Testing the waters
Extraordinary, quite extraordinary. Anyone listening to David Miliband taking phone calls on Radio 2's Jeremy Vine show could be in no doubt.
This is a man testing the waters for a leadership bid and a man simply unprepared to come to the defence of a beleaguered prime minister.
Even when listeners poured abuse on Gordon Brown the most the foreign secretary could bring himself to say was that he was a prime minister in difficult times, that he had huge experience and good strong values - not exactly the warmest endorsement of the man who leads his party.
What's more, when listeners said how much they liked him he merely giggled and made jokes that these were not his friends or his mum who'd been paid to ring up - in other words he took all the praise and did nothing to deflect the abuse headed in Mr Brown's direction.
Whatever David Miliband's original intention was he has now begun a process where the country and his party will begin to judge whether he is a good replacement for Gordon Brown. It won't be long until some newspaper commissions a poll as to whether voters prefer him to Mr Brown.
If there is a Miliband poll bounce which is quite likely given the favourable publicity he's had and the extraordinary unpopularity of the prime minister, Labour MPs will begin to assess whether he's the man who might save their skins. In other words this will produce a momentum of its own.
Many cards remain, of course, in the prime minister's hands. On returning from holiday he could demote Mr Miliband, he could give him the poison chalice of the chancellor's job, or he might produce a new policy plan to regain the political initiative. However he will do so against the background in which for the first time since he faced Tony Blair, a genuine rival has emerged.
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God help us if he gets the top job
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Promotion to chancellor? Surely FCO and Treasury are nominally equal?
And under this control freak PM, the position of CotE is greatly devalued anyway
Besides, Gutless Gordon isn't well known for subtle political manoeuvres - he'sthe clunking big fist, remember?
He'd sack Millie long before he (even fraudulently) promoted him
The really interesting point is that you tacitly acknowledge that the future leadership of the current (mis)ruling party is in the hands of the Editors (and hence their proprietors) when you say "It won't be long until some newspaper commissions a poll..."
Aren't the Labour Party capable of conducting such a poll themselves?
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A smiley face won't undo 11 years of gorging at the trough.
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Interesting that 2 back bench MPs have called for him to be sacked today.
The phoney war has begun. Expect lots of spin from both venegeful Blairites in support of Milliband and Brown supporters having a go at him.
David Cameron must be loving this!
An interesting piece by George Osborne in the Sun today. Perhaps even Rupert Murdoch is looking to hedge his bets?
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Miliband would be a poor leader of the party ... he's a lightweight who has already been over promoted.
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Nick
Bob Marshall-Andrews has accused David Miliband of duplicitous behaviour.
A duplicitous Government Minister ? A duplicitous Blairite ? A duplicitous MP ?
Surely not ?
And to behave in such a way against Gordon Brown after all his loyal and in no way duplicitous behaviour to Tony Blair ?
Surely not ?
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David miliband needs to remember that the electrorate have traditionally been unkind to back stabbers.
he also needs to remember that the publichold politicians generally in low esteem, a bitter leadership campaign will not help him win an election.
a choice between Milliband or cameron would truely be Hobsons choice and I would consider seriously a vote for independence.
We seem to be at a very low ebb in the UK for good leaders
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The media is just wringing this issue to death. Miliband's comment and the motives he explained for making it stacked up. There's nothing to see here.
The real issue is that Gordon Brown settles into his role as Prime Minister, Labour MP's get on with their job, and the country is seen to be governed for the benefit of the people.
The media just want headlines so are fueling a fake leadership bid like they fueled the fake election. What would follow afterwards, hack the "winner" down?
I quit watching broadcast TV and am weaning myself off the media. It's just full of dreg and life is short. Seriously, guys. Find something else to write about.
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Remember how happy Gordon was when he was knifing Tony in the back?
From Nick's blog at the time:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5326064.stm
Gordon doesn't look quite so happy these days.
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The inevitable leadership challenge is just starting to emerge from the shadows. Let the backstabbing begin!
But what is really amusing is the level of Milibland's delusion in that he thinks the Labour party can be saved. Nobody wants centralisation or high taxes which are wasted or 1162 useless quangos (ie 100 billion pound black hole) or ID cards or to be spied upon etc etc etc OK?
Soon this shower will want to tattoo us from birth. We must stop them before they can do any more damage!
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Damn you Beeb, stop censoring me! I pay your licence fee damn it!
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I'll tell you what though, I think Milliband has always had this in mind. There's just something about him that makes me cringe. A bit too much like Blair. I'm not a fan of Gordonbennet but I trust Milliband even less. There's a 'creepyness' about him, you know, like somehow he sort of believes his own publicity about is braininess. Also, watching him go-on about his 'lack of intentions' towards the leadership, he looked uncomfortable and juvenile. if he's the best of the bunch right now then god help them, they're definitely well and truly 'bleeped' .
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When will Purnell and co "announce" they're in the running too? Surely we can't just have just Milliband in the frame? One coronation was quite enough.
And another point. Rather than Gordon 'Control Freak' Brown being immune to a coup because Parliament is in recess, we instead have a state of affairs in which he is utterly powerless to influence matters.
Welcome to our world Mr Brown.
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re: 13
I agree Dr. Gloom. He reminds me of a toadyish butler who helps himself to the master's whisky. Hang on... that also happens to be a perfect analogy for what he's doing!
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Almost as hilarious as Charles's postings is the fact that Milliband can't seem to look anyone in the eye when answering a question...and you know what they say about poor eye contact.
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Justin Webb has written on his American blog today that everyone in Britain is drunk -and if you look at our politicians you begin to understand why !
David Miliband would be on a hiding to nothing if he were to try and lead what has become a deeply riven and dead-eyed Labour Government.
And the last thing that David Cameron should be wanting to do is win the next election which will bring it a host of insurmountable problems which will finish him off.
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He will not save the labour party. They are finished under ANY of their corrupt arrogant lying MP's.
If he was to become labour leader, no doubt the media again will faithfully rally round him and give him all the good publicity that they can muster, as they did with Brown, until the backlash from a public tired of Labours lies, mendacity, corruption and sheer malevolence forced a more balanced view from the media. We will NOT put up with being lied to by the media ANY MORE!
The media are woefully behind public opinion as we chat more and more on-line and share true, verifiable examples of corruption and lies and secret deals and conspiracies to pervert justice that the mainstream media will not dare touch. people that know about it, blog about it.
We also know about the secret societies and think tanks that PUSH the agenda. We also know which media owners and shareholders are in these "formerly" secret societies and think tanks. Unlike the mainstream media, we CAN connect the dots. we can research the history of these organisations and map the ascent to power of the player's today. we can cross reference connective organisations and link from leaks on the inside, what globalist agendas they serve.
WE KNOW THE PLANS!
In light of this we, the public, are setting our own agenda that the media is increasing incapable of keeping up with.
I don't know how many times I have been discussing with sources some official corruption or conspiracy or other, only for it to be "exposed" in the media months or often years later as "news"
The conspiracy to invade Iraq and blame WMD regardless of the known fact that Saddam HAD disarmed and they conspired to fix the intelligence around the policy. being one such example. The media after many years are only just now beginning to admit that it was all a lie. That not only did WMD not exist, but that Blair and Bush HAD been briefed by intelligence officials telling them so.
The labour party are puppets and we are cutting their strings. After they are destroyed, we will cut the tory's strings.
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Pressing that little button again Charles??? My we are sensitive aren't we?
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If Millhouse...sorry Milliband becomes PM then surely a General Election would have to be called. That would be the only good thing to come out of this god awful mess the Labour party have got us all in. Maybe we could then wave goodbye to this sham of a Government.
If an election isn't called then Labour will only prove that they are in it for themselves and don't care one bit for the rest of us.
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No wonder the Guardian likes Labour so much:
http://www.order-order.com/2008/07/disquiet-grows-about-hypocritical.html
For shame.
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Milliband has more vision in his little finger than Gordon Brown, as his article demonstrates. And he can communicate with ordinary people which Brown sadly can't . He would be an excellent replacement, and I doubt if he'll lose much sleep over criticism by the ridiculous Marshall-Andrews.
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David Miliband is simply stating the obviuos. The Labour hierarchy keep going on about the need to listen to the electorate, but the people have been speaking loud and clear going by the recent election results. Better a young ambitious politician than a turncoat who never got elected by anyone to govern the party and the country by default. Most politicians are in it for the glory, but few have any guts to go with their convictions. If Brown is so sure about his mandate, why not have a leadership contest, and silence the doubters once and for all, should he win such a contest. Brown is the biggest back stabber of them all, and really ought to be the last to expect the party to rally round his leadership. What goes round always comes around. The problem is with Brown, and not the vultures who always circle around a wounded and in this case clearly ineffective P.M. I say more power to David Miliband for setting his stall early, instead of whispering in the shadows like most of the gutless senior politicians in the labour party.
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You said it yourself Nick - he is 'testing the waters'. In doing so, he shows himself to be indecisive. If he'd stripped off and dived right in, he may have scored points for guts, if not for judgment.
As it is, he has shown himself in his true colours - good brain, faint heart, no stomach.
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Power to the ppl 16;
Ooooo, you just sent a shiver down my spine. Remains of the day, anyone.
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13 doctor-gloom
Yes, he is creepy and the juvenile aspect of him I've written about in numerous blogs. Only today, I had one removed as it was too explicit for the censors.
power_to_the-ppl # 12 I concur with you, we pay their salaries after all, and surely piper should play the tune (or whatever)
Actually I think this new blog, thread, whatever, is superfluous. Most of us have already agreed that Milliband, milipede, milisnake, etc. is a nasty little boy who has the misfortune of having a rather peculiar moustache . What is the point of having another board where we can express our scorn, becoming nastier and nastier. For once I almost agree with that zen nerd who rambles on and on. He wrote that its better to demonstrate for something you believe in, rather than what you are against. He quoted Mother Teresa, so he can't be an absolute plonker. Let's have a new thread on what would help the dire situation we are all in, and who could take over.
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After all those years of stabbing Blair in the back, someone's being disloyal to Gordon? Talking about the pot calling the kettle Brown.
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Broon and Milipede: Tweedledee and Tweedledum. No, that's Millipede and his brother Ed. Er, or is that Balls?
Simple really:
Millipede wants the top job, but hasn't go the Yvette Cooper's husband to say so out loud like a man.
Brown's got the top job, but isn't up to it: having spent the last ten years courting the bride he now finds that the essential equipment has atrophied (assuming it was there in the first place).
Milipede - outside of the Westminster bubble - is as despised as Brown. Brown at least had the image of gravitas (never mind that grumpy, bullying, brooding was mistaken for serious ability). Milipede is, in the eyes of the public, a typical New Labour construct: all political deviousness and absolutely no experience of the real world. It's hard to think of someone less appropriate to represent the interests and aspirations of the British people. (Except, of course, all the other wads of used tissue paper that call themselves a Cabinet).
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What with Brown behaving like Mr Bean we now have a challenge from Sillyband who not only acts like Mr Bean but looks like him too. He lacks even the gravitas to grow propper whiskers and can only manage bum fluf on his top lip. The words statesman and labour are opposits in political jargon. God help us, we are doomed
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Nick
The question is, should we trust him? He's an ambitious politician. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and you're covered in duck poo, it's probably a duck.
I for one, having supported Labour until the late 1990s when the true colours of Blair and co. became evident (remember Harriet Harman and benefits for single mothers?), won't be sorry if (when?) the Labour Party as it now is collapses - if I wanted a Tory government I'd have voted for one. And anyway Milliband seems to be to the right of Cameron.
PS.
It's all part of the metrication process. As Andy Hamilton pointed out on HIGNFY a while ago, we used to have a Foot now it's a Milliband. I think a Milliband is a tenth of a Militant.
And there's a Labour MP called Stephen Pound. I hope there's no-one called Kilo standing in his constituency.
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Whilst all very exciting to see what new catastrophe the Labout party can unleash upon itself, you seriously have a choice between a rat-faced, insincere, rather bland and immature ghost of Tony Blair in his uni days from Milliband or the incredibly bland, bullying and charmless Gordon.
Cameron, you've got my vote...
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But what does Miliband actually believe in?
Apart from looking like the sort of earnest sixth-former who asks clever questions, what does he bring to the table which Gordon Brown does not? It certainly isn't experience.
Are we, once again, going to have foisted on us another Prime Minister whose only qualification for the job is a boundless ego and an ambition to match?
Sorry, this is not politics: it is soap opera.
The country is in pain and its getting worse. The last thing we need at this juncture is a grinning, simpering oaf, however young and pretty he might wish us to think he is.
This is just not good enough. The British people deserve some respect!
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David Miliband could certainly do no worse than Brown, if you really come to think of it. Brown is an over-blown bank manager, ill suited to the snake charmer's post of P.M.
Hope he stays and gets blown away at the next general elections.
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It must be galling for Mr Brown after so many years imagining that he could do a better job than Tony, that he now has the job and is proving so absolutely useless. He clearly works better in the background away from the full glare of the media which tends to expose his scheming, obsessive and wholly unpleasant nature for what it is.
This sideshow is unlikely to make the electorate forget the years of stealth taxes, ridiculous spending, unreformed immigration and welfare, blinkered fascination with testing and league tables, lies lies and more lies.
Its not that Cameron and the Conservatives are so much better, its the way that Labour have insincerely abused their power and the democratic process of this country and inserted a PM in charge who most of the country would not vote for if you paid them.
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Gent's what truely makes me smile is that your debating this so seriously.
It doesn't matter who does what from which party. None of them listen to us, its a pointless waste of time.
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These comments would be alot better if they were anonymous. It would get rid of the self-impotant cretins bickering!
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CUJmee 24:
Milliband can communicate with ordinary people??? Had a bad night? Too much pop? Milliband can barely communicate with his own party. Is he really your best shot for the man of the people award? Pheeeweee talk about alternative comedy.
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I have to say that the hypocrisy of the Brownites astounds me. Disloyalty? And of course, Gordon Brown and his minions like Nick Brown and Ed Balls never did anything to undermine Tony Blair's leadership when he was Prime Minister, did they? But now that their lord and master's getting a taste of his own medicine, they can't stop squealing like stuck pigs.
Also, it's a bit rich for life members of the awkward squad like Marshall-Andrews and Geraldine Smith (nonentities in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones, Ms. Smith) to come out and start whining about integrity. Again, I can't recall either of these two heavyweight giants of British politics ever once condemning the blatant efforts by Brown and his munchkins to undermine Tony Blair's leadership for the better part of ten years.
So, Miliband's ambitious to be Prime Minister? How dare he? Doesn't he know that only Gordon Brown has the God-given right to reside at Number 10? Personally, I think that wanting to lead the Labour Party when it's in such a hole displays, if anything, a profound lack of ambition. It's a bit like staging a mutiny aboard the Titanic just as the iceberg starts to loom off the starboard bow.
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"If there is a Miliband poll bounce", then he would do well to remember that there was a Brown bounce this time last year when Gordon first took over. That turned out to be a dead cat bounce.
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It would be a shame if the electorate didn't get to tell Gordon Brown directly at the next election how much they abhor him, so with that in mind, I hope he sticks around and continues to cling to the power he so obviously craves to the exclusion of the best interests of the country. Milliband should bide his time, he's perceived as far too young and inexperienced for the job at the moment, though this might change in the future.
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I am a big david miliband fan and i hope he gets the top job! Mr Miliband rocks!=)
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I'd guess that all that's holding most Labour MPs from trying to oust Brown is that whatever they do now they're going to get a hammering at the next election.Any new leader would have a very short career and go down in history as the man who lost Labour power,denying Brown that well-deserved title.
The Premiership right now is a poisoned chalice,no sensible Labour M.P. would want it as a gift.If the economy was sound and Brown's unpopularity and incompetence were the only issues there would have been a stampede by now to take his job.As it is I suspect most are happy,or at least as happy as they can be in the current ****storm Labour finds itself in,to plot and plan what happens after the next General Election when they'll kick Brown out within days.Until then they'll sit back and let him take the flak from the media and an increasingly irate public.
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22 Andyclure
Ha! So iff Milliband is Mill House. Who does that make Gordon Brown?
I think Ed Balls has to be Smithers.
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The Times have an interesting story re Milliband ready to challenge.
tinyurl.com/6ehytn
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Poor GB, be careful what you wish for, should have been said to him when he finally wrestled the job away from TB.
Things can only get better with Millibrand (ie can't get any worse). At worst he gets to be leader of HM opposition and probably saves his seat at the next general election.
Oh how cynical.
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People talk about a politician that you can trust. The two do not go hand in hand, a bit like looking for a whore that is faithful.
Get real, we want politicians who have the guts to go with their convictions.
Ambition is the name of the game. David Miliband should be applauded, I think he's playing the game like a pro.
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28 phoenixarisen:
You've sussed him out all right, what you've been on about has just hit me today. Somehow I just had this 'gut reaction' to the bloke.
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One way or another, Brown is going to lose a popularity contest. If he can accept this fact, he may be sensible enough to call an election that will spite Miliband AND leave the Tories with a country in recession.
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Did Mr Miliband say whether he is a Marxist on the phone-in?
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# 9
Charles E
I read somewhere that the essence of Zen is attempting to understand the meaning of life directly, without being misled by logical thought, or language.
Does that mean that you seek to lead us onto the right path by illogical thought and language ? Or is that too logical ?
Whatever - I fear I live on a lower plane than you and so, as you wean yourself off the media, I'll wean myself off your erudite contribtuions. It was either that or change my name to confused.com.
By the way, is this blog part of the media off of which you intend to wean yourself - or is that a logical and therefore misleading train of thought.
I do allow for the possibilty that you are less Zen philosophying and more having fun as a wind up merchant. No matter - just a different reason to wean myself off.
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I think David Miliband will make a good leader of the labour party at some point. Just now I think he lacks the patience to wait and pick up the pieces of whats left of Labour after the next election, regardless of leader.
This way he'll just be a another William Hague who went for it too early. Political cycles dictate a good time in the wilderness after such a botch-up of government.
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I've just read that Bob Marshall-Andrews called David Miliband duplicitous. Is this the same man who spent his entire time undermining Tony Blair and recently shared a platform with David Davis, a right wing Tory MP?
He believes we should stand by Brown and if he leads Labour to defeat so be it. With a majority of some 200 he will lose his seat anyway but, I for one, do not wish to see a Tory government elected. If that can be avoided with a new leader so be it, and as quickly as possible please.
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Never said everything was perfect but the 100% everything is wrong attitude is loop-de-loop. The media itself has admitted that some stories are heavily edited to present the most negative view, and the general wave of coverage is almost pure cruelty. I quit paying much attention when that happens.
Nick must be privately devastated that his blog on Milibands comment didn't fill up with 1001 screaming voters. That's what normally happens when he milks a situation and it's linked on the front page. It didn't happen this time around. I think, he's severely misjudged this one.
Looking forward, I'm hoping the government will do more to trim the power of big companies and do away with the low wage economy. There's certainly more it can do to develop a more confident and sociable culture that has a longer term view. Plus, there's a whole stack of other stuff I could list but this topic really isn't the place for it.
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I think Millie's going to lose his job over this and won't be back until after Brown has lost the next general election by a landslide to Cameron. This will be because he lacks the conviction of his loudly whispered opinions and instead prefers to giggle his way through interviews, which comes across as immature and inappropriate. Show some guts man and you might get somewhere.
Hopefully after the demise of Brown, we'll see the end of all his gravy-train chums too like Ed Balls. What a truly awful example of 'jobs for the boys' when the man is clearly woefully under qualified for his made up job and is about as liked by the general public as Herpes. He has something in common with his boss then.
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I am finding it very worrying and even tragic that so many people are discussing a change of Prime Minister WITHOUT ANY PUBLIC CONSENT as if it is a normal run-of-the-mill action. Rarely, when a PM has come to the end of a long period of service, or dies, then they can be replaced by party election, mid term, without a general election. That is a standard precedent. But twice inside a year? Purely because of political weakeness, fear, and knee-jerk panic? NO WAY!
I think it is utterly and completely unforgivable that Milliband would even consider trying to become PM without a general election.
I also find it utterly unforgivable and disgusting that the BBC, "that bastion of our establishment" should be encouraging the complete disenfranchisement of the entire electorate in pushing a non-entity into a non event to help out a non electable labour party.
Shame on Milliband and Shame on the media.
I cannot believe that people are actually saying, oh well I would prefer Milliband to Brown, as if the imposition of a Prime Minister is nothing to do with the public.
The labour party are extracting the urine and are treating all the people and organistations of the UK with complete and utter contempt. HOW DARE THEY!!!
What was it one other poster was saying about being able to petition Her Majesty the Queen to dissolve parliament?
Is that legal and if so, How do we do it?
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Time for some Real, Clear Politics, Nick.
Miliband is the heir to Blair and the Party and voters don't like him.
The real battle is between New Labour and True Labour.
You can read my analysis here:
http://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/new-labour-v-true-labour-battle-begins.html
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Choo choo! Here comes the gravy train! All aboard, next stop Westminster!
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oldnat @46,
Thanks for the steer - very intriguing!!!
Lucky Indians! How do we get rid of him? (and all his colleagues, too).
