Context is everything
What on earth did he mean by that? That is the only question that matters about today's extraordinary intervention by David Miliband in the debate about how the Labour party recovers.
Now no doubt, he will say that we should understand him to mean precisely what he wrote and not a word more. Why then do I and most political observers refuse to take his article at face value? Quite simply because in politics context is all.
Consider the choices that faced the foreign secretary at a time when there is furious speculation about a challenge to Gordon Brown.
Firstly he could have called for that speculation to stop and for people to fall in behind the leader. He did no such thing. Indeed Gordon Brown is not even mentioned in his article.
Secondly he could have said nothing at all and simply gone on holiday. But oh no, he chose a third option. To set out the way forward for the party without doing anything to prop up his leader's position.
So what on earth did he mean by this? Not, I'm sure, an open challenge to Gordon Brown. The foreign secretary has no intention of trying to bring him down. On the other hand he does want to make it clear that in this leadership contest - if there is ever one - he will not hesitate, he is ready for the fight. And he will represent the candidate promising change.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~39~RS~)
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I doubt Miliband will get to be leader.
He dithered the last time about running for the leadership, in the end bottling it (just like GB did over the election).
And further, his name and face are recognisably part of this government of failure and therefore the public won't accept him as change in direction (after all they were told that's what they'd get with Brown and look how that turned out!)
If Labour are to get out of their self inflicted mess (and I for one hope they don't), they'll need an unknown as leader. Someone who is not tainted with NuLAb past.
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Read what he actually says in the Guardian and he is pursuing the same 'we're not to blame' game as his current boss.
If he thinks the electorate will warm to that message from him but not from Gordon Brown then he's as delusional as his boss.
Excess credit and over leveraged banks is not a problem that 'came form America' It's home grown and encouraged by the laxity of the Tripartite structure put in place by NewLabour.
He has the charisma of a wet handshake and is about as relevant to the ordinary men and women of this country as a cold winter in Siberia. that's where we'll all be headed with any more Newlabour Initiatives.
There is no message to communicate; just directives from comrades Brown, Miliband, Purnell and their like.
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Nick,
If this does turn into a leadership challenge, I'm looking forward to another outing of your pun "Milibandwaggon". Superb!
John Hickson, [Personal details removed by Moderator]
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Clearly the Labour-Ferret-Fight has begun............
Miliband says that Labour should start the fight back by winning the debate over its record in government - oh dear...... the public know the record.
Goodbye Labour.....
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What ever have we done to bring such wretched politicans upon us? It is well known that whom the gods wish to destroy they first drive mad. The question here is whom is being driven mad? Gordon Brown or the citizens of the UK? Miliband may be sly, but he is without intellectual depth, and will suit Harriet Harmman well as a colleague, since he is not vigorously male, more an over-age adolescent, with the bum-fluff over his upper lip. He will present no threat to her feminist agenda.
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As my comments the other day and today suggest, you're misreading this one Nick. Jack Straw is suggesting the party needs to calm down, Jacqui Smith is suggesting it engages with the electorate and, gosh wow, David Miliband is shifting the focus onto building up the success of ordinary people. This approach by Miliband isn't a leadership challenge. That's just old politics talking.
This point position Miliband is taking will 'detoxify' the leadership and shift the focus more onto achieving and reaching out to the electorate. It's what I'd hoped Labour would do and they're doing it. There's times when I wonder if anyone bothers reading these comments and it looked like Miliband got here before you did. Honestly, dude. Keep up.
By removing himself from the front line the Master Strategist casts a less psychologically less intimidating image for people, and steps outside of the reach of Tory personality bashing. That enables Labour to take ten steps forward and get close to the electorate. The rest depends on Labour MP's getting off their duff and proving their worth.
It's so perfect I'm gonna have a cry.
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What change exactly. Surely if he were he to become leader he would have to call an immediate General election, an election he may actually win, because surely the conservatives would not want to take power now.
So, labour win with a hugely reduced majority, they may even be a minority government. Miliband would then soon have to come to the country again, probably within the year.
The Tories would be in turmoil because they have invested so much in Cameron and he failed. So, there is just the chance that we would have to have coalition governments, labour with the SNP, labour with liberal democrats, Conservatives with liberal democrats, who knows? The possibilities are endless. What fun the political commentators will have. We may even end up with a government of national unity!
In the meantime the deaths continue in our foreign wars. Bring the troops home, they will be needed to keep everything under control.
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Nick
You correctly refuse to accept it at face value.
Your assessment is on the ball.
He wants to be leader.
He has set out his manifesto.
Now he can go away for his hols safe in the knowledge that his supporters can drum up 45 signatures in time for conference.
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Nick,
We all know what David sillybland is up to. He's feeling a little edgy right now. He's seen into the future, and while on the one hand it's looking pretty bleak for the party, on the other, it's looking pretty promising for him. But God help us if he ends up in charge. Blair no 2? Another round of spin, lies and minipulation with another slick media managed image. Anyhow, I don't know why I'm so aggravated by it all, soon enough there'll be the usual falling-out between them all. They'll all be slagging each other off in public and we can all sit back and watch the result.
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Dear Nick
Although not many comments yet I feel there is going to be alot from two bloggers, in particular - they know who they are - who love the sight of their words. For example in "Yawning Gap" they contributed approx 50 comments out 187!
May I suggest a limit to the comments that can be made by bloggers on a topic - as per HYS - and a time gap between contributions as per 606 Sports?
Thanks.
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Context is indeed all.
Its good to see a Cabinet member who is willing to offer some analysis and ideas.
After Crewe and Nantwhich, the London Mayor, 5th place in Hendon and now the disaster in Glasgow East what will it take for Labour to get rid of loser Brown.
I for one dont want to see the Tories back.
In Milliband we have a man with ideas who is not oversold like Brown was.
But who will be prepared to wield the knife?
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'Let the work of change begin'.
'Change you can believe in'.
And now 'promising change'.
In my opinion, only the SNP (Scotland) and Plaid (Wales) are effecting real change in this land.
England is politically dormant and awaits its fate.
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He's basically Brown half the experience and double the smugness. They're doomed.
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Bring it on!
Miliband's might not be everyone's dream PM, but
a.) he has to be better than Brown (ok, anyone could be)
b.) he has demonstrated serious intellect in recent interviews as well as the ability to communicate.
Also, I'm glad Harman has realised she didn't have a cat in hell's chance (I mean after her performance in PMQs a few weeks ago). I'm still shuddering at the prospect though.
The only chance of Brown turning things around - marginally - is a truly shocking reshuffle. Get rid of Darling, Smith, Browne and bring back Beckett, Clarke, Milburn and Reid (if they will accept!).
But I don't think Brown has the courage. He'll rather limp on for another two years believing there's been an international conspiracy against his premiership and that none of it is his own doing.
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Carrying on the motor racing analogy from the last article:
Labour are squabling over tyre choices....
At the first sign of rain they got rid of the 'slicks' (Blair) and put on 'intermediates' (Brown), but because it is pouring with rain he can't stay on the track, although he is refusing to come in and put on 'wets' (Milliband).
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Nick,
I know you don't actually like comments to Blogs but suggest you look at the comments left on Mr Millibands' piece in the Grauniad.
I think the problem is he's written a piece for Westminster Village and has started ignoring what the public actually think. He may be considering his political manoeuvres but at some stage, he WILL come face to face with the public's view
I think you had a similar experience in your reporting of David Davis.
Westminster would be wise to remember that the area outside is watching and judging ... and the mood is turning pretty ugly.
CiF is a pretty good litmus test - Labour, tories, Lib dems - all can't stand him it seems.
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I am beginging to tire of this over-employment of the word `change' from the direction of New Labour.
We have had eleven years of their change and are even worse off now than when it started. I can get that sort of change just by sitting on my backside, doing nothing!
It is said they have spent £1.29 trillion pounds on change and Darling is now telling us there is no change left.
I could accept this sort of essay from an undergraduate seeking office in the Students Union, but not from the Foreign Secretary.
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Charles:
It's so ridiculous I'm gonna have a drink.
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6 Charles_E_Hardwidge
It is time to take your head out of the sand.
Milliband has 'held up the political knife' and he is hoping that someone is going to plunge it in Gordons back.
It took Gordon a long time to stab Tony. The knives for Brown will find their target much faster.
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No 14 ajmy06:
Bring back Reid: Oh my God! Isn't it bad enough that we're suffering the credit crunch?
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Someone said that there should be an uknown to lead the party, because most if not all of the Cabinet are tarred with the NuLabour disasterously tainted brush.
Well, not completely an unknown, but step forward Kate Hoey! A good Northern Irish girl (like myself), not afraid to speak her mind and rock the NuLab boat and her voting record on the issues that matter is good.
Seriously, from what I can see all David Cameron has to be is Not-Gordon, which he does very well!!
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This reminds me of that remark allegedly made by the late King Hussein of Jordan about a previous Labour Foreign Secretary "Is he any good as a Doctor?"
This sent me to investigate the background of Mr Miliband. I am not surprised to discover that he hasn't done anything but politics since leaving leaving school so he wouldn't bring a wealth of relevant experience to being PM.
At least he's got Peter Hyman as his speechwriter so he will sound just like Blair.
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Interesting language he uses in a well crafted (if shallow) article.
"The Tories overclaim for what they are against because they don't know what they are for."
"Every member of the Labour party carries with them a simple guiding mission on the membership card: to put power, wealth and opportunity in the hands of the many, not the few. When debating public service reform, tax policies or constitutional changes, we apply those values to the latest challenges"
Seems simple enough, and yet ....
His "guiding mission" is mom and apple-pie. Many in all parties would subscribe to those ideals. There are individuals in the Tory and Labour parties (not to mention the Lib-Dem donor) whose practices are clearly designed to put power and wealth in their own personal hands.
It seems to me, as a friendly observer, that there is no longer a Left/Right battle in England. The difference is between the means of achieving common aims.
The Tories had a history of non-intervention and decentralism. The Liberals had a history of intervention and decentralism. Neither, it seems to me, are confronting the critical issue of centralisation of power in the hands of "the few" who, of course know best.
New Labour admire Thatcher because she knew best, and centralised power - (a very untraditional Tory stance), while being re-distributive of the resources of the state .
Milliband is making a play for the leadership of a party whose traditions are entirely centralist.
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re: 15
They're still squabbling over what year in which to hold the race!
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@10
Maybe you should limit your contribution to zero if the only thing you can do is complain about people that actually have something to say just because you dont like what they are saying.
Despite Labours best efforts we do still have freedom of speech in this country.
To get back to the motor racing analogy from earlier blogs, you now sound like a commentator complaining that the leader of the race is driving too fast and making it difficult for the others to keep up. I'll give you a clue, the right foot makes you go faster
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Was Miliband one of the many Labour MPs who queued up to go on record last year saying that no-one should oppose Brown in a leadership contest because Brown was "by far the best the party had to offer"?
If, by his own admission, Miliband would be a worse PM than Brown, what can the country expect if he does take over...?
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Hi Nick
For my sins I work as a salesman. In a competitive market I never say disparaging things about my competitors because in comes across as petty and small minded.
To sell something I find out the aspirations of the customer and then show how I can help them get there.
What I find most troubling about modern politics is that there is no idea of where they want to take us. Do they believe in big or small government? Is rugged individualism the answer or the greatest mistake?
This far from an election I understand parties are not about to give much detail of how things will be achieved but I would like to know what the want to achieve.
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Et tu, Mili?
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There is of course one way Brown could forestall a leadership challenge. He could go to the country.
There would be many who would see this as a suicide pact in which the PLP would be characterised as so many lemmings running blindly towards the cliff edge. There would certainly be others, however, who would see it as an act of courage bring the infighting to an end and asking those who really matter - the people.
The fact is that this is the one option Brown has which he can exercise all to himself. Surely even Labour is not stupid enough to have a leadership contest in the middle of a general election.
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You're spot-on with this one Nick. Miliband is clearly laying the groundwork for when someone of importance dares to wield the knife.
Also interesting to see Denis MacShane - the perennial also-ran - is angling for a cabinet role with his slurping appraisal of Miliband in the Guardian...
If Labour were sensible, they'd ditch Brown now and leave the Tories with a disastrous economy, to come back for 2020. Instead they'll cling to power, take the worst of the flack and give Cameron another 18 years.
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Charles:
'90% of the comments in here are dreg' Yes Charles and they're all from you.
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It seems appropriate that we should have a nice young man like Mr Milliband to take on the nice Mr Cameron. Sorry, Gordon, dour and lugubrious is out!
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How many people and who read "The Guardian" outside London.If I wanted to articulate my visions for the future throughout the country,the last paper I would go to is this paper.The Guardian is nothing more than gloryfied rag for London political "luvvies" set.If Milliband truly wanted to get a message out throughout the UK he should choose a source with a much wider distribution around the country or explain his vision in interviews with some of the bolshy commentators who would test the robustness of his argument.
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30#
Says more about you than Milliband.
Aren't you the one that would vote for the BNP rather than (was it Harman?)
Good to see the "name calling" tendancies remain at the fore of right wing debating skills.
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Just scanning the latest view from Peter Mandelson, it looks like his view on Labour is broadly similar to my own. He acknowledges the state of flux, praises David Miliband for his contribution, and cuts to the essence of the challenge facing members. I also note Harriet Harman is continuing to develop her new spine, and David MacShane concentrating on developing the real pluses Labour have to offer. It's the roundest view so far.
It's easy to beat down or get sucked in by the gesture politicians and those who just want to grab their turn at the wheel, but that strikes me as being useless and a waste of time. The Roman Empire never laid siege to a city but passed them by. Instead, they allowed the benefits of their governance to make themselves clear and reward people who signed up to their programme. This looks like the model of success Labour is beginning to develop.
People often confuse goals, processes, and outcomes. This leads to unrealistic ambitions, disasters, and regret. Everyone wants a better world but frustration obscures that and just causes infighting among a people. There's something to be said for focusing on the how. People can understand that, use it, and see for themselves. If Labour's message can tune slightly more towards that, I suspect, the enemies on Labour's flanks will scatter.
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If you want a good laugh, have a quick read of the comments about his article at the Grauniad website. Commenters from all political sides are incandscent with rage.
Hilarious.
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#30
excellent - had me laughing out loud. They couldn't polish Brown and they sure won't be able to polish mini-stool Miliband.
as for #6, dear old Chuck, what you need to ask oyourself is exactly why your man and your brand need detoxifying? What heinous crimes have they committed that make them nuclear waste to their electorate.
As for taking ten steps forward to get closer to the electorate, I think they'll find when they finally do that that the debate has moved on. No one wants you anymore. Tax and spend didn't work. It lead to waste, cash for peerages, a busted bank, a collapsing property market and the largest budget deficit since 1946.
We've all moved on. newLabour are occupying a space no-one wants to be. They stand for disempowering the individula, undermining his freedoms, taking awaty his self respect. In fact they stand for everything that is NOT British.
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Sorry, sp in comment 39.
"incandscent" should be "incandescent".
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If anyone in the Labour Party think they can take over from Gordon Brown they are very much mistaken. There is no-one at the moment who is big enough, so if they try, it will precipitate a General Election and Labour would undoubedly lose.
They should hold their nerve and try to ride out the present situation.
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#30 power_to_the_ppl
I agree 100% with yoru assessment. Miliband isn't even a rough diamond, just a polished t**d.
#37 Eatonrifle
It was quiet for a while. Have you crawled out from under the bedclothes?
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re: 37, Eatonrifle
*Yawn* see post 106 on the previous blog, it's clear from the context that I didn't mean it literally. And even if I did I wouldn't have to justify anything to you :p
re: 38, Charles
"The Roman Empire never laid siege to a city but passed them by. Instead, they allowed the benefits of their governance to make themselves clear and reward people who signed up to their programme. This looks like the model of success Labour is beginning to develop."
And look what happened to the Roman Empire!
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@38
Quick history lesson re the Romans and seiges
The Siege of Jerusalem in the year 70 was a decisive event in the First Jewish-Roman War, followed by the fall of Masada in 73. The Roman army, led by the future Emperor Titus, with Tiberius Julius Alexander as his second-in-command, besieged and conquered the city of Jerusalem, which had been occupied by its Jewish defenders in 66. The city and its famous Temple were completely destroyed.
That looks like a duck to me
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Sorry Nick, but your informants are wrong.
Miliband decided to try and unseat and replace Gordon Brown a month ago - along with his chums in the Miliband of Men.
He's been getting soundings and lining up support in a very discreet but highly organised manner since that time.
Along with his brother and an inner circle of 5-6 others (inc from time to time James Purnell) his aim was always to hit the ground running as soon as another by election went against the Party.
His letter to the Guardian is almost word for word what a reliable source gave me as his private view a good six weeks ago.
My guesstimate is that the PM has far less time left than people realise.
Check it out - people who were www.notbornyesterday.org were first warned of this move on 15th May 2008.
Read the link at http//:www.notbornyesterday.org/miliband.htm
Regards
Oldbutnofool x
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The most remarkable thing about Millibrands piece is that he assumes that the 'opposition' are the Tories.
They are not, they are simply there to fill-the-boots, by default, in England, if Labour cannot revive the economy in the next 24 months.
The real opposition are the SNP and Plaid but Labour are strangely silent about that.
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#37 Eatonrifle
Dear, dear, and you actually voted, do vote, and will vote NuLabour...........?
As me old nanny used to say, "Where there's no sense, there's no feeling"
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The political correspondant on the Sky web-site has cast Milliband in the role of Brown's assasin.
Not sure I agree - the article was too limp for an assasination attempt. To me it looks like Milliband is trying to goad someone else to plunge the knife in public so that he can 'appear' clean on this one.
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Sky did reveal one interesting bit of news..... recently Number 10 kept dodging the question of wether Milliband was present at the recent Obama Downing Street talks and conclude that there may already be a rift running between Milliband and Brown.
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If you want to know what's happening today, read Nick Robinson. If you want to know what's happening yesterday, read a newspaper. If you want to know what's happening tomorrow, read my comments.
Forgive the ego, but I've been quoted by the international media and won two awards for trolling on the internet. You guys are just small timers. That's okay by me because your dreg just makes me look good.
To address Robin's point: Britain used to be more purposeful, sociable, and patient. Getting some of that back into the mix isn't just what Britain used to be, it's what we have to be.
Remember, you heard it here first.
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re: 48
True, there's no sense or feeling in the Labour ranks, just a blind lust for control. They must be stopped.
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48#
Me and millions of others 1997, 2001, 2005 ring any bells Loser.
If you know what Cameron's Cons offer as a better alternative feel free to enlighten me OR enlighten everyone as no one seems to know (even himself).
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#51 - Oh NO - not meditation with attitude!
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Really?!? How surprising you and Peter agree! Well there's a shock.
That should tell you something Charles.
I've been around here long enough to remember when Charlie swore he was neutral, at least he's finally nailing his colours to the mast.
Welcome to the debate!
Oh and please refrain from belittling anyone who doesn't agree with you. It's just not cricket.
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"Why do I refuse to take it at face value?"
... perhaps Nick, that like so many other media political commentators these days, you've taken Benito Mussolini's nostrum to heart .... If the facts cannot be made to fit the theory, then the facts must be called lies ......
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#54,
Insightful, cutting and witty as usal...
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Eatonrifle:
Post 37:
'Good to see the "name calling" tendancies remain at the fore of right wing debating skills.'
post 54:
'Me and millions of others 1997, 2001, 2005 ring any bells Loser.'
You definitely have that Nu Labour trait called hypocrisy.
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Re #36 gavin_humph
You're missing the point, I think. It's not about who reads it but what the "Guardianistas" themselves like Polly Toynbee & Michael White are saying about "Duff" Gordon.
I strongly recommend you at least to have a look at David Miliband intervenes: Labour needs to change and change now. If, like me, you find the audio doesn't work, you can listen to Michael White: 'He didn't mention Gordon Brown once' on MP3.
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In case you hadn't noticed Nick, the leadership race has started. Milliband in the Guardian. Full page puff piece in the Evening Standard yesterday on Harriet Harman, praising her fine(!) *koff koff* performance at PMQs. Andy Burnham popping up in Mark Easton's blog., and I'm sure there'll be a load of Balls arriving shortly.
