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Wednesday 19 October 2011

Sarah McDermott | 10:34 UK time, Wednesday, 19 October 2011

Coming up tonight we'll have the latest from Dale Farm where bricks and debris have been thrown at police after they moved in to evict travellers from the illegal part of the site. We'll also examine why the UN is apparently so interested in the case.

We'll also be hearing about the case of an undercover police officer who took part in a criminal trial under an alias - branded 'institutionalised police corruption' by a leading defence solicitor.

And Iain Watson reports on a growing gulf between David Cameron and Conservative backbenchers on the question of a referendum over Europe.

Jeremy's presenting. Join him at 2230 on BBC Two.


  • Comment number 1.

    Twenty-eight minutes past six, and you tell me I am the first to comment - (putting on a Meldrew voice) - I don't believe it!

  • Comment number 2.

    Re the growing gulf with backbenchers. After the next election there will be 50 less backbenchers to worry about. The reduction in the number of MPs has not been accompanied by a proposed reduction in the "payroll vote", so any government will find it easier to coerce Parliament into submission.

  • Comment number 3.


    Remember Maggie? The gulf grew. Remember Tony? The gulf grew. Poor Brown - his gulf was too wide all his life. And now we have the next delusional distillate of Westminster - Destiny Dave - he believes a man can fly; fly in the face of all that is honourable and decent, that is. THE COMMON FACTOR HAS TO BE WESTMINSTER, AND PARTY POLITICS. I repeat, ad nauseam: Westminster is a citadel with ramparts facing us. The system pre-selects proto Westminster Creatures; we then go through a selection charade called democratic elections; then from the 650 ciphers, they elevate those most venal and, from these, crown ANOTHER ONE as PM.

    It is so stupidly obvious that, on this basis, our governance will be serial failure! Liam Fox is not a surprise - the surprise is that we do not bag ONE 'FOX' PER WEEK!

    Watch them posture - hear them expound - on TV and radio. Butter does not melt in their groin. All HONOURABLE to the last cipher. Yeah right. Pick one to challenge. First you get the: "I can't have anything to do with you - MP protocol applies." Try again (head email "I REQUIRE NOTHING FROM YOU, JUST INTEGRITY IN GOVERNMENT") and see how little their actions match the fine words.


  • Comment number 4.

    Shocked that the main topic tonight is not Greece surely this

    Is far more newsworthy.

    From the reports I am seeing it is not much distance at all from where we are now to a situation where protestors occupy the Greek Parliament. Greek police are not kitted up or motivated to stop such a huge groundswell of popular support who feel they have nothing to lose by effectivley, staging a revolution.

    Perhaps the EU will loan the Greek government some extra police to help out???.. from Germany and France perhaps....

    Just a matter of time, not if, but when.

    The Eurozone leadership may as well appear at their next press conference wearing, not Guy Fawkes masks but frizzy orange wigs and comedy red noses... because that is what they are starting to look like in the eyes of the world in the face of what is developing in Greece.

    Crazy that this is not the No.1 story for analysis and debate... unless of course NN has been told to play it down so as not to scare the horses..

  • Comment number 5.

    JohnConstable wrote: ""Maybe Bernie is going to be the first of many socialist politicians in the USA."

    Seriously? As I understood it, many people in the past migrated to the USA precisely to escape "persecution" by regulators back in their own countries. Put another way, these delinquents fled from those who would, had they stayed, "limited their freedom" and happily put them into prison or worse for what they were fond of doing. Socialists being regulators so as popular as herpes in the USA. This may go some way towards explaining the very high prison population in the USA, the abundance of guns, and much of the behaviour which we've seen described as "venal" in NYC in recent years. ..

  • Comment number 6.

    @4 I agree Jericoa. Here is the aljazeera report btw:

    What is being imposed on Greece is a Carthaginian settlement. They might as well sow the fields with salt. Greece would be better off declaring war on Europe and allowing itself to be occupied: The armistice terms couldn't be any worse!

    Few would disagree that the Greek ruling class have comprised a Cacistocracy. But Germany and France have benefited from the Euro at the expense of the periphery. Germany in particular has benefited from an exchange rate advantage. Greek GDP is a tiny part of the Eurozone - less than 3%. The rich countries could afford to be more generous - or at lest to enforce more intelligent "adjustments" which would actually HELP the Greece to meet its obligations, rather than destroy its economy.

