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As MPs take a Whitsun break, I'm taking a few days to recover from Manchester United's night of glory in Moscow and late night by-electioneering in Crewe.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nick, Enjoy your break, but don't take too long as it's quite possible that Gordon Brown will have gone by the time you get back (palace coup or nervous breakdown).
Meanwhile we'll keep the site warm by goading and teasing the loyalist remnants of the once all-powerful Nu-Labour party who are running around squawking like turkeys on christmas eve. Crikey! They're even accusing the BBC - that den of liberal-left iniquity - of right-wing bias....
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#2 ScepticMax
Like your analogy about turkeys.
Just been on the news that the current deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman said the vast majority of Labour members were "solidly behind" Mr Brown. She omitted to add “with their packets of Paxo”
Margaret Beckett said Mr Brown must learn from the electorate's "clear desire to see a change”. Appears NuLabour members cant decide which flavour to use!
Meanwhile Mr Bean is down on the funny farm fixing the wheel that has fallen of his tractor.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I'm sure you celebrated both victories equally Nick.
As for Septic Max, Goad away, people take their pleasure in different ways. Why not simply celebrate with likeminded individuals,Norman Tebbitt, Michael Howard perhaps.
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4# Speaks volumes about you as a person. Anonymous is how you should remain
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#6
So Eatonrifle is not a nom de plume?
Anyway, my dad is bigger than yours, so there!
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As the politicians are taking time to reflect, the media holiday is some good timing from Nick and a lead we can all take advantage of. I could comment on the issues or respond to some of the bait but life is short. We can all get a little caught up in ourselves and events, and this short break will do everyone some good.
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8
Might do Gordon some good, not having to face DC at the dispatch box, but its only postponing it.
Whilst I respect your left wing stance, it is absolutely clear that the tectonic plates have shifted. A Conservative GE win is by no means guaranteed, but with or without Gordon Brown, Labour are on the decline. The "Not the Queens speech"
was a clear indication that Labour have run out of ideas. Don't be to disheartened. After years of Labour mismanagement and profligacy, it might be the election to lose.(as was the 1992 election)
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I am disappointed MP's are off for a week. I was looking forward to seeing David Cameron making fun out of Gordon Brown on Wednesday in Prime Ministers Questions.
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What is the most likely outcome for Gordon Brown? My views - ranked from most likely to least likely:
1. Following the next big blunder - people take to the streets and demand a Prime Minsiter who has actually been elected.
2. Gordon stumbles on for two years and loses the general election.
3. Senior Ministers call for Gordon to go in public.
4. Gordon calls a 'back me or sack me' vote of confidence among Labour MPs.
5. He steps down voluntarily.
6. Gordon turns the ship around and wins the General Election
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For all of living memory, it has been a binary, tribal slugfest between Labour and the Tories, as far as the Government of Britian was concerned.
So, it is somewhat understandable if that paradigm is embedded in the brains of the respective parties politicians.
However, it is very disappointing if political jounalists such as Matthew Parris persist in thinking in this binary way.
I suppose, in essence it is a London/Westminster-centric view of our politics.
Post the 2010 General Election, with the Tories in power at Westminster, the SNP in Scotland and Plaid in Wales then the political situation is going to very, very different for all who live on this island.
So, you'd hope that at least one or two political journalists would realise this and start looking forward in a way that reflects the likely political reality, especially in England.
I am pleased for England, that we English will get our country back again, politically speaking, and the likely emergence of what are currently tiny specks such as the English Democrats to start acting as a counterbalance to the Tories, along with the remnants of Labour in England, Lib-Dems, Greens and others.
Food for political thought during this break.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The best thing anyone can do is use the holiday for what it's for and not think at all. Let go of your worries and obsessions. Grasping is pointless and the BBC covers this in an opinion piece on obessing and work. It's wrong in many ways but I can't be bothered to argue it out as the general point is useful enough.
One thing people of an older generation used to do is have hobbies. They used to do the garden, build model boats, and tinker with the car. All that stuff's been replaced with browsing the web and other passive entertainment. I don't think it's quite the same thing. If people want to improve things they could make a start by getting a hobby.
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Nick,
A well earned rest, my wife enquired on Friday.
'Do BBC people like Nick Robinson and Robert Peston get paid overtime for all these long and irregular hours' ?
No reply needed, thanks.
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Have a good one, Nick; everyone deserves a break/holiday.
Charles_E_Hardwidge; excellent advice/thoughts there (posting 14) - there's a lot to be said for taking time-out and having hobbies that are unrelated to the daily grind.
Actually, taking short timeouts during a normal working day does wonders too.
It's also true, as per your posting, that browsing the web doesn't give you the same respite that doing a physical hobby would achieve. Always good to physically get away somewhere/somehow for a bit, even if it's just a walk around the block, or to make a toast-rack in the garden shed.
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Hi,
I just wanted to give you my view of Nick Robinson's political presentation. Surely it should be informed political analysis, but it comes over to me as though he is telling us, his audience, what to think. Using the word "failing" to describe the present Government and PM, as he did when he commented on the recent by election result, is surely his opinion and not fact as he seemed to present us with it.
There is one point I would like to make about recent events. A Government's most difficult task is persuading the all-powerful Treasury to finance its policies. In spite of the (in my opinion, rather manic former PM and apparently even more manic wife) the Labour Government seem to have been quite successful in this, until it failed to persuade the Treasury to raise the tax threshholds enough to avoid penalising many on low and fixed incomes when the 10p rate was abolished. In spite of this I am still inclined to think, our present Government is the most likely to be able to persuade the Treasury to make allowances for those of us on limited incomes. After all we can take advantage of paying 2pence in the £ less tax when we take on extra work,
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17
I would suggest that the Governments most difficult task is to stop asking the Treasury for more money and start making sure that the taxes they have plucked from the hard working families is well spent.
That would require a U turn from this spendthrift bunch who have proved up to now that they only know how to tax and borrow and have no idea as to how to spend money wisely.
This issue is amply exemplified by their snouts in the expenses trough, £96 to wash windows? At that price I would do it myself.
Pergolas in the back garden? How is that going to help the minister concerned to run her ministry.
We have been taken to the cleaners by this bunch and they might just have twigged that we know it.
Have a great holiday Nick, you deserve it.
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Post 14 - such Zen like wisdom as ever. I remember Blair/ Campbell using similar tactics to avoid things they didn't like to discuss.
Despite this, as always you identify the pressing issue of our time - hobbies. Perhaps Gordon should take something up to help him let off steam from his all obsessive politiking - governing perhaps?
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17
Astroturfer alert.
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megapoliticajunkie @20 - I agree with you about 17.
The ideal that this government is helpless in the face of the "all-powerful" Treasury is a hoot - especially as up until recently Brown was the Treasury and upon his departure to No 10 he installed his puppet Darling in his place.
Such confused thinking as shown by @17 above could only come from a frothy and air-headed PR source.
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A turning point in Gordon Brown's life was going to the US and watching Clinton's election spin. I think from this moment on, both he and Blair felt sure that the British people could be sold anything, and/or told that up was down and black was white.
Mr Brown's divorce from reality has continued ever since, but he is only one symptom of a changing zeitgeist that is irresistible. In every area - arts, the media, sport, economics, banking and politics - the age of Flash Form is drawing to a close. The age of Creative Content is about to dawn.
An excellent site, www.notbornyesterday.org, predicted an unravelling Premiership and economy for Brown in February 2007. Many others do the same thing.
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#22: oldbutnofool
A very good assessment of events as they unfolded in recent history.
One question did they predict the date at which spontaneous combustion would happen.
Please, please don’t tell me we have to wait until May 2010.
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You colleague Iain Watson reported today about Prescott's support for Brown. He concluded:
"Given this new reputation for openness, his endorsement of Gordon Brown is all the more significant as voters are unlikely to think that John Prescott is the sort of politician who says one thing in public and quite another in private."
Yeah, right! This about a man who pretended to be faithful to his wife in public, while having an affair with his secretary in private.
I wouldn't trust Prescott as far as I could throw him [sick. sic].
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I try to take a break 2-3 times an hour. It can just be making a cup of tea but it gives me an opportunity for a stretch. The body isn't built for sitting statically or working flat out for any length of time. Idiot bosses hate it but pushing too hard just undermines performance and makes people miserable.
An old friend gave me some advice like yours. He said if you had a sedate job, have an active hobby. If you have an active job, have a sedate hobby. It's only a rough guide but can help people weigh their options. My Doctor's universal cure-all is going for a walk.
I've noticed Nick's writing has become more rounded and even, and he takes more breaks than he used to. He still experiments occasionally and looks like he's taking care not to burn out. Being playful and going at life with a steady pace helps us avoid becoming cynical and jaded.
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#17 refers to politics being very different and raises the possibility of a change from the traditional 2 party "slugfest". Crewe and Nantwich was essentially a contest between the two biggest parties and I can see that being the case in many English constituencies at the next General Election, which should prove a fascinating election to try to call for political pundits.
There will be very different contests in England, Scotland and Wales. Labour will be fighting different battles on all fronts.
SNP will push them hard in many scottish constituencies, as will Plaid in Wales. The Tories are now outperforming them in England, and the BNP are polling well in traditional Labour areas - just look at where they won Council seats.
Trying to be all things to all people proved to be the mass appeal of new labour in the last three elections, but will be very tricky to maintain.
However my view is that both Labour and the Tories appear to have sufficient core voters in England to prevent a new political movement such as the english Democrats from gaining any real momentum. If the BNP, however take about 5% of the labour vote, as they appear to have done in the recent elections in London, that could be bad news for many English Labour MPs.
Some labour MPs saying a return to Old Labour is the answer. Realistically it's difficult to see what they can do to win back the Scots, the English Middle Classes and the BNP defectors - all of which will need to come back on board for Gordon to win the next election.
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#26: jacook_uk
I totally agree with your assessment. We do live in exciting times.
At least while the rest of us bend under the load created by NuLabour there will be a free show on the political arena - Comedy of errors! Wonder what the final act has in store?
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First off, I do agree that some sort of hinterland e.g. hobbies, is very desirable.
My comment about 'food for political thought' was really a plea to the professionals such as Nick et al to consider the view from outside the London/Westminster bubble going forward beyond 2010.
It will be quite difficult for parties such as the English Democrats (ED) to gain traction, but looking forward the the post-2010 era when Britain rapidly is ceasing to be, in the political sense, then this should open a window of opportunity in England for groups like the ED, possibly at the expense of the BNP.
Which at the very least would have to rename itself or look pretty redundant.
At least, there will always be an England.
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Fair enough. I'm just saying that unless people learn to empty their minds they can't let anything new in or allow what's there to work its magic. I figure, we can become super-stressed by policy and peer pressure and letting go a bit can do some good. So, it looks like we agree on the principle.
I'm a bit of a one party state man so in theory we should never agree. In reality, both approaches are indistinguishable and it's probably true of party politics as well. The real problem is ego. So, I breathlessly await Imperious Leader's plan to increase joyous recreational endevour.
*swossh* *swoosh*
By your command
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24 Scepticmax. re John Prescotts infidelity you mean the one he stood up in front of congress and apologized for after he had apologized to his wife. You would'nt trust him no further than you could throw him, Is that in the same way that you could'nt trust John Major, Edwina Currie, David Mellor, Tim Yeo, Cecil Parkinson, and dear old Alan Clarke, just to mention a few, Sceptic is just about right, you either have a poor memory or a very selective one.
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Grandantidote #30:
It is, I regret, only human to have a somewhat selective memory where the infidelities of politicians are concerned. I am not referring to brain power or size, but surely John Prescott sturdily stands out!
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#31 mighty angela. sorry angela, first sentence I'm with you. second I might be a bit slow but I dont quite understand what your getting at, do you mean that the infidelities of the Prime minister and one of the ministers that went on for years, or the antics of Cecil Parkinson when his secretary gave birth to his child. or Alan [lock up your daughters] Clark was caught at it not once but many times, were all less important than John Prescotts brief infidelity with his secretary. Or is it the man they once again want to pillory. not the question of infidelity. I might have the wrong end of the stick but perhaps you could explain to an old man.
But surely John Prescott sturdily stands out as what?
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"152. At 12:46 pm on 25 May 2008, grandantidote wrote:
131 AE Miller Re John- punch -em -in -the -face Prescott, I'm a little tired of these stupid glib remarks.If some idiot three feet away from you deliberately threw an egg in your face, I suppose you would turn the other cheek..."
My point was not that Mr Prescott did something beyond the pale by hitting back but that he's never struck me as a tolerant man without a temper... so for him to criticise someone else as being short tempered when he is himself has
exhibited a very short temper on a number of occasions is a bit po-faced in my view. He wasn't called Prescott the "bruiser" for nothing. In many ways it was a good thing as his temper fitted his function of keeping people in line and he has many other good qualities that make up for this in my view but for him to call someone else short tempered when he's been filmed throwing your fists about does make him a bit of a hippo in my book...
"ask the men in the forces what they would have done, I know, and thank God they've got that spirit, but perhaps youre not one of them"
Sadly I can't say I live up to your ideal of manhood.
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#32
In reply to Grandantidote #32.
With the exception of Alan Clark, the other gentlemen (for use of a better word which the moderators would forbid), were in my opinion such poor specimens of manhood, that their infidelities pale into insignificance compared to the mighty Prescott.
Alas, poor Grandantidote, if you can't work out what John Prescott stands out for, then you are even older than I am!
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grandantidote @32:
I hold no brief (or admiration) for John Major, Edwina Currie, David Mellor, Tim Yeo or Cecil Parkinson. (I did admire Alan Clark for his 'don't give a sh!t' attitude and his entertaining diaries - but then he never claimed - or had claims made about him - that he was a man of fidelity).
My criticism was at the notion that the adulterous and lying John Prescott "is [not] the sort of politician who says one thing in public and quite another in private". The only reason the 'bulimic' glutton apologised at all was because he was caught with his pants down.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It seems an appropriate time to reflect on the New Labour project and why it went wrong.
I struggled through Peter Mandelson's book* on Tony Blair/NL a while back to try and understand it but really finished the book not much wiser.
As I now comprehend it, the project failed, not because there were'nt any good ideas in it, but because once New Labour were in Government, Gordon Brown basically blocked most of Blairs reforms.
Whether he did this because of a personal antipathy or because he (Brown) was more towards 'Old' Labour, only those on the inside could tell.
Whatever, New Labour still managed to spend vast amounts of taxpayers money over the past dedace, much which has been perceived to have been utterly wasted during these past ten years, and it is indeed fortunate that the economy was large enough to cope with this level of wastage.
Now, we are going to be going into an entirely new political framework around 2010, whereby England, Scotland and Wales operate more-or-less independently of each other.
I am not interested in Scotland or Wales, politically speaking, but look forward very much to England's political rebirth - an English renaissance.
* One of only two 'political' books I have ever read - the other being Barack Obama's Audicity of Hope - much more like it.
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Do you feel (Nick, being a political analyst/expert) that the Tories' recent plans to force young people back into work are:
a)discriminating on the basis of age -
who is to say that young people should have to work while older people may still work the benefits system?
b)decidedly radical and communist due to the elements of forced labour.
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I must correct something - I said that I've only read two political books - that is wrong.
I forgot to mention Jonathon Freedland 'Bring Home the Revolution' which really opened this posters eye's to just how little meaningful democracy we English have.
It is truly pitiful, our democratic structures are literally hundreds of years out-of-date and the botched Blair reforms of the HoL were only a token measure towards dragging our democracy forward.
It really does need a revolution - which fortunately is exactly what we English are about to get - once we regain control of our country around 2010, then we can modernise the democracy, using technology to leap beyond even what Freedland proposed in his book.
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35sceptic max, John was caught with his pants down,you know that do you? of course the Tory culprits probably confessed all without ever getting caught, but of course Prescott is a socialist so whatever he did had to be at least justified by five Tories caught at it thats about power for the course for someone like you. your even happy after his confession to being a bulimic to use that in a derogatory way against him and none of the others ever told a lie did they,you are really unpleasant person are'nt you, it might interest you to know that the man you give credit to Alan Clark is the only man ever to be found to be drunk at the dispatch box, you are an excellent judge of character thats for sure tells us something about you does'nt it
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34 mighty angela.I really am quite sure that I know what John Prescott stands for but I am still not sure what you think he stands for.
Not only gentlemen but also lady dont leave her out.
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The days of Blair's grin and spin Nulabour are looking decidedly over. The problem being that we will end up with a one party state . Perhaps to ensure a sort of socialist dimension the Co-Operative Party will have the Balls to put its head above the parapet - sever its links with the Tories ( sorry NuLabour) and give those of a socialist leaning something to look to.
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In Nick's absence, it is interesting to try to predict what particular head of steam will have built over these few days, and for me a few points very much signpost the most likely movement of public opinion, hence the issues to be tapped by an astute opposition. In fact I think Mr Cameron has already made a start.
If government has its way:
1. a motorist with a perfectly MOT-legal gas ticket will pay extra punitive tax based on the actual reading. This will hurt the less well off more than most.
2. we will be issued with personal carbon allowances. It can all be checked centrally;it is a swingeing instrument of taxation
3. it will be not be the done thing to mention the possibility of positive police action against the appalling rise in violent youth crime
4. the belief that school holidays cause the current deficits in literacy and numeracy will be promulgated
5. fuel tax will carry on carrying on
Oh dear, more yet more of the same arrant fuss and nonsense. Policy making by neither party will win or lose the next election. The goverment's own maniacal death wish will handle everything, and soon.
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Nick, the Phoeneix Mars lander deployed by NASA has found evidence on Mars that a Stalking Horse should challenge Gordon for the leadership of the Labour party, according to the 'Daily Mash'.
I am alarmed at this for obvious reasons:
1. Why has the BBC not reported this event?
2. We pay for the BBC and expect a service.
3. YOU! Are expected to report such things.
4. Satellite TV news may beat you to this.
5. Should the BBC therefore be privatised?
What is it with newsmen when they can't see a story rolled out before them?
We demand more and more 'Gordon faces a challenge from within' stories, no matter where they are dug from.
We particularly prefer the 'sources' items or 'junior minister' stuff, so come on, pull your socks up. Those rabid Tories need a feeding.
Way to go!
Gary
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44 Gary, a great post but though these stories are indeed probably out there in the boonies nestling up against Saddam's WMD, Shergar and so on, more likely that the real stories will be forecasts of lost votes in the Commons (the 28+ days' detention measures for example) either by backbench abstention or (as the shark pool beckons) voting with the opposition. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Interesting enough times nevertheless
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Take a break? The one person who can't take a break from his relentless downward spiral into the history books is Gordon Brown.
He's achieved their worst poll ratings for three decades, got them kicked out of London, lost a safe seat in their Midlands heartlands and managed to bankrupt a bank for the first time in 140 years.
There's no way any of us should take a break from commenting on Gordon Brown's relentless record breaking. This man is gold dust. (no pun intended) If Roy Castle and Norris and Ross McWhirter were alive today they'd be banging his door down to get him a special entry in the Guinness book of records.
'He's a record breaker' 'Dedication, dedication, dedication, is what it takes'
This may look like negative thinking to some but I call it factual reporting of an appalling track record in office. Any attempt to say otherwise is burying your head in the sand - something all governments are prone to when they get it so tragically wrong.
I should think there are a few hundred NuLabour MPs who would like a break from all the negative reporting, but it will just go on until they rid themselves of their dithering and incompetent leader. He plotted for ten years to get rid of his predecessor, I don't see why the debate about how to get rid of Gordon. Someone need to go in and tell him in the same way he told Blair. When are you going to leave? (Except I understand it was a little stronger than that)
Any NuLabour MP still dithering about this decison needs to get on a plane and find out what has happened to our standing internationally since Gordon Brown took over..sterling down 25% against the Euro and no-one outside the UK understands why on earth he got the job. This is a serious country that needs a serious leader who will stand up for our country. Not someone who ignores manifesto pledges, doesn't bother to turn up to sign treaties and spins his way to a 'different' kind of relationship with the US. Poppycock, all of it.