Of course, they'd do better going off on holiday and actually thinking about how to do their respective jobs better, but why do that when there's power to be fought over? Expect the internecine war over the next 18 months to be every bit as edifying as the last days of the previous Tory government. No wonder we feel comtempt for politicians.
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Re #51 Charles_E_Hardwidge
And how long is "Britain" going to last, thanks to your chums' asymmetric devolution?
Some insightful insider "dope" about how "Duff" Gordon will meet the challenge of the SNP on his native links would at least make a change from your usual claptrap.
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Peter Mandelson is in grave danger of looking statesmanlike. There's a place for fun and freedom but where it turns into immaturity it tends to end badly. His contribution to the body politic is thoughtful and timely. His advice is universally sound.
And I do tend more towards the neutral. Sound purpose and a sense of context is important. Studying both American and Japanese cultures is informative in this respect. People could move beyond taking the worst interrpetation and move more towards the better potential.
I don't debate. I discuss. Debate is a winners and losers game, and I'm mostly focused on excellence, sharing, and the long-term view. If the Tories weren't so bullish and the Liberals not so fond of wagging fingers, perhaps, some positive consensus would have space to emerge.
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Typo. I could've said the Roman Empire never routinely laid seige, but anyone who isn't nitpicking would get the point. Plus, a little more fact checking in other directions would be useful around here. It would make stuff more readable.
Japan won the peace. In many ways, Britain is more similar to Japan than America, and the post capitalism and globalisation situation we've been through isn't so different. Britain has a shattered industry and society, and a sense of purpose, cohesiveness, and playing the long game will help rebuild things.
Say it ain't so.
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It's been almost a week, but we still haven't seen Gordon Brown's Geoffrey Howe moment.
Instead of a public disection, we have the MilliBand of Brothers sniping from cover. At the moment they're missing, but pretty soon someone's going to make the kill shot.
Or to continue the motor racing analogy from earlier posts, we're in qualifying; waiting to see who gets pole position for the main race.
Intriguing times.
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#65 Charles
I'm sure there's a place for discussions, but this is a political blog - politics is about the power to take decisions.
Also, when you got needled, some of your own postings were more than a little barbed!
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It's probably a sign of advancing years, but I can't take any politician seriously who looks like a teenage school prefect, I'm afraid. Miliband is not the one.
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#65 Charles
"Britain has a shattered industry and society"
Hardly an evidence based statement, I would have thought.
Politically, it's not shattered yet, though it will be if Brownedov's "asymmetric devolution" is not addressed.
Personally I'll settle for "surgical separation" rather than "shattered" (with a bit of sticking plaster in the short term).
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Millibands accusations of overclaims by the Tories is somewhat tempered by an article steeped in them.
"Every member of the Labour party carries with them a simple guiding mission on the membership card: to put power, wealth and opportunity in the hands of the many, not the few."
*This* from a government that has overseen an increase in the rich/poor gap, stalled social mobility and has centralized power? did he type that with a straight face?
"I really believe that it is only our means, the political creed of the Labour party combining government action and personal freedom"
That sounds like an excellent creed and has little in common in the current Labour creed.
"If people and business are to take responsibility, you need government to act as a catalyst."
Well, you could start by not trying to weasel out of Labours contribution to the current financial mess? No? Oh well.
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#66 - SudaNim
Horse racing might be better. Lots of jockeying for position, improper use of the whip, a horrible pile up at Beecher's Brook and a rank outsider running wide to take the race.
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#65
I'll say it ain't so. Japan did not win the peace. Japan, like Germany, was bunged full of cheap US cash for decades to salve the US conscience and rebuild the economy.
The Uk post the second world war was bankrupt and put into further dire straights by a labour government that bungled the negotiation of a ruinous loan from the US that we have only just paid off.
Japan went into a ten year recession in the nineties when the rebuilding and the US cash had run out. It has barely got its act back together now.
You Newlabour bloggers are always asking for evidence, but don't you just love crediting the rest of the world with greater successes than our own.
This is the real problem with socialists; they don't actually like this country and they put on their rose tinted spectales about everywhere else.
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Nick, did it mean "Gordon we have polished the gun, loaded it for you and we will now retreat to a respectful distance for you to do the necessary."?
Its a bit like Geoffrey Howe. I can't remember what he said but the fact that he said it meant that Thatcher was on her way out.
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I think Labours biggest problem over the last few years is having bought into their own bull.
The attitude is one of "if the people don't like X, it's because they don't understand it." No concept of people disliking policy and ideas precisely because they _do_ understand it.
This is what they simply don't get, they repeat that they're listening ad infinitum, yet discard anything they don't want to hear.
Unless they reverse that hubris and arrogance they're facing a very, very long time out of power.
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I feel sorry for the Italian Foreign Minister having to hang around on the podium while the English hacks repeat questions endlessly on Labour leadership.
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It's started hasn't it?! Instead of Governing, Labour MPs have begun to turn on themselves...
Gordon has nothing else up his sleeve he should call an election - and if he is lucky, might actually win it. This will either shut his critics up or solve the problem of the leadership. A fourth term for the Conservatives ended up being their greatest defeat...
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If Miliband takes over - he has his work cut out. Labour has an image problem - they are the 'new nasty party' i.e:
- 42 days
- Pensions raid
- 10p tax
- Stealth taxes
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#71 threnodio
I presume you meant both meanings of "rank"?
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There's plenty around if people want to run some metrics or go digging. The few savvy people I've met tend to think the British economy is running on momentum. That's why ditching the contrary and insular attitudes, and becoming more forward thinking, team orientated, and getting over short-term pain is useful.
Most folks are capable but bad management or peer pressure can get in the way. It's the root of a lot of problems in Britian but if the tilt can aim in a more positive direction these faults can be transformed into strengths.
I can't think of a British brand that makes universal headlines. Everyone's heard of Apple and Sony but Britain is a complete vacuum. With enough flair and hard work this can change. Heck, the next Steve Jobs could be reading this comment now.
You gotta have little faith in yourself.
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"27. At 12:37pm on 30 Jul 2008, Pot_Kettle wrote:
@10
Maybe you should limit your contribution to zero if the only thing you can do is complain about people that actually have something to say just because you dont like what they are saying."
Oh dear, I seem to have upset you, you sensitive soul! Just incase you are going to fret you are not one of "likes the sight of their own words" although you do go close! Your wit is so biting I don't know I will be able to recover from it.
I will limit now myself on this blog to my usual quota of two comments.
PS The comment was addressed to Nick - so please don't think you have to reply to EVERYTHING that you disagree with even when it's not for your consideration.
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Charles E
Having a high self-regard for your own opinions about the future is fine.
The problem is that this government has expressed great opinions about OUR future then pretend that the land we were led to to is absolutely fine. (Just a tiny bit more "change" and everything will be perfect.)
If we all wore their spectacles, we could see England win the World Cup, poverty abolished in Africa, an educational miracle in our midst and an economy fit for the future.
Many of us don't really care which bunch of politicians are in power. Just what they do with that power. NOT what they say to us or talk about amongst themselves and - with respect to Nick - not even what they provoke commentators, or self-approving posters, to write.
Give us a bunch of people who realise that they don't actually own us or our incomes.
Change is not the same as improvement.
Spending is not the same as investment.
Passing laws is not the equivalent of delivering an improved society.
Getting other people to develop infrastructure is fine (PFI/PPP), but not so clever if you just load the burden of repayment onto our kids and it isn't just government borrowing. Most new schools and hospitals have NOT been developed via our present taxes.
What exactly has this mob done to replace power generation over the last decade? Indeed, what massive injection of R and D money have they poured into new technologies to replace old, carbon hungry resources?
What amazes me is that anyone really believes it's important to have a specific group of individuals in power. God forbid, but a random plane crash could take out a whole party's leadership (or a corporation's) at a major conference. At that point, it becomes the structure, not the words, that matter.
It really is what they DO that matters. Ideas are easy. Delivery is the hard bit.
Show why Brown and co could not have found a way to leave the 10p tax in place for the poorest.
Show me the economic miracle we've apparently experienced over a decade and I could even endorse your viewpoint.
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#73
The killer line was "I hope there isn't a monopoly on cricketing metaphors, (Thatcher had a few days earlier vowed to hit any challenger for six), but it's rather like sending your openers out to bat only to find, just as the first ball is bowled that their bats have been broken by the team captain."
When he said that there was an audible gasp from the MP's. He was refering to Thatcher undermining his attempts at negotiating in Europe. That is how a political assasination should be done! Milliband, Purnell and co wouldn't have the collective intelligence to come up with something that eloquent!
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#73 - thegangofone
You mean you want him to shoot himself in the foot again?
"It is rather like sending your opening batsmen to the crease, only for them to find, as the first balls are being bowled, that their bats have been broken before the game by the team captain" (Geoffrey Howe).
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Nick,
Remember your blog when Gordon was knifing Tony in the back?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2006/09/this_one_will_r.html
The chickens have come home to roost Mr Brown. No doubt you are not grinning now like you were in that blog photo.....
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#79 - oldnat
Indeed - and 'wide'.
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The leadership plot is gestating
(At least Harm-man's bid is deflating)
The Guardian's full
Of Miliband's bull
And it hardly needs any translating.
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#84 threnodio
Yes well done on the Howe quote.
As for the "gun", very metaphorically, I think hes done his feet a few times now. I think those pesky M.P.s are starting to quietly hope for something more drastic.
If I was a Labour supporter, and I am sure they still exist, many have already said he should avoid doing a Hague. Get all of the flak and Cameron gets the glory later.
That said I don't think Labour even now realises just how much doo doo they are in. Its going to take a long, long time to get trust back.
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Ahh. Wot goes around comes around Gordon.
But whats this:
New Labour won three elections by offering real change, and must do so again.
How can you offer change when you are the incumbent.
Will it be like the renewal after blair?
Hes half right though, hes cottoned on to the fact tha people want change, hes just being a tad optimistic if he thinks people want it from him.
Oh what the hell have a go any how.
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# 80
There is a 'British' (well English really) brand that is not only universally known but furthermore, has done more for the sum of human happiness than any economist, politician or religious leader can even remotely dream of.
I refer of course, to The Beatles.
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@81
Your comment was addressed to Nick
Oh well that makes everthing alright then
Apology accepted and I trust you will be limiting yourself to zero in future as two posts with no opinion is such a waste of computing power and associated Carbon footprint
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#80 Charles
So no response to my comments on your assertion of a "shattered society" then?
It's easy to argue against points which weren't made.
In response to your arguments, you clearly haven't considered the relative spends of Celtic and Rangers, as to which might win the Premier League. Indeed you completely ignore the prospects of a resurrection of Aberdeen's squad!
That, I think, is a clear refutation.
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Chuck @65,
Hmmm.... Your plain wrong assertions (or distortions), nonchalantly reduced to a 'typo' with anyone who questions you reduced to a 'nitpicker'. How very New Labour.
As for Japan wining the peace: I certainly wouldn't want to live there - or copy the nature of their society. If that's 'winning' I'm a happy loser.
You say "Britain has a shattered industry and society". I disagree with the first part (we are, after all, the fifth strongest economy in the world - and not having antiquated coal mining or tractor factories, btw.)
I agree with the second part regarding our shattered society, but would contend that this is attributable directly to the rise of the welfare state and the social policies (moral-relativism, educational malpractice [by not enforcing basic standards], multiculturalism, etc., etc.) championed by the very people who run - or support - this government.
After all, thing have not gotten any better during the past 11 years of New-Labour stewardship - in fact they have deteriorated in almost every area of public conduct.
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I have a lump of cheese in my fridge, it has been there for about 6 weeks and is starting to smell.
If Labour need someone to run the country, this piece of stale cheese is at a loose end and could step in.
It couldn't do any worse than the current government, and if it does fail, at least we can all say 'ah well, it was just some mouldy cheese - what did we expect?'
I think the british public might find that a little more reassuring than the current alternatives we have.
Crackers anyone?
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The Thatcher and Blair years gave people what they wanted but Britain didn't always make the best of that. Today, the new structure David Miliband is outlining is by the book perfect. While national goals are important the real success happens when people run with the plan.
Two of my favourite gurus are Peter F. Drucker and David Ogilvy. They're out of fashion with Masters of the Universe but the focus on practicality, customer relations, and quality are time tested and proven to deliver results. Britain can learn from that sense of purpose and context.
I'm not going to write a thesis on star quality in 60 words or less, but movie stars, business gurus, and Zen is about developing enlightenment. By working both ends we create a virtuous circle. As both work in perfect harmony, the master and student are indistinguishable.
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#80
What is the matter with Chuck Hogwash and all the other socialists who have such a downer on this country? They don't understand that the country is Great despite them not because of them.
So here are some names for Chuck and his mates:
Rolls Royce - number one supplier of aero engines world wide.
BAe Systems - world class defence and civil aerospace company
LandRover - world class auto manufacturer
Aston Martin - wrold class luxury catr manufacturer
Marconi - world class manufacturer of telecoms systems
Who do these people think invented the telephone, the television, the light bulb, where was Concorde developed? Inwhich country did the industrial revolution begin? Was it started by socialists? Of course not.
The problem for them of course is that socialists have not been responsible for anything except more pay, disruption, strikes and waste. They should stand aside immediately and let the country get on with its job. Cut the culture of dependency and meddling and waste.
And David Miliband wouldn't have the first idea how to do this nor any of his socialist mates.
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re: 95
"I'm not going to write a thesis on star quality in 60 words or less, but movie stars, business gurus, and Zen is about developing enlightenment. By working both ends we create a virtuous circle. As both work in perfect harmony, the master and student are indistinguishable."
I think you need to pull your thumb out of your bottom Charlie boy!
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Since we have learned in the past couple of hours that British Gas are hiking prices by 35%, everyone's favourite aunty has been fined a record 400,000 GBP for fixing phone-ins and the Lords have ruled that the SFO was acting lawfully in dropping the BaE enquiry, one could be forgiven for thinking that hitting rock bottom is not limited to the Labour party.
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I've just read the article. What an odious little two-faced creep David Miliband is.
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#96 - RobinJD
This would be the same LandRover that Ford have just flogged to Tatu because they don't know how to flog gas guzzlers to Sloane Rangers, would it?
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Having picked up the knife and goaded colleagues to stick it in Gordon's back - Milliband has now wiped off his finger prints from the handle:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7532691.stm
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And there's Scottish and Irish people from these islands who've made similar marks on history, but that is the past. Yes, people could pull random people and companies out of their ass but the big picture demands better goals and effort on the ground. Passive anger and dreaming of past glories doesn't cut it. Without grinding the question "What is the sound of one hand clapping?", the issue is "where do we go from today?"
By eschewing his own success, the Prime Minister is creating a space for people to crystallise their own ambitions. By developing the confidence to make things happen and work well with other companies, the people become successful. By these means the people are industrious, wealthy, and happy; Red tape evaporates, and society is at ease. At least, that's what the Tao tells me and it's been around longer than I have.
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Re #92 oldnat
Perfect!
There are area - particularly of Glasgow - where someone seems to be emulating his hero's fear to tread.
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#90 John Constable
Liverpool (England) gave the world the Beatles
Scotland still gives the world whisky - certainly gives me happiness (oh and 2.8 billion to the UK balance of payments).
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re: 99
Couldn't agree more.
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David Milliband is mainly shooting a broadside across the bows of the Conservative party in his statement. He makes a few opinionated claims (David Cameron described as "empty"), a little bit of the Uriah Heap's ("we need to be humble"). But when I read that he agreed with Jack Straw I took it to mean the Labour Party need to stand behind Gordon Brown... no need to mention the PM. After all, the bloke is on his holidays, even if, unbelievably, he gets criticised for what he wears on his holidays! I suppose the media would prefer he made an idiot of himself in baseball cap.
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24. Scotchoice
Thanks for sharing that.
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re: 103
"By eschewing his own success, the Prime Minister is creating a space for people to crystallise their own ambitions. "
What does this mean? Be specific.
"By developing the confidence to make things happen and work well with other companies, the people become successful. By these means the people are industrious, wealthy, and happy; Red tape evaporates, and society is at ease"
What does this mean? Be specific.
Hogwash every word you write is meaningless blather. Eloquence is not the same as intelligence you know!
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Re #75 Frank-Castle
"The attitude is one of "if the people don't like X, it's because they don't understand it."
Shame the blogosphere hadn't got going in '97 or there'd be thousands of similar comments against the late Major period's "we must present our policies better" from the NuLab lot who are so defensive here and the Tories would have been coming out with the same sort of dross as Charles_E_Hardwidge.
It didn't work out too well for Major in '97 and it won't work out so well for "Duff" Gordon now.
But do either NuLab or Tories want to change the system and minimise the length of their Buggins' turn in the wilderness? It would seem not.
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#54 Eatonrife
Sir, apart from having a faulty political outlook, you assume too much, having preconceived notions. Where have I ever written or indicated that I would vote for David Cameron?
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Further inside information..
http://harrietharman.blogspot.com/
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@ 20
He's not my favourite, but he gets the job done and is an effective communicator. - actually, his "not fit for purpose" phrase was THE phrase of the year, hehe - and he is better than some of the nonentities in this current Cabinet.
A Cabinet "of all the Talents" should be ALL talent, not bit talent and rest filler.
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Re #103 Charles_E_Hardwidge
An insightful and compelling response to the issues that troubled the formerly Labour voters of Glasgow East and on a par with "Duff" Gordon's concern for the plight of poor Maggie Curran.
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107
GB doesn't need a baseball cap to make an idiot of himself.
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Hazel Blears Gets A Cookie-Monstering
(thanks to scotchoice for providing the previous link at 24)
http://www.guynews.tv/search/label/Hazel Blears
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#95 Charles E
Little disappointed that you did not deliver a brief description of the wonderful economy New Labour has created.
I've searched for it, to no avail, and hoped you would deliver a thumb-sketch.
The best management gurus normally talk a lot of common sense. The worst management consultants tend to take the bits they want and use whatever it takes to make money. (A lot of it from government stacked with people who haven't a clue that a good presentation tells you nothing about an ability to deliver! In our case, it seems that government has bought the hype without understanding the consequences.)
What on earth was that guff about "movie stars... develop enlightenment"?
What exactly did Mickey Mouse or Greta Garbo enlighten - apart from a few hours in a cinema?
Zen may teach that eventually you can achieve perfect harmony, where master and student are indistinguishable.
It may surprise you to realise that politicians are not my "Masters". Just elected representatives I'm obliged - and willing - to pay for. As long as they behave themselves and don't go on trips to fantasy land.
So what point were you trying to make?
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Charlie, Charlie, Charlie,
Can I have a pint of what you're on please?
"GB is eschewing his success"? What success exactly?
"Red tape evaporates" - but Gordon is the master of red tape. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if, when he dies, GB was resurrected as a Red Tape Worm.
"Society is at ease" and "People are happy". Well, not where I live they're not.
Allowing people to "crystalise their own ambitions". You mean he's been so rubbish other people have begun dreaming of power? OK I'll accept that one. Probably not intentional on his part though!
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Charles E
"...Zen is about developing enlightenment. By working both ends we create a virtuous circle".
The problem is that politicians seem to end up in a jerk circle, convinced that their satisfaction is a primary task and "the others" will work out how important it is for MPs and Ministers to effect "change".
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I cannot believe the amount of guess-work that is going on here. Why on earth can't we appreciate the message Milliband was giving; about party unification and focus on the party's policies. The whole effort into this story (Milliband setting his leadership stall) is invented as far as I can see.
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#109 pttp
I wasn't around during CEH's last incarnation.
Did he do the same thing last time -
burble, burble, then brief clarity (with nasty asides), then burble, burble?
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Charles E H
Sticking with Sceptic Max on 60
Zen Latin required
Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur
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re: 120, grawth
""Red tape evaporates" - but Gordon is the master of red tape. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if, when he dies, GB was resurrected as a Red Tape Worm."
LOL
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re: 123
Yep he burbled more than a mountain stream.
