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Tuesday 22 February 2011

Sarah McDermott | 11:27 UK time, Tuesday, 22 February 2011

Libya's Col Muammar Gaddafi has condemned anti-government protests in the country and refused to cede power, in his first major speech since unrest began.

Tonight we'll have the very latest on what's happening inside Libya, and Jeremy will joined from Cairo by Baroness Ashton, the EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs.

Then we'll be turning our attention to the future of printed media.

David Grossman investigates if dwindling circulation figures mean the days of consuming your morning news in paper form are numbered.

Anne McElvoy of The Economist presents a thesis on why amateur and citizen journalism can be no substitute for professional journalism.

And Jeremy Paxman will be joined in debate by guests including Alan Rusbridger of the Guardian, FT editor Lionel Barber, Google's Peter Barron, and Mark Thompson, BBC director general.

Join Jeremy at 10.30pm on BBC Two.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    I think reports of Gaddifi being on the 'way out' could be a bit premature, he is despised by his own people and is a tyrant who gets his aircraft to fire on his own people but is a ruthless operator who thinks nothing of mass murder. The virtual 'peacefull' transition of power in Egypt even though hundreds died will, sadly, not be the case in Libya.

  • Comment number 2.

    "Policy Editor of The Economist, Anne McElvoy will be presenting a thesis on why amateur and citizen journalism can be no substitute for professional journalism."

    ermmm, what??

    the Economist is certainly not staffed by "professional journalists", but by propagandic hacks that rarely have any knowledge of economics anyway. The Economist is STILL pushing through neo-liberal KKKorporate global control, even after the last 60 years or more have shown this model ONLY benefits the owners of the KKKorporates, impoverishing everyone else, and destroying the ecological basis upon which Mankind's survival stands.

    i found out recently that 'the Economist' is a central plank of Bilderberger propaganda outlets, which i so have to admit didn't shock me in the *slightest*.

    in fact, i have read far more intelligent, accurate and economically literate articles here on the BeebBlogs than i have EVER read in the Economist in the last 20+ years.

    so anne mcelvoy can whine and bleat all she wants, but i'll take that "citizen journalism" over her "professional propaganda" any day of the week.

    gee, i just can't IMAGINE why those in control of mass-media and other opinion-forming propaganda would hate to see citizens communicating amongst themselves. Gosh, that's almost like, dare i whisper it, ... "democracy"???

    tell you what, NN, inform her it is part of camoron's "Big Society" (perhaps the only part that is actually working), and tell her to take her complaints that the People are "just not listening to us anymore" to him, and see what he says. If possible, do it publicly and record it. What an interesting and revealing discussion that would be.


    newspapers... more interesting in information media is how much News citizens are actually taking in. Are we spending MORE time on news and political discussion than we were? As the move to peer2peer news becomes ever stronger, are people BETTER informed than through owner-and-editor controlled newspapers?

    to make any "environmental" claims about this would require a group of ecologists analysing the impact not just of the processing of paper, but also the costs of producing the ipads/PCs whatever. And disposal.


    the horrors of Libya:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/200609110061

    and dictatorial, power-mad Govts that are willing to slaughter vast numbers of their own citizens to maintain themselves and their 'class' in power. Not always foreign.


    Libya is one of the more worrying countries, because it has oil. Which means direct Western intervention. And probably why this has turned so incredibly ugly and murderous. Whoever 'wins' this will have to face the West. If they want to use the oil revenues to build up Libyan civil society, they are likely to be invaded. If they want to set up a corrupt regime, and pocket the revenues (into Western banks, natch), that will be fine-and-dandy. How do i know this? History.

    but the nice thing about history, is that if you know *and understand* history, then you can avoid repeating it. My Best Wishes go out to the Libyan people, for your times are interesting indeed. I hope all turns out well for you.


    peace.

  • Comment number 3.

  • Comment number 4.

    'Anne McElvoy of The Economist presents a thesis on why amateur and citizen journalism can be no substitute for professional journalism.

    Can't wait. Meanwhile, on the topic of going out and sourcing a good spread of views to support one's objective reporting and impartial discussions...

    'Jeremy Paxman will be joined in debate by guests including Alan Rusbridger of the Guardian, FT editor Lionel Barber, Google's Peter Barron, and Mark Thompson, BBC director general.

    Good old Alan. Must be nice to have him on.

    I was amused to get this tweet today from his paper:

    mediaguardian
    A council that cannot come to terms with freedom of informationhttp://gu.com/p/2n9qp/tf


    ... on the same day that some other media are either in the process of ignoring some multiple standard malfunctions on a story that must be inconvenient to one so dear, whilst it's slash and burn on the modding on the quaintly named 'Comment is Free' blogs. Mr Gaddafi would be proud.