    Greece should have been made to default and leave the Euro a year ago, for its own good. Failing that, let Greek sovereignty be abolished, and let Euro administrators be sent in. They wouldn't dare to do what they are forcing the Greek government to do.

  • Comment number 7.

    The truth is that the victims of the illegal settlements of the criminal communities are the local working classes who do not have the luxury of just leaving and when they have the audacity to complain of the blatant criminality such as fly-tipping, robbery, vandalism, intimidating the elderly in the area to do work they don't want done (as shown on a recent Channel 4 documentary) or keeping slaves it is the contemptuous Guardian-reading middle-classes who loath the working classes that mindlessly label the victims as "bigots" or "racists".

    They're not travellers, they're illegal settlers. They demand equality so when they commit these crimes (and they do, they really do) and are predictably treated just like any other criminal they then argue with the authorities that they're "special" and have to be treated "differently".

    They may fool the BBC, Channel 4, the Guardian and the Independent but they don't fool the rest of us which is why they're being treated like the criminals they really are - if they don't like then may I suggest that they travel?

  • Comment number 8.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 9.

    I wish the UN had been as concerned with the genocide in Rwanda as they appear to be with the Dale Farm permanently resident travelers. What locus does it have in this issue apart from mischief making? How does it justify its second guessing of the Courts? Has it nothing better to do?

  • Comment number 10.

  • Comment number 11.

  • Comment number 12.

    Steve-London wrote:""Still, we have to live in hope or life would become very depressing."

    No. that's a very big part of our current problem. Such naive belief in the power or value of optimism or confidence and the avoidance of what is "depressing" may be precisely what has caused the dire problems that we all about us today.

    The key term aside from impulsivity as the other side of self-control, is "negative reinforcement" (or relief) which can be a silent killer.

    Those who have been "getting on" in recent times have largely been plausible charmers who mislead for a living. "Snakes in suits" sometimes referred to as psychopaths..This is closely related to pathological self-centredness, i.e pathological narcissism which is a disorder of identity and awareness of consequences. Much that is called depressing is just healthy awareness of the down side of some actions, and their avoidance. Having one's brakes on can feel depressing. It can be healthy.

  • Comment number 13.

  • Comment number 14.


    ''Greece would be better off declaring war on Europe and allowing itself to be occupied: The armistice terms couldn't be any worse!''

    Simply .. spot on.. they increasingly see that, with that logically follows the realisation that they have nothing to lose by fighting and in turn revolution.. no less.

    I have to periodically pinch myself to make sure I am awake, that this is the 21st century and that we have a high understanding of our environment and mastery of materials through technology.

    A more logical explanation for what I can see in todays world would be that it is actually the dark ages and I am asleep having a strange dream about the world of the future and I will soon awake back to my life of daily struggle against the elements my fellow man and other beasts for survival.

  • Comment number 15.

    Have the police found any slave workers down on Dale Farm yet?

    Even the pikeys and diddycoys I knew as a child in the 50's and 60's would have drawn the line at that.

    Their limits were the benefits system (which they knew inside out), minor thieving, a bit of poaching, some dodgy car trading and bobs yer uncle.

    There are very few geniune 'travellers' about now - funnily enough I saw one old woman and her caravan on one of the back lanes of England last year near to my mothers place. Genuine article, a horse, chickens, wooden clothes pegs the lot, all parked up on a wide verge.

    She had gone when I went past recently - I asked my mother what happened and she said that the wealthy people (multi-millionaires who have a world-wide sports clothing empire) who owned a nearby estate objected to this old woman and her caravan as 'unsightly' and her being anywhere near their place and 'arranged' (not in a nice way) for her to be moved on.

    Seemed a bit brutal, especially as said multi-millionaires rarely drove anyway, usually being helicoptered in and out of their vast estate - but I suppose these people must have perfection in their lives at all times.

  • Comment number 16.


    In London: never more than 10 feet from a rat. And in life: never as much as a fag paper from The Ape. (And he's often a rat too.)

  • Comment number 17.

    The reason we've had wall to wall Dale Farm today is it is the state sending out the message 'we're in charge, don't even think about it'.
    Do you really think the media would have been covering it like this if it was going to be days and days of protesters holding off the police and bailiffs?

