Sunday Sequence visits Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle
Following allegations, from former church members, of a lack of transparency at Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle, Pastor James McConnell, pictured, invited Sunday Sequence to visit the church last week. You can listen to Malachi O'Doherty's report on that visit, which you can listen to here, has been widely covered locally and internationally. Jim McConnell reveals that he brought five men from his church in Belfast and destroyed a children's home his congregation had established in Romania last year because he feared that the building would fall into the hands of "a paedophile ring in the Romanian government". A spokesperson for the Romanian government strongly denies Pastor McConnell's claims, which have now been reported in Romanian newspapers.
In response to enquiries from Sunday Sequence about financial accountability and transparency, Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle has explained that Pastor McConnell's salary is £25K, the church's annual running costs are in the region of £1.2 million, the congregation's affairs are overseen by seven trustees (including three of the church's pastors and Jim McConnell). Pastor McConnell also told the programme, "our accounts are open to anybody who wants to look at them if they are members of this church."
Listen again to Malachi O'Doherty's report here.
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
The knives are well and truly out for Jim McConnell. And yet again, we'll have a long list of disgruntled comments from miserable Christians to keep this thread going for another few weeks until another comes along. Well done William! Hope you're enjoying yourself...
Complain about this comment
what do you mean by your above comments dom
Complain about this comment
Oh for pities sake!
Complain about this comment
What do you all mean by all your comments. Thank you.
Complain about this comment
John
What do I mean? What do you mean, what do I mean? I mean, what do you mean asking me what I mean; I meant what I said for pities sake!
:-)
Complain about this comment
petermorrow, very good lol, But what do you mean?????
Complain about this comment
What do I mean? (sorry, couldn't resist!)
I'm standing in fear of another six hundred and sixty gazillion postings!
I make the current count 1360 comments about a church split; if it's that bad (and I've no idea how bad it is) just go and talk to each other. Pick up the phone, knock a door, send a text, drink coffee; ask someone you think you can trust a few questions to try and satisfy yourselves as best you can about what did or didn't happen and then make a decision. Stay and try to make things better, or go somewhere else you think you can fit in. If you can't get answers then bite the bullet and walk. Honestly, God won't mind.
If someone asks you what happened answer them honestly without resorting to slander or gossip; if mistakes were made, be they big or small, own up, say, yep we goofed up, and try and put things right. But do something, let it go, move on, but whatever else, don't get stuck in a destructive rut.
Complain about this comment
Peter,
Clearly what you mean is that I have the means to mean whatever I mean and it would be mean to claim that i don't. Now stop it. I mean it.
Complain about this comment
John
You're a meanie.
Complain about this comment
Peter
It all means nothing to me, absoloutly meaningless.
Look above the your comment box all posts are moderated What does this mean?
Complain about this comment
Mean mean mean mean mean
Complain about this comment
"(O)ur accounts are open to anybody who wants to look at them if they are members of this church."
Most churches present accounts to their members annually at a business meeting. At such meetings people are usually allowed to ask questions from the open floor to a treasurer. Is that the case at Whitewell? Or is Pastor McConnell saying that members of Whitewell have to seek out financial information themselves?
In addition, are these accounts externally audited and, if so, by whom?
When did the last church business meeting take place? What was on the agenda?
Who are the seven trustees?
Complain about this comment
McConnell is an old semantic at heart, when he said that they had a business meeting he didnt elaborate on what he actually meant by business meeting, I presume that he wasnt referring to an open congregational business meeting, but to a closed one of the WW hierarchy as he said that we have a business meeting and then he tells the people.
McConnell said that the accounts are open to the members of Whitewell, but what about those who attend the church and are not communicant members and use envelopes and sign gift aid declarations so that WW can claim tax on tithes given by non communicant members, do they not have the same right as a WW member who doesnt tithe or have WW envelopes.
Its a sad day when an organization such as Sinn Fein shows more financial transparency than WWMT by publishing their accountants for public scrutiny. Should not the Body of Christ be more open than a worldly political party, why should a church within the Body of Christ behave in such a clandestine manner by hold their business meeting behind closed doors not open to the congregation.
Complain about this comment
Peter Morrow's comment on post7 is by far the most sensible in this entire blog. It's worth a read.
Complain about this comment
From the context of the questioning, the interviewer was trying to find out the internal procedures by which Whitewell conducts important business. A meeting involving salaried employees of the church and/or a handpicked clique would not constitute a church business meeting as most people would understand the term.
Its not good enough to try to sweep this under the carpet. There are far too many legitimate questions to be answered about the stewardship of vast amounts of money. If the internal structures of Whitewell do not allow members to perform this scrutiny adequately, then it becomes a matter of legitimate public interest.
Does anyone know if the church has a formal constitution?
Complain about this comment
Some people just go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
Know what I mean?
Complain about this comment
LOL Domjoly - and very true.
Complain about this comment
dom nice attitude well i suppose thats what we come to expect. well you see dom people have been asking these questions for years and your attitude sums a lot of it all up. dont answer questions theres more important things happening and great things at that and as christians you shouldnt be asking these things. well dom enough is enough. now you consider this. someone say goes and gets a bank loan for the romanian orphanage maybe 10,000 pays 300- 400 per month to it and goes without holidays luxuries for the next 5 years to pay this. now he sees the leadership of ww living well and enjoying many benefits and the horor horors the thing he borrowed the money for is destroyed!!! no explanation no nothing. now what does he do? well according to you he just moves on!!! he has no right to ask questions the leader says thats the only way to deal with it. now cosider this dom if this was done in any public sphere the person who done this would be accountable and if it was done by a politician they would be slated. a business man would be up in court and dom would say move on!!!! weve listened to these type of things for years dom let them go, but you say boring!!! when The Lord said you must be like a child to inhereit the kingdom of God I dont think he meant stay like one. look if your on bloggs be mature enough to answer questions in a good manner even sensible or is that to much to expect i beleive it is the case but who knows even children grow up!!! answer the questions dom and maybe people will stop blogging
Complain about this comment
REF 16
You do go on and on
When Supermac resigns will it be HOBSONS choice ????????????
Complain about this comment
by the way Dom the Lord answered questions and silenced everyone so that it is written that no man durst ask Him any questions!!1 selah
Complain about this comment
methinks that alot of people dont like answering questions
Complain about this comment
But what do you all mean.
Complain about this comment
perhaps the man should be praised for his actions instead of condemned - perhaps by his actions he prevented another kincora
Complain about this comment
If the Rector of my church announced out of the blue that he had just smashed up an overseas orphanage funded by the church to stop it falling into the hands of paedophiles, the churchwardens would be on to the men in white coats.
This whole episode sounds totally bizarre, in keeping with what we are now learning about Whitewell. I wonder if Pastor McConnell raised it in order to distract attention from the questions about his churchs alleged lack of transparency. If so, it has backfired on him. We have to ask yet more questions about the internal governance of Whitewell.
Heres a few off the top of my head:
1. Did Pastor McConnell consult anyone at Whitewell before going out to Romania with the sledgehammers?
2. What was the evidence of the alleged paedophile ring within the Romanian government, apart from whatever the Pastor thought he smelt?
3. The First Minister, his wife and the Finance Minister are all in church membership. Were representations made to any of them?
4. Was the matter ever discussed with former MEP Jim Allister for it to be raised in the European Parliament? (Romania is a member of the EU and is bound by EU criminal justice legislation.)
5. Were any representations made by Whitewell to the Foreign Office or to the Romanian embassy?
Complain about this comment
When will people learn that all your questions will never be answered. You've seen the attitude of people on here who just don't want to listen, and no one will acknowledge anything is going on and they will all go back to the stepford wives situation of crying "Peace Peace!"
Complain about this comment
I suspect Jimmy will "have to walk the plank " and fall on his sword
Complain about this comment
When we lie we lose respect for ourselves and for others. And when we've no respect for anyone we end up yielding to our impulses and indulging in the lowest forms of pleasure. " So" Be an example ...in the way you live " ( 1 Timothy 4:12 )
It is easier to maintain your integrity than to try and recover it.
In everything set - an example by doing what is good...show integrity..and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned,so that those who opose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say ( Titus 2.7.8 ) It may cost you to do the right thing but it will cost you more when you abandon your principles and do the wrong thing.
Complain about this comment
Domjoly - perhaps people would not go on and on if valid questions were answered.
To you Dom and Truthanator - Pastor McConnell stated to Malachi that he held an annual business meeting for members in which he goes "through all these (financial) particulars". Is this true or false?
Complain about this comment
what is the meaning of lilfe anyway?
Complain about this comment
Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever - Westminster Catechism.
Thing is, you'll either glorify His mercy, or you'll glorify His justice, either way, you will glorify God.
Complain about this comment
The facts are very clear about Romania, over the years they have had serious problems with paedophile rings trying to get Children from what has been wrongly labelled Orphanage's but infact are really called residential care centres.
So the media hype of pastor Mc Connell wrecking a Orphanage is not true.
Why, because most of the Children in these places where not Orphan's but a product off a long term ban on Contraception which resulted in a population boom.
Now over the years of Charity history from wherever, there has been many Homes, Hostels, Schools, Churches that have been completely knocked down and destroyed and yet no one even cared about it, so to single Whitewell out as the Monster is clearly wrong and comes from a bias view point.
Lastly, for over the life period off the Whitewell Church, people have always been very happy to give to support its work "BUT" the real truth is, that 99.9% of the people were not really concerned about any public accounts meeting but primarily of the importance off SAVING SOULS not BOWLS.
Complain about this comment
Princessnewsjunkie, some of the regulars of this blog occasionally get together for dinner. Probably again somewhere in September. If you care to join up, then drop me an email. I can't post it as the moderators would cut it out, but if you Google my name and 'Belfast' in the search term you would find the page of my old job at QUB. Please join in if you like.
Complain about this comment
Lets be clear...many 'questions' asked on this blog are not motivated by a genuine desire for answers. It's really about personal gripes and agenda's. For example, Post 26 reflects the result that the contributer would really like to see.
I should also point out that Post 20 is factually incorrect (i.e. the idea that Jesus answered every question). Jesus did NOT answer every question. E.G. The phariee's brought the woman caught in adultery. Should she be stoned? they asked. If Jesus said 'yes', then they'd accuse him. If he said 'No', they'd also accuse him. So Jesus didn't say anything - but wrote on the ground. Finally, Jesus asks a question 'If any of you is without sin, let him be the first to cast a stone'. The Pharisee's weren't interested in the wellbeing of the woman. They were only interested in ruining Jesus. But they failed.
For those with genuine questions, I refer you again to the wise words on post 7.
Complain about this comment
dom ref above thats called answering a question with a question ie what should we do with the woman? answer he that is without sin cast the first stone. dom thats called answering their question!! anywat dom listen i hope all goes well for you and pas mconn and i really mean that i believe that the only person (within ww) that can pull this all together is pas mconn and i hope that he does.
Complain about this comment
Well then Secondmccullough, let me answer with a question:
'if any or you (blooggers) are without sin, let them be the first to cast a stone'
Complain about this comment
I am without sin,(the church uses sin as a form of inflicting and tormrnting people with guilt and also to control the sheep) so i will cast the first stone. ww and pcn want 10% of your income at least and dont allow anyone to disagree with their leadership.
Thanks Peter for the offer i might join you all in sept.
Complain about this comment
Reference post 35
Note that Jesus did not say:
"If any or you are without sin, let them be the first to ask a question."
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
God bless you dom, thanks for answering my question
Complain about this comment
Malachi O'Docherty wrote a very interesting article yesterday in the Belfast Telegraph on WMTB, particulary regarding the Romainian Orphanage incident.
This article has now been listed on Malachi's website, along with the previous interviews with James McConnell and a number of informative comments
http://malachiodoherty.com/
Complain about this comment
A number of insightful comments have been made exploring the reasons for James McConnell's autocracy at WMTB. I have listed them below. I think its important all WMTB members now honestly assess Mr McConnell's integrity and the church leadership structures in light of what is in the bible.
Two of the known prophesies/words from God that James McConnell has said have now been shown to be very questionable indeed. WMTB members need to question what he now says is direction "from the Holy Spirit"
[1] George McKim's sucession
[2] To build the Romainian orphanage
Reformer Says:
July 29, 2009 at 10:22 pm | Reply
Pastor McConnells power and authority in the WW government structure is unquestionaby different to the democratic and accountable models envisaged by the reformers.
If anything his dictatorship is more a kin to what the reformers strongly opposed in the Roman Catholic Church, the office of the Pope. Interestingly it is this church and its leader, that McConnell strongly attacks in his topical Sunday night sermons. Referring to the pope as the antichrist etc
His evangelical papal authority in WW is based on two spiritual pillars. Due to these following two reasons many of the ww membership take everything he says as almost from God Himself.
[1] The number of decisions every week made in WW to become born again Christians. This is taken in form of people raising hands in the appeal after his sermons. The logic promoted is if people are raising their hands [and assumed to all then to be saved] then God must be at work in WW and therefore the decisions made and behaviour of the WW leadership must also be in keeping with Gods will. It is assumed that if the decisions/behaviour of the leadership were not the will of God then people would not be raising their hands in the meetings.
[2] His accounts of angel visitations are not something I know as much of. Regardless of whether you feel that these were true or not. It is concerning that this is part of the reason for his total authority in the church. The Pope himself would not even make this claim.
Evangelical_Exile Says:
July 30, 2009 at 7:55 am | Reply
During my occasional visits to Whitewell 10-15 years ago, I was always struck by Pastor McConnell reporting to his congregation how many people had just been saved. But how could he possibly know something that can only ultimately be known to God? Even the individual can fool himself that because of a particular experience he is now a Christian. The evidence of a Christians conversion comes out of the way that they live their lives, not from a response at the end of a pressurised altar call.
I dont believe that any church leaders ministry can be validated on the basis of how many people profess salvation each week. I also think it is highly dangerous for a church to operate on the basis that its leader is a uniquely blessed Gods Servant and therefore not to be subject to effective scrutiny from members, if that is the case in Whitewell.
I seem to remember Pastor McConnell saying from the pulpit that, as a young boy, he was working in the shipyard when an angel came to him. The angel pointed to some workmen pouring liquid into various pots and asked the young McConnell how much blessing he would like God to pour into his ministry. McConnell said he wanted the largest pot and told his congregation that the present size of Whitewell is evidence of the fulfilment of that angelic promise.
Complain about this comment
In addition to his highly questionable statements which he says came from the Spirit realm. James McConnell showed in Malachi's interview his statements on what has happened in the physical realm are also HIGHLY questionable...
Are there *ANY* ardent ww members/leadership prepared to listen to Malachis interview with Pastor McConnell and BE BRAVE ENOUGH TO give an honest coherent response?
Regarding McConnells apparent claims of an annual ww business meeting in which church finances are discussed and the church accounts which are "open to everyone, if they are a member"
There have been NO such responses on this blog and on the malachiodocherty blog. Regular contributors characteristically defensive of the ww leadership such as REVDOCHOLIDAY, TRUTHANTOR, DOMJOLY, JONTHEEBAP have CONTINUALLY AVOIDED calls to listen to this interview and pathetically dismissed it offhand as gossip while censoring the comments of concerned present and ex-members.
I think this is actually quite RUDE to not bother listening to an interview your Pastor organised!
I would suggest all ww members listen to Pastor McConnells interview with Malachi *BEFORE* they contribute any more comments and answer the following questions
[1] Have they ever attended or been aware of an annual ww business meeting in which church finances inc the ww accounts are discussed as claimed by Pastor McConnell?
[2] If they are asked by the media will this say this claim is true?
[3]If you feel this is not true, how can you trust whatever else he has said about other situations eg Pastor McKim, Romania, ww finances, Pastor Lyons, Mrs Skilling?
[4]If Pastor McConnell did tell Malachi a lie and is unrepentant and refuses to apologise to Malachi. What does this mean to you in terms of the biblical judgement of the church and its leadership?
[5] If you find unrepentant lies unbiblical..is it therefore unbiblical to still support the church and its leadership?
PS I copied this from reformers blog
Complain about this comment
Hi princeEphraim
You have to allow for people to react with a certain amount of fear. These people aren't idiots, they are good people whose foundations have been shook already and have reacted conversely to yourself. They don't want to listen to the interview because they already suspect that what you say is true, but it is the same thing as when you attack anyone's idol, they don't want to hear it because of the implications of it being true.
I daresay your posts will be removed as mine was.
Complain about this comment
Further discussion is also required on WW's ideology. Although I want to stress the MAIN issue is now whether James McConnell told Malachi a lies about the WW business meeting and the availability of ww accounts
Reformer Says:
July 30, 2009 at 1:23 pm | Reply
I would also like to emphasise again and seek clarification some of the potential great and worrying dangers of WWs unusual ideology.
Is British Israelism still taught at a leadership level in WW? This teaching has no grounds whatsoever in biblical, genetic or liguistic findings. It is arguably mild white supremacist racism at best. The more extreme elements of this teaching are against inter-racial marriage and the rights of people to follow different religions in the UK and USA. My concern is with this teaching being promoted in WWs foreign missionsis british israelism taught currently in Kenya or previously in Romania?
The attacks on psychiatrists and their prescriptions is also very concerning! Certainly I remember this being mentioned a number of times when I attended. This certainly is extremely dangerous if WW members with pschiatric illnesses were coming off their medications or refusing to attend appointments because of this teaching. Can anyone clarify how strongly and to what level this is enforced in WW?
Reformer Says:
July 30, 2009 at 5:40 pm | Reply
Just to clarify..as far as I know inter-racial marriage and freedom of worship in the UK&USA are not opposed at a leadership level at WW.
I was merely underlining some extreme views in the extreme followers of British Israelism ideology.
Complain about this comment
Let us all NEVER forget, that Pastor Mc Connell has helped untold thousands off people over the years, and took time to listen to all there problems, while other religious men would not even given them the time of day.
Anyone who has been helped by the pastor and is now turning against him should be ashamed of themselves especially the ones who are writing comments for the enemies of the gospel of GRACE to beat him with.
All of US have made some mistakes "BUT" because of our own importance we can't allow anyone else to make their own mistakes.
Lastly, yes, I would defend any truly Born Again person right from the Baptist to the Pentecostal after they have realised they have made bad choices which has cost them.
ps... not a member of Whitewell or for that matter any church.
Complain about this comment
Secondmccullough in comment 692 on the Tabernacle Turmoil blog you said;
"i think you will find the answer as to why pastor mcconnell does not show accounts is because if you read the very latest book he brought out believe it or not The Angel told him this was to be the way he was to run the finances of the ww church. now i think that all the other churches have got it wrong and they should listen to The Angel and should not reveal the accounts and maybe they will enjoy the blessing of The Lord!!!"
Could you please clarify which book this came from and quote directly what is says?? I think this is very important to the discussion
Complain about this comment
prince it was in the very latest book which was brought out
Complain about this comment
ill dig it up and get you the quote and exact page it is on
Complain about this comment
Thanks SECONDMCCULLOUGH....i am sure you understand why I think this important for the discussion!
EVANGELICAL_EXILE...unfortunately NO ONE is able to answer your questions such as: who makes up the 7 ww trustees...does ww have a constitution...are the ww accounts externally audited....what was the date of the ww business meeting, why did they not approach the proper channels if they were concerned about a paedophile ring etc
Because WW unlike EVERY other evangelical church to my knowledge does not think its IMPORTANT to tell its congregation such information. I wish certain WW members could see how little respect its leadership has for them.
ALL BLOGGERS...the financial information given by the WW leadership in Malachi's interview last weekend just raises more questions than it answers. Aside of the questionable statements regarding the financial transparency of the church. The figures themselves raise concerns...
The WMTB running costs were said to be circa £1.2million and there was 1100 people who were said to tithe in the form of envelopes with donations. McConnell regularly preaches that his congregation should tithe 10% of their income and consider making sacrifical offerings on top of this 10% tithe
So if we estimate a conservative circa 80% of the congregation were tithing 10% of the average £17k p.a. income this would amount to almost£1.5million alone. Which is GREATER by 250k than the running cost figure.
In addition to this are the other sources of income which I would not be able to estimate. But these include;
[1] Tithes of less than 10% ie the further 20% of the 1100 I did not calculate from
[2] Weekly offerings collected at every meeting
[3] 2-3 special gift days per year
[4] The proceeds of the dvd/book/cd sales
[5] Income derived from church concerts
[6] Renting the premises to various Christian music groups
[7] Charging members for weddings at WMTB
[8] Gift Aid
OBVIOUSLY we are look at a NET TURNOVER which is potentially HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF POUNDS over the running costs.
So DOMJOLY/REVDOC..do you want to hazard a guess where all this extra money is going to??
Complain about this comment
Even those of us with deep reservations about Whitewells ministry would not deny:
(a) that Pastor McConnell has reached out to people that others would have ignored, and
(b) that the church has done much good, in the Lords Sovereign Grace.
But the New Testament says that those shepherding the flock will be especially accountable to God for their actions. In their wisdom, the Reformers grasped that church leaders could best discharge this burden if they were also properly accountable to those they led. A church with internal checks and balances, whether formal or informal, and united in love under Christ, is the Biblical model of a fellowship.
There are good reasons to ask whether Whitewell conforms to such a model. In particular, questions arise over:
1. The unique personal authority of Pastor McConnell, as a church leader supposedly anointed by God in a way different to that of the average church leader and his grip over every aspect of the church.
2. The implications of this for Whitewells internal governance, including claims of a culture of secrecy and inappropriate stewarding of financial resources.
Its not good enough to suppress debate on the grounds that the Gospel will be harmed by disclosure. The blogosphere traffic on the subject is, in itself, evidence that Whitewell has failed to sort out its own problems internally, and perhaps that it cannot do so without radical change.
If the church continues to bury its head in the sand, then this will not be the last blog on the subject.
Complain about this comment
My comment in 49 was mainly how I calculated that WMTB'S net turnover would likely be many hundreds of thousands of pounds over the running costs of £1.2 million. And I questioned where this money was going to...
INTERESTING someone referred it to the moderators...
Complain about this comment
The teaching of angels within Pentecostal circles is very common and its no big surpise that pastor Mc Connell believes such, as he is a Pentecostal Minster.
Also, if I were to go around all the Churches represented by the bloggers who write comments on all subjects concerning Whitewell you would easily find Minster's who would not want the outside world to know their financial dealings or were the money is coming from to build a project, such as the lotto, or how much they were on, plus expenses or how many times they are at their church throughout the week to see their parishioners monday to friday from 8.30am-12.30am and the list could go on, but the main point is this, that Pastor Mc Connell earns his money 4 times over and deserves his pay maybe even more.
Lastly, we all know he could have done things to our taste, but then, we are not the ones who run or spent years building up the Whitewell work.
Complain about this comment
Has anyone anything new to say? Some new information perhaps, maybe a reassessment of their position or thinking? Progress? Hope for resolution? Anything?
Complain about this comment
John, what you've just said must be considered in the context of Pastor McC's telling Malachi that he had an annual business meeting for the members where he goes through all the (financial) particulars. Does this happen?
During my time in WW I watched friends pour in money that they could ill afford whilst there were those on the payroll who seemed to weather their giving rather better. Members are entitled to know how their money is being spent and how much pastors and staff are being paid in salary and expenses.
I recall Pastor McC telling a meeting that he'd been visited by an angel in a duffle coat when he worked in the shipyard. Yes, really. I hear the flapping of white coats ...
Please answer the points rather that attempt further censorship - you know it only diminishes you.
Complain about this comment
post 54.
I never once did I ever say that Whitewell does not need to change, of course it does, in respect of nearly all points raised starting with the situation with Pastor Mc KIM then the others one by one.
But you and others are still missing the point, Pastor Mc Connell is a Pentecostal Minister who believes in Angels, so he was not wrong in what he ever said according to his Pentecostal Faith.
Listen, there are millions of poor people giving to various Churches whose pastor's, priest's, bishops and even the pope himself live's a very find lifestyle more than what Pastor Mc Connell does and no one seems to raise an eyebrow, so lets all be honest and give Pastor Mc Connell a fair playing field.
PS... When someone says that an Angel came to them, it can mean various things such as... men or donkeys or Heavenly creatures.
Complain about this comment
John, thanks for this. You had the decency to answer my questions. Except for one. Pastor McC told Malachi O'Doherty that he had an annual business meeting for the members where he goes through all the (financial) particulars. Does this happen?
In terms of his angelic visitations what you are saying appears to be very much in keeping with the phenomenon of the virgin Mary appearing in the main only to Catholics. What these alleged angelic visitations do for PMcC is provide him with an aura of unquestionable authority to those who are gullible enough to believe him. I never felt that I had to believe this to be a Christian. It's about power and man's weakness.
The issue is not about PMcC's lifestyle but about transparency and openness. If people are being asked to give until it hurts they are entitled to know what is coming in and how it is being spent. In the context of WW to ask such questions is to question the Lord. This is simply not good enough.
Complain about this comment
Angels in duffel coats is only the tip of the iceburg. He also believes that Adam and Eve were real people who were created about 6000 years ago and that we did not evolve. He also believes in a virgin birth and in the ressurection of someone called Jesus, talking snakes and talking donkeys.
He is also associated with Elim Pentecostal Churches and has been on the god chanel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYoqoxN_nGI
Complain about this comment
BLACKINGA...i am very much in agreement with what you are saying. No one seems prepared to answer that question.
There are a number of similarities between the WW government structure and the Roman Catholic Papal office. However even the pope would not make the claim that his autocractic authority is based on part due to an alleged angelic visitation.
BLACKINGA..Do you know if the decision to appoint George McKim, to build the Romainian Orphanage and then destroy the Romainian orphanage were claimed by James McConnell to have been advised by the Angel?? He is reported to have said all of these things were inspired by the Holy Spirit but the nature of this inspiration is as of yet unspecified.
Complain about this comment
PrinceE - sorry I don't know but a quick about turn would sort it out anyway.
Princess - how dare you mock Benny Hinn! This is a man who bought himself a private jet so that he could move quickly around the world doing the Lord's work. Just wait until you make such a sacrifice before taking the hand out of him. (Sorry, that was unworthy.)
Complain about this comment
Oh my FSM princessnewsjunkie, that YouTube clip you posted. I thought my assessment of part of humanity (the nuttiest of believers) was at rock bottom already. You may have just made it sink even lower.:(
Complain about this comment
Princess very good exposure of the heritic Benny Hinn.
Why do you think the "hundereds" of people all fall down when Benny "hill" sorry I mean hinn whooooshhhh's them.
Could the sceince community tell us how this happens.
There is also a very good one on Peter Poppoff where he uses an ear piece feed with information from his wife.
He is then caught by a man who was scanning for RF signals so you should it expose him as well.
God is great he even uses Atheists to expose what is false.
