What's said and what's not
Listen very hard this morning for what Jack Straw is and isn't saying. The justice secretary has not called on the Labour Party to back Gordon Brown. Indeed he has not uttered any words himself at all since the Glasgow by-election.
Instead, allies of Mr Straw have said that he is urging rebels to "calm down". What that means is that he is asking for MPs who are pressuring him to bring about a change of leadership to ponder on the problems that would cause.
Firstly, it would be divisive. Secondly, the public might not like a party looking inward at the very time the voters want their concerns to be the top of the agenda. Finally though, and most importantly, Mr Straw has warned colleagues that a change of leader would trigger demands for an early general election for which Labour is particularly badly prepared at the moment.
It's interesting too to note that David Blunkett talked of there being no mechanism for removing Mr Brown today. I am not suggesting that Messrs Straw and Blunkett are secretly plotting against Mr Brown but what's clear is that they have not rushed to a full-throated declaration of approval either.
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It's difficult to take anything that any Labour MP says or doesn't say at face value.
I can't see the situation changing much at all. Gordon Brown will not give the position of PM whatever pressure is put on him, and I think he is spiteful enough to threaten to call a general election if Labour MPs do mount a revolt. That should be enough to dampen their enthusiasm.
So it looks like another 18 months of "just getting on with the job"......
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The situation at present calls for the good old adage "Keep your eyes to the wall me darlings....." Like #1 U11714077, I cannot see GB surrendering power, and he would use the threat of calling an election to keep the hounds at bay. This crew of parasites would hardly relinquish all their perks in the name of democracy. Why should they want to lead a party that is more than floundering, indeed drowning, in a sea of inefficiency and if not gross corruption, absolute incapability. Who would want to be the captain of the Titanic?
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Your reading of the situation is right as far as Straw is concerned. A safe pair of New Labour hands and a general election in the autumn?
But both Straw and Blunkett are part of what Alex Salmond calls "London Labour" and that would lead to a general election disaster for Labour.
There is another possibility turning into a probability - a letter of no confidence to the Cabinet signed by as many True Labour back bench MPs as can be mustered. It would only take one cabinet minister to break ranks and Brown is out.
That can't be Straw (too New Labour and too canny) but it could be a working class former trade union leader with his roots in the Labour Party.
Just imagine how a real Labour Party rid of the stigma of New Labour would fair against the SNP in Glasgow East?
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All I can inagine is a famous Liverpool comedian saying 'calm down' 'calm down', only trouble is this is serious.
Please do not insult my intelligence by even hinting that Gordon Brown has a mandate. I did not vote for him, he was not leader of the labour party when the last general election was held with a Tony Blair who was 'going to serve a full term'.
Now I know Tony Blair served a full term as far as he was concerned insomuch that he has now resigned from Parliament, therefore did he always intend to leave after only a few months?
Gordon Brown is not the legitimate Prime Minister of this country, he knows it, I know it, and everybody else does as well. Anybody who thinks Gordon has any legitimacy is deluded and as so many labour MPs now come on to the media saying that Gordon is the legitimate PM is deluded.
They all deserve to lose their seats because the only way to rid ourselves of Brown is to vote all labour MPs out of office because I can't vote Gordon out. QED If I was a labour MP I would prepare to sign on at the dole office and I can't wait until the staff quiz you like they are going to quiz us. Mind you they will be able to plead delusional tendencies!
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Brown under Blair was the master of the none rushed full-throated declaration of approval.
So he knows exactly what it means.
Glad Im not renting the holiday cottage next door, all that night pacing and nail gnawing.
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After 11 years of constant lies and spin I now know that the opposite of everything Labour say is true. Here's just one of millions of examples:
'The majority of drivers will benefit' [from new road tax plans]. How many actually did? Oh yes, 3,944,700 out of 22 million, ie. 18 percent. How many are worse off? 9 million, ie. 43 percent.
This shambles of a party---if you can even call them a party, they're more like a gang---are hopelessly lacking in leadership because Brown has removed anyone of competence from the cabinet, they're hopelessly lacking in funds because they've wasted it all (3 billion on new nuclear warheads at a time like this?), and they're hopelessly lacking in ideology because they're careerists and will say and do anything to stay in power. We need to get rid of them and fast. They have two choices: keep Brown and lose the election, or oust Brown and face total wipeout. So it's not all bad ;)
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Dear Nick
Small correction - there is a mechanism for Labour Party members to indicate approval or disapproval of the Leader/Deputy Leader set out in the Party's Rule Book. Party officials have chosen not to circulate the nomination papers to CLPs since 1996.
This has seriously weakened accountability of Labour in Government to its members - and the consequences in terms of declining membership, activism and loss of electoral support are all too apparant.
Peter Kenyon
Labour Party NEC member - elect
chair, Save the Labour Party
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re: 6
Correction, it should read: 'This shambles of a party---if you can even call them a party, they're more like a gang---are hopelessly lacking in leadership because Brown [is useless, has no ideas, authority or charisma and he] has removed anyone of competence from the cabinet'
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re: 7
'Labour Party NEC member - elect
chair, Save the Labour Party'
Lol. Not worth saving. Let the parasites destroy themselves and then start afresh when the corrupt majority have gone.
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#4 T A Griffin (TAG)
At last, something we agree on!
According to my simplistic brain, it has always seemed that Brown seized power without an election oer any democratic procedure. Dictators sometimes receive their desserts here on earth, so as a man who claims to be G-d fearing, no wonder he nervously gnaws his fingernails.
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5 Carrots
I laughed at your "no nookie till Christmas" comment.
Looks like Gordon Brown is the man to guide you through the difficult times ahead !
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Mr Straw and Mr Blunkett will have to support Gordon Brown to the hilt. Labour is at its lowest point and will have to come out of this devastating election results with a well-thought out strategy. Voters will have to be convinced that Labour has pragmatic policies which could incorporate 'change' at all levels. Obama's meeting with Gordon would have given the Labour Party lots of food for thought! After all young British eligible voters will be exercising their right to vote in droves at the next elections. Labour has to appeal to these voters. Enlightenment and good common sense will see Labour regain the initiative.Conservatives will not be smiling for too long.
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Looking through the present cabinet there is no replacement for Gordon, he wouldn't stand down anyway and will have to be dragged from the job.
With such a relatively short time until the next elections Euro ones/locals next year a new leader now would be in for a very short shift.
The bubble has burst....
A week in politics.......
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re: 12
"Voters will have to be convinced that Labour has pragmatic policies which could incorporate 'change' at all levels."
Hmm, 'have to be convinced', a typical Nu Lie-bore attitude. After all its the voters that are wrong, right? No!
"Enlightenment and good common sense will see Labour regain the initiative."
I haven't seen any of this during the past 11 years. Argh, away with you, deluded Labourites!
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The real problem for New Labour is that those that most want it's demise,and in particular the end of Brown,are traditional Labour supporters.As a former life-long Labour supporter,socialist and Union member I feel nothing but contempt and loathing for the greedy,arrogant,corrupt and generally clueless remnant of a once great party.I'm not alone in thinking the unthinkable and planning to vote Tory to oust my local Labour M.P. at the next General Election.
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Change we can believe in.................
That's what the people of this country want............every electoral test of public opinion in the last few months is shouting this out loud and clear.......but to deaf ears!
The fact is that GB cannot deliver this change. I think Robert Mugabe got it right when he referred to GB as a "dot"! He lacks respect, authority and now trust. He lacks the "vision" to inspire the younger generation and his track record as Chancellor is now unravelling fast, as we all wake up to the fact that the 10 year NewLabour "party" was built on huge piles and piles of uncontrolled personal and Government debt, sky high taxation and wasteful spending.
It is time for a new direction, for us to start living within our means with smaller government on our backs. We need to initiate a war on our streets against the knife weilding criminals and we need to lift the war this Goverment has waged incessantly against the motorists of the UK. GB is instinctly against all of this.......as is the Labour Party. State control and state dependency is their creed! We need policies to help the "aspirational poor" achieve their dreams not load them with debt for the rest of their lives!
The fact is that New Labour is doomed at the next General Election. There is NOTHING they can do to avoid defeat. But it is not good for democracy for any party to gain a landslide victory so the Labour Party must change it's leader to try to claw itself back in the opinion polls, then call an election so that GB cannot hang on to the keys of No 10 for another 22 wretched and excruciating months!
As Norman Lamont once said.........he referred to his position as being in office but not in power..............and that paralysis has now gripped this Goverment from top to bottom. Nobody in the Labour party will run for leader and none of them want to face the verdict of the electorate. They are a bunch on bottlers holding on to the luxury trappings of office at the taxpayers expense!
It's time to end this tired looking Government.................and that is the message that every election in this country is sending to the man without an mandate.....GB!
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I suspect Straw's hand will be forced sometime in the autumn, a number of Labour MPs will be stewing over their futures during the summer recess - the Scottish ones and those without overwhelming majorities most certainly.
What will be interesting is to see who does a disappearing act during the next crisis (with Brown in charge that's a 'when' not an 'if') as that'll identify just who the stalking horses are.
Brown, and Labour, are dead men walking - it's just enormously disappointing the replacement will be Cameron, another disciple media-driven dross.
After 11 years of spin and minimal returns on the public expenditure investment we need a statesmen, not another gurning popinjay selling snake oil.
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I have been doing a bit of Googling and found this. It was from 2004 when certain people were attempting to put the scars on Tony Blair's back: Full circle so as to speak.
http://www.workersliberty.org/node/3008
The Campaign for Labour Party Democracy (CLPD) have scoured the Labour Party rule book and found a way to force a leadership contest in the Labour Party. A way, that is, potentially, to get rid of Tony Blair as leader of the Labour Party!
In CLPD’s bulletin No.67, July 2004, they set out the rules to use.
In summary:
“Conference has the power to initiate a leadership election by invoking Section 4B.2d (ii) of the National Rules of the Labour Party…
“A CLP or an affiliated organisation can use a contemporary or an emergency motion to ask Conference to activate the above provision. …[relevant rule:] Section A, Conference rule 2, 3C2.3…
“For a subject to meet the conditions specified… CLPs and affiliated organisations must ensure that their contemporary motion… must refer to an event relevant to the motion’s demand. In addition, the event must have occurred after the last NPF meeting (ie after 25 July) and before the closing date for contemporary motions.” Nothing worth having was ever come by easily!
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Post #16 - yes, but unfortunately you won't get it from Comedy Dave and Boy George either. It will be business as usual, tax cuts for the rich and a Lasiz Faire attitude to the bank's (which has been Brown's downfall) and how they conduct their business.
If Brown and co have failed with tory policies, what makes people think that Cameron will be this startling success story.?
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@12, Pancha_Chandra
The tales of the Tories demise from Labourites are getting a little long in the tooth.
We've been hearing this "the Tories won't be laughing for long!" for, well, a long time now.
And really, given it was an SNP that gave Brown his most recent trouble, it seems almost pathological about how the kneejerk response is to belittle the Tories.
It isn't just the Tories you need to be scared of - it's the SNP who'll cause the most damage by potentially slaughtering Labour in Scotland. Lose Scotland, lose Westminster.
And of they do gain independence we'll not be seeing a Labour government in England for a very long time.
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Brown is now perceived, and with good reason, as being a Dick Dastardly type figure with a cape and twirly moustache who has tied a helpless Britannia to the railway tracks. (His pet Chancellor Darling is Muttley lol).
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#7 PGKenyon and others
At last some point of interest!
But surely the Labour leadership question both north and south of the border lie with finding candidates who want the job.
Professional politicians will remember Hague's bad decision to stand for the Tory leadership at just the wrong point in the electoral cycle. If he had waited, then he would be Tory leader - not Cameron.
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What elements in the Labour leadership will probably try to determine is:
Will Labour be more damaged by trying "to brass it out" until the next election under a constant hammering, or would changing leader and losing a general election actually leave them better off in 24 months?
But when will they taste power again? If the UK breaks up starting with the Scottish 2010 referendum and the public don't like it who will they blame?
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Don't change the leader... yet.
Change the damn policies and don't keep coming on TV telling us what our concerns are.
We know what they are and there is a long list, in addition to those the government can do very little about.
They mostly revolve around our government selling out our privacy, freedoms and services to business and foreign interests and then condescendingly simpering when we have the temerity to complain.
Develop a political philosophy that doesn't revolve around giving multinational companies large wedges of our cash in return for poor services. Put the protection of our rights and interests at the focus and have the intellectual strength to admit to being wrong on occasion.
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megapoliticajunkie's #88 on the 'Sore political heads' impishly asks:
"Have the BBC got enough cameras for all the Ministers who are going to have their own "Portillo moment" at the next General Election."
This prompts me to wonder whether Captain Scott (acknowledgement to CarrotsneedaQUANGO2's 248 on the "Oops" thread) could be shoved aside by one of those staring at their own Portillo moment. What we need is a database of the NuLabour Politburo so that they can be ranked in order of likelihood of sharing Michael P's unenviable fate. These, surely, are the ones most likely to take the Brutus role in the impending tragicomdey.
It also poses the question whether any are bright enough to realise the position they's in or are they all just rabbits caught in the headlights?
I have hunted a bit, but perhaps in the wrong places. It would be easy to build from the details on the BBC Election 2005 website, but if anyone knows of a suitable starting point I would be very interested to know before having a go myself.
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There was a PM called Brown
Whose world was turned upside down
I blame Blair
Who crept from the lair
Leaving Brown in his funeral gown
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Re #15 Devonportdave
Good for you.
Sad for your party that you didn't read the runes when traitor Hain left the Liberals to be a grain of sand in what became the NuLabour "pearl".
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Post #19.
Cameron has been talking the correct language on Government spending since the moment he was elected...i.e. SHARE the proceeds of growth between individual taxpayers and the Government/Public Services. Labour's attitude is to tax everyone and everything at the highest and stealthiest levels then spend spend spend without seeking value for money and thus leaving nothing in the kitty for the bad times!
Cameron might not be a "startling success" but a Thatcher style revolution towards public spending and taxation with controlled borrowing by the Govt and individuals is the only way forward for the next economic cycle.
GB as we have seen is for prolifrigation, DC for thrift. And thrift will become a more dominant political issue as the economic noose tightens around all our necks!
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#16 - NorthernThatcherite
"As Norman Lamont once said.........he referred to his position as being in office but not in power....."
It was Geoffrey Howe.
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There once was a PM called Brown
Who wore the Nu-Labour crown
It slipped off his head
And he fell over dead
That arrogant PM called Brown
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There once was a PM called Blair
Who made his constituents swear
We don't want a war
You silly old bore
No wonder we're losing our hair
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The real problem here is that Labour need a leader. GB is a good politician, many on here would say he is competent, professional etc. However, leadership requires something else, it cannot be easily defined but it is what happens when people WANT to follow you, even if they may disagree with some of your views and / or plans.
Thatcher had it, Blair had it, Major didn’t but wasn’t as bad as Kinnock so survived. GB probably couldn’t get a Lemming to follow him off a cliff at the moment. His chances therefore of getting the country (or even his own MP’s) to follow him in the current circumstances are virtually non-existent.
The Country will suffer because of this. Personally I think the Tories will win by default and therefore not benefit from a well thought out manifesto that we can hold them to. Whilst many would applaud this situation the Tories are lead by the wrong man, William Hague got the leadership too early and David Davis is banished from influence unfortunately this country will not get the strong leader that we need.
The other point people keep going back to is does he have a mandate? Sorry guys but unfortunately we do not vote for the PM directly. Until we do the governing party choose the PM he has therefore the only mandate he needs to keep going until Labour do something about it.
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re: 30
Hmm, 'Who wore the Nu-Labour crown' would probably be better as 'Who seized the Nu-Labour crown'
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For a much more insightful view of what's happening within Labour see Paul Mason's (Newsnight Economics Editor) blog
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Its not just a case of who the leader is but the policies and the Cabinet. Iraq, the Olympics, the next generation of nuclear weapons, failing to tax those who can afford it and taxing petrol instead, the market in public services and threatening the unemployed and the sick are all policies the Conservative Party would be happy to give us and are on record as such.
So what is the point of getting rid of this government and getting Cameron instead?
The trouble is that Brown et al are making sure that there own futures are ensured. Radical change is needed NOW otherwise we will all continue suffer and suffer even more under the Tories.
Don't be taken in by Cameron. Their agenda is for the few not the many.
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Post 29. When did GH say that? And what was he/who referring to?
Here is an extract from Wikipedia in relation to Norman Lamont...........
"After the government's massive loss in the by-election Lamont left office (declining a demotion to become Secretary of State for the Environment), throwing (by his own account) Major's letter of regret at his departure unopened into the wastepaper basket, and giving a resignation speech in the House of Commons that made clear his feeling that he had been unfairly treated, saying that the government 'gives the impression of being in office but not in power';"
I rest my case!
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Re 7.
Peter Kenyon
Labour Party NEC member - elect
chair, Save the Labour Party
Why would I want to elect a chair?
On second thoughts though it wouldn't be any worse than the other bits of furniture presently inhabiting the corrdors of power
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Please can someone write a shopping list of complaints against Gordon Brown? I don't blame him at all for Britain's problems (and I am not at all a Labour supporter).
There's a danger in putting too much faith in politicians to improve our lives. If you are relying on them then you might have other things you could consider to change things.
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PS
I think David Milliband would make a great PM.
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re: 37
Good point. And a chair wouldn't have to claim anything on expenses except maybe a bit of varnish now and again. And it certainly wouldn't eat everything on the menu at Mr. Chu's like John Prescott did.
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Two problems for Labour. First there is the Government level problem - irrespective of the leader. Second second there is the problem of the leader per se.
The first is the age old problem of a Party whose whose time the electorate has decided is up and who will vote against them, rather than for the other lot. This is based on a mixture of past failings coming home to roost, despite areas of success, and the hubris which seems to grip all parties after a prolonged period in office.
This is nearly always fatal, though there have been ecxeptions eg this certainly was the state of the Tories in 1992 but Labour and Neil Kinnock improbably managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
If Cameron and the Tories avoid scandal, keep things at a high level and sit back and allow Labour to keep digging in it's deep hole then, absent any exceptional event, ditching Brown probably makes no difference.
As for the leader problem, I don't think it is just a presentational or charisma issue, though certainly that is a factor. For me, Brown looks like a politician whose strengths play best in the back room or in opposition. On the latter point, he was very effective in opposition to the Tories pre-1997 - and, indeed, to Blair post-1997.
On the other issue, it has been said that intelligence brings quickness of apprehension as distinct from abiltity, which is the capacity to act wisely on the thing apprehended. I fear Gordon's real problem is that he is intelligent but lacks ability. Thus, he is very good at identifying the right issues but flounders and dithers hopelessly when trying to identify, communicate and deliver the right solutions. When he does come up with solutions, they tend to be 'clever' but much more effective in theory than in parctice.
Frankly, I've no idea what Labour should do now vis a vis Brown - a classic 'I wouldn't start from here if I was you' situation. But, apart from a contingency plant to cater for the intervention of a big event or Tories hitting the self-destruct buttony -perhaps the reality is that, with apologies to David Steel, they need to "Go back and prepare for opposition."
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Are we not like a group of angels trying to dance on the head of a pin.
Trying to analyse the ifs, buts, maybe's, why's and wherefore's are nothing more than a distraction.The simple fact is that there is now a fundamental disconnect between the general population and all of the political class, especially the incumbent government.
The Lisbon treaty referendum, sleaze and corruption throughout Westminster, the West Lothian question and the Barnett formula, are symptomatic of a bankrupt political system that has systematically abandoned democracy and ignoring promises they made, for their own personal or political gain.
Each of the recent misfortunes that have landed on GB's head since he bottled his election call, is now simply another rock being placed on the grave of somebody who is already buried 6ft under. No amount of scratching on the coffin lid with his fingernails is going to bring anybody running to save him.
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#36 - NorthernThatcherite
I am suitably penitent - (especially as I have been moved to post elsewhere a comment regarding people getting their facts right).
I think I had in mind the cricket analogy in GH's resignation statement - 'It is rather like sending your opening batsmen to the crease only for them to find, the moment the first balls are bowled, that their bats have been broken before the game by the team captain.'
But you are absolutely correct and I apologise unreservedly.
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Comment No 1 is probably right - another 18 months of "getting on with the job", which means fiddling (usually the figures) while Rome burns.
Apart from anything else, Labour doesn't have any credible alternative. How can anyone with a semblence of sense propose Jack Straw, Ed [no] Balls or Harriet [my husband is the stupidest man alive] Harman as prime minister?
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Post 32.
"Thatcher had it. Blair had it"........
What was "it"?..........
Thatcher had CONVICTION and CHARISMA. Blair had only CHARISMA.
the best leaders have conviction, charisma...............and LUCK!
Brown nor any of the likely contenders for his job..........Straw, Milliband or Johnson have both conviction or charisma............and until the economy improves they will have no luck either
Bring back Thatcher!!!!!!
At least when things got bad you knew what she said carried conviction and some of her one-off lines were classics!!!!
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Post 43.
Thanks.
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27 browndov, why is Peter Hain a traitor and yet two of your heroes crossed the floor Winston Churchill and Vince Cable.
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#9 power_to_the_people, by the corrupt majority, I'm assuming you're meaning within the parliamentary Labour Party. However, do you really think getting unceremoniously dumped in any form of election is going to get rid of them?
They'll simply continue with the 'Blair won us three terms so surely he got it right' mantle and continue.
The very rich are always going to be around and they'll always vote for the party with the most extreme neo-liberal policies.
I don't think we can ever expect to see a Labour party again (one that reflects the interests of the working public).
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As a bitter and twisted Labour supporter, I am saddened by the way the Party is starting to self-distruct. Just what the Tories did under Major.
We get rid of Blair because MPs think he will lose us the next election. What a good idea that was! Brown comes in and though he has done little wrong, he cannot beat up Cameron and is being walked over from anyone and everyone.
Cameron admitted that Blair was too hot to handle. Brown is an easy touch. Politics is about spin and more spin. Cameron is just using the Blair template and winning.
I admit there is policy behind the spin, however the people see the governing of the country on a few issues that effect them only.
Labour MPs were elected to do what they promised. They should have thought about this situation when they were sticking a knife into Blair.
Brown, Im afraid is doomed. Unless he can start doing the things he cares about, instead of treating the people like a bad rash.
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Please explain to me, why is Gordon Brown been made 'the scapegoat' of labour party that is everyone is ever so willing to slaughter?!We tend to be fickle minded; he was not handed over the reins of the party at the wave crest. Why are we ignoring the terrible spiral of mess Tony Blair left the Labour party in? I can understand the frustration of the consumers/voters in the current worldwide economic gloom venting out their steam at the party and the leader in particular but I personally feel Britain has done extremely well to weather the batterings of the economic slowdown compared to other nations.We ought to open our eyes to the global phenomenon, and appreciate its not because of one man!
Yes, I totally agree labour has been in power for too long, the electorate has decided for a change; no leadership at this stage could save the downslide started by Tony Blair. All I don't undertand is the vilification of Gordon Brown.
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re: 47
Lol come on grandantidote! Because he defected to the most corrupt party the UK has ever seen!
