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Monday 6 September 2010

Lucy Rodgers | 11:44 UK time, Monday, 6 September 2010

Here's what is coming up in tonight's programme:

Home Secretary Theresa May today told Parliament it was "right" for the police to say they would examine any new evidence in the News of the World phone hacking case and the government would "await the outcome" of any further action.

Responding to an urgent question from Labour MP Tom Watson, she said the Metropolitan Police had indicated that "if there was further evidence, they would look at it".

Matt Prodger will be bringing us the latest on the story tonight.

MPs are to begin debating plans for a referendum on changing the way MPs are elected, as the Commons resumes business after the summer recess. They will debate a bill paving the way for a referendum on 5 May 2011 on changing to an alternative vote system.

The Tories oppose AV and some say the date will affect turnouts across the UK - it coincides with devolved elections. And although Labour back the poll, they have threatened to oppose the bill over proposals to change constituency sizes.

Tonight our Political editor Michael Crick will be explaining what AV is and where it might lead.

And we have a film from Peter Marshall about Pope Benedict XVI ahead of his UK visit later this month. Will the way he deals with paedophile priests be the measure by which his papacy is judged?

As a Cardinal Ratzinger held responsibility from 2001 for investigating the sexual abuse of minors by priests, so why did inquiries into serious abuse cases involving the former Archbishop of Vienna, the late Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer, and Father Marcial Maciel, the Mexican founder of the conservative order the Legionaries of Christ, run aground?

Jeremy is back in the presenter's chair - do join him at 2230 on BBC
Two.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From earlier:
Plans for a referendum on changing the way MPs are elected will take centre stage when the House of Commons resumes business today after the summer recess.

MPs will debating a bill paving the way for a referendum on 5 May next year on changing to an alternative vote (AV) system.

The commitment to hold a referendum on replacing the current first-past-the-post electoral system with AV was a key part of the coalition deal signed by the Conservatives and Lib Dems in May.

But many Tory MPs oppose AV and some say the date will affect turnouts across the UK as it coincides with devolved elections. And although Labour backs the referendum, it has threatened to oppose the bill over proposals to change constituency sizes.

We'll have the latest on the debate later.

We also have a film from Peter Marshall looking ahead to the Pope's UK visit later this month.

Further details to come.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    NICK FIXED IT FOR HIMSELF

    I listened open mouthed when Nick, recently, denied the inexorable link between LibDems and PR.

    The AV compromise (aka stitch-up) is the first of many, as Dodgy Dave runs the inevitable rings round Ninny Nick.

    Nick is pure Greek tragedy. Personal need will wreck him on the Rocks of Haste. He sold out his voters and will ultimately sell out himself.

    Well - at least that makes him more human than the ones who 'succeed' under the Westminster ethos! (And he'll get a fat pension.)

  • Comment number 2.

    DURING THE PAPAL VISIT, WILL ANYONE BE MAKING A CITIZENS ARREST?

    In memory of Dave Allen:

    The obvious grounds I won't mention. Then there is not wearing a seat-belt. False advertising. Action likely to cause a breach of the peace.

    Does he need a visa?

  • Comment number 3.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7984221/Vicar-jailed-for-sham-marriages-scam.html
    :o( I feel really sorry for the poor vicar. So he didn't read the Banns out in Church, but how many people would really have taken any notice (how many even went to Church in the first place) of them even if they had been read out? It is disgusting that he has been jailed for 4 years.

  • Comment number 4.

    us citizens will be paying through the nose for policemen to *prevent* a citizen making an arrest.

    up to a possible £80M, it seems. Perhaps it would be cheaper just to give him a backhander of £20M NOT to come? He could start work on a new palace with that, demonstrating yet again the Catholic Churches devotion to the poor and needy in the world.

  • Comment number 5.

    at last at last...Jeremy's back so NN is back, a lot to get his teeth into, the Coulson affair, the coalition rumours, the Labour leadership, the cricket fiasco.....and we haven't even mentioned Rooney...

  • Comment number 6.

