Negative campaigning
Crewe: Surprise surprise, Harriet Harman has cancelled her visit to Crewe today. Yesterday Labour's deputy leader admitted that her party's campaign here was not very positive. Perhaps she felt that being pictured with a leaflet asking "Do you want a Tory conman or a Dunwoody", between a picture of a top hat and a bow tie, might just have reinforced her message.
She is apparently too busy in the House of Commons to come to Crewe today, however that's not stopped the home secretary, the chief secretary to the Treasury, the cabinet office minister, the terrorism minister and many other MPs.
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What has struck me about this campaign in Crewe and Nantwich by New Labour is just how deeply they have dug into the Clinton bag of dirty tricks.
Some things American should stay there.
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Fantastic snippet, as usual. The rats desert the sinking ship.
Could this also be lined to the fact the Harriet was the beneficiary an extremely expensive and private St Paul's school education?
I think we should be told.
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We have been to Crewe twice during this byelection. Primarily to test an idea that voters often are not aware of why they vote for a particular party. We asked numerous voters who frequently the Costa Coffee shop in the town centre and found they were quietly surprised by the result. So perhaps instead of going onsite Harriet should go online. Mind you the results may be equally depressing. http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/byelection
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Harriet is a career girl and theres no points in standing beside a loser.
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You have to wonder what the late Ms Dunwoody Snr. would have made of it all.
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As I understand it, the Tory candidate is being attacked for:
1) having a big house (the Labour candidate's is bigger)
2) attanding a posh school (the Labour activist in the pictures went to an older, posher school with better results)
3) coming from a wealthy family (who built up their business around that area before expanding, pay to make employees' dreams come true, and give every employee their birthday off)
4) being a "typical toff" and not caring a jot about the community (despite his parents having fostered around 80, yes 80. children over the last 40 years or so).
At least if you're going to engage in a bit of old-fashioned dirty class war politics, you might check the facts first, wouldn't you think?
P.S. I thought Labour was against the Hereditary Principal (or do they make exceptions when they desperately need to win?)
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It's difficult to have a positive campaign when you have nothing positive to say.
Labour have simply gotten used to being voted in on the back of 1 single slogan, which is : "If you think we're bad, just look at the others"!
Well, I think people are now considering doing just that.
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I hear there is a shortage of anti-stab vests in Crewe.
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Looks like the NuLabour dirty tricks brigade are out in force.
I can only repeat a recent blog I have read.
It is difficult to see when a bad week ends and a new one begins with NuLabour!
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Putting aside the "Tory conman" aspect, the initial positioning of the Labour candidate irked me.
Dropping the Kneafsey from her surname which she used whilst in the Welsh assembly.
You have to draw your own conclusions, but it doesn't come across as being straightforward. Not like the woman she is looking to replace...
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Disgraceful campaigning. It rather makes Gordo's claim about the party of substance look totally shallow. It seems the Tories are doing the political campaigning, whilst Labour are indulging in suicide/gutter politics. I do hope the voters of Crewe and Nantwich have the sense to reject Labour completely. After all it would only be a reflection of what the nation wants.
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The Labour campaign has looked nasty and infantile. Apparently one Labour supporting tabloid was last week showing a picture of Tory activist out canvassing in an old Bentley and claimed that this proved they were toffs. They forgot to mention that Bentleys are made in Crewe and by all accounts local people are very proud of them. If you have a Bentley then you're backing Crewe workers, then is probably a touch too sophiticated a point for Labour Party managers.
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I've just heard Ms. Dunwoody in Crewe say on TV " People dont want to vote for someone with a family fortune" .... is this the best argument she can come up with for voting Labour ? ... you should have listened to your dear old mum, luv. A pity you only strive to inherit her seat and not her razor-sharp intellect.
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When asked isn't she the niece of some duchess and went to expensive private schools?, Harriet H, said "I haven't made an issue of my background" - having just made one about the Conservative candidate's background.
She then says "Under the Tories.. " - amazing after three terms in office and the last two governments being Labour, they are still trying to scare people with images of Mrs T. Like the 'Toff Campaign', they seem to have run out of ideas. I can't see myself voting Tory but I'm not surprised that many former Labour votes are switching. Listen to David Cameron speaking today, I thought 'at least I can understand what he is saying'. Listening to Gordon Brown, when I can bear it, is like hearing a monologue addressed to academics about subjects you have little interest in or you think 'I thought this was sorted already' or 'Oh God, No!'
Harriet doesn't want to go to Crew because she's probably seen the results of Labour's private poling and knows it's going to be another rejection of their policies by the voters.
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Nick, not the best election campaign for sure, but backed into a corner by a media who are baying for change perhaps understandable? Or perhaps the tory candidate is so bland there is nothing to attack. Like the rest of the party, puerile and substance free?
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I saw all three candidates together on lunchtime news. Tamsin Dunwoody apparently agrees with all the negative campaigning as it visually highlighted the difference in background between her and the conservative candidate.
Given her conduct and the whole tone of her comments, she looked as if she had just stepped of the film set of "Shameless".
I don't blame Harriet Harman for staying away - Nick, if you to go anywhere near this woman on this showing, then you wouldn't want to go there either.
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As you say - Surprise surprise.
I suspect the spin doctors are already working on the sound bites to follow the announcement of the result.
"The electorate have not yet appreciated the changes to tax and the policy initiatives of the last few days, they will be much more positive towards us in the coming months"
"The result was not as bad in some respects as predicted and we take comfort from that, as a government expects to lose popularity in mid term."
"The turnout was not typical of the norm during a by election hence the pattern of voting cannot be typical of that at a General Election"
"This should not be considered as an endorsment of Tory Polcy or lack of it"
"The false accusations of dirty tricks by the Tories was totally unacceptable and harmed our campaign"
"We are resolved to take the country forward through these difficult times."
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I live in Nantwich and I have been disapointed by the simplistic and negative labour campaign.
The Tories theory on why we should vote for them though is ridiculous. I agree when they say that the original 10p tax decision shows that Labour care more about the votes of middle income earners than they do about poor people, but what they're basically asking us to do therefore is to vote Conservative as a protest against Labour's policies being too Conservative!
After all, the Tories spent 18 years in government caring more about middle income earners than they did about poor people, do they think we've forgotten?
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Just wondering if you were planning on giving your views on the Tory donation scandal - or would that be too risky?
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#15 Metalwork
By-elections are always a bit wierd as they tend to distort and magnify the relative positions of the major parties (rather than giving you an accurae reflection of where the electorate really stands). To that extent, my view is that the results need to be viewed in this context.
But to campaign exclusively along the lines of trying to trash the opposition has got to be extraordinarily dangerous, hasn't it? Doesn't it just suggest that the Labour candidate hasn't got anything to say for herself or her party?
By the middle of a third term I'd exepct any ruling party to get a bloody nose in a by-election, council elections or european parliament elections. So they're probably on a hiding to nothing unless they can build on the independence and integrity of a fairly unique predecessor (the late Mrs Dunwoody). They seem to be singularly failing to do this, which suggests that they're going to struggle to stop the rot (which was always going to be hard) and they are not going to emerge with any credit to carry forward (which is good news for the Conservatives and an opportunity missed for Labour). I agree with a few of the comments above, any Labour MP with half an eye to the future is probably desperate to steer clear of this one.
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Well, I guess there's only a few more days to go before we all find out how it pans out.
I expect the people of Crewe will show their distaste of the labour campaign via their votes, and it'll simply add to whatever the existing anti-labour swing might have otherwise been.
The labour campaign is almost as offensive as racism, and equally self-defeating. It's downright nasty and I hope labour get severely kicked for it.
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Crewe have forgotten that the Tories left them in a big dump after 17 years of very high unemployment, and crime.
The last kick in everybody?s teeth came in September 1992 when the RH David Cameron plunged UK into the biggest recession on record.
Are we forgetting that the same person that gave us 16% interest rates, third world countries NHS, and over 3.5 million unemployed is the same person who is begging you to leave the economy in his hands?
Cameron masterminded September 1992 FIASCO and should never ever be forgiven for it. That was not seasonal, but structural economic mismanagement!
Have you ever wondered why Cameron or anyone in the Tory party never mention that time? They were times of great hardships in Crewe!
Now he is trying to come up pretending that he is a goody, goody and defender of the unfortunate. Who does he think he is kidding? Pull the other one Dave.
Ex Tories who suffered in the 90s will never forgive Cameron.
Lest we not forget!
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It really is amusing to see the vacuous Conservative war machine talk itself up in working class Crewe.
Those two jolly hockey sticks Tory Toffs busying themselves acting as though they are the voice of pies and whippets.
What next? We want more!
How about saying sorry for the Thatcher years, or pulling out of the race because of the Major travesty?
Just say it how it really is and not how you would like it.
How about a poll tax for Crewe or pegging the Country to the german Mark?
Why not go for GOLD and apologise for the Railway industry?
Tories are Tories no matter how they deny it. The 'heir to Blair' is only a figment of their own small imaginations.
Honesty in politics is best served by telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing like the Conservatives think is the truth.
They are rich, they are Toffs and they have no connections whatsoever with either Crewe or Nantwich.
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Nick I am not sure if Crewe will be enough to dislodge Brown but the lack of an ideal candidate will probably start to be outweighed by the issue of a PM who prepared an emergency budget to buy off the voters - and failed. They are in free fall.
Now he will be a Scottish MP facing a likely SNP 2010 referendum win so you don't need a Phd in Rocket Science to guess what will happen next.
As an English guy who is quite happy for Scots independence I do question the wisdom of a Scots PM as the UK breaks up. If hes going, better to go soon. Agony aunt Frank Field will surely help him with his dithering.
There appear to be no contingency plans or policy discussions to cater for how you successfully disentangle Scotland from the UK. Maybe I am overestimating the problems (IT;security; tax collection; foreign policy; EU contributions; energy policy).
Its like ostriches with their heads in the sand.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE wake the politicians up and get this on the agenda.
England expects?
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@15 "Or perhaps the tory candidate is so bland there is nothing to attack. Like the rest of the party, puerile and substance free?"
Give me purile and substance free over harsh, nasty cruel and vicious anti-working class, pro billionaire elite labour any-day.
Labour pretend to be working class whilst behaving utterly elitist and remote.
Labour spent over a year defending a budget that doubled the income tax on the poor whilst bailing out billioniare bankers, then only backed down into a knee-jerk mess when utterly forced in to a blind panic by their plummeting numbers.
Now they have decended into the most pathetic and childish of gutter panic politics in Crewe and can only hurl shoddy, last century insults as they have nothing to offer themselves to the people of Crewe by way of reason to vote for them.
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#22,
Why not go and read some books before making such wild and blatantly false accusations.
#23
"these two jolly hockey sticks, Tory Toffs.." Talk about Class war!?! Anything you say after that sentence is automatically null and void...
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#23 GaryElsby
Or maybe the people of Crewe would like to go back to the 3 day week, or 20% inflation, or mountains of rubbish piling up in the streets because half the country was on strike all the time.
Selective memory?
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If Harriet Harman has been campaigning on the class system.
Shame on her.
What is so damn maddenings she does not need to resort to these silly practices.
What she should be doing is concentrating people's mind that Cameron has never ever said he would re-instate the 10p tax band and the only two policies he has ever committed himself to is the Inheritance tax and stamp duty.
I am quite sure that there are many homes in Crewe area that come into the million poiund bracket. Get onto policy and leave the dirt behind.
Cameron is throwing money in this constituency to try and buy it. However Thursday is 3 more days away.
He is even sending coachloads of people to canvass the area. If he looses on Thursday it will be because of over-kill,the
old adage is a week is long enough in politics.
Concentrate on the shallowness of the Tory and what have they to offer other than Cameron is not Gordon Brown.
Get off your knees and fight Labour!
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Has it occured to anyone that this may be a deliberate campaign to protect Gordon?
Now, when Labour get hammered by the electorate, it can all be blamed on the bizzare 'anti-toff' campaign - nothing to do with Gordons own disaterous actions at all.
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I think #22's attempt at historical revisionisn is wide of the mark. In fact, Cameron was an adviser - not Chancellor; that's like blaming Charlie Whelan for Gordon's smash and grab on our pensions. The Chancellor was Norman Lamont who was himself stuck with an ERM decision made before he became Chancellor which everyone - CBI, Labour, Liberals, TUC - supported. Before he became Chancellor Lamont was Chief Secretary to the Treasury, responsbile for Government spending, not ERM policy. It was Lamont's treasury that introduced the idea of Bank of England independence to Brown, who adopted it. Brown also adopted Ken Clarke's budget. He also adopted Major's wait and see aproach to joining the Euro. They also adopted the Tories trade union legislation. Thankfully, Labour also started to vote for the renewal of the Tories anti-Terror legislation, which Labour voted AGAINST when in opposition as the IRA were bombing around London. Lastly, Brown also benefited from a falling inflation, falling unemployment, falling bank rate and growing GDP from Ken Clarke.
