Tipping point?
Be in no doubt. If David Cameron becomes prime minister many will look back at the vote in Crewe and Nantwich as the moment they first believed it was possible.
Not only is this the first Tory by-election gain from Labour in 30 years, it is on a swing that matches those secured by Ted Heath and Margaret Thatcher before they reached No 10.
It comes less than a year after what was billed as Labour's moment of "renewal" when Gordon Brown succeeded Tony Blair. It comes just weeks after the prime minister responded to crushing defeats in the local elections by telling voters he felt their hurt before unveiling an unexpected tax cut and his legislative programme for the year ahead.
So, what is left to do now? A reshuffle? It would, most likely, be dismissed as moving the deckchairs on the Titanic. Ditching the captain then? Certainly that is being discussed by many Labour MPs - even some in the cabinet - but it stll looks unlikely - for now. A change of policy? That is where the debate will now focus with one senior minister telling me that it's time tear up what they referred to as "Gordon's five-year tractor plans" and take action now to ease the financial pain many are feeling - if necessary by postponing investment in hospitals and schools to pay for it.
Some in Labour will comfort themselves with the memory that Neil Kinnock was pretty good at winning by-elections but still couldn't win a general election. It is not likely to comfort very many.
I'm 
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Labour have already had their worst moment, and the Conservatives have just had their best moment, so I expect things to swing again. A change of plan and keeping the present cabinet in place is probably a good idea.
Changes in execution may only have to be modest to bring about the renaissance in policy and presentation I feel the government has been reaching for. It's a weird one but I don't expect the magician to reveal all his tricks. That might ruin the surprise when the white rabbit is pulled out of the hat.
The Tao warns of the perception of arrogance and Gordon Brown has paid a heavy price for that, but the Tao also suggests that people cannot find it in their hearts to go to war if a king humbly takes on the blame. Thus, in death we may find life, and in life find death.
All hail the Prime Dudester!
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David Cameron will need to continue to move the party to a tax cutting, business friendly party to maintain his momentum. Stop being afraid of what the country needs!
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Even some in the Cabinet?
Do tell!!
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And so the revival goes on - and why not too? I wonder how Gordon Brown will try to talk himself out of this one? Should be good for a laugh!
I think the voters in Crewe and Nantwich are reflecting on the current mood of the country as a whole and are giving a very specific message to Gordon Brown and his Cabinet.
No doubt the NuLabour Spin Mongers will try to tell us we are wrong and they are right, that they are listening to the message and have 'got it', and this is just a blip and 'mid term blues' (I like the word 'blue') - but that reaction too is now a busted flush!
As Bob Dylan once sang - "The times they are a changing" - and so it is now for NuLabour.
Nice try for eleven years, but you have ruined the nation and it's people, destroyed the fabric of its society and bankrupt us with huge borrowing and debt we cannot afford (and few realise just how much).
PLEASE GO before you do any more damage - especially Gordon Brown.
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At last - we can start to see the end of this awful government. Two things are needed now:
1. The media must expose the shocking waste of tax payers money across each government department since 1997 and expose the billions wasted on the reams of administrative and overseeing bodies and not injected directly into frontline services in schools, hospitals, armed forces and police.
2. The Conservatives must now start to articulate over a period of time, the steps it intends to take.
I'd like to see the media shine an intense spotlight on ministers, one department at a time and over a period of a few weeks and question the value for money that has been achieved. We should then sit back and listen to what the Conservatives think should be done in that area.
After 6 months of this the public could surely force a general election by popular demand!
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It looks at this time, if the United Kingdom, had a General election...the Conservatives under the leadership of David Cameron would be the Next Prime Minister....
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As Hazel Blears said on Question Time 'The Electorate are sending us a powerful message and we will listen but this is just mid term blues.'
And this after 11 years in power. Totally out of touch with the majority of the voting public!
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Morning all
What a great result. Not 2000, not 5000 but an 8000 majority.
I'm afraid the population aren't listening to C_E_H et al. They are just fed up with Labour, and quite rightly too.
And of course Labour are in denial. Just look at Hazel Blears on Question Time.
Can we now have an election so that we, the people of the UK can elect a PM?
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Nick,
We are experiencing possibly the most bizarre period in contemporary British politics.
A government with two years to remain in office have been consistently routed in elections since May 2007. This is also a government formed from an increasingly disintegrating party with a proven record of eleven years of incompetence and deception.
Brown is probably the most ridiculed and disliked Prime Minister in modern politics.
Despite the accurate and balanced interpretations of public opinion by the media, I predict we are not going to see any changes in government policies , just more offensive spin.
This by-election is not just a confirmation of the demise of nu-labour, and all that it represents. With no change in the status quo resulting it also will end any public faith in the way we are governed in this now fake democracy.
This is a very sad day for Britain, this useless government borrowed £2.7Billion, only last week, to try to save their jobs and salvage something from this by-election, another signal of their total corruption to cling to office and continue the incompetence.
Only two million decent people on the streets peacefully demonstrating will bring change. When the ballot box and democracy fails us what else can we do to bring the changes we demand and deserve.
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The worm has turned! This is the final nail in the coffin of the New Labour project.
Brown, New Labour and the Political Elite cannot survive. All the party donors who have done so well out of New Labour in return for favours are ebbing away. New Labour will see a rapid decline as power drains away.
Times will change, but what's the political alternative.
The Conservatives will have to start to harden up their policies (or even produce some). They are starting already with Cameron's signal on tax cuts and highlighting the debt. Now instead of being reactive to New Labour, often just a quote at the end of any report of another failed and disastrous New Labour policy, they will have to produce some sensible, real manifesto commitments.
But that's only the politics.
Other elements of the State (and there are many more than the political parties) will remind the Government that they are not the only kids on the block - not just the a Prime Minister and New Labour cronies and hangers on.
The Police are already flexing their muscles. The Judiciary have for a while started to stand up to New Labour. The Armed Forces generals too have made their voices heard. The Media is turning - even the urban liberal politically correct BBC/ Guardian is showing disquiet.
The Murdoch Empire - so far sitting on the fence - will be at the forefront of the media campaign. The Empire will strike back. After all they need to reflect the views of their bread and butter readers.
Big Business, the ones who really hold the power- well, they'll continue to accelerate the move out of the UK - through the foreign investment banks and off-shore havens, where the disastrous UK debt spiralling out of control cannot reach them.
Its time now to focus on key, bold, clear, simple to understand initiatives. Faced with stark choices, people will see sense as long as it is honest and not spun or seen to be spun. People from all walks of life need to be told in plain terms that the country is in a mess.
We need to take big often controversial issues - they can be big or small (there's room for all) and make bold decisions. Explain in simple language the pros and cons and then act boldly in the best interests of the people of the United Kingdom and it citizens.
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Team Dave would do well to get it themselves.
This was not a positive vote for a watered down version of New Lab.
It was a tidal wave of English anger over tax, immigration, the EU, unfair Devolution issues, crime and New Lab's skill at punishing the deserving in favour of the undeserving.
If these lessons are not learned, last night may yet turn out to be the Tories' high tide mark.
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There are just a small handfull of people on here that still cannot see what the rest of the country can.
We do NOT want labour anymore. And yes, we have been looking, in detail, at the tory plans, and whilst they are not perfect, and some bits of their agenda suck, they are still far more preferable to labour's mean, poor-hating, dithering, incompetent cowardice and lies and their total sell-out to the corporate elite. The straw that broke the camel's back, as it were, was not actually the 10p tax con, but the broken promise on the EU referendum.
So what could labour do to turn things round?
The ONLY thing that would begin that process would be to perform a massive U turn and call a referendum on the EU treaty then come out fighting in support of it.
But that's the problem for Labour. Labour? come out fighting? Don't make me laugh! Brown's labour party could not fight it's way out of a wet paper bag! They are much too scared to take on any issue that they have already promised themselves to the global elite their own total defference and fealty over.
Brown is dedicated to the break-up of the UK and then the bits are to be handed over to the EU to own.
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Perhaps this result will bring an end to the ludicrous practice of trying to arrange for seats to be inherited by members of the former MP's family. Particularly if you're simultaneously trying to run a campaign based on class emnity.
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I think it is a little early to jump to conclusions about the result of the next general election. After all it doesn't need to happen for about two years.
I remember mid term by-election results that were very bad for the government but they went on to win the general election comfortably. Fifty years ago by election results wer vey bad for the goverment after Suez but they went on to win big time in 1959. The same pattern was repeated during the Thatcher years.
So lets wait and see what happens
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It seems to be a fact that once governments have been in power for long enough, they start to completely lose their grip on reality and the end is inevitable. It happened to the Tories under John Major (remember all the Sleaze?) and it's happening to Labour under GB. I think this result marks just another way-point on New Labour's inevitable slide into a massive electoral defeat.
The really depressing thing is we'll just get another Tory government, who in their turn will screw everything up, and the whole cycle starts again.
Why, oh why, can we not get a government that is actually fit to govern?
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I expect that the cabinet are now breathing a sigh of relief, thinking that that is over now. The trouble is, of course, that the electorate will be thinking the same thing in a week's time as now, but will have lost the medium to express it.
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Charles I think you mean Mao not Tao, for the sake of us all get some sleep and use a spellchecker.
This government has been rumbled by the electorate. They have plucked the taxpayer for the last 11 years until they are bald. They can no longer raise tax by stealth so have now turned to tax raising under the guise of environmental taxation. We in the UK pay far more for our fuel than anyone else in Europe and twice as much as is Spain. More tax is piled on with the new heavily disguised road tax increase. We have had enough.
The time has come for someone to sweep away the bureaucracy and Management Consultants that got rich on NuLabour contracts. We must get back to small government that delivers value for money and freedom of the individual. The controlling and oppressive nature of Gordon Brown and his friends is bearing down and suffocating the population of the United Kingdom.
And doesn't Ms "grin and spin" Hazel Blears really annoy you with her "Auntie Hazel knows best" speach-lets and the way she flicks her head like a lizard? Every time she appears on TV the Tories must add 2% to their poll rating.
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Anyone hoping for an election.Do not Hold your breath turkeys don't vote for Christmas.Gordon will come out today fighting.He will listen He will move on with his long term plans.and he will lead from the top. Translated into I know you think Im wrong but I will carry on.
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So, Chuck, what's the sound of one party flapping?
All fail, blessed leader.
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Very good result for the Tories. A shocker for Labour. I hope now that political pundits see this as an indicator that Prime Minister Cameron is a serious possibility they will be more robust in their analysis of his policies. Seldom in thirty+ years of following politics can I recall a prospective prime minister getting such an easy media ride - BBC included. I compare this to the treatment of Kinnock, Hague and Foot.
Yes the Conservatives have been helped by government mistakes and lacklustre presentation but please political pundits do your job and make sure we as the electorate are secure about what potential Prime Minister Cameron and the Conservatives intend. Their pronouncements, voting patterns and policy announcements need to be given a higher degree of in depth analysis than is currently the case. If he wants to be Prime Minister he needs to be able to offer more than the politics of oppostion. Protest votes have their place but by the general election all of us have a right to be more secure on what a Cameron led government would stand for. A genuinely robust media would be pivotal in securing this. If the Crewe and Nantwich by-election sees the media looking in a serioius way at what a Conservative government would mean then we may be at the point of having a genunely interesting debate. My fear is the media fawning to Dave, BoJo and and the Conservative party will continue.
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The Government and Gordon Brown in particular have not understood that the real problem is the ever greater interference by the state in peoples lives.
We are hardly free to do anything except get drunk in the pub, and I expect that will be controlled soon.
Firstly people hate this and secondly they understand it costs a lot of money which we have not got
The latest idea to record all phone calls and emails says it all
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A lot of it is just people lashing out but Labour have pretty much fessed up to the state of affairs. One can rake over the past or wag fingers but I'm more interested in how things are dealt with. Mistakes have been made and this is a difficult situation but its nothing to get worked up about.
I generally think a period of calm followed by a slow build up to the Prime Minister's conference keynote is filling the minds of strategists at the moment. If Labour backbenchers use this time to quietly count their achievements and generally stay in circulation it should take their minds off things.
The Tories will try to continue bullying and pull the rug from under Labour but this grandstanding, and sniping from sockpuppets on the sidelines will only get a grip if they let it. Simply, being happy and projecting happiness is as good a plan as any. Happy minds create happy policies and, well, it's a little catching.
Heck, the Dali Lama's written a book on it!
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Its too late for labour.
People are not willing to go through all this every time the government gets it wrong.
Brown and his cabinet have sqandered opportunity after opportunity to become something that works in the public interest, rather than being a thorn in our sides.
This dog is badly behaved and has proved too stuborn to be trained - time to shoot it and get a new one
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Thank you Crewe for delivering a big message to an arrogant government.
Sadly Gordon "£5 a gallon" Brown will not even notice the bloo under his own nose
It just me or has Gordon Brown out greyed John Major he almost hypontises me into a deep sleep when he drones on and on.
He is very dull so perhaps Brown is the new Grey??
Thanks to the people of Crewe I will think of you when I fill my VW will £75 of diesel that used to take only £35 to fill 4 years ago.
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Nick Robinson uses the analogy of the Titanic, comparing a reshuffle to moving the deckchairs on the deck.
Ditching the captain would be like throwing him overboard. Ever since Gordon Brown took over the wheel he has been directing it straight at one iceberg after another. Even if another captain changes course, it will still sink because the Labour ship is leaking badly at the rivets and is about to break up.
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C_E_H - there are none so blind as those who will not see.
The country has had enough of NuLabour. They are fed up of the spin, the sophistic spending announcements, the "I know better than you" attitude.
We want a change.
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Lots of good points.
I for one feel the suffocation lifting everytime there is an election. The locals started it, Boris continued it and this morning I am starting to feel free.
I do not want my every move to be governed, I do not want my calls and emails to to recorded, and I certainly do not want Brown, Blears, Smith et al to keep telling me it is for my own good.
A previous poster said that while Brown will not call an election or resign 2million people on the streets will do the job. So why not? It doesn't have to be just London, it could be the streets of every major city (certainly in England) giving a vote of no confidence in this government.
I am not normally active in politics, my normal quote about politicians is that they are "self serving professional liars," but the cirrent government really do rile me.
They don't only want my money, they want my soul as well and they are not getting it.
The Conservative may not be any better but they couldn't possibly be worse, and quite honestly a change would do us all good.
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#7. Hazel Blears was right. It is mid-term blues. If you expect to be in power for 22 years and we're in year 11, then it's simple mathematics. Half-way between 22 and zero is 11, therefore it's mid-term. I'm sure there's a whole bunch of people who have been contributing to recent blogs who will agree with me.
