Cameron Direct
HARLOW, ESSEX: It was billed as "the new politics". The Conservative leader would be live, unscripted and unprotected from the tough questions that would be posed by all-comers at a genuinely open meeting. The Tories claimed that their leader would be doing something that Gordon Brown would never dare to do. They believed they were genuinely taking a risk. David Cameron even joked with his shadow cabinet before the meeting that he was ready to dodge eggs thrown by protesters.
The reality last night was very very different. An audience which was largely elderly, largely Conservative-supporting and largely posed sympathetic questions produced a meeting that felt anything but new.
It was not that the Conservatives had rigged this event. Indeed, they'd gone out of their way to make sure they hadn't and insisted that tickets had been given to the first 200 of 600 people who applied for them after posters have been put in the town and adverts in the local newspaper. There were certainly some non-Tories there able apparently to put any questions they wanted.
The problem was rather different. Local Conservatives heard the news that David Cameron was visiting their town first and were so desperate to see their successful new leader that they applied for the first come first served tickets and few independents made it into the meeting.
Is there, though, another problem revealed by what's being dubbed Cameron Direct (due to come to a town near you soon)? Are they soaring in the polls because they're not Labour but they lack the definition required to produce many direct questions for Cameron to answer directly?
PS. Before a member of the Harlow audience writes to point this out, let me admit that I was rather late for the meeting having got lost on the way there! My account, therefore, rests in part on the account of my producer and cameraman who did make it on time!
I'm 
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Let me get this right.... you missed a lot of the meeting, you didnt hear half the questions, you write a blog based largely on hearsay (for that's what it is), you have no idea exactly how many of the audience were Conservative members.. and you can write 500 words on this. ..
Is there any reason why you could not have written a straight blog that DC was trying to reach out to voters?? he does have to consider his own supporters, not just the other parties.
Nice of you to suggest that people of what ever party aren't clever enough to ask searching questions.
Must be a slow day.
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Some may recall the NL were going to do something like this when in Government.
So we eagerly waited for Tony and Gordon to visit our village hall.
Of course, it never happened because once in Government, they soon found that it was most prudent to avoid direct contact with the public as much as possible.
The same thing also happened in the electronic sense too.
That is, the NL Government allocated a part of the No. 10 website, called 'Speakers Corner' to be a public forum.
The almost unremitting barrage of negative posts on there soon caused them to scrap it.
Real democracy can be quite messy.
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Why has it not been noted that this is a carbon copy of the idea that Nick Clegg put forward and has carried out?
In his acceptance speech in December he said he would go around the country and hold town hall meetings. This he has done, even in areas where Lib Dems are not traditionally strong.
The difference here, of course, is that Clegg-Lite (known as David Cameron) is holding them in marginal seats.
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The world's full of preachers with their well honed routines. Zen Buddhism is almost unique in having no formal leadership. Indeed,what's especially irritating about Cameron's performance is that he's got the glossy patter, laid back approach, hale fellow well met routine and a monopoly on the stage.
People like to see the boxes ticked and be left with a feel-good factor. They're carry it around for a few days as all their prejudices and affiliations are confirmed but what's changed? The time served political habitual can't change unless they get off their lazy duffs and try to overcome their issues by action and meeting people.
My hope is that Gordon Brown doesn't just match this with a superstar keynote but digs deep into Labour's middle-brain, and helps people in business and the community develop their inner Buddha. And by that, I mean, he helps people see the opportunity within them not just inhale second hand political smoke blowing out of the rear pipe.
The last one to make the lame walk is a sissy...
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It's certainly not new politics Nick: Nick Clegg has been holding these open, unscripted public meetings since he was elected; something about communicating effectively, direct with the public, to try and overcome the difficulties posed by being ignored and marginalised by the media. You should try and get to one!
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I find it amusing that opponents of the tories are so keen to suggest that there is detail missing from conservative policies.
I do not accept that this is true, as they appear as detailed as the can be given the information available and the possibilities of changing circumstance between now and their potential implementation.
However, this line of criticism entirely misses the point that the public are only choosing between the discredited blair/brown labour party and the conservatives.
We know labour doesn't work; and it is hard to imagine anything worse. Cameron does not have a particularly high hurdle to clear (more like a stinking pit to leap) to beat labour. He doesn't have to break any world records in doing so, he just has to clear the top.
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Are you really surprised Nick! Of course none of the politicians want to participate in meetings where there may be 'off message' individuals. For as long as we continue to participate in the occupation of Iraq there is no politics. The war was illegal, the soldiers were lied to, there were no weapons of mass destruction and it gets more like the war of Jenkin's ear every day. The politicians wanted a war, they got what they wanted but there has to be an end. They want us forget why they went along with this disaster. I want the leaders to announce a date for our withdrawal. It is now or never, we know that civil war will break-out when we leave but we just must not stay another day.
I think that the local militias in Basra have been bribed not to kill British soldiers, proof, when was the last time a British soldier was killed in Iraq?
Maybe if Brown came to the dispatch box every wednesday and not only named the British soldiers who have died since his last announcement but he should also name all the people being murdered on the streets of Britain. There have been more of them than British soldiers killed in Iraq since the turn of the year.
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Poor David Cameron. He says he wants to get down and dirty with the electorate and ends up surrounded by the blue rinse brigade! Maybe true blue Harlow wasn't the best place to start, eh 'Dave'!
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Tony Blair did a lot of the same sort of thing - his favourite was to blandly expose himself to the questions of school children. The real public were held away from him ? until he got door-stepped by Sharon Storer outside a hospital.
I honestly don't think the public take much notice of politicians who are talking or 'debating' in front of a sterile audience.
John Major on his soap box ? as grey as he was ? he was taking the message directly to the public and that went down well. I'd like to see politicians engage far more directly with us plebs.
Question Time should 'go large' and invite a rabble into a large open space and invite debate!
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Maybe "Dave" could liven it up a bit by putting on a real show in the Neil 'triumph of the will' Kinnock mode.
Hordes of adoring blue rinses could swivel in unison as "Dave" as his cohorts march in.
Bundles of cash could thrown into the crowd as everybody chants 'loadsa money, loadsa money, Eton Rifles, Eton Rifles'.
Thats entertainment.
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Hi Nick, I think you might be missing the point. As the London mayoral election and crewe and Nantwich bi-election showed the conservatives win by getting their vote out in numbers not by targetting floating voters. Defeat in the last 3 general elections has been largely down to conservative voter apathy. David Cameron doesn't really need to tour the labour heartlands converting dissaffected labour supporters, he needs to get his natural constituency out. Meetings like last night's in Essex show he creates a buzz amongst tory voters which could well see him home.
Ultimatly the general election will be decided by how many labour voters can be bothered to vote. My feeling at the moment is there is little enthusiasm for Gordon Brown and his team which will hurt them badly. Another factor could be how well the Libdem vote holds up. Of concern to them should be the fact that in the London mayoral election they came nowhere. If this is replicated accross the South East the conservatives will prosper.
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For goodness sake, Nick.
David Cameron does an open meeting (where the people are not hand-picked), answered any questions posed (not planted questions) and will be doing this right across the country (not just in Tory areas).
What is your problem?
I detest the staged and fake way that other politicians and parties (Labour are the worst) go about their public events.
Give the man some credit. The last Tory leaders to do this (Major, Howard etc) got shouted down and given a bad reception.
Cameron deserves more credit than you've given him here- I want MORE OF THIS! SO DON'T KNOCK IT!
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Nick, even if the Tories really had stuffed that hall with their own supporters, this wouldn't be news.
I covered the Wirral South By Election waaay back in 1997 as a young reporter for the Chester Chronicle. It was my first taste of big politics and very exciting ... the only problem was, Wirral is my home turf and so when I rolled up in Heswall, where the then Leader of the Opposition, Tony Blair, was doing a walkabout and meeting shoppers and shopkeepers, I knew there was something amiss. The town centre is never, ever that busy. Certainly not mid-morning, mid-week.
And sure enough, every single person I tried to get a quote off had been 'encouraged' to be there by the local party. Including the woman who handed Blair a red rose and planted a kiss on his cheek, which predictably enough became our lead photo that week.
Political parties in "let's support our own side" shocker? Sorry, once bitten, twice shy - it won't wash with me.
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I'd love for events like this to happen all over the UK with all Parties.
There should be two rules though:
1. Absolutely no stunts or protesting.
2. People are only allowed to ask questions and not make speeches.
The reason politicians stay away from these this is that in Britain - some opposition oik will ruin everything by disrupting it.
If people are allowed to ask anything and really grill leaders - we'd all learn a lot.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
re 13..... your point is well made about Wirral south in 1997, Heswall has always returned 3 Conservative councilor with over 60% of the vote but Labour went on to win, the By Election .....is this then the omen for D.C. go to a solid Labour area, Elesmere Port would be good and then go on to win the General election
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It was all empty Conservative dogma law and order, family values etc. Just vague Ideas associated with the brand. There is little evidence that the conservatives would be better at law and order and would stop family breakdown with tax breaks or whatever.
Then there was the volunteering. Instead of paying employees we can get rid of them and replace them with 'Volunteers' to save money for tax cuts. Making a better society(for who?) makes it easier to make tax cuts.
