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Friday 9 September 2011

Verity Murphy | 19:20 UK time, Friday, 9 September 2011

Tonight Kirsty Wark presents an hour-long special on the 10 years since the 9/11 terror attacks live from New York.

We will be hearing from key US members of the Bush administration - former defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld and former Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff.

Mark Urban has a film on the US response to the attacks and whether it was driven at times by a desire for revenge.

And we discuss the events of 10 years ago and the effect on the decade which followed with guests including Carl Bernstein, Suzanne Vega, Christiane Amanpour and Fran Lebowitz.


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  • Comment number 1.

    Perhaps it is long overdue for Newsnight to clarify if it contributed to help viewers decode, demystify and debunk the doubtful information
    or continued as a pulpit from dubious self-appointed commentators presented by the media as 'experts'.

    Did media commentators on Newsnight offer enough analytical input to help viewers understand how the discourse of threat is produced and perpetuated since 9/11 and did it also offer any insights regarding the appropriate means to deconstruct and decypher them?

    Over the past ten years,did Newsnight expose any elements who exploit some incidents in an emphasis-added, over blown fashion for gaining advantage, claiming scoops, competing for ratings and scoring points?

    One looks up to Newsnight to provide retrospective and reflection on recent tendencies and how it directed its coverage more towards realistic representation and away from rhetoric.

  • Comment number 2.

  • Comment number 3.

  • Comment number 4.


    Dubya loves his abstracts; "Freedom was attacked today" - "Freedom will be defended".

    Terror attacked Freedom. Terror was tracked down by The American Way and given a dose of, thoroughly deserved, Justice - in Guantanamo. Terror could not be released, for obvious reasons, so was declared guilty by association.

    “Only the reality has been changed to protect the idiocy.”

  • Comment number 5.

    So NN is talking about what happened 10 years ago, meanwhile Greece is on the verge of defaulting, and when I say verge the rumour is it will happen over the weekend, which is likely to cause bank failures, IMHO the viewers would get more value from an analysis of whether the cash machines will work on Monday than what happened 10 years ago, remember that bank crisis was followed by monetary crisis and then WWII that cost 70 million lives last time this happened.

  • Comment number 6.

    A few questions for Mr Rumsfeld:

    1) The Bush administration did its best to link Iraq to the 9/11 attacks, something blatantly false, even according to the official paradigm. Lying does not necessitate the utterance of a direct falsehood. It can be done by innuendo, and conflation of separate issues in the same paragraph, as this CS monitor article shows:

    2) Then there is the issue of Mr Rumsfeld's sophistry on matters of torture. If Iran had waterboarded captured US troops, how would he have described it?

    3) Here are links of Dick Cheney and Bush II attempting to rewrite history.

    In view of this blatant dishonesty (or Alzheimers), and the known and documented predilection of parts of the US military and CIA for "false flag" operations, eg Operation Northwoods*, is it any surprise that many people are unwilling to believe anything said by US government officials, past or present, concerning the alleged perpetrators of 9/11. This especially when reputable people with no public track-record of lying make a credible case:

    4) Finally, even if the Iraq invasion were totally justified, how can he (Mr Rumsfeld) have been so naive and ignorant of the turbulent cultural and political history of Mesopotamia as to make such inadequate preparations for "winning the peace", having ousted Saddam Hussein? Did he personally do any research? Did he listen to his advisors, or did he overrule them?


  • Comment number 7.

    Some truly excellent and searching questions in the posts above but as the BBC positions itself as a global broadcaster it is less at liberty to ask them of America than ever,because the global middle classes and their superiors in the financial oligarchy have developed their mythology around 9/11 and the global media are not able to contradict it without appearing disloyal.

    Even the alternative explanations for 9/11 appear largely to re-enforce or re-establish the myth of western power and of US/Israeli cleverness.

    What I miss terribly in Britain is any sense of principled opposition to American capitalism and it CIA and military machine.And the burial of any sense of shame about Baha Musa`s dreadful murder somehow makes this ugly homicidal cynicism worse.

    Have we progressed since the death of Saayid Qutb caused my early disillusionment with Washington`s London puppet regime?

    Are we on the "right side"? Who dare ask and face if by doing so they face the displeasure of Westminster and the BBC?

  • Comment number 8.

    Sorry. The last sentence should read: "Who dare ask the question,if by doing so they face the displeasure of Westminster and the BBC?"

  • Comment number 9.

    Hee,hee, you couldn't make it up!!!!

    But this government can!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Comment number 10.

    @9 The Conservatives had Lady Porter and Lord Archer,but then Labour had Sir Robert Maxwell and Lord Paul I think. Party politics is a smoke screen. There is one indivisible political oligarch class,and if you follow the money it tells its own story!

  • Comment number 11.

    And some of yesterdays news...

    ...... or am I talking of us as yesterdays news.........

  • Comment number 12.

    CASH FOR ACCESS (#9 link)

    I was discussing the changes in Planning earlier this evening. As an aside, I said; "I suppose the big developers will have been shouvelling cash into Conservative coffers."

    Nuff sed.

  • Comment number 13.

    Exceptionally brilliant Newsnight tonight! ..sensitive, intelligent, lively, revealing of a range of American sensibilities, 10 years on. Analylical and moving

    Good work Kirsty and Mark....

  • Comment number 14.

    I live in San Francisco. Will this be available to watch online, or to listen to on BBC radio? Thank you.

  • Comment number 15.


    Nuff sed.


  • Comment number 16.

    @11 Yes Lizzie.

    If by "us" you mean the English and the England I grew up in after the war.Nothing of what we Little Englanders believed in and were proud of then is anything more than an embarrassing inconvenience to a metropolitan elite that makes it`s living by toadying to every other nation and interest and ethnicity and religion than the ones we were taught to love and respect.

    It`s a sort of reverse empire,where those who born here are the least regarded and most ignored.

    Talking to a civil servant about my pension I looked at a booklet produced for my information and the photo on it was of a smiling Chinese granny and her grand daughter.Sweet,but when did Chinese people start paying National Insurance or join the EU?

    We are back to my refrain about de facto power.Quietly and subtly but very effectively "we" is become "anyone but us"!

  • Comment number 17.

    @13 and 14 Yes guys,but I couldn`t watch more than a few minutes of it because it WAS about a "range of American sensibilities" and nothing whatever to do with mine!

    How many Americans will tune in on the tenth anniversary of 7/7,or even know about the London Bombings today?

  • Comment number 18.

    And come to think of it, how many regular posters are truly "batting for England" when they put in their penny`s worth here?

    You may live in England and think of yourself as a native,but where do your strongest loyalties lie?