    That also explains the lack of coverage of Greece where tens of thousands of ordinary people are on the streets fighting for their futures and those of their children...not the sort of thing the state over here wants given anything but the briefest of mentions.

    As far as the Euro referendum goes, Cameron made a large part of his political reputation off the back of the last governments ratification of the Lisbon Treaty. Remember? Labour promised to give us a referendum over any new treaties then when one came along didn't!
    Dave made the most of it, marching up and down blowing his Euro referendum trumpet, talking of all the sovereign powers we were losing forever thanks to Gordon Brown signing them away.
    He promised us that any future government he was in charge of would give us a say on any Euro treaties that came along. He even refused to rule out pre-election some kind of retrospective referendum if he won in order to mop up any stray UKIP votes.
    I'm sure the only reason he said all this was because he knew once the Lisbon Treaty was signed that would be it treaty wise for years possibly decades.
    But...Oh dear! Now it seems as if the very treaty he made such a song and dance about us having our say on has got to be re-ratified, suddenly though Dave isn't so keen on us expressing our opinions. So in a U-turn every bit as jaw dropping as the Lib-Dems on tuition fees he is frantically back pedalling hoping no-one notices or makes a fuss.

    So Dave is doing exactly the same thing Gordon did!

    Any-one would think that once you cut through all the waffle there is really no difference between any of our parties...Surely not?

  • Comment number 18.

    #14 supplemental

    '' they increasingly see that, with that logically follows the realisation that they have nothing to lose by fighting and in turn revolution.. no less.

    You know what Sasha, it just occurred to me the 'leaders' know it too, the credit rating agencies have been in the process of systematically and carefully (slowly slowly .. not too quick to cause a panic.. not the same agency on the same day the same country etc etc) downgrading euro banks and euro debt in what appears to be an orchestrated pre-planned way now that I think about it.

    The mainstream media reporting systematically down plays the severity and significance of Greece to the people of europe in particular as well to stop some kind of 'run' .

    The stock market has been behaving extremely oddly recently as well, even in the context of the crisis, there is something phoney about both its level and the extreme daily fluctuations.. ideal conditions for algorhytm trading to cream off a %tage on pension funds and the like.

    Maybe they do have a plan and they are a way down it already, it is not in the public domain though and it will have been worked out behind closed doors ''in our best interest'' with meetings between high finance and politicians.

    Y'know, I keep on making the same mistake that these people are stupid, as I can not understand or relate to their behaviour in the context of their position, when actually they are not stupid, they are venal and cunning and, in some cases, charming and often rather damaged individuals.

    Given historic association between them and the world of high finance it is more likely that all we are seeing, as noted above, is a pre-arranged orchestrated 'untangling' of positions over a period of time involving politicians, high finance and media with the Greek Parliament fighting a determined rear guard action.

    When they are ready they will cut Greece loose but it will be made to look like it was a ''chaotic unwanted split despite their best efforts'' to maintain the pretence of a eurozone project and financial institutions will not loose as much as everyone thought.

    On reflection the above is probably more likely, they probably dont mind if we think them fools, our opinion in that regard is not important to them I suspect.

  • Comment number 19.


    Of course. Same demon-driven juvenile nature. Same ambition. Same preselection. Same bogus election. Same Westminster Creatureness. Same attractiveness to other Creatures. Same ultimate installation with near-absolute power.


  • Comment number 20.

    Miss Crickley (or was it crickey) for racial equalities European union thingy majiggy commitee.
    That might just have been the symptoms of over use of prescribed medication..or not enough. It would be wrong to mock so I'm gonna skip with that there.

  • Comment number 21.

    Crumbs - the lady from the UN wouldn't shut up!
    Excellent debate by Jeremy with Rosindell et al. The public should be able to have a referendum on staying/leaving/re-negotiating staying in the EU. Go Rebels!!!! Perhaps this is OUR "Arab Spring" after all ;o)

  • Comment number 22.

