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Tuesday 12 October 2010

Verity Murphy | 11:58 UK time, Tuesday, 12 October 2010

Tonight we place the future of higher education in the spotlight.

Business Secretary Vince Cable has given his approval to Lord Browne's report which would allow an unlimited rise in tuition fees in England's universities, describing the proposals as "fair and affordable".

And the government is considering asking all but the poorest graduates in England to pay a "market" rate of interest on their student loans, instead of the low interest rate which they currently pay.

We will discuss what such changes would mean and how they are likely to alter the whole landscape of the university experience with the Universities Minister David Willetts and higher education stakeholders including students, university vice-chancellors and academics.

Our Economics editor Paul Mason will be crunching the numbers on the plan to scrap the current £3,290 fees cap and replace it with a free market.

And Political editor Michael Crick will be totting up which coalition MPs are likely to back the changes, and which not.

We also have an extraordinary film in which Paul Mason revisits Gary, Indiana to report on how the poorest city in America missed out on the money and the jobs, and why it is a symbol of the intractable problems gripping the world's biggest economy. Read more here.

And we will be speaking to the Man Booker winner just after the announcement about who has won the prestigious literary prize.

Join Jeremy at 10.30pm on BBC Two.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From earlier:

Tonight, we have an extraordinary film in which Paul Mason revisits Gary, Indiana to report on how the poorest city in America missed out on the money and the jobs, and why it is a symbol of the intractable problems gripping the world's biggest economy.

We are currently looking into the BSkyB story after a number of the UK's leading news providers sent a letter to Vince Cable asking the government to block Rupert Murdoch- controlled News Corp's bid to take over the rest of British Sky Broadcasting Group Plc, saying it harms the public interest.

And we are poring over the detail of the Lord Browne's review of university funding, in which he has called for the £3,290 cap on fees, which students borrow in loans, to be scrapped.

More details later.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    ..
    China defends its currency stance

    ..Top leaders including Premier Wen Jiabao told European legislators last week that such an increase would destroy Chinese firms and lead to social upheaval by triggering widespread unemployment...

    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/china-defends-its-currency-stance-20101012-16hkz.html

    Yep. Its called the market. its called rebalancing the global economy. the jobs would come back here. so its the usual two fingers. China will never let what is happening to us happen to them. Its just our incompetents of the political class believe its 'market forces' so go along with it. Is theft 'market forces'? Do one passively sit and let people rob you? The UK govt does as it over watches the increasing poverty of the British people oblivious as to why its happening.

  • Comment number 2.

    "Tonight, we have an extraordinary film in which Paul Mason revisits Gary, Indiana to report on how the poorest city in America missed out on the money and the jobs, and why it is a symbol of the intractable problems gripping the world's biggest economy.

    Wasn't this raised by some of your commentators years ago? Maybe the BBC editors thought it written by people who were "'inadequate, pimpled and single'". Maybe if it had been said by a Hollywood movie star it would have had more credibility?

    http://www.ets.org/perfect_storm

    It is a good movie. It's had a makeover from the original released in Spring 2007, but it's still not Box Office material. Just true. Still truth is not de rigueur is it?

  • Comment number 3.









    Sometimes you get it right and sometimes you get it wrong!


    Once upon a time ....


    At 5:57pm on 24 Sep 2010, JAperson

    Making comment about the -then- forthcoming Labour leadership result I said .....

    One thing is pretty certain .... Hum Ho! .... more - of that dreaded word - tokenism. Surely getting on to the ballot sheet was nothing more than blatant PC-ness and, little doubt, that when it comes to shuffling the ‘shadow’ cabinet the ‘reward’ for being such a worthy - and pleasant - adversary will be a place at the ‘top table’ thereby proudly displaying, nay shouting, more “PC-ness” tokenism!


    And then ....

    18. At 6:03pm on 08 Oct 2010, JAperson

    Passing comment I said that .....


    “The Abbess’ didn’t make it to the final 19, perhaps the PLP is finally getting the idea?

    But wait! .... Co-opted members!

    Is still a chance!




    Eight women got elected to the PLP’s statutory nineteen plus shadow cabinet posts. It might have been held at the required sic six but the ‘registered’ voters felt these eight were the pick of the crop. Consequently this left the only channel to the top table as being thru’ the co-opted route.