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Gary (GaryElsby 44), you are such a poet. As I understand it, 'the stalking horse on mars' story is a complete fabrication, conjured up by New Labour to steal our attention from the real story New Labour are currently suppressing: That Ms Blair's autobiography (chazzer to her friends) is revealing so much about the inside dealings in the new labour camp. It's creating an amazing buzz of excitement across the globe. Just a few extracts for you: 'Tony looked at me and cried when I told him I loved him', or how about, 'surely, I thought, how could anyone not love Tony.' hang on, what about 'In my eyes the only thing lovlier than Tony is a Greggs cream bun'. and my favourite, 'I asked Tony how we could increase happiness (one for you Charles) and he said, with love we can achieve anything'. Stirring stuff!
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#47 The journey changes people.
Whatever Cherie Blair/Booth was, she certainly is not now.
Even the brightest star in the political firmament right now, Senator Barack Obama, is being changed by the journey.
Literally, as he flies around the USA courtesy of private jet with Robert (DeNiro) and Oprah.
The detachment from the reality of the people is simply part of that journey, as we saw all too clearly with the Blair's.
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48 JohnConstable:
Ahhh the journey indeed, such sweet thoughts, lifes long (this is where you come in Charles) pursuit of happiness, turned turgid by the sterile disbelief of our detractors, pheeew! Carry on like this and i'll be in with a chance at the next Booker.
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Re: 44 Gary, never mind the Daily Mash, it's all in last week's Spectator. Or did you know that?
Alan Johnson, anyone?
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#50
Alan Johnson - no.
As he said himself when introducing himself to Jamie Oliver recently :
"Hi, I'm this weeks education secretary".
In that single sentence, you can see why it really is a terrible idea for Government to have any 'hands-on' role in our English children's education.
In my opinion, Government should get out of the business of 'providing' a virtual monopoly education 'service' for the English people's children.
For the simple reasons that :
a) they are not very good at it
b) it is a monopoly (unless you are wealthy) which is bad for consumers
We don't need no thought control, ... hey, gummint, leave them kids alone.
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Ahhhh, how sweet and affectionate Conservatives are. 'Tony cried', they say as Cherie told him she loved him.
Laugh and the world will laugh with you. Just ask William Hague (No.2).
Aren't we missing the point!
David Miliband has categorically stated that he is neither a horse, a stalking horse, a possible or even a possible contender for the vacancy of Prime Minister that is neither vacant or open to a vacancy.
Should the story be, whether we or they like it or not, a 'David Miliband denies he is a horse or a stalker' story?
I'm getting very concerned with the quality of journalists and journalism.
I'm more used to journalistic crackpots who have a fear of water and express such by foaming at the mouth.
Take any Chief Political correrspondent you like in a satellite setting and you'll see what I mean.
'David Miliband denies!' says the ex Daily Mail reporter.
David Miliband denies he's David Miliband but why would he wish to?
As a Labour Party member who relies entirely on my news by journailists (rather than make it up myself) I question the legitimacy of the quality of journalism and I say please, spare us.
Just tell me the truth. Is David Miliband a stalking horse who wants to be the Prime Minister or is he the Foreign Secretary?
Why should I believe that he is actually David Miliband?
The REAL David Miliband wants to be the Prime Minister (I know this) and the satellite one denies this (because he just said so).
I'm nobody's fool and I'm not stupid, I'm just confused (of Stoke).
I understand that medication will help but I can't get it through my television screen to administer it to him.
So if you happen to stumble across an ex Daily Mail Chief Political correspondent at throwing out time please inform him that Cherie loves Tony, that Gordon is the Prime MInister and that we are convinced that David Miliband is who he says he is and he doesn't want to be Prime Minister just yet.
Phew!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
# scepticmax you really are a piece of work are'nt you? to be frank I'm amazed that your last paragraph got past the moderator they must have been at lunch when this garbage slipped through the net, there are some people in life that you come across that although they are rude and offensive you try to be kind and helpful and understanding towards them, but you old chum are not at all worth the effort, I could say so much more but my comments unlike yours probably would'nt get past the moderator. as much as I enjoy these blogs and the rather odd people you meet on them I'm afraid that I cant be doing with you.
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51 John Constable, re Alan Johnson, time for a sense of humor check John he was talking to an arch joker at the time.
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grandantidote @54
I see you've been successful at activating the censors. Oh. Well done!
For the benefit of those who would like to actually read what incensed your sensitivities, for the forth time, I'll try again, with ironics.
My main point was that a obviously deluded reporter was portraying Prescott as someone "voters are unlikely to think that John Prescott is the sort of politician who says one thing in public and quite another in private.".
Furthermore, Prescott's 'confession' to being 'bulimic' is indeed a cry for help: help in selling his worthless memoirs.
Only in the cloud-cuckoo land of Nu Labour supporters could Prescott's [one of the seven deadly sins beginning with 'g'] be called 'bulimia'.
All this, of course, doesn't excuse Tory flaws, crimes, mistakes and peccadillos. But they were not the subject of my original post. I was talking about the highly talented, fit [as in healthy!], faithful, competent, moderately behaved and honest former deputy prime minister.
Clear now?
As for me being 'unpleasant' (your post @40): Sure, the truth sometimes is unpleasant.
I may disagree with what you say, grandantidote, but I would not censor you. Herein lies the difference between us: I may be obnoxious in your eyes. You, on the other hand, are a danger to everyone's freedom.
BBC Moderator - what element of my previous (censored) post is not factually true?
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#56 sceptic max, If you write with a little respect you'll be fine. there are a number of people in the house of commons that I dislike intensly but I as a child I was always taught, that manners cost nothing, whether you like John Prescott or not is beside the point, The man was there doing his job to the best of his ability,and I think well, you may not agree with that and thats your right but your spiteful childlike and offensive remarks were well beyond what any decent person would accept, I suppose you think its alright to ridicule the man for being bulemic but if you had a child that was bulemic you might, just might feel differently, if he had a heart problem or cancer would you be equally offensive. As for me chum I have always been able to look after myself adequately in every way and I mean every way. I am not endangering anyones freedom I just dont like intimmidation whether against myself or people who through decorum are not able to answer themselves.I am afraid that you have learnt nothing so best take a tablet for the fourth time and lay down.
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grandantidote @57 You are not just censorious, you are pompous too.
Respect - so far a public figures are concerned - needs to be earned.
I'll continue to write as I please.
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Re: #57 Grandantidote
I must state that I find your style of writing fits perfectly with your thoughts. You appear to be a man bent on defending the sensibilities of politicians, whom are basically the thickest skinned creatures in the universe. The only way you can hurt a politician, of any party, is through his/her purse, and yet you insist on expecting people to treat them with respect.
I do not believe in censureship, would never call upon moderators to remove fellow-bloggers postings, but then I am not a Marxist, nor a repressed humanbeing.
It seems you enjoy berating those with whom you do not agree, sometimes you appear to be literally foaming at the mouth. I don't wish to agitate you further, but as a woman I will conclude by saying Prescott is one of the most revolting slobs it has ever been the misfortune of the public to subsidise. If he was a travelling comedian of the old type, on the Variety Empire circuit, one could either laugh at him, or more likely bring out a long hooked stick and whisk him off the stage and away from the spotlight.
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Re: 55
And indeed my point (that there are stalking horses galore; or two to date, which for stalking horses is a fair good number) is made in the belief that if what we are meant to be blogging about is political news, then we really ought to start by trying to know what it is.
Or is this all just about lunchtime?
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#55
I saw the piece, I think Jamie was trying to get decent school dinners for children, and I realised at the time that Alan Johnson meant it as some sort of wry joke.
But when you consider that people in industry spend sometimes decades to get to the top of their organisations, learning everything about it on the way, it is completely and utterly absurb for some politician to be placed in these jobs by the PM, in huge organisations like the NHS, MoD and the Education department, like some sort of sweets being handed out.
Totally insane and no way to run a country.
It is not us, the people of England who need to be carefully controlled, it is the politicians, but unfortunately we have a massive democratic deficit, which means the inverse is true.
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Grandantidote my friend you can't try and explain anything about respect or common decency to some of the rabid right wingers on here.
All of them when talking about the Prime Minister always make their criticisms personal. Why should they be any different when commenting on John Prescott?
When "mighty"angela comes out with
"I will conclude by saying Prescott is one of the most revolting slobs it has ever been the misfortune of the public to subsidise." you know that reasoned debate is pointless.
They always resort to the politics of personality because when it comes to policies they have no clue whatsoever.
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The effect of John Prescott's affair on the perception of his honesty is not really an issue to get worked up about.
The issue is that he is a serial liar when it comes to his reflections on what has happened in the Government. During his time as deputy prime minister he repeatedly denied that there were any disagreements between Blair and Brown. Every time stories appeared in the papers he dismissed them as 'prattle'.
But when it came to selling his book, he was quite happy to confirm that the stories had been true all along and to demonstrate that we should not have believed a word he ever said.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re No.2 septicmax wrote
"....Meanwhile we'll keep the site warm by goading and teasing the loyalist remnants of the once all-powerful Nu-Labour party who are running around squawking like turkeys on christmas eve. Crikey! They're even accusing the BBC - that den of liberal-left iniquity - of right-wing bias."
an interesting point, I suppose we can only judge on the basis of our own personal centre ground whether the media is left or right wing bias. In relation septicmax judges the centre to be on the right. so he thinks their is a left wing bias. Mine is slightly to left so I will judge it as right wing bias.
Thankfully, We live in a liberal country. liberal is a positive word not a negative word. it means open minded, willing to change.
You have every write to say that John Prestcott is overweight and is flogging his book. Just as I have a right to say that Ken Clarke is overweight and has worked for a company which sells cancer sticks to the third world.
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Since we don't have a strand on the governments probable next U turn can I canvass opinion on the motoring debate
I have two questions
First, do WE pay tax on fuel from our already taxed income and is ALL of the price (Fuel + Tax) subject to VAT, ie taxed a third time?
Second, if the government's proposed licence fee is implemented will the older cars, which are mainly owned by the poorer of the population, including pensioners, then become of no resale value. If this is the case would those people thus be priced out of car ownership altogether, possibly leading to an increase in car crime?
I would value your opinions.
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dhwilkinson@65, Thank you for your support of free speech.
Funnily, I happen to agree with your assessment of Ken Clarke - and could heap much more opprobrium on the old fox! But as a politician and a thinker he is leagues ahead of Prescott (but then, who is not?).
BTW, there is a world of difference between the good old values of 'liberal' and the PC madness and straight-jacket mindset of 'liberal-left'. I know it's confusing, but the very meaning of words has become distorted to reflect political bias. I guess I'm as guilty as any of such usage: Mea culpa.
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@66 mikepko
What is wrong with a U turn in this case?
There is a problem with the price of fuel leading to high inflation. Should the prime minister be stopped from acting on this by playing politics?
Refusing to U turn could be seen as strength, but it could also be seen stubborn and closed minded. So conservatives win whatever the prime minister does.
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Dear points of View,
I'm writing in an angry protest at the deliberate ingnoring by the BBC of the great Nick Pisani of Question Time.
For years this man has silently toiled to bring us the best ever political show on the telly but he is constantly ignored by Jonathan's brother, David Dimbleby.
Mr. Pisani forever has his hand up pleading to ask his question but is constantly overlooked.
Please can Mr. Dimbleby let Mr. Pisani ask his question?
I'm sure it is the following: Should Gordon Brown be challenged for the leadership of the Labour Party?
Could David ask the panel to comment, starting with the Author (and part time shadow Foreign secretary) William Hague?(who will answer, YES) and could every member of the Labour Party be allowed to give a response (which will be NO).
Thank you for your consideration in this request.
Mr. Angry from Stoke.
PS. Has the BBC sussed out that the Conservative Party have no policies? Not a sausage.
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#65 dh wilkinson,I agree totally that sceptic max has the right to free speech no one denies that but perhaps you did'nt read the post before it was removed if you did and you think that it was OK then perhaps you also need to think what free speech really means. If you did'nt read it then it is difficult for you to give an independant opinion about what it contained,I too think that John Prescott is fat so are about three quarters of all the MPs in parliament including Ken Clark who incidentally is one of the few Tories that I respect, he also al;ways had a glass of whisky by his side when at the dispatch box, so should we call him a glutinous[because he's fat] fat alcoholic, this was very mild compared to what sceptic max called Prescott had he have made the same comments about Ken or any other MP then I should have reacted in the same way. my argument with sceptic max was not that he did'nt show no respect to John Prescott thats his yours and my choice, my argument was that he used bulimia as a part of his disrespect, bulimia is a scourge on many young people out there and many parents are worried sick about this complaint, Prescott admitted that he had suffered with bulimia for years, how sceptic max thought that Prescott considered that it would help him sell more books is beyond me but then much of sceptic max's rhetoric is beyond me . You can hate John Prescott or love him thats each persons choice but enough people thought good of him for some thirty years to make and keep him as an MP and people close to him thought enough of him to make deputy PM for ten years without a challenge, but this was not about Prescott, and certainly not about the right of free speech, it was about the derogatory remarks regarding bulemia and the lack of sensitivity contained in those remarks. those that didnt read the post need to wind their necks back in and take a reality check, and dont comment on something you didnt read.
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@70 grandantidote.
relating to @67 dhwilkinson
I would suggest you look at scepticmax@2 2nd paragraph. He seems to be doing very well at winding you up.
I was not talking about freedom of speech. I was talking about this trivial pointless name calling celebrity gossip column style subject that this thread is on at the moment.
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grandantidote @70,
Amusing that you rebuke someone ("dont comment on something you didnt read.") for commenting on something that they couldn't read because your Mary Whitehouse sensitivities got it pulled by the censors.
If John Prescott had/has bulimia then I'm a banana. His corporeal appetites were just very large - nearly as large as his ego. As for him being an elected MP for 30 years, that says much about his party and voters. In some Labour seats you could nominate a thick, thuggish, oaf and he'd be elected. And in some they did just that.
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59 mighty angela, At last I can make some sense about what your saying, in your case you hate all politicians in mine I dont, thats
simple is'nt it.You say you believe in free speech so do I with one or two exceptions,
I dont believe that people should be able to roam our streets encouraging people to kill or maim their hosts, and I dont think that neo nazi's should be allowed to make rabid speeches against people from another race, so you see free speech is what we pertain to think it is perhaps you think differently and thats your choice and thats free speech,
With regard to the moderator perhaps you hav'nt found anything offensive enough to report to the moderator maybe one day you will, this is not a playground were you say I saw him/her do wrong but I'm not going to dob him in, I'm afraid that that sort of mindset is leading to why so many silly kids are able to go about stabbing one and other, I'm not going to dob him ineven if he has a bloodstained knife!
Your last paragraph does'nt require an answer anyone reading it will form their own opinions about the sort of person you are.
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It strikes me that the valid criticisms of John Prescott are:
(1) That he prioritised governmental unity over being open about Blair and Brown's dislike of each other. (True but what else was he supposed to do as Deputy Party Leader?)
(2) He has also cashed in on this in an attempt to sell his memoirs which are being released at a particularly unhelpful time for the Prime Minister.
All the rest of the nonsense about bulimia, extra-marital affairs, "thuggishness" etc is just spiteful tripe and given the source of the criticisms pretty much par for the course.
Maybe some of the rabid right wingers on here just "get off" on personal attacks.
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68 wilco
Nothing wrong with a U turn here at all. It is a good idea not to penalise the poor.
Unfortunately it will be seen as not thinking policy through, yet again so I thin GB and AD will resist as long as possible.
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A few days' break???
Holidays aren't compusory, you know!
Have a good one.
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peteholly @28. It might be 'spiteful' but it's not tripe - it's truth.
I don't 'get off' on personal attacks, but I do admit to enjoying goading and teasing Labour supporters. (Not as much fun as fox hunting, though. I'm told the foxes are smarter).
Tally ho!
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I think it is a pretty futile exercise picking over the various attributes of individual politicians.
These politicians are human beings doing whatever they are doing within the system.
If the system itself is perceived by us, the English people, to not be functioning particularly well, then we have work towards changing it.
It may be too much to expect the politicians working within this system of Government to be the actors for reform.
The available evidence seems to indicate that they are more comfortable with 'was is', rather than 'what could be'.
Once there was a way to get back home ... and we English need to find that way.
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71 D h wilkinson 1 was refering to your last paragraph 67which although not mentioning my title it implied that I had suggested that I was opposed to free speech since you or he have'nt any idea why he was reported other than what I have told you, although he probably has but with ref to 71 I can assure your that he isnt winding me up he has'nt the intelligence for that if you want to compare personalities and how wound up I am as compared to him then read the post addresses to you#70 and now read sceptic max's letter72 were his rantings not only include John Prescott but the whole government and cast doubt on the sanity of thousands of voters,I think thats certainly opening up the spectrum. but not for me I suppose that in life we come up against ignorance I fell for it now I will Ignore it, sceptic max is a literary bully he knows that its safe for him to spiel vitriolic remarks on all and sundry but only from the security of his computer. I'm afraid that in life I do not bother with people of that kind and I dont wish to here.
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# 62/ 74 Pete Holly thank you my friend I endorse every thing you say the only policy they have is, if you cant think of anything intelligent to say then lets see who we can vilify today that will take their mind of the lmportant things that we have to deal with on a daily basis, paragraph two I do agree with you but he had been beaten to the post by cherie and levy. but your right he should have waited.
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#72 so sceptic max is a banana well that tells us a lot , and there was I hoping that he'd say something intelligent, its all become abundantly clear now , well we cant expect to much from a banana, can we!
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# 78 John Constable, I agree almost totally with you except for your last sentence it should read "and we british need to find that way"
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67 ScepticMax
I enjoy fox hunting too. Lots of people I know - all very working class and NOT TOFFS - enjoy the hunt, either on horseback or following.
When the Fox Hunting Bill went through I suggested another version - Labour MP Hunting with Dogs, but my friends said it wouldn't be much fun as Prescott would only get a few yards and Brown would bore the hounds to sleep.
Pity. It would have saved us a lot of problems now.
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# 58 sceptic max , you say i'll continue to write as I please, well my rather thick friend thats clearly not the case on these blogs as you have very recently found out to your obvious embarrassment and consternation.Your post would'nt have been removed if it had'nt been offensive not only to me but to the moderators, try to take it like a man, if thats what you are.
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# 82
Who is British today?
a) Scottish politicians plying their trade at Westminster.
b) recent immigrants who are understandably looking for a new identity.
c) anybody else who is not Cornish*, English, Scottish or Welsh.
* I had some complaints from the Cornish last time I composed this list as they were inexplicably left off.
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# 83 mikepko, why am i not surprised that you and sceptic max like fox hunting, You sit on a horse and chase until exhausted a little animal about a tenth of your size, not alone though you need about forty or fifty other idiots on horses to bolster your courage and of course lets not forget that you need about the same amount of dogs to protect you, their only reward is to be able to rip the fox to shreds when exhaustion finally beats the little fellow.
he has no chance to defend himself just like you two bravely vilify beyond reason on a daily basis the government of this country much to the glee of our enemies knowing that there is no chance that they can fight back, your either secure on a horse or sitting behind a computer knowing you cant be touched,both of you giggling away like schoolchildren but with a little less brain power.
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#73 Grandantidote
Sir,
Read your comments with regret. Will not be responding to them any further because I think you are, to put it gently, nasty, and I do not wish to have a feud by computer.
I would defend free speech even of those whom I hate and whom hate me. That is true democracy. I would encourage them to spill all their bile out and use rhetoric to defend my cause and expose them as fools.
Finally, may I suggest that the kids who stab each other have been raised in such an atmosphere of political correctness that they cannot speak out what they feel, cannot tell others what they think of them, so just shove in a knife or use a gun.
That is the heritage that nu-labour and the practitioners of political correctness have endowed to our miserable youth. Obviously you are a true proponent of political correctness!
