Unpredictable politics
This resignation is quite extraordinary and without precedent that I can think of in British politics and means that politics is now utterly unpredictable.
(Here was my initial reaction on the BBC News channel just after Mr Davis's statement.)
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David Cameron has lost control of his strategy. This was not his decision. He was not asked for his agreement. He was informed late last night by David Davis that he was going to do this come what may. That he was going to resign and trigger this campaign. This is not a campaign that Mr Cameron wants, it is not part of his strategy and indeed, I am told by senior Tories who know Mr Cameron well, that this was David Davis' personal decision and will be his personal campaign.
Now Mr Cameron has moved very quickly indeed to replace Mr Davis insisting that there are lots of issues on which the Tories have to have opinions and views and stances other than 42 days. But interestingly he's kept his options open. Dominic Grieve is personally very close to David Davis and they agree entirely on the civil liberties agenda. It's therefore possible that if Mr Davis wins on this issue, he could get his old job back on his return to the Commons.
But there's a lot of water to go under the bridge before then - not least the fact that we will have a by-election in which the Lib Dems apparently will not put a candidate up against Mr Davis. They were the big challengers to him so it's a straight Tory/Labour battle in addition to any other third or more marginal parties which will put themselves forward.
No-one today can have any idea frankly what the consequences will be other than they are unpredictable and it's a very dangerous time for David Cameron indeed.
I'm 
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Don't see how it's dangerous for David Cameron at all. Any team leader wants some heroes on his side who are prepared to stand up and fight for what they believe.
The by-election will be fought and won by David Davies having brought all the NewLabour hacks out again to try and defend their case.
What about the nine DUP members who will now come under intense scrutiny to volunteer exactly what concessions they were offered to buy their political favour?
Will all nine appear on the GMTV sofa to explain their decision? They should be invited.
Good Luck Mr Davies. Democracy salutes you.
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Nick
This is not a story about Tory spilts and danger for the Tories - that is the line fed to you by the Labour spin machine.
This is about a man of principle fighting for what he believes in. David Davis deserves plaudits for taking a stand.
It would help if the BBC could find a political editor who was willing to report things even-handedly - instead of just repeating lines fed to him.
You should be ashamed of your posting
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It's a shame they don't all resign.
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Well, Nick, you may try to spin this as a split, but Cameron is fully supportive of this brave and principled decision.
The government's totalitarian tendencies have gone too far. With Davis in the Tories, we know that they will respect our freedoms and our privacy.
This will kill off Labour! I look forward to a conservative victory in the next general election and a Liberal Democrat opposition.
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doubt its as dangerous for Cameron as it is for Brown and New Labour
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There is in fact a precedent. George Lansbury resigned his seat in 1912 on the issue of supporting the Suffragette Movement. He lost.
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You're joking right?
You think David Cameron doesn't want this? Try reading the HYS boards on this website, post after post of people applauding the integrity of the Conservative party and pledging their vote at the next election. Cameron will be delighted!
David Davis is running a by-election in a safe conservative seat, at a time when the tories are trouncing Labour in the polls. Victory is guaranteed, and if there was any doubt, the Lib Dems have agreed not to run against him.
The result? Well for a start the Tories have pinched Gordon Browns headlines on the day he was going to claim that he is making a comeback. They keep the 42 days debate going for another few months, and when the tories win the seat (and keep in mind they'll be winning back Boris Johnsons seat in the meantime) they will be continuing the momentum they have picked up since Crewe and Nantwich.
It's a political gimmick, nothing more, albeit a genius one!
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Congratulation to David Davis. He is a real man of principle. I think most of the population agree with his comments on intrusion, snooping and databases; George Orwell's 1984 in all its forms
If only all MPs had the guts to stand by their principles we would have a much better and more honest parliament. Yesterdays 42 day vote is a case in point.
In reality, had it been a free vote Brown may still have won with many Conservatives voting yes and many Labour MPs voting no. It was a travesty bringing parliament in disrepute.
I will now email David Davis support him in his stand. This action, and others like it, are the ones that separate heroes from cowards.
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I have watched his speech and agree with every word. But I fail to see how re-standing in his own constituency proves anything one way or the other. He would almost certainly get re-elected even if he stood as an independent. The Lib Dems are not running, Labour would be on a hiding to nothing anyway, but especially in the present climate, so what price they may not contest the seat either? That would make the whole thing rather pointless, but even if they do run, what chance of them winning? Next to nil I suspect, so what does Mr Davis hope to achieve? Or is this about some personal bargaining chip with Cameron about turning back the tide of state intervention after the next election? If so, good luck to him. There must be more to it than the 42 days detention vote?
I admire David Davis hugely, always have, agree that he is a man of honour and principle. I am just slightly bewildered by this.
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A Noble deed? Rubbish, he'll get safely re-elected but cost the British taxpayer dosh.
Anyone know just how much running an unneeded by-election will cost the British public?
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Nick,
Having watched your piece to camera and then David Cameron's piece, there seems to be some disagreement. Cameron says that the conservative party and himself will be supporting Davis's by-election campaign. I trust your piece for this evening's bulletins will be less partisan.
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Not sure the emphassis that this is dangerous for Cameron is justified.
This is surely a one-off by an unusual and individualistic person who clearly feels more strongly about a single issue than his colleagues.
the implications are something we'll have to think through more carefully than usual.
One occasion where you should perhaps have held your fire, rather than rushing to judgement?
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I rather think that Davis's resignation will win him support and kudos amongst the general public, whilst drawing attention to the erosion of civil liberties which has taken place under Labour. All in stark contrast to the pathetic Gordon Brown who is playing cheap politics with an issue of fundamental importance.
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Sorry Nick, you are wrong on this. To me it looks like Davis is making a stand on an issue he feels most strongly about. He is attacking Brown and only Brown over his consistent erosion of our civil liberties.
Cameron can just stand there and say 'Davis is his own man, this is something he felt he had to do'. It does not make him look weak, it makes him look like a man who empathises with Davis' campaign. While Brown looks like an authoritarian.
Davis will win, he will rejoin the shadow cabinet, Brown loses a third by-election on the trot. Where was your comment on the possible consequences for the PM?
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Of all the speeches I've seen on the 42-days issue, that by David Davis yesterday was far and away the most impressive and convincing.
His resignation over one of the most important issues in British politics today - the creeping erosion of our civil liberties - shows that there is at least one MP with a conscience and with the integrity and guts to "Dare to be a Daniel".
I hope that only the Labour party will stand against him, and that he defeats them with a record majority showing that English people do care about the liberty of their fellow citizens and their children.
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I could not think of a Conservative Politician who is more likely to turn of the electorate than Dominic Grieves, the new shadow Home Secretary.
Jacqui Smith will think all her birthdays have come at once. What a gift to Labour.
Grieves will tangle the electorate up with such legal boring jargon, he will loose the plot as he cannot help himself.
The electorate will be bored to death by his nit-picking and will switch off. What a bad choice. A clever man but an extremely bad communicator.
He also has a very condescending manner. I personally think Davies has taken leave of his sense, or is going through a male menopause.
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I think this could be a great moment in politics.
A politician making a principled stand for freedom and democracy; to fight against an increasingly authoritarian and corrupt Labour government
And kudos too, to the Liberal Democrats for supporting this move across party boundaries and refusing to field a candidate.
I hope that the people of this country can rise to the occasion and kick Labour out of power for good; and replace them with the Lib Dems as the main opposition party at the next election.
We need to get some HONESTY back in our political process.
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It tells you all you need to know about labour that they would consider a principled stand in defence of privacy from unnecessary government intrusion, freedom and liberty is a "gimmick".
freedom and liberty are NOT gimmicks.
I have never ever been more ashamed of the Government, or as proud of the actions of a politician.
We may yet have found our RON PAUL!
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I could not agree more with the comment about politics being unpredictable. It seems to me to be just like politics in America with Obama winning the democratic nomination for President. This is so important that if Davis loses then we should abandon hope.
When will the bye election actually be held. Could Gordon Brown in some way delay it. The bye-election must be held as a matter of urgency.
David Davis is no Enoch Powell, I have personal experience of the powers of this government in respect of injunctions taken to prevent free speech and if there is anything I could do to assist the victory of a principled politician then I will.
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Good for David Davis. I'm joining the Conservative party as soon as their site is back on-line
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6 rhonddao1
Bit different. In 1912 the suffragettes we're causing lots of trouble and became disliked by the voting public. Men!!!
David Davis on the other hand is taking a principled stand on an area of government that everyone I know, of all classes and political persuasion hates, namely the erosion of our liberties and constant snooping on our private affairs.
This isn't a political stand, it is a a national one.
Although he didn't resign, Churchill also in 1912, I think, crossed the house to the Liberals on a point of principle, Tariffs.
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It may be principled, but I can't for the life of me see what he can achieve. He wants a single issue election, but in a constituency where his main opponent is not going to stand. At the last election he got 22696 votes, and the Labour candidate 6033. So he's going to win. So what?
Maybe Labour won't oppose him anyway, though that could be spun against them I suppose. In any case it wouldn't make much difference to the significance of his eventual 'victory'.
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Well they say that Cameron is Blair mark 2.
A lot of people called Blair, Bliar, David Cameron should now be called Bliar mark 2 as he came onto camera today saying he supported Davies, however it is being widely reported that there was one hell of a row between Cameron and Davies after the vote last night.
It is also being reported that the Conservative machine will not be behind him. So much for Cameron and his principles.
The Liberal Democrats are not putting up a candidate.
I hope he knows he is taking a risk as this seat could go to UKIP.
The top and bottom of this is ,this is a power struggle as Cameron did not want to be seen as soft on politics, Davis wished to be more gung ho. Davies managed to persuade Cameron to go his way. On this issue a lot of Conservatives thought that Davies was pushing this in the wrong direction.
I hope Labour does not dignify this crass stupidity by putting up a candidate.
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Nick
Can you please explain why this is dangerous to David Cameron? I would have thought that bringing the increasingly authoritarian Labour government to the public's attention would do nothing but good for the Conservatives, and nip any Brown revival in the bud.
Of course I'm not an Oxford PPE graduate, so what do I know questioning your piece!!!
PS Whatever happened to kiwilegs?
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How can Nick justify saying that the Tories are in strategy chaos. Stop repeating what the government tell you, parrots!
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Nick - I am not a supporter of either party but this one is a shocker and appears to be blatantly biased. How on earth is this dangerous for Cameron exactly? Have you thought that some Labour rebels might not follow suit as independents to keep their seats at the next election and distance themselves from the Government? I would.
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A very clever stunt no doubt, but its also a very good way to make a very very good point. No labour MP would dare take this stance.
His speach was spot on, lets hope that feeling continues when the Torys win the next election.
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And Gordon called it opposition for opposition's sake?
Well have some of that GB. I bet that left you a bit speechless when you were tucking into your lunch today.
Well done David Davis. This does not weaken the tories, they have won the argument not GB. I don't know who the people who said they wanted this law (68% apparantly) but I have yet to find any single person who agrees with it. This was an own goal for the government and not a fight worth fighting.
I completely agree with David Davis and he has spoken about this issue considerably. We must not change our way of life because of a few fundamentalists. He is a highly respected and principled man and undoubtedly more respected now than he was previously.
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Nick, your posts are usually very informative.
This one, however, is so out-of-touch it's unbelievable.
Get off your Government-fed spin, and stand up for the rights of the population like you should be, given we pay your salary.
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I hate to break it to you , Nick, but outside of Whitehall in that strange place we call "The rest of the country", it's more important to see a politician do the right thing than see them do it in the right way.
I can't help but think that you're more interested in a story about political bickering than you are about changing the very nature of the relationship between citizen and state.
He claims that he is putting his job on the line on a matter principle over civil liberties and this is the first time in many, many years that I can say I honestly believe a politician.
Quite fairly, many will say that this is a gimmick because he can't, in which case it just proves his point that Brown does not have the support of the country in pushing this law through.
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A Westminster-centric analysis of the fall-out from this illustrates how governments become cloth eared, journalists sucked in and the electorate becomes dis-engaged.
Never mind that there's growing unease about the constant erosion of civil liberties in the country, that may sway votes at the next general election; does it represent a split in the Tories?
David Davis has done a good thing and been rubbished by Labour lieutenants in terms that show they haven't the slightest regard for our rapidly disappearing freedoms, it's just grist to the Westminster political advantage mill.
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Nick,
Your commentary on this is very confusing.
A Shadow Home Secretary resigns out of principle to force a by-election. Not a small issue but an issue which was only won by a PM with a large commons majority by "convincing" the DUP members in Parliament to support him. (And a good deal more coercion too - I am sure you know better than most)
And your reporting of this? A split and return of confusion for the Tory leadership. You are an intelligent man, Nick, can you not see why you look like a labour party sycophant?
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They {professional politicians} calculate everything ... and in this case, according to the interview, David Cameron told Davies that this was 'risky'.
I got the impression that Cameron did'nt think it was worth it.
For Davies, it was obviously the cumalative effect of the 'surveillance society', which he felt strongly about, with the 42 day issue as the final straw.
It is so rare to see a politician stand by his personal principles that this comes as a bit of a shock.
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I have my doubts about this as a strategy but you have to admire the man. We should all remember that:
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
As true now as when Ben Franklin penned it 250 years ago.
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Awesome
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I admire Davis' stand greatly, you could be cynical about it but I honestly think he's simply a freedom-loving person who's had enough of Brown attacking our freedoms and losing all our data; he's saying that another 2 years is too long to wait and that he wants some kind of public vote on those kind of issues so that people can tell Brown what they think.
I think it's an excellent move; I'm 100% behind him, and my opinion of the tories has sky-rocketed because of it; it's so refreshing to see someone make a stand like that.
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Nick
Why does this create " - - a very dangerous time for David Cameron." ??
Inconvenient? Could be.
A distraction? For sure.
Very dangerous? How so? What is the worst that could happen?
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I am shocked by this move by David Davies.
However, hats off to a man of principal who, one of the few left (from either side of the House) who is willing to put his job on the line for what he believes to be right!