    And so it was to be.

    Fifteen more places behind the nineteenth filled slot, and behind five other women, “The Abbess” gets appointed to the ruling sic elite sic!

    Why?

    Was the election of the ‘eloquent’ eight not properly representative? Would Mr Kahn have felt unduly isolated? ( Doubted, as he seems quite comfortable!) Or is it just that it is entirely necessary to include someone whom does not cover their mouth when coughing just so as to get ‘broad representation? i.e. speaking for the coughing classes!

    Or was there some other reason?

    “The Abbess" didn’t get enough ‘genuine’ votes to get on the leadership ballot sheet but she got there. She didn’t get enough votes to make it to the ‘sh-abinet’ but she still got there !

    Just what it that makes this women so desired?

    Got it!

    She needs extra income to pay school fees!


    I had hoped that I was wrong that she would make the ‘sh-abinet’ but I was right.

    I had hoped that I was right that the PLP had dropped the PC yoke but I was wrong!

    Oh well!


    Mind! There may be one good thing to come from all this! She may well be too busy to appear on a late night political commentary programme!

    Hooray!

    The End.

    Not!



    And ...

    Oh yes!

    Following many years of not having extensive and detailed training to become a diagnostician I feel required to observe that there does appear to be a problem evolving with an increased number of HM Coalition members. In-as-much-as many appear to be developing a well known condition which is technically known as “Limited Intelligence and Responsibilities Syndrome”.

    This is undeniably an ailment of concern to all and has a very high likelihood of becoming a major pandemic. Therefore it is most likely that it’s consequences will be discussed many times in the media in the future!

    Perhaps Newsnight might even be tempted to do a ‘special’ with a real, genuine, live pre-recorded audience!

    (Yes! Seriously! It really could even be highbrow enough for Nn! .... No kidding! )

    Should this be the case - and so that it is clear what Nn is reporting - it must surely be requested that the Nn team use this condition’s full acronym?

    N’est pas?


  • Comment number 4.

    3. At 3:50pm on 12 Oct 2010, JAperson wrote:

    "Eight women got elected to the PLP’s statutory nineteen plus shadow cabinet posts. It might have been held at the required sic six but the ‘registered’ voters felt these eight were the pick of the crop. Consequently this left the only channel to the top table as being thru’ the co-opted route"

    Think about this from another perspective and see how it works.

    If you didn't want an effective/credible socialist/Fabian party in this country, how would you go about achieving that? I suggest what you would do is pretty much what you describe. Lots of equalities and other prima facie odd legislation which would ensure that it never worked, and made the pubic sector inefficient whilst making the public very irritated.

    You could even have an Expenses Scandal. You would just need to have some very willing accomplices who believed in some really impossible dreams or were oblivious to what was really going on in order to carry it off. Tell me it doesn't fit the data as well as any other theory?

    Some people will do anything for attention/a living.

    Listen carefully to Vince Cable berating New Labour for their track record in letting PRIVATE debt getting out of hand.

    Stop a moment to think as he then goes on to assert tat this means that each householder is more in debt than any other country in Europe.

    Now, what has he done?

    What he seems to have done is masterly blurred private commercial debt with private domestic debt.

    What we have seen is massive growth of Private Sector i.e.
    commercial/business debt since the 90s (and especially since deregulation at the end of the 90s).

    But, the number of householders in the UK is only about 14 million, and even if the average
    house price
    was as high as £200,000 (double it for interest over 25
    years) that could not account for all the debt, which is, if one just thinks about it, business debt. There always have been mortgages (and business debts), but is it private housing debt that is out of control or is it commercial and other business expansion debt?

    I am just making a conjecture here, but the conjecture is that the British public is being misled. The conjecture is that they are being misled into believing that the debt is their personal domestic debt when in fact it is probably largely highly geared BUSINESS/COMMERCIAL private debt, much of it being financial services (banking) debt as bad loans base don too little capitalization. Banks are in the PRIVATE sector remember, as are all business. Most of the public sector (e.g British Leyland, British Rail, Airways, Gas, Telecom, Nuclear Fuels, it goes on and on) was privatised years ago. So where is the debt likely to be?