    I notice that a lot of people talk rationally about all sorts of issues until their real agenda is exposed by debates about subjects like Islam versus secularism or anything critical of America or Israel`s "right to exist".

  • Comment number 19.

    I will take more interest in the "product" of the so called British Broadcasting Corporation when it covers issues like:

    The role of Wall Street, Soros and the CIA in my national life and the prosperity of Britain.

    Why the BBC covers American elections and Egyptian "springs" while being mysteriously quiet about unrest in Israel and the farcical EU election process which delivers us British into the hands of some of the most unaccountable and dubious people and institutions in the world.

    I could write hundreds more questions, but intuition tells me that the censor will become enraged by my searching questions on a blog owned by a BBC that places my impudent concerns far behind it`s wish to ingratiate itself with our American masters.

  • Comment number 20.

    'Mark Urban has a film on the US response to the attacks and whether it was driven at times by a desire for revenge

    Can't wait. Oh, I did. probably as well. I actually first read that as whether the film was driven as a desire for revenge which, on balance, didn't seem any less credible from an outfit with an often odd sense of 'we'.

    3. At 21:54 9th Sep 2011, barriesingleton wrote:
    Nuff sed

    In the spirit of 'not quite enuf, at least over here', as it seems things moved on before a chance was taken, any feedback on my questions posed in the previous thread to the last 'Nuff sed' before this latest on the topic?

  • Comment number 21.

    I switched off after Kirsty's supine and sycophantic interview with Rumsfeld. Oh yes, he was charming, and she pointlessly asked the "talk to the Taliban" question several times, but that was obviously allowed, and he only pretended to answer it.

    There's no point in interviewing someone if you're too frightened to do it properly.

  • Comment number 22.

    Thank you for reminding me just how evil, arrogant and intellectually bankrupt Donald Rumfeld, Dick Chenie and George Bush really were ten years ago - and IMHO still are.

    We could have done with more on the links between the Bush dynasty and the Saudis that led to the emergence of Bin Laden and his creation Al Queda, the role the CIA played in putting Saddam into power and keeping him there, the way the CIA's blind support for the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan led to the Taliban coming to power and how the USA created the dictatorships in rhe Middle East that are now threatened by the Arab Spring, not to mention the cancer eating away at the heart of that region's peace and prosperity, the Zionist government in Israel.

    NeoCon politics have done immense damage to the world, but their days are now numbered in the Middle East without the likes of Mubbarak to provide a lightning conductor for the zionists and the departure of the boggiemen like Gaddaffi, the old paradigm of it being vital to confront large swathes of the arab world and arm pro-western dictators nearby falls to dust.

    I welcome the prospect of the sort of Arab Spring we are seeing in Egypt today spreading across the whole arab world which the USA claims to support, but is in fact a massive threat to US interests in the region and their special relationship with the despotic major oil producing countries like Saudi Arabia.

    Cutting off Israel from any relationship with the arab world combined with the other factors of rising social unrest within her borders, the financial pressure from the US debt crisis reducing direct support for their economy and the sheer cost of the Israeli military, all point towards a bleak future for zionism - and about time too.

    One may ask WHY the Us has persisted with their efferctive blank cheque for zionism - the answer is almost too horrible to hear.

    Borne again fundamentalist christianity in the USA is one of the keystones in NeoCon politics - and a central dogma of this religion is that before there can be Judgement Day and the second coming of Christ, Israel must re-establish itself and rebuild Jersusalem - so "Zionism" must succeed - so in order for this to happen, the US must enable the zionists to fulfill their obssessive, racist objectives in Palestine at the expense of the Palestinians and in total contempt for the muslim world.

    Yes oil matters - yes the legacy of the Cold War in the Middle East is still there - yes the various flavours of islamic fundamentalism influence events - but behind it all, the%2

  • Comment number 23.

    @21 Hear hear Sasha!

  • Comment number 24.

    Proletarian @ 18

    You ask a question - you may live in England and think of yourself as a native, but where do your strongest loyalties lie?

    Speaking for myself, this is my personal ranking - family, friends, local community, England, EU/Commonwealth/USA, the worlds citizens.

    For this Englishman, there is no room for (political) Britain in my universe - I see the Government and so-called mainstream political parties at Westminster as an impediment to the aspirations of the people of England.

    Somehow, we, the English people have kind of ended up as bottom-of-the-stack in our own country.

    We English are famous for our tolerance but it can and has gone too far IMHO.

  • Comment number 25.

    @22 Hear hear Richard.

    Far too much good stuff in that to respond to specifically,but I do wonder whether you read the other posts in these threads or simply dump and run?

    And on the odd occasions I have looked in on the NN blog over the years I have often seen some really intelligent,apposite and cogent posts among the other routine flack about the farce at Westminster.

    But here`s a thing,NONE of the good stuff is ever reflected in the grovelling soft-ball NN deliveries aimed at neo-liberal and neo-con monsters like Rumsfeld and Soros and our home grown versions in Westminster, either!

    Could these threads be a sort of "cold sink" whereby our frustrations are dissipated and deflected by futile moaning,but to absolutely no effect?

  • Comment number 26.


    I so agree Mr Constable,except for your comment about "we English" being "famous for our tolerance".We are really infamous for being the daftest, most easily put-upon people on the planet!

    I was born in England and dearly wish to live in a free independent England with its own democratic politics quite separate for the American dictatorship that rules over most of the world today.

    Three of my grandparents were well educated Scots people on the Island of Islay, but like millions of other residents of the British Isles their children were effectively "cleared" to make way for America`s favourite mix of races and cultures and religions under what appears to be a capitalist aristocracy with its roots in New York and Tel Aviv.

    Perhaps we should petition New York for English independence,freedom and democracy? After all, the USA and CIA generously granted "freedom" to countries like Israel and Georgia and Kosovo and Libya? Why not us?

  • Comment number 27.

    These are old links, but another piece of the very murky 9/11 picture:

    I'm not anti-semitic. I undoubtedly have some Jewish ancestry, and I have Jewish friends. But the creation of the State Of Israel was a crime against humanity. What it did was elevate the rights of desperate asylum seekers over the indigenous population, on the very dubious grounds that "God" gave that land to the distant ancestors of the refugees. This of course was taught in Sunday Schools and RE lessons to generations. Many, perhaps most in the Western world believe this without thinking.

    What exists in Palestine now is a de-facto partial apartheid, maintained, and only maintainable by force. The philosophy is, and has always been equivalent to "lebensraum". Every new West-Bank settlement is an act of war.

    "Atrocity has no excuses, no mitigating argument. Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity. It is self-perpetuating upon itself — a barbarous form of incest. Whoever commits atrocity also commits those future atrocities thus bred. "
    — Frank Herbert

  • Comment number 28.