    Lib-dems want PR. They don't want AV, that actually harms them.
    The Tories want AV, as do Labour, because it tends to benefit the larger parties.
    The Tories do not want PR, although Labour seem balanced on it.
    The Lib-Dems are noted for wanting voting reform, and fought the election for PR.
    The Tories are now saying they will gerrymander the boundaries, that will mainly harm the Lib-Dems to the Tories advantage, and added this to the referendum bill.
    The Lib-Dims do not want AV, nor do they want the boundary changes.

    soooo - the Lib-Dims are now supporting an electoral change Bill, even though they OPPOSE EVERYTHING IN IT, because in some wierd way they feel the need to be supporting electoral change? And presumably they think the voters are so stupid they haven't been following this, and will have a tizzy if the Lib-Dims oppose this attempted electoral coup by the Tories? Or perhaps it could be that Clegg himself is actually *really* opposed to PR, but cannot say that in Public (or to his Party), so he has ordered his lieutenants to pretend PR doesn't exist, and the only choice is between the satus quo, or something worse (the tory reforms). But the "something worse" is being sold to his less-intelligent Party workers as "something better". After all, "change is change is change", right? Gotta be good!

    did i miss anything?

  • Comment number 7.

    #3: lolz, very amusing mistress.

    but i can tell you are actually shocked and horrified at this scam of men-trafficking, terrified and helpless African men kidnapped and forced to marry East-European women here in the UK!

    you can't fool *me* with your tak of "Banns"! :)

  • Comment number 8.

    :o) Can't wait to see Jeremy back on air tonight!!!!!!

  • Comment number 9.

    Many of our current problems with the electoral system can, I suggest, be traced back to what Disraeli began in the mid nineteenth century when the franchise was initially extended in order (he hoped), to increase the Conservative Party's number of seats. To see the true nature of the truly cynical nature of the problem of extending the franchise one has to be mindful of what it leads to, i.e to anarchism (which has always been the true agenda of the Conservative Party) in that it is conducive to free-trade. This, however, is spun as freedom and democracy. In outcome, it is clearly a means of eroding/subverting state power. To see just how perfidious this has been over the last 150 years or so, one should carefully read the infamous Northcote-Trevelyan Report:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northcote-Trevelyan_Report

    which it is widely said revolutionised the British Civil Service.

    It did, but not as many think. If one looks very closely at this report and what it led to (The Civil Service Commission etc), one may be able to see how it did exactly the opposite. I suggest that it started the rot we see in bold relief today. For for reasons one must look, I believe, to what has been fully explained elsewhere in this blog in the past as Debtjuggler has now said several times..

    It is also worth looking up the two authors of this famous document, as well as their 'achievements' elsewhere - in case one has doubts, forget the Ukrainian forced famine of the 30s - and bear in mind that this language has always been urbane, but deceptive.

    One needs to be prepared to do quite a bit of double-think to be able to see this.

  • Comment number 10.

    #5

    I can't somehow see Jeremy getting his teeth into Rooney, stevie

  • Comment number 11.

    #113

    Are you sure, 'housey', that you don't hold a vendetta against women that challenge you intellectually which you cannot cope with?

  • Comment number 12.

  • Comment number 13.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 14.

    I this going to be a proper programme about proper news and current affairs? Or are you going to broadcast a load of malicious allegations, rumours, innuendo and black propaganda?

  • Comment number 15.

  • Comment number 16.

    #9: tabbernaccle, "...anarchism (which has always been the true agenda of the Conservative Party)"


    ROTFLMAO :D :D :D



    btw, your link is entirely pointless. Either give the direct link to the article, or to a discussion on the article and what it meant.

    and now we see we cna also add "anti-democratic" to your list of attributes:

    "so, so far you [tabbernaccle] have argued against women's rights, against diversity, apparently for anti-semitism, you call yourself a "witch-finder", and you defend the Catholic Church about its record of child-abuse."

    glad we have you here to sort us out, and tell us where we are going wrong. I'm sure.

  • Comment number 17.

    #14

    May I ask what you consider 'proper news', MaggieL?

  • Comment number 18.

    #11 mim: *completely* sure.

  • Comment number 19.

    YOU CAN TELL A COMPREHENSIVE BOY A MILE AWAY (#6)

    By George Mork - you painted right round behind the arras! A rollocking read.

    See you at the Big Meet - the anticipation's mutual.

  • Comment number 20.

    #14: maggie,

    "Or are you going to broadcast a load of malicious allegations, rumours, innuendo and black propaganda?"

    well, i suppose they don't *HAVE* to interview politicians for their opinions, but it would be a slimmer program if so.


    btw, if you want uncritical reportage, you could always watch Sky, CNN etc.

  • Comment number 21.

    #114

    Look, I already have a degree and rather than following a prescribed course, I prefer to learn as I go along about a different things, like music, art, literature, philosophy, politics, etc., and from a variety of sources, including to a large extent Paxo. As far as I'm aware there isn't an MA course that would satisfy my thirst for knowledge i'n all those fields.

    With regard to me contributing to anything, I'm doing my best, and would you believe, I seem to have quite a few followers.