If this is true, it looks like the walls are crumbling...
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F1onIce: "Ambition is the name of the game. David Miliband should be applauded, I think he's playing the game like a pro."
No he isn't. He is playing like a greedy, arrogant impetuous schoolchild.
If he really was playing it liike a pro, he would have manipulated a stalking horse candidate to come forward, force an election and then step in to unite the party under new inclusive leadership.
The way he has "tested the water" is a blatant, egotistical, cowardly and BADLY mis-judged attempt to claim the labour crown.
He really is a typical nulabour minister, completely incompetent!
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Of course, the Times story may be exactly the opposite of what they assume.
Maybe Brown phoned him up and told him he's going to be sacked.
No, journalists don't get things wrong do they?
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"I think David Miliband will make a good leader of the labour party at some point."
I agree, although I suspect for different reasons.
A Miliband-led Labour party would actually make Cameron look substantial, the sort of task that would have had Hercules himself scurrying back to Augeas' stables hollering for mercy.
The Tories could stick a clone of Goering, in complete tranny gear and singing 'Hey Big Spender', in the position of leader and still beat Miliband without breaking into a sweat.
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"I am a big david miliband fan and i hope he gets the top job! Mr Miliband rocks!=)"
You love him soooooo much that you cannot even spell his name???
Or is this another David Miliband that is a rock star that I haven't heard of?
I am glad that you like him, because you probably haven't the intellect to find your way to a polling station.
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re: 59
LOL
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58 - purpleDogzzz
It was me. Certainly it's legal and I believe I am right in saying that any citizen can initiate the process. I could almost certainly come up with a correct form of words with a bit of thought.
What I don't know is the position with regard to online petitions and the validity of electronic signitures. Perhaps someone can help?
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Frank Castle @ 59:
Utterly gross, but very very very funny!!!
What an accurate description of a Milliband.
ROFLMFAO!!!! (to use the txt version)
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@60, theorangeparty
True Labour is the solution?
Wasn't that tried in the 70's and 80's and was such an abysmal failure the Tories had close to two decades in power? Inflation, strikes... Yeah, I'm sure the nation will stick an X in the box for those glory days.
There was a reason Thatcher won 3 election, and even Major got one, and its name was True Labour.
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If you want loyalty - get a dog.
This rule seems to be especially true of politics.
No wonder Italian children are required to read 'The Prince' as part of their education.
Good preparation for 'real life'.
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So the dye is cast then, the election will be next year. I expect that it will be May. Gordon will not go to the country in an effort to put an end to the disent because he is unlikly to be re-elected, he will get a hard time at the conference later this year and a candidate may come forward although it is difficult to see who would want the job knowing that they are going to lead the oposition for at least 5 years. All long term governments inplode after they have been in power to long. Labour have lost the confidence of the people and will pay the price but that is not a recommendation that the conservatives will be any better. I really thought that labour called the last election with the intention of loosing it because it was obvious that the whole thing was about to come unglued and that could have happened on a conservative watch.
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#26: excellent analysis, I agree with every word except two: those being "good brain". Miliband doesn't really have much of a brain, he just appears that way because you see him in comparison with the rest of the cabinet.
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Horaah! At last the chase is on! Even though it is Milly with an early showing at the front. Expect the others along shortly.
It is rather scary though that all of this caffufle is about the job of PM. What happenned to the electorate having a voice?
OK here is what i think should happen. Milly gets the job. Calls an election in October. Loses. Gets back in in 5 years after learning the ropes and how to shave.
Was beginning to think that between now and the Olympics that there will be little sport on the TV. Excellent!
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DM or GB?
Just a story being blown up by the media to boost political has been book sales post 2010.
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If Gordon decides not to sack Miliband
Once again, he'll be showing us his lily hand
Unless he's incisive
And the outcome decisive
We'll know he's still living in dilly land!
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@ 68 threnodio
I don't care if it has to be online or offline, I just want to get the process started!
The Government are not governing at all now (actually that is an improvement, but it risks global trade) This counry needs effective Government and labour's internal civil war is actually harmful to British interests internationally.
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80% + of the population do not care if it is new labour or true labour. If it has ANY labour label it will be rejected completely.
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Milliband is unelectable - he has the slightly repellant smug nature shared by the likes of Mandelson and Portillo, Baker and Parkinson - people will never trust him.
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As has been mentioned above the Labour Party are destined for defeat at the next general election regardless of which arrogant and delusional clone they choose to lead them.
Which begs the question: how intelligent actually is David Miliband?
Even if he were to win a leadership election he would have one month maximum before being forced into a general election which he would subsequently lose terribly. The only thing he would have achieved in the process is confirming in most people's mind what a self-absorbed, empty husk of a politician he is with no greater purpose than to mimic Tony Blair as closely as possible.
Not very intelligent.
I'd rather see Brown reap what he has sown both at the Treasury and now as Prime Minister. Nothing shall be give me greater pleasure than seeing that disturbing half smile, half smirk wiped off his face.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#71 - JohnConstable wrote:
'If you want loyalty - get a dog.'
I hope that is not an ungentlemanly swipe at Harperson.
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leadieri @79,
I wish you were right. But alas, Blair also had a "repellant smug nature and he got elected - 3 times.
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purpleDogzzz, I hear you loud and clear. David Miliband has said a lot by saying nothing. Waiting for a stalking horse is all well and good, but at his age, he's most likely to be over looked when it's all said and done. Remember Tarzan? What good did the stalking horse do for him?
Deep down I suspect he's a mole from the Blair camp. A sleeper carefully positioned.
I applaud him for stoking the fire under the feet of the turncoat that is Brown, cause none of the Labour seniors have the guts to organise anything, never mind a stalking horse.
I just love the fact that Brown is getting a taste of his own medicine.
At least David Miliband has not been chewing his fingers for a decade while plotting to get his hands on the keys of No10.
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This is a cruel, Media-driven witchhunt! I can't believe how rude the press were to hijack a foreign office press conference with the Italian foreign minister to embarrass and try to entrap David Miliband yesterday.
I don't need to read between the lines to see that you are just trying to build him up, just so that you can knock him down again. And if he won't play your silly little game, you'll just make sure that he loses his job instead! And it doesn't matter how many times he says "no" - you will always claim that he really means "yes". I've seen the press do this so many times before...
David Miliband may well be a Labour leadership candidate in the future, but his Guardian article certainly did not indicate that he wishes to be one now, or in the near future.
LEAVE THE POOR BOY ALONE and let him get on with his job.
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David Wright Miliband (born 15 July 1965); close inspection will confirm that there is only one 'L' in the spelling of Miliband.
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It was always going to happen, you look at Miliband and he clearly has good leadership qualities, the only prominent member of Labour I can think of with a decent chance - personally I expected him to wait til Brown fell and he rebuilt the party in opposition, as labour are now unlikely to win anything with or without brown - but from his point of view I guess he has to put himself out there and try to avoid anything that will kill him during the next few months/years of labour's government, a bit risky I think, but he's Labour's best chance, even though personally I want to see them put back in the wilderness for quite a while
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I hope that Mr Brown does sack Mr Milliband and send the party into further chaos. If he does, I for one will happily vote for Mr Milliband to lead the country!
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I hope that Mr Brown does sack Mr Miliband and send the party into further chaos. If he does, I for one will happily vote for Mr Miliband to lead the country!
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Does it really make any difference who is at the helm of "New Labour"? They are all career politicians, bereft of morals or genuine views on how to take our country forward for the benefit of all. Their main worry is re-election and how much they can get when their snouts are in the trough.
Come back people with genuine convictions and honesty before the country is doomed.
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PurpleDogzzz, I like your comment #20. If anyone wants to think this is just someone's conspiracy theory I can add that I have seen a great deal of evidence of similar things going on with the government/mobile phone industry/mainstream media. All the way down the latest MTHR report which uses illogical arguments on a cobbled together set of half truths to justify saying that no more research should be done on the non thermal causes of biological damage from mobile phone radiation. (If there was no link then why so desperate to avoid research?) Of course all ministers and main stream media quote is the conclusion - for whatever reasons (and these are the reasons that need questioning) they are not motivated to question the logic leading to those conclusions. I doubt that David Milliband will rock the established boat any more than Gordon Brown or David Cameron will. There are too many vested interests at stake to actually come clean about the state of things. Business as usual will remain the state of play until something much bigger than an election takes place.
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@ F1onice, Perhaps Milliband is playing the stalking horse for someone else?
Whoever it is should stop and consider the electorate for a change, or should I say, for the first time.
We should be having a general election, not another undemocratic coup!
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re: 76, saintandscholar
lol very good!
Behind Miliband's back is concealed
The knife he's preparing to wield
Against his old master
(Another PR disaster)
Soon both of their fates will be sealed!
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I sent an email to Mr Miliband in his capacity as the Foreign Secretary not so long ago, but still no reply. Is this abnormal for Foreign Secretaries?
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85: lucibee:
Oh dear have we and the media upset you? 'Leave the poor boy alone'. Nearly had my crying there for a minute. Poor boy: my backside. Look, he's into politics to suck whatever braincells people like you have right out of your head. As far as I'm concerned, if he can't 'take it' he shouldn't 'give it'. Your party is dying. It's typical of an army defeated that they drag mere children out to do battle for them. What a spectacle.
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I for one am looking forward to the 'Miliband bounce', the same way I am looking forward to another 'Brown bounce' and a 'Cameron bounce.'
On the end of a very long rope.
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The right wing hysteria on here today realy does set new standards.
Laughable but scary.
Petitions to the Queen to disolve paliament!! Thats got to be the best, very democratic indeed cos a handfull of cyber-snipers who spend all day crouched over their PCs dreaming of Thatcher's hayday want it that way.
Couldn't some of you say something positive about your own lot, you know, how good a Chancello George will be, that inheritance tax policy will really sort out the economy, something like that?
BTW do any of you lot work? You seem to have a lot of time on your hands?
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I bet Cameron is having a bloody good holiday.
Poor Poor Poor Mrs Brown. I bet shes not.
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95#
Yeah Lucibee, stop trying to spoil their fun, they've got a new victim cornered they need to vent their spleens (again).
All day on their PCs for gods sake with nothing else to do, 1997 to 2008, 11 years of bile and bitterness stored up and they so want a good old Euro-sceptic Tory government to take us back to some utopian England of the past, National Service, the bobby clipping your ear if you were cheeky, grammar schools, a game of Rugger, oh and don't forget to bring back the hunt, capital punishment, the birch and the good old Shilling!
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re: 99
Amen to that ;)
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# 82
I said get a dog - not a bitch.
BTW, Sunday Times Business Editor John Waples collared Miliband at Davos earlier this year and demanded some answers on the non-dom tax.
Miliband bleated 'it's fair' and promptly scuttled away as fast as his legs could carry him.
Very impressive - not.
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97. Eatonrifle
The hounds scent blood and the kill is in sight what do you expect.
Where are the saboteurs today. There isnt even much Zen about today.
In the interests of my liberty and the clear wish to avoid any retroactive legislation I wish to make it clear that at no point, do I or did I in the past agree with, solicit, entice or promote the hunting of politicians or foxes.
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92#
you've had three general elections in the last 11 years, isn't that enough OR do you only respect democracy when you get your own way? A bit like a kid that can't take losing?
The bottom line is this.
We have a Labour Government because they won the last election ang got a five year term. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
Ah well there's always the petition. Good Luck!
You could always put a pair of underpants on your head and a pencil up each nostril.
(I'll let someone else explain if needed)
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101. JohnConstable
ROFL
You have to act fast guys, she want to change the law.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nayrvxBUXEQ
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For those above who label Bob Marshall-Andrews ridiculous or a closet Brownite should take the trouble to glance at his website and especially his 17 July 2007 letter to his CLP.
Though a fierce critic of Bliar, he's no stooge of Brown's and one of the very few NuLab MPs worthy of anyone's respect. All he's asking is for the challenge to be done in the open to avoid damaging Labour's reputation further. It's certainly not to save his own skin - he was astonished to retain his seat last time by 213 votes ahead of the Tories.
Hard to believe but true - a WYSIWYG politician.
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Eaton:
You really ought to chill out a little. Take one of your crusty dusty old prog rock albums off the shelf, put it on, and relax. Let the music take you away somewhere nice. It'll do you the world of good.
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The media seemed to loose interest in the Labour party when the Dallas style soap opera of Blair and Brown was settled. and Brown became PM. Now its back, they are getting over excited again.
Can anyone explain the current weird fashion for political leaders who look like school children? We know about Cameron and Clegg. now we have potentially Milliband challenging, maybe spotting the trend. Who looks like he hasn't started shaving yet.
Maybe they are responding to the type of adolescent minded childish school yard comments on sites like this and HYS.
No use responding with "..typical nanny state labour, whatever happened to freedom of speech?" because I've just done it for you. What about freedom of speech for everyone. not just Conservatives, BNP and UKIP voters?
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102#
Fair point I just wish I didn't spend all day working at the Potato Council to keep you lot at home on your PCs trying to take my job away.
PS tip from the inside, go long on Maris Pipers!
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#102 Carrots
Too late! The extradition has already started.
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#94 - whatisaidwas
I have only once received a reply from a minister in 18 years. Normally a minion sends an acknowledegment.
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Maybe Milliband / Millhouse has been very clever here......
He can now slink back into the shadows and halt his challenge to Gordon.
Milliband probably knows that Labour will lose the next election and he comes across as too young and nerdy to win at the moment.
So why not let Gordon lose the election and then take on the Labour leadership in opposition.
The rub is - Gordon has left the public finances in an awful state. The chances are Cameron will get elected and things will be so hard to turn around that the Tories get kicked out of office after one term.
....... then as leader of the opposition Milliband can appear like a knight in shining armour to rescue the country, in true Labour fashion, after someone else has done the un-popular 'heavy lifting to fix the countries financial woes.
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# 99
I do not detect any great enthusiasm for the Tories out there in England.
In my opinion, this current wave against Labour has more to do with the economy turning sour than anything else.
In similar countries, such as Canada and Australia, the incumbent Government stayed in power for 22 and 18 years respectively in modern times.
Politicians might not like it, but the people generally could not care less who is 'in charge' as long as the economy is steady, they feel prosperous, and the politicians resist interfering too much in the people's lives.
Miliband says he has written the piece to attack the Tory notion of 'Britain's crumbling society'.
So it is more than odd that the two parties most responsible for this, namely the SNP and Plaid, do not get a mention in the piece.
But of course, Labour/Miliband or the Tories do not really mean that Britain, the one that really is crumbling before our very eyes.
They are all fixated on 'Westminster Britain', a curiously vacuous entity that means almost nothing the the rest of us.
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108. Eatonrifle
Im not feeling the love tonight, hard day eh.
Ive been at the office too, these dam Carrots dont market themselves.
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It took 2 weeks for Purnell to get back to me and he didn't even answer the question! The slimy scum!
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They're starting to fight like ferrets in a sack; same ferrets, different sack. I bet Tony Blair is wetting himself when he recalls the loyalty shown by McCavity Brown. Cherie will have to rewrite her memoirs.
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re: 108, 113
We're in the right jobs people! Carrots markets carrots for a few minutes each day and puts his feet up, Eatonrifle does the same with potatoes and I'm a council dog poo snooper! Get paid 600 grand a year too for taking a few pics!
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JohnConstable 112:
You're a better painter than you are a commentator. I'd stick to the painting if I were you. You must be making a mint off all those cheapo prints of your most popular works. What are you wasting your time (and talent) on here for?
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# 106
I'm taking your advice and pulling out Tales from Topographic Oceans.
That is me gone AWOL for a few hours.
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Further to my #105
Unilike Bob Marshall-Andrews, Geraldine Smith is NuLab to the core, with a strong voting record pro the Iraq war.
As she has no website of her own to tell us. I suggest we need look no further than her Morecambe and Lunesdale seat, where a 5.7% swing to the Tories will defeat her next time.
It's hard not to suspect that she thinks she'll be gone whatever happens, so wants "Duff" Gordon to do what he does best by clinging on to retain gravy train arrivals for as long as feasible.
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Re #45 jonathan_cook
"Ha! So iff Milliband is Mill House. Who does that make Gordon Brown?"
Dotheboys Hall?
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i cant say im a big fan of milliband but anyone has to be better than the so called democratic political style of mr brown,
day after day i cant help feeling like blair should of stood up to this bully and let us all know how much of a dictator we had waiting in the horizon to tell us what we can and can not do!
as a firm believer in peoples rights to choose what they want mr brown continues to baffle me with his botched jobs in politics,
people call this man one of the best chancellors this country has ever seen i disagree,he must of seen this recession on the horizon because im no economist and it was obvious around two yrs ago house prices were spiraling out of control,
so praise mr miliband for trying to save us from braveheart brown trying his hardest to undermine the english gouvement,
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History repeats itself. I reread the story of the decline of the Liberals.
Swap "Liberal" and "Labour" in the following, and it could serve as Nick's thread in a few years time.
"The war struck at the heart of everything British Liberals believed in. Several Cabinet ministers resigned, and Asquith, the master of domestic politics, proved a poor war leader. Lloyd George and Churchill, however, were zealous supporters of the war, and gradually forced the old pacifist Liberals out"
"At the 1922 and 1923 elections the Liberals won barely a third of the vote and only a quarter of the seats in the House of Commons, as many radical voters abandoned the divided Liberals and went over to Labour."
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#115 - skynine
Rewrite? You mean some actually wrote the first lot of drivel?
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Re #17 chrisbowie
"Almost as hilarious as Charles's postings is the fact that Milliband can't seem to look anyone in the eye when answering a question"
If Milliband actually "answered" a question, it would make headline news. Same with "Duff" Gordon.
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JohnConstable 118:
I'm off too. My comments are getting increasingly nutty. I think I need to take one of the green pills tonight. Might just pull out an old prog rock thing myself.
Toodleoo blogland.
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Farewell!
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The Labour government dragged us into an illegal war people! Let's not forget that when we finally get to the ballot box! A vote against Labour is not a wasted one!
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After 3 terms New Labour are not going to sit back and allow the Tories in without a fight, despite what the Labour backbenchers and Unions might think.
Bunker Brown has proved himself devoid of all leadership qualities and has never been liked by the electorate.
Miliband has the right brand of New Labour credentials, optimism and intellectual rigor to appeal to middle england.
If Labour want to stay in Office they should get Miliband in asap, shoot the Badger and get a grip on the economy and stay out of Iran.
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Interesting scenario, with the young pretender. Who would the Conservatives like as labour leader other than G.B. my guess anyone other than Miliband, probably appeals to middle England more that any other possible contender.
Has Miliband shot himself in the foot by coming out with his opening shot in whatever guise he might say but I agree with you Nick it is testing the water. I don't think Labour party will forgive him whatever he might do or say, he is talented but maybe ambition has got the better of him and know he has become the stalking horse. His odds have just lengthened.
Might put the this weeks pension on for him to loose.
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Brownedov
William Hill are offering 6/5 on Brown departing during 2008.
As I recall, you predicted Glasgow East better than the bookies. Reckon this one is worth a few quid from the gas bill tin?
I asked Wee Eck, but he couldn't stop laughing.
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125#
Only nutty untill compared to Purple Dogzz. Now then youre really talking!!
127#
But you'll be voting for the Tories that voted for the same war.
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Re #64 oldnat
You've hit the spot, somewhere. The URL linking to the Times you quoted way back was working when I started to wade through the posts after my shopping trip, but is now producing a 404.
unspeak is being unwritten as i write
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Re #66 purpleDogzzz
LOL
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Personally, I think Milliband should toss his hat in the ring and take the chance that is being so neatly lined up. Gordon is flailing in the polls and frankly anyone who removes the current PM is a man I would put my faith in.
And demoting him to the back benches won't work. That'll be enough of a catalyst to really light the political bonfire, with a leadership challenge a real possibility against such a harsh action.
Mr Brown needs to tread very lightly.
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re: 131
The evidence for it was fudged, just like every scrap of information that comes from this rotten government!
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I see David Miliband has been compared to Tony Blair...well at least he stayed in office longer than any other labour PM.
Any genuine labour supporter should rally round Mr Miliband as he is the future.
You must face the fact that Gordon Brown is finished as far as the British electorate are concerned and a new young leader , with fresh ideas is what will appeal most to those who would vote labour, but mistrust it under Brown's leadership.
As soon as Miliband is elected leader, you can guarantee the polls will immediately show a large swing back to labour.
Lets not dilly dally any longer and allow time to regain the public's confidence in the party with a new and I think ,exciting leader.
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#132 Brownedov
The Times seem to have withdrawn the story. Sky News says that the FCO has denied that the September trip was ever planned. They also say that Times reported that invitations to meet him had already been sent out to Indian political and business leaders, and that the Foreign Secretary held a "farewell meeting" with his staff, though the FCO insists it was a retirement party for another member of staff.
Probably a bit of crap reporting.
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131. Eatonrifle
Very True but not the party that wrote the Dodgy Dossier that persuaded everyone to vote for the war.
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re: 136
They need more than an exciting leader. They need a stake in their rotten black heart. (And a nice long spell in opposition so they can work out what went wrong. Hint: centralisation)
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#135 pttp
Yes, but the Tories were either too stupid to see what millions of us could see, that Blair was lying through his teeth, or are just as much in the trousers of a US President, as Blair was.
