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Friday 14 October 2011

Verity Murphy | 14:56 UK time, Friday, 14 October 2011


The news that Liam Fox has resigned as defence secretary has changed our plans for the programme. We will no longer be running a piece on how proposed changes to planning regulations might affect urban areas and speaking to Lord Rogers about this issue.

Instead the whole programme is devoted to Dr Fox's resignation, the events that led up to it, the questions that remain and where this leaves the government.

We will have analysis from our Defence editor Mark Urban and reporters David Grossman and Richard Watson.

And we will be joined on the programme by guests including shadow defence secretary Jim Murphy, former head of the British Army General Sir Mike Jackson, and journalists Fraser Nelson and Miranda Green.


Liam Fox has just resigned as defence secretary saying in his letter to David Cameron that he had "mistakenly allowed the distinction between my personal interest and my Government activities to become blurred". Tonight we will have the latest on that.

Plus, recently there has been focus on how government proposals on changing planning laws could affect rural areas, but not so much emphasis on the impact on urban areas.

Award-winning architect and government adviser on urbanism Lord Rogers is concerned that slanting the playing field towards developers could be disastrous for our cities. He joins us on the programme tonight.


  • Comment number 1.


    Nuff sed

  • Comment number 2.


    Is that some sort of double entendre? (:o)

  • Comment number 3.

    'Tonight we will have the latest on that.'

    As he's gone, rightly in my view, and not before time, other than wondering who the next will be, one wonders if the latest will be much more than gnawing on a stripped bone.

    But if I hear from any host the immortal leading phrase 'how damaged/embarrassed is the government by this?', especially to a specially selected guest who will happily take that softball to run with, I'll know there is life in the fox-hunting hounds yet.

    And there is always Mr. Letwin, who has taken up the baton nicely, with Mr. Huhne holding the fort for the coalition partnership's other liability in residence.

    They are all a despair to any seeking competence in leadership, but I do have a bitter recollection of who was there before, and who is waiting to continue their... er.. 'work'. And those acting in concert.

  • Comment number 4.

    The resignation was inevitable as he had become a liam duck, (Geordie pronunciation).

    Dr Fox has a useful professional qualification which could benefit society and ensure a decent standard of living for himself. Will he choose this path, or will he lurk at the periphery of the corridors of power, profiting by his connections and hoping for a comeback?

    The light side or the dark side?

  • Comment number 5.


    The level of weasel-speak, from politicians caught in the headlights, has reached Pythonesque levels in recent days. Half a brain is quite enough to register the elisions, obfuscations and non sequiturs.

    Let's have a spot on NewsyNighty, with a language analyst and a psychologist, to metaphorically debag, tar and feather, the worst transgressors.

    In passing: is it me, or are those MPs caught 'playing the system' all too frequently THE MOST POPULAR in Westminster?

    Nuff sed

  • Comment number 6.

    uk charged more to keep europe fuel bills low?

    In 2011 Germany — no increases in electricity, gas increased by 11%. France — electricity increased by 3%, no increase in gas. Italy — no increases in gas or electricity. Spain — electricity increased by 1.5%, no increase in gas.

  • Comment number 7.

    I have a local planning problem should the aggragate company start excavating millions of tons of gravel from a wild place by a creek, which might fill with water and cause flooding inland. It all seems go at the moment, just waiting for the final sayso.

    The funny thing being this land has Ramsar status, SSSI and SPA protection. And that's all a load of phoeey, 'cos if the company want the gravel the company can take it, as the land owner is in agreement with the proposal. Why on earth do we bother with these protections, they mean nothing at all.

  • Comment number 8.

    @3 "They are all a despair to any seeking competence in leadership....etc"

    Alas Junkk, I'm afraid I agree. Right Left or Centre, the dearth of talent and wisdom is depressing. Do they really reflect the society they come from?

  • Comment number 9.

    #4 TRUST ME, I'M A DOCTOR..................

    Nuff said!

  • Comment number 10.

    @5 "Let's have a spot on NewsyNighty, with a language analyst and a psychologist, to metaphorically debag, tar and feather, the worst transgressors."

    Great Idea Barrie - and follow it with a political version of Viz' 'Profanisaurus'!

    Eg "I have done nothing wrong, but......" = "OK, I can't get out of this one, but I have enough friends in the House to use as a powerbase for a comeback."

    "It was merely an error of judgement." = "It's only wrong when the other side does it."

    "I greatly appreciate the work you have done for the government." = "Goodbye!"

  • Comment number 11.

    My political algorithm suggests that perhaps the " Corporate Nazi's " were willing to sacrifice Fox in order to get Phillip Hammond out of transport because he was doing a particularly good job with it. Greening is an unknown quantity except that she had massive exposure to the eco-fascists when fighting the proposed third runway at Heathrow. I suspect that she will be pretty useless, and perhaps more than as usual engineering illiterate, easy meat for the lobbyists to deceive with flights of fantasy investment scams.

  • Comment number 12.


    I never graduated to Viz, but I do remember Sir Humphrey using 'Courageous', to a Hacker suggestion - meaning suicidal.

