enough unless red flags are draped over everything. This is classic dualism. However, Trevor Philips amazingly has a secret weapon up his sleeve. By wanting business success and fair pay to come within his remit, he's putting business, people, and government on the same page.
Gordon Brown has the numbers and the behind the scenes negotiation to build success, but the skills of a Hollywood scriptwriter instead of the tired political rally scriptwriters he's hired in the past, and getting out of the bunker and socialising with people will help provide a front end people may more readily grasp. He's slowly growing into that role, and if he demonstrates he can deliver, the country will probably swallow the other stuff. Being serious has its place but if Gordon learns not to give a shit people will supply the serious.
Go Gordon. Looking forward to the keynote, dude.
(Note to Barry Porter MP: If you think you're hard, how about you deselect yourself and allow me to volunteer as a candidate to stand against you? I mean, if you're so great and people love you so much, winning against a total nobody and outsider like me would be easy. I bet you don't . That's leadership, baby.)
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How much worse is it going to get until Labour MPs finally find the courage to do something about Gordon; I imagine David Cameron hopes it will take a little while longer yet, which it probably will. No potential new leader really wants to show their hand; the only credible candidate, David Miliband, cannot really wish to take over now in order to lead the party to its almost inevitable election defeat. Perhaps a caretaker leader will emerge who can lead them to an acceptable defeat and prepare the ground for the new leader to guide Labour back from the wasteland before the following election. The choice of the caretaker is quite important, the wrong candidate might not even be leader of the opposition if the polls get much worse and trying to win an election from third place would be a very difficult task; Jack Straw might manage the job, Harriet Harman might manage to lead them into the wilderness.
With this in mind, perhaps they would do better leaving Gordon where he is and just encourage him to call an early election before things get too much worse. If the economy continues to stagnate, at least they can blame it on the Conservatives.
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Re #94 Eatonrifle
"British Parliamentary term 5 YEARS, you know like 1992 to 1997."
A valid point, but that's the system failure of the archaic plurarity voting system last tinkered with in 1872 to make it less fair than before, and which is the least democratic in the EU.
Without electoral reform we will indeed have regular bouts of "strong leaders" who go on and on until "the other lot" have their go at wrecking everything.
Just compare that with Scotland, where the SP demonstrated that coalitions can work to the benefit of all and that minority government can be both stable and popular.
Without it, Cameron may win by such a margin that the reward for 13 years "in power" may be even more than the 18 years in the wilderness last time. That may even suit some of the Tories here despite probably signalling the end of the union, but it is simply daft that one party should control everything without effective checks and balances.
There is also the probability that if the Tories get in by a landslide they will simply forget about the unfairness of unfinished devolution to England until they're out of power again.
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I just noticed, David Miliband pretty much pitched the same thing I said yesterday. He is right. If Labour are to create success for Britain they have to get over themselves first, and if they're to avoid getting sucked into the tar pit they have to give the electorate a positive challenge to fill the time with.
The media are trying to suggest it's a play for the leadership but they've got it wrong. He's removing Gordon Brown as a target and taking on the political challenge in the country. This gets behind raising the profile of the common man succeeding and wipes phantom problems off the table.
By not falling into the oppositions trap of nitpicking and personalities, Labour is turning on a dime to 'detoxify' their leadership. The Conservative bubble will deflate accordingly, and the better quality policies and sentiments, and sense of hope Labour have to offer will create a compelling narrative.
I commented that David Cameron's fingers slipped from the crown a few months ago. Now, as the arrogance and emptiness of his own unreformed party and the warmed over policies of yesterday swing into focus, the Conservatives are about to be hammered.
That's Karma for you...
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We unfortunately have moved to "presidential" style leadership promoted by the media, without the public electing the Prime Minister.
This move has come about over the last 20 years but has manifested itself far more over the last 10 years with Blair but unfortunately for Brown who lacks charisma and was not even challenged for the leadership and the word banded by the press was Browns Coronation. This now has come back to bite.
Now we see Miliband publicly making his bid and could have another leader without a public election.
During all this happening, the public have become disillusioned with our politicians and are voting with their feet by not voting,
turnouts are down, party membership is down, spending by parties is up, donations are down, so the question must be asked where are we going?
Has the time come for a radical re think and for starters fixed term for Parliament say 4 years.
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Post 126
My basic point is that the state over the last 50 years (particularly when Labour has been in Government) has sought to offer MORE and MORE state funded credits, payments, benefits, allowances etc etc thus creating classes of people who have become DEPENDENT on the state!
The state should be small and have a QUALITY "safety net" role only!
The majority of the income earned by every hardworking person in the UK should be spent/saved at the discretion of the earner to the direct benefit of themselves and their families. Therein we will create a nation of independent and responsible families the lack of which has lead to "Broken Britian". The big nanny state "knows best" experiment, weilded out by successive Governments over the last 100 years has failed!
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David Milliband writes in the Guardian. Is he making a play for the leadership? Who knows, who cares?
The important issue is the complete failure to agree on World Trade. People who went to Seattle all those years ago will have their way, globalization is on the wane, protectionism is going to surge.
I know let's have a consultation on whether or not you want to lose your job. Let's build some aircraft carriers so as to prepare for war. We must be prepared. As for nuclear weapons if parliament had not voted to fund the programme all those scientists would have to be paid off. What does happen to nuclear scientists when we have no nuclear weapons, they get transferred to designing and constructing nuclear power stations?
There is a dark cloud on the horizon, the storm clouds are gathering and it will not be war as in WWI, or WWII, it will be different but the way we are going is just so like the days leading to the Great War. The politicians have failed and I don't think they have a clue.