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No wonder the elderly are so scared to open the door.
http://bp1.blogger.com/_iZujY6nbuls/SIn0iHoSmFI/AAAAAAAAAHQ/aKBy3-NGngA/s1600-h/knocking+at+your+door.jpg
Thanks to lordBeddGelert
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#122 sleepingbennyboy
Of course it all has to be guess work, since few politicians actually speak plainly to the voters, it's all in code designed to impress the factions in their own party that they hope will support them.
Don't know where you are from, but in Scotland, it's fabulous to listen to Labour aspirants try to find words that delivers the message "I'd like to be a Socialist, but the bosses in London won't let me." or Annabelle Goldie using words which give support to the London Tories (with a coded message to "stay off Scotland's patch, If I tell you to").
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Charles:
It pains me to see you having a little dig at me. I really don't know what I've done to deserve it. In fact, like many others on this blog I am an advocate for helping those less fortunate than myself, and, well, you certainly are less fortunate than myself, and, I will say many others on this blog.
Sooooo, you've been quoted in the international media??? You're such a star, hope you got your facts right though. Can't imagine the horror at seeing your noble words with a few 'typos' strewn about the place. I have to say it must be wonderful to be in your company. Such elegance of thought, such wit, in fact lots of wit, and I think others on here will agree with me on this Charles: you're absolutely full of wit. Yes Charles, you're defintely full of wit.
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Nu-Labour's future: what does it hold?
Well they'll wait for things to unfold,
Then two years of reflection
A reluctant election
And finally they shall be told.
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Will Milliband survive the cabinet reshuffle.
Surely, he has not been very good as foreign secretary so must have been on the list to go, Smith and Darling should also be seriously worried about their jobs.
So, if Milliband does lose his job surely people will say it is because of what he said in his Guardian article. If he stays it will highlight the weakness of Gordon Brown, he even has to keep people in their jobs in case they plot agianst him.
However, Milliband has now proclaimed his loyalty, well sort of anyway. So, when will Gordon hold his restructuring of the cabinet. It should be held before the party conference so he must be sat in his chair dithering again.
Just get on with it, reorganise the cabinet, then call a general election with the new team, then when labour lose thier majority the new leader can be appointed.
This is just so much fun. It's like watching a car crash in slow motion.
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#122
It is simple mp's these day of all colours say one thing and mean another, its only natural for us to have to resort to filtering out the guff.
You have seen it on tv given the way any mp makes a statement or answers any simple question - it is misdirection all the time so you can not hold them to anything they said.
I will reiterate this - that is mps of all colours (labour, lib dem and Tory to some extent) - they all do it.
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#128 oldnat.
Indeed, I take your point.
But, I do feel that politicians do tell us things quite clearly, I really do. But I appreciate (frustratingly so) that they have to be very careful of what they say-and to whom-and at what particular time- as the media jump on their every word and put it out of context as soon as is possible to do so.
I read his article and took away no other message that the ones he clearly set out to do so.
The BBC's coverage of this is speculative- that isn't journalism is it?
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#93 - scepticmax
I think you need to check the dictionary definition of 'socialist' before you start tarnishing the political philosophy by describing Milliband (or anyone else from new labour) as a socialist.
A socialist government would not have presided over the widening gap between rish and poor, nor would they have regressively taxed the labour force by removing the 10p tax band.
One thing that New Labour are certainly not is socialist - that's how they got elected in the first place.
In the UK - socialism is now a dirty word, mainly because the proletariat have been dumbed down by a virtually state run media (tabloids, TV, radio), who prey on their inferiority complex and divert their blame from the rich minority to the immigrants and other such 'easy targets'.
All the successful industries you listed could not have existed without a hard working and committed workforce, not just as the result of entrepreneurship and old money. By listing them as great successes - you yourself are promoting socialism.
This country has a great problem with socialism - brought on by the thatcher years - but what you don't realise is that most of the people in this country (except the ruling class) are part of the workforce and therefore socialist.
I suspect you are merely petite bourgeoisie (unless you are a 'industry owner') - someone who desires to be part of the ruling class, but I'm afraid will never be.
It's the admiration of the ruling classes by the Petite Bourgeoisie that keeps the whole thing working.
Divide and conquer my friend - you have been divided and conquered.
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That's pretty much it. The media has exhausted cruelty and running flags up poles. Now, they're plumbing stupid. It's one reason why I don't pay much attention to them anymore. Their circulation numbers are softer than Cameron's polling so they'd sell their used knickers to get a sale. It's a waste of talent if you ask me, but people make their choices.
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Clearly the hounds are circling around Brown, but at this stage non are going to come out and plunge the knife. This is manouvering for the leadership challenge by stealth. That Miliband wants the PMs job is without doubt, but he cannot say so openly. That would be suicide.
Mps have a long holiday ahead of them and the state of the party under Brown will be on their minds. Inevitable the pressure to rid themselves of Brown will grow. Why? Most face political oblivion at the next election.They will not go down with Brown
As for Miliband hes probably the one most acceptable to most people out of a pretty undistinguished bunch, and thats probably the ultimate cost of Browns premiership, those who are the rising stars are where he chose to leave them, on the back benches.
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#131 Raindancer
You've made a point, but not too sure what the point actually suggests?
Higher powers that lay underneath and underground and control us?
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Politicians do lie all the time, it's in their nature. But let's not forget Ed 'so what' Balls, who told the truth for once in his life last March. I'm not buying the whole 'so weak' excuse, as if anyone ever says that.
http://www.anorak.co.uk/money/181973.html
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re: 136
Strange how your third eye is deceived by Labour's lies and spin. You don't seem to understand the calculation behind Miliband's message, or the significance of what it leaves out. This isn't media froth, Charles. You either can't see it, in which case you're blind, or you refuse to, in which case you're a fool. Either way you're highly qualified for membership of the Lie-bore party!
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Nick if you dont think Milliband is firing the opening salvo in a leadership challenge then its time for you to retire mate.Its a bit bleedin obvious to me.
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#134 sleepingbenny boy
What do you make of this then -
"We need to offer hope for the future, a real and complete vision for the future. I'm proud to be Scottish, I'm passionate about Labour values and I want to see the Labour Party, Scotland's Labour Party, back in power to deliver for ordinary people." (Cathy Jamieson candidate for Scottish [non] Labour leader)
Your #138 may well provoke conspiracy theories the like of which you may never have seen.
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@135, TheresOnly1Soupey
A workforce!=socialism.
The only really socialist businesses in the UK are the true co-operatives, the success of other businesses are down to the workforce *and* management.
As for having a problem with socialism in the UK, that's because its a failed set ideologies at any but the smallest of scales.
Like with most collective ideologies, it fails to take into account the differences in people and humanities tendency towards self-interest and hierarchies.
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It's a great strength of Labour and the Prime Minister that ministers are rising to the occasion and big enough to go out by themselves. If they can help Britain develop similar leadership and sociability, perhaps, things can take a great leap forward. I'll believe it when I see it but there's no point in crushing potential before it's had a chance to flower.
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Re #136 Charles_E_Hardwidge
and there was silly me thinking it was the Sun wot won it for that nice mr wossname
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We are offered only despair and despondency from people behaving like vermin fighting to save themselves
They did not even give us the courtesy of an election when they appointed their leader. In their arrogance they expected us to accept their choice. The opinion of the electorate was of no importance
There should have beeen a General Election then and now it is an emergency situation for us
We have seen the ridiculous Harman staking her claim, is this the same horrendous creature who was sacked by the BLIAR in the early days because she could not work with the ineffectual Frank Field. As she failed to work with him then just who is there for her to work with
Who will save us from even the thought of her. The Labour Party is in such a mess and in such decline anything could happen
Now we have Milliband - over promoted purely because there is such a lack of talent in that Party - a midget in the shadows of past Foreign Secretaries of all parties
You may be interested to know that we recently had a pigeon problen, and the way to move then on (bloddlessly) was to introduce a Harris Hawk. This was very effective and a very quick solution. The hawk perched on the highest poit of the building - he surveyed the unwanted incumbents and they left
Clearly there is no such hawk in their ranks to clear us of our labour party pigeons, someone able to rise to the heights, to observe and understand what is wrong with that one time but now spent poitical force.
Much has been written of their failures, the squandered billions, their tinkering over the years that has made so much worse than when they started in 1997. The splitting our our nation and the removal of our freedom
It would appear they cared only for themselves and the trappings of power. Yes they are loathed and they can only blame themselves for that
They longer they put off the General Election the greater the punishment they will recieve from the electorate
It is not Harman's or Aunt Milli's moment but rather the time for David Cameron and his Conservatives, but let us take care because we do not want another sickening stage managed entry into Downing Street. We would rather see the new Government arrive and ready to sort out the largest pigeon mess ever in a planned and orderly manner.
Be ready Mr Camerson for the sake of all of us.
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I think that Labour missed an opportunity to go for some young blood last year and it was a pity that Brown never had to face a challenge for the leadership.
I would support Milliband if it came to it
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Nick, you can't take David Miliband's article at face value firstly because you are a Tory and secondly because you are working for a cynical media that doesn't believe in honesty! That same cynicism has been taken up by the rest of the country, along with the public and having done so has turned people off politics as they don't believe the people involved in it.
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Obviously, everyone wants Gordon Browns' job. They're not going to say, "Hey, I want to be PM and lets protest against him" they're going to do it very slowly and when the right time comes. At the moment, I think that Jack Straw is the right man for the job. In his press conference today, he spoke as a leader not as a ordinary mp. If I remember correctly, he said that his article in the Guardian is not about personality and is not about Gordon but issues. But then why does he say, "The problem with David Cameron is the reverse. His problem is he is a conservative, not a radical. He doesn't share a restlessness for change. He may be likable and sometimes hard to disagree with, but he is empty. He is a politician of the status quo — even a status quo he consistently voted against — not change."
So I think David has not really said the right thing.
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Re #143 Frank-Castle
Socialists do indeed seem to be an endangered species. It would be fascinating to read NuLab philosopher Charles_E_Hardwidge's analysis of how the Labour Party "keep the red flag flying here" and to listen to the applause of our avowed socialist, brother grandantidote.
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If Labour change their leader, there might be a bit of a "dead cat bounce" in the opinion polls similar to when Brown took over before Labour once again sink to their previous low levels of popularity. They may well sink even lower as the public will get the message that Labour have no confidence in themselves.
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I met David Milliband when he spoke at an educational conference in front of 200 academics and educationalists and he was the rudest speaker I have ever had the misfortune to listen to. He was incredibly arrogant and refused to take any questions through the chair. At the end of his presentation many of us were left aghast at his conduct. If he is the future PM of this country then pity help us all - I would wish ANYONE else to become leader of the labour party before him.
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Which UK Foreign Secretary signed the agreement that allows UK citizens to be extradited to the US for crimes that they committed in the UK - with no reciprocation?
Was it this one, or whoever preceded him?
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I'm just here to discuss the topic for a while, so I'm not going to respond directly to your comment (#149). When people start arguing or cutting into folks things have probably gone too far. People can weigh that against what some anonymous mouth hiding behind an internet connection has to say.
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I'm not a socialist nor have I ever been a member of the Labour Party. I just think the government is best placed to lead the country for now. The Tories and Liberals can make a useful contribution but neither are ready for government.
Anyway, I've laid out my general philosophy and sentiments over the past year or so and not inclined to repeat the whole lot again. What I do think is important is people focus on doing things and getting along over the long haul.
Success is in your hands. It's people who make decisions that lead to better products and communities. That's quite a challenge and something people should enjoy. But you can't just procrastinate. You've got to make it happen.
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Re #148 CrossHST
"cynical media"
Welcome to the fun, first timer. I'll take it gently.
Would you care to elaborate on which media are cynical or is it all of them?
The are a lot of Tories on this blog who also take the view that much of the media are cynical in NuLab's favour, so you might want to clarify.
I'm an old Liberal who just wonders whatever happened to freedom of speech.
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Charles you have been exposed. Anyone Googling your username can see what guff you've been spouting on other sites, and I suggest that they do.
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Re #156 Charles_E_Hardwidge
If you didn't actually come here to debate anything but just to spout propaganda your back should now be echoing with a round of virtual applause.
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Re #157 Charles_E_Hardwidge
"I'm not a socialist nor have I ever been a member of the Labour Party ....
You've got to make it happen."
A fellow traveller, eh. Since when?
As the topic of Nick's threads for a while now has be whether the NuLab leadership should change or not, I can only presume your last instruction indicates that you are in the dithering camp. Reminds me of someone.
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Charles,
Perhaps your fan club could organise a whip round for you.
Then you could use the money to fix your spaceship so that you can go home .......
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Most of my comment stacks up and I'm generally cool with other people, so I've got nothing to worry about. In spite of positively acknowledging some stuff and cutting slack, I figure, most of the comment in here is just arguing and windups. That's why I don't post much anymore.
Life is for living and I don't see much profit in adding to the noise. Unless Britain is going to empty like usenet or get shut down like the Washington Post's comments, people need to get over short-term competitive behaviour and start developing more positive consensus. But, again, it all comes down to what you want.
Moaning and playing to the peanut gallery is easy but as any decent manager or marketer will tell you, it doesn't get anything done or give much of a clue what to produce unless you're in the business of running companies into the ground. And that's pretty much why I can get behind the focus Miliband is promoting. It works.
Life is choice. YOUR choice. Choose wisely.
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For a supposedly harmonious Buddhist you certainly wind up a lot of people. Have you ever asked yourself why?
I saw this earlier and thought I'd copy and paste it as I knew you'd come out with more pompous rubbish. This is someone else responding to Charles' windbaggery:
'I have noticed you are very active on Scott's board and offer what seem to be some pretty definitive statements on what the games industry needs. [....] However for the life of me I cannot say I know what you do and what your contribution to the games industry has been. You offer many anecdotes of companies, or situations where you were the one man in the room to see the problem while all around were willfully ignorant.'
You know best eh Charles? ;)
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Miliband was right in what he said - but Labour should also aim to point out the (many) weak spots in the Conservatives in order to gain the confidence of the electorate.
An interesting aside was the fact that he also nearly lost his rag with the press during the conference with the Italian Foreign Minister.
This was further evidence of my view that SOME elements of the media (BBC not included) are deliberately stoking a witch-hunt against the Government and the Labour Party.
Thank you BBC for stooping to the low level of partisan bias that fills the commercial media.
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raindancer68 @131,
If Milipede is indeed a Zionist, then that's his best (possibly only) atttribute.
Being a Zionist means supporting the right of the Jews to a free and independent state in their ancestral homeland. Not a bad thing one would have thought: most other peoples right to such a thing are really ever open to question. But when it comes to the Jews....
I guess it come down to whether or not one believes in the contents of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and other great works of malicious fiction.
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Folks have pretty much turned Nick's blog comments section into what it is without my input. Plenty of people who used to be here have now left. I'll let the reader decide whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.
And, yeah. I've enjoyed having a few conversations with Scott Miller. If you want to dig up some other comments you'll find I've been pretty spot on with design, technology, and industry issues.
Speaking of which, this topic hasn't filled up with 1001 posts of people whining, so Labour must have hit the right note with a lot of people. That's cool. Maybe the other parties and media will take stock.
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TheresOnly1Soupey @135,
If you re-read what I wrote in 93, you'll see that I didn't mention the word 'socialism'.
What 'socialism' do you mean?
The one tried in the United Soviet of Socialist Republics?
The one tried in the National Socialist Party of German Workers?
The one tried by the British Labour Party in the 1960s and 70s?
Or perhaps some utopian version that will work one day when we've killed all the nasty capitalists?
Do tell.
As for what I am - landlord, robber baron, petite bourgeoisie, horny-handed worker, or slavish-chavish underclass - it's none of your business.
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Just in from planet la la, dangerously tedious individual with tendancy to clog media with delusional and self important rants on the loose. Send him home before he bores you all to death...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re #163 Charles_E_Hardwidge
& #159 power_to_the_ppl
"Most of my comment stacks up and I'm generally cool with other people, so I've got nothing to worry about."
Yes, consistency above all, eh. As a connoisseur of the spectacle of the Scottish Labour Party and Bendy Wendy's demise, I particularly like two of your older posts from this blog:
"This is a shrewd and brave move from Wendy Alexander." 12:33pm on 06 May 2008
and
"A referendum is a great risk." 5:45pm on 07 May 2008 (after Brown dened it at PMQs)
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Enormous gas and electricity hikes = more tax for Labour. What are the odds they'll say they 'feel our pain' on this and will 'listen' and then do diddly squat about it (and then waste said tax)?
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I can use that.
In spite of not thinking the Tories or Liberals are fit for government, I don't go out of my way to make cheap jabs from behind the anonymity of the internet. Indeed, I can and have complimented them on sound policy and attitude. It's the mature thing to do.
Try it some time.
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re: 171
Yep, he's neutral all right lol!
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Charles if I may
Socialism: The equal share of unequal effort
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ref 123
I assume the "brief clarity" you're referring to was the period when Captain Zen was busy refining his cod-philosophy rather than inflicting it on others.
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Re #167 Charles_E_Hardwidge
"Speaking of which, this topic hasn't filled up with 1001 posts of people whining, so Labour must have hit the right note with a lot of people. That's cool. Maybe the other parties and media will take stock."
Do hurry off and report the good news to the Harperson. She and her chums will be so thrilled.
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172#
Actually its more tax to the Government not to Labour, just to lift the blue fog that's blinding you.
The tax on domesric fuel of course is 5% not 17.5% thanks to Labour when in oposition to your party the Tories.
Hang on that's not your party you're the BNP man.
Shouldn't you be getting ready for tonights torch light parade somewhere?
LOL
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163. At 6:50pm on 30 Jul 2008, Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
Life is for living and I don't see much profit in adding to the noise.
Lord save us all if you decide to get loud.
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If the Labour Party cannot even manage its own leadership (s)election process in a proper, dignified manner then what hope is there fo them to run the government efficiently.
Labour was elected they have a resposibility for the whole country - not just looking after their own supporters. Airing internal party squabbles or diffferences of opinion should take second place to running the government. It would bemore re-assuring to hear about legitamate discussions - even disagreements - about future policy. Especially if it should Labour was actually learning from the successes and failures of the past twelve years.
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Miliband was right in what he said - but Labour should also aim to point out the (many) weak spots in the Conservatives in order to gain the confidence of the electorate.
An interesting aside was the fact that he also nearly lost his rag with the press during the conference with the Italian Foreign Minister.
This was further evidence of my view that SOME elements of the media (BBC not included) are deliberately stoking a witch-hunt against the Government and the Labour Party.
Thank you BBC for NOT stooping to the low level of partisan bias that fills the commercial media.
(apologies for the mistype earlier!)
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169#
So what's you other identity(s)
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re: 178
It's a waste of time arguing with a zealot! Come back when you've taken off your red blindfold.
re: 180
'If the Labour Party cannot even manage its own leadership (s)election process in a proper, dignified manner then what hope is there fo them to run the government efficiently.'
None whatsoever unfortunately!
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155. oldnat
Blair signed it, Bush tried to reciprocate but congress would not ratify it. Hence we now have our lopsided agreement
An agreement designed to speed the extradition of terrorists used on bankers and now computer hackers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5171266.stm
And now
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7533755.stm
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Charles, I've just been for a 20 mile run, I'm a little blue in the face and feeling slightly off, so I thought I'd return to the blog for a little rest and recreation. What do I find on my return? You Charles, yes you. I'm begining to think it's no coincidence that were clashing like this. Do you work for the government Charles, are you watching me this very minute? I'm a worried man Charles. Some of the other bloggers have pointed out how you seem to be everywhere in the blogosphere. Now how is that possible? Only a slick political machine could be omnipresent in the blogosphere like that. Are you a spinner Charles. No, not one of those folk singers from the 70s, you know, someone who lies about things for politicians. Is that what you are? It's a chilling thought Charles.
Naw, forget it, you'd need to have brains to do that. I take it all back, you're just a simple man telling simple tales. Tattybye for now.
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I think this issue goes well beyond the other errors Nu Labour has made.
Blair has turned us into the 51st State of the USA.
This one reason alone is to vote them all out.
