Burnham's big splash
The cabinet sports supremo has made quite a splash with the big idea unveiled this morning. Andy Burnham learned at the knee of the previous culture and sport secretary Chris Smith who drove through with a lot of ideas of free admissions to museums and art galleries.
Burnham learned that he had to overcome Whitehall's resistance, the scepticism of many about whether it was a waste of money, and to have confidence that making something free would massively increase participation. He was inspired once again by the fact that the Tories' culture spokesman eventually lost his job by daring to suggest that museums might charge once again.
Burnham's hope that this initiative would increase participation in sport, will help to tackle the nation's obesity problem, and it's also a practical big idea that the government needs to restore its flagging fortunes. If it worked it may well help his fortunes too.
UPDATE, 02:00PM: Who swam for free first? Much debate about whose idea free swimming really is. One minute I hear that in Wales there's been free swimming for old and young alike for some time. Next I'm told that Tory-controlled Westminster council offered free swimming for the under-16s after school some years ago. Any more offers?
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As the Labour party is highly unlikely to be in power by 2012, this could be viewed as a meaningless gesture unless the Conservatives sign up for it too. And couldn't it stop new swimming pools being built?
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And this is supposed to get voters flocking back to Labour is it? How about they concentrate on the issues that really affect people such as their unfair car tax increases rather than wasting yet more millions on minor diversionary issues?! If people want to use swimming pools they can pay for them!
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Dear Nick,
What a damned good idea to get everybody to swim, "is he trying to tell us something only labour know about, who's about to abandon a sinking ship"? , problably the entire British race, as the Island sinks under the weight of labour "criminal" immigration policy, Politicians will be the first into the Life Boats, by buying a ticket BEFORE, women and children. "out of expenses."?
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A typical NewLabour non event.
Can I claim it back on tax credits if I decide not to take up the government's kind offer?
Can I ask for taper relief on my next pair of swimmers?
Do I get a tax credit for my hot bovril after the swim?
Can I sue the government if I get a foot infection from swimming?
If I bang my head on the diving board is there a no win no fee claims hotline being set up by the government?
Welcome to the Soviet Socialist Republic of NuBriittania.
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Good idea, I'll use it. This is the kind of straight forward policy initiative that people want from the government.
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I think it is an excellent idea 'free' which must be extended to, for example, .. free parking ... in hospitals and railway car parks.
'Freedom' where there is no price to pay at the point-of-use is a great idea, up to a point.
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Great idea.
Free museums, free sports facilities excellent stuff.
Too little, too late though.
Unfortunately Labours record in government is appalliing. They have sprayed Billions of money around and we've got little value for money.
This initiative won't save Labour - they deserve to go. I'm surprised that people haven't taken to the streets to oust this government - maybe that is only just around the corner........
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The car tax increases will be paying for the free swim. NOTHING is free...so when this Government pull a stunt like this it is the tax payers who stump up...NOT Mr Brown. I prefer to keep my tax money and if / when I fancy a swim I will pay. Unbelievable actions by this government!!!!
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Been free for the over sixties in Glasgow for the last two or three years.
The chap is just pinching other peoples ideas.
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Swimming Pools and Playing Fields are being, respectively, knocked down and ripped up all over the country. These people do not inhabit the real world.
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Hope there's a decent pool nearby, there certainly isn't where I am. Perhaps it's all a ploy to let those not wanting to sink with New labour to at least swim with them.
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There are no public pools left for us to enjoy for free (which only means you pay bigger council tax, whether you use the pool or not anyway). I live in the City Centre and the City Pool is a disgrace, it's smelly, dirty, cold, and a complete eyesore (starting with the sign over the door which has read CITY POO for years now). When I lived in Australia there was a sports ground with an Olympic sized swimming pool, fields for both cricket and football (with nets) a restaurant, paddling pool, heated child pool, spectator stands, huge changing facilities that were both warm and clean, and where you didn?t have to play "Guess That Smell" all for AU¢20 (9 pence!!). For the amount of money being spent on the Olympics, the whole country could have benefited from free, world standard sports facilities in every town and city.
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With all the big problems and issues on the go - this is a big, idea ??
And practical ? What happens if there is a big take up when (if!?!) it rolls out ? What's the betting that there won't be enough pool capacity to cope ?
What about local authority fitness facilties, the fee for which incoporates swimming ?
Bureaucracy beckons. Oh well, at least it's there is no intention to means test it - yet.
Link to the Olympics - spurious or what ?
First - it is an England only initiative sitting along side a British Olympic event and team
Second - why over 60s as the place to start a bid increase sporting activity before 2012 ?
This is a headline seeking missile of mass distraction.
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After Labour doubled the tax on the poor, raided my pension funds, whilst gold-plating their own, mired the country in massive debt, started illegal wars based on lies, corrupted our education, straight-jacketed our police with PC (you cannot chase the minorities) backwards racism, leaving our streets to the ferral youths to run amok. broke our armed forces, gave our law giving capacity to Brussels, via the Lisbon Treaty and drove our nation to the brink of complete destruction, you know, the idea of a free swim will really make me vote labour. NOT!
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Gosh. Lucky old England. Our cup runneth over.
Not quite as good as free prescriptions or free care for the Elderly though is it?
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Good thinking. Healthy people are more productive and less expensive on the health services. Healthy people are also happier. But I hope the recent heavy rainfall and flash floods have not inspired this initiative. I live near a river and much as I enjoy swimming I don't fancy swimming home on a regular basis.
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Hmmm... I think if I'd wanted to go swimming I'd have gone anyway. But that's me. Still this does all have the air of a bright idea that chucks social and health and inclusivity issues and what not into the same pot, in the typically unfocused way that has made one rather cynical.
Something like a national tariff of concessions (including zero charges) might have been a nifty bit of management that could do good, but this measure is a bit sweeping, a bit gestural and as posters are pointing out more than a tad costly in the context of pressing needs elsewhere.
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Free swimming is a nice idea, but at the moment the country needs the money for more pressing things, like allowing its people to have enough money to feed itself and so that people can get to work without going bankrupt.
This'll cost a fortune to the tax payers, and drive leisure centres out of business when they find that they have to give free access to people but they only get paid a fraction from the government of what it costs to run the pool.
It'll be the same as the free bus pass idea; a nice thought but not backed up with enough money for it to be viable; it'll just drive people out of business. And if it was backed up with enough money then there'd be such a gaping hole in public finances that we'd have to save money somewhere else more important.
The biggest national debt we've ever had, in the middle of a massive recession, no tax revenue put aside as a buffer, nobody can afford to go anywhere, growing unemployment, nobody can get a mortgage, and they announce something like this. Are they completely mad?
They've truly lost the plot.
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It isn't cost that stops me swimming as much as I would like - I have the sea on my door step.
What stops me taking more exercise is the fact I have to work all hours to pay all the stealth taxes, and save to replace my stolen pension.
Cut taxes, I can cut my hours, and I can get away from my desk and computer occasionally.
The government spending my money for me on stupid frivolities means I have to work all the harder to earn it, and have all the less time to benefit from it.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
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# 12
Does have a point, especially with respect to Australia, which is a place that I have visited.
This is something I've pondered over for a long time.
Starting way, way back when I was a child and local people were living in Nissen huts on the common.
For some reason, English people have never taken wholeheartedly to 'communal' services when provided by 'the authorities'.
It is a bit of a puzzle, but might be partly historic, in being class-based, e.g. Council Houses were provided but the people living in them tended to be 'looked down upon'.
Not by my family I hasten to add, our situation was even more precarious, being totally dependent upon the whims of the local feudal Tory MP/landlord.
Things have improved a lot in England since those far off days, but there are obviously places such as where #12 lives, where the local authorities, by definition, do not appear to care very much about their community.
They, if asked, will almost certainly respond .. .we are controlled from 'the centre' ... i.e. Central Government, especially regarding funding and so our hands are tied.
This is the usual reason my local authority uses when people complain about a lack of facilities.
I have long suspected that both Labour and the Tories have been misusing taxpayers funds by redirecting them to their favoured client groups, often marginal constituencies.
We English simply need to regain proper control of our country, then we can deal with these matters.
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re: posting 7
I'm surprised too; I've never gone on a demonstration before, but if such a march on parliament happened I'd be in there no question.
2 years is a long time to wait for the next election; I think the proven negligence and lies and the pending anti-freedom laws mean that we all have a duty to gang up against them and physically kick them out of the building before that 2 years is up and force an immediate general election. (having an unelected dictator in charge doesn't help them either).
count me in!
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A good tactic by Burnham to grab the headlines and position himself as a successor to the Clunking Fist, especially when he knows there isn't a snowflake's chance in hell that it will come to pass due to Labour's impending immolation. What else does Andy do when he's in the office?
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What really irks me about this is the way it's being spun as a "legacy of the 2012 Olympics". It has absolutely nothing to do with the 2012 Olympics. Swimming could be made free perfectly easily even if there were no Olympics. And if there were no Olympics, there would be an extra 9 billion quid to pay for it, as well. I imagine you could build quite a few new swimming pools for that.
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#purpledogzzz 14 What a sad outlook you have on life, while the rest of us are enjoying the many good things in life, now added to that free swimming. You must be a joy to be around with all the many complaints you have against the government ,some real some imaginary. I cant see what fun you get, unless your pleasure is waiting for any move by labour good bad or reasonably good so that you can use it to further your pleasure. I can I think assure you that you would not be welcome in the labour party and I doubt that with your miserable outlook on life in Britain not in any other party.
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What a great idea. Now all we need is for councils to stop closing swimming pools!
