Premier performance?
Shares in Smith soared last night. As Labour MP's and peers poured out of the Parliamentary Labour Party meeting all were agreed that Jacqui the home secretary had put in the performance of her life. Some went further and claimed that this was the best ministerial performance in the past year or two.
Even those Labour MPs, who still refuse to vote for 42 days - and there are still quite a few - know that the home secretary was not the one to come up with the idea. Instead she was handed this poisoned chalice by Gordon Brown.
Last night in the lobby, some even dared think whether our Jacqui might be the next leader that Labour is looking for. Who better, goes the theory, than a straight-talking Midlands mum, an Aston Villa season ticket holder, who still holidays in a caravan in North Wales to take on the Tory toff Cameron.
Labour's electoral system tends to favour women. Look at Harriet Harman's surprisingly good performance in the deputy leader contest. Now, of course, as Labour ministers keep telling me there are now no vacancies but expect the name of Smith to join those of Millibands and Purnell, Straw and Johnson in the list of candidates to succeed Gordon after he stands down or maybe after he's pushed.
I'm 
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Perhaps the Home Secretary does have hidden talents - I believe she was the government's chief whip before taking over at the Home Office! However, this is still the individual that refused to give the police (in England and Wales, and British Transport Police everywhere) the settlement - that had been agreed through arbitration.
The list at the end there, potential sucessors, is completely lacking in political ability. In Scotland, any of the above taking over would cause Labour's vote to shrink even more dramatically - especially if Wendy Alexander were still in charge of Labour at Holyrood. I dont say that because I value or rate Brown in any way, he is clearly just as incompetent as those listed. What Labour has to ask itself is (GB-wide) would the damage inflicted on the party by a challenge be worth it: or is it better to simply accept defeat in 2010 (on the basis it would be better to lose then, than spend a decade or more in the political wildernesss).
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Ann Widdecombe will back Government on 42 days
The former Shadow Home Secretary Ann Widdecombe has confirmed that she's likely to vote with the Government on 42 days pre-trial detention:
"My reasoning is very simple indeed: it's that if we have a state of emergency then the government should be able to ask parliament for emergency powers, as we did for example over Northern Ireland ? providing that the legislation does not remain on the statute books indefinitely until somebody gets around to repealing it."
Anne Widdecombe is a prime and shining example of one Conservative at least, with a cartload of common sense, such a shame she is standing down at the next GE. Conservative of her qualities are becoming fewer and further between.
I hope others will follow her sensible example.
Far better to err on the side of caution than be caught wanting, the cost in lives could be far too high a price to pay if the worst were ever to happen.
People with a modicum of common sense take out insurance to protect against any unforseen circumstances and would be disaster, So should HMG.
Terrorism is a real and ongoing threat in this country, all the security services agree with that and we ignore it at our peril.
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If this woman was chosen to succeed Brown the labour party would be going from bad to worse.
I despair for my children's future, these incompetents are running this country into the ground whilst we work our guts out to just keep above water.
I am Joe normal EX labour voter, I am very angry seeing my hard earned taxes being squandered at every turn.
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Some people haven't properly understood the specific threat the new law was tailored to address or the safeguards that have been built into it. They allowed habitual and reactive gesture politics and playing to the gallery to get in the way but as the moment of reckoning arrives playing at being politicians is giving way to something more serious. How much of that is down to Jacqui Smith or backbench MP's is so much fluff. The deal is isn't perfect but good enough, and life moves on.
Meanwhile, the media ego is obsessing leadership issues. The Prime Minister had his brush with death but has the same pixie dust quality about him like Steve Jobs. Taken within a fraction of a percentage of oblivion he's bouncing back like a superstar. A lesser man would've been broken or knocked to his knees but Gordon Brown's ability to spot opportunity and persevere is typical of an archetypal character like himself. Some people call this luck. Others call it genius.
As the Prime Minister's horizons broaden, I'd like to see him take on the big corporations who are fighting to block the single biggest piece of corporate governance legislation the European Union has ever considered. In Rome, the Pope is working on his most significant keynote to date that helps challenge their immorality. It is notable the Ieyasu Tokugawa, who the Prime Minister reminds me of, challenged their authority and laid the foundation of a 300 year renaissance.
All Hail Blessed Leader! (Normal service is now restored.)
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@Kiwilegs, that is nonsense, sorry but we didn't need all these powers when we had the IRA running bombing campaigns and we don't need them now.
All these new laws are doing is curtailing our rights as citizens, if you cannot see that then you are blind.
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The 42 days detention proposal is nothing to do with terrorism, it's about macho politics dreamed up by Gordon Brown in an attempt to hide his cowardice in not opposing Blair over Iraq. Between them, these two pathetic politicians, those in other parties and those in the media who either supported or did not speak out strongly enough against the illegal invasion have stained the name of Britain and the Labour Party for ever.
The few decent Labour MPs that are left should treat these proposals with contempt and not give in to the career politicians in the party who do not have the guts or the integrity to do what is right and stop trying to defend the indefensible as they did when supporting Blair the deluded con man.
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Not sure Jacqui Smith has the experience to be leader- although maybe she has the charisma. Milliband looks like he has Gordon Brown?s inability to connect with the public. Purnell ? is he known well enough by the public at large to be considered? Gordon could maybe avoid the seemingly inevitable train wreck if he threw open the opportunity to become Labour leader and fuel an Obama / Clinton Style fight between himself other contenders over a period of 3 months, with the expectation that the winner will then be required to go to the country for a General election within say 4 months on winning the Labour leadership. Off the back of 3 months of positive campaigning maybe Labour could avoid what is seemingly almost certain defeat and it gives Gordon a fighting chance of securing a real mandate.
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I agree with tomireland. We lived through all the IRA campaign without 42 days. the extension could make the security services lax in their approach to collecting evidence. We all know how a countdown timer focuses the mind.
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Nick
If Jacqui Smith can rise to the top of the pecking order on that basis that on one occasion she spoke well and skilfully, trying to defend a piece of bad legislation to a group of worried MPs, then there really IS a shortage of talent in New Labour...
And she still did not explain coherently on the Today Programme why a further erosion of the rule of law is needed in the form of a power for 42 day detention or why emergency legislation at the time or an amendment to the Civil Contingencies Act now would not address any potential threat.
So if this is "the best ministerial performance in the past year or two" we are in serious trouble.
I think she is still part of the problem, not part of the solution. I retiterate, Nick, that this is party politics of the worst sort designed to make GB looks strong where he is weak.
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She might be a potential leader, but only in Opposition.
I can understand (but don't agree) the reasons for 42 days. But I am more concerned about how the law would be abused by some councils, which has been seen in similar circumstances recently.
But 42 days is not required. The Home Secretary has at her disposal a whole raft of emergency powers which can be used if circumstances dictate.
That is a more sensible approach.
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Problem with that theory Nick is that her seat in Redditch is looking very vulnerable. The conservatives will do well in the Midlands and the doughnut strategy could see a lot of the Birmingham sattelite seats falling to the Tories.
Her majority at the last election was a mere 3000 votes. As the highest placed woman in cabinet come the election she will be forced to go campaigning all over which would leave her seat open to challenge.
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The woman that lost the personal financial records of 25 million people? The woman theat Presides over illegal immigration whilst illegal immigrants are working in her department? Oh yeah, that's a safe pair of hands.
Please labour, please do give her the job. Then labour will be utterly and totally destroyed at the next election.
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I asked in response to your previous comment for a lawyer to explain the difference between the proposed legislation and the Civil Contingencies Act (and its predecessors) which seem to me to provide for the possibility of longer (indeterminate??) detention in emergency situations, but without the same level of judicial protection. If that is correct, I fail to understand the level of supposedly principled opposition to the more tightly-drawn 42 day proposal. There was one response, but not at the level of authority I was looking for. Surely this is what the BBC is supposed to do - inform and explain? Instead we get gossip and supposition at the Coronation Street level, and that is not good enough in my opinion.
I think that this issue has illustrated very well a major problem with our political system, in that whoever is in power the opposition feels it necessary to denounce almost every government action on principle. This is not a party political point - both sides are guilty - but taking the present issue as an example, does anyone believe that a Cameron governmment would revert to 7 day detention? or 14 days?
As for possible future PM's, I can see three credible candidates on the government benches (Milliband, Smith, and Johnson), but none on the opposition side with the possible (but not probable)exception of Cameron. Can anyone suggest anyone else?
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Why would it matter who is leader of labour.
The party has never looked like listening to anything from, what was, their voters.
Labour lied, taxed, regulated, went health and safety mad, banned, helped everyone but the wage earning people of the country.
What part of this would make them a party worth voteing for.
Will pubs, working mens clubs, small business owners or their patrons want to see labour go on to even greater restrictions.
The biggest problem now is
Who else to vote for
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5#
I am in good company as there is not a fag paper between my opinion and that of Anne Widdecombe. We learned a lot out of Ireland , that was then, this is the here and now
This is the fast moving times of the Computer, the Mobile Phone etc.
I will move forward and leave Luddite thinking to those who feel at ease with it.
I live for now ,this day and age, technology has moved on vastly. At a tremendous rate since the IRA troubles. So has my thinking.
Please stay safe in your comfort zone of the past.
I will live my life in this dangerous day and age and hope people are sensible enough to take precations to safeguard me and mine.
We will agree to differ.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
@number 11, you are correct that the civil contingencies bill provides for all of the measures that this new 42 day legislation covers and more besides, but it can only be enacted in an officially declared state of emergency. I think that the Government want to allow this 42 day measurement into law, with all the civil liberties safeguards, and then later on, table amendments in committees or in other bills that will, piece by piece, remove all the safeguards so that this 42 day legislation can be adopted to cover more and more "potential" crime. Eventually perhaps visiting the wrong website may create a reason for detention without charge.
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Nick
I realise that this is the key issue that's doing the rounds at the moment - fair enough.
However, what about everything else that's (supposed) to be going on?
I would echo a comment on yesterday's post about the utter disgrace that has people dying from cancer because New Labour doesn't want a "two tier" NHS.
IMO, this was the moment when this Administration categorically lost its "Licence to Operate" - as they say in business.
It makes me absolutely spitting with anger.
This Administration is most definitely now the Problem, and never again (if it ever was) the Solution.
For the record, this 42 mularkey is just plain wrong.
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Nick, I always read your blog but have never felt the need to comment, even had to join up to do so today! It would be a disaster for Smith to progress any further, with the standing of politicians at an all time low she refuses to uphold a recommendation on police pay made by an independent body. She would also need to be parachuted into another constituency because her majority in Redditch is wafer thin.
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Kiwilegs, why have the Government not banned bee-keeping? Statistically you are more likely to be killed by a bee sting than by a terrorist.
You may decide to give in to fear and live as a coward and choose to restrict your liberties any way you wish, but I am NOT afraid, and I will never ever live in fear, because fear is the state that the powers that be need us to live in to give in to their plans to control everyone.
I am not giving in to the terrorists (of the laughable calibre that cannot even get a small car fire going properly), nor shall I give in to Government tyranny. Even if it is implemented in tiny steps.
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#13, if Cameron is to win at the next GE I think he needs to rework his front bench (specifically to move George Osborne into a much more low profile position).
For Labour, my opinion is that they thought the transition to Brown would be enough to present the image of a "re-born" party (thus bypassing the usual problems associated with multi-term governments). So far this has failed spectacularly and it looks like they need a plan B, fast. I'm sure that no one at party HQ is saying that a term in opposition would be good for the party in the long term (at least not out loud), so maybe they need to find an alternative? However, having said that, if Cameron cannot create an electable package and if Boris makes a mess of London during the next 18 months then maybe Labour would limp over the line anyway? Just my thoughts.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Jaqui smith may have shown promise as a future leader but surely she hasn't had enough experience at the top level. No one had heard of her before last July.
I suggest that this article is a bit of trouble making. Trying to show a split and desperately cling on to the idea of a leadership contest.
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Furthermore, Charles, Japan under the 250-year rule of the Tokugawas was a period of repression, isolation and stagnation -- not a renaissance! Why else do you think exploited farmers continued to revolt throughout those centuries, even though they knew they faced certain death for doing so? Why else do you think peasants and samurai alike fought so readily to topple Tokugawa's regime in the mid-19th century?
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She seems more likeable than Brown, but as was said earlier her constituency is marginal and on the current polls she'll be toast at the GE. But if she were to end up as PM she might come through OK as leaders tend to get a boost in their contituency vote. I can't see Labour ditching Brown though. Having 2 unelected PM's in 1 parliament would be tantamount to sticking 2 fingers up at the electorate, and if they don't drop Brown before the summer recess then the new leader wouldn't have enough time to establish themselves before the GE. The fact Labour MP's are so excited after her PLP performance is more a reflection of how low their morale is that anyone who gives a good account of themselves is suddenly seen as the Messiah.
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4. At 10:46 am on 03 Jun 2008, Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
"Some people haven't properly understood the specific threat the new law was tailored to address or the safeguards that have been built into it."
Utter piffle! People disagree that the threat even exists. There are no terrorists who have been released to attack the public because the police ran out of time to investigate. It simply has not happened.
I'm seriously starting to question whether or not you've been paid to post here. Either that or I want some of whatever drug you're on because you sure aren't looking at the same world I am.
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There can be no reason that the UK requires greater powers of detention than other western democracies. It's really about Brown trying to look tough and saving face. Yet Jaqui Smith on Radio 4's Today programme (3rd June) implausibly implores us as she giggles: "Trust me, as a minister, as a Home Secretary"
This would be from the same government that told us that Sadam could launch weapons of mass destruction in 45 minutes. The same government that told us the EU constitution was just "a tidying up exercise". The same government that pretends the Lisbon Treaty is completely different to the earlier constitution. The same government that allows anti-terror legislation to be used to evict an OAP from their conference for heckling. The same government that has empowered local councils to snoop on law abiding citizens.
Who are they trying to kid? This government has lost all credibility.
When Brown was Chancellor, he used to pretend he was 'prudent'. Now the government is borrowing billions, plunging us ever deeper into debt to cover up the mess left by his bungling incompetence.
Frankly, if Gordon Brown promised "fine weather", I would build an ark.
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I think you need to go and have a lie down in a darkened room Nick.Ms Smith is truly inept which is saying something for this government of incompetent imbeciles.
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22# think you have said enough, if you do not agree with people, that is your right. What definately is not your right is to accuse people of being on anything, even as a metaphor.
I take exception to the remark which was totally uncalled for. My opinion is of equal value to yours or do you have extra voting rights?
As for what Anne Widdecombe said, I not only read it in full I also said there was not a fag paper to chose between the two of our opinions. They happen to be one and the same.
We do not yet know and will not know until Jacqui Smith gets onto her feet just exactly what the Govenment is promising.
Labour rebels have also passed the same remark, they seem not at ease with it. So hold your thunder and do not jump to conclusions until you know exactly what the Home Secretary has in mind.
In the meantime the only thing I have ever been on is Tea and an occasionally a coffee.
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4 CEH:
Charles,
Did I bump into you last night on one of my regular out of body experiences? I'm sure it was you. I was floating above the city trying a bit of remote viewing (you know that stuff the CIA were into) and bang, I'm sure I bumped into you. You certainly looked relaxed, legs crossed, eyes closed, chanting away. What was it you were chanting? Oh yeah, 'I am the great zen protector of Gordon the great.' It got a bit wearing after a while, on and on you went, but I see that you've returned from your flight and you're still chanting it.
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Me thinks Dr Brown is under estimated
Who put the Mac in MacHiavelli?
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Sort of ironic that the one measure Brown took to try and look tough, he's ended up making himself weaker. As much as I would hate to see Labour's collapse lead to another Tory government, I believe this is a measure that needs to be defeated at all costs.
Simply put, the government have put forward no argument or any evidence to say that the time without charge needs increasing. If they could produce any evidence to back up their claims about it actually being needed there might be a case but only 3 times have suspects been held more then 14 days and all 3 were found innocent and the police chiefs actually said that they were comfortablely in the time limit. Never during the IRA terror campaign were these measures needed and that was a far more severe threat then we face now. If you want to defeat terrorism it helps if you don?t do their job for them. The main aim of terrorism is to cause terror, and curtailing Civil Liberties just does their job for them. People forget that the terrorists we are facing are fascists themselves, anyone remember the radical Islamic protestors demanding an end to free speech?
Another argument the government have failed to address is the isolation of the Islamic community. If we really want to defeat terrorism then just locking up individual terrorists is not the answer, we need to cut the stem of terrorism not pull off the petals. We should reach out to the Islamic communities, not isolate them, as this measure will do. An innocent Muslim being released after 42 days would just divide the Islamic community and that is where radicalism thrives. I?m sure terrorists are dreaming of the propaganda they could generate from this eventuality. If you want more young Muslims to become terrorists, support this measure because that is exactly what it will do. Not so long ago the same government was saying that we need Muslims to help the police if we are to defeat terrorism, and for once they were right, but they?ve now contradicted themselves in true New Labour style by attempting to make the Islamic community not trust the police. How can we expect Muslims to trust the police when innocent Muslims are being taken from their families without explanation and undergone over a month of intensive interrogation? Isn?t it funny that we only learn that person X was a terrorist after they?ve been arrested? Read the papers, only after the person has been stopped do we hear that he watched videos of 9/11 or talked about killing innocents, if the Islamic community trusted the police enough to reveal this to them before the arrest then we would see a very swift end to terrorism. This measure, however, goes the other way and will just lead to fear and Islamophobia. Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither and lose both.
As for the Labour leadership challenge, I was hoping to see Alan Johnson be a major contender, he seems to be the most competent of the Cabinet although that fiasco with the NHS might stop his popularity. I bet Labour are kicking themselves that they couldn?t hold on to Vince Cable, the best MP this country currently has.
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#21 colinefb - I agree, especially about Osborne. The problem for Cameron is that I just don't see who he can bring in to strengthen his existing team, which seems to me to be woefully weak. No doubt somebody will put my mind at rest and point to the hidden talent on the opposition benches.
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Nick
In case anyone still doesn't think the authorities are abusing current powers, in today's news:
1. A man was not allowed on an aeroplane because he was wearing a t-shirt showing a cartoon character
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7431640.stm)
2. Three people were arrested at Heathrow bus station for wearing t-shirts objecting to a third runway http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jun/03/travelandtransport.theairlineindustry
We certainly need 42 day detention for dangerous subversives like these!
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Oh come on Nick!
The majority of the British population are in favour of 42 days and even more.
The majority of the British have nothing to be afraid of and nothing to shame them when confronted by terror police.
If this does not go through and something happens to anyone in a terror attack because the police would not have sufficient time to investigate further (to avoid terrorists disasters), one should then challenge the Tory Leader in court and blame him for all that happens.
Is this not the way forward Nick?
Is that not the direction we're moving in modern days? The Government (which ever party in Government) is blamed for everything, but then again, this would be the opposition's fault.
Where were these so called Liberty and freedom of speech Campaigners when Britain used to gag all opposition in other countries that wanted independence from the British rule?
Let us all hope that even if this 42 days detention only stops one idiotic maniac in his/her tracks for as long as we live, it would still be worth while the effort and money, because the victim could have well and truly be ourselves, or our loved ones.
Have a nice day Nick.
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1 - If she wants to be leader she needs to look for a new safe seat (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath perhaps?).
2 - Why is the official government position to make out that anyone who doesn't agree that it's a wonderful idea to let them have the right to lock up anyone they fancy for 42 days is a bit thick and soft in the 'war on terror'? Personally I'd prefer not to let this bunch of dimwits (or any governmnet for that matter) have such powers.
3 - Why 42 days? Why not 30, or 50? There's no rhyme or reason, except they think they can get this figure through. If they do, no doubt they will come back in a year and say we need 60 days!
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The best I can say for Jacqui Smith is that she comes across as a normal human being, unlike Mr Brown, but she hasn't shown any competence as Home Secretary yet and so it is ridiculous to start pushing her for PM on the basis of one private speech.
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There are no meaningful safeguards built in to the legislation ... imagine how any government of the day would react (party politically) if the opposition were even to question the need to hold any number of individuals for the total 42 days. Someone claimed opponents of the bill are only playing at making political gestures: the whole bill itself is nothing but a political gesture! "I am tougher than him on terrorism".
