Laughing off a late life crisis
Wow. Cor blimey. Gordon Bennett.
Just some of the repeatable things said round Westminster on hearing the news that David Davis planned to step into the history books by resigning his seat to take the fight for civil liberties to the people.
What David Cameron said in private when he was told - not asked, not consulted, mind you - is probably unbroadcastable.
The two Tory Davids - one who beat the other to become Tory leader - insist they've not fallen out and not rowed about policy.
David Davis has, however, bounced his leader into a by-election he didn't want, on an issue he wanted to move on from and he has done it without consulting his colleagues in the shadow cabinet. It is hard to see how the two men could work comfortably with each other in future.
The man who is already the former shadow home secretary insists he's making a principled stand and laughs off suggestions from friends and foes alike that he's having a late life crisis.
A politician who is a self-confessed adrenalin junkie has just injected a little unpredictability into British politics.
PS: Earlier I wrongly said that there was no precedent for this. Thanks to those who pointed to the following:
George Lansbury, 1912
The Labour MP for Tower Hamlets, Bow and Bromley resigned to fight a by-election on a platform of votes for women. The Labour Party disapproved of his resignation and Lansbury lost the contest to the Conservative candidate by 731 votes.
Northern Ireland, 1986
All 15 Ulster unionist MPs resigned and provoked by-elections in protest over the Anglo-Irish Agreement. 14 of them were re-elected, many with increased majorities, but they ultimately failed to influence Government policy.
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Nick I'm a little perplexed by your attitude to Davis' resignation. In between watching you and, I think, the Policial Editor at the Telegraph, describing how ridiculous and dangerous the move was, we had the news reader saying that "99%" of comments coming in were in strong support of Mr Davis. Do you remember who politicians work for Nick, yes that's right, the same people you're meant to - the public. An overwhelming majority of whom seem to have acquired a new found affection for a Tory. Now you're not stupid and you must be able to see the public response, so why are you reporting this in such a biased manner?
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Perhaps he thinks this point really is above party politics. I do. Shame more MPs dont vote with their conscience than simply follow the party line. It would surely lead to much better quality legislation. It has been shameful that so many MPs either abstained, or had their votes on such a fundamental issue purchased by the PM.
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Nick, instead of reporting rumours can you outline the possible outcomes of this story?
OK, it's unpredictable but you can hedge your bets and give us chaps off the street something to go on.
You sound like you have a ghost writer from the Labour spin team at the moment.
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You are still peddling the line that this is a problem for the Tories???
Go and challenge some Labour toadies on this one. Better still, find some of the Labour rebels and see what they think.
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Nick
This is just what you said on the BBC News. Now instead of going home to Notting Hill, or wherever you live and having a laugh with your friends about what we, the uneducated plebs, write on this blog, try sitting down and providing us with a balanced view of today's news.
This is really important to the freedom loving public. You may find yourself seriously ridiculed if you don't put some balance into your reporting.
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I can imagine Cameron is angry, this move will make him only the 3rd most important Tory in the country for the next couple of months...
One interesting aspect of this story is the rolling over of the Lib Dems. Surely by not competing they are saying to the electorate that the Conservatives are the party to defend Civil Liberties
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"is hard to see how the two men could work comfortably with each other in future"
News or speculation? Do you have any evidence that the working relationship between the two of them has broken down - if so, that would be NEWS.
Please, for heaven's sake, let us know what is actually happening.
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Nick
Again you are following the line given to you by Labour media types.
This is not what we expect from you.
Actually, now it is what we have come to expect.
David Davis has given a very clear account of his decision. He has taken a principled stand.
Now I know it might be hard for a journalist of your ilk to believe this - but a lot (and looking round the webosphere - a vast majority) of people can see what he has done and support his stand.
Principles in politics have been missing for a long time - it is good to see them return
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9 simonofoxford
Please don't suggest to political journalists that we need our MPs to be principled. If that were to happen they would be out of a job AND we would have proper government.
Heaven forbid!!!
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My first comment has been passed over to moderation however it simply repeats what has been mentioned above i.e. that Nick Robinson is peddling unsubstantiated rumour and conjecture as fact.
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As a very confirmed non Conservative voter Davis has hugely gone up in my estimation. He is actually taking a stand for what he believes to be right rather than what may be good for his political career. Something that is sorely lacking in MP's of the other parties.
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This looks like a "moment of madness". Maybe, he'll get the seat back. It's an easy ticket anyway. Problem is, the guy's a busted flush. What's next? Is he going to run naked through parliament with his pants on his head or something?
Jeez. Take up some Zen, dude.
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#7: "One interesting aspect of this story is the rolling over of the Lib Dems. Surely by not competing they are saying to the electorate that the Conservatives are the party to defend Civil Liberties"
Well, you could argue that the Lib Dems are taking a principled stand about this. They accept that Davis is going to make this by-election all about locking people up for 42 days, and since the Lib Dems agree with Davis, they are putting the issues above party politics and giving Davis their support.
However, the Lib Dems are politicians too, so although that's a possible scenario, I guess it's more likely that they have some sneaky ulterior motive. But wouldn't it be nice if they were all being principled just for once?
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#8edgarbug :" News or speculation? Do you have any evidence that the working relationship between the two of them has broken down - if so, that would be NEWS."
It's quite amusing really. I recall making almost exactly the same comment more than once when the political journalists were reporting the internicine warfare going on between Blair and Brown. Of course, then the tory contributors loved it. Unfortunately for me then, and them now, the journalists were shown to be largely accurate on this, if not on many other stories.
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@BrightonML
He went straight up in my estimation, too, when first I heard the news. Mind you, he slipped somewhat when I learnt that his is a safe seat and he had been critical of the 1998 Human Rights Act.
Still, at least someone is not prepared to let the issue drop and for that he should be applauded.
And whilst many commentators and bloggers may support him, it's depressing to note that opinion polls (Yougov was one cited) are suggesting the public at large are 70% in favour of extending the length of time suspects can be held without charges being brought.
This leaves to ponder the unpalatable truth that, on this issue at least, Gordon Brown may actually be in touch with the public, so ultimately it may be an empty gesture.
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A principled senior politician.
Naaaah, you don't fool me that easily :-)
This is an "and finally" story that will turn out to be a complete rumour ... right ?
Score +1 for the Tories [did I just say that?]
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I suppose it's not surprising that BBC commentators have been so hard on David David brave stand against the "database state."
I'm a Labour voter, and usually keen on the BBC, but I am sure I am not alone in finding the BBC's broadcasts threats - based on its database - to license non-payers more than a little Orwellian.
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Who is "Laughing off a late life crisis"? He resigns on a matter of principle. That is to be applauded. Robin Cook would be pleased. I watched his resignation speech on TV and couldn't believe my eyes or ears. It was very refreshing. In the media driven world of politics and spin today I think you were caught on the back foot. Sour grapes?
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If Gordon Brown has any sense he won't put a candidate up. He cannot win in such a strong Tory seat where the second party Lib Dems will support Davis on principle.
Labour couldn't win a by-election now if they offered every voter £1,000,000. (And neither do they deserve to...)
When he wins it will NOT be about 42 days detention. If the Tories as a whole were so certain it's a single issue national debate they can win why have they not pushed for a referendum?
Answer because they'll lose, and they know it.
I say this as a floating voter who probably would be a conservative supporter had Davis won the leadership.
I do not doubt his sincerity although I disagree and do have severe doubts about the sincerity of some of his colleagues. Unfortunately, this has just removed one of the two members of the front bench that truly resonate with non-traditional Tories. (The other being William Hague).
Also it's interesting that 28 days did not in his opinion break ranks with the Magna Carta. I don't remember it being that specific, obviously my old school need to revise their history lessons !
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The Tao comments that people who talk up morality take their attention off being moral, and people who are moral are so busy being moral they don't have time to talk about it. The Prime Minister compares well with David Davies in that regard.
I note, the seratonin buzz addicts are peppering their comment with "principle" and giving each other hearty backslaps, while casually ignoring the focused and consensual approach of people who don't fit their world view. Close, but no cigar.
This is just more Mugabe style politics and if Cameron can't fully support it as some Tory's can't fully support the CBI, perhaps, there's a shred of humanity in them. If they came out against corporate bullying and the low wage economy it might grow a bit.
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Awesome! Conviction politics. Well done David Davies, nobody can accuse him of being bought off by anyone for 'pieces of silver'.
I am so pleased that someone is taking a stand on civil liberties. Come on Shami Chakrabarti - lets get behind David Davis. There is a big list to fight for:
- 42 days
- E-mail snooping
- ID cards
- Criminalisng children for minor issues
- CCTV Britain
- Database incompetence
The government is obsessed with controlling us, they find it easier to meddle with peoples lives than to do anyhing positive for the country.
The benefits of society are health, education, trade and defence of our freedom. Increased control over our own population is not a benefit.
We have to stand up and stop this governments 'control-the-people-instinct'. We should help David Davies fight the by-election by going to London and protest marching en-masse.