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Surely though any service free at the point of delivery has to be paid for some how, yest people in the UK still want low taxes and high quality (free) services. The maths don't work!
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Why are most of the posts on this blog condemning the free swimming, does that mean that they did'nt approve of free musuems either, why cant they accept that thousands, or perhaps millions of people will get a lot of pleasure from this move. I guess many of those complaining are non swimmers or perhaps like myself to old to take advantage of this, that does'nt stop me from being really pleased that others will get pleasure from a weekly swim in the safety of a pool. For goodness sake stop picking holes in every thing Labour does. You say they dont do this or that and then they do something that I would have thought pleased everybody but no, the lets trash Labour brigade are back at it . If you want to pick holes have a go at the son of that great man Sir Francis Chichester, or is that going to be swept under the carpet.
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Blimey, are the government drunk? What the hell are they talking about? I just spent 50 quid to fill up a Fiat Punto and they're offering free swimming?
"... people want to know we're listening..." Yes people do indeed, yet the message coming back from Whitehall is barmy.
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#26 - don't peddle the bogus line about the public wanting 'good public services'; and also wanting low taxes.
If people want anything it is 'good value public services'.
Leave the money in peoples pockets and they can choose whether they want to swim or not.
Opaque monopolies deliver services inefficiently. And that is what the state specialise in - Inefficient opaque monopolies.
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free swimming is a great idea, shame that they arent making swimming lessons compulsary to all children as its one of the very few things at school that would actually help save a childs life.
My folks, who really enjoy swimming will be very happy.
Free Museums, Free Swimming (well to no one but the over 60's for a while) and Sure Start
Thats three very good things.
Unfortuantely the economic mess, Northern Rock, Cash for Peerages, 10p tax and this vehicle excise duty con out weighs them considerably unfortunately.
Can someone explain to me how retrospectively raising Vehicle tax will be environentally friendly? If you cant afford the vehicle tax, you're unlikely to be able to afford to buy a new car
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comment 9 - How has it worked in Glasgow, i.e. takeup amongst over 60s?
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This is a huge lost opportunity for NuLabour to demonstrate its true understanding of Joined Up Government. They could have used this initiative to
* Promote ID cards as the only way to provide free access while maintaining the highest levels of poolside securty
* Trial lane charging systems to control peak time usage, in preparation for the next tax on motorists
* Impose 42 day detention without trial for under-age swimmers trying to impersonate over-60s.
* Introduce new regulations to replace chorine in with a new chemical that destroys knives hidden inside swimming trunks.
Oops I forgot. Joined Up Government was a Blairite policy. Beanites don't do policies...
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# 26
Re: 'the maths don't work'.
For politicians the maths work perfectly, in the sense that the political answer can be skewed to deal with the situation in hand.
For example, as you state 'You want some service or facility for free? Well, we don't have the money and would have to put up taxes etc'.
However, for a marginal constituency or to keep some client group e.g. the Northern Irish pacified ... new sports/communal centre? No problem, we will 'find' the money.'
Do not ever believe them when they say they 'do not have the money'.
Right now, for example, I suspect that they are bank-rolling the whole financial system in the UK and you don't get a bigger 'spend' than that.
Government extract more than enough money from English people and businesses.
They do waste stupendous amounts of that money ... but that is a different issue.
Bottom line ... the maths always work if the political situation at hand demands it.
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purpledogzzz@14
or is it "wolfie smith"?
A few days ago you were ranting on about Gordon Brown being a bookburning fascist.(Premier performance purpledogzz@72 if anyones interested).
In this post you accuse him of being a PC liberal who can't keep order on the streets.
Good luck with revolution!
__
Back on the subject a good Idea, when it comes to the health service, prevention is much better than cure. Does it really matter why it is being announced if it is a good thing.
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It's a bit late surely to start tarting up the Olympic project with the myth that we're (you're/they're - I'm in Scotland) such a dashed sporty lot. One wonders what Phase 2 is going to be. Hide fat kids down old mineshafts? Introduce a blood-pressure tax? Take the logos off the fag packets? Ah.......
Yes, well, now we know.....
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# 7/ 21Johnathan Cook, Getridofgordonnow.
I think that neither of you have any Idea of what people in this country think, no more than I or any body else, the General election when our absolutely legal Prime minister Gordon Brown decides when there will be an election he will tell us you are behaving like a couple of school kids. Just because you won a by election you think that the whole country have turned to the Tories for sucour, but you wrong there are already signs that the tide is turning. Now that the feeding frenzy of the press against GB is fading they are starting to take a closer look at Cameron and have began to realise there is no substance there. They have already sussed out Gideon Osbourne and without those two what other new faces have they got. I'm afraid if you were ever stupid enough to march you will find that you would be walking into a wall of Labour voters who are not going to put up with all this bile and spite for much longer.
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How about the one thing that really matters;
FREEDOM
Something that costs nothing but this motley crew are determined to fight tooth an nail to remove from the citizens of this country just as fast as it can.
Free bus passes; councils reduce the number of buses.
Free swimming; councils will close the swimming baths.
"Free" prescriptions; this Government will restrict the drugs you can have then not allow you to use the NHS if you pay for them yourselves (even if the same drug is available for "free" in Scotland".
FREEDOM is something that we should not allow the government to take away and worth more to us all that a free "wash and spin". They really don't get it.
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This is fantastic news, but it is all very well providing free swimming but where will these people have learnt to swim? If they aren't competent in the water this will put pressure on the lifeguards and other centre staff. Some children are only taught to swim at school and some aren't even lucky enough to get that, we need to make sure people are able to access the basic skills before we allow them to jump in the water. More commitment to swimming in schools and family sessions is where some of the money needs to go.
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talking of the NHS - thanks to Good Hope Hospital's Casualty and Fracture clinic.
Havent got a bad t hing to say about them, appointment for 10:15, seen at 10:17, an outrage :) especially considering I damaged myself on Wednesday.
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So this is the Brown fight-back.
Burnham (another of the "never-known-anything-apart-from-politics" wunderkind) will have the old, then the young, then all of us swimming for free. (Well those able to access a pool.)
It does raise one or two issuettes.
If this is part of the proposed "Olympic legacy", is the money coming from the billions in funds already designated to cover the Games? A sort of early cash-back payment to sweeten the soaring cost of the Games?
If people live miles away from a decent pool, can they claim back the cost of travel to those locations? With our present transport provision, there will be plenty of folk who could spend half a day getting to a pool.
With all of us able to gain free access, the numbers will no doubt rise. Will Burnham provide funds for new systems, so that pool management can "pre-book" individual visits, to avoid overcrowding and ensure that people have a reasonable chance of a quick dip?
I am all in favour of encouraging activity. And support the idea of the London Olympics. (Although appalled by the financial ineptitude of the Blair/Brown combo who allowed completely misleading estimates to be put in from of the IOC and tax-payers. Having said which, doubling or tripling costs seems to be the norm for this Government.)
I recall Blair playing head-football with Kevin Keagan, to demonstrate his youthful exuberance, his enjoyment of sport and commitment to the young. Just how many school playing fields have been sold off over the last 11 years? And how many children have therefore been deprived of the possibility of popping out for a variety of sports?
If each individual gained (say) UKL80,000 p.a., then for 600 MPs, the cost of their expenses would be around UKL 48Million.
So Burnham thinks that this great leap forward should cost about as much as we are charged to keep MPs in the style to which they are quite obviously accustomed.
Big deal.
It won't even count as a rounding error in terms of Government expenditure.
Being fair, I have to welcome any effort to engage people with exercise. (Maybe a little hard labour for Ministers during the summer recess.)
All too often we get statements (which Ministers seem to equate with action).
Let's see what actually happens.
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Of course, all this initiative will do is create a two-tier swimming system.
Those who can afford to will pay to swim in a privately run pool with clean floors, lifeguards and working lockers. Those that cannot afford to pay will swim in council run facilities with algae on the walls and PCSO on duty who will issue ASBOs if someone gets splashed.
A Labour government will try to prevent this by taxing those who swim privately by tracking their swims using the latest satellite technologyand charging at 10p per length. Speedos and other elitist swim gear will be subject to 200% VAT.
Free swimming pools will have a maximum depth of 3.5inches as a Health and Safety measure to prevent drowning.
And so it goes on.
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Scott , the take up for the over sixties is good, if my husband and his mates are anything to go by.
It is a Glasgow city thing ,so those living in the leafy suburbs of Bearsden still have to pay as far as I'm aware.
I'm a landlubber myself, have never been attracted to water of the cool variety and without bubbles!
Scotstoun Sports Centre offer a variety of pastimes for the over 50s either free or at a reduced price and many a grey or bald head attends!
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re: Posting 36
you're entitled to your views, but I think you're in the minority with them and I think that'll be proved at the next general election if not before. If you can't see that the vast majority hate not just Brown but also labour for stealing and then wasting all our money and taking away our freedoms, then the only thing that'll convince you will be the result of the next election as no rational argument would sway you.
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36 Grandantidote
I am geniunely surprised people haven't taken to the streets to protest. The recent by-election is just a side show compared to the governments record since 1997.
If I think of their 'gold plated ' real achievements I'd go for Bank of England Independence, Peace in Ireland and the big wheel outside parliament. That is it.
Their other achievements seem hollow to me: No more boom and bust, minimum wage (1'000's of people are out there earning less), House of Lords refrom (botch job), Hospitals (zero change apart from you can die of MRSA), Schools (standards still slipping), Removal of Iraqi WMD's, Regional Parliaments (break up of the union).
I think that because they can't fix the things that matter, the government are focusing on the easy things - restricting peoples liberties: Smoking Ban, Fox hunting (not that I like hunting), 42 days, ID Cards, 1'000's of new crimes etc..
