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Tuesday 9 August 2011

Sarah McDermott | 11:23 UK time, Tuesday, 9 August 2011

Some 16,000 officers are policing London's streets after three days of violence, with rioters warned they will feel the "full force of the law".

Tonight Liz Mackean we'll be asking who the kids are that are perpetrating the trouble, and try find out what their motives are.

Then Iranian rapper Reveal co-founder of hip-hop group Poisonous Poets, Lyn Costello from Mothers Against Murder and Aggression, and media exec Kelvin Mackenzie, will join us to debate what we should do with the rioters.

Iain Watson will be examining if a malaise in the police force and a lack of leadership have contributed to the unrest.

And David Grossman will be considering if the Prime Minister - who returned to Britain this morning after cutting his summer break short - has completely misjudged the situation.

Join us at 2230 on BBC Two.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 2.

    Liz - it doesn't matter what they THINK their motives are. The problem we have is that a significant minority of human beings in some our our cities have become feral, at least to some degree. They are in our midst, but at best partly members of our society. There is no quick solution to this which most people would find acceptable and which would not involve considerable collateral damage.

    We have to address a medium to long term problem: what do we want our society to be like, and how do we get there? The short term problem is how we paper over the cracks. Those who would answer these questions must not be allowed to indulge in wishful thinking of either the liberal or conservative kind. Actions founded upon knee jerk reactions tend to have unintended consequences.

    However, we must not only solve the problem of the feral poor, we must solve the problem of the feral wealthy: the bankers, the city traders and even members of the government who have contributed to and profited from the damage that their actions and ideas have done to our society. Water cannon cannot deter them!

  • Comment number 3.

    nice to know the great and the good have returned from holiday, but what can they do? Platitudes? Hand wringing? Can they restore EMA? Er, no...half tuition fees, er, probably not....then go back to your beach!

  • Comment number 4.

    CRIMINAL ACTS

    Baroness Warsi (Co Chairman Conservatives) is one of the many Westminster politicians who have seen a copy of the Liar Flyer AND CHOSEN NOT TO ACT.

    Warsi is adamant that criminal acts SHOULD BE PUNISHED.

    I am adamant that failure to take forward the matter of a False Instrument, used in the 2010 General Election, amounts to 'Misconduct in Public Office' - a criminal act.

    Will these Westminster Creatures ever admit that it is THEIR SELF-SERVING DERELICITION that is at the heart of the nation's decline?

    DISMANTLE WESTMINSTER - INSTALL INTEGRITY

  • Comment number 5.

    A FINE CROP (#1 link)

    Odd the way that flyer is cropped Jaunty. Last time I saw anything so odd, it was the totally degraded image of a 7/7 suspect, that might have prevented the bombing, had it not been messed with. Do we know the provenance?

  • Comment number 6.

    "THE FERAL WEALTHY" (#2)

    Nice! Another nugget Sasha.

  • Comment number 7.

  • Comment number 8.

    Right - a few observations.

    The Conservatives talked in the last election about "Broken Britain" - now we have "Smashed, Broke, Burned and Looted Britain" - a pretty conclusive failure across the board, I'd say.

    I do not support, agree with or advocate rioting - all I do is to seek to understand it and what we should DO about it - operationally on the ground, and in terms policy initiatives.

    Operational issues:

    1. Hackney police have now been out for three nights in a row - in the end the Met will buckle under this contact level before the rioters do - time is of the essence and hoping it will calm down and/or the police wil get the upper hand will not work. The operational effectiveness of the police will go down day on day - and in the end it will fail if nothing else happens.

    2. Draughting in police from other areas is Ok, but needs to be tempered with the issues that many from non-urban forces have little or no public order training/experience, are working in areas they won't know and the risk is that their own force area denuded of officers then undergoes rioting too.

    3. In NI there was a riot called White Rock II were a much smaller group of soldiers was attacked by a large group of rioters and only survived without serious casualties because they fired 100s of plastic bullets, so police units need to be big enough to hold their ground - not spread out too thinly to cover large areas, in response to public cries for "a copper on my street corner right now!"

    4. There are not enough police even with 16,000 out tonight to be able to respond to rioters operating in multiple spaced out areas who have excellent communications - they can assemble, loot, burn and vanadlaise, then melt away before a police team can be deployed. The Home Secretary is going to HAVE to switch off public mobile comms in these areas during riot events, or accept the police will always be three steps behind the rioters.

    5. The Army does have a few personnel left who have public order experience from NI - but its losing this experience rapidly through turnover of troops leaving and the Land Army is overstretched as it is - so I'm afraid if the police don't hold their own, no one should think there's a large, available and trained body of troops sitting in barracks waiting to be called out - there isn't.

    6. The recent hammering the police have taken in the media combined with service cuts and the proposal to make 2,000 Met officers redundant is now a VERY serious morale and resource

  • Comment number 9.

  • Comment number 10.

    Continued truncated post:


    6. The recent hammering the police have taken in the media combined with service cuts and the proposal to make 2,000 Met officers redundant is now a VERY serious morale and resource issue. Teresa May is the architect of the manpower cutbacks which MUST BE IMMEDIATELY RECINDED - indeed I think she should consider her position on this, because if these cuts had already happened, we would be in a no-win situation if the riots continued for any time. I'd argue that the local authority cutbacks fall into the same category.

    Policy issues:

    1. The level of pressure that low income, inner city families are under right now with wage cuts/freezes, rising unemployment, big price inflation for food, energy and fuel combined with benefits cuts is the economic backdrop today. These factors lead to relationships breaking down, court orders for non payment of bills, domestic violence and mental illness, etc. To expect this not to manifesto itself in poor parental supervision of the younger family members is naive - face it: the family isn't going to rein in its riotous young men - those calling for it are mostly wasting their breath.

    2. At present nationally 20% of young people are unemployed - in inner city areas this rises above 50%+, many of whom are NEETS - Not In Employment, Education or Training - they are frittering their lives away, have zero prospect of a job, they are permanently skint and so are most other lads around them. For many, their world revolves around music, drugs and crime. We know from pre-Christian Rome through to the present day, any society which condemns large numbers of young men to the scrap heap - today before they have barely left school - is going to pay a price for this - I'm not saying what has happened is justified - I'm not saying the rule of law shouldn't be applied - what I am saying is this situation is untenable and can only get worse the longer it goes on for - we HAVE to connect these lads to society and the economy by making sure they have a stake in it.

    3. The economic crisis is deepening rapidly and the coalition's whole justification for austerity is to enable debt repayment, but as the OBR & IMF pointed out last week, the growth target is going to be missed now, which means the debt WILL GROW, not shrink. The riots are a manifestation of economic and social dislocation - for those whose pension pots have shrunk by up to a QUARTER in recent weeks, this is a disaster. Surely it's time to review the failed economic policy to give some h

  • Comment number 11.

    "MINDLESS THUGS" (#7)

    Were they born without minds? Well - some; drink drugs and alcohol can do that - two of them courtesy of HMG.