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While I agree with David Davis's emotive comments on the issue of 42 days and the erosion of traditional liberties I cannot see how the pantomime and expense of this resignation and by-election stunt is justified. Challenge the argument in parliament and promise to reverse the mistake in your manifesto, not walk away in disgust only to walk back again to the same travesty of a democratic process! I hope people realise that such large government majorities are responsible for the railroading of ideas through parliament without proper debate and scrutiny, that the process of elections by first past the post is biased and broken and needs reform, that only when we adopt a PR system that counts the vote and views of all will we have a parliament that will consult and represent us. David Davis and the Conservatives are not principled, they're playing politics; Nick Clegg should making these arguments and selecting a strong candidate to fight Davis' seat on the basis that we are the true torchbearers for liberty and British rights, a party of principles and the long term, not theatre and short term popularity.
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I'm not convinced that David Davis' constituents care very much about the erosion of civil liberties.
They might get mixed messages from the Conservative Party though and wonder at Davis' indignation at the proliferation of CCTV cameras, DNA databases and the arrangements for investigating suspected terrorists.
Isn't this what the Old Labour Party used to do (Hain, Boetang, Mayor Ken and all those trainee labour MPs like Harman in the National Council for Civil Liberties?).
Conservatives as the Champions of Civil Liberties at this late stage?
Strange stunt if ever I saw one.... but let's see whether the electors are interested. Should be fascinating! (Not!!)
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QueryAlex_B wrote:
"A Noble deed? Rubbish, he'll get safely re-elected but cost the British taxpayer dosh".
A desperate labour supporter face down in the water if ever there was one, ha ha ha
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You are spot on Nick, Davies may come out of this well but the Tories certainly will not.
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What risk? Davis has a decent majority, and without the Lib Dems (especially post Crewe) will increase it. The tories can then claim that the vote is a vote against the 42 day rule and a vote of no confidence in the government, when it's actually just a normal by-election result.
Cameron may not want to back Davis openly, as that would confirm the above, but I bet he's laughing inside.
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Query_AlexB: whatever the cost of the by-election it won't be one ten-thousandth of the cost of the bribes Brown has had to promise to get this repulsive measure through.
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What a shocking waste of public money. I hope the Labour party follows the Lib Dems and has nothing to do with this shammy stunt. There is no bravery to run in a safe seat agaimnst an unpopular governement.
Can we not charge the waste of our cash to Mr Davies or to the Tory party?
Still, at least we will be able to use the "Davies test" on any Tory who is opposing something - "Are you going to resign as an MP over it? - No? - Then you clearly don't feel that bothered!"
Perhaps they should all resign on the EU referendum (the Lib Dems could not stand aside on that one, so there would be a real contest)- after all, isn't that principle too!
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why is it that the BBC and most media outlets saying that the british public agree with the 42 day terror bill?
personally i have not spoken to anyone who agrees with it.
I,m not a lover of David Davis or the conservatives but i think the general public are starting to understand what the bill is about now, and i think your find he has the Majority of support behind him.
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In focussing this blog on the dangers to David Cameron and the Conservative Party, Nick Robinson gives the clear impression that he is stuck in exactly the same westminster bubble that so many other journalists and politicians inhabit. For once, can we not forget about party politics, and focus on the reality of the situation, which is that this is a personal decision is, taken in the light of fast-disappearing liberties. Party politics is irrelevant in this context, and I wish Mr Davis well in his actions.
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jimbrant #22
The point is to see how many more than 22696 votes he gets this time; how many of those 6033 Labour votes will he pick up (never mind the Lib Dems) because of his principled stand?
Well done to David Davis for standing up for what he believes in, not what he's told to support.
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Why so negative Nick?
This is unprecedented, but it should be seen in the context of what happened in Parliament yesterday. We ended up with a poorly drafted Bill being sent to the Lords.
This is a man taking a stand on a point of personal principle. He is entitled to do that without the internal party analysis.
Whilst Labour may not be particularly concerned about 42 days remaining in the media, they are concerned about accusations of being authoritarian generally. There is a real dispute here and it would be good to focus on that.
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Sorry Nick, but having seen the interviews etc with David Davis, David Cameron, Caroline Flint and Tony McNulty - I think you have got this one wrong!
Perhaps and the two Labour ministers mentioned above would not recognise a principled action if it hit you round the face.
Whilst it is a strange move, and what it's outcome may achieve is unclear - David Davis clearly thinks that this issue is too important to be left to politicians to decide in the manner of last nights vote. Granted it was a vote the government won, but the apparent horse trading that went on to achieve it is an insult to democracy in my opinion.
Perhaps, Caroline Flint or Tony MucNulty could take a similar principled stand on this issue - let them resign their seats. Why not, they seem to have plenty to say for themselves on the matter?
Or maybe Gordon Brown could take a principled stand - if his moral compass has such a direction - and let us all have a say on whether we want to be governed in this manner.
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Well, Nick, you may try to spin this as a split, but Cameron is fully supportive of this brave and principled decision.
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How can you possibly know that? I'm not suggesting that the BBC are always right but I think that their political correspondent probably has more of an idea than most of us.
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When I read about Mr Davis, I thought it worth posting a comment on HYS, saying first how much I admired him and second speculating that the BBC would a) poor scorn on him an b) say how much trouble this would be for the Tories.
Having expressed my thoughts I happened to go to to Nick Robinson's link, and of course immediately discovered that he was way ahead of me.
My advice to Mr Robinson is to tender his own resignation as de facto Labour member for Shepherds Bush, and actually think about what Mr Davis has done and why. You never know Nick you might actually become a better reporter.
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I see Labour are calling Davis' resignation as a waste of public money.
Ha
Ha
Ha
Ha
Ha
The cheek of it. From a Labour "We've just blown 3 billion on the never never to try and bribe a bye-election" spokesperson
I see that the Arch Tory supporter Nick Robinson is now being pillored as being an Arch Labour supporter Nick Robinson.
I think its more of an Arch Neutral Nick Robinson
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At last! A politician voicing concerns that I have had for a long time now. Hopefully his actions will stimulate a debate on the gradual erosion of our civil liberties and make people think carefully about what we could so easily lose. This is not about 42 days or being hard/soft on terrorism, it is about what sort of society we want to live in. I believe he has acted out of principle and he has certainly shaken up British politics - for a while at least.
After yesterday's shameful and sordid vote, those MPs who allowed themselves to be bought off or who voted robotically on party lines should be ashamed. We need more politicians of principle like David Davis.
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Nick,
I like you but this time you have it wrong. This IS a point of principle and you should be rejoicing not belittling his stand as an internal row or political misjudgement. If I did not know better I would be tempted to doubt your neutral position on this one. Surely you do not side with those who would take away my freedoms to disagree with you? Please report this resignation accurately without Labour spin. Thanks a lot.
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Nick - could you be any more pro-Labour? More BBC ultra-left bias - (I suspect even this comment will be removed)
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I've just seen Clare Short MP on the News agreeing with David Davis on many of his issues.
Strange days indeed !!!!
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This is a silver lining for Cameron - to have one of his only possible political rivals removed from the Shadow Cabinet is a godsend.
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Having read some of the political quotes am I the only one who think the like of Blears, Hill and co should be first against the wall. Regardless of whether he wins his seat Davis has almost certainly consigned himself to the backbenches for the foreseeable future - that is principle over career. To portay such a stand on such a crucial issue in terms of party political advantage is nauseating. They just don't have a clue.
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Surely the huge risk to the Conservatives is that when (given the non LD participation it surely can only be when) DD wins, it will be all but impossible for the Conservatives not to commit to reversing the 42 days (assuming it ever gets into law).
Then, come the next General Election, if there should - heaven forbid - be some sort of terrorist outrage, Labour will (however unjustifiably) be able to paint itself as the party that is prepared to be tough, whilst the Conservatives aren't.
My guess is that it's the risk of something like this that makes DC run away from any firm commitment, but DD looks likely to force his hand.
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It is so rare these days for a politican to be principled about anything that it is no surprise you (Nick) and the hard bitten shameles Labour MP's interviewed have to try to put a spin on the situation. That awful Minister McNulty, the one that said Boris Johnson had no chance of becoming London Mayor, made as much political capital as he could cram-in in a few short minutes. He was just venemous and spiteful, as was Caroline Flint. If you want to know what is wrong with this country just look at the grey, charmless, hard bitten, un-principled and incompetent New Labour Ministers. i.e. McNulty, Flint, Harman, Blears, Jowell to name but a few. These people are control freaks and they will not rest until we are all the same grey, charmless people like themselves. Of course we, the electorate will be grey, charmless and broke. The politicans will be grey charmless and rich.
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What would happen if the whole of the Tory and Lib Dem front bench resigned as MPs. Could it force a general election?
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BBC bias at its best! The BBC could not be more transparent in its true role as a mouthpiece for the establishment. Nick Robinson's assessment was just plain ridiculous.
I have never in all my life smiled, nodded and applauded at a political statement. And that it should come from David Davis of all people!
At last, at last, AT LAST!
Well done Sir! You have single handedly returned politics to what it should be.
If the BBC will kindly keep their commentary on the fringes of neutral, and doesn't try leading thought instead of reflecting it, we, the lowly chickens, horses and cows, may be about to take the farm back from the pigs.
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It must be a cold, cold day in hell, for I find myself backing, 100% and without reservation, a Tory. And one of their more objectionable specimens at that.
All power to his elbow, and nuts to those who will brand me a Tory fellow traveller for saying so.
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Spinnig this as a problem for Cameron is ridiclous how could you fall for such twaddle?
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I think you've badly misjudged the situation arguing this is bad for Cameron and the Tories. If Davis had resigned in this way over another issue, say Europe or Immigration, it would be a terrible setback for the party. But instead his Home Secretary is taking an undeniably brave stand on an issue which is important to many voters who may never have considered voting Tory before.
In short, this could be the Conservative Party's Clause 4 moment.
So if Cameron is privately angry, perhaps it is because it won't be him who will be getting the credit for it, if it works. On the other hand, if Davis DOES lose, there will be very little political ramification for Cameron as Davis will be written off
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Without precedent? 17th December 1985?
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A comment being added every minute... so fast infact the moderators cannot keep up... poor dears.
A politican literally putting his job on the line is to be applauded, especially when it is to make a stand for civil liberties.
That the Labour front bench want to spin this as Tory disunity is unsurprising.
That you, Nick, want to spin this as Tory disunity is disappointing.. simply because so far the only words from Camaron have been ones support for Mr Davis's principalled stand.
As Lib Dem supporter I'm glad we wont be putting up a candidate against him as a way of showing our support.
Two more years of Browns 'clunking fist' and the Lib Dems will be HM's Offical Oppostion to HM's Tory Government ...circa May 2010.
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Lets see if a labour 'rebel' resigns too.....especially in a seat they can lose....
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Nick....just look at all the comments on your blog and others....fantastic support for David Davis. You political commentators cannot read what the general public think of the majority of politicians. We are fed up with their weasel words...."no referendum as this is a constitutional treaty"....this island has been moving towards a police state for years...worse we now have council appointed officials who give out fines. DVLA sell our personal details to cowboy car clampers..etc etc etc. The Tories will even further extend their poll lead after this action by DD. Nick you need to get a grip and stop spouting the words of comrade Brown's party....
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I think you called this one wrong, Mr Robinson
Davis has seized the Queen's Colour and will lead a charge against the pernicious 42 days
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Nick,
You are the only man in the UK who can misread the feeling of the UK public better than Gordon Brown.
I think you need to get out of Westminster a bit more often and remember you are reporting to "us" - the general public and the electorate - not merely the inhabitants of Westminster.
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Well done David Davis !
Perhaps all MPs who feel the same way, should resign and stand for re-election.
At least that way it would trigger a General By-Election...
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Quite as to how you come to the conclusion that this is "it's a very dangerous time for David Cameron indeed." baffles me.
This is infact the complete opposite and that statement should be applied to Gordon Brown.
Brown must have been grinning tohimself about how he managed to bribe this piece of legislation through the commons and getting plaudits from the Murdoch media machine, but this action by Mr Davis brings sharply into focus exactly why it was wrong and that somebody needs to make a stand.
This is what real principles and moral compass is Nick.
Not the snivveling little worm that is Brown who claims as such but often goes against such and u-turns more times than a driving instructor.
I hope people see the stark contrast between Mr Davies putting his money where his mouth is and putting his career on the line standing up for his beliefs compared to Brown who offers back-handers in order to get is way or simply cowers in the corner hoping it will all go away or eventually is forced to completely go against his so called 'moral compass.
I challenge anybody on here to disagree with a single word spoken by Mr Davis's statement.
It was a damning verdict of the creeping police state that Labour has created with Brown seeking to ever expand.
We the people have had enough and it is about time somebody made a stand.
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My first thought was that this might have been 'principled', but on more mature consideration I think not. It would have been principled if he might have lost his seat, but really there is absolutely no chance of that. So it seems to me to be just a bit of political theatre. Labour should simply refuse to oblige him in playing along with his stunt. The 42 day issue is too serious for this sort of playground 'dare'.
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I really think you're out on this one, Nick.
David Davis should be applauded and the Conservatives have just gone up in my estimation.
Having also read some of the comments made by Labour MPs regarding Davis's resignation, they're wrong and using cheap shots to try and deflect the real issue.
I would bet against seeing something even resembling principle coming from our government, no, won't happen.
They should talk to their rebels - they'd learn a thing or two.
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Running a by election on principle of defending freedom and liberty for all law abiding people, will not cost anywhere near as much as Brown squandered throwing away an election because he was too cowardly to fight it!
Labour thinking that defending liberty, freedom and the rights of law abiding individuals to remain free from unnecessary interference from an overbearing intrusive state is a gimmick? Tells you everything you need to know about labour.
Only today we have yet another story of a man that was stripped, thrown in a prison cell, having his DNA taken and stored permanently, for the non crime of.... get this....falling off his couch laughing at the TV.
The police state can abuse anyone to meet their targets and this must STOP!
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This is a master-stroke by David Davis.
At a stroke he's turned the coverage of the 42 day detention 'victory' for the government to a story about the opposition to it. He's completely denied the government of it's moment in the spotlight and yet again the Tory position takes centre stage.
Well done too to the Lib Dems who have recognised the singular importance of this issue and are allowing Davis the best opportunity to slaughter this inept government.
Davis shows himself to be a man of the utmost sincerity and honour, unlike the odious and loathsome Blears who is left with nothing except playground snearing to fall back on.
Privately Brown must be chewing the table in rage. No matter what he does it all goes down the tubes for him, doesn't it? Hopefully he'll get flushed away pretty soon.