Mind you I can think of 50 other reasons.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQrH6egVHaU
No Alastair Darling, you don't solve the problem by increasing the supply of oil, you solve the problem by TAXING IT LESS. Ohhh yes I forgot you haven't got any money because Lie-bore wasted it, that's why you don't reduce tax! Doesn't matter, just lie about it!
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#184 Carrots etc
Thanks
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I'm too lazy to be a politician and too crap at writing to be a journalist, so you're quite safe. That could change if someone pokes me with a big stick but running the Illuminati comes with better pay and conditions.
Anyway, I'm pretty pumped about the government talking up success and society. I figure, folks need to discover things for themselves, and giving people space to do that is the right thing to do.
An earlier comment talked about Labour's responsibility but people have a responsibility to themselves and their communties. And if they can discover that inner star quality that's got to be a good thing.
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Charles E
It would be a shame if you backed away from Nick's blog. But you do make it easy for people to take a pot at you. Surely that's not the purpose?
"Moaning and playing to the peanut gallery is easy but as any decent manager or marketer will tell you, it doesn't get anything done or give much of a clue what to produce unless you're in the business of running companies into the ground."
OK, so you're a management consultant. Big deal. Maybe you forgot that we travel to work among, actually work with and depend on the "peanut gallery" making and buying products and services in order to keep companies going.
Sounds as though you have opinions on the games industry. If they didn't pander to the peanut gallery, they wouldn't make much money!
The "peanut gallery" get a vote that counts as much as yours.
"If you want to dig up some other comments you'll find I've been pretty spot on with design, technology, and industry issues."
I know quite a few people, who I admire, who could claim something along those lines. BUT they tend to be a little more circumspect.
Design, technology and industry issues covers rather a broad span.
Design of what? Games, cars, nuclear reactors, fishing rods, IT systems, high-rise buildings?
Technology? Surely even you have some limits? Are you into submarine activities, rocket science, IT systems again, pharmaceuticals, machine tools?
Industry issues. That's a bit broad. Which industries? Logistics, chemicals, forestry, construction, banking, defence...?
If you've been "spot on", then I guess you've never been involved with government. Pity. Maybe you could have helped them as purchasers and "the others" as suppliers to get it right once or twice on our behalf.
Please don't say you're just the guy with the high level conceptual presentation slides. Any monkey can do that - which is where I assume you found the peanut gallery.
In any organisation it is difficult to achieve some sort of cohesion between the managers and the managed.
In political terms, it is truly hard to have a few remote blokes and gals wanting to believe that all the rest of us are really buying in to a "focus".
If you are so capable and well received, how come you didn't tell Brown and Darling how they could have retained the 10p tax rate for the poorest, without all the additional "credits" and special allowances baloney?
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#131 raindancer
If Miliband is a Zionist, then I find that commendable, and the only decent quality I can find about him. Israel is one of the very few, indeed perhaps the only democratic country in the middle east. As to him having Jewish roots, would indeed that he had religious values. I am an old-fashioned person, I respect all men (and women) who believe in the Almighty and try to follow a path of goodness and love. I'm afraid Milibank probably follows his faith in much the same manner as Gordon Brown, the son of a Churchman, follows his. GB's behaviour in taking office was hardly the way of a devout Christian. There is however, a strange justice at work. "Do as you would be done by". Miliband's devious behaviour is not the prescribed path of a practicing Jew, so Brown the prodigal Christian will be confronted by his exact mirror image in the Jewish faith. True justice, true multicultural equality!
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187#
All right sorry for teasing earlier, though I'd have to say going off in a huff is a goodway of not responding to the point about VAT on fuel at 5% not the preferred Tory rate of 17,5%.
As for the oil point of course the answer is increasing supply compared to demand, have you not noticed the drop in oil prices and petrol prices at the punp already. Of course that may not last BUT the Supply/Demand equation is exactly the answer IN MY OPINION that is
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#186 Carrots etc
"this issue" Do you mean extradition to the USA?
If so, I agree it was criminal incompetence to effectively make all UK citizens subject to US law on a one-way ticket - and I get criticised for wanting independence for my country!
I wasn't in the country when this happened, though you guys will enlighten me how brave Labour MPs and the Tories fought it.
I'll cool my ire, and look on the bright side. All we need to is bribe some sheriff and DA in the USA to ask for the extradition of every MP who supported this measure, on the basis that they acted against US interests by sending criminals to the colonies (as the UK did before the War of Independence).
They can all then be extradited to the USA and spend 60 years in jail.
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Brownwdov
190 - fairlyopenmind at para 3 has unmasked the Consultant. It's none other that Charles.
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#138 sleepingbennyboy
Of course "higher powers lay underneath our political system" (and the western world in general) and "control us," as you put it. All this Tory v Labour, Left versus Right, is just a circus on a merry-go-round to distract us. Ultimately, it means nothing.
Power_to_the_ppl mentions Ed Balls, well, like the Shadow Foreign Secretary, George Osbourne, he's attended a few "Bilderberg" meetings in his time, as has David Miliband. The Bilderbergers, headed by David Rockefeller and Henry Kissinger, meet in complete secrecy, and involve the political, cultural and business elite of the western world. Along with other secret societies, they have great influence on the world.
Read David Rothkopf's book "Superclass: The Global Power Elite and the World They Are Making." To quote Rothkopf: "A global elite now run the planet and have usurped the power of national governments while ensuring laws constrained by borders are all but obsolete. They run our governments, our largest corporations, the powerhouses of international finance, the media, world religions, and, from the shadows, the world's most dangerous criminal and terrorist organisations.This elite see national governments as residues from the past whose only useful function is to facilitate the elite's global operations. Their connections to each other have become more significant than their ties to their home nations and governments." Rothkopf is a former Deputy Under-secretary of Commerce For International Trade under President Clinton and managing director of Kissinger and Associates, so he knows what he's talking about.
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Sorry Brownedov, that last post was intended for thegangofone. I have messed up on this one.
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#138 sleepingbennyboy
Told you!
You have awoken a sleeping midget.
First CEH, now the Jewish conspiracist.
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I'm not really interested in the politics; I'm more concerned about the BBC's political editor's ability to use punctuation.
Perhaps, he should have a word with John Humphrys who is very keen on this kind of thing.
John Brooks
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Re #194 threnodio
So it would seem. A lot of Google refs on his IT stuff so perhaps he's NuLab's data security guru.
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193. oldnat
The main issue being erosion of civil liberties. 42 days, right to trial by jury, etc, but Yes this extradition treaty is the most outrageous piece of legislation ever passed in the UK.
Any publicity hungry US prosecutor can now have you across the pond without having to show prima facia evidence of a crime being committed.
Prime example why police and security services need to be kept on a tight lead and how they will use any legislation available to their or any end.
Interesting example of legislation creep below:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7520598.stm
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Re #193 oldnat
What a good idea, but they ought to take their MSPs too as accomplices.
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192. Eatonrifle
Just out of interest how you square the hypocrisy of working to increase oil production to bring down prices, while increasing taxation on fuel so that we all use less.
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re: 192
No I left for food but I'm back now and apology accepted. It's not the VAT that's the issue it's the other tax on it--- we pay some ridiculously high percentage, something like 117%. What is the justification for this level of taxation? Why is our petrol the most expensive? I think we know the answer to that. I think once the General Election approaches the Tories will pledge to keep VAT at 5% in order to not lose the Middle England vote. If they don't, and insist on raising it, then shame on them!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#166, ScepticMax
# 191, Phoenixarisen
Zionism comes in many forms and is multifaceted. It's not just about affirming Israel's right to self determination.
The truth is, that the Jews have a free and independent state, thanks to kicking out the Palestinians who formerly lived there (with elite British/US help). I know lots of tribes and populations have been displaced in past centuries, so I'm not going to belabour this point and play the blame game, because all races/countries have got different levels of blood on their hands, including my race, the English.
True, Israel is a democracy, but I don't see much multiculturalism on show there, like good old Blighty. Can you imagine if an Englishman or Scotsman stood for PM there? There would be an outcry. As for Israel's treatment of Arabs, well, the Jewish state's record isn't good on that, now is it? Let's face facts, the Israeli state is propped up thanks to the largesse of US administrations going back to the 1950s, and the rabid support of Christian fundamentalists as well. And today, the Jewish lobby AIPAC and their Neocon brethren have virtually infiltrated all levels of US secret and public government. I'd call that a takeover, personally.
@ 197, "oldnat"
"Conspiracy theory" is brought up by people to stifle debate. Mind you, you said "conspiracist". You probably say "get a life" a lot, too, eh?
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Should Cameron be preparing to face a Milliband led Government?
Well I can't see Gordon Brown making it to a general election at this rate (although Labour people still may prefer the gutless non confrontation option).
Cameron should be prepared to face a new challenge, other than Brown. A Labour leadership challenge would bring debate out into the open and would force the Tories to expand on their policies.
Even so - I don't think it matters who the Conservatives face, Brown, Milliband, Harman, anyone........... so long as they are well prepared and ready for the fight.
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#200 - CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
There are 2 possibilities, neither particularly edifying.
1. It is bad law, badly written. By this I mean that the powers exercised by the police (in the case you have highlighted), local authorities and all the other organisations which have powers of detention and/or surveillance were never intended for such purposes and are being routinely abused -
or -
2. It is bad law because it was precisely what was intended and that a climate of fear has been used if not deliberately fostered in order to put into force draconian measures which fly in the face of every democratic principle and make a joke of the concept of personal liberty.
Either way, it is totally unacceptable and it is high time a principled politician had the decency to take advantage of the present political flux and put the issue centre stage.
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Camerons biggest challenge?
Cameron has so much to repair and several huge elephants in the room - all issues inherited from Labour that could kill a Tory government if not handled properly.
The Thatcher government was only 'saved' from electoral defeat by the Falklands war.
In government Cameron is going to have to face a huge challenge - the UK has been wrecked by Labour and things will surely get worse before they get better. Can the Conservatives keep the public on-side?
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Charles E
I've met, worked with and admired guys and gals holding different perspectives. That includes Buddhists, ex-KGB people, too many nationalities and religions to recall.
The real issue is whether Blair/Brown/ Mandelson aided by pit-bull Campbell really delivered the bright new dawn.
I just don't see it.
Just a complete inability to manage our money - taxes - in an appropriate manner.
Now we have Harman wanting to change the emphasis of the law, so it's more justifiable for a woman to kill a man.
Do you remember "Tough on crime and tough of causes of crime"? Must have been an agreed policy at one point, surely?
The cause of crime is criminals.
Being poor, or in some way disadvantaged, does NOT make you a criminal. If that were the case, we'd have 5 or 6 million dangerous people on the streets every night.
Being rich doesn't stop you being one either.
Crimes of various degrees are committed by people who should know better (so called background and education) but who lie/ cheat/steal/kill or harm others.
What do we do with people who choose to break the law?
Apply living conditions that pensioners can't aspire to.
Why? Because Human Rights say that people should be treated decently.
So, you rape and kill an OAP or child and you have "Universal Human Rights" to protect you? For God's sake it just gets too far for reason.
If Human Rights are "universal" then let's allow killers and rapists to have the same rights as those in Daufur. Shelter? OK. Water and food once in a while. OK.
TV? Why? Contact with anything beyond the walls of redemption should be earned. Contact with others? Why? They can't have it, so why should casual killers have it?
All sounds a bit harsh? Well, I guess I'm old enough to remember when a killing was a front-page event. Nowadays, it would be hard to find a killing on page 4 or 5 of a national unless there were something "special" about it.
Getting in touch with the people seems to be the government's mantra.
Get off our backs is the response of very many people.
Do something, to demonstrate your achievements. Come into government knowing that you are fairly equal to someone who fought for a job.
Don't sliver up the greasy pole and tell us how wonderful you really are. Tell us about the experience you can bring to bear.
Sorry to say that this should apply to every party.
Take a look around the Lab/Tory/Lib mob.
Not too many people who have actually earned a crust in the wealth generating economy.
Brown? Older. Miliband? Younger. Experience in making money from people who choose to pay for a service or product? Pretty minimal.
Not so wonderful for Young Dave's lot.
At least they can brag that nobody ever created such a mess as this lot has done.
(Being reasonable, we could omit the Atlee and Callaghan regimes. The first had no idea how to manage business post nationalisation. The other had not a clue how to manage trading relationships with the world.)
Brown (with the blessing of Blair and most of the current cabinet members) has managed to create an enormous balance of trade deficit, huge public borrowing, off-balance sheet commitments for our kids and grand-children, rediculously complicated tax and credit regimes and still expects us to believe we are in "safe hands".
Come on Charles E. Tell us what bit of this garbage did Gordon build his reputation on?
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207. threnodio
Well its certainly 1.
Im sure MPs never though Anti Terror legislation would be used by local councils to watch what time people put out their dust bins.
Its partly 2.
Depending on your view point as to the threat and the benefits from extra security v loss of civil liberties.
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The knives are no longer just being sharpened, now they are being strategically placed (with plausible deniability).
It's going to get bloody as the rats fight to try and get hold of the sinking ship.
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#207 threnodio, or carrots or anyone
Can you give me the name of the Act?
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What is the point of replacing GB with Milliband? He admires Thatcher as a radical and finds many things that Cameron says difficult to disagree with.
Pointless. The politics and the policies will screw this country be it Labour of Tory. Labour's only hope is Alan Johnson.
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Is Jimbrant on holiday?
mmmmmmmm
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I gotta say, if the Tories think giving people space to grow and engaging with them is "gutless" or that other word from the party manual, "dithering", they've got to be pretty arrogant or out of touch.
On the issue of building industry they're nowhere to be found, and their only solution for jobs is to pay people to nanny the unemployed. How anti-business and anti-society can you get?
Dude, you are so busted. No amount of Osbourne style pinched sincerity or Cameron smooching can hide the fact that Tory policies don't stack up. They haven't reformed enough to be competent for government. Sorry, but it's true.
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When a party starts to believe its own spin and its own fudged statistics it's only natural that it falls out of touch with those it's supposed to represent. This is the reason they don't understand why the SS Labour's sinking and why they're always going on about 'listening.' Whether a dignified surrender from Brown or a bloody coup headed by that slimy toad Miliband it's going to end the same way because they have no understanding of what's gone wrong--- they even refuse to accept anything has gone wrong, e.g. Harman's insistence that Labour's woes are economic in nature rather than political. Delusion heaped on spin heaped on lies, and soon it's going to come tumbling down...
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Having actually read the article and watched the press conference, the only conclusion I can draw is...
It's the Silly Season.
Nick Robinson and Michael Crick should be ashamed of themselves. This is not journalism, it is desperate story invention. If it is journalism, it's the Titbits and Heat variety, not what we pay for from BBC News. If they have nothing better to do than pump out this twaddle they should go on holiday.
Crick's coverage of the Glasgow East by election was hysterical. His conduct on Newsnight tonight made him look a complete fool (unless you are suffering from the heat in the same way as most journalists).
Why are journalists so self important? Daft question I suppose. Get a proper job, boys.
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re: 214
Lol yep. Southwold!
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I think we need to look a little deeper: 'We have a great leader' is not 'we have the BEST leader'. The Guardian article was well written and thought out, and I congratulate David Miliband on this, a prudent move which has created needed debate and conversation.
I think there is a need for a new Labour leader, GB just isn't electable- the party needs to accept this, change and move forward.
Miliband is a candidate, but so is Harriet Harmann, perhaps Jacqui Smith- for all her faults I find her pretty straight talking.
Not everyone will agree with me, but it's not a debate otherwise!
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FOM: I'm not going to get into a willy waving contest or drag in the kitchen sink. I've written more than enough today and, mostly, my general thoughts on the topic have been hammered home enough.
Sometimes, you just have to let this stuff sink in. People can need a little time or have their own ideas about things. It's getting late, I'm tired, and the world will look different tomorrow.
Someone go tuck Miliband in before lights out....
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#212 - oldnat
Intelligence Services Act 1994
Terrorism Act, 2000
Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000
Terrorism Act 2006
The 2006 Act us here:
www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2006/ukpga_20060011_en_1
(It does't mention dog-pooh or colour coded dustbins anywhere)
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Oldnat
Not an act but a UK US treaty
http://www.fco.gov.uk/resources/en/pdf/pdf8/fco_pdf_usextraditiontreaty
And further comment from the US, but interesting
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/8/24/8230/65278
And all with a friend that refused point blank to extradite one IRA terrorist back to the UK.
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As far as I can tell he is saying two distinct things.
1. keep telling the same lies to the public over and over again and they are bound to fall for us again, like the suckers they are.... I mean it worked for the last three elections....
and
2. GIMME THE TOP JOB!!!
His ego knows no bounds.
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raindancer68 @205 wrote:
True, Israel is a democracy, but I don't see much multiculturalism on show there, like good old Blighty. Can you imagine if an Englishman or Scotsman stood for PM there? There would be an outcry. As for Israel's treatment of Arabs, well, the Jewish state's record isn't good on that, now is it?
20 percent of Israel's population are Israeli Arabs who have a damn sight more personal freedom than in almost any Arab country one could name. There are also numerous Arab member of parliament in Israel's 120-member Knesset.
Israel ain't perfect, but I guess it's a bit difficult to be a 'beacon to the nations' when your neighbours have been trying to exterminate you for over 60 years.
Finally, I'm intrigued by your comment "...including my race, the English."
Since when have the English been a race?I always thought it was a nationality.
So who's included in the English 'race'? Winston Churchill? (his mother was American), Our Queen? (Her stock is German) Prince Charles? (His father is Greek), Boris Johnson (His great grandfather is Turkish), Disraeli (Don't ask!).
I really want to know.
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Charles_E_Hardwidge @215
Tut, tut, Chuck. Such aggressive language... You are starting to lose your cool.
I'm not sure which is more fun: to wind you up further by pointing out how slimy and pathetic Gordon Brown and New Labour are and how even more pathetic their supporters and apologists are, or to advise you to calm down and take one of those Tao pills you keep talking about every now and zen.
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217 Tenbensons
I totally disagree with you. Milliband has made it clear that he is up for the top job today and has strayed from the normal loyal party line.
This is big news. The fight to depose Gordon has started.
Milliband can't use overt language, or been seen to be orchestrating coups, it is not good for political longevity (Gordons finger prints have been found on the knives in Tony's back - hence Gordon has only lasted a year).
Things will go quiet for the summer, then the bloody fight for control of Labour will start in August / September.
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219 Adam BCFC
I partly agree with you - this move does create debate, however.....
Jacqui Smith, Harman or Miliband......... personally I don't think any of them are up to the job of winning an election.
At best one of them might be able to stave off total obliteration of the Labour party that Gordon is likely to achieve if he isn't stopped.
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218. power_to_the_ppl
They must have internet up there.
Youd think hed keep us amused.
I hope he takes his jacket off when hes on the beach.
Hehe.
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Oh, beg pardon oldnat, you mean extradition.
It is the Extradition Act 2003 (It is an act Carrots).
Or should that be Extra(ordinary Ren)dition?
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threnodio and carrots
Thanks guys. Knew I shouldn't have left the country - even for a while. The things these people get up to while I'm gone!
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Did anyone else notice the marked similarity between Miliband's speaking style and Blair's? They even drop their 't's in the same way. Some coaching, I feel.
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Brownedov, Threnodio and others with a sense of humour will enjoy the thread on Paul Mason's blog.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Poster 213 suggests Alan Johnson.
Bring him on, then we can finally get Paxman to interrogate him on his union ties.
Charles at 103 and others once more says Labour is great etc
When will people wake up? People do not care who is the leader of the Labour Party or PM. All they can see is high taxes, job insecurity, two wars which on the face of it are achieving nothing, high energy prices and mounting food prices. Pensions have also been destroyed, partly through taxation.
It is the problem for any Government that has been in power for a long time: people get fed up if there is no real tangible benefits.
Devolution has fallen flat on it's face for Labour. It is obvious that it was for purely political reasons to ensure continued Labour votes outside England. But the SNP have floored Labour, partly through having an effective leader. The SNP have failed to deliver much that was promised, but no one sees this thanks to the dithering and ineffective Labour MSPs.