Selah
Complain about this comment
Interesting sermon title and message
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iMdN6_5lp4&feature=related
Complain about this comment
As a non-member of Whitewell I can't really answer this question, but having said this, I was present on two occasions over the years when Pastor Mc Connell brought the bank manager and the accounted to a public meeting to discuss the corporate plan ahead concerning finance.
Now from the posts I have read, there always seems to be a pattern coming through, most people don't really care what happens to Whitewell or for that matter any other Church, why? "because" they want to attack Christianity by using any means possible.
Complain about this comment
EVANGELICAL_EXILE...
NO ONE can give an honest answer to your earlier questions of
Does ww have a constitution?
Who are the 7 WW trustees/oversight?
Are the ww accounts externally audited?
The date of the last ww business meeting?
What was the evidence for a paedophile ring?
Why did the church not approach the relevant government channels with their concerns of a paedophile ring etc?
Because the WW leadership unlike EVERY other evangelical church does NOT think its IMPORTANT to tell its membership such information.
I wish some of the ww members could see how this means how little respect their church leadership has for them....
Complain about this comment
REVDOC/DOMJOLY etc I would be interested to hear your opinion also on my comments/questions on WW's teaching on British Israelism and psychiatry [ref comment 44]and the theological reasons for the unaccountable autocratic church government in WW!
Complain about this comment
Certainly there are other pastors in Whitewell who want to be assured that George McKim will not be invited back. They, at least, are sure that God doesnt want McKim to run Whitewell
The above is contained in Malichi O'Dohertys report in BT on Thursday 31 July 2009. Maybe this will answer the question of what happened to Pastor George... So many being told he didn't want to wait and that there was never a definite date given (4 October 2009) but yet we have the above statement. I think we are now beginning to get close to the real reason of Pastor George departure. So many friends who are still in ww keep telling me that the leadership want reconciliation and yet they want assurances that Pastor George will never be invited back. I think there are people who are comfortable and don't want the feathers taken out of their nests.
Complain about this comment
i was a member for over 23years. i may have missed a few meetings over the years but it must have been the two when the bank manager and accountant were present. this never happened in my 23years.
Complain about this comment
What this whole affair has done is highlight the cracks that have always been evident in WMT but, due to the way it was managed, were only noticed by those who had courage. From reading the many messages in the various blogs it shows that those who defend J McC. are behaving like ostriches and leemings rather than the sheep they are supposed to be. What has been said highlights McConnells strong-arm tactics, his lies, his massive ego, his spite, his financial impropriety, his lack of transparency and the dictitorial way he deals with his congregation and subordinate leaders amongst other things. Such behaviour one would expect from a third-world despot, rather than a first-world 'man of God'.
The Bible advises us, "...by their fruits ye shall know them".
Complain about this comment
There are a number of issue which require to be addressed which have already been sited, however, there are a number of others which tend to bother me. The church, when it was based on the Whitewell Road, was affiliated to the Church of Christ if I can remember properly. However, before it opened on the Shore Road it's affiliation changed to the Elim Pentecostal Church. These churches have their own particular doctrine, some of which is similar yet some contradictory. I remember at the time, before they changed affiliation, reading a document that explained the Whitewell Road Church's understanding of the Godhead. Then when they moved I looked up a reference to the Elim's understanding of the Godhead. Now I dont want it to appear that i am nit-picking but they were in conflict. I always wondered how a large group of people could one day believe one thing about the nature of the God they chose to worship, then the next day believe they must have been in error realising the nature of God was totally different and thus changed belief enmass. I could never understand that. Belief can be a funny old thing.
Having attended a few meetings and been an eye witness and spoken to friends who are members, the church claims to be responsible for the conversion of about 10 'lost souls' each week. That would mean that over the last 20 years that 10,000 individuals have been 'saved'. Ok, given that some members have died over the period and maybe others have moved away (although some have came from other churches), where are they all?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
post 67. concerning the meetings, both were "monday nights" both had to do with building projects and securing the finance from the bank infact when I think about it, even in all the gift days in the new and old churches the amounts lifted were always told to the congregation and what about the time a person give pastor Mc Connell a substantial amount of money, did he keep it NO, he told the CHURCH how much it was and gave it into the Church funds, of course no one wants to remember this, that Pastor Mc Connell tithe 100% of that very large sum.
LASTLY, I must know you "totallydismayed" as I first when to Whitewell in 1985.
Complain about this comment
Puretruth
So a grunt makes McConnell demon possessed you people are mad.
This whole blog is becoming a farce.
You go on about McConnell and McKim as if they are super Christians.
Christians arguing over who heard from God was it McKim or ws it McConnell, getting all up tight and getting ready to slay the one who was wrong.
Well what about all you people what is God saying to you?
Why can you not discern who is hearing from God?
And why did you not see this coming?
Has the body become that weak that we have to rely on super leaders to lead us instead of Christ, who has bewitched you?
STOP BLOGGING AND SORT IT OUT.
MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE AND THEY FOLLOW ME.
NEITHER GEORGE, JIM OR ANY OTHER MAN IS THE SOLOUTION TO YOUR PROBLEMS.
CHURCES AS YOU KNOW THEM ARE FINISHED, BUT THE CHURCH IS PEOPLE, NOT BUILDINGS, NOR MOVEMENTS, BUT THE BODY WILL LIVE ON.
ALL DENOMINATIONS HAVE GONE ASTRAY, AND IF YOU CANNOT DISCERN THAT YOU ARE WITTNESSING THE FALLING AWAY SPOKEN OF IN THE WORD THEN I FEAR FOR YOU ALL.
I WON'T POST HEAR AGAIN THIS WAS FOR A SEASON AND FOR ME THE SEASON HAS ENDED.
AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE WE WILL SERVE THE LORD.
SELAH
Complain about this comment
John, what you describe is not an annual business meeting for the members where he "goes through all the (financial) particulars".
I recall no detail of amounts being discussed in any forum with only a few exceptions.
(1) When the small piece of land facing the church came up for sale, Pastor McC stood upand told the congregation that he had made an offer of circa £70K. He was then told by the agent that an offer of £72K (I believe) had been made. He blustered that he wasn't going to be forced to pay more than he needed to and hinted that he felt that it was a phantom offer. He then came back to another meeting a few weeks later and informed us that he was now forced to pay £85K (again I believe) but boasted that the new vendor wasn't going to get the £500 solicitor's fee.
(2) He also told us that the bank was charging a higher interest rate than the church administrator believed. Although the rate was not hidden, this apparently was the bank's fault somehow and in no sense down to incompetence on the part of the administrator (his daughter).
What a man, eh!
I don't attend PCN but I just wonder if George took the helm at WW would he institute new systems. I also wonder if he would tolerate the waste of money (taken from many who can ill afford it) to sponsor comfortable lifestyles for hangers on. Perhaps this is George's problem?
Complain about this comment
Thanks. prob do then. i still dont rem any bank manager etc being at any meetings and only general info ever given out, eg what was lifted etc. other churches hand out reports of pastors wages and running costs. this never happened at ww and we were expected to take it as said what was told to us. we were also told we were supporting missionaries when we were not and churches, also now i believe the orpanage too which was not true.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ref 70
Just for the record....Puretruthseeker says "you will hear, if you listen carefully, the spirit which possesses J McC giving a little grunt of satisfaction.'
This statement beggers belief and demonstrates the depths to which the blogging has sunk.
Complain about this comment
what you say is true enough mynameisbillyboy1. did you also take your stand against wrong doing and leave ww then too?
Complain about this comment
What happened Pastor Lyons ? Another one who vanished overnight with not so much as a word.
Complain about this comment
Far too much in WW is centered around Jim Mcconnell s EGO .Why an orphanage in Romania ? Bob Gass his old friend started working with orphans in Romania in 1991. So WW had to have the biggest and BEST at a cost of MILLIONS. Bob Gass his old friend is still working with orphans and still in Romania .Why was he not asked if he could use it? Was it a fear of Bob Gass succeeding were WW failed.
http://www.bobgass.com/missions-orphanages.php
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
ref post 80
Just for the record, puretruthseeker says, 'The involuntary grunting (of J McC)is but merely the symptom of a man who doesnt have full control over his faculties'
This one line must surely win the prize of the most stupid comment ever posted on the blogisphere.
Next, we'll have people reading things into sneezing, coughing, burping, stomach noises and blinking.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry after reading post 82.
It pretty much sums up how silly, presumptious and scandelous the negative rants have become. Using McConnell's personal health struggles to run him down is, I'm sorry to say, lamentable.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Posts 84, 85 and 86 have just plummeted to new depths. Anyone with a molecule of sense will discern how venomous these personal attacks on JMcC are. How very sad.
On reflection, I am deeply sorry for giving people like this further opportunity to spout their onobjective nonsense. As such, I will make no further contribution to this blog.
Complain about this comment
hooray! now that dom is ceasing to contribute maybe we can have some intellectual posts from people with perspective rather than someone who refuses to take off the rose tinted spectacles :)
Complain about this comment
Intellectual?????????? wwisrotten, you are a deluded ignoramus.
Complain about this comment
happychristian follower i wouldnt expect any less from a WWer-call other people names and sling mud to detract from the real issues at question-WW has taught you well!!!
Complain about this comment
As it happens, I am not a member of WW.
Complain about this comment
its funny how pretty much everyone on these blogs that is in support of the WW regime "isnt a member of WW"....
Complain about this comment
Just to further clarify, I had never had any connection with WW.
Complain about this comment
well in that case what would you know about anything being discussed?!
Complain about this comment
What has been 'discussed' over the past number of posts are PERSONAL remarks about JMcC - even suggesting there is something sinister about his coughing when he preaches (ref post 80, 82, 84, 85, 86)!!! Its just pathetic.
Complain about this comment
wwisrotten
I have never heard of Bill Wilson but I have a lot of time for those who are humble enough to admit their weaknesses and faults as it denote honesty and a desire to improve. As imperfect beings who have been commanded to be become more perfect like our Father in Heaven (Matt. 5:48) we can never do so if we first dont admit to our faults. Sadly, I must say that I have yet to find Christian church leaders who do. Maybe Im looking in the wrong places. Most of the people I know and many of them very decent folk have been put off religion because of the hypocrisy which tends to surround it. I mtend to agree. Sometimes, I wonder if Christianity has been so badly managed that the whole truth has ceased to reside within it bounds. There are too many questions it fails to answer for me and although I have always believed in a benovelent God as creator and Jesus as a Redeemer I have come to the conclusion that there must be more to salvation than asking Jesus to come into my heart and attending a church service a few times a week to hear the same message that I must be saved. I would rather put my faith in John 14:26 and 2John 2:27 and go it alone.
Im not even into blogging its just that a friend informed me of the controversy and as i had a particularly bad experience with McConnell years ago, I was just having a look and felt compelled to speak.
All this will do will further reinforce what many good people outside the Christian way of life and myself already felt. However, maybe its not such a bad thing. Who knows?
Complain about this comment
Could I please strongly appeal to those concerned about the practices/structure/finances/beliefs of WW not devalue the discussion by remarking on James McConnell's or anyone else's motor ticks, background or physical appearance. This has NO RELEVANCE whatsoever!
This merely serves to undermmine the genuine and legitimate concerns held by many in the Northern Ireland evangelical community of this church
DOMJOLY as outlined above i agree with your post 87.
HOWEVER, you CANNOT get away from the genuine real questions about WW which is at the heart of this discussion.
So I refer you to the questions in posts 42 and 44.
PLEASE HAVE THE COURAGE AND DECENCY TO ANSWER
Complain about this comment
A posting on malachiodocherty's blog
D.A. Says:
August 2, 2009 at 9:19 pm | Reply
The men then left Romania by crossing a land border to evade any danger that the police would detain them at the airport and ask them why they had acted so strangely.
*If* the organisation which ran the childrens home was legally registered as a Romanian foundation (which it should have been), they were actually acting illegally by destroying the building. The Romanian law on foundations states that if the foundation has to cease operation, all remaining assets must be handed to the courts, which will decide how to dispense with them.
Of course, this all hinges on whether or not the organisation was properly registered in Romania (which it should have been, given that it was working with children).
John McCreadys explanation of what happened is perfectly sound. McConnells sounds like hes away with the fairies (allegedly).
SO...MY QUESTION IS WILL JAMES MCCONNELL NOW BE PROSECUTED BY THE ROMAINIAN GOVERNMENT FOR
[1] DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER?
[2] ILLEGAL DESTRUCTION OF A REGISTERED ORPHANAGE?
Complain about this comment
princeEphraim.
The grunt forms only part of my post and if you are unhappy with it you can ignore me.
Nevertheless, I think what has happened highlights the flaws inherent in organised Christianity and while the rest of the 'community' will never get a full understanding of all this no matter how much you bleat, I feel that its as good a time as any to flag up some of the flaws.
Oh, and bye the way, I never mentioned anything about Mcconnell's "motor ticks, background or personal appearance". You did.
Im glad this is a 'free' country.
Complain about this comment
As someone who is not party to any side in this situation, I'm convinced that this blog is being used by some (not all) as way of just getting at JMcC because of their own selfish reasons - hence the personal attacks on him. I really think this is out of order. But for those with genuine questions, surely the best way to get answers is to make a telephone call to the church and ask to meet with someone over coffee?
Complain about this comment
HappyChristfollower
"for those with genuine questions, surely the best way to get answers is to make a telephone call to the church and ask to meet with someone over coffee?"
You are quite correct. On another thread William asked contributors to "to avoid personalising insults when debating issues." and went on to say, "It is every commenter's right to remain anonymous if that is their wish.", however as the comments about this WW situation descend further and further from what is courteous, never mind what is gracious, I can't help but think that a lot less would be said if each had to sign on with their own name.
This has gone beyond the "heat of debate".
Complain about this comment
Hello petermorrow,
"On another thread William asked contributors to "to avoid personalising insults when debating issues." and went on to say, "It is every commenter's right to remain anonymous if that is their wish.", however as the comments about this WW situation descend further and further from what is courteous, never mind what is gracious, I can't help but think that a lot less would be said if each had to sign on with their own name."
Well RAmen to that. The number of posts from me, Dylan_Dog and others that have been pulled by that orthodox, homophobic pastor who fears being identified to his congregation shows how right you are in saying that.
Complain about this comment
PK
I have had similar thoughts this weekend. This site is in danger of descending into farce.
Complain about this comment
It's time for another one of my blogospheric sermons. A number of comments have been removed from this thread because they have focused on very personal issues that may be considered deeply hurtful to some people involved in this discussion. We try to permit as much freedom for debate and discussion on all our posts, but that freedom should not be abused to engage in this kind of personal attack. Matters of serious public concern are raised by this story, and I hope commenters will restrict their comments to a responsible discussion of those issues, rather than allowing the thread to descend into ad hominem attacks. I therefore appeal to everyone on this thread, and on the related threads, to be careful in their use of language. Let's treat others the way we would have them treat us -- because what goes around comes around, eventually. And let these be the characteristics of our conversation: listening with openness, speaking with respect, engaging with grace. Agreed?
Complain about this comment
Having been a part of ww in the past i can tell you that the whole pentecostal movement is a farce, the comments do not surprise me at all.
The role of a pastor is to take money of the sheep, exploit the fear of death and life in the sheep and train them to be submissive to their empire building. The pcn website has a picture of the pastor on its front page they are all in competition with each other. If you are a member of the church they are meant to be nice to each other but this is impossible that is why they had their spilt.
The pastors have no confidence in what they believe or else they would go public and tell about their visions and how god talks to them. Why are they so afraid of people questioning their faith? Because faith is a farce.
Most of the pastors are uneducated people who want to keep the sheep ignorant. If you dont believe me ask the Pastors about Charles Darwin and watch their reaction.
Complain about this comment
I REALLY THINK THE TIME HAS COME FOR THIS BLOGS PLUG TO BE PULLED AS IT HAS NOW BECOME A SICK SITE FOR SAD INDIVIDUALS TO SLAG OF MEN OF GOD IN A VERY HURTFUL AND PERSONNAL WAY. THEY HAVE VERED AWAY FROM THE WHOLE POINT OF IT TO JUST TURN IT INTO A SLAGGING MATCH WHERE THEY ARE TRYING TO DIG UP A PILE OF DIRT. THOSE WHO ARE NAME CALLING AND MUCK SPREADING REALLY SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Having had my posts removed I want to retract my statement on post 99 that im thankful we live in a free country. It appears we dont.
Its ok for the regulars contributors who probably view this blog as their forum to cast their veiled aspersions in their genteel, yet vindictive, way but let an outsider speak frankly and it good-night and good-bye.
I wanted to open a bigger can of worms that others self righteous contributers, who want to hightlight J McC mistakes, may be uncomfortable with. I wanted to widen the debate to highlight the real reason for such behaviour as WMT are being accussed off, rather focussing on a symptom.
Wasnt it the controversary with regards Jacqui Smiths expenses for adult movies that widened the debate to a greater issue of the criminal claims being made by other MPs?
Wasnt it the Credit Crunch which highlighted how little the bankers really know about the economy and that revealed their criminal bonuses?
Those with a vested interest in evangelical christianity dont want to debate the more serious issues that are responsible for situations like WMT are in at this point in time. For as sure as hell exists, this will all be papered over and forgot about soon, much in the same way the bankers will keep their jobs and their big bonuses as will the politicians.
My arguement is that somehow or other The Protestant faiths have wandered afar and have somehow become lost.
To explain The Church that Jesus established was different to the church of the Constantine period. The church of the Constantine period was different to that of the Protestant churches that sprang up after Martin Luther. They in turn where different to the Methodism of Wesley. The doctrines, structure and practices of Wesley are different in so many ways to that of Evangelicals of today. Even the common use of the term born again really only emerged in the 1960s in America before being widely used here.
I believe in evolution. Not so much the evolution of man but the evolution of the church. Man has changed everything about christianity. Without criticising any individual, Im criticising it all and what is happening at WMT is just a symptom of the stupidity of man. In order to do that we need to look at the motives of people like J McC in the same way that investigative journalists from CNC showed up Benny Hinn for what he is. But then again, dont all ministers of religion have a vested interest in maintaining their position. Who else would feed their kids?
Complain about this comment
Totallydismayed
I left WW when Pastor McC employed Pascal O'Hare to deal with the Billy Elliot issue. I didn't feel he should have been the church lawyer.
As far as 78 expositor is concerned Pastor Lyons has not disappeared I meet him in Torrevieja about a year ago and he still looks after 4 churches there.
Pastor Blake was wrong when he said Lyons would only last a year.... But then that was said when he was standing beside McC I wonder what he would say now?
Ps Pastor lyons said he didnt sign any agreement when Pastor McC and witnesses met with him.
Complain about this comment
princessnewsjunkie
I agree with you.
Unfortunately, it looks like that dinner invitation may be retracted now. Should it still be extended bring a bodyguard with you - you might need it.
When I have voiced my views to evangelical christians in the past, iv always got the same response. The gates of hell have opened and seemingly nice gentle folk have gone all 'paramilitary'.
Complain about this comment
puretruthseeker you have lost the plot in post 110.
Every believer knows someone who used to believe but no longer do. It is no big deal.
Complain about this comment
princessnewsjunkie
Im only telling you of my experience.
Bye the way, I still believe.
Complain about this comment
Sorry again princessnewsjunkie
I must apologise for my misunderstanding. As I only gave a cursory reading to the preceeding posts, I thought that the majority of the contributors where Christian of different sorts. I didnt realise that some were atheists. I have read more carefully and discovered my mistake with regards from whence the dinner invite came from. I find atheists much less defensive about their position. However, Like many atheists I have always been sceptical about christianity but, for me, that doesnt diminish my belief in their being a greater intelligence that is responsible for us all being here. It just make me realise that 'man' has messed things up in some way and that in some other way, yet to be revealed, all things will be restored. This restoration will, again in some way, prove to be just and merciful. You see there is something about me apart from my body which is real and I cant but help think that when I die my meat and bones will rot but the intelligence within me which is not meat and bone will continue to live on for some other purpose.
Anyway, sorry for sounding like i lost the plot re post 110. However, I hope you afford me the right to believe what i have just written as I will afford you the right to believe what you want.
Complain about this comment
Hello puretruthseeker,
"As I only gave a cursory reading to the preceeding posts, I thought that the majority of the contributors where Christian of different sorts. I didnt realise that some were atheists. I have read more carefully and discovered my mistake with regards from whence the dinner invite came from."
Actually, ever since some of the regulars on this blog have been getting together, the dinners have been open to believers of any flavour and none. Admittedly, of the christian camp only peterJhenderson has become an attendant, but it's not because there are any exclusions in place regarding peoples beliefs. If any of the WWers care to join up they can. Be prepared to have your beliefs questioned over a tasty meal and drink, but if you can stand that, google my name along with the word 'Belfast', you will find the page of my old job at QUB with email on it. Who knows, see some of you in September.
"However, I hope you afford me the right to believe what i have just written as I will afford you the right to believe what you want."
I don't know of anyone here who would deny you that right. But I presume you accept that we atheists have the right to question your beliefs and to call people out over their reasoning if we find it faulty. And if it's really bad, even say that we think it is dumb.
Complain about this comment
Peter_Klaver
That sound reasonable. All our beliefs should be able to stand the test of reasoning. I for one will admit I havent a complete understanding of why we are here on this planet and should I discover truth, from whatever source, I will embrace it gladly.
Again, I only joined the debate due to a bad personal experience with WMT and im not sure that I want to continue being part of a debate. Time and other committments will tell.
Complain about this comment
I had a few thoughts about angels which I thought I would mention for discussion.
Much of Pastor McConnells authority comes from his claims of repeated angelic visitation. I dont think the Bible expressly rules this out in our present day and so I cannot say that it could not have happened. All I would note is that:
(a) other church leaders who have made these claims tends to be Pentecostal (angels dont seem to appear to evangelical Anglicans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Brethren, etc.),
(b) many of these leaders have charismatic (in the non-pentecostal sense)personalities and authoritarian leadership styles, and
(c) many also have poor track records in holding to sound doctrine.
My understanding of angels is that, in Biblical times, they stepped into our world at key moments as Gods representatives. We have their exploits recorded for us in the Bible as a testimony to Gods intervention in our world. But unlike the ancients, we are fortunate to have the finished Word of God.
1. If angels appeared then to bring glory and adoration to God, why do they need to continue to appear now that Gods glory is complete in his Son?
2. How can God be made more glorious than the way in which He has revealed Himself in His completed Word?
Complain about this comment
Just want to point out my post 49 on WW estimated financial net income has been restored.
My post on the definition given by wikipedia on what cults are has been *disappointingly* removed
Complain about this comment
My post 107 on the definition given by wikipedia on what cults are has been *disappointingly* removed.
Search wikipedia for what these definitions are if you are interested!
Complain about this comment
Puretruthseeker,
"That sound reasonable. All our beliefs should be able to stand the test of reasoning."
With views like that you should, like peterJhenderson and a some other christian regulars here, get along quite well with the atheists here.:)
Complain about this comment
post 108,
You say, that the term Born Again really came about just within the 1960s, maybe from some American Evangelist, WELL as spongebob squarepants would say...BARNACLES.
The Lord JESUS Christ used this wonderful term, Born Again or Born from Above, john 3:3 & 3:7 and even Saint Peter used it as well 1 peter 1:23,
so to say it came about in the 60s is wrong infact the term "Trinity" is not even in the Bible, but it is used by Christians to describe God,
post 116,
When the Pope broke his wrist, he said that his "Guardian Angel" did not save him from doing it, so even the head of the Roman Catholic Church has a belief in Angels for today NOT just Pentecostals.
Complain about this comment
johntheebap
What im saying is that people didnt call themselves 'born again' the way they have done more recently. It's just an indication of how things change or evolve and people, having short memories, think things have always been the way they are now, when in fact they havnt.
When past christians referred to themselves, the didnt say they were 'Born Again' - its use has only been employed generally over the last 50 years. Research it.
I never mentioned the term "Trinity"
Here, its funny how angels only appear to Evangelicals and Jesus's mother only to Catholics.
By the way, Catholics have always believed in guardian angels but im unsure that they have cited manifestations.
Complain about this comment
Post. 116 evangelical_exile I appreciate your insight and would similarly follow your thoughts. James McConnell's accounts of subjective angelic experiences are certainly *possible* to those of us with a christian worldview. In terms of the discussion, these experiences cannot be disproven!
I similarly recognise your observations listed on the similarities between church leaders who make similar claims of angelic visitations. These experiences and the fruit of the messages/directions of such spiritual visitations/revelations should *ALWAYS* be tested against what we read in the bible.
I share your concern when these claimed experiences are used to assert and control the authority in the church, as we can see in the unaccountable autocratic office of James McConnell in the WW church government. I would be particularly concerned if SECONDMCCULLOUGH'S assertion is accurate..that in a recent WW publication it is claimed that how WW's finances and church government are managed are due to the alledged directions of an angelic being. Admittedly he has not yet made this quotation as I had requested.
I would like to request more of your insight, experience and the implications of WW's teaching on British Israelism and psychiatry please...
Complain about this comment
post 121,
Down through the years even before the KJV 1611 Bible, many, many Christian's used the term "Born Again" right across the World and even in our own Country right up to W,P,Nicolson to Jimmy Swaggart in the USA, ALWAYS was the cry...YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN.
post 120,
Just for the record about B.I teaching... most people in Whitewell certainly don't believe it and if some do, so what, its up to them, like other Evangelical Churches, there are those amongst them who also believe it as well.
Again, it has to be said, Whitewell is a Pentecostal Church, of course it believe's in latter day visitations and so do many other Churches as well.
Lastly, if Pastor Mc Connell said anything about Psychiatry or taking off tablets its in the context of misuse, when you think about it, if Pastor Mc Connell was against any form of medical help or advice, why is he always praying for Doctors and always up at Hospitals visiting.
Complain about this comment
Just a wee scriptural note here on angels and a garaunteed way of knowing for sure if a claim of angelic visitation is authentic or not.
In the Bible (OT and NT) every single (or at least 99% of) apparations begin with a greeting from the Angelic visitor to the visitee.
Then an invitation to not be afraid, from the Angel. Then a statement of unworthiness by the shocked visitee. Then a statement of reassurance from the Angel.
There are also other common factors which, at this moment in time, I cannot remember from my 1st year scripture class. (Oh yes, an instruction is then given by the angel, normally an instruction which defies logic.)
If the instruction is followed, everything miraculously goes fine and dandy. If the instruction is not followed, the least that happens is blindness, as in J the B's dad. Or, things totally fall apart at the seams.
I cannot speak for Whitewell, but I can comment on my erstwhile leader, the Pope. There was no Angel, Gaurdian or otherwise. "Catholics" do not believe in Angels. Some may, some dont, most probably dont give it a second thought.
Yes many Catholics have claimed to have seen Angels. I visited some of them in psychiatric units.
