Mini Budget
A pre-by-election tax giveaway paid for by increased government borrowing. That was the chancellor's announcement in what amounts to a mini Budget.
It is designed, once and for all, to kill the 10p row and to wrong foot the Tories since they have called for help for the 10p losers and to help those struggling as the credit crunch bites.
Labour MPs are happier than they have been for weeks and the Tories, for the first time in a long time, look wrong footed.
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Greater borrowing - just what we need in this time of economic downturn and instability!
This is little more than a sap to try and win a few extra votes in Crewe where I'm sure they really aren't as stupid as Labour would like to believe.
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How were the Tories wrong-footed? Please give the British Public some credit,it's a short-term blatant panic measure and the Tories will be delighted at this Government's abject failings and total disarray making the headlines again.
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Here we go again, another bribe before an election - albeit a by-election.
This government seems to make a habit of insulting our intelligence, but make no mistake most of us have long memories and we will remember this at general election time. This is a one off sop for short term gain.
When will this government realise we can no longer be fooled!!!
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I think this is a great announcement.
Not only has it kept the more simplified tax system that the abolition of the 10p band achieved, but has righted the wrong caused by its abolition.
Sure the greater borrowing isn't the best thing, but the effects the increase will have counter the negative of the borrowing in my eyes.
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This seem sensible and pretty obvious. Why the hell with the combined brain power in the Treasury couldn't it have been done weeks if not months ago?
Much as I hate to agree with the smirking George Osbourne, this looks very much like electioneering - buying votes with a one-off tax present. I too will want to see the small print.
I also don't think it has wrong-footed the Tories or LDs, it just reinforces the impression of incompetence and political ineptitude we have seen ever since GB became our Dear Leader.
I wouldn't place any bets on it saving the Labour majority at Crewe and Nantwich, although it may help at the margins.
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Perhaps instead of relying on the usual crutches of more tax and more borrowing the government should consider trimming away some of the fat from the bloated public sector, thus reducing their level of spending.
Or maybe they need all those dependants on benefits and a public sector wage. Where else would they get their votes from?
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So all the waffle about not being able until the autumn was just that waffle ???
Just trying to grab headlines before a by election he has to find the money for this from somewhere doesnt seem to explain from where. Perhaps he doesn't know.
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Having read the statement I think that this increase in the personal allowance applies to THIS year only. All the way through he speaks of "this financial year" - so what will happen next year.
Given this government's previous form on being deceitful with tax changes, I suspect that this is not a reduction of £120 per year, but a one-off payment to provide short-term headlines.
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That's obscene; doing a half-baked version of what people urged them to do over a year ago, but doing it in such a way that it costs more money than the correct fix would have done, purely in a bid to win a by-election.
If they fixed it properly they could have given back all of the 10pct doubling rate grab, and reduced the 22pct rate, and still have it end up costing less money than the original budget.
They obviously don't understand basic maths/logic.
I hope the good people of Crewe see past the headline and into the real motives and results from that totally bogus change.
More borrowing? Wow; do they not understand that they could avoid more borrowing simply by shifting the various allowances and the 22pct-to-20pct change about a bit? They could, if they wanted to, make everyone happy and still have it save money compared to the previous budget.
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"Wrong footed the Tories"
Hmmm... Isn't this how the problem started? In just about the last sentance of Browns last Budget where he announced the cut in basic rate tax to wrong foot the Tories - paid for by the abolition of the 10p tax band.
Despite the Chancellor refusing to spell out who still loses it seems pretty clear to me. The young low earners were not compensated in the budget at all by increases in Tax Credits.
As the "compensation" is based on the average loss, taking account of the increased tax credits announced in the Budget, it is those that do not get the Tax credits that are still net losers.
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Hmm - won't lowering the 40% threshold bring more people into the higher tax band, rather than just make the changes neutral for existing higher-rate payers?
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What this amounts to is that the country has been committed to another £2.7b of borrowing in order to limit Labour’s damage in the forthcoming by-election.
Clearly I am wrong but I thought there were rules preventing this sort of pork barrelling immediately prior to an election.
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According to the Treasury Select Committee report households without children or anyone over the age of 65, and on incomes below £18,500 a year, would lose out on average £232 a year.
According to the BBC Chancellor Alistair Darling has put up the personal tax allowance by £600, meaning every basic rate taxpayer will pay £120 less tax this year.
£232 - £120 = £112
£112 will be the average LOSS to those 5.3 million people on LOWEST incomes and wages.
The gap has not been closed so this measure by Alistair Darling is NOT the full compensation promised.
It is worse than that it means that people who earn more £18,500 now have a double bonus, tax rate reduced from 22p to 20p and personal tax allowance increase of £600.
The poorest workers and those on low incomes are still paying higher taxes that benefit the better paid.
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Nick - you're in a bubble in Westminster and clearly have no idea how the Government is viewed or a grasp of the implications of this announcement. How can it be positive for the Government to revise their own budget within weeks because they fear losing a by-election?
If Brown stuck to his guns we might respect him despite disagreeing with the policy, but this just emphasises how politically weak he is. He just will not learn that short term tactical measures just look clumsy and opportunistic, and in this case incompetent. He is making Cameron look statesmanlike!
Can you confirm if higher rate tax payers actually benefit by £240 p.a. and therefore twice as much as basic rate tax payers? This is the case if the allowance increased for all.
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Seriously, this is what makes Labour MP's happy? The 10p tax debacle has been a huge mess that the Chancellor has had to borrow a whacking £2.7bn to clean up. Not sure how it wrong foot's the Tories particularly.
Anyway, I'm waiting for the small print. We'll have to pay for this one way or another.
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Using my basic maths,I understand from this that all basic rate taxpayers will get an extra 120 pounds in their pay packetsbut I fail to see how the lowest paid who were the biggest losers in the original budgethave gained parity.The majority of people getting the extra allowance were no worse off after the last budget so they are 120 pounds in pocket the lowest paid were said to be 200 pounds worse off so minus the 120 pounds they have a net loss of 80 pounds.Could someone please explain why it seems to me that the majority of by election voters will be better off at yet again the lower paid.
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Sometimes I worry about you Mr Robinson. What on earth is wrong footing the tories about borrowing more money in order to put a plaster on an earlier error? Short termism is the name of this governments game.
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Sorry just seen 40% band reduced accordingly.
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Wrong foot the Tories?! Darling has done exactly what they have been calling for. Just because they may have been expecting him to make a bigger hash of it doesn't mean they are "wrong footed".
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1). Why did it take them so many weeks to come up with such a blatantly obvious answer? How stupid are these people?
2). So the Government will have ot borrow even more to stump up this money. Not a sign of economic competence
3). This act was bourne of political desparation forced upon them by the blatant exposure of the gross contempt that they showed for 5 million of the poorest workers, during an economic downturn whilst billionaire bankers were being bailed out.
Make no mistake, the labour party are now seen as a vile and malignant caricature of the old nasty Tory party.
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One of the main arguments put forward recently by ministers, in favour of the abolition of the 10p rate, was that the rich would no longer benefit from that rate on any of their income.
Maybe I misunderstand these things, but isn't an across the board increase in the personal tax allowance going to benefit everyone - including the rich?
So, we have a Government that defended their actions - and then abandoned their policy by changing it to one that has the same flaw as they were claiming to have corrected.
They cannot have it both ways.
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"all basic rate taxpayers will be £120 better off"
"The worst affected losers in the 10% tax rate change will be £232 worse off"
Doesn't add up does it?
Of course doing a U turn and not abolishing the 10% tax rate would be too simple.
Looks to me as if Labour have once again miscalculated.
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Darling isn't going to reveal the details about this until the Autumn..........it'll take him that long to figure out how he's going to alter the tax system to make it work.
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@ number 8 and number 11... Totally correct. This is labour trying to make a slik purse out of a pigs ear of a budget.
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A mini-budget? Dennis Healey was rather fond of those. We also have a queue for mortgages, banks being bailed out by the Bank of England, rampant inflation.... The only question is, does David Cameron have the willpower of Margaret Thatcher to dig us out of this mess?
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If, as was said in the House, the Labour party distributed a leaflet in Crewe and Nantwich giving details of this announcement this morning, they have exposed their cynical attempts at manipulating a by-election result.
They are not compensating everyone. Those they are leaving with little or no compensation are those with the lowest income.
How does that square with their commitment to the poor?
Cynical and shameful.
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The announcement of an increase in my personal tax allowance of £600 does not bridge the gap between my current allowance and that of my husband who is 65 and drawing state pension. I will be 60 in August and will also draw my state pension but am being penalised by the labour government because I am under 65, and a woman who is retiring at 60. If I am eligible for my state pension why can I not be eligible for the full increased tax allowance? I hope Gordon Brown loses every vote from 60 to 64 year olds (if he hasn't already)!
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Osborne's whiny bawling of abuse and lack of policy backed up by his side's calling 'Get back to Scotland' should be contrasted with Vince Cable's measured targetting of the important questions.
The Tories don't care about the poor. They just want anything to beat the Government with to their hands on power again and will let Cameron be as 'wet' as he likes...until they get in that is.