Unless something miraculous happens before the next election, Labour are doomed, possibly for far longer than the Convervatives ever were. The Lib Dems are not achieving much, as people see that they are not going to gain power.
I cannot see anyone in the current Labour Government capable of sorting out their mess, and to be honest, who wants the job?
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#222 Carrots etc
I've just read through this extraordinary treaty, in which "rendition" is sanctioned and all rights given away.
I don't need to comment (but will!) that it was signed by David Blunkett. His guide dog would have been more perceptive.
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Why all the rubbish about a new leader for The Labour Party... i doubt they will be in power soon anyway. But before you go voting for the Tories i doubt they will change anything for the good. Maybe you should all vote for the Lib-Dems and they're glorious leader erm ... what his name . Go on give em a chance how bad could it be. They should all be out doing what our glorious leader is doing up here in haggisneapntattieland ..... out meeting the people !! ochayethenoo . :o)}
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When the Conservatives win the next election in 2010, it certainly cannot be any later, it will take a year or two to sort out the mess that these Labour losers will have left the country in.One thing a lot of people forget, Blair et all inherited a stable economy when Labour won the election in 1997 and things have gone downhill rapidly since. We now have amongst the HIGHEST taxes in Europe, no wonder 300-400,000 people are leaving the UK every year.
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Anyone who wants to check current statute law in the UK may find the following link useful:
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/
- but you may want to check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Statute_Law_Database
- under 'Current limitations' first.
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#222 Carrots and #229 threnedio
Extradition
Carrots had it right
Treaty signed by Blunkett (the blind leading .. etc), then immediately implemented via Statutory Instrument 2003 No. 3334, which put it into effect with no debate or vote. The only vote affecting Extradition was taken by MPs was a Committee vote by 12 MPs on necessary amendments to the Draft Extradition Act (Designation of Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 Territories) and Draft Extradition Act 2003 (Police Power: Code of Practice) Order 2003.
Ming Campbell attended as a guest of the committee and spoke out strongly against the one-sided nature of this. In the vote, only 2 Lib Dems were against. All New Labour and their lick-spittle allies the Tories voted for.
Liberals can have some pride but the rest of you Incorporating Unionists (comments self-censored by the poster)
should be writhing in embarrassment.
Do you wonder that many of us want to get out from your pathetic excuse for a democracy?
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#235 - oldnat
Reciprocty was, I believe, finally put inplace in 2006 when the Senate passed the bill.
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I take no responsibility for the nuttier postings from my countrymen (#236) on this thread.
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jeepers oldnat ...for an old guy you dont half stay up late !
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"I doubt Miliband will get to be leader.
He dithered the last time about running for the leadership, in the end bottling it (just like GB did over the election)."
Miliband would have been insane to the extreme to stand against Brown. It would have killed his government career, and ultimately his chances at securing the party leadership and possibly premiership - stone dead. Not just politically suicidal, but pointless to boot.
It's hardly comparable to a leader throwing away probably his best chance at securing an election victory and 5-year mandate, as Brown did with the election that never was.
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I can think of at least 2-3 articles this week that deliberately ran a flag up the flagpole and quoted unseen or otherwise irrelevant people to squeeze a story. Thinking of one BBC item in particular, a line where some journo was standing on their toes and squealing like a tiny tot leaped right out of the page.
Now, Labour could rightly suggest people are just being irrational or the media are running a witch hunt, but that takes the eye off their own ball and just pours petrol on the fire. By taking the Miliband stance Labour are reforming themselves to gear up to the challenge set by the electorate and neutering the headline chasing media.
Life is about ability and opportunity and, how we see things can make a difference. What looks like a bad thing can turn out to be a good thing, and so on. Mostly, Labour just need to embrace some Zen calm. Thus, opportunity will present itself. It was probably there all along but a quieter mind can embrace it more readily.
Anyhow, I figure, the ultra-competitive, ultra-greedy, now-now-now society is killing itself with or without any particular governments help, and more simplicity, cohesion, and patience would be generally useful. As I've commented, opportunity will arise in its own time, and a better approach makes how things are in the present more enjoyable.
A wise man once said the Kingdom of God was at hand. Life can be a bit like that, as we get caught up in ourselves or the moment we can trample the daises. Anger and tears just obscure the present. By looking inside and seeing the potential, maybe, we can realise some of it. And that's the real everyday miracle we all need.
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oldnat
'The Extradition Act 2003 is an Act of Parliament of the United Kingdom. It came into force on 1 January 2004 and all import and export extradition requests submitted or received from this date are covered by the Act. It concerns itself with extradition to and from the UK in respect of all territories and in particular implements into UK law the US-UK Extradition Treaty 2003. (Wikipedia).
It does not go into much detail but I assume it enshrined Blunkett's junket into Statute Law retrospectively.
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The treaty its self is outrageous, but the really really really really outrageous fact is that it applies retroactively. You can actually be extradited for doing something which is now illegal but was not at the time you did it.
Thats really really really worthy of repetition just so it sticks:
You can actually be extradited for something which is now illegal but was not at the time you did it.
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Labour have the old problem of not being united.
Blair versus Brown.
Brown versus Millipede/Mr Bean (the original-Brown is just Mark 2).
Labour versus the unions.
No-one knows where they stand or what they they stand for.
The negatives of Labour have been discussed infinitum on tis board. And the public perception is of a party in disarray and not running the Country as we would wish. Nothing is going to change that perception.
Food is still going up in price, as is motoring and heating. And the government (I suppose I should use a capital G but in this case its not deserved) is doing nothing when it could do lots, such as remove VAT on heating bills (i know, I know, the Conservatives introduced it) and reduce the VAT on the tax on petrol/diesel. Now that would be a government thet LISTENED and ACTED.
And while Zen may be useful for some on an individual basis, I don't think it will help with the national view of Brown and Labour.
So roll on 2010, or earlier if Brown rresigned, since the people would not stand for another unelected leader.
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#151 - Brownedov
Any resemblence between New Labour and Socialism is, I assure your, entire coincidental and totally superficial.
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Oldnat
And yes the Senate has now ratified the treaty so it isnt so lop sided, just grossly unjust.
Lets all hope the US doesnt outlaw anti government blogging in the next upgrade of the Patriot act and apply it retroactively. Cos if they do were all off to the pen.
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@247
Mikepo
Your last paragraph "Rolll on 2010 or earlier if Brown Resigned, since the people would not stand for another unelected leader.
The Problem with this is that there is nothing that the people can do even if he does resign. The only person in the country that can call an election is the PM, unless there is a vote of no confidence in the goverment. With 350 Labour MP's there is no way this would ever pass.
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The Guardian is trying to wring out more leadership speculation and trampling over the daises in spite of David Miliband downplaying a leadership bid and strongly supporting the Prime Minister. His message was absolutely spot on and it's a sign of strength that Gordon Brown can allow his own ministers off the leash. In reality, this is the beginning of greater party maturity and a new narrative.
Martin Kettle tries to turn up the heat by painting Miliband's speech as a ploy for leadership, Brown on holiday is at his weakest, and the decision to bend to Brown or get Brown to bend to Labour is a life or death question. That's what I was thinking yesterday but I didn't say it as the usual suspects would immediately jump on killing the king.
My suspicion is that if Labour give in to the media they're going to look incredibly stupid, and if Labour face this down the media is going to look incredibly stupid. Policy and delivery has been hijacked by the media and turned into a competitive and personality game. While Labour are rising above this the media can't get over its ego.
It's fantastically odd but Peter Mandelson is setting a very statesmanlike lead for Labour. If Labour can capture some of that essence and become more statesmanlike as individual MP's, I think, that sets a good lead for parliament, the media, and the country. People are demanding a new and better politics, and by driving this down to lower levels Labour will become the change it wishes for and is demanded of it. That would be quite a coup.
I can almost feel the sweaty and twitchy fingers of the opposition and media reaching for the squeaky clean and unopened Zen books on their shelves. Machiavelli and his posturings are so yesterday. How to be so humble, gracious, and insanely cool is so very now. Well, okay. Maybe not but I bet there's a few wondering about it.
Man, I talk too much.
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Dunno. Sounds alright. Food, water, and a concrete cell. Zen Buddhists pay MONEY to stay in a place like that.
Opportunity in disaster, etcetera.
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Harriet Harrman plans leadership bid ... http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/labour-mps-to-rally-behind-unbearable%2c-screeching-hag--200807301136/
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Hardwidge:
"The Guardian is trying to wring out more leadership speculation and trampling over the daises in spite of David Miliband downplaying a leadership bid and strongly supporting the Prime Minister. His message was absolutely spot on and it's a sign of strength that Gordon Brown can allow his own ministers off the leash."
(1) Miliband strongly supports the PM? My bottom he does, it's blatantly the beginnings of a leadership bid
(2) His message announces nothing specific other than nuclear power. What does this mean:
"When debating public service reform, tax policies or constitutional changes, we apply those values to the latest challenges."
Empty management speak, something that you know a lot about! But THIS is the worrying part:
"So is the challenge to society — to build a genuine sense of belonging and responsibility on the back of greater protection from outside risks and greater control of local issues."
'Greater protection from outside risks' means 'we'll curtail more of your liberties'
'Greater control of local issues' means 'we'll spy on you under terror legislation and then fine you if your bin's too full or if you leave dog poo on the pavement'
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re: 253
Unbearable screeching hag is spot on!
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Re #234 Neil_Small147
I agree with virtually all of your post except for half of one sentence which I don't follow:
"The SNP have failed to deliver much that was promised, but no one sees this thanks to the dithering and ineffective Labour MSPs."
The 2nd half is clearly true, but how much more would you expect a minority government to deliver in its first year?
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Clever move DM. No direct challenge just an early stake in the sand. Didn't the PM say he postponed the election to gain time to prepare a vision? Obviously DM has been busy.
Well positioned for the autumn of 2010 I think.
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#251. Interesting comment Charles but I think your analysis misses one important point: 100+ Labour MPs believe they will lose their MP-ship at the next election. That kind of feeling would appear to focus the mind incredibly. Statesmanship doesn't come into it.
Miliband's piece in the Guardian was an interesting piece of introspection, with the odd smattering of dodgy (naturally favourable) statistics ("risen", "fallen" etc) and a little bit of self-flagellation ("should have paid more attention to the NHS"). He was reaching out to an electorate, as you said earlier, but this is the narrow electorate of Labour MPs whose favour he wishes to curry. It was a short piece to show he has the so called "vision" thing; unconventionally, venturing out of foreign affiars into a criticism of his current and former Health minister colleagues.
Well, maybe he has the vision-thing, but Gordon has every good reason to feel put out by the article (if indeed he does). Miliband has put a stake in the ground. And it doesn't look nice.
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#249 - CarrotsneedaQUANGO2
If you visit Jason Webb's blog, you will find the state pens will be too full of Americans to have room for us.
I left all my law books behind when I left the UK so I only have the web and memory to remind me but, looking into the history, it alarms me greatly that, while we have recently taken to shouting about it, the slow creep actually began a long time back. The Terrorism Act, 2000 and the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 actually pre-date 9/11 so this has much more to do with the government's desire to control everyday life and a lot less to do with a response to terrorism than you might imagine.
I set out my stall some time back (on another thread) about what I think should happen but in summary:
1. The 42 day detention proposal scrapped.
2. The current 21 days to be revisited and a requirement put in place requiring the authorities to obtain a magistrates' warrant in order to detain suspects for more than 72 hours (which can be applied for in camera when there are national security consideration).
3. The repeal of The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act and the substitution of a new act restricting surveillance to the Security Services and the Police and requiring that they obtain a magistrates' warrant before implementation.
4. A new act under which the use of intrusive surveillance techniques for any purpose other than the investigation of terrorist or serious criminal offenses to be made illegal. This would include sting operations of the type used by tabloid newspapers to entrap people when they have nothing better to write about.
5. An amendment to the Extradition Act which would extend the definition of an 'unfair trial' to include the possibility of disproportionate or draconian sentencing. (If judges believe that someone might be sentenced to a long prison term for something which would be more leniently viewed in the UK, they could refuse an extradition warrant).
6. A requirement that any defendent facing a criminal trial (as opposed to a misdemeanor) can demand a jury trial as of right.
7. An end to all mandatory sentencing returning this to where it belongs - with the judiciary.
8. A new law requiring that planning consent be obtained for any surveillance cameras in outside locations. (People could then decide for themselves on a case by case basis whether or not they are needed).
9. The automatic repatriation of all non EU criminal offenders immediately on completion of custodial sentences for criminal offenses (as opposed to misdemeanors or contempt).
10. The repeal of all laws, statutory instruments and other legal mechanisms which facilitate the admission of testimony obtained or likely to have been obtained under torture.
I'll let you know if I think of anything else . . .
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Now that the battle for leader of the Labour party is underway – I propose that would be contenders undergo a suitably ‘left-wing-trial-by-ordeal’. As follows:
All candidates will have the summer to formulate and demonstrate a new policy.
Your policy should focus on a social or economic statistic which is already demonstrating signs of long term improvement, i.e.
The New Deal was made to look like it was improving employment figures when the growing economy was already rapidly lowering the number of unemployed.
Extra marks will be given for the following:
A. QUANGOS SECTION
1. Number of Quangos created.
2. % Overlap between the objectives of existing Quangos.
3. The number of officially authorised words in Quangos i.e. ‘Outreach’ or ‘Partnership’
4. The number of jobs created for ‘Inclusiveness Officers’ (Or other authorised officer roles) measured in 1’000s of ‘Officers’
5. Expenditure and growth forecasts (units of measurement millions per annum)
6. Each Quango will need a Chief Executive and Chairman. Please state the bribe required (MBE, OBE, Peerage etc) and the amount they will loan to the Labour party (Units of measurement thousands of pounds)
7. That no actual physical point of delivery is required and the entire policy can be administered to demonstrate success of the Quango alone, measured against the statistic that you have chosen which is already showing long term improvement.
B. PFI SECTION
If your policy does require physical delivery and can’t under any circumstance be achieved through the appearance of improvement through spending on Quango’s, then you will need to demonstrate the following:
1. Investment required (units of measurement billions per annum)
2. When the delivery inevitably fails, you will need to show which private sector companies will be blamed for the mess.
3. Extra credit will be given for expenditure required over and above the going market rate for the services provided by the contractor. (Units of measurement billions per annum)
4. Budget forecast. Extra credit given if you can demonstrate that the budget will need to increase each year (measured in billions of pounds per annum)
5. The size of repayment required by future generations of taxpayers (measured in billions per annum)
C. LEFT WING SECTION
1. Political Correctness. Extra credit will be given if you can demonstrate that your policies positively discriminate against white males between 18 and 65.
2. Able to demonstrate that your policy forces controls over an area of peoples lives which they would normally manage themselves without government intervention
3. Extra credit will be given if civil liberties are reduced in favour of increased central government control
4. The amount of money you will generate through new stealth taxes (measured in millions per annum)
5. Extra credit if your policy is able to re-distribute government spending to Labour heartlands
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Miliband says this:
'Falling school standards? No, they are rising.'
What he means is: 'We are gathering reams and reams of statistics that don't mean anything but we'll tell you standards are rising because we have so many statistics'.
He speaks with the devil's tongue.
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Re #248 threnodio
I fully agree. It's our brother grandantidote's reasons for sticking to them like a limpet that I was hoping to understand. My #151 did at least provoke Deathwish's denial at #157.
He's also changing tack it would seem with his #220 in apparent agreement with my #152, at least in respect of Milliband Major.
Shifting sands at Southwold or maybe just shifty?
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For the leadership/quango competition can I suggest a quango to regulate the regulatory bodies that regulate the regulatory bodies that regulate the quangos? Since there are so many quangos, 1162 at last count, soon to be 1163, I will need to employ half a million disabled black lesbians (no straight white males) and I require a 200 billion/year budget. The returns will be a hell of a lot more regulation and restrictions on everyone
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168 - Sceptic Max
Apologies - I can see you didn't.
The blog is moving too fast I cannot keep up.
I'm moving on from here as this one has got to difficult to read in my small window at work!
Didn't someone once suggest the BBC do threaded blogs?
Maybe this is part of the 'disinformation' they provide on behalf of the state ;-0
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Re #232 oldnat
Thanks for the info. How very Orwellian of auntie.
Re #253 WhiteSeas
Not in the best of taste but "a jolly good read".
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Some guy commenting on Steve Richards more mellow piece in The Independent is a "senior human resource professional in industry". Are you going to criticise him while his opinion is unfavourable to Labour, or are you just trying it on?
I tend to profile everyone I have an interaction with but I don't put them in a box. Any sensible human resources professional would do the same. Likewise, any sensible jouno would look at this story in a more rounded way.
Life is full of surprises. Sometimes, you have events challenge you and make you better. Other times, you find yourself unexpectedly thrust into the limelight and handle it with effortlessness. This is why developing mastery is important.
D T Suzuki comments on the sword that gives life versus the sword that gives death. His hamfisted and often misinterpreted comment speaks of the expert, or mere technician, and the master: one must be open and flexible.
The Tao mirrors this by saying that the sage is without principle or allegiance. This suggests that clinging to tightly to a view or party is doomed to failure. Again, one must be open and flexible to reality.
Miyamoto Musashi, the revered sword saint of Japan, states that the strategist must have a firm but light grip. Again, he raises the issue that being too rigid or floppy in a situation impedes correctness.
Leadership isn't just about aiming for goals but, also, forming ourselves to goals. Winston Churchill knew this: "First we build our house then our house builds us". I have no comment to make on the political issues with this but leave that as an exercise for the reader.
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Re #259 threnodio
That would certainly be a good start.
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Like his look-alike Tim Henman, Milliband will never be more than a semi-finalist, but at least Henman had the guts to fight in public.
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re: 266
Yawn
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Quite true, but I'd suggest they're getting caught up in themselves or the situation if they cling too tightly to that. It really, really doesn't matter if the win or lose their seat. In fact, the more they panic, sweat, and cling to the thing the more it will slide from their grasp. And "so what" if they do lose it. If they have any sense or merit they'll roll with it. Heck, it could be the best thing that ever happened to them.
It's a tough case to make but, generally, I believe this current storm is one of those things. Labour have needed to get over their gesture politics andsquabbling for a long time. By getting over themselves they'll immediately put themselves ahead of the greedy Tories and scattered Liberals who will be left still clinging to the policies and issues of yesterday.
I feel that Labour is best placed to make the changes necessary for Britain to move forward with, say, the consitution, industry, social policy, and so on. As the ego storm clears this will become more obvious, the polls will more closely reflect the underlying reality, and Labour will have a comfortable win at the next election. I won't bandy numbers around but I don't think they need to worry.
At least, that's how I see it.
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Re #250 Pot_Kettle
"The only person in the country that can call an election is the PM, unless there is a vote of no confidence in the goverment."
Not quite true, I think. QEI/II could dissolve Parliament. Granted in normal times it would be personal suicide, but it's about the only safeguard there is to prevent "Duff" Gordon or any other failing PM from sitting indefinitely.
Not quite there yet, but the accursed "interesting times" are nigh.
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Re #270 Charles_E_Hardwidge
"It really, really doesn't matter if the win or lose their seat."
Tell that to the queue at John Lewis and their partners.
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250 Pot
According to the constituation I agree, but I believe that if Brown resigns and someone else takes over the media will stir up such anger that protests will occure. And I will be one of the protesters.
251 CEH
Mandleson statesmanlike? All he is interested in is lining his pockets iin Europe and his little Brazilian chum. I
ts easy to be staesmanlike when you are not actually involved in government. Even you could do it!!!
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mikepko
Re: 273
Where do I sign up?
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Sure. Your sudden shortage of words and stuttering on the keyboard suggest you know it's true as well. I'm mostly focused on quality, teamwork, and the long view so don't have the petty point scoring and partisan attitude that is common in here.
When Labour snap out of their current stupidity and get a clue, I pretty much expect a lot of the more shrill voices around here to go dark. Things change and there will be less easy fun to be had when the polls reflect that. Don't say I didn't warn you.
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Go away Charles.
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#272 Brownedov
For once CEH is right. Who cares if it's a Tory or Labour MP in the queue at Lewis's.