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From what Davies is continuously saying - I want, I want, I want - looks like the man is more arrogant then previously thought.
What would the Tories say if this had happened within the Labour Party? Here is what the media would come up with:-
There you have it, the rifts are coming our in the open, the cracks are more visible then before, look at the way MPs are defying Brown and do what they want, ignoring his command. He has lost all control of his own MPs.
But, thank God it is happening to the Tories.
Even though the BBC has no knowledge of this yet, but Labour will not be putting forward a candidate to take part in this pantomime called ?David and Goliath? Now who of the two would Goliath be? Good night Nick.
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"He is actually taking a stand for what he believes to be right rather than what may be good for his political career. Something that is sorely lacking in MP's of the other parties"
BrightonML
I'd like to remind people that not every Labour MP slavishly obeyed the party whips, and nor did Anne Widdecombe for that matter - all voted according to their various consciences.
Also, I rather disagree with the implication that this isn't good for his political career. He is almost certain to win re-election, the Lib Dems having been his only meaningful opposition in 2005, since which Labour has gone down in the polls even further, and perhaps (dependent on turnout) with an increased majority.
Not to mention the kudos from the additional name recognition and the challenge to David Cameron's authority that he poses (this isn't to say I perhaps agree with Nick in his assessment they have been unable to work together, although I wouldn't be surprised - senior MPs are always clambering over each other, working together when it suits them but with one eye on the top job).
In any event, I'm sure in a few years time when (sadly) the next Tory government is returned, he may well come back as an influential minister with one of the more relished departments.
Before anyone attacks this (although no doubt they will anyway), I honestly do believe him that he disagrees with 42-day detention in principle - hell, I'm of the same opinion (although I question the actual value of the Magna Carta in protecting the ordinary subject's rights, in balance against other, less well-known acts of legislation).
But he is most certainly not resigning merely out of principled opposition to a measure... there is absolutely political calculation and self-interest behind this.
Finally, I don't reckon Cameron will lose a great deal of sleep over this - Davis will have his moment in the limelight, will give another perceived kicking to the government and no doubt win over the elements of the Mail and Sun-reading population who previously supported 42-days (according to the leading questions asked in polls) towards understanding that Human Rights (aka Civil Liberties) are not the EU/Socialist/Muslim plot they're largely made out to be.
Or so we can hope.
It's not worth getting ourselves too excited about though, I suppose - this will be ancient history within three months, and Davis will return to his relative obscurity amongst the general population.
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#24
do us all a favour and disconnect this blog from your RSS feed a day early. It would make it that much quicker to cut through the chaff.
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At last a politician standing up for his beliefs. In these days of unprincipalled and career opportunists this is a breath of fresh air. I only wish I could cast a vote in any election.
My guess is Labour will be too chicken to stand against him.
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The law should be changed so that an MP who resigns cannot stand again in the same Parliament. We worry about MPs' expenses - what about the totally avoidable expense this MP has caused? As a taxpayer I have already paid for an election to put him in Westminester for a whole Parliament.There is no suggestion that he is benefitting personally financially, but if DD wants to show his principles, he should do so at his own expense (or the expense of those who think standing in a no real contest safe seat show courage) and not mine!
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Whilst i applaud anyone having the courage of their convictions to resign their seat.
I find it a waste of time and money for the same candidate to be allowed to stand,especially as this has not yet become Law.
I would rather have seen people take a stand on the No referendum "promise" which has far more constitutional concerns than this matter at the moment.
Having said that i am against the 42 days not so much the length of time its the involvement of MP's in a judicial role that i am against.
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What a wicked waste of taxpayers' money!
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Arguably Tony Benn fought a bye-election on the issue of being able to renounce his peerage, although he was compelled to resign on the death of his father.
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Lets get this straight, if Clegg had decided to run against Davies, Davies wouldn't have run and not been so 'courageous', because he might have lost his seat. Hmmm. In other words he will run only if he is sure to win. So Liberals dictate Tory policy. When 'Magna Carta ' was dragged into he mix, I remembered Tony Hancock saying, 'Magna Carta, did she die for nothing?' A bit like the career of Davies.
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You can sway either of two ways here. Okay he's in a relatively safe Tory seat so you might thing the gesture is an empty one and calculated to try and cause the Government embarrassment. They in turn have only to neglect to field a candidate to make the whole operation meaningless. On the other hand the move will not have endeared him to the party leadership and the chance of a Ministerial post has seriously receded. He must also be aware that the majority of The General Public including myself disagree with him. I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt believing that he feels very strongly about the issue. I think he's going about it the wrong way but he doesn't deserve the flak he's getting from his opponents. Too often politicians disregard their inner held beliefs in order to preserve the status quo.
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I wonder how many people using the emotive and, largely, mythical cry of Magna Carta have actually read the thing (or one of its many versions and revisions). It sounds a bit like all those hardcore Trots who'd never actually read any Karl Marx.
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Why is everyone apluading this man for his convictions? The outcome of this byelection is certain as it is a safe tory seat and whatever the result is it will be no indication of what the British public think about 42 days. Why dosent he contest a marginal seat on the 42 days platform? When he does that I will aplaud his convictions. Until then no other conclusion can be made other than all this is a stunt designed to boost his ego and damage labour by producing the illusion that the tories have achieved another victory. All quite bizarre really.
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Nick
what will this really achieve and who is going to pay for it.
If Davis wanted to draw attention to this issue why not just resign and use his influence to support the Liberty campaign, that would have been real courage.
Instead he has decided to stand in a by-election of his own creation in a seat he will certainly win..I fail to see the bravery there.
This is another example of Cameron being sat on by the members of his party who carry the real weight. I'm sure that Cameron must have tried to talk Davis out of this but Davis simply didn't respect his leader enough to listen.
This makes Cameron look seriously week.
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I keep seeing comments to the effect that Davis's resignation is on a point of principle. I would be very grateful if someone who supports that line would take the trouble to explain to a poor idiot like me what the point of principle might be. It can't be the issue of detention without charge, because Davis voted for (I think sponsored) the proposal to allow 28 days before charge. Is there some mystical point in time between 4 weeks and 6 weeks where a principle suddenly appears? Or is the argument about practicality rather than principle?
BTW, I saw on the BBC site that if nobody stands against him, he will simply be returned without a vote. Much Ado About Nothing?
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Talk about spin. People worrying about the tiny expense of a by-election (hey, it's the price of democracy) yet don't seem to be bothered by this legislation being bought with £1,200,000,000 of our money.
And Labour are crowing that they have split the Tories?
So this is what the legislation was all about? Urinate on our coveted rights just to do a bit of damage to a rampant opposition? Is this how contemptuous Labour are of us?
It is noteworthy that Margaret Thatcher never sought to pass such legislation. Even though she was directly targetted by terrorists. And many of those close to her killed by them. But the chance to split Cameron and Davis...great, let's steal twenty quid off every man, woman and child in the country and pass the most oppressive legislation in the world to achieve this.
These are the people running our country.
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Nick,
Your piece on the British Six was one of the most biased, smug and self-satisfied editorials I've seen for a long time.
David Davis has started a public debate that should have been properly conducted in the weeks and days before yesterday's diabolical hijacking of the democratic process. Brown bribed his way to win the vote by the narrowest of margins.
All of the media have concentrated on the angle of Brown's authority within his own party rather than the fundamental issue of liberty. The principle of habeas corpus is 800 years old. New Labour is hell-bent on destroying that principle in a single Parliamentary term.
The terrorists are winning without lifting a finger.
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Yes well, two words, tory - miners.
That was then and this is now, and all that, but it seems a bit rich a tory talking about our freedoms at this late a stage, honestly, our freedom horse bolted a while back now and makes Davids actions look a tad silly.
His speech was good and very much needed, especially half way in, make no mistake I do support what he said it just feels too little too late.
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I would guess that Cameron is really stir-fry crazy mad at Davis (correct spelling at last) for doing this.
Because Cameron thinks, in the conventional way that a party machine leader would think, that he has to run a tight orderly highly disciplined ship.
In fact, I think that the opposite would be much better, near chaos with all of these politicians fighting like rats-in-a-sack.
It has been demonstrated time and time again (thanks Danny Finklestein, Times) that that, more diversity of input, would actually produce better outcomes.
More mavericks are needed not less.
PS. #41
'These are the people running our country'.
I have found that the only way to keep some sanity about this is to think of a 'zombie political entity, namely Britain' as a sort of political aberration, which has only got a couple of years or so left to live before we English get our country back.
If you can think of it like that, it is not so bad because then there is a lot to look forward to.
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Liberty have their uses but are just another campaign group who want attention, like the environmentalists who are now opposing the Severn barrage. Amnesty International and Greenpeace jumped the shark in similar ways. Their "authority" has since diminished accordingly.
From an old blogging buddy of mine:
Think a little harder. It won't hurt. Much.
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Labour excusing the Tories of wasting public money after 2.7bn was wasted trying to make up for the 10p tax band cockup?
those in glass houses and throwing of stones etc etc etc.