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Mr_cookie, just to explain the 40% higher tax rate "decrease" by £600. It means that no-one who is now paying higher rate tax is any worse off than the new system allowed for them. Effectively, the £120 bonus you would have received from the fact your basic rate of income tax kicking in at the £600 new tax free allowance is offset by the fact you are now going to pay £120 more within the higher rate level. So long as you are earning less than the new higher rate threshold you will be better off (but it will taper off until you "reach" the old higher threshold), at least from the proposals post the 10% aboliton of income tax. I'm still trying to figure out where these 1.1m losers are - the confusion is that the new system, of the famously abolished 10% rate has hardly taken hold before these revisions are made.
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So presumably the 40% rate threshold will drop to £35700 to make it neutral for those currently in the higher tax bracket??
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"all basic rate taxpayers will be £120 a year better off"
"maximum amount any single individual could be worse off by is £232 per year"
Looks to me like Labour has miscalculated again.
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10 emergency statements from a Chancellor who has been in office (though not in power or control) for 10 months
That is hardly evidence of a government that has direction and focus.
Lurching from disaster to disaster more like.
The devil with any of Gordon Brown's financial fiddlings is in the detail (and it is GB not Darling who is doing all of this). The poorest will be those who continue to suffer
But the Labour MPs will gloss over that fact
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Cost £2.7 billion ?
Is there no cap on the amount spent on by-electioneering ?
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How have the Conservatives been wrong-footed, please Nick?
If Labour MP's are happier than they have been for weeks, they won't be smiling when they lose the Crewe and Nantwich by-election next week.
They must think we all came down with the last shower if they think we want to wait until the autumn to hear about how Darling is going to get them out of this mess.
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This is just the repeat of the LABOUR TAX CON by Gordon Brown in 2007.
Forget the headline figures, the lowest paid workers and those on low incomes are still losing out to the tune of £100.
It amazes me that political pundits like Nick Robinson can be so easily fooled.
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Well, at least what we can glean from this what Gordon Brown values his own job at.
Borrowing from the Gilt market is obviously calculated to save his own skin.
Though I would guess the taxpayer stumping up £2.7Bn (don't forget to add the annual interst of £121.3m on that) to stay in office would compare with the best of lifetime hauls for dictators.
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this labour lot introduced the 10p band. was this a good idea? then they scarpepd it. was that the right idea? then they fiddled some benefits to make that change not seem so bad. was that the right idea?
now they have fiddled with the whole system to undo what they just did.
If they don't know what it is they want to do with our tax system, can they please resign and let some people who have clear ideas run the government?
2.6 Billion might buy 1 by-election. It won't buy the general election and they know it. Its time for cameron to call for a cote of no confidence and try to force an election.
==I voted labour all my life until the Iraq war==
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This whole situation is a farce.
Surely the government could have worked this one out for themselves.
Where is the £2bn going to come from ....
Ans ... Us all ..... Next year and the next
One question .. What about higher rate taxpayers .. just because they earn a reasonable salary doesnt mean they are wealthy.
The problem is that the National Insurance Threshold was raised in the last budget from £34,000 odd to £40,000 odd ... so anyone earning over £40,000 gets to pay 11% more on about £6000.
.... and what about the forthcoming Fuel tax increases ?
Nobody mentions this one ...... It comes to a pretty state of affairs when a budget change has to be reversed.
I for one have had enough
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Why is the Chancellor and the government always talk about helping “families”. What about single people? It is often single people who struggle far more than couples with increasing house prices and living costs. Why should single people be penalised for not having a family?
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Erm, no...
What is looks like is the UK Economy steadily sinking due to calamitous mis-management.
Who do you think is going to pay for the extra Borrowing? Why do you think the Electorate can't see through this?
It will be fascinating a) to see what the BBC's Economics bods will make of this, and b) what the Crewe and Nantwich voters make of it!
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An as expected cynical response from a Government under siege with a lack of moral fibre.
The increase in all fuel charges is bringing in increasing amounts of taxation which appears to be vanishing, attempts are made to rob from the already hard up and yet we see no effort by central Government to curb their spending.
Instead the Country is again increasing its borrowing, please explain why the Labour MP's are so happy!!
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Tories Wrong footed?
To labour spin doctors.
Give us some credit; we are not that stupid to believe that hogwash.
1) You created the 10p disaster, to try and kill the Tories support.
2) If ppl hadn’t protested and kicked labour in the teeth over it, you would not have lifted a finger to help those affected
3) Brown tried to get out of it by deceit and denying it was a problem.
4) When you where forced to do something, you now trying say it is a labour victory.
5) 2.7 billion borrowed - few weeks ago brown said it would cost way a few hundred million to help those.
6) To top it all some will still be worse off.
If you think the Tories have been wrong footed you been smoking too much of the substance you reclassified last week.
It is a humiliation nothing more nothing less.
The great chancellor brown, give me a break - his decisions in this 10 pence saga alone simply proves he is a fraud.
120 pounds will not make me forget what you did in the first place and how you tried to weasel out of it.
Labour can not be trusted simple as that.
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Who puts the words in your mouth Robinson?
How can the Tories possibly be wrong footed by a tax cut funded by debt? Terrible parroting of government spin.
Are you a ventiloquists dummy or a journalist......
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To be fair to Nick Robinson he did not say the tories were wrong footed just they looked wrong footed. Evidence of that was George Osbourne's inability to think on his feet and ask the questions that needed to be asked. That was left to Vince Cable who rather than just hurl insults as Osbourne did actually asked what this would mean. But i guess we know which will get on the Six O'Clock news because insults and a rant make better TV.
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Sorry Nick - but I am getting a bit frustrated by your desire to help Gordon get his message over.
You are here to be impartial and provide informed commentary - not fall for what you are told.
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Wrong footing the Tories? They've just lost control of London for the next four years.
Clutching at straws would be more appropriate.
Labour MPs are always happy at tax and spend policies; that's why we're in this mess
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Labour MP's smiling? Tories wrong footed?
On the same day Carloline Flint's faux pas exposes the government's true feelings on house prices; that they will fall by 10% or more at best. I don't see millions of homeowners laughing at that prospect.
Yes, Nick, the tories have really been put in their corner by Labour u-turning on a u-turn.
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What a farce! This is the sort of 'compromise' that leaves everyone unsatisfied....
... and low-income earners are still worse off.
Two minutes worth of close scrutiny and this whole 'mini-budget' falls apart. The only people to be 'wrong footed' by this are the Labour MPs who applauded it.
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Wasn't one of the other reforms that came in this year an alignement of point where you stop paying NI with the start of the 40% tax band (I seem to think this was coming and and assume this was the reason for a not insignificant increase in my NI payments last month!) ... if so then does this mean there's going to be a reduction in NI when high rate limit goes down ... or do we now have a smal band where tax rate is 50%!
Anyway, just heard the main statement on radio and its clear AD was emphasising 22million better off and 4.3 got at least as much as they had lost ... gives the distinct impression that there will be some who are still out of pocket (or why wouldn't he say everyone who lost has got as least as much as they lost back) ... wonder how long it will take for labour backbenchers to work this one out>
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Nick, it really does surprise me that you've fallen hook line and sinker for the blatent opportunism of the government. The whole reason, for about 5 minutes, the Tories were appearing to be on the back foot was because Osborne was only given the Chancellor's statement to prepare a response. That's precisely why the tax con trick worked in 2007, until the proposals were actually enacted this year. And, if the reports are true that election material was produced or distributed for the by election campaign before today outlining today's changes, then I'm afraid this Government is in very murky electoral waters indeed.
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Borrow more money so that you can tell the clients what they want to hear and then your staff will be all be happy. So that’s how you wrong foot the opposition… Sorry can’t chat now, I’m off to the bank.
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The chancellor stated previously that it would cost £7 billion to reverse the decisions. - Agreed?
The Chancellor states that his package will cost £2.7 billion. Agreed?
Therefore £4.3 billion is still being gouged out of the poorer. Agreed!
And this is for THIS YEAR ONLY! Next year we're back to fiscal drag and more stealth taxes.
At least in 2010 the Conservatives will be able to implement their own budget to correct the 2010 March give-away (bribery) budget that will be presented.
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Hasn't Labour shot the Labour fox? How can Darling and Brown complain of unfunded tax cuts from the Tories!!
Nick - read the comments here - in term so of economic competence an ERM moment I think.
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Mr Robinson, you always managed to find something to accuse the Tories of doing something wrong/sly/opportunistic.
I do worry about your impartiality.
I think for once everyone should be agreed the Government got the 10p wrong but have put it right.
It has nothing to do with the Tories.
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Chancellor Alistair Darling has put up the personal tax allowance by £600 - meaning anyone earning up to about £41,350 will gain £120 this year. “At a cost of £2.7bn, I will increase the individual personal tax allowances by £600 to £6,035 for this financial year, benefiting all basic rate taxpayers under the age of 65,” he said.
Note that phrase - “all basic rate taxpayers under the age of 65?!!
This means the age allowances will be REDUCED by £600 so that state pensioners will get the same benefit as anyone earning over £41,350 - bugger all.