I know that I may be seen as going over the top with my prediction but whoever thought that the destruction of the World Trade Center would happen. When the American election is over the politicians will have to deliver, only they won't be able to, all this talk of change, you cannot be serious.
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Hey intelligent ones. Go to your local library and look up Hansard for the period around August 1914.
Why?
Because you will see that just after the Great War was declared they went on holiday. Yes, I did not know either. The war was so irrelevant that within a matter of days parliament adjourned. There was no more threat of civil war in Ireland, that had been delayed because of the crisis.
Look into the mobilization of the belligerent nations and who do you think mobilized first. Why it was the great Winston Churchill who did not disperse the Royal Navy after a review, just in case you understand. The navy started the blockade of Germany the day that war was declared.
I could go on but be afraid, very afraid, because the politicians will do anything to save their skins. They have failed.
We are fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and training troops all over the world to do our dirty work. The world is slowly spinning out of control and the Armagheddon some of us expect is soon to be upon us.
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Looking at all the most recent posts above I am struck by the simple thought that a collection of just 400 people (Labour MPs) have between them well and truly mucked up a nation, its economy, its society, its standing in the world and its people.
NEVER HAS SO MUCH BEEN DONE TO SO MANY BY SO FEW!
Well done you bunch of gutless, self interested idiots - you are all as bad as each other! You are a collection of two faced hypocrits and I wouldn't trust any of you with the church collection plate or taking the dustbins out!
Have the decency to sack your foolish and incompetent leader and then call a General Election - think of your constituents for once in your miserable lives and let the citizens of the UK have their say!
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Nick,
It seems that one or more of your posters continues to believe that GB will not only survive but will go on to lead us for an awful long time. I accept that everyone is entitled to their opinion, however, it is hardly new or original to have the same poster(s) post the same comments no matter the nature of the topic being discussed.
The debate is surely about the ability or otherwise of journalists to state what they are being told in private rather than the public comments. I would appreciate your take on the actual events over the last 24 hours whereby Harman seems to have waited for Broons holiday before making a fairly important policy statement or even the contribution of Milliband in the Guardian. What do these mean for Brown?
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If the article by David Miliband in today's Guardian is the best newLabour comeback they can mount then the opposition parties have nothing to worry about.
The same old trite nonsense about explaining themselves to the electorate; how has it taken so long to realise that their supreme arogance (and that of their apologists) has tuned us all off.
Blaming the economy on the Americans again and agian and David Miliband is still at it. Is no one ever responsible for their own actions ever in this NewLabour blame cultre-land?
This ridiculous insistence that it''s always someone else's fault is at the heart of the newLabour sickness and Miliband reveals himself to be yet anotuher advocate of this docrine.
He hangs himself with his insignificant words, I sincerely hope Polly and her Toynbees get behind him and force a leadership elcetion and then we can see for sure how all NewLabour are cut from the same cloth; shallow, blameless, apparatchik, media obsessed, idealogically bankrupt and mangerially incompetent.
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#140
I do not blame just labour MPs.
David Davis resigned over the issue of 42 days. He has shown the way to others, if you so disagree with what is going on in parliament and feel that your electorate is no longer being represented then get them to endorse you.
If I was David Caeron at the next PM question time then I would not bother to ask any questions!
In fact MPs might as well show their disdain by not even bothering to turn up. When the Speaker says questions for the Prime Minister, then just get up and walk out. You might as well you never get an answer anyway.
The only questions he does answer are the planted ones where he can make announcements of government 'successes'. Oh, and to announce the names of all those poor souls who have paid the ultimate price for the appalling decision to go to war. An illegal war!
This is the worst parliament for at least a hundred years and it is about time that it was shown the door. Go now, all of you, just go.
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T A Griffin: "He should have spoken out against the war. It is not good enough for any of these people to still be in control. They have blood on their hands and no amount of trying to change the agenda will work. The sooner they are tried for an illegal war, a war of aggression and war crimes then the sooner we can move on. Until that time I will never forgive them for what they done in my name."
Hear hear!!! All the other incompetence, greed, arrogance, sleaze, over regulation, spying on innocent citizens and malisciously broken promises are mere politics compared to being a willing and active participant in the execution of the most serious crimes against humanity.
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I saw on the BBC this morning that Gordon has decided to take his family to the beach today. There will be a human cordon around him and his family and thus , that section of the beach will be a "no go" area to the general public. I'm wondering if this is going to be more for Gordon's protection than anyone else's....?!!
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GB's current problems are bizarre in many ways as the parliamentry labour party seems to be surprised that he is not able to connect with the public. Surely they ought to have been able to see that throughout the time that he was behind Blair, it was Blair that was the public face of New Labour - let's face it for a long time he was an asset. Brown was seen as perhaps the brains behind the operation but was only ever rolled-out when an austere, serious front was required - Campbell could see that. As much as I dislike the man, will be interested to hear his real comments after GB has gone!
Gordon doesn't do compassion and empathy and in this media demanding age this is critical.
Surely all the bright Labour hopes for the future must recognise that the next election is lost. Labour's best hope is surely to write this off and get rid of Brown now and replace him with an interim candidate - eg Jack Straw, with a view that he will lose in 2010 but will claw-back some of what is lost, similar to the Tories with Michael Howard giving way to Cameron
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To all red flag wavers:
Here is an admission by you own party that everything your party has done in the last 11 years has been a failure from a very senior member of the party in your own partys paper the Grauniad
Setting out his vision for the future, Mr Miliband says "times demand a radical new phase".