    On another tack: a lot of stuff is now 'historic' even before a finger has been lifted. Obama is a serial culprit (though he is now - oh the irony - ON THE WRONG SIDE OF HISTORY.)

    As for 'incredible' Dave, I wonder if he will ever realise the Freudian self-sabotage of that word, in association with all his incredibly heartfelt protestations?

    It's a minefield, and every mine is a gold one.

  • Comment number 13.

    NO BALLS "A FREAK OCCURRENCE" according to this BBC story:

    Those of us who have dispassionately observed the UK political scene might beg to differ!

  • Comment number 14.

    A - more than usual covert - Star Chamber?

    A - future - Coup d’etat foiled?

    A vulpine alternative to a central “Red Riding Hood” character?

    A forthcoming ‘can of worms’?

    Pandora’s Box perhaps?

    More ambition than sense?

    A Patsy?

    A Dead Duck?

    Whichever way you look at it what stands above it all is another near perfect demonstration of poor judgement by one person ......

    And an even worse showing by our Deity!

    On top of this we get the - IMO bizarre - ‘official’ reaction to the particularly serious ‘misdemeanour’ by the ‘guy’ whom, for some inexplicable reason, found a few sheets of paper too heavy to carry and couldn’t find his way to the shredder!

    Just remember - as if you could/would forget - these people are running the country!

    Please note that I haven’t typed ‘ .... into the ground’ at the end of that last sentence .

    Others may choose otherwise.

    Your choice!


  • Comment number 15.

    A while back someone said"..the Americans want to trace their roots back to the Anglo Saxons....that's why they saved our ass in two world wars, to preserve the stock!"

    Is it not more likely that they wanted to keep the regulators at bay?
    The Saxons came from Germany after all, and many of the American de-regulating elite trace their anarchic roots further East. Saxons are regulators.

    Speaking of which, our more pressing problems are economic, but look up the 17 Eurozone members vs the 10 non Eurozone members commitments to the ECB (paid up and nominal).

    Look for the big players inside the Eurozone and thus to the 5 billion paid up by the Eurozone states vs the 120 billion nominally committed by the Non Eurozone (nearly half of which is committed by Britain).

    Then think what the EU Project is (The US anti Warsaw Pact/USSR Marshall Plan), and how political and economic union was tried by right wing social democrats in 2005, was thwarted by France and Holland, only to be followed by the Lisbon Treaty in 2007, and then the whirlwind of the Credit Crunch etc to finalise.

    Have we been too focused upon ourselves to see this perhaps?

    If one looks up the birth rates for Europe, Japan, Korea, why are they ALL below replacement? What are women doing instead of raising families?

    Try to work this out what this means for the future workforces (OECD PISA do this every three years) and what it means for services to dependents as these populations age. Older people beyond 45 don't count much as they don't have kids, and beyond 65 they don't work either so become a net burden. In addition, what does it mean if half of each school cohort in education goes on to "university" whilst the other half doesn't? How does that impact upon the birth rate and the workforces skill base in the future?

    If one asks what it means economically (in terms of reduced productivity), for taxes collected by The Treasury, and for international borrowing and thus sovereign debt, one should see a problem, as revenue to fund Public Services must progressively fall as these populations shrink mustn't it?

    Importing people won't help much in the longer run if they're relatively unskilled and can't be improved through education (it's how people are born genetically which matters). Many of these new Europeans won't be very productive relative to other nations which have better control over their populations, so they'll just make the problems worse in the end.

    Finally, one must ask why our designated 'enemies' appear to be those places in the world whose governments don't have such evidently self destructive policies. Their ways are not our ways, but are they not more biologically fit ways?

  • Comment number 16.

    I'm doing nothing tonight so I'll watch Newsnight in real time. Whats been happening in the news this week..anything interesting? Having a rare quiet night in will give me the opportunity to have an epsom salt laxative drink to give me a good clear out. I've ensured there are no obstacles between me and the bathroom...I don't want to get caught out like last time. Maybe I'm telling you more than you care to want to know about me...its a bit like BBC Northwest local news because thats how I feel whenever I watch that rubbish, I'm forever thinking when I see Gordon Burns read the telepromt: Do I really need to know this?

    Just turned the TV on and Oliver Letwin has dropped some papers. Don't know what thats about. Hows the Fox story going? I told you that story had no legs.

    Anyhow ..all roads lead to George Soros.

  • Comment number 17.

    Fox gone for breaking the rules as anyone in the Government and Civil Service would be for doing what he did no whitch hunt he was stupid and brought it on himself - shouldn't even be on the back benches!

  • Comment number 18.


    "Mistakes were made" - indirect speech. We all know what that indicates.

    "I'm sorry for this" - imprecise. Not really facing culpability, just sorry (for self?)

    "Meeting with DEFENCE CONTRACTOR". Sandbags? Drawbridges?

    "Fox, 4 years preparing for job." Hammond, instant genius (and taller).

    With governance like this, we are, rightly, the standard by which all others are judged.

    By jingo.

  • Comment number 19.