Can anyone think of any other 'gold plated' achievements of this Government????
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Well this little idea should keep all those oldies off the streets and it should keep their minds off the fact that their pension has been stolen and they can not afford to eat or live.
Well done Nu(Improved)Labour.
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From the press release...
"A new £140 million fund to boost sport and fitness through free swimming for the over 60s was announced by the Government today as part of a drive to get two million people more active by the London 2012 Olympics.
The fund, announced alongside a new strategy for sport in England, will encourage local authorities to open up nearly 1,600 publicly owned swimming pools free to over 60s. More than 10 million older people in England stand to benefit from the move.
It will also be used as a challenge fund to encourage local authorities to offer free swimming to under 16?s and to rejuvenate and maintain pools."
This £140 million fund appears to be a one off - who picks up the ongoing cost of the initiative, is the Government committed to providing future payments or will it come from the Council Tax?
Who will fund the under 16 swimming where this "challenge fund" encourages local authorities to offer free swimming to under 16's?
The words "challenge fund" and "encourage" suggest the expense, at least longer term, will fall to Council tax payers. Yet the government seem to be spinning it that whilst they are funding the over 60@s first, the under 16's will follow.
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#36
You're now the third choice party. If you think there has been a press feeding frenzy; wait unitl your candidate loses his deposit in Henley.
This is what your absolutely legal prime minister is facing next. And he knows it.
If he wants the respect of the 'British' he should step back immediately from the entire 42 day issue and preserve the freedoms for which our forebears fought and died.
As for the enormous quantities of calls and data being cited as the reason the police need these powers; have they never used the 'search' box on a computer? MI5 already has key words that are picked up on every one of our telephone calls.
Modern technology didn't just speed up for the criminals it speeded up for the prosecutors too. Use it please.
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This is exactly what the government should do as a matter of both policy and connecting with the electorate. It's simple, clear, and powerful; and practical and social. It gets attention in a goodway and is a great teaser for the Prime Minister's keynote later in the year.
Swimming is an excellent leisure activity, good for all over body fitness, and helps people reclaim public spaces. It ticks all the goals, teamwork, and long-term boxes. Why waste a fortune fixing damage when prevention can help avoid that damage in the first place?
Alternatives to swimming are walking and Tai-Chi. Both help calm the mind and gently boost physical fitness. The increase in personal happiness and long-term savings in healthcare is off the dial. Dog homes are currently bursting with people trying to offset the cost of running Chelsea tractors.
As for people who are moaning and arguing, all they're doing is getting themselves angry and adding to their risk of disease in later life. The Tory benches at PMQ's are the most miserable bunch I've seen in my life. Perhaps, they may like to take advantage of "joyous endeavor" instead of always busying their minds.
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43 GetridofGordonnow.The important words you use are "I think". I have no reason to believe that the vast majority of people hate GB or the rest of labour, Just because you Tories say they do repeatedly it does'nt make it so.
As I say one by election does'nt change a goverment as the old saying goes "one swallow does'nt make a summer"Followed by another "dont count your chickens before their hatched".why is it that you Tories think that your argument is rational and yet everyone else's argument is'nt.
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I'm really looking forward to Gordon Brown's offkey note speech.
Will it be preceeded by the pre-offkey note speech?
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I am a Tory through and through, blue to the core.
However, on this issue, Labour have done good. I don't care whose idea it was first, just so long as it gets put into practice.
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When I were a lad (late 70's/early 80's), my local council - Tameside, East Manchester, had a policy of giving free passes to any child who had completed the Gold level of the old (Bronze, Silver, Gold, Honours) swimming proficiency scheme. It was a brilliant idea, and a real incentive to learn lifelong and useful swimming skills. People value free things by what they cost, Tameside's scheme might have been free, but you had to earn your right to the free pass. And getting the Gold level at age 12, like I did, was far from easy.
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#47 RobinJD . do you realy think that Labour expect to win at Henly its been a safe seat for the Tories for years, why would they expect to win. Now that the clown has gone perhaps they will get a decent MP albeit a Tory.
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People tend to mirror each other so if someone projects hate, you tend to hate them, and so on. People higher in the hierarchy, like do-gooders, or from a different tribe, like some company, try to project images of success so you buy into it, or they try to project failure onto you if you catch them performing badly.
All parties and party members, and their friends and allies carry ego around. There's no needs to name names but where, say, Tories and the media drum up faux anger and spite it's just a power play or attempt to create headlines. This is what Zen Buddhism calls the tail wagging the dog. It's better just to let go.
People tend to agree with similar opinions to their own, and people with similar opinions tend to 'stick' to one another. A fight creates the illusion of leadership, and people are attracted to this. The whole bubble of 'truth' and 'popularity' expands until it's eaten up all the resources then collapses like the South Sea Bubble.
Chop wood, carry water. Left stroke, right stroke.
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Prescription drugs are not allowed free in Scotland - thats Wales your thinking of! Although the SNP administration is slowly lowering price toward adopting that policy in 2010 (following the example of Labour in Wales).
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I find the whole situation very amusing.
Economy going down, house reposessions up, petrol, gas and electricity at record prices, thousand of soldiers risking their lives in a war no one wanted and yet the best our 'Leader' can come up with is free swimming!!!
What a pathetic, cynical attempt Gordon.
And claiming it's an Olympic legacy is a load of tosh!!!
Forward 50 years... telling our grandkids... "we'll always remember the great olympics of 2012.. it was the same year we got to go to the swimmers for free!!!"
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There's no such thing as a 'free public service'.
Productive people pay for these services via taxation.
So, either the government will cut back an existing 'service' to pay for this scheme, or taxes will have to rise.
In this instance I believe this 'initiative' will be forgotten long before 2012. Pity we can't 'forget' the Olympic Games too....
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If you compare Labour's three election victories to to Apple's Panther, Tiger, and Leopard releases of OS X, I suppose, a list of the top 300 achievements would be an interesting read. (I guess that makes Gordon Brown's current leadership 'Snow Leopard', for those who keep up with these things.) Can't say I've been keeping track. Just being NOT TORY was good enough. Maybe, Labour should be clearer and more confident with promoting its added value.
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CEW
Surely the better analogy for Labour would be to compare them to Microsoft Vista.
They promise the earth but despite frequent booting they still wont work properly!
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Well, Labour's come a long way from Kinnock's 'Couger'. I guess, we're all just waiting to see what the big reveal is with Gordon's keynote. Could it be the *gasp* rumoured iPolicy?
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Nothing wrong with a free swim, but there are many other more urgent issues that need funding.
Why for example can't people with Alzheimer's get the medication they need? The drugs only cost £2.50 a day, but need to be taken as soon as possible. Although not a cure, it slows down the progression for many people.
This uncaring government has decided people can only have the medication once their condition has deteriorated to a more advanced stage - by which time much of the benefit has been lost.
Lack of care for the elderly in this country is a disgrace and a scandal.
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Nick,
There are lots of free opportunities for people to get fit. Likewise, anyone wanting to compete at a future Olympics should join a club, and campaign for more 50 metre pools. However, to trail this initiative as representing free swimming is just a typical con. Nothing provided by the government is free. Someone always has to pay. So if we look at this in another way, taxes will either have to go up, or cuts will have to be made in services elsewhere. Perhaps the bold Andy and his good for nothing boss would like to enlighten us as to how this will work in practice.
As for this being the great idea to save Labour, is it not in fact Gordon waving for help as he goes under for the third time?
Finally, for the posters on the blog discussing the fact that GB was not elected as PM by the electorate. When people highlight this fact, they are questioning his legitimacy, not suggesting that he is not legal. Please remember this, as I would hate to think that Brown might get arrested for not being legal.
All the best
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Re #36
"Their other achievements seem hollow to me: No more boom and bust, minimum wage (1'000's of people are out there earning less), House of Lords refrom (botch job), Hospitals (zero change apart from you can die of MRSA), Schools (standards still slipping), Removal of Iraqi WMD's, Regional Parliaments (break up of the union)."
At what point has any Tory government produced 11 years of low inflation, low interest rates and practically full employment? (Harold Macmillan anyone?) Under no circumstances do we have the return of boom and bust as we used to know it. The last 11 years are characterised by stable growth - the antitheses of "boom and Bust".
The minimum wage was opposed by the Conservatives without reservation.
The NHS and Education has been transformed and those working in it are all paid a decent wage too. This is a record to be proud of. It is record built by Gordon Brown a man of substance and intellect. It could never be achieved by Bullingdon Boy Dave and his cronies.
I have not mentioned Iraq and Devolution. Here you have a case. Were the Tories against the War in Iraq? Do they intend to repeal the creation of the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments? I know the Tories are waging a personal war against the Prime Minister. Other than that they have no agenda at all.
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re 63:
11 years of stable growth? That was an illusion created by 11 years of
overspending/waste of public money; the underlying fundamentals have been an increasing national debt (even during boom years) which now leaves us in a situation where there's a huge recession and no money left; the country is basically bankrupt.
The only time that waste was relatively small was in the early years when Brown stuck to Tory spending plans; thereafter the whole country started going to the wall.
All the "positive" aspects from the economy over the last 11 years have happened despite Gordon Brown/Labour, not because of him, and have mostly been a facade hiding the true nature of what was happening in the public finances.
We're now facing the cost of this because we're in a recession with no money left.
Any government could make things "appear" good for a few years, the problem is that they were creating a false economy that would inevitably end up crashing due to the national debt and mis-management and waste.
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#64: getridofgordonnow
You neglected to add that due to the policies you mention and the current state of the world economy that things are gonna get a hell of a lot worse before they start to improve.