    Did their minds fail to form into anything useful after birth? Well - some; a chaotic environment makes for a chaotic mentality.

    Did they just DECIDE to chuck their mind away, as being of little use? Well - some; children can react extremely, to being 'nobody'. Schooling - HMG style - plays a big role here.

    Is running a society that delivers mindlessness a 'CRIMNAL ACT' (you know, like arson and looting are?)

    I want to see a Chilcot-style enquiry into EVERY ASPECT OF WESTMINSTER. With lessons learned such as:

    SPOILPARTYGAMES - INSTALL INTEGRITY

  • Comment number 12.


    "...However, we must not only solve the problem of the feral poor, we must solve the problem of the feral wealthy: the bankers, the city traders and even members of the government who have contributed to and profited from the damage that their actions and ideas have done to our society..."

    The gap has definitely widened in recent decades, with no government having had the right strategy to bridge it. The hi viz high octane lifestyles, be they premiership footballers, xfactor winners, bankers, Russian oligarchs, tv presenters or any other above average pay band recipients we choose to vilify may be in part responsible for elevated unrealistic expectations. Too much choice is not always a good thing unless it comes wrapped in the wisdom to understand the destructive power of envy. And..... modern day world economy and commerce is too complex for most.

    The gap between rights and personal responsibilities has also widened exponentially - now wider than the grand canyon and being prised farther and farther apart at the hands of consecutive overly liberalised governments regardless of the colour rosette or tie they wear.

    I am not sure that any sticking plaster or papering over the cracks will hold water. I might use the regular and regularly ineffective pot hole debacle as an illustration. Some gravel and a ladle full of hot tar will crack asunder once more as soon as it is pressured by a unusual loading, frost or even heavy rain - all of which are becoming more prevalent in good ole blighty.

    Then there is a deep rooted cycle of apathy at best, raw aggression and worse amongst a small but growing segment of society who have no respect for any authority, no personal responsibility or understanding of right and wrong and turn away from all offers of support, determined as they are to cut the ropes on the ladders offered to help them climb out of the pit.

    My chicken/egg question is who do you try and reach first. The 50/60 somethings, in danger of being grandparents to another generation of serial losers; the middle generation (20/30 somethings) who have few qualifications or visible malleable qualities, little ambition, no vision, and scant little hope; or the barely in school yet little dewy eyed darlings - who may need to be removed from the scourge of their families and communities in order to start the fight

  • Comment number 13.

    COMMON UNITY and THE EDUCATION TRAP.

    I wonder what would happen if the media shut down for 48 hours. No pictures of rioting in Peckham, Beckham’s latest tattoo, Royal Wedding, Syrian riots, Polar bears......


    There is so much talk of 'multi-culturalism' as the key. But Community ('Common Unity?) seems in its simplest and arguably most successful form to shirk away from such idealism. Your common ground is most easily found amongst a narrow band of your own kind - tribalism. It has its problems too - boundaries and borders, assets, jealousy and greed. It is about time we (the world) stopped seeing multiculturalism as an ideal – the uneasy truce of relatively peaceful ethnic diversity within certain prescribed limits and under external controls may be the best we can and should hope for.


    To dispel the myth of the full on failure of education in certain boroughs one only has to find one example of a child from a poor background, even generations of, who has been encouraged from the home/community to take what is offered, free at point of delivery for many hours of many weeks for a minimum of 9 formative years and make something of it.

    Most of these successes arise because they took the hand of the person(s) who saw the possibilities in them and offered to help. Most schools, even the failing ones, have a few. The rest were either suspicious of the hand, more likely didn't see it because they were looking the wrong way or bit it off at the wrist because they did not know how to react differently. They saw offers of help as designs to control, rather than to free, which is what powerful education can and should do.


    I happen to think our education system requires similar root and branch reform, starting from not what we have but what we need – another thread.

  • Comment number 14.

    Continued truncated posting:

    3. The economic crisis is deepening rapidly and the coalition's whole justification for austerity is to enable debt repayment, but as the OBR & IMF pointed out last week, the growth target is going to be missed now, which means the debt WILL GROW, not shrink. The riots are a manifestation of economic and social dislocation - for those whose pension pots have shrunk by up to a QUARTER in recent weeks, this is a disaster. Surely it's time to review the failed economic policy to give some hope that things won't go on getting worse? Most of the debt was incurred bailing out the banks - surely we could pledge to use the £100 bn asset in bank shares the UK hold to pay off a large % of this debt over the next 5 years, back off such sharp spending cuts and tax increases, then use the money to create a youth jobs programme, investing in social housing in particular?

    4. The Olympics - this is going to be a very hard pill to swallow but, unless in 3 months' time the economy has improved and the rioting has stopped, the games will have to be called off - we can't leave it to individual teams to decide whether they are safe to come - we as hosts need to decide. The loss of face internationally will be dreadful - and at what point does the collapse in confidence in the entire country outweigh any loss of confidence in our ability to repay out debts?

    David Cameron has got to get it right over the next 48 hours - he is facing the biggest threat to the British way of life since Dunkirk - PRAGMATISM is required, not dogma - can he detach himself from the libertarian fundamentalists and be bog enough to change course? God help us otherwise.


  • Comment number 15.

    it is somewhat pointless asking the rioters why they are "doing it", the majority of them will have learned from an early age to automatically lie to 'authority'. On top of which, they are more than enough media-savvy to know exactly what to say to get the biggest publicity (to be on TV), and what the media feed on is not calm, moderate, well-reasoned arguments, but outrageous statements like "yeah man, there were these like loads of people right, and i reckon i saw a couple of "anarchists" (or "communist agitators" in the 50s) in there too!" etc etc.

    would you ask a 15 year old inner city kid who wants to be on TV saying something outrageous, what is wrong with today's schooling? You *might* get a very cogent and reasoned response, - but you probably wouldn't. Especially when the media are looking for ways to scapegoat the kids instead of looking at deeper social issues., and want inflammatory statements for their own wing-nut knee-jerk readerships.

  • Comment number 16.

    the question is, is Cameron a "Gorbachev", or an "Assad"? And does he STILL think that it is possible for his quisling Govt to push through tax-cuts for kkkorporations and the wealthy, whilst closing down services and welfare cuts for the poorest majority?

  • Comment number 17.

    WARMING TO MY THEME (#11)

    I repeat my call for a 'Chilcot' into Westminster, but taking heed of BYT #12, wonder if it should be made into prime time TV (Rantzen and Springer advising).
    Such a show might catch the ear of the 'mindless thugs', show them just how hollow our Westminster Ciphers are, creating a bridge between the state and the near-stateless.

    Might there be half a dozen good 'men' currently 'doing nothing', in Westminster, but wishing they had the support and courage to do SOMETHING?

  • Comment number 18.

    #12: "Then there is a deep rooted cycle of apathy at best, raw aggression and worse amongst a small but growing segment of society who have no respect for any authority, no personal responsibility or understanding of right and wrong and turn away from all offers of support, determined as they are to cut the ropes on the ladders offered to help them climb out of the pit. "

    i presume you are talking about this Tory Govt and the Banksters? And no, i'm NOT being facetious.