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I agree with DavidGinsberg @11 - Redditch is now a prime Tory target.
We_are_not_at_war @22 and @25 - Thanks for puncturing Chuck E Hogwash's pompous profoundities.
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"The majority of the British have nothing to be afraid of and nothing to shame them when confronted by terror police."
Tell that to what's left of Jean-Charles de Menezes.
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Jacqui Smith for Prime Minister? Noooo!!!! That would just about finish off Labour.
On the 42 days issue she's ignoring what nearly everyone in the country wants.
She commissioned a report from the Drugs Advisory Council on the classification of cannabis, and then ignored what they said. She had obviously made up her mind already, but she wanted to be able to say "I have no personal views on this matter, I am simply following the scientific advice." So she spent public money to try to hide her political views. She is the worst sort of devious politician.
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Ieyasu Tokugawa brought in the rule of law, stamped out banditary. This compares well with Britain's Henry II. This created a growth of trade and culture in Japan that is at least equal to the renaissance Europe experienced.
Some people think the closing of Japan was understandable and quite savvy considering the external threats during its time but when the time came for another change Japan made the choice with equal decisiveness.
As Britain needs more discipline and sociability, so Japan is changing today and becoming more creative and open. Both government's have learned from each other and the general picture if this unfolds well looks quite reasonable.
The emerging threats are quite sizable in terms of weaponry, communications, and zealotry. That's not saying they will happen or succeed but people crunching the numbers know they're greater than zero. We need some law that sits between an IRA style outrage and, say, a nuke falling out of the sky. This law seems to fill that gap and could help save precious time and avoid panic measures.
Looking beyond enforcement, the government seems to be pushing ahead with education and community outreach to calm communities and bring people together. Again, this is one half of the package people forget about as they jump at the bogeymen in their own minds. People tend to judge others through the lens of their own mind, and that may be something they wish to reflect on.
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Re 24#
dhwilkinson: absolutely right. This is media spin. I will be David Cameron's official biographer before Jacqui Smith is Prime Minister or Leader of the Labour Party.
Nick Robinson must be bored to post this nonsense. I am suspicious that he is trying create his own news agenda. I hope not.
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#2 Actually all of the security services DO agree on the ongoing threat. But if I understand it it is only certain sections of the police who are vociferous in their support of 42 days.
When you think about the Newsnight report on the surveillance of 68 activists that is not reassuring. The Doors as an extremist organisation. Police feeding the press with scaremonger stories and then investigating them.
As for the preparedness and precautionary principle - rubbish!
If the crisis has not happened then how do you know whether you needed 42 or 41 or 781?
You don't because its a non argument. Emergency legislation could be prepared and sit and wait and then you could fill in the dots on the basis of hard information.
#4 This is the party of Alistair Campbell and the spin meisters. Most people these days would check if Brown said it was day. You are going to try and write off the simmering internal Labour problems as down to the media? How many of the top journalists are card carrying Labour supporters who might take a gentle steer. Media ego or people trying to distract from core issues.
As for Labours chances at the next election consider that Ms. Smith has looked vaguely competent for a week (with all barring the police) and she is being tipped as a leader. If that icon of mediocrity John Major was New Labour he would be in with a really positive chance.
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ScepticMax -- thank you.
No sane person who values Western civilisation (democracy, liberty, the rule of law) would appreciatively liken any Prime Minister or President to a brutal warlord and feudal fascist.
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Those in this blog and elsewhere who support the 42 day proposal miss some very key points about the opposition to it. In the 90 day debate under Tony Blair, the opposition had the same argument. It is simply that judicial oversight is necessary. If you want to hold someone for any length of time without charge, you should put your case in front of a judge. Furthermore, if post charge questioning was permitted and intercept evidence was usable in court, then there would be no requirement for more than, say, 14 days. But the Government has resisted both these matters. What is interesting is that the Government's argument continues to be simply that, "we might need these powers." What they fail to do is actually provide any supportive evidence of why they need the powers, and why those alternatives that have been put forward by the opposition on multiple occasions are not acceptable.
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Jacqui Smith as next Labour leader ? Pause for thought -
Tony Blair had high appeal in the country and low appeal in a room-full of Labour MPs.
Pre-PM Brown had higher appeal than Blair in a room-full of Labour MPs.
Jacqui Smith has impressed a room-full of Labour MPs.
Hmm - -
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Her talents are so hidden that I am unable to see them.
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If she has talent, she's been hiding it really really really well.
She has been humiliated and heckled over police pay, and now she is doing this country another great disservice over 42-day detention.
Then again, she probably wouldn't be as bad as Brown.
http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com
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Charles, Ieyasu stamped out bandity only for it to be replaced with repression, opressive taxation and a steadily growing number of peasants' revolts throughout the Tokugawa period. Trade and culture flourished as a result of patronage by merchants as much as samurai.
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I've consulted for failing companies and did voluntary work with the down and out. I've seen where arrogance and marginalisation takes people and it's not pretty. Some of those companies are gone, and some of those people are now dead.
The British tend to lack confidence and sociability at an individual, corporate, and national level. These comments are full of it with people over-reacting and getting into personal insults. This is immature and it's better people get over it.
Gordon Brown is bringing some measure of order and consensus to politics, and building for the long-term. People may dislike the genie being forced back into the bottle but it's better than going off the rails. And that's something to be grateful for.
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CEH 44:
Pheeew! Charles, for a moment I really believed that the government were floundering around on this terrorism thing, if you'd have just mentioned 'education and community outreach' earlier this whole debate about extending detention would have seemed so pointless.
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Classic case of a not-listening Government... the people don't want it but they lock themselves in a room and convince each other it is the "right thing to do". Garbage, if you arrest someone then you must have evidence or at least reason and if you have neither then you have no right.
i hope they lose lose lose!
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Smith as Leader?
Sheesh, that would be, well, terrible.
People need to trust GB, I think he will come through in the end.
He has had a rocky (amend: dreadful) end to his first year in charge, yet people forget the smooth sailing that came before.
I have no doubt he is a Leader and has the best interests of the country at heart.
What's the alternative? A Tory Party who have no cohesive policies and who have a front bench near full of Toff's.
And because they're Toff's, they have no interest in low earning families; primarily because they don't understand the concept of being poor.
At this point I await the 10p issue to be brought up.
But when you think of all the measures that the Tories opposed in helping poor families, it soon puts into context which Party has the broader interests of UK in mind.
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We_are_not_at_war, What a refreshing change to read the kind of reasoned and wise writing of someone capable of sound reason and good judgement.
"The majority of the British have nothing to be afraid of and nothing to shame them when confronted by terror police."
Jean-Charles de Menezes is merely the grizzly end of the stick. There are hundreds of thousands of completely ordinary innocent people, from all races and religions and backgrounds, who have been arrested and detained for days, Submitting their DNA to be permanently stored in Government databases then released without charge. Their lives blighted without recourse to common justice.
More than 90% of those arrested and detained for alleged terrorism offences have been completely innocent, and of the rest, the majority where not actually planning terrorist offences, but merely had literature that has been banned.
My comment earlier about being arrested merely for visiting the wrong website still stands. People can already be arrested and charged and imprisoned for merely downloading books. Once these laws are in place, greedy politicians cannot help themselves, they have to slowly increase the terms and range of these laws to grab ever more power.
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40#How dare you!!!!
How many 70+ year old grandmother junkies have you had to deal with ?
The worst my generation ever did, was smoke and I never, ever had that filthy habit.
Nor has any of our offspring or their offspring and none as far as I am aware ever resorted to taking drugs. Only weak characters do that.
This is still a free Country where the last I heard, I have the right along with the next person to express my views whether you agree with them or not. Without been accused of being a Junkie, because you do not share my views.
Who the hell do you think you are?
It is your right to disagree and I would defend that right.
What definately is NOT YOUR RIGHT! is to suggest people are addicts because you had the misfortune to deal with it.
It has been my good fortune never, ever to have come across it in my lifetime.
Having said that I am very particular with the company I keep. And I have never knowingly broken any law in this Country EVER!!! not even a parking ticket or motoring fine EVER!!!!!!!
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Would Labour risk electing someone who's about to lose her seat?
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wow; the thought of someone who's actively pushing for the right to lock up innocent people for 42 days just because they look foreign or follow the muslim faith is pretty scary stuff.
If you have the evidence then charge them.
If the evidence isn't admissable in court then change the law to make it admissable but with caveats to safeguard various aspects.
If, after that, you still don't have enough evidence to charge them then you had no right to arrest them in the first place and they should go free.
If the only evidence you have is an encypted file that you can't open, then why were they a suspect in the first place if you couldn't see that file?
That's it; that's the end of the argument; the pro-42 days arguments are 100% flawed/invalid. In fact it should be reduced to no more than a handful of days at the most.
Terrorism is no different to any other crime, don't treat it differently as there's no logical reason for a differential.
Labour; stop using terrorism to inflict terror on your own people. It's the labour MPs who are creating the terror; attempting to push through legislation which gives them the right to lock up people they don't agree with for 42 days.
This is *not* detention without trial, this *is* detention without charge. Big big difference.
By passing such laws they'd be half-way there when it comes to comparisons about how Nazi Germany started their path through to the holocaust.
DO NOT DO IT
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Nick,
I haven't had so much fun in a long time. Some of the views posted on here are beyond parody.
The individuals who are in support of Smith and 42 days detention need to stop kidding us on. There is no prospect that holding anyone for 42 days will bring about safety and security in this country. I repeat, No Chance!
So instead, the government are intending to pretend that we can lock up foreginers, or those who associate with foreginers, or even those who we think might one day commit a crime, and that this will make us secure.
How often have we heard views expressed along the lines of, "we knew who dunnit, but we didn't have the evidence to put them away"?
Unfortunately for the police and other agencies, that is why we have a court system. The alternative is to lock people up and throw away the key (or execute them).
So Kiwilegs, how far are you prepared to allow the government to go in infringing our rights just so that you can feel safer?
As for Smith as Leader, I am still laughing at the notion!
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Good fun this!
Everyone in the Conservative Party want Gordon to go or be pushed.
On the other hand:
Everyone in the Labour Party want Dave and Gideon to be left alone and continue to run it for the Conservatives.
Tories are a bit too thick to decipher this but I'm hoping that everyone else gets the picture.
Here's to a Fourth Victory
Keep it up!
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If Jackie Smith becomes Labour leader I will despair of this country. To my mind she epitomises the worst of New Labour...bossy, humourless and totally without any charisma at all...the living embodiment of the nanny state. I am female but this type of woman should not be given the time of day let alone a ministerial position. She's not happy unless she's bossing people about and controlling absolutely everything. We wouldn't have room to breathe...........
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#2
"Terrorism is a real and ongoing threat in this country"
First off, I'm sorry, but that's overblown rubbish, how many people have died from terrorism in the UK today? How about during the last week? The last month? Or maybe even the last year?
Off the top of my head I think it's approximately none (I may be wrong, please feel free to correct me).
That's not to say that something won't happen in the future, but who really knows what's going to happen in the future. Maybe we should all be put under house arrest - just in case.
If it's really to protect people's lives, how many people have been stabbed this week/month/year? Why hasn't there been a law brought in to arrest and hold anyone who may stab someone, without charge/evidence?
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The Government knows the game is up.
And it may not even be primarily their fault.
The economy, upon which their fortunes are predicated, has turned sour because of mix of internal and external factors.
Some will argue as to whether the low-cost credit boom which NL did nothing to curb has done for them and/or some of the banks/building societies 'unwise' investments (which I suspect the BoE is frantically bailing out - but of course, we must never know - this will be a State secret 'forever').
Problem is, Labour, especially Gordon Brown as Chancellor, trumpeted loudly that they had ended 'boom-and-bust'.
They have'nt - so now their protestations ring hollow.
We must struggle as best we can through the next two years.
A number of business people I know will go under during this period.
But hopefully by 2011/12, with a totally new political framework in place in England, we can see economic recovery taking place.
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#62, I think people with Conservative leanings want the Labour government out (not Gordon out with another Labour PM in his place). It's not about GB being the person that Conservatives fear at the next election, it's about getting rid of the whole lot of them.
I think the media want Gordon out, or at least a leadership contest, because it makes a good news story.
I think you're right about Labour, their best bet is for the Cameron / Osborne "ticket" to still be in place come the next GE. I think Cameron and the Conservatives could win, but they need to move Osborne firmly out of the public eye.
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56 deep-breath-sedna:
What is it with this Toff thing? Wasn't Tony Benn a 'toff'. Does he understand the plight of the poor??? So what if the Cameron Clan are all 'toffs'? Personally, I don't care if a politician's background is 'toff', middle class or working class: who cares.
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Yup. Big business and the Tories must be laughing their asses off at how they're duped people into having a go at Labour for their security and community initiatives to protect what civilisation we've accumulated against thugs and sociopaths. Meanwhile, big businesses like Virgin Media is trying to create a two tier internet and sneak in snooping your datastream by the back door. If people want to have a go at someone for bullying and invading your lives they could try looking at the real culprits.
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68 CEH
Yes Charles, but the 'real culprits' wouldn't be culprits at all if our government saw fit to support our rights through legislation, instead of eroding them.
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#62.
What colour is the sky in your world?
As I understand it many in the Labour Party are asking questions about Gordon. Its not the Tories Brown will fear.
Probation is the phrase I recall.
It may well be that people don't feel that much more positive about the Tories than they did a year ago. But the polls don't lie. Labour are deeply unpopular and the core vote in disintegrating.
Crewe was not a moral victory for Labour.
Propaganda undermines the democratic process - is it good governance that people want or just a tribal desire to see their team in power and who cares what policies they introduce?
Why not 41 days and 12 hours? Why not 43 days 1 hour and fifteen minutes? Because its just an electoral gambit that could badly misfire (as is usual these days like 10p) if the privilege gets abused.
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20# I do not live in fear. I take lessons from history. Have you ever heard of Neville Chamberlain, he was British prime minister between 1937 and 1940, and is closely associated with the policy of appeasement towards Nazi Germany.
If not I take it you have heard of Winston Churchill. Mr Chamberlain came back fro Germany saying " peace in our time" no war with Germany. Churchill disputed that.
Odd is it not that happened in 1939 no sooner had he said that when we were at war with Germany ?
I spent the first part of my childhood with my Father a Ship's engineer on an unarmed Merchantman out in the North Atlantic being hunted by Hitlers, Wolfpack Submarines, willing and able to sink this Ship and every other one they could spot. And every adult male member in my family in uniform from 1939-1945.
The strange thing being, Chamberlain was certain that because he thought he averted it, it would not happen.Old Adolph had convinced him there was no threat, so he in his wisdom thought there was none.
Now the moral of that is , just because we have not needed 42 days up until now, does not mean to say we will never need it in the near future.
Bear in mind on more than one occasion the security services have only managed to do it in 28 days by the skin of their teeth.
Now you go along with your bees and their sting and Chamberlain's mindset.
I will go along with past history and the example of Sir Winstone Churchill.
I feel safer with people who have fore-sight just as he did. And he was laughed and ridiculed by some at the time.
Who was right and who was wrong?
Hope the only harm you ever come to is by bee sting and it is only a bee that stings you, rather than a suicide bomber who has managed to slip the net.
Bear in mind, our intelligence peole are very good , they are not superhuman and they too can make mistakes and miss vital information.
But then perhaps we should have people empoloyed in the security services who never make mistakes. Do you know anybody who never makes a mistake. I confess I do not.
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Kiwilegs: you say "This is still a free Country where the last I heard"
Not true, in a free country anyone would be free to air their opinions, no matter how ghastly or distasteful, they would be free to own and read any book or literature, they would be free to think whatever they like.
This country arrests people for opinions and imprisons people for looking at the wrong books or websites and that list of banned books is constantly growing.
No British government in the last 100 years has done more to restrict freedom than Labour.
Labour the party of the poor working man, who doubled the income tax of the poorest workers whilst bailing out billionaire bankers.
Come on... you defend labour, how on earth do you defend that as a protection of core labour values? or the fact that labour still have not rectified this and my daughter, single, low pay, will now (after labour borrowed a further 2.7billion) be paying 25% more tax than last year?
Labour exist only to tax and control the peons. They bend down in pure fealty before the international global elite, leaving our borders wide open and punishing the innocent for wearing the wrong T-shirt or reading the wrong books.
This is NOT the labour party of Bevin. It has been taken over and corrupted from within. It has turned into a fake cheapened version of the old nasty tory party. They steal tory policies in a hail of publicity and implement them badly only for them to fail and be abandoned like some fake rolex.
The Islamic terrorist threat has been massively over exaggerated. As was the non-existent threat from Iraq's non existent WMD. Again brought to you by your listening Labour party.
This 42 day mess has NOTHING to do with protecting you from terrorism, for the Government already has bundles of laws to deal with that, including the totalitarian civil contingencies bill.
This 42 days mess is all about labour's new core value, CONTROL!
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Then we'd have some people banging on about Labour "destroying business". Actually, Labour is pushing for a better internet and looking at competition regulation to break up the cartels. The problem is big business dragging its feet and opposing any loss of their jealously guarded power.
It's clear that the banking crisis was caused by British banks gaming the system and kings ransom bonuses. A workable system was in place but it wasn't prepared for the level of cheating and greed. Now, the banks have never taken responsibility for that but were the first to cry for corporate welfare.
Civilisation takes an age to build but a moment to destroy. Terrorists and their sociopathic equivalent in big business are what the American's would call "a real and present danger". It's not just bombs that ruin lives but companies and finance that act to their own narrow agenda.
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71: Kiwilegs:
First , we can't predict from past historical events what will happen in the future, so no argument. Second, let's make it 120 days then: 'just because we have not needed 120 days up until now does not mean to say we may never need it in the near future.' How about 6 months?: you never know you just might need ...: And on and on: Get the point?
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No.36 - Nonsense - when real people on shows like Question Time etc., not so those in some biased government survey, are asked to vote, overwhelmingly they vote against fascist measures like 42 days detention and ID cards.
No.68 "they could try looking at the real culprits" - exactly, who is it that is supposed to protect us from the worlds predators such as banks, fuel companies, large corporations? ....... the government!!!!
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For gods sake this is a dishonerable minister who should never be trusted. She renaged on an arbitrated settlement with the Police.
She fits the mould for most of the fiascos this shabby tactics this Labour lot stand for.
Get rid of her with the rest of them and the sooner the better.
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Kiwilegs, the flaw in your analogy is that the threat from terrorism is in no way comparable to that posed by the Nazis. I'm sorry that 50 innocent Britons died from terrorist bombs on 7/7, but 50 THOUSAND British civilians died from German bombs during WW2.
Repeat after me: Al-Qaida is not, repeat *NOT* going to succeed where the millions of soldiers of Hitler and Hirohito failed -- I'm as certain of that as I am that today is Tuesday.
Only if we allow fear to remove our freedoms do the terrorists win.
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Kwilegs: "Have you ever heard of Neville Chamberlain,"
Yes I have, he gave Hitler the thumbs up to take Czechoslovakia in a gross act of appeasement. What is your point?
"Now the moral of that is , just because we have not needed 42 days up until now, does not mean to say we will never need it in the near future."
We 'may' need indefinite or permanent internment in the future as well, so why not implement that now?
You argument is as incoherent as it is foolish. If you do not think that we should have appeased Hitler, why should we appease another group of neo-fascists in Downing Street or GCHQ.
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Jacqui Smith for PM?
What next? Mandelson for Pope?
Jacqui has had a charisma by-pass. She appeared not to know why 42 day detention was important when she appeared on Andrew Marr three weeks ago. Just like Liam Byrne 'forgot' to bring the documents on immigration when he appeared with Andrew Neil.
New Labour are running scared and will clutch any crumb of comfort in the current environment.
Why would an Aston Villa fan, caravan hugging light weight be the answer to Tory Toffs? People voted in a Tory Toff in Crewe and Nantwich. They didn't vote in the single mothr of five just trying to scratch a living.
People are done with NuLabour gimmicks and it now doesn't matter what they try it's a spent force; bankrupt intellectually, politically and financially.