Yep I agree, due to Mr Beans incompetence we are ill equiped to face the oncoming economic storm.
Oil now 139 dollars per barrel, predicted to rise to 150 dollars next month. Previously predicted to rise to 150 dollars by the end of the year.
But I, and others, can take solace in the fact that Mr Bean assures us that there will be no infalation, after all the rev counter is well and truly stuck at 3 percent.
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In principle I like the idea because I am retired although I would worry how it would be funded. There would also be the question of how it would be organised as many swimming pools cater for school groups who tend to take up numerous time slots.
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Is his the best that this NuTory Gov't can offer? wake me up when they're booted out zzzzzzzz
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The moderation here scares me a bit; why was posting 63 referred to the moderators? It was a benign/un-offensive posting as far as I could see.
I didn't agree with the arguments used in it, and it took a swipe at my posting and a couple of others, but they've still got a right to say it; if people aren't allowed to see both sides of the argument then what's the point of having a blog?
come on auntie beeb; play fair and reinstate it; I might not agree with what it said but it's not fair to block it.
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Can't remember what was in his comment but people definately need to knock off the trolling and flamebait. Discussion is fine but when people start trying to argue like amateur lawyers or use it as their personal social club things take a nose-dive.
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CEH - if you can't remember what was in my comment why the trolling jibe?
Sticking up for the PM's record when someone else has directly had a go is not trolling.
I recall making comments about growth and stability over the last 11 years and saying DC couldn't hope to match it. It was a direct response to #44.
I did call DC "Bullingdon Dave". Maybe that is too much for the House rules.
I suspect Gordon Brown has been called much worse by other bloggers though!
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When I mentioned 'free' parking in hospitals and railway stations earlier, it was because these charges exemplify a meaness towards the people that is breathtaking.
One, hospital parking charges - the people coming along to visit are relatives and friends of the sick and distressed.
Why on earth should they have to worry about finding change for some wretched machine in the hospital car park, when they are probably already very concerned about more pressing matters i.e. the patients they are visiting.
Two, railway car park charges, people are often very stressed by the time they get to the railway station and obviously do not want to miss their train.
Why should they have to waste time grubbing around for change for car parking machines, which are often not working anyhow.
It is the simple lack of humanity about these things, the venal money-grabbing (a variation of the politicians notorious 'co-payments' in the case of the hospitals car parking fees) that one despairs of.
All very un-English to my mind and hopefully to become just a bad memory when we English finally get our country back.
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Come on Nick, don't pretend to be naive, now!
Ask yourself this question - Who has been and still is in power since 1997?
Then you can answer who came up with and implemented the following.
Free bus tickets for the elderly
Discounted train tickets for the elderly.
Free TV licences for the elderly.
Help with heating bills for the elderly.
Free house insulation in Wales.
Free swimming in Wales.
Free prescriptions in Wales, now that's a lot.
Now, free swimming in England for over 60s.
Free swimming for all by 2012.
There's more Nick, but I am going out for a swim.
This is not to bring new blood to vote Labour, but simply for the well-being of us lazy buggers drinking beer and watching TV, but would it not be nice to ask boy Dave if he would keep all the above if we have the misfortune to have a cowboy for PM!
That wasn't too hard now, was it Nick? Good night Nick.
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NuLabournohope_2
Are you comparing Gordon Brown to Mr Bean like Vince Cable, Ontheperipheral and Nulabournohope did?
Does this mean that David Cameron is the driving the blue 3 wheel van?
Brown doesn't control the price of oil only the tax! if fuel tax is drastically cut. The difference will be made up quickly as the demand increases. You'll just end up paying extra profit instead of tax.
Get yourself a little green Mini to save the planet and help preserve our precious oil resources.
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At 6:15 pm on 06 Jun 2008, stephenni1971 wrote:
CEW
Surely the better analogy for Labour would be to compare them to Microsoft Vista.
They promise the earth but despite frequent booting they still wont work properly!
You can get a patch for Vista!
Good idea free swimming, IF you can find a pool that hasn't been closed by the local council.
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This is an ill thought out inatitive that will only have marginal success and be a waste of this money. It will even cost more unseen. Let me explain:
Find 10 friends that do not swim very often if at all. Ask them if the cost of a swim in the pool is the reason they do not swim. I guarantee very few will say yes.
Swimming in England is already good value for money. People do not swim because they are not motivated to. All this will do is give free swimming to people already swimming. In turn this will further reduce income for local centres therefore costing even more money than stated.
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No, the problem here is that this niggling idea is not big enough. Free swimming pools is so prosaic. No if a failed Party like New Labour are to revive their flagging fortunes, then let's go for something really big, something that will really increase participation in the saving graces of sport. Instead of offering free admission to putrid pools, lets offer free admission to all football grounds. That's right, throw open the gates at Old Trafford and the Emirates Stadium, et.al. and let 'em all in for free! Now theres a sure vote winner! The punters have been complaining for years about the high cost of admission ain't they? They don't want to go to the pool if they can go to the match do they! How can anyone lose an election on a platform like that?! And don't go bothering on with all that anti-Soviet rubbish about how are we going to pay for it? We got plenty of economists on staff that are paid fancy salaries to look after such boring details, ain't we? The point is it's a big idea, a really BIG idea!
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I live in Oxford - population in 2001 134,000 minus half students=123,000
Total public swimming pool area- about 1204 square metres
if open 14 hours a day 16856 sq metre hours
so that's 0.1255 sq metre hours per person, 7.5 sq metre minutes.
Not much room to swim!
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I don't have that agenda but more swimming or similar disciplines and pastimes would help people get their own minds back. People may blame big government or foreigners but, really, fixing things starts with yourself.
People hand power over to a commercial authority and get sucked in by advertising, and the end result is high prices and the death of local footballers. They got what they wanted and are now miserable. If I read the Brown doctrine correctly, the solution is in your hands.
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All very well and good for people to complain about free swimming on offer.
Has it occured to anybody, just for one minute, sitting with a very nice comfortable life-style that there are people out there who just cannot afford the entrance money?
As that cash is required to keep body and soul together, in some households.
Everybody does not live in the comfort of cosy suburbia, some actually have to go without.
If people do not require this perk in their most cosseted of lives, then pay, but do not deny the privilege of free swimming to others who cannot. Why deny it to those who could not afford to pay?
After all it could be a possible Olympic gold medalist you are denying of the chance. Or a youngster prevented from joining in gang related activities.
Or could it be that people would deny this to the less fortunte, for the sheer hell of it, because one can?
Have we become this selfish in our society that we would deny the less well off something that is only sweetie money to the rest of the poulation? Think of others for a change, instead of the selfish British disease of ME! ME! ME!
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79:
'Has it occured to anybody, just for one minute, sitting with a very nice comfortable life-style that there are people out there who just cannot afford the entrance money?'
I would agree that helping those with little spending money is philanthropically welcome and would go down well with them but I also agree with 75 that there are many more people who are just not motivated to do so merely because they cannot be bothered to interrupt their present lifestyle. Unless it is somehow means tested it would be using tax revenue to line the pockets of the very people who actually can afford it and would then be given a free handout at our expense. Why stop at swimming pools by the way. Why not extend the scheme to tennis access and other fitnness inducing sports? The cost of joining a tennis club is now well beyond the means of hard up individuals. I'm also not sure that the scheme would help to prevent obesity. People will still eat and also eat to excess in their spare time whether they are provided with free swimming time or not. What is needed is a more radical approach to the problem in schools and the media so that people are properly educated as to the dangers of poor physique brought on by poor consumption habits. I think what I am trying to say is that although the initiative might be well intentioned its delivery and success criteria is doubtful and very costly. It is also an issue that should command the need for cross party support and is therefore not a party political matter to be debated heatedly on this forum.
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80:
corrections:
(fitness - line 12)
(people will still eat and also drink - line 15)
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79#
If the purpose was to keep youngsters away from gangs or produce Olympic medalists, why start with over 60s ?
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This "initiative" sounds like another gesture designed to sound positive, but adding nothing to the nation's resources.
Most of us would like children, the more elderly - indeed all the population - to have cheap (or even free) access to swimming pools.
But the policy won't add to the number of pools. If councils decide they can't or won't "invest" to maintain pools, this doesn't help. It certainly doesn't provide capital to build new pools.
Future Olympians need to be encouraged. If the government said unequivocally that NO school playing fields would be sold off, that would be a real benefit.
(Maybe they could buy back some of the spaces children need to enjoy. And encourage more competitive sport under some proper teaching regime. Not leaving it to the Saturday and Sunday clubs, where parents too often goad their kids into aggression.)
Keeping fit is good for everybody.
C_E_H seems breathless, waiting for a Brown keynote that could include revelations about an iPolicy.
Would that be "i" for integrated? That would be a start, after a decade. (Possibly meaning that when old folk have to get a bus - if it exists - to a distant Post Office, they find it close to a swimming pool, so they can pop in for a quick dip?)
Or "i" for invasive? Well, we have enough of that to be getting on with allready. Maybe we'll have wheelie bins with cameras?
Or "i" for intelligent? Fat chance.
(I guess there has to be a little doubt where a keynote would be delivered. Since the Labour Party has handled its own finances the same way it's handled the nation's, they could be insolvent soon. A keynote delivered in a garden shed doesn't have a lot of impact!)
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I should have added that I appear to have answered my own question.
I presume Brown's possible "revelation" of an iPolicy means "i" for insolvency.
I rather think that, if UKplc were measured by commercial criteria, it would be accused of trading under false pretences.