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85John constable. all that you mention are british we may have our preferences for an example in sport but when faced with adversity we forget these things and become the United Kingdom I am Welsh you presumably are English but we fought side by side as Britainsfor decades when I meet a Scot or a guy from Nortern ireland a Cornishman they may have a slightly different accent thats true but we all are British subjects, I am proud to be Welsh but I am also proud to be British and quite pleased to be a citizen of Europe I have lived in many of the above coumtries and have always been treated with respect except for one or two exceptions, and lets face it you get that on these blogs, buts thats what being British is to me. Stand by for the racist comments from the less educated amongst us.
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#88
Being 'British' intrinsically means belonging to a political entity.
I believe that that political entity is very near the end of its shelf-life and in a few years time will be no more than a memory.
Throughout history, political entities have come and gone.
I too am proud to be English, a member of the Commonwealth, a citizen of the EU and of the world.
I just do not see the need to be British as well, which in effect is merely bolstering a defunct political class at Westminster.
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Ref my post #77: I've never been fox hunting, probably never will - not my cup of tea. But I'll be damned if I let my tastes dictate to others what they may or may not do. I have a lot of respect for country people and their way of live.
I'll not reply to grandantitode's attempts at insult - he's doing a good enough job of holding up himself to ridicule.
Meanwhile, back in the [un]real world: The Spectator reports that TV cameras trooped in to film the beginning of Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling’s meeting with various oil big-wigs this morning. After Brown thought they’d stopped filming, he announced:
“Well that was an unreal start to a meeting… Now we can relax!”
This really is Potemkin politics. It is hard to imagine that many voters will be fooled by today’s ‘summit’.
All Brown needs to do is cut tax and duty on fuel (we already pay over 70% of the pump price on duty, tax and VAT) and the problem's solved. Except, of course, that he doesn't have any money in the kitty having wasted £2.7 billion in an unsuccessful attempt to bribe the voters of Crewe and Nantwich, and has untold billions tied up as security for Northern CRock.
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#90 sceptic max perhaps I should have checked you post 67 mikepoko83 I am afraid threw me and for that I apologize.
I also like country folk having been born on a farm and brought up for a number of years on one, but dont be fooled by the Idea that all country folk love fox hunting as that patently is'nt true. I am afraid that I do let my tastes dictate what others do or hopefully try to, hence the destuction of Hitler and his cronies not by my hand alone thank goodness but suported by millions of like minded people I use that as just one example of what I dont accept, a pretty powerful argument in favour of argument in imposing your beliefs on other people I guess but neverthless valid.there are limits to what all of us will accept in life even you old chum. Nice to see that your post has become more moderate despite your attempt to embarress me.
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91 grandantidote
Interesting you helped destroy Hitler. My mother, who likes seeing the hunt, saw Hitler in 1943 after she had been taken to Germany for slave labour. She is a country girl and oddly I am a town, or outskirts of, from guess where - Tunbridge wells, And oddly again I am not disgusted by hunting.
I am disgusted however by the waste of huge amounts of money by governments, the erosion of human rights by governments, and the stupidity and violence of human beings.
I think we should get things in proportion and look at each and every event as it comes, not be swayed by any idealogy.
And while I vote Conservative it is not to put TOFFS in power but because I believe in the individual and not in the state, as it is doing now, trying to control the lives of individuals in each and every way. In this I take after my mother who has fought hard to keep our home going and experienced the nasty side of life with the murder of her family during the war.
Be pragmatic!!!
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@90 scepticmax"All Brown needs to do is cut tax and duty on fuel (we already pay over 70% of the pump price on duty, tax and VAT) and the problem's solved. Except, of course, that he doesn't have any money in the kitty having wasted ?2.7 billion in an unsuccessful attempt to bribe the voters of Crewe and Nantwich, and has untold billions tied up as security for Northern CRock."
Maybe you are right the fuel duty should be brought down to avoid inflation. but didn't your party favour tax allowances instead of tax credits and the 10p rate? The fuel price is not only to do with price. So what is your party going to do about the green agenda or is it just hot air? I too hope the Northern Rock affair turns out well.
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@90 scepticmax"All Brown needs to do is cut tax and duty on fuel (we already pay over 70% of the pump price on duty, tax and VAT) and the problem's solved. Except, of course, that he doesn't have any money in the kitty having wasted ?2.7 billion in an unsuccessful attempt to bribe the voters of Crewe and Nantwich, and has untold billions tied up as security for Northern CRock."
Maybe you are right the fuel duty should be brought down to avoid inflation. but didn't your party favour tax allowances instead of tax credits and the 10p rate? The fuel price is not only to do with tax. So what is your party going to do about the green agenda or is it just hot air? I too hope the Northern Rock affair turns out well.
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Re: 90#
Brown's comment is simply an "icebreaker"which all meeting chairmen use.
Seems strange that even the most innocuous of comments by our Prime Minister sends you into convulsions. Let go of some of the bile, it's obviously poisoning your brain. It might aid you in producing some arguments with credibility.
Mind you the cleansing process might take you a while.
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dhwilkinson @93:
Firstly, I don't have a party, I'll vote Tory in the forthcoming General Election (which ain't, incidentally, forthcoming enough), but that is due to a lack of any better alternative.
70% of the fuel price is totally due to tax. If it were not, then we - as major producers of crude oil - could have fuel as cheap as it is in the US - or cheaper still. The UK government chooses how much tax/duty to levy, and what to 'invest'/spend/waste it on. These are totally political decisions, nothing to do with the price of crude.
As for the so-called 'green agenda' that's worse than hot air - it's fraud. Peeking outside this miserable May, I'm not much enjoying any 'global warming'. Ooops, sorry! This week it's 'climate change'. I really must keep abreast of the ever changing terminology enviro-fundamentalists and other collectivists use to keep us taxed to the max, guilt-ridden and miserable.
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peteholly @95: Try this 'bile' for size: "our 'Prime Minister' " (it has to be written in inverted commas, one surely cannot describe him as such with a straight face) Brown will surely need the services of a truly skillful proctologist to excise some of the more zealous of his sycophantic followers.
And as you say: "the cleansing process might take you a while".
Tootle pip.
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Why does the time of Nick's blog be shown in such a mongrelised way? 08:36 AM surely should be 8:36 am (12 hour clock) or 0836 (24 hour clock). the system seems to have got it right on all the comments, why not on the blog?
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92 mikepko I am sorry to hear that your mother suffered so during the war but it only strengthens my point that sometimes you have to impose you tastes on others as sceptic max puts it we dont all think the same and sometimes some people have to be put under control for an example the man who disrespected your mother and family.
I 'm sorry that you mum likes fox hunting strange that someone who has been so badly treated would want to see such pain inflicted on a small creature but then it takes all kinds to make a World, other than the fox hunting I wish you mother every thing she wishes herself, she deserves it after her appalling beginnings.
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59 mighty angela so you think I am nasty that is because I ask people to respect polititions, now thats nasty.
You suggest that I'm a marxist or at the very least a repressed human being, and your suggestion makes me nasty!
You suggest that I foam at the mouth when annoyed, you know me so well, thats nasty.
You imply that I should never have complained to the moderaters and that you would'nt and yet the facility is there to be used, I received a letter from the moderaters thanking me for pointing out this post which had been overlooked and said that this post definately broke the rules and should under no circumstances have been allowed to go past the moderaters, and I'm nasty.
You went on to deliberatly denigrate John Prescott in a very unladylike manner knowing full well that I would not agree with you, not that you had to please me but you intended your remarks to offend me. And I'm the nasty one.
You say that you would defend free speech even of those you hate, very noble probably to the death I guess but you did'nt quite go that far, there is an answer to me from Mikepko not to far away ask him about how free speech would have affected his life if they had exersized their right,to free speech if you dear lady were to find yourself in certain situations you would forget free speech and say what you were told to say, its easy to be brave when the consequences are of a minor nature. but I'm sure that on reflection you will realise how fatuous that remark is. the moderaters are there for a purpose, to stop inflamitory remarks and thats what they did.
You go on to say I enjoy berrating those that dont agree with me, of course I do if I can put them on the straight and narrow then there's nothing like a little berating to cheer things up but then Angela I guess I'm the only one on this blog doing any berating.
Finally of course these children are busy stabbing one and other because of a labour government, who else.
You would be surprised if I had the inclination to tell you just how far removed from political correctness I am.
it's strange that you and sceptic max came onto this blog like lions but you appear to be going out like lambs, Wonder why.
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Scepticmax@96
We need a tax on fuel but that should be partially ring fenced for alternative transport.
Cheap tax free fuel will mean more people drive bigger cars, more often, in bigger traffic jams in a country concreted over with road building. Meaning more pollution.
It will also mean that oil will start to run out meaning prices will go up. Then who do you blame?
follow the the example of NuLabourNuHopes favourite Television comedy star Mr Bean and drive a smaller car. Not obviously a Mini as the New Mini is massive.
Global warming is likely to cause more rain in this country. More evaporation into the atlantic air current. that gives us summer.
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People can't handle the freedom they have which is why this blog has 101 comments and counting while Nick's on holiday. This is the product of the clinging mind which can't stop trying to force things, or leave things alone. When the mind crashes that badly it's usually a good idea to take a break.
My main focus remains on trying to write the best comment I can and let any jibes just slide by. Getting caught up in argument and finger pointing just drags things down into failed state territory. That's a place I'd rather not be mentally or physically as it only leads to oblivion. Taking a break can help reassert better ways.
Nick's a star performer. He writes well and doesn't allow himself to lose the plot. I'm not a pro writer and have no need for the attention so shrug all that off. By taking a break I can dump some crap and relax and, hopefully, do better when Nick returns or, shock horror, find something else to do with my time. Whatever. It's no big deal.
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100 grandantidote
I'm glad the question of free speech has come up. Its somthing we are increasingly losing in this country. Ask the protestors against the visit of the Chinese leader. Ask the people whi tried to read out the names of the soldiers killed in Iraq in Parliament Square. And all those stopped from speaking freely at other times.
102 CEH
Glad to see you've emerged from your darkened room. Missed your conributions while I was away for the weekend
Happily this board allows us to say what we want, in the main. And we all have plenty to say, while not all of it is sensible in my opinion.
For my part, its fun reading the left wing rantings of some of the posters. And the undying support for GB. It just goes to show that the UK is in a worse state than I thought, and that was pretty bad!!!
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Re 103
I'm glad you think that this board allows people to say what whey want.
NR wrote saying he was going on holiday and the vast amount of what followed is absolute drivel. So many are using "free speech" to use this blog like a child's forum the would be better on Cbebies.
It would be a great start if everyone actually followed the theme of the blog, but that seems to difficult for the majority who only seem interested in dispersing their theories and views.
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I'm not too bugged about China. What they lose in one way they gain in another. Arguably, the West has too much freedom and that comes with its own price. The British are creative and expansive but their psychological root is in fear and desperation. Hence, corporate arrogance and consumption problems. The international, national, and personal levels are identical beasts. This is something worth reflecting on. Know one thing, know ten thousand things.
In a poem called "Through the Smoke Hole," Snyder tells the Indian story of "the world above this one." This world is a wigwam with a hole in the roof through which the smoke of the fire goes. There is a ladder that goes out through the roof, and through this hole the great heroes climb on their shining way to the world above. It is our good fortune, however, that a few make the journey in reverse, tumbling, backside first, through the hole, to rejoin us in this world and give us hints of what they know. Such a one was Coyote. And so, possibly, was Alan Watts.
-- Zen Effects - The Life of Alan Watts, by Monica Furlong.
The Christian tradition Gordon Brown comes from is decidedly less cool than Zen Buddhism but the Archbiship of Canterbury's Easter keynote on fear, and one of his own Bishops tumbling out of an aircraft in support of the British military is interesting. One supposes we're in for a bit of a ride under Gordon. It could even be fun. Golly.
So, yes. There's a lot of static in the air but I've caught myself breaking into a big grin while walking down the street when I remember Gordon's in charge. He's a Stephenson, a Brunel, and a Nelson all rolled into one. Britain needs less bullshit and contrariness and more, um, joyous industry. We have our wires crossed but with a little American style confidence and Oriental style teamwork we're good to go.
Can't wait for the PM's keynote on Monday.
Wah, hooh. Huh, huh, hooh.
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Charles_E_Hardwidge @105,
I really don't mind you talking up Gordon Brown. We're all entitled to our own delusions - in your case you seem to think that positivism can raise the dead.
I'm more worried about your repeated notion that we [in the West] have "too much freedom. (You also expressed this view in #102 "People can't handle the freedom they have").
Whenever people say that there is too much freedom they either seek to be - or anoint others to be - the ones to tell people what to do, how to live, what is or is not OK, Nanny knows best, etc. Even with the best of intentions it's a slippery slope.
Freedom is messy alright, but it's a damn sight better than any of the alternatives.
skynine @104
I'm so glad you took this opportunity to "disperse your theories and views"
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grandantidote @100,
I haven't forgotten you and your censorious, long-winded ramblings. Where you a founder member of Mary Whitehouse's organisation?
I believe it was originally called Clean Up National Television.
How apt.
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What is it about NuLabour that makes them such a bunch of intellectual snobs?
Big govenment does not provide the answers to problems. People do.
The psychological root of the English is not based on fear and desperation it is based on hard work, foresight, innovation, thrift, property, the effective rule of law and stability. The industrial revolution happened here first for these reasons.
The West has too much freedom? Those expressing these views should take a few months off in the gulag if they feel we're so well off. Firstly, this government has presided over the biggest single erosion of civil liberties in this country's history, scecond these liberties were fought and paid for by our forebears who gave their lives. it's a disgrace that NuLabour has wittled away freedoms for which people gave their lives.
Gordon Brown is Mr Bean, Frank Spencer and Captain Pugwash rolled into one. he is a figure without either credibility or authority. He hasn't the faintest understanding of the reason for the country he allegedly heads being where it is in the world today. How could a man call a conference of British heads of the oil industry together to solve the oil crisis when we aren't even self sufficient? The people he assembled can't even deliver what he wants. He can - cut the tax on fuel.
As for Gordon Brown's keynote speech coming up on Monday; let's hope for his sake and ours it goes better than his multiple failed relaunches post the non election. But I don't hold out any hope for that as he's a walking disaster zone.
He's a loser not a leader.
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To # 108 Robin JD
Good morning,
The sun is at last shining and it's so good to feel its warmth. The pleasure is compounded by reading Robin's posting, a delightful change from the repressive missiles demanding censorship and rigid obeyance to the regulations, created by petty tyrants.
I agree with the comments regarding Mr Brown, but I have one fear. If this surly depressive finds himself cornered, there is the terrible prospect of him calling a National Emergency, thus voiding the opportunity of a General Election.
It is pointless to look at the man and just mock his appearance and words. Bigger dictators have strode the world stage wearing funny clothes, doing comical walks and creating disasters, whilst the passive populations looked teh other way.
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I wonder if any of the left or centreist bloggers on here felt the same personal animosity toward John Major during the last years of his administration?
I had grave reservations about his competence and leadership abilities but I genuinely did not feel the personal hatred that some of the rabid right on here feel about Gordon Brown.
Major was a genuine hard working guy who probably was the living embodiment of "The Peter Principle". I don't recall his many opponents spewing the same level of poisonous bile that Brown's enemies re-gurgitate.
"Rose tinted specs" on my part?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#110 peteholly
Yes, you are wearing rose-tinted glasses!
You seem to use the expression"rabid right wingers" rather a lot, also "bile". Is this the result of a limited vocabulary or just a poor education?
I have NEVER voted for the tories, and found Major a rather insipid character, who we only now know wasted his energies in assignations with a lady in his cabinet. The only Conservative I admired, but was too young to vote for was Winston Churchill, who must be turning in his grave. With the exception of Boris Johnson, I think they are a lot of braying wimps.
Brown has earned the scorn, even hate of the British public, because he has betrayed the socialist values for which the Labour party is supposed to stand. A typical example of this bunch of parasites is the manner in which they tried to conceal the money they grab for "second homes". The only second homes they deserve are little cells with bars at the windows!
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Indeed mightyangela, the sun is shining, but let's not let it blind us to the delights of lampooning our political masters.
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#107 sceptic max. Nice to hear you have'nt forgotten me. and I'm quite sure that your not going to have a chance to forget me believe me. Your behaving like a criminal who has been caught doing wrong sentenced to three months and then tries to tell all and sundry that it was'nt me, its the guy who told on me. for Gods sake grow up you idiot you did wrong your post was withdrawn, deal with it. I have had two posts removed but did I mope around crying its not my fault, no I did'nt because I'm a man and I accepted the fact that I probably did go over the top, so do try to be a man if thats possible.
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#114 granantidote
You brag that you have had two posts removed, well, Sir, I have the world record for having posts removed on other boards!
Although I can not agree with any of your views, I still maintain freedom of speech, and regret I couldn't read your banned messages - maybe they were more illuminating than your printed ones. It really worries me that you seem proud that the Moderators wrote and thanked you for drawing their attention to a letter which mistakenly got through their net. I imagine the collaborators in World War II felt that way when Freedom Fighters or other 'enemies' of the Third Reich were reported and punished. You state that the Moderators are there for a reason, just because something exists doesn't give it validity, beyond "I exist, therefore I am". Because there are Moderators is no excuse for reporting fellow bloggers, it is childish and punitive. I said I wasn't going to write with reference to you again, but cannot resist this chance, on such a glorious day, to reactivate you. Yes, I am being nasty!
Grandantidote, get outside and look at
G-d's creations, the trees and flowers are so lovely now and the birds are singing their hearts out.
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#112 - I believe my poor education results in the fact that I know Edwina Currie was never actually a member of John Major's Cabinet.
Time and again the "rabid right" resort to personal attacks - they can't help it.
I (over) use the phrase because there are plenty of Conservatives who I admire and genuinely believe wish to carry out good public service in their roles. My local MP John Bercow would fit into this group comfortably for example. A decent, principled guy who works for all of his constituents.
That marks them out from the bitter, empty souls on here who believe that personal attack and constructive criticism are the same thing.
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I see Chuck Hogwash has been referred - do I presume his Zen Budhist powers of calm have deserted him?
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#109 Mighty Angela, one sentence.The sun is at last shining and its so good to feel its warmth. Thats the first thing that I have ever seen that you have written that indicates that somwhere deep inside there is someone that can think like a adult, I was beginning to think that I was exchanging views with a child. It did'nt take long though to return to form did it.All this guff about censorship and rigid obeyance of the rules, I suppose Mighty Brave Angela you will venture out on to the streets of britain today and drive your car or is it your bicycle up a one way street just like your hero and if you get pulled by a police officer, you'll say to him "listen mate me and sceptic max dont believe in rules ,so sod off" or will you say I'm sorry officer i did'nt see the sign. You dont have to embarress yourself by answering that, we all know exactly what you would do.So much for your Idea that we dont have to obey the rules, I could give you many examples of how both you and sceptic max obey the rules every day of your life, so cut out the misplaced bravado and try to become part of the real world or alternatively you could call your self Mighty Anarchist Angela and start a new party of your own.
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We should try to stick with the subject matter of the blog but in the case of this thread, Nick has left it pretty open.
Gordon Brown has stated recently that we should develop more nuclear power.
But the history of nuclear and politicians has not been at all good.
For starters, we were told an untruth back in the 1950's when the Government stated that nuclear power was being developed to provide electricity that would be 'so cheap it'll cost virtually nothing', when in fact, the real purpose was as a cover for nuclear weapons development.
As it turns out anyway, the world-wide resource of uranium is so small that nuclear fission is a dead-end.
I think that geothermal is much more promising, especially if coupled to exciting new development in nano-technology, which may allow immensely strong structures to be created.
The Government extracts vast sums of money from taxpayers and business.
Is it too much to ask that just some of this money is spend wisely on projects such as geothermal and nano technology or has it got to be absorbed by a mostly futile bureaucracy?
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Re: # 116 from peteholly
I humbly stand corrected regarding the delectable Edwina.
But, I really didn't know you were a rabid right winger, since according to you, only RRWs use personal insults to make their points.
#95 is a perfect example of your anger gushing out into personal insults. You accuse the blogger of #90 of having so much bile (again that word) that he has "poisoned his brain" and suffers from convulsions.