He ends: "New Labour won three elections by offering real change, not just in policy but in the way we do politics. We must do so again
The only reason you would need to "Do so again" is if you have failed
So as you have failed for 11 years do you really think the electorate will give you another chance?
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"wasn't the outcry about Labour's "Toff" campaign a case of "political correctness" but when it suits why let hypocracy get in the way."
No you are clearly wrong there. The outcry was NOT political correctness, but the natural outcry caused by the offence in being lectured at and spoken down to for 10 years by a politically correct establishment, harranging the population into what we can believe and what we cannot believe, into what are acceptable thoughts and what are not, only to then be faced with LABOUR's gross hypocracy as they completely did a 180 degree u-turn on all their beliefs to prejudisciously attack a person because of the condition of their birth.
If you seriously do not think Labour pushed political correctness, then I suppose that you have never even heard of Harriet Harman either? Do you actually follow politics at all eaton?
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According to the BBC who are getting veryexcited about a leadership challenge. It looks as if the Schoolboy look for political leaders is 'IN' this season. If Gordon was challenged and Milliband won the vote, not only would there be 3 main leaders looking like schoolboys,it would be Dave Vs Dave at the next election. But what if Davis challenges Cameron?Wasn't that what the phony election is about. Who will be our next pm Gordon,Harriet, Dave,Dave,Dave or Nick(Clegg). Isn't political coverage fun, radical dude this whole politcal scene is book. ;o)
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124 dhwilkinson.
The £1,229,100,000,000 is the increase in spending by government since 1997.
Of course more money needed to be spent on public infrastructure. The complaint is the lack of value for money achieved.
One issue is that so little money actually gets to the sharp end of public infrastructure. Quangos are a very good example, we pay for a vast army of westminster 'red-tape-mongers' and the money has not been spent directly on schools, hospitals etc
Blair and Brown in 1997 promised a 'bonfire of the Quangos' - instead spending on Quangos shot up by 55% between just 2003-2006 from £79.6Bn to £123.8Bn an annual increase of £44Bn compared to the annual defence budget of £34Bn. Of course the government has stopped publishing the figures spent on Quangos now - could they be afraid that they can't demonstrate reasonable value for money achieved?
Of course tales of rapidly worsening government waste are rife, i.e.
- The NHS in 10 years has gone from 10 beds per manager to 5 beds per manager. We can also catch MRSA and Cdiff more readily since hospitals no longer operate separate wards for patients with these conditions.
If you are genuinely interested - and you should be - I assume you pay tax - you should read a book which despite its title also puts the boot into previous Conservative Governments called "Squandered - How Gordon Brown is wasting over one trillion pounds of our money" by David Craig.
If you are (understandably) too squeemish to face the full horror of the governments ineptitude, then you can get a tiny flavour in artcile likes this:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3953922.ece
Or you could have a look around the Tax Payers Alliance research:
http://tpa.typepad.com/home/research-by-the-.html
DHwilkinson.......... I'm afraid it is time for good and honest loyal Labour voters to take their heads out of the sand and examine the governments record.
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145 shelling
Did the article say if the cordon around GB is far enough out to prevent ripe tomatoes or rotten eggs reaching him.
This reminds me of being on a beach in Corsica where a group of Germans put up a tape around "their area". Needless to say we entered the non-German area via the sea, only for them to all move towards us and try and force us out. Being British it had no effect on us whatsoever, other than an audible rendition of Rule Britannia!!!"
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147 pot_kettle
"To all red flag wavers:
Here is an admission by you own party that everything your party has done in the last 11 years has been a failure from a very senior member of the party in your own partys paper the Grauniad......."
I wouldn't get to excited it says nothing of the sort. This leadership election thing is just speculation by an overexcited News media and over excited bloggers. I would suggest that if they cut back on the coffee and avoided food colourings. We may get a more rational picture.
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"tax credits" - provides fiscal incentive for leaving benefit and going in to low paid job. labour was heavily criticised for cutting single-parent benefit, all part of improving marginal tax rates. thats why incap benefit and unemployment have been falling.
TAX CREDITS?? You have the gall to defend the tax credit system? A system designed from the outset to place more people than ever before into benefit dependency?
An honest advert for tax credits:
--------------------------------------
Here's a nice idea for the poor whom we care so much about. When they get a nice little job and earn a bit of money, we will over tax them, but it's not all bad, because then, we well have them fill out a highly intrusive form telling us all their personal and private financial details, then we will give them their tax back. In fact we will probably give them too much back, or we might not, who knows? Because we don't!But if we give them too much, we will let them build up a debt and then we have got them for decades as they will have ot pay us back, even if they were honest and it is OUR mistake, they still have to pay. That way, they are dependent on US and we get to pry into every aspect of people's private lives. Then we can control them more easily and manipulate them through the fear of losing their credits.
---------------------------------------
Here's a better idea. DO NOT TAKE THE TAX OFF THE POOR IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! Raise the tax allowances instead. Its easier and cheaper and much more accurate and it leaves the poor with their dignity intact. Why does this government Dispise self reliance? Because they cannot CONTROL that!
Tax credits extended state dependency on benefits from the poor to include everyone to the mid level middle classes. I know people on a decent wage that claim working tax credits. People that would have been earning way too much to claim any benefits under the tories. (in other words, people who WOULD have been self reliant)These people are not better off than if the personal tax allowances were raised. Amuch easier, better and more dignified solution.
Tax credits???? AAAAGGGHHHH!!!!!
