Tittle tattle?
Arise Sir Keith or will it be Lord Vaz or Governor of Bermuda?
What began as a barbed joke at the expense of the chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, Keith Vaz turned into a significant exchange at today's Prime Minister's Questions.
Just nine minutes before PMQs began the Telegraph dropped a cracking story about a letter sent by Labour's Chief Whip to Mr Vaz .
It was written the day after the knife edge vote on 42 days detention without charge which Gordon Brown only just won and, according to the Telegraph, read as follows:
"Dear Keith...Just a quick note to thank you for all your help during the period leading up to last Wednesday's vote. I wanted you to know how much I appreciated all your help."
"I trust that it will be appropriately rewarded!...With thanks and best wishes, Geoff."
David Cameron - who'd clearly been forewarned about the story - used it to demand to know what plain old Mr Vaz, for now at least, had been promised. Of course, we'll probably never know. What's more, if anything was promised or even hinted at it's much less likely to be delivered now.
I suspect that Geoff Hoon will say that he was teasing Mr Vaz after the jokes that had been circulating around the Commons about what had been promised.
What may prove more significant in the long term is the PM's repetition of his claim that "no deals" were done to secure victory. If, as they expect, Northern Irish MPs soon greet extra government investment or a concession on this or that government proposal it is a claim that will be scrutinised very hard.
Of course, deals are done all the time in Westminster in the search for coalitions needed to win tight votes (although they're usually implicit rather than explicit so as to be deniable.)
This begs the question - why when first asked about deals did Gordon Brown offer up yet another hostage to fortune rather than simply declaring that he'd done what was necessary to make the country safe whilst dismiss talk of deals as Westminster village tittle tattle?
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The nation has stopped listening to Brown and his ilk.
The Vaz letter just reinforces the duplicity of New Labour.
I wouldnt believe anything Brown said.
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I can't believe there is anyone in the country who doesn't believe that deals were done.
Gordon Brown just looks like he is telling lies.
Not that I agree with the 42 day policy, but for the sake of integrity he would have been better saying that "the government did what was necessary for the sake of the country".
Too many times we see Gordon trying to pull the wool over the publics eyes. He thinks he is very clever, but his web always untangles and he ends up with egg on his face.
Tony Blair used to skip over the sort of hurdle Gordon runs into face first.
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Perhaps what he really should have said was why dont you ask Mr Hoon.
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Of course deals are done.
What the PM was referring to was deals done in the form of bribes.
As for Cameron, this is distasteful to comment on private correspondance probably obtained by sinister or even illegal methods.
Who had what to gain by making sure this reached a newspaper, especially a Conservative leaning one?
And what motives lay behind the perpetrators actions?
Is this the behaviour of a would be PM and what signal does it send to the young?
As I see it this is behaviour unbecoming to a would be PM, what honour was ther in David Cameron's actions...None
Politics at it's lowest form.
What a level to sink to. I doubt if he can sink much lower than this episode.
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When it comes to what to believe, I think I'd believe someone like Diane Abbott on this kind of thing.
She's an insider with her ear to the ground who physically sees/hears it all happening, and, being a Labour MP who's spent years praising Brown at every opportunity, when she says that what was going on behind the scenes was shameful I'd tend to believe her.
If she thought the deals were truly happening and were very very bad/nasty, then my guess is that the real truth of what was going on must have been much much worse.
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I can just imagine wee Gordie Broons thought process when Dave asked him to confirm no deals were done.
"Oh Blimey what does he know that I don't"
"Yes we have no bananas"
Then the letter is shown that some deal was done.
"Oh no I've been rumbled........again!"
"We were just thanking him for doing the right thing" "taking a deal and voting with us" Phew dodged that one maybe no one will notice what a bungling buffoon i really am. I wonder if i left now i could get Wendy's job in Holyrood.
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Brown is lying, simple as. He can't possibly have not known about this. Will there be repercussions? Of course not. Well, not for the MPs anyway. Just like in 'The Thick Of It' re: the housing scandal--- the government announce there's going to be an 'inquiry' and all the MPs cheer. And what's more irritating than anything is that Brown isn't even lying for a worthwhile cause. He forced the 42 days legislation through purely to make himself look tough. Maybe that's why he always accuses Cameron of being soft on terror--- psychological overcompensation. It is Brown who is soft, and he's destroying our country for the sake of his reputation. He lost the plot a long time ago and now both his reputation, the Labour party, our civil liberties and the country at large are in tatters. Someone ought to do the decent thing and oust him along with his ragtag band of useless buffoons.
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No deals were done, just like he never intended to call an election last Summer.
This man is finished. It gets worse every week.
Fun for us though.
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So Nick... David Davis WAS right to take the stand he did... Are you going to say sorry?
David’s website is - daviddavisforfreedom .com
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The past 12 months have provided a torrent of evidence that Gordon Brown is both dishonest and cowardly. This story merely adds itself to an ever lengthening list.
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Not so much the 42 day issue (though it will take 42 days to die down) another example of the Government being careless with the data.....
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Oh dear, here we go again.
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Nick,
No deals done!!! Another what I call “rye” (Rollup Your Eyes) moment from Brown. As you commented today, why can’t he just be open and say “I did what was necessary for the security of the country”. His instinct seems to be, deny in the face of the facts, using some legalistic twist in the language to reject accusations of lying. It does not wash anymore
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I agree with you, Nick.
It's almost like Brown wants to be seen as above normal politics and, because people realise that obviously he isn't, he comes across as shifty and with something to hide. Or, as Cameron has it, he is taking the public as fools. Same with the election that never was and many other issues.
The public realise that something is wrong when he says these things and do not therefore wholly trust him.
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"knife edge vote" Nick, surely?
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d
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I am sure the repremand to Buff will not be "dont make promises" it will be "dont put your promises in writing".
The government have continually lowered the level of 'proof' required against defendants in criminal trials. It is time the level of proof required against politicians followed suit.
Lack of evidence clearly does not ensure innocence.
When ministers fail to respond to interview requests maybe they should be reminded of the warning "should you fail to mention now something that you later rely on..."
And what about their previous records -- Blunket keeps popping up, his dishonesty isn't going to be forgotten is it?
And integrity relating to expenses? as is continually pointed out, 'poor people' go to prison for lesser things.
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Trudy Victoria
'What a level to sink to. I doubt if he can sink much lower than this episode.'
I think it is hilarious that you say this about the person who brings the disreputable deed to the attention of the public, rather than the person who actually committed the deed!
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What a non-story.. deals are always done in politics its how the world works
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firstly, when one reads the letter, it does come across as a jest; particuarly the inclusion of the exclamation mark - does anybody disagree? also, if Vaz was going to receive a knighthood or what have you in return for his support, would Geoff Hoon really have written it down? coming back to the bribes point, if Brown had to take such measures, then it was only due to the playing politics of the opposition, who were desperate to weaken Brown further. how many conservative MPs voted along with the party line? how many of them voted with the 28 days? nearly all.
secondly, #4 was spot on. disgraceful to see the leader of the opposition brandishing a document which undoubtedly was illegally gained.
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@#4
Trudy i love your indignation.
My kids exhibit similar reactions when caught doing what they shouldnt have.
If no deal had been done then no letter could have been written.
as for your interpretation of the incumbant PM in your first paragraph, well it made my cat laugh
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According to the BBC's own news archive, back in 2002:
"The Commons standards and privileges committee has found Mr Vaz committed serious breaches of the MPs' code of conduct and showed contempt for the House of Commons."
just do a search on the bbc or google for his name and you'll find everything you need to know; then make up your own mind about whether or not you'd believe him when he says that nothing was offered.
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I thought you were very good on The Daily Politics today, Nick.
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Trudy_Victoria @4 exceeds her usual ZaNuLabour hyperbole ("sinister or even illegal") by writing:
"Politics at it's lowest form. What a level to sink to. I doubt if he can sink much lower than this episode."
This gob-smackingly ridiculous accusation is made against those exposing a government who has evidently bribed MPs in order to further erode our liberties.
No T-V, I'm not debating you - just pointing out to what despicable depths NuLabour supporters can sink.
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There is still hope in a naughty world. With all the talk of racism in the Met, whether valid or not, the bestowing of peerages and honours in the UK is certainly not. I believe we have a wider range of ethnics as new peers and lords than there are of the native UK subjects.
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Is it me or are Trudy_Victoria and Grandantidote the same person.
Certainly siamese twins!
Mind you you have to admire ability to see to type with thier collective head so firmly burried in the sand alongside GB's
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Oh look, not only has a certain letter been leaked but Peter Hain's in trouble again. Another very bad day for Labour. It's not all doom and gloom though--- with every offence Labour step ever closer to the political abyss. They'll be gone soon! :)
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Post #4 Trudy
Hi Trudy,
Although it's unclear whether or not the promises to Vaz are true or not, the letter, however it was obtained, hints at a very sinister arrangement being made.
42 days is an issue of great importance in relation to the liberties of people in this country and the possibility that any MP was swayed by the vanity of an honour is sickening - more so the Chair of the Home Affairs Select committee.
Judgements made by any MP voting on an issue of such great importance should be based on sound, informed thinking that passes the rigours of debate and not on the, implied or otherwise, gift of the government.
Why shouldn't David Cameron raise it in this forum - it's not as if they'll (the govt) really raise it themselves is it?
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What matters is not whether any deals were done, but that most people (certainly according to these posts) believe that deals WERE done.
So presumably, all of these people think that, when Gordon Brown states that he did no deals, he is lying.
Not good form for a PM who needs to go to the country within 22 months.
