Tabernacle turmoil
We'll have a report on the the turmoil at Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle on tomorrow's Sunday Sequence, beginning at 8.30 am on BBC Radio Ulster. So far, more than 600 comments have been added to our earlier report on Pastor James McConnell's dispute with his successor-in-waiting Pastor George McKim over the timing of Pastor McKim's appointment as senior pastor. That dispute culminated in Pastor McKim's departure from Whitewell and the establishment, last Sunday, of a new church, which had nearly 400 people in attendance for its first day of services. Now, current and former members of Whitewell are coming forward to ask serious questions about how the church manages its affairs. Listen tomorrow morning from 8.30 for the latest.
Update: Listen to Malachi O'Doherty's report on the split at Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle on the BBC iPlayer here. The report is the first item on this week's Sunday Sequence.
Update: On 28 June, The Peoples Church, Newtownabbey, the break-away church founded by George McKim, changed its venue to the Hilton Hotel, Templepatrick. Some reports suggest that the church has not outgrown its original venue at Corrs Corner Hotel.
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Could anybody record this for a listener in America whom they won't stream the iPlayer to? (Or, maybe this segment will be a part of the Everyday Ethics podcast in which case I don't need to worry?)
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As some one who has frequented the Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle on and off for approximately 23years, I look forward to what will transpire from the programme tomorrow if anything.
I believe that enough valid and reasonable questions have been produced by commenters through the Mega church blog with over 600 comments being made.
There seems to be an oppressive position taken towards those who make justifiable and intelligent enquiry, why should the leadership feel threatened by honest questions seeking honest answers.
There are question marks about the theology of the WWMT that require answers and there are also obscure areas surrounding the governance of the WWMT that necessitate illumination.
I have a number of tapes from WW and one of them is about British Israelism, but to the undiscerning it probably would be accepted as truth, but is nothing more than unadulterated fiction invented by man and is in the same league as the Da Vinci code.
I have been speaking to members of WW during the week and it looks like the ranks have been closed as they have not been prepared to talk about the situation at WW, all they were prepared to do was to sing the praises of Pastor McConnell and George McKim, they were singing of the same hymn sheet.
As some one who has contributed somewhere in the region of £6000 over the past five years, which was gift aided, and when taken as a percentage of my wages it is quiet a lot of money because I work in a traditionally low paid job. I believe that I have a legitimate right to know how my money is spent. Why all cloak-and-dagger.
If the Holy Spirit is present in WW there will be light.
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Hippy
That's a substantial amount of money indeed but would you not have been better to try and find out as much as you could about where money went before you gave it?
I'm not trying to be awkward or anything and I know that in the church there's a general view that the church will 'do the right thing' with money collected but surely we should be checking these things out as best we can as we go along.
I mean, for example, if I thought my church was going to blow a lot of dosh on a new building with comfy seats and a surround sound system and all, I'd redirect it to TEAR Fund.
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Technically, should a "Megachurch" not have ~1 million members? It would seem that Whitewell is really only a 3.3 kilochurch, no?
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Ach, Helio, one million? The church is much bigger than that... stars in the sky, sand on the seashore...
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Hello Peter,
In the meantime I have now redirected my tithe to a ministry that shows social responsibility, though WW still gets a small offering which is not gift aided.
I have given my tithe in faith to God and not WW, but if the tithe has been used in an irresponsible way it is those that have showed the bad stewardship that will have to answer for their actions.Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.
I believe that their should always an atmosphere of transparency and openness in the House of God anything else is a dishonour to his precious name, because God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
I believe it is good stewardship to know how your money is spent and it is biblically unethical to withhold such information from those that tithe their hard earned cash.
I believe that if the church receives money that they should know where it is coming from, not once has a pastor from WW ever darkened my door, even though I was incapacitated through illness for nearly a year and was absent from my employment on sick leave during that time. I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
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Where has Marcus Aurelius been through this Mega blog.
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Hippy, the route to finding where your money went should be relatively simple. You say it was gift aided which indicates that it has gone to a registered Charity. If you go the Charity Commission website type in the Charity No. and you will be able to view the accounts online.
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Is tithing money scriptural ?
http://bible-truths.com/tithing.html
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Christian Hippy, you don't have a legitimate right to know 'how my money was spent' because if you understood what a 'tithe' is - then you'd realise its not YOUR money anyway. Your £6000 does not buy you shares in the church.
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Domjoly
You are correct "it is not your money" however if you are a member of a church or any organisation it is reasonable that there is an anual audited and published account.
IN WW THE GENERAL ATTITUDE IS THAT IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS AND YOU MAY BE TOLD TO GET OUT AS SOME HAVE
If Gift aid is involved there has to be some form of accountand claim per person participating in the gift aid. When as member of WW and participating in gift aid I had to sign for my contributions periodically.
Oh for the day when Margaret Ritchie pulls the charities here into line hopefully with the charity commission as operating within England and Wales. Then that element of giving will be available for all to see.
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I have NO problems with publishing accounts. This will happen sooner or later anyway.
My problem is with the attitude of people like ChristianHippy - that if 'my money' isn't spent as I'd like it, then I will send 'my money' elsewhere. So that's exactly what he/she has done - now giving a 'small offering' to Whitewell and the tithe to an organisation that shows 'social responsibility' - clearly implying that whitewell doesn't do the same. In other words, the real issue is that because they feel they're not getting any bang for their buck out of WW - they're not giving to it anymore.
My point is...'tithing' is not about buying influence and visitation rights - but giving to God into His storehouse which in the New Testament context is the local church. I'm not a menber of WW. Nor am I siding with any particular group. I just detest the way people treat the Church as a social club. Tough times like this call for mature Christian attitudes.
Oh...and when a Christian tithes, does it make them poorer? Not according to Malachi.
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The report from Sunday Sequence on the Whitewell split is now available on www.malachiodoherty.com
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domjoly,
i think that under the circumstances clarity needs to be shown in a situation were a church organisation can ask for donations to certain church programs for approx 2 years, which i put money into that now seems was not actually going to the programme i believed i was supporting. Showing church accounts will not change this situation?
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To Domjoly,
I understand the point you are trying to make agaisnt The Christian Hippy, that the money is God's to begin with, not theirs, but I think that it's important to remember that whilst the money you give is given to God and, ultiamtely, was his to begin with, Christians should still excercise discernment about exactly how this money is used, and that is not just the job of the churches and organisations receiving the money, but also the responsibility of individual Christians to make sure that they are being wise in their giving and not squandering the gifts God has given them to use. If Whitewell is not using the money they are being given wisely, then it is not only sensible, but responsible for a Christian to choose to give that money another way. They are still giving, afterall, not keeping it for their own use.
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I have often heard pastor McConnell preach about tithing, and wondered how do the pastors tithe. Do they take their wages, from the members tithing money, less 10%? Or do they take their wages, from the members tithing money, then after they have paid tax and insurance, they then give 10% back to the church?
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if its possible, can i claim my tithe back even though it was voluntary believing it was being used for what i was told it was being used for?????? 22+ years tithing is a lot of money for someone in a manual labouring job.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Anybody wondering who all the rich people in NEWTOWNABBEY are? I refer to the new church set up in the said district. We were informed that on their 1st meeting in a hotel no less they managed to raise £11000 via the 300 people who attended, thats £366 per person and if this = 10% of their weekly salary then they would appear to be doing better than a lot of our MPs!
Which takes me very nicely on to the next topic raised to-day I was hoping that you would have mentioned the marvelous christian gesture that Tony Blair charged all of us tax payers for ie having his roof repaired just before retiring as PM, nice one Tony!
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How long before people will demand public answers to all these questions in WW? The worm has turned ...
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Regarding post 24, if that is true, then at least the members know how much was collected. Now my next question, how much was collected at the Whitewell, last Sunday?
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Well, they are downloading the Sunday Sequence report from my blog by the hundred, and that has never happened before.
it's at www.malachiodoherty.com
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Dear Malachi, your famous!.
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Christian Hippy's perfectly legitimate concerns raise serious questions about what our 'Protestant' (general term) churches have become and if this WW turmoil and the earlier and ongoing PMS problems don't cause us to take a step back and think about who we are, what we are doing and where we are going then, to be frank, there will only be worse to come.
A number of things strike me and they are related to church in general not just money.
On this thread, as in the case of the PMS, we are speaking of church as if it were something other than us. Statements like, we need the church to help us or we need the church to take responsibility, these, and the WW disputes about leaders and personalities, demonstrate that we are in the process of forgetting that we are all the church. There is no church without us, all of us. It (the church) is not 'leadership', it is not an 'institution', it is not a 'registered charity', a movement, a building, a programme of events or anything else, it is people, people who identify themselves with Jesus. The church is not a 'worship leader', a bishop, a moderator, a priest, a missionary or something quaintly called 'full time service'. The church is people. We exist for the benefit of those who are not our members (ref. City Church last week, I am not a member of City Church BTW). We exist for the benefit of the community ("seek the peace and prosperity of the city..."). We exist for the benefit of one another. We exist to be gracious and kind and forgiving. We exist to act with justice and mercy. We exist to worship God. And when we worship, we worship with cups of cold water as much as with our music and songs, maybe more so. We worship when we do a fair days work without shirking or putting in false expenses claims. We worship when we drink coffee, change nappies and act with generosity towards our enemies. We worship when we welcome strangers and immigrants.
But it seems we have become something else. We are drowning in a sub culture of our own making and we have communicated the idea to others that if they are to join us then they must first become like us, we have communicated the idea that participation in our subculture is Christianity. We have fallen into the trap, we of all people, of thinking that the medium is the message.
And when the trappings are removed, what is left? When the leader steps down, or our money disappears, what then, is the church gone too? Worse still, we have associated God with our paraphernalia and the premise of our Christianity is, "you've got to go to church".
The church is in trouble, and the publishing of a few accounts in WW, however important, or the rescue of the PMS, however important, isn't, I fear, going to be enough to sort us out.
Personally I understand more and more why people like some of the atheists on here don't want to know.
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"Well, they are downloading the Sunday Sequence report from my blog by the hundred, and that has never happened before."
Malachi,
If that happened in our evangelical churches, we'd call it a revival!
:-)
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What? just downloading Sunday Sequence.
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No. It was a reference to the numbers game, some evangelicals are obsessed with it.
That and it was a joke, or an attempt at one, obviously I failed miserably.
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As a member of ww I would like to say there is no perfect church and the problems of the moment are just that..of the moment,
Pastor McConnell and Pastor McKim are both born again, Spirit filled men of God.I believe that when they both forget their flesh and get on with the work God gave them to do and not being influenced by all and sundry but be submitted to THE HOLY SPIRIT alone , then we can all get back to plan A and learn much from this time. we say to the enemy "enough is enough we are going to walk in love with each other...in honour preferring one another and esteeming each other more highly than ourselves"
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Perhaps, Peter, perhaps, but your post before that was insightful and to the point (which is always better than inciteful and pointed, like so many comments on this blog seem to be - and so often the Christian ones, which leads on to what I'm going to say). The Church, as a visible organisation, bound to its buildings and charity numbers, is always letting itself down, but then, it always has been, from the more famous actions of Churches throughout the middle ages to more modern scams and overreactions. The Church is always shooting itself in the foot.
But, as the Church of Christ it is the successor to the nation of Israel, the people of God, and his royal priesthood. Lofty titles indeed, and yet, of course, the Bible tells the tale of how they spent their time shooting themselves in the foot. People are people, and Jewish people and Christian people are people too. We're all fallible, we're all sinners and we all make mistakes, often huge ones. The Church makes itself look corrupt, or stupid, or, even on ocassion, evil, and we wonder how God can be glorified, but hypocrisy, whilst never a good thing, is an inevitable sign of a fallen race trying to follow a heavenly code and is only to be expected. I take comfot in the fact that, whilst Israel was as bad, if not worse, in the Bible as the Church has been these past 2000 years in terms of 'PR' and doing the right thing, God still followed through on all his plans. God suffered, Christ died, but God's blessings still flow and his Will carries on.
The Church is a mess, but it still grows and God's will will be done.
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And I apologise for the equally messy formatting there. Stupid Preview misled me.
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Re post 24 motecleaner
Please check your maths!!!
I make £11000 divided by 300 £36.60
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A number of people have contacted Sunday Sequence with their concerns about the recent controversy at Whitewell Metropolitan. Some have expressed a wish to make their concerns more public. If you would like to speak to the programme about your concerns, you can email william.crawley@bbc.co.uk
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motecleaner whoever told you that the peopls church newtownabbey lifted 11000 of an offering at their first service is talking rubbish i attend peoples church newtownabbey and i know for a fact that the offering was no where near 11000 but i will say the place we are in is now too small the lord is being exalted lifes are being changed and its all by the grace of god amy the lord bless you and if you dont know him i pray you will one day
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motecleaner please excuse my spelling i meant to say may the lord bless you god bless
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To quicktruthteller, of course the offering was 11000 for the 1st Sunday of PCN I was there on the monday night prayer meeting when it was announced.
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Please help me.
I'd be genuinely interested to hear responses to the questions below:
Would anyone here like to tell of how you became a Christian at WW?
Has anyone here ever been blessed through the ministry of WW?
Has anyone here ever been healed at WW?
Does anyone here agree that McConnell and McKim are both
actually good guys who love God and the people they lead?
Does anyone here think that there is hope that something good can come out of all this?
As I say, I'd be genuinely interested to know...
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Dom Joly and john the Baptist in dialogue.
This blog has now met the necessary and sufficient conditions for being surreal.
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1st, It does not matter, where you become a BORN-AGAIN person In CHRIST, just as long "that" you do it.
2nd, YES, I was Married there.
3rd, In Whitewell, there would be people who DON'T accept Healing or even are Pentecostalists "BUT" on the other hand, people have been "too" their own knowledge been healed.
4th, Both pastors are from my own experience are very kind people, who have a clear dedication for God's people.
5th, Yes, if both men meet alone without others interfering.
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To gveale - lol
To johntheebap - thank-you.
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To gveale, sorry for leaving you out my FRIEND, go to youtube 169000.
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John the Bap
Is the friend in caps significant? I can't get YouTube on the C2K system. Help, I'm confused!
I don't think I know any Baptists called John. At least not any who would know about You Tube.
GV
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Dear FRIEND, you must be either in a School or somewhere else to use such a system.
Yes the FRIEND in caps is significant, as I was being kind to you.
I was given the nickname by the Homeless people I used to work with for two reasons... 1, I used to cut their hairs, 2, I used to have a Bible Class as well.
Lastly, I hope this does not turn into our blog instead of William Crawley's, that's the reason why I referred you to youtube or type in j.dynes on google search with whisper JESUS, THANK YOU!.
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debraards i was at georges church yesterday and george said what the offering was last sunday but even if it was 11000 or the amount i was told that has nothing to do with anyone on here i think we both know most of the people on here have never met or even spoke to george or the bishop or even set foot in whitewell
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Hi Folks,
I'm not too sure which blog to be on but i have some sincere questions for Pastor Mckim & those of you who have went witn him.
Leaving aside the issues of dates,Timing of sucession,whos to blame,
contracts, money etc etc on the human level, I would like to know;
1/Is pastor G still convinced that the Holy Spirit has called him to be the sucessor at WW? If so then is PCN A 'time out' till he returns to WW?
2/Did he agree when Pastor Mc announced that the Holy Spirit was responsible for the infamous "October date" ie did the Spirit tell him(for want of a better word) the same thing?
3/If the Spirit has called him to WW, why has he left? did the Spirit tell him to leave and start another church? Is God not bigger than all the difficulties he states that he was having,no matter how bad they were? "if God be for us who can be against us" Rom 8:32
4/If it is Gods will for him to start another church, then was the original call to come to WW wrong,or did he get it wrong,did Pastor Mc get it wrong in the first place to approach him?
5/Has Pastor G made any statements regarding the role of the Holy Soirit in all this??
Would really like to know!
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Iv'e been connected with Whitewell from the early 80s, but didn't come on this blog to kiss & tell, but to see what William Crawley was saying and have ended up just replying to posts 42&47, and have not taken any so-called sides, as I need to stay on the Lord's side.
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red maybe you should not be asking George these questions maybe you should ask pastor mcconnell himself. If The Holy Spirit did tell pastor mcconnell that Pastor Mckim was to take over in October and confirmed this to Pastor Mckim then pastor mcconnell changes his mind yes his mind then you should ask pastor mcconnell why he did change his mind wrong person to be asking when it is pastor mcconnell that you should be asking your questions to as according to you The Spirit told both that this was the date then the dramatic change from pastor mcconnell so ask pastor mcconnell not pastor mckim
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Er, John the Bap
Did I cause offence or something? You can see the funny side of John the Baptist talking to Dom Joly, right? Or were you being kind because I seemed confused. Now I'm even more confused!
Yeah, I'm an RE teacher. This blog is why God gave us free periods.
What was on YouTube?
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Dear FRIEND & RE teacher, when you get home from your hard days work, you can go on your personal pc and check out my youtube web-site... youtube 169000, seeing your so religious.
ps... God is not the author of confusion.
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An interesting article entitled "The Coming Evangelical Collapse" which is relevant to this crisis.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html
A quick summary of the article by Michael Spencer -
THE MAIN CONTENTION We are on the vergewithin 10 yearsof a major collapse of evangelical Christianity.
ARGUMENTS
1) "Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. Being rhetorically pro-life will not make up for the fact that massive majorities of Evangelicals can't articulate the Gospel with any coherence. We fell for the trap of believing in a cause more than a faith."
2) "We Evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaught. Ironically, the billions of dollars we've spent on youth ministers, Christian music, publishing, and media has produced a culture of young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith except how they feel about it."
3) "There are three kinds of evangelical churches today: consumer-driven megachurches, dying churches, and new churches whose future is fragile."
4) "Evangelicalism has used its educational system primarily to staff its own needs and talk to itself."
5) "The confrontation between cultural secularism and the faith at the core of evangelical efforts to "do good" is rapidly approaching. We will soon see that the good Evangelicals want to do will be viewed as bad by so many."
6) "The money will dry up."
I'd like to see some data to back up claim 3, and the article seems to be focused on the literate West. It is difficult to quibble with the rest of the analysis.
WHAT WILL BE LEFT OF EVANGELICALISM?
A) "The pragmatic, therapeutic, church-growth oriented megachurches that have defined success. Emphasis will shift from doctrine to relevance, motivation, and personal success."
B) "Two of the beneficiaries will be the Roman Catholic and Orthodox communions. Both communions have made efforts to "win over" Evangelicals, with some success."
[[It is not unusual to find Priests in these communions who believe the Gospel as Evangelicals understand it, and have found ways to reconcile this with the Sacraments and Magisterial Authority. Bernard, who blogs here, would meet this definition (although to my knowledge isn't a Priest).]]
C) "The emerging church will largely vanish from the evangelical landscape."[[Given that Northern Ireland runs at a 10 year time lag behind the US, it's due an outburst of activity here.]]
D) "Aggressively evangelistic fundamentalist churches will begin to disappear."
E) "Some Evangelicals will work to create their own countercultures, rather than try to change the culture at large."
F) "Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity will become the majority report in evangelicalism. Can this community withstand heresy, relativism, and confusion?"
These are Spencer's arguments, not mine, before I'm accused of being an evil spirit of discouragement. However, I certainly see (E) as a possibility. And I think this is a warning long overdue...
GV
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John
LOL...stop doing the devil's work then! I don't have YouTube at home. Should I google that name?
GV
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(-;
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Hi secondmcc,
I'm not disputing Pastor Mc has questions to answer,but dont try and evade the issue!! You are actually making the same type of statements that people have criticized WW about. Is Pastor G above being asked how the Holy Spirit has led him in all of this? Does Pastor Mc changing his mind concerning dates superseed the call of God in Pastor G's life? Do wordings on contracts really change God's will? Do you believe Pastor G is still the man for WW, AS A PCN person told me at the weekend? If not then why did he come in the first place, did he make a mistake? Did God not forsee all of this?
Another PCN brother told me that the reason that Pastor G didn't go back to scotland was that he & his wife still believed God has called them to the area to minister, fair enough, but being called to an area and being called to be the leader at WW are to different things, one is specific!
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post 50 question 1 - re GMcK to take over from PMcC - the spirit is in the people not the building.... just becasue GMcK has left WW doesn't mean he still can't take over from PMcC... no one said he'd take over in the WW building....
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Actually, John, your comment about the two pastors was interesting, and quite plausible.
When authority is invested in individuals rather than offices, power struggles can materialise around them. I've been trying to point out (to no avail) that Mr McConnell most likely has very little room for maneuver.
I'm also bewildered by the accusations aimed at both pastors. They sound so plausible - but I have yet to see any evidence beyond personal anecdotes that contradict each other.
GV
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hi lifeall4god,
Sori but your to understand the logic of your last post, are you saying that Pcn are now the true work that the Lord started 53 yrs ago?
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revdocholiday, I said no such thing. I merely pointed out that Gods calling works through people, not bricks.
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"When I used to do the Devil's work" there was no room for maneuver from me, not even calling certain types of people FRIEND.
I think your right, youtube IS on the net, why are you on HERE, seeing it is so WORLDLY, SHAME,SHAME ON YOU.
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Lifeall4god, neither did I, but the implication of your post is that Pastor Mck starting another church/work is fulfilling God's call to be Pastor MC sucessor! Has Pastor G actually said this? Does he believe that this is the will of God now? that the mantle has now been passed?
Please understand I'm not attacking Pastor G, just trying to get a handle on his thinking behind all this?
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revdocholiday, in my opinion my post doesn't imply that GMcK is fulfilling Gods work to be PMcC's successor, but everything is down to opinion. I don't know what GMcK feels, similarly I don't know what PMcC thinks of the situ. I'm not making any assumptions or taking sides as I don't know everything from both sides of the fence. I'm not going to worry too much about it anyway. Whatever God's plan is will come to fruition, and maybe GmcK had to take an outward step from WW in a leap of faith to make him understand something that is unknown at present. All I can say is that both GMcK & PMcC are deeply hurt over this whole mess and rather than everyone attacking them, and the people who have either stayed at WW or went to PCN, we should be coming together to work for the Lord instead of tearing each other to shreads, we're only doing the devils work for him. I have been at WW for nearly 20 years and feel loyalty to the church because of that, but if I felt I had to leave and follow God through GMcKs ministry then I would. I dont think either party is blameless in what had happened. I have spoken to GMcK & to one of the other pastors at WW and things that seem innocent to both parties could be taken wrongly by the other, so I don't think we'll ever have a clearcut one being right & one being wrong. These little trials are sent to test us, but this is only a little bit, the final outcome for God is what is important.
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Okay, you are deliberately trying to confuse me now, aren't you?
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post 69 was aimed at John the Baptist. Either English isn't his first language, or he's missing a few sandwhiches from his picnic.
Sam, yeah, a very interesting article. The question is, how do we respond. I listened to Malachi's report, but haven't read his article yet.
GV
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Sam
Folk on Malachi's broadcast talked about the succession in terms of Elijah and Elisha. Is that how people at WW view the succession - as an event of that kind? That God would directly intervene and appoint a successor directly?