One blogger said that he was in Crewe and met no-one who was gonig to vote Tory. He then mentioned that he had obsevered Labour posters everywhere. I am bound to say though, that taking a poll inside the Labour offices probably isn't representative of the whole electorate and a wider sample should normally be taken.
At the end of the day, as the Chinese saying goes, "one hand doesn't make a clap". What the Tories have to do is to push their ideas for Government. This is what Brown and Blair did and is what is expected of Cameron and Osborne. I'm tending to think of the Blair/Brown era as I think of the partnership between Paul Daniels and Debbie McGee: the utlisation of skills that rely on part wizardry and part deception for their craft to work. It'll be an interesting next couple of years, I am sure.
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The Monster Raving Loony candidate got twice as many votes as the Cut Tax on Diesel and Petrol candidate. So much for the Express's 'Crusade'!
The real losers though, IMO, are the LibDems: at one time they would have been the natural recipients of an anti-goverment vote, but instead they've been left on the side.
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22 CEH:
Well Charles there's no denying that there's a lot of happiness out there today. It really seems that your ideas are taking hold here. I for one are happy as are many others on this blog. Whoops ... perhaps not everyone is happy. I don't think dear old Gordon is happy. I think I might send him an email: Dear Gordon, be happy and maybe spread a little more happiness, How? resign! I think this will increase the general level of happiness even more, don't you?
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How fickle the electorate are- from Labour to Tory- like it was a better flavour crisps! Or have the two parties swapped sides so much that we can no longer tell who's for social responsibility and who's for number one?!!!
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Why doesn't Brown and his peculiar gang get the message and call an election? The country is in a mess and he is blaming international factors that only a few years ago he said we were immune from, due to his diligent stewardship. The man is a moron and should be banished to his constituency.
There is no support or credibility left. The people are speaking and will continue to do so. Can we now have a little more democracy to affect change?
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I think that people are over reacting to the importnace of this by-election and looking back through past ones, i came across this one -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid_Staffordshire_by-election%2C_1990
Now the circumstances were quite similar (i.e. government struggling etc) and labour made a 24% swing that day (much bigger than the Tories last night), yet it was the Tories who won the election 2 years later, which is when the next General election will be (and i can vote at last!). 2 years is a long time in politics
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I think #11 has it bang on- this wasn't yet a pro vote for the Tories (who definately appear to be developing a Tory third way). This was a vote in anger about a Govt that is increasingly perceived as out of control.
The turning point here is that the anger is not just for people like Bill in 'middle england' but is blooming in working class inner cities. Labour's mistake here could be the attempt to be all things to all men because no-one now feels the Govt is on their side.
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If labour MP's don't beleive their party has anyone worthy of being PM (i.e. they don't like brown, and can see no replacement) then they have a duty to let the people of the UK chose for themselves.
Brown cancelled the last election because he wanted time to show us what he has planned.
Well he has had that time and shown us, can we have our general election now please?
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I forgot to add: Dear Gordon, Even now the thrilliband brothers are plotting your demise, but don't worry just be happy.
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The electorate have rejected these and more:
o Nepotisim
o Gordon brown - Unelectable
o The over taxation of the middle class cash cow
o Taxing the prudent and careful members of the elderly population
o Ineptitude of the prime minister
Return to the backroom Mr Brown!
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@ 20. I can remember a prospective Prime Minister getting an easy ride by the media, right up until and beyond the election. Tony Blair in 1997. He went to the country on the thinnest manifesto in history. If you remember the ONLY promises he made were on a small credit card sized bit of card. 5 promises and that's your lot. Everything else was merely an "aspiration" in other words meaningless. Cameron should not reveal his hand until the moment the General election is called. The nation will have plenty of time to analyse his manifesto and make a decision then.
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The bully Cameron is probably happy, and grinning like a fool as the crumbs of victory roll down his shirt but what he's creating is argument and division between people. Marketing relies on making people miserable so they rush out and buy the product. Consumption may bring a short term buzz but it never lasts.
Look at what the Tories lead has done to people in here: selective with facts, taking sides, and arguments rolling on and on. This is the left/right, management/worker, rich/poor division Britain needs to shake off yet Cameron is seizing on it because he is weak and too impatient for victory. This is not moral or good for the country.
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Gifted Gordon is the Conservative Party's best asset! Remember why Operation Foxley was called off?
GC
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It was great political drama last night: Nu Labour and Gordon Brown getting Crewe-cified on live TV.
The best that can be said of Hazel Blears appearance on Question Time was that she wasn't any of the other Nu Labour toothless harpies. And, strangely enough, not one senior government figure was available to represent the Party on the By-Election Special other than Chris Bryant whose performance was - er - pants.
Isn't Schadenfreude a wonderful thing.
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The signal New Labour would push the Conservative party into the wildnerness for the the last 11 years was Wirral South only 20 plus miles away from Crewe and Nantwich, this was only 3 months before the General . Will Gordon Brown be brave enough to ask the the public to support him in the same time frame .....doubt it so, bet he wished he had not didthered and called the election last November.
Time is on Brown's side but are his troops going to put up with 2 years of "I'm the bestman for the job" he has to deliver, deliver, deliver.
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I don't think Labour are mortally wounded yet, long term incumbent governments have been thrashed in by-elections before and still managed to pull it back, but unless Gordon Brown raises his game massively in the next few months you'd have to suspect that the clamour a new leader would be deafening.
Brown has been a disaster so far, after so long hankering after the job, he finally gets it and flounders, he's a blindfolded man in a field full of rakes, stumbling from one smack in the face to the next. This is the man who convinced his party that Blair was an electoral liability, hard to credit at the moment.
Tony Blair is presumably in bed with a virulent case of schadenfreude right about now.
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STOP PRESS : Update on C_E_H
I am unreliably informed that C_E_H has been promoted to "Chief Bringer of Sunshine and Happiness to Gordon Brown."
According to unnamed sources, GB called for C_E_H to report to his office at 8am this morning (earlier if possible). The request was made immediately after the Crewe and Nantwich result.
When C_E_H asked what would happen to Hazel Blears without him he was told by one of GB's lackies that GB would bring in an almost undetectable stealth tax to pay for a high stool for her, so that she could use a normal computer and not rely on her laptop which needs a new Strategy card. Whether this will be a new Strategy card or just an upgrade of the now infamous "More of the Same" card is unknown.
I believe that C_E_H on this news accepted and that a warmish glow is now in the Cabinet Room of 10 Downing Street. It however is very weak compared to the almost sun strength glow that is eminating from Conservative Central Office.
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What scares me now is the concessions Gordon will make to the Unions this summer given his own precarious position and the insolvency of the Labour party.
There is still a lot of damage he can do in the next two years.
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I think the lesson New Labour need to learn from this election is that negative campaigning doens't work. When they went down the "Tory Toff" line, it was almost if they were telling the voters in Crewe, "We have no reason why you should vote for us". THIS is what lost them Scotland, if they had campaigned on their merits and not slagging of the SNP then maybe they would still be in power there.
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#38 - is that true? I can't remember the detail of that election campaign as I was out of the country at the time. Be interesting to hear what other people think - esp the bloggers on here who are happy to recall history as it really happened, and not necessarily through the prism of their own political persuasion! (and I do think there are a few of them, on both sides).
It's all about the GE now, isn't it? Will the media give Cameron an easy ride - well, if the editors continue to think that Brown bashing is what the public want to hear (ie, it will sell papers) then probably yes would be my guess. My other concern is that the govt will go all out for (more) short term policies to try and claw back some good will from the public.
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The only downside here is that with two years before they have to call an election, IngSoc have two years to get their revenge in early. Two more years of damage to Britain and creeping authoritarianism.
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Charles E H. Its a bit rich for a NuLabRat to use the phrase 'selective with the facts' as an accusation of anyone else. A bit like Bill Clinton lecturing about fidelity.
The individuals of this nation, poor and middle class alike are suffocating under the highest tax burden ever. This at a time when inflation is raging and most are suffering 5-6% real pay cuts p.a. No right minded person can lay the crude price, for example, at the feet of GB but Ed Balls summed up the government attitude to the electorate perfectly with his 'Who cares' blurt. We are considered NuLab cash cows to be milked to de-hydration and are then forced to watch that milk poured down the drain.
Edward Timpson was absolutely correct in his assertion that GB 'doesn't get it'. Nor do any other members of this government as demonstrated by Hazel Blears on QT last night. Does Cameron get it? We shall have to wait and see but I suspect he could not possibly be more out of touch with the Joe Public.
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After listening to Labour Ministers and spokesmen this morning, I have concluded that the Sub-Prime Minister has decided to rewrite an old saying.
Gordon's new law of practical politics "When you're in a hole, KEEP digging".
Unfortunately for Snow Brown and his cabinet of dwarves, this fairy tale will not have a happy ending (for them at least).
Long they manage to dig through to Australia, the sides of the hole will collapse, and bury Gordon Brown, his cabinet, and the Labour Party in an electoral landslide.
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At last the voters are giving New Labour the resounding message that it, and th eTories need to hear.
This govt. has wasted huge sums of money on socially re-engineering the country. It hasn't worked. Look at any measure from school achievements to the latest figures showing that the money spent on policing and youth rehab hasn't improved re offending one jot!
The message? simple a percentage of the people in the UK have no interest in work, social behaviour, involvement in communities etc. This percentage are quite happy for the tax payers to fund their lifestyle and contribute nothing.
Concentrate on helping the rest of us to work together to combat fuel and food costs. Stop wasting money on the wasters.
Help those who look after themselves, and build a cohesive community around them.
Every child and every adult are not 'equal' so stop wasting time money and effort to make them so.#
Novo
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Charles E Hartwidge (#39)
I'm no fan of Cameron but calling him a bully seems pretty childish. He seems a nice enough bloke (for a Tory) and definitely does not have a bullying style.
And most of the things you accuse Cameron of are exactly what New Labour have been doing, especially in their disgraceful campaign at Crewe, which Harriet Harman tried desperately to deny contributed to their drubbing yesterday.
My greatest hope is now for an early election, a hung Parliament and genuine electoral reform so we never get a large majority for any party on 36% of the vote from 25% of the electorate.
I know people say coalitions lead to weak government but if this is strong government, give me a weak one any day. A coalition government would be much less likely to start an illegal war, lock up 80,000+ people, introduce 42 day detention and ID cards. They would have to listen to the people and not pander to the Daily Mail and Daily Express.
Moreover:
It's now gone beyond the inability of Gordon Brown to lead! We need a more fundamental reappraisal of what the UK is for, which may even mean its partial or complete breakup.
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The point of having a leader is for them to lead. Gordon Brown's government may well have plans (Stalinist 'tractor plans' or others), and they have a Civil Service to look after the administration - but I don't see anything that looks remotely like leadership. Leadership includes atrributes like being visible, taking control of direction, and responding to circumstances.
GB did not campaign in Crewe and has not said anything about it since. Having ministers bleat about 'listening', 'feeling pain' and 'economic circumstances' (largely self-inflicted) does not constitute taking control and responding.
So GB totally fails the leadership test. The Labour party needs to consider its position here. Do they want to be 'tractor planned' into ignominious and lasting defeat, or do they plan to do something about it ?
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People are tired of this government intruding in and micromanaging every aspect of their life.
The latest proposal to record all emails and phone calls gives some indication of what this government will be like if elected to for another term.
What is important now to is to simply kick this government. I cannot get enthusiastic about a Conservative government but the current government just has to go.
Give Labour another two terms in office and they will turn the country into another North Korea.
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Finally the British have woken up to the epic incompetance of this Government.
They are sick of being taxed to oblivion, lied to, cheated and dictated to like some third world junta.
Unfortunalty those involved still feel they can insult the British people. Chris Bryant, imediatly after last nights results insulted all thos people of Crew and Nantwich with his sanctamonious drivel that whatever the people vote, he and his party still think they are right and the voters wrong. Brown is the right man to get us our of a mess he says ! He forgets Browns waste and dismal policy got us here in the first place.
An insult yet again to the people of Britain and in particular, to the people of Crew and Nanthwich.
R Chamberlain
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DrTimClark #11 got it right when he said "Labour's mistake here could be the attempt to be all things to all men because no-one now feels the Govt is on their side." as this is the perennial problem with Socialism and it's absurd preoccupation with 'everybody is equal'. The only equality with Socialism is equality in misery since leveling down to the lowest common denominator always produces extreme anger and discontent rather than the docile subservient serfs that Nu-Labour would prefer.
Well done Crewe and Nantwich you've shown the same resolve as those famed Socialist Tolpuddle martyrs in rejecting serfdom and sending a shock to the establishment.
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Reading Charles E comments reminds me what opposition is all about, and all Charles E can do is moan and personalise his attacks.
You only have to deliver policies when you are in power, sadly Charles is missing this point.
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Do we really need to swap on bunch of conservatives for another? It is all really about economics. But I ask everyone has the UK's economic performance been so good? If it had been why is it always the economy that causes us to change one set of conservatives for another.
The agenda is set by our permanent government - our civil servants. Mrs Thatcher, for all he huge failings understood this and purged the place when she arrived. Our civil servants run the place and like politicians need purging once in a while. They get increasingly out of touch with reality. Their front men (and women), the politicians, are sacrificed to keep them in power, but they, the civil servants must be changed too. Fire permanent secretaries! Or perhaps, we should ensure that once appointed to the senior ranks no postholder should stay in power for more than 5 years.
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Hi Nick, whom in the cabinet do you feel is vulnerable? My first thoughts are Alistair Darling but getting rid of your chancellor does look rather desperate.
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Ms Dunwoody believes the result was because the Tory voters turned out this time.
She obviously has the correct mindset to be a Nu Labour politician.
Ignore the facts, believe the spin.
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Re: 15 "Why, oh why, can we not get a government that is actually fit to govern?"
Don't they say that you get the government that you deserve? The British people have been quite happy to sit back for the last ten years and let Tony and Gordon get on with it, and now we are reaping the results of our apathy.
What else do they say? If you don't like what's going in politics, get involved and do something about it, 'cos it just doesn't do to sit on your hands when it comes to voting and then whinge about the government on blogs like these. (Nothing personal no. 15.)
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C_E_H,
I've enjoyed your (fairly) balanced posts over the last couple of weeks.
We all know which side of the fence you are on and I for one have respected your point of veiw as I genuine voice, with excellent points, but I think post #39 does you no credit what so ever. I know NL got hammered last night and I know the likes of dhwilkinson and Kiwilegs will be viciously lashing out very shortly but you?