    Don't know Mr. Barber, but Mr. Barron rings a bell. Where did he work before? And no doubting where the DG hails from.

    So... guessing folk from papers with slightly healthier ABC ratings or a broader demographic spread couldn't make it again, eh? To, er, 'debate'. Pity.

    By the by, there was an earthquake today. Did you hear? Or are the microphone holders all still in Chile, or gagging for a balcony view over a square in Tripoli.?

  • Comment number 5.

    Just to be clear... this Alan Rushbridger....?:

    http://order-order.com/2011/02/22/an-open-letter-to-alan-rusbridger/

    One can see how his media 'expertise' may appeal.

  • Comment number 6.

    Some seem keen, mind.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2011/feb/22/newspapers-bbc2?

    Can't think why.

    Others... less so.

    But I can hazard a guess.

    Unique.

  • Comment number 7.

    colon gaddafi Now Known As Colon Gaddafi No Mates .. OOPS Sorry

    Gaddafi has One Mate tony blair

  • Comment number 8.

    No 5 checked out the Link

    I might be on the Wrong Site

    You Can Swear like A Trooper There $%&£"!% Hell

    Its Freedom but not as NN would NO

  • Comment number 9.

    None of them are really newspapers any more; how much investigation really goes on to bring you a story?

    Press releases are re-hashed , talking heads invited to blah their single issue zealotry, journalists write about themselves, their families, their issues, their cakes.

    Or just cop someone's voicemails ; itsa scoop, innit?

    More news in The People's Friend and the Weekly News.


    ps what Mork? has to say about the Economist is absolutely bang to rights; Fraser Nelson an authority?

    The New Statesman is just as bad with that opinionated Mehdi Hasan as its political editor; yah - boo sucks seems to be the level of debate there nowadays; at least Fraser can string a sentence together, albeit in that grating Scotstransatlantic drawl.

  • Comment number 10.

    Lead on MrDuff an' nip oor heids wi'blethers.

    It takes 2 2 make a terrorist.

  • Comment number 11.

  • Comment number 12.

    :o) It'll be great to see Peter Barron back on Newsnight with Jeremy - certainly look forward to that.

  • Comment number 13.

    WILL OUR BRAINS TURN TO MUSH BEFORE/AFTER WE ARE TOTALLY ENSLAVED? (#11)

    It is all uncannily like being inside 'The Truman Show' Bro. We watch Alex Jones coming apart with emotion, to BACKGROUND MUSACK and it doesn't feel right.
    In the moments before his plug is pulled, as the black uniformed paramilitaries close down America, will Alex be playing musical backing to theatrical histrionics? One might almost believe he is ONE OF THEM. After all - who does one believe?



  • Comment number 14.

    Ah and here's a gem! Red Nose Day is coming up on March 18th this year, but was first started way back in 1988! Here's Jeremy doing his first ever sketch for Red Nose Day in 1988
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoXykbfJK5M&feature=player_embedded

  • Comment number 15.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 16.

    The problem with Gaddafii is that there are few Arab leaders in countries that will now speak out against him and influence his early exit from power ... as most of them are too concerened trying to hold their own despot regimes together.

    Britain's role in helping to prop up Gaddaffi is, to say the least ... 'shameful'.

    Surely, the way to help the people of Libya get rid of Gaddaffi is to put his name on a UN war crimes list with a special early warrant for his early arrest + some sanctions on e.g. weaponry and him and his supporters travelling ... togther with his henchmen (and women by the looks of those around him).

    If this can be done quickly ... then there is hope that Libya can make a peaceful transition into something better for its people than Gaddafi thinking that he is better staying around and increasing his grip on domestic Libyan terror. There is plenty that can de done to help the Libyan people without outsiders interfering directly.

  • Comment number 17.

    THERE IS TALK OF A LARGER WAR CRIMES NOOSE (#16)

    But might it then be able to rope in a Global God-figure who abused power in exchange for fame and riches?

    How very embarrassing for Britain.

  • Comment number 18.




    22.02.11. Newsnight.


    Mindys companion ........

    From what you say it might be that I owe the Nn team a bit of a groveling apol .....

    Nope! Can’t use that word! It’s not ‘pc’! Can’t use THAT word, not yet! I might get ‘dogged’ (Gee, I hope that “dogged’ on the blog means something other than the meaning some people give the word? Ooh! Tears in my eyes! But .... Hey! That’s life, politics et al!)

    Must have missed it - thinking stroke dreading Deity Conmoron or other member of the con-alition was about to appear - when India’s best export summonsed!

    iPlayer, come to Mohammed! ( Anyone care to hint on the time frame? ..... Anyone?)

    Maybe the Nn production team does actually read these posts and just might be taking note of the suggestion/hint/requirement/ demand/plea that they .......