    MP Basidon - Shocked and Suprised! Guess I shouldn't be really... ...when condoning the actions of the state and the law. It sent cold shivers down my spine, as the kind of language I was hearing would condon the actions of National Socialist Germany during the 1930s and 1940s (upto august 1946). If 'the State' said it should be and 'the law' says it should be, then the Law and the State are right and not to be challanged. Unless, of course one has 'friends' in 'the right place', who can ensure the interprettation or re-inforcement of that Law is done in such a way that it favours one. The 'silent majority' of Germany during the above period 'all obviously' supported 'their government, their State and their Law'. Or did they? If they did would that still make what happened right? I hope not, otherwise I've been raised with a very wrong understanding of right and wrong... curiousity asks me "what would happen if the same MP were given the tax evation actions of one person, the speaking out against the State and its religion, causing major civil unrest, not to mention the actions of a third who believed they were more right than the majority of voters and their actions could lead to the break up of a major international 'partnership'?

    1. Henry Thoreau - Walden
    2. Jesus of Nazerath - Gospels
    3. Gandi - India and the British Empire

  • Comment number 23.

    @14, 18 - Jericoa "They" aren't fools, but they ARE the enemy - as sure as if a race of aliens had infiltrated the human population.

    Last weekend on Facebook, all people most people cared about was the Rugby and the X-factor (although Alexander Curzon did ask "who will downgrade Moody's?). Most of our brains have been infected already - it's reminiscent Of Robert Heinlein's "Puppet Masters"!

  • Comment number 24.

    re comment 21.At 23:06 19th Oct 2011, Mistress76uk wrote:

    "Crumbs - the lady from the UN wouldn't shut up! Excellent debate by Jeremy with Rosindell et al"

    You have got to be kidding, neither Paxo or that Tory git would let her have a word in. And I can't help wonder how Newsnight couldn't find a single Traveller to interview.

  • Comment number 25.

    James Forsyth looks like a man from a different era. If i was involved in casting..I'd put him into a Dickens BBC adaptation. Do you see where I'm coming from with that? ..or is it just me? Anyhow he appeared to speak a lot of sense..I was making a cup of tea at the time so only got the gist of what he was saying,

    Miranda Green has great hair albeit untidy..I would love to give it a brush.

    I do apologise to other posters on here as I add nothing nor contribute to good debate on here.. sorry about that.

  • Comment number 26.

    There are strict rules on British TV governing what can and can't be shown of politicians speeches for the purposes of satire, for example you'll never see any clips of PMQs on Have I Got News For You.

    It a shame really but understandable I suppose because by the time this Lisbon Treaty re-ratification has gone through it will presumably be possible to edit together a special PMQs between two David Camerons one pre-election 'opposition' Dave arguing for a referendum and the present day Dave arguing against!

    Maybe one for YouTube...

  • Comment number 27.


    Quite the most mature discussion I have ever witnessed on NewsyNighty. But although the Parliamentary reality of "chums before integrity" (public school style loyalty?) was exposed, IT STOPPED THERE!

    But that is a fundamental problem with Westminster - it is part of the Westminster Malaise. They have an incestuously nourished mind set that holds us in contempt. To repeat myself: Westminster is a Citadel with ramparts FACING US. We must dismantle it before ANYTHING can be achieved for the miserable masses.


  • Comment number 28.


    ...looks as though the fat cats are getting their money out.... .... I can see Greece defaulting they can't pay their debts, no way.

  • Comment number 29.

    #24 I'm with Mistress and Kev the UN woman wouldn't shut up. Wasn't she Irish, perhaps she didn't want them going home to Ireland.

  • Comment number 30.

    kevsey @25 "I do apologise to other posters on here as I add nothing nor contribute to good debate on here.. sorry about that."

    Don't apologise. You say what you feel. And you deserve to be heard as much as anyone else!

  • Comment number 31.

    #24. Hear hear. Paxman's behaviour was pretty awful - and that pompous Tory was really typical of the breed.

  • Comment number 32.

    '1. At 18:29 19th Oct 2011, RicardianLesley wrote:
    Twenty-eight minutes past six, and you tell me I am the first to comment - (putting on a Meldrew voice) - I don't believe it!

    Demographics. Nick Robinson's blog often opens only between 9 & 5 pm, denying any but professional commenters the opportunity to inform the 6 o'clock headlines. Often about 40 who 'speak for the nation'.

    Newsynighty seems to like to avoid any getting their teeth into what is proposed. Often because events can overtake the narrative already underway and they look silly(er).