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David Davis' resignation is not necessarily damaging to David Cameron. I am a life long labour supporter and am astounded by the erosion of our freedoms under the Labour Government. I am considering voting Tory for the first time in my life IF David Cameron has MPs like David Davis on his team. We need principled MPs to lead our country. The losses to our hard fought freedoms due to the fear of terrorism are unacceptable. I had a close call on 7/7 and would risk that again rather than lose any of the freedoms that make our country great.
David Davis - well done!!
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Nick, I have to disagree with you on this.
I support David Davis's stand full-throatedly. The issues he's addressing are very real and very much ignored up until now. The slow eradication of our freedoms strikes at the very core of our values as a nation, and I admire Davis's effort. Is this move truly so alien that even a veteran political commentator such as yourself can't see it in any other light that just a partisan split?
David Davis has shown his colours today as a man of principle willing to take a stand on a moral issue he believes in, rather than the usual political spin-doctoring we have come to expect, but not want, from Parliament. Good for him, and stuff the politics.
He's just won my vote for the election.
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Come on mods - get a move on 32 messages to be approved. Are you waiting to get to the magic 42?
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I think Nick Robinson should count to 1000 before he blogs anything.
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Nick, I actually think it is a very clever political move and seizes the headlines back from Gordon Brown. It is almost akin to a storyline from the West Wing, an equal measure of statesmanship and theatricality
The problem for David Cameron is that in the future others may be tempted to take this un-orthodox ploy on other issues. A future conservative administration could get into very choppy waters over a contentious european vote. Imagine what would have happened to the Major government if one of the numerous euro-rebels taken this action.
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Why is it a dangerous time for Cameron? Davis' relection is assured. He'll be welcomed back into the cabinet as a hero. I think you have misjudged just how popular this move by Davis will be. Yesterday we had stories of MPs selling out. Today we have a story of an MP with such conviction he is willing to lay his job on the line for it.
I also think that youy and the BBC are massively overstatign the support for 42 day on the basis of the Telegraph YouGov Poll.
Davis has drawn the criteria for the election - Nothing to do with Road tax, Brown, 10p tax rates - this is a by election on 42 days, plan and simple, and if Davis wins, then he has a clear indication that the 42 extention is not as popular, as Brown, and the BBC seem to think it is.
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Nick is quite right in his speculation and Nick is also well informed that the Tories stand with regards to the 42 days, is David Davis doing and not Cameron's.
Reason being, that Cameron was in favour of the 42 days, but David Davies and the rest of the extreme right of the Tory party were dead against him.
To save himself from embarrassment, Cameron bowed to the majority in his party and changed his music, but did not campaign enough to convince more MPs to vote against.
The understanding between Cameron and the other half of the party was that if they want to defeat the Govt. they will have to do the dirty work themselves!
What would David Davies do if there are no contestants in this so called by-election? Resign again? PR on it?s own does not put bread on the table. Have a nice day Nick.
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Brown is really going to have his work cut out.
Either he puts someone up to argue the case for 42 days in the by-election and get thumped into the floor, or they don't contest it and be seen not to have the courage of their convictions.
The voters of Davis's constituancy should turn out in record numbers to support Davis' stand. Then there will be no way that Labour can argue that we don't want this illiberal and unnecessary law.
The whole thing was so pointless. It has been evident for ages now that no-one wanted the increase, but Brown decided that it would be worse to back down then to win an unpopular vote.
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I used to respect your reports even if not always agreeing with them but this swallowing of labour spin hook line and sinker takes me aback more than the announcement.
I have become more than a little jaded about politics in this country lately and seriously considered moving to a country that does not insist on watching every move its citizens make. Maybe there is yet hope though if we have a party containing MP's prepared to make such an astonishing stand against this creeping cancer.
I wil certainly watch this with interest. Contrary to your attempts to portray it as a Tory split I think they will serve to rip the debate out of labours hand and put it firmly into the conservatives
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This is both principled and very clever politically. Last summer Brown soared into a lead when not in Parliament. Now he will have to fight a single issue by-election which he will certainly lose as the LibDems are supporting the Tories. If Brown does not fight it, it will go alongside his bottling the election and refusing to honour his referendum pledge as a sign he is fearful of public opinion. Davis will use his campaignto explain about the erosion of freedoms and esp the 42 day rule which polls say the public supports - they won't after it is correctly spelt out to them that it is they, not some dodgy foreigners, that are losing their ancient freedoms and liberties.
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GB has shown that he is prepared to manipulate and bribe his way to political victory.
Who is to say that come close to an election he wouldn't manipulate the electorate by allowing some small terrorsist threat to materialise or by banging up some undesirables to make himself look tough. It is only a short step from what GB achieved yesterday, bribery to win, to what Mugabe is doing in Zim, starvation to win.....
All kudos to DD, he has shown himself to be a man of principle and all the "Labour 'til I die" posters are clutching at straws about a "waste of money". Which I think coming from Labour is hypocrisy of the largest magnitude considering the Billions you have thrown away over the last 10 years.
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When the value of yesterday's horse trading is revealed ... MOD receipts going directly back to NI for example ...any shred of legitimacy that Brown thought he had will have gone.
Votes bought to enact a reduction in habeous corpus and a repeated denial of such bribery will see Labour demolished in the same way the old LIberal party was in the inter war years.
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I can't see that this will ultimately damage the Tories or Davis. At the moment it seems like a bizarre, needless triggering of a contest with a foregone conclusion.
But consider: Labour have yet to make their move. If they put up a candidate, that person must respond to all Davis' accusations about the erosion of civil liberties under Labour. If that candidate defends all of the government's measures, and is defeated, that's fine for the Tories.
If the candidate doesn't take the party line and doesn't defend all of the measures, that's Labour disunity and fine for the Tories.
If Labour decide not to field a candidate, they look as if they're not even willing to defend their own policies, which is also fine (and possibly best of all) for the Tories.
It's definitely a stunt, but not that likely to backfire, surely?
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Is this the start of a new wave of resignations every time a decision goes against an MP in parliament?
A meaningless gimmick. Perhaps David Davis should be asked to pay for the cost of the by-election and we'll see how strong his principles are then!!!
The fact Cameron has refused to say the decision would be reversed if the Tories win the next election may have something to do with it.
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I feel elated. A politician acting on principle. Whatever next?
Watching and listening to the BBC rolling out a series of Labour MPs who utter almost the same words makes me think they are worried, and quite rightly.
This resignation can only be good for politics as a whole. Forget 42 days. Its just a symptom of control. Erosion of our liberties, increased surveillance, more and more draconian laws, even weighing rubbish bins. These continue to weigh heavier and heavier on us all.
I also agree about Nick's and the BBC's coverage in general. It is all about looking for splits.
This resignation isn't just about politics, this is about us as a nation, our culture and our identity. Its about bringing a subject that most of us feel every day to the fore.
Those (I mean political journalists and politicians) who make it party political are simply out of touch with the general public.
As for the BBC coverage, a true case of
"Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story."
More balance please.
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Why 42 days? Why not 60,70, 90. I can envision a scenario when the police might take longer to go through multiple encrypted hard drives as part of a fishing trip/investigation. To be safe, lets make it indefinite, that should cover all eventualities nicely. This is terrorism after all, liberties must come second to public safety.
I hope DD's stance brings the ludicrousness of this argument to the fore and makes people realise that there is a balance here to be struck and that the current Labour leadership just doesnt get it. Perhaps there will be an argument in this bielection and labour will win it. I think this will reflect badly on a level of paranoia and fear that has been created in this country. Frightened people can do cruel things to minorities in the name of public safety.
I dont know anyone injured by terrorism, I do know 4 children and several friends killed in road accidents in this country. If public safety is the issue, why not ban all people from driving, it kills and injures far more people...
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Weird ? A stunt ? Those who talk like this have forgotten what politics is actually for.
Didn't Gladstone do something this ? And Nye Bevan ? I seem to recall Churchill did something similar. This is a group to which anyone would be proud to belong.
It is a supremely important issue and all you can talk about is the effect it might have on David Cameron. As for Blunkett, Flint, Blears etc. What pigmies !
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How typical that the BBC should see this as a stunt and be unable to comprehend a matter of principle.
You've spent too long in the Westminster bubble Nick, try extracting yourself for a few days and talking to real people, and by that I do not mean the folks at Labour HQ who would appear to be using you as a glove puppet at the moment.
Well done David Davis. Where do I sign up to help with the campaign?
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Will Derek Conway be running his campaign this time, and sourcing funding again?
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I'm not sure I agree that this is dangerous for David Cameron.
I'm not an expert but the way I see it is that in all likelihood David Davis will win a contested by-election which will mean the Tories can claim to have won the argument as proven at the poll's and he goes back to the opposition front bench.
Or......
with the Lib Dems not standing a candidate, Labour could decide not to contest the seat also, which would also give ammunition to the Tories to claim PM Brown runs scared of the electorate on any subject because he doesn't seem able to win one:-
General Election
Lisbon Treaty Referendum
42 Day By-Election campaign
Either way David Davis comes across as principled man who is prepared to risk his career for his beliefs.
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Moving on to tomorrow, I'll be interested to see what the newspapers make of this.
My best guess is that David Davis will get support everywhere, particularly in the tabloids, and possibly even in the Guardian.
This will be popular with people who hate the nanny state and increasing government interference with our day-to-day lives. That is most of the population.
I hope even Labour supporters can see this.
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I am personally opposed to the extension to 42 days and am disgusted that more Labour backbenchers did not rebel over it.
However I am even more disgusted by the dishonesty of the Tories blustering about the issue, while refusing to give a commitment to repeal it if elected.
Davis's gesture is a frivolous diversion which will prove NOTHING. I hope the Labour Party will have the gumption to join with the LibDems and say it will not be drawn into that kind of waste of public money and time and not bother to field a candidate. Let Davis posture away on his own for his two-faced party.
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Surely no-one believes the Cameron D line that Shadow Home Affairs portfolio couldn't be minded by Davies' team for a month or so?
He has sacked Davies, ministers have been appointed from outside the Commons and fought an election to Parliament while holding their post before now.
It s the Tory media spin machine which has presented this contrary to all logic and reason, truth.
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Please don't fall into the trap of thinking that a short opinion poll solves everything. The fact is that most people are in favour of 42 days if it's seen as something that will happen to other people.
If instead they are asked if they would mind if they or their mother/daughter/son etc was locked up for 42 days without knowledge of any change against them and years of suspicion to follow they would of course oppose it - that is the lesson of Northern Ireland!
David Davies is going to be putting this message out - the impact will be far stronger on the Labour control freaks and technocrats who have brought us to this position than the Opposition. Stop trying to cosy up to the Government!
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When I first heard the news, I immediately thought another by-election, another nail in the coffin for Labour.
I'm wondering how Nick has come to another conclusion? Has the Labour spin got to him?
I just can't see how Labour can come out of this looking good.
Anyway, it's a good time for the Conservatives to bury some bad news as it looks like the media is making a mountain out of a molehill with this non-story.
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Dare Labour put up a candidate?
Labour haven't ben very fortunate in by-elections thus far. Another victory for the Conservatives just might be the straw that broke the camel's back - and Gordon's numbered days might be falling by the minute.
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Nick - you've totally misread the public mood on this one (as demonstrated by this blog for one). Perhaps you ought to get out [of the Westminster Village] more... ;-)
QueryAlex_B @10 wrote: "Anyone know just how much running an unneeded by-election will cost the British public?"
The only reason we are having an 'unneeded' by-election is because Gordon Brown is too scared to give us the 'needed' one we are demanding.
jimbrant @22 asks: "It may be principled, but I can't for the life of me see what he can achieve."
The answer is that it will keep the spotlight on this governments authoritarian tendencies: not just 42 days, but also ID cards, the National DNA Database, erosion of trial by jury, etc.
Finally, thank you David Davis.
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I hope Gordon Brown is watching because what David Davis did was raw courage.
The words political and hero are really only used together once in a generation. Well, David Davis is a political hero.
Good on him. I wish him well, he perfectly
summed up how so many of us feel. The vote was a succession of grubby deals and Brown politicking as usual.
Davis is absolutely right to call his bluff about this bill being 'popular'.
As for a 'Tory split', they didn't have 30+ rebels voting against the Bill.
Nick, think for the yourself and stop spinning you are worse at it than this shower of a 'Government'.
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Is there a more hateful politician than that Flint person. I saw her on Question Time a few months back and she came across as the type of person that most people would try to avoid. I hope Labour keep rolling her out at every opportunity as it will do teh Tories the world of good. I just saw her now and she came across as a spiteful, morality free zone. Way ahead of Blears, Hewitt and Harman. Come on Ms. Flint keep up the good work. David is counting on you.
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42..41..40.....28..27.....48hrs
Come on, an objection on "principle" means opposing ANY detention without charge, not disagreeing with an arbitrary point on the continuum. Throw in a ragbag of general discontent with the nature of the 21st Century technology driven market society which he otherwise appears to support and you have a simple political stunt. I wonder if he uses a Tesco Clubcard...
Labour, don't contest it.
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Quietzapple @98 asks: "Will Derek Conway be running his campaign this time, and sourcing funding again?"
Two can play your childish game. Besides, surely people who live in glass houses funded by the likes of Lord Levy, administered by the likes of Jack "I know nothing" Dromey shouldn't cast stones....
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Nick
I'm right with #30 / @monkeybot500 and #31 / @clickem.
I would very much like to see DD win this argument, and make people like you think again. I agree with others on here when they suggest you're insulated from reality, in the Westminster Village.
Watching your piece for the news, and also your interview with DD, I got the impression you thought he'd lost his marbles, and I wasn't impressed.
Gordon Brown and the Labour spin doctors have won the vote, but I am outraged that our Civil Liberties are being played with in this manner - for base political motives.
Mucking up the Economy (and everything else) I can just about make do with, but this is turning into a defining moment.
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Nick,
Again you have been shown your true Labour colours, your preference for the Labour party is unrelenting.
I find DD a noble man and one of principle, perhaps you Nick should report on how the public is dissatisfied with the Labour party rather than placing a positive spin.
Please ensure that next time there is a balance in your reporting.
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If I were cynical I would say that Nick Robinson's lunchtime report demonstrated once and for all, that he is a New Labour mouthpiece.
But I am not cynical. It is just that he has spent so long listening to New Labour spin and lies, he cannot imagine anyone doing anything for other than for the basest reasons.
Maybe his evening reports will be a little more balanced, but I doubt it.
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Thank goodness David Davis has stood up to this increasingly sinister government.