Others have claimed The Beatific Vision, The Sacred Heart of Jesus, normally warning of bad things to come if humankind doesnt see the error of its ways.
Plenty of Marian visions, normally in countries where war broke out shortly afterwards. France, Ireland, Yugoslavia, to name but three.
There are also claims of saintly people, bi-locating. While he was alive, Padre Pio was often seen at exactly the same time by two different people who were miles apart. And he wasnt the only one, or only two, to be more precise.
For any of you on here who might harbour deepseated ill will towards Catholics, maybe this could be an opportunity for a metanoia, a change of heart/direction. Think of how difficult we've got it, look at all the minefields we have to work our way through, all these invitations to ditch our intelligence and common sense, and cower behind the safety barrier of superstition.
You lot have it easy.Lol. Angels or no Angels? Make a decision, then conclude that it is utterly facile anyway and move on.
(Maybe the Angel actually said, "Pastor, knock down the walls of the Orange Lodge" and the Pastor thought he said, "Orphanage.") Just a suggestion.
Complain about this comment
JOHNTHEEBAP..your information on British Israelism is inaccurate. It certainly is taught at a leadership level at WW. It is often taught during the topical sunday night sermons. In fact several years ago a prominent evangelical teacher challenged the WW leadership to debate this teaching. As to the adherence of the the membership to this belief, I cannot be sure, although due to the lack of discussion allowed in WW and the strong following of its charismatic leader I would think its likely this teaching would have a considerable following in ww.
WW's teaching/if any on psychiatry I would like clarified. My earlier post 44..I copied from reformer's blog. I have been present when dubious statements have been made regarding this. I do not know whether these were "off the cuff" statements or part of a larger teaching topic. Off the cuff or not I still find it very worrying!
Complain about this comment
post 125,
Believe me, if anyone on this blog knows about B.I teaching, it is me, NOT that I believe in it.
Yes, down through the years it was pointed at and this is why jacob prasch challenged Pastor Mc, by the way jacob believe's that Angels had sex with human's, anyway, not all the top men in whitewell believe in B.I.
Also,there was never ever such a teaching on mental health.
Complain about this comment
Johntheebap thanks for your comments...
Pastor McConnell teaches BI..so therefore under WW's autocratic church government it is "official" teaching.
However as far as I understand you are *accurate* in so far that you claim "not all the top me in whitewell believe in B.I.". By which I assume you mean pastoral staff.
You *inaccurate* however to say that it does not have a significant following in WW. Such is the loyalty to McConnell's teaching.
Jacob Prasch's beliefs have no relevance whatsoever to this discussion. I was merely demonstrating it was known by other christians that B.I. was taught at a leadership level at WW.
I would be very concerned if BI is taught in the Kenya mission project or previously in Romania!! Could someone allay my fears please??
I have been present on sunday night services in WW where James McConnell appeared to criticise psychiatrists' methods of taking a history, in so far as delving into "the dirt" ie traumatic issues in a patients past. I have also been present when he has criticised the need for christians to be on anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medication ie "valium".
As I said this was "off the cuff" comments during a sermon on another a topic. To be fair I do not know whether this constitutes a pattern of "teaching". I have not heard a sermon completely on psychiatry.
I would like to hear from recent or present WW members to clarify this issue [as you say you are not]. Because whether they have been "off the cuff" statements or a pattern of teaching, I think it is a serious matter of public interest.
I would also appreciate your thoughts/response on the ideology/theology behind McConnell's autocratic leadership. I refer you to posts 15, 41, 64,116.
Complain about this comment
Let's not lose sight of the issue.
Pastor McConnell stated to Malachi O'Doherty that he held an annual business meeting for members in which he goes "through all these (financial) particulars". Is this true or false?
Complain about this comment
William Matters of serious public concern are raised by this story
Indeed!
This story is not only about Whitewell, it is about very many churches across NI where leaders are abusing their role in the local church, and getting away with it. Good Christian people are lorded over by leaders who, knowingly or not, are primarily driven by pride and power. Good Christian people are silenced into submission by the improper use of biblical argument and shameful political pressure, which corrupts the Good News which freedom in Christ gives to all his children.
Yes, let us consider Whitewell, but what about the whitewash which may be being very liberally applied by My Own Church leaders! What am I doing about that? Or, are we just as blind or as afraid as many of the good folk in Whitewell!
1 Peter 5:3 Dont lord it over the people assigned to your care, but lead them by your own good example.
Acts 17:11 'Now the Bereans.....examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.'
Complain about this comment
For those nerds like me who are interested in numbers, the three WW threads have now totaled more than 1500 posts. The first two threads are by far the longest since I've been on this blog from the end of 2006 (and I suspect the longest ever. John W, do you remember any longer ones?).
Unfortunately, the influx of WWers has also resulted in a record number of posts being referred to the moderators. On the first thread alone I counted exactly 100 posts pulled or referred, more than one out of every seven posts. I read many before they were pulled, many were not rude/inflammatory/etc at all. It was often a matter of WW/PCNers finding it more convenient to make someone else's points disappear altogether. Which has confirmed several things we already knew.
The main criterion for removing a post is that post being referred, not its content. The moderators will remove most posts that are referred to them.
The complaint option is much abused.
Prominent among the culprits of this abuse are christians who think they have the right not to have their beliefs, practices and clergymen questioned and critcized. That includes both a number of the new WW posters as well as a few veteran posters on this blog.
Complain about this comment
I agree Blackinga..that question remains the primary issue. *Significantly* it remains unanswered by DOMJOLY, REVDOCHOLIDAY, TRUTHANATOR etc. Their silence speaks volumes!
However the secondary issues I and others also have discussed need addressed. They are of great concern.
A colleague has pointed out a new Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle Belfast facebook group has been formed. It contains the usual misguided comments of "best church ever" etc. It is apparently open to all to join and create discussion.
There is a new WW fundraising forum containing amongst others some kind of fundraising effort for a trailer. Significantly this contains the registered charity numbers of WW.
http://www.justgiving.com/whitewell/
Complain about this comment
Blackinga [or anyone else] do you know if there has been any further statements by the ww leadership to reiterate, clarify or apologise for James McConnell's statement to Malachi O'Doherty that he held an annual business meeting for members in which he goes "through all these (financial) particulars"?
Complain about this comment
PK
Thanks for taking the time to study the stats and draw the conclusions you did from them.
Probably amongst the most enlightened post on this, and the other two threads, and not an Angel in sight.
Complain about this comment
PrinceE - I know of no further comment from WW on this.
I think that there may be a delusion amongst the membership that he never actually said it. But perhaps I'm misjudging and someone from WW will forget about the weasel words and comment directly on what JMcC said. It's still available on Malachi's blog.
Question - is there an annual business meeting as described by James McConnell?
Complain about this comment
My apostrophes seem to go missing when I post.
princeEphraim
Belatedly I will try to answer your questions.
Re British Israelism, when I was younger I was introduced to it through a then member of my Orange lodge and attended some meetings. Some people I met through it were pretty conventional Christians, one being Nelson McCausland. Others had what I now recognise as unpleasantly racist attitudes and a whole set of dodgy beliefs and associations. But I have to admit to not thinking about it for some years and I dont think I can comment on something I havent really examined for myself. Also, I havent heard Pastor McConnells views on psychiatry etc. for myself and cant comment on them either.
As a postscript to my comments on angels, would signs and wonders really deepen our appreciation of Christ? The Israelites still fell away despite seeing so many of them. Much Christian joy, in my limited experience, comes only after disciplined but routine and unexciting toil: finding quiet time in a busy day, going along to a midweek meeting when you dont really want to, etc.
Does anyone know what institution awarded Pastor McConnell his doctorate? Theres nothing on the Whitewell website.
Complain about this comment
Thanks e_exile. rg ww's teaching on psychiatry, to clarify to the blog I would hope and tend to believe it was just a not well thought out "off the cuff" remark rather than a sustained reasoning or pattern of teaching.
I would seek clarification on this point by recent/current ww members to hopefuly confirm my hopes.
RG McConnell's doctorate I do not know the name of it but I believe it was an American seminary.
Complain about this comment
E-E - there's a picture of "James McConnell receiving an honorary doctorate form the California Graduate School of Theology, July 1986" in "The Seer's House" by John McCreedy.
Complain about this comment
Did a google search there. It an *unaccredited* American college currnetly seeking accreditation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Graduate_School_of_Theology
Complain about this comment
Tried to log on to the Whitewell Facebook group but this is the message I got
Group Unavailable
We're sorry, this Group isn't available right now
Complain about this comment
Thanks for the doctorate replies. I have a number of old Whitewell audio tapes (c. 1994-5) and on the sleeves the Pastor is styled as "Rev. Dr. James McConnell". Does Pastor McConnell refer to himself as a "doctor" anywhere else ?
Complain about this comment
Christian Hippy, the new WW facebook group is still there. It now has 68 members and is currently open to anyone to join and comment.
E_E I have certainly seen it used a number of times on official WW documents and I think [not 100%] sure its used on WW'S tv programmes on the UCB channel.
Complain about this comment
Thanks for that, princeEphraim.
I seem to remember the magician Paul Daniels getting into hot legal water when he cast aspersions over Ian Paisley's qualifications. So all I would say is that any church leader who styles himself as a "Doctor" on the basis of an honorary doctorate, as opposed to a genuine academic higher qualification, does himself no favours - to put it mildly.
Perhaps William or Malachi would like to question Pastor McConnell about this when they next get the opportunity?
Complain about this comment
A friend recently involved in WW has pointed out that the psychiatry related comments by James McConnell were more of a more humerous nature and it is not an official ww teaching.
If this is the case, I am very relieved and indeed would apologise if I indeed have misinterpreted such statements from his sermons.
Complain about this comment
Whitewell has now some competition of Facebook! from The Peoples Church Newtownabbey.
Complain about this comment
There we go now! even a senior DUP man is a B.I teacher and what makes it worse Is...that he isn't a Pentecostal, he's an "independent Methodist".
The point Is, that in so-called Bible prophecy B.I Is found mixed up within schools of thought concerning the last days and most people wouldn't even smell it, even on religious tv B.I Is found right across the channels BUT yet it only seems to concern Pastor Mc C, I really think that people on this blog are looking to get a catalogue of "MISTERMEANERS" on the Pastor.
Sadly even a joke was made about the orphanage from "romesjellybean" so the question has always been on my mind? what are the motives behind some off the comments aimed at, not just Pastor Mc C but at the Whitewell Church AND Evangelical Believer's.
Lastly, it does not matter what Church your in, there are one man Ministries everywhere, and they also make some bad mistake's.
Complain about this comment
Johnthebap
"Sadly even a joke was made about the orphanage from "romesjellybean" so the question has always been on my mind? what are the motives behind some off the comments aimed at, not just Pastor Mc C but at the Whitewell Church AND Evangelical Believer's."
I'll hazard a guess at RJB's motive, there's a distinct possibility it could have been humour, plain and simple, you know, play on words. It made me laugh and I wasn't thinking of WW at all when I read it.
As for other comments aimed at P McC, WW or Evangelical believers, given the paucity of comments from those outside the WW/Evangelical camp, (and I'm on record as saying that many of the comments are out of line) I fear the greater problem is with how you guys treat one another.
Can't blame RJB on this one.
Complain about this comment
If jIMMY WILL LET US KNOW WHERE YOU GET THESE TITLES I WILL BUY HALF A DOZEN ASSORTED - I RATHER fancy a few titles
There are more doctors in the churches than in the Royal Victoria Hospital / City Hospital / Mater Hospital / Dundonald Hospital / Whiteabbey Hosp /
Complain about this comment
J the B
if all you took out of post #124 was a joke about orphanages, you didnt really read it.
Complain about this comment
Peter M
Thanks for your words above. I dont want to put you in the firing line, but I have a couple of questions and you very kindly answered me a while back when I asked.
Firstly, this whole 'Angels' thing. If a priest stood up in a pulpit over here and said that Angels had appeared to him or had been giving him messages, his mental health would be questioned. Yes, many would ridicule him but, hopefully, most would sincerely seek help for him. Can you shed any light for me on why such claims would actually be taken seriously over there?
Secondly, Peter Klaver gave some interesting stats earlier about this thread and the others on this subject. I'd add another one, but cant be bothered counting at the moment - The amount of scripture quotes provided! Quote, then counter quote, then counter, counter quote. An outsider looking in would probably, and quite rightly, conclude, that you can make the Bible say what ever you want it to say.
Months ago, you provided a kind of overview of Evangelical Christianity in NI which I found really helpful. But I have to say, in that overview, I didnt quite get the sense of some of the stuff I'm reading above. Frankly, I find some of it really disturbing. If I was to choose a particular church to join from everything I've read on these threads, it would be the Quakers.
Without starting World War III, can you enlighten me?
Complain about this comment
post 148,
"off course" I read your other post and really thought it was very good and very attractive and really made the most sense from a Biblical point of view, until you made the last remark! concerning the orphanage and believe me, I just think that the orphans + unwanted Children who have been let down by us who turned a blind eye to that silly decision made by Pastor Mc Connell to destroy it and re-locate them all from a secure home life.
Lastly, I tried to keep the debate to a point "that" people didn't get carried away with common everyday things that happens to most Church's and lose the reason why we are here, yes maybe I was wrong to defended my Evangelical belief's a wee bit and responded to those who are out to attack my understanding off the Bible and even this could have taken away from the real debate about the bad decisions made by Pastor Mc Connell concerning everything, right from Pastor Mc Kim up to the latest disaster.
If anyone wants my opinion on the matter of why Pastor Mc Connell does what he does IS, he is surrounded by YES men and by those who have an interest in Power, Money, they think they have a Star like Lifestyle, and that people need them, Believe me, it is the ordinary people off the Church who give them the ability to function as something and time will tell how long this sort off behaviour shall last.
Complain about this comment
J the B
As I said, I have no real in depth knowledge of Pastor McConnell and the virtues and vices of WW. I'm commenting from what has been written on this site. (And a few others.)
Aware that I am commenting from 'the other side', (that's not the hereafter, by the way),I was attempting to be self depricating and to show how the ordinary person in the pew faces similar crises of faith, conscience and intellect in my own Church.
The target for my 'humour' was in no way orphans, not even the Orange Lodge (however I would have certain 'issues' there.)
My derision is aimed at Pastors communicating with Angels, then preaching on it. Those who accept such nonsense without question. Those who wont put the kettle on in the morning without finding a scripture quote to justify it. And the utter selfrighteousness of people who think they are chosen by God and therefore have his permission to do whatever they damnwell like.
When I looked up various websites and found in the small print that as well as all the tremendous work people do in terms of orphanages, they also fund Bibles to be sent to these children, I am enraged.
How dare they!
Havent these kids got enough problems without filling their heads with the nonsense we have seen displayed on this site in the last few weeks? Personally, I wouldnt let anyone who claims to be speaking with Angels within miles of impressionable and vulnerable youngsters and I cant understand otherwise responsible people who would. It is proselytising of the worst form.
The reason I listed Catholic practices in post #124 was to try and show that WW in particular, and Evangelicalism in general, do not have a monopoly on 'whacky' and 'zany' practices and beliefs.
Complain about this comment
RJB
I was going to give you a 'my christian background' preamble but this will all be too long. Bear one thing in mind though, in my view, there is no great Protestant movement, either religiously or politically, and there is no great evangelical movement. We have rather a loosely stitched patchwork of people and organizations and denominations and movements and so on, and it seems we are often identified by what we are not, rather than what we are. We are individualistic to the core, and each of us is just a little closer to God than the other! (And we're definitely closer to God than Roman Catholics!!) ;-)
Anyway here goes WW3 (It's probably inevitable!)
For all it's emphasis on the bible, there seems to be in Protestant circles a tendency to supplement one's decision making process with 'what the Lord says'. When I was part of a Charismatic fellowship this was directly to charismatic gifts (prophecy and the like) and this was a church culture which was quick to tell you, me, or anyone else who would listen just what God's mind on a subject was. Occasionally (but not often) this would have included angel stories, usually in terms of, I gave this guy a lift, and he might have been an angle you know. In my experience this is entirely an individual process any sense of Christian community is way down the line. As far as church leaders go, yes, again, in my experience, there was a certain amount of, 'this is what God has said this week', so this is what the church is doing. And then there were the international celebrities, who ahem, really knew God.
Another version of this takes place in non charismatic Protestant churches (and this is the bit likely to get me in trouble). Churches who state that the bible is their only rule of faith and practice also have at times the view that one must seek God's guidance on certain matters and as far as I can see this boils down to an internal feeling or a bible verse; it's a kind of, God has called me to be a minister or a missionary or, even, God is leading us to build a new hall. Again this is mostly an individual pursuit.
The difficulty I have with all this is, that with the best will in the world, there aren't any verses in the bible which are going to tell us to build a hall or anything, so we end up sometimes with bits of the bible being taken out of context and related to decisions, for example, "I was reading about Nehemiah rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem, what is God telling us?" (my answer is that God was telling us about Nehemiah rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem!)
This also means, and you have identified it correctly, that the bible can be used in a way which is about justifying one's own position, so rather than it being treated as a book to be read as a collection of books, it is a source for proof texts, which often have the life spiritualised out of them.
From what I can see all of this God told me or I met an angel or whatever is about Christians, for whatever reason, adding weight to their decision making process, or perhaps it's an exercise in reassurance. I'm not really sure, but there is a certain amount of it in Protestantism.
My own view in the middle of all of this is that if one accepts the reality of God, and Jesus at all then the message of God is pretty straightforward really: I'm not all I'm cracked up to be, but there's mercy and forgiveness aplenty and we called to share it around, acting justly, and, if we dare, loving our enemies as we go in the hope of a renewed creation. God has already told us what to do, and it is the job of the church acting as a community rather than an institution or a disconnected group of individuals to get on with it.
Complain about this comment
very well put peter and thought out. i think a lot of christians would agree with your comments and when we were young in the faith we were succeptible to a lot of the above which you have mentioned. i liked your point on the bible being the rule of faith for protestants and yet a lot of emphasis is put on a thus saith The Lord. sometimes (should i say most times) The thus saith The Lord was contradictory to the rule of faith(the scriptures). bit like a well known politicain who stared his own church politcal party (i think you know who im hinting at) will not name him for fear that this blogg will be removed who a lot of people said God had raised up to be a prophet to Ulster and then went about the streets basically rabble rousing (not like The Master) and bringing the province into disarray by playing his part in the removal of terence o'neill (who only wanted to speak to nationalists) and brian faulkner who wanted to share power with nationalist (not republicans) this (prophet) went about the next 30 years continually wrecking every peace process who can forget the never never never then ends up sharing power with the I.R.A.!! maybe if he had listened to the rule of faith do good to them that despitefully use you in the 1960's ulster would not have plunged into the troubles it did and the deaths. (who knows?) and this is the problem with the charasmatic leader and the power they have over people. your 100% right peter we claim the scriptures as the rule of faith yet allow self appointed prophets to lead us the way they believe and yet at times we know to be wrong. its a contradiction in terms to claim the scriptures are the rule of faith and that we beleieve the bible and yet can listen to men define their intterprtation and follow it because it is accompanied by a thus saith The Lord. now this does not mean that we dont have leaders because leadership is important but the only Thus saith The Lord that we can truly say will be from one of the sixty six books in the good book
Complain about this comment
rjb - you are enraged that someone should dare give a Bible to a child. Really? You wouldn't happen, by any chance, to be the Lord of Righteous Anger come to visit your wrath on us Northern Ireland culchies?
Interesting. But totally irrelevant to the subject of this blog.
Complain about this comment
Mr Morrow.
Thanks a bunch for that. And for taking the time. I shall mull over it and let it inform me. From a first reading, I have already recognised a couple of gems.
Complain about this comment
BlackInga
By all means give a Bible to a child. Its the guy that comes with it that I have a problem with.
No, I am not the Lord of Righteous Anger, and if I would visit Northern Ireland with anything it would be with something other than wrath, there's an abundance of that around already.
I'm just a blogger who has been on this site for about a year and have contributed to - and learned from - it, during that year. To my knowledge, a thread is introduced on a particular subject and it then goes where it goes. (The recent thread about the landing on the moon being a conspiracy or not, spent most of its blogging inches on US foreign policy.)
For the record, my comment regarding Bibles being sent to orphanages was actually from the homepage of a church which I only found because the link was given on THIS thread. I was invited to read it. I did. And now I'm commenting on it.
I'd also say that given the amount of times the Bible has been quoted on this thread, and used corruptly, I think the point I made is highly relevant.
When I was in Kenya I read a book by an African poet who stated, "The White man came to my country with his Bible in one hand and a gun in the other. One was as damaging as the other."
I was probably too young and naive then, to understand what he meant. Now, I know exactly what he was refering to.
Complain about this comment
Malachy has put his full ww interview on his website. Well worth a listen!!
Listen to it @ www.malachiodoherty.com
Complain about this comment
RJB,
The lord JESUS said... that man cannot live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, that's why people in general give out Bibles to whoever.
The person who gives it out may be sinful and that goes for you, me and everyone.
The truth is, RJB, who's word do you highly rate.
Lastly, I think you let the cat out of the bag, you seem to know some what of the history off Whitewell and know that they hired an Orange hall to hold their meetings in, that was the order of the day, there was no such a thing as Community Centres in the 50s, so you have linked up and mix up the Orange Order with Whitewell and this is were I think your coming from.
Complain about this comment
149 romejellybean
"...you can make the Bible say what ever you want it to say".
Its possible the reason there are 100s of Protestant denominations is that some people can make the Bible say what they want. Those Protestant denominations that have their own seminary/college/university, all teach their version of Christianity. There may be parts they teach that are similar to another groups but there will be parts that they teach that will be different. For those who dont want to be aligned to the many 'mainstream' denominations but want autonomy, for whatever reason, they can chose from a cafetaria of doctrine. The less doctrine to tie them down the better.
The teachers of the different denominations understand the same passages of the Bible so different as to destroy all confidence in establishing which ones have the proper understanding. It's my view that none of them have the proper understanding. Many use the scriptures to justify their stance. Who's going to argue with the 'anointed one'.
It wouldnt suprise me if someone claimed to be called by God to set up a church for animals, citing Mark 16:15 and possibly Col. 1:23. this could prove to be a lucrative market with many 'old dears' eager to be told that they could be re-united to their cat or pooch in the here-after. Hymn barking would be hard to stick but with well-fitted ear plugs it could prove a nice little earner. Think of the marketing opportunities and the legacies. An idea for the Dragons Den dont you think?
Seriously though, Christians see the Bible as the solution but due to the number of translations from the various original records, the beliefs of its translators and the obvious ommissions (there has got to be more that what is currently available - common sense screams lots more), it could be the reason for the problem. Just a thought.
Complain about this comment
J the B
Micah
This is what Yahweh asks of you, only this- to act justly, to love tenderly and to walk humbly with God.
Are we going to just snatch at scripture texts and thump each other with them?
I'm not refering to the 'sin' status of some anonymous Santa Claus with a sack full of Bibles. I mean, the person(s) teaching these children. What version of the Bible will be preached to these little ones?
- Will they grow up to be loving people, tolerant, having a care for the poor, for justice. People who always try to see the good in others, who forgive readily, who turn the other cheek. People who are peacemakers, inclusive and hospitable?
OR
- Will they grow up to be humourless and exacting. So focussed on avoiding sin that they forget how to breath. People who are terrified of God and who have Hell always at the forefront of their minds. People who are driven by God, instead of being drawn to him?
The Bible in itself is harmless. In the wrong hands it is destructive. Just my opinion.
Whose words do I highly rate? I highly rated Ghandi when he told a Hindu who had murdered a Moslem, "You must now bring up the murdered man's child.... but as a Moslem."
I highly rated Mohammed Ali when he refused to be conscripted for Vietnam and he said, "This war is about white people telling black people to kill yellow people."
I highly rated the words of a woman called Jeanie Charters who went to her doctor complaining of a sore stomach, who when asked what colour her stools were, replied, "Mahogany with red tops!"
But at the very top of the list of people whose words will never leave me and who touched me to the core of my being, (and I've said this before on this site), were the words of the man at Enniskillen holding the broken body of his dead daughter and who said, "I forgive them..."
I dont know what Bible that guy had read, but its the right one.
Finally, J the B, I have no clue about the past history of WW and any connection with any Lodge. I read in some of the above posts that some guys were members of this lodge or that lodge. I dont know if the guys they were talking about were members of WW or not. There was no bag and there is no cat. That is truth.
Complain about this comment
Puretruthseeker
Thanks for your words which concur with what I am seeing and hearing. And.... thanks for the humour too. Very Funny. (I'm out!!)
Complain about this comment
Just listened with interest to the full UNEDITED version of the Sunday Sequence interview with Jim McConnell. It is very different to the edited version. McConnell was open and transparent. He did not avoid answering any of the questions that were put to him by Malachi. This is something that was not correctly portrayed in the edited version where it was made out that he was unwilling to answer questions. Not sure who actually edited the interview - but the final result was very unfair to Jim McConnell. The lesson is....don't trust the media. Sunday Sequence journalism is no different to tabloid journalism.
Complain about this comment
rjb - thank you for your response to 154.
For the record, the house rules here state that posts may be removed if they "are considered to be off-topic for the particular message board".
Perhaps this stipulation should be broadened to include when they are pompous, painfully self-indulgent, faux-homely or blissfully ignorant of the issues being discussed.
Back to reality. HappyCF - you are being unfair to Malachi O'Doherty. The criticism of PMcC was not that he was evasive, but rather on the content of his replies. Indeed, he was quite brazen.
He stated that he held an annual business meeting for members in which he goes "through all these (financial) particulars". Is this true?
He admitted to destroying the children's home in Romania, giving reasons that appear bizarre and aren't entirely aligned with John McCreedy's statement.
Complain about this comment
BlackInga
"For the record, the house rules here state that posts may be removed if they "are considered to be off-topic for the particular message board.""
They werent removed so obviously werent considered off topic.
"The Lord of Righteous Anger visiting wrath on us Northern Ireland Culchies" Maybe its pompous of me but I detect a whiff of inverted snobbery there.
- "Blissfully ignorant of the subject being discussed". (BlackInga.)
- "You seem to know some of the history of WW and know that they hired an Orange Hall..." (J the B.)
Which is it to be, guys?
My interest on this thread has been the Bible and its use/misuse, a topic apparently shared by many contributors.
Complain about this comment
BlackIgna, you are snared by your own words when you write
'Perhaps this stipulation should be broadened to include when they are pompous, painfully self-indulgent, faux-homely or blissfully ignorant of the issues being discussed.'
Complain about this comment
Sorry, I said I wouldn't contribute anymore....I'm off. Bye.