    #15 brown-dog

    Yet another astute post.

    Maybe the others just can't see the bigger picture (accepting Jericoa who maybe has seen the light and decided to move on to more favourable climes, whilst he still can).

    The influence there is not so strong as here...Australia was outside the Marshall Plan.

  • Comment number 20.

    Pat Buchanan’s SUICIDE OF A SUPERPOWER: The Suicide of Liberty

    By Paul Craig Roberts on October 12, 2011

    "Unz reported that white Americans who comprised 70% of the US population made up only 25% of Harvard’s enrollment and that the composition of the student bodies at Yale Princeton Columbia, Berkeley, and Stanford was much the same.
    Asians who comprised 3% of the US population comprised one-fifth of Harvard’s enrollment, and Jews, who comprised 2.5% of the population comprised between one-fourth and one-third of Harvard’s student body.
    As Buchanan puts it, the country’s native-born majority has relegated its own progeny to the trash bin of history."

  • Comment number 21.

    THE WORST OF THE WORST (#20 link)

    Reading the link, I find Our Dave's Jingoistic appellation: "The Best of the Best" - used to describe volunteer mercenary killers - comes back to me, forcibly.

    The planet has long been in the grip of maleness, and led by EXTREME MEN. Britain is the bellwether in this misdirection.

    Extreme Man only knows that BIG IS BEST. Big power, big area of control, big adulation (big delusion). Under 'BIG IS BEST' the Worst of the Worst gain absolute power: WE GET OURSELVES ANOTHER ONE. (And let's not be fooled into thinking the WoeMen will save us.)

    When the Worst of the Worst rule, serially, with the cry "Best of the Best", ever on their lips in eulogy of EXTREME MALE BEHAVIOUR, 'doom' is a comforting word.


  • Comment number 22.

    Whilst I guess it's understandable that Gavin Esler rather keenly prompted one of his (perhaps a little too cosy?) MP interviewees last night that the Fox issue be now closed given his resignation, given that Israel IS an ally, one thing which may still warrant critical attention is that with all these vocal "Friends of Israel" in Parliament and the "Friends of Palestine" being far less salient despite the growing Muslim population in Britain which predictably resents being regarded, not as essential tax paying friends, but as potential 'terrorists', one has to ask if there isn't some incentive for the Israelis to keep the conflict in the region going?

    Is this not a rather sordid illustration of how some go about winning friends, money, and influencing people whilst vilifying and alienating others as "terrorists"?

    How smart is that when it's the fastest growing ethnic and electoral demographic in Britain?

  • Comment number 23.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

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    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

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    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

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  • Comment number 27.


    Chuka Umunna, speaking on Any Questions, just declared the MP "SACRED TRUST".

    Nuff sed

  • Comment number 28.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 29.


    On that premise he reserves the right to ignore me. (I have a letter.)
    I shall not give him the opportunity to either snub me, or be ineffectually 'helpful' (a common MP ploy).

    I doubt you will find many MPs prepared to cross the BBC.


  • Comment number 30.

    Sadly, if you think objectively about how our Libertarian system practically operates, "abrogation of" governance by devolving more and more to unaccountable (the FOIA and Human Rights legislation does not apply to the Private Sector and Third Sector) NGOs such as "charities" etc, it's inevitable that "government" policy will now be made by money changing hands (business and the markets). Although this, within a statist or "totalitarian" Command Economy (still a democracy believe it or not) was designated as corruption or criminal behaviour against the people (state), it was because almost everyone outside the SEZ soft labour camps was employed by the state. In the West such slippery behaviour is still seen by many as venal, but as many have said (including Mr Stelzer on Newsnight), it may be venal or immoral (as Mr Obama said recently) but it's NOT technically illegal. These people are not criminals in our system.

    Hence Mr Fox just apologised for the APPEARANCE of wrong doing. What he was accurately telling everyone was that what he did was NOT illegal.

    I can see no other reason why Civil Servants did not prevent this debacle from happening, as it is their job to protect their Ministers, i.e to protect the offices Ministers hold.

    Many in Britain and Europe still appear to think that they live in a statist nation. This is of course technically false. We now live in Libertarian (anarchistic/de-regulated) non nations where business and the markets rule, not the "muppets" and their minions (as Paul Mason recently reminded us). However, many of the "muppets" must know this.

    They are performers who like the lime-light. Their personalities fit these largely non-job description, and we should remember that we vote for this political-economic system, and so we largely get what we deserve.

    Mr Medvedev live on Russia Today gave a different kind of talk to his party people, Some might find it refreshing/enlightening to see a politician willing to be judged by demographic Performance Indicators?

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    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 36.


    Prompted by a friend, I just watched the Illsley debacle - sorry: interview. Jeremy seemed unable to get his mind to purchase on the issues that Illsley was COGENTLY presenting. A very odd performance. Is JP a touch Manichean?

  • Comment number 37.

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  • Comment number 41.


    I think JJ-multinames would dump on it, just the same, Aunti. Plus ca change . . .

  • Comment number 42.

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  • Comment number 44.