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Why no mention of the losers in any of these articles? if you are a higher rate tax payer you are now worse off as the re-creation of the 10% band is paid for by the lowering of the higher band, so what you used to pay 20% for is now 40%. Therefore you pay 10% more tax on the difference. great...
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Maybe its just me, but are all the pound signs broken in the blog comments here?
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Nick,
Explain to me how, by forcing this inept government into a 'mini-Budget', the Tories have been 'wrong-footed'?
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Nick - seems as if I am not the only one to question your response to this statement.
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Am I missing something here... Point 24 of the Chancellors statement is "...I am therefore reducing the threshold at which an individual starts to pay tax at the higher rate by £600."
The previous threshold was £36,000 so I assume this is now being reduced to £35,400
In order to ensure that higher rate tax payers pay the same amount the threshold needs to be reduced by £1200
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OH Dear, Oh Dear, Oh Dear!!
When Gordon Brown had his final flourish as Chancellor by reducing the basic rate of income tax, but failing to mention the abolition of the 10p rate, it was lauded as "pulling a rabbit from the hat."
Poor old Alastair Darling has now tried to repeat the trick... and produced a rather fetching Norwegian Blue, but as with all Norwegian Blues it is simply a Dead Parrot.
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Hang on, Hang on, Hang on
From my figures, Darling is hitting the Higher Rate payers by a net minus £120.
Lower rate band raised by £600
=600 x 20p = £120
Higher rate band lowered by £600
= 600 x 40p = £240
Net loss = £120 - £240 = £120 worse off
So thats a lot of people paying a lot more tax.
True, or not ?
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Once upon a time, Gordon Brown said that he would be "prudent" and only borrow to fund "investments".
How does that square with borrowing to fund a (currently) one-year adjustment in tax thresholds in order to compensate people he so royally shafted?
Brown bleats that, should any cuts be made to existing spending promises, public services would suffer.
Does he really not believe that the QANGOs he manages (at second hand) could not cope if they made a 1% efficiency cut?
That would deliver about £6Billion of savings.
Brown wanted a bonfire of the QANGOs when he came to office as Chancellor. Where exactly has he delivered?
Face it, Gordon. Blair walked at a good time.
Who would now offer you a £5Million advance to publish your book on "How I rescued the UK economy"?
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Nick states "...to wrong foot the Tories since they have called for help for the 10p losers.." Not sure that I understand the logic. How can you be wrong footed when someone gives you what you are asking for?
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Don't see how the Tories have been wrongfooted but Labour have just shot themselves in the foot-again. Under the original proposals someone earning £10000 a year would have paid £913 per year tax, under the new proposals they will pay £793 per year tax. Sounds good, until you realise that if the 10p rate still existed they would have paid £700.50 per year so they are still £92.50 per year worse off plus £2.7 billion is to be added to the nation's debt pile. If Labour think this will turn the tide they really are living in La-La land
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Nick
I personally lost out by £250 when the 10p tax rate was doubled, joy of joys I am now getting £120 back between now and December.
The fact that this months installment of my largess in helping the well off get even more money, is coming out of my income now is apparently incidental.
I have no doubt the idiots behind Darling were cheering, just as they were when Brown doubled the starting rate of tax.
Let the Labour idiots cheer, but we have long memories, which will sustain us until the bungling bottler final sounds his death knell, sorry calls an election.
P.S. I am really glad your take home pay has gone up, you really deserve it.
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Looks like the contributors to this discussion are doing a better job of examining the detail of this announcement than the journalists at the BBC.
What price proper scrutiny?
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Lets hope the good people of Crewe and Nantwich have the good sense NOT to be suckered into voting for Labour.
Gordon Brown is clearly taking them for fools on this one.
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Nick,
Thank god for the comments. Without them your blog post would read like a piece of unadulterated Labour spin.
So much for the impartial BBC.
But then again you lot have got your snouts in the public trough as much as Gordo and chums.
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Yes the Labour members of Parliament should be happy and whatsmore they should be getting behind Brown.
Plus the fact it is high time they started to analyse all the guff Cameron has been putting out of late and attacking it instead of going numb.
And it is high time that the press and media in this Country started to question Cameron as so far he has had it all his own way, he has been on kami kazi raids trying to fool the unsuspecting.
Some of the fools in this Country can be bought by glib words but the press and media should not fall into that category or will they?
How about starting with Andrew Lansley's claim that any hospital that overspent it's allocation of cash would be allowed to go into receivership.
He said so on another channel and was not questioned or taken seriously enough by the political editor of that channel who seems to be in cahouts with the Tories.
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It appears he hasn't shown by how much he's dropping the threshold for the top rate of tax - I'm assuming to make it netural he'll drop it by GBP300 (40 percent of GBP300 is GBP120). The point has to be made however that by lowering it by just these GBP300, he'll be taxing some people more ... so it's ok to give to the poor by taking from the rich? I don't think so ...
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So to make these changes everyone will have to receive a new PAYE tax code plus every wages dept in the country will have to receive new tax tables??????????
How much will this cost?
I wrote to Alistair Darling before the budget to ask him how he was going to compensate the low paid for the loss of the 10% tax band
It was obvious that increases in the personal tax rates would be needed
I listened carefully to the Budget when it was broadcast to hear that he was going to do nothing
When he and Gordon were challenged about the unfairness of the changes we were treated as if we were idiots and did not understand the intracies of the budget, which was an absolute disgrace!
This is a fiasco of the first order and means that this government has no credibilty left
How the tories can put the country back on its feet will be a major problem as they sold most of it off when they were in power!
Perhaps we should all go and live in France!
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Gordon Brown and his advisers are incompetent - that is the only conceivable explanation for their catastrophic 10p blunder. They should be thrown out at the first opportunity.
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earlier today I posted that I respected Frank Field for sticking to his guns, I take that back he should not have apologised and it should be Gordon and Alistair that are saying sorry to the British public.
they now are attempting to buy a by election by making an announcement of policy. The fact that the new policy doesn't really fit the bill, leaving some people (actually whole nation as we shall be borrowing to do it) worse off rather than returning the poorest to the status quo is not on... and the fact it is one year only shows treasury haven't had time to properly consider it.
if, big if, rumour is true this change was leafleted this am in the by-election area then surely the matter needs an inquiry for it is proper such things should be first announced in the house and not to one group of voters who might (but probably wont if they have sense) change their intentions.
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The Labour backbenchers seem to have greeted this with almost as much enthusiasm as they did Brown's announcement that he would abolish the 10 pence band.
We were told that change had back-footed the Tories too, weren't we?
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It is indeed correct that he should reduce the higher rate threshold by the same £600. Higher rate tax payers are only paying 20p more in the pound on that last £600. They were paying 20p in the pound, and they are now paying 40p
600x(40-20)=120
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Gordon Brown - from all that we know - was never a team player. There is no way that he will ever be able to lead the Labour Party back from the current situation.
He does not have any good will left - he has lost that in perhaps the most spectacular way in recent political history.
There is almost something tragic about it.
The events of today are further evidence of a real sense of panic at the centre of the government. They couldn't find it in them to offer an apology for their failings. Without some humility, they will never regain the trust of the people they have hurt.
Seeing Frank Field cave - again - was just too humiliating for words.
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Of course it's electioneering. But wasn't this always the most blindingly obvious solution? And with the added benefit of simplifying the income tax system.
Now the staggeringly simple solution of tweaking the threshholds is announced I feel I am missing something about the real motive for the then Chancellor not doing it in the first place.
The half-baked effort at replacing the 10p rate with bureaucratic means tested 'credits' - you might guess I am one who would never benefit from them - always did sound more complicated.
Wasn't tweaking the allowances and threshholds always the way to encourage working and help lift the lowest paid out of poverty? What am I missing?
Was Brown determined to leave a poisoned chalice to his successor as Chancellor, to make himself look better by making his successor look a fool?
Was he, and the whole machine that supports him, so completely divorced from reality that nobody realised substantial numbers of people would lose out? Or maybe that was the intention?
Was the object deliberately to eschew simplicity in an ever more unintelligible tax system in favour of actively increasing its complexity?
I'm grateful to the Labour rebels who forced the issue. But what genuinely worrries me is the real motivation of the man who created this particular mess in the first place.
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Some idiots do not understand simple maths Nick. First they complained that they were going to loose out when the 10% was removed, and now the same persons are saying that they pay 40% tax and are going to loose out, ha ha haj! Who do you lot think you are kidding?
If only our misery of non stop taxing under the Tories were solved in this way, we would not have suffered as much in them days, especially when on top of these, we used to have increases in VAT which went up from 8% to 17.5% with Capital gains tax up to 40%, and interest rates at 15% + the fuel escalator to bring our fuel price more then double that in Europe!
Those days are over guys!
Have you lot (which are now furious at Field's apology), forgotten what the people of this country had to endure?
What will you lot be saying when the now 20% basic rate is reduced to 18%? Oh, we were better off paying 24%? That is exactly where we started!