Either way, it's not a recommendation to vote for them. Marginally less stupid/corrupt than Labour perhaps, but not much.
Blast! I keep forgetting that this is a blog for the British, and I'm just a friendly neighbour.
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#136 glenanton
First post I see. Welcome to the old codger's site Mr Miliband.
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At last it looks as if David Milliband is beginning to come to the fore. I have thought often what a superb speaker he is and he is quite definitely the future of the Labour party.
In a way it might be better for him to wait until Mr Brown has lost the next election before he makes a move because I think Labour cannot win whoever is leader and he would then be wasted. Nevertheless, I never voted for Blair, and could certainly never vote for Brown, but for Mr Milliband, going on what I have heard and seen so far, I most certainly would.
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Labour MP's want as many monthly salaries as they can get their hands on right now................they certainly don't want to face the growing dole queues that they're prolifigacy has now created!
So I predict Milibandwagon's wagon won't get rolling because it will simply result in the premature unemployment of huge numbers of Labour MP's due to the immediate need for a General Election..........and as we know most Politicians are are times like these totally self-serving.
It's best that Bottler faces the country in about 620 days...........it's not a long time...........and goes down to a catastrophic defeat. Then Labour can re-group under triple brain/bypass bandwagon and offer the type of effective opposition DC has, to his credit, delivered on behalf of the nation. Government's of all persuasions need constantly challenging!
The only person Labour has that may have the gravitas to be PM right now and possibly avoid total meltdown is Jack The Strawman. But like Michael Howard he would be a caretaker leader.........but BETTER than Bottler!
Milibandwagon is acting like Heseltiine....being duplicitous..............rather than courageous. It's typical NEW LABOUR to spin and plot and on that basis the country will reject him. It' not a good start.........................
Please David either put up of shut up but stop these pathetic two faced calculated antics if you seriously want to be PM.
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Whats the collective noun for Milibands.
Suggestions on a post card.
I like: A pomposity
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Right on the money Nick....now somebody needs to nail Purnell as a secret member of the Miliband of Men....for he assuredly is.
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Re #86 vaneyck
A fair cop guv.
Remember folks: Mili like the Albanian photographer; not Milli as in Milli Vanill the German musicians.
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Come on Beeb, speed up the moderation! You're really doing my head in today! You're almost as bad as those damn Labour weasels dammit *froths at the mouth with rage* DAMN IT!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re collective noun for Miliband: A David of Milibands
A counterfeit of Milibands
An ambition of Milibands
His name used to be Military-Band until he shortened it
www.notbornyesterday.org
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re: 140, oldnat
As I've said before, I'd rather be stabbed in the front by the Tories than in the back by Labour. There is no excuse for their creeping stealth taxes and creeping erosion of freedoms. Vote for Labour and it keeps on happening, vote for the Tories and it'll probably still happen anyway but not just yet! Labour should be in prison for their crimes
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#142 sjymusic
And another first time poster! - Ah it's the brother.
I do like family gatherings!
How many more Milibands are going to appear?
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#143 and #144
Now don't be nasty, when the Milibands are actually here with us! Ask them some questions - but nicely now!
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Brown should sack Milliband to stamp his authority. He probably won't because he does not have any authority. But Milliband as Chancellor may have the communication skills not to fighten the horses in the dour way that Darling manages.
On the Jeremy Vine show, however, Milliband was merely communicating continuing Labour government policies better than Brown could. People wanted change after Blair and did not get it. If Milliband becomes PM and des not deliver radical change and abandon unpopular policies Labour will be out. Politicians always think its personalities or the way they sell things; but it is always what they are selling which is unpalatable to the electorate and the politicians somehow never see that.
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Milliband may be out on a limb now but what about when the real heavyweights come in......Harriet Harperson, She won't be able to keep quiet once the gloves really come off. She'll give him a run for his money and off with his balls ha ha
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Re #88 chilworth
How? I presume you're a NuLab member, but will "Duff" Gordon stand against him?
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144 Carrots needa Quango
A collective of Milibands:
- A top lip of..........
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Gordon Brown was renowned for disappearing whenever there was a crisis under Tony Blair. At the time, it was suggested that he was strong and silent. We now know the truth: He had nothing to say or offer, no ideas, no solutions. He is now a national embarrassment and the sooner he goes, the better. He will only be remembered for being the worst Prime Minister in modern history.
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#155 Brownedov
I see chilworth is also a first time poster praising Miliband!
Do you think this is the Granny?
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An assasin of Milibands......
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#154 bistodrinker
Are you sure he actually has any?
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I'm highly amused at these apparent Miliband supporters. Either oldnat is right and they're on this board for real or else they're some other member of that criminal gang known as Labour here to try to persuade us that that bumfluffed buffoon would make a good PM! What ED BALLS he should be strung up and thrown to the sharks the worthless lying rubber-faced clown! Can anyone name one thing, ONE THING that Miliband has done in government?
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And a collective of Gordon Browns?
How about:
- a colostomy bag of browns
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
152. oldnat
The question Id like to ask is:
Does your Mum know what youre up to.
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#160 errrrr No
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144
A deceimille of deceits!
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162. jonathan_cook
Im trying very hard not to think about that one.
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162
After eating too many figs, Gay Gordons caught short without underpants.
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161. power_to_the_ppl
Sure.. he signed the Lisbon Treaty on time
ooops. I hear tumble weed rolling
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#161 pttp
Actually I suspect that the chilworth, glenanton, sjymusic trio are actually one of our mutual friends who said he was logging off for the night, but has returned in disguise.
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To quote notbornyesterday.org, re: Miliband:
"The Foreign Secretary has always abstained on issues of a more transparent Parliament. He voted very strongly for the Iraq War, very strongly against an investigation into that war, very strongly for the introduction of ID cards, very strongly for extensions of period without trial under the anti-terrorism laws, and very strongly for the fox-hunting ban.
These are not exactly the votes of a man keen to restore freedoms of speech and support individual liberty. Even less so when one considers the enthusiasm of his support for the insane Racial and Religious Hatred Bill, the last attempt (before 7/7 thankfully scotched it) by illiberal Islam in the UK to make criticism of religious minorities a crime even if the criticisms were true.
So Miliband is not only at the Hobbesian end of social engineering, he is also frequently wrong. But then, he wouldn't see those votes as 'wrong': he'd use another word - shrewd perhaps, or tactical. David is, as we established earlier, straight and in no way crooked - he is a man with no convictions to his name - in every sense of the phrase."
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re: 169
hehehe
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Wow! The ol' schoolhouse is really rocking tonight!
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Right I'm going for a lie down my blood pressure's through the roof. See you in a bit fellow Labour-haters
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See the tories are out in force, terrified on this one. Lest we forget the shambolic leader shufflling during that ludicrous period of tory so called government. Thankfully the great Mr Blair and Labour only took one term to reverse that destruction. Mr Milliband is scaring them already and looks to be a prime minister in the making.
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Re #107 dhwilkinson
If that was what it seemed to be, a rubbishing of Mili Major, why not come out of the closet and say: "I support 'Duff' Gordon in the forthcoming Labour Party leadership election because ......."?
Until and unless you do, what's the point of rubbishing someone who has not declared his candidature?
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We think we've got away with it. Don't let's kid ourselves. The moderators have the final revenge, the men in white coats are coming for us!
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Re #108 Eatonrifle
Why can't Brisih farmers produce Charlottes to compete with the French?
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Ive Got it
A slither of Milibands
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#175 1966fox
Welcome to the site Grandad Miliband. I did like your previous post about some ball game you watch. Have I got it right KRIKETT?
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#171
"so Milliband is not only at the Hobbesian end of social engineering, he is frequently wrong" .... exactly the credentials for a Prime Minister in these uncertain times .... "beware of that two handed engine that waits at the door to smite once and smite no more " ( Milton, for those on the right with nothing to quote earlier than Kierkegaard)
... this guy could really cut the mustard .. Dave Snooty, be afraid, be very afraid ...
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"Only nutty untill compared to Purple Dogzz. Now then youre really talking!!"
I take a great deal of pleasure in being considered a nutter by someone as brainwashed and utterly manipulated and out of touch as eatonrifle.
Thank you for confirming my sanity. But I KNOW fully how crazy some of my assertions sound. I also know that my facts and sources are impeccable and despite the media version's of events often being contrary to my own at the time of writing, the media end up confirming most of what I write eventually. For them it is "EXCLUSIVE BREAKING NEWS" for me it is a laugh as it is often something I knew month or years before.
eaton cannot claim the same. His reality is whatever the Daily Mirror writes.
For a person who is so far up Gordon Brown's back end to claim that I am a nutter? Well that proves my sanity!
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#118 speaking of YES, I was actually wondering if purpledogzzz was a shiny purple flying wolfhound !!!
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Labour is now on 27 per cent, down one point on the last Populus poll three weeks ago
Voters are increasingly writing off Labour as fewer people believe that a change of leader or policy would help the party to win the next general election.
There has been a three-point rise, to 44 per cent, in the number saying that even replacing him with ?a younger, fresher, more charismatic alternative? would not make Labour more likely to win.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4419035.ece
Think its fair to say the clunking fist will hang on to power till 2010.
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Bandit at 175 High
God how many Milibands are there ?
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This posting board has assumed the role of the old-time stocks. All we need is a ducking pond, then we can see if the witch sinks or swims. I said at the start that this blog was superfluous, and I publically apologise for the vulgarity of some of my postings. Wow, what a hypocrite I am, maybe I should stand as an MP!
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A "line" of Camerons
A snort of Camerons
A Bullingdon of Camerons
A Black Wednesday of Camerons (NOT VERY CATCHY)
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Miliband denies he is planning to take over the leadership of NuLabour. Maybe he is telling the truth. He plans to lead the tories.
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182#
UNDERPANTS, PENCILS, WIBBLE!!
work it out.
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179 Carrots
Yep - a slither of Milibands...........
like it.
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Did you all know that "David Miliband" is an anagram of "Invalid mad bid" ????
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187. Eatonrifle
A bit light weight and a little classist.
Id go more along the lines of:
A hilarity or A euphoric
But if you wnated to be unkind
A vacuum
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#184 Roll_On (OK I know it makes you sound like a deodarant)
The trouble about these UK (or more probably Great Britain) polls, is that they don't reflect the different body politics in the UK.
It's frankly stupid to report the "others" as 12%. Anyone want to believe that the SNP or Plaid are only polling 12%?
Remove the (admittedly small number of) non English voters from the data, and the numbers for England would show a lower % of "Others" and Labour, and more Tories.
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182#
When did you state a FACT as opposed to your opinion?
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"If Milliband becomes PM and des not deliver radical change and abandon unpopular policies Labour will be out. "
WHAT??? Miliband should NOT be given a chance without a general election. Labour should be out NOW!
Blair didn't deliver so he was undemocratically ousted mid term and Brown was sworn in with the overwhelming support of the parliamentary labour party. Now the same people then that claimed that there should NOT be a general election for Brown's coronation are admitting the complete failure of the Brown Government too. Labour have collapsed into dissaray and failure twice in 3 years.
After all, If Brown's Government has NOT failed, why the hell do you call for his replacement??? Oh and the "manifesto" that Miliband published as an opinion peice in the Grauniad, had ALL the same policies that have ruined labour's reputation for the last eleven years. There was no promise to end the ID card, no promise to hold a referendum, no real change in direction at all, as Miliband has been a faithfull supporter of EVERY failed policy initiative of the last eleven years. He was responsible for many of them.
No all we get from him is just a worthless promise to communicate labour ideas better. Well sorry, but we are hearing labour ideas very very clearly. It is only the total arrogance of a party in office but not in power, that means that they are incapable of understanding that we DO NOT LIKE THEIR IDEAS!!! WE DO HEAR THEM AND WE REJECT WHAT THEY SAY!!!
By attempting to enforce yet another failure upon us, you are asking for the British People to accept the destruction of democracy a second time in 18 months to allow labour to indulge in yet ANOTHER chance at the trough!!!
NO!!!! LABOUR HAVE FAILED!!! If you cannot accept a Brown led government, then get out of power and have your civil war as the UK's 3rd party. Leave the Governing to the tories (for one term). leave the opposing to the Liberal democrats and conduct your civil war from the harmless reaches of the most distant of the back benches.
Give us the general election now.
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I have been unable to post for the past 2 hours or so on another blog. Posts are not even getting into the mod queue. Any ideas anyone?
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#186 Phoenixarisen
Loved that description.
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There is clearly a leadership stall being set out by Miliband. If you can't say something good about Gordon brown then don't say anything at all?
I find his article hard to read for all the contradiction in it crowned off by the offering of change. They offered us that 11 years ago and although it took them a few years to get into their stride we have certainly come to grief on their brand of change now.
Mind you - it seems Labour need someone to give them a pep talk right now as they are floundering in a vat of treacle of some depth.
One wonders why, when most politicians are on holiday are Miliband and Harman putting their faces about so much if there is seriously no possibility of a leadership contest. So much posturing for nothing?
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Oh, dear. The SNP have really set the cat among the pigeons down in dear old Blighty, have they not? Scotland still calling the shots. How annoying for you all.
If you want this tail to stop wagging this dog, you're going to have to cut it off, I'm afraid. You'll never get any peace otherwise, and that's a promise.
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192#
Classist? rather PC of you to point it out?
Why Classist, I'm sure its not just Old Etonians that like to powder the nose on the inside.
Like the "vacuum" though, very accurate.
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Re #122 oldnat
I wish you were right, oldnat, but at best it'll be the LibDems who replace NuLab next time.
Even then they need to sort out their constitutional plans, to start selling them to the public and to find somebody to start pushing a believable agenda in Scotland again.
From your postings on the Brian Taylor threads, I'd hazard a guess that you somehow managed to type #122 with your fingers crossed hoping that they don't quite find their way and that the SNP will be the beneficiaries of the impending collapse of NuLab in Scotland.
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"See the tories are out in force, terrified on this one."
Terrified?? That really made me laugh!!!
No people are NOT terrified of the non-entity, Miliband, but they are very angry that labour was elected to govern for five years and they have spent a large part of that sticking two fingers up to the electorate. They have NOT been governing and now they are tearing themselves apart on our time with masses of our money.
If I was employed by you to fit a kitchen, and I kept changing the the cooker, but ignored all the other parts of the kitchen and kept putting the price up, then kept changing who was coming to fit it, and damaged the rest of your house in the process, then I decided to change the kitchen fitter again leaving an proven idiot to fit it, then as a consumer you would be angry NOT scared.
Scared of milibands electoral threat??? that is completely laughable.
Miliband may look like a decent prospect if you are in a blind panic and you are into knee-jerking. He does NOT look electable to the British Public.
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Is purpledogzzz a student at uni studying politics .... hes very angry about something .
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195#
three general elections 1997, 2001, 2005,
British Parliamentary term 5 years.
Facts not opinions there is a difference you don't seem to grasp.
"we DO NOT LIKE THEIR IDEAS!!! WE DO HEAR THEM AND WE REJECT WHAT THEY SAY!!!"
When exactly were you elected to talk on everyones behalf?
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Re #130 oldnat
As an old cynic I'd want to do some analysis, but with the bookies and the media all getting Glasgow East so wrong my 1st reaction would be to put a few quid on "Duff" Gordon.
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staying, that is
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re: 170 oldnat
Undoubtedly. That puffed-up popinjay just can't help himself.
re: 204 eatonrifle
I think everyone on this board apart from a minority (and Hardwidge and his pseudonyms make up a few of those) would like to see Labour get the thrashing they deserve. I certainly would.
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200. Eatonrifle
PC to the core me
Oh alright Perhaps a Nob of camerons
I like that more
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Nick when you said "If there is a Miliband poll bounce which is quite likely given the favourable publicity he's had and the extraordinary unpopularity of the prime minister" I was looking for a punch line.
You know better than I how unpopular Brown is. A change of leadership may help Labour in the long run, and it may give them pause for breath. But there are no magic solutions as the real issue that he has yet to tackle is the New Labour project is dead, and starting to smell. So is back to old Labour or some kind of New New Labour.
I thought they would all start tearing into each other once in opposition but its started already.
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Re #140 oldnat
You're starting to make me fear you're a NuLab agent provocateur.
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Eaton, that is a vacuous reference to Blackadder goes forth. And???
As for facts, you still support labour so would not recognose a fact if you fell over one.
I would like to take you on in a battle of wits, but you are clearly unarmed. I shall releave you of your delusions of adequacy, and simply offer this advice to you, when your IQ reaches as high as 10, sell!
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Milliband will likely take a leaf, or more likely a chapter from the best selling book by Gordon Brown "How to Undermine a PM while looking like a good PM candidate" which is, a few days, maybe even weeks of not comming out in support, then right at the last possible moment coming out in support of the PM to show his "Loyalty" and that he "puts the country first". And despite being a labour voter, I think Gordon Brown deserves a taste of his own medicne. For 10 years he had his eye on number 10 and not his job so much that he took both eyes and hands completly off the ball! It would even make the next election more interesting, two people the media love, each with very little to reccomend them other than a smile and a few "i hope we can posibally maybe do this" type commitments.
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#201 Brownedov
It's confusing for me sometimes, but I try to post as a Scot on Scottish politics, and a friendly neighbour on English politics.
It was too complicated to make the comparisons with the 1910's/1920's with the Lib-Dems. I should have remembered that there is still a Liberal Party with representation - even if not at westminster.
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re: 206
Yeah, I think he will stay... After all the plotting/backstabbing etc to get the job he won't give it up lightly. The question is, will Miliband have the Ed Balls to backstab him or will Britain perish in the flames? (Those two options are not mutually exclusive)
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#203 rabbiehippo
I think its the blue pills (and not Viagra!)
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197# I think you missed the irony in your own comment.
UK Parliamentary term, five years
Three elections
1997 to 2001 FOUR YEARS
2001 to 2005 FOUR YEARS
But now apparently it is wrong to call for an election early, when Labour are doing badly!
Odd that!
Here's why there should be an election. Because in 2005, Tony Blair said that he would serve a full term if Labour were re-elected.
That became an election promise, which he very soon broke.
The people of the UK got a new Labour PM that they were told they wouldn't get.
Now we are possibly going to end up with yet another Labour PM within the same term. DO you see the difficulty. Three leaders in three years, when we were promised one.
That is why there should be an election.
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Seems as if we are entering a similar phase to that of John Major's Government in the mid-1990s. How long before Brown has to say 'Back me or sack me'?
In this case, unlike Major, Brown may not keep his job. Major won his contest but lost the election in 1997 and the Tories ended up engulfed in a civil war. Labour may think they have nothing to lose and try to eject Brown anyway...
Certainly if Milliband is touting himself as a future PM/Leader for Labour, then he is sailing very close to the letter of collective responsibility. If his intentions are to take Brown's job then he should resign his post in the Cabinet... Will he have the gumption to do it, and does Labour want to risk a massive public split? In public things are still cordial, in private, who knows...
Why Milliband would want the poisoned chalice of Brown's job God only knows - especially as things are going to get a lot tougher between now and the next election...
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Re #193 oldnat
Sssshh. Leave a treat in store for nice Mr C when he climbs the greasy pole and sees all the ginger wigs beneath.
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Yes he may be testing the water but can he navigate through shark infested waters ?
http://vonpip.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/milliband-tests-the-water/
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Post 195 PurpleDogzz
Totally agree with you.
Labour have had their time, had their chance and failed ...........and it's time they left the stage...............
Surely a THIRD Labour leader/PM in 15 months without a General Election would be against our unwritten constitutional conventions and worse still simply undemocratic.
Have there been any elected peace-time parliaments in the last 150 years where the governing party has changed it's leader 3 or more times without gaining the mandate of the electorate? I can't think of any?
If Labour changed their leader and don't heed Dave's call made after the Glasgow East bye-bye Brown election for a General Election then it proves Labour are only interested in their own snouts being in the trough for as long as possible ..............whilst the rest of us suffer.............one way of another..........
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Re #196 threnodio
Your posts almost certainly broke the parser's rules on HTML coversion.
See my Post #94 on Nick's Winds of political change thread.
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211#
Yeah you're right I couldn't possibly take on someone who can't separate fact from opinion but enjoy the ranting, it is a free country after all.
(cue someone to say its not a free country)
207# No doubt the majority on the board are right-wing ranters but still don't think that means you should claim to talk for everyone. I know its an old fashioned view but opinion is just that, every one is entitled to one without being hectored and harangued as seems to be a common response on here and be honest you do have that tendancy yourself.
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Re #211 purpleDogzzz
LOL
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# Everything by Purpledogzzz
I can't guess what it is, but everything that you say reminds me of a tortoise that has rolled onto the back of its shell and is desperately screaming at the world in an attempt to return to the security of its four legs :)
I am just bemused by the amount of people in this post who are immediately inclined to jump on the 'I hate new labour; I want my taxmoney back; I hate the bbc ... whinge whinge whine ... blah blah blah' BANDWAGON.
Anyhow, getting back to the question :)
Would I vote for Milliband? Well, he's young, a rapidly promoted young upstart who has no real track-record and is already upsetting the labour path of succession - ooh, do you know who that reminds me of?