Complain about this comment
dom (or other WWellers) - what about addressing the issues? See the latter half of 163 addressed to HappyCF
Complain about this comment
If someone wants to claim that the unedited interview with Pastor McConnell is “very different to the edited version”, they should give chapter and verse to this effect.
As already stated, the crucial thing is Pastor McConnell’s claim that financial matters are disclosed to the entire membership at a business meeting. On this blog past members have vehemently denied this.
So very simple question: when was the last such business meeting and what was on the agenda?
Complain about this comment
What the interview unveils is that the pastors are all sanctimonious and that they should change that miserable droning tone of their voices.
Complain about this comment
169 pnj.
With you on the drone.
Did you ever listen to dup and free p'ers? A lot of them sound like Paisley.
Many mainstream ministers seem to have put-on, dramatic voices.
I find it funny. I can picture these people in training sitting at the feet of their 'heros' and, not only mimicing their phrases in their heads, but their accents and nuances. It's as if some of the credibility of their hero will rub off somehow.
I remember a free p. guy I used to know who tried to talk like Paisley. A bit like going to America for the summer and coming back with an accent.
Why do they do it?
Well, I believe, because there doesnt appear to be any real authority among the Protestant groups to speak in the name of God, that those who are ambitiously driven to be 'chosen' and, maybe not content with just that, but desire leadership, choose themselves. To give themselves credibility they got to corner a part of the market of believers. This is done in a number of ways. They can go down the scolarly way obtain a degree - the respected way. Or, they c
Complain about this comment
sorry, my computer has a mind of its own.
cont ... can claim to have had some sort of visitation, miraculous conversion, godly gift or insight into scripture and lead away those have become disaffected from some other leader who is losing his charisma or marlies - the Benny Hinn way.
Off course McC need to answer the questions that this Sunday Sequence interview has thrown up, but how these people got into their positions in the first place seems, to me, to be a more important issue.
Complain about this comment
I never answered the question of why aspiring church leaders put on a voice. It is, I believe, because their heros have some sort of credibility whether it be more angels, more 'gifts', more alleged intelligent, etc. So, putting together their credibility package requires, at least, a credible voice (sure even Moses had a problem with this one) and what better than the one that impressed them the most. Right, im away to finish my food. Burppp.
Complain about this comment
puretruthseeker i put the miserable voice which is original to a lot of evangelicals down to one of the bad side effects of the jesus drug. Lucky for me never listened to the free p'ers
Complain about this comment
Princessnewsjunkie
McC and the like play out a soap opera of enormous proportion and the gullible dont even know they are extras. They are like young children playing 'shop'.
I believe in a loving, kind, just and merciful God who is the father of our spirits and has given us free will during our stay on this planet. One thing I am pretty sure of also is that McC and the rest of the paid ministry do not represent that being. In fact they could be acting against Gods wishes by taking the stance they have. Is there one of them who can answer truthfully that they are 100% sure they are 'called' of God? I doubt it. If they claimed they were would they pass a lie-detector test? The totally deluded may. Just a thought.
Complain about this comment
Decided to inform myself on the subject matter of these threads and went way - way! - back to post # 1 and read all 1500. Wow!!
So many people speaking for God and so much casting others into Hell, its been a terrifying read.
It has prompted me to get back to praying my Bible again. Last night I read Mt 3: 23-24.
"So when you offer your gift to God at the altar, and you remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there at the altar. Go and make peace with that person, and then come and offer your gift."
At first I was thinking about the people I hold grudges against and how I would go about making peace with them. Then I realised that, that is not what this text says. It is not about me holding grudges against others, its about making peace with those who hold grudges against me!
Boy have I got my work cut out if I'm gonna make church on Sunday.
Complain about this comment
RJB
I can just see the headlines:
Protestants lead Roman Catholic back to the Bible!
Complain about this comment
Peter
Who knows where this might lead?
Ian Paisley and the Pope attend Gay Pride.
Rangers beat Celtic 8-2 to 7-1.
Minister passes with honours... at Maynooth.
One day............
Complain about this comment
Targets Important @ Metropolitan Church
An acquaintance visited Metropolitan Church recently and had occassion to scratch her forehead during the appeal
James Mc Connell counted " another soul repenting "
The lady in question spoke to " Supermac " on leaving the building and explained that she was only scratching her nose .
The pastor did not even take her under his notice when he learned this fact and he brushed rudely past her - he was only interested in statistics.
The lady was deeply saddened at the pastor's attitude and agreesive manner.
Complain about this comment
Is there a story you want Spotlight to investigate?
If you have genuine concerns about this story which you feel are the matter of public interest, please phone or email Spotlight your stories in confidence
Contact details found on website below
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/tv/programmes/spotlight/
Complain about this comment
I would say that this happens all the time NOW! they have too keep up appearances.
Complain about this comment
10 wks down the line and ww are tryin 2 get back their people with a love letter from the church. Well my 20 odd years at the church meant nothing because they have not contacted me in the last 10 wks so a letter like that is not going to be winning me back. Looks like they are trying to fill seats and boost their weekly income!!!!Pathetic!!
Complain about this comment
The letter that was sent out by the WWMT, by James McConnell and his pastoral team is like their Sunday Bulletin, mass produced impersonal piece of paper, and I wonder who printed it for them, James McConnell could not even take the time to sign it personally, his signature was printed onto the letter therefore making his words of a cold insincere nature, if the pastoral team at Whitewell really cared about the people who have walked away from the WWMT they would have sincerely taken the time to call on them, surely they have enough pastoral staff who have enough time to do so, I’m sure the past 10 weeks would have been ample time to get around most of us who have left rather than sending a cold letter through the post.
I received the letter even though I was not a member of the WWMT, I suspect that the reason I received the letter was because I tithed to the WWMT, which gives me even more reason to question the real motivation behind me receiving the letter.
Complain about this comment
Below is a copy of the “love” letter.
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
It is now 10 weeks since the division among us and my thoughts are continually with those who have left us and with those who have stayed.
For one who pastored this church for over 52 years it is impossible for me to forget those that have I loved and prayed for every day. I know this division has caused great sorrow to many people who have gone and have stayed. To others they feel they have been liberated and are rejoicing and to those people I wish them God’s richest blessing in their lives and in their families. I can say with an open heart toward the Holy Spirit, I bear them no ill will or malice but wish them God’s finest for their lives.
But I am conscious there are others who might feel “deep inside them” that they were too quick in going and responded to a knee jerk reaction. To those I say with all sincerity “the door is still open for you if you desire to return to us”. If you do return let me assure that you will be treated as if you were never away.
I am writing this letter because many people left without telephoning me or writing to me – there were others who did and I thank you for acknowledging me. It takes time to heal sorrow as it is taking time to heal my broken heart, but again I emphasise “I bear no malice to anyone.”
If I do not see you on this side of Heaven, I look forward to seeing you on God’s side. Then instead of seeing through a glass darkly, we will see face to face.
As I close this letter, let me say to you who have remained with me how much I appreciate your love and loyalty. It has not been easy for you, as it has not been for me but we have had this precious consolation “The Lord has never left us” and is beginning to bring new people among us. Thank you once again for your love and loyalty.
I remain your servant in Christ,
Pastor James McConnell and the Pastoral staff.
How heart rendering. I'll let you make your own judgement on it.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Rosey
Read the letter and see the charade of it all and the shambles.
If they cared about those who left, then go and visit them and don't send an IMPERSONAL COLD AND INSENSITIVE letter.
Take the scales from off your eyes and look at the bigger picture.
Complain about this comment
Well after 23 years of service and tithing into ww - I didnt even get a letter! Thats how much Im missed!! Not that im bothered - i never had a visit from Pastor Mc throughout 23years in ww, should I really hold my breath on a letter from him??? And a mass photo copied one at that. How personal and touching.
People seem to go on and on and on and on about how JMcC has been so hurt by all of this. Do they really think GMcK is rejoicing about it? He has been deeply hurt by it too. Let's see both sides of the coin here.
Im sorry to say it but i think its the peoples money JMcC and his pastoral staff aree missing and not the people themselves.
Complain about this comment
Hi Rosie - post 184. Good to see you back. I thought in MEGA CHURCH SUCCESSION blog post 668 you said you were signing off and leaving it to God but glad to see in true ww fashion you have changed your mind and came back. I got a letter after 30+ years albeit a photocopied mass produced one. The signature is not Pastor McConnells either - it is the one Linda signs on his behalf. Disappointing to say the least but the most disappointing thing is the venomous attitude of some ww folk which has manifested itself in the last 24 hours. I know of several brothers and sisters whom have been verbally slayed by such ww members - hardly in keeping with the letter conents. How anyone could go back there and in the words of the letter 'be treated as if you had never been away' when this kind of abuse is going on. A lot of contradictions going on - associate pastors wanting assurances that Pastor McKim will not be back, scout leaders being told they cannot continue to work with children in ww if they attend PCN and then the letter telling us we would be treated as if we had never been away. I for one will be staying put in PCN. God bless.
Complain about this comment
For instance let us say that 400 individuals have left the WWMT which probably means than the number of households that have left is fewer, let us then say that 300 households left, now divide 300 by 10 pastors that gives us a number of 30 households for each pastor to visit, over the past ten weeks each pastor could have worked his way through at least 3 households a week in fulfilling their duty as shepherds, hardly an insurmountable task, the number of actual members and tithers that have left is probably a lot less than 300 thus making the task of searching out the stray sheep of the WWMT an even less arduous task than was first thought.
As the time has went on the pastors at WWMT have made that task a harder challenge, I wonder are they up to the task that is before them.
One thing is for certain that the PR machine at the WWMT are not doing a good job, they are making one faux pas after another. Whoever is advising them on their public relations needs to get back to the drawing board and to draw up a new plan.
"but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits"
Complain about this comment
all for Jesus as much as I can understand your stance on a lot of things I dont think you should have put the letter on the blogg. whether we feel its heartfelt or not we cannot be judge of that because unfortunateley when splits happen everything that somebody says whether in letter or word it can be miscontrued so we need to be careful. pastor mcconnell might well have been very sincere in his letter it just that maybe you dont see it, but as i said during splits we can miscontrue what people are saying. i know you can come back and say well actions at present (ref mini me) seem to contadict these statements but the contents of the letter could be sincere and in my opinion are sincere and from the heart of a man who has pastored ww for 52 years and sees his church split well i do believe he is hurting. but as i said all for Jesus your stance has been all right but the letter i feel should not have been put on this blogg as whether it was foto copied or not it was the words of pastor mcc and what he felt
Complain about this comment
Back to reality - McConnell stated to Malachi O'Doherty that he held an annual business meeting for the members where he "goes through all the (financial) particulars". Is this true or did he tell a lie?
Rosie (184) - I have never complained about a posting on any blog although I've had some of mine censored by those who didn't want to hear what I was saying. However, you repeatedly use block capitals throughout your posts. If you continue to do so I will refer your post to the moderator. I apologise if you were not aware that this is considered ill mannered.
Complain about this comment
ref rose 184 please explain who has burned down churches?
Complain about this comment
I understand that Mal has taken down the ww BLOG
Complain about this comment
I agree that it would have been better for the pastors to visit people. As to the letter itself, despite it being signed on behalf of all the pastors, it is written in the first person singular and clearly from the Bishop's perspective. The tone is full of self-pity. There is also a clumsy attempt to "poach back" PCN people with a generosity of spirit that allegedly may be absent from others at Whitewell.
Perhaps tellingly in the last paragraph, Pastor McConnell refers to those who have remained "with me".
Unwittingly, the Pastor has underlined the points that many of Whitewell’s critics would make: loyalty to Whitewell as a church = loyalty to Jim McConnell as an individual. Where the interests of the church and the leader are indivisible, how can the leaders ever be properly accountable?
Oh and the "new people" at Whitewell may just be journalists there to dig – and shine a Spotlight?
Complain about this comment
"I understand that Mal has taken down the ww BLOG"
Wise man.
Complain about this comment
rosebetweenthorns
what are you talking about in your blog about setting fire to churches or do you mean the wrecking team that destroyed the romanian orphanage????
Complain about this comment
McC will never answer the questions that have been asked in this and other blogs, despite what has been written here. His opponents will continue to be his opponents and his supporters will continue to be his supporters.
The history of Protestant Christianity is one of splits and schisms. I believe the reason for this is that no Protestant schism, cult, denomination or group have the authority to represent God. Im not saying the Catholic church has either. If the Catholic church was wrong, then the Protestant churches that broke away from it were wrong too.
It is my firm belief that the church in the time of Constantine was different from the Church that Jesus established. There is still debate amongst historians and scholars as to which branch of Christisnity Constantine converted to. Whether it was the one that Jesus established or 'some other gospel' doesnt subtract from the very real possibility that Constantine changed things within the church to appease those with influence in his society who held pagan beliefs. It is reasonable to assume that the development of the church in the hands of Constantine changed it from its origins.
Fast forward 1200 years and we have Martin Luther challenging the authority of the Pope and the church. There is no doubt that Luther was an extremely astute person but he only managed to REFORM the church and not RESTORE it. That is, he turned it into something different again and not back to its original state. Despite his acumen his statements about the Jews among other things, deemed him less than Christlike. He seen some of the faults but he was ill-equiped to rectify them.
When Luther smashed the 'mirror' of Christianity it allowed others to lift a few shards and claim 'here is the truth'. Now all it takes is a little sliver for someone to set up a church or break away from the one to which they are aligned.
Does nobody else see this obvious possibility?
Could it be that the adversary has infiltrated the churches through those who set themselves up to be leaders? Im not being critical of the genuinely innocent church attender here, in fact, im concerned that they allow themselves to be led by those who are, 'Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth'.(2Tim. 3:7) Those who seek for favour, recognition, admiration, position, status and power may be apt to tell a few lies to get that leadership. Where is the authority to do God's bidding today then?
One thing's for certain; it didn't reside with Constantine or Martin Luther, neither does it with James McConnell nor George McKimm for that matter. You would all do well to turn away from the cult of personality and charisma.
Complain about this comment
I think that Supermac is a "Spin Doctor"
He will be working for the NIO next
Complain about this comment
IF I had received the letter from Supermac I would not return to WWMT
untill a FULL set of accounts have been published on the internet
Complain about this comment
Of course the Assistant Pastors do not wish for the Associate Pastor to
return to WWMT
He might hand out to many P45/s
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Well, I am neither WW nor PCN, just someone who once experienced the brusque side of the Bishop in the car park, and who is disturbed by the bizarre world of Whitewell.
Complain about this comment
#200#
REF ~197/198/199. I am not~ PCN ~ but I do like the Hilton Hotel/Templepatrick I understand that Supermac likes the carvary on a
Sunday
Ref #184# I understand that this has been removed from the site
Can you confirm the number of people that have left WWMT for PCN?
How is the pastor from Fantasy Island?
Complain about this comment
#200#
You are correct I do go on and on and on
#201#
You are 100% correct Supermac can be very very nasty
Complain about this comment
#200#
I understand that your last post has also now been removed
That makes 2 in a row I wonder why?
I also understand that WWMT do NOT have a BB company ;they have 112th Scout Group &230th Girls Brigade
BAD BLUNDER Rosie
Complain about this comment
Looks like any time facts are put on they are quickly removed.
RE. SBG 204
Looks like your the one making the blunder, as BB stands for a person not the boys brigade.
But i see the devils work is definatly going on wen you read all the comments on here.
Complain about this comment
To every child of God on this blog page I just want to say to you that I know that in some way because of the split at ww we have all felt the pain and the hurt that came with this split but reamber friend God sees all our tears and they are put in his bottle and they will not go unnoticed. The Lord of peace wants to bring a healing of peace to your hearts and minds, The Lord wants us his childern to put this split behind us and stop fighting with each other and focus our attention on a greater cause and that my friend is the extestion of his glorious kingdom. My prayer is that we all repent before the Lord for our hardness of hearts and ask him to send a revival to his peoples hearts and then to all of the country. If we have faith The Lord Jesus Christ he can do it. Reamber brother and sister what our Master said 'If you have love for one another people will know that your my diciples'
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#206#
You are 100% correct Do you go to PCN?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Hi rosie
i was wondering if by any chance you would actually answer the issues raised in the blogs i.e the statement that the associate pastors dont want Pastor George back, your change of heart in coming back to the blog, the signature on the letter - instead of ignoring them. You claim to know all the facts so can one assume that you have been present when some of these incidents have taken place? or is it just second hand info?
Complain about this comment
Rosie
Gathering by your knowledge on such incidents, it would suggest that you have either been present at them or you are being fed the usual spin from the WW leadership that they are the innocent victims in all this and they do nothing wrong. Maybe you should ask the pastor from WW who was involved in the infamous "church property burning" exercise why they were calling to the doors of those who attend PCN!!
And also, isn't it funny how the address book was wanted back after 9-10 weeks and then coincedentally the infamous love letter was sent out?!? Hmmmm something for you to ponder.
As has been stated, you said that you were not going to return to the blogs anymore. Again you change your mind.....must be the WW mindset to change their minds about things!!!
Complain about this comment
aliveinChrist
Your having a laugh, aren't you?
God sees all our tears and 'they are put in his BOTTLE'
What bottle?
'The Lord of peace wants to bring a healing of peace'
Is that just because of the issues being debated on this blog?
Surely He want us to remove the shackles from off our eyes so as we are able to see more clearly. Surely truth is important to Him. Is this not what all this is about?
'The Lord wants us his childern to put this split behind us and stop fighting with each other and focus our attention on a greater cause and that my friend is the extension of his glorious kingdom.'
Is that more of J MCC and WWMT?
Should we pray for a revival if we only get more of the same and no more truth?
'By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another'
Well, when in Christendom did this ever happen? Since the reformation Christians have fallen out over similar issues to those being played out in WWMT right now. There is no unity in Christianity. There never will be until Jesus Christ directs the Church and not paid ministry.
I can understand your concerns aliveinChrist but not only do ordinary people need to get answers from J McC but from every paid minister of religion. It should be in every Christians interest to ask their leader these questions:-
1) Did God call you to your position?
2) If so, how did He do that?
3) How can I get confirmation?
If you dont ask these questions and dont have positive proof, how do you know you are not being duped?
Complain about this comment
#209#
3 In a row removed
No hope of the "Truth" if this keeps on and on
Complain about this comment
"But i see the devils work is definatly going on wen you read all the comments on here."
Learn to spell, rosebetweenthorns. Also, how dare you accuse anyone who criticises Pastor McConnell and his church as being motivated by Satan. But that seems the stock response to any scepticism: when you pose any questions regarding the Bishop, his alleged angelic visitations and the way the church is run, you are deemed to be in league with the Devil.
Pathetic.
Complain about this comment
Puretruthseeker
Actually 'aliveinchrist' is not so far from the mark as you think. He/she was referring to Psalm 56:8 KJV. It's figurative of course and we need to be careful applying such thoughts to personal situations, and while I'm not making any comment on the WW circumstances in saying this, "put thou my tears into thy bottle", is most certainly there and seems to refer to the idea of God noting, or keeping records, or being involved in the everyday events of life.
Complain about this comment
Re #202#
perhaps supermac has become confused between carvary(sic) and calvary - obviously to his detriment!
Complain about this comment
petermorrow
Thanks for that. Im always grateful to be enlightened.
aliveinChrist
forgive my ignorance and my facetiousness.
I hope you take my other questions seriously though.
Complain about this comment
I can truly understand and agree that we all need to know the truth, and we all have to stand up for what is right but at least we have a God who is the way the truth and the life. If we all give our concerns and worries to The Lord and stop being offended and move on in his love and peace The Lord himself will sort out this mess his way and not our way. All we have to do is trust but in the mean time we should learn to forgive each other not for anyone elses sake but for our sakes.
Complain about this comment
aliveinChrist
I think you are right that the Lord would sort out such a mess if it involved His Church. But what if it's not His Church? This is what I have been saying from the start as I see what is happening in WWMT is symptomatic of a bigger issue. Instead of trying to put a plaster on a dead carcass, surely it's time to bury it.
Im not a conventional "born-again-church-attending-christian" because, despite believing, too many times I have been left unimpressed by those who claim to be called of God.
When you look at their credentials, you discover that their is no pattern to their "calling". Additionally, there is no way to substantiate their word.
I have many questions gleaned from the Bible which they(many) have not answered to my satisfaction.
Just like the anti-evolution arguement, I cannot see a proper linkage from the Church Jesus established to the christian churches of today.
The Bible says, "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, AS IN ALL CHURCHES OF THE SAINTS" (emphasis added) (1 Cor. 14:33). Now I defy any person on this planet, never mind in North Belfast, to prove to me that there is peace within their church congregation, never mind between their wee group and any other group, denomination, sect, cult or church.
By all means forgive without receiving apology but dont lets keep setting
ourselves up to be continually duped. Surely you would expect someone called of God to lead people toward truth, to be above reproach. Being imperfect you would expect them to admit their faults before being found out. As leaders you would expect them to be setting the example. If they dont/wont/cant, then amen to their leadership. If they dont, they stand in the way of truth.
Without James McConnell coming clean and answering the large number of questions that have been posed on this and other blogs, surely he has no right to continue on in the position he hold at WWMT. I believe if he were to respond to what I have been saying, and he was overcome with honesty, he would confess that God never called him to set up a church in the first place and that it was all his idea.
I, for one, wont be expecting a response. Then again, I dont give him my money or play charades with him.
Complain about this comment
215... its time to seek the Lord! and look at his perfect life.
Complain about this comment
puretruthseeker
Its completly true that when we look at the church on the outward appearnce it would seem that there is no love and no peace in the church at the moment and it would make people question if it is really christs church because it seems to be at that the Lord says one thing in his word but people within the church does the opposite. The only answear i can give to that is that the Lord Jesus said that there will be teears among the wheat and not to mention there are also wolfs in sheeps clothing. Its the enemy who places the teears and the wolfs within the church in order to destroy the work of christ. its not God's people who does not have love and peace in there hearts it is thoses within are churches who dont truly know the Lord. even The Lord Jesus had an enemy among his 12 [Judas] but look at how the Lord treated him, he washed his feet knowing full well that judas will betray him. the point im trying to make is its not the saints within the church that are doing wrong its thiose who are not of God attending are services. reamber what the Lord said 'By your fruits you will know them'.
Complain about this comment
aliveinChrist
Im talking about the inward reality not the outward appearance. For too long McC has been able to protect an appearance that supported his claim that he was directed by God/angel/revelation to establish a church. However, as just another denomination and given time, his claim has been eventually found to be wanting.
You see, nowhere in the scriptures is there a mandate for denominationalism, but rather for unity and connectivity. Check out 1Cor.1:10-12, 2Cor.13:11, Phil.1:27, 2:2, Heb.2:11 and especially Eph.4:3-5 and 11-14. Does this bear any resemblence to what exists today?
What is happening at WWMT is part of a pattern that began in the 1stCentury AD with at least 3 branches of christianity existing at the time which was the very thing that Paul had been warning about. By the time of Constantine assemblies proliferated but he put a stop to that when he adopted one of the schisms as the state religion. The pattern resumed with the "reformation" and monsters such as Luther, who claimed that the Bible was the only authority needed, and who introduced private interpretation. These reformers just made changes and did not restore the Church because, I believe, they lacked the authority. Schisms have abounded since then.
Today, no one knows how many denominations there are, never mind the number of single independant church assemblies.
The problem as I see it is this:
1. christians claim the Bible is the word of God
2. christians take the bible as their authority to speak in God's name
3. once "saved", the Holy Spirit shows them what the Bible text means.
If all these statements are true why dont all christians interpret the Bible the same way? Why are there no two denominations who agree about what God says? Why isnt there one way to understand what God means about homosexuality, disciplining children, divorce, virgin birth, atonement, resurrection, heaven, hell, perdition, salvation, satan, demons, free-will, predestination, end-times, creeds, the Godhead, the Holy Ghost, angels, baptism, gifts of the spirit, confession, repentence, paid ministry, calls to serve, etc, etc, and all the other hard to understand things that get ignored because no one has any idea what they mean - even though we are to, "...live... by EVERY word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God"? Phew!
I think, the leaders of the churches, sometime from the time of Constantine to the present day, have all perpetrated the myth that they have a "calling" from God to lead, when in fact they are the wolves who have entered in and they have been teaching a diluted Gospel to the fearful for "filthy lucre", honour among men, position, status and power. Indeed, by their fruits ye shall know them.
Bye the way, if you dont believe me just ask your pastor/minister/priest/etc to explain the Godhead to you as if you were an 8 year old child and watch the struggle in their eyes and see if you feel enlightened. I have yet to find one who has been able to explain it to me in a way I can understand it. This doesnt stop me believing in God or forming my own opinion from what i have read, but it stops me believing in them.
Somehow or other, I cant but help think that christianity has got it wrong - badly wrong.
Complain about this comment
As i said further back, like the economists and the politicians who have shown themselves up for what they are, religionists will keep their heads down and let thing blow over until things return to "normal". The status quo will be maintained. There is too much money and power tied up in such institutions and although we may be allowed our opinion, to whoever will listen, soon everyone will forget what was said.
Knowing this before I started commenting, im sorry I opened my mouth in the first place.
Why should I care, anyway, if the easily impressed are duped by a range of unbalanced, self-deluded charlatans? They pay their money and they get a "good" stage show.
Reading back over what iv said, I do care.
Complain about this comment
RE.211 AFJ
I have nothing to ponder.
If you think things like that are ok then you are not a god fearing person. Fact.
Complain about this comment
RE.212 PTS
Perhaps you should take your own advice and ask G MK to answer your questions seeing as he's changed his answer's. Or is it a case of he can thats ok.
Complain about this comment
RE.213 SBG
Looks like thats right, seem you's definately dont want it known about BB'S underhand antics.
Complain about this comment
RE.214 EE
Learn to spell!!! Well likewise.
OH so sorry i forgot its all one sided on here your only allowed to slag people of if you belong to PNC.
So sad and so pathetic your posts are.
Complain about this comment
Hi Rosie
so saddened to see that you responded to 4 bloggers posts but yet again have failed to respond to my post 210. I would really love to know your thoughts on the statement with regards Pastor George never being invited back to ww, your change of heart etc but in true ww fashion the issues are ignored or swept under the carpet. With regards your post 226 the address book was burned in front of a ww pastor (but you would appear to already know that) so it was hardly underhand and i am still wondering why they wanted it when all the ww pastors have a copy of the same book and with regards post 224 - absolutely ridiculous to say someone is not God fearing.
Re post 227 - i think if you check post 201 you will find that EE is not a PCN member - fact!
The letter has been printed in the Belfast Telegraph yesterday I suppose the only good thing there is that the members/ex-members who did not get a copy can see it for themselves because i know for a fact that certain ex-members did not get one and everyone of them sent letters of resignation with their addresses on!!
Complain about this comment
Rosie
Ref # 224
In what way am I not a God fearing person?