    'the latest from Dale Farm where bricks and debris have been thrown at police after they moved in to evict travellers from the illegal part of the site. We'll also examine why the UN is apparently so interested in the case.'

    Before committing to an iSurf, how was the 'looking at' and 'examining'?

    Any comparison on the actions of professional activists in creating a violent confrontation to serve the 24/7 media maw, and then gifting 'questions being asked' about the police response?

    Or a bunch more 'how do you feel?' numptie holding a mic 'interviewing' a PR in a woolie hat?

    It was not until I surfed the internet that I found the MSM's 'Joan of Arc' heroine was in fact a professional agitator who had torched her own caravan.

    '11. At 20:53 19th Oct 2011, brossen99 wrote:

    Was Newsynighty keen to 'explore' this when they had Mr. Huhne dodging the whole thing a while ago, or is this a 'moving on' moment as certain government policies are tickedy boo with our trusted national broadcaster, so best not to look at them too much.

    As to the 'UN' and its interest, as many other acronymic incarnations with that prefix show, it is not the be all and end all of balance, trust and competence either.

    Maybe they could get 'emselves a gig where things look set to get... serious?

    The respective behaviours and statements from various protagonists being words from own mouths I'd be keen to hear some spin away.

    But maybe best to stick with protests that resonate with the twitterati, who seem to compose 99% of the population as far as some are concerned.

    I wonder who tonight's 'guests' will be. It appears to be a limited pool.

  • Comment number 33.


    I wonder how many buttons the fat-cat millions will buy when they retrieve their deposits?

    Could it be that wealth is not, necessarily, a sign of competence? Resonance with the Tory front bench there methinks.

  • Comment number 34.

    Does one 'super-corporation' run the global economy? Study claims it could be terrifyingly unstable

    Read more:

    A University of Zurich study 'proves' that a small group of companies - mainly banks - wields huge power over the global economy.
    The study is the first to look at all 43,060 transnational corporations and the web of ownership between them - and created a 'map' of 1,318 companies at the heart of the global economy.
    The study found that 147 companies formed a 'super entity' within this, controlling 40 per cent of its wealth. All own part or all of one another. Most are banks - the top 20 includes Barclays and Goldman Sachs. But the close connections mean that the network could be vulnerable to collapse.

  • Comment number 35.


    Hey Junkk! If you want to make NewsyNighty seem valid, vital and vibrant, listen to PM first.

    "It's fun fun funny and ends with a punny." (Those who remember 'Playaway' on TV, will, instantly, recognise Eddy Mair as Brian Cant reincarnated.)

  • Comment number 36.

    #4Jericoa (and others) from your link:-

    ‘One young man said to me that he was not prepared to see decades of social progress sacrificed to satisfy the European Union and the IMF.’

    Having just returned from a week in Greece (fortunately not Athens - and we got out before being grounded) I would add to the above comment that ‘Greece should not be prepared to see its unique lifestyle and culture distorted to fit the model being imposed by United States of Europe’. And neither should UK.

    The proposed referendum demanded by the online votes of citizens of this country should not be thrown out by Bilderberg Dave next Monday. It should ask the electorate whether UK should seek a return to the original concept of a European Common Trade agreement.

    Having watched BBC1’s ‘Britain’s Child Beggars’ last night it should be obvious that there are much poorer countries than Greece in the EU, such as Romania. Apart from the organised individuals shown ripping off our benefits system to fund their mansions back home, such nations must be heavily subsidised by EU funding, so why is Greece treated as the basket case?

    Incidentally we also visited Turkey – another totally ‘different’ lifestyle, which hopefully will not be ‘admitted’ into the EU, or we shall be further invaded by alien cultures.

  • Comment number 37.

    @36 II "Incidentally we also visited Turkey – another totally ‘different’ lifestyle, which hopefully will not be ‘admitted’ into the EU ......"

    But there are millions of Turks in the EU, mostly German citizens: former guest workers and their children.

    I've often thought that the fall of the Iron Curtain was a very mixed blessing for western Europe. I suspect that some of the older ex-Soviets must be enjoying the problems it has caused us.

  • Comment number 38.