Tony Blair, the most successful labour prime minister ever.
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216#
Ugly John
Your're right I should have said "Maximum" 5 years.
Anyone can shout for, call for, prey for an election any time they wish, I know i did in 1994/5/6 etc but had to wait the full 5 years.
Just like that I'm afraid. Fact not opinion
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Re #213 oldnat
OK - not trying to score but I know a tongue in a cheek when I see one
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re: 222
It's not a free country
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re: 224
You're deluded. And yeah Blair was successful, but he was also a grinning liar who led us into an illegal war, go figure.
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God, I do so hope he stands. There is no way on God's earth he'd get elected. Too smug, too lightweight, relatively inexperienced. Another political animal with no backstory bar politics worth a candle. I can't wait. Labour's ritual suicide seems to be edging ever closer.
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When I posted the following on Justin Webb's blog, I was thinking of the political situation:
28. At 8:15pm on 31 Jul 2008, threnodio wrote:
For those who question why the Brits drink so much, take a look at Nick Robinson's Newslog on this site and ask yourself whether you could handle that sober.
If this coincided with the moment you all decided to go barking mad, I can only assure you that it was entirely accidental and that I profoundly regret any embarrassment arising. Thank you for your attention. You may now go back to being teapots.
It's a confabulation of Milibands by the way.
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I hope he is retained, if Brown were to sack him now like some want then it will show a real sign of weakness and paranoia.
Better to treat it with the shrug of the shoulders as the irrelevence that it is.
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Re 220
We could have 456 prime ministers in 456 days and it would be neither unconstitutional nor undemocratic.
Although it might break a few labour party rules :)
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221 - Brownedov
Strange that. That is what I thought. I had copied it from Word with no html mark up at all. So I retyped it letter for letter and it went in straight away.
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Let's put a ring of salt around all Labour MPs! It's cheap, easy, and they'll all be screwed!
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224# BarryC
Thanks for a voice of sanity and reason and love the analogy
'I hate new labour; I want my taxmoney back; I hate the bbc ... whinge whinge whine ... blah blah blah' BANDWAGON.
Priceless but you could add
Powerpeople
Northern Thatcherite (yes I know)
Dr Gloom
etc etc
All on their backs shouting the same
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176 Browndev
I'm not campaigning for anyone. What's the point?
Just pointing out that we have two opposition parties led by men who look like schoolchildren. Like a school where a few kids teaching a school full of adults. Also the media speculation that another person who IS young, and looks young, not an insult! wants to Challenge. He doesn't have much experience nor does Cameron or Clegg.
More reason to wonder why the trend for political Children as leaders of our main political parties? Jaqui Smith an unknown before july 2007 is also being talked about as possible leader by the shallow celebrity obsessed infotainment media.
Jack Straw would have been Ideal, but he has grey hair now, so he's out.
I sometimes wonder if Cameron and Clegg are frontmen a façade being controlled from behind by less Yoof orientated maybe former failed candidates for the role of PM.
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Here we go, while the cats away (but not too far away in Suffolk), the gloves are off, the hare is running, the dog fight is about to start - a Government in complete disarray.
It's like Nero playing his fiddle while Rome burned.
And we the poor citizens must look on in frustration and complete disillusionment, getting poorer and more fed-up by the day!
As for David Millipede - this little creep has the look of Vlad the Impaler about him. He has shifty eyes, no smile - just a grimace/smirk - and looks even more untrustworthy than his boss GB. He has the personality of a mortician. No flair, no style and no substance.
Where are the days when a Foreign Secretary actually looked the part of an international diplomat? This young upstart has not lived long enough yet to even be responsible for putting out the dustbins.
God help us if this is the best Labour has to offer as an alternative to Gordy Broon - we are all doomed!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re power_to_the_ppl (#228)
A little challenge - Prove:
A) I'm deluded
B) Tony Blair lied to us in the way you imply (ie maliciously and in bad faith)
C) That the war in Iraq was illegal.
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#224 and #232 yoctoBarryC
Why do these Milibands use such complex names? They're so awkward to type! Are you his uncle John?
Are they aware of the rule that all Cabinet Ministers and their families who post here have to give us all a large drink from their John Lewis cocktail cabinet?
Thanks, I'll have a Talisker.
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234#
Speaks volumes as many other posts of yours. A proud Conservative's best work.
'I hate new labour; I want my taxmoney back; I hate the bbc ... whinge whinge whine ... blah blah blah' BANDWAGON.
Sorry just had to be repeated.
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#220 Nu Labour = Tories so i can hardly see anything changing if or when they get back in. Same policies ... suck up to big business and screw the poor, after all it wasnt Labour that started the PFI bandwagon rolling. Roll on 2010
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Re Eatonrifle (#235)
Thanks for the support (it's mutual).
I might have added them, but about 50 comments in, the tosh was starting to merge together.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the problem with BBC blogs (and all blogs/chatrooms etc) is that Anonymity + Audience = Automated Bullshit.
I always remember the wise words of Ben Franklin:
"Any fool can condemn, criticise and complain, and most fools do."
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#236 re Jack Straw .... i believe there is a product called 'Just for men'
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239#
Don't bother to ask Barry, you could look at dozens of posts and you'll see exactly the same trend of expressing their opinions as if they're facts. It would appear they just cannot separate the two OR its arrogance of such a level that they believe a tory opinion is a fact
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Re #240 (oldnat)
1) I am in no way associated with any Cabinet Minister, Shadow Minister, MP or political officer in anyway.
Although, I often wish I was - that way I could be earning £40,000 for 14 hours a week, and as you mention, have a well-furnished house from John Lewis.
2) If I were getting drunk, the last port of call for me would be here :)
I'd be watching some good tv, or better still, be out with my mates.
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re: 239
Well I'd need about 6 months with all the documents in front of me along with a copy of 'Unpicking Labour Spin: Advanced Level' by T. Bliar to do that. But I know it's true, just as I know the earth goes round the sun. You can't seriously be suggesting that he didn't lie and that the war was legal? If you are suggesting that then yes you are deluded, completely and irreversibly so, you Labour troll ;)
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#236 dhwilkinson
Since you only have a UK Parliament, you have far more than 2 opposition parties!
Oh, I do love the arrogance of some English, it makes the job in Scotland so much easier
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Who does David Milliband intend to benefit by writing in the Guardian and appearing on radio 2? Himself? The Labour Party? or us?
The only people to benefit as far as I can see are the media. Here we are in the silly season for news reporting and the media are having a a field day with this one.
So a PM with "huge experience" and "strong values" is "beleaguered" and "extraordinarily unpopular" is he?.
I and most people I talk to object to being told what to think by the media. We don't set much store by a few words in the Guardian and a phone in show on a wireless programme which usually has Terry Wogan wittering on about something when we switch it on. By the sound of it, David Milliband didn't take it too seriously either... It's the silliest of silly seasons and for all we know, he got friends, relatives and colleagues to phone in with just the kind of thing the media hounds were likely to lap up and bark about. What larks!
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Re #238 (power_to_the_ppl)
It seems just a LITTLE pompous/pretentious to call yourself (and others) 'the englightened few'.
Especially when you seem to think of New Labour as 'tax-wasting weasels'.
That just shows a lack of any basic understanding of taxation, public spending and the economic cycle.
Ever so enlightened of you.
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#246 yoctoBarryC
Sorry about that. There's been an invasion of Millibands on the site this evening. You have a sense of humour, so you're clearly not one.
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247# said
"Well I'd need about 6 months with all the documents in front of me"
Isn't that what at least 2 enquiries had?
What was the conclusion?
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re: 249
Wouldn't surprise me. Everything they do is calculated to either (a) further their own career or (b) further their own career at our expense. Nothing else matters. Serving the people who elect them? Forget it, get on the Westminster gravy train and that's it they're corrupt for life.
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Re #247 (power to the ppl etc)
Well, if I'm perfectly honest with you, an independent judge (called Lord Hutton) and another (called Lord Butler) cleared the government of wrong-doing.
Also, there were implcit approvals from the UN, which gives it some air of authority. Also, I would agree with anyone who says that getting rid of Saddam was a good thing.
And you must remember that it is all to easy to criticise with hind-sight. Mr Blair went on a hunch, as he always says, that 'it seemed like the right thing to do at the time'. He had the courage of his convictions, and pushed ahead with his vision.
It seems to be this complete lack of leadership that has got Mr. Brown into this predicament, which we seem to be discussing at length.
-----
P.S. Never think that I am a labour stooge. I liked blair, I never voted for him. I cannot see myself voting for Labour ever in its current format.
I just like to clear the air now and then :)
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re: 250, Labour minion
Answer me this: 1162 quangos, 100 billion pound black hole. Waste of money or not?
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Re #222 Eatonrifle
"No doubt the majority on the board are right-wing ranters"
Well, you do rant a bit Eatonrifle, but no more than your fellow right-wingers. Let's just say you're authoritarian compared to "soggy" Mr Cameron and move on.
You've said a lot about democracy on this thread, but your posts imply you're not keen on it within your own party, so I think we can guess the answer. Please elaborate if I have misunderstood.
As you've made no contribution to the electoral reform debate, may we assume you're in favour of the least democratic electoral system in the EU, as stitched up between Disraeli and Gladstone in 1872?
Do you regard NuLab's obtaining 100% of the power from less than 25% of the electorate in 2005 as a model to impress the world?
Do you regard it as democracy in action that those knights of the shire who prevail at our quaint old hustings quiver in fear at the party whips (no offence to Mr Mosley intended) thanks to party deselection processes rather than representing their constituents by voting with their consciences at all times?
Do you think it unhealthy for NuLab to "elect" their leaders by their membership from those members of the party who put their names forward for election?
In what sense do you believe NuLab will "win" another election?
Do you think asymmetric devolution was a "wheeze" to retain power in Celtic and Gaelic fastnesses should the worst happen and NuLab "lose" an election in some sense, or were the Bliar / Brown axis nationalist moles deliberately planning the end of the union?
PS: As you seem to be an insider, do you expect "Duff" Gordon to stand for Holyrood after he breaks the union?
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#243 re "Any fool..."
So if only fools condem, criticise and complain, then who else speaks out against the incompetents? I guess it must be the intelligent silent majority - hmmmm!
Those in public office set themselves up for condemnation, criticism and consure when they are incompetent, untrustworthy and too full of their own self importance.
Come on you fellow fools - if we leave it to the silent majority then the politicians will never hear what the voters really think - except every 4/5 years at election time.
Unless of course the silent majority feel like expressing themselves a wee bit louder!
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re: 252
Lol and you actually believe those enquiries were independent? If the government had no say in the outcome I'm a Dutchman
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The odd thing about all this is that the whingers really bring it upon themselves.
"I want less sleaze and less of the gravy train!"
1997 (Tony Blair) "None of the tory sleaze of the 1990's - No cash for questions! We will institute strict laws on party funding!"
"I want better public services!"
1997 (Tony Blair) "We will triple spending to the NHS!"
"I want less taxes too!"
2001 (Tony Blair) "WHAT??"
I just remember the 'I want never gets proverb from my mum'.
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#249 - newtactic
'I and most people I talk to object to being told what to think by the media'.
Oh do me a favour. People generally buy the media which tell them what they want to hear. Most of the time, they are preaching to the converted.
Which people were surprised by the Guardian article? People who don't normally read it and found about it from somewhere else. That's who.
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248 oldnat
"Since you only have a UK Parliament, you have far more than 2 opposition parties!
Oh, I do love the arrogance of some English, it makes the job in Scotland so much easier"
Sorry William Wallace. but this is what I said.
"Just pointing out that we have two opposition parties led by men who look like schoolchildren."
David Cameron(conservative), Nick Clegg(Lib-dem) 2 opposition parties that have leaders that look like schoolchildren"
not 'our only 2 opposition parties that have leaders that look like schoolchildren.'
Get that chip of your shoulder. You don't want to be in the UK anyway so I don't know why you are complaining.
Ulster Unionist, SDLP,SNP, Plaid Cymru etc. lib dem and Conservative. Have I missed any? do I care?
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Re #255 (power to the ppl)
Do you think it's a wise idea to stick all the 'quangos' in the country as a £100bn black hole?
That's like calling the NHS a '£75bn black hole' or the foreign office a '£2bn black hole'.
I'll think you find that there is a lot of worth in those quangos, despite that nice snappy figure of yours.
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256#
Sorry Browndov, can't deal with that at this time of night and anywat too hurt by "right-wing" slur
But would vote for PR without hesitation.
Party system ok in most cases but more free votes would be appreciated
Labour to win another election? In time I guess, perhaps an anyi tory alliance in 10 years or so.
On a lighter note if a hung pariament who do you think the Libs would prop up?
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Nu-Labour are tax-wasting fools
Who break their own fiscal rules
There's a mountain of debt
(Who'll pay? Us I bet)
Forget about rebuilding schools!
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Re #258 (power to the ppl)
DUTCHMAN IN THE ROOM.
Seriously, ask yourself the question. Use your common sense:
"Is it more likely the government wasn't in the wrong or was it more likely that the government had a doctor assassinated, bribed two independent judges and managed to pull the wool over the eyes of the media?"
And don't please go on the rant of "the media are lying to us all", because you just start to categorise yourself as one of those people who wear tin-hats on their head in case the aliens can listen to what they're thinking.
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re: 262
"I'll think you find that there is a lot of worth in those quangos, despite that nice snappy figure of yours."
That's the funniest thing I've heard all night. The Potato Council will be thrilled to hear that you're supporting them through this difficult time!
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Was the war misjudged and ill-conceived? With the wisdom of hindsight, yes. Was it conducted on the basis of dodgy intelligence? Absolutely. Was it illegal? Probably not.
Isn't a war conducted by bunch of ignorant prats a big enough stick with which to beat them without dragging up the legality issue again?
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#218 Brownedov
More bad news for the Brits.
The SNP have done an analysis of the Scottish components of recent UK polls.
http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2414848.0.SNP_claim_polls_put_them_10_points_clear_of_Labour.php
Granted it's by the Party doing best (otherwise they'd have kept their mouths shut). I "phoned a friend" who reckoned that the numbers seemed to add up - I haven't checked myself.
Any of you Labour Brits reckon you'll get much support from your old heartlands? it would be nice to see a similar calculation for the North of England, which has a similar history, but a different political dynamic.
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Lol I'm still laughing at post 262. How anyone can say that with a straight face is beyond me! Potato Council: 49 staff, 6 million/year budget. To promote potatoes.
"I'll think you find that there is a lot of worth in those quangos, despite that nice snappy figure of yours."
Hahahaha
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Re #256 (Brownedov)
I've always held that democracy is the best of a bad bunch when it comes to government.
I think this blog and its comments ironically proves that point.
Yes, majoritarian forms of voting (which means that labour can win in 2005 with 35.3% of the vote, NOT 25%) may be undemocratic.
But look at Italy, who use proportional voting - they've had something along the lines of 64 governments since the end of WW2. Berlusconi was the first Italian PM to serve a full 5 year term without being brought down by a vote of no-confidence.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#261 dhwilkinson
Fair point in that I misread your post.
I think, however, you misunderstand the balance of chips - have you read the Evening Standard?
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Re #225 Eatonrifle
""Maximum" 5 years .... Fact not opinion"
Fact in the sense that QEI/II probably won't use her powers of dissolution if the election is held in 2010, so OK.
But by way of "balance" just look at the "5 year" parliaments since WW2 and give us the benefit of your analysis:
1950: Tories "won" popular vote but Labour scraped a small majority of seats. Labour out after a year for 13 years
1964: Doulas Home had no "democratic" mandate but Labour only scraped a small majority of seats. Tories out for 6 years
1974: Callaghan flunked calling an early election. Labour out for 18 years
1992: Major less unpopular than Kinnock and won to everyone's surprise.
1997: Major "presentation wrong not policies" lost heavily to NuLab. Tories out for 11+ years
What's your take on which one of the 5, a 2010 election would most resemble and why?
Will the pesky Scots and Welsh return to NuLab in 2010?
Will NuLab in Scotland be more likely to return to the days of the "feeble fifty" under Brown or Miliband or A.N.Other?
Will Brown or Miliband or A.N.Other return to Bendy Wendy's "bring it on" for the referendum?
Will "hanging on" be advantagous or deleterious to the unionist cause in a 2010 referendum?
Answers on recycled electrons only please, for marking by that nice Mr Balls
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Labour bloggers are busy I fear
Spreading things that they wish to hear
Their minds are deluded
They've even concluded
That for Labour salvation is near!
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I think we need an SNP party for England.
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Thegangofone -
Knowing your taste for a good conspiracy tale, you may care to pick up on Mark Urban's new thread.
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Re #233 threnodio
MS-Word's "smart quotes" always appear as ?s because of the character set here. Some other replaced character has clearly caused the problem.
There are quite a few nooks and crannies of the "Tools" menu where MS-Word assumes by default you want it to play fast and loose with the ASCII character set. Too many versions of Word exist to go into much more detail, but you might have something oddball set by default in the "Compatibility" section.
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The current electoral plight of New Labour, is because it's basically a mark 2 Tory Party; totally incapable of addressing the ever widenening wealth gap in our society. So it's their policies they need to change, NOT their Leader.
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Re #269 (power to the ppl)
You prove my point - suddenly your amazing £100BN black hole becomes a £6m drop in the ocean.
Seriously, that is absolute tuppence. £6m a year? You can win three times that amount on the euromillions lottery!
I mean what would £6 million buy you? A new school - maybe. A new hospital - no. Lots of staff - at best 300 wages? Northern Rock is firing four times that number in cut backs.
Seriously, put things into perspective and look at the big picture.
Otherwise you're at best nit-picking at worst spitting into the wind.
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I dont think Miliband should wait until Labour have lost the next election (which may or may not happen).
Brown appears to run Government "for the long term" as if he doesnt have to worry about the machinations of a democracy and the possibiity he may not be able to complete his intentions.
Tony Blair appeared to understand this , perhaps brown choses to ignore?
Anyway, if a new leader emerges, they'd be best calling for that election. There could be a John Major like re-election (back when labour looked good to finally take it)
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Re #240 oldnat
I knew we had something in common - mine's a Talisker too.
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#270 Barry
I was wrong about you initially!
However, you said
"But look at Italy, who use proportional voting"
It's dangerous to make comparisons with very different political structures. Where the body politic is fragmented (as in post-war Italy) with significant numbers voting for parties ranging from Communist to Fascist, and regional variations of some, then chaos seems inevitable.
In Scotland and Wales (with PR), and England (FPTP) each country seems currently to have a reasonable consensus on most social/economic issues (despite the posturings) - which wasn't true in the first three quarters of last century. In such cultures PR is advantageous, since no party can simply create its own agenda, and push it through regardless.
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#275
We've already got an SNP for England.... the Prime minister, 4 top cabinet ministers, the Speaker .... and over 150 MPs, not to mention the manager of Manchester Utd., are all Scots ... what more do you want ?
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#275 Alex is gonna be busy sorting out Scotland for a wee while, but im sure once he's done that he'd come and help you out as well .
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Well I'm off to bed peeps, the moderation is taking too long for my liking. See you all tomorrow for some more insightful discussion/Labour-bashing (more often than not the same thing!)
Ciao
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Re #236 dhwilkinson
We do agree on something after all. Note that I'm an old Liberal and so not in any sense of the word a Labour supporter of any description, but I do think it would be a shame for Labour to sink without trace, if only because I fear Cameron may not use his powers wisely if he wins a landslide.
I'm confident Brown has no chance of a come-back because he's lost the trust of the nation, so your question should be not whether he's replaced but who could minimise Labour's losses next time.
Anyone looking realistically at Labour's chances next time must see they're dire, especially bearing in mind the situation in Scotland where the minority SNP government can't seem to put a foot wrong while no opponent can put one right.
I see no way your party can win in that situation, but a caretaker leader could minimise the losses if he was prepared to say a small sorry about the past. If he publicly promised completion of devolution plus electoral reform, it would be an offer the LibDems could scarcely refuse. It might even result in a coalition govt, and would minimise Labour's losses.
The only person I can see in government now who could do that is Jack Straw. Arguably a few of your current back-benchers like Field could do it. Whoever emerges, if there is another coronation like Brown's the public will not stand it, and we'll all be subject to another 18 or so Tory years.
The only difference from last time is that quite soon both Scotland and Wales will likely cast themselves adrift from the UK, with the Labour government taking the blame for that in arrears and being out of power in England for decades.
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#275 TommyNobody
"I think we need an SNP party for England"
You have one - the English Democrats.
http://www.englishdemocrats.org.uk
OK, it's still at an early stage, and still based on the politics of grievance as the SNP once was, but work at it.
Alternatively, simply capture an existing party - The Labour Party might be a good capture, since it has no real purpose anymore.
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#285 rabbiehippo
It's wrong (but great fun) to mock the politically afflicted.
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Re #261 dhwilkinson
"Ulster Unionist, SDLP,SNP, Plaid Cymru etc. lib dem and Conservative. Have I missed any? do I care?"
Don't quite follow that, dhwilkinson.
All your previous posts indicated you were a labour supporter. Are you a Labour Unionist or an English Nat mole within their ranks?