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QUOTE: "...A Moderator's job is... House Rules... not broken... A Mesage will not be removed for any other reason.." END QUOTE
Errr! So, why was my Comment on Gordon Brown NOT Published?
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Re #140 badsworthboy
"Looking at all the most recent posts above I am struck by the simple thought that a collection of just 400 people (Labour MPs) have between them well and truly mucked up a nation, its economy, its society, its standing in the world and its people."
True, but whenever Labour call an election they will most likely be replaced by a collection of about 400 Tory MPs who will end up doing much the same, whatever the ideals of a brave few, until they're at rock bottom as they were in '64 and '79, with the replacements for strong leaders (Supermac then Mrs T) not being up to the job because their predecessors had purged their party of serious rivals.
Is it not blindingly obvious that it is the system that is at fault by allowing such power to be put in the hands of one person? In the current instance, a new low I believe, less than 25% of the electorate gave all that power to Bliar before he passed it on to "Duff" Gordon.
Our non-constitution simply has too few checks and balances on the PM, even if you believe our creaking old electoral system is a model the rest of the world should have followed, which of course I do not.
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re: 153, purpleDogzzz
Well said.
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I've had enough of reading the newspapers, listening to political commentaries and watching news programmes on TV. Like so many of the normally erudite and intelligent bloggers on this board, I have descended into schoolboy rebellion, mocking teacher and composing limericks. This, I suppose, is a healthy way to survive a lunatic regime, unless one has the guts to revolt. The finest cabaret and satirical writing arose in the thirties before the nazis completely slammed down on the opposition. All we can do is act stupider than our so-called leaders, try to get on with our lives and keep our heads down. Somehow I think that 42 days detention rule will come back to haunt many of us, and I can see the dustbin gestapo busily scrambling through our garbage. I would place the most filthy, revolting objects in my dustbin, but I don't, since I know that those who crawl through rubbish like maggots, do not have the normal inhibitions and standards as teh rest of us. They would just plough through it, because they are so vile they couldn't get any dirtier.
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@152
Sorry but that is exactly what it says.
If what has been done is not a failure i.e. working, then why would you need to change it?
I wasnt refering to a leadership challenge I clearly said that it was an admission of failure in policy.
Frankly the leadership question is mute. It really doesnt matter at this stage whether the leader is changed or not, the next election will be lost by Labour and they will not be forming the next Government.
Lets have a Motor racing analogy today. Having run off the track the question now isnt whether a change of driver can regain the lead but whether the time lost in the pits having a driver change can be made up enough to get back into the points and remain in the champioship to fight another day.
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So the end game for Gordon has begun:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jul/29/davidmiliband.gordonbrown
Milliband is positioning himself for the top job.
The Labour-ferret-fight begins.....
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T A Griffin wrote: "I know that I may be seen as going over the top with my prediction "
I do not think that you are. There is a very real possibility of Global Nuclear War before next spring.
There are many brainwashed gullible fools who rely on the BBC or the SUN for their headline news and they are cluelessly calling for Iran's (unproven) nuclear weapon's program to be eradicated. (They can only enrich uranium to 3%, NOT the 98% needed for weapons, AND no amount of additional centrifuges of the kind that they are KNOWN to have will increase that percentage, all it will increase is the amount of Uranium enriched to 3%)
Israel has stated that they are not prepared to live under an Iranian nuclear threat, despite having the whole middle east and beyond live under an Israeli nuclear threat for decades now, and Israel will never allow the IAEA to inspect their facilities at Dimona.
Israel has already stated that they are willing to use nuclear bunker busters to destroy Iran's nuclear facilities. (except that they do not know where all the facilities are, especially if they are using the same level of intelligence that brought us the Iraq WMD non threats) and they have held practice drills for such an event. This is considerably more dangerous to Iran, than a mistranslation of something Ahmadinejad said in using a historic quote from someone else regarding removing Zionism from the pages of time. (not unlike Brown calling on the removal of the Mugabe regime) is to Israel. Just imagine for a moment if Iran were to do anything like as provocotive as Israel's nuclear dummy runs. That would no doubt have Tehran turned to green glass.
The timing for such a pre-emptive nuclear attack on another soveriegn nation would be after the American elections in November, but before (the likely) inauguration of President Clinton (after Obama is assasinated)
The main issue here though, is not what Iran would do, but after the recent signing of very extensive energy deals by Russia with Iran, what would Russia do?
The United States has stated that any attack on Israel will be treated as a direct attack on the United States as Israel is a strategic partner for the US. This in itself in not news nor is it contraversial.
What has been less reported is the announcements by the Russian Foreign Minister and the head of Russia's Military, that any attack upon Iran will be treated as a direct attack on Russia, as Iran is a strategic partner of Russia. They also added that any nuclear strike on Iran WILL be met immediately by a nuclear response from Russia, and they, my friends, have LOTS of nuclear weapons, and very sophisticated delivery systems too.
Just which political pygmy in the labour party is capable of dealing with politics on this scale and with this level of delicacy?
There are NONE in the labour party with the statecraft required for the job. NONE! There are prescious few in the tories either.
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Re #154 timidiaint
"Errr! So, why was my Comment on Gordon Brown NOT Published?"
Because the mods never got the chance to see it. Your post itself almost certainly broke the parser's rules on HTML coversion.
See my Post #94 on Nick's Winds of political change thread.
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mikepko
Now, there's a thought! Ripe tomatoes and rotten eggs. What a great idea, although I'm sure we'd be done for assault if we threw those at him.