  • Comment number 19.

    ".....i presume you are talking about this Tory Govt and the Banksters? And no, i'm NOT being facetious....."

    Not ONLY, but ALSO. The net of responsibility is wide, old as the hills and rainbow coloured. If you just blame the government and the bankers you are giving carte blanche to anyone who feels hard done by for any reason to disregard the rule of law.

    There is no single or current 'it's because....' no neat chain of responsibility with a start and end point. Ever has it been (sadly) thus.






  • Comment number 20.

    Many of you here have said there isn't any work for these young people and you are right, if you have a job you have investment in society. I expect Richards figures on youth unemployment are correct.

    But who made this situation, not just bankers and rich toffs.

    It was the labour government with it's policy of mass immigration, all those new foreign eager workers who work for a pittance took away our young peoples futures.

    I know a young man from central america, he's 23 works in a kitchen in a city near me, for £4.80 an hour. He's very bright and hard working and thinks nothing of working 10-12 hour days.

    Do you know how he found the job, by a friend living in central america who recommended him via another friend for the job in Kent.

    What chance do british youngsters have finding work, if word of mouth for work travels right across the atlantic?!

    I've watched this happen over and over again, our youngsters don't stand a chance of getting into the british world of work, if you want an apple picking job around here ask a Polish person.

  • Comment number 21.

    #20: "But who made this situation, not just bankers and rich toffs.

    It was the labour government with it's policy of mass immigration, all those new foreign eager workers who work for a pittance took away our young peoples futures."

    and who did nuLabour work for? The "bankers and rich toffs", hardly arguable that, is it?

    but these riots are being caused by English youths, of all communities, not "immigrants". Young people are literally desperate, and the riots are a manifestation of that. There is a snow-balls chance in Hell the Tory Govt are going to admit THEY made mistakes though, unlike the Japanse Govt, these is no tradition in the UK of admitting to their own failures.

    and this IS a failure of Govt, - as well as unacceptable behaviour by the rioters.

  • Comment number 22.

    '15. At 15:38 9th Aug 2011, Mindys_Housemate -
    it is somewhat pointless asking the rioters why they are "doing it", the majority of them will have learned from an early age to automatically lie to 'authority'. On top of which, they are more than enough media-savvy to know exactly what to say to get the biggest publicity (to be on TV), and what the media feed on is not calm, moderate, well-reasoned arguments


    In the spirit of addressing the argument, I can find little to fault in this.

    Begging the question as to what those of us, perhaps coming from different viewpoints, are to make of the role of a media not configured to feed on calm, moderate, well-reasoned arguments.

  • Comment number 23.

    Re: 20

    Free movement of labour in the EU is part of the globalisation process which has sapped away our manufacturing industry, sucked in poorer migrants from eastern europe and led to British companies being asset stripped, loaded with debt and dumped back on the market, along with their workforce being "slimmed down" and their standard of living hacked back.

    We have to end the failed globalisation, free market experiment.

    We need a new strategy based on A SUSTAINABLE NATION.

    A SUSTAINABLE ECONOMY NOT BUILT ON DEBT.

    SUSTAINABLE TRADE NOT BUILT ON A LARGE TRADE DEFICIT.

    SUSTAINABLE EMPLOYMENT FOR ALL OUR PEOPLE.

    SUSTAINABLE FOOD PRODUCTION TO STOP IMPORTING 40%.

    SUSTAINABLE ENERGY PRODUCTION TO STOP IMPORTING FOSSIL FUEL.

    SUSTAINABLE MANUFACTURING - MAKING MOST OF WHAT WE NEED IN THE UK.

    SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT - RECYCLING WASTE AND REDUCING IMPORTS.

    A SUSTAINABLE SOCIETY BASED IN FAIRNESS, ALL CONTRIBUTE AND ALL BENEFIT.

    This means ending free market dogma - rolling back the EU & GATT and limiting our population size to that which is sustainable in these islands.

    Let's get it clear - as the global economy shows real signs of collapse, we will be forced into a sustainability strategy anyway because the option of our current excessive importation will disappear anyway - we simply won't be able to afford it.

    We can start by looking hard at an industrial policy and a trade policy - why should foreign manufacturers be allowed to freely import goods made exploiting low paid workers in China? Import taxes should be used to remove any advantage of this type. Companies that want to sell to UK consumers should be required to employ a minimum % of UK workers, or pay an addiotnla tax as a contribution to supporting unemployment. Companies employing more than a % of UK workers should receive incentive payments funded out of import taxes.

  • Comment number 24.

    @23 I agree. It doesn't mean no trade, but it does mean a tariff and foreign exchange regime to encourage home production and employment - as Korea and Japan had in the '50s and 60s. It most certainly means that councils shouldn't be allowed to outsource services to call centres abroad, thus stabbing their local economies in the back. I hate the term "joined-up thinking": we need HOLISTIC thinking and planning on economic and social matters.

  • Comment number 25.

    SOME QUESTIONS FOR MY ‘WESTMINSER ENQUIRY’. WHAT KIND OF MP WOULD EMERGE INTO THE LIGHT?

    What is your primary aim in politics, and would a thorough study of your behaviour bear it out?

    Why did you join a party, rather than stand as an independent?

    Were you elected in your home area or ‘parachuted in’? What is your view of ‘parachuting’?

    When canvassing, which is the most powerful vote-draw: you, or your rosette. Validate your answer.

    Can the whip system be at odds with your duty to your constituents? What is your strategy?

    Are you ambitious for ‘office’, or OK to be a back-bencher? Where can you best serve constituents?

    Does universal suffrage strengthen democracy? Make a guess at the percentage of informed votes.

    What is your view of the large party war-chests, amassed to buy election advantage?

    What is your view of manipulative election advertising. Have you directly availed yourself of it?

    How do you feel about MPs who move out into parallel lucrative appointments. Will you seek to?

    Is the MP pension huge because no one can stop you, or because you are much better than us?

    DID YOU BLATANTLY AVOID A CLEAR, HONEST ANSWER TO ANY OF THE ABOVE QUESTIONS. IF SO, WHENCE CAME YOUR AUTHORITY?

  • Comment number 26.

    #21 "but these riots are being caused by English youths, of all communities, not "immigrants"."

    Mindy you don't read very carefully do you?! I thought you were a scholar.

    Where in my post do I say it's immigrants rioting?

    I'm saying the young british people are rioting, because of lack of work brought on by mass immigrantion. It's so easy to get a visa, you just walk into the embassy and get one in south and central america, and it's easy to renew after a couple of years as well, that's what our youth have to contend with GLOBILISATION.

  • Comment number 27.

    #23. richard bunning wrote:

    " ...
    A SUSTAINABLE SOCIETY BASED IN FAIRNESS, ALL CONTRIBUTE AND ALL BENEFIT."

    Now now, calm down!