I had the pleasure of walking with him on the Coast-to-Coast route a few years ago. I thought then that he seemed a decent human being... for a politician.
I hope we can recognise an honest and principled act when we see one, rather than cynically try to calculate what's in it for him.
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Cameron D looks shocked, it was a hoot watching him on TV try to cope with the guy complaining about some health service issue and French medicine (as far as I followed it).
He will need John major's advice on how to cope with what major used to call "bastards."
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I keep looking back at this blog to see if Nick Robinson has published a more considered piece, as this knee-jerk reaction is misjudged.
Bravo David Davis. Labour are in danger (again) on this one - you should be asking the likes of Blears if they will be contesting the by-election not reproducing their spin.
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I have never voted Tory in my life.
But thank goodness there is one elected vertibrate in Westminster that is willing to stand up for our hard-won collective rights.
I cannot think of a more illiberal administration in the last 150 years than that of Labour since 1997.
Whenever it has been presented with a problem, New Labour has converted it into a challenge to its authority (passed off as a challenge to us and 'the State'), that can only be overcome by reducing our freedoms and rights.
During my life, I have found most people are 'good', or at least neutral in their response to such challenges - not 'bad'. Therefore, the solution for Government is not to reduce the liberties of the majority in addressing challenges - assuming us to be 'bad' - but to enlist the our support in overcoming these common problems. After all, despite what someone 'blue' once said - "there is such a thing as society".
This requires political leadership and courage, something that has been in desperately lacking in all parties in the last quarter century or more.
So, if David Davis' stand is the first febrile sign of a positive change in the Westminster Village, then more power to him!
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Nick,
If you have read the majority of blogs following your earlier report today you must by now realise that you have misjudged the mood of the country and got this completely wrong. Most people (whether they like him personally or not) admire David Davis's stand and feel that he is shining a light on a real problem in Britain today. Cameron is supporting him and the Conservatives will benefit from this corageous action.
I have never understood why you have been such an ardent apologist for Gordon Brown and his government since he stepped into Downing Street. I suggest it would be a good career move to become more objective in your reporting.
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It is popular with all who think the Tory Party is run by loonies who have no judgement for certain.
The Guardian and the BBC take an anti HMG line pretty much permanently, and organs of the tory media will be happy to bang on about councils "snoping" to try and ensure their policies re school intakes are met, that anyone should be allowed to park wherever they want, and speed with impunity.
Liberfascism we call it.
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Well Nick, it's now very clear that hardly anyone thinks this is at all a problem for Cameron, despite Labour's attempts to spin it that way.
It just adds up to another crushing defeat for Brown, and takes away from the Government's Commons victory.
Perhaps now is the time for another posting reflecting this, Nick.
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I know you wrote this post very early on, just as the news broke. But why, I insist, do all of your posts follow the Labour spin line. The PM blog is far more accurate and impartial - what is going on with Nick Robison?
I can't see how this is devastating for Cameron, surely it's more devastating Brown. If he loses the by-election, when it is only being fought on the 42 days case, then it shows Brown is not truly listening to the public.
I return Nick to my first subject; are you just a Labour spin doctor?
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Looking at the comical side of this. For years Davis called the likes of Skinner and Claire Short the "Looney Left" now they are stable mates.
Strange bed-fellows indeed.
What a howler!
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As before these blogs will not permit truthful opinion about Nick Robinson, the Daily Telegraph does to its credit.
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5:31 pm on 12 Jun 2008, shellingout
The Tories gain of Crewe and Nantwich, of which the deceased MP said "It is a tory seat," was their first gain since 1988 I believe.
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Of course it is pure political theatre, but it is hardly the first ever example of that. It also doesn?t mean that it is not a politically astute move. For all his experience in the House, Brown has consistently shown a staggering lack of political intelligence since becoming PM, and David Davis?s move merely highlights this.
First, and perhaps most gallingly for the Labour party, it wrests control of the debate on 42 days away from them and back into the hands of the Conservatives. The essential question to ask is: what would Brown least want to happen? Having squeaked the vote through on a wafer thin majority, surely he would want to be able to settle the issue down and move on. A by-election on a single issue that Brown was only just able to get through will ensure that the subject drags on and on in the public eye and in the media for at least another month. Losing control of the pace and nature of any debate is something that Labour is terrified of.
Second, it backs Brown into a horrible corner. How can he possibly countenance not contesting the by-election, publicly opting out of any debate on this issue? Whether or not Labour feels this is a monumental waste of time and money is irrelevant ? what matters in politics is how these issues play with the electorate. To publicly refuse to defend one?s own policy is political suicide. And whatever the rights and wrongs of the 42 days, Davis?s actions will be viewed by a lot of people as unusually attractive for a politician.
Is it evidence of a split at the top of the Conservative party? Perhaps ? we don?t have enough information to judge that, and there has in any case been no public statement to suggest such a split. But that is almost beside the point. The general public outside Westminster will not be half as interested in that as in the apparent stand by one man in favour of civil liberties.
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Cameron "Must" be furious, Tories in division, dangerous ground, un-necessary bi-election, public broadly support 42 days.
No mention of impressive political stand, noble cause, taking a stand against the nanny state. Protecting the public from further intrusion by a heavy handed government...
Nick, you are a political animal, used to spin due to this labour government so I can forgive some of your cynical views on other subjects.
But sometimes... just sometimes, there isnt anything more happening then someone standing up to be counted and pinning their colours to the mast.
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Nick
Imagine a by election in which David Davis is arguing about the real need for 42 days and questioning the deals the government did with rebel backbenchers to win the vote. Not something the Labour party wants to focus on.
There may be some truth to the Davis/Cameron split but this does not bode well for the Labour party either. What is the upside for them - that they are remembered as the party promoting detention for 42 days?
On balance Davis will come out of this well but be consigned to the backbenches as a man of principle.
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Hardly unprecedented at all in British politics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_by-elections%2C_1986
In 1986 the entire Ulster Unionist Party at Westminster resigned their seats over the imposition of the Anglo-Irish agreement so they could recontest them at by-elections.
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Simple answer for Labour: put no-one up and it will backfire on Davis. With no mainstream by-election opponent he'll just look stupid. Maverick Davis has made Cameron look stupid and out of control of his shadow cabinet. What a ridiculous way to hand the initiative back to Labour.
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Well the press is now lining up against Davis. They think he has taken leave of his senses as does a lot of his colleagues.
They cannot believe what he has done.
Or see the point of it, for that matter.
A quite useless gesture that will pu the spotlight back on the 42 days when Cameron wished to douse it.
The front bench say they support him. that is usually political speak for saying " You are on your own my boy"
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I suppose that Labour will not put up a candidate.
They will say that Davies is simply wasting public money.
This means he will 'win' the by-election but it will be a hollow victory.
Maybe Davies has calculated a different strategy to counter this ... but it is risky and it could all end up looking rather pointless.
I place more store in the EU, which in my humble opinion, is the correct place for decisions on the 'length of detention without charge' to be made for all European citizens.
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121 quietzapple
What is "snoping", is it a new electronic surveillance tool?
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The reports of what Brown was up to over this vote left me with exactly the same sour feeling as the Iraq War vote. I presume that had this been a vote in an English Parliament, then it would have been totally destroyed. Liberty is a fundamental principle of British life, and any MP who voted to support this last night should take a very good look at themselves today... I think that the public should wake up and see what this Government have done. It is a disgrace, especially if you take away the other House's ability to force the bill back to the Commons. Well done Mr Davis, we deserve more like you. Nick, you have once more completely mis-judged the reality here. Brown should go now.
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Perhaps Nick would like to sugest to Gordon to bring back hanging as the majority believe in that as well. We have someone who puts our rights ahead of his own political career stop your cynical coments and THINK!
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I can't argue about the merits of this as a political strategy, I am not sure I see the point ... but as a stand of principle I cannot applaud it enough.
Our political system seems to have decayed to the point where all we can do is stand impotently by as this Government destroys every liberty and freedom it can find. If this is what it takes to make a difference I am all for it!
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Labour Ministers and BBC Programmes are using this to badmouth the Tories. Juding from responses on the Internet there are a lot of people who respect his decision as a point of principle - something Ministers and BBC Reporters cannot understand.
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#108 ScepticMax :"The answer is that it will keep the spotlight on this governments authoritarian tendencies"
But surely the fact that the legislation has to go through the Lords will already achieve exactly that objective?
The more I think about it the less I see of principle, and more of political calculation, albeit at the schoolboy level. Davis is not putting his career on the line (unless he has disagreed with Cameron over the issue) because he can't lose. Several (anti-government) contributors have already spelled out the calculation, and have pointed out that in some sense the Tories can gain an advantage whether Labour decide to stand or not - if they stand they can't win, and if they don't they are open to playground taunts of 'frit!'
I hope they don't stand, and make Davis look a bit of a clown.
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Apparently questioning the cost of ensuring 9 DUP votes is reason to be "referred to the moderators" Is that like being sent to the headmaster at school?
I'm sorry Nick but you have got this one really wrong. For much better comment on the situation go read Iain Dale's blog rather than Labour press releases
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Nick,
I'm very disappointed with your and Jo Coburn's comments on this issue. You seem to have got caught up in what the Westminster Village thinks is important.
Neither of you addressed the fundamental issue David Davis is resigning over: the government's assault on British civil liberties. As a former Labour voter, I am appalled by New Labour's policies in this area. In spite of their professed intentions, Gordon Brown and Tony Blair have made our society much less safe by passing so many illiberal laws. Haven't we learnt anything from our mistakes in Northern Ireland?
Kind regards,
Tim Beaumont
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Jimbrant @142 - the HoL will indeed look at '42 Days'. But as I mentioned there are other burning issues that need constant and in-depth public discussion such ID cards, National DNA Database, erosion of trial by jury, etc. etc.
As for New Labour's predicament: one would have thought that there would be plenty of candidates willing to stand up and argue the governments 'principled position' [hah!] - even if they knew they might lose. Not standing would prove the government to be not just cowardly - but unprincipled too. (But then, that's not news, I guess...)
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Claiming principle and being principled are not the same thing, just as the Tory claim to freedom and the family, while kowtowing to bullying business and robbing the wages of the poor to subsidise the leafy subhurbs aren't the same thing. Don't measure what a man says, measure what he does. This is just an empty stunt in a safe seat.
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"Simple answer for Labour: put no-one up and it will backfire on Davis. With no mainstream by-election opponent he'll just look stupid. Maverick Davis has made Cameron look stupid and out of control of his shadow cabinet. What a ridiculous way to hand the initiative back to Labour."
Depends on how many people turn out on voting day.
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@ 142, as you admit, if labour do not stand, then they will be showing themselves to be scared to debate their own record of removing liberties, freedoms and their unrelenting intrusions into every part of our private lives.
I honour David Davis for his principled stance on liberty in general. This is about way more than just 42 days, it is about ALL od our freedom and liberty that millions fought and died in two world wars to defend. LEST WE FORGET!
Principle and conviction are clearly something labour and some members of the political media cannot recognise with a torch and both hands.
We have David Davis fighting an election on principle.
And then we have Gordon Brown, who cowardly ran away from an election for fear of what the electorate may think. That wasted more money than this one by election.
A clear choice. Nick, I don't know who you are trying to convince, but you are way on the wrong side of public opinion on this one.
I suggest you write a more balanced article lest you lose all credibility with the mass majority of the BBC readership.
As I am reminded ever November 11th, we shall remember those who died defending our liberty. You, Nick, should NEVER undermine their sacrifice or their memory.
Well Done David Davis.
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This move seems almost totally illogical to me. It seems to be largely a stunt to hurt New Labour... I can't see any real benefit in this case for Davis other than the moral confirmation that the public don't want 42 days. He quits, and then gets re-elected to conservative immediately... it just seems a remarkably foolish way to campaign for, well, anything.
I agree with 131 - if Labour don't put a candidate up, Davis' move will have done nothing but waste time and money. They should dismiss this as ridiculous.
As ever, though, Jacqui Smith misses the point spectacularly and believes that this points to some kind of ulterior motive on Davis' part. Quite possibly I've missed something, because I can't see how so many intelligent people discuss this as if it were a material issue, but until I'm enlightened, I remain sceptical.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Chuck E Hogwash @146 writes: "the Tory claim to freedom and the family, while kowtowing to bullying business and robbing the wages of the poor to subsidise the leafy subhurbs aren't the same thing. "
Gosh, the inscrutable (well, unintelligible anyway) CEH finally throws out his zen buddhist calm and reverts to standard Old Labour textbook jargon....
Times must be hard.
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Nick - I usually enjoy your report and your blog, but the vast weight of comments so far, including thousands on 'Have your say', mirror my feeling that your initial reaction and follow-ups have been horribly biased.
Not sure if the slant was a considered decision on the part of you or the BBC, or just a result of such deeply ingrained cynicism as can only (somewhat understandably) be developed in your job. If the latter, it might be time to take some time off and allow your soul to soften a little.
Given that you often respond directly to lively streams of comments, I'm left wondering if you have somehow been rendered speechless?
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146
How can you, a NuLabour apologist, accuse the Tories of robbing the poor to pay the rich after the 10p tax debacle? - Surely the most blatant example of the Reverse Robin (Hood) in modern politics.
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Nick,
The BBC is supposed to at least give the impression of unbiased reporting.
Perhaps its time to get a job on the Guardian, as it would suit your reporting style better.
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6:22 pm on 12 Jun 2008, mikepko
snope
intr.v. soped, snop·ing, snopes
To investigate the public affairs of others, especially by prowling about.
n. One who snopes.
[Dutch snoepen, to eat on the sly.]
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153
The tax credits are more than an answer to your question, but I guess you knew that.
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I couldn?t disagree more with what Nick Robinson said on the news at six.
The best way for a politician to gain the public?s respect seems to be to resign on principle. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the politician, it?s difficult not to admire someone who at least gives the impression of risking his/her job on deeply-held principles. Of course, the problem with resigning on principle is that it?s usually preceded by a major falling out between said politician and his/her party.
By resigning after voting WITH the rest of his party and stating it?s due to Labour?s policies, David Davis manages to get that respect whilst staying on the same side as the rest of the Tories. Essentially, he gets all the benefits of resigning on principle without any of the drawbacks. Okay, so David Cameron used another politician-speak line to suggest he isn?t too happy with Mr. Davis?s decision but surely that?s nothing more than a smokescreen to hide a brilliantly thought-out strategy.