    I suspect what credible face Vince wants the public to do is to bail out the PRIVATE sector debt by sacrificing their PUBLIC sector once the Comprehensive Spending Review is published.

    Please look into the figures and by all means falsify this conjecture, bearing in mind that the Lib-Dems (like the Conservatives) are Libertarians (anarchists) not statists. The Con-Dem track record will be one of further asset stripping the state I predict.


    I have little doubt that governance in the UK has been under attack for a few decades now. I'm just now sure what the end game is, or even if there is one..

  • Comment number 5.

    #4

    'the game? what game? the one played by the clowns?

  • Comment number 6.

    #5 addendum.

    There are realisable dreams and there are dreams that fall by the wayside. It's as true as the existence of day and night, since time immemorial.

  • Comment number 7.



    Response to ....

    4. At 4:41pm on 12 Oct 2010, tabblenabble01 wrote:

    Point(s) taken.

    Dare I suggest that you are as clear as I am as to where it's all going i.e. "A return to victorian values." aka the 'big society' aka 'masters and minions' aka 'the haves and the 'we will only let them have what we want them to have' ' which of course is all in the National Interest!

    As I said some while back 'immigration is 21st century slavery' to which I will add .....

    And that suits the architects of 'their' big society down to the ground!

    But it doesn't suit me!

  • Comment number 8.

    appendum to my no 4 above -

    For householders read home-owners.

    "Tonight we place the future of higher education in the spotlight" .
    Higher Education in this country (like the USA) has ceased to be what it was thirty or forty years ago. It used to be the brightest and the best, now it's nearly half the population. Most of the courses are now nothing like they once were, and teaching is highly unrewarding. In now way could the state afford to pay for half the population. Not only do most think they are entitled to be told things for nothing, but they don't grasp it anyway, and the majority have no idea of their proper place in the Normal Distribution anymore. Making them pay for an education might teach some of them to value it, and reduce the number wasting everyone else's time too.

    We've been well and truly demographically 'bombed'.

  • Comment number 9.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 10.

    I'M FUZZY ABOUT THE WHOLE DEGREE THING.

    I was totally unsuited to FORMAL education - I learned 'by default' up to Ordinary National Certificate. In all my jobs, and ultimately in my own business, my natural grasp of physical Chemistry, and application of same, was competitive with the best in the field. We survived 35 years and sold up. I hired a dyslexic bloke without a certificate to his name. His natural ability to organise the entire range of functions, pertaining to the practical side of our business, could not have been bettered. My brother, an early-retired Electronics graduate, taught himself company accounting (tax, PAYE, VAT etc) and would spot the auditor's errors. We weathered three recessions and in latter years traded without an overdraft ('in the black').

    I suggest companies should hire those who have relevant aptitude and appropriate attitude. (This would, of course, require COMPETENT MANAGEMENT!) Modern aids to knowledge-accumulation will enable the grafting of further add-ons (apps?) to motivated employees. The best university is life?

  • Comment number 11.

    IS 'SCHOOLING TO EDUCATE' AS 'SO LAST CENTURY' 'AS TRIDENT TO DEFEND'?

    This is just a tiny part of the overall question WHAT ARE WE, ULTIMATELY, TRYING TO ACHIEVE?

    To spell it out: recent revolutionary advances in means-of-presentation/communication, OFFER opportunity for a fundmantal re-work of 'competence-acquisition' across the entire spectrum of disciplines. However, such is the hold of tradition (gowns, mortar boards, rag-days et al) that academia - the ones who (half) grow up to make the rules, hangs on to the old ways.

    None so blind . . .

  • Comment number 12.

    Metropolitan police prefer to live together in out of city 'ghettos' for their own protection. Probably one of the few groups left with any grasp of and /respect for the law?

    Any guesses why that might be given the demographic changes in London?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11527672

  • Comment number 13.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 14.

  • Comment number 15.

    ANTS?! (#14)

    Going a bit far back DJ! Does that permit me to raise 'pants' and man's acquisition of fire? (I always seem to get back to Tony!)

  • Comment number 16.

    if nothing else, the visuals of Paul Mason's report from Indiana were a powerful reminder of how deeply ingrained the racial divisions in the US of A remain. shameful, really.

