By-election reactions
Crewe: By-elections don't change governments. However, how parties react to by-elections can change governments.
The self-proclaimed "heir to Blair" is trying to use the Crewe and Nantwich result to declare New Labour dead and at the same time he is trying to claim leadership of the Blair coalition for himself.
"I think what happened was that, for Labour, it was the end of being the party of aspiration, it was the end of being the party of opportunity: it was the end of New Labour."
David Cameron knows that what brought him victory this morning was the willingness of non-Tories to give him a chance or, at least, to lend him their vote. Expect him to continue his strategy of "love bombing" (as they call it in Tory HQ) those who traditionally protest by voting Lib Dem.
Gordon Brown's response has been a version of that old Clinton cliche "It's the economy, stupid". He's promising action to relieve the financial pressure voters are feeling. One cabinet minister told me that he's got to stop talking about the need for "a five-year tractor plan" and promising that "whatever happens you get tractors" - in other words, less talk about the long term and more action now.
The danger for the prime minister is this. If, once he's told people he's listening, and once he's told them he feels their hurt, and once he takes action, things don't get better for Labour some may conclude that "It's the leadership, stupid". Another cabinet minister shocked me by comparing Mr Brown with Michael Foot and expressing regret that the party had never had the courage to remove Foot.
There will be no leadership challenge now. There may never be one. If, however, Gordon Brown doesn't learn the right lessons from this by-election he would be unwise to assume that no-one would dare try.
I'm 
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Hi Nick,
RE: The Labour Leadership
Serious question – which up and coming minister of genuine substance would currently want the job?
Imagine the scenario. Even if Brown volunteered to go [unlikely] and a bloody leadership contest was thus avoided - the new incumbent would face a clarion of calls to hold an immediate General election. After all, would the public really stomach consecutive unelected PM’s?
Refusing to hold a vote, would poison any potential honeymoon, acquiescing to such a request, could be terminal. Against the current economic backdrop, the best our new PM could hope for is a waver thin majority. Four or five years, of fighting off inevitable rebellions, an uncertain economic climate etc… hardly conducive to a successful Premiership.
Surely any aspiring cabinet minister would be better off, bidding his time and taking the reins after a 2010 General Election defeat?
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#1 - Of course you're right, none of them will. Maybe you'll get someone like a Michael Howard character prepared to take the reins to limit the damage at the next election. But the serious leadership contenders (Millibands, Balls (heaven help us all), etc will all try to melt into the background until the dust has settled on Gordon's demise.
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Completely agree, the one thing GB has on his side, the fact nobody else want's this posion chalice.
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Hi Nick,
One other final point - can the Labour Party actually afford the financial cost of a leadership contest? Especially if it led to a General Election within six months?
Just a thought!
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The government is rumbled and people are not going to be fooled any more by it.
No amount of spin is going to conceal the fact that ten years of soaring taxation under Brown have brought mostly personal misery. There is very little to show for it in health, education crime, transport infrastructure, penal policy.
The choice is between paying through the nose for public services and not getting, or not paying for them and not getting them.
In the threadbare economic conditions which Labour traditionally passes on people are ready to adopt the latter.
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I don't think anybody will want to pick up the chalice either. This leaves our dear leader in a position to do pretty well as he likes, he can't get any more unpopular and nobody wants the job. If he wants to put through a few unpopular measures now is the time to do it. Help !
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Labour lost touch with their roots and took their "cultural" voters for granted. Result - alienation.
Unfortunately, this is the same mistake the Conservatives made before them. (Remember "safe" Cheltenham, anyone?).
Tony C will have to do better than simply take over the Tony B fan club if he is to get *his* alienated voters back.
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You just have to contract Gordon Brown's responses with Camerons to see the problem.
Cameron entered into a natural dialog with his audience.
Gordon sounded like one of his ministers trotting out pre-defined sound bites and phrases about the performance of the government.
Funny how Gordon says that he 'listens' but always ends up getting the 'message' that he wanted to address all along.
Will this government ever stop trying to tell us what we are unhappy with (i.e. "what the public are worried about is..."); and start genuinely listening to what we are unhappy about?
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From a neutral. Gordon Brown is a poor leader and communicator. Perhaps a nice guy with a temper. He has avoided and has no electoral mandate (no general election in 2007), has lost policy vision with crisis management and centralist solutions. The wheels have come off his government. He has / is condemming his party to 4 years in opposition. 10pThere is no way back; whether new leader or general election! Its gone too far and like the Titanic, some now blindly clinging to the helm for power, others manning the lifeboats.
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The trouble for Labour is not necessarily no one wanting to replace the cowardly one, but that there's no obvious replacement. For more than ten years Labour has been all about two men, no one else got a look in, which means the rest of the cabinet is just a collection of non-entities.
I watched Question Time a couple of weeks ago (the one with Heseltine on) and the Labour guy was talked of as a "future leader", but I'd never heard of him. He's a cabinet minister, I believe, but I'd forgotten his name about thirty seconds after the programme ended.
Mind you, I suppose it's to his advantage that I can't remember his name, since the names of cabinet ministers I can remember is largely due to their stupidity making an impact on me, such as Harman, Blears, Balls and Darling.
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From a neutral. Gordon Brown is a poor leader and communicator. Perhaps a nice guy with a temper. He has avoided and has no electoral mandate (no general election in 2007), has lost policy vision with crisis management and centralist solutions. The wheels have come off his government. He has / is condemming his party to 4 years in opposition. 10p abolition was a huge iceberg to hit in the choppy economic seas. Its the credibility crunch with the credit crunch. There is no way back; whether new leader or general election! Its gone too far and like the Titanic, some now blindly clinging to the helm for power, others manning the lifeboats.
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Ubidenmark is right, as a result of the failed policies of the 70's we then had to endure high inflaltion and unemployment. I heard Ms Blears on Question Time blaming the Tories for this. They had to clear up the mess, like they will again.
Brown has wasted 10 years, any fool can have growth with massive borrowing and high taxation. If he is an intelectual giant then I am a genius!
We still have another 2 years to go, god knows what further damage he can do.
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Just watched the interview with Tamsin Dunwoody:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7416024.stm
And it looks as if Crewe and Nantwich had a lucky escape. Her mother may well have been a titan, but she just came across as incredibly vacuous and stupid.
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Yey another blog by Mr Robinson (ex Chairman of Young Conseravtives, university pal of David Cameron) that could have equality written by Conservative Party HQ.
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There most likely won't be a leadership contest because the possible contenders are all too aware that they will be consigned to another failed leader after the election in 2010. Most likely, the Milibands and Balls' of this world will wait until the Conservatives win by a landslide in the next election and then challenge Brown, creating the image of a fresh start and new direction. Opposition was always more fun anyway...
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What make me fearful about last night's by-election result is how people have short memories
Don’t forget people, These are the Tories who were responsible for the closure of the mining industrial,
the steel industrial, 3 million unemployment, the selling off of our major state assets. Remember
Good people of Nantwich and Crewe these Tories are the sons and daughters of the same people
Who inflicted poverty and desperation on millions of good people up and down the length of this country. Lest we forget. Don’t be taken in by Young David who will promise you that his Party as changed ( O’ wait is that a pig that as just flew past my window)
I agree the Labour Party needs a kick to bring it back on track but be careful we don’t kick it to death
Because we will live to regret the day.
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I don't think Labour will get rid of Gordon just yet. They can't be seen to have no confidence in their leader, even if behind the scenes, a leadership challenge is gatherig momentum. Who would actually want the job? Harriet would want to stand for leader only if there were prospects, and I suspect these prospects are sliding downhill as I write.
Gordon started off by blaming a mid-term by-election for the dire results. By the time the Mayoral contest was won by Boris, he was nowhere to be seen, and even wheeled Harriet out to do his dirty work. He didn't even bother to visit Crewe or Nantwich and Harriet cancelled her visit at the last minute.
Gordon now says the results were caused by the economy. What utter tosh! The good people of Crewe and Nantwich did what the rest of us would give our eye teeth to do. They got rid of Labour.
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#13 -
Gwyneth Dunwoody was never a Titan.
She may well have been a Titaness.
(And yes, there was one Labour MP who remembered what it was all about).
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More of a bye-bye election for Gordon, really!!!
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#16 - hmm, I think we've heard a lot of this before haven't we? Love her or loathe her, Margaret Thatcher inherited a country that was dead on its feet. The way you paint the picture implies she was given the keys to the garden of Eden when she took over.
The sad thing is, by the next election whoever takes over (Conservatives or next generation Labour) will again be handed a bankrupt and "knackered" country.
As #12 so eloquently put it "any fool can have growth with massive borrowing and high taxation"...
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O HAPPY DAY, O HAPPY DAY, believe me we have not seen anything yet. Start digging holes and hiding your cash better still get out of Dodge for a few years. This man now know even with a divine blessing he will not be re elected-oops he never was in the first place. The middle classes are going to be hammered he will grind every last penny out of you to give to the "POOR". You know who I mean the chavs who haven't, don't and won't ever work the so called poverty stricken. So poor they can only afford one mondeo and a 40" flat panel so the can watch the full package of Sky movies and Sport. All the while smoking their 40 cigs a day while swilling the takeaways down with the crate of beer the get through each day. Stretch of the imagination - no I see it every day. The child poverty he is suppose to have relieved is still rife the same kids are still running around with their backsides hanging out their trousers while their parents live the high life on tax payers money. I wish I could afford the holidays these people have, I haven't been on holiday for years-so much for hard work.
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Naturally enough, pbrpbr forgets, or never knew, that it was Labour that started the sale of public assets in the 1970s, when it began the sale of the government's share-holding in British Patroleum.
In the public sector, many of the privatised industries were starved of investment and looted by the Treasury.
The mining and steel industries were chronically uncompetitive and an illustration of the structural weakness in the economy. Now, although smaller is scale, these industries are profitable.
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Hi subedeithemomgol,
I understand your point about no obvious replacement from Brown. Large swaths of the current cabinet are relative unknowns’ will little face/name recognition amongst the general public. Yet, apart from the Tories on this blog, who really knew much about David Cameron before he stood for the Conservative leadership? I didn’t and I consider myself something of a political animal.
Of course, it is harder for someone to come out of the blue and grab the keys to #10. The public would be suspicious of a complete unknown, but if the relevant candidate could demonstrate some gravitas during the campaign, then his or her previous anonymity could be an advantage i.e. they could present themselves as the genuine change candidate.
However, as I argue above – who would want to want the party in its present shape? Certainly nobody with a future; still I suppose there is always Jack Straw for caretaker. It might be a poisoned chalice, but it would be his only realistic change of being PM [however brief]. It’s just a crying shame that the New Labour project had to end like this.
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BTW was it just me or did anybody-else see shades of Obama’s language in Cameron’s call RE: ‘coalition for change’? Either way, a nice sound-bite, but he needs to be careful – if he’s too slick, people will come to believe Gordon’s salesman’s jibe.
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#5:
"very little to show for it in health, education, crime, transport infrastructure" the UK has had more hospitals built that Western Europe combined over the last ten years. my old school was waiting 50 years, 50 years, before funding was granted to pay to replace the old mobile home classrooms in 2002. heard of crossrail? overall crime down 30%? record numbers of police? you can dislike Labours tax and spend policies, its a question of ideology, but to deny that changes have been made is just totally unfair and untrue and demeans the author of that comment, not Gordon Brown or the Labour Party
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im not an economist, but isnt high taxation generally considered an inhibitor to growth? most conservative party leaders think so! perhaps #12 and #20 know something Friedman and von Hayek dont!
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"Yey another blog by Mr Robinson (ex Chairman of Young Conseravtives, university pal of David Cameron) that could have equality written by Conservative Party HQ." #14
Methinks there is a bit of shooting of messengers going on here! Or at least the very attitude that is bringing New Labour to its knees: specifically a tendency to hear only what you want to hear, which will be about problems that appear fairly easy to resolve without making truly substantial changes.
It's never *just the economy, stupid!
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16,
Its comments like this that really get my blood boiling. I'm no Tory but for the love of all things Holy! What a absolute bit of rubbish.
Here let me re-phrase your post for you...
------------------------------------------
What make me fearful about the last election result is how people have short memories
Dont forget people, these are the Labourites who were responsible for
The mass strike action and union militancy,
An IMF backed bankrupt economy,
Rampant inflation and the piles of dead and rubbish in the streets.
Remember Good people of Nantwich and Crewe these Labourites are the sons and daughters of the same people Who inflicted poverty and desperation on millions of good people up and down the length of this country. Lest we forget. Dont be taken in by Young Tony who will promise you that his Party as changed ( Oh wait is that a pig that as just flew past my window) I agree the Tory needs a kick to bring it back on track but be careful we don't kick it to death Because we will live to regret the day.
--------------------------------------------
Now do you see your folly?
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It's worth noting that if Thatcher had buckled at the knees over Poll Tax, as Gordon has over 10p, history would be different. The public are angry and they are suddenly getting some remarkable opportunities of saying so. Could this become a habit? Perhaps politics in Britain is getting real at long last. When did we last care enough to actually register an opinion? Is apathy on the way out?
Watch out for leadership talk. Watch out for early election talk. Anyone fancy some of that petrol tax back? Tried saying so? I don't mean the Poujadist demos of a few years back, the French do that better than us, but part of a reasoned political patform? Mr Clegg? Mr Cameron? Anyone?
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There is no one of substance to replace Gordon Brown.
There are no longer any big hitters in the Cabinet; most are career politicians who may be great academically but cannot relate to real people and have no understanding of how people actually live.
Even good old Prezza was a career politician who spent only a few years as a "working man" before jumping on the Parliamentary gravy train at 28.
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We have to remember that anyone under the age of 35 has probably never really suffered at the hands of an incompetent government.
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All this talk of potential Leaders not wanting to challenge for fear of "unfavourable" conditions in the coming years reminds me of why Politics is dead to most people these days. People do not enter Politics to better the lot of their fellow man, they enter Politics for power and self gain.
Miliband and Balls being the latest prime examples.
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all those who say there is no-one left to replace brown, are exactly correct.
i noticed when brown took office how those who were popular were kept close to brown in the cabinet, and when they fought it out for the deputy leadership, brown spotted an opportunity.
peter hain, took donations after recommendations from brown's camp
harriet harman, again popular within the party and reasonably popular with the public, also advised to take funds that brown's camp spotted were unacceptable.
john reid, big hitter within the party and a threat to brown, was moved sideways, and made irrelevant, until he stepped down from the cabinet, and cast adrift
ive always seen this as brown's plan from the moment he took over.
there is one person though that has a bit more about him than the other nodding dogs, one hilary benn, comes from a background of principles and turned down brown's advice of accepting funding from dodgy sources that could have damaged him...
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I'll sure we'll see a few bribes err, 'measures to help the hard-working people of Britain' soon.
It will not work.
The only thing that could work is a turnaround in the economy but I think the downturn is going to continue (and hurt a lot of working people in the process) for too long to help Labour retain power.
Post the General Election in 2010, Labour will still be relatively strong in Scotland and a few parts of England, where there is still a real loathing of the Tories.
But the new political landscape in 2010, with the Tories in Westminster, the SNP in Holyrood and Plaid in Cardiff will be a barren place indeed for Labour.
Every dog has his day, and Labour has badly corrupted its 'brand' but there should always be room for a 'socialist' party.
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Crewe and Nantwich: a rubbish result for Labour - but a bad one for the Tories, too. Why? because it means (a) that Labour are favourites to lose the next General Election and the Tories are favourites to win it (b) the public are not just tired of and fed up with Labour because it has been around for 11 years. They are frustrated with the government's failures to address key issues such as rising inequality, an unfair tax system, a financial sector out of control, a shortage of cheap housing, surging energy bills, post office closures, job insecurity, harrassment of professionals in the name of accountability,a disastrous foreign policy. I could add that another issue looms - environmental crisis - which the government talks about a lot but does little to address in practice.
Why has Labour failed on all these questions? Because new Labour was founded on a deal with Thatcherism: it accepted the free market (and US hegemony in a global capitalist order) in return for being allowed the space to humanise it with welfare measures and investment in public services - a high spend, low tax, non-interventionist politico-economic order. Now we are in the grip of problems which cannot be resolved that way. There are large areas of life where the market does not work: we have reached, in fact gone beyond, the limit of what it should do. All the issues I mentioned above (with the exception of harrassment of professionals) require more public investment and intervention - a return to collectivism if you like, whether led by the State, local authorities, or co-operatives. This is why it's all bad news for the Tories as well: they are still addicted to the small state, free market outlook which brought in Thatcher and which new Labour broadly accepted. So they have no answers any more than Gordon Brown does.
It looks as if young Dave will have to learn on the job, and discover that the only way to be a successful PM is to be Thatcherism's grave digger and the architect of a new, Macmillanesque paternalistic Toryism. Otherwise, he will be the Right Wing Ramsay Macdonald. Thatcher's heirs will scream and shout in protest. But as one shrewd old Tory (Baldwin) said, 'the dogs may bark, but the caravan moves on'.
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I think digitalNews junkie (#29) makes a good point about career politicians in the current cabinet.
As well as not being able to connect with real people, i also doubt any of them could re-enthuse the wider party (and then the public) - which is what they would need to get people out knocking doors for them at the next general election.
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Before anybody else says it . . .
The "five-year tractor plan" approach never was particularly 'tractive, was it?
Have a nice weekend everyone, I'm off.
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It's sign of the paucity of talent and charisma on the Labour front benches that Ed Balls is listed as a possible candidate after the Boy Wonder. Let me help here, only spiteful Tories enthuse over David Milliband, they know how the man/boy projects. Broadsheet columnists applaud Boy Wonder for his intelligence and natural manner, forgetting that only a few million of us are as intelligent but hardly any of us are so clueless about how the world turns (see also: Blair, Anthony and Brown, Gordon under 'Failed To Deliver'). Desperate Labour supporters claim virtues for David Milliband in the same way desperate Lib Dem's have found virtues in the hopeless Clegg. So long as Cameron manages not to ingest vast quantities of street drugs, drop his trousers, or appear raving drunk at PMQ, friendly imprecision over policy and only direction of travel type pronouncements are required from hereon in.
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A bit of Truth might be a novel approach for NewLab.
As it is, we get the standard NewLab Rent-a-Gob appearing on the media channels
telling us that
'Things are not as they are. Things are what we tell you they are.
And we know you want more tax, more personal intrusion, more bin taxes and anything else we can think up, because we say that is all good for you'
Whereas if Truth ever dares to raise its head in the NewLab party again, then a bit of Reality rather than NewLab self-delusion might emerge.
The good folk of Crewe and Nantwich have told NewLab that they are a million miles away from getting what it is about.
Bravo for them.
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David Milliband wil be Prime Minister by years end.Or David Cameron will be in 2 years time.Its up to New Labour.
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Faced with the voters' recent verdicts, GB's mantra seems to be that he is the right person to take the country through difficult economic times. If so, why does he not go back to being Chancellor of the Exchequer and allow someone else to have a go at beign PM? On second thoughts, maybe we would not be facing such difficult economic times if he had not been Chancellor! So maybe an early General Election would be best answer for the country.
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prbprb" lest we forget" the winter of discontent it was forcast it would take the incoming conservative party 30 years to put right the total mess the Labour Party left the country in the bankrupt sick man of Europe. The claim of full employment now they have moved from the dole to the sick and the rest now work for the government circa 25% of the working population are now in the employ of GB.
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Nick,
In some ways, there are echoes of the 60's and the interim leader that was Sir Alec Douglas-Home. In turn, Gordon Brown must have realised when the plagues and floods hit the UK last year that his time was nigh. There is nothing he could have done or can still do that will prevent his demise. Having jumped off a cliff some time ago, he is now fast approaching the bottom.
The good news is that we will soon have the chance to choose someone that we are willing to entrust with the government of the country for more than one or two years, someone who will hopefully provide a smaller government that is less intrusive or authoriatarian and trusts its citizens. Perhaps we might even get a say on the EU Treaty and other important issues.
Every cloud has a silver lining.
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Just read this article ...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7416223.stm
about Labour listening to voters concerns etc. It had a quote from the PM stating..
"And my task is to steer the British economy through what have been very difficult times in every country of the world."
Excuse my ignorance but isn't it the Chancellors job not his? Isn't his to sort out the big stuff like policy and running a government? Surely it's a bit like a CEO doing what a CFO should do? Madness!
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Re 21.
Labour do not want poverty to be improved. This is their bread and butter vote.
They need the chav vote as the chavs are quite happy to milk the benefit system while we are taxed more and more to pay for them. It is solid Labour vote.
29m now working? how many are east european workers doing the jobs they won't. how many chavs are on incapacity benefit and not counted in the system?
Labour have had 11 years to improve education but in reality all they ever wanted was to pump money into the system withhout seeing real benefits.