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nick do you think that someone could get that clown Power to the ppl a reality check he's becoming more manic by the day it would be nice to have some semblance of sanity with reference to the blog
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#45 NorthernThatcherite, whilst I have to reluctantly agree with you that Thatcher possessed the attributes you refer to. I cannot see how Blair was CHARISMATIC.... when has Blair ever been charismatic?
Please remember the people who refer to Blair as charismatic probably think President Bling Bruni is too. Oh, they probably refer to Jordan or whatever her name is as a celebrity.
I shall stop here, if I continue this post will be censored.
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re: 48
Yep you assume correctly and you sum up pretty much what I meant. Labour will undoubtedly split into factions and make themselves unelectable (well, they've already done that) and won't taste power again for a very long time. But this is best in the long run because they've gone rotten. They can't spin themselves out of this one---going into opposition is the only way to prevent the power-hungry careerists from taking over the party again. In an ideal world, the genuine conviction politicians (like Mo Mowlam) will start to come back to the party once they've imploded and rebuild it into a party rather than the gang it is.
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re: 52
grandy Nick and the moderators love me because I tell it like it is ;)
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Good, non-partisan (which means most of you won't look near it) article by Joyce McMillan in the Scotsman -
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Social-justice-could-be-real.4327660.jp
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Re #47 grandantidote
"why is Peter Hain a traitor and yet two of your heroes crossed the floor Winston Churchill and Vince Cable."
Because he ratted on his beliefs when he left the Liberals. His whole political ethos was summed up by his "What's Left" campaign against Wilson's Labour Party and it was his ratting on that which prompts me to brand him as a traitor. At least it seems to have ended in ignominy, which is some consolation.
Churchill was undoubtedly an opportunist before hils wilderness years and after '45, but he was also the right man in the right place between '40 and '45. I'm not sure he had many beliefs apart from freedom. Cable simply saw fairly early where NuLabour was headed and sensibly jumped a ship that was leaving his centre-left position for a journey to the far right.
Neither are my heroes but merely on my shortlist.
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#54 power_to_the_people, one can but only hope.
The down-trend in the economy is an opportunity for old Labour to make a comeback.
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51 power to the people I would like to respond to you but in view of your uncontrolable rantings after the SNP not the Tories won the Glasgow east by electiont, [God help your friends if the Tories win the general election].I am unable too.
I am, until you come back to your senses compelled to say something about organ grinders and monkeys and to whom the post was addressed.
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If Gordon Brown was starring in a Western movie, this is the moment when he squints up at the ridge and sees a solitary Apache warrior. However a few seconds later when he looks up again and there's a hundred of them. Time to circle the wagons Gord!
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clearzipzap. I agree to the point that why is Brown being treated like this. However, Brown and Blair worked as a team (Even though Nick and his fellow media friends wouldnt agree!) to breath life into the party. Get it to where it is and win three terms!
Labour MPs are bricking it. Instead of standing up and doing the job they were elected to do. They start protecting the seat and being devisive.
Brown has not got the power to control this.
Blair was taken down to be replaced by his No.2. But isnt Brown no differant than McClaren taking over from Eriksson?
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re: 58
Well you all know how I feel about Labour remaining in power but it's necessary for them to be a united party to provide an effective opposition. In the short term it's good that Labour are crumbling so that the Tories can get in and undo all the damage Labour have done in the first place, but if Labour stay divided into factions then what's to stop the Tories going power-mad and heading down the same route? (Although that's unlikely, I don't believe the Tories will take the same path as last time). It's clear centralised state-control and enforced state-dependence doesn't work at all so why not try something new?
re: 59
Come on grandy be reasonable, Labour deserved to lose and it's good that they did. Nothing wrong with being exuberant when talking politics!
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re: 60
Lol good analogy. Though I think he's more likely to be found in the saloon, searching for policies at the bottom of a glass!
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The government is says it is committed to helping 'hard pressed working families' and taking steps to minimise the effects of a global downturn.
How does renaming a benefit and printing new forms do that? How does sending the unemployed out to clean up litter improve employment prospects? How does employing people to monitor emails and tap phones help? How does banging up people for 42 days without trial make for a better economy?
The problem with the government is that it is fundamentally dishonest. It says one thing and it does something else. The measures which mitigate against the freedoms of the citizen are particularly sinister because they are not only a waste of public money but they indicate a paranoid tendency in the governing classes which is pushing them towards control freakery. An honest government would have nothing to fear from its own electorate.
When you have sunk to a level where local authorities are paying people to wander round snapping pictures of working guys having a crafty fag during their lunch break, I am afraid the whole thing is beyond redemption. This is totally irrational behavior and the tragedy is that at a time of financial stringency they are using your money to pay for it.
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I am surprised that Pancha_Chandra can be so positive about Brown meeting Obama!
I am guessing that he has no idea that Obama central focus is "Change" - not really the message that Brown wants to get across! Young people will see a principled and dynamic politician speaking to Brown - who lets be fair to him frankly isn't.
I think that the only thing that will wipe the smile from the Conservatives faces is when they see exactly how much of a mess Labour have made of everything!
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62. We all know what your about! All parties are devided. Its about spin machines and lots of glue holding it all together!
Cameron has got a lot of glue! However as the past has told us those old buggers sitting in the wings are ready to pounce and undo the glue.
Dont get to carried away, as the next election looms and the policies are explained, Cameron will I am sure start to twitch and his tefal image begin to crack.
Those chickens arnt for counting. Not quite yet!
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"Bring back Thatcher!!!!!!
At least when things got bad you knew what she said carried conviction and some of her one-off lines were classics!!!!"
Yup. Thatcher, even in her dotage, from a hospital bed, would be preferable to the shower we have in power at the moment. She still has more power and leadership charisma than Blair and Brown put together....
"why is Peter Hain a traitor and yet two of your heroes crossed the floor, Winston Churchill..."
Grandantidote, Winston Churchill cared for his country. If his party could not do the best for his country, he would leave it. I assume you would have your country sink into the mire before you relinquished hold on your petty, indoctrinated set of opinions which are ruining our once-great country as we speak?
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If I were Brown I'd be glad that Straw hadn't rushed forward with a full-throated declaration of approval. If he had it would be a sure sign of plotting. Cautious backing indicates he still actually backs him. Extravagant backing indicates he doesn't.
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The one thing I am sure of who ever take the mantle of the Labour party will only have 12 months to serve.So why should anyone want to be a losing PM.Far better to wait till after the election and be the new Labour party leader and have a fighting chance at the next election.
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Northern Thatcherite - "Bring Back Thatcher"
Er... no thanks. Then you ensure the break up of the UK. The last thing we need is a "Thatcher style revolution in public spending and taxation" -especially as it destroyed the ability of our public services to do their job properly.
No what is needed is a tax system where those with low wages don't pay as much tax as the fat cats and high earners, this is something which both New Labour and the Conservitives are too scared of Middle England to do, in fact it is the indirect taxes which people refer to rather than the bogey man of income tax when they mean that taxes are too high.
Oh, and where is this money that Gordon has apparently spent, because i, my partner, and one guesses the good people of Glasgow East haven't seen any of it.
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Re #56 oldnat
And you accuse me of having a wicked streak!
The Scotsman's "Social justice could be real victim of Labour's by-election defeat" is indeed admirably non-partisan and shows exactly the way the LibDems would have been going had not Clegg been emulating Cameron a bit too much of late.
If "NuLabour 3, Flight of the Phoenix" emerges from the ashes after the general election that's what they'll be saying they'll do, while they continue their right wing agenda.
Most posters here would probably rant at it for one particular they don't like, but that seems pretty close to the balance of opinion in Scotland.
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The only one I would vote for out of the whole cabinet is Alan Johnson. A working guy with true Labour roots. Brown has sadly blown it imo
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re: 64
Yes, and this is exactly why we shouldn't vote for them, lest Britain should become (more of) an Orwellian nightmare.
re: 66
I'm keeping my eyes open, I know they're far from perfect. But better than this lot? Arguably so, more than likely yes. Less paranoid? Undoubtedly (see threnodio's 64).
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64. Quick get indoors, you may be under threat from the paper boy! (undercover agent for the local parish council)
What a load of rubbish!
What has 42 days got to do with the economy?
Dont forget to pay your membership for Liberty. The voice of the p@*$ takers!!
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re: 68
Oh they're plotting alright, regardless of what they tell us plebs.
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Oh and post#25
If i remember correctly, the Portilo moment was great because one of the most arrogant minnisters was ousted. Having said that, he had the grace and dignity to thank the victor and the electorate, both of which were things he hadn't shown at that point when in Government, but has shown lots of times since then.
No a better example would be the graceless way which David Mellor lost, there was more satisfaction at that defeat. I suspect that at the next election, there will be more "Mellor" moments than "Portillo" ones...
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Limerick to an honourable trade- aka The Heseltinies revisited
There once was a woman called Harriet,
Whose name rhymes with Judas Iscariot
She went all over town
Saying ‘Be loyal to Brown’
Whist oiling the wheels of her chariot
Watching her was Straw Jack
A wily political hack
Said he Said ‘Brown’s the man.
‘Stick with him ‘s my plan’
Concealing his knife at his back
And then there was Miliband Dave
Who said ‘Gordon’s job I don’t crave
‘If I did I’d have stood’
‘Back then when I could’
‘Oh God I wish I’d been brave’
And what about poor ED Balls
Whose whole situation just galls
Hitched to the Brown wagon
His fortunes are flaggin’
In fact, he’s left climbing the walls
For Gordon is all hard to bear
‘How can they be so unfair ?’
‘My reputation they soil’
‘They’re completely disloyal’
‘Did I ever do that to Blair ?’
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re: 74
It's not rubbish, my local council (Labour) paint speed cameras green and hide them in trees. I'm sure this is illegal, but Nu Lie-bore are above the law.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#78
Have you tried asking the police if hidden speed cameras are contrary to the Road Traffic Act - or are they part of the conspiracy too?
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38. london888
You asked:
Please can someone write a shopping list of complaints against Brown.
You must be new here so Ill be gentle.
Taxed me to the hilt for a decade
Increased debt to record levels
Hasn’t saved so much as a bean for a rainy day
Squandered a over a trillion quid
Sold my gold for a song
Raided my pension funds
Kept public sector gold plated final salary schemes
Adjusted his golden rule so often it’s now a joke
He gave away our EU rebate while allowing France to keep all their CAP subsidies
Promised a bonfire of Quangos but then increased their number 10 fold
Failed to grasp the implications of abolishing the 10p tax rate until it was too late.
Didn’t give me a say on the Lisbon treaty.
Lied about why he didn’t call an election
Didn’t move to sort out MPs expenses. didn’t even bother to turn up and vote.
Got the budget for the Olympics way wrong and even then forgot to add VAT.
He sabotaged Blair’s public sector reforms that were well over due.
He does not understand the armed forces and has broken the military covenant.
Continues to erode my civil liberties. 42 days, ID cards etc.
There has been some debate about whether he was elected by the people or not, and technically of course here in the UK we do not vote for the PM, just our local rep. However, The Tories had a slogan at the last election. It was vote Blair get Brown. Labour went a long way to deny this and Blair promised us faithfully that he would serve a full third term.
The reality is that most people do not actually know the name of their MP, but they do know that they tend to play follow the leader. So the look at the leaders and vote along those lines.
Finally: Hes a control freak, bites his nail and picks his nose in parliament and is generally an all round unappealing kinda leader of the country.
Oh yes and hes a socialist.
Im sure there more but Im loosing the will to live now.
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Brown keeps telling us, over and over again, that he understands what the publics concerns are and will address them.
Frankly this is risable, he can do nothing about most of them, job security, food costs, and most fuel costs.
What he can do something about he actually makes worse, eg 10p tax rate and the despicable attempt to hike Vechle Excise Duty retrospectively.
If he want any chance of staying on he should address VED now and make some tax cuts - paid for by public spending reductions if required.
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There was an MP called Geoff Hoon
Who's a typical Labour buffoon
He's hatching a plot
To oust the dour Scot
(Who we can't get rid of too soon)
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To Northern Thatcherite and Extreme Sense..
You missed my point a bit about leadership. It doesn’t matter what you personally think of either Blair or Thatcher. Both were followed, and both were followed loyally by people who thought they were wrong at many points during their premierships. Brown doesn’t have that ability, or either of their charismatic personalities.
Both enthused those who would normally be naturally opposed to them and both gained three good election victories when less “natural” leaders would have failed at the third time of asking. Both also won a first victory due to the incumbents’ total failure. You could argue that either or indeed both conned those who would naturally be opposed to them but it doesn’t change the facts that they both succeeded.
Only a real leader could avoid a total Labour meltdown next election. Only a near miracle could make it a victory.
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Perhaps Gordon Brown should just accept he isn't going to win at the next election and do some bold and brave things, leave the next term to Dave C and hope Labour can recover for next time.
For example:
- voting reform for the House of Commons. If we moved to a D'Hont system, even if he lost under it he could blame his brave changes.
- media ownership. Put a rule saying no-one could own any UK media asset unless they were a European citizen, at least until the US reverses their ruling. Rupert Murdoch has betrayed Gordon, now it is time to return the favour.
- privacy law. Put a "public interest" test on the media and security firms.
- extend the BBC License fee for another decade. Then he can be sure of a job after being PM.
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#74
You just don't get it, do you?
They don't have self-help prison cells, you know. Surveillance cameras don't come free with every packet of Frosties. And G-d alone knows how many people are being paid to monitor rubbish bin use, dog pooh bandits and all the other serious crims who are undermining the fabric of society.
Your money is going up in smoke pursuing these initiatives. The civil liberties arguement can wait. To borrow Bill Clinton's election call 'It's the economy, stupid'.
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They won't get rid of him; they know they'll lose the next election no matter what happens, so they'll just keep him in the job and humour him as he digs himself (and the country) into ever deeper trouble.
Then, after the 2010 election they'll all point at him and say "your fault".
Then for the next 20 years they'll try to fight their way out of the political wilderness by trying to distance themselves from everything that Brown ever did by saying "I was only following orders".
I hope they're all thoroughly ashamed of themselves for crowning him when they all knew full well that he was an incompetent idiot.
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#80 - oldnat
Speed cameras were supposed to be a deterrent. How are they going to deter anyone if you don't know about them. If, on the other hand, they are cash cows . . .
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Re #76 GRhino
I agree that Portillo has proved himself to be a "mensch" subequently - perhaps thanks to that humiliation, he took a longer view.
My point, however, was to try to identify who in the NuLab front bench might be beginning to see that moment coming and so a little braver in coming forward as a candidate.
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re: 88
Labour sees all of us as cash cows, with big swollen udders, ripe for milking.
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Miliband: Give it up Gordon, it's hopeless.
Brown: NO! Never!
Harman: I want to be PM! Let me have a go!
Miliband: WHAT? I want to be PM! No one'll vote for you!
Harman: Yes they will! What do you know about government you lanky streak of---
Brown: SHUT UP! I AM THE PM!
Darling: Not for much longer---
Brown: MUTINY!
Miliband: You lost Glasgow East with a 22.5 percent swing and---
Brown: TRAITORS!
Harman: Shut up Gordon and listen!
Brown: I am listening! The public want me to do my job!
Darling: AAAARGH no they don't they want you out!
Brown: But I am the PM!
Miliband: Where's the whisky?
Harman: I want some whisky!
Brown: It's mine, give it to me!
Harman (grabs whisky): MINE!
Brown: RRGH (they scuffle)
Miliband: MINE!
Harman: I thought you wanted to be PM! You can't have both!
Miliband: Can!
Harman: Can't!
Brown: I'M STILL THE PM
Miliband: No, my turn!
Harman: No, mine!
Brown: I am the man to steer us through this difficult time!
Harman: ME!
Miliband: NO, ME!
etc etc etc
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Re #85 Briantist
I think it's simply too late for Brown now, but those are exactly the kind of things a new PM could do to minimise the disaster or perhaps go into a coalition next time.
He or she would also have to complete devolution, I think and make the HoC the English Parliament while replacing the HoL with a supreme court and a union senate.
Most readers here probably don't know that it's the D'Hondt method used to elect the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly. It should certainly bring the LibDems onside, perhaps for a one-election pact.
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#85 Briantist and #92 Brownedov
It would really be statesman like behaviour to say -
"Sorry, we got some things wrong" and reverse the non social democratic policies, while sacking the worst of the modernisers in the Cabinet (thus blaming them).
Make a deal with the Lib-Dems for PR, push it through Parliament, then call an election.
All based, of course, on the premise that Middle England is irretrievably lost, and the objective is to reduce the period of inevitable barbarism, which otherwise would last 30,000 years ...
Oh, I'm so sorry, I'm rewriting Asimov's Foundation trilogy.
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Hi Nick
In my opinion Gordon Brown should go now, at least that would give the labour party time to find a new leader to try and turn things around with the remaining 2yrs or whatever it is until a general election is called.
I can see though that because he waited over 10yrs for the top job he's not going to step aside without a fight, But by putting his self or political career first ahead of the party he will really finish labour off! A long spell in opposition beckons.
It's a bit like the captain of a ship refusing to go down with it, when the boiler room is filling with water but the captain carries on regardless!
In my view David Milliband would be a good new leader, someone who could restore the labour party in time to give them a fighting chance at the next general election, otherwise the longer Brown stays the harder it will be for the labour party to regain any credibility with the electorate.
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Either way - "Me thinks the lady protests too much"
So if senior Nu Labour ministers are telling Labour Back Benchers to 'Shut up" or "Calm Down" then as eggs is eggs there is a plot afoot to get rid of the disaster know as Gordy Broon.
In sport - when the results you need don't happen you sack the Manager
In business - when the results you need don't happen you sack the CEO
In politics - when the voters don't like you or your policies - they vote you out - even if it takes a year or two
But if you are Gordon Brown or Robert Mugabe or Adolf Hilter or any other 'dictator' you bury your head in the sand, get rid of anyone who disagrees with you and declare that you are the only one who can save the nation. Then you bolt the doors, take the phone off the hook, huncker in the bunker and await the inevitable.
And believe me the inevitable WILL HAPPEN - it's only a matter of time. Gordy Broon will either get voted out, kicked out or resign under pressure. The incompetent rascal cannot survive for ever - history shows us that.
In the mean time I for one will be saving my pennies under the mattress, cutting back on any unnecessary expenditure and hoping that I won't be well and truly broke by the time he is gone!!!
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After 4 defeats in Crewe, London, Henley and now Glasgow, the desire for change is gathering pace here in the UK, much in line with the trend in Europe where people have woken up to the fact that Centre-Left governments are useless and are voting them out.
Labour really are between a rock and a hard place, they know that if Brown is still in charge at the next Election, they'll lose.
Equally they can't risk the internecine divisions that a leadership election will inevitably cause.
As Nick Robinson rightly points out, the Public will not be impressed with a Labour Party that's looking inward. A further erosion of support for Labour would be the likely result, so whichever way you look at it I think personally that Labour are (thankfully)doomed at the next Election.
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Perhaps some senior Labour figures are looking at getting some non-Scots into the PMs chair or at least remove some of the cabinet. (I am Scottish by the way).
The media like playing up the "Scottish Mafia", but to be honest it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference if they were from Mars.
Labour needs to realise that the great master plan has backfired. Devolution was there for one reason and one reason only - votes. No one expected Alex Salmond to unite the previously disintegrating SNP and then gain power.
I do not think Jack Straw will make a move, as he will realise that Labour are effectively finished. The Lib Dems are losing votes as people understand that voting for them now simply increases the chances of Labour remaining in power.
Labour cannot win, and they are making all the wrong noises.
EDF is massively increasing bills for gas and electricity. But it's ok for taxpayers money to go to Palestine. Why?
There is no point in wittering on about how the Conservatives sold off the energy companies in the first place. Labour have been in power 11 years and more and more people are struggling to earn enough money to live. Add all the other problems and Labour have no answer. Perhaps no other party can do much, but it is Labour who are the Government. It is their responsibility to ensure that the population of the UK can live.
Politicians seem to be scared of making decisions for political reasons.
Perhaps some previously unknown Labour MP will stand against Brown as a gesture, but I doubt it. The real power will lie with the Unions. And if I was Gordon Brown, I would pay special attention to Alan Johnson. He is the most likely candidate to replace him.
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Are people actually surprised that Labour would actually enter into a full-scale civil war after the departure of Blair? Blair brought together (albeit building on previous work by Kinnock and Smith) the various elements of the Labour Party - both 'progressive' and traditional, to create New Labour. Whatever the outcome, it is widely accepted that New Labour was a massive media project based on Bill Clinton's 'New Democratic Campaign' during the 1992 US Presidential Election and was aimed at introducing a Labour Government in 199x (many were amazed at how long Major DID survive.)
After 18 years in the wilderness the temptation of power was far too strong and it can be argued that many in the Labour party were prepared to sacrifice their own beliefs to win Office - the 'lesser' of two Evils (the other being a fifth Conservative Term.) If we need any clearer indication of this then perhaps Blair's stedfast support for George Bush - a right-wing Republican indicates this more than anything else. However, what was forgotten is that in the US, the political parties are widely different across the different regions of the US. Therefore, whilst a Labour MP in the UK will probably have the same views if he is in a Southern, Northern, Eastern or Western Constituency, a Republican in Texas may be an entirely different politican from a Republican in New York or California. By copying this model, Blair forced the Labour Party into a route that many (albeit privately) were not comfortable with (with only mass unease from 2003 onwards peaking in 2004.)
Blair, like Thatcher, was good at winning elections. He was also an impressive orator - and many would prefer a return to 'sofa Government' than Brown's current style - and was personally popular. Consequently, many in the Labour Party (and the same in the Tory one during the 1980s) were prepared to sacrifice principle and ideology for power. Once Blair left (and in Thatcher's case looked weak and a liability) the glue that cements this uneasy coalition collapses - thus leading to unrest and Civil War.
It depends on how Brown plays the next few months. If he is removed then any future leader will be weaker - moreso than Brown. Whilst the Government has made humilitating U-Turns and concessions to backbenchers, the leadership of the Party - and the position of the PM has never reached a critical mass whereby it is extremely vulnerable. Major hit that problem and effectively stopped governing - he became frightened of his own MPs and his administration did little but die on its feet.
Blair has not plagued Brown with the same problems that Thatcher did for Major (no backseat driving comments yet), but he is in the same position - unfavourably compared to a popular predecessor. Disposing of Brown is not the answer and then perhaps winning the next election may not be either - 1992 has often been seen as the Tories' greatest defeat, it is arguable that 2010 could easily be prove the same for Labour.
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#62 power_to_the_people, yes, I agree, we do need a decent opposition. New Labour were unchallenged for too long and we've ended-up in this position.
I think it's time for a change and that is obviously going to be the Conservatives, who, at the moment, appear to be totally unopposed (they are only challenged by the LibDems in certain areas).
The Conservatives are a bit of an unknown quantity at the moment because they haven't really shown their hand - lot's of ideas, yes, but nothing really of substance and that's worrying.
In London, Boris Johnson hasn't done anything significant and I think that's deliberate.
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97 I agree with the points made in general but I cannot see Gordon Brown ever stepping down.