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Amusing that when Nick Robinson reports events pretty much straight his fans object that he is being pro Labour.
When I object to his usual drip drip drip of what appears to me to be tory propaganda my post was removed.
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Why does it say on the main page
"BBC Political Editor Nick Robinson said it was an extraordinary move which was almost without precedent in British politics."
You didn't qualify your original suggestion. You said what you said - even though you have nowadmitted the error.
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Well done D.D. His principled stance contrasts beautifully with how Brown and Labour behaved to get this ill judged and unnecessary legislation through.
It was laughable to hear the BBC scrambling around to try and make this into a problem for the Conservatives. The slant they were trying to put on the story on R5 was so out of touch with their listeners comments.
Simon Mayo kept presenting it as a Tory split, presumably at his producers behest, and even the Labour guests were contradicting him.
The BBC need to wise up quick to the public mood on this one. We're sick of career politicians worried more about keeping their nose in the trough than standing up for what they believe in. And we're fast losing patience with a Public Service Brodcaster, funded from the public purse, that is becoming more and more overtly biased in its reporting.
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C_E_H
If you decide to leave the site, I hope you take with you your disreputable comment..
"This is just more Mugabe style politics"
Even Blair waited until he was almost out of office before building castles in the air for his wife. Mugabe didn't. His wife (a secretary) and he claimed that the multi-million dollar mansion was built from her savings. (I admit that Cherie could make more than Tony, but the sudden surge in property has nothing to do with getting the security forces to run around and "take out" people who didn't agree with them.) Are you saying that any opposition to some pretty odd government comments must be wrong, just because they are different?
The international economic situation has not been the cause of Brown's current problems - it just brought into focus the waste of tax-payers' money over the last 8 or 9 years.
Scrap a few unnecesary things - like an ID card that will bring no benefits - and the current expenditure could come back under a little control.
Keep talking about a "Blessed Leader", as if we need a North Korean dictatorship, and, what ever blog you choose to inhabit will suffer.
Does Brown have a moral compass - I have no doubt. Can he moderate that, so that pensioners, carers, the low paid can survive without begging the "State" for support?
That's a pretty big ask.
The State should not be intrusive.
This adminsitration (meaning the Blair / Brown combo) has become just too much for most people to suffer.
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It is a principled stand
He is asking any supporter of the Governments position to stand against him in the by - election and to see who wins.
If 69% of the people support 42 days then he should lose.
Right?
As for a waste of taxpayers money. Give me a break. £2.7bn to try to win the Crewe by-election. £1.2 bn to buy the DUP vote.
Seems to me far to many people (Nick) just can't stand to see a principled politician fight his corner.
The BBC (Nick) need to stop acting as a the main cheerleader for the Government and to start taking an objective view.
Fat Chance there I think
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We've had lots of criticsm of Nick, some of it from me, this afternoon. Having looked at the news on several channels, the same seems to be happening. And many of us cannot see why a man, whether right or wrong, sticking to his principles is being pilloried.
I have a theory (marketing and PR is part of my business).
Lobby correspondents all have their sources, and it is obvious as they broadcast to us that they take pride in knowing things we don't.
I firmly believe that part of today's poking fun at David Davis is because they didn't know and are almost embarrassed by the fact.
The coverage has been very un-balanced across the media. In the cold light of day I hope coverage will be more balanced. This is a very interesting development, and I for one admire David Davis greatly for the stand he is making.
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It does seem that hardly anyone appreciates the Islamo-fascist menace or the tools which are being put into place to address it.
The UK has a unique position owing to its former empire, of both vulnerability and leadership.
None of these is a silver bullet; none is useless as the Tory Gizzajob set make out.
Davies is going to find himself being treated unduly kindly for a time, Tory media, BBC etc.
The companies involved in the ID cards, and the CCTV camera manufacturers for examples will be producing facts which Davies will have to try and refute. He will have no chance.
This campaign will most likely make more of the British public more aware of the threats we face together, and also the means we need to counter these.
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Actually, this is very very clever.
Provided the LibDems stay out of it and the tories leave it to Davis to stand as an 'Anti-42 Day independent' then this will be a straight fight between Davis and a Labour stooge who has no option other than to support the 42 day law and fight a by-election on that one single issue.
The UK national press coverage will be immense and if Davis actually increases his vote - which he will - and the Labour candidates vote goes down - which it will - then basically you've held a referendum on the 42 day law and Brown will have convincingly lost.
Before any pro-42'ers jump on the bandwagon, you should remember that Davis is former Special Forces and I did G2 (Int) in NI during the 'Troubles'. Any of you think Davis knows nothing about terrorism (or me), then tell us your credentials or go away.
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9:31 pm on 12 Jun 2008, mikepko
Cameron D was a PR man too, albeit only in a TV company which went tits up.
He doesn't appear to agree with you.
Interesting that Sir David Steel (?) was also an advertising man - much the same trade imho - and that only labour hasn't elected as Leader anyone from these dark arts.
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So, Davis has resigned. He?s called a hissy-fit by-election ? the first in history apparently. Yes ? this is an unprecedentedly vain and hollow piece of political bravado. It is historic. No one wants to fight him (who can blame them? he?s former SAS), no one understands why he has to fight a by-election to demonstrate his fondness for civil liberties; but he?s going to damn well do it anyway. No one ? not Gordon Brown, not the Murdoch press, not hundreds of years of accepted Parliamentary practice, not common sense, not even David Cameron ? is going to stop him.
Just think, though: what if they all start doing it? What if he?s just the first Tory MP to have this particular eureka moment? We?re all vulnerable to crazes, fads and bubbles. Imagine a Parliament in which the Conservative Party has done the decent thing and resolved to act as the kamikaze party? The remaining Parliamentarians appreciate the increased elbow space at the bars; there is a fire sale of Tory offices; Labour MPs stretch out in the Chamber, taking to sitting on both sides of the Speaker?s Chair; a wonderful spirit of bonhomie and harmony descends on the House of Commons. Without the Conservatives, MPs finally get round to doing all of the things that they had always been meaning to do, but had never been able to find the time for. A fair tax system is introduced. Child poverty is abolished. Comprehensive environmental legislation is passed. Nuclear disarmament begins. All of a sudden no one can remember why they used to think governing Britain was such a tricky business?
It could happen. If we want it bad enough it just might happen.
Read about Davis at greater length by searching for my blog, just who the hell are we?, on wordpress.com.
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Nick, take some time off talking to the same people (politicos, journos, and think-tank policy wonks) and pay attention to what the public are saying about David Davis.
You're sure to be surprised at the strength and popularity of his stand against this governments authoritarian tendencies as expressed by the great majority of individuals (not 'commentators') on the internet and elsewhere.
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56 QA
Don't understand you point at all. What are you TRYING to say.
I have no idea about DC and whether he agrees with my point or not.
Totally confused.
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Davis is concerned about the 'creeping surveillance society'.
The prime justification for ID cards is moooted as 'security' but the Government can never say that it would prevent terrorist outrages.
I do not believe that security is the primary driver for ID cards and I wish the Government could be more honest about why they are so keen on it.
In my opinion, it is much, much more likely to be mianly deployed for combatting fraud, especially fraud against Government facilities such as the 'benefits system'.
Di you know for example, that there are roughly 65 million people in the country but around 80 million NI numbers in circulation.
That is a lot of ghosts.
I strongly believe that ID cards should be optional but Government could make it more-or-less mandatory in certain circumstances e.g. for people claiming benefits.
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If you're suggesting that Gordon Brown develop the confidence and build support for taking on the arrogance of big companies and levelling up the low paid, and forcing a more investment led approach and fairer society, I agree.
The Tories could rehabilitate themselves and be part of that vision but not if they cringe from opposing the CBI and allow the leafy subhurbs to be subsidised by the poor. Their historical lack of reason and consensus is holding them back.
Some people may think I'm an apologist for Labour and framing the Tories but other minds might think I'm framing Gordon Brown and giving the Tories a clue. This is all a matter of perspective. I'm just a simple idiot so couldn't comment.
All hail Blessed Leader!
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We're told the majority of people support the government on 42 days. Well, this is their opportunity to show how strongly they do support it. Will they put up a candidate?
Doesn't have to be a Labour candidate, an independent might be more appropriate. Just a candidate to oppose David Davis, to stand in support of such things as 42 days.
I wonder if the BNP intend to put forward a candidate? Do Labour want to run the risk of having the BNP stand in support of the government's policies?
Perhaps Quietzapple could stand.
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#55
SigInt.
I hope Davis has a plan B - for the situation whereby Labour do not put up a candidate.
Seeing as Labour are virtually broke anyhow (witness Brown's terse one word response on that at this mornings PM questions) that could well be what happens.
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#15. The Lib Dems I think ARE making a principled stand but in doing so Nick Clegg seems to be letting go of their raison d'etre. The Lib Dems could still run a candidate arguing that the Conservatives are not the true champion of civil liberties because of x,y,z. They aren't acting like a serious party.