It says something when their only tactic at Crewe was to go for "class war" when they want/need the poor to be poor so they can represent them.
Times are changing, we will no longer accept been taken for fools.
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I saw a lady on BBC's Breakfast programme this morning, who said she voted Labour because she felt they are better in terms of looking after her and her four kids.
My sense was she genuinely believed this to be the case. I also reckon many others *want* to believe that Labour will look after them and the Country, because of what they've been brought up to believe.
So, how great the disillusionment when this proves to be a false belief. Also, what will happen to their votes in this new landscape, when they don't automatically vote for Labour?
Personally, I can't see anyone in this Administration undoing what's happened since 1997, and changing policy in the dramatic way that is needed. However, I am often wrong!
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When Gordon Brown says he is listening, what he means is he is listening to his advisers, Harriet Harman and others who no doubt reinforce his view that the Government just need to explain it's policies better - not tear them all up and start again, that would mean admitting to more mistakes.
But this is what needs to happen - forget the megalomaniac schemes like ID cards - concentrate on the bread and butter issues.
Cost of fuel too high? Simple - cut the tax on it.
Worried about cannabis? Don't - focus on things that matter.
Want to waste time on locking people up for longer? Don't - pay the police the money they were awarded and let them do their job.Want to help the less well off? Simple: don't ask them to pay more tax - especially when company directors are getting £1m bonuses.
For every current Labour policy there is a better one - the public knows that, it's not rocket science - the problem is GB and his barmy army don't.
I predict that GB will be ousted or will be forced to go to the country long before two years time.
John Major's 'Put up or shut up' challenge when he lost the support of his party and called an election, comes to mind.
As days turn into weeks and months, GB's authority will weaken even more, until it becomes obvious even to him that he needs to do something decisive.
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Might I make a prediction? A year or two before the 2025 General Election (it might, at a pinch, be the 2030 General Election, Labour (or whichever party is by then the voice of the caring/radical left) will grab a safe Tory seat with a massive swing. Nick's successor at the BBC will comment that this means the writing is pretty much on the wall for the Tories, who had made such a promising start after their landslide victory in 2010. The Tory leadership will put on a brave face and promise that loads of new policies are being prepared and that it was elected to do a job and, by jingo, the voter expects them to hang on and do that job. Meanwhile, one morning, the sun rises in the East. Or to put it another way, the dogs bark and the caravan moves on.
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rockhippo (41) has a short memory. do you remember who began the mass migration of long-term unemployed onto the sick benefit? yep, old mary t, because of course her labour isnt workign campaign, when followed by three million unemployed, began to look a little ironic. and as for public sector share of workforce, ill trust the likes of David Smith, economics writer on the times, who has said that public sector has stayed steady at around 19% - lets not forget when those discs were lost, brown was blamed for HMRC being undertstaffed, after he sacked tens of thousands of civil servants. so that claim doesnt really stick
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It's an amazing result and I'm glad the Labour class war strategy failed. Tony Blair was right when he said the class war is over. Most people these days aspire to be wealthy and send their children to good schools. The Labour Party attacked the very thing that got them elected, the 'aspirational classes' and look where it got them. It shows Gordon Brown's confusion that's for sure. I hope the Tories campaign in Henley dressed up in top hats and toff regalia, I think that would be very amusing. I watched the BBC special last night and Chris Bryant gave the same answer to virtually every question. I don't know how many times he used the phrase 'personal finances' but it was far too many... :)
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JHWilson #34
Perfect summary of people's discontent! Also very insightful analysis of NL's deal with Thatcherism. Hence the uneasy partnering of private enterprise with public service, where schools are run by people who belong on The Apprentice and South African health companies profit from the public purse without having to do any work.
But wait! Our glorious leader says this temporary blip in his electoral fortunes is actually down to the crisis in the American housing Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Do they realise that when they say they are listening, then do the pre-ordained spiel (eg Blears on question time, Ed Miliband on the World at One), then carry on as before, it just angers and alienates us all even more?
Do you really have to 'listen' to find out people will hate you for doubling the tax of the lowest earners who then have to come back to you cap in hand with a correctly filled out tax credit claim that will probably be miscalculated anyway. Oh, and not everyone is eligible in the first place. And to try to bribe the rest of us with £120 that we'll eventually have to pay back anyway!
Do you have to 'listen' to realise that people don't want to be forced to log their genetic details on a government database along with every text, phone call and email they ever send? Did my grandfather fight in WW2 for us to set up a high-tech British Stasi?
I guess the one benefit of total surveillance is that they will know what we all think!
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We are going through a mirror-image of the Decline and Fall of the Conservative Empire between 1995 and 1997. It will be interesting to see if GB (or whoever is the Prime Minister) will try to go through the full five-year term and defy Post-WWII history to become the first Prime Minister to retain power. (The nearest, I think, was John Major calling the 1992 election just before 5 years were up.)
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shellingout wrote:
'We have to remember that anyone under the age of 35 has probably never really suffered at the hands of an incompetent government'.
Oh really. Where have you been the past 11 years? This old chestnut needs to be thrown back into the fire!
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I think this is the best set of comments I have seen on this blog. Some excellent comments have been made from people on both sides of the divide.
Surely it illustrates that we are all feeling the same, even though we might prefer different ways out of the mess?
I totally agree with #8 about the difference between Cameron's ability to talk naturally about what's happening and Brown's capacity to lecture us on what we are feeling. His pathetic lieutenants also insist on trotting out the latest party line. During the BBc coverage of the election early this morning, Bryant said 3 times "I make no bones about this result" and guess what? Horrible Harriet trotted out the same phrase on the BBC Braekfast program this morning. There's no point in listening to them as they have nothing to say which relates to the real situation.
I don't believe Labour have been humiliated because we are most concerned about fuel prices, food prices, mortgages etc. We would have the same problems if the Tories were in power.
The real problems are that Labour has betrayed us on all the issues listed throughout this blog but still cannot face up to that fact and have robbed the cupboard bare so are left with no wriggle room now that times have got harder. because of all the
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Cameron is in Ayr today at the Scottish Tory Conference, so have a look at the audience - the average age must be c 70 - and although he is a shoo-in for No 10 come 2010 his party will still languish around the 15 point mark in Scotland.
He does not want to be the Prime Minister of England, but that will be his de facto position, which will make relations between him and Alex Salmond really interesting!
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I used to think (a few weeks ago) that the problem was mainly McCavity Brown but I'm no longer sure - the recent performances of Harman, Milliband, Darling, Jacqui Smith and other make me want to ditch the lot of them.
So I conclude reluctantly that it doesn't matter that none of the current Cabinet want to challenge Brown. I don't want a new Labour leader, I want shot of New Labour.
I don't particularly want a Tory government either, ideally I'd like to see a hung Parliament. But I'd rather give Cameron a chance than have another two years of this lot.
General Election NOW.
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Crewe sends a message to the decaying Labour party.
Whoever leads the Tory presentational thrust should realise that we don't want an "heir to Blair".
Blair skated on thin ice: politically, morally and economically. Please not another in the near future.
Blair deceived the country about Weapons of Mass Destruction.
(I was very happy to go along with the idea of international intervention to remove ruling classes who despised and abused their own people, as in Iraq, Zimbabwe, Burma, Sudan, etc... But that was not the spoken reason for intervention. I never guessed that a UK government would lie - or "spin" out of control. The Hutton Inquiry was a disaster. The evidence said that Blair was wrong. Hutton said it was "OK" to adjust the facts.
Dr Kelly died, but there has not been a formal inquest. Why not? Hutton did not challenge witnesses - or make non-appearing witnesses turn up - as a coroner would. So why was Tony so sad when a real WMD expert died? Perhaps he realised that was his last contact with reality. Certainly the last contact with the majority of voters who can't afford to buy 7 houses.)
Should we feel sorry for Brown? No.
He screwed up a reasonably favourable economic position by allowing stupid spends on rediculous projects and creating more and more government funded positions.
Am I against good government spending? NO.
Just against taking money away from people who can't afford it, then making them beg to get it back, once it has been through an expensive layer of government staff.
If the Tories want to build a new future, just dump any association with the Blair/Brown disaster.
And try to persuade people that real life exists, whatever government ministers say.
And just make it easier for ordinary people to live their lives without a constant hail of laws, rules and regulations plummeting down from Parliament and the atrocious EU.
In other words, make life simpler.
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Whilst I welcome the back of GB and all who surround him, I don't want a complete whitewash and no credible opposition. It is not healthy for a democracy. Having seen the damage that Blair did with his massive majority, I hope Cameron and his crew respect the country better than Nu Lab have done and learn from Nu Lab and their downfall.
Now, can we have an election please?
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When Government say they are listening to us, do they actually mean they are monitoring us (using CCTV, ID databases, recording internet communications)?
A good start would be to realise it's not the same thing!
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I really think the By Election result speaks for itself although the Labour Front Bench would have you think that it's merely mid term blues or The People feeling the pinch as Harriet Harman says. Other excuses and scaremongerings rolled out include 'the labour supporters stayed at home in protest', 'the media influenced the voters', 'the Electorate do not realise what a good job Gordon Brown has done'., 'people haven't seen through David Cameron's lack of policies', 'people have forgotten what happened under Margaret Thatcher', 'the global economy is to blame for our present problems and that is something we have no control over', ' 'etc, etc., etc. The list is endless and we've heard it all before yet still it is trotted out as regular as clockwork.
The plain fact is that Gordon Brown and his Government are just plain incompetent on a frightening scale. More scary still is the fact that they don't realise it because they are more worried about preserving their power and their inflated salaries.
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As a passionate socialist, I used to dread the tories getting back in.
but now, labour seem to have moved so far to the right; it probably won't actually make that much difference.
and this reveals labour's true problem; they have completely deserted the indigenous working class of this country, and said class have realised it - and turned round and done the same back to them.
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That’s a pretty fair report under the circumstances, Nick. I must admit, I was as shocked by Frank Field's petty attack as you seem to be over the Michael Foot thing. Not only is the jab wrong it's another example of how Labour stab each other in the back whenever they run into a little difficulty. I bang on about the bully boy Cameron not being able to go the distance but this is just as bad in its own way. Really, politicians need to develop some maturity.
My take on the by-election is voting was really a matter of market hysteria. Cameron has very deliberately engineered an attention bubble and this is driving his stock way above its fundamentals. This is classic Mugabe style politics and why Cameron is only talking of building a coalition now he's trying to assert the image of a market leader. In reality, we know it's mostly the CBI and Murdoch who are too scared to come out openly. The Tories haven't changed.
Some people mark me down as a Labour supporter. Actually, I'm not. I've been a member of both Liberal and Conservative parties in the past and have never voted Labour. My issue is with good governance and, I believe, the Labour Party and Gordon Brown is best positioned to deliver that. They've lost the plot a bit but neither the Liberals or Tories have it in them yet to help Britain get over systemic issues that impede national improvement.
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Of course those with serious potenital will not want to move now; but that is to miss the point. The people who will decide are the back benchers.
There probably will not be an 18% swing to Cameron at a general election; that would put some 200+ labuor seats at risk.
BUT, any reasonable swing in that direction will jeapordise quite a long gravy-train of seats, for which labour MP's will murder their grannies to keep. If they see no improvement in GB's popularity by the time of the party conferences - and I doubt that they will, for even the myth that he was a decent chancellor will by then have been laid to rest - they will have his head with no less alacrity than their counterparts had that of the Blessed Margaret.
If only we could hasten the end with a solid vote of no confidence; for that is the reality of the voters position.
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Tamsin Dunwoody led a very negative and nasty campaign playing to people's (supposed) class prejudices which backfired spectacularly.
However, Labour's real obstacle is Gordon's unpopularity and his equally unpopular policies: Abolishing 10p tax fiasco, ID cards, fuel tax, road pricing, inheritance tax, soaring council tax, tax on rubbish collection, HIPS (a tax on home owners), broken promise on EU constitution referendum, extended detention without trial, extension of snooping powers to local councils, withholding anti dementia drugs from people with Alzheimer's disease etc etc.
Far from being a steady hand on the tiller, Gordon has steered the good ship New Labour onto the rocks.
Rearranging the deck chairs now will make no difference. He is sunk!
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with the present economic situation those on low wages are really feeling it, if safe Labour seats now vote Tory we need to think what the commons will look like at a general election, could Labour be reduced to 50 seats as the Scots and Welsh might also reduce Labour MPs with nationalist votes?
Labour might slip into 3rd place across the UK because the backlash seems to be spreading and its just a case of seeing how long they will hold on and how much their policies and mistakes will cost the taxpayers?
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If the poor and those on low wages are hit much further with the price hikes and extra costs of the economic situation will their unhappiness translate into a summer of discontent and resentment, perhaps we will see civil disorder/riots on a scale similar to the 1980s?
The divisions that Labour have entrenched into the UK/our society might finally show that the glue between communities and those that govern us has lost cohesion and the run up to the next election might tear the nation apart as respect for Brown will drop further until he becomes a laughing stock by the time he is booted out, no ministers will support him as they keep their powder dry to hopefully take over in opposition? What do you think Nick, I know the middle classes are feeling militant so the working class and poor must be angry!
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CEH (#61)
I prefer it when you write plain English as in this post, rather than the All Hail Blessed Leader stuff or cryptic Buddhist allusion. After all, we are supposed to be commenting on Nick's blog.
I for one never assumed your political afficiliation (and genuinely don't care about the personal politics of any of the posters on this blog - I don't think they matter provided the comments are well argued not just loyal spin or invective).
But you throw away a sustainable line of arugument again, by comparing Cameron to Mugabe. There is no way Notting Hill Dave can be fairly likened to the thug running Zimbabwe into the ground.
Personally I disagree with your view that New Labour have delivered good governance or will do so in the future but that's a discussion one can continue....
In the meantime. a plea to all posters - can we focus on what Nick has posted and our views on its accuracy and / or implidacations, and put away the name calling and point scoring, please?
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#33 - Every dog has its day
#47 - The dogs bark and the caravan moves on
Plenty of healthy debate about how governments of both persuasions have brought the country to its knees, and some successes from each.
The first past the post system can produce large majorities and it would seem, without exception, this also leads to increasing government disconnection from the electorate and electoral disenchantment. Hence big swings at elections. Or, as the late Lord Acton put it, Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
There's an interesting experiment going on away from Westminster. Does some form of proportional representation have to produce Italian style chaos? The First Minister and SNP Government in Scotland are forced to live on their wits; to agree accommodations with other parties to get their legislation through; and to have constant regard to the wishes of the electorate. As it happens the Mr Salmond can by no means be described as a boring orator.
Surely the way to restore some degree of regard for Westminster politics and keep politicians' feet on the ground is to get rid of the systems that produces such corruptingly huge majorities. Put some form of proportional representation in its place and keep our elected representatives on their toes.
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You made some fair comment and I agree with this bit. Arguing and playing to the gallery just sucks the life out of reasonable discussion. When things get that bad people generally benefit from a break and, I note, there's a convenient parliamentary break coming up soon. That might help people clear their heads and refocus on the substantive issues in a more friendly way.
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@21 @44
I thought the Cl*ss war was supposed to be over?
What was it the Nasty labour people called the conservative? T*ff wasn't it?
This feigning offence at a stupid by-election stunt is ridiculous. Why not sue them for damages? I wouldn't put it past them.
@59 mutleys pup
Do you want people to discuss different points of view or have a conservative self congratulation session? Many of those are valid points. But you conservatives genuinly feel you own this site. Perhaps because you are talking to Nick Robinson a famous former young Conservative. I hope he is now an unbiased political reporter. So anyone can make valid points who chooses. Don't be so smug You did nothing, You are a fan watching from the sidelines.
This is boring! far too many people parroting Conservative party nonsense they've read in the papers.
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Charles_E_H is back again, saying he is not a fan of Labour, but likes the idea of good governance.
Charles, over many years, I voted for Tory, Labour, Liberal and Independent candidates at differing levels of election and depending on which candidate seemed to offer the best vision at that level.
You talk of good governance. Exactly when has the present administration achieved that?
Brown (and his mates) say that he "saw us through" the problems of the floods. So why are local area authorities still waiting for the cash injection he promised? Good governance? No.
Brown "saw us through" the foot and mouth problems that he oversaw because he wouldn't invest enough to ensure that a government department was properly run and administered. Good governance? No.
Brown "saw us through" the catastrophic DEFRA failure to pass on grants to farmers (which resulted in the EU imposing fines of GBP300Million for maladministration). Good governance? No - just another hit.
Brown "saw us through" spiralling levels of debt, with no intervention to control the catastrophic exposure of the "common man". Good governance? Bullstuff.
Brown and Blair were all in favour of education. Me too. But how can you claim good governance, when people with great grades have no real understanding of the language and require remedial attention when they reach university level?
Seeking positive outcomes is what we all need to aim for.
Making it easier for people to state their positive outcomes, when the outcome is frankly poor has not helped this country for a decade.
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The core strategy of Blair in his last days was actually very, very good. It hit all the bullet points and a lot of people were spooked that they agreed with the government. It was a bit like riding a bicylce for the first time.
Gordon Brown tends towards strategy and markets. He's very, very good at it but not so great at practicality and charisma. He started hitting the sweet spot in about January but appearing too authoritarian and twitchy undermined that.
Britain has problems with governance, business and, yes, the public. The fundamentals haven't moved much beyond the agrarian pattern of the Magna Carta era. This is an individual and collective problem people need to get over.
On the issue of "All Hail Blessed Leader!" and the Zen stuff, I can't write for shit. It was mostly just an attempt to spring a more positive approach and explain some fundamentals. Like Gordon, reworking a few things seems appropriate.
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It is my conviction that citizens wouldn't mind paying taxes so much, if they had the impression that their tax pounds would be spent well. But they don't.
New Labour has raised public spending considerably, but the overall quality of public services hasn't risen equally.
It is easy to spend tax money. Unfortunately, since bureaucracies have little incentive to spend money efficiently, because there is no need to achieve real results or make a profit, tax money is likely to be wasted on overhead costs and pork.
A politician, any politician, is basically a salesman in illusions and should be mistrusted. Cameron makes fewer promises than Blair/Brown, but it appears to me that the Conservatives are more likely to keep an eye on expenses than New Labour. I would rather give Cameron a chance to prove himself than see this current misery continue.
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I think this would be "a good day to bury bad news."
Kind Regards
Baron VonRipwinkle De Parkbench
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Charles_E_Hardwidge @79 - Re the self-criticism expressed in your last paragraph: I'd say your thinking is on par with your writing.
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My post #74 should have read
Charles_E_Hardwidge @71
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I think this would be "a good day to bury the Labour Party."
It's a dead parrot. It no longer exists. It has deceased. It has stopped breathing. It is no more. It is an ex-parrot, etc.
Problem is it doesn't know it - we are in for maybe as long as two years of Zombie Government.
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Labour have already identified cost savings and the Tories haven't been able to find a single dime more. Now, putting X number of people on the dole, reorganising departments, and making sure the public get the services they're paying for doesn't happen with a magic wave of the wand and isn't without its issues.
Any idiot can be risk averse or cut costs. The really hard work comes from having a vision and the resilience to develop that vision. I get no sense the Tories have either vision or resilience. It's all just promises that haven't been tested. That's not competence, that's propoganda. And that's not good for us or the Tories.
Labour have screwed up but the Tories still haven't changed. A win at the next general election is way, way too early for them. For their own good they need time to build better policies and work through the deep changes they still need to make as a party and people.
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Charles_E_H, I agree that, from a personal perspective, the core strategy of Tony Blair was very, very good.
For him.
How many ex-PMs would have been able, or willing, to accumulate so much money, so rapidly after giving up the reins of power?
The guy who headed a football with Kevin Keegan to show he was a "man of the people". And hardly glances back at the chaos he left behind...
I have no idea how you could equate Cameron and the Tories with a Mugabe style government.
Did they send out their minions to beat people who would not vote for them? I don't think so.
Thankfully, nor did any party. Although you seem to think that anyone who fails to follow a certain political line has head up ar"".
For God's sake get real.
If you introduce 1,000 laws, because you can, it means nothing unless you follow through.
If you introduce 10 laws and follow them up and make sure they work, you get a bonus point.
I hope that Cameron and his new mob will realise that.
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Let's just hope that old Gordon Bean has the same level of contact with the real world as CEH.
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Nick
There is a distinctly cynical and derogatory tone to your "heir of Blair" comment; isn't the BBC - in theory at least - meant to be impartial? I had hoped the departure of New Labour apologist Andrew Marr might usher in a brave new world of BBC balance, clearly not.
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I wonder what New Labour think of Tony Blair's "Clunking Fist" comment now? Perhaps Gordon can tell us what it feels like!
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Charles_E_H you state that GB is very, very good at strategy.
How can you justify that?