    I wonder if the authorities /Kleptocracy / believe that the current seedling demonstrations will dissipate.

    Austerity has barely even begun in most states and along with the growth of austerity and the growth in the numbers of youth whom feel they have 'nothing to lose' will the movement grow and grow and grow.

    They can do nothing to stop it excepting a radical deep rooted change in the current financial model which thier corporate and banking friends will not allow them to do.

    I guess we will just have to throw the lot of them out then, strip them of honors, wealth, privilege and throw many of them in jail. Up to them if they want to avoid that.

    lets start with the board of goldmans, those who presided over the greek financial assessment, the former ceo of lehmans, fred the shred, the murdochs and thier cronies, corrupt politicians in a kind of financial nuremberg trials.

  • Comment number 45.

    barriesingleton wrote "I think JJ-multinames would dump on it, just the same, Aunti. Plus ca change . . ."

    Indeed, plus ca change..... There's no telling ageing, fixated, anarchists anything. Just as those who wanted anarchy in the UK in the 60s and 70 finally got it in the 80s, there are those today who are
    (unwittingly) doing the same people's bidding.

    "Observers say that, while the original protesters in Spain had concrete demands such as seeking a cut in working hours to tackle unemployment, many "Occupy" protesters are vague in their demands."

  • Comment number 46.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 47.

    Auntidote wrote: "@42 Mooching at the car boot sale this morning it struck me how arrogant post 42 may seem to people who have struggled like Robert De Bruce in these columns for years. And I must apologise for that to you and the other stalwarts for that and my impulsive egocentric behaviour generally.

    It truly doesn`t reflect the person I am by nature save in the narrow sense that I have so much to say about the wretchedness of innocent people`s lives who are not as fortunately placed as we are Barrie."

    Such behaviour is indeed part of us all, and we now know from research that there ARE important individual differences, that these are genetically programmed or set-pointed, and that under stress many of us tend to perform less than optimally. These are indeed distressing times for many, and if the mean population "set point" for egocentricity/impulsivity has been changing for years as a function of longer term demographic drivers, we certainly have a problem. Higher educating, and then sending females into the workforce, is a relatively recent phenomenon (around the 60s is when it really began to show, but the trend had started much earlier with their mothers) phenomenon. It is not part of Orthodox Jewish, Catholic or Muslim tradition. It is secular and Libertarian. This will be a most unwelcome paradox for many in the 'Western' world as it requires one to accept that salvation comes through loss of freedoms, i.e. through regulation, not de-regulation (anarchism).

  • Comment number 48.

    And I would bet that "brown_dog" is an avatar for JJ-multinames so he/she can talk to him/herself when there isn't enough attention.

    Phrases like "Please think carefully about this" and " people here still do not understand what Libertarian (anarchistic) "Governments" don't do" are a dead giveaway.

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  • Comment number 51.

    '49. At 11:53 16th Oct 2011, Auntidote -
    Relatively rich kids.... on the political pull ....leading the sort of folk..'

    Leading? According to the mouths of such babes, they have no leaders.

    However, 'they', the RRKs and their joiner brown shirts, do seem to be getting, ahem, 'pointed' a lot today.

    So far, from SKY to the nation's treasure, on a slow news day with 24hrs to fill, all I have so far seen is prompts like... 'how ANGRY are you?' almost provoking a kick off. Complemented by 'just how disproportionate were the police?', whilst cueing up the usual whinge industry suspects in the studio who really do not seem to have anything better to do that critique the handling of folk who don't really know what they want, but are pretty such everyone else shouldn't have anything either.

    Maybe their should be a special?

    Jeremy Paxman seems to have ignored what IS being demanded from the public, namely a compelled fee to fund a very healthy salary. With one other big difference, in that I can choose my elected representative every few years, and kick 'em out if they fall short.

    Others I appear to have to put up with for ever, no matter what.

  • Comment number 52.

    Why does Paul Masons excellent recent post, contrary to all porevious posts, not have any facility for comments?

    Of course it must be just a glitch, the BBC can not possibly be biased towards keeping a lid on these protests.

  • Comment number 53.

  • Comment number 54.

    I AM NOT MOVING - Short Film (7 minutes) - Occupy Wall Street

    Have you noticed how the Govt controlled main stream media is reporting this growing protest movement...?

  • Comment number 55.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 56.

    'It has been discussed within the MoD whether Werritty is being - knowingly or otherwise - eun as an agent of influence by the CIA or Mossad.'
    'Who paid for Werritty's 18 overseas trips with Liam Fox and his stays in exclusive hotels in the world's most expensive destinations?
    what does he live on? The answer is that Werritty is paid by rpresentatives of the far-right US and Israeli sources to influence the British Defence Secretary'
    'The British defence minister holds frequent unrecorded meetings with somebody promoting the interests of foreign powers is much worse than a little cash-grabbing.'

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  • Comment number 59.

    ''It amazes me that we are not like Greece and Ireland by now.''

    I know you know this but it did promp the response in my brain as follows.