Today Mr. Davis moved onto the political A-list; by appearing to value his morals above all else he?s grabbed all the headlines and come across as a man of political courage and conviction ? something the voters will especially value following recent sleaze allegations and Mr. Brown?s desperate horse-trading to win Wednesday?s vote. When he wins the by-election Mr. Davis will inevitably have to spend some time on the back benches but this profile-raising stunt should ensure he?s never far from the public eye, cementing a reputation as a politician people can believe. When the May 2010 election comes along it will Mr. Davis will be publicly promised prominent cabinet position if the Tories win, allowing the party to offer the electorate a well-liked political heavyweight. Indeed, one of the recent criticisms of the Labour party (and the Conservatives, although George Osborne?s inheritance tax speech last year took some of the heat off them) is that the cabinet lacks the big names it had when Tony Blair became Prime Minister.
Furthermore, Mr. Davis? stunt means the 42 day row will never quite disappear until Gordon Brown does. It becomes a much bigger news story and the resignation becomes a stick to beat the current cabinet with ? a ?we?re more principled than you lot? jibe. The Labour party hoped yesterday?s vote would be the end of it, this ensures that won?t happen.
As #83 says, there?s something of the West Wing about this scheme; it?s cunning, captures the public?s mood and pretty original. As a fan of Labour it worries me, as a fan of clever plotting it?s fascinating!
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Nick I disagree utterly.
This is not a story about politiking splits strategy or personalities
For once in Politics someone has actually resigned on a matter of principle to campaign on something of deep importance
to the detriment of their careers.
If Labour Mps followed their conscience this law would not have passed in a million years
To me Mr Davis has just soared in my estimation and in the eyes of many others who had long concluded that all politicians were a bunch of self serving crooks
Bravo
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Is there anyone on this board that thinks Davis would have done this if there was even a snowball's chance in hell of losing?
We all know, surely even the Purpledogs and Septic Max's of the world if they can bare to be hobest about this surely Know that he wouldn't. As such it's nothing more than a political stunt. That's not to say he doesn't hold strong beliefs which he feels are principled but to do this is just playing politics and IMO devalues his principles. I just really hope that Labour don't stand, why should they contest a seat at tax payers expense for no reason but to stroke this blokes ego. Lets leave him to fight it out with the other Monster Raving Loony Party.
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Well more than anything this is a genius political move (at least in the short term, although what happens if Davis is ever Home Secretary and has to deal with terror laws and the such like??) Makes the tories look whiter than white on this issue and keeps the Labour troubles in the headline. And all with very little risk to either Davis or the Conservatives.
But is this really just a Davis ego thing? Lets face it he is not risking a thing, it would be a far more principled stand if he had a chance of losing his seat. Now he can just grab a few headlines. Frankly, whilst agreeing with Davis on the issue, I think he is behaving a bit pathetically. I hope no-one stands against him but I rather fancy that if no-one else will one of the far right type parties might stand just to have the by election and give Davis his day in the sun for a few weeks.
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9:25 pm on 12 Jun 2008, Eatonrifle
He might have done.
He has a reputation for acting out his emotions, instability.
He is making a stand on matters where he is pretty consistently wrong , and runs contrary to the commonsense views of a majority of the conservatively minded British public.
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When David Davis' resignation is called courageous one wonders what has happened to sensible opinion. I also see bloggers compare this stunt to the heroism of the fallen of two world wars.
Utterly unbelievable.
What on earth has Davis got to lose in taking this "principled" stand?
What "courage" is required in fighting a mid term by-election, in a safe seat, when your party is 20 points ahead in the polls and you have the full backing of that party's electoral machine behind you.
It is calculated, it is cynical, it is opportunistic. It is not principled or courageous.
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Nick what planet are you, and all the BBC people I've heard so far, on?
David Davis is to be applauded, as anyone who has looked at the public reaction to this will see.
Why, when we for the first time in a long time, a politician has some principle do you go ultra-cynical looking for vanity, for party splits, etc. etc.?
The whole media reaction to this has been pathetic. I salute the man. May our hard fought liberties be saved, and the ones Labour have already gotten rid of be restored!
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Nick, what source do you have for the 'unbroadcastable' remarks you claim that Cameron must have made in his private conversation with David Davis? Or was this just wild speculation based on nothing at all but a gossip journalist's desire to report supposed personal rifts, while ignoring DD's points about the sinister and authoritarian NuLab government?
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#24 mikepko, Isnt it exciting mike , I'll just say this on this blog tonight I quite like David Davis although I dont agree with his politics, but he's a much better man than Cameron. I'm afraid through he has made a silly mistake, he'll get back in alright but Dominic Greive has already said that he wont give up his job for him, so he will come back with much less influence than he had up until today and for him thats a big mistake but I think there's something else afoot but we'll have to wait and see. Kiwilegs is gone to America to visit her family wont be back for a couple of weeks. She would have reveled in this situation dont you think.
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The Labour government and its supporters have no answer to the substantive point, they are undeniably, systematically, trashing our civil liberties with no thought for the future consequences.
In the moral vacuum of spin, all they can do is try and distract from the real issue by denigrating David Davis and keep it in the realm of Westminster political point scoring.
They show contempt for the electorate by not acknowledging it as a very serious issue that goes to the heart of our democracy.
The government may feel like a protected, privileged, elite who are in some magical way preserving their liberties while denying ours, but one day, and it's getting close, they will have to come back to reality and suffer under the yoke of repressive legislation they have enacted, under a government that's not favourable to them.
To scratch their heads and wonder what David Davis is possibly hoping to achieve is being disingenuous. It is obvious.
He wants the whole issue of our march to a surveillance society brought to a position in the agenda it deserves and requires. He has certainly created a focus for the debate, that would not have happened without his action.
The issues would have remained fragmented and compartmentalised, each in its own more easily managed little box.
A holistic overview of all the encroachments into our freedoms is required from detention without charge, to DNA databases, to... well the list is endless.
These are all manifestations of the same impetus. The government themselves probably aren't even aware of what this adds up to in totality. Each department has its little pet intrusion that will revolutionise its work, by the time every department has 'taken an inch' the government has taken a mile.
This thinking has be brought under critical control.
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You journalists are just plain wrong on this. All you are interested in is the political game-playing - 'what will it mean for the Tories?', 'Labour must be pleased', 'what's his game?', etc. You seem completely unable or unwilling to discuss whether Davis's decision was right or wrong in itself. Worse than that: you seem psychologically incapable of entertaining even the possibility that Davis (or indeed anyone else) might be doing something out of principle, rather than for personal gain.
Any suggestion that he might be doing this because he thinks it right, and therefore that it has a significance beyond day-to-day politics, is simply not considered in the MSM. The implication is that anyone who takes Davis at his word must be an idiot, or a hopeless romantic, or naive beyond measure.
But cynicism is the most common form of naievety, and nowhere is this more true than with journalists.
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I would love to see Labour hold back and Martin Bell stand for election.
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Labour are the ones in trouble here. If they refuse to put up a candidate, they will be accused of cowardice. Better they have a go so at least they can say they were unlikely to win anyway.
A member of the Cabinet talked about a "waste of public money". Well, if she's got a couple of hours I'm sure we can come up with a large selection of policies where public money has been wasted.
And Nick, read through the HYS section and then perhaps update what your analysis of the public reaction is. After all, it is the public who will be voting, not the media.
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It is interesting that Nick is getting accused of bias on this story, as I was under the impression that he is a well known Tory supporter, just as Andrew Marr was a Labour man.
I haven't seen this impact on his reporting in the past, and I don't think it does here.
The Conservatives are in control of this story, as they created it, therefore it is surely up to the media to question this approach.
David Davies' reasons speak for themselves, his statement explained his side of the argument. The BBC needed to explain the Labour argument as it is to weak to stand in isolation.
As for the reasons why this could be bad for Cameron, there are a number of them.
1) If no one runs against Davies, he is going to look foolish, as he will have no one to argue his point with. This obviously reflects badly on the Conservatives.
2) There may be a feeling that the Conservatives do not need to expose themselves in a public debate at the moment to cause Labour, and Brown, damage. They are quite capable of doing that themselves, just as the Conservatives did pre 1997. This is not a safe option for Cameron.
3) It could, rightly or wrongly, run in the face of public opinion. There are polls that show that the public support extending the limit.
Personally, I admire the stand Davies is taking, and believe that it is rooted in strongly held beliefs rather than political calculation.
But if the risk pays off, this moment could prove the political tipping point that ends the Brown government. They know this.
It is why they are trying to frame the issue as a Tory split rather than a policy debate.
Principle rule of journalism- always quote the ridiculous rebuttal in full- it makes the other side look desperate.
Then the reader/viewer can judge for themselves.
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Always did like David Davis - seemed like a straight talking no nonsense sort of chap - now he has proved he is also a man of deep principle - well done. I like that in a politician and in the party they represent!
And this is surely the sort of admirable action that shows up Labour for the sneeky and scheming bunch they really are.
Civil liberties and less government intrusion is something most of us appear to want returned to us ASAP - and if this action by David Davis helps then this is great news and a body blow to GB and his NuLabour cohorts who are clinging to power by the skin of their teeth and scare tactics.
Some people have mentions the cost of a by-election - well what about the cost of 'buying' the 9 votes required for the '42 day' vote and the cost of troops in Iraq and Afganistan, or the cost of all those NuLabour Spin Doctors etc. I suspect the cost of a by-election is small change compared to NuLabour wastage over the last 11 uears - £2.7bn for the 10p Tax cock up comes readily to mind!
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Oh dear Nick:
"quite extraordinary and without precedent"?
Well, rhondda01 wrote at 2:46 pm on 12 June
"There is in fact a precedent. George Lansbury resigned his seat in 1912 on the issue of supporting the Suffragette Movement. He lost."
But have both of you forgotten Dick Taverne who resigned his seat at Lincoln in 1973 to fight (and win) a By-election against his own Party (Labour) and who now sits in the Lords?
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Nick, You've so misread this. Of course MP's can't begin to understand what Davis has done...the idea of voluntary resignation is so totally alien to them. But outside of Westminster we're cheering.
The real story is this...what's 'bottler Brown' going to do? Stand and fight or cower in his bunker? And what about those bullied and bruised Labour MP's that, against all their better judgement, voted for the assault on our basic liberties.
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Your analysis is disgraceful. Many have written of the erosion of freedom by this vile and corrupt regime. Corruption of the media should also be added to this government's track record. Can we now look forward to your resignation? I'm sure that Mr. Mugabe could find you a suitable position.
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All of the comments about the cost of an election are miniscule compared to the current waste from this Government. £29M for example on the unbuilt asylum centre in Oxfordshire.
WE should be more concerned at the erosion of our liberties
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Reading between the lines my conclusion is:
In the run up to the vote Cameron was faced with a split in the Party, it seems Davis's position was, if the party voted for or abstained he would resign. On the other hand the hang um and flog um brigade along with public oppinion was in favour of 42 days.
Faced with this Cameron was in two minds.
Davis confident that with Labour backbenchers and others he would win the vote, the extreme right wing demanding a hard line on terrorism. Cameron seeing the possibility of undermining Brown forced through a no vote, with a three line whip, on the understanding that if the vote was lost Davis would be kicked out of the shadow cabinet
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It would be a good idea to put a candidate from the Liberal, an official Conservative candidate and maybe an UKIP so there is at least a debate (maybe one sided). Will Labour then field a candidate if this happens?
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I have always failed to see how the Party system represents MY interests as a constituent.
My MP (ex Boris) does the bidding of his party and not his constituents.
The Party system needs taking down a peg or two, we need more individuals and more responsive MPs.
Hooooray for Davis, and Hoooray for Brown for showing us how poopy the party system is.
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What I would like to know, since David Davies has caused this By-election, who's going to pay for it. Personally, he caused it, he should pay for it, if he wants to stand. Why should the tax payer!!
Andy Leak
Scarborough
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This is not principled action: This not heroic. This, quite simply, is the political equivalent of an attention-seeking child throwing its dummy out of the pram.
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I am totally in favour of David Davis's actions. We have suffered, the gradual denudation of our civil liberty, for too long. David has made a statement, let us applaud his action.
No doubt government spin will discredit David, his action and question his sanity
This is a win win Tory strategy, and will show Brown and the Labour party for what it is, hell bent on taking the personal freedom's that generations have fought so hard to acquire.
The Labour party must stand in the bye election or risk being accused of failing to recognise the concern's of the people, the electorate they claim to represent.
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At last, an MP who is willing to make a stand. It is such as pity that political commentators like Nick are so easily swayed by the Westminster spin and therefore cannot remain objective. Maybe, it is time for Nick to go too.
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Post 130 is right - the Unionists did resign en masse, but they lost one seat (South Armagh, or equivalent). Is it not ironic that those who resigned on principle then are those now bribed by Brown to win the vote?
If Cameron is furious, fair enough, he can't have front benchers running away to do their own thing. However, Davis has gained the Tories weeks of positive front page headlines, even from their natural opponents.
Davis will be the main topic of conversation and the man on the Clapham omnibus will love him. When he is re-elected, Cameron must bring him straight back into the front bench team. The public will demand that.
Politics has just become interesting again, the public will respond well to someone making a principled stand.
Yet again, Brown has lost control of events. I suspect next week's polls will see him at an even lower rating.
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# Reading through these last few posts here, there are of course quite a few others in the same vein, they do nothing other than show the underlying feeling that their panicking, the've had it so good for the last few months that now that David Davis has suddenly taken leave of his senses, as indicated by Camerons reaction. They are running around like chickens with their heads cut off. According to them this is the end for Labour, for Gordon Brown and for every protective act that labour have brought in.
If only it was that easy for them, they would have got Cameron to resign and then put himself up for re-election if they thought it would bring Labour down. Cameron knows that this is a monumental mistake and thats why he wants no truck with it, there's obviously a little more to thiis story than meets the eye but Nick will find it out never fear.
The idea that labour are worried about this resignation is typical of the Tory mindset, I can tell you folks that Labour are laughing there socks off, all I hope is that they dont make the mistake of standing against him. let him bath in his ego trip then sit back and see how foolish he will look.
Despite all that I quite like David Davis but this erratic behaviour from one of the top men in the conservative party plus Camerons rantings does'nt say a lot for the country should they get back in power.
As for the protestations about Dna Data base, civil libities detention and all the other things like cctv and road cameras tell me and I have a open mind on this why exactly were all these things brought in ? and do you think that should the Tories get back power they will tear down the cameras. disband the DNA data base and return what you percieve to be infringments on our civil liberties , if you believe that then you just as well vote for the Monster raving loony party.