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Brown is a British version of the Iraq information minister. He stands there telling us one thing while we can quite blatantly see hes lying. There has to be some medical condition he is suffering from surely. Joe Bloggs off the street could get away with things better as PM than Brown. He gets caught and makes a mess of everything.
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Isn't this all a bit precious? Politics has always been in part about conviction and in part about rewards. (Oh and by conviction I don't mean the sort you receive before the 'beak'!) Mutual back scratching is part of the territory. Stick and carrot - that is what most things are about.
As a journo, Mr Robinson you must know this. This type of story diverts your 'blogists' from discussing more important things such as the colour of David Cameron's tie or if (Sir) John Major did wear his shirt inside his underpants!
PS
Do they still distribute title 'bungs' is a brown paper envelope? We should be told! Tell us now! or there will be no more buns through the bars of your cage!
Gravitas, Mr Robinson please.
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Nick,
I'm a bit confused.
No comment on Hazel Blears who said "If you look at Keith Vaz's position on the 42 days he was always going to support it - this wasn't a case of, you know, 'if you vote with us, we will offer you this'."
This is on the BBC site.
However, didn't Vaz and the home affairs committee originally oppose the 42 day detention until concessions were made.
Is this a minister forgetting ... being stupid ... being just Hazel Blears ... or yet one more lie who only the BBC report without comment ?
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When are we going to get a vote of no confidence for Mr Bean. Or will the oaf ignore thats happening too. The country is crying out for this man to go, who is going to be the strongest to oust him and at least attempt to get things back on track.
Good ole Gordie is not fit for this job in any shape, form or fashion. Start the campaign "Oust the Oaf!".
All Gordon seems to be doing is staggering quite poorly from one disaster to another. I'm pleading with the Labour Party, if you are desperate to keep in power get your act together and get Gordon out
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How about a couple of passports for him to pass on to his friends - he has done that before so he may appreciate that as a reward.
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Steve_HMFC_CF: You've missed the whole point.
We all *know* a deal was done. We don't like it, think it's wrong ... but we know it was done.
The story is that our Prime Minister just stood up at the despatch box in Prime ministers question Time and lied through his teeth (until interrupted by Gorbals Mick.)
He lied, Steve ... he lied to the commons, he lied to the country. The man is a liar.
That's a huge story.
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Just a few observations…
I can’t believe some of the commentators here are attacking Cameron for raising the issue. Given the contents of the letter and Brown’s stated position – can anybody really name a past leader of the opposition who wouldn’t have used it?
However, I don’t believe for one moment that the letter confirms that a bribe or reward had been offered to Vaz. The Chief Whip was almost certainly making a jokey reference to the rumours of bribes etc…. After all, if there had been an inducement, no GVN minister would have been foolish enough to refer to it in writing. Furthermore, I suspect that in private most Conservative commentators know this to be the case.
Equally since the 42 day vote was presented as an issue of national security and a near confidence vote in the PM; I’d be amazed if the whips hadn’t cajoled and arm-twisted a few backbench MP’s into supporting the GVN. This is normal practice in parliamentary system the world over; so why did Brown choose to explicitly deny the obvious? In doing so, he has created the conditions for Cameron’s opportunism – so if Labour supporters want to blame someone – blame the PM. Period.
For an astute politician, he is remarkably accident prone.
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re: 34
Yes! Oust the oaf! Boot out Brown! Get out Gordon! Wake up everyone, the PM is a liar--- no, hang on--- an UNELECTED liar. Nobody wants him there, he has no right to be there and there've been scandals every day all year. What else needs to be said?
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#4 Trudy-Victoria
"Politics at it's lowest form.
What a level to sink to. I doubt if he can sink much lower than this episode."
Baby - you ain't seen nothing yet! If you want to play with the big kids, wise up a little. What a limited small person you sound. Get real!
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How bad do things need to get before the New Labour supporters finally pack it in and have a bit of a crisis - i.e. admit to themselves that it's all been a Wizard of Oz act?
What will they believe in then? They obviously don't want to go with the hard left wingers, and they feel uncomfortable with Dave and Co.
You get the feeling that the limbs are still twitching with a desperate desire for survival / not see the truth.
Perhaps there's still mileage yet in the cobblers that Balls and Blears come up with! lol
And tell me again what the PM's "vision" is again? Or is it just the Emperor's Clothes?
Apologies for the clash of metaphors ;-)
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Right Brain of Britain at 38#
Tell me when this Country EVER elected a PM!!
When was it and which party did he belong to?
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The reply came load and clear Nick..
NONE
Sending a letter to someone to thank for their support is now perceived to be bribery, but having it black on white that someone paid a nanny hundreds of thousands of pounds from the public purse is correct.
So far Cameron has been the best leader to jump on the bandwagon to earn votes.
Ask them about what they would do with regards to the car tax regime and they will give the impression that they have some kind of a magic formula that they will tax, but not hurt, they will not tax, but agree to green taxes.
Where were they when in all previous budgets including Tories ones, when the chancellor used to increase tax on vehicles that were bought years before? Why call it retrospective now, because people are feeling the pinch?
They will tax cause they are green, but then when it comes to speaking with the hauliers they say that the Government should actually reduce tax on all fuel.
NO ONE AROUND THE WORLD IS REDUCING FUEL TAX. This would be counter productive.
By the way, who are the poor that bought a new car some 7 years ago. A car that has a 2.4 litre engine and does 10 miles to the gallon, and now cannot afford higher road tax? The poor people I am aware of, own vehicles that were even greener then new vehicles because they have 800 or 1000 cc engines. These will not be paying anything, and the Mondeo man is not considered to be poor either. I live in a rural area and I am not aware of any poor people, that own Range Rovers, BMW, and other extravagant 4x4 that cannot afford higher car tax.
Good night Nick.
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A prime minister who makes himself more unpopular every time he appears at the dispatch box, on the TV, on the GMTV sofa. What a tremendous result for NewLabour. Death by a thousand cuts.
Even Polly Tuscanybee can't stand him anymore. Come on the Guardianistas! get rid of Gordon now!
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It's a little silly for T_V to through her hands up in horror about a leaked document. It was, after all, from the Labour Chief Whip to a senior Labour MP. Possibly passed on by yet another Labour politico who's not too happy with the current state of affairs.
Blair used Campbell to leak - or organise the leakage of - masses of selected information. (Remember poor Dr. Kelly, who was not even given a proper in-depth inquest?) Brown/Balls used Whelan. So what's new?
Political horse-trading goes on all the time in Parliament, so it's not even a surprise.
But it could be disappointing. You would hope that on issues concerning defence of the Realm and defence of civil liberties, MPs would have the courage to vote with their conscience.
We all hope it never happens, but it would be interesting to see how the provisions of the "42 day" act really work. It will also be interesting to see what happens when, after 42 days there is still inadequate evidence to pursue a trial. (Especially if another country stumbles over some potentially useful evidence which can't be collated until day 44...
I'm not sure this was a great topic, Nick.
I'd be interested to understand where the Bank of England gets the money to cover all deposits in UK banks up to UKL50,000. Any idea what the total exposure is?
And if the BoE has all this money, why do Governments rack up UKL 300+Billions of debt, on which we (tax-payers) have to pay massive interest?
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Gordon Brown is good in a crisis (we are told).
But it is well known in management thinking that people who are good in crises tend to create them! (read Belbin)
It is probably too late for "Huge Intellect" Brown but management (the PM's job) is about taking timely decisions that are good enough not waiting until all the information is available because by then it will be too late. That is called hindsight! I have had to rescue too many projects because very bright people could not take decisions in a timely and effectively way.
Scary when he is running the country (down?).
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God, what IS wrong with Gordon Brown? Why does he continue to keep up with this pretence he is St Francis of Asissi reincarnated?
Deals were done, Cuban sanctions were lifted, the substantial ego of (Lord) Vaz was massaged for as long as it took to get what he wanted - oh, and the Ulster Unionists walked away with the cream..
And as a result, our freedoms have been chipped away at, yet again.
Why does this man Brown continue to insult our collective intelligence with his child-like insistence that deals were not done?
It's just so pathetic.
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Trudy Victoria-did you attend the Labour School of Spin or did you do the correspondence course? Either way, I must congratulate you as you obviously passed with honours.
Are you related to Charles E Hardwidge? I only ask as we haven't heard from him recently.
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I'll bet there were more deals done over the 42 days than in a poker game. Great heavens this nation is terrible trouble.
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re: 41
Erm let's see--- 1997, Blair. It was a landslide as I recall. I don't remember ever having the chance of voting for Gordon Brown. That was denied to us, remember? You mindless Labour supporters sure have selective memories.
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6#
You are about as barking mad as Cameron if you think for one minute that a lawyer of Geoff Hoons stature is going to put anything in writing that may incriminate him.
The problem is for you Tories is that for years you were all caught up in the mire of sleaze and corruption, you do not realise that there are others who do not share your sentiment.
I can understand why you feel that way and for thinking the way you do, after all you had 18 years where you knew no better.
Dispute that if you can or dare.
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In the past lying to the house was a resignation matter. Times and honourability have changed for the worse, unfortunately.
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I have to agree with an earlier poster that the significant thing about this episode is that there is now a knee-jerk willingness to believe that such an obviously jokey comment in a personal note has sinister conspiratorial implications. That must be of tremendous concern to the government, because this sort of mind- set, even when based on a degree of irrationality, is very difficult to turn around.
I am willing to give Cameron the benefit of the doubt since it appears that he only saw the report less than 10 minutes before PMQs, so he didn't have much time to think about what he was going to do. My own feeling is that on reflection he will tend to think that he was unwise, but now that he has raised it he will have to keep on trying to make as much capital as he can out of it.