  • Comment number 17.

    :o) A HUGE congrats to Howard Jacobson for winning The Booker Prize tonight!
    Pity we don't have Philip Green running the country...
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1319615/Sir-Philip-Green-Topshop-boss-uncovers-governments-staggering-waste-millions.html

    Excellent debate on the proposed university tuition fee hikes as all sides were discussed. Very interesting report by Paul too.

  • Comment number 18.

    AT THE RISK OF BEING CONTENTIOUS (#16)

    Isn't the greater - all embracing - shame, that in the current PC madness, we will not, indeed MAY NOT, admit that DIFFERENCISM (of which racism/ethnicism is a part) is natural?

    I challenge you to self-inspect, and find no hint of preference, choice, discrimination, favouritism, avoidance etc. I suspect we are nearer to DJ ants than to any enlightened ape who is devoid of DIFFERENCISM.

    Mother Nature leads us to marry (pair with) a face VERY SIMILAR to our own. I find it unlikely that she has, at the same time, endowed us with equanimity in the face of (no pun) great difference. If it is to come about it will take a long time. (And short, ugly, ginger guys, with a wall eye, will still have no luck.)

  • Comment number 19.

    WANNABE SCHOOLMISTRESS? PASSMARK 76 (#17)

    Hi 76. I am nightly intrigued by your 'marking' of Newsnight's classwork.
    Have you always longed to be a school teacher?

    In passing, do you think you marking might be a bit generous? Any chance you might give Jeremy detention some time? He CAN be a very naughty boy.

    Excellent post. Merit Star. * (Mine - that is. (:o)

  • Comment number 20.

    That decent note Mr Mason from that sad old abandoned piano was an F sharp. Just thought you'd like to know..I could be wrong though, go ask the producer to check.

    The stimulas was pointless, unless that is, you need a new cop mobile machine or your a Mayor who needs some paving doing. It's a a pity that this report was slanted (ever so slightly) against the teaparty Republos. Still credit where credit is due, Paul done well to come out alive and without no bullet wound scars to sing about...respect paul, the Newsnight homeboy goes in deep in Republican white middle class territory...just watch out for a man called Beck.


    Are we all ready for the October surprise? ..well we should all be, thanks to the news media industrial complex..watch this space as they say, eh

    P:S it was an F sharp, no need to disturb the Producer, he's got a game to finish.

  • Comment number 21.

    Chinese warplanes make Mid East debut in Turkey and Iran
    http://www.debka.com/article/9078/

  • Comment number 22.

    barriesingleton #18.

    "Mother Nature leads us to marry (pair with) a face VERY SIMILAR to our own."

    two eyes, two ears, nose and a mouth -- seems to me that the colour of the skin (or even the epicanthic fold) do not make us dissimilar.

    "I challenge you to self-inspect, and find no hint of preference, choice, discrimination, favouritism, avoidance etc."

    sure, but introspection and overcoming prejudice is possible, do you not agree?

  • Comment number 23.

    #12

    Are you one of them, do you 'consider' yourself to be one of them or have you got 'powerful linx' to them? The question boils down really to 'are you hiding for your own protection' asking others out there /or here/ to speak on your behalf? Have you done and are still doing that's not quite decent? Is it why you are scared and yet can't help yourself?

  • Comment number 24.

    #15

    I'm not sure whether playing with fire is to be recommended, singie. I wouuldn't, if I were you.

  • Comment number 25.

    #19

    'naughty' yet manly as opposed to 'naughty ants' all over the place running like headless chickens?

  • Comment number 26.

    #20

    so have I, kev, a 'game' to finish

  • Comment number 27.

    If ever there was a reason for an overhaul of Britain's education system, it is the inability of every student, on Channel 4 News and Newsnight, today, to string-together a single, coherent argument, wrapped in a well-constructed, complete sentence.

  • Comment number 28.

  • Comment number 29.

    IF YOU WANT TO KNOW THE TIME - READ A CLOCK FACE (#22)

    You probably missed my post, a while back, regarding a brown, 5 year old, boy of my acquaintance, who has a white dad. The lad is very eloquent.

    One swallow doesn't make indigestion, but it can stick on your throat.