PS: You did miss Sinn Fein and UKIP
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272 oldnat
Sorry but no I have not read the Evening Standard. Why do you assume I live in London? Englands a big place you know
I don't live in London. 1-1 draw I think. A balance of chips maybe?
Looked at it on the internet though and still don't know what you mean by balance of chips. I know its a retort to my "Chip on your shoulder" comment. But other than that I don't know.
Interesting it says a labour party MP said that Brown would look weak if he didn't sack Milliband. When Blair didn't sack Brown. When similar conspiracies against Blair by Brown were suggested. I think it would show weakness if he did sack Milliband. I think this leadership challenge stuff is all just journalists getting over excited. Nothing to it. Except that Milliband wants to be prime minister some time in the future. No suprise in that. David Davis also wants to be prime minister. So does every politician.
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There seems to be a fundamental contradiction running through David Miliband's article in the Guardian.
He says: "The starting point is not debating personalities but winning the argument about our record, our vision for the future and how we achieve it." He then reiterated the point in his press conference that "it is not about personalities..."
But he then goes on the attack against ... wait for it ... the PERSONALITY of David Cameron: "The problem with David Cameron ...etc". Funny... I thought it wasn't about personalities? OK, someone may argue that he needed to do that because he thinks the Tories have no policies. But if that is the case, that's all he needed to say. Why bother even mentioning Cameron (even if he conceded he was "likable"), if personalites are not important? And if he needed to name the name of the Tory leader, why not do the same for the leader of his own party? Bizarre.
So reading between the lines of his article, the Tories come out of it looking far more "human" (and therefore electable) than the dehumanised construct called Labour.
My conclusion: it's clear from this contradiction that personalities do matter, and DM made a special effort to suppress any mention of GB. Why? BECAUSE THE PROBLEMS OF LABOUR ARE CLEARLY PERSONAL.
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do you people not have lives or wives ... if it wasnt for the fact im working im sure id be sleeping by now and not blogging on internets sites .
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#290 what about Respect or the Green party. You need something nutty in the mix
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#291 dhwilkinson
I think you misunderstood. I made no assumption that you lived in London. I used the Evening Standard as an example of "chip" because of its regular distortion of spend in the regions and nations of the UK, as creating a London disadvantage.
There may not have been such an issue in tonight's edition, but it is a recurring theme. Incidentally, since you don't live in London, they probably want some of the resources spent in your part of England to be transferred to the English capital.
You seem to be surprised that it carried the story of 2 Labour MPs demanding Miliband's sacking (a story that has dominated the media all day). You think Davis wants to be PM - he doesn't. Not only did he say so, but demonstrated it by resigning his seat to fight a by-election, knowing that he would not be returned to the Shadow Cabinet.
Sorry, but your views do not seem to be illuminated by knowledge of the current political dynamic in your own country.
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Re #263 Eatonrifle
I agree it's late, and I'll be stopping myself fairly soon. No slur was intended - purely my observation of NuLab policies.
I'm heartened that you "would vote for PR without hesitation". Please tell your MP. I won't repeat my #287 but suggest you read it and consider whether that's a possible way forward.
I'll go along with your views on the party system. We're agreed that some "collective" decision-making is necessary but that it should be less rigid.
The Whigs were out for the best part of 50 years until they "saw the light" with electoral reform in 1832. I don't think it will take that long for Labour to recover, if that's any comfort.
In the event of a hung pariament, the $64,000 question is whether there was an electoral pact beforehand. If so, I would expect the LibDems to honour it scrupulously.
If not, the price of the LibDems going into coalition would be electoral reform and completion of devolution. Beyond that, anything would be possible. Less than that and they would support a minority government when it was right in their eyes and oppose it when it was wrong. The SNP win in 2007 was a culture shock to both Labour and the LibDems from which neither side has yet fully recovered - to the advantage of the SNP and they're still working it all out in practice in Holyrood right now. So far, this has allowed the SNP to implement more of their policies than could reasonably have been expected.
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Gordon Brown has made mistakes, but he should be given a chance. I would like to see him be strong about this - haul Milliband in and give him a roasting - let him know his chance will come (it surely will) but for the time being shut up and get behind the party. This situation can easily be turned around - Cameron's bunch are weaker than Kinnock's bunch in '93
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#293 rabbiehippo
Most of us are retired - hence our irascibility - and our wives are more than glad to have us out of their way!
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obviously I meant '83 - can't even remember '93 doh!
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Goodnight
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Labour began to get a grip on policy and connecting with the public back in the New Year, but the media heavily spun that into the ground. Every single attempt to get back to their feet has been met with another wall of media attack. I wouldn't mind if it were justified but this seems driven by spite.
I read Miliband's comment and it was spot on, and his motives for focusing on policies instead of personalities was spot on. It was a fantastic piece of communication. It presented something people could get their heads around but the media had to go and confuse that and wind people up.
I agree, comments on Labours leadership and allegations of weakness are just so much wind. People make claims and try to lay things on but this is just another form of control. This is "old politics". It's sad to see and just more reasons not to vote Tory or buy a newspaper.
It's things like this that make a Gordon Brown government more compelling for me. I believe in positive visions, teamwork, and the long-long view. It is written in spiritual texts that people both crave for and fight against the light. Perhaps, it is their shame that causes such manufactured fury.
As lucibee commented, I've seen journalists suck someone in then spit them out in a very cruel way just to "get the story". I'm thinking of one specific instance where a BBC TV journalist pulled this stunt. It was immoral and totally uncalled for. I was and remain shocked some years later by this.
I'm generally a non-partisan sort of guy and fit incredibly badly in any political party but this frenzy is actually making me think of biting the bullet and signing up with Labour. Gordon's THE MAN and, I figure, it's more meaningful than writing shit on the screen nobody reads. Dunno. If Caroline Flint agreed to marry me that might swing it.
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oldnat..... there you go using big words that i dont understand again ... good night min :o)}
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Re #268 oldnat
Thanks. Looked at it plus the BT thread but no sources quoted and nothing yet on snp.org.
It looks believable and clearly not unencouraging for the SNP. In particular 27% for Labour would be good on UK polls and the SNP would hardly overstate.
Have a nice gloat, but I'm off v. soon as its very late here. May see more info tomorrow, but certainly not good news for Southwolders.
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Re #270 yoctoBarryC
I agree 100% that democracy is the worst system, except for all the others, but everywhere in the EU democracy is less imperfect than in the Westminster parliament.
My #256 said "less than 25% of the electorate" and I stand by that. I accept that the percentage of votes is as you stated. The point is that many do not vote because they know their vote will not count.
So what re Italy? If the Italians don't like their system, they are at liberty to change it, and indeed they are lucky to be able to do so. We British citizens have no such rights.
I hope your point is not the racist view that Brits are somehow as hotheaded as Italians, unlike the sober Spanish, Portugese, Germans, Danish, Dutch, Belgians, etc. If it is not that, I do not understand it.
If fair voting is good enough to be imposed by our knights of the shires on the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly, the Northern Irish Assembly, the London Assembly and British Members of the European Parliament, why should those worthy burgesses not be elected on the same principles?
I hadn't come across "majoritarian" before. My OED doesn't have it but I see that Wikipedia does. I don't know who invented it or when, but it strikes me as newspeak for the perfectly good old fashioned word of plurality. France uses a simple majority system, often needing two rounds, rather like the system now used to elect London's mayor.
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Nick
he is testing the waters, to see if he has the ability to become the prime minister in the next general election in the united kingdom.
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Re #288 & #289 oldnat
And you accuse me of having a wicked streak!
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There's definitely differences in culture between different peoples. My take is Britain is a country with too much history and insularity, and the bullying management and 'not from our village' culture is holding us back. I'd cite Frank Whittle and Elvis Costello as two examples of people who've been pranged by that experience.
My view is that Gordon Brown's sense of purpose, teamwork, and the long-long view is what people like to claim as a goal. When it comes to achieving it they dig their heels in because they don't like change in spite of the benefits being clear as daylight. Then again, the world isn't crashing down around Britain's ears in spite of the doomsayers.
Gordon Brown could communicate better and be less awkward but that's nothing that can't be fixed with a little coaching and practice. Labour have a problem with clinging to their union history and infighting but, again, this is nothing that can't be fixed. If they 'live the dream' of purpose, teamwork, and the long-long term things will just come together.
I really think Gordon Brown should ditch the conference style scriptwriters and get some Hollywood guys in. By getting the right format and fitting the message instead of rolling off facts and ticking off lists, his comment and speeches would become instantly accessesible without losing their substance.
Labour MP's also need to get off their duff and become a presence on the ground. Talking politics in Westminister is great but with modern technology such as email, VOIP, and video conferencing, some of that workload could be lightened. With more time to get out DO things and MEET people they can connect where it matters.
Lastly, the most important thing is developing maturity. Sound reason, not getting emotional for the sake of it, and patience are key skills that help, but living life and listening to what reality says are the best teacher anyone can have. Once people grok this there's no turning back, and it's just as true for Tories, Liberals, and the rest of the pile.
As the teacher said, you gotta have faith. And I have faith in Gordon Brown. I have faith that people want to do the right thing and build a better world. I have faith that the media can be a plus as much as a minus. I have faith that the difficulties of today will overcome. I have faith and, maybe, a bit of faith in myself.
Gawd. I must be happy about something to write that lot.
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Hmmm ... how interesting. Found this on another blog. Looks like it is from Feb 07.
1 min 36 secs in.
http://www.guynews.tv/2007/02/miliblinking-gordon-gaffe.html
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Dear Nick
Labour are nothing but a bunch of has beens, they are useless.Brown , what a joke and Milliband what an even bigger joke, we dont need a change in leadership we need a change in Government.get the stupid idiots out.
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307 CEH
"My view is that Gordon Brown's sense of purpose, teamwork, and the long-long view..."
Dear Charles,
When that named this thread "Testing the Waters" I don't think they meant "Taking the urine."
The above comment is exactly what Brown doesn't do, and that is why he is abhored and subject to ridicule.
He has NO sense of purpose other than remaining PM.
He does NOT believe in team work otherwise he would not insist on making all the decision on his own.
And he does NOT have a lon-term view or strategy as has been proved over the past 12 months.
To claim any of these for Brown is frankly silly, as most on this board and a majority of the voters in the UK will confirm.
Keep trying. Very trying as you are!!!
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This is ridiculous! They are all queuing up to do the job. None elected for the role by the people.
What a shambles and what a mockery of democracy this government has become.
Is this the Yosser Hughes syndrome or what? "Go on, gissa job, I can do that!"
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leemchambers
I think I will throw my hat into the ring. At least I've got better qualifications than Brown and Miliband. I've actually worked for a living in the real world.
Just let me have the job for a few months and I'll happily resign with my excellent pension, leaving fee and a knighthood. I'll be set up for life with lots of directorships.
At that point, like Blair and the rest I shall be able to give two fingers to the UK and the population.
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I've just realised that, unlike me, I haven't posted about the failings of Miliband.
The answer is that he hasn't appeared on my radar, hasn't made any impact whatsoever, and quite honestly should return to prep-school where he belongs.
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Miliband is quite correct to advocate Labour MP's be the best MP's they can be. This welds him to the vision he advocates and removes him from any manufactured leadership squabble. It's very Zen. Do what you do with all your being. Love your job, reach out to other people, and allow success to accumulate by itself.
People make claims and lay things on but I've learned not to be bothered by it. Mostly, people harm themselves by doing it, and the more they do it the more narrow minded and unpleasant they become. In the end all they do is make you stronger while they destroy themselves. They could stop but people are rarely that wise.
By letting go, Labour will open its mind and heart to voters. People don't just want leadership or assistance, they want respect and love, and by giving this in unlimited quantities to whoever needs it, whenever they need it, and wherever they need it, their cup will run over and votes positively scamper into the box.
Mark Lawson may disagree but, I think, we are on the threshold of a new golden age. As vested interests try to talk everyone into a hole I just see opportunity, opportunity, and opportunity. Arguing and negativity just gets in the way but by embracing Labour's narrative we can all step up a gear and embrace it with both arms.
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Eaton:
"Anyone can shout for, call for, prey for an election any time they wish, I know i did in 1994/5/6 etc but had to wait the full 5 years.
Just like that I'm afraid. Fact not opinion"
John major was ELECTED in 1992 (unlike Brown and by the largest ever number of votes for a conservative by the way) to serve a full 5 year term. That is what the conservatives voted for in 1992. Guess what? He did what he was elected to do and served the full 5 years. Unlike Blair.
Since 2005, it now looks like labour are trying to ditch two failed leaders inside three years and you think that that is a party worth voting for?
Just like that I'm not afraid, FACT NOT OPINION!
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All
Wow watch the Video at 308 from WhiteSeas.
And remember, as any copper will tell you rapid blinking is a sign of lying.
You cant argue with the facy that Miliband was right about his prediction.
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Does anyone else see the physical similarity between Miliband and that stuffed toy monkey given out by PG Tips with their teabags?
I say 'physical' only because, intellectually, the monkey is in a different league!
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#307 CEH
Charles
Gordon Brown's sense of purpose and TEAMWORK ?!?
Are you serious ?
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How about a political party set up by us bloggers? Futility or a world first for better democracy?
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How about signing this 10 Downing Street petition for a general election now.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/GoToCountryNow/
And tell your friends.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The election term, role of Prime Minister, and votes cast is well known. Bringing it up in this topic is a red herring. Unless someone deliberately wants to confuse everyone else or get attention it's probably best saved for a more appropriate topic.
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I agree with the MPs who say Mr Miliband should be sacked for his devious, self-seeking approach: it hardly commends trust to the electorate.
He has hardly proved himself at a senior level: what Foreign Policy triumph has he personally achieved in his brief time in office? I can't think of any; most of what he has said was probably scripted by the full-time professionals in the Foreign Office. I was disappointed with the way in which he dealt with the evidence for extraordinary renditions and his bellicose stance towards Russia.
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Purpose, teamwork, and patience are useful skills worth developing whoever you are. That's why Miliband's focus, depersonalising issues, and pragmatic approach is a useful contribution. It's something the opposition parties and the media could learn from.
There's books and training courses on this stuff that are cheap enough and accessible to anyone. Heck, there's enough stuff on the net for free if anyone's interested. Why wait for Labour to pump your lungs for you? Get off your duff and read it yourself.
Because you're worth it.
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Whoever takes over from Brown has got their work cut out. We need strong political parties in this country to keep whoever is in power on their toes.
The danger, given Labours finances, is that the party could implode and be wiped off the map.
The first task of next labour leader is to save the party itself from oblivion.
I'm not a Labourite - so I'm asking those of you who are Labour supporters - wouldn't David's brother Ed Millband be better suited to uniting the party?
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322. Charles_E_Hardwidge
You are of course technically correct.
However, when you take into account that many of the population can not even name their MP, let alone know what they stand for, and the fact that most MPs just play follow the leader. The reality is that people vote for the leader of the party.
Therefore the points mentioned are not red herrings, but very real.
We had vote Blair get Brown (Tory Slogan) So scary was this that Balir promised to serve a full term. He didnt. So the Tory slogan became reality.
The populace were lied to.
I suspect Blair new what was coming and Balied out early. He is of course a politician to his boot straps.
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320. skynine
Superb, thank you.
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CEH
Miliband has probably bought some of those training books and is boning up before his leadership challenge.
I can't see what his purpose would be, other than to set himself up for life at our expense. Even if he gets to No.10, I can't see the general public changing their views about the Labour Party. They will lose the next election.
As for him being pragmatic - I think my previous paragraph speaks for itself.
If he does get the job, I wonder which post Brother Ed will get?!
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The reason Nu-Labour will lose
Is that we have discovered their ruse:
They're all in cahoots
To fill up their boots
Man, I got the Nu-Labour blues!
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Couldn't comment on that, but I'd suggest other ministers get with the programme. As backbenchers follow the lead, and it spreads out to the party in the country, this would kickstart a virtuous circle.
Ministers, backbenchers, and activists could all learn from each other. I'm sure there's a few star performers waiting to be discovered at all levels. When individuals and the whole work as one this maximises effectiveness.
I figure, if people gan begin to be more open minded, affable, and relaxed about things it's generally better. People love being listened to and want to feel they matter. Goes for all of us.
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CEH
I don't think Ministers, backbenchers and activists want to learn from each other. They are all in their own lucrative worlds.
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We can all live in a bubble so you're right in some ways but people can still want to be understood and connect. Dropping old habits and reactivity isn't easy but, sometimes, just giving yourself permission is enough. Most of the barriers are in our own minds most of the time. Being aware of this is at least the beginning of change.
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purpleDogzzz
'John major was ELECTED in 19921'
No Purple, I am sorry he was not. That is the whole point. Major was the elected leader of the Tories and was therefore appointed Prime Minister. We do not elect PMs directly. That is the whole point.
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#320 - skynine
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/GoToCountryNow
"Deadline to sign up by: 27 June 2009"
Gee, thanks.
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Common sense really. Who wants another useless PM (with bumfluff no less?):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/aug/01/gordonbrown.labour
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People say Mr Brown isn't as personable as some other politicians but I do think he is more statesmanlike than many of recent years. By this I mean he is noticeably more polite, courteous and inclusive at PMQs than he could be. In contrast, I wouldn't say Mr Miliband is significantly statesmanlike at the moment. He seems to be loyal to his wife, though, which is good (and contrasts to the previous Tory government).
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335. power_to_the_ppl
Hardly news.
Labour would be more popular with Grandy as PM and Trudy V at no 11.
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In the space of one parliamentary session, these Labour parasites will have provided three MPs with a Prime Minister's pension rights! Assuming, of course, that Clown McBrown is made to fall on his sword.
These failures should be sued for the damage they have done to this country, not rewarded with massive pensions.
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I was particularly interested in today's Telegraph poll on which way voters would vote with different combinations of potential PMs. The result, as a percentage, was
Cameron 47 Brown 25
Cameron 47 Miliband 24
Cameron 47 Straw 24
Cameron 41 Blair 31
This would suggest that Labour are on a hiding whichever non-entity they choose, and their best chance would be to bring Blair back.
That really is a desparate state of affairs.
And Miliband has less chancce than Brown. Wow!!!
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re: 337
Lol they probably would! I reckon grandy should go for it, 'Lies-N-Spin' (TM) always sounds sweeter in a Welsh accent!
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re: 338
We should fumigate the Houses of Parliament just after luring everybody there with the juicy bait of 'a vote on a 50 percent salary increase'.
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Gordon Brown hasnt half lost a lot of weight since taking on the job so im sure it must be stressful but its good to see him looking fitter. Maybe Nicholas Soames should be the new Labour leader. Just because hes Tory shouldnt keep him from applying and hey it get him back into those 36inch trousers that are at the back of his wardrobe. :o)}
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#324 CEH
Charles
Thank you for patronising me but I am well aware of the value of teamwork, thank you very much.
What I'm not used to is seeing it mentioned in the same sentence as Gordon Brown. He has positive attributes but even his most ardent supporters would not include team player or even team leader on the list.
Perhaps I misread your reference to "Gordon Brown's sense of purpose, teamwork, and the long-long view - - " as associating Gordon with teamwork. If so, I aoplogise. On reflection that would have been a bit of a stretch - even for you at your most esoteric. I would suggest that you direct your wise advice on the value of teamwork to Gordon though taking care not to hold your breath waiting for a positive response.
As it happens, I agree with you that much of what David Miliband said makes sense, though mostly at high, motherhood and apple pie level. Most of the fire he has drawn from the media and some fellow Labour MPs has been about what they say he really meant, as opposed to what he actually said. I have to leave that to the occupants of the Westminster village who seem to have the ability to read between the line of a one line statement and who may well be right or wrong, if it matters.
I know I said at #53 that I would wean myself off your contributions but it may take time and invlove some recidivism on my part before I kick the habit of rising to your bait.
By the way, I notice that your #56 piece seems to have got stuck at the moderators. Hopefully not caused by my attempt at a bit of banter provoking you into a non-Zen like response, too sharp for the sensitive their taste ?
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I think the following quote from the Grauniad summs up the general feeling (GA and CEH excepted)
"A YouGov poll in today's Daily Telegraph shows only 15% of voters believe Brown is up to the job. Sixty-five per cent of voters say Brown is a liability for Labour, up from 25% in June last year when he took office. Forty-four per cent of people say Labour's electoral prospects would improve if Brown were removed, but there is no evidence in the poll that Labour's ratings would improve immediately if Jack Straw or David Miliband became leader."
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David Miliband showing his hand is either very brave or very stupid; as mikepko's post #339 shows, current polls suggest Labour will lose the next election regardless of the leader, so why make the change. However, these are current polls, if a new leader emerged who had coherent and sensible policies, which he or she stuck to, rather than blowing in the wind like the present incumbent, perhaps some of the damage could be mitigated. We view it as inevitable that Labour will be defeated at the next election but this election could be as late as the 29th April 2010, this leaves a lot of time for things to change, particularly the world economic situation; a slump in oil prices due to a speculative bubble bursting, liquidity returning to the mortgage markets, food price inflation reducing or reversing as more land is placed under cultivation and all troops returning from Iraq and/or Afghanistan, would this not reflect well on a new leader (regardless of whether he or she had much of a hand in them)? For Gordon Brown the damage is done, his illusion of competency has been destroyed and his image of wavering is now so firmly entrenched that the electorate will be unable to forget it. Labour must have a new leader to stand any chance in the next election and even then, an awful lot of things have to go in their favour for this chance to be real.