    @25 "Could these threads be a sort of "cold sink" whereby our frustrations are dissipated and deflected by futile moaning,but to absolutely no effect?"

    Not "no effect", but slow effect. My own world-view has undergone changes since joining the blogosphere, and we each have a social circle which we affect. (So long as we don't over preach and lose our friends ;-D)

  • Comment number 29.

    @27 Sasha.

    Absolutely brilliant and brave post.

    When I was young and an enthusiastic socialist I met quite a few Jewish secular socialists and for a long time Israel showed some potential for becoming a social democracy under good people like Golda Meir.

    But Wall Street and London and the wealthy Jewish aristocracy have turned it into the sort of place that gives a state funeral to Sir Robert Maxwell and persecutes Palestinians in the bizarre belief they are righting the wrong that caused their persecution for centuries.

  • Comment number 30.

    I don't usually join in the debates on this blog between the regulars, but I feel that in this instance I should stand up to be counted, and say how very strongly I agree with 22 (Richard Bunning), 27 (Sasha Clarkson) and 29 (Proletarian). The passionate sympathy we felt for the Jewish people after the World War Two atrocities were revealed has led, finally and tragically, to this ghastly mess. But the seeds were there at the start: I remember the horror we felt when the two British sergeants were kidnapped and hanged, and the blowing up of the King David hotel, and the Deir Yassin massacre. The state of Israel was born bathed in the blood of others.

  • Comment number 31.

    I paraphrase Proletarian

    Some fantastic posts above.

  • Comment number 32.

    For a very long time, Israel was the only State in the Middle East that approximated to a democracy.

    Now, with the emergence of the Arab Spring, the game is changing and as one of the Israeli leaders recently, somewhat ruefully, stated - 'I suppose we'll have to be friends with them now'.

    Which is a way of stating that democracies do not usually wage war on each other.

  • Comment number 33.

    Dear Proletarian et al,

    no I don't dump 'n run - I do read all the posts, but because I find IMHO NN can often trivialise complex issues, I try and broaden/deepen the debate around the programme and challenge the causal models implicit in the way the debate is framed by the producers.

    There is a contradiction in public service television journalism, in that "balanced, objective & impartial" infers that it is possible to be completely neutral in discussing an issue or event, yet the selection of a topic, the way it is covered, the questions asked and even the language used to debate it are choices - and those choices skew the coverage which in turn means it cannot really be "balanced, objective & impartial" in any absolute sense - indeed in many instances the approach taken can result in the very opposite whilst those responsible for the programme can still argue that within the bounds that they have set themselves in framing the debate they have been scrupulously fair in carrying it out - yet by ignoring major factors, the model they create in the mind of the viewer about what really happened bears little or no resemblance to the reality.

    To coin a phrase:

    "wherever you stand, you stand somewhere, it's the people who claim to be able to defy gravity we need to worry about."

    Last night's programme came at the legacy of 9/11 by re-examining the attitudes and perceptions of those in power in the USA at the time - the classic retrospective method so loved by journalists because it avoids the need to provide any sort of modelling of their own to put to the test of the factors involved leading up to the events being covered and allows the comments of those retrospecting to drive the debate.

    As you may have seen from my previous post, I think the NeoCon Right were entirely to blame for creating the pre-conditions necessary for 9/11 and that their religious, economic and political dogma is the root cause of so many conflicts and suffering that this should be the core of any debate around events that flow from it, be it the credit crisis, 9/11 or the future of the Middle East.

    I would say that the media is still in thrawl to the Washington Concensus even after the collapse and bail out of the financial system and fundamental criticism from the likes of Charles Moore of the manifest failiure of liberal, globalised capitalism, yet with a few laudible exceptions, virtually all coverage still clings to the legitimacy of rightwing ideology and policies, decrying the role of the state in society and%2

  • Comment number 34.


    I would say that the media is still in thrawl to the Washington Concensus even after the collapse and bail out of the financial system and fundamental criticism from the likes of Charles Moore of the manifest failiure of liberal, globalised capitalism, yet with a few laudible exceptions, virtually all coverage still clings to the legitimacy of rightwing ideology and policies, decrying the role of the state in society and lauding the free market as the only engine of social and economic progress - and the legitimacy of the use of force by the West to promote it.

    For example, I find Max Keiser on Russia Today and Press TV to be a breath of fresh air simply because he adopts a reference frame which is in flat opposition to that of virtually all other coverage, flatly accusing the western financial system of blantant fraud and theft, aided and abetted by their friends in government.

    I challenge NN to invite Max to debate the economic crisis with mainstream politicians and watch the sparks fly. Keiser's accusations have real substance and raise fundamental questions about the future of the global economy which are simply being ignored by the mainstream media.

  • Comment number 35.

    For anyone sick of the stony face and harsh voice of Netenyahu and his ilk, the antidote is the late Leo Rosten, the Anglophile New York Jewish humourist.

    His jokes have been making me laugh for 40 years.

    "Two Jewish mamas are in the market, one says: "So, Mrs. Bernstein, how's your son?''

    ''Don't ask! Not so good. He's seeing a psychiatrist. He has an Oedipus complex.''

    ''Oedipus complex? Oedipus-schmoedipus! What does it matter so long as he's a good boy and loves his mother!''

    Rosten's book "The Joys Of Yiddish" is a testament to his love of his native tongue, AND what he calls "the great flowing river of English".

    Two of his quotes are probably very relevant to the current thread:

    "Truth is stranger than fiction; fiction has to make sense."

    "We see things as we are, not as they are."

  • Comment number 36.

    Returning to the theme - so-called mainstream political parties in England.

    This Englishman accepts that they are reaching out and trying to connect with the electorate in England but all three, Cons, Lib and Lab believe in political Britain and are, in my opinion, reaching out to try and connect with something that no longer exists as a significant majority in our England - the 'British'.

    Defense and Foreign policy are really the only two mainstream themes that I can think of which are still the exclusive preserve of the UK Government at Westminster.

    Everything else has been devolved to Scottish and Welsh Governments and good for them. We English simply need to enjoy the same rights via our own Government of England.

    Listen to the news carefully and you'll soon realise that when Cameron or virtually any of the other UK Ministers speak about health or education or planning etc, they are actually referring to England or possibly England and Wales, although this is often not made clear in the 'national' News items.

    It happens so often that Alex Salmond, the effective Prime Minister of Scotland, was quite right to complain that the recent riots were being characterised in the media as 'UK' riots and Salmond insisted that they correctly label them as riots in England.

    One day the English will regain their political identity, hopefully soon.

  • Comment number 37.