My perception is all these things are for the wellbeing of the country, the only people that I've ever seen trying to suppress the people have been under the Tories when they sent out riot police against unarmed mine strikers and other strikers not once but on a number of occasions and they were instructed to use their batons, at one time they brought out the Army.
Some one here remarked look at all the posts in favour of what Davis has done, well we socialists are quite aware that there are far more tories on these blogs than labour supporters so it almost like going into a conservative club and asking what they think. it as no significance whatsoever.
As for Nick lets all shoot the messenger.
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Wouldnt this be an excellent time for a Labour backbencher or even cabinet member to launch a leadership challenge to Brown?
British politics seem to be approaching a volatile stage- sorely needed.
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A welcome principled stand and a great example to set, while making Labour MP's look like weak kneed toadies and doing the Tories no harm at all.
It will also raise his profile and reputation for when the next Tory leadership contest comes along.
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Is this an attempt to corrupt party politics?
Mr Davis should resign from the Conservative Party and stand as an independent if he feels so strongly about this issue.
The financial cost is considerable to force an election like this. Why should the ratepayers and local council who will administer the election have to put up the money to cover the monitoring and administration when such an unneccessary resignation is made?
If the local Conservatives have any sense they should refuse to support him.
Don't resign; just have some local debates.
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Nick,
I was interested in your comments during the David Davis report ,you say that courageous in Politics speak is basically meaning stupidity. So why did a later report last evening about the two Para's who were killed were said to have been courageous by Gordon Brown. So as you say does this mean that Gordon Brown is saying that the whole honour of fighting for our country is stupidity?. Or should you and Gordon Brown make an immediate apology for insulting the armed services as you clearly say that Political spin on the word courageous is stupidity?
Probably wait for hell to freeze over first I bet!
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it's indeed dangerous time for David Cameron. by standing the by-election, labour has nothing to lose. Mr Davis had a 5,116 majority last time anyway. if he does win (very likely), it proves very little. if he doesn't or wins with a not-big-enough margin, labour get an argument here.
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This country has given the world Magna Carta (the principle of equality under the law), Presumption of Innocence, Trial by Jury, Habeas Corpus, an Independent Judiciary and representative Parliamentary Democracy. Any one of thes alone would have been a great gift to the cause of human freedom. Together they leave an immense legacy.
I am no lawyer, but I fail to understand how a government that is packed to the gunwales with lawyers is slowly demolishing these hard fought and hard won princilples one by one.
Good luck to Mr.Davis for having the courage of his principles.
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I have just heard Kelvin McKenzie - the possible Sun candidate to oppose DD. I do not know what country he is living in with councils using and abusing terror legislation to spy on dustbin contents and parents as an example. But the he has friends in high places.
I wonder too whether the UK allies will be to keen to give this Govt any real info after the Al Quaeda docs on train affair DESPITE ALL THE "SECURITY".
Brown is claiming dissent in the Tory Party. Where is the vote? There was huge dissension in Za-NuLab; a 60+ majority disintegrated into a 9 vote (DUP) majority. Thats what I CALL SERIOUS DISSENSON
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186:
Everybody's entitled to their own opinions. To compare Conservative supporters to members of The Monster Raving Loony Party does you no favours whatsoever. Let's confine ourselves to a reasonable debate and leave the personal stuff out of it. I thought you were a little more reasonable than that.
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This is a no-win situation for NuLabour.
If they don't field a candidate, that will escalate "not having the bottle to call an election" to "refusing to take part in an election". Even Mugabe hasn't gone that far, yet.
If they do field a candidate, remember there are two bye-elections outstanding now. Labour might well lose their deposit in Henley - or even in both, if the Lib Dems don't stand againt Davis.
And if the "Sun Party" fields a candiate, there are guaranteed to be rich political pickings from the antics of their more extreme sympathisers.
Hey, suddenly politics is fun again!
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If David Davis really wants to make a principled stand then this doesn't seem the issue to make it on.
Logically what is the difference between 28 and 42 days? There is no point of principle here.
This is a publicity stunt and a waste of public money. DD has gone into orbit and completely lost the plot.
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Money, money, money and character assassination, the arguments of the morally and intellectually bankrupt.
I've been a life-long supporter of a principled Labour party that fought for the rights of ordinary people in the face of oppressive forces.
Sadly that party no longer exists.
I quite agree that the Tory party, once in power, will do nothing to roll back state intrusion, one can understand the massive attraction it has for those who would control us.
That's why it's vital that the Labour government, in the little time they have left, starts to think seriously about the kind of state it is willing to us and is seen to be rediscovering its principles, actively implementing the recommendations of the Home Affairs Select Committee as a beginning.
Also they should drop the ?Transformational Government? strategy. I bet it sounded really whizzy in the presentation, but they're transforming into the wrong thing.
The impetus to get it right is the support it would attract at the next general election.
There is no reason to be in thrall to the purveyors of new invasive technologies. The government must learn to, 'just say NO', to them and also control their spread in the private sector, not ape it. Simply because it's possible doesn't make it right, or inevitable.
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Nick I was very surprised that you fell for the labour party spin/line.
I am not sure it was the best way of making his point but at least it has got the matter of the Orwellian society into which we are sleep walking up the political agenda.
As for the Kelvin Mackenzie argument that he would have upto 420 days if it stopped the possibility of people attacking us has that been tried before. Ithink Hitler and Stalin used similar arguments and it is commonly used by all tinpot dictators
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According to today's Times newspaper, if the byelection is contested it will cost the taxpayer £80,000. Whether you support David Davis's views or not he has chosen to make his point through a pretty expensive gesture. There are other ways to go about it.
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I am surprised by Nick Robinson's pathetic attempt to stir up trouble in the Conservative Party. I have never seen a politician be more sincere than David Davis when he made his announcement yesterday. Compare that with the Labour sheep being marched through the lobby despite their beliefs, demonstrating the worst aspect of party politics. If only more MPs would take a stand for what they believe in this country would be a better place. Try and apply a little more intelligence in future Mr Robinson.
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I think there is a difference in what the politicians and reporters in Westminster think is important and what the rest of us think is important.
Most of us don't really care if a party leader can make his politicians do exactly as he says - Gordon Brown can do that and it only serves to weaken parliament.
What we do like is a politician principled enough to risk his career for something he believes in.
I think this difference in what is important to Westminster and what is important to the rest of us is the reason why the accusations of bias are forthcoming.
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I am definately with most people who have made comments here. When I first heard of David Davies' resignation yesterday I thought at last and good for him. I couldnt believe the spin the BBC put out - honestly, talk about Gordon Brown's mouthpiece!! In fact Gordon Brown is coming out today and using exactly the same argument as Nick has spun in his political comment yesterday.
There is me thinking we lived in a democracy. Politicans like David Davies should be applauded not criticized.
I hope he wins, and wins well and that this awful arm twisting government are kicked out sooner rather than later.
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This is merely a stunt by DD to have some "credibility" at the next general election. Mr. Cameron will spout "our home secretary stood for people's freedoms etc etc.". What tosh.
Even what DD said in his statement was tosh, especially about the Magna Carta. It is the elected representatives of this country that protect it NOT the unelected peers! Using the 1911 Act is there to ensure the peers keep in line and not to disrupt the democratic system. So he is against a democratic system is he!
What civil liberties have we lost?
Where is the proof that Brown has paid off backbenchers? Those spouting "save our civil liberties" are prepared to support allegations. Well maybe we don't need courts then. Yes that would again support no democracy via the rule of law.
It seems that a lot of supporters for these tory-spin-politicians would quite settle for a lardy a**e Cameron than follow a civil system of governance.
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# park avenue 301 . I assume that you are a reasonable person and if you agree with that assumption then perhaps I could ask you to read my post again with reference to the MRL party not any were do I compare the Tories with that party, what I said in brief was that if you believed that the tories would repeal all these policies,[ which they wont] then you might as well vote for the MRL party, trying in a perhaps not to subtle way that if your daft enough to believe that then maybe you should vote for MRL party as their as likely to repeal these acts as the tories. I think if you think about it for a little while you will see the piont Im making.
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I agree with Davis' principle - the fact we have a longer detention without charge period than China just about says it all.
But there is something narcissistic about his gesture to resign his seat. He's part of a political party, and his party policy is to have consistently opposed the changes. What is the point of his gesture? It's not as if there is a national emergency at this point.
The Tory party has had a brilliant few months, and David Cameron is doing an excellent job carefully steering his party into a position of potential power. For Davis' to move without his support or mandate is disloyalty masquerading as self-sacrifice.
It's obvious Davis has not got over losing the leadership election (and thank God he did) to someone who is infinitely more attractive to any electorate and more collegiate in his approach.
I think he's just drama-queened himself out of the future cabinet and if Cameron has any sense - and he does survive a byelection of weirdos and nutters - he should be told his cabinet seat is no longer vacant.
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Mr. Robinson, you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself. You are obviously an intelligent man so why are you allowing yourself to be led by the nose by the government's spin machine?
Dangerous for David Cameron? I don't think so! Mr. Davies' actions prove, conclusively, that unlike Labour MPs Tories can and will be their own people, according to their own principles. And as for the ghastly Kelvin McKenzie person, I suspect he is going to end up looking very foolish indeed.
The sight of various government toadies frantically trying to spin the situation to their own advantage would be hilarious if it wasn't for the vomit-inducing encouragement they are getting from the BBC which should damn well know better.
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No one has picked up on how similar Davis is to Oswald Mosley.
Oswald Mosley was in the Labout party on on the issue that he left the party, economic policy, he was right. He went for short term glory and left the political mainstream. This was excitinig for him and he much prefered to lead his own party and try and control events that way. Had he stayed in the mainstream he might well have been sucessful. Going his own way was a diasaster for both him and the country
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Problem is Nick You in the Press always think that when an MP does something like this on a matter of principal you are sceptical because your view is politicians have another motive when making such a stand. I guess you would have said the same about George Lansbury in 1912 when he did took the same action in support of a womens right to vote
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At last !!! Congratulations to Mr. Davis. Political commentators, Mr Robinson, may have called this one wrong. David Davis may have struck a chord and just maybe he might force a change in government policy.
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Come on Nick! Even by your standards this is an absurdly inacurate and one-sided view of the proceedings. Had you just come off the phone from one of your Labour buddies when you wrote this piece?
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David Davis's actions are the first thing for what seems like years that has made me feel there is any hope for Great Britain. I was one train behind the Warren Street bomb and I still think any attempt by any government to insidiously repudiate Habeas Corpus as incorporated in Magna Carta (and which forms a significant part of the US constitution) is abhorrent and should be resisted at every opportunity. Mr. Davis's stand now enables this to become a publicly debated issue at last. I would urge everyone in the UK to see A Man For All Seasons - Robert Bolt's wonderful screenplay deals with the reality of this sinister issue. And thanks Gordon for the referedum on Euro Constitution as promised in the party's election manifesto - glad you think we aren't worth it.
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I am personally sick of this nanny, intrusive state stealing our liberties by stealth all in the name of a war on terror that is being used to steal our human rights.
I am glad that it is about time someone put their foot down and stood up to the interference and control of our lives by the labour spin doctors who always try and ram down their control-freak, I know best policies down our throats.
If the labour party had the same level of integrity as David Davis then they would have called an election we would have been shot of their failures and endless spin by now.
The country is starting to realise that this big government, tax and spend, big brother, stalinistic rule is strangling us.
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The insular world of politicians and hacks - far removed from the world most of us live in
Don't agree at all Mr Robinson that it's dangerous for Cameron - why would it be?
Whilst an odd decision given DD could have played a more influential role by staying put, you have to respect him more and those muppets in Labour less for their 'acquisition' of MPs to support the bill.
As for news of Kelvin Mackenzie entering the by election ring......the poor man clearly feels forgotten...so time to raise his portly head again
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Once more, Nick Robinson defends the 'independence' and 'political objectivity' of the BBC! Quite frankly, I am unsurprised that he suggests the resignation was a total disaster for the Tories....whilst David Davis' actions may in part be political maneouvring, he was defending the civil liberties of this country, something that Nick Robinson would happily see diminshed just to have Labour back in power.
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After 42 years I can't believe that I may actually be a Tory.
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I think its madness.
It costs the taxpayer a lot of money to hold a by-election, which is not a medium to fight your own personal battles, no matter how well-meaning.
The government was not obliged to hold any kind of referendum on this and the labour party is not obliged to field a candidate.
As the Government, the Labour party should not field a candidate in order to defend policy - its quite wrong and quite unprincipled.
If Labour does not field a candidate, the by-election will take place against David Davis and a right-wing ex Sun-editor and will thus be discarded into the Loony Right of British Politics, doing David Cameron a lot of damage in the short to medium term.
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Dear Nick,
You cannot ignore the fact that ths is the first choice the public have been freely offered by a politician in over a decade. That will appeal to a great many people, not only in Haltemprice and Howden, particularly since we have been denied choices in two major issues in the past year alone, namely the Lisbon Treaty and the leadership of our country. Mr Brown clearly does not trust the electorate to make the decisions that agree with his. Mr Davis has clearly demontrated that he does.
I have never been comfortable with the idea of prolonged detention without charge in our country. I am even more uncomfortable about the manner in which this measure was passed in the commons and frankly Mr Davis' actions show the only glimmer of integrity and courage in an otherwise wholly shabby and undemocratic affair. Aren't the people labelling this as a gimmick the same ones claiming that the DUPs' voting was purely from conscience?
Good luck David Davis!
ps I used to vote Labur too.
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Well Nick you have sure started a debate.Or should I say David Davis has and really thats what its about.Rather than lie down and and thats a battle lost David has put new life into it .
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David Davis is my hero, I am glad that someone in public office has seen fit to voice the concerns of many, many people.
Why should my daughter who has never even had a school detention, have to have her fingerprints taken. CCTV cameras do not stop crimes occuring, they just to make the police complacent.
42 days without charge for suspected terrorists is the slippery slope to 42 days without charge for disagreeing with this odious socialist/communist/government
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Nick, try not to focus too much on the party politics, because on this occasion there is a greater issue at stake - the nature of our society and the degree of state intrusion and control.
We do indeed have an illiberal government, and David Davies does well to highlight this, bringing it to the country's attention. We need to discuss this issue. Neither party has been fully open on this. David Davies is singlehandedly trying to force a debate - a debate that the public wants to have. I congratulate him.