It all looked fake. Who would have guessed a load of Conservative supporters would turn up to see David Cameron? The negative questions weren't faked questions but I bet he felt pretty safe in that hall.
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This is the most peculiar blog entry. All political leaders conduct questions and answers sessions with voters and the people of Harlow would have been keen to see him. Supporters of political leaders are always much more likely to go and see a leader than people who oppose him or her as they would not be interested or would not waste their time!
As I live in a safe constituency I cannot remember the last time a PM or Party leader has visited my patch and if one did I am sure that all the loyal voters who support him or her would be first to apply. Obviously their questions would be gentler than the opposition supporters.
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garyelsby:14
Closet racists???
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17:
All I said was that it was not unusual for any party to preach to their converted. Why the moderation?
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dhwilkinson - you talk like you were actually there - were you? Or was it shown on TV somewhere and I've missed it? If you were there, it shows that the audience wasn't vetted.
You accept that there were negative questions, so at least he's talking to people, unlike the times that Labour used to stuff halls with their own supporters and pretend it was a cross-section of the public.
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GaryElsby
"Truth is it was a clap happy bunch of anti European losers who have lost three times on the trot (fourth impending)."
A perfect description of Labour in the 80s. I take it you approved of their anti-Europe, CND policies then, so what changed your mind?
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20
What are the odds that the Conservative ideas on volunteering will turn up next week as Labour policy?
Prett good I should think!!!
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This was certainly far from any "New Politics" as the Tories are trying to spin it. Conservative leader goes to safe Tory seat and speaks to Conservatives is hardly breaking the mold. All they want to portray is the impression that they are popular and are united so this is nothing more than another piece of spin. It helps to create an aura of success in their own minds perhaps but the more cycnical amongst us just see that it is "Dave" playing more of the old political games.
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Echo`s of "Yes Minister" and " Yes Prime Minister" .
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CHARADES
Even if the Seven Horsemen of the Apocalypse had tickets and asked fiendishly pertinent questions, nothing would be accomplished.
Party politics, played out in the Westminster games-room, is more self-serving than other-serving.
Read the code of MP conduct and weep.
Check the vote-equivalence of each party's seats and wonder.
Recognise that you can never know whose words are coming from a politician's mouth and give up.
Watch the few remaining faithful voting for a rosette at election time; voting in spite of the pathetic rosette-stand beneath and despair.
Watch Mr Speaker carefully guarding arcane ritual while modern hypocrisy flourishes under his nose and feel homicidal.
Then blog angels on a pin.
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#21
I am very sorry to hear that you live in a 'safe constituency'.
Many of us also do.
Nobody outside of politics even thinks about it.
If they did, then they would realise that a 'safe constituency' is a cast-iron pointer to a moribund democracy.
In my dreams, there would not be a single 'safe constituency' in the land.
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David Cameron is obviously on a roll and not (yet) afraid of getting out and about. To his credit, he is a big improvement on what went before (Howard, Hague, etc)
However when I saw the BBC item "Cameron's ambition to 'transform society" my heart sunk. If the Tories win power, which looks likely, are we in for years of more social upheaval and changes to our already shell-shocked public services?
More control from Whitehall? More meddling? If only politicians would learn that less is sometimes more and not to reach for the statute book every time they get a bright idea. We need improvements and above all a fairer society but not transformation (and what would we be transformed into?) - but then Prime Ministers tend to be more concerned with their legacies rather than our welfare.
Or am I being cynical? Wonder how that happened, if true?
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It doesn't surprise me that Dave is currently doing this sort of thing or as some rightly point out that Nick Clegg is also. They both have something in common, they are in OPPOSITION and have no accountabillity to anyone other than their parties.
It looks and sounds like a laudible thing to do to go out and talk to the people but about what?? If asked anything about policy you just say "of course our policy is still being developed or in draft and "it will all become clear in ...sometime in the future"
Now lets talk about what we're here for another opportunity to slate every "decisision" (these are things that governments deal with) even if we have no coherent alternative and the benefit of hindsight, lets whip up some hysteria about the economy and why not "talk it down" at the same time as thats more likely to get reported in the Mail/Express.
Lets woo our own support and further demoralise Labour supporters with our constant media covered reactionary rehetoric
In my oppinion thats what this is, I don't blame him for doing this, politics is a dirty game and the Tories want power at all costs, but lets not pretend its anything more than this, for Party not Country.
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That's quite cynical but funny. Political salvation while-u-wait. Only £9.99 while stocks last. People are right to be sceptical of "new messiahs" but, also, it is sensible to leave the door open to dialog.
I think, Cameron's could be one sick dawg by the time he does the circuit. If the guy has a clue, perhaps, he won't change other people but he will be changed himself. Now, I'd call that a result.
As Alan Watts suggests, if someone does something because they want something they're a vulture. He comments that we are be better off by embracing what the Chinese call purposelessness. Alan may have been a fake but at least he was a self-confessed genuine fake.
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Sounds like you need a new GPS system Nick!
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#24
"Unlike the times when Labour used to stuff halls with their own supporters and pretend this was a cross-section of the public"
To use you own words Grawth "You talk like you were actually there, Were You?"
If so you allegiance must have changed dramatically or infact you weren't there!!
Only ever so slightly hypocritical.
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I think these kind of open meetings are an excellent idea.
The stage managed meetings might look good on TV but only for the followers of that party. Any party meeting that results in people like Wolfgang ? being thrown out for heckling are an insult to ordinary voters.
My late father said the best speaker he ever heard was Hugh Gaitskill and he was badly heckled, but stood his ground and used the hecklers to push his points across.
We need more open meetings and more open access to politicians - lets forget security for a moment - and this might mean a re-engagement with politics and end the current disenchantment
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If the meeting was genuinely open to anyone, then that's OK with me.
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I attended this meeting last night and can vouch for Nick's description of the turnout, I was the youngest person there and asked one of the only pressing questions of the night.
It was more like a meeting of the DC fan club than a genuine open forum.
I must say that I thought to myself what a smooth operator 'Dave' comes across as, especially when he shamelessly threw his jacket over his shoulder in a calculatedly casual manner!
I can only pray that people don't fall for it all and instead actually listen to the crazy stuff he is proposing- national service and privatising schools to be run by churches and charities, to name but a few. Sounds like a return to the pre-war era, or even worse, the 80's!
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"Are they soaring in the polls because they're not Labour but they lack the definition required to produce many direct questions ................?"
Is this not the real question?
Because they are not Labour, yes. That is exactly the kind of motive for the typical if extreme (!) by-and-council voting we have seen. However, with the 'but' qualification, about 'definition', perhaps not. With government continually turning its coat to appease the back bench (Jacqui Smith included now, and no she hasn't a cat's chance [last blog]) how does an opposition pitch its appeal beyond general image-making and local loyalty-fest? I say this as no supporter of Cameron's, but just how do you define yourself against Labour's policy mirage?
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Anyone else think that if today's proposals on the NHS had been announced by a Tory government then the ENTIRE Labour party would have denounced it as privatisation?
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Eatonrifle
#35
No, not hypocritical, just asking whether he had seen it, because I hadn't.
As to the comment about the Labour meetings, that is based on the reporting of these two events. Nick's blog says DC's meeting was in front of the first 200 that applied, so in theory anyone could have gone. It has been widely reported that similar things tried by the Labour party have not been done in that fashion, but were to an invited audience of activists.
So, I have been to neither, but have read the reports of both, hence my conclusions.
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It does show I fear that the politicians are "listening" but not learning.
Labour started off with crowds of the public ( or party workers in reality) greeting Blair to Downing St. Its all part of the spin spin spin process we all know that has led to poor Gordon Brown being hammered because he can no longer be credible when he says hes going to start listening - after more than a decade.
The thing that will interest me about the Tories short run is Boris. Will he keep the muzzle on or will he become some Tory King Kong ranting from the city skyline? Maybe I was wrong about him - but his decision regarding Venezualan oil smacks of old Tory posturing rather than good business and environmental concern.
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When New Labour first came into power their election manifesto was full of generalised statements and waffle whereas the Conservative's was full of very specific pledges and statements - the lack of highly detailed policies didn't stop TB getting to Downing Street - so why should it be any different now??
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Did anyone else notice Cameron's hand gestures in the meeting and in his interviews - all carbon copies of the Tony Blair emoting stance. He's been having lessons......
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As a local reporter in Harlow (who was there for the whole of the meeting), I think Nick is slightly wrong about the make-up of the audience.
I agree Cameron got a disappointingly easy ride, but I certainly recognised a good number of non-Tories and supporters of other parties, who could have given him a much harder time had they so wished. The fact that they didn't perhaps suggests that Cameron is better able to communicate to people across the political spectrum than previous Conservative leaders.
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41# and where/when was this wide reporting you're referring too?
I'm not suggesting for a minute that you're biassed but "reporting" can be.
Politicians of all pursuasions like nothing more than preaching to the converted. Please look at 38# for a first hand account
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# 33
'Dave' says that 'Eton Rifles' is one of his favourite songs.
The Modfather himself, Paul Weller, asks in bafflement whether 'Dave' has actually read the lyrics of this song.
Weller was inspired to create the song when he witnessed some Eton lads tacking the mickey out of some striking workers in Slough.