    Sounds like 'from each according to their ability, to each according to their need' KM in "Critique of the Gotha Programme" (I think!) or is it Henri de Saint Simon, or perhaps it is from the Bible?

    Anyway the UK's Tea Party's face has suffused with reddish hue and gone for a lie down in a darkened room! (did I write Tea Party when I meant Tory Party)

    Are you suggesting that the old biblical entireties are best and could form the basis for running a modern(?) 21st Century global society?

    Whatever...

    The crux of your plan is exactly that - it is a plan and that requires a planned society which has little room for the flexibility of markets.

    I think you need to show how the efficiency and flexibility of the market will not destroy your planned society.

  • Comment number 28.

    #23 Exactly right as usual Richard! ; )

    Note what I said about the intelligent young man working here for peanuts, at home he would earn maybe a thousand pounds a year, if he were lucky.

    I've already told his father he's being underpaid, but they won't act on it.

    By the way this young man has three passports, two european and a central american one, so he has a wide choice. Oh and he's also one of those Brits who's only this year set a foot in Britain.

  • Comment number 29.

    Richard #23

    Neat manifesto except that its would appear that the tail end has as usual been poisoned by the eco-fascists, and despite the fact that the majority of the UK population want more food production child indoctrinator John Craven was attempting to portray that it would be a bad thing. The lame argument was that we needed to grow bio-fuel because if we had a bad harvest we would starve. It would appear that they are using good silage in fact enough to feed hundreds of cows for milk and beef to use for bio-gas to burn in an engine to generate very little electricity, no doubt for a massive subsidy.

    I don't have a problem with importing fossil fuel either, I believe that our north sea oil is pretty rich in the fractions used for plastic, but not quite so good for petrol. Perhaps we could swap it for the other type, and yet again the debate is poisoned by the eco-fascists when it comes to using our own coal. Similarly when it comes to recycling, the true sustainable way is to make all consumer goods last a lifetime, then the original energy investment in the metal etc is not lost, and can still be recycled at the end of its life.

    All you have to do is think about buying things like a new car and handing it on to your children when they pass their driving test. The sustainable jobs aspect comes in repairing and renewing products designed to last a lifetime. The only trouble is that the media and politicians have got everybody addicted to credit consumerism where everything has to be new or the very latest design, throw away anything else. Their cover for this wasteful practice is to say that its OK if you recycle, but most waste would be far better incinerated to generate cheap electricity, especially the plastic. Perhaps the only legislation needed is a total ban on consumer credit for anything not capable of lasting ( with maintenance ) at least 30 years.

  • Comment number 30.

    Kevsey, hope you're safe in Manchester. The riots have spread there too :o(

  • Comment number 31.

    Riots rapidly overtaking the centre of Manchester now, main shopping street shops on fire and Arndale Centre looted !

  • Comment number 32.

    NEWBURY SHUT DOWN - NEARBY THATCHAM HAS TROUBLE

    They have been pushing walls over, kicking fences in, dumping trolleys in the river for years. But in more recent times Westminster has demonstrated a cavalier attitude to laws of every kind and been found 'Not guilty enough' - escalation must be expected.

  • Comment number 33.

    we need Jeremy in for this one!! These feral youths are turning into uncaged beasts and have a mind of their own...with nobody thinking....

  • Comment number 34.

    Yesterday: "Your comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain." x5

    Despite being posted here (#18 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/2010/10/monday_18_october_2010.html%29, the mod deems a repost to breach copyright - when it's uncomfortable copy they don't like, more like. It’s 'bury your head in the sand' time, at the BBC.

    Just think, mods: if the black criminals and their fellow pond scum hadn't continued to riot, loot and assault, there wouldn't have been as much of a reason to repost.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856404/Police-statistics-shed-fresh-light-on-link-between-crime-and-race.html

    I will, however, repost the last bit:
    "Can I also bring to your attention that your persecution of posters won't succeed, especially when it lacks a certain subtlety: the length of posts allowed for JAPerson, in comparison to mine, makes it so overt and, therefore, a challenge that cannot be ignored."

    [cont. below]

  • Comment number 35.

    [cont.]
    So, what to do about the BBC?

    Something about the Licence Fee, maybe?

    In my dark days, when thought of the BBC makes me retch – beyond the usual piercing hatred - I find that consideration automatically turns to this. What can right-thinking people do to remove the BBC's grubby hands from our pockets?

    The most promising idea I have formulated is to target Experian, Equifax and all the other credit reference agencies, and urge them (or demand it in legislation) to help out those who vehemently object to being fleeced by peddlers of destructive socialist claptrap.

    It would do a world of good - and do the world some good - if they could recognise a boycott of the Licence Fee as a conscientious objection and turn a blind eye to any magistrates' court judgement. Surely it's the least we should expect, for holding our livelihoods in their hands, and getting it wrong so many times. Naturally I don’t condone law-breaking.
    [cont. below]

  • Comment number 36.

    [cont.]
    This epetition is a start, showing good intention, but I feel we can't wait 'til 2013, for the tax's abolition, as many Britons will have had two more payment demands before then and many can ill-afford £291, after 13 years of socialist taxation. This is truly the best option.

    http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/264

  • Comment number 37.

    "....we need Jeremy in for this one!! ..."

    Errrrrr. Why?

    Is it about Holidays? If so, let's recall all teachers and re-open the schools.

  • Comment number 38.

    Very good, mods; I didn't expect that, to my shame.

    You've now removed my 18.10.10 post. Just 9-months, 3-weeks-and-one-day late.

    Getting pretty desperate, eh?

    As I mentioned above: persecution.

  • Comment number 39.

    Perhaps the UK addiction to consumer credit and always buy the latest gadget quasi-religion explains and is a major factor why so much looting has gone on in the recent riots. Its the same mind set which causes people to queue up at 5 am to be the first to get the latest i-phone or computer games console. Its all the fault of the media, I can't help speculating that BBC advertising feature programme Click on Line was a significant factor in the looting of PC World, the mobile phone shops speak for themselves, There are now even adverts promising cash for your old mobile phone, it must significantly increase theft rates, and even the BBC riot coverage itself has been product placing smart phones in general, but then even Alex Jones is at it.

    For the last 20 years politicians have been pushing new everything especially trains and they never consider the cost to our overall disposable economy. The stupid thing is that the worst trains of all 4-wheel 142 Pacers are still in use on key services, packed like sardine cans when what they replaced was far better, all it needed was an engine upgrade. Its just the same with buses, instead of replacement at end of full life everything had to be new. The situation was not helped by the introduction of traffic calming, it wrecked the old coach built bodies, the new private operators now refuse to run a service on some traffic calmed road it causes so much damage to the new Low Floor buses.

    Like everything the politicians come up with on the behalf of their celebrity stock market parasite puppet masters it all about promoting false economic growth and increases the ever deepening financial apartheid between higher and lower income groups. The underclass see the bankers getting away with fraud whilst their cost of living spirals for the benefit of corporate profit, yet another election and no real change in government policy. Why care about the " Big Society " if you or your family are marginalised and criminalised by policy like the smoking ban, a significant proportion of them smoke dope so why not get sent down for a sheep as a lamb.