Perhaps a new leader could be brave and consider the next election lost already and instead concentrate on ensuring the policies they put in place are the very best thing the country needs rather that quick populist measure to try to gain electoral advantage. A leader brave enough and strong enough to do that might almost deserve voting for in 2010.
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Sorry, got my figures a little wrong. Only saw them in the papaer shop!! Tjhis is frpom the Telegraph website
"With Mr Miliband as leader, Labour scores 24 per cent against 47 per cent for the Conservatives. Under Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, the figures are 24-45. Were Ed Balls, the Schools Secretary, to take over, Labour would fall to 17 per cent, in third place behind the Liberal Democrats on 18 per cent and the Conservatives on 50 per cent.
In fact, the only Labour figure who could significantly narrow the gap with the Tories is the man the party forced out of office last year: Tony Blair. Yet even with Mr Blair as leader, Labour would trail the Conservatives by 32 per cent to 41 per cent."
Its very gratifying that with Balls as potential PM the Conservatives soar to 50%. He must be one of the least liked cabinet members in what is a pretty poor lot.
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~339 mikepko
You might be a bit previous about writing off Miliband's prospects of doing better - or should that be less bad - than Brown.
I would think the Telegraph poll did not take account of any effect of Miliband's initiative of the last couple of days. I listened to him on the Vine programme and thought he came across as quite natural, comfortable, personable and plausible - but maybe appearing a bit geeky/train-spotterish in front of cameras. Poor old Gordon won't live long enough to match him on those grounds, except the last one, and I think Miliband might just do better than Brown in closing the gap in the polls if he tajes over.
However the real problem for whoever leads Labour is that his or her task will be to persuade people to vote FOR Labour. For Cameron, on the other hand, it is not so much about having to persuade people to vote for the Conservatives as it is about avoiding disturbing their clear current intention to vote against Labour.
On top of that is the strong possibilty that the process of changing leader would very likely be divisive and do some damage - irrespective of who emerges as leader.
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The two labour mp's who i dislike in particular are Harriet Harman and David Milliband. Both of them appear smarmy and seam to think they are the bees knees to me. If either of these two power hungry people who would do anything for a chance at the top got the job I would be willing to emigrate!
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Can anyone furnish us with details of how much a leadership election dents a parties standings in the polls.
Just thinking aloud here but if there is a fight and Labour drop say 5% in the polls that would put them at around 22% theaat would mean the have a clear 20% to make up instead of the current 15%
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The trouble with the Labour Party is that while they have an overabundance of would-be Brutuses and are led by a Hamlet, they appear to lack a Caesar.
Perhaps the would-be assassins should remember that the dagger which killed Hamlet was poisoned and that the treachery recoiled upon the one who wielded it.
No doubt, it will be interesting to who the eventual Fortinbras will be upon whom the election lights.
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The trouble with the Labour Party is that while they have an overabundance of would-be Brutuses and are led by a Hamlet, they appear to lack a Caesar.
Perhaps the would-be assassins should remember that the dagger which killed Hamlet was poisoned and that the treachery recoiled upon the one who wielded it.
No doubt, it will be interesting to see who the eventual Fortinbras will be upon whom the election lights.
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Amusingly there was hardly a word of support for Miliband, Brown or what's left of the Labour party on here earlier on. It absolutely staggers me how anyone could defend the Labour party's conduct while in office. The current PM is by far the worst PM I can ever recall (he lacks the honesty and decency that Major had) and it was obvious that he is only in it for his own stubborn self interest.
Remember when he pretty much ignored the good of the country by throwing tantrums and sulking until Tony Blair got fed up? If they had held a general election at that point you would have an idea of his popularity. i.e. nil
As it is, he will drag the rest of the Labourites down with him, having bullied them into believing he's the best they've got. Its not fooling any of us actual voters and the sound of nuLab's fall will reverberate around the political landscape for decades to come once the election is over. Both Brown and Miliband will serve only as footnotes which history will aptly want to forget about because they were both found to be without merit.
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A refreshing change indeed!
Now it's been seen what a hyped-up person Gordon Brown is will we see more rats fleeing the sinking ship.
This is what happens when you 'hand' a post to somebody who doesn't merit it.
Let's see some proper candidates step up and make politics interesting again!
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Many thanks for the links above, but both the Grauniad and the Telegraph only give us the "Janet & John" version of the YouGov poll.
For full details from YouGov in PDF format, click on Summary and/or Details.
Despite it being a small sample, the regional voting intentions make particularly interesting reading although the lumping together of the Midland and Wales does not help us to gauge who the Lab/Plaid coalition is being judged by the people, but the Scottish figures putting the SNP 14% ahead of Labour will put a smile on many of the usual suspect on the Brian Taylor blog.
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#339. I think the polls bear out what commonsense tells us: that the idea of a Miliband Premiership is highly unlikely to revive the party's fortunes. In my own estimation it'll make them worse.
Without wanting to be unnecessarily rude to the Lib Dem leader (Clegg) - Miliband comes across as even worse. He even comes across as a little affected; perhaps this comes from acquiring a senior position at a young age, and thus with a point to prove.
It does seem rather odd that Miliband is being touted at all, since the logic seems to be they need someone with a personality and ability to communicate - a PR person - something they accuse Cameron of. However, I would say that Miliband really has neither of those things.
The real problem is of course: if not Gordon then who else? Junking Gordon for someone else who is bound to fail comes across as a bit of a nitwit idea, as it goes.
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352. At 12:41pm on 01 Aug 2008, DavidSchmitz @352,
All the deaths in Hamlet were among Danes. Fortinbras, who takes over, was a Norwegian.
It's obvious, therefore, that Fortinbras is David Cameron.
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About 99% of this blog is character assassination and bait. It's barely worth reading or responding to. I'm sure you think it's important but outside this bubble nobody cares. People can hype themselves into a frenzy but it won't change a thing.
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Miliband's first choice of career was bus conductor. Would Boris please pull his finger out and get the Routemasters back on the road.
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Miliband may have been showing a previously well hidden astutness in his "sounding out".
Scenario as I see it today.
JimBrant comes back from Southwold. Moves Miliband to the back benches. Miliband can wash his hands of the election loss train wreck thats on his way.
Friday 13th June 2010 launches his leadership campaign.
Yes it truly will be on Friday 13th He may even change his name to Jason and start wearing a ski mask
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Re #359 woodfordhalse
LOL
I suggest you share that brilliant suggestion of how to provide suitable job opportunities to the young on Nick's new holiday thread.
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Politicians are forever quoting the Democratic Process so let the people decide between Cameron and the Labour contender whoever he or she may be.
In the interest of all concerned in this country and for our damaged reputation overseas let this be in the next four weeks. Not possible I hear you say - if there is a will there is a way
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358. Charles_E_Hardwidge
About 99% of this blog is character assassination and bait. It's barely worth reading or responding to. I'm sure you think it's important but outside this bubble nobody cares. People can hype themselves into a frenzy but it won't change a thing.
Charles; the irony here is beyond comment.
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#363
Carrots Re :
Charles; the irony here is beyond comment.
As the advertising men would say - This is not just irony, its CEH Zen irony.
The air on planet CEH is too rarefied for me. I should not have gone back after my #53 visit and won't do so again.
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I have a question to other posters on this blog; will we have a new Prime Minister by Christmas? I know I hope we will but I suspect that Brown might hang on and an early election is extremely unlikely isn't it?
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Just a historical question.
If Miliband took over from Brown, would he be the first Jewish PM since Disraeli?
I did have hopes of Oliver Letwin as such.
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364. Only jocking wrote:
I cant read any longer, its like an alternative reality. only caught 358 because it was unusually short.
Interestingly 358 has been taken down.
I wonder if the irony was too much to bare so he complained about his own comment.
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re: 365
Possible but who knows, Labour are toast whatever they do so they might not risk it. That said, if they don't risk it they might end up being rather more toasted than if they'd put a new PM in his place! But if they do replace Brown the clamour for a General Election will be even louder than it is now. I think they'll probably flip a coin, that's how they've been governing this country for 11 years!
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Polls make it quite clear - voters have fallen out of sympathy with Labour, to a considerable degree because of Gordon Brown and the incompetence of his government.
Replacing the son of the manse with someone with the all asuteness and gauche naivete of a school prefect (and also happens to look like one) won't help.
They are doomed - unless Straw takes over now, restructures the Cabinet, institutes an immediate review of public finances with a view to reducing tax incidence, reshapes policy in key areas (immigration, crime and policing, social security, foreign affairs) with clean hands, and moves half the current Cabinet to the Lords or the backbenches. The right timing, tone and leadership could halt their slide in the polls.
But they would still only be reversing a lack of faith in their government; 'putting our house in order' is hardly a vote-winning manifesto...
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#367
Carrots
Like you, I'm giving Charles a miss henceforth, at least in terms of responding, which I've only ever done occasionally.
I'm still not sure if he is serious or a wind up merchant. Free thinking/surreality versus logic/reality or weapons of mass distraction. Who knows ? Who cares ?
Either way, he's good at it but I'm afraid it that, for me, it has gone from being provocative and quite entertaining to irritating and daft. That probably says more about my lack of imagination than it does about the thought processes of Charles.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Whether it was Thatcher, Major, Blair or Brown, Prim Ministers should be capable of defending themselves especially their own records.
One should not expect colleagues to come to their aid because they are unpopular. I never agreed with this and still don't!
This does not mean that people should simply jump ship, because the whole Capitalist system that we like (and enjoyed) is sinking.
Reason being that the other side would make a much bigger mess, as they did when we did not have the present global economic disasters.
As Nick says, (A week is a very long time in politics).
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Well, I tend to think I'm more sober than not. This blog has become more like a poor mans version of PMQ's. Some people may enjoy that but it's not to my taste.
On the issue of the topic, a newly confident Labour Party is likely to give the Tories a run for their money and hit them where it hurts. This is sad but necessary.
I'm generally confident Labour will remain in government, and the opposition and media will have to deal with that. Hopefully, better government will encourage some useful change in them as well.
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oldnat@295
Nice of you to stick of for the new 2 Davids. Maybe with your help. The Conservatives will win and you will win your referendum. Why did Davis hold that election he couldn't lose? Very risky! ;) why did he sacrifice his job for a dodgy populist "Big brother is watching you" case other than to raise his profile.
Anyway assume most MPs are ambitious and want to be Prime minister. Maybe Milliband is setting himself up not for now but in the future as a leader. But I think Nick Robinson wants to keep his viewers on tenterhooks over his holiday. Make sure they don't drift off. That's just my view of course.
I don't live in London I live about 60 miles from the Scottish border. Similar political problems with a complacent Labour party and the Conservatives. The only difference being we can't run away like you can.
No I am not an expert on politics neither are most people on here. Most people on here are comments page stereotypes too busy throwing around childish insults. Not unlike Cameron. I suppose they get the leader they deserve.
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Who can say what was in Miliband's mind. Perhaps, not even Miliband knows for sure. What I can say is is comment and depersonalising issues was useful. If people can make something of it the Labour Party will be better off.
Hopefully, an improved Labour Party will put the pressure to improve back on the opposition and media as, I think, they need to grow up as well. These things go around in circles and take time but a more mature politics is worth having.
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Be careful with Hamlet analogies - Young Fortinbras (whom Old Fortinbras can no longer contol) and who poses the greatest threat to the Danish Establishment takes over without a fight.
The dying Hamlet annoints Young Fortinbras as his successor and heir. I really cannot foresee Gordon Brown doing that to David Cameron...
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This could be nipped in the bud if Gordon Brown had 'cojones'. IF.
He hasn't though and as a result Labour, who now have no chance of winning the next election, will stagger on to a bigger and bigger defeat.
If GB were a brave man, he would publicly demand that all his ministers stand up and openly support him, or he will take that as their resignation and have done with them.
Trouble is, he's not brave enough to do that and the likes of the lightweight pipsqueak Millipede know it. Millipede should be able to be squashed with ease, unfortunately we have a leader who lacks the basic ability of a leader - that of imposing his will on his cabinet.
Labour will lose badly in 2010. As to a replacement leader? That will have to come from who ever is left standing.
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Prognosis:
David Miliband: Marxist Tory, political scientist. Neural network matrix is still forming in a political vacuum between ears. Extrovert reckless.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7535838.stm
Professional politician. Closet republican. Completely out of touch with Labour working class rank and file. Has never seen a flat cap?
Dr Gordon Brown, PhD: History academic, Tory, opportunist politician, a member of the Scottish cabal that commandeered the Labour party executive. Neural network errors resulting in diminished common sense and anxiety. Introvert, reckless.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2007/jun/27/highereducation.politics
Professional politician. Closet republican. Completely out of touch with Labour working class rank and file. Has a flat cap but never wears it?
Prospect:
Vote Tory and have a Tory official opposition at the next general election.
Conclusion:
Why do we vote for political party leaders that are academics with no life experience outside of privilege? Answer: We deserve it because we are so politically shallow and self-seeking as a nation.
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#379 Mad_Mad_Max
But what does David Miliband stand for? What does David Miliband believe? Has Anybody any clear idea, or is he just another David Cameron clone? (New Labour = New Conservative - both struggling for the mythical centre ground!)
Someone said David Miliband was a 'Marxist' - if he's a Marxist then David Cameron is one too! Marxists have a underlying philosophy unlike all of our politicians! Marxists actually believed in something!
Calling people 'Marxists' as some kind of attempt at smearing them is both an insult to them, Marxists and about all, to yourself. Marxists cared deeply about people and society - I see no evidence that any of our 'leaders' care about much except themselves!
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If a new leader came onboard this year, can anyone envisage them calling a snap election?
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380 John-from-Hendon:
Unfortunately too many Marxists cared more about 'society' in the abstract than about 'people' in the concrete. Furthermore, they weren't immune to the delights of the good life (and still aren't). When Marxism was fashionable they were Marxists when Postmodernism was fashionable they were Postmodernists. So talking about Marxists and Marxism is pretty pointless really, because even within Marxism, the term Marxism is an 'essentially contested concept'. No one knows quite what it means, and few people nowadays care. It's like the term sustainability, a 'non- term' but not without its uses.
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382 doctor-gloom
Essentially my point is that name calling is a playground activity. I agree that portraying David Cameron and David Miliband as further to the right than Genghis Kahn is just as silly as calling them Marxists.
The trouble is that they have no discernible policies or belief systems. Their only desire is to be 'personalities' and 'celebrities' and are scared rigid of the idea that they should express any policy or belief lest the voters can make a reasoned choice between them. (The UK Obama /McCain pitch?)
I am not implying that the parties are actually identical just that they wish to appear that they are identical. They are insulting the voters!
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Off topic Nick, and for what it's worthe, I feel the importance of this one is being missed by the media, namely the "proposed/being considered" state funeral of Margaret Thatcher, and what that means to many Scots.
For many, many Scots, the thought of "paying tribute" to Margaret Thatcher is unthinkable, and the thought of their taxes being used to pay for some of it a serious bone of contention.
It would serve to highlight further division between Scotland and England, and the disadvantage it would cause unionist parties in Scotland should not be underestimated or, as it has been, underreported.
There, glad I got that off my chest.
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re: 384
Yep I agree. It's a double whammy: (1) yet another waste of taxpayer's money and (2) honouring the hated Thatch (though personally I think she's ace, hehe). Labour would just be handing the SNP an even bigger stick to clobber them with, which can only be a good thing in the long run.
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After eleven years there is truly a total loathing fof these pathetic creatures currently in government
Such was the amount of trust placed in them in 1997 and the result is the undoubted result of the next Genereal Election. They will be thrashed by the Conservatives whenever it should be called.
It matters not whom should be their leader they will be lost in the wilderness- hopefully forever.
The danger for David Cameron is that he must not run the risk of failing us. He must not fail us. The burden on that man and his party is enormous
Should he fail the United Kingdom it could well spell the end of of our Parliamentary system and democracy.
The Westminster Village as you Nick that tedious left wing Labour suporter choose to call it, is too closely knit. It is a club of "your turn - my turn" politics. You Nck are a relentless purveyor of this destructive force.
You are not a free agent, in fact I would say that you represent this shambolic government in a puppet fashion. You Sir, should be dismissed.
Take care because the likes of you, BLIAR, Brown, the inferior creatures such as Harman, Blears and Milli are dangerous people playing a dangerous game with our freedoms
You should all understand this is serious business and it could destroy us all
Do you really need to spout so much in their support. Are you paid by others than by us at the BBC
When you all are satisfied what exactly do you think that we will be left with for the future - will there be even hope?
As we have seen throughout history democracy is a delicate flower, Don't be misled because it has survived for so many years in our United Kingdom. Take care because whatever you may replace it with (even inadvertanly) when you have all finished playing the fool, you may well find it to be even more unbearable than under this wretched miserable failue of a Government.
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I've been pondering why the period from 1990 to 2007.............the last 17 years..............have seen more and more the nation becoming dependants of the state and our standing in the world in slow decline.................... because we've had ineffective leadership.......Major, Bliar, Brown...................they simply didn't believe in anything passionately enough other than hanging onto power!
Who within minutes of being elected party leader issued the following words which were spoken at a press conference when describing what qualities needed for poltical leadership?
........."A Conservative philosophical quality. A distinctive Conservative philosophy. Oh, you don't win by just being against things, you only win by being for things and making your message perfectly clear.
Same Questioner
For what?
For a free society with power well distributed amongst the citizens and not concentrated in the hands of the state. And the power supported by a wide distribution of private property amongst citizens and subjects and not in the hands of the state.
She knew exactly what she believed in from the first few minutes...........the rest is history..............
Brown, Blair, Major were/are just vacuous political lightweights.
We need a heavyweight................and Milbandwagon ain't that!
Lets put the state funeral on hold and bring back the Blessed Margaret by Royal Decree!!!!!!!!!
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Doesn't good taste count for anything any more? Despite one's political views, it is distasteful and crude to discuss a planned funeral when the person in question is still alive. There are several politicans I would happily see despatched to their eternal punishment, but I have the discretion and decency to abstain, keeping my thoughts for sleepless nights, subjecting victims as a substitute for counting sheep. May Maggie have a very long, healthy and happy life!
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Well guys they call this the silly season and on these blogs it's certainly living up the to that title.
I have never read so much drivel that I have read on here from tory supporters of all colours since I gave up reading the Dandy and the Beano when I was ten year old I expected a little elation after the Glasgow election and as I said earlier I didn't blame you for that.
What I am suprised at is that some of you guys who were lucky enough to have a better education than I and yet your posts are like the stuff children write on toilet walls and the poems almost as bad.
If you want to critisise any member of the government, thats fine but do try to use a modicum of diplomacy and without what appears to be the mentality of a five year old when trying to find new names to try to discredit certain individuals. it doesn't in any way discredit them it merely makes you rather childish and a little foolish.
As I have said before once is funny more than once is boring and unfunny.
I am quite sure that if this stupid rheteric continues we will lose more bloggers off here already some have moved away owing to the ridiculous writing of some bloggers.
And I am sure that some of you would regret that but not the nutters of course.
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388 phoenixarison, there hasn't been too much good taste shown on these blogs for quite a while and I am afraid your no exception.
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390
I agree there hasn't been much good taste of late, and I am no exception. I didn't mention names or point to specific bloggers, but you've taken your gloves off, so I will do likewise. I may have been vulgar, childish, lacking taste, et al, but at least I didn't display political idiocy. You, together with the remnants of Brown's supporters are naturally hurt and bruised. More agro is on the way with the Milliband/Harman axis. so no doubt your priggishness and lack of humour will rise with the bile as you read the comments, not just of bloggers, but of ordinary citizens sick to death of this politically correct mess of a government. Well sir, the bell has just gone for the first round. Round two, no doubt will come up very soon!
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Obviously Milliband is being disloyal by his blatant leadership bid, but it's difficult for beleaguered Labour MPs to know what to do for the best. Should they stick with Brown and his disastrous policies, or change direction and admit they have been wrong?
As Labour clearly has difficulty selecting its leaders, perhaps a Big Brother / I'm A Celebrity style reality TV show would be the answer. Viewers could then vote off the candidates they don't like.
Whatever the end result, it couldn't be any worse than what we have at the moment.
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Post 389. Grandantidrab!
Get over yourself!!!
Who gave you the right to take on such a high and mighty position in relation to other peoples views and comments?
You sound incredibly haughty as though you are looking down your nose at everyone else on here for your self-appointed superior position.....making judgements on the content of peoples entries.
Maybe you should re-connect with the concept of "Blogging".........which is essentially FREE SPEECH!
"A blog is a personal diary. A daily pulpit. A collaborative space. A political soapbox. A breaking-news outlet. A collection of links. Your own private thoughts. Memos to the world."
I rest my case!
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Hey Grandantipasta!
Forgot to say..............
So you're threatening todisconnect from the internet in a hissy fit unless we can all improve our entries on here?