It makes me sick to the pit of my stomach to think that working people are, all these centuries later, still being dumped on by 'the elite'.
It appears that some things never change in England and that is not good enough.
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This might be a response to GB's "cold calling". As I've said before, DC is far more personable then GB. Perhaps GB comes over better on the telephone?
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Like anything Cameron does this was a sham!
How can you claim it to be a Open Meeting when a high proportion were either Tory members or supporters (as seen in Nick Robison's report).
Say what you want about Gordon Brown at least he has been phoning people randomly who have written to him. Not just Labour supporters and members!!
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Interesting that Chuck Hogwash who lays claim to Zen Buddhist powers of self control has allowed himself to admit to being 'irritated' by our Dave's performance.
Shame, because he's going to be 'irritating' you a lot more when he becomes Prime Minister.
New labour are finished; listen agin to Liam Byrne being lambasted for the riduculousness of the 'British Day' on radio 4 last night. I've never heard such a lame duck reply.
The nice thing is you can now hear it in the voices of New Labour; they betray their fear that they've had it. Just like their apologists on these blogs.
Happy days.
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As someone who did attend the whole of this event I can asure you that a large number of the people present were not local party members. and also many of them have never voted conservative nor are they likely to. I say this as I canvassed them as recently as Monday of this week. We have a by-election in a couple of weeks time.
What was interesting was how many of Bill Rammell's neighbours were in the hall, about 6 of us and I am the only one who at the moment is a member of the party
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42 day limit to being held without charge.
brilliant instigation of a law that no-one wants.
Nice to know that with superdave removing the human rights act that anyone in the country can be held on the flimsiest of evidence without charge for almost a month and a half and now be tortured as the law that prevents this is about to be removed.
the British public sinks to a new level of stupidity.
I thought Brown was bad in taking our rights away bit this is even worse!
Sadly the stupid and the elderly aren't smart enough to realise that the human rights act is there to protect all of us.
Blue rinse brigade hail your new Jailer.
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One of the (many) things I admired about Blair was his willingness on several occasions to get into a TV studio discussion with an audience selected from those who disagreed with him, often violently. I can't see Brown doing that, and Cameron couldn't because nobody would know whether they disagreed with him or not.
Pity that like Isaac Newton before him Blair is now lurching off into mysticism.
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As for Dave's so-called "new politics", am I imagining this or did he talk about being more constructive and less confrontational in Parliament?
I have yet to see him being even remotely constructive at PMQs: all that I've ever seen him do is play a game with Gordon Brown of "who can come up with the best smart-arse soundbite?"
So forgive me if I don't take his attempt at "new politics" too seriously.
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Am I the only person that is absolutely appalled at the prospect of 42 day detention with Superdave promising to repeal the human rights act.
For all of Gordon Brown's stupidity on how right he is to vote for those powers, this proves what a silly man he is, as it clearly proves the inherent dangers of voting in such laws is that some draconian idiot after you will vote in far worse on the back of your already flawed efforts.
Nuff said
Em.
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Just logged on to my PC and noticed this biannual report from OECD, as follows;
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The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) has warned that the global economic slowdown may last longer than expected.
It added that the UK economy was headed for a significant downturn that put government spending plans in danger. The OECD said UK growth would slow to 1.8% this year, and to 1.4% in 2009.
And the slowdown in both Europe and the US, as well as the housing slump, is likely to hit growth in the UK, where economic growth is also expected to slow to 1.4% in 2009.
This is bad news for UK Chancellor Alistair Darling, who will be facing an election by 2010 and who has been counting on improved growth to help meet a growing budget deficit.
I expect the world economy to slow even faster than the OECD forecast," said Denis Snower, director of the Kiel centre for the World Economy.
"Although we may have seen the worst of the financial crisis, the lagging effects on the world economy are likely to be severe."
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Oh dear that scuppers Mr Bean who was counting on an upturn in the economy by 2010.
It will be 2009/10 when NuLabours incompetence over the last 11 years really comes to light, and they will then be cutting services! Oh dear, just before an election to!
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56# Couldn't agree more on PMQs. Cameron reminds me of the typical play-ground bully, shrill and spitefull being goaded on by similar minds. Their attitudes on issues such as immigration, asylum Europe etc was pretty much clear from their last manifesto (written by Dave incidentally) and election a short three years ago, but as they now have a new confidence they're "Off the leash" again. Dark days ahead (IMO) I fear but we'll see. opposition is so easy, Government somewhat different, perhaps people may realise before committing a vote to the Bullingdon Boys.
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58# Strange that people seem to rejoice in bad news for our economy and the livelihoods of millions in the Uk. The report at least acknowledges the "world" effect , I wonder if the report is unwelcome news at Tory HQ or weather there's smiles all round, I know what I think.
By the way NLNH why the "-2" don't you have enough usernames to put forward your "inciteful" oppinions.
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emlymcplugger
Nope Emily. I'm appalled by the 42 days too. It will be a very, very sad day for England if this is passed.
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#58 - Yes, there is a global economic problem that is bound to affect the UK. Read all the OECD report and you will see that all the countries covered by their review will be affected at least as much - and in spite of the problems they are predicting continued growth, not the sort of recession some of us are old enough to remember.
While you are looking at external commentaries on the Uk's economic performance, you might look at the latest IMF report. Naturally it also predicts a slowing of growth, but its first paragraph might be of interest to those who try to devalue the achievements of the past decade:
"For over a decade, the United Kingdom has sustained low inflation and rapid economic growth - an exceptional achievement. More recently, the economy grew by 3 percent in 2007, and inflation returned to target after a temporary elevation. All this is the fruit of strong policies and policy frameworks, which provide a strong foundation to weather global shocks."
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58. You seem to be rubbing your hands with glee at the prospect of an economic downturn. Perhaps you're comfortably well off and won't be affected by this, but believe me it will cause hardship for many many people, so why is it that this news gives you so much joy ? Maybe you enjoy this sort of thing, which would explain your hankering for a Conservative government! afterall , economic downturns, increased unemployment and cuts in public service were their stock in trade through the 80's and early 90's.
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grawth@24
I only saw it on the news. I suspect very few people were actually there that comment on here. They talked about a new vision of a better society in vague dogmatic terms. Family values, law and order and not forgetting cheap skate policies like using volunteers instead of employing people.
There is no evidence that Conservatives are better at keeping law and order or keeping families together so to me these are just aspirations. designed to associate the conservatives with a positive image. These asperations are shared by everyone has not just Conservatives it is an insult to suggest otherwise.
It was unvetted as you say but it did end up stuffed with conservative supporters. Obviously because they are the only ones interested in talking to David Cameron. The few neutrals there would have been outnumbered and would hesitate to speak why I think it looked like a false PR excercise the the shot of the man reading out a rehearsed anti labour question.
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62 and 63# Well said both. But Jimbrant I must point out for your own safety that qouting anything independent or "factual" that suggests perhaps the economy has been well run will be met by Gloating and Goading Rhetoric laced with a smattering of name calling. Preparae for an avalanche of "Mr Beans, Gordon the Moron, Goon McBroon" and on and on and on and on.....Come on NLNH where are you and Pupledog and Septic Max etc
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#62: jimbrant
"For over a decade, the United Kingdom has sustained low inflation and rapid economic growth - an exceptional achievement. More recently, the economy grew by 3 percent in 2007, and inflation returned to target after a temporary elevation. All this is the fruit of strong policies and policy frameworks, which provide a strong foundation to weather global shocks."
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Mr Bean in 1979 inherited an economy that had been growing for over 2 years. Globally the economy was on a bounce. Unfortunately Mr Bean spend, spend and spend again in the good times has led to Britain being ill placed to weather the economic turbulence that is now prevalent.
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What the OECD specifically said is;
And in some countries - notably the US and the UK - the lack of fiscal discipline means that there is little scope for increased government spending to help overcome the slowdown.
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I distinctly remember Mr Bean bragging - their will be no boom and bust on my watch! That I feel will be very reassuring for the millions of people and businesses being hurt now, and we have not even hit the eye of the economic storm.
Mr Brean has recently said that under his stewardship the UK economy will weather the economic storm. Mr Bean does not have any economic ability to manoeuvre through the impending downturn in the economy because of the debts he has racked up.
Many are now paying the costs from personal debt. In a few years time millions will be paying for the NuLabour debt!
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Disco Dave said he'd given it a go but after he was asked about his returning to Punch and Judy politics admitted he didn't have the resilience. This weakness is offset by his personality being front-loaded with a chummy approach. He's a vacuous sprinter, not a deep thinking marathon runner.
His Bullingdon Bully routine is the antithesis of Gordon Brown. This is why the Prime Minister was thrown so easily but he's no dummy. While Cameron plays poker, Gordon Brown plays Go. By pulling back and working around Cameron he will be surrounded and slowly strangled.
Gordon Brown is such a genius he can turn a recession into a Good Thing?. The Prime Minister is well placed to deliver a more fit for purpose incomes policy in cooperation with business and unions. As the finished product arrives, Disco Dave's Roadshow will be hitting the buy 2 get 1 free bargain bin.
Macho, macho man. La-lala-la. De-dee-la.
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I asked the first question at Cameron's meeting in Harlow last night.