Come now can I put that down to getting out of bed on the wrong side?
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There is always talk of the government being given a bloody nose. This was a battering with baseball bats and leaving it for dead. You'd have thought, with ten years to prepare for the job, that Gordon Brown would have done a better job. He's been a miserable failure. The muggers in my metaphor would have nicked his credit cards too were it not for the fact that Brown has borrowed so much that any future Tory government is going to have to pay it all back. In 1997 the finances were just fine. Now the public knows what a mess Brown has made and wants to be rid of him. Experience is no good if you don't learn from it.
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Labour are dead in the water. Harriet Harman says it's "because 'people are feeling the pinch' and it's all down to rising prices.
No, Harriet, it's about a lot more than that - it started with the Iraq war and the disillusionment has continued as a result of the kind of authoritarian policies you'd expect from a military junta, or in this case, a Labour party that has lost touch with its core principles and supporters.
We've really been governed by a closet Tory party and now Labour have opened the way to the real thing taking over.
At least we'll know where we stand - and hopefully in ten years time we might have a real Labour party to vote for again.
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Ok, so the opposition party has won a by-election in mid-term.
This is not exactly new or news of any worth that couldn't have been cut and pasted from any decade since the Boer war.
Now that Dave and Gideon have won a temporary 'protest vote', could they actually now tell us what their policies are that actuall won them that vote?
A General Election (a return to the fold in Crewe and Nantwich) willl see a policy showdown, policy for policy and no chance whatsoever will Conservatives turn over the so-called swing seats.
No chance whatsoever.
Gideon can't do it because we are fed up with picking up the tab for politician's mistakes.
Better the devil you know and it is 'impossible theory' that states Gordon and his party have everything to lose by not listening and acting.
Gordon is neither deaf to the electorates concerns and he is certainly capable of acting upon those concerns.
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I'm normally fairly neutral and dish out the same advice to left and right, and top and bottom, that I swallow myself but the antics of the Tories and Liberals make that a bit tricky.
The Labour party and Gordon Brown have made mistakes but the opposition parties are sowing a bit of bad karma themselves, and that isn't without its consequences.
If anything, this arguing is getting out of hand so I might just trim back to a near pure Zen Buddhist position or quit posting until things have calmed down. Don't need the grief and life is short.
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skynine wrote:
'And doesn't Ms "grin and spin" Hazel Blears really annoy you with her "Auntie Hazel knows best" speech-lets and the way she flicks her head like a lizard? Every time she appears on TV the Tories must add 2% to their poll rating.
I so agree with this comment. I thought I was the only one who can't stand this woman!
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#57 - oh come on, you might be hurting today, but some of this stuff is just delusional. Think you might be better off just giving the dyed in the wool conservatives a day in the sun rather than giving it the conspiracy theory bit.
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An explosion of state spending in the last 8 years or so has utterly wasted billions of taxpayers money. The chickens are now coming home to roost. Harriet Harman says The Government will help hard pressed families to overcome their present plight but there is no money left in the kitty. I can't see how they are going fulfil their promises to reverse the situation. The scenario is very depressing for many people who put their faith in Nu Labour and have been badly burnt in the process.
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Well said K_Porter,
There are so many negative posts about labour, it seems people have regretted voting Labour back in 1997. I remember that people were fed up with the Tories and blamed them for the interest rates, unemployment and social cohesion. I also remember that people were significantly more negative about the Tories at this stage of their government.
I am not applauding this government but am I the only person to remember worrying about interest rates? How many people asking for Labour to go now, will be doing the same thing after 3 Tory terms?
Don't vote out the govt in power when you have problems, vote in the one that you know will fix them!
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So the Crewe and Nactwich voters didn't like Dunwoody mk II.
Would this mean a massive majority for Cameron's Tories in two years? We'll have to wait and see.
The persistent problem that I see at PMQs is Cameron sniping at Brown, but nothing of any substance from the Tories. Those of us who remember the long dark 17 years of Thatcher and Major know exactly what will happen if the Tories come back in.
On the other hand, if Cameron is reinventing them by stealing Labour's cloths, which seems to be the case, what's to choose between Tory and Labour now? Will we end up with the same ideas but a different cabinet and PM?
Brown on the other hand comes across a a very dull man, but I don't think that's bad, just he needs to learn to let his cabinet speak a bit more - let them do their jobs!
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#66 - and GaryElsby, who on earth is going to take any you say seriously after your ridiculous electioneering on here over the past few days?
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GaryElsby wrote:
Ok, so the opposition party has won a by-election in mid-term.
This is not exactly new or news of any worth that couldn't have been cut and pasted from any decade since the Boer war.
Now that Dave and Gideon have won a temporary 'protest vote', could they actually now tell us what their policies are that actuall won them that vote?
Head in the sand stuff from a Labour party activist who canvassed in Crewe and Nantwich. We will see in 2 years time whether you are right. The persuasion tactics used by your Party in the lead up to The By Election backfired horribly and don't support your view!
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Michael Howard, ex-Tory leader said a while back that the only way the Tories would get back into power was if the economy turned sour.
A very honest statement and it now appears to be coming true.
I believe it will end up thus in the 2010 General Election:
England - Tory win.
Scotland - SNP win.
Wales - Plaid win.
Looking forward from that event, obviously the Scots will depart the Union with the Welsh in hot pursuit.
So, tiny English political entities, such as the English Democrat party, which we dimly just about perceived last night in Crewe and Nantwich, should expect to grow a lot bigger post-2010.
Plus we should also see some new English political entities, I am hoping that the English will elect more genuinely independent people.
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@dhwilkinson. This is weakest, most appallingly lame argument I've heard since Paris Hilton starting discussing particle physics with Stephen Hawking.
You are of course entitled to your opinion on this government and GB but I suggest you enage your brain and make it an informed one. Alternatively, stick with your 1970s Trade Union view that red is always best. Then we can start the 3 day week and pile up the corpses in the street. Outside your house, if you don't mind. Your choice.
I speak as someone who has voted both ways over the years but can understand when my country is being raped and pillaged as a political uberclass tries ever more desperately to cling to power. I do not like it.
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Is this government holed below the water mark? Prediction is a tricky business, but it is diffficult to see a future for Labour in government. They have failed several competence tests and the legislative programme seems to lack inspiration.
Not only is SS Labour holed, she seems to be rudderless.
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Finally people are waking up.
New Labour have massively increased the tax burden faced by the UK. Had that huge increase in tax been matched with a clearly visible improvement in public services I would be entirely willing to stop voting Tory and vote Labour for more of the same.
But looking at the reality, as opposed to massaged statistics, tells a very different story.
Crime is apparently falling, while we see teenagers being knifed on our streets almost every week.
Education is apparently improving, but universities and employers are bemoaning the fact that candidates lack basic skills.
Inflation is officially only 2-3%, but the prices we actually pay for the things we need are rising by anything up to 10-15% (or more still, if petrol and diesel are considered).
The NHS is seeing record levels of investment, but at the same time hospital-acquired infections are constantly rising. Few people can find an NHS dentist.
Waiting lists are down, but people experience queues to get onto the waiting list in the first place and doctors complain of being expected to treat people to hit political targets rather than meet clinical need.
Council taxes are rising constantly, apparently to pay for an ever-increasing army of jobsworths who either do nothing of value (5-a-day coordinators etc) or pry into our daily lives and harass us (e.g. the ongoing fiasco over rubbish collections). It is truly offensive to expect me to pay someone through my taxes when their only function is to fine me for trivial misdemeanors such as putting a little bit too much rubbish out.
Fuel costs are constantly rising to encourage the use of public transport, but outside of major cities public transport is all but non-existent, and even within major cities it is slow, dirty and extremely unpleasant to use (try standing for half an hour in a jam-packed commuter train on a Friday afternoon in June with no air conditioning).
I can honestly say I can't see any way whatsoever that Labour have improved anything at all.
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Can anybody else tolerate anymore of Alistair Darling, Jacqui Smith, Harriet Harman and Hazel Blears reeling off their tired script of 'it is the right thing to do', 'I don’t accept that', 'Gordon Brown is the right man for the job' nonsensical stock lines of defense for what is a truly incompetent government and PM...?
Do they not realize what everyone else knows? Are they not aware by blindly sticking to this hymn sheet that they are losing the last bit of credibility and integrity they may have left? Is it me?
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GaryElsby
Here's what you said a couple of days ago:
"I spent yesterday in Crewe and Nantwich canvassing for Labour. I spotted a lonely Conservative Poster . . . Everywhere around the Constituency, Labour posters are proudly on display with only a scattering of Lib Dem posters. . . . I spoke to everyone I saw and all but one couple were voting Labour.
The odd couple were very concerned about the 10p tax fiasco and had not made their mind up yet.
My view of what I have seen personally is . . . that the class war campaign has been a runaway success."
Now apparently Labour didn't win in Crewe! You say that its just a temporary protest vote, and Crewe will return to the fold.
You were so sure that Labour would win, and you were wrong. What makes you so sure it was just a protest vote now?
Incidentally, you did say one thing that makes sense (I know, I'm not supposed to agree with you). You said "we are fed up with picking up the tab for politicians' mistakes". Too true. Only I know you don't mean THIS government's mistakes, do you.?
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dhwilkinson @57 and elsewhere on this blog reacted to the Crewe and Nantwich result by declaring: "THis democracy is a joke!"
Typical leftie: loves democracy only when the people vote as instructed. He must be related to Vivienne Westwood who famously said: "Boris as mayor? Unthinkable. It just exposes democracy as a sham, especially if people don't vote for Ken - he's the best thing in politics. Unthinkable."
Meanwhile Chuck E Hogwash @67 threatens to throw his toys out of the pram. Don't go Chuck! What will we do for a chuckle? How will be enlightened without any of your Sodu-ku says pearls of wisdom?
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theoldgoat
you complain about sniping from Cameron at PMQs, and hearing nothing of substance form him.
Could I remind you that it is PRIME MINISTER'S QUESTIONS. Gordon is supposed to answer questions, he never does (other than to blather on about ancient history, long term decisions, right man for the job etc). If Gordon won't answer questions in the Parliamentary slot put aside for him to do so, why should Cameron?
Incidentally, this week Gordon was asked whether the 2.7 billion would continue next year. He refused to say. He was asked if he agreed with figures showing that if it didn't, some 18 million people would be hit in the pocket. He refused to answer. Incidentally, his chancellor had already answered the first one the previous night, so we all knew the answer already and he STILL wouldn't answer it!
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Lots of comments about this is bye election and voters will return to the Labour fold for a General Election. Not where I come from!!!
The general tone is
1 We've given them plenty of time and money and they've wasted both.
2 If he was going to do a U-turn why didn't Brown just say the 10% tax wasn't properly thought through and he will reinstate it until we have got the change right and NO-ONE loses.
3 Labour have run out of ideas.
4 They want to control every aspect of our lives.
5 We agree that the poor and children need help but what about us. You can't spend all of our money on such a narrow grouping.
6 Brown is just pure dull. He wanted the job, back-stabbed to get it and he can't do it. He should go.
These are not my words, although I agree with them, they are from people I have spoken to.
As for support for Labour, anything is just lukewarm
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On Question Time last night the very existence of The Labour Party was put into question by one of the panelists. It was originally set up as an arm of The Trade Unions to represent the interests of their member workers. Now that The Unions are no longer the force they were and Gordon Brown seems to be stealing the clothes of the other major parties in addition to adversely affecting the plight of the poorer citizens in this country what exactly is their role?
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Brown is treading in Blair`s privatise,privatise,privatise footsteps, it is time to clear out the New Labour puppets and get back to Labour policies.
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#29 I agree that this is a poor night for the LibDems. Compare Simon Hughes' eloquent arguing on Question Time and his clear policy proposals with Blears' rattling out of the prepared party line. But so what if this doesn't translate into votes, and by that I mean real electoral support and not single issue (Iraq) protest votes. Why don't they play up their Social Democratic roots? And their liberal anti-authoritarianism?
#52 I also hope we have a hung parliament leading to PR. Our adversarial system, it can be argued, is weaker than the more consensual approach of Nordic/Germanic countries where coalitions/grand coalitions are the norm. In our system, a government can come in and completely undo everything the last government did (hence endless 'reform' and 'relaunches' of the NHS and schools). More realistically, parties have to scrap over the few percent of voters that decide which party with 35% of the vote rules. Parties thus converge on a false centre ground and become largely indistinguishable which diminishes voter choice. Coalition governments CAN be strong as their policies at least have majority support and are argued over between coalition partners, rather than being rubber stamped by compliant MPs looking for a ministerial position. A complaint of PR is that it is hard to kick people out if they can simply join the next coalition, but at our last election, 65% of people tried to kick out Labour to no avail! Of course both ways of doing things have pros and cons, but at least with PR voter preferences are actually translated into electoral representation.
Judging from last night Cameron would still win outright in either case!
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STOP STOP PRESS : C_E_H Resigns
After only less than 3 hours in the post, C_E_H has I am informed by an un-named source has resigned his post as "Chief of Sunshine and Happiness to Gordon Brown."
The source told me that at his first meeting his light and happiness quickly dissipated when he discovered that GB was discussing what spin he can put out to keep his position. "ANYTHING will do" he told his flunkys- "ANYTHING. I waited 10 years for this job and the fact that I am unfit for purpose will not stop me staying here."
C_E_H, I understand was so distraught at finding that the Labour government is only smoke and mirrors and no substance that he ran out of the office to meditate in a quiet darkened room."
More soon.
PS Hazel Blears' laptop has been fitted with an updated "More of the Same " card since the New Strategy card is still on the drawing board and won't be ready for quite a period. It is being developed with the same crew that is working on the NHS system that is four years behind schedule and vastly over budget.
Sound familiar!!!
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The people have spoken and the Prime Minister isn't listening.
What this vote tells everyone is that this government and its very over rated Prime Minster have not only run out of steam but they have hit the buffers.
It is time that Gordon understands this and does the honourable thing and call a general election then we can get people into Government who are sincere about the work and can get on with it.
Might also be a good time for Gobbals Mick to be put to pasture.
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Hopefully, it will mean the beginning of the end of this appalling, incompetent and devisive apology for a government. It is going to be an uphill task for any new administration to rebuild the nation after this I am afraid.
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Those seeking an understanding of the current political situation would do well to read "The Political Brain" by Drew Westen. Although it mainly relates to the US, it describes how you need to engage the emotions to win. Blair was a master, Brown is failing at it. People don't like him. More at politicalwasp.blogspot.com.