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On the back of John 'if its not hurting, its not working' and ' its a cold, cold world outside the ERM' Major, Norman Lament stood outside and shivered as we exited the ERM.
I drew one conclusion, which was that these people had not the faintest clue what they were doing.
I doubt very much whether 'Dave' and Osbourne do either, but it hardly seems to matter in our dysfunctional political system.
It's buggins turn.
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Harriet Harman just doesn't reside in the real world, does she? Watched the clip on her on the Politics Show and there she is wittering on about how the cretin Brown has steered the economy through a difficult team years. What on earth is that all about? The last ten years, economically, have been a walk in the park.
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That should've read ten years, not team years.
And while I'm on the subject of Harman, isn't her husband the dopiest man on the face of the planet. Every time there's a scandal over funding for the Labour Party, he - the party's treasurer - just looks a mixture of stupid and angry as he admits to knowing nothing about it.
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Who cares. The game is up.
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The main issues Labour has no answers to - massive shortage of social housing for rent, NHS dentists, lies about the inflation rate. If Labour concentrated on sorting just those it would be laughing.
But this isn't about that, this is about our 'arriet, or lack of in public.
Harmann is one of the four 'Horsemen Of The Apocolypse', Blears, Cooper and Kelly being the other three.
Any of those 4 only have to open their mouths for Labours vote to decline. Irritating best describes all four of them. best of kept out of sight lest they do more harm than good. The seat is lost, it's damage limitaion now.
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Well one way to find out, see which way the voters will turn, after all it's they who will decide who stays or not if the case may be.
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#23. Why would the Tories say sorry for the Lady Thatcher years? Sorry for saving the country from Stalin's ideological heirs - Scargill, Red Robbo et al? You should be thanking the Tories for restoring the country's finances to such an extent that McBroon is now able to offer unfunded tax cuts without asking the permission of the IMF.
Surely Labour should be apologising to the country for foisting an incompetent and unelected Prime minister on us?
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That poster was a big mistake and it works against labour. That is obvious. I don't think anyone will disagree with that.
But the problem is that you are using this poster to allow a lot of negative campaigning against Labour. Through your blog. Are the conservatives saints when it comes to campaining? Is Nick Robinson using responses from his blog as a mandate to forward his own leanings?
Like I have said before, every class whichever party they vote or none. pays the license fee. We deserve better than an 'Angry from Tumbridge Wells' Poodle.
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Its great to read all of the Labour clutching at straws and going back 16 year for comfort.
As I remember it, and I was in the middle of a bomb hoax at Gatwick waiting to fly off on holiday, Norman Lamont was the Chancellor, not Cameron, and he was held responsible.
I notice that no-one has mentioned the 1000+ quangos spending over £100billion a year, when Brown said in 1995 he would reduce the number. As you can guess, the number of quangos has risen greatly.
My wife, who worked in Local Government, and is now a consultant specialising in Local Government enlightened me as to how the government works.
1 It sets up a quango to put a barrier between itself and the problem.
2 It gives money to the quango for it to distribute.
3 When things go pear-shaped it says "We have funded this problem with £Xmillion and the quango has mucked it up. They are to blame, not us."
We now have quangos for almost everything, at a cost of about £2500 per person, many of which compete against one another.
The problem is the government throws money at problems without a coherent strategy, other than following the current news item, and wastes so much of that funding.
I try to make my clients develop rational business plans, including control of finance, that they can follow in building their businesses. In my professional opinion the government does not consider an approach worth entertaining. Such a pity.
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26 above:
There is nothing like seeing 25 stone starving Conservative Millionaires dragging themselves around Crewe and Nantwhich, feeling every bit of our pain!
Straight out of Eton and catch the first (class) train to Crewe.
Someone should be kind enough to inform the landed Gentry that the working classes in Crewe and Nantwhich bunked off school during Latin classes and they haven't a clue what you're on about.
As a rule of thumb, you don't go to Crewe in a by election and talk of 'One Nation Conservatism'.
Dave Cameron and his policy (1, granted) is about as far removed from Crewe and Nantwhich, as is Eton from the Nelson Mandela Comprehensive 'special' school in the Borough of Hackney!
Dave hasn't brought a new Hospital to Crewe but as sure as George Osborne's real name is Gideon, he'll certainly show how Crewe will 'save money' for the Country in a budget.
Yes Sir!
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#30
You have forgotten the 30B pounds, from the sale of Council Houses, that the Tories left in the rainy day cupboard.
That appears to have been wasted in one of NuLabours numerous black hole spend expeditions.
RAINY DAY CUPBOARD - NuLabour do not like that expression.
The best McBroon can say on Friday - its been a bad hair day!
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#37 - Scotorummalleus
As a conservative I'd say the whole mandate thing is a real non-issue. Labour acted in keeping with our constitution, as did the Conservatives when Major replaced Thatcher. If anything, the fact that Brown was not the leader at the time of the elections only serves to hurt him now, especially in the wake of the on-off snap election last autumn.
Competency is, of course, another issue - and is the one that everyone is focussed on at the moment.
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I know Crewe and I know people in the Crewe Labour Party. Some - a significant minority - are on the verge of open mutiny. They've had enough of the 'New Labour' rubbish. They went along with Blair to get to power (more fool them). They had a good solid traditional Labour MP and that helped hold them together.
They thought Brown would be a proper Labour PM and they now realise that he's actually Blair with no charisma. That's not what they want. They want a return to traditional Labour policies and initiatives or they will leave the party. No if's, but's or ands. Chester CLP just up the road is in the same mess internally - it's probably widespread across this region now.
You watch, come Friday morning Crewe CLP will implode.
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it's a shame NuLabouur supporters can't put up anything +ve about what they now stand for or what they'd like to do.
So I'd like to propose a few thoughts for them;
Selling all our gold at the bottom.
Busting the private sector pension system
Spending three times as much on the NHS and having their health secretary booed at a nurses conference.
Busting Northern Rock
A tripartite system that doesn't work
Losing the nations documents but ploughing ahead wih an ID card sytem that doesn't work
Bankrupting Railtrack
An education minister who says "so what?" to even higher taxes after eleven years of non stop no impact increase in spending and control
Rover bankrupt and sold to the Chinese for tuppence ha'penny
Cash for peerages
taxing the poorest in society
taking us cap in hand to the IMF, bankrupt
giving us 83% marginal taxation
half the country's public sector workers out on strike
the dead left unburied
rats on the street as litter not colllected
'sympathetic' strikes
lowest educational standards in history now not even accepted by the university system
Weapons of mass destruction - NOT
a war with Iraq that has lasted longer than either WWI or WWII
troops without equipment
highest levels ever of personal indebtedness
A £2.7bn by-election bribe (a record first that one, I think)
These are the magnificent achievements of your eleven years in power (with a few from the previous administration thrown in for good measure)
To cap it all we have this nonsense returning about 'jolly hockey sticks Tory toffs'
And if none of the above works on the doorstep then clearl 'a vote for Dunwoody is a vote for Brown' is a sure fire winner when Gordon has the lowest personal rankings of any Prime Minister on record.
Wish I was on the stoop with them, now. So much to boast about!
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Nick, allow me to counter some lies above. May I challenge anyone who is saying that Cameron was not the adviser to Lamont for the September 1992 FIASCO, when we plunged into the biggest recession in UK. Nick, a barrel of oil was $18 in them days.
Nick, it looks like an Ex Tory is a very sharp knife in the backs of those that want us to forget or even lie about political and economic mismanagement in our country, when according to BBC analysts we had STRUCTURAL problems in the economy.
The Tories are trying to gain political advantage by trying to alienate us from their horrible past. They are NOT coming up with the numbers.
Eventually they will cut tax they claim.
Thanks a lot, I am paying 20% instead of 24% where the Tories left it. Oh, and before you all forget VAT is still 17.5% as it was in 1997. Between 1981 and 1997 it went up from 8% to 17.5%. Capital gains tax went up to 40% under the Tories. How much is capital gains tax at the moment dear experts? Company tax is now the lowest it has ever been. According to BBC analysts, if we kept the fuel tax escalator, petrol would now cost £2.40 a litre. By the way, the Tories never ever wanted an independent BOE, in fact they voted against it's independence.
Does one need any more proof of Tory hypocrisy?
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Oh dear, oh dear, what is Gary Elsby doing? Does he spend his whole life like this?
We need never apologise for the Thatcher years - Mrs T restored the name of Great Britain in the world; brought our finances to an even footing and won the Falklands War for us. The Poll Tax was perfectly fair and reasonable - each individual should pay something towards the costs they accrue locally. What was wrong with that? The current Council Tax is even more unfair than the Poll Tax.
Dear old Gary is stuck in the politics of envy - have you seen Harriet Harmon's house, Gary? Have you spotted Big John Prescott in one of his six houses? Have you seen Tony Blair trousering millions of pounds for public speaking?
Just look at what this lot have done - Tax and Spend plus more Tax.
I'll be voting Conservative, that's for sure.
Bazzer
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What a lot of people forget about ERM is that Gordon Brown supported the policy, which, to be fair, is more than Norman Lamont did. Part of the reason Lamont was so despised after the ERM debacle was his obvious delight in its failure. The poor bloke didn't even support the increases in interest rates and Bank of England intervention on the day, but Major over-ruled him.
But, of course, in an example of opportunism, Brown and Labour quickly disavowed they previous pro-ERM stance. How quickly they forgot this when they started hurling accusations of "naked opportunism" at the Tories after taking power.
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At least Harriet has saved us all first class train fair.
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40# Glad to see you on board Gary, I hope we get some others from you know where and I hope you keep it as a Tory Blog-site only which I predicted it would end up.
I would welcome the other Lady to come onboard to this blog-site.
David Cameron thought he was Canvassing in Nuneaton when he arrived.
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#40 - GaryElsby
So we're a nation of caviar eating, monicled hooray henries or flat-capped, push-bikes-and-cobbled-terrace workers with nothing in between?
Or maybe people are just people, with their own sets of hopes, fears and concerns?
Maybe you do speak for the people of Crewe, but I'll carry on working on the assumption that your opinion is just your opinion and everyone else has a mind of their own.
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40#
Welcome onboard Gary.
I am glad to see you are not contributing to the most recent TORY blog-site, you know the one that I mean.
I hope Mike Simpson, Craig, Rae, Morning Mail and Carol-Ann join us.
Debate is more reasonable here without the need for
political hysterics from places like Kent and South Africa and silly little boys from the south playing student politics not to mention Wednesday poll. I think this coming Wednesday Cameron just might get 100% ratings at the speed Labour people are deserting the site. What say you, leave them to it I say.
In fact this is one of the more sensible sites where people will debate.
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Re: Comments of 23
Reading comments such as these, it seems to me that the so-called class system is being perpetuated from the bottom up, and the opinions of this commenter appear to show a hatred/jealousy(?) of people with a different and (I suppose) a more advantageous upbringing than they had. As an advantageous upbringing is (again I suppose) the result of having parents who gave their children a good start in life, and this is surely the aim of every (good) parent today, I can't see what the problem is, except perhaps the weight of a very large chip on the shoulder.
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@ 43, I am sure that you are correct and the image cast by Brown by bailing out billionaire bankers whilst doubling the income tax of the poorest working class voters will not have helped, nor will his blatant panic forced attempt at bribery in the knee-jerk budget. Even then they lied and tried to claim that this was a long planned budget exersize. The labour party's supporters are decent, hard working people who want a decent chance of a decent life, to work, pay a reasonable amount in tax that will be well spent to provide quality public services for all.
Unfortunately for Brown and his elitist cabinet, the labour voters are seeing that he has turned newlabour into a foul caricature of the old nasty tory party and he has been shuveling bucket loads of cash into the private sector for years. He has privatised more of the public services and public assets than the tories did. Then he has mortgaged the future on PFI's that are not even listed on the UK liabilities. doing so would push debt as share of GDP to well above Gordon's limits and make the tory spending during the early 90's recession look like spare change.