With several questions in mind, including one putting Cameron on the spot about the Lisbon constitutional treaty, I wish I had written one of these out. As it was, having rushed there straight from work, I was surprised to be picked at all lete alone first and had to hurriedly decide what to ask. So I fluffed my question and gave Cameron an easier ride than I had intended. My question wasn't a plant, nor was it vetted, even I didn't know what I would ask until Cameron invited me to question him.
I am not a Tory. I was a life long Liberal until 2004 when I stood for election to Harlow council as an Independent for HOOP (Hands Off Our Park). Standing against the Conservatives in a Tory stronghold - I came second and almost beat them. You can verify that as the result is online:
http://www.harlow.gov.uk/about_the_council/council_services/electoral_services/elections/local_elections/election_june_2004/election_results_june_2004.aspx
I now support Cameron because I like his Liberal Conservatism.
There were a surprising number of young people at last night's meeting and many attended who were not Conservatives. The questioner from the Civic Society isn't a Conservative either.
At around the same age as PM Brown, am I elderly?
Why did Cameron pick me to ask a question? He couldn't have failed to have noticed that I'm severely deaf. My daughter and I were signing to each other because she acted as my BSL interpreter. I've worked hard to keep my speech, which is still reasonably clear, but Cameron wasn't to know that.
Cameron took more risks last night than he appeared to.
Colleen Morrison
Harlow
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66#
Right on cue!
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#62: jimbrant
"For over a decade, the United Kingdom has sustained low inflation and rapid economic growth - an exceptional achievement. More recently, the economy grew by 3 percent in 2007, and inflation returned to target after a temporary elevation. All this is the fruit of strong policies and policy frameworks, which provide a strong foundation to weather global shocks."
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Whew 3 percent. Still trotting out that NuLabour hobby horse. I feel that millions of people currently finding it hard to pay bills wouldnt endorse that figure. 3 percent inflation - just more NuLabour waffle!
Just had another letter from my energy supplier, second year on the trot, my bill will be going up again substantially. Looks like I, and millions of others will be happy that we have 3 percent inflation. Yeah dream on!
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According to others who were there, Nick Robinson is seriously misrepresenting the event. There were many non-Conservatives there at the beginning. Far more Conservatives at the end, when they had heard Cameron speak.
How do I make a formal complaint to the BBC of political bias? Mr Robinson broadcast similar lies about this being staged on television, and that is against the BBC's charter. The tiny number of people he polled do not allow him to judge that the vast majority of the audience were established Conservatives, as Robinson suggested.
All lies, as usual from the left-wing BBC.
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#66 Anonymous
You have your view of the last ten years or so, and the IMF (among others) have theirs. I guess I'll just have to pummel my brain to reckon up which view I will go with.
And btw the whole point is that we haven't had boom and bust. Even now, with the immense change in global conditions, the forecast is for growth, not recession. But of course that is because of Major and Lawson - silly of me not to have realised that.
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I live in what was once a Nulabour strong hold.
We have had a Labour Council for as long as I can remember. That was until Council bills started going through the roof.
Now we have a LibDem Council and you just would not believe it. Services are better and we are paying less for them.
Pity NuLabour cannot emulate that kind of delivery.
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Emilymcpluuger,
I agree with you that 42 days pre charge detention is going to far. Personaly, i'd prefer to see post charge questioning.
On the issue of repealing the human rights act, i'm not sure this would lead to people being tortured whilst in detention. I'm guessing that the human rights act is not the only peace of legislation preventing the torture of prisoners.
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#70 Anonymous
"Just had another letter from my energy supplier .."
I hope you were able to understand that rather better than you were able to understand my post. The quote was from the IMF, which is not part of the government, and the 3% related to growth last year, not inflation.
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"It was billed as..."
Stop right there. That was the problem.
Nick Clegg's town hall meetings are not "billed". He actually wants to get out of Westminster and talk to people.
Cameron may have good intentions, but he's a little too obsessed with PMQs to not see direct contact with the voters as a PR opportunity.
You shouldn't have known about this meeting at all, Nick. The national media are not invited to Clegg's meetings. Mind you, I'm sure if you make friends with him on Facebook and ask very nicely he might let you as an individual voter come to the next one!
Having said all that, I'm happy that Cameron has copied Clegg's idea - it was a good'un.
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Well, MY post (No 14) also got pulled in "for questioning", as did several others.
I don't see what the problem was Nick, but I don't think I was being slanderous or libelous.
What I meant was that every politcal event is stage-managed to a certain degree - much in the way that PMs Questions always have the customary "The Government is doing a wonderful job" type questions.
There was one big assumption - that the local Conservatives bought most of the tickets well in advance. Unless there is definitive proof, that is a bit unfair. I would have expected the local Labour and Lib Dems trying to get most of the tickets in order to (rightly so) give David Cameron a hard time.
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What we aren't told is, did he actually answer the questions posed to him?
Gordon Brown is incapable of answering a straight question as he proved again at PMQs again today.
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Big companies use tricks to inflate their incomes so they don't disturb the inflation rate. The government is looking into the profit driven price rises that are being partly fueled by greed ahead of any downturn, and reviewing competition law to reduce the power of cosy cartels and stimulate new businesses.
Meanwhile, more responsible business and unions may be brought together to help create a new incomes settlement. This could be a bit tight in the short-term but much fairer and keep people in work. Heck, I can see employment rising even under a recession.
Other change coming on stream is cleaner engine technology and developing markets. The boat could half capsize but the long-term is growth, growth, growth. Add reductions in military spend and the Far-East playing a larger role in world policing, and the future looks like a holiday camp.
Gordon will get us to the promised land...
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re 74.
of course there are other pieces of legislation that prevent torture. However it is interesting that on these blogs not one person has mentioned yet another eroder of human rights has stepped up to the plate.
For all this idea of nice Dave Cameron, the reality is that much of this is packaging and with far less substance than even the last tory Government, which I do believe was a lot less right wing than the current one ...based on the fact that I worked for it.
Nuff said
EM
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71# interesting views on Nick robinson, allegedly but I don't know if true, to be a former Tory Party Member!!
Perhaps someone could enlighten us.
But as for "all lies as usual from the left wing BBC" oh please!
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So, let's get this one clear:
DC speaks at a public meeting, which ended up being a largely (though not entirely) self-selecting group of Troy cheerleaders. Not just that, but what he's doing is the predominant way political campaigning took place before the TV age.
So, in what way does this actually constitute news? I'm keen to guess
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About a week or so ago, on these blogs, I predicted another home made disaster for NuLabour the changes to VED. It went like this;
------------------
Another self made disaster, accident waiting to happen is the hefty increases he has introduced to the road fund licence, whilst intended as green taxes many will perceive them as pure tax hikes, money to be dropped into another NuLabour spending black hole!
These hefty rises will be dropping through people?s letter boxes throughout the year preceding the GE.
And surprise, surprise in the above proposals, buried in the small print is the scrapping of the exemption for older cars from the highest rates of vehicle excise duty. I don?t know about you but I have not seen many middle income earners, high income earners or rich drivers with cars over 10 years old. Yep once again Mr Bean is hitting the lowest paid workers in Britain.
-------------------------
Looks like NuLabour are the party that are driving our lowest paid workers off the roads.
I have two hard working daughters both on between 10 and 12 thousand pounds per year.
They were stung when Mr Bean doubled there tax. Although he gave them 125 pound back they are still losers and because they cannot afford a newer car they are going to be clobbered again.
I was once an active supporter of Labour for 40+ years. Just over a week ago my youngest daughter came at me with a question ?Daddy I thought you always said that Labour was the party that believed in fairness and equity and were there to support the less well off workers?.
I was pretty much stumped on that one. I wonder if one of you nice NuLabour ranters can give her an answer.
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illuminatusmagister said:
"So in what way does this actually constitute news?"
For a high flying politician to hold a real public meeting in Harlow - and this was a real public meeting, I can verify that as, unlike most here, I was at the meeting - is news here.
Gordon Brown has never considered our little English town of Harlow worthy of a visit from his majesty, let alone an open meeting.
When Tony Blair came to Harlow (disguised as David Blunkett, for that's who those invited were misled to believe was to speak) he crept in furtively, to a tightly controlled, invitation only, rent-a-crowd affair, populated by the few party loyalists he had left here.
All credit to Cameron for holding the meeting and for inviting those present to question him. I asked him a question about a referendum on the Lisbon constitutional treaty. Cameron hadn't a clue beforehand what I would ask him - in all truth, neither had I until he asked me :)
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Re 80
The human rights act is a well intentioned piece of legislation but, IMO, there have been some perverse results in its implementation. I think that its application should reviewed to determine whether it is being applied appropriately and as intentioned, this should really happen with all legislation.
On the seconf point i'm not sure whether you mean that this labour government is more right wing than the previous administration or David Cameron's tories are more right wing than their previous government.
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So Cameron goaded Brown today about being "crap at communication". The retort should have been a la Ed Balls "so what".
School boy debating at best. It's infantile and typical of his Bullingdon Boy background.
For Cameron "communication" is everything - for Brown governing is about delivery. I know which approach I prefer.
I note Nick's article was called "Cameron Direct" - what exactly though has DC ever been direct about. He obviously hates Brown and is direct about that. He obviously does not have a policy platform of any sort whatsoever.