That said, it's looking likely that the Labour party are going to be the real losers: it's inevitable that they'll wuss out of the by-election and will be seen as cowards.
So I think it was a clever move by Davis.
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Quietzapple @53 says:
"It does seem that hardly anyone appreciates the Islamo-fascist menace or the tools which are being put into place to address it."
I do not dispute the seriousness of the (aptly named) Islamo-fascist menace. I do, however, dispute the efficacy of the "tools being put into place".
I find it strange to be in agreement with you, Quietzapple, (as I enjoy baiting you from time to time), but you are right that the vested interests of IT companies will be brought to bear against DD. These are, of course, the same companies whose projects either never work properly to spec, or massively exceed their budgets. And then the DVDs get lost in the post.....
The BBC, of course loves all this IT because it increases their sense of 'empire'. Hence the notorious stasi-like TV spots about their TV licence infamous 'database'.
This erosion of personal freedom and privacy must be stopped - and reversed. David Davis has made a stand - and is probably as surprised as anyone at the popular chord it has struck.
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Hi CEH
The truest thing you have ever posted - "I'm just a simple idiot."
Join the club.
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Mickey
Cameron D advised Davies that his proposed course of action was risky, Davies says.
Under a little pressure from Nick Robinson he went a little fey and made out that Cameron D hadn't tried to dissuade him, but . . .
You reckon you know PR, Cameron did it for a living, sorry I back Cameron and my own judgement against you and Davies.
Up with the play NOW?
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Nick still doesn't get it, bless him. It's not a split in Tory ranks, it's one of the most tactically brilliant shaftings of a government seen in years.
Have a look at Have Your Say, Nick, and see if you can work out how this is playing with the electorate.
If you still haven't caught up, at least look at the leaders in tomorrow's papers.
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#23 ... I, for one, would be quite willing in an election, to vote for anyone if they offered me £1,000,000. However, to get back to reality, it's been said on other postings, Davis' resignation speech sounded like it came from a man on the edge ... he's a brilliant politician and I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but, I'm worried about him.
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Nick
Thanks for this post. It seems to reflect what you said on piece you did for the TV, and is much more balanced than your earlier post, which (probably went meant) didn't read very well.
ttfn
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Red Lenin
Why do you imagine that an SAS man 20 years in business etc knows much about Islamo-fascism?
The absence of a Lib-Dem candidate in this by-election (unless the Liberal party fields one) makes it likely that Labour would gain votes, all other things being equal.
When Cameron says Davies has made a "very courageous" decision, he signals that he is a loose cannon with a mad streak.
Labour will benefit long term too from the Lib-Dems' complicity which will rightly be portrayed as showing that there is only one sane capable party, and two right wing opposition ones.
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@ 57 adammcnestrie, Labour have had a large majority for 11 years, and yet you seem to believe that "A fair tax system is introduced. Child poverty is abolished. Comprehensive environmental legislation is passed. Nuclear disarmament begins." has been prevented by the tories??? you cannot be serious.
Under labour, the rich have got richer and the poor poorer. Social justice has reversed further since 1997. We are less free as a nation.
Thank goodness for David Davis. Now we shall see if labour have the guts to defend their police state policies.
I suspect that they are terrified of actually going toe to toe with Davis over a matter of principle and will not field a candidate. At which point we will know that labour are rank cowards that would rather sell out our hard fought for freedoms by appeasing terrorists than face a public debate in an arena where they do not have a built in bribable majority over the rights of the issue.
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Not sure whether you are kind 9:55 pm on 12 Jun 2008, Active_Citizen but I reckon a yorkshireman/woman would be best there.
I have lived in N Yorks and parachuting someone in looks like a mistake, just as the prancing toff spoof Labour used in Crewe did.
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Why has my post that accused Nick of the worst form of yellow journalism for writing a hit piece on Davis instead of reporting on the real and growing anger amongst the public at the growing police state?
Nick has been on the wrong side of the public mood on this.
How does that break house rules? Is truth to be censored?
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I suspect that labour will treat this as another By-election, for the most part.
Davies has his agenda, Labour and its candidate have theirs.
Gordon Brown will not want to refight the 42 day vote again, why should he when he has won it, will likely lose it in the Lords and then push it through whatever Davies does?
HMG has a superb economic record, there will be local issues, Labour needs someone who knows about North Ferriby (if in the constituency - unsure) to fight this by-election, I wonder if anyone can be found?
Davies' agenda cannot be sustained in the face of a god solid campaign imho.
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10:10 pm on 12 Jun 2008, purpleDogzzz
"real and growing anger amongst the public at the growing police state"
A reference to the police on London's busses, and the riot against the ban on alcoholic refreshment on LT?
Or just another attempt at another unlikely bandwagon?
As you are a toryboy/worse have you got round to pointing out Nick Robinson's former affiliation? and High position?
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"David Davis's dramatic resignation threatened to backfire tonight as rival parties pulled out of contesting a by-election."
"... the bombshell appeared to be turning into an embarrassment."
"Mr Davis's position was made worse ..."
"Mr Davis's announcement earlier today plunged the Tories into chaos."
Not my words but a Tory daily - rhymes with fail.
This is a blatant stunt pulled by DD as a non too subtle first step to become Tory party leader.
Chichester, Dover, Spelman and now Davis - this is the reality of the Tory party.
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The questions have been asked many times: "Why did he do this? What point did this action serve?"
I would ask: "What *could* he do?"
I think he needed to do something and all he can realistically do is make a statement. His action does that and I respect him greatly for it.
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Why are the BBC making negative and despairing comments about a new and exciting development in politics. As a commentator on Politics there should be an unbais reportage and debate. We hear the comments about how Mr Davis sanity is being called into question. I am now questioning the BBC's sanity. The BBC should be reporting the information and the facts in a truthful and accurate way. The goverment are spinning and twisting the facts, this makes it harder for the British people to trust the truthfullness of what we hear. We expect the BBC to present the information in a direct and unbaised way.
We find that the BBC are now spinning and twisting for the goverment about what the Conservative leader is thinking, but we didnot hear any comments about the Labour leaders re-action. Now will the BBC give any information if the Labour will put a candidate against Mr Davis or will they run scared about the 42 day policy.
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From the FT:
"Mr Cameron will be forced to lend a supportive presence to a by-election he does not want, fought on an issue where most voters disagree with Tory policy, most likely held during the agenda-setting past few days before parliament breaks up for the long summer holidays.
?Brown was on the back foot and we?ve lent him a helping hand,? said one disgruntled Tory MP. Another shadow cabinet member could barely disguise his anger: ?David Davis is tilting at a non-existent enemy, for genuinely felt but entirely egotistical reasons?.?.?.?he?s fighting on a point of principle that is already official party policy, in a by-election head-to-head with the Monster Raving Loony Party.?
I am shocked to be commenting among so many tory blaggers of such appallingly bad judgement.
I am able to make my advice available at very reasonable rates, no cheques.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Notable that Nick Robinson now looks shocked, usually when he is castigating Gordon Brown he seems agitated and angry.
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C_E_H
"If you're suggesting that Gordon Brown develop the confidence and build support for taking on the arrogance of big companies and levelling up the low paid, and forcing a more investment led approach and fairer society, I agree...
All hail Blessed Leader!""
Me too. But when has he done that, over a decade?
Many companies have done stupid things. Where was Brown with a big stick to stop them?
Who was in charge when QinetiC was privatised? Big GB. So why did he fail to spot that civil servants invested a little, but got enormous returns from money they probably borrowed on a short-term basis?
Good old GB.
Who set up the FSA but didn't bother to check whether they were doing a proper job? GB. So Northern Rock was allowed to be "rescued" with whose money? Not his.. tax-payers. Were we consulted? Not.
Unemployment at 1.6million.
Balance of trade the worst ever.
More pensioners below the poverty line.
EU investigation into why the UK's finances are in such a mess.
Money majiced out of thin air to try and offset the disaster of doubling the tax on the lowest paid.
"All hail the Blessed Leader".
Yes. And I'm sure your children - if you have some - will be pleased to pay for his "investments".
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My Comment at number 79 has not been allowed to be displayed due to freespeech being not allow on this blog.
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81:
Caroline Spelman to you hasn't been convicted of any offence as it stands right now. Are you familiar with the laws of libel?
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Quietzapple wrote:
,HMG has a superb economic record,,
Now this where in my opinion you and reality part company.
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Why is my comment (number 2) still not reviewed?! Are we not allowed to be too openly critical of BBC journalism?
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Although George Lansbury lost the by-election, he did go on to become leader of the Labour Party ...
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Although George Lansbury lost the by-election, he did go on to become leader of the Labour Party . . . . .
. . . . . who were out of power for 30 years after his gesture.
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What David Davis has done is definitely brave. Yes, he will have made a calculation (all politicians do) but he will have felt that the 'principle' is worth the risk.