Maybe I am wrong, once again, and seeing as I am "rabid" too, I need a good dose of Bile Salts, providing I can get it down.
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At the Presidential press conference, George Bush addressed all journalists.
He said: We need to soot all Iraqi and Iranian insurgents and we also need to shoot all dentists, everywhere.
The balding BBC Political Editor seemed puzzled by such an announcement and raised his hand.
The President asked: 'Do you dare to have a question?'
'Yes', said the trembling wreck of a journalist.
'Go ahead', said the President.
'Why do you want to shoot all the dentists?' enquired the bag of nerves.
The President turned to Prime Minister Blair and said, 'See what I mean, Tony, they don't care about the Iraqi's or Iranians!'
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Such was the outflowing of sunshine and rainbows someone must've nearly had a heart attack in the same way books are kryptonite to chavs. Of course, this leaves us speculating as to who complained and why. Answers on a postcard.
And the world is awash in nuclear fuel. The main problem is old reactors that require reprocessing and storage. Newer reactors minimise this. All the waste stored at Sellafield is fuel by another name. Again, new reactors can use this.
A lack of confidence and sociability at national and international levels is capping or retarding investment in renewables. Looking forward, as foreign policy in Africa begins to pay off they could become net solar energy exporters.
Labour have been key architects of the largely unknown but highly successful strategy led development in Africa. This is taking time to pay off but results are flowing in. Labour are pushing a similar approach at home. Same deal, there.
I just think people are scared of being happy.
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#115 mighty Angela what a seriously strange person you are. I was not bragging that I had two posts removed I was merely trying to show that it can happen to any of us, as I say the moderators were probably right in removing them, I am afraid that we all get a little carried away in the heat of the moment and we have to be stopped from making unfair and inflamatory remarks from a position of safety, in front of your computer.
If you want to make unpleasant remarks against John Prescott or as you made rather childish remarks against Gordon Brown this morning thats fine, be my guest, and I and socialist bloggers will make unpleasant remarks against David Cameron And Gidion Osbourn. but the volume of vitriolic and extremely personel attacks made by you and the people who are your supporters are a bit further than most of us like to think is fair and legitimate comment. I'll give you a sample of the people you support on these blogs and those that support you, first dear old moderately mild mannered sceptic max he claims he's not a tory and yet we have to put up with his generally disgusting diatribe on a daily basis against Labour. next we have NLNH who claims not to be a tory and says that he supported the labour party for forty years, strange John Prescott, Tony Blair ,Gordon Brown were all members of that party when apparently he was supporting them,next Subedeithemorngol he has confessed that he hates everybody that votes and has never voted for anyone, but he still spends many hours on these blogs with more vitriol than most against labour and none against tories finaly Dutchy he hasadmitted not having a british passport even after living in this country for 54 years he constantly runs the labour party down and yet admits not having a vote, all these facts have been freely stated on these blogs by these charactors so I'm not revealing any secrets. Your remarks regarding the third reich are apart from being absurd in relation to our dispute are typicaly offensive to those unfortunates who died in those circumstances and to me but that wont trouble you or your spiteful following. I have just read your post to pete holly112 God lady you really should get out more to mention Boris Johnson in the same breath as Winston Churchill although Boris is a Tory, Winston would have chewed him up and spat him out. I see you claim not to be a Tory also, that makes a full set.
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Charles (122) New Labour's 'strategy led development in Africa'? As I understand it 'Africa' needs more than a strategy. That's why the Chinese are pumping bagfuls of money into the region. Our influence in 'Africa' is on the wane my friend, they can get their spondoolies elsewhere now.
JohnConstable(119), unfortunately the pessimist in me thinks much of this money will be spent on needless bureaucracy. Although there is an answer to our energy needs. How about using all that hot air from grandantidotes rantings to generate electricity. God, knows there's enough of the stuff to keep us self sufficient in fuel for some considerable time.
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Charles_E_Hardwidge @122,
You may be happy/surprised to hear that I too am a supporter of nuclear power.
It's a great shame that for decades, nuclear power has been the Left's Great Satan). (Well, after the US, capitalism, free trade, Israel, common sense, freedom, choice.....).
BTW, whoever I hope that whoever it was that caused your post to be censored contracts a nasty social disease. The thing I hate most of all is the curtailment of the freedom of speech. (Voltaire and all that...).
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#124 doctor gloom Iam glad that my rantings are annoying you, it makes up a little for the annoyance that I and my friends have to put up with from you and your unimaginative vitriolic cohorts that exude their bile from their grubby little hands on a daily basis, a little reasoned ranting is good for the soul why dont you try, reasoned being the operative word
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125 sceptic max although I agree with most of what you say here. but you still cant leave it alone can you. silly man.
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In my opinion, this thread has degenerated into personal abuse.
If the moderators allow such postings to continue to be published then I do not see much point in continuing to contribute.
So often we see this on web forums, as in 'real life', the few spoil it for the many.
The few gems are buried amongst so much 'spam' that it is simply not worth wading through it all.
Life really is too short.
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Grandantidote 126:
Well done, a solid 'reasoned' response. Oh, and by the way: you have friends???
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Re: Grandantidote #118
Just flew off on my broomstick to collect some shopping.
Now, you can see I am a woman of my word! I could have reported your posting to the Moderator for profanity and bad language. In these days of civil marriage, sodomy is obviously not a criminal offence, but to tell somebody to "sod off" is considered offensive. In your posting you suggested I would say that to a policeman. I could have complained to the Moderator if I was a "tell-tale-tit", but I didn't. By the way, I wouldn't use that word to anybody, to me the sod is what I walk on, from whence the grass grows.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The reality of these postings is that NuLabour is dead.
The tank is running on empty and the apologists have nothing to offer but platitudes and mission statements.
The bond market is now showing the way ahead with a collapse in the last month; money is getting expensive and the government will pay the price for its hubris. A very heavy price.
There is nothing they can do. We are entering the second phase of the credit crunch and it's going to be twice as bad as the first.
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#129 doctor gloom, Oh! you liked that, Yes I do. In answer to your question, Is that enough hot air for you, just make some more stupid remarks and I'll give you a reasoned argument and a little hot air but no spite, hate, or misinformed vitriolic remarks, In the same way as I usually do. Hot air or not you obviouly read them so you've got something to keep you warm.
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#131 Grandantidote
No, I will not report you even though you'd love me to. Perhaps I'm childish, at least I have a sense of fun. Better than having the geriatric grumps over every posting that mocks your hero, the dreadful Prescott. Obviously, he is your alter ego. Gobble up a lot of garbage, mutter even more garbage, chase the girls around their desks, and who knows you may achieve your dream.
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A good thing too, I'll need something to keep me warm as New Labour steers through this energy crisis.
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134mighty angela waiting for it to come up,it had better be good angela as I'm becoming bored with all this childish behaviour, report or not report its up to you it will be good for a laugh. I've just been reported on another blog but am I squealing like a stuck pig, no. as I say the moderaters are there to do their job, so I like you and every other blogger has to obey there rules or get off. To express myself in your vernicular I'll be a "cry baby" and go and think who I can blame .
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Mary Ann Sieghart has an amusing piece in today's The Times entitled Truth about the day that I called John Prescott thick".
Fans of the former deputy prime minister are advised to take their medication prior to reading it.
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124 mighty angela, yes its fun when you want it to be but if you dont want fun then the spiteful child comes out, you did'nt report because you did'nt want to make a fool of yourself but thats OK I understand.I am afraid that you have my protection of John Prescott totally wrong although I do admire that a working class lad can rise to the heights of deputy prime minister for ten years, but my problem and I am not going to repeat myself was the disingenuous remarks concerning bulimia. although I am a big and quite rotund man, I eat very little have little problem with posts that might offend me, as Margaret Thatcher once famously exclaimed "I'm beginning to enjoy this " after all it tends to keeps us oldies of the streets, I have to admit I have chased a few girls around the desk and in my day caught a few but that was long ago.
I acheived my dream long ago by build ing a number of rather beautiful yachts and sailed one over two oceans and several seas with only my wonderful wife to accompany me. you see we must not judge people by a few posts thats why I try to keep my language within bounds. So toddle of on your broomstick and have fun.
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Robin JD re:132
What is the solution? What can we do to prevent the oncoming apocalypse.
You never know Gordon Brown and Mervyn King might be reading this!
Or maybe David Cameron and George Osborne - I suspect they maybe open to one or two decent policy ideas.
Seriously though, what are the Tory solutions to the current economic issues the country is facing?
Let's see something constructive in response. Some policy initiatives please instead of the politics of personality.
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# 137 sceptic max the toryTimes of course.
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peteholly -
Cut government spending - which is not the same as cutting quality of service. There were plenty of centres of clinical excellence in the NHS before they tripled spending on managers and reviews.
Stop financing endless pointless reviews; take decisions and stick to them. Cut management consultants and spin doctors in government and public service.
Cut the Downing Street PR budget and the crazy list of 'advisors' If GB wants one he can pay for it out of his own pocket.
Put up taxes on consumption and cut taxes on income. People want to choose how they spend their money. Particulalry cut income tax to zero for the first £25,000.
Cut benefits or make people work for the council for their benefits.
Engage the private sector and oblige all comapnies to set aside additional money to sponsor school leavers and hgiher education after cutting corporation tax.
I could go on... you may be right thye'll start listening but I fear the instinct for big government is too strong.
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RobinJD at #141.
I agree with some of what you say.
The dependency on management consultants in Whitehall and the NHS is terrible. David Cameron, in one of his better critiques, called it government by powerpoint and he was right.
Not sure about raising taxes on consumption though - VAT already at 17.5% and everyone groaning about fuel duty.
On waste however I suspect that this will amount to cutting the jobs of nurses and doctors under a Tory Government.
I do recognise though that in the short term Government spending as a percentage of GDP is going to have to be reigned in. The economic environment is making this inevitable.
This is borne out in all the polls - Labour will recognise this or lose. Mondeo man needs a breather.
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When people get too caught up in themselves or the moment things tend to roll over the edge. Politics suffers from this in general which is why shifting focus or taking a break is a good idea. Nick does this quite well and it's something people can learn from. Taking a holiday or, at least, a break from ourselves keeps us sane.
The strategic approach to Africa has been quite useful. They have a lot of issues to get over but slightly more order and awareness has created some traction. As better ways become the dominant force something more reasonable will begin to take root.
Africa has suffered from the wrong sort and too little investment in the past. Like renewables it's a growth market and raised status would probably help immigration issues at home. China and Japan have a longer view and are keen to become players. Their investment in Africa and UN peacekeeping is strong and increasing.
The British tend to both buy into gee-whiz and drag their feet. They have no confidence or teamwork skills. That partly explains the top-down management consultant culture. Really, people need to start developing themselves. People can get a clue in a moment but the process is a lifetime endevour.
Suggested reading:
The Brand You, by Tom Peters.
We: The Ideal Customer Relationship, by Steve Yastrow.
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I have some observations to make on this blog.
It is a truth universally acknowledged that the more ignorant a person is, the more opinionated they tend to be, and likely to think they know better than anyone else (for confirmation reference all teenagers of your acquaintance). Who was it who said that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"?
I also heard recently something to the effect that: 'he who raises his voice first has lost the argument', and it seems to me that this blog contains contributions which exhibit not only a lot of raised voices, but a lot of opinions and information which appear to have been obtained from the screaming gutterpress.
Who said "the time to make you mind up about someone is never"? And the fact that I don't know is an example of my own ignorance, which is vast.
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141 peteholly
I can't help but agree with your comments.
I am currently re-reading Parkinson's Law, first published in 1958 and there is so much truth in it about how departments get bigger and bigger.
The basis is the
1 An official wants to multiply subordinates, not rivals
2 Officials make work for each other
In this way 'empires' are built but productivity doesn't improve. Sound familiar.
Even then, based on figures available, organisations increased by an averageof 5.89% between 1935 and 1954.
Take for example the Colonial Office - 1935 thay had 372 staff, but by 1954 when a lot of the Empire had gone, 1661.
This is certainly the case in both national and local government, and in quangos. Lots of unproductive staff who all have their own little empires and pass you and I from department to department, all very busy pushing paper that is of absolutely not use to anyone.
I recommend Parkinson'Law as a very good read.
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On another tack, my mother, who as I commented on previously came here as a refugee in 1947 doesn't like all of the eastern Europeans invading Kent, even though she is one herself!!! After all, she has been British since 1949.
Having lived under Communism (Stalin) and Fascism (Hitler) she feels suitably able to comment on close control of the population, and she certainly doesn't like what is currently happening in the UK at present. Go home then, I hear you say.
She has one really good idea on crime and criminals. Since it costs about £40,000 a year to keep our criminals in prison she suggests they be sent to Russia instead and we pay them £15,000 per prisoner per year.
The beauty of this is that in Russia they won't have all the comforts of a UK prison, bread and water for dinner, no TV, and on return there is absolutely no way they will want to go back. And we won't have to spend tax payers money on new prisons. We have health toursists.
I commented on their human rights, and she replied that criminals don't care about our human rights so why should we care about theirs.
This is a woman who has ahd a very hard life, thinks we in the UK are very soft and should grow up. In some ways I tend to agree with her.
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#146 mikepko
I agree 100% with your mother.
This proves that suffering doesn't always produce a 'saintly' forgiving character. A tough life makes a survivor face reality head on.
This is not the time or place to go into private details, suffice to say I too have had a life where often my very existence was in the balance, so I know the wickedness that exists.
I wish your mother was Home Secretary, it is a brilliant idea and you should try and bring it to the notice of your MP.
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mikepko @146,
Your mother is on to something: the idea of outsourcing convicted criminals is brilliant!
Perhaps it could be extended to long-term benefits claimants. Imagine the scene: Darren, Dwayne and Shazza are told that they can either work (cleaning motorway verges; picking fruit and veg; inner-city regeneration; etc. - there's plenty to be done) or get benefits - so long as they agree to be housed east of the Urals.
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# 144, theclaque
If I may I'd just like to add "The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know...."
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I've done some dumb things and been on the recieving end of some dumber things in my life. I think, I have a grip on this and some legitimacy when commenting on these issues. But that's neither here nor there. I'm not here to boast or trivialise anyone else's misfortunes.
Judging correct action and attitude isn't easy. Immaturities tend to get in the way. This creates a wheel of misery. This is quite simple to understand and why Buddhism considers love and learning to be key values. It's a gateway through which we can challenge and be challenged.
Zen Buddhism in particular focuses on the light and dark of existance as a path towards enlightenment. Here, the offender/victim/ role may find its parallel in the master/servant relationship. This is an personal affair and why the focus is on self development.
The Western tradition meets force with force. The Eastern tradition is to give way and route around damage. Both extremes of these opposites can lead to an equivalent level of damage. While one doesn't deny the effects of criminality or victimhood, comparing them to a shamanic journey may have some value.
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149 s_slatt
We are in total agreement, harmony reigns(!)
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Dear Points of View,
I am outraged but thankful of the BBC for putting forward Nick Pisani's Question on Question Time.
Nick is the man who has put the Time into Question Time and it is about time he was rewarded. So thank you.
The question put (duh!) was 'Does the Labour Party have a Leadership problem'.
Hah!
It was most enlightening to hear the 19 Conservatives on the panel give their response, including the Economist with no qualifications (on her or my subject).
As a life-long member of the Labour Party
I can assure 'the panel' that there is neither a problem or a vacancy, however, I was most amused to see that they (the panel)appeared clueless on all other subjects.
Ps. Could it be recorded that I, a non member of the Conservative Party, consider the current Leader of such (No.4?) to be a Pro-European in an Pro-European Party with a membership of Anti-Europeans.
I think this position to be intolerable and I wish their to be a 'Leadership problem' and further wish the 'vacancy' to be declared sonner, rather than later.
As non Conservative I find this deceit of the Tory membership to the General Public to be outrageous and contemptable
Can Nick put this point to David Miliband on next weeks outing?
Yours
Outraged of Stoke
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# 146 mikepkoThe last sentence of your post i agree with.
the rest of you mothers views are with respect arbhorrent to me, as you say she came as an immigrant to this country and was welcome and in particular by myself and like minded people, I would never suggest to her that because of her opinions that she should go home herself, I am delighted that she made her home here and I hope they've been happy years and hope she spends many more years here,what I dont understand that after living under both Hitler and Stalin whose very policy was to drive people away and or destroy them and they both certainly did destroy them didnt they,it was that policy and other similar policies that created the second world war and for many years the cold war, so I think perhaps you and your mum if that is both your opinions should have a rethink on close control of the population, It seems that maybe I am the only one but I welcome the immigrants into this country in fact I dont know how things like the NHS for an example could have survived without them and there are many other walks of life were they are most welcome.
Her idea on what to do with prisoners is also abhorant to me and I'm sure many others, the first point do you or mum think that Russia is so economically destitute that they need to build prisons in order to import prisoners from another country in order to earn cash?. You say" the beauty of this" there is not one grain of beauty in it it's an appalling suggestion to think that we would want to treat wrongdoers in this country to those conditions, I think most of us would agree that prisoners get too easy a time of it, and there should be a review of the way they are treated and more stringent rules should apply but sent to Russia and bread and water this is 2008 not the 1600,s,
you say that you commented to her on human rights, and your mum replied, according to you "prisoners dont care about human rights so why should we care about theirs".
The reason we care about theirs is because we need to bring them up to our way of thinking not let them drag us down to theirs. If we were to folow that line of thinking we would be on a downward spiral to hell.
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# 147 mighty angela,148 sceptic max, Well Both I can now understand why your so apposed to the labour party , if you think that the views put foward by Mikepko regarding his mothers views on immigrants and prisoners are brilliant and in Angelas case she should be home secretary really lets us know exactly what these two expect from a government, sceptic max wrote a day or two ago that he was going to vote tory, after this post I think the Tories would want to distance themselves from all three with great haste
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# 144 the claque, brilliant, you perhaps include me but I dont mind crticism, but keep these little gems coming.
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The big problem with prison is lack of sound leadership models and being left to rot. Arguably, the army can help provide this but that amount of investment isn't necessary. People mostly want to be respected and liked. I think, the Zen tradition of "chopping wood and carrying water", and the master/servant relationship is a good comment on that. The question is do you want to break people or build them up?
The Victorian dream of building prisons (and mental institutions) that rehabilitated and cared for people has been lost. Jonathan Miller did a good programme on that a few years ago. They've just become a dumping ground for the working class, immigrants, and mentally ill as cost cutting and social breakdown has arisen. However, as investment and society are put centre stage under Gordon Brown some green shoots in attitudes are emerging.
The earlier comment on Parkinson's Law is very timely. Too much policy clutter and hysterical attitudes have built up. People feel confused and pressured, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and Britain is sinking deeper and deeper into failed state territory as criminal acts abroad and national breakdown suggest. But it's not all bad news. The NHS is about to reach a historic milestone in waiting lists.
Where there's hope there's life, etcetera.
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Well Nick 157 comments (so far) on your out of office announcement. Not a bad reaction to quite a short piece. Hope you had a nice break.
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Grandantidote
How do you manage to write such long sentences without full stops or punctuation. It is rather like listening to a politician - at the end you wonder how it started.
Just a little addition about being welcomed into this country.
When I was four and living in one rented room we had to leave thye accomodation. My mother and I went to the housing department to try and find somewhere to live. She was told "We don't have houses for people like you." On leaving she said to the receptionist "I managed to avoid the gas oven in Germany. Now as I don't have anywhere to live I might as well gas myself and my son." The receptionist went white, ran into the person who had been so dismissive and, I imagine, told her what my mother had said, and immediately a prefab became available. We moved in a week later. It was filthy but within a a few days, it was spotless, my mother and father dug the garden, got some chickens and planted vegetables. By the summer we were almost self sufficient with my mother baking her own bread, etc.
I talk to her about it sometimes and she has only two comments "In Germany that's the way they do things" and "when you are hungry you will do anything to stay alive."