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Gordon will get us to the promised land.......C-E-H.
I'll be dead by then and won't gain any benefit at all.
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No need to worry that there were only Tories at the "meeting"
Sooner or later Dave will be asked the following questions by the media.
So, if you are elected PM, would you remove all these taxes which you are now considering to be hitting the poor? The poor that have bought cars doing 25 or 20 mile to the gallon!
And another question if I may - Which green taxes do you agree to?
Thanks for asking these questions Nick. Well done, and have a nice day.
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Account of the same event by Hugh Muir from the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jun/04/davidcameron.conservatives
Mr Muir sat through the whole thing and interviewed a few participants. Nick, you need to do a better job next time.
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Some of the things the Conservatives have said they disagree with:
The European social chapter, the Human rights act and Health and Safety regulations, Paying people for work they'd much rather exploit volunteers.
A better society for who?
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NuLabourNohope_2@83
My favourite was when he was getting dressed in his Mini. he ended up drilling his own teeth at the dentist urgh. and the one where he was driving on his new armchair on top of the car, very funny! I don't remember seeing any of the episodes that you talk about though. Whats with the _2.
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#84:
The fact that a politician having a public meeting can in any way constitutes news demonstrates just what is wrong with everything in the political process in this country. A process of which, lest we forget, political journos like Nick Robinson are an integral part.
Either side can rant as much as they like, but the larger point still stands: gimmicks like this (and they are definitely gimmicks) can't paper over the cracks that show Westminster and the culture around it are utterly cut off from the reality fo daily life. The routine of petty backstabbing and name-calling that passes as news has nothing to do with people's real lives so they disengage. Worse, the main parties sing from the same economically libertarian yet socially authoritarian hymn sheet and hence voters have no real choice. So they retreat form party politics.
What we are seeing is not, as politicians would like to believe, just voter apathy. It is an active disengagement from and repudiation of a system which is now utterly debased and without point or relevance to vast swathes of the populace.
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Well Nick, perhaps this is 'new politics' in the same sense that the end to punch and judy was. I know you saw PMQs today, and Cameron's performance was nothing more than a punch and judy performance. I don't support labour, far from it, but I found Cameron's behaviour actually a bit unpleasant.
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RE 88
If you read the link supplied in #89 it would answer the first of your questions.
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It seem that my comment @46 as been sent to dusty bin. I only asked why it was necessary for the BBC political editor, producerand cameraman to go to a Conservative dog and pony show, why not a trainee reporter/presenter, and wondered what the expenses would be
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90 dhwilkinson wrote:
Some of the things the Conservatives have said they disagree with:
The European social chapter, the Human rights act and Health and Safety regulations, Paying people for work they'd much rather exploit volunteers.
A better society for who?
Exactly, what is there for future generations, they are going to be forced into Totalitarianism, one rule (worked for hitler), greed and Global power, wealth and poverty will control us, in their own terms, they will make us NULL, our fought for rights OUR politics is been driven by Economic Globalist ideals. Really the world has changed now this last 2 decades that we, dont quite understand!
BTW i aint a Tory!
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#91: dhwilkinson
NuLabourNohope_2@83
My favourite was when he was getting dressed in his Mini. he ended up drilling his own teeth at the dentist urgh. and the one where he was driving on his new armchair on top of the car, very funny! I don't remember seeing any of the episodes that you talk about though. Whats with the _2.
---------------------------------
Whew how astute you are and here was I thinking that I would get away with changing my name from NuLabourNoHope to NuLabourNoHope_2.
Wonder which T shirt you have on today, the yellow one with Nick Clegg on the front or the red one with the monkey on the front?
One question for you. I note on a number of occasions you have responded strongly when NR has been brought up. Are you by any chance from the North East?
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Throw in a bullet point or two, a gee-whiz novelty, and smother it in the shock and awe of celebrity and someone like Cameron could pull off the Doris Stokes routine and pick your voting pocket bare.
And what's with the Scientology routine from Clegg? What's he peddling?
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#87
Gordon will indeed get us English to the promised land - England - albeit unintentionally.
It would seem that that the die is cast and the political fate of the English rests in the hands of two Scottish politicians.
One, Alex Salmond, possibly the smartest political operator in Britain today, who I reckon will slide the knife into the corpse of political Britain at the perfect moment in 2010.
And other is Gordon Brown, who must hang in there like a limpet for just two more years.
Stay with the (incoherent) programme, Gordon please .. we English must suffer you (for our political apathy) a couple more years ... and then the promised land of England will begin to take form through the political mists of time.
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Charles,
I've got to hand it to you, some of your posts are almost making sense. You're still throwing in a few of those little 'chestnuts' though. But, by and large, quite sensible stuff. It is getting me worried though, I mean where will it end, Kiwilegs, writing essays instead of theses, grandantidote, being a little less rabid, perhaps even throwing in the occasional 'cool man' for effect. Things are certainly getting ineresting. Then we do live in interesting times. It's going to get even more interesting in the run-up to the next general election.
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There's constitutional clutter gumming up the works but nothing better attitudes couldn't sort out. I agree, Alex Salmond can look clever, but he's a bit narrow minded and not too smart. He's prominent but not someone I consider a serious player. Quite the pipsqeak in some ways given his kowtowing to The Trumpster.
People obsess too much. This etches divisions in reasoning and pushes people apart. It's mostly a construct of the mind and no more real than any other dream. A few snaps of political fingers here and there with a bit of handwaving for added drama, and things change.
Sloughing of Scotland won't change peoples self-perception. It could even make it worse. The real problem is dealing with a changed world and finding who we are. Japan has a similar problem with being "hollowed out". It's probably better not to think or worry about it too much.
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93
Could it be that you found PMQ's unpleasant because Brown is so utterly inept and that Cameron wiped the floor with him yet again. You would expect Brown to at least make an effort, but he is just utterly hopeless and convinces no-one. Its like a defenceless boxer on the ropes.....
I even felt Cameron was holding back....
You should actually feel sorry for the electorate who may have have to suffer this incompetent man for another 2 years.
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Nick I nearly ended myself when reading your header 5 minutes ago.
I wonder how Cameron will perform when faced with a hostile press pack.
Now as he has had an easy run from the likes of you and Bolton, what is he going to do when you all put the screws in?
Fill his Kacks no doubt.
I wonder how quickly the 20 point lead in the polls will fall?
This guy Cameron is certainly heading for one god almighty fall, he has pushed hios luck to the limits, I think he has reached the proverbila bridge too far and he has peaked too early.
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I would like to make a couple of points as someone who was at the meeting from start to finish and helped take the nearly 700 phone calls received requesting tickets.
#77 tickets were FREE on a first come first served basis. Conservatives members had no more advance warning than any other member of the public. They found out at the same time it came out in the local papers.I turned down a conservative activist of 40 years because all the seats were taken. I have the spread sheet with all 200 names and address as definitive proof.
#78 In answer to your question did he answer them? YES he did.
I would like to assure all the doubters that there were only a handful of Conservatives in a large open public meeting. Perhaps Nick would like to show the unedited version and let people see the non Tory voters he spoke to.
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nulabournohope_2@97
Is Nick Robinson from the North East? ;)
Yes I would like to see the Lib Dems do well and vote for them but I have to be realistic. I am from the north East which in terms of national government is safe New Labour territory. Even though I do vote lib dem it doesn't count. Like a lot of other lib dem votes in similar situations. The system works against the third party.
Until we have PR and/or the lib dems make themselves, and are allowed to be more credible. I have to have a realistic 2nd preference. as I you so rightly say I am from the North East so have a dislike of anything Conservative. Like they have a dislike of us. Because we don't vote for them.
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#101
Maybe I should have used 'sword' rather than 'knife' with Salmond the defender of Scotland 'forced' to raise the sword which, by its own design, allows the unfortunate enemy Brown to impale himself.
However, when I thought about 'sword' and 'politician' all that readily came to mind was Jonathon Aitken's notorious 'trusty sword of truth' so I wished to aver on that one.
Look, let us cut to the chase, Salmond is focussed, utterly focussed, on securing Scotland as a truly independent nation again.
It does not matter whether you or I agree with him or not, all the current signs in Scotland, despite a virtual news blackout in England on it, are that Salmond and the SNP are on a mighty roll.
All Brown can do is never ever mention Scotland in the vain hope that we English do not learn what is going on up there.
They are heading out of the Union and good luck to them, they are actually doing us apathetic English a huge favour.
In the end, and it might be quite a long time coming, there will be a federated Europe, which we we all be part of and one family 'Europeans', rather like the USA in political structure, but obviously not quite so much to 'the right' for those who are comfortable with that terminology.
PS. I am very pleased to see Senator Obama's progress. In my humble opinion, if he becomes POTUS then America will definately start to heal the damage done to America's standing by the current regime.
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10cents@89
Read this guardian report. Whats the difference?
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"The Labour Party's no longer for anyone in the country and somebody's got to do something about it."
Comment of one of those who attended David Cameron's meeting last night.
Link to the film showing her comments plus some of the young people who attended:
http://www.harlowstar.co.uk/harlowstar/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=319985
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No coverage of WebCameron or the fact that the Conservatives are the only party with official profiles on Bebo, Facebook and MySpace.