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"@80, Leedsbenny wrote:
Nick
There is a distinctly cynical and derogatory tone to your "heir of Blair" comment; isn't the BBC - in theory at least - meant to be impartial? I had hoped the departure of New Labour apologist Andrew Marr might usher in a brave new world of BBC balance, clearly not."
A lot of these angry letters are always complaining about left wing bias. Everyone is left wing bias to them and they will never be satisfied.
I perceive that the BBC is swaying towards the conservative party, and I think there is a certain amount of right wing steering going on with these left bias complaints. Therefore The conservatives are not being challenged adequately. Commentators should stand up to them if the complaint is clearly wrong and not try to appease it.
Its like that Mary Whithouse drama thats on soon. She used to do the same, she had too much power over television.
I'm not saying any perceived BBC bias lost the election for Labour. I have been concerned about this sort of message power ever since the North East was under attack by angry HYS tories during the long running Northern Rock story. Which seemed to go on as long as the stream of '£3000 each northern rock tax to buy votes for the Labour heartland', messages kept coming in. That type message was untrue but was allowed to go on. and probably did a lot of damage for the sake of appeasing obsessive Gordon Brown haters.
Thats why I don't fully trust the BBC anymore.
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The problem with New Labour is that it is now Old Hat. Joan Collins looks younger - and is a lot more fun. But at least they ought to be able to find some work in pantomime or TV when they finally admit defeat.
Brown is like Scrooge trying to appear like Father Christmas - but we know he doesn't approve of toys and wants to send us all off to bed early so he can count the cash.
Hazel Blears is like some mad lollipop lady but could double for Julie Walters.
The Milli bands are like the smart kids at school that everyone hates - so the City rather than the theatre is the obvious place for them.
Harriet Harman is the witch from "The Wizard of Oz" (or Teflon Tony, who skipped town with a few million pounds) so she'd do well in Panto.
Jacquie Smith is straight out of "Birds of a Feather."
Ed Balls: "The Price is Right
Alastair Darling: back to "Black Adder"
I could go on but I won't torment myself. Paradoxically, I think that the much-criticised Hazel and Alastair are among the more genuine people in the government.
Any other suggested employment for out-of-work political actors? We don't want them scrounging off the state, do we?
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Re: "I perceive that the BBC is swaying towards the conservative party."
The BBC is not perfect but these kind of charges do not stand up. It's enough that the politicans have to hammer the BBC when they don't like their programs but I don't think we should join in.
The BBC has a hard job to do to remain impartial and I think it is in their blood to do that to the best of their ability. What annoys me sometimes is that they are too impartial! But that is their job.
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You'd have to be completely mad to want to lead the labour party anytime in the next 2 years, so Gordon Brown's definitely (as he admits) the best man for the job.
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The greatest put down is by Dominc Lawson recently in the Indy that said that Gordon Brown was never elected by the people, and actually was never voted by members the Labour Party. Via Dunfermaline East/Kirkaldy/Granita he is now Prime Minister.
Now voters have to choose him. And they don't actually like what is on offer.
Also comments about "who would want the job" are missing the acidic comment by Thatcher (referring to Howe's subtle attempt to take her position) that everyone who ever enters politics, despite their vain denials, has their eyes on only one job as their goal. No one enters politics to be a back bencher, junior minister. It is the reason why politians are that different breed.
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There's been a huge increase of pro-Tory supporters hitting Nick's comments section and, so I hear, the Guardian. It looks a bit suspicious but is easily explained as a mob of lad mag reading office wallahs looking for a fight. Once Cameron's post by-election star dims they'll melt away soon enough.
The bully wants to disrupt and scare you, and if you let that take hold they'll keep pushing until you crumble or snap. I wouldn't worry about it. It's only words on the screen. What's important is you write good stuff and have a good time. Heck, I need something to read.
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Re: "Heck, I need something to read."
You could always read Gordon Brown's book on 'courage' - I wonder if he has? I know I haven't.
Why are we being so beastly to Gordon?
It's probably the only real 'power' we have.
At least we are not living in China.
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"And my task is to steer the British economy through what have been very difficult times in every country of the world."
Excuse my ignorance but isn't it the Chancellors job not his? Isn't his to sort out the big stuff like policy and running a government? #43
The PM is also First Lord of the Treasury, so he is ultimately responsible for the economy.
The bottom line is that Labour have screwed up. Never mind Iraq and Afghanistan; these issues are not enough to remove Labour.
The economy is the danger for them. When people cannot afford to live, you are asking for trouble.
Electricity/gas prices are out of control. But VAT returns are needed.
Fuel costs are spiralling. But tax income is needed.
The bottom line is that the Government has over-borrowed. Check the TRUE level of borrowing, mostly through PFI. No use blaming the Tories for implementing the original schemes, not when Labour expanded them.
Government inflation figures are false. People are not stupid, they can see how much everything costs.
But who could replace Gordon Brown? Possibly Jack Straw, but I don't see him doing so. The only politician that could have replaced him and won an election was Robin Cook. Personally, I want to see Ed Balls challenge him and win, only to have a PM turfed out at the next general election.
Posters such as the good old Charles H assume that people like me who bash Labour are blue-nosed Tories. Not so, I voted Labour at the last general and Scottish elections, only to stop the maniacs of the SNP getting in.
But I cannot vote for a party that is costing me far more than the Tories ever did. I can live with 15% interest, but not with 25% inflation and 50% annual increases on energy costs.
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Mostly, I just see a bunch of people that are argumentative and negative all the time. That's not discussion it's a rant, and that just saps the life out of any forum. I'm not totally happy with everything Labour have done nor think the Tories have reformed, but can be reasonable. Anything that loses touch with that is a dead duck.
The British generally have low confidence and poor social skills. It explains a lot of problems with macho-management and drink problems. Both parliament and online comment is tainted by this and it's worth reflecting on, and developing the opportunities and relationships to move beyond that. At least, I think so.
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"But who could replace Gordon Brown? Possibly Jack Straw, but I don't see him doing so?"
I don't think you're alone there. What about one of the dialetcs from Dr Who"?
"The only politician that could have replaced him and won an election was Robin Cook."
Yes but who would have elected a garden gnome for Prime Minister?
Any other bright ideas? What about Postman Pat?
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A very good bye election for NuLabour. NuLabour good bye.
I see Chuck_E_Hogwash from The Fairy Times is still writing his agony aunt columns.
I find an earlier quote of his very interesting:
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Unlike his predecessors Gordon Brown is almost perfectly positioned to develop governance that properly unites the head of government and the heart of the people.
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I suppose you mean the diatribe thats been trotted out a number of times by NuLabour
- Winning Hearts and Minds. When in fact they practiced Emptying Purses and Wallets!
I also find another of your offerings at #77 amusing:
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Labour have already identified cost savings and the Tories haven't.
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You mean the Commons public accounts committee that comprises NuLabour, Tory and Lib/Dem members.
It said the Treasury was spending the most on employees' workspace and urged it to "set a better example".
Naw, not the treasury, that was run by Mr Prudence Bean. Surely that must be wrong!
Whilst we are on the subject of savings, I note that a number of bloggers have also floated the idea of building or converting a building into flats to reduce the costs of MPs staying in London. May I suggest the Tower of London?
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It is not quite so easy to remove a sitting Labour Prime Minister than people imagine. Unlike the Conservatives's men in grey suits.
Yes I think there will be rumblings from the usual fools like the Labour Party's Prentice, plus Alan Simpson from Nottingham. This pair of destructive misguided divided fools along with a few others bring about the demise of any part and a press and media only too willing to lap up what they say then print and report that part whilst quickly dismissing those that will defend Gordon Brown.
This is what the press and media wish to hear as it sells newspapers and makes for TV ratings.
Not to mention it gives oxygen to fools like these who are only ever in the news when they have something destructive to say. They will never get any higher as they are still far too much from the loony left and they think returning to their lost cause will gain Labour support back it will not. The centre ground is where we have to remain.
Can I also bring it to people's attention.
Many years ago, the electorate in a staunchly Labour seat woke up to find they had a Tory MP. horror upon horrors!
At the next election it would have been easier to weigh the votes for Labour, they outed the Tory on his neck big time, now if anyone doubts this please look back into the history of Geoff Hoons seat in Sutton-in-Ashfield this is the seat I mean. Check it out for yourselves, do not take my word for it.
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I don’t know whether its true, but I have just been told through a reliable source that Betting shop chains have just opened their books and are now placing odds for the date when Great Britain PLC will be placed into receivership.
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#84: bryanjames
I would like to ad the following to your list:
Teflon Tony - Cash in the attic
Mr Bean - Flog it
Hazel Blears - Footballers wives
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I would like to share this snippet from a local rag at a place I was staying at whilst working away from home. I thought this article perfectly encapsulates Teflon Tonys Britain:
Common Sense RIP
Today we mourn the passing of an old and dear friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years.
No-one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.
He will be remembered for having cultivated lessons as “life isn’t always fair”, and “maybe it was my fault”.
Common Sense lived by sound financial policies (don’t spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults are in charge, not children). His health began to deteriorate rapidly after reports were published about a six year old boy who had been charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate. A subsequent report that a teacher had been fired for reprimanding an unruly student sadly hastened his decline.
Things went from bad to worse when new laws were enacted that required schools to obtain parental consent to administer paracetamol, sun lotion or sticking plasters but were not permitted to inform parents when their under-age daughters were pregnant or wanted an abortion. He finally lost the will to live when the courts decided it was illegal to defend oneself from a burglar in one’s own home, but it was perfectly acceptable for that burglar to sue the victim for assault.
Common Sense’s parents, Truth and Trust, pre-deceased him, as did his daughter, Discretion, along with his sons, Responsibility and Reason. He is survived by his three step-brothers, I know my rights, Someone Else is to Blame and I’m a victim. R.I.P.
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88# Charles, the more I read of your posts the more I think here lies pure common sense being spoken for a change. Common sense is not quite so common as one would imagine.
I think it would do a lot the power of good to read what you have to say, digest it then intelligently comment on it.
I am Labour to the backbone, I will never try to diguise it and I will never be ashamed of the fact either.
I too think this Cameron et-al thing is for the moment a bandwagon that people are jumping on, but as fast as things turned sour for Brown it will for Cameron, the difference being, Brown will survive it Cameron will not, if things go pear shaped.
He is nothing more than a shallow PR salesman. The public will soon turn back to substance over spin.
Bear in mind it is his Guru Hilton and focus groups who are pulling Camerons strings, he says what people wish to hear not aways that which is right. Any mistakes can be dropped sharply.
And it is Andy Coulson's job to get it out to his pals in the press and media asap. Brown needs to be quicker off the mark following this up, and mounting challenges.
......................................
95# Welcome to the great Tory revival.
Keep talking the economy down and let's talk ourselves into a reccession why don't we?
Tory plan, talk down the state the country is in, make it seem 10 times worse than it really is. Talk us into reccession then reap a self fulfilling prophesy.
Scare people half to death, bring your Country to it's knees, have the bookies make a killing, Well done!
Welcome to the new world of Cameron and the Conservatives our would be saviours.
Who are going to alter the world, bring down the price of a barrel of oil, give more to the poor, take more children out of poverty, make the prices in the Supermarkets cheaper, give the Police their full rise. Introduce tax-cuts without cutting services. Eat beetroot and **** cucumbers. Just like that!
All things to all men and a gullible few who will believe all they say just as they would eat all they see.
Welcome to Tory UK or could that be Tory Utopia.
In a pig's ear it will!
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In the aftermath of recent local elections and indeed the by-election at Crewe and Nantwich, the media at large and commenters on this blog have discussed a possible change of PM and
even suggested possible candidates. May I suggest Mr Beans office cleaner, they would posses the qualities required to clean up Westminster and even be capable of applying some Vanish to remove the Brown stain.
Small piece of advice, from lessons learned at the Home Office, check the person is not an illegal immigrant first
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This by-election result would have been repeated in most English constituencies.
It would probably not have happened in Scotland at all and in only isolated parts of Wales.
Whatever the outcome of the next GE, the next Govt needs to do something about the UK's democratic format.
Current Devolution arrangements are not acceptable to the English. The old Union is unacceptable to the non-English.
We need greater self-governence for each UK nation and fair co-operation on those few issues of common interest, eg defence.
The UK might then stand a chance of retiaining the significant benefits of being British, with each UK nation enjoying the freedom to grow in its own way.
I suspect the devolvement of political control would unleash a creative, cultural and economic vibrance in all nations - and we might all be a bit happier living together on the same island!!
Time for some vision on this issue.
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"Mostly, I just see a bunch of people that are argumentative and negative all the time. That's not discussion it's a rant, and that just saps the life out of any forum. I'm not totally happy with everything Labour have done nor think the Tories have reformed, but can be reasonable. Anything that loses touch with that is a dead duck."
Charles, it's called a debate.
Many of your comments are full of praise about the Prime Minister and Labour. I have yet to see you make a harsh criticism.
I have a keen interest in politics. Perhaps I do get on the old soap box occasionally. But prices are rising left, right and centre. The only thing helping to keep inflation down are consumer goods. Retailers are desperate to sell, hence all the low prices.
I've also served in the Armed Forces. I was made redundant under a Tory Government. Now I see what's left being crucified by Labour, who do be honest have never been supportive of the Armed Forces anyway.
Labour's big problem is that they throw money at projects without apparently thinking things through properly. Look at the costs of the Olympics! That to me is as close to lying as I have ever seen. How can a cabinet minister "forget" about VAT?
The Government is now resorting to blaming the Tories when they were in power. That was 11 years ago. If they cannot correct these problems then they deserve to lose.
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85. At 10:58 pm on 23 May 2008, bryanjames wrote:
Re dhwilkinson@83 : "I perceive that the BBC is swaying towards the conservative party."
The BBC is not perfect but these kind of charges do not stand up. It's enough that the politicans have to hammer the BBC when they don't like their programs but I don't think we should join in.
The BBC has a hard job to do to remain impartial and I think it is in their blood to do that to the best of their ability. What annoys me sometimes is that they are too impartial! But that is their job."
I know that but i would suggest that your snippet is unrepresentative of what I said. I also said the constant stream of left bias comments don't stand up but they still come. I was suggesting that maybe the bbc has been moving in minute unnoticable steps to the right. due to these complaints
Mary Whitehouse was a letter, writing moral guardian, busy body that complained to the BBC and often got what she wanted. If she had blogs instead of snail mail she and many others like her would have had a field day. Which I 'suggest' they 'might' be I don't really know. and again I do not perceive this idea directly influenced the election.
I am not a conspiracy theorist and shy away from looking like one. But I always found the timing of the announcement of Northern Rock emergency funding suspiceous. Friday night just before the popular Jonathan Ross show, Why? is their a reasonable explanation? when many people were watching and just before a weekend, plenty of time to panic. late summer reasonable weather. Apparently it was a leek. I again 'suggest' that the 'Run on the Bank' (not the problem it did have!) was manufactured by an interested party(not the BBC). and the media has been heavily focused on Gordon Brown ever since. Encouraged by 'Have your Say' Brown haters many of who are cheating and lieing. Its all very convenient for the conservatives and I kind of suspect some sort of organised propaganda is responsible for a lot of messages. But I don't really know. Robert Peston spun it to look as bad as possible but that could have
sensationalism. It seemed to me that the Northern Rock and the North east was being damaged because it was a Gordon Browns Labour heartland. and all sorts of rubbish was flying around. Therefore I hate Anti Gordon Brown messages. Sorry this is long but I have to make sure I'm not misunderstood/misquoted again.
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100# Hi Bill,
I would agree with you that this result for the moment would be repeated in most English Constituencies and probably not in Scotland. I will not go into this Scots-English thistle and rose thing with you as we along with our friend from The Old Ancient Kingdom have covered that ground a lot.
Do not be baffled by the name kiwilegs either as truth of the matter is, I did not have enough letters in my name to sign on and was unaware that I could have underscored it.
After a mishap our grandchildren told me I was walking like a kiwi hence the silly name which I will change.
It is also not an anagram of wiki contrary to what other people think.
However I will keep it until all my colleagues join me here, then sort it, a few are already here.
I have never been ashamed to state I was labour to the backbone or behave like a modern day Hyacinth Bucket to keep up with the Jones's.
Having said all of that Cameron has never stated that he wishes to break the union up either and if you take an in depth look at today's papers you will see that even with the spectacular win he enjoyed, some journalists are still having doubts if Cameron will pull it off.
Interested to hear your opinion. Mine is Cameron is a watered down version of Nu Labour and as I have said often in the past why have plastic when one can have leather?
What do you think of your leader, is he a red Conservative or blue Nu Labour?
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no neil, #101, a debate is where you discuss differing view points, carefully reasoning the virtues of eithers sides position, for example, you could have a debate about the virtues of a high tax and spend economy with emphasis on public services. a debate isnt hundreds of vitriole comments blaming gordon brown for everything thats gone wrong, for wrecking our economy etc, for the price of oil, without any actual evidence.
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What this result and the local elections of a couple of weeks show is that the old saying that 'oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them' is as true today as it's ever been.
In 1979 people did not vote for the tories, they voted against Old Labour. The reverse happened in 1997 where people didn't so much vote for New Labour as against the tories.
Same thing is happening now. This time though there's also the scottish question. If New Labour hold on till 2010 -m and in all probablity that's exactly what they will do - and their vote vapourises north of the border, then the SNP will bring on it's referendum and very probably win it with Scotland then leaving the UK and almost certainly joining the euro currency.
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Nick
A suggestion to you re your blog protocols.PLEASE adapt the practice of some other blogs and limit the length of entries by incorporating a maximum number of characters.
The tendency of some bloggers to post self-indulgent entries of War and Peace dimensions seems to have grown recently. Worse than that, the 'usual suspects' have taken to engaging in endless, tedious exchanges of these prodigously long efforts.
A plea to the the usual suspects - you know who you are - until/ unless Nick applies the suggested discipline, remember the 'more is less' reality.The more your entry rambles on, the less likely are people to read it - at least those not involved in your tennis matches of lengthy but boring rallies. Alternatively, why not conduct your circular exchanges by email and give the rest of us a break.
This entry is a bit longer than it nneded to be. Sorry about that.
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#103 kiwilegs, Cameron may not be hoping to break up the British union but the idiot is hell bent on tearing Britain out of the European union, but then is it him or the puppet masters pulling his strings, it will be pretty clear shortly after he wins a general election. Thats if the british public are forgetful enough to let that disastrous event take place.
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To Adliberal #67
Unfortunately proportional representation sounds great but in practice it creates more problems than it solves. If you look at nearby countries that use it, Belgium is a good example, you will see the government is almost incapable of introducing any change of any note since the numerous political factions are poles apart and meaningful compromise almost impossible. Indeed if the Belgian situation was used in the UK you would have English parties, Welsh parties, Scottish parties and Irish parties in Westminster, all jostling for a little power, being nationalistic, and all compromising their souls in order to stay on the gravy train, result - regrettably a stagnant government. Am I joking? no, as this is what is happening now in Belgium and it is probable that after July there will need to be a new very early election as the current government risks imminent collapse.
My conclusion is that whilst not perfect it is better to have a good working majority from the "winner takes all" system rather than a mismatch of views from a multi-party coalition government that can only continue the status quo with minor tweaks and never implement hard change.
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61 CHH:
So Charles, Cameron has driven his stock way above fundamentals? On the thorny issue of share values, why oh why (given the low level of New Labour's 'stock' value) aren't we, the electorate, buying into them right now? Think about it, the best time to buy is when the maket has bottomed-out, don't you think? I suspect that for new labour their stock value has a little way to sink yet.
Subprime Gordon will have to do a pretty big hard-sell to get that triple A rating.
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107#
Yes grandantidote, the right wing anti-EU faction of the Conservative party is laying dormant for the moment.
Cameron to gain the votes of these people promised he would leave the EPP.
He renegued on that, They are holding their thunder for the moment as he is doing well, these people will hold him to it and then we will see the hidden agends of these Tories. I predict all hell will break loose when that day arrives.
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102 dhwilkinson:
So you're not a conspiracy theorist? Well you're doing a pretty good job at convincing me that you are. I assume you think that the run on the Northern Rock was orchestrated by some weird secretive Cameron cult then? The BBC is moving unnoticeably to the right? How would we know if it's unnoticed? Anyway, it's easy to bash the BBC, or have a go a Nick because of his tory days in the sun, but, come on, give it a rest, we all know that the current political mess is perfectly understandable if you just look to the stars.
It's the aliens that are to blame. Speak to David Ike he'll help you get your mind straight on these issues. Nick is an alien, the BBC is run and staffed by aliens and they are out to rule the world, and for some reason, which is lost on most of us, they have it in for New Labour.
There, the truth is finally revealed.
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I said yesterday:
"I predict that GB will be ousted or will be forced to go to the country long before two years time.