Or have I misunderstood?
GV
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Yes that would be accurate GV. Many ww members feel that James McConnell is "anointed" and has a special Holy Spirit gifting for the ministry especially as an evangelist. This came from an angel visitation reported by James McConnell as young boy.
Many hoped this would pass to his successor, who many feels should be George McKim. A la elijah to elisha as you have said.
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I see that the "BELFAST TElEGRAPH" has picked up on the Sunday Sequence story of the Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle. Read it @ http://tinyurl.com/mkyjcg
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lifeall4god
let me repeat that I'm not atacking anyone or taking sides, as you can see by reading my past posts on both blogs. As i have already said I am not asking these questions to apportion blame! Pastor G, by giving 22yrs service in Falkirk, has shown that he's a man who stands by his call, that he is a man who lives for his convictions! So I dont understand why he's left to start another work?
Let me put it this way,the Lord has led me to WW, The lord then leads Pastor G to be the next leader, that means that God, in His sovereignity has purposed that George Mckim be responsible to shepherd me spiritually! To encourage me,teach me,guide me,maybe at times rebuke me etc in other words to be MY Pastor! So if all that is true yhen why is he not there fulfilling his God ordained purpose? How are my spiritual needs being met by him when he's not even there?
As you have said,the people are the work & not the building, but as 70-80% of the people,who Pastor G was called to minister to, are still in the WW building,then I believe it is perfectly legitimate to ask how and why he believes that the Lord has now led him elsewhere?
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CONCERNING POST...56, "as spongebob would say"... Barnacles.
1. When someone becomes a BORN-AGAIN person, the last thing on their minds is... culture "but" CHRIST, or politics "but" PRAYER or conservatism "just" CONVERSION.
2. Orthodoxy, what a joke, more people are leaving it, than joining it, WHY? to become Evangelical's.
3. Money, to say that money will dry up, to "Evangelical Churches" Is just SILLY.
4. Success, of course people who turn to the so-called term "Evangelical Christian" will improve their lifestyle, if its for a short time or a long period of time, this is a fact, Spiritually & Educationally plus Materially.
5. Fundamentalist, the reason why so many people turn to Fundamentalism is quite "OBVIOUS", the whole world knows that so-called Orthodoxy from whatever quarter has let down the UNTOLD MILLIONS of people since their religion began and this is also one off the main reasons why CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISM will always excist.
Lastly, at least the people of WHITEWELL CHURCH can disagree and have a free choice where to worship and with whom "but" history paints a different picture of what so-called Orthodoxy does with those who spilt from it, which in turn gives Christianity a very BAD name.
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revdocholiday,
let me repeat that my previous posts were 'in my opinion' and I didn't accuse you of anything. I was just writing what I was thinking. If you took something personal from it then I apologise - that was not my intention.
However, I have found on both of these blogs that the majority of comments on them are useless, and are made by people (some of which by people who've never set foot over the door) trying to stir it up some more.
I don't know if you have ever been/or go to WW, but I would say that if you are a member/regular attender, since you have legitimate concerns over the running of it, that you speak to the pastors there, as I have done. (This isn't meant to sound badly, its just advice... If I was wanting to understand what has gone on & had questions, then I'd ask. Thats all I'm suggesting you do.)
As to GMcK leaving - only GMcK/PMcC can answer that.. But, given past history, GMcK may be the most truthful out of the two.
The reality is that the whole truth won't ever come out.
WW has acknowledged that mistakes have been made and that they need to learn from them, and move on...whether that happens while PMcC is there though is another matter.
Maybe its time we all left them to get on with it??
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Hi ReubenSmith,
"How did someone manage to get the moderators to take my questions off air?
There was no statements only genuine serious questions! What is going here? Has the moderator been infiltrated??"
Unfortunately, the moderators will remove most posts that people complain about, even id there is little or nothing wrong with them. We've seen that often enough before the WWers showed up on this blog. Someone couldn't find a response to points that were made, thus hit the complaint button. The complain option is often abused just to get inconvenient (often the interesting ones, like your list of questions) posts removed.
Which is very annoying.
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life4god
no friend i was not offended by anything you've posted and yes im a long time member of WW. I have indeed spoke to several of the WW pastors concerning the earthly side of things,ie dates, contracts etc etc, and i agree that alot of the comments posted here are irrelevant. But I was just wanting to know how Pastor G sees things in a spiritual sense. Does he now believe that the Lord has leed him to start another work! Surely even those of you who have went with Pastor G, regardless of how annoyed & hurt you feel at what has taken place,would need some assurance that PCN is where the Lord has led all of you,that indeed the whole thing is by God leading Pastor G and not just a kneejerk reaction! Was there great prayer made as to starting PCN? How did the Lord confirm this to Pastor G? What then of the original call to WW? Do you see what I'm driving at life4god? many good friends of mine are now at PCN & to be honest i'm concerned for them! No reflection on Pastor G meant by last statement!
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post 70... Dear lazy Teacher, no wonder I am poorly educated, it was so-called teacher's like you "that" put me off learning at School.
Why don't you stop wasting the School's time and get on with "real teaching" and please make sure that the Children under your care don't end up poorly educated like me.
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Christian Hippy ... that Belfast Telegraph story added not a single new fact to what's already been claimed on the blog and on the programme. It reads like a summary of Will's main post. Great work, Telegraph!
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I don't like to mention names, pseudonyms don't count for much anyway, but I can't escape the thought that this blog has just gone and gotten rather impolite.
Anyway
John thee Bap
I appreciate your post 76 in response to Graham, but what I'd really like to read is a point by point 1-6 and A-F rebuttal of the case he presents.
Graham thinks (E) is a possibility and doesn't want to be a discouragement, he's being kind, from my point of view if we keep going the way we are going, we're stuffed (obviously not eternally), but nobody's listening; singing lots perhaps, but not listening.
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Seeing my previous post didn't make it. here i go again. I fail to understand why so many professing Christians are harping on and on about the problems in the metropolitan.There are wounded people here. And the Christian church seems to be the only army that buries its wounded. The only thing being damaged here is the cause of Christ. i can just see the devil and the world at large having a good laugh at Christians castigating each other. For goodness sake find something else to talk about. Stop criticising and start praising the Lord who died for us. Isn't Jesus just wonderful.
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belovedanddelivered
i am curious to know how wanting answers to questions becomes criticising. in my opinion this is a storm in a teacup as many things in the past have been covered up which people should have been leaving over, i myself decided to leave and that was after much prayer and God's direction. At the end of the day, this split is over personalities and God see's all. Things can be covered up on earth but one day everything will be revealed and i am only concerned with my reaction to things that were going on at WW but some people still want to cover it up and pretend all is well. it is very curious that reubensmiths questions keep getting deleted. they were ligitimate questions that should be answered.
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"it is very curious that reubensmiths questions keep getting deleted. they were ligitimate questions that should be answered."
Well RAmen to that. Earlier on somebody said something to ReubenSmith like 'you are nosy, you ask a lot of questions, mind your own business, are you even a member of our church, just bugger off'. If I had to take a guess (and would only be guess), some WhiteWeller is on a rather nasty vendetta.
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revdocholiday i noticed you mentioned a few of your friends are now attending the pcn and you are concerned for them i have known pastor g all my life and i csn assure you george is a very sincere man of god who will not only be a pastor to your friends but also a friend but if your really concerned why not come to one of georges services and c for yourself he is in the hilton hotel in templepatrick on sunday because corrs corner is too small now im not asking you to leave whitewell just to come along and c for yourself what the lord is doing in the pcn the worship and praise is amazing and the lord is being glorified and also people are being saved also it was the lord that brought george and his family back from scotland not pastor mcconnell
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(Matthew 5:23-24)Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
How can these men be offering prayer and worship unto God as some of these blogs are stating when scripture (above) clearly teaches that if you have anything against your brother to leave your gift and be reconciled, maybe some dont have a good memory when they bow their heads. Hence my blogger name, totallydismayed maybe it should be totally disillusioned. Christians should be living according to Gods word. Is neither one big enough to go to the other. Pastor McConnell was praying for reconciliation on Sunday but the scripture says go to your brother. No comment from Pastor McKim in belfast telegraph as reported, at least we have heard from Pastor McConnell.
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hi quicktruthteller
thanx for invite,your'e not the first to invite me! maybe sometime but not at the minute!
When I say that i'm concerned for my friends it is not because of what will take place in PCN or the sincerity of Pastor G,It's the fact that PCN exists in the first place that worries me! If you read my last several posts on this blog you will see my reasons!
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POST 82... To BROTHER Peter,
what will be left of Evangelicalism = EVERYTHING.
A, From the early 1600s there has always been different strands of Evangelical Churches "BUT" to say its over is misleading.
B, To say that so-called Orthodoxy believes in the Gospel of Grace ALONE is FALSE, why? because every Orthodox priest does believe in grace + works unto salvation "not" GRACE ALONE.
C, The Pentecostal Church has been in Ireland from 1915 & been very successful, so to say that Evangelicals are waiting to die within the next 10 years is not correct.
D, Just not the case, look at South America.
E, Again, what's new, look at the good old USA.
F, There has always been clear HERESY or RELATIVISM and CONFUSION right from the very start off so-called Pentecostalism.
These are very quick responses from ME, to someone else's thesis and not plagiarized by the LAZY TEACHER...GV.
Lastly... The EVANGELICAL CHURCH will always go on, even if there's splits in it.
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85. At 7:58pm on 22 Jun 2009, PeterKlaver wrote:
Well RAmen to that. Earlier on somebody said something to ReubenSmith like 'you are nosy, you ask a lot of questions, mind your own business, are you even a member of our church, just bugger off'. If I had to take a guess (and would only be guess), some WhiteWeller is on a rather nasty vendetta.
I dont think it is a nastsy vendetta at all, the whole thing is just rather boring now. Thought I would leave you all with this, Ephesians 5 1/2 - Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; AND WALK IN LOVE, AS CHRIST ALSO HATH LOVED US, I think it's time to end this, and start praying. Thanks
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ReubenSmith,Comment 91, BORING
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ReubenSmith,Comment 91, BORING
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ReubenSmith,Comment 91, BORING Boring
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ReubenSmith,Comment 91, BORING BLAH BLAH BLAH
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RS, Do you go to Whitwell?
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Ah, first ReubenSmith's post 90 is pulled. Then as I'm reading this thread, truthanator is posting in it and a few seconds later ReubenSmith's post 91 (with the very valid list of questions) is pulled. And Truthanator blasts ReubenSmith for a supposedly boring comment in post 91. Glad to know that no one is on a vendetta then.
The level that some of the WW'ers are on, is so dreadful.
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Well you should know that the pastors meet every morning for prayer at 9.00am, you should go and face them all then. Did you attend the prayer meeting tonight?
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100. At 11:36pm on 22 Jun 2009, PeterKlaver
I suppose you go to whitewell as well?
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"I suppose you go to whitewell as well?"
No, I don't even live in Northern Ireland any longer. Although I might have visited WW some time if I did. Bit like visiting the zoo, go watch these very strange creatures in real life that you've heard and read about. The things that have been posted by WWers here over the past week and a half do amaze me. Very strange creatures.
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You know Wednesday night's are Bible study, very important meeting to get built up in the Lord, I think if you want to leave just go, to lets say the PCN, by the way, you missed a fantastic prayer meeting, and it was packed!!! This is my last Comment! God Bless you RS, pitty I didn't know who you are could come over and have a chat!!!
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105. At 11:47pm on 22 Jun 2009, PeterKlaver wrote:
No, I don't even live in Northern Ireland any longer. Although I might have visited WW some time if I did. Bit like visiting the zoo, go watch these very strange creatures in real life that you've heard and read about. The things that have been posted by WWers here over the past week and a half do amaze me. Very strange creatures.
LOL, very good
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I dont really want to hear from you as God's people need the word. I think u need to move on RS, and that me for the night
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John
Thank you for your reply. I'm now interested in what you think Michael Spencer aka The Internet Monk (check out his blog, it's worth the read) is saying in the article. I get the impression you are answering different questions.
And one more thing, to be honest I'm not so fond of your references to Graham, as I said, the two WW threads have brought a certain impoliteness to the discussion here at WandT. You have a problems with teachers, fair enough, but I doubt that Graham taught you and nor did I, or at least I suspect I didn't, yes, I teach too. So, would it be possible to drop the name calling?
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petermorrow
I find it a bit strange that you are challenging John over alleged name calling and impoliteness to gv. It was Graham who posted many tasteless comments about the trouble at Whitewell and said that English was not John's first language as well as being a few sandwiches short of a picnic. Hardly respectful don't you think? Then again maybe you do.
I think Graham needs to tailor his comments in future and wonder why you have failed to call him to task over his posts? Please reply.
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Concerning post 115, Thank you to "Howmanymiles" for his defence of an ORDINARY PERSON like me.
To my BROTHER Peter, yes! maybe, I was wrong use such language towards your fellow teacher, but having said this, I clearly don't recall saying that all members of teaching staff are lazy, nor did I mention you.
As regards Michael Spencer, he said... I'm not a prophet, my view of Evangelicalism is not authoritative or infallible.
Iam certainly wrong in some of these predictions... end of quote.
Lastly, concerning post 56, if you look very closely at posts 76 & 89
you will find they clearly match each point by Michael Spencer, without using big WORDS to confuse people who are not intellectual.
ps... I really hope that WHITEWELL CHURCH sorts things out, very soon, so that the ENEMIES of the GOSPEL will shut up.
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Dear John
Thank you for the helpful comments. I'm not sure how long it takes you to type up a post. It doesn't take me long enough to qualify as a "lazy teacher". Especially if you're doing a lot of background reading, and saving articles on your laptop etc.
Now - the endless cups of coffee, hatred of paperwork and marking, persistent lateness and complete disorganisation. THOSE things put me in the class of lazy teachers.
GV
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PK
You left Ulster?
GV
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Hi Graham,
"You left Ulster? "
Yes. I did a three year postdoc there in the Physics dept. of QUB, hung on for some months after that, then moved to another postdoc job.
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Must be heartbreaking to leave Europes cultural hub behind.
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Lastly, to GV, It takes me quite a long-time to type up a post, as I suffer from, very sore hands due to Arthritis.
Finally, I really hope and PRAY "that" WHITEWELL CHURCH has a reconcilliation and if not, that both Evangelical Churches will GROW bigger and bigger.
ps...to all, Dan mc vicker the Evangelist's said... that Christian's need to join the tribe of Levi, why? because they really need to leave I out of it.
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red im trying top answer your thoughts on the pcn. first of all maybe all for God got it exactly right when he said that Pastor mckim will not inherit the buildings of ww but the people. lets see if that is the true fullfillment of the prophecy given to Pastor mckim. it wouldnt be the first case in scripture were a prophecy was given and it didnt exactly work out like the people thought it would even those to whom the prophecy was given!!! think abraham think issaac regarding esau t5hink david being annointed by samuel and everyone thinking that he would be king straight away he had to wait 14 years for that to happen and david had to hide in a cave (adullam) reminiscient of pastor mckim having to hide in corrs corner? saul still acknowledged as the king of israel yet rejected by God but still carrying out that office. david meanwhile gathering a people around himself in adullam waiting 14 years to inherit the title king of israel and in that cave winning the hearts and minds of the people ( maybe again reminiscient of pastor mckim doing the same in corrs corner nowere yet to call his own) but david still the annointed one and the one whom the prophecy was given that he will be king, though not as everyone thought were the general consensus would be that david would inherit israel straight away. now lets follow your line of tghought red and follow it through. why after david was called to be king of israel did he have to leave the kings court? (Pastor mckim leaving whitewell) why did he have to take shelter in the land of the phillistines israels hated enemies if he was called to be king of israel/? (pastor mckim in a place such as corrs corner hotel) surely the prophecy given to david was from the Lord then why did he have to leave israel? surely by your reckoning red he should have stayed in israel and claimed the throne. alas our ways are not his ways our thoughts are not his thoughts but one thing is sure His will will be done. maybe as all for God said the prophecy will come true and pator mckim will inherit the ww people but not the building. check also the story of moses for confirmation. did not moses think when it was revealed to him that he would be the deliverer of his people that he immediateley rose up against the egyptian taskmasters and killed one of them with his own hands that the people would immediateley follow him? no another 40 years had to take place for that although it did not make his calling any less certain!!! as for david it was to dangerous for him to stay in the land of israel and to claim the throne hence he had to flee the land(maybe agin another similarity with pastor mckim maybe it was to dangerous for him to stay in ww) but if your interested in the prophecy ask your own pastor did he hear the Spirit tell him that pastor mckim was to take over ww in october or not? and did he not say that this was the case? and if the case why will it not now be happening? maybe pcn is the gathering of the people like the cave of addullam was for david until he reaches the fullfillment of inheriting ww or israel like david who knows but all anybody knows is that david in addullam had to live like an outlaw and to the outside world he was finished. but the sure word of the Lord came to pass and it will in this case to.
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Truthanator
you should turn up at 9am for the prayer meeting and see how many pastors actually arrive after you! heard it all before. think you sum up the WW attitude. everyone else is wrong but you and to quote scripture about loving each other and then write blah blah blah to a brother/sister is a disgrace, WW no doubt is proud of its membership with the attitudes displayed through some of these blogs.
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by the way red talking of king david now he was musical director!!
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totallydismayed
Actually, I have been in the church at that time and they are there! lets get the facts right and stop listening to other peoples gossip, and this is all this blogg is about nasty gossip. God bless
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"stop listening to other peoples gossip, and this is all this blogg is about nasty gossip"
I wouldn't say that of the bog in general. Don't take my word for it, check some older threads. But yeah, the two threads that have seen the greatest influx of Whitewellers have been the scene of gossip, innuendo, accusations, anger, moronic stupidity, censorship and low blows. I'll quote a phrase that came up earlier, as it sums it up so well:
"The greatest argument against christianity is christians"
I grew up in a christian family but ditched christianity in my teenage years. When I see what some of the devout christians from WW are like, it makes me feel so good about that.
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To PETERKLAVER, sorry to here that you are very disappointed with RELIGION, "but" always remember, you cannot ditch CHRIST JESUS, maybe for a short-time on Earth, but having said this... weither you live or weither you die, the Bible says, you belong to the Lord, don't put your trust in Religion "but" in Christ JESUS the sinless man.
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Hi secondmcculough,
OH the music director thing again lol
Dont have much time to respond in lenght at the moment,but will later on! but just a couple of points;
1/I didn't realise that an actual prophecy had been given concerning Pastor G coming!
2/ I didn't realise that King Saul had announced that David was to be his successor,but will read relevant scripture later on so as to get a better idea where your coming from!
3/I didn't realise Pastor G was in fear for his life and that is why he's now left!
4/I always thought that God spoke first to Moses at the burning bush AFTER he killed the egyptian!
5/Pastor Mc has alread stated that he believes that Pastor G IS STILL THE MAN!
6/Does dates being changed & problems with wording on contracts constitute 'danger'?
7/ So is PCN a temporary respite until the 'prophecy' is fulfilled?
8/Has Pastor G actually said words to that effect?
9/Not that i'm defending Pastor Mc but if anyone is being treated like an 'outlaw' its him!
10/ I think that yout playing a bit fast and loose with the word "similarity"
will get a chance to get back on later but thanks for responding Friend, again i emphasize that I'm not anti Pastor G, AND I for one would be very glad to see him back where he belongs, in my opinion!!
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Hello johntheebap,
Christians are a good but not the only reason to turn away from christianity for me. If the effects of (organised) religion weren't as unpleasant as they are, then there are still strong considerations wrt to the rational basis of christianity that make me reject it.
And there is actually quite some overlap here between the posts by WWers and lack of rationally reasoned arguments.
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reply to red
point 1 for a long time their were prophecies concerning pastor mckim going right bact back to the late 80's also concerning prophecies on young men in ww read the pastors book light on a hill concerning david purse who is now in the elim fellowship and not ww!! selah (maybe another prophecy that had to be fullfilled in a differnt way?)
point2 every one knew that david was to be king including sauls own son jonathan!! so are you trying to say that if sauls son knew who would be king that saul didnt? by the way as sauls son he was next in line to the throne!!
point3 well obviously pastor mckim felt danger are else he would still be there
point4 read hebrews 11 the faith chapter and it will tell you that moses at that point when he killed the slavemaster that he thought at that point that he was ready to deliver israel always good to compare scriptyre with scripure very revealing and that the burning bush is when God made know and revealed Himself to moses not the 1st time He had spoken to him. did not moses realise that his skin was different to an egyptian'S? did h not hear how he was miraculiosly delivered when all the male hebrews of his age were killed? selah
point5 pastor mcconnell has saaid things before and changed his mind i beleive that this point dosnt even need to be answered any one who goes to ww will know this
point6 as said pator george feels that their moust have beendanger or else why leave the man he looked up to as his spiritual father. by the way david still looked uo the saul after he was trying to kill him and in the cave when he could have killed him called him the lords annointed and saul even cried and called himself an unreasonable man yet david never felt it safe to go back to the court of saul? was david wrong?
point 7 time will tell
point 8 no
point 9 outlaw? well pastor mcconnell is still in his church and buildings and its pastor mckim is having to exist moving from hotel to hotel.
on the subject of jonathan sauls son jonathan followed his father out of loyalaity right to the end and died at the hands of the phillistines now if he had followed david who he knew to be the rightfull man of God what would he have achieved for the kingdom? and as said david called saul even after the Lord had left him the annointed so maybe you need to think on these things and pray on these things and make sure you follow the right one instead of blind loyalty because time will tell if a lot of people could end up like jonathan selah
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Er, Okay, this is all quite surreal. John the Baptist has arthritis in his fingers, so it must take ME a long time to write a post. This makes me lazy, and explains why he didn't enjoy school.
If you can be bothered looking back, you can see that I tried repeatedly to engage John in a friendly manner. I seriously thought that he might be foreign as I can't see how he took offence. I included LOLs and smileys! Dom Jolly got the joke!
Then HowManyMiles resurfaces, attacking the man and not the ball. He is determined to remain offended.(I'm deliberately NOT trying to work out or find out who he is. The pseudonym alone would narrow the search.)PM and I know each other, and have discussed how to respond to the damage that many WW posts have done to Christian Witness here on W&T. If you red PK and Helio you might have picked up the extent of that damage.
Now if Sam or Rev Doc reprimanded me, I'd pay attention. But you re-wrote the hokey-kokey to insult an entire Church. My satire was aimed, once more, at posts. Which were very personal and nasty, and lobbed from behind pseudonyms. Once more, it was not aimed at WhiteWell Church - I've had good conversations with a few WhiteWellers on the nature of the Church and a way forward. If I've offended any at WW who are not excited by this row, or whose tempers did not break over personalities, **then I apologise unreservedly.** My target was, and is, the ridiculous and nasty posts that emerged a week and a half ago.
GV
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This is not meant as an attack on anyone and I honestly mean that, but based on how the comments are developing from Whitewellers and former Whitewellers, I believe there will be no reconciliation. However nothing is impossible for God.
But can I pose some questions? If a reconciliation was to occur what could that mean in practical terms for all the pastors (including the assistants at Whitewell) and also how would the Whitewell members feel about former friends and family returning?