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Nick, you're too young (I think)to recall the last time Labour bribed a by-election electorate. It was during the Hull North by-election in January 1966 that Barbara Castle confirmed the project to build the Humber Bridge, generating hundreds of jobs at a time when Harold Wilson held a precarious Commons majority. Unfortunately, it was a bridge from nowhere to nowhere - but in winning a marginal seat, Wilson went to the country later that year and won. If Labour win Crewe, I can't see Brown having the guts to follow suit!
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Nick, Are you going to come clean on YOUR finances? I am sure that you must be paid directly or by back-hander to blatantly support this calamity Brown.
You are supposed to be impartial and this is the most blatant attempt at pro-labour spin I have ever seen on the BBC.
Through scrappily messing about with various threshholds, Labour have managed to INCREASE taxes and leave over 5 milion of the poorest working and retired people worse off by over 110 pounds, (rather than 232) and you attempt to spin this as GOOD news? They have made a bad situation worse and you think we should all start giving credit to labour?
Labour MP's smiling? well that shows their true colours then. Kicking the poor and middle classes when they are down is par for the course with that lot. They launch wars based on blatant lies, double taxed on the poorest whilst bailing out billionaire bankers. This kind of maliscious and malignant betrayal of their core support always seems to please them. Nick, you should be exposing this not actively trying to cover it up!
This adds insult to injury and if you do not report that during this evenings broadcasts I may be looking to launch official proceedings against the BBC in general and you personally for breaching the BBC guidelines.
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I sent a comment on this at 1740 - where is it?
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i must admit having seen what the chancelleris going to do to redress the 10p tax fiasco, that this special allowance to be paid to the lower paid, is only applicable to the under 65s
i, like thousands of other pensioners in this country, are surely, amognst the lower paid, so why , are we not to benefit for this rethink re the 10p. .
unfortunately perhaps we dont have the loudest voices, and as usual are bottom of the
heap
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Is phony concern for the low payed not electioneering? Especially a party that didn't believe in the minimum wage and wants the low payed to work more than 48hrs a week on a lower hourly rate to earn a decent wage.
It is not in their best interest to reduce the differential between rich and poor as it will devalue their rich supporters money.
The phony concern shown was all about undermining the Labour vote in the council and Mayoral elections because the conservatives have nothing positive to offer other than PR and hypocrisy.
I wonder how many times Nick Robinson will be accused of left wing bias on this page?
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This move reminds me of a bankrupt individual who borrows from a money lender to pay off his other debts thereby getting himself further and further into financial trouble. The P.M. is borrowing in order to get himself out of a political hole! It's a cheap trick and fools noone!
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I haven't seen any accusations of left wing bias
I have seen plenty of people who believe that Mr Robinson is too quick to post the line being spun to him.
He should be better than that
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In 2007 the police pay rise was staged because the additional 30 million pounds would have been inflationary.
On 13 May it is announced that inflation has gone from 2.5% to 3% using the ludicrously understated CPI.
On 13 May Darling announces 2.7 billion pound tax cut.
By my sums, that is nearly 100 times as much as the inflationary pay rise that was withheld.
So my question is, were Labour lying about the reason for staging the pay rise or are we in for 1970's style inflation?
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#76 - Shadwell the Old
I agree, your analysis of the higher rate payment is correct and my worries of actually paying more are unfounded (#62)
I shall now have a Frank Field moment and then go for a long lie down.
Thanks
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I wonder what we will see in the small-print which no doubt will emerge over the next few days or weeks.
The problem with any budget announcement from this government is that the full picture is never given.
Thus some in the media are still repeating the (false) mantra that in the March budget everyone earning over about £18000 was better off.
That was the headline, but the reality was different because the rise in the NI threshold was announced in the following days.
This meant that all "how does the budget affect you" publications in the aftermath of the budget were simply wrong.
It makes me wonder if the government's financial announcements and budgets should only be reported a few days later, when the small print attracts the light of day!
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I cannot believe this.
The moment he dropped the 10% rate (which was no more than a gimmick), it was obvious all he had to do was to raise the basic tax threshold, and reduce the 40% threshold to make up the difference. for weeks they said that was far to complex!!
wonderful what a bad week can do!
for reference i pay 40%, but i prefer this cheap fix to another whelter of gordon's "non tax ncreasing solutions"
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78 asks why on earth Brown makes everything so complicated. (1) it's second nature to him - he can't help micro-managing, because he knows best and has never lived on Planet Earth like the rest of us and (2) because of the way targets are measured. By 'giving' money to low-paid families, so their incomes are constant, and increasing tax on poor single people, for instance, he can announce that more children have been lifted out of poverty - because 'poverty' is defined as a relative term, if he makes everyone else poorer fewer children live on less than the 40% (I think) of median earnings defined as the poverty line - even if they are no better off. In my view it's pretty dishonest.
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So, Darling will have to find or borrow £2.7 billion to put right Brown's mistake.
It's odd that Nick think this panic measure makes the Tories look "wrong footed".
Let us not forget that when Brown sold off half of our gold reserves at the wrong time, at the wrong price, the cost to the taxpayer has been estimated at £2 billion.
It's a pity he didn't hang onto it for a rainy day!
Sorry to say the former "Iron Chancellor" (as the BBC referred to him) is looking a bit rusty.
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Nick -
You are not the only one - but I must object to your use of the expression "giveaway budget" here.
The State is not giving anything away - it is condescending to steal slightly less of its subjects' own money.
The real "giveaway" happens when the stolen money is spent.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
All that this furore reinforces is the realisation that most working people are 'employees' and therefore totally at the mercy of some politician in Government e.g .Brown/Darling.
That is not this Englishman's idea of freedom.
The late great John Lennon brutally delineated the plight of working people 'You're still ... peasants as far as I can see".
Nothing has changed since Lennon penned that.
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I'm puzzled by the Chancellor's use of the word 'household'.
What does it mean when he says:
"The remaining 1.1m households will see their loss at least halved.
"In other words, 80% of households are fully compensated, with the remaining 20% compensated by at least half."
Is a 'household' a different unit to an individual? What the heck is it?
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#96
Why, he means precisely what he has decided it means, of course (see Alice in Wonderland).
In my sometime career as a systems engineer, I noticed that 'thresholds' often cause difficulties.
So generally speaking, the less thresholds, the better.
Given the current problems, this rule would certainly be usefully applied to the tax system.
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Read the comments of kiwilegs and you will find the true definition of the term 'deluded'.
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As a Tax Consultant I am still not able to grasp how Mr Darling thinks that by removing the 10p tax rate and giving back £120 back can make any sense.
In 2002/03 10p Tax Rate = £192
In 2003/04 10p Tax Rate = £196
In 2004/05 10p Tax Rate = £202
In 2005/06 10p Tax Rate = £209
In 2006/07 10p Tax Rate = £215
In 2007/08 10p Tax Rate = £223
In 2008/09 10p Tax Abolished
Firstly it is like taking £223 and giving back £120 not to take into account that in 2008/09 the amound would actually have been around £230, so people are still worse off by around £110.
The only solution is to increase everyones tax codes to allow for £230 in real terms to be received by people in the Basic Rate Band to benefit, so the "allowance" given of £600 is not adequate and the increase sould be £1150 x 20% = £230
This would be the correct solution to be applied and HMRC can do this without much difficulty. The GOVT to need to cover some admin costs, but they caused the problem in the first place. I want the BBC to put this to the Treasury Minister and see if this is viable. I support those who will suffer for the change, especially as the £120 is not going to be paid for 6 moths, how are ordinary people going to manage with higher fuel costs, higher mortgagees, a 100% increase in Gas and about 92% increase in Electricity and the increase in CTAX and Parking fines, increase in utility bills, such as water rates. This is increasing poverty for the most vulnerable people in society.
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"It is high time that the press and media in this Country started to question Cameron as so far he has had it all his own way, he has been on kami kazi raids trying to fool the unsuspecting.
Some of the fools in this Country can be bought by glib words but the press and media should not fall into that category or will they?"
Yet another ridiculous post by kiwilegs. It is he that is the fool for believing everything he is told by a weak, ineffective, indecisive, incompetent excuse for a leader!!! The Press and The Media have tth public mood exactly right!
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Dutch5@100.
He is a she my old china, probably forgot more about politics than you know.
Now you answer a few questions.
When did anybody from either the press or media challenge Cameron?
The best decisions I have ever taken in my life I have dithered over.
Those that I was hasty with, mainly I lived to regret them.
What decision has Cameron ever taken?
when did he take it?
I can tell you a few.
He decided to be heir to Blair.
he has copied every move that Blair ever made from the day Blair took over as leader bar none.
He has voted against Labour Policies such as the minimum wage and now supports it.
He voted against labour School plans and now supports it.
He agreed with the Government on Northern rock then disagreed, he put forward some ideas then changed them less than a week later.
he then got onside and agreed with the government again then swiftly changed his mind.
He makes a fuss about the 10p tax but cannot say what he would do.
Do you really wish me to catalogue more I could go on for hours.
Who is the one being fooled by a weak ineffective leader did you say?
Lets see your money where your mouth is now!!
Answer if you can or even dare.