    I really do not think you should bother at all with my wellbeing. I'm happy the way my life's progressing. 'Too many cooks spoil the broth'.

  • Comment number 22.

  • Comment number 23.

    ... Tony Blair "I feel a great urge to participate in my country's political life."

    ...in which he said he saw himself as "basically a public service guy" and added: "If the right job came up, I'd definitely do it." ...

    just when we begin to wind down his last wars he wants to come back?
    i guess iran will be calling up reservists then?

  • Comment number 24.

    Of course the current Pope's going to be judged on his cover-up of paedophiles within the Catholic Church.....when he found out about them, he didn't do anything about it! Glad I'm not a subscriber :p

    I also see that Geoffrey Robertson QC is releasing "The Case of the Pope: Vatican Accountability for Human Rights Abuse," later this week too.

  • Comment number 25.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 26.

  • Comment number 27.

    DEAR HOME SECRETARY 'KITTEN SHOES' WHAT IS YOUR MEQ?

    MEQ - Male Empathy Quotient.

    Maleness (Testosterone, nihilism, violence, anti-authority etc) are a mystery to the female of the species. Likewise, out-of-work bricklayers do not make realistic Bunny Girls. WE DO THE BAD STUFF.

    Women are also rubbish at graffiti, arson, hooliganism and criminal damage. (Oh - WE are also a damned sight better at pare too.) WE ARE DIFFERENT! What IS the matter with this country?

  • Comment number 28.

    #27

    Singie, I've just 'suffered' a fit of laughter with you remarks about what rubbish the female kind is at not doing and how useless male bricklayers are once it comes down to REALITY.

    So, in effect, according to your text, we, females, are superior to you, guys.

    mim

  • Comment number 29.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 30.

    "24. At 6:18pm on 06 Sep 2010, Mistress76uk wrote:
    Of course the current Pope's going to be judged on his cover-up of paedophiles within the Catholic Church.....when he found out about them, he didn't do anything about it! "

    First, this is political, and interfaith mischief making. Second, the alleged cases are old, and at the time, allegations such as these were handled by different systems of discipline just as cases in the military are. Think of Church Law, Military Law and Civil Law. In the past, different authorities would handle matters like this by their own procedures. Bringing criminal charges many years after the alleged facts is also very difficult as it is difficult to prove without a confession, and even where these are provided there may be a form of plea bargaining. This is not the same as a cover-up.

    From another perspective altogether, these days we see all sorts of ethnocentric or egocentric errors being committed by journalists and the public, and correcting people just is no longer acceptable. An example is a recent programme on 'Stolen Brides'. Anyone who watched this programme carefully would have appreciated that the journalists making the programme were told by women that the journalists just did not understand the local culture.

    One has to try to understand how matters are handled within a culture or one ends up arrogantly imposing one's own standards and ways upon alien culture, which is imperialism.

    28. At 7:33pm on 06 Sep 2010, mimpromptu wrote:

    "So, in effect, according to your text, we, females, are superior to you, guys."

    That would be fine if it were not for the statistics which have been frequently referenced in the media and elsewhere. The problem surely, is that every time such published facts are pointed out as refutation of such a statement, they are either ignored, or, the person pointing out the facts is personally attacked. Is that rational?

  • Comment number 31.

    My #29 was a link to a site which has an article claiming that collective local authorities spent 70 million quid on agency social workers. It is said that 1 in 10 of UK social workers are now agency staff, at over 14k extra each pa than council rates, I bet very little of it gets back to agency workers themselves.

    Perhaps the trend towards agencies is just part of the Corporate Nazi ideology which appears to have taken root in the collective government subconscious. Some people would now appear to now prefer to be traded likes slaves whilst exploited by employment agencies. An Employment Agency's sole purpose is to exploit the workforce in general, whilst providing a welfare state for the stock market parasites intent on privatising all public services.

  • Comment number 32.

    #30

    tb01

    You and your statistics, whoever and wherever you are. Do you have any sense of humour? Not for a minute, for example, would I consider myself to be superior to Paxo or, let's say, Auguste Rodin, you know the one who chiselled out of stone 'The Thinker', 'The Kiss' or 'The Burghers of Calais', one version of which stands right by the Houses of Parliament in Westminster.

    I suspect I'm better than Jeremy at ice-skating while I'm sure he's far superior than me not only at English but at quite a few other things as well.

  • Comment number 33.

    Oh Tabblenabble @#30 - you really expect anyone to belive the rubbish you peddle?

    Quote:
    "In 2001, while he was a cardinal, he issued a secret Vatican edict to Catholic bishops all over the world, instructing them to put the Church's interests ahead of child safety.