    We are like Geece and Ireland !!, .... if you include off balance sheet items like PFI and banking liabilities (about 250 billion and god only knows respectively)

    The only reason we are not is because our accountants are better at hiding stuff and the global elite still like / need the city London and so are less inclined to expose the sham at the moment until they get another London... too fond of its convenience, nice shops and friendly politicians.

    #52 supplemental.

    On a browse through the BBC, Main news items that allow comments at the moment are:

    - Royal Honour Wooton basset

    - Israel publishes prison swap list (judging by many comments on there a lot of people have lot to learn about Israel and what it is prepared to do)

    - drought aid appeal

    - Free parenting classes

    - rural rubbish

    If that is all we are allowed to comment on .. why bother?

  • Comment number 60.

    And another thing..

    What ever happened to the Oliver letwin story.. such a juicy bit of viewer figure enhancing news one would expect to be on the front pages for days, the opportunities for jokes and increased circulation at the expense of a human characature of an upper class twit are almost endless...

    Yet not a story to be found..

    Maybe DC is still close friends with Rebekah and others... one major embarresment in a week is bad enough 2 would (seemingly) require that they talk to their mates in the media and make sure the story is buried for a while in some kind of desperate attempt to rescue DC credibility in the character judgement dept.

    He is the Frank spencer of character judgement is seems, yet he is allowed to run the country.

    and finaly..

    Notable not a single politician turned up to the demonstrations in London, I wonder if they ever will? All the sentiment in the population against the financial system yet NOT ONE representative of the people shows up to talk at a demonstration on that very subject.

    Says it all.

  • Comment number 61.

  • Comment number 62.

    It's been a long tradition for the Right to run a "shadow" foreign & military policy in the USA - an official line coming out of the state department, whilst the CIA runs a parallel, unadmitted policy carried out via black ops - e.g. the Contra scandal, the arming of afghan insurgents against the russians or the use of proxies like Saddam Hussein to fight their wars for them. None of these hidden policies were put to the electorate - none are subject to the democratic process - so are beyond the rule of law and therefore arguably unconstitutional.

    In Europe the political culture is much more liberal and accountable, so the scope for the sort of uncontrolled activities we see in the US government are much less - as the relatively supine approach of EU NATO members shows.

    For Dr Fox and his Atlanticist cabal, the UK government's official foreign policy via the FO & MOD would have been much more moderate than he would have wished - but he could rely on his direct, unofficial connections into the Pentagon & CIA to provide a channel for him to influence the alternative, black ops agenda, whilst being part of the legitimate UK government's operational mechanism.

    Sri Lanka is beyond the writ of NATO - and a theatre of social conflict ostensibly on left-right political grounds, but actually rooted in racial and religious differences - and a golden opportunity to get involved with supporting a rightwing government which is receptive to supportive approaches from overseas and on the look out to augment their military arsenal against any possible tamil resurgence.

    Great damage has been done to long term US interests by the clandestine activities of this unaccountable, freelancing by intelligence community activities. Saddam Hussein was the creation of the CIA - ditto the post-communist government in Afghanistan & successive pro-radical islamist regimes in Pakistan - the authoritarian arab despots have been extensively supported and aided by the CIA to take the steam out of anti-israeli sentiment in the middle east.

    The fall of Dr Fox and his acolyte has let slip for a moment the curtain of concealment to reveal the way that the Right's global coordination system works through informal, unrecorded and unaccountable activities such as the many meetings now uncovered, paid for by rich rightwing donors willing to bankroll IMHO these "conspiracies" for their own political ends.

    In Elizabeth I's time many similar activities were rife by various nobles and courtiers motivated by religious, cultural or national interests - but anyone found "freelancing" woul

  • Comment number 63.

    In Elizabeth I's time many similar activities were rife by various nobles and courtiers motivated by religious, cultural or national interests - but anyone found "freelancing" would be immediately deemed to be a traitor to the Crown because they were not authorised to act in this way by the Queen and so opened her to the risk of coordinated action by the Catholic-dominated powers across the channel - and so they would pay for it with their head.

    Today there must come a point at which the line of legality is crossed - some point at which the "freelancing" actions of those in high places cease to be legitimate political activity going beyond any notion of mandate, accountability, democratic process and the rule of law - at this point as the legal line is crossed we would no longer apply hanging, drawing & quartering, but after due process and conviction, long term incarceration should follow.

    To castigate Tony Blair for the invasion of Iraq on the basis of the black ops dodgy dossier with the benefit of hindsight has now become received wisdom. But with the Fox affair we have cast some light on the inner workings of the powerful people who seek to influence events by operating outside the formal structures of government.

    David Cameron needs to make the same clean break with the past over this affair as he did over the phone hacking scandal and the unspoken conspiracy of silence of politicians and News International. He needs to make it clear that there will be no alternative foreign, military strategy unaccountable to parliament outside the rule of law and the processes of government.

    If there is any evidence of wrongdoing that comes to light from this affair from the formal inquiry into it, then the full force of the law should be applied without delay.

    But I'm not holding my breath...

  • Comment number 64.