Seeing the local news yesterday, it seems that the people of Southwold are none too pleased about it either. The human cordon would have to be pretty big - all those security blokes must be costing us a small fortune. I wonder who owns the house he's staying at!
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Reality check:
The government is busy pressing industry for a more forwards drive and creating the conditions for new industries. This is clearly better than Tory plans to pour money into charities that just hand hold the unemployed.
Hospital managers are hugely down on the numbers the Tories left when they were in office. Many of the managers today are actually the same head nurses who used to be called Matron in an earlier age. Without them the NHS wouldn't work.
Hazel Blears has learned to smile and Harriet Harman has discovered she has a spine. In the meantime, you guys are rigid minded and living in the past. I suspect, most of you know this but can't take the heat. C'mon. Get some perspective.
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#153
exceptionally well put, Sir.
When is this government going to shut up about 'lifting people out of poverty'? Lifting them out of what? It's self righteous rubbish.
God forbid that anyone should lift themselves up of their own volition and actually get a job, support their family, entertain their mates occasionally and take a holiday.
The dependancy culture has gone mad. Good luck to David Miliband if he thinks he can spend the next few months defending the Newlabour track record of encouraging sloth.
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Re #149 dhwilkinson
There would undoubtedly be an aura of a beauty contest about it in England, but Salmond's uglier mug will almost certainly win the day in Scotland.
I don't think the Daves will appeal to Welsh voters either, but I have no recent poll evidence to support my hunch.
With few Scottish Labour MPs returned and Cameron at least having no track record of lies and spin he probably already has it in the bag from English voters, with Clegg standing a good chance of being the runner-up.
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#132
Barry Porter died in 1996
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Pot_Kettle, you could also add what John Prescott said about EVERY member of the PLP. There is not one person amongst them that is remotely capable as Brown.
The vast majority of people, including many loyal labour supporters now recognise that Brown is NOT capable of leading the party or the country in any way that benefits both the party and the country. The only reason we are in this thread is because the entire nation, from the tory shires to the inner city labour heartlands, have seen enough of Brown and believe that he is NOT capable.
Prescott has just admitted that nobody else in the party is even that good.
Basically he is admitting that none of the labour party MPs are fit for office, right there. NONE of them.
So why should we vote labour if their own seniour figures admit that they are not fit for office?
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Browndov Sorry to return to the last blog on which we excanged views
You remarks concerning Conrad Black although may be laudable are a little out of touch with the real world if a man/woman is convicted and sentenced in a court of law then in the eyes of the law he's/she's guilty if he/she then on appeal proves that he/she is not guilty then fair enough, what your attempting to get me to say is that they ar'nt guilty until his/her appeal, I am sure that all the media would have a different view to you and they have to be very careful.
All this. does not convey any idea of what I think about 42 days or ID cards, you assume too much.
As for your remarks regarding the liberal party who changed there name when four Labour MPs created an alliance with the liberals, I think that your splitting hairs for the sole purpose of winning an argument, many people refer to the Labour party some to the NuLabour party, whats that about a duck. I wont continue with this as it belonged on another blog but I was unable to answer before it was changed
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Re #153 purpleDogzzz
Good post re Tax Credits as far as it went, but even crazier is that they don't work fairly because the claim process is not automatic and it also increases government expenditure by employing extra bean counters and assessment monitors.
Much better would be a single PAYE process where the tax system itself would pay out as well as receive.
Only trouble is that incompetence in IT project design and implementation seems to be this government's forte, so they would probable make a total dog's breakfast of it.
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Robinjd You may, but I suspect not. read my reply to you regarding sleaze, you know how I'm quite sure.
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re: 157, Phoenixarisen, ;)
Nu-Labour's regime is unjust
But soon they'll all self-combust
They'll just never geddit
They can stuff their "tax credits"
And their lies of no boom and bust
re: 158
To use your motor racing analogy, the Nu-Labour soultion would be to impose a 20 second penalty on all the other cars and then reduce the number of laps to complete for themselves.
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@167
A point well added and I think i mentioned it in the blog that never was.
I think that Winston Smith work for Auntie Beeb at the moment
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Interesting that Harman should say that "when a woman says 'no' she means, 'no'.
Did Margaret Thatcher mean No, when she famously said she wasn't standing for the leadership of the Conservative Party in 1975?
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re: 163
My family work in the NHS and they see the results everyday of Labour's overweening desire for control and unnecessary middle management interference. A routine operation to remove a mole/cyst whatever is broken down and registered as several separate operations in order to make up the numbers to fill these silly quotas. You wouldn't believe how much time and money is wasted by Nu-Labour's political meddling. They haven't got a clue. Trim down management? Fix the NHS? Physician heal thyself.
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Here's some more sport
Harriet Harman, denied claims that she responded to the Glasgow East byelection defeat last week by saying "My time has come", an assertion that she can succeed Brown. Harman was fuming over the report on the Times website, saying: "I did not say to a special adviser — or to anyone else — my time has come.
No too right what she said was "This is my moment"
Thats one from the pages of grandantidote. When I said Brown had said "No more boom and bust" he said Brown had said "No More TORY boom and bust"
So come on red flag wavers split this hair if you will
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Mandelson today
"It would be a strange government, wouldn't it, if there was no one amongst its higher ranks who was not sufficiently qualified to be a future leader," he said.
Presscott Sunday
He said no potential successor had the "right skills" to replace the PM.
Which one is correct red flag wavers?