Unfortunately in this country we have the Social Services. Originally set up for the very poorest who slipped through the net it is today a way for life for millions who don't want to work. I know people who complain that they only have one car and the children don't have a TV in their bedroom. Suggest they get a job and they laugh at you as they get more from the government.
This is not the way things should be. Labour have made life so cushy for for the workshy, prisoners, and lazy that the whole county is suffering as they take up so much of GDP.
End of rant.
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gandantidote @154,
As usual, you did not pay attention. I did not in any way support mikepko's mother's views on immigrants.
For the record, I think that most recent immigrants are well-educated, decent, hard-working individuals - and collectively, a great benefit to the British economy.
If Darren, Dwayne and Shazza (@148) were willing to work for a living, there would, however, be less economic need for these immigrants.
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150 mikepko, fair comment I suppose but you do seem to understand what I am saying.
I am afraid low on education but high on common sense and fairly good on intelligence , whereas I read on here every day posts that have excellent punctuation but very little common sense or interllect. So I guess its up to you which you prefer to read.
The advantage that I have generaly over those that criticise my puntuation is that I have many strings to my bow.for an example of one of my skills read 138 to angela last paragraph' Now to build a boat in the days when they were built of wood thats my time you had to be first and foremost able to read a drawing and follow it, then you have to have the woodworking skills of a boatbuilder with timber plus having a knowledge of different types of timber and metal fastenings and their application. Once you've reached that stage you have to become a cabinet maker,then a plumber then a mechanic and sometimes a metal fabricater, and electrician,
once you have reached that stage you then become a mast builder and rigger, the sailmaker does the rest.I have built in steel and ferro cement, both quite different skills,these are just some of the things I have wasted my time on when I could have been studying punctuation.
Have you any other skills other than immaculate puntuation?
With regard to your mother and her experience when you were young , it happened to a lot of people, that does'nt make it right it happened to my father in law who came from Poland and he while in digs built his own house and three acre garden, property was very cheap the he lived there untill he died. my father in law made the same remarks about thats the way we do things. thats what many of them are doing today that your mother seems to object too. If I may be allowed to correct you, getting three million back to work that were sat on their backsides under the Tories
could hardly be described as making life cushy for the workshy. Sorry if Ive bored you, I have'nt anything better to do so your it.
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# 159sceptic max , splitting hairs sceptic your post suggested that mikepko's mother'opinions were brilliant at no point did you attempt to seperate the two issues.
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Charles_E_Hardwidge @156,
Parkinson's Law is helpful, but incomplete.
This governments aptly demonstrates the truth of the Peter Principle ("In a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence") with one notorious G. Brown being a prime example.
As for "The Victorian dream of building prisons (and mental institutions) that rehabilitated and cared for people has been lost." - very true. Perhaps it was lost in the rush to give convicts light sentences, colour televisions, telephones, condoms and access to illegal drugs among other 'rights'.
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Essential reading for all bloggers is the attached article by ex Blair speech writer, Phil Collins. Now sacked as James Purnell's speech writer for this bold expose of the slow, public and painful death of New Labour. Bankrupt politically and financially, he argues the New Labour machine needs to 'Liberalise or die'.
How apposite.
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=10177
I particularly enjoyed the Ed Balls devised 'National play strategy' for children. Bumptiousness at its finest.
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grandantidote @161 -
You really must pay attention. My post began: "Your mother is on to something: the idea of outsourcing convicted criminals is brilliant!"
Note the colon (those two vertical dots).
At no point did I mention immigration.
Do try harder.
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grandantidote
I'm not sure what you are the antidote to, but if you could put line spaces in your posts it would help me read and understand them.
My mother's comment on eastern Europeans was meant to be irony. Her main complaint is that her Council Tax rises and services fall because the government refuse to accept that councils need extra money because of the immigrants.
Regarding the £3million back to work, that would have happened anyway in my opinion. Labour inherited a very sound economy. I can't bring myself to call them New Labour. As recently proven they are and always have been "tax and waste".
Your comment about your father in law tends to prove my point. Older people who have known hardship work damned hard to make sure they don't experience it again. In this country, and increasingly under Labour, people are molliecoddled by GB et al.
People today want everything but don't want to work for it. Credit is the answer to everything, and of course, they get into financial trouble then want bailing out.
Put it down to education. I firmly believe that everyone should leave school understanding something about personal finance, and understand compound interest which is the cause of many problems.
So back to Labour. Over my lifetime (56 years) Labour has been responsible for most of the screwy ideas on how to teach children, with the result that 20% are illiterate and innumerate at age 11, even after 11 years of Labour.
I could go on and on, and we will never agree. All I can say is success for individuals (of whatever kind, being a captain of industry or building a boat) and the nation as a whole depend on learning the basics, applying them, continuing to learn and hard work. Only in this way can we pay the taxes to improve services to THE WHOLE POPULATION, something GB doesn't seem to understand.
People don't mind paying taxes if they are used correctly. Its when you work 60 hours a week, wake up worrying at night, spend weekend on your computer instead of with you family, and then see you taxes wasted by politicians who pay for their pet projects as if it is their own money they are spending, not yours or mine.
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# 159 sceptic max sorry I overlooked the fact that even if you did'nt agree with her views on immigrants, you certainly did agree with her on the way that prisoners should be treated . Forget the immigrants hers angela's and your idea of the way we treat prisoners is abhorrent to me and I imagine to many others including your chosen tory party,
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Dear moderators, can I apply for one of your jobs. You must be laughing your heads off just like me. Such entertainment every day.
As I often say "If I didn't laugh I'd cry."
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164 sceptic max yes they are nice little dots arent they, no you did'nt mention immigration and that was the trouble old chap you praised the one theory but showed no distaste for what was the most offensive proposed idea. Prisoners.
as for your colon read 160 if you've a mind to.
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grandantidote
First my mother worked as a nurse and had lots of friends from all over the world as colleagues.
Second, have you ever worked in a prison? I have in an open prison. Even the inmates laugh about the comforts they have.
For many it is more comfortable than home. They can get booze and drugs at will, they have lots of mates, everyone has a TV, the food is ok, lots of activities, golf, cricket, rugby, soccer, woodwork shops, art classes, etc.
And of course they go out much more knowlegeable than when they went in.
Not much to prepare them for the outside however, so most told me that next time they would be more careful and not get caught.
Following on from my previous post did you know that 50% of inmates fail their literacy and numeracy tests. If that isn't a pointer in the direction of our education system then I don't know what is.
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Is it true what I have just heard, a YouGov poll puts the Conservative 24% ahead of Labour. Conservatives 47%, Labour 23%, Liberals 18%.
Watch out Labour, the Liberals might push you into thirs place.
Of course this is just the media having a go at poor Gordon.
He has got to go. The question is when?
Perhaps we could open a book on possible timescales!!!
When do you think C_E_H and grandantidote?
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165 mikepko Irony the excuse for many things, your continued criticism of my post only shows your failings not mine my friend. You obviously find no trouble in understanding them otherwise I would'nt recieve such prompt replies,
regarding the three million jobs which of course would have happened anyway, well why had'nt it started to happen employment was still falling when Labour came to power. so back to labour over my 77 years the failings in schools have been under Tories not labour, speak to a child today of twelve not a hoodie that Dave likes so much and you will find that compared to you at the same age they will jump over your head unless you were a very bright child, I can remember when Labour first got into power Tony Blair announced that every child would have the use off and be able to use a computer before the left school, the Tories laughed at him and shouted jibes accross the house but he was true to his word, that and many other things but I wont strain your mind by writing to much being as you find it so dificult to follow my posts,
I agree thatwe will never agree but TB and GBs idea when they got into power was that it was better for a man/woman to be in work and contributing to the country than it was for the country to be paying for them to be sat at home,
You make life seem awfully hard 60 hours a week sitting at your computer every weekend who are you trying to kid their screaming for their hours to be cut from 35 hours and they want more holidays, ask your mother what hours they used to work and what holidays they could afford in Blackpool or Brighten not Spain south of France and trips to NewYork,the've never had it so good and they need to wake up to it. or if the Tories get in their going to lose it. As for your continuing criticism of my punctuation I wish that I had all your skills its been my life long dream to have perfect punctuation like you, I would have exchanged all my skills to be clever like you
I envy you so much. what was it you said you do, again.
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grandantidote
"TB and GBs idea when they got into power was that it was better for a man/woman to be in work and contributing to the country than it was for the country to be paying for them to be sat at home,"
So what went wrong?
As for me, I never had any holidays, just roamed the streets and fields with my friends. No money. Played football in the winter and cricket in the summer on any patch of ground available. Helped my mother and father in the garden.
The one thing I am very proud of is that our family never took benefits/dole instead of working. They would have been too ashamed.
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169 mikepkoi had intended to finish for today butI wrote 153" I think most of us agree that prisoners get to easy a time of it and there should be a review of the way they are treated and more stringent rules should apply". No I have never worked inside a prison or been an inmate of one but as you say it was a open prison which is for minor offences I understand.
Going to your last paragraph most of those inmates were educated under the tory system but maybe I'm wrong if it was under the Tories they would have left prison with honours degree's
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grandantidote
Oh, you are a dyed in the wool socialist, brought up in smoke filled rooms with beer and sandwiches, I shouldn't wonder.
No, the prisoners weren't in for minor offences. People have completely the wrong idea about Open prisons.
We had murderers, paedophiles, rapists, GBH, drug dealers, and a few solicitors and accountants. Many were lifers who had committed horendous crimes and would never get out of prison, not that they wanted too!!!!
Regarding education while some would have been at school during Conservative governments you have to remember that many of the screwy education ideas were introduced in the 60s and 70 under Labour.
Anyway, while you criticise the Conservatives, I wouldn't want to go back to the 70s with 25% inflation, strikes everywhere, no control anywhere. And in some ways its got worse.
Have a good weekend reading the Guardian. Financial Times for me, it has the best standard of writing and the best punctuation!!!!
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#172 mikepko, so what went wrong, three million people went back to work, thats what went wrong,Your discription of your early life is almost identical to my own, never had a holiday until I was about twentyfive. As for your family being too ashamed and you being proud of that, well I'm stunned thats the reason many people are struggling today because their too proud to claim what their entitled to, with respect thats not clever its stupid thats where some of the money your moaning about paying is going, In my book if you dont claim what your entitled to then thats your silly fault,as you like to say its your money their giving you not theirs, its no good blaming the government what ever colour they are,If your parents never took benifits or dole then they obviously did'nt need to or they would have starved, My father was the same he had a small business and kept it going for seventeen years after getting severe diabetes struggling and living on peanuts until eventually he had to claim they were amazed that he had not claimed before, three months after recieving his first cheque he died aged 64, pride or shame didnt help him, nobody said at his funeral he was a good bloke he was to ashamed to claim or go on the dole.
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#175 Grandantidote
I don't believe that that was quite what Mikepko was trying to say (not wanting to put words in your mouth of course Mikepko!).
Obviously if you are too ill to work there should be no shame in claiming what you are entitled to, but for people who are fully able to work, and yet don't, that I find shameful.
There is always work out there if you're willing to do it, you may have to move to a new area, you may have to do something you find demeaning/disgusting, but these jobs do exist.
I would always rather do one of these jobs, and always have done these jobs when it came down to it, rather than living off handouts, created off the backs of other people's hard work, which is what I believe Mikepko's point was.
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GA
Perhaps we should set up our own blog. Everyone else is obviously transfixed by our postings!!!!
Yes, we have lots in common.
My mother and father took absolutely any job going when times were tough. Hop and fruit picking in the summer for my mother (spent many summer holidays in the hop gardens) - British people wouldn't do that today. To be on the dole was beyond the pale, even where we lived on a council estate.
When my father died my mother worked as an auxiliary nurse.
But this upbringing has never made me lean towards Labour. I have always believed that you should learn and work, and that you should be able to keep the fruits of your labours, not give them to politicians who will waste them. Labour have been much too guilty ofwaste since 1964.
This time was supposed to be different but its has just been hidden a bit better than usual with PFI and other off balance sheet items.
GB has always known what he was doing. Like at least 47% of the population I know that his stealth taxes have hit not only the well off but the poor. And now he has been found out and will suffer the price of deceiving the public. There is no way back - "once bitten, twice shy."
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174 mikepko well I have to tell you as I told someone on a blog the other day how wrong can you be my great grandfather and great grandmother were friends and supporters of Benjamin Disraeli the founder of the conservative party my grand parents were farmers who suported the tory party my mother and father supported the tory party, I up until the arival of Mrs T was a Tory supporter, mother and father very rarely drank did'nt smoke and made excellent sandwiches great grand parents on my mothers side he was a captain in the salvation army and his wife was a member as well, so you see the picture you have in your mind of me could'nt be further from the truth.
regards your prisoners I guess that next to paedophiles solicitors and accountants were the worst criminals.
Now you want to dive back to the seventies not tonight my friend.
Now your being modest the Guardian and Financial Times the best puctuation, never!
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I would agree that social and economic liberals have had too much influence. The current Labour policy of raising discipline and social skills of school children is having a noticably positive effect on performance.
Children, parents, and teachers have been part of the problem but things are improveing. Arguing and finger pointing is a British disease. Really, it's better just to accept the result and move on.
The battle between left and right, wastefulness and greed, toffs and peons is just dualism. Nothing happens without positive agreement. Unless Britain gets over this mediocrity will continue.
The polls are wrong because they're measuring media spin. They're a partial truth being represented as a whole truth. They will adjust in their own time because they're not sustainable.
The government has made a few policy and presentation errors. Poor leadership at the top, and in the media and community has created the wrong sort of attention bubble. This will burst as they all do.
The best thing the government could do is pull some policy kung-fu and step around it. This requires a certain amount of clue and detachment. Dropping habit and reactivity can help this process.
(If anyone wants to see it in action, note the chest beating and performing to the gallery in these blog comments. It's the same game but on a smaller scale.)
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176 s slatt I think that mikepko understand one and other quite well but your welcome to join in if you wish but you will have accept any flack that comes your way, he's the one with the excellent punctuation by the way.
I would be interested though to know when was the last time you moved away from home to take up a demeaning and disgusting job, maybe you have maybe not but talk is cheap my friend as you can see on these blogs.
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177 mikepko yes similar in many ways but I went the right way or perhaps I should say left wayand you went the wrong way or should I say right.
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179 CEH good for you Charles your like the school teacher keeping an eye on the naughty children and keeping a sense of propriety.
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Oh, dear. One struggles to decide whether to eschew any ambitions like David Miliband or melt away like Jack Straw. This is Nick's blog and I wouldn't wish to usurp Nick as the more self-affacing members of the government wouldn't put themselves above the Prime Minister. I am merely a puddle brokenly reflecting the glorious light from Dear Leader. Pay no attention to me.
More seriously, the big challenge for the Prime Minister is to help people discover their inner value and the value of people in society. The media have overcooked the Prime Minister's ambitions and drive to develop success because they can't see beyond mere competition. This perspective colours their view.
The Dao master succeeds not because of ambition or greed but because they develop from the inside out. Working within their limits of skill and attentiveness, they build themselves and communities slowly. The goal is to execute well not win for the sake of winning, and flow within the success that arises.
"He who shows himself is not conspicuous".
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Good morning ladies and gentlemen
"The big challenge for the PM is to help people discover their inner value and the value of people in society."
A good aim but I don't believe you do it be being prescriptive and acting like big brother . People need to discover these
thing for themselves, not be told what to do, or they will rebel.
The problem with GB is that he is trying to form people in his own image. I though that this was God's purpose.
To make any real change we really have to go back to basics. All GB does is tinker round the edges making life very complicated for everyone. In reality life is very simple and its politicians that make it difficult.
Let me give you an example
Say the Liberals come up with a good idea.
The Conservatives say thats really good, but we must make it ours so it becomes a bit more complicated.
Then Labour, true to form, steal the idea and put it out as policy. Do they keep it simple. No. They attache all complications they are famous for. To gain access we the public have to fill in a 40 page form only to be told that it doesn't apply.
This is what happened with the 10% tax change. All Labour had to do was say "we made a mistake. We will return to the status quo for a year and come back with better thought out proposals." Could they do that. No they are politicians.
Although I vote for the Conservatives it is because they give me more freedom.
Personally I think Socialism and even Communism are good in theory. Its the practice that goes against human nature, and you can't legislate against human nature and win!!!
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# 184 mikepko, Good morning, the sun has got his hat on here.
Lets see what we have for today. You say that GB is trying to form people in his own image, well give him a chance he's only been at it for a year or so, whereas Gods been at it forever and apparently he's had no success.
Why is it when the Tories or the liberals adopt or agree to accept a labour policy thats fine but if labour thinks that a policy by either of these two parties is quite a good idea but alter it to suit what labour thinks makes it a little better, It becomes stealing?
I have to agree totally with you over the 10p tax change, a cats a**e of a mess,and one thats cost them dearly.
Conservative have given you freedom, yes they sure gave freedom to the miners and the steelworkers and the motor industrie they gave them as much time as they wanted or perhaps I should say not wanted, they freed the power industries Elc, Gas, North sea oil, their the people who are milking us dry today I could go on but on a slightly lighter note they freed the milkman from delivering milk to the schools for the kids and they made the museum free to charge us to go inside,
Socialism and communism are two different things although the Tories have been trying to frighten voters for many years that one is connected to the other, in the twenties or was it the thirties that the Tory press made a campaign adainst Labour stating quite catagorically that the socialist movement was funded by the Russion Communist party. I'm sure there's some historians out there that will tell me if I'm wrong but perhaps not if I'm right.
There thats set the cat amongst the pigeons.
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I just wanted to register my delight at 20 (which seems to have been removed so I can't read it) and 21 describing my opinions as "muddled, air-headed and frothy" They were only opinions which was my point. There is too much opinion canvassed as fact in the media at the moment. I was hoping to point this out and from the reaction seem to have done so with success. I also wanted to say how much I have enjoyed reading the more recent debates on this blog which indicate political allegiences and ideas based on personal experience. I too have taken on extra work when times were hard to the extent that I was sometimes working without a break for weeks on end so (177) people do still do that today... it's just that they are too busy to have a political voice!
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I've just read about Tony Blair's new mission to bring peace and love to the world. What a guilt trip! The man is ridiculous.
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Ring ring!
Hello Gary, its me, Gordon!
It's 04:30am, Gordon!Said I.
I know, I thought I'd start early.
Help! Said my leader.
How? said I
I need people to love me more, said him.
Try not phoning before 09:00 and you'll get at least one person who loves you, says me.
Should I privatise the BBC, It's them that's doing me?
NO! Said I.
Invade Iran?
NO! said I.
What then, is all lost? said my leige.
No it isn't. Promote Harriet into the number 2 slot and ignore flack. Send her out as champion of the people to harness ill feeling and act upon it. Confiscate all abnormal and deceitful profits and charge similar on account. We need to show that Conservatives have speculated in oil and it is they who have created hardship, not us.Question the sudden rise in food and question and act upon abnormal profit. The Bank of England is scrutinised by whom, the press? shadow it and the MPC. Show that governments and the people are as one and are working together. Fight for what is right and expose what is wrong. The public, at the moment, see the two as the same. Make a difference.
Do you want to be No2, Gary? says the greatfull leader.
There's time yet, Gordon, says me.
Can I call you tomorrow same time for more excellent advice, Gary? says he pleadingly.
No.
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170 mikepko Sorry I overlooked your yougov poll question, Well Mike on the face of it it does'nt look good for Labour does it, not sour grapes but I dont rate polls to highly, it all depends where they ask the question and to whom. there are all sorts of polls for all sorts of things but as I say I'm in my seventies and have a number of friends the same age and yet as we were dicussing recently none of us have ever been requested to answer any questions in a poll, we are a mixture of differing parties so we cant claim they were selecting any of us, or not but if you think about it I'm talking about 5 or 6 hundred years between us and not a whisper, have you ever been asked?
Any way if my memory serves me right the tories were in an even worse position and yet John Major still won the election these polsters earn a nice bit of cash for sitting at a phone all day you could teach a monkey to do it.