NuLabour have had their go with big government and left us to pick up the tab. If you thought Northern Rock was bad, what are they going to say about the FSA not picking up on Bradford and Bingley..now down 90% from it's high? Now admitting fraud? Now letting in private equity? Firing its CEO.
All Hail Blessed Ditherer (Normal incompetence now restored)
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@15
You can claim luddite thinking all you like, the truth is very simple and always has been. [It's called liberty, without interference from the state].
Off course, your point of view and voicing that point of view is your right, the right my father died for in the 2nd world war and one I would uphold.
We don't need 42 days detention, they have far too many laws as it is and new laws cost us tax money.
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@ 73, Charles, really? You can do better than that can't you?
Do you understand that the central banks only exist to create money out of thin air and then charge interest upon it?
It is no use complaining that the banks have done, what banks always do, (which is to create a credit bubble then pop it to take possession of tangible wealth).
But to defend labour, who have bent over backwards to support such criminals as the banks, is really beyond the pail. No Government has done as much to bend over and show supine fealty to the banking elite as labour have. That is how they won such praise and 3 elections over the last 11 years.
Labour have set aside hundreds of billions, enough to double our hospital capacity overnight, to prop up corrupt billionaire bankers whilst doubling the income tax on the poor.
I am still waiting for a labour supporter to twist logic to the extent that that kind of craven compliance to their banking overlords is somehow, in keeping with labour's kind and listening, warm and fuzzy, core principles. Come on Charles, come on Kiwilegs.
How can labour be progressive by increasing the income tax on the poor whilst spending billions to bail out the banks?
They should let the private banks collapse!
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Anyone else not surprised that those lovely people in Sein Fein, who are in no way connected to terrorist organisations are now playing brinksmanship over in Stormont as they can see the Prime Minister is in a very bad state (politically) and doesnt have the clout to sort them out.
What Gordon needs right now is a break down in the Northern Ireland peace process just to add the cherry to the top of the cake.
Still, if they get this anti terror legislation through they can lock them all up for 42 days to defuse the situation.
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Charles
You really will have to stop throwing these little chestnuts of unsupported information in your posts (civilization takes an .... etc.) Stick to the point: New labour have had over a decade to bring in sound regulation for the Banks, they failed to do so. And many of their initiatives encourged speculation. (eg. favourable tax criteria for venture capital etc.) So, give it a rest. By 'crying for corporate welfare', I assume you mean the BOE bailing out Northern Rock etc. again, new Labour. And how can New labour defend us against these internet companies snooping on us, while at the same time wanting to use the very same companies to access our personal data?(telephone calls, emails etc.)
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Thank you KIWILEGS
We have had several jousts on other threads and I have read your posts and learnt. I have only before ever posted my opinions and never been active in politics. But your views have helped me make the decision as I feel I can help make the UK a better place in which to live.
So this morning I joined the Party.
No, not Labour, the Conservative Party and they have my 25 pounds.
The reason why I have done this is that I was totally appalled by your description of Tories as "completely objectionable human beings". I would use that phrase for people like Robert Magabe or the leader in Burma. In fact many of my friends are Tories and thoroughly likeable people they are too. I also have Labour and Liberal friends, all likeable.
Now being a member my first task will be to contact my prospective candidate, who is very active in the area, to offer him my services to oust the current Labour MP. This is sad because the current man is a likeable, hardworking constituency MP who opposes the government often.
In fact, its not him I want to remove but people who are willing call other citizens of the UK "completely objectionable human beings."
Thank you again as I would never have made this decision without your time and guidance.
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77# And your argument about 70+ year old junkies is then?
And your vast experience dealing with them.
What a bloody handful they must have made ,for you to cope with!
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The argument for 42 days seems to be that terrorist plots are more complicated. But that is an open ended argument. Can anyone honestly say there will be a time when terrorist plots get LESS complicated?
So, if they will always get more complex, then (obviously) we will always need more time, so applying the precautionary principle now we should vote for unlimited detention without charge, just in case!
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GaryElsby calls all Tories thick.
This is Gary "I went to Crewe and couldn't find a Tory voter" Elsby.
Kiwilegs says that on "more than one occasion the security services have only managed to do it in 28 days by the skin of their teeth." Not according to the police. And anyway, the point is that if 28 days is available, they will use 28 days, if 42 is available, that's what they'll use, if 365 were available, they'd take 365.
Charles complains that Virgin want to snoop on people's datastreams. OK. Just as well the government aren't planning to monitor every single phonecall made and email sent by every person in this country then. Oops.
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84#
Good for you, well done have ersatz instead of coffee or go about in plastic instead of leather with Blair mark 2. or to put it as Gideon Osborne did "the heir to Blair".
A Leader who can do a complete 90% turn in his beliefs and priciples in the space of 12 months.
The same leader who was the author of the most right wing manifesto this Country has ever seen.
I hope you can afford them. never mind just think of all the tax-cuts andt the services that have to be cut to pay for them.
Once again well done you are a true blue Tory!
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Charles says, of the bank regulations in the UK :
"A workable system was in place but it wasn't prepared for the level of cheating and greed"
Charles, a workable system would have prevented and punished cheating and greed. The system allowed the banks to do what they liked without serious scrutiny or oversight. Consequence, Northern Rock.
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When you consider the scope of technology, communications, and porous borders that exist today, and what legislative tool and safeguards need to be in place, what would you come up with that's short of declaring a state of emergency and greater than an older conventional measure?
It's easy to complain and perform to the gallery but building anything well takes effort. Before any of the critics mouth off again, what proposals do you have that don't involve knee-jerk reactions when time is in short supply? Now, consider how you would you feel if someone tore your proposals to shreds and threatened you with the sack.
Not so easy now, is it?
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Jaqui ("trust me") Smith claims that the 42 days detention without charge is safe in her hands. In her increasingly desperate attempt to persuade wavering MPs, she offers new concessions, including greater parliamentary 'scrutiny' when an order is brought in - and possibly even a vote on a case by case basis.
The point is, Parliament would not be able to know all the details of an individual case for obvious reasons.
But far more worrying is Smith's total lack of understanding of the principle of the 'separation of powers'.
In a democracy, an elected government makes the laws, but Justice is administered by an independent Judiciary. The rule of law requires that the Judiciary is free from day-to-day political interference.
If politicians are given power to oversee 'justice' themselves, this is a recipe for tyranny.
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Charles, if their proposals can be "torn to shreds" then they can't have been very good in the first place.
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88 kiwilegs
Thank you, but your apology comes to late.
The deed is done, the wheels are in motion.
Just as the Conservatives deserve me, the Labour party deserves you (not a compliment). It wasn't until I started posting that I discovered how nasty and vindictive Labour supporters can be. And how, like Brown, they have little or no sense of humour.
Just as Old Labour died, let us all hope that this is the death of New Labour.
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#90
"what legislative tool and safeguards need to be in place...... short of declaring a state of emergency"
I paraphrased slightly there Charles, hope you don't mind.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't these new legislative procedures being brought in to be used in cases that could/should be called states of emergencies?
And if so, why not call it what it is, and deal with each and every threat as and when (and if) it comes up.
As has been mentioned above, 42 days is an arbitrary number, no-one knows how long it would need to be, so why legislate for it?
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Dear Nick,
Please tell me you were dreaming when you thought this on up?? god help us if she ever gor near the PMs job,
LOOK! LABOUR HAVE DISINTEGRATED SINCE NEW LABOUR THE EXTENSION OF THE cOSERVATIVE PARTY, NEW LABOUR HAVE MADE THE SAME MISTAKES,
THEY HAVE LOST CONTACT WITH THE PEOPLE,
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Some of these postings put me in mind of Monty Python sketches (think Life of Brian's Mum played by Terry Jones - just of bunch of fishwives hurling abuse and taking offence at whatever is hurled back Do you think we could raise the tone a little? Otherwise we may be causing Nick unnecessary embarrassment!
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84# Mikepo you are and always will be a Tory, so stop using me as an excuse.
I changed nothing, you said so on an earlier post.
I should have been more wary most of your posts gave it away, my fault was I did not wish to see it.
You had me fooled for most of yesterday and probably others also. I see you now for the Red Green Blue Yellow closet Tory you always were and always will be.
You will enjoy being with DC, you are both slick Alec's.
You are a real Tory. But be more truthful about it in future, I at least state that I am Labour to the backbone. However the truth is what my well educated parents taught me to speak the truth.
Sadly others are not so fortunate.
AS for the membership the other leg is the one with bells on.
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93# and both legs have now got bells on.
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Kiwilegs,
You scorn Cameron for changing his opinions, yet praise Brown for doing the same (10p).
Need I remind you that in opposition Tony and Gordon not only changed their opinions, but also opposed everything done by the Conservative government, and yet in power they changed . . . practically nothing. They even (and how this must hurt) said that Mrs Thatcher had done a number of good things!
P.S. You said in an earlier post that you retired more than 10 years ago. Just for interest's sake, (and feel free not to answer this if you don't want to) was that before or after Labour came to power?
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Nick, you are missing all the good news.
NR has paid back more millions to the BOE.
Remember that story Nick?
Check it out, or do we have to wait until the end of this month?
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Onlywayup,
Maybe so, but they have to pay back 24 BILLION by 2010. Even if you take "by 2010" to mean by the end of 2010, that's still more than 600 million per month, so exactly how much is "more millions" in comparison to this?
And lets not forget, a lot of the money paid back will come from around 2000 job cuts.
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Oh kiwilegs
You are so wrong. As I have always said I vote Conservative, but other than posting here, having full and frank discussions with friends, and putting a cross against the Conservative candidate I have never done anything else. Never a member of any political party.
You alone, or perhaps I should give a bit of credit to grandantidote, have helped me see sense. The sense that this failing government and its nasty supporters should be removed at the ballot box. That is democracy, isn't it?
Please don't give me any credit for making this move. The credit is all yours.
Happily my 25 pounds will go to swell the Party coffers. And my free support will help lead to a change of government.
Is it true that Labour are 20 million pounds in debt? And the unions are debating whether to support Labour financially.
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#100
Indeed, that might be 'good news' about NR paying back millions of pounds.
However, I am not sure we know precisely how much was actually 'lent' to NR or the precise terms and conditions of the 'loan'.
I think that NR was bailed out by the Government because the alternative, i.e. let it go bust was a risk that the Government was not prepared to take.
The Government was fearful that the spectacle of NR going down might have a systemic effect i.e. depositors with other banks , possibly one of the 'big four', might rush to withdraw their savings.
And then where would we be?
I believe the BofE is quietly shoring up these banks anyhow but the main thing is, the natives are not panic'ing (just yet).
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I'd let it go. They guy's just chest beating and winding you up, and you're falling for it and handing over more ammo. When things start getting ragged or a bit personal it's probably a sign the conversation is over. Switch focus or take a break.
Labour didn't make the best case on this issue and I don't think the media examined it very well. Then there's gesture politics and opportunism thrown in. It's quite a toxic mix but this and other unfinished business is being settled. The media are going to have to get their thrill elsewhere.
My impression of the polls has been echoed by others. Blunkett has said the only way is up, and Steve Richards of The Independent reckons Cameron may have peaked too early. This trial by fire hasn't been easy for Labour but I see signs they're developing a bit of savvy. Sometimes, that's all you need.
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purpledogzz@72
"This country arrests people for opinions and imprisons people for looking at the wrong books or websites and that list of banned books is constantly growing."
If people are inciting murder with their opinions they should be arrested
Can you give us any examples of books that you think shouldn't be banned. if indeed they are. As you appear to know the list is growing? Are there any books in this constantly growing list that anyone would object to being restricted?
I would guess it would be books and websites about bombmaking or pedophilia. You can only take freedom speech so far.
Although I am not convinced about 42 days detention without trial, I think some anti 42 days comments are getting carried away. This is not Nazi Germany and you wont convince me that it is.
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@ 64 re. how many people have been stabbed this year and why don't we bring in a law to detain people who may stab someone, without charge....
Brilliant analysis and simply argued.
This shows how far Gordon has lost the plot. That in the real world we all inhabit, there are real problems leading to many real deaths on a weekly basis, but he would prefer to re-fight old pretend battles with his political opponents, that he is too stubborn to realise that he has already long ago lost! It is a sad delusional creature that occupies number 10 Downing Street.
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@105 - No, Hitler was at least elected by the electorate
(ish)
We dont need 42 days detention without charge, its open to abuse, if you cant find soemthing to charge someone with by 28 days then really and truley you arent going to find something in 42 days.
Anotehr great gaffe form the Government today with the "British Day", not only are they spineless enough to suggest they rebrand an existing bank holiday instead of giving us a new one, but they choose the one that the rest of Britain dont have. They couldnt organise a drinks party in a brewery.
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Another day, another new leader?
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#102: mikepko
Think you may find the following useful.
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Labour leaders have been told they will need to find £40 million over the next two years in order to keep the party from bankruptcy, continue to pay staff and fight the next election.
The figure has been produced during the auditing of the party?s accounts, which have to be signed off next month and also delivered to the Electoral Commission by June 30. It includes £21 million outstanding loans, the day-to-day running costs and the cost of mounting an election if no legislation on spending caps is in place by the time it is called.
Disclosed earlier this month, the funding crisis has raised fears that the auditors may be unable to sign off the accounts and effectively declare the party bankrupt. An immediate £4 million hole in the finances has to be plugged before the accounts can be deemed in order.
Talks on the rescheduling of the controversial loans are still not finalised in spite of earlier optimism that all the lenders had agreed to new repayments deals over several years.
Party chiefs have been warned that a further £4 million deficit can be expected next year and that matching the Tories spend at the election will cost at least £16 million.
The party is struggling to pay staff and is relying on the trade unions, who are reported to have quadrupled their financial support in the past six months, to avert bankruptcy.
Concern is mounting among MPs at the lack of cash at a time when Lord Ashcroft, the Tory deputy party chairman, is pushing at least £2 million into marginal seats the Tories hope to take from Labour at the next election.
Financial support from individuals has fallen from £2.86 million to just £581,000 in the last quarter. In the same period the unions gave £4.5 million compared to £1.6 million in the previous quarter.
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Teflon Tony marginalised the unions. Those same unions are now propping NuLabour up. What will be in it for the unions?
Perhaps when the next Warwick Agreement is published we will find out!
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Grawth. I retired in the early 60's from work when our first child was born.
My husband was of the opinion that his Mother was at home to look after him so his children's Mother was going to be at home to look after them. He was adamant on that point , it has proved to be the correct decision, they have all been a credit to us and the way they were brought up. Not one has been a moments trouble except for youthful high spirits like breaking the greenhouse glass with Rugby balls etc. We planned for Four children then along came twins, then another little surprise bundle came along, after that like any good daughter and as my husband was an only child, as any good daughter-in-law would do, I looked after both sets of parents when they became aged and infirm.
Exactly when I collected my meagre pension was for me to know and you to wonder about. I can assure you though I was more than surprised when the Pensions people contacted me quite a while later to ask if I was recieving everything I was due to as I was on bare pension. Each and every pensioner should have had a check done on them to make doubly sure nobody was slipping through the net.
I did not qualify due to my husband's pension. As I had only paid a small stamp after marriage up until I finished paid employment that was all I was entitled to. It is a pittance.
I will not say I left work as anybody who has brought up 6 children will know full well that bringing up children properly is a 24hr/7 days a week full time task. I have never stopped to this day just do less and less. That is why I emphasised PAID employment. As for when I reached 60 years old and was eligible for the state pension, that is for me to know and you to wonder about. Suffice to say I am as old as my tongue and a little older than my teeth which are almost all intact.
But past my three score years and ten. As for Cameron, he changed so many things in so little space of time it it is hardly credible.
Even David Mellor the ex Conservative Secretary of State who gave Cameron his first ever Parliamentary job said of him "that it was time Cameron got some principles and learned to stick to them" I do not mind U-turns if that is the correct thing to do. It is lack of basic principles that I do not like. DC has none.
I can and will change my opinion if someone can persuade me otherwise by good argument. Cameron
changes his opinion as often as he changes his vest, he talks tough, but votes soft look it up for yourself. Do anything say anything get elected at any price Cameron. The PR man who will never be PM.
I give people if this country too much credit not to see through a slick salesman as Cameron is.
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If the 42 days is passed and an unsuspecting member of the public is unlucky enough to get caught up in this, are there measures in place for adequate legal representation? This all seems a bit cut and dried to me.
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Cameron has peaked to soon? How come? According to NuLabour supporters he has yet to come up with a policy statement (except the ones you nicked from him).
You can't have it both ways. Oh, yes you can; you're NuLabour, reponsible for the boom but not responsible for the bust.
As for David Blunkett calling the bottom on NuLabour support; the Yellow LibDem flag now flies above his old town hall in Sheffield. We are supposed to listen to the views of a philandering playboy sacked ex home secretary? Someone who was responsible for the destruction of more civil liberties than anyone in history? No thank you.
ANd now NuLabour tries to take away August Bank Holiday and call it 'British day'. Faintly ironic given it's the weekend million s decide to leave the country for a nice relaxing weekend in the Costas.
Still Nulabour. Still dithering.
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No freedom of speech is totally different from freedom of action. Speech should NEVER be banned. If your my freedom to speak out is revoked, so is yours!
That is the policy of dictators the world over.
I should be free to speak my mind and you should be free to tell me I am talking rubbish.
That is freedom. Anything less is a slide towards tryanny.
Speaking your mind is not "Incitement". Incitement should be classed as "taking action to recruit people with the intention to commit offences."
If you speak your mind, and someone else allows themselves, or chooses to become "offended" by it, you can go to prison.
I have seen a list of banned books at a convention I attended. I do not have that available to hand just now... I could look up and provide a list of banned books, but I would probably be arrested and detained without trial, for 28 days for searching for such details over the internet!
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105# dhwilkinson
You should look into the case of the Nottingham University studednt Hicham Yezza (apologies if I spelt that wrong, its from memory) who was arrested for downloading a document that the US government refer to as the "Al Quaeda Training Manual" (In actual fact it comes from the Afghan rebels during the last days of Soviet occupation but the US has never been one to let facts get in the way of a good bit of propaganda). I'm sure there are some people who would say he deserved to be arrested for reading terrorist materials, but for a few more facts
He printed the documents out for a student who was doing a research paper on the nature of Islamic terrorists
Academics are, by convention, allowed a certain amount of immunity when researching subjects such as this.
The document was on his course reading list!
He downloaded the document from the US Department of Justice website!
During the course of his interrogation (Which only took 6 days, not 28 or 42) it was found that he had lied on his indefinite leave to reamin visa (he's already been here for 12 years) and he was scheduled for deportation. He was given the opportunity to appeal this decision. The date for his appeal is 16th July. The date for his deportation, 1st July!
Bear in mind that there are several types of lying. There's "of course you don't look fat in that dress" lying and there's "Saddam has weapons of mass destruction that can be deployed within 45 minutes" lying. We don't know because the police refuse to be transparent about their decisions.
As for Smith as Leader, I shudder to think! She has shown herself ignorant and arrogant on every subject she's dealt with, ID cards, cannabis, 42 days detention. She doesn't listen to anyone and just does whatever she can to increase government control over our lives.
On a side note, please can we stop responding to Kiwilegs comments? OK its his or her right to make them, it's our right to disagree with them (and I think most of us do) but trying to get any rational debate going obviously isn't working, they're not going to be swayed and they clearly arn't mature enough to accept that other people might have differing opinions to ours
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109 nulabournohope
Thanks for that. Its much worse, if true, than I had read.
But of course, they probably went to the Brown School of Accountancy. Spend what you don't have, off balance sheet accounts, borrow so much that the next incumbents are straight-jacketed. It really worries me what a mess the finances will be when GB is ejected.
Perhaps the Labour posters here have the odd milllion to put into the Labour coffers.
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I would have been more impressed with her if she had stood up to Gordon on the issue of police pay. It went to independent arbitration and because the arbitrators gave the wrong answer Gordon instructed her to ignore it. This has pretty much destroyed trust between the Police Federation and the Government.