    Lead, not follow.



    And .... Oh yes! .....

    Todays ‘Today’ .....

    Between 07.30 and 07.57 (?)

    Very profound ‘precis’ of one of the big problems facing this country as a result of the last thirty years.

    A black person arguing that ethnicity and cultural origin was particularly relevant to selecting potential adopters, putting forward the premise that it was essential that adoptees remained close to ‘their’ roots. Versus ..... A black person - adopted by caucasian ‘parents’ - countering that “roots’ ‘orientation’ was way down the list - if not completely off it - as we are all english .......

    Go Bro!

    But .... A question ......?

    Why are ‘ethnic’ couples not coming forward to adopt?

    (Nn! A story perhaps?)


    And .... Oh yes! ..... again!

    Deity Conmoron .... (sadly) again!

    Today’s ‘address’ to the oil rich .....

    Take out the references to the region and the ‘diatribe’ very much ends up as ....

    “Do as I say, not as I do!”



    PS Posters please note ....

    I’m androgynous enough (It ‘aint pc to say ‘man’ is it man?) to apologise if needs be but I’ll say it to myself as I just can’t bring myself to type the word ‘Sorry’ cos my street cred will be lower than Deity’s fag!


    PPS EXCELLENT exchange of views between lizzie and mindys on the last post. (Or is that still to come?) Combine the two views and the outcome must surely be that both recognise there is a problem i.e. numbers and control! Alternatively .... Control and numbers!

    But - still - does anyone listen?

    PPPS I ‘aint joining no street protest, yet! Why? Sir J still rules.

    PPPPS Nn ..... Lead, don’t follow.



  • Comment number 19.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 20.

    barrie #13

    There is one common thread that links all the anti-globalist commentators and organisations in that all of them have a twist in their rhetoric. If they were all dead straight up the Corporate Nazi's would never allow them to broadcast anything. I suppose that you are too old to appreciate heavy metal music and perhaps Alex would be more palatable to you if it was classical stuff, much of which I can't stand but then its just my age group.

  • Comment number 21.

    Trouble in Libya is that Gaddafi did not de-tribalize the country, in fact encouraged tribalism, even within the armed forces; the country will disintegrate, a bit like Iraq and unlike Egypt where the army are a unifying force.

    The Israelis will be unhappy at Iran able to use the Suez Canal again; things are getting edgy.

    Libya disintegrates; price of oil rises to non fluctuating 120; Saudis ask for quid pro quo for increasing production sufficiently to avoid panic; viz. aid from US and by extension UK if troubles spread to land of Saud.

    At same time Israel demands support if Iran's ships get too close.

    El Arens was right.

  • Comment number 22.

    WHEN I WERE A LAD (#20)

    Documentaries documented. Alastair Cook did not deliver his keenly crafted information and comment to, over, or under music.

    I love a song with a crafted lyric, but I want my data straight. I have not seen books set in bizarre type - why does TV do the equivalent.

    No Bro - something insidious is going on. Video-wall studios with blobs, pulsing rings, bogus London scenes, floating week-days and a host of other garbage, are part of it. AND PAXMAN NEVER EMITS A PEEP. They have got him too.

  • Comment number 23.

    SO DAVE IS IN COALITION WITH EITHER A FOOL OR A KNAVE - RIGHT?

    Just got my local free-sheet with a full-page Con.

    Dave says AV is a load of rubbish that Nick only espoused in a dodgy U-turn. OK, take that as read. What sort of chump goes into coalition with a male-chicken-eyed Wally like that?

    Oh yeah - Dave. Do politicians have ANY acumen at all?

    WE HAVE GOT OURSELVES ANOTHER ONE.

  • Comment number 24.

    Following JAP's point above, an excellent discussion on C4 News tonight from 2 black adults adopted as children by white couples ; the guy said his adopting parents were told the agency had grave concerns about;

    1. Would they be able to comb his hair properly?
    2. Whether they would feed him his "ethnic" diet?
    3. Did they know enough about his "culture" so they could "engage" with him?

    So much for multiculturalism; well meaning ignorance.

  • Comment number 25.

    ANIMALS GENERALLY DON'T ADOPT DIFFERENCE (#18)

    So it is probable that a baby has to do some 'unnatural' accommodating.
    How might that manifest later?

    I have had one factor reported first hand - it did not bode well.

    No way can the appropriate trials be run; not even by Prof Winston.

    Instinct and intuition are being trampled in the Age of Perversity.

    Oh - it's all going awfully well.

  • Comment number 26.

    IF I WANT TO ENCOUNTER IGNORANCE I JUST GO WHERE I DON'T BELONG (#24)

    (It's the way I tell 'em Kash.)

  • Comment number 27.