The trouble is, Gordon simply has no understanding of money or capital. If he did, then he would not have allowed the profligate lending regime that has been running wild under the so-called stewardship of the Bank of England. All those equity backed loans to pay for new cars, holidays and plasma TV's have to be paid back sometime, and now that property prices are falling, and people cannot borrow their way out of trouble, the long predicted crash is going to bite Brown's economic credibility deep, and rightly so! The last 5 years should have been seeing a modest downturn, but with thousands and thousands of people living off their incomes + a share of their equity, then going on wild spending sprees, this has artificially held the economy afloat longer than was otherwise sustainable.
Negative equity was the killer of the Conservatives in the 1990's, as much as sleaze or too long in office or Major's lack of charisma, or government's lies and distance from the electorate and their gross arrogance. Brown will find the same combination of events are proving to be his downfall too.
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Here we go again, the Eton calsses drag up the old chestnut of 'Thatcher made us great' by doing what exactly?
What did she do for Crewe?
1.Gave away Britain's Sovereignty
2. Opened up the floodgates of immigration.
3.Poll tax (they loved that in Crewe)!
4.Shut the pits
That set of policies is like a fish out of water in Crewe, or Gideon Osborne without a silver spoon in his mouth(They're keeping him out of the way all right!)
Let's not talk about jealousy in housing issues.
John Prescott scrimped and scraped his knuckles finding the cash to buy his modest home and Harriet just got lucky!
Gideon on the other hand, needs a sat nav just to find his way out to the front door!
And Dave's home is so huge, it needs to have its own energy source (a Nuclear reactor or windmill, I know not which).
The Tories are so bent on the politics of envy, Dave wishes himself to Tony Blair.
Why don't the Laurel and Hardy of Eton Conservatism go to crewe and say: 'I'm Dave and this is Gideon. We're here to represent you working class types'!
Then let's see the polls.
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If the economy has been so well managed since 1997 (the date history began according to labour) why are so many people in debt? Why is the govt so much in debt? Surely in the good times people can save money, put it away for that rainy day etc.
No, we have been taxed to the hilt, our pensions have been robbed, our pay kept to 2.5% because we are told inflation must be kept low etc.
Imagine the state of the country had labour won in 1979.
No one wanted unemployment to rise in the 1980's but lets face facts it was already on the rise by 1979, Would labour have done anything about it? Possibly, but after going cap in hand (again) to the IMF for a loan and this would simply have prolonged the agony.
Q. Which party has closed most mines? A. Labour.
Unemployment was an issue in most western economies in the 1980's. Ours slowly started getting better with the simple idea of watching what the nation spent.
Labour and the Liberals both supported the ERM. Would they have acted any differently to the Tories??? The right decision was taken at the time to take us out to prevent any further damage. Had labour been in power they would have had the same decision to make.
When labour inherited the economy in 1997 it wasn't going to be difficult to manage it. Unless of course you have a government who simply spend, spend, spend without thought or consequence. And take us into an illegal war in Iraq which continue to cost billions per annum.
If Labour can't campaign on issues in Crewe they deserve to lose. But of course what are their achievements? Spin and lies.
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#45
Cameron was a 26 year old adviser to the Chancellor of the Exchequer - he was barey out of university so I think he was hardly likely to the puppet master on that one!!
Talking about the basic rate of taxation in isolation is misleading in the extreme. It is the overall tax levied on an individual which is relevant - consider the rises in NICs, or council tax. Even a dyed in the wool Labour supporter would struggle to argue that the overall level of taxation on individual has not risen significantly since 1997.
CGT is a tax that is levied at the highest marginal rate (40% under the Conservatives, 40% under Labour). FOr most long term investors the combination of indexation allowance and taper relief brought this well below 18%, down to 10%. 18% is a flat rate tax - which is to be welcomed, but to suggest that it was 40% under one government and 18% under another is highly misleading.
Not sure about the other stuff. Happy to concede that Labour have done good things since they came to power - but this whole quoting stats things to make a point is really not very useful. Few things in politics are that clear cut when you scratch beneath the surface.
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I'm not happy with the reported negative campaigning. Generally, Harriet Harman needs to develop a little more spine and Ed Ball's needs to review his attitudes but, as Frank Field commented, people have improved over the past year or so. Politics is broken but focusing on better form and not paying attention to the monkey brain fears and passions that can arise will help politicians route around these issues.
This isn't a great situation but the master strategist uses opportunities as they arise to refine and polish their own delivery. While we're on this subject, the issue of military cadets in schools is interesting but strategists may develop themselves by many means, from reading poetry to reading movies, and studying philosophy and martial arts. The Buddhist dictum, "you are what you do" has salience here.
Suzuki suggests that "selflessness makes the killing sword into a life-giving instrument of righteousness, for the man who has mastered the art does not use the sword; thus the opponent may be said to kill himself." Becoming caught up in power games twists effort in bad ways, and is something Labour could learn from.
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If the economy has been so well managed since 1997 (the date history began according to labour) why are so many people in debt? Why is the govt so much in debt? Surely in the good times people can save money, put it away for that rainy day etc.
No, we have been taxed to the hilt, our pensions have been robbed, our pay kept to 2.5% because we are told inflation must be kept low when in reality is is considerably more.
Imagine the state of the country had labour won in 1979?
No one wanted unemployment to rise in the 1980's but lets face facts it was already on the rise by 1979, Would labour have done anything about it? Possibly, but after going cap in hand (again) to the IMF for a loan and this would simply have prolonged the agony.
Q. Which party has closed most mines? A. Labour.
Unemployment was an issue in most western economies in the 1980's. Ours slowly started getting better with the simple idea of watching what the nation spent.
Labour and the Liberals both supported the ERM. Would they have acted any differently to the Tories??? The right decision was taken at the time to take us out to prevent any further damage. Had labour been in power they would have had the same decision to make.
When labour inherited the economy in 1997 it wasn't going to be difficult to manage it. Unless of course you have a government who simply spend, spend, spend without thought or consequence. And take us into an illegal war in Iraq which continue to cost billions per annum.
If Labour can't campaign on issues in Crewe they deserve to lose. But of course what are their achievements? Spin and lies.
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So whinging about who goes to what school when the whingee went to a better one..
.. yeah yeah, I know the Prime Minister never attends a by-election so he sends 80 ministers over the week end, ... "WOW, what a thrill", be awfully interested if he did show his face, you can bet it'll all be in front of selected folks if he did.
So don't blame anyone else but Labour for negative campaigning... lets face it what have they to campaign about.... can't campaign about the Conservatives having no substance when the are using their policies, the 10p tax, food and petrol prices etc etc.
This is one mess they will never spin or bribe their way out of... and it all stems from the leader and it's ministers.
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Hi Onlywayup,
We can all quote individual statistics, but it is the cumulative effect that counts. So I?ll ask you a few questions and then perhaps you?ll understand why I have abandoned my support for Labour.
a) The overall tax burden under Labour, has it gone up or down? Hint ? even Brown admits it?s up ?
b) Has the proportion of progressive taxation (as a % of the overall tax-take) increased or decreased under Labour?
Hint: The correct answer might help with question C.
c)Has social mobility increased or decreased under this GVN?
So much for ?opportunity for all?. BTW I don?t understand this association with Cameron and Black Wednesday ? He was an advisor (one of many, probably) and therefore, not the man making the decisions.
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Just listened (in part) to a discussion on Radio 5, where the bloke portraying himself as working class was quite happy to agree that what he felt about "Toffs" was prejudice, but that it was "harmless prejudice" and "we're all allowed a bit of harmless prejudice aren't we?"
Anyone here think prejudice is harmless?
They also discussed why the Labour party was allowing this sort of prejudiced campaign, and the answer given was that a calculation had been done that stirring up anger against the Toffs would get the Labour vote out more than anything else.
I thought using prejudice to stir up hatred and get votes was what the BNP did. Its certainly what the BNP gets accused of doing in every election. Now we see our government doing exactly the same.
On another point, Onlywayup, nooneis denying that Cameron was an advisor to Norman Lamont. However, when you say that
"David Cameron plunged UK into the biggest recession on record. . .
gave us 16% interest rates, third world countries NHS, and over 3.5 million unemployed . . .Cameron masterminded September 1992 FIASCO"
then you are clearly saying he was personally responsible for it all. The reality is he was one of a number of advisors, not the evil mastermind sat stroking his cat in his volcanic lair. And, as has been pointed out above, noone (including TB and GB) opposed going in to the ERM at the time.
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True income tax is just 20%, but a month ago income tax was 22% (reduced as a bribe to the electorate. You might want to see what has happened to National Insurance over the past decade. I think you might be surprised at how much the rate and scope of this hidden income tax has increased over the last 10 years.
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It does seem a little odd that the Tory candidate for Crewe is being attacked for being as a "Toff".
In the past, that seemed to be reserved as an implied insult to those who had aristocratic backgrounds.
I don't recall too many adverse Labour comments about "Tony Benn" who had a privileged, titled upbringing. Didn't hear too much anguish about allowing Lord Sainsbury to become a (relatively successful) minister.
Can't remember too many similar comments about Harriet Harman, the Milibands, Balls, etc, who all benefited from fairly well-endowed parents.
I have a lot of sympathy for any member of parliament, from whatever party, who has gained experience in the real world, outside the political sphere, before sitting on the benches of power.
Are the Labour party strategists now saying that it is wrong to make money (or have parents who tried to build some economic stability) before going into government?
But perfectly OK if a former "Beloved Leader" is able to splash out on £4Million homes simply as the result of becoming a Labour MP and subsequently the leader of a party "dedicated to helping the worse off"?
Of course, the late PM's wife has now written a book (for a £1Million advance) that describes the deep feelings she has for everybody - but not as deep as her desire to fill her pockets. If she had donated her fee to the range of charities which she is said to support - and had charged less for speaking at events on their behalf - I may have had some sympathy.
Like them, or hate them, the last two Tory Prime Ministers - Maggie and Major - came from fairly humble backgrounds.
The idea for a "welfare state", including the NHS, was based on ideas from William Beveridge. He was the son of a judge, educated at Charterhouse and Balliol College, Oxford. Would this Labour mob now say that his ideas should have been ditched because of his family or educational background?
What would Beveridge have made of the continued presence of Margaret Hodge in a ministerial role, after her appalling record in local government?
For goodness sake, it matters more whether someone feels the need to help a community than whether they came from a particular background.
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this would be the samr harman who on the politics show on sunday said that by MPs not handing in their receipts they could afford to pay their cleaners more.the same harman who said that only one address of an MP has to be kept secret for security reasons as they have to give their local address on the form to be an MP. she is so shallow that lady snooty is probably not wanted up in crewe.
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#54
To continue with your 4 points
"1.Gave away Britain's Sovereignty" which the Labour government has merrily continued doing ever since.
"2. Opened up the floodgates of immigration." Sorry, they've been open for a lot longer than that. Most recent flood was when the Labour government decided NOT to follow the rest of Europe insetting a limit on immigration from Poland, Romania and whoever else joined at that time, because they thought there would only be about 5000 coming!
"3.Poll tax (they loved that in Crewe)!" Granted the Poll Tax was very unpopular with some people. However, which seems the fairer of the two following systems : a) you pay local tax based on the size of your house, or b) you pay local tax based on how much of the local services you use. Is it fair that a single 59 year old pays the same local tax as a family of 7 living next door? Of course not, but they do at the moment. The biggest problems with the poll tax were that they got the initial numbers wrong, so it just looked like a tax grab, rather than a tax change, and that the people with large families who would have ended up paying more, were the ones most prepared to shout about it.
"4.Shut the pits" As I understand it the argument was that they were massively uneconomical, so they had to be reduced in number. Oh wait, that's Post Offices isn't it.
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Crying "toff", "common sense", and "libertarianism" isn't doing any of the major parties any favours. All of their claimed UPS's and partisan attitudes get in the way. This is just ego, not reality and quite, quite useless.
On the plus side, fluffing the ego does give people an opportunity to hack down the high spots. Yes, the short-term is depressing but the longer-term remains sound if people embrace a little, ahem, "joyous effort".
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#23 says "why not go for gold...."
well, if Gordon hadn't sold it all for peanuts....
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The one thing that Margaret Thatcher forgot to do when she promised to 'redistribute wealth' was to actually redistribute any wealth to Crewe.
Yes! She did redistribute wealth BUT it was FROM the working classes in Crewe TO the upper classes in Eton!
A tad unworthy of Dave's 'we feel your pain' Conservatives, don't you think?
Also, Margaret Thatcher, a greengrocer's daughter if ever there was one, went on a quest to 're-build Great Britain'!
The one thing she forgot to do, however, was to actually rebuild anything! One can be forgiven for overlooking such a minor plank in one's election strategy.
Oh, yes! The class war is alive and well.