I found your news item incredibly politically biased, and will be writing to Feedback.
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102 # You and I did not watch the same PMQ's I know on the Bolton show they think Cameron hammered Brown.
I watched it and Brown answered each and every question and made Cameron look the double crossing, slick used car salesman that we are all now witnessing.
Next bear in mind Cameron has only once been faced by a hostile press pack, that was 2 years ago and he threw his dummy out of the pram when they got him by the round things.
He told Sky news he would not appear on their programme again until they changed.
Sky changed Cameron did not, but he was given a easy ride by them,.
Brown is not so fortuntate plus the fact he is suffering from a sustained Character Assasination by Camron and Osborne for no other reason than Brown made Osborne look a prat when he shadowed him at the Treasury. It is the only ammunition this pair have against Brown aided and abetted by a hostile press pack and TV news one owned by the same mogul who owns the filthy rag the "Sun" newspaper, AKA in these parts as the Whores Gazzette.
What an endorsement for Cameron is it not. That particular worm will turn when the elestorate does and political editors are now showing the first signs of giving Broen a break as they should. Most of the flak he has been through has been thoroughly undeserved and whatsmore they all know it.
Even Nick the ex-young Tory wallah, is starting to wisen up.
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110 #excuse spelling I am tired and need my bed. That's my excuse and I am sticking to it. And all the rest is propaganda!
An exteremly tired kiwilegs !!!!
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U1222585@109
"No coverage of WebCameron or the fact that the Conservatives are the only party with official profiles on Bebo, Facebook and MySpace.
I found your news item incredibly politically biased, and will be writing to Feedback."
Is this a joke?
We all know Dave's a crazy guy who's into the whole internet scene. There's no reason to go writing a strongly worded letter to the BBC because they didn't mention it!
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Sorry Kiwilegs, but this
"Brown answered each and every question "
is just plain rubbish. The only sense in which GB answered the question is that he spoke some words after being asked something. Those words had little or nothing to do with the question asked. If I get time tomorrow I will rewatch, and transcribe some bits to check, but I do know that GB was asked how a retrospective tax could be regarded as a green tax, and he did not answer that.
He did have a pop at a couple of Tories who asked mischievous questions regarding cold-calling and his leadership, suggesting that perhaps they should have asked "real" questions". Of course, when asked real questions, he doesn't answer so it almost feels like there's no point asking the question because you won't get a reply.
Equally, every question asked by the Labour members is of course a "real" question, and not at all planted to give GB an opportunity to announce a policy, or send a message. An example from today might be "would the PM please explain the case for 42 days" - cue GB reading a lengthy prepared statement. Bet the MP got lots of brownie points for asking that one.
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111 Kiwilegs good on you girl your fighting the good fight but dont allow them to goad you on, thats their aim hoping you'll make a mistake,have a rest you deserve it.
As Gordon keeps telling the Tories, PMQs Cameron has seven questions. wasted! each Tory called by the speaker gets one, invariably wasted! no substance ,either sound bites or name calling,and then they say GB does'nt answer, answer what!
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Nick
The only comment that has less point in it then your lasted posting, is myself pointing out the fact, that you have no point.
The media has called Cameron anything from a new Thatcher to a new Tony Blair to a Old Toff Tory.
The truth is you in the media don't like not been given a silver plate narrative to collectively and safely hide behind, and you do not like it.
IMO
Cameron is having a laugh at watching you lot trying to nail him down. He is intellectually out witting you and this makes you all seem more then a little incompetent.
Very much the tactic Boris employed, you in the BBC especially underestimated him and you all now have a whole battery farm of eggs on your faces.
Unfortunately Cameron has had the same effect on myself, as I don't have any better idea what he is going to actually do in power, or what he really stands for, then you do.
The difference is I do not get payed vast amounts of tax payers money to know anything about our political elites personal persuasions, YOU DO.
Is there possibly any chance that you Nick will NAIL yourself to the mast and give us an informed or educated clue. So finally justifying at least part of your wages and expenses, sometime before the next general election?
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114:
At some stage within the next two years you willl be smelling the coffeee and eating your words. DC is here to stay and will wipe the floor with GB at The GE. Care to place a bet?
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A Tory supporter admits he doesn't have a clue what Cameron stands for or will do when in power?
Well, the game Boris played is similar to Cameron. It's hazy catch-all bullet points and emotions, followed by a slap to the poor. Fundamentally, it's not about genuine improvement, informed consent, or consensus, it's pure power politics and getting the win.
If you look carefully at the feintly etched subtstance that does show through it doesn't withstand much scrutiny. They're hiding their forces behind the hill but it's the same pro-big business asset stripping, and services and welfare cutting party. People take an ice age to change and they're not there yet.
There is too much arrogance and selfishness in politics. Put another way, there's too much politics in politics. I could pull up comment where my focus was on the issues and consensus, but all the key failings of the major parties just ended up getting in the way. All that proves is winning is for losers.
The fundamentals are heading in that direction anyway. You could put a trained parrot in as POTUS and get the same result. I'm no fan of Bush but the key policy goals in place as he leaves office are there for the picking up. The best thing the next POTUS could do is sit on his ass and blow cigar rings out of the Oval Office window.
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113 Grawth#
Please see previous thread post No.291. Answer to your question re: pensions.
Will be back later on today to do battle with you regarding PMQ's look forward with great relish to that debate.
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Re comment 81, Mr Robinson was not only a member of the Conservative Party but an active one at that as Chairman of Young Conservatives
Re comment 71, I to would make a complaint to the BBC of political bias, why was a Conservative Party political meeting given such treatment. This was nothing more than a political party scam. Party HQ must be well satisfied
Now look out the next episode, Mr Brown being attacked by some unknown and made to look ........... you can fill in the missing word.
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RE:#107
Difference is he WAS there, he's able to quote the questions asked and DC's answers. And yes, some of the questions were difficult. There're also quotes from interviews with the audience. It's a much better report than Nick's. I'd really expected better from BBC.
Another difference is it's a less comfortable reading for labour supporters than Nick's account. -
"I have not voted for 20 years but I won't vote Labour and I will probably vote for him."
"He looked confident. I like that in a politician," he said. "Gordon Brown doesn't come across as confident at all."
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re: 117
People have no clue what David Cameron's conservative would do if they're in government.
OTOH, people are convinced that the Labour government have no clue what they're doing, and there's no hope they can sort out the mess under Gordon Brown.
Gordon Brown called David Cameron a "shallow salesman". He missed two things:
1. People no longer regard him as a man of substance.
2. To be a good politician, you need to be a good salesman. You need to be able to sell your ideas, your policies, your persona.
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I`m surprised it passed off without a life long member and support being removed under the Terrorism act, oh it was a tory conference sorry.
As for policies, didn`t Blair have 5 on a card in `97 and Brown have none in 2007?!?
But then again he was "un-opposed" in running for "Blessed Leader" wasn`t he.
As far as i`m concerned Cameron can keep his policies close to his chest, he`s the opposition why give ideas to NewLiars?!
Concessions on 42 days to protect there silver lined pensions....... Oh i forgot if you`ve got nothing to hide there`s nothing
to fear.
As for the Labour hard core on here did you not notice the cuckoo in the nest in 1997?! (Blair), the destruction of Labour and its core values has continued ever since hence "New Labour" (Give away in the title)
The proud party you and i used cling on to is nothing but awash with blood and incompetence.............
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The reason why people are switching off politics is the same as why forums empty. Too much competitive behaviour, or ego, is boring and crowds everything else out. Sure, it might be "a win" but it's a pyrrhic victory. Nobody gains.
Watching PMQ's was interesting and it's useful to balance this with a comment by Peter Hain on diplomacy. Once you cut past the fluff you discover it doesn't matter. Politicians may try to fake it or sell the promise of it but it never went away.
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When is Gordon Brown going to open himself up to questioning form his own MPs?
When is Gordon Brown going to realise that name calling is cheap and tacky and turning off the electorate faster than you can say election that never was.
'Shallow salesman' what's he talking about? I know a lot of shallow salesmen who are simply trying to put food on the table for their hard working families and who aren't amused by Gordon's name calling.
He digs himself deeper into the mire every time he speaks.
Long may he continue in his dithering ways.
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The Prime Minister could polish his performance and relax more but his comments do have some substance and focus. While Cameron's bullying and baiting ruffles and upsets the Prime Minister he looks like a man who's using this to improve himself. In that respect, Cameron's strategy is self-defeating.
Looking at Jack Straw, I saw a man who looked quite patriarchal and self-assured. He's a capable and loyal man and, I'm sure, his advice and support is valued by the Prime Minister. Contast this to Osbourne's pinched sincerity and lack of reflection on the big picture.
The difference between Labour and opposition benches was just as stark. Regardless of the polls, the Labour party looked quite keen and relaxed, almost happy. The Tories were just a bundle of brooding funk.
I used to think Peter Hain was a bit of a duffer but his article was almost pure Zen. Clearly, he's siezed noble purpose where the Tories have already forgotten the Kaftan and incense message Cameron so breathlessley brought back from Asia only a few short months ago.
You do what you are. The rest is wind.
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Lowest poll ratings in eighty years? He should try harder.
Oh, he is doing but it's still not working.