    @32 JC "For a very long time, Israel was the only State in the Middle East that approximated to a democracy."

    It could only to function as a democracy because of rigged boundaries and partial ethnic cleansing. Without this, there would not have been a Jewish majority in the original Jewish state. For example, Jaffa used to be a Palestinian city.

  • Comment number 38.


    Humour is invaluable in bringing us back from the brink.

    Some things however can not be laughed about but need a 'Henry V' type response.

    Other things can be laughed about and bring about a degree of illumination of the bigger picture in the process.

    Along such lines.

    I found out today that, amongst gold traders, the historic low Gold price of the late 90's is now routinely referred to in 'gold trader talk' as.....

    'the Brown bottom'

    No doubt soon to be immortalised in an explanatory footnote on every gold price graph on every future edition of economics textbooks for students of that subject to giggle over.

  • Comment number 39.

    @37 I strongly object to this referral!! The facts are well documented!

    Note the use of British Army uniform by Irgun!

  • Comment number 40.

    richard bunning @ 34

    That you for the Max Keiser on Russia Today and Press TV reference, which you say is to be a breath of fresh air ...

    It is always useful to find new sources with different perspectives.

    However, whatever the manifold faults of the Western liberal economic model, I cannot help but feel deep sympathy for the young Moscow coffee shop owner who tells us he is selling up and moving to Berlin because he is fed up with being 'shaken down' by the police and sundry Government/City officials, which means his business struggles to survive.

    We can learn a lot from Russia about how to survive and win a war against a savage foe (Nazi Germany) but I would humbly suggest, not a lot else in the intervening decades since then because, despite the brilliance of the Russian people, their political system still needs fundamental reforms, particularly to cut down the amount of corruption in the system to manageable levels, as per this country.

  • Comment number 41.

    Seeing the EU President van Rompuy being evasive when questioned by NewsNights's Paul Mason bought forth a deep sigh from this blogger.

    Herman van Rompuy is clearly out of his depth at this rarefied level, it really did need somebody who 'could stop the traffic'.

    If only the EU heads could have put their desperately large egos to one side when choosing the President and gone for the only serious candidate - Tony Blair.

    This is absolutely the moment when the EU needs a strong leader giving a clear direction but it is not forthcoming and I hope that next time the EU Presidential election comes around, they make a better choice.

  • Comment number 42.

    Stuck in the groove.

    Many moons ago, a certain Dr. Beeching at the behest of Transport Minster Ernest Marples, committed a cardinal sin, as all network engineers will know, and drastically reduced the redundant capability of the railway network.

    That would be Ernest Marples of Marples Ridgway - motorway builders.

    Today we read that property developers have donated millions of pounds to the Conservative Party in recent years - and expect nothing in return?

    Same old, same old?

  • Comment number 43.

    recardiantlesley @30 (have I spelt that right?)

    I'm not a defender of Israel by any means but you'll find all countries with their borders are historically covered in blood.

  • Comment number 44.

    The Warkster looked a bit rough whilst interviewing Rumsfeld but looked positvely gorgeous when in the studio. Its amazing what a bit of makeup can do to a woman. Oh and those oversized glasses she wore occasionally...wonderful!

  • Comment number 45.

    Time to get a grip here!
    These blogs read like someone's discovered A level history as was in the seventies, or first year politics at a good university, which I suppose is more evidence of the progressive dumbing down of our society's culture.

    The english are not "famous for our tolerance"; not if you speak to people from Arab, African, Middle Eastern or Asian countries; the english historically are brutal, thuggish louts when drunk and stolid lethargic peasants when sober; read some of the widely available ambassador reports from the sixteenth century onwards for proof.
    Tonight we see yet another exhibition of english self delusion ; the last night of the Proms; Land of Hope and Glory, Rule Britannia- not Anglia, please note - time to give ourselves a shake.

    John Constable suggests Tony Blair would have been a strong leader who would have given clear direction to the EU; by declaring war on Iran, perhaps?

    Finally; would John Tusa or Donald McCormick, who ran a truly informative Newsnight programme, have appeared on "Celebrity Bake/Off"?

    Play backgammon, drink raki, discuss and forget about Newsnight; it's a waste of your time.

  • Comment number 46.

    kashibeyaz @ 45

    When I suggested that the English were famous for their tolerance, that is with respect to people who come to live in England from other, sometimes, less benighted countries and find that to be the case.

    Of course, even the English have limits, so declaring parts of London to be under Sharia Law is totally unacceptable and should not be tolerated.

    It may well be the case that some, possibly quite a few, English people misbehave when abroad on holiday etc, but I never blame them per se, but point the finger squarely at 'British' politicians who over decades have inflicted their misbegotten social engineering on the English people.

    Tony Blair admits that he misunderestimated the scale of the task in Iraq (and Afghanistan) but points out that the situation in both of those countries would now be a lot more stable if the theocratic dictatorship regime in Iran would stop sponsoring terrorism there and also in Syria, Lebanon, Palestine ... need I go on?

    I was thinking that somebody with the outstanding political leadership qualities of Blair would have been perfect for steering the EU ship through the current Euro crisis but as it stands Merkel and Sarkozy will have to do the job together as they declined to put Blair in place, and what a poor job they, especially Merkel, are/is doing.

    Merkel has been a massive disappointment to this blogger, in terms of global leadership. Maybe the historical skeletons are too much of an inhibitor.

  • Comment number 47.

    once again a very average NN, and I love the programme but do we want to wallow in 9/11 and all it's grim aftermath. 17 days after the attack Bush could not contain himself any longer and off he went, toys out of the pram and bombed Afghanistan even if 19 of the attackers were Saudi nationals and then the ugly spectacle of an unholy alliance with Blair and the illegal attack on Iraq and all the ugly aftermath with no provision for the civilian population even though both promised that 'they would stay the course' what piffle and now with just under a million lives lost we are supposed to go all sentimental and feel grief and sorrow for all the 3000 who died, well, I am genuinely sorry for those victims but when you consider the massive mistakes made by all those leaders who have made the situation a thousand times worse whilst they ride off into the sunset...Blair with his massive twenty million pound nestegg and Bush with his golf swing, we really are lions led by donkeys....

  • Comment number 48.

    It might be appropriate to remember the other September 11th, and the fate of Salvador Allende and his followers after the military coup of 11th September 1973.

    For example, remember the popular singer, Victor Jara, murdered with many others in Santiago football stadium (now renamed Estadio Víctor Jara) on September 16th 1973.

    In South America, they sometimes refer to "Tio Caiman" (Uncle Crocodile) instead of "Uncle Sam".