Now we have the 42 day issue which is clearly a politcal play on Gordon's part to look tougher than the Tories. It's the sort of thing that's popular with the masses because they don't think that it will affect them (only Muslim extremists and if a few Muslim innocents get detained it's an OK price to pay if you're non Muslim) There were reasons that so many Labour MP's voted against 90 days and the same reasons apply for 42 days. Yet she hasn't stood up to Gordon on this issue.
She may have oratorical skills but to move into the heavyweight league she will have to show more substance
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ArsenaltillIdie wrote:
105# dhwilkinson
On a side note, please can we stop responding to Kiwilegs comments? OK its his or her right to make them, it's our right to disagree with them (and I think most of us do) but trying to get any rational debate going obviously isn't working, they're not going to be swayed and they clearly arn't mature enough to accept that other people might have differing opinions to ours
I am a solid Manchester United supporter but your closing comment here makes a great deal of sense. I have been saying the same thing repeatedly on another thread that has also been poisoned by anti DC and MT rantings initiated by these same aforementioned forummers. They wont listen to any views which contravene their own and are generally offensive into the bargain!
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But I like responding to Kiwilegs - sometimes she rants, sometimes she's reasonable, and I'm sure I come across the same sometimes.
The thing is though, if noone responded to the Labour supporters, then their position would be unchallenged, and that's not a good place to be.
So, Kiwilegs, the reason I asked about when you retired is that I was curious as to whether it was under a Labour or Conservative government that you were phoned by the pension people, and whether you had to fill in any of the forms for pension credit. I too have worked and am now a 'house-husband' although unfortunately I have had to get an evening job to help pay the bills, so I don't get to see my wife as much as I would like, but when times are hard you do what you must.
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@ 115 and Kiwilegs:
Re: "On a side note, please can we stop responding to Kiwilegs comments? "
I am still waiting for her to respond to my question.
How can labour continue to pretend to be the progressive party of the working class when they doubled the income tax on the working class at a time when they where putting over 100 billion aside as guarantees on worthless loans, (that the banks will not touch with a bargepole), in order to bail out their billionaire elitist masters in the City?
Even the tories never singled out the poorest workers to exclusively double their income tax. Labour did, and they STILL have NOT corrected the mess.
Today's labour party are exclusively about class warfare, control over the peons and abject fealty to an elite overclass. It is the politics of envy and hate. It is bigoted it is hate filled and it should have no place in a modern Britain.
So can you defend the indefensible Kiwilegs?
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#116: mikepko
Perhaps the Labour posters here have the odd million to put into the Labour coffers.
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Mr Bean is also scrapping that barrel as follows;
Embattled Labour Party leader Gordon Brown invited members to underwrite the Party's debts according to their means and pledged a major overhaul to re-establish a mass-membership organisation reaching out to every community in Britain to promote Labour values.
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Sounds a bit like what is currently happening in financial sector!
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In my opinion, it is a waste of time speculating about Cameron and his vague policies.
One, Labour are digging their own grave anyway unless they can turn the economy around within the next two years - which would be a minor miracle.
Two, Labour would steal any decent policies Cameron came out with - so he will try to keep these until the last possible moment i.e. when the General Election is announced.
The opposition do not usually 'win' the General Election - the incumbent fouls up and is turfed out - and I'm pretty confident that this doleful political rule will be obeyed next time around.
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116 arsenaltillIdie
As a MU supporter, shouldn't Arsenal be playing a in a foreign league since they don't have any British players except baby Walcott. If he had any sense he'd move to somewhere he'd get a full game.
Regarding kiwilegs, you are being rather cruel. Dinosaurs are an endangered species and should be preserved, preferably somewhere they can give others amusement but can't do any harm.
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purpledogz@113
If your freedom of speech involves inciting other people to murder. you should be arrested. If you read books on how to murder people you should be treated with suspicion.
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@107 bradshad1 wrote:
"@105 - No, Hitler was at least elected by the electorate"
You people are not helping your case with this insane exaggeration. For a start most people with any sense knew Gordon Brown was going to take over. and most important thing is that Gordon Brown is not Hitler or Stalin.
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@115 arsenaltillidie wrote:
"He printed the documents out for a student who was doing a research paper on the nature of Islamic terrorists"
I'll just have to take your word for that. It might be true, but why is a guerrilla manual, on a university reading list? If this is from the internet it could be rubbish.
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Some people have the impression that this Nick Robinson blog is the 'Bring down the labour government" site. and object and harass anyone who shows dissent to their cause.
I wonder how they got that impression?
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Well Kiwilegs, I guess that you must sometimes feel it is hard to be forced together with C_E_H.
Quite frankly, most of us don't give a good goddam whether legislation originates from a Labour, Tory or Liberal party background, as long as it makes sense and can be reasonably applied.
Most of us are just concerned about whether any legislation is designed for the common good, can be properly drafted, can be practically executed and explained to the population.
Make a real, experience-based, or well argued future case for changing a law and most people would get behind it if they agreed with the proposals.
Is terrorism a threat? No doubt.
Could there be a case for detention beyond the current 28 days? Quite possibly.
Make the case.
Show why an extension to 42 days is better than 60, 90, 120 days or an indefinite period, and people may just agree.
Show how, in practical terms, any extension beyond 28 days can be decided by an impartial body of legal experts, with access to all the facts - who would later be held accountable for their decisions - and we could maybe all agree.
It seemed evident that the original proposals, whereby Parliament had to approve extensions, possibly during a summer recess and with minimal data being provided (well, it couldn't be, could it), would be a farce.
You make reference to Churchill. During a time of "real" war (i.e. one that existed between nation states, where declarations of war were issued - unlike our adventures into Iraq and Afghanistan) the UK interred thousands of foreign nationals.
The problem today is that we are at war with an ideology.
C_E_H refers constantly to a religion or philosophy which may well have strong attractions. But much of its strength was achieved via the sword. Similar to long-ago Islamic and Christian approaches.
The "sons of Abraham" have a lot of contrition to get in.
But Jacqui Smith as PM? How low can you go?
Well, why not Harman - oh I forgot that her husband is the Treasurer of the Labour Party, who kept seeing money pop up in the bank account and really, really, really didn't understand where it came from and under what conditions. He was sooooo misled. (There still seems to be no public understanding of how mmillions could just appear without raising an eyebrow or two)
Or Beverley Hughes, who made an unfortunate error of judgement when misleading Parliament.
Or Jowell, who had no idea that her luxuries were paid for without a little bit of Italian help. And, God help us, she's supposed to be in charge of the Olympics...
Or the Milibands, Purnell, god knows how many others with about (well actually zero) work experience in the only area where wealth is generated - the private sector.
There are plenty more similarly under-challenged Tories, I would say.
Blair - with Brown's full backing - set out to achieve a "skills-based" economy. Well, after a decade, where are the skills?
C_E_H complains about the financial profligacy of finance companies in particlar. Well, so would I. It is abhorent that people who run public companies cream off huge amounts of cash. Worse in the financial services, which have proved that if a gamble works we win, but if a gamble fails you lose...
And Brown allowed a state-owned QinetiC to be floated, while not preventing a few senior staff from turning £100,000 (which they probably borrowed on a short-term basis) into £20MILLION. So who from Labour can complain about the awful nature of capitalism?
King Arthur traditionally floated away on the river. The former Beloved Leader Blair floated away on a tide of cash. The appallingly patronising Patricia Hewitt - probably one of the most useless and profligate ministers in recent times - floated into directorships (although what the companies who hired her think they will get is really hard to perceive, apart from an expectation that money will appear to be distributed. Just what value does BT think they have bought?).
This 42 day stuff is not really about party politics. It is about protecting US.
If there is a case then make it compelling.
Take the us-and-them petty party talk out of the equation.
Recognise that we all fear that a member of family, a friend or aquaintance could be killed in an instant. Or, worryingly that they may be pulled into the whirlpool and wonder whether he or she could really have had all the bad motives that detention would imply.
Our questions should be: Is it necessary? How will it be managed? Who will be responsible if (as will happen) people held unreasonably take the government to court and pay millions in compensation. Pretty obvious. WE will pay.
For a poster to say that, should the opposition actually oppose more draconian legislation then they should be liable for any terrorist activity that took place afterwards is complete tripe.
Do Cameron, Clegg or other senior politicians want their kids to be blown apart any less than Brown or Smith? No. Nor do we.
Is that the key factor in their approach to a genuinely sensible piece of legislation? I doubt it.
This is just simply NOT a party political issue but a matter that demands a bit of honesty from government. We don't expect to know all the facts. Even Blair and his cabinet - to their shame - didn't really worry about ALL the facts over Iraq. But we deserve a little glimpse into the why and when of how terrorism can be tackled.
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#125 DHWilkinson
in reference to your reply to #115 - arsenaltillidie, this was a story in the Guardian a few weeks back;
http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,,2282045,00.html
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126 dhwilkinson
Some people have the impression that this Nick Robinson blog is the 'Keep labour in power' site, and object and harass anyone who shows dissent to their cause.
I wonder how got that impression.
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I fail to see how Jackie Smith could be PM. She is way out her depth in the Home Office. It is still not fit for purpose, we have far too many prisoners and most of them are being let out early despite previous reassurances.
In respect to the 42 days, as the former deputy commissioner of the met said today, it has been hijacked by the political parties. NuLab and El Gordo are trying to be tough on terrorism and trying to play politics with our civil liberties. I don't think they have won the argument and concessions as far as I can see only water down existing laws and weaken the law they are trying to bring in - ie. a fudge!
Poor legislation is all we are going to have, and then the police will misuse it for their own purposes.
I have not read back to the Nu Lab manifesto, but having failed on 90 days, then 60, surely 42 is a number out of thin air, that is wasting parliamentary time, when our MPs should be debating how we are going to find our way out of economic strife, cut costs in parliament and government, and the continuing threat from global warming. This is not what we want our politicians to be debating endlessly, with super spin from the government to get their way.
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it was also on the Beeb...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7415685.stm
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So Kiwilegs cannot defend labour, so she decides to attack the tories based on her own prejudices rather than anything even remotely factual.
That is all labour supporters are reduced to. That is all that is left, shouting abuse at those with the sense to realise that labour are finished. It is very very sad to witness.
There once was a time when labour and tories could argue and debate passionately about the relative merits of private vs public management of the country's administrative offices and the nation's economy. But labour have so badly copied the tories on that and are now even more in a state of complete enservitude to their political masters in the banking classes that labour supporters have NOTHING of merit to debate with left.
It must be so frustrating to be a labour supporter these days. I am very glad that I have never and will never ever be one of them. I do not hate labour supporters, (although I know labour supporters who carry a strong hatred of anything remotely conservative) but I do pity them. In exactly the same way I pity a beaten and abused spouse that keeps returning to the partner that abuses them. I do not associate the labour supporters, who are generally very very nice good hearted, hard working, honest people with the labour leadership, who are hate-filled and incompetent, and now very fearful that their own feather-bedded nests are in danger.
Labour are NOT in power for you. They are in power to serve a banking elite. Their entire agenda is suited to one purpose. tracking all people, ending money (cash) transactions and enslaving all of us to the global banking cartels. We will need the banks permission (via their government puppets) to access any of our own money once society becomes completely cashless. All your actions will be tracked, monitored and recorded. A threat profile will be created on every citizen and your "entitlements" will be decided on the back of that threat profile. what you will be allowed to buy, to where you will be allowed to travel to will all be regulated and controlled. THAT is where our society is heading, and it is going there at a break-neck speed under labour.
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125#
I'm assuming it was on the reading list so that people writing their PhD's on the nature of Islamic fundamentalism could try and get some understanding of why radicals feel the need to blow us up, in the same way that anyone studying Hitler would probably read Mein Kampf. I was always taught at uni to research both sides of an argument (whether I agreed with them or not) before making judgements, which is why academics have the immunity that I mentioned, if they didn't then any research would be biased towards the viewpoint that they were allowed to research.
I would also suggest that you don't take my word for it, as there's a strong possibility that I may have got something about the story wrong, or allowed my views to inadvertantly twist the meaning of what was said. You have at your fingertips the greatest research tool ever created, don't dismiss all of it as nonsense
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# 126
Don't worry.
I predict that in about three to four years time, this blog will be full of 'bring down England's Tory Government' posts!
Believe it or not, but that will represent real political progress for the English.
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Grawth wrote:
But I like responding to Kiwilegs - sometimes she rants, sometimes she's reasonable, and I'm sure I come across the same sometimes.
In all fairness you're probably correct here. It's very difficult to however to ignore the more nasty side of her and it is occasionally necessary to reply to what is perceived as a rant with one of your own.
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@125 re:"If your freedom of speech involves inciting other people to murder."
I thought that was government policy, after all how many innocent people have been killed around the world as a direct consequence of labour policy? You cannot say, "we should kill the Zionists for their murder of innocent children in Gaza". Yet labour can intervene and help to oust a fully democratic government in the Palestinian Authority??? Labour can talk about killing extremists and have that as government policy even when innocent people are shot dead on London's streets by the police?
I would never incite anyone to murder, incitement being the actual recruitment of people with the intention of murder. I would not even write that I would want to see anyone murdered. Labour politicians have done enough of that already. But the freedom is restricted to only one side. Labour can wish anyone dead and recruit those forces to kill with impunity even to the extent of lying to start a war. Yet an innocent student downloads documentation about Jihad for a school report? He is slammed inside a police cell for days.
I mean, come on! When you can be arrested and charged and given a criminal record for merely reading out the names of the war dead at a Cenotaph????? You know that things have gone way way way too far.
Freedom??? Where?
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Nick
A small number of political diehards are increasingly hi-jacking your blog and dominating it with their tedious, tit for tat and lengthy exchanges.
Do the rest of us a favour and limit entries to (say) 500 characters. To cater for the dialogue between the ennui- immune unpersuadables and unconvertibles - why not set-up an open-ended, unlimited length thread for the usual suspects.
Call it "The bore 'em forum"
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"Gordon Brown is not Hitler or Stalin."
No indeed not. Hitler was elected, saw military service first hand and knew fully the horrors of war, turned a basket case economy into a world power. Oh and I am NOT defending his evil murderous slaying of millions of peoples all over Europe and beyond.
But Brown was not elected to lead the country, he has inherited a golden economic legacy that he has squandered and he has never ever been near a real battlefield yet supported starting a war based on lies.
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#66
I disagree with the notion that Labour activists want Gordon out.
I do know of a media conspiracy that wants Scottish people out though. Perhaps you are mistaking the two.
#87
I did go to Crewe and unlike your analysis of my visit, I did find people who intimated they would vote Conservative this time.
What I didn't see was a mass of Conservative posters or support.
By the way, a few words of caution and a reasonable explanation of where we've all come from since the 20th Century, had the few Conservative floaters I met in Crewe pledging to vote Labour.
It's the way I tell 'em!
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132.# I have arrived at the conclusion, that you are not worth responding to. I have given you an answer regarding tax. it is not my fault that you do not wish to face the stark reality of it, however that is your problem not mine.
What is it about this that you do not understand? Labour said when they came to power in 1997 that they would not raise the level of income tax. They have not look at the rates they were and look at them now.Since then they have reduced it not increased it. Look what it was post 1997 and then you tell me. What is it about that statement you find hard to understand.!
The removal of the 10p rate was a mistake, it has been acknowledged and apologised for and with the exception of some cases it has been corrected.
How many more times do you need to hear this from me and others before it sticks into your skull?
So how do you work out that the poor are being affected by this.
You open your mouth and let your belly rumble, like a lot of Tories you are full of Wind.
I attack the tories based on fact, past and present. I do not care a monkey's whether you or any other Tory thinks. I care even less about your opinion of both me and the Labour party.
I doubt if I will loose any sleep worrying about either you or the Tories.
Capiche!!!
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136# You are well and truly loosing it mate. take a pill and lie down!
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You might have seen some comment in the media last weekend which stated that some unspecified English Labour politicans were urging Gordon Brown to dump some of his 'Scottish mafia'.
Good idea - but several years too late.
It is curtains for you, chaps but I'm sure you'll find another gravy train.
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140 kiwilegs
At this rate you won't be responding to any of us!!!! Thats three today.
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140:
This is what I would refer to as a rant. Read and enjoy everyone but don't take too seriously.
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143 Suits me down to the ground my Tory friend and proven L...
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145/146
I see from the news that brother Mugabe is blaming Bliar/Brown for the starvation in Zimbabwe.
That's socialism for you. Mind you everyone is blaming Brown - perhaps Mugabwe thought he'd just join the bandwagon.
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Purpledogzzz@136
I do not support either side in the Palestine/Israel conflict. I only hope it can be sorted out peacefully. for the sake of the people.
How are the labour government trying to oust Hamas, the rocket firing, innocent people killing, former terrorists?
In this country! you should not incite people to murder. whether through books or speeches. its quite simple.
I don't really understand the need for 42 days detention without trial. I just think some people are being are getting carried away. Like Purpledogzzz@136 which is discrediting the case for against.
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arsenaltillidie@133
I take your point and have looked it up. I apologize for doubting it. Maybe it was wrong. But it could just as easily be someone wanting to make a bomb.
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Kiwilegs
To say your a pensioner, i think you should calm down before you get quite unwell!
Maybe a change of blogs would be better for your health. Face the music the NuLabour are finished, I know that because I was once one of there CORE voters.
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purpleDogzzz@138
Comparing Gordon Brown and John Major with Hitler because they took power without being elected? Thats a bit of a stretch.
Brown was more elected than Major when he took power.
Do you remember the slogan 'Vote Blair, get Brown' the Conservatives who also supported the war. kindly warned us and labour still won.
I think the judgement being made by purpleDogzzz@138 that Gordon Brown is worse than Hitler is a little misguided.
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150#, not only is it a bit of a stretch, he is completely loosing it. Has been for hours. I have advised him to lie down, he probably is doing just that.
......................................
149# Tory crackpots plus the lying coyotes on all blog-sites so why change sites?.
Quite a lot of truthful Tories also on here thank heavens. And quite a lot man enough to apologise when wrong, unlike some.
Shame the liars and Cowards spoil it for the truthful ones. Your having a joke about NuLabour, you are just one of many. You might find some sense this side of a GE Laboutrmost certainly is not finished. And salesman Dave will never get the keys to Downing Street.
2 years is a long time to wait and journalist have started to say, Cameron has peaked too early.
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You really need to let it go. I'm not getting sucked into arguments or namecalling. I've got better things to do and it's a waste of my time. To be honest, if you weren't jumping to every piece of bait on offer around here there'd probably be a more manageable number of comments and fewer people here just out to cause trouble.
When you stick to something useful and are sociable, and if you paid more attention to paragraphs and length, your stuff would be readable enough. I like a bit of interaction as acknowledging and supporting good stuff helps comment be less dry, but turning a blog comments section into a place for random chat is the wrong place.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
DC may have peaked a little early but GB still has a long way down to go. DM is waiting in the wings but he will be accepting a poisoned chalice!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
From the day she entered office, Smith has suggested that she has a degree of substance. But three things stand in the way of her leadership candidacy:
1. Holding out on the police pay award was a major error of judgement. (Maybe like 42 days this was a given - but I doubt it).
2. The Miliband of Men is better organised and ready to move. She (to her credit) is up to her eyes in a real job.
3. In today's Good Looks culture, she's kind of down there with Geli Merkl.
It's somewhat academic anyway - the level of disgust with New Labour is now too high to recede - and economic factors will make things worse in the next 12 months.
Look to Miliband and Purnell to push Brown, not Smith. For more on the Haverstock Hill tendency,go to www.notbornyesterday.org
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151
First time I've been called a "lying coyote". I shall take it as a compliment. What I can't understand is yesterday you loved me and today you hate me. Must be old age.
Thing is, not a lie in anything I've written. All true, just your interpretation.
One thing I didn't say, but true.
My father, who would be 103 now, before he died gave me two bits of advice.
1 Never let anyone s**t on you
2 Never vote Labour.
He had voted Labour all his life, been active in Tunbridge Wells (never a Labour stronghold), stuffed leaflets through doors, helped people to elections, etc.
By the time he died in 1966(God rest his soul) he was thoroughly disenchanted with Labour. I've always followed his advice and found it to be very sound.