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Not sure what the big story is here..??
So the senior pastor has delayed handing over the reins at the date agreed. Ok.
Neither pastor is having a go at the other.
Both remain in good standing with Elim.
Reminds me of Paul falling out with Barnabus over whether or not to bring Mark along with them. They both went their seperate ways but Paul later softened his heart towards Mark.
Is God telling us in this that, (gasp) his grace and forgiveness even extends to Christian leaders after they fall out?
I wonder just how much of the patronising towards Jim McC in this whole business (including from the BBC) might have to do with jealously towards him and what he has achieved?
Any "intellectuals" out there feel threatened by what a self taught working class Christian can achieve through God?
Scripture says not to entertain accusations against an elder except without 2 or three witnesses.
Take any evidence and go through the proper channels. Sure, they should be accountable, but this is just gossip mongering c/o the BBC.
I mean, its not as if the athiests in Belfast never suffer splits, is it?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/2007/05/the_divided_house_of_humanism.html
OT
PS Klaver, dont start the old trot about me having "multiple identities". My two previous usernames included the capital letters P and B and I was quite open that I had changed the username.
I openly changed it to OT after you wrongly accused me of being a Baptist Pastor from Derry with the same initials. Now as for the multiple identity conversation with Wench Nikkie on the FSM website you had... well I propose to let sleeping dogs lie.
;-)
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Sam
A serious problem emerges.
If WW believes that Pastor McConnell was visited by an angel and has the sort of authority that goes with miraculous visitations in the Bible then WhiteWell is not an Evangelical Church. Even the Pope doesn't claim that sort of authority - that's a simple statement of fact, not an insult. WW still counts as Protestant Fundamentalist. And there's more to the faith than being Evangelical. But this does present a major obstacle to those who want WW to move into a broader,deeper Evangelicalism.
It all depends on the depth and width of this belief in WW. At the moment I'm not contesting the sincerity of the belief or even it's truth (before the horde descends on me). But it is a serious theological problem that you need to think through.
I am concerned that a feeling of loyalty to a congregation, or a Pastor, has taken precedence over other loyalties. This sort of faith in Mr McConnell would explain that. But I still maintain that the majority of the posts here are not a representative sample of the WW Church.
GV
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OT
I've absolutely no problem with self-educated working class Pastors and preachers. That would be my dad and my father-in-law. Paddy Devlin is my one and only political hero.
I don't think that the issue can be reduced to the class war. Yes, there is quite a bit of snobbishness. Yes, Mr McConnell's achievements are very impressive.
And you are right - I can't see the grounds for the fuss. A mistake was made. But there are serious problems here, and they tie into the article I referenced above.
GV
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Having read all your comments from afar it beggars believe that such holy crap! has been said.
Big mac has been a good friend to many . Oh sorry just when you needed him ,or when you stagger into the confessional box about your mirages.The first 23 years of my life were in ww going to sunday school in the orange hall i appreciate those days,the bishop has done more good than bad for his congregation .Occasionally write something healthy Come on get on with your life's oh sorry this is your sad life.
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To gv
The reason I have "resurfaced" is to post comments in response to some of the "satire" that has been written here. Also sorry to disappoint you but I'm not determined to remain offended. Yes some of your comments were offensive to the feelings of Whitewell members since the "satire" you posted was ill timed and unwelcome but maybe that is what Christians need from their brothers and sisters in the Lord at a time of crisis, witty banter which walks the line and not prayer. But Graham I did manage to get over myself.
But I am interested in the fact that you are deliberately NOT trying to work out or find out I am. You say the "pseudonym alone would narrow the search". I doubt that. The reason I use a Pseudonym is simple, I wish my identity to remain anonymous. Before anyone attacks me for revealing details of a person's identity by mentioning the name of a school, may I remind everyone that you gv signed some of your posts with your name and you have stated many times that you teach RE. Hardly the actions of someone wishing to remain anonymous. You choose to tell people your identity, so be it. I do not. Personal choices.
The only reason I came onto the W & T website was to look for information concerning my church. Pretty sad wouldn't you agree? I never intended to post or hang around but the more I read, the more I felt compelled to post a few comments myself. If Whitewell had not had this crisis or this need to hush everything up, then my comments may have never darkened the W & T blog. But now that I'm here, maybe just maybe I'll hang around.
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Secondmccullagh
Where exactly in Heb 11 does it mention Moses killing anyone or That God told him about becoming the deliverer of Israel. Hearing about God saving him as a child & being spoke to by God are not ther same!! PS when you compare scripture with scripture its good to actually read what it says and not add meanings in which are not there!!!
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Guys, just remember this is a public forum, and no I am not a member of WWMC, but I think thowing acusations and collection numbers around a public forum is irresponsible. If you have issues with the pastors why not ask them face to face? Don't hide behind a computer and throw accusations out based on hear-say.
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Howmanymiles- Got something to hide?
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red
hebrews 11 25 26 and 27 Bt Faith moses when he came to years refused to be called the son of pharoahs daughter chhosing rather to suffer afflication with the people of God than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season
BY FAITH he (moses) forsook egypt not fearing the wrath of the king for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible 26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. now red this verse tells you that moses had faith to turn down the throne of egypt!!! faith now this implies that he knew GOD before the bush does it not? and might explain why he killed the egyptian slavemaster because he thought that it was time to deliver the people of God and he was to lead the uprising at that particular time. it was not Gods time but moses had the faith active and believeing before he had to flee egypt which the word of Gopd tells us was done in faith endured seeing Him who was invisible. there is faith active and surprise surprise was in him before the burning bush!!! now the murder of the slavmaster did not make his calling any less certain!! selah
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Paddy Devlin didn't like so-called pompous, highly swollen, individuals who believe in a class system.
Lastly, at least, I don't have Arthritis in my mouth.
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Whoops - my post came across as a threat, didn't it? None intended at all. No, I appreciate the difficulty that you're in.
It was a complaint - it's not nice thinking that someone you knew really has it in for you, so I've tried not to put a face to the posts.
Now it wasn't witty banter (I aimed for witty, but as usual landed on annoying). It wasn't banter. It was aimed at outrageous posts - for example the idea that Christian love can be expressed in a financial settlement. The atheists on the blog would have been quite within their rights to ask me why I might lash Dawkins or PZ Myers, but leave these posts alone.
I should also note that, given the acerbic humour often used on the blog, Peter Klaver and Heliopolitan have behaved impeccably.
But I have found it disturbing that *every* member of WW finds anonymity necesssary. It can't ALL be troublemaking. The only way to explain that is if people are genuinely afraid of others in their Church. So I'm not going to do or say anything that will lead to any nasty f-2-f encounters for WW members. You've got my word on that.
WW does have a lot of generous members. I do hope that your loyalty has not been misplaced. And I hope these last two posts clear up any ill-feeling between us.
GV
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John
I'm very glad to hear that you don't have arthritis in your mouth. I still don't know what your point is, exactly.
GV
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red reply
by the way with regards to your comment about moses killing the slavemaster i was only trying to explain his actions in doing so for why if moses by faith refused the throne of egypt and then killed one of its citizens and one who had control of the israelites would it not be reasonable to assume that at that point in his life he would have felt that the revoloution of 2 million people would be now? or else how other ways can you explain his actions? to kill an egyptian with whom he had been one of his greatest citizens if it was not for the reason i have outlined
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John
Howmanymiles- Got something to hide?
Sorry to be boring but no. No I'm not a elder or pastor at Whitewell attempting to be a whistleblower. Just a former member of the church who simply follows advice found on numerous sites on the net that it's not a bad idea to use a Pseudonym while using blogs.
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Paddy Devlin would have known alright, as he was a true people's person, who was against so-called class systems promoted by the elite, even within the School Systems.
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red reply
now if moses did not know he would be the deliver of the israelites and by faith turned down the throne of egypt or to be king of egypt before he met God at horeb why did he turn down the kingdom of egypt which at this point of time was the greatest empire in the world if he had not the knowledge he would one day deliver his own people israel? after reading heb 11 and the verses quoted are you still telling me that a man of faith and heb 11 is about the supernatural faith did not know before he had to flee egypt that he was to be israels delivererer? read the verses again and then think on that
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Okay, anyone who knows me on the blog knows that I'm anti 11+ and that I'm left-wing on economic issues. I teach in an 11-16 high school so being a snob would get me lynched. But I was raised in Ballybeen, so its never come up.
Paddy Devlin was well read, well educated, and articulate.
I'm still lost as to your point.
GV
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Hang on-
Peter M is your BROTHER, but I'm only a FRIEND! Now I think I get it. You believe I'm hell-bound - is that it?
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Hello Graham,
"You believe I'm hell-bound - is that it? "
Yes, you are hell bound. And it will be even worse than you thunk. Helio and I have made a pact with the devil. We've agreed to sell him our souls if we can be the ones who can pile on the misery on you once you join us in hell. I think for the first few centuries, we will preach to you about how to construct a reasoned, logical argument and then make you re-read some of your own old posts on this blog. It will he hell for you all right.:D
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were is red??
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Secondmccullagh
WHERE is the call in Heb 11? "How do I explain Moses actions" Exodus 2 tells us that Moses saw the "Egyptian beating a Hebrew one of his brethren" Then making sure no-one was watching, he killed him. Then we are told that Moses fled in FEAR as Pharaoh sought to kill him. NO MENTION of a revolution!! or that Moses had any intention of leadership etc etc AT THAT POINT! Moses was probably taught about his true heritage by his mother who became his nurse!
Read the dialogue between God & Moses at the burning bush,are there any indications of a prior encounter between them?
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red you still have not answred me the question on did pastor mconnell tell the people of ww that The Spirit had told him that pastor mckim was to take over at ww in october of this year? and if so and this was stated i dont no if this is the case or not but you could tell me i presume if this is so all the questions in your earlier bloggs should be sent to pastor mconnell regarding your queries why he should do the things you asked in your earler bloggs
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Yep, a few thousand years of your logic - that's a sobering thought PK (-;
LOL
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so red blogg 155 the book of hebrews is wrong BY FAITH he (moses) forsook egypt not fearing the wrath of the king for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible ill repeat again not fearing the wrath of the king. so hebrews is not Holy Ghost inspired because you now say that he fled from egypt!!! theres no calling in hebrews chapter 11!!!! my goodness the whole chapter is a calling out chapter!!! 23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
this whole chapter is about the calling out of individuals and moses was able to refuse the throne of egypt because of the faith God have given him now all biblical scholars agree that the faith spoken of in this cahpter is supernatural faith not the saving faith that brings salvation but a supernatural faith now are we to believe red that moses by a supernatural faith turned down the throne of egypt and had this faith did not have a calling?????? and please note the faith was to turn down pharoahs crown which is 40 years before horeb revelation!!!!11And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.
12And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.
13And when he went out the second day, behold, two men of the Hebrews strove together: and he said to him that did the wrong, Wherefore smitest thou thy fellow?
14And he said, Who made thee a prince and a judge over us? intendest thou to kill me, as thou killedst the Egyptian? And Moses feared, and said, Surely this thing is known.
15Now when Pharaoh heard this thing, he sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from the face of Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian: and he sat down by a well.
hers the full pasage red now were did it say he was frightened of the king??? he was frightened because he realised that his brethern at that moment in time were not ready to be delivered something that moses thought he was ready to lead at that moment in time that is why the fear overtook him nowere does it say he feared the king and the book of hebrews confrims that please read above to show the contrary. in fat your saying there was no call even moses mother had this supernatural faith and were did it come from??? The Lord Himself who birthed it in them. No calling??? didnt know he was to be the delivererer?? i tell you something moses faith at this point in his life we are discussing is mentioned in the same breath as abraham issac jacob noah etc etc i wish i had a call like this in my life which according to you isnt one
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
sorr y that should read "Most members believe apostle with a special gifting as an evangelist, but very much FALLIBLE and should be respected as such"
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Second & Revdoc - I think Acts 6:25 is the part of Hebrews 11 you're looking for!!
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red 22And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
23And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.
at 40 red what came into his heart? to visit or to lead his peoplehe thought at this moment in his life he was ready but God had to bring him into wilderness and there be humbled rember when The Lord asked him to go into egypt? he said he wasnt a talker yet 40 years earlier confirmed in scripture he was mighty in words!!! yet red your getting me off the beaten track you have not answered did The Spirit tell pastor mcconnell that george was to be his successor and this was to take place in october of this year? did he announce this as being the case? as said if he did and this is true and can be confrimed by people inww as the case then the questions you asked in your blogg here repeted 1/Is pastor G still convinced that the Holy Spirit has called him to be the sucessor at WW? If so then is PCN A 'time out' till he returns to WW?
2/Did he agree when Pastor Mc announced that the Holy Spirit was responsible for the infamous "October date" ie did the Spirit tell him(for want of a better word) the same thing?
3/If the Spirit has called him to WW, why has he left? did the Spirit tell him to leave and start another church? Is God not bigger than all the difficulties he states that he was having,no matter how bad they were? "if God be for us who can be against us" Rom 8:32
4/If it is Gods will for him to start another church, then was the original call to come to WW wrong,or did he get it wrong,did Pastor Mc get it wrong in the first place to approach him?
5/Has Pastor G made any statements regarding the role of the Holy Soirit in all
maybe you should ask pastor mcconnell who i believe (though cannot say as certainity as never heard the man say it) told the congregation pastor george was to take over in october of this year and this was told him by the Lord Himself. as said in my earlier blogg concerning david and saul maybe it was confirmed to george by the The Lord though in a way that none of the people of ww forsaw as it was the people not the building who was promised to George. if pastor mcconnell decided that The Lord never told him that george was to take over in october then red how could george take over ww now and even in the future??? was it possible for him to evict pator mcconnell?? i think not as anyone who knows pastor mcconeel and the leadership who are with him who only do his bidding they are not leaders as they never raise one voice in dissent and only tell you what pastor mcconnell says. have they no mind of their own?? but would george have been safe in this enviroment?? check what has happened to other people who have raised their voice of concern in the past. yes you have guessed it no longer there. God help the man who goes against norman hobson in the church as i believe he has been the ruin of many a good person and this crisis in ww i beleieve has his hand all over it!!!
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Sam
Right - so the commitment to Mr McConnell's authority is not quite so radical as it sounds for most members. He's just seen as very gifted, and that he's made a lot of effort. And knowing him personally, there is an emotional attachment.
That's not so bad, and the commitment will obviously fade after Mr McConnell steps down, retires, or whatever.
Oddly enough reconciliation may be more likely if the worst accusations have been posted pseudonymoulsy on a blog. Once people have made public statements they will do somersaults to justify them and stand by them. But I'm speaking about the confines of human nature of course. God's omnipotent. Yes, reconciliation would be best. And it isn't *impossible*. For Christians, that's encouraging.
GV
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Sam
So maybe the trick is - keep reconciliation possible. Discourage Mr McKim from buying premises for his congregation. Encourage progressives to stay at WW, but not to be activist. Learn, study, pray, wait.Be prepared to wait years.
That's one plan anyway. Easy to say on the outside, I suppose.
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secondmccullagh I have to ask, are you really trying to pass this theory off as what the text is saying or is it a wind up?
NO WHERE in the text of Exodus is there any mention of Moses having a prior calling to lead the people NO WHERE!!
Why then was Moses afraid? Because he "realised the people were not ready to be delivered"! NONSENSE
Moses was afraid and said "surely this thing is known" known to whom? His own people,why would he be afraid of them? Obviously Pharaoh, WHO THEN SOUGHT TO KILL HIM, so he fled FROM THE FACE OF PHARAOH. Why did he flee from Pharaoh? CAUSE PHARAOH WANTED TO KILL HIM!
When God spoke to Moses at the burning bush Moses actually tries to plead with God different reasons,actually excuses, why he wasn't the man for the Job! Not the words of someone with faith who already knew the call of God!cf Exd 3:11,13. 4:1,10 infact he even makes God angry by his LACK OF FAITH! Exd4:14
Also as God spoke to Moses he states that he has heard the cry of his people.WHEN DO WE READ THAT THE PEOPLE CRIED UNTO GOD & that God heard their cry? Exd 3:23-25 AFTER Moses had already fled!!
God called Moses in Exd4:10 see also v12!
"The whole ch of Hed 11 is about calling" In my Bible the word 'calling' only appears once in that chp!v8 ie Abraham.
Also,according to your theory a man of supernatural faith MURDERED another human being! mmmmmmm
Anyway as to when where and how much Faith Moses may have had, there's absolutely nothing in the texts of Exd or Heb that teaches us he had any knowledge whatsoever that he was to lead the Hebrews out of Egypt,prior to the burning bush!
still not sure if this is a wind-up or not!
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red your having a laugh
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Rev and Second
Isn't it entirely possible that someone thought the Holy Spirit was telling them something - and for that person to be genuinely *mistaken*?
And isn't it possible for someone to have the gifts of, say, evangelism, tongues and teaching, and to *think* that they have the gift of prophecy - and to be mistaken on the last point?
And isn't making a *mistake* about a prophecy rather different than being a false prophet? (Who willfully lied, or knowingly connived with "dark powers" and idols).
And should we use the extraordinary prophets like Moses and Elijah as a model for understanding the "run of the mill" prophets, who are surprisingly common in scripture, but who don't have the same historical importance?
GV
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red please read hebrews is wrong BY FAITH he (moses) forsook egypt not fearing the wrath of the king for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible so is hebrews wrong?
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was moses scared of pharoah?
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our maybe the king and phaoroah are two different people!!!
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red as for the cry of the people well they were in egypt nearlt 400 years and are you now telling me that it was only in 360th year that they began to realise they were slaves??? rember moses killed a slavemaster!!! so the people never groaned under the burden until after moses left egypt?
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and answer the question which i asked about the questions you wanted put to pastor mckim
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sori secondmccullagh, just saw your last post? your'e right we are getting of the point! why do you keep responding to me asking about what Pastor G's thoughts are about the Holy Spirit's role in all of this, by telling me to go and ask Pastor Mc? I'm not out to defend pastor Mc!
Anyway, I had a phone call ealier from a good friend who is at PCN. When I asked him about what Pastor G has said about the role of the Holy Spirit was from his view point,rather than getting all defensive like some here, he was able to tell me that Pastor G believes his call was to come back to NI, but that he mistakingly thought it was WW! There, that actually clarifies all I wanted to know. My friend who knows me well Knows that I was sincerely wanting to know this without attacking Pastor G or take sides with PastorMc!!
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By the way secondmccullough I think your attitude towards Norman is disgraceful!
" WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE ANOTHER'S SERVANT? TO HIS OWN MASTER HE STANDS OR FALLS." Rom14:4
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red ill use the amplified bible to show you because i dont think you can read the king james version 23[Prompted] by faith Moses, after his birth, was kept concealed for three months by his parents, because they saw how comely the child was; and they were not overawed and terrified by the king's decree.(N)
24[Aroused] by faith Moses, when he had grown to maturity and [f]become great, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,(O)
25Because he preferred to share the oppression [suffer the hardships] and bear the shame of the people of God rather than to have the fleeting enjoyment of a sinful life.
26He considered the contempt and abuse and shame [borne for] the Christ (the Messiah Who was to come) to be greater wealth than all the treasures of Egypt, for he looked forward and away to the reward (recompense).
27[Motivated] by faith he left Egypt behind him, being unawed and undismayed by the wrath of the king; for he never flinched but held staunchly to his purpose and endured steadfastly as one who gazed on Him Who is invisible now this next scriptures is from the boof of acts there verese numbered now amplified means blown up now listen to what it says 18Until [the time when] there arose over Egypt another and a different king who did not know Joseph [neither knowing his history and services nor recognizing his merits].(O)
19He dealt treacherously with and defrauded our race; he abused and oppressed our forefathers, forcing them to expose their babies so that they might not be kept alive.(P)
20At this juncture Moses was born, and was exceedingly beautiful in God's sight. For three months he was nurtured in his father's house;(Q)
21Then when he was exposed [to perish], the daughter of Pharaoh rescued him and took him and reared him as her own son.(R)
22So Moses was educated in all the wisdom and culture of the Egyptians, and he was mighty (powerful) in his speech and deeds.
23And when he was in his fortieth year, it came into his heart to visit his kinsmen the children of Israel [[d]to help them and to care for them].
24And on seeing one of them being unjustly treated, he defended the oppressed man and avenged him by striking down the Egyptian and slaying [him].
25He expected his brethren to understand that God was granting them deliverance by his hand [taking it for granted that they would accept him]; but they did not understand.
now this makes the exodus narrative tie in with the hebrews ch 11 that moses already had supernatural faith (bit like the story of elijah when the drought it is told in the book of kings was 3 years yet in the book of james it says 3 years 6 months no contradiction just in the book of kings when elijah told ahab no rain there already hadnt been rain for 6 months) so you see red i am not a nut and i am not winding you up perhaps the apostle paul is though and maybe dr luke in the book of acts
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What a surreal world from behind the curtains of ballybeen, I don't believe it, working class snob with loyalists overtones who has a Nationlist for a hero, WHAT THE BARNACLES!.
Now, Iam really confused.
I think someone's going to get lunched "SORRY" I mean lynched by his own mixed up words, which explains SIR'S reasoning.
PS... If you accept CHRIST as your SAVIOUR, you will not have to live in the place where people are destroyed by logic and believe me, its worse than Ballybeen.
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in fact red you say that moses never knew he was to deliver the people of israel get your bible out again now this is from acts 7 verses suppiled 22And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
23And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.
24And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:
25For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not. did u get that red???? for he supposed his brethern supposed that \God would deliver them by his hand!!!!!! now when was this time?? yes red at the time he killed the slavemaster!!!!!!! no your right red moses didnt mo of his calling and now i will admit that im winding you up so is Dr Luke and so is the apostle paul sorry red
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red as for your comments on norman hobson the scripture says by your fruits you will know them!!! so i can judge him by his fruits
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red please respond to if im right or wrong about moses knowing he was to deliver israel before horeb
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and as for your saying that a man with supernatural faith killing someone mmmmmmmmmm and that was you reaction well when david went out aggaianst goliath i think that would have been with supernatural faith and what did he do??? yes he killed him!!! samuel the prophet was renowed for his supernatural faith now here was a man that The Lord really did whisper into his ear!!! when agag the king of the amalikites was brought to him after saul didnt kill him what did this man with supernatural faith do he spoke unto him the word of the Lord? no he cut him in pieces selah
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Yes second after reading Acts7:25 it does indeed seem that God was moving in the heart of Moses before Horeb (eat humble pie) & that he had a desire to do something for his people to deliver them! But I still stand that the reason he fled was for fear of his life! Nothing in Acts changes that, but iv'e no trouble conceeding the first point!
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gvale sorry just saw that you had asked me a question. well you are probaly spot on and your 100% right on the question of elijahs and moses because they are definiteley none of them about anymore!!! maybe the prophecy that now is is the word the sure word of prohecy and sometimes as you said run of the mill prophets and i use that word lightly may now be called forthtellers as long as all they say does not go beyond what is said in scripture. gvale can you lie about a prophecy? well i think only if you never received one
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Second, what fruits are you talking about? maybe you know something i dont?