    I was interested to hear the BBC report on the Mexico drug problem yesterday. A couple of things were missing from this report though was the guns supplied to the drug cartels are shipped in over the border by the US administration for all the usual reasons..its business as usual for uncle sam.

    Us British were quite good at having our hands deep in the drug market..remember the opium wars? well you'd have to get your history books out for that but you see similar stuff happening in Afganistan and the poppy fields. Those military men are not just shooting at the Taliban you know..they are protecting the heroine trade. Its very profitable you know.

    The old divide and conquer tactics of a country isn't just restricted to controling another country and then getting hands on any valuble resource or lands, its also used to control the drugs market. Those drug cartels that are killing each other and everybody else who gets in their way around the borders of er, well its all orchestrated from a dept connected to the US administration..its a little bit of a covert operation that they don't like to mention much in the press, your not gonna hear some drug and guns quips from Obama at a press dinner ...even if they've been caught with their pants down and with big boxes of guns and ammo in the back of some truck nipping over the border, that story gets buried..along with the reporter and his note pad. This has been going on for years. I just thought I'd throw that in to help fill some of the missing details from the BBC report that I watched yesterday.

    Today I shall visit my bank to pull out my last investments ..this one is a balanced fund that actually did well -only because I went in at the bottom of the market. I was waiting for an indicator; a sign so to speak before I pulled on this investment. And that was the recent assination attempt -allegedly -of a Suadi envoy with the US admin blaming Iran... Can you join the dots?

  • Comment number 39.

    EU Referendum (Events my dear boy , Events !)

    David Cameron said in late November 2009 (a few months before the 2010 general election) that if he would have liked a referenda on the Lisbon Treaty, but Labour had previously broken its 2005 general election manifesto promise to hold one and now the Lisbon Treaty is enforce he cant.

    Now the EU is amending the Lisbon Treaty , to incorporate the Euro bailout mechanism (whatever that turns out to be) and to tighten up rules on EU economic governance over EU members (a further transfer of powers).
    So at a time when the EU is modifying the Lisbon Treaty, planned to be completed by 2013, is there a better time to re-negotiate our membership ?
    I think not.
    So I whole heartedly support MPs, from all sides , to vote against their party whips on Monday.
    The vote is non binding on the government anyway , but it does give a strong message to voters that their concerns are concerns shared by their MPs.

    I noticed that Ian said that Labour will be also trying to tell its party MPs that they should vote against it. Here we are seeing that the Conservative and Labour leaderships all wish to deny the people of this country a say over our much evolved membership of the EU(EEC). I find it quite chilling.

    Opinion polls have shown that the population is unhappy with our current membership of the EU. This is not a fringe issue just for one particular party supporters , its far wider an issue that needs addressing.

    I'll be watching Monday. Will even write to my MP to encourage him.

  • Comment number 40.


    It would appear that anti-EU sentiments do not endanger the gravy ration, to an MP. Why else would they be waving not drowning, on the EU issue, BUT TERRIFIED INTO RIGID SILENCE, REGARDING THE LIAR FLYER?

    They prize 'HONOURABLE' above HONOUR - to a man and woe-man. This is not integrity.

    Weep England.

  • Comment number 41.

    Greek RiotCam Time

    Watch it while you still can: very soon the EU will ban any "tendentious" TV originating from bailed out countries.

    From the comments section: "This looks like one of the larger Greek riots. I saw people on fire earlier from petrol bombs"

  • Comment number 42.

    brossen99 wrote posting a youtube link.

    One of the comments was that socialism doesn't work (where?) and that by nature people are selfish. Whilst SOME people are selfish we tend to punish them, or treat them as odd (as psychopathic or narcissistic). Bit note, not ALL people are selfish. What is odd is that the USA promotes selfish behaviour whilst China punishes it. China is much bigger than the USA and it now has a better economy too. They seem to think socialism works.

    Lots of people say and post things which are not true, but they sincerely believe them to be true. I'm sure lots of people do exams thinking what they write is true too. Why don't more people realise that much of that they think and say is in fact false? If they did that they might be less optimistic, less bold, less....psychopathic?

    The problem with beliefs etc is that not enough people see that what they believe is actually false.

  • Comment number 43.

    Troika Releases Statement On Greece: Commentary Attached

    Summarizing the Troika'a statement, with some gratuitous commentary

  • Comment number 44.