They're all treacherous (comments self censored by the poster) scum, with their corrupt Parliament, and unwritten British Constitution, and Royal Prerogatives.
You'll gather I'm still seething about my research last night on the Extradition Treaty. How any of the many Tory posters on this blog like ptttp in #254 can criticise Labour for double-speak over civil liberties is beyond me. They are just mirror images of each other.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
re: 277
It's not that the Tories don't lie and spin because they do, yes--- BUT Nu-Labour are the worst offenders by far!
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@ 259...
Where can I join up to support your party?
I would suggest that list be a minimum requirement. Scrapping ID cards and introducing a law that outlaws sub-dermal implants and prevents ANY future government from imposing sub-dermal implants on any individual, or group without consent of that individual or group.
We need to shift the judicial balance back in favour of the law-abiding majority, where we should be innocent until proven guilty again.
This Government has made many subtle, and some not too subtle, changes to our laws that are covertly manoeuvring us towards a continental system where we will have to prove our innocence.
THIS MUST STOP!
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re: 278
You're right purpleDogzzz, I'll never mention or respond to him again either.
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We should not be too complacent. Everything in the garden is not lovely and the millipede may turn out to be another creature that crawls on its belly - a milliviper?
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275 CEH
"When Labour snap out of their current stupidity and get a clue"
When do you expect this exciting event to take place?
Regarding my previous contribution, apologies for the lack of English grammar and spelling. I'm in the middle of having a woodburner installed, and all because GB can't or won't control fuel prices.
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#279 pttp
So you decide to vote for one lot of grubby people because they are marginally less mired than the other lot?
Supporting neither of them might be an idea!
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The codification of the Common Law in around 890 AD and subsequently amended by Magna Carta in 1215 creates a contract between the Monarch and the People (not Parliament, not the government). These laws continue in effect and were not diluted by the Reform Act of 1689 or any subsequent constitutional provisions.
Citizens have always had and continue to have the right to petition the Monarch. The Sovereign has the constitutional power to call His or Her Parliament or to dissolve and call a General Election, then to appoint a Prime Minister who is charged to form a Government to advise the Crown on policy. The ‘Crown in Parliament’ is said to be ‘Sovereign’.
In the event of a crisis of government, it is possible for the people directly to petition the Crown to dissolve parliament and call an election. Now of course we have to be realistic. A handful of signatures on a couple of sheets of A.4 is not going to achieve anything but a significant move by a large proportion of the population could spark a process which would become irresistible.
Churchill has written of Magna Carter “In subsequent ages when the state swollen with its own authority has attempted to ride roughshod over the rights and liberties of the people it is to this doctrine that appeal has again and again been made and never as yet without success”.
It is all very improbable, I grant you but government is not totally fireproof and I can't see even GB and his cronies trying to tear up the Great Charter.
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re: 284
If I could vote for an independent without increasing the chance of Labour remaining in power I would! I know, if everyone does it then Labour won't be in power, but that unfortunately isn't the case!
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re: 282
Exactamundo.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7534729.stm
Old Labour, 'bold' Labour, covered in mould Labour
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275. At 11:04am on 31 Jul 2008, Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
"Mandleson statesmanlike?
Sure. Your sudden shortage of words and stuttering on the keyboard suggest you know it's true as well. I'm mostly focused on quality, teamwork, and the long view so don't have the petty point scoring and partisan attitude that is common in here."
What a load of tripe. You are one of the most partisan people here but you think you can cover it up with this passive-agressive twaddle.
Also, the fact that you are unable to say anything without a sprinkle of childish philosophical truisms suggests that you are the one most desperate to gloss over his failing argument.
"When Labour snap out of their current stupidity and get a clue, I pretty much expect a lot of the more shrill voices around here to go dark. Things change and there will be less easy fun to be had when the polls reflect that. Don't say I didn't warn you."
Meanwhile, in the real world, every time somebody talks about the future of the Labour party the population of the country looks around and asks, "Ten years of your rule has led us here, why would we sign up for another five years of the same?"
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Nick,
The article by Milliband, and your blog has clearly achieved what Milliband set out to do, which is to set himself up as a challenger without being too disloyal (this can be left to others associated with his agenda). Quite how the extensive comments by Charles relates to this blog, only he knows, but does it do anyone any favours to reply directly to him?
In the meantime, Brown can do nothing to stop all of the backbiting and negatiivity because his government is seen to be ineffective in the face of the economic and political woes he is faced with. At some point, even Brown may come to realise how futile his posturing and 'noise' happens to be, and in turn he could leave of his own accord. I am not however holding my breath.
All the best.
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Miliband's devious flag leadership hoisting "manifesto" is basically the same disastrous policies that labour have already been badly implementing for the last eleven years.
It is NOT change at all, but more like keep telling the same lies over and over again, but let's keep doing it like Blair did it instead of How Brown is doing it.
There is NOTHING in their about redressing the balance between liberty and security more in favour of liberty. Nothing about scrapping ID cards, or getting the government out of our pockets, and off our backs! Nothing about the government protecting instead of invading and abusing our privacy....
Speaking of which, Nick, have you apologised yet for being so wrong about David Davis' by-elections effect on the Tory parties fortunes? Hmmmmmmmmmmm?
I mean I know that it was all a huge fraud, and that the by-election was NOTHING to do with civil liberties at all, but ENTIRELY to do with controlling and limiting the debate about liberties to a very narrow area that the tories can benefit from.
That is why an open public debate about the "big brother state and the reduction of freedom" during that by-election campaign suddenly, quite by magic, became a closed private debate that even the production of a valid ticket could not gain you entrance, especially if you were the only candidate in the race that had been actively investigating the growth of the big brother state, full time, for 20 years! Talk about irony. "You are not free to attend this debate on freedom, go away!"
And the fact that David Davis was supported materially in this election campaign by people with financial interests in companies that manufacture and sell the "big brother" surveillance technology? Even his David Davis for Freedom website is hosted on machines owned by these "big brother" companies!!!
Does this not seem a little odd?
However, this so-called "debate" did not do the tories any harm in the polls, did it Nick?
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Is David Miliband a Marxist?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Eatonrifle...
Re your posts 178 and 192
VAT of 17.5% on domestic fuel?
When exactly was that - I could swear that when it was introduced it was only 8%.
Is it my memory - or are you applying some 1st class spin?
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Ref all the conversations about who can call an election.
Waiting all the way until September / October for Labour MP's to find a way of telling Gordon it is time to go is going to be excurtiatingly slow and tiresome to wait for.
The public should sieze the initiative and get involved in some 'summer protest marches' - big enough that they can't be ignored.
Does anybody know what it takes to organise something the scale of - say - the Countryside Alliance marches?
What considerations need to be given to things like 'consent for a protest march' and policing etc?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#285 threnodio
That is, of course, English Law.
In Scots Constitutional Law, the people are sovereign (Declaration of Arbroath 1320), and we are not subjects of Elizabeth, Queen of Scots, but citizens of the realm of Scotland.
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I've just read the news item that's come up where Ivan Lewis supports "Bold Labour not old Labour". This is getting closer to the essence of the sort of Labour and Britain I'd like to see develop.
Confidence isn't about passive anger or a bullying attitude, or getting too caught up in the razzle dazzle or falling back on buggy whips just because they worked in the past. It's something better than that.
Evan Davies clearly wishes the approval of the Prime Minister but I'm sure he didn't need to ask for it. I'm sure the Prime Minister hopes everyone can discover their "inner hero" and have faith in themselves.
The rest of the article was good as well.
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Re #277 oldnat
I agree with 99.99% of your post, but my #277 was intended to clarify that an outbreak of mass selflessness among our knights of the shires is, to put it midly, unlikely.
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#280 - purpleDogzzz
Good question. We need to start one.
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Re #278 purpleDogzzz
Mea culpa. Who?
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296
It was rather naughty. Sorry, but hoped to get past the Marxists!
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Mother Teresa was often asked to take part in protest marches. She always declined but said that she would join a march in favour of something.
I'm on record on this blog as stating that I was in favour of marching against the Iraq War but, also, in favour of marching in support of the surge.
People often set themselves up in opposition to what they don't like but this tends to lead to misery. I think, being clearer about positive wants is more helpful.
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@ 284... Quote: "#279 pttp
So you decide to vote for one lot of grubby people because they are marginally less mired than the other lot?
Supporting neither of them might be an idea!"
Please allow me the indulgence to respond to this pttp, at least as far as my opinion in this is concerned.
Labour are a cancer at the heart of our flawed democracy. They should be utterly and completely destroyed politically, never to return to manipulate, lie to, subjugate feast on and rip-off the poor or the working class ever again.
Believe me, I would like to see the back of the Tories too, but that is NOT going to happen any-time soon, so long as people are still taking notice of the BBC and the rest of the "new world order" supporting "mainstream media".
That being the case, I would think that, from here at least, with labour deeply hated by a thin majority of the population, that the time has come to use the tory populism to utterly destroy labour once and for all. Additionally, the tories have made it very clear over and over again that they are more sympathetic to civil liberties and individual freedoms than labour are. They will scrap the ID card scheme and act more like a government than a gestapo, at least for one term.
Yes, they are the tories and they still have their strings pulled by the same globalist masters in the international banking families that pull labour's strings, but in the tories we have the opportunity to kill off labour to such an extent that ANY similar destruction to the tory party later could not resuscitate labour.
That is the point. Labour have to be SO discredited and loathed in the public mind, that they will never ever be considered electable again. Then we must move fast.
One days amazing partying around the rotting corpse of the cancerous malignancy that is labour and we set to work to discredit the Tories in the same way. As well as this we set to work showing clearly that there is NO SUCH THING as a mainstream party anymore. That is another media invented lie. There used to be mainstream parties, but their support has fallen so far that no party in the UK has, in reality, more than 20% active support in the country as a whole. The opinion polls published in the "mainstream media" ALWAYS exclude the non-voters. Thus alienating them and making them (and the rest of the UK's "popular opinion") believe that these non-voters are inconsequential. Well, so long as they do not vote, they remain inconsequential. HOWEVER, their numbers are so great, and the "mainstream parties" support is so low and dwindling, that it will not be too long before there are enough annoyed, disillusioned citizens that if persuaded to vote for a local independent candidate, that there would be enough numbers to rout ALL the mainstream political parties that are dedicated to enslaving us all under an EU dictatorship.
Non voters only believe that they are powerless minority because the mainstream media tells them the lie that they are powerless minority, when in reality they have the numbers to evict almost all the current sitting MP's. Labour won a 66 seat majority with the support of ONLY 22% of the public. 40% of the public did not vote!!
What has happened since then? Labour's support has slumped. I would be surprised if labour could count on 10% support now. the tories might have close to 20% but not more.
The non-voting Apathy party is now close to 60% and growing.
We need to have democracy in this land. We need to tap into the 60% and get them to vote for local independents or a non-EU supporting party. We need to get organised in each constituency to organise which candidate (outside of the former mainstream parties) these 60% will support.
It would be a marvellous, peaceful, democratic revolution.
And NO I do not support the BNP either.
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Re #284 oldnat
Unsavoury, certainly, but given the crazy plurality system operating for Westminster, it may be the leastworst option absent a candidate advocating electoral reform with a reasonable chance of winning.
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If anybody wants to see the route this once great country is going down then may I suggest that they just look at the press reports and comments relating to Hans Kristian Rausing and his wife Eva.
Some people would like to see rich people paying fines proportionate to their income, for example parking illegally because they can afford to pay the fines etc.
I consider that we now have situations where the reverse is now implemented. For example, somebody who has one milligram of a drug gets banged up for life because they have a low income. In the meantime if you have a ton of the stuff but you are worth billions then no problem. I think we can call it proportionality.
I will at this stage say nothing other than make your own minds up. Oh, apart from the fact that nobody seems to read Kant anymore.
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Apologists for NewLabour who claim that the oppostion are turning this leadership challenge into an ego bashing exercise are missing the point (or ignoring it for their own ends)
Gordon Brown himself turned politics into an ego trip every time he appeared on TV telling us that he was the right man for the job to lead us through difficult times. No sign of any policies, no sign of any colleagues, just Gordon Brown leading us through the difficult times.
You reap what you sow don't you?
NewLabour are imploding faster than an imploding thing. They've managemd to manoeuvre themselves into that lose/lose position. They lose if they keep Gordon and they lose if the sack him becasue there'll have to be an election and no-one wants another five years of the spying, meddling, taxing, wasteful, boastful, grandstanding ways of NewLabour.
Give us our country back. The country that backed the workers not the shirkers. The free country without a camera on every corner.
The NewLabour experiment fails at every turn from Balls and his SATs data to the ludicrous dependency culture and back to the ridiculous entitlement and rights of lazy, benefits claming shirkers.
Pity the poor residents of Southwold who have probably had a few park benches kicked over by a fuming prime minister. They deserve better.
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Charles, Charles . . .
No self respecting English marches in favour of anything. That's what the Coldstream Guards are paid for.
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303 Charles_E_Hardwidge
Is this semantics.. ?
I'm in favour of getting rid of Brown and in favour of getting rid of what at the moment seems to be a lame-duck government with no vision and ideas.
I'm in favour protesting to get rid of Brown and replace him with someone - anyone - who can take the country forwards.
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I would happily join any march in favour and positive support for the dissolution of parliament and a call for a general election and the referendum that we were promised.
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re: 304, purpleDogzzz
I agree with your post 100 percent.
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Perhaps Labour and the Conservatives could merge to become the Laboratory Party? Counld be an interesting experiment.
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Re #288 power_to_the_ppl
With a swing of 11.89% needed to unseat him in Bury South, it's no surprise that Ivan Lewis should be a leading member of the dithering brigade and unsure whether replacing "Duff" Gordon would help or hinder his personal chance of cliging on by the fingernails next time. Any views he may have on timidity are likely to have nothing to do with it.
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CEH RE IVAN LEWIS
"Ivan Lewis called on Gordon Brown to be a "decisive" leader, saying that "the only way forward now is bold Labour".
Voters needed reassurance that Labour was "on their side", the MP for Bury South told The Independent. "
Lets start with a contradictions, Gordon Brown and "decisive leader". Ho, ho, ho.
The "the only way forward is bold Labour." Not with all the dithering.
And then having proved otherwise saying voters need to know that Labour is "on their side." Wrong, they are on their own side, and that is trying to stay in power with nothing to give to the Country.
They have already proved that they are not capable of any of these things.
No wonder you (CEH) liked the piece so much.
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Guys
We're not the only ones inflicted with the thoughts of Charles. Just Google his name for an interesting time. His Zen thoughts are everywhere on the web!!
Is there an ignore button on this blog??
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Re #297 oldnat
Aaaarh, I hadn't thought of that way. Would it mean that if the Queen of Scots dissolved the Westminster Parliament, "Duff" Gordon could cock a snook and continue to sit there with a Scottish "rump"?
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Due to technical problems somewhere in the bowels of BBCybersphere, MaxSceptic has mutated to ScepticMax. (Mark Mardell once said that ScepticMax sounded 'nobler'. Hurrumph!)
I promise to be the same irascible, miserable, old git (no matter what my age).
So, back to business:
purpleDogzzz @278 wrote: "DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!" in respect of the prolix and pompous postings of Chuck E Hogwash.
I disagree. It's highly beneficial - like stamping on slugs to hear them squish. One has a bit of fun (well, each to their own...) while keeping the garden clear of pests.
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#304 PurpleDogzzz
The Labour Party will collapse anyway due to its internal contradictions. Some form of Tory Party will continue to exist.
If we had followed pttp's policy, then we'd still have a Labour Government!
I'm quite happy for you guys to destroy English Labour (we're already ahead of you), as long as I don't have to suffer the hypocritical Tories thereafter.
For those who want to march, feel free. The exercise will do you good. But a corrupt Parliament in which the LabTories voted for Iraq, won't listen now any more than they listened when people marched against the illegal war that the LabTories dragged us into.
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Whatissaidwas 292:
Is Milliband a Marxist?
Don't know about David but as I recall, his old man was a sociologist who set the world of Marxist/neoMarxist 'state theory' alight many many moons ago. By the way did anyone catch that drama on saddam last night? I ask because at times there seemed a rather chilling resemblance between Saddam's half brother in the drama and Mr Milliband. Could David be setting himself up with an alternative career? You know, just in case???
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Your hate mail is a good encouragement to Labour to develop a proper measure of confidence in itself, and a really, really bad advertisement for the opposition parties. Keep it up, dear.
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ref 320
Charles, if you're talking about bad advertisements for political parties.......
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320 CEH
That isn't hate mail, just the truth.
Keep using the rose/red tinted specs.
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Re #300 threnodio
"We need to start one"
The Liberal Party already comes close and I suggest you look at the policy statements on "Crime, Civil Liberties and the Law" and "Individual and Group Rights". Of course, they won't be putting up candidates for Westminster again anytime soon because of the crazy electoral system.
In the meantime, the LibDems seem to be the leastworst option in most of the UK. At least they are committed to changing the system, but I'd still vote SNP, Plaid, Tory or whatever if I thought they had the best chance of defeating NuLab in a specific seat.
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It's about making a solid case for a better alternative. That's not a matter of semantics but a measurable difference, not change for changes sake, or grabbing at straws, or going with the momentary fashion, and so on. It's a matter of judgement and maturity.
If people pulled this stunt every time they had a funny moment nobody would get anything done. I just think people have got themselves wound up over nothing and the media is fanning the flames. It's like the Princess Diana hysteria but in reverse.
It's all a bit dumb.
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'It's time for Nu-Labour to die'
Say the public, but their minions ask why:
Endless think-tanks, reviews
Bloated quangos, it's true
(And 'cause white males need not apply)
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#316 Brownedov
No, the English have to sort out their own affairs.
The Claim of Rights does give the Scots the right to declare that Elizabeth is no longer our Queen, but she's not the problem.
Its the corrupt LaboraTory (thanks threnodio) that uses her prerogative.
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BROWN versus MILIBAND
I can't help laughing at how Miliband is starting to do to Brown what Brown did to Blair.
Does anyone agree?
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re: 327
Yep it's the same, only Brown waited for much longer!
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NewLabour are exhausted and resistant to reform; the party's machinery is bankrupt and dependant on the unions; they face the biggest fiscal deficit since 1946 and a worsening economic climate.
This is like watching the end of Blair - it took some time but you knew it was coming and he'd go out badly screaming about a 'feral' media and grasping for his 'legacy'.
He's sure got a legacy - he handed over to a buffoon and unleashed a 'feral' public's anger on him for all the tax and spend and waste of the previous ten years.
The newLabour legacy is going to be to extinguish the Labour party from British politics for ever.
We won't miss it.
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I think it was John Major who said "Bastards"
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#323 - Brownedov
I have been a LibDem supporter for many years and an activist for a good many of those. Sadly, the other parties will only acknowledge them as a political force when they need to form an alliance whether in Scotland or in the shire counties. And guess what? They played along. I am sure oldnat will have his views but, notwithstanding they achieved quite a lot, I have always felt that the way the propped up Labour in Edinburgh when they clearly had far more in common with SNP was opportunism pure and simple.
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Re #322 mikepko
Thanks
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doctor-gloom: '[David Miliband's dad, Ralph] set the world of Marxist/neo-Marxist state theory alight'. Ah, yes, remember the time when people actually thought that books on 'base and superstructure in the revolutionary state' or 'alienation as a factor in working class consciousness' were worthwhile to read and write? Thank God we've left that rubbush behind.
Now I must return to reading my improving book on management empowerment in reengineered knowledge based businesses...
Seriously, though, what happened to all of the Marxist 'thinkers'? Did they die, or do they now just think more quietly...or doI go to the wrong bookshops?
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GB had no financial experience at all when he took over the job as Chancellor. I read somewhere that he was elected an MP at 29.
If all the experience he had was managing his own weekly household budget, what on earth gave him (and TB) the idea that he could ever manage the country's finances? Beats me!
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#326 - oldnat
Nothing, I assure you, would give the English greater satisfaction if only they were gifted the democratic tools so to do. Contrary to popular belief, we are on the same side. Paradoxically, it is Britain that is the problem.