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"Here's a better idea. DO NOT TAKE THE TAX OFF THE POOR IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! Raise the tax allowances instead. Its easier and cheaper and much more accurate and it leaves the poor with their dignity intact. Why does this government Dispise self reliance? Because they cannot CONTROL that!"
Tax credits extended state dependency on benefits from the poor to include everyone to the mid level middle classes. I know people on a decent wage that claim working tax credits. People that would have been earning way too much to claim any benefits under the tories. (in other words, people who WOULD have been self reliant)These people are not better off than if the personal tax allowances were raised. Amuch easier, better and more dignified solution."
i agree with a proportion of that. i would appreciate higher personal allowances rather than tax credits because i would personally benefit. there is one rather large problem with that though. means tested tax credits means money can be given to low paid. this is very expensive, i cant remember exactly how much, but its a lot. higher personal allowances would benefit everyone, not merely the poor, and so the gov.t could only afford to do so by raising it a little. hence the poor would not benefit so much.
as for self-reliance, they are designed to get the unemployed off benefits and into work. thats why incap. benefit and unemployment counts are down. and poverty is down. whats not to like?
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163 Charle_E_Hardwidge
What???
NHS staff have increased by 20% between 1997 and 2007 (good thing - matrons, nurse etc), whereas the number of managers has increased from 20,000 to 40,000.
During the same period the number of beds in the NHS has decreased from 250,000 to less than 180,000 (5 beds per manager). We no longer segragate MRSA and CDiff patients, so surprise, surprise, large numbers of people die of hospital aqcuired infections.
A value for money measure for the amount spent would check to see if survivability was dramatically increasing. It is not. Here is one example:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Today Milliband says that the fight back has to start with 'winning the argument over Labours record'.......... sorry chum...... we know the record and it ain't pretty.
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@171
I dont think they can do that in this race as the race stewards are the electorate.
Unless of course they declare a state of emergency and refuse an election, that would be very Mugabesque.
The last person that tried that was Nikki Lauda at a dangerously wet track where he refused to race. James Hunt raced won and went on to win the championship by 1 point.
I maybe using poetic licence on this point :-)
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Re #163 Charles_E_Hardwidge
If you are as well informed as you claim, publish some statistics on hospital managers and matrons quoting sources rather than your usual unsupported claims.
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re: 179
I like that wet-track scenario, I think that's pretty accurate! But if Labour were to race they'd better get an army of mechanics out (wait, correction--- one very good mechanic) to prevent their wheels falling off after the first 10 seconds! I can foresee a Wacky Races-style Dick Dastardly scenario here too, where they'll stop right before the finish line to set up a Tory-Trap, but it'll backfire and they'll end up being catapulted into the horizon (with a little cinematic sparkle befoer they disappear for good!)
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Re #166 jonties
Be kind to Charles_E_Hardwidge. He's probably still in shock after "Saint" Polly Toynbee opined that "Duff" Gordon's finished on Newsnight.
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179 / 171et al....
If this was motor racing.... Labour have made the wrong tyre choices:
- They got rid of the 'slicks' (Blair) when it started raining.
- The put on 'intermediates' (Brown) but it is pouring down and although he can't stay on the track he refuses to come in to change to full 'wets' (Milliband)
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Re #168 grandantidote
If you want to continue that particular discussion, post it on the correct thread and I will respond it detail. I note that you did not read my previous posts and it's you "splitting hairs".
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#160
I could not agree more with your comments.
Like yourself I have pencilled in the period after the American election in November and the inaugeration of the new President.
I do not agree with your comments re. Mrs Clinton, I cannot see her as being the Obama running mate.
However, as you quite rightly say it is probable that an attack will take place by Israel. I hope that I am wrong, but I somehow don't think so. Armagheddon, that will shut everybody up, how on earth will the NHS cope.
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180 Brownedov - ref your request to Charels-E-Hardwidge to post some statistics........
I did publish more detailed statistics at post 178 - but this then got mysteriously 'reffered to the moderators'.......
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@183
Excellent add to that the fact that they have wasted 50% of their fuel (taxs) driving through gravel traps(quangos) and we have the full picture as to why they wont lead another lap, win the race or be around to compete in the champioship (as oposition)
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TAG, : "I do not agree with your comments re. Mrs Clinton, I cannot see her as being the Obama running mate."
That's OK Tag, no problem. That is merely guesswork on my behalf, as I am taking soundings from an "alternative" community on the internet that have a strange ability to predict things with a canny level of accuracy. I am hearing a lot about rumours of an assasination of Obama and we have not had the Democratic Convention yet. Also looking at the bodycount from the Clinton years, well, let's just say that she has NOT given up her ambition just yet.
The assasination maybe nothing more than wishfull thinking by right-wingers or just the fervant imagination of conspiracy theorists, but I have come across it quite a lot from people who seem to really know how the game is played.
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Re #186 jonathan_cook
If you published stats there may be a copyright question mark. Often better just to quote a URL.
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PS to my too hasty #189
If you post a URL make sure it's not broken!
178 is back without the link
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Nick,
I take it you'll be exposing these deceitful politicians during your next broadcast then?
We, the public, have a right to know which of them can't be trusted - who would you be serving by keeping this info to yourself?
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188:
please seek medical help. you are clearly unwell.
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"Nick,
I take it you'll be exposing these deceitful politicians during your next broadcast then?
We, the public, have a right to know which of them can't be trusted - who would you be serving by keeping this info to yourself?"