Many on this blog have said that the gamble is not risky at all and they also say that the local electorate within his constituency will be subject to an unnecessary byelection. Surely if the electorate think it unnecessary and that their time is being wasted then they will bomb him out. Is that not risky for DD?
Also if the 70% poll support figure is true (for 42 days) then he should fully expect to lose on that point too. Or could it be that the poll figure was stretching the truth a bit.
Others argue on the hypocrisy of not making a stand on 14 or 28 days. This can easily be explained. Perhaps he thought that 28 days was plenty enough, much like most of the rest of the commons did at the time. Or maybe he thought that there wouldnt be anything to stop it being increased again in the future to 60, 90 or even 365 days.
Labour will have to field a candidate for the byelection imho. If they dont then Davis will get a lot of good publicity which I dont think GB can afford. Labour will look cowardly and weak if they dont. DD will be fighting on a single issue platform and not fielding a candidate could suggest that Labour aren't prepared to argue the case for 42 days.
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I'm rather impressed with David Davis, less so with the media at the moment.
The tone of the debate on internment without charge, and indeed the tone of the debates about ID cards, the expansion of the DNA database to include non-criminals and other related issues has been unbelievably facile.
It's generally presented as "these measures are to stop terrorists, if you don't agree with them you must love terrorists" which is to oversimplify things to put it mildly.
I suspect that the recent polls cited about the 42 days detention show broad support that is very shallow. People see "terrorist" and automatically condemn, missing out the rather crucial "suspected" part. When it's pointed out that it could be entirely innocent people, including possibly YOU getting the sharp end of the stick people tend to think about it in a bit more of a nuanced fashion.
I do hope that the press and the BBC in particular actually engage properly with the issues and don't merely treat this as some kind of pantomime.
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What evidence does Nick Robinson (and others) have that "the electors do not like unneccessary
byelections"? Perhaps "the electors", outside the Westminster media village, have had enough of the relentless encroachment of New Labour's 1984 Big Brother and perhaps "the electors" are even more worried about this that about terrorism.
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11:53 pm on 12 Jun 2008, urban_guerilla
No Labour candidate, no debate.
Best imho is to run a normal campaign with a good local candidate, and fight on issues where the tories are pathetic eg economy.
Any good socialist candidate will make points against the Government too, tykes are like that.
Davies' rep as a man of principle will be overtaken as an opportunist who is taking advantage if the Labour candidate handles it right.
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I always thought the unwritten rule was that once an issue has been voted on the Government won't bring it back before a vote until after the next General Election?
Quite frankly it is the motives of the Labour Party I find most sinister - I still remember the newspaper headlines after 7/7 with the Government claiming that the victims had given their support to the then counter-terror proposals, only for the Government to be discovered as liars, and that not one of the victims had even been asked, and the majority were against.
And I believe that Public support for this issue largly depends upon the question asked:
"Do you support an innocent man being locked in a room for 42 days without having commited a single crime? His name being dragged through the mud, his family shamed, the loss of his job and friend?"
OR
"Do you support terrorists being locked up for 42 days for your protection?"
Spinning with the safety of the British public is a disgusting indication of this Labour Governments contempt for both voters and the duty with which they have been entrusted.
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It's just a period of detention where a suspect can be held while evidence is gathered. Given the increased difficulties involved with a serious outrage it looks fair enough. It's proportionate and humane under the circumstances.
The other thing people keep missing is the support the government has given to respectable muslim scholars and communities. This is important in helping people live good lives and feel welcomed. None of the critics ever mention that.
In that respect, the critics of 42 days look alarmist and out of touch. Their own fear and ignorance has just run away with itself. If they calmed down instead of acting like nutters the law would probably be better crafted and people would be happier.
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Nick, I am still gravely disappointed in you. You're still portraying this as a partisan split between the two leading lights of the Tory party. What will it take for you to see it as what it is, a principled man taking a stand for what he believes is right?
I would bet a pound to a penny that David Cameron wasn't asked or consulted about this for one reason only. It's nothing to do with him. This is a matter beyond party politics. It's about the basic freedoms we hold dear as a nation. Davis isn't doing this to score points against Cameron, or to raise his profile in the Conservative Party, or to "get back" at the leader of his party for any reason at all.
He's doing this because he honestly believes that this is important, and I am appalled at the negative light you have portrayed this courageous stance in, all the way down to suggesting this is a "late-life crisis". If nothing else, a man still in his 50s hardly counts as being in "late life". I expected better from you.
P.S. And all this on the same day that the US detainees at Guantanamo Bay have had their right to habeas corpus reaffirmed by the Supreme Court. Today truly is the day where freedom takes a stand.
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Nick, I am getting tired of your own personal views and suppositions colouring your news reports, and today is as bad an example as any I've seen yet. When I watch the news, I want to hear facts reported, not what you think David Cameron might have been thinking, or that you think this signals a split in the Tory ranks, which frankly going by every other interview and report I've seen today, it simply doesn't. If you want to spout your opinions more and more, do it here by all means, or ask for your own chat show, but stop doing it in the middle of what are supposed to be (and look like) factual news reports. Your slot on the BBC news this evening was just a recital of this piece.
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11:56 pm on 12 Jun 2008, belmorama
It is a sort of panto, Davies is acting out his fantasies, dreaming of becoming PM.
This doesn't even have the seriousness of being political theatre, it is loud, solo mime. He will be demonstrating how to pretend a pane of glass is where it isn't as it were. No one will watch much . . .
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11:59 pm on 12 Jun 2008, formertorymp
Nick R is correct, they do not.
I stood in a local one, and won in a tory area against a tory, largely because the election was caused by the tory's resignation.
Once they have spoken the rep is supposed to get on with it, take the knocks etc.
Davies hasn't done that.
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No other civilised democracy gives the state such powers of detention without charge.
If David Davis takes the view that by forcing a by-election he is drawing attention to this scandal, then good luck to him.
But the person who really should be going to the polls is Gordon Brown.
Nearly 800 years after Magna Carta, 'habius corpus' is effectively repealed by New Labour. Perhaps they think that's progress.
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#93 quietzapple
quote 'Best imho is to run a normal campaign with a good local candidate, and fight on issues where the tories are pathetic eg economy.' unquote
It would be a good idea for a start - you cant get any worse than the labour candidate in crewe and nantwich! Hopefully, no focus on toffs and posh schooling then - would be an own goal I suppose with DD having good working class roots.
As for the ecomony, dream on - pl dont get me started on that - I find your view either very delusional or you earn in excess of £100k pa. I earn a good wage, but have seen my mortgage payments go up 25%, petrol 30%, food 20% this year and to cover all that I can look forward to a poxy 2% pay rise if I'm lucky because I work for central government.
PS by the way I'm not a tory just a realist looking for a voice - in recent years I've voted for all 3 main parties and the greens
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Nick.
I'm mystified by your assertion that "the electors do not like unnecessary by-elections". Oh yes they do!
Most people I know are just itching for the chance to vote the worst government in history OUT of office. Last month's London Mayor and the Crewe election results put a big grin and a spring in the step of this downtrodden, fleeced, ignored and spied-upon nation.
I can't wait to see democracy in action again, if Labour has the bottle for another pounding... and (shock/horror) fields a candidate. What's not to like?
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This bit of the website is a blog - a place where Nick is entitled to be a little less careful in his comments. In fact I was rather disappointed when I realised that the blog was just his comments to camera on the evening news. (Or vice versa)
The impression I'm getting is that what the journos and some fellow politicians would like to say is that Davis is a very vain man with an inflated view of his own importance, and all those who know him personally are factoring that into their reactions and comments.
So, while I think that Davis is saying the right things about this bill, and the extension of the police state in the country, I'm rather dubious about his motives for saying them.
I suspect that Nick agrees with this point of view, but can't come out and say so on a BBC website. Perhaps, Nick, you could find someone to quote - if you can get them to put it into printable language - that would be one way round.
I'd like to see you letting your hair down a little on the blog - how about it?
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Gees, get a grip, Nick. There's more to politics than Tory vs Labour. Aren't you bored of looking at everything through the partisan prism?
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I think the main mistake David Davis has made is in overestimating the intelligence of the British public, politicians and media.
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David Davis should be congratulated over his stance regarding Labour's 42 day detention. He is defending our freedoms that have sustained our country for centuries.This is the only way to openly challange and keep this topic discussed vigorously in the public media. Perhaps then the public will realise how much of our freedoms are being sacrificed by this disfunctional government.
Labour will reluctantly be forced to field a candidate against him so as to defend their weak position and defend their PM Brown. Labour may have won (or bought) the vote, but they certainly lost the argument.
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103 pvsutton
Yes, it is very dissapointing that the blog header by NR is simply his piece for the news. Often the case.
However, NR hardly ever says anything more than a couple of hundred words. He is the equivalent of the leader writer in the newspapers and we have to look elsewhere for balanced in-depth analysis.
You could look at this as lazy journalism by a celebrity reporter.
I might think so but I couldn't possibly comment
PS Who is this man Davies people keep commenting on, I think his name is Davis.