He genuinely seems to be so deluded that he believes his policies are what we want (they aren't) and this is how we want to be governed (it isn't). There are a myriad of reasons why the whole approach of him and his government are so unpopular - and its not all to do with the economic factors.
Watch out for a collect suicide pact from the cabinet, and the trukeys not voting for Christmas.
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The thick plottens
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4402467.ece
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#74 alexinnorfolk, yes, what has 42 days got to do with the economy?
I generally agree with #64, what has the government done to stimulate the economy?
EDF have just increased energy costs and no doubt other utilities will follow.
How have the government tackled utilities and oil companies (two major sources of household inflation)?
Of course, they haven't. They've frozen public sector pay rises and not daring to rock the big-business boat.
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#97 - Neil_Small147
"EDF is massively increasing bills for gas and electricity".
So what happened to regulation?
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Interesting point, I dont think has been mentioned.
Previous by-election defeats were essentially caused by Labour voters staying at home, not bothering to go out and cast a positive vote for Labour.
Glasgow East was different. They turned out in large numbers to vote for anyone who could beat Labour.
Perhaps its the first bye-election.
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Re #93 oldnat
It would also presuppose that NuLabour has a statesperson.
The only one I can possibly see in the frame for it is Straw as he has been loyalish, has genuinely tinkered with democratic ideas, would never be PM any other way, would have a better pension to retire on and is the most likely of the cabinet to be prepared to go down fighting, with the possible exception of the ghastly Harperson.
It would be pushing it, but he could even claim a tad of old Labour credentials.
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#104 Carrots etc
"bye-election" Clever.
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re: 101
Who knows what awaits? A relatively peaceful handover or TOTAL CARNAGE
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Actually, might being visable in opposing the PM be a price worth paying for some. Afterall, who would like to face their constituants with words of support for Gordon when the public they serve are being hit so bad. It might be a case of sod the PM, on onto a hiding if I do support him, my own career is more important.....win or lose.
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re: 99
Yeah I think you're right about Boris' lack of any major changes, and it's interesting that he hasn't made any significant blunders either. But I think the Tories know that times have changed and that Labour-style trickery and stealth will blow their chances. Having lived under an outrageously deceitful government for so long the public are more attuned to deception than they have been in the past. The Tories also know that power is within their grasp, so I don't think they're going to blow it by introducing any ridiculous policies, it'll be a mild Conservatism this time round (for the time being anyway lol). I'm sure they're keeping quiet just so Labour don't steal their ideas, but maybe I'm being unnecessarily optimistic, I dunno. Whatever happens they can't be as petty and ineffective as Nu Lie-bore anyway.
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My vote goes on Gordon Brown hanging on to 2010, an SNP vote on Independence scrapin in just before the UK general election with Gordon Brown loses and being replaced by "fresh face" James Parnell.
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re: 110
Hmm, maybe you're right but I think I'd rather have Gordo the clown as PM than Purnell. Brown is definitely deluded but theres a little bit of conviction there. Purnell is a careerist pure and simple and Labour will never be an effective opposition with him at the helm, he'd sell them out like that *clicks fingers*
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Why don't MPs from all parties actually work together for a change? I know they do behind the scenes and in the committees. But perhaps a more mature political outlook in public would be better for all.
Now over to our correspondent watching Elvis and the Flying Pigs............
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#110 Craig Cockburn
Timing is wrong.
UK election in May (resounding Tory victory). Referendum on St Andrew's Day in November (just enough time for Cameron to have really annoyed the Scots, and reminded them of the last UK Tory Government).
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Could be that his majority of 8,009 - vulnerable to a swing of just 9.6% - isn't enough to guarantee that the "new Prime Minister" would survive a General Election? How embarrassing would THAT be?
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re: 112
Because politicians by their very nature are lying cheating scum. If people went into politics to serve their country then they would do, but seeing as they're there to mooch as much as they can, why bother? They're more concerned with avoiding being found out and sacked than actually doing anything constructive.
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Let's be honest - our politicians won't be.
Ed Balls says he is "accountable" but not "responsible". What does that mean?
His department cut a deal with a shady US company to mark, rank and produce test results for kids who should really be getting on with growing up, not delivering measurement factors for a bunch of "results orientated" politicians.
Brown claims he was both accountable for and responsible for the economic results over 11 years. (A few global hiccups have made it look a little less impressive? Actually, no. The UK's disastrous finances are home grown and have been coming along nicely for years.)
Well, will Gordon pay back the debt he's run up on our behalf?
Don't think so. Even Tony Blair, with his apparently open-ended income couldn't do that.
Kick out GB? The only two candidates who may stand a chance of re-constructing a working Labour party are Field and Skinner.
At least they principles. Not like the smarmy army of Milibands, Balls, Cooper, Alexander etc, who have never done anything constructive in their lives.
GB will be there when the Labour party crashes.
TB should have been there to take it down with style. At least with him, you knew it was all style and no substance. With this guy, you may just give up ever going on holiday in Suffolk.
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re: 116
'Ed Balls says he is "accountable" but not "responsible". What does that mean?'
It means he'll apologise but will still insist it's someone else's fault. What is particularly irritating is the implication is that we the electorate are somehow being unreasonable for expecting him to do his job properly.
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When Gordon returns from Southwold
He'll be ready to listen, we're told
He'll get on with the job
Of getting on with the job
So canny, so prudent, so bold!
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I blame Mrs.T.
She made it respectable for anyone to be filthy rich. Now anyone who has what it takes is too busy getting filthy rich to be bothered with public service. So public service is left to a bunch of people who still thinks status matters.
When they get into office, they suddenly find the idea of being filthy rich is actually quite attractive. That's when the trouble starts.
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#117 - power_to_the_ppl
'Ed Balls says he is "accountable" but not "responsible".'
We do seem to be hearing a lot of Balls lately don't we?
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re: 118
Lol classic. I wrote a good one about John Prescott but the moderators removed it, curses!
The Houses of Parliament quake
At another Nu-Labour mistake
So in a couple of years
We’ve got nothing to fear
Apart from that Miliband snake
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Brown was both "accountable and responsible" for the serial "growth" of the UK economy.
But the huge private and national debt was obviously down to someone else... Not sure who. Maybe that will come out in a future book on "My wonderful years as Chancellor".
Maybe it's the dummy who is now supposed to be looking after schools. But that's all Balls, isn't it?
I could actually vote for someone who said "OK, folks, I really stuffed this up and this is what I propose to do to get us all out of this mess".
Fat chance.
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re: 120
Hehe yeah, every time a Labour MP's lips move and sound comes out.
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#123 - power_to_the_ppl
Heard a great joke story on those lines but I don't think I could get it by our friends. Moderation in all things.
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Though Gordon's misrule will soon end,
Labour's success will depend
On spinning and cheating
(Please let it be fleeting)
To what depths will they descend?
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re: 124
I think I can guess the punchline and if it's what I'm thinking it's undoubtedly true.
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I just wish Brown and his ghastly crew of Balls, Burnham, Byrn, Milliband major and Milliband minor, Harridan Harperson et al would pack up and go. I can't remember when I last felt so angry with a government and helpless to do anything about it.
Sorry that this is not a terribly clever, subtle or amusing post, but I despair.
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What the country needs right now is strong leadership - Gordon B's position mirrors that of John Major. He's constantly having to look over his shoulder and therefore the affairs of the nation (which matter the most) have to take second place after party concerns. Whichever way one looks at it Gordon is a mortally wounded PM.
In my view Gordon shouldn't follow the example of John Major - he played it 'long' (ie called the election at the final point) then oversaw a result which decimated his party for over 10 years. Better to have a hung Parliament and a short spell in effective opposition to regroup than being decimated at the ballot box to the point that one's party is out of office for the next decade!
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re: 127
We all share your pain. Well, nearly all of us, the lefties are understandably keeping a low profile for now!
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#127 - woodfordhalse
"I just wish Brown and his ghastly crew of Balls, Burnham, Byrn, Milliband major and Milliband minor"
What a lot of Millibands! Oh and don't forget that Yvette Cooper is Mrs. Balls. Make of that what you will.
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Gordon's convinced he's the king,
Someone tell him that THIS is the thing---
Our country is riven
And he'll get what he's given:
A twenty-two and a half percent swing!
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Well I've got a little list...
...and the praetorian guard of harridans that GB has surrounded himself with are top of it.
Away with them!
Don't bring back Thatcher, her one liners were all written for her and delivered very badly, mostly because she didn't understand them.
She was the architect of the Tory years in the wilderness because she knifed every credible successor around her and backed John Major because he made her look good in comparison.
It's a pity the Labour party didn't learn from the trajectory of the last Tory administration, the wilderness years beckon for them yet again.
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Back on topic [sic]?:
A sly, cunning fox named Jack Straw
Craved the Prime Minister's job even more
Than that dour Gordon Brown
So he whispered 'round town
That Brown was psychologically flawed.
Straw sought help from his mate David Blunkett
Who said "Jack, are you sure you won't funk it?
Since you're nobody's hero
In fact you're a zero
Who thinks he can lead this failed junket.
Tweedledum and Tweedledee Milliband
Thought that one or the other should stand
But Ed Balls said "no way"
'Cos Yvette is away
And Harriet Harperson's too bland.
The PLP turned in panic to Hoon
Who immediately fled from the room
The MPs looked at each other
And sobbed, cried and blubbered
"We kicked out smarmy Tony too soon!"
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Said Yvette (as she tidied her smalls up)
"Poor Ed's made a bit of a balls-up
The Sats test I fear
Has ruined his career
Unless he finds a new idol and crawls up"
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So who replaces Brown?
"He (Ed Balls) stepped down as chief economic adviser to the Treasury, but was given a position at the Smith Institute, a political think tank with extremely close ties to Gordon Brown. He was reportedly paid £100,000 for less than a year's work. The Smith Institute is currently subject to its second Charity Commission investigation in five years regarding suspected breaches of the rules governing the impartiality of charitable organisations."
(This is not a news item. It is from his Wikipedia entry).
Not Ed then.
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When Brown woke up in the morning,
Dreaming of Labour, and yawning,
He turned to get up
And have his first cup
But something was finally dawning:
Said Brown, 'I can take it no more!
The Leadership wolf's at my door!
Oh where are my cronies?
Come back to me Tony!'
And he passed out face down on the floor.
When Brown got up from the floor,
Dazed, the first thing that he saw
Was a yob with a knife:
'Oh G*d, save my life!
I've not been this frightened before!'
'Give me your wallet you berk,
Your policies really don't work!
Now give me your cash
Or I'll give you a slash!'
And he disappeared, cash in hand, with a smirk.
'Oh no, oh how can it be?
These scum, they vote for me!
My policies have failed,
My ship it has sailed,
If only I could've foreseen!
Now I get it, at last, I'll resign,
I'll wake up and I'll grow a spine!
I'll escape with my life
And go straight back to Fife,
Join the Tories and things'll be fine!'
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Jack Straw is correct to call on the Labour Party to calm down. Simply, the arguing and negativity they're going through is the result of change from one leader to another, the Conservative's putsch, and change in the country. By stamping their feet and waving their hands they're only making their political raft more unstable. I note, another minister comments that a change of leader is an illusion as the circumstances would remain the same. This is quite true, and this collective type of thinking is an example of the classic Zen Masters. It gets no better.
The fear and anger the people are feeling is not unexpected after a generation of Thatcherism and Blairism, where asset stripping and consumerism were dominant. It hammered people and made the world a more uncertain place. As the pressure on that is released the arguments and emotionalism that are being thrown around is quite natural. By taking a more relaxed and gentle approach, the government will allow this to boil off and be ready to seize the new consensus when it emerges. Hopefully, one where people are more content and happy.
Government is needed to provide a focus, and by becoming a better focus the perspectives of people will change. As Britain took on the asset stripping and consumerist persona of Thatcher and Blair, the image of chaos the Labour government is temporarily moving through is creating that in the country. By side-stepping this whole affair and showing how they can help people succeed, be easier with others in society, and accumulate success patiently and as it arises, so the country will take on this new persona as well. And who would vote against that?
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133 ScepticMax
Out of evil comes some good. In this case a whole anthology of excellent verse and limericks has been created. Your entry is first class, far superior to the wretches it 'celebrates'.
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Terribly speculative
Straw is famous for being very slow to make his council known publicly.
It is one of the traits that makes him quietly popular with many people.
His behaviour here is hardly out of character
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re: 137
Interesting post, but you presume that our government is inherently good and that they're genuinely trying to do what's best for the country. This of course is nonsense, they're trying to make a mess for the incoming Tories to clean up. And we all know what happens when governments go rotten. One more point:
To quote Confucius: 'The Master said, "The requisites of government are that there be sufficient food, sufficient military equipment, and the confidence of the people in their ruler." Zigong said, "If one had to dispense with one of those three, which should be given up first?" "The military equipment, " said the Master. Zigong again asked, "If one had to dispense with one of the two remaining, which should be given up?" The Master answered, "Give up the food. From of old, death has always been the lot of men; but if the people have no faith in their rulers, they cannot stand."'
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We have had books, some wonderful poetry, now cinema! Just saw that old movie "The Godfather"
Maybe somebody will make GB an offer he can't refuse. Jack Straw, the Button Man?
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i stated months ago, that brown only does things that benefit him. he may be a buffoon when it comes to policy, but one thing we have seen over the years in the past, and with the way blair was forced out of office, brown knows full well how to look after himself within the labour party ranks.
deputy leadership elections, it was no surprise to me that harriet harmen, peter hain, suddenly found themselves tainted with donation funding, recommended from the brown camp.
ex cabinet ministers like clarke and blunkett undermined and if dirt was to be dug it miraculously surface in the tabloids.
how else did prescott's long standing "common knowledge" discretions suddenly come to light?
its the labour party way. brown knew he was facing major trouble sooner or later, the wise old head, has seen off all those that could have used their popularity within the party to mount a leadership challenge!
he has surrounded his leadership with "nodding dogs" like ed balls, millibands, blears, etc. they are no threat to him at all.
the common perception and quote weve been hearing for months is "there is no one who could mount a challenge to brown"
this is exactly how gordon brown wants it!
with the exception of one person his plan has worked perfectly... the one MP who had the wisdom to refuse donation money and advice from the brown camp during the deputy leadership contest, and one MP who has sat tight and said nothing, hilary benn!
as for jack straw, it doesnt take a degree in labour party politics to unearth his past conduct.
funny how his past record is forgotten?
when in the late 70s cabinet ministers and senior civil servants had information mysteriously leaked about them, from a certain office, where jack straw was working. try googling his labour past - a leopard doesnt change its spots!
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To everyone who thinks Gordon Brown is left-wing.
He isn't. He is centrist. New Labour is centre right.
I am left wing. Left wingers believe in:-
Unilateral nuclear disarmament
Increasing carbon taxes
Increasing union powers
Re-nationalising key assets such as rail, gas, electricity, water
Scrapping the ID card scheme
Binning the EU
Lots of other good things you won't like but will eventually have to acept cos there's no money.
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Might as well get a final dig in tonight. Saw GB on TV News with Obama. Interesting body language. GB the official 'host' and prime minister, whilst Obama the visitor, and as yet unelected. However, it was Obama who appeared completely at ease, and twice placed his arm across GB's shoulder, an almost concillatory gesture. It somehow made me feel sad, GB's vulnerability made me momentarily forgive all the agro he has caused so many.
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#139 - Gurubear
"In the 2004 Equatorial Guinea coup d'état attempt, Jack Straw was personally informed with months in advance of the plans for the takeover attempt and failed to accomplish the duty under international law of alerting that African country government. The involvement of British oil companies in the funding of the coup d'état, and the changing of British citizens evacuation plans for Equatorial Guinea before the attempt posed serious challenges for the alleged ignorance of the situation. Later on, British officials and Jack Straw were forced to apologize to The Observer after categorically denying they had prior knowledge of the coup plot." Wikipedia again.
Took his time over that too.
Next candidate please.
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#144
And both with left hand in their pocket - reminiscent of Blair/Bush cloning.
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re: 144
'It somehow made me feel sad, GB's vulnerability made me momentarily forgive all the agro he has caused so many.'
That's what he reminds me of, Colin Welland in Dennis Potter's 'Blue Remembered Hills'.
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At post 15.
Here here.
I am absolutely appalled that I have finally realised that as a Labour supporter and member and activist since 1978, I now see it as my job to destroy the mutated creature I helped create.
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re: 148
Lol, Labour's like that enormous monster in resident Evil, the one with the huge eye in its chest and the massive claw.
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The views of Messrs Straw and Blunkett (whatever they may be) will not be helpful or relevant.
Brown would do far better to listen to fellow Scotsman, Private Frazer from Dad's Army.
Unless he changes his policies, and fast, "you're doomed"
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#148 Red Lenin
Quite right (in my brief incarnation as a member of the Labour Party, to my shame I voted for Blair as Leader).
However, I can't resist quoting brigadierjohn from Brian Taylor's blog -
"did you see the guy who posted "here, here" instead of "hear, hear" the other day?). Hysterical. I felt like responding "Where, where?""
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#148 - Red Lenin
Strange how, in popular culture, we have come to fear Frankenstein's monster whereas in Mary Shelley's original, he is a pitiful and helpless creation.
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re: 152
Pitiful and helpless perhaps, but he still does some pretty nasty stuff.
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#151 - oldnat
. . . which is why I love setting MA2 up on the other blog. He'll shoot himself in the foot before the night's out.
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And sooner than I thought oldnat - check out Robin Lustig's blog. Good night.
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If GB wants to have any hope of avoiding total annihilation at the next general election he should start to fulfil the manifest pledges of the last election.
the BIG no 1 being a referendum on the recent EU treaty. Every single opinion poll comes out in favour of LESS EU integration but we always get more and more.
No 2 get to grips with immigration. Its gone from being a joke to being criminally irresponsible
No 3 sort the West Lothian problem which is bordering on racism (its ok for Scotland to have free prescriptions, no tuition fees etc and make England pay for it but its not ok for the English)
I could go on for a bit but most will get the point. You can get away with a little fib now and again but don't expect the electorate to believe an out and out lie. Also break a small promise or two and we may forgive you, break a major electoral promise, (one that actually helped you win the last election) and lie about it (EU treaty)and we wont
Might as well say good bye to brown now and thanks for ermmmm NOTHING.
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This sultry July
A dour Scotsman gets killed
And it's not Macbeth
The scene - Glasgow East
A twenty-three percent swing
And Labour is wounded
Cameron looks good
Thanks to the incompetence
Of the PM Brown
Honest it may be
Incompetence is not good
Save for Mr. Bean
I can see it now -
"I'm free!" so says Gordon Brown
But whisky sure isn't!
To dare to compare
Brown to Blair is not too good -
Both are "kneed" jackets.
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re: 157
Ah, the great haiku!
It's small and perfectly formed
Quite unlike Labour.
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What's next for Gordon?
Leadership contest perhaps?
Yes. The end is nigh.
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#155 threnodio
While I pride myself on wind-ups - "I am not worthy". Well done!
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It's election time.
Snow falls on the plum blossom.
Labour are wiped out.
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Damn you New Labour:
Man arrested for smoking
In a public place.
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A rainy morning.
Gordon Brown breaks down and cries
Into his porridge.
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re: 158
Now, if I weren't completely knackered, I'd try channeling Sir W. S. Gilbert, since we've now had limericks and haiku (thank you for the compliment, delivered in haiku, yet :) )...
...let me try, anyway...drinking and lyrics don't mix too well on the BBC blogs, so it's just as well I drink a pint every four months on average :)
...no - I can't do it properly without sleep - sorry...
...so let me channel Mr Tom Ballard, instead:
"Gordon Brown puts the 'tense' in 'incompetence'..."
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Please Lord have mercy,
There's so much legislation!
Tangled up in red.
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What's wrong with Labour?
Too many chiefs but there's not
Enough Indians.
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re: #93:
So, is it fair to say that the current PM is more like Indbur III, of whom Asimov said was neither brutal and capable, as his grandfather was, nor was he merely brutal, as his father was, but merely a bookkeeper in the wrong job...
...okay, from Thatcher to Blair to Brown, is that an analogous succession to the Indbur succession (Blair reverses qualities with Indbur II, but since he only truly possessed one quality, the analogy still fits)?
And who would be the Mule in this scenario? How about the People's Republic of China, for a start?
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I have overdosed
On poetry tonight. Bye
Acmebetatest!
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#166 pttp
Thank heavens! You are in favour of increased immigration, and there was me classifying you as a reactionary blimp.
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Alright this is the last one (re: 169, lol)
You can't get a pint
Into a half pint glass, yeah?
Britain is full up.
Night!
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#167 Acmebetatest
Liked your response - I was beginning to think no one out there had read Asimov!
"bookkeeper in the wrong job" is probably the best description yet of Brown's position - thus proving absolutely the value of psychohistory.
China does not seem to be the best candidate for the Mule (who, as you know, was sterile).
If we need to find an unpredictable individual, who blows history off course, but then history corrects itself, Bush might be a candidate.
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If Brown cheered Wakey
At the Cup tie tomorrow
I could forgive him
If Brown gave Rooney
an O.B.E. for his work
I could forgive him
But he would bodge it
And give it to Wayne Rooney
And not to Jamie
But Jamie will hold
the Challenge Cup very soon
And Gordon will mourn
For even the thug
'Disorderly Duncan' is
Less incompetent.
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re: 171
Well, China has a male/female birth ratio of about 1.2 to 1 - and a fairly strict "one child" policy in most cases...
...that, and lack of resources compared to population, makes it, imo, effectively sterile, and expansionist - since it can't sustain itself long term without massive expansion...
...and it can hurt us immediately, since it has a surplus of just about any currency denominated debt instruments you can name.
Bush would have been a better candidate four years ago - however, he now has grown much weaker, like Indbur III and Brown.
You are right - one person has to be the Mule-like character to keep the analogy aligned properly. For now, the leader of the CCP is my nominee, since China has been historically weak in the modern era, and is now gaining tremendous power.
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who are the halfwits who keep advising brown to reel out the same lines ad nauseum? "getting on with the job", "tough decisions in tough times", "what we're doing is right for the long term". Has he been awake during the last six months because nothing he is saying has changed?
if i was a labour mp right now i would do i david davis, resign and restand as an independant on an anti-brown message. it's their best chance of winning and if enough of them did it we'd get the change of government we all want
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#173 Acmebetatest
On the other hand, China may be the Second Foundation!
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People are raving and posturing because they are. There's not necessarily any reason behind it apart from being caught up in themselves and events. Making a single move against this just triggers the response like whiskey to an alcoholic. Neither explaining this or appealing to kindness works. All you can do is smile and pretend you enjoy it until people snap back to reality or burn themselves out. In the meantime, getting your own house in order and getting on with the job helps you stay in a fit state for when affairs return to normal.
People often project their own ego onto the world around them. The accusations of arrogance and untrustworthiness is mostly their own faults and failings filtering their experience. People are raving that the world isn't built how they want, or other people aren't kissing their ass as they want, and this frustration is being blamed on the biggest and easiest target. That the government has continued to focus on getting the job done, bringing people together, and working for the long-long term is really quite remarkable under the circumstances. This is the real elephant in the room but legions of online armchair egos won't admit it.