    Certainly, looking at Rumsfeld's smile last night, I was reminded of the title of Sebastián Salazar Bondy's play "El Beso Del Caimán" (The Kiss Of The Crocodile").

  • Comment number 49.

    stevie @ 47

    You assert that we really are lions led by donkeys, which I think was a phrase that originally referred to lions (British soldiers) of the WW1 being led by donkeys (their Generals).

    However, if you consider the political situation of the English people, in abstract terms, we English do not even have a Government exclusive to our own country.

    Therefore, it could be argued that we are politically apathetic English donkeys led by well, not exactly lions - which in a way is even worse.

  • Comment number 50.

    Sasha Clarkson @ 48

    It is all relative.

    Don Rumsfeld maybe the personification of "Tio Caiman" (Uncle Crocodile) but I'll take him any day compared the 'Old Crocodile' - aka Robert Mugabwe.

    Rumsfeld may, inadvertently through a lack of post-war planning, done a lot of damage to post-Saddam Iraq but only the most blinkered could not separate that from what the old crocodile Mugabwe has done to his country.

    Incidentally, this is where Kirsty Wark singularly failed to earn her enormous salary, by not pressing Rumsfeld on post-war Iraq.

  • Comment number 51.

    Keiser is an American - he just happens to be on RT - BTW he's also on Press TV, which is Iranian... and contributes to the Huffington Post, which is US/Uk based.

    I'm no fan of Russian oligarchs or Mr Putin either - nor am I saying Keiser it totally correct, all I'm saying is that his take on the failing finanicial system seems to ring very true to me and yet this perspective is completely censored out of any of the western TV coverage - yes Paul Mason shoots from the hip and makes very telling points, but only Keiser really hits home with his analysis, as do some others.

    Try this from the Huffington Post:

    "Fraud as a business model"

    Here's the intro:

    "There were many factors that contributed to our recent financial bubble: deregulation, cheap money from the Fed, failure to enforce remaining regulations, crony capitalism, hubris, speculation, leverage, and fraud among other problems. While fraud wasn't the only issue, it was and is a significant contributor to the credit bubble. Restraining fraud is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a sound financial system. Congressional investigations in recent years have put ample evidence of fraud in the public domain. "

    (C) Huffington Post.

    If you follow this analysis to its logical conclusion, you end up where Kaiser takes us - broadly his view is that deregulated financial markets operated criminal fraud as their busines model, they have lost all their assets but expect taxpayers to bail them out and are being allowed to get away with it because they have bought the politicians who are responsible for the legal system.

    You would think that he would disappear under a snowstorm of writs for saying things like this from the banks, hedgies etc he names, but no - they don't seem to try and shut him up - why?

    I note a number of British banks have recently been served with notices by the US authorities investigating various "issues" around the alleged fraudulent trading in things like securitised mortgages- yet there is virtually no coverage of this despite the fact that the potential level of punishment would bankrupt most of them and the allegatiohns made by the US government involve serious criminal offences.

  • Comment number 52.

    @45 Kashi,so good to be reminded of the petty snobbery and arrogance of our imported chums!

    Naturally it would be "racist" if I responded in a similar sneering vein.So I can`t.

    But I do remember my first ( of so many!) clear reason for not naively "celebrating" every imported "culture" which the BBC would have me embrace as the equal of my own.

    It was in Bristol one night in the late 60`s when a smart looking young officer in the Pakistan navy asked me to direct him to an address in Clifton,and I called out to the bus conductor for assistance.When I turned to relay the information the horrified Pakistani stuttered " Surely you don`t SPEAK to PEOPLE LIKE THAT" with a look of utter disgust on his face.

  • Comment number 53.

    So putting aside the specific advantages and disadvantages of Max Keiser`s approach to economics, why are NN viewers unlikely to see him in an hour-long financial meltdown head to head with Paul Mason or Stephanie?

  • Comment number 54.

    @49 John,while I subscribe to your general drift about freeing English people to govern themselves,I have to take issue with your contention that we are "apathetic donkeys" when we have been systematically brainwashed and bullied into our present powerless virtual disenfranchisement for most of last century.

    We have never had freedom to lose.

    I agree that it`s a scandalous situation that no red blooded people would countenance for long,but have you ever noticed the Bertie Woosters of Westminster, or the Roland Ratists at the BBC, giving an ounce of encouragement to the idea of English independence?

    Naturally they actively encourage Irish republicanism and quietly tolerate Zionism, because their masters in the USA insist on it.

  • Comment number 55.

    @50 John "Rumsfeld may, inadvertently through a lack of post-war planning....."

    Tens of thousands of people died because he couldn't be bothered to inform himself about the history and geopolitical complexities of the country he was invading, or, even worse, because he thought they didn't matter.

    One day's reading should have opened his eyes to the problems. There is plenty of material availble in English. For example, the respected* English soldier and scholar Sir John Bagot Glubb (Glubb Pasha) wrote both about the history of the area, and also his own role in the early days of the two Hashemite kingdoms after their creation ant the end of WWI . He also contributed a number of articles to Encyclopaedia Britannica on the history of Islam and the Arabs.

    As for the rather irrelevant comparison between Rumsfeld and Mugabe - I would hope and expect that an educated and privileged US citizen would be capable of better behaviour than a guerilla leader brutalised by oppression and war!

    *Although King Hussein sacked Glubb as head of the Arab Legion, he also remained a personal friend and gave the eulogy at Glubb's memorial service in Westminster Abbey.

  • Comment number 56.

    @55 Sasha. my guess is that Mugabe is better educated than Rumsfeld and infinitely better informed about the world outside the US borders, than Rumsfeld and Bush, and possibly even their much wiser Israeli bosses!

  • Comment number 57.

    @56 Interesting. I looked up "ebagum" in Wikipedia, and this is what I found.

    Another dysfunctional leader educated by priests. The best 20th century example is Stalin:

  • Comment number 58.

  • Comment number 59.


    I am beyond amazement, John Constable, that anyone wants a delusional zealot in ANY position of power and influence. If you REALLY cannot FEEL the man, try this link.


    This is the Age of Perversity.

  • Comment number 60.


    If you missed Blair on the ropes - a fine performance by Humphreys (Today prog 19/9) it is worth sparing half an hour. Keep in mind Blair of Jerusalem's Manichean view of THE LAST BATTLE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL. 'Watch' his demons dance!

  • Comment number 61.


    Hi Sasha. Bush is condemned out of his own mouth, on video (repeatedly) regarding foreknowledge of the plane strikes. Do you hold the view Rumsfeld was not in his confidence - not in the know?

    I am persuaded that Mugabe is not the only one holding human life cheap.

  • Comment number 62.