The issue with the DUP looks like another non-issue. Brown is not as good a politician as Blair (who I greatly admire) when it comes to ducking and diving, but he simply could not make such clear statements about there being 'no deal' if in fact there had been. Too many people would have been involved, including at least 9 (?) who are hardly political allies, to have had any chance of keeping it quiet. As Nick said on TV this lunch time, there was a very straightforward position to adopt if there had been a deal since deals are the lifeblood of politics; no need at all to commit political suicide by trying to hide something that couldn't be hidden.
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47#
The short answer to both of these questions is emphatically NO!!.
I have never ever been a cared holding member of the Labour Party either, just in case that was your next question.
And no to the next question I frequently get asked, I do not have insider knowledge either.
just a strong Social concience and a great interest in politics
The sole reason I can comment on these things is, I have forgotten more about politics than some will ever know.
Plus the fact, I check my facts and I will argue the toss with anybody if I think I am right.
And like a Jack Russel I will not let go or be brow beaten by anybody.
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We should remember:
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
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49#
Erm when did the electorate ever elect a leader?
In this Country we elect Parties not leaders, or do you know something we do not?
A lot of people voted Labour who detested Tony Blair as they did Thatcher.
But perhaps you can contradict that can you?
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I have just reread Hoon's note.
I think it is clever wayfor MR GB to get out of having to deliver on the promises made to Keith Vaz - can hardly ennoble him or give him a knighthood now can they?
Or is just a blunder?
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If you watch the footage carefully… Jack Straws horrified face says it all.
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#55 Trudy_Victoria
49#
Erm when did the electorate ever elect a leader?
In this Country we elect Parties not leaders, or do you know something we do not?
T_V I don’t know about you but I voted for a prospective/standing MP who was a member of a particular party.
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Nick,
It would be helpful if you were to point out that Vaz only got the role of Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee as a result of some underhand measures last year by the then (impartial) Leader of the House, the grate Harriet.
Having gone to great lengths to get him into that post, it was surely beholden on wee Keith to come up trumps when the time arose.
Personally, I wouldn't believe a thing either Gordon, Harriet or wee Keith said, especially the latter as detailed in an earlier entry.
Meantime, all three are guaranteed a huge payout from us the taxpayers when they are finally given the heave ho. Is it only in Britain that we see such ineptitude followed by such reward???
We have Gordon (Mr Bean), Hoon the buffoon, Hazel I lost my laptop, Yvette two homes / two allowances and Dave who believes that Gordon isn't keen on being on Centre Court.
The leadership of the Labour Party? It really is a case of new Balls please (NOT)!
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And watch how the speakers saves Brown.
Even Brown is expecting to speak again and stands up. But the speaker brings in another question.
Shamefull
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Sorry I can seem to post the link this systems rubbish
Its all on Youtube.com just go looking for PMQs
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h6uLpKhFqo
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@49
One has never heard such stupidity in saying that we elect Prim Ministers.
In UK we elect parties and we never vote or chose a PM.
I do not know how old you are No.49, but let me start by telling you to stop throwing toys out of your pram.
Or are you another so called aid, paid from the public purse, (maybe a nanny), to come up with such stupidity? Go to sleep and be quiet, it’s past your bed time.
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@ 56,
My dear, only the Tories do those kind of things.
They used to give them to DICTATORS like Mugabe.
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#61 RussellHolmstoel
Sorry I can seem to post the link this systems rubbish
Its all on Youtube.com just go looking for PMQs
If you are commenting on PMQs earlier today it can be viewed on the BBC Political page under;
The full story: PMs questions.
Yes and I agree with you, they now even prohibit links to other BBC articles or stories.
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As distasteful as I find this timid, cowardly and pathetic prime minister, it's even worse when you see that cretinous Hazel Blears on The Politics Show.
It's then that you realise just how bankrupt Brown's supposed "government of all the talents" really is. Unless, of course, she's there to represent the talent of being thoroughly stupid, annoying and incompetent.
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#63 Onlywayup
@49
One has never heard such stupidity in saying that we elect Prim Ministers.
In UK we elect parties and we never vote or chose a PM.
I don’t know about you but I voted for a prospective/standing MP who was a member of a political party.
I do not know how old you are No.60, but let me start by telling you to stop throwing toys out of your pram.
Or are you another so called aid, paid from the public purse, (maybe a nanny), to come up with such stupidity? Go to sleep and be quiet, its past your bed time.
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Truth is most people have no trust in those at Westminster . The ones who cravenly followed Blair's imaginary weapons of mass destruction to wage an illegal war deserve all the opprobrium they get - regardless of party . It is obvious since then that their standards haven't risen at all and the voters know this . Talking of social conscience easy but condemning the actions of a 'Socialist' government which killed and maimed thousands of women and children takes more than that .
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66. subedeithemomgol
Shes there to make him look good.
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60' Your lack of political nous is definately to the fore with those remarks.
The speaker intervened because David Cameron like you was too wet behind the ears to know that a question like that should be put to the Standard Committee and not to the PM.
Cameron should have but did not know better the protocol regarding these matters.
So much for a potential PM.
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#42 Onlywayup
NO ONE AROUND THE WORLD IS REDUCING FUEL TAX.
Probably because no other country is ripping of people at the pumps with an almost 70% tax on fuel.
With regard to the proposed VED changes, buried in the small print is the scrapping of the exemption for older cars from the highest rates of vehicle excise duty. I don’t know about you but I have not seen many middle income earners, high income earners or rich drivers with cars over 10 years old. Yep once again Mr Bean is hitting the lowest paid workers in Britain.
Looks like NuLabour are the party that are driving our lowest paid workers off the roads.
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66#
I suggest you get a dictionaryu and look up the word cretin.
You are going far to far calling Hazel blears that.
In fact once years ago a labour MP called Sir Alec Douglas Hulme a cretin and was quite rightly suspended from Parliament for doing so.
Apolologies if I have his name spelled wrong.
It is a disgusting thing to call any human being, but still I expect you to know no better.
Have you never been taught manners?
I
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The shocking thing is the stupidity of all of this. As Nick says people will be looking at the Northern Island MPs and Vaz. Many activists will have walked away after 10p and then 42 days. He has gained little and lost public trust and confidence (the Crewe budget for example) for a short term poll boost that appears not to have happened.
He's lost it. He is detached and I am starting to wonder if the "psychologically flawed" thing was not just a jibe.
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For all those who love to demonstrate their knowledge of our electoral system by telling us that we do not judge in Prime Ministers...
The attitude to Mr Foot and Mr Kinnock in the 70's and 80's that helped Labour suffer so badly.
It's all well and good to quote that the electorate vote for their local MP first but what the vast majority of people look for is a LEADER and FIGUREHEAD!
On that basis many people who voted for a party that was very much styled by the former PM, now feel that they have a party that they cannot connect with.
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70. Trudy_Victoria
Im pleased you brought up NuLabour standards
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7486035.stm
Dont panic thought its just another
'Innocent mistake'
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No 72, I suggest that you look at your dictionary, where you should find a second (colloq) definition of cretin which is "stupid person".
That defines Blears and - interestingly enough - you.
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#72
Actually Trudy-Victoria, I absolutely agree with you. #66 subedeithe momgol raises many excellent points, and I agree with him as to the quality of Brown and his government.
He is, however, wrong in calling Blears a cretin. With her lack of intelligence, political knowledge, articulation, breeding, honest compassion or any other attribute essential in public life, she nust be a wily character, full of cunning that enables her to land a position, paid for by the unfortunate tax payers.
Whilst condemning the said blogger's manners, this is a question of the pot calling the kettle black. Reading your boring postings, when you are not embarrassing us with your personal details (as another poster wrote to you - this is not a social network), you rant and rave trying to insult those who do not agree with you. Think about it.
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In my opinion Hazel Blears has to be the most smug, self righteous politician I have ever seen. She can make the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end just appearing on the box.
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#47 jaydkay
Are you related to Charles E Hardwidge? I only ask as we haven't heard from him recently.
Funny you should ask that question, I believed she was related to kiwilegs.
chuck_e_Hogwash I believe has retreated into is inner self!
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Poor old Mr Vaz what ever reward he was ever going to get for services to the country and as a major committe chairman he probably was in line, has surely gone out of the window.
No one in the future will belive it was not for the 42 day vote.
Yes deals have to be done in whatever party, unfortunately this government is being very blatant.
As to comment by Hazel Blears she needs to remember the British public probably have a better memory than her, and to be good at porkies you have to have good memory, hers seems to be suffering.
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#78 stephenni1971:"In my opinion Hazel Blears has to be the most smug, self righteous politician I have ever seen. She can make the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end just appearing on the box. "
Oddly enough I had (still have) the same visceral reaction to Margaret Thatcher. But unlike you, I accept that that is my problem, not hers.
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"Just a joke". I find even that to be sad if it is true. It confirms the impression that so many of our politians are just playing games. It's just the way the "club" members are.
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stephenni1971 @78wrote:
"In my opinion Hazel Blears has to be the most smug, self righteous politician I have ever seen."
True. Apart from Flint.
And Hoon...
And Harriet Harperson...
And Milipede...
Oh, and Balls.
(and Mrs Balls, too)
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Of course David Cameron was right to question Gordon Brown on the letter. That's exactly what the Leader of the Opposition is there for - to hold the Government to account and to scrutinise their actions thoroughly.
Having said that, even if it was meant as a joke, - what a stupid comment for Geoff Hoon to put in the leter!