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#9 getridofgordonow, unexpicably or maybe not the people of Nantwich and Crewe have suddenly become on yours and many other postings the Good people of Nantwich and Crewe,I suppose if the Tories dont win the seat they will be back to the people of Nantwich and Crewe who wont be so Good, and you phoneys have the gall to say labour are electioneering
Another tory found Frank Field apologizing to Gordon Brown humiliating, because he was being honest [not a word tories are familiar with] last week if Field had crossed the house he could have taken Camerons place as leader of the shadow cabinet, a typical shallow tory remark,For Constable, Lennon also wrote the words "he jumped from the bus like a scalded spastic"so I dont feel we should attribute too much credit to what Lennon said.Tnorie have the raucus George Osbourne absolutoly right, I couldn't have said it better myself Cameron the bully and his smirking sidekick George what a useless team and not a policy between them,one other point I can't fail to mention, isnt it incredible that we suddenly have all these Tory economists posting their views here and yet there's not one in the Tory party, I sure that if they volunteered their services they would welcome them with open arms. Congratulations Nick Robinson at last we have one high profile news reporter who has seen Cameron and Osbourne for the shallow deviod of policy Johny come lately's that they are. they have been seen, tested, measured and found wanting. I hope now a few more journalists will see through the posturing of these phoneys.
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#100 thanks for giving kiwilegs a second posting what kiwilegs said was absolutley right and what we need is more people to add his remarks to their postings perhaps then we will be able to cast off the malaise of Cameron and Osbourne.
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Kiwilegs@101
Please, get real. Would you like to now perform the same exercise for when Labour was in opposition? Every major (and most minor) move made by the Tory government was opposed by the Labour party - in particular TB and GB. How many did they get rid of when they got into office? Practically none.
In addition, for the 18 months before the Labour party came to power this time around you couldn't get a hint of a policy from them. The answer given was always 1) we will stick to Tory spending plans for 2 years, 2) we cannot outline our policies yet as we do not know the state of the finances and 3) if we tell you our policies, the Tories will use them. Its what oppositions do in the period before a general election campaign.
As for the press challenging Cameron, clearly you watch different TV to me and read different newspapers. One example that springs immediately to mind is the furore over "Hug a Hoodie" (which he never actually said), or the BBCs new economics editor (I forget her name) having a go at him for wanting to encourage people to get / stay married.
Supporting your party is all very well, but plese, take off the blinkers.
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Sorry Kiwilegs I didn't relise that you are a ladyand if I may say so a very astute one, I agree totally withe your last posting also.
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Many thanks grandantidote
#103
Kiwilegs is female not male, easy error to make.
I have found take these Tories head on and one can demolish them quite easily.
It seems to me that they are made of of silly little debating students who hang onto Cam the Sham's every word.
Not hard to see some very immature people amongst them. Tackle them with facts and they run for cover.
I am still waiting for replies from 2 threads. What's the bet I will not get an answer?
I took them out of their comfort zone.
When they cannot fight it they resort to insult but then is it not a Tory being a Tory like the proverbial scorpian they cannot help it?
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# 104 try answering the questions Grawth,
you cant answer the question, so you revert to Camerons and Osbounse tactics , try to embarress your opponent then avoid giving a valid answer, go on grawth answer the lady or do you want to take the fifth as you have done before.
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Sorry Kiwilegs I didn't realise that you are a ladyand if I may say so a very astute one, I agree totally with your last posting also.
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I am truly disgusted to be back here, but Nick "Former Young Conservative Party Chairman" Robinson just told us that the next year is about perception of the Government by the voters, or more likely the conservative and other anti-HMG media.
This is absolutely silly tosh, on tv, on blogs, in bus queues . . . anywhere . . even in the minds of his bizarre admirers.
Politics is not always about political theatre. Especially now.
It is about management of our country's economy in the world wide economic Crisis, and input to the institutions which have influence on the world economy, including OPEC and the USA.
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It means that Nick Robinson is censor.
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Thank you for showing my comments, the second was in response to what was on my screen at that time.
Nps whether you show this or not
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Nick, Listened with interest to the Chancellor yesterday. a couple of questions, firstly why didn't anyone ask him how much interest he will have to pay on the £2.7B he is borrowing and secondly how long will it take to pay it off.
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grandantidote#107
Which questions would you like me to answer then?
The one about the press challenging Cameron, which I answered.
Or maybe the one about Cameron taking decisions (which is a ridiculous question anyway, because everyone takes decisions all the time), which since Kiwilegs had given us some examples of decisions allegedly taken by Cameron I chose to answer by demonstrating that all oppositions, and in particular the last Labour opposition, do exactly the same thing.
I ignored the only other two questions (did anyone want Kiwilegs to carry on for hours - obviously not, and who is being fooled by a weak leader - obviously Kiwilegs being fooled by Gordon).
I'm afraid your response just suggests that you don't bother reading what's actually written other than to register it as anti your point of view, before firing off what you think is a witty put down but actually just makes you look silly.
Some things you might like to notice:
I observed that all Tory proposals were opposed by TB and GB pre-1997. Not denied by you or Kiwilegs.
I invited Kiwilegs to offer any Tory government acts / decisions that had been reversed by Labour. No answer so far.
I pointed out that the Tories are doing EXACTLY what labour did between 95 and 97, because that's what oppositions do. Not denied by you or her.
Finally I gave two concrete examples of where the media have challenged Cameron - which is exactly what Kiwilegs had claimed never happened.
I didn't even bother pointing out that Labour has been reversing its own policy decisions - 10p tax rate, grant maintained schools as examples.
So, since I answered the questions, whereas neither you nor Kiwilegs has answered my points, I'll take it that you are trying "to embarress your opponent then avoid giving a valid answer".
Your turn.
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8:25 pm on 14 May 2008
The 10 p tax rate was intended as transitional .
It has been abolished and we now have the lowest standard rate of income tax almost anyone can remember.
Mrs Thatcher would have given Lord Howe's eye teeth for 20p Income Tax and 3% inflation, 3.7% even . . .
It may be reduced further before the next General Election. (my opinion)
Most poor people are entitled to Tax Credits
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/index.htm
Heaven knows precisely what Gordon Brown's intentions were when he planned the transition, but poor people are much better off than formerly.
The 10p tax rate has not been reversed, it was planed to be abolished and has been.
Apologise.
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Grawth.
Your answers are pathetic to say the least.
How long has there been a clocking on and off machine on this blog-site.?
Is this not a free Country?
Who gave you the right to decide how long I should stay on any site?
I am a retired lady who after a lifetime of toil is enjoying a hard earned retirement, is it Tory policy to grudge me that?
You have not answered one question I asked of you even after allowing for an absence of hours.
You are reverting to the usual Tory tactic of insult and run for cover.
The media have never challenged Cameron ever, he was asked one daft question about smoking do you really wish me to give you his reply.
He was asked about the 10p rate, remind me of his reply.
He was asked about Northern Rock indulge me with his answers please do..
In the meantime if you put up the question and answer I missed them, please repeat we will see how long it takes me to shoot it down in flames.
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# 113 grawth , No you have'nt answered the questions at all you have deliberately skipped over Kiwilegs questions in a rush to attempt to appear intelligent by quickly posing questions of your own well I am afraid that wont wash if you find in your infinite wisdom that your unable to sensibly answer the questions posed to you and Yougerap then perhaps you or he can answer my questions on "A political emergency" 97 or as I say will you make a few facetious typically Tory remarks without answering the question before moving on to some superfluous distracting questions of your own, and in answer to the question that has just sprung to your mind, yes they are usually superfluous.
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I'm not going to go over these 100 odd posts looking for what different people have said.
What i will say is this - Brown cannot sell himself. I know it should not matter, but with his PR as bad as it is (U-turns, Olympic fiasco, Wendy Alexander etc etc) he is doomed.
Whatever message he tries to get out, he hates to be pinned down so never really says anything, certainly not anything new.
Someone above calls Cameron a weak ineffective leader but at least his party is showing a united front in public. Labour is all over the place and the sole resposibility for this lies with Brown who clearly hates the idea that he needs to keep his party in the loop with his plans and hates even more the thought that some of them might want to contribute to policy.
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To kiwilegs and grandantidote
OK, lets try again. One of you says my answers are pathetic, the other says I haven't answered the questions - which is it.
Kiwilegs you claim I'm trying to tell you how long you should be on site for. I'd love to know where you think I said that, but anyway in the next breath you have a go at me for "not answering questions even after several hours" - this despite claiming my answers (that I obviously didn't give!) were pathetic. So I'm not allowed to dip in and out of the site when I feel like it?
You asked some questions in post 101. I answered them in post 104 (about half an hour later). Grandantidote then claimed I hadn't answered anything in post 107. When I read that (about 3 hours later) I replied in post 113, again answering your questions.
I'm not going to bother answering them again, you can read either of the two posts above.
I would also point out (again) that neither of you have denied / challenged / proved wrong any of the points I made in the above posts.
All you seem to do is bluster, accuse people of saying things they haven't, ignore what they actually have written, and refuse to answer any of the points put to you.
I have at least made an attempt to answer your questions, perhaps you would be so good as to answer mine. Either of you. Really, I don't care who.