The book was burnt in front of a pastor from WW (the fantasy island resident to be precise) so could you please explain why they wanted it back AFTER 9-10 weeks when they all have their own copy??
Also, have you ever been to a business meeting where Pastor McC has discussed every financial situation with the members of WW? I attended since I was born and can never remember a meeting of the sort nor can my parents either! Seems like a yarn was spun on that one!
Also, do you agree with the wrecking of the home in Romania? After all, it was paid for by the WW people and they were not informed of what had happened until AFTER it had been destroyed. Wonder what they would think if they came in some Sunday to find the church itself had been destroyed by Pastor McC and the Demolition Brigade.
You seem to know a lot of facts about the infamous book burning etc. Again I say that this would suggest that you were present at them or you are indeed being fed the usual spin from the leadership at WW. Therefore seeing as you seem to know a lot of things would be going on, would you enlighten all of us who have asked the question about what happened to the organist and why he was told to leave WW and would you enlighten us all about the Billy Elliott situation as well and what ever happened with Leslie Lyons and did that ever make it to court?
And by the way George isn't changing his answers to anything. George hasn't spoken to the media about the whole situation as he doesn't have to say anything. What you are hearing on the radio and reading in the newspapers reeks of desperation. It was also good to see the majority of the letter in the Telegraph as those who hadn't received one where able to read it (this depsite the article saying that the letter had been sent to ALL members of WW...I wonder-did Pastor Blake or McKim get one??) I also know of someone who hasn't been in WW in 8 years and they received one!!
I await your answers Rosie.
P.S Maybe you should team up with up with Pastor McC and we could call you's Rosie and Jim.
Complain about this comment
"So sad and so pathetic your posts are."
Well, arosebetweenthorns, you (or anyone else) are free to tear any of them to shreds. Only you haven't. And, given the abusive quality of your posting, I suspect you can't. After all, as the leading defender of WW here, you have ducked every question directed at you.
Let me have one last try: when was the last WW congregational business meeting? Come on, arosebetweenthorns, answer.
No, I'm not a member of PCN, because I would have had to have been a member of Whitewell originally. Many years ago, I was part of a group of visiting young Baptists who was told in the car park one Sunday night by the Bishop never to come back after one of our group challenged the theology of McConnell's sermon.
I now attend a large evangelical church in London: if McConnell was to do his normal theatrical rant there, he'd be shown the door.
Oh and in my church, we don't smash up our missionary facilities and tell the congregation afterwards.
Complain about this comment
Hi Rosie
Ref 226
I would be interested to know the identity of B B ( not the Boy's Brigade ) and also the underhand tactics you allege that have been used
If you have EVIDENCE not to be confused with Information - perhaps you would reply to this post or alternatively leave the information with Linda Hobson or Geraldine Higgins for collection in an envelope FAO - smartbiggeorge
Complain about this comment
229 AFJ
(really think a name change here is called for maybe ... ALL4PCN)
Maybe you should ask your own pastor and retired pastor as surely they can answer these GMK can definately answer about the drama over the organist as he was the one that sorted that scandel out, and as for BE well just ask BB no love lost there.
and yes one thing you did get right not many WW'S on here mostly jjust PCN'S so that says it all.
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Well Rosie
Once again you don't answer questions. You really are of the WW mould at present.
So it took George McK sort out the organist situation?? Tell me, for Pastor McC to be the LEADER AND THE MAN in WW, why did he not sort it out? Did he know about it and do nothing about it? Did the other assistant pastors know about it? You seem to know a lot about things that happened and are happening...would it be safe to say that you WORK there?
More PCN on here than WW says what?? WWer's don't want to face up to the truth thats what it says. What happened to the home in Romania was DISGRACEFUL. Destroyed because " I believed that there was a paedophile ring". Where's the evidence of it? Just because you think that there is something doesn't mean it's true. But then again WWer's think that Supermac can do no wrong and that he was right in what he did. Well he was wrong. It was built by the WW people and they should've been consulted about the home before ANY action was taken on it.
Again the questions are put to you.
1. When Pastor McC announced to the church that the Spirit told him that George McK was to take over on the 1st weekend in October, how come that this isn't happening?
2. Do you agree with the "A-Team" Demolition Brigade destroying the home in Romania on the basis that Pastor McC believed there was a paedophile ring in the government?
3. Have you ever attended an open meeting where the financial situations etc were shown to the members in WW and discussed openly?
Complain about this comment
#Rosie#
I have lost count of the number of times you have broken the house rules
and have had you posts removed
Do you think it would have happened to PCN members?
Any update on Bertie Bassett?
Complain about this comment
I should have known that those who allow themselves to be lead will never challenge the authority and motives of those with ambition to lead. Does no one ever stop to ask, "who are these people who set themselves up to lead, represent, advise, govern, etc. ?"
Why is there so much nepotism in politics especially in the Northern Ireland variety? It's him and his son, or daughter, or wife. What qualifies these people to be able to run the country? Did they start off small, gathering success and work their way up? Take Obama; did he start off in a small country and then over time work up through the divisions until he got to the premier league? Off course he didn't. You cant say that they are all highly intelligent. I can prove they are not with one word - Dubya.
So who are they, and why are they not to be "misunderestimated" when trying to understand their motives.
Like politics, religion is about power. Then again so much in our world is about power. The military general with power over life and death, the investment banker who can make millions in a single transaction or destroy an institution, the medic who can save life or terminate it, the industrialists with power to pollute or conserve our fragile eco-system, the scientist who can enlighten or support philosophical tenet, and so on. Its all about power.
From my experience, those who take power have to appear to have something that most others don't have. It can be a range of things but two thing they all must have is to appear to know more about something that the rest of us don't know and the ability to talk well. They must be able to sound convincing.
Recently I found some clips of child preachers on YouTube. Children as young as 2 years old making the "right" sounds and really able to work the crowd. I know that these young children could not have understood the complex ideas they were spouting but for all intents and purposes they sounded convincing.
I remember years ago watching a programme about young adolescents in Northern Ireland debating Unionist and Republican views. They sounded like their elders repeating the same rhetoric and aping the same mannerisms. Somehow or other I didn't get the impression that their "wisdom" had been carefully thought out by themselves - well, the ones who were making the most noise that is. But again, they sounded convincing because they said the same things as they had heard their elders speak.
So, what I'm saying is that if someone seems to say the “right” things and act in an “acceptable” fashion, it doesn't mean that they are more able to take on special responsibilities, it just means that they know what to say and how to act in a particular way.
To lead in religion, jargon/rhetoric/meaningless phrases/over-wrapped concepts are just some of the “tools” required to bluff. The purpose of jargon is to protect the "professional" - the leader, the pastor, the minister, the "bishop". If you want power, therefore, you need to learn the lingo. I used to know a community worker who would only use jargon when in conversation about his work. His job was about empowering local communities. I witnessed his work with one group who stopped asking him questions after a while and just nodded their heads for fear of looking ignorant. He did very little. He was increasingly promoted. Those whom he "worked" with to become empowered, sadly weren't.
Jargon is only meaningful to the "professional". It elevates the user above those whom they should serve. It's function is to protect and mystify the user and establish the relationship of superior and subordinate. There are many examples of jargon in this blog as the followers(those who should be empowered) mouth such meaning phrases learned from their leaders. Phrases like:
my walk with the Lord
after God's own heart
a season of prayer
pray for a harvesting
covered in the blood
his ministry is anointed
praise the name of Jesus
blood bought
believers baptism
pour out the fire of his spirit
a healing of peace
leave it at the cross
pray for an outpouring
the trinity
spiritual warrior
selah
ask Jesus into your heart
travelling mercies.
These are just a few of the meaningless phrases, obscure terminology and quirky idioms that I remember of the top of my head but I'm sure 100s can be added to the list. To me such phrases can hardly mean that much to the speaker and much less to the hearer.
So who is your earthly spiritual leader? It's my belief that when they were younger they seen something in one of their predecessors that struck a chord with them. Just like when I was a child I had this Dinky sports car with big fat tyres and when I reached the age to drive I desired that type of motor car. My second car was a Vauxhall Viva that had been sported-up with additional balooned out wheel arches and had wheels as wide as bus tyres. It wasn't very good – all show and no substance and proved a bit of a disappointment. Since then my cars have been bought for their functionality and not their appearance. So, just like me in my desire to drive a sporty car, I'm sure they fantasised about standing at the pulpit. I'm sure they postured in front of the mirror. I'm sure they wrote their wee sermons. I'm sure they will hardly admit to it now.
Their early desire to preach from the pulpit alone is no qualification to be called of God any more than my desire to drive a sporty car made me a rally driver.
I remember seeing a tribute band called The Cavern Beatles. Some people at the gig thought they were brilliant. For some reason it put me off tribute bands. It seemed sort of all right at the time but the more I reflected on it, the more aware I became of how cheap and phoney it all was. Yes, they looked a bit like The Beatles. Yes, one guitarist had the round John Lennon glasses. Yes, the bassist played a left-handed Hofner. Yes, they all wore Sgt. Pepper psychedelic uniforms. Yes, they sang the songs that I had come to love. Yes, at times they even hit the right note and seemed to sound like my favourite band. But sadly they were not The Beatles but rather a niche cabaret band of limited talent trying to make a living and trying to get as close as they could. I don't really have a problem with such tribute bands, it's just I don't go to watch them any more.
It's my conclusion that the ministers of religion are Cavern Beatles, Elvis look-a-likes, impersonators and power hungry people who, due to the apparent lack of Gods authority on the earth, have taken this honour upon themselves. Those who let them maintain their fantasy need to become more aware of their game. For me when people who have done what has been done in WWMT it's time that not only should they be asked to come clean about what their behaviour has thrown up but their credentials should come under question with regard their authority. It could well be that such leaders are those that the Bible warns against. So, I would say to all those who have any interest in truth to look at the bigger picture here and ask the bigger questions that so far no one seems interested in.
Complain about this comment
Puretruthseeker Ref 219:
You question the authenticity of local churches based on a particular text from 1Cor 14:33 and do not see the linkage between these and the Church Jesus established. While I applaud the search for truth it will be continually frustrated if the search does not go beyond the superficial reference to proof texts.
I would suggest 1Cor 14:33 answers the very question you are asking. Paul points out to this congregation that God is not the author of confusion but of peace and that this is not just true of their congregation but of all churches. Why does Paul need to make the statement at all? Isn't it because he is challenging the confusion that exists in Corinth? Not only is there confusion - but division, factions, immorality, power struggles and the abuse of freedom. That sounds a lot to me like some of the churches you have referred to. Can you not see the similarity? Does Paul ever suggest to the Christians in Corinth that they are not part of the real Church? In spite of all their flaws and failings he is crystal clear as to whether or not they are the real deal and points this out in 1Cor 1:2. It is because they are part of the real Church of Jesus Christ that he tells them their behaviour is totally unacceptable, that it is not initiated by God and he calls them to live differently.
If you read much at all of the New Testament Churches you will find repeated challenges to completely unacceptable behaviour that looks exactly like the Churches you describe. Why is it identified? In order to call people to something better and challenge the mediocrity that many are willing to settle for.
What would the necessary criteria be that would allow you to authenticate someone's call to leadership?
Please do not misread my position. I do believe that there is an absolute demand for accountability to all who are in leadership.
Complain about this comment
Puretruthseeker Ref 222:
I'd be interested to hear from you what you think a restored Church would look like. It seems a massive leap evidentially to cite two specific points in history and infer from that and the present that all leaders are perpetrating a "myth" of calling.
The objective test that you give for identifying the veracity of a leader's calling defies logic. If a leader cannot explain the Godhead in terms comprehensible to an 8 year old that apparently proves your point! Have you ever wondered why most 8 year olds are not sitting degrees or involved in bio chemistry or researching the properties of dark matter? There is a reason that curricula are carefully set in relation to age. There are lots of complicated concepts around a wide variety of disciplines that we do not expect to be comprehensible to 8 year olds.
This of course only relates to the development of intellectual understanding and does not include the not insignificant challenge of grasping the nature of an all powerful, infinite being who has delared himself to be beyond understanding!
Complain about this comment
Puretruthseeker Ref 236:
You say that you should have known that those who allow themselves to be led will never question or challenge the leaders. If that were true the threads on this blog about WW would not exist. It seems to me that the majority of 1500 posts are from people questioning and challenging. Perhaps that fact has escaped your attention. It is not going to help your search for truth if you apply the actions of a tiny minority to the whole and then draw conclusions.
You ask how leaders get appointed to positions of prominence and citing Obama as an example you conclude they do not work their way up by serving and proving themselves. Let me fill in the gaps of your Obama illustration. I agree that he did not first lead a small country (funny that - that we don't get people from other countries to learn the trade of leadership on foreign nations just because they're small)but he did pursue an education at Columbia Uni and Harvard Law School. He did serve as a community organizer before practicing as a Civil Rights lawyer and he did teach Constitutional law at the Uni of Chicago. He served 3 terms on Illinois State Senate before being elected to the US Senate and he fought elections in all sorts of primaries in order to win the Democrats nomination. He then put himself up as a candidate and was democratically chosen to be the leader of his nation.
I'm not sure what this has to do with the appointment of leaders in Church but it does seem that you have questions about what right anyone has to be in a position of leadership. How would you appoint political leaders and what would the criteria be for them to qualify to serve?
You make reference to power in religion and politics and then cite soldiers, bankers, medics, industrialists and scientists as areas of life that are about power. I am not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that all these professions are only interested in power or are you simply acknowledging the fact of life that they all have power? We all have power in some measure - so what? Do you think that any of those that you refer to decided to pursue a course of life that would use their talents in serving others? There are industrialists who could not spend their fortune on themselves or their families in a thousand lifetimes yet they are still working long hours, employing thousands and enabling lots of people to live fulfilled lives. Why do they do it? Why do they not retire, and selfishly never work another day again? They could close their companies and live at ease but they don't.
It is easy to criticise others in positions of leadership in life but I would love to hear constructive suggestions from you about how some of these things might be done differently. You say you want to engage the bigger questions but that is only possible if you have suggestions otherwise when the questions have been asked the conversation finishes.
My first car was a Vauxhall Magnum with rostyle wheels and lots of dials in the dashboard. It wasn't any better than a Viva but it used a lot more petrol. I have had loads of different cars since. Functionality and appearance are not mutually exclusive. Do I assume that because children imitate adults and people repeat what they hear from others that everbody is more concerned about image than substance? No. Do I think that lots of people say things that are poor echoes of others and are not their own thoughts? Yes - in all sorts of areas of life! Do I think that some people don't ask enough questions or the right questions and say things that are not carefully considered and that lack reasoned argument? Yes - I think that's obvious from these last three posts.
Complain about this comment
grammarsgonetopot
I do not question the authenticity of local churches just based on 1Cor. 14:33.
I do go beyond, “...superficial reference to proof texts”
1Cor. 14:33 does not answer the question I am asking.
I cannot see the similarity between current churches and “earlier” ones – quite the contrary.
Paul rightly states that the Christians at Corinth are part of the real Church.
I have read much about New Testament Churches from the New Testament but little commentary.
My argument is that the Church established by Jesus has not survived in a continuous unbroken chain to the present day. My view is based on my reading of the New Testament, my superficial understanding of the history of Christianity and the evidence that I see before me of what appears to be the blind/deceiver leading the innocent.
Each time I have read the New Testament I have tended to pick up a theme and look for evidence to support that theme. Church structure, authority, requirements for salvation, the relationship between God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, and warnings have featured when reading the scriptures. One thing we can be sure of is that the early Christians would have had a sound understanding of such doctrines the nature of the Godhead, baptism, the Lords Supper, the atonement, salvation, gifts of the Spirit, paid ministry, angels and so on. Unfortunately, we cannot say that we share their understanding.
In showing that there was some sort of structure and authority which is different than that which exists among present-day Christians churches, I will not write them out verse by verse but will quote the references for you to look up if you are interested. In order but not in strength, they are:
Matt10:1, Mark 13:34, Luke 10:1 John 15:16, Acts 6:5, 9:17, 13:2-3, 14:23; 2Cor. 10:8, Eph. 4:11, 1Tim. 2:7, and Heb. 5:4. Read in context, they tend to point to some system/organisation/structure that was controlled with authority.
It also appears that this structure and authority was under some stress given that the religion was relatively new and each area presented its own challenges to the leadership. Paul's letters included instruction, exhortation, encouragement, correction and were regulatory in nature. However, they all included warnings and showed the frailty of the Church. The letter to the Romans partly, for instance, was dealing with those who looked upon the new church as an outgrowth of Judaism. The letter to those at Corinth rebuked the lack of unity amongst it's “cosmopolitan” membership. The letters to the Galatians and the Colossians addressed the wholesale defection and falling into error respectively. There are quite a few exhortations given throughout the scriptures warning the unwary to be careful of those who would deceive and the harm that could be inflicted on the Church. It's a theme that is hard to miss and even Jesus himself issues such warnings. Paul even goes as far to state in Acts 20:29 “For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you , not sparing the flock”. Other references I cite, again in order but not in strength, are:
Matt. 13:25, 24:5, 24:24; 1Cor. 11:18, Gal. 1:6, 3:1, 2Thes. 2:3, 1Tim. 1:6, 4:1; 2Tim 1:15, 2:18, 3:5, 4:4; Tit. 1:16, 2Pet. 2:1, 1John2:18, 4:1; Jude 1:4, Rev. 2:2.
We know from the history books that there were 3 branches of Christianity by the end of the first century. By the time of Constantine it is feasible to say there was more. Which brand of Christianity did Constantine adopt? Who knows? If God previously had called his servants to office, was Constantine now able to over-ride Him and call his? It is my view that if the Church hadnt already been infiltrated and polluted by the time of Constantine that after adopting it as the state religion of the Roman Empire it ceased to be the Church of God anyway.
If the Church still remained the Church of God after Constantine, what's to say that it still isn't. The Catholic Church has remained fairly intact despite a split about 1000 years ago. The Reformation has only caused further schism to the extent that there are over 1000 denominations and 1000s of single autonomous churches who don't seem able to agree with anybody. It's ironic how the Protestant Christians can't find complete connectivity with each other but criticise the Catholics, who have kept their structure reasonably intact. If the Catholics didn't have the authority to act in the name of God, then how did breaking away from such a group provide the authority that existed in the time of Paul? The Protestant Church is just an apostate breakaway group from the Catholics.
What I'm saying, therefore, is that it is highly unlikely that the true Church survived to the time of Constantine. If it did, Constantine obviously changed it. Protestants reformers such as Luther lacked the authority never mind the morality to restore the Church and subsequent schisms and conduct have rendered the churches less than credible.
So I do not base the lack of authenticity on one verse but from those that I have cited, the history of Christianity and the conduct of it's leadership.
Paul's letter to the Corinthians their authenticity because he had the authority to do so. Today there is no one who can vouch for any of the denominations because there is no one with the authority. So, I can't see the similarity.
Again, it's was the membership that Paul's letter was addressed to, not the leaders alone. Whereas it's the leaders today who need the counsel.
Why am I writing this? To challenge the mediocrity that they are willing to settle for.
You asked what would be necessary to authenticate someone's call to leadership. I don't think it should be based on their charismatic personality. I don't think it is their dramatic “conversion”. I don't think it should be based on their claim that God showed them favour(angels, etc.) unless God can give me some proof that He did. I don't think that it should be based on their ability to achieving a diploma.
I do think it should be based on their ability to carry out their responsibility while the do a real job. Read how Stephen was “called” in Acts 6 1-6. Read in Acts 8 and you get the sense of order with Philip preaching and people being baptised and Peter and John having to come to conferring the Holy Ghost. Read in Acts 9 how the Lord instructed Ananias to attend to Paul and again how he was baptised. In Acts 13 we read of the way the Lord calls Paul to represent Him – through others who have authority who must have got it from others with authority. Paul when returning to Lystra, Iconium and Antioch ordained elders as recorded in Acts 14:21-23. I could go on and on flicking through the pages of the Acts but what I have stated should suffice.
As I read the scriptures I am left without doubt that the Church Jesus established had a specific structure and possessed authority. As I look at what exists today; somehow or other no matter how hard I try, I can't see that structure nor do I sense that authority.
Please do not misread my position. I believe that God is my Heavenly Father and that Jesus Christ, in some way, paid the price for all the wrong in the world, including mine share of it. I believe if we strive to be like Him that some day beyond this world we will. I am not a member of any Christian Church and I have no problem with those who do attend. I do have a problem with those who know they lack authority and continue to live off the innocent.
Complain about this comment
ref 238 grammarsgonetopot
The truth is that I'm not exactly sure what a restored church should look like but there is plenty of information in the New Testament. If this information was seperated out at least it would prove to be a starting point. However, as I lack ambition to lead in the conventional sense I and I don't have authority, I don't see it as my responsibility.
RE:Understanding. My dad taught me that if you can't explain a concept to an 8 year old, you don't understand it yourself. He wasn't that well educated but the longer I live the more I appreciate his wisdom. I am sure that Jesus, Paul or any early Church member could explain the concept of the Godhead to an 8 year old. I do recall that Jesus put his hand on the head of children and prayed - obviously prayers they could understand and hardly nursery rhymes.
The problems I have with the the concept of the Godhead are two-fold. Firstly, I don't understand it. Secondly, it doesnt appear in the Bible.
Now, the inability to explain any one of the various concepts of the Godhead in a simple fashion would not prove my point but it would provide evidence that the "man of God" doesn't understand the very object of his worship.
Bye the way, when did God or Jesus declare himself to be beyond understanding? Surely Jesus stated in John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ, who thou hast sent".
How can we ever get to know Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ if we can't understand their nature?
Heading to bed so if I get a chance tomorrow night I will respond to ref 239.
Complain about this comment
ref 239 grammarsgonetopot
I don't think that the post on this blog are challenging those who have ambition to lead. They are concerned with a symptom. From my reading there are 3 different types of “camps” here. Those who support WWMT, those who have left McConnell's church or have some “axe to grind” with him and those who say they don't believe in religion at all. I am partly in the second camp and slightly in the third one.
I know that the third camp is unlikely to be influenced by what I say, however, I thought that my remarks may strike a chord with others who have had a similar experience to myself. That experience is one in which I have become sceptical, not only of all the powerful professions but, of religion in particular. From the start, my comments have not been about the obvious problem that is evident in WWMT but about the underlying cause of that problem. As I seen the threads tapering off, I made my comment that you refer to, hoping to catch some interest, as I feel strongly that this is just a storm in a teacup and will be forgotten about soon and the status quo will be maintained. In the same way that exposure of politicians criminal use of expenses, bankers inability to understand the economy, the inability of the military to access the threat from “enemy” nations (Iraqs “weapons of mass destruction), flagrant disregard of the environment by industrialists, and such like can all be papered over and those in power just become more crafty and harder to catch the next time.
I have no faith in any of them and the victors always write the history. In 20 years time Americans will have “power-washed” Bush jnr and hold him up as a good President as they do with all their Presidents. Even at home the future generations may view Paisley as the man who brought peace to Northern Ireland when in fact he said “no” for so long until it suited him, causing more pain than was necessary. As for Obama, I'm not impressed with his background. Bush had not dissimilar credentials. Time will tell with Obama but I am not ecstatic.
How would I choose political leaders you ask. I don't know. I choose to ignore them because I have a general distrust toward them and the system. Generally they want to appear righteous in some way but I find them hypocritical. I don't vote. However, I have the right to say I don't trust them without providing a solution to a better way.
I personally believe, because of my experience, that people generally are as much concerned with image over substance. Those who set themselves up as leaders have, in the past, been able to provide the own spin. Nowadays, leaders in all areas employ those who can provide that spin for them. If a leaders interests are threatened they rarely admit to it but “spin the truth”. Though, “I did not have sex with that woman”, wasn't able to save Clinton no matter how he tried. Here, he's fairly sanitised now.
I believe that most of us are unsure about most things. Science has only scraped the surface in all disciplines. However, there are those puffed up who would try to convince they know more than the next. I believe we are all like little children who ape our elders or those who appear smarter. What history has shown, however, is just how little was known by those in the past who thought they knew it all. Those in the future will look back on us and come to the same conclusion. What this teaches me is that I know little yet I'm willing to learn. Off course, I have my own opinions but I'm willing to change/correct/revise/ them should I come into contact with greater knowledge.
You say that when, “... the questions have been asked the conversation finishes”. That might be so. However, the answers can sometimes throw up aspects that were never considered before which can provide other questions or better informed solutions.
As for industrialists, I don't buy your spin. I just don't see the mega-rich knocking their pan in for the workers they employ. If they were to retire they would sell their business to another company with the result that they would have enough money for another 1000 years, as you put it, and the workers would still be in employment.
You question me on my views but you fail to tell me yours, leaving me to conclude you accept the status quo. That is your prerogative. But please afford me the same right without trying to undermine my argument with sarcasm vis-a-vis, “If you read much AT ALL of the New Testament Churches” and, “...say things that are not carefully considered and that lack reasoned argument? Yes - I think that's obvious from these last three posts”. When I think of some of the statements you have made I could be as equally unkind.
Ref238
The two specific points in history I refer to are two extremely important watersheds in defining the line of authority of the Church. If the line was not broken prior to the first date, then it obviously was on that date. Either way, if this was the case, which I believe it is, the Reformation was irrelevant in establishing the truth or the true church. My conclusion is, therefore, that if the authority has not already been established, unbeknown to the masses, it has yet to be. It is obvious from reading the New Testament that there was authority in the ancient Church. If the churches today cannot show the same authority do they have the right to claim they represent God? This is just something that has occurred to me recently and I think its important to know.
Complain about this comment
Puretruthseeker Ref 240:
Thanks for your reply which helps to clarify your position to me. I have no doubt that the NT churches had some understanding of the numerous doctrinal issues that you cite. However, it is clear that for some it was partial and poorly worked out. Corinth is challenged about entirely unacceptable practice around the Lord's supper and they are told that what they are practicing is not the Lord's supper at all. They are confused in their understanding about spiritual gifts hence the correction advised by 1Cor 12-14. Galatians and Hebrews both challenge misconceptions about the nature of salvation.
The texts you quote to illustrate structure and authority are interesting in that it would be impossible to put them together into a single method. You draw attention to Stephen specifically but what is interesting about his choosing is that it was done by a group of his peers based on specific qualifications and it was for the purpose of serving food to widows. There are people similarly appointed within some churches today but if they were to widen their ministry in the way that Stephen and Philip did it would be objected to because their call was to a much more limited sphere of ministry
If on the other hand you used the method of Paul's calling how would you verify this. Paul said he saw Jesus and that Jesus called him (any leaders like that today?)but who can testify to that. The early church didn't believe him at first and were very suspicious of him. Paul claimed angelic visitation yet that seems to be one of the stumbling blocks that you have made reference to with today's leaders. There is undoubtedly structure in the NT church with elders (the word is interchangeable with bishops) appointed in local churches and there was some translocal covering but how in reality did it function? Paul pleads with churches to listen to him and asks them to acknowledge his authority (it seems that some were very reluctant to do that and he had no capacity to demand it) and John acknowledges that there is a leader (Diotrophes) who will not recognise him or his colleagues but he has no power to remove him?? Some of the texts you refer to identify prophets in leadership but there is no explanation as to how they were called or appointed. Would you be happy to have prophets in leadership today and how do you think they should be appointed?