    Neither of us can change what has been enacted (with unseemly haste?) on this planet, through the unrestrained cleverness of man. Time will tell if either of us has a valid point.

  • Comment number 30.

    I wonder whether per chance 'the ants' do wear bright pants
    Or will they forever remain silly old rats,
    Claiming to be making for this planet valid points
    Or will they forever remain nothing but idiots?

    mim

  • Comment number 31.

    barriesingleton #29.

    "You probably missed my post, a while back.."

    yes, haven't been following the NN blog for a while, perhaps you could post a link? (intrigued by the disappointment you allude to)

    re "the unrestrained cleverness of man". it does make me feel, increasingly, as though travelling to a Swiss clinic would be the sanest option remaining.

  • Comment number 32.

  • Comment number 33.

    #32

    Why not 11, 'mademoiselle'? Are you in or dreaming of Paris tonight??

    I bet you are as French and a female as I am Rolf Harris.

  • Comment number 34.

    Pieces of furniture can't run

    A perfect storm planned he
    But I wasn't going to flee
    And I wasn't going to sway
    Having worked at my own fairy tale way

    mim

  • Comment number 35.

    :p Now outsourcing is the topic in The Simpsons
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX1iplQQJTo&feature=player_embedded

  • Comment number 36.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/8060244/How-to-make-immigration-work-in-Britains-interests.html

    Now why do we treat our citizens with such destain that we import millions of foreign workers?

    When you regarde the french look at the solidarity amongst their people, millions out peacefully demonstrating against a higher retirement age. How funny that they don't want it to go to 62, when we will be going to 66 and shortly 70 I suspect. And yet we can't muster one demonstration against mass immigration, and loss of our jobs. We have been completely divided and ruled have we not?

  • Comment number 37.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1320031/92-million-The-population-crowded-Britain-century-mass-migration.html

    And this is how our country is being degraded...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1320046/Pregnant-12-year-old-Roma-raid-Six-arrests-child-trafficking-ring-smashed.html

    We once read of these problems in other countries now they are in Britain, and we are paying a very high price in the degradation of our society, and it must be costing us a fortune in prosecuting and supporting people from across the world.

  • Comment number 38.

    WATCHES OF THE NIGHT? (#31)

    Hi jr4412. It is a sobering thought that the German's invented the Cuckoo Clock but the Swiss commercialised it. How's that for Black (Forest) humour? In part, this was the post (Oct 09):

    "The human race is divided into sub types - great visible difference is apparent. I assert difference disturbs animals. Has anyone dared to look into the effect on a child of having radically different coloured parents? Further, have they dared to look at ALL THE permutations?

    I have been informed, by a grandmother, of very telling words from her 4 year old grandson, in just such a situation.

    I doubt the long isolation, of different ethnic types, that engendered the colours, did not also cause an acute awareness of difference that INTERFERES WITH IDENTIFICATION OF CHILD WITH its SAME-XES PARENT. Strategies then set in train to cope, might lead anywhere. To my certain knowledge, we humans MASK Autism and Cerebral Palsy (and no doubt a lot more) in their milder forms. But masking takes its toll.

    Nothing in nature prepares us for rapid ethnic mixing on a grand scale. The inherent perversity of endemic immaturity, of which PC is just one manifestation, just makes things worse."


    To avoid annoying other posters, I leave it at that. My email address is easy to find.

  • Comment number 39.

    @ Ecolizzy #36 - Have you noticed that practically ALL demonstrations in this country always have an element of violence in them? Whether they are "hired" to cause pandemonium or they are just those on ASBOs, regular people are too scared to go out an demonstrate.


    Another reason why Britain should get out of the EU....
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1320007/Hundreds-foreign-GPs-work-Britain-unchecked-NHS-chiefs-criticised-testing-EU-doctors.html

  • Comment number 40.

    My poems would be better in green ink
    that way they could really stink
    I'm super proud to churn out such rot
    I'm a genius in my art of grot.

    Just when you think there is no more
    I'll spam the boards like a bore
    bringing through threads from other days
    because no one is to ignore my ways.


  • Comment number 41.

    TRUTH WITHOUT RECONCILIATION (#35 link))

    Required viewing 76 - Bravo!