The South gained at the expense of our friends in the North (Crewe and Nantwich).
One thing that Thatcher did build though was 'The Tunnel'. Was this in anticipation of a mass exodus from war ravaged, rioting Great Britain, or was it a neccessary exit clause of 'Conservative Values' and mass Immigration from the floodgates of Europe.
'A short sharp shock' delivered by a militarised police force to a rioting poll taxed public defending an innocent Union of Mineworkers.
Thatcher and her Lieutenant General, John Major stuck the boot into Great British Public with their cries of "There is no such thing as society!"
Yes there is and it is in Crewe and they haven't forgot what a Tory actually is, even if one happens to pass the railway station dressed as an ordinary member of the public.
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#68 - GaryElsby
A lot of talk about "the people of Crewe". Be interesting to see after the election whether you have your finger on the pulse as much as your post suggests.
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That is the one thing that can justifiably be laid at Thatcher's doorstep - the destruction of "society".
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#68
"Redistribution of wealth" - not to mention supporting hard working families ?
Labour can be proud. Look how well the Blairs have done.
New Labour ----> New Toffs
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68
What a load of nonsense Gary. And I wll be delighted when the voters of Crewe and Nantwich give their verdict on Labour's apalling campaign. It looks increasingy likely that Labour might get pushed into third place ;)
Your candidate has just made the incredible statement "?I am just a single, unemployed mother of five fighting hard for a job?
Yeah my eye she is// whose tending the six acres whilst she is away Gary>????
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1992 September.
Fact: Lamont kept coming out of No.11 to tell us that Sterling was strong, gaining in value and that interest rates will be going down.
Fact: Sterling was loosing in value. Everyone including foreign Banks were disposing of Sterling because they did not believe Lamont when he kept saying that the UK economy was strong and that this is a short term problem.
Fact: Sterling lost nearly all it's value even though interest rates went up to 16%. The economy had structural problems because the Tory Govt. was living beyond it's means for a very long time, and National Debt went up to 59% of GDP.
Fact: The BOE lost billions trying to persuade the world that the UK economy was strong.
Fact: We were buying our own currency that no one wanted and that?s after 12 years of Tory Govts.
Fact: DAVID CAMEON is responsible because he was the MAIN advisor to Lamont and in actual fact he was advising Lamont what to say to the media.
Fact: The strategy of lies and deceit did not work.
Fact: The Tories took us into the ERM with a view to eventually join the Euro and signed us for the Mastricht Treaty WITHOUT a referendum.
Fact: Not only did the Tories not save a penny for the coffers when the going was good, but left us without a roof on our heads, literally.
Fact: Some say that Cameron was still a young lad in them days. Then he should not have been pretentious enough to advise and bring down the value of Sterling to nil!
Nick, next time you interview Cameron, it would be very interesting if one asks him and Lamont to give us a resume of what had actually happened in those shameful days. It would be very interesting to see who points the finger.
Why does an ex Tory never forgets? Thanks and good night Nick.
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67@ laugh on, lets put this gold nonsense to rest once and for all.
When Gordon Brown sold the gold reserves off what was his reason for doing so?
What was the price of a troy ounce of gold at the time?
What did he purchase to hold in reserve to take the place of gold?
What was his reason for selling gold?.
And what yield was the return on the investment he made?
Which was the better investement of the tow investments.
last but not least would you have mentioned this had you not been parroting others.
Do you understand the implications of the sale?
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@58.
Something that surprised me but as a follow-on to who closed the most mines - Labour, here's something that surprised me greatly.
Which party funded and built the most Council houses - Conservative.
Now that did surprise me and before any New Labourite goes off on one, it was a high-ranking New Labour MP who told me, when he was going at great lengths to explain why "New Labour was the party of property ownership not property rental and never again would the working class be faced with a life of living in cheap rented accommodation."
He's quite right of course, New Labour has ended up forcing the working class to live in expensive private rented accommodation with fewer rights and protection.
And he was actually proud of what he was saying. Moron.
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71 A young fellow becoming an MP who was very much a gentleman started out with nothing.
A few years down the line he was a Millionaire, he owned 2 yachts worth millions and a piano worth a small fortune.
As his only real job was ever politics and it was in the days when millionaires were few and far between.
He was certainly not born into wealth and it was usual in those days for wills to be published, so therefore had he inherited cash it would have been published and put to print.
There was never any mention of him inheriting cash.
Now that person was Sir Edward Heath.
Only Jocking how do you explain that one away?
Tony Blair was PM for 10 years his wife like her or not is a judge, they have combined incomes.
it is easy to see where their cash came from where do you suppose Sir Edward Heaths cash came from he was not PM very long and he was a single man with nowhere near the earning capacity of Cherie Blair?
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Rather than wasting energy arguing the toss about the tax take by HMG, might I suggest that interested posters simply take a look at a nice little graph on the Adam Smith Institute (ASI) website.
It shows Tax Freedom Day from 1963-2008.
The ASI will of course, interpret it in a certain way but nevertheless it remains a useful guide.
My own conclusion from viewing the chart is that you are still mostly peasants, certainly if you're a 'bog-standard employee', and are working almost as much for the Government as for your employer!
A rum do indeed.
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#54
What did she (Thatcher) do for Crewe?
1.Gave away Britain's Sovereignty
2. Opened up the floodgates of immigration.
3.Poll tax (they loved that in Crewe)!
4.Shut the pits
1. Gave away Britain's Sovereignty
In the light of the recent debacle with the Lisbon Treaty and McBroon signing away more powers to the EU. Ask him why he did not give you a voice in the promised referendum.
2. Opened up the floodgates of immigration.
Surprised at this one ? Especially from NuLabour. They have not even got a clue about the number of illegal immigrants in GB. Under NuLabour we do not even have a foreign/home office fit for purpose ? their words not mine. Even when it comes to staff they employ!
3. Poll tax (they loved that in Crewe)!
NuLabour have used national and local taxes with gusto. Tax today is McBroons equivalent to Thatchers Poll Tax. NuLabour tax the poor and give it to the rich. The wealth gap is the widest its been for forty years!
4. Shut the pits
The Labour Party sat on the fence when it came to that fight. That was left to local activists. In hindsight possibly Thatcher was right. Once global fossil fuel resources are depleted GB is sat on an island of coal. That is unless McBroon has not flogged that off as well.
The relevant question in todays world is ? Blair/Brown what have they done for Britain?
By the way two jags prescott had four houses.
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74
Yes I do, it was an appalling decision, taken I understand against advice given, and has cost the country countless billions.
A huge error IMHO.
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79 can you expand on that and we will conduct a debate.
I have asked a number of questions I would like very much to hear your answer and not the stock Conservative one.
The proper answer chapter and verse.
Should not be too hard for a clever person like you who understands finance and stock-markets should it?
Perhaps you can show me putting your money where the proverbial is.
Go on take your best shot.
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79.
Why was it an appalling decision because other people told you so?
Please explain in detail.
Who gave the advice and why?
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The Tories are, 'ready for Government'?
How do we know this? Is it because their current leader, David Cameron (No.4 or is it 5?) has been in the job a little longer than usual?
Once the dust settled in a 'class war of divided Great Britain', the Tories went on to kill itself.
They dumped any leader they could get their hands on!
When Labour came along and promised the Country they would 're-build Great Britain', then it was obvious to allthat 'Things could only get better'!
And so it has and Crewe and Nantwich has been in on this all the way.
Brand new HOSPITALS, SCHOOLS and NURSERY'S.
85,000 NURSES
32,000 DOCTORS
RECORD NHS FUNDING
TAX CREDITS
PENSION CREDITS
600,000 OUT OF POVERTY
EXTRA CHILD BENEFIT
WINTER FUEL PAYMENTS
FREE TRAVEL
BANNED FOX HUNTING (get in there!)
MILLION PENSIONERS OUT OF TORYPOVERTY
FREE TV LICENSES
BEST EVER EDUCATION RESULTS
RECORD STUDENTS IN HIGHER EDUCATION
Where were the Tories when this was going on?
They were at Eton (full board and lodgings)
practising to be 'working class' and the 'heir to Blair'.
Oh, how they laughed in Crewe and Nantwich!
Dave says: This is another fine mess you've gotten me into, Gideon!
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Mmmm # 45, no-one has said that Cameron wasn't an adviser to Lamont, only that he wasn't half as important as you keep on trying to make out he was. So no-one is being untruthful. I'm pleased you're paying less tax, since when Thatcher took over from Healey, the top rate was 83% and basic rate at 35%. Your later post at #73 is in similar vein. The Bank of England spent £3.4 billion defending sterling against speculator attacks, ie less than has been lost in the Labour Government's tax credit fiasco, let alone the amount that has been wasted on everything else that has gone wrong since. In point of fact, freed from the constraints of the ERM the UK economy then turned around with falling inflation, falling interest rates and lower unemployment. No-one believes everything was all roses in the garden in the early 1990s - it wasn't and neither was it under Callaghan or Healey, and it most certainly would never have been under Michael Foot (whose manifesto was conventionally known as the longest suicide note in history) - but to misquote or make unfair comparisons is not helpful.
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So shutting the pits was classic piece of Conservative judgement, was it?
Try telling that one to the people of Crewe and Nantwich when they get their gas and electric bill!
The Tories paid so much into the Nuclear industry, that Miners could have stayed at home, produced no coal and get paid full pay and holiday pay and still make a profit if they had recieved such a subsidy!
That cost us dearly.
It has cost us cheap energy that European coal producing Countries now enjoy.
The Tories goofed and we all now know it.
They are an economic nightmare that is best served from the subs bench of politics.
There is no room in this Country for a Political Party that has only one desire and that is to destroy a society that is seeking Social Justice for all.
The people of Crewe and Nantwich know full well who has best served them and who is best serving them and it's not the guys who employ butlers, go sledging and ride a bicycle in front of a 4x4 carrying a spare shirt!
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This discussion is truly bizarre:
False statistics being thrown around
Pointless and baseless attacks
and most - if not all - of them are from Labour supporters.
They are trying to fight battles long since concluded with tactics that are beyond nasty.
I will enjoy Thursday night/Friday morning - I doubt they will
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dustintime@17 Have you a crystal ball by any chance?
A week is a long time in politics.
What makes you so certain Labour are going to loose?
Now as it happens I am not sure of the outcome I just hope people come to their senses but no matter just take this one on board.
That seat would revert to it's natural home if lost at this by election at a GE.
People are not voting for Cameron they will be voting against Brown a world of difference.
Last but not least since the last GE the Tories are two seats down. they have had one defection to Labour and another to UKIP.
So if Labour looses this seat then they are back where they started after the last GE. they still have a big working majority, bet you did not think of that one did you?
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It's all pretty disgusting. The whole Democratic campaigning of late has shown the ugly side of people desperate for power who pitch fear rather than policy - now that it has spread to our own government means that they have lost all sense of decency and ultimately the trust of the people. They should go - sooner the better!
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Terryno 2.@83 can you please expand on that remark where did the 3.4 billion come into the equasion?
What was this money specifically spent on?
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85# simonoxford. put up the false statisitics and we will clarify then for you if you are so ceratin they are there!
Then perhaps you can contradict them
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Many people seem to talking about who did what in the past. Does that really matter now?
The reason Labour are in this mess is because of what has happened since Tony Blair left office - having been pushed out by Gordon Brown (remember the 'almost coup' the year before while he was on holiday?)
People understood Brown's frustration, or at least were prepared to believe he wasn't really a back-stabbing ruthless plotter but was itching to show the country how much better he could do the job. He promised change, a new openness, a big-tent, a new dawn, etc, etc. We know he likes to talk (Neil Kinnock come back, all is forgiven) but people got the message about the change that he promised.
He was well received and Labour went up in the opinion polls.
What happened next, as we all know, is that he made a complete balls of it. He started by playing games about the date of the next election, denied it when he was found out. This was swiftly followed by a series of further blunders and compounded by government department errors, including the massive losses of people's personal information (which, as expected has had no influence on his plan to build the world's biggest database of our personal information). I won't bother mentioning all the others.
Regardless of what went on before, this is why Labour are currently in trouble. Whatever Brown's intention, he has not brought the new kind of politics - or anything new, that I can see - he promised, and people have lost faith in him. Now people remember 'Well, I wasn't too happy with Labour when Blair was there..' and this seems the last straw.
Had he had the courage to 'do the decent thing' when Blair left - or had the patience and confidence to let him finish his term - he would have gone to the country to get his own mandate to take over. He has come in by the back door, he will no doubt stay as long as he can but he has lost his authority. The government is being run by the backbenchers, who have to deal with the real world, and he is in his bunker wondering how he can get out of this mess.