I seriously doubt it Mr_E_Man. I agree with your sentiment on this, but in reality, IF Nick revealed names, then he would be shunned totally by those who want to use leaks as a way of manipulating the agenda. MP's would refuse to talk to him on and off the record and he would be finished as a journalist. Off the record briefings are ofton the only way to know what is really happening and get the leads for real stories.
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nick I am really tired of the same Tory rheteric day after day with nothing new to say, its the same old pseudonyms pumping out the same old anti government proTory rubbish and constantly boring us with their rather childish rhymes that only themselves and one or to of their loyal followers find remotely funny its even become popular amongst these people to give credence to mugabwe by continuously comparing him to Gordon Brown, which apart from being totally untrue and particularly offensive which I guess is their aim, it does nothing to help the people of zimbabwe,
Perhaps a few of these uncaring people should be shipped out to zimbabwe for a nice little six month holiday they would be crying to come back to Gordon in a very short time.
I am afraid that the media and most of the bloggers on this thread are on a self perpetuating feeding frenzy. every statement about anything from the government is twisted and turned to what they want to be the truth , dont they call that spin, no it cant be, only Labour uses spin they invented it, along with stealth taxes, we had never heard of these things before, well the honest ones that remember the Tory years strangely remember spin and stealth taxes but that doesn't fit in with what these people want to believe today.
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188 purpledogzzz What sort of a twisted mind have you got, your information regarding a prospective assassination on Barrack Obama has not got one ounce of verification and your implication that Hilary Clinton is waiting in the wings is appalling.
even to suggest that it might be wishfull thinking on behalf of right wingers diminishes one faith in the democratic system.
The wise people you mention, makes one wonder who your playmates are and how close to them you are for them to convey this sort of information to you.
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@194
Get off of your high horse grandantidote.
If you had been blogging in 1997 you would have been having much the same gleeful days that we are having now.
If you dont agree with particular points or analogies please feel free to refute them as untrue.
To a great extent I sympathise with your postition, it must be difficult to arise everyday and have to defend the indefensible.
Lets face it the reason we can use the same rhetoric and psuedonyms everyday is because the Labour party and the red flag wavers continue to give us the amunition.
If they actually delivered on any of the promises they have made we wouldnt have the munitions to fire at them. For 8 years or so the munition dumps were well hidden (llike the WMD in Iraq) Unlike Iraq we have now found yours and boy are we gonna use them against you.
If you ask nicely a such a loyal servant as yourself may get a position next to Gordon in his bunker
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GA
I agree with you that stealth taxes weren't "invented" by Labour, but they sure have made use of them since they came into power. There are more stealth taxes under Labour than any other government in history. I think that's what people are complaining about, myself included. It will only be a matter of time before we get taxed on the air we breathe, and I'm sure there is a government committee somewhere trying to figure out a way to do it.
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@197
Not the air you breath in as such but the carbon in the cardon you breath out.
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@ 192
you can believe anything you like, I am glad to say that is freedom.
I know and trust my sources more than I do the BBC. They were right when the BBC was fawning over Blairs blatant lies about WMD, my sources were telling me that Iraq had destroyed their WMD capability by the mid 1990's and there would be no WMD found. This was BEFORE the invasion of 2003 by the way.
They told me that oil would rise this year to over $140.oo per barrel. They told me that in 2004.
They told me that Russia and Georgia may end up at war over South Ossetia and they are warning about the high risk and a possibility (NOT certainty) that we will have a nuclear war before the next president is inaugurated.
BTW, Hillary has NOT pulled herself out of that race and there are many democrats still seeking to overturn Obama's pledged delegates at the Democratic Convention. My sources tell me that they had overturned about 20 delegates as of the end of last month.
These sources have been correct in many many other situations on subjects that the BBC scoff at or refuse to cover altogether.
While the BBC was reporting that the Solomon Brothers Building had collapsed, when it was still standing in the shot behind them, my sources were already trying to find out what happened at NORAD to allow large, slow commercial airliners to wander through American defence airspace for up to 80 minutes unhindered by the most sophisticated air defences on the planet in clear breach of their own standard operational procedure. Only discovering that the defence secretary had himself authorised a change of standard procedure in the June of 2001. A change that prevented the USAF from challenging the hijacked aircraft. No "mainstream" media in the world is touching the hot potato that Don Rumsfeld's change directly allowed the 9/11 attacks to succeed. Whether that was an accidental consequence of that change, or deliberate intention of the change? I will leave that for others to debate.
Back to Obama. I am NOT saying that Obama WILL be assasinated, but it IS one possibility, and it is one rumour that is doing the rounds and is being taken seriously. Hopefully if this rumour gets MORE coverage, then it may pursuade the people plotting his assasination to think twice and call it off.
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@195 "democratic system."
Since WHEN di the USA have a democratic system? They never ever have. It is a constitutional republic and the electoral college system guarantees that a small minority of electors select the President from a pre-vetted list of elitist puppets.
Do NOT look to the USA for democracy, there is NONE!
There is an elaborate charade played out for the supine and complicit mainstream media to fool the slumbering gullible masses though.
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@ 195, the fact that you even could believe for a second that the USA has a democratic system, shows that you do not understand the first thing about real politics.
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If you think that the BBC are accurate or fair or balanced, then why were they just fined £400,000 for flagship shows such as Comic Relief and Children in Need as well as the Jo Whiley and Russell Brand radio shows
The regulator said: "Ofcom considered that these breaches of the (broadcasting) code were very serious.
"In each of these cases the BBC deceived its audience by faking winners of competitions and deliberately conducting competitions unfairly."
That they would use children in need as a method of deceiving the public is attrocious, but no, carry on trusting "auntie" people, they would not mislead you? Would they?