    Has Destiny Dave co-opted any satirists into the Cabinet? They are the modern sooth-sayers. (I acknowledge Warsi is a joke - but that is different.)

    Weep world.

  • Comment number 42.

    And even more of the stuff we have to put up with, and not complain about, mainly because we haven't a clue how we're exploited....

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8059621/Hundreds-of-foreign-doctors-not-checked.html

    Barrie and I have experienced the rise of Manglish.

  • Comment number 43.

    #36

    There is a lot of smoke in the streets of France, Ecolizzy, and that's not from people having a cigarette. Why kidding yourself?

  • Comment number 44.

    #38

    Masking and HIDING do take their hold, easy to find singie.

  • Comment number 45.

    #40

    oh, really?

  • Comment number 46.

    "15. At 10:32pm on 12 Oct 2010, barriesingleton wrote:
    ANTS?! (#14)

    Going a bit far back DJ! Does that permit me to raise 'pants' and man's acquisition of fire? (I always seem to get back to Tony!)"

    Humans are bigger and have larger nerve-nets, but the basic principles of behaviour are essentially the same in that behaviours are emitted and selected by their consequences (mostly without conscious awareness). The complexity gives the appearance of intention, but even most of that's post-hoc rationalisation which is superstitious nonsense.

    You traffic in intentional verbs all the time without knowing that, or that true professionals don't. You have been told that but you ignore it.
    Which is not surprising. It's a subtle point which requires very close attention to language (but not to spelling and style etc).

  • Comment number 47.

    "22. At 11:54pm on 12 Oct 2010, jr4412 wrote:

    two eyes, two ears, nose and a mouth -- seems to me that the colour of the skin (or even the epicanthic fold) do not make us dissimilar."

    Only if you close your eyes to discrimination, which is pretty much the same thing as intentionally making oneself stupid surely?

    "I challenge you to self-inspect, and find no hint of preference, choice, discrimination, favouritism, avoidance etc."

    "sure, but introspection and overcoming prejudice is possible, do you not agree?

    Only if someone's pernicious objective was to render you, and others like you behave stupidly perhaps? Now, who might possibly benefit from such a mischievous act? When did they do so and what evidence can you find for that?

    Phenotypes are there for a function. Some are used for sexual selection (assortive mating).

  • Comment number 48.

    "FIRST DUTY OF GOVERNMENT IS TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE" (#42)

    Our chosen ones trot this out repeatedly - to them it means inviting mercenary adventurers to go and take pot-shots at Johnnie Foreigner (aka Extreme Paintballing) lest JF appears in the high-street! Er - hello?

    Our cipher politicians seem blind to the danger of declining mental health - both individually (including returned heroes, and PMs) and collectively. Almost ANY 'service' is now staffed by 'them' as opposed to 'us', yet a service is, in its role of supporting the people, only one short of PROTECTING THE PEOPLE!

    Joined up governance eh? Enough to make a chap join up.

  • Comment number 49.

    tabblenabble01 #47.

    "Only if ... Only if someone's pernicious objective was to render you, and others like you behave stupidly perhaps? Now, who might possibly benefit from such a mischievous act? When did they do so and what evidence can you find for that?"

    vague hogwash, bet your school report card frequently read "could do better".

  • Comment number 50.

    This sort of funding universities is a 20th century model. Anyone paying big fees is paying a stupidity tax. You can do a 3 month plumbing course for a lot less.

    Any course that is book based [english lit, history, maths etc] can be done online.

    Willis seemed a bit shocked when JP suggested he was also among those so poor they needed a grant and so went to uni for 'free' :) Free mainly went to people like farmers kids etc. most people had to pay something.


    The Ruins

    Gary is better off than many places in the uk in terms of police presence. 7 police cars in 5 mins? Luxury!

  • Comment number 51.

    #46

    Alas, some 'true professionals' are delusional

  • Comment number 52.

    A CLEVER MAN, WHO ONLY ASKS QUESTIONS, FEARS BOTH LOSS AND ERROR (#49)

    Ah so!

    A clever man who is prepared to be shown his error, gains doubly, and nothing is lost.

    When a clever man clasps his cleverness, as a miser clasping gold, ultimately, ALL is lost.


  • Comment number 53.