John Major's 'Put up or shut up' challenge when he lost the support of his party and called an election, comes to mind."
I've just heard on the BBC News that Gordon Brown has said that anyone not happy with his leadership "should either put up or shut up!"
How's that for political prediction?!
PS Alan Johnson is my hot tip to replace Brown.
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112#
I would put good money on it that this will not happen.
There are a few in the Labour Party baying for Brown's blood.
I would not deny otherwise.
Just as the Tories have their fanatical anti EU right wing the Labour party has the luny left.
Now I do know that one Labour MP who is not one of the usual suspects has come forward with the idea of replacing Brown and the press and media have reported than in fine detail.
What they did not report was one of the MP's with the smallest labour majority in this Country has come out strongly in Brown's defence.
The news and newpapers have been deafening with their silence on that story.
Now heavens to Murgatroyd I wonder why?
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I rather like GB's logic in blaming OPEC for the price of Oil, and his request for them to let him dictate their production and marketing strategy. Perhaps he might like to ask Peter Mandelson to offer OPEC a reciprocal arrangement with the European aerospace industry as a gesture of unity and goodwill.
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Kiwilegs said:
"I would put good money on it that this will not happen."
I don't think betting is allowed but it seems incredible that Labour will allow itself to have a slow-motion crash all the way to the general election. They had no trouble getting rid of the unpopular Mr Blair to improve their election hopes, which worked for awhile. So they have form - and experience of how to do it.
That fact the Brown is now saying "Put up or shut up" is very provocative. He should be 'listening' to them, not saying "Come outside!" I'd be tempted to take him on if I was a Labour MP and those comments were directed at me. It's like saying 'like it or lump it' - and many don't like it.
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Been thinking about how little we know of Dave and current/future Tory policy. Everyone quotes his association with Lamont and Black Wednesday but people tend to forget his role in the last and recent 2005 General Election.
He wrote the Tory manifesto, ridiculed at the time fot it's brevity and Dog Whistle style on race issues, memorable for very little other than "the patients passpoert" to take money out of the NHS and give to the well off to spend on private care. The sound bite was "are you thinking what we're thinking?" Well no Dave but we understood what you were thinking and would like to know what you're thinking now, Why so shy?
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Has Brown really said "put up or shut up" such a quote would surely be a headline on BBC Website, cant find it?
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Maybe we should be saying to Mr Brown "Put up (call an election) or shut up."?
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Eatonrifle said Has Brown really said "put up or shut up" such a quote would surely be a headline on BBC Website, cant find it?
I heard it on BBC News 24 - repeated several times on headline summaries.
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"@102 dhwilkinson:
So you're not a conspiracy theorist? Well you're doing a pretty good job at convincing me that you are. I assume you think that the run on the Northern Rock was orchestrated by some weird secretive Cameron cult then? The BBC is moving unnoticeably to the right? How would we know if it's unnoticed? Anyway, it's easy to bash the BBC, or have a go a Nick because of his tory days in the sun, but, come on, give it a rest, we all know that the current political mess is perfectly understandable if you just look to the stars."
You have done your very best to make me look like one!
Why was it first reported on Friday night?
I am not a fanatical conspiracy theorist. but it is not a good thing to go through life not questioning anything. Beleiving every line from some charismatic leader.
You say Cameron has charisma. Well not questioning what a leader with good presentation skills and charisma does. Led to Nazi Germany and other dictatorships. I am in NOT suggesting anyone is Hitler or this is anything like Nazi Germany. It is an extreme example. A lesser example is George Bush and Tony Blair getting away with the 2nd gulf war on false grounds. Now we have voting for a conservative party that is hiding what it stands for and pretending to be something it isn't IE Liberal.
Maybe what I said is rubbish, maybe it isn't there is no harm in saying it. I don't know you and I don't care what you think. Its better than droning on about How Gordon Brown is so bad. How the moral fibre in this country has declined due to a lack of victorian family values. Prisoners get sky tv(I would have thought that was a good thing, It will dull their mind and stop them thinking of ways to escape!)
Now we are heading back to the Xenophobic little Englander party we have no chance in the Eurovision tonight.
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#106
Why would pulling out of the EU be a bad thing?
I am not saying pull out of the EA or the EEC - but why the EU?
As far as I can see the EU gives us:
Meaningless directives - that only the UK implements.
Extended Bureaucracy
Political correctness
Human Rights Acts
Loss of common sense
Total risk aversion
Rules and Regulations for the fun of it - I understand that in Brussels they have a prize for 'The most original regulatory proposal' offered on a weekly basis - with the prize being full implementation.
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116# yes, yes, yes Eatonrifle.
Cameron did write the last Tory election manifesto which was the most right wing ever written. He also stood on that platform to be elected as the Conservative MP for Whitney on that self same manifesto. I wonder what the residents of Whitney think now of their man as 2 years later he has performed a complete 90% turn, changed everything he ever stood for on last time at the rate of knots, just in the hope of being elected.
I wonder if the people of Whitney swallow it or are the residents of Whitney like him willing to say anything do anything get elected at any price until they get into office, then bring out the true agenda, you know the one that has made them unelectable for the last 10 years.
David Mellor the ex Secretary of State whom Cameron once worked for reminded Cameron of principles. I cannot remember chapter and verse exactly what Mellor did say, perhaps someone can remind me?
I do believe he said it was time Cameron got some principles, but I stand corrected if wrong. Not like my memory to let me down but it does happen now and again.
This man Cameron has abandoned every principle he has ever stood for on the hope of being elected.
It is high time somebody reminded David Cameron chapter and verse of what he said one day and how quickly he changed it another.
No genuine person changes so much they have believed in all of their lives in such a short space of time.
He ought to be known as "say anything do anything get elected at any price Shameron"
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The Labour party just doesn't get it. I do not believe any amount of tinkering will do. And even if it did in the short term the party would be faced with the John Major comment to Chris Patton after the 4th Tory win that they had "stretched the elastic of democracy too far". The Tories were then out for 11 years and counting. A relaunch of GB will not do, a few tax changes will not do, a change of leader won't do. And the economy is not going to come to the rescue before 2010 worthy of "foregiveness" being granted.
What "could do" ?
High risk but GB calls a general election :
- unexpected
- decisive
- shuts up his back benchers
- humble in front of voters - "seeking absolution" and shows "listening" to the bye election and local elections results
- gives an opportunity to engage with the voters with personal vision (and an explanation of why that vision had appeared to be lost)
- examine half made Tory policy
Mad ?
Maybe but anything else is putting off the evil day. At worst, the Tories get in now but Labour could be back in soon enough instead of pushing too far and being out of office for another 15 years.
Give it thought Gordon. If you get back in you get in with a mandate, a "new start" vision and a renewed opinion of your political courage. Or you can go on for another 18 months and disappear.
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Amateurs tend to over-react. Developing proper understanding or good form, and a proper awareness or sensitivity to the environment, is key to success. With sound fundamentals in place the strategist fights with the earth to their back. The line of force this creates is unbeatable but to do that you have to drop the ego.
I see a lot of squabbling in here. Debate is something else but I gave that up years ago. Mostly, I prefer discussion or thesis. I can and have been critical of Labour, and had some praise for the Tories and Liberals, but that gets lost in the noise. I'm taking advantage of Nick's break to reflect on what I say and how I say it. I could do better and feel the time is right in any case.
I would suggest people in here reflect on their own leadership, communication, and deal making skills. There's a lot of bad examples at the top of politics and in the media at the moment. You don't want to copy them but take the opportunity to do better if you can. And by better, I mean better in a qualitative sense not winning for the sake of winning.
"What is the sound of one hand clapping" is a Buddhist koan that illuminates the nature of past, present, and future. We have to deal with the legacy of history, develop visions for tomorrow, and live in this moment. The asset stripping and greedy society we have is a legacy, some good policies are in place, but it takes time to feed through.
All the major parties have been grasping too hard and that’s something they need to deal with. I warned my local MP but Menzies Campbell didn’t listen and it cost him his job. Cameron is going through a similar arrogance. Gordon has his issues. We can all be creatures of bad habit and getting over that is why I'm a Zen Buddhist. It's not much but it helps.
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Gordon Brown is quite right to talk about long term. But when operating at the highest level in UK Politics, that is but one essential part of the role he occupies.
The Government lead by John Major talked in similar tones and many are lead to believe that they left a good economy to New Labour's trust.
Despite this "Good Economy" , they were considered a weak Government in disarray and were voted out of office.
Listen and Learn Gordon
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Shut up or put up - Brown
Afraid I have to agree with Bustedrifle on this one. Mr Bean has been to busy down on the funny farm fixing the wheel that’s fell of his tractor.
Also I cannot see him repeating the fiasco "bring it on" BendyWendy has created north of the border!
But there again I could be wrong, Mr Bean is rapidly gaining a reputation of screwing things up.
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@106 Only jocking.
If you mean me, then I apologize, I am obviously trying to say too much at once.
But people keep challenging me with misquotations and I have to add references. I will give up the Northern Rock thing as although I believe it. I am digging a hole for myself. @83,@102,@120,
I have to say though. There are a lot of messages complaining about people with different points of view. 'If your not a Conservative or obsessive Gordon Brown Hater then you're not welcome'. At least I can say definitively that this blog is biased by its contributors.
Is it not also boring reading person after person saying the same thing. Like its some sort of referendum on Gordon Brown?
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There was a time when opinion in here led the newspapers but I notice that's dropped off as the arguing erupted and filled this blog with 1001 rants. If people have something reasonable to say and cut down the arguing that might return. Better comment and less volume would help give everyone an easier time.
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dhwilkinson 120:
Don't get me wrong here, it is important that every view gets an airing. I respect your right to say exactly what you want. But, I feel I have the right to point out what I see are the flaws in your views, and if that's a problem for you, then, hard luck. You feel you've been misrepresented, well, you've mentioned that I have stated that I think Cameron has charisma: nope, I haven't, look at my previous postings. But, I don't mind you stating this because you might well infer this from what I have posted earlier.
The point is, we can all feel we are misrepresented, but, really, let's not get too uptight about it. As for 'droning'on about how bad Gordon is': guilty as charged. I make no apologies for this. You might have missed it but it is the hot topic of the day.
As for you Charles (Charles-E-Hardwidge 124) I'm not sure I understand everything you bang on about, but, it sure is entertaining. So keep it up. Maybe one day you'll convert me.
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#126 DHW
My comments were not aimed at you or any other individual, or even specifically to contributors to this particular thread.
Polemic exchanges between people with set in stone and irreconcilable views can be interesting. They very soon cease to be when they become repetitve, pedantic, tit for tat, and circular.
Lengthy, rambling entries are less likely to be read - let alone heeded - than pithy, concise ones. Inflate the volume of words circulated, debase the coinage of the message.
Combine the lengthy/ rambling with the reptitive/ tit for tat and quite soon the blog will be the sole preserve of the combatants -though there seem to be plenty of them.
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Bottom line as someone else said Gordon Brown is a poor communicator. Many of the things he says are right and he says many of the right things but he just sounds dull as he parrots his pre-written quips and scripted soundbites either in the Commons or on the Today program. That's why he lost the leadership to Blair the first time around. It's a shame - he's not a bad man and philosophically many people agree with him. I don't even believe he has a temper - John punch-em-in-the-face Prescott calling someone bad tempered? That's a laugh. But he's just an awful performer. He doesn't come out with any more cliches or scripted drivel than Tony Blair but Blair was a brilliant performer who could make people think it was spontaneous or that he'd genuinely thought of it on the spot. Watching Gordon Brown is like watching a poor comedian with good material lose the room.
Yes, he has inherited a poison chalice but that wont stop people wanting it. John Major's chalice was poisoned (and topped up with poison by his own economic stupidity) but there were always fights to drink form it and I think the reason is that, well, being Prime Minister (even a poor or caretaker PM) is for most a once-in-a-lifetime chance they may never get again and they'll grab it as he did even though he's not got the skill. For a politician being PM is the pinacle.
Yes, other PM's have ridden out worse and most of the problems are not actually of Brown's making but that doesn't matter... If I were him I'd be watching my back very hard indeed.
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Good comment, Miller. Pretty much agree with most of that. The cliche and awkwardness is just making things worse. If the Prime Minister can find some confidence and spontaniety inside himself he could spring free. He has some time to start developing this and deliver a good keynote later in the year. If he can't get over himself, I think, we'll be looking at Jack Straw, Allen Johnson or, maybe, Geoff Hoon to save the day.
Al Gore had wooden plank syndrome and it cost him the Presidency. If the Prime Minister can drop the boilerplate and stiffness as Al Gore has learned to do and give the audience what it wants he has a chance otherwise it's curtains. Normally, I'd stick with someone to the end but I'm not going down with the ship on this one. The Prime Minister has my understanding and sympathy but life is short and there's a limit.
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#103 Kiwilegs,
Thanks for your post. Perhaps Gordon will soon be known as Dodolegs as he is surely heading for extinction!
I think you are right about Dave's approach to the Union. I don't think it's tenable - like the current arrangements. We urgently need to arrive at a mutually acceptable format - or settle on outright independence for all.
As was said in 1997, you can have the union or Independence but Devolution will not work - so it is proving.
It's curious that Independent-minded Scots resent Westminster so much but seem happy to accept the intrusion of Brussels. A trifle odd seeing as the Scottish influence at Westminster (PM and Chancellor for starters) is far greater than their inevitable small fry status in EU politics.
The jury must still be out on Team Dave. What we need, in my view, is lower taxes better spent. Not sure Dave stands for that -I hope he does.
One of Gordon's many mistakes was the failure to reform public services before spending so much of our money. The result has been a shocking waste - and that's why he's in so much trouble now.
Gordon's status as a superb Chancellor is pure mythology. He inherited an economy fit for purpose and able to take advantage of the best global conditions we have ever seen. The ship was already sailing in the right direction. He merely carried on with most of Ken Clarke's framework. Problems, to numerous to mention here, have only arisen from his own tinkering and he's rightly taking it on the chin!
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It's all going horribly, horribly wrong.
Who wants the Tories back?
Who wants another Blair!?
Who wants Nick "I'm a Tory too" Clegg??
(and that from a Lib Dem voter)
Brown is going down rapidly and he's taking Labour with him.
I only hope this is another 1969 rather than 1979.
Four years in opposition, time to think, regroup and retire the old guard.
Maybe defeat is what Labour need, but at the price of the country having four years of (mercifully) ideology-free Tories bumbling around, making a hash of trying to be liberal.
Oh dear, oh dear.
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Recently in the House of Commons David Cameron said to Gordon Brown -
"This morning, we read about a new plan from this great man of substance—to appear on a new version of "The Apprentice". I am glad to see the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government in her place, blushing slightly. I am not making it up, but she said that it would be "The Apprentice" meets "Maria", meets "Strictly Come Dancing". I expect that there is probably a role for the Liberal shadow Chancellor.
I have a better idea for the Prime Minister. Why not take part in a reality show that involves the whole country? It is called the general election. Would not that give everyone the chance to square up to him and say, "You're fired"? Is not that the only way to get a Government who genuinely give people control over their lives, strengthen our families and our society, and make our country safer and greener?"
With this sort of humour who wouldn't pay to see this?
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Odd Nick doesn't comment more on his first paragraph since the interest is located there.
Cameron claiming death of NuLab, while at the same time also claiming their crown.
This is only possibly if Cameron embraces the third way approach so successfully visioned (if not exactly communicated) by Blair.
Certainly Cameron's one nation sounding views on education and health (even a little on crime) could suggest an attempt in this direction.
However, while Brown may be a floundering dead man walking who will win a total of one election (if that), Cameron still feels like he is aping. Blair said about his approach "it isn't just the route to power, I believe in it" (or something like that).
Problem with Cameron is it is clear he sees the route to power but he doesn't seem to know what he believes or why.
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hi.
re mr prescotts earlier remarks about gordons brown being the best man to get us out of this latest mess that labour is in.only goes to show that even he admits that 10 years of labour failings and ten years of ripping off the public with high taxes and hitting the poor the very people who voted for them only to be betrayed by them and the new labour slogan was just a gimmick to con the voters and at long last the penny has dropped the voters will get they revenge at the next general election and send new labour or what ever they wanna call them selfs to political excile for the next 50 years.And they deserve it for they betrayal to the poor and vunerable people in our country who they say said they represted.and yet when instead of raising taxes for the rich he wants to hit the poorest and the sick in our society to pay for their mistakes and their are many.
our country for the last thirty years has been bled dry by policatical failings and by greed led by the banks.Hence the name rip off britain.We as britains contribute the most to europe yet we get nothing back in greece the old and the sick get special vouchers from the EU to help pay for their food up to thirty pounds.we as britons help to subsidise most of the eu countries is it anywonder we pay the highest fuel prices in the eu we pay the highest telephone charges we pay the highest water charges and food prices in the eu and guess what most of all these companies are foreign owned most of all mobile phone companies are foreign owned most of the water companies are foreign owned most of energy companies are foreign owned.
Is it any wonder why the british people have had enough of this misery and are leaveing in they millions not to eu countries but away from the system of rip off and ression because lets face it the eu has brought nothing but boom and ression about 3 years of boom followed by 27 years off ression and high unemployment while countries like italy,spain portugal, holland and france ireland, were behind england are now ahead of us in everyfield their roads their transport their health in england your lucky to come out of our hospitals without a life threatening decease.
OUR ROADS ARE UNSAFE OUR PUBLIC TRANSPORT IS UN SAFE law and order has broken down people are getting away with crime because they know they can. they is no future left for the young so they start killing each other everyday in the streets.
Life in rip off briton has become a misery for many people.many generations of familys
living on virtuly nothing but handouts from the goverment.
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133# Bill Middle England.
Bill I will cover your points.
As for Gordon Brown set to become extinct do not believe it and I will set out my reasons why. You would expect no other from me.
Just take a look at the news headlines being spouted about Brown then take a long hard look at the facts.
Graham Stringer a perfectly loyal Labour MP up until now has asked for Brown to face a leadership Challenge from within the Cabinet as a duly elected MP that is his right, I accept that.
Lord Desai has spoken out against Brown in a similar manner. He is sitting in the House of Lords duly elected by no one but as we have freedom of speech, I accept that. Then we have Bill Rammel Labour MP for Harlow who was duly elected and has one of the smallest majorities in the Country saying Brown is the correct person to be there and to lead the Country taking us through this economic slowdown, bear in mind Rammel’s seat is a marginal he has more to loose this is also his rights.
Do you would agree with me on those points?
Showing on screaming TV headlines are Graham Stringer on every bulletin and Lord Desai is mentioned now and again and NOT ONE mention of Bill Rammel to be found. Does only the opinion of Stringer and Desai count on TV News Headlines and the Press, whereas Rammel's has got to be ignored because he is not kicking Brown?
The Media and Press look for the slightest bit of discontent, and there is not a shadow of doubt in my mind that there are some who are having doubts quite apart from Graham Stringer and the usual suspects, but the Press and Media chose to go on and on to highlight that which is spouted from the usual suspects and one or two discontents completely ignoring those with their feet on the ground like the sensible Bill Rammel. Very one sided and grossly unfair in my book I hope you would agree with me on that point. I can see Labours faults but I am also long enough in the tooth to realise Cameron has not once really been under any close scrutiny, he has employed hit and run tactics up until now, you also know that without me reminding you. When he is, if ever put under scrutiny, I wonder how fast things will turn.
Next onto to Scotland and Salmond, my gut instincts tell me he is a one term winner and can I remind you that it was only by a one seat majority and there is a doubt about that.
Can I also remind you he is supporting Cameron and vice versa, I am sure that will go down in Scotland like a lead balloon?
Scotland will revert back to Labour and from what I read and what I am told Scotland will not vote to split the Union, nobody feels that there would be a majority for this, however having said that things can and do alter swiftly. This brings me onto the next part which is this.
I have always agreed with you that at the moment things are not quite balanced with the status quo regarding Scots MP's, but then Bill you have never ever given me a satisfactory answer regarding the next question.
Prior to the 1997 GE Scots were controlled by Tory Westminster MP's, they almost had the doomsday scenario in Scotland, where they were run by a government they hated and who had few MP’s in Scotland who were completely annihilated at the 1997 GE, they would have been had it not been for proportional representation as the Tories were wiped out in Scotland and practically all of Wales also.
What you always failed to take into account and I constantly pointed it out to you along with our friend from the Ancient Kingdom of Fife, Westminster MP’s are elected by the people from ALL of the UK to sit in the UK Parliament at the Palace of Westminster only, Scots MP’s are elected to sit in the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh, there is a World of difference between the two.
One Parliament takes decisions for the whole of UK, the other only decides matters on how the Barnett Formula is going to be spent and the direction the governing party would like to take the Country in.
Hardly life threatening decisions is it?