    Once upon at time you could aspire to a car when you were a teenager, now insurance costs are prohibitive to a large proportion of people, the best thing you can aspire to now is the latest computer game. Many people can't even afford that so jump at the chance to loot one under the impression that its unlikely they will be caught. In any case if they go to prison they will at least be able to have a full belly, most of them are already prisoners of the virtual ghetto's ( created by traffic calming ) where they are forced to inhabit. Political correctness has wrecked their local area and aspirations, people can only be pushed so far, perhaps a significant number are now over the edge. We need to think out of the box to find solutions to include them back and give them a tangible stake in society.

  • Comment number 40.

    Just listening to the debate on the riots, and Kelvin Mackenzie said that there was no discipline in the home. Of course not. It's illegal. The chastisement of young humans was banned a generation ago. At the time I said that in another generation we'll have 'lost children & youths on the streets. When the Tory government passed the ban, I wrote to my then local paper, the Evening Argus, in Brighton, and told them what I saw. I was laughed out of court as they say. I don't like laughing last, as there's so much suffering, but anyone who observes primates, including humans, could see this coming about.

  • Comment number 41.

    Harriet Harman was effectively justifying the behaviour of the rioters by mentioning tuition fees, the removal of the EMA and the problems experienced by modern youth.
    It is this sort of woolly thinking by sub par politicians that has put us in this position. Well done to Michael gove for tackling her directly.

  • Comment number 42.

    I thought Gavin Esler did particularly well tonight.

    The only thing that niggled me slightly is that while he did very well to stop people talking over each other, this more or less resulted in everyone getting equal air time.

    Clearly, some of those guests were more sure of themselves and more media savvy than others, so the less cocksure needed more time to develop their argument.

    brossen99

    Some of what you say is a little clichéd and possibly wrong, but I reckon there's some important truths in what you're saying.

  • Comment number 43.

    KELVIN IS ABSOLUTE ZERO

    And the tantrums between Priggy Boy Gove and Harridan Harperson were enough to make us ALL rise up and self-destruct. Oh Brave new World!

    The rapper supplied the cause but no one was listening: "hypocrisy and corruption" from memory. At Westminster, these are qualifications.

  • Comment number 44.

    Herbage

    I was also impressed by Gove - he seemed genuinely infuriated to be in a position where he could be implicitly criticised for causing a situation that was brought about (okay, arguably) by the previous government. Suffice to say, Harriet did not come out of this well, in my eyes.

    However, if you haven't looked at the background of the situation in some depth, then all you'll see is an angry-looking man being cross at a nice lady who just wants people to have more money whilst imposing budget constraints.

  • Comment number 45.

    In the Harman v Gove exchange it's supposed to be a constructive exchange of views.Gove used bullish tactics tonight and vented his personal anger to Harman rather than actively contributed to the debate he should be ashamed of himself denial if he does not believe cutting E.M.A closing Connexions overnight cutting benefits won't have a negative impact on the young and homelife.
    It's not so much what has been by the coalition but the speed and chaos of the constant changes that causes instability. That small matter of the cut in E.M.A has directly resulted in a Runcorn college to close as a result!!
    The result? Nearly 400 students need to travel to Widnes everyday leaving no further education provision in Runcorn.What does this say for the young and their future in Runcorn and surrounding area? For Gove to think sudden cuts is not a contributing factor,I am sorry,but the man is dilusional! Harman held herself well and made a valid point!

  • Comment number 46.

    Michael Gove tonight seemed to me to typify the current government in his treatment of Harriet Harman. He was rude, overbearing, and patronising in his constant use of her first name. If he really thinks that her points about all the different cuts that have hit young people have no validity, he is even more stupid and out of touch than I thought. I am retired so the cuts in EMA and other provision for youth don't affect me directly, but I have enough empathy and intelligence to know how it must feel to want to be able to work and have a reasonably secure future to look forward to but to be thwarted at every turn. And no, I'm NOT condoning the violence and looting but if something is not done to help all our young people feel that they have a part in society and their needs are recognised, this week's events will just be the beginning. With a government full of millionaires, I have to say I am not hopeful.

  • Comment number 47.

    part 1.: the clever Trolls are in full flow tonight!! I thought it felt like a Full Moon outside! :D


    the completely illegitimate, unprovoked and illegal attack on the newspaper-seller Ian Tomlinson at the G20 is NOT the same as young rioters this weekend. The two cases are entirely different, and the claim that the police are worried about being "racist" is entirety spurious, as said on the show. Many of the police ARE racist, but confronting rioters is part of their job. Don't try to blame "political correctness" for any problems, if you want to be taken seriously.


    duggan: oh my god. [from the report tonight] If it is now the police are shooting each other, wt[b] is going on, please?

    WHAT WAS THE 'INVESTIGATION; THAT LED TO THE DEATH OF DUGGAN???!???!??? [WHY was he shot, was it gang-related?] I think people need to know? There has come a lot of pain from this action, for a great many people. If mistakes were made, or possibly made, it needs apologising for, and measures put in place immediately. And if the Guardian is correct in its figures, then larger questions need to be raised.


    martin luther king was mentioned tonight, this speech?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTgpMVFMOEY


    joint enterprise was also mentioned:?
    http://www.innocent.org.uk/JointEnterprise/jointenterprise.html
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jul/29/gangs-joint-enterprise-unfair-police
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/jul/25/joint-enterprise-supreme-court-gnango :

    "Firstly, does justice and the effectiveness of the criminal justice system require the imposition of liability in situations where opposing persons agree not only to hit but to be hit? That is, does the fact that each hopes for different outcome (that they will be the one who is victorious) prevent them from sharing a common purpose and being found liable under the first type of joint enterprise?"

    --yes it does. Two boxers may agree to fight, but if some in the crowd get hurt, even by a boxer, that does not leave the other boxer liable.


    "Secondly, in the context of gang violence between two opposing sides (for example "home" and "away" groups) to what extent could the "away" group be held liable if the "home" group killed in an innocent bystander in the course of the fight?"

    the same extent. ALL groups should aim to minimise violence, and acts by both sides judged equally. But it is up to the Judge/Jury to decide the level of provocation and 'free will' in the event for individual participants, and the right punishment (if necessary) thereof.

    oh, and...:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/100017665/joint-enterprise-the-ancient-law-now-jailing-gangs-could-profitably-be-applied-to-thieving-legislators/

  • Comment number 48.

    part 2.: mackensie: the classic "tabloid outrage", how cliché. The other 3 made more sense.
    there is a difference between understanding - and defending!!

    true authority comes from respectful behaviour and love, NOT from more abusive behaviour, (Mckensie should work for Faux, he would be a *Star*. - I don't regard that as a compliment, btw). "Hearts and Minds", McKensie, is not just abroad. Nor is it just words.