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Zen training is an ongoing process, and in many cases our efforts will be horrible blunders, ill-conceived in theory (if we have the time to theorize) and botched in execution. But if we pay attention along the way, each blunder can be a lesson, and the next effort might be a little less botched, a little more compassionate.
Precept #8, Chicago Zen Quarterly.
Life isn't just about what you have or who you know but about you are. Swimming may help this process of continuous self-improvement. Thus, opportunity and resources are unlocked for free. If this initiative helps shape and add momentum to national and individual self-improvement the return should pay dividends.
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Whilst the current initiative in itself is commendable, it is far too little, far too late!
To tackle youth crime, gang membership and obesity we need a joined up initiative across all government departments. Unfortunately the terms 'joined up' and 'NuLabour' do not sit well in the same sentence.
I dont know whether its me being cynical? But are Mr Bean and NuLabour attempting to commit suicide?
Notwithstanding the 42 day fiasco we now see they are set to transfer contentious major planning decisions to a non-elected, non-accountable quango. Once again more erosion of our democracy.
In the Britain that I grew up in people had rights and responsibilities. In Britain today NuLabour are rapidly dismantling the former and instituting a culture that does not even know what the later means.
Whilst I would agree that planning laws do need looking at, I feel saddened that once again NuLabour have adopted the path that leads to a less accountability to the electorate!
But hey, I guess that?s what NuLabour do best - set up unaccountable quangos.
Hardly the results of a listening government!
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I have just read the survey from the LGA with regards provisions for our Elderly Health Care across Britain for the new financial year.
Help with basic daily tasks, such as washing and eating, is increasingly available only to those with the greatest need.
Three quarters of councils now only provide personal care to elderly and disabled people who have greater than 'substantial' needs.
I suppose that NuLabour thought that floating free swimming for our elderly would in some way bury this report. Sick really!
6 billion shortfall over the next 20 years, chicken feed really when you stack that figure against what we are ploughing billions into NR and Iraq and other the other black holes that NuLabour have poured our taxes into.
Who is it that is really paying for these initiatives - looks like our elderly population!
Free swimming lessons are the last thing these people need.
They just need basic help! Sadly NuLabour has let them down!
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88:
I would concur with this. I had to look after my elderly mother for four years after a spinal operation went wrong. I had to be on hand 24/7 in case she fell and injured herself. In spite of many falls by her inside her home and many attempts to obtain more specialised care for her I was told that she did not meet the criteria.
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Behind organisations and resoruces are policies and people, and behind that is how people think and feel. It's fantastically simple and costs nothing to get behind a better approach that everyone can agree on. The rest takes care of itself.
People want great demonstrations, swelling crowds, and results today but this is only the grasping of ego. The more they wind themselves up the worse the outcome, the greater the misery. The Brown Doctrine, Peter Hain's essay on diplomacy, and the swimming pool initiative are a good start.
There's a mischievous piece in today's BBC Online that is contrary and negative, and attempts to grasp the whole problem but misses everything by a mile. It's a clever and persuasive piece but doesn't go anywhere. Really, it would've been better if it hadn't been written but this is, in itself, a useful lesson.
I don't move my fist, my fist moves itself, etcetera.
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It's not that free swimming is a bad idea - but there are so many other services that need urgent funding, including proper care for the elderly.
As usual, Brown gets his priorities wrong. He slips further down the ratings, oblivious to the fact that his unpopular policies are to blame. (Congestion charging for Manchester will be a real vote-winner!)
It's ironic that a drowning man should be offering us free swimming lessons!
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#90: DistantTraveller
Congestion charging for Manchester will be a real vote-winner!
-----------------------
Greater Manchester is currently a Tory free zone. NuLabour must be getting bored.
Believe me it sure is a vote winner - for the Tories!
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89. At 4:49 pm on 08 Jun 2008, Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote:
Behind organisations and resoruces are policies and people, and behind that is how people think and feel. It's fantastically simple and costs nothing to get behind a better approach that everyone can agree on. The rest takes care of itself.
People want great demonstrations, swelling crowds, and results today but this is only the grasping of ego. The more they wind themselves up the worse the outcome, the greater the misery. The Brown Doctrine, Peter Hain's essay on diplomacy, and the swimming pool initiative are a good start.
Charles, the intiative is a good idea, but a bit hypocritical since councils (all parties) are closing swimming pools for lack of funding and selling the land to private developers.
London is hosting the Olympics and Glasgow is hosting the Commonwealth Games, yet the whole of the UK is sorely lacking in sports facilities, and those that exist are expensive in most cases.
Free swimming is a minor gesture, a small and inexpensive tool to make the Prime Minister appear to be in touch.
If this is the Brown Doctrine (as you call it) in action, then it really is time for a change.
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The Brown Doctrine is change. It's entire focus is on quality, teamwork, and long-term success. We're in the third act of the first volume of Brown's leadership. Wanting to flip to the last page won't make the story unfold any faster.
It takes any entity 5 years to make significant and lasting change. If people want to turn their own lives around it takes time and can't be rushed. An organisation takes the same so why should turning an entire country around be quicker?
Britain makes nothing and its customer service is a joke. There's too many fiefdoms pulling in different directions. We're a failed state and need to get over that. Of course, if everyone else were just like us things would be different, right?
Police officers are beginning to comment that the 42 days issue is becoming an irrational discussion and they don't have a uniform view. Well, I said that months ago but am glad people have caught up. This should teach them something.
Britain is in such a state that a PLC can't admit policy may be wrong, and a high street shop can't admit making a mistake with your change. That's not Gordon Brown's fault, that's ego. This is what he's up against on a national scale.
A little self elightenment can be helpful. Swimming, walking the dog, or putting your feet up in the garden can help the process of dropping mental clutter and hysteria. If people stopped talking and started doing they'd be happier.
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NewLabour have been the government for eleven years.
If 'Britain is in such a state' then NewLabour are to blame.
No one accepts responsibility for anything becasue their govenrment has set them this example over eleven years; they are never responsible for failure, only for success.
This attitude has become endemic largely thanks to NewLaours shoddy example and ridiculous culture of 'rights' rather than responsibilioties.
Brown was CFO of this experiment and could have stopped it if he wanted.
Instead we are now p[resented with the brown 'doctrine' - precisley the wrong approach. People have had enough of doctrinaire, authoritarian, splashy spending, grandstanding, mis-allocating, big govenment becasue it fails over and over again.
The Berlin wall fell because of the failure of this style of government and the NewLabour walls are now crumbling.
The USSr and Eastern Europe, in common with Gordon Brown, blamed the USA for their problems shortly before their collapse. This ridiculous pinning the blame in the Americans for our current woes is turning our odest ally against us. Big mistake. Gordon Brown's biggest mistake so far, in fact. He's alienated the whole of Europe and the US. Who exactly does he think he can rely on? Certainly not his own party.
Not Flash, just no cash; that's Gordon.
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So some people keep saying but it's always easier to rail against someone else or point fingers. Menzies Campbell went down that route and his ego exploded in the most spectacular fashion. His political soul was living a lie and when reality cashed the cheque it bounced.
I've made some insanely daft mistakes in life and experienced some really, really unfair difficulties. I could easily point the finger at some of the malcontents who're giving Gordon a hard time. But, no. They're perfect and it's always someone else's fault because they've never blocked progress or flipped someone off. Yeah, right.
"Do your best", "Be kind", and "Rome wasn't built in a day" were things I was taught as a child. I didn't pay attention and karma bit me in the ass for that. Today, I know these things are true and that they work. Indeed, it is written that the superior man shall live life in abundance. All one needs to do drop the baggage. Swimming can help that.
Swim for victory. Hazaah!
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Brown has squandered the cash on trivialities such as the NHS-Crumbling Hospitals, extra Doctors Nurses and support service. On Crumbling School buildings extra teachers. Children having their own books instaed of sharing the. Fruit provided for the infants. Nursery places, plus minimum wage just to name a few, help for the eldery with free bus passes, winter fuel allowance, Christmas bonuses, free TV licences for the over 75's. What a shame Brown did not use that money wisely, such as giving tax-cuts to the rich and providing cash back for those that wished to provide their own health care. Now that would have been money well spent.
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If swimming was free, I wonder how many of us would actually be able to swim more than about 5 feet, in a pool absolutely crammed with people getting something for nothing.
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Charles: (89, 93)
Britian doesn't make anything? It takes 5 years for an 'entity' to make significant change? An organisation takes the same time? That's not Gordons fault it's ego?
You really should qualify these statements. Your problem is that you are the master of throw-away comments. We make steel and cars, and chemicals, don't we? 5 years to change? Where did you get this from? I think I can guess, from some pop management book written by some 'guru' from the USA. Why 5 years, why not 10, 20? The point is this is just nonesense. New Labour have been in power for over 10 years. Think about it a while, not 5 but over 10 years.
Also: I do wish you'd stop this 'it's all 'ego' stuff. It's akin to a kid writing a story but failing to tie it up at the end and reverting to: 'it was all a dream' as the solution. Ego as used by you is just an abstraction, it says nothing, and reveals nothing. Like it or not someone is to blame for our current woes. Using ego to tie up you posts is tedious and a fraud.
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# 94
We need not worry overly about the Americans turning against us because they will not.
However, Senator (and soon to be President) Barack Obama kindly lets us know precisely where 'Great Britain' stands in the grand scheme of things.
In his book 'The Audacity of Hope', disccusiing American international projections, he tells the reader that "we {the USA} cannot round up Great Britain and Togo" to assist us in future military adventures.
I winced a bit when I read that ... but Senator Obama is only speaking an uncomfortable truth.
America's defence budget is bigger than the next 30 countries combined.