I very often wondered why the Scot complained so much until I studied in depth their reasons for complaint, I thought they were griping for the sake of it, but I swiftly altered my opinion after studying the reasons for their anger, it was not that which I had thought first as people just moaning for the sake, I came to realise they had a strong justifiable case for dissatisfaction, I agreed with them, they had been treated grossly unfair
As for Europe Bill, it is mainly the right wing headbangers of the Tory party and UKIP who are dead against the EU. Most people who are not politically active and a lot of the youngsters are perfectly content to be in the EU only those young nerds who slavishly follow the Tory party and hang onto Cameron’s every word think different. The young have other priorities like acting normal, enjoying themselves and trying to bankrupt their parents, they in the main accept the EU and for that reason we should be in there fighting hard for our corner, I can never see Cameron doing that he will sell out to his right wing. They are only holding their thunder because he for the moment is on a roll just wait until the tide turns then watch it.
This is the only thing I agree with the braggart Salmon about, I certainly do not agree we should split a Union which has served us well for centuries in the good times as well as bad. We should concentrate on that that unites us not that which divides us. We are stronger together than we would be apart.
As an aside if Cameron does get his way, Salmond would be proved right the EU is where we need to be, but fighting our corner more strongly than at present.
As for taxation and how the money is spent that is a subject for another day.
Cheers!
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dylunydd
Who wants Nick "I'm a Tory too" Clegg??
If this is that Daily Telegraph story(only 1 source), about collaborating with the conservatives to oust labour even if labour has most seats in a hung parliament . I dont think it is true. Anyone who has seen Austin powers, man of mystery knows what would happen if he sided with Cameron.
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It's all very well bleating about the "full employment" produced by Labour.
It's easy to create employment if you shift some benefit claimants onto sickness benefits, and hire thousands more to do public sector non-jobs. Personally I'm sick of paying taxes to fund the wages of people whose only function in employment is to look for minor indiscretions and issue fines.
When it seems seeing a teenager knifed on our streets is practically a weekly occurrence it's bizarre to see public sector jobsworths busy issuing fines for people who put a little bit too much rubbish out one week.
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The people of crew have voted this is democracy, what i would like to say to them is be careful you have been conned. not once have any of camerons shadow cabinet or him have told us any policy that is going to make a difference to your lives, also if you really listen they are saying they are waiting to see what brown/ darling are going to do is this the kind of people you want to govern your country who are they going to wait on when they are in power?
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C E H @132 surprises me with his admission that Brown is a goner: ("If he can't get over himself, I think, we'll be looking at Jack Straw, Allen Johnson or, maybe, Geoff Hoon to save the day".). Chuck, you know that Brown is incapable of change, so the conclusion is obvious.
The question is why it has taken you so long to recognise what everyone else has known for months?
As for 'saving the day', the cavalry ain't coming. It's Little Big Horn for General McCuster and Nu Labour are going to get truly scalped.
You are probably right in that Jack Straw might make a move. The little creep knows that it is his last and only change at the top job and so he'll put himself forward in a caretaker role as a 'safe pair of hands' for the 'good of the Party'. Straw knows that Nu Labour has a snowball's chance in hell of winning a General Election, but the prize is to desirable for this fox to let slip.
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There a so many people talking about 'Wasting our money!". The reason money had to be spent was because the former conservative and labour governments left us with decrepit public services. Crumbling schools and hospitals and other public buildings, rail network with either old or cheap flimsy 'Bus on Rails" trains that always broke down, and also privatised the rail network that milked the public for profits while not doing its job properly. You aren't going on at the conservatives about that waste of money decision.
Also motoring stealth taxes the green tories are always complaining about. I agree that petrol and diesel tax should come down, as this might also improve inflation. But these conservative motorist seem to say traffic wardens, parking cameras and speed cameras are a way of raising revenue for the treasury. Speed cameras are important as they know speeding is dangerous. Even for an undiscovered racing driver like they think they are.
But here is a suggestion. We have a phone vote(25p and 5p goes to the treasury) to decide whether we should stop traffic wardens acting on anything other than reasons of safety for a week. If they say yes. We will discover what chaos it brings and then see what these motoring whingers say. A daft suggestion. but I would sort of like to see it happen.
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To Kiwilegs #138,
re "As for Europe Bill, it is mainly the right wing headbangers of the Tory party and UKIP who are dead against the EU. Most people who are not politically active and a lot of the youngsters are perfectly content to be in the EU only those young nerds who slavishly follow the Tory party and hang onto Cameron?s every word think different."
It isn't just them who are against the EU, or rather, the direction the EU is taking, if you look in most of the EU countries you will find the ordinary people are not happy with the increasingly over regulated, corruption riddled, protectionist entity that the EU has become. Social mobility has been hit by current EU regulations, whereby if you work in another country and are made redundant, you will not be accepted back on your home countries unemployment system but have to remain in the country you moved to. Likewise for the so called democracy, if you are a non-national you cannot vote in National or Regional elections and are disenfranchised. I could provide many many examples of the failings of the current EU, and I was somebody who voted for it in the early 70's, and for the last 18 years I have lived and worked outside the UK, mostly in Belgium where I've seen the craziness of the EU corruption in Brussels at first hand.
Please therefore don't think only right wing Tory fanatics are against the EU as the truth is that of the many people I know in and around my village, I can't think of anyone who likes the current EU's direction. They like being in the EU and the EURO but have the intelligence to realise both are creating major problems which are being made much worse by the global economic recession.
On a slightly different point, you also mentioned Scotland, if it does vote for independence, just as Flanders in Belgium is threatening to do, amongst other things it opens Pandora's box for voting. Unless Scots in England are allowed to take English Nationality, and want to, they will only be able to vote in local and EU elections, just as I was until recently. Since traditionally the Scots tend to be left wing in preference the Labour party could potentially lose many many thousands of votes in General elections if ethnic Scottish Nationals can't vote. Interesting concept I think and maybe one reason why Labour politicians are scared of the repercussions of separation.
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140# Allow me to assure you there were over 3 million people claiming the dole when new Labour came to power. There was probably about another 1.5 million unemployed but not able to claim due to the fact that although they were unemployed they could not claim as married Ladies mainly paid half Insurance as their husbands Insurance contribution covered them for their pensions, but not medical or unemploymnt matters.
That was the norm in those days not the exception.
The dole cost more money then, than that spent on the whole of the defence budget then.
We could not spend money on the defence of the realm because it was being wasted keeping people on the dole who were desperate to find work. A good number who were in work were paid at the rate of 80p per hour, The Tory government decided that to pay anymore would create unemployment.
Gordon Brown showed them different.The Tory were so wrong then and now they grudgingly admit it and agree the minimum wage was correct as paying that had a culmative effect on the economy and people started to return to work because one job managed to create another down the line.
Last but not least, a Doctor decides who goes on invalidity at the moment, not politicians, some of these people can be helped to find a job which will suit their disability or their incapacity which Labour is conducting now.
Who are or you or David Cameron for that matter to decide who is fit for work owing to incapacity or a Doctor that is qualified, who sees each individual that signs the person on or off?
You try arguing with these medics and watch where it gets you.
This is an easy cheap shot.
I take it that you are neither disabled, suffer long term illness or have any other debilitating illness. The people who suffer these things ulike you know, you only think you know.
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#117 ikesports, well I have to congratulate you Ikesports you have just won the award for writing the longest and most incorrect load of Tory induced diatrbe that I have, I think read on any of the postings, I have read some pretty bad ones on here by regular Tory bloggers but I'm pretty sure that your entitled to the award. I am afraid that after reading your post I dont imagine any serious minded Tory would support you.
Just one little reality check, just one check out of what could be many. Who sold BT,Gas, Electricity, and Water, among the many other things they sold. I suggest that you have a long hard look at your post before committing yourself to another,and thats friendly advice.
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144# Buzet 23.
I am well aware that things are not perfect in Europe.
I voted to join as you did, my husband voted the opposite so we cancelled one another's vote out.
We also have one hell of a lot tied up in Europe where trade and jobs are concerned.
The answer is not to leave the EU but to get in there heart and soul and try and change the things that are wrong, we cannot do that from the sidelines.
As for the remainder of your post I will tackle each part one by one after lunch and that way my posts are not too long to the extent where they become boring to others.
My post to Bill was the exception to that remark as we are long time sparring opposites who have always managed to keep different views friendly, by respecting one another's opinion. And their right to express it.
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#142: ScepticMax
C E H @132 surprises me with his admission that Brown is a goner.
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In that comment he also mentioned - Not going down with the ship!
Yep…That has surprise me to. But if you look on the other blog “Normal service will be resumed……”, #14. He is talking about hobbies.
Perhaps he should have a word with McBean, he is looking a bit wishy-washy lately and in need of a diversion, preferably a very long one!
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# 138Kiwilegs, that was a long one Kiwi but as always I could'nt agree more. I wish I had your energy in opposing these Tory clowns, not all of them of course, some of them have a reasonable and considered argument, if misguided but they are entitled to their opinion, but some of the Tory posts are based not on politics but on hate and spite and a who can we insult today policy.
They have nothing to say on any one subject other than to drag it down but never one word on how to replace it, so they resort to insulting tactics hoping that they will stick,and we wont notice that they have nothing to put forward, quite a bit like their Temporary leader [well they dont keep them long do they] he's got all the conspiritors around him, Hague, Maude,Davis,Lansley, Willetts and Pickles, the rest are sitting close behind him letting him think he's in charge while they tweak on the strings, the hierarchy are close behind soames, hogg, redwood, Lilly, and the arch villain Michael Howard.to name but a few to agree that Cameron is right will mean that they were wrong for the last thirty years
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148 NuLabour Nohope, your postings are becoming daily more manic. keep taking the tablets. I think its you that needs a rest about forty years should start to get you right, in the head that is.
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@140 thoughtcrime2008
The process of people going on sickness benefit instead of unemployment benefit. was started under the Conservatives so there was still even more than 3 million unemployed voting Conservative won't mean that Cameron will be honest and count them as unemployed. So what is your point? I don't think voting for a government on the basis of pointless sneering anger is good for the country.
I personally, going back to the media thing for a while. I think that panorama about sickness benefits should have been postponed until Later after the election. as it was inflammatory in favour of the conservatives.
By the way would do you or Dave 'Vote for me I'm good on the telly' Cameron suggest?. Probably something like tax cuts for the rich in hope that a trickle down effect creates jobs or something. It didn't work last time and it won't now. Pulling out of the EU wont help the cause either. No wonder conservatives keep telling us to forget history. It is so informative.
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131 AE Miller Re John- punch -em -in -the -face Prescott, I'm a little tired of these stupid glib remarks.If some idiot three feet away from you deliberately threw an egg in your face, I suppose you would turn the other cheek, and say thats OK he's taken advantage of the fact that I'm vulnerable but thats alright well John did'nt he's a man he did exactly what I and the majority of real men in this country would have done, ask the men in the forces what they would have done, I know, and thank God they've got that spirit, but perhaps youre not one of them.
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#151: dhwilkinson
@140 thoughtcrime2008
I personally, going back to the media thing for a while. I think that panorama about sickness benefits should have been postponed until Later after the election. as it was inflammatory in favour of the conservatives.
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Boy you have a selective memory. What about Mr Bean and his bribery in response to the screw-up HE had made on the doubling of tax on the lowest paid workers in this country. This was shortly followed by his draft Queens speech well in advance. Both of these initiates require borrowed money, in huge amounts.
I for one believe that due to recently released figures panorama, once again, were at the forefront of investigative journalism. They actually brought to the forefront what many people have known for years.
I for one believe that is about time we got some of these indolent scroungers of their backsides and into employment. I believe in the welfare state but the current culture encourages scroungers, hits at the genuine claimants and also hides the true unemployment figures in Britain.
Perhaps then with money saved we could reward our low paid hard working people of Britain, instead of making it harder for them to make both ends meet by doubling the tax they pay!
Yes you are right it was started under the Tories but that doesn’t absolve NuLabour from sticking with a shabby initiative that was designed to help people, but has been used to massage the unemployment figures.
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Buzet23: As promised:
When I passed the remark regarding Europe I was only referring to people in the UK only, however you have got a point I was completely unaware that people on the Continent feel as you suggest.
We only ever go to France on a very regular basis, but just for long weekends or a Monday-Friday basis, just depends how the mood takes us and if our son is going to be doing the driving as my husband has no patience with long journeys now, our son resides part there and part here, plus the fact driving in Paris is a young man's job as past 70 and not quite being able to understand how mad the French divers are it makes my husband's blood pressure rise. He likes to follow the rules, the French have other ideas and it is after all their Country, we just merely being their guests. It is safer to allow our son to do it.
We do mix with quite a lot of French people but to be perfectly honest this matter has never ever arisen with them and we do have some lively political debates at times with our sons French pals and colleagues and as you can see I am very much a political animal so to speak that comes natural to me.
I was extremely surprised that you said "It isn't just them who are against the EU, or rather, the direction the EU is taking, if you look in most of the EU countries you will find the ordinary people are not happy with the increasingly over regulated, corruption riddled, protectionist entity that the EU has become"
I will of course accept your word for that, with the exception of France I cannot say and it would be unfair to hazard a guess I simply do not know. Even France I am not 100% sure of as the matter has never ever arisen. However I will sound it out just out of curiosity if for no other reason.
The next question regarding the Scots, somehow or other I can never ever see any Scot take English Nationality they are far too proud of their own Nation and fiercely proud of their Nationality and quite rightly so in my opinion. And I can never see in my lifetime any government no matter what shade they are either Red Blue or Yellow expecting any Scots living in England to be denied a vote; it would be tant amount to ask them to have a Scots passport. However I have no doubt some Scots person on this site will answer that question better than I can.
I cannot accept that one at all.
I visit Scotland a lot, I had a Scot’s neighbour until 3 months ago and the very thought of that would send the two of them demented, which brings me to a very peculiar point, one votes for Conservative the other votes Labour. So one cancels the others vote out just as it did with me and my husband at the EU referendum.
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So looks like the "put up or shut up" "quote" was yet another invention of this blog. Turns out it was Lord Desai, not quite the same but why should accuracy get in the way of rhetoric
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Grandantidote149#
Stay with it ,there are more than me now on this site and counting who will more than hold there own with any Tory. Plus the fact they have got off their Jacksies and are now fighting back.
I would like to correct you on one point however, it was said that Michael Howard did not wish Cameron to become leader, he wanted Osborne to do it.
The reason being when Howard had his coronation within the Tory Party after they had unceremoniously dumped IDS who was voted for not only by Tory Mp's but there rank and file members also and Howard was elected by the members only by the MP’s who never put it to the rank and file he wanted Cameron to be shadow Chancellor. Cameron was so afraid of Brown he turned it down as Tony Blair was still our leader then.
So much for gutless Cameron he did not have the bottle to take Brown on at the treasury, he left it to poor little Gideon Osborne to take the flak hence the spite and personal attacks on Brown now, that is very much driven by Gideon, the poor little rich boy who change his name as Gideon was much too posh so he swapped it for one of his predecessors name in the hope that it would sound more working class.
Now I have never ever subscribed to this class warfare thing so why should he?
People learn to live with these things, his skin must be thin. This is a bit of Gideon Osborne trying to discredit Brown for all of the humiliating times he spent trying to outsmart Brwon at the Treasury to no avail, it was something akin to a lamb to the slaughter, it was pathetic at times to watch, like a naughty schoolboy tearing the wings of the butterfly. Poor little butterfly Osborne he is still smarting from the experience. What is even worse is that it is
such a shame people have longer memories and can keep reminding others.
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I for one am not surprised that NuLabour are sticking with Mr Bean, to do otherwise would mean scuttling the SS NuLabour, a ship that has been hit by a number of substantial broadsides in recent times.
If they get to the autumn conference I can see no problems there, squabbles will be settled offstage. But there again I could be proved wrong.
Mr Beans headaches will start next winter with the mini budget in Nov/Dec when they announce how they intend to deal with their interim measure resulting from the 10p fiasco.
At that time they will also be trying to turn around the good ship lollipop in response to the kicking by the electorate.
He has two options either borrow or cost the measures into the budget, I suspect both. As for the budget he would be foolish to increase taxes, indeed his only option is to decrease taxes, certainly for the less well off. To obtain what he requires he will have to make cuts in other areas. He has a problem there because not only will he be perceived as incompetent on the economy but will be seen as the party making cuts, a charge they have accused the Tories of time and time again. But there again there is a third alternative - business as usual!
Another self made disaster, accident waiting to happen is the hefty increases he has introduced to the road fund licence, whilst intended as green taxes many will perceive them as pure tax hikes, money to be dropped into another NuLabour spending black hole!
These hefty rises will be dropping through peoples letter boxes throughout the year proceeding the GE.
And surprise, surprise in the above proposals, buried in the small print is the scrapping of the exemption for older cars from the highest rates of vehicle excise duty. I don’t know about you but I have not seen many middle income earners, high income earners or rich drivers with cars over 10 years old. Yep once again Mr Bean is hitting the lowest paid workers in Britain.
Another event that takes place, next spring, are the EU elections. NuLabour due to the public back lash included a referendum in there manifesto, a promise that Mr Bean has reneged on. I for one will be thanking them for the decision they took, and I suspect others will do likewise.
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Class Warfare. Was it really that in Crewe. Whatever it was it was certainly a bit ham-fisted and from a tactical point of view for Labour it didn't work.
No one from whatever background should be excluded from representing a constuency when voted for. But I do feel uneasy about a new predominance of a privelaged elite emerging from such a narrow seam of society. People say point out a persons backgroud such as happened in Crewe is in some way "anti aspirational", well no one should be against aspiration, but what Cameron, Osborne, Johnson Timpson etc have is nothing to do with aspiration and everything to do with inheritance and the advantages brought (or should I say bought) through unimaginable and in their individual cases mostly unearned but inherited wealth. And yet still That in itself doesn't bother me that much, there is always likely to be that enduring demi aristocracy in the UK. My fear is that even in a democracy that sort of wealth and privelage can overshadow ability. Futhermore Goodness knows what influence Lord Ashcrofts millions will have on the next election, and the Government was just accused of trying to buy votes!
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153 labournohoper:
I was staggered to read your post, for a fairy tale it takes the prize for reality you need a re-think.
Mr Bean as you call him was called on by Labour MP’s as well as Teflon Dave and the rest of the baying Tory party to do something about the 10p tax mistake. Gordon Brown duly admitted after some kicking and squealing that this thing had been an error he passed it to the treasury and the Chancellor dealt with it effectively, what more do you want and what would call me Dave have done different after all he done the squealing also and he got what he asked for.
Bear in mind or allow me to remind you, Gideon Osborne was shadowing Brown when this rate was brought in, why did he not grouse then?
Why wait until the mistake came to light then scream holy murder, if he had have been doing his job correctly he would have pre-empted this in the beginning not 2 years later the same can be said of Panarama, and as per usual Osborne and Cameron these flip-flopping Tories were very wise after the event.
Well done give those men10/10 for being wise after the event and in hindsight.
"Perhaps then with money saved we could reward our low paid hard working people of Britain, instead of making it harder for them to make both ends meet by doubling the tax they pay"! You comment.
Can you stand with hand on heart and tell us which Chancellor has in the last 50 years done more for the poor and disadvantaged in this Country than one Gordon Brown or Mr bean as you like to call him?
If you can lets hear about it, you know the old adage about money and mouth do you not?
Well there is another about put up or..you know the rest I presume?
You said, "I for one believe that due to recently released figures panorama, once again, were at the forefront of investigative journalism. They actually brought to the forefront what many people have known for years"
Yes perhaps you and they both know it, but are those on Panorama and yourself Doctors who are qualified to say who is fit to work and who is not?
Plus the fact Brown et-al are trying to get those that could be able back to work, what more do you want, the ability to drag those unfit to toil back to work and make things worse for them?
Would you enjoy that?
You obviously have never seen disability and really sick people at first hand.
Just because some people do not look ill or disabled, this does not neccesasary mean they are not, appearances can be very deceptive.
Thank your God that you are fit, capable and able to work as in anybody’s lifetime that can change rapidly.
I sincerely hope this never happens to you, however if you are unfortunate enough for it to do so.
I hope you reflect on those hasty misguided words of yours.
That which God gives he can take away just as easy, I hope you do not forget those words.
Still with the money saved perhaps they will not need to pay you.
Typical Tory thinking know the cost of everything and the value of nowt!
Health is precious never forget that and it is a gift not a right.
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157#
So out of interest NLNH where would the "X" go on your next ballot paper. Clearly not Labour so who is you current prefernce to lead the Country?
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Brown simply cannot grasp that his unpopularity is directly linked to his unpopular policies.
He cannot see that he needs to change course - eg reduce exorbitant fuel tax, reinstate the lower 10p tax, cap council taxes, scrap bin tax, scrap HIPs, scrap ID cards etc.