    Sasha Clarkson wrote: "And I would bet that "brown_dog" is an avatar for JJ-multinames so he/she can talk to him/herself when there isn't enough attention.

    Phrases like "Please think carefully about this" and " people here still do not understand what Libertarian (anarchistic) "Governments" don't do"
    are a dead giveaway."

    I have noted how you and Barrie Singleton seem strangely
    (pathologically?) keen to identify anonymous contributors to this blog, even when it's an anonymous poster (or someone elaborating upon what someone else has posted).

    This is surely ego-centric behaviour? What purpose can it serve other than to personalise, trivialise and distract from the points being made?
    It is how the pathologically ego-centric behave rather than allo-centric people interested in grasping what is going on and productively managing their way in the world.

    Why not address what's said rather than imagining *who* people may be?
    If you knew, what difference would it make?

    In focusing upon what's said (and contributing to that), you may advance your own and other people's grasp of what's going on in the world instead of being distracted by chimera.

  • Comment number 65.

    Auntidote wrote: "@54 My experience of the global middle class types who populate institutions like the UN and EU and the BBC is that they get where they are today by grovelling and toadying and talking whatever sense or nonsense is currently fashionable and likely to get them promoted....which is amusing when they waddle about on the moral high ground taking haughtily about principles and human rights and Israel`s right to exist etc while ignoring England`s or Palestine`s right to exist or the human rights of folk in the slums whose misery is compounded by the latest wave of asylum seekers.

    Now the trendies are in a real stew .....because they they don`t know whether to stay loyal to USA/Israel and its CIA and NATO and EU where there are lots of plum jobs.....or jump into the unknown waters of RT and Max Keiser...which could implode and make their CV look very dodgy when the USA/Israel win the battle and Mr Fox is running the entire EU!"

    We have a problem if we resort to pejorative nouns, verbs, adverbs and adjectives to circumscribe practices which are the way that most people have been encouraged to behave, accept as de rigueur if not the sine qua non for "getting on".

    It's going to require major change in core behaviours to turn this around. One of my points above was that those protesting about the Libertarian economic infrastructure have got to take on board that 80% of the economy is now Service Sector and this depends on Financial Services, loans, derivatives and so on. What is going to take all that's place? Like it or not Fox was doing what most of the rest do.

    We are seeing the Public Sector (20% of the workforce) being eroded every day to pay for the profligate borrowing in the Private and Third Sectors, as Public Sector cash in the kitty available to Governments in the Libertarian system. They can't touch private business, and even if they tried they'd soon find they didn't have the executive resources to effect it.

    The big questions really do require some radical analysis, and that's far more radical than most people here have begun to grasp. People do not equate Governance with Public Sector in the UK etc. They should. Nor do they grasp the significance of shrinking populations for GDP because they don't see the shrinkage. Less young people means less revenue, less to govern with......

    This is new(ish).

  • Comment number 66.


    Great link, I can see there is certainly a great deal of truth in what he says, as to whether it is to the extent he claims would need rigorous critique, irrespective... highly likely that wind energy savings in carbon emisions (lets pretend they matter for a moment) are relatively small or potentially non existent.

    I can see a case for wind on the local level, many of the problems he cites are due to a 'National Grid' set up and the requirement for highly responsive idling equipment wasting energy to guarantee heavy industry demand.

    There is surely a place for wind as a local supplementary or primary energy source solution outside the grid and I think in such a context it would work very well for a relatively small low maintenance turbine which could be linked into a basic pump storage scheme (a tank on top of a hill) or a ground source heat storage system.

    A system which serves a few hundred houses for example. The sort of thing the local community could maintain themsleves mostly, take pride in doing that and be detached from the NG... no money in that though.......

    #62 / 63

    Yes, the veil has slipped for a moment, seems strangely careless somehow.

    I am suspicious even of the aparent 'mistakes' within the global elite such is my distruct after studying 9/11 and, much to my own shock coming to the conclusion, based on the balance of evidence, that it was (as a minimum) known of in advance by US authorities.

    Personaly I think David Cameron is up to his armpits in all of this sort of thing and he would never be allowed to ' make a clean break' from it even if he wanted to.

    Lets not forget how he led a standing ovation for Tony Blair on Tony's departure from parliament.. and he keeps many of the same friends too in media land.

    If you are looking for a clean break you will have to look beyond Westminster, perhaps in the space in front of St pauls for example, its a start.

    Interesting to note Paul Masons latest piece which, oddly, does not allow comments, is, non the less, the 'most shared' on the BBC website news stats.

    If you are into broader historically rooted conspiracy theories along the illuminati lines (Tony Blair - middle east peace envoy- wearing a white robe at Rupert murdochs daughters baptism on the banks of the river Jordan rather fuels these things!)

    They may not have envisaged the www in the form it has taken along with its ability to bypass mainstrem media, so it is possible the 'shadow' government system is under duress and unravelling abit.

    Perhaps the apocalypse and re-birth they prepare for is actually their own apocalypse and the re-birth they expect to be at the vanguard of will have nothing to do with them although they may witness it.

    They are gonna be really upset when they get to 'heaven' and find satan dressed as an angel.