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#186 new tactic, I like your style lad in particular the bit about fact and fiction in the media, you know the old Media adage
" dont let the truth get in the way of a good story".
yes I'm sure there are people today that work occasionally long hours in order to gain a bit of cash but people used to have to work those same hours every day to survive not too long ago, thats not to demean your efforts, if you need more money then go out and earn it and thats what you did so good on you.
What does annoy me is when I see young people on the TV complaining about having to work a thirty five hour week and that they want more holidays,.
When I was bringing up my family I used to work on a regular basis 72 hours a week forty eight basic the rest overtime and would work through my holidays to get a bit of extra cash for my wife to take the children out on day trips,
But thats days gone bye, workers today need to thank the unions for the easy life they get today, the employers would never of offered these conditions thats for sure.
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# 130 miighty angela or was it sceptic max, I see that one of you forgot all your protestations of free speech, I told you it was all a bluff, so you got my post 131 removed well thats OK as I say its up to the moderaters and if you bring it to their attention then they will remove it unlike you and your sqealing mate sceptic I can accept that, particularly as I know that you got the message before it was removed. so no more talk of free speech from you two please.It makes me feel quite queazy. By the way you seemed to think I was bragging when I told you that I had two posts removed, which I was not. [one since replaced.] You then went on to tell me 115 That you hold the World record for having posts removed on other boards. now is that stupidity or your love of free speech that your boasting about.
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#191 grandantidote
I wrote I am not responding to your postings. I've stopped using this blog because it has become a psychiatrist's couch for the hangups of egocentrical would-be writers who insult each other. No serious writing takes place now, just personal details which should not be mentioned.
I repeat, on my honour, that I did not report you to a moderator.
My having so many posts being removed is perhaps due to 10% love of free speech and 90% from my stupidity in wasting my time responding to equally foolish people.
Grandantidote, "Carry on Blogging" but count me out. You win!
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#192mighty angela sorry to lose you. I wont make any disparaging remarks, I just wish you luck and accept your word regarding moderator.
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Letting go is generally a good start. Clinging to ideas and attitudes just creates a mountain of ego. By letting go the mountain disappears and allows the mind to see what's really there.
Nick writes well and knows when to take a break. By being less obsessive and clingy we can improve how we present things and walk away when something bugs us too much. Letting go is key to that.
One almost wishes Dear Leader would bring back the 3 day week. Some people would moan but unless people enjoy their work it's a misery. Who knows, we might learn to live and get along more.
Wow.
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grandantidote @191 - I consider all censorship abhorrent - so count me out.
Besides, censoring you would be counter-productive: your ramblings provide enough rope with which to hang yourself.
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Quick comment to lighten the mood.
During last weeks question time did anyone else notice hazel blears doing a very very good impression of professor Dolores Umbridge from the 4th harry potter movie
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#195 sceptic max i would have been happy to accept your word as I did mighty angela's but you cant leave it alone so with your unnecessary bitching and its obvious you've still got something stuck in your craw so you end up for all your fine words being suspect number one.
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Moderator (and Nick)
Please can we moderate out all these self-serving and off the point ramblings (most of the above). Do we really need nearly 200 comments on Nick posting an "I'm on leave" message?
As I have said once before, this is supposed to be Nick's blog and the point is surely to comment on what he posts, not prove how clever we all are and / or score political points.
You lot, if you want to slag each other off in public start up your own blog. The the rest of us can concentrate on Nick's analysis and make sensible comments on that, commenting on each other's posts only to add relevant information or correct factual inaccuracies.
If not I for one will stop bothering to read the comments.
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sceptic max, I just want to add a little adendum to 197 you see Max my ramblings amuse me and they annoy you and that helps to make my life more enjoyable, rubbing people like up the wrong way is a delight, so keep spouting the bile and I'll keep rambling.
You'll have to learn to live with it old chap.
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sceptic max, I just want to add a little adendum to 197 you see Max my ramblings amuse me and they annoy you and that helps to make my life more enjoyable, rubbing people like you up the wrong way is a delight, so keep spouting the bile and I'll keep rambling.
You'll have to learn to live with it old chap.
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Evening all
Spent a lovely morning in Stroud, Gloucestershire, where we have one of the best farmers markets in the UK.
To please, grandantidote, people of all "classes", ages and political persuasions Friday and Saturday. In fact, on a sunn Summer's day its as close as you'll get to France and very friendly.
Stroud has a good Labour MP, hard working and looked up to by many as he votes against the government often. Name of David Drew. He is, I think, more like an independent MP and as they all should be. The party whip should in my opinion be abolished.
So will he be MP in two years time. Not likely. He has only a majority of about 500 but his problem is that he is tarred with the GB brush.
Stroud is a very Green place. People help one another, everyone seems to know one another, and sunshine and calm appears to reign. I wouldn't swop it for London - ever.
Its the England I remember as a boy, long may it last.
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# 198 badgercourage .While Nicks away the bloggers will play what else are we going to do, twiddle our thumbs. Im sure that a few of us have enjoyed having a go at one another, it has'nt hurt anybody, so why not join in until Nick gets back or dont read the blogs, I am sure no one will force you. stand by now for all those that dont agree with me, fun is'nt it?
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Sad I may be, but for want of anything better to do I counted up the first 202 responses to this post. The result is listed below (including rejected comments) without any conclusions on my part. For the pedants amongst us the numbers add up to 200 so I have missed a couple out somewhere, sorry.
grandantidote 52
mikepko 17
badgercourage 1
Katanmochi 1
ScepticMax 21
Charles_E_Hawridge14
mightyangela 14
GaryElsby 6
Poprishchin 1
newtactic 1
s_slatt 2
RobinJD 6
DustinThyme 1
theclaque 2
peteholly 7
doctor-gloom 6
JohnConstable 12
skynine 2
dhwilkinson 7
terryfow 1
Pendragon57uk 1
NotAnotherForm 1
solpugid 4
jabber-jabber 1
osian 1
AEMiller_Croydon 1
NuLabourNoHope 3
jacook_uk 1
oldbutnofool 1
megapoliticaljunkie 2
marimonster 1
newtactic 1
getridofgordonnow 1
geofftheref 1
Red Lenin 1
jonathon_cook 1
Stormontspy 1
Eatonrifle 2
Only jocking 1
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Well, a few people have been a bit self-indulgent, whether it's venting steam about the government, winding people up, or getting sucked into squabbles. Mostly, I'd rather things were more like the old days where folks just made a substantive comment then stepped back. It forces people to get it right first time and cuts back on the noise. I tend just to skim stuff if there's more than about 50 comments and have been thinking about dumping Nick's blog from my RSS feed if something more sane doesn't return.
Look, Nick's THE POLITICAL EDITOR of the BBC and writes good stuff. Being able to put a point of view that can and has been picked up by other outlets is pretty nifty but that value is diminished if it just turns into a scrum. Some acknowledgement and social interaction is nice as it was a bit dry before but I can't honestly say I paid much attention to the 200+ comment topics or remember anything of what was said. Life is short and time is money.
Carrying grudges from reading a newspaper to a comments section, then those grudges onto someone else, then today over to tomorrow just builds up a mountain of funk that runs the risk of becoming permanent. People won't be told and moderation seem to have some "freedom of speech" thing going so I don't know what's going to happen. I just know there's a limit and if it carries on I'll find something else to do with my time.
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# 203 Dustin thyme just had a look at your list and made a few checks myself, not guaranteed but I made 88 posts opposing labour against approx 70 supporting Labour out of my fifty two I had to spend quite some time fending of ridiculous remarks regarding the moderater and myself, there are a number of neutral posts,that make up the number. Many of my posts were in a lighthearted vein. If a post is in my eyes being unfair to the labour party then if no one else replies then I will , it is mostly a futile exercise as during these posts it has been revealed that the most vociverous labour haters either dont vote or are not entitled to vote,or dont know who to vote for. any way sweet dreams you gave me something boring to do before I turn in.
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grandantidote, people may attack the Labour party or wind you up on a personal level but replying can just pour petrol on the flames and be counter productive. Some people are probably angry and venting on a public platform for the first time in their lives. Others may just be looking for a thrill. If you write something of substance and let the more obvious junk roll by it adds more value and doesn't suck you into a race to the bottom.
Writing 1000 word essays and getting involved in rolling arguments probably isn't the best thing in blog comments. Starting your own blog or joining a forum is better for that. You've got plenty to say and I like a bit of social interaction. It's a nice antidote to anorak syndrome. If you refocus and let the noise slide by, and don't treat this as a sprint but more of a marathon, what you do have to say would stand out more and be less easily dismissed.
I think, it's cool people do have things to say but lack of leadership or communication experience can undermine the output. Some people are naturally good while others have to learn but doing the best we can instead of emulating the worst retreads in politics and the media can set a better example of purpose and solidarity. It's better for us and may help raise morale in both this online community and the nation.
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I agree with everybody.
There are some dangerous people out there and in here who can break a land speed record in replying to nonsense.
I think Gordon should bring in a keyboard tax which could reduce the amount of traffic in congestion zones. introducing a alcohol limit and banning alcohol whilst using a keyboard (or mobile) could be the answer.
Is Nick Robinson an alien?
We've already proved that Jon Craig is.
I've noticed that when he presents stories which are not 'Labour friendly'-to put it mildly-his little finger on his left hand is straight and does not bend.
See for yourself, if you don't believe me.
When pro (ish) Conservative reporting is made, the finger bends.
Bet you what you like that UFO sightings will be made soon over BBC house and a frightening looking REPORTER will be spotted by a crazed Scientist and his daughter! 'Its eating everything in its path!
So yes, I believe that the blogsphere is a crazy place with crazies making spurious unsubstantiated comments and they should be taxed off the air.
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Gary, from F.E.(thinking cap on time)!!!!..............
try and bring P. of ancient kingdom and CA onto this site. Strong support there for the party.
Having listened to the trash on the usual channel this morning they are wasting their time on there.
Just being used as whipping boys by a cartload of people who have turned toxic. My prophesy come true Tory talking to Tory only.
Not healthy for democracy.
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207
"So yes, I believe that the blogsphere is a crazy place with crazies making spurious unsubstantiated comments and they should be taxed off the air."
So New Labour... If it moves tax it, If you can't tax it , legislate against it. Thats why New Labour are in such a mess.
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Seems to me that all that's really happened to Nu Labour is what seems to happen, historically, to all parties. First four years they follow, somewhat, their election promises, second four years, they manage some more of their agenda, after that they start to stagnate and this is the result. It happened to the Conservative government before this one too.
So really Nu Labour have stagnated and turned into political mosquitoes, they whine and you know they'll bite, just not sure when.
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#206 c hardwidge, Once again you bring a little sense to these blogs teacher, I am afraid that some of us do get carried away, mostly, I guess me.When you have all these morons on posts whose soul purpose is to vilify men or women who have in many cases dedicated their lives to politics in the hope that they can make life better for all, this is not the exclusive realm of the Labour party but all parties, unfortuntely there exist within some of these parties some MPs who have the same moronic tendencies and are unable to hold a reasonable conversation with each other with out the use of rather child like name calling, this of course leads one to believe that they do this because they are bereft of any real argument and have to name call in the hope that someone will imagine that name calling means clever. Maybe sometimes it can be considered clever but only once or twice but on these blogs it has become repetative and not constructive but I guess in a way its a great leveller as it helps us to seperate the thinker from the morons.
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#209
No, Labour isn't in a mess because Gordon is 'eating every stealth tax in his path' it is much more complicated than that.
Aliens have taken over news media in Britain and the BBC in particular.
This is the only theory doing the rounds when COBRA met to discuss the Crewe and Nantwich by-election failure.
I think this approach has more merit than any other reason that Eric Pickles can give.
Crewe was lost because hoardes of pensioners obtaining free TV licences and fuel allowances take their children to new schools using free travel on their way to a brand new hospital for a reduced waiting time for heart transplants.
This was reported by the BBC (aliens) as a Labour Party in 'freefall'.
When interviewed (by aliens) the Crewe pie salesman man worriedly extolled his fear that 'Labour isn't listening, Gordon put petrol up!'
The reporter, wanting to redress balance asked the quivering respondent: 'What about all things can only get better, Labour?'
The Crewe pie shop owner, replied: 'I don't speak Klingon! but I want Toffs to represent me with their empty bag. Besides, Eric Pickles buys my shop out each time he passes and he's promised me free petrol!'
Not to be outdone and demanding balance, by this time, the Klingon's interpreter stepped in and upped the anti by pointing out that 'You've never had it so good, surely?
'Come to think of it, you're absolutely right, after all, the Conservtives had a 100 years in office and didn't do a tap for Crewe and Nantwich. They shut our railways,shut everything else and own all the supermarkets!'
'Can we have a re-run now you've balanced my mind?'said the Conservative wasteland, pie shop owner?
The BBC, aleinly reported on the 6-0'clock news that: Labour isn't listening. Gordon put petrol and food up. Polls up for Toffs. Polls in freefall for Labour.No pies left in Crewe.
This is why Labour is struggling a little bit.
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There is nothing more dangerous than a politico
with his back to the wall.
Gordon Brown will come out swinging on all fronts.
yes, he needs to listen to his MP's but No! he does not need to follow every daft suggestion they make.
And these stupid Labour MP's should refrain from giving grist to the Mill on very unfriendly newschannels.
I lisened to the Interview today with John Hutton who was treated somewhat hostile. Shame really as he is a polite guy.
Then I lisrened to the interview with Alan Duncan, what a change of tone.
It perhaps could be because Jon Craig has openly bragged on his contribution to the Syy political team that Alan Duncan did after all buy him a dinner.
How cheap does one sell one's soul for this is not even shades of Dorian Grey after all his reasons for selling his soul was down to pride.
Craig's is down to greed not need.
Anything to freeload and it gets one a good write up.
Even Niall Hamilton has boasted on his piece that he had contacts in CCO, I was sharp enough to get that in, and COPY it and the offending piece was removed post haste.
A bit of ambarresment all round I would say.
I hope Labour Politicians realise where their friend are, and where there enemies are definately lurking and keep their stupid mouth's shut.
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I see nothing has changed since I have been away. The same old individuals joining Jack Straw in clinging onto the hopeless belief that Gordon Brown has a long term future in politics. Sad really.
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212
You mean that Tractor production figures are up do you Gary??.
By all means live in the virtual world you seem to inhabit, the simple fact is that the electorate have had enough of New Labour. They have had enough of spend. spend spend and tax, tax and tax.
The economy is wrecked, an ill wind is blowing, and Labour have spent until there's nothing left.
The electorate will have to pay the price for this profligacy, as will Labour at the General Election.
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It's supposed to be a secret that if an MP buys you dinner, you give him a soft interview. Come on, stop letting secrets out, we're British.
Look! If you were to draw a picture of an alien, where would you start?
John Hutton pushes all the buttons but so does Jon craig. Bog eyes, the lot
I love the bit where he was bought dinner and then rewarded himself by giving a freebie interview, after all, Jon is Jon. Way to go, Jon. take one for the team, Jon, Barbados perhaps then followed by a 'Freedom of the SKIES ' award to Lord Ashcroft?
Pssst, Jon, we know, you know!
A list of the top three TV Journalists in the Whole wide World (compiled by Jon Craig, for Jon Craig and on behalf of Jon Craig) positioned the following lucky people in no particular order:
1. Jon Craig
2 Jon Craig
3. Jon Craig
Serious political watchers may have noticed a slight flaw in this compilation, which may by-pass innocent pedestrians but Jon is hoping that we haven't quite noticed this Ant and Dec phone-in type of winner.
As a rule of thumb, it is always best that TV Journalists who take 'freebies' in the canteen half an hour before going on air, should not be themselves open to blackmail if found out, especially by Labour die-hards.
Jon (Mr.Botox) Craig (the full Ann Robinson) may find himself the subject of much criticism and ridicule, if it ever happens, of course.
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#212 gary elsby. I like you style Gary keep it up.
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216#
It will come Gary it will come.
And that fat bloated whatsit will get his come upance as well.
This was whom I thought of as Mr Wonderful for years and years.
It took a non-election just for me to realise the petty vidictiveness of the apology for a man.
Who, because of professional jealousy that Marr got the scoop and not old big-head.
The PLP has been through the mill ever since.
DC. once refused to appear on that channel by a threatened boycott.
I cannot see why L.P.MP's do not do the same.
I complained for weeks on end if it was not Wee Willie Hague it was Davis, on the Sunday show, I even asked if they had managed to get Hague a Journalists pass. As his speaking fees are mind-boggling.
BTW the fairy queen said on his prog. today when they took over his party the Tory would inherit a mess.
Has there been an election without somebody making me aware of it.
Am I imagining that one is not due for 2 years.
Must be going dotty in my old age.
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(#176 grandantidote: By-election reactions, 25th May)
"I see that your as bored by all this name calling as I am..."
(#211 grandantidote: Normal service will be resumed, 1st June)
"When you have all these morons on posts...."
Hmmmmm.....
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Marvellous isnt it. The Labour trolls are out in force today. Attacking Jon Craig on the BBC website.... How original... and sad... But then you've lost the argument, so you do what you did at Crewe and Nantwich, attack people or their class, or their type of car, with no justification whatsoever.
You will still be congratulating the tractor production figures when Labour are annihilated at the next election.
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220#
How original of you!
The first I ever heard of tractor production was around the 1950's during the cold war saga.
For your information that came from the Communist USSR. Who were more interested in production rather than human beings.
Who does that remind me of ? Ah! I know, the Tory, the same people who know the price of everything and the value of SFA!
Tell me laddie were you born then?
And do you realise how immature that statement makes you appear to someone who has lived through those times?
I always split my sides laughing at such childish tactics.
I have seen it referred to a lot on the C.Home site.
is that where you got it from and how adult does it make you feel when somebody takes the Michael out of it?
Politics of the kindergarden methinks, by one of Cameron's Lord of the Flies offspring.
Have a nice evening!
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220#
As an aside, every word I typed regarding Jon Craig was 100% true.
Dispute that of you dare!
Next Troll I aint, I am a dyed in the wool Labour to the backbone supporter..
As I understand the meaning of the word troll it is a person who says something they do not entirely believe in to spark debate.
Nothing could be further from the truth as far as I am concerned.
What I type is what I mean, like it or do the other.
As for loosing the argument, watch this space, I have lived through too many safe seats not to know that they always revert back after a GE.
However that does not mean that this one will as there have been boundary changes.
How much of that did you know, before I told you brain of Britain the first?
The chances are, I have probably forgotten more about politics than you know, but do not allow yourself to stop trying.
Just be a tad more careful of your opponent.
Some can bite back and do!
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222
Bite as much as you like. Dyed in the wool Labour... So that means that you cannot see the wood for the trees. You think everything Labour has done is wonderful. and that the socialist agenda is the only one.
Ken Clarke once remarked that Labour chancellors always run out of money, How right he was.
The British people will be paying for Brown's extravangances for a long while, long after the tractor factories have closed down.
Support who you like, thats everyones god given right, but do have the grace to accept that your view of the world doesn't prevail just now, nor is it likely to come the general election, with or without Brown.( Its debatable which is worse), as there is noone of any calibre in New Labour.
Personally I want Brown to stay. the longer he does, the more certain it is that Labour will be booted out.
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#219 distant traveller, You miss the point old chap when I said" when you have all these morons on posts" I was'nt writing specifically about anyone, I left that open in order that anyone who thought that perhaps I was refering too them could look the word up and see if it fitted their profile, and the difference was that I was'nt being childish I was quite serious about there being morons on these blogs, myself and one or two others excepted of course, but I was refering to the childish name calling,[ mr bean, mcbroon ,teflon Tony etcetra,] now there is a distinction.as I say you missed the point I suggest you read post 211 again and see if you can get it right in the meanwhile I wont call you any childish names.
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# 220 megapolitica junkie. You say "so you do what you did at Crewe and Nantwich,
attack people or their class, or their type of car, with no justification whatsoever"That seems to ring a bell, Ah! yes, was'nt that what the tories and tory press did to John Prescott for ten years
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This would solve a lot of problems. The Labour party suffers from a lack of confidence and they can't stop stabbing each other in the back. This doesn't create good policy or win elections. Getting over themselves is all they need to do, and this will leave the Mugabe politics of the Tories and Disneyland politics of the Liberals in the dust. No effort required. Easy.