Call for Hazel Blears or Harriet Harman? What other big hitters are there? Oh yes, Alastair Darling. "Come on, Alastair, get on News24 and explain to people why they've got it all wrong about me."
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Timpson's family made their money making and mending shoes. I wonder what "working class" trades, jobs or backgrounds those obnoxious young activists - or their Labour masters - can boast?
I suspect Timpson is far more in touch with reality than they are.
And it's a bit rich for the Labour party to accuse anyone else of being a con man. I trust the assortment of Labour ministers and MPs being paraded through Crewe will help remind the voters where the real sleaze and dishonesty lies.
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#84 - GaryElsby
I think there are about 70,000 - 75,000 eligible voters in Crewe and Nantwich. Now maybe I'm wrong and you've been busy, but I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that you haven't quite had time to speak to every single one of them. On the off chance that I'm right on that, how about re-phrasing some of your posts as being your opinion rather than that of "the people of Crewe and Nantwich"....
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regarding the gold stuff
I don't know much about this. I think Gordon Brown sold off about 300 - 400 tonnes of gold to buy currencies (dollar, yen, euro), and that this was supposed to diversify the nation's portfolio of investments. But that's about it. Would anyone be able to suggest a place where I can get some impartial history of this so I can draw my own conclusions? Grateful to be pointed in the right direction.
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I am only repeating what I have seen written by many serious political and financial journalists, who know their stuff. In any even to sell gold at $200 dollars when its now $1000 dollars or thereabouts, hardly smacks of the best decision ever, irrepective of the benefit of hindsight.
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regarding gold again...
okay done a little more digging. And think I understand what went on. The timing semed to be poor and it may have been better to phase the sale over a longer period, but these are long term investment decisions - they should not be judged over a holding period of less than ten years. To be putting numbers on this is media sensationalism as they will change massively from year to year. What is important is the strategic allocation of assets. The nation was overweight in one asset class when the sale took place - the sale created a more sound diversification of assets. No one can predict which asset class will perform best over short holding periods - and in my opinion a debate based on such a short term assessment is just plain unproductive.
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94# Now there lies the problem you are repeating what political and financial journalists are saying and not listening to the person who really knows chapter and verse what actually happened, that person is Gordon Brown.
Now I can only half scold you for this because if Brown had have stated his reasons for what he did and why he did it perhaps people would be more informed and less inclined to think they know what happened and why, instead of being certain of what happened and the reasons for it.
At least you were honest with your admission unlike some.
It is easy to come out with these statement and people get away with these throw away tactics until they are challenged.
That seems to have been the problem on this site people have been able to say what they like without anybody challenging it.
Sorry to tell you there are now Labour people joining this site now who will query these things and they do know what they are talking about.
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Off topic I know, but having read through a number of the blogs I'm finding kiwilegs posts increasingly bizarre. It seems that he is taking it upon himself to be a mod and constantly challenging other posters while often leaving himself wide open to criticism. I'm on here to give myself a broader view of events from a number of different viewpoints - I believe that trying to use the forum as a debating shop to downplay/criticise/knock other peoples opinions is missing the point. Log on, say what you think, get it off your chest and leave it at that.
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97 #
Kiwilegs is a 70+ year old lady.
Can you please point out to me where my bizarre post are and why you think them so?
Those are my opinions quite open to challenge if you care to do so.
Please what am I leaving myself wide open to?
A full explanation would certainly be appreciated.
I do not downplay anybody's opinions where I disagree with them I challenge.
Where have I knocked somebody elses opinion? Challenged certainly knocked never, but feel free to try your best shot.
Point out exactly where I have missed the point.
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96 (Kiwilegs)
And there you have the rub. Gordo thinks he is so clever that he doesn't need to explain to the dumb wits who are the electorate , why he did what he did, neither then or now.
Sadly for Gordon, since he became PM , he has presided over presentational disasters of enormous magnitude(please dont ask me to list them, but I will if you insist), that past decisions whether right or wrong are laid at his door.
It may well be that things looked rosy at the time Gordon sold a significant proportion of our gold reserves, but politically and financially it was disastrous, irrespective of what the climate was at the time.
I have to say, that I am speaking from the perspective of someone who wouldn't buy a used car from Gordon. He has been so deceitful and duplicitous (IMHO), I cannot wait for the electorate to give him his P45.
If the Inland Revenue Computers break down for any reason, I would be delighted to write out a manual one for him.
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It is sad that the campaign is negative, but a bit rich that the Tories complain, over the years they have been the masters of negative campaigning, portraying Tony Blair as Satan!!!!
It is a difficult time for Labour now. There only refernce for comparison to the Tories is their last term in office, as this becomes further in the past it becomes less (but not totally) irrelevant. Cameron does have a record there and it wasn't good.
The only other possibillity is to compare on policy for now and the future and slim pickings there too cos the silence is deafening. Even on the 10p question Cameron couldn't answer the straight question as to his party's policy when put three times (by a supporter) in Crewe, well covered by the media. And Finally on boards like tis and Have your Say the responders are so overwhelmingly right wing its like a colony of Daily Mail Columnists have taken over the place. A Tory Feeding Frenzy is taking place and are they ravenous?
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Ego and agendas are cluttering the place up. Most of it is wind with the occasional nasty edge. Comment is useful but arguing is a waste of time. Nobody wins anything and they just end up looking an ass. The topic itself should give people a clue.
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95 #except the Euro has outperformed the price for troy ounces of gold by a huge margin.
Too many eggs were being held in the one basket and Brown needed to diversify and succeeded, he did also say that this should have happened but did not years before.
The gold was lying dormant not attracting capital.
At last, Eureka some are beginning to see the light.
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I'm in Northern Ireland so was not able to vote Mr Brown into office - then again no one else did either.
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kiwilegs said...
The gold was lying dormant not attracting capital.
Thats why it was called our RESERVES.
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99# see the explanation I have given @ 102 then see if you can argue with it.
I would enjoy a good debate about this subjest.
Care to take your best shot?
As for the inland revenue remark can you explain to me why Alan Goldspan who had served 3 USA Presidents as the Chairman of the Federal Bank who kept the American economy in good shape during his long spell in office thinks so highly of Brown?
With friend like him Brown will never be short of a job.
Bear in mind Brownis also highly respected inside of the G8.
These people do not muck about with dummies they are world leaders.
I wonder what Goldspans opinion of Gideon Osborne is.
But please feel free to contradict why don't you.
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#97 - not so sure. People expressing different viewpoints and questioning my posts may not alter my opinion, but it may make me re-examine my beliefs and opinions - and I welcome that. It does all fall down a bit when it turns into a slanging match between one or two people (but I'd rather run the risk of that happening than have no debate at all).
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102 Thats argument is only conceivably valid if you still have the money..(and we dont.... Gordo spent it and billions more) and I'm not convinced it is valid. The euro was about 1.70 to the pound, now its 1.25 ish, Gold had quadrupled plus a bit more. I dont think the graphs are similar somehow?
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103# Nobody elected John Major either and whatsmore nobody had heard of the grey man prior to his spectacular rise.
Everybody knew Brown would take over from Blair and he has been on the political scene for donkey's years.
Last but not least it is the Party that the electorate of this Country votes into office not the person always has been and nobody has suggested changing it for anything different as of yet.
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This is noticeable but competive behaviour leads to punches and kicks. Most are probably not Tory supporters but in it for the razzle dazzle. This is failed state territory but the superior man guards their own thoughts and attitudes.
By letting arrows pass through like you are made of smoke they become harmless. By remaining properly focused, sensitive, and patient success arises in its own time. No need to rush, panic, or posture. Stay easy and the enemy kill themselves.
Labour politicians have given into temptation and their karma has backfired in their face. Their inner fear of losing drives clinging to illusory success. By embracing death one sidesteps all this and life arises. Presto. No effort required.
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103# Someone else that doesn't understand our democracy! How many times have I seen on debates such as this that GB isn't elected. There has NEVER been an elected PM in this country just MPs some of whom are Party Leaders. The ignorance (no offence) is appaling sometimes OR its a front for stirring up negative hysteria.
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104# fat lot of good the gold is doing lying dormant, it needs to attract capital and interest.
There is an economy to run. Is this Gideon Osborne's take on things to come, what a joke!
Typical Tory thinking, if it des not move leave it doing nothing.
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It's ironic really, here we have a Labour candidate denouncing the Conservatives in time honoured fashion i.e. Labour for the Poor, Tories for the Rich.
Now we have a Labour Government doing a U Turn after making the poor poorer and not a hint of the word that was, until Labour and the Trade Unions were 'professionlised', unheard of except with regard to the Conservatives... Nepotism.
And they wonder why traditional Labour voters are deserting them?
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107#
The price of gold has only being going up for just under a year it was down to £10 per troy ounce.
Whereas the Euro started to perform a whole lot earlier.
Check your facts.
It took years for gold to get to the price it is now.
What did you wish Brown to do bury his head in the sand and hope it would get better or take positive action?
Do not forget we are talking about years here not months and it took a lot of years for the price of gold to rise..
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#104 - sorry, no. He sold one asset and replaced it with another. He did this to diversify the nation's holdings. Proivded that the asset purchased fulfilled the risk profile which was required to keep the overall portfolio balanced then it is unfair to level this as a criticism. You could of course choose to criticise the implementation of this decision, but that's easy in a post 9-11 world with a weak dollar entering recession (which is when gold prices will be at or near their highest as investors without a long term perspective flee equities for what they consider to be "safer" investments.
If your reserves don't grow inflation destroys them and you're left holding a worthless asset. My guess is that Brown and his advisers would know enough about investment theory not to sell gold because they wanted a higher return from bond investments - they will have done it to strategically re-balance the portfolio.
I'm no fan of Mr Brown, but I know a fair bit about investment theory and I can see when an argument on this topic is misplaced.
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110# sadly it is borne from sheer ignorance of the facts.
You would think people would hold their tongues until they were sure, the ill informed usually jump in with both feet, then they learn the hard way.
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#84.
So shutting the pits was classic piece of Conservative judgement, was it?
Try telling that one to the people of Crewe and Nantwich when they get their gas and electric bill!
Which part of Labour sat on the fence when the miners were on strike did you not understand. It was left to individual activists to support them - I know I was one of them.
One of the most important events and Labour sat on the fence. Any betrayal is down to Labour!
One surprise on this blog is that NuLabour have dropped the - ITS NOT OUR FAULT ITS A GLOBAL EVENT.
But there again the people of Britain know full well were to put the blame. I to can?t wait for Friday morning. As one previous poster pointed out NuLabour spin doctors are now working hard - Its called Damage Limitations! NuLabour should get used to it!
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110
Someone else that doesn't understand our democracy! How many times have I seen on debates such as this that GB isn't elected. There has NEVER been an elected PM in this country just MPs some of whom are Party Leaders. The ignorance (no offence) is appaling sometimes OR its a front for stirring up negative hysteria.
I apologise I must have missed the Labour Party leadership election - when was it again?
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No one seems to listen to anyone on here.
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#117 - er, there was a leadership contest according to the party rules. no one chose to stand against him. All above board.
Again, I'm no fan of Mr Brown. But he can hardly be blamed for no one within his party choosing to stand against him.
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"There has NEVER been an elected PM in this country just MPs some of whom are Party Leaders."
I think most people are aware of that - don't get hysterical, we might be mad but we're not stupid.
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114.
Wrong the price of gold was dormant for years.
The Euro took sometime to take off but it certainly outperformed the price of gold.Thus yielding higher dividends and returns.
I have a son and daughter who are chartered accountants and auditors (not neccessary Labour supporters thay make up their own minds)the information is gathered from them. They sport out a lot of tax returns and understand the working of the system very well.
It is less than a year since the price of gold was £10 per troy ounce.
The Euro has been steady not against the pound or dollar granted but against the price of gold. Plus the fact there was too much in reserve all was not sold.
No good lying dormant it has to accumulate interest.
Check the facts.
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117 #You never missed it because none took place Gordon Brown was elected unopposed.
Good night god bless!
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Height of stupidity to keep all the eggs in one basket as the gold was.
We do not do that with our own finances so why do it with the UK finances?
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120# Don't mistake frustration at ignorance of the facts as hysteria. Frankly there are people on here who could well be stupid (your word) as well as mad (I'm assuming anger rather than insanity) but thats only an opinion
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#121 - maybe, however I'd still suggest that diversification was his primary driver. To sell becuase you think an asset class is doing badly is to misunderstand one of the key tenents of investment theory. If your portfolio is balanced properly you only sell because one of your assets is doing spectacularly well - otherwise you spend your life buying high and selling low. To sell this much gold the primary driver must have been to create better balance within the portfolio. Of course if he didn't understand investment theory then he may have sold to chase short term returns - but as I said before, I think he and his advisers would have known better than this.