    #41 and #43

    That would have been us if the British Euro supporters had got their way.
    And yet the media still put them on tele to tell us that the EU is the best thing since sliced bread and that the nay sayers of the project are kinda weird in not seeing it.
    It reminds me of the film the Matrix , when Morphious offers Neo the pills , one to see reality , the other to return to the matrix and pretend all is well.

    Real life is emulating a fictional film , astounding.

  • Comment number 45.

    Sasha Clarkson wrote: "Don't apologise. You say what you feel. And you deserve to be heard as much as anyone else!"

    Encouragement of the writing and saying whatever people feel is a big part of the tacit problem of Libertarian democracy i.e of unregulated consumerism, so the assertion that everyone deserves to be heard as much as anyone else, regardless of the merit of their contribution, is an endorsement of the very self-centred anarchism which many throughout the world are anonymously protesting against because of their awareness of the consequences at the hands of those who prey upon such naive beliefs in freedom, equality and human rights.

    If people here truly want to see change, they are only going to do so if they become more self-critical, and they are going to have to give up on some of the freedoms which have brought about this mess.

    Whilst Kevseywevsey was being healthily self-critical at the end of his comment, you are being (unwittingly?) subversive by promoting "entitlement". This system thrives on the perpetration and exploitation of vanity:

    Note, these boroughs are two of the poorest in Britain, are largely South Asian or Black British, and with respect to the former group, largely Muslim. Traditional Islam does not approve of Libertarian values, and how they are financed. The same secularisation (corruption) of their family values, was done to White British in the 50 onwards through a similar raft of commercialisation culminating in Thatcher in 1979. Much the same happened across the Atlantic. This ended in a "War on Terror" to secularise the new consumers which were imported to compensate for the low birth rate, and deter others from questioning or challenging the "merits2 of such Libertarian "freedom".

    Look a the consequences of behaviour, even your own, be critical of rhetoric - be far more self-critical, not less so.

  • Comment number 46.

    Riots in Greece or Gaddafi I wonder which one will get top billing on the MS news tonight?


  • Comment number 47.

    #45 brown-dog

    Awesome post and awesome John Pilger piece in the link.

    How tawdry everything is becoming as the economy is going down the tubes.

    How is it all going to be reversed?

  • Comment number 48.

    #24 #31

    The UN lady was accusing Britain of discrimination and racism for removing those travellers and Gypsies from the Dale Farm site. Come on - it was an unauthorized site to start with and they were offered alternative places to stay (including culturally accommodating ones). Paxo was right to challenge her.

  • Comment number 49.

    Hey, look what can be pondered when some seem distracted elsewhere by a vacant chair in lieu of a cabinet level spokesperson

    'So, contrary to the Energy Secretary's position, higher fossil fuel prices cannot explain our current very high energy bills. And, contrary to the energy companies, they are not merely passing on the extra wholesale costs of energy.

    And maybe the Huhne green agenda, involving huge subsidies to wind generation, which end up on all our fuel bills, is much larger than we've been told.'

    Or, in many cases, had asked.

    You almost miss the settling of science by the likes of Miliband. E and the rocket scientist in Ethical Man's kitchen, with a hand-picked audience who, in a flash, are convinced.

    Happy days.

  • Comment number 50.

    Steve-London wrote: "Real life is emulating a fictional film , astounding."

    Actually it's not that astounding. "The Matrix" was just a popularisation of what used to be known as the Husserlian Transcendental (and Phenomenological) Reduction which made the case that the world which science studies is not the immediate world which most people deal with in the Natural (common-sense) Attitude.

    It's pretty basic to the nature of science if one thinks about it. Just think about atoms and molecules, forces etc. Kant made much of this too viz noumena and phenomena.

    We tend to be rather child-like and egocentric without science (which is allocentric). It was inevitable that, with the spread of computing in the 90s, someone would make a film like "The Matrix". We can't make people think scientifically with a pill alas.

  • Comment number 51.

    museV wrote:"How is it all going to be reversed?"

    In part by encouraging you to get others to do exactly what you are already doing..