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223#
Ah yes laddie! just allow this head in the trees Labour supporter to compare Brown's record with that of the wonderful Mr Ken Clarke's who was the Chancellor who took over from the Lamentable Norman Lamont who thought 3-4 million people unemployed was a price worth paying, for him perphaps it was, as he lost his job, albeit with a fat salary but hey what the hell! 'he was alright Jack'. As for others well, they only suffered, but then why worry they were only the once great Labour force this country had, so they were quite dispensable.
Now back to Clarke.
he was the Chancellor who helped to fight an election promising, NO VAT ON FUEL! and yes I do mean Gas and Electric and no sooner had they been elected, guess what buddy?
In his first budget he put VAT on fuel. How's that for smoke and mirrors?
Not at all what they promised in their election manifesto.
The minute Brown came in he removed it, in his first ever budget, to help the elderly and struggling people of this Country.
Then to add salt to the wounds Clarke was Chancellor during the worst recession we and others in this Country ever suffered
Unemployment was so high that the money spent keeping people idle and on the dole, who did not wish to be, was higher than the cost of the WHOLE! of the defence budget to boot.
Charming aint it? Spending more money on dole, than on defence of the Realm. Business were going bellly up, that had a culmative effect on other businesses, house possesions at there highest ever on record, whole communities completely destroyed
children in povery, leaking school roofs, filthy hospitals, huge waiting lists. Police force under strength, shortage of Doctors, Nurses crumbling buildings, hospital crisis every year during the winter. Dentristy colleges shut down, that is why we cannot get a NHS dentist for love nor money now, we all have to go private. It takes 7 years to train a dentist. Labour re introduced them, but dentist are not graduating fast enough for the Country's needs.
Next we had people working for the princly sum of 80p per hour ,and yes! I did say 80p per hour that is if they were lucky enough to get a job. Hows that for keeping one's belly filled?
And that was if one was lucky enough to get a job
And as for a Chancellor with Clarkes proven record or folly, that is well to put it kindly, Ken being Ken.
A likeable chappie but never had a clue as to how to run the economy successfully.
UK PLC was bankrupt full stop! (except for the stockbrokers).
As for the fallacy that Clarke left a golden inheritance, that's all it is sonny, a complete fallacy I could buy that B.S.if Brown had went under after say, the first 5 years. certainly not this length of time. Every year whilst Brown was Chancellor, the Tories predicted we would end up a busted flush-11 years down the line we still are not, but of course that is Tory wishful thinking for you, keep going on and on with their doom and gloom talk and they will land us with a self fulfilling prophesy, by talking our Country down.
Clarke also said that if we gave people the minimum wage it would create more unemployment. So he and the Tory fought tooth and nail against it kicking and screaming all the way to a GE, which they lost big time, thanks to Ken's wonderful handling of the economy and a few other trivial things like people going hungry, now they agree with it, how wonderful of them is that not?
Brown showed him different, he introduced the minimum wage and that in turn had a culmative effect, one new job created another, as people started to have spending power once more.
You know what I mean by that do you not? That is called earning money, moneyis made round to go round others call it ackers.
We are now hitting turbulent times this is a World-wide phenomena , it is effecting every single Western Country, we are getting off light. The USA is now in recession, Spain is hanging on by the finger tips as is Germany and France is in a complete mess.
Here we do not know we are born and yes, Brown will streer us through these turbulent times, he has done so twice before when we have hit a downturn, make no mistake about that.
And as for tractor production get real and grow up, the childish side of you is once again coming to the fore. if you wish to debate do it as an adult not like a child.
As for the calibre of people in new Labour, what about Milliband or Purnell, that is to name only two, there are others.
Last but not least.
David Mellor, an ex-Conservative Secretary of State who gave Cameron his first Tory job said of Cameron quite recently.
"Cameron should get some principles and stick to them."
Hows that for a recommendation from a Tory Colleague?
Harold Wilson once said a week is a long time in politics, how true.
2 years is a lifetime and that is how long we will wait for a GE, by that time the economy stupid will have adjusted.
Last but not least quite personally, I want Brown to stay on, everybody has got into the habit of eating with the cash they earn.
What a shame to allow the Tory in to change that.
Still the Tory need the cashs for the tax rebates to the super rich and the utilities can go to hell and back once again as they always do under the Tory.
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Kiwilegs wrote:
'Next Troll I aint, I am a dyed in the wool Labour to the backbone supporter..'
This is why I take with a pinch of salt your assertion on a previous thread some weeks ago that you once voted Tory until you had a terrible experience with Margaret Thatcher. Absolute nonsense in my view! By all means continue to support a party that has wrecked the economy and wasted your hard earned money on a gaping hole of public spending but please spare us the fibs!
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Morning all, particularly grandantidote
This is too early but my wife is off to London on the early train!!!
Yesterday I had lunch with a long-time friend and her chap. She is very socialist, ex CND and had her phone tapped, so she says, long ago.
We, of course, got onto GB's current problems. Even she kept saying to my wife, ex local government, "Gordon Brown can turn it round, can't he", sounding quite worried.
The general answer from four of us was NO.
While he has done some good things he has thrown cash at problems instead of having hard working solutions thus wasting a pile of tax payers money,
Also, that he needed Blair to front up his unpopular schemes and with his "ah well" get them accepted.
That on his own Brown is liked a beached whale. With no charisma and no front man he is lost, and can only keep on regurgitating the same list of his achievements, most of which don't now carry any weight with with the population in general.
That really he should go but if he does the British public will not accept another unelected PM.
For my socialist friend to accept this after many years of "animated discussion" is quite something.
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The Tories bullying at PMQ's, the media's power to select bad news and set a demoralising tone, and the Tories claim of 'mission accomplished' may have something to do with that but it's all phoney. I give them some credit for running a successful marketing campaign but it's just wind. Mind affects mind so these things hurt and disappoint if you believe they do. Why? It's only mind. By letting go these phantoms disappear and anything is possible.
Gordon has some issues to deal wih but in a moment of clarity Harriet Harman almost sounded like a human being when she naturally and spontaneously stood against the excess of big corporations and asset stripping of the poor. Normally, she's a fluffy nothing and worse than useless but if Gordon and Harriet can run with their respective strengths and work as a team something useful may come of it.
People with long-momeories may remember my comment that John Reid and Margaret Beckett was my first choice, and that a practical, sociable, and long-term policy approach was best. This has pretty much been borne out by events. Gordon can reach for the big picture and look distant too often. If he can become more grounded and affable, or borrow these skills from Harriet, Labour will reconnect with itself and the country.
Unwind. Relax. No problemo.
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"The Tories bullying at PMQ's, the media's power to select bad news and set a demoralising tone, and the Tories claim of 'mission accomplished'
CEH
What is this rubbish about Tory bullying and "mission accomplished."
The bully is Brown, and Cameron has always said that there is much more to do.
As for the media, this comment is purely an excuse by you to cover the fact that Labour/Brown have mucked things up for themselves and can not accept blame but only blame everyone else.
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230:
I really admire your faith but I fear that it is misplaced. There is no way that things can be turned around because the damage has already been done and when DC rolls out his policies as he is expected to do well before The GE the position may prove to be even more irretrievable.
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228#
I must admit you appear to be a glutton for punishment. I thought you would have learned your lesson with me on the previous occassion when you had your fingers burned, but no, some never learn.
I voted for Tory twice in my life.
Once as a very young woman for Harold McMillan the next for Margartet Thatcher.
The reason I voted for Thatcher was I was sick and tired of union Barons holding this Country of ours to ransome. They had become far too powerful for my liking and I objected most strongly plus the fact I was ashamed of the unions bringing down the democratically elected government of the day led by Ted Heath, who was a decent enough fellow. The last of the Gentlemen Tories, they were a dying breed after his departure.
Next was, I took a very dim view of the dead not being buried and all the strikes. Plus the winter of discontent. I thought Thatcher would make a difference. Oh yes she did, but oh NO, not the way I had hoped for.
Margartet Thatcher was like a breathe of fresh air in the beginning, she done everything right. Then she turned into a Meglomaniac, turning men like her Father into those that more resemble her greedy useless son. With her top-down economics of Reganomics, as it was copied from Ronald Regan.
She had elecution lessons, had her teeth altered until she resembled "Mr Ed" the TV talking Horse.
She fawned over Reagan like a star struck teenager and at times I wondered if she has borrowed his teeth. She was not all bad the only problem being for the many, the bad was really bad and for her new found pals, well they were all right Jack.
Now I do not give a momkey's whether you believe that or not that is entirely up to you.
However I hope this time you will stop becoming a pest and latch onto somebody else.
Next the economy in this country has been wrecked so much so,that now we have the biggest hospitals and school buildings ever on record, the highest number of doctors, nurses and police on record. The highest number of people in work since records began. We still have children in poverty but much less than before. Help has been targetted at ALL the senior citizens regarding fuel, we also have free TV licences for over 75 years old and we have free bus travel for all that are over 60 years old. Plus a christmas bonus, which Hague wanted to do away with had he been given half a chance. We are having pensions restored to earnings which Thatcher in her wisdom done away with. Nice was'nt she hitting the elderly with that little gem?
We do not now pay VAT on fuel. Help is also there to insulate homes. Hospital waiting lists are down.
Right brain of Britain 2008, match that lot with the 18 years the Tory was in power and just remind me. How many were there unemployed when they were kicked out?
Lets see your list of wonderful achievements during the the Tory years.
Answer on the back of a postage stamp please.
Your starter for 10 is, how about starting with the the poll tax, your time begins now?
Over and out!
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CEH
Anyone who honestly believes that Gordon Brown and Harriet harman are a "dream ticket" for the British electorate ......
Do I really need to comment, other than this is desperation.
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Kiwilegs
Your posts are about as long as Gordon Brown's speeches about nothing whatsover its just a rant. And insulting me (because thats what it is) by calling me laddie is another demonstration of how desperate New Labour are, No vision no policies except spend spend spend and tax tax tax. The electorate will soon tell you what they think of Labour policies.
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# 229 mikepko, Good morning my friend.
there you go starting the day off by telling us that your Labour lady friend was looking worried,not surprising really being surrounded by four confirmed Tories who probably were dismissing her support of labour on a four to one basis had it of been one to one it might have been an entirely different story that you were telling us.
With regard to charisma are we now to set our sights on for an example Pierce Brosnam
or some other handsome and charmihg guy to take over the premiership, that would of course let out Dave Cameron as he would'nt qualify. Its not charisma we need its intelligence and thats what we've got . dont make the mistake of getting to cock a hoop over one by election there a long time to go yet.what was it a week in politics is a long time.
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kiwilegs
Old history, things have moved on, Brown isn't the person to take things forward.
Thatcher is gone, the Poll Tax history, new people new ideas.
Labour have run out of ideas. This government is like Attlee's in 1945. It did a lot of different things early on, ran out of ideas and impact and was votes out in 1952.
If Labour stay in power things will only get worse. Every government needs spells in opposition to change itself, build its new ideas without having to commit to them, and become humble again.
This is Labour's time. After a couple of spells under the Conservatives it will probably get back into power. I am pragmatic about this.
Nothing would be worse for Britain than the next 20 years under Labour. Erosion of our liberties, monitoring of our personal communications, more petty laws and rules, just to name three things I absolutely hate about labour.
The electorate will not stand for it as long as Britain is a democracy and labour will go.
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# 232 mutleyspup. when DC rolls out his policies, thats a laugh what policies he has no policies, his excuse is he's afraid that labour will steal them. that excuse is really becoming quite thin, I dont recall to many policies that Labour have stolen from Tories but there are plenty of labour policies that the Tories vehemently opposed that now they totally agree with, remember tuition fees, minimum wage and many other things so were not all waiting with bated breath for Camerons gems we've had a few and they went down like a lead balloon.
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Chucking out insults about the way politicians look never wins any arguments in my book. It's plain rude and just illustrates the paucity of an entranched and weakly held position.
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Kiwilegs wrote:
228#
'I must admit you appear to be a glutton for punishment. I thought you would have learned your lesson with me on the previous occassion when you had your fingers burned, but no, some never learn.'
In your dreams I had my fingers burnt. You would appear to be living in Cloudcuckooland! Have you never heard the phrase ' Sticks and stones .................................................'.
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#223 kiwilegs I had a similar ecperience to you regarding Thatcher, museums and school milk are two of the spiteful things that stand out in my mind, the other things have been repeated here on a regular basis like electicity, gas, water, railways, steel, motor ind, Bt, North sea oil, yet we have not had one explanation for any of it from any Tory, or what they did with the money, that was what the tories gave us. compare that with these terrible socialists on kiwileg post, its no wonder they want the Ttoies back, isnt it!
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Morning grandantidote
You have it wrong. Sarah won't be swayed by anyone if she disagrees, and there were only three others. My wife, to my eternal shame voted Labour last time round and actually likes GB - is that grounds for divorce? - but agrees that labour are getting it wrong now. Sarah's chap is very pragmatic and shrewd and a confirmed floating voter.
So I was the only confirmed Conservative in the room.
Now charisma has nothing to do with good looks. Its being able to handle yourself whatever the circumstances.
Since he's rather more your era than mine you would, I hope agree, that Churchill had charisma but wasn't handsome. Friends of ours, a bit older than you, tell me that when he became PM in 1940 they listened to him on the wireless and the hairs stood up on the backs of their necks. When he said Britain would win they didn't believe we could lose. That's charisma.
Look at Obama in the US, he has charisma. Or JF Kennedy. Both with charisma, both democrats. People you listen to and believe.
As I have said, Brown (with his charisma bypass) needed Blair as his front man. If Brown had been PM in 1997 Labour would have been out ages ago.
CEH suggested that Brown and Harman are the ideal team. What about Darling and Blears, Hutton and Jackie Smith, Balls and Eagle. Not an ounce of charisma between them.
On the other hand, whether you like him or not, Cameron does have charisma in part, and that will persuade the public to give him a chance.
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mikepko, give it up would be my advice. These two have some of the most closed political minds I've ever come across. You can't scratch the surface of blind devotion! I also hated Thatcher for her approach to Public Servants and teachers in particular but I realise that those days are now over and the same thing would never again be tolerated by The British Public. What is in the past pre 11 years ago whether it be the Socialist or the Conservative past should be laid to rest and not dragged up as an argument for or against either GB or DC! They are completely different beasts to their predecessors.
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239 mutleyspup, well mutley I must say that I always thought Tories had a lot of gall but this post takes the biscuit, unless of course you are trying to atlast to educate
the tory posts on this blog. I hope that you dont think that the expression lad or laddie is meant to be offencive particularly by an older person whose had boy children in fact it could in some cases be considered a term of endearment. Laddie is not one of my prefered expessions but I do use the expression lad very frequently so dont be offended,. You'll know the difference when I want to offend you.
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Mutley
Give up. Never. This is such fun.
I work from home and this board provides me with company, albeit somewhat depressing at times.
No, the next two years will see me here as Labour get deeper into the mire and self destruct. C 47%, Lab 23%, Lib 18%.
As you say, the past is the past. Just as New Labour is totally different to Labour and have conned the public for 11 years, so the Conservatives will be different to Thatcher and Major.
If all CEH, grandantidote and kiwilegs can throw at Cameron is the past - poll tax, nationalisation, etc, they are lost. After all, Labour hasn't renationalised, the council tax has gone up astronomically, education standards (as opposed to results due to dumbing down) have deteriorated ........
No, they are clutching at straws, hopefully not Jack Straw as he is a waste of space, and hoping for something to turn up.
Keep posting.
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235#
If you wish to be treated like an adult, learn to behave like one and you will be.
Especially when you are debating with people who lived through the cold war era and have forgotten more than you know about the subject.
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240]# In the meantime you still have not answered one single question I asked. What is wrong a bit of stage fright perhaps, or are you a shrinkning violet?
Or could it be you simply cannot give any logical answer?
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237# Have you got a crystal ball my friend. We have all of 2 years not started on yet for GB to tell us what he is going to do.
One never knows he might even take the best of Cameron's so called policies. Adapt them a bit at the fringes and present them as new Labours.
Now let us see what he could pinch?
Could it be the tax policy that Gideon Osborne presented to the Telegraph newspaper one morning, adapted it by lunch time and was dead and buried by tea time all in one day.
Just like that!
Or try Cameron's solution on Northern Rock, week 1 he supported the government, week two he had changed his mind, week three he needed more thought to the matter.
And bless me week four he had the solution, the only trouble was he would have had to nationalise the banks first to do so.
How apt of the lad.
In the end he was glad Darling sorted it out and there was no run on all the banks.
Thank heavens that governments act and oppositions oppose, that is all that lot is fit for.
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244:
You must have me mixed up with someone else. I never mentioned your use of the word 'laddie' in any of my posts but while we are on the subject I do happen to think that using the term with reference to someone who is opposed to your views is indeed condescending and intentionally demeaning. It is similar to buddy and not in the least friendly and you know it. In no way would I wish to be bracketed with your sons.
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'my friend.'
Another prime example and observed after I wrote my last post!
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Actually, I generally try to stay fairly neutral. I'm aware of the pluses and minuses of all the players, the big picture and more immediate issues. My main interest is sound governance whether that's executed at a national, organisational, or personal level.
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grandantidote:
Do you own 2 computers that allow you to enjoy 2 username identities? I admit I tried the trick for a while but it just got too tiresome and I was rumbled by repeating information that only one of me should have known.
The grammatical and spelling errors, the age thing + the language etc. make me a little suspicious.
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251:
I agree that your posts generally speaking are more reasoned than some of your compatriots and are therefore more interesting to read and more thought provoking but I feel tht you tend to give GB a little more leeway than he deserves. He has after all had 11 years to try and get it right and although he may be well intentioned it is difficult to dispute that he lacks some of the more important attributes required of a great P.M.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
249# Apology for mix up but I am sure the recipient that should have had it will do.
As for my sons, I find it odd that you would not wished to be bracketed with them
Two Doctors one a FRCS (Edin) now practising in the USA, along with his American born Doctor wife.
The other in the South of England a mere GP.
One Auditor and Chartered Accountant and one extremely successful business man running a business between here and France.
......................................
As for your post @ 252 if you are insinuating that grandantidote and myself are one and the same.
Gary and I are very familiar with each other also Bill from Middle England, although we are political opponents.
Neither of us knew grandantidote until arrival on this site.
So now I feel if the insinuation was intended around my quarters an apology is in order.
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251# Charles, I have not even started on Cameron yet , not even as much as to have scratched the surface with my reasons for not wishing to see him in.
I did say reasons and not excuses or wishful thinking forthat matter.
Hold your thunder, all will be revealed in the course of time.
A little patience is all that is required and just wait until I get into full flow.
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I note that today's newspapers have included articles on the following
1 Suggestions that another 4000 post offices could close.
2 The Home Office have, allegedly, paid £8million to the company a person convicted (13 years) of arranging a murder.
3 The government have, allegedly, hidden research whose results show that fortnightly dustbin collections could lead to increased disease and vermin.
4 Alan Milburn commenting on Labour's chances at the next election with Gordon Brown as PM.
5 Suggestions that Labour has been moving funding from rural councils to urban councils in its heartland.
These were from just two newspapers.
Comments please?
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Perhaps, but vested interests make it a bit tricky to be fair. I'm trying to get my head around that plus I've got my own ego issues to contend with. Life gives the test first and lesson afterwards, etcetera.
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257#
Oh dear oh dear, do you suppose that if more people frequented them Adam Crozier just might keep them open, or do you think that money going down the drain to subsidise them is money well spent?
When we retired the queues at our local Post office were very lengthy each Monday and Thursdays's with senior citizens collecting their pensions.
Now the queues are no longer there, people are paid by different methods, plus the fact as a village post office another local shop could have taken over the franchise. They did not and the post office is now selling other merchandise and still remains intact.