Jesus only mentioned the church twice in the whole of his ministry and on one occasion it was to say he would build his church and the gates of hades couldn't stop it. If you accept his word that means he is building his church and it matters a whole lot to find out what that church is because he calls people to be a part of this called out group. He does not invite people into isolated relationship with God. It will be a perfect spotless church (bride) that he presents to the Father. The church is the pinnacle of his redemptive purpose in the world according to the NT writers. It is not sufficient therefore to challenge the structures that you see if you are actively seeking something better. It is also essential according to NT writers that the world sees a community that lives out the teaching of Christ. There are many NT references to positive "one another" statements. These demand meeting in a corporate setting. NT Christians are urged not to forsake meeting together. This all necessitates identifying the hallmarks of the real church and getting into it.
I am not sure what the three strands of Christianity were that you refer to by the end of the first century but I accept that Luther was limited in the outcome he achieved. It seems to me his intention was to question/challenge leadership who were abusing power by the sale of indulgences and I am not sure that he ever expected to be excommunicated or to see a Reformation in the way that he did. Sometimes asking questions leads to consequences that we had not forseen and for this reason it is important that we try to find answers not just ask questions.
I do not in any way dispute that the NT church had both structure and authority but that did not prevent it from division, immorality, false doctrine or poor leadership. All those things are recorded of the NT churches and had been warned about. It is for this reason that I would see much similarity with the church of today. It is clear from the NT that local churches were overseen by elders and their responsibility is clearly identified. The qualifications are also clear but the method of appointment is not.
It is also evident that there was accountability whatever the level of leadership. Paul and Peter both make their case to a council in Jerusalem made up of apostles and elders. It is a Biblical principle that those under authority can exercise authority. I do not think that any church leader should be unaccountable but if they are that does not demonstrate that the church is not a true church it just demonstrates that they have allowed dysfuntional leadership to operate.
The very fact that false teachers, unscrupulous people and abusive leaders seek to gain position within a church would indicate that that church is part of the church of Jesus Christ. All the Biblical warnings that alert us to this danger say that these people will try to infiltrate the church of Jesus Christ. When they succeed why would we assume it cannot be a true church?
Complain about this comment
Puretruthseeker Ref 241:
I have tried to point out why you have a responsibility to be able to identify a true church in my last post. As to your father's statement about concepts and 8 year olds, it may contain some truth but it is not wholly true. There are many concepts that are beyond the grasp of the average 8 year old. I had a lecturer once who had great grasp on his subject but little ability to convey it to others in a simple way. This did not mean he did not understand it. Some have the capacity to make the complicated simple but not everyone does. In 2Pet3:16, Peter says that Paul's letters contain stuff that is hard to understand and consequently ignorant people distort it. According to your logic this would actually mean that Paul did not understand it himself and if this is true then it counters your argument about "men of God" today.
The scriptures that indicate God is beyond our understanding are Job 36:36; Is 40:28; Is 55:9. It is this last one where God himself is speaking. The previous one is a prophet speaking on God's behalf and the first one is the only man, among Job and his friends, who is not reproved for his understanding of God. However, the principle of the New Testament is that God can only be known by revelation. This is spelled out in 1Cor2 and Paul prays for the church in Ephesus to have a spirit of wisdom and revelation in order that they may get to know God better (Eph 1:17). You will find a very similar prayer in Col 1:9-10 and in Philippians 3:8-10 Paul expresses his longing to know Christ. A man's understanding without revelation from the spirit of God can never know God or Jesus Christ. And according to 1Cor 13:12 our knowledge in this life will only be partial at best.
Complain about this comment
grammarsgonetopot
I'm not long in, tired and going to bed. I will get back soon. I'm quite busy over the next few days. It may be Sunday before i can respond. Sorry.
Complain about this comment
Christianity & the Church can be like a metaphor of a tree, it can be described from the root to the branches to the bearing of fruit.
The Root is Christ.
The Tree is Christendom.
The Branches are Denominations.
The Fruit is their Spiritual Maturity.
Unfortunately, some Branches don't bare Fruit and even worse, some Wither away and fall off the Tree, while other's need to be cut off for a Time to make them grow even stronger so that Fruit will come.
This is the story of Christianity, starting right from the individual to the Church up to the so-called Denominations.
Complain about this comment
Ref 243 grammarsgonetopot
I firmly believe that the early churches had access to the true doctrine and therefore there would have been those among them who fully understood it. However, it is obvious that some members my have been less spiritually committed and, due their various backgrounds and ideologies, more eager to promote their own views. Hence, the need for correction and the re-emphasis of true doctrine.
The text I quote to illustrate structure and authority may be impossible to put together into a single method only because we don’t have a full understanding of the method. I’m sure the early Church had the full understanding. I’m also sure that if we had more scripture we would have more understanding. Surely, what we have in the New Testament isn’t all that was written by the early Apostles who “laboured in the field” and who would have been writing to other congregations different from Paul. However, if we take the case of Paul we can see more structure and authority in action. For instance, despite his miraculous conversion experience, Paul had to be baptised by Ananias who in turn obviously had authority. I presume that he was taught the true doctrine by Ananias or someone to whom Ananias referred him. Paul then retires to Arabia (Gal 1:17) possibly to undertake training of some sort. From here he leaves for Damascus to preach (Acts 9:19). After about 3 years he flees to Jerusalem where he is introduced to Peter and James by Barnabas. It was about 10 years after that when he undertook his first mission. Look at the way Saul/Paul was called to do that work in Acts13: 1-4. Note the conditions.
1. Prophets and teachers were there. v1
2. The Holy Ghost tells the prophets that he has called Paul. v2
3. When the prophets have fasted and prayed, they, “...laid their hands on them” and sent them away. v3
What this is telling me is that, quite simply, the Holy Ghost informs those with authority who is chosen and those that are chosen have hands lain upon them which I presume is to transfer authority.
We do not have a full account of how Stephen and Philips were given additional callings but must assume that they had authority to undertake such responsibility. If an account of them receiving the extra responsibility does not exist in the scriptures that we have available, it just means that it was not included in the scriptures for some reason. Whether that was God’s decision or man’s is unknown.
It is obvious that Paul’s reputation was difficult, initially, for him to be accepted by the early Saints - a bit like Paisley defecting to the Catholic Church. However, just in the way that the Holy Ghost informed the prophets to call Paul for responsibility, it could also have informed them of his claim as It did to Ananias. Remember, Jesus informed his disciples that he would send the Comforter which was the Holy Ghost ( John 14: 16-27). It is evident from what I have read and have cited above that the Holy Ghost, whom the world cannot receive, worked within the Church at that time. The Holy Ghost would teach all things (v26) such as who will do what, who will be what and just what is what concerning doctrine. I suppose if I had lived in those days, been a righteous member of the “kingdom” and wanted to know if Paul’s claim was valid, I would have prayed about it and the Holy Ghost would have revealed it to me.
Why leaders, such as Diotrophes, did not recognise John can maybe be understood if that congregation or local jurisdiction were in apostasy. I don’t really know. What I do know is that the Holy Ghost must have been guiding the members who were enduring but not those who had “become bewitched” (Gal. 1:6), “turned aside” (1Tim. 4:1), “given heed to seducing spirits” (1Tim. 4:1) and followed those, “who say they are apostles and are not” (Rev.2:2).
I’m of the opinion that prophets are essential to lead the Church. How would they be appointed? Only God can call prophets. However, it appears that the Holy Ghost would play a major role in confirming their selection to other members who had the right authority. This brings me back to my original point; that the current Christian churches do not have the authority as a continuous unbroken line since the early New Testament churches.
I agree, “... that it matters a whole lot to find out what that church is...”, but it is also important not to be part of any group who claim to be Christ’s Church when every thing about them suggest they are not; other than the fact that they use parts of holy scripture, say they worship Him, and claim to obey His every word. A wee bit like The Cavern Beatles that I referred to in a previous post. There is no recognised Christian group that adequately resembles the early Church, never mind looks like an exact copy. But even a copy would not be sufficient. Christ’ Church has to be real or no “perfect spotless church ... (can be presented) ...to the Father”. NT Christians did not have to concern themselves about identifying the hallmarks of the real church and get into it – they were in it. We do.
The 3 strands that existed at the end of the first century, according to some scholars, were; Jewish Christian, Pauline Christian and Gnosticism. Others reckon that Marcionism and possibly Montanism were other strands. Given that there was possibly 5 strands it is plausible to expect a further proliferation of strands by the time of Constantine. Which strand did Constantine embrace? It didn’t really matter. It is my view that if he embraced the true strand, he changed it. If he didn’t and the true strand still existed, it didn’t survive very long. Constantine wouldn’t have allowed it. No doubt he obliterated the competition. Therefore, the Reformation was pointless spiritually but may have been important politically. As for Luther; now there wasn’t a man of God. To think, that when I was younger I though well of that obviously godless man.
Off course, asking questions leads to consequences that we have not foreseen. But, answers never come before the question is formed and we must be brave enough to ask the questions despite the consequences when we are trying to establish truth. As I have asked myself and others questions, answers have come from a variety of sources. That’s how I come to realise that there is no unbroken line of authority to represent God, there is not the same structure existing like that of the NT Church and there is no agreement among the Christian churches today on what constitutes true doctrine.
You agree there was structure and authority in the NT Church which I presume you don’t see replicated today. You also agree that there was division, immorality, false doctrine, and poor leadership. If people became unworthy, due to unrepentant sin and trying to incorporate their previous beliefs for example, would they still have been able to maintain the attendance of the Holy Ghost that Jesus had promised them? Somehow or other, I doubt it. It is quite possibly this reason that they fell into error. Now, if these congregations had lost the Spirit and had erred, it is here that I see the only similarity between NT churches and the churches of today.
Off course, no church leader should be unaccountable but if they are that does not necessarily demonstrate that they are true leader in the true church; it just means they are not a dysfunctional leader for the type of group they lead. The true Church would not permit dysfunctional leaders to lead as they would be removed the same way they were selected; via the Holy Ghost to someone with more responsibility within the chain of Authority. Failing that they would have to abdicate and go some other way; possibly like they did in the first century.
I can’t accept your last argument. False teachers, unscrupulous people and abusive leaders will seek to gain position wherever they can in order to further their ambition and feed their lusts. I find them in all walks of life as I have mentioned in previous posts. False teachers etc. find it easier to infiltrate groups in which they can appear to have superior knowledge, seem more convincing, claim special status or look the “part”. When they succeed we are less likely to assume it is THE true Church that they have infiltrated than the contrary.
It is too late. THE true Church has already been infiltrated in the past and may not exist anymore. Maybe Jesus Himself will have to restore it again before He can present it to His Father.
Complain about this comment
Ref 244 grammarsgonetopot
I will respond to the above reference when time permits. Cheers for now.
Complain about this comment
Regarding previous posts... really, I don't want to enter into any private debates, "BUT" concerning post 247, you stated, that the Reformation was pointless Spiritually, how can you say such a thing, this clearly sounds to me like Roman Catholic propaganda.
Down through the years of History a Sovereign God has too interfere in the affairs of Mankind to stop them sliding into deeper darkness.
Now, even his own chosen people needed His Son's help to guide them back from the blindness that had gradually clogged their eyes.
This was the case during the dark ages of history, many Reformers were raised up by God to stop the slide off much APOSTASY and Darkness which was around from the time of AD 90 and even before that, right up to them, even until now.
Lastly, to say that the reformation was a political thing is totally wrong.
Complain about this comment
Ref 244 grammarsgonetopot
I may have a responsibility to identify a true church, however, if I have not yet found it I can still abstain from those that I have no faith, confidence or trust in. I will concede the 8 year old idea. I still think for the most part there is mileage in it though. The reason I chose 8 years old is that it’s generally regarded as the age of accountability.
I think that Peter is referring to some things which are spiritually difficult to understand only by the spiritually unlearned and unstable who wrest these things unto their own destruction. Paul definitely understood such things as did Peter; as did all the worthy members. I say this because I could quote you numerous scriptures in support of my view; a few will suffice I hope. Paul in his letter to the Romans in Ch15:14 tells them that he is persuaded of them that they are filled with all knowledge and he wasn't referring to evolution here. In his first letter to Timothy he says that, “...God our Saviour: will have all men to be saved, and to come onto the knowledge of the truth” (2:3-4). Then in his second letter to Timothy he describes apostasy in which describes those will have a, “form of godliness ...Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” (3:5,7)
With regarding scripture indicating God is beyond our understanding, Job 36:36 does not exist. However, if you are referring to v29, all this is saying is; do we understand the spreading of the clouds or the noise of his tabernacle. The answer is that I’m not quite sure what the noise of his tabernacle is referring to, but I understand the spreading of the clouds slightly better than an 8 year old but not nearly as well as God. Isaiah is speaking poetically when he says, “...there is no searching His understanding. For “searching” put fathoming and it makes perfect sense to me. When I was younger, I was able to know and understand my father but I was unable to search or fathom his understanding until I “walked in his boots”. In Isaiah 55:9 the Lord is not saying that we cannot have a true and proper understanding of him. He is just saying that at every level he is on a much higher plane than us, his children. This does not mean that His nature cannot be understood or His relationship with His Father and the Holy Ghost – which is what this is all about. I firmly believe that the Trinity is a man-made concept constructed by those who Paul warned who would wrest these things to their destruction.
Off course God can only be known by revelation so I can dispense with the references. However, revelation only comes through the Holy Ghost. As there is no real consensus of the knowable range of God’s nature among the groups who refer to themselves as “Christian” we can only conclude that the Holy Ghost does not operate in them or for that matter in the Catholic church either. (Happy now, Johntheebap?). I fully agree with your remaining comments in the paragraph.
Ok, who said that when the questions are answered, the conversation stops? I think you will agree that we are somewhat clearer to what is essential for a true Church of God. It should have Prophets, the Holy Ghost should attend all those with authority and those striving to know God and Jesus; and it should teach the doctrine of salvation.
Complain about this comment
Ref 246 and 249 johntheebap
3 things
1. It's not a private debate.
2. It's not any type of propaganda.
3. I will get back to you when I have time.
Thanks for your comments.
Complain about this comment
J the B
Your tree thing. Actually, Jesus was the tree (vine) and his followers were the branches. But well done on slipping in 'denominations.' What nonsense.
Roman Catholic propaganda? Not those evil Papists again! In those three words it is you who take us back to a dark past of suspicion, fear and mistrust.
And if the Reformation in my country (Scotland) wasnt political, you'd better come over here and rewrite our history for us.
Complain about this comment
Ref 246 and 249 johntheebap
Regarding the validity of the Reformation you should read a bit wider. Thanks for your knowledge romejellybean.
I have attacked the Reformation and the formation of the Catholic church equally. I must stress that I have no problem with Protestants (I was reared on the Shankill by parents that had as many Catholic friends as Protestants) or Catholics but I do take issue with their leaders. The leaders are the ones who perpetrate any system of beliefs. They are the ones who hold the responsibility and accountability; and have a duty to ensure they are not maintaining something that may be wrong. A bit like how scienctific methods test hypothesis, church systems should be tried to see if they are true.
It never has been the pursuit of leadership to test truth. In fact who do you think said “What harm could it do if a man told a good lusty lie in a worthy cause and for the sake of the Christian Churches?” (Lenz: Briefwechsel, vol. 1, page 373). None other than your friend who help reform the church – Martin Luther. You might smile at that. I don’t.
His views on the Jew is hardly Godly. He says, “If I had to baptise a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words `I baptise thee in the name of Abraham'” (Detailed references given in Grisar, “Luther”, vol. v, p. 413)
“We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them” is his charitable advice.
Set fire to their synagogues and schools; and what will not burn, heap earth over it so that no man may see a stone or relic of them forever.
Pull down and destroy their houses since they perpetrate the same nefarious things in them as in their schools. Pack them all under one roof or stable, like the gypsies, that they may know that they are not lords and masters in our land as they boast.
Deprive them of all their prayer-books.
Forbid their rabbis henceforth to teach.
Deprive them of the right to move about the country.
Forbid them the business of usury, and take from them all their belongings.
Hand the strong young Jews of both sexes flail, axe, mattock, spade, distaff, and spindle; and make them work for their bread in the sweat of their brow, like all the children of Adam. Confiscate their property and drive them out of the country. (W53, 525 abridged). Now you know where National Socialism and Hitler got their ideas from. In fact Hitler was his No.1 fan.
His ideas about women and marriage would put the most debauched and chauvinistic to shame. “After a rape of nuns which took place on the night of Holy Saturday, 1523, Luther calls the citizen Koppe, who organised the exploit, a `holy and blessed robber'”.
Luther himself has several nuns living with him. “But he does not intend to marry”. In November, 1524, he writes: “Not as though I do not feel my flesh and my sex, for I am neither of wood nor of stone, but I have no inclination to marry.” In April, 1525, he refers to himself as “a famous lover” who has “three wives” but “no intention whatsoever to marry”. (Janssen: “History of the German People”, vol.16, page 137).
You think that’s bad, look what he says about God possibly in one of him drunken rants, He accuses god of being “a master armed with a stick”. “God did mischievously blind me”; “God often acts like a madman”; “God paralyses the old and blinds the young and thus remains master”; I look upon God no better than a scoundrel”; “God is stupid” (“Table Talk”, No. 963, W1, 48) He excused his own adultery—to quote merely one more example—by the teachings of Christ. “Christ”, says Luther, “committed adultery first of all with the woman at the well about whom Saint John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying: `Whatever has he been doing with her?” Secondly, with Mary Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even Christ, who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died” (“Table Talk”, 1472) (W2, 107).
So, when God “interferes” to stop the slide into darkness He raises up men like Martin Luther?
Maybe you will say, what about John Calvin? Well what about him? Maybe you should google Michael Servetus and you will discover that Calvin had the biggest hand in his murder and all for questioning the Trinity of all things. To burn the man at the stake and prolong his pain with “green wood” is not the act of a man raised by God. Calvin “ran” the Council at Geneva. Funny that he also was political and “spiritual”. Oh yes, he had an enemy, Jacques Gruet, beheaded on a trumped charge of treason and Jerome Bolsec banished becaused he didn’t agree with “predestination”.
Then there was John Knox. Sure you can google a critique of him too so as I don’t spoil your surprise.
If God raised up men to turn mankind back to truth wouldn’t He have chosen worthy men?
The Reformation was political. You can google that too.
Complain about this comment
Interesting turn in the discussion.
Theologically speaking I am what might be called 'reformed', through and through, but the Reformation was political, and every time the church of Jesus Christ has aligned itself with the state, or tried to form a state, any state, it has been an unmitigated disaster. Oh, and it was called Christendom; sorry about that.
Just read any 17th century history, or any church history.
And the Prods were/are no better than the Catholics and when either Protestants or Catholics fail to be Christians, then we might as well pack up and go home, or join Helio and his crew! (RJB, I was going to use another term for Catholic, but given the moderation policy on here recently I thought better of it. Whatever you're doing BBC, it's working! Who won the league last year anyway, Rangers or Celtic, that's what really counts, isn't it!)
And here, RJB, you're quoting Leonard Ravenhill, what's that all about?
And em, difficult for a Protestant to say (!), but, the Roman Catholic Priest (shock horror!) is right, Jesus is the tree. RJB, are you reading your bible again
Complain about this comment
Firstly, I was brought up and lived in ARDOYNE for many years and witnessed many evil, horrible things done on my Family, Friends, Neighbours who suffered at the hands off the ira, because of these things I became very bitter, which resulted in me joining various organizations which were very seriously anti-catholic which fed my deep hatred for catholics, until "CHRIST" came into my sorry, sinful, life and took away my EVIL BIGOTY and gave me LOVE, UNDERSTANDING, and TRUST for those who lived on the other side off the barricade.
So to say, that I am taking people back to the dark ages is again seriously wrong, it was history that coined the word, not me.
The only sinless person who was never in reproach was CHRIST THE LORD, but having said this, God still uses many things, such as, Animals, Mammals and yes SINFUL MEN! like Martin Luther & others, including non-reformers.
The problem is that people try and tie in certain advents of history to take away from a interference coming from the hand of a SOVEREIGN GOD to bring people back to their Spiritual senses NOT the other way about.
Lastly, regarding the metaphor that I made up, it has no reference to JOHN, chapter 15 and verses 1 to 10 so that was inaccurate as well.
Complain about this comment
J the B
Thanks for that last post and for sharing a bit of 'you' with us. Here's a bit of me.
I am totally frustrated at the Catholic Church. And there is a huge inner battle going on with us at the moment. Those who would drag us back to the unenlightened dark ages have the edge at the moment.
But there are millions of catholics across the globe who are starting to make their voices heard. Those who care more about love than law, mercy than sacrifice, forgiveness than retribution. These people are not "Roman Catholics" (or P...s, Peter!! Lol!)) They are your brothers and sisters with the sames faults and failings and struggles as you. As we say, "We just went to different schools together..."
As puretruthseeker says above, our leadership have let us all down. (That is not to excuse the man on the street for the decisions he took though.)
Here's a way to find out whether a person is fit for church leadership - does he get down on his knees and wash the feet of his followers? (I'm not talking about the theatre we do in our churches on Holy Thursday.) I mean, in life, is he a man who makes his home with the poor? Does he make the last first, and the first last? Does he consider himself the least? Is he a man of forgiveness? Does he include rather then exclude?
There is your authentic, authoritative church leader.
There is your stone which becomes the cornerstone.
Complain about this comment
jtb
Recent posts demonstrate once again that communication, especially on a forum such as this, is fraught with danger and potential misunderstanding, your post 225 certainly helps alleviate some of this.
There is, of course a bigot of some sort in each of us, if we're not Protestants hating Catholics, we'll be fundamentalists hating liberals, liberals hating fundamentalists, or simply social and educational elitists. Each of us has an 'other' we don't want to be because they make us feel better about ourselves, it's basically self righteousness, and we're all culpable.
And yes you are right, it isn't our performance, ability or niceness which makes us usable or acceptable to God, it's something else which is being discussed on another thread and which leads to what RJB has described as 'authentic'.
But, the church, in it's weird and wonderful history, has flirted (and flirted isn't really a strong enough word) too often with power and sometimes one of the only differences that I see between Protestants and Catholics is that we Prods do, 'lots of middle sized fish in lots of different small ponds', while the Catholics have managed to stick with, 'one big fish and a good few middle sized helper fish in one big pond'. But we've all forgotten that we're supposed to delight in being small fish serving other fish. (Oh and RJB, I wasn't thinking P....s, it was much worse than that! Unless you were thinking of two words, that would be bad!! And BTW it was Rangers, wasn't it!!!)
The trouble is this, it's about justice and mercy and Jesus. In fact it's all about this and it's always about this.
So apologies if I came across as a bit dismissive, just goes to show that none of us on here really knows the other.
Complain about this comment
Peter
Not really sure who won the league last year. It seems to have slipped my mind.
By the way, (re the name calling) we have a great way of beating the moderators on our blog sites over here. If you are annoyed at someone and, eh, 'wish to take issue' with them, you just call the person a Shareen.
(Shareen Nanjianni is a well known television presenter over here.)
Complain about this comment
RJB
I couldn't remember who won the league last year either, I had to google it!
However Tyrone are playing Cork today in the All Ireland Senior GAA Football Semi Final and a friend of mine is off to see it. Being a Protestant from Co. Armagh I've no idea who he'll be supporting.
Complain about this comment
johntheebap at least you dont hate catholics anymore. You just need to know there is no such thing as sin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TKerWEQono
I am off to enjoy some 'sin'.
Complain about this comment
260 pnj
I hope you enjoy your 'sin'. Remember, however, that every action produces a consequence. When we do 'good' acts, good consequences usually follow. When we do 'bad' acts, bad consequences always follow. Those consequences may at times affect someone else, however, they always affect us negatively in some form or another.
Humour is good. I am sure that our creator has the best sense of humour and He will see the funny side. Be good.
Complain about this comment
post 260,
If there is no SIN, then there's, no such a thing as right & wrong.
If there is no SIN, then there's, no such a thing as love & hate.
If there is no SIN, then there's, no such a thing as honesty & deceit.
If there is no SIN, then there's, no such a thing as kindness & greed.
If there is no SIN, then there's, no such a thing as me & you.
Complain about this comment
johntheebap there is no sin. The Adam and eve story is a myth.
Complain about this comment
Re: Post 263
No sin. You must be right after all the world is so peaceful with man living in harmoney with his neighbour.
Take another look at the world, there is sin, man is sinful and the fact you are denying sin proves you are a sinner!
Complain about this comment
PNJ
You cant win. Only the real Messiah would deny that he IS the Messiah...
LoB.
Complain about this comment
princessnewsjunkie
Surely you can only state that you do not believe there is no sin. Just because you think it and say it, doesn’t make it so.
Same goes for Adam and Eve.
Some say that the Jewish holocaust, inflicted by the Nazi’s, never happened. How offensive, unfair, hurtful and despicable this must sound to a survivor or loved one who suffered a loss. You probably think you comment has no significance but everything has significance. Let me explain.
Those of us, who know there is a God, believe that sin is the breaking of universal laws. These laws are the laws that God Himself is governed by. If God were to break one of these laws, He would cease to be God.
At one time Adam and Eve lived in a state of innocence and perfect adherence to such laws. As every day went by everything was in order and perfect harmony. However, they both had a puzzle to solve. God had given them 2 specific instructions. Firstly, they were told to be fruitful and multiply - or have a family. Secondly, they were told not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We do not know how long they tried to work out how they could multiply; but it may have taken some time. Eventually, they must have come to the right conclusion that they would never be able to keep one law without breaking the other.
It could have been the maternal instinct that is in Eve and all women that decided, if children were to be born of this family, that the law must be broken by 'eating of the tree of knowledge...' And this is what they did.
When the law was broken it was a sin - a universal law - broken in a perfect environment. That wrong caused an imbalance in a perfectly balanced world and allowed death to enter it. It also allowed Adam and Eve to bring the spirit children of our Father in Heaven into the world. However, from that point onward death became a certainty for all life-forms including the earth itself.