    #24 Yes but Mr KB you left out his last important comment which was, I am English, you couldn't get more positive than that could you.

  • Comment number 28.

    #18 Why are ‘ethnic’ couples not coming forward to adopt?

    As I've heard it told JA they only want to bring up their own born children, not someone else's. I wouldn't say it was prejudice, it's just how they feel about adoption I suppose.

    I expect the answer is in Barries words...What would nature do?

  • Comment number 29.

    The Chagos Islands, Diego Varcia ? I am with Ben Fogle on this.

    Denying The People who Hail from There 2 Return Home

    Is An Appalling Act of Cruelty

    For an American Air Force Base

  • Comment number 30.

    Is it The Old Dear or The King James or is it Both/Beath

  • Comment number 31.

    DIEGO GARCIA SHAMES US BEYOND SHAME (#29)

    But then, the hallmark of the Westminster politician is ABSENCE OF SHAME or they would not last a day in that Machiavellian Minster.

    Perhaps before another ballot paper is marked in this DEMOCRACY under the RULE OF LAW that we cheerfully BOMB INTO JOHNNIE FOREIGNER, we (the people) should go on vote strike, on behalf of the Chagos islanders.

    That might redeem us a tiny bit (though our crimes are legion).

  • Comment number 32.

    13 .. 31 Sadly Yes But There's Far Worse Than Us


    We Are The Best of The Bunch

  • Comment number 33.

    The Colon Daffy The Duck of Death Refuses 2 Go

    He's Gone in The Swede Heed Bonce Napper

  • Comment number 34.

    ecolizzy #28

    In a former life I used to race pigeons, every year you bred replacements and it would not bother them if you swapped the small squeakers into another nest laid the same time. It was quite useful for breeding extra off your best parents, ( from a future racing prospect though not necessarily the best parents as far as looking after the squeakers ) save two weeks on the nesting cycle.

  • Comment number 35.

    Don't Tell Anyone but The Colon is Wearing The Right kind of Garb/Camo

    He Looks Like He's -hitting Himself

  • Comment number 36.

    Are Euro Politicians Dooing the same thing as The colon

  • Comment number 37.

    "Newspapers."

    The great elephant in the room is the collapse of the education system. The less intelligent you are, the less you appreciate what newspapers offer.

  • Comment number 38.

    Newspapers .. Yes Please, My Eldest Head Down Buried in2 her Comms Device as She Marches Straight in2 traffic, Like Somthing out of A Laural & Hardy Film. (except more Traffic = More Danger)

    A newspaper Between 2 3 And More 2 Read Disect/Take The Mike out of you/me/them/us. Oh What Fun, or by Yourself

    My Preference is The Express My Old Man Read The Scottish Version as was Commanded by Lord Beaverbrook, My Dads Name was Fred .. eh

  • Comment number 39.

    EDGY BUT NOT CUTTING EDGE (#37)

    The BBC has no concept of the true cutting edge of science. New paradigms are out there, but all BBC programmes are set in orthodoxy. Brian - Smiler - Cox is about to prance round our screens again, but he will stay 'inside the box'. Susan causes no tremors in the force. And yet, if you know where to look, and have an appropriate hinterland, the truth is out there - far more enthralling than what is delivered. Science journalists do not have the Feynman Factor, more's the pity.

  • Comment number 40.

    THE EUROPEAN FARCE PERSONIFIED

    What does Baroness Ashton know of FERAL BLOKE GOING ROGUE APE?

    Answers on a flower-brooch. . .

  • Comment number 41.

    Fantastic to see Peter Barron back on Newsnight with Jeremy - and good points raised on personalised news too. We all look at various news outlets (tv/online papers/newspapers etc) and make our own minds up about the issues of the day, and with Google's translation bar, it can be sourced from any language anywhere in the world. I personally prefer online or rolling news which is constantly updated as opposed to something which has been printed (often) the night before. Very interesting debate :o)

  • Comment number 42.

    Call yourselves journalists? You had a story right there in in front of you and chose to ignore it. The Editor of the sanctimonious, finger pointing, holier than thou Guardian was right there and available to be questioned about the Guardian Media Group's gambling on the money markets, hedge fund investments betting against the pound, off-shore accounts and tax evasion. At the very least you could have asked him why he chose to censor Wikileaks when it looked like reflecting badly on his socialist shibboleths and why he fell out with Assange.

  • Comment number 43.

    Further 2 My Last more Newspapers

    Radio Times/Rock Sound

    The Younger Generation Are Kicking Out Some Great Music

    Read Listen 2 What They Think

    What Idiot Said Rock Was Brown Bread

  • Comment number 44.