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Nick,
I'm sure that you already know that Nick Palmer, the Labour MP for Broxtowe, posted the following on pb.com:
“I did get something for my vote - the promise of compensation for people detained longer than 28 days who are subsequently released - Mohammed Sarwar and I made that our condition.
by Nick Palmer MP June 11th, 2008 at 8:24 pm”
If that isn't a deal - honest and open though it may be - what the hell is?
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Re No. 59
Is it only in Britain that we see such ineptitude followed by such reward???
Actually, yes!
Neil Kinnock, failed as Labour leader, sent to Brussels. Failed at that, sent to the Lords.
Peter Mandyson, sacked (TWICE) sent to Brussels.
In this country we reward failure but penalise success. Budget cuts to HM Forces but knighthoods/promotions to the real incompetents!
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Trudy Victoria (TV) is proving to be an typical New Labour apologist. We all know Vaz's dereadful track record on truthfulness and looking after himself and not serving the public - just goole him. Hoon had done a deal with him to support 42 days - shame on them! And the sad sanctimonious way that Trudy Victoria takes the heat off Vaz, Hoon and Brown by attacking their critics is also typical New Labour. Have you also noticed that New Labour, despite 11 years in power, always now try to go back to the days of Tory Governments! New Labour has proved to be economically incompetent, corrupt and dishonest in its vast array of stealth and retrospective taxes. Well at least they will get thrown out at the next election.
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Trudy-Victoria why do you come across as an arrogant self opinionated prig? Try sticking to facts and the theme of the blog not attacking anyone who points out the falts and double standards shown by New Labour.
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Comment number 4 by "Trudy Victoria"...
and what evidence is there that Cameron used any form of underhand method to obtain this information? even if the relevant newspaper used perhaps immoral methods (almost certainly somebody associated with Mr Vaz leaked it to them - so certainly *not* illegal), Cameron has done nothing illegal, and surely as leader of the opposition it is moral, nay, obligatory, for him to question the prime minister on this topic.
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#89 Jon_C_Robinson: "almost certainly somebody associated with Mr Vaz leaked it to them "-
I think that is most unlikely. This was a personal note, I think handwritten. Vaz would either have kept it himself, or quite possibly dropped it in his waste bin because there was no obvious reason to keep it.
I suspect that somebody picked it out of the bin, either in his office or in the Commons waste collection area, and gave/sold it to the paper. They might well be paying somebody to rifle through the rubbish - they certainly do it to celebrities.
The amazing thing is that anybody took it seriously, when it was obviously a joke referring back to Vaz's comment in the House when he was accused of having been bought by the offer of a Knighthood.
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Week after week at PMQ's Broon falls back on the old list... extra investment... you've never had it so good... Oh for once if he would just ANSWER a question. Clegg hit the nail right on the head with the 'list not answer' comment.
He derides the tories with the old ' he could have asked any question and he wastes it on flippant comments'... then has a laugh as one of his own uses a question to ask about Gordon Banks.
I also thought the tory comment on Afghan was very pertinent too. We are now stuck in a dirty war with no way out. How it sickens me to see Blair whoring himself around the world as a great peacemaker when OUR lads and girls are off fighting in a war he started.
I had the honor of meeting an Army Captain today who had just received the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal for going back under fire 5 times to rescue his wounded men. It's people like that this country is letting down - there are those who are prepared to lay down their lives for US , yet we have many living here and supported by the state who would do anything to bring us down - remember the afghan hijackers who brought a plane here - we were told they would be deported - and years later they are staying and all on benefits.
The sooner this government are out the better
Rant over....
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As with the denial that falling polls had anything to do with bottling the election-that-never-was, Brown reverts to type, preferring a lie that insults the intelligence of the voters to a truth that might admit to some weakness.
Had Brown then wryly smiled and said "Nobody calls an election they don't have to when the odds don't look in their favour" people would still have applauded Cameron's success but they wouldn't have regarded Brown with the scorn that his ridiculous denials earned him.
And as you say, had he said "I have done whatever bargaining was necessary to secure the safety of the country" then tosh though this argument would be (last year we needed 90 days so whatever happened to not compromising?) some would have given him the benefit of the doubt. But no, the old instincts kick in and his reflex is always to lie and deny everything, however ludicrous the argument.
Of course the interesting question now is what extra Brown will have to offer those who were also offered "sweeteners" on the 42 days deal to now keep quiet about it - it'll only need a couple to bring him down now I reckon...
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johnmbkr wrote:
"In the past lying to the house was a resignation matter. Times and honourability have changed for the worse, unfortunately."
Well, except for David Davis, who HAS resigned on a point of principle. But we won't be hearing about that from Nick Robinson, because he believes that Davis was 'having a mid-life crisis'.
I wonder whether journalists also cut deals for lobby access....
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"You are about as barking mad as Cameron if you think for one minute that a lawyer of Geoff Hoons stature is going to put anything in writing that may incriminate him." - Trudy_Victoria
But he didn't - he put something in writing that incriminated Gordon Brown...
And besides, why not? Labour don't worry about putting things in writing that may incriminate them - just look at their promises to hold a referendum on the EU Constitutional Treaty (yes, "treaty") or not to introduce university top-up fees. Or indeed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction ready for use in 45 minutes.
About the worst thing one can say about this Government is not that they lie, not even that they feel no deep shame in lying, but that they see absolutely nothing even slightly wrong in doing so. Habitually.
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#90 jimbrant
The amazing thing is that anybody took it seriously, when it was obviously a joke referring back to Vaz's comment in the House when he was accused of having been bought by the offer of a Knighthood.
I could agree with your opening remarks with regards acquisition of the note, as one option, but the latter part above takes a quantum leap of faith. A leap that I believe not to many people will take.
I say that because an ever increasing number of people, due to previous events, now do not trust this PM, no matter what he says.
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Hazel Blears really infuriated me speaking to Nick and the Daily Politics earlier, saying how bad arguments annoy Gordon Brown - sorry? this is a government who refuse to listen to anything and force through unpopular bills without evidence or consultation - they haven't got anything good!
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oh and - Trudy_Victoria
this is called holding the government accountable, we may not like the media's actions sometimes but getting information like this is one of the few ways of keeping government action in check, I don't want labour running around doing what they like without getting caught
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Trudy_Victoria:
'....I suggest you get a dictionaryu and look up the word cretin....'
Hahahaha!
Perhaps you should get a dictionary and look up the spelling for.........'dictionary'
'....You are going far to far calling Hazel blears that.....'
I think you mean......'going too far'
You're not very well educated are you Trudi?
'......In fact once years ago a labour MP called Sir Alec Douglas Hulme a cretin and was quite rightly suspended from Parliament for doing so.
Apolologies if I have his name spelled wrong......'
HeeHeeHee!
Yes; well spotted TV you did spell his name incorrectly..........it's 'Home'
You also misspelt 'apologies'..........DOH!
'.....It is a disgusting thing to call any human being, but still I expect you to know no better....'
My God! The grammar is just tortuous!
'....Have you never been taught manners?....'
Have you, Trudi, ever been..........well?........taught anything?
Priceless drivel from a New Labour "Educashun, Edukayshon, Educashunalist"
What fun! :O)
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"I trust you will be appropriatlly rewarded!"
Can you not see that is a joke? as Conservatives are a miserable lot probably not.
publishing this letter on the website 9 minutes before pmqs and giving a copy to Cameron is a cheap trick from a Conservative propaganda sheet. Is rifling through someones rubbish not an invasion of civil liberties? David Davis future leadership challenger and former shadow home secretary will be cross. Hypocrites!
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Things must be bad in the mother country if the opposition has to rely on the Daily Telegraph to score points at PMQ on what is a pretty open goal issue.
Also sorry to see another desperate government having to do deals with the Unionists though. Reminds me of the last days of Major's government.
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18#
What deed would that be?
I think Tories have been mired in sleaze for so long that is all they can see now.
The only thing I can see that is direputable is your mind.
But then I have come to expect that from Clan Cameron et al.
Still I expect you are going to tell me you are not not a Conservative
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89#
Point to where I said Cameron used underhanded methods please.
Can I remind you Cameron complained bitterly when the Daily Mirror rifled his dustbin to check his green credentials and found them sadly lacking.
Are you condoning someone using anothers private mail and making capital out of it?
I think this is a form of theft, are you condoning thieving?
Have you lost so many values that you do not realise these actions are wrong.
Is this the way and example you would show your children?
If so it is no wonder we have the mess we have today with some of these kids.
I think you need to sit down and reflect on your post as their is something amiss with your principles and values.
Would you like your personal mail to be published by all and sundry?
You are a strange sort of person if the answer to those questions are yes.
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#101 Trudy_Victoria
18#
What deed would that be?
I think Tories have been mired in sleaze for so long that is all they can see now.
I don’t know where you have been for the last 11 years but NuLabour have become the experts at sleaze, corruption and using the gravy train for many of those involved.
But as many of us know if you wear spectacles they are rose tinted ones, if you don’t then you suffer from tunnel vision!
And I am not a Tory, but the way its going I will be voting for them come 2010. As somebody north of the border recently said - Bring it on!
22 months to go!
Oh by the way I am glad to see you have not gone back to writing your biography. It was boring, I cant see you selling more than a handful of copies, and those are to your immediate family.
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Dear Nick
I expect that "dirty tricks" --- were played out in this denouciation of our freedoms, if Geoff Hoons behind it then you can guarantee its dirty.
There are two more dirty tricks that people have not picked up on.(!) The Foreign secretary agrees with Sarkozy that there should be a joint European Army.
(2) Ainsworth has just stated that 43 MOD, bases will close,
"So theirs your answer, ? " I have a letter from Gordon Brown via my MP Des Turner stating this will not happen.