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well if that be so red just remove that we part in hebrews out of the scripture that plainly tells you that he wasnt
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Why not just remove the burning bush account and the fact that God was angry at him?
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27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
can any one help red because even after The Holy Spirit clearly states in His Word that moses did not fear the pharoah she says he did!!! can we have this verse taken out!!!
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red i never said that The Lord wasnt angry with him!!!! and in no way would i like that part removed from the bible being very consious of the revelation were it says about anybody who adds or removes from this book
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red may the Lord bless you and i really mean that and may everything you do may His Hand be upon you. i hope you dont think im getting at you at all because i have enjoyed blogging with you. may God richly bless you
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Apologies one and all this is long, but please consider reading it.
First Howmanymiles!
You asked for a reply, I'm more than happy to do that, but please bear with me and I'll try and explain as best I can. You want to know why I challenged John and not Graham. Well, about a year ago when I first interacted with Graham on this blog I remember giving him a bit of a hard time about one of his views (he might not remember). Anyway after that initial exchange I've got to know Graham a bit better, as I think I have learned a little more about others on here, and, can I say, all this communication business takes time. It involves misunderstanding, clarification, lengthy debate and sometimes apologizing. I've said this already on the other WW thread. You would also know if you'd been around a bit longer that I have asked others to tone down the personal comments as well, things get heated on here and they are not helpful. I have also had to apologize at times and be careful about what I have said.
Now the point of all that is this, when you communicate with people, over time you come to understand their style of writing and the tone of their writing, and I have to say this I don't read Graham's tone as nasty or vindictive. Satire is a regular style of writing on here, as is the lampooning of worldviews and beliefs, as is overstatement, sometimes we have to, to make a point, I've done it, many on here do. Graham has already explained this as he has explained his concerns about the damage these two threads about WW are doing to Christianity, I share this concern; he has also apologised at least twice. So why do I not challange Graham? Cos I'm making a judgement call about what I think he is saying on the basis of a year long interaction.
So why question John? Simple. I want to know how he is using how words. When he says 'lazy' is it a rhetorical device? Does he mean it? Unless I ask, I won't know, you see, I view my participation on this blog as a way of being involved in debate but also as a way of listening to others, as a way of learning. If I ask a question, or explain I don't like something, it's up to the other person to clarify their position, like I'm attempting to do now in response to your question. Actually it's taken me quite a while to figure out how this blog works and to respond accordingly, which leads me on to another important point.
At the risk of being repetitive I'm going to air my concerns again about these two WW threads.
OT, in many ways I agree with you, a dispute about church leadership isn't that big a story, but, look at the response! Almost 800 comments, almost all from completely new bloggers (welcome one and all) to a non story. Not only that, but as I have already stated, they are some of the most divisive comments I have ever read, and from one Christian to another.
Graham tried satire to call attention to it. I have tried simply to ask people to stop and I joked with Helio and PK about it. To no avail. Why is this, I don't know, but I get the impression that few on either side are listening much to the other. Frankly reading this is like listening to playground cat-calls, the only thing I haven't read yet is, 'My pastor's better than your pastor!' (and yet being able as I am to understand the church lingo that more or less is what's being said) My pastor is anointed. Translation. 'my pastor is the real deal and don't you criticize him.' My pastor was called by an angel. Translation, 'that's even better than being anointed'. Does anyone see what I mean?
And so this non event of a story has become the biggest story on here because the members of WW, from whatever side have decided to argue about the relative merits and demerits of their 'man of God' here on WandT while the rest of us watch.
This post is already too long but may I say one more thing at this point. We've had almost 800 comments of people stating their position, often in obscure evangelical language, often in out of context bible quotes and often in religious soundbites, which come across as if the writer thinks they are 'arguments winners', and which no one outside of a particular sect (Evangelicalism) of the Christian church understands. Surely the time has come to start listening to one another, to try to start understanding one another, to try and step into the shoes of your opponent? Maybe the time has come to start asking a few questions rather than making the same points over and over, and I don't mean more questions about finances and church government I mean questions of each other. Questions like, 'What was your experience?' 'Why do you think that?' 'What grieves you?' Try to see this conflict from the point of view of another and stop hiding behind religious lingo and just talk to each other. Reflect on the situation and how you can make this better.
And then when you have done that try to understand how an outsider might see the church as a result of all this. What are they hearing? What stereotypes are being reinforced by church people about the church? What, if anything, of substance is being communicated to others? Do they understand what we call the gospel any better now after all this or have we just shot ourselves in the foot, or perhaps both feet.
Please guys, think about it.
And sorry, but one more question, John I've just read your post 176, I really think you need to clarify what you mean by accepting Jesus and not being destroyed by logic. Honestly, that worries me. It may help to do a bit of background reading on how the apostle John was probably using the word logos in his gospel.
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GVeale
Do you ever work? You've previously stated you can blog during free periods. Does this mean free periods are not part of your working week in which to do other curriculum activities? Really along with all the holidays teachers get what a waste of public money. Ill never take another teacher who tries to defend their holidays seriously again. Also most places of employment restrict unauthorised internet use. Perhaps your school is unaware of how you while away your working day. Surely it could be spent more productively.
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Hi Second, i'm not a she, also friend i'm not denying the truth of heb11:27, but the text of Exd says, Moses was afraid his deed was known,Pharoah wanted to have him killed, Moses FLED before the face of Pharoah! When God called him to go back he made excuses and God got angry with him. So what about Heb11:27, at what point did he forsake egypt?
Could it be that as Heb11:24 states "he refused to be called Pharaoh's daughter" is referring to his life before fleeing? That he had already identifeid himself with his people?
Does v25 not suggest that Moses rejected the sinful aspects of Egyptian life and refrain from them?
Do you think that "suffering affliction with the people of God" refers to after he had fled and sojourned with the priest of midian?
Does 'King' refer to the Pharoah he fled from or the new one who he went before to ask for the release of the people?
As the Word 'Forsook'simply means to leave behind, could this not be referring to the departure with all the people, and the wrath of the king he did not fear was when they where pursued just before crossing the red sea?
What do you think friend? ps I'm away for a barbeque so will catcch you 2mor Second, and i also enjoy blogging, though not so much the WW/PCN stuff, but the Bible ones. Lord bless
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Gveale's pupils rate him on the ratemyteaher website, with a score of 3.9 for overall quality.
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startellitasitis
I see you like to tell it as you think it is.
I'd never attempt to defend my holidays, they're rather good, no doubt about that, but you see when you said you'd never take another teacher seriously again on this issue, would that include those who have punched in another 15 hours or so at home since last Thursday, or those who do a couple of extra hours at night if and when necessary, or those who put up with verbal and physical attacks, or those, God forbid, who work during their holidays?
Just wondering. It's not that it bothers me, it's just that stereotyping people in terms of their jobs is as much of a problem as much as stereotyping the church. Now, who in our society will we pick on next?
I've still a bit more work to do, so I'll go back to it now, and then pop back later to see what you think.
:-)
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All of this present situation at Whitewell needs to be viewed in the context of its history. Whitewell was a member of the Churches of God,a Pentecostal and Evangelical denomination founded in response to the ministry of the late Pastor Gordon Magee. Magee introduced the Oneness Doctrine to Ulster penetcostalism i.e. a rejection of the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, one biblical grounds. Trinitarian hymns and the Trinitarian baptismal formula are not used in the Churches of God.
The Church of God also espouses British Israelism and such teachings are openly proclaimed and held my its members.
If you check the records of Whitewells sermons, both Oneness and British Isarelim feature. Pastor McConnell has also defended Oneness on Radio Ulster in the past - I remember listening to the broadacst in question.
In his desire to become more acceptable in evangelical circles and, I suspect, to further his own agenda, he left the Church of God taking his congregation with him, into Elim.He didn`t bother to tell the congregation however that British Israelism and Oneness are not legitimate positions within Elim. I am surprised that Elim accepted him without asking him to renounce such teachings. Whitewell Church of God was involved in a dispute with the Churches of God over the former building on the Whitwell Road, which belonged to the Churches of God. The seating and stained glass form the former building were "removed" and taken to the new Whitewell Tabernacle.Serious questions were raised at the time about the legality of all this.
So, that is the background to the present dispute. McConnell seems not to sit happily with the concept of responsibilty to any denomination including his present one (Elim), who seem powerless/reluctant to intervene.
I await further developments with great interest!
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I have attended whitewell for 6 years, and although I have many friends there I do not engage in gossip or rumours. So it came as a massive surprise to me when pastor McConnell spoke on the matter of pastor McKim etc. Not having spoken to either of the pastors I cannot judge on something I do not know all the facts about. Some people are taking sides, but I admire both men. They have both done more for the Lord than I probably ever will. Who am I to judge them? Maybe, just maybe God has a purpose in all of this, and more people will be won for Jesus in two different locations!!
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Why did my comments on whitewell appear for a few minutes only to be removed. Did I come too near to the truth??
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Hello "Brother PETER", sorry that you popped off, on just a few things,
1. Stop sticking up for people who are nazi "sorry" I mean nasty, really at the end of the day it certainly does not matter what job They do.
2. Stop implying that I have problems with Teaching Staff from whatever quarter, as I know, that you certainly are a very GOOD Teacher and also the fact is, I have known many, many Teachers and would class them to be FRIENDS.
3. Stop thinking that I know nothing "like" GV, AS HE SAYS, now sorry to say, that you are in danger of STEREOTYPING ME, when I never made any reference about you.
4. Stop reading other meanings into other posts like 176, when some poor soul ends up in HADES all their logic in the world and all the Eternal time on their hands will not save them from such a fate.
5. Stop being repetitive over "Frank" sorry I man Michael Spencer, as I believe my answers were right but short.
6. Stop going on to me about, not doing background study, for example... John's Gospel & ancient Greek = logos which points to theos that clearly points to an acceptance.
Lastly, when I am using the word "Stop", it is not to be misunderstood as any sort of telling off or with any wrong intentions, but one off sadness.
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truthanator
i have been there too, and they were not there! not a rumour, i assure you.
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Hello petermorrow,
"John I've just read your post 176, I really think you need to clarify what you mean by accepting Jesus and not being destroyed by logic. Honestly, that worries me."
You have reason to be worried. In some cases it is not just an individual church member who openly embraces hostility towards logic. There are churches who make such a stance their motto:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/we_arent_going_to_kiss_and_mak.php
Religion can be a very effective brain turn-off. Mentally so much easier, very good for lazy-minded people. So if the lazy option is made out to be good and glorious, then why not go with faith and simply not do too much thinking again? Not that this would ever cause many of our new WW friends to think things through anything, but some of the less nutty christians might want to pause for a moment. Sure, your christianity is not that crazy, but as petermorrow says, should you not be worried that to others it can be such a brain turn-off? Is everyone you share the gospel with going to turn out like you? Or, if you talk to someone who is obviously just not so smart, could you be introducing them to somethig that might let them slide down the 'reason and logic are evil, have brainless faith instead and you'll sail through judgement day when it comes for you' route?
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While I was typing my comment, johntheebap came up with a related point:
"Stop reading other meanings into other posts like 176, when some poor soul ends up in HADES all their logic in the world and all the Eternal time on their hands will not save them from such a fate."
Ah, a wonderful demonstration of christianity being in part founded on fear. Yup, that makes for such a lovely world view. Johntheebap, I hope you don't have kids, for your kids' sake. If you do and if I weren't an atheist, I'd pray for them.
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Lifespaceinvader
On the other blog re: Whitewell you mentioned a name. Where did you get this name from and who is it? I don't understand.
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GV and others - why are you assuming that the bap in johnthebap is an abbrev for baptist. Surely in norn ireland a bap is a large white floury bun which would seem to be a more suitable conclusion!!
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PSALMS CHAPTER 53, VERSES 1 TO 4... The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity:
there is none that doeth good.
God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there was any that did understand, that did seek God.
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.
PSALMS Chapter 9, VERSE 17... The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
To all concerned... STOP, Eating up the GOOD people off the WHITEWELL CHURCH or even the PEOPLE'S CHURCH NEWTOWNABBEY as the Bible has made it clear for all to HEED, get your own lives in ORDER.
last post, from JOHNTHEEBAP.
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sorry bap- just don't rate you as a roll model
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Peter
Point taken re sterotyping however me thinks you do protest to much. Or perhaps GV needs help to work smarter not harder. I'd suggest curtailing the blogging to outside school hours if blogging during free periods means having to catch up with marking etc outside contracted hours. As a professional I've often had to catch up with work in my own time. I guess that's the pressure of the way we have to meet deadlines in todays pace. That said I do think there's merit in giving 100% to your employer but with a work/life balance so your family/church/friends also get 100%. Usually this means when the balance is tipped in favour of one it is work that gets more. I do however stand rebuked (and rightly so) for generalising. God Bless
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I believe that it is the custom for the WWs who post to deliver a battery of insults to those on the retreat. I won't be *READING* W&T either.
Just to save you the bother ...
GV
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GV sori to hear that, although i might not have agreed with all of your points of view, I always found many of your comments well thought out and quite sensible, Lord Bless.
PS dont judge all the WWrs on the basis of some of the bloggers on here!!
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Hi Samson, I think there will prob be some sort of reconciliation at some between PastorMc & G, but if you read my post 173-2nd paragraph i think that pastor G will never become leader at WW! I've also heard of other recent statements that he has made as to why he couldn't/wouldn't take over, which I believe has permanently shut the door regardless of who was originally at fault. I'm not prepared to elaborate on the nature of those statements! Coupled with the hostility between some WWRS & PCN members I think the best we can hope for is a spirit of cordialness!
WW does need to address certain areas ie,accountabilty,openess,doctrinal blackspots etc but really the church needs a period of stability, healing,strengthening,a drawing close to Christ and definite,continual prayer as regards who GOD wants to be the next leader!
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I think the whole situation concerning the defamation of pastor mc Connells character by anonymous mouth pieces AFRAID to use their own names is sickening.Many of my friends and relatives have come to know the Lord Jesus in saving faith through his ministry and i personnally believe his shoes will be hard to fill,as a pastor.The circumstances surrounding the "split"proves only one thing,the incapability and lack of character of pastor McKimm as worthy successor.I hope and pray that pastor Mckimms new enterprise flourishes for Gods glory however WOLVES may have split the flock but God will keep those he has began a good work in.
For a congregation and partial leadership to watch like circling buzzards waiting on an aging man of God weakening then swoop and attempt to destroy the work of God, through that mans faithfullness,is deplorable and those involved in the preplanning devious nature of this attack would do well to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling".
One thing remains certain and that is "God is no mans debtor"and he will provide a man after his own heart to continue where and whenever Pastor McConnell steps down or goes to be with HE whom he has served from a boy.
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Stephen Smith your comments are truly breathtaking!!! the split shows that pastor mckim has no character? how can you make that one out? were is reasoning behind that assumption? pastor mcconnell as you say is the pastor of ww so as the leader of a church and congregation if anything goes wrong with the church as pastor mcconnell has often said the buck stops with the leader!!! are you now disagreeing with your own pastors asumption on leadership? if as you are assuming the wolves have now left and in that assumption your saying people who have been at ww for a long time and only the wheat is left is this what you are saying? only wolves left and the ones who went with pastor mcconnell are wheat?? my goodness some good people have left!! well the whole sorry affair stephen smith was presided over by the leadership of ww who is pastor mcconnell so rather than make your assumptions why do you not ask pastor mcconnell the reasons over the split he presided over and was on his watch?
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stephen smith - the wolves have left? Pastor Bertie Blake is no wolf! you should be ashamed of yourself making comments like that.
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stephen smith
Sori but that's not fair. Some of the people I know who are now at PCN are very Godly,spiritually minded folks.
As for your remarks about Pastor G's mettle, I think he's already proven his worth by 22yrs in Scotland. Try not to get sucked into the Finger pointing trap! It really serves no purpose brother!
Philipians2:3
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Just had the WWMT blaze team at the door they're running football coaching for kids during July.
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Before i contribute more to this spectacle of the division of what was considered one of the most sound and stable churches in the North,let me set a few things straight.
1.I didn t say all who left where wolves.
Obviousely there has been planning to organise a mass walk out and its the schemers who,behind the scenes revel and conive who i refer to as wolves.
2.Its a well known fact that to test a mans character just give him authority.Of course pastor McKimm has been in a position of authority for a long time BUT has he ever had the prospect of such an esteemed position?
For the believers on here who have sat under and been influenced by pastor McConnells teaching and indeed his walk with God,just do one thing.Listen to the mans voice,listen to the hurt and pain which is evident in his tone.How can anyone whether supporter or enemy not be moved by what this mess has done/is doing to him.This could kill him,simple as that.He s a man.But hes a man who has walked with the Lord all his days and the fact remains hes been mightily used.
The congregation split on both sides will be made up of the faithfull and wolves as are all congregations.Good people and bad people.
3.With regards to the comment on pastor Blake,i didn t make any reference to him and have only ever heard good things about him.
Questions remain and most on the outside will never know whats gone on but my point remains the same[it seems to the world] pastor McKimm has simply thrown the toys out of the pram when he realised things wheren t going as he and his supporters had expected.As i said God bless him but he is the aggressor in this and pastor McConnell is the one publicly begging for reconciliation.
MAY GOD HIMSELF BE THE RECONCILER OF THIS MESS AND LETS ALL PRAY THAT THE WHITEWELL PASTORS AND CONGREGATION BECOME,ONCE AGAIN,LIGHTHOUSES OF GODS GLORY IN THIS COUNTRY.
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on a liter note, the grumer and spelllin on this blug is truule terribell. pleas lern to right peopel.
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I can assure you there was no planned walkout or anything else of the sort. Sadly Pastor mc is not blameless in all this, if he had honoured his word we wouldnt be where we are now.Its as simple as that.
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debraards
Actually there was a plan for a 'walkout'! well at least by some members of the choir! One of them told me about it the day before!!!!!
And no it's not as simple as you say considering Pastor G has now said it wasn't God's will for him to take over at WW! I'm not pointing the finger but there's a bit more to consider than Pastor Mc changing his mind about the "timing" of the takeover. He never said Pastor G would never takeover!
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Sori meant to say "Pastor G has now said it wasn't God's will to take over at WW 'IN THE FIRST PLACE'.
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Well Debraards, I can assure you that the walk out that Sunday morning just before the pastor prayed at the end of the service was planned. I watched all the nods to go. All Pastor George had to do is WAIT, but he didn't, God Bless him and the people that followed, but again all he had to do is WAIT.
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stephen_smith post223
Sorry but your remarks in your second point that(in essence) being the Pastor at WW is a more "esteemed position" than what Pastor G had in Falkirk is incorrect! WW may be a bigger,more high profile church, but the position of Pastor at any church,no matter the size,is a very important task to be called to!
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stephen smith. your anger at george mckim goes way beyond righteous anger. as i have asked red before and will hopefully get a answer from you. is it correvct to say that at the meeting were it was announced that pastor mckim was to take over at whitewell in october did pator mcconnell say that The Holy Spirit told him(pastor mcconnell) that pastor george was to take over in october 2009(and i use the date and print it because as what happened subsequently everyone is aware) and that not only did The Holy Spirit tell him but he doubly confirmed this with it is The will of God that this should happen. i cant say if this is the case because i never heard it but if this was said by pastor mcconnell and was confirmed to pastor george by The Lord Himself then when pastor mcconnell had a dramatic u turn (going against what The Lord had told him) then surely pastor mckim was right to leave (forgetting all the machinations that has since came out) because if it was Gods will that pastor george was to take over (confirmed to pastor mcoonnell by the Lord Himself) and announced then if pastor george was to stay then he would have known that it was going against the will of God (because he was told that The Lord HImself had confirmed this by the man who was his spiritual father) so how couild God bless him(pastor george) if it was his eternal plan because when you use termology like it is the will of God then it implies that He has purposed it and he stayed then pastor george would be seen to agreeing and complying in the disobedience of His Mind and plan. now again i express if the words were uttered from pastor mconnells mouth only those at the meeting to announce pastor mckim taking over the church can confirm this. footnote when solomon had walked out of the will of God and taken to himself many wives and their idols his son rehoboam paid the price. rehoboam during his reign split the tribes of israel or the people of God and gave jeroboam the ten tribes. when rehoboam went to get the tribes back he was told that this split was from God and it was His purpose that this was the case. (confirmed by ahijah the prophet) and this was done because solomon (amighty man of God) had went against Gods will. selah
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Hi second,
I was at the meeting on the Monday night when the date was announced. to be honest I cant remember if Pastor MC actually said that the Holy Spirit told him the exact date or If Pastor G said that the date had been confirmed to him aswell.
As about 'going way beyond righteous anger' to this apply to your feelings towards Pastor Norm?
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I have no anger at all towards pastor McKimm,what he does one way or another won t effect me however i ve heard him preach and watched him as he walked around and talked with people with genuine sincerity.What i have is massive disappointment,simply that and feelings for pastor McConnell.
revdocholiday,i did nt say or insinuate that being a pastor was not a responsible or esteemed position however a pastor of 2500+ strong congregation with satelite churches in many countries and multiple daily tv broadcasts etc carries much more responsibility than a pastor of a few hundred as im sure common sense will tell you.No offence intended.
2ndMcCullough,I wasn t at the meeting your refering to however i did hear that pastor McConnell confirmed that pastor McKimm was to succeed him?Again as i keep pointing out,pastor McConnell is only a man,and an aging man at that,can anyone allow him to be wrong?Make a mistake maybe?If this is all true that he genuinely felt that pastor McKimm was the man to take the reins,BUT was wrong,how much more does this expose pastor McKimm to criticism for leading him on IF pastor McKimm now says as quoted "IT WAS NEVER GODS WILL FOR HIM TO TAKE OVER THE WW IN THE FIRST PLACE".Also 2ndMcC the WW is a representation of a new testament local church not Israel and given the above quote the paralell is vastly inappropriate.
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I ve been a believer for only 14 years but from i was first saved i ve noticed massive criticism of WW and pastor McConnell which i can only describe as jealousy.I have many friends who are members of the WW and im aware of pastors McConnells faults, which goes with the territory i suppose[being in the spotlight] but if you read back through the thread ,apart from the atheist gloaters who revel in this, i find it at least significant[for want of a better word] that so very few have decided to glorify God for the GREAT work done in WW over the last 50 years or more but instead have taken the risky position of driving the boot in an old man of God while hes down.May God bless this situation,not because of us but inspite of us.