Most of the media comment is about competition and personalities. This creates a lot of razzle dazzle and whips up a crowd but doesn't show a true and rounded picture. As with an item like health policy, the media has taken the most salacious item from this issue and twisted it in a way they suppose generates headlines and chatter. This is lying and greed by another name, and hides a reality they don't want to talk about: newspaper circulation figures are soft and set to plunge heavily. Creating a media that's responsible and relevant is hard but kicking the government is easy. This is a weakness they will pay for if they don't change.
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#176 Charles_E_Hardwidge
I'm sure you thought you were making a point, bu I have no idea what it was!
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The government is doing a remarkable job while its more spinless critics make things worse, most of the comment on the internet is just so many people mouthing off, and the media is scared shitless of falling circulation figures.
Of course, nobody likes being accused of lacking steel, an ability to deliver anything useful, or of having weak support so they indulge their vanity or make excuses. Most of the comment on the government is driven by this jealousy and fear.
People think the world will be better if they where in charge or their desires were met, but this is a fantasy. The world doesn't change unless people change. Until big business, the media, and public accept this for themselves they will always suffer.
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#178 Charles_E_Hardwidge
Oh, you're a Labour supporter - no wonder your posts were incoherent.
Never mind, you'll be sober tomorrow.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
176:
You represent the more philosophical, less abusive arm of The Labour Party but in my view you are just as deluded as your colleagues in your support of the Government of today.
You say:
"People are raving and posturing because they are. There's not necessarily any reason behind it apart from being caught up in themselves and events."
I say people are seriously concerned about, the cost of food, fuel and utilities and what it means for their lifestyle (mortgage defaults, no going out to eat, no holidays, fewer trips out etc.). They realise that part of this is down to world events but they also know that some of it is down to decisions made by The Chancellor when times were good. It is incredibly condescending and patronising to accuse ordinary people of having knee jerk reactions on these issues when this is patently not true.
You say:
"In the meantime, getting your own house in order and getting on with the job helps you stay in a fit state for when affairs return to normal.
I say you could actually be Gordon Brown speaking as he reacted to the Glasgow East By Election result. "Most people want me to get on with the job of running the country's affairs and that is what I propose to do". Of course he has to get on with the job. That's what he's paid for. He can't just go and sulk in a corner and let the country go to pot. What the majority of people want however is for him to step down and either call a General Election in order to endorse his policies or allow someone more competent to have a bash.
You say Gordon Brown's woes are solely down to the criticism of armchair egotists and the media. Poppycock.!!! The man has plotted for years to attain his present high office and now that he has made a pig's ear of it he deserves to be replaced. People are not as stupid as you appear to make out. Stop making excuses and at least begin to acknowledge that GB bears at least some responsibility for his present position!
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Good news
GA has given Camerons bike back, I wondered where he was yesterday.
But whats he kept the front wheel for?
Perhaps he building a swingometre for the garden.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7527403.stm
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In contemplating the result at Glasgow East perhaps the government should recall that in his mad moment in Sheffield at the end of the 1992 General Election, Neil Kinnock said that `tomorrow a million people would be back in work'. He could not understand how he lost the election.
Towards the end of the Glasgow East by-election the government came up with rigorous plans to eliminate Incapacity Benefit to get the unemployed back to work
Is there a common thread in all this?
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What I want to hear from Gordon Brown relates to the treatment of civilian detainees by elemnets of the British army in Iraq.
Apparently Parliament has been looking into the treatment of prisoners and have found that the wonderful Ministry of Defence have been somewhat economical with the truth.
Now some of us have thought the same for some time, just look at the the cases brought to Courts Martial and the fact that one soldier admitted an offence and others were cleared.
Now we are being told that training was not all that it should have been. I hope that there is not going to be a huge cover-up over this because surely we are not going to be told that we did not know what was going on because only an idiot would insult my intelligence.
After the defeat of Nazi Germany many pleaded ignorance or that they were following orders. This is no defence. Britain is guilty as charged, as are the leaders, not only the military leaders but also the political who must haved quizzed the military and received answers that they wanted. If they did not ask the questions then they are also guilty.
Now the MoD are now probably going to plead that there is an inquiry into the death of at least one Iraqi and therefore they cannot comment! This is not acceptable. Who runs this country, Gordon Brown, elected memebers of Parliament or the Ministry of Defence? I think I know the answer , do you?
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I'm just a Zen Buddhist, and have no allegiance to any dogma or party. If you knew anything about my views or knew me as a person you'd retract every single word you just said.
Wow. I just took a bullet for Gordon.
*clutch* *clutch* *aaaagh*
Didn't work, sweetheart. ;-)
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#170 power_to_the_people, errrrrrr, what does the acronym (as I assume it's an acronym) 'lol' represent?
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#176 Charles_E_Hardwidge, ok, I hear what you're saying so could you please therefore furnish me with some facts to support this?
How exactly are we getting it wrong?
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GORDON BROWN, GO BACK TO SCOTLAND!
ENGLAND IS SICK OF YOU AND THE DAMAGE YOU HAVE DONE.
CALL IT A DAY! HAVE A BIT OF SENSE.
JOHN MAJOR TOOK OVER A SINKING SHIP AND YOU AND YOUR CRONIES HAVE NOW SCUPPERED IT!
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Harriet Harman on BBC Breakfast TV this morning "Gordon Brown's unpopularity is solely down to world economic circumstances" and nothing else. Does she honestly believe this and if she does does she honestly believe that we agree with her observation? She said that leaders from around the world telephone Gordon to seek advice on economic matters. More fool them.
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185 wrote:
"I'm just a Zen Buddhist, and have no allegiance to any dogma or party. If you knew anything about my views or knew me as a person you'd retract every single word you just said."
Please enlighten me as to your true views and allegiances aside from the fact that you disagree with those that disagree with or dislike GB . I'm interested to know more about the inner you and what makes you tick.
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185:
Any more big hits against Gordon and it is he that will be firing the bullets at himself. I thought the word was 'aaaargh' not 'aaaagh'. That seems rather tame in comparison almost like the dying breath of a hero in the movies.
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lol = 'laugh out loud' doesn't it?
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Charles,
Nice to see you've not lost your zen mastery of a-political commentary. Such a gift to the world.
So jolly Jack and Blunket the bully are having flights of fancy about their powers as kingmaker. Perhaps the're even contemplating giving it a go themselves. I hope so, as that'll finally push New Labour over the edge. But I don't think either of them'll do it, they have deeper reasons for spreading dissent. My take on it: I suspect that it's no coincidence that Carol Voderman has quit countdown. Someone's been thinking quite radically in the New labour camp.
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re: 176
"That the government has continued to focus on getting the job done, bringing people together, and working for the long-long term is really quite remarkable under the circumstances."
This simply isn't true. If you believe that then you are completely insane. They're not in control, they don't know what they're doing. Whilst what you say elsewhere may hold true for government in the abstract, it doesn't apply to New Labour because they are dishonest. 'People are raving and posturing' because Labour have been in power for too long, they've presumed they always will be and so they've grown bloated and diseased. The country's unhappy because they now know it!
re: 186
It means 'laugh out loud', extremesense!
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A question to Gordon Brown. If people from around the world phone you up and ask for advice on economic affairs what advice do you actually give them?
A. How to fool the people into paying huge amounts of extra tax and get nothing to show for the money taken from them!
I would love to ask our great leader a couple of questions but unfortunately as I reported earlier the PMs e-mail site has been down for some time and looks as though it will never see the light of day ever again. The site went down in late June but apparently we can use the new 'twitter' service. What twit thought that one up.
I have another problem, Tony Blair was the PM and Gordon was the Chancellor, responsible for the economy. Tony apparently as PM had nothing to do with the economy, thatbwas Gordon's job.
So what exactly is Gordon doing getting involved in the economy of the UK, surely that is the job of Alastair Darling, or what is the point of Darling. Actually with action man Gordon what is the point in anybody else doing anything at all, if they succeed it is because of Gordon, if they fail it is down to them.
I really cannot wait for the impending cabinet reshuffle, now that is when we find out who the real supporters of Gordon are. Talk about the Titanic! Where is the orchestra?
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Waiting in the wings
For far too long, Brown won't give
Up power lightly.
Autumn mists over
The Houses of Parliament.
Let the games begin.
New Labour's safe seats
Are not safe. Like Brigadoon;
Going, going, gone.
All of a flutter,
An abandoned red rosette
Lies in the gutter.
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Watching the News last night and going through the papers today looking at pictures of the Browns "on holiday" I am struck by how socially inept they appear. What are the spinners doing?
He went on a publicity walk about in Norfolk, he knew the cameras would be there so what was he dressed in? When the temperature must have been over 25 degrees and all around him were in shorts and t-shirts he wore a jacket (at least he kept his tie in his pocket). His poor wife Sarah had been done up in a black winter frock and a pink sweater. As my wife said "who wears pink with black these days?"
He really is out of touch and just doesn't "get it" Sometimes it looks as if he has spent the last 15 years on a cheap day return to Mars.
Oh and welcome back Charles E Hardwidge where have you been? I have really missed your mystical insights into British politics.
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I am sick of hearing that no one realised the slump was coming. I saw the slide coming in September 2006 and told the government so. I just got a letter back from the Treasury which was a complete waste of a postage stamp and reminded me of a Tax return jargon.
Our slump has just been speeded up by the American housing market, it didn't start it. The labour party should have done something to stop our housing market getting out of control instead of rubbing their hands at the huge amount of stamp duty they were clawing in. The housing market would be helped if the stamp duty was more realistic. The percentage jumps are ridiculous but that would mean less money for the treasury, AHH!!
Right from day one the buck was passed on a lot of things so that the then prime minister looked good if things went wrong.
I am sick of hearing what the Labour Party have done for young families.How can they ever learn to manage money if they are given it hand over fist. When my children were young we only had the family allowance for one child. Everything else we had to earn and manage on. I have managed through at least 3 recessions and this is going to be the worst if it is classed as a recession although at the moment they say it is a slump!! I never lost my house although one time we did get behind on the mortgage. I just went out and earned more by working my socks off. None of the 3 recessions has been as bad for me.
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re: 189
No-one believes her, but she'll probably get the sack if she tells the truth.
Game's up Harriet.
Discriminate against men,
Lose half of the votes.
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Can I give you a quote from the Tony Blair speech to the troops in Iraq which was made on 29th May 2003:
'And I just wanted to say to you, because I know people back home, you know you will read lots in the media and the newspapers, I just want to say this to you. People back home are incredibly proud of what you have done. You have made this whole country, our country, hold its head up high, and I think that is a wonderful, wonderful achievement. It is your achievement and thank you.'
Now I know that speech was made by Tony Blair and he led us into the war, but Brown supported it by paying for it. He is culpable.
The point is about the reports now coming out about a parliamentary committee being 'possibly misled' by the military about mistreatment of civilian detainees. I am sorry Gordon but how can we really be proud that we have lost hearts and minds in Iraq because of what has been going on.
It is not the economy stupid that many of us are concerned about it is about the wars in Iraq and Afganistan. Enjoy your holidays Gordon but will anybody else take on the responsibility for explaining yet more deaths of our soldiers. The truth is out there and as we find out that truth the worse it will get for you and other labour MPs who have got us into, not only a military escapade that we cannot win, but also an economic one. We cannot win either, we are defeated.
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re: 200
Too many lives lost.
How much oil do you want?
Blood on your hands, Brown.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Are we about to go back to the politics of the Eighties?
Clearly GB is finished. It is just a matter of time. Either he'll pull the trigger, Justice Jack will or the whole country will. That will be the end of the New Labour Blair Witch Project.
The "real" big issue is what comes next in British Politics?
I suspect the Labour Party will move to the Left, Michael Foot style, in a bid to -reconnect with their core-vote.........as they have lost the support of even the die-hards and will need to re-group here before Middle England will even speak to them again. This will take many years.
The Camroons will in the short-term remain in the "centre" but the severe budgetary problems that "Boom and Bust" Bottler Brown has presented this country with after a decade of financial bingeing will mean that radical right wing Thatcherite solutions will have in the end have to be applied to get this country back on a long-term even keel. These solutions can only come from the Conservatives...........and in the end they will NEED to adopt really bold clear blue water policies. Once that happens either just before or just after the next election ( once they have a good look at Brown's bookeeping) we'll be moving back to the politics of the Eighties..................ushering in at least 3 conservative victories in a row............
Poltics is going to exciting again for the next decade at least!
Gordon will have at least done something good for all of us political anoraks...........
A passionate debate to get involved in based on political values and ideology.
Conviction rather than "sofa" politics is about to make a comeback. Thanks Gord!
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Having listened to Ed Milliband, Harriet Harman, David Blunkett et al on TV, the current Labour tactic appears to be to redefine and ringfence the problems as being totally economic in nature and beyond the control of Gordon Brown. Harriet Harman has even stated that "they should'nt make a political crisis out of an economic problem. "
This approach conveniently paints New Labour and Gordon Brown as a bunch of honourable people who are the victims of events around them.
This doesn't include or explain the judgement behid the 10p tax band, car tax increases, the election that never was, the missing tax discs, tax credit overpayments. Or the increasingly centralised control they are imposing on our way of life etc etc.
Much of this is a result of Gordon Brown playing politics instead of getting on with the job. In my opinion the 10p tax band/2p off income tax was an attempt to wrong foot the tories on their own ground - tax cuts. But it ended up with the everyone attcking him on his own territory of looking after the poorest in society.
Someone said on TV that what is needed is not so much a change of direction but a "sense of direction" Where is Gordon's vision going to take us? The steps so far do not look promising.
They really don't "get it" all.
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It seems to me that when you have a coronation rather than election, you end up with a party leader, not a prime minister and an administration, not a government.
Labour only has itself to blame. It should have had the debate then. It's too late now.
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Just had an extra through bath this morning after watching and listening to Harriet Harman. I felt that my knees were dirty, grazed and muddy, and that my neck and ears were really dirty. In other words, I was a schoolchild once again, and that horrible Miss Harrison had given me a stern warning.
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185. Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
Re: I'm just a Zen Buddhist
I thought the art of Zen taught us to search inside ourselves for enlightenment. That there are no answers outside ourselves. We can alwyas find the answers in the same place that we found the questions.
So what you doin in ere then?
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#192 waldorf29, thank you, I was feeling somewhat stupid for not knowing.
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#194 power_to_the_people, thanks - good to have that cleared up.
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#208 extremesense
Not as stupid as me - I thought it meant "Lots of Love", till my daughter put me right.
Made some of the posts seem really strange!
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The end of Labour:
How will it be, with a bang
Or with a whimper?
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According to the Observer (a paper I loathe, but everything else had sold out this morning):
"Gordon Brown was accused last night of desperately attempting to buy off a deadly cabinet revolt, after it emerged that Labour's chief whip [ie. Hoon], a key player in the attempt to oust him, is being lined up for a plum job in Europe." What a surprise.
What is the EU?
A force for good? No, it's the
Elephant's graveyard.
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Can't quite understand where my 202 went. T'was merely a quote from a 2007 article which questioned GB's economic nouse as well as his prudent legacy well before the so called 'World Economic Crisis' which is now being blamed in a united Cabinet voice for all his present woes. BBC what are you up to?
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18 more months of dead duck government is depressing..........
However, this could well be the final death throws of the Labour Party as a political body - which in istelf is of historical interest.
When was the last time a major political party imploded - The Whigs? (SDP doesn't count - insignificant party).
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Better still
ROFL
Rolling On Floor Laughing
Usually follows comments by any one claiming Zen status.
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Post 214.
You've picked up on it.
This isn't a poltical sticking plaster moment like the transition of Thatcher to Major or even Bambi to Bottler.
This is the beginning of a seismic shift in British Politics, the prelude to civil war in the Labour Party as they thrash around trying to find a direction that works. Old Labour is about to make a comeback at their conference in a few weeks. Watch this space.
Dave will be able to be even more right wing...............and get elected!
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Apparently they are now considering a 14 billion tax giveaway to sweeten us back into the fold. Would anybody be fool enough to fall for such an obvious bribe? It's rather typical of their misapprehension that GB's problems are solely down to the economic climate and nothing else.
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How can Gordon clean
This mess up? Can he? Answers
On a postcard please.
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206. Phoenixarisen
It takes more than a bath.
The High Priestess of our paranoid, mollycoddled, risk-averse, airbagged, booster-seated, culture of equality, political correctness and 'elf'n'safety fascism gets under your skin and stays there.
If youve been exposed, Im sorry but there is only one solution.
The guns in the the second draw down on the left.
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217. waldorf29
If thats each then he might just have cracked it.
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#217 "would anyone fall for an obvious bribe?"
Well, me for a start. You give me £14 billion and I publicly promise, here and now, to vote Labour at the next election.
What are vague Tory promises of tax cuts but an obvious bribe to the lectorate. ... it's how politics has always worked. 200 years ago, politicians handed over wads of cash for your vote. These days it's slightly more circumspect and called tax cuts, but it all amounts to the same thing. It's the same the world over ... it's just that in the UK, it's very slightly less blatant.
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216Northen thatcherite, The civil war you need to worry about chum is if the Tories get in, then sit back and watch the break up of the union and its implications.
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This is not the moment for points scoring between the two main parties at Westminster. Perhaps everyone is focused a bit too hard on who lost Glasgow East rather than who won it. The 'seismic shift' is the perception of Britishness. It is clear that a good many Scots are beginning to see independence not as a pipe dream but a credible alternative. The English are beginning to wake up to the raw deal they got when Labour did not see devolution through to its logical conclusion.
Not in my lifetime can I recall a better opportunity for someone with a bit of political nous to pick up the electoral reform baton and run with it. All the figures suggest that PR, at least in England, would serve the Tories much better than Labour so they have a good reason. The LibDems were always committed to it but they also realise that it is the one sure way they can make the breakthrough. The SNP have provided proof if any were needed the PR works in practice.
The only big losers from electoral form would be Labour and they currently seem to be on the run. Surely now is the time for a political consensus which recognises that the present constitutional arrangements do not serve us well. I have expressed my view before that I see a federal system as the way forward. Others will not agree and there are other models which could be followed. But now is the time if ever there was one.
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#221 - pat the cat
I don't think they mean 14 billion each Pat
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re: 224
Are you sure they don't?
The Tories will have to pay
So why should they care?
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183 Srtanific, Sadly there's a awful lot of truth in what you say.
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223 Threnodio, do you honestly believe that not having a effective opposition in England if the Tories get in,will be a good thing.
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Expenses reform?
Don't make me laugh. What you mean
Is 'no expense spared.'
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Why be an MP?
To serve the UK? Or for
Grace and favour homes?
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Time for talk has passed.
'I'm getting on with the job':
Not good enough, Brown.
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Leafing through The Times, I have just come across this quote from a Labour back bencher:
"Personal loyalty is important, But in politics, ultimately the party has got to come first."
That just about sums it up doesn't it? What about the bl**dy country then?
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#227 - grandantidote
No grandantidote. One of the obvious benefits of electoral reform would be an end to indecently large majorities which do not reflect national opinion.
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re: 231
That is the problem,
You are right threnodio.
As Carrots has said:
Their objective is
The retention of power.
Britain comes second
To their silly games.
They change the rules to avoid
Answering to us.
All we can do now
Is punish them by voting
For somebody else.
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Positive consensus would be a good thing, if people can take a moment out from arguing and finger pointing to achieve it. But, people can't stop competing or blaming each other. This is the British disease.
Looking beyond the immediate personal, national, and international difficulties, I recall commenting some months ago that we were on the edge of a new golden age. A recent UN report just confirmed that view.
As with most things, the real barriers to success are illusuary. Daft ideas and emotionalism clutter the view. Simply, by letting go success walks in the door. No effort required. Presto.
The business decisions you make, purchases you make, ideas you discuss, and people you meet all play a role in developing success. Government provides focus but you have to make it happen.
Arguing and whining is just so much mind chatter. It doesn't make anything happen or change anything. That only happens when people do something or agree. And that's why positive consensus is important.
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Re #214 jonathan_cook
"When was the last time a major political party imploded - The Whigs?"
Funny you should ask that. The Whigs were always opportunist, but this time they're about to meet their "Waterloo" for a second time.
Their opposition to spending on the French revolutionary wars ended badly for them and they only recovered with electoral reform in 1832, by going underground as a virus inside the growing Liberal Party.
They jumped on to the growing Labour bandwagon when the Liberals looked like becoming extinct after Lloyd George lost the plot and some didn't even jump ship with the SDP rebels, preferring to wait and see before committing themselves.
They only started to "come out" after Kinnock's two general election defeats and emerged as the dynamic duo of Bliar & Brown to found the now-crumbling dynasty of NuLabour.
Maybe 2010 will convince them of the need to push for electoral reform a second time.
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re: Charles_E_Hardwidge
I think you're over-philosophising; the truth is much simpler; people are annoyed because they've see all their money being sent down the toilet by a negligent government for the last 10 years and then being constantly lied to about it, it really is just as simple as that.
Labour just can't run an economy properly; people finally understand that after more than 10 years of their negligence.
It took a while for the chickens to come home to roost because of the obfuscation/lies that Brown used since day 1, but the obfuscation/lies can no longer hide what massive damage he's caused as people can see the effects all around them in day to day life now, whereas before it was more like just a balance-sheet time-bomb.
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re: 234
"Simply, by letting go success walks in the door. No effort required. Presto."
If this was the case Labour would be the most popular government of all time.
"Arguing and whining is just so much mind chatter. It doesn't make anything happen or change anything. That only happens when people do something or agree."
How can people achieve an agreement unless they exchange ideas? Sorry Charles, but you're talking out of your Labour.
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231 threnodio Its the B---dy country that voted them in now its up to whichever party to hold itself together in order to honour the voters confidence, I will expect snide remarks but that does answer your question.
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re: 236
Yep.
A fortune in tax
Has disappeared this decade.
Where has it gone? Flush!
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#238 - grandantidote
The snide remarks will not be coming from me. You are right. But the country and the people are one and the same. A politician will always put party before country. It takes a statesman to put the country first.
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The science is on my side. Between getting dazzled by the government's action and carrying grudges around, arrogant big business, a fairweather media, and all the point scoring and divisiveness of opposition for oppositions sake, the government is holding up well.
What Gordon Brown has to do is ignite the spark of success in ordinary people, remind the country of a sense of fairness, and have the fortitude to ride through the few bumps in the road we're experiencing. This is the mature and, ultimately, more rewarding path.
What do you want to do with your life? How do you want people to treat you? Is this achievable and considerate? Perhaps, you expect too much, or you aren't giving yourself a chance. The Prime Minister can't answer these questions for you. Only you can do that.
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Re posts 26, 8, 9, 14, 21, 30, 31, 33, 40, 51, 54, 55, 62, 63, 73, 75, 78, 79, 83, 90, 91, 107, 109, 111, 115, 117, 121, 123, 125, 126, 129, 131, 136, 140, 149, 153, 158, 159, 161, 162, 163, 165, 166, 168, 170, 194, 196, 199, 201, 203, 211, 212, 218, 225, 228, 229, 230, 233, 237, 239.