"IF IT WERE TO HAPPEN, THEN I FOR ONE WOULD BACK A COUP BY THE MILITARY TO DEPOSE POLITICIANS., THAT IS TREACHEROUS TALK, BECAUSE BRITAIN SHOULD RETAIN ITS ARMED FORCES IN THEIR ENTIRITY."
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#39,
Sorry, but that was well below the belt. As someone who has debated with the lady many times I feel that an apology from your good self is in order.
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#64,
Stones and glasshouses, Stones and glasshouses....
Nicolas Ceausescu was made a Knights Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath by James Callaghan. Back to your Sixth-Form creche for you young man!
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#72
"I suggest you get a dictionaryu...."
Words: Petard, Hoisted, own, by.
Task: Construct the appropriate sentence.
;)
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To Trudy_Victoria
You have too much time on your hands to post all the comments you have.
You react to critiscism like a scalded child with petulance and no substance.
You are in love with your own oppinions and the labour party.
My father always said "empty vessels make the most noise." He is right.
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#104
Wind you neck in soloman, the last thing this country needs is rule by the military.
WE'd never get any clothes to fit, for a start.
The armed forces and their troops have been shafted since serfdom. Nothing has changed.
Want to see some great political amnouvering, investigate why St Athen has just got the big RAF contract (sweetner to the Welsh) and not Cosford, which is better located and has better existing facilities, but is in Tory shropshire. Not that its a political thing of course :)
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107#
What's up fluyfy.
You just seem as though you cannot vent your spitein any other way, so you turn to the antics of the kindergarden and act like a spoiled petulant child.
Age comes to all none of us can avoid it.
You really surprise me.
Come to think of it ,NO!that is wrong.
You are reverting to type.
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#110
Substance of the post, not the individual. If you wish to criticise, first ensure that you are not as guilty as those you accuse.
Etiquette, nothing more.
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103#
One of the good things of these threads is.
if you do not wish to read anything scroll down.
I suggest you do that rather than complain viciferously what others have written.
Seems to me I have come across you before.
You will give yourself away, sooner rather than later.
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I think that the comment was made in jest. However one would have to be pretty naive to believe that it was only in jest.
The power of patronage is very powerful. When someone does another person in authority a favour then the favour is usually banked to be drawn on later. 'Twas ever thus, in every walk of life.
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Trudy-Victoria,
Everyone has a point of view, and an opinion, please do not resort to petty name calling instead of actually getting involved in a reasonable debate.
I had thought with you name change from kiwilegs you might have changed your attitude as well - obviously I was wrong
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#90
did jimbrant take the invasion of Iraq seriously?
was the warning on WMD something NewLabour just casually dropped in the bin?
Were all the cash for peerages just accidentally dropped in the bin?
Was this like Tony Blair accidentally dropping relevant information in the shredder.
It's all so accidental in NewLabou these days it's a woder anyhting ever gets done at all except by accident.
This is typical Newlabour spin. If it works take the credit if it crashes and burns it's a hands up not my fault moment.
So the boom was all to do with them but the loss of data, busted Northern Rock, endless NHS reviews and demoralised staff, complete lack of infrasturcture planning, lack of manner or method for Gordon Brown's nuclear plan; oh, no sir, that's nothing to do with us. Tripartite structure? Not our fault, oh, no sir. Railtrack bust? Nothing to do with us. Metronet bust? But PFI wasn't our idea was it? Universities fudging standards? But that's nothing to do with our targets, is it? Knife crime? Don't know how that happened but it's nothing to do with us.
There's so much they have absolutely nothing to do with it makes you wonder what they've been doing for eleven years?
I'm sure Gordon Brown can come up with a nice list of his achievements.
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And we wonder why the yooff have no respect the for the elderly.
Is anyone here to talk politics.
And to anyone tempted to shout … She started it, please refer to a parenting manual.
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If the comment is so controversial that they wouldn't want it to get out. Why wasn't it shredded? Was it shredded? are they so desperate at the Conservative party newsletter the Telegraph. That they have resorted to doing jigsaws with shredded mail?
If there is some rule that says they can't shred mail then why didn't they just speak to each other? a non story jumped on by hyperactive conservative supporters. Avoid food colourings, drinking too much coffee and reading the Daily Telegraph is my advice.
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*109,
Totally agree with your comments on Cosford, wait until you see Cosford up for closure.
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"I trust that it will be appropriately rewarded!...With thanks and best wishes, Geoff."
Do you people think this is some sort of code you have cracked or something? A little melodramatic and spoken word to be taken seriously don't you think. Sounds like something out of a Bond film. Clearly a joke.
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@102
Err, unless I'm very much mistaken you said in post #4 that Cameron used underhand methods. I look forward to reading your NuLabEsque spin to try and rewrite the facts or insult my intelligence for not *getting* what your're trying to say.
Oh, and if the PM was referring to their being no bribes, he should've said "there were no bribes". He didn't. He said, quite emphatically, there were no *deals* done. This seems to imply that there were no deals of *any kind* done, which, by your own admission, there were.
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To everyone saying this is a joke, get real! That really is the last resort of the desperate when you've said something that has got you into trouble. If it was a simple joke, then it would've been a simple matter for Vaz or Hoon to say so. To my knowledge no one in government is making that claim, presumably because it's to ridiculous a claim for even the government to make.
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Perhaps Nick, you could help us all out. For all of those who have done the Government an acknowledged favour, how are they positioned today?
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I think i'll stay out of the "he said"..."she said" petty bickering that is characteristic of the intransigent amongst the commenters here. The current 'car crash' that is Brown's tenure as PM is however gripping stuff to watch.
The look of sheer disbelief on Jack Straw's face as he turned to look at Geoff Hoon when David Cameron's question was posed, was just priceless!
I'm no NuLabour lover, but I did really admire Tony Blairs skill as a PM and politician. Sadly, Gordon Brown really does suffer by comparison. I almost feel sorry for him.
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Does any one reading these comments get totally annoyed at the silly and irrelevant things that Trudy-Victoria is posting? She is insulting people and uses New Labour distorted arguments and spin. It's time she was banned from comenting or kept to the thread.
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robinJD@115
Northern rock was caused by the Global Credit Crunch, The FSA failed to do its job properly so maybe it is at fault rather than the idea of the department itself.
Railtrack was milking the country for profits and didn't do its job properly. Leading to people being killed in rail accidents. It deserved to go bust. Money was given to subsidise rail infrastructure not shareholders.
Lack of infrastructure planning? I take it your another one who isn't a conservative because this one is a joke. 18 years of poor infrastructe during the conservatives See Railtrack above a botched privatisation by the conservatives.
Demoralised staff at the NHS another joke. Underfunding of the NHS was a bit demoralising don't you think?
Knife crime. No it isn't anything to do with labour. I think it is quite sick to suggest such a thing. Its the sort of obnoxious line you right wingers take. and the conservatives try to imply. Fear of crime. Don't go out, Its too dangerous under Labour. I think this line is more dangerous than some stupid letter.
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Nobody seems to have covered two clever and one maybe not so clever aspect of David Camerons baiting of Gordon Brown on 42 days.
One 'clever' aspect is that if he's succeeded in making impossible for Labour to fulfil their 'deals' with Vaz or the Northern Irish party, then future 'deals' will be much harder for Labour to secure in similar circumstances as people worry whether they'll be delivered.
The second 'clever' bit is that he's pointed up the foolishness of Brown's policy of denying things even when 99.9% of the population believe they're true and maybe in that way he'll force Labout to be more truthful with less spin.
The 'not so clever' bit is that if/when he becomes PM he might just be faced with the same problems over 'deals' and 'denials' as his predecessor.
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120#
Err read it again at #4
I said quote:
Cameron commenting on private correspondance probably obtained through
sinister or illegal methods.
like Cameron you are reading more into it than what was actually said.
Now read the next paragraph.
You selectively missed that bit.
Bribes were what Cameron had hinted at the week before and bribes were my words not that of the PM.
You pick out selective bits but still do not answer my questions.
Do you condone the theft of private mail?
Do you think that Cameron has a right to complain when a newspaper rifled his dusbin to check on his green credentials and found them wanting.
Why does he complain about that practice and yet has no hesitation to use private correspondance once again probably obtained either illegally or under dubious means, to score cheap points?
To rifle a dustbin is not illegal.
And do you think theft of your mail and having it printed for all and sundry to read is acceptable bahaviour?
Would you like it to happen to you
And wpould you find it acceptable behaviour.
If you do once again I think you ought to take a look at your principles if you have any, plus your values as I think they would be found wanting
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#125
no that's right, NewLabour responsible for absolutely nothing. So waht's the point of you? Time you cleared off.
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#120 ArsenaltillIdie: "If it was a simple joke, then it would've been a simple matter for Vaz or Hoon to say so."
And indeed they have. Not only have I heard them say so, it is reported on the BBC site - I quote:
"Both Mr Hoon and Mr Vaz have said the remark had been a "light-hearted" one. "
I am amazed that anyone can think that this wasn't a joke. The words 'humour' and 'transplant' come to mind. Did you not see the earlier lighthearted exchanges in the House involving Vaz to which the note was clearly referring?
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#123 HutchinsonsWindmill: "The look of sheer disbelief on Jack Straw's face as he turned to look at Geoff Hoon when David Cameron's question was posed, was just priceless!"
I have already pointed out that we can't know why he was disbelieving. One possibility was that he couldn't believe that Cameron could be so crass as to use such an issue at PMQs, and so humourless that he couldn't recognise a joke when he saw one.