There is also growing resentment about the way England now has considerably less autonomy than Scotland. Labour's pet 'regional assemblies' were never going to be the answer - they are a waste of time and money.
Although the Scots have done very well under New Labour, let us not forget that the population of London alone is about the same as Scotland and Wales put together!
Labour's constitutional tinkering has caused a situation which is now democratically untenable, nationally and internationally.
By refusing to hold the referendum on the Euro Constitutional Treaty (as clearly promised on page 84 of Labour's 2005 manifesto) Brown has shown that Labour simply cannot be trusted.
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161# So out of that string of unpopular taxes and Policies, which do you think the Tories would change. To be honest if in next week I even have my doubts about the Lisbon Treaty vote, hold that referendum, no doubt there'd be a vote against and franklywhat would they do when the rest of the EU look likely to approve through parliament, they would be left with their old dilema, in Europe or out. Believe when in Government rather than opposition things suddenly take on a different light.
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155# Etonrifles.
Two things I would like to point out to you. First you and I both know that Lord Desai is an unelected peer of the realm, never the less he has freedom of speech like the rest of us do. His remarks have been widely reported. He has said his piece, but then so did Milliband today a duly elected MP on another independant TV Political programme.
I do not see Millibands version making the News headlines, only that the PM is in trouble due to the fact that he is going to be faced with a challenge from inside his own cabinet. this channel gives more credence to an unhappy and misguided backbencher than it does to Cabinet ministers who knows first hand things inside of the cabinet, not coffee shop gossip
They use the trouble the PM is in first then tell what Milliband has had to say later.One could not make it up.
Next, this has been reported in the press and on a Tory blog-site. Boris Johnston has accepted another paid job to do alongside the Mayorship of London. Now he is not being paid peanutes for doing the Mayor's job and I do not suggest he cannot do both.
But how greedy can one become?
If in the unlikely event that Shameron does gain power, is Hague going to keep his lucrative part time job as just being Foreign Secretary which would serious damage his bank balance ot will he try to do this whilst not forgetting where the real money lies, in his after dinner speaking engagements?
I hope we never run into a crisis after 8pm at night.
Will the rest of Cameron's would be cabinet be doing the same after all the outside interest pay the real brass, being just a Secretary of State does not with this type?
Some interesting questions I hope the Tories can answer now instead of telling us in two years time.
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161#
You presume that Brown's unpopularity is beacuse of his policies.
I presume it is because of this global economy crisis. And when that clears so will the unpopularity he is experiencing now.
People are hurting, and the hurt is real, we have had ten years of growth and a rise in our standard of living. We forget all too easily how hard it is to tighten the belt, Yes we have all had to pay more in taxes. Now the good times have come to a temporary halt, people with short memores are panicking and running scared.
What would the Tory do any different and why presume your definition is correct and others wrong?
Where is you evidence to back up such a wild statement?
Or is it merely an opinion?
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#161: DistantTraveller
Yep you are right but I would like to add it is not just about bad policies, which I agree are many, its also about the flair of Mr Beans presentational skills or lack of them. To give an example remember the first PM question time directly after Bendy Wendys - Bring it on.
Mr Beans only retort was she, Bendy Wendy, did not mean what she said.
Then he rambled on about the SNP were wrong it was not in their manifesto. The day after Alex Salmond telling him it was in pages 15 and 18. Then he stumbled on a lost all credibility stating that the price of oil was 110 dollars a barrel when in fact it was 120.
I cannot understand that, on one hand SNP actually carrying out their manifesto promises whilst NuLabour forget theirs!
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157#
Labournohoper.
Once again you and I are on a collision course.
Of course Brown is facing substancial broad sides.
have you not heard there is a downturn in the global economy affecting all Nations plus ther fact Labour have been in power for ten years.
Name any government of any colour in the Western World which can get through ten years unscathed. Go on why don't you?
Name any government which when it came to power oil was 10 dollars a barrel it is now well past a 100. What economy does not run on oil I ask you? Machinery, transport and cars run on either diesel or petrol not fresh air, or do you think we think that we are not going to feel the effects of this, if you do then that that is the logic of the asylum.
Would Dave the PR man be able to reduce the price of oil?
We will have him in Downing Street tomorrow is he can!
Why would Gordon Brown need to borrow any more?
He has already said that it will be borrowed and can be made up later on in the cycle.
Now Brown has been challenged for years by political financial pundits, who have always said they were right and he was wrong.
Tell me when just ONCE! Brown has been proved wrong and please do not mention Gold as I will tie you up in knots over that one. It has already been tried on me on this site and found to be wanting.
That was by a proffesional BTW.
However if you feel you can take your best shot. Do not allow me to dissuade you.
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The narrative seems a bit London focussed. It's as if the end of 50 years of history for Labour didn't happen last May.
http://cybernat.blogspot.com/2008/05/metropolitan-myopia.html
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165# and so many others,
Mr Bean, McBean, McBroon, Bendy Wendy,Teflon Tony....... and on and on.
Every school playground has the angry spiteful loner.
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165# heavens you are at it again.
When has anybody ever said Gordon Brown has presentation skills?
Most labour people will tell you he certainly has not.
Presentation does not run this country hard work does.
What Brown has got is a first class good grasp of the economy, he knows what makes this Country tick. He is the better of the two of them to handle a crisis.
It was admitted today on TV by John Prescoot a man who should know what he is talking about that not only was Brown more clever than Tony Blair he was better at figures.
What do people want a PR man who is all presentation but does not have one iota of substance. or a workaholic PM who is solid has a strong grasp of reality but does not look like a pin up on TV?
That pin up thing is for little girls, the tory press and the journalists who for the moment hang onto Dave's every word.
When the electorate of this Country is faced with pretty boy shallow Cameron or dull dour safe pair of hands Gordon they will go for the substance not the image . Image is what TV and the cinema and magazines look for. What the electorate looks for is who they trust most.
I have more faith in this greeat British public than you appear to do.
However keep it going and we will see who wears who out first.
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#164 (Kiwilegs)
I realise that Brown's supporters are saying it's all about the global economy, not the man himself. (What else can they say?)
The problem with this view is that Brown was quick to take all the credit when things seemed to be going well, but when there's a downturn, it's nothing to do with him!
The global situation is clearly not Brown's fault, but his tax-borrow-and-spend policies have left the cupboard bare.
We are being told Brown is now the only person who can navigate us through these turbulent waters. The reality is, Brown has steered us onto the rocks.
You ask if there is evidence to back up my 'wild statement' or is it merely an opinion?
The only way to answer this is to let the people decide.
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#165 NuLabour Nohope . I dont know about you Kiwilegs but isnt it nearing the time when we send the absurd NuLabour Nohope idiot to coventry. we are at least most of us trying in these blogs to present reasonable views even if different but the constant ridiculous name calling by this clown is far from advancing the Tory cause and mildly irritating to the rest of us, he is thriving on us being annoyed with him, so I suggest that no one bothers to answer his posts until he puts foward his views with a little less levity. Good humour ,yes, ignorance and bad manners ,no.
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# 165. Spot on
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160: Eatonrifle
157#
So out of interest NLNH where would the "X" go on your next ballot paper. Clearly not Labour so who is you current prefernce to lead the Country?
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I have stated in a previous thread that over the last three local elections I have voted Lib/Dem. Once a strong NuLabour stronghold, the Lib/Dems are now in control. As for the "X", NuLabour have 2 years to turn things round. I will make my decision then!!
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Yes Bill he has got a point. How many people never make a mistake though about prices?
Or do you expect Gordon Brown to be superhuman and never make mistakes?
As for the Bendy Wendy bit, are you absolutely sure that Gordon Brown did know she had said these things at the time of Cameron's asking the PM? Because I watched this and I know that he knows that if he deliberately lied to Parliament he would be penalised for it big time, you know that too. It had been said earlier on in the day when Cameron had all the time in the world to prepare for PMQ's unfortunately the PM was distracted by silly things like running a Country, but what the dickens,the question is more important in some people's view than running the country is.
Plus the fact a week later when this subject was brought up again at PMQ's not by the leader of the opposition I may add, but by a Tory back bencher Brown did say he had answered the leader of the oppositions letter which Cameron wrote to him about.
The only problem is nobody only Brown and Cameron knew what was in the letter and neither Cameron nor Brown pursued the matter.
Now if on the off chance he had said anything other than what was the truth of the matter at the time to Cameron. Do you not think that Cameron would have brought it up for a cheap political stunt?
I certainly do. he would never miss the chance and you know it.
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# 165 (NuLabourNoHope)
I don’t disagree with your comments about Brown’s lack of presentational skills – but he could be forgiven this if his policies were sound.
I think you are being charitable to suggest that NuLabour "forgot" their manifesto promises. Brown simply broke the promise of the referendum when he realised he would lose. This is no doubt why he missed the public signing ceremony and skulked in later to sign in private after the other leaders had departed.
He is all spin and no trousers!
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#165 eaton rifle, I see that your as bored by all this name calling as I am see 171. if we all started this ridiculous behaviour where would it lead us, I can think of a few names that I could call Dave and Gideon but what is the point once or twice maybe funny but this incessant name calling by people that did'nt even have the wit to think them up for themselves I feel they dont deserve the courtesy of an answer, that way we wont be feeding this childish behaviour.
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Kiwilegs - FE
Apologies but I can't get my message posted for some reason.
All the best
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Kiwilegs
Will try in brief broken bits.
Devolution and the EU. Similar issues. We need a collection of independent nations agreeing where possible on matters of common good. Not a centralised single entity dishing out endless dotty directives from on high.
That format doesn't work as dear Gordon is finding out!!
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170# I agree we will allow the people to decide but that will be in two years time.
As for credit and debit are you saying the trouble that began in the USA housing market is the fault of Brown's?
Why should he take the blame for something
outside of his control?
This economic slowdown is worldwide, cannot you grasp that?
Every Country in the EU is suffering worse than us, they are suffering harder in the USA where there is a full blown reccesion.
Tell me if you can, what can Brown do to alter all that?
He is keeping things steady here, we are not in recession yet, we will probably avoid it nobody can say for sure with the exception that is of call me Dave. the guy who when asked what he would do about the Northern Rock debacle changed his tune 6 times and that was in one week only. We do not have mounting unemployment figures nor invisage that, we have some, but there are other jobs there that people could take on any port in a storm basis to see them through.
So what's your gripe now?
My gripe is the likes of you and Cameron who talk this economy down in the hopes of it becoming a self fullfilling prophesy is doing this Country untold damage.
It is time you thought first then put to print later. Selling your Country down the Swanee is a dreadful thing.
But hey what else can the Tory do I ask you?
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173 NL NH with all the guff we've had from you recently, your trying to tell us you dont know which way you'll vote in 2010, well you dont have to tell us were all quite aware where your loyalties lie. last one I promise unless directly aimed at me.
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#175: DistantTraveller
Sorry if I gave the wrong impression but that is what I meant SNP are standing by their promise in their manifest with regards the referendum, whilst NuLabour have reneged on their promise in the 2005 manifesto with regards the EU referendum.
Clearly Mr Bean does not trust us, then why should we trust him!
You are right - He is all spin and no trousers!
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Bill 178# I have no problem in agreeing with you on that first point.
However I have not found where GB is saying one thing in Scotland and another thing here in England.
As you are in Scotland on a regular basis and I am not, only once maybe twice a year visits and now I do not have the benefit of P of Fife' s wisdom, I could be missing out big time as I have not picked that up in the Scottish papers which I read on line, having said that, this does not mean to say they are not there, it could be I have missed it.
Advice on this point is required from you to cerrect any misapprehension I may have on the subject.
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# 162 (Etonrifle)
You ask which of the string of unpopular taxes and policies the Tories would change. As far as I know, they have already said they would ditch ID cards and HIPs.
With regard to Labour’s other disastrous policies, we’ll have to wait and see.
I think it will be quite difficult to come up with a new constitutional package that will undo the inequalities of Labour’s devolutionary mess, without risking the break-up of the Union.
England is clearly at a disadvantage under the status quo. Unfortunately, it’s very hard to unscramble eggs!
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181# Once again where are you getting thi guff from?
GB and TB both said that they would give us a vote on the EU's constitution.
The original Constitution is dead and buried TB negotiated a different deal GB signed for it.
Every Country accepts that there have been some changes to the original constitution each has had to alter their stance.
We altered ours and achieved what we wanted. Now why do we need a vote?
Ireland is the only Country where the Government is madated to call for a vote. This Country is not, now when things change which we ask for why call for another vote especially since it was a PM who asked for it and got what he wanted?
He after all was in a better position to know what the Governing party of this country wished.
When the Conservatives are running the country it will be there right to follow suit but not before.
BTW the same happened when the Conservatives were in power, they would never allow a referendum either.
next have you ever read one of these treaty's, even Ken Clarke said he has never read one and all politicians will tell you that most of the general public would never understand them either as they are all in legal jargon. So you are left to believe what the Government is telling you or listen to some on the opposition benches and a few on Labour benches who do not know 100% what they are talking about.
But hey be our guest put up which bits you find offensive and lets see what we can do.
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Bill every now and again I have trouble getting onto this site and getting a post away, it is either landing on a gardening site or tells me I have clicked back or some such other thing
Try via BBC Home page, click into politics then into Nick Robinson you ought to get the blog-site that way.
Annoying but it does work eventually.
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183# Ah the old "you'll have to wait and see" if in Government you can't "wait and see" you have to make decisions.
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Bill I will check for the next 30 minutes to see if you have been successful. If not I will be GOL but hopefully be back tomorrow God willing.
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186# Well said, I liked that one.
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179 # (Kiwilegs)
Hmmm. You say "the likes of you and Cameron who talk this economy down...... is doing this Country untold damage".
So, it’s all my fault then?!!
If I may say so, I think you are being a little disingenuous. I have genuine concerns about the direction Brown is taking us and have stated the issues as I see them. If you don't agree with me, well, that's fine.
The problem is that Brown and his supporters do not like criticism.
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189# No one likes criticism, true. But can't you see that criticising is relatively easy, everyone in the stands is a better player than those on the pitch, unless of course they're called on to play themselves.
Cameron is undoubtedly good at the "criticising" bit of opposition, but HM Opposition is also defined officially (and you can check this) as the "Government in waiting". So therefore knowing their alternatives for government is not unreasonable befoe anyone votes for them rather than "wait and see"
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Good of all those MPs - John Prescott, Alan Johnson, and the gap year prat who has just started to shave - to come on TV and tell us all that Gordon Brown is the right man fo the job.
That's their opinion - when do we get to have our say ?
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#186 Eatonrifle
To return to your earlier question (#162 and my reply #183) obviously I can't know what policies the Tories would change. Hence my answer we will wait and see. I'm sure we will all read their next manifesto with interest.
The point is, Labour's 2005 manifesto made a very clear unequivocal promise which they broke. (See Labour Party Manifesto page 84, regarding the referendum on the Constitutional Treaty). If supporters believe Gordon's view that the 'new' version was so different to the old one that a referendum was no longer needed – well, that's up to them!
You are quite right that while in opposition parties can wait and see, but while in government they have to make decisions. Unfortunately, in Gordon's case, he seems to be making rather poor decisions.
Doubtless, Brown supporters (who will brook no criticism) are saying the good people of Crewe and Nantwich got it wrong!
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191# You had it in 2005, Five year mandate given by the "good people" of the whole country.
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189' very wrong if I may say so.
look back in this very thread and a few earlier others, I have criticised Brown where I feel things have been done wrong.
How many Conservatives would you find doing that with teflon Dave?
So your theory about not standing criticism just blew out of the window.
At times I too have genuine doubts about where Brown is taking us, then reality sets in and I feel more assured when I find out where.
If I do not like the said direction we are going in, I will never follow it like a sheep I will gripe like mad.
I have done so on past occasions, the Iraq war being the first example of that, I went ballistic about that situation and I said so loud and clear for weeks on end on another blog-site. I was told by a helluva lot of Tories that I was stark raving mad and the only people who supported me were the loony Tony Benn and the late Robin Cook.
I was in good company, who is the loonies now I ask you?
Do not come back with the you know what about Cameron not supporting it, he did at the time and changed his mind at a time of his chosing.
I at least stood firm on my principles, shame the leader of the opposition at the time did not either, they were privvy to first hand knowledge at the time I was not, just gut instinct. They are the politco's not me.
And before you remind me I know only too well that Cameron was not the leader of the opposition at the time.The Conservatives could have said I do agree with TB subject to a more in depth analysis later, they did not .
Once again the Tories are wise after the event has taken place.
I still think it is and was a mistake, however our lads and lasses are there and we must support them all 100%. I could never support that damn war itself.
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180. At 6:44 pm on 25 May 2008, grandantidote wrote:
173 NL NH with all the guff we've had from you recently, your trying to tell us you dont know which way you'll vote in 2010, well you dont have to tell us were all quite aware where your loyalties lie. last one I promise unless directly aimed at me.
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Look I will tell you what I told Eatonrifle. In 2005 I voted for NuLabour, gave them the benefit of the doubt. In the last three local elections I voted Lib/Dem. Quite honestly I don’t know who I will vote for in 2010. I have fought for over 40 years on the front line in the labour movement.
You will have to forgive me for using Teflon Tony and Mr Bean but they are the ones, who I see, have genetically engineered the Labour Party into the one it is today. That will continue and I make no apologies. I have many friends in the party at grass roots level and indeed many feel perturbed by the direction NuLabour have taken over recent years.
One of my personal friends is my local Labour MP. I have even told him that unless NuLabour show signs of returning to its core values he will not get my vote. The reason I have not decided who to vote for is that the only party than can oust NuLabour in my constituency is Tory. Like I say I have not made my mind up.
By the way I take your point in the last line.
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#194 (Kiwilegs)
You say that you have previously criticised Brown where you feel "things have been done wrong".
But here's the problem:
When YOU criticise Brown, apparently that's OK. However, when anyone else criticises Brown, we are doing "untold damage" to the country or selling it "down the Swanee". (#179)
You say I am "very wrong". Well, that's OK! Brown's supporters no doubt think everyone else is wrong, including all the voters who have just given Labour the boot in Crewe and Nantwich!
The truth is, Brown just isn't listening. His policies (tax-borrow-spend) are doing us no good. If he won't change course, it seems likely that he will be ousted just as Jim Callaghan was in 1979. Callaghan never won a general election either.
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196 Re distant traveller#
Again you are wrong in trying to presume what I think.
The people of Crewe and Nantwich have given Mr Brown a thoroughly, richly deserved kick up the Jacksie for the 10p debacle. However that has been corrected now,far too late in my view for that vote and I hope Labour learn the lesson of the "Tory Toff" that was not on, and very wrong to do so, they could have fought this by election on a lot more positive issues.
In my opinion, this is a well needed wake up call for Brown to get his act together. he will succede.
My opinions will never cease to amaze you, I am a free spirit, those that know me well for years are still finding that out. So do not allow yourself to think you can pre-empt what I am thinking, wait and see that way you will not recieve replies like this.
Be patient and observe do not jump to wrong conclusions.
As an aside I have no problem with people criticising Brown, the reality of the situation is I can see through criticism for the sake of criticism and the facts of the matter.
If people can come up with a positive reply and solutions to the problems I will challenge that where I feel it is wrong.
Mainly I am hearing from Brown's detractors neagative things and the Tory have no positive examples to offer as a real alternative, just a constant drip, drip, drip of inuendo without any solution being offered to solvethe problems.
Perhaps when you can offer that I just may take you more serious until then it is gripe for the sake of griping that is coming over to me loud and clear. Sorry,that is the facts of the matter as I see it.
Please try and convince me otherwise I like debate.
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Kiwilegs
I fear your confidence in Gordon is misplaced.
He hasn't corrected the 10p fiasco for 1.1m of the poorest workers because he cannot afford to do so. Therein lies the root of his problems.
He's run out of money and can no longer correct his mistakes or help cushion the blow of market forces. He's been on over-borrowed time for quite a while and his purse in now empty.
Politically, I suspect the country has grown tired of State interference in their everyday lives. Gordon has proved Govts are terribly inefficient and end up wasting bucket loads of our money.
That, in my view, was the signifcance of Crewe turning blue.
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Bill Middle England.
Correct Bill but there is all of next years tax take not started on yet, so he has time on his side.
Plus the fact the damage has been done and as there is no other impending By election coming up in the near future that Labour would have a chance of winning. So the mistake hopefully will do no more damage.
No chance of even thinking about Boris's seat in Henley that is far too safe a Tory stronghold, it was Heseltine's prior to him having it. which brings me to another point,
the unfortunate stabbing in London of the young Harry Potter star.
Very sad and I am not going to make political capital out of this. However the fool of a Shadow Home Secretary David Davis is on record this morning stating that the Government has not got to grips with Knife crime.