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#39, Charles I sometimes wonder if you are for real.
Labour, the party that has brought in great swathes of legislation to stop discrimination on grounds of culture, race, age, sex, sexual orientation etc. runs an election campaign which discriminates on grounds of the wealth of one's parents (regardless of their philanthropy). Surely that is a divisive tactic, and at the very least not exactly PC in this great age of blessed PC-ness.
And on mispresenting the facts, do you seriously think Gordon Brown is being truthful when he tells us that debt/gbp is 37%? What about PFI? What about public sector pensions? What about Northern Rock? What about Network Rail? What about the great £2.7Bn borrowed tax giveaway? My estimate is that debt/gbp is more like 47% than 37%.
What about moving from RPI to CPI, which has no housing costs, no council tax and no bread in the index although it does have dvd players (that common staple of the great british diet).
What about the EU referendum manifesto promise?
The list of lies goes on an on.
Even if your assertions on the Tories were true, which I do not believe, New Labour have been guilty of those charges to an even greater degree.
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"Labour's class war campaign tactics backfired in Crewe and Nantwich."
What genius at Labour HQ decided to portray them as the party of the "working classes" when they'd just abolished the 10p tax rate?
The mind boggles at their sheer political naivety.
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"#57(me) - oh come on, you might be hurting today, but some of this stuff is just delusional. Think you might be better off just giving the dyed in the wool conservatives a day in the sun rather than giving it the conspiracy theory bit."
Sorry? what conspiracy theory? The Conservatives do think they own law and order. And they do think that they are the only party that cares about families. and the police thing I meant the Police federation speech. although still probably overstating it a bit,Not vote rigging or anything else. Sorry, I meant the day before yesterday. I type this stuff very quickly and forget to check it. Sorry.
@76 is a bit of a conspiracy theory though. But I think there is some truth in it.
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About time that David Cameron was challenged don't you think? I David Cameron wants to be prime Minister then perhaps he should talk about David Cameron instead of talking about The Prime Minister all of the time.
A film critic knows criticise but hasn't a clue how to make a film. David Cameron can criticise mostly in an outrageously hypocritical way like accusing the Prime Minister of to much PR and Presentation. But that doesn't mean he can be a good prime minister.
Speaking of hypocrisy. I would like to congratulate David Cameron for his Nasty personality assassination campaign. I personally think David Cameron shouting abuse in PMQs is a sign of his weakness. You see it in the natural world. Small weak animals compensate by using aggression as a form of defence.
The Conservatives had a lot of help from their friends in the police force at the police federation conferenc. Is anyone else fed up with the fact that the Conservatives think they own 'Law and Order'. and think they are the only party that likes families.
Overall, a victory for the party of hot air.
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I regret that Gordon Brown is just not up to the job. All those years of plotting and waiting and when it comes down to it, he is just not adept enough to lead his party or this country.
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Nick is it not simply going to be that Labour are not electable therefore the Tories have to win under our electoral system - which I would change in a jiffy.
So the Tories have to win and in my world if Cameron does not fall into the trap of considering himself a demi-god leader held back by his short-sighted people, as Blair did, then he will probably get two terms.
But the real issue, which NOBODY is really taking seriously in my only slightly hysterical view, is that the political landscape will be permanently changed after 2010 and the Scottish Independence Referendum. First Thatcher and then Blair have decimated Labour and the Tories outside England. The Lib Dems will pick up votes but as I see it we are approaching a situation where the Nationalist parties cannot lose.
So even approaching 2010 with lame duck Scottish members of cabinet if they do "a Crewe" and try to buy off electorates - at the probable expense of interested onlookers the English - and still lose then there will be no UK and Labour will have alienated the English.
It won't be just Labour that get the blame when the analysis is done but ....
So you could say that Crewe is likely to be a significant event in the break up of the UK as it shows Brown to be a lame duck. The wrong man in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I see no contingency planning by the government (IT; security policy; nuclear weapons locations; energy policy; EU contributions; the "special relationship") for that break up and therefore this may make T5 seem like a management paradigm of how to effect change.
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.88 - "Brown is treading in Blair`s privatise,privatise,privatise footsteps, it is time to clear out the New Labour puppets and get back to Labour policies."
I don't think that's what a lot of Middle Englanders voted for back in '97 though, is it? I'm sure the Tory turned New Labour voters would shriek if they thought their votes in '97, '01 and '05 would end up as left wing as the original Labour.
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Clearly the Tories are in the ascendancy-as we know politics is as much about events, timing, and good luck as policies. All three factors have gone against GB, and for DC.
Tory boy Dave must not talk policy at any price. He must not saddle himself with commitments or promises-events are taking him upwards and onwards.Politics today is about who is to blame-and GB stands proud in that department, so why should our new champion describe what he would do in the current circumstances-best to keep schtum.
DC will arrive in No10 bright and very public school-uttering phrases about "much to do" and "unifying the nation",but do not hold your breath Nick, like every PM he will be a servant to events, and it will be his turn to take the blame.
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I think it is also time to start asking the question "what is the Labour party for in 2008?". The "NU" bit is clearly intellectually and morally bankrupt, evidently only existed as a means to grab power and probably ought to break away to form a Social Democratic grouping with the left of the Lib Dems. The "OLD" bit was formed to represent a working class that no longer meaningfully exists and to fight class wars that clearly no longer resonate with the public. I think we can expect the death-throes of the OLD, via the good offices of Brendan Barber, Bob Crow et al, to cost us all a vast amount of time, money and misery over the next two years. A short term price worth paying for long term redemption perhaps?
Meanwhile may I be the first to wish Chuck E Hogwash the best in his retirement - I'm not sure what you are smoking Chuck but I wouldn't mind some of it.
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#94 - interesting thought on RPI to CPI.
If RPI had been retained and the BofE had targetted controlling that figure, I wonder if interest rates would have been marginally higher during the last 11 years? Would this have lead to less profligate lending (and borrowing - let's not forget that the consumer has to shoulder some of the blame), less of a housing bubble, and less of the mess we're in now?
Of course, on the flip side, low interest rates generally promote growth - so who knows what it might have done to the economy as a whole. Bigger brains than mine may be able to make more informed comments.
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I quite understand why Moderators blocked @76 maybe I went a little too far on the bias front.
But the flawed 'Have your say' point I think is valid. As we have discovered on this blog. there are people using the 'Have you say' site with multiple BBC memberships. This allows them to flood the website with anti gordon brown or immigration comments effectively blocking any other opinion. It also allows these multiple memberships to recommend their own memberships and fellow supporters several times.
If you take the points of view on that site seriously as public opinion, then this is a very serious matter. Also this site also allows the uncontrolled spread of false information. Remember the £3000 Northern Rock Tax? That was started by R. Peston dividing 10bn loans and guarentees figure by the number of taxpayers. this was largely misinterpreted and the myth was spread across the 'Have your say' site. As this kind of interactivity is mainly used by the Affluent with their commendable success. But less comendable ability to whinge(Conservatives Basically). This is relevant.
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Gordon Brown's stock response ("nothing to do with me; it's those darned Americans' fault for starting a global recession") sums up the reason why labour have absolutely no chance in the next general election.
If labour don't even realise that people are blaming them for the problems we've got then they're dead before they've even started election-wise.
Gordon Brown's arrogance is breathtaking; I hope the media hang him out to dry on this one when he gets interviewed and just keeps mentioning "the global situation" and "the pinch."
Labour; we've all had enough of your lies and negligence; please call a general election now before you do any more damage to the country.
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Posters keeps saying Cameron won't tell us what his policies are. That is because everytime he does Labour steals it!!!
There is a saying in business that
"The best time to do a deal is when the other side has no alternatives."
While Labour continue to self destruct all Cameron has to do is sit back, stoke the fire and wait. As Labour becomes more and more unelectable he will then feed policies or snippets of policies to make Labour's position even worse.
When there is no hope for Labour he will then strike with policies that no-one will turn down.
Notice that I say Labour, not Brown, because he in now damaged goods and unelectable
PS Where is C_E_H - still in the darkened room?
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It is a bad result for Labour, however Labour had a 21% swing from the Tories in Mid Staffs in 1989 and still The Tories won the 1992 election under John Major
It's time the BBC start focussing on the Tories policies (or the lack of them). It's amazing that some bloggers accuse Labour of spinning when Cameron was a PR man himself!!
By-elections and local elections are a luxury for the electorate as they can kick the government without having to change it. The Crew by-election win for the Tories demonstrates this.
When the election is called will the electorate want to go back to 15% interest rates, 3m unemployed etc. under the Tories. I don't think so!!
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41 ScepticMax:
Isn't Scadenfreude a wonderful thing
I
I said the very same thing after the local elections to a slightly confused member of New Labour. His response: Naw, it's no better than any other german beer. I ask you: what are we to do with them?
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Just how do you tell a Prime Minister that inflation is based on the costs associated with daily living -- food, drink, rates, utility bills, transport costs, etc... -- and not on the cost of televisions, iPods and other such fripperies. The fact that HE, Gordon Brown, is the man that brought in these changes just so the figures masked the true picture SHOULD be reflected in his downfall.
Since he engineered his move to number 10 he has tried to do both jobs, that of Prime Minister AND Chancellor. The vote last night shows that I'm not the only person who thinks he's no good at either.
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Last night's result was a "shocker". But it is mid-term and there are 2 years to go before the General Election. The loons on here calling for a General Election now need to remember Labour (not Brown or Blair) have a mandate from 2005.
The weekend papers will be interesting. Will Charles Clarke, Stephen Byers, Alan Milburn etc call for the PM to resign. This is the classic mistake for Labour to make.
Labour has to hold its nerve. If it does not they are finished and last night's result will have been the tipping point.
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I have to say I'm pretty amazed that Gordon Brown has not said anything about this yet? Does anyone know if he is due to speak to the press today.
Retreating into his bunker is only going to make him appear more and more isolated.
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Nick,
Do you need help with your CV? Unemployment is forecast for Auntie-Beeb's elites.
I'd put you forward to Sky, but they don't seem to have any opportunities at the mo'. Anyhows, I think Jon Sopal would be ahead of the queue before you. Ta'ra!
[Reposted at jezzasexiles.com.]
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The good news for Gordon is that he has time.
Time to come up with a just tax policy for those on low incomes ; time restore the pensions funds he raided; time to pay the police what he owes them; time to cut fuel taxes; time to break the utilities cartel; time to get the troops out of Iraq; time for a referendum on Europe; time to shoot the Tory fox.
Will he do any of these? Unlikely. We are witnessing the most determined case of political suicide since the poll tax.
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@77 Marco bargain holidays (or whatever) Sorry I had to get 76 removed because I made an error
ScepticMax Wrote.
"dhwilkinson @57 and elsewhere on this blog reacted to the Crewe and Nantwich result by declaring: "THis democracy is a joke!"
Typical leftie: loves democracy only when the people vote as instructed. He must be related to Vivienne Westwood who famously said: "Boris as mayor? Unthinkable. It just exposes democracy as a sham, especially if people don't vote for Ken - he's the best thing in politics. Unthinkable."
Typical Conservative, anyone who disagrees with them is a leftie. Can't imagine many people being to the right of you. This democracy is a joke! You cant vote for who you want to because of tactical voting. and the parties spend their time slagging each other off. and using PR(public relations) to trick us into voting for them Instead of engaging with the public. and telling us what THEY stand for. That is why 58% is laughingly refered to as a massive turnout. People are fed up of your pathetic little game of politics.
I know you Conservatives think you own this site, But there is a very wide range of opinions out there that deserve to be heard.
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107 njgill
This wasn't just a bye election. It was one of THREE elections.
OK people could register a protest vote in the Locals but London was for autonomous government of London for 4 years. That wasn't a protest vote.
Going back to figures, would I prefer 15% interest rates for a few weeks or 25% inflation (above 10% inflation for years) give me the 15%.
Would I like to go back to the "Winter of Discontent" - not on your Nellie.
Do I want total control of my life with monitoring of my calls and emails - NEVER.
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Have just heard GB on BBC News saying that he is PM because he is the man to sort out the problems.
Can someone in the Labour party remind him that he was not elected by the people, he has no mandate, he has got this country into over £90 Billon in debt, the originator of high fuel prices (75p in every pound in duty) placed 10 Million in debt because of the abolition of the 10P tax rate and then cynically tricking some of the losers into thinking that they are getting a handout to be taken back in the next tax year, increased taxation on cars - another tax to hit the lowest paid, increased unnessary spending, e.g. ID cards, robing from one measure to feed another, i.e. closing down funding to support this dreadful war in Iraq and Afganistan - well I could go on.
And all GB can say is remember 1990 - 1997. I am really tired of the history lesson as really the true history lesson is how New Labour have plundered and squandered from 1997 to 2008!
The bye election was by labour voters saying 'we are fed up' - many who have just got the vote and not interested in GB's history lessons. The 100 Labour MPs in marginal seats including Jacqui Smith and Ed Balls must be considering new jobs.
GB says the people or worried about the economy. I think not. Its the shear misdirection of New Labour and a bad negligent PM.
Would the Conservatives be any better?
Well cannot be any worse than GB and his New Labour government. the problem is the poor state of things that will be inheritated from this lame labour party.
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The only way that Labour have any chance at all of winning the next general election is by ditching Gordon Brown. The man is widely despised. He is a walking Greek tragedy and the electorate intrinsically understand that he is doomed to failure and that his continuing is an affront to fate. Ministers keep coming out and saying that the message is that they are listening to the voters, they understand our pain. Do they think we're stupid? We all want Gordon gone. If you're listening why's he still there?
And this is not personal. Gordon is sacrificing the good of the country for his pathetic little political games. He was a classic tax and spend Chancellor. Does he think we don't see that? If that's what you are, just be it. Do you think we're fooled by the petty little bribes like the 20p tax band? Do you think our votes are bought so cheaply? And you are borrowing to fund it, you are borrowing to cut taxes, with the economy heading for recession. I would rather not have this money in my pocket because you are ruining the public finances to try and buy my vote. I am not stupid and I will not be bought. You are messing up our country, in these cases purely for short term political gain. You are a fool and a liar and if your party don't get rid of you, it will give us enormous pleasure to give you a massive massive kicking in 2009. And you and Blair have ruined politics. If I want to vote Labour, I don't have the option, I can either vote Tory, Lib Dem, or corrupt and incompetent pseudo-Tory. The funny thing is, is that if you weren't so obsessed with stealing voters who would vote Tory anyway and just set out a traditional Labour agenda, we might just have bought it.