    #34 So that is why the cuckoo gets away with it brossen, birds are so unintelligent they don't even know it's an alien brood. : )

    But sheep are wiser, shepherds skin the dead lamb don't they, to put the pelt on an orphan lamb so the mother who's lamb has dead accepts it, and I always thought sheep were thick! ; )

  • Comment number 45.

    The press, paper and internet delivery men.

    That was the best discussion I've heard on NN in a long time.
    Even having the editor of the Guardian didn't spoil it any..although he nearly did go into sanctimony mode at one point. I suppose thats a hard habit to break.
    I'm glad the Daily Mail got a mention, because it is a quality Newspaper - unlike the Guardian. The Mail has a big circulation - unlike the Guardian - nor riddle by sanctimonious columnists and reporters - unlike the Guardian. And as pointed out by the man from the Financial times, The Mail has got a massive online readership in the USA...(can you guess where I'm going with this?)
    unlike the Guardian.

    Little factoid for you. The reason the Daily Mail has a big internet readership in the States is because US Talk Radio shows use it as a source of non-left wing reporting, they're tired and critical of their own publications. The Mail is their number one paper for news, they always refer to it. The talk radio shows in the US are predominantly conservative hence the high readership of the Mail on line. Liberal talk radio shows have poor listenership numbers. Liberal talk radio somehow doesn't work over there. And thats why James Naughtie never seeked work in the USA.
    "Hi, this is James Naughtie on KWEL 1070. This morning we're going to discuss how great a job Barak Hussein Obama is doing with the economy...we'll be joined by three tea party activists -who are all packing heat so I'm told - to discuss this and more on KWEL 1070, back after a message from our sponsers."

    He wouldn't last five minutes.

  • Comment number 46.

    news@10 liam fox: it WAS private contractors who charged for these "failed purchases"!!! They also 'promoted' their products. Blaming the "public sector" when it was *MINISTERS* who made those decisions, and private contractors that made these artificially low bids, was a breathtaking piece of misdirection - possible outright lying.

    oooops, sorry "honourable" Minister, i meant "large scale parsimony of honesty". Wouldn't do to break Westminster rules now would it!

    ------------------


    the People of Libya - please do not ask for Western military aid, it will not be used to support the People in what they want, i am sorry to say. That is not because the actual soldiers would not want to though, trust me.


    nice that the existence of the BBC removes the possibility that the Corporate media can force us to buy their pages.


    so on-line Corporate media want to know EXACTLY what we want to read - which articles. They will keep a record of what we have read!

    Whereas with the newspaper they have no idea which ideas are read by us personally. Poor them. Must keep them awake at nights.


    again, glad the BBC keeps them honest, as they just admitted, but it would be nice that we could keep our browsing private from the Govt or Corporates as well. Used to be the Govt had as a role the *defender* of private communications between citizens (that might just be the US though, with their mail coaches, the New World equivalent of our Post Offices), and in some more modern current States, they even have an *obligation* to safeguard Free Speech!!! :O

    shocking, isn't it? But here in the UK we have gotten used to being under constant private and public surveillance, so perhaps we don't care anymore. Some people might not even care their PC/Apple will be locked against watching free on-line media, such as the BBC, whenever the KKKorporates want:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing

    sorry for those who have read it before.



    "high quality news, free at the point of view." - paid by the TV license. Imagine how much higher we would have to pay for their mediocre services if the BBC wasn't forcing them to compete with it on quality? Well worth the fee right there alone.


    PARSIMONIOUS HONESTY FROM THE FT GUY! The BBC was *FORCED* to reduce its on-line content!! It didn't choose it! The BBC is fully aware of the effect and reach of its high Quality services globally, it is the Tory Govt that has been denigrating and slandering it, trying to insinuate that a "publik Survis" can only be inferior to private ones. Its patently false, but it doesn't seem to stop them believing in it. Or appearing to.


    wow, that's cool to learn! The BBC's excellence creates a wider market for on-line media, helping their private 'competitors' as well, as on-line readers jump to other sources to compare stories! The superbness (is that a word?) of the BBC is drawing worldwide subscribers and readers, the BBC should NOT be having its funding cut at a time it is so beneficial to the entire UK media-market, including the private companies!

    The Public Service often creates a backbone that the Private companies feed off, by ending the Public Service many of the Private services relying on it are also bankrupted. Not only does the BBC continue to offer superb services at an extraordinarily low cost, it also helps the other UK Privately-owned media to stay afloat. (btw, the same is also obviously true of the NHS). The destruction of the Public body, either through privatisation or wholesale demolition, would also cause the destruction of whole other swathes of British Industry that relies upon it - causing even further reliance upon the Corporates. Again, this is also true of the other Public Services, even Education.


    anne McElvoy was right, the superb journalism of the BBC helped explain greatly during the current North African revolutions. The debate therefore is about the quality of the reporting and ideas, and it is against the poorer-in-those-respects KKKorporate media (who she works for) that the 'citizen journalist' wins out. No surprise there, as explained above, the Public Sector often gives a superior product on the same income than the Private Sector, given sufficient audience/Citizen participation. In conjunction with "citizen journalism", the BBC can only rise to new heights. In contrast, the corporates dislike citizen journalism, because it prevents their monopolistic tendencies. That came out in the discussion tonight.