What does he want the Government to do, there are laws there to handle this sort of tragedy and to enforce the offence of even carrying a knife it is up to Judges to get them enforced. Davis would be the first to gripe if HMG were to introduce more laws to cover this saying there were enough in place already without adding any more.
This guy wants his cake and to eat it too.
Plus the fact has he never ever heard of parental responsibility?
Now you have heard me say this before but can I remind you we had 4 boys their eventual heights ranged from 5 feet 10 inches - 6 feet 6inches. One was even more than twice my body weight and I am all of 5 feet.
Their Father was until getting eldery and loosing height 6 feet 4 inches.
Now these boys never once, had either of us lift our hands to them ever.
I only done it only ever once to one of our little girls who when 4 years old she ran out onto Princess Street in Edinburgh whilst we were on holiday up there and I smacked her bottom hard out of sheer fright.
She is the only one I ever raised a hand to and I could have chopped them off after the deed. My husband was furious and I was sent to Coventry by the rest of them for the day as they thought their sister should not have been smacked.
Not once did those boys even think about carrying a knife, I shudder to think what their Father would have done had they even thought of it. But then I insisted they got a damn good education by checking their homework each and every night and please bear in mind there was 6 of them.
I took the boys to Rugby Practice when their Father was unavailable and the girls to Brownie's Girl Guides etc.
Our family never gave us a minuted trouble with the exception of schoolboy high spirits and the girls with untidyness not the boys. They were monitered far too closely as we think they are precious.
We were extremely careful with the Company they kept and they were brought up very strict, One telling from me was usually enough, their Father raising his eyebrows was enough to make them scatter. Now if we can be like this with 6 of them what are the parents of these youngsters doing to allow their offspring to even think of carrying knives and short of a government person chasing behind them what more can they do?
Have these parents and David Davis never heard of parental responsibility?
As a footnote and just as a bit of mischevious fun to lighten this up. Boris Johnstone said that he was going to stop these knifings.
Do you think that now he has added another paid part time job as a journalist to his already busy schedule he will manage it?
Tory greed of the first order, the Mayor of London's Job pays the big bucks but that is not good enough for Boris so like Oliver Twist he asks for more. These greedy Tories never change. Is William going to keep his after dinner speaking engagements on, if in the unlikely event they are ever elected?
Cameron needs to think hard about this as Williams Bank balance could be seriously damaged, after all it is the lucrative side lines that brings in the brass the the Foreign Sectretary's job is the peanut filler in.
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I have not seen the total relevance of the Scottish independence rants on some threads, but the evident belief of that lobby that it is pertinent to this particular thread is baffling. Could it be that they have simply lost the thread?
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To Kiwilegs 154,
Thanks for being balanced as so many here are not, I came from a true blue fathers family in London and a die hard mothers Socialist family in Merseyside so I got both sides from a young age. What turned me blue was coming up against Ken Livingstone at the beginning of the 70's and now my views differ across the spectrum. This is much like politics across the old EU as my PS friends who are Socialist activists and one even the local mayor are nothing like UK die-hard Socialists in views and as with you I have had many interesting chats with them. They are very concerned that the EU is being seen everywhere as being responsible for the misery that every country in feeling, and since 11% voted Front Nationale in the last election in my commune another councilor friend has the task of finding out why. All my sons friends who are 18+ are a major reason for this as they feel disenfranchised and unable to find meaningful, fair paid work with all the regulations and over taxing that goes on. The voting system here doesn't help as it is proportional and this means apart from a handful of fanatic parties there is little difference between the PS (Socialists), MR (Liberals) and Christian parties so little really changes between elections.
If Flanders (North Belgium) or Scotland split off it will cause a lot of technical problems regarding Nationality and what people who are non-Nationals can do. The EU rules do govern this and I asked for and was thankfully granted Belgian Nationality. This now allows me to deal with many forms of administration much more easily and I can now vote in Governmental or Regional elections. In Belgium you have to have been Domiciled for at least 7 years and I believe France is similar. If Scotland want to split the EU rules will govern both new entities (not sure about Scotland as it may lose membership) and if the politicians try to ignore them the UK will end up in the ECJ.
Even local cross border accords are now affected by the EU as a Francophone friend went to work in Compiegn, France for five years, was made redundant and now has to stay domiciled in France in order to get unemployment benefits. He has spoken to many in that area (Nord Pas de Calais) and their views are very similar to my friends in Wallonia. Sarkozy is as hated there as Brown is in the UK and Reynders (Finance minister) in Belgium and I get many jokes sent to me about the France and Belgium politicians as I am in a French speaking area. The cross border accords are found in many countries, Germany, Holland, Belgiium, France are ones I've seen myself and it is quite frankly disgraceful that the EU which claims to promote social mobility is in fact now killing it. The situation regarding Social matters like Pensions and Unemployment are cases in point as it's a mine field now for anybody whose worked in several countries.
Anyway I think this post is now long enough and just one general comment. I think this by-election result was needed and that Nu-Labour is past it's sell-by date as it's far too devious and corrupt. Whether Cameron will be any different is in the air as I've always held the belief that the biggest problem in UK politics is the Establishment behind the Government that pulls the strings, leaks memos etc. When these so called civil servants are changed you may see good governance but until then it will be just more of the same rubbish with the civil servants allowing only what benefits themselves.
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It seems to me that as far as this blog is concerned the lunatics are taking over the asylum.
Would some of them like to start their own blog and leave the rest of us alone. There are a few "ignores" on my list and it is growing.
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192#
The so called "broken promese" re the Lisbon Treaty.
Well I must admit I've not read the two documents and compared them, I doubt if many people have, you may be the exception. However, there are clearly two schools of opinion on this which therefore make it anything but "unequivical". On one side of the arguement is every EU country and their respectively democratically elected Governments on the other side of the arguement is the the largely right of centre Press, not necessarilly just in the UK plus largely anti-Europe voters on any issue.
Despite the loud noises being made by the Tory party, if in Government I wonder if they would actually be so foreful in their referendum arguements, as to be so out of step with the rest of the EU would expose us as a country to some very difficult questions IE in or out and suddenly a little bit awkward for Dave. Opposition easy, Government not quite so.
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to Solpugid #200,
"I have not seen the total relevance of the Scottish independence rants on some threads, but the evident belief of that lobby that it is pertinent to this particular thread is baffling. Could it be that they have simply lost the thread?"
The relevance of Scottish independence is that should Scotland go independent Gordon Brown is no longer in Westminster and he can not be an English MP from an English constituency once that happens since he will not have English Nationality unless he applies for it and is accepted. Any Labour leadership challenge, which is one aspect of this thread, would be wise to consider that any replacement should not be based in Scotland at the very least in order to evade a repeat contest should the SNP orchestrate independence.
Personally, I find it very irritating that whenever I listen to a minister on the BBC it is almost invariably a Scot, and I hate cronyism whether it is in Westminster with GB's fellow Scots or London when under the dreadful Ken Livingstone. Ken deserved to get kicked after his years of deceit and spin, just as Brown now deserves to go for never telling the truth and trying to hide the damage he has done personally to the economy and the people whilst chancellor.
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Buzet23. I will take this a little at a time to answer.
I have only ever been in Belgium once and that was when we were travelling back from I do believe it is called Achin in Germany, I need to be corrected if I am wrong with the spelling of that as it was very many moons ago. But not many kilometres from Dusseldorf where we had been staying.We travelled thorough Belgium and stayed the night in Bruge after passing through some of the battlefields that I had hear my Grandaddy talk about when I was a little girl,it was awe inspiring and my mind dwelt on what those soldiers must have gone through in WW1 dreadful.
After staying the night in Bruge with a beautiful Cathedral and great choccies a delightful City and I did find French speaking people in the hotel there thank heavens as I am told Dutch and Flemish are both hard languages to grasp and I had to use my schoolgirl memory to speak French then and as it was a long time since I had left school I did at first find that very hard to do, never-the-less I managed it.
Now in the 70's Ken Livingstone's policies were enough to turn me Blue. I hated the likes of him but none the less I did think he changed and done a very good job in London so credit to him where credit is due, he mellowed with age. I detested Derek Hatton full stop, not to mention Scargill, I much preferred the balanced views of his pre-decessor Joe Gormley. Neil Kinnock sorted that lot out and I returned to the Labour fold after having voted once for Thatcher as I truly believed she would make a difference, she did but not the way I hoped for.
I could not vote for Labour then as I was ashamed of the dead lying unburied and Unions trying to bring down a democratically elected government. Thatcher dashed all my hopes and dreams and boy did we suffer under her, that is a story for another day. She is the sole reason I am so anti-Tory. I do not dislike the people themselves only what they ever stood for since her and to be perfectly honest I do not know and I am very baffled as to what Cameron thinks now he changes his mind as often as a tart changes her lip-stick.
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204# Presumeably in that case you don't like the fact that the three most powerful Tories (Cameron, Osbourne, Johnson) are not only from the same country but the same school and same drinking club - now that is Cronyism!
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Buzet23 Well done to those who set out to find why people would vote for Front Nationale, if there were only two candidates here the NF and the Conservative I too would vote Conservative just to keep them out.
They are nasty people, they may get one or two council seats here, they will never become MP's.
One would have thought the Mosely crowd would have been dead and buried by now, but apparently not so, facists never will be whilst people of warped minds and closed opinions vote for them on a matter of race and not for what is happening inside of the Country and to lay the blame for all ills on these people is just plain wrong. We would be in a sorry state without all the different Nationalities we have in the NHS we have found them all to be wonderful of the very few occasions we have ever needed them.
The EU is definately not responsible for what is happening globally which brings me to another point to listen to Cameron it is the fault of Brown's he thinks Brown can control all that is happening in the USA housing market, food shortage and steep oil price rises. here in this Country we are cushioned the only problem being we have idiots who do not realise it. We spend quite some time in the USA, please do not get me wrongs our son and daughter in law are well heeled but even they say they are feeling the heat on the price of gas (petrol) as they have to travel miles each days to and from the Hospital they both practice in.
The other thing they are feeling the heat on is this, they do not enjoy the same system as we do here regarding pensions they have to protect their own retirement by buying what we would call stocks and shares. They set up their own portfolio with the aid of advisors. Bear in mind they are also professionals and the Insurance they must pay for is exorbitant for the fear of being sued as the USA is a litigious society who will sue at the drop of the hat for one mistake or a wrong diagnosis.
They also have two boys one at an Ivy league University they other about to enter. These boys learned the work ethic young, so they both have part time jobs to pay for their keep at Uni whilst our son pays mind blowing fees which keep rising rapidly. the younger of the boys has set up his own little enterprise of cleaning house swimming pools so you see every Country is definately feeling the pinch. Not just the EU or the UK.
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Buzet23 next borders.
If I am reading you correct I would say this was more the fault of your friend he should have decided sooner whether or not he wished to be considered a resident of Belgium or of France he cannot have his cake and eat it too.
Now as for Sarkozy I think he is a pompus little man, having said that France is definately in need of someone who will take the bull by the horn and not give way to the bullying tactics you do know the French employ to get there own way. They have a Coloured and Muslim underclass there and these people need to be more included and that include the many French Algerians that are already there, they are treated like second class citizens and that is not on. The highest unemployment is to be found around the coloured, Islamic and French Algerian people and I can tell you from first hand knowledge these people are extremely hard workers given half a chance, that is all they ask for or need. Whether Sarkozy is hated or not France has to be sorted out as the militants are ruining that Country for their own self serving reasons, to hell with others greedy guts wants the lot is the attitude and the stronger the bully the worse it is, they do not suffer the, weaker in society does. That is unfair.
I cannot agree with your findings that the EU is killing social mobility it is a world wide problem made more stark by militant French people who think they can throw their dummies out of the pram and get their own way or blockade their Country. I hope Sarkozy is strong enough to sort it.
It does not matter that he is not liked as long as he gets on with the job, you know and I know that it is long overdue to sort miltants out. It is becoming a mess. Sarkozy needs to show them he is running the Country not them. That was what he was voted in to do now he has to grab the bull by the horns.
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#189 Distant Traveller. Easy my friend, just give us some constructive criticism, and If your as clever as you believe you are how about a few suggestions about what you and Dave would do in situations that you constantly point out.
What is it that Tories dont understand about constitution and treaty do they honestly believe that a copy of the constitution and a copy of the treaty should have been sent out to every voter in the country and if not why not, how else could you have a fair referendum.
I personally think that Tony Blair made a big mistake in suggesting a referendum on the constitution, we elect governments to decide these things for us and if you dont think their capable then you should'nt vote for them.
I will give you an example of the folly of the referendum, I was talking to two women this week both of who I have much respect for one middle aged one in her early twenties, I asked them what they thought about the referendum the younger one said what referendum the older one said yes I've heard about it but I really dont have any views on it, I have also spoken to a couple of young men and asked them the same question with almost identical results, and as much as I like and respect these people there is no way that I would want them to vote blindly on the future of this country.Finally we were never at any time offered a referendum on the Libon treaty as much as you bandwagon tories wish there had been, the fact is it was'nt offered because as your friends Gummer and Ken Clark said it was'nt needed.
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Buzet23 The Flanders part of your post re: Scotland I can never see that happening and would cross that bridge if ever I came to it. Highly unlikely in my view however I can be wrong. In France one has to be domiciled 7 years I do believe and it is only an opinion that this was done to curtail the rise of the West Africans living in France, where they really are not welcome sorry to say. they bleed the same colour as us when cut.
Now for social matters such as pensions I gave you a solution which our son in the USA does it is the norm there. One is better protecting one's own pension as people are living longer these days plus the fact my granny was a real old lady at fifty years old whereas at seventy + I am as fit as a butchers dog, can still move fast and have a very active brain. Long may it continue but that is the way nature moves on.
Keep healthy keep active and live a long time, no good sit waiting for the undertaker, do something get interested in something, anything just to keep the old grey cells lively.
Plese try and keep the post for me to reply to smaller, do not take me wrong I enjoy doing it but I have to keep scrambling back to where I left off, to find out what I am on about.
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Kiwilegs,
You're right about the French, my friend was a senior manager (Cadre) and he used the "yet another disaster pulled from the jaws of victory" phrase a lot as he was in the transport industry and had people throughout France. However, concerning my Friend I would remind you that the EU encourages social mobility and open borders. If you are unemployed in your country you are encouraged to find work, and one of those ways is by going to another country for up to three months (unemployment paid by new country), if you find work you stay or if you don't you can return with no problems. The trap is when you work over the three months, since then you are under the new country's social system and yours will not allow you to regain your former unemployment status no matter how many years you've paid into their system. Instead you have to rely on local social aid from the CPAS (in Belgium). I don't see this as having your cake and eating it as he could have just sat on the dole until retirement age. Your son, if he lives in France should be aware of this as unless he is cadre the benefits and rules are not so great. When this occurred I also looked at the UK gov site and it seems to apply in the UK, although it's very hazy with references to consultations. It seems the best chance in getting the dole when coming to UK PLC is to fit into one of the exception category's, unemployed Nationals returning won't it seems. Whether they can qualify for any other benefits I don't know as the web site is most unclear.
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204
What you say is fair, but one can say many things about Gordon Brown. My point was to wonder what direct implications Crewe could possibly have for Scottish_English partition, which while a live political issue still does not belong in every political forum into which it is dragged. And surely it is not on the same geological timescale as any Brown leadership challenge.
The question is answerable, but only very indirectly, as indeed with the answer you provide.
But it is a small point.
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To Kiwilegs,
I just saw your last post and whist the 7 years may be an EU wide trick to reduce immigration it seems certain North African (French Speaking) countries are in the exception category. Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia all seem to be special cases, even in the UK.
As for pensions, well Gordon Brown knocked that one out for me as far as my private pension funds went but research QROPS for your sons, and whilst all your working years are counted for entitlement to state pensions, you are in the hands of each country you've worked in. For instance, my Belgian years will be paid by Belgium and my UK years by the UK, all rates, rules etc are therefore different for each. If you've enjoyed social mobility and worked in many countries it will be a quagmire to calculate it all amidst the differing and often contradictory rules and regulations.
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#210
Kiwilegs
You are asking other people to keep their posts smaller ?!?!?
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212,
You're right about Scotland and Crewe but I'm thinking more in the future as the possible exclusion of non-nationals that currently vote would change the marginal seat landscape totally.
I think the Crewe effect was maybe due to a number of factors as a prior poster cleverly articulated. As well as dissatisfaction with Nu-Lab the social landscape of Crewe has changed with less old type engineering factories (traditionally Socialist) and more new style small industrial units which are not so politically aligned partially due to weakened or no unions. Add to this the emergence of offices and leisure industries and the political landscape becomes much less traditional. I guess even die hard old Socialist Frank Field of Birkenhead must be very worried as he's in a very traditional old Socialist seat, well liked there by voters across the spectrum, and maybe that's why he spoke up on the 10p issue.
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210# if you do not like it pal, or think they are too long, do not read them. Nobody is twisting your arm up your back are they?
Buzet23 seems to think I am worth replying to or he would not communicate with me. I did after all give my reasons. If Buzet had a problem with that, I am quite sure he would have said so would you not agree?
So what is your problem then?
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#216
Kiwilegs
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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211 Buzet: I did not make myself clear regarding our son. He lives part time in Paris running his own French- UK business, his wife our daughter-in- law lives here and she runs the UK end of it. This is rather a large house and they had a purpose built Granny flat built for us on the land just outside of here, the problem being it was far too modern for my Husband who hates it so she lives in the Granny Flat during the week and is joined by our son at weekend or until he decides to go back. It is more cost effective to keep the Flat in Paris than it is to use the Hotels which as you know even in Paris leave a lot to be desired unless one pays exorbitant prices which have to be paid for out of business returns. So Pensions do not affect him he has them privately plus the fact the business is extremely successful.
I must admit I was completely unaware of the unemployment situation in Belgium as I have no first hand knowledge of Belgium, having only stayed their once over night but one lives and learns.
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217# Good it is time naughty children had their nap. It is the norm to put the infants down around 2pm.
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Kiwilegs,
One thing I forgot to say about regaining unemployment rights when returning to your home country is that you have to re-establish yourself. In Belgium you have to find work for at least one day, that may sound easy but it can be difficult as many people are looking for full time temping contracts in such places as call centres, help desks, shops etc. In the arondisment (area) where I live the unemployment rate is between 20% and 25% and there are not so many jobs available. When you add to that the age discrimination that still exists throughout the EU anyone over 50, or even 40, has little chance. The age problem must also be a real factor in the UK regarding the by-election result and local election results, as outright rejection of job applications due to your age is very annoying and frustrating even if it is supposed to be illegal now.
PS. I've been part of the 20 odd percent for some years now which is why I've looked hard at the rules.
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#209 grandantidote
You write "we were never at any time offered a referendum on the Lisbon treaty as much as you bandwagon tories wish there had been"
Perhaps you've forgotten Labour's 2005 manifesto. Labour said "We will put it to the people in a referendum and campaign whole-heartedly for a 'yes' vote" (see page 84 Labour Party Manifesto 2005).
We also need to remember that the original treaty was described by Labour as "a good treaty for Britain and for the new Europe". (also page 84 of the manifesto). However, after the French and Dutch rejected this treaty, a new one was cobbled together. Now Gordon tells us that this new version is so much better! Well, why did they endorse the original one then? How can we trust Gordon now?
Gordon tells us that this new version is substantially different, hence no referendum is required. However, Giscard d'Estaing (the person who helped write it) tells us that in key parts it is "practically unchanged".
The real reason we (and the rest of Europe apart from Ireland) were denied a referendum is that our political masters knew the people would vote no.
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#203 Eatonrifle
It comes down to a question of trust. I'm not sure why you say "the so called "broken promise" re the Lisbon Treaty"
Have a look at the Labour Party manifesto 2005. It says:
"We will put it to the people in a referendum and campaign whole-heartedly for a 'yes' vote" (see page 84 Labour Party Manifesto 2005).
You say you haven't read the two documents and compared them. Brown tells us they are substantially different, but former French President Valery Giscard d'Estaing tells us that key parts remain "practically unchanged". He should know; he helped write it!
Once a party breaks a manifesto pledge, they will lose the trust of the voters.
We may agree or disagree over the merits of the treaty. However, the real question is whether voters can trust Gordon Brown.