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stephen smith first of all ww has never had 2500 plus as a congregation never. now you warent at the meeting when it was announced that pastor george was to take over ww in october 2009 but all i have asked was it said that The Lord (Holy Spirit) told me that this was to be the case? nobody has answered this for me. so if it was said that The Holy Spirit has told me this and this was a mistake by an aging man (your words) then what can we deduct from that? pastor mcconnell has said many times over theyears that The Holy Spirit has said things to him and confirmed things to him so what are you saying here stephen smith that what pastor mcconnell has been saying about these confirmations has been mistakes!!! as for you saying that ww is a patern of a new testament church and not israel well then we shall take that up with the apostles who near to a man took the promises from the old testament and allegories and applied them to the church now we know that a lot of them old testament prophecies were giving to the nation of israel because the only scripture that the new testament church that you say is the model you imitate had only the old testament to read and the promises and examples which were in them of which the apostle paul said were for exactly that purpose!! I mean stephen have you never read the apostle paul? all his scripture quotations are from the old testament. read stephen in acts ch 7 read peter on the day of pentecost for references. now if you read what is said about solomon and rehoboam was for an example to what can happen to the man that does not obey the words of his God. and if your saying that israel cannot be applied to the church for a nation or individual why preach or teach from the old testament? then also disregard the book of acts (whose quotations are from the old testament) these things are for an example the apostle paul said and by your eckoning now we should also disregard him!! stephen the question is did the Holy Spirit tell him (pastor mcconnell) or not that george mckim was to take over thats the question. you can say what you like but if this was said and your saying this was a mistake then how many other mistakes have been made when The Holy Spirit has wispered into pastor mconnells ears. and as you are saying it was mistake to say this who has been wispering into pastor mcconnells ears all these years?? if it is the Holy Spirit is it possible to presume that God can actually make a mistake?? it needs to be confirmed one way or the other what exactly wqas said at this meeting forget mistakes it comes down to what was said and who told what.
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as for satelite churches all over the world were are these?? i know of two john thompson in hull and tim bailie in newry!! hardly constitutes satelite churches all over the world!!! now that you mentioned satelite churches your only bringing more nonsense on your own head as you obviously have not been reading the bloggs on this to see how many in ww are asking exactly what happened to these satelite churches all over the world!!!!! were have you been???
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as for jealosoy comments they are beyond belief!!! now as was mentioned in another blogg about the attcks from pastor mcconnel on other churches (presbyterians, church of ireland, most other evangelical churches as they are all dead ducks!!) are we now to interpret these as jeaulous attacks??? are we to say that pastor mcconnel is looking at the presbyterian church with envy because all he does is attack these places? well lets look at a possibility why he may attack the pressbyterians maybe becaus ethey number in around 300,000? and ww numbers in mebership about 1000-1200? what we have have according to ww is 300,000 dead ducks and 1200 on fire christians. though i read in my bible that 120 were able to turn the world up side down!! so maybe we have 301,200 dead ducks!! selah
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pastor norm? red how can he be a pastor if he is a musical director!!!! or is it pastor musical director!!!! come on
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scond.
So that's the fruits your judging this man by?
" Paul must have forgot to list musical director along with all those other sins like " adultery, fornication,SLANDER,A JUDGEMENTAL ATTITUDE etc etc
COME ON WHERE??
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truth yes the youth centre is called the mcconnell centre and what are you saying with reference to the sins? dont get it. what i am saying is musical director is not a full time job in ww now if were saying anything about the role in context of sin it might be laziness and taking money under false pretences (the role created to keep norman in a cushy wee number!!) meaning as a apstor no longer incubent upon you actually visting and caring for your people no you just get a wee piece ready for sunday morning and night that will do you!!! so all the peole who come from their full time jobs on a friday night to practice(without pay or titles like full time musical choir singers!!) and they have to pay into this also for the privilige of singing were two or three are gathered in my name have a collection!!
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Second,
Maybe I'm wrong here,but after reading through your past posts concerning Pastor/music director Norm. Maybe there's some history between the two of you or maybe you've been hurt or let down or something. If that's the case friend then I wont be making any more posts on this issue cause if your personnal feelings are invovled then it wouldn't be right for me to comment any more!!
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9For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God. Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
10For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
maybe just maybe red this is the thing paul was describing the man that dosnt work dosnt eat!!! and read this passage carefully . chargable to none!! worked with their own hands as a tentmaker to pay his own way!!! and on top of this laboured with the gospel among them!!! now thats work. thats comming from work to minister to the people and preparing sermons and studying and working full time. ah that we had a paul now!!!
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2nd McCullough?wwRhino?This will be the last time i reply to annonymous people,lets get it out in the open.
wwrhino,i have no specific details or proof of the numerous allegations your referring to,just rumours,as im sure neither do you,hence your annonymity.However lets not bury our heads in the sand about the 1000s upon 1000s of real life testimonies of people saved and lives changed,miraculously by Gods saving grace through the vessel of pastor McConnells preaching.
2ndMcCullough,again i have to reply to clarify my post because you ve again misread it.I did not say that using parallels between old and new testament was wrong,Jesus of course did it in ref. to Jonah,Abraham etc and as the new testament canon was not completed at the time of the apostles that was the only scripture ref.available.I don t believe however that God has split the WW in comparison to the tribes due to pastor McConnells disobedience.Unless of course your saying the Lord has whispered such in your ears?You still use the paralell despite the quote from pastor McKimm that it was never God will for him to succeed?
In ref to your question about how many other mistakes has pastor McConnell made,i would say many.Just like any other man.If your saved yourself? you ll know firstly that its not wise to suck in everything and anything that pastors spout,test all things?One other thing is evident in your post 2ndMcC and that is your,hatred?resentment?towards pastor McConnell and anyone daring to speak in favour of his character and life long ministry.
Please if your speaking directly to me in future then at least use your full name as i won t reply to people BRAVELY speaking behind masks.
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well stephen smith my name is mcullough and i am not hiding behind anything!!! first it was not Gods will fro george to takeover ww so can you kindly explain why he came back from scotland then if he did not believe this to be the case!!!! called back by pastor mcconnell so lets look at it rationally george will you come back to takeover ww i believe that The Lord has told me this to be the case. yes pator mcconnell i will as i dont beleieve that the Loerd has called me to takeover never the less i will leave my church in scotland and come back to takeover even though i dont believe i am to takeover and this is not Gods will!!!! are you serious stephen!! as for your comment on solomonn again pastor mcconnell always quotes israel leaders as his support for one man leadership and no accountability does not come from the new testament which you claim your a model as all new tesatament churches had leadership structure were the nation of israel had leaders!!!! so please!! as for mistakes thats not the question we all make mistakes but and this is a big but and these were the words purpotley spoken The Holy Spirit told me that george was to over ww!!! now there is man mistakes which everyone has but THERE IS NO MISTAKE WITH GOD so if The holy Spirit told pastor mcconnell that george was to take over then it becomes not a mistake by a man but a mistake by God Himself as it was He who purpotely told pastor mcconnelll!!! THE HOLY SPIRIT TOLD ME THAT GEORGE WAS TO TAKE OVER THE WW CHURCH AND THIS IN OCTOBER 2009. SO DO YOU GET WHAT IM SAYING STEPHEN this was not a mistake by a man this was maistake by God who told pastor mcconnell that this was to be the case. your response is typical of someone in ww when all else just ask how many thousands are being saved? what does your church do? your all dead ducks noone else matters but ww and that revival will only come through this channel. stephen think on this ww has promised revicval for years you are looking to win the country when you cant even win the shore road!!! win the shore road first then win the country!!!! but dont talk a load of nonsense about how many have been blessed and all because there was me thinking that it was The word of God that blessed!!! if ww can criticise other churches and you know this to be the case hence the dead duck usage then why cant others make observations on ww or is this the case that you are actually above critism because you are the only church!!! niot the case stephen look about you ww numbers among the lowest of the other congrgations as if you were to put all the frree ps in one church they would number around 10,000 elim roughly 6000 presbyterians 300,000!! ww church 1200. no resentment stephen seems to me that you are being to defensive the man protests to much!!! and you have put on the militant hat and come out fighting!!! what are you fighting for stephen? and are we to mark success by the number of people who are blessed by a man? then millions claim they are blessed by the pope and in your reasoning are we to say that he is a mighty man of God? look at the millions who come to see him and to get his blessing!!! so come on stephen settle down calm down and respond to bloggs in a reasonable manner should i say christian manner. when have i mentioned hatred for pastor mcconnell? resentment.? and i see that you did not even repley to the satalite churches you support!!! because this is reducing to church in the singular!!! well stephen you keep up the good work bnecause i know you wont reply just because you dont know my first name!!! by the way do you know apostle pauls second name?? maybe you shouldnt read him either as he has the audaucity to only go under the title paul!!! how dare he!! well to you stephen i will ley you call me mr mccullough hows that for revelation!!
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stephen footnote The Lord did whisper in my ear about the split. Oh sorry it was a mistake!!!
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Second,
It's hard to tell just by reading posts,what a person's tone & motives are! But as your brother in Christ let me say if you feel you can make these judgement calls on Pastor Norm, which is what they are when one reads all that you've posted,and if you feel that you are justified in this & that the scriptures you have just quoted aswell as "by their fruits you shall know them",actually apply to pastor Norm,and that also by making these remarks that you are not breaking the scriptures concerning judging people,ie Jn 7:24, Mat7:1-5,Rom 14:4,Philp2:3 etc,and that your motives are pure in this matter.
If you can still get down before God to pray without hesitation, then that's your call brother.
You have your own walk with God
"If our hearts do not condemn us then we have confidence towards God"
Lord bless ya second.
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To the fearful resentful MR McCullough why are you so afraid to mention your first name?It seems you probably wouldn t be as mouthy or self righteous when people who know you read your criticism of others."Take the plank out"maybe?
For your information i am not never have been and most likely never will be a member of the WW however i am aware of its good and bad points as i have many friends who are members.
You mention the catholic church and the pope etc.Not many of the millions will hear the gospel there.Numbers was never my point,faithfullness to the preaching of the gospel was my reason for defending an old and respected man of God.You lack decernment and courage for obviousely sitting in the WW for so long knowing detailed accounts of its problems and people on a weekly basis yet not knowing to leave?Instead letting resentment build in you to the extent you have shown and using your common surname to hide behind while unleasing a barage of hatred on paster McConnel.Mr McCullough,, not for the sake of being right or letting loose or whatever the issues are i think its expedient for the sake of the gospel to stop posting on this blog.
May God bless you Mr McCullough.
ps Saul OF Tarsus=Paul,he was easily identifiable.Mr McCullough of where?
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Footnote Mr McCullough,you never answered my question to you,ARE YOU SAVED?
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Stephensmith
Brother be careful not to get caught up in making judgment calls on others!
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so stephen the apostle paul is easily identifiable because he was saul of tarsus!!!! stephen tarsus was a place lol so saul /paul was the only saul in tarsus!!! well im mccullough from belfast so that would make me easily identifiable!!! lol
as there is only one person with the name mccullough in belfast!!!
and as for the rest well to quote your good self the many thousands upon thousands who have been blessed by pastor mcconnell's preaching well millions upon millions have been blessed by the pope!! whether you want to admit that or not is your concern but i have been in catholic homes and seen many pictures of the man hung up on walls and i have yet to see this happening with pastor mcconnell!! and if you ask these people who have the pictures of the pope they say they have been blessed by the man and are you saying that they havent!!1 and this is because he does not preach a gospel. well he recently spoke out against homosexuality and other things so he has preached!!! but this is not the point is it stephen. yes i used to go to ww and i no longer go because of things but thats neither here nor there but i do expect you to give me credit for the courage of my conviction!! stephen i fear that you have become to millitant with some of your responses and i see that the scriptures i put on have not been repleid to in respect of how paul laboured and put no burden on the people financially!! but like red before you who actually never knew that moses was awa re before he had to flee egypt that he was the promised deliverer. maybe just maybe if more people read the good book then they would not easily be taken in with The Lord wispered in my ear thing!!! and instead of taking mans word for something they would have the good word sure prophecy which i beleive to be the bible. maybe less mistakes would be made do you not think?
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God bless you Mr McCullough i will pray for you.
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thanks stephen but i will add one thing truth is concerned for your well being and as you have asked the lORD to bless me may He bless you to stephen
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Lads can I just say how entertaining your mud-slinging was this afternoon! Lets all take our spiritual caps off for the moment and have a laugh!
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second
I do read the good book,(another judgement call)?my only mistake was to reply to you too quick with taking a bit of time to study. But as you never answered my last post on the issue of Moses or some of the other ones, maybe you would like to respond now.
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second,
Have you ever the Good books verses concerning humility??
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sorr y red have to get back to you about judging. so no one can judge now is that it? reminds me of the man who was ujp in court and was asked by the judge had he anything to say to which the man in the dock said yes your honour judge not that you be not judged!!! in fact the good book throughout tells us to test things(judge) or r verse like this by this shall ye know them so the scripture gives us the guidelines to judge and guage a person. now i know you love ould norman and believe he does a splendid job in the church with his one night a week preparing the people to sing 2 songs on a sunday night. now as has been stated he stays behind to put out the ucb channell and the editing of that so he has a tiring friday night\!!! terrible now as i keep asking how long has the ww choir been going? was there a need to appoint a full time director to the church when this was done many years before without the need for this full time post. i ahve no gripe with anybody red all im asking is can you justify someone leaving the pastorate to take up a position which you were already fullfilling but now do this on a full time basis meaning that the other side of the christian ministry which you must have been called to or else why come into it in the first place??? the apostles told the church to choose out from among themselves deacons so that they could give themselves to the ministry of the word. did you get that red the ministry of the word. now the early church was a singing church and they contiued to sing and praise God but thsi did not add to the apostles(those called to the ministry, modern day pastors without the uniqueness they had or evn The Spirit) another bow to their string by saying we need to give ourselves to singing!!! they did not say that THE WORD GAVE THEMSELVES TO THE WORD!!! now has anybody heard norman preach? then if he cant why be in the ministry. is he good and encouraging? well maybe but make sure you dont go for any position that norman wants and then you will see how nice he is. the bottom line is the ministry he has is not full time nor should it be and if he and a lot other of the pastors were in any other church they would be deacons at the very best. and this is were i can base my facts from the 9 of them how many of them actually minister to the church apart from the odd time possibly michael bunting (once a year)? could that be done as deacon? i think there are a lot of deacons in other churches who minister 2 0r 3 times in the month and this is done on a part time basis. i have already quoted the apostle paul about taking nothing from no man so as not to be burden to you. pastor mcconnell aside the others could be done without. if they warent there would the church notice? even if norman was not full time in the church but came on a friday night with the rest of the church would the church notice he was now not full time? would it make a difference. these are my questions red not critisms questions. apart from pastor mcconnell the others are dispensible pastor mcconnell is indispensible but they are not
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Here's the post for you again,
friend i'm not denying the truth of heb11:27, but the text of Exd says, Moses was afraid his deed was known,Pharoah wanted to have him killed, Moses FLED before the face of Pharoah! When God called him to go back he made excuses and God got angry with him. So what about Heb11:27, at what point did he forsake egypt?
Could it be that as Heb11:24 states "he refused to be called Pharaoh's daughter" is referring to his life before fleeing? That he had already identifeid himself with his people?
Does v25 not suggest that Moses rejected the sinful aspects of Egyptian life and refrain from them?
Do you think that "suffering affliction with the people of God" refers to after he had fled and sojourned with the priest of midian?
Does 'King' refer to the Pharoah he fled from or the new one who he went before to ask for the release of the people?
As the Word 'Forsook'simply means to leave behind, could this not be referring to the departure with all the people, and the wrath of the king he did not fear was when they where pursued just before crossing the red sea?
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I'm missing Stephen Smith..his blogs properly crack me up. Right I'm off to the pub..
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again second you go from attacking his position and then his character ie SEE HOW NICE HE IS WHEN YOU GO FOR THE SAME POSITION AS HIM. can you not see the folly of this. sorry i'm starting to do what I said i wouldn't earlier.Right i'm finished with the Whole Norman thing. I have to go out now but will be on later!
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What does The Word of God say about liars? Lies and deceit abound in WW, Are they excempt from the judgement of a Trice Holy God?
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ok red here goes 24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
this is in chronological order of his life so verse 27 is when he forsook egypt do you see this? then verse 28 speaks of the time when he was back in egypt. so do you see the order of things here in verse 27 he forsook egypt not fearing the wrath of the king then lo and behold hes back in egypt in verse 28!!! and how do we know he is beacuse hes holding the passover and the slain of the firstborn which hapeened in egypt!!! so the not fearing the king is actually when he left and went into midian. now do you get that red hebrew is telling moses life in chronoloigal order. so that answers your question o0n was it the second king he did not fear.(well it should but no doubt you will come vback and say im wrong)
Could it be that as Heb11:24 states "he refused to be called Pharaoh's daughter" is referring to his life before fleeing? That he had already identifeid himself with his people? yes
Does v25 not suggest that Moses rejected the sinful aspects of Egyptian life and refrain from them? of course
Do you think that "suffering affliction with the people of God" refers to after he had fled and sojourned with the priest of midian? now this is a good one. lets ask you here red who were the people of God people means more than one are you suggesting that the people of God is not the nation of israel? priest equals one now if it was refering to the priest (singular) would we have to cahnge this verse to he suffered with the person of God? no were does it say that this priest was of the God of Israel by the way.
Does 'King' refer to the Pharoah he fled from or the new one who he went before to ask for the release of the people?
As the Word 'Forsook'simply means to leave behind, could this not be referring to the departure with all the people, and the wrath of the king he did not fear was when they where pursued just before crossing the red sea?
i think i have answered these questions with the chronoligal order of heb 11
as for moses. well red do you know who is beleieved to have written the book of exodus? yes red it was moses!!! now like all humble servants of The Lord im sure he did not want to potray himself as some superman and wanted to show his weaknesses as you know the esteem in which the nation regarded this man of God. so maybe red do you think moses wanted to give God all the glory when he penned this book?? now moses and what he done he would leave to others to write and heb 11 written by Paul well the shackles are off and paul spoke of moses as the man of God he was and moses himself did not want to potray himself as some superman do you not think red?
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oops sorry spelling mistake.. thrice Holy God.
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ok i've had my friday after work pint............atms folded....waiting for the return of stephen smith.............
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i meant arms folded!
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i think one of the new rules of this blog is that everyone should write in Norn Iron. Here's an example:
Hey youson's, oi like. know what i mean like. i want yous all to know that i'm right and everybody else is wrong so they are. you're not right so you're not. i am, so i am. so there it is, so it is. do ya's get my point like? Give ma head pace. I'm no dozer.
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Just back from work and i ve been thinking about these "secret" bloggers and pros and cons of the internet etc.
First let me say this anything pastor McConnell has said and will say about the catholic church,presbyterian,homosexuals,etc etc he has said on a platform.Open to the congregation and the world now via the net and tv radio and he has said it boldly and knowingly facing criticism.He hasn t said it behing a mask or under a different name cowering in secret.The internet has made a platform for COWARDS.The most vocal of his critics refusing to reveal their full names despite many requests to be open.COWARDS.
For this reason yous aren t even fit to tie his shoe laces.I ve came across many saddos but for the above to sit hiding on a friday night waiting to criticise a church or a pastor ,yous top the bill LOL.
For the believers who use this blog to publicly attack a man of God behind their anonymous names they d do well to consider 1sam26v9.Dress your speech up with scripture and fool your friends but you don t fool God who will "reward that which is done in secret openly".
Well done.Anyone looking to speak to me again id be easy enough found.I doubt that though as id be surprised if many on here do face to face
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To weejohn1 and the other clampet who r making the jokes
1 these are servants 0f the lord u are making jokes about
2 do u realise there is someone knocking on both your doors and i mean the doors of your hearts and that person is the lord jesus
3 the lord loves u so much that he went for a cross for u and even if you were the only 2 on earth he still would have went because he thought you were worth it yea you might think you are having a great time and i thought that too until the lord reached down and lifted me from a life of drink and drugs and if he can deliver me he can deliver anyone it doesnt matter what you have done he bore them all at calvary just something to think about before you make any more jokes about gods servants god bless
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Oh dear, post 284.........
Sharing a few jokes, having a laugh. We can't have that, now can we, quicktruthteller? Did you learn directly through divine revelation that jesus wants people to be somber, utterly serious, and joyless 100% of the time? Just imagine if people occasionally had a smile on their face, oh the blasphemous horror of that thought alone!
It reminds me of a definition of Puritanism I once read:
Puritanism - the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy
Oh, if only we were living in the good old days of Cromwells protectorate, right quicktruthteller?
Duh.
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Thanks Peter Klaver. In respect of post 284, thanks for sharing the gospel with me. I am actually a christian. (cue a list of ww posts) To presuppose that I am not a christian because the mere fact that I had a pint yesterday is preposterous! But sure the ww christian sub-culture of not drinking is cosy and comfortable, and sure its always the best excuse for "seperation from the world".
Crazy stuff...I hav no doubt that Jesus would have loved a glass of wine...did he not turn water into wine? Oh no, it was apple juice!
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or as the free p`s say "a refreshing fruit drink" lol
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Nop...we mustn't joke. Christians don't do that kind of thing. The Bible says we shouldn't. Chapter and verse...errr....something chapter something verse something. It's definitely in there somewhere...got to be
Come on...give me a break.
Maybe if people lightened up a bit, the whole WW thing could be sorted. Instead, this blog has many bitter comments from many bitter who speak the language of spirituality to conceal their shallow carnality.
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Ah, the mood lightens up a bit. In that case why not post the following:
One day in the Garden of Eden, Eve calls out to God.
"Lord, I have a problem!"
"Whats the problem, Eve?"
"Lord, I know you created me and provided this beautiful garden and all of these wonderful animals and that hilarious comedic snake, but Im just not happy."
"Why is that, Eve?" came the reply from above.
"Lord, I am lonely, and Im sick to death of apples."
"Well, Eve, in that case, I have a solution. I shall create a man for you."
"Whats a man, Lord?"
"This man will be a flawed creature, with many bad traits. Hell lie, cheat, and be vain; all in all, hell give you a hard time. But hell be bigger, faster, and will like to hunt and kill things. He will look silly when hes aroused, but since youve been complaining, Ill create him in such a way that he will satisfy your physical needs. He will be witless and will revel in childish things like fighting and kicking a ball about. He wont be too smart, so hell also need your advice to think properly."
"Sounds great." says Eve, with an ironically raised eyebrow.
Whats the catch, Lord?"
"Well ... you can have him on one condition."
"Whats that, Lord?"
"As I said, hell be proud, arrogant, and self-admiring ... So youll have to let him believe that I made him first. Just remember, its our little secret...
"You know, woman to woman."
Now a multiple-choice question to the WWers posting in this thread. After reading the joke above do you
A) smile a little
B) shrug your shoulders indifferently as you just didn't think it very funny and really don't care
C) remind me with a mixture of worry and outrage that posting jokes like that (which are a direct insult to the LORD who created me, blasphemous pigdog that I am) will likely earn me a front row seat in the lake of fire.
And if you can mix any humour with your zealous anger, remind me to give regards to other unsaved trash who didn't accept jesus as saviour and therefore deserve to burn there, like Mahatma Gandhi.