    @58 I urge people to look at the brossen99 link: Tony Farrel is clearly a decent and honest man.

    I don't KNOW what the truth is, but the second video reports at least one more convenient death. I was starting to wonder again about the death of Robin Cook. And lo and behold, other people have been wondering for years.

  • Comment number 63.

    @60 Listened to the interview. I wish Humphrys had interviewed Rumsfeld - but even Humphrys was afraid to mention Israel.

    Blair is absolutely delusional. Al Qaeda has never been more than a sideshow in Iraq, and was only there at all because of the power vacuum he helped create. Blair said that Iran and Iraq were totally different, but actually they aren't. The majority Shiites of Iraq and Iran have very longstanding connections. And Blair was in total denial about perceived imperialism. Considering that he is a UN mid-east envoy, his apparent ignorance of any historic causes of the current situation is appalling.

    One of these causes so far as Iran is concerned is the legacy of the Anglo-Iranian Oil corporation, or BP as it became.

    In fact, although the Americans have taken over as masters, the British empire has had a role in creating or interfering with nearly all of the states where Blair is envoy: Palestine/Israel, Iraq, Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, The Gulf States, Kuwait, Egypt, Sudan. It's not just that "they don't like us because we're free", or any similar piffle. You won't "defeat the ideology" without removing and atoning for the injustice.

  • Comment number 64.

    Sasha,perhaps we see men of status as powerful and in touch with events,when in truth we do that through through the crystal clear glass of hindsight.

    It`s my guess that if we were there with them as events unfolded they (and we) would resemble those chaps who spin plates on sticks in ever greater numbers then race about trying to keep them all spinning at the same time.Remember the little poem "Drowning not Waving"?

    We feel ambivalent towards Blairs and Rumsfelds.

    Sometimes seeking the protection and security they provide in times of social crisis (which they may manufacture),then boldly despising and knowing better than them as the fear disperses and the threat reduces.

    Of course terrorists seem so harmless once they are captured and free of the intense hostility their grievances imparted,but in the heat of battle they would send out children wrapped in explosives to die for their "cause" and delude themselves with talk of life after death and glory for assassins who murder anyone they define as "infidels".

    This is savagery born of desperation,and we meet it with our own savagery and deceit and our own wish to feel superior and wiser and more civilised and humane than our leaders and our enemies.

    Would we have been any wiser than Blair,faced with the events and challenges of his life?Perhaps,but more likely not.Psychopathy is probably a survival technique we draw on in times of crisis.We "lie" and later rationalise something we feel impelled to do in the heat of battle.

    Only deeply needy driven men achieve "power" in society anyway. They are not like most of us anyway,but power adds that extra ruthlessness and dishonesty we later despise in them.

    Yet we ordinary chaps strike a subconscious deal with them, which we never quite understand, in our conscious thinking, when later we bathe in the security and wisdom which hindsight provides to us when "the crisis" is over.

    They can have their fifteen minutes of power and fame if we can feel secure and safe in times of social crisis.Their neediness (that Barrie correctly senses) drives them to accept the age old pact between leaders and led.

    We get to give the thumbs up or down on them when the threat is over, but for those glorious fifteen minutes they bask in the illusions and delusions of power and control and entertain the remote possibility that they will become a national treasure and hero.(When the chances are their "legacy" will be different once we deluded chaps get our hands back on the reins of society.)

    It`s we who make society dangerous and insecure. We want to "grow" our population and prosperity but never want to take responsibility when our numbers rise to the point where others starve and live in wretched hopelessness.

    We want luxury and prosperity and advantages for our children without facing the consequences of that for others who live in fear and desperation.

    Our freedom from the threat of "terror" is really a collective refusal to face up to our own greed and determination to survive while others never get the chance to do so.

    But until we stop deluding ourselves and using those needy leaders to carry our cans for us my guess is that we will not progress into a more enlightened phase.

    And as we globalise power and politics and economics the chance of doing so becomes both more remote in scale yet tantalisingly more possible as a common culture and the internet bring our minds and aspirations closer together.

  • Comment number 65.


    My spell-checker takes a perverse delight in changing 'Britishness' to 'Brutishness' - it coyly refrains from adding: "Nuff sed".

    Since I reluctantly woke, this morning, I have been following the Radio 4 output from NYC - dedicated to this anniversary of 9/11 'Shock and Awe'.

    But whereas 9/11 was a SUDDEN unexpected (by the little folk) SHOCK, the disgraceful, conniving silence of the BBC (reaching a crescendo today) regarding ‘The American State Lie’, is a SLOW TORTURE to all aspiring 'GOOD MEN', WHO KNOW THAT REASON IS BEING BRUTALISED.

    Will this be a day of infamy, to eclipse even the crass treatment of the death of Dr David Kelly and - YES INDEED (#62) Robin Cook?

    BBC: if you are determined that all your 'good men' should DO NOTHING, regarding the ever-increasing weight of 9/11 REALITY, we shall just have to put you where you belong.

    “You are either with US or the UNREASONISTS.


  • Comment number 66.

    @65 I wish a lot of "good men" WOULD do "nothing" Barrie,and that it`s not a battle between reason and unreason at all.

    The powerful define what is reasonable to suit their often quite unreasoning purposes. Spare me from America`s Batman complex and the counter-intuitive twaddle in the New Testament please.

  • Comment number 67.

    Google the phrase "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" and read the Wikipedia entry about St Bernard of Clairvaux`s thinking,and more recent research into the psychology behind the idea.

  • Comment number 68.


    Might 'Good Men' be able to see that same road as the road FROM Hell?

    'Good intention' is intrinsically OK - LACK OF RESOLVE might be the problem for those 'going the wrong way'.

  • Comment number 69.

    @64 "We feel ambivalent towards Blairs and Rumsfelds."

    You might feel ambivalent - I don't! :-D

    As an EX member of the Labour Party, who didn't vote for Blair, and watched his premiership first with concern, and then with contempt, I have no ambivalence at all towards Blair. On the one hand, he is intellectually very lazy, for example clearly not having done his homework on the mid-east as either PM or envoy. On the other hand, he goes through severe mental contortions, trying to persuade himself that the real world fits the prejudices he would like to have. His face and voice now tell the story of his battle against his own demons: he has fused with the picture in the attic. It was always clear to me that the poor sap wanted to be loved as well as have power. If that was ever an option, it's too late now:

    " The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
    Moves on: not all your Piety nor Wit
    Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
    Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."

    -- Omar Khayyam

    On the other hand, from what I can see, Rumsfeld has never seemed to be troubled in any way by the remnants of a conscience, or any regard for truth: just for what he can get away with. I look at him and think "be very afraid!"

  • Comment number 70.