Our politicians need to stop pretending that we can push other countries around anymore ..we cannot and it is leading to humiliation when we try e.g. in Basra, Iraq.
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# 98 doctor gloom." Britain make steel and cars and chemicals dont we" Well I'm not to sure about chemicals but we make a hell of a lot less steel since Maggie sold the steel industry and what were you saying about cars, the only cars I see about are the French, German and Eastern countries production, sprinkled with a few Italian motors. what production we have in this country[not cars] 62 per cent goes to Europe and the conservatives are hell bent on getting us out of there, at our Peril.
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All levels of the hierarchy have this sickness as people confuse confidence with bullying. This is mostly down to sins of the father. Learning a proper measure of confidence is a useful step Britain can take at a collective and individual level.
If you look at almost any major UK corporation or office wallah on a night out, you can see the same insecurity play out. We've all been touched by Thatcherism and Blairism but taking personal responsibility can help us and people around us.
The Western Freudian view meets force with force. This only leads to a bigger mess, but side-stepping trouble and focusing on the positive and social creates a better alternative which leads to a more genuine and long-lasting success.
The swimming initiative is just a teaser.
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# 98 Doctor Gloom."New Labour have been in power for over ten years, Think about it for a while, not five but over ten years"
Well I'm sure Charles has and I myself decided to give it a try, I thought well there's all the things Kiwilegs mentions on 96 and I could add a number of other things but it would be wasted on you.
And I was still thinking and I thought the Tories werent in for five years or ten year but they were in for eighteen years. Perhaps doctor just for a bit of sport you might like to tell us what the Tories did in those eighteen years, not the bad things we all know what they are.What we would like to hear are what are all the good things they did, think about it for a while, then tell us, we wait with bated breath.
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Grandantidote 100:
As I said, we 'make' cars, and we do. (the recent Nissan announcement etc.?) Furthermore the tata group have bought Landrover, and Jaguar, and as I understand it, will integrate these into what will be their expanding range of cars that are likely to be made here and elsewhere for domestic and european consumption. Which links me nicely to the steel industry.
During the time of Thatcher, it was widely recognised the the UK steel industry was overmanned. Furthermore, prior to the recession in the seventies, unrealistic assessments about future steel production were made leading to the expansion of Teeside and other sites to meet, what was thought would be, increasing future demand. Demand stagnated, and we were left with a legacy of too much capacity,(in the UK and across europe) too many workers, and reducing investment.
But more recently, integrated steel production has been doing better. Corus has been taken over by the TATA group, and they produce a good range of semi and finished steel products within Britain. They are no longer seen as a steel group that produces undifferentiated basic or what they call 'clog' steel.
The TATA group are looking for greater vertical integration within their operations. This is a good thing because raw material prices are shooting through the roof at the moment.
Furthermore, it's not the quantity of steel that is important it is the quality of the steel, and the UK steel industry, as a whole, is pretty good at producing quality steel products.
Now, as to your general argument about ownership? Well, let's put it this way, without the outside investment we have had in the UK from groups like TATA etc. there'd be a lot less UK industry, and fewer jobs. Investment, I might add, that New Labour has supported.
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C_E_H
You really are full of it.
You say Brown's in there fighting for change. Yes - the small change left after he's taken wedges of cash through taxes he squandered over the years.
Brown and Blair decided they wanted better outcomes for all. That's fine. But when you then dictate that the outcomes will be X, Y or Z, you interfere with the input processes. So saying that children will achieve better exam results produces thousands of kids with good grades, but little knowledge.
Thatcher had many faults. I never understood the assault on mining as an industry. But it was the unions who created havoc in shipbuilding, British Leyland and swathes of the lingering British production capability.
When Brown got his hands on the economic levels, it was a slight relief. But, in 1997, unemployment was at 1.6Million - too high, but there were far less people on incapacity benefit than now... We could be heading back there soon.
When he took over, we had a positive balance of trade. (Don't know when you last looked, but we now run at about minus UKL1Billion per week!!!)
Just how manay children and grandchildren do you polan to have? We will need loads to pay for the trillions of future costs this government has failed to invest for and has simply put in the box marked "someone else's problem...
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According to the BBC (so it must be right) there are only 400 swimming pools in the UK so as this is for England say 350 so its one pool for each approx 120,000 people, hope there is space in the changing rooms.
With a number of proposal for England about, do Scotland and Wales not being included do our Scottish and Welsh MPs abstain or is this driving further separation.
If this is the best GB can do options are a bit short on imagination
We have a fuel crisis as do the rest of the world and all our Prime minister can offer is free swimming.
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maybe sea level rises are expected sooner than we've been previous told
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#100 Grandantidote
The purpose of this blog was to consider the issue of free swimming, and to set it against the policies of Gordon Brown and his team. Using this as a cloak to attack the Conservatives stance on Europe is not particularly apt or reasonable. After all, membership of the EEC / EC / EU has clearly done wonders for the UK.
Not only do we build cars with overseas badges on them for the overseas purchaser, we also have overseas owners of our strategic assets such as power generation and telecomms. When oil / gas prices rise at 3-4% on the continent, guess what, our prices rise at 4 times that rate. When the UK suffers a problem such as foot and mouth disease, all of our partners rush to help and continue to buy our produce (NOT).
With partners such as these, we should really just hand over the keys to the UK plc and let them run everything. That way we don't need to be worried about coming out of the EU.
Returning to the main issue of free swimming, apparently, there are some Councils in the UK who replaced free swimming with a nominal charge and actually saw the numbers of users increase!! Does this mean that by proposing free swimming, GB and Co are actually trying to limit the numbers using these facilties?
As for CEH, why not brighten up your day by following your own suggestion - "If people stopped talking and started doing they'd be happier".
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#103 doctor gloom . First paragraph you have more faith in overseas owners than I do. I wonder how long it will last before it goes to places that labour is much cheaper than here, I can only hope that your right and I'm wrong. but we dont manufacture them our workers are working for a foreign company in the same way that we produce elec. gas ,water and other essentials.We merely supply the work force, they cant take the elec,gas and water from us but they can certainly take what you call making cars away at the drop of a hat.I'm afraid that I dont have enough know how to argue about the steel industry but I do have the evidence of my own eyes and I see that Thatcher decimated the steel industry in Wales which had produced the best steel for generations and our loss was the gain of the countries of the far east, they have had no trouble selling their steel and still are.
I have no argument against foreign investment dispite the above without foreign investment in many fields we would be up the well known creek without a paddle. what we would be praising if it had'nt been for Thatchers garage sale would be our ownership of all these industries.
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# chriskingfleet, In order to know whats happening on this planet you have to live here, so please dont stay away to long.
when you get back check your figures and sit done and think about it as one of our bloggers likes to say.
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#102
Can we imagine life as if the Conservative years never happened?
Overtly strong trades unions flexing their muscles and keeping Britain as the sick man of Europe. Rubbish piling up on the streets. High inflation that leads to a prices and incomes policy that leads in turn to a 3 day week. Car production that would mimic the worst of the old eastern bloc era. The growth of the USSR and it's satellite states. The retrenchment of the USA. The demise of NATO. The ability to go on holiday at most once a year. Defunct and overmanned public 'services'. No right to buy your public sector house / flat. No right to choose a school for your children. A smaller and more regulated rail service. A joke of a national airline. Broadband still to be delivered by BT.
However, you asked only for one thing that everyone in this country benefited from and I would suggest that it was the lifting of exchange controls. If you are not sure what this means, just ask yourself how you can visit an overseas country if you are not able to spend in their currency (or vice versa). This applies to businesses as well as individuals. I think it has something to do with the free market.
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Many people in Britain feel that this NuLabour government do not support the workers in Britain and have let them down!
I, for one, would like to express my disgust at the continuing failure of the NuLabour Government to adequately represent the interests of working people.
NuLabour MPs who have treated workers with "contempt".
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grandantidote: you asked what the Tories achieved in 18 years of power. Well, they made some mistakes and were in power too long - that breeds arrogance.
Hoewever, their main achievement was to pull the UK out from bankruptcy caused byu the previous labour administration.
What has GB achieved? The Post Office is a mess, caused in part by the union's refusal to accept changes in workign practices to accommodate changing business climates (and Alan Johnson was the man who refused if I remember rightly!).
Energy companies are foreign owned, PFI is out of control, xenophobia is rife thanks to the devolution policies (which are nothing like they were promised), no EU referendum.
Add the Manchester congestion charge - which is all about taxes not the environment - and Labour are losing voters left, right and centre.
David Cameron might no be the best alternative, but anything is better than another 5 year plan.
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#110 smfcbuddie Checking back on the posts we go back to #98 we were asked to think about nu Labour over the last five to ten years not thirty years, which we did kiwilegs gave you most of the answer I then asked the tories what good things they had acheived over the eighteen years they were in power, at no time did I ask for one thing that the Tories did in those eighteen years, but if thats all they did then we have the answer, not much there to compete with nu Labours record over the last ten years,I personally would prefer that we were in the euro currency and if it had'nt been for the Tory press and the Tory party vehemently brainwashing the public oposing any moves in that direction thats were we'd be today. The situation we have today is much to my regret, but it will come not in my lifetime but its inevitable.
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A posting seems to have disappeared into thin air, so I'll try again.
#109 grandantidote
Before I use figures in a posting, I check the (official) ONS statistics. I suggest that you do the same.
Planet Earth has always seemed a good place for me - and all of us.
The twin planets Blair and Brown almost seduced us. On the one hand, there was vapour and spin. On the other was this mysterious vast mass that would hold everything together.
I never guessed that Brown would make life so difficult for the mass of "ordinary people".