    [personally removed a lot of swearing from my notes of the show. Was NOT impressed with Gove tonight. This last line is all i will try to get past the mods]


    Gove ended his career tonight, there is no way Labour, of any stripe or colour, can work with him anymore. His behaviour was completely inexcusable.


    harriet not-as-much-harms-men-as-before-man* was wonderful. So much better than her supposed leader. If she'd spent more time with Claire Short, and less with Brown and Blair, i'd trust her a great deal more, - thankfully not an insurmountable task.

    *no way to make that look good. I hope long-term readers will get it. :)


    the police DO need to understand their role, and limits. Plus, there IS a wider debate. Both of the people on the discussion panel were right. - The (civilian?) woman from the met police council especially so. But there was no disagreement with their positions, only importance of focus. The main aim right now should be achieving peace in out inner city communities. Then soul-searching can begin.?


    the more 'powers; the police get, the less actual power they have. Because a few misuse their powers, leading to more disenchantment with the population. Civilian police can only manage by the agreement, and acceptance, of those they police. Open resistance by populations exponentially increase the resources needed. Police can only function with the consent of those they help self-govern, if they are seen as 'outside', or above the Law, or also enforcing iniquitous laws, as, basically, "the Other" by many communities (ie "The Man" in US Counter-culture Fx), all factors that are increased by the Police having more Legal powers, all de-legitimise the Police in the eyes of the communities they ostensibly 'serve', and protect. This results in them having less natural authority, and thus less actual power. The police knew this when they refused extra powers under nuLabour, and the Met have understood that better than most.

    parents, rioting: back to murdochracy. Studies in the US in the 80s discovered that many children of young parents relied too much on TV for their children upbringing, children saw more TV than had parent time. "Feral" programming came from this era. The young parents would be more likely to read/watch Murdoch media, and the values of the Murdochracy ruled within the communities - the archetypal 80s.

    whilst the children of the middle classes may have turned out like AbFab's, the children of those at the brunt fared less well. But *NEVER* imagine they are stupid, their learning was simply not in schools. Which, when you look at London, now seems a shame.

    yeah Barry - Schools need reform. But i DON'T mean 'privatisation', by whatever name. Education MUST be enjoyable, and enjoyable does not mean easy: it means well explained and exciting - and desired (or at least trust enough to try it).

    and i WONDER how many of those "youths" would be in college, or be ready to wait/study for college, if they had a chance to go there? Compare the benefit in handing £1.75Tn to the banks, with the paltry few £Ms to pay for 'A' Level financial support, EMA:
    http://www.highland.gov.uk/learninghere/grantsandallowances/ema/
    http://saveema.co.uk/


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vmj9pebXJY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXRIxI1Bu4g

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqpAgMxhx30&ob=av2n

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGSajAGg9h4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10hikADUCIw

  • Comment number 49.

    --i should put the titles, in case the links change. :/

    hopefully, across the country:
    Tori-Amos - enjoy the silence.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gZzkGvyqzc


    peace.

  • Comment number 50.

    impressed with Cameron so far.

  • Comment number 51.

    To me, Cameron's public face appears exactly what one would expect in a media environment where anyone who sticks their neck out gets their head ripped off.

    I am not convinced that is a good thing.

  • Comment number 52.

    When these young rioters were in edukashion, LABOUR were the government, the Conservatives have barely been in eighteen months, so how is it their fault?

    We were desperately hard up when our three kids went through their education, no holidays, no luxury goods, a very old car etc. child benefit had been frozen, no EMA, inflation and a couple of recessions, and YET all my kids got degrees, so someones failing, maybe the freebee labour government.

    A good read.....

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html

  • Comment number 53.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 54.

    ON THE LOLLYPOPS AGAIN (#50)

    Which one? Cameron has two faces and a facility to vilify a running-mate and the gall to connive at a 'Liar Flyer' to gain power.

    Do you seek such behaviour in a leader Mort?

  • Comment number 55.

    "THIS ISN'T A FUNDAMENTALLY DEFECTIVE COUNTRY" (Boris Johnson)

    Usually I would not term Boris succinct, but in a few words, he demonstrated (on Today) the uncomprehending world that he - and his ilk - inhabit.

    Oh Boris, lovable Boris, spend half an hour with me and I will show you that THE VERY FACT YOU CAN SAY SUCH A FATUOUS THING, from your Ivory Tower, encapsulates the deep intractability of cure to our FUNDAMENTAL defectiveness.

    Here is a picture of one of your gang, blithely waving what - for her - is a GET OUT OF JAIL CARD. Were it waved by a less exulted (and less trusted!) mindless XXXX, it would be an admission of guilt.

    http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&xhr=t&q=hazel+blears+cheque+photo&cp=26&pf=p&sclient=psy&source=hp&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=hazel+blears+cheque+photo+&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=2be00328af8c3b27&biw=1280&bih=552

  • Comment number 56.

    After siding with an earlier piece (kicked SKY into touch this morning when they decided 'viewers' views' had voted for vigilantism, and hence we got treated to a white 'angry local' shoving his face in the camera to tell other 'community members' to come and take 'im and 'is mates on if they felt 'ard enf - I did not feel this was the MSM acting responsibly when stories of multi-culti clean up squads may have portrayed a more positive, calming message), I must again wonder what is meant by such definitive statements as this:

    '47. At 06:07 10th Aug 2011, Mindys_Housemate wrote:
    part 1.: the clever Trolls are in full flow tonight!!'


    Not a social media expert by any means, but the definitions of troll seem hard to assign to any postings I see here. And now there is an enhanced, 'clever' version. What is that?

    Surely, not more an attempt at dismissing views not shared by trying to attack the person over addressing any argument?

    As with this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/2011/08/monday_8_august_2011.html?postId=109908876 - it is easy to pop something out, but really there needs to be more in support to be engaged with properly.

    '37. At 21:41 9th Aug 2011, BrightYangThing wrote:
    "....we need Jeremy in for this one!! ..."'


    Well, looking at this - http://vimeo.com/27509810 - he couldn't have done much worse as a moderator... could he? (Sorry Fair Pay, in this, at least, I must disagree). That Ms. Harman might be seen as a solution to anything, given her historical record and performance last night... is well, funny. And why are we so far getting references to Mr. Miliband only in the 3rd person? Is he now in an ivory tower only to be quoted by acolytes? He's usually never off the screen with a snappy sound bite.

    Lines are shifting as public mood is getting assessed, and one senses the players are really having trouble pinning this down.

    Like the 'we need more money for Directors of racial harmony on £150k' argument, when it seems very clear their job effectiveness thus far has been zero, I am also less impressed with the 'we need to stop the cuts to the police', at least in the number terms being articulated.

    If their role is to stand and observe a bloke looting from 5m, then having ten more with them seems hardly likely to do much more than beef up the pension bill.

    And if one of these thugs does get nabbed bang to rights, having a high paid legal aid shark swoop in to tell the court he is very, very sorry and was only acting out after being told he was oppressed before being released, seems more pertinent to 'understanding the reasons'.