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peterklaver i have no problen with people making jokes and smiling after all it bwas the lord that gave us a smile but when people come on here claiming to be born again christians and making jokes about gods servants just is not on and one of the men people are joking about is a very good friend of mine some people on here need to have a good look at their own walk with the lord and stop lauging when other fail because we all fail at times also to weejohn1 you claim to be a christian and only you can answer that bit if your pastor or minister is saying its ok to have a pint now and then maybe you should question his walk with the lord as well as your own because in my bible it tells me that you cant be partakers of the lord table and partakers of the devils table and also you cant drink of the cup of the lord and the cup of the devil you will read it in 1 corinthians ch 10 and the water the lords changed into wine was the juice of the grape drinking is a sin and the lord hates sin so why would he encourage it so the next time you feel like a pint just think about who is getting the glory instead of going to the pub why not go home and spend that time with the lord god bless you
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I don't wish this to turn into some debate over should christians drink. I do not and if I was a leader of a church would tell people that and would encourage them to stay clear in case they fall into a snare. However would I criticise a brother for drinking a glass of wine and say you have sinned? No.
The greek word in John 2:9 is oinos and some say it means non-alcoholic grape juice, but it also means fermented wine. I'm no greek expert but I think the context of a wedding means Jesus turned it into fermented wine and of the very highest quailty. I would expect nothing else of the Lord. I also do not recall the Word of the Lord saying to drink a glass of wine is a sin. Yes to be drunk is a sin, the Bible is very clear on that but to have one drink is not. Yes we can say going to the places of the world can lead believers into possible snares and cause the unsaved to question our witness and faith, but do not rewrite the Word of the Lord. It does not say to drink is a sin.
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Peter Klaver
You are so right!these threads are so entertaining!
Regards
DD
ps any popcorn left(I like Tabasco and melted butter on mine)
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Ps Peter K
The insults flying amongst the 'brothers in Christ' are positively mild to a lot of stuff that we got pulled on!
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howmanymiles you said if you were a leader of a church you would tell people to stay away from alcohol incase they fell into the snare why if you think its ok to drink now and again your tripping yourself up here also you try and tell an alcoholic who has just given their heart to the lord its still ok to drink just as long as they dont get drunk is only going to be confussing for them because one drink leads to two and so on but if you think its ok thats up to you but my bible tells me you cant
also truthanator my bible is the old king james vrsion which i read every day and it says in proverbs ch 20 and verse 1 wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging and whosoever is deceived by it is not wise so you might think its ok to drink but the only person you are deceiving is yourself and i would love to know how peoplke were speaking to terry fittis ar the fountain last sunday when he is not in whitewell any more he is up in balysillan elim and no matter how you run whitewell down you have to remember souls are being saved there week in and week out and souls will be saved in the peoples church newtownabey how many people have been saved in your churches because going to church doesnt make anyone a christian because salvation is not in a church its in a person and his name is jesus
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To quicktruthteller
Don't want to start a row but nowhere in the bible does it tell us not to drink. I hate drink, I hate the smell, the taste is disgusting and I have seen the damage it does on people and families. It is a snare and dangerous. But the bible does not say if you drink a glass you have committed a sin. Be careful not to add your own verses to God's Word. Also you presume I would tell a saved alcoholic it's ok to drink but not to get drunk. Okay so by your rational I should tell a saved person who struggles with drink that he's sinning every time his illness causes him to drink. That's a stupid plan. That man would sink into depression every time he failed and only the Lord knows what could happen.
One time at a Whitewell I heard Robert Gass speak about a man who was struggling to give up smoking. He asked Robert Gass would he go to hell because of the smoking that he was trying to give up. The reply was no but smoking would kill him and put him to glory quicker. Robert Gass still sought to help the man stop smoking but never condemned him for it. You have to catch a fish before you gut it.
I say again I don't like drink, never have and never will. If I was a pastor I would tell people that but I would not be quick to tell them drinking a glass is a sin as I cannot find a verse in the bible telling me it is. Drunkness is wrong and sinful but where is the verse telling God's people to be teetotal?
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truthanator in regards to you question about the romanian children the if you went to whitewell you would know that the government wanted to take over the orphanage and pastor mcconnell and pastor mcgreedy wouldnt allow it why because alot of the people in government in romania were part of a pedophile ring and the two pastors made sure every child was adopted in to good families they werent just left to defend for them selves and as for pastor mcconnell wrecking the orphange before he would let scum take over it well it was whitewells money that payed for that orphange and i know the leadership of whitewell has to be accountable but they are only accountable to the lord and to their members not people who dont know pastor mcconnell or any of the assistant pastors or have never set foot in the church i have known most of the pastors all my life and found them to be great men of god who love him and serve him with everything they have yes they fail but so does the rest of us but we pick ourselves up and go on with the lord after all we are only sinners saved through his wonderful grace i no longer attend whitewell but that doesnt mean i dont love pastor mcconnell or any of the pastors or the people there i do because they are still my brothers and sisters in the lord we might not be in the same house but we have the same father and its sad when christians attack each other because we are all from the same family and if you think i was having a go at wee john 1 for having a drink i wasnt i was only trying to encourage him to spend that time with the lord instead of going to the pub think about this your mates can laugh you into hell but they will never laugh you out of it its called taking your stand for the lord yea my unsaved friends have asked me to take a drink and to go into bars with them but the lord took the desire for drinking and drugs away from me and now they respect me for taking my stand and know not to ask me anymore and believe me i was a big drinker and a big cocaine user so i know what its like to be in the gutter but praise the lord i also know what its like to be lifted out of the gutter god bless
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Sorry to hear about all the turmoil at Metropolitan Tabernacle. It is a great shame and does nothing to forward the cause of the Christian faith. I am not quite sure why Paster McKim is surprised that he has been shafted as I went to Metropolitan Tabernacle along with my ex-husband who is still an Elder in the church. I also was promised a position,as was my husband and we were both shafted and told if we didnt like it we could find another church. So cheer up George, what goes around comes around and no one ever really believed McConnell would retire anyhow.
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howmanymiles im not going to argue with you i dont need to i know my heart is right with the lord and i know the night i gave my heart to him he took every desire i ever had for drink away i know some people still struggle with it even after they are saved but i do know if they put their trust in the lord he can deliver them i have seen it being done my neighbour was an alcoholic every day i saw that man drunk not knowing what day it is i started praying for that man and asked the lord to save him and to deliver him from alcohol and now that man serves and loves the lord with everything he has and yes the night the lord saved him he also delivered him from the horrors of drink i just think before any child of god takes a drink they should think to themselves who am i giving the glory to here i wanna encourage people to go on with the lord
but you cant go on with the lord if you have one foot in the world and the other going towards the cross and the way i see it is drinking is something i did before i got saved and if you read 1 corrinthians ch 10 it tells us about drinking from the cup of the lord and drinking from the cup of the devil
also to hearsayornot how would you know members of the choir were at practise on a friday clubbing on a saturday and singing on a sunday unles you were with them you know not eveyone who attends church is saved and for everyone who is asking about what happened in romania why not go down to whitewell and ask pastor john mcgreedy after all he was the pastor there oh no sorry you cant none of you have the courage to i know what i was told at the meeting but some of you seem to know differnt so why not tell everyone what really happened since you claim to know so much about what goes on in whitewell stop running the church down i got saved in that church 25 years ago and i know the lord is doing a mighty work there and i know he will do the same at the pcn its easy to run someone down but is it what the lord wants from his children i realy dont think so in fact i know he doesnt want his children putting each other down when i first got sasved a man from whi has gone on to be with the lord told me thst christians would hurt me more than the unsaved and you know he was right christiasns do hurt each other more than the unsaved and if anyone is wondering who the man was it was pastor georges father who the lord not only saved but delivered him from alcohol so come on stop attack one another and start praying for the holy spirit to move in our land because we need him to move and if i have offended anyone on here please accept my appologies it was not my intention i just want to encourage every child of god on here to go on with him and to those who are not saved the lord jesus loves you so much and wants to come in to your life and be your best friend and it doesnt matter where your from what you have done the blood of jesus can cleanse any sin or even what religion you were brought up salvation is there for everyone who ask for it i was a roman catholic before i give my heart to the lord and i can honestly say its the best decision anyone could ever make so brothers and sisters in the lord keep your eyes on the lord god bless
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Does George Mckim put out a long appeal?
I was thinking of visiting tonight,but if it`s a 15 min plus appeal i`ll not bother...anyone know?
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Hello quicktruthteller, in post 290 you wrote
"peterklaver i have no problen with people making jokes and smiling after all it bwas the lord that gave us a smile"
That seems like poor reasoning to me. I'm not a believer, but for the sake of the discussion let's say there is a god. Then, in a very similar manner, you could say 'I have no problem with people using their feet to trample each other after all it was the lord that gave us feet.'
This god talk doesn't make for the best moral compass it seems. You seem to be suggesting just because you have the ability (and you think that that ability is god given), it is ok to use it.
Wouldn't it make for much better morality if you left god out of it and considered the consequences of what you would or would not do, to determine whether you should?
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Does George Mckim put out a long appeal?
I was thinking of visiting tonight,but if it`s a 15 min plus appeal i`ll not bother...anyone know?
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redeemed356 you should come to the peoples church tonight you will get a blessing and no george doesnt prolong the appeal the services at the peoples church are amazing the worship is great and most of all the lord is glorified and souls are being saved and his kingdom is being extended but remember its in the hilton now in templepatrick and if you are coming come early to get a good seat it was packed to the doors this morning and the message tonight is leaving the old life and walking into the new so if you do decide to come you will be very welcome and that goes to everyone on here i know some of you like you own church so dont think im asking anyone to leave their own church its just a simple invitation to the peoples church the service starts at 6.45 for anyone who would like to come god bless everyone
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thankyou quicktruthteller
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hi marblerosebud sorry love your ex husband could not be an elder because there is only two guys down there that our elders tommy c and mr british Israel purse so big doe hows jackie
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howmanymiles is so confused about the different aspects concerning alchohol. do not drink one minute then there is no scripture telling people not to drink!!! So that means we can drink, if we take the alternate scriptural reasoning. Or maybe it means we should stay clear of drink and just ignore a piece of scripture which doesn't exist in the first place.
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Sorry but I'm not confused I said if I was a leader I would make it clear that I do not drink and believe it is a snare to Christians. But rather than attack me please quote me the chapter and verse where the bible tells believers we are not to drink as it is a sin.
Pastors and leaders are told to rightly divide the word of truth. Telling people that having a drink is sinful then failing to come up with the scripture to back it up is a dangerous practice and attempting in my opinion to rewrite the scriptures.
If you cannot support your belief that drinking is a sin then maybe you should not argue it. I await your reply
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hearsayornot how can pastor mcconnell and pastor george not bow their heads and pray after whats happened just because something goes wrong it doesnt mean we stop praying if anything we get on our knees and seek the lord as to the pcn being amazing come along and c for yourself what the lord is doing dont just take my word for it and i think this is the time to pray because we are living in the last days and there are people out there who need to be saved so stop judging people about praying and start praying yourself becasuse every blood washed child of god should have a prsyer life its wehat brings us closer to god
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Glad to hear from you 800lighthorsemen. Dont know which school you went to but mabe they didnt do math? There are definately more than two Elders, count again or maybe ask Paster McConnell, and I'm sure you'll find I'm right, but hey lets not fall out over it, I made a fair comment on the way people are treated after many years of service both to the Lord and the church. I was always taught 'come for years and prove yourself'before receiving any position which I thought I had done. God bless and hope things improve at ww.
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to hearsayornot, you are bang on in everthing you say, just wanted to tell you that, God bless you
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hearsayornot just because pastor mcconnell and pastor mckim have went their seperate ways in the ministry doesnt mean they have stepped out of the will of god did paul and barnabas not go their seperate ways and the lord still blessed both men and if there is going to be a reconciliation between the two pastors the lord will do it in his time not yours and it was the lord that brought george and his family home not pastor mcconnell and fo me to answer your questions i am not answerable to anyone but the lord and when it comes to being defensive yea i am when it comes to anything about the lord especially when people are putting down a church that the lord is blessing when that person has never been in that church or probally never spoken to george mckim who is a lovely man not only as a pastor but also as a friend i wouldnt try to find faults in any church who was preaching the gospel and winning souls for christ but do come next sunday its in the hilton and if you come expecting a blessing you will recieve one god bless and keep going on with the lord
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The Peoples Church Newtownabbey, have now out grown Corr's and have moved to the Hilton in Templepatrick.
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quicktruthteller
i would like to comment on your point about Paul and Barnabas, they may have had a disagreement but if you read Acts, Paul continually writes about unity, maybe realising his error and in the end calling for john mark as he was needed for the ministry, will this happen in WW, will Pastor McKim be called for?
Also, unlike us, Paul and Barnanbas did not have the luxury of owning a New Testament Bible. The Bible is full of examples we are to avoid, like Ananias and Sapphira etc lieing to the Holy Spirit, could Paul and Barnabas also be an example to avoid? As hearsayornot has said, reconciliation is biblical as the scripture he/she provided states.
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hearsayornot raising your hand does not make anyone a christian its how someone lives their lifws after they walk out of church you cant decide to be a child of god and walk out and still do the same things maybe your friends just made a decision but didnt let the lord in and im not running them down i know it happens i have saw it happen before friends of mine have raised their hands even prayed the sinners prayer and still walked out the same way why they never fully commiteed to the lord we need to surrender our whole lifes to the lord but keep praying for your friends and keep trusting the lord for them and witness to them tell them what the lord has done in your life because we both know the lord can save anyone but that person has to want to be saved god bless
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Marblerosebud dont worry what school i attended i think you might be getting your elders and deacons mixed up . there is only two left after that beauiful man john heron died a few years ago .so sorry to hear the bishop didnt dance for you .but really when all of us dont get the success we tent to blame it on who ever in church the work place we all look for scapegoats sorry for you its the bishop .there is no perfection in any church or man you just have to read the crap on this site
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can anyone help?
i was reading through these blogs and looking up scriptures that had been quoted but when i went online today to look them up again the blogs have been removed? think it was hearsayornot or something like that. i thought blogs were only removed if they were offensive but i was interested in checking the scripture which was on it.
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Howmanymiles
Thankyou for educating me on the subject of drink. I have thought about your comments from yesterday, and I realise you are completely correct, and I am totally wrong. As you quite rightly point out, drinking is not a sin, and "there is not a scripture anywhere to say that it is." I agree with you that "I should not argue that drinking is a sin, if I cannot support it or back it up." Thankyou again howmanymiles, I can now argue a good case for drinking believers, thanks to yourself.
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Martin Luther, Jonathan Edwards,C. H. Spurgeon, Martyn Lloyd Jones, C. S. Lewis all drunk alcohol at some time in their Christian life along with a host of other Christians, the fundamentalist attitude towards alcohol is a pharisaical one, a legalistic attitude without any basis in Holy Writ.
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someone on here doesnt seem to like scripture being quoted as a lot of messages deleted contained scripture.
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Instead of everyone jumping on the bandwagon and giving their opinion about what should be done and how it should be done. Why don't we all do what we are supposed to "Take all our concerns and lay them at the feet of Jesus" If you really want the answers to all your questions then it is there and only there that you will find the answers. So for goodness sake wise up, grow up and stop asking if you can have your tithe back, the Lord didn't ask if HE could have the blood back that he shed for us.
Maybe you all need to go and do some serious reading of the Precious Word of Truth.
Furthermore i for one personally support Pastor McConnell 100% and can see for myself where all the money goes... on average it takes approx £13,000 a week to keep the church up and running and when you mulitply that by 52weeks in a year it works out at just over 1/2 million annually, this is where the money goes. Alongside the running of the church we have different mission fields which we support our two biggest being in Kenya and Ethopia where we have schools, hospitals, childrens homes and Bible schools. We feed thousands of children each week in these places and to do so they need funding and money, this comes from the whitewell people who tithe.
Another facility we have is the befrienders ministry which ministers to the disabled they needed buses to cater for the needs of each individual and these buses need maintained.
Lastly has anyone seen the new McConnell youth complex that was recently opened, no expense was spared as we believe the youth are the next generation of the church.
It really does sicken me to hear and read such disrespect and from some people who calim to be "Whitewellers" they should be ashamed. Its ridiclous behaviour and one that has sickened me to the back teeth, just lead your own lives and stop trying to control a church, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about or the Lord would have appointed you as a Pastor or church leader but he hasnt so in my opinion you don't qualify to look at church finances etc. Go and wise yourselves up!
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captain bored Corinthians 16
1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
3And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
4And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.
1 Corinthians 16 (Amplified Bible)
1 Corinthians 16
1NOW CONCERNING the money contributed for [the relief of] the saints (God's people): you are to do the same as I directed the churches of Galatia to do.
2On the first [day] of each week, let each one of you [personally] put aside something and save it up as he has prospered [in proportion to what he is given], so that no collections will need to be taken after I come.
3And when I arrive, I will send on those whom you approve and authorize with credentials to carry your gift [of charity] to Jerusalem.
4If it seems worthwhile that I should go too, they will accompany me.
now do you read that bored captain? 3And when I arrive, I will send on those whom you approve and authorize with credentials to carry your gift [of charity] to Jerusalem. after the collection was made my the aposyle approved and authpurised person then counted and collected so that there was no secrecy!! now if it was good enough for the apostle paul surely its good enough for pastor mcconnell. you see paul had more wisdom because he knew what people would think if he had a collection and he was the only one who knew what the the amount was so in his wisdom he made sure that men who were qualified handled it as well so that they could confirm to the people the amount and were it was going!!! its called transperencey!!! now you made a comment that it takes 13,000 to run the church each week!! now thats a staggering amount in anybodies book and with the way you had the figure from your head you seem to know this so perhaps captain you can explain were it takes 13,000 to run the church per week?? as for the missionaries you support i was alawys under the impression that this was an additinal offering over above the tithe which is for the home church and this was supported by these avenues. you see captain instead of making assumptions like you people actually think things out for themselves and ask well is the tithe going to the church and how much goes to missionaries? now if this was transparent you would not be saying of the top of your head it takes 13,000 to run the church?? how does it?? find the figure out properly. as for the youth centre is this the same centre were there already was a youth centre??? so you spend over 1 million and in your terms no expense spared to build were there already was a building??? maybe the older generation who have tithed and been at the church for decades would they not have been entitled to say, a home?? a home to put them in instead of going into the lonely places were a lot of them have had to go? no your right just build another youth centre which was less than 12 years old and nobody ask why we are doing this when we already have a youtyh centre. your right captain.
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now if you needed a new youth centre which was built after the church are we now to presume that there now needs to be built and furnished with bo expense spared the the santuary itself? after all it was built in 1994 and the youth center was built in 1996. now as for my earler blogg captain read carefully the chapter in corithinaians it was to help the poor of the christian congregations. are we now to presume that all the poor in ww are now going to be looked after and look forward to a payout
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Instead of everyone jumping on the bandwagon and giving their opinion about what should be done and how it should be done. Why don't we all do what we are supposed to "Take all our concerns and lay them at the feet of Jesus" If you really want the answers to all your questions then it is there and only there that you will find the answers. the above quotation from captain well now hes saying thats were we were going wrong just pray and The Lord will reveal were it is all going!!!! well what do you know we are all stupid why didnt we think of that!!! well i have a hunch that this is one revelation that wont be revealed!!! not thsi side of eternity anyhow!!! 13,000 a week to run the church!!1 the more i think of that statement the unbelievable it sounds!!! if it costs that amount something somewere is wrong
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post 333 secondmccullough
check out the acounts for the waterfront hall it is the same size as ww,
1/rates
3electric2/water rates
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post 333 secondmccullough
also w,well is in use seven days a week,12 months a year
unlike the waterfront hall
secondmccullough /second rate mind !!!!!!!!!!!!
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look, lets face it we all know now that WW is rotten to the core, i left years ago when i realised it for myself and all this has proved it to me and many others no matter what the ramblings from the deluded, brainwashed people who have stayed and buried their heads in sand say!!!
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Its ashame that pastors McConnell and McKim did not heed the words of Alexander Whyte, writing about the Pharisses when he said, It is our universal and incurable self-love and selfrighteousness that is the real root of all our sectarianisms and schisms and controversies, whether those controversies are carried on by the tounge or by the pen or by the sword. It is our pride and our self-idolatry; it is our contempt and scorn of all other men; it is not our love of truth, so much as our love of ourselves, that is the real cause of of all our contentions and controversies
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Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7 (15-20).
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well feet of clay i will not indulge in petty name calling and the like. you are right on one thing though i have a second rate mind. just thought i would add to your comment about the rates at the waterfront though. isnt it wonderfull that you can go on and llook at what they pay out!!! would it not be nice to do the same with ww? then everyone would know exactly what comes in and what goes out. and by the way your statement that ww is used everyday and the waterfront by that deduction isnt arent you aware that you have to pay rates whher you open one day or 7? and it is the same for such? theres no banding on how many days you use its just rates. hopefully you reply in a much better tone than calling people 2nd rate,those who dont agree with with your opinion are still entitled to their opinion as to day we rember them that died at the somme to give us a democracy, and that entitled us to our opinions. this is the common theme emanating from ww'ers that nobody is entitled to this (opions of their own) and as i stated in an earlier blogg using scripture that with the collections the apostle paul had in the early church there was transperency!!! even the waterfront hall has it feet of clay!!! now maybe one day you could go on to such a thing you went on to and seen the waterfront costings. me thinks if that if happened at ww you would get a massive shock!! what does it cost to have 10 pastors per week??
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and do the people of ww get value for money from the other 9? maybe you can answer that feet of clay as my 2nd rate mind cant
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gosh secondmccullough you really like to get your point across good on you, can you recommend any good sound places of worship ?
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Peter Klaver/Harvey
regarding post 294 - couldn't agree more!
I wrote a message saying I wouldn't be around here whilst the crazies are running the asylum. (I note that the exceptions to the rule, like Sam, get a very hard time from pseudomyms). But I've grown up with this sort of nastiness and nonsense, and it bores me to tears.
Eg. Note a very old tactic (i) Position yourself as a victim (ii) Use your status as a victim to justify intimidation and being vindictive.
Yawn.
My post said some very nice things about the Atheists and Skeptics on the blog, and thanked you(yep, it included you PK. I even called you a gentleman.) Then someone complained about my comment, which contained NOTHING offensive.
Hmm, I wonder why?!!
I haven't read through much here - just checking to see if you got my message. Seems not.
Wonder if they'll let you read this one. If so let Brian, John etc. knwo how much I've appreciated the discussions.
GV
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I'll check back in a month or so.
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800 thank you for your kind comments but i think that place of worship are down to choice and what best suits you. the old adage probaly still hold true one mans meat is another mans poison. but there are many fine churches in this wee land of this we have no doubt (and i include ww in that) and were you go i feel (in my very small opinion) is down to your descion and good choice
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yes i did many years ago but but to find aplace and call it home is hard
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maybe the thing that is hard is actually to feel at home because if you can feel at home makes all the difference and to me if we find it hard to call somewere home is actually a slight on churches because you should be made to feel at home
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Hello Graham,
I did read that message before it got pulled. I think DD and John would also have read it. And indeed, there was nothing offensive in it.
"Note a very old tactic (i) Position yourself as a victim (ii) Use your status as a victim to justify intimidation and being vindictive."
Yup, we knew that one already from before the WW horde stampeded this place. Talking of the horde, they do seem to be mostly contained in this thread. It was a sudden deafening stampede but seems to have died out mostly already. The rest of the blog is mostly back to normal, with most posts coming from the regulars.