    More substantively it requires austerity measures (putting the brakes
    on) BUT IN THE PRIVATE AND THIRD SECTORS which is where most of the workforce is, where most of the self-destructive behaviour has been (it's 80% of the workforce) and where it continues to be. That can only be done i.e enforced by those working in the Public Sector by definition, so, it is a mistake to erode such Public Sector POSTS. It requires different people in those Public Sector posts though. It is posts not people which should be preserved, i.e we should not throw out the baby with the bath-water when austerity does hit the Public Sector.

    In a word what's required is more effective state regulation not less.
    The Public Sector has been made too weak (only 20% of the workforce) and it has been poorly staffed with too subversive legislation such the Human Rights Act and FOIA, which purposely undermined the Public Sector relative to the Private Sector (where these Acts do not apply).

    We are not seeing what is required. What we are seeing is either inertia or the opposite. One can only hope therefore that the forces are not entropic i.e truly dysgenic.

  • Comment number 52.

    '24. At 23:24 19th Oct 2011, microphage - And I can't help wonder how Newsnight couldn't find a single Traveller to interview.

    Despite the name, moving much seems not to be on the menu.

    Or maybe the only spokespersons deemed newsnightyworthy were more of an activist disposition, and easier to tweet?

    Anyhoo, as yet again the eager beavers still seem unsure what to cover tonight enough to make it worth tuning in, I'd say it may be interesting to which despots have met a rather summary end with only muted comment by the BBC, and which one got a trial and everything, and which Presidential warmonger has overseen how many of each during their tenure.

    Hope! Change! Hypocrisy!

  • Comment number 53.

    The Dale Farm issue & planning is never quite discussed properly.

    Improperly planned developments like this are probably not built to UK building regulations with proper drainage, services, pavements - many health & safety & traffic safety issues.

    Proper water gas & electricty supplies?

    These kinds of developments tend to be unhealthy to someone & how assessed for Council tax?

  • Comment number 54.

    These 'plastic travellers' were only there cheating the system because they can't do this/not allowed to do this in any other country?

    UN interest here is inconsistent as real gypsies & travellers are still persecuted all over Europe including Ireland - not in Britain - why doesn't the UN get its priorities right & list its action list for all countries with travellers & gypsies?

    Before anyone says anything here - some of my own great great grandparents were real Gypsies & 'Travellers' - and guess what - they 'travelled'!

  • Comment number 55.


    HomSap, like other animals, is intolerant of difference.

    There is another group of wanderers who drew the differencist reaction, wherever they went.

    I understand the English experience it in Scotland.

    Unless expelled, indigenes do best to stay where they are. Of course, if some fool invader draws daft boundaries, this can have the same effect . . .

    Rule Brittania. I wouldn't start from here.

  • Comment number 56.

    The woman from the UN was on a rant, and more racist than anyone else. Incidently, Cameron rightly apologised on behalf of Scottish land owners and all of Britain, on the behavior in ireland. Will Britain ever recieve an apology from what is now Italy for creating division in Britain, especially for two walls to divide the Country island, an apology from what is now Germany and Denmark for making the southern-ish Britons become a pretend made up nation called England for most of England, and an apology from Ireland, for making the northern Britons become a pretend made up nation of Scotland, thus all being devisive, and dividing our island Country to this day.

  • Comment number 57.

    DELICIOUS (#56)

    The only thing Cameron will NEVER apologise for is - Cameron.

  • Comment number 58.

    And in the future, will we recieve an apology from this eu body for carrying on many of these actions (and some cleverly different actions/plans/treaties) against Britain, for the destruction of Britain, that the previous have done.

  • Comment number 59.

    Quite aside from whether it's legal to kill a head of state (who was being courted by Blair etc not too long ago) in this atrocious way, another question which I would like looked into if not answered is whether, if, all of these guns being fired in the air are NOT firing blanks for the cameras, where do all the rounds come down, with what velocity, and what protection is there for kids etc walking in the streets when they do come down on their heads?

    Furthermore, when our politicians celebrate these acts, what exactly are they celebrating? Why, in recent weeks, when 'rebels' have been assaulting urban areas populated by civilians, has the UN not imposed a 'no-fly-zone' to protect these civilians, or sent UN troops in to stop the 'rebels' maiming and killing the innocent?

    People accept what they see without asking questions it seems.

  • Comment number 60.

    55.At 19:45 20th Oct 2011, barriesingleton wrote:

    Please do!


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