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#118 - it will not close, but change from an aeronautical college to something much more likely to send the locals into a real tantrum
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Mr Brown replied: "Not at all, nor do I recall writing any letters to anyone."
Sounds like a side step if I ever saw one
Cynics may so
does that mean that he possibly did write one or two ( or they were written on his behalf ) and the "do I recall" allows for the MP old get out of
OK I did it but
"I did not remember!"
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Is blog reserved now only for those with deep-seated psychological problems? Reading a lot of the one-eyed drivel being spouted on both sides it is no wonder people are put off politics.
The line about the reward seems like a joke to me albeit a foolish one. No doubt some dubious bargains were struck.
It does not change the fact that the Government are now in a permanent tate of reactivism. No one is listening any more and they cannot set the agenda. Brown has been brutally exposed as a very limited individual. It's over.
Unfortunately Cameron is not convincing either. When he should have the courage to be radical and show what he's about he seems opportunistic and unable to change to snouts in the trough mentatility of many Tory MPs and MEPs.
The fact is you can't fit a policy fag paper between two sets of unlikeable, career politicos who have no real idea of what life in this country is actually like. They just milk the endless roundabout of patronage and connections.
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As for the debate about electing a PM, as we all know in theory people vote for their preferred MP as an individual.
In actuality they normally vote for the party that the individual candidate represents and quite a high proportion do that along 'tribal' lines.
However most of the time they know who is going to lead that party in government so the leadership of the parties can be considered an influence on voting patterns.
If you ask electors I suspect the latter aspect has a large influence on the way they vote and therefore it can be said that they voted for a Prime Minister.
When a PM steps down the choice of a successor becomes the choice of a small number of people within the governing party's membership. Therefore depending on how much the original choice of PM was influenced by the leader it can be said that the sub. could have a very dodgy mandate from the electorate.
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#124 Piran52
Yes T-V can be annoying, but I am totally against censorship, and despite being one of her latest victims, I wear her disapproval as a badge of honour.
I see her ravings as a form of psychotherapy, not readily available on the target run NHS. Far healthier to abrade her fellow bloggers than to swallow tranquillizers. If she is horrible now, just think how worse she will be when her beloved Nu-Labour is voted out.
At the end of the day she makes for amusement, and every tragedy and historical drama needs a court jester!
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125#
Have you noticed that when some cannot enter into an itelligent, meaningful debate, their next instinct is to deny others freedom of speech.
How pathetic is that?
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13o#
Yes , Jack Straw's face was a picture to behold.
Both he and Geoff Hoon thought they were in the school playground with the school clipe making the charges.
It was comical.
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@129
So it's lighthearted and anyone who questions that needs a humour transplant eh? Sounds like a case of trying to dig their way out of this hole
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If Vaz gets any kind of title he can wear it with shame. I'd be prepared to update his Wikipedia profile so all who read are aware of the bribery and disgraceful practices of politicians.
Brown in his quest to discover Britishness has actually stumbled upon something very British indeed... feudal vanity.
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RobinJD
#125
no that's right, NewLabour responsible for absolutely nothing. So waht's the point of you? Time you cleared off.
Quite rude, No need to loose your temper Just because you lost the arguement, you clearly typed this in haste and will repent at leisure. Waht is the point of you? apart from endless comments about the Tri partite system and your right wing nonsense. I seem to recall that you called Gordon Brown of New Labour a communist. I will clear off when I decide not when some boring right winger tells me thanks. Freedom of speech for Conservatives and right wingers. Not for the rest of us. As I said earlier Hypocrites.
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Trudie victoria wrote.
"125#
Have you noticed that when some cannot enter into an intelligent, meaningful debate, their next instinct is to deny others freedom of speech.
How pathetic is that?"
I think you mean RobinJD@128 which was about @125. Waht is the point of him?
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139@doctorbreezy
No wonder Wikipedia is such a reputable source of information. With experts like you contributing ;O)
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Once again, and this is something that concerns me greatly, its the media (in this case the Torygraph) that are manipulating the Political Agenda to allign it with their own goals and views.
Thankfully there are only about a couple of hundred people who blog on here, mostly with distinct and entrenched political leaning (including me) anyone who thinks we bloggers are representative of the wider population are IMO kidding themselves.
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piran52@124
Yet another freedom of speech if you say what we want to hear comment. We Read your masses of tripe. So show some respect or go back to the comfort of your Daily Telegraph. Where They will massage your ego.
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#143. I think a couple of the points you make are quite valid. Now what if it was discovered that it was David Cameron who had written such a letter?
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141#
Exactly and there are a few more of his ilk, who cannot put forward a decent debate.
Yet they wish to deny the right of those that can.
Keep posting dhwilkinson at least yours is intelligent and does have a point to it.
Thank heavens for the likes of you Grandantidote and Etonrifles, you all bring some sanity to the site.
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145#
Well firstly it was the Chief Whip of the Labour Party not Brown.
So if the Tory Chief Whip wrote to a Tory Mp after winning a crucial vote with the same words and it was handed to the telegraph, I don't think we'd ever have known about it, thats my point. If we did get to, in all honesty I think its small Fry compared for instance to Chicester/Spellman.
Its yet another "opportunistic" typical Cameron PMQ, nothing to do with Policy etc
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#130 jimbrant.... Is that what you really think Jim? that Jack Straw's face represented that he though David Cameron's question was crass? We could all posit what it might have been....it could have been a massive onset of wind....but it's not what I believe. What do you believe most people would conclude? I suspect it would be disbelief that Hoon had been so stupid...and horror that Brown had just been caught out in a lie.
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#146 Trudy_Victoria.....so your measure of sanity is to hear debate only from those that agree with your political point of view (eg Grandantidote and Eatonrifles)? I guess that's why your postings come across as totally entrenched and completely blinkered. Not that you are alone on this, of course.
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I'd be amazed if no deals had been done at all, but I suspect that Vaz wasn't offered anything significant. If he had been, surely even Buff wouldn't have been stupid enough to put anything in writing, would he?
Mind you, to put even a joke like that in writing in the current climate shows a staggering lack of judgement. It's truly scary that people like that are running the country.
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#147. Yes, but what if you did get to hear about it? Do you honestly think the Labour Party would have let it go? I cannot imagine that anyone would be so naive to think so. Do you? After all, we are talking about the party that ridiculed John Major by saying that he tucked his shirt into his underpants. Great hoot at the time, but really!
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145#
It does not matter who wrote the letter.
The every fact that Cameron read out in public, a private letter, belonging to someone else not knowing where it had come from, or even if it was accurate or not speaks volumes about the man.
This is not behaviour becoming to a man who would put himself forward to be elected as a future PM or Statesman.
More like an Eton fag, another Flashman type who has fogotten to stop behaving as a typical Bullingdon Boy, he finds it impossible to drop that mantle.
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151#
it was a comedy show "Spitting Images " that coined that, not the Labour Party.
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147. Eatonrifle
Ref .. Its yet another "opportunistic" typical Cameron PMQ, nothing to do with Policy etc
This what the oppositions does it tests the metal of the government, it pokes for holes in policy and tests the governments resolves. It should do this at every opportunity and at any opportunity. This is its purpose; it’s a devils advocate.
Its not really there to answer questions or come up with major policies. That comes when all parties make their case to the electorate just before an election.
You guys had better hunker down, there is a lot more of this to come.
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147. Eatonrifle
We all know deals are struck and that there are trade offs, and we also all know that gongs are given out for being supportive. Of course we all know it goes on its the way the game is played. It’s life . You scratch my back Ill scratch yours. They all do it.
What is bloody insulting is that Brown really thinks we don’t know this and that we are going to believe him when he says NO to a question like that.
We all know his future as PM depended on a yes vote on 42 days and it was very close. We know his team would have been giving away the gold to get people on side. Well they would have been if we had any left.
He takes us for fools
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@#152
T_V
you Ms have missed the point. The letter was written and once discarded into a bin it becomes fair game.
If Dave had taken the time to establish its authenticity it would have proved to be authentic. Therefore the question is still legitimate.
What would your reaction have been had a letter discarded by Thatch proved that she intentionally allowed Argentina to invade the Falklands came into Labour hands at the time. Do you suggest they should have buried it?
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hutchinsonswindmill@149
I suspect Trudie Victoria's judgement of sanity is to allow people with different points of view to speak without others trying to intimidate them off the site. Which is where this line of conversation started.
It may surprise some of you to know that there are more than the 10 or so people who contribute here who don't vote for the Conservatives, UKIP or BNP. I suggest if some of you don't like a balance of points of view that you go to the Daily Telegraph site. That'll give you what you are looking for.
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#148 HutchinsonsWindmill: "Is that what you really think Jim"
I think that my suggestion is certainly possible, and more likely than yours. Another possibility is that, since he hadn't seen the letter, his initial reaction may have been that it was much worse than it turned out to be. He may well have thought that since Cameron was raising it there must have been some substance to it. Whatever his initial reaction, it is now obvious to all but the most prejudiced that there is nothing to it.
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#150 DisgustedOfMitcham2 : "Mind you, to put even a joke like that in writing in the current climate shows a staggering lack of judgement."
Why? It was completely innocuous. When Vaz joked in the House that "There's still time" (for him to get a knighthood as a 'reward' for voting for the government) was that a staggering lack of judgement? No, of course not. It was just a joke. Even Tories make such cracks from time to time.
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153 Trudy_Victoria : "151#
it was a comedy show "Spitting Images "[sic] that coined that, not the Labour Party."
I thought it was a cartoonist in the Grauniad, but I won't argue!
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86 Toby Trip I dont know why you Tories leave yourselves wideopen ,WellI do but I'm not allowed to say so here.