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On a serious note, I think it is important that initially we separatae David Davis from the important question of civil liberties.
Three questions put this into perspective
The first question is
DOES ANYONE HERE BELIEVE THAT OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES HAVE NOT BEEN ERODED OVER THE LAST 11 YEARS?
The second question is
If you believe they have been eroded, do you care?
And the third question is
If you care what are you going to do about it?
Now look at David Davis. Here is a man who believes that our civil liberties have been eroded and that the parliamentary forum is not providing an adequate platform for full and frank discussion. He has decided to resign to get the debate started.
Once the ball starts rolling this could become a very powerful discussion with the media taking a full part, and David Davis, like Winston Churchill after his years in the wilderness, may well be seen as a hero.
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Please excuse me rabbiting on. I'm doing this while getting the washing done on Economy 7 because of the high cost of electricty and making breakfast.
As an extension to my previous post, I think it would be useful to forget the 42 day legislation as this is just a red-herring.
I hope that the media will, in the next four weeks, produce a programme on erosion of our civil liberties for prime time TV based on
1 What happenned pre-1997
2 What had happened in the period 1997 - 2008
3 With the developments in technology may (and probably will) happen in the future.
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#107, #103
Whoa, give the guy a break. He's got a few other things on his plate as well!
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Anyone would think the right to be innocent until proved guilty were under attack. That would indeed be an erosion of our liberties. Read the Magna Carta and you will find the rights granted in it appertain to the landed, literate and free in a feudal system in which the crown previously had arbitrary rights over everyone.
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Helpl me. Why should any of us 'the people' care if this action is good or bad for the political parties ? Surely our liberties are above and beyond the disciplines of party loyalty, and in outr hands to control not the state. As Mr. Davies says they are being frittered away. Indeed, frittered away in the name of an Orwellian notion of a 'war' that seems to reside only in the minds of extremists and our elected representatives. Here is a politician to whom (am I actually saying this?) I'd be willing to donate. I heard David Blunkett on the radio last night telling me that there already was a national debate.....how out of touch can you get ? The liberties debate is not making headlines - it is the legislative debate (how hard can we appear) that is in the news. Thank you to Mr. Davies for redressing the balance a little, and shame on our politcial class for THEIR egosim on the subject of our liberties.
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112 edmonston
I think you are correct. The media are only interested in personalities and not the issues.
Of playing one party off against the other.
Coverage is all about David Davis and the real issues are pushed to one side.
I would be interested to know what erosion of liberties others believe have happened over the last 11 years.
For me, the person arrested near parliament under the Terrorism Act for reading out a list of names of our servicemen that died in Iraq was abhorrent.
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When Nick Robinson first suggested he couldn't think of a similar case to Davies', I didn't think of Lansbury re Votes for Women, or the Ulster iunionists - all of who resigned their seats.
I thought of Lord Randolph Churchill who resigned to try and get his way, was replaced without ado, and mumbled in the background for the rest of his days.
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This is just your script from the news - don't treat us like idiots. If you've got nothing new to say don't. There's real dissatisfaction with your reporting on here - do you actually read the commentd at all? Is this in fact really a blog at all?
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Suppose this happens: No major party stands against him. The BNP field a candidate who campaigns for a 42 day limit and gets elected. Improbable or impossible? Who knows?
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07:52 am on 13 Jun 2008, mikepko
Your faith in the media is touching.
Who do you suppose owns and controls most of it?
Have you noticed that the print media are usually allowed to set the "debate," they get quoted at the beginnings of the news progs on TV don't they.
If a programme of the kind you suggested was made we my be pretty sure that it would just be an attack on HMG, because that is what the media does.
And since the Second Iraq War the BBC has ben fairly solidly anti HMG too, they lost Gilligan and their pride in their competence, didn't they?
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Davies' stance is to be applauded, Labour is trying to do away with a fundamental aspect of justice, and the media seems to be supporting them.
Let's get a bit of balance here, and stop castigating Davies as a loser. In my view, the real losers are the MPs who sold justice up the river for a handful of shiny pennies.
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99 quietzapple
I'm very interested to know that you won an election against a Tory in a Tory area.
Was it class captain by any chance?
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I really admire David Davies for what he is doing - despite all the rubbishing he's getting by the media - civil liberties is a very important issue.
It's about time that a politician took a principled stand. If his party really gets behind him the Tories will have gone up in my estimation.
Good luck to you David
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If 10% of the comments on a debate are "removed for review". Is this called an open debate?
Will the british people have an open debate on this in the media?
Do I have to resign to have my comments published?
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From some politicians I could believe that this is a principled stand by a man of integrity. I just have a problem believing that of David Davis. Have those who have swallowed this line not been following this man's craven ambition, doubtful loyalty, opportunism, arrogant demeanour and mistreatment of those around him for at least a decade? Wake up, guys...
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Nick, after (I trust) a good night's sleep, have you been able to remove yourself from the Westminster Village bubble and assess the attitude of us 'civilians' (i.e. non politicos, journos, think-tank policy wonks, etc.) to David Davis's move?
If you have, I think you'll have to agree that his principled stand has struck a very popular chord with the public who - regardless of their opinion on '42 days' - are sick of their civil liberties and personal freedoms being systematically eroded by this increasingly authoritarian government.
this issue is now in the spotlight and - thanks to David Davis - will not go away anytime soon.
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I imagine whatever else one may think of what he has done, one has appreciate that some people do have principles that compel them to put their livelihood on the line. By way of comparison, I generally have not lot in common with Diane Abbot, however her case against the 42-day extension Bill, in definance of her own Government, was compelling.
At least Davis can say that - save for one or maybe two others - the Tory party was united on this issue, so it's not a "split" of the party, simply the divergence of a view on how best to represent a matter of principle.
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Quietzapple
For ease of looking back, could you do me a favour and add the post number when you quote someone? It just makes searching back a little quicker!
thank you kindly sir ;o)
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I was hoping to find somewhere to post comment after seeing your report on the six o'clock news last night.
I am suprised that a supposedly neutral report should suggest this is the best news Gordon Brown has had in weeks - if you had your finger on the pulse (just try the BBC's own "have your say") of popular opinion you would realise a great majority are behind David Davis on this, applauding a rare display of moral values from a politician and happy someone is finally standing up for the erosion or our liberties that so many have given their lives for in this country.
As for Cameron's reaction, you are merely speculating. You may be in a better position than most to speculate, but the fact remains the same.
You report the news, Nick, not make the news.
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This is a matter of principle for David Davis and three cheers for democracy.
The arrival of the DUP to support a party is generally the death knell of said party - witness the support of the DUP for the Major and Callaghan governments.
To extend the argument beyond 42 day detention to the continual erosion of civil liberties under the prying NewLabour state is a masterstroke. People have had enough of being snooped upon.
It says a great deal for our democracy that David Davis feels he can do this and wants to do it in this age of career politicians climbing up the greasy pole.
If only some NewLabour MPs had felt as principled at the time of the non leadership election a year ago then maybe NewLabour would have a leader with a proper mandate.
Instead we have an unelected leader who won a debate with the support of the DUP and who knows what promises made?
The Tory party has a long, proud history of challenging conventional wisdom and supporting just causes.
We hear a lot on these blogs about the class 'struggle' but these arguments never seem to include Mrs Thatcher - herself a grocer's daughter, or Ted Heath, a builder's son. So it seems to me that all the real deabte is going on in the Tory party and not the intellectually aloof NewLabour party.
Strike out for democracy, David Davis. The argument has not even been aired for 42 day detention never mind made. Where is the evidence?
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'The government is obsessed with controlling us, they find it easier to meddle with peoples lives than to do anything positive for the country.'
To say this ignores the very real improvements you can see everywhere in schools, hospitals, GP surgeries and the general road and rail infrastructure.
I'm no great supporter of this Government, and believe they got it entirely wrong with the war in Iraq (as well as fees for university students), but we should give them some credit where its due. This country has been transformed in a positive way in the last 10 years - unlike during the term of the Thatcher Government, when only the well off and the yuppies saw any improvement.
Having said that - they've got it hideously wrong about the 42 days as well, and I hope this misguided attack on our civil liberties never makes it to the statute books.
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Surely we are seeing the death knell of party politics. I think that all MPs ought to stand as independents, let's vote for the person and not the party.
There must be a parliament based on free votes.
I have never been able to vote for Gordon Brown, I know this is not British but we must have an elected President, serving for a maximum of two four year terms.
We have a de facto President anyway so we might as well go the whole hog.
The role of Parliament is to monitor the executive. We are effectively a dictatorship with an unelected PM who took over as a result of a coup, and who sees every defeat as personal. This is a disgrace.
We have been taken to a war in Iraq, we are fighting and dying in Afghanistan and for what, 'democracy and freedom'.
David Davis is right. When Gordon Brown tells us that this is a stunt he just doesn't get it.
I have personal experience of how this government silences people, they must not be allowed to get away with it. Good luck David.
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#123 Brussel Ben - As Charles once said: some people tend to paint other people in the way they view themselves. This says more about the critic than the subject of their criticism.