At this point disease spread and mutated in its many forms. God, however, in His infinite wisdom understood that this would happen and it was part of His plan. He understood that if His children were to inhabit this earth for a reasonably short space of time that death would be necessary or else the billions of us who have been born on this world would have inhabit this planet, which had began to 'die' also, in an imperfect state forever. Because of the 'fall' of God's children it was necessary that a solution was required to undo all the sin or law breaking. Again, this was all part of the plan. God wanted His spirit children to become mortal, be proven - start to learn obedience to eternal laws - that we may become like Him someday - immortal and obedient.
Right from the start it was known that a saviour would be required in order to pay for the wrong that would be committed by all those who would come to this earth and live their lives and break universal laws; because it had now become the nature of all His children to do so. That saviour was known from before the start of our time here on this planet. In fact He organised this planet and knew that He would be called upon at sometime in the future to suffer for every wrong or law broken or sin that every one would ever commit. That saviour was Jesus the Christ. He was beaten and crucified by those who hated Him who were unaware that He loved them. Prior to this He went into the Garden of Gethsemane where the most noble act that has ever taken place in the history of the world happened.
The first inhabitants of the world, Adam and his wife Eve, existed, initially, in a state of innocence and obedience. When they broke the law for the first time, they entered into a world of knowledge and disobedience, which is our condition now. However, this was necessary as a halfway stage, as it were, before they could reach a state of knowledge and obedience - or the quality of existence that God enjoys. However, a God had to pay a penalty in order for the broken laws, which would have an everlasting effect on each of us, to be satisfied. That penalty was paid by our God, the Son of the Father of our spirits. In order that the everlasting effect of our wrongdoing upon us could be cancelled out, He had to atone for those sins. He had to do it in our behalf. We did not have the capacity to do it for ourselves.
It was in the Garden when He was alone that He took upon Himself all the sins of the world on condition of our repentance. It was there that He suffered beyond all human power to endure. It was there that He sweat great drops of blood from every pore. It was there that His anguish was so great that He asked if it were possible that the agony could be removed but insisted, "not my will, but thine, be done". It was there that an angel came to strengthen Him in His greatest trial. Many have been crucified and the torment and pain is extreme. But, only one, the Man who had God as His Father, could bow beneath the burden of unimaginable grief and sorrow that awful night. This He did, not for himself, but for you and me.
For those who wish to live with God, it is necessary that we go into His presence and His environment in a state free from the degenerate legacy that the breaking of universal laws create and which are attach to our spirits. We, of ourselves, are unable to do it. We cannot shake off the feelings that make us unhappy, the ill feelings we harbour, the pains that wrack our bodies, the feelings of low self worth, the grudges we hold, the injustices we inflict, the ill-will we spread and so on. In order to remove the result of this sin from us, a God needed to be sacrificed or we could never exist in the company of such exquisite beings.
Through Adam sin entered the World and all those who have lived in it have been affected by it by being party to it, save one, Jesus Christ who was sinless - or the one who never broke a universal law. His Father was God and because of His Sonship and spotlessness He was the only one able to do what He did. He was Jesus Christ our Saviour who paid the price for that sin on our behalf, allowing us the opportunity to enter into the company of God at some future time.
As well as all of this He provided us all with the gift of living forever, not as dismembered spirits but as beings with spirits and bodies united, never to be seperated again. This He did when He gave His life on the cross. His life was such that it could not be taken from Him. Even the extrusion of blood from every pore, which must have been like he was in an oil-press, couldn't cause Him death. (Gethsamene is interpreted "oil-press") He then took His body up again and came back 3 days later to show us that He had paid the price for the broken law and satisfied all the demands of justice and so He had overcome death for us too.
It hurts me, therefore, to have someone say there is no sin because, although I can never quite comprehend the price that was paid, I do KNOW that He, who I love, suffered on my behalf and yours for the wrong that we have inflicted. Please have some consideration for the feelings I have and that He has for you.
Complain about this comment
What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Complain about this comment
See, I told you he was. Now will you all...............
Complain about this comment
#ROSIE#
I understand that the pastor from Hull was speaking at PCN
On the the Peoples Church Falkirk website they have listed PCN as "Friends" but
no reference to WWMT
Supermac will be "MAD"
Complain about this comment
I understand that one of the infamous "disappeared" from WW has now appeared and was at the Monday night prayer meeting praying for the sick and has also been reported to have been at WW during the day. I wonder is he going to be making more of an appearance at WW???!!!!????
Complain about this comment
post263.
To Princess, you say that Adam & Eve was a myth.
Now I think THAT the reason why you say such a thing, is, because the main stream view off Christianity is, that Adam & Eve were the only 2 persons upon a young earth and from that relationship came the whole Human Race by Incest.
This in my view is only an interpretation.
In my opinion the Bible teaches two races upon the earth during that time, firstly...there are the son's of God (not Angels) and then the son's of men, where cain got his wife from in the land of Nod, if you think about the Big Brother TV show, you see people living together as housemates confined and we can watch them via our TV sets as things develop, while at the same time, there's a great big world going on outside of Big Brother.
The point is, we can watch the Big Brother household in Eden via the Genesis account viewed from the Bible unfold, were Adam & Eve fall into SIN.
Again the next one is Noah and the regional flood.
Complain about this comment
ref 272 johnthebap
I really do believe that Adam and Eve lived and they had lots of sons and daughters. Remember, they lived for over 900 years. Brothers and sisters marrying would not have been regarded as wrong as they were almost genetically pure. Don't compromise your beliefs for anybody. What is true is true. princessnewsjunkie will probably find something funny on YouTube thinking that it make us look ridiculous. Let her I say.
Complain about this comment
270 #ALL4JESUS#
Please ID the "missing" Pastor/Person
Complain about this comment
post 272,
I clearly understand what you are saying about Adam & Eve having many Children and would accept that, BUT all I'm saying is that their was two sets of tribes living upon the earth at that time...the son's of Elohim & the son's of Men, even in Genesis chapter 6, it is recorded for us that they had started to inter-marry, which at first began with cain moving to Nod, and Seth was the first Evangelist to cause Men to call upon the Lord.
The way I see it is, that the Human race was NOT started through any form of incest OR for that matter so-called "Angels" coming down and having SEX with the women of the earth which made Elohim very mad BUT it was the fact that the son's of Elohim were putting the very lineage of Christ under threat, which would result in Bible prophecy not being fulfilled.
lastly, the young earth can be better understood in the context of how old is the jewish people "approximately 5770" jewish years, but the Earth is older.
Complain about this comment
Adam and Eve lived for over 900 years. Angels coming down from heaven and having sex with women. The lineage of Christ being put under threat.
Please come to my church. An angel told me that everyone has to put £500 in the plate every Sunday.
Complain about this comment
Look, I don't think it should be a sin, just for saying "Jehovah"
Complain about this comment
Where is Rosie?
SMARTBIGGEORGE 273 - think it might be Pastor Fittis
Complain about this comment
Rosie may have gone to PCM
Is "Pastor" Frittas = still a Pastor and with what church?? WWMT?
Complain about this comment
#CORRECTION#
Rosie may have gone to PCN
Iunderstand that PCN would like to buy the old Leslie Hale site on the
Larne line
I suspect that Supermac would have liked to have built WWMT on this site
He was at he the Leslie Hale meeting in the Landsdown Court Hotel Antrim
Road Belfast
Complain about this comment
post 275.
A year in Biblical times has not the same time scale length as a year today, it was much lesser, so to say that someone lived for 969 years doesn't mean their life-span covered this actual period that we know today.
Princess, if you talk about the names of God in a way that is blasphemy, DON'T BROTHER TALKING TO ME.
Complain about this comment
correction... bother.
Complain about this comment
Making it worse? How can it be worse? Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!
Complain about this comment
ref 274 johntheebap
Adam and Eve were at one time the only two individuals living on this planet. If there were two tribes, as you say, they were the progeny of the father and mother of the human race. Now, it would have been remiss of God not to have given Adam instructions how he should live his life. This would have required the Lord's Church to have been established with authority, structure, doctrine, etc for the benefit of those who chose to adhere to the Lord's counsel. Those who chose not to avail of the Lord's counsel would have 'done their own thing'. As the scriptures provide us with scant information, it is impossible to be certain about anything. However, It is as good a guess as any other to conclude that what was happening in chapter 6 was that the sons of God were marrying outside of the Church. Therefore, they were cutting themselves off from the blessings. Paul warned the Corinthians, 'Be ye not unequally yoked together...' Perhaps wanted them to know that religious differences are fundamental differences. This is just the way I see it
Ref 275 romejellybaby
Adam lived for 930 years actually. Gen. 5:3,4
Ref 276 princessnewsjunkie
I don't believed you have sinned
Ref 280 johntheebap
A year is a year. It is the time it takes the earth to make one revolution around the sun. Methuselah lived 969 revolutions of the earth around the sun.
Complain about this comment
grammarsgonetopot
It's been a week since I heard from you.
Have you gone to pot?
Complain about this comment
SMART
Ref #278
He is the Senior Pastor at Ballysillan Elim.
Has been reported to have been at WW meetings during the week and reported to be up praying for the sick at the Monday night prayer meeting in WW.
In ref to Rosie, I think their identify might have been discovered.
Complain about this comment
PTS
"Adam lived for 930 years actually." Gen 9, 3-4.
Actually, no he didnt. No one has lived for 930 years.
In fact, there was no such person. Tis mythology.
Complain about this comment
Firstly.. I was referring to the oldest person in the Bible NOT Adam.
Again, if we say that Methuselah was 969 years old according to our culture and calendar months, then you would be very correct BUT on the other hand, which calendar was used to determine the time concept of a so-called year.
The truth of the matter is, its open for debate, yes, I would agree up to a certain point that mankind lived a wee bit longer than usual but to built a doctrine out of it is going to far, as it is filled with problems.
Now the other point is, the BIBLE never teaches incest in creation or for that matter any sort of polygamy, YES it happen, over and over BUT to say that God was in favour of it is wrong.
Lastly, when we read of family genealogies in the Bible a stepfather is also classed as a literal father even though they have no blood connection, and concerning "many wives" this does not mean that a man had been married to 30 girls all at once BUT if he put away his wife and married another, he still had a responsibility to support her and the children and all those others whom he had previously put away, but technically speaking they were still called his wives.
Complain about this comment
J the B
Lets cut through all the minutiae. Why is it so important to you and others that the Bible be literally true?
Are you worried that if you admit that some parts are clearly untrue/contradictory, that it calls into question all of it?
I have no problem in looking at the Bible, drawing from it what is inspired, credible, beautiful, meaningful etc.. and allowing it to influence my life.
But to watch you jump through hoops to find explanations for things which are 1. unimportant or irrelevant in the greater scheme of things, or 2. plainly untrue, makes you look silly.
I think you do a disservice to Christianity when you make such arguments.
Complain about this comment
#Hi Rosie
Are you going to the opening of PCN at Mallusk with your Husband
Pastor ?
If you need directions or transport please advise me
I had a look this morning and everything is "Looking VERY GOOD"
I suspect it will hold C 100O people Will it be big enough?????
Complain about this comment
post 288,
I honestly don't know what you are on about and even worse you really don't read my posts the way I read yours, you keep on reading things into my posts, which are clearly not there.
You say that I do Christianity a disservice because I offered a different interpretation from the main stream school of thought.
What I have said does NOT in any way undermine fundamentalism as I believe that the King James Version IS the word of God.
It is some off the so-called interpretations that can be questioned, such, which have been propagated on this blog.
Lastly, the Bible does not need me to stick up for it, as the WORD OF GOD lasts forever, you & I don't.
Complain about this comment
J the B
Yip, we clearly dont understand each other. I do not say that you undermine fundamentalism. You ARE fundamentalist. You promote fundamentalism.
You do Christianity a disservice, not because you offer a different interpretation from the mainstream school of thought (whatever that may be), but because you make ludicrous statements and claims about the Bible.
The latest of which is that now you say a particular version of the Bible is the Word of God.
Complain about this comment
#Rosie# THE PEOPLES CHURCH NEWTOWNABBEY
If you are coming to the opening at Mallusk. Please come early for a seat
I would not like you to have to stand for the complete service
Do you think Supermac will go to the opening???????
Complain about this comment
#285# #ALL4JESUS#
Will you ID Rosie???????
Complain about this comment
POST 291.
I could really say the same thing about you and your belief's and could even go as far in saying that some of your belief's are not even from the Bible, but that's what you want me to do, no chance!, if you want more from me concerning the Word of God just look up my youtube account 169000, ps, no reference to the battle of the boyne.
Complain about this comment
J the B
Dont confuse my beliefs with the beliefs and practices of the particular christian denomination into which I was born and brought up. I am my own man. If you have theological difficulties with them, take it up with them.
Complain about this comment
post 294
John, do you believe the KJV is inspired? and if so whIch of the KJV versions do you consider inspired? 1611 or a later update.
It also sounds by your Gen comments your a believer in Willaim Branhams teachings, is that true?
-j
Complain about this comment
Post 295.
Thats fine with me, I've really no desire to do so, I am also in one sense the same, as I no longer belong to my past religion which I was born into.
ps... it was you that said, we don't understand each other, not me.
Complain about this comment
The received text or the textus receptus or also called the byzantine text, which also can be called the majority text.
NO! William Branham was a dangerous person who said that christ had returned in the desert.
Complain about this comment
Does anyone know if Terry Fitas is coming back to the whitewell? and has he left Ballysillan?
-J
Complain about this comment
I think what is going on is that TERRY FITTIS is trying to get his way back into Whitewell again.
Complain about this comment
Why is it that some people cannot accept what the scriptures say? Is it because they dont believe what they read or because they are unable to square it intellectually? It seems to me that there are too many people posting here who read 'trendy' commentaries rather than read the scriptures, having prayed for the Holy Ghost to bear witness to the truth of what is read.
If we read the scriptures and are obedient to what they say, ie, have faith; we don't need someones fanciful opinion. We come to know they are truer than any commentary. Unless we have faith (easiest definition definition = obey God's words) we can never come to an understanding of the truth. Romans 10:7 sates, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". If you don't obey God's word and you don't have faith, don't call yourself a "Christian".
Now, if you don't believe in Adam and Eve, you will hardly believe in Cain or Able. If you don't believe that these two sons of Adam and Eve lived then you will hardly believe what John said in 1John 3:12 or Paul in Heb. 11:4. Here are 2 Apostles confirming they lived. But then what would they know anyway, they didn't have intellectual commentries to read. Suppose you think I'm going to say Noah lived back in the day? You are right, so did Paul - Heb. 11:7.
Now, you are going to say that that doesn't prove that Adam lived? He did live. He is mentioned by name 30 times in the Bible. Paul mentions him in Rom. 5:14, 1Cor 15:45, and 1Tim. 2:13-14. Jude mentions him too in v14. Above all Luke traces the genealogy of Jesus back to Adam. If Adam and Eve were not the first humans beings, the Bible cannot be trusted. More importantly, to deny Adam is to deny Jesus.
I'm going to start a campaign to trust the scriptures and stop intellectually rationalising them to the point of confusion. Adam lived to 930 and then he died. That's the truth.
Complain about this comment
And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
hg
Complain about this comment
JTB - It is obvious that your metaphor (246) has nothing to do with John 15 - it just thoroughly unhelful when you take a biblical methaphor and then change it and expect people to treat it as credible.
Complain about this comment
JTB - Post 280 - Do you have any sort of argument for why you think the text of your KJV does not mean what it says? You didn't answer the question you were asked about which version of the KJV you accepted as inspired (298). You apparently reffered to texts that you accept - except the Textus Receptus and the Byzantine Text are not the same thing and these would leave you with a very small Bible. Are their Hebrew texts you would accept as well - Masoretic perhaps? So which version of the KJV do you accept as inspired and does it make any difference anyway if you are free to arbitrarily decide it doesn't mean what it says?
Complain about this comment
RJB - You have no problem in looking at the Bible and drawing from it what is inspired, credible, beautiful and meaningful (288). Can we all do the same thing and what are the principles that we should use to do this? What should we do then with the stuff that we consider uninspired, incredible, ugly and meaningless? Will the principles you give us enable us all to agree on this stuff?
There is art, litreature, and music that people choose to consider, inspired, credible, beautiful and meaningful and they allow it to influence their lives. Is the Bible just the same as these other works?
Complain about this comment
grammarsgonetopot
I responded to your posts Ref 243 and 244 at Ref 247 and 250 respectively. Just in case you didn't look that far back and thought that I didn't take the time to answer you.
Ref 302 princessnewsjunkie.
You can talk the funny talk but can you walk the funny walk?
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Would whoever chose to try to censor my last comment have the integrity to explain why? No? I thought not. You are a cowardly hypocrite - shame on you.
I sincerely hope the moderator has the sense to see what is happening.
Complain about this comment
Puretruthseeker - My apologies for going to pot! I did check back over the following 36 hours and everything had gone silent so I have not looked at Will & Testament until this morning.
My apologies also for typing the wrong reference. It should have read Job 36:26.
It seems from post 301 that your are absolutely certain that you have got truth. If you do start a campaign to trust the scriptures I will join it. However, you argue in an earlier post that if we had more scriptures (you assert that the apostles must have written more) then we would know more perfectly. The difficulty is how would we validate them as scripture? Whose authority would you accept in that role and with your view of early church history, on what authority do you accept the Canon of Scripture as you do?
I accept the authority of scripture, therefore I do not make my arguments from the silence of scripture or the material that we do not have. I do not assume (from silence) that Stephen and Philip must have received additional callings - why should I? In Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus gives a specific commission to his disciples. In it they are commanded to teach those they disciple to obey everything Jesus taught them. This would include teaching them to obey the instruction of Matthew 28:19-20. This gives direction to all believers to make disciples and to baptise. Why, if Stephen & Philip had been properly taught would they think they needed any additional calling. The calling to what they did is explicit in the commission of Matthew 28:19-20 and it is applicable to all believers if you trust the scriptures!
I believe that there is a clear line of authority going back to Jesus and you will find it in verse 18 of Matthew 28. This is an assertion of authority that allows those who believe to pursue this commission. How do I identify the things that Jesus taught? I read his words and I read the instruction of those to whom he gave authority. My trust is not in some line of institutional authority that remains unbroken since the time of Christ my trust is in what he taught and what those he entrusted taught.
You state clearly your confidence in the scriptures and in the ability of the Holy Ghost to lead us into all truth. I absolutely agree. It seems to me that much of what Jesus was seeking to convey to his disciples immediately prior to his death was that they would not be left alone but that he would send the Holy Ghost to be with them (John 14 -16). Why do you not trust the command of scripture then to assemble with other believers.
You have stated your scepticism about people's desire for power and your opinion that the true church may not exist. That is especially harsh on those who are asembling together in persecuted countries where their lives are endangered. They have no desire for power, just mutual support and encouragement and all who visit speak of the humility and servanthood of leaders in those situations. If the true church does not exist then Jesus statement in Matt 16:18 is wrong. Building is a progressive work. Jesus could only restore to his original intention something that already exists.
What is essential to church:
1) People who have faith and obey God's word (I read that in post 301)
2) Because they obey God's word they will meet with other believers for mutual support and edification to live out the obedience in community that is required by the "one another" statements of the New Testament.
Complain about this comment
I am new to this blog and came on because of some of the comments I read when looking up to read Derrick Bingham's letter. To me, Pastor Mc Connell is a genuine and sincere man of God. I don't know him personally but I would hear of his work and I have read his book.
Some of the comments on this blog are hurtful and malice in my opinion and if these are by Christians, they are shameful and a poor witness.
Complain about this comment
Post # 305 Grammarsgontopot
I'm just going to believe all of it or I'm not going to accept any of it are probably both cop outs when approaching the Bible. I also think that there are weightier matters in some parts of the Bible, and less important matters in others.
Jesus' persistant call for us to love one another is far more important than carrying out ablutions, I know you'll agree. Purity of heart and intention, far weightier than external observances. Obviously, I could go on.
I dont think I need an authority figure to point this out to me any more, but I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong in that. When Christ asks me to forgive, not seven times but seventy times seven, I think that is inspired. When the bible tells me to wash my pots and pans in goats milk, I think that, that is uninspired.
I think I have to take responsibility for 'unpacking' the Bible myself and not always depend on someone else to tell me what is important and what is not. I think I have to use my reason, common sense and intellect, all of which I believe God gave me.
Jesus himself complained at the Pharisees for meticulouly following small matters which obviously appeared insignificant to him, while ignoring weightier matters of the law.
I try and look at Jesus' teachings, his ethos, if you like, and interpret the rest of the Bible in that light.
I constantly interpret and try and avoid taking things literally. When Jesus is recorded as having exhorted people to pluck their eye out if it caused them to sin, I take from that, that he wants me not to sin and not that he wants me to mutilate myself. When I go deeper into what he means by 'sin', I think he wants me not to act unjustly or hatefully or greedily or selfishly etc..
In the greater scheme of things, I dont really think it is important what age Adam was when he died, whether their was a flood or not or whether Goliath was 30ft tall or just a big guy. These things may be interesting to debate, but they are ultimately totally unimportant.
Complain about this comment
Concerning post 298, I was referring to the general make up of the 1611 KJV, AND DID NOT MAKE MYSELF CLEAR.
The KJV is the only true ecumenical Bible which has been drawn from various family texts.
The KJV 1611 IS the word of God.
I will respond a bit better when I get the time.
Complain about this comment
post 304.
First of all, you asked me about the Masoretic text, which is found within the old testament of the KJV.
The Dead sea scrolls have 3 families of manuscripts,
1. Masoretic, which has well over 45% of the scrolls.
2. Septuagint, only 5%.
3. Samaritan, only 5%.
The answer to you question is THAT the proto-Masoretic agrees with the KJV and this was confirmed by many independent non-fundamentists scholars.
The slur you made THAT I didn't know the difference from the textus receptus to the byzantine was incorrect and even future it was you has made the mistake, why? because, some scholars have said that the textus receptus(latin) was viewed as an late byzantine text.
NEVER did I contradict or read something into the KJV Bible, I was only giving my opinion to some concerns that people have about Adam and Eve and so on.
Complain about this comment
Anybody see Terry Fittis in Whitewell today - Sunday
Or does anybody know when his offical start date is?
Complain about this comment
How can you accept that the Textus Receptus is perfect and error free when Acts 9:6 is found only in the Latin Vulgate but absolutely no Greek manuscript known to man? Further, how come in Rev 22:19 the phrase "book of life" is used in the KJV when absolutely ALL known Greek manuscripts read "tree of life"?
How can we trust the TR to be 100% error free when the second half of 1 Jn 5:8 are found only in the Latin Vulgate and a Greek manuscript probably written in Oxford about 1520 by a Franciscan friar named Froy (or Roy), who took the disputed words from the Latin Vulgate? (we are not disputing the doctrine of the trinity, just the validity of the last half of this verse)
How do you explain the grammatical error in the original 1611 KJV in Isa 6:2 where the translators made a rare grammatical error by using the incorrect plural form of "seraphims" rather than "seraphim"?
Must we possess a perfectly flawless bible translation in order to call it "the word of God"? If so, how do we know "it" is perfect? If not, why do some "limit" "the word of God" to only ONE "17th Century English" translation? Where was "the word of God" prior to 1611? Did our Pilgrim Fathers have "the word of God" when they brought the GENEVA BIBLE translation with them to North America?
Were the KJV translators "liars" for saying that "the very meanest [poorest] translation" is still "the word of God"?
Do you believe that the Hebrew and Greek used for the KJV are "the word of God"?
Do you believe that the Hebrew and Greek underlying the KJV can "correct" the English?
Do you believe that the English of the KJV "corrects" its own Hebrew and Greek texts from which it was translated?
Is ANY translation "inspired"? Is the KJV an "inspired translation"?
Is the KJV "scripture" ? Is IT "given by inspiration of God"? [2 Tim. 3:16]
WHEN was the KJV "given by inspiration of God" - 1611, or any of the KJV major/minor revisions in 1613, 1629, 1638, 1644, 1664, 1701, 1744, 1762, 1769, and the last one in 1850?
In what language did Jesus Christ [not Peter Ruckman and others] teach that the Old Testament would be preserved forever according to Matthew 5:18?
Where does the Bible teach that God will perfectly preserve His Word in the form of one seventeenth-century English translation?
Did God lose the words of the originals when the "autographs" were destroyed?
Did the KJV translators mislead their readers by saying that their New Testament was "translated out of the original Greek"? [title page of KJV N.T.] Were they "liars" for claiming to have "the original Greek" to translate
Complain about this comment
#SMARTBIGGEORGE 279..289..292..293
"Glad to see you missed me"
Sorry to dissapoint but just been on holiday. Def not gone to PCN. As for A4J 285 dont understand the bit they wrote which says "their id" sorry but im just me!! See they havnt replied when you asked them to ID me!! I would hardly think you'l have to worry bout anyone havin to stand in any of the meetings. And sorry to dissapoint again but there is no husband i became a widow before the summer.
Complain about this comment
FROM TABERNACLE TURMOIL.
ATTENTION FOR
DESTROYEDWW 602..604
ALL4JESUS 603
SMARTBIGGEORGE 605
RELEASEDSONGSTER 606..
You's all must feel very very silly now that you's made such a big fuss about this wedding when in actual fact all the things you's said you's were told an heard from a good source was in FACT just you's all telling lies again.Just goes to show you really should get the facts about things before you come on here blowing it all out of depth.As you can read on the wedding invitations the venue for the said pastors daughter is still the same as it has been from day one.Looks like you's got it all wrong again.Makes one wonder just who many of your comments are actual FACT when you's made such a big thing out of these lies!!
Complain about this comment
SBG
Fantasy Island pastor.
Think you'll be able to work it out.
Rosie
Maybe WW can lend us the chairs that they dont need anymore seeing as the meetings are well down in numbers. Could you explain the big gaps on the ground floor and the cameras just focusing mostly on the stage and REALLY DEPLETED choir when in fact they used to focus on the crowd mainly??? Bit of damage limitation I think.
Also....do you agree with the Demolition Brigade wrecking the Children's House in Romania on a belief of a paedophile ring without actual hard factual evidence of one?? I guess you would agree because according to some WWer's Pastor McConnell can do no wrong.
Complain about this comment
A4J Looks like its guesswork with you because you dont have a clue who i am.
I really think you are the one going to fantasy island for your information as WW is buzzing. I was in attendance tonight as was an amazing crowd balcony was near packed so mayb you should double check your info.
As for your ID im guessing we'l never know it as pastor g would hardly want a vindictive person in his church and would be asking you to leave.
Complain about this comment
JTB Post 313:
I was not asking for information on the Masoretic text in a previous post. When asked which version of the KJV you accepted as the word of God you replied, "The received text or the textus receptus or also called the byzantine text, which also can be called the majority text." (298)
The TR is a manuscript for the Greek New Testament - I was trying to point out that your answer not only failed to address the question but it only related to a New Testament text and included nothing for the Old! If the KJV translators had only used the TR you would only have a New Testament.