    49. At 12:20pm on 13 Oct 2010, jr4412 wrote:

    "vague hogwash, bet your school report card frequently read "could do better".

    Vague to you because you fail to discriminate and/or grasp perhaps?

    You think it's hogwash that discrimination lies at the heart of intelligence testing? Discrimination learning is the basis of all scientific advancement, of all intelligence behaviour.

    I'm helping you out here. You appear to have been taken in (along with many others - big time). or, if you are a member of a non-white (minority, as there are white minorities too) group, it may well be to your advantage to carry on reinforcing your message. If, on the other hand,.you are a member of the majority white group (which is male, straight and non Jewish etc), it's very much to your disadvantage to carry on doing so. This is Political Liberalism at work, (see John Rawls' 'Difference Principle', fairness etc, and how he was overseen by Burton Dreben).

    Might you be wrong about the report card conjecture too?

  • Comment number 54.

    I hope everyone was paying attention to Paxman's introduction to the HE fees piece last night. HE entry has risen from 3% to nearly 50% of the population in just over a generation. That means a massive drop in standards. What purpose does that serve other than to sabotage and privatise a once great public sector institution?

    Demographic warfare and politics is a highly destructive business. The scale of what you are living through is inconceivable to many.

  • Comment number 55.

    #52

    Quite clever that, singie. Perhaps your case is a good example of an exception to the rule, with you having resisted the educational ladder system.

    mim

  • Comment number 56.

    tabblenabble01 #53.

    "Might you be wrong about the report card conjecture too?"

    anything is possible.

    "..a member of a non-white ... a member of the majority white group.."

    I'm kinda colour-blind, if you see what I mean..

  • Comment number 57.

    #56 cont'd.

    "..it may well be to your advantage.."

    consider this: might not the 'seeking advantage' be disadvantageous?

  • Comment number 58.

    49. At 12:20pm on 13 Oct 2010, jr4412 wrote:

    Difference, Equalities legislation, and fairness Here's a healthy
    exercise:

    Can you think of any minority group(s) which still make much of how badly they were treated over half a century ago and longer? There was a Supreme Court judgement in the UK about this in the context of Faith Schools and race not long ago, covered by Newsnight. The objective of most fair minded people is to treat all people equally before the law, and to get the law right. Alas, it's an imperfect world.

    Law and science is extremely hard work when done properly, and a day does not go by when professionals in both fields have to operate with respect to laws on our statute books. This includes the BBC moderators, editors and bloggers (by which I mean BBC journalists). The result is that what we see and what is actually the case sometimes diverge in the interest, allegedly, of fairness and Social Justice. That does not mean that what is allegedly fair, is necessarily true however.

    Discrimination in favour of, or against, someone simply because of a Protected Characteristic is unjust because those characteristics are irrelevant. The basic idea behind the new Equality Act is to ensure that equality before the law is the case regardless of Protected Characteristics. This is quite subtle. It basically means that these Protected Characteristics should not prejudicially affect one's rights before the law, that's all. See 'The Original Position' (elsewhere known as the Phenomenological Reduction or suspension of the Natural Attitude, I suggest)..

  • Comment number 59.

    tn01 wrote

    'Demographic warfare and politics is a highly destructive business. The scale of what you are living through is inconceivable to many'

    ----------------------

    AiN'T that the truth.

    People would ordinarily be out on the streets protesting about this...but as one commentor on The Telegraphs blogsite noted:

    "The govt or ruling class have already studied the Ants and decided this is what society is about,The soldier ants ,the media, the police,,the broadcasters ,keep the worker ants in place ,be as serving and obedient. And so thats life ,we worker ants, maintain the lifestyles of the ruling ants.nothing more.nothing less.Most of the working ants got educated in europe and got rid of they ruling ants centuries ago,britain is the only country ,its ants are still serving its ruling ants."

  • Comment number 60.

    56. At 2:14pm on 13 Oct 2010, jr4412 wrote:

    "I'm kinda colour-blind, if you see what I mean."

    I do indeed. My concern is whether or not you do, and whether or not you can be, or even want to be, helped.

    True colour-blindness is genetic. The mating patterns of most humans shows that most humans are not colour-blind in any sense of that term.
    Neo-liberals tend to be delusional, probably in a vain effort to be more socially desirable. But to whom?