Where shall we start OK,
Neil Kinnock failed leader of the Labour party.A post in the EU.certainly did not fail at that, retired to the Lords.
William Hague failed leader Tory party still hanging on.
Ian Duncan Smith failed leader of the Tory party still hanging on.
Mandleson not sacked but resigned twice on both occassions found that the actions bringing him to resign not found sufficient in fact second time completly cleared, returned to the house and offered a position in the EU which he took and is there today.
Chris Patten failed minister and chairman of the conservative party.Given by Tony Blair the plum job of being governer of Hong Kong, then made a peer , currently resides in the house of Lords.
David Mellor junior minister failed given a very nice job with football by Tony Blair now works for radio.
I could go on but what is the poin tyou tories never learn you have far more to hide than the Labour party.
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51 johnmbkr , It still is.
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At last we finally discover the heart of Newlabour:
Class warfare, 'Bullingdon bully boys, Eton fags' ... is the the best NewLabour can do?
Let's throw some Tory toff mud and hope it sticks.
More appropriate;y let's hope it covers up our eleven years of NewLabour financial incontinence and incompetence with spin as a substitute for policy.
It doesn't and it never will.
Who cares where David Cameron was educated? i thought that was the whole principle of NewLabour/NewLoveIn?
Apparently not. They simply can't put away the class warfare bows and arrows.
What a shame. Clearly they are not the party of aspiration. They are the party of disintegration.
Looking forward to repeating Crewe and Nantwich at the general election.
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#156 Pot_Kettle: Your statement that the contents of an MPs wastepaper basket is 'fair game' must be questionable to say the least.
You miss the main point, which is that Cameron should have realised when he read the note that it was jocular. His impatience to attack Brown got in the way of his judgement, in my view - it is quite common in any form of combat (including debate) for one side to see what they think is an opening and to rush into it without thinking first. It is often fatal.
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159. jimbrant
This letter was probably not a real promise of a reward. I gather they are always inferred not issued in writing.
But you have to accept that to write such a thing even in jest is pretty daft.
A bit like me adding at the bottom of a tender document, don’t forget to collect the brown paper envelope from the office. Only as a joke you understand.
I am sure scrutinising officers would not think there was really an envelope waiting for them.
But they would read this joke as me not having a sufficient appreciation of the seriousness of the situation or the need for propriety.
Hence Jacks YOU BERK expression.
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@164
Jimbrant
It is a fact that trash is fair game. The police use this distinction often in gathering information on crime without tipping said criminal off with a warrant.
Once its in the trash its in the public domain.
I would also refer the honourable gentleman to a post which he has already refuted but i still hold t'other blokes comment as valid.#150
No matter how innocuous and jocular the writing of the letter was another extraordinary lack of judgement by an incumbant party which is teetering on the edge of the pit of credability.
Its all so 1997 and look what happened then to the incumbants
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#163 RobinD
I am not a tory, but I say bravo to your posting. I am weary of the nastiness that socialists spew out at anyone who dares to disagree with them. They are the greatest proponents of division in this land. Their name calling would be considered slanderous if others chose to use it. Personally, I do not like Cameron or his policies, but that does not make him either one of the 'Bullingdon bully boys or Eton fags' . I could find a few choice adjectives for the NuLabour mob, but if I employed them I would be banished from this board for ever.
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161 Oh! I forgot dear old michael failed leader still hanging on, waiting for his seat in the Lords
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Well I'm all for free speech but the NuLabour apologists here are spinning so fast that they really should be connected to the national grid rather than building all those totally pointless windmills.
The point is that it is a valid point to raise and had it been Cameron on the receiving end I just cannot see you all ignoring it. NuLab and you Labour luvvies would have been at it like a pack of hyenas. However, Its what we have come to expect from a washed out government as they try and defend the indefensible. ( e.g.The 'Duracell bunny' Hazel Bliars comments after PMQ.
Just admit it it was a stonking great shot delivered with precision as Brown though he had the upper hand and then got hit with a bulls eye full on and the only clunking was Browns limp body hitting the canvas.
Sadly the disgraceful actions of the speaker (yet again) saved Brown. Check it out even Brown rises to his feet to continue to answer Cameroon then sits. Camron would have just been thrown to the wolves if it was the other way round.
As someone commented the other day to NuLab apologists" what do Nulab and Brown have to actually do to loose your support, Nuclear war? drown kittens or something?"
Not to worry anyway. On Planet Nulabour inflation is down, crime is down , and we have never had it so good. All we need now is a "pips sqeak" speech and hey we would have gone the full cycle.
Kind Regards
Baron Von RipWinkle De parkbench
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Just an aside, but obviously entirely in context, anyone remember Benjie the Binman?
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168:
Well said Mighty Angela!
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As I've pondered this I draw the conclusion that this is a fuss about nowt unless the letter is proven to have have been obtained by dis-repuatble means. I suspect this is unlikely so the issue will fizzle out.
I also think it points to Brown's lack of "street fighting" ability.
The ideal response is the one suggested by Nick - "I did whatever was required to protect the safety of the British people". Mrs Thatcher and Tony Blair would have reacted like this instinctively. A bad session for Gordon. In the grand scheme of things though, already yesterday's fish and chip paper.
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#173 peteholly: "The ideal response is the one suggested by Nick - "I did whatever was required to protect the safety of the British people". "
Surely the ideal response was to tell the truth? Unless there is evidence to the contrary, I think you have to accept his 'No' as the truth don't you?
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I find it interesting that the most abusive posters here are Labour suporters but then what do you expect from such a bullying party?
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Jimbrant - from my perspective Gordon is blessed with many great qualities. I believe in the guy and would pick him over Cameron any day of the week. I just think that he chose the wrong tactic.
As for the "truth" I suspect the whips office did promise a number of things to get the vote through. If that is what was required then so be it. I don't think the electorate will be excited by this revelation but would have had more empathy for Gordon if he had taken the approach suggested by Nick.
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jimbrant @174 wrote:
"Unless there is evidence to the contrary, I think you have to accept his [Brown's] 'No' as the truth don't you?"
No. Brown is a liar. His 'Brownies' are legion - and amply documented.
Blair was a liar too. But at least he had ability, wit and smarmy charm that managed to diffuse his many crimes and misdemeanours.
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#177 ScepticMax: Right. Now I understand. Brown is guilty, therefore he must have lied.
Don't you think you might perhaps have got this the wrong way round? Why not try just occasionally to argue sensibly, rather than making tendentious statements of your opinions as if they were facts?
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I will try to be politically correct for the more sensitive types who might be upset.
Cameron and his cronies look and act like a bunch of obnoxious schoolboys, and should not be trusted to run anything more than a tuck shop.
I think the victimisation of the differently classed is a terrible thing.
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GB may well have been telling the truth re the Keith Vaz letter but as Nick Robinson himself said on the BBC Daily Politics show all Governments do deals on legislation they are desperate to put on The Statute books and where the vote is expected to be extremely close. He would have ben better off just admitting that he offered a few sweeteners and and backing it up by stating that he thought the measure was vitally important for the country rather than making a weak attempt to bend the truth.
AS for DC and his 'cronies' being suited to running no more than a school tuck shop where is your evidence? Quote me an appreciable number of examples where this has been the case. Although your views on these blogs started off as fairly mild and very readable you appear to have veered quite alarmingly towards the GA and TV approach which is tends to be based on unsubstantiated verbal abuse.
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jimbrant @178 wrote:
"Don't you think you might perhaps have got this the wrong way round? Why not try just occasionally to argue sensibly, rather than making tendentious statements of your opinions as if they were facts?"
No. I got it right: Brown is a liar with a documented record of dozens of lies, fibs, distortions and misinformation.
Apart from the 'no boom and bust' rhetoric of his Chancellorship ("I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the recovery." Gordon Brown, 1997 Budget Statement") and all that it entailed - the miserable results of which we are seeing today - his dissembling really gathered pace with his Premiership starting with the 'general election that never was'.
I could provide dozens of examples from small 'fibs' ("doubling" inheritance tax threshhold for couples - the amount is exactly the same, you just don't need to see a lawyer about it) to gross misrepresentation (The Lisbon Treaty being "substantially different" to the rejected Constitutional Treaty") - though there is probably a website or two dedicated to this litany of falsehoods.
Ask yourself: would you buy a used car from this man?
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The point isn't actually about DC its about the pathetic false victim mentality of Right wing contributors whenever some uses the word toff or eton. They come over all politically correct. Polical correctness when it suits them?, freedom of speech when it suits them?
evidencemightyangela@168, Robinjd@163
I base my schoolboy comment on the abusive way cameron acts in PMQs. I see that as childish. . and they do look like schoolboys you have to admit. as does Jack straw.
Also the claim that the 100 or so conservatives are being bullied and upset by about 4 labour supporters who have the annoying habit of disagreeing with them.
evidence ihatedylan@175
I think if Trudie victoria and Grandantidote concentrated their efforts on fewer posts it would not leave them open to as much of attack from the whinging 'I am always right, My newspaper says so." brigade as they may have to reference back much further. Think also about the need to reply to every insult with another insult as that allows another attack. keep the moral high ground reply to them politely. I think these would also lead to them having nothing to say as they spend most of their time complaining about labour posters. I do not wish to offend you.
Also I have to make sure one person knows that I am still here.
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@179
blah blah Class war blah blah
How about Positive discrimination against white males as advocated by Harriot Harmful.
Is this OK?
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I try very hard not to reply to postings which rather than disagreeing with my political views, set out to insult me and make accusations of a personal nature. These are foolish insults, and reveal a spiteful and frustrated nature on the part of the writers. Sometimes, for I'm only human, I reply in kind, but then I regret it. As a wise friend once told me, "Lie down with dogs and you get up with lice."