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For Gordon Brown to call it 'a stunt that has become a farce' reminds me more of the 10p tax fiasco.
If he had done the same when Blair resigned, he would be more respected by the voters than he is.
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35. At 8:13 pm on 12 Jun 2008, davybush wrote:
Lets get this straight, if Clegg had decided to run against Davies, Davies wouldn't have run and not been so 'courageous', because he might have lost his seat.
Are you kdding me? Nick Clegg is rather more shallow than Davies. But Clegg wouldn't stand as if he lost, the Lib Dems would be in even more dire straits than they are.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I think he's doing two things:
He is taking a public and memorable position on the Right for two reasons:
1) He will have more authority outside the tent of the Shadow Cabinet and Cabinet than he will have in it and will be the de facto leader of the powerful Tory right i.e. capable of setting a Tory government agenda if they are elected.
2) He is gambling that the economy is going to tank in a huge way and there will be David Davis, man of principle and patriot, who can lead Britain back to its true values and sense of itself.
I think he's got it right. Centre politics is going to be dead in this country in five years.
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Why has my post #126 not been allowed through?
All I did was ask Quietzapple to add the post number when he's quoting someone, as it makes finding the original comment a little easier....
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nick,
I think you, your colleagues and the Labour party are out of step with us "plebs" on this.
You keep painting it as a mid-life crisis. I see it as one man speaking loudly all my frustrations. Listening to radio 4 today, Kelvin Mckenzie (standing for the Sun) can't see any issues with my civil liberties. in fact, he's happy that his fear of travelling on the tube means anything this Government does is OK by him.
I am looking at this Governments records and see a horrendous drift -
RIPA - believe this was first touted to fight terrorism. Now used by every council in the land.
MP's attempt to exclude themselves from the Freedom of Information act last year.
SOCPA - I can't even protest with the Government giving approval.
28 days detention now being moved to 42 - the first drift on this. How long before brown wants 90 days "because of problems with technology".
Coming soon:
Compulsory ID cards - everyone admits it won't help in fight on Terrorism so it is solely an attack on the law abiding common man.
DNA database - innocent peoples DNA samples currently stored.
Nick, you seem so stuck on machinations and arguments that you are beginning to sound like Harriet Harman.
If you don't like us Plebs comments at least talk to the Labour rebels - how about Diane Abbot ? What does she think ? Please stop reporting the Labour Government line solely and balance it out a little with our views.
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Thanks for the psychoanalysis, Terry No 2 (post 131), though I can't see how it moves the debate on. My point may have been personal, but the stand taken by Davis is nothing if not that.
By the way, for those who think fundamental freedoms are at stake here (Magana Carta etc) and that the UK is becoming the most illiberal state in the western world, can I quote from the BBC site on the suspects still being held in Italy over the Meredith Kercher murder:
"All three suspects deny involvement in the student's death and have not been charged. "
This in April 2008. The murder was in November 2007. I'm not saying the issue isn't important but it's a lot more complex than the headline politics would have you believe.
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Quietzapple wrote of mikepko:
"You are a carper and whinger with little talent even for those dubious arts."
I don't think this kind of personal abuse should be allowed on here - it obviously breaks your main guidelines as 'likely to offend'.
I was attacked on here a few weeks ago and this is the first time I've returned.
Isn't this supposed to be about our political views? Why can't some people accept different views to their own without resorting to insults?
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This blog has become fact light and too partisan. I take issue against the Tory crowd that waded in from nowhere but have also done my best to persuade Labour sympathisers to get a grip. I think, Nick is getting sucked in by headline chasing and moderation has failed. That's my position and unless anything changes today is the last day I'll be posting for the foreseeable future.
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#140 bryanjames
well said! on the one hand it is good to see people are passionate about issues, but I find it a tad sad when emotion spills over and insults are traded - it does detract from the argument to my mind.
dont be afraid to make your views known - a lot of people out there will agree with you!
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134 QA
Ouch, or was that meeow?
In my experience local government councillors are worse than MPs, and that is saying something!!!
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42 days is a fair thing to protest about but why not 28?
I believe some people are living in the realms of fantasy about this civil liberties thing. It appears to be based on technophobia. a bit odd from people typing negative comments about the government. Using an email that can be traced. Internet spyware, and search engines snoop on us on the internet all the time,
Do they use mobile phones. Every now and again a mobile sends out a signal to find phone masts in the area. This can be used to track someone.
As for the Conservative party the party that says its THE party of Law and order being against CCTV cameras I find that very difficult to believe. Although they would probably like to imply being against speed cameras. I dont think they are though.
Is David Davis demanding that this technology should be uninvented?
A stunt from the ludites champion, and a possible leadership challenge?
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I have had a response from an MEP regarding the 42 days.
It is very interesting but as it was a personal communication, I will not be divulging any details, except to say that the MEP's personal position was that he disagreed with the 42 day rule but did not think that the EU should frame any laws which imposed on member countries!
I frankly cannot see much point in an EU that does not frame certain laws which protect all EU citizens, such as the right to know that where ever the citizen is in Europe, that they cannot be detained without charge for more than a certain duration.
Why should we Europeans be less democratic than the Americans in this respect?
Can anybody answer that?
It does raise yet again the fundamental issue of whether an elected representative tries to reflect to will of his electorate or whether he considers that he was elected to decide for himself what is 'best' for his electorate.
My view is that the elected representative, should at all times, try to act as an accurate sounding-board for his electorate.
Modern technology does make this approach much more feasible than was the case in the past.
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In a democratic vote I thought you went with the majority decision even if it goes against you. Thats how parliment was supposed to work. If David Davis doesn't agree with that why try to get elected again unless he has secret agenda.
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# 125 terry no 2. You must be pretty niave if you think David Davis has put anything on the line never mind his livelyhood. he resigned on a principle so he says and in the same breath says Oh! by the way put my name down as a Tory candidate in order to get back into the same parliament that has just voted for the reason that he resigned, so he gets back sits on the back bench, as there is no way that Dominic Grieve is going to surrender his job for him
as big a friend as Davis thinks he is supposed to be.David Davis is no mug as we have seen over the years I think Davis's move is as baldrick would say "I have a cunning plan"
As for Diane Abbot she should have no place in the Labour party with her views she should stand as an independant not keep cosy under the mantle of the Labour party.
Finally how do you know how split the Tories are, have'nt you learnt that when socialists fall out its all in the open. when Tories fall out no matter how big the dispute they close ranks. The man who has most to fear in this fiasco is David Cameron. this action and the speed it was carried out shows that he has no control over his shadow cabinet who are all waiting for him to fall so that they can become number 5 or is it 6.
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@mikepko (#108)
DOES ANYONE HERE BELIEVE THAT OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES HAVE NOT BEEN ERODED OVER THE LAST 11 YEARS?
Kelvin MacKenzie, apparently.
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I agree with that and have torn down one of my local councillours in the middle of the street for that. It must have had some effect because my city council started behaving itself not long afterwards.
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It comes as a bit of a shock to me to find myself defending a Tory politician for sticking to their principles in an important vote - but fair's fair! Well done,Anne Widdecombe. The lass done well...
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11:51 am on 13 Jun 2008, mikepko
Sounds like your experience is rather limited.
You might extend it by doing some voluntary service yourself as Councillors do, or do you despise all elements of our democratic, plural civil society?
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136. At 10:29 am on 13 Jun 2008, s_slatt
Ok, but please quote id etc as per above, thanks.
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#147. So you think that when Socialists fall out it's all in the open and the Tories only do it in private! What nonsense! You'd better have a word with John Major about that - I think he may have a different view. While you're about it why not question Iain Duncan Smith. Or even Thatcher. It was hardly the case that criticisms of all of those people were kept under the carpet.
Now turn to the recent biographies of new Labour people. There we are told that, in turns out, it wasn't all sweetness between Blair and Gordon, in spite of their respective spokespeople telling us - until they were blue in the face - that they were best buddies. But now we know better.
So Diane Abbot doesn't belong in the Labour Party? What about the other 30-odd who also voted against the 42-day extension? On the other hand, it might be a good idea for them all to resign. Join the Liberals or something. I wonder how long the Government would last after that? Any views?
By the way, I think I should add that the problem with the right in the Labour Party is that they are bankrupt of ideas. Only the left occupy this slot.
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Surely as a political commentator you will not have forgotten Dick Taverne in 1973. Another example and this one like the Ulster Unionists in living memory.
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The road to hell is truly paved with good intentions.
I believe that David Davis has begun to walk down the path to temporary political oblivion.
Pity really because Parliament could do with a lot more genuinely independent people.
It is just that at present the political set up is not configured to accommodate them.
In the post-Scottish independence era around 2010/11, the English will finally have an opportunity to create an English political system which is much more in the English image.
Then people like Davis will find that they have a place again.
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#134 So QA is a politican. perhaps that explains why their views are so out of line with the general public's.