I only come back to this point becuase I am an investment professional with many years of experience of building and preserving wealth through investment for my clients (many of whom are accountants!).
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Take it back to the year the gold was sold.
The price of gold lay dormant, nowhere near what it is at todays prices.
Compare it with the Euro as it was then, the Euro made a steady sloward move upwards and it has sustained it.
When GB sold the reserves the Euro rose in value whereas gold practically stayed still.
Even at todays exchange rates the Euro is soaring against the Pound.
The gold is higher now than it was say a year ago but by no stretch of the imagination can one claim it is soaring.
The Euro was and still is a good buy.
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#124 - I only mentioned it because you talked about stirring up 'negative hysteria'. I wasn't being personal.
But I think your comments, while technical true, are not the whole story. I do, in fact, think we elect a leader as well when we vote a party in. Could you imagine voting for a leaderless party. Or what if Ken Dodd was the Labour leader, would people ignore that as they thought the party was so great? (although he is a better comedian that some of the MPs we've got now)
(It's great to be an armchair critic, isn't it?)
But just because there have been a few occasions when 'the leader' has resigned and passed the job on to 'the deputy' (can you do that in 'real life'? I'm sure there must be a few equal opportunity laws that say you can't) it doesn't mean it is right, or that people support it.
I'm not arguing with you here - your comments made me think about it and it's an important issue - and one of the reasons that Gordon Brown lacks authority, I think, because he can't claim he won an election with him standing as leader.
Do other people think it matters that he hasn't been 'elected' by the country?
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#126 - I don't disagree. I'm just stating that rebalancing the portfolio would be the primary driver. This explanation remains valid regardless of the respective prices of gold, the euro, or any other asset class at any one point in time.
The notion of replacing one low volatility asset class with another low volatility asset class based on the assumption that the other will provide you with an enhanced yield over the longer term is both flawed and dangerous. I'm giving Brown more credit than that!
For reference - Fama, French, Malkiel, Sharpe, Markowitz, etc.
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128#
From what I am led to believe by those who know more about the subject than myself.
Brown decided that the Euro at the time was at such a low price that the only way it would go would be up.
I am told it was a shrewd move at the time which has definately paid off.
I am also informed that he was shrewd enough to realise that the price of Gold at the time along with Copper was going nowhere.
The gamble paid off both Copper which he did not bother with and Gold stagnated now both Gold and Copper are rising steeply.
It was the long term investment that really paid off.
As an aside they also inform me that no politician cum chancellor that enjoys the opinion that Alan Goldspan does of Brown is a dummy. They say that Osborne could never hold a candle to him.
Plus Brown has been sorely underestimated by a sceptical press and ridiculed by a public that does not realise how well this economy has been handled over the last 10 years.
goodnight
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127 # we have a joker trying his hardest to get into Downing Street and quite honestly if it was a toss up between Cameron and Ken Dodd my money would be on Ken Dodd.
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127# I take your point but does that mean that if a PM resigns (or dies in office) there must be an election even if only half way through a term that the party has been elected to serve based on their manifesto?
Its a mute point cos no party will ever do that in these circumstances unless to their political advantage. It just grates that people "bay" for this when their party didn't and wouldn't do so in the same circumstanes. Similarly we see Cameron currently criticising every government decision, Northern Rock being a good example without ever offering an alternative.
People should bare in mind that the Tories are HM Offiicial opposition, there Shadow Ministers get paid extra for their portfolios and with that they like the government have some responsibility to the tax payer to say what their policies or alternative solutions would be, frustratingly they do no such thing so people go back to their past record. It is a a political tactic, no more no less so all the scrutiny falls on the Government, leaving the largely right wing media, particularly the print media with nothing to do but print reactionary right wing propoganda and the mostly neutral BBC with nothing to analyse or scrutinise.
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#129
If the euro crashed in a year's time and the value of gold was still rising then, according to line you are taking, one year from now it would have to be seen as a terrible decision to have sold the gold. But on the other hand, if gold plummets and the euro continues to rise then it would have to be seen as a brilliant decision. Based solely on the rising value argument, if I looked carefully over the last 5-6 years I could probably pinpoint a number of days when it made perfect sense to sell the gold, and a number of days when it would have made perfect sense to keep it.
Investment does not have to be about gambling on whether asset classes fall or rise in the future. It should and can be more scientific than that. If Brown sold to rebalance the nation's portfolio then now, one year from now and ten years from now that is a sensible, defendable and sustainable position - regardless of what the respective values of gold or the euro might be at the time.
A book you might enjoy is "A Random Walk down Wall Street" by Burton Malkiel. The first 100 - 150 pages is a history of investing that debunks many myths peddled by the financial press and belived by much of the public. There is no need to go beyond the history to understand the fundamental points. If you choose to read it you'll never use the words "gambling" and "investment" in the same sentence. And if you have any money put by the introduction could prove both enlightening and a huge relief (to find out that there is "another way").
Gambling is for speculators, and has no place in a long term investment strategy. If Alan Greenspan was judging Gordon Brown on his understanding of this, then I'm not surprised he rates him highly.
Sorry to bang on. As I said, it is what I do for a living, so I can get quite evangelical about it.
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Her website has also described her as a single unemployed mother of five just looking for a job.
No mention of the large house in North Wales and the fact that she is unemployed because she was booted out of the Welsh assembly having lost to a conservative candidate.
Maybe that explains the vileness of her campaign but it certainly seems to be backfiring in spectacular fashion.
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The title of this thread is 'Negative campaigning.' It seems to have descended into a party political broadcast by the supporters of the 2 main parties encompassing everything from The Thatcher Years to the selling of gold. I'm so glad I upped sticks and moved to the main HYS forum.
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Open discussion: (I know there's a parallel universe talking about whether GB melted down the gold and sold it to Rupert Murdock or someone) but "If a PM resigns (or dies in office) should there be an election even if only half way through a term that the party has been elected to serve based on their manifesto?"
This sounds like a good excuse to 'do a Gordon', i.e., set up an enquiry.
If I had to make recommendations, I'd say:
There SHOULD NOT be an election if the person who resigned or died was:
A. Sober
B. Not conspired against/murdered, etc
C. Isn't called Tony.
And there SHOULD be an election if the person who resigned or died was:
A. Smiling too much
B. Conspired with others to fool the public.
C. Is called Tony.
Something along those lines. What do you think?
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When I read some of the rabid right on here be-moaning Labour spin and negativity I think I must be living in a parallel universe.
What do people think Cameron has been doing for the last 10 months. PMQ's is all about personal attacks on the Prime Minister. It is always baseless, infantile and most importantly downright nasty.
When it comes to spin read Cameron's speech today. Dangling the golden carrot of tax cuts if he wins the next General Election. Where will the money come from? He has already pledged to maintain Labour's spending plans. If he is going to renege on this what services is he going to cut?
He surely can't be advocating increasing the PSBR given the slating he gave Brown for the 10p rate compensation package of last week!
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(As an aside, I've never understood why an opposition party would agree to keeping to the spending plans of a government it thinks is useless and incompetitent anyway. Oh, hang on, a lightblub just came on, it's a signal to big business that 'the contracts will be honoured' so they don't need to vote against them. Or am I being cynical again?)
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#137
(As an aside, I've never understood why an opposition party would agree to keeping to the spending plans of a government it thinks is useless and incompetitent anyway. Oh, hang on, a lightblub just came on, it's a signal to big business that 'the contracts will be honoured' so they don't need to vote against them. Or am I being cynical again?)
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For some time prior to the 1997 election NuLabour, in opposition, indeed accused the then Tory government of being useless and incompetent then when they came to power adopted the Tory budget for their first two years in power.
Don?t think many people would accuse you of being cynical Bryan, I think stupid is the word you were looking for.
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In commenting on an analysis of A Random Walk Through Wall Street, Peter Coy of Business Week comments: "Lo says that day traders tend to overreact to news--whether that news is positive or negative - so it should be possible to profit by taking the opposite side of their trades."
People don't always know things and things change, and that's where people slide in and try and increase their power, status, or wealth capital. The Doaist/Buddhist/Stoic view is that lies and partisan attitudes go nowhere. The short-term seratonin buzz is equally useless in the attention economy.
Thanks for the heads up. I've just grabbed an abstract of A Random Walk Through Wall Street. I'm a big fan of Drucker and Ogilvy, and I note that Warren Buffet is moving heavily into Europe. The wind is changing and, I believe, all this froth is just a short-term reaction to that. No-problemo.
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Ministers are to consider plans for a database of electronic information holding details of every phone call and e-mail sent in the UK, it has emerged.
The plans, reported in the Times, are at an early stage and may be included in the draft Communications Bill later this year, the Home Office confirmed.
A Home Office spokesman said the data is a "crucial tool" for protecting national security and prevent crime.
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Talk about chickens coming home to roost.
I would haphazard a guess the McBroon is definitely on his way out!
Coming on top of what has happened over recent weeks, I predict that this is will be the news that buries NuLabour!
Timing is also perfect as well regarding Crewe and Nantwich by-election.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
peteholly wrote:
"Dangling the golden carrot of tax cuts if he wins the next General Election. Where will the money come from?"
As soon as they are elected they will have to study the books and will no doubt find that all the money has been spent. The only way they could conceivably afford cuts is to trim down waste possibly by reversing money gobbling initiatives that simply haven't worked. The sad aspect of the last few decades is that billions has been thrown at The Public Services with limited accountabilty and much of it has simply disappeared down a black hole. In other word the sentiments were right but the application was flawed.
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As far as I know (and I've checked newspaper archives here) the problem wasn't so much that he sold the gold, it was that he told everyone he was going to sell the gold well in advance, letting them know the market would be flooded and actually driving the price down.
He also did it against the advice he was given, and without getting the advice of the BoE, and then claimed it had all been done with the full support and technical advice of the BoE.
Papers released years later under FoI requests show that the BoE was not consulted.
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Kiwilegs,
A bit tired of your constant picking. If you have a point make it otherwise leave us to ours.
It seems very easy for you ask the questions but very difficult to actually back up anything you claim. In fact you simply seem to ignore any comment or opinion that doesn't suit you argument.
Perhaps you'd be better off on the HYS forums rather than on here simply poluting the comments section.
Oh and if you're a 70+ old lady then I'm Gordon Brown!
(Hang on I think I am being a bit hypocritical here...I'll be off now.)
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Lets spare a thought for the overprivileged. in our society. The poor things are suffering from severe prejudice at the moment. Its one thing to call someone working class a chav, they deserve it. Its their own fault for not being born to wealthy middle class parents. They should have tried harder.
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It looks very much like the hard nosed Conservative Party by Election war machine is hard at work in here.
They talk Thatcher up to the hilt but never veer away from the Falklands war!
They bang on about Gordon Brown not being voted in by Party members but conveniently forget that a majority of MPs was enough. If members had a say, they would have voted the same way.
Labour members know it's tough in the wider community but it would be treacherous and treasonous to blame the new Leader for all of the situations that our Country now faces.
All we want is a Prime Minister and Leader who has backbone and steer us through these problems. We say we have that Leader and there is no talk of a replacement anywhere.
If the Tories are a worthy opponent and they continue as they have done and are doing on subjects such as immigration, then Dave Cameron should openly condemn the Margaret Thatcher leadership as alien to his own and totally detach her from his Party.
She and Major signed every pro European document put in front of them.
The 'modern' Conservative Party is a party of falsehood that refuses to stand up to its responsibility for our Country and our 'modern' economic situation in a Globalised world.
Instead, it uses semi-racist propaganda against modern immigration without acknowledging their own part played in it.
Dave Cameron and Gideon Osborne are a couple of Tory toffs who are attempting an Arthur Daley approach to the electorate of Crewe and are attempting to sell 'cut and shut' policy (ies?) that are nothing more than flip flop opportunism.
What a pair of Jokers.
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GaryElsby wrote:
"They bang on about Gordon Brown not being voted in by Party members but conveniently forget that a majority of MPs was enough. If members had a say, they would have voted the same way."
We all know he was voted in by his own party members. Not rocket science is it? I think the concern is that he as an individual missed the chance to be ratified by The People of the country!