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Gordon Brown said this morning that the message he is getting from the by-election defeat is that 'the public wants him to address their concerns about rising prices' (while saying as an aside that is happening all over the world, i.e. it's not my fault).
Isn't it amazing what selective hearing can do for politicians? If he and his government were really listening, what they should be hearing is, to quote Alan Sugar, "You're Fired!!"
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114,
Isn't it strange that when everything goes your way you are a happy camper but then as soon as things go sour you start throwing tripe about...
"This democracy is a joke" - Yeah but it was ok when Labour got in for 3 terms.
"You Conservatives own this site..." - Really? using your own logic from the same post... Perhaps everyone who disagrees with you or slates the government is not automatically a Tory!
Wining on about HYS being bad and how all the Tories are posting etc.. is frankly disingenuous at best and at worst is just sour grapes.
Look as many people here have said, this is a by-election not a general and Jonny M won the last Tory general off the back of losing previous by elections. So perhaps a bit more constructive argument and less moaning would help your cause?
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#99 wrote "But the real issue, which NOBODY is really taking seriously in my only slightly hysterical view, is that the political landscape will be permanently changed after 2010 and the Scottish Independence Referendum."
It is fascinating to speculate how this will pan out post the 2010 General Election (GE).
As I have mentioned, it is not at all unrealistic to expect the GE result to look like this:
England - Tory win.
Scotland - SNP win.
Wales - Plaid win.
Once the Scottish Referendum is out of the way, 'Dave' will then be getting a call from Alex Salmond, saying in effect .. we're off!
That will be the catalyst for Plaid to follow suit.
And hey presto, we English will have our England back again as a political entity in its own right ... then we English can deal with the Tories ... who in my humble opinion, are still a pretty unpleasant shower under the 'caring' veneer.
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In fact it's not just Labour MPs who are out of touch, the whole left-liberal establishment is, inculding those posting on this board suggesting this is mid-term blues. If you want a chance at the next general election you have to act. Your core vote is not coming out because it feels betrayed. Labour has always found it harder to mobilise the core vote and it is collapsing. The point is this - this by-election MAY be a protest vote but come general election time those protest votes MAY not vote Tory but they won't vote Labour either. Game over.
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We've seen David Cameron this morning. Where is Gordon Brown?
If ever there was a time for leadership he should be out there trying to galvanise his forces.
However, I tend to think all but his most loyal bodyguard are retreating while he is in his bunker looking for a short term fix.
How about no tax for anyone for the next year, free slippers for OAPs, soup kitchens on every corner for the poor and needy, mass executions of non-doms and the rich?
Damn, Gordon has pinched my ideas already. Look out everyone.
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Charles_E_H could well retreat into a calm Zen location/condition.
Unfortunately, most people just have to fight through the problems of everyday life. Zen may help, but this government has created such chaos that for many - young and old - there will be no positive outcome for years.
Blair and Brown may have had grand ideas about how to improve the life of the "common man".
Blair now looks like an opportunist who cashed in on his time in office, with not a single glance back at the mess he left behind.
Brown won't be able to cash in, so will be left with a future contemplating how he managed to let things get so bad.
I have no love for a financial services
industry that gets out of hand. I have less love for a government that believes it has every right to tax anything and everything - and spray money around with no regard to the value or worth of its "generosity".
This mob seems to think that there should be laws and rules about everything. Most would say that laws and rules should be straightforward, so anyone can understand them.
Why on earth has Brown made the tax system so complicated? Simple, really. If you make stuff complicated, you need to go to the agents of the State in order to get back what should never have been taken from you in the first place...
Tax - then employ people to administer how the taxes get redistributed - then tax those State staff and you get the illusion of "growth" and improved employment levels.
It takes a while for people to understand what goes on in government. Especially if we all want to believe that "things can only get better". Well they did for Tony Blair...
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122 posters. Mostly fuming at NuLabour and desperate for a Tory Government. Does this mean that the demographic of the NuTory voter is somebody who has the time to waste blogging politics?
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Second spanners @119wrote
Isn't it strange that when everything goes your way you are a happy camper but then as soon as things go sour you start throwing tripe about...
a) "This democracy is a joke" - Yeah but it was ok when Labour got in for 3 terms.
b)"You Conservatives own this site..." - Really? using your own logic from the same post... Perhaps everyone who disagrees with you or slates the government is not automatically a Tory!
__________________________________
a) I was replying to someone who has asked that already and I have replied. I forgot to mention that some people who say vote lib dem and live in a safe labour seat. Could be said to be wasting their time. I dont think so though. Looking forward to the obvious tory witty comment from contributors who fancy themselves as a bit of a william hague.
b) here is what i actually said. You naughty little misquoter!
dhwilkinson@114
"I know you Conservatives think you own this site, But there is a very wide range of opinions out there that deserve to be heard."
I am particularly proud of the 'pathetic little game of politics'. It is particularly apt with both you and septicmax.
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104: dhwilkinson:
Are you conceding that new labour critics are better at 'managing' the media than the spinsters from no 10? Good grief, New labour really are in trouble. Over a decade of spin spin spin and now here you are spinning about the iniquities suffered by new labour supporters at the hands of all those, very strategic, and cunning devils out to get you. Have you thought that maybe, just maybe, much of what you're reading is a genuine reflection of how many people feel???
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Can't ministers see that we all know they are demonstrating their incompetence time after time. They have governed in a benign global economic cycle and done relatively worse than our real competitors. Forge G7 countries; it is Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, and of course India and China. They have been rumbled for good but are in denial. That's the corruption of ideals and ethics than comes from being in power too long. Move over and make way for someone else please.
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Whilst low educational and critical thinking standards may be the charge of the opposition, at least they got their candidate elected this time...
It's in light of results like this that I despair at the electorate - electing a politician that will not - cannot - detail policies, and who is a stooge for a party machine that gets away with speaking to voters as if they are idiots. An appropriate mode of communication, it would seem.
In summary, the goal of getting elected wins out over the need to demonstrate any deep-rooted evidence of core social and cultural values.
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Talisman Tony saw the writing on the wall and handed Gordon a wonderful Hospital pass.
The economy is what really matters - which are not always under our control - but people, want a change as evidenced by recent events.
The question is whether Gordon can halt this head of steam.
He has to do something quite spectacular which might require him to fall on his sword. Failing that a miracle.
I also thought that the Labour Party election tactics in Crewe showed that the Labour Leadership has lost control.
Gone is the on-message controlling strategy which has been prevalent since 1997 and we now see political mavericks allowed to broadcast seriously naive electioneering messages which demonstrate that the ship is on a rudderless course.
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129
I agree about losing control.
Not just Crewe but with Wendy Alexander in Scotland.
Things can only get worse
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129
I agree about Labour losing control.
Not just the local party in Crewe but with Wendy Alexander in Scotland.
"Things can only get worse"
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120 John Constable is exactly correct. Devolution will prove untenable in its current form. T
he break up of the UK will ensue and we will find it incredibly hard to justify our seat on the UN Security Council.
Furthermore, the problem with Gordon's tax and spend isn't the high taxes, it's the massive borrowing in addition and the massive exposure through Northern Rock. The global economy is shifting from our cosy Western hegemony with the industrialisation of Asia and their massive demand for natural resources. Things are going to get expensive and if recession hits? What position are we in? We're indebted, exposed by Northern Rock and it's all predicated on future taxation. If recession hits and tax revenues go down, our only industry finance will jump ship and we will be bankrupt. Get ready to lower your living standards people, we taxpayers will be paying for this profligacy the rest of our lives, our children's lives, our children's children's lives...
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Glad to see Charles Hardwidge with the first post. But he is definitely on another planet!
The UK is an absolute mess. Fractured by devolution - believe or not most Scots do NOT want independance -, rising taxes, immigration, benefits out of control.......
There is no clear leadership from Gordon Brown. Why was he not out on the streets in Crewe?
If he is not confident that his presence will help Labour, then how can he expect us to believe him when he gives his little speeches from a controlled environment?
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As one of those who thought it time for a change in 1997, the parallels are remarkable. There is no way back for Labour. I don't know anyone who wants to vote for them. I would vote Tory at the next election, but I live in Liverpool, and only the lib-dems can unseat the labour candidate. I will vote tactically therfore, simply to get labour out. There are many like me, and Labour can't stop it.
Labour are going to suffer what the Tories did in 1997 when 2010 comes around.
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Nick
This may be the tipping point for the Tories in England and Wales, but definitely not in Scotland. They are still their version of a dead man walking up here.
I will concede that they may increase their number of MPs by 100% but they will still be able to travel to Westminster by tandem.
Interesting point about Brown though. If he is still PM by the time of the next election, he may just hold on to his seat at Kirkcaldy, but if he is not PM he his history, and he knows it.
Expect him to cling to the position until the Labour night of the long knives.
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Charles E Hardwidge tells us that :
#39 Cameron is the bully - not Brown
#67 He (Charles) is always fairly neutral between left and right
I would like to add couple of others from the same book of indisputable facts :
Tony Blair is a pretty straight kind of guy.
Sir Alex Ferguson is a Liverpool supporter
You must be delighted, Charles. No matter how obvious or ludicrous the bait you cast on the water, fools like me will rise to it.
nb Anagram of Charles Hardwidge = "Hi lads, chew red rag"
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Two forces, I believe, move politics; 1) 'events, dear boy' 2) perceptions. Neither is going Brown's way. but while the Labour leviathan flounders in a stagnant political swamp, it is still unlikely to die of natural causes before we are all broke, angryand bored to tears. Increasingly these days I find myself repeating the mantra, 'Autumn election anyone?' . Perhaps that will shift things.
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Hopefully Nick Robinson's analysis is correct, and the massive rises in spending on Health and Education that had lead to little or no real improvement will start to be curtailed and the savings invested into reducing our increasing tax burden.
I am not just talking about the recent abolition of the 10p band (which should be more correctly described as raising the 10p rate to 20p) or the increase in fuel costs. I also include raising the 40p threshold in line with inflation, and not in line with wages, which has sucked hundreds of thousands extra into higher rate tax, the imposition of the rise in PAYE disguised as a rise in NI to get around their promise not to raise Income Tax as well as the below house price rises in Stamp Duty.
In addition we now have one of the most onerous corporation tax rates in Europe, which is leading to businesses shifting to other countries to avoid paying the excessive rates of taxation.
All this to throw money into public services without insisting on real reforms, or value for money.
Reducing the tax burden, and enabling people to choose where their money is spent (or saved) is more like real investment in this country then simply wasting it on the inefficient and bloated public sector. This is the real legacy of 10 years+ of Gordon Brown and his fiscal prudence.
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MickeytheGinger says:
"The economy is what really matters."
Is it? "Man cannot live by bread alone", etc, and I like to think my fellow citizens also have deeply-felt principles.
If this government had been, what it patiently hasn't be but claimed to be, a decent honest and listening government, the public would have stuck by it during any hard times. Instead it's become an arrogant 'nanny knows best' government that has ignored any voices that didn't say what it wanted to hear. I like to think that is why it is being rejected by the voters.
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Neil_Small147
believe it or not, you think most Scots do not want independence. The general opinion up here is that most people think it is too close to call, which is why Brown has run a mile from it.
Most Scots remember Thatcher and to the vast majority Cameron is son of Thatcher. The prospect of many years of Tory rule in England with at best a car load of MPs from Scotland, is something that most Scots will not accept.
Watch the result of the 2010 referendum and weep.
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So the destruction of the Labour Party continues thanks to their shift to the right, begun by Blair the professional con man and continued by Brown the coward. No wonder Labour voters stay at home in droves, they would no sooner vote for the amateur nasty party lead by Brown than the professional nasty party lead by Cameron. Time after time we hear ‘Labour’ MPs trying to defend the indefensible, getting themselves deeper and deeper into the mire. Once they are elected and are engulfed in the Westminster bubble, all common sense, integrity and ideology seems to desert them, that’s if they had any in the first place!
The problem now is that the right wing has decimated the party to such an extent that for the first time in my forty years of support, even though it is plainly obvious that Brown is not fit for the job, there is no one in the party who is capable of taking over from him and restoring the core values that it once had.
The decent people of the country who didn’t want us to be party to mass the slaughter of innocent people in Iraq and don’t want our civil liberties eroded and who do want the corporations, utilities, banks, fuel companies etc., to be prevented from ripping us off have been totally let down by new Labour, the experiment has failed miserably.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
You really have to go some to be more unpopular than Tony Blair - but Gordon Brown is managing to do so - and some! Personally I would like to see him stay until the next election because he is the best chance the Tories have of regaining power, however the damage to this country will be immense. A risk worth taking? Not sure. There is no way back from here for Labour - no longer "New Labour" no "Dead Labour" - we just have to sit and wait until the electorate of this country can rid itself of the most unpopular and ineffectual PM since the last one! BRING IT ON!
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I have never voted anything other than Labour. However, when Gordon Brown made the statement about ?not really having fully calculated the impact of the 10p tax change? - I vowed never to vote Labour again, at least not while he remained leader!
I am a firm believer that when our leaders make such incomprehensible and unforgiveable mistakes, the time for change is overdue. Gordon has to go, 'the buck stops here' rings loud and clear...
The Labour party then has to hope and pray that the Tory momentum isn't already too great!
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The only tiny hope for the government is to jettison the NuCalvinism, where we are all guilty as sin and require copious amounts threatening, finger wagging, spying on and fining.
They could experiment with a return to Labour values and ditch their, now futile, sycophantic prostration in front of business interests and shire England.
The Labour campaign in Crewe and Nantwich shows how little real respect they have for us poor sinners, thinking the voters could be frightened in to voting for them by playing the Lord Snooty card.
Tamsin Dunwoody's statements, after her defeat, were the epitome of everything that is misconceived in Labour's attitude to the electorate.
They have such conviction in their quasi-religious righteousness that they are incapable of developing any other model.
They will surely go down to a massive defeat at the next General Election. That will have little to do with David Cameron's Tories and everything to do with the beam in their own eye.
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Whilst there's no doubt that Labour lost the election partly because of discontent with the party in general, and the leader in particular, most of the problem seems to be fuel, food and the credit crunch.
The problem is though that no political party can actually do anything to quell public fears regarding fuel prices, food prices and the "credit crunch". The first two are caused by factors totally outside of the UK's control (we can hardly reduce VAT on food - since we don't charge any in UK, and if Joe Public doesn't want to see cuts in public spending, then fuel duty can't be cut either). As for the credit crunch, that is a problem that lies fairly and squarely on the shoulders of world banks and financial institutions - again not the government's making.
I'd wager that David Cameron would be in much the same boat on these issues were he in power today.