Taking away the 10% tax band, which was introduced with a flourish and whipped away just as quickly, was a stupid - just sheer stupid - move. To say that people will be "compensated" - meaning that they have to grovel to get back what they should never have lost in the first place - is just appalling.
Frankly, I couldn't care less if anyone "earning" more than UKL1Million was taxed at 75% over that limit. (Even UKL 500,000 or 250,000 on a grumpy day...)
Recent events have shown that many financial institutions have poor processes, little understanding of what their in-house gamblers were "investing" in and a comlete lack of regard for the fall-out from their actions.
If the boss of Barclays plans to pick up UKL 23Million, I would be happy to see most of that re-cycled to help the less fortunate.
There is a lot of tosh talked about the "risk of losing the best talent" unlss you pay them lots and tax them little.
Where would they go if we didn't "persuade them" to stay here? India? China? Indonesia?
Are they still saying that, after the disastrous "investments" they made in sub-prime mortgage offerings, wrapped up in pretty paper, they need to be paid a fortune to bugger things up?
My issue with Brown is that, instead of managing money carefully (which is what I thought a Scot would do), he sprayed it around with little control over the negotiations the spending ministers got involved with.
For God's sake - the NHS consultants told Hewitt that she was offering too much. Did she listen? Not likely. GPs were offered more money, but a get out clause. Then Big Gord fought back to impose not very much. It wasn't the fault of the professionals if the Government wanted to give things away...
I can never remember an administration so badly run and so profligate as this one.
Take a peek at the Treaty of Lisbon "Final Act", where it says that - to paraphrase - governments should take advantage of good economic periods to build reserves.
What did Brown do?
I guess it's silly to say again that the Labour Party's finances reflect the nation's. Quite possibly insolvent.
Who chose that route?
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I would prefer that the police got their deal and that the post office was given it's subsidy than go for a free swim. This is where the ideology of this government is a little messed up
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# 112
'xenophobia is rife thanks to the devolution policies'
You often see this, a conflation of the wish to have your own people running your own country e..g. English people running England, with 'xenophobia' - a fear or dislike of strangers.
This style of politics is classic Clinton, i.e. divisive, polarising.
I hope that English people see it for what it is, simply a device to make us 'feel uneasy' about running our own affairs.
PS. xenophobia - fear or dislike of strangers or the unknown, often used to describe nationalistic political beliefs and movements
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Look, I know I'll be called a moaner for saying this but - 100 troops killed in Afghanistan, soaring food and fuel prices, poverty actually widening in our society, home ownership a dream for many and a cross for others, rampant inflation...and the government thinks we'll all be chuffed because they want to throw swimming pools open to some for free?
This lot have lost the plot.
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Still not sure how this "moderation" stuff works. It seems to slow some postings, but let others through p.d.q.
I wanted to question whether grandantidote had actually checked the official statistics before "rubbishing" my comment.
This is an overly stressed planet.
Over-taxing people doesn't help.
Good use of tax money would really help.
I cannot find anyone who believes that passing UKL 64BILLION into QANGOs is a great and transparent use of our cash.
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105 mikethebiscuit
Hope all are well.
Have been a way a few days so missed your posr re swimming pools
On the BBC TV morning programme I think they qualified the 400 swimming pools as local authority pools. The presenter commented that his kids go to privately owned pools that have all the slides, etc. Of course, free swimming would not apply here.
Since there are roughly 400 local authorities, the number 400 makes sense.
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On Saturday I visited someone I have known since 1962. He is a very disenchanted Labour supporter - has been staunch Labour ever since I have known him, and will certainly vote Labour at the next election. He is about 80 now.
He is very close to someone high up in the government. On asking his opinion on Gordon Brown he just said "He's got to go, did you see Prime Minister's Questions and the look on Jack Straw's face. He's a total embarrassment."
I than asked if he had inside information. He just smiled saying with confidence, "Gordon Brown will be out by the end of the summer and Labour will have no option but to call an election because any replacement has even less of a mandate than Brown."
I asked how much damage Brown is doing to Labour. He could only answer that the main damage is already done, the non-election cock-up and the 10p tax fiasco were terrible decisions, and he has to go to stop any more damage being done.
I would like to give some clues to who the person is and who the person in the government is. Sadly, that would put them in very difficult position and it cannot be done.
All I can do is say, like Nick " An unnamed source ......"
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Welcome back mikepko.
Hope you had a good break!
You have not missed much while you have been away!
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Grandantidote,
It seems like I am wasting my time writing in an ironic style. All of the points I listed become positive outcomes from the 1980s as the Labour party were out of office. As a nation we avoided the pressures and problems associated with the creation of the Euro (once we jumped out of the ERM). New Labour benefited from a strong and growing economy, and even maintained the Conservative spending plans. It is also worth noting that neither Blair nor Brown rushed to change the Conservative legacy re' the unions or the right to buy, etc. In many ways it seems to me that you are adopting the role played by John Cleese in the Life of Brian when he asks what the Romans have ever done for us.
As for adopting the Euro, try and remember that our interest rate would be the same as for all of the other members of the Euro zone. What this means is that if our region gets out of step with the rest we could end up having our economy sqeezed when it actually needs a boost. A bit like Scotland when the South East overheats. Do you really want people in the UK complaining about other parts of Europe exporting their unemployment here?
If you really like the Euro so much, you can always live in Ireland, etc.
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Just one word of warning mikepko.
Do not go near the "Complain about this comment" link. You will get a tirade of abuse.
Something along the lines of "freedom of speeech".
That thing that our government are so wonderful at upholding!
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# 120
I think that is usually better to focus on the policies, such as they are, rather than the politicians themselves.
However, the power of an individual personality does seem to be very important at the uppermost reaches where the PM is, by definition, expected to be a leader.
This fellow Brown, has made life extremely difficult for himself by making many enemies on the way up, 'over-analysing' when it came to making a fairly snap decision about the election, and by the asinine decision on the 10p tax rate, whcih I personally rather enjoyed, as 'fiscal drag' finally bit the biter.
More, Brown is really ultimately to blame for the NR debacle, because the tri-partite system that he boasted about for ten years, failed at its first critical test, because Brown had taken crucial oversight away from the BofE and given it to those deeply unimpressive people at the FSA - something is needed that more than 'fine-tuning' can fix, I think in this case.
Brown might have lost a lot of support within Labour but they are broke anyway and cannot afford to fight an election, especially against Ashcrofts millions.
I am only interested in political England, so I do hope that Labour stagger on for a couple more years ... then ... well, regular readers know the rest.
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#120: mikepko
I then asked if he had inside information. He just smiled saying with confidence, "Gordon Brown will be out by the end of the summer and Labour will have no option but to call an election because any replacement has even less of a mandate than Brown."
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Funny that I have also heard rumours via the trade unions that they will give Mr Bean 2 months to put his house in order.
In fact one union in particular are to withdraw financial support from 36 NuLabour MPs.
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They say;
"The government is very keen on testing for everybody, performance related pay, and we've applied in the GMB over the last 12 months exactly the same principle.
"We've examined the records of MPs both at local level and national level and many are doing a fantastic job, but there are a number who seem at times to be embarrassed by their relationship with the union.
"We don't want to embarrass them by giving them union money."
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Looks like the Trade Unions, NuLabour paymasters, are not very happy bunnies!
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#112
It may surprise you that I am Scottish, but did live and work in England for many years.
Most Scots don't want independance, despite what Alex Salmond twitters on about. And we certainly think it is unfair for Scots MPs to vote on issues that affect England.
In my opinion, devolution was brought in to secure Labour votes for the long term, since Labour knew that they would lose support in England. But is has backfired in spectacular fashion. The SNP did not win in Scotland - Labour lost. And Alex Salmond is driving the resentment felt in England about Scottish funding, since it benefits him.
Too much is said about a "Scottish PM" and a "Scottish Cabinet". It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference if the Labour PM was from Mars!
But back on topic again - if Gordon Brown insists on minor freebies like free swimming, what else is he going to do to cling onto power?
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# 126
I've noticed that even The Times has given up any pretence on this matter and now simply refers to the 'Scottish Government'.
It is a doleful fact of political life that the incumbent fouls up and is chucked out - and the opposition, whoever they are simply fills-the-boots.
That is what eventually happened in Scotland - which has given canny Alex Salmond (in my opinion, the best political friend the English have got) an opportunity he is very unlikely to squander.
All Brown can do is writhe in agony as he sees out the fag-end of political Britains days, watching Scotland drift away to full independence.
It is slightly weird to think that Cameron is going to be the last Prime Minister of Britain and the first Prime Minister of reborn political England.
We English will want the national anthem sorting very quickly Dave.
Then we'll probably be sorting you.
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Looks like the previous thread has descended int the gutter.
It looks like a battlefield!
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Do you know I knew a man who knew a man who could be called an unamed source, who knew a lady who danced with the Prince of Wales. That unamned source was not Andy Burnham either, although I could not poissibly name him as he did not exist in the first place........If the boot fits....
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
# 128
This Englishman has participated on Scottish website blogs and I can assure you that what is going on in the other thread here is tame, very tame.
Battlefield? ... by Scottish standards .. that is mere handbags at dawn.
No wonder we English are given the run-around by these Scottish politicians at Westminster.
They really know how to get stuck in.
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#131: JohnConstable
I couldn?t agree with you more. I too am from Scotland but came down to England when I was about 2 years old. I to have followed Brian Taylors blogs and other Scotch newspaper blogs for weeks.
One interesting event that will happen on Thursday of this week will be the Irish referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
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124 JohnConstable
Totally agree.