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Re #326 oldnat
Thanks for the reassurance. I must having been having nightmares after watching the bunker video from yesterday.
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re: 333
Marxism's out of fashion now, partly because of its views on violence, partly because it's a crock of s**t!
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Whoever the next leader of the Labour party is, they are doomed to failure from the outset. I can't imagine why anybody would want the job.
They will be in the same position as Hague found himself after John Major. Head of a hugely unpopular party and facing a party with seemingly unstoppable momentum!
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Considering that I as a tax payer, help for pay MP's wages and that as a TV license payer I help pay your wages: why are you constantly failing to disclose who is telling you what. What use is it to tell us that a ‘little birdie’ in the cabinet told you something other than to point out to us mere tax and licence payers that you are such a trusted confidant of senior political figures that they trust you not to breathe a word to your employers?
If you know who's stirring up the labour leadership question in the cabinet why aren't you sharing it with us?... isn't that your job?!
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Charles E
You do go on a bit.
I noted your allusion to the Illuminati. Just what sort of New World Order do you have in mind? And do you really believe that this government is showing the way forward?
While I may have leanings towards different politicians (at different levels of representation), what I always hope is that they will be fairly competent.
There are areas of policy making that help to set a moral framework for a society.
Brown no doubt has serious ideas in those areas. But his main claim is that he has run a highly successful economy for a decade. I simply can't find it.
Present credit-crunch issues show how crass financial institutions can be with their "investments". I'd be happy to see a clear out of a lot of directors.
But the credit crunch and rapid rise in commodity prices has suddenly pulled away the cloak of invisibility draped over the UK's finances. People are, far too late, seeing the mess in government finances. The problems well pre-date the credit crunch.
So where is the economic competence that Brown trumpets? Where was the control over expenditure?
PS I'm still intrigued to understand the areas in which your "design, technology and industry" expertise lie. You come across as a Powerpoint Prince.
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My guess is even Miliband himself didn't know exactly what he meant. I think he faces a great dilemma: he'd love to be party leader, and knows that he has an excellent chance of doing so if he chooses to mount a serious challenge now.
On the other hand, he also knows that he has precious little chance of being Prime Minister for more than a few months if he does, as it's surely too late to turn the party's fortunes around before the election.
So I suspect he's put this rather cryptic statement out there to see what the reaction is to help him make his mind up.
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#331 threnodio
What? Me have views?
I think its down to the different body politics north and south of the border.
In Scotland, I think you are absolutely right about the Lib-Dems. Within the Scottish dialogue, they've ignored the one good card that they had to play - federalism - perhaps because their new centralist Labour friends didn't agree. Despite the Dunfermline by-election, they may be a busted flush in Scotland, except in providing their historic role in providing a distinctive and thoughtful voice for the Highlands and Borders.
In England, they do have an opportunity to recover their historic role as the protector of freedom, when Labour disintegrates into factional fighting. That's as long as they don't accept the rats deserting Labour.
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Maxsceptic, : You go on feeding that troll all you want, at least you know what you are doing and you know that he is a troll , so fair play to you.
Browndov: "In the meantime, the LibDems seem to be the leastworst option in most of the UK. At least they are committed to changing the system"
If only they were not totally committed to rendering themselves to be utterly irrelevant with their complete and total support for the EU. They are more pro EU than labour. They were correct over Iraq and some of their other policies are good, but they render those moot by their subservience to the EU. Their manifesto may as well say,
Liberal Democrat Manifesto:
Policies: whatever the EU tells us to do!
power_to_the_ppl: Thank you. I believe that we can retake our country. It may take 10 years, but the politicians are making it easier for us to achieve this everyday.
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Re #331 threnodio
I don't disagree with a word of your post, and have said as much in many of my posts on the NR and Brian Taylor threads. In particular, the LibDem coalition with NuLab in Holyrood ameliorated the worst excesses of Bliarism and went a long way to making home rule genuinely popular, though they've lost their way a bit lately.
I was also a supporter of the electoral alliance with the SDP, but felt that the merger was a step too far as it would not only water down Liberal policies but pose questions in the mind of the electorate whether parties really can work together in coalition. Perhaps I'm proven wrong on the latter, but the former has certainly happened in the LibDem policy.
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Marxism is a product of that great curse of the 20th century, the cult of the 'ism'. Everything had to be squeezed into little boxes - Marxism, Leninism, Marxist-Leninist Revisionism, National Socialism, Fascism, Thatcherism, cubism, surrealism, serialism, Freudianism - the list is endless.
Marxism is not and never was a political philosophy. It is a theory of economics hijacked by politicians for their own sinister purposes.
The 'ism', by the way, has been replaced in the 21st century by 'political correctness' - just as insidious and even more dangerous.
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#196 threnodio
With regard to "the consultant" I think I actually know who it is. Either way I am as hostile as hell.
I am sensitive about it as I am going to go to a doctor next week just to make sure I am NOT mad. Its all that bizarre. Really.
If I find I am not suffering a severe mental health problem I may take a kamikaze run at exposing "the consultant" - but the odds are very heavily stacked against me.
Meanwhile I adore the idea of a new party but for me you have to change the system first.
If the voting system does not reflect the aspirations of the people you have a skewed agenda before you even consider the performance of the parties.
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#335 thronodio
We agree. The Scots and English will usually be allies (except for sport!). But no one "gifted the democratic tools" to us.
It's taken us since the 1880's to get this far. I think you'll do it a lot quicker.
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#343 purpleDogzzz
I would vote Lib Dem but I thoroughly endorse your views with regard to Europe. I am pro-Europe/non federalist.
I describe them usually as "happy clappy" on Europe. They just need to say "Yeh!" now and again.
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#337 power_to_the_people
Usually I agree 100% with you and appreciate your comments. This time, however, I beg to differ. You say Marxism is out of fashion now, partly because of its views on violence, and secondly because it is a crock of s**t. Starting with the second premise, when did the mass of public opinion dismiss something because it is a load of rubbish? The first suggestion also doesn't hold weight, consider the violence in both the publlic and national levels throughout the world. I find it ironic that Max Mosley's background, namely his father Oswald, was continually referred to in the rather sordid, but decidely domestic and private case which made the papers. Milliband's political opponents do not continually refer to the fact that the young David was reared at the knees of an unrepentant Marcist professor. Stalin was just as much an enemy of the Allies as Hitler, and only the fact that the Molotov/Ribbentrop Pact fell through and was exposed did Stalin suddenly become an ally of the free world. Stalin went on to kill even more of his own people tahn Hitler did, and his Marxist cunning is a true characteristic of Marxists to this day.
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Re #342 oldnat
"That's as long as they don't accept the rats deserting Labour."
Excellent post, and your last sentence couldn't have expressed my concerns over the Liberal / SDP merger better, despite it including some "good eggs" like Cable.
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I do hope jimbrandt is enjoying his holiday in Southwold.
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#342 - oldnat
'The distinctive voice of the Highlands and Borders' suggests to me what I have suspected for some time, that West Lothian Question is not confined to UK politics and that it has been a not entirely unintended consequence of New Labour's devolution policy to leave the Highlands and Islands and the Borders under-represented and excluded from the political mainstream.
Would you agree?
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Re #343 purpleDogzzz
But the LibDem commitment to electoral reform would ensure that UKIP and the Greens, for example, have elected representation in Westminster after the "following" election.
I disagree totally with UKIP on most things and the Greens on many, but they have a right to representation if they can get a few percent of the electorate to back them. Once they're in that position, let the people decide whether they wither or grow.
I'm sore too, about the LibDems backing off the referendum promise over Lisbon, but I believe they would not make the same mistake twice and are also committed to a full In or Out referendum on EU membership.
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@351
He had a bit of a shock lunch time today when he read his Fish and chip wrapper and found that Milliband had launched a leadership bid lol
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Re #346 thegangofone
You certainly don't sound mad to me. Good luck next week.
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re: 349
Well I don't like Marxism primarily for these reasons:
(1) It makes life difficult and unpleasant for everybody, hence my second comment
(2) It doesn't account for the concept of individuality and so doesn't cater for the arts and culture. Marxist art? A statue of a labourer with a hammer and sickle, that's it
(3) As I said, it advocates violent overthrow of the ruling classes. People may distort other ideologies and find reasons for using violence but Marxism is quite explicit about the necessity of overthrowing capitalism by force. I know a few people who are very drawn to Marxism but have great problems with this aspect of it. What I meant was that if this particular passage had been omitted, then I think it would be more popular, in this age, as a political tract.
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333 Woundedpride:
Well, as you probably suspect, old Marxists never die. Many of them discovered the joys of 'consumption' (as opposed to 'production') when Maggie strut her stuff. Many of them (by now ex-Marxists) were directly and indirectly responsible for much of the conceptual drivel that new Labour subjected us all to during the last decade or so. You may recall Gordonbennet stating something like how the county required 'endogenous growth theory' etc. (I think that's what he said). This sort of language use was everywhere in the social sciences at the time, and began to permeate the 'discourse' (yuk) of new labour. As you're probably also aware, many of the arcane debates within Marxism etc. were prone to over conceptualisation and grandstanding with ill conceived and tedious abstractions. This way of thinking, debating and talking became normal for a whole generation of academics, and sadly a whole generation of leading new Labour polticians who felt that there was little need to have their 'words' reflect reality. Hence new labour, adopted a dangerous form of 'language politics' based on the 'elasticity' of the language which led to the endless spin we've all had to endure. Think about it, if words are 'elastic' then you can use them to mean almost anything. Anyway, that's my take on it. Apologies to anyone reading this though, but there you go.
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I know banging on about order, balance, and the long-term is a bit vague but the rest tends to follow from that. This economic stuff is getting too far off topic for me but I'll draw a quick sketch.
Brown's handling of the economy is in the context of the historical flow. The river's unexpectedly changed course. It happens, and the bust isn't that big an issue to sweat over.
The single biggest issue facing Britain is its economic fundamentals have their wires crossed. Unless that's challenged this situation will happen again. Brown is the only person I've heard in a position of power that's acknowledged this issue.
I see a lot of people screaming with 20-20 hindsight but you have to remember, taking on big business and consumption directly was a vote killer. Will the 'saviours' waiting in the wings tackle this if they get in? I doubt it.
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Re #348 thegangofone
Well put, especially the "happy clappy". That's a specific difference from the Liberal Party which has much greater concerns about the EU's democratic accountability.
But that doesn't stop them still being the leastworst for Westminster just yet.
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#352 threnodio
Yes. There is always a need to balance democracy in geography, as well as population. Labour being uber-centralist don't understand that, even apart from their assumption that the SNP voting North and South-West had to be kept down.
On principle, I dislike a unicameral system where one dominant party can push through it's agenda regardless. Though that is prevented to some degree by PR and the joys of minority government, the first 8 years showed how easy it is for 2 parties to do a stitch up. Hence I want a 2nd chamber in Scotland after independence (no more politicians - just divide them across the 2 chambers.
I think we could take the US constitution as a model, and update it for the 21st century in a much smaller country.
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#353 - Brownedov
So what about the idea I floated a long time back. A grand alliance for one election campaign only of all the minority parties with democratic credentials (so not BNP, National Front or whatever) along with the nationalist parties with the sole purpose of achieving a hung parliament.
This parliamentary grouping would then throw it's lot in with whichever political party was prepared to commit to PR as a precondition so breaking the two party system once and for all.
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Re #349 Phoenixarisen
Good post, which prompts me to wonder why the press only mention Oswald in his BUF reincarnation nowadays. and not as the aspiring young Labour minister who was one of the first to break with Ramsay MacDonald.
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#356 pttp
If you haven't already seen it, Monument Park (where they've put the Communist monuments) outside Budapest is worth a visit.
Just in case anyone gets feelings of nostalgia for the "good old days", they've parked a Trabant at the gates as a reminder of reality.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7534729.stm
More lies. By the way, look at the second pic, I think Lembit Opik took his split from the Cheeky Girl pretty hard lol
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#357 doctor-gloom
"a dangerous form of 'language politics' based on the 'elasticity' of the language"
While I agree with you, the rot started under the Tories. I still remember the new "Curriculum Guidelines" introduced into Scottish schools with a list of "entitlements" that pupils had.
Guidelines meant "Mandatory"
Entitlement meant "You'll do the subjects that we the Government prescribe, and we'll tell you how many minutes of each you'll do"
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Back to the title of the thread
Context is everything
Mr Miliband told BBC Radio 2's Jeremy Vine he was "not running a leadership campaign" against Gordon Brown.
No correct he isn't thats for his campaign managers to do
And Bob Marshall-Andrews accused Mr Miliband of "pretty contemptible politics", adding his behaviour had been "duplicitous". I think he should sack him if he doesn't resign and mount a proper leadership challenge," he said.
Thinking,I can then get on with backing his challenge once he is sacked.
Former minister Denis MacShane called for an end to such off-the-record briefings against the foreign secretary, saying these risked harming Britain's standing in the world.
"The national interest is now being damaged by these anonymous attacks on Miliband and they should stop now," he said.
Meaning leave Millband alone at least he has the gumption to challenge, I'll back him.
Meanwhile Labour must avoid being too "timid" if it is to win the next election, Health Minister Ivan Lewis has said.
He called on Mr Brown to be a "decisive" leader, saying that "the only way forward now is bold Labour".
Meaning resign, lets get an old guy in to lose the election then we can get a young guy or gal in afterwards.
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re: 363
Alright point taken ;) but I still have big problems with Marxism and the arts!
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#363 - oldnat
The irony of all that communist memorabilia gathered together as a monument to captalism :-)
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For the attention of Mr N Robinson
Dear Nick
You have always appeared a supporter of this Government in your reports. Although many of us have found your opinions particularly the analysis of a political situation at a particular moment in time interesting, the underlying support you have expressed for the Labour ragbag has been apparent.
No doubt none of that party takes time to read your blog because they are totally disinterested in the views of the electorate. In fact it is obvious they view us all as nothings.
Is there a way perhaps that you could convey to the likes of Brown, Straw, Milliband, Harman, Blears, Smith and Flint that the overwhelming response on your blog has been the utter contempt for them. This has verged on pure hatred for Labour and for everything they have done to our country.
You are perhaps better placed than all of us to do sobeforel the next election. We just cannot wait for that day.
Many of us glory in their humiliation at recent the by-elections, London and the Local Elections, but they appear immune to our feelings towards them.
It has been said previously that yes we want rid of them, and to change this rotten corrupt government, but we don't want to see a party elected with the sort of majorities they themselves were given and which they abused. In so doing they abused us.
The longer they leave the date of a General Election the lesser number of MP's they will have throughout our United Kingdom. That would not be good for the Conservative Party (or any other party of government for that matter)
It would be bad for us and a disaster for democracy.
Dear Nick,
.. on behalf of all contrubutors to your columns in particular and the electorate in general, please tell us - do you think these dreadful people understand just how much they are loathed?
Do they understand that they must go and no matter now what they may do or whom they may appint as their leader and THEIR Prime Minister it is just too late.
Will you be the one to tell them as you appear to have the ear of most of these little people, or will you chicken out too and consequesntly let us all down.
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364 - Power- to- the-ppl
Tha is a very fat Lembit. Like it!
Also liked an article in the current Private Eye.... seems to mirror a lot of discussion on this blog:
"So just as the 40 percent rule is about to be broken, it could be conveniently scrapped", reported the Eye in April last year (issue 1182). Now, the FT reveals , Treasury officials are indeed "working privately on plans to reform Gordon Brown's fiscal rules with a new framework that would initially allow for increased borrowing [above the existing 40 percent of gross domestic product limit]".
The problem last year was that tens of billions of PFI liabilities were due to come on to the government's books under new international accounting rules. These have been conveniently deferred until next financial year but couldn't be put off forever. So the rule has to be scrapped, but how to justify it?
Every cloud has a silver lining and a looming recession gives just the reason to call an end to Brown's most flexible of friends, the "economic cycle". Hey, presto! For a new cycle completely different fiscal rules will be required and the old ones will never be broken.
As the old rules retire, expect plenty of guff about how they served the economy well but now's time for a change. Their real legacy will be to have forced around £200bn of future spending into the private finance initiative just so commitments could be kept off the books. Enormous waste and hare-brained ideas such as privatising defence training are the result.
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Re #360 oldnat
Some sensible thoughts, but I still think a confederal constiution based on the Swiss one could save the UK. States' rights in the US one are taken a step further in Switzerland and big cantons such as Berne are having discussions on splitting up while smaller ones like the two Basels and some of the French speaking cantons often consider mergers.
Granted it doesn't happen every quarter but at communal level such things are put to referenda at least a couple of times annually and there were a couple of such approved in the last set.
Yet nothing prevents the federal government carrying on as normal with the specific powers awarded to it by the cantons. My US history is a bit rusty, but I seem to recall Virginia's split up as having been top-down.
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365 oldnat
Yeah, you're probably right there. I just think that under New-Labour this language stuff became a key 'tool' for misleading everyone about what they intended to do. They became a bunch of talkers. You know what I mean? endless yak yak yak with no content. All suits and no boots. That's pretty much all I'm saying, but good point all the same.
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Re #361 threnodio
Absolutely. I'd go with that 100% and don't quite understand why the LibDems don't make FAIRNESS the No.1 priority whenever they get a little media coverage.
I can only assume it's a post-merger thing as the pre-merger Liberals were always prepared to consider electoral deals.
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Civil War - what does Zen buddhism have to say about that one?
No doubt David Miliband actually meant to say: "I come in peace"
Sadly Geraldine Smith and Bob Marshall-Andrews, those well known back benchers, are calling for his resignation.
The problem for Gordon Brown is if he now doesn't sack Miliband he confirms his already justified reputation for dithering. If he does sack him he'll almost certainly trigger a leadership challenge.
Catch 22.
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re: 370
I knew they'd do it! I ruddy knew they would!
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#371 brownedov
NcNeill in "The Historical Scottish Constitution" claims that were similar social constructs in Scotland and Switzerland, which he suggests would have led to Scotland developing a constitution similar to Switzerland, had it not been for the Union.
(That would be of course, after our 18th century Civil War which far too many Scots see as a Scots/English one)
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#373 - Brownedov
Oh, you do understand - with the greatest respect.
Because they have sold out. There are simply too many of them in nice cosy little sinecures up and down the country milking exactly the same cash cow as their big brethren.
Why go to all the risk and effort of dividing and conquering when the crumbs from the table are so tasty.
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Re #363 oldnat
Good to have a disagreement with you occasionally. I do have some nostalgia for the Trabbi and was pleased to see a pristine Mk.I version in a Cracow museum not long ago. I even came across a good Mk.II from Berlin (including driver) last October in Lisbon.
It might have been developed into something competitive had the East German bit of the old Auto Union empire not been starved of the resources the Japanese put in to cleaning up two-strokes. The Wartburgs are also quite interesting historically. In some ways both were less awful than the US gas guzzlers of the same era.
From a political point of view, I agree with your post totally.
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Re #364 power_to_the_ppl
LOL - I can certainly see why they might be "on a break"
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#372 doctor-gloom
Harry Reid in the Herald has a very good article about Unionists use of language in the Press.
http://www.theherald.co.uk/search/display.var.2413521.0.0.php
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Re #366 Pot_Kettle
Do you have a URL re Bob Marshall-Andrews?
I'll be surprised if he really supports Milliband given his public hatred for Bliar, but he's certainly shown little love for "Duff" Gordon.
Could he just be stirring the pot?
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I pretty much said everything at the topic of this topic. People would be better off enjoying their holidays or walking the dog. Let go, problem solved.
I think, the government should hire me as a special advisor. Wow, man. Special Advisor for Doing Nothing. That would be a peachy job. When can I start?
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Re #376 oldnat
Haven't read NcNeill, but I'll put it on my book list. Doubt I'll get hold of it in Geneva, but must head there v. soon as it's Swiss National Day tomorrow and we need some food before the shops close.
I'll respond to any other posts needing one right now but will be back tonight I expect.
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Re #377 threnodio
Points entirely taken, which is why I remain a Liberal and not a LibDem.