Let me challenge directly your quote above and your subsequent argument in defending it. The Majority Text (the standard Byzantine text) differs from the Textus Receptus in 1,838 Greek readings of which more than one thousand represent translatable differences. To say they are the same is factually inaccurate. BTW to point out a factual error is not a slur!
Why did I bother to raise the issue? Because IMO you chose to defend a particular tranlation (1611 KJV) as the word of God while feeling entirely free to directly challenge its meaning without any supporting argument. You say (313) that you have NEVER done this. Again I quote, "A year in Biblical times has not the same time scale length as a year today, it was much lesser" (280). You read the text and then you make a statement to say that it does not mean what it says!! You do not explain why it is clear from the scripture that a day in the life of Methuselah is a different length than a day for us. You present no supporting argument - you just make an assertion that the text does not mean what it says. Why, if it is okay to handle scripture so carelessly, would it matter what manuscript the translators worked from?
Auntjason has asked you a lot of questions now about the KJV and the various revisions of it - however, I would suggest that much more important than your commitment to a particular translation would be a commitment not to handle the text carelessly.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
wwellalltheway,
It is true that pastor George Mckim has got a building and it is open for the prayer meeting tonite at 19:30.we the people at pcn are so excided about what the Lord has done and is going to do through the people who attend pcn. WOW what a night its going to be, were making history tonight people and this is the beginning of something special. I cant wait untill tonight.
your question about the hotel, i dont know the crack with that but God knows and the truth and it will come out some day.
Dont worry brother the rapture has not happened yet because im still here and im a beliver just like you. saying that now it wont be long untill the rapture does happen.
Reamber keep the faith and Love the Lord always
ps see ya tonight
Complain about this comment
really? wow!
Complain about this comment
To previous posts,
Give the boys (I think boys) a coconut!.
Firstly, to aunjason, for going out of his way to try and disprove the deity of Christ the Lord, "O I better be careful, not to use that term as it does not line up with your better translations" or your superior knowledge from the KJV translators, in whom you supported in being liars,
WOW! I bow to your great scholarly intellect OR is it from someone else,
you went on about so-called grammatically errors made, I am quite sure that you have made some (see post 61...sceince) but you properly think that you were inspired when you were writing it and even, some off your cheerleader friends would think the same, even through you made a easy error that most people would make with this word.
The point is, of course there is certain problems associated with the constant revision of information laid before all the translators from various sources BUT to say, that they where not inspired is incorrect, infact if you take the 70 translators who compiled the LXX they completed it in seventy days, which had far more mistakes in it than the other two remaining families and this is why the texts you quote for the KJV can't be backed up, as you keep on comparing the new versions footnotes to the KJV.
Also, it is not true to say that 1 john 5:7 is absent from all pre-16th century greek manuscripts as this verse is found in extant greek manuscripts and 5 of them are before the 16th century (greek 88, 221, 429, 629, 636.) also there are 8000 extant latin manuscripts and many of them contain 1 john 5:7&8 also jeromes latin valgate (AD 340-420) contains the johannine comma, which was translated from a untampered greek text.
Jerome in his prologue to the canonical epistles wrote concerning 1 john 5:7 IRRESPONSIBLE TRANSLATORS LEFT OUT THIS TESTIMONY.
Don't always believe WESTCOTT AND HORT.
Lastly, grammarsgonetourhead, I told you, that I didn't make myself clear the first time.
ps...this is not my hobby and the cults will be very happy.
Complain about this comment
#319# ROSIE
VERY nice to have you back Did you have a nice holiday? I was speaking to BB today and my wife spoke to "Captain Braiden" Both are in good form
For you information Pastor G has no Church it is the Peoples Church
I suspect that you mean last night as at 01.15AM it is Monday morning
Please do not forget to let me have any EVIDENCE you have regarding BB
information is NOT evidence I look foward to you usual promt reply
Complain about this comment
Ref 309 grammarsgonetopot
Regarding post 301, there are some things that I am confused about, others that I am gaining a better understanding off and some things that I know are true. Due to the way the scripture have come down to us, I believe they are incomplete. Validating more scripture is not my concern right now, I’m just certain that more has been written that is not available to us right now. The only authority that could be accepted would be that of the Holy Ghost. The current authority I accept regarding the scriptures is, again, the Holy Ghost. However, I must stress that the scriptures are very unclear in part which must be down to lost documents, others not being included, the translation process and the bias of the translators. Unfortunately, what we have is as good as it gets for now.
When you say you accept the authority of scripture, do you mean that it is God’s word as He would have us possess it at this moment in time? To me the bible is like a giant jigsaw puzzle with the pieces scattered throughout the books. I believe the early Church had the picture on the cover of the lid. However, we don’t. So, if we read, for example, that Stephen and Philip were called to tend to the widows and we discover later on that they fulfilled a role that carried more responsibility we must look for the piece of the jigsaw in which they were called to take on the extra authority. If that piece isn’t there we can assume, seeing all things are done in order, that they must have been called, again by their peers, to fulfil that greater role rather than having taken upon themselves the authority to undertake the role. In Matt. 28:19-20 Jesus is talking specifically to His 11 apostles and not necessarily to those who would follow. Anyway, if what He says is a mark of the true church, why don’t all those who believe be baptised? This one scripture undermines the claim that the true church exists in an unbroken chain from the apostles to today. The Catholic Church baptises babies and the Protestant Church/s which broke away from it has a myriad of views on baptism.
To be properly taught, as were Stephen and Philip, isn’t a qualification for a higher office or calling. Surely all disciples would need to be properly taught. The calling of Philip and Stephen to minister unto the widows was not explicit in the commission of Matt 28: 19-20 as they were already members as seen in Acts 6:3. Their authority to undertake the calling was given them in v6. Now, if later on we read that they had extra responsibility, is it not unreasonable to assume that they were called as in v3 and received the authority as in v6 regarding that responsibility? Just because we don’t read about this process happening doesn’t mean it didn’t. The process that is recorded in Acts6 is there for a reason. I can’t just accept that it was done as a whim of the apostles to make up a little ritual because they wanted to play at religion that day – it must have significance or it wouldn't have been mentioned.
In Matt 28:18, off course Jesus had the authority. Off course, He bestowed it on His apostles. Off course, His disciples bestowed it on those whom God called to positions within the Church as we have just seen in Acts 6. Off course, those same people would have continued to bestow it on others whom God called. But, a recent convert, for example, would not have the authority to be used by God to call an apostle, because authority would come down not up. Now, if this was the case, where is that system today? One cannot pursue this commission unless he has been called by God through one having authority as the apostles obviously had. If what the scriptures are saying is true, an authorised disciple, able to teach the gospel, must have been initiated into the Church having been baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Then they would have to be called by someone in authority and have the authority passed on to them as did Philip and Stephen. Now, if I, having read the words of what Jesus and His disciples taught, decide that I am going to go out into the world and tell other people what I have read, how can I be sure that I am teaching them the right thing? Will I teach it like the Baptists teach it or the Brethren? Will I teach it like the Catholics or the Lutherans? Will I teach it like the Witnesses or the Church of the Nazarene Son Raised and not Buried Evangelical Community Church? Will I teach it like Benny Hine or The Church of the Rattlesnake? And so I could go on and on. Their trust isn’t in some line of institutional authority either. They also claim that their trust is in what He taught and what those He entrusted taught. I hope you can see the problem with the line of reasoning you put forth. I think it is crucial to grasp this.
I do believe the Holy Ghost can lead us into all truth and it is for that very reason that I don’t assemble with other believers. I have had too many bad experiences with those who call themselves ‘born-again’, ‘saved’ and ‘Christian’ Too often I have been disappointed in how much they want to close their minds. When I was younger, I made a ‘professions’ to being ‘saved’ but I could never get my questions answered by those who lead, in a way to satisfy me. I seen too much hypocrisy and double standards. I felt it was the blind leading the blind. Too many didn’t know what they believed. It was just too corny to say some words like abracadabra or ‘Jesus come into my heart’ and I was saved. As I read the scriptures there was so much more to it that was being glossed over. Obvious things like baptism. I counted baptism 80 odd times in the bible but when I asked why the Church did not baptise, it was explained away by saying it was a ‘baptism of the spirit’ which happened when I invited Jesus in. However, I was told if I really wanted to one of the committee would do it for me in the sea. When I read about certain disciples laying their hands on new converts for them to receive the Holy Ghost, I was fobbed off with being told that it only happened in New Testament times. Since then when I speak to some Christians about my questions and my discoveries, the get so defensive they appear as if they could kill me. I have been told I am going to hell a number of times. Why should I go where I’m not wanted?
You may think it is harsh of me to state my opinion here but if I think there is something wrong with Christianity do I not have a duty to my brothers and sisters throughout the world to tell them. If my arguments make no sense then I will be shown that I am wrong or laughed off the blog. Anyway, I do not understand how the things that I say here can undermine anyone assembling anywhere, whether their lives are in danger or not. My words do not contribute to that danger.
What Jesus said in Matt16:18 needs to be understood clearly. What does it matter that the name Peter in Greek happens to be a stone or a rock. Jesus built his Church on Himself. He was the Rock. It doesn’t matter if Peter was promised the gift of seership. This doesn’t establish the divinity of any false church. If it were as you seem to be implying, the Catholic Church must have the best argument to claim that authority. Suppose it were true and the Lord set up His kingdom with Peter as the rock , any church claiming to trace it authority back to Peter would still be a false one unless it believed in and operated on principals of revelation. Why? Simply, because the early Church operated on those principals and in this day and age with modern conditions that Peter could never have considered, a church without regular revelation cannot make the necessary changes to meet those new conditions.
With regards to restoring. If I have a broken table and it gets badly broken to the point that it is in pieces, it no longer is a table. Someone may come along and reform the wood into a bench, and it may be a good bench but it is no longer a table. To restore it into a table may take the original maker and none else. Not a great analogy but I hope you get the picture.
I can’t say where the Church is. Maybe it is in the spirit world where Jesus went between the time of His death and His resurrection. Who knows? I just know that it is not in the Protestant denominations. Their disunity proves their lack of authority. Eph. 4: 11-15; 1Cor 1:10, 14:33; Eph. 4:5
What is essential to church in no particular order:
Jesus Christ at it’s head and not charismatic or paid leaders
Authority
Structure
Revelation
True doctrine
Plain speaking and no gobblygook
A better understanding of salvation and its requirements
Complain about this comment
does anyone know what happened to john and louise mccready ex ww pastor
Complain about this comment
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
"Rosie"
Welcome back!! Were you on Holiday? Perhaps you were in Fantasy Island!
My goodness the list of the disappeared just grows and grows. Perhaps the Choir could go all contempary and do a Freddie Mercury No "Another one bites the dust" My I also invite you to PCN 4TH October 2009 we will be having a mighty holy Ghost Revival Meeting and official opening. Perhaps with WW so filled it would be good for you to give up your seat that night. By the way what about your reply about the imaginary Business Meetings? Whats that..... Oh yeah SILENCE
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
I agree that there are issues around WW and like many on this post was shocked that Pastor McConnell would state that there were annual business meetings. However, the gloating and pack attacks on rosie are unnecessary and unworthy. Give her a break.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
324. At 6:30pm on 31 Aug 2009, johntheebap wrote:
To previous posts,
John D said:
"Firstly, to aunjason, for going out of his way to try and disprove the deity of Christ the Lord, "O I better be careful, not to use that term as it does not line up with your better translations" or your superior knowledge from the KJV translators, in whom you supported in being liars,
WOW! I bow to your great scholarly intellect OR is it from someone else,
you went on about so-called grammatically errors made, I am quite sure that you have made some (see post 61...sceince) but you properly think that you were inspired when you were writing it and even, some off your cheerleader friends would think the same, even through you made a easy error that most people would make with this word."
Just in KJV only fashion - your above statement simply is a rant at me because I questioned your idea that the KJV is faultless.
Did I ever say I was *inspired*, or did any of my cheerleaders - whoever they are - *think the *same*.
That whole passage is just a rant - because you know fine well there is no inspired perfect translation.
John D Said:
"ps...this is not my hobby and the cults will be very happy."
Cults as in KJV only - Ruckman cult?
Here is another problem - on top of all the other problems which you still have not addressed in my previous post. 324
The passage in 2 Thess 2:7 He who now letteth will let: In the time that was written the word let meant to hinder - today it means to permit.
Another example - the word *prevent* 1 Thess 4:15 amos 9:10 which meant *precede* in 1611.
Here we have a complete reversal of the meaning of English words.
Set yourself free John D - Go and buy a couple of good translations to read along with the excellent but not perfect KJV - the ESV and the ASV i'm sure should meet your needs.
-j
Complain about this comment
the peoples church had their first prayer meeting
last night in their new home it was amazing
Complain about this comment
I hear Pastor McCready has left is that true?
Also anyone heard when Terry Fittas making it offical for his come back or is that just rumour.
Evo
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
## Ring a Ring a "Rosie"##
If Rosie can not take the heat she should stay out of the kitchen
Still waiting for the EVIDENCE
Complain about this comment
is it true johnny brown is being welcomed back into the ww fold?
Complain about this comment
wiseabap,
i dont hate people and not a member of ww,
just wish fighting would stop ok and ppl would move on!!
Complain about this comment
as Jimmy Young use 2 say,
STOP THE FIGHTING!!
Complain about this comment
ur comment was very one sided... and ur comments calling Bertie Blake what you did was soooo wrong... ou knowit and i think you should retract your comment.
anyway... may God be glorified and not man
Complain about this comment
##341## ## Sweeper 1110##
How is Johnny Brown ?? = Ex pastor from Dublin church????
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
post 345 SBG
Jonny Brown left ww and became a pastor at Maghaberry Elim and then moved on to Portadown Elim. Still bump into him from time to time and he is doing well.
Complain about this comment
Firstly a big thank you to BlackInga in post 332 they never seem to answer just avoid it .
AIC 322..I would say the lord could use a few in PCN but certainly not all.
SBG 325..Well well here you are avoiding and dodging as usual. What is the evidence you seek? And i see you just skipped over 317!! Why was that was it because you got it wrong?
Released Songster 329.. How come you to slipped over 317?? Is it because you were so wrong? I take it PCN hav started a list of the disappeared as i see a good few returned!! Sorry cant make the 4th yes maybe it will be a revival but of what sort would be the question considering some in attendance.
Complain about this comment
see this is what i am talking about... constant sniping. neither side can grab this... how can God not use all at PCN... do you ciaim to know the will of God or to decide WHO God will use?
God used a murderer in David, a coward in Jonah an ignorant fisherman in Peter. who are you to decide wo God will use Rose? maybe you should concentrate on your own walk.
i have read PCN members attack Pastor McConnell on this they seem to forget where many of them came from. these problems have been in WW a lot and many got saved there. they may disagree with what has happened and decided to leave but they should remember that their attacks in a public forum are not christ like at all. the same goes for WW people. you are totally wrong in your approach on both sides.
People have sank to the point of attacking health issues... how is that productive and supportive of either work. Doctor McConnell suffers from diabetes and with that comes other complicataions and illnesses. yet certain people think it ok to attack his health issues. Pastor Blake has survived two heart attacks yet the WW people think it is ok to attack him... my question is... will the poeple of Whitewell be happy and gloat should Bertie die or will the people of PCN if Jim does?
the word of God tells us not to gloat in another persons fall and it seems there are VULTURES awaiting either church to crash. God forgive you all... you need salvation because you are terrible people and a dreadful advert for christianity and your churches..
seriously people... why are you on here and not trying to reach the natiion you all claim to be so concerned about. i came on here because my son told me about the sniping and i wanted to make a point. no doubt none of you will read or care about my comments because i'm rebuking both sides but i'm gonna do it anyway.
i have 2 theories about the churches.
1. Whitewell are afraid that maybe PCN will prosper in the Lord and God will bless them and give them a revival or that maybe they will be proven right. so what if he does? should you not glory in the work of the Lord. PCN have a warehouse not a big tabernacle again... does it matter what church God blesses as long as God is glorified? lose the jealousy people because it sounds a lot like that is the case.
2. PCN people are supposed to be moving on yet the ones who come on here... well ya arent are ya? my son says there is a majority of people there who want change well then, change and go your way without having a dig at whitewell. in fact you may not like what happened or is happening in whitewell instead of hurting them why not pray for them and encourage them.
again wise up and stop hindering Gods work
Complain about this comment
aye everyone wise up...or i`ll get benny hinn to sort use all out lol
Complain about this comment
lol redeemed very good benny hill would be better though the way theyre getting on
Complain about this comment
wiseabap
You have spoken words of wisdom. Some people who attend the PCN have been hurtful in their comments about WW and in particular Pastor McConnell. I also have to say that some blogs from WW's have been a disgrace. You'll are supposed to be on the same side people! Pray for one another and love one another. Its not about numbers or how many have left/returned. So what about bums on seats. Its about Him!! If you have failed to grasp this, what is your faith built on?
Complain about this comment
grammarsgonetopot
I responded to you at Ref 326. However, I have decided to call it a day at posting on blogs. Dont bother to reply to what I said as I won't be around. I want to thank you for your time and words which I will reflect on. I have left some words on the 'What is compassion' thread if you care to read them. In the meantime, I wish you God's richest blessings. Goodbye
Complain about this comment
#Rosie#
I had to look at the Tabernacle Turmoil website to refresh my memory
I simply made an observation IDID NOT state a fact the commentwas based on other blogs and I certainly do NOT avoid issues of any type with anyone irrespective of any "Exalted Position "
I will hold my corner with anyone irrespective be they pastor / preacher / prelate/ paramilitary /pope or politician
I notice that a pro Whiteweller made a nasty viscious personal comment about Bertie Blake which was quickly removed ( Quite rightly )
I can remember being at Whitewell when Supermac had nothing put praise for brother Bertie ( as he called him )
My contacts tell me that Bertie is a proper gentleman and I only spoke to him for the first time on Monday at the PCN when my wife and I called up to leave in a small gift and wish them well. Neither my wife or I are PCN and I suspect that we never will be. I also spoke to George Mc K for the first time and also found that he is a proper gentleman as well.
I understand that James Mc C is diabetic and I am also diabetic -it is almost an illness out of control these days and for anyone to raise health issues from either side they are beneath contempt. You alledged that BB had torn up an address book and was guilty of other misdemeanours.
You may have information regarding these matters but Hugh Orde said " information is not evidence" and if you have no evidence or are unwilling to provide it you would be well advised to keep silent on these issues. I had discussions with Supermac on 2 occasions and the kindest comment that I could make is that he was rude, arrogant and agressive on both occassions and could have benefited from a course on people skills. If Supermac was operating in the commercial world he certainly would be cut down to size immediately. Did you have good weather on your holidays? Were you anywhere nice?
Complain about this comment
Is Terry Fittas back at ww for good anybody seen him again?
Also is J McCready still there?
Thanks
Complain about this comment
Complain about this comment
j mcCready from what i hear has been sacked/ fired.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
arosebetweenthorns 358
What is the correct facts concerning John McCready is he still at ww?
I am not trying to cause conflict just looking to know the truth.
Thanks
Complain about this comment
Hi bloggers,
I would appeal to everyone to be responsible with their comments creating mature and sensible discussion. Some of the attacks on this blog have been quite nasty and of personal nature.
There are genuine and serious concerns about Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle Belfast that are a matter of public interest. Some of the more immature comments have only served to undermine these concerns. The aggressive comments made by AROSEBETWEENTHORNS etc made in defence of WMTB have also done little to support its cause.
So to quote Will Crawley;
"Let's treat others the way we would have them treat us -- because what goes around comes around, eventually. And let these be the characteristics of our conversation: listening with openness, speaking with respect, engaging with grace. Agreed?"
For those seeking answers to genuine questions, might I suggest contacting WMTB via the email address on the official church website or its facebook page
You could maybe then relay to the blog the answers you receive from WMTB.
Complain about this comment
#REF LAST BLOG# 360
WWMT are not good at replying to E Mail/s I know of a person who NEVER received a reply to a number of E Mail/s Rosie may speak for WWMT?
I suspect that E Mail/s to PCN WOULD BE ANSWERED PRONTO PRONTO
Complain about this comment
#361#
I am not a"NEW MEMBER"
Complain about this comment
SBG, may i challenge and exhort you to seek answers rg the identity of the trustees, date of the annual business meeting etc from WMTB email rather than AROSEBETWEENTHORNS. I doubt her credibility.
If you [or anyone else] do so, please share your response with the blog. It may be helpful for the concerned bloggers to formulate a list of questions.
I personally would like to know what is the current relationship between WMTB and its church plants in Hull, Falikirk and Dublin.
Complain about this comment
#363#
I understand that PCN recived a delivery to Mallusk from Falkirk
In the last few days . There is no refrence to WWMT on the Falkirk
web site but PCN are listed as friends
Pastor Thompson/Hull has spoken at PCN/Hilton Hotel
Pastor Perry/Dublin came up to PCN with a gift for the church
Complain about this comment
Arosebetweenthorns,
Since you're posting here again (albeit in your usual poor English), how about answering my question I first posted here at number 230, namely when was the last WW congregational business meeting?
Also, do you think that any minister should style himself as a "Doctor" in newspaper adverts on the basis of an honorary degree?
Complain about this comment
#363#
Neither I or you will get answers from WWMT
You are 100% correct about Rosie
Complain about this comment
To all posts concerning (arosebetweenthorns),
boys, do you not think its time NOW to stop getting at "ARBT" this CHRISTIAN LADY is NOT the main speaker for whitewell, I suggest, that you need to be men and either call in & see mc connell or one off his side kicks and get the true facts/stories right from the donkeys mouths and if you have any anger, take it out on them and NOT on a CHRISTIAN WIDOW.
PS... THE WHITEWELL LEADERSHIP IS DESTROYING THE WORK.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
# How do you know if the Bloger is Male or Female?
Have you a crystal ball????????????????????????
Complain about this comment
i tried to talk to some one on the phone in WW today and find out if there was any truth, they wouldnt let me talk to the pastor even though they knew who i was and had a good relationship with the church, then they wouldnt answer any questions i asked.
I just wanted to know what was happening cos i am really concerned about the place,
i am going to try and ring pastor mck
i have to say in all the years i was there there was never one business meeting i can recall and i never missed meetings very often in reply to an earlier question some one asked.
that ssaid i dont think people should be attacking or relishing a churches downfall... pastor mac used to say 'the christian church is the only church to shoot its wounded'
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
post 371...
fair play to ya, you've put me in my corner!.
If I were you, I would not contact them again, the very fact that they did not help you in any way shows me that they have been in the wrong right from the very start.
God Bless you...wiseabap.
Complain about this comment
the lord is really blessing at the pcn
as i know he is also blessing at whitewell
lets not forget we are still brothers and sisters
Complain about this comment
#370# WISEABAP
Wiseup did you expect Supermac to talk to you and answer any of your questions??
What questions are you looking answers for??
Ask "Rosie" she may have answers to your questions .She knows everthing
Complain about this comment
And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
Complain about this comment
nothing new under the sun...solomon was right! this is indeed vanity and vexation of spirit lol
Complain about this comment
re..359 evoape
Yes john mc cready is still present in ww contrary to posts on here he was not sacked he was there this morning doing his job.
Complain about this comment
## Rosie##
I understand that the African Childrens Choir is at PCN on Wed 09/09/09
Did they not sing at WWMT in the past?????
Will you be able to go to PCN 09/09/09??
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Can anyone tell me if there has been a split at Glenmachin Church of God.I was up recently and NO CHOIR singing and place half empty.Ex choir leader Jim Connelly was at PCN when home from America .
Complain about this comment
#384#
A "Split" are you mad?
They may have gone to fill the empty seats at WWMT
Complain about this comment
#Rosie#
We attended PCN @ Mallusk on Wednesday evening when the African Children's Choir took part. I thought that we would not be able to gain access to the car park as the huge crowds swept into the bulding.
I was truly amazed at the wonderful facilities that the building affords.
The choir was excellent the children were tremendous.
The offering baskets were filled to overflowing with "paper" money
A church member said to me 2 weeks ago that the building would quickly become too small for the numbers attending and that they would not know just where to park the cars. I was sceptical of these remarks but I now realise that there will soon be a major parking problem
George has ordered 1000 chairs but I suspect that this will be insufficient. The PCN are certainly marching forward and really looking forward to the big day on 4th October DV when the building will be officially opened ( I understand that that was the date scheduled for the old guard ( Supermac ) to hand over the pulpit at Metropolitan to George Mc Kimm "
If Supermac does not know what the problem is in Metropolitan Church he will most certainly not know the answer.
I suspect that the oversight do not know either or are too afraid to tell him or they will also "walk the plank"
Complain about this comment
SBG you really are starting to sound lik a bitter person tel you what why dont you go where you go an others wil go where they go an we'l all serve god, because you see its one god all over but obviously you dont fear god when you run down his house surely it god we should be worshiping not a man or a building.
Complain about this comment
Ref 387
Sorry arosebetweenthorns but you continually have been bitter and aggressive throughout your posts on this blog. Yes others have been nasty towards you but turn the other cheek we are supposed to love one another. We follow the Lord Jesus Christ, not Jim McConnell or George McKimm.
Complain about this comment
HMM... never were truer words spoken... when we get to heaven it will not be whitewellers in one corner, pcn in another, elim in another, presbyterian in another.... we are in heaven because of Gods love in sending his son to die for us, we are there to worship him and him alone.
in the kingdom we will stand side by side. how can the body be divided. i dare you to say something good about George McKimm whitewellers and I dare you to say something good about Jim McConnell pcn people... cut out the bitter and move on istead of sniping at eachother.
Complain about this comment
some of the blogs here are quite nasty and personal. At the end of the day this split has been caused over personalities. those who follow George are at pcn and those who follow McC are at whitewell.
many things have happened in the past in which many if not all members should have walked out of whitewell in protest but they decided to stay. i walked out. Now when a personality they like gets hurt they decide to walk out not over moral issues but over a man.
You may all agree to disagree and get on with what you are doing. i am just amazed at how quickly people decide to say God has changed his mind and his plans when things havent went according to their plan. I thought i served a never changing God not an ever changing God.
Complain about this comment
I think we all should remember, it was the Whitewell so-called leadership which has caused all the confusion, hurt, and bad feelings, they are to blame, they are the ones, NOT the people who parted company with each other, some stayed, some went.
The ARROGANCE of the whitewell leadership started all of this, they need to REPENT and really turn to GOD, AND STOP ALL THE TALK.
Complain about this comment
jtb i agree, but ultimately, people have a choice of standing up for Gods standards or not. I know there is no perfect church, we are all human, and i think you are right, Repentance is needed. the ww leadership was causing hurt, confusion and bad feelings long before this episode. This has just hurt WW as George had the power to take away a lot of the flock instead of one or two here and there that had the guts to stand up to the leadership in the past.
Complain about this comment