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post 347 secondmccullough
what a lazy boy / girl you are (I like somewhere thats feels like home).
(slight on churches, you sould be made to feel at home)
would you like a nice cup of tea secondmccullough, or put your FEET up.
have a nice doze!!!!!!!!!
THE BRIDEGROOM IS HERE "WHAT WORK HAVE YOU DONE "
HAVE you been working hard in the field, NO YOU HAVE BEEN SITTING SNIPING
BEHIND YOUR KEY BOARDs ,LIKE A LOT OF OTHERS
I DO NOT ATTEND W,WELL BUT I WISH THEM WELL,I KNOW IT IS NOT A PERFECT PLACE, BUT THEY ARE TRYING,
"SOMETHINGS THEY GET RIGHT" "SOMETHINGS THEY GET WORNG" "LIKE ALL OF US"
"WE ALL ARE MADE OF CLAY" "AND THIS IS MAN FALLING OUT WITH ANOTHER MAN"
post 330 tried to point out where they think the money go,es thats all,
secondmccullough you seem to have a desire like judas to know ,what the money was and is spend on, and we know what a sad end he had.
Would you like popcorn, pizza, crisps, or a nice cup of TEA!!!
No! will rattle away at your keyboard with your fellow do gooders!!
EMPTY WORDS AND THOUGH" WE ARE ALL LIKE A VAPOUR THAT APEARER FOR A LITTLE WHILE AND THEN WE A GONE,!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OR ARE WE!
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My first time tonight at the people`s church newtonabbey....great meeting! Looking forward to sunday!
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feet of clay well with an attitude like yours its no wonder that most people dont feel at home in church. as for labour everywere i look there is labour going on without any real production. maybe it would be better instead of labouring you actually sought The Lord and then maybe your labours would not be in vain. remeber when the disciples toiled all night and caught nothing? lot of labour there then The Lord tells them to cast again and look at the results. me thinks that your labour is like the former mentioned above as i see only decline in churches and less and less people comming to church. though with your nice attitude its not very hard to see why. rember The Lord said I am the good shepherd (kaionos in the greek for good) which means attractive lovely and you can see why people were attracted to Him. bit like ghandi who said that he admires Your Christ but not His people and with attitudes like yours feet maybe he was right. as for the judas slur thats the easy way out for a lot of people like yourself oh weres the money going because he said it in the gospels but believe it or not feet of clay you have more the charachter of judas as he was a zealot and by your rantings i think people can see that you could safely put you in that charachter. your a zealot feet of clay without to much common sense or even savy and i for one would not accept a kiss from you!!! though i suspect in your zealotry you have offered many.
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ffet of clay as for your comment on feeling at home are you suggesting that this should not be the case? This is My commandment that you love one another. now if you love one another in The Lord would that not make you feel at home? if you felt that love and it came genuinely from a church are you suggesting that you would not feel this. over and over in the apostles writtings such things were exhorted to do. practice hospitality was pauls command to the romans peters was the same practice hosppitality and paul commended gaius for playing host to himself and the church!!! hospitality means welcoming means making one feel at home. and by the way gaius had the church in his house!!! me thinks feet you are a laboureer with a lot of zeal but no heart. maybe you should go to the wizard of oz with the lion and get a heart!!! as for the rest of us we will go to the lion of judah and get the heart he wants us to have. (this is my commandment that you love one another)
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Hello everyone i used to to whitewell. Does anybody think they will get back together? Who is going to take over the WMT? A lot of people are hurt by this and they need some answers. Are they all going to join George Mckim? I would love to know what the atmosphere is like in the church now, could someone tell me?
I was always worried about the teaching of British Israelism by Charlie Purse in his bible class. Does he still teach that? Nice to see all the Whitewellers here talking there are lots of questions that need answers.
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Hi gang
Just back after being away for a few days.It's calmed down alot here! Second talking about "loving one another",does that include music directors? lol ps greek word for good is 'kalos' in Jn 10:11!
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Hi princess,
yeah I agree that B.I. and Oneness heresy are very worrying!
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well red see your back on !!1 cant agree with you that bi and oneness are worrying. mant good men in ww including charlie purse have spent years studying both these teachings and when i say study thats exactly what they have done. so to counteract there beliefs i suggest that you put in the same amout of study they have and maybe you can say with oliver cromwell i beeseech you by the mercies of Christ that you could be wrong
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Well second you may not agree with me, but the rest of biblical christianity does!!! And as far as Mr Purse spending many years studying heresy doesn't negate that it's still heresy.I was talking to a JW who's been studying watchtower theology since the seventies, does that make him anymore the right?
Why are you assuming that I havn't studied modalism? Oh and when you say that "these good men have studied", what do you mean by study? Cause any UPC stuff that I've heard or read is certainly not based upon sound principles of Biblical exegesis, but instead use a subtle cross-referencing system that takes scripture out of context ie eisegesis!
Plus their ridculous interpretation of Jn1:1,not to mention others,
speaks for itself! And lets not forget all the other baggage ie baptismal regeneration,speaking in tongues as a sign of salvation,legalistic views on the food laws,hat wearing!
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Second if your stuck on this suggest you read boyd's book on the oneness pentecostalism or whites book " the forgotten Trinity" as they, like many others have already 'countreacted' the oneness hersey!! Or read any good systematic theology eg Wayne Grudem who states that oneness theology is not to be considered true christianity!
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Actually second if you go onto youtube and watch the debate between Oneness guy Robert Sabin and James White, you tell me who you think has studied!
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Sorry forgot to mention concerning 'baggage', that oneness teachers, well atleast those who are consistant with their theology,actually state that the Atonement was only apparent! ie how can the wrath giver and the wrath bearer be the same one? ISAIAH 53:10-11
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I have to go now second but would have no trouble to meet you face to face(if possible) to discuss this issue!!!
"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I HAD WITH YOU before the world was." Jn 17:5
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well I and the Father are one does that end the oneness debate?
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Hello People, I have never posted on this blog as I have no interest in Whitewell split debate but I must say that Modalism is complete,ungodly nonsense, and I would be very worried if it was taught in my church! I thought WW was now Trinitarian?
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Rev, I've seen that debate you mentioned, there is also another one with the late Dr Walter Martin,author of 'kingdom of the cults',debating oneness guys on youtube. You can see them squirming when he gets into the Greek! You should check it out!
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Hello again
All this talk about theology.
Revdoc:
What is so wrong with the Oneness doctrine? It glorifies Christ as completely man and completely God. When you look at the Trinity doctrine, He comes 2nd. Jesus should never come 2nd to anything or anyone!
Also, if what you believe is true, then did God pray to God in the garden? Because to me God doesn't need anyone's help! Jesus in fact prayed in the human to the divine. The Trinity doctrine was formed at the Council of Nicea by Rome. It is NOT a biblical doctrine. The Bible says there is ONE God. I suggest you listen to Gordon Magee's debate vs Toddy and see who done their studying there!
Also, Jesus told his disciples that the Comforter would come to be with them, and then he said I will not leave thee comfortless. If you read the original it says I will not leave you orphaned, thus saying that He would not leave them without a Father!
You can debate it all day until you are blue in the face. You can believe what you believe and God bless you.
I believe that Jesus is God and that IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY.
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all4jesus
maybe you should change ur blog name to all4thesecodmodeofexpression!
Ah the prayer in the garden, the son of God prayed to the Father! EASY!
Theology and doctrine are very important cf
1Tim1:10,4:1,6,13,16,5:17,6:1,3,2Tim3:10,16,4:3,Tit1:9,2:1,7,10,Heb13:9, 2Jn whole chp!
As for Jesus "praying in the human to the divine" please explain Jn17:5? Or HEB1:8-9?
"Gordon Magee" the mqn who believed in ultimate reconciliation! ie the Decil and his Demons would be reconciled to God? mmmmmmm Read Rev 20 for that one! Ok then what did he teach concerning Jn1:1-2?
"The Trinity is not a biblical doctrine" It's actually all through scripture!
"It glorifies Christ as completely man and completely God. When you look at the Trinity doctrine, He comes 2nd. Jesus should never come 2nd to anything or anyone!" No it actually dishonours Christ by making Him GOD & MAN instead of the GODMAN! Secondly Christ is not second as you put it but willingly took upon Him the role of servant Philp2:5-11,Jn10:29 etc etc
"Also, Jesus told his disciples that the Comforter would come to be with them, and then he said I will not leave thee comfortless. If you read the original it says I will not leave you orphaned, thus saying that He would not leave them without a Father!"
He doesn't say HE would send them a father! What He is saying is that just as He (Christ) taught,led,loved,guided,etc etc then He Would pray TO THE FATHER to send ANOTHER HELPER (NKJV) to do the same.
ps the word 'another in greek is 'ALLOS'and "expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort" vines exp dict p52
"I believe that Jesus is God and that IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY." Godhead is a misleading translation. The greek word is 'THEOTES' and just means Deity ie Jesus was full deity,God.cf NASB,NIV,NRSV,ESV.It doesn't say he was the father!
The early church councils simply formulated doctrine based upon the biblical record so as to draw the line in the sand between truth and heresy! And it was not the Roman catholic church as we understand it today! That's another little myth presented by oneness heretics!
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Second,
"one" what?
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all4jesus
please understand I'm not a theological junkie who enjoys "debating until i'm blue in the face" But fundamentals like the Trinity must be defended at every turn! This is one of those issues that I cannot agree to disagree on and I'm sure the oneness diehards would agree, excuse the pun,with that. I actually heard Mr Purse years ago refer to the "Trinitarian cults" Now that aint good friend if as James White puts it in his book, "that the Trinity is the constitutional idea behind christianity". Somebody is wrong, very wrong indeed!
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Howdy Hank,
yea i've seen that debate aswell,it was very good. The oneness guys just evaded the real issues. actually one of them was Robert Sabin again who,along with his collegue,wouldn't even acknowledge that Walter Martin was saved, when Walter pressed them on it!
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The real question when it comes to this issue is, does the bible teach the preexistence of Christ with the Father? Jn1;1-2,Jn17,Philp2 the answer is YES!
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I used to attend Whitewell. I recall Pastor McC talking regularly and at length about building an old people's home. Indeed, he joked that he would be a resident. He also talked about building a centre for people with Aids.
Does anyone know what happened to these projects?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I just noticed on William's update dated 28th June - he says with reference to the Peoples church moving to the Hilton Hotel 'Some reports suggest that the church has NOT outgrown its original venue at Corrs Corner Hotel'
Is the word 'NOT' actually meant to be 'NOW'? Or is he saying that the move is purely logistical and that there was still adequate space at Corr's corner and no significant numerical growth? Some clarification would be helpful please William.
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Thank you darling (I just loved saying that!)
Was there any explanation given for the volte face on the old people's home and clinic? My recollection is that there was (surprise) money collected.
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The reality is the whitewell bubble has burst. Was there a plot by George because he is more interested in power? Or did he get kicked out? Or did something else happen? How can anybody trust them? Why will they not tell people what happened?
Surely the people who are giving them money deserve to know the answers. You can live in your own fantasy world if you like but there has to be some transparency.
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I believe there between 5 to 7 hundred people tonight at the Hilton,
and that Pastor McKim ia a lovely humble man of God. I hope they get premises soon closer to Belfast even over towards the east of the city, we could really do with that here.Ulster needs what Pastor George McKim has got ...JESUS
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and yes sadly I believe the Whitewell bubble has burst. And do you know what the real cause of it all was? .........lack of love
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happy so happy for you that this bubble has pop, this lack of love is it the same love you display ? if people like you would take your head out of your back side dont look down and see the dirt look up and the light baby n ireland may be just may be do a little bit better in reaching people
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ti 800lighthorsemen, you are extremely rude! I love ww very much and it breaks my heart that all this is happening. Both Pastors are lovely but I truly believe that if they were to love like The Lord Jesus tells us to then we wouldnt be where we are now. It isnt too late and I hope and pray that ww will be restored and be bigger and stronger than ever and back on track with Plan A.
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not so happy it must not break your heart that much to say the bubble has burst and that their is a lack of love.after all you love ww and the bishop so much go figure ? please dont call me rude you no nothing about me or what i do
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800lighthorsemen.One only has to read your blogs to come to the conclusion of your rudeness and bad language,If as you say you have in ww for 23years I would have expected a lot more of you. Where is your love ? And yes I do love Pastor McConnell and I love Pastor McKim and want to see them reconciled and everyone back in their places at ww. Would that include you are you in your place? where do you stand with The Lord?
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Not one of us will be answerable for one ther person .We all will have to give an account of ourselves. If you have love you have everything for God is love.Let us all love one another outrageously and defeat the enemy of our souls. Love is the only weapon the enemy cannot counterfiet. So I love you 800lighthorsemen and pray Gods richest blessing for you.
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Before you post your comment, why not spend a moment in prayer and ask God that if you must make a comment, you make it with love and respect for others. Some of the comments posted are nasty and resentful. Of course you may have been hurt over this situation, who hasnt. I have just read a text message from a friend who goes to whitewell. Please take a moment and read it:
'Would yo pray for me, i', slipping away from my Lord, doing all the wrong things due to everything happening around me. Missing my Lord's presence so much. I must get bck to him before I crack up'
Now tell me, what do you feel after reading this? No one knows the answer to the whitewell problem nor the answer, but try praying, it wont't make matters any worse and could make things so much better. Pray that God will sort out this situation in whatever way He thinks best. Remember our will is not always God's will. Pray for the families who have been members of whitewell for many years and are now split because of this situation with one member of the family going to George and the other to Jim. Get a life, stop gripping and ask God for wisdom.
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I am glad this has got on the web. People can see for themselves what life is really like in a fundamentalist church. Self righteous believers trying to impart guilt on each other for people speaking their opinion. Pastors who thrive on power, they tell people god is talking to them and angles are visiting them. The naive believe them as i once did. Even after the split the believers still believe they are part of a work of god.
In Georges last sermon on the whitewell website it is ironic that he mentions from the bible "not many wise, not many noble are called and that God has called the foolish"
The whole thing is exploiting peoples fears George in his last sermon said evil will beset you if you do not follow God. Sin will destroy you.
My memories of Whitewell are there is some nice friendly people there. They are plagued with guilt and they will not question whatever the pastor says. That's why they are called sheep submissive Jesus junkies, who have been given a fix that does not work and brings more misery in the long run.
I am very pleased to be free from this fundamentalist oppressive outlook on life. The collapse of fundamentalism is always a good thing whether religious or political.
That feels good to get that out in the open.
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whats the latest on the ww saga?
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to princessnewsjunkie, what is fundamental? i was at ww for close on 23 years. i never questioned where my money went to. so yes,in a sense i was like a sheep just doing but never questioning? but i thank god he took (me,and my family out of ww 2 years ago).i have never tried to make anyone feel guilty or tried to impart guilt to anyone by voicing my opinions your blog 354 reads very nice and sincere but after reading the next 2 (376) (385) it reads to me like bitterness has crept in. where are you going to now?
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Bad language are you for real not happy are you a triper you cut me down and then cover me in love your christianity confuses me, im sorry you thank i dont respect you ,elevate your attitude im really not the enemy take a brave new look at your thinkig o and that 23 years was 20 years ago
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hello sweeper1110 Here is a good link about fundamentalism
http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Fundamentalism
I am not bitter just talking about my life at ww and what i think about the spilt. I do not go to church anymore.
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let me tell you prince theirs lots like you and not just in n ireland
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To princessnewsjunkie,
concerning post 385.
1. Because there's a difference of opinion between two pastors vision, certainly does not mean that FUNDAMENTALISM is over, far from it, as history shows that.
2. There's no such thing as ***** junkies, it is a shame to use such a term.
3. When someone is no longer a FUNDAMENTALIST, its easy to know, they change from a capital G too a small g when referring to Elohim.
4. I know for a fact that many people over the years don't put the pastors of Whitewell up on a high platform and have disagreed with them on many occasions but still are very happy to be in the Whitewell fellowship.
5. FUNDAMENTALISM will always be here right up to the day of our LORD'S return.
6. I hope Whitewell + the Peoples Church will get even bigger as the time moves on.
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well said 800 light!!!
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I have prayed before I have written this, and now I am asking all of you who love The Lord to join with me in praying Gods will for the whole situation.I am sorry if I have come across unloving or judgemental in any of my blogs. I truly desire for unity among Gods people and for those of you who are walking far off The Lord Jesus still loves you and always will . Praise His lovely name He really is "the same yesterday, today and forever" May The Lord bless everyone of you and may we bound together in His wonderful love.
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thanks sec happy your happy again good for you love its hard for me to keep up theirs a few hours diff for me
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To 800lighthorsemen, Are you not in Northern Ireland ? If not is it permanent or are you on holidays? Hope you dont mind me asking ? Alhtough "happy " is in my name it is more in hope than present reality. I actually think I am the most depressed I have ever been in my life, its kind of a relief to admit it to someone even in a blog coz I wouldnt say to my family, who think I have it all together and am strong , which I definetly am not right now . Goodnight and God bless
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hi princessnewsjunkie, can i ask why you stopped going to church
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I don't go to church because i realised it is a load of rubbish. The same way some people stop being sectarian. There was nearly a riot on the church bus one night after church the argument was about dancing someone in the choir was swaying a wee bit too much. The penny then dropped this whole church thing is ridiculous. Everyone has their doubts but few are honest about it. Right now i know a lot of whitewellers are disillusioned and rightly so. The ones who say dont talk about it are just deceiving themselves. Try asking the pastors, they will not give you any answers about your doubts or about the spilt because they do not have any.
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g,day happy i no that is not your name i would love to call you by name ,i am so sorry you feel like this right now .i would love to do something tangible for you and give you a hug but i am so far away, be happy today and no this, that someone you dont no or may be you do is praying for you please dont let hindrances hold you down look up and soar you are to good love your friend
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Hello 800lighthorsemen. thank you so very much, you have no idea how much I appreciate that right now.It felt like a lovely big hug ! I am sending one to you ,It makes all the difference in the world to know someone is thinking and praying for you, and I am praying for you too. Lots of love. your friend.
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Hey Happy, Just had to write when I read your post. I'm sorry your feeling so bad right now but please remember that restoration is always only a prayer away. God is good - all the time - and something that really helps me when things get a bit too much is that He (God)loves us unconditionally, not because of who or what we are, but, IN SPITE OF WHO OR WHAT WE ARE. Please don't think I'm just trying to roll out all the old cliches and really try and grasp that as it's definitely helped me in my 24 yrs of being a Christian. It doesn't matter how badly we feel we've failed Him and let Him down He's still there, still waiting on us and still loving us - always.
Really hope you feel better soon and I too will be thinking about you and praying for (I hope you don't mind)
Love and God bless Lorraine
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thanks mate
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Lorraine That was so very kind of you, thank you I truly appreciate you taking the time to write. I love The Lord with all my heart and I love ww its just breaking my heart at what has happened, and I would love nothing more than for us all to be back in our places on Lords day including Pastor George. For us all to forget about ourselves and
concentrate on Him Our Lord Jesus.
I would really appreciate your prayers, thank you so much lots of love
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you really helped me 800lighthorsemen. you are lovely person.
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no worries i grew up with the boys at ww my mum and dad still go after all these years
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Really! I probably know your folks, how long has it been since you were there? Do you still go to church? hope you dont mind me asking.
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i was in n ireland last may and call in
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I was reading the letter of James recently and I came across a verse which said where there is jealousy and selfish ambition THERE WILL BE DISORDER. Maybe this could be a big reason as to why this is happening at Whitewell at the moment.
Well what do you think guys?
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does anyone know who the couple are who turned their backs on pastor blake in whiteabbey hospital car park on tuesday morning 7/7/2009. just trying to see where the love of jesus is.
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oh, by the way, forgot to mention, that couple go to ww.
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I forgot to ask you sweeper why did you leave ww? It sounds like george and bertie blake Jims life long friend done a judas. No wonder the couple turned their backs on them.
Notashamed asking whitewellers what they think, good joke if you are trying to be funny. They are trained not ot think.
lean not on your own understanding, is the verse i remember been preached at .
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Hi Happy, no problem, I just hope you don't mind me talking to you directly. I also echo your sentiments and would love to see everyone restored, although I, unfortunately, can't see it happening as although I don't know Pastor McConnell really well I do know my Pastor (Pastor McKim) and I do not doubt that he could see no other way ahead as he loves the Bishop to bits and looks on him as his spiritual Father.
I will continue to pray for God's peace that passes all understanding to be with you Happy, and also for the whole Whitewell situation as I know that many more than you have been affected by it.
In His love LOrraine
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princessnewsjunkie (post410) surely you are not condoning the behaviour of the couple in the car park! I was a member of ww for over 30 years and the decision to leave was certainly not taken lightly but things there have not been good for a long time and the events surrounding Pastor George and Linda and the boys were as they say 'the straw that broke the camels back'. I continue to pray for ww as it would be a shame to see what has been achieved over the years forgotten and the work only to be remembered for the split that has taken place.
Unfortunately the incident in whiteabbey hospital car park is sadly a common one when people leave ww. Members off my family who have also left ww have received text messages from friends telling them not to contact again, blocked on different chat rooms etc. I find this extremely sad but all too common. Surely as brothers and sisters in Christ we should be able to rise above this and at least maintain friendships. If Christ Himself had been standing in that car park would the situation have been any different - 'in as much as ye did it unto them.......'.
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It's perhaps a statement of the obvious that this episode has crystallised many people's misgivings about the Whitewell leadership.
I left some time back because I had misgivings. I found Pastor McConnell to be consumed by his own self-importance but totally lacking any sense of irony or self awareness. For example, he repeatedly castigated graduates ("they know nothing") whilst styling hmself "Dr" on the basis of a bought degree.
The continuous and unseemly calls for yet more money week after week was another issue. Apparently members could come to the leadership and the accounts would be made available for examination. This, however, was couched in terms that made it plain that to do so meant one lacked trust. It's simply not good enough that members are asked to make sacrifices but can't be told how the money is being spent.
How much do McConnell and his family (son-in-law and daughter) take in salary and expenses?
Same for Pastors and staff?
Let's have no criticism of MPs from the pulpit before the situation closer to home is clear.
Why no published, professionally audited annual accounts?
It seems that the leadership has managed to cultivate a mindset in which diligence equates to disloyalty and, given that we are talking about "the Lord's money", to question McConnell is to question God himself.
PS - I see that the Whitewell music director styles himself "Rev" in the UCB AM/FM LICENCE APPLICATION 2006. At that point he had been a "Full-time minister for 21 years" apparently.
See http://www.bci.ie/documents/ucb_3.pdf
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aw thank you so much Lorraine its really nice of you to adress me directly. I couldnt agree with you more and Pastor George is one of the nicest most sincere people I have ever met. Thankyou fpr praying Gods peace for me coz thats exactly what I am pursuing. I too would consider Pastor George to be my Pastor, and I am continually praying for reconcilliation as I am constantly reminded of all the blessings when "the brethren dwell together in unity"
IN the Love of our lovely Lord Jesus
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"you shall know them by their fruit" need I say more?