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221distant traveller. I guess you must be the only person in Britain that does'nt know that it refered to the constitution, the first people to jump to their feet in parliament after the French referendum were the Tories not one of them but several claiming with great gusto " the European constitution is dead in the water". when it was dropped and a separate treaty was drawn up. just in pages alone only a third the size of the constitution every country in the EU declared no interest in a referendum except Ireland who had no choice under their own constitution. We were at no time Thank God offered a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, in 2005 there was no Lisbon treaty to have a referendum on. the only reason the anti EU tory party wanted a referendum was so their Tory press could lay a frenzied anti European attack on the EU probably resorting to their straight bananas guff that the've been peddling for years there would have been a massive propagander attack by the press you know it I know it and the Tories certainly knew it, as for Gisgard de Estaing we all know what he and a few others said but 27 other countries leaders did'nt agree with him.
had there have been a referendum which John Major And Margaret Thatcher seemed averse too and had there have been a no vote it would have been the worst tragedy for this country since World war Two.
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203#
Eatonrifle reading 222 I can see now why a referendum would be a dangerous thing. It amazes me that people can make comments like quote " The French President Valery Giscard d' Estaing tells us that the key parts "remain practically unchanged"
Of course they do for the French, the French went for different opt outs than Tony Blair negotiated for the UK.
I think Hammer and chisel would be appropriate at times, Gordon Brown has said this heaven knows how many times, but it still never sinks in.
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#223 grandantidote
We have drifted into a discussion about the treaty, although my intention was really to highlight why this government cannot be trusted.
Regarding Giscard d'Estaing, you are not correct that "27 other countries leaders didn't agree with him". In fact, quite a few leaders have confirmed the new and old treaty are indeed very similar, and you can find the quotes quite easily on the internet.
You are against referendums (or referenda if you prefer). Fair enough!
You said earlier (#209) "Tony Blair made a big mistake in suggesting a referendum on the constitution". OK, if that’s what you think!
But later on (#209) you say "we were never at any time offered a referendum on the Lisbon treaty as much as you bandwagon tories wish". Well, you can't have it both ways! Either we were offered one or we weren't.
If you are 'for' the treaty and 'against' a referendum, that's your choice! But let's not pretend that Gordon has kept to the party's manifesto promise when clearly he has not.
This issue is just one example of why Gordon has lost the trust of the British people.
All spin and no trousers!
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224#
Damn Tories - they just don't get it, eh ?
GISELA STUART, Labour MP for Birmingham Edgbaston and former UK parliamentary representative on the Convention on the Future of Europe: "I would have thought that it [the call for a referendum] was a classic New Labour agenda. We are the party that has asked the people far more often than any other party has done before. I can see, having skimmed through this new document, that all the big items are still in there."
GWYNETH DUNWOODY, Labour MP for Crewe and Nantwich and chairman of Commons transport committee: "The proposed EU treaty needs to be debated in great detail. I have strong reservations about the moves on the part of Europe to consolidate legislation and have great concerns about the proposed changes. In the rare case of the treaty, I believe we have to make an exception and have a referendum."
BOB CROW, general secretary of the RMT union: "Chancellor Merkel says it's essentially the same document, former French president Giscard d'Estaing says it's 'very, very near' the original. So does Giuliano Amato, who should know, because he helped write it. It is the back-door constitution that would transform the EU into a state and transfer power to an unelected EU government. For working people it would be a disaster."
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# 225 distant traveller. I dont want it both ways Tony offered the referendum on the constitution, that I did'nt agree with. he or Gordon never offered a referendum on the Lisbon treaty,if they had I would have disagreed with that I dont believe in government by referendum, neither did Mrs T or Mr Major so in your book I am in esteemed company, surely your assumption that I want it both ways is your error not mine, its not very difficult to understand, once again tories confuse constitution with treaty. Of course he's kept the referendum promise there was no constitution, as it was as the Tories said, dead in the water so what would have been the point, even Dave and the lads agreed with that ,the trouble is that you people wont let it go, no constitution no referendum. Lisbon Treaty no referendum offered,so no loss of trust only by people like you that by saying it enough times you think it will harm Labour. Still waiting for some Tory to tell me that he has read both the Constitution and the Treaty, including Bob Crow who is a bigger enemy to the labour party than the old boys club of Eton.I think the only person that I can believe with certainty that they've read it is Bill Cash. Operative words in your post"very similar".
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226# Good quotes, undoubtedly. The question is it a broken promise depends on is the Constitutional Treaty? As far as I'm aware this no longer exists. The some would say similar "Lisbon Treaty" didn't even exist in 2005 so the Manifesto couldn't really have related to that. I go back to a point I made earlier, If the Conservatives took power next week in my opinion the bravado about holding a referendum may suddenly seem not so strong. THe Uk like most countries in Western Europe may reject the treaty if put to a popular vote. But if we did this unilaterally returned a no vote, what then? This question has been posed mainly by the Lib Dems a number of times to the Euro Sceptic Tories (most of them) and it goes unanswered cos the actual answer is in the "too difficult tray" The bottom line in black and white is that the issue is a bit grey but strictly there are/were 2 treaties, the manifesto referred to the first.
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228#
I'm glad you like the quotes, even though they take the polar opposite view from you ie that the change from 'constitution" to 'treaty' is a new label on the same parcel.
If it's big and gray and has a trunk it's an elephant. Changing it's name and callling it a mouse doesn't alter the reality.
There is a case for saying this is not an issue suitable for a referendum and I have some sympathy for that view from a constitutional standpoint.
However, having promised a referendum when it was convenient for short term political purposes, there is no honest case for saying the issue is materially different.
If I'm am going to be misled, I would prefer it to be plausible.
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Nu / or now fairly old nu labour are finished
we are are all now finished thanks to Dear Prudence
Gordon is finished - thank Gord
time to leave as it will become clear what this self full filling idot has done
Tasmania anyone?
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# 227 grandantidote
You seem to be saying the promise of the referendum only applied to the original 'constitution', not the new 'treaty' which came later. You say "once again tories confuse constitution with treaty".
Perhaps you should look at the exact wording in the Labour 2005 manifesto (pages 83-84). It says:
"The Treaty sets out what the EU can do and what it cannot. It strengthens the voice of national parliaments and governments in EU affairs. It is a good treaty for Britain and for the new Europe. We will put it to the British people in a referendum....."
In other words, it was ALWAYS a treaty! Your suggestion that the earlier version was a 'constitution' whereas the new one is somehow only a 'treaty' is wrong. It’s a false distinction! It is a treaty that deals with the constitution of the EU. You can see from the manifesto that there was an unequivocal promise of a referendum on the TREATY - a promise that Gordon broke.
To explain this broken promise, Gordon claims that the new Treaty is quite different to the old one. However, as already discussed, many eminent people (including those in favour of the Constitutional Treaty) have made it clear that the two documents are in fact very similar.
Perhaps you will remember in 2003 (before Blair promised the referendum) Peter Hain tried to tell us it was just a "tidying-up exercise". They must think we were born yesterday! How can we trust them?
You are entitled to be pro-treaty and anti-referendum if that is what you believe. You have got your wish! However, most people know we have been conned.
Once a government loses trust, it will pay the price at the next election.
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230# Tasmania anyone?
Please You, and don't write.
"We are now all finished" talk about over-dramatising.
You live in the 4th richest country in the world, you own a computer (clearly) as a guess probanly a car and house, probably in employment and if not you'll receive support from the state (rightly). If you get sick you see a Dr free at point of delvery, if serious you get taken to hospital etc etc. Some people have a strange utopian view as to how the world should be and even if it was you'd still moan your head off. I'm guessing by pure fate you were born in the UK. Your life could have started in the Sudan or Zimbabwe or Bosnia or Bangladesh for goodness sake get things into perspective and stop wallowing in selfish self pity!
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# 231 distant traveller if you want to be pedantic and call the constitution a constitultional treaty which of course it was but you know exactly what I meant by calling it a constitution and the later agreement a treaty, but to attempt once again to make it crystal clear, the manifesto in 2005 promised a referendum on the constitutional treaty.
In 2006 or was it 2007 the constitutional treaty was thrown out by the French And Dutch, as the Tories proclaimed, the constitutional treaty was dead in the water, finished,kaput. And all agreed. Now since there were 15 more countries in the EU, then it was obvious that there had to be changes in the administration if it was to work effectively, The word Constitution appeared to be the stumbling block with a number of countries including our own they already had constitutions we did'nt.so a New treaty was drawn up not a constitutional treaty which dealt with the problems that some people were not happy with, this was to be called the Lisbon treaty although obviously similar as it had to deal with the same problems it was not anything like the burdensome proposed constitutional treaty, containing about one third of the volume of the constitutional treaty, since the original constitutional treaty was proclaimed dead by the Tories then the necessity to have a referendum had become null and void as agreed by the French and the Dutch who had thrown out the original constitutional treaty and the rest of the EU countries with the exception of Ireland. So we have the Lisbon treaty no breaking of promises no deceit nothing other than the Lisbon treaty that gained full support from a number of prominent Tories including Ken Clark and Mr Gummer.
There was nothing sinister about Gordon Brown not being there until two hours after the other leaders, David Milliband was there to represent GB until he arrived, GB was at a previously planned select committee that I watched on TV and he was in good spirits and two hours Later he was on TV signing the Lisbon treaty also in good spirits, which I also watched. Had he not have appeared at the select committee the Tories among you would have been saying " There he is putting the EU before his own country"because he did'nt do that the Tories are claiming he was ashamed to be seen signing the Lisbon treaty with the other leaders. God the man cant win.
I hope Distant traveller that that will clear the dispute up but I fear not, you anti european people are so intransigent that if the angel Gabreil came down to tell you it would'nt make an atom of difference.
We are all aware as I have said previously that the dyed in the wool Tories with the the enthusiastic support of the anti Labour anti EU Tory press would have led a full scale vitriolic attack on the EU, and you all would have followed even knowing that to reJect the treaty would be to the detriment of the country. and you people are supposed to care about Great Britain,
I am still waiting to hear whether you think copies of both should have been sent to every voter, also have you read them, since you appear to think that the people of this country have been cheated i would have thought that you at least would have read them and would be fully in support of every one being offered the chance. I also have not heard from anyone else who has claimed to have read them, be carful how you answer, there will be questions.
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#195 NLNH. There would be much more credence given to your post if you dropped the silly name calling, as can be seen in this post.
You say you were a labour supporter for forty years that wants some believing but I will take you word for it, if you were then you obviously are one of the dinosaurs that think that we can go back and nationalise everthing, if we had kept to those policies we would not have got back in power ever again, those days are gone forget them. the only decision you have to make is to decide whether NuLabour although not doing everything you want is better than the Tories doing nothing that you want. Go for it!
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#233 grandantidote
Oh dear. I really have tried to answer your points courteously and to the best of my ability, but I feel we are now going round in circles. We have also drifted from the original topic! (My earlier point being the referendum was only one of several issues causing problems for Labour's electoral chances).
You previously berated me for (as you saw it) being confused between the constitution and the treaty. In your opinion, the manifesto promise of a referendum only applied to the constitution, not the treaty.
I pointed out that Labour's manifesto promised a referendum on "the Treaty". You are now saying that because the new document is called the Lisbon Treaty and not a "constitutional treaty" the promise of the referendum no longer applies. This is indeed what Gordon would like us to believe. And you do!
As you say, it is true that after the Dutch and French voted "no", a great deal of work went on behind the scenes to make the new version appear less like a constitution. However, many take the view that most of original constitution still survives in tact, although now presented differently. (You can make your own mind up about this). Margot Wallstrom, European Commissioner, is reported as saying "It's essentially the same proposal as the old constitution". The BBC reports that even Giscard d'Estaing said it was effectively the same!
See BBC web page: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7069181.stm
You then said (#223) that 27 European Leaders did not agree with d'Estaing. But actually, leaders from Germany, Demark, Spain, Czechoslovakia, Finland and Ireland have all said that most of the constitutional parts of the treaty have been preserved. (The exact quotes are easy to find on the internet).
The only Leader pretending the old and new treaties are completely different is our Gordon! Apparently, you believe him. Many of us don't! And that is why people are saying he has broken his promise.
Amongst the cosmetic changes were ditching references to the European flag and anthem. (Big deal!)
You ask if I think copies should have been sent to every household. Well, probably no point if we are not having a referendum! However, the Lisbon Treaty is freely available in PDF on the internet if you want to read it for yourself. Giscard d'Estaing explains the treaty was drafted by legal experts but it is impenetrable for the public. I wonder why?
Despite all this, if you are still happy with Gordon's explanation, so be it!
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Since we don't have a strand can I ask people's opinion on fuel tax and motoring expenses which look likely to be the government's next U turn opportunity.
On fuel, am I right in believing we pay tax on fuel using our already taxed income and then pay VAT on the fuel tax as well as the fuel?
Also, with the proposed licence increases does anyone agree that if this goes a head on older cars, mainly owned by the less well of, the value of these cars will be next to nothing and hence when they need to be replaced or upgraded this will efectively be yet another stealth tax although this will not go to the government?
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236#
There is a respectable case for further postponing the proposed 2p increase - and perhaps even for reducing fuel tax rates, if only temprorarily.
Pump prices have increased well beyond any expectations - with adverse economic consequences, contributing to inflation etc, at a time of already difficult circumstances. And, from a 'green' perspective, prices have comfortably passed the level which will cause people who have to think twice about their driving habits.
In terms of pound note tax take, the Treasury will gain from the North Sea oil prices and from its tax share of the increased pump prices.
Gordon Brown could have seized the initiative and taken a decision - making it clear that the that position would be reviewed again if/when prices fall. Surely not too difficult a spin for a government which spins like a top on much less plausible stuff.
Instead he has dithered and anything he does now will like look U-turns, caving in to pressure from tabloid media, the Tories his back benchers, transport lobby fuel protests etc.
The supreme irony is that the fear of being seen to do this is now a disincentive to do the right thing. Still, my guess is he'll be forced to take some action eventually.
One of these days, his indecision will be final.
Re the retrospective element of licence fee increases - plain wrong and,typically, sneaked out in the small print detail at the time. He should have dropped this idea and incorporated that decision in the detail of fuel tax freezing or reduction.
As someone once said - if we are to have retrospective legislation and tax increases that's fair enough so long as the Government gives us retrospective voting so that we can back-date their removal.
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Nick, it's great to read your blog, as it helps me stay in touch with my 'second home', as I have returned home aborad after 7 years.
I have quoted some of your comments with regards to the recent elections, and particularly to the By-election in Crewe and Nantwich on May 23, currently on my blog (http://mwurz1975.wordpress.com/2008/05/28/new-labour-on-its-way-out/#more-71), to be printed in The Vienna Review, June 2008 edition.
I believe that Gordon Brown's premiership might indeed be limted, and if Labour would like to stay in government after the next general elections, the have to seriously consider 'other options'
Best regards
Matthias Wurz
Executive Editor
The Vienna Review
http://mwurz1975.wordpress.com/
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236mikepko
The fact that events have caught up with your suggestion so rapidly since it was posted makes your point for you. Daily it seems the government backs down from yet another position and of course the new fuel tax is the latest on the skids. It is like Major, it is almost like Thatcher's last days, it is a bit worrying for the prospects of the stability we are promised. Someone the other day was asking for a definition of Brownism, which one might think a bit premature, but fiscal tricks without a big picture, a risky scenario, might already be enough to sum it up. But Gordon is once again extremely lucky; that fuel tax would have been his Poll Tax. However, is it really all that safe to be constantly jumping to the dead ball area at the sound of backbench rumbling?
Cheers
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Talk about live and learn, one does so every day.
I thought the intense animosity between Nu Labour and a certain Political Editor and the Political news he fronts was a comparatively new thing. Not so, now it appears that it goes as far back as John Presscott throwing that widely televised punch. Which most red blooded male thought was richly deseved, in fact any MAN with Canobies would have probably done the same. Perhaps some have never heard of Canobies.
I though it was down to the latest good fortunate of "Call me Dave" that had them in raptures, apparently not so, it goes further back, which could explain the reason we now appear to have one official Conservative blog-site and another un-official one. How jolly!
The Prime Minister and the Cabinet have an uphill battle, not only battling a sceptical public at the moment , aided and abetted by what appears to be petty reporting by a very biased news outlet.
What makes it worse we have silly selfish panicking Labour MP's so disloyal to our PM that they would break their neck for one day of a few minutes fame, spout off on that outlet, knowing full well about the bad blood that appears to exist between one former extremely high placed Labour politician and a national political editor without realising what damage they are doing, the fools are being used but their ego's are too big to see it.
They should get behind our PM not gripe at the edges or on national TV.
Talk about giving oxygen to the enemy, some Labour minnows will never learn to get off their damn knees, support Gordon Brown and fight back hard!
A very good start made to all of yesterday, even the enemy had to grudgingly admit that, I would wager it would damn nearly choke them to do so.
Never mind I am sure today that they will find something detrimental to say about Labour. As of 6am though I have not heard it, perhaps I am either going a little bit deaf or a lot daft. You pay your money you take your choice.
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Just when I thought there was going to be at least one day of good news for Gordon Brown on a very anti Brown anti Labour news channel, in my opinion, I was sadly mistaken.
Out from the woodwork comes James Whale, one of the regular anti Labour motormouths covering todays newspapers.
This objectionable character hunted high and low to find anything awful that was being said about labour and the the speaker and his pension caught his attention. He complained bitterly about the ammount the Speaker will recieve in his pension settlement.
Has nobody told this fool the speakers pension would be the same whether he was Labour, Tory or Liberal.
But ah no! the boot has to go in for no other reason than it is being held at the moment by a Labour Politician.
I used the off switch instead of listening to any more of his venom.
I think this channel only selects those that are very anti-Labour to comment on what the Papers so.
Tune in, Judge for yourselves.
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sorry to change the subject Kiwilegg but does any one feel the same way as I about Piers Morgan I am sick of seeing this guy on so many programs. practically every time I put the TV on I see his face grinning back at me they even invite him onto Question time and this is the same guy who brought our troops into disrepute in Iraq by publishing fake photographs of british troops abusing Iraqi prisoners, OK he got sacked for it but he has been brought onto practicaly every talk show on air by both the BBC and the ITV stations, now I know this guy has to make a living but do we really have to see him constantly grinning at us, A hundred years ago he would have recieved the death sentence.
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I am sick an tired of seeing Piers Morgan discussing politics on TV after the inapropriate way he hehaved when he was sacked from the Daily Mirror Does anyone agree with me.
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#240 kiwilegs have to agree again. I have several times before suggested that the labour rebels need to work with the rest of the party its the ones with pretty safe seats that are calling the others to vote with them against the government. I have come to the conclusion that Jeremy Corburn and his crowd have settled for the fact that their never going to get anywhere in government so they have decided that they get MPs wages without the worry of the cabinet all they have to do is sit tight and they've got a job for life, does'nt matter what party are in power their jobs are secure they can vote against or for any party whichever suits them they'll still pick up there wages come what may.and is'nt it strange that many of them are embittered exministers or perhaps not so strange.
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He's a clever boy but not too smart. Sure, he's entertaining and chummy but can be quite destructive and insensitive. I'm not sure he deserves the status or attention he gets. I think, he's banal and just trivialises things. That just corrodes sound reasoning and social wellbeing.
Putting aside personal standing and party loyalties they've been showing more ego than sense. And that goes for all the people who've been feeding bad news from within the NHS and other organisations. I agree, they've confused their personal frustrations with reality.
I figure, once people have clicked to this and stop obsessing and moaning a more rounded picture will emerge and the government will bounce back to a sounder level of popularity and be freer to focus on more useful things. Sure, they need to pull their socks up but the Tories getting into power before they've really changed does nobody any good. Faking it doesn't count.
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246#
Charles
I agree with you about Piers Morgan. He is an odious creature who can't see a belt without hitting below it - and all in an endless quest for nothing other than self-promotion. I agree he is blessed with cleverness but, for me, that compounds the felony.
However, I'm not so sure I'd mention him in the same volume, let alone the same blog thread, as Jeremy Corbyn. By no means would I class myself as a fellow believer of Corbyn in terms of his politics but I think that, even if sometimes misguided, he is sincere and principled by most standards. For sure, however, he is an absolute paragon of these virtues in comparison to Morgan.
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All very slow this morning no controversial views to air, Not too much response to Piers Morgan has he stolen his way into your hearts with his winning smile?
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June is bursting out all over, a lovely day, here anyway. But the posts on this blog, very quite. Nicks back tomorrow. perhaps he'll put life back into this one at least.
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grandantidote wrote:
I am sick an tired of seeing Piers Morgan discussing politics on TV after the inapropriate way he hehaved when he was sacked from the Daily Mirror Does anyone agree with me.
For once I entirely agree with you. The fact that he is also extremely pally with Gordon Brown doesn't do the P.M. any favours either!
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#249 mutleyspup, nice to have your support on something at least, not sure how friendly he is with GB but I have seen him on Question time being kind to Tories so who knows what he thinks but I dont trust him and I am amazed that the media are cosying up to him,we complain about our MPs of all colours and their expenses and yet this guy is making a fortune mainly on the notoriety he gained over letting his country down. You did'nt really need to put the GB bit in did you? Its a strange strange World.
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