    The document recommended that rather than reporting sexual abuse to the relevant legal authorities, bishops should encourage the victim, witnesses and perpetrator not to talk about it. And, to keep victims quiet, it threatened that if they repeat the allegations they would be excommunicated."

    Source: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23369148-pope-led-cover-up-of-child-abuse-by-priests.do

    Here is concrete evidence that the Catholic Church DID cover up paedophilia. Why isn't the Pope being put on trial?

  • Comment number 34.

    33. At 9:23pm on 06 Sep 2010, Mistress76uk wrote:

    "Here is concrete evidence that the Catholic Church DID cover up paedophilia. Why isn't the Pope being put on trial?"

    Perhaps it's because newspaper reports and TV programmes made by journalists don't constitute "concrete evidence" in the responsible world only with the uncritical readers of the likes of HELLO and OK etc?
    The quality of investigative journalism IS getting extremely poor these days, but no doubt that doesn't matter if one is prepared to treat anything that one is told by the media as 'evidence'?

    Some call that 'trial by media' and disregard it, as they should. But what do those elitists know eh? Power to the rabble.

  • Comment number 35.

    Look up the dates of the Industrial Revolution and its consequences in mid C19th Britain and how it was not until the turn of the C20th that labour reforms began to curb the excess of economic anarchism (i.e when laws were not almost exclusively written in order to favour those exploiting labour for profit). Sadly, we have been seeing a regression over the past forty years or so. People today do not know what they are voting for even though they can see the consequences.

    31. At 9:16pm on 06 Sep 2010, brossen99 wrote:

    "Perhaps the trend towards agencies is just part of the Corporate Nazi ideology which appears to have taken root in the collective government subconscious."

    Or maybe the term 'nazi' was used by Conservatives like Churchill in order to give socialism a bad name? I reckon Debtjuggler etc are right in that the more we cite Hitler and Stalin as bad guys, the more likely we are to undermine our own welfare state and our care for each other.

    In doing that we are more likely to let the people you refer to as corporate nazis make money out of the vulnerable. To stop that, we have to collectively cease vilifying the major historical movements of socialism in Germany and the USSR in the first part of the C20th. The alternative, I fear, is that prices will just continue to go up (inflation), and most people's standard of living will just keep falling as the unscrupulous profit from the absence of effective state regulation.

  • Comment number 36.

    #30

    What do you mean by 'ethnocentric & egocentric errors', tb01? Are you a qualified and properly established Judge? Or are playing 'god'?

    It sounds to me like in this text you're trying to 'work out' how you may never get caught if you are into rather untoward activities. They may not have existed years ago but I'm quite positive, with modern technology and all that, that everything is on record. Sel-control, self-control, that's what's needed.

  • Comment number 37.

    In mid-May I posted the effects that PR would have had on the 6th May results:-

    MPs by Proportional Representation (actual by FPTP):-

    Con 234 (306) a loss of 72 MPs; LibDem 149 (57) a gain of 92 MPs;
    Lab 188 (258) a loss of 70 MPs; 1.5 million ‘wasted’ votes would also have given:
    UKIP 20(0) gain 20 MPs; BNP 12(0); gain 12 MPs; English Dems 1(0); gain 1 MP.

    It is clear why Lib-Dems favoured PR and others do not although the above proportions could not be assumed for any future elections (either with or without the Alliance being formalised).

    It could be assumed that the ‘radical’ parties with manifestos that aim to give more consideration to English electors would do even better, as the stigma of a ‘wasted vote’ would be removed under PR, and possibly under AV. However the effects of any form of AV that gave a second choice option could not be predicted as there is no way of knowing how many voters would use their Second Choice to back another of the Big 3 parties, and how many would use it to favour a more radical option.

    The redistribution of boundaries and proposed reduction in overall numbers of MPs would also be unpredictable at this stage. My guess would be that no changes will result due to arguments within the Alliance and with the Labour opposition over allegations of gerimandering.

    However, perhaps this coming ‘winter of discontent’ may provoke us to take our protests to the streets rather than attempt to achieve reform-by-blogging.

  • Comment number 38.

    "33. At 9:23pm on 06 Sep 2010, Mistress76uk wrote:
    Oh Tabblenabble @#30 - you really expect anyone to belive the rubbish you peddle?"

    Only people who still believe in communitarianism and who are sick and tired of seeing any form of communal social bonding vilified by libertarians who have traditionally seen the Church (be it catholic, Islamic or family) as their enemy for the anti-usury message it preached. Best not to have too many people hearing clerics warn of the trouble one gets into through sex, drugs, and debt, as that's rather bad for some people's business?