    I will meet you at the cross-roads and point you in the right direction Barrie!.Perhaps the rest of us unreasoning lesser mortals can have a break from your good works while you crusade elsewhere?

    Of course lack of motivation can be a problem. But it`s my contention that all the resolve in the world is no substitute for establishing a sensible agreed common direction before setting off.

    Several billion foreign-born people seem free to enter Britain harbouring all sorts of strange intentions and ideas about what is "good",for example.

    I want the BBC to explain why these people receive so much vigorous support in holding on to their wierd ideas in the name of multiculturalism, while any questioning of this idea is classified as my unreasoning prejudice against the whole barmy project and of my rabid racism and xenophobia!

    No Beeb, I am just a thinking secular rational member of modern British society who wants to live in civilisation as I wish it to be organised.I don`t want to live among people who despise my culture and behave in prehistoric ways at my expense!

    Pick the "good" bones out of that Barrie,and please suggest what I should "resolve" to do if I am to avoid the accusation that I am doing "nothing"!

  • Comment number 71.

    This country is off it's ruddy trolley

    The original people aren't but the ruddy stupid government is

  • Comment number 72.

    #71 lizzy

    More consumers lizzy, more consumers!

    It's linked to these stories as well because the only constraint on more and more immigrants/consumers is housing for them.

    Conservatives given millions by property developers

    Housing developers store up land ahead of planning reforms

    It's also why councils have been instructed to let through all planning applications to turn perfectly good family homes into flats, even in areas where this practice is totally inappropriate i.e. lac of infrastructure parking etc etc.

    The elites are not 'off their trolly'. On the contrary, it all makes perfect sense where profits are concerned.

  • Comment number 73.


    Let`s assume as a working hypothesis that our politicians are not off their luxury all-expenses-paid "trolleys" but doing what politicians do in every society if they know what`s good for them.

    By which I mean that they are serving the most powerful and influential interests in our society.And they better jolly well remember who is boss,and be sure it`s NOT us,the deluded beleaguered and comprehensively betrayed "electorate" of Britain.

    As long ago as the aftermath of the Black Death the contemporary aristocracy realised that in order to keep hold of power they must flood society with enough immigrants to keep proletarians, like me, fearful of losing their livelihoods.

    The added twist (that came with the creation of our "democracy") was creating and tolerating a Labour Party filled with the sort of internationalists who would sneer at the Duffyist idea of British jobs for British workers.

    Place joke-socialist "Labour" in a virtual one-party Westminster Parliament (completely controlled by neo-liberal capitalists in the USA and Brussels) and you have the perfect capitalist dictatorship in which we are disempowered virtual hostages.

    Gosh! I almost forgot the BBC,and its little habit of seeing things the uber-liberal free market multicultural capitalist CIA/USA way!

    We could never accuse the BBC of promoting real freedom and democracy for us Duffyist bigoted proles!

  • Comment number 74.


    I admit I cast a small Nasturtium at your apparent acceptance of the adage.

    Thereafter, I think we might have some semantic differences.

    I apologise for annexing your post to my requirements.

  • Comment number 75.


    Might Prof Winston's candour be a symptom that the ENGLISH SPRING is taking hold? Are we about to riot, as only the English can, by declaring a whole lot of rubbish (like PC and ghetto towns) NOT CRICKET?

    Some bombastic, oddly spoken, 'Briton' with 'alternative affiliations', was shouting his demands all over 'Sunday Live'. Not Cricket - send the bounder packing.

  • Comment number 76.

    British Banks going downwards from tomorrow....

    Roll on Monday......

  • Comment number 77.


    Far from it Barrie. You are Wat Tyler to the BBC aristocracy!

    I am a mere Jack Straw to your Wat Tyler,and men will speak of your valour and persistent fortitude long after they have forgotten me.

  • Comment number 78.

    Ten years after 9/11, the conspiracy theorist nutjobs are still telling lies

    Damian Thompson

    He has written two books about apocalyptic belief and one about counterknowledge, "misinformation packaged to look like fact".

    If it wasn't so surreal, it would be funny!

  • Comment number 79.


    And who is Charlie Sheen? A friend of Mr Muscle?

    Well posted MuseV.

    How ironic that the BBC avoids direct enquiry into DEMOLITION of the three towers, yet they are interviewing DRAMATIC SURVIVORS (for their edgy value) AND FAILING TO REALISE THE EYE WITNESS EVIDENCE OF DEMOLITION, THAT IS BEING BROADCAST.

    More on this story later.

    Oh the (MOLTEN) irony!

    And speaking of irony: a clean cut young lad, speaking at the Groundless Zero Gathering (Bush and Obama) said he intends a career in FORENSIC SCIENCE.

    Nuff sed

  • Comment number 80.

    museV: those conspiracy 'nutjobs' -and of which there are many -find the official version and numourous enquires a bit hard to believe. For the record, I used to call those conspiracy theorists nutjobs as well.

    I also had the same opinion about people who didn't believe in man made global warming.

  • Comment number 81.

    BBC Reported Building 7 Collapse 20 Minutes Before It Fell. Classic media management gone a bit ahead of its time. Well done BBC for been unwitting (I hope unwitting) agents of a rather nasty plan getting executed before our eyes on Sept 11 2001.

    That in of it self proves no conspiracy. Its when you gather all the other material ...the penny drops..we've been lied to. Conclusion: it was an inside job.

    First they ignore....

  • Comment number 82.

    Maybe it would be simpler if we thought of Britain as a post-democratic society where Westminster and the City of London and the BBC are administering us and governing us as a colony rather than reflecting our "public opinions"?

    What I perceive going on around me is that "the City" and Westminster and the Media are occupying institutions designed now to run for the benefit of a new global aristocracy based in the financial markets without any loyalty to Britain or honest reference to public opinion at all.

    It`s a sort of Soft Post-1984 Society in which our wishes are just a rather irritating diversion from the exercise of de facto power.

  • Comment number 83.


    (1) Nice folk, who believe we live in a democracy under the rule of law, and that schooling is good for children. They also think Tony Blair was a World Statesman (rather than a very naughty boy).

    (2) Those who easily default to a negative state of mind, who mistrust authority and always expect the worst, but are not actually delusional.

    (3) Those who are convinced a global elite ALREADY runs the world, and who are convinced they have been abducted (for anal probing) at least once. (Ignore the last point.)

  • Comment number 84.


    I haven't got a link yet - see #79. Reality is out there. ('Truth' is SO 2001!)

    When you have eliminated the impossible . . .

    The BBC, have made things easy. By NEVER MENTIONING damning investigations of 9/11 skulduggery (except with a heavy overlay of disinformation and smear) we can be pretty sure that THE STUFF BBC WON'T TOUCH is the place to look for nuggets of reality.