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SERIOUS ITEM
I've just read an interesting piece in The Times, written by Rachel Sylvester and entitled " It's not about Mr Brown's flaws, but Labour's"
It ends
" Like Mr Brown, Labour cannot decide whether it wants to be new or old, liberal or authoritarian, statist or individualist. It champions modernity - but when its back is against the wall, it resorts to class war.
From the Cabinet down, the party is divided between those who celebrate wealth and those who want to tax the super-rich until the pips squeak, between those who think public services should be centrally controlled and those who want to put parents and patients in charge, between those who believe that civil liberties are sacred and those who are willing to sacrifice ancient rights on the altar of national security.
As one senior Whitehall figure puts it: ?Labour's completely schizophrenic; they all talk about wanting to be the party of opportunity but half of them mean they want to help the poor and the other half mean they want to encourage middle-class aspiration.?
This, I think sums up the party's current difficulties very well. Some may agree.
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Kiwilegs,
Come on, get a grip.
Brown said he would not raise income tax. Well, up to a point, that was true.
He chose to introduce a 10p band, designed to help the poorer (as part of a long-term strategy) which most of us welcomed. But then he chose to pull the rug from under their feet.
So the poorest group in society has now to get out the begging bowl to get back what any sensible tax regime would never have taken away from them. Is that your idea of "fair"?
And the Brown/Darling combo has come up with a borrowed fix for this year - but no commitment to sort things out properly for future tax years. Is that real "fairness"?
Brown (with his partner Blair) never said they would raise taxes on almost anything else that could be taxed.
Many of those taxes weigh more heavily on the poor.
You can't avoid fuel duties, car excise tax, etc., wherever you live in the country. You can't avoid council taxes (manipulated to favour Labour strongholds).
I could happily throttle the smug (and very rich) financial wizards who lose incredible sums of money for their shareholders while being paid obscene bonuses along the way.
Brown has had fiscal control of UK plc for a decade. What did he do to avoid these excesses? Zilch. Zero. Nothing.
I could equally throttle those who claim "empathy" with the poorest or most vulnerable, while making their lives harder.
Some poor NHS employee buys a drug (which would have been free in Scotland) to alleviate her cancer and the LABOUR government then charges her for any future NHS treatment... Just unbelievable.
For goodness sake. Students have "loans". Brown decides that pay increases should be based on the CPI. But student loans are repaid using the RPI as the basis of interest. Funny that. Brown says that CPI is a good measure for pay rises (although it has little connection with real inflation) but imposes RPI on student loans, even though that is a higher rate. And he claims to be encouraging the devlopment of skills?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. But a bit of political and financial discipline in government makes the difference between a really good outcome and a basket case economy.
Of course, Brown doesn't really need to worry about minor issues like health, education, transport, etc., as his contituency is in Scotland and these "minor" aspects are decided in a different Parliament
so he can always shrug at his constituents and say "It wasn't me who got it wrong, Guv".
Jaqui Smith as PM? Come on. Get real.
Standing on the shoulders of pygmies she may look temporarily good. But someone who could finesse what has previously been seen as "binding arbritration"? And then award the full pay increase to the sub-police force who have a uniform but little commitment to making the fundamentals work?
It just gets too depressing.
Brown has wasted more money than many countries have in their total revenue take.
But he is the "greatest Chancellor for a century"?
So where is the money?
Where is the level of debt?
What is the Balance of Trade deficit?
Quite frankly, I don't give a damn which party is in power. I do care about how much they deceive us. If the economy is a basket case and we were misled over Iraq, then how does this lot convince us that 42, 60, 90, 300 days is a good detention limit to place on anyone's children?
Just which people in the security services could be wheeled out to explain why we need longer periods for investigation?
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A for judging people by my own truthful standards.
I made the mistake of thinking each blogger was as truthful as myself.
How wrong I was proven to be.
No intention of dragging you into anything. You ponted it out to me, just as I had arrived at the same conclusion.
As for jumping to bait, I have been taught that it is good manners to respond to people when they address me. Perhaps you are correct and that is where I have gone wrong in my judgement . One does not forget the habits of a lifetime. And the teachings of well mannered parents who taught by example.
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mikepko@158
Labour is Schizophrenic? What is the conservatives position on Europe, green issues and grammar schools?
The Conservative party has the same problem but are successfully hiding it with a continuous attack on Labour. They cant even answer a question about themselves without cleverly diverting it onto Gordon Brown.
That article is just someones opinion. No more valid than anything on here.
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161
So you totally disagree then.
The problem with your post is Labour are in power, the Conservatives are not. Labour are trailing by about 20%. And GB is in trouble.
Your post is just like GB in PMQs. When he doesn't want to/can't answer a question he asks DC questions. And as DC replies, it is Prime Minister's Questions, not Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition Questions.
Any constructive comments, rather than destructive comments then. The former are much better received!!!
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162:
Blow me if you don't tell it as it is. You put into print what I have only in my head and cannot express in spite of my Independent Grammar School upbringinging (C stream I'm ashamed to say). At last a coherent author of arguments against the forces of bad Government. For goodness sake keep it up and all power to your elbow.
'Your post is just like GB in PMQs. When he doesn't want to/can't answer a question he asks DC questions. And as DC replies, it is Prime Minister's Questions, not Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition Questions.'
So true and a desperate attempt by the those in power to attempt to save their own necks by trying to deflect criticism onto those not in power! If DC was not a danger to them they wouldn't give him a second look. Do you see any criticism by 'our friends' on here of Nick Clegg'. Not on your life! (and yet they should because his party is only 1% either plus or minus away from them) in the opinion polls.
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I commented on Labour needing to resolve its issues the other day, plus the similar ludicrous divide in British politics. I note The Times is just focusing on the party it disfavours and offers no solutions. This is an irony they should reflect on.
While the Labour party may have a problem with hierarchies, the Tory's have a problem with relationships. The Liberal's have issues with Disneyland policies and finger wagging. This is the result of competitive behavior, greed, and lack of patience.
More Zen in your ego, dear?
The noise you're attracting around here does get in the way and people who are just looking for trouble tend to start spraying other people as well. You are jumping at bait and people will keep feeding it to you like they're teasing a young puppy. Parents may teach children about good behaviour but you have to be able to deal with bad behaviour as well.
The Prime Minister's big mistake is he over-explains and gets hurt easily. I think, he's getting a clue about that so the bullying and name calling from insincere and insensitive politicians won't bug him so much. He got sucked into fielding arguments and cutting people slack but they just abused that as you're being abused now. And the cruel joke is that if anyone gets blamed it's going to be you.
Never mind the yang, feel the yin.
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164:
I fear you may be catching the grammatical disease displayed by two of our oldest forummers. Tories not Tory's and Liberals not Liberal's. That dreaded apostrophe is the bane of many a writer on this website.
Your thoughts I take on board but I am sure The Times will concentrate their criticism on the Tories when they assume power as is to be expected. As for your assertion that The P.M. gets hurt too easily I've not seen any evidence of it yet and if I did I might be more kindly disposed towards him. In private apparently he is a bully and rants and raves at those who dare to question his judgements. Where is there any indication that he cuts people slack? Please quote instances.
I might be wrong but isn't it ying not yin?
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And before anyone says anything yes I did spell upbringing upbringinging in my earlier post. A mistake on my part and I own up to it unreservedly!
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#162: mikepko
Couldnt agree with you more. Looks like Mr Bean has not cottoned on that he should answer the questions. But one thing you can say, he copes reasonably well with the pre-loaded ones from his party, I think.
Tomorrow noon I have booked a seat in front of the TV, I just cant wait!
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166:
But one thing you can say, he copes reasonably well with the pre-loaded ones from his party, I think.
This is true and these questions from his faithful MPs are weighted something like 3-1 in The Government's favour. Why on earth is this biased practice allowed to continue?
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@158 and @162mikepko
Does constructive mean agree with you?
This schizophrenia you talk about is present in every political party.
The lib dems have the orange book supporters and the Conservatives have One nation Conservatism and Thatcherism.
The problem with your post is that the conservatives consider themselves to be the only challengers to government. But refuse to talk about themselves instead deflecting to talk about the labour party. exactly what you accuse labour of doing in pmqs.
Mutleyspup@165: Im sory if eyve spelt aneethng incerectly. evrbdy mayks sekatsim. No bodies purrfect. What are 'Forummers' by the way?
'They are so old' are they. What are you and mikepko 'Beevis and b*tthead'?
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Just watched that embarrassing phoney publicity stunt with phoney questions from phoney members of the general public who were in fact Conservatives. where we were told that the Conservatives are going to change society.
Apparently unlike Labour, The Conservatives don't agree with stabbing , anti social behavior and family breakdown.
Oh how do I look back on the good old days of the 1980s when everyone was employed, there was no crime and everybody loved each other so much that there was no divorce.
Sorry the Conservative thought police don't want us to be negative and talk about history.
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Dear Kiwilegs,
I hope I've made clear that I'm not an advocate for or against any party.
My old man left school aged 15, as he felt he would not be able to achieve adequate results in French, when examinations were a more like the Baccalaureate, where you only succeded by getting decent marks across a range of subjects.
He was an old-fashioned Fabian. With a strong - and financially generous - feeling for those who had less than him. (Whatever he had was self- and hard earned.)
He despaired that governments wasted time, energy and OUR money on "drivel".
Who could blame him?
When Brown (or Blair or other politicians) say that we (meaning the UK) will do this or that, they never, ever say that "We the government will spend money we have taken off you - the citizen - to spend on issues that may or not be approved by you".
Is security a primordial issue? Yes.
So where is the border control?
Where is the cold-blooded determination to ship out anyone who has no right to be in the UK while spouting inflamatory messages?
I fear that you have been associated with C_E_H, whose self-important observations leads one to suspect that he was born as a New Labour infant and, whatever the realities, will die that way.
C_E_H apparently "advised" companies, many of which, he said, are now out of business.
Just the sort of advisor you expect to find in this government.
He advises you to get underground, because you attract flak.
I guess that he feels well positioned to take all that flak and turn it around.
What a pompous ass.
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169:
The problem with your post is that the conservatives consider themselves to be the only challengers to government. But refuse to talk about themselves instead deflecting to talk about the labour party. exactly what you accuse labour of doing in pmqs.
Hello! pmqs means exactly what? shadowpmqs? I think not!
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#170: dhwilkinson:
I would have more respect for you if you grew a backbone. If you believe in the LibDems then speak up for them, nay shout out for them. If more people like you got a backbone then Britain might get a three party system!
You sound to me very frustrated, as shown by some of your previous comments, below;
-------------------------------------
Lib dems, I would like to see them succeed. But please we need more than 'The other two parties are as bad as each other' that makes me cringe every time I hear it. and less cringemaking sex scandals and cheeky girl marriages.
I wont say anymore about the Conservative clones Labour. plenty of people here doing that already. Stop in-fighting and do your job.
Both labour and conservative are so poor and uninspiring that they depend on the other party doing really really really badly to get back into power.
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dhw wrote:
'Apparently unlike Labour, The Conservatives don't agree with stabbing , anti social behavior and family breakdown.'
This is just sheer troublemaking. Noone has ever denied that Labour are on a different planet when it comes to matters of this kind. Ever heard of cross party support?
'Sorry the Conservative thought police don't want us to be negative and talk about history.'
Would you like us to drag up up the era of Michael Foot and Frank Bottomley, one of the greatest ministerial disasters in history? We wouldn't dream of it so let's leave post 11 years out of it. It has nothing to do with the record of the present Government!
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@125 DHWILKINSOn, remove ones head out of ones behind, it was a joke, i'll make sure I stick a ;) after it next time.
Me thinks the NuLabour Cheerleaders are rather worried, they're being very defensive and rude arnt they?
For the record, I'm neutral when it comes to party politics, I think New Labour have done some good things, Sure Start for one, but think that in the past few years they've lost the plot and I also think that Gordon Brown, is well out of his depth and dangerous to this country as a leader.
He's a ditherer and appears to have completely lost the plot, no coherent strategy, no coherent policies, apparantly listening to the public, but probably just the voices in his head.
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C_E_H you have been banging on about 'good governance' for several of your latest posts . If I had the all the space allotted on this blog I could take you to task quite comprehensively on this government's spectacular failure here . Good governance is something you cannot accuse this shower of.
Kiwilegs - before the war my family's house in Ladywood was the local Labour Party Headquarters - socialism is part of my upbringing and environment. Remember that Hitler rose to power as leader of the National SOCIALIST Party . Mussolini also rose on the backs of the workers - the Fascists used the badge of 'fascisiti' the tied logs representing the workers. Both of these rejected the 'socialist' aspect of their supporters when elected - and became despots. Blair and his ilk have done exactly the same with the Labour Party and tried to emulate them, so much so that they have made the Tories look quite centrist and moderate. The present ( Blair and Brown) administration has absolutely nothing in common with socialism.It merely serves as a vehicle for naked political and personal advancement By the way I think it was on Prestons Picks blog that Mussolini was credited with the introduction and wholesale use of PFI's.
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Gordon Brown is basically a decent sort, I have no doubt; but he is lost as Prime Minister. I think he misjudged his capacities. You don't need leadership qualities to be Chancellor; you do to be Prime Minister. He's shown weakness and indecisiveness time after time, and this is the real problem. The electorate, and his MP's - and the Tories - are aware that he can't really cope. This shows in all kinds of ways - in his stubbornness, which he mistakes for strength (a classic error of the weak), in his utter inability to admit to mistakes (of course, all politicians do this, but he does it particularly unskilfully); and in his performances in Parliament. David Cameron - and Tony Blair - enjoy being baited and heckled, and give as good as they get; Gordon Brown starts to rumble and roar like a baited bear. I wish he'd step down, and not feel a failure for doing so: he looks terribly worn out. This job simply isn't for him.
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Oh dear god Nick. One reportedly good performance behind closed doors to a captive audience being threatened with the withdrawal of the whip and you are wetting yourself.
Never mind the fact that her performances on Newsnight and at the despatch box are so wooden, extremely patronising and sneeringly rude. Politicians are not made through private meetings!
Come out of the political closet; we already know what you are.
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PS
"Last night in the lobby, some even dared think whether our Jacqui might be the next leader that Labour is looking for. Who better, goes the theory, than a straight-talking Midlands mum, an Aston Villa season ticket holder, who still holidays in a caravan in North Wales to take on the Tory toff Cameron."
I'm sorry, am I reading a blog on the BBC or on the Labour Party website? Astounding that you get away with this stuff.
Where is your editor?
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mikepko@162
Mutleyspup@172
about
dhwilkinson@161
PMQs is a bit like watching Planet of the Apes. its awful. Yes NulabourNohope_2@73. the lib dem leader is treated very unfairly with only 2 questions. and his drowned out with grunting noises by the other apes in the house.
What I was refering to is when a Conservative is interviewed they divert the question to negative comments about Gordon Brown and repeat his name as many times as possible.
As for changing society. It is insulting to suggest that only the Conservatives care about law and order, and seem to have some image of Lib Dems and Labour of making the naughty murderer go and stand in the corner and think about what they have done. It serves them right if they get Sky TV in prison.
There is no evidence that there would be less crime and less divorce under the Conservatives its just family values dogma and brand image .
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174:
Here we go again. Making silly mistakes in my haste to reply. I meant of course to write 'pre 11 years ago' not 'post 11 years ago'. That really would have been letting the present encumbents off the hook!
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shesinterested wrote:
'Gordon Brown is basically a decent sort, I have no doubt; but he is lost as Prime Minister.'
I feel you overestimate his character. You only have to read how he treats his colleagues behind closed behind closed doors to realise that he is very much not a decent sort. He was plotting behind Tony Blair's back for many years in his desperation to achieve the top job and trusts very few people aside from a very small circle of sycophants.
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Gordon Brown is an archetype. I have a similar personality type to him so know this ground fairly well. He has vision and sensitivity, but this can give way to frustration and distance. Now, you may think one thing looking from the outside in but you might, say, lack ambition or be excessively chummy.
The Prime Minister seems aware of these issues and has already taken steps to work his way through them. This is never easy but is anyone can drive change it's someone like the Prime Minister. Indeed, once one accepts death as a natural part of living then life's horizons broaden considerably.
As the government pushes through unfinished business, I note, they are relaxed if the house doesn't accept it. If it gets through, great. If it doesn't, that's great as well. One accepts things as they are not how one wishes them to be. In turn, I expect the Prime Minister's conference keynote will be quite an event.
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That's just too philosophical for me early in the morning. I'll try to read your comments with more clarity on my part later today.
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Goid morning all
I thought I was up early at 6.30 but some of you have been banging on all night!!!
Just heard that Labour intend to replace managements in up to 20 failing NHS hospital trusts. The replacements could be from the NHS or the private sector
Is this privatisation of the NHS by the back door?
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117# Chris, you have more than a good point regarding your very last comment.
The word beginning with a "p" comes quickly to mind regarding that particular character and I do not mean pompous. Although that is very apt and appropriate in his case.
Shame really because I tried to become his natural ally, failed miserably though in his case I'm afraid, although he and I do share a lot in common.
Still I will give that thorny character a wide berth in the future.
As for another posting on here, in our day and age we were taught that any Noun could be pluralised with the use of an apostrophe. So it is was perfectly correct to write or type Tories or Tory's.
It appears I am being corrected now by a young upstart, who if memory serves me correctly was raised by a refugee Mother to this Country and she was probably not educated here. Had she had have been, she could have advised him this was perfectly acceptable in our day and age as it is now. If she has been educated in this Country the level of her education has been appalling to say the least, if she could not point this out to her offspring, or even point out that one does not do that sort of things to people of an older generation who have been taught by different methods.
If the Mother was born and educated here, well what can I say!!
I do believe things changed in the 70's whilst our children were still being educated and a lot changed under Rab Butler the Ex Conservative Secretary of State for Education prior to that.
Even after pointing this out, this character would choke rather than admit he was wrong. Could be down to the breeding I suppose.
But then myself being an offspring of the Bulldog breed for the last 3 centuries, (this is how far our daughter has traced our ancestory back to). It shows we all have backbone. That unfortunately is not catching and definately not widespread as I am swiftly learning .
It seems there is no end to the grammar or spelling correctors on this site, it is time now methinks for a few manners correctors to put things right. That is if people are not too ignorant to realise it, or to ashamed to have corrected what should have been done in childhood and as a teenager.
However that is down to good parenting and nothing else. If one lacks good parenting it shows throughout, until life teaches lessons to the contrary.
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185
Goid morning, what am I saying. GOOD MORNING
Further news that the 42 detention rebels are going to have a meeting this evening, after we thought it was all over. The report says that many of them still intend to vote against 42 days whatever the government say.
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Nick wrote...
"Last night in the lobby, some even dared think whether our Jacqui might be the next leader that Labour is looking for. Who better, goes the theory, than a straight-talking Midlands mum, an Aston Villa season ticket holder, who still holidays in a caravan in North Wales to take on the Tory toff Cameron."
What a biased blog!!! I have constantly defended the BBC against those who say it's reporting can be one-sided but with comments like yours I give up.
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I've met senior management from privatised services and some of them have been poor quality or swell headed. This is a combination of having spent too long within a system that did their thinking for them and having a sudden rush of power. If the government can drop in great management to bring failing hospitals up to speed that looks like a plus.
British management culture has become arrogant and greedy. They've kicked the ladder away by cutting training, deskilling, and dumping people too readily. It's just another job and they need to get used to the idea of being redeployed, demoted, or being given a window seat like everyone else. Quality, flexibility, and loyalty need to be rekindled.
Management is just a job like any other job, and expertise takes just as long to develop, but the management class have hijacked the system. By introducing some competition the government is giving them a wake up call. Hopefully, this will lead to flatter pay structures and more job satisfaction. That should help take heat out of things like the housing market and help lead happier lives.
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186 kiwilegs
I don't remember criticising YOUR grammar or spelling if you mean me with "raised by a refugee Mother to this Country." If it is me I find it rather rude and considering your comments about the good mammers your parents instilled in you rather surprising.
Anyway, she is a fantastic mother. Although she had little or no education in her own country due to illness and the war, I am still castigated if I don't open doors for people, give way in supermarkets and get up for people on public transport. I only wish such manners existed in this country as they used to.