25% of all postings on this topic represent the mindless meanderings of a bore. Well, thanks mate, you've convinced me there is a point in joining the Labour Party in spite of Brown - to protect this country from people like you. Yawn.
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re: 241
You say: "the government is holding up well"
It isn't though, is it? It's on the brink of implosion! You must have been snoozing for the past 12 months Charles.
You say: "What Gordon Brown has to do is ignite the spark of success in ordinary people, remind the country of a sense of fairness, and have the fortitude to ride through the few bumps in the road we're experiencing."
Um, no, what he has to do is stop saying 'I feel your pain', 'I'm getting on with the job', 'people want me to take the right long-term decisions' etc and change his entire approach to government or make way for someone else. Yes, and stop wasting our money on frivolous nonsense, and stop taking out huge loans.
You say: "What do you want to do with your life? How do you want people to treat you? Is this achievable and considerate? Perhaps, you expect too much, or you aren't giving yourself a chance. The Prime Minister can't answer these questions for you. Only you can do that."
How is this is related? Please drop the pseudo-intellectualism Charles, your post doesn't even make sense. Look, I've read the Analects and Mencius and the Chung Yung and all that stuff, you're not the only one you know. Give it a rest. I know I can get carried away with my posts but there is method in my madness, you however are using the New Labour tactic of trying to confuse the person with whom you are communicating. Please please stop stop!
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re: 242
Ah, a bore. How long did it take you to count them and note them down?
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#242 - plebpower
Whether or not you agree with power_to_the_ppl, it takes a particular kind of bore to trawl through the entire blog and religiously copy all the numbers of his posts. Haven't you got anything better to do?
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re: 245
Ta.
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The New Labour project was swept in on a wave of spin. It was virtually impossible to get at the reality of government, as the fog was created within which journalists seemed unable to get at real information, so little criticism was reported.
All this stuff about change and modernisation sounded OK. But over a decade, this lot have confused "change" with "modernisation". There are too few politicians with experience of planning and delivering products or services in a real-wealth economic enterprise.
There are plenty of guys and gals with good degrees who may have blagged their way into graduate, fast-track schemes in plcs.
Those are the guys you have to watch the closest. Bright, but with little experience of change-impact... whether on people, processes, or future money management.
Introducing change is easy. Takes a few minutes to issue the executive edict.
Creating improvement is trickier. You may not truly know whether a change has delivered improvement for a year or two (much longer in some cases).
Brown didn't like the fact that tax "relief" could be equally applicable to a pauper or a prince of industry. So he came up with a series of complicated credits.
It seems that the staff who should administer it are not really sure of how it all works in detail, the computer systems the government commissioned don't do the job and there may be the odd GBP 2 or 3 BILLION to be written off...
I don't blame claimants who get caught in this sort of trap.
I blame the politicians who invent this sort of crap.
Clinton said "It's the economy, stupid!". Well, "Keep it simply, stupid!" should be the key-note for cabinet ministers.
Take the message back to your departments. Tell the Brussels pack to back away from any area that is not falling over.
You don't measure governmental success by the number of initiatives they introduce. A bit like companies, you measure then on what they actually do. By all measures I can see, this lot have failed.
They've done lots of things, but they haven't controlled the budget.
They've had professionals up and down the country trying to keep up with laws, rules and regulations that spout forth daily.
The best chance Brown/Labour have of retaining any sort of UK political base is to shut Parliament until spring 2010. (OK, maybe call them back to enable financing provisions.) Just leave people to get on with hacking their way through the dead undergrowth you've created.
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Post 222
Isn't it ironic that when history is written it will be GB's own beloved Glaswegians that will have finished off GB's career by stabbing him in his political heart. What a verdict!
But even now.has he got the message............to leave office immediately? No he is carrying on with his job without a mandate.......and intends to go on and on!!!!!!! Ego and arrogance reigns supreme!
With regard to Scottish, English or Welsh independence..........well there isn't a groundswell for any of this in any part of the country.............so it won't happen and we won't get it. What we do want through is a strong principled government..........not a tried looking bunch of bunglers hanging on to the bitter end like the Fuhrer in his bunker!
Post 242
Hey Plebpower..........everyone's comments here are an expression of FREE SPEECH. Everyone on this blog has a right to make a debating point. It's a pity that you couldn't. I am sure you can do better than that.......so why don't you have another go please.............
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There is nothing like a very civil war, which nobody talks about, that is not happening with people who are just going about their jobs.
p.s.
How do you un-seat someone who was not elected in the first place?
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I do realise that we can't just close the doors on MPs. (If we did that, they'd be all over the place, trying to grab photo-opps and generally getting in the way.)
How about the notion that, for every new law, rule or regulation, to be accepted, then at least one unnecessary l,r or r had to be voted off the statute book.
That'd keep the b's busy and should slow down the amount of damage they can do.
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Re #223 threnodio
Only just got back to this forum after meandering elsewhere, but you're pretty much spot on.
The only minor disagreement I have with you is where you say "The only big losers from electoral form would be Labour". I think you're wrong there in that it would save them from probable meltdown next time, and at least give them a firm base from which to look inward and recover their soul.
I don't understand why they don't see that as the abyss approaches, but it's probably too late in the current election cycle anyway for Cameron's Tories to even consider the all-party consensus that would be needed to get it through. At least they could try and fail gloriously instead of going out with a whimper.
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Post 250
Paragraph 2............what a good idea! Well done!
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Post 250.
In fact for every new law lets delete 10..............................European directives!!!!!!!!!!
Smaller government please!
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re: 253
Excellent idea. The larger government grows, the more cash disappears into its cavernous maw, and that cash has to come from us so they raise taxes. Instead of keeping the government as small as possible, which is the sensible solution, they lie and spin to cover it all up as necessary expenditure. The EU is the worst offender though Labour come a close second. Who made up those silly laws about banning misshapen fruit and veg? What a load of Ed Balls.
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#249 - tobytrip
He was elected - by the Labour Party.
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Die, zombie Labour!
How do we finish them off?
Garlic? Crucifix?
Silver bullets? Or
Maybe holy water? No---
The next election.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re 255
Thank you, but i must have missed it.
Now could someone answer these please?
How many votes did he get, what was the percentage of the turn out, who was he running against, was Robert Mugabe his campaign manager?
Thank you.
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Re #258 tobytrip
"How many votes did he get" None
"what was the percentage of the turn out" Zero
"who was he running against" A framed of John McDonnell
"was Robert Mugabe his campaign manager?" Don't Know
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Re my #259
Sorry, I pressed Post too soon.
For "A framed of John McDonnell" read "John McDonnell's Ghost"
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Gordon Brown received 313 PLP nominations.
John McDonnell received 29 nominations which was short of the required 12.5%. He therefore withdrew and GB was elected unopposed.
His campaign manager was Jack Straw.
Robert Mugabe was probably in charge of security since he and Jack seem to be eye to eye on these matters.
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Re #261 threnodio
I don't often disagree with you, threnodio, but "GB was elected unopposed" is not quite the case. The Labour NEC acclaimed him as leader on the basis that because he was "unopposed" (under the NuLabour rules) no ballot was necessary.
One trick ahead of Zimbabwe, which at least gave voters the satisfaction of being able to spoil their ballots 2nd time around.
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Have just read the following in Scottish Sunday Herald;
LORD KINNOCK is being courted by key members of the cabinet to deliver the uncomfortable truth to Gordon Brown that he has to put Labour's future before his own and resign as prime minister.
Looks like the plot thickens!
http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2410436.0.0.php
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262 - Brownedov
I think we should meet half way on this. He was unopposed and in those circumstances it hardly matters whether a vote was taken or not. Indeed, elsewhere I posted a critical remark about political 'coronations'.
My point was that he didn't just stroll in with his CV and get the job. He was 'chosen' by the Labour party so the answer to the original question of how you unseat him is to get the Labour party to 'un-chose' him.
Unless you know of some way to force an early election.
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Yet another damning indictment against NuLabour!
More bad news for Brown came last night in an opinion poll which showed Labour trailing in third place among voters in the Tories' top 30 target constituencies. The survey, carried out by analysts CrosbyTextor, saw Labour slump to just 17% - 24 points behind the Tories and one worse off than the Lib Dems.
It is rumoured that NuLabour are considering a suicide elect this Autumn or next Spring!
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/latestnews/Labour-considers-39suicide39-election.4329065.jp
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re: 265
Great news!
Labour in three words: nobody's first choice.
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A rumour is circulating that Nu Labour desperately need a sexy leader to attract the public. To Harriet Harperson's horror, she learned that the said candidate is Max Mosley.
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~242 plebpower
Mieow - you are JEALOUS, so there!
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Looks like Browns followers are advising him to be bolder with his vision!
Big, small, large or bold vision - it can only end up in tears for him!
Any success is unlikely given his track record thus far!
His failure is best recorded by a quote from one of his fellow countrymen;
- - - - The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men, gang aft agley. - - - - -
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re: 268
Ta for the implicit compliment! Saw this on one of the Times website's blogs [re: the possibility of Straw becoming caretaker PM]. It made me chuckle:
Nu Labour Leaders very much likened to the epic tale 'The Wizard of Oz'
First we have the Cowardly Lion Blair the disappearing warmonger.
Secondly Tinman Broone the heartless tax collector.
Now we may have Straw the Brainless Scarecrow bringing more meaningless rules and regs.
Come back Merlin.
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#242 plebpower
Well, thanks mate, you've convinced me there is a point in joining the Labour Party in spite of Brown.
Just be careful you don’t get caught in the rush by members running the other way!
Whoops - too late!
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Take a minute to check out Robin Lustig's new thread, people. It's very good.
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Re #264 threnodio
I certainly agree re 'coronations'.
I hate to nitpick, but feel any electoral monitors would be reluctant to declare his 'election' a free and fair expression of the will of the membership of the Labour Party. But we're arguing angels on a pin-head here so will nitpick no more.
Re the Labour party's unchoosing him, the official hurdles are higher now as sitting leader than they were in '07 but if one senior government member broke ranks, I think he'd soon get the necessary number of turkeys to nominate him in the hope of avoiding an inevitable Christmas.
My #25 of yesterday asking for info re such people in marginals met with no response and I haven't yet found a data source which would make it easy to produce a ranked list. I'll keep trying but although the HoC have such a database they only seem to make it available through PDF reports not easy to parse, and the Harvard one is out of date.
My gut feel is that he if is not "unchosen" he'll be frogmarching his lobby fodder into voting to extend Parliament in May 2010, when our only "constitutional" safeguard would be the hope that QEI/II could dissolve it.
Somebody must be reasonably sentient in the upper echelons of NuLabour for them to be floating the idea that Labour considers 'suicide' election. That's certainly the leastworst hope for them that I can see, but I do not believe Brown has the guts to do it.
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#263 - Roll_On_2010
I thought Kinnock's speciality was snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
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#273 - Brownedov
There is a complete list here:-
http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/area/uk/mps.htm
It is not a database but is at least arranged in tables so I should be able to do this quite quickly. I will keep you advised.
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Around the time Blair came into power, Britain started to enter the post-political age where image, personality and working the media was (and still is) everything. This was due to major cultural changes and shifts in society such as the rise of the internet and such like, but anyway Blair tapped into this and so came to power on a wave of popular support. But Brown acts as if he's completely oblivious to this way of doing things: he might as well have been in hibernation since 1997. I suppose this is quite an obvious point to make but if Brown can remain so deluded/defiant? in the face of important cultural shifts than doesn't this show that he's either living in the past, which isn't very wise for a PM, or that he's refusing to accept the present which is possibly even worse?
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Re #275 threnodio
I came across that URL yesterday, but it's quite a bit of work to consolidate because you need the %ages for their opponents. Keele did have something better I used about a year ago, but I still can't find it.
Harvard has a better one in XL format, but didn't update it properly after the 2005 election.
Don't work too hard on it - I'm sure there's a better one somewhere.
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241 etc CEH
Welcome back to the blog again, Charles - your somewhat unique and tangential contributions and insights have been missed recently.
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I'll try again:
Phoenixarisen @138 - You are too kind.
Chuck E Hogwash: A while back you stamped your little enlightened feet and promised to go away in a zen-like manner (I originally wrote it more graphically) and not bother making any more comments to this blog. Why have you broken your promise? Why should anyone pay attention to your pretentious ramblings if you can't even keep your own word? Finally, if you like attracting abuse to this degree maybe you should join Max Mosley's club.
Plebpower @242: Please do join the Labour Party. I'm sure that they'll benefit from your highly exciting tendencies to list and catalogue. Please make sure to show them your fine collection of belly button lint.
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Re #275 threnodio
Digging around the Keele site, I found what I need at: Constituencies in order of turnout
This can be pasted straight into XL to make a start on the analysis.
I have posted this on the RL thread too.
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Breaking News
Prescotts comes out on Browns side.
Prescott warns over PM challenge
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7527725.stm
Right then so he really is doomed now.
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Scotland would be better off voting for independence in the forthcoming referendum planned for 2010. Alex Salmond and SNP doing a good job governing Scotland.
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None of them at the present moment has anywhere near the skills and experience, nationally and internationally, to lead this great party and country
John Prescott 27/7/2008
And the Carrot started praying.
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Re #281 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
LOL.
I suggest you share your wicked sense of humour on Robin Lustig's new Memo to Gordon Brown
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re: 283
I still think a crash test dummy could do it, as long as there's a tape recorder inside it with 'I am making the right long term decisions for this country' on an endless loop. I mean if Brown can do the job... Oh that's right, my mistake, he can't.
The haughty Nu-Labour elite
Are certainly in for a treat,
We'll kick out that shower
(Lock them up in the Tower?)
And throw tomatoes at them in the street!
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#280 - Brownedov
If you now go back to the original Keele page (http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/area/uk/mps.htm) and make a separate worksheet, you can then merge the data
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For around ten years now I have been political blogging and at times it seemed a very lonely task trying to convince English people that England and Scotland need to go their own ways.
Certainly around 1997, very few people I came across on the blogsphere felt the same way.
Now, however, this notion has gone 'mainstream' and professional political commentators such as Simon Jenkins (Sunday Times) are convinced that the Union is finished.
Jenkins also seems to concur with some comments I made on this blog recently that an independent England will be revitalised and run a truer (to English aspirations) course, as Scotland is already.
Whether Labour stick with Brown and are virtually wiped out or they choose a new leader and salvage something at the next General Election, it will not change the moves towards full independence for Scotland and by default, England.
Crafty Alex Slamond and the SNP will win the referendum either way, with either the Tories in full control or alternatively, with some sort of 'hung' Paliament at Westminster in 2010.
So I am looking forward again, trying to visualise what the English political landscape will look like in the new paradigm around 2010/11.
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Here is your "cut out and keep" Portillo List of the cabinet for the next general election in order of the turkeys closest to Christmas:
Rank, Majority%, Incumbent, Turnout%, Constituency, Job
1, 5.09%, Ruth Kelly, 63.56%, Bolton West, Secretary of State for Transport
2, 6.74%, Jacqui Smith, 63.80%, Redditch, Home Secretary
3, 16.49%, Alistair Darling, 64.99%, Edinburgh South West, Chancellor of the Exchequer
4, 16.54%, John Hutton, 58.97%, Barrow & Furness, "Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform"
5, 19.16%, Jack Straw, 57.50%, Blackburn, Secretary of State for Justice
6, 19.61%, Des Browne, 62.16%, Kilmarnock & Loudoun, Secretary of State for Defence; and for Scotland
7, 21.52%, John Denham, 53.81%, Southampton Itchen, "Secretary of State for Innovation, Universities and Skills"
8, 23.64%, James Purnell, 54.18%, Stalybridge & Hyde, Secretary of State for Work and Pensions
9, 24.29%, Geoff Hoon, 57.35%, Ashfield, Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury and Chief Whip
10, 26.24%, Shaun Woodward, 53.80%, St Helens South, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland
11, 26.73%, Ed Balls, 57.46%, Normanton, "Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families"
12, 33.97%, Alan Johnson, 45.24%, Hull West & Hessle, Secretary of State for Health
13, 34.95%, Douglas Alexander, 62.91%, Paisley & Renfrewshire South, Secretary of State for International Development
14, 35.15%, Hazel Blears, 42.41%, Salford, Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government
15, 40.08%, Ed Miliband, 51.15%, Doncaster North, Minister for the Cabinet Office; Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster
16, 40.66%, Hilary Benn, 45.79%, Leeds Central, "Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs"
17, 40.76%, David Miliband, 50.91%, South Shields, Foreign Secretary
18, 41.11%, Paul Murphy, 59.31%, Torfaen, Secretary of State for Wales
19, 43.58%, Gordon Brown, 58.37%, Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath, Prime Minister
20, 46.27%, Yvette Cooper , 53.25%, Pontefract & Castleford, Chief Secretary to the Treasury
21, 46.51%, Harriet Harman, 50.79%, Camberwell & Peckham, Deputy Leader of the Labour Party
22, 47.34%, Andy Burnham, 50.35%, Leigh, "Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport"
The above may look a mess but should paste into any spreadsheet program as CSV
Sources:
Names and job info: Labour's Full list of Cabinet members as of 24 January 2008
Constituency majorities & turnouts: Keele Uni's Constituencies in order of turnout
With thanks to threnodio
Posted on both the NR and RL blogs
Please post any errors spotted
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Re #286 threnodio
Thanks, but I had already merged the cabinet from labour.org.uk with their constituencies, so the XL behind my 287 was easy to merge directly.
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Re Post 248 -- northernthatcherite
Your comments regarding 242 are wasted plebpower is probably a labour person like the others that post on here already using misdirection.
2 possibilities spring to mind
1) The fact he/she listed every post is proof enough he/she has other motivations for the comment.
to qualify this if I find someone's comments 'boring/wrong/or they appear to live under a magic mushroom', I simply don’t waste my time on them anymore.
My first impression of 242 is it appears to be a clumsy attempt to plant a seed in readers minds that none labour supporters are dim witted daily fail reading boring buffoons which is far from the truth.
2) The other alternative is that plebpower is so weak minded he or she will let a few lines in an insignificant ranters blog change their minds.
I favour option 1 for the simple fact no one with any common sense would read a blog like this and take it seriously enough to change their voting habits.
1 or 2 - you decide which
The only one that has any real insider insight on here is nick robinson, even if I disagree with him on occasions the rest is just partisan posturing and armchair politics by the regulers.
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Nice job brownedov. Did you do the whole house?
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I thought it best to publish the "Portillo" list to give others a chance to see it first before commenting on it myself.
Come the general election, remember that the swing needed to unseat them will be exactly half their majority %. So Brown's majority of 43.58% will disappear with a 21.79% swing - a tad less than Mason needed in Glasgow East.
I confess to being saddened that Little Miss Sunshine is 14th on the list but cheered by Ruth Kelly and Jacqui Smith heading it.
Looking at the next group who could be unseated on an 8% to 12% swing, the obvious heavyweights who might consider passing the poisoned chalice are Hutton, Straw and Denham in that order, with Straw still my favourite to "take the plunge".
Somehow, I can't see Darling having the courage, while neither Browne nor Purnell have the experience to win should they stand.
The others from Hoon on down may feel fairly safe with a swing over 12% needed to remove them but I wonder how they will feel after a summer of even worse poll results.
A swing of Glasgow East proportion would leave just Yvette Cooper, Harriet Harman and Andy Burnham to form the new Labour Shadow Cabinet.
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Thanks for that Brownedov and threnodio!
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# 274
Neil 'triumph of the will' Kinnock may have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory but what happened next is most informative.
He got the 'consolation prize' of a juicy berth in the EU bureaucracy.
Similarly, Tony Blair/William Hague et al seem to have done quite nicely since they lost the top slots.
Eventually the penny must drop for English folk and the realisation dawns - WE are the outsiders, barely tolerated by the 'professional political class'.
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# 292
In the post-Scottish independence scenario, Labour will be better positioned in England, despite being a much smaller political entity than it is now, if they return to 'proper' socialist roots.
That means they should turn to 'this weeks {whatever} Minister' Alan Johnson sooner rather than later.
Alternatively, for genuine socialists, I do believe that there is a proper Socialist Party in England, run by a certain Arthur Scargill, who knows how to deal with 'the jackals'
Err, that's your lot Nick.
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Re #291 threnodio
No - for now I've just done the cabinet. With the other list from Keele I could certainly do the lot.
It's getting late and I'll be paying a visit to the real world tomorrow, but I may try doing it for the lot, with separate lists by party, later in the week.
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Re #295 JohnConstable
You may be right post the Scottish referendum, but I'm unconvinced that it would be in Labour's interests immediately.
Certainly they should start looking after their roots again or the swing could reach Glasgow East proportions, but they'll risk sheeding even more of the "post-Thatcherite" centre if they go too far.
I haven't heard much of Scargill's party of late, but I doubt he'll be offering a new home to any of the NuLabour Politburo.
OTOH, if his party can nibble away at the "core" Labour vote it can only make life easier for whichever of the Tories or LibDems is No.2 in any particular constituency.
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#296 brownedov
You may want to put a copyright statement on your whole House calculations. That way you could have a claim on the paper which publishes an article from a freelance hack who steals your work.
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#242
From #200 thank you very much for not including me in your list.
What I wonder is why do people not put their real names to their postings.
Exactly what is it that they fear to divulge.
Do not e-mail Gordon Brown because he only wants to listen to his own voice telling us that he listens, he feels our pain, that we are hard working/pressed families, that he is making the tough decisions blah blah blah we will get through this with him as leader
Well when will the killing stop Mr Brown, just when will the killing stop, and I don't mean just our soldiers, I mean the innocent civilians, the women and children. You see I have a problem because I want to know how many of 'the enemy' have we actually killed with our lethal disproportionate weaponry. Is nobody ever captured, nobody injured, what is happening Mr Brown, what is happening in my name T. A. Griffin.
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Well done brownedove and threnodio you both deserve a round of applause.
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The British lack of leadership, teamwork, and the long, long view doesn't help. As markets expanded, experienced staff retired, and raw candidates were sucked in we've seen a lot of clever people run the show but the average smarts has dropped like a stone. You can see that across a lot of industries including the media. It's not great in the short term but by keeping a focus on quality, teamwork, and the long, long view things will improve. Again, it's another reason not to argue or posture but "get on with the job" because action follows focus.
The personality type of the Prime Minister is similar to Steve Jobs, Baroness Scone, and Ieyasu Tokugawa. This personality type has an almost obsessive drive to improve quality, get people working together well, and building things to last. If Gordon Brown has a weak spot that's with practicality and sociability, and keeping his feet on the ground. Those weak spots are being flushed out but as he becomes more confident in his ministerial team, more at ease with public appearances, and more settled into the job, this will be ironed out.
I commented many months ago that the underlying trends are towards practicality and sociability, and quality and fairness. Any savvy politician or pollster knows this by now. This is indeed a seismic change in British politics but one that tends to favour the Prime Minister more than the self-styled replacements for the job. The people who would otherwise be capable aren't up to this challenge, and the people who claim to "get it" don't "get it". Their execution betrays their hand. It's reasons like this that convince me that the only show in town is Gordon Brown.