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#185 Pot_Kettle
You are right! But frankly, would any red-bloodied man of any colour be sympathetic towards this wretched bureaucrat?
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182:
A most outstandingly patronising, condescending contribition. Congratulations!
I won't rise to the bait but others please feel free to do so!
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speaking of childish.
"@179
blah blah Class war blah blah
How about Positive discrimination against white males as advocated by Harriot Harmful.
Is this OK?"
Care must be taken to avoid positive discrimination turning into discrimination I agree. But I would have put it in a less inflammatory way. each to their own.
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pot_kettle@183
Did you not know that there is a "debate" or a right wing rantathon, as it should be called about sharia law on Have Your Say. Time to open up all your memberships on your preferred tabbed browser and start recommending.
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181. ScepticMax
You missed out the biggest one.
The Dodgy Dossier, ironically formally called Iraq: Its Infrastructure of Concealment, Deception and Intimidation.
Which was used by the government to justify invading Iraq
Much of the content was just copied from the WWW.
Whole sections were repeated verbatim including typos, while amendments were made to sex up the tone "monitoring foreign embassies in Iraq" became "spying on foreign embassies in Iraq", and "aiding opposition groups in hostile regimes" became "supporting terrorist organisations in hostile regimes").
The government told us Sadam could deploy WMD in 45 mins. Funny how we havnt found any in yrs
As Howard famously said we now have a big dossier on NuLabour and we havent had to sex it up!".
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@#187
You miss the point sir.
The second word in Positive discrimination is discrimination. Far from turning into it, it is it from the start.
But then we should expect no less from the party that brought us all women candidate lists until one of there own bit them and took them to court.
Do you also defend the position on expenses that was taken last night.
I would be interested how your debating skills manage with the fact that 86% of those that voted to keep the status quo of opaque ACA's were Labour MP's.
Lets face it the position is indefensable.
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#181 ScepticMax: But I don't see any evidence of lies in what you say.
no boom and bust?- that is what he has delivered. You have to distinguish between home-grown 'bust' and the impact of global factors that neither he nor anyone else could control.
house prices - that was a declaration of intention that he couldn't achieve, not a lie.
general election - when did he ever say there was going to be one? where is the lie?
inheritance tax - the allowance was effectively doubled for couples without the need for tax avoidance accountants. If it was just what was already in place, why the extra cost?
Lisbon Treaty - it isn't the same as the constitution. It starts out by saying it's not. I have said before that just because the statements "The Lisbon Treaty is the same as the Constitution" and "The Lisbon Treaty is not the same as the Constitution" are more than 90% identical does not mean that they have the same meaning.
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#189 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2: I don't know what sort of expert you are in these matters, but perhaps I could remind you of the comments of the UK expert on chemical wmd (Mr A in the Hutton Inquiry):
Mr A, Counter Proliferation Arms Control Department
"Q. What was Dr Kelly's attitude to the dossier, apart from
those specific comments that you have already
identified?
A. Both of us believed that if you took the dossier as
a whole it was a reasonable and accurate reflection of
the intelligence that we had available to us at that
time."
Kelly of course was the expert on biological wmd. And he argued strongly in favour of the action against Iraq.
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jimbrant @191:
You reply like a lawyer. Not a compliment.
Quick answers 'cos I can't tarry:
1. Global factors exacerbated by the fact that Brown squandered didn't make provisions for a rainy day (so much for prudence).
2. A broken promise is as bad as a lie - if not worse. Why make promises you know you can't keep.
3. He denied that the polls were a factor in not calling the GE.
4. It was presented (like many other re-hashes) as a 'new initiative'.
5. Ask 99% of senior politicians and officials in the EU. Better still, check the internet for their statements. (Open Europe have a dedicated webpage).
etc. Etc - ad nauseum.
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191jimbrant
Jim
As far as the LT goes Ive yet to hear from anyone who has got past page 24 Even MPs who are charged with Mega Maga decision making have not read it. Too busy at John Lewis I guess.
However, Valery Giscard d'Estaing a leading architect of the constitution.
Said – “The new EU Reform Treaty is effectively the same as the constitution it was designed to replace. The treaty differs from the abandoned constitution in "approach rather than content" Other EU leaders have said the same thing.
He also said that the treaty is impenetrable for the public. Most say its impenetrable for anyone other than lawyers.
Thatll do for me.
Only our government maintain its drastically different. If it was they would explain how and give us a vote on it.
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pot_kettle@190
The idea was not the government telling companies to positively discriminate. It was saying if you had 2 candidates and 1 was a woman. and you decided you wanted for reasons of diversity employ the woman. That would be OK. It has been said they do that already though.
There is no evidence that companies will be predjudiced towards women and ethnic minorities. So your logic on this occasion is flawed.
The all women cabinet lists you said labour used. I vaguely remember Cameron doing the same thing. A-lists I think they were called. Women and ethnic minority shortlists. If I am correct and you are a conservative voter your name seems most apt.
You are correct Government imposing positive discrimination would lead to the problem being solved for women and ethnic minorities but switched to white males. But that isn't what the government was suggesting.
Debating skills? Not really, Just passing on a few thoughts thats all, no agenda. This is a learning process for me I am not a writer or member of a debating society. I have written angry comments and then felt embarressed by them later. As I suppose everybody here has.
I thought it would be a good idea to disarm some of the nastier windup merchants that frequent this site and others. Who seem to bother TV and GA so much.
No I don't approve of the expenses situation, but you could say that Labour MPs mostly live further away than Conservatives and may have a better reason for wanting to keep the expenses. As the Conservatives would want the pay rise.
I don't consider myself to be labour by the way.
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192. jimbrant
No expert here Jim
But I do know this.
If I were PM and had asked for a report on a security situation. I would not let my chief Spin doctor demand any changes to it before it was published.
If the document was then intended to be used as evidence in order to persuade parliament to vote for war. I would have the said document checked until it looked as worn as a copy of Magna Carta.
Blair had an agenda from the start and commissioned a report to add credibility to it. How else can you explain the strengthen the tone of the old text found on the web.
As Chirac said “these experts intoxicate each other"
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#193 ScepticMax: So no lies then. Just assumptions on your part and things on which you disagree with him.
"You reply like a lawyer" - you mean I use, and ask for, evidence? A stinging accusation indeed!
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#196 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2: "No expert here Jim"
No indeed. But perfectly willing to think you know (or knew) better than those who are (or were).
I would ask you for your evidence for your claim that Blair let his "chief Spin doctor demand any changes", but I won't because there isn't any.
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so I'm a tory am I?
are you a Martha or a Mary? Complitative or active life?
Complitative: I've contributed articals to various Leftie/ Anarchist publications and devised workshops in how to use Philisophical/ Theoretical tools in the cause of Redical Gender Theory.
Active: I've been involved in Grass Roots activism for years favoring Feminist groups and Queer activism. I helped orginise a Women Only space at the G8 protests when there where over in these parts and spend most of the time I'm not working doing comunity work.
Yea I'm a Tory...
For the nastylabourits here anything that's not probroon is Fachist.
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jimbrant@197: A lawyer because you argue your brief on behalf of your client in spite of the evidence.
Gordon Brown's own people have given sufficient evidence against him already. I'm just pointing it out from time to time.
Brown and NuLabour supporters are trying to defend the indefensible and justify the unjustifiable.
If a lawyer defends someone he/she knows to be guilty - that's OK: it's a job and someone's got to do it.
If you're not being paid for your advocacy of Brown and Nulabour, then you have no excuse for holding the positions you do other than ignorance, poor judgement or malice.
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#200 ScepticMax: " A lawyer because you argue your brief on behalf of your client in spite of the evidence."
Very good SM!! Not true, but very good and it made me smile.
"you have no excuse for holding the positions you do other than ignorance, poor judgement or malice."
But that is not so good. If in doubt resort to name calling, I suppose. One day you may come to realise that people can hold opinions that differ from yours for reasons other than 'ignorance, poor judgement, or malice'.
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201:
a fine judgment to be made on thid board when anyone who disagrees with the probroons here is guilty of everything including leaving greesy plates in the sink overnight
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jimbrant @201 - Apologies - I didn't intend to insult you. Without wishing to offend, I cannot honestly think of a fourth option (other than, as stated, professional obligation).
All misguided and/or wrong philosophical, social and/or political opinions (as opposed to matters of taste) held by honest, good, well-intentioned people remain, nonetheless, misguided and/or wrong. It is fair to consider them as resulting from 'poor judgement'.
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#203 ScepticMax: Apology accepted.
The problem is that you appear to claim to KNOW that my opinions are "misguided and/or wrong", but actually what you have is not knowledge but an opinion of your own. I happen to have a different view of a number (I think probably most, but not all) of the things for which you want to criticise Brown. I can very willingly accept that my opinions may be wrong, and it worries me when I come across people who are not willing to make the same concession.
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204:
This criticism could well apply to many bloggers on all sides of the political divide on this forum. It spoils the debate and leads to bad feeling all round.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Labour promise=Oxymoron
unless of course there is a firm date attached...eg. 2015 or 2050.
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I think this blog is a waste of time. I got about six very innocent, innocous messages taken off by the moderators.
Some people write reams which are too long to read. They should be restricted to a certain amount of words as on other sites.
My two or three liners got taken off!
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Nick - What's happening at the BBC? There was hardly any political news (except for the US elections) on the Breakfast programme this morning, although quite a lot of air time was given over to a long report about the size and shape of vegetables! What about Glenrothes?
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