    As Monty Python would say: “OOOH – WHAT A GIVE-AWAY!”

  • Comment number 85.


    There are moments of weakness Barrie,when I wish I could "ignore your last point", if only I didn`t have the sneaking feeling that it`s possibly a good point,but rather well camouflaged as something just a little too patronising and condescending for my taste?

    Why not let other people form their own views without bullying anyone who fails to see things your way Barrie. My Dad died long ago and I manage quite well without him.

  • Comment number 86.

    Mirror mirror on the wall

    prol @85:
    Barrie gives his opinions. He bullys no one.

    Its possible prol to display all that one dislikes. They are often termed with these two words: Having issues.

  • Comment number 87.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 88.

    The House Rule? No one gets to argue back when Big Barrie`s in the censor`s chair?
    I had wondered!If it mattered I would be bothered,but the Big Brother Corporation was never going to welcome me with open arms.It`s always been a disadvantage,thinking for myself.

  • Comment number 89.


    Go here.

    Start listening from 1hr 5 mins in.

    I suggest: Harry Waizer enters the lift that serves the 104th floor (his office is there) from the 'Sky Lobby' that is floor 78.

    The destructive event termed 'a plane' erupts below him, between floors 92 and 98(nominal) freeing his lift from proper controlled ascent (perhaps cutting the counter-weight cables?)

    While the spectacular fireball is still manifesting, his 'plummeting' lift passes through it, such that the car is instantly filled with fire. The lift is dropping fast, so PASSES THROUGH the fireball and THE FIRE “GOES OUT” (i.e. is left higher up).

    While the fireball is still mesmerising, to outside onlookers, some major (thermitic?) charges are set off to sever core columns, which are SITUATED CLOSE TO THE LIFT SHAFTS, and one of these blasts,i18n%3Dtrue&cp=9&gs_id=s&xhr=t&q=thermite+reaction&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1067&bih=460&wrapid=tljp1315760722409016&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi

    penetrates a lift-door gap, hitting Harry Waizer full in the face. (Would the surgeons have looked for Iron microspheres in his burns, when tending him?)

    The automatic braking halts the lift at Sky Lobby (floor 78) and Harry and a lady occupant, also burned, negotiate a slight discrepancy of level - the doors, still powered, having opened automatically - and head for the stairs.

    You may say an Oxygen bottle in the 'plane' caused the fireball. I say someone should interview the medics who tended Mr Waizer's burns.

    Don't forget the firefighters discussing the things they saw and heard:

  • Comment number 90.

    #79 barrie

    Hear, hear!

    But I keep thinking about what Prole wrote @ #34 from Thursday's blog...

    "The real message of 9/11 lies not in "who dun it" but in what it says about our dreadful piratical parasitical so-called civilisation.

    How much do you believe in the virtue of a society whose dreadful image is reflected in the "business" of Parliament or "the news" as brought to you by the MSM or even in the "current affairs" fed to you by Question Time or NN?"

    I think those two sentances represent the true epitaph to 9/11 the West's complete moral decay.

  • Comment number 91.


    My eternal theme MuseV - THE AGE OF PERVERSITY.

    But 'Whodunit' might just have shot himself in the foot by 'Doing a Hollywood number' on 9/11. Whodunit has laid himself open to a 'Columbo'!

    Eh - one more thing Sir . . .

    I suspect, even as I type, Columbo has found that some tissue was KEPT from Mr Waitzer's face AS IT LOOKED ODD. (Or some other inconvenient reality.) Whodunit made sure the debris of Groundless Zero was REMOVED POST HASTE, to hide the crime, but he did not reckon with a small tissue sample, nestling in a hospital freezer. . .

    The sequel: 'Colombo's Greatest Case', Could lead him to some very fine doors, in some very 'elevated' places that look WHITER THAN WHITE; lead him to the evil Whodunit himself (cat or no cat). And being a movie, the sleeping sheeples WILL BELIEVE AND REACT!

    When the movie is shown here, it will galvanise the English Spring - and we are on our way.

  • Comment number 92.


    They sent him to Groundless Zero, but he just can't do vacuous drivel.

    Why didn't they send Citizen Smith - with his broom?

  • Comment number 93.

  • Comment number 94.

    Picked this up elsewhere, thought it was agood summary response.

    So, conspiracy guys are nuts, and the folk who believe a plane was able to hit the most protected building in the world on the side that was empty after renovation, after flying around in the most protected airspace by an amateur who failed his cesna license whilst avoiding all security cameras and making all remnants of the plane disappear into a tiny hole are sane?

  • Comment number 95.

  • Comment number 96.

    #95 lizzy

    Praise to lizzy for finding this link...but it has to be one of the saddest links I have ever read on this website.

    The Bankstas and corporate fascists are reaping their revenge on the proles for having dared to question their authority.

    I had heard of the GATS mode 4 discussions before on the BBC website blogs (hat tip to Linda Kaucher and Carol Wilcox from Paul Mason's blog), but did not know how advanced they actually were. They truly are lone voices in the wilderness.

    It's getting to the point at which it is probably best to leave this country (as Jericoa has mused) and let it just fester.

    But where to go?

  • Comment number 97.

    @86 I agree. Barrie does not bully. He may passionately disagree, but he is not the censoring kind either. Barrie's style is that he would prefer people to see what he's disagreed with, so as better to highlight perceived error.

  • Comment number 98.


    A glorious piece if incisive demolition Jericoa. Many thanks for repost.

  • Comment number 99.


    Westminster has yielded to the EU adventure, not in our name, but in the name of PERVERSITY.

    I have reported the utter CONTEMPT that I am held in by my MP; multiply that by 600-odd and add the BOGOF factor of the Lords, and the total contempt for indigenous Britons, coming from Westminster, is immeasurable.

    This explains the freedom of the top echelons to swan off round the world, shelling out money and bombs - no expense spared - and dictating HOW TO RUN AN EXEMPLARY DE-MOCK-CRASS-Y.

    Westminster is an abscess on the heart of England. It oozes PERVERSITY. Until it is excised and cauterised, we shall just continue to GET OURSELVES ANOTHER BUNCH.

    Think ENGLISH SPRING! Let us turn decades of discontent into GLORIOUS SUMMER, the moment the portents say GO. e.g. The Chilcot Report (if not nobbled); the collapse of the American State Lie of 9/11; or a bloody great hole opening up and SWALLOWING THE WESTMINSTER CITADEL.

    May I live to see it.

  • Comment number 100.


    Can anyone throw light onthe final three subtitles here? Smoking gun - more like a melted cannon.


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