Labour's chances of winning a fourth term under Gordon Brown are something between zero, and a little less than that. However if I were David Milliband I would let Gordon lose, then make my pitch to take over the leadership of the opposition, then take my chance against the Tories after 5 more years.
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Nick
Reports of Labour's demise are being prematurely trumpeted.
We can expect two things -
Some early eye catching initiatives. I reckon a very early cut in the rate of petrol/diesel tax will be one (ie cuts - not just an extension of the postponement of the escalator.)
A delay in calling the General Election until the last minute in the hope that the economy will improve, combined with some electoral bribes between now and then - affordable or not. If successful - another 5 years. If not, a scorched earth public finances inheritance for the Tories as an acceptable second prize.
Re the economy, a question for you, Nick. Why do you and other poltical journalists leave unchallenged Gordon's constant and inherently implausible implication that :
His stewardship of the UK economy was the reason for its stability during the past decade - in no way due to the benign global economic conditions which prevailed throughout that period but that
Our current UK difficulties are solely caused by unfavourable global conditions, in no way due to any acts or omissions by him
Or is it that you don't think it is implausible ?
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The whole of Scotland is watching with interested eyes. We've had it with being poll tax guinea pigs. We've had it with Labour's numpty mafia lining their own pockets. We've already got rid of the numpties. And if Lord Snooty thinks we're about to welcome him in with open arms he's living in cloud cuckoo land. People here increasingly feel it's time for a real change. An end to self-serving politicians maintaining a front of opposition for the public's benefit. It doesn't wash any more - at least not in Scotland. I am cheering Cameron on because the more it looks like he will win the more certain the people of Scotland will finally decide it's time for independence.
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146 ATNotts you are wrong. If people were merely worried about the economy and Labour are great then they would stick with them because their experience should be invaluable in a time of economic fear. It actually demonstrates how disliked and perceived as incompetent this government is that people are prepared to vote in a new bunch led by a baby faced ex PR chap when their terrified about the economy and their futures.
You are drunk with 11 years of power. Things are serious. The government says it is listening. They can't be. The economic, ecological and constitutional ground is shifting and you think David Milliband will ride to the rescue in 7 years time. Wake up.
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in reply to @104: dhwilkinson:
doctor gloom wrote@226
"Are you conceding that new labour critics are better at 'managing' the media than the spinsters from no 10? Good grief, New labour really are in trouble. Over a decade of spin spin spin and now here you are spinning about the iniquities suffered by new labour supporters at the hands of all those, very strategic, and cunning devils out to get you. Have you thought that maybe, just maybe, much of what you're reading is a genuine reflection of how many people feel???"
__________________________________
Yes especially David Camerons Conservative party Who hide the fact that they now have a leader in David Cameron that is a grand master of the art of spin and presentation, by ironically complaining about Labour spin and presentation.
All politicians spin and tell half truths. It is a fact of life. Its up to the public to judge when that is happening. It is ridiculous to pin this label on one party. The suggestion from David Cameron that labour is the party of spin and presentation. Part of a growing trend of outrageous hypocrisy on the part of David Cameron. That has so far failed to be exposed by the media even the BBC, which personally especially worries me. I may just be as paranoid as people complaining about a left wing bias. I hope so. It is definately anti lib dem biased though there is no doubt in my mind about that.
David Cameron may excel at criticism, but a film critic hasn't the first idea how to make a film. The same could be true of David Cameron. Unless he proves otherwise.
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Re; Post no 107
njgill has a very selective memory - under labour in the 1970's high unemployment, high taxation, high inflation and horrendous industrial unrest etc brought four terms of tories into power and New Labour inherited low interest rates, low tax, low employment, low inflation and a booming economy from the Tories in 1997. OK so even Gordon Brown has struggled to destruct the excellent legacy he inherited but he certainly has now. Labour is in self destruct.
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The by-election result is not just due to the economic climate. That point is being made by GB et al as a way of trying to put the blame onto others. Most people are fed up with this lot's obsession with big, interfering Government and the patronizing opinion that the state knows best. In this context, NuLabour has been very much Old Labour, most noticably with how GB has used his extremely complicated tax and credit system to make ever more households dependent on the state for their income (and therefore more likely to vote for him!). I could gone on .....
One other point. The fact that GB refused to speak to reporters outside St Thomas 's Hospital this morning, instead choosing to speak to a selected two in the privacy of the hospital again shows how much of a coward he is. I can't imagine TB not facing the music. Then why should we be surprised. GB spent most of his time as Chancellor disappearing when things got rough for the Government.
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#62, theclaque: Nothing personal taken, old chap! FWIW, I think you are absolutely spot on. Plenty of people who moan about how bad the government are don't bother to get out and vote, and that is a huge part of the problem.
In the 20-odd years for which I've been allowed to vote, I think I've only missed one opportunity to do so, and that was a local election.
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#150 dhwilkinson
"David Cameron may excel at criticism, but a film critic hasn't the first idea how to make a film. The same could be true of David Cameron. Unless he proves otherwise."
There is only one way to find out! Are you willing to let him proof his worth?
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The most amazing thing about this whole dirty charade is that in 1997, Tory voters were terrified that their relative prosperity would be leeched away through redistribution. Now we want rid of them because they're hitting the working man.
"And the Kshatriyas also towards the end of such a period will become the thorns of the earth. And filled with avarice and swelling with pride and vanity and unable and unwilling to protect their subjects, they will take pleasure in inflicting punishments only. And attacking and repeating their attacks upon the good and the honest, and feeling no pity for the latter, even when they will cry in grief, the Kshatriyas will, O Bharata, rob these of their wives and wealth.
From The Mahabharata
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Last night is obviously a good result for the Conservative Party. However, 2010 could still be a 1992 rather than 1997. Labour-PF could still cling on for a further term with little or no majority.
Come 2010 my eldest child will be of age to vote. She has only been aware of the Blair/Brown administrations so any Labour-PF harping back to "life under Thatcher" or "what the Tories did then" will cut no ice. GB will have to stand or fall on what his government has achieved. Not a warming thought at the moment.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
@shanewexford - You mean electing an MP for their area as opposed to a middles aged woman who could barelt string a sentence together? Whose only hope was that a substantial part of the electorate had missed that her mother had sadly passed on and just caught the Dunwoody bit. Do me a favour, sunshine.
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150 dhwilkinson:
I understand where you're coming from here, and yes, perhaps many of us do ignore what I assume you consider to be the similarities between, (what you might call) the Cameron spin machine, and new Labour spin practices But, you know, New Labour have only themselves to blame for this. Also, I don't think joe public is as easy to spin to these days as you imagine. It's not the power of Cameron spin that is creating this sea change in opinion, it's a massive change of mood, from the ground up.
New Labour have made a huge contribution to a widespead feeling of mistrust toward the political class in this country. This is something we'll all have to live with for some time, but, for the moment, you're just going to have to accept that things are changing. I imagine many people posting here today will be equally as critical of a tory admistration if they fail to live up to the electorate's expectations. You might not like it, but it is time for a change, and if people like me either willingly, or reluctantly, go over to the Cameron camp to get rid of new labour, then so be it.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
In this era, we understand that 'disruptive technologies' have a profound effect on our lives.
One only has to think of this very medium, the Internet and the Web.
So why should we be overly concerned that in our little patch of the world, within the next few years, we will almost certainly vote for a highly 'disruptive' political change, as England, Scotland and Wales peel off via their dominant political parties.
In my opinion, it will bring much needed political clarity, especially to England, which at present is literally stranded in a political no-man's-land.
We English will find our place and it will be a good place.
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Thou seest, the heavens, as troubled with man's act,
Threaten his bloody stage: by the clock, 'tis day,
And yet dark night strangles the travelling lamp:
Is't night's predominance, or the day's shame,
That darkness does the face of earth entomb,
When living light should kiss it?
'Gainst nature still!
Thriftless ambition, that wilt ravin up
Thine own life's means!
Macbeth Act II Scene IV
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146 ATNotts : "Whilst there's no doubt that Labour lost the election partly because of discontent with the party in general, and the leader in particular, most of the problem seems to be fuel, food and the credit crunch."
They still dont get it, they just dont get it.....
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It's pointless speculating on whether this is a "tipping point" for the Conservatives, since they're largely irrelevant. The bigger question is whether this is a "tipping point" for the government. Elections are lost, not won.
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People are sick to death of Gordon Brown's government meddling and interfering in their lives, and forever ever issuing "good advice" about how to live.
We've had the ID card scheme, the deeply divisive smoking ban, not listening to the experts commissioned to give advice on cannabis, criminalising people for owning "dangerous pictures", such as Madonna's "Sex" book (two years in prison if you're caught with that!) , and now recording our emails and phone calls.
It's this sort of level of 1984 style control in people's everyday lives they don't want.
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163 fianddan
It's no use. you can shout until you're blue in the face (no pun intended) but they have their fingers in their ears singing "na na na na". Their funeral.
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£2.7 billion borrowed to placate the outcry over the 10p tax change.
£2 billion given to 18 million households NOT made worse by the 10p tax change.
Most of the 5.3 million who lost out will only get back £120 of the £260 that they lost.
1.1 million of the lowest paid, for whom there was such an outcry at the unfairness of this tax change, WILL GET NOTHING AT ALL.
And Chairman Brown wonders why the Country doesn't want him as it's PM.
Silly man.
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@njgill - I can only assume you're 15 odd and have spent too much time listening to a Shop Steward father spouting about life under Maggie. Let me tell you a secret...it wasn't so bad although, as with this one, IMO a change was needed by the end and I voted Labour.
I'll tell you another secret. Major and Lamont committed political suicide when they pulled out of the ERM. They were finished and the Tories were finished. Their reason for doing that? They had made a mistake and did so for the longer term good. That meant we retained sterling and retained control over our interest rates and this is the reason we had a substantially better economic performance than most of Europe in the last decade.
A child of 4 would have been able to run the economy over the last decade. In fact, the average child of 4 would have done a better job. He / she would have wanted to keep that pretty, bright, shiny, yellow metally stuff rather than let the French have it for the price of a couple of boxes of Star Wars Lego.
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#83.
Everything I wrote about canvassing in Crewe was correct and I stand by it all. I also stand firmly behind my views and what I say about being fed up with picking up the tab for political mistakes.
For some reason you don't appear to comprehend the view of a die-hard Labour supporter. there is a difference you know between those that die with Labour sword in hand and those that pass away with a reason why.
In Crewe labour posters were everywhere. When asked, labour supporters were everywhere. One guy knew nothing of an election and one couple didn't know who they were voting for. Experience told me that the 'close the gate behind you look' meant there was an issue. I corrected their view of the 10p tax FIASCO!
In my view, post election, the Labour vote stayed away. It's a bit like not wishing to be seen to shoot one of your own in friendly fire but hoping a deranged enemy wounds him in your stead.
Conservatives will quite rightly dine out tonight on a Crewe victory but it is obvious to me that the stay away vote will return to fold when trinkets are put on display for all to see.
I am neither dissillusioned, deluded or defeated and many of us in the ranks have little spirit with which to play blame games.
The 10p tax FIASCO was a child-like game that grown ups should not be seen to play and most certainly not withing earshot of a brand new Hospital and school or a post office doling out tax credits and winter fuel allowances.
All pensioners are invited to Crewe or Nantwich, using their FREE bus trave documents to prove my viewpoints.
Gordon will listen to Gary now, he has no option. You, however, do have the option to parade your victory via any (unworthy) media outlet you can find.
But it is short term.
We refuse to return to the 20th Century.
Gary
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@Gary, I respect your view, to which you are entitled. It is however a deluded one IMHO. You miss what appears to be a groundswell that has had enough sleaze and deceit. I may be wrong but only time will tell.
Keep on canvassing. If this were Zimbabwe you would be rounding us up with an AK47 to vote for Rob Mug. I am thankful that NuLab hasn't taken us down that particular branch of democracy...yet.
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169 GaryElsby:
This is precisely why you and your party are dying. You are in complete denial. The labour vote stayed away? What labour vote? There has been a massive swing away from New labour. Have you seen the results? Blimy, all I can say is that the new labour elite must be thrilled to have such insightful supporters like you on their books.
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I find the attempts to dismiss these results as rather weak.
When every political expert interviewed today said it’s a significant change in the mood of voters, the pre by-election interviews of ordinary voters supports the expert views.
The polls support it - the local council elections support it.
I doubt many people will forgive Gordon over the 10p. That’s the chain around browns neck and it is pulling him down below the water line.
He cannot escape the perception he is the man with Ed Balls that took from the poorest most in needy in the UK, and give to the better off.
This fix - again is perceived as a bribe not a solution.
Only way I see labour winning next time is if they remove brown and his cabinet, and start again with fresh ppl and fresh ideas in line with labour's traditional core beliefs.
It might even draw me back as an ex labour supporter.
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GaryElsby #83: “For some reason you don't appear to comprehend the view of a die-hard Labour supporter. there is a difference you know between those that die with Labour sword in hand and those that pass away with a reason why.”
Can you tell me did you play that guy in the film "Monty Pythons Holy Grail" - who has his arms and legs cut off and keeps saying "Com'on it's only a scratch"
It’s over, comrade
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169:
Once again we have the same worn out argument that The Conservatives merely won by default because The Labour voters sat on their hands in protest. We are talking here about a dyed in the wool Labour constituency, No 126 down the list of possible targets for the Conservatives. Many Labour voters did bother to register their vote because they thought it was important and they did so by voting for The Conservatives turning around a 7000 deficit.
All this nonsense about The Global Economy, mid term blues and protest registering is just a smokescreen for the very real problems The Government have brought upon themselves. Noone doubts your loyalty to your political cause. Highly commendable in these days of bandwagoning and opportunism. Neither does anyone want to return to the policies of The 20th Century. That approach failed and was given the bum's rush by The Electorate. It is unlikely to be repeated because everyone will be watching very closely to make sure that it doesn't happen.
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I wonder, GaryElsby, how is the new hospital in Crewe you speak of being funded? PFI, I guess. A Conservative idea that Brown latched on to. It probably means that the hospital is being paid for on the "never never".