I suggest that misleading the public is their central purpose!
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Right that's enough truth from me. The brainwashed labour supporters cannae tak it anymooor!
I leave you all with this thought.
" "
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184 Browndov the post is gone. If their is a way to get back onto it I will be delighted to carry on with our debate, let me know.
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Face it lefties, Labour have made a pig's ear of everything, they've taxed too much, destroyed our freedoms and taken us for granted, they've made a mess of Britain with unworkable centralising policies and they'll be kicked out like they deserve.
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203 purple dogzzz 202 I completely agree with.hard not to since it has just been on BBC news,
Between 139 TAG and 160 you and TAG have not only predicted a war fairly soon but your telling us that there is a very strong expectation of armageddon in the spring, also that it seems very likely that Barrack Obama will be assassinated before he can take office, this strong team of advisors do they work in Hollywood or are they at pinewood?,
Other than the above203 the most sensible thing you have to say is your last sentence in 203. I wrote once before in answer to your post,
"your too far out for me man" nothings changed.
I'll post to you next summer after armageddon.
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160 Purpledogzzz, Hardly worth bothering about Gordon or David or anyone else for that matter with armageddon due shortly,
Best if we all go out and spend what we've got on booze and debauchery while were still here.
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I NEVER said that there would be armageddon, in fact I never even used that word in my comment at all.
be BERY clear about what i am saying, becuase I am very careful about what and how far I go in my assertions.
I said that there is a serious risk of global nuclear war between the US election in November and the inauguration in January.
Many senior members (and former members) of the US administration have claimed publically in the past few months, that if the Democrats win the election, then they should attack Iran.
Recently this retoric has been reduced somewhat which has alarmed the Israeli Government. The Israeli Government has stated loud and clear as often as they can that they will not live under a nuclear threat from Iran. They have performed dummy runs of attacks on Iran, reminding people that they have "form" as they destroyed Iraq's nuclear reactor in the 1980's.
The most likely time for any attack on Iran's nuclear facilities (which are currently being constructed by Russian manpower) would be most LIKELY (Not certain) to occur between the US election and the inauguration in order to trap the incoming administration into the policy.
What NOBODY is discussing is the elephant in the room. What would Russia's response to a nuclear attack against it's strategic energy ally Iran be?
Come on grandantidote? You who is so brainwashed and out of touch with reality that you believe that the USA is a democracy!!! What will Russia do if their plant at Beshir is nucked and their senior experts in nuclear power killed?
I really really hope that I am wrong. I remember having very similar debates on forums throughout 2002. I remember writing that I hope I am wrong and that the invasion of Iraq, when it happens will be swift, hardly a shot fired and the troops greated on a carpet of flowers as liberators and large stocks of WMD located to justify the whole thing. Reconstruction to benefit the Iraqi people should be quickly undertaken and not for the sole profit of foreign contractors at the expense of the Iraqi people.
Instead I KNEW for a fact that there was NO WMD and that although the initial destruction of the old regime in Iraq would only last a few weeks, that the war would continue for years and years killing, maiming and displacing millions of innocent Iraqis for a lie and that no WMD would be found. Reconstruction would be a massive catalogue of fraud benefitting crooked friends of the bush regime and the country's infrastructure would remain worse than under the barbaric rule of Saddam.
I still wish that I had been wrong about that, but I wasn't!
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Re #204 grandantidote
The posts are all still there. Just go to the top of this page (press Home) and on the right you'll see all the latest NR threads listed under "Being Discussed Now". The one we're on is "Sore political heads" and my last reply to you is currently the last post on it (press End then PgUp).
I have to visit the real world tomorrow so may not get back to you until Friday.
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Now that we have had the announcement that Ehud Olmert is to stand down in September, I would say PRAY that Benjamin Netanyahu does not become the next leader of Israel.
Netanyahu has become more and more in league with the extremists who are pushing very hard for a nuclear attack on Iran.
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Just to say that I think it is yours truly who refers to Armaghedon. I too have noted with some concern that Olmert is taking a break.
I may be wrong but has not Israel already taken action against some sites in Syria.
Exactly what are we doing to prevent Turkish incursions into Northern Iraq. This is a sovereign country with an elected parliament and we, with our American allies, apparently are doing nothing to prevent such actions.
Maybe if David Miliband did more in his job as Foreign Secretary instead of attempting to take over as leader of the country we might just be able to say something to China over their abuses of people and the internet.
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209 Browndov, Thanks for information . I've got a lot going on at the moment perhaps we'll take the debate up again, in the future.
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208 Purple dogzzz, I wrote206
Between 139 TAG and 160 [you and TAG ] have not only predicted a war fairly soon but your telling us that there is a very strong expectation of armageddon in the spring, also that it seems very likely that Barrack Obama will be assassinated before he can take office.[ Note you and TAG]
139 TAG wrote,
We are fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and training troops all over the world to do our dirty work. The world is slowly spinning out of control and the Armagheddon some of us expect is soon to be upon us.
160 purpledogzzz wrote
I do not think that you are. There is a very real possibility of Global Nuclear War before next spring.
I am hearing a lot about rumours of an assasination of Obama and we have not had the Democratic Convention yet The timing for such a pre-emptive nuclear attack on another soveriegn nation would be after the American elections in November, but before (the likely) inauguration of President Clinton (after Obama is assasinated.
192 moderateprogressive wrote,
please seek medical help. you are clearly unwell.
I write, the only sense here comes from moderatelyprogressive with whom I totaly agree.
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