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Grawth I have looked at your would be rely and answers on 104 and I fail to find them
Am I needing a visit to the optician?
Perhaps someone anyone can come to my aid and show me wher Grawth answered me.
Honestly is they can find it I will not accuse them of seeing things.
Now I will ask you once again.
What Daves answer when asked was he going to restore the 10p tax band.
What was his solution to the Northern Rock debacle.
Has he given up fags
Now as I have given you three comparitively easily answered questions which I did not find your reply to can you please engage your Brain of Britain and tell me what Daves policy onb these things are.
In other words what is he going to do about them/
Capiche!!!?
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Kiwilegs.
Questions end with question marks.
I answered every question you asked.
You never asked whether he would restore the 10p band. You STATED that he "cannot decide what he will do".
You never asked what his solution to Northern Rock was. You STATED that he kept changing his mind.
You never even mentioned cigarettes so I don't have a clue what you're going on about there.
I would observe that its not actually his job to present solutions to the government just to help them out of a hole. Its his job to call them to account when they get it wrong.
I would also observe that you still have answered a single one of my points, whereas I have answered every single QUESTION that you asked.
Good luck with your optician's appointment.
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I really hope the distorted views of kiwilegs and grandantidote do not represent more than a small, gullible minority. It could help to explain I suppose why Labour has managed to win 3 terms in office. The game is now up and it is time for a change!! The attacks on David Cameron show how much he is perceived as a threat to the staus quo!
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Grwath once again Silly little Tory boys reverting to insult. The cannot put up a decent cohesive argument so have to use diversionary tactics.
I know questions end with a question mark, reverting to those tactics is the sign of a weak argument and an even weaker flawed character.
I have even been known to have hunted the house high and low for my glasses and found them on top of my head, I have also even been known to sugar my tea twice, it is called getting old it cathes up with us all in time.
Now for the last time.
Is Dave going to restore the 10p tax band if he wins power?
What is his solution to Northern Rock?
I gave you my take on it what is yours.
What was Dave's answer?
Capiche.
Please note I did put in the question mark, now can you give me AN ANSWER!!!
.....................................
Dutchy5 a full explanation is on another thread personally I do see Cameron as somewhat of a threat for those gullible enough to swallow the guff from a man who wrote the last most right wing Conservative Manifesto for the Tory party and changed everything he believed in then when the people of Whitney voted him in less than two years later when he conned his way with the right wing Tories to vote for him as leader by leaving the EPP then he renegued on that promise to his own people..
Give me a good argument and I can change my mind what I cannot and will not do is change everything I believe in by doing a complete 90% turn in under two years just for poltical gain.
Hilton his Guru tells him everything he has to say along with Andy Coulson.
Everything is treated via soundbites. If it resonates with Joe public he will use it. How many Tory policies has he changed since becoming leader?
Who is the one being Gullible?
Put the question mark in to keep Grwath happy.
Look at the size of the Labour majority a large mountain to climb he will need a landslide. I doubt very much if that will be forthcoming, and yes Labour is well behind in the polls but we will take note of the by election figures in the North and see what they say when all the results are in.
Do not forget Dave is throwing everything he can at this by election along with the aid Lord Cashcrofts money.
BTW does Cashcroft pay UK taxes you know the guy who bank rolls the party along with the other Lord who has sex and drug party's?
Great example to the young aint it? Dave has still not answered any questions about drugs has he?
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"and yes Labour is well behind in the polls but we will take note of the by election figures in the North and see what they say when all the results are in."
Of course The North want to keep Gordon Brown in power. They are in receipt of so many grants and handouts at the expense of their southern cousins they would never countenance chopping off the hand that feeds them!
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At 05:43 am on 16 May 2008, Kiwilegs wrote:
Now for the last time.
Is Dave going to restore the 10p tax band if he wins power?
What is his solution to Northern Rock?
I gave you my take on it what is yours.
What was Dave's answer?
Capiche.
Cmon Gwarth. Don't let her get away with that. This diversionary tactic of blaming David Cameron for The Government's failings gets us nowhere.
David has no need to comment on the 10p fiasco because it wasn't of his making and he won't be in Office for another 2 years anyway.
It is Gordon Brown who needs to explain himself. Either he is stupid or he made a grave mistake.
The Northern Rock affair was characterised by Government dithering (no surprise there then) which made the situation much worse. This is my take on it!
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Typical Tory tactics cannot stand and ague one's corner with anything I have written so what do they resort to? (for Gwarth) ......
Call up the Cavalry for support.
Well bring in on lads see how fast I flatten it.
Such brave fellows what apologies for men.
In the meantime I have written a truthful diatribe lets see anybody try and pull that apart.
You pathetic poor excuse for a man.
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Kiwilegs
10p, no he won't, but then neither will GB. GB brought it in, trumpeting it as the fulfilment of his manifesto commeitment, and helping the low paid. GB then removed it, denied there were any losers, implied everyone else was stupid, said he wouldn't change it, said he couldn't rewrite the budget and said it would cost too much to fix. Then he admitted there were 5.3 million losers (was he too daft to realise this at the time, or did he just not care?). Now he says he HOPED that tax credits would catch most of the losers (why didn't he check the figures), and claims that 10p was only ever meant to be a temporary measure. For good measure he then claims that giving some money back to most of the losers, and spending another 2 billion on top of that has fixed the problem, is sound financial management, has nothing to do with the by-election or his current situation, and does not break his rule of only borrowing to invest.
By the way, if you can find ANY Labour statement dated before 2007 that says 10p is a temporary measure, I will post you a tenner.
DC really does not need to say anything, he can just stand by and watch Gordon dig. His job is to hold the government to account, not to provide them with solutions for them to nick. His response was (to paraphrase) , we wouldn't have done it in the first place, but if we came in to power tomorrow we would look closely at the finances and see what could be done. He doesn't need to say any more.
Northern Rock: I believe his solution was a period of administration (although I'm working from memory and rushing because I have to get my kids to pre-school so I can't research it at the mo). But again, look at why the situation is so bad in the first place. Gordon took regulation away from the bank of England and gave it to his newly created FSA. They didn't bother scrutinising what the banks were doing. When the problem came to light GB and his chums sat on it for a month or two, lost the opportunity for a quick sale to one of the big banks, then panicked when the news got out, refused to guarantee savings until it was too late, then wrote a blank cheque to keep the Rock afloat, paid money to businesses to bid for it, then decided they couldn't sell after all, before taking it into public ownership. We are now left with the very real prospect that the "loans" will not be paid back when due, thanks to the worsening economic / mortgage situation, so we will be even more out of pocket.
One other point, do you approve of spending hundreds of billions bailing out banks and nearly 3 billion on a by-election tax cut, whilst refusing to honour the police pay agreement because "30 million would be too inflationary"?
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Gwarth.
Boy am I going to have great sport with you. You are in my view a political lightweight.
I will play with you as a cat does with a mouse taking you further and further out of your depth.
Right down to details.
Gordon Brown brought the 10p tax band in initially as an interim measure. Opposed by the Tories it was done to help the really bad off but everybody benefitted.
It is not correct to say what Dave would do, no one can get an answer out of him yet.!
The money he has pumped into the economy to alter his decision which he freely admitted was wrong is exactly the same measure as GW Bush has taken to move the American economy on as that is in worse trouble than we are. Wre the Americans also wrong to take this measure? (note I put the question mark in for you dear)
Gordon Brown was on record as stating the 10p was an interim measure I cannot find it straight away nor will I look for it.
As for Northern Rock had we not baled that bank out it could have had a domino effect with other banks and they would all have ended up in crisis.
Is this what you wanted. The rot was stopped.
How much money has the tax-payer paid to prop up Northern Rock to date and type the punative rate of interest that HM government charges for that if required.
The USA had to do the same thing with one of their larger banks a few weeks later of course being a Tory I expect you think the Americans were also wrong in that course of action. But what would Dave do?
GB did give the banks independence and all Tories wished to do that in previous administrations Thatcher stopped it does Dave plan to alter it back ?
Nobody and I mean nobody could have forseen what happen 10 years into the future but I expect you will tell me Osborne can.
Yes I approve of baling out Northern Rock to halt any domino effect but just get your facts straight.
How much money to date has the bale out cost the tax-payer and how much would it have cost if he had not done iso?(question mark in again)
GB and Alstair Darling did try every avenue possible that is not dithering in my view that is being sure.
Of course you are going to tell me Dave would have made the decision earlier.
Why when every Tory and a lot of Labour MP's were screaming for help altering the mistake in the 10p tax band they went on about it for weeks, then when Brown eventually did listen apologise a fete which Tories find impossible to do can you turn round and say it was a by election gimmick???
Last but not least, would Dave have given police the full rise?
Please bear in mind that in Scotland Salmon gave them the full whack and they could not afford to employ extra police officer which they will be doing in this Country.
Now I have given you food for thought I hope I have answered all of your questions.
I have asked you some do you think I might just get a reply without having to call in help or waiting 2 days for you to research it and them take another ego flattener.