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GaryElsby wrote:
'All we want is a Prime Minister and Leader who has backbone and steer us through these problems. We say we have that Leader and there is no talk of a replacement anywhere.;
I think you'll find there is no talk of a replacement simply because the polls say that any of the possible candidates would diminish The Labour Party support even further!
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Back at #67 i made a little off the cuff joke about selling off the gold reserves with no intention of raising any sort of intellectual debate, just a little poke at Brown in good humour.
I am amzed to see that this sparked hours of argument over the price of gold and long term investment pros and cons.
Thats the trouble with politics, no sense of humour!
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Anybody supporting Labour and worrying about Tory Toffs should dig a little into the backgounds of most of the Labour hierachy and tell me they aren't all from the upper echelons of society!
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Gary Elsby wrote:
'If the Tories are a worthy opponent and they continue as they have done and are doing on subjects such as immigration, then Dave Cameron should openly condemn the Margaret Thatcher leadership as alien to his own and totally detach her from his Party.'
The poor woman is on her last legs and about to check out. You can't blame her for the present problems although many of your cohorts on here are anxious to do so perhaps in order to deflect attention away from the present administration!
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dhwilkinson
What are you on? Chav is not a word that was created by the upper class to demean anyone else. I believe it was originally used to describe a certain style of dress (bling and burberry). When I was teaching in Portsmouth a few years ago it was simply another group of students - you had your chavs, your goths, your emos, your metallers and so on. To suggest that it is on a par with an admitted attempt to stir up hatred simply to get the vote out is stretching things a bit.
Also, why do you link wealthy with middle class. My family would probably be described as middle class, but they have never been wealthy. Usually able to cope, with some good years and some bad, but not wealthy.
Your sarcasm suggests that you think some prejudice is OK, and that telling half truths and lies (as labour are at the moment) is also OK. Don't you approve of someone whose family started their own business and were fortunate to watch it grow, who have fostered 80 children whilst doing this, who treat their workers in what can only be described as an excellent fashion, and one of whom would like the opportunity to serve the people in that area by becoming their MP.
Or maybe you prefer someone who is part of that negative campaign, who has never lived in or contributed to the area, who describes herself as struggling along as an unemployed single mum, conveniently forgetting her mansion, and the fact the she's unemployed only because she got voted out, and who has been selected primarily because of who her mother is.
Someone earlier suggested that if Labour wins in Crewe it would suggest that the early calling of the election was a brilliant tactic rather than obscene haste. I would suggest if Labour win then it would be both.
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#149
Hi Laugh_on. Sorry, I took the gold thing off on a tangent. It is something that I wanted to know more about as it has been mentioned a number of times on different threads. It all went into a bit of a parallel universe for a bit!
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GaryElsby wrote:
'Dave Cameron and Gideon Osborne are a couple of Tory toffs who are attempting an Arthur Daley approach to the electorate of Crewe and are attempting to sell 'cut and shut' policy (ies?) that are nothing more than flip flop opportunism.'
I see you support the oudated (politics of envy) class war approach to electioneering instigated by the Labour party machine in Crewe and Nantwich. Have you taken the time to investigate the background of Mrs Dunwoody's daughter and a fair few of The Cabinet. The Front Benches would be somewhat bare if you had your way and they were all jettisoned!!
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This Thursday you, the voters of the Crewe and Nantwich, have the chance to give your verdict on New Labour. You have plenty of choice; let's hope it doesn't include the heir presumptive!
In the last 11 years we have laboured with higher taxation (with stealth taxes), a doubling of Council Tax, pillaging of pension funds to the tune of £5 billion per year, tax credits with clawback, increasingly complex, cumbersome and unwieldy systems of tax and benefits, more meddlesome, bureaucratic, expensive and intrusive government, and more categories of fines than you can imagine.
Increasingly we are spied upon, but the data collected is insecure. The level of illiteracy amongst 11-year old remains stubbornly high - a betrayed generation.
If the apparatus of government were competent like the STASI or Gestapo, we would have grounds for trepidation. However, that will come in time.
Under our "prudent" former Chancellor and present Prime Minister (in name only in my opinion), we have witnessed growing personal and government debt, the Northern Rock debacle, under-equipment of our armed forces while fighting two wars, and a contempt for the lower paid as seen in the recent 10p rate of tax fiasco.
Does the Labour government now expect to be re-elected? They must be joking! If they are serious, then they must take us for complete fools.
Under Blair, we had the open rallying cry: "Education, education, education", but under Brown we have the covert: "Tax, tax, tax".
I would argue: "Enough, enough, enough".
The rest of us will have to wait until a General Election for the chance metaphorically to kick Ed in the Balls, cut the Straw man down to size, give Peter Hain some pain, give Alastair (he isn't my) Darling the push and "make Brown history", so casting New Labour and its entourage into oblivion for many years to come.
How I envy you!
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In a sentence, the Conservative Party is bankrupt of ideas and policies.
Instead, the Conservative Party (Dave and Gideon) only choose to remind the electorate of situations beuond the control of Government, Oil and Globalisation.
It was a Conservative Thatcherite idea to flood this Country with immigrants and John Major was so convinced of this idea, that he signed us up once again just to show how easy it all was.
Polish people entered into the Crewe and Nantwich arena under Thatcher and Major. It is nothing new.
I know, because I know some of them personally!
Crewe has its own University full of kids who would not have been allowed under a Conservative Government.
How do I know this?
Because my kids go there! And they have got in thanks to a LABOUR Government!
Paid for by non other than GORDON BROWN!
Leighton Hospital is bouncing with awards using the phenominal extra cash that GORDON BROWN always promised it would have.
Waiting lists DOWN and FINANCES up!
Labour, get it?
Crewe has seen tremendous growth under the Blair and Brown leadership. If you want to start up a business, you go to CREWE. Have a word with the Billionaire, Caudwell.
Dave and Gideon know nothing, this side of the M25. They are a couple of spivs out to sell something that is unsellable. It's a party drenched in a history SLEAZE and it is frightening to ordinary innocent members of the public to have to witness.
Why do they persist in the sell of cutting taxes and increasing public services, when even George Soros (The man who broke the Conservative Party-forever) says it is an econonmic impossibility.
For sure, Gideon will cut taxes. He would find a way, if allowed. But BANG will go access to Higher Education for the masses and OUT will go CHILD TAX CREDITS.
Oh, Yes! They will RE-DISTRIBUTE OUR WEALTH alright.
It will go from the working classes of Crewe and Nantwich and end up in leafy suburbia that believe the Conservative Party was wronged by the ignorant electorate.
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#156 - very strong views, many of which I disagree with. But in the end you and I get just the same number of votes, no matter how loud either of us shout.
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#154 Dutchy now now Dutchy you promised us all that you would defect to HYS and here you are again interfering with the voters.
I have just read through the postings on this blog, I know that Tony Blair was constantly accused of spin and to to some extent that was justified, but some of the tory spin that I have just read from the Tory blogger's is so bad that as the saying goes its a wonder that they havent disapeared up their ,well you know where. just one point I did'nt know that the ERM fiasco was the fault of Labour and the Liberals. I always understood that it had something to do with Norman Lamont and Cameron and the conservatives, just goes to show you cant believe what you read. Which brings me to another point which all you interllectuals will find reason to tell me how stupid I am but why do people refer to the opinions of authors in this instance Burton Malkiel I am quite sure that the man is a expert in his own right, but in all probability there are other authors ' who would totally disagree with him. There are people writing here who pose as experts and many of us dont believe them, so why is it that if someone writes a book it is widely accepted as gospel when in fact it's only one mans opinion.
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#156 "It will go from the working classes of Crewe and Nantwich and end up in leafy suburbia that believe the Conservative Party was wronged by the ignorant electorate."
Is this the same ignorant electorate who are giving Labour a severe bloody nose?
Maybe, just maybe, the electorate are coming round to the idea that Labour does not work?
There are no more excuses for Labour - they are the architects of their own demise. By failing to listen and failing to understand, they have doomed themselves.
The people of Crewe aren't stupid (i should know) they have wised up to Labour just like the rest of the country and i would not be surprised to see a 10-12% swing to the Tories in this by-election.
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#158 - Grandantidote.
This may sound a bit surreal, but I was actually trying to paint Gordon Brown in a more favourable picture than the one that Kiwilegs was presenting.
Burton Malkiel is just one author, who happens to provide quite an accessible introduction to some of the most academically robust investment theory.
And I agree, it's best not to take the opinions of just one author as gospel.
Having said that, I have no qualms about recommending his book as intersting background reading because this isn't just "some guy who's had a book published" - he is a widely respected academic (ie subject to formal peer review by his contemporaries) who's investment philosophy is in line with academically robust research that has won numerous Nobel Prizes in the field of economics.
To that extent I don't believe it is just "only one man's opinion". I also listed several other eminent academics (so you could go off and read on them as well if you wanted to) - Markowitz (Nobel prize winner), Fama, Fench, Sharpe (Nobel prize winner), etc.
I also agree that I generally don't immediately believe everything written by others here (as I'm sure people don't gaze in wonder and awe at my posts), hence my desire to go off and find some impartial history about the gold thing so I could start to draw my own conclusions. But if you're looking for an expert, Malkiel's credentials are pretty sound - but don't take my word for it, go see for yourself (if you're interested)!
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#109 Charles E Hardwick, there has been a ravenous feeding fenzy by the tory press since labour took power and the Daily Mail has been the ringleader spitting out its vitriol on a daily basis.
144 Secondspanner, your remarks are ageist and sexist.
136 peteholly. could'nt agree more my friend.
Robin JD if you want to post check your facts first. your post is like a chapter from Alice in Wonderland.
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Dear Member,
It is an honour to have been chosen to lead the party at such an exciting time.
The Government have lost the nation's trust, and it is now up to us to earn that trust, and to show how our party can succeed in government.
Many people could be forgiven for thinking that the above could be penned by David Cameron when he took leadership of the Tory party. It was in fact Teflon Tony?s address to the NuLabour membership in 1994.
He also wrote, later in that document, Labour's strength is in its membership. At the turn of the new millennium I was one of those 50% that walked away from NuLabour. It is little wonder that NuLabour are virtually bankrupt.
Included in that address was the following diatribe:
In the coming year our campaigning concerns must include stepping up our fight against 17.5% VAT on fuel and the growing poverty among the low paid and the unemployed as well as highlighting a new agenda for fairness and greater equality;
Wonder if anyone can guess who penned the above. I will give you a clue!
70% Tax on fuel - does that help.
Yep - our good old friend Mr Bean. Think this really beggars belief!
Cue dhwilkinson.
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If, as seems likely, Crewe goes Blue it will be interesting to see how those New Lab MPs who voted Gordon in unopposed and cheered his 2007 Budget explain themselves!!
They are just as guilty of incompetence and deserving of the eject button in May 2010.
Bye bye Gordon!!
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Welcome back Dutchy5. I came here from HYS.
I left after the moderators blocked a reasonable response to the top commended blog:
"My thoughts are with the pandas at Wolong Nature Reserve." - Topsy Turvy
10s of thousand people, men women and children killed by a natural disaster. And this was the top rant. I really did not have the stomach to continue on that blog!
IndigenousCabbage seems like a lifetime ago. Any way, once again, welcome back.
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Now, now, #158, don't be naughty. No-one has said that the Tories were not responsbile for the ERM entry and exit, only that it's a bit rich for people of other parties to complain on here about it on here when the Labour Party, Liberal Party, TUC and CBI were all in favour of entry into the ERM too.
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bryanjames wrote:
"I can't see myself voting Tory but I'm not surprised that many former Labour votes are switching. Listen to David Cameron speaking today, I thought 'at least I can understand what he is saying'. Listening to Gordon Brown, when I can bear it, is like hearing a monologue addressed to academics about subjects you have little interest in"
er... so why not vote Tory then?!
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#160 colinfeb I bow to your greater knowledge of Burton Malkiel and of the other authors that you mention, no I wont be reading them . as they say in the modern vernacular "it's not my bag" it was not my intention to bring any disrepute to Burton Malkiel since I have not read one word that he has written. I was using him as I think you realise to make the very simple point that you should not believe everything you read, for a lighter example the Daily Mail, on a more serious note G B Shaw or Herman Hess, we are bombarded with quotes from all sortes of directions and we have to select the ones we think are viable you are obviously swayed by the arguement in favour of the Conservatives while I am equally swayed in favour of the Labour party , we take part in these blogs in the vain hope that we are going to persuade someone to join us but you and I know that that is not going to happen but then my friend we live in hope. In the meanwhile , Happy Blogging.
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#54 "and Harriet just got lucky!"
Gary, why don't you do some research into Harriet "Common Woman" Harman, you might be surprised.