    ''suprise'' !!!!!!

  • Comment number 67.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 68.


    I have been wincing at the hypocritical pronouncements of Obama and Clinton since it all kicked off - and Jingo Dave and Bully the Spud of course. They confirm their fool/knave status with every breath, and the fact that the voters


  • Comment number 69.


    Our web of vested interests, headed up by politicians who brag righteousness to the world, hides the most insidiously corrupt regime on the planet.

    A miners strike was beaten by stocks of coal; can our hypocrisy be ended by 'stocks of' unemployed, retired and THE GENUINELY RIGHTEOUS?

    Make it so.

  • Comment number 70.


    Nuff sed

  • Comment number 71.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 72.

    Auntidote "I don`t have the least "problem" resorting to pejorative language and furthermore I resent being patronised by people I suspect of being traitors to my interests and to the idea of English democracy.

    As to your passing reference to population control I am all for it and absolutely and resolutely against the sophistries peddled by the "faith community" suggesting that we can go on overpopulating the globe without risking calamity.(There were two billion people when I was born and it`s now SEVEN billion!!)

    We do NOT need more people of ANY age (they have already made our welfare state unworkable)and contrary to received religious opinion "God" is very unlikely to "provide" for the seven billion and rising that we already have."

    You should see a problem as we do. As I said, many do not see the nature of the problem, just some of the consequences. We actually have an undetected (by most) long-term DEPOPULATION problem across all of the Libertarian democracies, one which is a slow burning biological apocalypse, the manifestation of which is economic decline. THAT is the radical problem which has to be seen and possibly addressed by a population and its elite rendered childlike through long-term dysgenic differential fertility. People do not see what drives this, and that some of the enemies of "the idea of English democracy" have, in the past, and are today, trying to wake people up to this and its insidious modus operandi. Immigration and female emancipation were meant to be past palliatives to a radical problem with the Libertarian system, a problem which was recognised by Government(s) in the 1930s and officially so in a British Royal; Commission in the 1940s. Most people do not see this, most people can't be told either..if you try and tell them, they fly into narcissistic rages. That's the tragedy.

  • Comment number 73.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 74.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 75.

    #53 Yes Kev it goes along with this

    and this

    and this

    but ssshhhh don't tell anyone! Britain only has around 20 million more people than it can naturally cope with, when the food and water run out!

    10 million came in the last 10 years alone, but of course it doesn't matter, especially not to the indigenous ones. Just think of aborigines, maoris, american indians, we'll soon be gone.

  • Comment number 76.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 77.

    '66. At 22:27 16th Oct 2011, Jericoa
    Interesting to note Paul Masons latest piece which, oddly, does not allow comments, is, non the less, the 'most shared' on the BBC website news stats.

    The presence, or not, of comments on blogs is indeed interesting.

    The techniques to deal with those that don't suit are spreading.

    Infinite referalls.

    All-purpose House Rules, that even if yoiu get an advice deliberately don't specify what exactly the problem is, ranging from an 'ism to scaring the horses.

    Closed for comments.

    Broadcast only blogs.

    Watertight oversight (where a sudden commitment to integrity means stuff cannot be mentioned until proven)

    And now a raft of 'accidents', where existing threads get wiped, or stalled or vanish or 401.

    So passing on is not quite the same as having a say, especially in this one click twitter age.

    And with twitter now deemed by the BBC and its finest as the one source that trumps all, I am a mite concerned when I read this from a senior BBC editor, whose bon mots can seemingly immediately inspire so many...

    '@paulmasonnews Paul Mason
    Can ppl let me know if they get wierd tweets or DMs. I have unvirused my account bt let me know. I hope they were funny and within BBC rules'

    Rules were made to be broken, one guesses. Well, unless it's well, here.

    So it's hard to judge whether this is genuine, a spoof, or just the normal BBC recommended reporting one might expect:

    @paulmasonnews Paul Mason
    RT @PennyRed: Report for @NewStatesman - Inside Madrid's Puerta del Sol protest #15O #ows #occupyeverywhere

    Rallying the troops seems an odd function to be promoting.

    ' "They can't ignore us. We are the 99 per cent."

    On top of how 'angry' everyone is, I'd love this 99% figure to be clarified, especially by media a bit keen to roll me into 'us' when it suits.

    In particular as there only seem to be about 10 involved in that blog, and many not as onside as the organisers, and their PR RT'ing boosters, may have hoped for. Hardly 'speaking for the nation'.

    Quite where Mr. Mason fits in, I am not sure, especially as the BBC's sourced output now seems to be in the hands of odd bods with nefarious IT skills in Romania.

  • Comment number 78.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 79.

    NOT QUITE GONE (#75)

    Indigenes get to run the casinos and brothels Liz.

    As for mega-schooling for micro-beings: ALL get 'lost' in schools, but some excel at being lost, AND BECOME MPs. As JJ Miltinames would say: “THINK ABOUT IT.” (;o)

  • Comment number 80.


    But THEY control the application of the (vague) Law, and are not listening anyway. "Those whom the 'Gods' wish to destroy, they first make mad."