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189
CEH
For once I agree with you. More training, better standards of management, more concern with the patient, and better use of funds are vitally importants for a strong NHS.
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Re post 89 and getting in managers form the private sector to bring Hospitals upto speed. Perhaps they could use the management team from Northern Rock or Bradford and Bingley, I think they are free at the moment
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The Tory's policies is okay (signifying ownership). The Tory's as a pluralisation is not either in my book or the Online English Dictionary but I stand corrected if I am wrong. Anyone care to elaborate?
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186 wrote
"It appears I am being corrected now by a young upstart, who if memory serves me correctly was raised by a refugee Mother to this Country and she was probably not educated here. Had she had have been, she could have advised him this was perfectly acceptable in our day and age as it is now."
Shame on you for such a xenophobic statement in your post. I would have thought another thing you would have been taught in your day was respect for others. You certainly don't show it in many of your posts.
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189:
I also happen to agree with you on the subject of management. In many cases they are simply not up to the mark. If they were appraised better by an outside agency such as Ofsted does for teachers perhaps our economy and our Public Institutions in particular would be more financially successful and forward looking. There is little point in throwing money at the problems we face as seems to have happened over the past 10 years. It just disappears down a gaping black hole!
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193
mutley
I have just looked in my Noddy Dictionary of Politics and I believe you are correct. Big Ears confirms your interpretation. Sadly PC Plod could not be asked as he is in his office overwhelmed by paperwork.
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194
stephen
Thank you. I didn't really want to comment as I thought my interpretation of the passage might be incorrect, and that I may be biased.
My feeling is that if the Tories were a tribe the lady might be considered racist.
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Funny, I agree with that. I was brought up by a mother from an older generation and had politeness drilled into me. That's been lost by newer generations but not everyone's an ape.
Britain is similar to Japan in many ways. Most people miss it but when you point out the similarities under the surface you can't help but see it. And just to get everyone in a panic Hello Kitty has arrived.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
199
mutley is not my friend. To me a friend is someone you know and trust. I do not know mutley and am unlikely ever to do so.
Just as you do not know my parents and I do not know yours, I am not in a position to comment.
I do however think that your comment regarding my mother's place of birth and upbringing is rather xenophobic. Having gauged your political leanings I am very suprised by this.
However, just to surprise you, me being a "truely objectionable human being" and a "lying coyote" I FORGIVE YOU.
I always find that foregiveness is better than obsession and rancour. The first is constructive and the latter very destructive.
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In relation to the actual thread, has it got to the point that any labour minister who puts in one good performance is considered to be a leadership contender?
On the subject of whether it should be Tory's or Tories, my view would be that Tory's would be the singular possesive . i.e. That Tory's views are misguided. If it was the Tory party as a whole it should be the plural possesive Torys' (assuming Tories is not in the dictionary). i.e. The Torys' views are misguided. Not sure if this is correct but i'd welcome the opion of others.
@200
When i read your post my first thought was it was rather rude if not xenophobic ( I awiat your reply that i dont know what i'm talking about).
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201#
Wires crossed here where did I refer to your Mother?
You are sadly mistaken there has never, ever been a racist bone in my body. Either by Nationality, colour or creed. My motto. we all bleed red when we are cut!
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sickofspin
I have consulted the Collins Concie English Dictionary ( areal book, not online) and it gives the plural of Tory as Tories. I thus concluse that the possessive is Tory's and the plural of Tory is Tories.
Re 200, than you for your support.
PS I intend to tell my mother about the comment. She will be amused, I think.
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203 kiwilegs
Allow me to refer you to your post 186 paragraph 5.
And I never said you are racist, I said that "if the Tories were a tribe you might be considered racist" such is your hatred of them.
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Two monks were walking in silence by a river at sunrise early in the spring. Swollen with melting snows, the river had overflowed its banks and swamped the small footbridge that was the only point of crossing for many miles. A finely dressed young woman, in much distress, stood forlornly by the swiftly running river, pleading with her eyes for the monks' help. Sweeping her into his arms, the older monk bore her aloft through the swirling current and put her down safely on the other side.
The two monks walked on in silence until sunset when the vows of their order allowed them to talk. The younger monk then turned on his brother with unbridled fury. "How could you have picked that woman up!" he accused. "You, of all people, know the vows of our order. It is forbidden even to think of a woman, let alone to touch one! You have defiled yourself. Indeed, you have shamed the entire Order". The elder monk turned to him serenely his eyes soft with wisdom and forgiveness. "My brother," he said. "I put her down on the other side of the river. Why are you still carrying her?"
Quite.
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CEH
Very good. Forgive and forget.
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Mikepko
Thanks for the input. It just goes to prove the old saying:
Assumption is mother of all cocks ups.
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Kiwilegs;
Just love the way the narrative in your posts jumps from the: 'hey repect me I'm getting on a bit' to 'I have my right to say what I want (which I agree with), to 'lets all be nicer to each other', to 'why oh why can't everyone be as reasonable as me' and not forgetting 'those awful tories are insulting us again' (forgetting that you are doing this constantly).
Give it a rest.
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186 kiwilegs
I have just told my mother of your comment. I ring her every morning at about 8.30 to make sure she is ok and 6.00pm to have a long chat about dinner, the weather, her friends, etc.
To summarise her comments (you would not understand them such is the strength of her accent) she said
"Why does she criticise my parents. Does she think there are only good manners and good parents in England. They were kind, strict and loving. We never answered them back and had to have good manners. Not like now here in England.
I have had much worse said about me in this country, and even threatened because I am a foreigner. But never by someone who was a Labour member (she knew plenty). They were nice people. Your father would be very angry.
Tell her to grow up. We are all too old to be angry with one another."
I think that about sums up the whole sage. So lets forgive and forget as CEH suggests.
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Kiwilegs...
If anything I find your somewhat obsessive comments and frequent contradictions on these forums a a source of amusement and pity than anything to actually get worked up about.
Sticks and stones... ( I'm sure you know the rest)
Ps. It's ancestry not ancestory .. freudian slip perhaps?
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209#
And your point is?
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Just to set the record straight my mother was born in Birkenhead and was brought up in a poor working class area of Middlesborough. Her father ran off with another woman when she was 11 and her mother died when she was 15 leaving her to bring up the rest of the family. During WW2 she was a wireless operator for Bomber Command. She worked hard to better herself and ended up marrying a Research Physicist from Holland who went on to be awarded an OBE for his contribution to Science specifically in the area of night vision and the development of colour television.. She instilled the same ethos of good manners in me that I have today. The only time my temper is tested is when I come across rudeness and ignorance. I tend to meet fire with fire and do not suffer fools gladly.
I have never stated that mikepko is my friend and he realises I did so with tongue in cheek in response to someone we all know on here who refers to those wth contrary views as 'buddy' or 'my friend.' I do however respect mikepko's views and would never countenance the kind of rude remarks directed towards him on this thread.
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Spot on 209. Doesn't it make you cringe?
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CEH yes but would it not be so nice for people to remember manners and apologise when wrong, then the forgiving could start.
I have never found it difficult, it has never stuck in my craw to admit I was wrong. What the big deal about that?
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213:
And his point is that you are a massive hypocrite but you don't realise it! Is that clear enough for you?
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210# you should have waited for an explanation, shame you acted in haste.
Read 212 # that was being typed prior to yours coming in!
I sincerely hope you correct the misundersdatnding with your mother.
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This entire conversation is heading down yet another blind alley. Let's keep to the subject of the thread. Really looking forward to PM's questions today!
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215 Does not make people cringe half as much as a coward. I did also say "I do believe about your parents" I did not say I was sure.
No need to apologise to you though.
Howvever it just shows the standard they were educated to when you did not know the other method of using the apostrophe to pluralise words.
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If you do't let it go you'll keep walking around with a target on your back. I'm done with it and, I suggest, you make a start by not replying to this comment but if you want the last word go ahead. But, the sooner you let go the easier it gets.
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This is gradually developing into a 'handbags at dawn' scenario! And all because of politics. Sad really. I apologise unreservedly to others on this thread. I can imagine the tit for tat is becoming rather boring and fails to address the important issues.
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219:
My mother is dead God rest her soul!
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221:
As mikepko confirmed there is no other way of pluralising words. I thought we'd already cleared that one up. Sorry but I can't allow you to ridicule me without a response!
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mutleyspup 215:
It sure does.
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221 kiwilegs
My mother understands your comment just as well as I do, and other posters. No need to say anything to her.
Your attempts to extricate yourself from your faux pas remind me of labout spin doctors trying to extricate themselves from yet another U turn.
I too am really looking forward to PMQs today.
Finally, you call me a lying coyote (American phrase I believe and not suited to the UK). Please supply me with comments where you believe I have lied to you or anyone else. If there are any I will happily apologise to you and anyone else.
I do, however, WITHOUT ANY QUALIFICATION, forgive you for any of the nasty comments you have made against me and my family.
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Agreed, "handbags at dawn is finished", no more.
Earlier today I posted
"Just heard that Labour intend to replace managements in up to 20 failing NHS hospital trusts. The replacements could be from the NHS or the private sector
Is this privatisation of the NHS by the back door?"
I think this will be a topical point today and believe that constructive discussion on this board will be of value.
The Jacqui Smith story is old conjecture, and I think we all agree that she is too lightweight to be considered a a party leader.
The phrase, regarding her performance on Monday evening, that comes to mind is "One swallow does not a Summer make."
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dhwilkinson: I never said Brown was worse than Hitler. That is a blatant misrepresentation by someone who clearly has a very feeble grasp on reality.
I said Hitler was elected and took a basket case economy and made it a world power, whereas brown is doing the reverse.
That means that Hitler was more competent than Brown. That is indisputable.
Hitler also saw military service in wartime first hand (in WW1), unlike Bush, Blair or Brown.
Oh and John major won two leadership elections and a general election in his own right. When has Brown ever done that?
And how can this country be free if you can get a criminal record for merely reading out names of the war dead at the Cenotaph?
As for Kiwilegs denial about income tax rising? Well for the poorest workers it has. That is a fact. The 10p thing was NOT a mistake, it was a deliberate ploy to pull the wool over the eyes of middle England, using the poorest to fund a middle class tax cut, a cut cancelled out by rises in national insurance. Yes labour promised not to increase income tax, so they increased a tax on income by way of national insurance instead. They plead poverty to break pay deals with the police and then set aside billions for billionaire bankers!
Kiwilegs is no longer inhabiting the real world and is an example of the sad labour die-hards that would probably excuse the deliberate policy of blowing children to smithereens, so long as it was labour proposing it. Even if labour had to lie to justify it.
Yet, is that not what labour did? How many children have been blown to pieces by allied air raids and cluster munitions deliberately fired into civilian areas in Iraq in the knowledge that children would be the inevitable "collateral damage". The deliberate lies that labour told "as acknowledged by Bush's former press secretary, Scott McClellan, led to thousands of children blown literally to bits.
How can anyone vote for a party of war criminals, crooks, incompetents, sleaze merchants and people who have sworn fealty to a global elite?
Labour have done NOTHING for the poor, except increase their numbers, increase their indirect and direct taxes and expenses and render them ever more dependent on the state. The poor don't even get to keep their own, hard earned money without begging the government for some if it back in return for handing over private financial information, that in all honesty is none of the government's damn business. Then in the experience of many people I know, the government will then give them the wrong amount back in tax credits.
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225#
Mikepo is correct for this day and age.
If you can read.
You will notice I did say we were taught that way and it reamined the same up until the 1070's then I do believe it was Rab Butler an ex Conservative Secretary of State for Education had the curriculum changed to the way it is today.
Capiche!!
How much plainer do you need me to make it before it sinks in?
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Kiwilegs RE: "yes but would it not be so nice for people to remember manners and apologise when wrong, then the forgiving could start.
I have never found it difficult, it has never stuck in my craw to admit I was wrong. What the big deal about that?"
So when will you? Tax freedom day is later now than in 1997, so this proves that taxes have gone up. National Insurance (a tax on income) has gone up and the 10p tax fiasco doubled the income tax my own daughter (in low paid part time work) was paying, and the tax code change does not rectify that, it merely reduces the increase by half. So now she will be paying 25% more INCOME TAX than last year.
So where is your apology?
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228/229:
At last some common sense on this thread. I can now go about my days's business safe in the knowledge that rudely delivered taunts and cheap insults will run off me like water off a duck's back. On another note it was rather strange in the context of certain denials on here that BBC Breakfast Time included a small item on the wrong use of apostrophes. A weird coincidence I thought.
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If I see that word 'capiche' on this thread again today I think I might scream. It's an American term designed to be used as an insulting and downright rude put down, usually by gangsters.
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230
I believe that RAB Butler (1902 -1982) retired from politics in 1965 to become Master of Trinity College, Cambridge and sit in the House of Lords as baron Butlet of saffron Walden.
It must have been someone else. Since Labour were in power for much of the 70s in MAY have been one of them.
Whoever it was, it was certainly a backward step and one that has never been corrected. At least we knew the 3Rs.
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If our government had been more diligent when allowing immigrants into Britain, we wouldn't be in this position.
Of course, the flip side of the coin, is that some people may think it a co-incidence that another terrorist has been arrested so close to the 42 day vote.
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purpleDogzz@229 about dhwilkinson@148 refering tot purpleDogzz @138
You said at least Hitler was elected(as was Gordon Brown in my view as I have stated many times), and went into great length about how much you admired his ability to handle the economy and how he has experience of battle. You also hint at support for Hamas (@136) who were/are at war with Isreal..
You say I have a feeble grasp on reality. I know it was a long time ago and I guess you thought that people would forget. but I would suggest looking at purpleDogzzz@72 @138 and especially @136 to see someone with a questionable grip on reality. what gave you the inspiration for purpleDogzzz?
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233:
woops not 2 x s in day's. Certainly not days's. Silly me! A mere typing error.
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Seeing as no-one really uses this board to actually talk about politics thought I'd throw my hat in the ring about the humble apostrophe;
1. They are used to denote a missing letter or letters, for example:
I can't instead of I cannot
I don't instead of I do not
it's instead of it is
2. They are used to denote possession, for example:
the dog's bone
the company's logo
Jones's bakery (but Joneses' bakery if owned by more than one Jones)
... but please note that the possessive form of it does not take an apostrophe any more than ours, yours or hers do
the bone is in its mouth
... however, if there are two or more dogs, companies or Joneses in our example, the apostrophe comes after the 's':
the dogs' bones
the companies' logos
Joneses' bakeries
3. Apostrophes are NEVER ever used to denote plurals! Common examples of such abuse (all seen in real life!) are:
Banana's for sale which of course should read Bananas for sale
Menu's printed to order which should read Menus printed to order
Hope that helps :)
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THE PEACEMAKER HERE
purpledog and wilko
Can I suggest that all this searching back is really rather sad.
Hitler is dead. Starlin is dead. Brown is alive, although politically only just. The times are different. The countries different.
As half Ukrainian, I could go on about how Starlin tried to starve the Ukraine out of existence in the 1920s. I could go on about how Hitler tried to exterminate the Jews. It is all in the past. What is the point other than knowing it happened and that we should try to stop it happening again.
Now if you were to talk something current like Burma, Darfur, ect, that would be progress.
Please kiss and make up.
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Apologies. What was I thinking of. Stalin, not Starlin.
Its probably because there are lots of Starlings in the field at the moment feeding their young.
Sun, nature, a nice cup of tea and Rich Tea biscuits. What more could any of us want?
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s-slatt
Surely Joneses' bakeries should be Jones' bakeries. Ther way you wrote it would be pronounced Joneseses.
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dhwilkinson, Labour stressed that Blair would serve a full third term, as in ALL of that term. The tories did indeed have a slogan of Vote Blair, get Brown, which was ridiculed by labour and if you are suggesting for a moment that the country went out to vote for labour because they where so taken by a tory slogan, that they just had to have Brown as soon as possible, then you are not living in the real world.
Labour were elected to have a Blair Government implement a manifesto in which one of the central promises was a referendum on the EU treaty.
We have received neither. John Major has won real national elections. To lead the party (twice) and lead the country (once)
Brown has done neither. The only reason that there was not an election for leader, is because labour MP's are so supine, cowardly and useless that they were all far too scared to hold a real contest.
As for your mistaken comments about what I wrote about Hitler.
I never said I admired anything about Hitler. Find anywhere in my post where I used the word admired??? YOU CAN'T
What is unmistakable by anyone with an IQ over mud is the fact that Hitler was far more competent than Brown. There is a world of difference between the two statements.
I cannot possibly admire what Hitler did with that competence. he was undoubtedly one of the most vile and evil men in recent history, almost on a par with Stalin. That you would twist what I factually write, to equal admiration is a sick reflection of your own mind. I do NOT admire Hitler at all. His achievements do interest me, but only in the same way that a cockroach's ability to survive interests me. Not in any admirable or positive way at all. GET THAT CLEAR!
Additionally I have never ever said I support Hamas or their aims. I have only ever written factual information about the FACT that Hamas was elected. Hamas were outed by the west.
I have never called Hamas freedom fighters or terrorists, I have never written anything in support for, or critical of, their aims or aspirations. That is all your personal prejudice dhwilkinson. in YOUR head.
I merely raise Hamas as an example of how duplicitous the Labour Government is. The Palestinians where promised that they faced a better future with democracy. They openly embraced a genuinely free and democratic election and had the audacity to elect Hamas.
Hamas was therefore freely and democratically elected. Hamas have stated on many occasions before this election and since that they are prepared to end violence and give up their war if Israel would negotiate fairly and openly with all options on the table including the right of return of refugees. Israel refused any contact or negotiation AT ALL. The "pro democracy" westen Nations of the USA, Israel and the UK then supported and took measures to oust Hamas from power. They succeeded in the west bank and now are talking to Fatah, an unelected and corrupt organisation, rejected by their own people. Israel are now holding Gaza in a siege situation.
This is NOT support for democracy...
And for the record, I consider the deliberate killing of innocents, for any reason, wrong and sick. I am therefore completely opposed to Hamas and the Israeli government's actions and consider that BOTH are EQUALLY vile and evil. but that is my opinion, and not necessarily considered fact.
Likewise in Iraq, they held elections, and elected a President. When the "insurgency" was spiralling out of control, the US/UK adminstration had the elected President removed and the current one installed, without any further election.
The UK and US administrations only support democracy so long as the people elect someone that they approve of. It matters not if the elections are rigged, or corrupt, so long as a western puppet wins.
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Mikepo, I actually have no problem with dhwilkinson, or his views that he is entitled to have, but I do have a problem with his misinterpretation of what I write.
I would be delighted to make up with him, if he acknowledged that I do NOT support Hitler or Hamas.
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242
I agree about Jones'. This really is a minefield. Such a long time since school, punctuation and grammar.
Come to think of it, this thread is probably better than classes in school at present.
I wonder what current day pupils would make of it?
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Shellingout
You may well be right, but I would have said that Joneseses would be technically correct (if a little strange to say!)
Jones' would be the possesive plural for multiple people called Jone....... I think :)
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Thank You 239.
You should direct your knowledge towards one particular old lady on here who still refuses to accept the pluralisation rule (i.e. no apostrophes in plural nouns such as in Tory's, it actually being Tories).
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mikepko@240
Yes I hate all this referencing like this but this person questioned my grip on reality in the hope that I wouldn't refer back to his previous comments. I was defending myself as I am with you at the moment. I said Brown is not Hitler or Stalin as many people have suggested then he suggested reasons why Hitler was better than Gordon Brown. Which I thought was in questionable taste. There that is a summary to avoid confusing referencing.
Re parting comment : I don't think so!
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244
My pesronal viewpoint, for what it is worth, is that Hitler's main positive achievement was to give the German people belief in themselves after the First World War following the way the allies really humiliated them after the Versailles Treaty.
The middle east is a total shambles. What I really can't get to grips with is that Israel can do to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto, ie surround then, attack them, and starve them.
While at university I had a Palestinian friend whose family had been well off before the creation of the state of Israel. Under British orders they were ordered to pack their belongings (or as many as they could carry) and leave their land and home within 24 hours. Jewish settlers immediatley moved in.
He told me that he hated the Israelis because of the resentment caused by this event and NOTHING would ever change that. Multiply the resentment by thousands and you have the background for today.