Well do it!
Bet you don't though cos you love the attention you're now getting......
Let's see guys ...........
I predict he won't!!!!!!!!! And then we'll all know why!
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Phoenixarisen and NorthernThatcherite are spot on I'm afraid grandy, you need to chill out and stop trying to defend a corrupt and collapsed government. The only reason why you are getting so irritated is because you know that we are right. Look, we know Labour have done *some* good things, but the endless mistakes, spin, lies and rotten policies they have inflicted on us far outweigh them. This cannot be questioned!
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So, Gordon has a Minister who wants his job and is showing him a remarkable lack of support. Where have we seen this before. Didn't a certain G Brown spend 10 years doing the self same thing to Tony Blair?
He can therefore surely have no qualms with someone who has watched him, learned from him and put into practice his methods?
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re: 396
That's what sensible people would conclude. Unfortunately Nu-Labour's mantra is 'do as I say, not as I do!'
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This is mostly down to petty point scoring and pack behaviour. You can see a similar thing at PMQ's. The Prime Minister has made a stand against this but has been temporarily disrupted and upset by Tory bullying and media hysteria. I expect he has learned from this and will be much more confident and relaxed going forward.
By firmly taking the high ground the Tories charge will be halted and media cruelty will evaporate. This will put the more irresponsible opposition and media on the backfoot. Less of their ego getting in the way will help the Prime Minister address and be seen to address peoples genuine concerns, and reach out to them more directly.
This recent storm has been an excellent learning opportunity for Labour. By acknowledging their mistakes, correcting them, and trying again, they raise their own quality. This makes them a much better government while the Tories and media are left with nothing but their own arrogance and uncorrected failings to deal with. I expect the polls to adjust accordingly.
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391 Pheonixarisen, Now I've upset you. I am sorry, its alright you carry on with your playmates making up silly names and even more silly poems
You want proof of the rather strange interllect of some bloggers just look at 393 and 394 and see the way that he has addressed me, now do you think thats a grown up blogging or do you think it may be a little lad who has sneaked on here when his dads not looking?.
You say I''ve taken my gloves off, believe me you would see a big difference if I had.
All that I have attempted to do is to bring a few of you guys who used to have fairly sensible debates on here back to some semblance of reality, as I've said on a number of occassions I can understand that labours problems are giving you great delight and I dont blame you one bit but come on fellers a little common sense now.
You say that you didn't display political idiocy but you and your friends are doing that on a daily basis, read back through some of the blogs and see for your self, dont take my word for it.
What you have to remember is that your perception of political Idiocy is in direct contrast to mine.
Incidentally I am neither hurt or bruised I'm made of much sterner stuff than that and neither am I priggish or lacking in a sense of humour its just that my sense of humour rises above watching the same comedy show every night for a week.
Please dont ring the bell for round two I am much too afraid of your great interllect to get in the same ring as you. That is of course in your dreams.
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@333 When Thatcher was ousted that the parliamentary party held a leadership election, when Major "threw his hat in the ring" the other candidates stood down and the whole parliamentary conservative party supported his election. Following this, he set about changing policies and then fought a general election that labour and the media pundit's predicted he would lose. In that General election in 1992, he secured more conservative votes than even Margaret Thatcher secured at her most popular. Then during the mid term collapse of his support, he held another leadership election which he won easily. He then called another general election in 1997 that he lost, a lot!
But you seem to be referring to precedent in which the prime minster can be replaced mid term without a general election?
I have written why Brown can legally and constitutionally be unelected as PM, BUT, Tony Blair promised a FULL Third term and then was ousted mid term
The labour government put forward a manifesto, under which Gordon Brown was elected to his seat, in which the Blair Government promised a referendum on the EU charter.
That is what 22% of the UK population voted for in 2005, only 3 years later, we ended up with a useless and disintigrating pack of in-fighting egotists "led" by Brown who has abandoned the manifesto upon which he was elected to be an MP . He has NO electoral mandate to do that whatsoever. In other words, what tiny sliver of a mandate labour had in 2005, Brown has rejected and spit upon.
Now, for the second time inside only 18 months, the government is on the verge of collapse and is this time looking desperately for any way out that it can, It is kneejerking helplessly and casting around for any ideas SO LONG AS that does NOT involve any sort of democratic legitamacy or democratic mandate whatsoever.
Changing the country's PM twice in 18 months without an election is unprecedented in the last 100 years plus.
If you think that this is anyway to run a political party, let alone a country, then that is a very telling example of why labour and their supporters are utterly unfit to be involved in politics at all.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Thanks mikepko for the polls data.
eaton asked me who elected ME to say what the people of this country think?
Well, 1 I would ask, WHO ELECTED BROWN TO RUN THE COUNTRY? Oh yeah NOBODY!!!
And 2, I am merely reflecting what opinion poll after opinion poll and what I hear all the time in my northern working class, formerly safe labour constituency. I am writing what, according to all the polls, are the feelings of the overwhelming majority of the people of this country.
eaton, there is no fear that your IQ will rise enough for you to be able to sell yet is there?
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395 powertotheppl, I found it rather amusing that you finished this post with the words "This cannot be questioned!"
and yet in your next post you say,397 Unfortunately Nu-Labour's mantra is 'do as I say, not as I do! now come on ppl you cant have it both ways,
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400 purpledogzz although I dont agree with you that the government is any thing like on the verge of collapse I am curious to know when you thought the government was on the verge of collapse before, you haven't been wrapping yourself in foil and putting your mums collander on your head and talking to those friends of yours again have you.
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A lot of the comments in here revolve around crude power and relationship games, as much "clever" name calling and negativity that can be squeezed into one comment, and a whole slew of stuff that's off topic or rambling. This smacks of lion cubs testing their strength than maturity.
I have no idea how old people are. As far as I know they're pensioners or school kids dizzy on the excitement of experiencing the internet for the first time. I think, the example set at PMQ's and by others around here tends to encourage people in the worst direction. Better examples can help.
Nobody is going to give you a knighthood or send you a cheque for posting comments. It just doesn't happen. Folks in a lot of industries may monitor and contribute to online discussion. They can pinch the good stuff and measure the tone, but nothing is going to jump a decision or get you a free pass.
The best thing people can do, really, is just write the best comment they can and be sociable. If cleverness and negativity is kept at the margins it tends to be much more readable and less prone to attract the wrong sort of company. It may have less "bling" and "buzz" but is more enjoyable and meaningfull overall.
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Grandatidote you rant about others ranting and then complain about people calling names...and then refer to people as nutters!!!
Do you see a pattern? You sir, are a hypocrite. and as you STILL seem determined to support labour, even as they are rendered paralysed by egotostical infighting and rank incompetence, a party that has effectively collapsed into dissaray twice inside 18 months, you are clearly a nutter too.
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Grandantidote: "you haven't been wrapping yourself in foil and putting your mums collander on your head and talking to those friends of yours again have you."
So you admit that you are having hallucinations now? I have never worn tinfoil in my life, nor promoted it, but then that is more of your "insulting drivel" instead of reasoned debate isn't it?
GROW UP!!!
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"I am curious to know when you thought the government was on the verge of collapse before,"
When ministers were resigning and other more senior ministers were threatening to resign unless Blair gave notice to resign??? Remember that?
You know, the last time the Conservaives were leading the polls in the spring of 2007.
If Blair has stood his ground, the men in suits were to be called in, remember?
I guess not, labour supporters have an altered version of reality I guess.
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407 purpledogzzz you didn't answer the question.
With regard to the nutters I never mentioned any names but as they say if the cap fits wear it,
I'll be interested to know where I admit to having hallucinations.
I have grown up in fact I am starting to grow down now.
I would also be interested to know at what point in what I thought was a reasonable post you consider that I was ranting, cool down old chap your getting far to excited!
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408 purpledogzzz You must not let your imagination run away with you try to keep within the bounds of credibility, the events you discribe never happened only in your head.
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Pheonixarisen@391 (our moral guardian)
"Doesn't good taste count for anything any more?....."
"...There are several politicans I would happily see despatched to their eternal punishment,.." Eternal punishment! are you religeous?
I wonder which people you want to see dead? Not very {insert religeon}.
More hypocrisy, like telling labour voters to shut up while preaching "freedom of speech". Like NorthernThatcherite@394 More hypocrisy.
"Bet you don't though cos you love the attention you're now getting......"
Like the attention he gets calling himself NorthernThatcherite.
The worst thing we could do from your point of view is leave you "illiberal righties" alone for a while unchallenged reassuring yourselves of your superior knowledge and morality. It would soon revert to anti immigration anti EU, xenophobic hatefilled rants and cameron wouldn't be happy with that!
The labour commenters are dropping off and making fewer comments. and it is already starting to happen. Also look at HYS pages where lab/lib commenters struggling with one membership have long given up and that is definately a waste of the internet.
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This is nothing new. As long as people's default position is reasonable, it's fine to challenge some of the views and pack behaviour around here. However, people have to stay calm and not get sucked into ranting or namecalling themselves, or allowing troublemakers to set the agenda.
Alan Sugar's presentation during a BBC interview is a good example if anyone wants to follow it. I'm a great fan of teaching management and communication skills from top to bottom, and some folks may find his approach something worth practicing. You don't have to be great, just avoid the dumb mistakes.
I know I keep banging on about leadership, teamwork, and the long view but a better Britain isn't just down to politicans and media. It's down to ordinary folks taking a position, working with other people, and looking beyond short-term difficulties. Get this right and success comes soon enough.
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389 grandqantidote
You gave up reading the Dandy and Beano!! You fool, they are closer to reality than Gordon Brown. I still read them.
My favouriste however, was always the Eagle becuse of Dan Dare and the cut-aways of things like steam engines and power stations.
I suggest you go back to comics get get a sense of humour and a taste for the real world.
PS I see Gordon still has his jacket on. A real man of the people????
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grand, I quoted your hallucination in the same comment to you, can you not read? (may wearing a collendar) I have never worn a collendar on my head in my life. Therefore you must be hallucinating, or, merely hurling childish, baseless, and in your case hypocritical insults.
You are the one that used the term nutters in the same comment where you complained about people calling names.
Your credibility is shot. You contradict yourself, post hypocrital lists of standards and still support labour. I guess that puts you on the wrong end of most arguments these days.
BTW, I am very calm. I actually have a good hearty laugh at most of your posts.
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413 mikepko,said
"You gave up reading the Dandy and Beano!! You fool, they are closer to reality than Gordon Brown. I still read them.
I suggest you go back to comics get get a sense of humour and a taste for the real
world."
Well there you are then Mike you've proved my point I had always considered you to be a little above most of the Tory [i'm not a Tory] bloggers on here, and yet you get all your information and your sense of fun from the Beano Dandy and Eagle in that case some of them must get theirs from the Tip Top, looking at al the silly name calling I can quite believe that some on here have a Junior school mentality.
It's strange I cant see the conection between these three comics and the real world.
Grandquantidote, really Mike you must go back to your Financial Times.
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393 nortern thatcherite, well old man or young man delete whichever,you say,
"Who gave you the right to take on such a high and mighty position in relation to other peoples views and comments?"
I understood, forgive me if I'm wrong that we all have equal rights to say what we think.
"You sound incredibly haughty as though you are looking down your nose at everyone else on here for your self-appointed superior position.....making judgements on the content of peoples entries."
Isnt that exactly what your doing.?
"Maybe you should re-connect with the concept of "Blogging".........which is essentially FREE SPEECH!"
It seems to me that its a lesson you could well learn [see above].
Bit of a rant that last paragraph but I agree with some of it ,not all.
"Grandantidrab!" is that the best you can do?
Is that a milestone on which we base your intelligence.
"I rest my case!"
You have no case!
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413 mikepko (political fashion critic)
"......PS I see Gordon still has his jacket on. A real man of the people????"
Casual doesn't work for politicians. It looks like they are trying too hard. Remember the Baseball cap and Cameron look at me throwing my jacket off, look how open my shirt collar is. I am one of you and we conservatives love all of the popular culture of today.
He is the prime minister. not an 18-30 holiday maker in Ibiza 'Having it large".
Maybe we will see Cameron developing a pot belly and exposing his sunburned 'sunblock is for girls' hairy chest lying on the sand like a beached whale. Not really looking forward to that but that would be a real man of the people. Perhaps fake sunburn could be developed and a prosthetic hairy chest and pot belly.
Which comic was Dan Blair vs the meakon(Hague) in?
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399 Grandantidote
Good morning Grandantidote,
Sunday morning and the black clouds are hiding the sun.
I accept that you don't want me to ring the bell for round two, and you are correct in your assumption that my intellect is in no way equal to yours. I can even give you conclusive proof of that. Although I no longer read "Dandy" and "Beano", I recall all the characters, and whilst "Beano" may have been graphically slightly superior to Dandy, I liked the characters in "Dandy" a fraction more.
On a more serious note, the limericks and jokes were a healthy catharsis to an audience seriously concerned about the political future, even future of this country. There is a pressure-cooker of resentment, despair and disapointment amongst the electorate, which in another country could result in violence and even revolution. Here, we make silly jokes - rather like Basil Faulty's silly walk, so don't get too upset and have a nice Sunday.
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re: 403, grandantidote
It cannot be questioned that Labour's mistakes outweigh their successes. They say one thing and do another. There's no contradiction there!
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re: 411
"The labour commenters are dropping off and making fewer comments. and it is already starting to happen. Also look at HYS pages where lab/lib commenters struggling with one membership have long given up and that is definately a waste of the internet."
Yeah, THAT'S the reason, lol. Maybe the vast majority realise they don't deserve to be supported. Seems like a more reasonable conclusion to me.
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411 dhwlkinson
Good morning,
I see you have been writing away into the small hours. What sad lives we lead, a Saturday night was once reserved for more delightful activities!
You name me our "moral guardian", but assuming this was written ironically, you can rest assured I would not dare to be anybody's moral compass, etc.
You ask if I am religious, rather in the tone of asking am I a junkie, a pervert a wino! I am perhaps religious in the manner of Matthew Arnold's 'muscular religion' and my sentiments of seeing certain politicans off this world stage was written tongue in cheek.
I do hope you are not one of those humourless boors to whom any barb directed at the Left is taken as blasphemous. Today, unfortunately in the UK, the only religion accepted, supported and approved of by the government is an alien one to these shores.
I am here to blog on political matters, I'm not going into religious matters, suffice to say, I'm old enough to believe in the Bible, try (often not succesfully) to follow its commandments, and certainly mustn't be a moral guardian to anybody.
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394 Northern thatcherite, You say
Forgot to say..............
"So you're threatening to disconnect from the internet in a hissy fit unless we can all improve our entries on here?
Well do it!"
I should read my post again if I were you , at no point have I said that I would disconnect from the internet what I actually said was,
"I am quite sure that if this stupid rheteric continues we will lose more bloggers off here already some have moved away owing to the ridiculous writing of some bloggers."
Not quite what you say I wrote is it.
"Bet you don't though cos you love the attention you're now getting.".....
I'm far to old to be attention seeking I leave that to the young fellows, you know the ones that enjoy rather silly name calling like
Grandantipasta!
Doesn't that convey a rather disturbing image of the person that was clever enough to think of that name and we are expected to take seriously the political views of this strange person
"Let's see guys ".........
"I predict he won't!!!!!!!!! And then we'll all know why!"
Your predictions are like your political views
not sustainable.
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Miliband needs to be exposed for being a patetic fool at ideas, politics and as a person, so let him become a challenge to GB ruin both their careers immediately, so that they will not cause this country and its people any more trouble than has already been inflicted on us by such a disgusting and scheming government.
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414 purpledogzzz,
I am glad my posts amuse you. I can return the compliment, yours amuse me but in a very different rather disturbing way.
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re: 422
grandantidote you're like a child that has been proved wrong and just won't accept it... OBVIOUSLY it's down to media distortion and Tory propaganda that nobody supports Labour, and nothing to do with their disastrous policies [10p tax abolition for example], lies and spin. Or that we may have a third PM in three years foisted upon us. This does not happen to a party in control! You'll never remove your red-tinted specs, what's the use?
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419 ppl you are obviously missing the point read the two statments again. There is a obvious contradiction
420 you say
"Seems like a more reasonable conclusion to me."
why doesn't that surprise me.
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423 Michaelhessy, You say
"Miliband needs to be exposed for being a patetic fool at ideas, politics and as a person, so let him become a challenge to GB ruin both their careers immediately, "
So why dont you give it a try Mike, you sound like just the man for the job.
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grandantidote even Blair accepts that Brown is useless, look at that leaked note: 'vacuous', 'guilty of hubris' etc. But no, you and your red-flag-waving chums know best as always!
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425 ppl What on earth are you talking about in the two posts to NT I make no mention of politics except for one last short sentence,
The two posts had nothing remotely to do with politics it was defending my right to free speech something it seems that only you Tory lovers are allowed to have, dont worry about my specs I think its you that needs to visit that well known purveyor of spectacles,
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re: 429
I was referring to the delusion that lies behind your sermonising, but any attempt to explain to you why you are wrong is met with blah blah blah grow up. And you avoid any attempt to engage in a proper discussion like you claim we should all be doing. I can't see why you would do this other than that you have no justification for Labour's actions
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421 pheonixarisen.
Nothing wrong with being religeous. Sorry I gave you that impression.
Everything wrong with complaining about bad taste, then wishing death and eternal damnation on people(you@391). I had always assumed in christianity and other religeons that their God dished out those kind of judgements. We must respect all religeons and races I agree, and make the world a better place.
But not the hypocrisy of some of their followers.
My computer was on quite late I checked an earlier message. Where I was rather cheeky and Immoral. It had quit rightly been sent to moderation. So backed on the browser , removed the offending comment and sent it again.
Sorry I am not humourless. I just don't find you Conservatives funny, not your intentional humour anyway.
For proper humour, the repeats of Armstrong and Miller friday at 9:30 are worth a watch. look out for the Newsreader reading out Emails who is so depressed at having to do so that has lost the will to live. That is quite funny and of course the sat nav/right wing rant device in the car of the man who likes to sneer at the outside world from behind the wheel. and "what do a no" the geordie window cleaner with solutions to world problems that 'knows his place'. Im sure for all you party animals that it will be available on iPlayer.
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418 phenixarison,
Good morning to you sir.
A much more measured post from you this morning which is only what I was asking for in post 389, which seemed to incur the wrath of some Tory bloggers.
You missed the point regarding intellect it was I that suggested that your interllect eclipsed mine, or was that the infamous irony that we hear so much of on these blogs.
I think you may concede that my post 389 has sown the seeds of a little more serious debate, its only in its infancy yet but I live in hope.
You say
"Here, we make silly jokes - rather like Basil Faulty's silly walk, so don't get too upset"
You wouldn't want to turn on your computer and find that on your sceen everyday as funny as it is, now would you?
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431 dhwilkinson
Thanks for suggesting comedies which would appeal to me. I don't know if you are being sarcastic or genuinely helpful, but I regret to say I've neither seen nor heard of them. I am stuck in a time warp of "Are You Being Served?" and "Faulty Towers", plus "Rising Damp". I hardly watch TV, save for news or current affairs matters, preferring to read, both fiction, non fiction and comedy.
You write that you don't find YOU conservatives funny. Sorry to disallusion you, I am not a tory, nor have I ever been. Always seem to go for the independents, as the born loser I obviously am!
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430 ppl, So you were refering to the delusion that lies behind my sermonising,
Perhaps you can explain why I and other labour supporters are always dilusional and sermonising when they put forward their views and yet when Tory supporters express their views they are written on tablets of stone.I am afraid I am not familiar with what I can only imagine is modern
vernicular ie blah, blah, blah, perhaps you would like to explain, you see you dont seem to understand the basic context of debate, debate is about people expressing there views in a orderly manner. not trying to impose your will on others and when unable too, resort to bullying and name calling in the manner of David Cameron, who incidentally is keeping his head very low if he was confident that he knew the answers to our current problems he would be out there strutting his stuff. regarding your last sentence you surmise to much.
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432
Grandantidote
Thank you for your latest post. I trust I will not incur fresh outrage by stating that with the news, worldwide in general, being so depressing I would find it therapeutic to see Basil Faulty and Emanuel (from Barcelona) doing their thing on the screen.
Also, as it's Sunday, I shall be flippant, #394 NT called you Grandantipasta. It's hardly mocking your name, as like most of us you are using a nom de plume. I think Grandantipasta is quite nice, and a harmless friendly nickname. I won't be posting anymore today since I have been hogging the computer all morning, and my spouse of over fifty years hard labour, is complaining bitterly. When I return it will be to write serious, and no doubt annoying postings.
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And how's the bullies playground this morning?
the usual name calling, hectoring and confusion between fact and opinion no doubt.
Why not try a day of positive views?
PTTP, Purpledog, maxscetic etc can tell us all about the new policies etc they look forward too from Camp David and GA etc can respond?
Can you think of anything baring in mind "small government/less quangos is on hold for at least 2 years after the election due to pledge to stick to Labour spending plans.
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If anyone heard Sir Alan Sugar today on the BBC. I think he is right about getting rid of people who are plotting against him and reshuffle his cabinet. It is not his fault because of the Credit crunch, it is not his fault problems are caused. However, he is the man who has raised taxes and that's why he is so unpopular.