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Kiwilegs - earlier you shout down some arguments as Tories resorting to insults. You then go on to say "Silly little Tory Boys" and "you pathetic poor excuse for a man".
Now obviously those arguments are sound and logical. I quickly realised that I too was a silly little Tory poor excuse for a man and that your arguments therefore must be far superior.
However, I also realised that you are most probably an idiot.
It is the place of the Tory party in opposition to hold the Government to account when they make a mistake. They do not need to say they will reverse all of this Governments policies, in fact, with so little money in the coffers, huge public debt and the economy in a real mess, they alomost certainly will have to stick to Government spending plans for a couple of years after they are elected.
Until they have had a chance to study the books it is impossible for them to give a hugely detailed account of economic policy and they cannot see the books until after they are elected in two years time.
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Kiwilegs
You have, on several of these threads, made much of your supposed politeness, and had a right pop at others who you see as being rude. Here are just a selection of things you have said about other people posting here:
Silly, immature, scorpion, fools, pathetic, poor excuse for a man, liar, you beggar belief, do you also eat all you see, you will swallow anything.
In most cases, your insults come first, then someone responds, then you have a go at them for being insulting. Interesting tactic.
You have also mastered the Labour party tactic, as used by all ministers in interviews, as well as at PMQs, of ignoring the point put to you, ranting about the past, and repeating that no-one answers your questions. Well, several people have given you answers to most if not all of your questions, but you always either ignore them, or dismiss them, and then say "No-one has answered my questions". In other words, if I don't hear what I want to hear I'll ignore you.
A couple of other points while I'm on it. You ask people to answer your questions, then expect them to somehow understand that you mean answer my questions, and also treat the statements I make as if they were questions and answer them too.
You think it shows great moral fibre on your behalf that you apologised to someone via someone else, rather than directly to them!
You keep saying that the "10p rate has been dealt with - now move on", but you don't seem able to apply that to anything that happened 10-20 years ago.
And finally, you do keep asking what was so great about the last Tory government. Well, I'll accept they did some things wrong, but they did many things right. After all, Tony and Gordon haven't reversed many of them now, have they? Also, as I remember it, the 70s were pretty much broke and broken. Any government that could curb the power of the unions and dig us out of the huge hole left by the previous labour government is doing pretty well.
P.S. As I recall, unemployment passed 3 million, not the 4 million you quote, and according to Gordon's own figures he has removed 600,000 children from poverty. Now admittedly he sometimes tries to get away with rounding that up to 1 million, but its still nowhere near the 3 million you claim.
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Kiwi,
I take time to respond because I have other things to do in my life.
So, GB said it was an interim measure but you don't know when / where and can't be bothered to look for it. Actually, until this year, he didn't. Even the manifesto back in 97 said "It is our long term goal to introduce a 10p starting rate of tax". Notice the inclusion of "long term" and the non-existence of "temporary", or "and then remove it later, hurting the low paid".
Northern Rock. Yes they dithered. Yes they worried about how it might affect a possible election. Yes that made it worse. They had the opportunity to sort it way back at the start with a sale to Lloyds. They bottled it because Lloyds wanted some guarantees (incidentally less guarantees than are in place now). They had a chance to stop the run on the bank before it started by saying they would protect savings. They didn't. They backed out again.
Everything else is as a result of those two things.
As far as I know, there will be NO punitive interest charged on loans to prop up NR.
The Americans? Yes they did something similar. However, they acted within about 24 hours of the problem coming to light. There was NO run on the bank and it wasn't necessary to take it into public ownership - a quick private sale was arranged.
Why would I claim Osborne can see 10 years into the future? When did I say Gordon should have been able to. Although I do think anyone could have spotted that taking 5 billion per year out of the pension system might cause the odd hiccup along the way!
The reason people are still going on about 10p is that GB had to be dragged kicking and screaming into even admitting there was a problem in the first place. Even when he did get there, he spent weeks claiming there was no way to rewrite the budget and no money anyway, and then suddenly a week before the by-election we get this miraculous 2.7 billion appearing out of nowhere. Do you know what makes it worse though? IT STILL LEAVES THE LOWEST PAID OUT OF POCKET. Worse still, to compensate the remaining 1 million people the remaining £100 they have lost out (slight rounding here for easy numbers) would cost £100 million more. Meaning if they had borrowed 2.8 billion instead of 2.7 billion then no-one would have lost out.
Now, any chance of a reply without you congratulating yourself on your marvellous intellect, calling me pathetic, immature or a liar, and (as you said) without taking 2 days to research anything.
Incidentally, I've posted here every day for a while now. If you can find somewhere where I have answered you after 2 days I'll be surprised. As you said, get your facts straight.
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Fellow forummers, kiwilegs as you will have noticed loves to wind up her opponents. It doesn't really work because she purports to blindly support the loser that is Gordon Brown. Her best argument against David Cameron is that she suffered under Margaret Thatcher. Uhhhh! That was donkeys ago and has no relevance to the present day. Just ignore her. She has no legs to stand on!! Perhaps she should change her username to nolegstostandon. Damn and I promised myself not to respond to her delusional ravings!! I could be more cruel but what's the point?
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Gwarth.
Insults-No facts correct.
As for dutchy, strange, look at how many replies I gave hime before I answered back.
He is still squealing at my response.
Now ther is a punative rate set for Northern Rock and I am not going to enlighten you. And I did ask you how much up to date this debacle has cost the tapayer, once again a swift get out but no concrete answers how apt.
Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown have both recently stated that the 10 p was an interim rate as did Nigel Lawson most recently now you check your facts.
The correction DOES NOT! leave the lowest paid still out of pocket once again check your facts if the drop below a certain threshold they are helped.
How often did that happen under Tories? question mark placed in I hope you notice dear.
Liar is a word I have not and would never use to any blogger.
Please show where and when I did it.(Actually said it implied it yes stated it definately NO.)
I think you need to take a good look at the pensions and see how many holidays the greedy employers took in their share of the pensions raid.
Last but not least Nationalising any bank was the last thing Labour wanted to do, you still have not told me you wished a run on the Banking system and what the Tories would have done different to avoid it.
Once again I notice your compadre calling for Tory support.
He cannot take a female head on perhaps he would like to pull my hair out by the roots, after all that is what most spiteful boys do to the girls.
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How can brown sit there and say he is good at this money thing. When we engaged in the Illegal wars? brown could manage to pull the odd few billion out of his hat , why cant he do this now, and why is every news reporter scared to ask him any such pointed questions, as the Afghanistan drug problems. and the wars he helped create that never end. thats caused our problems in the first place. and at last blair is getting the message he is not wanted in Europe.
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Kiwi - a few short points for you
1) Its Grawth, not Gwarth, just like its Liberal Democrat, not Liberal.
2) Where have I insulted you? You, however, have insulted several people. Then you complain when someone does it to you.
3) If you say there is a punitive rate then of course I believe you, but isn't it a little on the petty side to refuse to enlighten us lesser mortals?
4) Similarly I do not know the cost so far of the Northern Rock debacle, partly because different figures get bandied around by different people, and it goes up month by month. Again you say you know the answer but refuse to tell us. So much for engaging in debate.
5) Those worst hit by 10p lost £232. They have been given back £120. Seems pretty clear to me. Let us know where this extra help is, because I'm sure most people would love to know.
6) I asked for a statement about 10p being temporary from BEFORE 2007. You seem to be suggesting that Gordon saying, after he had removed it, that it was always meant to be temporary, should be enough. That's hogwash. At no point when it was introduced, or prior to the announcement of its removal, did anyone say it was temporary.
7) Why do believe that implying someone is a liar is better than stating that someone is a liar. Would it be OK for me to point my finger at you and say "Pants on fire"? Of course not. So why is it OK for you?
8) Pensions raid = 5 billion per year for 11 years so far. Total 55 billion. Pensions black hole? Roughly the same size. Coincidence?
9) Yet again you have ignored all the points I did make. For your information, I answered the question as to what the Tories solution to the NR situation was a few posts ago. If you now want to know what they would have done differently in the first place (ie before all the dithering) well I think you have partially answered that yourself. You see, one of your biggest complaints about the Tories is that they are very quick to sell things off. I'm sure they would have done just that in this case too - facilitated a private buyout of NR, just like the Americans later did when one of their banks was in trouble.
10) As for your last paragraph. Ridiculous. You think anyone would debate with you differently if we thought you were a bloke? You think a light-hearted suggestion that people ignore wind-ups, followed by the poster's realisation that he had failed to follow his own advice is somehow a sinister tory plot to gang up on the poor female pensioner because we're all too scared to talk to you on our own? Again, ridiculous. Oh, by the way, I noticed you and grandantidote sharing stories about how bully buy tories always insult and run and shouldn't be given the time of day. Not ganging up on us are you?
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Why does she persist with such silly arguments and continue to peer at both GB and DC through a foot of sand? Beats me. There aren't many who share her views on here but heck I suppose it takes all sorts!
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Moderator no need to have it moderated just scrap it. @134. Not that important just delete.
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Grawth I apologise profusely for actually daring to get your name wrong. I offer more of a an apology for not saying Liberal democrat how foolish of me and how grand of you to bring both my grammar and forgetting to put democrat in to everybody's attention.