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#301 Charles etc
"Their execution betrays their hand. It's reasons like this that convince me that the only show in town is Gordon Brown."
Penetrating post-modernist commentary. However, you need to explain to thos of less gifted -
Whose execution?
What show?
Which town?
and
Can I get tickets?
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The Chuckle Brothers on the opposition benches just don't have clarity of policy and ability to deliver. Neither Cameron or Clegg have the grasp of purpose or resilience to deliver. Any government with them running the show would be directionless and flabby.
The Labour Party is giving itself a hard time at the moment but this stumble is helping them transcend their old defaults of gesture politics and squabbling. Meanwhile, the Tories selfishness and Liberal's fantasies aren't being tested. That's the difference between action and talk.
The political climate is mostly focused on competitive behaviour and personalities, and very little on real policy and the ability to deliver. This favours the braggarts and smoothies but it's an illusion. The second reality hits this bubble will burst.
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Peculiar quote from Mr Balls, reinforcing my suspicions that our politicians barely speak English as a second language...
"The thing we have to show is the strength, the discipline, the backbone as a party to do what the public wants"...
Doing what the electorate wants is surely democracy - what alien world is it where doing what others want you to do is 'backbone'?
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I see that our man of the people, GB, is hiding himself away in Southwold.
Top Grade 2 listed house, costing only £4500 per week. What the poor could do with a little of that.
Much funnier is the fact that people booked into the Swan Hotel there were ringing to find out if Brown was staying there, and if so, wanting to cancel.
What a popular man Brown is.
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Dear CEH
No need for long involved articles. Just two sentences suffice.
Brown is finished
Labour is finished
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303:
Charles. You are so living in cloud cuckoo land. How do you know that Cameron or Clegg cannot deliver? They haven't yet been in office and had the chance. Still you maintain that you have no particular allegiance to The Labour Party and are effectively neutral. Just don't see it unless you are a member of The Independent Party or The Monster Raving Loonies.
Any Government with them (Cameron and Clegg) running the show would be directionless and flabby you say. What's so different to what we have now? A fair number of policy initiatives are made either to win over or to placate the voters or The Media and then u turned when they appear not to work.
"The political climate is mostly focused on competitive behaviour and personalities, and very little on real policy and the ability to deliver. This favours the braggarts and smoothies but it's an illusion" you say.
Gordon Brown was one of the biggest braggarts on the planet when he was Chancellor. He's been rumbled now of course. He certainly isn't a smoothie. He doesn't have either the charisma or the character to pull that one off. Behind closed doors he may be perfectly okay but as a P.M. in my view he is a walking disaster!
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What is this nonsense about the British lacking the ability to do long term thinking?
The high speed rail link; the channel tunnel rail link; the gas power plant building programme of the Major years; the M6 toll road; the Eden project; Toyota, Nissan and BMW building car factories in the UK; all these were initiatives started by tory governments and taken to successful conclusion.
The only party that can't do long term thinking is the NewLabour party. Why does it spend so much time dithering, talking about the need to do 'joined up thinking' - because it can't do it.
NewLabour can pay higher wages to a few doctors, nurses and teachers but they have no idea how to govern. Taking the long term decisions for the fiuture of the country? Don't make me laugh. NewLabour have done more back peddling in the last twelve months than any political party in history; more u-turns than a broken satnav.
Now we're about to have even more u-turns on policy as the Unions have demanded a Warwick II at which of course they will suggest the reversal of all of the trade union legislation of Thatcher; how ironic at precisely the moment that France chucks out the 35 day working week and Sarkozy gets his reforms through that we decide to relegate ourselves to the third division. Welcome to BrownWorld.
It says it all that the party who demand us to believe they are competent to lead us through difficult times are incompetent enough to not even have a mechanism for the removal of the most unpopular prime minister of modern times.
Look at the faces of the ministers listening to Gordon Brown's fumbling speech at Warwick and tell me with your hand on your heart that they believe he can win. His crass attempt to imitate Cameron without notes backfired as he repeated himself and lost the thread. his aimless wandering around the stage in front of a helpless official who didn't know where to look only served to highlight the sense of the absurd.
Gordon Brown is boorish beyond belief and totally unsuited to the needs of this country. The voters of Glasgow East had the right idea and the whole country will be next; if his own party don't get there first.
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re: 301 and 303 Charles_Blabbering_Hardwidge
You say: "The personality type of the Prime Minister is similar to Steve Jobs, Baroness Scone, and Ieyasu Tokugawa."
Hmm yes I certainly see the connection. Ieyasu Tokugawa lol. Silly old Charles.
You say: "The Chuckle Brothers on the opposition benches just don't have clarity of policy and ability to deliver."
I think you'll find the Chuckle Bros. are the Milibands, who at the moment evidently can't fawn over Brown enough but when the moment comes to plunge the dagger in...
You say: "The Labour Party is giving itself a hard time at the moment but this stumble is helping them transcend their old defaults of gesture politics and squabbling."
Wrong again, it's doing the exact opposite, it's guaranteeing that they won't be re-elected because they've all given up hope. Common sense says that if they smile and say how wonderful things are going when faced with a situation like this then its much worse than they're letting on, if that's even possible.
Charles your posts are puffed-up prattle, but you might be able to convince people you know what you're talking about if you chucked away the thesaurus and stopped defending a party who have looted, pillaged and lied about the extent of the damage for 11 whole years.
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I know policies and people, and you have my analysis. Almost any by the book examination of Cameron and Clegg as people, and their policies throws up similar pluses and minuses.
My focus tends to be strategic. The fact that Labour under Gordon Brown is closest to that, and the mountain of self-selecting detractors filling this blog are so large tends to skew things a bit.
The problem with these comments sections is the differing levels of experience and vested interest. So far, about 90% of what's in here is noise. Want better politics? Chew on that for a while.
A quick look at the media this morning flags two stories trying to spike Brown and steal some of the limelight. But, again, they crumble under scrutiny. People try it on or delude themselves. Doesn't mean it's so.
Mostly, I think, people generally benefit from knowing what works and how other people tick, and taking a step back. You can get books on this or just open your eyes. Don't take my word for it. Try it for yourself.
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The British don't do leadership, teamwork, or the long-term. It's just a fact. Ask any economist - Britain's economic fundamentals are screwed.
A side by side comparison of Labour versus the Tories shows Labour pushing investment while the Tories subsidising failure. Again. If Britian is to move forward it has to rise above itself.
I tend to make a case and flesh it out with examples and anecdotes. It's not too bad for a rough sketch, and contains stuff people may find interesting. Plus, I don't go around chewing people's heads off.
I can cite plenty of examples where I've analysed or predicted things bang on in this blog alone. For most of the end of last year I was leading the national dailies by 1-3 days on issues. Go check.
Pssst. Thanks Mr Straw. Same fee next time?
LOL.
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I havent read all the posts here yet so forgive me If I am repeating what someone else hase said.
When the very grey non-personality John Major was in this situation he called a leadership election himself to pull the rug from under the plotters.
It would seem that Bottler Brown knows he is so sunk he cant even try this tactic.
As for some who have been saying Major was the same as Brown trying to hang on until the last minute until calling the election he lost, I say this, At least his government were making things better and selflessly created an economy worth inheriting instead of the complete oposite that we have now where the Labour party appear to be making things as bad economically as they possibly can.
Its the old 1970's tactic they used to practice, make it so bad that the incoming government cant turn it around in one term and have to make tough decisions hoping that voters wont have the patience to leave them to finish the turn around and vote labour back in after one term. It failed in 1979 it will fail in 2010.
Thank you Ken Clarke that when you left knowing you had lost you left the economy in such a good state that we have been reasonably insulated from Browns meddling until now.
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The only people who crumble under scrutiny are Gordon Brown and his apologists.
He set up a banking regulation system that failed at the first hurdle; he sold our gold at rock bottom prices; he made one of the worst gaffes in plotical history when he axed the 10p tax band; he smashed up the best pension system in the developed world; he has lead us to the worst budget deficit figures since 1946.
No-one should listen to economists and no-one should liste to Gordon Brown because he is one. It's not a science and has no predictive power. Sadly, Gordon Brown's determination to believe he can 'control' the economy is causing him to meet his nemesis; everything goes wrong all at once and there's not a darned thing he can do about it except spend more money.
This is not a way to run a country. There is not the slightest evidence of long term thinking form this government; where are they going to get the money form; where are the incentives for business and long term investment; in short what are they doiung for the wealth creating part of the economy? The answer to that, of course, is giving it a higher and higher tax burden and more and more regulation and higher and higher employment costs.
This is a short trip to ruin.
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I wonder when the national media will pick up on the removal from command of Captain Jeremy Woods who was captian of HMS Cornwall at the time of the capture by Iranian forces of sailors and marines based on the ship he commanded.
Apparently, the MoD has issued a statement along the lines that he 'has been removed from command'.
Now I wonder why the MoD do not issue a statement to the effect that Gordon Brown has been removed from command, because it is obvious that he should be.
When there is failure it is the captain of the ship who pays the price, some choose to go down with their vessel, others take the option of getting into the lifeboat.
Sorry Gordon but what are you going to choose? Because if you go down with your ship then please do not take me with you.
The Navy as usual have standards, standards which have been lost to many in our society. So Gordon are you going down or are you going to abandon ship.
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Chuck E. Hogwash @301,303, 311, Zzzzz...
Writing nonsense in a pompous and prolix style doesn't afford it veracity.
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Re #302 oldnat
& #306 mikepko
& #307 waldorf29
& #309 power_to_the_ppl
All such good stuff that there is little more to add in response to Charles_E_Hardwidge 's #301, #303, #310 & #311.
Elegant use of language is no substitute for the failure to address the issues. Even grandantidote occasionally makes valid points.
If this block of posts is truly representative of the intellectual wing of NuLabour then they're even more finished than we thought as not one word of them will do anything to save the neck of a single Labour MP.
If you haven't already Charles_E_Hardwidge, I suggest you ask the top 10 on the Portillo list how they feel about next time.
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Jack straw, bless him, knows that it was no good changing the captain of the Titanic after it had hit the iceberg.
He will do the only sensible thing, put on a bonnet and get in the lifeboat and hope to get the captaincy of the Britanic
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So now the British don't do leadership or teamwork as well as long term thinking?
This sort of -ve thinking is exactly what took the Labour party out of power for eighteen years.
So who won the Rugby World cup in 2003? Who won the ashes back in 2005? Was Dame Kelly Holmes representing a different country when she won two olympic golds at Athens.
The truth is socialists don't like this country and don't want it to be great again because then their nannying, sure start, new deal ways can take over.
Well you an take sure start and the new deal and put them where they belong; in the dustbin of NEwLabour failed policy initiatives. Give us back our country with its heroes and hard work ethic and respect for the underdog. Take your NewLabour meddling with you back into obscurity.
'We'll take care of you' is one of the most damaging, undermining, insincere and hubristic political philosophies ever invented. The British people and working men deserve better.
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Re #312 Pot_Kettle
Well said, but it's a shame for democracy that NuLabour are likely to lose so badly next time that there may be little effective opposition to keep them on their toes. It's no surprise that governments with decent parliamentary majorities always resist electoral reform, but without it England may well have to continue sailing into its post-imperial sunset alone.
You'd be crazy to like Labour's asymmetric devolution but you'll not put the toothpaste back in the tube. Unless somebody completes it fairly, the union is a dead duck and with England will find it hard to hold the UK position in Europe and the world.
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I've pretty much named the key issues holding Britain back and the difference in policy approach. I could also cite plenty of management theory and examples from history to back this up. Whoever you are, wherever you are, whenever you are, reality is a constant. It's just how things are. I anticipate the Brown project will take 20 years to deliver but looking at, say, the innovation, social ease, and general wellbeing of the post-war boom, I think, we have some hope things will work out.
My position is that business needs to develop a more forwards investment approach and be more loyal to staff, and shareholders be less greedy and pay more fair. Not everyone agrees but this is a more strategically sound course. In contrast, the Tories and Liberals major policy initiatives prop up or encourage failure. That's just a fact and something they need to spend time polishing.
The government aren't perfect but I've seen a few sparks and subtle signs they're rising to the challenge on a personal level, and the golden glow of policy is beginning to show through the mist. When Gordon Brown delivers his much anticipated keynote and the success stories of people, business, and international affairs are given the nod, this should begin to turn the ship in a more favourable direction and add upwards of 10-20 billion GBP to the UK economy.
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Re #317 Pot_Kettle
I hope by the use of the word "bonnet" you're not suggesting he moves his sphere of activity to Holyrood. It would end in tears, but then it's likely to whatever he does.
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311 wrote:
I can cite plenty of examples where I've analysed or predicted things bang on in this blog alone. For most of the end of last year I was leading the national dailies by 1-3 days on issues. Go check.
Could you extend your powers a little further into the future and predict for us whether Gordon Brown will hang on to power or be ousted by one of his own Ministers before 2010 and who that person might be. The result of The GE would be handy and what desperate bribes will he attempt to use before he goes down with all hands? Do you think all of this spells the end of The Labour Party as we know it or do you predict a resurgence?
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320 and 322:
Thanks. That goes part of the way towards answering my questions. Your optimistic tone is encouraging for the General Public but unless you possess a crystal ball and have access to economic forecasts we are not privy to we have no way of knowing whether your confidence is well placed. Gordon Brown's current economic record certainly doesn't fill me with any great confidence particularly as it is mooted that he is considering throwing 14 billion at tax cuts at a time when The UK is already 555 billion in the red.
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Happily NewLabour will now have to re-reinvent themselves as people have begun to realise that socialist beliefs allow no place for the self - see Chuck Hogwash's appeal to the Zen Buddhist in all of us.
But no belief in the self equals a continuation of such policies as the Job shirker's allowance...no self equals no self respect.
Of course there's a self and we should all have the self respect to never vote for the Labour party ever again under whatever guise it presents itself.
Labour equals the undermining of the individual's belief in themself so they become dependant on and vote for the state. Luckily the British people appear to have woken out of their slumber on this one and are voting them out at every opportunity; Crewe and Nantwich, Holtmprice and Howden. Glasgow East and the London Mayoralty.
The tide of politics has turned and there isn't a darned thing NewLabour can do about it.
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@321
I hadn't thought of it that way, I was just eluding to the fact it should have been only women and children in the Titanic lifeboats.
@320 At Charles Hawtrey you do carry on so!
In your second paragraph you state that tory and liberal policy prop up and encourage failure. I put it to you that it is socialist welfare policy that does that. that is certainly more fact than you position.
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There is only one 'keynote' speech Gordon Brown can deliver in which anyone will take an interest; when is he going to call an election so the country can decide if they approve of his 'vision'?
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Charles E Hardwidge
We have two eyes to see two sides of things, but there must be a third eye which will see everything at the same time and yet not see anything. That is to understand Zen.
D. T. Suzuki
I think your third eye talks too much.
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well if people from all around the world are ringing up asking Brown for advice, would that explain why the whole world is heading into recession?
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Re #320 Charles_E_Hardwidge
"When Gordon Brown delivers his much anticipated keynote and the success stories of people, business, and international affairs are given the nod, this should begin to turn the ship in a more favourable direction...."
Unless he spends his summer learning delivery from a master (where's his old chum Bliar?) it will come out in the same "tractor production statistics" mode as always and frighten the horses even more, irrespective of whether there's a word of real hope or wisdom in it.
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There's major economic gains to be had from new technology and emerging markets. That's free money on the table but needs business to get over itself and start making the future happen and employing people. By plugging the middle-management gap and dishing out real jobs to people in economic low spots, quality and inclusiveness will similarly rise.
Any fool can cut costs and subsidise charities to hand hold broken communities but creating real economic growth and social improvement takes vision, determination, and a little faith. The opposition parties have some of that but only Gordon Brown delivers the whole package. And we need the whole package.
Britain is standing on a nexus. It's one of those rare moments in history where we can seize opportunity and be a player, or freeze and slide into the wastebasket of history. Maybe that's over dramatising things a bit but life is about choices and, sometimes, those choices matter. I think, people just need to reflect on that.
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Brown:
At first I was afraid, I was petrified
When I heard 'bout Glasgow East and watched our ratings slide,
But then I spent so many nights
Thinking how I did them wrong
But I'll grow strong...
Miliband:
Oh no! Oh what to do?
If Gordon stays much longer then there'll be an autumn coup!
I'd love to be the Boss,
But I'm really at a loss,
I know our time is up
And that the plebs don't give a toss!
The Public:
Go on now! Walk out the door!
Just turn around now,
We've had enough of 'New' Lie-bore!
Weren't you the one who hurt us with more tax,
No more excuses,
We've had enough Brown, just get off our backs!
Brown:
It wasn't I! I will survive!
As long as I know how to spin I know I'll stay alive,
With all the taxes that you give
(Though they're like water through a sieve) I will survive,
I will survive!
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Nick,
I have tried to keep out of the debate about the end of Brown because it is painful to watch. However, CEH keeps driving me back to the keyboard with his pro Brown remarks. In case he isn't aware, Scotland is no longer willing to return Labour candidates virtually unopposed, despite the so called subsidy from the English taxpayer, and the presence of Scots in the Cabinet as well as PM and Chancellor. Does CEH think that the Scots are favouring the SNP because of their desire for independence, or could it be that they simply don't want Gordon or Labour in power any longer? Does he believe that these voters are wrong and that he is right?
Meantime, I note that CEH suggests that Brown is growing into his role, yet dismisses out of hand the possibility that Cameron or Clegg might grow into the role of PM. So in Charles' view, you can teach an old dog new tricks, but not younger ones!!
Finally, I note that Charles credits himself and Brown with being strategic. Is that why we have yet to see any commisioning of new power stations as old ones are coming to the end of their lives? Or perhaps, that would explain why he introduced the 10p tax rate only to have this obliterated a relatively short time later. Or even the decision to introduce tax credits, with all the upset and distress caused by HMRC when dealing with claims.
Very Strategic.
Have a nice day.
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re: 324
"Labour equals the undermining of the individual's belief in themself so they become dependant on and vote for the state. Luckily the British people appear to have woken out of their slumber on this one and are voting them out at every opportunity; Crewe and Nantwich, Holtmprice and Howden. Glasgow East and the London Mayoralty."
That's it exactly. Why else do Labour tax so much and then hand it back as benefits? They kill two birds with one stone: (a) Create another layer of management to pass the blame on to and (b) Undermine self-belief by forcing people to be dependent on the state!
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@329
I agree about the stalinist tractor production lists but i will stick to the Titanic analogies.
He is a bit like lightoler at the moment. He saw the Ice berg late tryed to port around it and has left the old girl fatally holed below the waterline.
His cabinet are like the string quartet, stood on the deck fiddling as public panic.
And who came of worst out of that disaster? the third class who they have locked below decks in the Glasgow East and Crew and Nantwich suites.
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re: 330
"The opposition parties have some of that but only Gordon Brown delivers the whole package."
Based on what evidence?
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@331
P2p are you wierd Al Yankovich in disguise :-)
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335. power_to_the_ppl
Don't seek reality, just put an end to opinions.
Sheng-ts'an
Sounds like a good bais for fresh autumn policy.
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Good. That's a step up from the earlier comment about about Zen. Of course, Zen has just wriggled another inch away. It does that. Sneaky.
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Charles E H
Ah but, when you get there, there isn't any there there.
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Personally I wouldnt trust anything Suzuki says.
Mr Honda i sa different matter. Much more reliable
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Briantist wrote
"Perhaps Gordon Brown should just accept he isn't going to win at the next election and do some bold and brave things, leave the next term to Dave C and hope Labour can recover for next time.
For example:......"
If there was a politician brave enough to do that sort of thing they would have my vote in perpetuity (well at least until they messed up my life)
Planning for retirement under NuLab .... like catch water in seive!
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Dear old Charles:
This ship isn't for turning. You have to face the facts. It is likely that after the next election, New Labour, or Old Labour, whatever you prefer, will die as a political force in this country. The shambles that is New or Old Labour, will in time, occupy some out-of-the-way section of some obscure academic thesis, to be read by one or two people forced to do so to get their PhDs. That will be some time in the future, but it will happen. Old soldiers like yourself will reflect on the 'good old days' when expectations were high but delivery was low. You might even get a slight touch of excitement when one or two of your favourite politicos turn up on day-time telly, ahhh, but then you'll remember how it all went so badly wrong and shed a tear at that lost opportunity so long ago. My friend, this is your future. If scotland goes its own way, as is possible now, New or Old Labour will become a spent force: a sad collection of dead heads, half wits and loonytunes, that should have realised that sometimes things need to be 'done' not just 'said'. So dream on Charles the end is approaching.
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re: 337
They'd certainly have a tough task ahead of them!
re: 338
Are you really in a position to lecture about zen? It's a simple subject to blag, I could easily write a koan but that wouldn't mean that I was able to dissociate my way of thinking in the way that it teaches. You're a windbag Charles, and no amount of comparisons to zen will persuade us that you know what you're on about or that Brown is any good.
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On what evidence does Brown deliver the whole package?
A chimpanzee could deliver something in twenty years time; politicians are elected to deliver now, regardless of the pleadings of zen Buddhism.
If twenty years is the time frame, Brown has had eleven already. Eleven years of wasted public money on quangos and inquiries. Eleven years of non stop increases in taxation..are we to endure a further nine years of taxes rising for the sake of Brown's reputation? Eleven years of unbelievably benign global economic conditions of growth and low inflation during which time Brown still left us with the largest budget deficit since 1946.
He's like the fumbling incompetent inheritor of an aristocratic legacy who has flushed it all away at the gaming tables and is pleading for one more chance to prove he can win.
he's busted incompetent flush that no amount of tantric praying can assist. he deserves his place in history as the most hubristic busterer ever to hold office.
His legacy is protected; I came, I spent, I wasted, I lost; election after election.
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That would empty this blog pretty fast.
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343. power_to_the_ppl.
Do not seek the truth, only cease to cherish your opinions.
What ya think, worth a go ?
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@345
you would be first out too.
However zen is as unlikely as you keeping a promise to stay away or Gordon actually listening.
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Re #334 Pot_Kettle
Good analogy
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People are reading or looking up Zen for themselves. It's a useful change of focus and gets people doing something positive for a change. That is all that matters.
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Charles do you have any of your 'own' thoughts? Just for once say something without an appeal to some turgid prose from some faraway place. Go on, give it a go, you do have a brain, you can use it, so try it once in a while. I think you'll find interesting things'll start to happen. I won't tell you what they are, I'll let you find out for yourself: it'll be a revelation to you, believe me. Wow! just think, using your own brain after all these years? Surely worth a try?
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"no more tory boom and bust"
Was that a Zen thing, too?
May I assure you that no-one is looking up Zen. The received religion in this country is Anglican. It has many useful words to offer a man of such enormous hubris as Gordon Brown.
Perhaps we should all pray for his forgiveness.
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re: 346
Cherished or not, every examination and analysis of the facts leads to contempt for Labour.
re: 349
Charles I'll say it again: you are not the not the only one who has read about zen you know. You sound like a sixth former who is convinced he is delivering great wisdom to the plebs.