While I do not support what the Palestinians do I can fully understand it.
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s-slatt
I had a friend at school called Jones. Her family were always referred to as "The Jones' (pronounced Jones).
I am not a whizz at grammar by any stretch, but was taught by the "ruler over the knuckles" approach and through my pain, I may have missed some of the important bits! Heigh Ho!
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Capiche an American slang word used by Italian Americans, African Americans, Latino Americans and Mexican Americans. It probabaly started in the 1920's by Italian American a lot who live in the states and their offspring still call themselves Italian, although some have never set foot in Italy.
All of who understand the meaning of the word fully. America is a melting pot where all nationalities live and work together quite happily and socialise together in each others homes. Capiche is normally directed at people who know you are saying things to them but it does not appear to sink in. It is a form of insult , addressed to those when people become sick and tired of repeating the same thing over and over again.
I ough to know, as not only have I mixed with every one of the different nationalities in The USA I have had Italian, Latino, African and one Mexican American stay in our home as visitors over the last 10 years or so. That is how racist I am.
I have heard Mexicans call other Mexican "Spics" or "Wet Backs" I have heard an African American call another the "N" word which I would never use.
That is there Country, those are the things they find acceptable I do not.
One of our other sons is a much loved mere GP in a rural village, in the South of England. I inadvertantly passed a remark to a patient who was speaking to my son and my son said to his patient, " You will have to excuse my Mother, her remark is perfectly acceptable for where we come from in the Midlands, she is unaware that the same does not apply here"
I apologised, the Lady then said "no need you were not to know any different". Which I did not.
That is how much of a racist I am. This is intended specifically for Mikekpo
Last but not least. I did not set a time frame for when Rab Butler had the curriculum altered, if it was he that done so. And I am not 100% sure about that.
Never-the-less I still revert back to the teaching of my childhood. Not as things are today or in the last 3 decades. So Mikepo is right for his day and age but certainly not mine.
Capiche!!!!
That is the reason he finds it in the Oxford dictionary which is altered each year.
DOUBLE CAPICHE!!!!
Now it has ended and you are still wrong Mutleys puppy!!
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248
I can't help thinking that real men/women look past personal insults and differences with the aim of making the world a better place for all.
In this I admit I am weak but do try.
Please try again.
PS If anyone thinks I starting to sound like C_E_H please tell me. What a frightening thought!!!
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So there you have it, dhwilkinson STILL is completely misrepresenting my posts. I can only assume deliberately, as I have stated clearly that I do not in any way, shape or form support Hitler.
He is clearly incapable of understanding reality.
It is beyond doubt that Hitler was more capable than Brown though, Hitler's evil accomplishments clearly prove that. If only Hitler had used his abilities for good instead of evil, WOW what a world that could have been.
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s_slatt
I agree with you on the use of the apostrophes, except for the Jones' case where i have to go with shellingout.
There's a good book on the subject of punctuation called 'Eats Shoots and Leaves' by Lynne Truss. Well worth a read.
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On the apostrophe:
There are certain rare occasions when it can be used to indicate a plural - in words that are not usually pluralised, as in the phrase "no if's and's or but's", and also with some foreign words that are used in the English language (plural of folio can be written folio's).
Any school that taught the use of the apostrophe to make any word plural was not following the rules of English.
Also, to suggest that one politician could easily change the entire teaching of the use of punctuation is frankly daft, given that English scholars have been arguing back and forth for centuries about such things.
I also wasn't aware they had a National Curriculum back then.
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I agree with you mikepo, Hitler didn't take Germany from the ashes of defeat in WW1, (to become a world power that required the combined might of the former British Empire, Russia and the USA to defeat it), by negligence and incompetence did he? I am NOT suggesting that Hitler was good, or that I support what he did in any way shape or form.
As for the Palestinian issue, Again I agree. I do not condone terrorism in any form. I do understand the frustration that the Palestinian people feel that drives their violent reaction to their situation, but I do not condone killing of innocents at all.
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251 kiwilegs
Please get you facts right about the dictionary.
It is the Collins Concise English Dictionary, not the Oxford.
PS No comment on RAB Butler?
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Purpledogzzz
@72You imply that this labour government is running some conspiracy to ban books. Probably bomb making books and others obviously the list is growing as more scum write more books. You can not name 1 book that was banned only for political grounds like you imply@. By the way 'Spycatcher'(1988) Conservatives tried to ban it. Also a documentary by Thames television about the assassination of IRA terrorists in Gibraltar. 'Death on the rock" they tried and failed to ban that. which was probably punished by putting all the ITV franchises up for auction. Thames lost theirs.
You also argue with me when I say freedom of speech should not stretch to preaching hatred and murder.
@136You imply that the labour government is conspiring to remove the democratically elected former terrorist group Hamas. Are they really conspiring? You have too high an opinion of this small country of ours. What measures did the west take to oust Hamas? I have said I have equal contempt for the right wing Israel government and the islamic fundamentalist Hamas. Who are both ruining ordinary peoples lives with their pseudo religeous power games.
Of course this could all be 'clever' anti- Labour propaganda game you are playing. I accept you do not admire Hitler only his ability to manage the economy and that you don't support Hamas.
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Shellingout, Sickofspin
In that case I shall bow down to popular opinion!
I think my logic was sound, but as Mikepko says, it's certainly been a long time since I got learned up at school ;)
(What's this? Consensus and agreement on a bulletin board?!? Who'd have thunk it possible!)
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Mikepko 252;
Don't worry, you'd have to go a long way to get to where Charles is.
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Thank You 255. I wasn't aware of the pluralisation rules you mentioned but always wiling to learn. Seems education way back then is not as it should have been!
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PMQs - GB versus DC
What a terrible performance by GB. Totally rattled and beaten on every point.
Is was so poor I started to feel sorry for Brown, but quickly stopped!!! He really is a poor performer in PMQs.
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We can always tell when Gordon is under pressure at PMQs - he stutters even more then usual. He stuttered a lot today and even shook with rage on a couple of occasions. Not a pretty sight.
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Kiwilegs - I agree entirely with your comments that as you were taught to use an apostrophe to make a plural decades ago you should still be able to now regardless of changes to the dictionary.
Following on from that I filled my car up today and was shocked when the garage refused my offer to pay 2 shillings a gallon!!! What cheek!
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The cartoonist on The midday BBC politics programme certainly made some telling remarks concerning his general demeanour (hunched, rounded shoulders, lack of humour, signs of inner turmoil etc.). I'd really hate to be in The PM's shoes right now. I almost feel sorry for him.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
stephenni1971 wrote:
Kiwilegs - I agree entirely with your comments that as you were taught to use an apostrophe to make a plural decades ago you should still be able to now regardless of changes to the dictionary.
I went to primary school in the 50s and was certainly not aware that this rule was prevalent then. We must be going back a long long way but anyway we should now be living in the present, not the past whether it be relating to grammar or politics!
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Mutleyspup...
Re read my post.
I wasn't actually supporting her point - merely being facetious.
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There's a lot of posts on here comparing Brown with Stalin or Hitler, and that tells you that ordinary voters are (rightfully) very scared of Brown.
Brown is following a lot of the policies that Hitler introduced immediately prior to the holocaust.
Hitler did things very slowly and deliberately initially, gradually upping the rhetoric and laws as he went along. The idea being that gradual encroachment of rights is accepted but sudden major encroachments are not. And this is the policy which Brown/labour has adopted. First 28 days, then when 90 failed he tries 42 days.
If/when he gets 42 days then he'll try to make it 60, and so on.
He's already trying to snoop on every single email and phone conversation that every innocent person sends/has in this country.
Meanwhile an innocent man gets shot five times in the head for looking foreign, and Gordon Brown thinks that the police have no responsibility.
Meanwhile an innocent pensioner gets arrested under the anti-terrorism laws for heckling "rubbish" at a labour public forum.
Meanwhile they ban/burn books that don't agree with their foreign policies.
How much more evidence do you need that Brown/labour is actively trying to turn this country into not just a police state, but a Nazi-style state where innocent muslims/foreigners get arrested/shot and where innocent people have the secret police snoop on their every move?
I personally think it's reached the stage where, if they introduce any more anti-freedom laws then a massive national march to parliament to physically kick them out of the building is in order. They've eroded freedoms for long enough, there comes a point where you have to say "no more."
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dhwilkinson, I thank you for your acceptance that I do not support Hitler or Hamas. I welcome those words and I apologise for claiming that you are out of touch with reality.
As for the government's "conspiracy" to remove Hamas from power. I do not think it was a conspiracy, as a conspiracy is a secret plot by multiple people to commit crime or evil acts. Ousting Hamas was not a secret. It is a fact that labour offered any support necessary to remove Hamas from power. The Government have already officially recognised Fatah as the governing body for the Palestinian people and have held talks with them. Hamas have already been removed from Power in the West Bank by military action of Fatah and the IDF. That is why Abbas is the man to whom Gordon Brown or George Bush speak to in relation to Palestinian politics.
As for freedom of speech or action, I am not defending previous conservative administrations efforts there either. You could add to your list, that people who demanded a united Ireland, and who were prepared to break the law to achieve those ends were prevented any public speech at all. So we had the ridiculous situation in which an actor would be dubbed over Gerry Adam's voice. I am NOT defending the IRA either.
We were not free then, under the tories either, but things have become worse under labour.
You can now be arrested and convicted for reading out a list of the dead at the cenotaph. Impromptu peaceful political protests have been outlawed in some areas of the UK. And people have been arrested and charged with terrorism offences for downloading legitimate research material. People have even been arrested for wearing a T shirt with a political slogan on. One young man was arrested for wearing a "**** BLAIR" T shirt. Things have gone too far!
I disagree with you that people should not be allowed to call for the deaths of other people. In a world of free speech they should, and labour and conservative politicians do call publicly for the deaths of insurgents and terrorists all the time.
What the Government is really saying is, "you can call for the deaths of only the people we are willing to kill. You cannot call for retribution against us."
Taking action to recruit people, and weapons with the intent to kill people should remain outlawed, but merely saying (the expression of thoughts utilising words) that group X of people should be killed should NOT be illegal. It is the thin end of a very dangerous wedge. for example, Should a man whose wedding party was bombed by a British Airman and who lost his entire family during an innocent and happy family celebration, be criminalised for calling for death of the man that carried out that bombing? Especially when we know that the invasion that lead to that bombing was based on a series of lies?
This restriction in freedom of speech inevitably becomes more and more restrictive. It starts with terrorists. preaching death and hatred. But then extends to? whom? Anti-Gay campaigners calling for gays to be killed? BNP for racism? The men's movement for gender discrimination? The church for their condemnation of Jews having killed Jesus? the labour movement for class war? various self appointed victim groups shall start demanding the same rights to shut up anyone that they disagree with. "It's not fair, those radical Muslims were locked up, but we cannot lock up those Jews who call for the destruction of all Arabs" FOR EXAMPLE I AM NOT CALLING FOR JEWS TO BE LOCKED UP! I am saying why should one group be allowed their free speech when it has been removed from other groups?
I could argue that the labour campaign in Crewe was an exercise in incitement to class hatred. If the tory candidate had been black and labour's campaign had been a man dressed as a Golliwog, then the labour campaign manager would have been arrested for inciting racial hatred, yet why no such concern for class hatred? Both race and class are accidents of birth and genetics and both campaigns are equally discriminatory.
In a truly free world that was fair and harmonious, there is only the need for one law. That would be, you are free to do as you wish, so long as you or your actions do not infringe, impede or restrict anyone else's freedom. I know that that is cloud cuckoo land compared to where we are now, but when you start to lock people up for their beliefs, and words, rather than deeds, then you embark on a slippery slope that ends in the kind of totalitarian dictatorship Stalin used to kill many millions of people.
No we are nowhere near that end as yet, but we are NOT travelling politically as a nation in the opposite direction to that.
The Government are constantly calling for more laws, more measures to tackle terrorism and the terrorist threat. When will we have enough? As soon as one load of laws are passed, they are calling for more, with no end in sight. We already have loads of laws to tackle terrorism, but they are being used to tackle OAPs at labour conferences, or to tackle the scourge of children riding their bikes on the pavement or to spy on people who have nothing to do with terrorism at all. Where will it end?
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pfft.. likes football and holdays in a caravan.. meh.. message to spin meisters.. you've been watching too much corrie you don't have to like football to attain street cred.. and ibiza would have been better, although perhaps judge jules has prestatyn on his tour itinery i dunno..
they all have to mention football these days don't they.. brown likes raith rovers.. campbell burnley and straw blackburn.. to 'stress' their connection with the ordinary punter.. no doubt we'll get some naff pic of her in a suspiciously new scarf at the game looking really bored..
funny to think that some wonks somewhere sat for hours deciding which 'footie team' this woman supports.. it had to be someone quite successful but not too bandwagon.. villa fit the bill perfectly as prince william has found.
naff!
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oh, one other thing; you're no longer allowed to demonstrate anywhere near Parliament. If you hold up a banner half a mile from Parliament saying "Brown Out" you'll get arrested for terrorism. That was thanks to labour too.
It's obvious that labour are creating/using anti-terrorism laws to incite hatred against muslims/foreigners and to get rid of democracy.
The big problem is that we have 2 years until the next general election, so what I'm worried about is how many more innocent people are going to get murdered by the state before then? That's why I think a march to parliament to kick them out well before the next election is needed, because 2 years is a long time given what they want to do.
All this is a fantastic illustration of why a monarchy is such a good idea; in theory the Queen could refuse the sign the 42 day assent or other freedom-killing legislation. If I were the Queen, I'd say "If we lose the monarchy over it then so be it, but I will not let my subjects become innocent victims of an oppressive regime."
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@ 269. Hitler also burned down the Reichstag Parliament and blamed it on the communists in a false flag event so that he could enact the enabling act that ended elections, opposition and democracy. This was a huge jump to dictatorship, rather than a multitude of tiny steps.
I know that in this country we have the Civil Contingencies Act that does the very same thing, and we are only one very big bank away from the enactment of that. But we are not at Hitler's level of dictatorship.
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Purple Dogzzz "**** BLAIR" T shirt.
Last reply I'm guessing that word is either 'Kill' or the obscene 'f' word. Both are not acceptable sentiments to be shown in public.
One on obscenity the other probably breach of the peace. he should have been arrested for being a wally anyway.
I've had enough 'Wolfie Smith' style politics for now.'Power to the people!'. Citizen smith(BBC)
getridofgordonnow@269 the same goes for you. Loonies!
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When I wrote:
"I know that in this country we have the Civil Contingencies Act that does the very same thing, and we are only one very big bank away from the enactment of that"
I meant,
"I know that in this country we have the Civil Contingencies Act that does the very same thing, and we are only one very big BANG away from the enactment of that"
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257# The reason I said Oxford was last Christmas purchesed in Lincs. City Centre our Grandson purchased the Oxford English Dictionar for my Christmas present hence the mistakey. So I cannot see the need for you to become argumentative about a name. It was a mere error on my part!
However if it keeps you happy be my guest
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OK dhwilkinson, We agree to disagree then. But if you are so offended by a word, and it was the "f" word on the T shirt, that you would deprive another human of his liberty for wearing T shirt, then you are a dangerous person. You need to look inside yourself and see what is wrong in your heart that you allow yourself to choose to be offended by a word.
Enjoy the imprisonment that your beliefs are trapping you in.
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276
Argumentative me. I seem to have really got to you.
No, I was amazed that being so thorough you made the msitake. I am sure that dictionaries vary, possibly in interpretation and hence my correction. I do not have an Oxford Dictionary to compare.
I am more interested in why you said RAB Butler. To add to my previous comment on RAB, on entering the Lords he sat on the cross-benches.
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Big business backed by the Tories is actively trying to snoop on your internet and telecoms for behavorial marketing reasons, their databases are much more comprehensive than the governments, and they're bought and sold every day.
In comparison, the government instructs communications service suppliers to record the numbers and headers, and they need a a warrant to get the stuff.
This is all checkable fact. The fact is, you've been duped by people wedded to gesture politics and who have an axe to grind. Most of them are retreads with nothing to do now CND has withered away, and the right wing who will smear anything if it gets them into power.
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Steffeni, facetiousness accepted and entirely appropriate in the circumstances. Just put the lady on mental ignore. Works every time!
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What on earth is 'diddly squat? Give me strength! The insult falls well short of the mark because it is once again spelt wrongly. Diddy squat possibly. This is just laughable.
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284.# Yes it would be to simple feeble minded people. I wonder what intelligent people think?
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281 kiwilegs
I am at a loss to understand how you, someone with such a background, education and wonderfully intelligent children, someone who has had manners carefully instilled by your parents, can be so rude and nasty to other people. I can only conclude that the brains in your family came from your husband.
By the way, pratt is a name such as Mr Pratt, or Pratts Bottom in Kent.
The correct spelling is prat.
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It seems a though I must eat my words. 'Diddly squat' is indeed a word and this once I will apologise profusely to the old lady' It is yet another americanism but once again highly insulting to those it is aimed at.
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282 kiwilegs
Thank you for your kind comments.
I believe that I know somewhat more about RAB Butler than you. He was a fine, somewhat modest man who would have been PM has he been more assertive. His great legacy was the 1944 Education Act, the results of which I of very humble origins, enjoyed to the full in my little working class school. He was a Conservative held in high esteem by Clement Attlee.
PS My mother will be very pleased to hear your apology. I shall be ringing her in an hour.
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On this occasion I will admit jumping in with both feet and making myself a laughing stock. It was really the term I was objecting to. That is why I said 'possibly'.
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Couple of posts from the previous blog "not a resigning matter"....
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#61 - I've been reading and participating in these blogs for a little while. Does anyone else agree that you get approximately 20 - 30 posts related to the topic before the usual suspects steamroller in to state the same set of opinions that they've already trotted out dozens of times elsewhere? Stand by for a selective history of UK politics over the last thirty years, plus a few personal spats and thinly veiled insults to nudge the whole thing over 200 posts. Happy reading...!
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#128 - Sorry everyone, got comment 61 wrong. This time it's taken a few more posts before the ranting, tellings-off and squabbles about spelling and grammar started!
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If you were at school you would all be spending a considerable amount of time outside the headmaster's study. Please, no more talk about mothers, children, lineage, and the rest. Do you realise how ridiculous you all sound? You know who you are!
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285
Hello grandantidote
Ganging up on me with kiwilegs now. The more the merrier.
I seem to remember that my mother's suggestion re prisons gained some support.
As for me commenting on repatriating immigrants keep searching. I know that my existence is based on my mother and father meeting in England and would never suggest they be repatriated. That is something for the government to decide. And I most certainly do not support the BNP in any way if that is where you are pointing.
As I said in previous post, it is sad people who search way back through posts to try to find fault on some small point. Join the club.
Did you enjoy PMQs. I though GB looked very tired and out of his depth!!!
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Kiwilegs on another blog yesterday I was reported to the moderater for saying that another post was banal and that most of his posts were. They removed my post for that. I have just read through what I could stomach of this blog and I've a pretty strong stomach but some of these posts were beyond the pale 22/40 we are not at war being a prime example but many other derogatory remark made againt you and C E H and one or two against me although I have'nt been on this sight but you have both done a sterling job against overwhelming odds a bit like "Rourks drift halfway though the battle the enemy did'nt know that they could'nt win but they got the message eventaully and went away.
To get back to moderaters I notice that sceptic and mighty angela are not so keen about the free speech issue when it comes to tories reporting to the moderater.
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Kiwilegs wrote:
# Grawth many thanks for your support Re: Apostrophe. Nice to have a teacher confirm what I have been saying.
I had another smart Alec try it on, when she reads what I have written, I bet she will feel a prize pratt as she should.
It's still Tories not Tory's whichever way you look at it.
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Surely there can't be two separate posters using the same phrase 'my friend' to refer to their opponents.
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colinefb
I'm sorry that this has come back. I did my best to "top the "handbags at dawn" approach this morning, but now that grandantidote has returned he has started it up again.
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# 287.
The reason you are at a loss to understand how I can be so nasty is this.
I do it after severe Provocation ONLY or when I feel someone is taking the pee out of me, AND not before.