    Still, you keep preaching your wisdom - it's a free-market, although,.
    still no females in the Catholic or Islamic clergy you'll note. Now, why IS that?

    Meanwhile, note that Islamabad is the home of crooked cricket, and the Pope, he's German isn't he? Mr Netanyahu and his Cabinet aren't budging on those Settlements across the way from the land of The Philistines ruled by Hamas either. Now is there ANY conceivable connection one wonders? Of course not, that would be just too coincidental wouldn't it?.

  • Comment number 39.

    RUNNING COMMENTARY - 'WHOLE NEW MEANING'

    Nick Robinson running with the runners (and the team running backwards?)

    A new high in edgy fun news - a new low in gravitas.

  • Comment number 40.

    WHY NO MENTION OF THE PRIME MOVER IN PAPAL CHOICE?

    You can't seriously say 'Ratzinger should have been prevented from being Pope' - GOD CHOSE HIM! And you sure as Hell can't question the workings of an ineffable God.

    Get unreal!



  • Comment number 41.

    @ Tabblenabble #38 - Yawn. Is religion even relevant (at least in the Western world) these days? Do I care if there are any females in the Islamic or Catholic clergy? No. I'm not a subscriber. Cricket itself has become a crooked game - Islamabad isn't the only home of crooked cricket :p

    :o) Fabulous to see Jeremy back on air at last and on top form too - particularly on the AV vote debate with Jenkin & the Lib Dem guy plus his debate with Tony Benn & Mehdi Hassan on socialism.

    Excellent reports by Peter Marshall on the Catholic Church and Michael on the AV system.

  • Comment number 42.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 43.

    NICK'S LAND OF MAKE-BELIEVE

    Bernard Jenkin declared that a need to address the deficit brought the Coalition together. Oh dear. Someone ought to tell him it was really Nick and Dave, on a quest for maximum personal power and glory, salvaging what they could from the election wreckage.

  • Comment number 44.

    NOT IMPRESSED BY THE PAXMAN BELLOW

    Being a gentleman of advanced years, Tony Benn missed Mr Paxman's utterance of 'Beverage'. I feel Mr Paxman let himself down in the nature of his repeat at high volume - it was disrespectful. Not what we expect from a cultured man.

  • Comment number 45.

    #44

    Oh singie, I'm hardly ever impressed with your posts which are, err, most of the time, well, full of disrespect, not to mention all the other 'activities' which you seem so proud of.

  • Comment number 46.

    Mistress76uk

    And Michael Crick made me laugh with something he'd said. In fact, I'm still giggling. Team work at it's best.

    mim

  • Comment number 47.

    #46.
    It's should be spelt differently. It's the fault of technology this time.

  • Comment number 48.

    41. At 11:33pm on 06 Sep 2010, Mistress76uk wrote:

    "Yawn. Is religion even relevant (at least in the Western world) these days?"

    It's clearly way past your bed-time, but as you ask, yes, there are lots of Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and Jewish people in the Western world today to name just a few religions, and many see their religions as a means whereby they can share common values which amount to more than squalid self-interest, which has always been the basic function of religion - didn't you know? Did you seriously think it was all about the supernatural or something as equally child-like such as worshipping Jeremy Paxman?

  • Comment number 49.

    #48

    sharing 'common values' with you? is it it, instead? no wonder your name has 0 in it. what's square of 0? 0

  • Comment number 50.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 51.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 52.

    This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

  • Comment number 53.

    My 50, 51 & 52 must have been either controversial or upsetting, were they? Any ideas?

  • Comment number 54.

    "40. At 11:29pm on 06 Sep 2010, barriesingleton wrote:
    WHY NO MENTION OF THE PRIME MOVER IN PAPAL CHOICE?

    You can't seriously say 'Ratzinger should have been prevented from being Pope' - GOD CHOSE HIM! And you sure as Hell can't question the workings of an ineffable God. "

    I think you will find that God (and thus his envoy) was created in Israel about 5000 years ago by some people who needed a bonding agent, and thus Israelis were created in his image. The problematic existence of other peoples was explained by designating them as Godless, and thus not human. Only God's chosen people had souls and minds. This was essentially what being 'chosen' meant. It excused if not demanded other people being treated badly, like animals in fact. Hence other people had to change this religion.