I am sure everyone will be content in the knowledge that we have an English teacher on the site ready to correct all the grammar errors.
Shame you have not answered the question I posed.
Could it be that is because I am female and you cannot get your head around a female daring to answer you back? Or could it be that as Conservative no one has of yet challenged you? (got the question mark in though dear I hope it keeps you happy.)
Horror upon horror this female does not know her place especially a Labour supporting one.
We the Tory must gang up on her let this one away with it and others will try it on. We cannot allow that Dave must remain unchallenged.
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kiwilegs wrote:
As for dutchy, strange, look at how many replies I gave hime before I answered back.
He is still squealing at my response.
I can assure you I have never squealed in response to an irrelevant point of view. I normally respect my elders but I make an exception in your case!
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I promised I wouldn't be cruel. Shall I break that promise? I'm seriously tempted! It wouldn't involve hair pulling either. Go on. Tempt me!!
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135.
From what I can gather you Tories have had a free unchallenged run on this site.
Now you have Liberals as well as Labour challenging you.
Now as grandantidote is of the same political colour as myself then it is appropriate that we join forces. Tories have been doing it for long enough get your head around the fact that you are not going to get it all your own way.
As an aside it is the height of bad manners and bad breeding to correct a persons grammar.
Everybody in this life have their own strengths and weaknesses. Because they do not shine in one subject that does not make them a failure.
Everybody's opinion is of the same equal value regardless of which political party they support.
But then as a Tory like the Scorpion you cannot help yourself.
With a bit of luck your hapless friend should have joined you having another go at me. H e probably has had to wait for a bit of dutch courage after the mauling he got this morning.
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Ooooooooohhhhhh!!!!!!! I think she's being sexist now. Moderator!!!!!
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I'm bored now. Time for a film and I don't think I'll bother to read the replies this time!!
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This is called a Dutchy5 kiwilegs sandwich!
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143.
Go and have a good lie down dear to gather your marbles. I am off too it really stimulates the old grey cells every now and again.
I hope you will now see that this female would not lie down and take the old hab-dab from any male or any tory.
xxxxx
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"Now you have Liberals as well as Labour*ites challenging you."
This threat is really scary, not!
"As an aside it is the height of bad manners and bad breeding to correct a person*s grammar."
On the contrary. I think it's rather helpful to be told where you are going wrong. It tends to distract from your argument.
"Everybody in this life have (*has) their own strengths and weaknesses. Because they do not shine in one subject (that) does not make them a failure.
Everybody's opinion is of the same equal value regardless of which political party they support."
On this point I tend to agree with you but it is impossible to stand idly by as your hard earned money is being washed down the drain by an incompetent government at the same time as you are being taxed to the hilt. To have it rammed home by those who fail to see it is doubly frustrating!
"But then as a Tory like the Scorpion you cannot help yourself.
With a bit of luck your hapless friend should have joined you having another go at me. He probably has had to wait for a bit of dutch courage after the mauling he got this morning."
What mauling? Have I missed something? It is GB who's been the subject of a severe mauling on virtually every one of these forum topics!
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Now I really must go. I have people to see and places to go!!
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wow, who is this crazy bat?
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"I hope you will now see that this female would not lie down and take the old hab-dab from any male or any tory.
xxxxx"
Kind of a comforting send off I suppose. I always respond to kisses. It's a weakness of mine unfortunately. I think you'll find however that the old 'habdab' as you call it is emanating from the mouths of Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, Ed Balls and Hazel Blears etc. I also respond quite badly to the term 'Tory'. It's kind of disrespectful and reminds me of those who call Manchester United 'ManU'. To bracket male with *tory in the same sentence is also rather telling in my view. Have you had a bad experience with men by chance?
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justjoe public. You've just made my day!! A brilliant one liner!
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Now I've really got to go. This has been fun!!
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Bad experience with men absolutely never, one man all of my life and we are still together.
I never bear grudges but will fight like a demon.
A tory is a Tory as far as I am concerned and I have no intention of changing.
As for correcting people I still feel it is a sign of bad manners and even worse breeding. Each to their own ability, mine is not because of a bad education is is usually due to the fact that my brain works faster than athiritic fingers. Others can be put off by it which is a shame we are all equal.
Man U, I cannot stand football but they would be my choice if I did, politics and knitting when I am able are my hobby as well as cooking.
Over and out!!!
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Kiwilegs,
I give up. I'm bored now. You ignore the answers given to your questions. You ignore the questions people ask you. You insult people and then complain when you get insulted.
Practically every post you make is along the lines of "I'm marvellous, I can run rings round pathetic immature Tories" before repeating the same drivel about no-one answering your questions.
Strangely you brag about being able to prove people wrong and then refuse to do so, which kind of makes me think you are just on here to wind people up, rather than engage in the debate.
Just so you know, I may well, in future, post responses to things you post, but I won't respond directly to you because you never, ever, debate. You simply ram the same script down everyone's throat again and again, no matter what you're asked.
In fact, let's see, won't answer questions, keeps bleating on about the last Tory government, sticks to the script no matter what the circumstances, and thinks DC is a salesman.
I see, you ARE Gordon Brown.
Just so you know Gordon, not many people trust you any more.
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Grawth.
Take a look at #135 then a long hard look at each time I contacted you.
Not ONCE! have you answered any question I put to you.
You skirted around it. toyed with it and still could not come up with an answer.
Then to add insult to injury you reverted to type and mmentioned grammar mistakes, and using children as an excuse.
Why not have another look and see if you can come with a more positive and truthful excuse and answer?
Please note a question mark in for your bebefit.
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None of this changes the fact that Gordon Brown has been an awful P.M. in his brief tenure. The two figures I think I loathe the most are Gordon himself mainly because of his constant boastful arrogance and Hazel Blears who licks his shoes constantly all over the media. She is also unrelenting in her vacuous comments about David Cameron. Quite what he has to do with our present mess I'm at a loss to explain. The others I am fairly ambivalent towards. Caroline Flint is quite fanciable while Jacqui Smith is pleasantly attractive. I have nothing against Ed Balls or David Milliband. It is just the policies that I find so objectionable!
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Dutchy5 ( 3:37 pm on 16 May etc 2008)
I think Tory comes from "drunken Irish Lord," it has been a prized political description by some.
I am a ManU fan, as is my son, not at all disrespectful.
The current PM is largely responsible for current:
20p in the £ income tax
3% inflation (CPI) compares favourably with Euro Zone etc
1.6% GDP growth (OPEC estimate)
5% Interest rate at the Bank of England
Government borrowing below half the rates in the 1992 real Recession.
Mrs Thatcher would have given Lord Howe's eye teeth, plus her husband's braces for an economic scenario approaching that.
Be very, very thankful.
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Am I bovvered?
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At 2:58 pm on 18 May 2008, Quietzapple wrote:
"Time you passed on this thread, and also your bizarre hatred of Gordon Brown."
I'll leave this thread and resume my love of Gordon Brown when I'm good and ready. You are entitled to your Government love in. Just don't expect me to follow suit!!
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Time you passed on this thread, and also your bizarre hatred of Gordon Brown.
Bizarre that the alt meaning of Dutchy is taboo here . . .
But:
3% Inflation, projected to peak at 3.6% (CPI)
0% Food Inflation predicted by Waitrose Managing Director
5% Bank rate of Interest
20p in the £ standard rate of Income Tax
HMG borrowing less than half the real terms borrowing in the 1992 Real Recession.
Ongoing growth predicted for the UK - 1.6% according to OPEC while other countries AGAIN go into another recession Gordon Brown (and now Alasdair Darling have steered clear of).
Well?
Mrs Thatcher would have given Dutchy and Dennis' most intimate appendages for those economic conditions most of the time . . .
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Quietzapple
3% inflation, but when Gordon quotes figures from the Tory past he neglects to mention that is from the higher RPI, currently around 5% and going up. Also, since CPI apparently includes every day essentials like DVD players, but excludes those luxury items like loaves of bread I'm sure we all have a lot of confidence in it.
0% food interest. When exactly, and how much will they be squeezing the suppliers to keep their own profits up, and how will they covered the massively increased cost of transporting the food round the country?
5% Interest - so? That's BoE, not GB (and incidentally given that inflation is supposed to be controlled by BoE its difficult to see where GB gets involved, unless its by refusing the inflationary 30 million pay costs for the police, but allowing a 2.7 billion pre-election tax bribe).
20% tax, OK, but increased NI tax (now at 11%), NI paid on a much higher salary than before, and more people in higher tax bands because of repeated refusal to raise thresholds.
HMG borrowing. I suggest you add in the PFI money and the Northern Rock / bank bailout money on top of that, because those figures are never included.
Apart from that I'm getting increasingly tired of hearing Gordon and his mates going on about how he's the right man for now because he's steered the economy through tough times before! When exactly were these tough times then? And why didn't he tell everyone about them at the time instead of crowing about how brilliant he was with his no boom and bust economic miracle.
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Guys. Type 'quietzapple' into Google and see what you come up with. Quite enlightening!
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