    "the excellence of general UK media" - by, i think, anne again. Only one thing to say:

    http://www.medialens.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=234:the-great-betrayal-people-dont-know-and-they-dont-even-know-that-they-dont-know&catid=17:alerts-2003&Itemid=42


    journalism: there is excellence in every field, and Journalism is no exception. But its beneficial to have the citizens being able to compete. The free market of ideas works better, just like in Science, and other fields.


    the real problem is that there needs to be an organisation that can afford to send accurate researchers/investigators/reporters to active items, such as Egypt or New Zealand.

    Citizen Journalism is often at its best close to home, but then validity needs to be checked more as well. That means, don't believe everything you read on the web. And discussion of WHAT is reported can clearly be global. There is still a need for qualified teaching courses in Journalism, up to the highest level, and the People should be able to look up to journalists in the same way we can all* run, not all of us are Olympic runners or coaches.

    *yes, i know.



    nor we can trust the traditional journalists on 'morality', considering how so VERY few journalists spoke out against the Iraq war and researched the facts behind the front-page stores.

    listening to those guys from the private sector, i am SO GLAD that the BBC exists, and we can use them freely, without the constant desire to "control" us to maximise their profits, or "**advertising REVENUE** [money eyes]" be so important in the media i watch. The BBC may 'advertise', but its generally for other programmes i wouldn't mind watching/learning about anyway. Listening to their Corporate greed, there is *nothing* those people wouldn't do to "increase profits" - except, it seems, raise standards.


    Yes, the people in the BBC have agendas, they're people like everyone else, But at least their agenda is not to [bleep] us out of every penny they can. I'd prefer to be in an NHS hospital that receives the income that most 'private' hospitals do, and are concerned about the care for the People, as far as the politicians let them, rather than a corporate Private hospital that just cared about its profit margins, ultimately. The same goes for the BBC. And tonight i thought the ex-General Director of the BBC made the best points in the debate.


    says it all really. Another excellent and thought-provoking show from NewsNight, i thought. =)

  • Comment number 47.

    #45: kevsey, do you think the Mail's new on-line readers (its potential subscribers), or causing the editor/owner to swerve the stories in a way that will appeal to right-wing conservative Americans??

    do you not wonder what effect those kind of stories are having back here in the UK where we HAVE to integrate, not some Dallas hell-hole where .2% of the population are Muslim??

    dear god, if the Mail editors/owners had any sense at all, they would split the Mail into two, have a US aimed on-line version with their Islamophobic writers on it to please the audience, and a largely saner bunch of writers for the UK, - printed-newspaper readers, who want a sane, calm and peaceful resolution to the problems the UK is facing.

    we have no need to globalise bigotry and overt hypocrisy. Imho.

    it is quite funny that the Mail's 'natural' target turns out to be a bunch of foreigners though, isn't it? :D


    kevsey: some years ago, the right-wing Christian groups gained economic control over virtually ALL of local radio stations. It is hardly surprising that liberal jocks fail in the US. As we saw on News@10 tonight, there ARE liberal groups in the US fighting for their basic civil rights, even occupying a senate building!

    the US is not as extreme-right as we have been led to believe, at least the People are not.


    "There are lies, damned lies, and then statistics."

  • Comment number 48.

    on Afghanistan: if our troops served a *purpose* to the Afghans apart from enforcing the rule of a corrupt Dictatorship, they would be more likely to be accepted by the locals - much more likely to come home alive.

    why are we not "winning the Afghan hearts and minds"?

  • Comment number 49.

    WHAT IS SUPERB ABOUT REPORTING THAT PUTS ART BEFORE SUBSTANCE? (#46)

    You are using a lot of superlatives Mork - are you in coalition with 76?

    We have larger-than-life studio distraction, gratuitous bullying, every kind of visual trickery (especially the movie within the still, standing in the rain outside somewhere and the walk-then-stop towards the camera; all detracting rather than adding to the 'journalism'.

    Now that the BBC is party to deeply unpleasant 'entertainment' (presumably for ratings) I suppose it is predictable that output must degrade across the range?

    I am not implying that it is in any way near as bad as some, but 'superlative' it isn't - and the trend is down.

  • Comment number 50.