I still regard them as leastworst option for Westminster unless another party has a better chance of unseating Labour in a specific seat.
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369 U kingdom,, Where have you been hiding, hasn't any body told you that two years ago Labour were voted into power for the third time and with a sizable majority. there wasn't to much loathing or hatred then, only a smell of recession later that created a media hate campaign a little hardship and that brings people like you out of your hideaway.
You say ".. on behalf of all contrubutors to your columns in particular and the electorate in general, please tell us - do you think these dreadful people understand just how much they are loathed?".
Which contributers do you claim to represent you dont represent me and there's not a chance in a million that your ever likely too or many others on these blogs and who elected you as spokesman
for any contributer anyway. names on the back of a postage stamp please.
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Paul Mason is becoming increasingly surreal! - and I'm far too old to understand the musical allusions on his blog.
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Will Woodward chases headlines in The Guardian with Bob Marshall Andrews but The Independent lets slip that things aren't so black and white. Sure, people are being a bit habitual and reactive but there's no declared will to undermine Gordon Brown and there's strong support for other capable MP's.
I think, when people properly grok what Miliband had to say and his later comments that explained his motivations, people will have something useful to focus on. The media is clearly milking this for all its worth so the shift in focus will help tune their meddling out.
People tend to gawp on a fight, and removing the fight will just cause all the bad news to evaporate. Sure, the media will try and wring it again but they're only trying it on. Get focused on government and a more realistic and voter friendly picture will emerge.
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382 Charles_E_hardwidge
If you are looking for a role as a special advisor doing nothing - I am sure there are plenty of opportunities for you....
Quangos are the way forwards. You can earn some serious wedge running one of them.
Even though I'm fed up with the amount of waste in Quangos - it would be nice to sit with my feet up in a Quango than working hard at my current job.
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re: 385
Ah so the Labour Party propaganda chief returns ;)
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356 power_to_the_people
Yes, I can see what you mean. Marxist art? I can only use a word that rhymes with art and starts with a letter which appears after 'e' in the alphabet. I've been 'removed' once already today, so must write carefully!
362 Brownedov
Good point. Probably my reasoning is rather simplistic and is purely subjective, so take it with a pinch of salt. I believe that the young, obviously egocentrical (like all politicians) Oswald Mosley was driven bonkers by the even more ego-driven, hypocritcal MacDonald. Ramsey MacDonald had a mistress, and this clashed with his puritan soul. His puritan attitude to sex also was in direct conflict with the Marxist theories of 'free love' and other garbage. MacDonald was only to happy to use Mosley as a scapegoat for the failures of his government to curb unemployment, and to this day, the socialists have blackened thsi man's name to a darker shade of black than even his shirt!
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380 oldnat:
cheers I'll take a look.
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#383 brownedov
Wouldn't go out of my way for McNeill's book. It's the 1971 re-write of his 1943 pamphlet. It's actually of more interest as an example of the rather romantic nationalism, from which the SNP started - but has long left behind.
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grandantidote, can you bung an extra line in between your paragraphs. It's hard to read your stuff without them. Tah.
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394 Watch out CEH. I suggested that a few weeks ago and was roundly told off!!!
Anyway, GA hardly ever says anything worthwhile. He would make GB a wonderful Yes Man.
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re: 395
Sadly so. One day he'll realise the extent to which he's brainwashed and then he'll turn back to the Blue. Until then all we can do is try to educate him, the poor chap!
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#s 356/390 et al
I am confused about what you mean by Marxist art. Googling it, I find that nobody actually appears to know what it is.
Socialist Realism I understand, monumental statuary I understand, communist propaganda I understand but Marxist Art?
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The Times seem to have taken the story much further.
tinyurl.com/6ehytn
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385
As clearly you prefer that I don't represent you, I feel that it is my duty to help you, afterall it is the least I do do.
It would appear that you do not understand what has happened during the past eleven years, and worse you cannot see what is wrong now.
Your smokescreen serves little purpose and your assumptions are without foundation.
We do understand your frustration with the state of your beloved party, however
what do you know or care of how others cope in difficult times
I quote you as saying the following
"a little hardship and that brings people like you out of your hideaway"
This of course illustrates all too well the attitude of your leaders and your Prime Minister to the people of this nation. I would say that whilst you have verbally expressed such outrages, they have expressed as much by their very actions.
You defend them, you close your eyes, you need the help of many more contrubutors than I alone
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It doesn't really make that much difference who's leader in the long run. We the public have had 11 years too much of the lying cheating stealing Labour party
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That last post was for the latest blog, whoops.
re: 397
It's a vague umbrella term but I used it to refer to 'art' created under the rule of Marxism, so borderline propaganda really
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CEH
You are a brave man!
grandantidote doesn't even make a comment to me now - can't think what I've done.
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Ukingdom
Grandantidote told me to buy a mercedes a while back. He can afford to run one so he might not be feeling the pinch as much as the rest of us!
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Re #390 Phoenixarisen
Interesting - parallels between Diane Abbott's "Ramsay McBlair" and his Milliband Major acolyte are closer than I thought. If he fails to get the leadership will Milliband Major be founding a new movement, I wonder?
My original point was made half-seriously, but whenever I think of Oswald Mosley I find it impossible not to think of Wodehouse's superb parody of him in Roderick Spode and his Blackshorts, yet I do realise that Mosley and his clique were far from funny. What next, Blacksneakers?
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Re #389 power_to_the_ppl
Be fair, can you name someone who could do better?
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Re #392 oldnat
Point taken. Google only found 3 hits and one of those was a US university library. Might try my old uni's library next time I'm in Blighty but shan't go out of my way. The UN library in the bowels of the old Peace Palace has an incredible number of political tracts but the worst indexing I've seen, so even if they have it, it won't be easy to find.
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re: 405
Better than grandantidote? Jimbrant (possibly) but he's at the beach, and won't he be in a pickle when he comes back!
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re: 402
Same, hehe!
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399 UKingdom Are you for real, no I'm sorry I shouldn't have said that, it goes against all that I have been taught about handling people like you. It's alright I'll take note of what you say. just go now and have a nice long lay down, you'll feel better in the morning. Goodnight now.
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395 Mikepko well mike your mixing on here with the wrong company, you used to be quite a nice chap but you've obviously got caught up in the Tory feeding fenzy, they'll lead you astray mark my words, if you turn on your old friends you'll live to regret it, so dont be a nasty old Mikey.
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400 Ppl , Boring repetative Tory rhetoric.
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403 Shellingout, I'm thinking of changing to a Volvo the Mercedes is getting a bit old hat now.
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407 There you are lads now you have something to keep you off the streets,by the way you can buy a Mercedes all you have to do is give up smoking and drinking alcohol although reading some of these posts that will be quite a challenge for many of you.
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Re #409 et seq grandantidote
I think you're on your own now - everyone else has moved on to Nicks new thread
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I'll gladly change my mind grandantidote if you can provide strong evidence/proof that Labour's woes are not of their own making. Seriously I will!
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GA - It must be nice to be rich.
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409 grandantidote
Do we detect a note of agitation in your brief reponse
Sadly we all have to live in the real world created by your party whilst it would appear that you do not.
Are you perhaps Ms Harman taking a few minutes off from showing the family and friends around your PM's residence, or could it that you are young Miss Milli lurking in the bushes
Just get used to the idea your so called party is going to thrown out in disgrace just as soon as they have the courage to call an election.
You will witness a crusade for freedom, never again must we allow people such as those you follow to have any any form of power.
Go on, fight within yourselves - we will be happy to see the back of you all
We may even invite you to the national celebration just to help your struggle with the political learning curve, essential help because this stagnation is holding you back
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re: 417
Yes! VIVA LA REVOLUTION
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418 Ppl I should have known you would jump an this guys crazy bandwagon are well like attracts like, so have a nice time in the never neverland.
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414 browndov it just goes to show how wrong you can be.
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415 ppl what mind is that.
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416 shellingout, I'm sure you and some of your Tory friends could tell us what it feels like.
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re: 422
grandy you cheeky monkey, I have an MA you know. And I'm still waiting for some evidence/proof ;)
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417 Ukingdom
"You will witness a crusade for freedom, never again must we allow people such as those you follow to have any any form of power."
I liked the message and wish it could be true. But, despite sharing your dream, and I think it can only remain as a dream,who is going to lead this crusade for freedom? In Britain's darkest hour, Churchill arose to bring back hope, pride and the ability to rise up and fight to a divided and hurt nation. Who today could fill that role? I cannot see anybody in the conservative party, whilst the Nat Libs are completely out of the equation. Obviously, the first step is to get these destroyers out of power, hopefully restore the values which once made this country great, real ethical values and not politically correct decrees which just maintain the power base of a pseudo marxist political body.
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I think a bit of poker psychology wouldn't go amiss. I've been on the lookout for some "tells" in what Miliband has been writing and saying - the kind of linguistic equivalent of body language, and this is one that struck me at his press conference:
"Can Gordon lead us into the next election and win? Yes! I'm absolutely sure of that!"
Now my diagnosis is as follows:
1. Either DM is completely and utterly deluded to the point where he has absolutely no grasp of reality. There is no way, of course, that he can be "absolutely sure" (heavy stress on the "absolutely") that GB - or Labour - can win, even if they were flying high in the polls. (Unless of course DM is a time-traveller and has already seen the forthcoming Labour victory).
2. If we grant DM some faint grasp of reality, then we would have to explain this comment as a case of psychological compensation - or a "poker tell". His "absolutely sure" is a big grin to compensate for the fact that he knows he has a lousy hand - and that lousy hand is GB. His language suggests to me that he means the complete opposite of what he is saying.
Anyone agree with me? Is someone gonna call his bluff?
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Perhaps, just perhaps this could work.
But it seems unlikely. Brown strikes me as another Thatcher (i.e. dragged out kicking and screaming) and Labour simply do not have the same "assassination" mechanisms as the Tories. More "grey beards" than the 1922 "men in grey suits".
If he fights this now it could be a bloodbath, and the parts of the electorate that may still give Labour their vote in 2009/10 (i.e. me!) will think they need some time off, and vote Lib Dem.
Perhaps it is best to force an election and let Brown take the hit, and the humiliation.
I just don't think that even fresh blood of the Miliband variety and save Labour now.
Sad but true.
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The biggest bluffers are the armchair pundits around here.
There's very little comment I can take seriously because it's mostly lies and negativity for the sake of it. This is just a bandwagon to "win" on some online comments section.
The people who would scream about that observation would only do it because it ruins their "fun".
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#428
I hope, Charles, you can bear another comment from one of the great unwashed....
Pity me for my ignorance, but I was actually making a serious point, if you had bothered to think about it. This is becoming reminiscent of the turbulence and desperation of autumn 1990. OK, Major clung on in 1992, but that was because of the weakness of the opposition. That is not likely to be the case in 2010.
So I anticipate deja-vu: an autumn of personal back-stabbing, and recriminations.
Why is DM playing the humility card? This is a farce. A government cannot admit to not having prepared properly for the peace in Iraq and then expect the electorate to just say: "Oh that's OK, an understandable human error. We forgive you." It's was so obvious that Iraq was going to implode in a power vacuum, if they had had even the most fleeting understanding of the social make-up of the country. So DM is trying to pull the wool over the electorate's eyes on that one.
Can we take DM's article at face value? Not if we are logical thinkers. DM: "...we don't need a summer of introspection." So what does he do? He writes an article which, unless he is incredibly naive, he must have known would provoke the very introspection he was claiming to prevent.
DM: "The odds are against us. No question." And then at his press conference: "Can Gordon lead us into the next election and win? Yes! I'm absolutely sure of that!" Funny how he can be so certain, when he knows that "the odds are against us"? If Gordon's future success was such a dead cert, why not at least mention him in the article, instead of giving such space and importance to David Cameron.
DM: "I disagreed with Margaret Thatcher, but at least it was clear what she stood for. She sat uncomfortably within the Tory party because she was a radical, not a conservative." Fine, David. But let's apply that argument consistently to any politician in the Labour party, who does anything right: "He/She is not really Labour." You can't have it both ways: "if Labour succeed, what a wonderful party we are, please vote for us (and if we fail we're only human, please forgive us). But if the Conservatives succeed, is because they're not real Conservatives, so avoid them like the plague!"
Come on, surely we can see that DM's article is pure nonsense. It is a desperate act of self-aggrandisement, in anticipation of the autumn blood-letting.
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re: 429
Spot on.
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Okay, I'll take your comment seriously.
One of my old lines is people see what they want to see. This may be true. It may not be true. Perhaps, it doesn't matter but how you perceive and deal with things does. This is where insight and flexibility help.
Some people will say and have said that it weakens Gordon Brown and splits the party. Another perspective is that it strengthens Gordon Brown and heals the party. What do people want? What do people need?
I have my own vision of what I'd like to see, and Gordon Brown for all his pluses and minuses is just another Zen stepping stone. In time, the opposition, media, and public may get a similar clue. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is enlightenment.
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424 Power to the ppl. What sort of MA, at a guess it would be Maniacle Appreciation.
To change your mind ppl you would need a scalpel and trepan
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Well guys they call this the silly season and on these blogs it's certainly living up the to that title.
I have never read so much drivel that I have read on here from tory supporters of all colours since I gave up reading the Dandy and the Beano when I was ten year old I expected a little elation after the Glasgow election and as I said earlier I didn't blame you for that.
What I am suprised at is that some of you guys who were lucky enough to have a better education than I and yet your posts are like the stuff children write on toilet walls and the poems almost as bad.
If you want to critisise any member of the government, thats fine but do try to use a modicum of diplomacy and without what appears to be the mentality of a five year old when trying to find new names to try to discredit certain individuals. it doesn't in any way discredit them it merely makes you rather childish and a little foolish.
As I have said before once is funny more than once is boring and unfunny.
I am quite sure that if this stupid rheteric continues we will lose more bloggers off here already some have moved away owing to the ridiculous writing of some bloggers.
And I am sure that some of you would regret that but not the nutters of course.
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re: 432, grandantidote
It was an MA in literature, I wrote the dissertation on Philip Larkin
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434power to the ppl, Well well! ppl I did think that you would come back with a clever retort but it seems not, it seems to me that you can give it but you cant take it.
So Phillip Larkin is your alter ego thats why you keep writing crap poetry, he would be very disappointed in your rather mundane efforts but please dont try harder, just admit your useless at it.
Iwould have thought that Pop Larkin from "The Darling buds of May"would have been more your style,
You'd be perfick for it.
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Nick, you and the rest of the media is a cynical beast so you can ever take anything said by politicians or anyone else for that matter at face value. You always have to dig for a story which may not actually there, and if it isn't you plant seeds of doubt in people's minds about something. This is especially true about the supposed recession, we have been talked and nudged into it thanks to you and your fellow journalists!
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re: 435
Lol you moan when I give proper answers and you moan when I don't! And at least I answer the question unlike you and your party! I'll bet you've been taking lessons from PMQs on youtube, hehe. I'll ask you a third time shall I grandy, would you care to present some sort of evidence (I'll let you off the proof, seeing as none exists) to suggest that Labour do not deserve to be thrown out of office immediately?
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Ah grandantidote... I presume from your lack of reply that you're not a Nu-Lab spin doctor, they would've taken such an opportunity to bang on about vision/courage/change at great length. That can mean only one thing... you're one of the party faithful who support them regardless of policy! I thought you'd all died out with the dinosaurs! Don't be surprised if you wake up and David Attenborough's peeking through your window with a videocamera!
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I've noticed over the years that some people are usually first to start talking people into a recession. This may be a "clever winning strategy" but can do real damage to the country as it undermines business and consumer confidence. This strategy is often emulated by gangstas in the hood to dictators as a way of getting and staying on top. They'd rather be the king of a ruin than a peasant in a castle.
This is where focusing on a sound leadership position and letting criticism slide by is helpful. The Labour Party historically suffers from getting sucked into arguing, and people are easily manipulated on the internet by a small number of toxic individuals. Simply, by just writing the best comment you can and letting junk slide by you can be effective and not get painted by confusing and negative tone.
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437power to the ppl, I shouldn't really play this game with you.
I notice that you dont seem quite so funny now, I wonder why.
As to you question, if you dont know what labour have done, then nothing that I say will make any difference but try full employment for a starter for ten.
You'll come up with some spurious statistics to attempt to prove me wrong so you see it's pretty pointless to debate with you and impossible to change your mind unless you take my earlier suggestion,
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I'm not that old but I remember the level of material wealth compared to today, and there's almost no comparison. Almost everyone can afford a colour television, watch movies in their own homes, own a mobile telephone, drive a car that doesn't leak oil all over the road, and so on. Sure, some of that's the march of history but life is materially good even for people on modest incomes.
Healthcare has improved in leaps and bounds. People who may have died or suffered disability or pain for the rest of their lives can be dealt with today. Plus, queues are much, much lower. The targets have helped deliver that, and as things have changed for the better the targets are melting away as they're not needed anymore.
People fret about the pensions timebomb but I tend to think it's an illusion. I can't be bothered to argue numbers so will leave it at that, but as people have become healthier and are beginning to want to stay engaged and relevant, the opportunity to continue working has become a real option. No so long ago most folks would take retirement and get a heart attack in the garden a few weeks later.
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I'm sure I don't need to point out that government statistics are dubious--- take for example their emissions claims:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7536421.stm
What do you mean by 'full employment'? Reducing high unemployment? OK, that's fair enough, but thats hardly overwhelming evidence and its partly due to the creation of non-jobs via quangos which I'm sure you'll remember Labour promised to vastly reduce in number. But then quango creation ballooned out of control, (1162 of them now, swallowing collectively 100 billion a year [!!!]) another broken promise. And then you have political correctness and 'elf n safety', all well-intentioned but with unforeseen consequences. It seems to me that they just don't think things through, eg the 10p tax band abolition as well, and the good things that Labour have achieved have been achieved by what the public would call deceptive means. And if you add all their mistakes on top of that, and the lies, one of many being Brown's unconvincing reason as to why he bottled the election, the refused referendum, and the refusal to answer questions eg every PMQs, then it looks to me (at best!!) like they've been in power too long and we need a change, and at worst that they hold us in contempt and are incompetent, grasping and greedy, eg the overhaul of expenses that was blocked by Labour MPs.
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Post 442 is in response to 440, forgot to add that!
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That will do. The rest is dragging in the kitchen sink. I could run through all of that and give a different and positive interpretation but, quite frankly, it's an ordeal and nobody cares.
The problem with obsessing about something you oppose is you tend to turn into it. As Gordon Brown is becoming more confident and approachable, why is it the Tories are turning into awkward list reading bores? Answers on a postcard.
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441 C E hardwidge you see my prediction in 440 and your observation in 441 and 444 have clearly been born out in ppl 442, its a total waste of time.
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I'm sure, some people don't actually believe most of the comment they're writing and are just testing their strength online. I filter it out and let them come around in their own time.
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Whoops!
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anyone out there.
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#448 grandantidote
No
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449Rollon 2010, So TAG and Purpledogzzz were right. armageddon has arrived, a bit earlier than they said, but you cant fault them they were nearly right, Have a nice time in Hell all you bloggersand no fighting over who gets the best shovel.
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Why do you always hide on the out-of-date threads grandy?
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451ptppl, I wasn't aware that I did in fact I think this is the first time that I have, but then its still open for comment, I was just bored and thought I'd have a look and see if anyones about and there you were with rollon waiting to attack some poor little labour supporter. and all that I was doing is looking for company, just my luck to find you two, hope your enjoying your rest.
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I would rather have Cameron than that idiot anyday, What is it going to take for the dumb-inept Labour party to get the message. They are finished, and also why is our so called PM is talking about writing another crappy book, when clearly he should be cleaning his desk out, Look Mr.Brown if you have the time to write yet another utter drivel book, why havent you got the time to fix these serious problems UVE caused. Why, because just as it is with ALL politicans its US vs them, greedy self-centered hypocrites. I hope once his book is published the pensioners use it for fuel on there coal fires. Because thats all Brown and co is worth, DEAD-WOOD. Milliband go where the sun doesnt shine, im sure ull find your courage there, ask gormless Brown for advice on that.
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