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hi princessnewsjunkie, i left ww in 2007 because god moved me and my family on. i didnt make the decision lightly. it was only after much prayer and through what god should me in his word that i moved out in faith. i thank god that he did.pastors george and bertie did not, as you so eloquently put it do a judas. if you want to know why bertie left why not ask him. he will give you the truth. sadly,this is a mindset among some !christians! if they dont do what we say ostracise them. im still trying to see the love of jesus in all this.
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hi jesus-loves mini-me. post 412. i agree what you say--- in as much as you did it onto the least of these you did it onto me. lets hope god will bring closure to all this soon. somehow i dont think so. there is still a lot more to come out.
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Hi again Happy, I won't do this again as I feel I'm taking up this blog and taking away from the purpose behind it but I just wanted to say that I'm really glad you look on Pastor McKim as your Pastor, you couldn't have a better example as he tries his very best in everything he does and he really cares and shows the love of God through his own life. I honestly don't mean that as a slight on your previous Pastor I just know Pastor McKim and really appreciate him for the man of God he is. However, knowing this, also highlights your present predicament more and I really feel for you.
Anyway, the reason I'm replying (yet again) is that we were over in March to see them and are booked to come back for the take over (although we don't know if we are gonna come earlier now or not), my daughter,Nic, is really close to the boys and, in fact, Lewis, in particular, was like my own son when he was small. So, you never know, we may meet up some day (although I won't know you obviously) it's still nice to know you'll be there and I'm so glad Pastor McKim has people around him who appreciate him (cos we're worried about him here).
May God bless you and keep you, may He make His face to shine upon you and give you peace.
Love in Christ Lorraine
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black inga. spot on!! im glad to hear im not the only one who thinks musical director is outrageous!! im receiving my sanity back!!! thanks inga. but you hit the nail on the head i really believe that musical director is a cop out and i no that norman dosnt even have to visit anymore or do any pastoral work apart frrom pursuing the media. is there really any need fro ucb as lets be honest there are hundreads of people preaching every day on these channels. would it not be far better to reach the shore road? put more energy into that? just a thought
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jesus loves mini me saying in as much as ye did it unto them is a very weak argument, the bible also claims that jesus lost it made a whip went into the temple and wrecked it. What if the christians who dont believe in the prosperity gospel went into all the prosperity preachers churchs and wrecked them. It would not solve anything.
As for those people who send text messages and say not to contact them again because they have left the church how pathetic. I also got similar messages from some people in ww just because i left.
Blackinga thats a very good description of McConnell. I agree the clergy need to be accountable for the money they get there are too many con men and women clergy who do not believe and are in it for the money and power.
Debraards has silenced Lorraine's attempts to cover up for what happened.
George was going to get the church anyway so why did he not wait? Something dodgy must be going on since none of them will speak publicly about it.
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Hi Princess, if you check my previous blogs I have never attempted to cover up anything and kept my opinions to things that I definitely know and one thing I definitely know is that George McKim is a good and godly man. I am still not attempting to justify myself or Pastor McKim to you or anybody else, I am merely stating facts as I see them and, again, if you check, you'll see that I have offered very few until I spoke directly to Happy. My comments from then on were for him or her alone and were in no way targetted at the discussion on this blog. I was only trying to encourage Happy as I really felt for him/her and that was all.
As for saying that Debraards has silenced my attempts at a cover up with their post, it only goes to show that you don't know Pastor McKim at all. His fruits can be well and truly seen, both in himself and, through his ministry, in countless others.
I pray that you will be restored to a sound mind and one that doesn't only offer criticism, condemnation and judgement on those you really don't know.
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Second,
yawn, Pastor Norm had to take a funeral this wk!! But I suspect that even if he walked on water or divided Belfast lough you still would find fault! As far as "hundreds of people preaching everyday on these channels", well consider what the majority of them preach, the 'wordfaith' nonsense! OH and The youth outreach team has been up & down the shore road several times as well as having events over the summer for the kids which the parents are invited to come along to!
ps have you done any outreach on the shore road yourself?
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doea anyone know if ww is registered as a charity?
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hay lorraine george lead me to the lord 25 years ago in his mums house loved him then still love him today ,you go girl, princess what are you like mi5 cover up what a laugh
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so there you go red typical if the channels dont preach the way you like they are nonsense!! oh that we had more of your like with big hearts!!!! and as for norm he took a funeral!!! that will justify his considerable income. well as for the shore road shows how well your doing there,could you tell me actually how many people from the shore road actually go to ww? i would advise you to get of the wordfaith nonsense leave them channels and go out and try and win the shore road. someone with your sound doctrine principles will do well there. (though you could do with rembereing that moses knew he was the promised deliverer while he was in egypt. methinks you should still read a wee bit more.
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Hi 800, That's really great to hear. His mum and dad were lovely wee saints of God, total darlings both. My Pastor may have moved but, like you, when you've really known the man that George McKim is you cannot help but still be a wee bit vehement in your defending of him. He is my spiritual Father and I have known him for almost all of my Christian life. He's literally laughed with me and cried with me, been there when my papa, gran, sister, mum and baby died and so much more. I will always defend him because I have no doubts at all about him and I know that, unlike what others think, his silence in this matter is only because, because of the man he is he will not say a bad word against Pastor McConnell.
Thanks 800 I was feeling as if I was out on a limb all by myself a bit there and you really cheered me up.
Love and God bless
Lorraine
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Revdoc
When we get to glory, can you tell how many we are going to see? As far as I am aware we are only going to see 1 not 3. Also, when Jesus said "All power is given to me....", did that mean then that the other 2 in your 3 Headed Theory gave up all their power, thus meaning that the statement that all 3 are co-equal, co-eternal, co-powerful is now abolished?
Also, when you read through the Bible the Trinity doctrine is not scriptural. It is in fact a papish doctrine. The Bible constantly reminds us that there is 1 God, not 3. Paul calls Jesus God in the Bible, Thomas cried "My Lord and My God", yet the only God Thomas would have knew up until then would have been Jehovah. Also read Isaiah 9:6 when it says the Everlasting Father, does that mean then that there are 2 Fathers now? And when the angel came to Joseph in a dream and said that Mary would bare a son and that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost, does that therefore make the Holy Ghost the Father of Christ?
John 14:17-18 "Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him; but ye know him, for HE DWELLETH with you, and shall be in you; (18) I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU COMFORTLESS, I WILL COME TO YOU"
Can you explain the above verses?
And also your views on Pastor Hobson, taking a funeral?! That must have been a hard week's work for him along with conducting the choir for 3 songs on a Sunday and practising with them for 1 1/2 hours on a Friday night!!
Lorraine, your comments about Pastor George are lovely, he is a great man of God and leads by example and is an example to anyone wanting to stand up for the truth and have integrity. Bless you and your family.
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Hi All for Jesus, thanks, I really appreciate it, and God bless you too. I have tried to stay out of this blog as much as I can but cannot stand by and see my Pastor's name and character bandied about and tarnished by people who obviously know nothing about him (or they couldn't do it). I'm not trying to say that he is perfect as we know there is only one who is perfect, and that is our lovely Lord, but he is a very Godly man and I have only found 2 such men who I would defend to the hilt, my Pastor being one and Danny McVicar, my old Evangelist pal, who is now in Glory, being the other.
I don't know Pastor McConnell very well at all so refuse to comment on him but I will say this, it would be impossible to sit under Pastor McKim's ministry for 20 years, as I did, and not have a love and respect for the man, as my Pastor made his love and respect for him so very clear.
THanks again
Love and God bless
Lorraine
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HI Lorraine I just got in from work and was upset to see you had come under attack for trying to help and encourage me! You are toally a million percent about Pastor George. He is the real deal , my heart is broken at how him and his lovely family have been treated, and yet he remains so gracious and full of love truly, displaying "the fruit of The
Spirit" But this is where I am lost and disillusioned because I do know Pastor McConnell and he has been wonderfull to me and my family over the years...He may not have the same people skills as Pastor George but he more than makes up for it in his preaching and I do have to say that on a one to one basis I found him to be brilliant. So I ask over and over Whats gone wrong?
Thankyou Lorraine for caring and I would still appreciate your prayers
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Hi Happy, so nice to hear from you and thanks for the sentiments, they are much appreciated. I only hope that you do know that I had no ulterior motive in my previous blogs to you, they really were meant just for you and that is why I felt a little guilty about taking up the space on this blog. That is also why the comment I received came totally out of nowhere (or so it seemed to me). I had to go back and check what I had actually said as I just couldn't figure it out at all.
Our Pastor and his family are all amazing people. Linda is soooo gracious and a totally lovely person inside and out. The boys are just the boys, little scamps, totally mischievious (the cheek still shines brightly out of Elliot's little face) and the Pastor is, as I may have previously mentioned one in a million.
It is also so nice to hear about your thoughts about Pastor McConnell and I couldn't have put it better myself or so tactfully. His 'people skills' may be a wee bit lacking but the man deserves the credit for all that he's done, both for the Lord and for his congregation.
As to what's gone wrong, I can only think that Pastor McConnell found himself between a rock and a hard place. I honestly believe that he thought that he was sort of piggy in the middle and his decisions because of it may they be right or wrong were that of a man stuck in a position no man should have been put in. But, then neither should Pastor McKim have had to be put in the awful position he was. It's just a total shame and I really feel for all involved, but we are talking about men here, at the end of the day, and they are just like us, normal everyday people, who make mistakes. The only difference is that they happen to be people whose decisions matter a wee bit more than ours and therefore are up for a lot more scrutiny than ours, thank God.
I really am thinking about you and praying for you Happy and I do not envy you your position in the slightest as you are bound to feel that you are being pulled apart by all this.
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i think ww is starting to implode. i dont understand how they can treat people the way they do and still have the blessing of god.now the pastor at ww is preaching on the tares and wheat. ww is the wheat and pcn are the tares. where is the man coming from. he is blinded and so are the people.we really need the love of jesus in our hearts to overcome all this rubbish.none of what has happened has taken god by surprise.he will use all of it for his honour and glory.pcn has started and the lord has raised up a new standard to reach this land and what door the lord has opened no man can close.
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all4jesus,
I will deal with your points later, was wondering if Is 9:6 was gonna come up! I will explain the use of the word 'Father' in Hebrew to you later aswell!If the Trinity is a 'papish doctrine' as you claim and if Pastor George is "a great man of God and leads by example and is an example to anyone wanting to stand up for the truth and have integrity."
Sorry but those 2 comments dont add up as Pastor G believes in the popish doctrine of the trinity so how is he standing up for truth???
Notice you didn't even attempt to answer any of my points eg Jn1:1, Jn17 etc etc
See you still trying to use Jn14:17-18! well let me repeat again
He doesn't say HE would send them a father! What He is saying is that just as He (Christ) taught,led,loved,guided,etc etc then He Would pray TO THE FATHER to send ANOTHER HELPER (NKJV) to do the same.
ps the word 'another in greek is 'ALLOS'and "expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort" vines exp dict p52
"I believe that Jesus is God and that IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY." Godhead is a misleading translation. The greek word is 'THEOTES' and just means Deity ie Jesus was full deity,God.cf NASB,NIV,NRSV,ESV.It doesn't say he was the father!
Also was talking to a friend of mine at WW who knows Greek and told me that the greek word for 'orphan' is used in several different ways!'orphanos' can be used of "disciples left without a teacher" He told me to ask any oneness people to quote a greek scholar who agrees with their ridiculous interpretation of these verses! 'orphanos' was also used for a mistress who lost her lover!
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second,
sorry but are you saying that the health,wealth,prosperity teaching is compatible with Biblical Christianity? Please tell me exactly which scripture to read a little more!
Theology and doctrine are very important cf
1Tim1:10,4:1,6,13,16,5:17,6:1,3,2Tim3:10,16,4:3,Tit1:9,2:1,7,10,Heb13:9, 2Jn whole chp.maybe Paul,John etc needed a bigger heart!!
oh that we had more of your like with big hearts!!!!
Well second if that means tolerating some of the worse heresies Ive ever heard then i'll just keep my heart the way it is.
But maybe you think it's ok that the Wordfaith doctrines can be traced back through 'Dad Hagin' via E.W.Kenyon to P.P.Quimby and the New Thought metaphysics? THAT positive confession and thoughts can create tangible realities? That if a person is sick or is skint then that's their own fault? Do you agree with K. Copeland when he told a Pastor from N.Ireland who had recently lost his son in an accident, that it was his fault for not having enough faith?
Do you agree with Joyce Meyers assessment that Job's own fear brought the calamites on his life, not the sovereignity of God?
I could go on!
see your still dragging up the Moses thing,oh dear, oh that I could be like you and have a full knowledge of the bible!
Quite frankly, when people like yourself are more concerned about music directors wages instead of biblical truth it doesn't bode well!!!
I can see by your posts how big your heart has been towards said music director, but then as you also said," I dont have a problem with anyone"! mmmmmmmm
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alforjesus,
let me repeat this previous post....
The real question when it comes to this issue is, does the bible teach the preexistence of Christ with the Father? Jn1;1-2,Jn17,Philp2 the answer is YES!
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second,
you've been quite coy as to which church you attend,if any! It can be quite convenient to hide behind a cloak of anonymity when attacking another church! Does your church reach out in the area that you are based? Are you personally invovled in any evangelistic ministry? If you really do have a concern for the shore road, and not just using this as a pretense for hostility, then I would be more than glad to meet you and do some track,door to door work etc together! I really do mean that friend!
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alforjesus,
If you believe so strongly in the 'oneness' stuff,why are you attending a Trinitarian church? You cant possibly believe that the God would lead you to sit under a man who believes in such a terrible, popish, unbiblical,invention like the Trinity?
Surely the best thing for you and those of like mind at pcn and ww would be to go to the Church of God or start another church! If the shoe was on the other foot I certainly couldn't sit under modallistic heresy! Ps I'm not boasting, just explaining how strongly I feel about this issue!
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here here red!!
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hi god oh sorry revdoc not boasting, not much love in those blogs pal, whats the snow like on top of your pedestal
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lorraine lorraine lorraine your inner snake got the better of you in your venomous attack on me as you described it.
why anyone would trust george mckim after the spilt is beyond me.
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800lighthorsemen,
meeeoooowwww, that hurt kittycat! SO if i've no love then you respond by showing love in attacking me!mmmm
Disagreeing with someones viewpoint is hardly cause for your accusations!
I'm not the one who's been continually attacking individuals one this blog!
Believing passionately in the Trinity is hardly putting myself on a 'pedestal'!
Personnal insults are usually the last refuge of people with nothing of substance to say!
ps plenty of love coming across in post 379!!!!!!!!!!
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800lighthorsemen,
When Christ confronted the pharisees and called them "hypocrites" and "whited sepulchres", did he cease to be loving?
When Paul "withstood Peter to his face" for caving to the Jewish christians, was he being unloving?
I've absolutely no hard feelings towards anyone who's posted on these threads, but it can be difficult to get the feel of someones intent by reading posts!!
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red just got home calm down thats it breathe in breathe out .we may have more in common than you thank
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800,
thanks m8, mug of coffee (decaff) and a couple of jaffa cakes should sort me out!!
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Anyone else think this blog has gone on long enough?!
Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
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red you are making me jealous i haven't eaten jaffa cakes in years, have you got any tatyo cheese onion ?
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Lifeall4god,
awk don't be a spoilsport, i'm just starten to enjoy myself! lol
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800,
tayto cheese n onion, now thats manna from heaven! Actually had a bag at lunch time and put some of them into a tuna sandwich! And the two became one! mmmm
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mate thats brilliant its past my bed time c u later god bless
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Lorraine , you are lovely child of God I think you would be a great friend to have. lots of love and prayers.
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Thanks Happy, I think, by the sound of it, it's because I am a child of God this problem has arisen.
Hi again Princess, I definitely have no inner snake, I only have Jesus, praise His lovely name. You ask how anyone can trust Pastor McKim after this split, well, as you obviously do not know this man at all I challenge you to go to one of his meetings and at the end make a point of talking to him, don't do it in secret, speak to the man face to face and then come on here or anywhere else for that matter, and say whatever you please.
THe fact that you could think I have an 'inner snake' only serves to highlight to me, yet again, that I am only a sinner saved by God's marvellous grace. I am definitely lacking in my testimony and witness for the Lord, that I can't, and won't, deny as I am undoubtedly a miserable example for Christianity, however, Pastor McKim is not, which is why I reiterate my challenge to speak to the man before you condemn him.
I won't keep up this silly conversation, Princess, as I have nothing to answer to you for, you are more than free to judge me in any way you please but, as for me, thankfully, I love my Lord, and miserable sinner though I may be,I know He loves me too.
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princessnewsjunkie your post 439, how can anyone trust mcconnell after what has happened is beyond me. i know jesus said, by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples indeed if ye have love one to another. there are some people i do not like but i have to love them.
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Hello Lorraine dont beat yourself up i was trying to bring some humour into it talking about your inner snake. I hope your pastor has taught you that it is ok to laugh at yourself and that it is ok to disagree with other peoples opinions. I dont need to go to any meetings to speak to him i know what www is like. They inflict you with guilt about silly things that should be laughed about.
That is a good question sweeper. Last week he was preaching against free lance christians yet he has been a freelance christian for most of his career.
That is what i have saying all along to believe every single word of your pastor is stupid. When listening to the sermons it is more healthy to question them.
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Hi again Princess, I'm honestly not beating myself up, just telling it like I see it, and if you knew me at all you would know that humour is definitely my 'thing'. I have only been trying to explain why I hold Pastor McKim in such high esteem and, in truth, have therefore said far more than I ever intended. Having had Pastor McKim for my Pastor for 20 years and also having gone to Whitewell a few times over those years I can tell you that there is a VAST difference between the two, again why I was urging you to go and see for yourself.
I wasn't kidding when I said that I have literally laughed and cried with this man and I will yet again further try to explain (and then I'm really gonna shut up cos I'm getting sick of my own voice on this).
I had no confidence whatsoever when I became a Chritian. I had an alcoholic husband (need I say more!). ANyway, believe it or not that man, Pastor McKim had me (eventually) on stage playing drums (and I was good too, even though I say it myself) for 10 years, I also ran a group and a youth choir, did the most ridiculous dramas you could ever have seen and constantly performed in things such as fun nights and CHristmas shows, doing such spiritual things as (sorry I don't know what age you are so don't know if you'll remember this) oh flip I canny rememeber their names but the sketch was called Bouncy Bouncy and it involved me and the assistant Pastor dressing in 'fat' costumes and doing a number to the tune of 'Rubber Ball' and that is only one example of many. He also took me, and others, with him to prisons etc doing much of the same. I have been into mental institutions where we were the only ones asked to go back on and do the whole thing again as we were doing things like Superman, Wig Wam Bam and Music Man, and we had a guy come out, at the appropriate time dressed as Minnie Ha Ha with a tin of paint and 'War Paint' written on it and dressed as Superman.
I hope that covers the laughing (although the Pastor wasn't involved in the CHristmas shows etc he just sat there and had a break and enjoyed them). As for the crying, the same man came barging into the ward (when I was sitting crying in the hall, waiting for my sister to arrive). He was in a hurry because he knew we needed him as we had just been told that my mum had only 2 months to live. He eventually took hers and my sisters funeral within a couple of months of each other after they both died of cancer. Pastor McKim also came and waited outside in the waiting room when I was in losing my, almost 2 months from term, son. My own husband couldn't be found and my sisters were out looking for him. THrough this one of the nurses who looked after me through the birth was so touched that she came to the Lord. I can tell you that I was totally devastated by my loss, but also found it unbelievably awesome that God could use such a situation and such a simple thing and something that my Pastor did so naturally.
I hope this has helped you understand why I know I can trust this man. You can't go through things like that and not know a person, and love them, and trust them completely. He's never given me a seconds doubt not to trust him and that's what I mean when I say I KNOW that people couldn't say these things about him if they really knew him. I wasn't an exceptional case, this is just how he is, it's him, plain and simple.
Jings this has ended up being so long and I'm sorry there's a wee bit more to go. It plagued me the whole of last night that you thought I was attacking you. I honestly don't do attack. I did not mean to be rude but, unfortunately I recognised something in you that I had known in myself, really sorry about this but, bitterness and disillusionment. I hated my husband for what he put me through, I had no life, no friends, no money etc etc. When I became a Christian it was one of the first things GOd called me on and I knew He was telling me that He loved me in spite of what I was and how bitter and twisted I was and that he couldn't work in my husband with me feeling the way I did as it hindered Him (I would undoubtedly have undone any good God could do with my attitude albeit an understandable one,if only to me), I am only human, even though I am a Christian. THis was when, through Pastor McKim's teaching, I realised that I had to love my husband (something I had to ask God to achieve in me and replace all the negativity etc). I am telling you this very basically, sorry, I actually find it hard to believe I'm telling you at all, I mean on a public blog. Anyway, I also realised that all the bitterness and hatred I felt also, and more importantly, hindered GOd from working in my own life and my blog to you was actually heartfelt and sincere, and not meant as an attack, as I know the difference being free of all that has made in me, and I can only thank God for it.
Lastly, hurrah, I have really tried to stay away from all the CHristian platitudes and cliches and only tried to tell it from my own point of view, as I know there are people on here from all walks of life and backgrounds. Anway, as for believing everything that comes out of my Pastor's mouth - it's not going to happen. I am not a blind follower of my Pastor and believe me when I tell you that I have fought tooth and nail with him on more than one occasion, (you can ask him) although they usually ended up with us both laughing and relaxing about it - but not always. But, the fact that I STILL feel this way about him, knowing his 'warts and all', and he knowing mine, should really only emphasise what a truly remarkable man of God he is, that he STILL inspires and deserves my respect, love and COMPLETE trust.
I really hope this has helped you to understand where I am coming from and as I said I won't go there again as I've, no doubt, already said too much on this subject.
God bless you
Love Lorraine
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Lorraine, God bless you. You're quite a woman! (And I 100% agree with you re Pastor McKim).
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Hi Life all for God, thanks, that's really nice of you and I appreciate it. It's also so nice to hear about your agreeing about Pastor McKim, that now makes 4 of us on this blog and I am chuffed to bits, seriously, just because it makes me realise he has some support and I honestly don't mean in this split.
Love and God bless
Lorraine
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THANK GOD FOR PCN.
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Hi Lorraine that was so good and brave of you to share your story, Pastor George has been a Pastor in the truest sense of the word.He has a lot of support over here and ia going from strength to strength.
Whitewells loss is the rest of Ulsters gain
Lots of love
God Bless
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Hi Happy, thanks, but the glory definitely belongs to the Lord as you'll no doubt know yourself. That's so good to hear about Pastor McKim as that's actually why I started reading this blog. To see if I could glean anything of any support at all for him. We really love him and appreciate him here and it's been so hard thinking of them all over there with no-one. I know I just wanted someone to be able to give them a hug cos I can't do it myself and neither can the countless others here who would. I did, however, give him a big hug when we were over in March, but that's really when the worry kicked in for me as I have never seen my Pastor look like that in all the years I've known him.
Thanks again Happy and I echo both yours and Sweeper's sentiments as to me our loss is definitely your gain.
Love Always
Lorraine