So Gordon, get rid of everyone who is stabbing you in the back and reshuffle the whole party.
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Yes, I read and commented on that. People might like to look at Alan Sugar's handling of the interview as a good model for online discussion. He sticks to the subject, is affable, and rides over the interviewers loaded questions. It shows how people can get what they want to say out into the open without being dragged into a needless fight.
About 90% of my posts that have been referred to moderators have been reinstated, and about 90% of posts I notified moderators about have been deleted. Those are just the facts. By sticking to the subject and referring the worst of the abuse to moderation things can improve for everyone.
Name calling and defamation get nailed every time. If some of the more troublesome people in here want to keep it up they'll just keep getting nuked. Instead of trying to "get to me", perhaps, they could level up by making a positive case and keeping things polite. Really, it's better for you when consider it.
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438 Charles E Hardwidge
Wasn't planning to use the computer anymore today, but saw this:
"and about 90% of posts I notified moderators about have been deleted. "
For a man who bores us all with his zen half-baked philosphy, you are in the language of the people A COPPER'S NARK.
Hardwidge, you are a cad and should be horse-whipped!
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GA
I also read the Victor and the Valiant when they were published. All the comics were full of men of action, unlike our present cabinet who are men of words and inaction.
I firmly believe that you have to keep a childish sense of humour in this world. Two of my favourite people were Brian Johnston and Humphrey Lyttleton, both children at heart.
As I say to my 8 and 9 years old nephews, and they repeat back to me "If I didn't laugh I'd cry." Gordon Brown (him with the jackets) certainly does have this effect on me - I can only laugh at him since the alternative is so depressing.
Bye, bye chums!!!
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439 (me)
Reread my comment, and I apologise for claiming to speak for all. There are perhaps some who find CEH interesting, but in any case it is wrong of me to speak for everybody. At least I know now why so many of this gentleman's postings appear, sometimes a whole (select a suitable collective/group word) of them. He nukes the opposition. By his own admission 90% of those he complains about are removed, whereas 90% of those he writes are restored after consideration by the moderators. Perhaps he is a moderator!!!
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re: 440, mikepko
I quite agree. The spirit of satire must live on in these troubled times! Only 'The Man' would seek to oppress such a thing!
re: 441, Phoenix
I think your post 339 represents the vast majority on this board! That'd be the 90 percent the rambler complains about!
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435Pheonixarison well you might think that grandantipasta and grandantidrab are just fun
"I think Grandantipasta is quite nice, and a harmless friendly nickname."
You really think they were meant to friendly nice pleasant names to be called, if my grandchildren called me those names I would find it amusing.
Its not particularly the names used it is a blatant gesture of disrespect, intended to annoy me which it fails to do and I point it out purely to indicate just how childish and devoid of anything sensible to say they are.
The same thing applies when these unimaginative people call members of the government absurd names on here they have nothing to say so they resort to name calling in the same way that Cameron does.
The name calling means not one iota to me I've been called much worse on these blogs and certainly worse in the real world but for goodness sake dont give them any solace.
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435Pheonixarison well you might think that grandantipasta and grandantidrab are just fun
"I think Grandantipasta is quite nice, and a harmless friendly nickname."
You really think they were meant to friendly nice pleasant names to be called, if my grandchildren called me those names I would find it amusing.
Its not particularly the names used it is a blatant gesture of disrespect, intended to annoy me which it fails to do and I point it out purely to indicate just how childish and devoid of anything sensible to say they are.
The same thing applies when these unimaginative people call members of the government absurd names on here they have nothing to say so they resort to name calling in the same way that Cameron does.
The name calling means not one jot to me I've been called much worse on these blogs and certainly worse in the real world but for goodness sake dont give them any solace.
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testing
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442 ppl Fun is great. humour is great, satire is great, but cynical spiteful satire is any thing but great,.
It reminds me of the school bully always ready to put down the little lads with far more know how than him but the bullies are always surrounded by a bunch of equally unpleasant individuals who jump to their aid whenever their under threat, a little like these blogs on times.
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444 GA
Sorry you were upset, despite your denials at the silly nicknames. I am sure those who used them just meant to tease, and being good guys at heart, will cease. We all have enough problems and burdens in the real world, we don't need them here too!
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440 mikekpo
My thoughts exactly.
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grand: "I am glad my posts amuse you. I can return the compliment, yours amuse me but in a very different rather disturbing way."
How about this for disturbing:
Quote from an interesting Article online:
"In a recent interview with Think Progress, however, Seymore Hersh, the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and few of the genuine investigative journalists worthy of the name, exposed that the meeting witnessed Cheney mulling over a proposal to dress up Navy SEALs as Iranians and shoot them in order to trigger a war with Iran.
The one (plan) that interested me the most was why don?t we build - we in our shipyard - build four or five boats that look like Iranian PT boats. Put Navy SEALs on them with a lot of arms. And next time one of our boats goes to the Strait of Hormuz, start a shoot-up,? he revealed in his recent interview.
Cheney has been brainstorming ideas to fraudulently create what is known as a "false flag" attack to start a war against Iran. THAT is the mentality of the Bush and Blair/Brown Governments.
He is doing what there is a long tradition of in America. Lying to start wars.
Look up Operation Northwoods. This is another example (from the 1960's this time) of American leaders plotting to create a false, faked attack to motivate the American people to support war and carnage and the sacrifice of their sons and daughters.
THAT is the mentality. No theory necessary for these are examples of factual conspiracies.
Conspiracy: [kuhn-spir-uh-see]
?noun, plural -cies.
1. the act of conspiring.
2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.
Cheney plotting with others in secret to lie the nation into a war is a classic conspiracy by the way.
If and when a war starts with Iran. Do NOT believe whatever BS reason the mainstream media tell you is the reason, for it has already been demonstrated that Cheney (the most powerful VP in history, arguably he is more powerful than bush, as he has removed himself from ALL oversight as he claims that he is not answerable to the executive, legislative nor judicial branches of the Government.) manufacturing a falsehood to start a war. A war that Israel has stated will be nuclear.
So, are you disturbed yet? We have the likes of Cheney trying to invent a fraudulent reason to start a war, we have Israel claiming (based on the same intelligence that was lies about WMD) that Iran is "about to make a breakthrough in their (non existent) nuclear weapons program. We have the current Isreali Prime Minister stepping down in September, to be replaced by a hard liner. we have the Israelis threatening nuclear attacks against Iran with nuclear armed bunker busters, We have Russia signing extensive energy agreements with Iran, building their peaceful nuclear power production facilities and pledging to defend Iran against all enemies.
We have John Bolton and other former and current senior members of the American Administration pushing very hard for an attack to be launched between the election in November and the inaugoration in January.
We have Gordon Brown travelling to Israel to swear alliegience to Israel and her Zionist regime. (an act of a traitor)
All this is simmering away and people here are asking if Miliband can project labour policies properly???
When the world is LITERALLY on the cusp af global nuclear war, our foreign secretary is writing a manifesto that is in reality an ego driven nonesense as a thinly veiled launch of his own leadership challenge.
How can ANYONE take labour seriously at ALL?
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446 GA
See 436 for similar thought.
Sir Alan Sugar.
A remarkable lack of comment and debate about the interview he gave.
Now why would that be?
Is it because he's pretty well respected and liked by most and certainly wouldn't tolerate a fool gladly BUT speaks so positively about the PM.
Come on Tory Boys should there be a new "name" for Sir Alan by now on the board because his words must really stick in your throats.
What was it something like "a clever man, a good man and an excellent Cahancellor"
Come on PTTP what is it just "spin and lies"?
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t
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eaton, you are STILL not sure what Conservative policies will be? Do you not watch political coverage?
Three points to note here:
1. The tories will only publish the results of the policy reviews when an election has been called. Labour have "form" in stealing, misunderstanding and then implementing a flawed version of known conservative policies. Then they have the gall to blame the tories when it doesn't work. It would be a bit like you being jealous of my HD digital cinema-projector so you steal it (minus the bulb) and then when you switch it on and it doesn't work you complain that HD Digital Projectors are rubbish.
2. There is already a long list of things that the tories have pledged to do, like scrap ID cards, Scrap 42 days and basically roll back the state and stop this becoming a political police state that constantly interfere's with the minutie of everyone's lives. This will save billions to invest in providing services to tax payers instead of surveillance of tax payers. We could have twice-weekly bin collections if the money spent on spying (abusing terrorist legislation to do so) on emptying the bins instead.
3. As you have been told many of these things before, you obviously cannot grasp the concept that spending MORE is NOT necessarily spending Better.
Labour overspend massively and waste billions of pounds. A promise to match labour's spending COULD mean that we finally get value for money and massively improved services for the same money. We could get a much smaller surveillance state and a much better service state!
It is really simple actually, but yet, still too difficult for labour supporters to grasp.
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re: 450, Eatonrifle
Sugar says that Brown has his hand on the pulse, but I see no evidence to suggest this because if Brown was, then he would know that he needs new policies: ones with mass appeal. But all Labour can offer are minor policies like labelling fur and flawed policies like the windfall tax intended for the energy companies, flawed because the companies will pass on the cost to the consumer making the problem it was intended to solve worse. Where is the vision that Brown promised to set out?
Alan Sugar says that the opinion polls only ask one question and they're not specific. Well that's simply not true, look at the YouGov poll (the link is on post 355). It's very specific and gives concrete reasons why people don't like him.
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re: 450, Eatonrifle
I also disagree that Brown was a good chancellor for reasons discussed on here many times before: namely that he inherited a strong economy from the Tories and as a result of his own bad decisions, severely damaged it. Like selling the gold too cheaply for instance. I know he's not responsible for global economic conditions and nobody's saying he is, but he's responsible for not setting aside money in prosperous times to ease the current difficulties we now face. These are not the actions of a prudent chancellor.
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re: 446, grandantidote
If you don't like it tough luck I'm afraid, it's called freedom of speech, and somehow I doubt your attitude would be the same if I was making fun of a different party.
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Post 389.
GRAND:important and large in degree
ANTIDOTE:a way of preventing or acting against something bad
Hey, it seems in the last 24 hours you've got your knickers in a twist about my posting 393. I stand by every word...... as it was a reaction to your words some of which I have quoted below which you said in response to some of the other bloggers on here........
"I have never read so much drivel". (of course your comments never are!)
"and yet your posts are like the stuff children write on toilet walls and the poems almost as bad." (don't you find them creative?)
"If you want to critisise any member of the government, thats fine but do try to use a modicum of diplomacy" ( why should we be diplomatic when discussing the Government...or the Opposition for that matter.......that's what they HAVE to do in Zimbabwe!)
"As I have said before once is funny more than once is boring and unfunny." ( So we can be funny once...but no more?)
I just found your posting annoying............my response to you wasn't political at all..........I am not bothered whether you were a Tory, Socialist or Lib.................you we simply talking down to people and literally trying to tell people how to conduct themselves...ON YOUR TERMS!..........otherwise you were going to quit the site it seemed. It was your superior position that I objected to!
If you read my entry on 394 you will find out what the definition of blogging is and therefore no one should be bound by GRANDANTIDOTE's rules and regulations! That was my point! FREE SPEECH!
Yes I endulged in a bit of name changing ( not calling...but I can do that quite well when I need to!) just as a matter of fun poking..........simple as that..........I am not a nasty person.
But I would ask you not to judge people on this blog for the way they express themselves.....whether this is serious or in jest....or in a creative way.
I would appeal to you to just accept the colour of the canvass that we all paint by blogging on here and when you want to challenge a fact or opinion...........then go for it in your own individual style............but stop telling us how to conduct ourselves from what appears to be a self appointed superior position.
Now let's get back to the Politics......coz that's what were all here for!!!!!!!!
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431 dhwilkinson
Looked up Armstrong and Miller on google and it seems fun. Thanks!
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Alan Sugar is a clever man. So says almost everybody, he is after all , a self-made millionaire, or billionaire, or whatever. I recall him making a few boo-boos in his choice of apprentices, a lack of judgement which we are all prey to. Had a chance today to read up a few articles, and it seems Alan Sugar would fire those around Brown, those who are plotting against the prime minister. In theory it sounds sound, after all what do I know? I'm just a poor old pensioner who thinks a plate of whipped cream walnuts is a decadent delight. But, and this is my nagging doubt, if he removes the plotters won't the whole house of cards collapse?
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If he removes all the plotters he won't have a cabinet left!
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456 northern thatcherite I am afraid I only have time to reply very briefly as I have to go out, no offence meant,
first sentence re grand antidote .not important.
second para no knickers in twist dont wear any I answered you this morning as I didn't have time last night it was out of courtesy. your quite at liberty to react to my words as long as you dont twist them.
"I have never read so much drivel". (of course your comments never are!)
[Iam pretty sure that sometimes they are but I do try to keep them interesting unlike much of the drivel on here.and I dont post endless debatable statistics.]
[Never be afraid of diplomacy or courteousness, as Winston said jaw, jaw,jaw, not war, war, war,]
As I have said before once is funny more than once is boring and unfunny." ( So we can be funny once...but no more?)
[ You can try to be funny as often as you like but you should know if you've heard it once it isn't funny anymore.]
I just found your posting annoying...........
.[I wouldn't have expected any different]
my response to you wasn't political at all..........[neither was mine to you.]
I am not bothered whether you were a Tory, Socialist or Lib.................you we simply talking down to people and literally trying to tell people how to conduct themselves...ON YOUR TERMS!..........
[not at all I was hoping that one or two might realise that the jokes were taking over the blog]
otherwise you were going to quit the site it seemed. It was your superior position that I objected to![ never at any time did I say that]
If you read my entry on 394 you will find out what the definition of blogging is and therefore no one should be bound by GRANDANTIDOTE's rules and regulations! That was my point! FREE SPEECH
[ so what your saying is that we go by your definition of blogging, no one is more in favour of free speech than I. but often under the mantle of free speech people say unnecessary spiteful and often untrue things. I have no rules I only request decorum and moderation its up to the individual whether they agree with that concept or not.]
Yes I endulged in a bit of name changing ( not calling...but I can do that quite well when I need to!)
[We are quite aware of that,]
just as a matter of fun poking..........simple as that..........I am not a nasty person.
[second line of this para belies that]
but stop telling us how to conduct ourselves from what appears to be a self appointed superior position.
[we all write from a self appointed superior position thats the nature of debate if we didn't think we were right then we wouldn't write it although I sometimes wonder if thats always the case]
Now let's get back to the Politics......coz that's what were all here for!!!!!!!!
[you might be right but I fear that a few on here are using these blogs just to massage their own ego.]
Thats all for now night night.
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I fear that Milliband has, rather than "tested the waters" actually chucked a huge stick of dynamite into the lake blowing everything up within a ten mile radius. Speaking as a one time Labour voter who would like to return - the Lib dems are a willing and accommodating, yet unsatisfying mistress - it is crystal clear that there needs to be a change at the top and urgently, before Cameron skips merrily into number 10. Sadly, Milliband has managed to make himself look like just the kind of scheming, backstabbing reptile that the public already thinks New Labour MPs are. Not his intention of course - he intended to put out a few feelers to see if he would be backed. That dynamite has, unfortunately, blown right up in his face. I predict that Brown will soldier on, much as John Major did in the mid 90's before being annihilated at the 2010 election.
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re: 461
"Sadly, Milliband has managed to make himself look like just the kind of scheming, backstabbing reptile that the public already thinks New Labour MPs are."
Not thinks Mr. H. Mouse, knows!
Check this out.
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I've just been rereading a bit of 1984 - so relevant in the current climate, methinks. It's the chapter about Winston Smith in the Ministry of Truth working away at falsifying the record of history.
I also checked out John Denham's article in the Sunday Times:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4449780.ece
I can't help but feel there's a little bit of the Orwellian here, when he says: "The history of the past 11 years is pretty clear. On virtually every big argument that divided Britain in 1997 Labour has been proved right and the Tories wrong. We won so convincingly that David Cameron?s ambition is to sound like us."
I really am amazed that someone could try to pull off a trick like this, to suggest that the Tories are trying to copy Labour. Has a simple historical fact not occurred to John Denham, that the whole "New Labour project" is actually testimony to the success of the Conservative Party?! That's the whole point of it. Old Labour were unelectable, and therefore, because of Conservative success, they had to reform. This is what I find so incredible about all the hubris of New Labour at the moment. They have forgotten their own (very recent) history.
Oh no, perhaps I've committed a thoughtcrime. Better hope the thought police don't come knocking on my door to drag me off to the Ministry of Love...
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#461 thehauntedmouse
You may well be right about Miliband's nonsense. However, I'd like to understand why you would like to return to voting Labour?
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re: 464 oldnat
A fair question.
I am, at heart, a social liberal, which is most certainly not the same as being a socialist. I admire much from the right wing - self sufficiency, entrepreneurialism, ambition and so on, but I believe that socially speaking, conservative policies simply cost too much in the end. Unemployment, class division and neglect invariably follow Consrevative governments.
If anything, I fit the profile of New Labour quite well. I'm 30, have a professional job in the public sector, believe in social democracy without dismissing the benefits that the private sector can sometimes bring and have no illusions about "ideology" or "class struggle."
I just feel that Labour lost its way during the Blair years. What started out as a genuinely exciting, revolutionary set of policies (sorely needed after the depressing Major years) got distorted and corrupted as characters like Mandelson, Byers and Milburn tightened their grips. Business boomed at the expense of the poorest. Immigration became a media football. Tuition fees. Iraq - a huge, eye wateringly costly mistake. With the Conservatives lurching from inept leader to inept leader, there was scope for Labour to really make changes - to be bold and tax the richest a little more for example. But it was not to be. Iraq caused me to go to the Lib Dems.
I still believe that at its core, Labour is a social democratic party committed to fairness and equality of opportunity. Sadly, it has become a nest of careerist puppets, holier than thou preachers and sad old socialist dinosaurs, led by a man with no idea how to spell out a clear vision for this country.
Milliband at least appears to have some kind of plan, although he's vague on details. I still say, however, that he's blown his chance now.
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re: 463
It's more than a bit Orwellian. Labour invented thoughtcrime when they jumped on the political correctness bandwagon. And yep I would expect a knock at the door. (I think we'll be joining you in the Tower as well!)
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re: 465
What you say makes sense, though I'm not sure about this:
"I believe that socially speaking, conservative policies simply cost too much in the end. Unemployment, class division and neglect invariably follow Consrevative governments."
Labour have done a pretty good of creating class division, the gap between rich and poor has never been wider. But if you (and others who think the same as you) vote for Labour anyway then they will take that (ie spin that) as an endorsement of their previous record and will never change, which is why they have to be punished. And voting for a minority party at the next General Election is effectively a vote for Labour. I personally think the best strategy is to vote Tory this time around to annihilate Labour and get the corruption out of office, then switch to voting for the independents after that when Labour have imploded/are not far from imploding.
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#465
Thanks for the response. That was interesting. Many of us on this blog are cynical old men, who have seen parties captured by the Mandelson's of this world over many years.
It's nice to see thoughtful analysis from the generation that have to pay for our pensions!
If I were English, I'd take pttp's advice and vote to destroy Labour this time round, then look to rebuild social democracy thereafter.
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#67 Ed Iglehart
Who knows, maybe even one of the remnants of the inevitably fragmented SNP.
Ed please can you expand on this statement I am a bit light on Scottish political history, especially SNP history.
What makes you think they will fragment?
Slainte Mhor
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So who will be in power in a few weeks time. Three choices, at the moment
1 Gordon Brown
2 The Milipede
3 Blair's Gang of Three, Four, Five ....
What a total shambles for the Country.
And not one good idea between tyhe lot of them.
I would cerainly like to know what Wilko, GA and CEH think!!!!
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I've pretty much given my view on leadership, communication, and the long-term. I've only been posting during some down time and that's over. I have other things to get on with.
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Gee whizz another brainless wonder.... just like the rest of the cabinet a wannabe, all you get is, "Please lemme ava go I'll do a great job", come on then David lets hear your policies... we won't even hear a pip squeak.
If there was any brains to be had at all there would be no half-baked ideas, no U turns or half baked speeches.
What these lot in the cabinet can't understand is a Prime Minister is only as good as his cabinet... and the problem is he's stuck with the mud and can't do anything about it thats why Labour is in decline and it's started going this way not under Brown but under Tony Blair, Gorden Brown is just the inheritor.
They are jaded, stale and past their sell by date thats why we are getting U turns and half baked policies and ideas and it needs to be stopped by an election, either they will win or they will loose this is the only way out, as all we will get is in party bickering and disgruntlement.
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CEH: 438.
Charles, may I have permission to post a comment? I know you're the great voice of reason and calm and all that but I would appreciate it if you'd allow me to post a comment. Oh, you'd rather I'd not. Oh, ever so sorry to bother you, I shan't continue then. Forgive me for intruding on 'your' blog Charles. Feel free to complain about this comment if you wish. It's OK, I know I speak for everyone else on here that doesn't share your views when I say: warm thanks for taking on the role of supreme blog censor. We all appreciate it, we really do. We're so happy that your antics are so free from bias, and are undertaken purely to help u