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Moderators, my (first ever) blog post at #97 was subsequently (I presume) complained about by someone, although I can't imagine why - can you please deal with it and either publish it again or delete it finally so I can then receive the email ticking off I apparently deserve and find out exactly which house rule I have allegedly violated?
Thankyou.
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147 wrote:
Finally how do you know how split the Tories are, have'nt you learnt that when socialists fall out its all in the open. when Tories fall out no matter how big the dispute they close ranks. The man who has most to fear in this fiasco is David Cameron. this action and the speed it was carried out shows that he has no control over his shadow cabinet who are all waiting for him to fall so that they can become number 5 or is it 6.
How can the perhaps well intentioned but rather silly action of one man lead you to believe that DC has lost control of his entire shadow cabinet? Wishful thinking on your part I feel.
Take out the word shadow from your comment and you have an accurate description of The Labour Front Bench. If The Opposition's turmoil is all behind closed doors as you say how come you, the proverbial 'fly on the wall' have inside knowledge of their reactions?
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Why is Davis *really* courageous? Because he's going up against the next government's real opposition - the populist media.
Not just the Daily Mail and the Sun, who both appear to strongly support locking up anyone suspicious and foreign for as long as possible, but much of the rest of the media - Robinson included - who shout about splits, fights, arguments and division amongst political parties at any opportunity, then decry the faceless mass block voting. Forget in-depth analysis, if you can stand at the sidelines shouting "fight, fight!" like a schoolboy at a brawl, it's just easy and exciting.
Well, now you'll be forced to discuss all the issues, as it'll be a news story for days - you'll run out of easy slogans, and have to fill the inches and seconds with real facts and analysis. Hopefully, that'll even spark rational debate for once, rather than the kneejerk slogans that the average newspaper serves up for its factional supporters. Whether the Sun, the Mail, the Telegraph or the Guardian - this is a long term story now. It's your chance to be real journalists for once. Don't blow it.
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I suspect many a supporter of this new law views it as an infrigement of their civil liberties in the same way the old "sus" law did - it didn't apply to them, as they weren't the wrong colour.
Yet nothing worked better as a recruitment policy for the IRA than internment (indefinite detention without trial - brought in by Ted Heath's Tories). If you want to create more terrorist sleeper cells claiming to be fighting in the name of their religion, this is a great way to go about it.
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153 terry 2 , I would be delighted if Diane Abbot and many of the other rebels were to form there own party not necessarily the ones that voted against 42 days but quite a lot of the old guard they could call it old Labour and they would be free to vote any way they want . I wonder how long they would last. Tories stick together thats why only one or two voted with the government although a hell of a lot more believed in the 42 days whereas 30 socialists voted against the government speaks for itself does'nt it.
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Given that Labour are way behind in the polls anyway, and public opinion is thought to back the 42 day law, is there a chance Brown will take on Davis and gamble on winning a by-election on a single issue? This would then further put pressure on the Tories and possibly turn the opinion polls round on a national level. If Labour do not contest it, I think Cameron will relegate Davis tot he back benches and then get on with batterng Brown...
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6:31 pm on 13 Jun 2008, whatbill
Why invest when you are gaining already?
The MacKenzie candidacy will bring davis down to size, and the Tories have already diminished themselves, not least Cameron D who couldn't hold his loose cannon in check.
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Horrible to agree with Kelvin MacKenzie, but our democratic liberties are not being eroded and etc.
As he points out we have nothing to fear from all these new security measures - ID cards, up to 42 day detentions (subject to all sorts of checks by Parliament and the judiciary) for suspected terrorists in the most complex cases, CCTV cameras (many of them privately owned by shops and malls etc).
Likewise the new measures which permit the Inland Revenue to search premises in certain circumstances should only worry tax fiddlers, I have read bitter complaints forma market trader re this, I wonder why?
And if you don't speed, don't park illegally you steer clear of run ins with the authorities and their essential surveillance too, don't you?
My Liberties remain unchallenged by HMG and our society generally.
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It's amazing to me that British indifference to liberty can have gone so far that the most frequently rehearsed argument for 42 day is of the "If you haven't done anything wrong you have nothing to fear"-type.
The principle which is being assaulted here by Mr Brown is one of equal treatment before the processes of law. The most recent period of the slow erosion of our liberties began with Thatcher (limits on public assembly etc.) but the Labour Party seems to have decided that siding with Daily Mail sentiments is more important that the protection and extension of liberty.
Who will defend us from this absolutist barbarian government? Evidently it is not Mr Cameron...
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Moderators. I posted a comment on this blog, Number 137, around noon yesterday. I would be grateful if you would please either publish it or send me an email telling me why you cant. It was critical, but that cannot be a reason. Thank you.
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David Davis's constituents voted him in after a campaign funded by his party. He held the position of shadow home secretary. By resigning, he lets down the people who elected him to represent them and the party which honoured him with the position.
As this bill has a long way to go before it gets on the statute books I find his timing hard to understand. Surely he should have warned his party leader he might do this in the event of a Government majority in favour of the bill? And as the bill has only passed its first stage, he is no longer in a good position to argue against it if the Lords send it back to the Commons modified or even rejected. My point is, that if he had not resigned, he would be in a better position to fight for the rights of his constituents both now and in the future.
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I think it is a waste of public money but that will go down with the rest of the money they waste have we had is expences yet that may make a difference to is relection
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"David Davis has massive public support for his shock move to force a by-election over the Government?s decision to detain terror suspects for up to 42 days without charge.
And he is set to win a historic and decisive victory in his Haltemprice and Howden seat, near Hull ? as the first opinion poll carried out in the constituency proves.
The ICM survey for The Mail on Sunday shows overwhelming backing for former Shadow Home Secretary Mr Davis.
Despite his shock decision to resign, David Davis has massive support in his constituency of Haltemprice and Howden, near Hull
It reveals that he would easily beat former Sun Editor Kelvin MacKenzie ? who has said he plans to contest the seat on a ?pro-42 day? ticket ? by 67 per cent to 14.
And significantly, it shows there is widespread support in the constituency for Mr Davis?s claim that the Government has turned into a ?Big Brother? state ? while violent criminals go scot-free.
Following sharp criticism of Mr Davis from Labour and Tory enemies alike, the former SAS reservist received a series of boosts as:
* Sun owner Rupert Murdoch disowned Mr MacKenzie?s campaign after he insulted ?shocking? Hull.
* The chairman of the pressure group Liberty, Shami Chakrabarti, praised Mr Davis ? and is to help a ?Celebrities for Davis? operation.
* Labour rebel Bob Marshall-Andrews and other Left-wing MPs will support Mr Davis in the election.
Mr Davis?s decision to resign his seat stunned friend and foe.
Most of his closest political friends and allies were kept in the dark about it and have described it as ?madness? and ?a rush of blood to the head?.
A source very close to David Cameron, who defeated Mr Davis in the Tory leadership contest three years ago, called the maverick MP ?selfish and arrogant?.
But the ICM survey shows that Mr Davis has strong support from his constituency.
Labour is expected to refuse to field a candidate against Mr Davis ? and the survey shows why.
In a straight fight between Mr Davis and Labour, Labour scores a mere 11 per cent ? three fewer than Mr MacKenzie in a similar head-to-head contest with Mr Davis.
Labour would also be thrashed in the seat if a General Election was held now."
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169. At 1:09 pm on 15 Jun 2008, parkavenue301
Well you were wrong at the start so I expect you maintained that record.
Davis is supposedly standing on the erosion of Liberty, not quite so stupid as to limit his foolish allegations to the 42 days.
When Kelvin McKenzie gets the airtime Davis does - and he better had - he will make up quite a lot headway, though Davis is always going to obtain the sympathy simple minded yorkshiremen are afforded in Yorkshire.
As I remarked elsewhere the first rule in Yorkshire politics is to be born there.
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It always helps to add 'in your opinion' when commenting about the views of others. We will see over the next few weeks whether or not you are in fact right or wrong in your views.
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If David Davis is unopposed in a by election then perhaps his most sensible move would be to withdraw his resignation.
If he sticks with forcing a by election on a single issue ? the championship of those detained and not charged ? then he might emulate George Galloway and fight the by election under a new name. "Suspect party" would be appropriate.
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David Davis---resigned because he thought the country (united kingdom) was doing some policies wrong....
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157. At 5:22 pm on 13 Jun 2008, David P wrote:
I HAVE ALREADY RECEIVED COUPLE OF THOSE EMAILS--TELLING ME THAT I HAVE VIOLATED HOUSE RULES...
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Moderators. I submitted a post no.137 regarding David Davis, which was to be subject of moderation last Friday before lunch and which is STILL under moderation. I sent a further post no.166 on the 14th asking you to either publish my post no.137, or withdraw it and send me the email (as per House Rules etc) explaining why you have withdrawn it. I have STILL not received any email. Please could you deal with this and either publish or withdraw and email. I think I might be excused for thinking that the delay is that there was no House Rule as such broken, but it was too critical of your Mr Robinson for you to publish it.
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