One of the problems is that deep down the Tories are not wholeheartedly championing a more liberal society - as demonstrated for example by the lack of commitment to reverse 42 days. Hence the need for DD to go it alone.
I'd like to seen you, Nick, try to help facilitate this "great debate", but your post shies away from the real issues, reducing the issue to the petty politics of whether it matters for Cameron or not.
The public have also now really woken up to the way parliament works - and they don't like it. The cajoling and bullying that goes on, indeed the whole whip system, is a growing dry rot in our democracy. MPs are elected to represent their constituents, that is the parliamentary process that we claim to have shown the world. So why do we no longer allow them to represent their constituents?
As to the real issue here, if someone needs to be locked up, then presumably there are good reasons? So why can't these reasons translate to a charge? What is needed is a beefing up of legislation on making "preparation for terrorism" - based on the same police evidence that leads the police to want to arrest people - into a chargeable offence.
This would be a relatively straightforward, compared with the "sledgehammer" of suspending habeus corpus - which really is an affront to our liberty.
Nick, I hope you will recognise the volume and strength of the disappointment expressed in this blog that you saw DD's move only in terms of the party politics. And also of course the volume and depth of feeling over the extension to 42 days...
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Nick Robinson does talk garbage sometimes!
Why all the negativity about something which is a bold principaled move by a politician for a change.
I'm quite sure the majority of the public will see this as a Concervative politician making a bold principalled move which has been made despite the risk to his own personal carreer.
David Davis will gain respect from the public for being a politician of substance and I'm sure this will have a positive affect on the Conservativeparty too making them seen more as aparty of principal than spin.
Nick Robinson should be ashamed of himself for trying to misrepresent a bold and principalled move. He and we all should be encouraging Davis and other MP's to extoll these kind of virtues.
This is exactly the kind of principalled move the public want to see from their politicians, not the bribery spin and political manoevering of Gordon Brown and his crownies or Nick Robinson for that matter!
Shame on you NR.
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I think accusing Nick Robinson of political bias towards Labour is quite funny. Nick is a Tory through and through, but he's a damn good journalist who never lets his allegiance sway his commentary. Good on you, Nick
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I am sorry but I don't see this as anything other than a political stunt.
I assume that David Davies, being in a top Shadow Cabinet position will hold a safe Tory seat. That given what risk is he taking?
Nickie Campbell this moring pushed the point that Labour should stand against David Davies in the by election to gauge the mood of the Country. This will be difficult in a safe Tory seat whose constituents will not want to face losing a leading Tory light even if they agree with the 42 days.
I thought anti-terrorism and stronger police powers were always advocated by his party anyway - it always used to be the case.
As I said earlier it looks like a cheap political stunt.
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I am so proud of this man David Davis. I am opposed to the 42 day detention as i believe that " justice delayed is justice denied". It is great to see a man stand up against oppresion and injustice(Which will be results from this new law) regardless of the cost to him.
Shame on the Labour government as people from within your government have had to go along for the sake of the party not because they belived in what they were voting for.
Well done David Davis, well done Dianne Abbott and all honourable men and women who voted against.
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To Ram law...
Would you risk your entire career and job future by performing a stunt?
MP's work very hard indeed to get to the position DD has reached. Noone in their right mind is going to lose all that simply to pull off a stunt.
A politician does the right thing for once and all we get is sinicism. You Ram Law belong right along side people like Brown and Blair who spout off about principal and deliver lies spin and bribery.
And if you really wish to dispute the bribery claims why not ask Diane Abbot what she thinks!
All those back benchers and DUP members lining up to talk with GB and then suddenly changing their stance - what do you think was offered chopped liver?
A blind man living on Mars would have been able to see the crookery involved yesterday.
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The Tories should back Davis 100% at this moment. The fact that our overwatched, overregulated, punitive climate has been allowed to become the norm in this country is pernicious and downright dangerous for all of us. Perhaps as dangerous as terrorosm itself. The sheer weight of support David Davis has stirred would seem to indicate that if this isn't a mainstream Tory argument it jolly well should be right now.
David Davis has sown a seed that could eventually restore some faith in the integrity of politicians. And by his actions could throw more light on Government that is oppressive, interfering and grasping at any opportunity to take - not give. From a wheel slightly over a line to sniffing through bins, if we don't stop this now our children will never know what it was like to be free.
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Too sensible has absolutely nailed it!
Spot on! DD's decsision will prove emensely popular with the public, and will further the Tories purpose.
GB and his political manipulating might be acceptable in Westminster village, but in the Village of the real world it will be seen as bribery and cookedness, whilst DD's actions will be seen as honest and principaled, despite NR's attempts to derail them.
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Re VicMorrish Oswald Mosley comparison, while interesting and unusual, it's pretty thin. [208] Mosley was a power crazed, self-serving, opprtunist, strutting racist nutter. None of these characteristics in any way resembles those of the highly intelligent, principled patriot David Davis is proving to be. Courage is rather different from fascist opportunism.
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P.S. re 208: Mosley's economic opinion may have been right at the time but one swallow doesn't make a summer. Hitler made trains run on time. The very trains that transported millions to their deaths.
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Think back to when David Davis threw away the leadership at Blackpool, delivering a Home Secretary's speach to an audience which included many who had, twenty years before, been partying in Brighton until just before the IRA failed in their first attempt to decapitate the Conservative Government.
He had only to repeat what he had said to the fringe meetings and he would have won, hands down.
This is not the first time that his principles have got in the way of his ambition.
Now, as then, he is probably better briefed than the Home Secretary as to the reality of what is really happening in the war against terror - because the briefs to ministers are so systematically edited on the way up.
Either he has miscalculated badly, as he did at Blackpool - or he has not - and he will lead a campaign that will eventually drown out the voices of those seeking to re-create a Hobbesian Leviathon state.
Remember that Charles 1 supposedly wanted ship money to protect those living on the South Coast from having their wives and daughters kidnapped by slave-traders from North Africa: The 17th century equivalent of today's "war against terror".
Then Parliament stood in the King's way.
Today ...
More-over David Davis has taken his stand in such a way as to minimize any possible risk to David Cameron.
If the public swings behind the Government as they use their full panoply of secret squirrel powers to break the lorry drivers ...
If they do not and call for Government to respond to the pain of those being taxed out of work ...
As in the Chinese Curse - "we live in interesting times"
It may well be an ego trip, but as David Davis said on the Today programme - all politicians are egotists.
Whether he goes down in history as a principled political hero or a just another politician with delusions of personal grandeur - he is indeed gambling for high stakes - the future of the most centralised and bureaucratic state west of the Urals and perhaps also the future of those who brought about its creation, the most centralised, vociforous and voratious media machines west of the Urals.
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I have never voted Conservative in my life. But for me David Davis' stand on this issue means I no longer feel they are the 'nasty' party and even feel some positive feelings. I hope the argument against 42 days is made convincingly and that this government's erosion of civil liberties is reversed.
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I can' help noticing that the people saying it will cost taxpeyer a fortune to have a by-election have forgotten the 2.7 BILLION that the Crewe by-election cost us
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If Brown is so convinced that the public support 42 days he should resign his safe Scottish seat and put himself forward agianst DD.
Let the battle commence!
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An MP is elected to represent his constituents, not himself. Davis' action undermines this fundamental democratic priciple. You can't pull a stunt like this because you don't like the outcome of the democratic process to which everyone else adhere's. This is pure politics and the tax payer will have to foot the bill.
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Well done indeed to Conservative MP David Davis for resigning from the post of Shadow Home Secretary over this issue - which narrowly gained a Commons 'yes' vote. Leaving aside politics or anything at all to do with the Conservative party or even Davies himself, I think it is FANTASTIC at last to see a person of some standing actually use the power he has to speak out publicly and thereby speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. Great - and about time a few more MPs followed his example quite frankly, because - exactly as the man said to Cameron in Cornwall, ordinary people cannot do this. Only MPs can do this, but they hardly ever do, and maybe they should devote some thought to the idea that whilst yesterday's vote might have been 'politics', it certainly wasn't 'democracy' and that actually is very serious. Meanwhile Gifted Gordon is already smirking again and crowing about the 'public' being behind him, which shows what a tired old fool he really is.
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Wow... what a difference between the commentators and the public. For the commentators its politics, for the public... finally someone with some principles is ready to stand up to the shocking erosion of our freedoms.
To my surprise, David Davies has made me feel a little bit proud to be part of our country... and I can't remember a politician who has done that since...
...actually since never!
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well atleast 8 of your points are quit valid however
point 1 - the sun will suport whichever party they will think will win the election at the time "i'm sure you have said that yourself at sometime" so really this will have no affect on which party they will support. Not that it matter so much anyway.
the real person that is on a power trip is Rupet Merdock and this could really back fire on him because he lose the infulance he as over british politics "which would be about time hes not even bristish for crying out loud"
if labour doesn't put a candidate up Brown could look like he as bottled it again
But the most imprsive thing here is that DAVIS as put his head on the block and said this is who i am this is what i belive in if you don't like it here your chance to have somone eles, WOW it's inspiring gives me hope that we havn't landed into a world where who you vote for doesn't matter anymore.
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I don't see how this can be in any way successful for David Davis or the Conservatives:
1) Davis is the incumbent MP for this constituency.
- The Conservatives currently hold a majority
- Labour and Liberal are unlikely to stand
- Voters are creatures of habit and are only likely to protest vote against a party in power, which means Davis likely win a hollow victory based not on the 42-day rule, but on a lack of opposition and the fact that his own voters are already greater in number than the non-existent opposition.
2) The 42-day rule is largely popular amongst the electorate.
- Assuming that voters were honestly to put political allegiance completely out of their minds and vote on this suubject and this subject alone, Davis would likely lose.
- Voters are human and thus can't simply, honestly vote on this issue alone, and as such any mandate Davis claims he has on the subject will be completely undermined by voting habits, alternative issues that render other parties unpopular alternatives, etc.
3) In an political atmosphere where Brown is criticised for 'toying' with prospective dates for a general election and the electorate are largely apathetic to politics and shun the ballot box, for Davis to force an election at, no doubt, cost to the taxpayer creates as much criticism for the hassle and pointlessness of the whole process as it does praise for his principles.
4) Someone stands against him with a completely separate political agenda (Kelvin Mackenzie, etc). They don't have the political baggage and so avoid the issues of party allegiances, and stand on a number of other policies that attract other voters. Liberals, Labour voters and the apathetic masses are inspired to vote against Davis for the 42-day reason or for any other reason, and he loses. It may thus be the case that he stands on the 42-day mandate platform, and loses for that, or a number of other reasons. Cameron is one senior MP down, Davis has egg on his face, and Labour win a small, unexpected victory whether they gain a seat or not.
I acknowledge what Davis is trying to do here, but I wonder whether he'd be so 'principled' if he was in power and the party whips were telling him to get in line or else. Would he be so 'principled' if he was part of a Tory government trying to make such a law change? This isn't an issue of courage, but a worthless risk.
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Good old tax payer paying for some one who cant except defeat and not waiting for the lords to do they part, grow up Davis I hope no one from the labour party stand against you, so you look like a real ****** which you are ! Are the Tory's really ready for government I don't think so with a stunt like this SJS
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Surely the cost of a by-election pales into insignificance compared to the cost of locking up a potentially innocent person for 42 days (and probably releasing one who has been found guilty under due process of law just to make room for him).
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I think the Westminster Village and the BBC in particular - Humphries, Robinson, Jo Coburn - have completely misread this one. I read Robinson's 10 'reasons why I'm right' and just thought 'stop digging' by the time I got to number three.
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Nick
I think you've gone too far in your blatant pro-Labour partisanship this time. How can it be a "dangerous time for David Cameron" when he agrees and voted with David Davies and the rest of the Conservative party against the extension from 28 days? Why are you acting as part of the Labour spin-machine? Are you hoping to stand as a Labour MP?
BBC can we please have a new Political Editor who respects your founding unpartisan charter?
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Dear Nick,
A man does something few others are prepared to do - stands up to be counted on an issue that should matter immensely to all Britons, including you - and all you can do is wonder about his personal motivation and the political fallout. On BBC News last night you looked more like a delighted tabloid editor who'd just got hold of a juicy scoop than a serious political reporter. I wonder, have you really grasped the issue at stake here?
Dear BBC,
Could we please have a serious political editor, and could the BBC itself please not treat the issue of individual rights and freedoms so lightly.
Thank you
Rita Kitto
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It's a clever little trick he's pulled but I'm surprised by the number of people calling his move, amongst other things, "brave", "bold", "daring" etc.
He's given up a seat where between them the Conservatives and Lib Dems held nearly 85% of the vote at the last election with Labour trailing in with around 12%. The chances of his losing that seat at a by-election, particularly in the current climate, are slim even if all the Conservative voters in the area are in favour of the 42 day rule because they will still vote for him to keep Labour out. If I was Gordon Brown I wouldn't waste my time and the tax payers money fighting it, I would get on with trying to get the Government back on track.
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An act of extraordinary vanity and attention-seeking - it's almost high camp.
Looking at it from Gordon's point of view, what would the point of opposing him be?
It's a safe Tory seat, and even if they were 90% for 42 days, they'd still vote Tory. The vote wouldn't be on the 'single issue'. It's not cowardice to pick one's battles according to whether you can win.
As for principles, surely there's a much more important principle here - that laws are decided through Parliamentary vote, not by plebiscite in whichever maverick MP's constituency is put up for by-election because he takes exception to a voting result.
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It is utterly immaterial whether 42 days is popular with the electorate or not and people who use this in defence of the bill should not! David Davies is no fool - he knows this!
A) no-one will ever know if it's true or not (without a referendum - and WE ALL know what Brown thinks of them)
and
B) the question of detention without trial is a MORAL issue a matter of fundamentanl legal principle.
It is improper and immoral to judge the bill meritworthy simply because it appears to have popular support. Laws were never right because they were popular.
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The number of comments generated clearly shows how much discussion this has generated. Even if it was only, as some say, "a publicity stunt", it has at least galvanised the populace into thinking there is more to politics than MPs and their exorbitant expenses.
However, far from playing into the hands of New Labour's spin machine, it is David Davis has demonstrated that, alone of all the MPs, he is prepared to "put his money where his mouth is" (voting against a motion is one thing; resigning from the cabinet or shadow cabinet is another. It takes real resolve, though, to resign your seat in parliament, and for that, if nothing else, he should be given every plaudit)
When the newspapers point out that the 42 days internment without trial puts the UK near the level of (often criticised for its human rights) China, then it amply demonstrates just how far towards an Orwellian nightmare this country has gone.