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#121 10 cents To be a good politician, you need to be a good salesman, you need to be able to sell your ideas. your policies your persona.
Cameron has very little persona and and even less policies, hence Shallow Salesman.
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#121 10 cents To be a good politician, you need to be a good salesman, you need to be able to sell your ideas. your policies your persona.
Cameron has very little persona and even less policies, hence Shallow Salesman.
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Some posters ask what will be the sort of issues that Cameron and the incoming Tories will have to deal with in 2010.
By the autumn, I would guess that the #1 issue will be the outcome of the Scottish referendum.
That will have to involve an amicable parting of the ways between England and Scotland.
I do not think it will be too difficult from the legal and economic perspectives i.e. Scotland has always maintained its own legal system, which is very helpful, North Sea oil in the British sectors were parcelled out between England and Scotland at the outset of exploration.
The main problem will be the political upheaval because there will be an outburst of wailing from certain parts of Westminster as some politicians realise that they are effectively redundant as political Britain starts to evaporate.
There will be the EU factor, broadly speaking the EU political hierarchy likes 'small' as in 'Europe of the regions' so I expect they will accommodate these changes of national status with grace.
Once all that is sorted out, Cameron and the Tories will be left in too powerful a position for the long-term health of England, so I would hope that what are currently tiny political entities in England such as the English Democrats will grow significantly.
Even the Lib-Dem's might prosper.
The economy will have to be 'recovered' from the dying days of the NL administration, but happily for Cameroon, that would probably be about happen anyway in 2010/2011 as a new economic cycle begins (no Gordon did not abolish it).
I would also hope that Cameroon and the Tories will finally realise that the empire really is over and that serious efforts are made to create an effective EU military wing ... it has got embarrassing now with the various multitudinous military 'cock-ups' that have emanated from the Government and MoD, that sadly diminish our forces.
We cannot play that game any more and have to build an effective EU military.
Just a few ideas going forward.
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Brown was riding high for years due to the fact he was chancellor during a period of sustained global growth. Th eproblem is that time has gone, and it's a situation like this that sorts the men from the boys. You simply cannot argue with the fact that Brown is generally unliked by the populace, he has no endearing features - no spark, no dynamism, when he speaks he lectures - when he makes an effort to appear 'in touch' it makes me cringe. His performance at the despatch box is, in my opinion, pathetic. We need a change.
Whoever we vote into power, I believe that after 2 terms a government become complacent, out of touch and remote. A period in opposition and some fresh ideas and faces can be nothing but a good thing for the country.
We are taxed more than ever, spied on more than ever, rules and regulations dominate everything we do. Nulabours answer to just about everthing is to create a quango or a consultation group - get real ... for the majority of issues we know what to do - we just need leaders who will do it!
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Well, all that looks like the reverse of the Brown doctrine. The Prime Minister's drive to build self-confidence and sociability will unify Britain, expand the economic sweet-spot further, and reduce the need for over-bearing military investment.
If the worst comes to the worst the Prime Minister can sneak into the basement of No 10 and put on his nuclear bomb proof suit, carve Mount Everest from the ground with the laser hidden in his blind eye, and drop it on the scowlers heads.
Hah!
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#129 I agree that the Scottish separation will be the #1 issue.
I strongly disagree that we are anything like prepared. If they don't have functioning IT systems to pick up tax revenues etc its going to be a nightmare and the "new relationship" will be poisoned. What happens to EU contributions? If we can't resite the new Trident subs that we have agreed to pay for do we scrap them? Do we divvy up the army and would it be right to expel Scottish members of the British army? Will the number of people going offshore for tax purposes rocket as many Scots live and work in Scotland and vice a versa. They will be able to do that I think. If Scotland goes and is a success will Wales follow. But then what of NI - will the peace process be enhanced or derailed if the Unionists see the prospects of a united Ireland growing?
You don't separate two countries that have been together for hundreds of years with a plan made on a fag packet in Parliament the night before.
I think that people in the UK will have something of an inquest about why the UK broke up. New Labour will get a bashing - but Mrs. T started the rot in Scotland for sure.
I would like to think people in England will start to rethink things afresh. Do we need the monarchy? Is it not time for a written constitution?
Meanwhile our leaders sleepwalk us towards the cliff edge.
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Much is always made of Nick Robinson's past, and very dubious it is too!
But on this occassion, I think we should observe his passing interests in the political party formerly known as the Conservative Party.
As a life long die-hard, died in the wool Labour Party supporter (new, old, indifferent, it doesn't matter) I have to say I have no problem with a Political Editor not coming up to scrub and being wayward in his (former) alliegience.
You see, Politics is much simpler than passing observers may realise.
Inside every Conservative in this Country, there is a Socialist waiting to jump out.
Dave'heir to Blair'Cameron says it all.
This is common sense and the BBC knows it to be true.
So come on, give Nick a break. He once was, but now he isn't. He's one of us now.
And I commend it to blogs everywhere.
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Inside every Conservative in this country is a desire to drub NewLabour to the opposition benches in perpetuity for their utter hubris about the economy; their unfair treatment of the poor on the 10p tax charge and VED; their dull and dithering loser for a leader; their vacuity of an agenda for the country; the trillings of Cooper, Harmann and the other Blair babes.
Inside every Conservative in this country is a desire is someone who is sick to deathof being lectured to about things they took for granted a decade ago, like the common civility and good manners that are so absent form the NewLabour estuary English speaking flakes who pupporut to be in power but ceaselessly cave in to thir own people.
Inside every Conservative in the country is someone who will work hard to ensure the Crewe and Nantwich result of third place for NewLabour is reapeated on a general election.
Inside every Conservative in this country is someone who believes all of the above to be possible because we just did it in London and kicked out a corrupt NewLabour Mayor.
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Never mind Cheer up!
Things can only get better!
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
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That's interesting. The more you cling to the poll results the more it will hurt when they swing in a way you don't like. Really, it's better just to let go.
For similar reasons, Cameron's Bullingdon bully routine is misguided. Indeed, every time he pulls it the Prime Minister becomes more supple and joyous.
The Conservative ego has really neatly boxed itself in. It can't go forwards and the inner fear they project on the poor will start chewing them up as they slide. Ouch.
The Tao is the path of no effort. *yawn*
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#131: Chuck_e_hogwash
I could easily say "It looks like we live in different worlds".
But thats an understatement - We live on different planets.
Mine is called Earth, whats yours called?
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Bullingdon bully will turn out to be as useful to the Tories as Tory Toffs in Crewe and Nantwich.
The inner fear projected on the poor by NewLabour constantly undermining them with stealth taxes (VED) and sudden axing of the 10p tax band is quite enough to put me off thinking about voting Labour ever again.
NewLabour, NewDoubleSpeak
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Perspective, dear.
It's a Zen thing.
Politics doesn't need any more trained seals.
It's a *drumroll* Zen thing.
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Inside every Conservative is a Neil Hamilton waiting to jump out.
I commend Social Justice to the Conservative MEP Group.
Inspector Yates has been informed.
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# 132
I will attempt to answer some of your questions:
Regarding taxes, the Scots already raise their own taxes - I am sure they will handle that ok.
Regarding the tax system in England - even accountants get headaches trying to deal with it - it needs drastically simplifying and made more honest - i.e. Income Tax and NI should be merged into one tax.
The English Government needs to recognise that until a fully federated supra-tax system is applied EU wide, then we English will be in competition with neighbours such as Ireland for business, so tax rates must reflect that reality (same goes for fuel taxes).
You asked what happens to EU contributions?
Any English Government with an ounce of courage would forthwith refuse to pay any more monies over to the EU UNTIL THE ACCOUNTS ARE AUDITED.
I rarely 'shout' on the web but these year-after-year unaudited EU accounts are gross and indefensible.
You said if we can't resite the new Trident subs that we have agreed to pay for do we scrap them?
I think Devonport is suitable for these subs, the bigger question is why we have not been good Europeans and invited other EU countries to support the Trident programme and spread the huge cost.
You said do we divvy up the army and would it be right to expel Scottish members of the British army?
I would say that we should put together a properly integrated EU Armed Forces, which of course, would include citizens from all EU member countries.
You ask will the number of people going offshore for tax purposes rocket as many Scots live and work in Scotland and vice a versa.
I do not quite understand what you mean by this ... Scots usually love their country with a passion and would not necessarily leave for tax reasons.
You ask .. but then what of Northern Ireland (NI) - will the peace process be enhanced or derailed if the Unionists see the prospects of a united Ireland growing?
For the English, this (NI) has been one hell of an expensive mess and we should now leave them to get on with it.
You ask ... do we need the monarchy?
Of course we do not ... but the people seem to like the idea of the monarchy for some reason that totally eludes me.
The usual reason given is that if it was not the Royal Family then it would be some politician - which people find a very unattractive option.
You ask ... is it not time for a written constitution?
Yes - people have lost trust in Government and do now need this.
Hope this answers some of your questions.
You might agree with some of this and wonder why it does not happen already and I think the answer to that is not 'dark forces which we know nothing about' but simply political cowardice.
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I agree, simplification of the law and tax is overdue. Jack Straw is leaning towards evolution on constitutional issues but the government has been refactoring law. Tax is always difficult as vested interests scream but I'm pretty sure there's equal scope.