Then all hell breaks loose with people taking the length of my tongue. On a face to face basis I do exactly the same, so it is not bravado either on a blog-site or over a telephone, it is always.
When one gets to my age they do not give a bugger what people think of them , anybody around my age will tell you likewise.
I do not suffer fools or liars gladly, never have done, even as a young woman.
As for the word prat I did not know the spelling of it as I only hear it, I know what it means our grandchildren have told me, after that I have done. Bugger is different as I have heard that said since being a child.
We both helped to educate our children as my husband was a shift worker then after a lot of promotion and after the kids left grammar school in the beginning he worked days.
So he was hardly around to help out, I had to do the homework checking every evening,he did so when he was there but he also had to take our boys to Rugby practice which I did when he was working or the Brownies and Guides if I could not be there, more than likely taking one of the lads somewhere else where Mum had to be.
None of our children ever seen much of my temper, they did not push me that far, they were taught better and they knew their Father would have put his foot down sharply escpecially with the boys who ended up with heights ranging from 5'10" to 6' 6", that latter being 2" taller than his Father and 1'6" taller than me, so you see, he did have an iron grip on the situation, but it was done without violence in any shape or form. Only grounding, when we grounded they knew they were grounded and we did not allow them to forget it either. Only one has ever been struck and she gave me the fright of my life to deserve that. My husband was very angry that I would strike his princess, but the deed was done and could not be undone. I felt ashamed I had attacked a little mite albeit on her bottom. I was sent to Coventry quite rightly so by them all for the remainder of the day.
Now you have it make what you like of it. But do not expect me not to fight back. You are on a looser with that one!
And as I said do not contact me again as I was mortified by your behaviour this morning. And yes I do know about Rab Butler, but that was then for me to know and you to wonder about.
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296 mutley
My friend, sadly there do appear to be two posters calling us their friends. With friends like these who needs enemies.
I also hope you noticed the incorrect spelling of 'prat' by one of 'our friends.'
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Charles really.... You keep quoting "Big business backed by the Tories"
Well these big multi-nationals are also backed by labour too. Labour have rendered themselves utterly supine in support for the globalist elite. Gordon Brown himself has made several speeches an rapturous welcome of the imposition of a new world order. Who do you think he is referring to by that?
The new world order is a multinational group of elitists who's only aim is to gather more and more power into fewer and fewer hands. They have no loyalty to any nation or people and we, the great mass of the public, very rich, rich, middle class, poor and underclass alike are considered to be "worthless eaters" to these international elite of hyper-obscenely rich people.
They own the corporations that provide our TV and Print mainstream media news. (except the BBC, but this elite are represented by people on the board of governors) They own the "military-industrial complex" and the privatised militias that are beginning to dwarf anything the regular military can provide and the massive weapons companies that need constant wars (supported by their wholly owned mainstream media) to keep their product life-cycles rotating. They own the pharmaceutical corporations that are poisoning our food with poisonous sweeteners, and other additives that make us ill, so we go to the doctors who are poisoning our systems with drugs, to counter the illness that the chemical additives in our food, water and atmosphere induce. Drugs whose side effects (effects more like) are often worse than any illness they are designed to treat.
The elite own the faculties behind universities and think-tanks that create policy and set the "social and political norms via the media that they also own. They own the energy companies that drive it all. They own the private central banks that create the money out of thin air that they lend into existence in the economy at interest. The interest, never having been created, then is not fully repayable. That is why people spend all their time chasing money. There is not enough to go around and that is by design. The entire economic system is set up to create insurmountable debt. A total level of debt that can never ever be repaid, except by borrowing more money. Then, every so often, there is a credit crunch, or credit squeeze or credit bubble that bursts and the banks get to exchange the worthless fiat money, for tangible items of wealth through foreclosures.
Labour and Tory alike BOTH are in hock to this global elitist hyperclass, Charles. So which party will be more efficient at providing the competent administration of our country within a global marketplace dominated by these elites? Labour are proving on an almost daily basis that they are clearly NOT up to the job!
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#294 grandantidote
I think it's fair to say that politically speaking we don't agree about the performance of this current Prime Minister and government. However, I do share your concerns about free speech and the role of the moderators.
According to the BBC's own guidelines, moderators are ONLY supposed to remove comments that breach the House Rules (examples include comments that are offensive, racist, sexist, homophobic etc).
The BBC says, "Messages will not be removed for any other reason"
See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/messageboards/newguide/popup_checking_messages.html
I also had a message removed some time ago. It certainly did not break the House Rules in any way. As I pointed out at the time, publicly accusing someone of breaking the House Rules is a serious matter as it would give the impression that the blogger was 'guilty' of racism, sexism etc etc.
I think that it is quite right that messages are removed if they are offensive or in breach of the house rules - but it seems that the moderators are occasionally 'trigger happy'. The moderators need to follow their own rules!
If a complaint is made about a posting, it should be properly investigated. However, the fact that a complaint was made does not, in itself, justify removal.
As a general observation (not aimed at anyone in particular), I think it's a shame that some people cannot debate serious issues without resorting to insults!
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287.
The reason you are at a loss to understand how I can be so nasty is this.
I do it after severe Provocation ONLY or when I feel someone is taking the pee out of me, AND not before.
Then all hell breaks loose with people taking the length of my tongue.
This sounds overtly sexual in terms of over lengthy tongues. The meaning is taken but the phrase itself has been corrupted to mean something quite different. Isn't it something like 'feeling the force of my tongue'. What is it exactly? Can't put my finger on it just now.
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300
Poor mutley
This isn't a nice woman, i certainly can't use the word lady anymore. Such language from a socialist, the caring party. We will be well rid of them.
Perhaps we can all meet up. I'll bring my mother. She would enjoy it and kiwilegs at 5 feet nothing could tower over my mother who is a full 4 feet 10 inches and shrinking.
Would anyone like to suggest a meeting place?
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# 293 mikepko, hello lad, No I dont think it did have any support, you had support for the immigrant thing from mighty angela and sceptic max but sceptic emphaticaly denied the question about prisoners, you seem to be reluctant to tell us what your mum said about immigrants I wonder why.
You should know without me telling you that I have and never will accuse you of having anything to do with BNP, I have never intenionally accused any body of anything other than the usual friendly banter that takes place here not that I have seen much in the sense of friendly or even respectful comment on this blog which to me seems unecessary , nothing we say will change anything these blogs I thought they were for airing you views not to try to win an abuse contest.Oh! by the way you can tell your friend that I have never in my life called anyone Buddy other than a friend who was known to every one as Buddy.
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It appears that my letter to the interfering Steffani1997 has been removed, I wonder if it is beacuse it frightened the daylights out of her, I wonder if another had it removed before she seen it. When the moderator sends it back it will be adjusted and sent again.
Perhaps there were too many home truths in it for her to digest.
Grandantidote please, did you read the one sent to the objectinable interfering Steffani or was it removed before you had a chance to read it?.
It was mainly about me inb my supposed dottage, petrol, cars etc. my education and my sons and daughters jobs.
Please confirm, if you have read, because I do not expect the coward on here would admit to it if he done the dirty deed I certainly know mikepo did not, as he remarked on it.
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#303 kiwilegs What you say is absolutly true , I did'nt know you from Adam before I decided to join these blogs, we both have the same views on many things and probably because we've been kicking around for a few years we remember many things that some of these Tories dont or dont want too, I think if we were that way inclined we could link up quite a few names on these blogs dont you, but then you and I and one or two others are only interested in facts not fiction..
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305mutlespup, whats your problemwith all these not so latent sexual conitations.
306 mikepko Agood meeting place on these blogs.
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Is it just me or was GB absolutely hopeless again today on PMQ's?
At least he managed to get through without the hold cherry of asking DC a question!
He really does need to work on his diction though - recently it was Alki Aida and now VED has become VAD... why can't he just say it properly???
I do find it amusing when he gets cornered and the stammering starts, heaven help us while he's in charge - I've seen sixth form debating teams do a better job!
One other thing thats been getting me - in order to help with the credit crunch he talks to the big banks and says - you have to do something . The result? banks completely ignore him ad do their own thing.
To help with energy costs he goes up to Scotland to meet Oil companies and triumphantly comes back having agreed to open 2 new areas of North Sea for exploration. How long will that take to come though Gordon? 5, ten years maybe?? Does he really think this is fooling us?
I know the Conservatives are reluctant to say they will drop duty on fuel - and why? The cupboard is bare and as in 1979 in will take years to get the whole mess sorted.
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307
grandantidote, old chap
I think you probably missed my post regarding eastern europeans. My mother said that the problem was that her council tax went up because of the cost of supporting them where she lives and left her worse off because the government won't increase the funding in line with population in Kent, as in other counties.
In fact, she has had several Poles knocking on her door selling pictures. She feels so sorry for them that she invited them in and gave them something to eat and drink.
I don't know if you realise that in eastern Europe it was custom to give strangers a bed for the night and food and drink. My mother was brought up in this custom and has over the years treated many people in the same way. Its just good manners.
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309# Violence is something I would never use not while I can use my tongue as a tool. Plus the fact just looking at any one of our sons or their father for instance, you would need to have on brown trousers and have them tucked into your boots, make no mistake about that. I wonder how brave you would feel. Just picturing it is enough to bring a smile to my face. As for my age well, you are hitting the pits now. Why do you not just give in while you are able
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Kiwilegs...
The board is here to let anyone who wishes post their political opinions. It is certainly not for petty slanging matches and the tone and content of some of your more recent posts is really sailing close to the wind, in my opinion.
I'm a big boy, and no amount of petty posturing or so called threats give me any worry whatsoever.
I enjoy reading the opinions of others, even if I do not agree with them. I think the difference for some is that they see the contrasting viewpoint of another as a red flag to a bull and embark on some futile attempt to 'convert' the other.
Let's just respect each other's differences and get back to the true purpose of the forum -
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308 kiwilegs .No I am afraid they removed that one pretty quick, from what I can see the moderaters have had a day off today , perhaps they did'nt come on until 5pm, its a pity they were'nt on there toes yesterday and this morning. I find that the tories that have no argument are reverting to ageism sexism and I suppose we could call it for want of a better name[me not being to bright you know]grammarism.
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If the cap fits ...................................
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#312 Stefani, Yes now I understand kiwilegs why you were so annoyed, she's criticising Gordons grammer now. When will it end, I suppose like Churchill said said this is not the end, or the begining but its the beginning of the end, or is that as she calls "that hold cherry" "ad do there own thing " "properly or correctly",
No the cupboard was really bare in 1997 after eighteen years of Tories selling all the countries assetts, they say Labours been in for eleven years and should have sorted things the tories were there for eighteen years and brought the country to its knees, you silly billy I hope that does'nt offend you.
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315:
I mistakenly thought you were a lady because of your user name. I see you can look after yourself. Keep up the good work!
I take on board your 'red flag to a bull' type of reaction and must confess it's a rather flawed part of my own nature. I seem to be unable to turn the other cheek when slurs are thrown in my direction. A good dose of ritalin might do the trick. In all other respects I am a placid kind of person but I certainly sometimes suffer from 'post rage' as is evident for all to see. Silly really because I am retired and have no other stresses in my life to make me in any way feel frustrated. I simply loathe GB and all he stands for. I have come across so many of his kind in the work place. I just cannot understand how others cannot see through his weak facade. It is virtually impossible to reason with those who are die hard socialists it seems. After all in just one constituency as many as 12,000 stayed loyal to their leader. Many hundreds of thousands more remain under his spell. C'est la vie I suppose.
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319
I'm a man.
:-)
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319
Being called a silly billy doesn't offend me at all, although I appreciate your concern.
I haven't actually been offended by anything on the board - everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
NOTE TO MODS...
Hats off to you for having to trawl through this lot on a daily basis , whatever you get paid , it's not enough!
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I think I might chnge my user name to obstinate pup. I like the sound of it!
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325
Please believe me when I say that if I felt compelled to have one of your posts removed I would do it in the full knowledge of the rest of the forum.
To be frank I would prefer your posts to remain in the public domain as, in my opinion, it would show some of the spiteful vindictiveness you appear to have, and also the triumphalist attitude you take whenever you perceive to find a flaw in another persons argument.
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Sorry to go off thread by talking about politics again...
... but wasn't it a sickening sight to see Mugabe feted at the food conference in the way he was?
In my opinion it was very wrong to give him any sort of public platform to peddle his completely revisionist history of the problems in Zimbabwe.
Also I see the opposition leader has been taken into custody this afternoon while campaigning.
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327
You know it makes sense!
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331
Kiwilegs said
As for your opinion, sorry men are men in this household and the ladies are glad of it. it is not hard for me to make any comparison, the difference ascreams at one.
I am really sorry but I am having a hard time understanding exactly what this means.
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Hello all
Just back from th pub where knocking back my second pint I had a great idea for a new sport, COMPETITIVE POLITICAL BLOGGING.
We could start with Labour versus Conservatives. Better still, Old Labour versus Conservatives, or even better Old Labour versus The Thatcherites.
It would be like the England versus Australia Ashes. We could play for a trophy, how about a U Turn. And of course we need a referee, how about Nick.
Of course, Old Labour would always have home advantage. It would be too much for them to travel given their ages and means of transport, most probably bicycles. We Tories could of course turn up in our Rollers, Aston Martins and Jags.
I have also been thinking about rules. I think we should continue as now, as it really is fun, but with bonus points for humour (I know this puts Old labour at a disadvantage), and direct hits. Any suggestions for bonus and minus points gladly accepted.
Once we are up and running we could go international. I'm sure that in the USA there are plenty of prospective Republican and Democrat players. Within her own family, kiwilegs could probably providce a few players, but not of her own calibre.
With these we could have the equivalent of the Ryder Cup.
Now into Europe.
France would probably be very good. Their elite are much posher than ours and they have the communists. Real class war here.
Germany would be very ... well, German, but don't mention the War.
Italy, on the other hand has so many political parties that they could form two leagues. All that emotion would probably make us look like amateurs.
Now into Afrca. I had thought of Zimbabwe but I hear that Mugabe has just jailed his opposite number so perhaps not.
Finally, COMPETITIVE POLITICAL BLOGGING might get into the Olympics. No drugs please.
Oh it really is exciting. What do you think Nick, will you be referee?
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332. At 8:03 pm on 04 Jun 2008, Kiwilegs wrote:
I am left with no other alternative now than to realise it was the worm or toad "Wot done it"
Deliberate spelling mistake so do not even go there toad!
Totally baffled...
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334 Mikepo
You sure it was only 2 pints???
Interesting suggestion though...
I have seen posters on other blogs arrange a meet up for a pint and a pie but given the level of feelings on here maybe not the best idea!
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Might I suggest a cessation of hostilities during The Apprentice on BBC1?
Wouldn't want to miss my weekly fix!
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further to post #292 - you should all be in bed by now, some of you without supper! Long day at nursery tomorrow...
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333#
My husband was the Senior Colliery overman of a very large Colliery.
AS a young man he was on mines rescue where the qualifications for that was, as strong as an ox-nerves like steel and a determination to get men out of danger whose lives wre dependent on that after a roof fall left them trapped. A cool calm head was required at all times. Bearing in mind he was the Father of our 6 children and had I have been widowed I would have been left practically destitute to support these kids.
Mines Rescue did not pay a pension only a lump sum which would not have gone far with 6 hungry kids with wolves in their bellies, if he had have been killed whilst tryiing to rescue these trapped miners.
He knew the score about us, as he did about his workmates , he done what he believed to be right and as all miners stick together during adversity he done his bit, so suffice to say he is no wimp.
He then rose through the ranks and is an expert on high explosives which he had to detonate in Gas conditions. Once again this should tell you he is no wimp.
I showed him your remarks tonight especially the one about the petrol, then about how many times I had warned you not to interfere. I done this along with my Grandson, my Husband's reaction was merely GOOD LORD and you say it was a male who wrote that! that was all, my 19 year old grandson said Granny I cannot believe what I am reading ,end of subject.
Suffice to say they were both disgusted that remarks such as yours would come from a man, they both thought they were more in keeping with a spiteful female. There you have it the pure unadulterated truth, not pleasant is it? but that is how two men see you. Sorry you did ask and now I have told you.
It is up to you what you think. One thing for sure it would not alter their opinion, they were disgusted to say the least.
As I was when I found out you were male. I expected that sort of thing from a contrary female but definately not from a male.
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re: posting 280:
At the moment the government need a warrant, but they're trying to pass legislation now to automatically collect all this information by default on everyone, without the use of a warrant.
Yes, businesses do want to snoop for commercial reasons (rather than for sinister thought-police reasons), but can't without your permission. (although companies like BT are trying very hard to get round that too).
The "if you haven't done anything wrong then you've got nothing to hide" argument would be spurious; just ask Menezes' parents what they'd think about that argument.
I used to laugh at conspiracy theories thinking they were all bunk, but given what's happened in the last 5 years or so and labour/Brown's general attitude, I don't laugh anymore.
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Now we've established the scope of data collected by both business and government, the reason it's collected is interesting. It's neutral in itself but business does use data to reinforce its own power and push its way into people's lives. That's a fact. Meanwhile, the policy planning and law enforcement uses government may use data for are downplayed. And, yes, business can and does snoop in breach of the law and over 50% of companies fail to comply with adequate data protection quite seperately from an government data issues.
Most of the paranoia is coming from CND retreads who can't stop putting the knife into their own peoples back, and the right wing who like to sow disharmony as part of their guerrrila marketing campaign. However, both of these "concerned" power blocs are strangely silent on reality.
Really, people just need to get informed and discuss these things. Going for THE WIN is just so much ego. It makes life harder than it need be and you don't really gain anything from it.
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Dear all
Off to Kent for a few days to see my sainted mother.
Kiwilegs, my deepest apology for winding you up so much. You are such an easy target, always coming back for more even when you say you will not respond. CEH was perfectly right..
I really do feel sorry for you being so full of bile and anger at people, still fighting the class war that ended ages ago. I thought that only Dennis Skinner belonged to the Dennis Skinner School of Politics but sadly I have been proved wrong several times.
I shall not wind you up any more.
Anyway, will post again in a few days.
PS Please give consideration to the COMPETITIVE POLITICAL BLOGGING competition I outlined in 334.
In reality politics is only a game played by those with power at the expense of us with out it, and thos politicians and us need ridiculing from time to time.
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Nick
334# and 356# COMPETITIVE BLOGGING
Isn't this what is already happening to your blog ?? I approve of creating a separate place for this - see 137# "The bore 'em forum"
Wouldn't need a referee, however. More a playground monitor.
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I am troubled that anyone who so whole heartedly believes in the 42 day rule or is willing while not in total belief but out of loyalty to a party leader to stand forward to convince other members of her party that it is a good and necessary weapon in the fight against terrorism.
Although there is a kind of integrity in both positions, I am troubled.
This government shows itself willing to surrender hard-won rights and freedoms in the vain hope that doing so will heal the paranoia which so affects it at this time.
Imprisonment without trial is an evil.
Relying on chosen judges to check its misuse is no safeguard.Though he was Master of the Rolls Lord Denning's utterances in the matter of the appeal of the Birmingham Six prove this point.
To claim that Members debating without being allowed the facts of a case offer a check to misuse of the rule is not evil, it is ridiculous.
There seems to be delight in Parliament and the media at the quality of her performance, but I see this, unfortunately, as merely a continuation of the "Forget the message, it's the messenger that counts" of the last 10 years.
I repeat, I am troubled.
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Re dhwilkinson@366
Garyelsby@14 on Cameron direct. sorry. it was returned. unfounded.
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I wish to state clearly for the record that my comment at #368 did NOT break the House Rules in any way.
I merely questioned why so many postings were being removed by the moderators.
The rules clearly state that comments will be removed if they are offensive, racist, homophobic etc.
However, according to the rules "messages will not be removed for any other reason"
See:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/messageboards/newguide/popup_checking_messages.html
Questioning the moderators is NOT in breach of the House Rules.
To publicly accuse someone of breaking the House Rules is a serious matter as other bloggers may assume (wrongly) that the posting contained an offensive remark.
The moderators are clearly in breach of their own guidelines.
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The majority wins. That is what democracy is all about.
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