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Re everyone responding to Charles_E_Hardwidge
Mea culpa too, but we're all just encouraging him to paste more from his Boys' Book of Intellectual Wisdom and deflect our thoughts away from the real world he can no longer bear to discuss,
Not much meat on the BBC Politics website bones today, but there's plenty there in the media. The 2 articles I quote below from today's Times are at least worth a glance with a few quotable quotes.
Buckley & Elliott's Weakened Gordon Brown gives in to union demands
Rees-Mogg's Labour should choose Hillary, not Obama
Anyone think that the Harperson would do a better job than Gordon? She does have 21st place in the 22 person Portillo squad, so she's fairly likely to survive the election. Is there anything else to be said in her favour?
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Charles
A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring.
Alexander Pope
You need to take Mr Pope's advice
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@353
After Glasgow East I am not sure the Harperson is far enough above the water line. To continue the Titanic musings the water eventually engulfed the whole ship.
I agree she will be stood on the Stern with de Caprio but even he drowned. I am not sure she has as much personal bouyancy as the superb Ms Winslett
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Re my own #353
After re-reading the 1st article I quoted, I'd have thought that almost anyone but Brown and the Harperson would have been more suitable recipients of their largesse in the quest to rediscover the Labour Party and make at least some of the electorate happy again. Should John McDonnell have another go?
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The essence of Zen:
Achieving enlightenment by seeing ones own mind without the intervention of intellect.
Attempting to understand life without logical thought
To free the mind from words and the constriction of logic.
Well it looks like Grand Master Brown has the hang of it.
Charles, youre almost there.
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I am still unable to read the comments on this newslog, but I imagine, as before, many of them follow the pack instinct and are baying for Gordon Brown's blood. It is all opinion and the negativity which has dogged the PM for the past nine months is still snowballing. Well, this is just opinion. And this is my opinion. PM Gordon Brown has always struck me as a principled man and therefore better qualified to lead the country than two of his higher profiled predecessors, Blair and Thatcher. The Labour Party should have elbowed Blair out after the David Kelly debacle. In the Blair years it seemed me it was assumed we all ran cars, we all used computers and we all earned about £350 a week. What a difference we have now where the huge disparities in incomes and lifestyles are acknowledged and there seems to be a serious effort to do something about it. I'm not saying a different government would not make the same efforts and work towards a fairer distribution of wealth, but I for one was relieved and continue to be relieved when Blair was replaced by Brown. I think it is immaterial whether Labour lose the next election, a change of government is always good in a democracy. But I do think Labour would be insane to ditch Gordon Brown at this stage. If the modern media had been around, Clement Attlee would never have stood a chance and many of Labour's 20th century achievements may never have come about. Do we prefer a media-orientated presidential-style PM who was out of touch with reality? Is not a serious and principled man who gets on with the job a vast improvement? Remember I can't read any of your replies, so it will be impossible to change my opinions on this blog!
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Perhaps, but I'm doing Zen. It's an integral part of my life. You're just whining. And that's the difference between people who succeed and people who don't. If anyone wanted a more succinct comment on British politics today it would be harder to find one.
As I commented earlier, the focus is competition and personalities but that's a crock. If I spent my life worrying about someone doing better or having someone look over my shoulder, I'd get nothing done. So, I do what I do. Learn to live with it.
There's plenty of stuff to achieve in life and places to go. Sure, some of that fortune cookie stuff may sound trite but I know the value of it. It's about having a life instead of spinning in decreasing circles in blog comments nobody gives a shit about.
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"#221 - pat the cat
I don't think they mean 14 billion each Pat"
Shame that.... Because 14 billion is the MINIMUM that it would cost to get me to vote labour at the moment.
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This is hardly sagacious political commentary, but there's a certain kind of ruthlessness to Harridan Harmonster that reminds me more of Harry Potter's Dolores Umbridge than it does of Maggie Thatcher. I reckon if Harridan goes for the top job she'll face a lot of resistance from within and without the party, (I'd say the Times article underestimates just how much), and the best possible outcome for Labour in that situation is a substantial loss at the General Election. Their only hope is to get rid of Brown and install Miliband quick sharpish like to allow him time to salvage (ie. create) a 'vision'. I don't think anyone's ready for Harridan as PM, that really would be too much.
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re: 359
Why Charles, it seems you're getting angry, I guess you don't have that every-minute zen. Perhaps you should search a little harder for that inner peace ;)
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Charles, sorry but you are not living Zen, if you were you could not credence the evil manifest at the heart of those that infiltrated and corrupted labour core beliefs to create an evil child of New Labour. You claim they are doing a good job.
You provide NO evidence for doing so and then blithely and hypocritically claim some zen reason for your personal cop-out.
You are a fraudulent fool rather than a student of Zen.
Labour are not, by any measure, doing a "good job" unless you believe that breaking up the UK and handing over the broken pieces to a foreign entity is a good thing.
I challenge you to furnish this forum with proof (not labour's flawed and fraudulent statistics) but real proof that labour are, even on balance, doing a good job! Not more misinterpreted Zen nonsense. REAL PROOF!
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Seems I spoke a little hastily about the BBC Politics website, Does anyone NOT go along with Brown should quit, says Labour MP just posted?
Would anyone be surprised that Prentice will be defending a majority of 5.3% At Pendle. A 2.7% swing will defeat him, so I'd say he is a dead man walking. I bet some of his peer group will listen, while the Harperson says Brown is the "solution" not the "problem". Echoing Ms Rice-Davies yet again she would, wouldn't she with a 23.3% swing needed to defeat her in the dreaming spires of Camberwell & Peckham?
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#299 - T A Griffin (TAG)
Very simple answer - when I am free to say what I like, I will put my name to it. All the time I am being moderated, I will not.
#300 - Roll_On_2010
Thanks for the back pat but credit where it's due, Brownedov did all the hard work. Thanks to him.
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Re #355 Pot_Kettle
LOL
But as I pointed out in my #292 she stands a pretty good chance of being the Captain of the Titanic lifeboat the PLP may fit in to after the next election.
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Naughty naughty, now pack it in Charles. There's no need to be so harsh on yourself. I think the time's come for a little deliberation, something like this, now repeat after me: I will not use naughty words on the blog, let's try again, I will not use naughty words on the blog. Now repeat that to yourself 200, no make it 2000 times , starting now, and I think you'll find it'll do the job. You will find peace, believe me Charles, you really will.
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353. Brownedov
Oh alright, just having a bit of fun. Im new her and the ZEN thing had me ROFL.
On the Harperson issue.
While I agree with power2 on 361. I have to say she can handled Hague better than Brown did. Not hard mind.
Describing what will happen if she becomes Prime Minister, Harmperson said that ‘There aren’t enough airports in the country for all the men who would want to flee the country’
Politics needs more humour, like Hagues speach on Mr President Blair it was worth my billion.
Any how Ive already got a chunnel ticket booked.
See you all in France
Here she is in action.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5IRQJjbQtRk
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#355 Pot_Kettle
No analogy with the Titanic would be complete, without including the fact that many men from 1st Class got into the lifeboats, leaving women and children in steerage to drown.
One of these was Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon (!) of Maryculter (played by Martin Jarvis in the film).
Easy to write that part into your story!
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On Sunday, former deputy prime minister John Prescott demanded an end to "pointless" manoeuvring against Mr Brown - and insisted no other minister was "anywhere near" capable of taking over at Number 10.
And there-in lies the problem. There is no one near capable in the whole Labour party. The former deputy leader said it.
This being the case the whole party should resign thier seats and every Labour constituaency party should put forward a completely different list of candidates for their seats.
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Re #368 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
Point taken - sometimes it's irrestistable.
Re #369 oldnat
Such little snippets brighten my day.
Re The latest BBC article, whatever the Harperson may say, the sting is in the tail where they quote Kenny of the GMB saying "The MPs have got to make a strong decision as to whether they want to go into an election with Gordon Brown or have a [leadership] contest".
If their paymasters don't get their way, expect a new bill on party funding to be rushed through in the autumn.
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@366
To keep the analogy going, she is going to have to steer her lifeboat away from the sinking ship lest she gets dragged under.
Does this mean a dramatic turn back to the left for the PLP, I am not sure what her true politacal navigation is.
@368
Carrots you wont need that chunnel ticket if Mz Harmful does become leader it will be of a decimated party (thats divided by ten for you red flag wavers) I dont think the queen will ask here to form a government with just 35 MP's
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@ 370
"On Sunday, former deputy prime minister John Prescott demanded an end to "pointless" manoeuvring against Mr Brown - and insisted no other minister was "anywhere near" capable of taking over at Number 10."
I agree, he is basically admitting that there is no one in the labour government who is capable, dependable or suitable for high office then.
Please Nick, if you get to interview Prescott ever again, please ask him, "Given that you stated that no labour minister is anywhere near as good as the distaster that is Gordon Brown (and by disaster I mean taking an eleven point lead and turning into a twenty two point deficit in about 8 months), why should ANYONE ever vote labour again? You are telling the British Public that your government is utterly incompetent aren't you?"
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Ancient Chinese proverb says:
'He who screws others eventually gets screwed himself'
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To go or not to go - that is the question.
...or is it?
If Gordon goes - his replacement will still not work in the public interest.
If Labour loose the next election - we still won't have a party that works for the electorate - rather than conning them for as long as they can get away with it.
MP's expenses? - don't make me laugh. These should be the lowest paid people in the country, because they seem to have the least intelligence out of the population - hand picked for being the thickest.
No - I'm afraid until one of these leeches breaks rank and start questioning our political system - there will be no change.
Remember the word - because you're going to see a lot more of it.
"Time for a change"
"Changing Britain for the better"
"Any spare change?"
The pieces may change, but the game is still the same old one that benefits the minority who make the rules and works against the populous.
Technocracy, Meritocracy, social credits - why aren't our politicians thinking out of the box and adapting the best of the other forms of government and improving our system.
......because they're thick - that's why.
Don't be fooled with a few letters after their names - mostly this is to do with self promotion (Rt Hon) - and lets face it, Ray Lewis and Geoffery Archer both manged to fake theirs - what's the betting they're all fakes?
Who's fault is this? YOURS - because your apathy allows them to get away with it. I'm sure many of you will feel great about giving Gordon (or labour) a bloody nose at the next election - however the jokes on you as they won't care - they'll be back in once we realise the other lot are no better.
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#358 newtactic, you state that Gordon Brown is a principled man yet you seem to suggest that he was a senior member of an unprincipled government that didn't elbow out Tony Blair over a particularly unprincipled event (the Kelly affair).
I think this therefore indicates that Gordon Brown is not quite as principled as you suggest - and you yourself have successfully created the argument.
As for him continuing as Prime Minister, well, according to your measurement of who would be best, perhaps he shouldn't after what what you have established.
Will he lead Labour to a General Election win? Well, based upon recent results, that looks unlikely.
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Re #372 Pot_Kettle
Sorry to be picky but unless my 3rd form Latin is even rustier than I thought, when an army unit was "decimated" one soldier in ten was killed. Some "swot" can doubtless supply us with the correct term for nine out ten being done away with.
We may need it, as your prediction of 35 could well come to pass the way they're going about saving themselves.
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"Who's fault is this? YOURS - because your apathy allows them to get away with it. I'm sure many of you will feel great about giving Gordon (or labour) a bloody nose at the next election - however the jokes on you as they won't care - they'll be back in once we realise the other lot are no better."
Absolutely agree. That is why it is time to vote for a local independent candidate next time.
The system can be changed. All it will take is for the dissilusioned and dissapointed to USE their vote wisely and stop perpetrating the biggest political fraud in history. That we have a choice between what labour would do and what the tories would do. Or the liberals for that matter.
They will all take us to hell eventually, but by slightly different routes.
IF the clear and massive majority who are sick to death of labour and tory combined, decided to END the useless party politics, they could and very very easily.
Just vote in your millions for local independents at the general election. Vote for a candidate that actually wants to represent YOU in Parliament, not the other way round.
When the election returns only 40 or so labour and tory MP's, and the rest are independent minded people who can actually think for themselves, and are united in a desire to improve Britain for the British, rather than deliver a bunch of broken regions to the EU to rule over.
THEN there will be real change we can believe in.
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@377
You maybe right, I may well be mistaken in thinking its a division by ten. division by ten will be much more fun though.
My MP Follet will be an early casualty anyway with a majority of only 7.49% on a 63.02% turn out. I'm already taosting h her demise.
I'm Backing Lister her website says. Yep that will be backing one of the worst performing hospitals in the country then with one of the highest levels of MRSA and C-Dif, but it looks good in comparison to one of the few hospitals that is worse the nearby QE2.
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Re #375 TheresOnly1Soupey
I fully agree that the system should change, but it just won't happen if, as seems probable, the Tories replace NuLabour with a big majority. How can you convince Cameron it would be in his own best interest to make the system fairer? Even if you can, can you convince his own back-benchers?
Right now, it's only the crew of the RMS Titanic who could do it, to save some of their skins. "Duff" Gordon won't be the man to say "sorry" and change it and neither will the Harperson.
Are they really so washed out after their 11-year "high" that they have nobody with any positive vision left to steer their otherwise doomed vessel?
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Usage Note: Decimate originally referred to the killing of every tenth person, a punishment used in the Roman army for mutinous legions. Today this meaning is commonly extended to include the killing of any large proportion of a group. Sixty-six percent of the Usage Panel accepts this extension in the sentence The Jewish population of Germany was decimated by the war, even though it is common knowledge that the number of Jews killed was much greater than a tenth of the original population. However, when the meaning is further extended to include large-scale destruction other than killing, as in The supply of fresh produce was decimated by the nuclear accident at Chernobyl, only 26 percent of the Panel accepts the usage.
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#377 Brownedov, in ancient Rome it did indeed mean to kill one in ten of a group of soldiers, although it was specifically for mutiny.
It can, however, according to the OED be simply used to suggest a drastic reduction in size.
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#367 doctor-gloom, I could tell that someone would end up losing their temper over this Zen thing.
How about some Deng Xiaoping.... 'It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice'.
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Some things do not change. From Harold Wilson's HMS Tiger and UDI fiasco, through devaluation and 'the pound in your pocket', to Callaghan's 'winter of discontent', to Kinnock's Sheffield triumphalism, to half-cocked unfinished devolution projects, to war based on dodgy intelligence and so on ad infinitem.
One common thread runs through Labour old and new and it has nothing to do with ideology or political philosophy. Put simply, they could not run a p**s up in a brewery on a wet Thursday afternoon if their lives depended on it. That's why, one way or another, they have to go.
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Staying with the Titanic for a little while longer
The ship received information earlier regarding the presence of ice floes in the vicinity, yet continued at full speed towards tragedy
Never mind cos Captain Browns goin down.
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Re #378 purpleDogzzz
I hear you cry, and agree it would work if people listened, but It's sad but true that they won't in enough numbers to succeed.
The only hope is for a party pledged to electoral reform like the LibDems to have enough seats to make a deal worthwhile to one of the "big" parties. As the Tories look to get bigger while NuLabour may be microscopic I know which one is likely to feel that electoral reform (and the completion of devolution that would have to go with) might not be such a bad idea after all.
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I wish that there was some reference on these sites to plagiarism. Should we acknowledge the source of the comments we make.
If we use somebody as the source of a point for discussion then surely there should be some sort of cross referencing to the originator.
I have made reference to the fact that labour lost in Glasgow East by 365 votes, a vote for every day of a year which Gordon is our PM.
I have made reference to the Titanic and sinking ships.
Now his policies are going up in flames like the pier at Weston-Super-Mare.
Finally, if we are not to use our real names because of fear from the moderators #365 then may I humbly suggest that you go and Google the name of my son, Ben who has had a high court injunction taken out against him by the wonderful MoD and wonder why freedom of speech must be preserved at all cost.
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Re #381 Pot_Kettle,
& #382 extremesense
OK folks, I did apologise for being picky in my #377. Having now looked it up in my old OED I was surprised to see the extended usage dates back to 1663. Using it to mean 90% reduction is pushing it, though.
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Re #384 threnodio
Re activities in breweries, Could "Duff" Gordon share his drinking preferences with Homer Simpson? I think we should be told.
Re #385 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
I do like oldnat's Duff Gordon to go with your Scott from a previous thread. Maybe that's the essence of his split personality?
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#384
can I add to that list of cock ups by Labour administrations the fact that it appears that the civil service has been truend into an institution where no one is ever at fault.
How exactly did the man responsible for all the loss of 25m documents at HMRC end up with a bonus added to his pension?
Labour are not only bribing the shirkers they are bribing every other sector of government woth index linked copper bottemd pensiosn whethter they do a good job or not. As long as you promise not to tell tales on NewLabour we'll look after you.
Look what happens if you talk out of school...Dr David Kelly?
We have been turned into something no better than a central American republic run by tin pot dictators.
We are the victims of institutionalised corruption.
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Hmm, if Labour are pretty much wiped out, which is highly likely judging from the public mood and their enormous debts, do you think that it's feasible for the Lib Dems to eventually become the main opposition party? They have no chance of getting into power in the near future so if they have any sense they should use the period of Nu-Labour's decline to flesh out some realistic policies that people will vote for rather than idealistic ones that won't work in practise. Who knows, there's a chance (albeit small) that they may be in power after two Tory terms, if they take advantage of the inevitable backlash against the Tories. G*d help us if that's the case, they'll inevitably shift to the right to keep Middle England happy and it'll be Nu-Labour all over again.
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@388
Oh come on, I went to the Gordon Brown school of statistics If I want to say decimated means a 90% reduction I should be allowed to. Its close enough ;-)
So we need a new term.
Decimated doesnt go far enough
Decapitated only cuts off the head.
debacle is close but is a description of the outcome
debacle - a sound defeat
thrashing, trouncing, walloping, drubbing, slaughter, whipping
defeat, licking - an unsuccessful ending to a struggle or contest;
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#387 - T A Griffin (TAG)
'Finally, if we are not to use our real names because of fear from the moderators #365'
You see you are jumping to conclusions again. I didn't say anything about a 'fear' of moderators.
I understand why the BBC feels the need to have moderation although I personally dislike it. What I say is that the ability to remove or not publish a post which may be part of a series during an exchange of views can distort the opinions being expressed.
So I repeat, I will gladly give my name to anything which is not edited. I am not afraid of it and I am not ashamed of my views. I am vigorous in my support of free expression and I resent the inference that my reticence is born of fear.
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#389 - Brownedov
Have to think about that one. I do know that the thought of Harry Harperson as PM would be enough to drive anyone down 'The Visually Challenged Beggar' for a skinful of Johnnie Walker Label of Colour.
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#389 Brownedov
Aberdonians believed that the only way for Duff Gordon to have got into the lifeboat was for him to have dressed as a woman.
The story was so strong in the town, and he was so humiliated that Duff Gordon never went out in daylight again.
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Seeing as Gordon Brown's administration is as successful as John Major's second term, perhaps he could take a leaf out of John Major's book and launch some similar initiatives.
May I suggest first a 'Slackers Charter' for the long term idle. This would involve testing at regular opportunities for adherence to Zen Buddhist principles of calm and idleness. There would be generous payments for those deemed to be most idle.
The Media would give out annual awards for the 'Ten most idle in the UK' supported by 'Most idle person regionally' awards.
Prizes would range from the opportunity to eat the whole country's leftovers to a chance to mark the SATs tests for a day with Ed Balls and Yvonne Cooper.
Runners up would be given the opportunity to catch a superbug free on the NHS.
When is this dystopia going to come to an end and this man going to get a proper mandate from the people or resign?
Finally for all those apologist for Gordon Brown who thinks all we do is make it personal with the attacks on him. HE made it personal because HE says HE is the only man for the job. He has only himself to blame.
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@391
At a point in our Dim and Distant past the Liberals have formed governments.
I think in a post (Scottish and Welsh)independance England the Liberals could easily drum up enough support to form the opposition and ultimately the government.
In the future history will refer to the period 1997-2010 the "dead cat bounce time" of the Labour Party.
And this period 2008-2010 is just the eye popping thrashing around of the deceased moggie.
My feline friend would rather I refered to it as a dead dog bounce as she gets touchy when thinking of her own mortality.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re #391 power_to_the_ppl
That's what I fear Clegg may be hoping for. The old Liberals actually BELIEVE in electoral reform as the starting point for fairness - a view I share.
So long as the current Westminster system stays the trend of "strong" governments which outlast their ability to listen is bound to continue.
The Tories in Scotland have seen by experience under the shrewd leadership of Goldie that even a minor party can get things it really wants implemented in a democratic environment. Any fair observer would have to admit that the SNP's minority goverment is proving quite popular, even if Glasgow East doesn't mean that all but one Labour MP in Scotland will lose next tine.
As I've said before, the only golden lining after an outright Tory victory may be that Cameron will still have to make some deals with Scotland and Wales if he's to save the union. If that ends up with Westminster becoming the English Parliament again using the old system then electoral reform is a long way off for England.
For that reason, even though I despise NuLabour, I would contemplate supporting a Labour / LibDem pact for a one-off general election on electoral reform.
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"Spinelessness vies with nihilistic despair"
"middle managerailism competes with fear of total implosion"
Comments from a demented tory blogger or the Daily Disgusted?
No. Comments from Polly Toynbee that cheerleader of all things NEwLabour and socialist Scandinavians in the uardian this weekend.
Even NewLabours own supporters are tearing themselves to pieces about their options; get rid of Gordon and what are the policies of the alternatives?
My suggestion remains; The Slackers's Charter. People will get the message straight away.
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Re #392 Pot_Kettle
Fair enough. The Blair I actually respect would be sad to see how much both Animal Farm and 1984 have proved to be "prequels" to history rather than warnings wisely acted upon.
newspeak lives.
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Re #394 threnodio
Me too, I'm starting to wonder if Homer Simpson would be more electable than "Duff" Gordon.
Must take a Break!
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Beachwear - I think it will be Brown's terrible jacket and his wife's black dress and pink cardie, on the hottest day of the year, that will be the final nail in GB's metophysical coffin.
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Re #395 oldnat
"Duff Gordon never went out in daylight again."
We'll have to wait and see post Southwold. Maybe he'll have some cross-party discussions with Michael Howard.
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A would-be "News of the World" reporter whispered in my ear that GB writes blogs under the name Jimbrandt.
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re: 396
"Prizes would range from the opportunity to eat the whole country's leftovers to a chance to mark the SATs tests for a day with Ed Balls and Yvonne Cooper.
Runners up would be given the opportunity to catch a superbug free on the NHS."
Wow! Now that's my kind of Britain!!
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re: 399
"For that reason, even though I despise NuLabour, I would contemplate supporting a Labour / LibDem pact for a one-off general election on electoral reform."
Yeah I'd go along with that. Better be careful though, no doubt Nu Labour would still find a way to argue that it was an endorsement of the 'brilliance' of their 'long-term' 'vision'!
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#402 - Brownedov
BBC News - Wednesday, 18 June, 2003
"Under discussion was America's relations with other countries post-September 11, the country's cultural legacy and what the future holds for the world's only superpower.
The programme also revealed that News Online readers voted Homer Simpson as the Greatest American in history."