    WHY ARE WE NOT WINNING AFGHAN HEARTS AND MINDS? (#48)

    You can not be serious man! Translate this into Farsi and Pashto:

    . . . we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, . . .

    Nuff sed.



  • Comment number 51.

    Claire Maguire on Breakfast What A Voice

    DIY piece of Cake Maybe

    A Good Brickie Plumber Plastered Roofer Sparky Gardener Etc is worth more 2 me than a politician/lawyer etc ever could be

  • Comment number 52.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 53.

    The BackStabbers

    Four Man Combo from The States, Motown Chartbuster Circa Early 70's

    Look no further than nulabour

    ed sillyband and his Bro, Dig Deeper/Furher Backstab it Gets Worse

  • Comment number 54.

    News Pride and Prejudice

    bbc is not free. it should be behind a licence fee wall. why isn't it?

    Quality Journalism.

    where is it? is it in the bbc promoting climate change? The Daily Mail and the immigration debate? Pumping up the war on terror? Where where where?

    the best place to get news about the uk is from the foreign press.

    the only news i buy is private eye. cause it has more revealing stories. most current media is sexed up press release , reporting what is on twitter or what colour some celeb is painting their toilet. why pay for that trash that a 100 other outlets are also pumping out?

    people would pay for timely specialist news [e.g financial] and investigative journalism. start a mag called the Investigator and report the stories people will attack you for, burgle your offices for and slap gagging orders.

    unless journalists are in fear of their lives or being hassled some other way they are probably not doing their job?

    given who seems to get jobs/columns on papers that seems back scratching unlikely? Nepotismtastic.

  • Comment number 55.

    Private Eye Parts

    No Eye Did Not Mention VIS Detective Vicar Sargent ConStable

    These Days Everybody Is Frightened of Sue

    Not Me Souper Wonderfull Smashin

  • Comment number 56.

    #37

    There is something imbedded in your simple statement there StsC. MY thought processes from a similar starting point – that there will always be horses for course. Let’s not forget that the written ’professional’ media output, where, we are assured, there are excellent journalists seeking and writing the truth – yeah, convince me Jeremy – also comprises the Sun, the NofW, the DM and other ‘rags’ just as much as they include The FT, The Economist and the Guardian.

    And they (the daily red tops) have a market. People still wants t**s with their bacon butties, ‘shock, horror, probe’ headlines to react to on their tea break, sleb gossip, human interest, lots of pictures and one sided opinions that concur with theirs. All newspapers are partisan and prejudice. You only notice it when it is of the opposite persuasion to yourself.

    Sadly, as I have got older, perhaps wiser and more analytical I notice a severe downtrend in quality of content and presentation in them all. I can talk. I have not taken a daily paper since I last worked a regular office job sometime in the dark ages. And now I am likely to light the fire with waste unread swathes of the Sunday’s. I am seriously considering subscribing to ‘This Week’.

    Surely, the biggest potential problem with the possibility of losing all paid for ‘quality’ (and I use the phrase advisedly) journalism in favour??? of amateur and citizen journalism is of being ‘knee deep in a river, and dying of thirst’. In the strictest sense of ‘gathering, editing and reporting, of news...... it loosely fulfils the term of journalism. But it is surely much more restrictive and open to abuse and manipulation than even the worst that the professionals can and do promulgate.

    Citizen journalism in all its positive and negative aspects was illustrated last night in a matter of a few seconds, by the lady on camera protesting against Libya in London. In a moment on air she was able to illustrate the very here and now, the moment, the feelings of a relatively few people and from a very simplistic stand point. Quote: "It's all about oil!" Where Citizen/amateur journalism may well fall down, is that if too immediate and personal there will no balance, no historical placement of events, no backdrop or depth. That can be dangerous.

    Btw. I thought Anne McElvoy’s thesis was lightweight, imbalanced, incomplete.......

    I think we probably have to accept and embrace the additional levels of input afforded by our increasingly instant global communications networks (I do not tweet or book faces) as progress. They may well be a link to the future in their ability to engage those not interested in the more regular written medium - but they cannot surely replace the in depth, well researched, balances and focused nature of output via more ‘professional journalists’. Who was it who once said ‘If you pay peanuts, you will get monkeys’? Perhaps we need to pay more and regulate the quality of output.


    Oh, and finally......

    And why did no one, in their defence of the printed word, offer up the horrendous quality of the ‘print’ . Years of tube commuting left me filthy from the dark suited gent’s papers flopping over me – You can’t read a newspaper wearing pale clothes.

  • Comment number 57.

    Over-sensitivitiesRUS.

    I can probably guess what innocuous comment bothers them, so, let's try.... Part the First

    #37
    There is something imbedded in your simple statement there StsC. MY thought processes from a similar starting point – that there will always be horses for course. Let’s not forget that the written ’professional’ media output, where, we are assured, there are excellent journalists seeking and writing the truth – yeah, convince me Jeremy – also comprises the Sun, the NofW, the DM and other ‘rags’ just as much as they include The FT, The Economist and the Guardian.