She is the niece of the Earl of Longford, was educated at a very distinguished public (i.e. private) school, and her husband is the guy who doesn't know how much money is coming into the Labour party or from whom, despite being the treasurer.
I don't like the Tories much either, but I wouldn't blame a single person for voting for them in this by-election. And the fact that you think Ms Harman "just got lucky" sums up the deluded world Labour is living in these days.
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#155 thoughtsofjacooke, Well with all due respect I had to look again to make sure that your title was'nt thought of a joke it was so far from reality that I thought it must be. Your last paragraph is about as funny as a hole in the head I'm afraid that you Tories have been trying to find an expression you can use to match the liberal Mr Bean and ditherer that the Tories pathetically try to use over and over and over and overagain, I could understand it if they had thought of it but I'm afraid there isnt that much wit in the conservative party, funny at first but tired and boring now but I suppose you banal and unimaginative Tories will go on using it until someone in the liberal party thinks of somthing else you can use because it is'nt going to come from the uninspired tory benches.
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#167 - you're right. I don't think anything I say will persuade anyone else on here to change their views. But I do value it as a place that makes me think a bit harder about things and sometimes question opinions that may only be half formed. I may still end up with the same conclusion, but all the stronger for it. As you say, happy blogging!
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#169
I really do hate it when politicians (from all parties) think they can brainwash the public by using the same phrase over and over again. "Ditherer" absolutely. For Labour, how about "hard working families"? For all of them, "step change", or "not on my watch" (like they're all commanders in chief).
All of them need to realise how tedious this is!
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171 colinfeb we'll have to stop agreeing like this people will say were in love, just said the same thing on the other blog, Its boring and unimaginative.
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re 152 Grawth about my 145. They are too long to list
The poster is obviously petty and embarassing and will hurt the labour campaign.
I wrote that message about 'sparing a thought for the overprivilaged in this country', because the martyrdom being shown here is ridiculous. Someone even said it was like racism! You are not really that bothered about this so called prejudice and the so called hurt it caused to you. You are just trying to make amateur political capital out of it.
A little hypocritical from a conservative party that can not stop negative campaigning. Thats all it does.
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Moyra Tamsin Dunwoody-Kneafsey:
> Born in Devon
> Grand-daughter of a Baroness
> Educated at Grey Coat Hospital, highly-rated CofE girls' school in Westminster
> Lives in large farmhouse in six rural Welsh acres, currently undergoing large-scale rennovation*
Yes, she really is one of Crewe's salt-of-the-earth, working-class locals. NOT. She even has an entry in Burke's Peerage and Gentry. You really couldn't make this stuff up.
* I thought she was a struggling, unemployed, single mother of five?
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grandantidote
"there has been a ravenous feeding fenzy by the tory press since labour took power"
So you are claiming that since 1997 the majority (if not all) of the so called Tory press (I wonder whether you include the Sun in this list) has been violently opposed to Labour?
Did you read the Tory papers back then? I have had to put up with my wife's preference for the Daily Mail since we got married in April 1997, and I have to tell you that for at least the first 5 years they could barely bring themselves to write anything bad about Labour. Tony Blair had the longest press honeymoon ever.
Its only in the last few years that they've gone very negative on Labour, and that's primarily because of things Labour say not matching things they do. Incidentally, they still find room for a pop at Cameron now and again.
Similarly, when GB came to office, there was a period when he was praised for his performance with his response to the floods and farm diseases. It all started to go pear-shaped for him when he allowed election speculation to drag on, made troop announcements on a snap visit to Iraq in the middle of the Tory conference, brought everything forward a few weeks to clear the decks, and we started to hear about Northern Rock, and lost data and so on.
To pretend the Tory press have been hounding labour since 1997 is just plain silly.
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On a TV debate last night hosted by Jeremy Paxman he inquired of Tamsin Dunwoody if she regretted the cheap toff labelling approach to electioneering in her constituency. She said 'No!' quite vehemently adding that The electorate needed to know what kind of a person her opponent really was. Says it all really!
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172 colin feb sorry about the love thing i meant to say "people will talk" unfortunately that had promted me to remember the old song "people will say were in love" the mind tends to wander as you get older.
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175 grawth Yes I did used to read newspapers in 1997 I stopped reading them other than in waiting rooms about 2004 when I found that the policy with all of them is "it does'nt matter if its true as long as its a good story"that did'nt sit well with me I also noticed that in conversation that I was being quoted constantly from newspapers from what I had considered to be fairly intelligent friends, when I disagreed with certain comments they would say "it must be right it was in the Times/Sun"which brings me full circle to what Colinfebs and myself have been referring to. I must confess that I do not read the Daily Mail but I do make a point of looking at the headlines of that awful newspaper most days and contrary to what you say I have never ever seen a word of praise for the Labour party. if as you say the Daily Mail supported Tony Blair for Five years then we must get a different Daily Mail in this part of the World. It's even considered a joke, their anti labour daily protestations, amongst many commentators on the News and documentry programs. If your wife is of the same political persuasion as you how could she have beared to read for five years the praise for Tony Blair, if on the other hand she is'nt of the same political persuasion as you how can she bear to read it now, Regarding the Sun I thought that we were talking about serious if inaccurate newspapers,.Murdoch will move in any direction that suits his purpose you know that I know that. Murdoch and one or two other people are using their money to attempt to control this country and a few of them are in the Tory hierarchy. see other blog, what is being silly is to try to make out that the Daily Mail is not a Tory Newspaper.
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I spent yesterday in Crewe and Nantwich canvassing for Labour.
I spotted a lonely Conservative Poster delightfully taking centre stage above Gwyneth's Constituency office, rented out to a solicitor (how low do Tories wish to get?).
The remainder of the building was plastered in 'Vote Tamsin' posters.
Everywhere around the Constituency, Labour posters are proudly on display with only a scattering of Lib Dem posters.
Nowhere is a 'Tory boy' Timpson poster to be seen, after all, this is Crewe and Nantwich and not the old Kings road!
I spoke to everyone I saw and all but one couple were voting Labour.
The odd couple were very concerned about the 10p tax fiasco and had not made their mind up yet.
My view of what I have seen personally is that the media have bulled up a false Conservative victory and that the class war campaign has been a runaway success.
Dave should give up on a 2010 Conservative victory, step aside and allow No.6 to come in and take the reins.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
GaryElsby wrote:
'Everywhere around the Constituency, Labour posters are proudly on display with only a scattering of Lib Dem posters.
Nowhere is a 'Tory boy' Timpson poster to be seen, after all, this is Crewe and Nantwich and not the old Kings road!'
They must feel that they don't need to waste precious money on advertising their candidate. The flawed Labour campaign after all is doing their job for them!
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Er.......I don't know if it has somehow passed you by, but even the whole population of Tibet and the closed City of Pyongyang in Korea know that I have a closed mind for Labour and I'm a lost cause to anyone who wishes to sell me Gideon and 'Tory boy' Timpson as the saviours of Great Britain!
Do more children go to University than ever befor? Yes!
Are we having brand new Hospitals and Schools with inflated budgets? Yes.
The rebuilding of Great Britain goes on. It is no surprise that Gordon Brown is the architect of this adventure even in the face of mass Globalisation and credit imbalances.
The Conservatives had their turn throughout the 20th Century and they were proven to be a wasted opportunity who paraded their class colours in their militarised attacks upon the working classes fighting for survival.
Tories should clear off, nobody wants them.
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#182 - it's like listening to a repeat of Citizen Smith!
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180# I take exception to any post like this.
Is the identity of people on this site not held private?
I have found a few I could identify but have not done so.
I think that whilst I stick to policy that spiteful remark should not have been printed.
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180#Why should what happen on the Bolton Blog site have any bearing on a BBC one?
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Formal Complaint.
180# should be removed to identify anybody is wrong.
I complain about this post
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oh! damn I missed 180
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187:
I was thinking the very same thing a couple of hours ago!
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182
You're on a hiding to nothing if you seriously think that Labour isn't attacking the working classes who are fighting for survival. I can't believe that you could be so blinkered.
Do you own a car? Do you have to fill it up? Do you go shopping? Do you have a mortgage? If you have any or all of the above, you can't possibly not have been affected by the higher prices - unless of course you earn a colossal salary.
If Gordon continues to "steer the country" through this path, I fear that all we will all have to look forward to is a 3 day week, and our cars will be stuck in the drive because we can't afford the petrol to run them. Read the papers - I'm not making it up, it's all there.
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No 181 seems to be waging a spirited one man campaigh to talk up NuLabours prospects! It's interesting that about 90% of the other posts seem to be critical of the Hariet Harman/the Govt/the Labour candidate. Despite No 181's best efforts, it's clear that he's swimming against a tidal wave on this occasion.
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#109 - you won't hear anything from our Gary today. He'll be too busy blowing up balloons and putting up the bunting for Tamsin's victory party. Be interesting to see if it's a big success or whether it turns out to be just him and a plate of sausage rolls!
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sorry, should have been #190...
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190# Burlybob.
What makes you so sure he is swimming against the tide?
Please bear in mind that the Conservative have thrown everything but the kitchen sink at this by election.
They have even sent coachloads of people up to the constituence.
How many of them like me when asked by the pollster how I am going to vote I tell them what I think they wish to hear to get rid of the.
Have you never heard of canvass fatigue.
We had it here once and it was sheer bedlam, it was easier to say what the candidate wished to hear then we could move on our way.
The only other alternative was to be quite rude and that would not be fair as each is trying their best to win.
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kiwilegs wrote:
'What makes you so sure he is swimming against the tide?'
When the results of GaryElsbys canvassing and that of his fellow activists come in at around 2 a.m. we'll be better placed to answer this question properly!
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And now we know for certain. The tide is against him and the game is up!
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194#
Labour took a pasting and they richly deserved it. The 10p tax band was a huge error.
To give the Liberals their due it was them that spotted the fault line not Gideon Osborne, the pretender to the Chancellor's job.
Brown should have picked this up earlier he did not and now is paying the price.
However one swallow doth not a summer make.
Perhaps now Cameron will start to be taken seriously by the press and media and his policies or the want of them should be well and truly scrutinised.
To feed the guff to the ferral press and media that they will not publish this side of a GE because Labour pinches their policies will not wash any longer with the press or media.
So it is cards on the table time now and Cameron has some fast talking to do.
The only promise that was made to the people of Crewe was that of Inheritance Tax which only helps 6% of the population.
This seat will return to Labour I could put good money on that at the next GE and in the meantime I hope the loss of this seat helps to concentrate some treacherous Labour MP's minds to get behind Brown.
Nobody will vote for a disunited party.
I must admit though that the Tories ran a well oiled machine they threw everything they had at it.
It is said that people turned out who had not voted for over a decade. I know they sent coachloads to canvass and it has paid off.
I hope Labour get back to the same winning formula.
I for one do not think the game is up as I keep saying a week is a long time in politics.
Cameron's problems have only just started.
Things have been long overdue where that young man is concerned so far he has been cushioned by the press and media from today the gloves will be off.
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I admire your faith but I and a lot of renowned political commentators believe it is misplaced. Labour have had 11 years to try and impress The Electorate with their policies and it's just not working. To blame the malaise of The Government on people 'feeling the pinch' or 'mid term blues' just doesn't wash any more and proves to me that they just don't get it.
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'The only promise that was made to the people of Crewe was that of Inheritance Tax which only helps 6% of the population.'
My parents worked hard all their lives, very rarely went on holidays and spent all their savings on the family. When they died the amount of money purloined by The Government from the proceeds of their house was obscene. More and more people fell into this trap as the cost of houses sky rocketed. Over the course of a few decades many more people are affected by this pernicious tax. I wouldn't mind so much if the money had been spent widely. Instead it has been thrown down a bottomless pit of expenditure and in many cases utterly wasted.
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kiwilegs wrote:
'Perhaps now Cameron will start to be taken seriously by the press and media and his policies or the want of them should be well and truly scrutinised.
To feed the guff to the ferral press and media that they will not publish this side of a GE because Labour pinches their policies will not wash any longer with the press or media.
So it is cards on the table time now and Cameron has some fast talking to do.'
I'm sure that now the portents are that he will be P.M. sooner rather than later he will put more meat on his ideas. After all he is not yet in office and can promise nothing until he has studied the books. I suspect his hands will be thoroughly tied however by our crippling debts.
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You know mutleyspuppy whatever gave you the idea I was remotely interested in your opinion?
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200:
Likewise but for more logical reasons! And the name's mutleyspup not mutleyspuppy by the way. Do you see me mocking your username?
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