    '38. At 22:02 9th Aug 2011, Strugglingtostaycalm
    Very good, mods; I didn't expect that, to my shame.
    You've now removed my 18.10.10 post. Just 9-months, 3-weeks-and-one-day late.


    Purely on the matter of revisionism, the signs are not good in terms of the historical precedent, with squads following up behind to 'tidy up'. In the era of the Kremlin Mayday Photoshop it was noted, but while the internet does allow such stealth editing to be captured, the sheer pervasive nature of it all, and vastness of the internet estate, means much can be easily lost. If you are not careful. Or cease to care.

    We're often as good as what we're told.

    Which may explain why there is little good about these days.

  • Comment number 57.

    '55. At 09:08 10th Aug 2011, barriesingleton wrote:
    "THIS ISN'T A FUNDAMENTALLY DEFECTIVE COUNTRY" (Boris Johnson)


    Barrie, I rarely disagree with you, but in certainly not agreeing with Boris in all ways may I offer a personal qualifier at least.

    What you have cited perfectly encapsulates just how defective this country is... in parts. Sadly at the moment at the lower end, but more damningly at the upper as well, as that picture reveals, and every miserable broadcast producer iPhone address book favourites testify.

    But this country, as a whole, is WONDERFUL.

    I see it every day in the bucolic idyll I am lucky enough to inhabit, but also the urban hell holes I am served up by our ratings-hungry, agenda-driven media daily.

    Even when I do end up in cities, 99% of the time I see kids playing, workers laughing and families getting on with it.

    Even at this dark time, epitomised by the clean-up crews getting on with it, as opposed to 'community leaders' a bit keener on the camera and sneaking in their political affiliations whilst seeking to score more money to be in charge of dispersing.

    Money was not needed to pick up a broom or a hammer and fix things. Just the will to do right.

    Sadly that doesn't 'fit' with the picture many media prefer, and those who end up in the studios as opposed to after hours community work in the community, are usually members of the club Groucho had sussed.

  • Comment number 58.

    I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY JUNKK. (#57)

    I was a kid in the war - the real one, where the Global Loony of that time, wanted to invade US (the cheek!) I lived in a dormitory suburb with countryside all around. But you couldn't enjoy it when cowering in the Morrison Shelter, waiting for the next (last?) buzz-bomb . . .

    Show me how Westminster, with its self-protecting ethos, can ever take this multicultural disaster anywhere but down, and I will be lifted.

    Surely you can see that Westminster Politics is a game played on the Global Stage, with our money and wellbeing, to their enrichment and aggrandisement.

    When they have the gall to vilify the bottom end, for behaving despicably, why do they neglect their own contribution in that area? With Westminster governance, who needs a German invasion?

    I am a tad suspicious you have your head in the sand. A lot of that lovely countryside is owned by toffs and subsidised by Toffville WITH OUR MONEY. A damned good job the 'brooms' were free!

  • Comment number 59.

    was the first 30mins newsnight or was it trisha? or kilroy? who keeps dragging newsnight into daytime tv?

    using force as the last resort. so what is the last resort? hundreds rampaging burning and looting is pretty last resort? police seems to have an impossible high threshold as last resort?

  • Comment number 60.

    what is the role of 1xtra in the riots?

  • Comment number 61.

    SHEER MASOCHISM - I WATCH DAVE BEING STEREOTYPICALLY STATESMANLIKE

    Dave came out of No10 and barked like a latter-day Jeffrey Archer. Leadership, it wasn't.

    He seemed to know everything that is wrong with our society, but have no clue that Westminster, having presided over, nay, ENGINEERED this mess, stand indicted.

    Dave spoke of people who DON'T TAKE RESPONSIBILITY - FEEL THEY ARE OWED SOMETHING. In the last year I have identified more than a few of those IN WESTMINSTER.

    He bemoaned the lack of parenting and the like - ALL THE THINGS THAT WESTMINSTER HAS STRIPPED OUT, TO MAKE ROOM FOR MAMMON!

    Dave truly is a Dickens character. Prime Minister Cringeworthy.

    WE GOT OURSELVES ANOTHER ONE

  • Comment number 62.

    SOME NUTTER IS SURE TO FIRE A 'SIGNIFICANT' BUILDING (#59)

    I think that might prove the upgrade you ponder.

  • Comment number 63.

    Barrie... toffs... really? Kevin Maguire giving you media coaching?

    With my head where I choose my head to be, though others may presume to locate it to where they feel it suits their needs better, I surf around because news from single sources can often seem constrained by editorial...

    Hence, elsewhere...

    http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/the-next-48-hours/

    The BBC have headlined the second fact without the first. Particularly dangerous in the circumstances, especially from a public service broadcaster.

    Editorial omission is bad enough, but active manipulation that can only serve to incite...?

    ps: Ms. Blears in the frame again.

    pps: If 60+ comments here equates to the numbers who view Newsynightie, I wonder how near 600 equate to those who view those in the real world?

    ppps: By way of mending bridges, I concede that there is a huge mess, and many are complicit. But many are not.

    And while I'm all for positivity, looking forward 'n all, when some clowns have clearly unleashed a genie that is not easily, if ever going back in that bottle, a certain amount of blame does seem in order.

    And I think they all know it's long overdue. All of 'em... especially the broadcast clowns also bringing such gems as this when their colleagues incite inter-racial divisions in the studio and edit suite:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100100339/what-will-happen-to-the-convicted-rioters/

  • Comment number 64.

    Last night I had the novel experience of actually feeling sorry for Harriet Harman, Michael Gove was not only disputatiously unpleasant to her,but displayed all the worst aspects of a self righteous grandstanding politician.He acted like the spoilt, nasty, public school brat that he is.His thuggish behaviour is the mirror image of the nasty selfish criminals that have laid waste to sections of urban England,he is as unthinking and narrow minded as they are. Where was he on Sunday and Monday? Why was Ken Livingstone the only politician to put his over the parapet then? Where were the government spokesmen,including Gove, at that time?
    The situation needed a calm,firm hand and what we got was silence and then a scurrying back from various parts of the globe, with the usual tired clichés about law and order.
    Lets be straight about this, the inner city and deprived areas of the nation will through up these problems until they stop becoming deprived and run down.Sticking plaster policies or pointless grand projects like the dome and the Olympic park only serve to boost politicians egos without ever tackling the fundamental problems of economic dysfunction.The establishment still fails to maintain social discipline and gives out all the wrong signals on work, thrift and community cohesion.Each section of the establishment has been shown to be venal,unpleasant and self interested.
    I would hope that everyone, would calm down and have a rethink,but I fear that we will continue on this merry go round of costly mitigation,riot and denunciation.

  • Comment number 65.

    This seems to be 'our' media's new meme...

    '@BBC_WHYS World Have Your Say
    We're live on air, what's your reaction to #vigilantes in London? Is it ever acceptable to take the law in to your own hands?'


    Now, how would Jeremy Vine and his show clam things down?

  • Comment number 66.

    "rioters warned they will feel the "full force of the law""

    But they do not fear the law... the "full force" is thus an inadequate deterrent. What do they care for an(other) asbo so long as they get to keep all of the stuff they looted.