    And they (the daily red tops) have a market. People still want mammary glands with their bacon butties, ‘shock, horror, probe’ headlines to react to on their tea break, sleb gossip, human interest, lots of pictures and one sided opinions that concur with theirs. All newspapers are partisan and prejudice. You only notice it when it is of the opposite persuasion to yourself.

    Sadly, as I have got older, perhaps wiser and more analytical I notice a severe downtrend in quality of content and presentation in them all. I can talk. I have not taken a daily paper since I last worked a regular office job sometime in the dark ages. And now I am likely to light the fire with waste unread swathes of the Sunday’s. I am seriously considering subscribing to ‘This Week’.

    Surely, the biggest potential problem with the possibility of losing all paid for ‘quality’ (and I use the phrase advisedly) journalism in favour??? of amateur and citizen journalism is of being ‘knee deep in a river, and dying of thirst’. In the strictest sense of ‘gathering, editing and reporting, of news...... it loosely fulfils the term of journalism. But it is surely much more restrictive and open to abuse and manipulation than even the worst that the professionals can and promulgate.


    tbc.....

  • Comment number 58.

    OK....Part the second


    Citizen journalism in all its positive and negative aspects was shown last night by one of the ‘citizen’ participants on camera protesting against Libya in London. In a moment of on camera time it illustrated the very here and now, the moment, the feelings of a relatively few people and a very simplistic stand point. Where Citizen/amateur journalism may well fall down, is that if too immediate and personal there will no balance, no historical placement of events, no backdrop or depth. That can be dangerous.

    Btw. I thought Anne McElvoy’s thesis was lightweight, imbalanced, incomplete.......

    I think we probably have to accept and embrace the additional levels of input afforded by our increasingly instant global communications networks (I do not tweet or book faces) as progress. They may well be a link to the future in their ability to engage those not interested in the more regular written medium - but they cannot surely replace the in depth, well researched, balances and focused nature of output via more ‘professional journalists’. Who was it who once said ‘If you pay peanuts, you will get monkeys’? Perhaps we need to pay more and regulate the quality of output.


    Oh, and finally......

    And why did no one, in their defence of the printed word, offer up the horrendous quality of the ‘print’ . Years of tube commuting left me filthy from the dark suited gent’s papers flopping over me – You can’t read a newspaper wearing pale clothes.

  • Comment number 59.

    actually, just want to add: the Grunadian guy last night was pretty good, as was the Harper-Collins publisher on last week's QT. Despite being called a "Murdoch creature" by Dimbleby. :)


    #49: "76"?


    #50: the Afghans originally welcomed our troops as liberators from the Taliban. he Taliban were so awful, it took even the Americans, with their random and un-apologised-for bombings of wedding parties etc, never-ending curfews, support for openly corrupt dictators, and just general ignorance and arrogance, YEARS to turn the population against them.

    but they achieved it.

    and we're in the hair-sight as well.

    but we do not have to be. We need to find a way, a *political* settlement that means at least OUR troops are not seen as useless aggressors by the Afghan people. Else, sooner or later, when this uprising against dictators reaches that part of Asia...

    the utter incompetents who have started this war, sent British troops there, and in almost TEN YEARS have not managed to end the quagmire, are worthless scum who should probably spend a year in prison for every British life lost in this 'War on Terror'.

    there are ways out of this, without catastrophe. Unfortunately, that bunch are NOT in prison, they are still running the country.


    #54 Jaunty: the BBC *is* behind a pay-wall. It is impossible to watch normal BBC programs, such as BBC1 or BBC2, abroad. It is impossible to watch Newsnight or QT on iPlayer abroad. Personally, i think the BBC is missing a possibility - promote its OWN products, boxed sets etc, whilst offering these programs for overseas viewers.

    plus, text-based news, the BBC stock, require very little bandwidth, and most certainly shouldn't become pay-only. The incredible influence the UK gets around the world from the high quality of the reporting sets the UK head and shoulders above other nations in this area. I think the only people who would really like such a pay-wall, are the Murdochs, and the other idiot KKKorporate brands, who cannot see past their own nose.


    i'm proud to be of the Nation that produces the BBC. Pity the Tories are not.

  • Comment number 60.

    NOT IN PRISON - RUNNING THE COUNTRY (#59)

    I think you will find one miscreant is RUNNING THE WORLD.

  • Comment number 61.

    #60 good song by Jarvis that, isn't it?

  • Comment number 62.

    AND NO BIRDS SANG. (#61)

    The Devil has all the good tunes Mork.

 

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