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Just discovered that Harridan was found guilty of contempt of court: Home Office v. Harman [1983] 1 A.C. 280, 308
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410. power_to_the_ppl wrote:
In 1990 Harman co-authored a report entitled "The Family Way". It criticised the family unit and mothers who stay at home. In particular it questioned whether men were an asset to families at all and whether "the presence of fathers in families is necessarily a means to social harmony and cohesion
Nice
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#393
most sincere apologies for my comments and I delete any reference to fear, and now that you have explained your position I too may change my name, my only problem is being new to this what do we call our substitute names? Can anybody help me out. I used to call myself griff22, how about that?
If you were to go to the site for my local newspaper the Express and Echo then you may find that I used to contribute many letters to the Editor, some of which were quoted.
Funnily enough I find this a much better medium. Seriously able to bounce ideas off contribtors, Brown must go, doh!
By the way why has he not broken into his holiday to go the Weston-Super-Mare to express his regrets and to say that it will be rebuilt. Or should we leave that to Hadrian Harman to do!
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"396. At 3:11pm on 28 Jul 2008, RobinJD wrote:
Seeing as Gordon Brown's administration is as successful as John Major's second term, perhaps he could take a leaf out of John Major's book and launch some similar initiatives. "
I disagree, John Major's second term left a very successful economy for Labour to pretend that they had created it. Whenever Gordon Brown talked of growth it was in terms of quarters of consecutive growth, so that it would hide the fact that growth started in the first quarter of 1993 over four years before John Major was kicked out of office. Brown also continued Conservative spending plans for the first 2 years so as to not mess everything up straight away.
Brown is even worse than John Major.
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#405
go back to the prior posts and read jimbrandts repeated defence of the pensions wreckage and then the astonishing amount of detail he gives about longevity, percentage changes, compounding effects and I suspect you will come to the same conclusion as I have; you are talking to none other than British prime minister Gordon Brown.
The yes, but no habit he has when speaking is also repeated in many of his blog entries.
The question is; will he continue under this pseudonym now he's been rumbled?
The vigorous defence of increased taxation, irritation with our complaints about quango proliferation (a classic Brown tool), his defence of the pension fiasco in mimute detail; it's all too revealing.
Good fact finding; he was always going to be on here somewhere 'explaining' his loopy policies.
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Looking at one headline this week it was pretty clear the rounded picture was being spiked in favour of the media winding itself up into a frenzy, just as some people in here tend to ignore the more positive achievements and consensus building. That's not politics, it's hysteria. And it's one reason why the Washington Post pretty much nuked its comments section.
It's not politically correct but the usual treatment for hysterics is a sharp slap across the face. It arrests peoples attention and reminds them that actions have consequences. I'm not suggesting the government should pick on a big company or media interest for a hard lesson in real politics but now would be timely. As usual, the people demanding "new politics" can't leave the "old politics" alone.
George Carlin did a good sketch on politicians. He commented on the demands we place on them and pointed out they don't just arrive out of the sky. They're made up of people who go to the same schools, walk the same streets, and do the same things we do. If you want better politicans, simply, you have to be better people yourself. It's a lesson Robs Pierre made the mistake of not learning.
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407. At 3:55pm on 28 Jul 2008, power_to_the_ppl wrote:
re: 399
"For that reason, even though I despise NuLabour, I would contemplate supporting a Labour / LibDem pact for a one-off general election on electoral reform."
Yeah I'd go along with that. Better be careful though, no doubt Nu Labour would still find a way to argue that it was an endorsement of the 'brilliance' of their 'long-term' 'vision'!
Labour-Lib Dem pact? We had that in Scotland and the Lib Dems caused more problems with their policies than anything else.
Who would lead them? Nick Clegg could never hold a position in a cabinet, the man cannot keep his temper in public, not a characteristic you want in someone representing his country.
It's the same old story, a change of Government is required. Name someone to replace Brown - not Jack Straw and certainly not Milliband. Youth worked for Blair, but I doubt if it will work for anyone else.
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#405 Robin JD
I assumed that you were all MPs. Glad to have joined you.
Yours ever,
John Mason
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To T A Griffin,
I haven't commented on here for a while. In fact, bizarrely, the last time I commented on these blogs I was quite rude to you. I did subsequently try to post another comment that apologised for my rudeness, but a technical issue meant it never posted successfully. I hope you'll take me at my word on that one.
Anyway, more relevantly, I did google your son, Ben Griffin, and read the articles. What a brave and principled man, and what a loss to our armed forces! I wish him every success in life outside the army. Will he go into politics?
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#412 - T A Griffin (TAG)
Graciously expressed and gratefully accepted.
Go to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/default.stm, log in using your existing ID, click 'Retrieve my details', enter your password and edit your profile on the following page.
I think you are being optimistic about the pier unless it is listed. For object lessons, Google West Pier+Brighton and Shanklin Pier for horror stories.
As regards your son, I have the highest respect for people who speak out in the face of wrongdoing but there are complex issues relating to forces personnel in general and special forces in particular abou which I am not qualified to comment.
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#413 - purpleDogzzz
And he went to the country for a mandate to push through Maastricht. No sign of Brown doing that for Lisbon needless to say.
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re: 415
Yes of course Charlie boy, it's all the media's fault. And you say:
"They're made up of people who go to the same schools, walk the same streets, and do the same things we do."
Well yes, I suppose, but we don't all start wars, or pour billions down the drain to con the electorate for a few more weeks whilst making things much worse, we don't all waste thousands of pounds of taxpayers money trying to hide what we're doing with said taxpayers money, we don't all have sex with our secretaries in the office (with the door open no less) or eat everything on the menu at the local Chinese and charge it to the taxpayer, we don't all [insert Labour mistake/crime here] etc etc etc
You are being unduly lenient and that's putting it mildly. This government needs to learn to take responsibility for its actions. 'Oh what a tangled web we weave / When first we practice to deceive.' That particular Scot(t) had some sense.
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re: 416
I always thought Chris Huhne was the better choice myself, but only just. It does seem to be true that people with charisma don't join the Lib Dems.
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Charles, please -
Robespierre had the guillotine in his arsenal of political persuasion. I believe imminent decapitation focuses the mind wonderfully. At least the mighty leader has gone that far - yet.
'And on the 43rd day, they cut yer bl**dy 'ed orf!'
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Re #407 power_to_the_ppl
& #408 threnodio
Fair comments.
Re #410 power_to_the_ppl
And you were surprised?
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To #418/9
Many thanks for your comments.
You are of course quite right about Special Forces because they do sign contracts before entering the service.
This is the problem. If you sign the contract then you are bound by it. If you do not sign then you will not be able to join the service. So you sign.
However, if you are told to do something that really is unaccpetable should you remain silent. Does not the contract become unenforceable. Should you remain silent.
I even have problems with the result of the Max Mosely case. How much freedom of speech are we prepared to lose, under privacy 'laws'.
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re: 424
I was actually, at first anyway. Then I thought about and it all made sense. Wasn't surprised at all by that co-authored report Carrots mentions in post 411 though. It's just another bit of evidence that overwhelmingly suggests she's really Millie Tant, stepped straight out of the Viz.
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Re #416 Neil_Small147
But in Scotland the SP was set up from the outset with a reasonably fair electoral system. You may not think much of their record in coalition for eight years, but they helped to soften the impact of rabidly NuLabour policies to the extent of creating envy in England while helping develop the SP into something Scotland is inclined to trust much more than Westminster. That said, their not going into coalition with the SNP in 2007 was a big mistake they must still be regretting.
Had the SP been elected by the 1872 plurality system it would have been a mini-clone of Westminster with an even bigger NuLabour majority and as much use to Scotland as a chocolate teapot.
The 1st part of the quote you use was from my #399 and was made because I and a few more believe that a democratically elected Westminster would reduce the level of confrontational politics and put a brake on the ability of leaders like Thatcher and Bliar to have all their own way at all times until they become an embarrassment to their dwindling number of supporters.
Perhaps I'm a naif to believe we don't need a reincarnation of Mussolini to control us, but believe it I do.
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#425 - T A Griffin (TAG)
I am glad that you raise this because it brings us back to one of the big issues which is snapping at government's heels. I do not see any consistency between the right to privacy and freedom of expression. All I ask for is proportionality of response. On a day when terrorists have again attacked innocent civilians in Turkey, Iraq and India, I am sure nobody would argue against good security and due vigilance. However, the draconian security measures in place or proposed in the UK are wholly disproportionate. There have for many years been measures in place for sensitive matters to be heard in camera. There is absolutely no reason why a request for the use of surveillance cannot be authorised away from public view when necessary. But it follows logically that there is no reason why an application cannot be made in every case. We are told that there is regulation in place but this is not the same thing as judicial oversight. It removes a level of accountability and places powers which rightly belong in the hands of the judicial process into the hands of unaccountable civil servants.
Exactly the same arguement applies to 42 day detention. There may indeed be circumstances when this is appropriate but what is to stop the detainee from being brought before a magistrate in camera and an order obtained? The only plausable answer is that this degree of accountability is unacceptable to the authorities because it leaves insufficient flexibilty. Flexibilty for abuse, abuse which government tacitly condones.
In the case of surveillance, it might be possible to make this case if the powers were limited to the police and security services but they are not. Surveillance techniques are being routinely used by local authorities to track petty offences which have nothing to do with national security and little to do with public safety. Surveillance cameras we all have to live with. Tracking email and tapping phones is a gross violation of personal privacy except when serious offences are involved. In those cases, the authorities would have no problem obtaining a magistrate's warrant. Such cases would in any case fall within the remit of the police or security services, not local authorities.
The same principles apply to the apparent conflict between the public interest and privacy. It is in the public interest to unmask people who are committing offences or abusing their position. There is no case to be made that the private sexual conduct of individuals has any public interest element beyond pandering to the purile and gratuitous curiosity of the gutter press readership uless those activities are criminal in themselves.
There is a prevalent culture of information gathering about private individuals which has gone way beyond the need to know and government is among the worst offenders. The failure to put into place adequate safeguards and judicial oversight simply underlines a scant regard for individual rights and a cavalier attitude to very domcratic standards they claim to be protecting.
I learnt everything I know about freedom, democracy and the rule of law at the knee of Britannia and I am sickened by the way it is being betrayed.
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# 428. Erratum - line 3 should read 'inconsistency . . .'
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re: 428
An excellent summary, I don't think there's anything to be added to that.
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#360
Come on now Purple, you're just playing hard to get.
I would be willing to bet that for a mere ... oooh, lets say .. 12.5 billion pounds, in cash , you'd be willing to vote Labour ... I'd be willing to do it if they just promised to come up with the cash to rebuild the Grand Pier in Weston super Mare, my hometown ... but then I'm just cheap, and a sentimental old twit ....
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Re #428 threnodio
Extremely well said. It's taking the same view of the balance as you do plus a stubborn belief in democracy that makes me an old Liberal.
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Harriet Harperson is the usual name given to this female politician. I think Harriet Harmperson would be more apt after reading her Google entries.
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I'd do it for 10 billion, but not a penny under. Also included in the deal would be a contract stating:
I, Gordon Brown, leader/former leader [delete as appropriate] of the Labour Party, hereby relinquish ownership of that least-valued of my possessions, my soul, and do sign it over to power_to_the_ppl, to do with as he pleases for all eternity.
Signed: Gordon Brown
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re: 433
Aye. She is what some people would call 'a mentalist'.
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# 391 invites us to speculate on the political landscape in England post the 2010 General Election and the Scottish independence referendum.
I would imagine that the immediate result would be an overwhelming number of Tory MP's at Westminster, with the Lib-Dems as the next largest group, with Labour trailing a poor third.
Over time, I would hope that a diverse selection of Greens, English Democrats and genuine independents would get elected to the English Parliament.
I think that the English democracy would be much healthier if such a diverse Parliamentary mix came to be.
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#428 threnodio
Well and forcefully argued.
Set me wondering how the party I was once a member of in the 1990's could have become so scaringly totalitarian.
Probably because their intrinsic centralism was once balanced by their Socialism, which is based on regard for the Rights of Man.
Remove the Socialism, and you're left with central control of everything, and the pursuit of personal power.
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re: 436
A mix of smaller parties would be much better for everyone in the long-term yeah. The larger a political party gets, the more general it has to be in terms of its outlook because it has to pander to more people, and subsequently the more risk there is of (a) ideological divisions opening up, (b) self-defeating internal politics (ironically with the intention of career advancement) (c) less focus on the country as a whole as the party, now grown bloated has to be maintained in its current state, (d) ever-increasing bureaucracy as it becomes necessary to hide mistakes, and (e) outright corruption as MPs feel less exposed to scrutiny due to (d).
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#437 - oldnat
I think what saddens me most is that I am finding it increasingly difficult to defend something I used to value. So I find myself confronting our mutual friend on another blog, MA2, simply because his bigotry winds me up but not out of any deep felt conviction. Someone asked me recently whether I was ever homesick. The truth is that I miss the sea and lazy afternoons watching cricket with a glass of warm beer or going to the Proms but that is all sentimental claptrap. The core values have gone and we are the poorer for it.
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isn't it ironic that the people who will have finished off gb's career and stabbed him in the political heart are gb's beloved Glaswegians? His own people in his own backyard! What a verdict! But has he got the message? No! He says he is carrying on with the job! Ego and arrogance!
With regard to Scottish, English or even welsh independence. Well nobody wants it so we won't get it! What we do want as a nation is strong principled government!
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#439 threnodio
I think the only differences between us are caused by environment. You obviously never tried bathing in the North Sea off Aberdeen, and we played shinty instead of cricket, because you have to keep running about :)
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#440 I haven't read many of your posts, but I'm sure others have told you that "strong principled government" is the aim of totalitarians, and that exaggerated claims weaken any argument.
"nobody wants it" is transparently false, and no doubt means "Neither I, nor the 2 other people who speak to me, want it. I am the entire universe, and the rest of you don't actually exist!"
Silly boy.
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moderaters can you please tell me whats wrong with the word orgasmic. it only has sexual connotations if you want it too, perhaps to satisfy more sensitive people on here I should have said orgiastic there is nothing ofensive in either expression so please return my post to blog.
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re: 443
I'm quite curious as to what this missing post says! Can't you just asterisk it out to satisfy Aunty Beeb?
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# 440
Brown's predicament may be approximated thus:
Wrong man, wrong job, wrong time.
Wrong man because 'modern' politics at the highest levels requires the person to be a 'media personality'.
Wrong job - never give a micro-managing bean-counter the top job (with apologies to the few accountants who did make a success of it).
Wrong time - political 'Britain' has more-or-less run its course.
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Labour are down one point from three weeks ago, they're now on 27 percent according to the Populus poll. It's like they're doing the limbo, how looow can you gooo? I reckon it'll peak (or trough rather, now there's a pun) at around 23-24 percent if they start to bicker over leadership, but if all goes smoothly, and by that I mean no more disasters by the time of the Manchester conference, the power_to_the_ppl poll predicts a slight rise to 28-29 percent.
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I assume people know about this site but I'll post it anyway. It can come in handy for us politically-minded denizens of the BBC blogosphere.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/
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The last few comments have also surely raised the issue of terminology. Are the insurgents in Iraq really freedom fighters. Do people who will kill really want freedom from occupation.
Surely, for many the problem goes back to the imposition of nation states after WWI. This policy of borders and freedoms for minorities is surely a major contributor to the malais of the world.
Why is there a border between Englnd and Scotland? What is the point of it. England and Wales? Why and we can extend the same argument around the globe. There seriously should be no different countries.
Imagine the savings if there were no countries. No borders to violate, how much longer must there be this total insanity of different countries, as soon as you think about it the more insane it becomes.
One world, one people, one language, guess which one?
If you want to know how bad our involvement has become then go to the Channel 4 news at seven today with reference to our involvement in training various military groups, particularly in Kenya, be proud very proud because just imagine what training we are giving to the Iraqi army!
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Re #436 JohnConstable
If I'm reading you correctly, you're happy with the 1872 plurality voting system now used in Westminster elections and you're looking forward to a Cameron landslide but you'd prefer a bit more diversity in the opposition ranks.
You also seem to presume that both Scotland and Wales will just up sticks and leave the union, with Cameron making no meaningful attempt to save it.
As you talk of "the English Parliament", do you anticipate Northern Ireland being annexed by the Republic or do you have some other fate in mind for them?
What sort of timescale do you have in mind for these events to take place in? I would guess an absolute minimum of a decade but certainly it's going to take at least a complete electoral cycle. Unless Labour bring in some fundamental change PDQ, the next Parliament like the current one will have 529 MPs representing England and 117 MPs representing the Celtic and Gaelic fringes.
Are you suggesting Cameron will expel them, perhaps?
Do, please correct me if I've minunderstood.
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Re #437 oldnat
I've never thought of it quite that way, but now you express it so clearly it seems blindingly obvious.
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#448 - T A Griffin (TAG)
I am sure I don't have to remind you that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. T'was ever thus.
Sadly, like the tyrannies from which so many terrorists draw inspiration, they find soft targets particularly attractive and they don't come any softer than innocent civilians.
Perhaps, if they were prepared to engage with people instead of killing them, we might get somewhere. For now I am afraid we simply have to accept that no sooner does someone tear down a border but someone else puts up another one. Sad but true.
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Re #441 oldnat
Spartan.
Since I worked in the upper Arabian Gulf, with sea temps up to 40 in summer, I find the Med too chilly.
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Re #448 T A Griffin (TAG)
You should read up on the Syndicalists who fought on the loyalist side against Franco and his rebels in the Spanish Civil War.
They might have got somewhere had the Stalinists not put their foot down, and there a still a few traces left of them in "red" Andalusia.
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#448 TAG
If I remember correctly, you live in England.
Political discussion north of the border has been examining the question of political identity and political constructs for over a hundred years (though not in those terms), and which has frequently mystified many of you, who were British/English, and saw no conflict between the two.
Those in Scotland, Ireland or Wales who identify themselves primarily as "British" make a conscious political choice - something that the "British" in England have never had to do (and it must be disturbing when that choice has to be made).
Terms such as "nation", "state", "country", "nation state" are frequently used interchangeably, and that creates the terminological confusion that you identify.
As part of my 1st degree, I had to plough through all of Mazzini's interminable writings as he explored the concept of being "Italian". as he rejected ethnicity, language, religion etc as being definers of "Italian", he eventually concluded that the simple definition of being Italian was you felt yourself to be one. He also understood that you could also be Tuscan, Piedmontese, Sicilian etc, but being "Italian" superseded (not replaced) these identities.
We all have multiple identities. eg I am primarily a Scot, but also a citizen of the world (hence I support the UN), European (hence I support the EU), and within Scotland, I was brought up in the North-East, where I have linguistic links, but have lived most of my adult life in Ayrshire. Within Ayrshire, I identify myself as living in a particular valley, and in one of the small towns within it.
To reflect all of these identities, I need to have the concept of subsidiarity embedded within the EU treaties. I need the powers of appropriate political entities to represent my identities.
My town - the existing Community Council
The Valley - the Community Councils work together
Ayrshire - doesn't exist any more. The coalition of Tory Government and Labour Councillors destroyed it - and I want it back.
North-East Scotland - I haven't lived there for 40 years, so I have no right to say what the residents should have. - the link is purely emotional.
Scotland - our own Parliament again, thank god.
Europe - Eventually, I'd like it to have control of Defence and Foreign policy on my behalf (once it becomes more efficient and democratic).
The human race - I'd enhance the humanitarian and peace-keeping activities of the UN.
Other people will make different identity constructs, where large numbers agree that creates the political constructs to match identities.
The powers for each level of polity should be appropriate. Hence, the UK is simply an encumbrance to me. For those of you who are British, it may be useful - but that's your problem.
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#454 - oldnat
I totally agree with you and, notwithstanding that I am in voluntary exile, my construct is almost identical. However, I think there is another layer which we cannot afford to disregard and that is religion. For many, this is far more powerful than related geographical, political or ethic considerations and we ignore it at our peril.
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#455 threnodio
Thanks for reading it - I normally skip posts as long as the one I made!
I didn't mention religion because it's not one of my identities, but you're quite right. Outsiders shouldn't intervene to force solutions on others - they seldom understand the dynamics of other cultures. For example, many of the facile comments about a re-partition of Northern Ireland ignored the fact that in many areas the geographical split between the communities is horizontal, not vertical. In the 17th century settlement, the Scots Presbyterians seized the better drained uplands, forcing the native population into the swampy valleys (hence the derogatory term "bogtrotters").
Imperialist USA and peedie-imperialist UK still haven't learned that.
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Excellent article on what Balls has been up to:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/28/education.labour
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New type of contribution #1.
1.Surely one of the problems is migration and it is this which is causing serious conflict. It is this migration which can be avoided if there are no borders and no different countries, just freedom.
2.Humankind has always moved for so many reasons, climate, geography, economic you can come up with any number of reasons, but movement there has always been.
3.However, as soon as you begin to think about the problem then it becomes one of space. If I live on the last bit of habitable space on the planet how do I prevent somebody from wanting my bit of space. Do I have a right to that space, should I share it even if it will disadvantage me.
4.If I have a family should they be entitled to their space? of course! but if there is no space available to them then what should I do if they have no space. Should I use any available power to clear space for 'my family'.
5.Then of course how far does my family extend, mother, father, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunties, nephews, nieces, any of their proginy.
6.Surely, it can be seen that I have just thought about this for ten minutes at a time of the morning when most people are just waking up.
7.Now, the problem which I consider we all have, is that not enough time is given to thinking. Just thinking, and then somehow communicating those thoughts to a wider audience so that they can assist others in the process. Why do we have so little time to think, just think?
I hope nobody thinks that I am being awkward but I hope others may pick-up on the method of presentation of my arguments. If anybody wants to refer to any particular part then they can refer to point 1,2,3 on contribution 1, or alternatively posting #nnn, point 1, 2, 3 etc. A good idea or what!
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Labour's achievement with women and ethinic minorities is being unravelled by Boris Johnson. I'm no big fan of positive discrimination but how can the Tories claim to set a positive lead and leave no man behind when they pull stunts like that? Their relaunch is just warmed over Thatcherism.
I listened to an earlier presentation the Prime Minister gave on various issues. It's clear just from watching his body language that he had a grasp of the strategy and the multitude of issues facing people, and a desire to understand how they impacted them on a personal level. In comparison, why are the Tories so full of bragging and insincerity?
I've seen a lot of lies and negativity from the usual quarters but where are the concrete plans and enthusiasm from those who would be king? What job opportunities do they want to create versus cost cutting? What sort of society do they want to build versus self-interest? I see the Prime Minister developing solutions but why are the opposition trying to talk eveyone back into their caves?
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People think and feel too much. They get caught up in the detail and the moment, and layer thought on thought, and emotion on emotion. It creates a lot of clutter and baggage that just gets in the way. Your suggestion for improvement is welcome.
By grasping less we put less of ourselves in the way of success, are more relaxed, and happier. Indeed, one might positively beam radiance and coolness just like the Labour Party is doing. Oh, wait. Didn't some people criticise Labour for doing just that?
Nonetheless, better structure and less personalising makes comment more accessible and generates less noise. It's also mentally healthier and more enjoyable to read. If people can get this right, maybe, we can get other things right.
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