    Many of the Puritans who took the Old testament very literally went to America in the 1600s after the Civil War (some from Holland too). I suggest this may be why we now put self-centred celebrity culture before all else in our Western culture. It's clearly subversive if not more than a little Satanic, for less than a century ago, the eponymous Mrs Worthington wouldn't have put her daughter on the stage as it was then seen to be little better than prostitution. Today of course, that's all changed as it can be very highly paid, and pretence/lying has become a much revered art form with many a young girl and boy now craving to be professional liars. They're given awards for excelling too, on top of being highly paid!

    Is anyone recalling the head rotating scene of Regan in 'The Exorcist'
    (a 70s update to Noel Coward)?

  • Comment number 55.

    @Tabblenabble #48,

    "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet"
    -Napoleon Bonaparte

  • Comment number 56.

    Fractional Reserve Banking :-

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-pappalardo/gold-silver-trading-bigge_b_706594.html

    You heard it hear first
    a while ago.

  • Comment number 57.

    Minpromptu asks what I consider 'proper' news.

    To repeat ad nauseam that allegations of involvement with phone-tapping have been made against Coulson is not news.

    To say that concrete evidence has been produced that Coulson was involved in phone-tapping would be news. -(If it was true, which it is not.)

  • Comment number 58.

    #55

    That's quite a good answer, Mistress76uk, but there might be a conflict there for tb01 with a strong likelihood he associatetes himself with the little emperor.

  • Comment number 59.

    Singie

    It looks like Jeremy took heed of your fierce battle against alcohol as he finished last night's programme talking of a nightcup of ovaltine.

  • Comment number 60.

    #54

    No, I have not seen the rotating head i'n 'the Exorcist' and do not intend to waste my time seeing it i'n the future.

  • Comment number 61.

    #57

    How do you know it wasn't true? Do you have access to this sort of info?

  • Comment number 62.

    61
    If there was concrete evidence I've no doubt we would have been told about it. It would therefore be untrue to say that there is concrete evidence when nobody is able to produce any.

  • Comment number 63.

    54

    as proclus has demonstrated theology was a way to popularise in memorable way [in the days before printing] the idea of metaphysics to the masses.

    there were narratives before the bible like the Wars of Jehovah which yes does have the same purpose as star wars. It takes the impassive metaphysics and turns it into what is called gnostic dualism so the metaphysics of good and bad [the absence of good] when dramatised becomes the gnostic dualist good and evil [or an 'opposing force'].

    as to why it took that format that has to do with the art of mnemonics [see Art of Memory by Francis Yates] or even http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_memory.
    there was an ancient historical tradition of creating narratives [or dramatising] as vehicles for preserving knowledge [the original purpose of fiction] so the whole of the Odyssey can be hung upon the skeleton of Platos divided line etc.

    This memory art was common currency then but it died out not just with the catholic churches execution of Giordano Bruno but with the advance of printing. Today these skills are hardly known so people have no idea of the underlying structure of metaphysics their divine 'fiction' [in the best sense of that word] has nor the method of mnemonics and ratios on which they were crafted.

    e.g in metaphysice we talk of relations of common terms in a hierarchy. pretty abstract. So through this art of ratios that can be dramatised as a family with a father and mother children uncles aunts etc [the bible is about sons of this and that and their adventures] or it become the whole pantheon of greek gods. the relations are constant the terms vary so if one had been initiated into this art [initiation was an important rite] you could move from theology to metaphysics and vica versa and identify the various ratios with ease.

    who today does not really think god is an old man in the sky? how ludicrous is that?

    do we need the fictions today? given the way metaphysics is derided and ignored probably they still serve a function. People yearn for 'good' stories.

    in an echo of divine fictions that carried knowledge in a memorable way we have the modern hollywood and Tv fictions that usually are empty of meaning other than as vehicles of author aggrandisement and enrichment. this emptiness of content in modern fiction is the the '57 channels and nothing on' phenomenon. Who wants to be a Homer when they can be a celebrity?


    Not all religions are based on gnostic dualist books. If all the bibles/koran etc were burnt it would be impossible to recreate them because they are relative to the age. Non book religions don't have this problem.

    Metaphysics can always be recreated because it comes from the very structure of how language is used. So metaphysics can create new divine 'fictions' endlessly. Such as dionysus [now called pseudo] who presented a fiction based on neoplatonism as christian and which for 1400 years was the basis of all serious christian thinking until Rome finally accepted it was a 'forgery'.

    So theology has a valid place in the universe as long as one has a metaphysics and understands the art of memory and ratios in dramatisation. Kids need lightsabers.

  • Comment number 64.

    pope ratzinger, if last night's NN report was accurate, then you have my apologies for earlier comments by me regarding your approach to the question of pedophilia in the church.

    when it is clear pedophilia is so deeply entrenched within your church, there is not much a mere single cardinal could have done.