Indeed, by all accounts, Gordon Brown only achieved the vote he got through repeated bullying and "persuasion" (tactics that are increasingly being, quite rightly, outlawed in schools and the workplace). This gives out the message to the entire country that bullying is actually encouraged to push through a point of view that can only be described as obnoxious. In other words, all those who voted for the motion are happy to ride roughshod over all the human rights that this country has built up for the sake of their own individual betterment. This makes them nothing short of traitors to the United Kingdom, who should be the ones forced to resign their seats.
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Nick and certainly a number of your media friends seem to be missing the point and I'm glad I'm not alone (in fact the majority) in pointing out the misconception in your argument. How this shows the Tories in disarray is an extraordinary piece of media politicking fed no doubt by the Government spin machine (and you wonder why Davis is doing what he is doing?)
It would be nice to see some thoughtful comment going on. Whatever the merits of Davis' individual decision it has assured that civil liberties becomes a national issue that too many are either too lazy or too indifferent to think about.
This is about civil liberties and I am certainly no human rights activist but I see the erosion everyday. Does anybody wonder where Hayek, Kafka and Orwell got their ideas from?
History shows us that the dark side to socialism is its control freakery something that our incumbent Prime Minister has in spades. How do you think East Germany got to the state it found itself in? There wasn't a switch flicked overnight....Has anyone heard of the boiling frog sundrome?
Davis just might save UK politics in his actions and the country with it.......as for the media less mindless herd mentality and more searching questions may be the order of the day.
How the attention of Brown's grubbiness on such an issue has escaped makes me think that journalism in this country has become very propagandist - now where I have heard that before???
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Dear Nick,
Would it be possible for you to set the new 42 day limit in context? How many countries in the world have limits of 42 days or greater? Which countries are they?
I would also be interested in how long 'rogue states', such as Cuba, Iran, Pakistan to name a few, are able to detain people under 'official' legislation?
Kind Regards,
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Davis resigns and is replaced by his friend Grieves. Grieves says Davis did the right thing. So, if he is sincere, Grieves should now resign too. And so on... until we have a shadow Home Secretary who thinks Davis was wrong i.e. until we have an open split in the Conservatives.
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Ah, there he is again. Mr Red Top Mackenzie......says he's 90% sure he's going to run in the by election. Come on Kelvin, that's unlike you to be 10% unsure!
An almost forgotten man......seeking his next 15 minutes in a long line of below average fame!
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This is wonderful stuff, an unofficial leadership election for the Tories. Cameron is massively damaged by thie. Davies cleaerly feels that Cameron's opportunistic popularity is not going to last or be strong enough to see the tories take powers. This is a clear leadership challenge and Nick, you should be reporting it as that.
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Its just a self indulgent waste of tax payers money. Period. And the government have to balance human rights and security issues-cliched as it sounds. Its a gesture thats meaningless.
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I agree that there is a risk with Davis' strategy for Cameron and also that it makes Cameron look a little 'out of control' of his cabinet.
However, I also believe that the immense costs of either not doing anything at all or otherwise doing something in 'halves' are equally untenable for someone of principle.
Davis has rightly outweighed any issues of political expediency in favour of political power punching which engages the democratic debates so lacking in modern Britain.
It should abhor anyone who strongly believes in the democratic principle that our rights are being slowly dismantled not only through so called 'terror legistlation' but also through the European 'superstate' project.
Whatever one's belief, we should all be aware that we are perhaps sleepwalking into a Police-Fascist style of state which is ever more being driven through the 'politics of fear', and the state is ever more distant from the needs of the people and ever more reliant on private enterprise for profit (including the defence industry, esp as in the US).
Davis mentioned the 42 day terror law as well as ID cards as some examples.. if the government has its way, every aspect of our lives will be watched over, governed and controlled, ultimately not by the state (even though that is bad enough) but by private companies with a motive for profit (just look at the new 'super-surgery' plans)and protected to act as a government agency. All our details will be open to private and criminal scrutiny, including our precious DNA info, our life.
In my opinion, nothing is worth giving up our democratic rights for - nothing. It has cost countless lives and the political bravery of many men and women to achieve them.. we should therefore rightly guard ourselves against such abuse or potential for abuse.
We should perhaps have a Charter or Constitution which aims to protect us from such abuses.. to be discussed
David Davis - a "farce".. no, it is Brown who is farcical and he know's it.
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You are wrong, Nick, this is a masterstroke.
As a born socialist and long time human rights activist I am struggling with my conscince - How can I reconcile myself to voting Conservative at the next election, as I knwo I must?
Yesterday, that just got easier.
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I'm not entirely convinced that this will be a real problem for David Cameron. To be sure, any major politician with the status and a personal following of the kind Mr Davis is likely to gather WHEN he wins the by-election is a potential risk to any leader, especially with the two Davids' history.
David Cameron is one of the savviest politicians I've seen in the last 15 years. He has already realised that David Davis' actions will rub off well on him and the Tories, as we saw when he rushed to praise Davis' actions. It'll do something to start burying memories of Tory sleaze when a front bench conservative puts his seat up for grabs on a matter of principle, in reaction to what most people recognise to a vote steeped in Labour sleaze.
From what I've seen, heard and read, David Davis' actions aren't being interpreted by most of us ordinary folk as the pundits and commentators (and the murdoch press- who let us not forget are in favour of the 42 days) as a machiavellian plot to get the Tory leadership, but as a refreshing break from careerist politics and Westminster party political manoevring
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Finally we have a politician that is willing to put his career on the line for his beliefs(based on the fact that if he kept his head down he was odds on to be in the next government) and the BBC yet again delivers views rather than facts. More to the point Labour held views. Well done David, from what I read and hear most people are fully behind you and the message you are trying to discuss goes right to the route of British culture. tut tut BBC-again.
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and oh yes.. WELL DONE IRELAND!!
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Brown's comment that Davis resigning demonstrates divisions in the Conservative party is laughable given the bashing his own party gave him in the Commons vote.
So much respect for Mr. Davis. Don't need to say more...
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David Davis has taken a stand about something he passionately believes in and good for him. We need far more warrior politicians as opposed to the drab, unispiring, talentless rabble that in particular occupy the government front bench as present.
This move is far more likely to cause trouble for the Labour government. It is Labour who faced a large rebellion on the terror legislation vote not the virtully unanimous parliamentary Conservative Party. Labour are declaring this a stunt in order to duck a debate which they have already lost. A contested by-election would see big disagreements between those in the Labour Party aired for all to see.
If Gordon Brown for one moment thinks this is a positive fortune altering event he has another thing coming. People remember the election that was never called, the poor regulation of the financial system that led to Northern Rock costing billions, vast swathes of personal data being lost, early release from prison because there are thousands of new crimes and not enough new prison places, stealth taxes bleeding hard working people dry and the coup de grace-abolishing the ten pence tax rate and rewriting the budget with billions in deferred taxation to pay for this years con.
The Tories emerge as the party of principle with Davis carrying the flag. Labour emerge having done dirty political deals to erode civil liberties adding another cock up to the growing list.
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#137 mikepko, Re snoping, Are you back on the spelling and grammar thing, you got your fingers burnt last time, its not remotely clever to criticise peoples typing errors, some people like your self whose only achievment in life is to write a grammaticaly correct letter should appreciate that some of us who are self taught and have other things to do have to type as fast as were able sometimes making mistakes as is evident on these blogs by supporters of all groups.
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Nick.You know that what I said about Tories closing ranks when under threat is true. Well if you did'nt you do now, the Tories on these blogs are a particularly sad bunch, you say what you think and report what you see but thats not what they want. Their policy is "if you dont say what we want you to say then dont say it, we dont want to hear bad things said against the Tories only against Labour" and practically every Tory post is saying just that in their own way.
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QueryAlex_B wrote:
"A Noble deed? Rubbish, he'll get safely re-elected but cost the British taxpayer dosh.
Anyone know just how much running an unneeded by-election will cost the British public?"
I think it's about £80,000 in this particular case.
But if you're worried about taxpayers' money being wasted on this sole issue, look at the £20 BILLION being touted for ID cards.
Personally, I think £80,000 and the opportunity to have a voice on the issue of dilution of our civil liberties a bargain in comparison.
I think DD is genuine but, stunt or nay, it's brought an extremely important topic into the open forum for the public to decide. Absolute genius. Wish there were more politicians like him. If you're not concerned about your personal freedom, then you don't deserve to moan when you are controlled and spied upon by the suits at Westminster who, incidentally, are supposed to work FOR us.
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I'm puzzled by the support he is getting.
To me, this is self-indulgent posturing.
What point is he making?
How on earth is this "a demonstration of his principles" ?
There is a honourable position about resigning from government if you disagree with its policy. That would be very admirable.
But resigning from opposition on a policy your party opposes, that you fought against in Parliament, and it is your job to lead that opposition...?
How does that demonstrate anything at all ?
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You have put to much effort into something that is really obvious. It's just a Tory scam to divert attention away from the fact that they are just as greedy and sleazy as they ever were. Expenses! Need we say more. I think you should do a propper bit of journalism and expose the Tories scam instead of colluding with them. But then again you were a leading little Tory whilst at uni. Anyway don't think your bias and preferences don't show through.
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why are some of the comments being erased I was no 163 now it is not there where has it gone
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"Truth is, Davis is decent!
WHY is it we spend our lives criticising politicians for being corrupt, greedy and sleazy then, when one of them does something noble, we start looking for the angle?
We tear them apart when we hear about their expenses fiddles, their affairs, the fact they're only in politics for what THEY can get out of it, yet the minute one of them resigns on a principle our immediate reaction is one of suspicion and "what's in it for him?"
So when David Davis quit as an MP and Shadow Home Secretary last week over government plans to detain terrorist suspects for 42 days, it took just minutes for the whispers to start.
"It's a stunt," they said. "He wants Cameron's job," they said. "He's bonkers and just attention-seeking," they said.
Well, I'm sorry, I don't think he was.
What do you think? Click here to let us know
I think he was trying to draw attention to the fact that bit by bit this country's freedoms are being obliterated by a flailing, self-serving government which wants to control everything we do ? the scary part being they don't have the wit or the collective intelligence to do it properly.
Respect
I don't agree with Davis's stance on the 42-day terrorism law (I'll explain why later) but I absolutely respect the fact he's willing to put his career and his reputation on the line for something he passionately believes in.
Can you see Cameron doing it? Or Brown?
The fact is (agree with him or not) most people in this country are behind Davis for the simple reason that at last here's a politician who sees what they see, who fears what they fear and is prepared to do something about it.
And yes, he may well have alienated himself from his party, he may well have walked away from a position of influence but he HAS connected with huge numbers of people who, like him, are terrified about the erosion of civil liberties.
I'm talking about decent, ordinary people SICK of being monitored 24/7 by CCTV cameras, SICK of having microchips put into their wheelie bins, SICK of being branded (and prosecuted) as racists because they disagree with the government's politically correct stance and SICK of having anti-terrorist laws used against them over trivia instead of against those monsters who want to maim and murder us.
Dirty
And all the MPs now screaming about how stupid Davis is, how futile his resignation was, are only doing it because never in a million years can they ever imagine themselves doing anything based on principle. Because in 21st century politics principle has become a dirty word and the Westminster gravy train is overflowing with politicians too smug, too selfish and too scared to step off it for anything as ludicrous as a principle.
As for those carpers screaming that, whatever Davis believes in, he can't achieve anything from the oblivion of the back benches?
Well, I think the British people might disagree, because whether they're with him on the 42-day issue or not, the fact remains he HAS distinguished himself as a man willing to stand up and be counted ? even at the cost of his career.
That might make him niaive, but it also makes him a pretty special bloke, who people might think would have been a better leader than the lite, disingenuous Mr Cameron.
And just for the record (and unlike Davis) I think we SHOULD be able to hold terrorist suspects who pose a REAL threat to this country for as long as it takes to convict them. Because if detaining them for 42 days, 90 days or 420 days stops one single Brit being blown up ? then it's worth it!
But what does it say about us as a society that when a politician does something decent, something moral and something at huge cost to himself, he's slated as a fool?"
An article posted by Carol Malone on this issue that deeserves attention.
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Now call me cynical but what happened to all the furore about conservative sleaze? (ie creative expense claims). Oh! I know something a lot more important cropped up. Yes thank God the BBC news editor has decided that DD resigning to fight a by election on civil liberties is a big issue. I must say The news editor's in depth analysis of the possible permutations as to what could be the outcome of this world shattering event are head spinning. He has fair wetted my appetite to see what outcome will be. I'm "shivering with anticipation".
Civil liberties are of course very important and if DD is genuine then I expect to see him standing up for all libertarian causes. Anyway here's my take on it. It is nothing more than a stunt to deflect attention from recent Tory sleaze. It's as simple as that. I can't believe that somebody who is quite clearly to the right of his party is going to be a champion for civil liberties.
Any way must dash . Got a very very big expense return to fill out.
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270:
The DD affair has certainly deflected criticism away from sleazegate but it has also deflected attention away from The Government's poor record at safekeeping our secrets as well as other matters of concern including the ecomomy. It works both ways and explains why I believe his antics were principled but wrong. The media were entitled to jump on it but in the scheme of things there are far more important matters to discuss than the actions of one rogue MP.
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271:
edit: 'economy'
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i must say this shows integrity for the conservatives and will gain them more support.
unfortunately the BBC are a little biased against the blue corner which is a shame but does not seem to be fooling people.
Labour will probably not stand against him because it will draw more attention, if they ignore it then it will probably go away.
Labour seem to be pulling all the stops the show the Conservaties in a bad way and all the time Labour are getting weaker in the polls.
i fully support Mr Davies and think he did the right thing
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David Davis's move may be bad for the Conservative party, but that is not the point. Magna Carta trumps party politics because without a proper constitution, there would be no party politics; we would eventually end up in a totalitarian state. It would be inaccurate to say that the so-called Westminster village is cut off from the real world, but on this issue it seems that some correspondents simply don't get it. Magna Carta matters more than who is winning or losing in the politics of the day, and more than the result of the next general election.
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I am sure davis knows he will win the seat or he would not have resigned his seat. with tories so far ahead in the polls its a certainty. be brave when you have something to lose
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