So what is Cameron's solution to the problem throw more good money at them to be subsidised?
2. I did notice you said alledgedly. Probably for good reason.
3. the government does not need to hide anything regarding dustbins as any decent housewife will tell you they are a bad idea, I wonder if that is the reason why a lot of Tory Councils followed that which the Labour councils have been doing?
This is up to the local authorities not the government, but hey you knew that did you not?
Next item on the agenda please
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259
Dear legs
I rewrote this as it was stopped first time round - hence allegedly although the papers gave the info as fact.
You and I can comment on these things but all 5 items will influence voters against Labour and Brown.
And your comments that Conservative councils do the same as Labour are correct. However, I tend to believe that were the government to say that collections should be weekly to prevent disease and vermin councils would adhere to this advice.
Or would they. 94% of Probation Officers who voted have today gone for industrial action over pay. Several have done before. Many more will follow.
Is this a sign of a listening government in control and feeling our pain?
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Arrogance and boastful posturing are two of the most unpleasant human attributes wouldn't you all agree? The noone can beat me in a supposedly straight argument stance with all shades of truths and untruths clouding the issues simply doesn't cut the mustard with the majority of fair minded people.
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# 249mutleyspup what excactly did you mean when you said that"in no way would I wish to be bracketed with your sons*?
Of course if your paranoia extends to the point were if you are called lad or laddie or even my friend then your really in trouble, its just lucky you dont live up North or you would think everyone was against you.
No I dont own two computers and I certainly would'nt practice what you claim to have practised, that comes under the tory policy of not letting your right hand know what your left hand is doing.Finally my friend[Oops! sorry] you hav'nt been paying to much attention have you? the whole grammer thing has been well thrashed out so dont try to revive it, good grammer means good education certainly not intelligence my perfect friend [Oops! I've said it again probably down to my poor education] so read earlier posts and educate yourself to whats been going on.
As I said earlier you may have perfect grammer but you have very little grip on reality, you think that your grammer is superior to the many skills that I have, not imaginary one's. if you ever find yourself where your skills could save your life then God help you, your could write a very grammaticaly correct letter but then who would you give it too, No Muttly[ that is your prefered name is'nt it] grammer is nice to have but it wont get you very far in life unless you change your attitude and realise that people who are grammaticly incorrect are generaly more intelligent than those that are,lad. So your also ageist and I suspect just a little sexist.
I must say Mikepko I am surprised that you have appeared to form a highly grammatical association with this rather offensive person.
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252 mutleyspup wrote:
"grandantidote:
Do you own 2 computers that allow you to enjoy 2 username identities? I admit I tried the trick for a while but it just got too tiresome and I was rumbled by repeating information that only one of me should have known."
I dont believe kiwilegs and grandantidote are multiple memberships. like NuLabournohope AKA ontheperipheral
You don't need 2 computers if you dont use autofill on the browser. If you really want to cheat.
The idea of multiple memberships is only useful if you also use "Have Your Say" website as it allows you to multiple recommend and have more than 2 messages an hour. Multiple recommends gets you to the top quickly and as people read from the top of the most recommended they will be recommended even further.
On here its probably not worth the effort. and with fewer messages you will probably be found out.
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grandantidote
grammar NOT grammer
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Yes mike, I do agree that this is not the sign of a listening government. That is the trouble, Brown needs to explain all of this out a bit more to the dim-wits. You know that I know it and everybody else and his dog should know it.
GB has got to communicate far better than he has up until now.
However he was not running the show when those pesky dustbins got altered.
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261, I think you have got something to say to me have you not?
Our sons were well educated through the normal state system due to the fact that we were both determined they would have a better life-styles than we enjoyed although, I done okay managing to gain a bursary which was open to the offspring of Merchant Naval Seamen. Our parents could have never afforded the fees even although my Father was a ship's engineer.
Education was my passion and it has paid off.
Next you make no mention of the alleged same two people.
has the cat got your tongue?
Just a bit tongue tied are we not?
Who mentioned our sons in the first place?
Then as for spelling errors, I can and do make them quite frequently, I have also been known to run around the house looking for my specs to find them on top of my head, silly billy me.
And last but not least where does arrogance and boastful postering come into the equasion?
Please explain yourself a tad more clearly if you can. I certainly am baffled
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264. low comment, have you never been taught it is manners to rise above such things.
Shame on you and your parents who should have taught you better than have you pass remarks like that!
Low, below the belt and quite frankly disgusting. You ought to be ashamed of yourself, you were after all, given a reasoned explanation, which was really not neccessary.
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265 legs
All the more reason to give a steer now regarding dustbins.
While I am seen as Conservative, all I want to see from any government is that
1 they put the people first not politics or clinging to power,
2 they treat everyone as equal
3 they use taxpayers money wisely and do not waste it.
I am a Conservative partly because I have my own one-man-band business helping businesses start-up and develop.
I always give my clients four pieces of advice.
1 Always have a strategy and a costed business plan, fully thought through.
2 Concentrate on the basics. Do the basics well and success will follow.
3 Never waste money on non-core activities. Its easier to spend money than it is to earn it
4 Always listen to your customers. Without them you don't have a business.
5 Always have an escape route or plan of action for crises. If things go belly-up you MUST be prepared.
Since I see the government of the UK as a business I look at it in the same way and in my opinion it fails in differing degrees throughout.
My hope is that the next Conservative government will look at the UK in this way. Its customers are ALL of us and we should ALL be put before politics, party or class, and treated as equal.
Sounds a bit like Socialism, doesn't it.
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267 legs
No. my parents were/are in modern term illiterate but encouraged me with my education My father left school at 12 and wrote very little. My mother was a refugee and while she can read English has someone to write things down for her to copy.
Both were very proud when I passed my 11 Plus, gained 11 O Levels and 4 Levels and a place at university to read Industrial Chemistry.
Both told me, at a very early age, that I needed English and Maths to be a success. English to me means being able to communicate with people at all levels, and to do that required both spelling and grammar.
I do not have a mobile telephone, have no idea how to send a text and send emails in longhand.
Currently 20% of eleven year olds have poor literacy skills, secondary pupils are frequently unable to communicate in writing, and university students, even at Oxford (where I didn't attend) are given crash courses in essay writing.
As for my comment to grandantidote, he spells grammatical correctly so I hope I was helping him with grammar.
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269:
I couldn't have put it better. Well done (my friend.)
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269 Mike. No 1. I will go into a more detailed discussion with you regarding post 268 later on in the day.
As for this one, I would not suggest under the circumstances regarding your parents pass any more remarks. Nobody can help their origins that is an accident of birth.
However that does not excuse you, you ought to have known better than pass such remarks. I take it you were educated in the UK and even if not you ought to have learned by the example of others.
As for mobile telephones I taught myself how to cope with them and I was well past 60 years old at the time, so it is not beyond the wit of any man/woman.
Next as for the 20% there will always be kids that slip through the net, however how much of that is down to bad parenting and the remainder the state system.
That is for the experts to know and you and I to wonder about.
Last but not least, we also have a daughter who like her brother is a Chartered Accountant and Auditor, they are in partnership.
If you care to look back on much earlier threads you will notice I have mentioned this on another occasion. She has a natural aptitude for maths, positively brilliant at them. She has never been able to spell.
She spells bread, breed, bred and sometimes every now and again bread, but only very occasionally, I nearly tore my hair out trying to correct her.
However she is fluent in French, has a good command of German and the latest gimmick is Mandarin.
That could be the same explanation for granditote and one never helps by putting people down.,
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270. Yes you would say that would you not?
Shame you still cannot be man enough to apologise.
Such a pity, but that is what happens when one gets egg on their chin.
Find out about people first then pass remarks later. Have a nice day.
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270 mutley
Thank you, particularly for the tongue in cheek "My friend." In reality I am not a friend of anyone on this board.
I feel strongly that education is important for everyone, and experienced the problems for people with poor education when I worked in an open prison.
I am however pragmatic. Not everyone is created equal intellectually. Not everyone has the same abilities, and while some clever people, like politicians (I didn't say bright) work with their tongues, others whom I admire greatly work with their hands doing things I can only marvel at.
I was very lucky with two tremendous schools.
At primary we had old fashioned teachers who tested our abilities in every direction. The first 45 minutes of every day consisted of tables, mental arithmetic and spelling tests.
My secondary was a very happy school. Only middle of today's league table but with plenty of well known alumni. No it wasn't independent - a state school.
But the most important thing in my education was manners and keeping high standards. These are two things that have served me well inlife.
Today I am appalled by bad manners in the street, on public transport and on TV. But apparently this is all accepted by government in an attempt to prove standards.
What standards?
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271 kiwilegs
What was it Tony Blair told the electorate was the most important thing in 1997?
EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION
What will Labour be judged on in 2010 and be found wanting in?
EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION
We can both quote our own circumstances but that is not the point. Everyone is different, we all learn at different speeds, we have different abilities, and we have different reasons for learning.
Labour has a one size fits all approach.
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272:
Thank you for your parting greeting. I certainly will have a nice day. When I was in New York I heard many such parting gestures and it is really uplifting although some people object to the supposedly empty nature of the words. Thanks again and look forward to seeing you all again tomorrow or perhaps the day after!!
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grandantidote
My deepest apology for correcting your spelling. I'm sure you took it in the tongue-in-cheek way it was meant.
I'm really enjoying our little jousts - such a pity others take it upon themselves to intervene.
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271 kiwilegs
"That could be the same explanation for granditote and one never helps by putting people down.,"
Great post. I consider myself to have been well and truly put down, or at least talked down to.
Are you by any chance related to Dawn Primorolo. She talks down to everyone, even those above her. She reminds me of Churchill's comment on Stafford Cripps as they passed in Parliament, namely
"There but for the grace of God goes God."
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# 278 mikepko, dont worry about it, I accept your apology. I get annoyed when jumped up idiots like you know who are losing an argument and they revert to"I was better educated than you and my grammar is better than yours" so what! that does'nt make him more intelligent than me or anyone else and judging by his posts he has a lot of catching up to do. A little story, I knew a millionair, he was a friend of mine, sadly passed away now, I once asked him how he had managed to amass such a great deal of money when he had so little education,he looked at me pointed to the university behind me and said if I need brains, not to think but to run the every day things I can buy all the education I want from there and if their not good enough I buy someone with better education. Its the know how that counts not the education.
Dont get me wrong if someone is intelligent I have great respect for them but educated people you can buy like any other commodity. Sure I make spelling mistakes and grammatical errors but if I picked up on every one that makes spelling mistakes on these blogs it would be never ending.
What would be nice though if some of you Tories answered a few of the questions posed by Kiwilegs and myself its not old history it was the last Tory government 11 years ago. So read them and try to answer them my friend.
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Mike, No I am not related in anyway shape or form to Dawn Primorolo.
As for talking down to people, I would not call it that, merely issuing a strong reprimand. Exactly in the same manner as I would tell our kids. No matter how old they are they are still our kids!
Glad you were man enough to apologise to Grandantidote though, he has already taken quite a bit of stick regarding his spelling. He has some other most wonderful attributes which I have just recently learned off. A very clever person indeed, with his fingers and hands.
So you see we all have gifts.
Next education, now it would be less than honest of me to even suggest that under the Tory the education system was bad it most certainly was not. However, we had children sharing books, school buildings were crumbling, outside loos were the norm around these parts and a lot never had the benefit of a good University place. All that has changed.
That is what Tony Blair meant by education, education, eduction he tried to and did succede in achieving what he set out to do.
Now allow me to pre-empt you. I do know that more youngsters go to Uni than ever before, I am also well aware that we now charge for it ,whereas in our sons day it was free gratis.
But we have American grandchildren one is ready for Uni, we also have one here who has been on a gap year and will be going this Autumn, he went on the Stuart Highway backpacking in Australia and heavens knows how many more things he done in a year. Very adventurous he is.
I hope nobody is going to tell me that as he has to get a part time job to help through Uni, just as is the norm in America, that my English grandson is more of a wimp than our American grandson. In America they have always had to pay to go to Uni and the work ethic is the norm rather than the exception. So why not here if it helps more kids to get into Uni?
Not so sure about the one size fits all, it is working in some aspects but failing in another and like everything else people no matter how hard they try never manage to achieve 100% success rate in any walk of life, the important thing is they try and give it their best shot. I am sure this is what is happening. Labour has it's faults but not as many as the Tory would have us believe.
Now going back to your original post.
No 1. As far as I am
concerned this Labour government has put people first, by making sure there is employment, looking after their health, seeing to it that there are more police in the Country, it is up to the Chief Constable how he deploys the manpower he has, not H.M.G.
2. Treat everyone as equals, when has a Labour government done any other than that, never to my certain knowledge, they have always put Joe public first and foremost.
3. tax-payers money, well the jury is still out on that hot potato, but where do you think the vast ammount of changes we see all around has come from EG: hospitals, hospital waiting lists, extra Docs Nurses and back up personell, teachers supply teachers ,nursery school teachers, new schools in every area in England, help for the disabled, the elderly, pensions higher,free bus travel, fuel allowance, free TV licences, Christmas bonus. All senior citizens enjoy those perks, heavens to murgatroyd the list is never ending. The money did not come from the bush at the bottom of the garden it belongs to the tax-payer and it is he who is reaping the benefits of it all now. It is not going into GB's pocket.
4. Labour was in power when you started the business what has the Tory got to do with it? Of course that is if you started in the past 10 years, but even if you did not, Labour has made the conditions right for you to keep being successful not hindered you in any way, shape or form.
Plus the fact as creating jobs has a culmative effect you are bound to have benefitted that way if no other.
As for the advice you give others well you pay your money you take your choice, we have never gone far wrong the past 11 years, however we can only speak for ourselves and nobody else. The reason you quote is it sounds like socialism is because it is exactly that.
Cameron has done summersaults to change the Tory, he has copied everything that Blair did and has done right down to some of his answers at PMQ's for instance. How many times have you heard Cameron say to Brown quote:? It is for me to ask you the questions and for you to answer, if you wish it the other way around we will change places then you can ask me as many as you wish.
Blair said that first to John Major.
Cameron is a cheap carbon copy of Blair, now I ask you, why have plastic when one can have leather?
A vote for Cameron is a vote for a watered down version of Tony Blair, make no mistake about that scenarion. It is alive and kicking, I recognise it only too well and so does others who are newcomers to this blog-site. We are not daft.
Keep asking questions and listening, I will convince you of turning Labour before we have finished.
Make no mistake about that.
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garndantidote and kiwilegs
Thanks for the in detail replies. No legs, you will never, ever get me to vote Labour. Even if they were the only party and voting was compulsory.
Of course you both look at things since 1997 through rose-tinted specs.
My business has been going since 1989, and I have never been out of work through thick or thin. Happily the UK has plenty of talented people who want their own businesses no whatever the political or economic environment.
My main complaint about Labour is that they are always interferring with everything.
My wife worked in local government and had to take on a manager at £28k just to fill in the forms the government wanted. As soon as they got used to the procedure it was changed, and so it went on. And of course she spent ages managing the paperpusher making herself less efficient.
The NHS has had so many initiatives that they don't know if they are coming or going. My sister in law is a ward manager and has been driven mad by all the changes, particularly by double and triple counting of extra money.
My other sister in law is a teacher who would like to teach, not spend all of her time in endless paperwork. Another friend is a qualified nursery teacher. Likewise the paperwork has led her to retire from a job she enjoyed to do a cleaning job and look after her grandchildren two days a week.
Look at the police and the paperwork they have. Happily several forces are no not cautioning young children for playground fights!!!
All this wasn't to make the different services better, simply to make Labour look good.
You see, its not the good things that Labour have done that is turning people against them. Its the constant interferrng in all our lives. The need to control everything. Labour have always been like that.
Anyway, one party always builds on the good things the previous party does. Labour and Conservatives have done that since the war. The worrying thing is that the staunch supporters believe that their party is the only one that can do the job properly.
The person I really admire is Lee Quan Yew in Singapore. Ok he was autrocatic but he know what he wanted to do, turn Singapore into a top commercial city. And he has. There is little or no crime, you are safe walking the streets at 2am, fantastic infrastructure, a standard of living in the top 3 in the world, great education and full employment. Council housing is top quality (no smell of pee in the lifts) and people who don't want to move abroad to work - my brother in law wanted some of his staff to move to Hong Kong - none would go saying why would they ever want to leave Singapore.
Compare that to what we endure in the UK. Labour has had a mandate for 11 years to really make a difference for EVERYONE and has wasted the opportunity.
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Before I go to bed can I please ask who or what is the Tory? Never heard of it.
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280# free country your choice that is what is known as democracy in action. it sure beats the hell out of what else is on offer.
......................................
281# Before I go to bed I would like to ask why is it so hard to make an apology when one is completely and utterly wrong?
A Tory is a completely objectionable human being full stop, of which you are a prime example of. Now you have the answer to, who is and what is a Tory, a person exactly like yourself. You are THE!! prime example.
Have a good nights sleep won't you as I certainly will.
Last but not least, you have to be wide awake to keep up with me, I can and will teach you the true meaning of sarcasm. Keep it going and observe where it gets you, I chew people up and spit them back out of your ilk.
Watch this space.
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281 mutley / 282 legs11
Well there you are then. The true colours of socialism. If you are Labour you are wonderful, and if you are Tory you are a "truely objectionable human beings."
This is the person who posted yesterday that Labour is for everyone (except of course the "truely objectionable human beings").
No wonder Labour are is such trouble.
Mike "Truely objectionable human being" Pelesko
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Anyone sympathetic to Labour would be better off just ignoring 'online jousting' because it just fuels the buzz the Tory troublemakers get out of knocking you down and wasting your time. Every reply given in return is a win for them. Really, it's better just to write the best comment you can and let the baiting slide by.
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CEH
Just as I would have expected. Socialists want it all their own way but don't have the stomach for the fight.
I can't help thinking that you are a clone of Brown; lots of tinkering around the edges and NO SENSE OF HUMOUR.
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Okay then so the P.M. is the brown. Fair enough! Nor do I make apologies to those I completely and utterly disrespect. Is that good enough for you?
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284:
The baiting you talk about was actually initiated by the individuals you speak of. We are merely responding in kind to their unpleasantness. I totally respect the sentiments behind what you are saying however. It does noone any good to descend into personal abuse. It merely destroys any cogent arguments you may have.
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283# No Mike the true colour of Labour is to have enough courage and backbone to apologise when one is so very wrong. I do that quite frequently. I misjudged you , and gave you credit when you did exactly that yesterday, whereas the person you are defending was not man enough to do so himself, when he was so very, very wrong and completely out of order.
I must say I was very disappointed to read your post, I thought you were a gentleman, but then even at past 70 years old, I too can be sadly mis-led and decieved by people. We are never too old to learn. I do however learn by my errors.
Please do not reply, as you now have nothing to say to me that I wish to read. You ought to have checked facts out for yourself first, then commented on them, not jump in with both feet, without realising reasons. Extremely disappointed in you, to defend a coward.
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mikepko, you have been accused of not being a gentleman but this is certainly no lady we are dealing with. You only have to read her comments on post history to realise that. I'll leave you to defend our corner. I'm done with the constant vile references to 'the Tory'. It's becoming boring and totally non productive as CEH has already said!
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283#.
There you go Mike, as you can see for yourself, your hero still does not have either the courage, the backbone or is man enough to apologise for his actions and words.
But hey! just check what was written prior to this, then judge for yourself.
BTW, this can be one tough old cookie and definately NO Lady! when it comes to defending her sons and daughters whom she is extremely proud of.
As she should be when considering all their achievements and success.
I also think he has taken post 284# completely out of context.
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I have no issues with your family who I am sure are all upstanding, successful and well balanced citizens. It is your political views and the language that you use to defend them that I find so objectionable. But hey it takes all sorts I suppose so let's leave it at that!
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291:
What I meant to say of course was it's not actually your political views in themselves that I find objectionable. After all in a free society everyone has a right to their own opinion. It's merely the unpleasant language used to promote them and the manner in which you attack contrary views.
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