    --------

    #12: flicks, i intend to get round to following your links: i expect they are of very good quality.

    -------

    #27/#28 - i have known many women who were good at brick-laying DIY etc - granted, they were Danes and other Skandi. I've also known a few girls who ARE good at "graffiti, arson, hooliganism and criminal damage" - and here in the UK their numbers are increasing, and will probably increase more as this Govt continues to destroy the Welfare State.

    so there we have it - the Tories are destroying the UK to create a more egalitarian and post-gender Society. I bet few Tory back-benchers realised that was the plan all along!

  • Comment number 65.

    "60. At 11:29am on 07 Sep 2010, mimpromptu wrote:
    #54

    No, I have not seen the rotating head i'n 'the Exorcist' and do not intend to waste my time seeing it i'n the future."

    I guess there are only so many hours in one's day?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-4f_NMUxcY

  • Comment number 66.

    what a shocking and revealing indictmenmt of the Catholic church and how well they worked the cover-up....you have to hand it to those guys as cover-ups go they were Mafioso standard and well done NN for putting it on, very good discussion with Benn and Co.....

  • Comment number 67.

    #30, rabblenabble:

    "[on Church pedophilia] One has to try to understand how matters are handled within a culture or one ends up arrogantly imposing one's own standards and ways upon alien culture, which is imperialism."

    ah yes, God forbid that the Church be prevented by civil authorities from abusing the children in its care, because that would be "imposing our standards" upon them.

    presumably you also think the Nazis should not have been tried for their crimes against humanity? And that we should not judge the US for whatever it does around the World, no matter how much destruction it creates.

    wouldn't want to be called "imperialists" for such criticism, would we?

    -------

    #31: brossen, i couldn't agree more. Have i already posted the link between growing Japanese Nationalism, Japanese work agencies, and the economic problems of neo-lib policies that tend towards warfare, written in the 80s?

    ----------

    #35. At 10:28pm on 06 Sep 2010, tabblenabble01 wrote:

    "Look up the dates of the Industrial Revolution and its consequences in mid C19th Britain and how it was not until the turn of the C20th that labour reforms began to curb the excess of economic anarchism (i.e when laws were not almost exclusively written in order to favour those exploiting labour for profit). Sadly, we have been seeing a regression over the past forty years or so. People today do not know what they are voting for even though they can see the consequences."

    --you begin to make sense - even though you are using terminology in rather questionable ways.

    an anarchist company would be a one run as an (equal share) capitalist partnership or cooperative, because without inheritable wealth/power, the workers themselves have control of the company. They have Free Speech within it to suggest improvements, and to organise the company together. The managers will be selected by the share-holders - who are the workers.

    ergo, an anarchist company sits four-square directly within the free market. This is "anarchic", because no one has control or power through inheritance, and everyone has a say (a democracy, in essence), but it is also "Social-Democracy", because it is the citizens who decide production etc, rather than the State. This would be the definition, although possibly without the "free market" aspect, that the majority of actual Anarchists would agree with.

    what *you* are talking about as "anarchist", is the bullying of the weak by the strong, a Hobbesian approach.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_nature


    so you are using "anarchist" in a VERY populist fashion, which is mucking up your arguments. Try "exploitative", or "elitist" instead - oh wait, you *are* an Elitist, right? Along with hating women and jews.

    poor you.

    Kropotkin's opinions are infinitely preferable to yours. Imho.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Kropotkin


    [rabblenabble]"Or maybe the term 'nazi' was used by Conservatives like Churchill in order to give socialism a bad name? I reckon Debtjuggler etc are right in that the more we cite Hitler and Stalin as bad guys, the more likely we are to undermine our own welfare state and our care for each other."

    ...or maybe it came because Hitler's party called themselves "National Socialists"? Bit like the irony of Osbourne being in the "Conservative" Party, whilst attempting to force through radical 'reforms' that amount to the destruction of the UK as an independent Sovereign Nation, instead becoming a mere colony of global Corporate mono-culture.

    still, what's in a name?

    but you are right, or more likely DJ is, the Tyrants are often invoked as 'demons', to try to hide the similarities in structures between then and now, and to weaken opposition.

    "In doing that we are more likely to let the people you refer to as corporate nazis make money out of the vulnerable. To stop that, **we have to collectively cease vilifying the major historical movements of socialism in Germany and the USSR in the first part of the C20th**. The alternative, I fear, is that prices will just continue to go up (inflation), and most people's standard of living will just keep falling as the unscrupulous profit from the absence of effective state regulation."