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When I turned the TV on this morning I was not in the least surprised when I saw that the Tories had won the seat, disappointed yes , surprised no. If I were a Tory I would be over the moon and those that are Tories are entitled to be so,we have to congratulate them on there first success in thirty years, it would be churlish not to. What has disapointed me through is the way that the Tories have crawled out of the woodwork in dozens with an amazing over reaction, they have not won a general election,although you would think they had, merely one small constituency, thats good for them, first good news they've had in eleven years, so I suppose we cant blame them for being excited but do try to keep things in perspective. Why are you Tories in your moment of glory being so rude and insulting in particular to Hazel Blears, not so much her politics but her stature, I am afraid that many tories have a valid reason for this week to be happy but why does it seem to bring out the worst in them I would have thought that the Tories that generally think there a little better than the rest of us,[51 Novosbirsk last sentence tells us an awful lot about Tories] I would have thought that they might have been magnanimous in their victory but then I realised it was Tories I was writing about. A bit of a reality check. "one swallow does'nt make a summer".
In one way I am pleased that labour lost the seat, the reason,I hope it will encourage labour to start to work together and stop following their own agenda and I hope that all those labour voters who are staying at home will get the message and realise that the media are out to get Labour by fair or foul means,so if you dont want to return to the dreadful Tory rule of the eighties and nineties, get of your backsides and vote, dont let them fool you, you should know better than that, sit down and make your own list of what labour has done for you, not my list or the strange people on here but your list and then if your old enough, draw up a list of what the Tories did for you back then, that list should'nt take long
.Your back again Dutchy 5, your back again and just as disrespectful,68 I guess you will never learn, picking on a woman that cant answer you back, why dont you go away to HYS like you promised we dont need you here spouting your venomous remarks.
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#160.
On what grounds was it decided that this posting has broken the House Rules?
I never introduced the fact that Dunwoody was "an unemployed mother of five" - that was from the candidates own mouth. Given that she saw fit to emphasise the 'unemployed', it is not unreasonable to surmise that she is registered as such and receiving the benefits to which she is entitled.
If successful in her campaign, Dunwoody would then have been a willing party to the Westminster Gravy Train which must, by any standards, be seen as having the most lucrative and uncontrolled benefits for its Members.
How then can I be found to have broken any rules by noting that, had she won the seat, Dunwoody would simply move from receiving one set of benefits to a more lucrative source?
I am very disappointed in the BBC moderator that took this decision. Must be very junior.
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Watching Mr Broon here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7416562.stm
it's clear he just hasn't got the message.
Here it is: We don't like you or your policies.
Don't tell us that you're listening and then talk about winning the argument. You've already lost that and you need to come up with some fresh ideas and solutions before you go down to a landslide that makes the 97 election look like a molehill.
Right now it's the Government who need to tell the electorate exactly how they are going to address peoples fears about rising bills and recession. Aside from buying off voters to the tune of 2.7bn as a consequence of a disastrously ill conceived attempt to wrong foot the Tories, the goverment (including the so called 'Greatest Chancellor of the Modern era/Ever') seem to have absolutely idea what to do. Instead you're fiddling about announcing next year's legislative programme. And you have the nerve to criticise the Tories for having no policies.
In the words of Cromwell (I think): In the name of God, go! You have sat long enough...
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Oh dear, oh, dear. Conservatives, how they like to play up to their betters like naughty children.
Would somebody please tell them that when push comes to shove, they will lose every vote in the House.
I once shouted to a referee:'That was no goal ref!'
He looked over to me and calmly said:'Have a look in tomorrow nights paper then to see if it was!'
Lesson learned.
Yes, Tories have won a seat in a Labour certainty. It's what you do in by-elections, ask anyone who has ever watched a telly post-by-election day.
Nothing new here at all.
'Tory boy' Timpson is best not advised to either have fitted carpets or go Mansion hunting near the 'Dog and Duck' in Down Town Crewe as I fear it may be a short wast of time and energy.
Itchi and Scratchi will no doubt be ressurrected from the Thatcher years to instigate a poster campaign of 'Labour isn't working' and oddly enough, this time they will be accurrate.
Labour must be seen to listen but more importantly, Labour must act upon apathy.
Gideon and his shadow team of Treasury undertakers must be exposed as being of a desire to balance the books via the tried and tested re-distribution of tax credit wealth and into his Conservative hardship fund that always preceeds a potential Conservative election victory.
Those poor, poor people of Crewe have not realised the error of their ways by not taking the by election seriously. They thought any Labour candidate with a red rosette pinned on them would 'bring home the bacon'.
Alas, the error of the Labour party, was to allow apathy to happen.
I can feel the anger in Crewe as I write and all it will take is for the right candidate to be installed to pitch in for the team and come in for the final touchdown.
Crewe will return to the fold and Nantwich will follow suit.
CCHQ may run London for Boris (don't tell anyone, it's a secret) but they certainly won't be able to avert the inevitable up in the North.
Gary
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I have you sussed out now grandantidote. You're a double agent; anagram - eton IT grandad. School, profession and family status there for all to see.
No need to hide any longer. Take some lighter fuel to your 'Anyone who votes Tory is Satan' handbook, take off the rose-tinted glasses, take a calculator to the last beige book. After this, when realisation of your folly sinks in, being the good Samaritan that I am I would encourage you not to head for any high bridges. Merely take stock of your life, put it down to boyish nonsense and move on. You know 'get on with the job' like GB does.
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GaryElsby wrote:
'Why are you Tories in your moment of glory being so rude and insulting in particular to Hazel Blears, not so much her politics but her stature, I am afraid that many tories have a valid reason for this week to be happy but why does it seem to bring out the worst in them I would have thought that the Tories that generally think there a little better than the rest of us'.
I can assure you it's a great deal more than her stature that is displeasing. It's also her openly patronising attitude towards her opponents.
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179:
'Yes, Tories have won a seat in a Labour certainty. It's what you do in by-elections, ask anyone who has ever watched a telly post-by-election day.
Nothing new here at all.'
Sheer , arrogant complacency on your part and it's the kind of attitude that is going to lose your party the next GE.
179:
'Those poor, poor people of Crewe have not realised the error of their ways by not taking the by election seriously. They thought any Labour candidate with a red rosette pinned on them would 'bring home the bacon'.
The people of Crewe are not as stupid as you seem to imply. They've had plenty of time to judge all the relevant arguments and by a large majority they've voted in favour of the opposition candidates. They knew that the odds were stacked against Tamsin Dunwoody and yet still they didn't vote for her as a gesture of support. They knew the stakes perfectly well. There were plenty of TV documentaries on the subject before Thursday!
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Sorry. The Hazel Blears topic was aimed at grandantidote not GaryElsby although it wouldn't surprise me if he shared grandantidote's views.
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Is it just me, or do others think that GaryElsby's post No 179 just illustrates the arrogance and conceit at the heart of New Labour?
As for being hard on the Blears woman - she's a vacuous, stupid nonentity. Is that reason enough?
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Well lads we've given you your little taster now people should know that like the fly near the Venus Fly Trap that they will be swallowed up in the sickly scent of tory non policies and false promises unless they move quickly away
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#182
You say:'The people of Crewe have had plenty of time to judge the relevant arguments'
Hello?
I don't ask your forgiveness in pointing out that the only policy presented by the Conservatives to the people of Crewe, was one of disgust at the 'Tory Toff' campaign put out by Labour.
At every opportunity, Conservatives rolled out the ridiculous claim that Dave, Gideon and 'Tory boy Timpson' (all registered in FTSE100) 'feel our pain' and it got even better by claiming to be 'one of us'!
In Crewe? Beleive me, the only 'one of us' in these parts is Sainsbury's but his Lordship doesn't actually live above the shop.
The whole population of Crewe (and Nantwich for that matter), if their combined wealth were pooled, wouldn't even make it into the FTSE 250 in Rwanda!
For the Conservatives to have won Crewe is probably the best con (get it?) trick ever pulled off in the English speaking world. To plant a Conservative flag deep into the Bronx of Cheshire is tantamount to Captain Cooke bringing Austrailia into 'British protection'. Protection from whom? said Aboriginals.
How protected do you think the electorate will feel on the streets of Crewe this saturday night as the pubs turn out and Dave is tucked up in Kensington?
Let's cut out this nonsense of a 'Gwyneth sympathy vote' cos she was a 'battle axe who gave stick out'.
Stuff and nonsense.
Crewe is die hard Labour heartland Country and when the side is next put out, it won't be Crewe and Nantwich that drops the ball.
It's 1-1 and extra time goes on for another 24 Months.
I think a couple of taxable beauties should do the trick. Nudge nudge, know what I mean?
Gary
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#180Marco Boogers' Discount Holidays, you my friend are as out of touch with reality and as crazy as your title, you must keep taking the tablets.
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Devolution-
I think most people realise that the SNP are delaying the independance issue until an anti- Scottish UK govt is elected - probably if the Tories become the next UK govt.
However, if Scotland suffered under the Tories the last time, why should it be any different next time regarding independance i.e. what law gives Scotland the right to be independant? Surely the Tories would just stop independance or severely restrict it.
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Marimonster (Post 149)
I can't be "drunk with power" since I have no power to be drunk with!! I am not a member of the Labour Party, though I have voted for Blair, and currently feel that Brown is just not up to the job - so I hope that's straight!
The public vote for change for most perverse reasons - the oft heard vox pop is "to give the other lot a chance" because they are cheesed of the the "present lot"!
Major's government wasn't so bad in the 1990s, but people wanted change - and Blair provided it.
Cameron will doubtless do the same in 2010, but I think that if Labour give the right person the job post Brown, and the only likely candidate just now is Milliband, then he would have a chance, dependent upon how Cameron and his lot perform through what are likely to be ongoing difficult economic times.
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As a life long Labour supporter, I think the best thing Gordon can do now is call the general election now (along with the Tories bluff) the panic in Cameron and Osborne would be heard for miles from Crewe or any other place. Suddenly faced with actually dealing with the global oil price boom, food price boom, energy price boom and credit crunch. All under the 24 hour critical scrutiny of a hostile media and opposition, having to declare their tax policies on everything from the 10p issue to fuel and Council taxes. The bicycle clips would be on like a flash and they wouldn't be for cycling.
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GaryElsby wrote:
'Crewe is die hard Labour heartland Country and when the side is next put out, it won't be Crewe and Nantwich that drops the ball.
It's 1-1 and extra time goes on for another 24 Months.
I think a couple of taxable beauties should do the trick. Nudge nudge, know what I mean?'
It could well be 1-1 and extra time in your opinion. The unfortunate aspect of your analogy is that your centre forward is on a booking and is about to get a second. Your midfield is knackered and the manager has run out of ideas to turn the match around. That should decide the match in your opponent's favour!!
The Chancellor by the way has no tax handouts left. Didn't you know? The cupboard is bare.
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No 190:
Bring it on!!
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But sadly, for you, Eatonrifle, Gordon Brown doesn't have the courage to do that. He'll cling on grimly for as long as he can (May 2010), hoping things will get better, rather like Hitler in in his Berlin bunker.
He trumpets on about being entrusted to do a job. But who the hell entrusted him to be prime minister? Not the voters at a general election, not even the Labour party in a leadership contest.
He has no courage, no integrity and no legitimacy.
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GaryElsby wrote:
'I don't ask your forgiveness in pointing out that the only policy presented by the Conservatives to the people of Crewe, was one of disgust at the 'Tory Toff' campaign put out by Labour.'
To use your football analogy, bit of an own goal then wasn't it? If the Conservatives had no policy then how on earth did they manage to win so many votes in a staunch Labour seat? I think it would be a good idea to post your comments in the local rag and see what people think of your patronising attitude towards them. I think you're talking out of a less than edifying part of your anatomy!
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#188 northJason - one of the things that gives Scotland the right to independence is the fact that most people there can actually spell it - unlike you.
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193# rather like John Major would perhaps be a little more apt than a comparison to Hitler. I know you Tories want to blame all the worlds woes on GB but that one is in bad taste even for your lot alyhough I suppose depicting your opponent with Satan's eyes as they did with Blair seems to put a few "Toff" comments into perspectve.
As for the tired arguement about no one elected Gordon Brown, that's the most redundant political arguement ever and I can't be bothered to respond
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192# And Yours, Daves and Georges Solutions to those issues are...........................
Await echoeing silence and tumbleweed blowing through street!
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Ah, poor Eatonrifle is under the impression I'm a Tory. I'm not. I've never voted and have no intention of starting now. I hate the political caste in this country.
And the poor fellow can't even think of a response to the FACT that Gordon Brown has no legitimacy as prime minister.
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Eatonrifle wrote:
'As for the tired arguement about no one elected Gordon Brown, that's the most redundant political arguement ever and I can't be bothered to respond'.
He could be one of a very few PM's in 2 yrs to leave office without ever being voted in by The People. Does anyone know the statistics?
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'arguement' argument
'echoeing' echoing
Just a minor thing but don't forget to drop the 'e' in words like this. It would help to make your point so much better!
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197:'
192# And Yours, Daves and Georges Solutions to those issues are...........................
Be patient. All will be revealed and then you will have every right to to tear them apart at your will but your arguments had better be good!
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201#
Thought as much
Oh and thanks for the spelling corrections, hope the warm glow of smugness lasts.
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Just trying to be helpful. Smugness isn't in my nature. As for the policies it's The Government on trial right now not The Opposition. They'll set out their agenda closer to the GE.
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Eatonrifle, stand up for The Government by supporting and explaining their policies not by constantly rubbishing David Cameron. You're on a loser there.
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203#
You confirmed what I expected neither you nor I suspect the two leading figures in the opposition actually have anything to offer in terms of polices.
204~ just reviewed my posts not sure where I "rubbished" Dave.
As for supporting/explaining.
Giving independence to Bank of England,
Minimum wage, record NHS and Education funding, more Police Officers than ever, (all facts not opinions)
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205:
'As for supporting/explaining.
Giving independence to Bank of England,
Minimum wage, record NHS and Education funding, more Police Officers than ever, (all facts not opinions)
The first opne i will grant you. Rather The BOE than The Govt. in charge for obvious reasons
Record spending on The NHS and Education. Again indisputed but the explosion of spending in these areas was unfettered and disappeared down a black hole without adequate checks. Can't you see this? Our money by the way not the Government's.
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Re 190:
Eatonrifle you are right. If Cameron and Osborne had to deal with today's global economic issues they would not have a clue. Cameron is a great communicator but has a "nasty" syreak about him that upsets middle of the road opinion when he overdoes it. Osborne is a spectacular lightweight. Northern Rock and the lost HMRC discs were easy issues for him to spout on. When he has Paxman and Humphrys on him asking detailed questions about the manifesto he will collapse.
The problem about going early is why? The Labour Party have a mandate to govern from 2005. All the "heavyweight" Tory opinion on here blathering on about Brown being unelected and having no mandate have no clue whatsoever.
Their comments are driven by bitterness and spite.