  • Comment number 61.

    A message to Mr Paxman: In the studio debate after the piece on tuition fees, Mr Paxman picked up one A level student for challenging another A level student (proposing to study medicine) for the former asserting a belief, contrasting that with the other A level student's assertion of what she said her friends would allegedly do. Why was what she asserted not also just a belief? Not only that, but what she was reporting was hearsay was it not?

    A belief is an intensional idiom of propositional attitude, a psychological verb. Newsnight tends to traffic in little other than these non-truth functional idioms, at the expense of all else. This is why it is best regarded as lightish entertainment.

  • Comment number 62.

    tabblenabble01 #58.

    "Can you think of any minority group(s) which still make much of how badly they were treated over half a century ago and longer?"

    yes I can, but moderation (and a distinct lack of interest) prevent me from commenting freely, hint: they were the first (on record) to mutilate the genitals of their infants.

    "The objective of most fair minded people is to treat all people equally before the law, and to get the law right. Alas, it's an imperfect world. Law ... is extremely hard work when done properly.."

    agree. as you say, it's an imperfect world and the nature of our law enforcement is as imperfect as the laws which make us unequal, the following lyrics make my point nicely:

    "A street kid gets arrested, gonna do some time
    He got out three years from now just to commit more crime
    A businessman is caught with 24 kilos
    He’s out on bail and out of jail
    And that’s the way it goes"
    http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/white-lines-don%27t-don%27t-do-it-lyrics-grandmaster-flash/66cf1b7be647cb5f48256d8a002f62fa

    I see from your #58 that your heart is probably in the right place but, unlike you, I've no faith left when it comes to groups of humans or their institutions (must be my age ;)).

  • Comment number 63.

    AND THE RULE OF LAW RARELY APPLIES TO THE RULING ANTS (#59)

    They buy agreeable 'justice' just as they are funded by activities based on 'convenient truth'.

    Nick'll fix it.

    Lest we forget: those soldier ants are heroes to a Neuter.

  • Comment number 64.

  • Comment number 65.

    #63

    Neutter/nutter or not, would any of you, if you had a young granddaughter, tell her exactly what 'the ants' are getting up to? Who knows, some of you would probably consider doing it to her?

  • Comment number 66.

    "62. At 4:20pm on 13 Oct 2010, jr4412 wrote:
    tabblenabble01 #58.

    "Can you think of any minority group(s) which still make much of how badly they were treated over half a century ago and longer?"

    yes I can, but moderation (and a distinct lack of interest) prevent me from commenting freely, hint: they were the first (on record) to mutilate the genitals of their infants."

    Now. Stand back from that for a moment and think. Why should you or anyone else ever fear stating any such thing? What could possibly be deemed wrong about saying or writing such a thing? This is precisely what I am drawing your attention to. I am asking you to rationally consider to what extent this has been contrived, to what end, and at what cost? This is a CER (Conditional Emotional Response) - a standard laboratory operant technique used to establish conditioned fear, and suppress behaviour. In fact, it is an approach-withdrawal conflict state
    (anxiety) used to assay the clinical efficacy of benzodiazepines, and other behaviour disinhibitors like alcohol.

  • Comment number 67.

    tabblenabble01 #66.

    where did you get "..fear stating any such thing" from?

    jaded, cynical more like.

    "I am asking you to rationally consider to what extent this has been contrived, to what end, and at what cost?"

    I have, at great length, and as a result am mostly done with people. for all I care, the sooner homo sapiens (!!) becomes extinct, the better. (for instance, earlier today I saw yet another item on the BBC News (South Today) where they showed young, principled people protesting peacefully against an arms manufacturer in Brighton being treated like criminals and enemies of the state -- frankly, that's 'our' world? you're all welcome to it)

  • Comment number 68.


    "67. At 8:08pm on 13 Oct 2010, jr4412 wrote:

    I have, at great length, and as a result am mostly done with people. for all I care, the sooner homo sapiens (!!) becomes extinct, the better."

    A lot of people feel like that. What I'm suggesting is that if one perseveres and looks past appearances one can see something interesting which helps one get over the cynicism and see the politics. So bear with me.

 

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