    I am not a number - I am not even allowed to 'DO a number!'

  • Comment number 81.

    78. At 09:49 17th Oct 2011, Auntidote wrote:
    @77 Well Junkkmale your right wing views...

    ...your Thatcherite/Tea Party ideas.What would you change about Britain if you were in charge?

    A bit 'wingist', maybe? Good job the mods don't see that as likely to do anything that contravenes something.

    Still, they are just my views, much as many seem to feel others should not have them, or be allowed to. I simply query certain facts, with URLs and quotes, and you weigh in on who you think I am. Interesting. Especially in light of the defensive stance.

    I'd engage further, but harking back, the minute I do start answering demands the mods get deployed.

    But since you ask, the definition of free speech in certain media could deserve looking at.

  • Comment number 82.


    I think you have just summed up something very profound Junkk. Here comes The Deluge!

    We are still 'living within the lie'.

  • Comment number 83.

    Barrie ;)

    I too keep forgetting that few posters are to the slightest degree interested in the truth.

    Well, other than their own. Speaking of different views from different posters..

    Et maintenant, en avant de la deluge! To the barricades mes amis!

  • Comment number 84.

    OH NO IT ISN'T! (83)

    Nice! (And how did you get that 'Frog lingo' past the Blogdog?)

    In passing: The Werritty* business card has raised a LOUD cry against falsehood, among the Nutterati (politics and press) yet I cannot elicit a murmur, in response to the FIVE LIES of the Liar Flyer - signed by Dave - ANYWHERE. (One MP phoned me to confirm and urge me on.)

    The closeness of 'Werritty' to the word 'Verity' is delicious, in light of the above.


  • Comment number 85.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 86.

    This weeks Defence/Education/Health Minister is (fill-in-the-blank).

    It is not possible to take these organs of Government seriously when well-meaning amateurs are installed as heads of department, when in businesses of similar scale to these, people usually have to work extremely hard for decades to get to the same position.

    What a ridiculous pantomime and, for education and health, ill-befitting of a Government of England.

  • Comment number 87.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 88.


    Too right John! Westminster governances is not about OUR contentment and advancement. Dodgy Dave banging on about "Wellbeing" is the 'MOCK' (one of many in D mock crass Y. We are pawns on the English board-game that Westminster's over-elevated ciphers play.


  • Comment number 89.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 90.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 91.

    85. At 12:03 17th Oct 2011, Auntidote wrote, for the nth time...
    What are your general political/economic views Junkkmale?

    Blimey, what do you want... a manifesto? Did that before for another demanding name big on answers to questions, and only one way, but also using a curiously familiar tone. You are welcome to scan back through my body of work and locate it; though it was a while ago.

    And please stop pretending that "they" will silence you

    Wasn't sure I was, but OK, I shall stop pretending.

    I feel that ...

    I suspect you and some others ...

    Now, where have I heard that before, and seen this technique used ad nauseam? wouldn`t last a second in the bear pit of the House of Commons or on programmes like QT and Newsnight.

    Possibly. So it's kind of lucky that these venues are not considered first choice places to be chez JM. Mainly because one is pretty sure those who inhabit them are of a type whose company may be considered a trial. Not the only places of course, but the commute to and from the PC makes tolerating the braying of dogmatic bores easier to tolerate.

    I ask again Junkkmale...what would YOU do if you were given control of Britain? Or is that too straightforward for you to comprehend?

    Question comprehended. Along with the intention. And mod-approved poking*. Again. Almost a repeat of one that has gone before. New name; same pack drill.

    I recall a great Dave Alan joke where a sadist and masochist are chatting, and the former suggest to the latter that, given their respective predilections, they repair to a private place and get on with things. Once there, the agreeable masochist bears all and demands of the sadist to do his worst. He, of course, simply smiles and says... 'no'.

    Enjoy that dark, lonely place you are in. I'm no sadist, so wherever it is, I am not going to join you down there.

    *ps, nice one with the #90. I refer to the mods, of course. Glad you are now cool with anything 'considered likely to disrupt, provoke, attack or offend others,
    be racist, sexist, homophobic, sexually explicit, abusive or otherwise objectionable
    Or contain swear words or other language likely to offend'.

  • Comment number 92.

    '90. At 14:06 17th Oct 2011, Auntidote wrote:
    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules.

    Glad I took a copy in case anyone has cause to wonder why it was allowed up in the first place, and to stay up for so long.

  • Comment number 93.

    All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

  • Comment number 94.

    93. At 19:12 17th Oct 2011, Auntidote - keeping records of our posts in case they should be lost to posterity!

    Or, possibly, a wise precaution?

    Your ramblings I could care less about. The actions of the national broadcaster do concern me. Allowing through a clear insult at all, much less for so long, was telling.

    I wonder who referred it?

    Many people would find that rather creepy

    Will remember that the next time you cut and paste any post to fuel your next tirade.

    'after a few months of contact with this blog

    So few months: so many incarnations.

    and thirty years as a mental health social worker

    Priceless. And when did you take over the workplace?


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