Political cowardice? Perhaps there's some but you've complained elsewhere of an authoritarian government. I'm not going to make an issue of that but it's something on the table for everyone to reflect on. Developing positive consensus is always useful.
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If anyone is having trouble sleeping. then this thing is available in full on the internet. It really was awful.
They are going to stop crime by telling parents how to look after their children. Nanny state? state interference?
Someone 'spontanously' asked a very detailed researched question and cameron answered in a rehearsed and detailed way.
Then their was the human rights act which they want rid of because they dont want to give take aways to prisoners protesting on prison roofs. I'm sure there are more serious things that this could effect than this Daily Mail example.
the questions were rehearsed. nobody shouted in disagreement. as they probably would if this was impartial. And cameron sounded rehearsed even his 'ad libs' like he knew what all the questions where. Somebody on here suggests that this video will change Nicks mind. Maybe they should stop digging.
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I had a look and it was pretty ghastly. "Dave" drifted between powerpoint presentation and hip socialworker. His material and answers were wrong on so many levels it's not funny. The British don't do leadership or communication, and "Dave" is no different. He's geared to meetings and the TV studio but can't run with the ball in the field.
The first question was such a plant, and "Dave's" reply was so pre-cooked it didn't do anyone any favours. I gave it some time but clicked off as "Dave" was rolling through the second question. I'm no big fan of "Old England" types or dogwhistle answers. It just smacks of yesterday and knee-jerk, lad magazines, and white van man.
That's very critical, but I can see where people are coming from. People have their ambitions and allegiances however mistaken or poorly executed they are. I like beautiful things, good friends, and know Rome wasn't built in a day, which is why I'll stick with Gordon Brown for now. The Brown Doctrine matches my own view. That'll do, er, Shep.
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# 142
It is extremely hard to be totally consistent, I but try.
I have felt unease about certain legislation right from the start.
For example, RIPA, which turned out to be a correct instinct, as a council in Poole, Dorset used it to snoop on a couple and their child.
Not at all what was intended.
In my opinion, English people need to worry more about the 'enemy within' {Government} than people hiding in caves in the Pakistani tribal lands.
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Please if anyone is having trouble sleeping do not watch the cameron direct on the internet like I said dhwilkinson@143.
If this does send you to sleep, Post hypnotic suggestion, Like you might use to learn a foreign language May lead you to believe this rubbish.
If you want to see how bad it was, drink plenty of coffee beforehand.
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Glad to see The Speaker stepped in on Cameron during PMQ's - finally.
The process whereby Cameron gives a "witty review" of the PM's answer before asking his next question has been taking up more and more time. Michael Martin finally told DC to "get on with it" this week. Wednesday is reserved for Prime Minister's Questions not the Review of the Week by the Leader of the Opposition.
Cameron has been shown too much lattitude by Speaker Martin. The same intervention needs to take place on an ongoing basis going forward.
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147:
Wednesday is reserved for Prime Minister's Questions not the Review of the Week by the Leader of the Opposition.
Cameron has been shown too much lattitude by Speaker Martin. The same intervention needs to take place on an ongoing basis going forward.
If we accept this as a rule and why not then the back slapping, self congratulatory questions posed by The Labour benches and heavily weighted in the Government's favour should then also be curtailed.
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Mutleyspup @148 - Agreed!
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I would like to make a couple of points as someone who was at the meeting from start to finish and helped take the nearly 700 phone calls received requesting tickets.
#77 tickets were FREE on a first come first served basis. Conservatives members had no more advance warning than any other member of the public. They found out at the same time it came out in the local papers.I turned down a conservative activist of 40 years because all the seats were taken. I have the spread sheet with all 200 names and address as definitive proof.
#78 In answer to your question did he answer them? YES he did.
I would like to assure all the doubters that there were only a handful of Conservatives in a large open public meeting. Perhaps Nick would like to show the unedited version and let people see the non Tory voters he spoke to.
As for the comment posted about someone from UKIP being turned away, I was on the door with the clipboard and at no time did anyone get turned away for any other reason than that their name was not on the list of names of people who had pre booked their seat. David Cameron had no idea of the questions he was going to be asked and gave straight honest answers on the spot and because he was genuine and sincere he has proved all the non Conservatives voters wrong and thats what they dont like
I would just like to add that you need to watch the answer he gave on the referendum to get the facts right he never said that he wouldnt give it to us, he said it would be hard not that he wouldnt.
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dhwilkinson wrote:
'Please if anyone is having trouble sleeping do not watch the cameron direct on the internet like I said dhwilkinson@143.
If this does send you to sleep, Post hypnotic suggestion, Like you might use to learn a foreign language May lead you to believe this rubbish.
If you want to see how bad it was, drink plenty of coffee beforehand.'
Not even a large dose of adrenalin would be enough to wake me up during one of GB's dour eulogies. I'm sorry but you lay yourself open to this kind of response. There is just no comparison between the two. Just my opinion of course.
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151 Mutleyspup
"Not even a large dose of adrenalin would be enough to wake me up during one of GB's dour eulogies. I'm sorry but you lay yourself open to this kind of response. There is just no comparison between the two. Just my opinion of course."
I don't really lay my self open to this kind of response. I don't claim Gordon Brown is a fresh new exciting era in politics like the Conservatives claim for the really bad Blair impersonator Cameron.
Are we supposed to be impressed with him taking his jacket off? It was like some kind of weird variety act. Did you watch this so called 'spontaneous' q and a session with the public on the internet?
All politicians are boring! Cameron is definitely no exception. I think his alleged charisma is overrated.
As for the referendum. He said it would be difficult if it had already been ratified. politician speak for there won't and that he doesn't really care as long as he can blame Labour.
The European social chapter and the Human rights act are the only things that the 'Nice' Conservatives care about getting rid of. If he tricks a few xenophobes and wannabes into voting for him that's just a bonus.
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152;
You are of course entitled to your view but if you attack Cameron for his boring, gimmicky presentation then you must in turn defend GB for his riveting style in front of the despatch box and the camera and you haven't.
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# 151 mutleyspup, you say "left yourself open" well I am afraid that it would take a large dose of adrenalin to wake you up to anything thats going on in this country.
Your euphemism not mine.
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mutleyspup@153
I don't have to defend anyone! I don't expect politicians to be entertaining. If you do, then you must be very easily pleased and will think that this town hall amateur dramatics performance was an absolute triumph.
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We'll agree to differ on style. Let's then stick to the Government's record and its policies and leave DC out of it. He isn't in office and isn't likely to be for two years of eaked out rule by The present encumbents.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
157 Thankyyou D H Wilkinson. I am glad that some one has realised that I am being constantly moderated as is kiwilegs, since we are probably the most vociferious of the Labour supporters it does tend to point the finger at certain Tories particularly those that appear to gain great pleasure from other peoples posts being moderated.
If I mention names it will go to the moderater in fact the way its been going this will anyway.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
# 159 muttleyspup Once again your rather strange defence of the moderater throws suspicion on you, you seem to have a knowledge of the moderaters that has been denied to the rest of us. I know of no one who has attempted to harras the moderaters,neither you nor I have any idea whether they are swayed by a political leaning, only an intimate knowledge of the moderater could tell you that.
If every post that contained a dig at another post was removed I'm afraid that this and every other blog would die the death.
The moderater uses information sent to them to ascertain whether a post is appropriate or not and it seems that upon recieving a complaint ,the post is removed immediately, some times it is returned as in 154 but mostly not, you say addresses the thread ,this post 159 has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread, so why was'nt it removed. this post of mine is in answer to you, who seems to have taken over the mantle of being the moderaters champion. if this post is removed, we will know that there is something wrong as it is merely my opinion of what is the role of the moderater in the same way as yours is post 159.
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# Ive been away for a few hour and I return to see that the moderaters who appeared to have come to their senses earlier in the day have been having a field day on two of the blogs, I dont suppose you work shift work do you only the rate of referral to the moderaters seems to be a bit erratic, pehaps tommorow morning we'll have a more moderate moderater.
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# 160 this post has been removed why? if you read the post you will find that it is in reply to 159 muttleyspup in which he suggests that he is quite familiar with you and knows exactly what your supposed to moderate he mentions that you have to stick to the thread , well its patently obvious that his post159 has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread. you have given him carte blanch to instruct everyone else on how to conduct themselves which is not in his remit yet you have not made any attempt to remove his post. Yet when I reply to him giving my take on the action of the moderater and indeed point out that I am only offering an opinion in the same way as he is my post is removed I suspect once again by a complaint from this individual whose spite and lack of backbone is destroying these blogs by creating more and more frustration, I think that the time has come to clamp down on these complainers before many people leave these blogs there was plenty of serious but good natured posts but now through frustration caused by spiteful backbiting removing of innumerable posts people are becoming angry.by all means remove posts that go beyond reasonable response thats to be expected, a few weeks ago it was only the odd post that was removed but if you look at todays crop it has become absurd. please stop it so that we can get back to what was good humoured posts and reasoned argument.
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What is the point of having a moderated discussion if the moderators are continually moderating what they already moderated, after the fact.
If they cannot recognise a breach of the rules before they put it onto the screen - well, by the time it makes it there it has received their approval.
So by the time a breach of the house rules has been displayed and subsequently removed it is surely time to get a new moderator
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