    That is the key - deprive the of the benefits of their crime, as well as punishing them.

    Unfortunately the law's "force" is not up to the task, or this situation would not have arisen!

  • Comment number 67.

    What IS wonderful about Britain, is the humour and good nature of most of the British most of the time.

    Where else would you get the Facebook event "Anti-Riot • Operation Cup Of Tea"?

    It has about 200 000 followers at the moment. I believe there is something similar on twitter.

    However, we do have serious problems of our own creation which need to be addressed: sooner rather than later!

  • Comment number 68.

    It is a bit rich of politicians to blame 'parenting' for this outbreak of lawlessness amongst mostly younger people in English cities.

    Parents obviously have a highly significant part to play in nurturing their offspring but the State and its politicians, via its effective monopoly of education, have, in my opinion, to carry most of the blame for this.

    By their well meaning but utterly misguided education policies, these politicians, have over the past few decades, practically ensured that our England is in a very big hole now.

    So at this point, the conventional wisdom is to stop digging a failed educational hole.

    Let us all who live in England hope that it is not too late to change these education policies, for example, by restarting the third 'technical' stream.

  • Comment number 69.

    64. At 12:14 10th Aug 2011, richard styles wrote:
    Last night I had the novel experience of actually feeling sorry for Harriet Harman


    Different folks, different strokes...

    But beyond the person, and even the tonality, how about the argument?

    Here's another view...

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/neilobrien1/100100392/harriet-harman-and-the-intellectual-bankruptcy-of-the-progressive-left/

    Have to say, when it comes to 'understanding causes', I am erring on who was in charge for a large chunk of time, money and investment in various things, such as education, in the lead up to 'events' that seem less than attributable to cuts in areas such as Ms. Harman was spouting. So maybe such tripe being indulged for decades does rather deserve a robust placing where it deserves.

    On the BBC's much loved twitter news ticker source, but oddly not boosted to home page prominence, it is being wryly noted that Waterstones was mostly spared by disaffected youth seeking only the means to better themselves.

  • Comment number 70.


    I don't think we have a lot to fall out over.

    What galls me deeply is that Westminster is SOOO rotten, and has re-distilled its rottenness over-and-over, such that it LOOKS NORMAL - even venerable. Crocodiles of kids go there and return to write essays - no one notices. Mythology is FULL of MONSTERS like this. There is even a Screwtape Bar.

    Most 'good men' know their MP has gained status by virtue of a PROXY ROSETTE, and consequently accepted the wholly undeserved (manifestly so) title of HONOURABLE. Have you ever heard of a newly elected MP demurring on such matters? To me THIS is one symptom of Westminster rot we could ALL take on LOCALLY. Small beginnings. My list at 25 would make an edgy programme to spring on unwary MPs. Hello? NewsyNighty!

    BUT GOOD MEN HAVE LOST SIGHT THAT SOMETHING NEEDS DOING!

  • Comment number 71.

    STOP DIGGING A FAILED 'EDUCATIONAL' HOLE (#69)

    When my sister gained teaching qualifications, she went to teach in Brixton - not our area. She rose to be an iconoclastic Head. Meanwhile, I fought the school system (for self and sons) an teased out the many errors - as I see tham - in its ethos. When, after decades, we compared notes, agreement was close: Give the motivated ones an 'OU-type facility' and, in parallel, create a PSYCHOLOGY BASED whole new ethos, to bring the the 'Damned' (whom SCHOOL destroys) into the centre ground of competence.

    Sadly - Gove would not even be able to see the value of such an approach. But then: COULD TRY HARDER.

  • Comment number 72.

    PART OF BRITAIN IS SICK (Dave) - AND EVEN TAKES PRIDE IN IT (#69 link)

    "The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them….To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them."

    CAN YOU SEE WHAT IT IS YET?

    St Tony gave us wars on that basis, yet STILL GOOD MEN DO NOTHING.

  • Comment number 73.


    #55 barrie

    From the bbc riot webpage...

    1414: Hazel Blears, Labour MP for Salford and former Secretary of State for Communities has just returned from inspecting the damage in Salford after last night's trouble. Speaking to BBC 5 live she says: "Small businesses who employ local people are now going to have completely rebuild and that's what has made me so angry - these small minority of criminals, who are ruining it for good and decent people."

    When asked whether she would mind if water cannons were introduced into the city, she says: "As fas as I'm concerned the police should so what it takes."

    -----------------

    As you say...

    "Here is a picture of one of your gang, blithely waving what - for her - is a GET OUT OF JAIL CARD. Were it waved by a less exulted (and less trusted!) mindless XXXX, it would be an admission of guilt."


    It makes me sick to the gut.

  • Comment number 74.

    WATERSTONES MOSTLY SPARED (#69)

    Now that IS wilful blindness.

  • Comment number 75.

    Can you image any business surviving if 20% of its output was continuously defective?

    No, neither can I.

    Yet 20% of school-leavers are illiterate and innumerate.

    Such are the evils of a State monopoly.

    As Michael Gove's wife, columnist Sarah Vine indicates in todays Times, some of these politicians are now very close to reaping what they have sowed down the decades.

    It is very hard to feel much sympathy.

  • Comment number 76.

    WE ARE SAVED (#75)

    When it all gets too much, we can watch Sally Burcow in The Hoos, and never know . . .

    Nuff sed.

    PS John Burcow is another 'good man' who knows of the Liar Flyer, but is doing nothing.

  • Comment number 77.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 78.

    Ed Milliband says there are 'complex reasons' behind the riots in England.

    Maybe.

    But if, in many cases, there is a patent lack of parental care, then it becomes even more crucial that the State education monopoly is working at 100% efficiency.

    Which does not appear to be anywhere near the case.

  • Comment number 79.

    JINGO DAVE UPDATE

    "The Fight-back is underway." WHO IS WRITING THIS CLAPTRAP? Is a 'fight-back' the most effective way to tackle this? Jingo Dave is beginning to show his total lack of acumen for the post he has bagged. Clipped phrases and ill-considered sloganeering, are a long way from the skilful nurturing that this messed up country needs, in the carp space, going forward.

    Go back to your constituency Dave, and PREPARE FOR HOME TRUTHS. Hand over No 10 to Camilla Batmanghelidjh. Camilla (bless her) does not jingo.

  • Comment number 80.

    Please don't just concentrate on cuts to the police. Like the police we (fire service) are facing huge cuts in year 3 and 4. It appears most fire authorities' are predicting reducing fire appliance and fire fighters, we will not be able to offer the same service as now. Also the government would like us to work to the age of 60. Can you imagine doing this job some of what you have seen recently at that age. There will also be fewer " back office" non operational jobs as they are being cut in year 1 and 2.

  • Comment number 81.

    the police are to be congratulated as I wouldn't risk a life threatening injury confronting a YOB with a housebrick knowing that in twelve months time my government will be casting me on to the scrap heap to appease rich bankers

 

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