    REALLY?!?!?

    how very interesting.

    mim - "jj"?

    -------

    #44: paxo was embarrassed as well - i doubt that's the worst thing Old Benn has ever experienced during his political career however. :)


    --------------

    #62. At 12:12pm on 07 Sep 2010, MaggieL wrote:

    If there was concrete evidence I've no doubt we would have been told about it. It would therefore be untrue to say that there is concrete evidence when nobody is able to produce any.

    ROTFLMAO!! :D :D

    the Murdochracy was engaged in what can be described as "Blackmail-Gathering", is it REALLY so surprising that very few have come forward?

    is it also so common that the police do not tell the victims of a crime that has been investigated?

    is it acceptable in a modern democracy that such a blackmail gatherer should then become the CHIEF COMMUNICATIONS OFFICER for the Prime Minister, so clearly tying together this private media monopolist and a Govt beholden to it - let alone that Govt then deliberately attacking and undermining pretty much the only media opposition left against this private, for-profit media monopoly??

    this is OK?

  • Comment number 68.


    #54, tabbernacle01:

    "I think you will find that God (and thus his envoy) was created in Israel about 5000 years ago by some people who needed a bonding agent, and thus Israelis were created in his image. The problematic existence of other peoples was explained by designating them as Godless, and thus not human. Only God's chosen people had souls and minds. This was essentially what being 'chosen' meant. It excused if not demanded other people being treated badly, like animals in fact. Hence other people had to change this religion."

    how tabloid.

    "God" is a concept all around the world, along with "Goddess", and has meant *many* different things, even within the same groups. The concept of "God" that you refer to apparently was introduced by the returning exiles from Babylon, who picked up many bad ideas during their time there.

    the exising Isrealites at he time had some very different notions, again apparently including some Goddess worship as well.

    PLUS, rabbinical judaism hardly operates at that childish level, anymore than ALL 'christianity' follows Southern Baptist racism. See 'The Quakers' for instance.

    --------

    #63: phheeew - v good post! :)


    --------

    #65, tabbernacle: your dream date?

  • Comment number 69.

    67. At 4:21pm on 07 Sep 2010, Mindys_Housemate wrote:

    "so you are using "anarchist" in a VERY populist fashion, which is mucking up your arguments. Try "exploitative", or "elitist" instead"

    No, I'm using the term accurately, i.e as one who really does understand modern politics and the nature of government. You, on the other hand, don't understand these matters, nor do you appear to be willing to be instructed.

    I suggest you try to read the article which Debtjuggler looked up upon my suggestion (se Paul Mason's blog post 20) which he quoted from. I am teaching you something very important here and you need to make the effort to grasp that. What a lot of people believe to be true is in fact completely false and they believe that because of effective political propaganda. You need to take that on board. Liberal-Democratic/Social Democratic politics has been anarchistic since WWII and was pushed in that direction (by the USA) in order to thwart socialism during the Cold War and its aftermath, the 'war on terror' (morphed socialism).

    If you continue to be abusive/impudent, I won't bother responding.

  • Comment number 70.

    "If you continue to be abusive/impudent, I won't bother responding."

    music to my ears. Will you also stop posting?

  • Comment number 71.

    "70. At 10:01pm on 07 Sep 2010, Mindys_Housemate wrote:
    "If you continue to be abusive/impudent, I won't bother responding."

    music to my ears. Will you also stop posting?"

    You are now behaving very much like the person who posted here as 'thegangofone'. I suspect he didn't see what was wrong with his behaviour any more than Mimpromptu does. Let me try to spell your error out for you (whilst it a simple error, it is notoriously hard to rectify a sit is based on a false view of rationality).

    You sometimes say that you don't understand things, you even said elsewhere that you 'can't do the math' (hence my question "are you American"?). But, rather than go away and try to make sense of sentences/puzzles which clash with your present preconceptions, you take your assumption to be all absolutely true and just abuse those people who make you question your assumptions!

    Getting things right is not a battle of words, it's the product of hard empirical research and sound logical analysis of available evidence.
    Whatever one arrives as assumptions must be open to empirical revision, and that is what research is all about. I have been telling you what is currently known. You may not know this, Please try not to dash off a defiant response as that would just reinforce my current assessment of how you argumentatively behave.

    What I have tried to explain to you is worth trying to understand. It is worthwhile many tying to understand, as education across the Liberal-Democracies is in serious trouble because it has been demographically subverted. That in itself needs looking into carefully, but it is true.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/sep/07/education-graduation-oecd
    -university

 

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