Today they should be congratulating their leader and party on last night's excellent result. Instead the poision still oozes about Gordon Brown as it does on every other day. I did think about naming the more rabid right-wingers on here but I really can't be bothered.
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'Giving independence to Bank of England,
Minimum wage, record NHS and Education funding, more Police Officers than ever, (all facts not opinions)' ...and all the while creating a surveillance society that the Stasi could only have dreamed of.
Photographing all and sundry going about their public business, logging all their communications, recording the number plates of all cars on the motorways. Using anti-terror laws to spy on people to confirm their entitlement to school places and then not applying them to big businesses that contravene them.
All facts, not opinions, and that's just a sample, not to mention their plans to aggregate all this information into massive databases.
Progressive Labour policies are coming at a very high price indeed.
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'You confirmed what I expected neither you nor I suspect the two leading figures in the opposition actually have anything to offer in terms of polices.'
You have a closed mind don't you? It's so frustrating. The Opposition are NOT in Government. The spotlight is on GORDON BROWN. Defend hin fgs. Attack The Opposition by all means when their policies are fully announced. Do you homestly believe that they will be elected on nil agenda. Come on!!! Have more faith in your leader!
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PH wrote:
'Their comments are driven by bitterness and spite'
Yeah rifght And of course The Labour Party machine in Nantwich wasn't.
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I'll leave you lot to wallow in the belief that Gordon Brown is a hero and can do no wrong. Tomorrow I fly to New York for a week to celebrate a big birthday. I look forward to seeing your meaty arguments in sopport of the P.M. when I retrurn but I won't hold my breath!
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Re:209
I must say that today is a bad day for supporters of Gordon Brown - which surprise, surprise would include me! But mutleyspup you must be a member of the shadow cabinet. The quality of your arguments on this blog are that good!
Time for a pint, but you lad have sent me away with a smile.
I await a heavyweight and witty retort. Unfortunately, I shall not read it until tomorrow. Time to increase the profits of Shepherd and Neame.
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It has been widely assumed and commented that Crewe and Nantwich is and was a dyed in the wool safe labour territory. I don't accept this. The seat contains many more "middle-England" voters than this suggests. Nantwich is very well heeled, there is a significant rural element and the traditional rail industries of Crewe are no longer the huge employers of blue collar traditional labour voters that they once were. Many new houses have been built in the constituency and that has altered the demographics further. Don't forget that the late Mrs G Dunwoody would have attracted a significant personal vote from across the political divide.
I therefore do not accept tha the election was lost simply because the traditional labour voters stayed at home.
Middle England voters who voted in Mr Blair in 1997 are hurting. They are paying high prices for gas, electricity, petrol, diesel and are struggling with house prices and interest rates. Added to this that many do not benefit from tax credits, nor from the handout in the aftermath of the 10p tax fiasco, it is easy to see why there people have now returned their allegiences to the Conservative party.
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I'll bring back a pair of rose tinted glasses from NYC for you to wear although I imagine you already own a pair of your own!
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213:
At last a reasoned and well articulated post. Well done. I was aware that part of the Constituency was more well heeled than the other but you put it very clearly!
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It is never a good idea to sit down at the keyboard after drinking half a bottle of red wine. Good night all!!
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So the PM got a drubbing as expected. And well deserved it was too. Well done Crewe.
I've lost count of the number of times Brown has said that he is 'listening' and 'responding to people's concerns'. If there had been some very complex issue for the country to discuss, with no obvious right answer, then maybe listening would be a sensible course of action. However, it is ludicous for Brown to be listening and responding to the concerns of the police after overruling an independent pay review body's recommendations. Isn't it rather obvious before the event that a huge revolt is inevitable?
Isn't it also blindingly obvious that there will be countrywide uproar when Brown [Yes, he of the Labour Party(!)] doubles the tax rate for the poorest people.
How Brown must regret not going to the polls when he had the chance. It will be impossible for him to go willingly, but through timidity and then outrageous stupidity he has thrown his opportunity away.
Brown will never escape from the jibe that he was put on Earth to remind us how good Blair was. The fact Blair himself hopelessly underachieved makes it all the more damning.
Go now and show some character Mr Brown, or will you dither over that decision too?
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#22 says 'Mistakes have been made and this is a difficult situation but its nothing to get worked up about.'
These are not mistakes, this has been a deliberate policy to make everyone equal at the lowest common denominator.
How dare you work hard and aspire to be something. They think if we are all poor we will automatically vote Labour, because they are the party for the poor.
They have wrecked the economy, broken the Union, given away powers to Europe, opened our borders to god knows who and taken us into an illegal war.
Not much to get worked up about.
You must be living on the same planet as Gordon Brown.
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peteholly wrote:
'Time for a pint, but you lad have sent me away with a smile.
I await a heavyweight and witty retort. Unfortunately, I shall not read it until tomorrow. Time to increase the profits of Shepherd and Neame.
Glad to be of service. I also have a smile omn my face because I'm off on holiday to NYC and my team is Manchester United. Also chuffed about The By Election result. Happy posting! I'm heading straight for a Viennese restaurant where you can drink as misch as you like for one price!
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There have been several comments here saying that if the Tories gain power the SNP and Scottish people will vote for independence, so be it. If this happens Pandora's box will be opened and the Scots will undoubtedly lose out, EU membership will be lost and therefore EU funding will be lost, friendly trade with the other part of the country will be no longer be their preference, employment will be lost (just remember how many civil service jobs are in Scotland that deal with England eg. tax office etc.
On the plus side, one set of redundancies that will be welcomed by all that don't wear rose (or red) tinted glasses is that of the Scottish MP's that rule Westminster since they will no longer have the right to inflict their obsessions on England. At least since Thursday there is one more Englishman in the English parliament at Westminster. Ooops PC error, I meant UK parliament since England as usual has not been given the same rights as Scotland and Wales.
One other subject interests me about future elections and that is should Scotland go independent anyone claiming to be Scottish, but living in England, will have to change their Nationality in order to be able to vote in Governmental or Regional elections in England, since under EU rules only nationals can vote in those elections. Therefore all Scots in England will have to take English Nationality in order to vote, if they are allowed to, what an amusing scenario to anticipate.
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209# So Ihave a closed mind? Well enlighten me with whatever the furure holds under the next Tory Government, please enlighten away, everyone can see what the Governmet does, warts and all. If investment in Education and health had been kept at 1997 levels in real terms, how would they be now, well we'll never know but I suspect in rather more trouble than at present.
I'm not naive enough to think that you or the Tory ldership are likely to declare any policy, it may be in the interests of the electorate to see what's in Pandoras box before it's opened but not in the interests of the Tory Party as if we see we may ask questions and we couldn't have that could we, far too awkward.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#209 mutleyspup So you and Dutchy 5 share a birthday and it would seem a Sort of men of the people sort of holiday in Newyork, all very working class. To be honest when all the rest of the country have to heat or eat and mothers have to sit in candle light according to you Tories, it seems just a little hypocritical that after all your anti socialist c**p that you have been spouting here and now in typical Tory fashion you proudly tell us, that you can afford to manage a trip to Newyork, that many hard working families could'nt possibly afford, reminds me of the old Harry Enfield show, two points "you! dont want to do that" but I can " I'm considerably richer than you". I have a suspicion that you may be the same person but with a split personality, both unfortunately thoroughly unpleasant people.
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219# Might want to tell Dave about the Vienese, sounds like an ideal place for a Bullingdon Reunion, drink, puke, toss some Fifties on the table. Makes you proud!
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#168 Marcos boogers, Selling the bright shiny stuff . Do you mean in the same way that the Tories sold the oil the electricity and gas, the water, the bridges, mostly to the French, much of the shipbuilding industry the railways in a massive rush, for peanuts just before they got slung out. they had already decimated the coal industry even a four year old would'nt have been that stupid they also ruined much of the motor industry, the kitchen sink was on its way but Major put his foot down. Pity really It would have saved Tony Having to spend the massive sum of ten grand on putting a new kitched in number10 which of course was only for his use not for anyone else certainly not to improve the facilities in the kitchen for future users.
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#204 Dutchy Do you mean in the same way you have been rubbishing Hazel blears.
#209 muttleyspup. as you say Gordon is in the spotlight but Cameron is standing in the wings hoping for Gordon to fall but even as a understudy he has to know his lines and I dont think he has learnt them, we are the directors and the producers but he has'nt read anything to convince us yet.
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Been thinking about how little we know of Dave and current/future Tory policy. Everyone quotes his association with Lamont and Black Wednesday but people tend to forget his role in the last and recent 2005 General Election.
He wrote the Tory manifesto, ridiculed at the time fot it's brevity and Dog Whistle style on race issues, memorable for very little other than "the patients passpoert" to take money out of the NHS and give to the well off to spend on private care. The sound bite was "are you thinking what we're thinking?" Well no Dave but we understood what you were thinking and would like to know what you're thinking now, Why so shy?
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It's quite enjoyable reading the 'friendly' advice from raving Tories regarding what is best for Gordon, Labour and the Country.
Let's clear up their inebriate advice as to our Leader and any potential stalking horse competition.
If the world's most famous man was to leave Nazareth and part the seas on his journey to England, and if this man were to feed thousands with bread and wine, and if this same man were to cure all illnesses on his way and if he were to arrive at my feet and hold my hands in his, and if this man were to look into my eyes with his beautiful blue eyes and say: Gary, I want to be leader of the labour Party and I want to lead you into a Socialist Utopia fit for heroes, I would say:
'Tony, you had your chance and you did us proud, but Gordon is our leader now and we will follow him with pride to a fourth victory for and on behalf of a greatful people'.
No leadership competitions please, for all we want is leadership.
Conservatives are too numpty to understand that the inquest into new Labour is most welcome by labour and rumours of our death is too awful to contemplate. Labour has the best morticians in any political party and will hopefully be put to good use.
To my critics who say I am arrogant, please be aware that intelligence is ofeten mistaken in ignorance as arrogance. A situation that suits you alone on your side.
I, however, remain highly confident that Labour's only failure in Crewe was to allow the 'Toffs' to cut and shut any policy debate which allowed Labour to be shunted up a Cul-de-Sac.
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#220. Spot on.
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#220.
When Scotland regains full independence, I would think that they will very much still be part of the EU.
Scots are clever and resourceful.
I have no doubt that their highly talented people, which includes their politicians, who, let us English be honest, are also currently running England too, will make a great success of independence.
We English cannot blame the Scots for our political predicament - we have been far too apathetic politically - and have allowed a situation to occur whereby these Scottish politicians are running our England.
Fortunately, in a perverse sense, the economy is turning sour, Labour will be ejected, the Tories, by default will fill the boots at Westminster, and the Scots, via the SNP will say - thats it - we're off!
Which changes the game completely.
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http://politicsofalbion.blogspot.com/
for more on Brown.
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#227 eaton rifle, Yes his first manifesto went down like a lead balloon and they think Labour want to pinch Daves policies, not much chance of that, I think the Tory hierarchy wised after that one and said for Gods sake dont tell them anymore Dave we want to try and win the next election , we'll tell you what and when to say it , until then keep schtum!and he has.
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198 Subedeithemomgol. Thats one of the the most fatuous remarks on this blog.the request for an answer to a mandate for Gordon Brown has been answered so many times that its become almost as boring as your title.If you dont vote you dont criticise thats pretty obvious and should be simple enough for even you to understand.
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218 paulxj, your a very sick and delusional individual.there's about as much truth in your post as there' water in the desert and just as had to find
yes we are all living on the same planet as the PM the problem is if you have to ask where we are all living we have to ask where are you living, perhaps one day you'll come down and join us.
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To JohnConstable #230
"When Scotland regains full independence, I would think that they will very much still be part of the EU."
There is a lot of truth in what you say but whether they will still be members is an open question, as it is if Flanders in Belgium go it alone. I've read a lot of Belgian reports about this as I live there and the jury is out as to whether an independence vote transfers automatic EU membership for the new country or it has to be negotiated.
What an independent Scotland will also have to contend with is that they are very much on the geographical periphery of the EU and business may not be too interested in investing in them due to the known logistics problems of their being at the furthest point of the island. No matter how good or bad their managers are this will still apply.
Whatever happens you're right about the game changing, the next few years look to be very interesting in a perverse sort of way with a lot of redundant politiicians.
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# 235
Well, countries have come and gone from the EU, notably Greenland, which will turn out to be a very bad move from the EU perspective as it is mooted that Greenland has more untapped oil reserves than the USA ... so no prizes for guessing who is about to move in there.
Scotland will of course, have its share of what is left in the North Sea, as this was apparently parcelled up between England and Scotland right at the beginning of North Sea oil exploration.
It does not seem right that countries can come and go from the EU.
I would imagine that Scotland will be able to negotiate suitable terms for remaining in the EU.
Do states join and leave the USA .. no, they don't.
If you are a member of a club then it is a responsibility to assist in making it work and I believe that is what we English must do with the EU.
Which has some serious issues with democratic and fiscal accountability.
I am afraid you are way off beam in thinking there will be lots of redundant politicians ... you totally under-estimate the rat-like cunning of these people.
I suspect most of the soon to be redundant politicians at Westminster will already be frantically looking for cushy berths in the EU or our infamous quangos.
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#236
You may well be right about the rats leaving the sinking ship, I suspect there will be many Scottish based politicians trying to ensure they have English or other nationality if Scotland is obliged to negotiate entry into the EU and it takes some years. It is always certain they will seek to keep their snouts in the public trough somewhere, whether it be in the EU or useless quangos.
PS. I didn't know about Greenland, I'm wondering about the current status as although it seems it left in 1982 my basic searches suggest it is still a Danish overseas territory, watch out Denmark I think.
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228:
Your best chance of a recovery would be to replace GB with DM.
Please continue to espouse your view that the latter is not the way to go. It ensures a heavy defeat at the next GE and a chance for The Opposition to get in and sort out the mess before it's too late. Your support in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
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Out of the mists of time, in the natural cycle they call the Westminster wash and dry, emerged a buiffont young dashing man...
and he spouted forth all the bestest stuff about feely good, and said:
'I shall paint from here and everywhere, blue.'
Behind, somewhere, mr Boom Bust continued to sulk in the corner of his gloomy hallway.
All I can do is chuckle. Each region with its own unique tree? I dunno, really, i just dunno nutting at all.
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148
"An end to self-serving politicians maintaining a front of opposition for the public's benefit"
I'm afraid this Utopian belief illustrates the independence delusion remarkably well. Consider the strong possibility that an independent Scotland will be a Labour Scotland. Independence will be for life, as they say, not just for the duration of the movie.
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