However, this evening I watched a recent "Despatches" on Brown (obviously a repeat) and what came across very clearly is that it is very difficult to separate Brown and policies.
It said that Darling isn't really Chancellor (just fronting) and that Brown is micro-managing the Treasury as well as mucking up being PM. I think we all knew that. In my opinion we have a dictatorship in all but name.
While I have been away I see that a large number of posts on the "Premier Performance" thread were disallowed. Can you tell me why?
Also, I see that someone questioned my 120 posting. This is absolutely true - I have no need to lie nor am I a liar.
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#133: mikepko
Some people have been playing silly beggars!
Just look at the end last thread!
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#133: mikepko
I have had my comments at #128 pulled and all it contained were roughly the same as what I have just posted.
When the moderators are back tomorrow If the pulled posts do not break the house rules they will be re-instituted.
Over the weekend a large number of postings were pulled but reappeared again this morning once the moderators had read them!
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134
Whoopee. I see what you mean. It hardly seems worthwhile posting if you know your posts are stopped, does it?
Desperation breeds contempt.
Anyway, I off back to bed. I only got up to see what time my wife's flight from Dubai gets in to Heathrow in this morning. Late as ususal!!!
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#120 mikepko good morning Mike. Now come on tell us who it is, your only teasing us with your nudge nudge wink wink conversation. he must be a great Labour supporter to have divulged this information to a Tory. it's strange that you would say that it comes from a unnamed source, thats exactly the expression that newspapers use to cover a story that they have concocted on a quiet news day and usually has no truth in it whatsoever. Its also rather odd that his asessment of Browns
short comings are identical to your asessment, if he is a labour supporter which sounds very unlikely then he is one of the dinosaurs who reject any change into the 21 century, the rebels are full of them.
A person in the government giving infomation to a disgruntled socialist who then passes it on to a vociferous Tory, all sounds a bit cloak and dagger, dont you think?
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# mikepko. mike you say "i see that some one is questioning my 120 posting, This is absolutly true, I have no need to lie nor am I a liar." I would not suggest that you are Mike but it seems that I've heard that some where before.I wont pursue the subject anymore but its never wise to unnecessarily proclaim your innocence.
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137#Grandantidote.
Yes, my thoughts exactly.
That is why I replied I know a man, who knew a man, who knew a lady, who danced with the Prince of Wales.
That was on at Post 130, which you can now see has been referred, this time by me to contact the regiulators.
I too took the remark with a pinch of salt as you will notice a bit later on in the day, when the post is re-instated.
I also said that the unamed source was not Andy Burnham.
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If it sounds too good to be true it probably is. It's an opportunistic and self-serving comment which does the person making it no favours. If they're representative of the Tories grasp on "new politics" it just reinforces my view they don't get it.
It takes up to 20 years for a community to change in a meaningful way and, I recall, this is something the media picked up on and ran for a week. It's as true now as it was then which is why my position remains that the Tories will benefit from longer in opposition.
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Mikepko@120
I believe your comment about as much as I believe that your blogging mate Nulabournohope is 3 former Labour supporters.
Nulabournohope are you stalking anyone else on this blog site? "Woops e daisy"Nulabournohope@172
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NuLabourNoHope
re 138/139/140
"There is none blind that will not see."
I think the dinosaurs are ganging up on us.
The conversation is absolutely true. Happily my Labour friend is a totally reasonable person who only wants the best for the Labour party and the Country. He was very scathing about GB. And quite right too.
We all know it is coming in the Summer, or even sooner if GB's rating continues to fall.
Even as a Conservative I didn't that any one could have an approval rating lower than Ian Duncan-Smith. Congratulations GB.
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I've just looked at the BBC WEbsite Politics page and the following FOUR headlines seem to sum up the government.
MORE CHILDREN LIVING IN POVERTY
The number of children living in poverty has risen for a second year, a government report says.
SCHOOLS 'NO EXCUSES' ON RESULTS
Almost one in five secondary schools in England have been given a "no excuses" warning to improve exam results or face closure.
TERROR VOTE 'WILL BE VERY TIGHT.'
Home Office minister Tony McNulty has said the result of Wednesday's crunch vote on extending terror detention to 42 days is looking "very, very tight".
DRIVERS URGED AGAINST FUEL PANIC
Downing Street has urged motorists not to panic-buy petrol and diesel ahead of a planned strike by tanker drivers delivering fuel for Shell on Friday.
I'm not sure if I am living in the 2008 Summer of Discontent, or 1979 Winter of Discontent, such is the bad news
Is this news and the recent flurry of other bad news - 10% tax, car licensing, loss of records, threats of strikes by the Police, etc, etc, etc, a sign of a Government in Control.
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Apology for the incorrect quotation. It should have been
"There's none so blind as those who will not see"
History is full of them.
Scottish Field Marshall Douglas Haig comes to mind. He sent tens of thousands of brave Tommies to their deaths by giving such stupid orders as "walk, don't run" as they crossed non-man's land under a hail of machine-gun bullets during WW1. Time and time again, despite the casualties, the troops were given this order, and were cut down.
I say this as several posters continue to praise Brown despite the facts and the damage he is doing to Labour. Like Haig, he is a very vain man, who believes that provided you try the same thing time and time again, despite evidence that it is not working, you will be right in the end. And all around suffer.
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I heard this morning that quite a large number of schools have been given 51 dyas to come up with a plan to turn things around, otherwizse they will be closed. So much for Labour's Education, Education, Education, then.
I also heard that there are more pensioners and children in poverty now than in 1997. Gordon will have to change the record at PMQ's.
I hope the vote on the 42 days will be very tight. It will be a very sad day for Britain if this is passed.
I can also see the day approaching where cars will be left in driveways because people will not be able to afford the petrol to run them. If anyone thinks this is bad, just wait until the extra bands in VED come into force. There won't be many of us not affected by a further stealth tax under the name of "green".
Things can only get better? They sure as hell can't get any worse!
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# 144 mikepko. I think you've got it wrong again unless its a regional thing the quotation as I know it is " there's none so blind as those that can see but wont".
I think your starting to get carried away with all this hate and bile Mike, comparing Gordon Brown with Haig is really stretching credibility, come on now Mike cool down and have a glass of water.
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Quotation
There's none so blind as they that won't see.
Jonathan Swift,
Polite Conversation (dialogue III)
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I've got some good things to say about Hague so the hardline approach from the Tories against Gordon Brown does irritate a bit. I think, Hague was unfairly treated by the media and the Tories dropped the ball when they got rid of him. However, Gordon Brown is capable of staying the distance so is better able to shrug off irrational media and internal party grumblings.
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# 148 read 144 mikepko I 'm afraid that I might have misled you if you read 144 all will become clear. I am inclined to agree with you about Hague but not Haig.
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TODAY'S NEWS
So more bribery then over 42 days. As if being paid for being unlawfully in prison is ok. And the GB Fiscal rules ahve been broken.
See BBC website headlines below
42-DAY CONCESSION TO BE OFFERED
The government is expected to offer a last-minute compensation deal to help push the 42-day detention plan through.
Under this, any suspect held for more than 28 days and later not charged could receive £3,000 for each extra day in custody, the BBC has learned.
AND, oh dear
EU TO ACT OVER UK BUDGET DEFICIT
The European Commission is to start disciplinary proceedings against the UK for breaching its economic rules.
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I've just been refreshing my memory on Hague. He was the one who started the fuel protest bandwagon and was very good at selling himself. Cameron's less direct and not so polished but has tapped into a similar vein. It all looks a little familiar.
The problem with the Tories is they may intellectually grasp the issues and be smart enough to keep the mad granny locked in the attic but the shame of their past hasn't really penetrated. Nobody changes that fast and a party certainly doesn't. Their squeaky clean image runs counter to the science. Ergo, it must be a lie.
Blair pulled a similar trick and it's clear "old Labour" still have issues with gesture politics and backstabbing. The trick is now old and I don't believe the Tories will hold back from returning to type when they have a chance. Labour can be a bit dopey and not push as hard but the Tories have a problem with restraining themselves.
On balance, I figure, Labour will do least harm, and by growing from the ground up will plot a more certain and positive path than the Tories are capable of.
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Morning CEH
Just a quick reminder - we are now in the 21st Century in case you had forgotten. Like moves on but not apparently with Old Labour.
You nasty labour bullies, having ago at William Hague. Saw him last year at the Cheltenham Literature Festival - nice man, fantastic speaker. Will make a very good Foreign Secretary soon.
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CHILD POVERTY
From the Times
(HEADLINE) Ministers are ?falling years behind? on targets to banish child poverty
Fears are growing that Gordon Brown may be forced to drop or modify stringent targets to eradicate child poverty days after he failed to reaffirm his commitment to the goal in Parliament. ......
This has always been one of Brown's soundbites at PMQs. Is even this very important area suffering under his 'leadership'.
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Well, you're being a bit narrow minded and triumphalistic. I do have at least a more rounded view and cut a little slack. My position is more realistic and grounded, and people can draw their own conclusions from that.
I'm interested in quality, consensus, and the long-term, not online ego games. If you want to be a forum rockstar go ahead. It's not going to influence me and I'll just end up tuning you out. Life is short and I just ain't got time for it.
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?Who swam for free first? ...Any more offers??
In 1956/7 at my secondary modern school, Bradford had an incentive for 11 to 15 year olds to pass three differing grades of swimming certificate and one got a free swimming pass for a year. Of course those were the times when sports in schools were championed, incentive wasn?t politically incorrect and the conservative government hadn?t yet concreted over all our outdoor schools sports facilities. Finally, in those days there was only one fat kid per class!
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Nick, your last blog about David Davis does not allow one to log in.
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